The Politics of Humanism: AN INTERVIEW WITH SATYAJIT RAY

Author(s): Udayan Gupta and SATYAJIT RAY

Source: Cinéaste , 1982, Vol. 12, No. 1 (1982), pp. 24-29
Published by: Cineaste Publishers, Inc.

Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/41686766

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 The Politics
of Humanism:
AN INTERVIEW WITH SATYAJIT RAY
by Udayan Gupta

the village and spending some time there, I began to

Satyqjit Ray is the most widely acclaimed. In a
understand. Talking to people, reacting to moods, to the
Among Satyqjit cinema the where Ray many,
cinema where is lowbrow lowbrow
the filmmakers most entertainment widely in acclaimed. India and
entertainment
landscape, to the sights and sounds- all this helped. But, andtoday Inthe
the a ,
fast buck have been the driving forces , Ray was it's onenotofjust
thepeople who have been brought up in villages
first rebels. From Pather Panchali (1955) to Pikoo who can (1981),
make films about village life. An outside view is
Ray has made thirty films and , in the process , also has able
lefttoan
penetrate.
indelible mark on the Indian cinema. He has dem- Cineaste: What have been other influences on your
onstrated that films can be made outside of the commer-
work?
cial framework. He has also shown a continually Satyajit evolv-
Ray: Bibhuti Bhushan [the author of The Apu
ing style in dealing with subjects ranging Trilogy from and ruralDistant Thunder- 13. G.] influenced me very
society to children's fantasies. much. In fact, I knew about village life by reading Pather
Perhaps Ray's most outstanding achievement has Panchali. I felt a rapport with him, with the village and
been his depiction of women in a cinema overpopulated his attitude towards it, which is one of the reasons why I
with vacuous sex-objects and silent sufferers. "A wanted to make Pather Panchali in the first place. I was
woman's beauty , I think , also lies in her patience and en- moved by the book.
deeply
durance in a ivorld where men are generally more I have also been moved by Tagore's work which is not
vulnerable and in need of guidance ," comments Ray. necessarily rural. Of course, our cultural background, our
Thus , Ray's heroines- Arati in The Big City, Charulata incultural makeup, is a fusion of East and West. This ap-
Charulata, and Anaga in Distant Thunder- are charac- plies to anybody who has been educated in the city in In-
ters with virtue and morality in a world where values dia and who has been exposed to the classics of English
seem fragile and transient. literature. After all, our knowledge of the West is deeper
Ray came forth with a set of new ideas in his films than the Westerner's knowledge of our country. We have
about India's contemporary landscape- D ays and Nightsimbibed Western education. Western music, Western art,
in the Forest, The Adversary, Company Limited, and TheWestern literature have all been very influential in India.
Middleman. The underlying themes common to each film Film, as a purely technological medium of expression,
include the destruction of old values , the tyranny of thedeveloped in the West. The concept of an art form exist-
new and the impersonal, and the absence of faith in ing in time is a Western concept, not an Indian one. So, in
modern life. order to understand cinema as a medium, it helps if one is
Many critics nevertheless see Ray as a somewhat cold familiar with the West and Western art forms. A Bengali
and uninvolved filmmaker, one who has refrained from folk artist, or a primitive artist, will not be able to under-
any meaningful analysis of the troubled world around stand the cinema as an art form. Someone who has had a
him. They contend that Ray's vision of the world is that of Western education is definitely at an advantage.
a hopeless romantic , lamenting the passing of an era Cineaste: Indian critics often contend that Pather Pan-
rather than examining the dialectic of the present. Manychali was a radical film because it completely altered In-
feel that, while Ray is undoubtedly the most accom- dia's film economy. It proved that it was possible to
plished filmmaker in India, he has fallen short in the rolemake viable films without studio patronage. Did the
of the artist as critic. film really have an immediate impact?
In the last few years, Ray has concentrated on films Ray: I don't think so. Although the audience and critics
aimed at children and based on his own writing. The recognized the film as a landmark of sorts, filmmakers
films- The Golden Fortress, The Elephant God, and The weren't that quick to follow. There was no immediate in-
Kingdom of Diamonds- have been extremely popular fluence discernible in other directors' works. That came
and are some of the finest films ever made for children.much later. In the last five or six years, filmmakers com-
To many, however, these new films only confirm whating out of the Film Institute in Poona have acknowledged
they have maintained all along : that Ray is happier in athat they have been influenced t}y Pather Panchali.
world of unreality and fantasy , away from the com- Cineaste: Are you surprised that your films have been
plexities of modern India. so well received outside of India?
Ray responded to some of these criticisms while in NewRay: I never imagined that any of my films, especially
York last year in connection with a retrospective of hisPather Panchali, would be seen throughout this country
films at the Museum of Modern Art. or in other countries. The fact that they have is an indica-
tion that, if you're able to portray universal feelings,
Cineaste: How did Pather Panchali change you? Did it universal relations, emotions, and characters, you can
help you discover Bengal? cross certain barriers and reach out to others, even non-
Satyajit Ray: I certainly discovered rural life while mak- Bengalis.
ing Pather Panchali. There's no question of that. I'd been Cineaste: What is the most unsatisfying film you've
ever made?
city -born, city-bred, so I didn't know the village firsthand.
Ray: The most unsatisfying film, Chiriakhana (The Zo
While hunting locations in rural areas, and, after finding

