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Ancestral Health: NOT a Path to Getting

Jacked
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Christian_Thibaudeau #1 January 3, 2023, 7:00am

The Myths of Primal Living

Were our warrior ancestors jacked? Did cavemen have striated glutes? No and no. Here’s the truth
about ancient, primal, and tribal life.

The Fraudulent King of Cavemen

Will living like a caveman or a tribesman score you a jacked and shredded body? If you’ve been
following certain fitness and lifestyle influencers, you might start to think so. Let’s talk about the most
egregious example of this: Brian “The Liver King” Johnson.

If you haven’t heard about him, here’s an overview:

He’s the owner of a supplement company that offers desiccated liver, kidney, and bone marrow.
 He created the Liver King persona to encourage the ancestral lifestyle. His version of this includes
eating almost exclusively meat or a “nose-to-tail” diet that emphasizes organs.
He promotes eating most of his meat and organs raw. But if you can’t stomach that, no problem, you
can just buy his supplements.
He’s unbelievably jacked and charismatic, which makes him highly persuasive. People tend to follow
those who appear to be walking the walk and announcing it everywhere.
He built a humongous Instagram and Tik Tok following (yes, I’m jealous) by telling the world that
his consumption of meat and offal was the secret behind his physique.
He went on several high-profile podcasts and used his accounts to say over and over that his muscle
mass was simply due to training 14 times a week and living an ancestral life.
He did this while living in a multimillion-dollar house, having a private chef, and many other
luxuries, which don’t seem super ancestral.
He was adamant that he never took steroids, but then he was outed after writing about his PED use in
a private email and asking for advice regarding his cycles.
He then publicly apologized for his mistake but maintained that ancestral/primal living is the main
reason behind his muscularity.

Now Let’s Talk About It

If he was doing all this – being jacked and praising ancestral living – as more of an entertainer, it
wouldn’t be a problem. But he was essentially giving people the idea that his meat-only lifestyle was the
key to his physique.

To be clear, ancestral and primal living has never, throughout history, led to a physique like Liver King.
His whole schtick simply takes advantage of a romanticized perception of what ancestral tribes and
ancient warriors looked like. It’s a vision highly influenced by movies and TV.
Cavemen And Tribes Still Living Primitive Lives
A good example of a tribe that lives exactly like what the Liver King calls “ancestral or primal” are the
Maasais. They still live like humans did thousands of years ago. Their diet is mostly animal foods, they
hunt, they live as a tribe, etc.

Now, Maasais are taller than most populations and very healthy. They have low incidences of diabetes,
high blood pressure, and cardiovascular problems. And this is despite eating a very high fat, high protein
diet. They pose a problem for those who claim that a high-fat, meat-filled diet is bad for your health.

They’re also among the tallest populations – on average – in the world. Their average height is almost
6’2," and they jump very high! While this is all good, none of them have a physique that could be
described as big and muscular (à la Liver King). Yes, they’re lean, but they’re mostly skinny with some
decent muscle definition.

So let’s go back, way back, to our original ancestor, Homo erectus, who could perfectly fit the “primal
living” category. They were, on average, between 5’3" to 5’7" and their body weight varied from 88 to
143 pounds. Even the bigger cavemen were very far from the muscular body Liver King said was built
by his primal living approach.

We have this image of cavemen being big and muscular. In reality, they looked more like marathon
runners. In fact, from a survival perspective, having a large amount of muscle mass wasn’t an
advantage. It could even be a pretty big hindrance when you have to walk all day and face time periods
without food. More muscle gives you a bigger engine, which requires more fuel.

I know what you’re thinking: “Yeah, but they didn’t train. Had they trained, they would have looked
jacked.”

Really?

Let’s look at some “ancestral” populations (using Liver King’s own loose description of ancestral) that
did train.
We Are Sparta!
We all have this image of the ripped and muscular Spartan warrior, thanks to the 300 movie franchise
(and some TV shows). It influenced several modern gyms and CrossFit boxes, which are named after
Sparta or its warriors.

While Spartan warriors were in great physical condition and did train pretty much all day long, they
were not muscular hulks, nor did they look like their movie representation.

