Researching Energy Medicine

Dean Radin
Dean Radin, PhD, is chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Science in Novato,
California. He is author of The Conscious Universe, Entangled Minds, Supernormal,
and Real Magic. His website is http://www.deanradin.org/.

Here Dean Radin discusses a series of five research papers, published in conjunction with a group
of colleagues, investigating “energy medicine” – a term he acknowledges is a misnomer, as it is
neither energy nor medicine. 190 individuals with carpal tunnel pain were each treated by an
energy healer during a half-hour, laboratory session. Significant pain reduction was reported both
immediately after the session and also three weeks later. Numerous other measurements were
made to help better understand how this process works. Significant findings included quantum
negentropic effects and alterations in the spectrographic analysis of water.

Hello and welcome. I’m Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we'll be exploring

research in energy medicine. My guest is my friend, Dean Radin, who is
the Chief Scientist at the Institute of noetic Sciences. He's also
distinguished professor at the California Institute of integral studies. He's
worked at Bell Labs, Princeton University, the University of Edinburg and
SRI international in Menlo Park, California. He is the author or coauthor
of hundreds of scientific articles, his popular books include The Conscious
Universe, Entangled Minds, Supernormal and Real Magic. And now I'll
switch over to the internet video.

Welcome Dean, it's a pleasure to be with you once again.

DR: Thanks Jeff it's good to be here.

You've done a large and extensive project on energy medicine working

with a team of people. I want to dig into that because there are so many
angles and variables with which we can look at the question of energy
medicine, but we ought to begin by attempting to define what energy
medicine is.

[1]
DR: Yeah, it's a misnomer because it's neither energy, nor medicine, at
least from any conventional perspective. So, the way I think of it then is
that it is felt energy. It is a description about feeling of something that is
described as energetic. It does not as far as we can tell, have anything to
do with what a physicist or an engineer would talk about in terms of
energy. But you also find words like frequency and vibration that are used
a lot for by practitioners of this and what they're describing is what they
feel. So, it is something like a metaphor perhaps or a felt form of energy
and medicine, we can think of as a wide variety of therapeutics it from an
allopathic perspective usually devolves down into drugs or surgery. Well
this is not that this is something else altogether different which is
interacting with an individual who's in some kind of need, and the need is
resolved, or at least treated. So, energy medicine, maybe is a euphemism
because it used to be called subtle energy treatments and that wasn't very
useful either because it's neither subtle nor energetic. So many words have
been used over the years to try to gain, what is happening here when
essentially one person's intention interacts with another person's need and
somehow the need is resolved.

So, you have people who consider themselves practitioners of energy

medicine, and they intervene through their focused intention through
visualisation prayer and whatever, internal means they may be using.

DR: Yes, and some insist that it has nothing to do with intention. And that
it can be trained like anyone could learn how to do it. Others claim that
you need talent, you need to be anointed in some way. It involves special
perception there's it's completely all over the map. So, from a practitioner
perspective you can have your selection of one of dozens of different
techniques, which may or may not be the same. In fact, it the from an
external perspective, they're not the same internally what's going on. They
might be but we don't actually know yet.

Examples might be Reiki healing or Joe Ray or Religious Science

treatment, things of that sort.

[2]
DR: Shamanic healing, or healing spiritual healing. Yes, the list goes on
and on.

So, with a team of people you engaged in a very extensive project in fact
five different research papers have already come out of it. I gather that
it started with a pool of some 380 individuals who had carpal tunnel
problems. They were experiencing pain in their wrists and that was the
basic sample you worked with.

