Airgun Silencer Legal References

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<b class="postauthor">stevejobs</b>
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<td class="gensmall" width="100%"><div style="float: left;"> <b>Post
subject:</b> <a href="#p673700">School me on air rifle silencers</a></div><div
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p=673700&sid=c1cec83fcc3dd4af70a884574dec3ebf#p673700" class="imageset"><span
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<br /><b>Joined:</b> Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:37 pm <br /><b>Posts:</b> 2144
<br /><b>Location:</b> Oregon
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<div class="postbody">What are some top brands? What are the laws in the USA
(Oregon). As quiet as a suppressed subsonic .22LR? Thanks.</div>
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<b class="postauthor">doubloon</b>
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subject:</b> <a href="#p673705">Re: School me on air rifle silencers</a></div><div
Apr 03, 2011 3:31 pm </div></td>
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<br /><b>Joined:</b> Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am <br /><b>Posts:</b> 11602
<br /><b>Location:</b> Houston-ish
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<div class="postbody">With the Marauder the only thing you will hear is the hammer
drop and the spring pinging when pushing a 10+gr .177 caliber pellet at ~950
fps.<br /><br />The first time I shot mine I thought it was broke or I did
something wrong. I had to check the barrel and make sure a pellet was missing from
the magazine to convince myself something actually happened. Then I pointed
someplace there would be no doubt if a pellet came out of the barrel or not and the
giggles started as soon as I pulled the trigger. <img class="smilies"
src="./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><br /><br />I can't
say I know the specifics of all the laws but the internals on the Marauder are a
stack of simple plastic cups and the whole shroud can be taken apart and removed
for cleaning, even on the .22 caliber.<br /><br />I assume there's something about
the construction, the fact that it's made to fit like an integral that makes is
legal without a $200 stamp.</div>
<div class="postbody"><br />_________________<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is
Water DavidW<br />Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
f=10&t=79895</div>
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Apr 03, 2011 3:43 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Cool. What rifle do you have? I think <a
href="http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=658757"
class="postlink">this one</a> might be overkill. I need something for rodents,
chirpers, and what not. How dirty does an air rifle get? I've never owned one, what
are the basics? Thanks.</div>
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<b class="postauthor">HILMAN76</b>
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Apr 03, 2011 4:15 pm </div></td>
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<br /><b>Joined:</b> Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:58 am <br /><b>Posts:</b> 207
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<div class="postbody"><div class="quotetitle">stevejobs wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent">Cool. What rifle do you have? I think <a
href="http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=658757"
class="postlink">this one</a> might be overkill. I need something for rodents,
chirpers, and what not. How dirty does an air rifle get? I've never owned one, what
are the basics? Thanks.</div><br /><br /><br />PLEASE do not buy that at Midway,
shop at Pyramid Air, it will save ya' money on the rifle and shipping..<img
class="smilies" src="./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif" alt=":cool:" title="Cool"
/><br /><a class="postlink"
href="http://www.pyramydair.com/">http://www.pyramydair.com/</a><br /><a
class="postlink" href="http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Benjamin-Marauder-air-
rifle.shtml">http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Benjamin-Ma ... ifle.shtml</a><br />Coupon
code # <a class="postlink"
href="http://www.retailmenot.com/view/pyramydair.com">http://www.retailmenot.com/vi
ew/pyramydair.com</a></div>
<div class="postbody"><br />_________________<br />If ya' cant dazzle'em with
brilliance, baffle'em with bullshit! <img class="smilies"
src="./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /></div>
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Apr 03, 2011 4:53 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Thanks for the coupon. I actually think I'm going to get
the .22 version because <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TePXtt_dSlw"
class="postlink">this</a> review said it was a lot quieter. I don't need 50 yards,
I've got a .300BLK rifle for that. As far as maintnence, if all I have to do is run
a snake down the bore and lube an o-ring, I'll be completey stoked. Well, back to
my youtube research. <img class="smilies" src="./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif"
alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /></div>
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Apr 03, 2011 5:23 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">That's the rifle I was talking about in .177, the
Marauder.<br /><br />I have that and a few others. FWIW the Beeman R9 is a hard
