Genius Network Wyatt Woodsmall Transcripts (PDFDrive)

Genius Network Interview
Joe Polish, President of Piranha Marketing, Interviews:
Wyatt Woodsmall
NLP Master Trainer and High-End Coach
Understanding the
Entrepreneurial Mind
or “The Science of Idiots”
Understanding the Entrepreneurial Mind
GeniusNetwork.com
Interview Series Joe Polish Interviews NLP Master Trainer & High-End Coach
Wyatt Woodsmall
Joe Polish’s Tempe, Arizona office – headquarters for Piranha Marketing – is

often referred to by marketing insiders as “action central” for much of the
entrepreneurial world. Though he made his fortune in an almost invisible niche
by telling carpet cleaners how to crush the competition and turn their small local
businesses into money-churning machines, he is now among the most
well-known, respected, “complete marketing geniuses” in the world.
Joe Polish Consulting clients from many different countries each happily pay up to $20,000
a day just to hear his advise. His “boot camps” attract convention-sized audiences
full of famous entrepreneurs and many of the “superstars” of marketing and
advertising.
In a business environment bristling with false prophets and bad advice, Joe’s
unique mix of real-world experience and stunning financial success has earned
him a spot among the most trusted experts alive. His one-of-a-kind recorded
interview series, “The Genius Network” is a “Who’s Who” of super-savvy
marketing and advertising brilliance.
No one refuses an interview with Joe. He has the gift of gab and the insight of a
business veteran who’s earned his success. The “best in the biz” seek him out. He
knows the good, the bad, and the ugly of what’s working – and what’s not
working – on the Web, in infomercials, in direct response ads and direct mail, in
niche marketing, in personal coaching and in every critical area of the
entrepreneurial landscape.
The business world is moving faster than ever before. Staying close to the action
means paying attention to Joe Polish and Piranha Marketing.
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info@GeniusNetwork.com Phone: (480) 858-0008 Fax: (480) 858-0004
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Wyatt Woodsmall
Joe: Hello, this is Joe Polish, president of Piranha Marketing and founder of the
Genius Network Interview Series. You’re about to hear one of my Genius
Network interviews. I just want to thank you for taking the time to listen
to this and I hope you find it very useful.
If you want to find out more information about some of the
interviews and resources that can help you in your business, you can go to
www.Joepolish.com and we have a Joe Polish Recommends section, with
all kinds of resources and vendors and services and products that we
recommend that could help you in your business. Also, for more useful
interviews and a whole list of other people that I’ve interviewed, you can
go to www.GeniusNetwork.com.
Thanks, and enjoy the interview.
----------------------
Joe: Hello, this is Joe Polish, president of Piranha Marketing and founder of the
Genius Network Interview Series. Today, I’m going to be interviewing a
person that I’ve been encouraged to interview for a couple of years now,
by my very good friend, Mr. Eben Pagan, who’s the founder of the Altitude
Seminars and just a phenomenal businessperson.
Let me just preface this by saying his name is Wyatt Woodsmall.
He’s a PhD in philosophy, which he got from as Philosophy of Science
from Columbia University in New York City.
Wyatt, where are you at right now? Can you hear me okay?
Wyatt: Yeah, I can hear you great. I’m in Vienna, Virginia, right outside of
Washington, DC.
Joe: Wonderful. Wonderful. I’m at my home in Tempe, Arizona, so we’re

doing this interview over the phone. Let me just to give you some
background on how I actually met Wyatt. For all of my listeners, Eben,
who I do consider one of the smartest businesspeople I know and is a very
well-read and very much a student of the mind, has always told me that
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Wyatt Woodsmall
Wyatt is the smartest guy that he’s ever met. He just knows so much about
psychology and about human behavior, and Eben has encouraged me to do
this interview.
Finally, I got to meet Wyatt and we spent some time back and forth,
talking about setting up a Genius Network interview, and we’re finally
doing it. So, thank you so much for taking the time, Wyatt.
What I’m going to do before I ask you some questions is just read.
This is the only portion of the interview I’ll be reading anything. You’ve
got such an expansive background; I’m just going to point out some things
for our listeners, so they know who you are and some various things about
you.
Then, anything I leave out, please fill it in at the end.
Who is Wyatt Woodsmall? Like I mentioned, PhD in Philosophy

of Science from Columbia University in New York City. Worked for the
federal government as an intelligence research specialist and a master
modeler for 10 years. Been doing NLP, which is neurolinguistic
programming, for 30 years. He has been doing advanced behavioral
modeling for 25 years. He is the very first person ever certified as an NLP
Master Trainer by the NLP creator Richard Bandler.
Wyatt has mentored Tony Robbins. In the preface of Tony’s book
Unlimited Power, he gives two people credit: which are Ken Blanchard
and Wyatt Woodsmall.
He has conducted the Rainmaker Seminar, which is a high-end
sales training, based on modeling Sean McArdle, who is the greatest sales-
man in the history of the printing industry, in the world. Served as the
mind coach for the US Olympic diving team and modeled the top US
divers, including Greg Luganis and the top diving coaches, and delivered
trainings for both Olympic divers and coaches.
Spent six weeks in Yorkshire, in the UK, modeling 50 successful
entrepreneurs for the Yorkshire government and developed the Entrecode,
which is the DNA of entrepreneurship, and co-authored a couple of books,
Timeline Therapy and The Basis Of Personality with your student Tad
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I do James, and People Pattern Power with Wyatt’s wife Marilyne.

Also, with his wife Marilyne, he has co-authored two forthcoming
a lot of books, Michele Thomas: The Master Teacher and Vanishing Values: The
things, Cultural Crisis amongst many, many other things.
Joe... Recently, I saw you present at Eben Pagan’s Altitude conference,
which is a $10,000-a-person event, and, of course, you were fabulous.
You are just an encyclopedia of useful knowledge and wisdom for
entrepreneurs. So, I want to do whatever we can in the time we have
available, Wyatt, to share some of that with the listeners.
I guess what I’ll ask you is, is there anything I left out on this bio
that you think everyone should really know about you, that you’d like to
say, that I didn’t mention?
Wyatt: No, I think that’s complete. A bio’s always kind of embarrassing or

something. You listen to all that stuff and you think, “Is that really me?”
Joe: Okay, Wyatt. What I’m going to do during this interview is I’m going to
ask you to talk about a lot of the different things that you know. I guess
the first question is what exactly do you do?
Wyatt: Okay. I do a lot of things, Joe. I do executive coaching, high-end

coaching for people, particularly entrepreneurs that want to improve what
they’re doing. I do consulting, business consulting. I do training, as you
already mentioned. Most of my training is international. I’ve trained in
26 countries on five continents. I do writing and modeling. So, between
all of those things, about five hats, it keeps me really busy.
Joe: You must really enjoy training, I guess, to do not only the levels of
training you’ve done and also working with some of the top people in the
world that you’ve actually worked with and mentored and coached. Is
there something about the whole environment of just going out and doing
long-day trainings that you really enjoy, or is that the best way to actually
get an individual to understand what it is you do?
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One of
Wyatt: The kind of training I do is different than a lot of people’s training. What
my areas we really focus on is transformational training, which is something you’re
of interest familiar with because you actually do a lot of it yourself.
is human It’s not just teaching people information, it’s getting people to
actually apply it and actually change their lives.
difference. If it was just teaching people, I’d get bored very quickly. But it’s
designing exercises, designing programs, designing experiences, giving
people information, giving them understanding, integrating everything
together in such a way that they’re able to incorporate it and they’re able
to make changes in their lives. That’s what keeps me going and what I get
excited about.
Then, as I already said, a lot of my training is international. It’s
amazing, because I get an opportunity to interact with people in different
countries of the world and get to understand different cultures in ways I
otherwise wouldn’t.
A lot of my training, even more challenging, is through
translations. The last three years, I’ve spent a lot of time training in Arab
countries and Muslim countries, training in Arabic through translation and
then Turkish through translation. That’s been a really interesting
experience, to get a totally different view of a totally different culture. It
allows me to understand our own culture a lot better.
One of my areas of interest is human difference. It gives me an
opportunity, then, to train in different places and see how different people
respond to similar trainings, to learn all sorts of things about human being
and human nature and the human mind and the human heart.
Joe: Excellent. Of course, any sort of knowledge that you could give me here
would be not only useful for myself, but I’m sure quite fascinating and
beneficial to our listeners.
So, I’m going to mention some terms that people may not be
familiar with, but I know you’ll clarify them. I’m going to just ask you to
talk about a lot of different things that you are a world expert in.
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We do Advanced behavioral modeling is one of them. What is advanced

