1963 Newspaper Clippings School Desegregation Part 3

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letter, I believe* catae sometime In July. I don't know the exact date. Q At the September meeting did your Board take any action with reference to either Mrs. spruill's statement or the Bergen County NAACP letter of July, or both? A We convened a special meeting to which we invited a number of local groups; to wit, the Bergen County NAACP, a representative from the National Office of NAACP, a representative of the Englewood Urban League, ana I believe there was another representativeI don't recall just who the other representative wasand we had an open discussion of the letter. And I would state further that at the end or before the close of the meeting a statement was prepared by the groups asseaibled and a joint statement went out over the signatures of the representatives of theae organizations. The statement was, in effect, that vie were about to undertake a study of depth about our school population and we had already engaged two consultants to make this study. The representative from the National Office asked if we would have any objections to including a third consultant. We said no, we would not object to a third consultant. Whoa would you offer? They offered us the names of two
JOHN F. TRAIMOR OFFICIAL. RKROffTKH
TURN-TON. N. J.
REPRODUCED FROM THE rnTTJT!TTfNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY Uf
-142conaultants who were agreeable to them, those consultants oelng Dr. Kenneth Clark and Dr. Dan Dodson. Dr. Kenneth Clark la Professo*- of Psychology of the City of New York, and Dr. Pan Douuon Is head of the Center for Human Relations and Community Studies at NYU. The Board selected Dr. Dodson' as the third consultant. And the other two consultants being Dr. Robert
Wood, Political Scientist of MIT, and Dr. Robert Qutman, Sociologist of Rutgers College, the College of the State of New Jersey. Q And were these three men directed by your Board to do anything? A And if so, what?
These three men were placed in charge of the Superintendent of Schools and given orders to make a study of depth and to include in that study a study of racial imbalance in the Englewood Schools.
Mr. Perry, as a Bchal teacher yourself and, as a member of the Board, you had implicit faith in these three men, is that correct, as far as their backgrounds were concerned? MR. HflESLIN: I object. Thia
certainly la not binding on my clienta.

MA. KHHSTIfiR;' ' I will withdraw the.
JOHN W. TRAINOR OFFICIAL RCPOMTKIt TMKMTON. N. J.
FBCM THE CQLLELTJXtCi UT ' n . nnuj-ivi^r a. ^ . ^ , ic v^.,
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question anyway. I'll rephrase It. Were fcheee three men, to your knowledge Dr. Gutman, Itv. Wood and Dr. Dodson eminently qualified to make such a study as you have indicated? MR. EflESLIH: I object. With all
due respect to this witness, he la not qualified to answer that question, And even if one expert Is not permitted to testify as to the qualification;* of another, this gentleman, I submit, la not qualified and not called upon to express a conclusion. 'MR. liiBSON: If your Honor please, in addition to that, a.11 he con testify is that the Board hired these three men. Any reference as. to their ability or their competence v;ould have to come from the men themselves. The Board hired thfcia period. This waa a report to the Board, not 'ay the Board, We take the position that this question ia improper, tEl, KUNSTISR; CoiiBRisaloner, I might say if they had hired a atoneraaaon to build a build ing and there had been a crack or something, I think I would be entitled to ask him, representing someone who waa injured, whether they had done any investigation, whether they had some sort of criterion in hiring a
JOHN r TRAINOR OFFICIAL REPORTER TRENTON. H. J.
a
particular per ton. All I think Mr. Perry can say la that, to the best of his knowledge, these men were either competent or incompetent,as far as he knew. I'm not ask-
ing to be taken as truth that they are competent or incompetent but merely that he thought so. MR. BHESLDJ: It would be hearsay. I don't think
THE COMMISSIONER! the question Is proper. R MR. KONSTLBR;
I'll sustain the objections.
I Mr. Perry, had you heard of these three men prior to their names being suggested for this study in depth? I What do you mean had I heard of them prior? i Had you heard of them, in your own professional experience? ft Well, I knew Dr. Kenneth Clark. I have heard of Dr. Dodson, since I am an alumnus of NYU. Of course, the other two men I had not heard of. m And the other two men, were those J A Dr. Qutman of Rutgers and Dr. Wood of M3?T, I was going to finish the question. were those who were suggested by the Board rather than by the groups with whom you met. Yea, The group let's get this clear. The representative from the National Office sorry I don't recall
JOHN f. T R A I N O H
OFFICIAL RKPOHTB* THKMTON. N. J.
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his name proposed the two names . We selected one. The one we selected was Dr. Do4son. And the other two were those whose names you had from somewhere else. We had already hired Drs. Wood and Qutman before we met with them because we were doing a study of depth. Why were you doing a study In depth? We have a number o changes coming about in Englewood and I think it's procedure in all school systems that you survey your schools every once in a while, Just the same as in a business you take inventory to see what's happening, what's going on. That I would say basically is the reason that we were making a study. But you were interested primarily, were you not, in the racial situation? That was not primarily the reason. Of course, the racial issue would be included in the study, but it was not primarily at the time we hired Drs. Wood and Gutman. Mr. Perry, you have been teaching for how long, yourself?
A
Well, I'm wondering if that question is germane to the rest of your statements. I don't believe that that has anything to do with This, of course, is beyond you and I to decide this. The
JOHN F. TRAINOR OFFICIAL HCPOHYE* 'TNKHTON. M. j.
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in Commissioner has to decide.

MR. LEBSONt
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I have a witneaa of
great competence but I'm trying to let him on hia own because I have no i'ears as to what he says; but at the same time if you are going to try to make him an expert witness you are going to get an objection very fast. So I can't object until I hear the whole question. MR. BRESLIN: Hay I state also this witness has a right, a, very proper right I'm sure it's obvious to all of us that he is a most Intelligent man he has a right to inquire now whether this attorney is attempting to qualify him as an expert because he can stand upon his rights as an expert and say yes or no. If he says yes, did this counsel make the arrangements provided by law if he is calling him? to know* THE COMMISSIONER; What is your purpose in this line of questioning? MR. KUN3TLEH: I'll state quite frankly what my line of inquiry is. I'm going to ask Mr. Perry from whatever experience he has as a teacher that's all I'm concerned with I'm going to ask him what his feelings are about the composition of the
JOHN P. T R A I N O R
I think he is entitle
OFFICIAL HKPOMTEN TRENTON. N. J.
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Lincoln School as to its effect on Negro children insofar as a teacher. He can give this answer. Now, In all of the five desegregation caaea that were united in Brown, teachers testified, quite a few teachers, not as experts in the field of psychology and psychiatry but as teachers who have observed students in I school and they all gave their opinions as to I won't go into the opinions as to what they thought from their experience was the result of an all-Negro school on a Negro student. This is within their own knowledge and their own observation. If he has no observation and he has no knowledge, he can say he doesn't know or he has no opinion because he hasn't observed. If he has observed and has opinions, I think i&ey are gerruane to thia proceeding here. MR. LEBSGN: If your Honor please, I stated at the outset that I would not accept any testimony on any level as it affects any other area other than the City of Englewood. Mr. Perry is a teacher. He is not a teacher in the City of Englewood, not in the State of New Jessey. If
Mr. Kunstler has problems in the City of New York or State of New York where he cooes from, those are their
JOHN F. T R A I N O R OFFICIAL HlfORTlH
TMKNTON. H. J.
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pleias over there. Mr. Perry's experience as a teacher |tbe City or New York would have no bearing on this hear> ; at all and I don't think he should be subjected to je questions. He is here in the capacity as President
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the Board of Education, a member of the Board for which j -i is responsible, but not as a/teacher in the City of j ' ' k becauae whatever happens to be bad over there, j * ' kt's their problem not mine^.y Vie are only interested In / / jlewood, I object to this question being asked.
MR-. KjUNSTLER: Mr. Commissioner, I
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/f ' jnt to clear up something/ because this was raised before,
mentioned Kansas and South Carolina and so on. MR. I2EBSON: MR, BKE3LIN; i Mississippi and all over. MR. KUNSTIER: ntioned it. Mi. BRESLIH: We are in Englewood. You mentioned that I I didn't. You did.
You have been down
associate ourselves with Mississippi or Kanaas anywhere else, and we are proud that we don't. KE.COI-IMISSIOHER: ?. iCunatler. M..KUNSTIER:
JOHN T. TRAINOR
You may continue,
May I continue?
orplciAU rttfctnrmm TKKNTON. H. J.
ie observation is merely this, that it is our point dch we ore urging before you that segregation in a Lassi'oom has the same effect on children whether they re sitting in Mississippi, Englev;ood or New York, and the jre fact of the state locality doesn't make a segregated Laasroom any easier or worse to bear- and that the sltuaion is exactly the Carrie -from one place to another. [hat score, not on the quality of the echools, not on there they are located, but solely on the question of what ,t doea to the psyche of a Negro child, and that's what ['m primarily concerned with. MR. LEBSON: It doesn't make it so because Mr. Kunstler says so. This is an additional at|teapt for him to testify as to what goes on. I'm. not On
interested in what he thinks. We v;ant witnesses h$re. This witness has been called by him, lie has taken a very definite step and a dangerous one for him if he understand our practice. He is making him his witness. Vihat he does
in the City of New York aa a teacher and his experiences have absolutely nothing to do here, and I object to it.
THE COMMISSIONERi Mr. Kunstler,
I'm going to rule that we are going to confine this to the segregation as it exists in Englewood and its effects
JOHN F. TRA1NQR OFFICIAL HEPORTVK YMKNTQM. N. J.
REPBCDUCED FRCM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCKUT
-150on the children in the schools there for that reason. Mil. KUNSTLER; I'll accept that and go one step further along; another line. BY MR. KUNSVLERs Q Mr. ferryf as the President or the Board of Education of Englewood, New Jersey, la it your, opinion that a classroom containing only Negro chlldren> as has been testified, here earlier today exists in this ease, creates a situation which ia better for a Negro child than MRO be in a classroom where there is a mingling of the races as hte would meet in the outalde world? And I'm talking about the elementary grades now only.
MR. LEBSONj If your Honor please, I
object to the form of the question. Beyond thiit I also object to the fact that the question should first ue aslced as to whether he has an opinion before he aaka what is his opinion. And beyond that, he is an individual member of the Board that speaks only aa a board and only by the official actions of the Board vian any member of the Board speak for the Board. For those reasons, I,object to the form of the question, MR. BRESLIN; May I just add to that? I submit that this question is not the subject of
JOHN r TRAINOR OFFICIAL KHPONTKR
TRENTON. N. J.
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testimony and opinion of a witness unless he Is first qualified as an expert, Before that is done, the right, of cx'oss exauiination has to be granted and everything else.
What I'm saying is, unless he is an expert, unless he1 been qualified as an expert, this question is not a question which is legally evidential. This type of question oity
could be answered by an expert* because if Mr. Perry can, anyone else again can, and I submit that our law states that this type of question is the subject matter of expert testimony and that otherwise it's not admissible. MR. KUNSTLER: Mr. Coramlasioner I
would just like to say this is the President of the Board of Education and I think he is eminently qualified, vfithout sitting up here with five othe? members of the Board, to state whether from his observation of the situation in Bnglewpod alone I'm not talking-about New York or Mississippi or anywhere else from Englewood alcne, whether he feela that the type of situation that prevails In the first grade in which Deborah Sprulll now finds herself 13 better for that child than beln^ in an integrated classroom. That's the only question. I think he is a
professional in this situation as the President of the Board. He is charged with the responsibility of supervislig
JOHN P. TRAINOR OFFICIAL MBPOKTCH
TRINTOH. H. J,
CDUCE
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these children or at least the grand design with reference to these children.
MR. LBBSON: If your Honor pleaae,
I'm sorry to have to do this but I Just have a client to defend and these kinds of unfair statements If counsel
wants to bring all the witnesses In the world that he wants to to prove affirmatively his position by witnesses who can tell what happened In Englewood, that's one thing. But to ask an opinion of the President of the Board of Education makes him an expert witness for which no foundation has been laid; and there being no foundation, he cannot be asked this opinion. And even If he had one. It
could only be an opinion of the Board because no Indlvldua nan or member of the Board has an Individual status where there Is an official Board that acts by Board action and by Board official minutes. That's my position.
MR, KtTNSTLER: Commissioner, I'll
withdraw the question for the moment and attack it from another viewpoint. MR. KUN3TIBR: Hr. Perry, have you ever visited Lincoln School? I have. When was the last time that you visited the school?
JOHN f TRAINOR OrriCIAL mPORTKM THBMTOH. N. J.
KHOXKH3 FPOK
3LLEETICNS CF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
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The opening day of school, This year. I September '62. ft In the past eight years that you have bean on the Board have you visited the school upon other occasions other than last September? Yes, I ;have.
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I On how many occasions, approximately, do you think? i I can't go into how many /approximately over a period of eight years I have visited the school. Naturally, as a teacher in another system I am at work at the same time that the pupils at the Lincoln School are in session, so that it's very seldom that I can visit the classrooms at the Lincoln School. But I have once or twice because we
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do have one or two holidays that are not at the same time. I I think that's a reasonable answer. the Lincoln School MR. LEBSON: anawerj it's a truthful answer. MR. KUNSTLER: truthful answer then. MR. BKESLlNi
JOHN r THAINOR OFFICIAL MEPOMTmH THKHTON. H. J.
In your visits to It's not a reasonable
It's a reasonable, I submit that none of
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us should make these statements. My friend from New York started - MR. KUNSTUBRi. I withdraw the statement. VR BSBSLINj -.-ejwl Mr. Lebaon want into it. z think we MR. KDNSTUERi statement. THE COMMISSIONERi I think these i withdraw the
statements are not necessary., I'll ask counsel to refrain from them as far as possible. In your visits to the school last September and prior thereto, hav* you, yourself, noticed the racial character of the pupils of the school* T I say, counsellor, it was not necessary for me to visit the school to observe the racial character. I have known of the racial character for years. Anduhat is that racial character? 1M1, the racial character is, as frequently stated, it's opr than ninety per cent Negro, I Now I want to ask you this question. Again from your : experience as a member of the Board and as President of tl Board, do you think that such a school as far as the
JOHN f. TRAiNOR
OFFICIAL RKPOMTKR
THKMTON. N. J.
155
Negro pupils are concerned offers to the Negro students
as good a place in which to get an education, taking all the considerations into play, as would be the case if the school were more evenly balanced racially?
MR. IEBSON: If your Honor please,
that's objectionable for so many reasons I hardly know which one to take first. THE COMMISSIONER: It's not necessary, Mr, Lebson, I'm going to sustain the objection, recognizing that the President of the Board is a layman; he is not qualified as an expert on a question of psychological and sociological significance. Q Hr. Perry, the three men you have mentionedDrs. Dodson, Gutman and Woodwere authorized to do this in depth study of the Englewood schools. Was that under the super vision of the Superintendent of Schools? A They were to work under the direction of the then Superintendent of Schools, Pr. Harry L. Stearns. Q And to your knowledge, did these three outside men and Dr. Stearns work together on the preparation of such a study? A I don't know how they worked but they were responsible to Dr. Stearns. Dr, Stearns, in turn, edited the report
JOHN F TRA1NOR OFFICIAL MKPOMTBM THRNTON. N. J.
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which you are holding and which familiarly la called the Stearns Report although it ia not the Stearns report. Q A Q It la a report to the Board of Education. It's a report to the Board of Education. Outaide of Dr. Stearns, were the three other menDrs. Gutrnan, Podaon and Wood-paid for their services? A Q They were* They were paid by the Board of Education. Is that correct? A Q They were. Did Dr. Stearns receive any other compensation, other than his normal stipend a.a Superintendent?
He did not.
MR, BRESLIN: I hope he didn't. Q You Indicated that this was the report which I hold in my hand. I was going to show it to you and ask you if
this was the report which you have Just testified to that Dr. Stearns edited after these men had completed their study. MR. LESSONi Just a minute. With
the same reservation that you made before, the matter of identity only, I have no objection.
THE COMMISS1DER:
JOHN F TRAINOH OFFICIAL HKFOMTKN
TWIN TON, N. J.
That's correct.
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158 Commissioner, this Is offered under the same way we accept