DR: Right, so we recruited a bunch of people 190 actually came to the lab
for the healing session, we recruited 17 different energy healers, and each
healer worked with approximately 10 people sometimes a little bit more
for a single half hour session in the laboratory. So, among the measures
that we were taking the most important one was the clinical measure of
was carpal tunnel pain reduced. And we don't always talk about as
specifically as carpal tunnel pain, because in order to use that diagnosis.
You need to have neurologists diagnose it as such. So, we simply recruited
people who had hand or wrist pain and left it at that. And the measurement
was the standard subjective measurement of that they feel their pain got
better or not on a 10-point scale. And so, that measure, which is purely
subjective but nevertheless that's like the standard since pain is objective
that significantly decreased. As a result of the half hour session, and also
remained decreased after a three week follow up, which is kind of
shocking actually when you think about it, is single half hour session by
healer that most of the clients have never met before, many different kinds
of healers significant reduction in pain that seem to persist for at least
three weeks.

That's a very impressive finding but what struck me is that unlike other
studies I'm familiar with in the area of healing. I did not see that you
use to control group.

DR: Right. Entirely because of two reasons. One, it cost money because
we would have to double the size of the experiment. But even more
importantly, what does it mean to have a control group. In this context,
[3]
well, presumably, it means to have something like a sham healer, or a real
healer who wasn't healing. Well, when you talk to healers, they don't not
want to heal, it's very difficult for them to be in a context where somebody
is in need of something and they're not going to do it. So, that wouldn't
work too well. So, another approach you could take is like a waitlist where
everyone gets treated at some point, except that you have a group that is
not treated initially and then they're treated later. And then you can flip
that we decided to get not to do that, mainly because of the amount of
resources required in order to get a large enough group of both healers
and patients. We call them. I think we call them participants. It's simply a
matter of resources what can you do, however, we did look at the issue of
whether this was a placebo response by asking about people's expectations
and belief about energy healing. And so, if there was a strong correlation
between the results that they got and their belief or their expectation then
you would say well okay this was simply a matter of expectation that was
driving it to placebo. But there was no significant correlation, which
means that some people who came in, had no expectations and no belief
or even negative about what a healer would do. And nevertheless, they
still got better. So, it's not exactly as good as a control, but it's like one
step in that direction.

The thing that puzzled me in reading over the first of these papers is that
190 individuals I think were drawn from a pool that happened to be
about twice as large which made me think that maybe you were
originally planning to use a control group.

DR: No, it's entirely on who would actually show up, right! It's easy to
recruit people when they don't actually have to do anything. But when
they have to come to the lab and they're spending time to get there in time
to go away and coming back three weeks later, it's not so easy.

Well you had a large number of measurements while they were there in
the lab so you were really trying to pin down as best you could what was
going on during the energy healing process. And one of the most unique
things that you endeavoured to do was to have an individual that you
[4]
refer to as a seer presumably somebody with synesthetic abilities or
clairvoyant abilities to describe what they observed during the healing
process.

DR: Right. This was purely exploratory. We did it because of many

reports by healers and sometimes by patients that they see or feel
something. Well, since, normal instruments that you'd find in a physics
lab or an engineering lab they don't pick up much of anything. We figured
Okay, we'll get somebody who is says that they're sensitive to these kinds
of things, and have her in this case, a woman was selected to take copious
notes for every single one of the 190 sessions so we at least have that as
your uniform measure and simply describe what you saw, so that that
becomes one of our papers, it's a matter of a subjective, or a single case
study of a subjective Sears experience of all of these Healing Sessions.
And when you do that you can then do your basically a qualitative study
where you can find out, is there a taxonomy of ways that you perceived,
especially in correlation to the results of each session the subjective and
objective results of the session. So that's what that paper was about. And
of course, ideally what we'd have is some kind of recordings of all of the
sessions, like video recordings and other recordings, which many many
seniors can look at. But we don't know is, could they perceive something
happening over a video will be nice if they did because then we could
have hundreds of people do it. We don't know if that's even possible. And
we couldn't get, we actually already kind of maxed out in the room that
we were using so we couldn't have more than three people in there at once.
At the same time anyway.

Together, the sear was actually in the room in the laboratory during the
energy healing sessions.

DR: Yes. Yep, the healer the patient and this year, all in the same room.