hitter and pretty quiet in it's own right. It will hustle a 8.5gr .177 down field
at ~925 fps and is still quieter than a suppressed .22lr. Because of the spring
mechanism it sounds much louder from the shooter perspective but still much quieter
than a .22lr suppressed.<br /><br />The advantage of the R9 over the Marauder is no
pump or tank to carry around, the advantage of the Marauder over the R9 is it's
ready to go after simply cycling the bolt, no cocking or pumping.<br /><br
/>Depending on what you're trying to accomplish they are both more than quiet
enough for most any purpose, the main differences are readiness to fire and
portability.</div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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Apr 03, 2011 8:22 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Check these websites out for "air moderators", no
NFA stuff required, all 100% legal. You can buy an average springer or Co2 Pellet
rifle and add a moderator, CHEAP.<img class="smilies"
src="./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif" alt=":cool:" title="Cool" /><br /><br /><a
class="postlink" href="http://www.tko22.com/">http://www.tko22.com/</a> They call
it the lead dust collector,LDC.<br /><br /><a class="postlink"
href="http://www.mountainaircustomairguns.com/index.htm">http://www.mountainaircust
omairguns.com/index.htm</a> its under accessories.</div>
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class="imageset icon_post_target" title="Post">Post</span></a><b>Posted:</b> Tue
Apr 12, 2011 10:23 am </div></td>
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<div class="postbody"><div class="quotetitle">HILMAN76 wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent">... no NFA stuff required, all 100% legal. ...</div><br />YMMV
...<br /><br /><a class="postlink"
href="http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/silencers/">http://www.pyramydair.com
/site/articles/silencers/</a></div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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class="imageset icon_post_target" title="Post">Post</span></a><b>Posted:</b> Wed
Apr 13, 2011 12:08 am </div></td>
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<div class="postbody"><div class="quotetitle">doubloon wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent"><div class="quotetitle">HILMAN76 wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent">... no NFA stuff required, all 100% legal. ...</div><br />YMMV
...<br /><br /><a class="postlink"
href="http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/silencers/">http://www.pyramydair.com
/site/articles/silencers/</a></div><br /><br /><br /><br /> <img class="smilies"
src="./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /> <img
class="smilies" src="./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:"
title="Shocked" /> I retract my 100% legal statement <img class="smilies"
src="./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /></div>
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<b class="postauthor">Fallschirmjäger</b>
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class="imageset icon_post_target" title="Post">Post</span></a><b>Posted:</b> Sat
Nov 12, 2011 1:30 pm </div></td>
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<td class="postdetails">Silent Operator</td>
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<br /><b>Joined:</b> Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:52 pm <br /><b>Posts:</b> 73
<br /><b>Location:</b> Central Ohio
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<div class="postbody">Nah, I don't buy that. Let's look at the actual definition as
per the ATF and 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24):<br /><br />"(24) The terms ``firearm
silencer'' and ``firearm muffler'' mean any <br />device for silencing, muffling,
or diminishing the report of a portable <br />firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and <br />intended for use in assembling or
fabricating a firearm silencer or <br />firearm muffler, and any part intended only
for use in such assembly or <br />fabrication."<br /><br />So let's treat this
like eating an elephant; one bite at a time:<br /><br />The term “Firearm Silencer”
or “Firearm Muffler”:<br /> 1) Any device <span style="color:
#000000"><strong>for</strong></span> silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report
of<span style="color: #000000"><strong> a portable firearm</strong></span>,<br />
2) Any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and <span style="color:
#000000"><strong>intended for</strong></span> the use in assembling or fabricating
a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, <br /> 3) Any part intended <span
style="color: #000000"><strong>only for use</strong></span> in such assembly or
fabrication.<br /><br />Points two and three of those criteria point to the fact
that the device is intended for use with a firearm. Point one states that the
device is "for" a firearm, which could cover an incident when something
not designed for a firearm is used to suppress a firearm. However, until that
threshold is crossed, by the legal definition, a device not intended to be used on
a firearm is not an NFA item. <br /><br />I know there have been cases where air
rifle suppressors have been confiscated and tested by the ATF and deemed silencers
because they attached them to a firearm and it indeed suppressed the report.
