men have fallen behind dramatically less

men are dating having sex or even just

making as much money as their parents

did social media dating apps blatant

theft of financial opportunity and a

social shift to shaming men for being

ambitious and aggressive have created an

environment where guys feel lost

hopeless and lonely here to talk about

it is Professor Scott

[Music]

Gallow for the first time in US history

a man 30 years old who's largely judged

by his financial success is not doing as

well as his parents what went wrong so

there's a variety of of things that have

created this these atmospherics

so um some of them societal some of them

biological some of them economic we have

men mature later their prefrontal cortex

is literally less developed and it's

getting worse for some reason girls are

going through puberty sooner men or boys

is later in addition with uh the second

most single parent households of any

nation in the world with the exception

of Sweden what you have is this

increasingly prevalent single point of

failure for when men come off the tracks

and that is they lose a male role model

so what's interesting is if you look at

a single parent household and it's

usually about 88% of the time it's a

mother taking care of

children uh the girls have similar

outcomes similar College attendance go

on similar incomes similar levels of

depression boys become much more likely

to be incarcerated much less likely to

go to college much more likely to be

depressed it ends up that while boys are

physically stronger girls are

emotionally and mentally much stronger

so you have uh some societal factors

that are producing a lot of emotionally

weak men I think you have an education

system that is biased against boys in

boys only schools will have twice as

many recesses

as co-ed schools if you think about the

ideal student organize pleaser sit still

do your homework only speak when spoken

to you're basically describing the

attributes that come easier to people

born as women we're now we used to be we

used to be 6040 male to female in

colleges 40 years ago now we're 6040 and

it's probably going to be closer to two

to one women two to one women for every

male that graduates from college because

men drop out at a greater rate it used

to be a third of jobs required a college

degree now it's

2/3 so you end up with this kind of

Perfect Storm where we're producing a

tremendous number of economically and

emotionally

unviable um men and then something that

also impacts women is our economic

policies over the last 40 years in my

view have been just an elegant transfer

of wealth from young to old so the two

biggest tax deductions in America are

mortgage interest rate tax deduction and

capital gains who owns stocks and homes

uh people my age who rents and makes

their money from sweat or current income

young people so 40 years ago 19% of GDP

was controlled by people under the age

of 40 in terms of their wealth that's

been cut in half to 9% the average 70y

old is 72% wealthier than they were 40

years ago the average person under the

age of 40 is 24% less wealthy cost of

living adjustment for Social Security

last year increased

9%

the child tax credit which eliminated

40% of child poverty which is remarkable

somehow manages to get stripped out of

the infrastructure bill because who

needs who needs that money kids who

don't vote and young people so I think

there's been a perfect storm of

biological societal and economic

transfers and then we didn't talk about

societal I think that men have been

getting mixed messages I think we've

done a great job lifting women up um

focusing in trying to address some of

the injustices and biases that women

have had to endure for a long time and I

wouldn't say we've overcorrected but I

think that people uh don't have a

sympathetic ear or Society doesn't have

a sympathetic ear uh to young men when

we talk about young women are non-whites

and the substantial challenges they

still face we talk about resources and

the requirement or the need for

government intervention and social

programs when we talk about young men

failing you start using words like they

need to level up or if they were only

more in touch with their emotions or we

use words like

accountability so there's a lack of

empathy for young men and then into that

void slipped in some very um negative

voices I think that was sort of thinly

failed thinly veiled misogyny so now um

the conversation hasn't been that

productive until the last few years and

I would argue it's getting much more

productive that people are actually that

the data is just so overwhelming four

times as likely to be addicted uh three

times as likely to kill themselves 12

times as likely to be incarcerated I

mean the numbers just can't be ignored

and now we're having I think a much more

productive conversation around potential

solutions for how we level up young men

as a means of leveling up an entire

younger generation who my in my opinion

for the first time America is

consciously leaving

behind what's changed in the dialogue

because I agree with you it's gotten a

lot better what's now included in the

dialogue that was being left out before

that's made it more

productive well there was a gag reflex

and that was U because people felt what

was going on and they saw what was going

on and uh we weren't addressing it

because people were uh worried about

there was a general view that if you

were prom man that it was a zero some

game and that that meant automatically

you were anti- women and you had some

voices enter the space that were just

basically telling you it's not your

fault you need to treat women like

property you need to go get a

superar and trade crypto and kind of be

the broest Bro in broville which sort of

inadvertantly meant not treating women

especially well and not embracing

education not embracing empathy not

embracing some of the key components of

what it means to be

successful and the conversation I would

say uh when I started talking about this

stuff probably four or five years ago my

inbox was littered with kind of

accusations that you're a misogynist and

what I think something we have to

embrace is that empathy is not a zero

some game civil rights did not hurt

white people it helped them gay marriage

did not hurt heteronormative marriage uh

it helped it and being empathetic

towards the plight and the statistics

around failing young men does not draw

from the very real concerns and empathy

and the progress that young women have

made and I would argue that there are

two groups that would like to see more

emotionally and economically viable

young men the first is women I mean how

many times have you heard I know all

these great women and they can't find a

date and two for my work the People by

far I get the most support from is one

cohort and that's mothers and it goes

something like this I have three kids

two daughters one son one daughter's at

pen the other's in PR in Chicago and my

son is in the basement vaping and

playing video

games so mothers have really kind of

stepped into this void and said look I

see it firsthand there is a difference

here and on the far left the far right I

think is somewhat weaponized masculinity

as a means of saying that that efforts

to elevate women or non-whites has gone

too far which I would argue is not true

and the far-left doesn't want to even

talk about it because their fear is that

if you start talking about even gender

you're somehow attacking the five or 10%

that non-binary and that's not true we

can all have empathy for each other we

can all celebrate the incredible

progress that women have made over the

last 40 years it's a wonderful thing and

we shouldn't do anything to get in the

way of that but there's a very unusual

Dynamic taking place and that is the

metaphor from Chris Williamson another

podcaster who's done a lot of great work

on this is he calls it the high heels

effect and that is metaphorically every

year women get taller more educated more

economically viable there are more

single women in the United States now

that own homes than single

men and meanwhile men are getting

shorter and shorter and shorter and 50%

of women state that won't date a guy

shorter than them I actually think it's

much greater than that it's just an

embarrassing thing to say so what you