ed the map over there, that we are not offering the truth of all the allegations In here. I think they can be prove by other methods. But we are offering it as the report which the Board received and upon which the Board acted. They did something because of this report. MR. LESSON: We did not do anything because of that report. That's our position. Read your answer, Mr. Kunstler. You seem to have difficulty in not having read your pleadings. is no mystery. I object to it for all the reasons which I've stated. THE COMMISSIONER: Gentlemen MR. LEBSON: If this map bothers them, I'll take it down. That's for their benefit. MR. JCONSTIfiR: I'm not bothered by the map, THE COMMISSIONER: I think we have reached the end of our - MR. LEBSON: that question. THE COMMISSIONER! I'll reserve I decision on that question until tomorrow morning when we
JOHN F TRAINOR OFFICIAL REPORTER
TNBMTON. N. J.
Read the answer. There
I'd like a ruling on
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will commence at ten o'clock in this room, MR. LEBSON: Before you do that* sir, may I just ask this question. Mr. Brown has subpoenaed various members of the Board of Education. It
must be known to everybody that members of the Board of Education are not on full time in the City of Englewood. They all have toelr respective positions which we are tryIng to respect. If he can give me some Idea who he wants for tomorrow, I will try to have those people available* Just as an
example, one of the members of my Board is Director of one of New York's biggest hospitals. I have other men who are equally employed. We have witnesses here from the State level. We have other people. If he can give
me some idea, I'd like to know. That's Number One. Number Two, I would appreciate very much If your Honor would make a decision on the earlier request which I mode about Friday because it has twofold purposes for , me; not only that, I want to know what I tell my people in Trenton. And it seems to me that I have other commitments on a lower level in another court fox* the same day, which I want to give answers to. I can't be in three places at once. So I would like to have an adjudication
JOHN r TRAINOR O F F I C I A L KftPOKTKM TKBNTON. N. J.
there because I'd like to make known that I-will be there. So if you can tell me that, if Mr. Brown can tell me who his witnesses, or Mr. Kunzler, are for tomorrow, I'll try to accommodate them. THE COMMISSIONER: I hope that counsel will be able to anticipate with, some degree the witnesses they will need day by day rather than having a great body of witnesses here day after day and not called. At the same time I hope we will not run out of witnesses because I want nothing to delay these proceedings. MR. KUJJSTIER: I only have one more on the School Board outside of I'll'. Perry. That's Mr, Hintz. I will call nobody else.
THE COMMISSIONER: uim tomorrow, Mr. Rons tier? Will you reach
MR; KUN3TLER: Yes. MR. LEBSOH: He was here this moaning on subpoena. All or our people were here. MR. BROWN; Mr. Commissioner, we also have Mr. Hintz on subpoena, so he will be here tomorrow. John Perry has to return fpr tomorrow. I have made arrangements with Mr. Lewis to call him when he is needed. He la on call; he is under subpoena.
JOHN F THAINOR
OFFICIAL RBPONTKH
TMKNTON. N, J.
,
tomorrow?
S MR. LEBSON:
161 You expect him for
MR. BROWN: Depends on how you and Mr; Breslln MR. LEBSON: Are you calling him? MR- BROWN: Yes, MR. LEBSON: For tomorrow. MR. BROWN: Yes. MR. BRESLIN: Depends on your friend from New York. As long as you are talking about Mr. Lebson and myself, let's be fair. It depends on three of No. You say on call.
us.
MR. BROWN: I also have Dr. Shedd, Superintendent of Schools under subpoena. MR. LEBSON: He will be here every
day.
MR. BROWN: I wibh that the Commissioner direct the persons that are under subpoena to return tomorrow. And also, if the Commissioner please, we have under subpoena duces tecum certain records that we want produced here at this hearing. I was Informed by Mr. Lebsqn that
JOHN F. TRA1NOR
OFFICIAL MIPOMYIR
TMCNTOM. N. 4.
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certain records which are certain minutes of the Committee of the Whole of the Board of Education for the years I960, 1961 and 1962 and 1963 will not be produced. MR. LESSON: I did not say that. I
said that Mr. Brown Is going to have to make his statement '/ ' J and he Is going to'have to meet the ri.ules. Certain things that he's asked for he Is not going to get. Now, ... J j i i . -. ' -'/ If he wants to argue it now, let's argue ltynow or we'll argue that tomorrow morning. Just because' he asks for / '. .' , things you know, It pomes to a point where you can be
friendly Just so long, which I have tried to do with Miss
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Morris. But that we'll meet tomorrow. But the records that he has subpoenaed, those that we will give him, will be here tomorrow. I111 have the clerk here.
MR. BROWN: Mr. Commissioner, I
think I have a right under the subpoena duces tecum that if any minutes are taken at any meeting of the Board of Education or the Committee of the Whole, which is a part of the Board of Education, I have a right to havei those records here tomorrow. If I need them tomorrow and they are not here, I'm afraid we are going to have to adjourn
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this hearing until they are produced. MR'. LEBSON: We '11; meet that
JOHN P T R A I N O R
OFFICIAL NCrOKTVH THKNTOM, M. J.
tomorrow. I'll do It right now, so you will do some studying tomorrow you are not going to get committee meetings. THE COMMISSIONER: We are over-late to deal with that question tonight. We will take that up in the morning. MR. LEBSON: Those are the only witnesses thfct I understand he will want for tomorrow. THE COMMISSIONER: Just a minute, Mr. Let)son. Mr. Kunstler, you are presenting your case. You will calll yet MR. KUNSTLER: Mr. Perry and Mr. Hlntz, Over here is Dr. Stearns under subpoena. MISS MORRIS: Yes, he is. MR. IEBSON: That's your witness. MR. KUNSTIJ3R: That's our witness. THE COMMISSIONER: You will call Dr. Stearns and Mr. Hintz tomorrow. MR. KUNSTIBR: The only one of their witnesses is Mr. Hintz and Mr. Perry. That's all. MR. ISBSON: I understand Mr. Kunstler. And Mr, Brown says he would like Mr. Hintz and
JOHN r T R A I N O R OFFICIAL NEPOKTKIt N. M. J.
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;Dr. Shedd and he had some arrangement with Mr. Lewis. We'll respect those. THE COMMISSIONER: Now, Just a minute. We are dealing with the Sprulll case now. MR. KUNSTIER: That's right.
THE COMMISSIONER: And I'm trying to find out what witnesses you plan to call tomorrow, Mr. Kunstler. MR. KUNSTIER: Just finish with Mr.
Perry, I thought we could get through with him today, but unfortunately we can't. Mr. Hintz tomorrow and then Dr. Stearns briefly and then I think that'a all for me tomorrow. I understand that Dr. Dodson will be here later. Is that right? You are having him come here. So
that will be all as far as I'm concerned tomorrow. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Brown, you can anticipate, when Mr. Kunstler finishes tomorrow,who you will call as part of your case. MR. BROWN: I have four other witnesaea for short periods who -have no connection with any you are talking about officials.
JOHN r TRAINOR
OFFICIAL REPORTER TRENTON. N. J.
MR. IEBSON: AB it affects me. THE COMMISSIONER: We will adjourn until ten o'clock tomorrow morning in this room.
(At 4125 p.m. the hearing was then adjourned until Tuesday, April 2,. 1963j at 10 a.m.
I, George A. Sakson, Certified Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of testimony.
Gertlfied/yshorthand Reporter
JOHN F. TRAINOH TMKNTON, M. J.
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IN THE MATTER OF ENGLEWOOD SCHOOL HEARING
Transcript of Proceedings :
April 3, 1963 Hackensack, New Jersey
PART 1
RICHARD YERZY for RICHARD YERZY ASSOCIATES Certified Shorthand Reporters 19-01 Hillery Street Fair Lawn, .New Jersey
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Stearns - cross - Breslin
N. A. A. C. P. with Miss Morris. I consulted with Miss Morris.

Q She said she represents them?
MR. TATE: A That's right. Q
He said in New York. City.
That's right.
Were you unwilling then? A Yes, I was. I told her that I did not wish to testify. Q
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Where is your residence?
71 Glenwood Road, Englewood.
Q Were you within the subpoena power of the i' "-.'.' City of New York when you went over there in preparation for this trial? A/ No, sir. I did not go there in preparation for I was in New York, in my office, conducting
this trial. my business. Q A
Did you go there willingly?
Z went to the office willingly, conducted my business. She came there to see me. Q Did you receive her willingly?
I did.
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When she came to your house last Tuesday
night, was that willingly or,unwillingly? A I told her that I would receive her. Q Did jou receive her willingly?
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Stearns - cross - Breslln A I was not anxious to have her there.
-7 Q A Did you receive her willingly? 1 was not anxious to have She came to the house.
her there. Q How long did you sit down and talk with
her then?
A About half an hour.
Was that against your will that you sat
and talked with her?

A
Yes.
(Argument.) A (Continuing) Yes. I was unhappy about it. Q A Did you talk about your testimony?
Not very much. Q What did you talk about in a half hour?
She came and told me that she would like to have
the report admitted in evidence and there was a discussion as to how it would be placed in evidence. Mr. Brown -Q
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She asked you discussed with you the
legal manner of producing this record in evidence? A She discussed with me the procedure of placing the in evidence. She told me it would probably have This was the purpose of her
report
to be read in evidence. coming there.
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Stearns -cross ,- Breslln
I was suffering from a cold. I told her I didn't think my voice would stand it. Q versation?
Did it take a half hour to have that con-
Well, you twist these things around quite a lot. Q Please answer my question. I am not
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twisting anything around.
It did take a half an hour, yes, and some other
questions about boundary lines which they asked about. Mr. Brown was with her. Q A Mr. Brown, the attorney for the Ancrums?
Yes. He was the man who served the subpoena. Q Now, I want to get one thing straight
which is not clear in my mind. You went to New York City, I believe you said, in August or September of 1961? A That is right. ~Q "A Now, who" "did" "you -"-"" / Well, I said, "August or September."
It was in September of 1961. Q
Who did you talk to there? A Well, I presume you are talking of the time I went
to the N. A. A. C. P. I went to New York City many times. I want to the National Association for the Aevancement of Colored People's office in New York City
*,-'
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE >5ANUSCRJPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Brealin
to see Miss June Shagaloff because the Board had agreed to admit or to consider the approval of some consultant which they would recoumend. Miss Shagaloff had not produced it. I needed it and I went there to get it. Q My simple question to you was, "Who did
you see there." The simple answer is the lady you mentioned? A Miss June Shagaloff. Q Now, after that, did you see any -- when
did you next see anyone from the N. A. A. C. P., either in Englewood, New York City or anywhere else? (Objection by Mr, Brown.) |A I do not remember the date. (Discussion off the record.) |A (Continuing) I do not remember dates. During the fall I had a whole parade of people coming to my office from various organizations. Q When -- I'm sorry.
I do not remember dates. There were one or two people from the local
0
S, A, A. C. F. who came to my office along with other eople at different times, I saw a lot of people. Q Will you give me the name, again, of the
dy you saw first in New York City? Mies June Shagaloff.
COLUCTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Q A "Miss" or "Mrs."?
"Miss," I believe It is, Miss June Shagaloff. Q When did you next see her?
I think -Q After--
^/-"A
I think the next time I saw her was yesterday in the
courtroom. Q
A
Yes.
Yesterday?
""/
"-"'-.
.-s - -
j -_..Are you certain of that? j 1 am quite certain. , , Q Q Was she at any of the subsequent meetings
Now, when did you first see Dr. Dodson? A Sometime in September, after this meeting. I do not
remember the date. ~~Q" -A Where?
In his office in New York City.