The average Spartan warrior was tall, a bit taller on average than most Greek citizens, but he wasn’t
large. Spartan warriors valued endurance, speed, and agility a lot more than strength. These qualities
were a lot more important to success in battles, especially if you needed to walk long distances to get
there.

In fact, the average Spartan warrior (according to most valid historical anthropometric data) was 5’7" to
5’10" (three to six inches taller than the average Greek), but his weight ranged from 132 to 154 pounds.
Even the biggest Spartan warriors, at 5’10" and 154 pounds, weren’t considered big by today’s
standards.

It needs to be said that this was done on purpose: they were fed a restricted diet, often close to
starvation, to keep their weight down. They also believed this would build mental fortitude.

Spartan warriors were great not because of an overpowering physique but because they were highly
trained. They started training early in their childhood. They were physically resilient and had a different
mindset than most other warriors. They were lean but not the hulking muscular figures we see in
movies. And nowhere close to Liver King.
See You in Valhalla!
But what about the mighty Vikings? Surely these men were jacked out of their minds. The Northman,
Vikings, and The Last Kingdom would not lie to me!

Just like the Spartans, Vikings were taller in stature than their European counterparts. According to
several studies, the average Viking height from the ninth to the sixteenth century was between 5’6" and
5’9". Some skeletal remains indicate that there were men as tall as 6’1", although they were rare.

Now, we need to put that into context: the average male height in Europe in the sixteenth century was
5’3". So, someone who was 5’9" was akin to someone being 6’5" in modern times. So yeah, Viking
warriors would have looked very intimidating to European warriors.

But what about their size? Well, Vikings were bigger and more muscular than other populations of their
era. And while there were bigger individuals, even up to the 275-pound range, these bigger guys were
heavy because they carried more fat.

The average body weight of a Viking warrior was in the 160-180 pound range – bigger than pretty much
all warriors at the time. But considering that it wasn’t a “ripped” 160-180, I wouldn’t put them in the
“hugely muscular” category. But they were certainly among the strongest, if not the strongest,
populations.

A lot of their size, compared to their European counterparts, was due to their high protein diet and hard
physical labor: combining farm work and boating/fishing, fight training, and even some rudimentary
strength training in the form of stone lifting and throwing. This was how they built a sturdier physique
than Spartans, who emphasized more endurance and speed while living on a more restricted diet.

I’d say that the average Viking was a lot stronger physically than many “bros” you see in gyms
nowadays, just like today’s farmers, dock workers, and lumberjacks can be a lot stronger than most
people without looking that much more muscular.
I Am Gladiator!

If you’ve seen one of my favorite movies of all time, Gladiator, you’ve seen a lot of muscular and
jacked gladiators.

Well, not really. You saw jacked actors playing gladiators. Did they accurately represent reality? Not
entirely.

For one thing, Gladiators were fattened on purpose. They ate a diet very rich in grains and fattened up
like cows (or sumo wrestlers), but not to the same extreme. Why? Because gladiators were expensive to
buy, train, feed, and treat medically. And it took time to develop a gladiator into a highly-skilled warrior.

Owners wanted to make their investment worthwhile, and that required gladiators being able to live to
fight frequently. Contrary to popular belief, most gladiator fights did not end in death.

They figured that carrying a good layer of fat cushioned them against most blows. And while there
would still be blood and pain, it would reduce their chance of dying so that they could participate in
more fights.

According to an archeological dig of a gladiator mass grave, the average height of a gladiator was 5’7"
to 5’8" with a body weight of approximately 170-175 pounds. They had more muscle than the average
citizen or even Roman warrior, but also carried a decent amount of fat.

A “not lean” 170-pounds on a 5’8" frame is hardly a Liver King body despite pretty much training all
day and consuming plenty of calories. But it’s a type of physique pretty common among those who train
hard without steroids.
Vini, Vidi, Vici!
A bit more than two thousand years ago, the Roman army was dominating the world. It was the
mightiest military force ever assembled. The quality of its individual warriors, the legionaries, was a big
part of their strength.

