Olive Drab - and Some Confusion: Vingtor

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Olive Drab - and some confusion
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By Vingtor, August 11, 2013 in WWII
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Vingtor Posted August 11, 2013  #1

Very Obsessed Member
Well, I know that the old Bulletin 41 Dark Olive Drab 41 was different from the
ANA 613 Olive Drab, and even that the Dark Olive Drab 41 varied quite much.
From reading several articles and books on USAAF colors [sic], I have got the
impression that Dark Olive Drab 41 generally was a brownish colour while
ANA 613 Olive Drab was generally more greenish.
However, in an article in Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol.23 No.9 - "Shades of
Members Olive Drab" - Paul Lucas describes the Dark Olive Drab 41 as "a dark green
 755 colour when new" while ANA 613 Olive Drab is described as "brown".
1,027 posts Please enlighten me...
Gender:Male
Nils
Location:Oslo, Norway
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28/1/2020 Olive Drab - and some confusion - WWII - Britmodeller.com
Hardtarget Posted August 11, 2013 (edited)  #2

I think he has it the wrong way around as im of the opinion that ANA613 is
greener and OD41 is browner when newly painted (both faded quite a bit).
Thats what ive done with a P-40 (OD41) pre '43 and b-17s ana613 post '43.
Edited August 12, 2013 by Hardtarget
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 On 11/08/2013 at 15:15, Hardtarget said: 
P-40 (ana613) pre '42 and b-17s OD41 post '42.
Hm, ... the DOD41 was the earlier colour (pre 1943) while the ANA 613 was the
later colour, introduced in 1943.
Members
Nils
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Steven Eisenman Posted August 11, 2013  #4

"A man, a computer, an
opinion" The story about ANA 613 being browner was mistakenly attributed to Dana
Bell, and the case is actually reversed.
613 was acceptable to the RAF as Dark Green and was also accepted by the
FAA as Dark Slate Grey for aircraft made in the USA.
Thus a, perhaps, more green tone.
The USAAF did not readily adopt the use of 613,instead had stocks of OD 41
used up. 613 can be seen on those aircraft that remained in camou, like the C-
Members 47, after camouflage was dropped for most front line aircraft.
 92 The date of adoption of the ANA colors is not determinative of its use after
1,475 posts
that date.
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Republic of Massachusetts
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The USAAF stopped camouflaging their fighters and bombers about the time
the ANA colours came into use. It is the application on transport aircraft that I
am interested in, though, especially C-60 Lodestar and C-87 Liberator Express.
E.g. this one seems to be ANA 613, in my eyes.
C-87-1024.jpg
Nils
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Nick Millman Posted August 12, 2013  #6