Q
Did you bring materials with you at that
time?
;A
No, I did not.
Q A
You had a discussion with him?
Yes. I was there at the request of the Board to in-
vite him to become a consultant.
Q Please answer my questions, Doctor, and we will save a great deal of time. (The pending question is read.^
Yes.
Q How long did that discussion take? I do not recall.
. '-'.*
Q Approximately how long?. A I do not recall. T.; Q You have no idea whether it was five hours or five minutes? A It was neither one. Somewhere in between.
Q Well, was it more than an hour, according to the best of your memory? A I doubt if it was more than an hour. Q A When did you next see Dr. Dodson?
I do not recall the dates. Probably it was when he
came to Englewo.od to take up his duties, to meet with.the other consultants^ Q A Approximately, when was that? Sometime
r -
I do not recall. Q
Approximately when?
Sometime late September or early October.
Q Now, where was that conversation or discussion? Where did it take place? A The one that I recall was in my office in Englewood
with the other consultants.

Q A Yes. Q A Yes. Q A How long did that discussion take place? It was in your office? And that was Dr. Gutman and Dr. Wood?
Well, the consultants were present all day. Q Pardon?
The consultants were present all day. I think Dr. Dodson I don't recall exactly, but
I believe he arrived at noon. were there in the morning. Q
The other consultants
. Do you have a secretary or stenographer
or did you, at this time? A Yes.
Did you make any notes of this meeting?
No. Q You did not?

r
No.
Q
r,
There was no dictation by yourself, or,
to your ilbwledge, by any of the experts at this meeting?
A;Thatis-coT-rect.. _
Q Now, when did you next see Dr. Dodson? MR. LEBSON: Pardon me, Mr. Breslin.
What was the date you are talking about?
OF CONGRESS
10
ME. BRESLIN: I think he said late September, approximately,
I IB that correct?
THE WITNESS: Late September or early October. I do not remember the dates. Q All right. That's not too important.
When did you next see Dr. Dodson? A I don't remember, but we saw him during different
times during the course of the study. Q This meeting was held in your office?
Yes. Q Did you meet any other place that day?
No. Q Did you go any other place?
We went for lunch. . Q Did you go any other place in the City of
Bnglewood, in the school system?
No. Q Did you visit any of the schools?
I have forgotten whether that was the time, but, at
one time, we drove through the city and looked at the schools. Q Drove through the city?
Yes. Q And looked at the schools?
REPRODUCED FROM TOE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY*
OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin A Yes. Q
11
At any time, did any of these consultants
go into the schools? A Yes.

-
Q A
When?
I do not recall. Q When, approximately? ^~
I do not -- sometime between September and the time
we rendered the report. Q A Who went into the schools?
All three of them. I'm not sure that Dr. Gutman was there. Q Pardon?
I'm not sure that Dr. Gutman was present. Q But you are certain that Dr. Wood went into
each school? A Not every school. Q A What schools did they go into?
I do not recall. Actually, we dia not go into the schools. We drove *
past all of them. Q So, it is correct that none of these con-
sultants went into the actual schools in the City of Englewood? A I do not recall.
REPRODUCED FROM THE COIiBCTICNS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT
DIVISICNf
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q
12
Well, to the best of your memory, did any
of them ever go inside of the physical school or any of the physical schools in Englewood? A I told you I do not recall. Q Well, when they came to-Englewood, weren't
they always with you?

A
Yes.
s So far as I know, they were with me. They may have been in Englewood at times, not to my knowledge. Q Well, I only can ask you about your know-
ledge and that's all I am asking about. Now, approximately, again, and if you testified to it, I want you to do it again, approximately when after September or early October, the first conference of the consultants and yourself, approximately how long thereafter did the consultants again come to Bnglewood? A Well, they were in Englewood approximately once each I do not recall the dates nor the intervals between. Q months? A September, October, November and December -- they Approximately once each month for how many
month.
were here in January. Q six times?

t
So, they were here approximately five or
May I say, sir, that the record --
^H& ^

No.
13
The record of the Board will show this, I am not interested in the record of the Board. I have a right to ask questions to test your memory, Doctor, and please don't suggest questions to
me.
I do not recall the exact dates. Q Now, you did get me off the track already.
Each tine they were here, were there consultations?
Yes.
Q Were there any notes dictated, at that
time, at any of those times? A Dr. Wood, at one time, dictated a statement, To whom? A My secretary. Q Where is that statement? Is it available
in the records of the -A I do not think so. He dictated it into a dictating machine. It did 'not come out very clearly. Q You say that it was dictated into a
dictating machine?
Yes.
*"
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q And it didn't come out clearly? That's right.
Q Had you ever bad any'difficulty with that dictating machine? A Sometimes.
Q Who did the actual repairs of this dictating machine? A It's not a problem of the machine -(Objection by Mr. Tate.) Q Did you have a concern that repaired these dictating machines? A It was not the fault of the machine. Q Please, Just answer my question, Doctor.
I can argue with you and you can argue with me and it serves no purpose. You may think you are winning, I may think I am, but it doesn't help the Commissioner. A I'm not interested in winning or losing. Q Now, will you please answer my question?
Who, ordinarily, repaired the machines? A It was an Ediphone and I believe it was repaired by the Ediphone Company. I didn't have charge of repairs, I don't think it had been repaired. Q Who was in charge of repairs for the City?
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE >5ANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin A Mr. Maniscalco. Q ..
15
When the dictating machine didn't work

-'*
properly or else it didn't come out clearly, did you attempt to get another substitution of that and have it replaced so that you would have the memo in*an audible manner so that it could be reviewed by any citizen? A The memo wasn't that important. Q A That is your determination?
Yes, it was our determination Q What did the memorandum say, then, and
let's have the record. A Well, it was a statement that Dr. Wood made in refer-
ence to a section of the report which was in his particular field Q A What field was that?
Political science. Q Why was it dictated if it wasn't important,
Doctor? A Because I had made a statement. Re wanted a state-
ment similar to it, putting in his views. fCconsiderable part of it came through clear. He was not accustomed to
using that machine and we constructed enough of it to satisfy him. Q memo? Well, what happened to the reconstructed
" ^
Stearns - cross - Breslin A It was a work sheet and was destroyed. Q A When was it destroyed?
16
Well, sometime in the process of putting it together. | Q Am I correct that there are no memorandum
of any nature whatsoever that can be examined into by this Commissioner as to the detailed preparation of this* report? A Oh, there may be correspondence in the official
files.
Q A What type .of correspondence?
Letters back and forth in which the Board agreed .' with them to serve. Q I am talking about the make-up, Doctor,
J J
i!
of the report, the conclusions of the report. A No, sir. It was agreed that the final report would be accepted by all of the consultants and that nothing else would be saved . _ Q
/.
In other words, what you are saying was
you got together and you had an agreement; everybody was going to accept the same conclusion. Isn't that the truth? A No. MR. BRESLIN: Will you go back and re-
peat the last question and answer, please? (The requested portion is read.)
#.'
Steams -cross - Breslin Q
17
It was agreed that the final report
would be agreed to by all consultants? A It was agreed to by all consultants after Q In other words, there was never any in-
tention of any disagreement but that you would all get together and someone would yield and you would have a unanimous report. A Is that correct?
That is not correct. Q Well, you say it was agreed that there
would be a unanimous report, did you not? A You have changed it. It was agreed that the report would be unanimous or else any one of the consultants not agreeing to it would withdraw. None of them withdrew. There was considerable debate. The final result was put together in Rutgers University in Dr. Gutman1s office at which various memoranda, including the one that Dr. Wood had dictated, were considered and after they were all put / together, the originals were destroyed. Q Now, that debate in that debate some-
one~tookan sffrmative~sde and someone took a-negative side as to a philosophy or a conclusion, did they not?
No. Q What .is your definition, as an educator, Is it between adverse thoughts?
Doctor, of a "debate"?
SEPRCOUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin A A comparison of ideas. Q A
18
Is it between adverse thoughts, a debate? 1
Not In the context in which we were doing it.
would not call it a debate. Q In other words, there never was a dis-
agreement on this great national subject matter between you three experts. Is that correct? A No serious disagreement. Q A None, at all?
No serious disagreement. Q Well, were there any disagreements in
principle on any one subject or conclusion? A Yes, Q What were the particular subject matters
upon which there was debate or disagreement? A As I recall it, Dr. Gutman was of the opinion that
the sociological trends in Englevood could not be stopped. Q A Yes?

r
Dr. Wood was of the opinion that they could be
stopped by positive action of the Board and the City. Q A Who yielded on that disagreement? the disagreement was not that
Well, I don't
serious; Q Well, Doctor, there was a disagreement ;
one expert had a philosophy of the trend continuing and
Stearns - cross - Breslin one said it wasn"t going to continue. Now, obviously, one gave in, didn't he? A Yes. Q A Who was that?
19
Veil, the report includes a statement that the
Board Q Doctor, please? A I think you should have Dr. Gutman and Dr. Wood I am asking you the question who it was,
compare their ideas rather than for me to report what they, said and how they agreed. The report (Comment by Mr. Breslin.) A (Continuing) Well, then, I will say this: That I
refuse to answer for Dr. Gutman and Dr. Wood. Q That is not my question.
My question is: Who yielded, since you vere all three together on these discussions, when you came to a conclusion? I am asking you. You were there. Who
r
yielded? A I am not sure that Dr. Gutman is quoted correctly
by me. He should speak for himself. The report says that the Board of Education and the City can do something to correct this. Q You have testified '
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF TOE .MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRI

A This was one of the points which you say was a
20
disagreement and a discussion. 1 **-'. .'...

The report says that the City and the Board.of Education can do things to help this situation. This was Dr. Wood's position. Dr. Gutman, if he_
held a different position, was not serious enough about it to withdraw. Q You have testified and I am not going
to leave this subject -- you have testified that Dr. Gutman had one philosophy and that Dr. Wood had another philosophy. A No. I have testified that Q You have not? You have not testified that
one of them said the trend was going on, go on and get worse and the other one said that it was not going to get worse? A You haven't testified to that?
Yes, I said that. Q All right.
Now A The question is not essentially saying that they
have different philosophies. Q What other subject matters, if any, of
these consultants what other subject matter was there any disagreement or nonagreement with the philosophy
If*
EuuetU i'HOM THE COLLECT
I Stearns. - cross - Breslin I of one of the others? I:A I don't recall that there was any. Q
A No.
21
None?
Now, would you admit that this subject
matter is a matter of great national difference and debate among educators, sociologists? I A' I can't answer that question. - -'/ (Objection by Mr. Lebson.)
(Continuing) What subject matter do you mean?
I ' !
jy
Q . This racial imbalance or racial balance.
Yes. Everybody knows that it's a matter of discussion. Q Is it a matter wherein the expert educa-
tors and sociologists of national importance have different views on the matter? A 1 do not know that.. Q ""Wellr, didn' t you study the views of the itionally-recognized leaders in the field of education id sociology in A Such as whom? Q Please. I wasn't finished. Maybe you thought I was. Oh, excuse me.
Stearns - cross - "*
"1J~
22
(The pending question is read.) Q A -- before writing your report?
I relied on Dr, Gutman to give me the field of

Ij-ij^.-. -
sociology. Q In other words, on that subj ect matter you

*
relied solely on Dr. Gutman?

A That is what his purpose was. Q That is not my question, please.
The answer is "yes". Q And you, yourself, independently, did not
make any studies, consult any books, educators of national importance with respect to sociology. A Is that correct?
No, I did study some of those books. Q All right.
Now, what ones did you study before you arrived in considering the subject matter before you finished your report? A I had reference to a book by Jean Gottman. Q A Who was that book published by?
I don't recall. It's cited in the report. If I can refer to it, I will give you the rest of
it.
Q Gutman? A No. I picked it up from an advertisement. Was that citation given to you by Dr.
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q A. Yes. You picked it
23 up from an advertisement?
What part of that book or what subject
matter of that book is in this report, if any, artd show me where it is in this report? A I will have to have the report Q A You may have it.
May I refer to the report? (Statement by Mr. Breslin.) (A recess is taken.)

