Yale University, School of Architecture

Rem Koolhaas
Author(s): Rem Koolhaas
Source: Perspecta, Vol. 37, Famous (2005), pp. 98-105
Published by: The MIT Press on behalf of Perspecta.
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PERSP_ECIA_37 YOU HAVE BEEN A VERY INFLUENTIAL waysand to continuously reevaluateourtrajectory.
FIGURE TO A WHOLE GENERATION OF ARCHITECTURAL Ontheotherhand,youcan choosetoignorethesitu-
PRACTITIONERS AND STUDENTS. HOW HAS BEING IN THAT ationor acceptit as a given,because at somepoint
POSITION AFFECTED YOUR OWN WORK? it reallymakesno difference whetheryouare part
RemKoolhaasIt is reallyimportant to distinguish ofthe firstor the secondwave ofdevelopment. To
a numberofaspectsofthis.To be so influential and be overlyconcerned aboutitwouldsimplybe a huge
knowthatyourideashavesuchan impactis a really wasteoftime.
hugeandmostly unwelcome burden.In a culturethat
is so acceleratedthereis oftenverylittledistinction WHEN YOU WERE A STUDENT AND A YOUNG ARCHITECT,
betweenthefirst andthesecondwavesin thedevel- WERE THERE FIGURES WHOM YOU MODELED YOURSELF
opment ofan idea.Thathas forcedus fora longtime AFTER OR AGAINST?
tobe incredibly strategicabouthowwe proceed,and That'sa veryinteresting Oneoftheperverse
question.
thereare basicallytwowaysthatyoucan approach consequences ofbeinginthespotlight offameis that
this.On theone hand,beingconfronted so rapidly ifyouwriteaboutsomeone,itis oftenperceivedas a
withan idea'sdegeneration hasoftenmotivated us to statement thatyoumodelyourself afterthatperson.
dothingsmorequickly. In a way,itis sadthatthereis Forthelongesttime,forinstance,peopleconfused
almostnodifference anymorebetweena freshitera- myinterest inWallaceHarrisonfora desiretobe like
tionanda debasediteration. Butitcanalsobe inspir- WallaceHarrison.
ingin termsofforcing us to go forward in different Buttherehavecertainly beenotherarchitectsI've

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admiredless overtly.Sometimes it'sbecauseoftheir conformto certainmodels.ButtheextratimeI took

work, butit'smoreoftenbecauseofthewaysinwhich wasextremely forme.
productive
theymanagedtoopenupcertainnewpossibilities for
architecture. thesewereusuallytrajecto-
Ironically, AND IT WAS THE PUBLICATION OF THAT BOOK, DELIRIOUS
ries awayfromarchitecture. Fromtheverybegin- NEW YORK, AND NOT THE DESIGN OF A BUILDING, THAT

ning, I found to
architecture be a veryclaustrophobic INITIALLY MADE YOUR REPUTATION. HOW DID THAT EXPE-

world,and I had a lotofrespectforpeoplewhowere RIENCE AFFECT THE DEVELOPMENT OF YOUR PRACTICE IN

abletostepoutofthelimitations ofthefieldbyintro- THE EARLY DAYS?

ducingnewmodels.AndI wouldsaythatmytendency Well,unlikemostarchitects, I hada profession before