behavioral modeling and how is it an advance in training?
things
that were Wyatt: Modeling is a process of figuring out how experts or people that are
really really good at doing what they do, figuring out how they do it and then
designing a way to train other people to do it.
good at, Most training is based on somebody’s theory of what works. There
but we are people that are experts, who travel around the world frequently and do
dont trainings. The problem is that they really don’t know how they do what
they do. The evidence for that is if they actually did, their students would
really be as good as they are. But in most cases, that’s not the case.
know how Now, it’s not the expert’s fault. The challenge is that experts, like
we do it. all of us, operate out of unconscious competence. We do things that we’re
really good at, but we don’t really know how we do it. When we first
learn, we might have had to consciously do it. But now, we just do it at an
unconscious level.
So, modeling is a process of going in and figuring out how people
operate at an unconscious level, figuring out how they actually do what
they do, and then designing other ways to help people.
In a training arena, what would happen is let’s say you get sales
training, so you get people coming in and you get somebody that might
have been a sales trainer once, that’s good at what they do, and they’ve got
some theories about what works. They come in and they train people.
Sometimes, they get some results and, obviously, people do improve in
some way.
But what modeling is about is if you were to take a company, you
were to take the five top salesmen in the company, you would figure out
how they were doing what they were doing, and pass that knowledge on
to the other salesmen in the company.
What you’re then passing on is what actually works, what the
proven, successful people actually do – not what they think they do, but
what they actually do. It’s the best way to design any kind of training,
because it passes on the expertise that’s already there, that people have
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Modeling developed at an unconscious level actually selling that product in that

environment.
is an So, that’s a little bit of an idea what modeling is. People may have
incredibly been familiar with modeling. Some of your listeners undoubtedly have
powerful heard of Tony Robbins, so Robbins is one of the people who frequently
talks about modeling. I was one of Tony’s mentors at the very beginning,
activity. and I was involved initially in a project with him, that he wrote up, that
talks about an unlimited power, where we work with the US Army Rifle
Marksmanship Team, the US Army Pistol Team. He was involved in that
project and we were able to go ahead and model some of the top pistol
shooters and then design a program, and then we were able to cut the time
in half and were able to reduce the number of rounds that were needed to
qualify, and were able to increase the number of people that qualified.
So, modeling is an incredibly powerful activity. It’s really
exciting, Joe, for a couple of reasons. One, it’s allowed me to meet some
amazing people. When you get to deal with people that are real geniuses
or real experts at what they do, it gives you a totally different view and
understanding of what human beings are capable of. It just totally expands
then, once appreciation for what humanity is able to accomplish and what
people, when they put their mind to it and they’ve got the skills and
abilities, are actually able to do.
Then the next thing is to figure out how they do what they do and
then pass that on.
Now, there’s a lot of stuff out there that tells you what people do.
Every day, we’re in a situation where there’s something we want to do,
we’re capable of doing it, but we don’t do it, because knowing what to do
is not enough. We’ve got to be able to internally organize ourselves in
such a way that we can actually do it. We need the how-to.
Modeling is one of the few technologies that goes in and figures
out what people actually do. Then, once you’ve got that, then select a
suitably selected group of people and install that model in them, and
you’re able to increase their performance dramatically.
Most organizations, as you know, Joe, you have the famous
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Personnel Paredo’s Principle, which is the 80/20 rule, which is a very powerful rule.
What that says is in most organizations, 80 percent of the results
selection are produced by 20 percent of the people. That means 80 percent of the
is a people are only producing 20 percent of the results.
notoriously If you could go in and figure out, for that 20 percent that are
producing 80 percent of the results, what they’re doing, if you could
difficult transfer that to the other 80 percent that are only doing 20 percent of the
problem. results, you could increase the productivity of the organization 360 percent
overnight.
So, the possibilities of modeling are enormous. Also, another
byproduct of modeling is helping to identify people who have the ability.
Personnel selection is a notoriously difficult problem. There have been all
sorts of efforts, and people keep trying different things, and still they end
up not hiring people. Part of the challenge is that pre-selection always
buys you more than training. The belief you can train anybody to do
anything is obviously ridiculous. You’ve got to find the right people.
Modeling then, by figuring out what the basic skill sets are that are
needed and then figuring out ways to identify people that have that talent
or innate ability and then training them using the modeling process, is an
incredible, powerful process. Modeling can be used with virtually
anything. We’ve worked all the way from Olympic athletes to the world’s
greatest printing salesman, to one of the world’s greatest educators, to
assembly line operators in rural Georgia, who were at a plant of fasten roll
division, making label paper. We were able to go in and model what they
did and then train these people, a lot of which only had a high school or
grade school education, and increase the level to which they were able to
perform at, reduce scrap, save time, and everything else.
So, modeling is an amazing process, and it can be applied to
virtually anything.
Where we first started actually using it was in the US Army. We
went in, as I said, and we modeled pistol marksmanship that Tony Robbins
was involved in. Then I went on and modeled rifle marksmanship. We
did a variety of other modeling projects in the Army, some in the
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...then we intelligence community that I’m not at liberty to talk about, and were able
to produce some pretty amazing results.
install it So anyway, that’s what modeling’s all about, Joe.
in people.
Joe: There’s so many fascinating things that you said. I want to touch on a
couple of them. One being, let’s consider this interview as an example.
It’s one of the ways that I’m able to share knowledge and wisdom with
people. One of the things that I think about for Piranha Marketing that I
do for my clients is actually three words that everyone’s heard before. It’s
just put together in a certain combination, by my good friend Dan
Sullivan, which is—direction, confidence and capability.
I always say, “Okay, when someone listens to one of my Genius
Network Interviews, one of the things I want them to leave with is more
direction, more confidence and more capabilities in that particular expert’s
subject matter.”
The reason I call it Genius Network is because it’s a network of
people where I, through the process of questioning, am able to gain
wisdom and insights that I consider at a genius level. I think all human
beings have in them some area that you could call “genius,” if you were
able to at least capture it.
Through your process of modeling, you’ve been able to identify
expertise in people.
You said one thing, which is “then we install it in other people.”
What is the mechanism that you use to install behaviors and knowledge,
or however you would call it, into other people, so they can start
obtaining those same sorts of results? Obviously, you do it through
training. If you could elaborate a little bit on how a person gets that good
stuff that you’ve learned and identified in someone else, and how is it put
into him or her?
Wyatt: That’s an excellent question, Joe. You’ve really hit one of the critical
pieces on the head.
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If youre When I first started doing modeling, I found I could figure out how
people did what they did, but then I needed to train other people to do that.
going to So, when I first started off, that was kind of a wall.
change Then I realized I had to model training and figure out how you
people, actually did transfer skill and what the key elements on that were. That’s
been kind of a lifetime quest for the last 30 years. First to figure out how
first people learn and then how you train people based on how they learn.
theyve When we talk about installing then, it’s a process of a combination
got to be of a variety of things. If people are not able to change, we operate out of
a model that comes out of David McClellan, who as a great Harvard
motivated. psychologist who’s probably the leading expert in the world on
motivation.
He said, “If people can’t change, it’s for one of three reasons.” It’s
what he calls chance to, how to, what to. Then we added a fourth one,
which was able to.
If you’re going to change people, first they’ve got to be motivated.
So, that’s want to. You’ve got to make sure that they’re excited and that
they see value and that they want to invest the time, energy and resources
to acquiring the new skill.
Now, that’s not enough. First, they’ve got to be motivated. Next,
they’ve got to have a chance to. You’ve got to make sure you remove any
barriers in the system that is preventing them.
The next thing, then, is the how-to. The how-to then involves
training, but it involves a particular kind of training. It’s a training based
on understanding, which means that they’ve got experiences to go along
with the knowledge.
A lot of it involves rehearsing. It involves practicing things. It
involves focusing on teaching people the how-to. Also, a critical
component is going and helping the person remove any kind of internal
blocks that are preventing them from succeeding.
It’s amazing how almost everybody has some kind of internal
blocks, a lot of which we get from what we call the dis-educational system
that we carry with us throughout life, and disenabling beliefs that get in the
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A lot of way.
Part of it is going in and doing some psychological tune-up, and
issues are then the rest of it is practicing, to get people to do it with feedback. This
either is where coaching also comes in. The training, you need to actually have
training people involved in the aspect of doing what it is you’re teaching them.
You need somebody who knows what the key points are and that can give
problems or them high-quality feedback on what they’re doing well and what they can
motivation improve on, and then can help them go in and figure out what they need
problems. to do to be able to do it.
It comes down to a lot of issues are either training problems or
motivation problems. It’s amazing how organizations throw money in the
wrong place. So, we have what we call the Dirty Harry Test, to figure out
whether it’s a training problem or whether it’s a motivation problem.
The Dirty Harry is the eminent inspector Callahan of the San
Francisco Police Department. Dirty Harry, of course, is famous because
he carries a very large gun – a Smith and Wesson Model 29, 44 magnum,
with an 8-3/8-inch barrel.
So, Dirty Harry holds the gun to the side of your head, and Dirty
Harry’s favorite saying is, “What do you want, punk, change or die?”
Dirty Harry is pretty congruent. You know he’d like to pull the
trigger. If he holds the gun to the side of your head and you’re able to
change, then you had a motivation problem.
But if you’re not able to change, then it’s a training problem,
because you’re highly motivated but you’re still not able to do it.
The whole thing of motivation, once again, is critical but it may not
be enough. Knowing what to do is not enough, because all the time
people know what to do; trainings are filled with what to do. The
challenge is how do you actually do it. What are the steps that you go
through? How do you organize yourself?
You’re a good example, Joe. One of the things you’ve done in
your Piranha Marketing material, which is excellent, and in your tapes that
you put out, what you’ve done is you’ve chunked things down into small
parts, and you have then gone in an you explained the how-to. So, it’s not
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Installation just theory, it is not just information, it is procedures.

