Vives de Europae Dissidiis Et Bello Turcico

De Europae dissidiis et bello Turcico
(1) Introduction of characters. Waves of souls, victims of European wars, are

swamping the underworld.
(2–18) Busybody notes discord at every level of Christian society. He chroni-
cles wars from the 1430’s to the present moment: Alfonso’s seizure of Naples;
Charles VIII’s and Louis XII’s campaigns in Italy; Turkish conquests on the
Black Sea shore; papal alliances against Venice, then France; English defeat
of the Scots; succession and rivalry of Francis I and Charles V, leading to
Francis’s capture and eventual release; wars over Navarre and Burgundy;
revulsion at Spanish soldiers’ cruelty; repeated devastation of Milan; Turk-
ish capture of Rhodes and Belgrade, and destruction of Hungary’s army and
death of its king.
(19–28) Reflections among Tiresias, Minos, and Busybody on the futility and
stupidity of the wars; rampant passions; the shame of Christians aiding Turk-
ish expansion and thinking Turkish rule would be an improvement; and
horrifying Turkish weapons. Tiresias rejects Busybody’s claim that Turkish
guarantees will confer power on Christians who ally with them.
(29–33) Transition to justifications for war generally. Flatterer defends it as a
noble royal pastime, citing traditional wisdom; Tiresias rejects such ‘wis-
dom.’
(34–44) Scipio’s harangue. He urges European unity followed by an all-out cam-
paign of aggression against the Ottoman Empire. Loot from many lands will
be massive. Turkish soldiers, the Sultan’s best, once kidnapped as Chris-
tian children into service, will side with the invaders. Sheer size of Turkish
forces does not matter; success does not depend on numbers. Recent Turkish
victories are inconsequential. Congenital martial inferiority of eastern peo-
ples will tell. Victory would not be small or result in squabbles, treaties, and
retreats, as happens with intra-European wars, but immense and decisive.
Glory to be reaped will be colossal.
(45–47) Tiresias’s advice: Let the Christians take refuge in Christ and lay aside
wars and hatreds. Let Charles and Francis cease their ruinous competition,
with Henry’s concurrence. Let them fortify Germany, or face the prospect of
escape to the New World.
(48) Conclusion: uncertainty over what will happen.
Cr, fols. xxiiir–xlivr; W, pp. 240–272; B II, 947–959; V VI, 452–481.
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via John Gibbons
Ioannis Ludovici Vivis De Europae dissidiis et bello Turcico,
Dialogus.
MINOS. TIRESIAS. BASILIUS COLAX. POLYPRAGMON. SCIPIO. VMBRAE.

1 MIN. Possesne nobis, Tiresia, dicere quemadmodum sese res hominum
apud superos habeant? Nam animae huc decidunt tam densae quam 5
vel grando vehementi aliquo turbine excussa vel folia flante per
autumnum Borea.
TIR. Quin tu potius aliquem ex eis qui huc venerunt percontaris, hominem
negotiatorem, aut versatum in principum comitatu?
MIN. Non male mones, per Ditem. Heus umbrae, quaenam vestrum bene 10
atque ordine callet res humanas quas modo reliquit?
VMB. Hae duae, o Minos, quarum altera negotiata est Venetiis, Londini,
Antuerpiae, Romae, Neapoli, Methymnae, in Chio, Alexandriae;
altera vixit in Regia Hispana, Gallica, Britannica, Romana, functa mul-
tis et diuturnis legationibus. 15
MIN. Accede propius. Tu, quae adhuc videris aurum esurire, quis vocabare
apud superos?
VMB. Polypragmon.
MIN. Et te, Epicuri de grege porce, quo tandem pulchro nomine compella-
bimus? 20
VMB. Multis, o Minos, et praeclaris; nam sum multis gentibus et familiis
prognatus, omniumque gero nomina ne quid de nobilitate detraha-
tur, tum quod unaquaeque familia non cedit alii cuiquam opibus,
dignitate, rebus gestis.
MIN. Satis es praemiatus: narra tandem. 25
VMB. Basilius, Gnato, Colax, Fucus, Tinea palatina, Demovorus; et materno
genere attingo Midam regem.
2 MIN. Et haec tua laus praecipua. Mirum est unum sufficere tot baiulandis
nominibus. Sed esto pro illis omnibus Colax, nam sic fiet verborum
compendium. Dic nobis: quo in statu sunt res hominum? 30
BAS. Consueto.
MIN. Unde ergo tam crebrae ad nos animae?
BAS. Nescio plane; consumuntur morbis, et est non nihil belli.
MIN. Qui gerunt bellum?
3 umbrae W, B, V: deest in Cr 10 quaenam vestrum W, B, V: quae vestrum Cr 13 Methymnae

V: Medimnae W, Cr, B 19 Epicuri de grege W, B, V: Epicure de grege Cr

via John Gibbons
Juan Luis Vives: Dialogue on Conflicts in Europe and the
Turkish War.
Minos. Tiresias. Basilius Colax (Royal Flatterer).1 Polypragmon (Busybody).

Scipio. Shades.
MIN. Can you perhaps inform us, Tiresias, what’s happening among the 1
people in the upper world? Just look how souls are raining down here
thick as hail driven by a strong gale, or autumn leaves at the mercy of
the north wind!
TIR. Why not ask one of these recent arrivals—an active businessman, or
a veteran of princely entourage?
MIN. Not bad advice, by Hades. Hey, you shades! Which of you has a com-
plete, overall understanding of the human affairs he just left?
SH. These two, Minos. One has done business in Venice, London, Ant-
werp, Rome, Naples, Methymna, on Chios, and Alexandria; the other
has lived at the Spanish, French, English, and Roman courts, complet-
ing numerous missions day in and day out.
MIN. Come closer. You, who look as if you are hungry for gold: what did
they call you among the living?
SH. Busybody.
MIN. And you, pig from Epicurus’s herd, tell us what choice name we shall
use to address you?
SH. A string of them, O Minos, and distinguished they are. I am descended
from many clans and families. I bear the names of all of them so I
won’t lose any of my nobility; in addition, no single family yields to
any other of them in wealth, dignity, or accomplishments.
MIN. That’s enough of a preamble. Go on and tell me.
SH. Royal, Scrounger, Flatterer, Smoky, Palace Maggot, People-Eater; and
I’m descended from King Midas on my mother’s side.
MIN. The renown you claim is exceptional. It’s a marvel that one man is 2
strong enough to manage all those weighty names. But in lieu of the
lot, let’s call you Flatterer; that will sum them all up. Tell us: what’s the
state of human affairs?
BAS. The usual.
MIN. Then why this influx of souls?
BAS. I really don’t know. They’re ravaged by disease, and there’s some war
going on.
MIN. Who’s at war?
1 See the caution against court flatterers in the Second Letter to Henry above, 5.

via John Gibbons
92 J.L. Vives
BAS. Quale hominis prudentissimi quaesitum! Qui gererent? Principes et

populi.
MIN. Mirum ni canes et feles.
BAS. Ridiculum.
TIR. Scilicet quia homines malitia illos et crudelitate superant. 5
MIN. Qui principum? Et quo modo?
BAS. Ne nimium perconteris, nam non est temere de principibus loquen-
dum. Omnes sunt probi viri.
MIN. Atqui pessime interdum vivunt.
BAS. Atqui optimi sunt, etsi pessime vivant. 10
MIN. Qui fieri hoc potest?
BAS. Ut audis, sic res habet.
MIN. Ipsis ergo licet malefacere, nemini licet maledicere?
BAS. Vin tu Minos tantum cuilibet licere quantum regi? De quo est illud:
Quod libet, licet. 15
MIN. Quid ita?
BAS. Quia aurum possident.
MIN. Plurimum ergo licebit arcis. Sed quid iuvat, quando non pecuniam
regunt reges sed ipsos pecunia? Verum tibi, ut video, Aesculapio est
opus qui cerebrum curet; itaque mane paulisper, nam ad eum mitte- 20
mus te.
3 Dic tu interea Polypragmon. Tu Tiresia, rogo ne gravere quae iste
dicat attendere, et corrigere si quid peccarit. Age effare: quid fit apud
superos?
POL. Estur, o Minos, potatur affatim, scortantur multi, adulterantur multi, 25
luditur alea, deliciantur divites, esuriunt inopes. Qui non habet dat;
qui habet accipit. Emitur quam fieri potest vilissimo, venditur quam
potest carissimo. Corrumpuntur merces; conturbatur, rumpitur fides.
MIN. Atqui nihil nominatur aut celebratur magis hoc tempore quam fides.
POL. Sic sperant se illam consolaturos si laudent quam laedunt. 30
MIN. Quid agunt principes? Quid Christiani? Quid Turca?
POL. Propemodum eadem ista, et bellum ubique, discordiae, odia.

via John Gibbons
de europae dissidiis et bello turcico 93
BAS. What a question, coming from one so clever! Who’s at war? Why,
princes and peoples!
MIN. I’m surprised it’s not dogs and cats.
BAS. Nice joke.
TIR. Well, that’s because humans outdo them in malice and cruelty.
MIN. What princes? And how?
BAS. Don’t ask too many questions; one shouldn’t speak rashly of princes.
They’re all upstanding men.
MIN. But meantime their lives are despicable.
BAS. Yet they are excellent men, even if their lives are despicable.
MIN. How can that be?
BAS. It’s just as I said.
MIN. So they are free to do ill, and no one is free to speak ill of it?
BAS. Well, Minos, do you want everything that’s lawful for the king to be
lawful for everybody? There’s a saying about that: ‘If it pleases you,
it’s allowed.’2
MIN. Why so?
BAS. Because they have the gold.
MIN. A great deal will be allowable to the treasuries. But what good is it
when the kings don’t own the money but the money owns the kings?
Now, though, I think you need Aesculapius to repair your brain; so
wait a bit and we will send you to him.
Say something in the meantime, Busybody. Tiresias, I bid you: I 3
hope you don’t mind listening to what he says, and correct him if he
slips up.—All right, tell us: what’s going on up there?
POL. They eat, Minos, and drink their fill; many go whoring, many cheat
on their wives, play dice; the rich live it up, the poor go hungry. Those
who have nothing, give; those who have, take. Goods are bought for
the cheapest possible price and sold for the highest. Merchandise is
tainted, brawls are rampant, faith is violated.
MIN. But people claim or honor nothing nowadays more than faith.
POL. Yes: they hope they will win faith over if they honor her while they
injure her.
MIN. What do the rulers do? How about the Christians? And the Turk?
POL. Practically the same things; war, discord, and hate are everywhere.
2 Fantazzi notes Inferno, canto 5, line 56. Dante and Virgil had just met Minos in this sec-
ond circle and as they walk they meet Queen Semiramis, of whom Virgil says ‘che libito fe’
lecito in sua legge.’

via John Gibbons
94 J.L. Vives
MIN. Non inter Christianos puto. Nam his nihil commendavit magis vel
accuratius Doctor ille caelestis sapientiae quam benevolentiam mu-
tuam, et ea voluit nota insigniri suos.
4 PO. At nulla aetate, nulla natione tanta fuerunt odia quanta nunc inter
eos. Olim odia erant inter gentes Asiae atque Europae, quod mari 5
viderentur diremptae, aut inter duo ingentia imperia, velut Lacedae-
monios et Athenienses, Carthaginienses et Romanos, aut inter eos
qui de finibus contendebant. Nunc inter provincias odium publicum
et irreconciliabile, quod nullis officiis placari, nullis beneficiis tolli et
restingui queat. Italus Transalpinos omnes tamquam barbaros fasti- 10
dit atque odit. Gallus ad Britanni nomen despuit. Hic non admo-
dum caros habet Scotos et Gallos. Inter Gallos et Hispanos memoria
nostra bella gesta non citra ingentes clades; unde relicta sunt magna
in eorum pectoribus inimicitiarum semina. Utinam his limitibus con-
tenta esset discordia! Serpit ad intima, civitates inter se inimicae in 15
eadem dicione, ob aquulam, ob agellum, quod alia intervertit alius
plus satis opulentae nonnulla commoda. In eadem civitate factio-
nes: Columnenses, Orsini Romae; Adorni et Fragosi Genuae; Arago-
nenses et Andegavenses Neapoli; Velasci et Manrici in Hispania; in
quas ruunt sine mente, sine iudicio. Pater filiis velut per manus tradit 20
simultates; nascuntur hostes, non fiunt.
5 Etiam regiones urbis afferunt discordias. Frater in hoc natus vico
inimicus est fratri nato alibi, et contra eum, si sit opus, stet in acie.
Profani homines infensi initiatis, plebes optimatibus. Subditi ei qui
praeest male volunt; hic illos non amat. In scholis et philosophia, 25
hoc est in domicilio moderationis ac modestiae, pacis, quietis, tran-
quillitatis, patientiae, simultates; et quidem capitales inter studiosos
Latinae ac Graecae linguae et studiosos dialecticae ac philosophiae,
inter eos qui gaudent altercantium circulis et eos qui quietis magis
studiis delectantur. Quid dicam inter deditos disciplinae ac studiis 30
eisdem, plagae, caedes ob colores quosdam? Tum sectae: alii Tho-

via John Gibbons
MIN. Among the Christians, I think not; for the heavenly teacher of wisdom
commended nothing to these people more emphatically or specifi-
cally than mutual benevolence; he wanted them to be identified by
that sign.3
POL. But at no time, in no nation, have there been hatreds as intense as 4
right now among them. Once, hatreds were between the lands of
Asia and Europe because they were obviously separated by the sea; or
between two major empires, as with the Spartans and the Athenians
or the Romans and Carthaginians; or between those who were quar-
reling over boundaries. Now it’s public and irreconcilable animosity
between provinces, which can be placated by no official interven-
tion or removed or suppressed by any benefit. The Italian loathes
and hates all Transalpines as barbarians. The Frenchman spits on the
name of the Englishman, who in turn has little affection for Scots
and French. Within our memory wars have raged between French
and Spaniards, attended by staggering disasters from which power-
ful seeds of hostility were left in the hearts of the combatants. If only
the discord were contained within these limits! It steals deep within:
cities at odds in the same jurisdiction over a little water or field, or
because one party has swindled a more opulent rival out of some
advantage or other. Factions in the same city: the Colonna and Orsini
in Rome; the Adorni and Fragosi in Genoa; the Aragonese and the
Angevins in Naples; the Velasco and Manrique in Spain. They collide
senselessly, without forethought. Father passes on his grudges to chil-
dren as if by hand; enemies are born, not made.
Even regions of a city keep feuds alive. A brother born on this 5
street is the enemy of his brother who was born on another, and if
necessary, faces him in battle. Laity are bitterly hostile toward reli-
gious, plebeians toward the aristocracy. Subjects harbor ill will toward
their superior, who in turn has no love for them. In the schools and
the philosophical sects, that is, in the home of moderation, modesty,
peace, quiet, tranquility, patience, there are contentions. They even
turn deadly between specialists in the Greek and Latin languages and
specialists in dialectic and philosophy, between those who enjoy the
crowds of competitors and those who prefer to take pleasure in quiet
study. How shall I describe the friction among those dedicated to the
same discipline or studies—the beatings, the homicides over differ-
3 See Vulg. John 13, 34–35.

via John Gibbons
96 J.L. Vives
mae, alii Scoti, alii Ocham; nam inter Lutheranos et Antilutheranos

minus miror esse tanta odia. Illud magis dolet, alteros sic esse in alte-
ros animatos ut perditos et excisos velint, non emendatos. Certe sic
inter se depugnant ut hoc videantur solum agere. Nec inter Luthera-
nos ipsos est amor et concordia, cum tamen nihil in ore habeant aliud 5
quam fidem, evangelium, caritatem. Iam inter professos summam
quandam caritatem, quique idcirco fratres nominantur, quae dissi-
dia! Quam interdum cruenta! Monachus in mendicantem, Minorita
adversus Dominicanum, Minorita claustralis in Observantem. Quae
expulsiones, convicia, minae, insectatio! 10
MIN. Quid malum, tot dissidia, tot odia, tot haereses! Nunc non miror tam
frequens iam haereseos crimen iactari, cum omnia sint haereseos
plena.
6 POL. Non omnia audisti.
MIN. Quaeso ne narra plura. 15
TIR. Dic uno verbo, hostem esse quemque sibi ipsi, nempe malum malo.
Nam iustitia terris excedens amorem secum et benevolentiam in cae-
lum tulit; iniquitati odium et dissidia comites remanserunt.
MIN. De bellis iam loquere. Nam pulchre videris mihi tenere humana illa.
POL. Nihil mirum. Nam in iis locis atque inter eos sum homines versatus 20
ubi nihil ignoratur quid toto agatur in orbe, ut inquit ille. Accuratius
nos ista inquirimus, exigui lucri causa, quam illi ipsi quorum vita et
fortunae in hoc vertuntur. Quin et a nobis principes ipsi si quid sit
novi rogant.
TIR. Videlicet sic exacuit humanas mentes nummi spes. 25
POL. Tum etiam de libris nonnulla hausi, relaxandi animi gratia. Ergo
fuit Alphonsus quidam Rex Aragonum (nam hinc exordiendum cen-
seo) qui a Ioanna Neapolis Regina adoptatus, magna classe et copiis
Neapolim profectus, captus primum a Genuensibus. Hinc a Philippo
21 ubi nihil ignoratur quid toto agatur in orbe, ut inquit ille W, Cr, B: ubi nihil ignoratur ut
inquit ille ‘quid toto agatur in orbe’ V 27 hinc exordiendum W, B, V: hinc exhordiendum Cr
29 profectus, captus primum W, Cr: profectus, et captus primum B, V

via John Gibbons
ences in style? Then there are the sects: Some for Thomas, others
for Scotus, still others for Ockham. I am less surprised by the burn-
ing hatred between Lutherans and anti-Lutherans. What makes me
sadder is that people are so angry at their rivals that they want them
ruined and cut off, not reformed. They quarrel with one another so
much that it seems that this is the only thing they do. Not even among
the Lutherans themselves is there love and harmony, even though
all they talk about is faith, gospel, and charity. Among those who
boast of the epitome of charity, and who on that account are called
brothers, what quarrels! Sometimes bloody! Monk against mendi-
cant, Minorite against Dominican, cloistered Minorite against Obser-
vant. What expulsions, uproars, menaces, attacks!
MIN. What malice, so many dissensions, such hatred, so many heresies! It
no longer surprises me how often the charge of heresy is flung, for
everything is full of heresy.
POL. You haven’t heard it all. 6
MIN. Oh please. Tell me no more.
TIR. Say it in one word: each is his own enemy, villain against villain.
For justice has departed from the earth, taking love and goodwill
with her.4 Hate and conflict, companions of iniquity, have stayed
behind.
MIN. Now tell us about the wars. It seems you have a marvelous grasp of
those human affairs.
POL. It’s not surprising, since I traveled around those places and among
people where nothing’s unknown that’s going on anywhere in the
world, as that famous man5 said.
I have studied those affairs more closely in pursuit of a little profit
than the very people whose life and fortune depend on them. Why,
princes themselves ask me if there’s any news.
TIR. See how hope for money has sharpened human minds.
POL. I’ve also picked up things from reading to relax my mind. Well, there
was a certain king of the Aragonese, Alfonso (I think this is the place
to start), who, adopted by Joanna Queen of Naples, set out for that
city with a great fleet and an army, but was captured first by the
Genoese. Honorably released and generously supported by Philip the
4 Human criminality drove Astraea, the virgin goddess of innocence or justice, from earth;
she was the last of the gods to leave mankind. (Aratus, Phaenomena 97–128; Ovid, Meta-
morphoses 1,149–150.)
5 See Juvenal 6, 402.