has alwaysbeen to admirepeoplewhokeep them- I thinkthatbeinga journalisthad
I was an architect.
selvesfrombecomingcaricatures andwhomaintain an important effect.Journalism is ironicallyone of
a certaindistancefrom fameevenas theypossessthe thefewprofessions thatis almostcompletely immune
ofit.
characteristics
clearlyidentifiable tofame.Therearealmostnofamousjournalists. The
journalistis drivenbyan insatiablecuriosity coupled
AFTER YOU GRADUATED FROM ARCHITECTURE SCHOOL, withthe abilityto findand condenseinformation
DID YOU HAVE A CLEAR SENSE OF WHERE YOU WANTED quickly.Thatexperience, coupledwiththefactthatI
TOGO? startedrelativelylatein architecture - I was twenty-
No, not at all. Butit's to
important notethat I'm from five before I even started studyingarchitecture -
the'68generation, whichwasreallybotha curseanda madeitrelatively easy for me not to feelintimidated
blessing.Itwasa cursebecausetheculturalnotions of bythearchitecture worldatthatstage.
theso-calledrevolutionary machinewereveryuncrit- Thegreatbenefit ofwriting a bookbefore practicing
ical,self-indulgent, On theother as an architect
and self-important. was thatit helpedme getwork.But
hand,ithadoneenormous whichwasthatthe itwasbadbecauseitmeantthatmysubsequent
virtue, work
situationallowedme to defersatisfaction. So after had to meetan unusuallyheavyburdenof proof.
I finishedschool,withoutthe slightesthesitation, I thinkthatmyexperience exposedme to a number
I addedsix moreyearsto thatin orderto do a book. of unspokenprejudices that still operatein the
AndI thinkthatrightnow,anyofyouwouldbe really current culturalmoment. There'sa strange prejudice
frightened towasteso muchtime.Today,thereis the thatsaysyoucannotboththinkanddoarchitecture at
feelingthatyouneedto workfast,and youhaveto thesametime.

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AM#MA / REM KOOl HAAS
PERSPECTA
37;FAMOUS *
^^^
^ri^^^H^HT K^ A ^^^.^^H^f^^^
IT SEEMS THAT OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR CAREER,
YOUR BOOKS HAVESERVED TO ARTICULATENEW DEVEL-
OPMENTS AND DIRECTIONS IN YOUR THINKING. IN A
WAY,YOU HAVE CONTINUALLYRESHAPED YOUR IMAGE
THROUGH PUBLICATIONSBY STAKINGCLAIMS IN NEW
AREASOF EXPLORATION.
Well,you can inventa new identitymuch more
easilywitha bookthanwitharchitecture. I think
that publishingbooks is actuallya greatluxury
forus,becauseit'sa relativelyquickwayofredefin-
a
ingourselvesbyexploring seriesofnewpractices
and interests.
In a way,eachbookis an experiment,
butalso a kindofironicapproximation ofa certain
typology.S,M,L,XLwas abouttheworkas a book,
whereasContent is muchmorepolemical.WithCon-
tent,we wanted do something veryquicklywithout
becomingsuperficial, while at thesametimealign-
ing ourselvesawayfromthe designworldtoward
otherdisciplines.
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IN A LECTUREYOU GAVE,YOU MENTIONEDTHATIN THE
INITIAL PHASE OF DEVELOPMENTON THE Y2K HOUSE ^
PROJECT,OMA PRODUCED A VERSION THAT IT DID NOT ^
HAVETHE FREEDOMTO PURSUE, BECAUSEOTHER PRAC-
£
TITIONERS HAD ALREADYCLAIMED THAT PART OF THE ^
ARCHITECTURAL SPECTRUM.HOWDO YOU POSITIONYOUR Ï
WORKIN THATSPECTRUM,AND HOW DOES THATAFFECT 2
YOURWORKINGPROCESS? C
To be precise, the reason we didn't build the Y2K *
House was not because it was too similar to other
architects' work, but because we couldn't come to
an agreement with the client. But earlier on, we had
been experimenting with something that looked
Gehry-like. And in a certain way, the easily cari-
catured inventory of current positions can be very
useful forthe design process. Because you can imag-
ine, for instance, a Gehry version, an Eisenman ver-
sion, a Zaha version, and it sometimes helps acceler-
ate your own thinking.
SO DO YOUVIEWYOURSELF ASACELEBRITY?
I see a very importantdistinctionbetween fame,
whichI feelis relatedto work,and celebrity, whichis
relatedto the person.Celebrityis reallyan American
condition;it simplydoes not exist in the same way
anywhereelse in the world.I would say that in the
case oftheWhitneyMuseum project,forinstance,the
reasons why we were chosen were probably more
related to celebritythan to the workitself.And that
also made it easier forthemto rejectthe projectulti-
mately,because theycould spin it and use the preex-
istingtypologyofthe celebrity- a personwho won't
listen,who refusesto compromise.So thatwas a very
negativeexperienceofcelebrityculture.
I guess I'm speaking froma position of almost
artificialinnocence,but,in the end, I considermyself
to be a producerof ideas. I am more interestedin
launchingideas and findingreactionsto them.
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IN A WAY, THIS CELEBRITY CULTURE COMES OUT OF THE
POPULAR MEDIA'S PROPENSITY TO TRY TO BRAND ITS
SUBJECTS AS ONE THING OR ANOTHER, AS WITH THE CAR-
ICATURES YOU MENTIONED EARLIER. WHAT HAS BEEN
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THIS? HOW DO YOU RESIST OR
CHALLENGE THIS TENDENCY?
Forme,a veryeffective formofresistancehas been
simplytoliveandworkin Rotterdam. The European
mediareallydon'thavethepervasivepresenceofthe
American media.AndifyouworkinRussiaorChina,
it'sevenmorelimited.The intensivemediaspecta-
cle is mostlyan Americanphenomenon, andyoucan
wonderifthereis a directcorrelationbetweenceleb-
rityand therelativepovertyofAmericanarchitec-
ture.Ifmoresubstancewereproduced,perhapsthe
cultofcelebrity mightnotbe as prominent.
On theotherhand,ifyouare a producer ofideas,
itis clearlyusefulto haveaccessto theCharlieRose
Show,forinstance.Perhaps,inthatsense,themedia
 ft mm