-r
THE WITNESS; We were referring, I believe, to Jean Gottman's book. It is entitled
"Megagopolis." It's published by New York20th Century Fund. It had just come out. I
picked it up and asked the consultants if he was a respectable scholar. They said he was. (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) Will you state, for the record, the page -/The Gottman book is referred to on several pages, Q
A 52
Well, let's stick to one at a time.
The
one you are referring to, what page is that on? A Fifty-two. Q All right.
Now, before you get off 52, please don't be
BEPPDDUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF HE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin ahead of me -(Comment by Mr. Lebson.)

Q
24
Is the exact language quoted on Page 52
of Jean Gottman and, if so, will you read the language which is quoted? A This is not exact language because it's not in
quotes. It's our interpretation of what.he said.
It's your interpretation of what he said.
Fine.
Now, will you read the language which is your interpretation of what Jean Gottman said? (Comment by Mr. Lebson.) A In reference, "Withdrawal of middle and upper
class families, white and Negro, represents an element of a pattern which, in long perspective, results in deterioration of a neighborhood and of a town. This
pattern is well documented by sociologists who have observed its course in other communities. As a neighbor-
hood begins to deteriorate, the better families leave. Their homes are occupied by lower income people and this trend then becomes cumulative," and owe refer to Jean Gottman1s book, Page 700 and to Oscar Handlen, the book entitled "The Newcomers," Cambridge-Harvard, Massachusetts University press, Page 14. Q Now, am I correct, therefore, that the
Stearns - cross - Breslin language that you have just read is not your language
25
or the language of Dr. Wood or the language of Dr. Gutman? A It's my language stating what they have said in these
books. Q No.
It is your -- didn't you tell me that it was withdraw that. Isn't that the substance of what was stated by Jean Gottman in that book? A Yes. Q A So they are not your thoughts, are they?
That.is correct. Q They are not Dr. Wood's thoughts, are
they? A Not unless he agrees with me. Q Well, I mean, as set forth in this report,
you have said that it was the language of this book or the substance of this and put in~ths report. a fair statement?
A
Is that
r
Dr. Wood will have to speak for himself, but I be-
lieve that he agrees with this. Q No.
I am asking you if all three of you didn't. agree to take this language paraphrased. A That's correct, yes.
REPRODUCED FRCM TOE COU^CTICNS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION,
LIBRARY QF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q A And have it put in this report?
26
Yes, all four of us. Q All right.
Now, what is the next reference and what page, first? A You still want me to confine to Gottman? Q A That's all I'm talking about now.
On Page 46 regarding "mobility of population" and
this is an exact quite from Dr. Gottman1s book, "It has been estimated that one American out of five moves in ' an average calendar year/' Q All right.
What is the next page and the next language of Dr. Jean Gottman? A This may be all. I'm not sure. I will have to look
through it. Q Well, I thought that was the purpose of
the recess, Doctor -- go ahead -- so you can be absolutely certain.

r
Then, on Page 66.
; ri I
All right.
Tell us the language. A In which we describe the characteristics of the
region.
Q I want you1to read the language. I don't
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS, OF THE MANUSCRIPT"DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Steams - cross - Breslin
27
want you to read a conclusion. I want you to read the

language. 1 think you said 66? A Page 66. In reference to Chapter 6 entitled, "The Impact of% Metropolis Characteristics of the Region," and we say, "This chapter is devoted to identifying the forces and changes which are external and which arise within the broad complex of the twenty-two counties of the New York region and, indeed, the forces which play across the entire Atlantic Seaboard," and a reference is to Jean Gottman1s book. Q Now, is that an exact transcript or is % ' .
that a paraphrasing of your interpretation of what is said in that book? A No, it's not an interpretation of what is said in It's a statement of the contents of this
the book.
particular chapter and we are referring to Jean Gottman's book because he deals with these forces., Q My question to you is, is that language
you have just read an exact quote from the book? A It's my language. Q A No. Of Dr. Gottman?
Was there some reason why you didn't
CDOCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY
OF CONGRESS
teams - cross - Breslin uote word for word?
28
Because we are referring to his entire book, and ,t contains many hundred pages.
'*
Q So, you took out how many sentences of out. ;at, of the whole book and -- strike that
Am I correct, then, that what you have read is your language of things that were said in the itire book? Is that correct?
Well, it summarizes the contents of the book. "The complex of twenty-two counties in the New York Region--" Q naste time. You have read it. Now, please, don't
Let's not get off the track.
I am not.
This is the topic of Dr. Gottman's book and we
pferred to the book, the entire book.Q You have said that.
-I would like, again, to find out how many |mtences ar-e-in that language you have just read. Will you please count the sentences? 'Tread to you one sentence. Q Well, is that the entire quote on that
,e, one sentence from this book? Referring to Dr. Gottman, yes. Q How many pages is that book, do you know?
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q A
29
How many pages is that book, do you know?

*-
Dr. Gottman's book?
Q
A
Yes,
I do not recall. Q Approximately how many pages? It's a voluminous book. Several
I do not recall.
hundred. Q Now, are there any other references in
that book to Dr. Gottman? A The next page, 65. "Jean Gottman has ably recounted the movement of people, their social, economic and political characteristics vithin this complex metropolis covering a slightly larger area in which he records thirty-seven million people," and the thirty-seven million people are referred to on his Page 7. Q Now, please, I want you to read what is
r
on the particular page we are now on. Have you added something about thirty-seven million relating it to another page of the report or is that thirty-seven million just a minute, please -- is the thirty-seven million set forth on that page? A Thirty-seven million is recorded on my Page 65. Q Now, please, is -- are the words-"thirty-
seven million" on that page?
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CON
Stearns - cross - Breslin Now, that is a simple question.

A Yes, yes.
30
Q
A
How many sentences are on that page?
On the total page? Q Of Dr. Gottman.
How many sentences?
This is- not a quotation from Dr. Gottman. Q How many sentences are relating to Dr.
/J .~ ---._
Gottman? A One sentence.
One sentence.
y
And they, then, are conclusions of yours from a reading of the entire volume. Correct? A He mentions thirty-seven million people. I quote
it MR. BRESLIN; Will you please repeat the question? Will you please answer the question? (The pending question is read.) A I did not read the entire volume. Q You didn't read the entire volume?
A
. i
No. Q
.
What parts of it did you read?
--
I do not recall. Q Well -_ _ i
It was used as a reference book.
^PRODUCED. FROM TO COLLECTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION,
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross.t Breslin

Q
31
"Well, did you just pick out the things
you wanted to pick out?
We picked out the things that referred to ^what we
were writing about from the index. Q You picked out the things you were looking
for, didn't you?
Yes. Q Well, how do you know what was in the
rest strike that out. Do you know what was in the rest of the volume? A No, A general idea that it was a general discussion
of the entire metropolitan region. Q Yes, but you didn't read the whole volume?
No. Q You don't know what was generally in the
volume, that part of the volume which you didn't read. Is that a fair statement? A We had consultants in this area. Q those? A Dr. Wood and Dr. Gutman and Dr. Dodson. Q Well, I realize it is difficult, but my Oh, Well, now, who were these? Name
problem is difficult, too. I don't want you to think I am prying unnecessarily. A It's all right. Q Now, you are saying that are you now
FROM THE
OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
32
saying that some of that language is Dr. Gutman's and
Dr. --
A NO.
Q -- and Dr. Wood's? I wrote this sentence. Q A Oh, you wrote that sentence?
%:
*-
Where it says, "Jean Gottman has ably recounted the
movement of people, their social, economic and political characteristics within this complex metropolis covering a slightly larger area in which he records thirty-seven million people." 1 referred to the page where he records it. This is my language. It was agreed upon by the consultants and it is our judgment of what the book says. Q Are there any other pages where reference
is made or language is used which is adopted from Dr. Gottman's book? "A I have not located another citation from D . Gottman. r. Q -By the way, Just for a moment, to change
the subject matter, when were you subpoenaed in this case? A I don't have it with me. .Q A Approximately. I think it was .
I think it was one.week ago Saturday night. Q That was after you had consulted with
Stearns - cross - Breslin Miss or there was a consultation between you and
33
Miss Morris in New York, wasn't there? A Right.
Q witness here?
And you still say you are an unwilling
Yea.
I told Miss Morris, at that time, I did not
wish to be subpoenaed. Q Well, you had a conversation with her
in which she discussed what your testimony would be, didn't you? A 1 am not so sure that that vrould describe the con-
versation. Q A Yes. Q A Yes, yes. I told her some of the things that I could testify to. Q Wall, of course you did. You knew that she was preparing this -You say that you knew she was a lawyer?
And you knew that she was preparing this case for trial? A She told me so. Q And you knew, didn't you, that once you
told her what you could testify to, that you would be
PRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

a witness? A I'm afraid I had to admit that this would be the
34
case, Q '-* ; Do you still insist you are an unwilling
Ltness in view of all that?

Yes. I'm not happy about being here. Q Well, you are not happy because of the
time, particularly, it is consuming. Is that a fact? [A That is a fact and I am also not happy about being
-involved in the case, Q Well, you willingly talked to Miss Morris
before you became involved, didn't you? A She asked if she could come to my office to see
me and I said she could come. Q Ifor? A

^B- .
Didn11 you know the purpose she was coming
I have forgotten -- I guess she did tell me, she
Evas a lawyer representing this case, yes. Q Now, will you tell me what other language
Bn that book is adopted by any is adopted, which is the language of any educator or expert in the field of education or sociology? (Objection by Mr. Brown.) Q Now, I would suggest you start at the
Beginning and any language you recognize as a language
FROM. THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
teams - cross - Breslin

substance of -- I think I will change it. Put it this way.
35
I want you to go through that report from the ning and state to me, sentence for sentence or paraby paragraph, whose language it is. For instance, it's your language, say so, but if it's Dr. Wood's nguage or thought that you finally drafted up in final bra, you, using the substance of his thoughts, I want to state it. I want you to state the same with rect to Dr. Dodson and where the thought or the subject tter is not any of those persons' names, 1 want you state whose thought or substance or reference it is. (Objection by Mr. Tate.) THE WITNESS: Mr. Commissioner, if Mr. Breslin would permit, I think that I can speed up the process by dealing with sections rather than by sentences and pages. MR, BRESLIN: I will not agree. I want
to have this record clear. (Argument among counsel.) THE WITNESS: MR. BRESLIN: I made this statement before. I suggest you not get into
these arguments.
It is most difficult for my friends and I
to keep our sense of balance.
Stearns - cross - Breslln THE WITNESS: MR. BRESLIN: I'm sorry.
36
I am perfectly willing to
ask him if he will now testify under oath that each and every sentence of these 63
*
first
63 pages are his independent thoughts and con-
*
elusions solely. But, I want the record to show it is or it isnft and, if it isn't, I want to know whose it is. (Objection by Mr. Tate.) ~~*v BY MR. BRESLIN: Q Doctor, do you state now that the first
sixty-three pages of this report were composed by you and that they are solely and completely your language and thoughts and not the thoughts, in any respect, of ari^ôf the other experts or any other person? A I cannot testify to the latter because they would
agree --. (Obj ectibn by Mr. Tate.) (Argument among counsel.)

r
COMMISSIONER GROEZINGER: I think the record is becoming clearer as to how the report was made and who made it. But, will you answer this question, Dr. Stearns? A I would like to phrase my own terms and see if Mr.
.REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY QF CONGRESS

Breslin will accept it, if it is permissible.
37
When he says that this is not the thoughts of the other two consult three consultants, I cannot sub-
scribe to that because they agreed with it. Q That is exactly what I want to find out.
What parts of it were discussed, what language of it was given to you by these experts? A you? I will testify that the first sixty-three pages were written solely by me. May I try a statement to see if it is acceptable to
Q A
That is not the question.
May I have the question, then? MR. BRESLIN: I am going to do it my way, subject, of course, to whatever -THE WITNESS: May I have the question? 1-will answer it. MR. BRESLIN: Please, please*. I am addressing the Commissioner. I am going to do it my way, then, in accordance with what I conceive to be the proper method, subject, of course, to whatever ruling the Commissioner makes. So, I had better proceed that way and _ unless you have some other suggestion. I am

-
38
perfectly willing to listen to it. But I want to make clear I am going to 1 don1* care how long it takes me. I want to find out
' A
whose language. (Further remarks by Mr. Breslin.) Q Doctor, in this report, you state, "Miss
Lillian Bopp, likewise, as secretary to the superintendent, also went beyond the call of duty in the arduous task of , typing and retyping the preliminary pages of this report." v Where are they? A They were destroyed. Q A Doctor, when were they destroyed?
At the time the report was finished. This was our
finished product. Q And; isn't it true that those preliminary
IreporttT showed disagreements or differentôpinions from dif fereiitêxpert a ?
No.
(Comment by Mr. Tate.) Q Your answer is, then, that the preliminary
reports, also which have been destroyed, showed complete agreement between all the experts on this great national problem. A Is that correct? I answered "no" on that.
I didn't understand it.
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISICN, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin MR. BRESLIN: Will the Court Reporter
39
please advise the witness -- read the answer. (The requested portion is read.) A I didn't realize that I had made that answer. There were some differences of opinion which were ^ edited out of it and it was agreed that they were not significant enough to keep any record of it. Q
: j/
In all sincerity I ask of you that you
please not anticipate the questions that are coming next and I think that we will save a great deal of time. Now, you say that you didn't understand that question when you answered it? '' " it A That's right. Q A "No." Q Are you thinking when you are answering Pardon? ''.
I did not understand the question if I gave an answer,
these questions, Doctor? A I am trying very hard to. (Comment by Mr. Tate.)
r
Approximately when were these preliminary
reports destroyed, Doctor? A I am afraid I hadn't made it plain to you how this
was put together,

Q Will you please answer my question, a
Steams - cross - Breslin

simple question? A
40
Approximately, between the dates of the first of
October and the first of March. Q How many copies of those preliminary
reports were made when they were made? A I do not recall.
Q A
Approximately how many?
Three or four, enough to each consultant. Q And these preliminary reports were made
by whom? A I made them. Q You made all of them?
Yes. Q Were they given to a stenographer to make
up? A Miss Bopp typed them.

