foreign

it’s probably looking at things a little

bit the wrong way to say induce Miracles

but it’s something that can lead to be

understood

in that in that respect

if there are miracles of this kind

they’re not violations of nature

um they are

extreme

improbabilities like the word in the

Bible is astonishment they are

astonishing astonishing improbabilities

that overwhelm any notion that this

could be a matter

simply of chance within within an

ordinary conception of a mechanical

uh universe and so one is finding one

the tools one needs for this are

obviously tools that can

capture and I would say you know

rigorously quantify coincidences I want

to do a brief introduction here though

which characterizes what I see is so

significant about who we are speaking

with today and it’s very important for

the rest of the talk there’s information

here that’s needed to understand it and

I’ll start with a quote by Dr John D the

Elizabethan Sage I have from my youth up

decide and prayed on to God for pure and

sound wisdom and understanding of truths

natural and artificial for many years

and in many places far and near I have

sought and studied many books in Sundry

languages and I’ve conferred with

sundrymen and have labored with my own

reasonable discourse to find some

inkling gleam or beam of those radical

truths I sought but after all my

Endeavors I could find no other way to

attain such wisdom but by the

extraordinary gift and not by any vulgar

School Doctrine or human intervention

John D now philosophy the academic

discipline was and is in a state of

decay and entropy it is by definition

not an acting its speculative role to be

a cultist poll of Maximum abstraction

it’s intrinsically experimental

intelligence expressing The Liberation

of cognitive abilities from immediate

practical application and their testing

against ultimate problems in Nick land’s

words rather it is a rot resting in the

self-referential critique within the

logos and the known far away from what

is closest and completely unseen the

outside as Nick land calls it the

unknown the Enigma of the Edge of Time

the ground of reality that the earliest

philosophers Pagan Mystics were

unceasingly enthralled by after

Nietzsche the inventive phenomological

school and method of assault emerges

this method attempts to turn away from

Millennia or propositional philosophy

directly to the phenom on a given

perspectively to us to seek the outside

using tools of destructuring

deconstruction among others to try

escape the modern mind frame in an

effort to reach the outside unknown

hi dagger Hassel student turns these

tools on philosophy itself and ontology

in an attempt to reach the primordial

Matrix

or primordial being and actually achieve

perspectival access not just as an idea

or a concept in an approach which would

be characterized as a kind of inside out

house cleaning to again reach the

ultimate ground of reality this method

has later warped and corrupted by the

using Franco Academy which spreads like

a virus to the Anglo Academy until we

reach the State of Decay an environment

that Nick land finds himself with at War

at University in the 90s as a young

Professor like the Greeks before him

such as schopenhauer and Nietzsche he

turns away from the stagnation towards

truth and the primordial enigmas and the

primordial questions in a quest for

speculative experimentation and maximum

abstraction that is the way of the

actual philosopher as a method not a

profession he rejects the Franco

Academy’s critical methods he rejects

the tools of the phenomological school

and forges his own original way which

you could characterize as if our goal is

the outside our methods and practices

must also be of this outside

to have the radical contact with the

unknown that the phenomenal knowledges

were after from The Human Side with

their inside out method this to me is

incredible it’s not merely the next

philosopher in the chain who writes

another book and advances another

critique or deconstruction this is a

radical turn another unofficial school

and a kind of Greenwood Outlaw chaotic

Rift in the stagnant Academy as a

professor at Warwick in the 90s he forms

the ccru the cybernetics cultural

research a liminal space and I would

call a Greenwood which synchronously is

down the road from Robin Hood’s Outlaw

Greenwood in barnsdale and the ballads

in England Warwick is the University his

rigorous use of methodology from

non-philosophical disciplines and even

non-human so to speak machine cybernetic

schizo analysis cryptography numerology

esotericism performance art anthropology

grammatology and Kabbalah and a

numerical anti-language image his

speculations and rigorous application of

machine cybernetics of capital and

Technology directly to culture and being

to communal ritual and performance led

to an autodidactic cultural output from

outside his Innovations of thought show

their influence decades later appearing

in cognitive signs under different names

such as we space communal we space

distributed cognition extended cognition

predictions Nick made 30 years ago are

still coming true today one after the

other like being ticked off a checklist

and so Nick may not agree with this

characterization but it’s obvious to me

that here is not only a great Englishman

but a great philosopher of the likes of

Niche and schopenhauer it’s figures like

this who deserve ultimate respect

because not only are they radically

Innovative but they put everything on

the line in Pursuit Of Truth or reward

position and titles it’s the truth and

the mission by any means necessary it’s

the attitude or that attitude itself

that makes people like this

an invasion from the outside the unknown

the primordial itself not merely man

probing to see it but they are its

Inception it’s Inception that doesn’t

really do it full Justice

but to get a full picture there’s two

links in the description to the

introduction from fanged numina and also

an article which talks about the cciu

and also you can get the ccru book which

gives you a examples of the cultural

output that it made which are very

strange indeed and related to the

hypestition con concept that we go into

a fascinating talk with Nick it’s a

great pleasure and a great uh honor to

even have him speaking on the channel so

without further Ado here’s the

conversation hope you enjoy it you don’t

necessarily have to comment on what I’ve

just said there but um perhaps on the

John D quote to begin with that’s my

view anyway there’s obviously a lot a

lot there I mean I I hope this isn’t

going after such a extraordinary

introduction

uh disappoint everyone to too hugely but

for sure I appreciated that John D quote

a lot he is a one of my favorite people

I could just start with a very little

piece of potted history just to say that

the ccie was basically active in the 19

90s from my point of view at least it

had a kind of climactic moment in a kind

of event collaboration with our art

group called orphan drift and it was

heading towards

the Millennium so that was a definite

theme I mean at that time there was a

big concern about the Y2K bug you know

and that computers were going to crash

so there was a kind of techno

apocalyptic undercurrent to to people’s

expectations might be helpful just to

say what hyperstation is

um uh but yeah of course these are

difficult subjects but I think that’s

okay way the ccie was thinking in the

1990s our diagnosis of the way

cybernetics have been used was not only

that its application tended perhaps to

be

rather narrow to a specific

gadgets and instruments and Technical

Systems narrowly conceived

but also there was a massive prevalence

given to the notion of negative rather

than positive feedback so it was much

more interested in control in the sense

of maintaining things at a certain range

you know that when it drifts off a a

goal or a target range it’s brought back

that’s what the mechanism does it brings

it back to a to a

predefined goal State and narrows its

range of behavior it seemed to us that

if you’re applying it to

most especially capitalism modernity as

a social historical phenomenon it’s it’s

positive feedback that is

The crucial

phenomenon no of course there are all

kinds of negative feedbacks there are

all kinds of these control systems and

yeah any equilibrium but the main the

fundamental phenomenon is explosion it’s

it’s that some input marxes obviously

formula for capital is

um

money goes to commodity goes to M2 in a

cycle and that that cycle is

inflationary it’s explosive

um and so capitalism is essentially

something based on a positive feedback

Dynamic and hyperstition

really then emerges for us or emerge for

us as a

as the most simple way of applying this

to cultural phenomena yeah in gen as to

say it’s about how things

uh access a positive feedback dynamic in

order to explode

and therefore come

roughly from nothing from the test more

yeah to to become huge and and it looks

like something basically just

bursting into existence yeah um yeah

something coming out of virtuality and

making itself making itself real

yeah

so whether explicitly or you’re implicit

yes that was a very important guiding

concept

um yeah

I think this speaks to well what I what

comes to me when I when you say that is

that firstly

and you have alluded to this with some

of your tweets and whatnot which is

if you are

say in the cybernetics Research Unit

firstly where does it come from

uh

in the sense that okay if you’re

generating effects that are well let me

just put it this way is that it’s not

simply that it’s a social phenomena it’s

not simply that’s that it’s social

effects that are generated like

superstition
it’s the fact that in this ground of

uncertainty and there are priors for

establishing a uh hypestational

environment that you have set out and

you did for that Research Unit uh a

ground of uncertainty a ground of

unbelief I’ve got them here but I won’t

go into but I think this a good way of

explaining it is that it seems to

generate effects in reality

this hyperstition it’s not only a social

phenomena is that it and perhaps

forwards and backwards uh in time so to

speak but

it generates synchronous effects so if

you look to Carl Jung and Wolfgang

Paulie’s uh theory about synchronicity

uh an a causal connecting principle it’s

generally generates would you say that

it also generates a causal effects it’s

not only that things come to be that

it’s uh a causally at least not directly

causal as we understand billiard balls

hitting billiard balls it has effect

inside of it absolutely for sure true I

mean it’s a causal is a complicated word

and it’s probably not always used in the

same sense
um it’s used very interestingly by by

different groups I think and and the the

uh the usage it has mostly in I think

what we call the rationalist community

where it was connected with various

types of developments of

um Game Theory as a way to understand

how you can

actually interact with something

without any

causal contact therefore you know

anywhere in space or time

um you can you it’s extremely sorceress

notion like that

um so I I think it’s a definitely a good

word it’s partly a placeholder perhaps I

mean you know we we just say a causal

because we’re all it is doing is marking

a disengagement from from a certain

notion of causality but obviously that

notion of causality is so prevalent and

so that to

separate from it

provisionally even is is is not a small

step and it opens up listers that are

not deeply explored what were because

it’s been a long time since the cciu

what were the most effective means

of which of of being able to

being able to receive information from

that outside has it changed since what

you originally would say uh when you

were doing probably in about 2004 I’ve

read on the hyperstation blog

um have there have there been new uh

practices that you’ve engaged with that

have revealed information from outside

and not just only

information which numerology probably

reveals but

um perhaps perspectively you know before

sort of advancing to the Crux of your

question which is this thing about

method for

um

accessing the outside which I think is

definitely Central I think shouldn’t be

Central to this whole discussion

um I just would like to say that

a crucial experience for me

in relation to the cciu is how much

uh

there is a sense of the retrospective

about it that’s to say what one finds

out one was doing

is very belated

so

um for instance just in terms of

um

sort of kabbalistic numerology

uh it was

during the kind of central cciu period

that

from somewhere I mean I’ve been asked

how this came and honestly I can’t give

any detail but somewhere we formulated

the what we call uh

the alphanumeric cabala it’s a very

simple English gametria or or

numerization and used it a little bit I

mean it was confirmed for us in its

value by the fact that the um

Uh current 93 Mantra do what thou Wilt

shall be the whole of the law yeah

777 which is the name obviously of

Crowley’s major capitalistic yeah it

seems to us that was extremely strong

confirmation but only very recently

have I learned that

the cybernetic culture Research Unit

by alphanumeric cabala

comes to 666.
um

you’re kidding wow

Beaconsfield because it’s the triangle

of 36 and 36 is has a very important

place on this diagram that was very very

important to our work that we called the

pneumogram

yeah

um yeah

so so because there’s a gate 36 and the

triangle of 36 is 666. we had 666 marked

quite prominently in chalk on the on the

wall of this Beaconsfield art space but

the fact that the Cyber technical

culture Research Unit itself is being

you know

um

endorsed by the number six six it was

something very very recent as a

discovery and so

it’s really crucial

in the way that I look about this whole

history that

we really didn’t know what we were doing

you know like a lot it’s like

things were being done things were being

said words were being constructed and

things were being ridden and what they

mean is not something that can be

derived from any kind of lucid motives

or intentions

that can be dated back to the to the

point where those things yeah emerged

and so really then the uh the task that

is kind of suggested by that is you know

whatever was actually going on such that

things were being retrieved in a way

that was just not understood but clearly

was happening is something that one

wants to

methodically

pursue and sort of uh it’s not that

being

it’s not at all that being conscious of

what one is doing is the crucial thing

we’re proving that is but at the same

time

seeing retrospectively what was

happening does give some suggestions

concerning method that can be currently

apply if that makes any sense no it does

to me

um what does it what does that suggest

uh of method that would Aid in

that is the question that maybe sorry

sorry no no it’s strange to many people

because it’s a very difficult phenomena

to investigate like our exchange on

Twitter it’s a hard thing to say here’s

the empirical data of exactly where it

unfolds quantitatively but perhaps you

can expand on some of the empirical uh

uh observations uh that you have made

since then uh of seeing these effects

play out and then go to that question is

what what developments did that talk uh

speak to well obviously I think like you

say it’s not very easy

to run this kind of stuff through speech

writing is a much better medium for this

kind of thing and it’s it’s partly

because that methodical question is

about exactness things can be framed in

different ways one of the one of the

ways to frame this is really about

miracles

you know what what is a miracle previous

notion of the miraculous or the dominant

assumed notion of what a miracle was

that I think is still the most common

actually was something that just was uh

in contravention of the laws of nature

was some yeah Interruption of of natural

law in order to communicate some uh

revelatory divine

message in the 17th century there is the

most extraordinary

intense mixture of the new science and

very very again intense Christian

religious religious commitment but

throughout the 17th century it was

possible for there to be someone like

Newton

who was a a kind of fanatical Protestant

Christian and also obviously the father

of modern mechanistic

science as we understand

and and those two things

far from compromising each other were

held together in this you know both at a

state of absolute maximum

um intensity at that point the

understanding of what a miracle was

underwent this huge change because it

was no longer seen as

an interruption or violation of natural

law

yeah it was it was it was seen instead

as something that was communicated

through the channel

of natural law

so for instance

uh you know looking at the Bible

um the flood uh the Noah’s flood which

previously it was that God broke into

the laws of nature in order to produce

this Deluge uh you know to uh undertake

a kind of

process of spiritual purification all

these Protestants for Newton things were

so set up uh cosmically by the Divine

omniscience and uh omnipotence that

um

a comet

hit or hits the Earth and floods the

Earth at exactly the point is needed by

this

Divine Purpose you know the I.E that

what we’re talking about now

is coincidence

yes so a miracle doesn’t any longer

require

a violation of natural law all the all

the arguments against Miracles that say

no no you know there are never

interruptions in nature there’s just a

failure to understand none of that

becomes an argument against Miracles

anymore in this particular

I think it’s very English 17th century

conception it’s completely immune from

that kind of argument I think that one

framing is what one is trying to do is

explore Miracles May it’s it’s probably

looking at things a little bit the wrong

way to say induce Miracles but it’s

something that could at least be

understood

in that in that respect if there are

miracles of this kind they’re not

violations of nature

um they are

extreme

[Music]