via John Gibbons
98 J.L. Vives
Mediolanensi duce honorifice dimissus et liberaliter adiutus, cepit

regnum illud diu obsessum, expulso Renato Andegavensi, quem ipsa
eadem Ioanna postmodum adoptarat inconstantia muliebri.
TIR. Quid fecissent nati qui adoptati sic insaniebant?
POL. Turbatur eo motu Italia dum novus rex suspensos et sollicitos tenet 5
Italiae populos, multis bello lacessitis. Turca Byzantium expugnat, et
mox per occasionem Trapezuntem cum universa Ponti ora cui iam
olim imminebat, nec subveniri ex Italia Christianis potuit.
7 Nec reliqui occidentis res satis quietae satisque pacatae per id
erant temporis. Francis enim Burgundi et Britanni negotium facesse- 10
bant. Renatus, Ioanni filio superstes, Carolum fratris sui filium here-
dem scripsit. Hic, cum liberos nullos genuisset, Ludovico XI Gallo-
rum regi domum cum Neapolitani regni iure, hoc est belli materia
fecundissima, testamento reliquit. Sed hic natura sua semper ab Ita-
lia abhorruit. 15
12–13 Ludovico XI Gallorum regi scr. Ludovico II Gallorum regi W, Cr: Ludovico Gallorum
regi B, V

via John Gibbons
Duke of Milan, he took Naples after a long siege, expelling René of

Anjou, whom the very same Joanna, with womanly inconstancy, had
adopted at a later time.6
TIR. What were the sons to do who, after being adopted in this way, were
acting so madly?7
POL. Italy was in turmoil over this campaign while the new king held the
peoples of the peninsula in suspense and apprehension; many had
been damaged by the war. The Turk took Byzantium, and soon by
chance Trebizond, along with the entire shore of the Black Sea which
he had long menaced; no aid could be sent to the Christians from
Italy.8
Nor were matters in the remainder of the West very quiet or peace- 7
ful during that time. The Burgundians and the English were making
trouble for the French.9 René, who outlived his son John, adopted
Charles, his brother’s son, as his heir. Charles, without issue, willed to
the French king Louis XI his estate along with the entitlement to rule
Naples: in other words, bountiful material for war. But Louis always
instinctively shied away from Italy.10
6 Joanna II of the House of Anjou (1373–1435), daughter of Charles III, ruled Naples from
1414 until her death. She first chose, then rejected twice over Alfonso V ‘The Magnani-
mous’ of Aragon (1396–1458) as her successor. Alfonso, attacking Naples after Joanna’s
death, was defeated by a Genoese fleet, captured, and detained in Milan. There he won
over the ruling Duke Filippo Maria Visconti, and with his support made a successful
return to Naples in 1442, drove out Joanna’s successor René of Anjou, and ruled Naples
until his death.
7 Joanna had a reputation for frequent acceptance and abandonment of partners in
power.
8 Constantinople fell to the Sultan Mehmed II in 1453. The Byzantine Black Sea enclave
of Trebizond fell in 1461.
9 Burgundy achieved independence most securely between 1420 and 1475, nearing on
occasion the destruction of her French enemy with the aid of England. In 1475, Charles
the Bold of Burgundy plotted, with Edward IV of England, the military overthrow of
Louis XI of France. The plan fell through when Charles delayed in joining Edward’s
forces. Louis, taking advantage of the mistake, bought off Edward with a generous
agreement.
10 Vives’s main point is that putative entitlement to rule Naples passed from René to
Charles IV Duke of Anjou to the French king Louis XI (Vives’s Louis II). Louis pursued
diplomacy in Italy, particularly on behalf of the triple alliance of Milan, Venice, and
Florence against the Papacy and Naples. But his real goal was to achieve ‘the pacifica-
tion of the peninsula under his benevolent auspices’ (Kendall, 1971:338). It was left to
his son and successor Charles VIII to embark on a full-scale invasion of Italy in 1494 to
vindicate the French claim to Naples. See Kendall 1971:333–342.

via John Gibbons
100 J.L. Vives
TIR. Nescio in aliis quam prudens, in hoc certe non modo sapientissimus
sed vates quoque.
POL. Ita Neapolitana illa causa tantisper iacuit ingenti Galliae felicitate,
sed quae diuturna non fuit. Carolus Rex octavus, administrationem
nactus, nihil antiquius duxit aut pulchrius quam regnum illud vi 5
atque armis repetere et amplissimae alioqui dicioni suae adiungere.
Coegit ingentes copias, concussit trepidatione tantae expeditionis
Gallias, Italiam, Hispaniam.
MIN. Memini illius. Tale animalculum, tam pusillum, tam deforme tantos
exciebat motus, et quidem tam brevi periturum! 10
POL. Hoc ipse nec sciebat neque metuebat. Venerat in regnum florentis-
simum iuvenis, carus atque exspectatus suis: nobilitati praesertim
defessae perpetienda improbitate patris atque odio: allexerat undi-
que milites largitate sua et spe opulentae praedae.
TIR. Hoc est vere regnare, avitum regnum perdere ut novum quaeras. Sic 15
sentit populus regem habere se.
8 POL. Turca interea, discordiis nostris potens, effudit se latius; cepit pul-
cherrimam et nobilissimam Europae partem: Graeciam, Macedo-
niam, Euboeam, insulas Aegaei maris. Dum Christiani de pugno ter-
rae inter se decertant, ille eis amplissimam dicionem ademit, multa 20
molientibus nostris hominibus et subinde coeuntibus in consilium ut
Turcae obviam iretur; sed in irritum omnia.
TIR. Citius de communi salute lupi cum agnis deliberent et statuant quam
Christiani. Qui fiet umquam aliter, ubi cum de communi et publica re
deliberatur, nemo ad hanc respicit, quisque ad suam privatam? 25
18 Europae partem coni. Tournoy: Euboeae partem W, Cr, B, V

via John Gibbons
TIR. I don’t know how prudent he was in other matters, but in this he was
definitely not only very wise but even a prophet.
POL. So the Neapolitan case lay dormant in the meantime, much to the
benefit of France, but not permanently. King Charles VIII, taking the
throne, thought no enterprise was more longstanding or attractive
than the recovery of Naples by force and its addition to his already
wide realm. He marshaled a huge army and alarmed the Gallic lands,
Italy, and Spain with dread of this mighty expedition.
MIN. I remember him! Such a little creature, so tiny, so misshapen, stirred
up all that commotion, and yet doomed to die so soon!11
POL. He neither knew nor feared this. He had come as a youth into a flour-
ishing kingdom, beloved and anticipated by his subjects, especially
by the nobility; they were exhausted from putting up with his father’s
crooked ways and hatefulness.12 He had won over soldiers from every-
where by largesse and hopes of rich booty.
TIR. Now this is real kingship: wrecking your inherited realm to seek
another one. That’s what the people think having a king is all about.
POL. Meanwhile the Turk, made powerful by our discords, expanded fur- 8
ther. He took the loveliest and noblest part of Europe: Greece, Mace-
donia, Euboea, and the islands of the Aegean Sea. While Christians
were squabbling with each other over a fistful of earth, he grabbed
a vast realm from them. Our men put together numerous plans and
immediately assembled in council to take on the Turk, but it all went
nowhere.13
TIR. Sooner will wolves and lambs deliberate and make rules about com-
mon security than will Christians. How will it ever be otherwise, when
every time discussions are held about the common and public wel-
fare, no one pays attention to it and everyone defends his private
interest?
11 A Venetian diplomat described Charles VIII in part as “‘twenty-two years old, small and
ill-formed in person, with an ugly face, large lustreless eyes, which seem to be short-
sighted, an enormous aquiline nose, and thick lips, which are continually parted.’”
(Bridge 1934: n.p.) Charles died in 1498.
12 Louis XI, dubbed ‘the Universal Spider’, was known for his political scheming. Despite
his good qualities, says Kendall, ‘less than a generation after his death … Louis was
described as drinking infants’ blood in his last illness, poisoning his brother, delight-
ing in the screams of tortured victims.’ (Kendall 1971:28.)
13 Pope Nicholas V had a hand in the Peace of Lodi (ratified 1455) among Venice, Milan,
Florence, and Naples to prepare for the crusade which he and his successors vainly
preached after the fall of Constantinople.

via John Gibbons
102 J.L. Vives
POL. Aperuit Alpes Carolus.

TIR. Hoc est, patefecit aditum spoliationibus, cladibus, miseriae Galliae.
POL. Transiit in Italiam cum maximis opibus, sed quas omnes effudit; ter-
ruit Italiam et urbem, expugnat regnum. Redit in Galliam non sine
periculo, nam dimicandum ei fuit in Insubria. Quantus apparatus tam 5
brevi comoediae! Paucis post diebus regnum illud a Gallis desciscit et
Rex ipse moritur.
TIR. Hic exitus cuiusque fabulae, et nemo alienis exemplis admonetur,
nemo fit cautior.
POL. Succedit Ludovicus, qui non modo ius Neapolitanum repeteret, sed 10
Mediolanense quoque.
TIR. Scilicet ut animosus aleator sponsione geminata, in apertius discri-
men se et sua adduceret.
9 POL. Baiazetes Turca, mortuo apud nos fratre eius, quem veneno sublatum
esse fama est, maxima eorum qui id fecerunt dementia, gaudere et 15
agere quod rusticum illum ferunt in Apologis filios suos docuisse, ut
sigillatim virgas frangerent quas simul nequivissent: arripere quam-

via John Gibbons
POL. Charles crossed the Alps.

TIR. You mean he opened the road to plunder, calamity, and misery for
France.
POL. He passed into Italy with massive resources and squandered them
all. He terrified Italy and Rome and seized Naples.14 He returned to
France, not without peril, for he had to fight in Insubria.15 What huge
preparations for such a brief comedy! A few days later that area split
off from France and the King himself died.16
TIR. This is how every story ends. Nobody profits by others’ examples;
nobody gets more cautious.
POL. His successor was Louis, who not only sought to retrieve rights over
Naples, but wanted Milan as well.17
TIR. That is, like an eager gambler he doubled his bet, opening himself and
his stake to greater risk.
POL. Baiazetes the Turk, after his brother’s death18 in our country—by poi- 9
son, as it was rumored, and at the height of madness among the
perpetrators—celebrated and did what they say the farmer taught his
sons to do in the fable: break the sticks one by one that they had failed
to break in a bundle.19 He seized whatever prey he could, then rested
14 After reaching Rome and receiving safe passage south from Pope Alexander VI, Charles
entered a terrified Naples bloodlessly early in 1495, and headed back north after leaving
a French viceroy. The latter died in an epidemic and Ferrantino II, son of the abdicated
Alfonso II, resumed the kingship of the city.
15 In March 1495 King Ferdinand of Spain organized the League of Venice (Pope Alexan-
der VI, Emperor Maximilian I, Venice, Milan) against the French. The parties battled in
July at Fornovo in northern Italy (hence Vives’s ‘Insubria’), after which Charles with-
drew to Lombardy.
16 In October 1495 the Treaty of Vercelli confirmed Lodovico il Moro as Duke of Milan
(apparently ‘that area’ to which Vives refers). Lodovico later repudiated the treaty.
Charles VIII actually died in April 1498.
17 Louis XII, who asserted his rights over Milan as the grandson of Valentina Visconti,
daughter of the first Duke of the duchy.
18 When Sultan Bayezid II succeeded to the sultanate after the death of Mehmed II (1481),
he fought off his brother Jem for power. After fleeing to Mamluk Egypt, Jem lived in cap-
tivity as a potential threat to Bayezid, first with the Knights of Saint John on Rhodes,
next in France, then at the papal court (under Innocent VIII and later Alexander VI),
and finally back with Charles VIII in France in early 1495, where he died a month later.
Stories that he was poisoned are regarded as doubtful.
19 In the fable, attributed to Aesop and preserved in variations, a father tests his sons by
asking them to break a bundle of sticks. When they fail, he undoes the bundle and
snaps the sticks one by one.

via John Gibbons
104 J.L. Vives
cumque expetisset praedam, et paulisper conquiescere dum eam

communit, ac pro partibus suis confirmat ne eripi possit facile.
MIN. Atqui callidos homines audieram esse vos.
POL. Eramus: sed odia, voluptates, cupidines pravae dementarunt nos.
Ludovicus Rex Mediolanum recipit a Ludovico Sfortia, et eum cap- 5
tivum Gallis ostendit.
TIR. Magnum est, hominem victum et vinctum quo velis ducere et quibus
velis ostendere.
POL. Adiecit ad Neapolim animum, nec adversata est sors: cepit eam. Sed
cum Fernandus Hispaniae Rex, Ioannis Alphonsi fratris filius, videret 10
opulentissimum regnum velut praedam relictam in medio fortunae
belli, misit eo magnam classem, primum hoc praetextu, suppetias se
sorori suae et eius filiae ferre, quae duobus Neapolitanis regibus nup-
serant, Fernando et Fernandulo. Pugnatum est aliquoties, et Gallus
ubi parem suum sensit, egit de praeda partiunda. Non recusavit in 15
praesens condicionem Fernandus.
TIR. Vafer! Maluit dimidium tollere quam periclitari de toto.
10 POL. Sed nulla fides regni sociis. Utriusque milites alteri ab alteris lacessiti,
ut est genus hominum insolens, vel odio quietis atque otii, cuius sunt
impatientes, tamquam sterilis sibi atque infrugiferi, ruperunt foedera, 20
et gravi bello de tota possessione certatum est. Collatis signis aliquo-
ties dimicatum, magna utriusque gentis strage, sed quod res indicat,
14 Fernando et Fernandulo W, B, V: Alphonso et Frederico Cr 17 periclitari de toto W, B, V:

periclitati de toto Cr

via John Gibbons
a bit while safeguarding it, and stabilized it in support of his partisans

so it could not easily be wrested from him.20
MIN. And I had heard that you people were smart!
POL. We were: but depraved hatreds, pleasures, and desires left us de-
mented. King Louis took Milan from Lodovico Sforza and displayed
him to the French as a captive.
TIR. A mighty feat, leading a beaten and bound man wherever you wish
and exhibiting him to whomever you wish.21
POL. He turned his attention to Naples, and luck was with him: he cap-
tured it. But when Ferdinand, King of Spain, son of Juan the brother
of Alfonso, saw this prosperous kingdom left like plunder amid the
fortunes of war, he dispatched a large fleet, at first pretending to bring
aid to his sister and her daughter, who had married the two Neapoli-
tan kings, Ferdinand and Fernandulus.22 They did some fighting, and
when the Frenchman perceived Ferdinand was his equal, he parleyed
about splitting the spoils. Ferdinand did not refuse, under the circum-
stances of the moment.23
TIR. What a trickster! He would rather take half than risk losing the whole.
POL. But there’s no trust among princely allies. Both kings’ soldiers, baited 10
by each other, true to the insolent nature of men, or fed up with peace
and quiet for which they had no patience since it was unproductive
and profitless for them, broke the truce; they commenced a deadly
battle for sole possession. The standards collided; they had a few skir-
mishes, with heavy losses on both sides but worse in the end for the
20 Bayezid’s western offensives upon his succession were indeed piecemeal, consisting
of campaigns and raids along the Ottoman-European frontier; but ‘as long as Jem was
alive, the Ottoman military machine was never irretrievably engaged in a great war.’
(NCMH 1:398.)
21 In April 1500. The captive Lodovico, though denied a meeting with Louis XII, ‘appears
to have been otherwise honorably treated’ despite lurid stories to the contrary. (Ady
1907:183–184.)
22 Joanna of Aragon, Ferdinand’s sister, married Ferrante I, the King of Naples (ruled
1458–1494). Her daughter Joanna of Naples was the bride and soon after the widow of
King Ferrante II (ruled 1495–1496). Though Joanna the Elder was active in the govern-
ment of Naples, her role in Ferdinand and Louis’ pact (see the following footnote) is
uncertain. (http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giovanna d’aragona‑regina‑di‑napoli
_(Dizionario biografico)/)
23 The division of the Kingdom of Naples between Ferdinand and Louis XII by the Treaty
of Granada in 1500 was actually arranged in advance of the conquest of the city. The
French marched into Naples; Federigo, the king, who had been unaware of Ferdinand’s
bargain, gave up and was ultimately transported to France.

via John Gibbons
106 J.L. Vives
Gallorum maiore. Pulsi sunt regno. Pauci qui ex conflictibus supere-

rant receperunt se Mediolanum, quod adhuc Gallorum imperio tene-
batur.
TIR. Hui cenam pessimam, magno comparatam! Mars molesta navis.
Quidquid edit vector, cogit revomere. 5
MIN. Confer in pauca.
POL. Non possum brevius. Succedit Iulius II Pontifex.
TIR. Oleum camino.
MIN. Cui secundus?
TIR. Gaio Caesari. 10
POL. Huic venit in mentem patrimonium Divi Petri vendicare. Itaque con-
dicione cum Gallis, Hispanis, Germanis facta, Venetos invasit. Detrac-
tae his non paucae plumae. Hinc visum est Italiam Transalpinis gen-
tibus, hoc est barbaris (sic enim ipsi vocant) purgare. Placuit a Gal-
lis exordiri, et in hoc abuti Hispanis armis, postmodum re cum ipsis 15
Hispanis futura.
TIR. Excommunicata Gallia toties et tam saeve ut mirer superesse eis com-
mune quicquam.
11 POL. Pugnatum ad Ravennam ingenti et cruento proelio. Galli quidem vic-
tores, sed ita accisi ut coacti sint Italia decedere. 20
TIR. Plane, ut sit proverbium vetus: Interierunt victores, fleverunt victi.
POL. Morte Iulii, Hispani liberati sunt bello: quod eos indubie manebat si
strenuo illi patrimonii Divi Petri defensori longior vita Petri beneficio
contigisset.
TIR. Numquam Petrus faciet rem. Alioqui hunc curasset servandum. 25
11–12 condicione cum Gallis W, B, V: coitione cum Gallis Cr

via John Gibbons
French, who were driven out of the kingdom.24 The few who survived
the battles retreated to Milan, which was still under French rule.
TIR. What a bad dinner, provided at great expense! Mars is an aggravating
vessel. Whatever the crew eats, he makes them throw it back up.
MIN. Be brief.
POL. I can’t be any briefer. Julius II succeeded to the papacy.25
TIR. Oil on the fire.
MIN. Who outdoes him?
TIR. Caius Caesar.26
POL. He took it in mind to avenge the patrimony of Saint Peter. So he made
an alliance with the French, Spanish, and Germans and invaded the
Venetians, from whom he plucked quite a few feathers.27 Next he
decided to purge Italy of Transalpine nations, or barbarians (that’s
what they call them).28 He chose to begin with the French, and squan-
der Spanish arms in the process; there was going to be a future enter-
prise with these same Spanish.
TIR. France was isolated so often and ruthlessly, it amazes me that any link
to them is left.29
POL. There was a massive and bloody battle at Ravenna. The French pre- 11
vailed, but with so many casualties that they were compelled to leave
Italy.
TIR. Clearly, just as the old proverb says: Death for the winners, tears for
the losers.
POL. When Julius died30 the Spanish were released from war, which un-
doubtedly would not have happened if, by Peter’s patronage, longer
life had been given to that defender of Saint Peter’s patrimony.
TIR. Peter will never do that. Otherwise he would have seen to Julius’s sur-
vival.
24 At the battle of the Garigliano, 1503–1504.