They took military strategy and organization, training, drilling, and preparation to a level never seen
before. Picture forced marches of around 15 miles while carrying 90 pounds of equipment. That was a
daily practice, and so was sparring, sometimes with overweight weapons. They also did a lot of physical
labor in camps. So, they must have been physical beasts, right?

Kinda, but still not muscular hulks by our standards. The average Roman soldier was between 5’6" and
5’9" with a weight between 130 and 160 pounds (just like everything else, there were exceptions that
were a bit heavier). But they were also very lean.

In a sense, the Roman soldier was very similar in body type to the Spartan warrior, without the extreme
personality! This would be more like the physique of a soccer player rather than a lifter or bodybuilder.

So, What Does Any of This Mean?

Living “like our ancestors” will not give you a Liver King-type physique (huge, ripped, and shaved). A
true ancestral warrior physique is lean and athletic, but not big. It’s built for endurance, speed, and
resilience rather than raw strength.

Don’t expect to have faster muscle growth simply by replacing all your food with raw liver and bull
testes or their pill equivalent. Now, if you have too little protein in your diet, eating more meat will
probably help you progress faster, but it doesn’t have to be raw.

That said, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. There’s a lot of good that can come from
living closer to how previous generations did:

Eating a diet of non-processed foods is better for overall health and well-being than eating a modern
diet full of junk food and fast food.
Increasing overall daily physical activity, not just through training, is also very good for your health.
There’s a mounting pile of evidence showing the health and longevity benefits you get from walking
more.
There are tremendous benefits in doing more work, building stuff with your own hands, and
carrying heavy things. This is good not only for your physical health but for your mental health.
Accomplishing a goal gives you a boost in dopamine which makes you feel better.
There’s value in overcoming true hardship, like our ancestors. We’re getting softer, weaker, more
easily offended, a lot more dependent on pharmacology, and a lot less capable of accepting
responsibility for our actions. The modern way of life is largely responsible for that. Truly tough
times make you realize how trivial most modern problems are.

So certainly, a more “ancestral lifestyle” will do you a lot of good. Just don’t expect it to make you look
huge and muscular.

20 Likes

TrainForPain #2 January 3, 2023, 7:35am

Christian_Thibaudeau:

There’s value in overcoming true hardship, like our ancestors. We’re getting softer, weaker, more
easily offended, a lot more dependent on pharmacology, and a lot less capable of accepting
responsibility for our actions. The modern way of life is largely responsible for that. Truly tough
times make you realize how trivial most modern problems are.

And you say you’re not great at closing articles - this was outstanding!

12 Likes
Christian_Thibaudeau #3 January 3, 2023, 7:36am

TrainForPain:

And you say you’re not great at closing articles - this was outstanding!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day

5 Likes

T3hPwnisher #4 January 3, 2023, 7:49am

Quote all the science you want: I will always believe in the legend of Orm Storolfsson.

But this was still an awesome article. Just a fascinating read in general.

1 Like

rhgo1 #5 January 3, 2023, 4:02pm

great and fascinating article–thanks for sharing.

1 Like

nfstern #6 January 3, 2023, 4:26pm

Great article and I think spot on.

Just an observation here.

Christian_Thibaudeau:

But they were certainly among the strongest, if not the strongest, populations.
I have an Icelandic friend and he told me stories about his stepfather who performed incredible feats of
strength. Without getting into the weeds, suffice to say a lot of those Icelandic dudes who do physical
labor are insanely strong. It’s historically been part of their value system. Their national hero is Grettir
Asmundarson who performed incredible feats of strength, stamina and endurance around 950 years ago.
Swimming a couple of miles in water barely above freezing for example. Some Icelanders still try that
feat and there’s a speed record for it. Every Icelandic boy reads Grettir’s Saga and many of them aspire
to be like him.

4 Likes

savageresolve #7 January 3, 2023, 4:26pm

We all walk around with a fuc… computer in our pocket that would have filled a building not that long
ago but mentally and, especially, physically, most have not only not made progress we have regressed
almost to the point of no return. It’s a monumental shitshow.

2 Likes

demonthrall #8 January 3, 2023, 4:26pm

Our ancestors would have eaten a whole fucking pizza if they could.

Everything they did was out of necessity.

