Yangqi Zheng

COGS 102B

20 February 2020

Conflicting Mental Models of Introspection as Purposeful vs. Non-purposeful Activity in an

Interview with an Aspiring Buddhist with a Jesuit Upbringing

Even within the most established canons of contemplative practice, we find a tension

between whether the activity of contemplation and introspection is to be directed toward a

purpose or not. Quite explicitly, for example, from topics 3 and 4 of Dzogchen’s Beacon of

Certainty given in verse 0.1.1.2.2.1.4: “Does meditation involve modal apprehension?/ Does one

meditate analytically or transically?” (Petit 1999, p. 195). Even when this text, or its sources and

commentaries within various Buddhist traditions (e.g. Bodhicharyavatara, Guhyugharba Tantra,

Stainless Light), give an answer, it is not definitively in favor of either option.

The subject of my interview, Lucas, says early in the interview that he went to a

“Catholic all boys school,” (1:31) but a little later that he “wants to be Buddhist” (11:53). A

portion of the interview where Lucas describes his experience of introspection illustrates several

tensions in his own mental models of introspection, possibly influenced by differences between

Buddhist and Jesuit perspectives, but also indicative of tensions within each, and in a more

general model of mind and introspection not particular to an existing tradition.

When asked “what are some of the common themes in your introspection?”, Lucas

answers with items organized roughly fitting with D’Andrade’s folk model of the mind as

compartmentalized into aspects (1987, p. 36-37): first simple emotional states “self-hatred” and

“regret”, then “a lot of cyclical spiral type behavior?”, then “a recognition of my way too high

expectations”, then “thinking about what other people have told me to try to remember.” The
progression of topics seems to have a self-consistent organization, from more immediate and

salient (feelings, emotional textures), to gradually more ephemeral and abstract (thoughts,

expectations, memories).

The mention of “cyclical spiral type behavior” is particularly interesting in that it applies

a metaphor of spacial shape and motion to describe a certain kind of “mental behavior.” Lucas’s

rising intonation when giving this item is significant, expressing his own uncertainty of the

suitability of the description, and perhaps whether it would be adequately understood. Yet the

metaphor is not original nor uncommon, implicitly alluding to ideas like the Gnostic symbolism

of Ouroboros, or to the Buddhist motif of cyclical rebirth in samsara.

Lucas’s subsequent discussion of his introspective activity suggests an extension of this

model of mind, where “introspection” is a transformative activity with the function of modifying

aspects of the mind. However, there is an apparent tension in whether this transformation is to be

directed toward particular aims, and in what these aims are. Some of the tension can be explained

by differences between dominant Christian vs. Buddhist models of the mind and of the process

of introspective practice, both of which Lucas is familiar with.

At one point, Lucas makes this tension quite explicit when mentions the intention of

“focusing on awareness, acceptance, and clarity of thought as opposed to like faith and salvation

and, like, guilt, right,” and also later when he elaborates on the structure and purpose of Ignatian

exercises, and says “Um so I think this was a really uhhh powerful way, maybe to, to show the

positive of, uh, you know Christian spirituality as well as make people who are religious more

religious. I don’t think it helped most of us…”, directly signaling a distinction between his model

of “Christian spirituality” versus his own current spirituality.

 Lucas’s idea here is mirrored more elaborately in Bataille’s comments on the Ignatian

exercises in the chapter “Principles of a Method and a Community” of Inner Experience: “they

rely on discourse which regulates everything, but in the dramatic mode. Discourse exhorts…

remain there as one among them [the characters in the drama]… extend for that reason your

will… The truth is that the Exercises, in absolute horror of discourse (of absence), try to cope

with it through the tension of discourse, and this artifice often fails” (1943, p. 49). The discursive

system of the Ignatian exercises is an example of a cultural semiotic system as described by

Morillas in “The Cultural Cognitive Model: A Programmatic Application” (p. 57-58), which

functions to “supply the possibility of sharing common orientations in terms of belief-systems,

scenarios, scripts… a means of social symbolization through metaphoric signification patterns”,

and Lucas recognizes it explicitly as such, describing the utility of Ignatian exercises for “people

who are religious”, yet distancing himself from these people.