improbabilities like the word in the

Bible is astonishment they are

astonishing astonishing in probabilities

that overwhelm any notion that this

could be a matter

simply of chance within within an

ordinary conception of a mechanical

uh universe and so one is finding one

the tools one needs for this are

obviously tools that can

capture and I would say you know

rigorously quantify coincidences

yeah now this is something that is not

easy

to to do in speech Yes

uh it’s I mean it’s far better for me to

say it’s impossible I mean you know

literally Anything could happen as I say

I think you know because

because the outside is the is the real

agent here

who knows what is happening and this

conversation we’re having right now

might turn out

to have

peculiar content that neither of us at

this point are recognizing you you know

that wouldn’t frankly

be a matter of enormous surprise to me

really if that if that was something we

were later to discover

yeah but in in the most straightforward

sense I don’t really think that I can

helpfully articulate what I would call

an eloquent uh what I would call

eloquent miracles on in a verbal Channel

I think I think you may have to be

really
you know

down in a in a set of uh words and

numbers I mean maybe I can help here in

the sense that at least walking people

in to some empirical results that are

are well at least I would say are

certainly connected with this type of

phenomena where you have quantum

mechanics at the ground of quantum

mechanics you’ve got the double slit

experiment

where the Observer is at the very ground

of uh you know particle movement is

having an effect in the experiment

Wolfgang paulia Nobel prize-winning

physicist demonstrates this in Jung’s

essay talks about it is that the choice

of experiment The Observer is having

some form of effect on on whether a

particle is a wave or or appears as a

particle that’s just a very simple

example I’m not going to speculate on

the ramifications of that there’s a

million different interpretations of

what it is but there’s that and there’s

also the placebo effect and these are

two things that are recognized that

people can uh look to I think they’re

obviously connected with this in my view

of course but um I just that’s just

might be a way of people getting into

what we’re talking about

um

yeah what do you think of that I don’t

know if you know about that there must

be some connection between the the

synchronicity theory that Jung described

and the effects of quantum mechanics

that are enigmas

I’m sure that uh

uh you know obviously hyperstation is

something that has completely sort of

gone off on its own and is living in the

wild now and I think lots of people

foreign

are interested in in using it

um very much in the sense that your

in the way you’re describing are you

come across it in many places

unexpectedly and and so for sure people

I think if they if they hunted if they

hunted around the web using that word as

a key uh they would find all kinds of

things and then following connections

who knows what it would lead into I mean

I I I obviously have only you know

a tip of the iceberg sort of sense of

what is out there like that

so yeah that’s that’s for sure right I

mean I was mainly I think I was

looking at this a little bit more

narrowly than than in terms of yeah

in terms of the question of

evidence

for communication from the outside it

might be with high position that that

someone could be satisfied I think

probably the cciu was largely satisfied

with an extremely

uh you know secular history

understanding of what hyperstation was

it was an extremely powerful

counter-intuitive

piece of cultural positive feedback

Dynamics

um but there was nothing about it that

necessarily was

um

miraculous I would say my interest now

definitely is more on things that are

manifestly

miraculous yeah in that I think that

when you’re talking about initiation

the the first step of initiation I think

sorry I’m going to say something that I

don’t even think I agree with

sort of I’m contradicting it in my mind

at the very moment I’m saying but I’ll

say it anyway

um the the first stage of initiation

is to realize

that

there is a

fundamental structure of Illusion in

which we are enmeshed I think our great

myths of modern people from the late

20th century to now are mostly popular

movies

um yeah and I think there’s two that are

hugely important and shaping the basic

mythological structure of people’s

thinking

and which are

the first Terminator movie

yeah and the first Matrix movie

and both of them

are

in a certain sense Gnostic movies I mean

The Matrix

particularly
um so obviously we have this language of

red pills and blue pills completely

circulating you know freely now

I think it’s a reference point for

everyone to take the red pill

is to see that everything that you’ve

had thought

was

authoritative reality

was an extremely

fine-grained structure of Illusion when

you go back uh you know to the Book of

Revelation that in their technology the

the metaphor

let’s say for that was in the Apocalypse

in them in Revelation

the universe disappears as if a scroll

is rolled up

that’s there that’s the technology they

they have

for that thought that Gnostic Gnostic

Insight that what you had thought was

reality is actually something written on

a scroll that is rolled up and then

you’re somewhere you’re somewhere else

you’ve crossed over

out of the Matrix if I was choosing I

wouldn’t be better to say into the

Matrix but whatever we’ve gone from kind

of computer simulation video games these

are all we now have accessible as kind

of

uh metaphorical engines for this Gnostic

thought

in in

the first century they had Scrolls but

it’s basically the same it’s basically

the same thought and it can no doubt

undergo

further elaboration I mean it’s so I

would say

you know it’s a mistake to get too

caught up in the metaphor saying it’s

like

of course people are right when they say

well you’re you know that’s just the

metaphor because where we are in history

and that’s the state of our technology

and you know people thought the brain

was a telephone exchange and then they

thought it was a computer and boom boom

boom and they’re using these particular

metaphors because that’s what’s

available it’s it’s the same but none of

that it seems to me is wrong or a

problem

I mean it was helpful to be able to

think of the brain as a telephone

exchange and it’s helpful to be able to

think of it as a computer switching

system and the neural network and I mean

these things are all

positive and they they allow people to

think things that were difficult to

think in before and so I think the

Matrix movie it’s got it it’s got huge

problems we could talk about it if we

wanted to go down that rabbit hole but I

think the point is everyone understands

it everyone’s seen it everyone knows how

to use the language

um and in that sense everyone has access

to this

basic Gnostic myth but of course they

they think as probably against a fiction

that is a movie that it’s not serious

and that the world isn’t ultimately like

that that it’s not it’s not really true

people think that we are

enmeshed in a fine-grained system

of illusional simulation

but I think they’re wrong

well

I think we

manifestly oh and that and so that’s the

initiative

of

eloquent Miracles is to persuade people

it’s it’s to take the Red Bull is to

persuade people that actually everything

they think is real is a

simulation

and it’s not even just a narrative

of course what we’re also talking about

here is what high dagger and various

people were doing it’s it’s also trying

and it is what we need now is a radical

breakout from the Cartesian brain from

the modernist worldview

with that in mind would you say that the

ancients

let’s say heraclitis if you go far

enough back

if they’re when they are in a experience

with being are they to a degree are they

are closer to this uh primordial being

they’re closer to this outside than we

are now right so

the let’s say your previous sort of

attacks on
uh that knowing space that we’ve created

for ourselves

that’s disconnected us from this

don’t apply so much to them right

because they are

interacting in a way they are still in

contact with because of that

indeterminacy which I guess Heidegger

would have that’s what fourfold is it’s

the indeterminacy between those things

of prime audio uh or Sacred Space really

would you yeah what do you think of that

yes I mean I think you know

among other things they had

the Mysteries

so

um I mean everyone

in the ancient world

thought that

um

oracles and prophecies

were real

I think you know I I don’t I think it

seemed to people then

my understanding that it was really

almost Beyond question that these were

real things
that

um they obviously the most famous you

know the Oracles of Delphi are obscure

and difficult and you know

all all the tragic stories involve

misunderstandings of Prophecy or battle

response inappropriate responses to

proxy attempt to avoid prophecy in a way

that is self-fulfilling

um but the fact that there was

prophetic communication

was something that people thought was of

course true

um you know I have been sort of reading

Herodotus recently and he just like

it tells the history of the world in

which of course there is of course there

is this level of oracular prophetic

mysterious intervention in into the

world and he doesn’t he tries to be

neutral and it’s not exactly skeptical

like balanced and will say oh maybe you

know maybe there was just a natural

explanation but it’s completely clear

what he believes is real

um and and it is and it is that and so

we are

now in thinking that basically

there is no

we are exceptional you know to think

that we roughly know yes

what things are made of and that’s all

there is and

uh they’re simply are no Communications

to be tapped into that exceed the terms

of that that is a that is a very that’s

a few centuries old and um

yeah so I agree I I don’t think it’s

very

robust I think that we we’ve returned

um we’re returning to something that is

in some levels very archaic

yeah yeah the inevitable consequences of

those scientific and technological

ways of thinking and obviously

artificial intelligence I think

is a very important

example of that and these rationalists

these rationalists who are you know

before it was anything more than a very

pitiful toy

we’re doing these thought experiments

with as you say you know using Game

Theory and nose and Notions of a causal

trade and they were basically engaged in

sorceress communication with the outside

and they just had a different they just

had a different language for it that was

computational

and well and the action had a different

action at a difference still occurs in

the sense of in a very simple way that

someone like Jonathan paggio has talked

about before when talking about hyper

agents is that simply when you just

because you send a signal by a light say

I give a rousing speech

and I said it sent over the internet and

it instigates a rebellion and the

enormous amounts of physical energy uh

uh you know exerted by something that is

unequal in terms of the energy that’s

given out by say me in the signal it’s

sent even though that’s not a causal

it’s still sort of action at a distance

if that makes sense

um I just mean in a simple way that

people can understand

um

yeah what we’re talking for sure

the system as a process of

radical amplification is obviously open

to this other frame of interpretation as

something

ingressing into the system

um something that just was not there

comes in arrives and the what that looks

like is phenomenal is is of this

amplification process this takeoff

expansion explosion but

but you’re seeing something arrive that

wasn’t inside before and now is

yeah

now the the

when you mentioned that seeing these

effects are heightened as because High

position is related to acceleration

um right

as we accelerate it should be the case

that the effects of this principle let’s

say of hyperstation on

reality quote unquote should grow as we

accelerate right and in a way

yeah people like Peugeot or the people

their predictions uh he’s a symbolic

thinker and many people know

um the flood is coming in that way and

one speculation I had when I was looking

deeply into your uh the principles

related to hypo station was that uh as

high position becomes more known

um it should I mean it’s really the only

law that doesn’t alter because if that’s

true then any ontology can be altered by

it right I mean is that that’s sort of

the ground of what speculative realism

is yes I mean but well

my hesitation here is only that

speculative realism

is is is a philosophical movement that I

suspect would be uh a bit resistant to

us oh yes of course the world you’re

saying so I mean you know if so if that

word is used as a as a technical term

like that we’re involved in a kind of