However, the ATF specifically used that device in a manner for which the device was
not designed, so THEY made it a silencer, not the person who possessed it. This
would be the same as the ATF confiscating a plastic coke bottle, putting it on a 22
short, and saying it suppressed the sound; does that make plastic bottles
silencers? No, because they were not designed to do that.<br /><br />The best way
to get around this issue is for airgun silencer manufacturers to simply engrave
"For Airgun Use Only!" on each silencer, as Weihrauch does. That way,
it's explicit that the device was not for, or intended for, firearms.</div>
<br /><br />
<span class="gensmall">Last edited by <a href="./memberlist.php?
class="username">Fallschirmjäger</a> on Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:10 am, edited 2 times
in total.</span>
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Nov 12, 2011 2:17 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody"><div class="quotetitle">Fallschirmjäger wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent">...<br />Points two and three of those criteria point to the
fact that the device is intended for use with a firearm. Point one states that the
device is "for" a firearm, which could cover an incident when something
not designed for a firearm is used to suppress a firearm. However, until that
threshold is crossed, by the legal definition, a device not intended to be used on
a firearm is not an NFA item. <br />...<br />The best way to get around this issue
is for airgun silencer manufacturers to simply engrave "For Airgun Use Only!
" on each silencer, as Weihrauch does. That way, it's explicit that the device
was not for, or intended for, firearms.</div><br />So if I have Brooks build me a
suppressor capable of being used on anything up to a .308 and have him simply
engrave it with "For Airgun Use Only!" I should be O.K.? <img
class="smilies" src="./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:"
title="Rolling Eyes" /> <br /><br />I think you need to read that paragraph again
very carefully.<br /><br />There is no "intended" in that first bit.
"The terms ``firearm silencer'' and ``firearm muffler'' mean any device for
silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm,"<br
/><br />The "intended" bit doesn't come into play until you start talking
about the parts and I can guarantee it will be the ATF, not you, deciding the
"for" and the "intent".<br /><br />JMO, YMMV</div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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Nov 13, 2011 12:19 am </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Hey, roll your eyes as much as you like, but per the verbage,
and per the interpretation any prudent person would make, if you, in your example,
built a device that could withstand .308 pressures, engraved it as "airgun use
only", and never installed it on anything but an airgun, explain to me how
that is "Any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a
portable firearm." That is a device that CAN do that, but it is not FOR that
purpose, and unless you are using it in a "manner for which it is not
intended", it would be completely legal by the ATF's own definition. Again, if
the ATF installs it on a rifle to test it, they're using it for a purpose other
than what it was intended for.<br /><br />I know there has been one case where
someone has gotten jail time from this, but I believe there were extenuating
circumstances there. Not trying to play shit-house lawyer here, but I'm not going
to live in fear of the law when I abide by the laws as they are written...</div>
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Nov 13, 2011 1:09 am </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Don't get your panties in a wad.<br /><br />Sure, it's still
the U.S. of A. and you're innocent until proven guilty, blah blah, yada yada.<br
/><br />If you want to be the guy spending money on lawyers, standing in court
explaining to the judge "Yes your honor it *could* be used to silence a
firearm but that's not what I bought it for ..." then just keep us updated on
how that turns out for you.<br /><br />Notice it doesn't say anywhere that the ATF
tested the "intent" of the device before determining it was a silencer,
only that they tested the <strong><em>design and function</em></strong>.<br
/><br /><a class="postlink" href="http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-
firearms-act-firearms.html#paintball-airgun-
suppressers">http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... uppressers</a><br /><br
/><div class="quotetitle"><b>Quote:</b></div><div class="quotecontent">Q: Are
Paintball and/or Airgun Sound Suppressers NFA firearms?<br /><br /> The terms
“firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling,
or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of
parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a
firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such
assembly or fabrication.<br /><br /> <span style="color: #FF0000"> Numerous
paintball and airgun silencers tested by ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch have been
determined to be, by nature of their design and function, firearm silencers.