In the first annotation to the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, “by this name of Spiritual

Exercises is meant every way of examining one’s conscience, of meditating, of contemplating, of

praying vocally and mentally, and of performing other spiritual actions… every way of preparing

and disposing the soul to rid itself of all the disordered tendencies, and after it is rid, to seek and

find the Divine Will… is called a Spiritual Exercise.” Yet Lucas, though aware of this system,

expresses that he is outside it, and that he does not consider it comprehensive. His own mental

model of the practice of introspection is nuanced by holding a personal model of larger tradition-

centered cultural models of cognition.

Morillas writes also that “all cultures encode their awareness of individuality… The

manifestation of this categorization is likely to be a specific view on the relationship between the

demands of private life and those of social commitments” (p. 59) But the culture within which
Lucas is embedded is a compound one, difficult to ascribe a constituency to, and we can see the

effects of this on both the way Lucas conceives of the nature of introspection (often part of a

grander social practice within a monolithic tradition with a clear constituency) and in how he

describes his own sense of identity. He says after a long 5 second pause, “Sometimes I’ll listen to

music(.), which (.), I guess ruins it. Maybe I- I should do it more purely.” But “purely” by what

standard? He later says, “what’s particularly interesting, I’m uh I just searched up introspection

(.) is like (1s) uh, (.) what (.) am I able to tell about myself in terms of stories, right? Like, what

(.), what I guess, i- i::: if you take like the Hamilton thing, like what is my story, right?”

Referring to neither Jesuit nor Buddhist canons, Lucas searches “introspection” on the internet

for inspiration and alludes to the Broadway musical Hamilton to convey a thematic idea about

what he perceives as a purpose of introspection.

