nasn018 Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community CGarmouetcm Comeuaty + ROME Deven = Raf Dev Foam Featured 7 Getotte Ba ie Library. Check ot te Tatest download salle inthe Fle Library New Article { Product J Visostye | Sheer x Verte Tani Selection New Blog Entry (Gas Turbine inankur og nee Goose v Psv Discharging Temperature psn fey, ee, ete, tempera en Share thistopi I More PaoloPemi te Semi 12-004 A ‘Theisentropi nozzle model (se the stached Exc! ile wraeals) vallable in Prode Properties (ving of elie ales with itieal and two-phase flow with isentropic nozzle model HEM) calculates required area and estimates the discharging temperature in two sep, a isentropic fash to choked pressure and thon adiabatic flash to outlet pressure, according Prode ths rigorous method is applicable to both gas and gas liquid (HEM method) flows, "have tested this method for many’ years comparing results agains single isentropic and adiabatic Mash (vith specific ‘orretions) and the constant energy Dash (available in Pode Properties) and the results seem more accurate than the other tps Awww. cheresourees.cominvisionfopic16 104-psv-dscharging-temporature! atonasn018 arent Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community ‘options that Ihave investigated. "Thave been informed tat ditfrent software application (as Aspen Flarenct tlie similar procedures. ‘Since the determination of discharging temperature can have a lrgeimpatin plants design (selection of materials ex) and ‘ferent methods may prodoce very different estimates it would be interesting to know fa speifie method or procedare bas Deen discussed in standards, ‘aes anyone know ifsome standard (API et) da include a discussion sbout this specific top (determination of discharge temperature)? ‘Attached Files + Bebe sheresoroescominision/ndox php? ‘pp=coremodule-attachsstion-atachfatach_-5657) nozale.x Chtps woe heresres comin index pep ORR sda dite by PuoloPemi 0 September aosa 34340 AM. edo Sete s0i 9.9 AE Paolo 1 pose this last year on the subject. 1 read with interest recently various postings on tis site about whether a PSV should be modeled as senthalpisentropi ‘combination ofboth. Various people expressed various views and the concensus semed to be an entropic ash from inlet pressure to sonic velocity & pressure atthe Vena Cava, ie a aczle Then an isenthalpie lah ftom the VC to the vale outlet, Lite orn los inthe outlet du ofietion Seing a user of Aspent4¥SYS and Flarenet 1 id some comparison ran at various inet pressor, temps and MWs using 8 ‘combined flash andthe good old fashioned isenthalpie Nash (ie as control valve). In HYSYS assumed a perfet isentropic ‘ash with 99% of heat recovery the kinetic energy recovery 2006 summaryof results, a simple isenthalpic Mash gves ent temperatures 1-2% higher than the eomplex moe thigh presture drops across the valve this ea inerease to 5% ‘the complex mode! does pedit the throat temperature nicely which could impact on the choice of metallurgy bt this ‘dow tothe valve vendor surly. tn Aspen Fareet neing topo to copa the chaos in int ena fom tn tt gat rele tothe complex del wakes. The wo his options neoraged. “Theoptional isentropic eto n larnet vest wes tmp and should note ted cox gv inact vty selection, (sou oly eda entropic efeny of .005 0 match the complex mod In my onion eet ‘worth sng Posted Image Conclusion 1 agroe withthe thinking tata combined isentropic enthalpic models the absolute correct way to model a PSV, given the ‘ois availble this sponsible bat. toallextents and inthe real engineering world it doasnt make any diference. We ate talking tenths of degree diference in the outlet temps. ‘Given all the other errors in data prediction taht could occur when sting a PSV the old fashioned method of simulating as valve with an senthalpi Nash seems not too bed away tod it after ll a reply from JOe Wong was "The thermodynamic path that an engineer would keto conser subject to wat he realy wanted took t and how ‘conservative he would ike to design fo, I'you intended to derive low temperature limit, certainly you can not ignore the ‘isentropic path. However, rom back pressure aspet probably an pure isenthalpe path would be better. 1 donot disagree with you statement thediference may be minor in some wu (io: etn com/viewthcead hn? sid=2412188), an engineer shoud always kep in mind the thermodynamic path woul bea mix of both, imagine how this ‘mix affect thee design and proside necessary margin ia pateslr approach hasbeen taken tps Awww. cheresourees.cominvisionfopic16 104-psv-dscharging-temporature! 