It is not safe to use colour photographs as a means to assess paint colour in a
case like this as the following should make clear.
Firstly, to correct a few misleading statements that have been made here. The
British had formally accepted Dark Olive Drab 41 as a substitute for Dark
Green in February 1942, over a year before the paint colour standard for ANA
613 was issued. Even so Fig. 692b, Finish Specification Section 11 from Report
Gold Member No. NA-5724 (North American Aviation Structural Repair Manual) dated
November 1943 clearly shows 'Dark Olive Drab' substituted for Dark Green on
the Temperate Land scheme diagram for the Mustang. Anyone who doubts
 1,838
4,187 posts
this can see this page of the manual for themselves here:-
Gender:Male http://amair4raf.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/southern-cross-mustangs.html
Location:Over the hill and far By the time Drawing 109-00-268 was issued in the April 1944 NAA Erection
away . . .
and Maintenance Manual and Structural Repair Manual AN-O-60-3 the colour
was shown as 'Olive Drab 613'. Ergo both colours substituted for Dark Green.
Both colours are Munsell "yellows" and the actual calculated difference
between the OD41 and ANA 613 colour standard swatches as measured is
only 1.66 where 2.0 or less equals a close match. Dark Olive Drab 41 has an
ever so slightly more "greenish" appearance to some eyes, but with the
variance of actual applied paints, weathering, etc., (and pigments specified for
OD were listed as 'optional') this becomes largely academic and IMHO far too
much is made of the supposed difference between them.
ANA Bulletin 157a of March 1944 listed 613 Olive Drab with Dark Olive Drab
41, Dark Slate Gray and Dark Green as the 'Nearest Equivalent or Superceded
Colors'. This continued until Bulletin 157d of 1959 where there was no FS
equivalent (from 595) for Olive Drab listed and the 'Color Standard to be
Employed' was still shown as ANA 613.
In 1964 Bulletin 157e listed FS 'X 34087' for the first time as the color standard
to be employed for Olive Drab, superseding ANA 613, with a note that chips
for that colour could be obtained from the Coatings and Chemical Laboratory,
Aberdeen Proving Ground. This colour standard was noticeably browner in
appearance than both the previous Dark Olive Drab 41 and ANA 613 but has
been attributed as a "match" for the latter which is where some of the
confusion about this colour might have arisen in the past. The calculated
difference between the 1964 FS 34087 and ANA 613 is 4.65 where 2.0 or less is
a close match and the calculated difference between FS 34087 and OD 41 is
6.00. Visually the FS colour is significantly "browner" and if used as a "match"
for ANA 613 would give rise to the impression that colour was "browner" than
Dark Olive Drab 41. In his 'USAAF camouflage 1933-1969' (1969) Ross Whistler
noted that "613 is substantially darker and greener than X 34087".
There are various technical pigmentation factors which also had a bearing on
the development and visual appearance of these colours which I won't go into
here.
Anyone who wants the actual measurements for these various colour
standards - or indeed rendered chips of them - is welcome to pm me.
Nick
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Work In Progress Posted August 12, 2013 (edited)  #7

Completely Obsessed Member
deleted as unnecessary!
Edited August 12, 2013 by Work In Progress
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Hardtarget Posted August 12, 2013  #8

 On 11/08/2013 at 15:23, Vingtor said: 
Hm, ... the DOD41 was the earlier colour (pre 1943) while the ANA 613
was the later colour, introduced in 1943.
Nils
My error I had them the wrong way around. your statement is correct and is
Members
what ive done.
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1,167 posts
I used these paint call outs.
Gender:Male http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_us.htm
Location:Aylesford, Kent
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Jennings Heilig Posted August 12, 2013  #9

Well, I know that the old Bulletin 41 Dark Olive Drab 41 was different
from the ANA 613 Olive Drab, and even that the Dark Olive Drab 41
varied quite much. From reading several articles and books on USAAF
colors [sic], I have got the impression that Dark Olive Drab 41 generally
Banned
was a brownish colour while ANA 613 Olive Drab was generally more
 602
4,638 posts greenish.
Gender:I'd rather not say However, in an article in Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol.23 No.9 - "Shades of
Location:Gone Olive Drab" - Paul Lucas describes the Dark Olive Drab 41 as "a dark
green colour when new" while ANA 613 Olive Drab is described as
"brown".
Please enlighten me...
Nils
The hazards of using words to describe colors (which is not 'sic' btw... at least
on this side of the Atlantic). What looks green to you might look brown to me.
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hacker Posted August 12, 2013  #10

Scale Aircraft Modelling Vol.23 No.9 - "Shades of Olive Drab" - Paul Lucas
Nils
would be interested in reading this any chance l get a scan of this?
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Interests:1/72 & 1/32 aircraft,
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Fernando Posted August 13, 2013  #11

Hi, all,
Just some comments.
Robert Archer regarded Humbrol 108 "RFC Green" as the closest match to
DOD n°41, explaining the colour lineage from the RFC planes the US Army
received in WWI. It is a "greener" version of the colour; Xtracolour, for
instance, is much browner. I got a score of tins in a supermarket at Nairobi.
Members That ANA 613 had been accepted as "substitute" for MAP Dark Green doesn't
 154 build a case for its "greenishy"... it was not considered the same colour; the
1,313 posts fact that it had also been accepted as substitute for DSG excludes that
Gender:Male
possibility.
Location:Bonn, Nordrhein-
Westfalen, Deutschland Hobby paints depicting "FS 34087" are considerably lighter (to my eye
browner, but that might be a personal perception); I have seen many a model
of an USAAC/USAAF plane with that tone and looks terrible (especially when
paired to "FS 36270 Neutral Grey" unders...).
Fernando
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Test Graham Posted August 13, 2013  #12