 Appendix: Interview Index and Transcription

Index

Bold = chosen for transcription

Italics = interviewer’s question

Time {min:sec} Content

0:00 Introducing the interview format, getting consent to record
0:29 “First, can you just introduce yourself however you think is appropriate.”
0:37 “Um, what does that mean? What is this for?”
0:45 “Just what about yourself do you think is important”
0:48 “Well, that’s very contextual my dude. Well, my name is Lucas. I was born in
Germany, 2001…”
1:03 Lucas describes his family history
1:31 “So, my brother and I moved over, went to first international then public then a
Catholic all boys school…”
1:39 “I did a lot of… volunteer service… and that helped me get into Harvard, where
I’m now studying economics…”
2:03 “Originally I had intended… to do computer science for the idea of using AI to
fight climate change”
2:12 “So, right now, I am coordinating… this nonprofit…”
2:41 “Okay, so why did you go from computer science to economics?”
2:45 “Yeah, so, first of all in my high school, we had more… religious teachers and
science teachers so there wasn’t much of a computer science background…”
3:05 Taking intro CS courses at MIT/Harvard and not liking them.
3:38 “But three, it’s also like a social thing, right, like all my classmates, I would
assume, would be like really really good at CS, right…”
4:02 “And since I’m doing research assistant at like a really really nice economics lab,
I was like okay, it doesn’t make sense for me not to do economics…”
4:17 “So in your initial introduction, you mentioned being born in Germany. Did you
grow up in Germany?”
4:22 “Five years yeah. So it’s part of my identity but not necessarily my personality.
Yeah.”
4:29 “Okay, so can you identify any ways in which growing up in Germany has made
you different from the peers around you instead of just like growing up in the US?”
4:40 “Um, that’s a good question. My father would always tell me, ‘You’re not
American. You’re German, you’re Chinese or Taiwanese’…”
5:06 Lucas discusses several cultural stereotypes
5:51 “And then, that also I think extends to just matters of common sense.”
6:00 “Can you say more about ‘matters of common sense’? Like what’s an example of
a matter of common sense?”
6:05 “Yeah, I guess it’s just general double checking things, right, or thinking over
and not doing stupid things.”
6:17 Lucas talks about parenting vs. national culture, national culture inhibiting his
personal dispositions, and more stereotypes of Americans as wild, crazy, and stupid.
 7:03 Not fitting stereotypes neatly but having some German stereotype qualities, and
being critical of American stereotype qualities
7:49 “So do you think the Americans around you that you interact with fit well into
these stereotypes?”
7:55 “Yeah, obviously not. I mean I’ve met a couple that do and then they act
differently…” Talks about cases and exceptions
8:18 “But um, I think, I can’t answer the question very well, just because I’m not
German anymore, right. Maybe I never was seeing that it’s been over 14 years.”
8:33 “Um, so going back to the topic of you studying economics in school. So what is
your lab researching now?”
8:41 “Yeah, so, opportunity insights. We generally research the American dream…”
Upward mobility, effects of COVID, specific topics of analysis.
10:10 “So what I worked on over the summer was pretty much data cleaning, so
collecting…” Various specifics about data sets; can’t discuss specifics because
under NDA
11:15 “All right, let’s change the topic a bit then. So, you asked me a while ago about my
Taijitu/Tree of Life tweet. So how you you get into that kind of esoteric stuff?”
11:28 “Yeah, I want to get into it, I’m not quite into it and so that’s why it seemed
really interesting to me...” Interest in esoterica, especially Buddhism and Kabbalah
11:53 “And a big inspiration I think is just cultural influences for me…” Spirituality in
the family, attending various Christian churches, “I want to be Buddhist”, wanting
to get deeper into Buddhism and meditation
12:42 “So you mentioned going to all these Christian institutions, but then wanting to
be Buddhist. So what draws you to Buddhism, over like a Christian tradition?”
12:51 Lucas talks about differences he perceives between Buddhism and Christianity,
especially how Buddhism seems to be more encouraging of personal observation
and thought.
14:19 “So what kind of role does spirituality play in your life today?”
14:28 Attending a Christian fellowship, a habit of walking, the experience of
“wandering”
15:29 “So you mentioned how these mystical traditions seem to promise, like, more
insight into spirituality than more common traditions. So, can you be more specific,
like what kinds of things do you expect from more esoteric traditions than other
traditions can offer?”
16:01 “I think perspective, right, they also write differently…” Feeling like mass is
boring but liking confession; liking eastern metaphysical concepts
18:12 “So what did you enjoy about confession that was better than the rest of
service?”
18:18 “Well one it’s cathartic, right, it’s kinda cool…” The appeal of honesty, some
Christian theology, Lucas’s own struggles and interpretations
20:42 “And you mentioned like how some of these spiritual traditions have changed your
perspective on things. Can you give a more specific example of that, of like how
your perspective has been changed?”
20:52 Lucas briefly has to take care of something outside the interview.
21:19 “So I’m gonna steal something that’s not spiritual…” Discusses Atomic Habits
and connects his thoughts about human behavior with thoughts about Christianity
22:09 “Like, yeah, if you assume that Jesus was the most important person ever, then
yes it’s important to know that but sometimes you don’t believe that, you know it’s
not going to be that important…”
 22:26 “You mentioned having this Notion where you take notes. What are you taking
notes about?”
22:31 Lucas describes a freshman seminar on Buddhism, things he’s taken from it, and
connections to Christianity and Judaism
25:17 “Okay, and you also mentioned like Buddhism offering this new vocabulary for like
introspection and thinking about mental processes. So like, do you think of your
own mental processes in terms of like a Buddhist framework now?”
25:40 “And again, I’m sort of an imposter…” Talks about differences in noticing his
own thoughts, and about having words for different meditative practices.
26:21 “Yeah, and I don’t generally think about that since that sometimes feels
antithetical, right, like, I shouldn’t be thinking about thinking when I’m not trying
to think.”
26:34 “So how often do you like, find yourself engaging in introspection?”
26:42 “Broadly speaking, all the time…”
26:56 “And so like, what are some of the common themes in your introspection”
27:02 “I guess, lot of self-hatred, a lot of regret, a lot of cyclical type behavior…”
Continues to describe introspective practice and how he feels he should
introspect; gives several specific examples.
28:24 “And then, what’s particularly interesting, I just searched up introspection,
is like, what am I able to tell about myself in terms of stories…”
29:25 “Okay, so you mentioned you just searched up ‘introspection’. Like, what did
you expect to find about introspection on the internet that you didn’t already
know?”
29:36 “Well, more words that would fit into my response in the sense of like
putting a name to what I do…” Mentions “Ignatian exercises” and
introspective practice in Jesuit school
31:01 “I don’t think it helped most of us since Catholic school I think is the best
way to make your kid, like, agnostic.”
31:13 “And why do you say that? Like, what about Catholic schools turns people away
from being Christian, and from being atheist?”
31:23-34:56 “Here, you know, I’m actually writing a poem about my school right now for my
English workshop…” He reads the poem and gives some commentary.