And you did go through a relatively extensive recruiting process in order

to identify a person who would be appropriate for that task.

[5]
DR: We had a number of candidates, and since I was not directly involved
in the selection, I don't remember exactly what it was, you probably know
better than I do having just read the paper, but there was a method of
selecting the car to test whether or not their claimed perceptions actually
had any objective way of measuring it. So, the one we ended up selecting
was actually all of them were in a sense professionals in the sense that
they have been involved in intuitive practices and healing practices for a
long time, but this particular seer was the one that was selected.

Yes, as I recall, they did a sample run with one of the office staff just to
see if it made sense to begin with. If there were reasonable correlations.
Another interesting study that you did involve in apparatus in the
laboratory with the healers involving random number generators of the
type I think they were similar to the ones that were used in the global
consciousness project developed by Roger Nelson and, which as I recall
you were also involved.

DR: Yes, kind of, except that the global consciousness project, random
number generators produce bits. And so, what we have developed is we
call it a quantum noise generator, because it is taking the guts of a random
number generator and recording the noise directly, and is digitizing it but
nevertheless we're recording noise and not turning it into bits. And the
reason for this is because once you have a commercial type random
number generator it's very difficult to reverse engineer, what might have
happened in the device, you can see that things happen but because of the
exclusive OR logic gates and the output is very difficult to kind of peer
backwards and find out why does this bit go this way and that bit went
that way. Well, it's all coming basically out of noise from electronic
circuits. And so, we tap the original noise source and digitize that. So, we
had a device that was made by Lauren carpenter. That was had multiple
versions of these 16 different quantum noise generators in a single box.
And that's what we had running during the Healing Sessions.

And based on quantum tunnelling, as I recall,

[6]
DR: Yeah, we use back bias diode which is when many of the modern
actually even older random number generators used as the source of noise
because of the electron tunnelling effect which is a quantum effect. That's
why we called our device a quantum noise generator.

If I recall correctly the measurement you were using was to see if there
was some coherence, that would develop between the 16 different
random outputs in this device.

DR: We're looking for a disturbance in the Force. And so, the way I
interpreted Obi-wan's expression was a ripple in entropic space time. So
what random generators are maximum entropy devices, they produce
maximum randomness. And we detect that something interesting
happened in correlation with focused attention by a change in entropy,
and negentropic effect. That's what the global consciousness project had
looked at and that's what all of these individual experiments PK
experiments with random generators are all about. So, we have the
hypothesis that something about a healing intention is at least focused at
tension, whether intention is involved or not, and attention is there, and
it's focused for half an hour. So, we recorded continually is quantum noise.
And rather than turning it into bits and doing statistics on bits. We rather
looked at auto correlations in the noise itself. We can take a chunk like
one second chunk of noise and then auto correlated with a sliding window,
and what you're looking for, then is deviations in. In, as Peter Bansal once
said it's like the stickiness of the between the bits, in this case digitised
noise. There shouldn't be any if it's truly noise quantum noise there's no
relationship at all. But it looks as though, when attention is focused in the
vicinity that there is a dependency, that shows up in time, so that's not an
order correlation measure. So that's one measure that we were looking at
the other one, which by the way is a temporal measure. So that's our time
part, the space part was looking at the relationship between the outputs of
each of the 16 generators. And you can do that in many ways which
simply took the pairs. The average pair of all the correlations between the
outputs of the generators. So that gave us a temporal and spatial measure
which turned out to be independent of each other. So, they're combined
[7]
into a spacetime metric. And this is where going back to a disturbance of
the force. It suggests that just like gravity is thought, or at least, perhaps
metaphorically thought to bend the fabric of space time, there may be
something about focused attention, which bends entropic space time. And
so are random generators we're looking for something like a ripple that
would happen or distortion in this entropy space. And that is what we

found. So, we found that the beginning of the healing session you'd see a
deviation beginning, it would increase up to the point of around, I forget
exactly 24 seconds, or 24 minutes of the 30-minute session, and then begin
to slack off and went back down to chance. So, it looked very much as
though there was a small but continual effect, or just accumulated over
the course of the half hour healing session. And when the healing stopped
everything reverted back to normal, as though there was a ripple in
spacetime.