Q A Were they dictated? Most of it
Either dictated or written in longhand. /-
in longhand.
Q A
Were some of them, dictated?
I do not recall. Q You don't recall whether any one was
dictated? A That's right. Q Well, could any have been dictated?
Stearns - cross - Breslin A It is possible. Q
41
And how was the operation conducted? Is
there a stenographic book which the "secretary has? A No. These were dictated into a dictating machine. Q A Into a dictating machine?
I do not recall that I dictated any of it. I think
most of it was in longhand. Q Well, you gave her invaluable what were
you speaking of when you said, "Miss Bopp also went beyond the call of duty in the arduous task of typing and retyping the preliminary pages"? Doesn't that refresh your
recollection that there was extensive typing?

A Yes.
Miss Bopp went to Rutgers the day that we put the report together. There had been a preliminary statement made at the time, which she had typed. This was edited, which would be in the course of any editing process. Much of the -- I won't say "much of it", some of.it was rewritten, some parts were moved around from one place /' to another, which necessitated retyping in its final form, cutting stencils and running them through the mimeograph machine.
"\
A That's right.
None of those are available now?
When you run them through the mimeograph
Stearns - cross - Breslin machine, how many of them would you put in there? (Objection by Mr. Tate.)
42
Q reports?
A
Were there any stencils of the preliminary v%?
I have got to clarify ~ Q No. Just, please, answer my question.
Were there any stencils of the preliminary reports? A There was no thing which we would call a preliminary
report. Q
-
Well
I can tell you what happened, if you are interested
in listening. Q Now, I don't want those remarks about if It makes argument between
I am interested in listening.
you and I, Doctor, and it doesn't serve any purpose. Doctor, we are talking I want to use your language -- I am talking about the preliminary pages. What do you mean by that? pages? A What were they, the preliminary
r
This was a set of mimeographed stencils which were
prepared after I had written the material during the month of February and we put it on stencils in order that we could save as much of it as possible from the editing process.
ru^KUUUCED FROM THE COLLBCTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Q
43
Are you saying I don't want to cut you
off and I am trying to save time. Are you saying that the only type of preliminary "pages were the finished product of the report? A No.
In other words
No. Q -- there was different language in those
preliminary pages? Some of it was dressed -- not "dressed up"., but changed, wasn't it, before it became final? A Yes. Some of the preliminary statement I typed my-
self. Some of it Miss Bopp typed. In typing, it was sent it was in very rough language. It was not sophisticated,
It was edited and it grew in this process and it was thrown away. Q Let me see if I can get to the point by
this question: Were those preliminary pages the exact language of-the final report?
Now, were there any mimeographs made of
those preliminary pages? A Not if you refer to the ones which I -Q A The ones you are just talking about, just
Can we Identify what we mean by "preliminary"? During the months from September to about the 1st
Stearns - cross - Breslin of February, different ideas were pat in writing. Q All right.
*
44
Now, before you get off that, were any of those "-': :..-- . ' stencilled?
A
No.
All .-right.
j
Now, go ahead. After that, what was next done?A Then, during the month of February, I took the jj j J material which had been assembled and wrote an initial draft of the final report. Q All right.
Now, stop there, if you don't mind. Was this initial draft then mimeographed? A Yes. I typed most of it myself and it was then
mimeographed. Q It was mimeographed?

r
Yes.
Q Now, are there any copies of that avail ; I '
able?
Only those parts that which are
in the report. Many of the stencils were kept and went '-.'. right through into the final Q You say only that part of it or those
pages which are in the report?
Yes.
*'
PRODUCED FROM.THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q
45
Well, what was the subject matter of the
I other pages which are not in the report for which the ' I stencils are not in existence. A I do not know. Most of it went through here. There
were some stencils that had to be corrected for spelling and proofreading, so much that they were worn out and IVE had to type the stencils over again. Q bout now. As I understand your testimony, there were -Bus a preliminary report and some or perhaps most all of Hat was mimeographed. That is not the subject matter I am talking
Yes.
Q Then the final report was made up. Not
HjU. of those mimeographed pages of the preliminary report ere put in the final report. That1 s right.
Now, what was the subject matter of those
ges which were not put in, if you can tell us? t Well, I do not recall all of them, I can refer to
tain sections here which were edited when we got topther to do this, Q I am asking you only to tell us.what
K&tences, what pages of the preliminary report which - , wre stencilled and not included in this report, what
Stearns - cross - Breslin was the subject matter of those pages? A I do not recall every one of the ones that were
46
thrown away. Q Your answer is that you don't recall?
Yes. (Comment by Mr. Breslin.) Q Doctor, will you take, first, the para-
graph of the introduction on Page 1? Are the thoughts and language there entirely yours? A Yes, the words are mine. Q Well, now, you start you say, "The
words are." Are the thoughts
Yes. Q -- and conclusions all yours? ^~ You see, I don't want an answer, The
Yes. Q
words are," because you have clearly stated that these are all your words. I am interested in the thoughts or conclusions. Now, will you take the second paragraph? A "Historical background." Yes. Q All right.
The third does that include "Post-War Growth"? I assume it does.
Yes.
REPRODUCED FROM THE OOLLFJCTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q And the rest of that paragraph, "Post
47
War Growth"?
A Yes. Q
;*
: ;
And the "growing pains", referring spe;
cifically to Englewood on Page 21 Skip the chart on Page 3. A Yes. Q A Yes. Q A Yes. Q Correct? A _Bage 5, I assume, is all yours? Page 4?
Thoughts, conclusions and language.
Yes, such thoughts and conclusions as are reported
there. Q of that._ MR. BRESLIN: Will you repeat the last part of that answer? (The requested portion is read.) Q A Yes. Q A Yes, yes, Q And language? All of your conclusions and thoughts? Page 7. Is that substantially yours? I am sorry. I didn't hear the last part
REPRODUCED FRCM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

A
Yes.
..... '':
48
Page 8, is that solely yours, and none
of the other experts? A Yes.

*;
Q Yes.
Q
Page 9 Is also the same?
Page 10?
Yes.
(Comment by Mr. Tate.) (Luncheon recess taken.) BY MR. BRESLIN: Q Will you please tell us what parts, what
language was not written by you? A This is quite an assignment to do within one lunch
period. Q A Sorry, I can't hear you.
Quite an assignment to do within one lunch period.
Q A
I am still sorry. 1 cannot hear.
It is quite an assignment to do within lunch period,

I --
to review this entire report. Q I am awfully sorry, Doctor. I apologize.
But, it is a matter of urgency. You will have to do the best you can. COMMISSIONER GROEZ1NGER: Please answer the question as best you can.
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT
DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin THE WITNESS: All right.
49
On Page 33, Chapter 3, I wrote all of it. They are
my ideas, carefully scrutinized by Robert Wood who was an expert in this planning.
Page 46 to 52, I wrote all of it. They are my ideas. Dr. Gutman was specially interested in the migration patterns.
Well, that is not answering
we are not
solving the problem here.. I asked you, specifically, what language, what ideas are those which originated in this instance with Dr. Gutman? A None of these except in discussion he was interested
in this set of these set of data. Q In other words, this is not any of Dr.
Gutman's ideas or thoughts? A He suggested that these data be collected. Q A Pardon?

r
He suggested that these data be collected.

Q Well, he didn't collect this data?
No, he did not. Q So, am I correct; then, in assuming that
and I am referring to, I believe you said "46 to 52 -A Yes. Has to do with mobility of student population. Q That the ideas therein contained and the
Stearns - cross - Breslin A Yes, the two pages, 87 and 88. Q Eighty-seven and eighty-eight.
;%;. .
51
Go ahead, A This is the result of the ideas of all three of us.
I do not know who wrote it. Q Specifically, can you tell us which parts
or which statements are the ideas of Dr. Gutman? A No, I cannot. Q Dr. Wood? A I cannot. Q Can you tell me which part of it are the Can you tell me which are the ideas of
ideas of Dr. Dodson? A I cannot. Q ideas? A I accepted all of them. Q This came as the result I am Can you tell me which part of it are your
I em not asking about acceptance.
asking whether or not any of these are your original ideas, not given to you by any of the other consultants. A Let me review it again, please. (Objection by Mr. Tate.) A (Continuing) I wrote the first paragraph. Q And they are all your own ideas and none
of them were suggested by any of the other experts, is
Stearns - cross - Breslin that correct? A Well, this I cannot tell. :% Q Pardon? I cannot tell whether It was theJLr idea or not,
52
whether they entered into it. It's my idea.
I wrote it.
Not very much of an idea expressed here. It is a statement of fact. Q I wish you would not:continue to say you
wrote it, because it is clear, as I understand it, that you wrote all of it. Is that not a fact? A Not quite all of it. Q Your answer is, "Not quite all of it."
Go ahead, Doctor. A Second paragraph I cannot identify as to who origi-
nated that idea. I probably did, but I am not sure. The last paragraph on top of Page-88, I'm sure I wrote that and that it was my idea. Q By the way, before you go any further,
am I correct that you have thoroughly analyzed this report during luncheon hour, or have you not? A As thoroughly as the time will permit. You can't read every word within that time. Q that time? A No, I did not. That is impossible. So, you did not read every word of it in
REPRDDUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

A Yes.
54
Well, can't you point <jut, at least, the
paragraphs regarding the sociological problems upon which you relied for the language? A No, I cannot, Q Well, then, I request that you do that.
This, I submit, is a vital part of this issue. A That is impossible, to remember who wrote this. It
. came as a result of discussion. Different people wrote . paragraphs. They were accepted by the group and put in. It is Impossible to.
I do not recall. Q A
Doctor I am sorry.
(Continuing) It is impossible to recall who wrote
each paragraph. Q Doctor, you testified yesterday and again
today that with respect to the sociological problem, you reTied T>n~D"rr~Guttman. A That is true.
r
Now, did not that mean that you relied on
him for the ideas and the conclusions? A Well, the rest of us were putting in ideas and con-
clusions. He was the final authority. Q Did you rely on Dr. Gutman for the socio-
logical problems? (Comment by Mr. Tate.)
Stearns - cross - Breslin A Dr. Dodson has also been trained in sociology.
55
Professor Wood is quite sophisticated in it and I cannot tell you where the original ideas came from among the three. Q So, you also relied on Dr. Dodson, the
expert chosen by N, A. A. C. P., for part of the conclusions with respect to the sociological problems. Is that correct? A As a member of the group. (Objection by Mr. Brown.) Q A Yes. All three of these consultants suggested ideas. cannot identify them. Q A Yes. Q Is it true that some of his ideas and You just My question is related solely to Dr. Dodson. I Do you understand the question, Doctor?
conclusions were used in the final language? testified to that, didn't you?
Well, you started your question differently than you
did before. Q All right. Go ahead.
(Objection by Mr. Brown.) (The pending question is read.) A Yes.
REPRODUCED FRCM THE OOUflCTICNS OF Uffi MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRAS?
OF CONGRESS
Stearns - cross - Breslin School System,"
57
I think this was a section which Dr.
Gutman wished to have included and it came as a result of a great deal of discussion between the various people. I do not recall the ideas that they put in. I was not present during all of it. Different people wrote
different paragraphs and I cannot identify which one it is. Q A Well Q Now, please', You say that you were not there when
You say you were not there when some parts of it were discussed. A Is that what you just said?
I was there when it was discussed, not when it was
written. Q Did you just say you were there when some you were not there when some of these
of these ideas
ideas were discussed. A I have forgotten whether Dr. Wood and Dr. Gutman
got off into a room and discussed them by themselves.