I recall (I no longer have the reference) the original Harleyford book on
camouflage referred to the USAAF's C-47s as being in Dark Earth. That seems
a pretty good guide to what the real aircraft looked like to the (British) naked
eye observer, as opposed to years of staring at colour photos of possibly
doubtful reproduction. I have also seen comment to the effect that OD was
considered an acceptable alternative to Dark Earth as well as to Dark Green -
Members though presumably not on the same aircraft.
 267
6,434 posts Over the past decades, it certainly did/does appear that the earlier the
Gender:Male
timescale of the photo, the more likely that the colour reproduced as
brownish, and this is (I'm sure) behind the many comments to that effect in
modelling magazines and guides. See photos of the famous P-51B "Shangri-
La" for this effect. How real this effect can be argued, the same photo
appearing green in some printing and brown in another - or even blue, but
that's a different argument (and Mustang!).
There are some fairly good colour reproductions of early C-47s that do show a
number of different shades of OD on the same aircraft, the fuselage being
almost Sand, the wings a greeny-grey. The only parts that look to be as dark
as the official OD41 are those areas that supposedly would have been in
Medium Green. I've not seen any photos of the combat types with this degree
of brown.
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Fernando Posted August 14, 2013 (edited)  #13

Hi, Graham,
Transport planes were most probably painted in ANA 613. It is a fact that
USAAC preferred OD 41 and stuck to it for as long as possible; it is even
possible that, with the order to remove camouflage coming soon after, there
were no fighter planes finished in ANA 613/603. However, transport, liason
and export planes were especifically exempted from the order, therefore they
Members went on being camouflaged. I guess it would be possible to track
 154 subcontractors and see if some of them had stocks of OD 41 left, while others
1,313 posts were already using ANA 613. I think that that's why ANA 613 was considered
Gender:Male
browner than OD 41; colour pictures of C-47s (and B-17s) show a distinct
Location:Bonn, Nordrhein-
Westfalen, Deutschland lighter and browner look (not unlike FS 34087), but that's subjective.
Of course you could use OD 41 as the "brown" element of a "green/brown"
camouflage, provided the "green" element is "green enough"! (for years
people have been erroneously painting Dutch Buffalos in Olive Drab and
Medium Green) But it looks like it was not even considered; by the time of the
ANA 157 Bulletin, the Day Fighter scheme had been adopted and the old TLS
was only used in the SEAC, a forgotten theater of operations.
Fernando
Edited August 14, 2013 by Fernando
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Dave Fleming Posted August 14, 2013  #14

I think that was one of Paul's articles that he later amended his opinion on
based on later researches.
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In March 1944, the date of publishing (intent being somewhat earlier) TLS was
still being used in Bomber Command, by light bombers in 2nd TAF, on
trainers, on other second-line aircraft and in Italy. Not just in SEAC. It may be
true that generally this scheme would not be seen on non-British aircraft, in
particular not on Lend-Lease types, but this is not comprehensive.
I would also point out that the C-87 above is a 1941 Fiscal Year aircraft, so will
Members certainly have been built before the introduction of the ANA colours. Whilst
 267 being duly circumspect about viewing a colour photo on a monitor, I have no
6,434 posts problem in accepting the C-87 as being in OD41 of some variety.
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 On 13/08/2013 at 11:15, Graham Boak said: 
I recall (I no longer have the reference) the original Harleyford book on