have is a group of women who are getting

taller and taller and taller and men are

getting shorter and shorter and shorter

so there are fewer K in the eyes of

women viable mates this reduces

household formation it reduces birth

rates and that is uh starts an

intractable downward spiral in terms of

an economy that both Japan and Italy and

soon Russia and China are facing if you

don't have young people in household

formation there used to be 3.1 kids in

household 60 years ago now there's

1.9 so it has economic impact and also I

think it has a lot of impact just on

General happiness the majority

of I'm not saying you can't be happy

living your life as a single person I

was single for most of my adult life I

was very happy but I do think the most

rewarding things in life come from a

function of deep and meaningful

relationships and oftentimes that comes

from a relationship with a romantic

partner that you decide to have kids

with and I think there's a lot of young

men and women who feel like they don't

really have the same uh environment to

form that sort of relationship they

don't it's economically more challenging

for them um and there's a variety of

factors including other things we can

talk about onlay Danning that I think

make it even even more

difficult yeah I think to really tease

apart the issue we will certainly get

into that stuff for me looking at it it

is men and women exists in a dance and

people are not thinking from first

principles so when you start thinking

about okay men and women have co-evolved

together they have a role where they

each are both what I call the shout and

the echo so you are what you do the

shout and you are the echo what comes

back to you so I've heard you say this

and this is certainly true for myself uh

so much of my ambition was simply to get

laid uh and then in the beginning that

certainly got me moving and then when I

got married and was doing well in that

department I felt I had uh an obligation

to my wife to become the kind of man

that could continue to provide and

protect and so I ended up developing a

pretty I I was not raised with what I'll

call a super traditional outlook on what

masculinity was but I ended up finding

that as a way to um provide for her in

the way that I had promised her that I

would and that that just sort of led me

to uh becoming more aggressive becoming

more stoic uh acquiring skills as

rapidly as I could understanding what um

what part of the relationship I was

going to play when we we got married it

was very traditional so my wife grew up

a traditional Greek girl she has since

become an entrepreneur in her own right

and has just taken a totally different

path but when we got married she was a

housewife for almost a decade uh I went

out and earned an income and I watched a

really interesting Dynamic form between

the two of us where in the beginning she

did not plan to interface with the world

directly so it was through me that she

was going to get things done and so she

didn't think I was asking for enough or

pushing hard enough or work hard

whatever she would encourage me with her

feminine WS to get me to behave in ways

that she liked and look she was maybe

not even consciously aware of all of it

and we've always been high level

communicators that discussed all of this

but if she thought I needed to put in

more energy at work she would make that

known if she thought I should ask for a

raise she would make that known so on

and so forth and so that Dynamic of

behind every powerful man is a strong

woman I actually watched that play out

in the beginning

until she decided she was going to have

her own voice and step forward but that

beginning dynamic between the two of us

showed me a lot of the historical dance

between men and women where a woman was

largely going to be focused on uh

raising children just biologically

obviously that's a role they are

optimized for um and so now when we live

in a world where she can choose either

path she can go in and become an

entrepreneur as my wife has chosen to do

um or she can stay at and and the they

really function more as a unit and that

is what I feel is breaking down is right

now everyone is sort of running the race

on their own and to your point you now

get women are being far more successful

at what could be deemed a traditionally

masculine game and now men are beginning

to lose out at the traditionally

masculine game

um what do you think about that there's

a lot there so I think the what you

described in terms of your role and what

you're trying to bring to your

relationship I think that's a pretty

decent subtext or definition of

masculinity in a very crud legs of the

stool protector provider

procreator

and a romantic the prospect of a

romantic or a sexual relationship is

exceptionally motivating for a young man

uh that's why a lot of young men shower

it's why they actually have a plan it's

why they go to work it's why they stop

getting high and drinking so much during

the week because often times their

partner

their romantic or sexual partner will

say unless you get your [ __ ] together I

am leaving and also you begin these

instincts begin to kick in where you

want to take care of this person you

want to build a life together and you

want to be a great provider you want to

be a great protector and by the way that

attribute of masculinity is not

sequestered just to people born as men a

lot of women demonstrate wonderful forms

of masculinity I like to think I

demonstrate a lot of the attributes

normally associated with femininity

but to have an adult conversation around

this we have to have an adult

conversation in that

is somewhere between 5 and 10% of people

identify as um um as homosexual that

means about 90% identify as either

heterosexual or non-binary so it's okay

to talk about the majority of people are

going to be born with a certain

predilection or a certain bias or more

easily Embrace certain attributes than

people born as the other gender and I

don't think there's anything wrong with

that and what I'm telling or what I'm

trying to argue for and I'm trying to

write a book on masculinity is that men

need to lean into a modern form of

masculinity and there's nothing wrong

with that you brought up the motivations

for you being a good

provider My Success is a function of a

few things one the generosity of

California taxpayers in the region of

the University of California I went to

school where you live at UCLA and Burke

where my total tuition for S years of

school undergrad and grad was $7,000

total tuition and more importantly than

that the admissions rate at UCLA when I

applied was 76% this year it'll be 9%

and in exchange for their generosity

after spending 5 years smoking dope and

watching Planet of the Apes I got a 2.27

GPA from UCLA and what happened with

that 2.27

GPA Berkeley let me into graduate school

imagine that Berkeley one of the finest

institutions in the world let me in with

a 2.27 GPA and then I got my [ __ ]

together and I went on to do to do well

by most most metrics and the real

motivation uh the real motivating

factors were women first and foremost my

mom got very sick and it was just me and

her I was raised by a single mother who

lived and died a secretary and we didn't

have money and we were

underinsured and if you want to see the

harsh side of America there's a lot of

wonderful things about America I think I

think America becomes more like itself

every day and that is if you have money

it's a loving and gentle place if you

don't have money I think it's a

rapacious violent

place and it I saw that up close when my

mom got very aggressive cancer and we

were underinsured and I came home from

grad school to take care of my mom and I

couldn't take care of her we didn't have

any money I couldn't afford a nurse I

didn't know where to I couldn't take her

back to the hospital cuz we were

uninsured and the place they wanted to

send her was so vile I just couldn't do

it and it was incredibly emasculating

and I thought you know here I am I'm the

man you know light of my life took great

care of me and I can't take care of her

and it was humiliating and I decided

then and there I you can't decide to be

rich there's a certain X Factor to it

but I remember thinking I'm going to try

very very hard I'm going to get my [ __ ]