</span>Because silencers are NFA weapons, an individual wishing to manufacture or
transfer such a silencer must receive prior approval from ATF and pay the required
tax. See also “What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is
not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?” and “How
does an individual obtain authorization to make an NFA firearm?” for application
details.<br /><br /> If you have any further questions as to the classification of
a paintball or airgun silencer, please send a written request to ATF’s Firearms
Technology Branch.<br /><br /> [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a), 27 CFR
479.11]<br /></div></div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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Nov 13, 2011 6:18 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Thanks for the additional info, but again, by the legal
definition, the ATF itself is incorrect; if they have attached a device that is not
designed for firearms to a firearm, they have then repurposed that device a
firearms silencer. Again, I think the fact here is most folks are concerned enough
about how our gov't makes up and then interprets their own laws that they don't
want to mess with this, but if this were really true, you'd have the ATF throwing a
lot of folks in the clink for either possessing or manufacturing airgun
suppressors, as it's not too hard to find them for sale on most airgun
forums.<br /><br />Regarding your panties in a wad comment, if you can't take
someone calling you on adding a stupid emoticon in response to a posting, don't add
them; generally online forums would be much more civil without the associated
keyboard commando sarcasm...</div>
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class="imageset icon_post_target" title="Post">Post</span></a><b>Posted:</b> Mon
Nov 14, 2011 9:50 am </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Why not stick to facts instead of making up your own
statistics and drawing conclusions like "if it were really illegal
<strong><em>more</em></strong> people would be convicted". <insert rolling
eyes here>.<br /><br />There's already been a ruling on this by the ATF and if
your "idea" actually had a chance of working as defense against
prosecution then we should be able to manufacture and buy fully functional machines
guns stamped with "Just for looking at. Do not fire." The idea of a
manufacturer or a buyer being able to avoid prosecution by simply stamping a
removable silencer with a disclaimer that it should only be used only for airguns
is ludicrous and deserves more than just an emoticon of rolling eyes.<br /><br
/>You "calling me out" over an emoticon doesn't even register so don't
sweat it, I just didn't want you to go throwing yourself out of a plane over an
emoticon.<br /><br />Please find below a link to the document from the ATF
containing the ruling on the difference between a silencer permanently attached to
an airgun and a removable silencer stamped with "for airgun use only".<br
/><br /><a class="postlink" href="http://www.atf.gov/regulations-
rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf">http://www.atf.gov/regulations-
rulings/ ... 2005-4.pdf</a><br /><br /><div
class="quotetitle"><b>Quote:</b></div><div class="quotecontent">Held, a device for
an unregulated paintball gun, having a permanently<br />affixed, integral ported
barrel and other components, that functions to reduce the<br />report of the
paintball gun is not a “firearm silencer” or “firearm muffler” as defined,<br />as
the device is not one for diminishing the report of a portable firearm.<br /><br
/>Held further, removal of the permanently affixed ported barrel and other<br
/>components from a paintball gun is a “making” of a silencer under the GCA
and<br />NFA that requires advance approval from ATF.</div></div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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class="imageset icon_post_target" title="Post">Post</span></a><b>Posted:</b> Fri
Nov 18, 2011 8:42 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody"><span style="color: #000000">To be honest, after looking at
your signature, your avatar, and reading your sarcasm-laden replies, it's apparent
that trying to make you understand my point is akin to casting pearls before swine,
but I'll try one last time. I don't know where you get that I've offered statistics
or drawn conclusions, but I have made the undeniable point that there is a cottage
industry here in the US around the airgun market that manufactures and
<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline">openly</span></strong> markets
both suppressors and shrouds that would easily fit within your supplied
interpretation of the ATF's rules, and therefore be NFA items and require the tax
stamp, etc... However, these folks continue to manufacture them and sell them, in
plain view, and in established businesses as well. These aren't two or three
people, and if you follow airguns, you know just what I'm talking about. But then
again, if you took more interest in the English language and understood how words
go together to make sentences and convey meaning, this would all be easier for you
to understand.<br /><br />I'm sure when you read the 2nd Amendment you don't come
away with the feeling that only the Army and National Guard have the right to bear
arms. The reason you don't is because you understand the <strong>intent </strong>of
what was written, regardless of how odd the structure is. By that same token, the
sentence "Any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a
portable firearm" should be pretty clear that the intent covers devices FOR
(as is stated, FOR) a firearm.<br /><br />Now you can be cute and be a Billy and
say "Yeah, well what if somebody makes a .50 suppressor and puts 'For Airguns
Only' on it, does that make it legal <yuck yuck>", but that's just it,
you being a smart-ass Billy. Manufacturing an airgun suppressor that doesn't even
survive one shot through a firearm intact should make it pretty clear it was not a