And this was highly significant from a statistical perspective.

[8]
DR: Yeah, so it was highly significant and as a control and since we were
the generators running all the time. We simply took all of the same
metrics, in terms of when sessions took place, and went eight hours into
the future, when there was nobody in the lab. So, we compared that against
what we saw during the laboratory itself. During the healings and yeah
there was a big big difference. And by the way, that this is not the first
time that somebody has tried to do this, Wayne Jonas and his group did a
very similar thing with healer Maya Tech. Now I'm forgetting I don't
remember the first or last name. But anyway.

I think you're referring to a healer named Mayo Tech Virkus.

DR: Yes, yes. So, he did a healing session and they had a random number
generator there and found a very similar result that something during the
healing context, creates a deviation in the random generator which is not
too surprising when you look at the entire body of studies looking for so
called field consciousness effects.

Well if you combine this with the other highly significant effect that you
reported which was the subject of reduction in pain. These two
measurements correlate with each other and seem to suggest that
something is going on well above and beyond any kind of placebo effect.

DR: Right. We can't say that for, for certainty for the subjective measure
but the fact as you say that there's an objective change, and also in water,
which is our one of our proxy targets. We ended up with a number of
objective and subjective measures. All suggesting that something
happened. And so, the subjective one in this case was the one that we were
hoping what happened, namely reduction in pain, but that correlated
against objective measures as it's not just expectation effects that really
was something that had happened.

And I suppose it is fair to say as well that conventional science has to

my knowledge, no good explanation for why you would be getting
deviations like that in a quantum mechanical random event generator.
[9]
DR: Or in water, or anything else, or in the human body or subjective
changes in pain. No, we don't have. We of course in any kind of any kind
of medical experiment you're looking for the mechanism of action. We
have no idea what the mechanism of action is. So, we're at this stage. It's
unfortunate in a sense that we don't even know exactly at this point how
we would conduct studies to begin to unravel what the mechanism of
action is. And my guess is that it's the same problem that we're dealing
with inside studies in general, that we can see effects. We know that the
effects are correlated, oftentimes with attention and intention. We don't
know how those happen, and about the closest I can see to quasi
mechanistic explanations have something to do with interpretations of
quantum mechanics. So, I'm very hesitant to say that the quantum
mechanics explains anything here, but the fact that there are already at
least a half a dozen if not a dozen interpretations of quantum mechanics,
some of them. Put consciousness, front and center, in which case the
suggests that some elements of the physical world are related in some way
to some elements of the mental world. Well, everything we're talking
about here is kind of a sweet kind of mental healing. The how it works.
We don't know yet. that's what we're working on both with colleagues
who are theorists who oftentimes will try will initially come up with a
theory of everything, which is not helpful, because maybe it will explain
things pretty well but it's not testable. So, we want a more constrained
theory that says, Well, maybe what's going on it's quantum entanglement
though this particular type that does this and that, whatever. Well then we
can test it and see if that's a viable idea but when it comes to this domain,
we don't have a guiding theory yet.

The study that you did involving spectrographic analysis of water is

interesting. I'm going to link to an earlier interview I did with Stephen
Schwartz who did a similar experiment. Many years ago, and I gather
that the work you did is pretty much a replication of his initial study with
similar results.