together and I'm going to throw

everything at this professionally

because I want to take care of my mother

and then the second thing is much less

noble or a little bit more crass but I

noted I noticed at a very young age the

guys who weren't that interesting had a

much broader set selection set of mates

if they had a lot of money and I was

very interesting I was very interested

in in having mating

opportunities and I realized that if I

wanted to add two points you know

everybody's on a scale right a character

looks whatever it is Success scale of 1

to 10 and men and women are judged kind

of with different inputs but when you're

a wealthy

guy you get to add two or three points

to your selection set and so I thought

one I'd really like to take care of the

person who's important to me my mother

and two I would like to have a broad

selection set of mat it was very

motivating for me uh but those are what

you

have especially with men when men don't

establish a romantic relationship and

now only onethird of men under the age

of 30 have a girlfriend two3 of women

under the age of 30 have a boyfriend

because they are dating older crazy

because they want more economically and

emotionally viable men so when you have

a whole cohort of young men who are not

going to college not having the same

economic opportunities and quite frankly

have no or little prospects for romantic

relationship you generate the most

dangerous person in the world and that

is a lonely

broke um young man that is any society

that's violent any society that has

revolutions any society that engages in

religious extremist Behavior has a dis

disproportionate number of this cohort

and we are producing way too many of

them in the United States and it

is you say well okay your hair is on

fire now but what about women women are

much better at finding places to give

and receive love even without the

prospect of a romantic relationship I'm

not saying they're not lonely I'm not

saying their loneliness is any any less

tragic but women don't pick up AR-15s

when they're lonely women don't get as

is involved in conspiracy theories as

men women have a much broader friend

Network without that they invest in and

they maintain and closer familiar bonds

when they don't have a romantic

relationship it's generally your wife

reminding you to call your mother it's

generally your wife saying oh we should

really get together with your friends or

they're much better at maintaining

there's this great

line in the movie Magnolia I forget his

name he's he's he he said he's this kind

of pathetic guy and he says I have so

much love to give but I don't know where

to put it and women are much better at

figuring that out they're much better at

figuring out places to put and receive

love without the prospect of a romantic

relationship young men without that

Prospect and that motivation generally

become shitty citizens they're less

they're less likely to go to college

they're less they're more prone to

conspiracy theory they're much more

likely to believe some Carnival Barker

telling them that it's women's or

non-whites or immigrants fault they

become in some they become shitty

citizens and so unless we can massively

invest in a younger generation and give

them more opportunities and I don't

think we want to go to male affirmative

action I just think it would be too

politicized unless we make the requisite

Investments and we can do this we've

done it before to to have a dramatic

step change upgrade in the economic

viability of all young people including

young men we're not going to have as

much household formation and we're going

to have too many lonely young people

especially too many lonely young men the

big Tech Community has

made trillions of dollars trying to

convince young people that they can have

a lowrisk low entry reasonable fact

assembly of Life via algorithms and

screens don't put in the hard work and

email people on LinkedIn and network and

get certification to have a real job

just trade stocks on Robin Hood or buy

salana on

coinbase oh you do you really need

friends well you have friends on Discord

and Reddit oh it's humiliating to go to

go to a bar and work out and figure out

the skills and the rejection and the

humiliation of trying to find a romantic

or a sexual partner well you got you

porn and now you have an AI girlfriend

and soon you're going to have a sex doll

so you have a group of people young

people especially young men who are

exiting and sequestering from what is

the most rewarding thing in life and

that is deep meaningful friendships

professional relationships and romantic

relationships the reason why romantic

comedies are 2 hours not 15 minutes is

that the real victory in life the really

rewarding things in life the reason we

live life all of those things have one

thing in common they're really hard it

is really hard to establish

relationships and mentorships and a

reputation is a good co-worker and

manager at work it is really hard to

establish a great network of friends and

invest and feel that collegiality and

that joy and it is really hard as a

young man to get your [ __ ] together and

be attractive enough that you can you

have the confidence to endure rejection

the only thing I can guarantee anyone

who who wants to succeed professionally

and romantically is rejection that's it

that's the only thing I can guarantee

you and unless you develop the skills to

endure that and then become that person

that people want to be

with I worry we have this this group of

kids or young men who have literally

just fallen off the matap they don't

develop professional or social skills

and then they get into their mid or

their late 20s they're still living at

home with a majority of people over the

age of 30 are no living with romantic

partner roommate they're living at home

and they never catch up they never catch

up they turn into they spend the rest of

their lives alone and they never really

get to experience that victory that

warmth that friendship that love that

that many of us got to experience in an

America that quite frankly just invested

more in

youth man this is uh this is a really

fascinating problem exactly why I am

obsessed with people thinking from first

principles so you saying that um you

know a lot of this stuff is going to be

really hard and right now technology is

helping people optimize for doing things

that are easy this is the danger sign I

want to flash to people if you're going

to think from first principles you have

to first ask what is the Wet Works that

determines how we feel about the world

so you're interpreting everything

through your body your mind obviously

but your mind is in such concert with

whether it's your microbiome or whatever

but you you are a what I will call A A

flesh based AI that is going to respond

to adapt to and learn from its

environment so what is the nature of the

human mind whether male female doesn't

matter just what is the nature of the

human mind and I think when people talk

about um things have gone wrong and we

want to go somewhere new it's like okay

what exactly are you optimizing for and

for me anyway my North Star is to um

create as much human flourishing as

possible and reduce as much human

suffering as possible now I'll round

that to fulfillment so I think people

should be optimizing for fulfillment and

I think fulfillment has a recipe that's

based on the evolutionary reality of the

way the human mind works so I think the

human mind is optimized for the just

hundreds of thousands of years where

surviving was brutally difficult and if

evolution only has Pleasure and Pain as

levers to move your behavior in the

direction most likely to cause you to

survive long enough to have kids that

have kids which is all nature is trying

to do then it's going to say hey you did

a really hard thing feel good about that

hey you you're just sitting around don't

feel good about that because if you're

just sitting around you're not doing

anything you're not pushing yourself you

don't feel exertion I know you've said

if you slip into depression or if you

were advising somebody that does uh that

sweating is one of the things you

recommend just like get out there and do