20snasn018 aoloPemi lsh Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community Justo corret you Farenet doesnot do the double flash method, its one or the other, {attach an excel spreadsheet showing the differences. laren Posted tmage [Attached Files + il eiups://srncheresources com invision index php? spp=cotekmodule=attach&seationsatachtattach_id=5691) PSV 035 - Ieenthalpic vs trople-als (http://w. cheresources.com /nvision index pp2appcorekmodule-attchsection~attachattach_ 18-5691) Ferg See soi oF ar emu thankyou forthe comment, "wrote this post to sof this specific top hasbeen disused in some standards (APT ete) {gree thatientropie nore model produces accurate results, from your description I gues the option to compensate forthe change in kinetic energy in Aspen Flarenet should be sim tothe Constant Energy Fash available in Prode Properties, Assi any years and compared the results aginst alternative formlation in my opinion results are easonably reliable (tls inthe eases which have teste. save tested tis model for The attached fle nora. see shove) includes litle VBA procedure which one can easly modify (Prode Properties exports a st of methods for solving temperature (or pressure) at specited enthalpy, entropy, volume and tempertute (r pressure) and t's easy to introduce variants, TThave not been able to compare Prode with your results since you do not provide compositions, it doesnt seem you make a iterative ealultion to detect the pressure for maximum fx (as the simple procedure in nozzle des) but just compare results, iterative procedures require to detect that pot which sol constant Prode asa specific operating uni (NOZZLE) which solves the entropic noze mode but I pefer the VBA code in nozzles which I ean easly adapt according my needs think’ avery eny to use procedure diel in Excel and I recommend this procedure forall rtcal application as supereritcal or two phase whore the HEM (Homogeneus Equibrium Model) is epplicable rode has another option to deal swith ses where HEEM isnot applicable or the usual applications simple formulations as AP for ga or vapor elie (base on integration of constant, dea 8) are much moresimple and yt give acura esl, doesn't make sense to run complex model except for purposes of comparing results, for example to discover that entering the el k (cp/e) calculated apni can produce wrong results in many cases, ited by aoloPemi 09 September 2042-1448 AML thanks forthe information 1, same as Fare nuf, agro with the fact that a combined isentropc/isenthalpic model isa better way to model a PSV. Of course, it should be noted that VC just ccuure in sharp edge orifice rather then nozzle and because flow restricting rea of SVs closer to a nozle than an orifice, then the PSV nozzle throat (ra point neat there) would be the transformation point from ISENTROPIC to ISENTHALPIC process while alow is passing throug the PSV In fact, the process from PSV inlet to mentioned point asa short and ftonless (the unor fiona os i ignored) passage i thermodynamicaly considered REVERSIBLE (ISNTROPIC) an from mentioned point to PSV outlet due to expansion process is considered ISENTHALPIC (ORREVERSIBLE), Anyway these fct should be considered to find PSV downstream temperature using any software. Indeed as far asi know theres no specific points discussion inthe standards such as API. inthis gard Fallh tps siwww.cneresourees. cominvisionfopici16 104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! sitosnasn018 Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community "ited by allah, 9g September 2012 04:45 AM. oloPemi Pot Soper ao ‘thanks fllah, indeed 1 wasn't abe to ind any specific information (about this opie) in APL codes While for nara gas miatures (C1 > 0:7) discharging temperature as caleulaed with adiabatic or neteopie adiabatic Nash can show litle variations (depending fom Cs properties) the same swat true for many ather Mud, consider for example the misture0.9 Water 0.1 Ammonia, ‘fT models PSV discharging this mixture at go Bar.@ 590K (vapor phase) get very different values for diacharging temperature) from a single adiabatic ash (486K) or isentropic+adiabate ash (428K) soit seems to me thatthe selection of oper method has importance, ‘Attached Files +B ups /wwwcheresources. spp=coteRmodule-atach&sestion-attachKattach_id5700) pevmodelpg (http://w. cheresouees.com/invsion index pp?appcore&modvle-attachtsection-attachBattach_fd-5700) BoASKE 5dowaluls svinvision index php? hemdoe ae op Speers oh Interesting discussion, Just to add my contribute: 14s farasTknow this specie pont isnot mentioned in API code 2) the eslts shown by Flar emf are not vali for Suds as water (and many others), for many Bids isentropic end ada path are VERY diferent as the resulting fal