camouflage referred to the USAAF's C-47s as being in Dark Earth. That
seems a pretty good guide to what the real aircraft looked like to the
(British) naked eye observer, as opposed to years of staring at colour
Gold Member
photos of possibly doubtful reproduction. I have also seen comment to
the effect that OD was considered an acceptable alternative to Dark Earth
 1,838 as well as to Dark Green - though presumably not on the same aircraft.
4,187 posts
Gender:Male
FWIW the Harleyford reference is a bit ambiguous. On page 146 it describes
C-47s in Britain as follows:-
Location:Over the hill and far "The first American transports to be operated in Britain were Douglas C-47
away . . .
Skytrains finished either in khaki and dark grey or olive drab and dark grey."
On page 138 the author Bruce Robertson refers to a "brown" being used in
North Africa:-
"Later a brown was usual for this area as shown on page 122".
Page 122 has a colour profile of a C-47 captioned as follows:-
"In camouflage typical of some U.S.A.A.F. aircraft in the Middle East is a C-47 A-
80-DL as it appeared in October 1945."
It is depicted in a strong orange-brown colour over grey and that this is not
meant to represent OD is shown by the profile of a B-26 beneath it in a colour
more representative of OD and described as "olive drab and grey".
On page 118 is another description:-
"Hundreds (of Dakotas) were delivered to the RAF in temperate land scheme and
sky undersurfaces to M.A.P. specification, but many served in R.A.F. markings
with an American olive drab and neutral grey camouflage."
And in regard to RAF Daks in SEAC - page 124:-
"Most of the R.A.F. Dakotas were in American olive drab or khaki with blue or
light grey undersurfaces. . ."
I can't see any reference to the Middle East "brown" as being Dark Earth but
what springs immediately to mind in this context is the US Corps of Engineers
colours for North Africa. The distinction between OD and "khaki" on US aircraft
is also somewhat intriguing. All of these descriptions appear to refer to colours
actually seen on aircraft so again the issues of individual perception and
illumination are inevitable.
Nick
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Thanks Nick, but I was assuming that my memory (whether correct or not)
referred to the smaller book published in the late 40s rather than the 1954
tome. I suspect that "olive drab", "Khaki", and "brown" in the above are simply
referring to different shades of OD, in different states of weathering.
It is interesting to see the differing descriptions of the underside as "dark
grey", "grey", "neutral grey" and "light grey", yet there are those who tell us
Members that only Neutral Grey was ever used.
 267
6,434 posts
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"I suspect that "olive drab", "Khaki", and "brown" in the above are simply
referring to different shades of OD, in different states of weathering."
Yes, I think that is probably so.
From the earlier 1946 Owen Thetford book, page 88:-
"Douglas Dakota transports used in Great Britain in 1942 were mostly olive
green on the upper surfaces and neutral grey underneath, though some were
Gold Member olive green both above and below".
Can't see any reference to Daks in Dark Earth. The only profile of a US Dak
appears to show it in OD over grey.
 1,838
Nick
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away . . .
Steven Eisenman Posted August 14, 2013  #19

"A man, a computer, an
opinion"
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Lovely photo, but an impressed civil DC-3 left behind - in France, I suggest,
from the early fin flash. There can't have been many such, so the serial (and
previous identity) should be traceable. Underside Yellow?
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Not sure of the relevance of posting that eBay picture without comment. As to
the aircraft identity:-
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-30722.html
Read all the way down...
Nick
Gold Member
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away . . .
stevehnz Posted August 14, 2013  #22

Blabber Mouth
Probably well out of my depth here but I wonder if the reference to Khaki
could have referred to the Sand colour that US P-40s wore in Nth Africa.
Would this have ever fearured on C-47s in this theatre which may have later
found their way to SEA?
Steve.
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stravinsk75 Posted August 14, 2013  #23