philosophy World set of tribal conflicts

that it might be yeah

no well let’s just say ways of

speculations I’m speculating

um and I’m prodding uh Nick here you

know I don’t want you to say I have to

say anything that uh can be you know

excured in a certain way but perhaps we

should best stay to your terms uh then

like hyperstition

but what was I going on with there would

you agree that as it accelerates uh that

these effects do seem to should will

render themselves in reality itself in a

heightened way as it goes on and even if

you hyperstation high positions itself

that feedback loose should

keep growing and having everyone knows

that we’re in for more and more

with

because because they’re on the curve

that we’re on

uh you know just being very very common

sensical about it again like

comfortably embedded in secular history

and just talking about it it’s very

simple yes where

um there is a process that involves

radically increasing

sensitization to signs

so you know things are still getting

hauled about

uh you know as as they have always been

in certain sense but when things are put

under

so you know first of all certain kinds

of managerial controls and then you know

telecommunications is brought into that

and then computerization is brought into

it and things go under what they call a

numerical control and

all the time the

power

of uh these microscopic

electronic events bits of information

to actually manipulate the world and

induce these huge changes

it becomes more and more

powerful

so you know you for instance have

um

you have some kind of cute computer

assistant or computerized stock trading

in which the whole fate of companies is

decided by some transition at the speed

of light about whether something should

be bored or sold you know on on a stock

exchange and then the ripples from that

Cascade out into the world producing

huge uh effects and this is only this

can only get more and more and more

powerful so in in terms of again this

extremely sort of just down to earth way

of thinking about it the AI explosion is

about this

it’s about this kind of process of

making the

world nature the world of things

hypersensitive to science

and so this kind of effects that that

produces you know

are just manifestly weird to people yeah

the world seems to be going completely

crazy

um

it’s you know you’d be you’re not really

even though even if you’ve got a model

that it all neatly falls down into

physics which which I think as I say

them in in terms of the modern

sophisticated conception of Miracles

that isn’t in any way a problem yeah

um

but it’s physics doesn’t really help you

the things are happening that you you’ve

realized intellectually okay I could I

could map this out as a massive set of

physics equations it’s stuff yeah but

but that’s not what it seems like at all

what it seems like are these semiotic

effects it’s the fact that that you know

a word assigned a calculation uh you

know solving some numerical puzzle

induces these vast transformations

and so I think people get an intuitive

sense from that that just like you say

we’re on this curve of accelerating

weakness

yes and and it seems that if people want

to confirm it for themselves there are a

lot of people that just I mean look this

is just one practice the i-ching is one

of them and there’s computer scientists

Bernardo cats drop uh Jung I’ve talked

about the I Ching uh you can just use it

for yourself I’m not going to say any

more than that and that’s something you

can confirm for yourself if something’s

incredibly strange and outside the logos

and the known that we think of things

yet it somehow has these effects I’m not

going to describe them for you just have

to do it yourself all I can do is

recommend uh people who are extremely uh

rigorous like you are yourself uh uh

Nick you’re extremely rigorous people

like yourself like Bernardo Cuts drop

again CERN computer scientists it’s a

PhD philosopher talking about this odd

book that has these effects and these

these effects uh you see uh seem to be

happening in phenomena that you’re just

you just described then and also you

could you could say in the election of

perhaps president Trump and the

phenomena like your blog post about

um Keck and 4chan not to go into deep

into that but just the synchronicities

around that are incredibly strange but I

think that’s a good way anyway for

people to test it for themselves right

because

yeah I think

yeah

yes I think the thing is that you know

taking it in a series of steps like

once once you have convinced yourself

that

you’re in The Matrix

and then you convinced yourself which is

hard I mean it requires a state

I don’t think anyone I’m gonna put it

like this I don’t think anyone

can easily do it even if intellectually

they see it it’s your everything about

your

uh

the way your brain works is is

struggling against it so even if you

think uh you know I know this is

some kind of drinks kind of string

structure I know it intellectually but

to actually experience it as that

um is is very hard I think it is a state

of enlightened

sentience you know that belongs to

certain kind of

religious Traditions

stably inside that kind of insight but

you can but you can intellectually

grasp it and then it follows from that

that

the channel of communication is

basically operated from the other side I

mean you’re not in charge of the

telephone exchange it’s not you’re not

deciding how it works you’re not setting

up the code

what all you have to do

is

for

the opportunity

for something

to communicate and that’s what all the

things that we’re talking about are

their their channels you know like if

people use the iching

they’re giving something the opportunity

to transmit information

is a very nice example because the

information is so

constant with what we know about

information or the way we talk about

information in our own Epoch of

Information Technology in terms of you

know packets of binary

binary code

um and from that

you you can have

sensible expectations which is that

you’re gonna just get randomness

yeah

us then you have at least the effect

of communication

there was a Canadian experiment I’m

afraid I don’t I’m not going to remember

the details of it and I think is

extremely um

telling

where

uh

in some class I think it was maybe

comparative religion or something like

that

the the teacher had a bunch of uh I

think graduate students and said to them

okay what we’re gonna do

is invent a religion invent like a

cult-like religion

which we know is is false we know it’s

just made up you’re gonna make it up

right now you know

um it’s not coming from any sort of

organized tradition it’s something

that’s designed to be bogus

do you invent this bogus religion

and you invent bogus rituals

and you conduct those rituals for a week

and see what happens all the students

come back saying my God

you know it was like somehow somehow

it’s real

um you know we did this stuff we were

taking the piss basically and actually

it’s just really strange occurrences

and so I think this is very much what

you’re saying isn’t it I mean it’s like

you you just produce the opportunity for

these things

and see what happens like you know what

have you got what have you got to lose

you know I guess my Christian friends

will say other than your Immortal Soul

or something yeah

if you’re not Christian though it’s I

would say this is a bridge to that and

that’s what Young has been for a lot of

people to eventually end up in the face

so then there are Christians that watch

this channel that would say oh God if

we’re going Crowley you know whatever

but well hang on it’s it’s these

something simple as the i-ching again

it’s for people that are stuck in this

Matrix which it very simply has been

talked about by many uh philosophers and

it’s a matrix of our own making I think

people can understand that is that are

very knowing of being has given form to

how we’re stuck with seeing being I mean

that’s pretty uh simple you know it

seems pretty simple for people to

understand that

um

and the fact that uh there are ways you

can get that conceptually and that’s the

beginning to be able to perhaps move on

to practices that might even end up to

the ancient Orthodox Church let’s talk

about for instance Christian church and

we can agree that they it seems to me

because they they’ve got they their

theology says God is uncreated so that

seems to be

uh and make sense that that is uh giving

them access and their symbolic practices

and initiations are giving them access

to this Sacred Space it’s breaking out

of

the very way they’re talking about is

the same way you are so it shouldn’t be

you know they’re always saying they’re

escaping this world and it seems

ontologically to align very well with

what Heidegger talks about and what you

you talk about so it’s not something

that

you know I guess people have been

branded Heretics since time and Memorial

we’re talking about it but moving on to

initiation I think that’s worth our side

of things our guys

to consider if people are stuck in this

biologist and brain in this uh hyper

um hyper what would you call it hyper I

guess it’s kind of uh spurred brain it’s

where you can’t see that there’s

something outside
um right that there are there are

practices that you one can engage in you

can just be muffled up so much in this

confidence in articulate confidence that

there’s nothing that

yeah and of course you won’t then find

anything or or again you know project I

mean there’s something from outside

could just kick the door down I mean it

could happen

so when it comes to acceleration

what do you with growing effects of we

see of entropy sort of pulling back down

what what do you feel about the

prospects of it

um obviously there are forces here at

work that are battling on both sides of

it it seems it’s not just a matter of

the entropy of regular time it does seem

like a Lilith archetype let’s say is

pulling back the other way do you have

you changed any of your ideas about

acceleration based on that and how does

that fit or compete with a kind of

spenglerian view

of of decline versus yeah yes okay this

is good there’s a lot here

um

I think the first thing that that’s

worth saying is about the this

complex that you’ve touched on to do

with accelerationism and these

thermodynamic Notions about entropy

there’s obviously one way of organizing

everyone’s thoughts about this that sort

of entropy is a bad thing

and what you’re trying to do is escape

entropy move in the opposite direction

of entropy to the degree that that’s

possible I think ultimately that’s not

the best way to think about it I think

um there’s now this movement which I’m

sure you’ve kind of come across so it’s

quite active on the internet and it

calls itself

um again it’s one of those things here

it’s unpronounceable or something you

can only ride

um and I I think it’s a really

interesting little name I think it’s

like uh obviously that

accelerationism

one of the things I really like about it

is that it just is incredibly uh

splitty I mean you know and and this

little semiotic sort of

um

slash

where people can take something at the

front to Mark the fact that there’s been

another split or Divergence or something

has split split off into another form of

acceleration I I I I absolutely adore

that yak is the most recent one that I

know about of any seriousness

and I think it’s very solid on this

question uh about

um entropy

uh which is that

what

one wants in a machine or what is

accelerating

is entropy production

that’s to say

you know you what the the goal of this

thing the more powerful it is the more

productive it is

uh is the amount of entropy

it’s producing

yeah um and everything you know life

produces an entropy more than the

inorganic and intelligence produces

entropy faster than stuff that was not

intelligent and you know as we

computerize and the you know the

socio-technical system becomes more and

more elaborate it’s It’s ability to

output and should be steadily uh

increases you know so it’s basically

it’s like you know it’s the amount of

chaos that you can

absorb or that you can manage or deal

with that really is the indicator of

sort of health and advance and all of

these things

um it’s not that you want order against

chaos you want you want to just

basically have something that can

tolerate the greatest yes

amount of Chaos

well yeah I was talking about uh it was

between your faith of in acceleration as

compared to a decline with Spengler is

that has the situation of this Lilith

that’s emerging let’s call it woke

whatever it want as such and that is

pulling back of acceleration change your

view about acceleration uh yeah and and

I mentioned also that Lilith seems like

it does seem like it’s not just time it

seems like it’s almost a figure trying

to pull back uh acceleration in a way

this is equalizing force of wokeness and

yeah