a thing now the reason I think that

works is because Evolution had to

incentivize you to go out and do hard

things to face danger to take risks to

improve yourself and so there are all

these evolutionary pressures from a I am

striving to be fulfilled standpoint to

work hard so my recipe for fulfillment

looks like this you must work hard to

acquire a set of skills that you about

for whatever reason that allow you to

serve yourself and the group and if you

don't do any of that including just not

working hard you will have a profound

sense of disease and so I look at Modern

Life and I'm like this is utterly

fascinating we have killed ourselves for

God knows how many centuries to build a

perfect Walled Garden where there are no

Predators we don't have to worry about

anything and when you get there because

of

Evolution's manipulation of of the human

brain it doesn't feel good and so

suddenly you have to put yourself back

in a position where you have to do hard

things uh that you have to have a goal

you have to be striving for something

making progress and if you're not doing

that you don't feel

good makes

sense yeah so this is where I now then

start asking okay technology which

you've touched

on what is it doing that's creating the

downward spiral and or contrib to it if

it isn't the sole um thing because I

think you've laid out three very

important factors uh but when I look at

Society what it's doing and Technology

pornography certainly comes to mind if

you had to rank order the technological

problems what rough order would you put

them in is it pornography first is it um

wasting time on video games what what

are the problems created by

Tech uh so so first off let me start

with um stuff that probably there's more

alarm than actual

harm uh video games have been shown it

would be logical if you see these

multiplayer shooter games to think okay

that's what's causing shootings mass

shootings and all the research shows

that that's in fact not the case and for

a lot of boys it's a means of

socialization it's a means of relaxation

for them obviously there are limits to

it I notic that when my son's on screens

too much he just for lack of a better

word turns into an [ __ ] and if if if

he's used to being entertained all day

long when you don't entertain him or he

doesn't get that action reaction he'll

do something to get a reaction

regardless of whether that's good or bad

behavior that's just true of screens in

general what I think is most

damaging is uh polarization I think our

discourse has become too coarse if you

look at

America relatively speaking America I

would would argue has never been

stronger we're food independent we're

energy independent uh China's neither of

those things you can maybe argue they

food independent but China can't get

into a war an aggressive action because

there's so many choke points that could

cut off their energy Supply we produce

more energy than we consume we produce

more food than we consume no one is

lining up for Russian or Chinese

vaccines if you think about the most

breakthrough technology creating the

most shareholder value it's AI 98% of it

was not only invented being captured in

the United States the majority of it is

within a 7 mile radius of SFO

International Airport our universities

are the best in the world when the

conflict breaks out in the Middle East

we can send two carrier strike forces

that can deliver the violence of a you

know a third or the fourth biggest

nation in the world which hopefully

cauterizes it from becoming a national

conflict or a regional conflict you know

we're our inflation is the lowest in the

G7 while our growth is amongst the

highest our unemployment is a near

record lows the our markets are record

highs I mean there isn't a nation that

wouldn't kill for our problems right now

and yet we don't like each other and yet

we see each other as our enemies about

45% of of Democrats are worried their

kid is going to marry a republican

people are talking to their neighbors

less the number the number of people who

who would vote for an autocrat as long

as it was their autocrat is 25% in each

party a quarter of Americans would be

fine with an autocrat who was elected

was that how that question was posed

like are you okay with an autocrat or

they describe something that you read as

an autocrat I need to know how terrified

to be yeah I don't know the market

research semantics but uh the wording

but it was something along the lines of

if it was a Democrat would you be

comfortable by this person getting

elected at all means possible even if it

meant election interference in other

words oh God see that freaks me up would

you will I think a court of Democrats

and Republicans would be would tolerate

election interference as long as their

guy or gy was

that yeah well I think you're seeing

that I think you're I well I think

you're seeing a lot of it especially on

the Republican side but anyways I'm I'm

biased here we don't like each other I

think in addition what you have is I

mean you have teen depression and

childhood depression especially acute

among girls Instagram lack of

self-esteem I mean imagine you're

younger than me but you probably grew up

imagine never being able to leave the

high school cafeteria I got to come home

and relax and I I didn't no one was

evaluating me now these kids if you

don't get invited to a party you not

only have to deal with humiliation to

that which I dealt with a lot but I

didn't have to watch it play out in real

time on Instagram oh God there's just so

much in addition with boys bully

physically and verbally girls bully

relationally and we're seeing a lot of

girls have now these nuclear weapons in

their hand in the form of a

phone and they can go into the room with

their phone one of the things I do with

my kids are not allowed to go into their

room with their phone

um very smart and they can go down a

rabbit hole and then these companies

that have absolutely no regulation on

them will have algorithms that help them

scale they're not malicious people but

they're what i' call aoral people and a

14-year-old girl in the UK gets sent the

following emails from meta and from

Pinterest here are some images on

suicide we thought you might find

interesting and they're images of pills

noes and razor blades this is sent to a

14-year-old girl from a one of the 10

most valuable companies in the world so

teen

depression um coarseness of our

discourse misinformation that gives

people the wrong um misleading

information around our elections or

vaccines uh concentration of power you

know this is you could go down a rabbit

hole in terms of income inequality I

also think that um more generally in the

biggest threat of AI if we think about

technology is just the increase in

loneliness one out of seven men don't

have a single friend one out of four men

can't name a best friend women uh don't

report numbers nearly a stark women are

much better at maintaining friendships

but I worry that being online especially

AI with AI girlfriends and these

algorithms uh per our previous comments

are going to increase loneliness so you

know pick your poison a cooning of our

discourse uh reduction in faith of our

institutions misinformation around

healthc care around health are around

elections uh teen depression and

suicidal ideation and generally speaking

loneliness those are the downsides I

also need to just say I do think

technology has created a tremendous

amount of economic value I think it's

made a lot of people's lives

better um there's some real upsides I

don't think you would press a button and

have it all disappear I think we are net

gainers from technology the problem is

with the word net and that is because we

are net gainers we don't hold these

companies accountable we make a decision

on someone or a company and say if it's

a net good it shouldn't be held to the

same standards that we held previous

generations of people and companies so I

think fossil fuels are a net good I

think pesticides are a net good but we

have an FDA and we have an EPA and for

some reason we've decided with

technology there should be no similar

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code yeah it's uh this one scares me so

