Speaker1 The ceramicas protocol for building decentralized applications if you think about

what google and Facebook do right now? You sr. go to their applications right
and you use them and put data and make comments whatever and data goes to
their service and then they create their own internal user table and this keep the
data for himself so is the third parties
Speaker1 But it’s not Tilda yet
Speaker1 We’re not super far from that either
Speaker1 Joe, welcome to Moscow, great that you have time to talk to me
Speaker2 Yes thank you, nice to be here
Speaker1 For people who are unaware of what the ceramic is would you tell in a couple
simple words what’s it like and who’s the product for?
Speaker2 The ceramic’s protocol for building decentralized applications particularly
focusing on enabling developers to store generalize data about things that are
happening in their product or in their application, and in ceramic you can use it
to store data that you use to generate when you interact with your application
Speaker1 In a block chain field
Speaker2 Yea so it’s focused on kind of, our target right now it’s like people building chain
block applications, so you can think of ceramic is being like a chain for like for
pretty much like data storage and like changing that data overtime we’re like one
block chain like *** it’s more kind of for your financial transactions
Speaker1 People are aware of data is new gold so could you give us a couple of examples
how ceramic can help using this data and interacting with it?
Speaker2 I think like there are many ways to kind of represent data and if you think about
what google and Facebook do right now you sir go to their applications right and
use them and put data and make comments whatever and the data goes to their
service and then they create their own internal user table and this keep the data
for himself so is the third parties, but with ceramic we can actually build a system
where the user is like cripped graphically off ** the data so anyone can verify
actually that users identity that created that data and that data is stored in this
public network so that applications can actually share the datas we get like
globally use the table that shared by all of the applications that you know what’s
interact with that pretty good data
Speaker1 What can you offer for the developers of chain projects how can they use it?
Speaker2 I think the main differentiator from like there’s one block chain is that in the very
build financial application in building NFTs and like years of twenties like tools
and stuff around that, but ceramic is really focused more on like content that you
use to generate, so they make comments they do some kind of creation they make
profile or they make like a collection of NFTs or something like that they can
display, I think one of the main things is like to use the generator contents but
also like providing a way to for your…if you have a backend in your application
the backend connection right that data to decentralize network so that even if
your backend disappears someone can still regenerate the datas created by your
backend because they can sync to the ceramics data
Speaker1 Are there any competitors in the market who is doing the same thing and are you
only focused on ethereum block chain so you’re gonna go more globally because
a lot of things happening like Solana, Binance smart chain and so?
Speaker2 Yea so ceramic right now supports a number of block chains so we’ve been
working with the near community with cosmos community with Vocada
community and Focada as well basically tying your address on these block chains
into one identifier that users can bring with them to applications that might be end
of block chains because we can still bring your data
Speaker1 Ok and bout the competitors, is there anyone who’s doing the same kind of thing?
Speaker2 There isn’t really anyone doing the same things, there are people doing things in
the identity space with like creating systems for credentials there are people kind
of building block chains for social networks but it’s kind of like no direct
competitor to doing like the, in the way we’re doing it kind of focusing on the
just like a place we aggregate to users data.
Speaker1 There are a lot of people coming from the developers world of block chain
development and who’s the product of ceramic for, for more professionally users
or for new users as well?
Speaker2 We definitely like aim to like provide tools for people that want to build kind of
all this applications and the main focus right now is on people building
coordination tools around Doules or stuff like that and people building things for
NFTs but always like we’re striving to make these tools simple to use
Speaker1 But it’s not Tilda yet
Speaker2 Haa
Speaker1 It’s not Tilda you know the template for you can put things and create a website
in three minutes
Speaker2 It’s not there yet, but we’re not super far from that either
Speaker1 Ok, could you give us a couple of projects, is there any projects built on ceramic
already or is it only on the way?