25 In 1503.
26 An allusion to Julius Caesar the Roman dictator.
27 The League of Cambrai (1508) defeated Venice (1510) and returned to Pope Julius’s con-
trol cities over whose possession he had quarreled with the Venetians.
28 Julius turned on France after getting much of what he wanted and gathered a ‘Holy
League’ with Spain, Venice, the Holy Roman Empire, England, and the Swiss, designed
to drive Louis XI and the French out of Italy. (NCMH 1:360.)
29 Calero 1992:58 n. 25 sees in this remark a note of sympathy by Vives for the French.
30 In early 1513.

via John Gibbons
108 J.L. Vives
POL. Bellum tamen quasi per manus successori est Leoni relictum. Is reges
Hispaniae et Britanniae magnis pollicitationibus ad bellum pellexit,
in quo Navarra fuit Fernandi praeda, et Scotorum Rex Iacobus in acie
ab Anglis caesus est.
TIR. Non omnes qui venantur feram occidunt, multi etiam pereunt; et 5
bono seniculo Fernando par erat aliquod dari laboris praemium.
POL. Atqui Iulius, ut Gallis dirarum et devotionum plenas naves miserat,
ita Fernando venias et faustas precationes, quot vel possent expeti.
TIR. Ad animam quidem haec, Navarra vero ad corpus. Si utrumque labo-
rat, iniquum est non utrumque mercedem auferre. 10
12 POL. Ex discordia confoederatorum pax nascitur. Ludovicus vita decedit,
et aliquanto mox Fernandus.
TIR. Nimirum vetula veterina iuveniliter volebant excurrere. Et Ludovi-
cus imprimis campum nactus perpulchrum, sed ungulae suae nimis
lamosum. 15
POL. Huic Franciscus successit gener, Fernando Carolus nepos ex filia.
Franciscus statim regni initio ingentibus copiis parat fugitivae illi Ita-
liae compedes iniicere.
TIR. Sed aureas, puto, et quae magis ad fugam sollicitent.
POL. Mediolanum ingenti proelio atque ambiguo ductu suo recipit. 20
13 vetula veterina W, Cr, B: vitula veterina V 14–15 nimis lamosum W, Cr, B: nimis limosum
V

via John Gibbons
POL. Still, the war was passed on as if by hand to Leo, his successor. With
promises Leo enticed the kings of Spain and England into a war in
which Navarre was the prize,31 and King James of Scotland was killed
in battle by the English.32
TIR. Not all who hunt kill their beast; many even perish. And it was fair for
good old King Ferdinand to receive some return for his labor.
POL. But whereas Julius had sent off ships full of curses and anathemas to
the French, on Ferdinand he bestowed indulgences and prayers for
his welfare, for whatever they could try to capture.
TIR. These blessings for his soul; Navarre, of course, for his body. If body
and soul both toil, it’s wrong for both not to carry away a reward.
POL. Out of the discord of allies peace is born. Louis died, and Ferdinand 12
a little later.33
TIR. Well: The old cart horses wanted to charge out as if they were young;
and Louis in particular found a magnificent field, but it was too
muddy34 for his hooves.
POL. Francis his son-in-law succeeded Louis; after Ferdinand came his
grandson Charles by Ferdinand’s daughter.35 Francis immediately
began his reign by marshaling a massive army to impose shackles on
the Italy that had escaped.
TIR. Gold shackles, I suppose, to better facilitate flight.
POL. He retook Milan in a mighty battle that under his direction was uncer-
tain.36
31 Calero 1992:59, n. 26 notes that ‘the incorporation [of Navarre into Ferdinand’s realm]
owed more to the sagacity of Ferdinand the Catholic than to a bequest by the Pope,
as Vives appears to insinuate.’ In 1512 Ferdinand of Aragon and Henry VIII, both ene-
mies of France, collaborated in an invasion of Navarre, which fell to the domina-
tion of Ferdinand. (Bard 1982:85, who makes no mention of a role played by Pope
Julius.) Louis XII was ‘facing an invasion in the north by Henry VIII and Maximilian’
(M&S 2012:122); Henry took territory and won a battle, while ‘the Swiss invaded Bur-
gundy.’
32 Battle of Flodden Field (1513), a devastating English victory over France’s ally, James IV
of Scotland, who died in battle. (Ackroyd 2012:12–13.)
33 Louis, 1515; Ferdinand, 1516.
34 Lamosus is not attested in classical sources; generated from lama, ‘marshy place’, ‘bog’
(Ennius, Horace, Festus). V’s emendation is unnecessary.
35 I.e. Francis I and Charles V.
36 Concluded in October 1515. Francis entered Milan on October 11.

via John Gibbons
110 J.L. Vives
TIR. Sed tantis sumptibus ut mireris Galliae ubertatem, quae toties de-
messa revirescat, et fundat ex eodem satu fruges, velut restibilis qui-
dam ager. Medicam dicas ferre, non pecuniam, praesertim cum utan-
tur pedite peregrino; et nobilitas equitet, continuis tot bellis supra
quam dici possit, exhausta atque imminuta. 5
MIN. Dolet per Proserpinam sic affligi Galliam, nam non credas quot pro-
bae ac innoxiae animae ad tribunal hoc omnibus veniant annis.
TIR. Philogalatos videris mihi esse, o Minos.
MIN. Non tam Philogalatos, o Tiresia, quam Philagathos, cuiuscumque sit
gentis. 10
POL. Praeclara sibi videbatur Franciscus regni sui fecisse tirocinia, tanta
dicione imperio suo adiecta. Itaque statuit aliquantisper quiescere,
vires reficere, ac se novo alicui reparare bello.
13 Inter haec Maximilianus Imperator fato defungitur. De impera-
tore deligendo, ambitu et profusissimis largitionibus apud electores 15
a Carolo et Francisco certatum, quasi mercimonium licerentur, non
regnum.
TIR. Inepte haec sunt illis sua mercimonia; haec negotiantur.
POL. Vincebat largitione Franciscus; sed Carolus, memoria tum gentis
suae, in qua erant quinque continui imperatores, tum nationis, quod 20
ad Germaniam paternum genus referebat, itaque hic Imperator
declaratur. Magnorum odiorum radices iam pridem natae, adultae
hinc inter duos iuvenes praecipuos orbis Christiani, pares nobilitate,
opibus, dicione, potentia.
TIR. Adde etiam felices et sibi et suis regnis, si felicitati suae modum sci- 25
vissent ponere, contenti amplissimis imperiis, non ferro, non vi partis,
sed a maioribus relictis hereditate!
8 Philogalatos videris mihi W, B, V: Philoceltes videris mihi Cr 9 Non tam Philogalatos W,

B, V: Non tam Philoceltes Cr 18 illis sua mercimonia W, B, Cr: illis sua marcimonia V

via John Gibbons
TIR. Yet at such cost that you wonder at the fertility of France, which
sprouts again and again after being mown down and produces fruit
from the same seed like a field that is never fallow. You would say
it’s growing clover, not money, especially since they are using foreign
footsoldiers; the cavalry would be the nobility who, with war follow-
ing war beyond recording, would be exhausted and worn down.
MIN. By Proserpina, it’s sad to see France so afflicted; you can’t believe how
many upright, innocent souls are coming before this tribunal every
year.
TIR. You appear to be a Gaulophile, Minos.
MIN. Not so much a Gaulophile, Tiresias, but a Goodophile, whatever be
one’s nation.
POL. Francis thought he had performed his initiation into kingship spec-
tacularly, having added so much territory to his realm. So he decided
to rest a while, restore his forces, and prepare himself for another war.
Meantime the Emperor Maximilian died. Competition flared up 13
between Charles and Francis over the choice of a successor, with cam-
paigning and massive bribery aimed at the electors as if market goods
rather than a realm were on offer.37
TIR. Ridiculously, they think these things are their own merchandise, and
so they market them.
POL. Francis was winning at bribery; but since people remembered both
Charles’s family, in which there were five successive emperors, and
his nationality—German on his father’s side—, he was declared em-
peror.38 The preexisting roots of virulent animosities grew and ma-
tured from this point between the two dominant youths of the Chris-
tian world, equal in nobility, wealth, kingship and power.
TIR. Add that they were fortunate in their person and their kingdoms. If
only they had known how to impose a limit on that fortune and be
content with widespread holdings, secured not by arms or force, but
left as inheritance from their ancestors!
37 1519.
38 The identity of Vives’s ‘five successive emperors’ is uncertain. The previous three
(Albert II, 1438–1440; Frederick III, 1440–1493; Maximilian) were Hapsburgs; the first
of them, Albert II, was the son-in-law of his predecessor Sigismund of Luxembourg
(1410–1438). (Bryce 1917:xvii–xviii.)

via John Gibbons
112 J.L. Vives
POL. Dum in Germaniam ad ineundum principatum ex Hispania Carolus

redit, consecuti sunt motus Hispaniae plebis adversus nobilitatem,
urbium adversus urbes.
TIR. Rabies, non dissensio, neque enim sciebat multitudo quid peteret, cur
arma corripuisset, pro quo pugnaret; optimates quod esset belli sui 5
praemium non ignorabant.
POL. Hanc occasionem Franciscus arripuit et in Hispaniam exercitum
misit ad intercipiendam Navarram. Hinc bellum exortum, quod huic
tempori incredibilia mala importavit. Capta a Gallis Navarra, et ante
sextam hebdomadem cum ipsorum clade amissa. Nam Hispani, 10
externo hoste conspecto, iras in illum et arma converterunt. Carolus,
ad Valencennas Belgicas, non multum a capto aut certe obsesso afuit.
TIR. Periculum adit qui facit, nec quisquam est tam potens qui tutus sit si
hostem habeat.
14 POL. Adiunctus partibus Caesaris Britannus, Scotus Gallis. Itum in Ita- 15
liam. Pontifex Caesarianum se est professus: ademptum Mediolanum
Gallo post magnum proelium, et Tornacum in Belgica. Caesari vero
Fonterabia in Pyrenaeis, sed quae postea est recuperata. Pressus Gal-
lus undique in Caesarianos, qui Massiliam obsidione cinxerant, totis
viribus incubuit; quos cum illinc in Italiam fugasset, magna est eos 20
celeritate persecutus. Quod nisi Caesariani pari usi essent in fuga
5 pro quo pugnaret W, Cr, B: pro quo pugnare V

via John Gibbons
POL. While Charles was returning to Germany from Spain to begin his
emperorship, outbreaks ensued among the Spanish commoners
against the nobility; city clashed against city.39
TIR. Madness, not dissension: the multitude knew not what they wanted,
why they had taken up arms, or what they were fighting for; the nobil-
ity was not unaware what was their prize in the war.40
POL. Francis seized the opportunity and sent an army to Spain to cut off
Navarre. Thus began the war which has wrought great havoc on this
age. Navarre was taken by the French, then lost within six weeks at
great cost to themselves; for the Spanish, sighting the foreign enemy,
turned their rage and their weapons on Francis.41 Charles, at Belgian
Valenciennes, narrowly escaped capture or at least encirclement.42
TIR. One who precipitates danger risks danger. No one is so powerful as to
be invulnerable if he has an enemy.
POL. The English backed Charles, the Scots joined the French. The war 14
spread to Italy. The Pope declared for Charles. Milan was taken from
the French after a major battle;43 likewise Tournai in Belgium.
Fonterabia in the Pyrenees was lost to Charles but recovered after-
ward.44 The French, pressed on all sides, struck with everything they
had against the Imperial troops, who had surrounded and besieged
Marseilles; they put them to flight into Italy and swiftly pursued
them.45 If the Imperial troops had not used equal speed and short-
39 Charles had left Spain from May 1520 to July 1522 to campaign for the Holy Roman
Emperorship upon the death of Maximilian I (1519). A wave of civil unrest in the realms
of Castile and Aragon, inspired at least partly by the rebels’ desire for a strong, just, and
locally established monarch, occurred during Charles’s absence (Bard 1982:93). The
dissidence was quelled just in time for Charles’s forces to drive the French back from
incursions they had made into Navarre south of the Pyrenees on behalf of the Navar-
rese royal family, and to recover Navarre for Spain. (Brandi 1970:142–149; Bard 1982:94–
96.) Calero (1992:61 n. 32) notes that there are various interpretations of the rebel-
lions. Further on Navarre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_Iberian
_Navarre#Hondarribia_and_last_stand_at_Amaiur.
40 Calero notes that Vives’s aversion toward the rebels concurs with the nobles’ interpre-
tation of the events. Another possible example of this aversion occurs in his De veritate
fidei Christianae, Book 4 (Vives 2016:42–45, n. 26), where Vives appears to cite a char-
latan claiming divine warrant for the rebels’ cause.
41 1521. See Brandi 1970:147.
42 October 1521.
43 Late 1521.
44 Brandi 1970:147, 217. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_Iberian_
Navarre#Hondarribia_and_last_stand_at_Amaiur.
45 Late 1524.

via John Gibbons
114 J.L. Vives
celeritate et compendiis viarum, maxima fuisset vel accepta ab eis

clades, conclusis et fugientibus, vel certe data a desperatis. Ad Tici-
num vero pugnatum est in saepto; ibi contrucidati Galli et Helvetii
milites, partim in amnem demersi, dum fuga saluti suae consulunt.
Rex cum frequenti nobilitate in manus Caesarianorum venit. 5
TIR. Qui ad se Martem accersit, canem rabidam, fieri secus non potest
quin mordeatur. Et sunt qui ad mala sua cursim contendant.
15 MIN. Quid interea Turca? Dormiitne?
POL. Minime gentium. Novus princeps, quae maioribus suis fuerant inex-
pugnabilia, Rhodum insulam et Belgradum, vere gradum Pannoniae 10
et Christiani nominis, maxima nostra ignominia subegit.
MIN. Quid? Rhodum amisistis?
TIR. Quam obliviosus es, Minos! Non recordaris anno abhinc tertio, quot
ad vestrum tribunal veniebant animae, et quidem per milia, aliae sau-
ciae, aliae languidae, aliae candidis crucibus, aliae notis barbaricis 15
insignes?
MIN. Memini equidem. Illinc veniebant?
TIR. Illinc.
MIN. Sed accessit ille tam prope?
TIR. Longe istis videtur qui nihil sentiunt nisi vivum perstringat. 20
16 POL. Adducitur in Hispaniam Franciscus ad Caesarem; ibi de pace inter eos
convenit. Sed interea pontifici et Venetis placuit, vel quod olim Iulio,
Italiam externo liberare dominatu; vel non sinere opes Caesaris, sem-
per ipsis formidabiles, in Italia invalescere. Dant operam ut coniurent
civitates Italiae in foedus quod Sanctum appellarunt. 25
TIR. Probe faciunt: nomen et omen quantivis pretii.
8 Quid interea Turca? Dormiitne? W, Cr: Quid interea Turca? Dormitne? B, V 13 anno
abhinc tertio Cr, V: anno adhinc tertio W, B 20 nisi vivum perstringat W, Cr, B: nisi vivunt
perstringant V

via John Gibbons
cuts in their retreat, they would have either suffered a catastrophe,

surrounded and in flight, or inflicted one in their desperation. At the
Ticino they fought in a confined space. There, French and Swiss sol-
diers were slaughtered; some drowned in the stream when they tried
to flee to safety. Francis and a large noble retinue fell into the hands
of the Emperor’s army.46
TIR. When one invites the mad dog47 Mars to his side, he cannot avoid
being bitten. There are people who hurry eagerly to their own destruc-
tion.
MIN. Meanwhile, what of the Turk? Has he been asleep? 15
POL. Certainly not. The new Sultan conquered places impregnable to our
forebears, the island of Rhodes, and Belgrade, truly the threshold of
Hungary and Christendom, and covered us with shame.48
MIN. What! You lost Rhodes?
TIR. Minos, how forgetful you are! Don’t you recall how many souls arrived
at your tribunal three years ago by the thousands, some wounded,
some exhausted, some wearing white crosses, others with barbarian
symbols?
MIN. Of course I remember. Is that where they came from?
TIR. Just so.
MIN. And did he really come that close?
TIR. It seems far away to those who don’t feel anything unless they encoun-
ter it in the flesh.
POL. Francis was brought before Charles in Spain; there they made a peace 16
pact.49 But meanwhile the Pope and the Venetians decided, as Julius
had once done, either to liberate Italy from foreign domination or pre-
vent the power of Charles, always formidable to them, from gathering
strength. They worked to bring the cities of Italy into a treaty which
they called the Holy League.50
TIR. Rightly done: the name and the portent are worth a great deal.
46 February 1525, at Pavia. M&S 2012: 150–151, including the detail of the drowned soldiers
and the noble status of many of the prisoners.
47 Uncertain why canem rabidam is feminine. Perhaps influenced by Hor., Ep. 2, 2, 75,
rabiosa canis.
48 Rhodes in 1522; Belgrade in 1521.
49 The Treaty of Madrid, 1525–1526.
50 The League of Cognac, headed by Francis, including the papacy, Milan, Florence, and
Venice, with Henry VIII named ‘Protector’. (M&S 202:155.)

via John Gibbons
116 J.L. Vives
POL. Dimittitur Franciscus in Galliam, datis duobus parvis filiis obsidibus,

quos reciperet simul primum pacta inter se et Caesarem praestitisset.
Sed Rex sollicitatus ab Italis foederi se adiunxit.
TIR. Putavit exspectandum lusus exitum.
POL. Itaque distulit tradere quae promiserat. Pacis condiciones Caesaria- 5
nis videntur aequissimae, Gallis et qui pro eis faciunt iniquissimae.
TIR. Sic usu veniebat filiis meis colludentibus. Nullus umquam faciebat
iniuriam, accipiebat semper.
17 POL. Hispani militis gravem atque acerbam insolentiam negant Itali esse
iam amplius Italiae tolerabilem. 10
TIR. O quale hominum genus! Dii vestram fidem, nominasti Hispanum
militem? Sunt quidem milites omnes praefervidi, arrogantes, incom-
positissimi. Ecquis enim miles vel suo ipsius patri tolerabilis? Hispani
tamen milites nullis aliis cedunt improbitate, duritia oris, atrocibus
dictis factisque; nescio an ex tanta continuatione victoriarum. Itaque 15
non dubito illos violente se ac impotenter gessisse, multaque faci-
nora fecisse foeda atque abominanda: stipendio praesertim tam diu
dilato, et ad postremum aegre appenso. Neque enim erat unde, idque
illi interpretati sunt, quod faciunt sane non admodum inviti, iuberi
se ex victis rapere, nonnumquam ex sociis quoque. Quibus de causis 20
ingens tum Italiae tum aliarum quarundam nationum adversum se
et principem suum, et universum Hispanum nomen odium concita-
runt. Etsi merent sub Hispanis ducibus Itali quidam, qui crudeliora in
suos edunt facinora quam ulli Hispanorum, nominantur hi quoque
Hispani, quia sub eisdem signis et duce Hispano. Sed nec statuere 25
possum an Italorum querela satis iusta, ut bellum alienissimo tem-
pore moverint. Et alioqui illis invisus semper est victor, quod ipsis
commune est cum ceteris provinciis quae victae ac subactae alieno
imperio reguntur, sicut Marcus Tullius deploravit Flaccum defendens.
13–14 Hispani tamen milites W, Cr: Hispani tum milites B, V 15 dictis factisque W, Cr:
dictisque factis B, V

via John Gibbons
POL. Francis was released to France after offering his two small sons as
hostages; he would recover them the moment he had fulfilled the
agreements between himself and Charles. But he was solicited by the
Italians and joined their alliance.
TIR. He thought the end of the game was at hand.
POL. So he postponed delivery of what he had promised. The conditions
for peace seemed most fair to the Imperial forces, most unfair to the
French and their supporters.
TIR. That’s how my sons always played with each other. Nobody ever com-
mitted an offense; each one was always the victim.
POL. The Italians declared that the deep-rooted, harsh arrogance of the 17
Spanish soldiery would nevermore be tolerable in Italy.
TIR. What a breed of humanity! Gods help us, did you bring up the Span-
ish warrior? Of course, all soldiers are hotheaded, arrogant, undis-
ciplined: is there any soldier who can be tolerated even by his own
father? But the Spanish soldiers are second to none in audacity, bra-
zenness, atrocious words and deeds; for all I know, it may be because
of their endless string of victories. So I don’t doubt that they have
acted violently and without restraint, and perpetrated many revolt-
ing, abominable acts; especially since their pay was withheld so long
and in the end allotted only grudgingly, with uncertainty as to the
source. They took this to mean—and they were quite willing to act
accordingly—that they were ordered to plunder the defeated, and
sometimes even their allies. This is why among the peoples of Italy
and some other nations they stirred up intense hate toward them-
selves, their leader, and the very name Spanish. Some Italians, despite
merely serving under Spanish generals, inflicted greater cruelties on
their countrymen than any Spaniards did, and were called Spanish
because they acted under Spanish banners and a Spanish leader. But
I am not sure whether the Italians’ complaint is so justifiable, seeing
that they themselves provoked the war at such an unfavorable time.
In general, the victor is always despised by the vanquished, since the
latter have a fate in common with other provinces which are con-
quered and subjected to foreign rule, as Marcus Tullius lamented in
his defense of Flaccus.51
51 See Cicero, Pro Flacco 61.