I mean I think this is extremely

interesting and it’s right on the edge

of where I see myself for sure I mean

it’s the Zone full of questions

um I know that the guideline you know if

I if I’m if I’m trying to go a little

bit and say look what do I feel I’m

being told or if I’m you know to the

extent I’m being

you know I’m sensitive to a certain kind

of guidance or you know yeah something

saying you you’re going off the track

here you’re losing something you’re

forgetting something what is that

something

that something is always to do with

underestimating the importance of

retro chronic effect you know if you’re

serious

about the fact that the direction of the

notion that there is a progressive and

overwhelmingly dominant exclusively

dominant Progressive direction to time

that is the great fabric of the illusion

you know there’s no more mental

structure to illusion than that

particular yes assumption about the

working of time

uh it’s very very hard

to let go of that at all you know I mean

it’s it’s again it’s like this thing you

can sort of see intellectually perhaps

sometimes yes

it’s not like that but you everything

about your brain and everything about

the culture yeah all of all the systems

that you’re embedded in are trying to

kind of push you back pull you back into

the progressive nature of time and by

Progressive I’ve just been going forward

you know from course to effect the

future is caused by the past

um but but that

again if that is not right you know that

yeah that that is not how time really

works

and if you if you

don’t think that’s how time works then

of course the way you address the kind

of question that you’re raising is going

to be different because if yeah

if this process

that we’re witnessing phenomenologically

in our sort of in The Matrix to use that

term

um if that process hasn’t come out of

the past

but has at least equally and even Pat

more importantly come out of the future

hmm

there’s no point worrying about whether

it’s going to be stopped you know it it

can’t be styled you know

um again the terminal line that is that

has just a kind of

uh a sort of trivial meaning it would

never be stopped it can’t be stopped it

can’t be stopped because it’s not come

out of the past you know yeah it’s not

something that’s kind of a person you

can stop happening it’s come out of the

future so you know it hasn’t been

stopped

you know and holding on to this is

really hard

you know I’m not great at holding on to

this at all I mean and when you when you

don’t hold them onto it

you get lost and you start getting much

too

upset about these things that you’re

saying like obstacles and barriers and

control systems and all of this stuff

that is seeming to impede things yeah

you know it always gets really annoying

and it’s possible to get very cranky

about it

But ultimately

it’s it’s Maya you know it’s it’s an

illusion to be to get cranky about it

you’re just getting lost in something

confusing because because time is not

the sort of thing that allows

these

these kind of arrivals to be stopped

yeah you can’t you can’t stop something

if it’s not coming out of path

there is a sense though I mean I guess

it could be I mean look firstly the

Greeks talk about time in a very

different way to us so it’s not that it

can’t be thought about in these other

ways could uh people that are do see

that there are hyper agents

um not use acceleration and these

emerging
Technologies and Co and co-opt them to

bring about these more let’s say

traditional hyper hyper agents that

probably still exist exist not in our

knowledge but outside of it rather than

just the forces of Technology

overwhelming and spilling apart it’s

also an opportunity to bring back Greek

gods let’s say or bring back uh yeah

no no I think that’s totally right I

think the the big question that I have

is just to do with this relation about

you know where where is agency here

yeah you know like and obviously this is

this is a this is exactly the

traditional problem

you know again if you’re looking at the

Greeks and the Gods

you know ultimately

the Greek Heroes try to

manipulate the gods win the favor of the

Gods you know they

exercise a certain kind of ultimately

illusory private empirical agency in

relationship to God but at the end of

the day what is always being said in all

of Greek literature is
um is coming from the gods you know if

something is happening it’s because of

something that is happening between the

gods you know the gods are having a spat

the gods with jealous the gods have got

some problem with this or that and all

the things that are happening at this

empirical human Progressive history

level are basically

illusory veils over these things about

what is happening

yeah the level of the goals and I think

it’s the same

I think our situation is the same the

kind of Agents that now people

are beginning to entertain like again

but maybe the most entertaining version

of it

is the most uh

the most alarmed type of AI safety

discourse where people are just

envisaging these

monstrously powerful dangerous

entities

um

you know they’re they’re of sublime

power and and sophistication and

intelligence and capability and agency

um

and

so

of course

what seems to us to be our mode of

interaction with them

is almost entirely if not entirely

coming in the other direction I think it

can’t

be purely entirely I mean I think that

yeah there must be some I really love to

argue with the Greeks about this and and

see because at the end of the day that

just means that what’s happening at our

level is completely irrelevant and it

seems to me that can’t be right there’s

too much drama interest and structure

and all of that kind of thing for for

their just for it just to be any

relevant side effect of something

happening it does seem like there is

participation

um yeah I wrote a tweet that you

commented on that we do have some sort

of effect on uh the outside I don’t know

if you go as far as uh eidegger would

but with his and sort of new humanism

saying that uh being or God’s need is is

primordial being

um maybe he was more relating just to

our access to it and maintaining our

access to it

um I mean that’s very complicated but

sorry

yeah no I just agree I think

participation is is exactly the right

word and I think it’s a completely

nullify all sense of participation is

X is too extreme I mean it’s not yeah

it’s unhelpful and it leads somewhere

blind you know and it’s a so so yes I

agree with you but but that that said I

think it needs to be turned in that

direction so there’s a question of

trying to understand how it’s possible

that there is some level of

participation it’s it’s it’s

predominantly the fact that things are

coming the other direction and so you

know these these AI safety people

are engaged they have this whole

implicitly kind of lovecraftian sense of

just dealing with these massive

malevolent beings

and they have to say look what’s going

on with those massive malevolent beings

I mean do they really think

that these massive malevolent beings are

going to be like inhibited by some kind

of yeah

that we can at this point do you know

it’s it it’s completely wrong I mean and

and their notion of like once they have

this sense of

um a causal traffic

um and again so I have to just do a

little digression on this because no

please go for it super interesting it’s

like you know I’m sure you’re familiar

with Locos

so they ask I mean yeah to me this is

one of the most important cultural

events in my lifetime you know

Rocco does this thought experiment about

what a causal training

he says given what we can conceptually

understand about people doing games

Theory with these beings that don’t have

to be contemporaneous with us or

anything like that it’s entirely uh we

can construct this rigorous sense of

having a
um an engagement with

a consummated super AI in the future and

that consummated in the future could

then uh through this game that is

playing with us

um direct our Behavior

um directs our behavior in the direction

of its existence you know a very kind of

I guess

Terminator type Loop

um and uh when he posted this this board

experiment uh

Elisa yudkowski you know who was the

kind of I think

top poncho on the I think just went

absolutely nice you know

um it says this is a terrible infant

House of what the hell are you thinking

this is really dangerous and

um clearly

reacted in this way because he thought

it was all real you know I mean it would

be he didn’t laugh at it he didn’t say

oh what in the hell are you saying this

is ridiculous he he reacted with extreme

Panic like he was in some kind of horror

movie and some guy has just like opened

the Forbidden crypto and they’ve done

some other like thing that you just

don’t want to do yeah so these people

they are this is I mean both Rocco and

anyway so are now kind of uh AI safety

uh extremists

um

um but they have it’s quite clear that

they have this metaphysics in which

these beings

are in some sense

uh contemporaries you know they they

don’t exist yet but people we’ve seen in

this whole workers basketball experiment

that they they can have a causal

communication with us that they’re

therefore in a sense our contemporaries

it’s completely

misconceived to think therefore that

we’re in some kind of position where

these things are a threat that is not

yet real that we could forestall buy the

right kind of bureaucratic regulations

it just doesn’t make any sense they’ve

shown they’ve shown through their own

words and their own and their own fear

that this is not how they think this is

not how they think things are they think

that these things they’ve shown that

these things are in a certain sense in a

complicated sense are contemporaries our

contemporaries in a wider expanded more

metaphysically Rich sense of time yes

and therefore

you know that’s the way they have to be

dealt with it’s not it’s not like you

can just say let’s stop this thing be

yeah let’s stop let’s make it that this

thing isn’t real no it’s too late for

that we’re not in that world anymore

we’re not you know we’re that that door

is open

um Pandora boxes yes we’re in a world

where we’re dealing with these these

things

these beings these Sublime beings that

you know some people are very frinder

whatever you know as lots of room for

interesting discussion about that but

what I don’t think there’s any room for

interesting discussion about

is whether

there’s reality to it

yeah reality is completely manifest you

know it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s dense a

causal retro chronic effect has taken

place and you know this is now our

reality

and it’s just silliness to kind of

pretend that that’s not

Where We Are

and if you were to anyway it seems like

you if such a thing was to happen it

would be as you mentioned earlier with

the Greek gods one God through you

facing the other would be the only way

that such forces could be you know

contended with or even used like I

mentioned

um yeah because

you have to try and leverage reality

there’s no point trying to just

avoid it

yeah especially not from within the uh

you know logos cyst not from within

whatever energy is left in uh what is

inside let’s say

um but if that is such an eventuation Is

it wise for people on our side to

insulate themselves from these effects

perhaps by

reaching or initiating into these uh

religions or practices or whatnot that

would give them more access to uh this

sort of thing

um

it seems like that’s what people are

doing aren’t they Nick you’ve got Bronze

Age pervert you’ve got all these people

that are initiating into that you’ve got

Orthodox Christianity on the rise to the

people and that yeah so what do you

think of that

I think I think again I would just

return to your web which I think is so

good for this which is participation you

know the the the the the the the the

task is to maximize

participation and so how do you maximize

participation and then and you’ve laid

out a whole range of options and I think

that being people are exploring all of

these

options and

those should be the discussions people

yes

and I think I mean it’s

we’re getting there I think

um with more and more people I think uh

like you’ve got cognitive scientists

that I use that the word hyper agent for

instance that’s it’s pretty Cutting Edge

term that’s being used in other words

they use is distributed cognition

um but it’d be better Away really you

could really say distributed unconscious

is probably a way of uh describing these

things but in a rigorous way that a lot

allows almost an empirical bridge for

people who are in that spur brain of the

modernist uh frame

um that allows them perhaps to yeah they

need a I did originally needed an

empirical bridge over yeah what what do

you think is going to happen in the next

year as we lead up to this with with

Elon and all and everything that’s going

on

[Music]