temperatures fractopems Fond agrees thanks forthe commen {gree about the different results of adiabatic, mixed (sentropicvadiabatie) and itentrople Nash, ‘that is tre for many fui, {attach two examples of simulation the first psywater jpg fora PSY discharging steam at s70 Bara and 700 K with model JAPWS 95 (incuded in Prode Properties) results are 558 K fr single adiabatic ash 373 Kor single isentropic Mash (with avery low ere in VLE oullet being 0.76 gas + 0.24 liquid) 482 K for med (isentropiesadibatie ash) note that stn Prod Properties he Extended Peng Robinson or another model I get similar rests. the second psvonygen.jng fora PSV discharging oxygen at 70 Bara ane 288 K with model Extended Peng Robinson svalable in Prode Properties, results are 265 Kfor ingle adiabati lash 90 K for single isentropic ash 200 K for mixed (entropic adiabatie sh) inabsolute values theres about 20% errr (265 K- 220 K) / 220 K from adiabatic and mited model (donot consider the single isntropie Nash) however from the point of view of metallurgists while 265 Kin most cases isan acceptable temperature, limiting value Kmaybea [Noe that se similar or higher differences with two-phase flow, 4s said the Hxce page novels is capable to modal rigorously (ecoptng theTimits of HEM model eli valves with wo- ase flow (with pure Mud and mixtures), {ean provide some additional test ease if someos is interested [Attached Files tps siwww.cneresourees. cominvisionfopici16 104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! 4n0snasn018 Pv Discharging Temperature Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community +B Citys wwwecheresoures.com/invision/index hp? anp-coremodule-atlachtseclion-alachtaltach_-5707) psvwater Jpg (http://w. cheresoures.eom/invsion index. php2ay otemodul stachQsction-attashttach_j + Citys wwe cheresoures.com/invision/index Shp? app=coremodule-atlachtseetion-atachfattach_ 15708) pSvOxyae (http://w. cheresources com /invsion index php?app-core&modulemattachtseetion-attachtattach, dived by PaoloPemi 05 September 2012-09346 AM. pe interesting information, ‘thank you att! oso Septet or seatpost Cn you provide some addtional information comparing the rigorous model against AP formula with idea and real ep/ev values? According some authors the seo eal ratio for orifice sizing an result in undersized orifcs, factorems odo Setembro A Sate, 4s suggested in API or gas streams [un the rgorous model when discharging (pt) conditions are in ei exon, «pYaluos may become very high i this area and integrating with constant cp (AP formation) ean produce unelable results {mn goneral with API formulation for gas te ideal cp/ev produces more rile results include Gee image povo7C2H609C4Hi0,pg) an example fora stream composed by 0:7 Ethane and 0 nButane,, model Soave Reick Kwong, "have defined the discharging conditions at 4o Bara, 248K (far from eitieal point in vapor region) rode Properties clealates these properties olor 47 compare this wave with hat calelated a 1 Bart ples = 13, the calculated areas are 23g em (with epfev =177) 2274 ema (with epfev= 139) ‘shen Iran the rigorous model ee the a ached fle) Eget required area = 2.64 m2 so the area ealeulted with real cp/cvis understated of about 10% setting the dscharzing conditions more cles tothe criscl point we wll observe increasing values for ep and epjev and possibly largor differences in values. there are many cases where API with real and ideal epfev and rigorous mode give diferent resus, in ll these eases tiie the values cleulated with rigorous model Attached F + (itp ww cheresoures.com/invision index php? sppecore&modulenattach§ionsatachtattach_ides735) psvo7CaH603C4H10jPR, (tps: cheresourcescomy/invsion/index.php?app=coretmodule-attachtseetion=attachtattach_id-5725) tps siwww.cneresourees. cominvisionfopici16 104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! sitosnasn018 Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community edited by PaoloPemi 8 September 20:2 04:6 PM, athensey Poss enter 04-09.) thanks, ‘very good information aff Pou Senbe sotto 4 Pact, Thin havea similar aes, Auid Acetylene, vapor phase (supercritical, discharging pressure 1000 peia temperature 1:0 F ould you verify the results with rigorous model? tea by staffel,o7 September 2012-0195 AM aoloPemi ‘a oF pe 2032-05328 {have converted Psa and Funits to Bara and K flow has been defined at 43 Kgs (15880 K/h) ‘the fist figure psvaceylene_Casetsjpg shows the results for your test ease asyou see due to te large values calulated for ep/cv (Pode Properties with Soave-Relich-Kwong mode calculates 29.46 for epand 1.69 for x) there alan dtferenc betweon the are clelated with real ep .09 cma