"device for a portable firearm," yet the ATF has made the argument that
because it reduced the report by <strong>1 decibel</strong> it was a firearms
suppressor. Does that even come close to the intent of the law, or even what is
written? It should be pretty clear that it's not a "device for a portable
firearm." However, with your sarcastic example of a device that could
withstand .308 pressures wearing the "Airgun" disclaimer being legal, by
definition of the law it would indeed be legal. It's usage in contrast with it's
intended usage would be your crime, just like when products wear the warning
"It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent
with its labeling." Wouldn't that actually be pretty accurate? While you have
over-manufactured your airgun suppressor, if it's used on a firearm, despite your
engraved disclaimer, it sure as hell is a violation of a Federal law, right? Now in
the case of an airgun suppressor that basically explodes on the end of a firearm,
wouldn't that be pretty clear it wasn't being used in a manner consistent with it's
labeling, or manufacture?<br /><br />You don't need to be a legal expert to see
that the ATF is overreaching with the definition of a suppressor when they make the
determination that a paintball suppressor that was removed was then a firearms
suppressor. Just because they say "Held" doesn't mean squat, they just
make their rules and intimidate folks. I'm more inclined to read the law as it's
intended, and follow intent, not someone's manipulation. If I had the money to
waste, or better yet if I'd have gone into law, I'd love nothing more than to
challenge these asinine rulings, but I have other things to do with my time/money,
like buying more NFA toys, and even airguns...<br /><br />Look at it another way;
if I own an M-16 full-auto trigger group but don't own an AR-15 or anything to put
it in, it's perfectly legal. However, if I own an AR-15 and have these parts, now
I'm in trouble, because you can argue intent, because that trigger group is a
device for a firearm, specifically that firearm. So if I have an airgun suppressor
for an airgun, how does that jump into the firearm category???<br /><br />I think
I've laid about as much good info here that I can, and if you still don't get it, I
feel sorry for you, but I'm not going to waste more time debating it with you. Like
I said, go read the 2nd Amendment and try and find all the interpretations and see
if it's clearer than something explicitly stating "a device for a portable
firearm."<br /><br />And don't worry about my emotional well being, I'm all
good, I just don't suffer fools gladly...</span></div>
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<b class="postauthor">Liver</b>
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Dec 14, 2011 4:35 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Whenever I see such spirited discussion on both sides I see
the issue is not black or white. There is a gray area. It's not an absolute. <br
/><br />So I'm going to use my registered suppressor. Anyone know of rifles that
come threaded? Most likely I'll have to get it done afterwards. <br /><br />Does
SBR apply to air guns too?</div>
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Dec 14, 2011 8:43 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">Liver, realistically your firearms suppressor is not going to
work as well as an airgun specific moderator could, although it will help some of
course. <br /><br />Because moderators are typically 1/2x20 UNF, the threading on
most airguns is as well. You can get slip-on adapters that are made to accept
1/2x28 threading and others for most airgun barrel sizes, as well as other adapters
that convert a threaded airgun. Google "airgun silencer store" and check
some of what's available in Britain.<br /><br />SBR is governed by the National
Firearms Act, so no, SBR doesn't apply to airguns.</div>
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<div class="postbody"><div class="quotetitle">Liver wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent">... There is a gray area. It's not an absolute. <br
/>...</div><br />Exactly, it's gray and all I'm saying is it could still rack up
some legal fees even if you don't go to jail. As the plane jumper pointed out the
circumstances of the transgression are always an important factor in what legal
consequences may unfold, I just don't like to bank on things going my way by
chance.<br /><br />A "good" story, it probably cost him quite a bit in
legal fees.<br /><a class="postlink"
href="http://www.masslive.com/hampfrank/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-
5/115173979429840.xml&coll=1">http://www.masslive.com/hampfrank/repub ...
xml&coll=1</a><br /><br />A not so good story but when you are already
convicted of a felony you probably need to walk a little closer to the line than
everybody else.<br /><a class="postlink" href="http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-
circuit/1527670.html">http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html</a><br
/><div class="quotetitle"><b>Quote:</b></div><div class="quotecontent">Michael
Crooker was indicted, tried and convicted for transporting a firearm in interstate
commerce as a convicted felon, 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) (2006), and sentenced to 262
months' imprisonment. The “firearm” was a device designed to muffle the sound of
an airgun.</div><br /><br />3.2 decibels seems hardly worth the trouble<br /><a
class="postlink" href="http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-
circuit/1061877.html">http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1061877.html</a><br
/><br />There are more stories out there if you search for them.<br /><br
/>@Fallschirmjäger - it wasn't a barb at the state of your mental health it was a
poke at your chosen forum handle ... Fallschirmjäger == paratrooper ... jump out of
a plane ... get it? probably not</div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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<div class="postbody">No, I get it, a la "perfectly good airplane"...