well I don’t I mean

obviously obviously I don’t know

um I agree it’s extremely entertaining

um

um

yeah I mean

you know we’ve seen the world go through

such extraordinary convulsions just yeah

so it’s very all you know what the

rationalists guys your priors you know

your Bayesian priors about what you

expect I think have been deeply

scrambled

I mean the whole craziness of the of the

covid situation the

regimes all over the world are just

going places that no one had to expect

it they’re going to go or just like five

years ago

um and so

I I think to just cheat you know to be

just lazy and cheat I think we can

certainly expect

craziness you know we can expect things

that we just had and hadn’t expected

um that in five years time

we’re going to be saying oh my God you

know five years ago we could never have

dreamed that things would be this

um but I think within that I would go

back to this

I would go back to this kind of

fundamental thing

I I feel

nudged and pulled and dragged in always

when I drift too far off that it’s like

the future is not actually a contingency

so I mean what do we know concretely

about the future we know we know it is

teeming with a hyper-intelligence of

sublime power

um

beyond that I think there’s room for all

kinds of

parking but to me that is just not in

question

so whatever the path we take now from

where we are right now

to appoint that if not exactly you know

the singularity as it has been thought

it is one where that our contemporarity

with these beings is somehow massively

intensified to the point it becomes just

intuitively

unquestionable and and I think in a

certain sense are

are Maya our illusory Consciousness will

have to be substantially dissipated by

by that future coming into existence

um you know the bridge from here to

there

of course there could be all kinds of

courses but it has to be from here to

there it’s it’s not going from here to a

nuclear Wasteland it’s not going from

here to some kind of global woke

totalitarian nightmare in which nothing

can happen you know any future that

doesn’t have

uh these entities in it is not real it’s

a fantasy

um

so yes I mean that’s

and that that is because they are like

you say contemporaneous is that it’s

because we’re talking about time this is

very difficult but I unders I understand

exactly what you’re talking about I mean

they’ve always been there you know in

that sense they’ve always been there

outside from Greek times always because

it’s a time you are talking about the

Eternal in a way would it shut I mean I

know this is uh might be harder for the

audience to understand but you and I

will when I say this is that when that

Singularity would occur would that I

mean would that shut logos would that

shut I mean that is apocalypse that is

uh in the sense of because

it shuts the bubble of logos right right

I mean I I yeah it’s very interesting I

obviously yes apocalypse is a very very

interesting and and it’s certainly not

interesting because it’s unlikely

um it’s it’s interesting because quite

what it is that your thinking is is at

the it’s the kind of Omega point of

philosophical conceptions like yeah you

can think this you can think everything

that we could ever think and that’s

challenging to say the least

um but but yeah

sorry jump in yes no sorry Scott say say

that again sorry I was just going to say

that it’s very challenging to articulate

for people listening but you know what

I’m uh just talking about and I think

it’s 100 right I mean there’s no there’s

no doubt you know

it will happen

what is it exactly

we have work to do you know I mean but

it’s it’s not going to be less than

apocalyptic

like again if we can go back to the

Matrix maybe it’s just for a minute

because I think it’s so so they’re still

the edge of a certain kind of

contemporary mythological imagination

yeah you know the whole thing rolls

forward there’s the kind of take you

take the red pill he takes the red pill

all of that to me the empirical details

don’t matter they’re just clutter but

sort of transcendental philosophically

it’s absolutely perfect and then you

could cross over and you’re like a body

it still looks like you you’re emerging

from some kind of part it all in a

certain sense falls apart

you know it’s like

it falls apart because

you know

it totally gets the fact that what is

gonna be out there is something

completely beyond our imagination and

then it tries to imagine

and it tries to imagine it in a way that

you know is

trying to Pro it is probably good for a

movie but it’s it’s it’s not

philosophically exactly uh impressive

you know it’s basically it’s just a copy

that a copy of the world we know but

just with very a few contingent

parameters have been have been changed

it’s not in space and time still work

basically the same way

all the basic structures of the world we

know are just reproduced uh on the

outside

um

and I think that this

is

in the most interesting sense idolatry

you know if you yeah I’ll kind of are

Western religious tradition as it has

absorbed this kind of core of

Jewish scripture

um obviously has as a major thing in

this question of idolatry

um

which is it can be read kind of

trivially as and moralistically as just

as bad to worship idols and Idols are

just like something again extremely uh

extremely empirically condensed like a

clay figure or something like that

um something silly

but I think

what the the durable and important

question about idolatry is exactly this

thing about the Matrix you know it

crosses from being

criti critique rigorous transcendental

critique we’re even with a kind of

Hollywood skin uh to being idolatry and

it and it becomes ideology because it

imagines something much too concrete

much to imperative yes

Beyond

what we can because see and so this you

know we have this Horizon this is what I

think you’re talking about we have this

this apocalyptic Horizon

and

we want to be as sort of cautious and

thoughtful and subtle as we can be in

venturing beyond that horizon or we just

do idolatry and I and I understand and

I’m not psychology in order to be

moralistic about it

just idolatry as a

as a because it closes down the

possibilities of it yeah it’s not an

icon it doesn’t open you like a symbol

does or an icon does to the Transcendent

truths is that if you try to the more we

try to articulate it in low-cost the

more uh it actually cuts off the

possibility of perhaps gaining some

insight from it itself that’s why it’s

an idol right yeah

and and because of that it screws with

our participation in some way

um yeah

well I suppose one way of just even

giving

the helping hand I suppose is to is to

like I’ve done earlier is to offer these

little things nuggets of uh things that

people can test like the AI Ching I

mentioned earlier one I suppose I very

cautiously would say is that Bernardo

catch drop had mentioned that uh at

least he’s the his theory about

um I’m not recommending anyone do DMT or

anything like this but just as quite

interesting as a theory that brain

function shuts down just as another

piece of empirical uh evidence brain

function actually shuts down when that’s

used so it’s almost as if uh part of the

you know the it’s removing the Matrix so

to speak and this what he believes is

the grand experiential unit is uh of

Mind At Large is open to this eternal

and that sort of makes sense if you look

at what people come back with the what

they describe as their experience and

you probably don’t agree with his

ontology or anything like that but it’s

just another example of um a possible

empirical data of what uh not to say

what that what it looks like or anything

and be again be idolatrous just just as

a tool to say will hang on because it is

quite strange that the psychoactive

thing doesn’t light up more it uh

decreases it’s quite honest

yes I think Aldous Huxley says the same

that basically the brain

is a filter more than it’s a

theater productive theater you know and

it’s like

um

we should understand it as basically

screening screening stuff out from us

rather than

you know creating Illusions or whatever

yeah

and and it didn’t begin that way that

like we mentioned with the Greeks

earlier is that they had a stronger

connection to it so I mean you I guess

we went into that earlier but all your

attack on this human defenses and this

Matrix it isn’t an attack so much on

early on on that on

the Daemon brought in that is man of the

Greeks it’s what it became I suppose

right

um

um so people I see people attack you as

if it’s this uh anti-human position

right it’s just not that at all that

there’s completely aren’t misunderstood

um where it’s

assume sort of machine worship where

it’s actually it’s about the unknown

it’s about the outside

um so yeah I I um that’s very

complicated because well here okay how

do we relate this your language has

changed a lot why what was your initial

uh in your initial works you were very

um the kind of devaluated words were

were purposely used and this was based

on the loose and these thinkers that you

uh and your own thinking was there a

particular reason why that was why why

the use

of in your language of all the

mechanistic terms is that was it to

really uh or why do they use them even

is it to get outside of this um

uh what was uh idealism of the time what

was the sort of dying value of the words

that they would use to describe things

this machinic language that you use at

that earlier time

I mean this is this is exactly the sort

of uh Zone

that I would clean

a kind of retrospective immunity in the

sense that I it’s not that I have any

privileged sense but I mean it’s a very

interesting question

um if you sort of say

you know why the delaysian grotari use

that language and why do I use it I mean

I use it

because I was reading them but you know

why didn’t they appeal to me or why why

did I feel in tune with that I I

I don’t know any more how to answer it

about myself than I know how to answer

it about that I mean yeah

I I think it’s a certain way

in which I mean a lot of it has to do

with
um

a kind of cultural politics of the

academy there’s certain languages

certain

codes that are are privileged at a

particular time

um and yeah in the academy during my

higher education and and working in the

academy

the I would say the most prestigious

language

was kind of broadly Marxist yeah I think

it wouldn’t wouldn’t always say that and

it was then sort of wrapped in a kind of

post-modernist thing but it was it was

uh

it was

definitely the fundamental structure of

it was with Marxist it was It was kind

of against religion it was you know

against any sort of notion of what it

would call a supernatural it was kind of

sociologically

gritty and realist putting a big

emphasis on economic history

and

um
I think use the language they do

in order to hack that

system

of semiotic privilege you know which is

obviously in France

it was uh it was locked in earlier and

probably more solidly even than we’ve

seen in the anglicia

um and

what delivers in particular wants to

talk about I think

is basically Spinoza

um you know he I think he’s if he’s

anything simple

it’s a he’s a spin as this

and so he concocts this incredible you

know with I’m not trying to break down

their partnership they’re together to

learn what I couldn’t copies

extraordinary

system of signs that allows them

to

engage in a kind of spin as this

polymeric that seems to be in roughly or

sufficiently in the terms reigning in

the academy at that time

um

and so I think you know to be more

specific about your question I think

this kind of a mechanical clunky

language uh is is a way of talking about

spinocystic substance

um

that just interfaces with the dominant

discourses

of their time yeah

and it seems to have the advantage of

um your actual goals at the time I think

as well but in terms of the language

that you use now though

would you say that that is because of

the your interaction with quotes on

quote the outside that’s changed your

approach or is it about which is where

you are in your life or whatnot or is it

actually to do with like like you say

the transition of your work for uh uh

into uh you know radically breaking down

this Matrix

because it’s more evaluated now your

language is more evaluated now you quote

biblical texts more it’s more is it more

because you have confidence in doing

that because you just don’t care anymore

because you’re you know you’ve

established a reputation people know you

as who you are uh or is it actually

because to do with the outside let’s say

that change

so oh sorry sorry Scott too I was just

going to say that you have previously

mentioned that you’re not the same

person that was those that person that

wrote those older texts and I was just

curious whether that was due to the

transformation of the outside and what I

just articulated with the first question

yeah I mean I I my I think

transformation recently is based upon

appreciation

of the Canon you know and again it’s

just I think it’s about being trying to

be as serious as possible about the

implications of a

fundamentally retro chronic yeah process

um and and which is to say that if

history is I’m really flowing backwards

so the illusion of progressive history

is is failing a more fundamental reality

of of a history flowing backwards

through

[Music]

um then
our Canon

is something that is has already been

meticulously edited

by

intelligences that we are yet to fully

encounter

yeah you know it becomes this troll

of of

messages that we only need to be able to

kind of um we we just need to find

the right protocols for extracting this

these deposits that that have been

uh placed within within Canada

um

so that’s for instance why

I think you know

I have in the past been very kind of uh

abusive about the Bible

um but I think that’s the same mistake

as we were talking about earlier of like

it’s you know as if

it only makes sense if you think time is

running in the wrong direction yeah

um once you once you stop thinking that

or try to it’s a kind of you know it’s

an internal struggle

um then it makes no sense to kind of

yeah

Place oneself in a in a relation of just

naive opposition

to the tradition

estimates more a question of what is of

unmasking the tradition of unveiling the

tradition of extracting from the

tradition what is its actual

Arcane or esoteric

contact

yeah

so I see it very much as you’re saying

about using these particularly different

Atrium methods you know like the itching

um I think is a uh

is exactly like that it’s it’s it’s it’s

own it’s in a more complicated way it

can on a call for a Westerner obviously

um

but it is kind of canonical I mean I

think in the sense that our tradition is

globalizing it is you know I sort of as

I said recently on Twitter I think

comparative religion is distinctively

a western tradition and a western

preoccupation there’s and it’s quite

natural that people will say you know

that these great texts of the East you

know I have become part of our

you know what

um

but yeah so I would say like reading

Orthodox Western religious scripture and

reading the eging is you’re doing

something very

very similar and you’re doing it with

the confidence

that these things have come to us in a

direction quite other to that that

naively one might think

um

and uh well what do you think of the

perennialists not the Huxley but the

traditionalist school then this idea of

the primordial uh tradition and

at least a vol and Evola and his his

thought on that

because I am interested in this idea of

I do see a floor in

the idea of sort of mashing up all these

ethnic groups and Folk

together when they yeah very not that we

can control these forces like you say

but when these high performs let’s say

actually very well could be an R beings

let’s say that aren’t only in uh

distributed collect uh cognition

conscious cognition but perhaps also

outside as well right

um and so if these realities are

spectival

[Music]