Then you tell people, “Go practice this. Do it!” You’ve got
of skills exercises there that are laid out as part of it.
really needs Now, the ideal thing is if you could actually then be one-on-one
to be a very with the people and give them feedback while you’re observing them
actually doing it.
sophisticated So, that’s a little bit, then, about what installing is about. It’s a real
process.. challenge. The whole training industry, in some ways, is a major scandal.
People invest a lot of money in training, but it does not produce the results
that it should.
Part of the problem is, frequently, that they don’t even have a way
of measuring whether training is successful or not.
I used to do some training for the federal government, and I kind
of stopped doing it because I decided it was kind of a waste of my time,
because the government would go in and, first, the big problem is how do
you actually evaluate performance. It’s a universal problem. Most of it is
some kind of subjective estimation.
How do you tell, for an employee, whether they’re being
successful or not? If they’re producing a number of widgets, at least you
have a quantitative measure. In most cases, you don’t. In most cases, it’s
qualitative. You don’t even know whether performance is improving or
not. So, you spend a lot of money on training, because you’ve got
nothing else to do, and then wonder what happens.
Whereas modeling trainings are focused on producing tangible
results, helping people to change.
We all know change is not easy. We all know that. We’ve got
habits that all of us have had all our lives, that we’d like to break, and we’d
like to create new habits.
Installation of skills really needs to be a very sophisticated process
that focuses on understanding the individual and understanding the skill,
and understanding what the preliminaries and what sub-skills are
necessary in order to do that, and then installing those.
So, that’s a little bit on installation.
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Pre-selection
Joe: That’s a lot, and that’s quite fascinating. I think, just from what you said,
buys more we’ll have caused a lot of the listeners to say, “My god, I’ve got to learn
than more about this.”
training. Fabulous stuff. You mentioned one thing, and I’ll ask you about
this real quickly, then I’ll go on. You said this line, “Pre-selection always
buys you more than training.” What do you mean by that?
Wyatt: Okay. There’s this belief in society that may be politically correct, that
you can train anybody to do anything.
But everybody realizes that’s ridiculous, because if God didn’t
give you the head or the hands or the heart, there’s things you’re never
going to be able to do.
So, you’re much better off to pre-select people that have the talent
or innate ability to learn or master whatever skill it is you want. They’re
going to be most successful and they’re going to be most happy.
Getting people that are not really good at it and then doing it
halfway doesn’t make them very happy, it doesn’t help their self-esteem,
and it just creates problems.
Personnel selection is figuring out who the people are who are
actually going to be able to learn and develop the task. It’s critical.
Another byproduct of the modeling process is going in and figuring out
what skills, what abilities do you actually need, that are going to allow you
to be successful at that?
So, that’s what I mean by pre-selection buys more than training.
Training is important. If you don’t have the right people, you’re wasting
your time, you’re wasting their time, you’re creating frustration, and
they’re frustrated.
The key is then to be able to figure out the critical variables that
allow you to identify who’s going to be successful. Then, these are the
people that you want to pre-select, and those are the ones you want to
train.
So, it’s a two-way street. It’s not just training, it is training and
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If people personnel selection.

I said originally there were four things: chance to, want to, how to,
are not able to. Able to is personnel selection. If people are not able to change,
able to you’ve got the wrong people, and you need to find the right people. You
change, need a combination of all four of these. This is a very powerful model to
analyze in any situation. If change is not occurring, either the system’s not
youve got allowing it – which is frequently common. As a consultant, all the time,
the wrong you get a situation where you come in and whoever hires you say, “We
people. want you to fix them.” And you go, “Wait a minute, they’re not the
problem. You’re the problem.” Of course, the people who hire you don’t
want to hear that. They don’t want to hear that the system’s the problem
and the system needs to change.
A lot of training, once again, doesn’t work because the people want
to change but the system won’t allow them or doesn’t reinforce the
changes you’ve made.
So, you’ve got to have a system, you’ve got to have people that
want to, that are motivated. They need to know how to and they need to
have the psychological ability, and then they need to be able to.
You need to have them select the right people that have got talent
and ability. These are going to be the four keys. This is a powerful model,
in any situation where change is not occurring, by analyzing these four
things.
Frequently, people will focus on one of the four and put all of their
eggs in that basket, and wonder why it doesn’t work.
Whereas what if they were to focus on all four of these and really
analyze what’s going on here, then they would have a much higher
percentage of being able to affect meaningful change.
Joe: Great stuff. That just gave me some enormous insight, too. It reinforces
so much of what I believe is one of the most key areas in marketing, which
is pre-selection of a prospect.
There’s so many people that they just try to distribute their
messages to the whole universe, and part of it is sifting, sorting and
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In the screening who it is you want to work with, so by the time they show up
you’ve not only saved yourself an enormous amount of time but you’ve
case of saved yourself an enormous amount of frustration, energy, and in many
experts, cases money, on where you target your marketing efforts on the right
frequently people versus the wrong people.
Some people, they just don’t get that. That’s fabulous, because it
we find a allows me to just really see applications at a much larger level than what
95/5 rule. I’ve been doing for many years.
There is one last thing about modeling. The way to model
someone, can you do this with people who are passed away, 100, 200, 300
years ago? What information, what do you look at in order to model
somebody?
Wyatt: That’s an interesting question. Normally in modeling, what I would want