r
It is possible that they did. Q A Did they do that in various situations?
No, no. This was Q This was a particular situation?
Yes.
It was during the final writing process at
Rutgers University.
*'
Stearns - cross - Breslin Q A Pardon me?
58
It was during the final writing process in Dr.
Gutman's office at Rutgers University. I was present. I was writing certain parts, they were writing others. Q room? _/ Didn't you say that they went into another
Yes. ..
Q You don't know what discussions they had in there, do you? "A No.
Q You don't know what view .one took or the /other took of any particular subject?
No. Q You don't know how they arrived at, by
compromise or otherwise, to the final language, do you? A I do not think there was any basic disagreement. I
think it was primarily a question of discussing the wording in which it should be stated. Q I am asking you, do you know, of your own
knowledge, what views of those two in that room were compromised?
A i
A
i
No, I do not. < < i Page 97 and 98. Hie middle of the page, starting,
0 [
Go ahead.
"For our generation." I wrote1 this. I had gotten some
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE 'MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRI
Stearns - cross - Breslin of the ideas from many from a lecture which I had heard delivered by W. Lloyd Warner. This was in the area of sociology.
59
Dr. Gutman looked it over Carefully, supplied the references with which I was not familiar and itI came About in this way. I wrote it, but the ideas originated with Dr. Warner who was not present and.Dr. Gutman, as a sociologist who is familiar with his writing. Q How do you know that Dr. Gutman looked this over carefully?
A
Because he was present and read it. Q Well, could you just, by sitting: in a
roc-n, seeing someone looking at a. document, testify that you are positive that the person, when they were reading it, was looking it over carefully? A That was his responsibility as a consultant. Q I understand that.
So, I would suggest you testify as to what you observe, yourself, and know, yourself. Now, I ask you again: Did you have any positive method of determining that Dr. Gutman read this over carefully, and, if so, tell us how you come to that conclusion? A I came to that conclusion because I saw * him read
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CON
60
it and because he proofed it. He is not & man to proof things without reading them carefully. Q day of life? A No, but my experience with him was that. Q How long had you known him before this, Do you know that?. Do you ses him in every
at all, if at all? A I had never met him before he came to Englewood the
first time. Q A You had never known him before?
That's right. Q Never sat down and discussed any problem
with thim? A That is correct. Q A Continue, Doctor.
On Page 99, "The school as an instrument of coa-
snunity planning," is Dr. Gutman's influence. Q A I didn't get the last few words.
"Dr. Gutman's influence," Q I don't understand that. What do you
mean, "influence"? What do you mean by that word? A This was his idea. I think he -wrote it. I have
forgotten who did, eventually. Q All right.
.REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY .OF CONGRESS
Steams - cross - Breslin Go ahead. A
61
On Page 101, I cannot identify whose influence it
|jvas. It sounds like Dr. Wood's ideas, but I cannot testify that they were his, originally. wrote it. Dr. Dodson explained the citations at the bottom of ie page. Q Well, Dr. Dodson on this page states his I do not recall
ideas and philosophy, doesn't he? A I stated them and quoted -Q

r
No. Please answer my question without
arguing? A
it.
Dr. Dodson did not write this, so he did not state
That is not what I am attempting to seelc
and I am afraid that we are, going to have to go over this | all over again. I thought 1 made it clear that you were to tes-
tify and give this Commissioner the substance of the (vritings, tJhera the idea was of another person, to so st^te Ht; that we had assumed that you had written this 'shole report. Now, I ask you again, isn't it true that the second paragraph on Page 101 is Dr. Dodson's ideas and [conclusions?
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARM OF CONGRESS
62
Yes.
Q you not?
And you took that from Dr. Dodson, did
Yes. Q That was not your idea, at all, was it?1
That's correct. Q And it wasn't Dr. Wood's, at all, was it?
I think we both agreed. Q I an not asking you if -you agreed. I am
J -''/.
not asking you, at all, about that. I am attempting to establish whose idea it is.
-
Now, was it not Dr. Dodson's idea and stated to be his idea and thought? A Yes, the part which ia quoted for him. (Conclusion of Fart 1.)
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLBCTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
REj
IN THE MATTER -of-
: : ; .TRANSCRIPT OP PROCEEDINGS
ENOLEWOQD SCHOOL HEARINGS
'*
PART 2
Paul A. Kelly Certified Shorthand Heporte
FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
OSS-EXAMINATION OP DR.
HARRY L. STEARNS BY MR. BRESLIN:
[ontlnued.) Q
Will you proceed, Doctor?
On page 102, I wrote the page but I'm not certain >ut the last paragraph. Q Doctor, I will caution you again. Please do |t mention that you wrote the page. Please tell us whether or not these pages contain ideas or conclusions of others than your own. That's a difficult question to answer because they do. all agreed on it. Q I'm sorry. But this report, it's difficult for and that's why we both have a problem. Do the best can. i I am doing the best I can. erate with you, air. Q Will you continue? test" answer I eaTi give to page 102 is that it was ea, I suggested it. It was accepted and agreed upon. I nay last paragraph and the following page sound like (MioodB, but I'm not sure that he wrote it. written it all myself. Q Q Continue, please. Pardon me. Would you take care of 103? I an trying very hard to
On page IQk dealing
REPRODUCED FROM THE COIiECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearn* - Cross

i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Yes. That was included in the statement that i made. Q
All right. That applied to what is on 102 also. . . ;-.' Is that correct? A The bottom of page 102, yes. Q
A 103
But page 103
Mas an answer to the statement is included
in the answer that you gave with respect to the bottom of page 102? A That is correct. Q A All right. Oo ahead.
Page 104, I wrote it. It's my idea. Q Please. It's
It's my idea. Q Exclusively your idea?
Yes.
Oo ahead,
19 20
21 22 23 24 25
A Concurred in by the ether doctor. Dr. Dodson supplied. the references to Atlantic City and Baltimore. Q A That is on what page. Doctor?
Page 1 4 0. Q By the way, did you attempt to get any
statistics in Washington?
I did not, no.

Q Did you know of the tremendous national problem
Dr. Stearns - Cross

i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 -19 20 21 22 23 24 25
with all the publicity about the Washington problem? (There is an objection by Mr. Lebson. There is argument between counsel.) Q You say Dr. Dodson gave you the information
with respect to what? A Atlantic City and Baltimore. Dr. Dodson consulted
in these areas and he knew of the situation there. On page 105 where we start with the school as an organized enterprise, I cannot recall who originated the idea. I think, probably, it was Dr. Woods, but we all agreed readily that it should go in, and either Dr. Woods or I wrote it. I cannot recall which. Q Now, Doctor, I Just want to offer a suggestion
once again for the sake of saving tine. When you say "we agreed," that compels meas you continuously reiterate, probably to justify your position, you compel me then to start asking another series of questions. I will just give you an example. When did you agree and where did you have the meeting that you agreed on this? A At Rutgers when we were doing the final writing. Q Had you' had one meeting at Rutgers at which
you agreed on this language that you were Just referring
to?
Yes. This is when we did the final writing.
TOM THE COLLECTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CCNGI
Dr. Steams - Cross Q Were there any preliminary reports submitted
individually on this subject at this meeting when you all agreed? A Not on this subject. Q A Yes. Q Without any differences of opinion of any nature
*'.
And was there absolute, complete agreement on
the ideas without any
Mhatsoever? A Yes. Q
;]
/ , Co ahead.
Chapter 9, page 107 Q Pardon me. Did we cover 106?
Yes. That is included in the answer on page 105. I All of Chapter 9, 107 i ny work. Q A Yes. Q A And not assisted by Dr. Qutman of sociology? And entirely your ideas?
That's right. Q Were there any reasons why you didn't ask him of the school plan
for his opinions on this feature
j related to racial imbalance?/ / E A He saw it. He had a chance to comment on it. Q That's not my question, what he saw, Doctor.
I A There's no reason why I didn't ak him.
REPRODUCED FROM THE COIiECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, UJiKAKi ur v_^v
Dr. Stearns - Cross 1 || 2 || 3I 4 || s I! 6 i 7 || 8 || s || io.ll n 1 12 || Q You felt that you were qualified yourself to Is that correct?
draw this paragraph or Chapter 9. A
This is primarily statistics on theEnglewood School
System, which was my specialty. Q Veil, they are reItted to racial Imbalance,
are they not? A Yes, the statistics indicating location of students
and distances and so on. Q Related to racial imbalance? That's the
heading of - the A That is right. Q chapter, isn't it?
13 II
u || is ||
Yes.
Q Will you continue, please?
Page 114, proposals for dealing with the problem of
16 II racial imbalance, this is all ny work, that entire chapter, 17 II carefully scrutinized by all and I have one exception. -19-11
20
three of the consultants, On page 126, the lastpage
126, this is included in the chapter which I claim is mine. Q In other words, from 114 on you- are covering Is that correct?
21 U
now by this answer.
22 ||
23 || 24 || 25 ||
Yes.
Q Cto ahead.
Except on page 126 at the bottom of the page. This
statement was very carefully scrutinized by the consultants
Dr. Stearns - Cross

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
I wrote it; and the references at the bottom of page 127 were supplied largely by Dr. Outnan end Or. Dodaon. cannot identify which one supplied each. Q Getting back to that one you mentioned on
*-: '-
I believe it was page 126 which you aaid was carefully scrutinized by all of u, I think, written by me. Co you understand the one I am talking about?
Yes. Q Now, do you state that the substance of that
paragraph are your original ideas alone? A Not ay original ideas alone, although I have had
quite a bit of experience with it. Q I suggest you just answer my question. Now
it causes me to ask another one. What is the great experience you have had in this subject? A Living in Englewood with this situation. (There is a discussion between Mr. Tate and the CooBiasioner.) Q In 127 you referred to the experience in some
r
communities which is more than Englewood, isn't it, Doctor? I will withdraw the question. (There is a comment made by Mr. Brealin.) Q continue. Oo on to the next page and the next language,
but I want to assure you I will not give tip if you
Dr. Starn - Cross

1
2 3 4
I'm sorry. I'm not experienced in this type of Q Just try and listen to the admonition.
~i
business. A Many of your questions, if I answer then directly,
5 6 7
8
do not represent ay correct opinion. So, I have to explain than. Q Don't-' A It's as distasteful to me as it is to anyone. I think I must confess that the time before lunch ran out at this point. (There is a discussion between Mr. Breslin and Hiss Morris.) (There is a recess.) THE WITNESS: Ve were at page 126 where I had made a notation about the paragraph at the bottom of page 126 and had noted that on page 127 the citations were supplied by some of the experts. Q A I'm sorry. Vhat was that? Some of these citations were supplied by someI Don't try and become an advocate. I don't want you to say anything that is not fully answerable.
9 10 11
12
13 14 15 16 17 18
19
20
21
22 23 24
said expertsj consultants, whatever you want to call them. At the top of page 130, the paragraph which refers
25
'REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearna - Croaa to a major weakneas in the preceding suggested assignment, IB Dr. Dodson's concern over this program. He did not discover it until the report was praetieally written, and out of deference to bisque included this paragraph. ft That is a vital paragraph of this whole report,* That Mas stuck in iin't it? Look it over and study it. at the end by Dr. Dodson, wasn't it? {A Yes. I said this is Dr. Dodson's concern, and it
J
[ Was put in. ft This is the vital paragraph upon which a great
"* /
[ part of your conclusion has been reached, is it not, in

/
that it say* a major weakness in the preceding suggested aiaignnsnt lies in the high ooneentration of Negroes left ; in the Liberty School? A That's right. ft -report T ft A Continue. It was a vital paragraph, but a-. Bodson
suggested this after you bad written a preliminary
on page 136, the supplemental proposals having to
MO with a primary school to be built on Lafayette Place, Is Dr. Dodson's idea. ft A What paragraph ,1s that nowt Entitled "Supplemental Proposals" on page
H04 THE OQUKMOHS V? THE MHJUS
Dr. Stearns - Cross 10
Q A A A ft Q Yes. Q A A A
I'm sorry. The page? Hill you continue with your answer? Have you answered fully on page 136? I said it Mas Dr. Dodson' idea. Now, before Me get off that, that again was
Page 136. On page 137, the Englewood
submitted by Dr. Dodson after the preliminary report? No, no. ft Yes. Q When, approximately, if you can remember? I can't tell you. Some time in the course of Q That paragraph also is one of the basic is Veil, it Mas submitted by Dr. Dodson?
discussion. conclusions upon which your report was founded, that a fact? A No. Just a minute. Let me correct what has Just transpired by going back to my original statement that the paragraph pertaining to the establishment of a special school on the Lafayette Place site, this is Dr. Dodson's idea, the development of a nursery school possibly at the Lafayette Place site. It's in the middle of the paragraph Q
25
Where is Lafayette Place with respect to the
chart?
Dr. Steams - Croes A -11Veil, it's approximately in the middle of the green
area. Mr. Lebson can point out the property. MR. XEBSQNt of Education. Here.
THE WITNESS: That la owned by the Board