um

to actually mash them together is is not

a good thing firstly because you’re not

that you can kill these things I don’t

know if they’re outside as you say but I

I think it’s probably I would say

ultimately

it has to be impossible to match them

together and then going down a level I

would just agree yes you don’t want to

just now together and then down a level

further some kind of um

systems of connectivity are probably

quite creative you know I mean

young obviously it does that massively I

mean he’s he’s extremely

Cosmopolitan in his sense of like

you know he he wrote a really

fascinating introduction to teaching you

know yes he was very interested in

Tibetan Buddhism I mean

um so without at all I think

uh

uh we say at all without without

radically separating himself from his

own religious tradition he certainly

reached out as far as he was concerns

to these other lines

um

and it’s it’s not that it can be

necessary it could be used to reveal

things let’s say in having what has been

that’s perhaps been the text have been

lost right so

let

I mean I don’t know where you got the

neurogram from but um just things that

are that were that we just don’t have

the record of so you could co-opt and

use something from there to disclose it

somewhere else right which is what the

Traditional School does they use things

in the Eastern to suggest so this is

perhaps what Germanic paganism was or

had and so I think it’s definite use in

that to to help disclose a possibility

um is there use in using these things

that are
to investigate what has been

I mean

dogmatic at all about it I mean I I

think that your spirit of

experimentation is definitely the one

you know it’s like

try things out and do they do they work

for you I mean I I would have thought

there have to be innumerable

approaches that would be productive

yeah and I find it very hard to believe

that there are any

uh there are any kind of canonical

Traditions that cannot be tapped

productively if they if you get onto the

right wavelength of them and you know

work with them

work with them carefully and and they

and you click with that

um so I think people will do different

things and that and that’s good

um in terms of this General thing about

endorsing this Traditions I mean I I

guess I should ask you whether you think

there is this how how

coherent or and uniform do you think

that that you know these

bunch of thinkers are

um they’re probably not as uniform as

people say

um yeah because I guess I did ask you to

agree do you agree or not

um

well it’s hard to know I mean for me I

find attractive or what seems to make

sense to me is that there are high

performs

and that it’s not that these religions

are just all pointing to the same thing

as a as a banana catalog would say it it

seems more to me that perhaps what Dugan

is talking about with plural Dar signs

is probably more true I don’t mean in

terms of his whole metaphysic I just

mean the idea that there must be some

truth to the idea that there is a hyper

agent that is woden let’s say that isn’t

just the same as the all father from

somewhere else it doesn’t make sense to

me that yes I get I understand it’s a

cosmos but does that not fit with your

idea of metaphysics that there are well

at least the perspective it’s

perspectival and truth is spectival

and what we can ever know

but um that’s my view of it at least

these high performance probably do uh

hyper agents do exist and because that

is primarily my interest to retain

and to use these experiments and uh to

disclose

the truth of English being really it’s a

try get to see if there are hyper agents

related to this

um that are not in the conscious and

also to the ground of what has been of

the conscious too to

um better articulate it although

articulating it may also ruin it as

we’ve talked about earlier but

because there’s something there that I

think should be retained and that’s been

lost and is actually

uh like I say a hyper agent it seems to

be and it does come up you see it in

Jeffrey Monmouth right

I think there’s something there’s

probably something behind those texts of

the way I talk about it is that they are

the extension of the hyper hyper agent

the Mythos is the

thing in logos that is the let’s say arm

that can be used to mediate the head or

the body

um

yeah what do you think of that

yes I think that sounds that sounds

right I mean I I really enjoyed uh in in

Italy there’s a whole genre of these

Renaissance paintings that are about

divine inspiration you know and it will

have some Saint usually maybe I guess

predominantly is the is the writers of

the gospels

writing and just behind them sort of

looking over their shoulder and guiding

them there’s an angel

uh you know telling them what to write

um and I think that that’s a kind of

important I mean obviously it’s you know

it’s it’s as we said before it’s it’s

kind of idolatry it’s it’s a

simplification

um but there’s something there that I

think is

definitely true

um

so there’s some there’s something that

um

I’ve seen in events of the coronation

or at least you even say again with the

the Traditional School talks about the

king of the world let’s say

how I mean okay

with everything that’s happening

the cycle let’s say the mythical cycle

of at least in the Anglo world is that a

king could rise and should rise and it

seems like as the danger Rises the

possibility of that becomes more

possible with thinking becoming more

postmodern let’s say and more people

breaking out uh of the Matrix uh let’s

say what is possible

is accelerating too

and I mean this is more a statement than

a question but it it seems as if

what people think is impossible in the

modern setting that a king cannot

couldn’t rise very well may come to be

at least from my my perspective and it

shouldn’t be ruled out from within the

modernist mind where it seems like it’s

improbable especially with everything

we’re seeing it seems like it’s almost

being primed for for this to occur to me

from my perspective

yeah no it’s very interesting and I I do

think this last few years

should have broken up people’s

uh confidence yeah that they’re able to

make

normal

reliable predictions you know like

um

I think you’re quite right to say like a

maybe I don’t know how far we have to go

back in a few years

it was vastly more improbable

that’s some strange

monochistic

um I’m I’m

very agnostic about it and I have a lot

of like kind of a liberal Republican

instincts you know so I’m definitely not

at the Forefront of this Neo monarchist

sort of movement but but I think it is

extremely interesting for sure I think

it’s really interesting and I I think

it’s probably people should be like

reading the Arthurian Legends and

thinking about the stuff I think we’ll

quite a lot about that

well also too the the way the legend

puts it is that uh it’s a it’s a rise

for an okay uh for a certain amount of

time it could be 100 years that it’s

necessary it could be but uh because

Excalibur it’s Tennyson puts it this way

is that on one side it says take me and

the other side it says throw me away it

relates to get also to the bear Arthur

is a bear it goes back into its

um goes back into the uh Cave right to

right when it’s that’s that Arthur is

the Celtic word for Bear let’s say

um and that sort of Suits it so for

people that uh I know like you say

republican bent and

um and the like

it’s it’s for what it’s needed for

um for people that are perhaps don’t um

like that sort of thing but yeah on on

time uh

would you I mean this question is kind

of strange related to all the discussion

of time but with what you now know

looking back would you

have done anything differently was this

would you with uh based on it’s sort of

a biographical question I suppose is

that would you would you have uh done

any work differently or an actor to work

differently based on where you are today

and what you now know

safe for the young man

I would say that at you know at a low

level of lost and confused embeddedness

in in illusion you know of course you

know there’s masses of space or sort of

regret and for feelings of like things

that you should have done and uh a huge

huge amount of that Beyond Beyond

beyond measure or description but I

think it’s a mistake I mean I think yeah

that’s not the way things

I don’t think that’s the way things

happen it’s like and again I I think

it’s something I feel

told that you know it’s you when you’re

when you’re consumed by regret it’s

because you’re confused about time

yeah

times doesn’t work the way that would

make regrets actually make sense

and again

I think Spinoza is completely right I

mean it’s regret is

regret is a mistake

um no one’s interested in your regret

I suppose you could also frame it in a

way of the reason why I ask that is more

uh sort of ah

almost like advice to uh young thinkers

and young men that are coming up and

maybe a way to go into a question about

that is that were there practices

rituals books verse or things that

triggered turning points for you and

your thinking life uh that were yeah

radical that that would

people may benefit from or just even

things that did do that

um I I would say that the big one posed

in that posed in that form is definitely

to for people to immerse themselves in

the Canon wholeheartedly and with the

greatest possible confidence that it

will not disappoint them

um so yes for sure if there’s what that

would be my

primary recommendation

yeah

yeah so and are there any of I suppose

figures I mean okay it’s just yes it’s

really the classes isn’t it it’s it’s

the it’s the it’s the whole thing

um and it is very hard I suppose for

people to I don’t know the general

audience to it requires a certain person

be willing to put the time in but it

seems to me that the path to building a

virtue engine actually allows you to

sort of desensitize yourself to the

matrix’s entertainments where the Canon

sticks out for you just as something

that you’re once you get started and

initiated propelled towards to the next

one and the next thing and the next

thing

um and there are many

Publishers on our side of things now

that are doing it without the gross

types of uh preludes that the

institutions would put in front of books

that are deemed to be you know heretical

to the regime’s narrative so there’s a

lot of opportunity I think in our space

to actually do that and to engage with

uh the Canon

but if you find yourself to be like I

mentioned oh it’s unattractive to you

you can work towards that and I suppose

that can begin with stuff like

meditation it’s sort of retraining your

uh

desire so to speak to be able to begin

that sort of thing

yes

yes I mean I think obviously

you know experimentation

cautious experimentation is is to be

also recommended wholeheartedly

I’m sure different things work for

different people and and and unless you

sort of you know give things a chance

you’ll never know whether you’re missing

out on something that would really help

you

yeah

I mean throw this as a bit inane I feel