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 Right: The Music Room
I Left: Right: Pather The Music Pancháli Room

In a challengtngcod^M
sation, India's intem^H
tlpnally acçiÉRed fj^H
rwafcer d iscdlfelis

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 «f|^H
«f|^H T director T can
here are director can. . say.
definitely say. . . certain
restrictions statements
certain statements on what andand
a
K portrayals will never get past the censors
S What can you do? You are aware of the problems
S and you deal with them, but you also know the
H limit , the constraints beyond which

■ you just cannot go. JßJ

is not being shown in my current retrospective. For one woman, but the type of woman which fascinates me. The
thing, it was not a subject of my choice. I was forced by woman I like to put in my films is better able to cope with
circumstance to do it. Some of my assistants were sup- situations than men.
posed to do the film, but they suddenly lost confidence Cineaste: Is Charulata the archetypal Ray woman?
and asked me to take it on. Ray: Yes, she is.
Chiriakhanď s a whodunit, and whodunits just don't Starting from The Music Room and contin-
Cineaste:
make good films. I prefer the thriller form where uing onyou
to The Chess Players, you go back and forth be-
more or less know the villain from the beginning. tween The
old culture and new culture , tradition and pro-
whodunit always has this ritual concluding scene where
gress. Sometimes I get the feeling that you are leaning
the detective goes into a rigamarole of how everything towards tradition and the old culture and are somewhat
happened, and how he found the clues which led him to
disapproving of what is new.
the criminal. It's a form that doesn't interest Ray: me very
I don't disapprove of what is new in The Chess
much. Players. There is a very clear attitude expressed in the
Cineaste: What's been your most satisfying film? fact that the feudais are not inveflved in what is hap-
Ray: Well, the one film that I would make the same pening way, around them. Although I am sympathetic to the
if I had to do it again, is Charulata. There are other films,
characters, there's also a clear suggestion that these peo-
such as Days and Nights in the Forest which I also ad- ple are no good. Their time is up. Their time is also up in a
mire. Among the children's films, I like Joi Baba Felu- film such as The Music Room. But I am more interested
nath ( The Elephant God). It works very well. It's got wit. in a way of life that is passing and the representatives of
It's got film eye. It's got a face, a very satisfying face, and that way of life. You can find the same thing in Chekhov's
some wonderful acting. I also enjoy making the musical The Cherry Orchard and it fascinates me.
films because they give me a chance to compose music. Of course, you risk flogging a dead horse in saying that
And they're commercially successful, which gives you a feudalism is stupid and wrong. But you also feel for the
certain kind of satisfaction. I like Kanchenjungha , too. characters in those films. They're pathetic, like dinosaurs
That's probably because it was my first original screen- who don't realize why they're being wiped out. There's a
play and a very personal film. It was a good ten to fifteenquality of pathos in that which interests me.
years ahead of its time. Cineaste: Most Western critics feel that your vision of
Cinéaste: It has a fragmented narrative. India is a bleak and despairing one.
Ray: Yes. Our audience likes a central character, or a cou- Ray: The Middleman is really the only film of which that
ple of central characters with whom they can identify, sort of remark can be made.
and a story with a straight narrative line. Kanchen- Cineaste: But others have found Days and Nights in the
jungha told the story of several groups of characters andForest despairing.
it went back and forth. You know, between group one, Ray: I wouldn't call it such a despairing vision. Certain
group two, group three, group four, then back to groupunpleasant truths are expressed in it but that is part of
one, group two, and so on. It's a very musical form, but itdrama, it applies to all kinds of films. You can analyze a
wasn't liked. The reaction was stupid. Even the reviews Western film and find a very despairing statement about
were not interesting. But, looking back now, I find that itWestern values. You can't make happy films all the time.
is a very interesting film. If you're making a film about problems, but you don't
Cineaste: The women in your films tend to be much have a solution, there's bound to be a despairing quality.
stronger , more determined , more adaptable and resil- In The Big City , both husband and wife lose their jobs.
ient than the men in your films. Is that a reflection ofThere are no jobs around. They drift apart, there is mis-
Bengali social history? understanding, and they come together again. But they
Ray: That is often a reflection of what the author has writ- still don't have any jobs, and they may not have any for
ten, a confirmation of the author's point of view ex- quite some time, but that doesn't make it despairing.
pressed in the books on which the films are based. There The only bleak film I have made is The Middleman.
have been many strong women characters in Tagore andThere's no question about that. I felt corruption, rampant
in Bankimchandra. 1 But it also reflects my own attitudescorruption, all around. Everyone talks about it in Cal-
and personal experience of women. cutta. Everyone knows, for instance, that the cement
Cineaste: Which is? allotted to the roads and underground railroad is going to
Ray: Although they're physically not as strong as men, who are building their own homes with it.
the contractors
nature gave women qualities which compensate The for
Middleman
that is a film about that kind of corruption
fact. They're more honest, more direct, and, by andand
I don't think there is any solution.
large,
they're stronger characters. I'm not talking about every
Cineaste: You've often said that you don't think it's
right , important or necessary for an artist to provide
bankimchandra: A nineteenth century Bengali novelist answersre-or make judgements , to say that this is right
nowned for his social novels; could be called the Bengali and this is wrong. You've stayed away from major po-
Dickens. litical statements.