to do is work with three to five experts and a couple of what I call
“contrast subjects.” What we’re doing is looking for what the experts are
doing that the non-experts aren’t. In some cases, what the non-experts are
doing that’s preventing them from succeeding.
This allows you, then, to begin to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Once again, each expert, the 80/20 rule applies to an expert. So, 80
percent of what an expert does is actually a waste of time, because it only
produces 20 percent of the results. But there’s 20 percent.
In the case of experts, frequently we find a 95/5 rule. So, five
percent of what they do produces 95 percent of the results. We’ve got to
go in and figure out what that is. We don’t want to copy everything
because if you copy everything, 95 percent is a waste of time. But five
percent is going to be the key.
Now, as far as modeling people from the past, this is much more of
a challenge because you don’t have direct access to them. You don’t get
to actually see them doing what they’re doing. There are certain things
you can model, depending on how aware they were of their own internal
process and how well they’ve described that, either in writing or, in some
cases, we do have film archives now of people that are dead and we can
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Im go back and look. Like if we were to analyze Martin Luther King’s
speeches, I had the good fortune to hear Dr. King speak on three occasions
focused on in my life, but many people were not that fortunate.
practical If we were to go back and then get his speeches in some way, and
solutions to go through and analyze, and then having access to other things he said
and understanding from his writings, you can put something together.
in a But that’s a lot of work. That’s, for me, something more for
business historians to do.
context. What I’m focused on is practical solutions in a business context.
Modeling is really helpful in three specific instances. One, it’s where
you’ve got a training problem, where you just can’t get people trained to
a high enough level or you don’t have time. Normally, we can cut
training time by about a third to a half. You’ve got to get people to a
higher level in a shorter period of time, where you’ve got experts. That’s
one place where you want to use modeling.
The second place is you’ve got somebody that’s worked for a
company all of their life, that’s got incredible skill and ability, and they
walk out the door when they retire and you’ve lost 50 years of expertise.
So, capturing that and putting it into some kind of a knowledge
system that’s resident in that company then, is another critical part of the
process. Then there’s the personnel selection, figuring out what are the
talents and abilities, so you can hire the right people in the future.
These are three of the critical areas where modeling applies. So
yes, we could do people in the past. That would be a lot of work and it
would be interesting, produce interesting results.
Most of what we do is we work with living people and we work
with people either who were brought in because there’s a training problem
that nobody can really solve, where you’ve got to increase your level of
expertise really rapidly, or you’ve got to get a lot of people trained up to a
high skill level in a short period of time, of where you’ve got somebody
that’s about to leave or people about to leave and you need to capture their
expertise before they walk out the door and 50 years of investment in that
individual goes down the drains.
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I wanted
Joe: Excellent. Good stuff. Let’s talk about people patterns, then. You wrote
to call a book called People Pattern Power: The 9 Keys To Business Success. If
the book you could, I’d like you to just explain what people patterns are?
The
Wyatt: Okay, great. I wrote the book with my wife, so my wife, Marilyne is one
Science of the people that is my co-author of the book, and she’s also one of the
of people that I do modeling with. So, we frequently work as a team. The
Idiots. stuff I’m talking about on modeling is also she’s a key part of the process.
She was a key component in writing the book.
What people patterns are, we’ve got this area we call human
typological analysis, which is the science of human difference. There are
basically two different views when we look at other people. One is, “Hey,
everybody’s the same, everybody’s like me.” We assume everybody
thinks the way we do, acts the way we do, behaves the way we do. Very
quickly, we realize that’s not the case.
The other extreme is to go and say, “Hey, everybody’s different.
Everybody is totally and absolutely unique.”
But people are different. The difference is made up of different
combinations of a small number of factors, so that there are patterns in the
difference. There are patterns in our behavior.
So, people patterns is about detecting and utilizing these patterns
in order to communicate effectively.
When I wrote the book, what I wanted to call it was The Science
Of Idiots. Basically, it boils down, Joe, and you’ll like this, the question
is how is it possible to be an idiot? If we ask that as a serious question,
then we come up with, at first, do you know people that are idiots? Most
people know one or more people and they qualify that way. You find
idiots in weird places. It’s like you discover them frequently in your own
home, which is even more upsetting.
In any case, how is it possible to be an idiot? So, we’ll say people
are idiots because they’re either dumb, they’re stupid, God didn’t give
them common sense, they don’t know how to think right, or else they’re
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Everybodys mean, spiteful, vindictive or else they just want to make life miserable for
us.
an idiot... The real reason it’s possible to be an idiot is because people think
there are differently than we do. They’ve got different patterns. They pay attention
just to different things. They operate in different ways.
Amazingly enough, from their perspective, we’re the ones that are
different idiots. So, we can either curse the darkness and complain about how did
kinds of I end up in a world with so many mean, spiteful, vindictive people that are
idiots. making life miserable for me, or we can figure out what exact kind of idiot
they are. Because everybody’s an idiot, there are just different kinds of
idiots. Once we know what kind of an idiot they are, then we can
communicate with them because we know the patterns, we know the way
they think, we know the key variables behind what they’re doing.
It turns out, Joe, the only real idiots are the people who don’t
understand that everybody’s an idiot, and think that they’re the only one
who’s sane and everybody else is crazy.
So, people patterns, we went through and there are a lot of things
out there on different types. The Myers-Briggs is the most commonly
used psychological instrument in the world, and Eben uses that a lot. He
really likes that.
The ideogram is a very powerful model that divides people into
nine types and three subtypes.
There a lot of these type models out there, and then there a lot of
simple four quadrant models that are frequently used.
What we did is we looked at that, Marilyne and I, to try to see what
are the variables that underlie these. So, take something like the ideogram
or the Myers-Briggs. The Myers-Briggs, you put people in 16 boxes. But
why do people fit in those boxes? We tried to figure out what are the real
key variables that underlie those, and those are the things we’ve identified
in people patterns.
We could go into the Myers-Briggs, we could go into the ideogram
and we could point out, “Okay, these are what the actual differences are
that distinguish one type from another. So, it’s like these are the key
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Were not variables, this is the code that allows you to read people.”
People pattern powers, then, is the way to figure out where people
much are coming from. First, you’ve got to know yourself, so you don’t project
different everything on other people.
than a Once you know what your own patterns are, then you’ve got to be
able to detect other people’s patterns. In the book, we talk about how to
donkey. detect the patterns.
Were just Then once you’ve detected them, the key thing is how do you
a little utilize that to communicate effectively with people?
more Joe: Let’s talk about motivation patterns. Can you talk about two motivation
sophisticated. patterns and how to use them in sales and marketing, as an example?
Wyatt: Absolutely. Once again, we know a lot about motivation, it’s just we don’t
believe it. We’ve known it all our life, but everybody says, “That’s crass
and that’s mean,” but it’s actually the way it is.
So basically, there’s only two ways to motivate people. It goes
back to the traditional ways you motivate a donkey or a jackass.
Now, jackasses are notoriously stubborn and they don’t like to pull
the cart down the road. So, how do you get them to move? There’s
usually two ways to move them: what we call carrots and sticks.
Donkeys like carrots, so you put a long stick, and on the end of the
stick you hang a string with a carrot, and you put the carrot in front of the
donkey’s nose and the donkey keeps moving forward because it thinks it’s
going to get the carrot, so it can eat the carrot.
Or the other thing is you beat it on the rear end with a stick, and
the donkey thinks something’s beating it on the rear, so it’s moving
forward to try to get away from what’s beating it on the rear.
Now, in a lot of ways, we’re not much different than a donkey. It’s
just we’re a little more sophisticated. So, people either respond to carrots
or sticks. They either do things because they want things or they do things
because they want to avoid things.
Most people have a pattern. Now, the pattern may apply to almost
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He had to what we call cross contextual to many areas, or it may be in a specific