via John Gibbons
118 J.L. Vives
18 POL. Turca mense hoc Danubium transgressus validissima manu Panno-

niam invasit, et grandi proelio nostros concidit, inter quos etiam
regem, admodum etiamnum adolescentem, nec sine Turcarum
strage. Nam Bohemi et ceteri Germani strenue locum quem initio
proelii occuparant tutati sunt. Sed fere multitudo eos hostium op- 5
pressit, et fuga a quibusdam ex acie facta ordines aperuit, dissolvit,
lacerandos hosti praebuit. Hinc Turca per Hungariam effusus expi-
lavit, et continuo post incendit urbes plerosque mortales trucidavit,
pecora abegit, caedem ubique et stragem attulit; multa foede, multa
horrenda patrata sunt. 10
In Italia de possessione Insubriae inter Caesarianos et confoedera-
tos maximis conatibus certatur. Dolet vehementer non obtigisse mihi
fatum aliquanto longius ut finem fabulae huius, licet tantopere atro-
cis tristisque, spectarem.
TIR. Votum improbum, Polypragmon; diuturnam vitam nimis optabas. 15
Neque enim erit ita brevi malorum finis. Nam videor mihi videre res
orbis Christiani convolutas tamquam globum fili innodatum atque
amplexum, ut eglomerari vix possit, nisi Deus ipse sapientia et bene-
ficio suo opem ac subsidium afferat rebus tam afflictis et labentes ac
ruentes fulciat. 20
19 MIN. Egregie functus es tuo munere, Polypragmon; edocuisti me unde tanti
animarum casus. Probe atque ordine videris mihi latrocinia illa per-
currisse. Nam quid aliud sunt inter Christianos bella quam mera
latrocinia? Insanias mihi narrasti, non bella. Ceterum post tot sump-
tus, pericula, discrimina, utra pars facta est ditior aut meliore est con- 25
dicione?
POL. Utrique, o Minos, et socii eorum omnes exhausti, regna compilata,
nobilitas fracta et accisa, florentes olim urbes solo aequatae; agri exi-
naniti, deserti. Haec quaesita sunt per tot labores, et mala data atque
accepta ultro et citro. 30
23 quid aliud sunt inter Christianos W, Cr, B: quid aliud sunt haec inter Christianos V 27
Utrique, o Minos W, Cr, B: O Minos, utrique V

via John Gibbons
POL. This very month the Turk crossed the Danube with a powerful army, 18
invaded Hungary, and in a mighty battle slaughtered our troops,
among them the king himself who was barely an adolescent,52 but
not without a great massacre of the Turks. For the Bohemians and
the other Germans vigorously protected the place they had occupied
at the start of the combat. But a virtual horde of the enemy beset
them and when some had fled from the battle line, it opened up their
ranks, broke them up, and exposed them to enemy assaults. Then the
Turks poured through Hungary, plundered and straightaway torched
cities, slaughtered people en masse, and scattered the herds, spread-
ing death and destruction everywhere, committing numerous atroc-
ities and horrors.
In Italy desperate struggles were underway between the Imperial
troops and the League for control of Insubria.53 It pains me deeply
not to have had my fate postponed a little, so I could have seen the
end of this play, regardless how atrocious and woeful.54
TIR. A shameless desire, Busybody: you always wanted to live too long.
And the end of evils won’t be anytime soon. For I seem to see the
affairs of Christendom jumbled like a ball of string in such knots and
coils that it can scarcely be untangled unless God himself uses his
wisdom and benignity to bring aid and succor to such a bad situation,
and prop up these people as they slip and fall.
MIN. You have done your job well, Busybody, telling me where this cas- 19
cade of souls comes from. I think you have narrated those robberies
faithfully and clearly. For what could you call wars among Christians
other than plain robbery? You have described insanities, not wars.
Now tell me: after all those expenses, dangers, and hazards, which side
emerged richer or better off?
POL. Both sides, o Minos, along with their allies, have been exhausted;
kingdoms plundered, nobility spent and decimated, once prosperous
cities razed to the ground, fields devastated and abandoned. These
objectives were sought amid numberless hardships, and evils were
inflicted and suffered by both rivals.
52 The Ottoman rout of the Hungarians and their youthful King Louis II is dated Au-
gust 29, 1526: thus a terminus post quem for the DEDBT, which was published in Decem-
ber of that year.
53 I.e. the region around Milan.
54 Busybody’s time on earth ends, of course, with the last historical occurrences prior to
the publication of the DEDBT.

via John Gibbons
120 J.L. Vives
MIN. Quid furori similius?

TIR. Hoc ipsum, si modo simile sit quicquam sui ipsius. Numquamne
versiculum illum audisti, stultorum regum et populorum continet
aestus?
MIN. Audivi saepe. 5
TIR. Nunc rem expressam audis.
MIN. Sed suntne vera haec omnia, Tiresia?
TIR. Veriora iis quae ad Sagram, et quidem cruentiora. Heu! Quantum
potuit terra pelagoque parari, hoc quem civiles hauserunt sanguine
dextrae! Non Turca solum deleri sed subigi etiam potuit, quicquid ter- 10
rae ac maris inter orientem atque occidentem solem patet.
MIN. Ergo, ut video, nutricula bellorum omnium est Italia. Illinc orta bella
inter vos, aetatis huius omnia: ab illis hominibus educata et redac-
censa; illic maxima ex parte gesta. Cur non ea cedunt Italis et rem
tam perniciosam possidenti sinunt valere? 15
20 TIR. Nihil utique Hispaniae et Galliae utilius, o Minos; utinam animum
Transalpini possint inducere ut id facerent. Essent duo illa regna,
immo Christiana omnia, quietissima, laetissima, florentissima viris,
divitiis, amica inter se; tum Christiani orbis firmiores opes, copia,
vires, et Turcis impense formidabiles. Sed praeterquam quod vide- 20
tur ipsis praemium dignum bello et victoria, Itali ipsi illi, qui expul-
sos voluissent exteros, qui conati essent, qui sumpsissent arma, qui
acie congressi: iis digressis, altero die Alpes transirent ut aliquem vel
Hispanum accirent vel Gallum qui in se dominaretur!
MIN. Quid malum, nescirent ipsi sua regere? 25
TIR. Scirent, et aliena quoque. Nam ingeniis sunt praediti, valent consilio,
prudentia, vitae usu atque exercitatione, nec viribus aut armis sunt
postremi. Sed factionibus sunt dissecti, et odio laborant incredibili
3–4 stultorum regum et populorum continet aestus] Hor. ep. 1,2,8 8 Veriora iis quae ad
Sagram] Suid. s.v. Σάγρα; ‘αληθέστερα τῶν επὶ Σάγρα’. cf. Strabo 6, p. 261 8–10 Heu! Quantum
potuit … sanguine dextrae] Luc. 1,13–14
20 Turcis impense formidabiles Cr: Turcis impensae formidabiles W, B, V

via John Gibbons
MIN. What is more like madness?

TIR. This very story, if something can be just like itself. Haven’t you ever
heard that line ‘… encompasses the passions of foolish kings and peo-
ples’?55
MIN. I have. Frequently.
TIR. Now you hear it brought to life.
MIN. But is all this true, Tiresias?
TIR. Truer than what happened at the Sagra, and even bloodier.56 ‘Alas!
What conquests could have been ours on land and sea for the price of
this blood which fratricidal arms have spilled!’ The Turk could have
been not only destroyed but even made subject throughout the land
and sea that lies between the rising and the setting sun.57
MIN. Then I think Italy is the wet-nurse of all wars. That is where the con-
flicts among you, all of them in this era, have arisen. They have been
reared and reignited by those men and for the most part fought in
that place. Why doesn’t everyone yield them to the Italians and let
that country, so destructive to its possessor, go its own way?
TIR. Surely nothing would be better for Spain and France, Minos; if only 20
the Transalpines could persuade themselves to comply. Those two
Christian kingdoms, or rather all of Christendom, would be at peace,
joyful, prosperous in men and riches, and mutually friendly; while
the resources, abundance, and might of the Christian world would be
made stronger, and enormously intimidating to the Turks. But then,
in addition to what the rivals think is recompense for war and victory,
those same Italians who wanted foreigners expelled, who struggled,
who took up arms, who lined up in battle, once the invaders had
gone away, the next day would travel over the Alps to summon some
Spaniard or Frenchman to rule over them!
MIN. Confound it! Wouldn’t they know how to rule themselves?
TIR. They would, and foreign lands as well. For they are gifted with intel-
ligence, are good at counselling, have prudence, experience, and pro-
ficiency in affairs, and they are not behind when it comes to man-
power or armaments. But they are riven by factions and burdened
55 Horace, Epistles 1,2,8; the subject of the sentence is the Iliad.

56 ‘[At the Sagra River in south Italy] ten thousand Locrians, with Reggiani, clashed with
one hundred and thirty thousand Crotoniates and gained the victory—an occurrence
which gave rise, it is said, to the proverb we use with incredulous people, “Truer than
the result at Sagra.” ’ (Strabo vol. 6, p. 261, trans. Loeb, spelling adapted.)
57 Tiresias suggests the prospect which Scipio will hold out later in the dialogue.

via John Gibbons
122 J.L. Vives
inter se. Ea res civitates omnes atque imperia, quamlibet potentia

et recte firmata ac constituta, diruit funditusque exstirpavit. Itaque
modo iras suas ulciscantur, canem aliquem, nedum hominem quem-
vis, principem et dominum reciperent. Malunt Hispano, Gallo, Ger-
mano servire quam parere civi. Prudenter quidam eorum vates ceci- 5
nit: Sic est, acerba fata Romanos agunt, scelusque fraternae necis, ut
immerentis fluxit in terram Remi sacer necibus cruor.
21 POL. Illi de Italia liti duae aliae accesserunt. De Burgundia, Mariae Caroli
filiae a Ludovico XI adempta: quam Carolus hic velut hereditatem
suam armis repetit, quando hoc solum est ius inter potentes; et Na- 10
varra, quam a Iulio publicatam bello Gallico Fernandus Aragonius
intercepit.
MIN. Quid? Pontificis sunt regna, ut ea quibus velit detrahat, quibus velit
attribuat?
POL. Ius quidem aiunt esse pontificis, possessionem autem ferri et virium. 15
MIN. Has mallem.
POL. Nimirum: et ius pontificium his cedit. Sed de Navarra levius malum:
quod qui amisit non amplas habet opes. Nec de Burgundia grave:
quod hi non ambiunt et sollicitant alios principes ut ad se veniant,
ingentia pollicentes. 20
MIN. Oportet eam esse Italiam quam quisque facile expetat, et pro qua,
sicut de Helena dicitur, indignum non sit tot gentes in discrimen belli
venire.
6–7 Sic est, acerba fata … sacer necibus cruor] Hor. epod. 7, 16–20
10 ius inter potentes W, B, V: ius interponentes Cr

via John Gibbons
with incredible mutual hate. That struggle has torn down and utterly
obliterated every city and empire, however powerful, however prop-
erly rooted and established. Accordingly, as long as they can avenge
their grievances they would accept a dog, let alone any man what-
ever, for their prince and master. They choose servitude to a Spaniard,
a Frenchman, or a German over obedience to a fellow citizen. Wisely
did one of their bards sing: ‘So it goes: bitter fates bedevil Romans, and
the crime of fratricide, so that the sacred blood of innocent Remus
has soaked the ground with slaughter.’
POL. In addition to the contest for Italy there were two others: over Bur- 21
gundy, which was taken from Maria the daughter of Charles the Bold
by Louis XI, and which Charles is seeking back by force, since force
is the only law among the powerful;58 and over Navarre, which was
confiscated by Julius, then seized by Ferdinand of Aragon in war with
the French.59
MIN. What! Does the pope own kingdoms, so that he may take them from
whom he wishes and bestow them on whom he wishes?
POL. They say that’s the pope’s right, but possession is by weapons and
armed force.
MIN. These are what I would prefer.
POL. Naturally; and pontifical right yields to them. But Navarre is a minor
trouble, because he who lost it does not have many resources. Nor is
the Burgundian issue grave; the citizens do not campaign with out-
landish promises offered other princes to come to them.60
MIN. It’s bound to happen that Italy is the place each one unhesitatingly
seeks out, for which, as is said of Helen, it’s not unbecoming that so
many nations risk the hazards of war.61
58 The contentious Charles the Bold (ruled Burgundy 1467–1477) died in battle against
the Swiss at Nancy; his daughter Mary inherited his realm. Louis XI of France, was now
‘the great power in the West’ (Kendall 1971:314). Owing to Mary’s marriage to the future
Emperor Maximilian I (1477), Burgundian lands were divided between France and the
Hapsburg empire. Busybody then skips forward to 1526 and the aftermath of Francis I’s
capture at the battle of Pavia (February 1525). The treaty of Madrid early the following
year, arranging for the king’s release, provided that Charles V receive the Duchy of Bur-
gundy from France. Francis broke the treaty and contended with Charles for rights to
Burgundy until 1544, when Charles finally gave up his claim (Knecht 1982:184–189, 370).
In his retrospective of Francis’s reign, Knecht says ‘The king’s main territorial success
[save for expansions] was the purely negative one of holding on to Burgundy in the
face of Charles V’s determined efforts to recover the duchy’ (ibid., p. 429).
59 See note 31 above.
60 I.e., unlike the Italians.
61 Iliad 3,156–160.

via John Gibbons
124 J.L. Vives
22 POL. Est quidem amoenissima regio et soli uberrimi, tum urbibus ac popu-
lis frequens, plane qualem Vergilius descripsit. Credo legisse te, etsi
Latinum poetam. Sed illis tantum est Italia utilis, qui in pace et sine
ulla possident controversia, ut Sicilia olim regibus Aragonum. Nam
aliis non solum annui illic reditus alendis praesidiis non sufficiunt, 5
sed multum est de suo addendum. Equidem de iis qui id scire bellis-
sime existimabantur audivi, cum dicerent ad fiscum Fernandi Regis
nummum unum sestertium ex Neapolitana dicione numquam re-
disse: quin potius mitti illuc solitum ad tolerandos militares sumptus
ex proventibus Castellae. Sit hoc tibi maximi argumenti vice quod 10
Gallia et Hispania, ex quo coeperunt in Italia res gerere, exhaustae et
profligatae sunt. Italia non est dragma facta pauperior, nisi quantum
militaris furor vastavit.
MIN. Quid ergo?
TIR. Stulta ambitio nominis sine re. Et Itali ipsi iidem in caussa. 15
23 MIN. At, Tiresia, quam tandem medicinam adhibendam tantis malis cen-
ses?
TIR. Quid iuvat ea de re consultare cum illi bonis consiliis parituri non
sint? Adeo excaecatus quisque ab affectu auctore pessimo rapitur.
MIN. Sed quid obstat quin sententiam tuam aperias, modo paucis, ante- 20
quam repleatur forum umbris quae postulent sibi ius dici?
TIR. Nescio quid sperandum sit, o Minos, in tam aspera et confirmata
discordia, ubi quisque improvidus sui vicinum vellet perditum. Putat
se quisque non tutum modo et incolumem, sed auctum quoque et
locupletatum fore, si vicino sit quam pessime. Atqui si vicini domus 25
ardeat, non est vicina domus loco optimo. Pessimum profecto habe-
bit vicinum quisquis habebit Turcam. Lupos mallem, aut palustrem
aliquem et pestilentem agrum.
3–4 sine ulla possident controversia W, B, V: sine ulla controversia possident Cr

via John Gibbons
POL. Indeed, it’s a beautiful region with rich soil, moreover filled with cities 22
and populaces, plainly just what Vergil described.62 I believe you’ve
read him, even though he’s a Latin poet. But Italy is useful only to
those who possess it in peace and without any quarrelling, as Sicily
once was under Aragonese monarchs.63 For others not only is the
native annual revenue insufficient to maintain a garrison, but one
must add much from his own means. In fact, I have heard from people
reputed to be very well informed who said that not a single sestertium
from the Neapolitan regime ever came to the treasury of King Ferdi-
nand; on the contrary, regular shipments arrived from the resources of
Castile to bear the military expenses. Take this as the strongest argu-
ment: ever since France and Spain undertook expeditions in Italy,
they’ve been exhausted and ruined. Italy did not become a drachma
poorer except when ravaged by military fury.
MIN. Then why?
TIR. The stupid ambition for a name without substance. And the Italians
themselves are to blame.
MIN. But, Tiresias, what remedy do you think should be applied to such 23
great ills?
TIR. What good does it do to deliberate about it when they will not heed
sound advice? Everyone is blinded and swept away by passion, that
worst of mentors.
MIN. But what keeps you from voicing your opinion, even briefly, before
the court is swamped with souls who demand their rights?
TIR. I don’t know what hope there is, Minos, in such bitter and deep-rooted
discord, where each one thoughtlessly wishes his neighbor’s destruc-
tion. He thinks he will not only be protected from harm, but fortified
and enriched if his neighbor suffers complete ruin. But if your neigh-
bor’s house is on fire, the house next door is not the best location.
Indeed, he who lives next to the Turk has the worst neighbor. I would
prefer wolves, or a marshy and pest-ridden field.
62 Especially at Georgics 2,136–176.

