The Euthyphro Problem

Dr. David J. Frost

The Euthyphro Problem

Dr. David J. Frost

• Plato, Socrates, Athens, conceptual analysis

The Euthyphro Problem

Dr. David J. Frost

• Plato, Socrates, Athens, conceptual analysis

• Brain teaser, tongue twister
Why philosophy?
• What can philosophy do for me?

• You might be a philosopher if…

• Have you ever found that two of your values or principles were in
conflict with each other?

• In a contest between values, how do you evaluate which is more

valuable, i.e., which should be prioritized?

• Truth versus freedom

Why philosophy?
• Have you ever wanted to do the right thing, but were unsure what
the right thing to do was?

• If you want to know the why of things, the reasons behind moral
truths or values… you might be a philosopher.

• For instance, if you asked someone how to bake a cake and they
said to follow the recipe, and you found that unsatisfactory—"I
want to know what the recipe is!"—you might be a philosopher.
What is it to do philosophy?
• Philosophy has always been a method of conversation, not body of
information or dogma.

• Dialog, back and forth, to test ideas.

• Logical argumentation to make a case.

• Think about your thinking: How is it that a conversation from 2500

years ago could mean something to us and even challenge us
today?
What is it to do philosophy?
• We will be doing “the philosophical method” exemplified in The
Euthyphro in this course… in class, in the DBs, in papers.

• A certain way of thinking which tests ideas in order to find the

truth.

• So please remain open minded. Avoid ad hominem.

• Define your terms before answering a question (or forming one).

What is the Euthyphro Problem?
• The Euthyphro problem, here, is about the relationship between the
Good (goodness, value) and God.

• Contest between religion and a new way of thinking asserting itself,

philosophy, i.e., Socratic rationality

• What is the best way for humans living in societies to orient

themselves to the world and each other? Religiously or rationally?
Some Background on Euthyphro
Some Background on Euthyphro
• Socrates lived in the 400s BC, in Athens.

• Only ~7500 years since we had stopped being hunter/gatherers and

settled in agriculture-based cities.

• Socrates was Plato’s teacher.

• Socrates  Plato  Aristotle  Alexander the Great

Some Background on Euthyphro
• Socrates …

• Famously ugly. But everyone fell in love with him.

• Why?

• Never wrote down his ideas. He did not lecture but asked
questions. Why?

• Was impossible to get drunk. Was brave in battle.

• Gadfly, annoying. Put to death for practicing philosophy.

Some Background on Euthyphro
• Socrates asks questions of people who claim to have special
knowledge…

• … and ends up showing that they do not know what they are
talking about.

• But it is not “Why? Why? Why?” etc., in the manner of a curious

child, finally stumping the adult.

• Socrates asks questions for a reason and towards an end.

Some Background on Euthyphro
• Socrates seems to ask leading questions.

• Socrates finds counterexamples or internal contradictions among

the definitional statements of his interlocutors.

• And pushes them to new definitions which he criticizes and

refines and on and on.
The Euthyphro Problem
• Euthyphro and Socrates meet on the way to court.

• Euthyphro says he knows what piety is.

• Holiness, goodness, what is best, value, what is valuable.

• Socrates asks him to define it.

The Euthyphro Problem
• Euthyphro says: “Piety is what the gods love.”

• And Socrates replies:

• “Is it pious because the gods love it or do the gods love it

because it’s pious?”

• That’s the brain teaser!

• Is it making sense yet?

• How do you answer the question?

The Euthyphro Problem
• Consider:

• The Ten Commandments

• The Bible

• Secular Authority and Expertise

The Euthyphro Problem
• A= B

• But is

• A in virtue of B

• Or is

• B in virtue of A.
The Euthyphro Problem
• Voluntarism says:

• The pious is pious because the gods love it.

• Rationalism says:

• The gods love it because it’s pious.

Voluntarism vs. Rationalism
• Voluntarism seems to have an aspect of arbitrariness.

• God could have made anything (murder or idolatry) good.

• Rationalism says it’s still the case that piety is what the gods love.
But it is not pious because the gods love it.

• They love it because it’s pious.

• It would be irrational for murder to be good, so God couldn’t

make murder good.
Pope Benedict XVI at Regensberg
Pope Benedict XVI at Regensberg
Pope Benedict XVI at Regensberg
• Khoury says that according to the Voluntarism of Ibn Hazm:

• “God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with

any of our categories, even that of rationality.”

• God could do what does not make rational sense. He could make
murder good. Or be inconsistent and demand idolatry.

• Voluntarism is politically or socially dangerous.

The History of Voluntarism
The History of Voluntarism
The History of Voluntarism
The History of Voluntarism
The History of Voluntarism
The History of Voluntarism
The History of Voluntarism
Rationalism vs. Voluntarism
• Thus, the truth is that there are strains of Voluntarism and
Rationalism in both Catholicism and Islam.

• But it seems a valid point for us in tackling the Euthyphro problem,

that Voluntarism allows for crusading and suicide bombing and
Rationalism more effectively prohibits them.
Conclusion
• All the authorities could agree but they still might be wrong. There is a
standard outside them. The standard of rationality.

• So, for us, belief is attached to reason not will.

• Thomas Nagel: “Belief should be involuntary.”

• For whatever properties you say it’s good for God to have you can ask:

• Is God good because he has those properties or are those properties good
because God has them?

• It’s a very fundamental question and it’s inescapable.

Thank you