[10]
DR: Yeah. So, we did our study with water based on the paper that
Stephen did, where the study that he did that he used an infrared
spectrometer to look at the molecular change and water. And we did the
same thing. We use the very fancy spectral spectrometer called attenuated
total reflection Fourier transform infrared spectrometer. With a liquid
nitrogen cooled detector. And it's measuring a property of water called
Quintessence, I believe, are no Evanescence. And so, the idea is that you
if you take infrared beam and you shine it into water, depending on the
angle that you hit it, it could either go into the water or it could sort of
skim along the surface. So, an attenuated total reflection system aims the
beam so it skims along the surface and it repeatedly bounces in and out of
the water right along the surface. And depending on how much of the
infrared is absorbed you if you're looking at its resonance with different
molecular states. So, you sweep the energy of the infrared, from a lower
to higher frequency. You see what is absorbed and you can infer based on
the absorption spectrum, what is happening to the molecules. So, we had
a little vial of water that we asked the healer, to wear and a necklace. And
the same kind of setup in the patient. And we measured the water before
and after the healing session for both people. This water by the way is a
laboratory grade triple pure kind of water, it's not tap water, you use that
kind of water because it doesn't have contaminants in it. Like every form
of non-distilled water will have something else in it. When you do as
spectroscopy analysis of it. You could see everything in the water and we
would just want a clean signal. So, we use this special water. We found a
no difference pre post in the water that was around the necklace of the
patient. But we did find a significant difference around the necklace of the
healer. And the difference that we found was in the, the portion of the
spectrum which is what Steven had found as well, which has to do with
the stretching of the bonds, but it could also be the breaking of the bonds,
the hydrogen oxygen bonds can be pulled and break, where they can be
squished, so it's kind of this motion, that's where we found a significant
difference in the structure of the water in that experiment, and this is the
cross again the 190 sessions in 17 years.

[11]
That's another significant finding that replicated an earlier study which
is very important. On top of all this, you also looked at a wide range of
environmental factors that might have contaminated or influenced or
correlated with the findings and I believe the most significant of these
was barometric pressure.

DR: Right, relative local weather. On the day of the test geomagnetic field
in a variety of different space metrics things having to do with solar wind
and solar rotation and all that sort of stuff in it yeah it's true that barometric
pressure seemed to be the local barometric pressure seem to be the thing
that correlated the most with what we found, which is not too surprising
because there are all kinds of pains that people get which are also
correlated with barometric pressure. So, maybe we're simply saying
something that's already known, like I know that my, my body is
extremely sensitive to changes in weather barometric pressure humidity
all of that idea I can feel it coming. I feel pain when it changes. So, it's not
surprising to me that somebody who's already experiencing pain would
find that we would find actually in the hole that there would be changes
in pain, depending on what the barometric pressure happened to be.

Parapsychologists have for a long time looked at things like

geomagnetic fluctuations. Local sidereal time, potentially the influence
coming from the Galactic center, and I think you looked at a number of
these variables as well.

DR: Yeah, we looked at the so-called geo cosmic factors. And again, I
did that analysis but it's been so long ago you know how long it takes
between writing a paper and actually having it out. So generally, what I
do is I spend a huge amount of attention. Preparing the paper writing and
paper getting it out, and then you wipe your mind clean because there's
only so much you can shove in there. So let's say read the paper and know
that that's we're going to talk about, I'm not going to remember the details
that well, so you may have to tell me what the effect was I think it was a
solar variable that correlated with the results of the experiment, was it not.

[12]
What I recall Dean is that, considering that you were measuring so
many different variables you found a number of interesting
correlations, including those we didn't talk about relating to the findings
of the seer. But when you then did a correction because of the many
different variables that you were analysing, they became less significant
statistically.

DR: Right, but some survived the correction for multiple testing, and of
course those are more interesting, because it means that they might
individually be quite significant. It's true that if you look at 50 or 80
variables, some of them are going to show up just by chance, but you can
do a correction and you can say okay well these few actually survived the
correction giving more confidence that they really are a real effect and as
I said I think one of them was a solar variable like solar wind or something
like that. Which by the way that particular variable has shown up in size
studies too.

As I recall there was a fascinating study you did related but very
different years ago when you were in Las Vegas you looked at casino
winnings and correlated them with the phases of the moon.