63 Notably, Alfonso V, ‘The Magnanimous’ (ruled 1416–1458), John II (1458–1479), and Fer-
dinand ‘The Catholic’ (1479–1516). Although conditions were hardly idyllic, Sicily under
those rulers did not suffer directly from recurrent big-power war campaigns of the kind
that convulsed Italy from 1494 onward. See Mack Smith 1969:94–120.

via John Gibbons
126 J.L. Vives
24 POL. Atqui constans est apud superos rumor, immissum Turcam in Panno-
niam ab iis quos minime decebat, et a quibus nemo umquam metuis-
set.
TIR. Ego vero metuo ne magnam malam pestem et bene adultam sibi
accersierint, et illi ipsi et quotquot venienti non obstiterint pro virili. 5
MIN. Quo tandem foedere coierunt? Per quos iurarunt deos? Cum pietate
et deorum cultu tantum inter se distent, quis Turcae pro Christianis
spopondit, cum ingressus esset in Pannoniam, non omnes adversus
eum conspiraturos et correptis armis concursuros in eius perniciem,
tamquam ad restinguendum incendium? 10
TIR. Nihil opus est iure iurando. Praesens utilitas maximum est inter eos
foedus et societatis vinculum. Ingentia Christianorum dissidia et irre-
conciliabilia satis Turcae spondent fore tuta omnia. Quin tu quaeris
potius quis datur Christianis obses, Turcam non invasurum illos a
quibus sit in Europam advocatus? Hoc magis esset eis cavendum et 15
providendum, praesertim cum non pauca ediderit in eos ipsos exem-
pla a quibus essent sibi civitates et populi proditi.
MIN. Oportet eos odisse mutuo capitaliter, qui numquam faciunt bellandi
finem ullum aut modum. Nihil satis iuratum, satis sancitum, firmum,
pactum, nulla pax valida, nullae indutiae; facta omnia infecta, firmata 20
infirma.
25 TIR. Illud peius, si videas quemadmodum inter se gerant bella, non gla-
dio aut hasta vel scorpione aut arcu, ut una plaga, cum est letalis,
mortalem unum absumat. Tormenti genus est ab eis repertum quo
excusso gravius consternere quam cum tonat Iuppiter. Prosternuntur 25
uno excussu viceni, quadrageni, centeni.
SCIP. Dii immortales! Qualis est haec rabies? Ergo nullus est iam locus nec
honos viris fortibus?
TIR. Viros fortes casus iam facit si multis proeliis supersint, non animus
aut robur. 30
9 concursuros in eius perniciem W, B, V: concursuro in eius perniciem Cr

via John Gibbons
POL. Now, there is a persistent rumor among the living that the Turk was 24
ushered into Hungary by people who certainly should not have done
it, whom no one ought ever to have worried about.64
TIR. Well, I am worried that they have brought down on themselves a
truly awful and fully matured curse—both the traitors themselves
and whoever failed to do everything they could to stop them.
MIN. Then what sort of pact did they make? By what gods did they swear?
When they differ so widely in religion and worship of the gods, who
was it that took an oath for the Christians before the Turk that when
he had entered Hungary not everyone would unite against him, take
up arms, and fight to destroy him as if to quench a conflagration?
TIR. There is no need for an oath. The strongest agreement among them
and the bond of union is whatever is useful for the moment. The huge
irreconcilable clashes among Christians give the Turk sufficient guar-
antee that all will be well. Why not ask rather what was the nature of
the pledge given to Christians that the Turk would not invade those
who welcomed him into Europe? This is the issue you should treat
with more attention and forethought, especially since the Turk has
furnished no few precedents of hostility toward those very people by
whom cities and populations have been betrayed to him.
MIN. We should hate mutually and mortally those who never exercise any
limit or restraint in war. Nothing sufficiently sworn, sufficiently sanc-
tioned, stable, agreed upon; no valid peace, no truce; everything that
is done is not done, what’s confirmed is unconfirmed.
TIR. It’s worse if you see how they wage wars among themselves; not with 25
sword or shield, launcher or bow, where one blow, although lethal,
slays one man. A kind of catapult has been developed by them which
when fired delivers a bigger shock than when Jupiter thunders. Wiped
out with one round are groups of twenty, forty, a hundred.65
SC. Immortal gods! What madness is this? Then is there no place or glory
for brave men?
TIR. Chance, not spirit or strength, now produces brave men, if they sur-
vive many battles.
64 Francis I of France was not above making common cause with the Turks if it promoted
his ongoing quarrel with Charles V. After the disaster at Mohács, Francis backed John
Zapolya, a candidate for succession to the Hungarian throne who was allied with the
Sultan against Charles’s brother Ferdinand of Austria. (Knecht 1982:214–215. See also
Colish 2009:5.)
65 Cannon.

via John Gibbons
128 J.L. Vives
SCIP. Atqui memini dici mihi in Graecia, fuisse illic Laconem quendam
hominem militarem qui viso scorpionis genere, quod erat nuper e
Sicilia allatum, exclamarit: Periit viri virtus. Quid nunc exclamaturus
si illa videat?
TIR. Quid? Periit hominis humanitas, nam ex hominibus degeneraverunt 5
in feras saevissimas, et Christiani invento hoc nusquam accuratius
quam in Christianorum perniciem utuntur. Turcae inviti ad haec tela
descenderunt et coacti, ne a Christianis facile vincerentur, ni ea in
castris tormenta haberent.
26 SCIP. Illud vehementer admiror ut inter se inimicissimis sint animis, in- 10
gruente tamen externo hoste, non coadunari et consentire in tutelam
communis salutis, ut canes ad conspectum lupi aut ferae alius. Hoc
enim et vidi et legi et fando audivi usu venisse in unaquaque civitate,
unde natus sit ille syncretismos, Graeco proverbio celebratus. Multa
sunt in civitate nostra exempla, multa in Graecia; et quod recens de 15
Hispania Polypragmon retulit, eorum populorum vel hominum, qui
privatas inimicitias tantisper ponebant dum externus metus urge-
ret, quo sublato ad priora dissidia redibant. Dici enim solet, homines
mala coniungunt, et nullos esse veriores amicos quam qui inimicum
habent communem. 20
TIR. Utuntur quidem arte hac; sed in Christianum, ut vero inter se pacem
coeant adversus hostem sui pietatis et Christi, nihil est satis validum
et efficax; non respectus Christiani principis, et fortassis consangui-
nei, ut sunt omnes sanguine inter se et affinitatibus connexi. Malunt
dicionem eius esse sub Turca quam sub propinquo. Suam mallent a 25
Turca quam a Christiano occupari: quod indubie futurum est si sic
pergant. Quanta dementia, cum Christiano licebit agere legationibus,
iure, disceptatione, amicis communibus, precibus, deprecationibus; a
Turca vero nihil umquam aequi et boni impetrabitur! Nec tantulum
vel pietate vel populorum respectu aut Dei tanguntur. 30
3 Periit viri virtus] Archidamus filius Agesilai Erasm. Apophth. 1,55 LB IV, 113
28 precibus, deprecationibus W, B, V: precibus, deprecatoribus Cr

via John Gibbons
SC. But I recall a story told me in Greece about a Laconian soldier there
who, upon observing a type of launcher recently brought from Sicily,
exclaimed, ‘A man’s bravery has perished!’ What would he exclaim
today if he were to see this?
TIR. What? Why, ‘The humanity of humanity is lost!’ From human beings
they have degenerated into ferocious wild beasts, and Christians use
this invention nowhere more accurately than in the ruin of Christians.
The Turks stooped to these weapons unwillingly and under compul-
sion, to keep from being easily defeated by the Christians if they didn’t
have those cannons in camp.
SC. It truly amazes me that they are at each other’s throats despite an 26
enemy’s onslaught from outside, rather than uniting and planning
for common security like dogs at the intrusion of a wolf or some
other beast. This I have seen and read and heard tell of, happening
commonly in each state; whence the origin of syncretism, famed in
Greek proverb.66 There are many examples in our republic, many in
Greece; and as Busybody has reported fresh from Spain, instances
of how among those peoples and individuals who temporarily laid
aside their private disputes under threat of an external danger, hostil-
ity resumed when the menace was past. There is a saying: Evils bring
men together; none are truer friends than those who have a common
enemy.
TIR. They do resort to this stratagem; but in relating to a Christian, noth-
ing is strong and effective enough to make them firmly resolve mutual
peace against the enemy of their religion and Christ; not respect for a
Christian prince, even if he chance to be a blood relative, for they are
all interconnected by blood and affinity. They choose the dominion of
a Turk rather than a kinsman. They would rather have their country
taken over by a Turk than a Christian, which will certainly happen if
they persist in this way. What madness, when a Christian prince will
permit delegations, law, disputation, community of friends, rituals,
supplications; while from the Turk, nothing equitable or good will be
granted! They are not touched in the least by piety or respect for men
or God.
66 See LSJ συγκρητισμός, (syncretism), ‘union, federation of Cretan communities’, Plu-

tarch, Moralia 2, 490B.

via John Gibbons
130 J.L. Vives
27 An non commodius populi sub Christiano vivent principe, quam

sub Turca? Iam pietas, ut frigebit sub rege, ex professo hoste pieta-
tis? Interfui apud Elysios die quodam, cum Lucanus sodalibus aliquot
suis de bello civili Pompeiano multa narraret, ut videbatur acta tem-
porum illorum exactissime novisse: inter cetera referebat Lentulum 5
quendam, magno animo virum ex vetere illa nobilitate Romana, post
pugnam Pharsalicam qua Pompeii opes fuerunt fractae a Caesare,
dixisse hoc unum urbi Romae solatium ex tantis belli illius calami-
tatibus restare, quod civi esset suo servitura, nempe Iulio Caesari.
Sic Europae, quamdiu nullum est a Turca periculum, illa est unica 10
consolatio, quod quisquis vincat erit Christianus. At Turca si vincat,
quod solatium erit reliqui? Quae in posterum boni spes? Haec otiosi
et securi spectant, et aversi a communi hoste mutuo depugnant. Mul-
tum vereor ne et in Italia hoc tempore de hoc uno tantum certetur:
ab utris Italiam capiet Turca? a Caesarianis an a confoederatis? Putat 15
se unusquisque salvum fore, et quidem solum, quasi vero expugna-
tis reliquis, illum unum sit Turca passurus regnare, non sibi subdi-
tum, non unum ex suis bassanis. Frustra haec moneo et vociferor.
Incendium hoc paulatim invadendo quaeque proxima extrema quo-
que corrumpet. Sed aliis sunt superi intenti, nec exaudiunt quae apud 20
inferos clamamus.
28 BAS. Licet paucula, Minos, dicere?
MIN. Dic, dum ne insana.
BAS. Sanissima et prudentissima. Non intelligis, Tiresia, si cui est principi
aut populo foedus cum Turca, huic principi grandia et validissima 25
cum illo intercedere iuramenta, res amicorum salvas fore.
TIR. Plurimum tu quidem alieno iuriiurando tribuis, qui non es solitus
multum tuo tribuere. Ex te ipso velim de aliis coniecturam sumas.
17 illum unum sit Turca passurus regnare W, Cr: illum unum Turca passurus regnare B, V 27
qui non es solitus W, Cr, V: qui non est solitus B

via John Gibbons
Won’t it be better for a people to live under a Christian prince than 27

a Turk? How will piety, which will grow cold under a king, fare under
a professed enemy of piety? One day I was among the Elysians when
Lucan was expounding at length to some of his companions about
the Pompeian civil war; he seemed to know very accurately the his-
tory of those times. Among other matters he recalled how a certain
Lentulus, a great-hearted man from the old Roman nobility, after the
battle of Pharsalia in which Pompey’s power was broken by Caesar,
said that the one comfort left for the city of Rome out of all the calami-
ties of such a terrible war was that it would be subject to one of its
own citizens, namely Julius Caesar.67 So for Europe, as long as there is
no danger from the Turk, one consolation remains: whoever prevails
will be a Christian. But if the Turk should be the victor, what solace
is left? What hope of good for the future? People in their ease and
security see what’s happening, and fight each other with no thought
of the common enemy. I fear greatly that right now in Italy only one
question is at issue: from whom will the Turk take Italy, the Caesari-
ans or the confederates? Each one thinks he and he alone will be safe,
as if after all the others have been subdued the Turk will let him alone
stay in power, not replaced by one of the Turk’s governors. In vain do
I raise the alarm, and at the top of my voice. This inferno, gradually
spreading to each nearby land, will ultimately engulf those farthest
away. But the living are otherwise occupied and hear nothing of what
we among the dead are crying out.
BAS. May I say something, Minos? 28
MIN. Go ahead, as long as it’s not insane.
BAS. Quite sane and quite prudent. You fail to understand, Tiresias, that
if any prince or people makes a treaty with the Turk, such a prince
has great and powerful guarantees he can use to intercede before the
Turk; his friends’ possessions will be preserved.
TIR. You certainly give unlimited credit to a foreigner’s oath when ordinar-
ily you don’t even give much credence to your own! If only you would
estimate others on the basis of yourself!
67 See Lucan 8:354–356. (‘solacia tanti / perdit Roma mali, nullos admittere reges / sed ciui
seruire suo’, ‘Rome loses the solace for such a great disaster by not submitting to any
foreign kings, but serving her own citizen’). This passage actually refers to the risk of
losing a fellow citizen’s domination, in the event that Pompey’s advice to his compan-
ions to take refuge with the Parthians were to be heeded.

via John Gibbons
132 J.L. Vives
BAS. Tiresia, quod sit dictum cum tua bona venia, apparet te, etsi dica-
ris Thebis regnasse, numquam tamen ex casulis prodisse nec regum
vidisse palatia, qui me aeques principibus.
TIR. An non tam oportet te quae iuraveris praestare quam ipsos principes?
Sed quandoquidem te arbitraris hominem, illos deos; aut illos homi- 5
nes, te pecudem: dic quae pax, quod foedus, quae fides vel publice vel
privatim data, sancta fuit aetate hac et firma? Ergo Christianus quod
Christiano iuravit non servat: servabit Turca quod Christiano promi-
sit? Nisi credis Turcam religiosius Mahumeti somnia colere quam vos
sanctam pietatem Dei veri et immortalis, praesertim cum vos sciatis 10
nefas esse fidem frangere; ille, contra, ius fasque esse credat circumve-
nire vos, laedere, tollere hostes suae superstitionis, idque esse iussum
sibi a suis oraculis. Nec pauca sane Constantinopoli, Trapezunte, in
Pannonia, in Euboea, exempla ostendit se fidem, iusiurandum, deum
suum, misericordiam, humanitatem flocci non facere. 15
29 MIN. Atqui ex te Basili audire percupio, quae tandem causa Christianos
principes ad tanta et tam continua impellit bella.
BAS. Multae sane et graves.
TIR. Eas ego non video.
BAS. Non mirum, nam es caecus. 20
TIR. Atqui vides me hic apud inferos oculatiorem esse te.
BAS. Hic vero tu et oculatus et auritus, etiam linguax: apud superos vero
nihil cernis.
TIR. Tu vero ita illa cernebas ut ad haec animum numquam deflecteres.
BAS. Animadverti, Tiresia, quod nolim dictum putes sine stomacho, te iam- 25
dudum in principum bella rusticis facetiis ludere et res maxime serias
irridere.
TIR. Ego vero principes omneis venerandos esse existimo, obtemperan-
dum qualibuscumque, praeterea summam benevolentiam effusum-
que omnium favorem deberi bonis. 30
Sed quid faciendum censes, Colacule urbanissime, et quod tu
libentius audis, aulicissime? Vis me puerilia graviter audire, stulta
et furiosa suspicere, crudelitatem approbare? Homini vero irasci te,
9 Mahumeti somnia colere W, Cr, B: Mahumeti somnia colore V 12–13 idque esse iussum
sibi W, Cr: idque iussum sibi B, V 15 misericordiam, humanitatem W, B, V: mīam, humani-
tatem Cr

via John Gibbons
BAS. No offense, Tiresias, but from what you’ve said it’s clear that even
though they say you ruled Thebes, you’ve never left your little house
or laid eyes on the palaces of kings, and yet you equate me with rulers.
TIR. Now isn’t it as incumbent on you as it is on princes themselves to keep
your promises? But since you consider yourself human while they are
divine, or think they are human and that you are a brute beast, tell
me: what peace, what treaty, offered publicly or privately, has been
honored or stable in our time? Therefore, if a Christian doesn’t keep
an oath sworn to a Christian, will the Turk honor a promise made
to a Christian? Or perhaps you think the Turk holds to the fantasies
of Muhammad more faithfully than you adhere to the holy religion
of the true and immortal God, especially since you consider it a sin
to break faith. He, by contrast, believes it is right and proper to sur-
round you, attack you, do away with the enemies of his superstition,
all under the orders of his prophet. He has clearly shown, at Con-
stantinople and Trebizond, in Hungary and Euboea, no few proofs
that fidelity, a sworn oath, his own god, compassion, or human feel-
ing, mean less than nothing to him.
MIN. But I am truly eager to hear from you, Flatterer, what earthly reason 29
drives Christian princes to such violent, unending wars.
BAS. Many, to be sure, and grave reasons.
TIR. I fail to see them.
BAS. Of course you do: you’re blind.
TIR. Still, you see how down here among the dead my vision is better than
yours.
BAS. I grant that here you have eyes and ears and a tongue; but among the
living you perceive nothing.
TIR. But you so perceived matters above that you could never turn your
mind to those here below.
BAS. I have observed, Tiresias—and I don’t want you to think I say this
without rancor—that all along you have been poking fun at the wars
of princes with rustic jokes and laughing at matters of the utmost
gravity.
TIR. I think all princes deserve respect and obedience no matter what they
are like; beyond that, unreserved goodwill and the generous favor
of everyone are owed only to those who are good. But what do you
think should be done, most urbane and—to use language you are
delighted to hear—most courtly little Flatterer? Do you want me to
listen gravely to childish nonsense, concur in stupidities and insan-
ities, hear of cruelties with approval? For you to become irritated

via John Gibbons
134 J.L. Vives
hoc novum est atque insolitum, qui etiam iis quos oderas eras blan-
dus. Nam te habere stomachum negare non possum, qui illius gratia
indigna egeris, passus sis, dixeris, audieris permulta. Sed profer ex
disciplina ista aulica reconditas istas atque admirabiles belligerandi
rationes et caussas. 5
30 BAS. Primum otii vitandi caussa: rogo te, quid faciet iuvenis princeps cum
iuventute nobili? Ludent scilicet aleam, sedebunt domi, compota-
bunt, saltabunt, scortabuntur? Ea est disciplina tua ut haec velis iuve-
nes principes exercere? Ergo optimum et praeclarum opus quaerunt
quo occupentur: bellum. 10
TIR. Midicam rationem audivistis, quasi tertium nihil sit, aut illa agere aut
bellum facere. Quin potius consiliis intersunt? Prudentes audiunt?
Dant operam praeceptis sapientiae? Discunt populum bene et sa-
pienter regere? Ea denique meditantur quis civitates et regna, quo-
rum tutelam susceperunt, quiete ac feliciter gubernentur? Nam ex 15
bello caedes, rapinae, incendia et, propter impunitatem, scelera
omnia nascuntur; in pace vero bonae artes validae ac pollentes sunt.
Hoc est principum munus, hoc nobilitatis, utile populis et gentibus,
gratum Deo. Hoc ego scio gentilis: tu ignoras Christianus?
BAS. Ista Christiana? Audis, Tiresia? Utere ad eiusmodi beluas dictis sanc- 20
tarum litterarum, vel auctoritate Christi. Intelligis eos praesentibus
commodis, non veneratione ulla Dei aut respectu virtutis atque hone-
statis, moveri?
MIN. Nunc nihil miror esse ex vobis qui Turcam non abominentur, cum
Christiani nomine, mente et cogitatione tam alieni sitis a Christo ut 25
nec pudeat talia ex impotentia affectus proloqui, et quidem ad tribu-
nal hoc. Exspecta finem colloquii. Senties quanti sint Christiana haec
momenti, et quantum illis tribui decuerat in vita.
31 TIR. Nihil est, Minos: mea sunt rusticana, ista sunt urbanitatis cuiusdam
et salium. 30
6 otii vitandi caussa W, Cr, V: otii vitendi causa B 18 principum munus, hoc nobilitatis W,
Cr, V: principum munus, hoc nobilitas B 20–23 BAS. Ista Christiana? Audis, Tiresia? Utere ad
eiusmodi beluas dictis sanctarum litterarum, vel auctoritate Christi. Intelligis eos praesenti-
bus commodis, non veneratione ulla Dei aut respectu virtutis atque honestatis, moveri? MIN.
Nunc nihil miror esse scr. BAS. Ista Christiana? Audis, Tiresia? TIR. Utere ad eiusmodi beluas
dictis sanctarum litterarum, vel auctoritate Christi. Intelligis eos praesentibus commodis, non
veneratione ulla Dei aut respectu virtutis atque honestatis, moveri? MI. Nunc nihil miror esse
W, B, V: BAS. Ista Christiana? Audis, Tiresia? Utere ad eiusmodi beluas dictis sanctarum lit-
terarum, vel auctoritate Christi. Intelligis eos praesentibus commodis, non veneratione ulla
Dei aut respectu virtutis atque honestatis, moveri? Nunc nihil miror esse ex vobis qui Turcam
non abominentur, &c. Cr

via John Gibbons
with someone is new and uncommon; you used to be charming even

to people you hated. Indeed, I cannot deny that you feel spite, under
the influence of which you have committed, suffered, spoken, and
heard a great many indignities. But show us from your courtly train-
ing those mysterious and commendable reasons and motives for bel-
ligerency.
BAS. First: to avoid idleness. I ask you: What will a young prince do with his 30
noble youth? Will they play dice, sit around at home, drink together,
dance, chase whores? Is this your idea of education, wanting young
princes to carry on these pursuits? That’s why they seek an excellent
and renowned work with which to occupy themselves: war.
TIR. You have given ear to a Midas-like plan,68 as if there is no third choice:
either do what you describe, or go to war. Why don’t they engage in
deliberations, listen to the prudent, pay attention to precepts of wis-
dom, and study how to rule the people well and sagaciously? In short,
why don’t they ponder the ways in which the cities and kingdoms
they have undertaken to protect might be governed in peace and pros-
perity? For from war are born slaughter, plunder, conflagrations, and
owing to impunity, all kinds of crime; in peace, the fine arts are vigor-
ous and influential. This is the gift of princes, of nobility, beneficial to
peoples and nations, pleasing to God. I know this and I am a pagan:
you are a Christian, and are you ignorant of it?
BAS. Are these things Christian? Are you listening, Tiresias? With brutes
of this kind you are using words from holy scripture, or the author-
ity of Christ. Do you realize that they are moved by the advantage of
the moment, not by any veneration of God or respect for virtue and
honor?
MIN. It no longer surprises me that some of you do not detest the Turk,
seeing that though Christian in name, you are in heart and mind so
alienated from Christ that you are not ashamed to speak with such
reckless passion, even before this tribunal. Get ready for the end of
this interview. You will experience how important these Christian
realities are, and how much credence should have been given them
in life.
TIR. It doesn’t matter, Minos. My province is the countryside; these are 31
matters of city life and taste.
68 Alluding to Flatterer’s descent from Midas. See #2 above.