attentionhas been verybeneficialforme. Althoughit broughtby fame.So in thatsense, celebrityhas been

was neverintendedas such,ithas enabled me to move relativelyevenhanded.
beyond the worldof architecture,which was what I It's a positionofexceptionalluxury.We have been |
wantedin anycase. able to pursue our interestin Africa.We are hopingto
become even moreinvolvedwiththeEuropean Union
TRADITIONALLY,ARCHITECTS HAVEATTEMPTED TO EXPAND and play a largerrole in being responsibleforrepre-
THEIR ROLES BY DESIGNING PRODUCTS AND FURNITURE. sentingtheirintentions.
WHILE YOU CANNOT BUY A KOOLHAAS TEA KETTLE OR EVEN
MUCHOF YOURWORKHASBEENFORWHATCOULDBE
A KOOLHAAS CHAIR, IT SEEMS THAT AMO'S WORK FOR CLI-
ENTS SUCH AS PRADA AND THE EUROPEAN UNION REPRE-CALLED AHIGH-CULTURE CLIENTELE.
WITHCONTENT, YOU
SENTS THE SAME SORT OF EXPANSION OF THE ROLE OF SEEMTOBEMOVING TOWARD ADIFFERENT DIRECTION,BY
THE ARCHITECT. MORECONSCIOUSLY EVOKING TABLOID CULTURE.
Maybethat'sthebestcharacterization ofwhatfame Well,that'sa keycharacteristicofjournalism... ithas
andcelebrityhas enabledus todo.Wehavebeenable a veryleveling gaze. We've always been skeptical of
to enterterritories
wherearchitectshave notbeen high culture,but at the same time deeply aware and
invited.ThroughAMO,we havebeenableto pursue even committedto some ofits forms.But the tabloid
moreofourownagendaandin certaincases initiate natureofContentis meantas an articulationofa par-
ourownprojects. Itwouldbe disingenuoustosaythat ticularmoment.Whetherit's due to consumerismor
it wouldhave been possiblewithoutthe attention whateverelse you mightcall it, I would say thatwe