Just something less about mental health and more about intestinal fortitude.<br
/><br />You know, if I would have known answering liver's question would have woke
you up, I'd have never posted. <img class="smilies"
src="./images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /> <br
/><br />At the end of the day, whether we agree or not on this, the ATF is really
pushing the envelope on the issue. To be completely honest, you can walk into any
airsoft store and buy replica's of suppressors that actually will mount on existing
firearms, and they would be the same thing you've been talking about, but I don't
see the ATF rounding all those folks up and shipping them off to jail. <br /><br
/>If it concerns you, don't do it. Me, I'm not concerned.</div>
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<div class="postbody">Just as a follow up to this thread, I wanted to include a
link to a court case:<br /><br /><a class="postlink"
href="http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-
circuit/1527670.html">http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1527670.html</a><br
/><br />In this case the gov't tried to assert that an air rifle
silencer/moderator/LDC fell under the NFA, and they lost. One of the key's was the
use of "for" in the ATF's definition of a silencer, as well as the intent
of the person in possession.<br /><br />So, I'd say we're good to go with having
airgun silencers...</div>
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<div class="postbody"><div class="quotetitle">Fallschirmjäger wrote:</div><div
class="quotecontent">...<br />If it concerns you, don't do it. Me, I'm not
concerned.</div><br />We no doubt agree at least here. The only place we really
disagree is in what council we offer over the internet on this topic.<br /><br />I
think we also agree that silencers being regulated under the NFA or as a firearm at
all is a ridiculous notion by itself but one we're stuck with for now.<br /><br
/>The link you provided is one I linked a few posts earlier, the appeal to a 2006
conviction that resulted in an acquittal 4 years after the original
conviction.<br /><br />Mr. Crooker is certainly no role model of a citizen but he
did eventually shirk off the silencer conviction.<br /><br />I suppose someone
could follow in his footsteps and in the event of a legal snag cite Mr. Crooker's
case as a precedent but I still think there's wiggle room for the FED to get the
occasional conviction that will stick. So, for me personally, I still think it's
not worth the trouble, just my opinion of course.</div>
f=10&t=79895</div>
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<b class="postauthor">jlwilliams</b>
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Apr 14, 2012 8:25 am </div></td>
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<br /><b>Joined:</b> Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:15 am <br /><b>Posts:</b> 2032
<br /><b>Location:</b> CT
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<div class="postbody">Fair enough.<br /><br /> I have looked at this and gone round
and round with it myself, and this is what I came up with.<br /><br /> It seems
clear that BATFE is over reaching and even flat out wrong, but they still win.
Anybody who has ever been to court or watched someone close to you go through the
wringer has seen how it works. They seize your property, make the whole thing
public (a felony arrest often makes your employer find a reason to dismiss you just
to get the controversy out of their company) and generally grind you down. Then
they spend unlimited money in court. You fight the good fight as long as you can
afford to. The only person I've known to fight and win against a major arrest (that
was BS from the get go, according to him) got divorced and bankrupted by the
process. I have known another who fought untill he went broke, only to have to
plead out at the the end because he couldn't fight any more. He thought that just
because he didn't do anything wrong meant he didn't have to plead to a misdomenor.