via John Gibbons
136 J.L. Vives
BAS. Bona venia, Minos: dico Christum non tollere quominus principes
sint principes, et nobiles nobiles.
TIR. Vult quidem Christus principem esse principem at non virum malum,
nobiles esse nobiles sed non impios homines, qualis es tu qui tale ver-
bum effudisti. 5
MIN. Dic alias causas, si habes.
BAS. Quid vis me miserum dicere? Non possum prae maerore, territus
minis tuis et tanto praeiudicio iudicis ipsius.
MIN. Licebit tibi caussam dicere; interea haec agamus. Effunde alia in
meam gratiam, quo manifestius tu ipse dementiam tuam agnoscas. 10
BAS. Audies iam Minos caussam quam confutare Tiresias non poterit, nec
a mea, ut tu vis, dementia profectam; sed a senibus quibusdam, quos
principes in consiliis habent, quosque permultum de sapientiae no-
mine venerantur. Bello quaeritur gloria; tum conservatur amplitudo
imperii, etiam augetur. Iubentur principes respicere maiores suos, 15
cuius sint nominis. Quam immortalis gloriae illi qui dicionem auc-
tiorem reliquerunt quam acceperint! Quam ignobiles vilesque qui
minorem! Simul in testimonium magna adducunt nomina et vetu-
state consecrata: Alexandros, Iulios, Pompeios. Te etiam inter alios
numerant, Scipio, et tanto magis debere anniti si quid habeat iuris 20
ut suum recuperet. Habes etiam Tiresia quod in hoc cavilleris?
32 TIR. Est quod in libris Mysteriorum legitur: A senibus egressa est iniquitas.
Tametsi non credo eundem in modum senes omnes consulere, sed
tantum eos vel quibus quaestui est bellum, vel de quibus merito dica-
tur, Bis pueri. Omnes isti tui Alexandri et Iulii et Philippi et Pompeii 25
strenui sunt latrones: quod gentiles neque ignoravimus neque dissi-
mulavimus. Quanto satius esset cogitare quemadmodum parta rege-
rentur, quam quemadmodum pararentur nova. Augustum Caesarem,
cum Alexandri res in oriente gestas legeret, admiratum ferunt, non
reputasse Alexandrum cum animo suo qua ratione ac via quaesita 30
conservaret ac regeret, sed tantum quomodo quaesitis alia adderet.
22 A senibus egressa est iniquitas] Vulg. Dan. 13,5 egressa est iniquitas de Babylone a senibus
25 Bis pueri] Erasm.adag. LB II, 195C bis pueri senes
13 quosque permultum de sapientiae Cr, B, V: quousque permultum de sapientiae W

via John Gibbons
BAS. Begging your pardon, Minos, I hold that Christ did not deny prince-
hood to princes and nobility to nobles.
TIR. Indeed, Christ wills a prince to be a prince, but not a villain; nobles
should be nobles, but not scoundrels like you, who have spewed out
such an opinion.
MIN. Present other reasons, if you have any.
BAS. Alas! What would you have me say? I cannot speak for grief, fright-
ened by your threats and by the firm prejudice of the judge himself.
MIN. You will have leave to plead your case; meanwhile here is what we will
do. Pour out everything with my indulgence, so that you can person-
ally acknowledge your lunacy more plainly.
BAS. You will now hear, Minos, a defense which Tiresias will not be able
to refute, which comes not from my lunacy, as you call it, but from
certain elders whom princes retain for advice and whom they vener-
ate most highly for the renown of their wisdom. In war glory is sought;
thereby, the size of the realm is preserved and even increased. Princes
are commanded to honor their forebears, whatever their reputation
may be. How imperishable is the glory for those who left their ter-
ritory larger than they inherited it! How base and contemptible are
they who left it smaller! At the same time, as evidence they produce
mighty names hallowed by antiquity: Alexander, Julius, Pompey. They
even include you among others, Scipio; and one is bound to strive all
the more if he has the right to recover what is his own. Do you have a
quibble to offer in reply to this, Tiresias?
TIR. What we read in the books of the Mysteries is true: ‘From old men 32
has iniquity come forth.’69 However, I do not believe all elders give
counsel of that same kind, but only those for whom there is profit
in war, or about whom one rightly says, ‘Boys twice over.’70 All those
Alexanders, Juliuses, Philips, and Pompeys of yours are hard-working
bandits; we pagans were not ignorant of this, nor did we pretend oth-
erwise. Think what greater satisfaction would come from considering
how lands already acquired should be governed, than how new acqui-
sitions should be accumulated! They say that when Augustus read of
the exploits of Alexander in the east, he was surprised that Alexander
had not pondered in his heart the rationale and method by which he
would preserve and rule what he sought, but only how to add other
69 Vulg. Daniel 13, 5.

70 See Erasmus, adag., ASD II.1, 436: ‘Bis pueri senes’ (‘Old men are children twice over’).

via John Gibbons
138 J.L. Vives
Scipio, huius nepos, cum censor esset, noluit in solemni carmine,

sicut erat moris, precari: Dii augete rempublicam, sed: Conservate.
Satis, inquit, habemus auctam si modo conservetur. Iam quae gloria
est cum tanta strage auxisse?
33 Et interdum iuveni tam regendi imperito ut domui mediocri non 5
satisfaceret, regnum unum non sufficit. Alia conatur adiungere non
quae administret, sed quae possideat, cum deberet aliis cedere de suo,
si tantum haberet mentis ut quod onus sustineat intelligeret. Nam ista
vetera iura, quid aliud sunt quam vivae radices unde alia ex aliis suc-
crescunt bella, nisi simul radix ipsa oblivione obruta exstinguatur? O 10
quanti ea regibus et populis constant! Duo mediusfidius regna, quale
illud est quod petitur, iis ipsis expensis possent emi, ut praeteream
eos qui pro caussa ceciderunt, civitates excisas, depopulatos ingentes
tractus agri optimi et feracissimi. Si tu non recusares per tot hominum
mala regnare, non miror sic de Christo sentire te. Nec excutio quam 15
vana sunt iura ista vetusti alicuius tituli.
34 SCIP. O si nunc veteres illi reviviscerent Romani, qui orbem totum ab usque
Gadibus ad Euphratem et Tigrim amnem per fetialem et patrem
patratum repeterent!
BAS. De vobis multo diversa ratio, qui armis quaesita armis perdidistis. 20
SCIP. Quasi aliud sit hoc tempore dicionum omnium ac regnorum ius! Sed
volo et ipse paucula de bello verba facere, a puero habitus atque edu-
catus inter arma, et in ipsis prope castris natus, quique ductu atque
auspiciis meis militare didicerim. Et loquar de iis regionibus in qui-
bus res gessi, nempe de Asia. Ad quam profectus sum nomine quidem 25
9 quam vivae radices V: quam vivi radices W, Cr, B 10–11 O quanti ea regibus W, B, V: O
qnāti ea regibus Cr

via John Gibbons
realms to his conquests.71 When Scipio, the grandson of Scipio here

present, was censor, he declined in the solemn chant to pray, as was
customary, ‘Gods, increase our republic’, but rather, ‘Conserve.’72 ‘We
have’, he said, ‘sufficient increase as long as it is preserved.’ Now what
glory is there in increase with large scale slaughter?
Meanwhile, for a young man so inexperienced in ruling that he 33
could not successfully manage a small household, one kingdom is not
enough; he endeavors to add more kingdoms, not to govern but to
possess them, when he ought to be ceding the supervision of his own
realm to others, if only he had enough sense to understand what bur-
den he could carry. For what are those ancient rights but living roots
from which rise other wars upon wars, unless that very root is buried
in oblivion and obliterated? And at such a terrible cost to kings and
subjects! I swear that two kingdoms like the one under attack could
be bought for the price involved, not counting the cost of those who
fell for the cause, the cities ruined, the vast tracts of fine and produc-
tive field left desolate. If you would not refuse to reign by means of
this mass of human suffering, I don’t wonder that you think of Christ
as you do. And I refrain from discussing how empty are those rights
based on some dusty title.
SC. Oh if only those Romans of old were alive! They would be winning 34
back the whole world from Cadiz to the Euphrates and the Tigris,
directed by the fetial and the pater patratus.73
BAS. There are many who have a much different judgment of you; what
you gained by force you lost by force.
SC. As if there is some other law for all powers and kingdoms today!
But I wish to add a few words about war, having lived and been
raised in the midst of arms, practically born right in camp, and hav-
ing learned warfare as a commander and under my own auspices. I
shall speak of regions where I was in command, namely Asia. I set
out for Asia as a lieutenant on the staff of my brother Lucius, but in
71 Plutarch, Romanorum apophthegmata: Moralia, 207D, ed. Loeb, 1949, vol. 3, p. 233.
72 Valerius Maximus 4,1,10; Scriptores historiae Augustae, Maximus & Balbinus 17,8. This
was Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus Aemilianus, adopted grandson of Scipio Afri-
canus, destroyer of Carthage in 146 and censor in 142BCE.
73 Fetiales were a college of priests charged with ritual declaration of war. See Livy 1,24.
The pater patratus pronounced the relevant oath.

via John Gibbons
140 J.L. Vives
Lucii fratris legatus, re autem atque administratione imperator. Si

Europae principes odio inter se caeci, discordia furentes, arma a Chri-
stianis vellent in Turcam convertere, omnia quae expetunt prolixius
assequerentur et copiosius. Nec minus sese exercerent, sed iucundius:
quippe contra homines alienissimos, procul dissitos, hostes religio- 5
nis suae ac nominis, quos non aliter viderentur sibi persequi atque in
venatu feram.
35 Iam exercitui praeda opimior et opulenta stipendia, nempe ex
lata Turcae dicione, et divite Asia: tum principibus occasio ac mate-
ria imperii proferendi, in tantis maris ac terrarum spatiis. Si quis 10
est inter eos auri et divitiarum cupidus, huic ego ditia illa common-
strabo spolia Graeciae, Thraciae, Macedoniae, Ponti, Moesiae, Pan-
noniae, Aegypti, Syriae, omnium denique gentium a Turca tot con-
tinuis successibus devictarum. Praeterea opes illas Asiae, infinitas,
incredibiles. Vultis quantae sint audire? His solis ingentes ac immensi 15
exercitus nostrae civitatis sustentabantur. Si mihi non habetis fidem,
Ciceronem huc adducam, hominem vobis bene notum. Non vide-
ram eum quidem apud superos: sed hic omnes mutuo novimus: At
imperium, dicionem, regnum mavult quis, haec spectat, haec expe-
tit. Quid malum dementia haec est, de X aut XII passuum milibus, 20
ducentis, tercentum annis inter se digladiantur? Dant damna atro-
cissima et accipiunt; vexati, perditi, veniunt ad pacem. Nemo est qui
non maius et opulentius regnum in Graecia atque Asia brevi tempore
pararet sibi, quam id, unde esset ad bellum egressus, ut periculum
esset ne facile veteribus nova permutaret. Nemo in tam diffuso impe- 25
rio et late patenti parum posset occupare, cumulo liceret accipere, et
plena manu.
36 At in ratione belli haeret quis? Eam ego explicabo, non modo ex
iis quae illic gessimus, sed quae vidi, audivi, legi. Habet Turca in
Asia patrias opes, minorem Asiam, quae continetur Euxino, Propon- 30
tide, Hellesponto, usque ad sinum Issicum, ad orientem Tauro monte
plus minus. Neque enim ad vivum reseco. Accesserunt patris victoria
21 ducentis, tercentum annis W, Cr, B: ducentis, tercentis annis V

via John Gibbons
reality and responsibility I was the general.74 If the princes of Europe,

blinded by mutual hatred, frenzied with quarreling, were to choose
to turn their weapons away from Christians and against the Turk,
they would attain everything they desire more amply and abundantly.
They would toil no less, but more happily; against men far differ-
ent from them, scattered at a distance, enemies of their religion and
name, whom they would think they were pursuing just as they would
a wild animal on a hunt.
Further, the army’s loot will be more bountiful and the pay gen- 35
erous, coming from the Turk’s widespread empire and the riches of
Asia. Besides, for the princes, there are opportunity and resources for
extending empire over vast spaces of land and sea. If any of them
is greedy for gold and wealth, to him I shall show the rich spoils of
Greece, Thrace, Macedonia, Pontus, Moesia, Hungary, Egypt, Syria,
and finally all the nations subdued by the Turk in his long train of suc-
cesses. Plus, there are the riches of Asia, infinite, incredible. Do you
wish to hear how great they are? By these alone the vast and immense
armies of our state were sustained. If you don’t believe me I will sum-
mon Cicero, who is well known to you. I had not seen him among
the living, though here we all share his acquaintance: ‘But empire,
command, kingdom—people want these things, aim for them, pur-
sue them.’75 Curses! What madness is this, that people fight each other
over ten or twelve miles for two or three hundred years? They deal and
absorb vicious blows; harassed, ruined, they sue for peace. There is
no one who could not quickly acquire for himself a bigger and richer
realm in Greece and Asia than the one for which he had set out for
war, and do so untroubled by the risk that he would easily be trad-
ing the old for the new. No one could gain merely a small conquest in
such a scattered and widespread empire; one would be at liberty to
grab vast regions with a free hand.
But does any of you hesitate about the reason for war-making? I 36
will explain it, not only from the deeds we performed there, but from
what I have seen, heard, and read. The Turk rules his ancestral Asian
holdings: Asia Minor, which is composed of the Black Sea coast, the
Propontis, and the Hellespont all the way to the bay of Issus, and on
the east, more or less to the Taurus range, without specifying exactly.
74 Livy (37,34,45) alludes to the dominant role played by Scipio Africanus while serving
as legate to his brother, the consul Lucius Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus in 190 in the cam-
paign against Antiochus III of Syria.
75 Source uncertain.

via John Gibbons
142 J.L. Vives
Aegyptus et Syria, Sultano eiecto. Tum in Europa a Byzantio Thraciae,

quae nunc est illius gentis regia, cum maiorum fuerit Prusia Bithy-
niae, ad Istrum et Pannoniam, mare Adriaticum, Ionium, Aegaeum,
provincias quae sunt dudum a Polypragmone commemoratae. Vires
et totum exercitus robur est illi a Moesia, Thracia, Graecia, Macedo- 5
nia, et iis regionibus quas homines Christiani incolunt. Ab illis parvos
liberos abstrahit, quos cogit Christum abnegare; hinc militiae assue-
facit. Mamelucos vocant, robur copiarum praecipuum. Hi coacti et
inviti gravissimo domino serviunt, translati in superstitionem alie-
nam a parentum suorum religione ac pietate, et ab ea illa qua ipsi 10
initiati a primo atque imbuti fuerant. Ergo istos, si metus potentiae
non contineat, quis credat facturos, quod nunc inviti ac repugnan-
tes faciunt? Graecia ipsa et Christianae regiones non modo servitio
tanto oppressae; sed quod iniquius est, ereptis ad impietatem liberis,
nihil aliud quam nomen Christiani exercitus ad excutiendum iugum 15
exspectant; quod ipsi sine aliqua vestrorum armorum spe aggredi non
audent, utique nec valent. Nam ad primum motum, firmis per urbes
arcesque a Turca dispositis praesidiis, antequam arma induere et coa-
dunari Christiani homines possent, a praesidiariis militibus concide-
rentur. Vobis est opus qui primam illam praesidiorum vim non exci- 20
piatis modo sed debilitetis, confringatis.
37 Mameluci ad patriam, ad parentes, avos, fratres, sorores, et Chri-
stianos homines transfugerent. Sed volo ne transeant; tutentur, pro-
pugnent sane tyrannum suum: modo excluso illi a Christianis natio-
nibus supplementa ab Europa non mittantur. In qua ille non ignorat 25
se velut in alieno solo consistere, fultum et innixum metu atque imbe-
cillitate illarum gentium, et occupatis ac implicitis inter se Christianis
principibus. Ad primum vero belli a vobis illati motum, nihil minus
quam se Europae auderet credere, velut alienis et natura hostibus,

via John Gibbons
Egypt and Syria were added by his father’s conquest; the sultan was
cast out.76 Then, in Europe from Byzantium to Thrace, now the seat of
that empire’s power, where Prusias of Bithynia ruled in antiquity, and
on to the Danube and Hungary, and the Adriatic, Ionian, and Aegean
Seas, just now mentioned by Busybody. The Turk’s strength and the
whole strength of his army spreads from Moesia, Thrace, Greece,
Macedonia, and those regions inhabited by Christians. From these
lands he abducts little children, whom he forces to deny Christ, then
trains them for warfare. They call them Mamelukes, the crack troops
of his army.77 Coerced and unwilling, they serve a harsh master, con-
verted to a superstition alien to their parents’ religion and devotion,
the very faith in which they themselves had been baptized and reared.
And so, if fear of the regime does not restrain them, who can believe
that they will keep doing what they do now unwillingly and with
abhorrence? Greece herself and the Christian lands are not merely
crushed by grinding servitude; but what is worse, with their children
dragged away to impiety, they long for nothing other than the name
of a Christian army to throw off their yoke. This they dare not, indeed
they cannot undertake without some hope of your armed support.
For at the first maneuver, with strong contingents located throughout
cities and forts by the Sultan, before Christian forces could arm them-
selves and assemble, they would be cut to pieces by the already sta-
tioned soldiers. It is your responsibility not merely to sustain that first
shock of those detachments, but wear them down and shatter them.
The Mamelukes would flee across to their homeland, to parents, 37
grandparents, brothers, sisters, and Christian people. But I want them
not to take flight, but protect and defend their tyrant, only so long as
no aid is forthcoming to them from Europe from Christian nations. In
this case the Turk is not unaware that he is standing, so to speak, on
alien soil, propped and supported by the fear and weakness of those
nations, with Christian princes subdued and mixed in with them.
Then at the first sign of the war that you begin, the last thing he would
do is to dare trust the Europeans, as aliens and hostile by nature; he
76 In 1516–1517, Sultan Selim I, Suleiman’s father, took Syria from the Mameluke sultanate
and ended Mameluke rule in Egypt.
77 Vives confuses janissaries, the troops recruited from Christian boys, with the Mame-
lukes, a Muslim military caste that ruled Egypt until their overthrow in 1517. On the
janissary abductions see also Vives, De conditione vitae Christianorum sub Turca (On the
Condition of Christians’ Lives under the Turk), VOO 5:447–460 (457) and George 2014:510,
512–513.