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_^á^^w.
are living in a worldwith an extremelyshortatten-
tionspan,whichis increasinglyruledby sound bites.
It was importantforus to representthe vulgarityof
the whole thing.And ifyou look at our work,I think
thatvulgarityhas alwaysbeen in the background.
HIGH-PROFILE ARCHITECTS ARE OFTEN HIRED BY CLI-
ENTS WHO WANT A BUILDING WITH A RECOGNIZABLE
SIGNATURE. WHILE YOUR WORK IS NOT SO STRONGLY
IDENTIFIED BY A STYLISTIC SIGNATURE, DO YOU FIND
THAT CLIENTS EXPECT CERTAIN THINGS FROM YOU AS
WELL?
Currentlyin Europe, almost all of the new work
comes through competitions.As a result, you are
almostneverconfrontedwitha client'sexpectations.
That is one of the almost frighteningaspects of the
currentarchitecturalsituation,because it's kind ofa
lottery.And what you end up withis a situationthat
is profoundlydismissiveand destructiveofa number
of much more intimateand productiveconnections
thatarchitecturecould have. We'vetriedto resistthis
system,butithasn'treallyworked.
So I'd reallyhave to go back in time quite a bit to
findan instancewhen a clientcame to us specifically
because it was us and specificallybecause they
expected somethingfromus. That happened in the
case of the Villa Dall'Ava, outside Paris, where the
clientsreallyknew exactlywhattheywere doing.
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"y
; :,ï';r>ï«m
Xfer/-.
AND DID YOU FIND IT DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH THEM
BECAUSE OF THAT?
No, that is one of the beauties of how architecture
works.The stakes are so high thatyou move almost
immediatelybeyondpoliteness and almost immedi-
atelyconfrontissues about moneyand intimacy.One
has no choice exceptto become genuine.
DO YOU FIND THAT EXPECTATIONS ARE DIFFERENT WHEN
YOU ARE WORKING IN CHINA, FOR INSTANCE, AS OPPOSED
TO THE U.S. OR EUROPE?
Yes, it couldn'tbe more different.Rightnow,we are
workingin America,Europe, Russia, and China. It's
hard to generalize,but I would have to say thatwhat
is most differentis the nature of the client and our
relationship with the client. For instance, at the
Whitney,the average age ofthe trusteeswas perhaps
sixty or seventy. They were a highly risk-averse
group who were there less forthe art than fortheir
individual egos.
Meanwhile,in China,we are workingwithclients
and decision-makerswho are on average thirty-five
years old, so it is totallydifferentin terms of risk-
taking and also in termsofthe energytheyput into
the process. And in Europe rightnow,everythingis
usually verypolitical,but with a kind of impersonal
aspect to the process as well. As you can see, having
these opportunitiesto workgloballyhas exposed us
to a big anthropologicalspectacle.
CCTV Headquarters, Beijing, 2002-

SO THESE DAYS YOU HAVE BUILDING PROJECTS ALL OVER too stuckin ourownworld.Oncewe haveloosened
THE WORLD, YOU'RE DOING WORK FOR THE EUROPEAN ourdefinitionofwhatarchitecture is,we can simply
UNION, AND YOU'RE DIRECTING ACADEMIC RESEARCH AT engage in a mutual interaction of potentialintelli-
HARVARD. IT SEEMS THAT OMA / AMO IS MODELED AFTER gence.On mypart,I thinkit'ssimplyabouthaving
THE OPERATIONAL TYPOLOGY OF THE COLLABORATIVE an instinct
as towhattherelevantissuesare.
CONSULTANCY, DEVELOPING IDEAS AND EXPERTISE. HOW Manyofourclientsarealsoverysmart.Everyproj-
DO YOU MANAGE TO KEEP EVERYTHING GOING AND NOT ectbecomesa learning whichsoundslikea
condition,
GET CAUGHT UP WITH THE POTENTIALLY LIMITING FAC- stupidcliché, but it's reallytrue.Celebrity culture
TORS OF BEING A CELEBRITY? breedsa particularlyobnoxious perception there
that
Weareprivileged tobe abletoworkwithmanypeople areall ofthesefigures whohogthestageandwhocon-
whoare reallysmart.In theoffice, we havea judg- tinuallyrecycle thesamethings.Butthereality isthat
mentsystem thatis ruthlessandefficientandnotdic- manypeoplehavedoubtsandfeeltheneedtocontinu-
tatedbypoliteness orrank,becauseonethingthatwe allyexperiment withdifferent things.I hatetousethe
trytomaintain is theideathatanyonecanmakea dis- wordmodesty, butwe do tryto maintainsomemod-
covery, thateverydiscovery canbe valid.Forus,effi- estyvis-à-visthe phenomenathatare aroundus. I
is
ciency really our secret.Of course,itcan oftenbe havea dedicationtolearning newthings.
as or
perceived coldness brutality.
Wehavehadtheluxuryofbeingabletoworkwith
peopleoutsideofarchitecture, so thatwe don'tget

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