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 The archetypal Ray woman: Madhabi Mukheijee (right) and Soumitra Chatteijee
in a scene from Ray's 1964 film, Charulata.
Ray: I have made political statements more clearly than attacking people who don't care. The establishment will
anyone else, including Mrinal Sen. In The Middleman I in- remain totally untouched by what you're saying. So what
cluded a long conversation in which a Naxalite2 discusses is the point? Films cannot change society. They never
the tasks ahead. He talks nonsense, he tells lies, but his have. Show me a film that changed society or brought
very presence is significant. If any other director had about madeany change.
that film, that scene would not have been allowed. But Cineaste: What about filmmakers such as Leni Riefen -
there are definitely restrictions on what a director can stahl
say.who presented the Nazi version of the Aryan
You know that certain statements and portrayals will myth , or Sergei Eisenstein , who used film as a tool of the
never get past the censors. So why make them? revolution?
Cinéaste: Given the political climate in India , is the Ray: Eisenstein aided a revolution that was already tak-
filmmaker's role one of passive observer or activist? ing place. In the midst of a revolution, a filmmaker has a
Ray: Have you seen Hirak Rajar Deshe ( The Kingdom of positive role, he can do something for the revolution. But,
Diamonds )? There is a scene of the great clean-up where if there is no revolution, you can do nothing.
all the poor people are driven away. That is a direct reflec- Riefenstahl was helping a myth, the Nazi ideology, and
tion of what happened in Delhi and other cities during In-the Nazis were very strong at the time. In the early days of
dira Gandhi's Emergency. In a fantasy like The Kingdom fascism, even the intellectuals were confused. Tagore was
of Diamonds , you can be forthright, but, if you're dealing led to believe that Mussolini was doing some wonderful
with contemporary characters, you can be articulate onlythings, playing a very positive role, until Romain Rolland
up to a point because of censorship. You simply cannot told him he was wrong, that he hadn't understood the full
attack the party in power. It was tried in The Story of aimplications of fascism.
Chair and the entire film was destroyed. What can you Cineaste: How do you see your own social role as a film-
do? You are aware of the problems and you deal with maker?
them, but you also know the limit, the constraints beyond Ray: You can see my attitude in The Adversary where
which you just cannot go. you have two brothers. The younger brother is a Naxalite
Cineaste: Some people see that as an abdication of the There is no doubt that the elder brother admires the
filmmaker's social role. A number of critics , especially younger brother for his bravery and convictions. The film
those in Bengal feel that you aren't political enough , is not ambiguous about that. As a filmmaker, however,
that you can go further, but that you just haven't testedwas more interested in the elder brother because he is the
your limits . vacillating character. As a psychological entity, as a
Ray: No, I don't think I can go any further. It is very easy human being with doubts, he is a more interesting char-
to attack certain targets like the establishment. You are acter to me. The younger brother has already identified
himself with a cause. That makes him part of a total atti-
2Naxalites: A radical left movement that started in rural Bengal tude and makes him unimportant. The Naxalite move-
in 1967 and which has had a lasting impact on the Indian left. ment takes over. He, as a person, becomes insignificant.