via John Gibbons
144 J.L. Vives
quosque intelligit se oppressos atque invitos sub imperio suo conti-

nere. Itaque in Asiam reciperet se, ad fontem atque originem suarum
opum, copiarum, dicionis, regni atque imperii aviti. Eat sane: dii id
faxint. Transferetur illuc bellum.
38 Numquam Europa in Asiam est ingressa quin eam ceperit et tenu- 5
erit; numquam Asia in Europam quin maxima sua clade repulsa sit.
Documento sunt Miltiades et campus Marathonius, Themistocles ad
Salaminam insulam, Lucius Sulla ad Chaeronaeam, quibus pugnis
non cum multis Asianorum milibus, sed cum multis centenis mili-
bus, non multa Europicorum hominum milia signa contulerunt. Iam 10
de Asia, ut praeteream bellum illud famosissimum Graecorum cum
Priamo et Troianis, populus Atheniensis colonias in ora Asiae habuit
XII, urbes insignes, et Asiae totius, sive populorum frequentia sive
opum copia et viribus, facile principes. Galli eam partem tenuerunt
quae nunc de illorum nomine est Galatia. Alexander paucis annis 15
Asiam totam, non modo cui nunc Turca dominatur, sed usque ad
Indiam et Oceanum terris illis circumfusum, triginta bellatorum mili-
bus subegit. Frater meus uno proelio Tauro tenus, unde Asiatici cog-
nomen invenit. Gnaeus Pompeius exiguo tempore usque ad Euphra-
tem et ad Septentrionem feras et incultas nationes, quae vel nomini- 20
bus ipsis barbariem suam prae se ferrent. Caesar Dictator tribus horis
Pharnacem Mithridatis filium: ut triumpho adscriberet, veni vidi
vici. Omittam Ventidium Bassum, Tiberium Claudium, Traianum, et
alios permultos, qui in Asiam maximas res pari facilitate et felicitate
gesserunt. 25
39 Quo magis hominibus aetatis huius pudendum est, hoc suo tem-
pore accidisse quod antea nulla hominum memoria ne fando quidem
fuerat auditum. Magna atque horrenda nomina et numerosi exerci-
tus insonant auribus: Ionii, Paphlagones, Cilices, Pontici, Phoenices,
24 in Asiam maximas res W, Cr, B: in Asia maxima res V 27–28 ne fando quidem fuerat W,
B, V: nefando quidem fuerat Cr

via John Gibbons
realizes that he holds them under compulsion and against their will.
And so he would retreat into Asia, to the source and origin of all his
resources, troops, command, kinship, and ancestral empire. Let him
go: let the gods concur. The war will be transported there.
Never has Europe invaded Asia but that they captured and held 38
it; never has Asia invaded Europe without being repulsed with heavy
losses. Witness Miltiades and the plain of Marathon, Themistocles at
the island of Salamis, Lucius Sulla at Chaeronea;78 in these clashes
against not just many thousands but many hundreds of thousands of
Asians, a mere few thousand Europeans fought pitched battles. Now
as for Asia, omitting that legendary war of the Greeks with Priam
and the Trojans, the Athenian people had a dozen colonies on the
Asian coast, renowned cities; in all Asia, whether for density of pop-
ulation or abundance of resources and strength, they were the lead-
ers by far. The Gauls occupied that region which now goes by their
name, ‘Galatia’. Within a few years Alexander subdued all Asia; not
just the part the Turk now dominates, but all the way to India and
the ocean surrounding those lands, with thirty thousand warriors.
My brother conquered as far as the Taurus, winning the nickname
Asiaticus. Cnaeus Pompey in a short time conquered lands as far
as the Euphrates and, in the north, savage and uncultured nations
which even by their very names exhibited their barbarism.79 Caesar
as Dictator undid Mithridates’s son Pharnaces in three hours, so as to
record in his triumph, ‘I came, I saw, I conquered.’80 I pass over Ven-
tidius Bassus, Tiberius Claudius, Trajan, and numerous others who
accomplished mighty exploits against Asia with equal ease and suc-
cess.81
All the more must it shame the people of this era that in their 39
time, there occurred a thing never previously heard of, or even talked
about, in human memory. Great and terrifying names and numerous
armies resound in our ears: Ionians, Paphlagonians, Cilicians, Pon-
78 In 86 BCE against Mithridates and his allies.

79 In a campaign against Mithridates that evolved into a march through the eastern
Mediterranean coast, 66–62 BCE.
80 47 BCE, in Asia Minor.
81 Ventidius, sent by Antony, triumphed over the Parthians in 38BCE. In 35, the Emperor
Tiberius’s general Lucius Vitellius frightened the hostile Parthian king away and re-
placed him with one friendly to Rome (Tacitus, Annals 6,31–37). Trajan’s eastern con-
quests spread Roman domination all the way to the Persian Gulf (113–117CE).

via John Gibbons
146 J.L. Vives
Syri, Aegyptii: tum armatorum genera; hippotoxotae, pedites, equi-

tes levis armaturae, cataphracti; classes ingentes, quas nulli portus
capiant, vix mare ipsum; auri atque argenti copia incredibilis. Olim
haec omnia de Antiocho, rege terrae eiusdem, eadem et magnifica
magis iactata sunt in Aegaeo Achaiae, cum consilium esset multarum 5
illic gentium. Festivum est quod huic tantae orationi quam litteris
Titus Livius mandavit, Titus Quintius respondit: Rex, inquit, contra
peditum equitumque nubes iactat et consternit maria suis classibus.
Est autem res simillima cenae Chalcidiensis hospitis mei, hominis
et boni et sciti conviviatoris: apud quem solstitiali tempore comiter 10
accepti, cum miraremur unde illi eo tempore anni tam varia et tam
multa venatio, homo non, quam isti sunt, gloriosus, renidens: Condi-
mentis, ait, varietatem illam et speciem ferinae carnis ex mansuefacto
sue factam.
40 Hoc dici apte in copias regis, quae paulo ante iactatae sunt, posse 15
et in varia genera armorum et multa nomina gentium inauditarum:
Dacas enim et Medos et Cadusios et Elimaeos, viros omnes esse
haud paulo mancipiorum melius, propter servilia ingenia, quam mili-
tum genus. An vero in militum numero sitam esse victoriam credi-
tis? Quadraginta pugnatorum milia sumo mihi delectorum, quales in 20
Africam transportavi; equidem non tanto numero cum Hannibalem
7–19 Rex … contra peditum equitumque nubes … ingenia quam miltum genus] Liv. 35,49,5–
8 16 et in varia genera] Liv. 35,49,8 varia enim genera 17 viros omnes esse] Liv. 35,49,8 Suros
omnes esse
2 cataphracti W, B, V: cataphratti Cr 7 Titus Quintius respondit W, B, V: Titus Quintius

responderit Cr 15 ante iactatae sunt W, B, Cr: ante iactata sunt V 17 Elimaeos, viros omnes
W, Cr, B: Elimaeos, Syros omnes V

via John Gibbons
tians, Phoenicians, Syrians, Egyptians.82 And classes of armed men:

mounted archers, footsoldiers, light-armed cavalry, cataphracts;83
vast fleets which no harbors, nor scarcely the sea itself could contain;
unbelievable stores of gold and silver.84 Once all this was boasted of
Antiochus, king of the same region;85 likewise more magnificently
at Achaea on the Aegean, when there was a council of many peo-
ples.86 Titus Quinctius’s response to this inflated harangue, preserved
by Livy, is quite amusing. ‘The King,’ he said, ‘boasts about clouds of
cavalry and foot soldiers against us and covers the sea with his fleets.
The situation reminds me of a dinner given at Chalcidice by my host,
a cheerful and learned party companion. We were invited around the
time of the solstice, when we wondered where he obtained such var-
ied and abundant game at that time of year. The man, not a braggart
like these fellows, smiled and replied that the variety and splendid
appearance of the “wild game” was prepared from tame pig flesh with
seasoning.’
The same could be aptly applied to the troops of the King which 40
have just been extolled and to the varied types of armament and
numerous names of unknown nations: the Dacians, Medes, Cadu-
sians, and Elymaeans,87 all men who were barely better than slaves,
owing to their servile character rather than that of soldiers. Or tell
me: Do you believe victory is determined by the number of soldiers?
I take with me forty thousand picked fighters whom I have brought
over from Africa, and I had not even that many when I defeated Han-
82 Scipio is evidently sarcastic in saying that the ‘Great and terrifying names and numer-
ous armies’ confronting moderns were ‘never previously heard of, or even talked about,
in human memory’, since he goes on to recall that the very same alarming reports were
made of Antiochus’s ancient force. Scipio uses the Quinctius anecdote to prove that
moderns’ shame, implicitly caused by fear of enemy hordes, is unwarranted. In any
event, the first sentence of this section could have been more clearly put.
83 Heavily armed cavalry.
84 Scipio’s sarcastic exaggeration continues.
85 Tacitus (Histories 2,81) calls Antiochus IV of Commagene, a supporter of the new
Emperor Vespasian in 70 CE, ‘the wealthiest of the subservient kings.’
86 Antiochus III of Syria’s envoy met the legate Titus Quinctius Flamininus before an
assembly of Greeks in Achaea in 192 BCE. The envoy bragged about the power, size, and
variety of the King’s army; Quinctius replied with the speech cited here (Livy 35,48–
49).
87 Cadusians: a tribe of skilled warriors living near the Caspian Sea. Elymaeans: a tribe of
indistinct location, said by Strabo (11, p. 722) to have exacted tribute from the Parthians.

via John Gibbons
148 J.L. Vives
vici. Reliquum orbem hosti concedo, meliore mihi spe victoriae quo
illi plures fuerint. Quid enim aliud in tanta turba nisi alius alium pro-
trudit, et manus impedit ne libere atque expedite queat dimicare?
Utinam tot essent hostes, ut eis campus esset angustus. Non mora-
bor in re; nulli bonorum imperatorum aut ducum ignorata, praestare 5
mediocrem bonorum militum copiam bene instructorum quam tur-
bam illam regi inhabilem quae nec imperia possit accipere nec ser-
vare. Pugnetque ut sibi videatur quisque, non ut duci. Plurima sunt et
maxima exempla, nihil magis saluti fuisse in pugna quam mediocrem
numerum; et concinnum, nihil maiorem attulisse perniciem quam 10
ingentes illas et vastas copias. Ausim hoc confirmare, homo semper in
bellis versatus, rarissimo victores aliquos fuisse quia plures, nisi forte
notabilis sit paucitas. Quid quod domo licebit supplementa accersere
si sit opus? Sed non erit adversus tam imbellem hostem.
41 Dicet vero aliquis: Aliae sunt nunc res, alia tempora, alius Asiae sta- 15
tus. Neque hoc ipse nescio; sed animi, sed vires eaedem. Nam quod
Asiam dixi imbellem, hoc si vel inscitia vel nullo militaris rei usu con-
tingeret, utique mutare posse confiterer; sed quia naturae est, non
casus, corrigi utcumque potest, mutari penitus non potest. Aristoteles
enim, sapientiae assectator, et alii magni viri permulti quibus rerum 20
naturas caussasque perquirere curae fuit, memoriae prodiderunt for-
tissimam mundi gentem et animosissimam esse eam quae Europam
incolit; Asianos meticulosos homines et bello minime idoneos, femi-
nis similiores quam viris. Ut non modo Europa homines ceteris animo
15–16 alius Asiae status W, B, V: alius Asiae statns Cr

via John Gibbons
nibal.88 I concede the rest of the world to my foe: the more of them
there are, the greater my expectation of victory. What happens in such
a mob, except that one soldier gets in another’s way and keeps the
troop from being able to fight freely and unencumbered? I would
wish there were so many enemies that their space gets crowded. I
won’t dwell on this: every good general or leader knows that a modest
complement of good soldiers well drilled is better than that rabble,
useless to the king, which knows neither how to accept orders nor
carry them out. Let each one fight as he, not the leader, thinks best.
There are many convincing examples to show that nothing has done
more for safety in fighting than moderate numbers; correspondingly,
nothing has resulted in greater jeopardy than huge, clumsy armies.
I could presume to illustrate this, being constantly engaged in war:
very rarely did armies win by superior numbers, unless the opponents
were extremely few. And what of the freedom to summon reinforce-
ments from home in case of necessity? But no such need will trouble
us against so unwarlike an enemy.
Someone may say: The situation is different now, the times are dif- 41
ferent, the condition of Asia is different. Of this I am not unaware; but
spirit and military strength remain the same. For when I said Asia was
unwarlike, if were a matter of ignorance or a lack of military experi-
ence, I would readily agree that change is possible; but since it is a
question of nature, not chance, no matter how it can be amended,
it cannot be fundamentally changed. Aristotle, the acolyte of wis-
dom, and numerous other great men whose calling was to plumb the
nature and causes of things, gave us to remember that the bravest and
most energetic people on earth are those who inhabit Europe; Asians,
timid and completely unsuited to war, are more like women than
men.89 Not only does Europe produce people superior in vigor and
88 At Zama in Africa in 202 BCE.

89 Hippocrates, On Airs, Waters, Places 16: ‘The chief reason why Asiatics are less war-
like and more gentle in character than Europeans is the uniformity of the seasons,
which show no violent changes either towards heat or towards cold, but are equable.’
Trans. W.H.S. Jones: Hippocrates, Vol. 1 (Loeb), p. 115. Aristotle, Politics, 1327b: ‘The peo-
ples of cold countries generally, and particularly those of Europe, are full of spirit, but
deficient in skill and intelligence; … the peoples of Asia are endowed with skill and
intelligence, but are deficient in spirit; and this is why they continue to be subjects and
slaves.’ Trans. Ernest Barker, Aristotle 1961:296. Isocrates (Areopagiticus 75, see Vives’s
translation below) claims a similar contrast of nature between the Athenians and their
historic Asiatic foes.

via John Gibbons
150 J.L. Vives
ac viribus praestantiores edat, sed feras quoque; quippe leones qui

in Europa nascuntur plus habent animi quam Punici. Canes etiam,
lupi, et reliquae animantes, tametsi Africae plus ostendant ore ipso
ferociae. Itaque licet Turca fortissimos haberet aliunde collectos exer-
citus, magnam victoriae spem in ignavia ducum haberem collocatam, 5
qui omnes Asiani sunt. Quippe malim, ut ille dixit prudentissime,
exercitum cervorum duce leone quam leonum duce cervo.
42 Obiiciat mihi aliquis experimenta saeculi huius quo Asiani Euro-
pae partem subegerunt. Ceu vero numquam sit fando auditum,
meliores a peioribus esse quandoque superatos, vel propter ipsorum 10
discordias, vel contemptu inferiorum, aut quod incauti in periculum
ruerunt. Denique casu aliquo, ut nobis ad Caudinas Furcas teme-
rarius inter montes ingressus, ad Trasumenum circumfusa nebula
exitio fuit. Quid si quis post tres ingentes conflictus, ad Trebiam, et
eum quem modo nominavi Trasumenum, mox ad Cannas, inferiores 15
pronuntiasset vires nostri populi quam Carthaginiensium, iussisset-
que nos a Carthaginiensibus pacem supplices petere? Nae ille, neque
nostris neque hostium viribus atque opibus expensis, celeri nimis
desperatione Romanis rebus in aeternum valedixisset; ut Lucius
Metellus et alii quidam iuvenes cogitarant, quos ego ab eo furore revo- 20
cavi. Nos temeritas nostrorum imperatorum afflixerat. Simul duces
populo cautiores elegimus, meliore loco stetit nostra res, et Cartha-
ginem cepi. Europae discordia, primum inter Constantinopolis prin-
cipes, Asiam Turcis tradidit; hinc in Thraciam aditum patefecit. Tum
regum Europae dissidia et bella alia ex aliis renascentia, velut hydrae 25
capita, animum illi auxerunt ad effundendum se latius in Europam.
Res prosperas facile quivis etiam ignavissimus, cum se dant, accipit.
Nemo nescit clavum in tranquillitate regere. Tantis culpa vestra suc-
10–11 propter ipsorum discordias Cr, B, V: propter ipsorum dicordias W 23 Europae discor-
dia W, B, V: Europae discordiae Cr

via John Gibbons
courage, but wild animals also; in fact, lions born in Europe have more
spirit than those from Carthage. The same holds for dogs, wolves, and
other animals, even if those from Africa appear more ferocious. And
so, no matter if the Turk were to have the strongest armies gathered
from elsewhere, I would stake my hope of victory on the cowardice
of their leaders, all of whom are Asian.90 Certainly I would choose, as
that famous man said so wisely, an army of deer led by a lion over one
of lions led by a deer.
Someone might cite against me the experience of this age, in which 42
Asians have subjugated part of Europe. Indeed! As if no one ever
heard of instances where better peoples are sometimes overpowered
by their inferiors, either because of internal discord, or underestima-
tion of the inferiors, or because they rushed recklessly into danger.
Or, finally, by some trick of chance, as when our rash foray among
the mountains at the Caudine Forks91 and the fog that descended
at Trasimene spelled disaster. What if, after three major battles—at
the Trebbia, Trasimene which I just mentioned, and soon after at
Cannae—someone had declared our nation’s strength was inferior
to that of the Carthaginians, and had ordered us to go begging them
for peace?92 That man, at no cost in strength or resources to ourselves
or our enemy, in too hasty exasperation, would have bidden farewell
to the Roman enterprise, as Lucius Metellus and certain other youths
thought; but I restrained them from their folly.93 The recklessness of
our generals had weakened us. At once we chose more cautious lead-
ers for the people, our situation improved, and I captured Carthage.
The discord of Europe, at first among the leaders of Constantinople,
handed Asia to the Turks, then it opened the gate to Thrace. Next,
other quarrels and wars with other causes, like the heads of a hydra,
fed his interest in expanding further into Europe. When prosperity
presents itself, even the laziest man readily accepts. Everyone knows
how to handle the rudder in calm water. Through your own fault the
90 Colish (2009:6) remarks on the inconsistency in Vives’s portrayals of the Turks in