and del 1.94 m2 the rigorous model caleulates a value of 2.39 m2. the area caeulted with eal epjev is understated of about 50% however observing the valu ofthe specie volume calculated at 4745 Bar (0.007 mg/g) we realize that its atl vapor phe, possibly’ some supersaturated stat, In my opinion a more corret test should considera stream with properties of vapor within the valve, to oblain thal condition withthe same pressure (1000 Psa or 68.94 Bara) we can increase the temperature fom 313 Ko 335 K (5.33 F) ‘the second figure psvaceslene_Casozajpg shows the results fr this test ase ‘the specific volume caleulated at 44.147 Bara 294 Kis that of vapor state (0.012 m/e) ‘Theresa quite large diference (about 30%) forthe values ealclated wih real ep/evand ideal eer ‘Also inthis case the area elelated with ideal epev (2.69 em) it close to that caleulted with rigorous model (2.67 ema) hile the atea calculated with real epev is undeestimated of about 30% Please note thatthe rigorous model permits to evaluate also the state ofthe Guid within the valve (ae the above notes) which ray be of importance n many cases [Attached Files + Bb haps jw cheresources.com/lnvision/index php? spp=coteimodule-attachtsection-atachtattach_id=5724) pevacetylene_Casean jpg, (eatp:/ ww. cheresourcesom/invsin index php? +B Oty wwwicheresoures.com/iavision/index Shp? spp=cotemodule=attachtsection-attachtattach_id (burps: fw. cheresourees.com/invsion/index pip?app= pevacetylene_Caseta jpg refined ite by PaoloPemi 8 September Pac, 1 donot recall having sen or head of these calculation method deals being discussed in any pubic standard tps siwww.cneresourees. cominvisionfopici16 104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! enosnasn018 fsobby strain swell Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community From my understanding of compressible flow where Mach or at less transonic flow, s achieved atthe end of the flow nore there wll be a corresponding shock wave atthe flow nozze ext. The classical approach tothis ifr the stagnation enthalpy (,) tobe the same just upeream ofthe discontinuity (2) and just downstream ofthe discontinuity (9), This is represented in the orm eevee seo Ib enthaly Ve velocity [sthis what you mean by “then adiabati Nash to outlet pressure"? Somehow, I think nt. “This approach sounds like what Flarenuf described, "In Aspen Flrenet selecting the option to compensate forthe change fa [ineie energy from inlet to outlet gives results loser to the complex model values, alta by atexman 09 September 2012 -06:41 AM. [you can program in VB or VBA then you ean wete your ovm program, You can automate by using HYSYS or Proll or Similar OOP simulators to perform the Nash esleultins, which I recommend. always pesfy lashing or two-phase ow valve sizing based on my own celcuations; I dont depend on vendor results, And I always perform adiabatic lashes to do the clelations. The itference from isentropic is abvays postive, giving conservative vale size, but not by much, HEM sa very complex procedure, and you should not use a spreadsheet for sing Get something hardcoded, compiled, and locked, {recommend the HEM method fr supercritical Mud rei, to. Where vendors have the eapabiity to eorreetly sie the valve, like vapor o quid, you should make them sponsible fr sbaing the vate, Dont take on any unwanted lability for you employer. ‘Asa general ule, Tabhor spreadsheets for any engincering calculation. No control whatsoever Regards, Bboy asl, ‘the information provided is very interesting and useful for psy design and rating, hank Bobby Stain, please review the results shown by Palo ‘the evaluation, comparation and discussion of resus ehould be the work of engineers if you have diffrent data please show it and well be pleased to comment aitedby per, 08 September 2012-12141 AM. This is VERY interesting thread! ‘may ada lite contribute, there isa paper "Proper rele-valve sizing requires equation mastery” Hydrocarbon Processing 201, where the authors discuss a method fr sizing pressure-elit valves erica low of gases or vapor) they evaluated the contribute of real gas specific heat ratio (n AP formalation) and eame othe concusion that "The real gas specific heat ratio already accounts forthe value of the compressibility factor and non- ideality thigh pressure oaditons. “Therefore, when the reals specifi heat ratios used inthe sizing euation, the compressibility factor i nt neessary. If te uses the real ga specific heat ratio in 1, the compressibility factor wl be aecounted for twee Ths may elt ‘The paper includes several numerical examples Inadequate elie valves, a5 addressed in I “Tho procedure is very simple and eosld be