Newbie
Typically early war OD colours were greener, and by 1944 a lighter brownish
color seems definitely more common, especially on B-26s and C-47s. This is
even when the B-26s are early Bs, but probably they were repainted later.
Probably types that were left out in the open more maybe?
The Ninth Air Force in colour book shows a predominance of the brown on
large aircrafts in 1944-45, while some P-51Bs of late 1943 are clearly much
Banned greener. This early P-40 in factory seems to show the opposite, and is fairly
3 light for an aircraft in factory before 1944, but it could just be an overexposed
36 posts photo (fin of second aircraft, in shadows, is much darker/greener)...:
http://www.ratomodeling.com/articles/AVG_cammo/
The C-87 posted here is in an early war aircraft, very new, and the strong green
colour is much more typical of what I would expect of the period.
It could be the later 1943 paint simply faded much faster, maybe to the point
of being brown on delivery, as they sat quite a bit in factory yards. An
exceptionally sunny 1944 spring could explain all the difference...
Jean
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John M Posted August 15, 2013  #24

Newbie
Here's a couple interesting photos...........faded paint or different colours?
The Mustang photo can also be found in the September 1998 issue of Scale
Aircraft Modelling. The photo caption reads 'This shot of an early production
P-51B next to a P-51 clearly shows the differences in nose profile and
Members propellors'.
3
30 posts I assume the ambulances are the same colour but show new and faded paint.
Gender:Male
Location:Vancouver Island
John
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The pigment formula for Dark Olive Drab 41 was not specified but listed as
'optional'. This allowed manufacturers to formulate their own pigments for OD
paints which whilst ostensibly matched to a single standard (and the Army
vehicle standard was 319 in Spec. 3-1 of 1943) would inevitably head in
different directions with exposure, treatment and weathering. There was also
an acknowledgement of variance in the provision of paints as advised in Army
Gold Member
FM 5-20H - Camouflage Materials and Manufacturing Techniques, Section 1.

Paragraph 5, PAINTS. (e). ... of July 1944:-
 1,838
4,187 posts "In spite of color standardization, there is considerable variation in hue between
Gender:Male lots and between the products of different manufacturers."
Location:Over the hill and far There was also a difference in the appearance of the gloss and matt versions
away . . .
of the colour, used for different purposes.
Nick
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Military Aircraft Modelling Discussion by Era WWII    

Olive Drab - and some confusion

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Olive Drab - and some confusion  Sign in to follow this Followers 4

By Vingtor, August 11, 2013 in WWII

Vingtor Posted August 11, 2013  #1

Hardtarget Posted August 11, 2013 (edited)  #2

Very Obsessed Member

Vingtor Posted August 11, 2013  #3

 On 11/08/2013 at 15:15, Hardtarget said: 

P-40 (ana613) pre '42 and b-17s OD41 post '42.

Steven Eisenman Posted August 11, 2013  #4

Vingtor Posted August 12, 2013  #5

Nick Millman Posted August 12, 2013  #6

Work In Progress Posted August 12, 2013 (edited)  #7

Hardtarget Posted August 12, 2013  #8

 On 11/08/2013 at 15:23, Vingtor said: 

Jennings Heilig Posted August 12, 2013  #9

 On 11/08/2013 at 15:04, Vingtor said: 

hacker Posted August 12, 2013  #10

 On 11/08/2013 at 15:04, Vingtor said: 

would be interested in reading this any chance l get a scan of this?

Fernando Posted August 13, 2013  #11

Test Graham Posted August 13, 2013  #12

Fernando Posted August 14, 2013 (edited)  #13

Dave Fleming Posted August 14, 2013  #14

Test Graham Posted August 14, 2013  #15

Nick Millman Posted August 14, 2013  #16

 On 13/08/2013 at 11:15, Graham Boak said: 

I recall (I no longer have the reference) the original Harleyford book on

Test Graham Posted August 14, 2013  #17

Nick Millman Posted August 14, 2013  #18

Steven Eisenman Posted August 14, 2013  #19

Test Graham Posted August 14, 2013  #20

Nick Millman Posted August 14, 2013  #21

stevehnz Posted August 14, 2013  #22

stravinsk75 Posted August 14, 2013  #23

John M Posted August 15, 2013  #24

Nick Millman Posted August 15, 2013  #25

FM 5-20H - Camouflage Materials and Manufacturing Techniques, Section 1.

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WWII Olive Drab - and some confusion

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