Chris_Shugart #9 January 3, 2023, 4:26pm

nfstern:

suffice to say a lot of those Icelandic dudes who do physical labor are insanely strong.

There’s definitely something to be said about being “farm strong.” It’s not just the physical lifestyle and
hoisting odd objects, but also body awareness.

Ever see a guy who doesn’t train or have a physical labor job try to move a couch, bags of fertilizer, or
building materials? He has no idea how to move his body, brace, or take advantage of leverages. He’s
physically and neurologically “retarded.” That’s part of good ol’ farm strength too. I bet doing those
activities at a younger age plays a role as well.

Cool info about Grettir Asmundarson! Thanks!

4 Likes

TrainForPain #10 January 3, 2023, 4:26pm

I think this idea of a physical background is why sometimes we older fossils, or just folks from different
geographies, have a tougher time translating advice to different backgrounds. Our assumption is
someone grew up playing a plethora of sports or doing physical chores, but that’s more likely to not be
true in a lot of modern situations. So we get frustrated and tell folks they’re not trying to get it, but
they’re really just starting from an entirely different baseline.

1 Like

PSacramento #11 January 3, 2023, 5:01pm

I think that we have become “conditioned” to be impressed by feats that were “common place” in the
days of manual labour. Lifting heavy things and working all day is what was done, period.
Now, certina feats stick out because, well, they were not the norm, even for “back then”.
There is something to be said about just moving heavy shit around on a dainty basis.
In regards to the warriors of yesteryear, they were as strong or as fast as they needed to be and they
never (rarely) trained for “the look” and those that were “jacked” were so by virtue of side-effect and
genetics.

The_Architect13 #12 January 3, 2023, 5:43pm

Interesting article, which I broadly agree with.

That said, I’d say you are missing some of the benefits of the Liver King’s 9 Tenets of Ancestral Living.

Exposure to hot/ cold, sleeping well, connecting with nature, bonding with others / finding a role in a
community, getting sunlight exposure - these are all VERY well supported scientifically and anecdotally
as being beneficial for our health/ fitness / life.

1 Like
asarose #13 January 3, 2023, 5:59pm

https://www.science.org/content/article/viking-was-job-description-not-matter-heredity-massive-
ancient-dna-study-shows

mnben87 #14 January 3, 2023, 7:04pm

Chris_Shugart:

Ever see a guy who doesn’t train or have a physical labor job try to move a couch, bags of fertilizer,
or building materials? He has no idea how to move his body, brace, or take advantage of leverages.
He’s physically and neurologically “retarded.” That’s part of good ol’ farm strength too. I bet doing
those activities at a younger age plays a role as well.

The Kaz has mentioned his father making jobs around the farm a contest. Stuff like carrying heavy
objects from one spot to another. At least for him it transferred over well. He claims his first time
deadlifting at 16 that he pulled 6 plates. Not sure if I believe that or not haha, but I am sure he was quite
strong.

1 Like

T3hPwnisher #15 January 3, 2023, 7:20pm

The_Architect13:

Exposure to hot/ cold, sleeping well, connecting with nature, bonding with others / finding a role in
a community, getting sunlight exposure - these are all VERY well supported scientifically and
anecdotally as being beneficial for our health/ fitness / life.

The article was specifically on the topic of getting jacked though: not overall wellness.

Chris_Shugart #16 January 3, 2023, 7:50pm

 mnben87:

He claims his first time deadlifting at 16 that he pulled 6 plates. Not sure if I believe that or not
haha, but I am sure he was quite strong.

Kaz told me that story in person once. I believe him. It may not have been pretty, but I bet he did it!

1 Like

Andrew_Heffernan #17 January 3, 2023, 9:52pm

Liver King is now officially a laughing stock, but he has also just the latest example of an age-old
marketing strategy for fitness products and services: 1) Develop a catchy-sounding fitness-related
product or supplement 2) Work out, supported by tons of gear. 3) Saturate social media with shirtless
images of yourself plugging your product and denying use of PEDs. 4) Rake it in till bored or caught.
Sometimes this is done with a frontman (so you don’t have to take the gear or do the workouts yourself).
You need capital up front, but it works, over and over. Sad that this remains so effective.