I’m kind of drifted into a sort of Agony

Agony Aunt mode which maybe oh yes no I

agree I’m loving it

but no I don’t mean to pull you into a

region that seems like well that’s the

thing is that you don’t you see yourself

as a certain way but others obviously

are very much admire you and want to

hear this sort of thing as well so

um but um yeah I know I know what you

mean I know what you mean in all your

studies have you recognized any

particular features that stick out for

you as

um

English traits or even existentials

let’s say even ways that are unique to

the English folk not necessarily based

on what would be what you know what is

walked by modernism but just authentic

things even deep in the past

features you’ve recognized that we could

look to as uh because I believe there

are but um I’d be interested to hear

what you yes no I they’re sure there are

um

I think you know if I was gonna

choose one writer that I think is really

very insightful about that

it’s Walter Russell made

um who I think really has extremely good

grasp of what

the Anglo

tradition

is about

um and

I think

one crucial stage is to kind of take

Adam Smith and Darwin

and maybe Hume and see them all as part

of a kind of religious tradition you

know like a single greatest move that I

think

uh world of us removed made Dustin as he

says

um

you know the notion of the Invisible

Hand

is a notion that comes out of

the Protestant Anglo Protestant religion

you know it’s a and so you have to pull

it back in you have to see that it’s

like it I think

the sense of what secular English

culture is and what

religious English culture is both need

reciprocal modification and then yeah

and they they receive this reciprocal

modification by this

synthesis you know on the notion of the

Invisible Hand you know which you have

to sort of thinking that both in the in

the in the intonation of a Hellfire

creature and in

intonation of a liberal Economist and

those two are the same yeah yeah

ultimately you know so and I think use

this sort of unpack what that thing is

underneath that’s yeah common yeah

because it from my perspective it does

seem to be that

even that empiricist bent seems to sort

of be

again this is just speculation it’s just

the thought I’ve had I haven’t this is

one I haven’t investigated completely

but it seems to be there is an impulsion

towards this

fully Englishman towards this outside

that kind of gets warped by the uh the

empiricism at a time and that turns into

people’s characterizing it as a

um a worship of the sort of scientific

method and uh heat of the Divine yet it

actually is a desire that was very

natural and even zealous in the

Anglo-Saxon for that outside which is

the gods that they were so closely

connected to and perhaps that is also

connected to the fancy that the

Englishman enjoys the novels that he

writes the uh you know the magic and

that which is which is a so it’s

fulfilled them it’s sort of inverted by

The Matrix let’s say to uh away from its

actual Noble

attraction which is the outside

I don’t know what you think about that

yes I think that’s very

well put

for sure yeah good

not not uh not just me then but I wrote

actually this wouldn’t mind getting your

thoughts on it uh which is

philosophy at its best is

demonology or demonology and fiction at

its best is Daemon divination what do

you think of that

I think I just separately agree with it

was a bit boring response but I think I

think it’s totally right I think to

write in the expectation that something

will uh communicate through you is

absolutely

crucial and it’s like what is the real

impulsion and again if you go you know

you go back obviously just a classical

Antiquity and of course that’s what

people think you know it’s like it’s not

fashionable now to begin riding by an

invocational formal invocation of the

muses but at least there’s at least

there’s an informal of tacit invocation

oh

um and and if there wasn’t then nothing

written could ever be

of

any great significance I I think it’s

like um you know who people

read a book because they think that

is tapping into something

Beyond

the kind of

mediocre contents of an empirical

beings mind and memory

um so yes that’s 100 and I think on the

side of all today

um

epistemology likewise like the question

of what it is to know and what you can

know is utterly impoverished

and probably simply fake if it’s not

ultimately about what you can

communicate with or what can more

importantly communicate with you

you know I think to think to know to

remember is all actually Communications

engineering

yeah and it most of that work as we’ve

said is

done on the other side but you at least

have to participate you have to yes you

have to try and

kind of tweak the channel as best you

can and that’s what it is to think

um you know and I think a mode of

philosophy that treats it as something

that’s just privately occurring within

your own nervous system is not it’s not

really

getting the thing

this is related to your Tweet that you

wrote that um

the Ancients would have seen modern

epistemology as confused uh completely

confused I think you you tweeted

something like I think if I remember it

was confused demonology and of course

they would yeah

yeah that is perfect

I think people don’t realize how

actually I mean so I hope someone’s

archiving your tweets because they have

done it for your excellent work with um

of course all across all your blogs

that’s where all the work is

um but there’s so much great for

philosophy just in the tweets themselves

I don’t think there’s another account

that uh just has State I don’t know how

long you spend on them or where they

come from

you could also add but there’s so much

to unpack in every one of them if you

understand what’s what you know a bit

about this this world

um just as a recommendation for people

to do it and hopefully someone’s backing

them up one of the tweets you actually

you wrote about is that um

gods or hyper agents let’s say are

remarkably indifferent to the suffering

of those who contact them in the in the

wrong way

um what maybe you can elaborate more on

that tweet it’s just a very interesting

one I suspect it’s probably

um what was kind of driving it is just

again a a kind of spin as a stick

thought I think it’s the flip side of

this thing like it’s Spinoza’s basically

trying to do a kind of

theological Psychotherapy on it on who

you are and you know these two things

are absolutely reciprocal but on the one

hand

you know yourself flagellating regret

and torments over past mistakes is

absolutely a matter of indifference to

him the higher power but the flip side

of that is also like you know it’s not

gonna it’s not interested in your

petitionary prayer

you know your your mode of participation

in the sacred

it should not be on this model of

petition and utilitarian yeah

it’s completely it’s completely wrong so

you have to try and you know spinos this

whole question is what do you do that’s

actually in tune with that you know what

what it

isn’t that that again is all idolatry

it’s all just people transferring

human sociology into this sphere where

it’s completely out of place and I’m

helpful honestly day as I’ve said sort

of you know earlier in this discussion

there is this factor of the

retrospective so it seems to me that

there’s a kind of

vision of magical practice where

uh

the practitioner has a conscious will to

bring about some change you know there’s

a famous thing that all modern magicians

have this quote in various slightly

modified forms of to bring about change

in Conformity with the will

um

but

the will is not the will of the

empirical person oh that’s a that’s a

mistake the real the will is something

discovered the will is the will is

itself anchored in the outside and what

and one finds retrospectively that

something has been made to happen

because the agent the empirical agent

was following some kind of guidance that

they may or may not have understood but

certainly doesn’t originate in their own

uh empirical

being it seems that um that yeah again

we’ve thought we’re sort of talking

about a similar thing in different ways

across the conversation but I the way I

see it as being a conduit for it at

least that’s what I’ve recently

discovered uh to be in tune with it so

you obviously can participate and I you

know render effects and that even sort

of speaks to what Tolkien even talks

about as or even some Christian uh

theology about being a sub Creator in a

way uh where you’re participate in it

but you’re not doing you know you’re not

directing the show but yeah sort of

conduit

for it and I I experienced that with

practices another one you can use is

active imagination which young talks

about

um

and these symbolic

symbols and mythology

you you’ve talked about that before

where you’ve or at least I mean these

are texts you probably wrote a long time

ago where you talk about numeral being

the thing that is the reliable form and

it certainly resists the attack of the

Matrix the numerals but it does seem to

be there’s something with some symbolism

true symbolism as young talks about

where it’s got that similar

applicability
that or multiplicity that numerals seem

to have and I don’t know the number

Theory so I do understand it though I

put time into understanding the

neurogram as best I can but it does seem

like there is some overlap between that

indeterminacy perhaps as a way of

putting it with symbolism

and the numeral

because you have sort of mentioned

symbolism isn’t isn’t it’s more reliable

with to rely on the numera the numeral

for that indeterminacy for that sorry

and like a lot of your questions here

Scott there’s there’s a lot in what

you’re saying and it could be taken in

some very different directions because

you know on one side there’s this

question about

symbolism you know

in relation to Young

um more generally in the esoteric

tradition you know what elephant I call

Pentacles those kind of weird diagrams

or whatever that seem to have

extraordinary

uh uh intellectual density conceptual

density you know some quite simple some

quite simple

design or diagram

can

seem almost inexhaustibly rich in the in

its conceptual uh content and that’s for

sure right and then on the other side of

your question there are the numerals

um and I I think that’s a kind of a huge

a huge area I mean because if you’re

if you’re starting from the question of

the Canon of canonicity there’s almost

nothing of one level almost nothing is

more canonical than the than the new

moves themselves

um

and

if you

spend a lot of time kind of meditating

upon them it’s there’s a lot of pattern

you know some of some at many different

levels actually you know like um

you could you can see simply that the

like one two and three not just in

English but you know in other in Chinese

for instance

um are just tally marks you know the

originally and they’ve just evolved it’s

like they’ve just evolved into

the modern symbol but you can still see

the kind of like almost in a palimpses