I agree with everything you're saying

and I also think that with social media

which is effectively the transmission of

information you are going to run into as

long as it's my autocrat um so I am

super distressed by how easy it is to um

manipulate the information that people

see at an algorithmic level and yet I

understand that there's so much

information even just from the people

that you follow you have to have an

algorithm so uh then the question

becomes okay how would we set up a body

that is regulating that in a way that um

I here's my sort of I haven't thought

about it enough take first Do no harm uh

so creating algorithms that first Do no

harm I think I'm having heard you talk

about ageg gating it I'm probably more

comfortable with that than I am as a

knee-jerk reaction to the idea of

anybody body um governmental body being

able to control what we think is and

isn't okay um so I agree on the problem

not entirely sure how solvable it is and

so my instinct is just letting kids have

it that one scares me now I don't have

kids so this is very much uh easy for me

to say and I know it must be brutally

difficult for a parent to try to keep it

out of their kids hands um what's your

take on that in terms of if you could

press a button governmental body or uh

that um regulates this or just kids

before they're whatever 16 18 uh they

don't have

it yeah you couldn't you couldn't do it

under the age of 18 I don't even think

you get away with it under the age of 16

I don't see any reason why a real upside

to kids being allowed on social media

under the age of 14 I mean if you think

about

Instagram it really starts from a place

of

perversion and that is the algorithms

are going to encourage young people

especially young women to pose in very

sexualized

positions with with very provocative

clothing such that they can be evaluated

by their peer group and strange men all

over the world I mean it's just it's

quite frankly it's just a little bit

[ __ ] up and the amount of harm it does

it it does create some communication

some but the number of high schoolers

that see their friends every day has

been cut in half just in the last 10

years and I think some of is they think

well I'll just I'll just snap them or

I'll go on Insta and they become I saw

this sort of play out in real time I

made the mistake of filming my kid doing

a handstand my oldest one I think it was

about

12 and he did a handstand on the beach

and he said can you post it to YouTube

and I said sure So he uploaded it to

YouTube and created an account and he

got a like and someone said great job

and I just saw something connect in his

brain and for the next 24 hours he was

saying to me can we check YouTube for

more comments because your ability to

modulate affirmation and love from

others or concern or whatever it is is

very difficult when you're young your

brain's just forming and you're just

becoming kind of a socially aware animal

and then and then a comment

was this kid clearly has never taken a

gymnastics class and has no

coordination and then you saw another

connection happen and he wanted to see

the other comments every 10

minutes and I mely thought this just

isn't good for the forming brain it just

isn't good and generally speaking and I

don't know if you how much this you

get young people need watering they need

warmth they need security they need love

they need

reinforcement and they do need

guardrails and there's something about

these social platforms when you're adult

the raw unfiltered push back immediate

reaction you know there's there's a good

element to that that I I think is good

for people but a young person I think

it's mostly like 90 um% bad because what

you have the Gestalt online and I don't

know if you've experienced this when

people come up to me I get I track it

about one and a half times a day when

I'm out someone approaches me just says

Hey senior work and the next 30 seconds

to three minutes are lovely they're nice

they say h how they've been introduced

to my content they're super

complimentary they tell me something

about

themselves it's just lovely makes my day

every day a stranger comes up and kind

of makes my day

online it is not the

same I have people calling me I've been

very outspoken on Israel so people call

me Prof

genocide and I don't even know if this

is a real person or a bot I have people

say really vile things really vile

things and I'd like to say oh it just

rolls right off me you know I'm such a

baller I don't care it doesn't it

bothers me some sometimes I've had I've

had weekends

ruined
and the the

general

malice people bring online in Anonymous

formats and also you don't know if it's

a bad actor if I were the gru or the CCP

I would just have algorithms trying to

get people Americans to hate each other

I think that's absolutely the easiest

way to diminish our standing in the

world is to get us when the settlers

came into North America they didn't they

didn't immediately take on the Native

Americans they got them fighting each

other they planted rumors and they

encouraged them to kill each other and

then they came in for cleanup if I were

China and I couldn't beat America

kinetically and I had a I had a an

interest in diminishing them

competitively nationally I would just

set loose millions of algorithms they

got people bickering and fighting and

saying mean things to each other and

starting fights it's like when you're in

fourth grade and a couple kids have

words and everyone surrounds them and

goes fight fight fight and pushes them

towards each other imagine that times a

billion that's what these algorithms are

doing online and if you're old you

should be able to modulate it maybe it

takes a toll on your mental health it

was taking a toll on mine so I got off

of Twitter I thought Twitter has become

just such it's become the sewage system

for a Cess pool I thought it has just

gotten so ugly and so angry I don't I'm

no longer getting as much the downside

is greater than the upside I can

modulate it I don't think a 13-year-old

girl or boy can modulate it so I'd like

to see ageg gating I don't I don't think

there's a lot of downside to ageg gating

we Agate the military pornography

alcohol

cigarettes content I mean I couldn't get

into to see the I had to sneak in to see

The Exorcist when I was kid we're

supposed to be 17 why on Earth wouldn't

we age gate social media yeah it's

interesting this is the thing that that

really scares me about technology and

full disclosure I am a techno Optimist

I'm about as optimistic as you're going

to get I wrote a whole comic book about

this set in the future in a world that I

think is actually going to come to

fruition where Ai and Robotics meet

people begin augmenting themselves uh

and in that my pitch is that technology

is actually the good guy and it's the

reactionary people that are going to

create the problems how however like if

you're not being polyana you really have

to recognize that there is a terrifying

truth to the velocity and volume of