DR: Yes. Yeah, so we found that most of the jackpots occurred on the day
of the full moon plus or minus a day. And interestingly So you mentioned
the global consciousness project. I did an analysis to see what the data
looks like in that database 23 years of data per second. So, there's a lot of
data as correlated against the moon, and there is a significant effect by the
moon. It's not at the new moon or the or the full moon. It's in the transition
periods about. I think it's called half-moon or quarter moon, where it's the
midpoint where it is shifted from New to fall. It's halfway in between that's
where you see actually a significant effect both going waning and waxing
in both directions. So, I don't know what to make of that, because the
moon's not supposed to do that. Unless what we're saying and I haven't
done this yet but it might be that we're seeing something like a tidal effect
the gravitational effect, which would be quite interesting given these

[13]
would say proto theories that some people have that maybe Psi is related
in some way to gravitational effects.

I don't recall specifically which environmental effects showed up in the

healing study but it does seem that from the overall database in
parapsychology relating to these sorts of things that many correlations,
particularly with geomagnetic activity have turned up and various
studies.

DR: Right, right. So, the correlation there might be related to magnetic
storms interfering with the temporal lobe, in particular, this is what
Michael person guard group had looked at and in great detail. It’s kind of
makes sense to me that if you're in a magnetically disturbed environment
like during a magnetic storm. Our brains are full of electrolytes and it
works in electrical properties, among other things. So, people with
sensitive temporal lobes. I imagine that as a metaphor their brains get a
little bit scrambled when during these storms and so they're not going to
be quite as psychic. So, the correlation is usually found with the
geomagnetic field is a quiet geomagnetic field is correlated with improved
Psi performance, at least for perceptual Psi, that may not be true, it could
be the opposite for psychokinetic type of Psi.

While we're on the topic, James Spottiswood did a study many years ago
looking at remote viewing research and correlating it with local sidereal
time there was a particular spike in remote viewing success that came up
in at least two different meta analyses at 13 hours and 30 minutes, local
sidereal time. I don't know if you were looking at that in this study, I don't
recall that you were but while I'm with you. Do you have any further
reflections on that, have you kept up with the latest thinking, local sidereal
time?

DR: And I think the current thinking is that there is a possible confound
in that finding because it's correlated with season. Local sidereal time and
seasons are like two oscillating values that can make one seem as though
it's a cause of suffering we're actually it's the effect of the other. So, it is
[14]
not clear that local sidereal time is one of the main factors might have
been an accident or confound as a result of something else. What the
something else might be could be related to the solar period to the season,
where I mean solar period is a rotation of the sun, or where the sun is in
relationship to the earth, or the other way around, or even where it is in
terms of the relationship to the solar system. So, we can have a daily
effect, 364 and a half day effect, and so on lots of different cycles that are
going on here. And it's very difficult to know for sure what's causing what.
So, we did decided not to look at local sidereal time in this case, partially
because it wasn't quite long enough, I mean we collected data for about
six months. That would again give us some differences and local sidereal
time but not very much. You need a large enough database over a longer
period of time, to be able to see if there really is a pattern that's showing
up. That's why, for the GCP, with 23 years of data you can look at lunar
cycle and get lots of them. And that's where you begin to see these effects.

Back to energy medicine. I guess it would be fair to say that if you look
at these five studies taken as a whole, and the different correlations that
you found the reduction in pain, and the correlations with the
spectrographic analysis of water, and the negative tropic effect on the
random event generators, one would have to be positively inclined
towards energy medicine is a reasonable healing modality.