context.
put the Now, in sales, this is a great example. In sales, salesmen come in
fear of and they talk about all of the incredible features, and then translate them
God into into benefits. These are designed to appeal to people who are moving
toward. But half the world is moving away from, and giving them carrots
people. is not going to do any good. What they need is they need to be beaten with
sticks. They need something that’s going to point out their pain.
So, like I talked about, one of the people I modeled was Sean
McArdle, who was the world’s greatest printing salesman, who was able
to sell $125-million of printing in one year. Nobody’s come close to that.
One of the things that he was very aware of is that a lot of people
were buying printing because they were moving away from. They had
quality problems and they had other problems.
So, what he would do is he realized, in many cases, you had to put
the fear of God into people. You had to find out what their worst night-
mare was. You had to camp out in their pain.
Now, I know you’re aware of this, in going through your Piranha
Marketing material. The carpet salesman who’s out there, so a classic
example of move away from in carpet cleaning is you’re telling people,
“Hey, there are dust mites there! There are bugs, there’s disease in your
rugs. Do you want disease spread? Do you want these things?”
For people that move away from, you can build up fairly quickly
and they’ll go, “Oh my God, I didn’t realize that!” They’re ready, then, to
move away from that.
Whereas if you tell them all the features and benefits that isn’t
necessarily going to do anything. To move away from, you’ve got to give
them something to move away from. Whereas, there may be some people
who like clean rugs and cleanliness is important to them, and this is
something they’re moving toward. You’ve got to provide that.
But in any kind of marketing, you need both the carrot and the
stick, and in your overall marketing you need a mixture. Some is going to
appeal to one; some is going to appeal to the other.
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Oh my, Now, there are certain whole industries that are basically
move-away, like insurance sales. People don’t buy insurance because they
I dont love insurance. They buy insurance because they’ve got to have it and
want that because of all of the horrible things that might happen if they don’t have
to happen it. So, you tell horror stories about how somebody didn’t have insurance
and then the spouse died, and all of the horrible things that happened.
to me! People go, “Oh my God, I don’t want that to happen to me!”
Take for example dentists. Why do people go to dentists? A few
people may like a bright smile, and that may be okay, but most people are
going, “I don’t like pain, and I go to the dentist because I don’t want to get
tooth decay because it’s going to lead to pain, and I want to avoid that pain.
So, the dentist is a pain, but he’s a lesser pain.”
It’s amazing how, in marketing, so many salesmen are all focused
totally on the toward and they ignore the move-away-from, which is one
of the most critical elements.
You need to have a balance and, ideally, figure out for each
individual, what is his or her particular preference. Like in car sales, the
person pulls into the lot and they want to buy a car. One of the first things
you want to find out is, “Okay, what car did you have? What did you like
about the car? What didn’t you like about the car? And what do you want
in a new one?”
A lot of people want simple, safe, reliable transportation, because
they’re tired of cars breaking down, they’re tired of cars costing a lot of
money to fix, they’re getting more tired of high gas cost and everything.
So, telling them all about the incredible features, where actually all they
want to know is that it’s safe, reliable transportation, and the features
simply distract them and take them away from what you really need to
focus on.
One of the keys to marketing is you really need to sit down and
figure out what is it people want and what is it people don’t want, and what
are they avoiding, particularly for whatever product you’re selling? Then
you need ways that, in our book, we talk about to quickly discover which
ways people are going.
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There are Based on this, then, to tailor your thing one-on-one to that
specific individual in the sales, and in your marketing to make sure that
three you’ve got a mixture of both, so that you hit both ends of the market.
different
kinds of Joe: Wyatt, in your book you have a chapter on motivation and another on
motive. What’s the difference?
managers...
Wyatt: That’s a great question. Motivation is the toward and away from that we
talked about. But that’s only half of the story.
The other half of the story is what we call motive. Now, once
again, I mentioned earlier, David McClellan. David McClellan was a
Harvard psychologist who unfortunately passed away several years ago,
who’s generally regarded as the world’s leading expert on motivation.
What McClellan basically said is people operate out of one of three
fundamental motives, and he called these motives power, affiliate and
achievement.
Power people want control. Power people want influence. Power
people want people to do what they want them to do. Their whole life is
about control, about domination, and about avoiding being dominated.
Affiliation people want to be liked. They want harmony. They
want people to get along. They want people to work together.
Achievement people want to get something done. They’re
task-oriented. They’re accomplishment-oriented. They’re success-
oriented. They’re driven in order to succeed. In any organization, there’s
always a systemic conflict between these three different things that are
present.
There are three different kinds of managers. The power manager
is a boss. When they tell you to do something, they want to hear, “Yes,
sir!” They don’t want to hear when or where, they want to hear how high,
while they’re in the air.
The achievement is the manager. The classic definition of
manager is someone that organizes goods and resources, material and
human, in order to achieve or accomplish an objective. So, it’s about
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Profit getting something done.

Then the affiliation manager doesn’t necessarily like to be called
equals the manager, they want to be a mother hen or a friend. They want to do
volume things that are going to make them popular. They get by on relationships.
times This whole topic is one, Joe, that I can spend a couple days just
talking about it. But let’s apply a little bit of it to marketing and to sales.
margin. The University of Chicago did an exhaustive study in the banking
industry, on sales. They found out something very interesting. They
found out a third of the customers were rate-oriented, a third of the
customers were relationship-oriented, and a third of the customers were
convenience and were focused on what they were receiving.
So, what happens is a lot of organizations make the big mistake –
which you don’t, because you talk about it in your Piranha Marketing
material – of assuming that everybody’s simply cost-oriented, everybody
is rate-oriented.
You don’t want to go after the rate-oriented customers, for two
reasons: one, they have no loyalty. They’re going to go to whoever’s
cheapest. Second is that they always want the cheapest price.
Now, there’s a simple formula. The formula is profit equals
volume times margin.
What happens is salesmen will cut margin in order to increase
volume. Frequently, they cut the margins to where there’s no profit.
So, the secret is high margins and volume.
Going after the rate people, you don’t pay attention to the
affiliation people and the achievement people, so you lose two-thirds of
your base. Second is you’re not making any margin, so your profits go
down.
You are one of the people who says, “Raise your prices,” and other
things.
The real thing is what you need to be focusing on is two kinds of
clients. First are the relationship clients. Relationship clients want a
relationship. They want a personal banker. They want somebody that is a
friend that they can trust, that they can have a relationship with, that they
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Im going know will be there for them, that they know will go out of their way.
Building a relationship is absolutely critical. A third of these
to use a people will pay more money for a relationship. They’ll pay more money
sports to deal with somebody they like, because that’s important to them.
model... Now, the third type of people are the ones that are service-oriented.
They want service. They’re the achievement-oriented people, and they’re
willing to pay for service. They’re willing to pay more for service.
So, I know in the carpet cleaning, you talk about providing a
high-end service and that, once again, as you said, raise your prices so,
once again, you can provide better service, you can provide high-end
service, and the customers are going to reward you. You’re going to get
the customers.
The customers mostly rewarding you there are the ones that are
service-oriented, that are the achievement people.
Now, also, we get even more sophisticated. What we do is we
combine motivation and motive. When we do this, we get six different
basic motivation patterns.
To explain this a little to you, let me go through a model, because
it’s one I think a lot of people can understand. I’m going to use a sports
model. This is like coming out of our work with the Olympic diving team,
where we found these were so obvious, the six different motives that the
divers had and the coaches had.
So, let me give you six different approaches. One of these is going
to be you and one of them you’re going to like, and some of these people
you’re not going to like. Let’s talk about it in the process of athletic
competition.
First, there’s the move towards power. These people are about
will. They’re about domination. They’re about will to win. They’re about
doing whatever it takes. They’re about defeating the other person.
Their philosophy is there’s no greater thrill in life than to stand on
the winner’s platform and to look down at all those who you have
defeated, who you have vanquished, who you have beaten due to your
superior determination, your superior will to win. As you look at that look
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in their face, there’s no greater feeling of power and accomplishment, as