"
Q A A
That la in the coloredwhere a concentration
of Negro-- : . That U right. Q Yea. Q A A And Dr. Dodson suggested that that would be a homing is?
fine place for whites and Negroes? Yea, a nursery* Q Yes. Q Which would mean the young, tender-year white For a nursery school of children of tender years?
child in any of the other districts of the City of Englewood would be moved into this nursery school. Is that correct? A At their choice. A nursery school is optional for those who wish to attend. Q Well, there is only one nursery school, isn't
(There is an objection by Mr. Lebaon.) (There is,argument between counsel.)
there, in this system?
'REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearns - Cro#s Q A Now, Hill you continue, please?
Page 137* an Bnglewood development program. Has
[professor Woods' idea. That whole section through to ithe end of page 139. Q A All right.
On page 140 Me begin a summary which contains no
nett ideas. It la a summary of the findings in the report ipr the discussions in the report. Q wan. A Starting with page l4l through to page 144 and from pags 146 on are merely statistical tables. Q 141 and 142 are what? Just a oinute, Doctor. Veil, I Bee what you
1*1, 142, 143 is a sianaary of the basic discussions
in the report. Q Am I not correct that they are conclusions
nhica accepted some facts and disregarded some facts? This is the result of such process going through the whole report. Q Can you answer ay question. Doctor? MR. BRESLINi Would you repeat it? (The Reporter repeated the pending question.) I suppose that is correct. Q Now, with respect to those conclusions or
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Dr, Stearns - Cross

1 2 3 4 S
summary, an I correct that certain of the three of you at the same tioe didn't all state, "I cone to conclusion No. 1," or did theywhat I an trying to drive at is, an I correct in assuming that someone of you three first
,
suggested the language of summaries No. 1, 2, 3 up to and including 10? A I cannot answer that question, sir. There were ': Q Let me ask you this; It did not happen in discussions all through the preparation of the report. the manner I now present, old it, that the three of you
6
7
8 9 10
11 12
NO. Q sat down and each of you at the same tine
13
14 15 16 . 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
started off with, "Engletfood is a suburban community lying close to the core area"? Ton all didn't say that at the sane tine, did you? A No, some one of us. Q Am I correct in assuming that as to each of Originated the idea. Q And originated the language? As set forth on those pages? Yes. Q Yes. Q Can you tell me specifically as to each one of
these conclusions, some one originated the language? A
A A
them or any number of them who originallyI Hill put it
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLI^CTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION,. LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearns - Cross two Maya: Who originally aet forth the idea in those conclusions one to ten and who first submitted the language of one to tan? PBrhapa I can aave time. An I correct in aaauning the language of one to ten is exclusively yours? A I think that'a right, yea.
": - , *
I Mill withdraw that.
.
- 1
ft
Now, with respect to the ideaa number one to ten ^/
can you tell ua Mhicb ones of each of thoae the ideaa were originated bjrt A That' is pretty difficult beeauae theae ideaa grew aa I would hesitate to identify each
a result of dlaouaaion. one of them. Q
Let ae aak you thia: You testified yesterday
you glanced at certain books and you relied on Dr. Qutman with reapect to the aociologlcal problem. In any differ-
ences between yourself and Dr. Outnan, did Dr. Qutman'a opinion* always end up aa the final conclusion? A I think so, because I was not an expert in his
r
field. Q Veil, am I not correct, then, that the ideaa
referring to the sociological probleustrike that out. I think you have answered the Question. How, I think we covered the full report, have we not, \, on the language?
Dr. Stearne - Gross

15
i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Yes, to the beat of my ability. Q Now, Doctor, an I correct in assuming that in
1954 the Comnissibner of Education directed that there be no reference to race, color or creed on"any card* or any record* of the Board of Education of the City of Englewood A It was earlier than 1 5 . I do not recall the date. 94 (There ia a cement made by Mr. Brealin.) THE WITNESS: There was a directive which came, I believe, from Dr. Milton asking that no records be recorded indicating race, color, national origin. Q A Waa it before 1950, do you think? MR. BRESLBJj Mr. Lebson tella me it waa long before 1950. THE COMMISSIONER! I think it wasmy recollection may be faulty, but I think it waa shortly after 1948. (There is a discussion between Mr. Brealin Q
.' j' Doctor, generally in this report have you
Thie Mould be a Batter of record in the State Department.
I do not recall. It waa in approximately that area.
and the Commissioner.)
given any consideration to the public acceptance of the probability or the non-probability of public acceptance of any of these recommendationat
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS. OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY 0
Dr. Stearns - Cross

16
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Yes.
This Is referred to in the report.
Q A
Whereabouts?
I will nave to find it. Q Well, have you ascertained whether or not the
public's reaction is favorable or unfavorable in any

manner whatsoever? A I haven't been around Englewood very much. I do not
know. Q A You were there Tuesday night, weren't you? You have been there regularly, hain't you? Yes, but I haven't asked this question. Lete say that in answer
Q You can say what you Wish. But Just remember, the more you say the nore is going to be asked.
10 11
12 13 14
15
16
Go ahead. A A Q
I don't want to cut you off.
Yes. Well, I ao answering your question. do ahead.

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18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
During my experience as Superintendent I had all
kinds of reactions, for and against the idea of breaking up the racial imbalance. Now, as to a personal knowledge of which would predominate, I have no knowledge. Q You have knowledge of the vote of the people . on various of these problems, haven't you? A Well, I think I have read acne newspaper reports, but I have been away from Englewood.
Dr. Stearn* - Croat 17
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
You think you read some newspaper reports.
Doctor? You are not certain that you read any of the newspaper reports?
Well, if newspaper reports are evidence, yes. Q Well, they are evidence of what an election
return shows and a referendum return hows/ in your opinion, aren't they? A I do not know enough about the referendum which Q A You know exactly what I am referring to, the you probably refer to, to make any concent upon it. public referendum;don't you? The public referendum of last fall, I know very little about it other than what I have teen in the papers, if you want to elear it up, and I have had very little opportunity to read the newspapers. Q A Bow long have you been out of the City of Englewood in the pact six months? More than 60 percent of the tine. Q Out of the State? Q You have no interest whatsoever in this
A Yes. situation with respect toI will withdraw that. You retired as School Superintendent? A I did.
Q And gave notice of it before this report was
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Dr. Stearns - Cross

48-
nade up, didn't you? 21

3
Yes.
Have you since that tine followed or inquired
by referendum* or public statements of the feeling of the people of the City of Englewood? A I have paid very (There is an objection by Mr. Tate.) Q
3
Doctor, is it not true that an educator must
accept the results of a public election as the final choice of the people on specific questions and on contested issues? (There is an objection by Mr. Flatoff.) (There is a discussion between counsel.) THE WITNESS: He is probably reading fro* my book. I do not recall all that I put in there. I probably said that, yes.
W
10 11 12 13 14 ! 15
Q _ yours? A
Is that a truthful conclusion and opinion of
_W ! 19 20 21 22 23
: 24
25
Read it again. Q The school leader Bust accept the results of a
public election as the final choice of the people on pacific questions and on contested issues? A He has no other choice. He aust accept it. (There is a discussion betMeen counsel.)
THE WITNESS: If it's an election which
FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearns - Croat

i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 S 10
force and effect. Q

A
Yes.
Are 700 finished now with that answer?
Do you also accept this principlej "The

ultimate recourse of the people In the event board action la contrary to public Mill 1m the ballot box and not the lay committee"? A That is right. Q Would you agree with this principle:
jit-
"Indeed,
considering the power of education to influence men's thoughts, the assumption of the power to determine educational policy by a clique of professional educators or through a broad drift toward professionalism Mould become as destructive of the safeguards of freedom as would the usurpation of power by professional soldiers or professional politicians"? A I wrote that, I agree. Q Would that be acre persuasive and more potent
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11
12 13 14 15 16 17
18
19 20
and more powerful if one of a group of educators had been suggested by one segment of the community without the other segment of tha community, race, creed or color being in that community? A I could not consent to relate the statement that I
21 22 23 24 25
made there to your statement of the election, whleh I presume is Dr. Dodson.
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Dr. Stearns - Cross

i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
f
20
I think you made your answer blear. That
doesn't apply to this cane of Dr. Dodson. That 10 % . your answer. la that correct? A I do not think what I have written there applies Q You say the philosophy that I have just to this case at all. expressed there, thelanguage you have used, does not apply to DP. DodsonT Is that what you are saying? A here. Q I an not talking about the process. Do you say that that conclusion would not even be more potent as being against the public interest if there were a clique of professional educators, none of whom were representing
one of the segments of a dispute?
It does not apply to the process which we are using
11 12 13 14 15 16
J7 18 19 20, 21 22 23 24 25
MISS MORRISi Excuse me. May I have that read baek? Would you read that back for me, his question? (The Reporter repeated the pending question.) Q A Will you answer that question? May I ask the Comissioner for permission to make a Q I'm sorry. I don't think he has any power to
statement here? permit you to make a statement, but I will yield to
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Dr. Stearns - Cross

21
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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
IP 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
whatever ruling be nakes.

THE COWISSlONEft Answer the question ae belt you can, Doctor. THE WITNESS: You have taken a piece out
-'-.
:<t
of context In 07 book and applied it to a particular situation. If you apply the content* of the whole book to it, I will agree. Q
A
Now, ia that what you wish to lay?
Yea. Q Now, I will go over thla word for word and I
want you to tell me where it'a taken out of context related to any other problem. First I will aek you thia: When you aay it'a taken out of context, what do you wean by that? is it taken out of a paragraph or an article which has other references to this same subject matter? Is that what you are saying? A Yea, it's taken outit'a a snail paragraph taken out of one section of the book. I don't recall what section. Q I understand that. But are you saying that I an taking out part of a thought or part of a -complete expression of an opinion? A You are applying a statement there which was
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTICNS OF Tiffi MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
2 3 4 s 6 7 s 9
. 99 deBigoed to refer to the danger of professionalism ...--'. developing among educators and you are translating " the language to assume that the selection of Dr. Codson
constitutes a clique of educators. tern there. Q I don't like to use the word "clique" as you I don't like to use it, but I I think- that' the
Dr. Stearna - Cross
use it in your book.
will stick with your word. My own suggestion would be, and I don't like to be critical of educators A We are critical of each other. Q I wouldn't use that word. I would say a
101 n 12 13 u is is 17 is
19
group of professional men. But since you Insist I use the language, I will. I ask you again, do you contend that I an reading part of an opinion or part of a conclusion on a particular subject and leaâng out sone part of which would change the meaning of this particular sentence? A You would have to read the whole chapter to get
the context. Q I will read this again to you, Doctor. I certainly will read theentire paragraph. "In similar manner"
A Similar to what?
20 I
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24 25
The paragraph is lay committees and how they
are formed.
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Dr. Stearns - Cross

1
A
2 3 4 5
We are not talking about lay committees here at all. Q Now, this whole paragraph, this whole chapter
-.
refer* to lay committee* and it's pointed out in here Where you had to be dangerous of a group of profess local educator* taking over. A In relationship to a lay committee. Q No, in relationship to the danger of permitting"
j j
J 7
A No. YOB Just laidyou said the chapter relates to lay committee*.
10 11
A
12 13
Q Well, we will have to take come time with this. I'm terry. I don't like to take tine, but ; X Q No, you don't hare to be sorry. I an not trying to fight you. (There Is a consent made by Mr. Breslin.) Q The language of this, Doctor, under the chapter
A
14 15
J 'I J
Lay Committees, is, "In slailar manner the fulfillment of tbe high purpose of public education demand* a continuous!: dynamic public Will, Which Is a science to the professlona: educator, the function of research, the function of r administration, and the sidlll and art of teaching, but retains Jealously for the people the power and formulation and determination of policy. When the peppla abdicate this power or when it Is usurped by the professional, then public education become* a
' '
potential destroyer and not a preserver of the ideal
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Dr. Stearns - Cross

-24-
[of freedom. "Indeed, considering the power of education to |influence men's thoughts, the assumption of the power to determine educational policy by a clique of professional [educators or through a broad drift toward professionalism of freedom become as destructive of the safeguardsAa0 would [the usurpation of power by professional soldiers or pofesslonal politicians." Do you agree with that paragraph? Yes. Q Do you now say that this report of this ;ewlttee, including Dr. Dodson, suggested by the ISAAC?, is the solution which the people of Englewood, one of these solutions which the people of Englewood (wit acceptt No, we do not say that in the report. Q In other words, tbis problem Bust be solved B coabination of thoughts of the members of the Board [of Education, their consultants, but also the will of people? That IB right} and our sole rule hereQ I suggest you let it go because I JustI I was about to say I think n't help but say thist
.have finished, but now when you say that it causes b to go on and on. I plead with you sincerely for
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OF CONGRESS
Dr. Steanr* - Cross

i
2 3 4 5
your own good, but I have to go on now. A I as satisfied to go on.

Q Doctor. Veil, none of us have any choice in that,
Now, Doctor, in considering what educators should do to help anyone out, any race, creed or color, any of us, which is the way I'm sure that it is, the only way any of us are entitled to have it Judged, do you not first have to study as thoroughly as possible the reasons for any race, creed or color or any individual childdon 't you first have to try and ascertain the reasons why they are not doing as well as they should or in any other words I wish to express? A
A
6 7
8
9 10 11 12 13 14
15
Yes, sir, we are in agreement. Q Pardon ne?