Speaker2 No there’s *** one of them is Boredroom they’re have like a system where users
comment comments like make ideas, put their ideas on and people can rate their
ideas, and could tie it to their ethereum address and there’s another project called
Your Web which is doing kind of like an NFT market place where NFT
represents a physical location and then the owner of NFT can kind of create what
the current AR content of that location in the world, so that’s kind of I guess the
two branches that I mentioned before like coordination and “Douel” tooling and
NFT tooling, and there’s also project building like profile systems and generally
storing data, so this project is called catalyst they are produced to call nearer
profiles building like a profile system for nearer users
Speaker1 If you give some hints for the people who gonna use your projects what would be
the products you will build on using ceramic?
Speaker2 I guess they are multiple. I think it’s relly interesting to think about so we have
this thing that allows you to create a data object that’s only updatable by the
current holder of an NFT so with that we can do bunch of different things, but
you can do things where you have like forum, where you log in with your
cryptopunks and you post things as a cryptopunks you can like create these social
networks where you don’t interact with your real world you interact with NFTs
kind of becomes your Avatar and I think like this a lot of interesting
combinations of things you can build with that, there’s also like people already
kind of looking at building this kind of stuff, but I mentioned around coordination
 tools so
Speaker1 for the Doules
Speaker2 for Doules but yea, I guess but the word Doules is very defused right so just, let
me bring you an example right now there’s this application that basically
aggregates your activity on chain on ethereum and gives you like DJ and score
right …
Speaker1 Anyone can beats to get the high one right
Speaker2 So the more you kind of interactve with these of defightings you get higher score
but connectionally do the same things with a lot more a granularity not only the
financial sphere interacting like if you voted in Doules if you contributed into
some get hot projects you or can like get a lot of data from a lot of different
sources and ceramic can view the substraight of words we store data in a very
referable way and I think some projects start to store more of this kind of content
like how to contribute this Boardroom is like one thing but you could do also
things like this is how I attribute my kind of reputation to set about the users in a
pretty good time of period and then you can start like based on the kind of web of
trusts and graph of interactions you can distribute talkings or governance or
points or things like that
Speaker1 There’s one guy in Russia who fights I guess one hundred people when he saw
the artificial intelligence report that the one that active working on something like
he’s looking and scanning all the things in the CRM system and so on now this
kind of decisions also matters. Ok digital identity when I talk to **** block chain
field and to the investors to the projects to the products also every one saying that
they saying that Doules and digital identity is the next big thing which gonna be
happening and gonna be big very soon why is it so important what is happening
in the field of digital identity from your point of view?
Speaker2 Yea, so always when we’re talking about digital identity and like identity in
general and pick up the space its always very diffused like people usually think
about different things about what it is and what it should be so I’ve been in kind
of identity space for quite some time and it’s really like a lot of people think it’s
used like you get a KYC credential you get like a proof for humanity, particular
at a station that you have some particular property like you’re citizen or what not
but that’s only really like a very narrow…
Speaker1 This is the kind of thing which Telegram tried to bring to the space and its called
Telegram passport right?
Speaker2 Yea I guess it’s like similar it’s at the station by some trusted party that you fulfill
some criteria
Speaker1 You’re saying just on the top of the ice burg
Speaker2 Yea because like the reason we started building ceramic is because building this
data platform is because identities really more like an emergent property of all the
interactions because like in the real world your identity is not you know is not
like diver license or your passport your identity is made up of the interactions you
have with other people how you interact with the world and how you relate to the
world
Speaker1 Have you seen the black mirror serials
Speaker2 I’ve seen it yea
Speaker1 Where people go back and forth and what if projects try to build this kind of thing
when you’re taking to a driver of taxi in a bad way your score is going down and
some kind of thing happened in china I think the social rating are you talking
about this kind of identity or not?