you glower down at them and see their cowardly looks below you.
Now, those people obviously are hard to beat, because they’re
going on sheer willpower, sheer adrenalin.
Now, the flipside of that is there’s nothing more humiliating,
there’s nothing more degrading than to allow yourself to be beaten, to
allow yourself to be defeated, to look up at the face of that smug, pompous
bastard and to realize that they beat you, that they defeated you. You
swear you’ll do whatever it takes never, ever to allow yourself to be
beaten again. So, that’s the power people.
Then you’ve got the achievement people. Achievement athletes
get by because of technique, of skill. They practice harder. They develop
more and more difficulty. In diving, they do dives of a higher degree of
difficulty. Because they’ve got the skill, that’s what they focus on. So, for
them, it’s interesting. For them, success is not necessarily about winning
and beating everybody else. Success is about creating a goal and
achieving that goal, and doing whatever it takes to achieve that goal. You
could finish dead last in the standings, but you can still win, from this
perspective, if you achieve your goal.
For this person, there’s no greater thrill than to stand on the
platform and to realize that it’s due to hard work, skill, to development, to
creating the right technique, to setting your goal, to doing what you need
to do to achieve your goal, to accomplish the goal and this incredible
feeling of satisfaction that comes from that.
Now, the flipside is there’s nothing worse than failure. You’ve got
nobody to blame for it but yourself. You didn’t try hard enough. You
didn’t work hard enough. You didn’t do what you needed to do, and you
failed. All you can do is hang your head in shame and promise yourself
that you’ll never allow this to happen again. Next time, you’ll work
harder. Next time, you’ll do what you need to do to achieve whatever goal
you set out to achieve.
The third type is the affiliation. In diving, this is interesting
because most coaches are either power coaches or they’re achievement
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You just sit coaches. They’re mostly either what we call the heaving and believing,
which are the power coaches, or they’re the technique coaches.
there and There’s a certain number, a few people that are basically affiliation.
bask in the What they realize is there’s a judge, and that the judge is giving a score,
admiration. and part of it’s based on style. So for them, it’s about performing.
What the ‘toward affiliation’ person would say is that there’s no
greater thrill than to stand on the diving board and to look out at your fans,
and to leap into the air and to spin 3.5 times in the air, and to rip the water
vertically. Before you even return to the surface, you can begin to hear the
greatest sound any human being can ever hear. As you break the surface
to a thunderous round of applause from your fans, knowing you’ve
brought joy to the hearts of your fans, and you just sit there and bask in the
admiration and in the knowledge that you brought joy to people and
rewarded your fans.
Now, the flipside of that is nobody likes a loser. There’s nothing
worse. People are so fickle. They cheered for you, but they cheered more
for him. Now, they see everybody over around them, surrounding them
and congratulating them. Nobody’s talking to you. Nobody cares about
you. Nobody wants to hear from you. Even your mother doesn’t want to
talk to you. You go home and walk into the house, and the dog runs out
the door. Nobody wants you. Nobody loves a loser. You cannot tolerate
to be a loser.
In any case, you’ve got these six different motives. So, let’s talk a
little bit about now beginning to apply them to the context of sales and
marketing.
For the power people, once again, a lot of salesmen are power
salesmen. The power salesmen, in some ways, gave sales a bad
reputation, because the power salesman was all about domination, control,
manipulation on the downside, in order to get a sale.
You’re basically out there in a contest of will, in order to try to
force the person to buy. If you’re in a contest of will with a power person,
then they want to impose their will on you. They want to control you.
You can usually tell the power person as soon as you meet them,
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Your as soon as you shake hands with them. Usually, they’re going to use a very
strong handshake and they’re going to start telling you what to do and start
carpets directing you.
are out of If you’re cleaning carpets and you’ve got a carpet customer that’s
control! a power person, then you’ve got to play Slave Theater. You’ve got to be
able to do what they want. If you provide what they want, then they’re
going to love you and they’re going to do business with you.
On the other hand, the people who move away from
powerlessness, then, once again, they don’t want to be out of control.
Then you would say something like, “Your carpets are running your life,
for crying out loud! Your carpets are out of control. You can’t allow your
carpets to be out of control. You’ve got to take control over the situation.
We’ve got to get these things cleaned.”
Whereas this would seem strange to some people, this is the kind
of approach that’s going to work with these people that are move away
from power.
The affiliation people, once again, you’ve got to build a
relationship with them. As my friend Sean, once again, the $125-million
printing salesman says, “You want them to be happy to see you come and
they want to be sad when they see you go, because they enjoy you being
there. They enjoy your presence. They enjoy working with you. They
enjoy being around you. You bring joy to them.”
So, you’re not just in the carpet cleaning business, you’re in the joy
business. You’re there, and your goal is to make them happy. You build
a relationship with the people and take the time in order to build that, and
that’s going to lead to all sorts of repeat business.
Then there’s the move away from, once again. Nobody likes a
loser, or something. Social proof’s one of the things that’s going to appeal
to these people. It’s like, “Dirty carpets! You got neighbors coming? Do
you want your neighbors to walk into your house? Do you want your
mother-in-law to walk into the house and see this carpet, for crying out
loud? What are they going to think of you? What are people going to
think of you if you walk around with these dirty carpets, with these carpets
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You dont that are not clean, with germs in your carpets and all of these things?”
You’re now getting them to move away from the negative things
need to be that other people are going to think about.
an expert Then the last, once again, is the achievement. These people, in
at carpet carpet cleaning, it’s like, “You want to get your carpets cleaned?” These
people are going to be interested in technology. “We’ve got the most
cleaning to efficient and effective technology that’s able to rapidly, quickly,
understand efficiently come in and clean all of your carpets and leave them in superb
how to condition. We’re able to do it as effectively and efficiently as possible.
We offer all sorts of customization, because these people want service.
sell it. They want customization.”
So, the more you can stress that, the more valuable it’s going to be.
Then in the case of moving away from failure, I don’t like to say
this, but some of the other people that are in the business don’t have the
latest equipment, they haven’t invested in the technology that’s necessary.
They’ll come in and they actually do stuff, but it actually leaves grime and
suds and stuff in your rugs that, over time, is going to cause deterioration
of your rugs. It’s not really achieving and accomplishing what you need
to have done. You need to focus on this.
Once again, that’s off the top. You’re the expert.
Joe: I’m sitting there going, “Man, you’re doing a pretty good job for an
industry that you don’t know a lot about.” But it goes to show you that
layering all of your knowledge that you have into any particular industry,
you can clearly see the application.
You don’t need to be an expert at carpet cleaning to understand
how to sell it. As a matter of fact, listening to you, you could probably do
a fabulous job knowing absolutely nothing about it, because you know so
much about the human being, which is really the person that we’re selling.
That is the deal.
Wyatt: Exactly.
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There are Joe: Can you do me a favor? I don’t remember what I wrote, because I don’t
have my notes in front of me from when I listened to you speak at Altitude,
two but I do remember how you define intrinsic motivation. What I do
kinds of remember is that I was pretty fascinated with what you had to say about it.
motivation. So, can you just simply define what that means for the listener,
intrinsic motivation?
Wyatt: Okay. There are two kinds of motivation. One is extrinsic, which is
external rewards, which usually, in a situation, is whatever your salary is
or your vacation or your benefits. These are things that are extrinsic. So,
they’re outside of you.
Intrinsic are things inside of you. There are things that you
intrinsically enjoy doing. There are certain things we enjoy and there are
certain things we don’t enjoy. Those things we do enjoy, then, are those
that correspond to the basic things in our personality.
So, if we’re an affiliation person, we basically like relationships.
We like people that we enjoy being around. We like harmony. We like to
get along with people.
If we’re working in an environment where that’s there, then we’re
motivated to work there because the people there wake up every morning
and it’s not, “Oh my God, we’ve got to go to work.” It’s, “Oh, great! I’ve
got all of my friends there and I’m looking forward to my friends.”
The people may not be getting paid as much, but, once again, it’s
more important to them the conditions that they’re working, who they’re
working with, and enjoy the people.
If it’s achievement, it’s more about getting something done. “I
don’t want to go to work again. There’s all sorts of roadblocks where I
can’t get anything done, I can’t accomplish anything.” But if they have a
feeling of achievement, that’s an incredibly powerful feeling. It is like,
“Gee, it’s great, I feel like I’m accomplishing something. I’m doing
something.”
It’s sad, but so much often in life, it’s like we keep our nose to the
grindstone and work and work, and seemingly get nothing. Whereas if
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High we’ve got a feeling of accomplishment or achievement, that’s an internal