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 «PM MM «PM MM testablishment.
establishment. You
is very easy to You attack are attacking
are attacking certain targetspeople
people likewho
who the
K don't care. The establishment will remain totally
B untouched by what you're saying. So what is the
B point? Films cannot change society.

mt They never have. n

Cinéaste: But can you make such a distinction between Ray: P
ideological gestures and emotional gestures? Isn't the which cannot be reduced to concrete terms. One state-
ideologue also an intellectual being? How can you ment the film tries to make is that, if a woman is to be un-
create such a dichotomy? faithful, if she is to have an extramarital affair, she can't
Ray: Why not? I don't see why not. Anybody who iden- afford to have soft emotions towards her children, or, in
tifies himself with a movement is depending on directives this case, her son. The two just don't go together. You
from higher figures who are dictating, controlling their have to be ruthless. Maybe she's not ruthlesß to that ex-
movement. If you took the controlling characters, that tent. She's being very Bengali. A European in the same
would be interesting. Then you could make a film about circumstances would not behave in the same way.
the Naxalite movement, an Eisensteinian film about revo- Cineaste: How did Charulata resolve the problem of
lutionary activity. But you cannot do that under the pres-infidelity? She , we are led to believe , went back . Was
ent circumstances in India. she being unfaithful or just caught between . . .
Cinéaste: I am not the only one who feels thatRay: youSheem-was unfaithful but she was also confused
phasize emotion . Robin Wood has written that you are
because the husband was good. He wasn't a rake.
more interested in communicating emotional experi- Charulata probably felt sympathetic and was attempting
ences than in expressing ideas . to patch up the situation. The husband realized too late
Ray: That's just not correct. One thing that that should be
he himself was responsible for what had happened.
clearly discernible in my films is a strong moral Thatattitude.
is why at the end of the film there is the suggestion
Cineaste: Is that a product of your religious upbringing that they will, come together, but that it is too soon for a
of being Brahmo?3 reconciliation.
Ray: I don't think so. I don't even know what being
Cineaste: How much of your own sentiments are in
Brahmo means. I stopped going to Brahmo Semaj youraround
characters? Reviewing Distant Thunder, Pauline
the age of 14 or 15. I don't believe in organized Kaelreligion
wrote , "Ray has put something of himself into
anyway. Religion can only be on a personal level. I just , something of his own guilt of weakness ,
Gangacharan
find that the moral attitude I demonstrate is more inter- of commitment " Is that accurate?
esting than any political attitude I could bring to my Ray: Critics forget that I'm basing the film on someone
films. else's work that already exists in another form. In Distant
Cineaste: Is the moral attitude sometimes too simple? Thunder , Gangacharan is very close to Bibhuti Bhushan's
In Pikoo you seem to be suggesting that infidelity can concept. The real question should be whether the author
lead to a variety of problems , that changing social himself
and had this feeling of guilt and weakness. I'm not the
sexual values have hurt the social and family fabric originator
. of the story. Why drag me into it?
It's true, the fact that I have chosen to portray a charac-
3Brahmoism: A liberal, modern reformist faith which goester in a certain way does Imply a sense of identity and
back
understanding. I understand Gangacharan, his motiva-
to the monotheistic origins of Hinduism; strongly anti-idolatry
and anti-casteism, however. tions, his behavior, his reactions. For me, he is a be-
lievable, fully-rounded character, and his transformation
at the end is very moving, but he is not my reflection.
Cineaste: Are you suggesting that people who don't
read the books from which your films are made may
have a difficult time understanding your films?
Ray: Yes, in the sense that they tend to ignore the origi-
nal author completely. They're thinking of the narrative
as a total creation, from beginning to end, by the film-
maker, and that is usually not true. I choose a story or a
novel for certain elements in it which appeal to me. In the
process of writing the screenplay, the theme may be
modified, but most of the original elements will be re-
tained. Often the screenplay evolves as a criticism of the
original. After reading a story many times, you may feel
that a certain character would not behave the way the
author has described, so some changes are made. Once I
have read a story and gotten to know it, I will leave the
story behind and start from scratch. At the end, if I find
that certain changes are convincing, I'll keep them and
forget the original.
Cineaste: Some critics feel that you romanticize pover-
ty , that the poverty and misery in your films never be-