information that people are exposed to

the human mind has a very difficult time

holding on to nuanced arguments and so

if you give somebody a catchy enough

slogan to repeat and then as an

algorithm figure out which way they lean

and you just feed them more of that um

and again this is something I've heard

you say that outrage sells way more than

sex and so if you can get people into an

outrage Loop uh you've really got them

and my thing going back to First

principles if you understand that's the

way your mind works hopefully you at

least as an individual can avoid falling

into the Trap but and this actually I'm

very interested to hear what you think

about this I have a whole spiel about I

think people should distrust their

emotions I don't think just because you

feel it you should act upon it I think

people should have goals and say this is

my goal which I hope is Honorable uh you

have an honorable goal and then it's

does this emotion move me closer or

farther away from that goal uh take

being in a marriage so I've been married

now to the same woman for 21 years

together 23 and man there are times

where she makes me mad and I think if I

am to lash out and just trust my anger

then this is not going to move me

towards my goal of having a thriving

emotional compassionate relationship

with my wife and so I put that in check

I distrust it and say hey it's possible

in fact I I have a thesis about when you

get angry someone's probably treading on

your insecurities and so me getting mad

is probably me just lashing out because

she's touched on an insecurity anyway

one of the things that I just see people

celebrating themselves for and others

for is you feel it and you should

express it and I am hugely skeptical of

that based on remember my North Star I

want human flourishing which I will

Define as people moving towards

fulfillment uh so I think people have to

really be careful but when you have the

that velocity and volume of information

coming over social media and okay now

we're getting into something I don't

know if I've ever said this out loud

before everything has a name every uh

every way that somebody could be like

you're ning God that's a terrible

example but you get the idea like every

way of being has a name and so

everybody's just like that's

narcissism uh and by putting it in a box

they're no longer thinking critically

about it that's misogyny and everything

goes into a box and once it's in the Box

we know we can dismiss it rather than as

you said earlier having an adult

conversation um that freaks me out so

when I think about navigating social

media

well I'm not

optimistic the only way go

ahead well yeah I'm I'm not I I will say

I agree with you I'm an optimist around

technology too I just I do think um

so just to go to Solutions there's

something called section 230 that

basically inoculates or immunizes all

social media platforms from the same

liability if if they could reverse

engineer this podcast and show

statistical evidence that girls started

engaging in self harm on a regular basis

after listening to this podcast you'd be

in a world of hurt you'd have a class

action suit against you it would be so

scary and so economically ruinous that

this podcast would either go out of

business business or quickly pivot to

putting in place the technology to solve

whatever was causing self- cutting or

self harm among

girls we decided that these nent

Technologies this law was written I

think 26 years ago should not be subject

to the same scrutiny as every other

media platform that makes no sense any

longer so for example if you were to say

any content that is algorithmically

elevated is no longer protected by 230

they would be a lot more cautious about

this type of content they might put in

place more they might invest more in

their safety teams so I think there's a

lot that can be done that wouldn't even

be what I'd call um additional

regulation but just taking away

regulation if you will that somehow

creates them as a protected a protected

class but when you're starting to talk

about AI I mean things are going to get

you know things could get very scary

very fast but I agree with you I'm

largely a technology Optimist I think

it'll be wonderful but regulation has

been key to you know we have emission

standards where you're not allowed to

spray your food with certain things one

of the things I like about the UK is

there's about 1,200 pesticides and

preservatives and hormones they're not

allowed to put in the food here and my

orange juice goes bad a little bit

sooner but I can taste the difference

and I think over the long run it's

probably good for me might be a little

bit more expensive but I just bet it's

better for me so I think I I agree with

you I'm a technology Optimist but I'm

also worried that we're so fascinated by

technology and we have we suffer in the

United States from what I'd call an

idolatry of

innovators that because there's a lack

of religion in people's lives and I'm an

atheist I'm not what I call someone who

talks about the importance of religion

but Church attendance and the Reliance

on a super being declines as a nation

becomes wealthier it's much much less

prevalent than it was just 50 60 years

ago in the United States and into that

void has slept uh has slipped our

new uh Jesus Christ and that's

technology innovators magic feels

mystical it's hard to understand these

people are compelling they make

trillions of dollars we're all very

drawn to them so we decide that our new

Jesus Christ are Elon Musk and Steve

Jobs and we don't hold them or their

companies to the same standards as other

companies and I think that's dangerous I

don't think because we assume that we

keep waiting for their better angels to

show up and the reality is in a capital

Society where you have better health

care can take care of your parents and

your kids that reference broader

selection set of mates people like you

laugh at your jokes you can help elect

the next president when you have a lot

of money the temptation of capital

Society to aggregate wealth is so great

that almost every CEO will make a series

of what I call

Micro

rationalizations and get to a point

where they're sending emails with newses

and pill and razors and we keep hoping

their better angels are going to show up

and guess what they don't they don't and

they're not going to because we've put

in place an incentive system that

encourages them to ignore it or to water

it down or to delay an opus skate right

I think Cher samber is probably a good

person she was consistently telling the

world we need to do better we're proud

of the progress she was the heat shield

for all the damage that meta was leving

on our youth and quite frankly the world

and a lot of vulnerable groups so we

have in the

US absence of

Regulation and absence of standards and

way too much idolatry of innovators into

the dollar and the result is a sector

that is arguably the most influential

sector in

history it's just the wild west at this