DR: Well, and not only that I mean that you can go to the Cochrane
Reviews or just look up in the in PubMed, and the literature and what you
usually find your studies on Reiki, more than other methods. But of
course, plenty of studies on therapeutic touch and other methods that look
kind of like that. Overall, at least for pain reduction, the evidence I think
is clear enough that yes it is it's a real thing, it works almost certainly
involves talent on the part of the healer need on the part of the patient,
possibly some degree of openness, on both sides, like, the healers usually
are open because they're doing it but the patients could or could not be
openness and that I think probably modulates it to some extent. So, it
works. The reason why, and actually in some hospitals that nurses are
using it, regardless of what anybody else thinks because they know it
[15]
helps the interesting question always is well then we'll how does it work.
Well it's. It'll require some refinement, or adjustment or expansion of our
paradigm about interactions between people, among other things, and it
gets really tricky when you start asking healers, you're you know you're
working within arm's reach of this person. Could you do the same thing
for somebody who is on the other side of the planet. Most of the healers
will say yes, they said we don't want to talk about that because it freaks
people out but yeah, this stuff works at a distance as well or sometimes
even better than it does close up. Well, from a mainstream perspective
that's frightening. Because now, you didn't you don't know why you feel
the way you feel maybe somebody in the other side of the planet is
thinking bad thoughts that you are good thoughts or whatever but it's, it is
frightening to accept the reality that somebody else can influence the way
you feel. So that's one of the reasons why it's probably it goes subrosa,
even though it actually works. And it is also probably the most frequent
email that I get from somebody who is feeling disturbed by it by
something like this, and they want to know how to stop it. Well, I mean
there's historical ways of stopping psychic attack and I think that's about
the best we can. We know how to do at the moment. But that's not very,
it's not satisfying from a scientific perspective because it's hand waving at
this point, we don't really know what's happening. So, not surprisingly,
this is not a mainstream topic of study within the medical world, even
though it can demonstrate that it does something, it works. I'm not exactly
sure how to break that taboo. Maybe it would require something like the
taboo that broke the acupuncture resistance, way back when, namely I
think it was a US senator or a congressperson, who had an operation, and
they used acupuncture for the anaesthesia. And it worked. Well, then
suddenly pretty quickly afterwards. The the word got around and the
resistance to even talking about it as a modality began to break down. So,
we need some big effect like that major celebrity or something has healed
in this manner, and is credible and is able to tell that story, and that that's
how things change.

If I recall correctly with regard to acupuncture and maybe it's just a

different line of thinking it was Bruce Pomeranz at the University of
[16]
Toronto, who discovered that acupuncture stimulation caused certain
hormones endorphins to appear that blocked pain.

DR: Yeah. Endorphins right so yes, so I think that may have been either
around the same time or just after the government official had reported
this effect. But as you see them these are sociological changes the
announcement about endorphins gave scientists or at least medical
researchers, a sense of comfort that if you poke somebody in just the right
place you can produce a pain reduction hormone, so that now sounds like
a mechanism, even though it's probably not what's going on. It's
something way more complicated but it gave like a little bit of Oh, okay.
Now we can accept this because we have a kind of an explanation. So, it's
a combination of things like that, you have a kind of explanation you have
kind of a credible person talking about the incredible, those kinds of
effects carry enormous weight terms of the sociological changes. And so,
something like that maybe will happen here too. We'll find that we can
measure and tropic changes. We don't know exactly how that works yet
but we can make up stories like a few one person's sense of internal
coherence can be transferred to somebody who is out of coherence and
through some kind of entanglement whether metaphorical or literal, you
can transfer that feeling of internal coherence, and that alone will cause
all kinds of epigenetic changes, which will cause someone to feel better.
So that's a proto theory I just made up I have no idea if that's true or not
but let's say that that that's kind of a proto theory as elements of it which
are testable, which we can do with random number generators for
detecting field changes. And you need a couple of well-known celebrities
to say, I don't know how it worked, but this person did this, this and that
and then they felt better. Well, that's a huge change it.

