AV.

You have recently been in Spain, participating in the II Congress of Higher

Interview David Hargreaves
Adjunct professor with an appointment as scholar-in-residence at the Thorn-
ton School of Music at The University of Southern California in Los Angeles.
by Ana M. Vernia. March, 2015.
conservatories of music. In your opinion, is there any relationship between chil-
dren's musical education and higher musical education?
DH. Yes I think there is – there is no doubt that if the foundations of musical edu-
cation are properly laid in childhood, this can lead to a long and productive musical
life. I think it is important that children enjoy music and have the chance to express
their own personalities and emotions, and take control for themselves. This contrasts

D
avid Hargreaves is Professor of Education and
Froebel Research Fellow, and has previously held
posts in the Schools of Psychology and Education
at the Universities of Leicester, Durham and the Open
University. He is also Visiting Professor of Research in
Music Education at the University of Gothenburg, Swe-
den, Visiting Professor at the Inter-University Institute of
Macau, and Adjunct Professor at Curtin University, Perth,
Australia. He is a Chartered Psychologist and Fellow of
the British Psychological Society. He was Editor of Psy-
chology of Music 1989-96, Chair of the Research Commission of the International So-
ciety for Music Education (ISME) 1994-6, and is currently on the editorial boards of 10
journals in psychology, music and education. In recent years he has spoken about his
research at conferences and meetings in various countries on all 5 continents. He has
been invited by SEM-EE to participate in the II Congress of conservatories of music.
Ana M. Vernia
One of your publications is ‘The power of music’, in The Psychologist. What is
really the power of music?
David Hargreaves
As psychological research in music propriately, and education is just one of
advances more and more, and as it in- the many areas in which music psycholo-
creasingly overlaps with other disciplines gy is being applied in everyday life. Other
such as neuroscience, cognitive psychol- areas of application include health and
ogy, sociology, and human development, well-being, broadcasting and the media,
with the more traditional forms of music education, such as I was subjected to my-
self, in which the focus was on reading and writing music and learning scales, key
signatures and so on in an academic manner which was outside the context of actual
music-making.
AV. Today creativity is a necessary element for life. Do you believe that crea-
tivity can be taught with the current teachers, or do teachers need to be recy-
cled in creativity?
DH. The answer to this depends to a considerable extent on national programmes
in teacher education. In the UK, especially in music education, there is a tradition dat-
ing back to the 1960s of encouraging creativity in composition and improvisation,
going back to key figures like John Paynter, and the same is true of some but not all
other Western countries. In other parts of the world, however, the traditional meth-
ods of music teacher training are a great deal more formal, and the emphasis is on
coaching to a high level in traditional classical musical skills. There is no problem with
developing these skills to a high level of course, but I think that music education at its
earlier levels should not focus on these skills at the expense of promoting creativity.
The answer to this question really depends on the extent to which teachers have al-
ready been educated in methods which emphasise creativity.
AV. From your experience, how do you perceive music education and its im-
pact on society?
DH. Once again, there are wide international variations in the answer to this ques-

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we gain more and more evidence of the
many powerful effects that music can
have upon us. There is clear evidence, for
example, that music can promote chil-
dren’s cognitive, social, emotional, and
even physical development if used ap-
social inclusion, the work environment,
leisure and commerce, and of course in
music and the arts themselves. My view is
that music psychology is one of the most
rapidly expanding areas of psychology at
the moment, the equivalent of psycholin-
guistics in the 1960s.
tion. In the UK, which I know best of course, there has been a long tradition of music
and the arts being underfunded by the government, although more recently there
have been some changes in this. One view is that music is a kind of luxury, or optional
extra, such that it should be funded from outside sources. In other parts of the world
however, such as in Eastern countries like Korea or Japan, music is seen to have a mor-
al dimension: it is perceived as a means by which young children can learn the pos-

86 ENTREVISTA 2 Sumario 87
 itive moral characteristics and values of
the society. I think it is important to bear
in mind what I said earlier, that that music
can promote children’s cognitive, social,
emotional, and even physical develop-
ment when we evaluate the potential of
music education.
AV. You have experience in the music
educational environment of children
and adults. Do you believe that adults
need a specific musical education be-
cause their profile, motivations and in-
terests are different?
DH. I think that this is likely to differ for
adults and indeed for children who are at
different levels and have different abili-
ties and interests in music. Professional
musicians, for example, will have been
to conservatories, and will have had to
devote many hours, weeks, months and
years to musical instrumental practice.
This will of course be very different from
the experience of adults who enjoy music
at an amateur level, but who nevertheless
may be skilled musicians. In the same way
the needs of children who are working
at very high levels on their instruments,
and maybe intend to embark on musical
careers, will be different from those who
are mainly involved for the sake of en-
joyment. In other words, I think that the
AV. You have quite a few publica-
tions in the field of music education. In
your opinion, have there been changes
in the landscape of high quality music
education?
DH. Yes I do, but once again this var-
ies from country to country. In the UK
we have always had specialist musicians
who work at high levels and to go on to
become professionals, but there is an in-
creasing focus now on non-specialists be-
ing prepared for a life in music at a some-
what lower level, and I am all in favour of
this kind of change. To use a comparison,
one might say that I can enjoy physical ex-
ercise by going for a run at my own (slow)
pace without having to train to become
an Olympic champion!
AV. From your experience, when mu-
sic education should start?
DH. As early as possible, as long as ‘mu-
sic education’ does not necessarily imply
formal skill learning: there are many mu-
sical activities in which children can par-
ticipate, by themselves or with others,
which primarily are fun to do – and the
learning and specialisation can follow on
from that.
AV. You were an important member
of ISME. In your opinion, do you think
that the actions that are taken by dif-
ferent organizations influence govern-
ment decisions?
DH. I think that this is a political ques-
tion as much as an educational one, and
that it applies well beyond music edu-
cation. In the UK recently, education has
been referred to as a ‘political football’:
changes demanded by the politicians
come so thick and fast that teachers and
schools cannot keep up with them. It is
often the case that these are motivated
by political ends rather than education-
al ones, such as in recommending pro-
grammes of testing and assessment to
apparently drive up standards. To answer
your question, I think that it is possible for
different organisations to influence gov-
ernment decisions if the politicians them-
selves are on board, but so often research
evidence and expert opinion is unfortu-
nately ignored.
AV. If you could make changes aimed
at improving education, what would
they be?
DH. There are so many answers that I give to current students?
could give to this question! - but I restrict
myself to just one, which summarises
many different issues – and that is that
I would put the child at the heart of ed-
ucation. Let me use just two examples
of this – first, the digital competence of
young children often goes well beyond
their older relatives. My three-year-old
grandson has computer skills which I am
only learning myself, and I'm sure his abil-
ities will soon outstrip mine. My second
example is the use of dialogic teaching
and learning, which puts children's talk
at the heart of education. Studies of talk
in the traditional classroom have shown
that the teacher tends to dominate: but
if the conditions are changed so that chil-
dren are given more chance to express
their own views, and to direct the flow of
dialogue, their learning can improve dra-
matically. This can then feed into creativ-
ity, self-expression and a love of reading
and learning which becomes self-evident
to the child rather than being something
imposed from outside. Friedrich Froebel
and others argued for this approach well
over a century ago, but it is still not true of
the formal educational systems of many
countries today.
AV. Finally, what advice would you
DH. Be yourselves, and follow your own

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difference between different levels and interests, rather than those which others
aims of musical engagement is probably would like you to develop, or those of
more important than that between chil- which you think others will approve.
dren and adults.
AV. Thank you so much.|

88 ENTREVISTA 2 Sumario 89