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 Days and Nights in the Forest ( 1970)
comes ugly. possible within a superficially simple narrative structure.
Ray: I think that Father Panchali is fairly ruthless in its I don't think of the Western audience when I make my
depiction of poverty. The behavior of characters, the wayfilms. I am thinking of my own audience in Bengal. I am
that the mother behaves towards the old woman, is ab- trying to take them along with me, and this I have suc-
solutely cruel. I don't think anyone has shown such ceeded cruel- in doing. At the beginning, this audience was ex-
ty to old people within a family. Distant Thunder takes tremely unsophisticated. They were used to trash or the
place in a very pretty setting and this is a point that KaelBengali film. You had to take them along slowly.
naive
makes, that Babita is a baby doll or something. She Sometimes you took a leap as in Kanchenjungha or Days
doesn't know that some Brahmin wives in the villages and Nights in the Forest , and lost touch with them.
were very beautiful. These kinds of risks, especially in relation to their au-
Cineaste: Isn't the point in Distant Thunder that a diences, haven't been taken by Bergman or Fellini.
famine occurred without a scorched earth and starving Bergman is fairly simple, although he can be very austere
faces? and rigorous, and he is often aided by some marvelous
Ray: Yes, that's what happened during that famine. It photography. As for Fellini, he seems to be making the
was only after everyone started coming into the cities that
same film over and over again. There is a lot of bravura in
it became clear that people could die of hunger even whenhis films, in spite of the fact that he's not so interested in
there had been a good harvest. That was the point of that
the stories, and people go to see that bravura.
particular famine. As for my use of color, it came straightI can't do all that Bergman and Fellini do. I don't have
from the author's description- that nature was very lush,
their audience and I don't work in that kind of context. I
that everything was physically beautiful, and, yet, people
have to contend with an audience that is used to dross. I
were dying of hunger. have worked with an Indian audience for thirty years
Cineaste: You, Fellini , Kurosawa, and Bergman all and, in that time, the generad look of cinema hasn't
started making films around the same time . Many changed. Certainly not in Bengal. You'll find directors
critics feel , however , that you have lagged behind , that
there so backward, so stupid, and so trashy that you'll
you haven't taken the esthetic and narrative risks thatfind it difficult to believe that their works exist alongside
Fellini or Bergman have taken. As you come to the endmy films. I am forced by circumstances to keep my
of nearly thirty years of filmmaking , how do you see stories on an innocuous level. What I can do, however, is
your own career in comparison with others? to pack my films with meaning and psychological inflec-
Ray: I think I achieved maturity at a pretty early stage.tions
It and shades, and make a whole which will commu-
has been my preoccupation to achieve as much density nicate
as a lot of things to many people. ■

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