2 Likes

Liftinsince79 #18 January 3, 2023, 9:54pm

Great Article! Even the greatest soldiers up until the War on Terror were usually small tough guys that
looked like nothing, but had Farm Boy strength and extraordinary mental fortitude.

Bretsky #19 January 3, 2023, 9:56pm

Similar to this I recall reading an article by Ken Leistner about how his dad who apparently was a heavy
labor steel worker or somesuch walked into Ken’s home gym one day and poked fun at him and his
lifting friends for “wasting their time” and proceeded to deadlift 600# cold. Details are a bit fuzzy- but
same idea.

2 Likes
Christian_Thibaudeau #20 January 3, 2023, 10:02pm

I think we all have a story like this!

The first time I ever hit a 500lbs deadlift was during the X-mass holidays when I was 18. We were
having a family gathering and I was always uncomfortable in those and in that case I went to my room
to lift.

When it was time to eat, one of my uncles came down to fetch me up. Looked at the still loaded bar on
the floor and asked: “How much is that?”. “500! I replied proudly”.

“Can I try it?” he asked…

I told him that he was old (ironically he was 45, the age I’m now) and not warmed up, nevertheless he
walked up and deadlifted it like it was nothing.

And he said, “That’s what you do for fun?”.

After that, I learned that his father used to have a quarry and he worked there as a kid. And he had been
a factory worker, carrying heavy beams all day long for 20+ years, That took off some of the sting.

3 Likes

JackMorris #22 January 3, 2023, 11:34pm

Christian_Thibaudeau:

Now, Maasais are taller than most populations and very healthy. They have low incidences of
diabetes, high blood pressure, and cardiovascular problems. And this is despite eating a very high
fat, high protein diet. They pose a problem for those who claim that a high-fat, meat-filled diet is
bad for your health.

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but isn’t there considerable debate amongst researchers concerning the purported
healthfulness of the Maasai diet as well as their allegedly robust health? If I recall correctly, much of the
controversy surrounds the potentially confounding variables of their physical activity (low-intensity
walking over something like 12 miles/day) and genetics.
The Maasai keep healthy despite a high-fat diet (wasn’t certain whether links were allowed so I
clipped off the https)

Furthermore, are the Maasai even big meat-eaters? “Nadja Knoll´s study shows that the traditional story
patterns about the Maasai diet are wrong.” The researcher performed extensive fieldwork and noted that
over 50% of the diet was vegetarian. They do, however, drink a lot of milk and eat a yogurt which might
have probiotic effects. They also consume plenty of porridge and cornmeal.
(Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena. “Nomadic people’s good health baffle scientists.” ScienceDaily.
ScienceDaily, 18 May 2010)

It seems the majority of meat is consumed over a 4-week period by men who can afford to attend a
“health refuge.” During this gorge, supposedly “half of participants developed disorders in their glucose
metabolism.” According to the researchers, “this reflects a temporary negative impact on their
cardiovascular risk factors.”

Apologies if this derails the comments or distracts from a fine article by one of my favorite fitness
authors. However, considering that the piece served to debunk several myths surrounding certain
tribes/cultures/peoples, I felt it appropriate to post.

Christian_Thibaudeau #23 January 3, 2023, 11:54pm

Good points. And I agree with the part about their level of physical activity likely being the main cause
of their good health (a point that was made by Alan Aragon recently). The same could be said about the
Amish population which shows robust health and low body fat levels on average even with plenty of
saturated fat (cream, butter, lard, tallow, whole milk, meat) and even sugar. A study looked at their daily
activity level and found an average of 30 000 steps per day among that population.

1 Like

Bretsky #24 January 5, 2023, 6:16pm

500# at 18! At that age I was struggling to “bench” 120 on the universal machine at my poorly equipped
hs gym. I worked at hard labor - hod carrier - for awhile. All day long spent lifting heavy stuff,

setting up scaffolds, hoisting bricks and mixing mortar and jumping to the commands of the masons. 6-8
hours/day. It did nothing for me for buidling muscle - it beat me up. I could not tolerate it and was not
able to eat enough food to keep up -basically got into an “overtrained” state of nervous and physical
exhaustion.