motivation that says, “That’s what life is about,” and gives us incredible
Achievers satisfaction.
are good Or, if it’s a control person, it’s about controlling. “I like managing,
at doing because I like telling people what to do.” That’s the downside of power.
The upside of it is what’s called socialized power, which are the people
things who make the best managers. These are people that are power for the
themselves, common good. Hey, this is an opportunity to go in and to coordinate, work
but they with people, manage them, influence them, and get them to work, to do
together as a team, to do what we need to do to accomplish an end. So,
dont know they’re able to use their power, their influence in order to get things to
how to happen.
delegate. It’s interesting. The center for creative leadership in North
Carolina did an exhaustive study on managers that derail in moving from
middle to upper management. They found that the primary cause of
derailment was a lack of interpersonal skills.
What happened is you had a lot of people that were high-achievers
and they really worked hard, but the problem with high-achievers is they
don’t delegate. They got to the point where they couldn’t do everything
themselves and they needed to get other people to do it. Or, they got to
the point where they were promoted, and now they had to be able to
influence the people at their peer level in order to compete for the
services and resources in order to operate.
So, high-achievers are good at doing things themselves, but they
don’t necessarily make good managers because they don’t know how to
delegate and they don’t know how to get other people to do things.
What they need is a secondary skill. So, they either need influence
skills, power skills, or they need affiliation skills, charm skills. They need
a secondary one that’s going to allow them to be effective. These are the
way the stuff begins to come together in a practical way.
Joe: Okay, Wyatt, there’s so much stuff here that I could ask you. How many
patterns are there? We’ve covered two.
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Weve
Wyatt: We’ve covered two out of nine, so there are another seven that are in the
just book and that also apply to sales and marketing.
scratched In the book, what we do is we take these nine patterns and we
the explain what the pattern is, we explain how to detect what somebody’s
pattern is, and then we talk about how to utilize it. We do it in five
surface particular contexts – the context of sales, the context of negotiation, the
on this... context of management, in the context of personnel selection, in the
context of training.
So, we’ve just scratched the surface on this, and there’s a lot more
there to be dug up.
Joe: What I’d like to do is ask you to do a future interview, based on the
response we get from this one. I could talk with you for a week on all this
stuff. It’s just fascinating. I know that our listeners are finding this really
valuable.
If you want to go deeper with people patterns, of course, get Wyatt
and Marilyne’s book People Pattern Power, and I’ll ask you to give out
contact information at the end of the interview, Wyatt, on where they can
locate the book and get a hold of that.
So, let me switch gears and ask you about Entrecode. Can you talk
about Entrecode?
Wyatt: Okay. Entrecode was a very interesting modeling project. What happened
is there’s a direct correlation, Joe, between the GDP of a country and the
number of high-growth startups.
In the two countries that have got the high-growthest startups are
the two that have the highest GDP, which is Israel and the United States.
Every government wants high-growth startups; because these are
companies that start and then grow rapidly, that employ other people, and
that therefore promote the economy of the community.
In Yorkshire, in England, there’s an area that used to be an English
steel industry, and it basically has gone belly-up. It’s actually one of the
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The things bigger poverty areas in Europe. It’s hard for us to think of England as
being a poverty area, but there is a part of England that used to be the steel
that allowed area, around Sheffield and Yorkshire, that is now a major poverty area.
them to be The European Union is actually pouring money in there.
successful in One of the things that we wanted to do was figure out, “Okay, there
are people there that are succeeding. So, what does it take to be a
starting a successful entrepreneur in Yorkshire, to create a high-growth startup?”
business We went in and, over a period of six months, about one week a
became month for six months, I went to England and interviewed 50 successful
entrepreneurs in Yorkshire. Then, Marilyne and I tape-recorded it.
major Marilyne listened to the interviews and we analyzed all of the stuff and
problems came up with what we call the Entrecode, or the DNA of entrepreneurship.
when it We divided it into seven different areas. One was experience.
What do the entrepreneurs actually do? What are the people patterns they
came to operate out of? What are certain personality traits they have? What
growing motivates them? What are their values? What are their skills? What are
that the processes? Then, what actual techniques do they use?
The interesting thing about this project was that we came up with,
business. as I said, what we call the Entrecode, the DNA of entrepreneurship, that
we can begin to identify, fairly quickly, who’s got entrepreneurial ability
and who doesn’t.
The second thing is that most entrepreneurs, the things that allow
them to be successful in starting a business become a major problem when
it comes to growing a business. One of the challenges was that we
learned, after a while, fairly quickly, we could go in and analyze, “Okay,
these people are going to be able to grow maybe to two-million and then
they’re going to plateau,” or “These people are going to get to ten- million
and they’re going to plateau.”
We could tell where the problem was that was going to prevent
them, or the thing that was going to initially start their growth was going
to then limit their growth, so that we could then consult to them and say,
“These are things you’re going to need to do if you want to continue to
grow the business.”
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This is It was really exciting. Once again, these are 50 successful