Speaker2 I mean it’s not
Speaker1 Is it might be some kind of
Speaker2 You couldn’t build such a thing, I don’t think that’s necessary direction we want
to go in I think we want pluralistic like instanciation of what identity is, not like
K there’s one autoreactive score that decides everything in your life I think that’s
not great
Speaker1 And true digital block chain identity is gonna be the same as bitcoin the same as
block chain transparent from one side and anonymous from the other side, I mean
those two sides different to bring together, talking about the identity
Speaker2 Yea and I think it’s, we need to like, think about like privacy is really important,
in some cases it’s relly important to be able to be public because it’s like you
have, you’re contributing to some project like needs transparency, but also like in
different context when you see different applications, when contributing to
different organizations you might have different aspects of your identity that you
want to like reveal and show
Speaker1 I know that you have a Russian guy working with your team in a high positon and
you’ve seen quite of your teams here in Hactum what can you say about the level
of Russian block chain developers how good is it comparing to the European
ones to American ones and so on
Speaker2 I think there’s a lot of technical skill and I think that the style of kind of
coordination and like collaboration here is very different and I’m not like super
familiar with it
Speaker1 What did surprise you
Speaker2 Nothing has really surprised me yet because we have one engineer and he’s like
super diligent and very skillful and he’s been able to like integrate himself to our
team and do a really good job, I think for more purely teams like more Russian
developers the style of interacting and the style of the company of like
coordinating I guess is quite different from you know
Speaker1 what you used to
Speaker2 Yea, but I think there’s different in values in both ways would definitely wanna
explore that aspect more and try to find what the better middle way
Speaker1 Hopefully we can talk about it later on this year later or next year. Right everyone
is searching for good developers using hack it on sering cahr agency and so on of
course the market dictates this kind of thing everyone is growing a lot of
investments more money coming into the market and what do you think what
kind of skills for developers highly attractive now and what kind of developers
will be, will find a good paid jobs in the nearest future
Speaker2 There are some aspects that are like ok purely technical skills that are like you
know so let it to the engineering people who work on like core block chain clients
that’s something that we’re really looking for so like actually implementing the
client at run stale one block chain and like generally people who are familiar with
kind of smart country developments and front end and like how those work
 together and generally people are familiar with ceramic protocols and like how
the lower networking works those are kind of like some technical skills but also
there’s like softer skills like getting into team, that you’re not just waiting for
someone to tell you what to do but like actually trying to figure out ok based on
what everyone is doing and based on what I’m hearing from my peers like what’s
the next thing and how can I contribute in providing the most values to the team
Speaker1 And taking about decentralized teams then you generation of developers all are
used to it or some kind of problems not talking about the time problems if you are
in the united states and Russia and different time zones what can the
decentralized way?
Speaker2 You mean like remote work?
Speaker1 Yea
Speaker2 I find remote work most people don’t really have that much of an issue
transitioning to it, I find the harder transition to make is going from like having
worked in like a web tool environment of like used the mind set of here we have
server back end and then a front end and like all of the things how that operates
and then going to like of three world of what we have trying to like be maximally
decentralized realize as literary as possible like one back or at least have back end
serve run by different entities and I think that minds its shift is the hardest thing
to for traditional developers that kind of transition over into
Speaker1 Now we’re talking almost in the end of the year and a lot of things happened in
2021 like gamefy NFTs and much more, if we are talking about next year what
you think it’s gnona be big because everyone is waiting for the digital identity to
be growing rally fast Doules and all is it going to happen in 2022?
Speaker2 So I think Doules are gonna keep being like this more organic or something, there
might be some instantiation that gets some doubts and get some attraction but I
think that eco system is kind of like it has been steadily growing like slowly
steadily growing for quite some time
Speaker1 It should be a blast some time right?
Speaker2 Maybe like if we find like their right application like in, I don’t think that’s bout
like a technology I think it’s about you know the people who need it there’s
actually something we’ve built in products well for some activists or something
that really needs it right now
Speaker1 Mostly now we see like investments doubts right? People get together in order to
invest in some block chain projects or NFTs collections and so on is it true?