point and they would argue well that's

how you how you innovate I think there's

some truth to that but the majority of

industries that have grown really fast

do have some sort of Standards or

regulation and they will claim well

these are great products and their cost

is free they're free you know Google's

free Facebook's free and I would argue

the the economic cost of being a parent

trying to raise emotionally healthy

mentally strong kids the cost to

democracy wondering what if what you're

seeing is a deep fake of Biden following

or of Nancy Pelosi drunk you know or

wondering if this vaccine is actually

going to alter your DNA I think every

day the costs go up that have been

leving on our society is a function of a

lack of regulation on big TCH

okay so uh I think that's a very

eloquent argument certainly sets the

table for the problem um we've got the

daughters in school doing well we've got

the son in the basement playing video

games and vaping what's the strategy for

making him a productive member of

society uh so I don't think it's any

Silver Bullet I think it's a variety of

solutions um one I would and this is

Richard Reeves idea who wrote kind of

the landmark book on the topic called of

boys and men so some of his ideas are in

here but I would red sure boys I would

start Boys in kindergarten at 6 and

girls at 5 they just mature at different

Paces I would try and get more men back

into primary and uh high school

education there are more female fighter

pilots per capita than there are male

kindergarten teachers you can now go

through if you live in a single parent

household you can go through all the way

through high school and never really

have a male role model so try and get

more men back into um primary education

a massive investment in vocational

programming I don't know if you're old

enough to remember wood shop metal shop

and auto shop of course but there were

just a bunch of guys who just weren't

going to go to college but you know what

they were really [ __ ] talented they

knew how to fix [ __ ] they were

handy and they they kind of got into

wood they were the guys hanging out at

wood shop and making stuff and repairing

cars

and in the American economy the real

economy that guy with a one or twoe

apprenticeship or that gal and it's

about 802 male to female that that guy

or gal they're making 80k right out of

high school and they're not going to go

to college and it doesn't mean they're a

failure it doesn't mean their parents

have failed you know electricians

roofers specialty nurses specialty

construction do you know how many do you

know how many really talented especially

construction managers we're going to

need as we build more and more nuclear

power plants I mean you're not putting

up a Tin Shed here it's not easy to

repair an electric vehicle or you know

or it requires different skills to to to

to install and maintain energy

efficient appliances requires a

different set of skills if you're

renovating a house you're going to see

how much you're paying your plumber and

your roofer there are real jobs out

there so a massive investment in

vocational programming a massive in

investment in increasing the number of

freshman seats so instead of having all

these incredibly emotional arguments

over Dei and who gets in to Harvard or

Cal State poly or to you know to

Pepperdine or USC or

UCLA it's a giant misdirect because the

answer isn't who gets in the answer is

how many and when these universities sit

on endowments the size of small Central

American nations and they decide to

limit their freshman classes so guys

like me who are on the faculty NYU can

feel more important and we stand up and

applaud the dean every year when we say

our admissions rate went from 14% to 12%

we've lost the script that's not what

we're supposed to be doing we're

supposed to be public servants not a

Chanel bag so massively increase

freshman seats and then a series of

economic programs that stop transferring

money from young people to old people an

elimination of capital gains you can

lower taxes if you get rid of capital

gains tax exemption there should be

there should be if you're going to favor

anything you should favor sweat there

should be a lower tax rate on people who

actually get their asses out of bed go

to work and do real work as opposed to

guys like me who just buy and sell

stocks why why is what why is money more

noble than sweat it should be absolutely

the other way around uh first home first

home buyer programs there's some in

different states initiatives we have to

level up young people when the greatest

innovation in history was not the

semiconductor of the iPhone it was the

American middle class it's fought Wars

it's paid for so much incredible

investment in DARPA GPS technology EV

charging stations the middle class in

America from the end of World War II to

now has been the gift that is kept on

giving globally so the question is if

that's the most noble and the most

righteous innovation in history how do

you support it and I think at its core

was that we had young people with a lot

of Economic valab ility and the the kind

of flaw in The Matrix right now is that

we don't have enough economically viable

young men and in 19 19 45 when the war

ended we had all these men come home in

uniform and they had demonstrated

excellence and then we gave them GI

bills and subsidized loans for housing

and we made them viable mates and they

were attractive to a cohort of women and

we started the baby boom in the middle

class and we gave them tax benefits and

a shot at having a reasonable life and

we gave them incentives to stay together

and incentives to have children and that

created the you know Prosperity the

likes of which the world had never seen

before so how do we create an economic

environment where people have more

incentive to to find each other mate

have kids and stay together na I'd like

to see compulsory national service we

need more kids from different sexual

orientations economic backgrounds and

ethnic backgrounds mixing with each

other because they'll have more empathy

for each other it'll be less easy for

them to hate each other when they hang

out with a trans kid and see this kid's

pretty much just like me right it's when

you don't co-mingle it's when you don't

bounce off these people that it's easy

to start resenting

them I think there's a ton of things we

can do economic societal more third

spaces more Parks after school leagues

religious institutions nonprofit work we

got to get young people meeting each

other in random environments in service

of something bigger than them and all of

these things have existed we know how to

do this we know how to let in 76% of

people to an elite college called UCLA

we used to do it we know how to figure

out a way to make it affordable for them

such that the the single Sons or the

sons of single immigrant mothers who

lived and died a secretary years truly

can get a great education get their have

the opportunity to get their [ __ ]