entrepreneurs. Let me just give you one example here, because we could
their go on talking about this, once again, for days.
mindset. One of the things is we came up with two kinds of entrepreneurs.
In fact, it One kind of entrepreneur is what we call a technical entrepreneur, and they
were ones that usually are associated with a university or something, that
can drive have come up with a technological breakthrough and they were exploiting
them that technological breakthrough.
crazy. In Yorkshire, where we were operating out of, there were very few
of those. There were maybe five out of 50. Most of them were people that
had worked in a business, normally for anywhere from five to 20 years. In
the business, they had the customers that were requesting things.
Customers had needs that they were continually asking for. In some cases,
they’d go to the people that were in the business and who had employed
them and said, “People are asking for this.” The business would say,
“Well, we’re not going to meet that need. That’s not what we’re doing.”
After a while they decided, “Hey, people want this, I can provide
this service myself.” We call these commercial entrepreneurs. So, they
came up with a need. They knew there was a need because they were in
the business and customers were asking for that need. They created a way
to fulfill that need, and then they generated a business in order to be able
to do that.
Now, a lot of entrepreneurs are what we call difference people.
This is another one of the people patterns. What they’re doing is they see
what makes them successful is they’re not doing the same thing that
everybody else has done. They’ve come up with a new innovation, a new,
creative, different way of doing things. They’re continually thinking in
terms of difference.
This is their mindset. In fact, it can drive them crazy. They can
never rest. They become hypercritical whenever they go out anywhere.
They go out to dinner, they’re immediately scanning the environment and
scanning the restaurant, and thinking of all of the things that could be
improved. They go to a store; they’re thinking about how they could do it
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If you can better, how things could be different, how things could be changed.
This mindset is what leads to creativity and innovation. But at the
solve the same time, it can create a problem at a certain point, because in growing
problem, the business, if you’re trying to do everything differently, you’re not going
then you to have a stable business.
So, the problem is it’s like they want to be changing people, they
become a want to change organizations, and they’re continually changing things. In
lifetime changing things, they’re going to have problems in the stability of the
friend. business.
The very thing that allowed them to be creative and innovative and
come up with a unique product is not the type of thing that’s going to allow
them to be a successful businessperson and build a successful company,
particularly a high-growth company.
If they’ve got a successful enough product, then they can get up
and running and they can start to grow. But fairly quickly, they’re going
to run into problems because their management style is going to be based
on perpetual change.
What they really need is to get somebody that can come in and put
stable systems in place to grow the business and keep it going.
We identified about 22 characteristics of entrepreneurs, and so we
can go and sit down, and we’ve got instruments that Marilyne and I have
created, that allow us to determine if somebody has these characteristics.
Then, we’ve got a whole series of skills and processes that we’ve found
the successful entrepreneurs use that allow them to grow the business.
One of them, which we talked about, is the consumer focus that is
problem seeking, problem solving, and friend for life.
If somebody’s got a problem and if you can then find the problem
and if you can solve the problem, then you become a lifetime friend of him
or her. So, this is one of the strategies that successful entrepreneurs do.
Eben talks about an altitude. Find the customer that already needs
what you’ve got. You talked about earlier, and you’re the proponent of
this, instead of the shot gunning and going out and just trying to throw
everything out there and shoot the arrows out in the thing, if you want to
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Im an get the bull’s eye, then you’re going to find who are the people that need
what you want?
engineer, It’s like problem-seeking, problem solving, friend for life. Find the
I ought to people.
be able to So, there’s a series of these things that we also detected, and then
one fast story and it will be the last on this for the moment, because I know
figure out we’re a little short on time, one of my favorite entrepreneurs was a
how to do gentleman in England named Hugh Facey. He works with Sheffield Iron
that! Works. He made wire.
He would make wire and the people that used wire, obviously, are
farmers that put it around their property. Like any good entrepreneur, he
was out talking to his customers. So, he’s out one day, talking to one of
the farmers that’s stringing wire, and he says, “Well, you’re using our
wire. Is there anything we could do? Give me some comments and
everything.” The farmer said, “You know, one of the problems with wire
is, of course, it breaks.”
I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, I actually did this myself,
years ago, when I was a park ranger, and you’d have the fences and every
spring you’d have to walk along the fences and where the wire would
break you’d have to splice the wire. You’d have to get a puller, a thing that
puts tension, and you’d have to put a splice into the wire, and it would be
rusted. If it was barbed wire, you’d have to use gloves and it’s a major
pain.
So, this guy said, “If somebody could come up with a very quick,
simple way to splice the two pieces of wire together, they’d make a
fortune.”
Hugh Facey thought, “Gee, I’m an engineer, I ought to be able to
figure out how to do that.” So, he went back and he started thinking about
it, and he came up with a little device he called a gripple. The gripple,
then, is simply a little device that’s maybe about three inches by two
inches, probably even a little shorter than that, and you put the two wires
in, the two ends that are broken, and it’s got cams in it that holds them in
place.
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They try He was able to create this, and it revolutionized the way that
people could mend fences. Now, he sells gripples worldwide, and then he
to do figured out other things he could do for them.
everything, One of my favorite quotes was from him. Here’s one of my
and they favorite quotes. His quote was, “First things first, second things not at
all.”
end up So, one of the problems is, with a lot of people, one of the reasons
never a lot of people are not successful as entrepreneurs is because there’s so
getting many possibilities, they try to do everything, and they end up never
getting anything done.
anything Whereas Facey realized that what you need is first things first and
done. other things not at all. So, figure out what the most important thing is and
do that.
The greatest enemy, one of the things we found was one of the
greatest enemies of entrepreneurs, is distractions. Everybody thinks
possibilities are good, that options are your friend. Actually, possibilities
are not necessarily good because they distract you, because they take you
off in different directions, because when you’re trying to do 50 things you
can’t do one thing.
Eben talks about multitasking and the importance of not
multitasking and single focus. And that’s what Hugh Facey was talking
about.
One of the challenges then, for a lot of people, is a lot of
entrepreneurs, or so-called entrepreneurs, are wanna-be entrepreneurs.
They’ve got all of these great ideas, “I could do this, I could do this, I
could do this,” and they do a little energy here, a little energy there, a
little energy there, and they dissipate all of their energy and they never get
anything really done. In order to get anything done, you’ve got to focus.
You’ve got to put all of your energy on one thing, the first thing first, and
get that to happen.
Joe: One last thing I want to ask you. At the end, I’d like you to explain where
people can further go deep with Entrecode and how the can access your
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He was research, your insight, and learn more about it. Because I know for a fact
that a lot of people listening are going to absolutely want to go deep with
just an this.
amazing Because of time, again, I would love to do another interview with
guy... you. I want to talk to you about Michel Thomas. You modeled this
individual for, I believe, about five years or so?
Wyatt: Yes.
Joe: He’s a guy that can train people to speak a language in five days. And I’d
like to ask you simply what did you learn from him, because your new
book is about Michel Thomas.
Wyatt: Great, Joe. Michel Thomas is one of the most amazing individuals that my
wife Marilyne and I have met in our life. He was just an amazing guy.
Tragically, he passed on a couple of years ago, at 93 years old.
What happened is his life story is just amazing, and we don’t have
time to go into all of the details, but basically he was a Polish Jew, born in
Poland, in the period before World War II and when Nazism began to
come into power. Then, he moved out of Poland and eventually moved
into France.
When the Vichy government took control of France, he joined the
French Resistance and fought in the resistance, was a war hero when
American army invaded Italy.
Then, when they came into France, he joined up and became part
of American intelligence, did amazing things. Anyway, that’s just the first
part of his life.
Then, at 30 years old, he came to the United States and he settled
in Beverly Hills, California. He remembered something one of his
teachers had told him years ago: “Nobody knows anything about the
learning process of the human mind.” He thought, “That’s sad!” He
wanted to find out about that.
He thought how could he learn about the learning process of the
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One of the human mind. He thought what could he teach and what would be the most
foreign thing that he could teach, which would allow him to learn the most
greatest about how people learn. He decided, “Oh, foreign languages, obviously.”
enemies to So, he started teaching foreign languages in Beverly Hills.
learning Initially, it would take like 12 weeks in order to get people to learn to
speak proficiently in a foreign language. So he started refining that. And
is tension. over a period of 30 years, he refined that down from 12 weeks to five days.
Then, he spent the last 30 years doing that, his five-day training.
The people who went through this training were virtually a who’s-who of
everybody in Hollywood, from Woody Allen to Princess Grace; to you
name them, to politicians, to corporate executives. He would teach
people in a one-on-one. At the end of his life, he was charging like
$20,000 for a 5-day, one-on-one session to learn to speak a language.
So, there are a lot of things we learned from him. My wife
Marilyne has been really busy working on our book we’ve created, that is
now available. In it, we talk about his methods.
He didn’t actually want to be known as a language teacher, he
wanted to be known as an educator. He set out to be an educator. We think
he was the world’s greatest educator, the world’s greatest teacher, because
he was able to produce such amazing results.
Some of the amazing things that he did are just totally contrary to
almost everything that’s done in contemporary education.
First, he taught you to speak a language in five days: 1) there was
no homework; 2) there was no written material; 3) there was no note-
taking; 4) there was no memorizing; and 5) more amazing, when people
made mistakes, he didn’t correct the mistake because if you’d known the
answer, you wouldn’t have made the mistake. What he’d do is go back
and re-teach and come back to it, and then people would go, “Oh, I
realize before you asked this, and that was wrong. What it should have
been was this.”
So, we learned an amazing amount of things from him. Part of it
is one of the greatest enemies of learning is tension. By getting people to
let go of all tension, what happens in what we call the diseducational
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Its not system, what Michel called the mind prison, is that we put all of the
pressure on kids to learn, to work hard, to study, to get good grades,
just about otherwise you won’t be able to succeed, all of these things, and then
learning people get tense. When people are tense, they don’t perform well.
languages, It’s amazing how people survive the diseducational system as it is.
Anyway, we’re really excited about the book and we’re excited
its about about Michel, and we really want to get his message out because it
learning revolutionizes the whole approach to education.
anything. Then, we’ve taken the lessons we’ve learned here and we’ve
applied them to training. So in the trainers trainings I do, we take and
incorporate Michel’s ideas around teaching.
Anyway, that’s a little bit about Michel. As I said, the book is
coming out if people are interested in learning more about that. What’s
valuable is it is not just about learning languages; it’s about learning
anything.
Joe: No, it’s fascinating, as is much of what you teach and talk about. I really
believe you are just one very, very smart dude. I would encourage
everyone, immediately, go out and get People Pattern Power. Read up on
this, The 9 Keys To Business Success. That’s with Marilyne Woodsmall
and Wyatt Woodsmall.
I know that there’s people that have listened to this that are going
to absolutely want to go deep with it and read your books, maybe attend
some of your trainings. So, where do people need to go? What’s the best
contact info for people to go further with some of the things you’ve talked
about and touched on today? I definitely am going to do a follow-up
interview with you, but I want to give out whatever information you can.
You’re doing some really good things in the world. So, my contribution
here is I’m glad I was able to share some of these insights of this interview
today with all our listeners.
Wyatt: Right now, we are revising several of our websites. So, the best thing to
do, if you’re interested in any of our programs or if you want to purchase
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Eat if you want to purchase People Pattern Power, would be simply to call us.
The phone number is (703) 757-7945. We’ll be glad to tell you
Your information on any of the programs, to refer you to the website.
Competition Also, you can email me at WyattWoodsmall@cox.net. If you
Alive! contact us, we’ll be glad to send you a copy of People Pattern Power, and
we’ll be glad to talk about any of the other programs.
Joe: All of our listeners give me your feedback on what you felt about this
interview, and I will certainly do another Genius Network interview with
Wyatt, because, as you can tell, he just really, really has so much valuable
knowledge and information to share. Thank you, Wyatt.
Wyatt: Okay. Thank you, Joe.
------------------------------
Joe: Hello, this is Joe Polish. I want to thank you for taking the time to listen
to this interview. I hope you found it very useful. Please give me your
feedback on all of the interviews that you listen to. I love to hear your
feedback, so we can always deliver a great program for you.
Our website is www.JoePolish.com. We also have a Joe Polish
Recommends section, so you can take a lot of the ideas and concepts that
you hear on my Genius Network Interview Series and apply them to your
business and find vendors and resources. You can go to JoePolish.com. to
find that information and then click on the Joe Polish Recommends
section.
Also, if you’d like to find out about more interviews and invest in
more useful Genius Network Series interviews, go to
www.GeniusNetwork.com. Thanks, and eat your competition alive!
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Wyatt:
Joe:
Wyatt:
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Genius Network Interview

Joe Polish, President of Piranha Marketing, Interviews:

Joe Polish’s Tempe, Arizona office – headquarters for Piranha Marketing – is

Joe: Wonderful. Wonderful. I’m at my home in Tempe, Arizona, so we’re

Who is Wyatt Woodsmall? Like I mentioned, PhD in Philosophy

I do James, and People Pattern Power with Wyatt’s wife Marilyne.

Wyatt: No, I think that’s complete. A bio’s always kind of embarrassing or

Wyatt: Okay. I do a lot of things, Joe. I do executive coaching, high-end

We do Advanced behavioral modeling is one of them. What is advanced

Modeling developed at an unconscious level actually selling that product in that

Installation just theory, it is not just information, it is procedures.

If people personnel selection.

Wyatt: That’s an interesting question. Normally in modeling, what I would want

He had to what we call cross contextual to many areas, or it may be in a specific

Profit getting something done.

in their face, there’s no greater feeling of power and accomplishment, as

High we’ve got a feeling of accomplishment or achievement, that’s an internal

This is It was really exciting. Once again, these are 50 successful

Wyatt: Okay. Thank you, Joe.

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