He was wrong. Now he's broke and on probation. The point is, they can fight forever
on the taxpayer's dime and can limit your access to your own resources in ways you
would never imagine untill you are standing in court and a motion is made and
passed and you are standing there wondering WTF just happened. (I can provide more
details via PM if anybody is interested but I don't want to waste more time on
speciffics of these guy's cases)<br /><br /> OK, minor rant on the injustice of
"the system" made. Stepping off the soap box and getting down to what all
this means in the context of suppressed airguns.<br /><br /> First, there are
airguns with integral suppressors all over the market. Some can be bought at big
box retailers. Best bet for a suppresed airgun is to buy one. Spring piston guns
like the Gamo (Gamo sucks ass, but they fit the conversation) and the new Chinese
ones Archer Airguns has (don't recall the name branding) are available or you can
go precharged like the Marauder or the TallonSS. Good to go. Most importantly, if
you come in contact with LE they are more likely to recognise it as "OK"
because it is 'store bought' product. Is that really important? In the minds of
those with power over you it may well be the factor that makes them accept it, so
yes it is important. You can build your own or buy one off the net, but you are
more likely to find yourself arguing the truth to a judge that way than if you had
a receipt from Cabella's.<br /><br /> If you do want to build your own, filing a
form 1 and registering it as a 'firearm' silencer is cheaper than being right and
going to court to prove it. For $200, you get a stamp and a piece of paper that any
prosecutor will recognise as a non starter for charging you. If LE finds you
plinking legally with your silent airgun, you have paper, you won't even get
arrested after they consult their superiors and get told there is no case. All this
for less than the retainer you pay an attorney before you even step into court. A
co-worker who got DWId a couple years back told me it cost him about $4500. Not
sure if that included towing or car related expenses. I just paid $1500 for an
attorney to write a freaking letter. A felony arrest will generally take a minimum
of a $5k retainer, and plan on $10k minimum in legal bills for a chump charge that
gets dismissed. More if you fight well enough to get an aquittal.<br /><br /> I
don't think you would do jail time for an airgun silencer all by itself, which is
'legal' but you still could go down for. A screw on can for an airgun without a tax
stamp is asking for an expensive, life altering fight. A home built, nicely done
integral is less likely to be a problem and if you must go home made, go integral.
I do think your best bet for quiet airgunning is to spend $200 to $1000 on a
factory built one. You can pick up a Gamo Whisper in the couple hundred dolar
range, I think. Precharged silent goodness is awesome and I often wish I hadn't
sold my Marauder.<br /><br /> My opinion may seem schitzophrenic. If I say it's
legal, why do I think you shouldn't do it? It has just been my observation that
life isn't fair. No one cares if you are right, least of all the government. Buying
a tax stamp is cheaper than fighting, even if you are right. (again, no one cares
if you are right) Buying big box merchandise is easier still. Why do people (in
this case, law enforcement people) trust brand name merchandise over higher quality
hand made stuff built within the same guidelines? I don't know, but they do.<br
/><br /> It all adds up to buy an integral or get a stamp for a screw on.</div>
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Apr 14, 2012 1:08 pm </div></td>
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<div class="postbody">The problem is air rifle silencers/moderators don't come
serialized, and firearms silencers aren't engineered to work as effectively on air
rifles because they're two different mediums, i.e. expanding gas vs. a sudden
release of air. Many components of the design are similar, but air rifle silencers
don't have to deal with heat so they can use fabric, etc., in the chambers to
absorb the air pressure. <br /><br />So really the point is if I have a guy make me
a moderator for my S410 PCP, he's not going to engrave it so I can register it,
because then he needs to be licensed, pay SOT, etc... I started writing more, but
it's just one of those circular arguments about the ATF saying they don't deal with
airguns, etc...<br /><br />And doubloon, wow, this is why you don't post to a
thread that far past it's due date. I did a website for a guy who makes airgun
moderators and he sent me that link to reference on the site, and I thought I'd
post that out here. I guess in all the back and forth we had I forgot you had
originally linked it. Props to you on the link, although it reinforced my original
argument on the usage of "For" in the ATF's definition of a
silencer.<br /><br />Regarding my usage of moderators for airguns, I'll continue,
and will use them on state land to snipe sparrows and starlings, as well as
squirrel when they're in season. If I have any problems with the law, I carry legal
insurance, and that case we both referenced sets a legal precedent, so
realistically I'd be in the clear. That's not shithouse lawyering, that's literally
how the legal system works.<br /><br />Anyways, at the end of the day, airgun
silencers make a huge difference, as I can personally attest to on an air rifle
carbine that has a loud crack when you fire it, to now sounding more like a
dampened pneumatic nail gun. That's more than a 3 or 4 decibel reduction, but then
again, that's using a silencer designed and manufactured <strong>FOR </strong>an
airgun, not a firearm. <img class="smilies" src="./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif"
alt=";)" title="Wink" /><br /><br />Thanks guys.</div>
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<b class="postauthor">Scared_of_zombies</b>
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class="imageset icon_post_target" title="Post">Post</span></a><b>Posted:</b> Fri
May 11, 2012 1:40 pm </div></td>
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<br /><b>Joined:</b> Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:31 am <br /><b>Posts:</b> 165
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<div class="postbody">Why not just put a tack weld on the airgun silencer to mount
it to the pellet rifle?</div>
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