Speaker2 Yea I mean there’s definitely a bunch of the type of Doules that used to like
venture that type of investments I don’t think that’s like the most interesting
aspect
Speaker1 But you believe that it should be going to the real people’s world right?
Speaker2 I mean I think it needs to if there’s like some kind of **grow, I think over the
next year I think the tooling of Doules is gonna keep evolving, there’s like this
year already like if you like innovadious how can we coordinate not focusing like
ok what’s having like super secure Doule that’s you know is completely
decentralizing more focusing on it, we’re group of people I can recoordinate most
effectively using the tools that block chain provides and that type of ideation and
nativation is kind of lead us to like the tools that are easier for people to use and
 more adoption, so I think that’s the tooling around us that keep on evolving and I
think for us with ceramic that’s gonna mean like people can build more
applications for app store using data about like the things that happen in these
Doules and like how people interact and start getting composability of not only
like the financial tools but also the data that’s generated by different apps so you
have one S like small coordination to where people can brought on each other
whatever like rate each other’s contributions and then another app can actually
take the result of that and put that into their own app and then build something
new
Speaker1 You know I’ve talked to a lot of projects and products which are trying to hire
people and they say it still kind of hard to tell people that block chain is not a
scam do you need this kind of things when you try to hire a really good developer
that the block chain is the future which is happening right now or still meet this
kind of thoughts in developers heads
Speaker2 I mean it happens right, but I think
Speaker1 What do say to you know to tell them that it’s not true it’s not only about money
which is just happening to some people
Speaker2 It really depends on whether how to say that, like some people are stubborn, like
they don’t want to listen and it’s kind of hard to convince them, I think most as
people that go deeper and actually talk to like they’re at least some one open
mind that I can see be convinced but I think that’s gotten better like I think for
years ago like people were used like unaware and the people who got it got it and
not that many people were against it but now it’s more like I find many people
opened to the idea but they haven’t explored it that much
Speaker1 What do say to the people who are thinking in coming to the block chain world in
a few words who are you looking for and some motivation that they should not
stop, not looking at the market how it goes down and up it’s not the most
important thing about the development of block chains
Speaker2 So we’re really building that kind of foundation of infrastructure structure for a
new type of civilization and I find it like useful to think about it in that way
because it’s not about you know building some tool for financial things, or
building some tool for making money out of data it’s about like creating this
infrastructure that we can all use to build a better mechanism supply coordination
and ultimately like collaboration across borders or locally or like solving the
types of problems that we’ve struggled with in society right now because there’s
a bunch of problems happening right now unlike the species level that in the
current time we don’t really have mindset in approaching like how can we solve
those and we’re kind of re-struggling, and I think with these new tools we can
actually start getting out solution
Speaker1 A lot of block chain developers becoming inter opinions, you are a business
owner as well not only the developer or a technical guy yea? And it seems that
the world’s changing and what do you think about there’s so many inter opinions
and so many people starting their own projects is it a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker2 I think it’s really good, and I think it matches well with kind of the ethos, but also
the facilities where forwarded with block chains because we can have these kind
of much smaller projects that, where you contribute some small things to provide
 a lot of value in some context and then other people can build other small tools
and they can be combined and that hasn’t really been possible in the same way
because with more building things in Saios now we’re actually build things on a
common platform
Speaker1 And it seems to me that a lot of new products are some kind of cons tractor I
mean they really take some products from different parts that use of course the
ethereum network itself it seems to me that before it was a bad taste I mean you
should build everything inside in house and so, is it changing?
Speaker2 Yea I mean I think it is, I think once your project start becoming bigger you
would wanna medicate risk like relying on some other new project all the time
that trade of still exist but I think with the fact that contracts that deployed
ethereum you can like verify this no one’s gonna change that, you can rely on that
is much more easy
Speaker1 Thank you Joel
Speaker2 Thank you
Speaker1