Transcription
Red = interviewer, Black = interviewee, Bold = emphasis, (.) = micropause, ({duration}) = long pause
Strikethrough = unclear, ::: = prolongation, (hhh) = audible exhalation, (.hhh) = audible inhalation

[26:56] And::: so like what are (.) some of the common themes (.) in your introspection?
(1s) (.hh) Uh::: I guess (.) a lot of self hatred, right (.) uh, a lot of (.) regret. (1s) [something falls] Oh, a
lot of cyclical spiral type behavior? (.hhh) um, (2s) Also:::, like (.) a recognition of my::: way too high
expectations (0.5s) and::: (.) thinking about (.) what other people have told me (.) to try to remember.
(.hhh)
Um:::, what else could I introspect about. (5s) Sometimes I’ll listen to music (.), which (.), I guess ruins
it. Maybe I- I should do it more purely. Um, and::: in- in terms of just observing my mental state, I- I
tried to do that whenever I take a nap, um, which I- I’m trying to do now like whenever I do a break and
stuff, you know instead of going on Reddit, or Imgur::: or Twitter I’ll just, you know, sit down, think (.)
and um, eh uh i- I’ll notice, like, i- i- if I’m uncomfortable::: if I’ve like some pain. (.) Um, then just
about like mentally (.) what- what sort of behavior, like in my in the class that I was in, that I like (.) talk
too much. And it’s also useful now to use actual tools and so this is like (.) computer assisted
introspection right? When you look in your calendar, or uh for otter dot aye i::: I can see exactly
everything I said that day, right? (.hhh) Um, and then (.) uh what’s particularly interesting I’m uh I just
searched up introspection (.) is like (1s) uh, (.) what (.) am I able to tell about myself in terms of stories,
right? Like, what (.), what I guess, i- i::: if you take like the Hamilton thing, like what is my story, right?
Um, tsk and then (.) maybe who tells it, why would they tell it, and uh, how can that change based on:::, I
guess what I do. And in general, just thinking about how (.) um, you know I- I- I could be more proactive
I rather than (.) reactive, how can I change things? So, uh uh i- it’s like nudging myself into (.) maybe (.)
equanimity (.) not think about like what’s discomforting me. Um, so (.) focusing on awareness,
acceptance, and clarity of thought as opposed to like faith (.) and salvation and:::, like, guilt, right.
[29:25] Okay, so, like you mentioned you just (.) searched up (.) introspection. (.) Um, like what- what
did you expect to find about introspection on the internet that like you didn’t (.) already know?
Well, more words that I could fit into my response in the sense of like (.hhh) putting a name to what I do.
An- an- and to, I guess, get a better answer, tsk, since, for me, I don’t really (hhh) like, I- I consider
myself really introspective (hhh). Ah, at school luckily, with this this thing called Ignatian exercises, it’s
based on you know, founder of the Jesuits Ignatius Loyola and (.) he basically just went in a cave and
was like, (.) Wh- (.) wh- (.) who am I, what am I doing, why am I doing everything, and why am I doing
(.) everything, and I’m like, quadrupled that in terms of meta-ness. So, the- the big takeaway there is
every (.) every afternoon, would (hhh) Oh, um, we would say ay::: his prayer for generosity and then
(.hhh) every Friday we would do the Examen, which is basically one minute, (.) where everyone is silent
and just thinks and listens to the. the speaker. (1s) asked, um (hhh) Let me, let me see if I can (.) do it (.)
right now, because I think that might be useful for you. (3s) (hhh) Um, every school does differently, but
(.) it’s become aware of God’s presence, review the day of gratitude in this case the week, pay attention to
your emotions, choose one feature of the day and pray for m- it and look forward to tomorrow. (.) So
basically seeing, and um, and and looking for God, and and in everything. And::: that also neatly fits
within ad maiorem dei gloriam, like towards the greater glory of God. (.hhh) Um so I think this was a
really uhhhh powerful way, maybe to, to show the positive of, uh, you know Christian spirituality as well
as make people who are religious more religious, I don’t think it helped most of us since (.hhh) Catholic
school I think is the best way to make your kid, like, agnostic.
 References

Bataille, G. (1988). Inner Experience. New York: State University of New York

Press. ISBN 0-88706-635-6.

D'Andrade, R. (1987). A folk model of the mind. Cultural Models in Language and Thought,

112-148. doi:10.1017/cbo9780511607660.006

Ignatius, & Mottola, A. (2014). The spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius. New York: Image Books.

Morillas, J. M. M. (1997). The Cultural Cognitive Model: A Programmatic Application.

Cuadernos de Filología Inglesa, 6(2), 53–63.

Pettit, J. W., & Mipham. (1999). Mipham's Beacon of certainty: Illuminating the view of

Dzogchen, the Great Perfection. Boston, MA: Wisdom Publications.