DEDBT. Here, in Scipio’s claim, ‘he … describes them as “Asians” indolent, unwarlike,
and overcivilized,’ versus their appearance elsewhere in the dialogue as ‘inhumane and
faithless, brutal and uncultivated barbarians’ (see 23, 26, and 28 above).
91 Against the Samnites: 321 BCE.
92 Three military debacles in Italy against Hannibal’s invasion (218–216BCE).
93 Lucius Caecilius Metellus was the ringleader of a group of young nobles ready to flee
Italy. Scipio broke in on their assembly, drew his sword, and terrified them into staying.
(Livy 22,53.)

via John Gibbons
152 J.L. Vives
cessibus facti sunt illi paulo audaciores. Corrigitur nonnumquam arte

aliqua naturae vitium, non tollitur: et si ars cesset, semper natura ipsa
quod suum est paulatim ad se retrahit, et tandem victa atque sublata
arte, sibi vindicat.
43 Paulum si reflarent venti, et odia atque iras vestras in illum trans- 5
ferretis, agnosceretis ilico Asianos animos. Detegerent res adversae,
atque explorarent mentes eas quas tanta felicitatis continuatio abdi-
dit et occultavit. Ibi declararent se non vi ac virtute sua sed culpa
vestra fortes et strenuos fuisse. Profecto aut ego sum militaris rei
omnino rudis, aut iis exercitibus, quos hoc tempore Polypragmon 10
esse in armis retulit in Italia et Germania, ne nunc res praeteritas
deplorem, sed illis ipsis, quicquid imperio et dominatu tenetur Turcae
potest expugnari ac subigi, velint modo anniti atque operam navare et
maneat bona fide concordia. Neque vero sic res Turcae occuparentur
ut Christianorum a Christianis, inter quos omnia quae armis devin- 15
cuntur atque occupantur plena controversiae, magno cum labore
custodiuntur. Quidquid semel est captum, id ab eo qui amisit et eius
heredibus in aeternum reposcitur; nullus litigii finis et certaminum.
Neque raro id contigit ut aliena invadens amittat sua, propterea quod
hic ferrum in ferrum incidit, et inter pares certamina sola morte 20
finiuntur. Cum Turca non est idem iuris neque periculum par. Illic
proelio qui vincet bello vicerit. Non est Asia quae semel amisso exer-
citu alterum reparare valeat, nisi forte invalidam atque inconditam
multitudinem mittat ut det manus, non ut conserat. Amplissima
atque ingentia operaepretia videtis. 25
44 Addite his omnibus praeclarum decus: sive prolatis imperii fini-
bus, et extremas nationes arma vestra sentire; maximis quoque rebus
gerendis, ingens vobis nomen latissime facere, quod meo quidem
tempore gloriosum in primis ac praedicandum censebatur; sive de-
tracto Europae populis metu ac servitio Turcae, ampliata etiam pie- 30
tate et propagata in tam multos. Nescio an idem Christo videatur, sed
certe hoc tolerabilius malum quam furor ille civilis dissidii.
TIR. Immo fraterni, quandoquidem omnes illi fratres vocantur et unum
profitentur patrem caelestem Deum; quamvis pietas sanctis monitis

via John Gibbons
Turks became a little bolder after their impressive successes. A natu-

ral shortcoming is sometimes rectified, never eliminated, by ingenu-
ity; and if ingenuity runs out, nature gradually draws back to herself
what is her own, and ultimately reclaims it by overcoming and sup-
planting ingenuity.
If the winds were to blow the other way and you redirected your 43
hate and your anger at the Turk, you would know those Asian hearts
for what they are. Hard times would expose them; they would exam-
ine those minds of theirs which such a long run of success has hidden
in the shadows. Then they would admit that they were strong and
vigorous owing not to their power and courage but to your failure.
Indeed, either I am totally ignorant of military affairs, or any terri-
tory held in the empire and dominion of the Turk can be seized and
subjugated by those armies who are right now, according to Busy-
body, active in Italy and Germany—I do not mean to complain about
past events, and yes, by those very armies—so long as they choose
to apply themselves to the task while genuine concord abides. Nor
would the Turks be taken over as would Christians by Christians,
among whom everything seized by force and claimed is full of contro-
versy and is retained by enormous labor. Once something is captured,
it is demanded back by the loser and his heirs ad infinitum; there is
no end to litigation and quarreling. And it is not a rare occurrence
that the invader loses his own possessions, since here sword matches
sword, and between equals strife ends only in death. With the Turk
neither the law nor the danger is the same. There, whoever wins the
battle wins the war. Asia is not a foe which once it loses an army can
raise another, unless perhaps it’s a feckless, untrained horde, suited
to go to war but not put up a fight. You are looking at far-flung and
colossal recompense.
To all this, add surpassing glory: whether it be by the expansion 44
of your princely boundaries, the impact of your forces on distant
nations, the accomplishment of unrivaled deeds, or the name you
make for yourself far and wide, which in my time was reckoned glo-
rious beyond all and worthy of acclaim; or by banishing the fear of
Turkish servitude from the peoples of Europe, broadening the faith
and propagating it among multitudes. I do not know whether this
would appeal to Christ, but certainly this is a more tolerable ill than
the idiocy of civil strife.
TIR. To be specific, fraternal strife, since the combatants are all brothers
and worship one God, the celestial father; and yet the faith actually

via John Gibbons
154 J.L. Vives
et exemplo vitae dilatatur atque augetur, non vi aut armis. Non pos-
sunt humanae mentes cogi aut trahi; adduci possunt.
45 MIN. Iam ingenti multitudine obruimur. Dic paucis Tiresia, quaeso te, quod
tandem existimas posse hisce malis remedium inveniri? Fortassis
curabimus consilium tuum per Mercurium perferendum ad superos. 5
TIR. Non puto esse consiliis locum; nam omnia saevae atque atroces ami-
corum affectiones occuparunt, nec consiliis est ullus aditus. Sed sen-
tentiam meam aperiam, et paucis, uti rogas. Primum omnium unica
Christianorum arma, solum praesidium, sed id fortissimum atque
inexpugnabile, est Christi sui tutela. Si is eos recipiat, invicti, invio- 10
labiles cunctis erunt nationibus ac gentibus. Sin reiiciat, quid aliud
fuerint quam praeda? Sed recipiet, modo velint ipsi. Nam ille expo-
situs est ac obvius iis qui ad ipsum redeunt. Recipiant oculos, intelli-
gant quantum habeant, quam invincibilem praesidem; ad eum rever-
tantur. Illum solum intentis atque inconniventibus oculis aspiciant. 15
Et non contenti solo Christianorum nomine, re ipsa atque operibus
tantae et tam praeclarae professioni satisfaciant. Pacem et veniam a
Christo petant ac precentur.
46 Hinc, quod unice illi placet, quodque est caput praeceptorum eius,
depositis bellis, odiis, simultatibus, rixis, dissidiis, bene inter se velint 20
ac mutuo ament. Non suis fidant viribus aut armis, sed Christo. Et
quantum ad humanam quidem diligentiam atque operam attinet,
haud aegre accepta hactenus plaga sanaretur si iuvenes duo, con-
tenti latissimis imperiis quae possident, amice inter se et concorditer
vivere animum possent inducere. Aut si regnum liberet augere, alie- 25
nissimum potius et pietatis hostem bello impeterent quam vicinum,
sanguine et mysteriorum initiatione coniunctum. Nam tertium illum
credo impedimento non futurum, quominus firma sit eorum concor-
dia. Qui etiam subsidium paulo quidem serius, nempe tanta terrarum
6–7 atroces amicorum affectiones W, Cr, B: atroces animorum affectiones V

via John Gibbons
spreads and grows by holy precepts and exemplary lives, not by the
force of arms. Human hearts cannot be compelled or constrained;
they can be induced.
MIN. Right now we are overwhelmed by a huge multitude. Tell us briefly, 45
Tiresias, I beg you: for goodness’ sake, what remedy do you think can
be found for these evils? Perhaps we shall arrange to have your advice
communicated by Mercury to the living.
TIR. I don’t think there is room for advice, seeing that the barbaric and
atrocious passions of friends have swept over everything and there
is no path that leads to counsel. But I will reveal my opinion and be
brief, as you request. First of all, the only armor for Christians, the
only refuge, but one that is mighty and impregnable, is the protec-
tion of Christ himself. If he accepts them they will be invincible and
invulnerable to all nations and peoples. But if he rejects them, what
else will they be but prey? Yet accept them he will, if only they will
it. The Turk is unprotected and exposed to those who take refuge in
Christ. Let them redirect their gaze and realize what a force they pos-
sess, how invincible their guardian; let them return to him. Let them
look to him with intense and watchful eye. And not content merely
to be called Christian, let them in fact and by their works fulfill that
high and glorious calling. Let them seek and pray for peace and par-
don from Christ.
Hence, let them fulfill that which particularly pleases him, and 46
is the fountainhead of his precepts: to lay aside wars, hatreds, con-
tentions, quarrels, and disputes, and practice mutual good will and
affection. Let them put their trust not in the force of arms but in
Christ. And insofar as human diligence and effort can achieve it, this
wound thus far so easily inflicted may be healed if those two youths,
content with the widespread realms they now possess, could bring
themselves to live together amicably and in harmony.94 Or, if it is
their desire to increase their dominions, let them attack the utter
alien, foe of our religion, rather than their neighbor with whom they
share bloodlines and baptism into the faith. For I am confident that
that third ruler will be no obstacle to their stable concord.95 He even
delivered what aid he could, although a little late owing to the vast dis-
tance of land and sea, but with a right and dutiful heart, all the way to
94 Reference to Francis I and Charles V, still early in their reigns.

95 Henry VIII.

via John Gibbons
156 J.L. Vives
et maris intercapedine, sed optimo ac pio animo in Pannoniam usque

per legatum misit, praestitit quod potuit. Et cum longissime a sensu
horum tumultuum absit, propter insulam ab orbe seiunctam, tamen
suae curae id bellum esse duxit in quo, in remotissimis quidem et
disiunctissimis regionibus, sed tamen de Christiani principis dicione, 5
adversus Mahumeticum ageretur.
47 Habent adhuc Christiani firmissimam Europae partem Germa-
niam. Discedant ab armis inter se; alioqui perierunt. Muniant, fir-
ment Germaniam arcibus, praesidiis, sed in primis consensu gentis;
futura inexpugnabilis, si is adsit. In hoc conspirent, ne ille potiatur 10
Germania. Aliter nihil restat spei quominus cedant illi possessione
occidentis, et in novum orbem magnis classibus perfugiant qui nolint
sub illius dominatu vivere. Neque illic eos patietur quietos agere,
homo cupiditatis atque ambitionis oestro percitus. Quid enim reli-
qui est quod obsistet ei, Germania innixo et fulto? Nugae omnia. 15
Piget dicere quam infirma sint reliqua adversus Germaniae et tot gen-
tium ac regnorum dominum. Fortissima quidem est omnium Europa;
sed quid iuvat si ille praestantissimam Europae partem possideret?
10 futura inexpugnabilis V: futura inexpugnabili W, Cr, B

via John Gibbons
Hungary through his envoy.96 And although he was far distant from
personal experience of these conflicts, living on an island separate
from the continent, still he considered himself responsible for that
war, which was being fought in very remote and isolated regions, but
nonetheless over the kingship of a Christian ruler against the Muslim.
Christians still control Germany, the most stable part of Europe. 47
Let them cease fighting each other; else they are done for. Let them
strengthen and stabilize Germany with forts and garrisons, but by all
means let them rely on the unity of the nation, which will be impreg-
nable if that unity remains. In this crisis let them plan together so that
the Turk does not take possession of Germany. Otherwise, there is no
hope left for those who refuse to live under the Turk’s domination
except to yield him the possession of the West, and take flight to the
new world in vast fleets. Nor will he allow them to live in peace even
there; he is a man spurred on by the passion of greed and ambition.
For what is left to stand in his way when he is fortified and grounded
in Germany? It’s all a waste. It’s a shame to remark how weak every-
thing else would be against a master of Germany in addition to all
those nations and peoples. Europe is indeed the strongest of all, but
what good does it do if he were to take over the finest part of Europe?
96 The ‘envoy’ was Sir John Wallop. See Botlik, ‘Henry VIII and the new Hungarian politi-
cal élite’, p. 124 and notes 10–11. In correspondence, Dr. Botlik cites Brewer, Letters and
Papers vol. IV./2, p. 1377, #3067, dated 26 April, 1527, Wallop to Wolsey. In that letter
Wallop reports his recent interview with Mary of Hungary, Ferdinand’s sister and by
then Louis II of Hungary’s widow. Wallop was carrying with him ‘bills of exchange’
from 1526 intended by Henry for Louis, which Wallop had brought too late for deliv-
ery to the ill-fated Hungarian monarch. Wallop also shared with Mary a letter from
Queen Katherine of Aragon confirming the transaction. Mary was overwhelmed with
gratitude at Henry’s generous albeit futile gesture. This April 1527 letter to Wolsey
demonstrates that Henry had indeed firmly committed himself to send material aid
to Louis in 1526, and that it came too late for implementation. Tiresias’s (i.e. Vives’s)
remark here squares well with the 1527 document #3067. I am indebted to Dr. Botlik,
who generously provided me with both a facsimile and a transcription of the #3067
manuscript. See also Brewer, op. cit. Vol. IV./2, p. 1011, #2260, June 19, 1526, a letter from
Giovanni Battista Sanga, Papal Secretary, to the Papal diplomat Uberto Gambara: ‘the
Pope considers himself greatly obliged to [Henry and Wolsey] for their contribution for
the preservation of Hungary, the peril of which is increasing. … Beseech the King and
Cardinal to put into effect what, like real princes, they have appointed for the succor
of that poor kingdom, as an example to others to do the same.’ Murphy 2018, espe-
cially p. 55, provides additional information on the political background to the meeting
between Wallop and Mary.

via John Gibbons
158 J.L. Vives
Nec sperent cessaturum Turcam aut quaesitis contentum, defuturum

suae occasioni quam illi Christianorum discordiae facilem praebent,
qui etiam ex Pannonia discedens reditum suum in proximum ver est
terris illis ac nationibus comminatus.
48 Ergo coeant in pacem primo quoque tempore, et in medium de 5
communi salute consultent, ne dum contentius pergunt certare, vic-
torem fessum, victum et fractum absumat communis hostis recens,
integer, validus. Sed nihil tale metuendum est si maneat inter Chri-
stianos firma et solida concordia, sine qua invicti et salvi esse non
possunt. Haec quidem sic Christus approbet, qui unus plus potest pol- 10
letque quam reliquus orbis universus; qui suos, ut bonos tuebitur, ita
deseret malos, hoc est alienos; nihilque desertis erit imbecillius, ut
nec illis fortius quos ipse in curam et tutelam suam receperit.
49 MIN. Putas haec eos Tiresia facturos, et tam bonis auscultaturos consiliis
atque adeo vaticiniis? 15
TIR. Aut facient, aut non facient.
MIN. Hic est mos tuus; sic numquam mentiere.
TIR. Idcirco eo utor more. Hoc vero confirmo tibi: si non fecerint, ventu-
rum aliquando tempus, utinam non brevi, quo vellent facta, utinam
non sero. 20
Dialogi, de Bello Turcico. FINIS.

Brugis. 1526. Mense Octobri.
9 sine qua invicti W, B, V: sine qua innicti Cr 10 Haec quidem sic Christus approbet B, V:
Haec quidem si Christus approbet W, Cr 17 Hic est mos tuus W Cr: Hic est mos tutus B, V
21 Dialogi de Bello Turcico FINIS. W: deest in Cr om. B, V

via John Gibbons
Let no one expect that the Turk will relent or be satisfied with what he
has acquired, or that he will pass up the easy opportunity which the
disputes of the Christians offer him; on departing from Hungary, he
has even threatened to return in the spring to those lands and nations.
Therefore let them gather in peace at the first opportunity and 48
deliberate together for the common safety; or while they are per-
sisting in their hot disputes, the common enemy, fresh, healthy, and
powerful, will sweep away an exhausted, defeated and broken victor.
But no such fear need be entertained if among the Christians a stable
and well-grounded concord remains, without which they cannot be
invincible and secure. May Christ thus approve this, who alone holds
more power and dominion than the rest of the whole world; who, as
he will protect the good, who are his own, so will he abandon the evil,
that is, the aliens. Nothing will be weaker than those he has deserted,
nor stronger than those whom he has taken under his care and pro-
tection.
MIN. Do you think, Tiresias, that they will do these things and heed such 49
good counsels and, in fact, prophecies?
TIR. Either they will, or they will not.97
MIN. This is your custom; in this way you will never be wrong.
TIR. That is why I follow this custom. But I can tell you this: if they do not,
the time will come, and I hope it’s far off, when they will wish they
had, and I hope it’s not too late.
End of the dialogue on the Turkish War.

Bruges: October 1526.
97 From Horace, Satires 2,5,59: ‘quidquid dicam aut erit aut non’ (‘Whatever I say either will
or will not come to pass’). Also used by Vives in his satiric dream introducing Cicero’s
Dream of Scipio SVSS 1989:23, and the discussion at ibid. p. 253.

via John Gibbons

Vives de Europae Dissidiis Et Bello Turcico

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(1) Introduction of characters. Waves of souls, victims of European wars, are

Cr, fols. xxiiir–xlivr; W, pp. 240–272; B II, 947–959; V VI, 452–481.

© koninklijke brill nv, leiden, 2019 | doi:10.1163/9789004400191_008

MINOS. TIRESIAS. BASILIUS COLAX. POLYPRAGMON. SCIPIO. VMBRAE.

3 umbrae W, B, V: deest in Cr 10 quaenam vestrum W, B, V: quae vestrum Cr 13 Methymnae

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Minos. Tiresias. Basilius Colax (Royal Flatterer).1 Polypragmon (Busybody).

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

BAS. Quale hominis prudentissimi quaesitum! Qui gererent? Principes et

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

3 See Vulg. John 13, 34–35.

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

mae, alii Scoti, alii Ocham; nam inter Lutheranos et Antilutheranos

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Mediolanensi duce honorifice dimissus et liberaliter adiutus, cepit

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Duke of Milan, he took Naples after a long siege, expelling René of

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

18 Europae partem coni. Tournoy: Euboeae partem W, Cr, B, V

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

POL. Aperuit Alpes Carolus.

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

POL. Charles crossed the Alps.

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

cumque expetisset praedam, et paulisper conquiescere dum eam

14 Fernando et Fernandulo W, B, V: Alphonso et Frederico Cr 17 periclitari de toto W, B, V:

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

a bit while safeguarding it, and stabilized it in support of his partisans

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Gallorum maiore. Pulsi sunt regno. Pauci qui ex conflictibus supere-

11–12 condicione cum Gallis W, B, V: coitione cum Gallis Cr

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

24 At the battle of the Garigliano, 1503–1504.

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

8 Philogalatos videris mihi W, B, V: Philoceltes videris mihi Cr 9 Non tam Philogalatos W,

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

POL. Dum in Germaniam ad ineundum principatum ex Hispania Carolus

5 pro quo pugnaret W, Cr, B: pro quo pugnare V

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

celeritate et compendiis viarum, maxima fuisset vel accepta ab eis

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

cuts in their retreat, they would have either suffered a catastrophe,

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

POL. Dimittitur Franciscus in Galliam, datis duobus parvis filiis obsidibus,

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

51 See Cicero, Pro Flacco 61.

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

18 POL. Turca mense hoc Danubium transgressus validissima manu Panno-

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

MIN. Quid furori similius?

20 Turcis impense formidabiles Cr: Turcis impensae formidabiles W, B, V

Edward V. George and Gilbert Tournoy - 9789004400191

MIN. What is more like madness?

55 Horace, Epistles 1,2,8; the subject of the sentence is the Iliad.