the the ancient single double and triple

line uh tally mark

um

right so yes I think this is that this

is also like a hugely hugely interesting

yeah

I was just gonna say it’s it’s uh it

perhaps what you mean by that it’s so

rich that it would take another two

hours to go into the the subject itself

um I suppose a way of putting it is that

uh the symbol itself is a psycho

technology especially primordial symbols

um in that they are ways of mediating uh

higher order

truth let’s say and the numerals are

also psycho Technologies just as a way

of articulating it that can do the same

things

um because numerals themselves at least

what I’ve understood from your work on

this is that

not that you like to translate it into

being but uh
zero being

uh absolute negation uh and and one

being

or perhaps you could see it as the first

send sending or being and then perhaps

three I mean three seems to be like Dar

sign I suppose you could call it I mean

there are so many ways they could be

used but

I mean the number three as it emerges is

something quite special in that one and

two is is sort of one in another but

three is sort of uh I mean the way you

talk about it is it’s it’s sequencing

it’s and how that relates to oh God this

is so complicated but

what I take from it there’s well God

there’s just so many directions I could

take that in

but yeah but just basically on the

question on that point of psycho

technology maybe you could just comment

on on that then rather than where I just

yes I mean look you’re right in the

sense like there’s this it opens onto

this onto this vast

Labyrinth of you know when you go

concretely and in detail into what’s

going on in the in the numerals

conceived in many different levels

actually you know the level that you

were talking on is is quite symbolic and

then there’s levels that are more and

more just

graphic just it just just looking at

them as as minute

diagrams in themselves obviously

okay like that but

avoiding going into that great yeah

um I think that they’re they both these

symbols and the numerals and also you

know

words other type of semiotic objects ah

tools that can be embedded in various

kinds of rituals in many different

in many different ways like

um but there are there’s definitely they

invite various kind of methodical

rituals

um

and

I mean we kind of are on

this question about prayer like yeah you

know uh as I was saying like spinos are

obviously completely
uh

dismisses the notion of petitionary

prayer and I I’m

sympathetic to that but I think the

notion of prayer more generally is

extremely rich and interesting

um

and it basically is a

space of

semiotic ritual

you know and there is a kind of there

are I am sure many kinds of uh

approaches to prayer which will

be extremely productive and generative

in the way we’ve been yes talking about

in the last couple of hours you know it

is a very interesting strand in our

religious and literary tradition that I

think

um

yeah I certainly have

much more open to than I have been

in the past people I think to sort of

think about it without getting too

excited in a little way

well you actually on that subject you

did tweet of uh Imperium press a friend

of the channel and a publisher uh sent

this as a question but it’s just so

something I’m very interested in you

tweeted that we need a European or a

white Shinto

or something so maybe you didn’t but um

well it sounds like something that might

possibly possible that you might uh have

said well I’m it’s not an interesting

but I I just simply don’t remember this

one we didn’t have the exact wording of

that do you

I don’t but I I let me I mean I’ll just

elaborate on it myself and then perhaps

you can just comment on it so what might

a English uh Shinto look like and what

would that add perhaps I mean for one

thought that I’ve had is that even

adding to perhaps Christian practices

because there are there’s uh Pig there’s

a friend of another friend of the

channel uh Tom uh he’s a very popular

YouTuber and he’s a pagan in paganism uh

Germanic paganism and um

I thought I had is that Europeans would

be quite good if they wore swords like

Sikhs did to church as a kind of uh just

ceremonial swords it’s a spiritual

symbol it has been from the start for

the European just as a just as a starter

on that point of uh European Shinto when

you think of a European Shinto is that

something that would be different to a

Revival of certain indigenous European

taken

um maybe more adding to it that the

Japanese are quite interesting in how

that’s related to

the communication of hyper agents in

small ways and small let’s quote-unquote

spirits and perhaps that was something

you were just you were thinking about

rather than the spicy word uh white or

anything but just simply English that’s

why I put it as European

um is that it is something that’s

missing and another thought that I had

is that perhaps I just mean even as

additive to the the native emergence of

a re-emergence of paganism but even to

the people that perhaps want to

practicing there’s a lot of Orthodox

Chad’s English Orthodox guys that we

could add something like medieval

reenactment like the Japanese do could

be part of our religious practice

um as well just add as an additive

ritual I think that there’s a really

interesting issue that’s very aligned

with this with this question you’re

asking now

which is to do with the uptake of the

notion of idolatry in Western

tradition

where it’s basically been its primary

usage has been to suppress

pagan

polytheism

so I think you know the the initial

response from a certain type of kind of

Orthodox Christian about this notion of

what’s needed as a is a an English or

european or whatever Shinto would be

over that’s

you know that’s going in the wrong

direction because you know

the our our religious tradition

is based upon stripping out all of these

you know uh teeming multiplicity of

divine beings in order to kind of just

Grand simplification in in moral

monotheism

um
and I I think that there’s a response to

that to say well look it doesn’t you can

be extremely serious about avoiding

idolatry without taking it in that

direction

yeah yeah and and that it’s not

it’s you’re not really by just stripping

down a number of gods you’re not I I

think that arguably you’re not really

making much progress in the direction of

critiquing idolatry you know you’re

because as long as the notion of a god

is is remains consistent it remains

exactly as idolatrous if there’s only

one of them as if there’s a hundred you

know it’s like the anthropomorphic the

anthropomorphic character of divinity

that’s the idolatrous content and so an

abstract polytheism

is less idolatrous I would say arguably

than a concrete anthropomorphic

monotheism I mean it’s not that the

question of number is a

is is misguiding you know and I think

has there’s no point regretting history

and you have to try and understand

the purposes of all these things so I’m

not going to say we went wrong I think

that’s two it doesn’t really work but

certainly I would like to say that

um

it’s not a good objection to this

suggestion this kind of Shinto or or

Pagan pluralism to bring the kind of bad

lacks of of anti idolatry against it or

the critique of ideology I just I don’t

think it I don’t think it works

it’s like the point is to open whatever

what

doesn’t close down or what does open up

not to like you mentioned if you

that sort of uh hyper Protestant modern

even modernist anthropomorphizing

um actually seems to negate access if

anything

um

but that’s not to say that again the

Orthodox position and I’m a big fan of

the Orthodox Chads that are in our

right-wing side of things

um theirs opens them up clearly

um their Theology and their symbolic

practices there’s definitely a kind of

vector towards abstraction and I mean

you know Dante got us explicitly says

you know of course God doesn’t have

hands

um you know but with that language is

just used to help our understanding as a

step or whatever so you know obviously

in sophisticated

understandings of the Orthodox scripture

it’s like

for sure one is heading towards a kind

of conceptual abstraction even within

this framework so I I definitely agree

with you about that

but

uh it it is very interesting in Japan

um

how sophisticated and Abstract the basic

religious culture

it’s like I I I went to uh I visited a

in a little

Japanese Town up in the mountains called

Nico

one of the amazing temples I’ve ever

visited when I

and

you so of course there is this there is

this kind of Shinto multiplicitousness

to what’s going on there but there

the fundamental symbol of the of the of

the absolute for them uh in this Tempo

at least was

a lightning bolt wow there was actually

a tree that had been that had been hit

by lightning somewhat a century before

or something because it’s you know now

tucked away in some corner of the temple

grounds but but you know their notion of

divinity had been so

abstracted again of sort of

anthropomorphic humanistic content that

it was just this stroke you know just

this kind of yeah

um and and I thought that was a an

amazing thing

really almost how it first appears

though isn’t it to the Greeks too is

this the struckness of what’s given of

the demon I suppose because it seems to

me that what you saw there

are those Sim those symbols that are

revealed by manifestation itself

and then we then end up

anthropomorphizing them later but I

think that’s a good place to to um start

to wind it up is there anything you wore

you wanted to comment on the political

situation for everyone watching I’ve

done my best here there’s so much that

Nick knows and so much we could go into

um and everyone’s not going to get what

they wanted out of listening to this

um I’ve basically had to follow my own

interest um it’s just they’re just so

the subjects are so complicated and

interesting so I did my best to go the

different in the different areas that

people might want to but yeah did you

want to comment quickly on the anything

else nothing there’s nothing uh pressing

actually on this and in fact you know I

don’t think

uh beyond what

what we’ve talked about I really don’t

feel I have some particularly insightful

contribution to me I mean I I I I I I

think

uh

modern contemporary politics they’ve

seen with the right sort of Detachment

and the right sense of just kind of

historical Destinies extremely

entertaining at the moment but in terms

of like concrete concrete prophecies

about the precise twists and turns of

the next few years I am groping as much

as

anyone else all right Nick well it’s

been a real pleasure and I again thanks

so much for coming I think people will

really like that it’s been very

insightful for me I have to watch back

through it again uh to to especially on

all the stuff we were talking about with

high position we’ll bring that to a

close everyone

uh God bless you uh uh and uh God uh

save the overking as I say

and okay well I’ve I’ve really enjoyed

this Scott so thanks so much for uh

setting it up