I haven't looked at the Medical databases for a long time. I gather that
in what we used to call psychic healing there a dozen studies or more,
but I'm under the impression that there might be hundreds, maybe even
as many as 1000s of studies in energy medicine, even though this is not
what you would call a popular area of research. Can you give me some
idea?
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DR: I don't think there are 1000s. I mean, you can look back at the earliest
studies involving healing typically of cells or mice or small animals. It
started in the 60s. So, this is relatively new area. And since then, I think,
rather than looking at clinical trials, which is more directly associated with
healing studies. It got deflected, a little bit, partially because of the
difficulty in doing intercessory prayer studies. It got deflected into
DMILS area. The so called distant mental interactions with living
systems. And the reason it was deflected is because whenever you do a
clinical trial, it takes a huge amount of resources. A lot of people a lot of
tracking getting people to come in to be compliant. It's, they're very
expensive, and takes a long time. So, as we're speaking now, we know
that the vaccines for COVID are being approved. Well those took 10s of
1000s of participants and who knows how many other 10s of 1000s of
actual people involved behind the scenes who are getting the data and
producing it whatever, and the amount of time and effort that's why it
costs billions to get these drugs made in the way that they did well we
don't have billions. We don't even have millions, we have, like, $22. So,
in the healing studies, rather than doing it as a clinical trial, you go into
the laboratory and get an analogue of healing. And so, the DMILS studies
were all about. Stick somebody into a room somewhere and take their
physiology and look at their skin conductance or their heart rate or
something like that. And then at random times you look at them over
closer to TV. And you either just gaze at them, as in the feeling of being
stared at or you gaze with intention to try to activate or calm them. And
so, there's something like three or four dozen-controlled studies done of
that type, and they work. They're not massively monstrous big effects, but
statistically speaking they are repeatable effects that are statistically
significant. That tells us that in principle, simply having somebody pay
attention to you from a distance will change your physiology, so it's not
much of a step from there to say okay maybe it has a healing response.
So, I think that was one of the deflections. The other main reason why this
is an area of study has been fallow for a long time, was a large scale study
on intercessory healing by Herbert Benson and his team at Harvard, and
it didn't work, and everybody in the media report that in that basically
stopped it in one shot all funding stopped. So that's what can happen quite
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easily and these, especially when it comes to not only a controversial topic
but a controversial topic that is conducted by Harbert, and then recorded
which guarantees at all of the major media will carry it. And if you're
unlucky and it happens to not be a significant result. That's the end of it,
it just stops.

I remember when I was a graduate student, I did a simple study using

plants just beansprouts or alfalfa sprouts where you can have healers
try to make the plants grow faster, easy to measure any high school
student could repeat those studies, they're not difficult to do.

DR: Yeah, and people today are using similar things with, they make a
batch of rice and they put rice in different buckets. And then they put
healing words on some of the buckets and nasty words on the other
buckets and the claim typically is that the rice, getting the healing
thoughts. Remain fresh or at least they don't become horrible. Have fun
guide messes after a couple of days of doing that personally somewhat
you know but you don't have to believe what anybody says about such
things but doing it personally has a big effect on people who try it. So,
we've done studies using plants as well and you see pretty big effects
under controlled conditions. That's what has convinced me. Right. There
are many things you could read about you never quite know do believe it
or not, in my own case, the things I end up believing in are ones that have
been able to replicate myself. And that's a limited subset of the entire
universe, but it's the thing which has driven me always has been curiosity.
And so, the Curiosity drove me to test the things that I could. And I
wouldn't say everything but most of the things that I've studies in terms of
psi, whether it's a healing effect or simply an influence of a physical
system in some way. It convinces me that it's a real phenomenon, even
though we still don't have a good idea about how it works.

Dean Radin this has been a great pleasure to learn about your latest
research I'm thrilled to have this time with you. I'm also very happy to
let our viewers know that on January 17, 2021, you will be available for

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a live stream video on YouTube, where you will be fielding questions
from our viewers. So, Dean, thank you so much for being with me.

DR: My pleasure.

For those of you watching or listening thank you for being with us.

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