easly coded in Excel butt raquire simulator to calculate the propetios (asthe authors di) snd itis applesbe ta gases o vapors only, ‘by comparison the numeria solution of isentropic nozsle model discussed in ths thread (and presented as Exel page) is applicable to both gas and gas+liguid flows. tps sw. cneresourees. cominvisionfopic16104-psv-dscharging-tomperature! moaso fractopem: att! -oloPemi Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community ‘have that paper in my Bbrary, {Ihave alto compared the results withthe example included inthe ati, 10,000 kg/h of saturated n-hexane vapor (M = 86.18) ata rele pressure of 1807-38 kPa and a elif temperature of 474 K, he attached image psrnhexane jpg are three cases the third adopts the equation 7 proposed by authors, the rigorous procedure calculates an area of 5.55 ema the est with real epev (1.25) end av 0.65 gives an area of 4.58 em2 ‘the second with dal ep/ev (1.044) and 20.65 gives an eea of 4.90 cm2 the thi with eal pr (1.25) and 2 1.0 vee an aren of 5.68 mma (he author report for equation 7 value of 567 mma) {in this case the value ealealted with this method is very close to that calcalated wit rigorous method ‘mother eases tere ae ferences (upto 10-15%), see the attached example with nHexane at 27 Bara 500 K Attached Files +B Gitps/wwwecheresoures.com invision/index Shp? app=coredmodule=alach&eetion-attachtattach 22) pevnexa (hutp: ww. cheresourcescomy/invsion index php?app=core&medule=attachtseetion=attachtattach, +B Ghtps/wwwecheresoures com invision/index.ohp? app-coretmodule-atlachtsection-attachtaltach id Ps tachtsection-attachtattach_} (https. cheresourescom/invsion index pz Pao, ‘ould you share the Hxee page tized to solve the thee dif 1 wish to compare the resus fora range of values {attach the Excel page psveomparer ls this page permits to compare diferent proceres Discharging temperature (PSV outlet) 2)eaeulted with isentropic + adiabatic fash (the default in nozlexls) 2) calelated wits ediabate ash 5) ealelatd with isentropic ash Calelated Area 1) rigorous numerical solution of sentrope nzae 2) API formulation for gus and vapors, dal ep/ev 3) API formulation for gas and vapors, el ep/e¥ 4) AP formation for gas and vapors, eal p/w, r= at} he required properties ae calculated by Prod library, for personsl/acaemie se you ean dowload free-with ini ‘numberof components copy from www: prode.com {usa the unit conversion methods avalabein Prode Properties to conver from and to diferent units tps siwww.cneresourees. cominvisionfopici16 104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! anosnasn018 Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community tps siwww.cneresourees. cominvisionfopici16 104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! LEMCRO converts the diffrent values ented by user to the unite required by formulation (Pa.a,K.Kg/s) LEMCSO converts the calulated area (ema) tothe units required by the user Sew) rts che Molecular weight the formulations are those of APLand 180 standards, with diferent parameters as dscuused, {you ean eaily introduce variants you wish to compare different methods ‘the relative errors are cleulate a diference with rigorous solution ‘ood lek Palo [Attached Files + [Bl itps/ own cheresources.om/invision index pip? app =coremodule=attach&cetion=atachtattach_id=5748) psveompares.xlt (hs: fw. cheresourceseom/tnvsion index.php app=coreemdlenattachlsecti 5745) 49KB 605 dovalnde dite by PaoloPem, 1 September 2018-0834 AM. vat Pov Spee 2012-00 Pact, ‘thank you very much forthe Excel page. vl ce eptember 03-959 8 Pas, sccoting the authors the method resented in "Proper relie-valve sizing requires equation mastery” (ping for pas and vapors based on Zr = 1and real ep/ev) gives reull more acurae of std. procedure based on twa y, del ep, ‘yur Exel page shows that hiss true in most eases ‘very tefl red, thankyou all! | actem ed Sept 208-05 latesman, 1 would presume thatthe procedure in nozlexls solves the energy balance aeross the orifice (n= inlet, o= orifice) hinss/2"vin"2 = hova/atvo"2 ‘where os the speed of sou for choke low the solution istrative taking account the properties of real Mids a ealelated with EOS ‘Measuring Steam Dryness Using Pressure And Temperature Yale Yom Sarteby Guest CSN", 202018 Asien lare Ko Drum Tempers vate pee Nosh Dependence On Temperature get PY roe Temperature Of The Fue Gas sae Pere artonasn018 Pv Discharging Temperature - Relief Devices Forum - Cheresources.com Community {@Recip Compressor it Stage High Discharge Temperature And Noise ania onsep20%8 Sarindby Gane andy", 30 Ang208 ee tps sw. cheresourees.cominvisionfopic16104-psv-dscharging-tomporature! 1010