together and go on and live really

remarkable lives we know how to do all

these things it's more like a Back to

the Future thing rather than the

incumbents will tell you whether it's

corporations or the 1% quite frankly

which I'm now a part of that are getting

a disproportionate amount of this spoils

will claim that these are huge

unsolvable problems they use works like

networks and globalis ation [ __ ] we

have more prosperity in this nation than

we've ever had we've just decided not to

share it the way we used to share it the

top income tax bracket after World War

II was 90% even through the 60s and 70s

it was

70% now and I'm very public about this

my tax rate for the last 10 years has

been around

177% that's just that makes no sense

when I sold my last company the first

$10 million was taxfree that makes no

sense my had I got very with another

investment the first 25 million was

taxfree does that make sense is that how

we restore the middle class I mean it's

just it is so naked here what is going

on this transfer of wealth from lower

middle income households to the very

rich that it's no wonder the middle

class is withering and what's so

upsetting about this is none of this

needs to happen the cake has never been

bigger we're just slicing it much

differently yeah the uh Eric Weinstein

said something to me one time um I agree

with him on so much this is sort of the

one unique thing where I he sounded

crazy to me which is uh he was saying

that Boomers basically need to step down

and that they're hoarding wealth and

they're you know shutting out young

people from all these opportunities and

I said Eric that's not how this works

like they have to be bested like you you

can't expect anybody to be like I'm

going to slow down so you can lead so

clearly something is broken and I think

you've done a really good job of

outlining the problem and I think you've

said what I'm about to say between the

lines and I I'm pretty sure you believe

this but part of what is missing in all

this is going back to the first thing

you said which is that men are getting

shorter metaphorically and for anybody

following along uh men need to get

metaphorically taller and so some part

of this is going to have to be inspiring

people and I think this is why you were

saying like okay we need to take care of

the middle class it will not take care

of itself and so one of the notes I was

taking is is the reason that you're

interested in the middle class is it

gives something attainable for um a

young man to aim for where he can put in

work not necessarily going to a college

but he can put in work in a trade get

good at that and show progress in his

life become a again metaphorically

taller man so that more women are

interested so that he has meting

opportunities so he's not getting

frustrated because that makes sense to

me and if what we're saying is hey guys

uh we over here on a policy perspective

we have to make sure that we're creating

a playing field on which you can make

progress because that is as Tony Robin

says is a foundational pillar to human

happiness which I agree very much um but

at the same time you're going to have to

come on and play your guts out and

that's one thing that I don't hear a lot

about anymore as somebody who's sort of

of the final generation of people that

was raised with the expectation that I

was going to be tough I was going to

learn to man up which I know is like

Ultra triggering now as a phrase but man

up get tough uh get better strive don't

give up and that was my entrepreneurial

journey I ate [ __ ] in the beginning it

was just an one atrocity after another

of me just being hopelessly bad at it

and having to get good and work obscene

hours uh and I think that is going to

have to be part of the message if we

want guys to pull out of this taal

yeah I think a lot of it starts with

parenting so we've touched on if you

look at the spike in teen depression and

it's extraordinary what's happened over

the last 10 years um Hospital admissions

through self harm teen

suicide um reports of hopelessness it's

up you know like I think about 40% with

men and I think 60 80% with

girls and they've Jonathan hey my

colleague in myu is sort of reverse

engineered to two driving forces one is

social media and we talked about that we

talked about the alses of Technology the

ills of Technology the second is what he

calls coners or bulldozer

parenting and that is as parents we use

so many sanitary wipes on our child's

lives that they don't develop their own

immunities we clear out all their

obstacles and then they get to NYU or

they get to College they get their

heartbroken or they get their first D

and they don't have the um scar tissue

or the calluses to deal with it they

don't have the resilience and they freak

out quite frankly so you're not doing

your kid any

favors you know when you make money what

you want to do is you want to protect

your kids and that that I mean the world

has changed so dramatically I used to

leave my mom's house on a Saturday at

10:00 a.m. with a Schwin bike and

abazaba bar and 35 cents and I might be

home 14 hours later she had no idea

where I was maybe I remember to call her

if I was spending the night somewhere

that was verbot and if I was going to

spend the night at a friends we did

sleepovers right if my my kid isn't home

my kid gets out of school at 340 if he

isn't home at 358 we practically contact

Scotland Yard it's so programmed any

problem

tutors and you know kids need to I mean

quite frankly kids just need to fail a

little bit more right they need a lack

of after school programming where they

learn skills and

disappointment a lack I mean quite

frankly a lack of mating I mean teen to

pregnant teen pregnancy and and drunk

driving DS are down which is a great

thing but a lot of it is because these

kids aren't experiencing relationships

aren't getting together aren't making

mistakes aren't experimenting with drugs

aren't experimenting with sex aren't

experimenting with relationships and

quite frankly some of that is really

good for them to learn their boundaries

I I hung out with Mormons when I was a

kid and I never drank and I got to

college and I had I had a tough time

handling

alcohol I would like I'm giving my

16-year-old we live in Europe I have him

drink beer every once in a while he

would was very open with me that he

tried pot I actually think that's a good

thing that's a good thing we I think I

don't know if you can sort of

tell young men to level I don't know if

that I I I think the way you instill it

from a young age is competitive sports

summer jobs as parents letting them fail

doing a better job of teaching them a

little bit of grit I think it's sort of

up to us if you

will um but what I would where I agree

with you is

when I was starting my career I just did

nothing but

work and I get all these questions on my

podcast about balance I'm like where do

you expect to be economically and

they'll say well I want to make 150,000

a year I'm like okay that puts you in

the you know 85th percentile of all

income earning households and if you're

you're how old are you under the age of

27 okay to make $150,000 under the age

of 30 probably puts you in the top 3%

I'm like I've never met anyone who

attains the top desile like economically

in America that he is isn't either born

with money or isn't a genius you know

genius talented that doesn't work all

the time are you willing to work all the

time because stop this [ __ ] about

balance you can have it all you just

can't have it all at once and young

people are geniuses of finding some

balance I I worked all the time but I

was found time to drink I was found time

to find my friends I was find time to

try and pursue mating opportunities even

if I struck out but I I this whole thing

about follow your passion and balance

okay if you want to move to a lowcost a

lowcost city you have a partner you

don't need a fat house you want to coach

literally if you want to live to work

I'm say work to live more power to you

most of the young people I speak to

expect to have a lot of free time a lot

of focus on their Hobbies self-care

while making a [ __ ] ton of money and I'm

like okay it's one or the other boss is

it's one or the other and Instagram is

constantly telling them they're failing

if they're not making millions in crypto

or parting in abisa or Tulum or staying

at the Almond that somehow they've

screwed up it's like I'm telling you

unless you inherit that money the only

people that get there are the ones who

have sacrificed immensely there's no

free lunch here and we keep telling kids

in education about the importance of

balance and what I say is the importance

is having a sober conversation around

the tradeoff

do you do you want to have kids at an

early age do you want to have balance in

your career then okay if you don't have

a lot of money then you got to move to a

lowcost neighborhood and you got to be

really disciplined in terms of your

budget and by the way that might be the

H the way to go my way isn't the right

way it which just my way I just worked

for 20 20 odd years I did nothing else

and now I have a lot of balance and the

reason I have a lot of balance is

because I had none back then so it's

just pick your punches but young people

I find we have told them they can have

it all their entire lives and I feel

like that's a lie and to your point the

notion of kids being a little tougher or

young people being a little tougher I

think that's mostly my generation's

fault as

parents that that we want to clear out

every obstacle for them it's the

princess and the peace syndrome where

they get to they get to a a challenge

and they can't you know they can't

sleep yeah yeah

uh Scott I think you're one of the most

profound thinkers on this topic thank

you so much for joining me today where

can people follow

you well first off thank you Tom um you

know to resist is feudal I'm everywhere

uh I'm Prof Galloway is my new you know

if you want to get my newsletter no

mercy to malice um two podcasts pivot

co-hosted with Caris swier and my

podcast Prof G um including on markets

and I have uh four books and another

book coming out called the algebra of

wealth uh strategies for establishing

Financial Security coming out in April

so yeah I'm I'm like AOL in the 90s like

stick your hand in a Serial box you're

gonna find

me I love it all right everybody if you

haven't already be sure to subscribe and

until next time my friends be legendary

take care peace check out my intense

conversation with Patrick B David about

masculinity to truly be free you have to

be strong enough to control your own

life and many men today simply do not

qualify many of you have been told the

pursuit of power is disgusting you

shouldn't do it many of you don't even

have a clear definition of what it means