Christian_Thibaudeau #25 January 5, 2023, 6:57pm

I started lifting when I was 12… actually only did legs for 2 years (I started playing receiver before
switching to linebacker and I reasoned that I only needed strong legs to run fast).

By the time I was 15 I was doing a solid periodized program from our head coach who was also the
strength coach for the local college team and trained pro hockey players and Olympians (he would end
up being my first mentor).

At 18, which was my transition year from high school to college football I trained using Fred Hatfield’s
80 days powerlifting program (which is the backbone of my 915 program on T-nation) and that led to
my first 500lbs deadlift, 405 lbs squat and 300lbs bench.

So it’s really that I was gifted but that I started young and had solid training plans almost from the start.

By the time I was 18 I had been squatting for 6 years and deadlifting for 4 years.

1 Like

Barachiel #26 January 6, 2023, 6:10pm

just my .02

I would also add that his Tenets have been proclaimed by others for years. He just upped the marketing.
I know a bodybuilding company that has been selling liver tablets for decades. They never stopped.

If you want some one who actually lives this stuff I would look up herbalist Logan Christopher.

Christian_Thibaudeau #27 January 6, 2023, 8:03pm

Right, Vince Gironda was using liver tablets in the 60s.

Christian_Thibaudeau #28 January 6, 2023, 8:05pm

If you look at a guy like Paul Saladino, you have a more realistic view of the peak physical condition
that once can achieve living according to the tenets. His body composition is a lot more in line with that
of ancient Roman and Spartan warriors

2 Likes
T3hPwnisher #29 January 6, 2023, 8:10pm

Paul Kelso talked about supplementing with liver tabs in “Powerlifting Basics Texas Style” a bunch as
well.

Man, I think I’m gonna read that book again come to think about it…

Orro19 #30 January 7, 2023, 3:02pm

This was a prompt for me to purchase the kindle download, it’s been on my list to read for some time…

1 Like

The_Architect13 #33 January 9, 2023, 4:40pm

I take your point.

Still perhaps worth a mention, if only because being “weller” for longer will enable jackedness for
longer

T3hPwnisher #34 January 9, 2023, 4:46pm

If we wanna go down that route, @Dan_John has done SO much in that regard that I’d start there.

The 10 Commandments of Lifting

These straight-talking, common sense “commandments” ought to be
emblazoned on the walls of every lifting facility in the world.

Est. reading time: 10 minutes

9 Tips for Dedicated Lifters

 Ten years of lifting will give you knowledge. But Dan John has been lifting
for almost 50. That will give you wisdom. Here are his best tips.

Est. reading time: 8 minutes

Tough or Reasonable?
Which are better, tough diets and tough workouts or reasonable diets and
reasonable workouts? Maybe you need to mix and match a little.

Est. reading time: 9 minutes

Real Life Training and Eating

It's as if some training and diet programs are designed for college kids on
summer break. Here's how busy people with jobs and stuff should approach
things.

Est. reading time: 11 minutes

Be sure to pick up his newest book “The Easy Strength Omnibook” and “Never Let Go” as well!

And here’s a great roundtable on the topic with several awesome t-nation authors

The Secret to Lifting Forever

Most people quit lifting weights in their 20s, but a few become lifelong lifters. What's their
secret? What keeps them going? We ask the experts.
 Est. reading time: 19 minutes

4 Likes

The_Architect13 #35 January 10, 2023, 9:29am

That’s a lot of potentially useful info, thank you for your efforts

barley1 #36 January 10, 2023, 5:06pm

I just read that roundtable discussion. Thanks for sharing the link. Paul Carter had some gems during his
stint at T-Nation. I think he nails it here:

“…somehow you have to learn to fall in love with the process and stop worrying about the destination.”

1 Like

pepsi_kn #37 January 11, 2023, 10:42am

ancient people have to be strong to survive,

now have to be strong to demonstrate and show .
Strength ,change your health and increase your longevity only to a small extent

In a 2021 review of 16 studies from around the globe, researchers found that just 30 to 60 minutes a
week of [muscle-strengthening], or “resistance,” exercise increased life expectancy by 10 to 17 percent.
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