Ve are in agreement.
16 17
Thank you very nuoh, Doctor.
18 19. 20 21 22 23 24 25
Are there many problem* over which educators, teachers have no control which cause a failure of equal results in education? A Very true, ye. Q Before I go any further, I don't know whether
I an using the right tern froo an educational viewpoint, Doctor. Perhaps I should go to this, this may help us all. What is your definition of higher horizons?
Dr. Stearns - Cross

l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 _19 20 21 22 23 24 25
of.
There is a definition given in here referring to the (There is a statement made by Mr. Breslin.) Q Give ne jour definition.
program carried on in New York City.
It's a definition we use. My understanding of the *'
term "higher horizons" Beans a program carried on consciously toy the school to increase the incentive of any child, particularly in this specific instance, the Negro child, to learning. Q Doctor, that can be accomplished in any school
regardless of its location (There is an objection by Mr. Tate.) (There is a discussion between Mr. Breslin and Mr. Tate.)
(The Reporter repeated the pending question.) Q Can it not? Have you attempted that? Oo ahead, if you wish.
-A Yesv
Q A A Q Excuse me. I'd like to modify that. It can be attempted in any school regardless of its
location. Q A HSve you-The accomplishmentto use your language, the
Dr. Stearns - Croes -27-
l
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
accomplishment 10 always uncertain in any school. Q In any school?
Yes. Q Have you attempted that in Lincoln School
at any tine? A
We were constantly striving to increase the

; .. * __-
horizon* of the children.
Q A
Doctor, my siaple question waa, have you
attempted that higher horizons? Personally, no. The principal of the school and Q Well, the teachers/of course, and yourself his teachers did. included Mhen you Mere Superintendent, are controlled by your budgets and the final plan, are they not? A Yes. There was not, in the Lincoln School, a program such as you could describe as higher horizons at the time I left to correspond with what they were attempting in New York City. We did hot have budget funds for it. f Q Did you ever request budget funds for higher
horizon programs? A I do not recall that we did specifically. Q Would that not be your responsibility. Doctor,
>
14 I 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
if you thought A Probably. This was included in our Child Study
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CCNGRE
Dr. Stearns -
Department and in our efforts along these lines in the employment of teachers, selection of library books.
3 4
Doctor, let me ask youthisj As an educator,
will you agree first that this type of problem with respect to the quality of education should never be determined, if at all possible, if a condition of turmoil and unrest exists in the city between races, creeds and colors?
5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12
(There is an objection by Hr. Tate.) (There is a discussion between counsel.) Q Doctor, haven't you stated, without going through all this, that these problems are never well served in a state of turmoil or confusion? A I would like to do this, but I'd rather state it Q Suppose you state it your way. The best of education cannot be carried out in a
13
14 15
my way.
A
16
17 18
situation of turmoil. That's about what you said, but it's my own words. Q That is perfectly agreeable with me. Doctor, will you give us some of the causes for maybe I can save time. Is it true that performance in school depends on some of these factors: Number one,, individual characteristics of each child?
/ ' : . .
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,,
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Dr. Stearns - Croat

-29A Right.
Maturity, intelligence, articulation and so
Right. Q Guidance, supervision and encouragement of the
J parents? Right, Q Security of home, environment?
Right. Q Training and experience in pre-school years?
Right. ' Q
Yes.
Educational background of parents?
Living condition* in the home, available places
to study and so forth Yel. and so on? Right. Q While I am on that subject, Doctor, were you lliar or are you familiar with the Board, of Health inanceo that have been adopted within the last six seven years? (There 10 an objection by Mr. Tate.) Are you familiar with the program of the It; officials of the City of Englewood with respect
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Dr. Stearns - Cross 1 2 3

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to stricter health codes and building codes for the purpose of improving living conditions, particularly in the Fourth Ward? (There is an objection by Mr. Tate.) (There is a discussion between counsel.) Q Let me ask you this: At about the time of
s 6 7 8
9
this report, while the studies were being made, did you go through the Fourth Ward at all to observe the
living conditions, how many families were

MR. TATE: Did you rule on this? I haven't even finished. MR. BRESLIN)
!o "
12
(There is a discussion between counsel.) Q While you were making this study or before it,
13 u is IB 17
Doctor, did you go through the Fourth Ward and observe living conditions, particularly as to conditions of disrepair or how many families might be living in a home?
i s A W e h a d gone through t h e Ward a n d saw t h e condition i9~ 20 21 22

23 A
of the exterior of the houses. Any information eoneerning the dilapidation of the houses was taken from the U.S. Census. Q
NO.
Didn't you go to the Local Board of Health?
24 25
is the local Board of Healthwhere is the
U.S. Census, Washington?
. .REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Steam* - Croon A The U.S. Census had been In Ehglewood in 1960.
We used their data because it was comparable with the rest of the country. Q You knew there Mas a crash program in Englewood at this very time to alleviate bousing conditions for the benefit of these people, didn't you? A A I was not conscious of a crash program. Q Q A Were you conscious of any program? Doctor, before you retiredwhen did you retire, No, not in the specific details of it.
again, as Superintendent? August, 1962. Q Now, I don't want to be unfair to you. I think
you spent some time before you retired exclusively on this report* Is that correct?
-A--- Right.
When did you retire from the actual administrative
duties of the office as compared with being kept on exclusively for this report? A Well, it was a period when I wasI was constantly in charge of the administrative duties. Prom about the Diddle or the last of September of 1 6 I was devoting a 91 major portion of ny tine to this report. Q Now, before you were relieved of your
Dr. Stearns - Cross -331 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10 11 12 13 14 J5 16 17
adalnlfltrative duties, didn't you keep in touch daily With the local situation and the doings of the mayor and oounoil with reapeot to this problem of housing? A A NO, I did not. Q Q You paid no attention to it. is that correct? Let ee put it this way. Maybe that'B not fair. I can't say no attention when I was not
You have no memory of any particular fact as to what was ' /. / ' being done?
A That is right. Q / , And in your report, did any of you experts
go through these different hones in the Fourth Ward and in the Third Ward to investigate the conditions? A We did not. Q A Did you know how many fanilies were living in
any one house? I assume you didn't, of course. No. There was data in the census report which we MR, LESSONi There'* no question,
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used.
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Or. Stearns. Q .A Now, Doctor/the census report was in I960, wasn't it? Right. Q Did you ascertain what was being done in 1960
after the report had been finished and during the entire
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Dr. Stearns - Cross year of 19619

A .
No.
Q A
With respect to housing?
No. I had a conference with the Chairman of the
5 6
Renewal Program or the advisor on it to discuss the4 whole situation, but we did not go into that in detail. Q Doctor, is it not normally true, particularly
7
8 9 10
in the wintertime, that a child should be able to go to a school nearest their hone? A I can't say that that is a fundamental law or rule. Q Veil, I am talking about psychologically, if
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23
you can answer it. Or if you ere not qualified to answer it psychologically A I can't eay that, psychologically, there is anything
to be said for that. Q Can you answer psychologically as to whether or
not.it's better? J3r are you qualified as an expert in that problem? A I do know that some children Q A No. Are you qualified as an expert?
Not in psychology. MR. EKESLIN: Are we going straight through, or oould we have a fire minute recess? (There is a recess.)
24 25
Dr.. Stearns - Croag

2 3 4
Doctor, ID the Ohio State Report you pointed
out the traffic dangers and the increased dangers in the vicinity of the Engle Street School aa a factor, did you nott A I did not write the Ohio State Report.
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Q I'm sorry. In your 1953 report, Doctor, didn't you put out these safety factors with respect to the Engle Street School? A I do not recall if it was written in that, if it's there, I said it, if it's an official copy. (There is a discussion between counsel.) Now, Doctor, while you were in Englewood as
the Superintendent, the setting forth of districts, the lines of the districts, was that a problem which you were consulted on?
Yes.
in
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q ~Prom the tine you first came to Englewood, Doctor, to the time you left, was there ever, to your / knowledge, any gerymandering of any district? A Not to my knowledge. Q As of the time the report was made, 1961, I believe it isis that the date of the report? ; MR. LESSON: February 28, 1962.
Q Prior thereto, a year or two prior thereto, you were familiar with the lines of the districts?
. REPRODUCE FROM TOE
OF mt WHNuaoupT
DIVISICN/ LIBRARY-
OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearns - Cross

A Yee.
Did you ever reooanend at any tine that the
districts were not fairly drawn, and, therefore, recommend any change in the lines? A I never reconoended that they were not fairly dVawn, Q A
10
but I did reeoBuend a change in lines. When was thiat I have forgotten the date, but it was at the time
(pJCX>iAui>
that Morrow School was becoming overcrowded and the Rooaevelt School was under-crowded. % What happened then, Doctor? Were your
11
12 13 14 15 16 17
recommendations carried out?

A Yes.
Doctor, in order to have a balance of the
races in the various schools, would not the Board of Education be required to constantly have a record of school children, Negro and white, so that they could iceep it up to date and keep some semblance of a reasonable relationship? A Under the plan* before, they would. Under th~e last Q Do you know of any authority which defines a two, they would not need to. school as all Negro with respect to the number of students? In other words, a hundred percent, of course, we can all agree is an all Negro school.
r is
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Dr. Stearns - Cross

1 A
Yes .
2 3
4
Do you know of any authority which designates
any school having a minority of white as against Negro children? Is there any formula or report or authority by which it la established at what point "it becomes an
s 6 7
8
*
ail Negro school? (There is an objection by Mr. Lebson.)
THE WITNESS i I don't know of any
9 10 11 12
13
authorities, no. Q Doctor, is this fair statement? And I don't
want you to think that it's necessarily from your book. it's Just what I have read soaewhere, I don't Kant to
14 is is
17
trap you, believe me. IB it a fair statement that an educator should take care of education regardless of race, creed or color? A Is that the end of your question?
Q Yes..
11 _ . . A _ _ Yes, that's a fair question. Q

20 A Yes.
it is a fair statement you mean?
21 22 23 24 25
An I correct in assuming. Doctor, that neither
you nor the consultants who worked Kith you actually cheeked with individual children or parents to ascertain the reason for not accomplishing the equal or the high education that we Mould hope they all would have?
* cot o, matm Dmslag,M , ^
Dr. Stearns * Cross

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 S
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 -17. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
I'ôrry, iM,e got to>Ve that question stated .'.":/.
again. It was long and I didMt .. ft Sure. .. ; : * " " . . : ' : - . .'
:(The
:.
Reporter repeated* the pending question.)' . - . - ; ' : : ;: .# THEirirESSj That's correct.
HR. ***!**
lleTe lt op not< although
I a sure 1 -issei a 0ouPie of hundred question. I should have asted^ I am through. (There is a discussion between counsel.)
[THE Hearing adjourned.]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
RE:
IN THE MATTER -Of-
: : :
. ^ TRAKSCRIPT OP PROCEEDINGS
ENOIWOOD SCHOOL HEARIHQS
April4, 1963 Hackensack, New Jersey
9 10 11 12
]3
PART 3
14 15 16
18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25
PAUL A. KELLY, C.S.R.
RICHARD YERZY, C.S.R. 19-01 Hlllery Street Fair Lawn, New Jersey
-for-
2
3
4
RE:
ZK THE HATTER OfTRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
ENOLEWOOC SCHOOL HEARINGS
5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
PART 3
16 _I7_
18 19
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.PAUL A. KELLY, C.S.R.
-forRICKARD YER2Y, C.S.R. 19-01 Hillary Street Fair Lawn, New Jersey
CROSS-EXAMINATION OP DR. HARRY L. STEARNS BY MR. LESSON:
Dr. Stearns, yesterday you testified about
various things in connection with your duties as Superintendent of Schools. I am now going to question you from an entirely different angle. You mentioned that you cane to Englewood as Superintendent in 1944? A Right. Q A Approximately? , _..
Right, exactly 19W. Q And you continued as Superintendent of Schools
there until 1962? A Right. Q When you first cane to Englewood, Englewood
had the sane number of school buildings that it has today, talking about elementary schools? In other words, Roosevelt was already built, except Quarles? ~~A That IB c"orrect~yes^ Q_ ~So^ Lincoin^ Liberty, Roosevelt, Cleveland
* . " -
were all built before you came there? A Yes, that is correct. Q A And in use?
That is correct. Q Quarles was built during your administration?
A.
Right.
Dr. Stearns - Cross
1
2 3 4 5
Q A
Dwlght HorroM High School was built during
your administration? Dwight Morrow High School was built before my Q A Yes. Q Now, then, Dr. Stearns, do you recall The new Junior high school was built during administration. your administration?
6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
particularly the circumstances that led to the discussion between you and members of the Board pertaining to a desire for some sort of a report in I960 or '61? A A A Do I remember the discussion? la that the question? Q Yes. (There is an object ionJby Mr. Breslln.) Q A Yes. Q Now, I ask you particularly, Dr. Stearns Do you remember the general circumstances? Yes, I do,
17:
~~
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and if this is not correct, you tell methat according to my understanding, on the 10th of April, 1961, the Board directed you to undertake a study in depth. Is that correct? -
Dr. Stearns - Cross If that is the date of the meeting, yes, that is correct. Q So, you have no reason to feel that it's . L- . ' ' -. * otherwise?
A NO.
How, prior to the 10th of April, 1961this
just didn't happen that way. You mentioned one of the other days that you,testified that it was the result of
10
some discussions that had taken place at the home of one ' : .'',.. ; . L,-J of the Board members, Or. Van Itallle? ;/ A That is correct. Q A Now, without being accurate at all, was this J_ ^
n
12 13 14 15 16 17 JM 119 I20 I21 [22
a matter/of a few months, a few weeks before that time? I would say approximately three months. Q
And what was the reason for the discussion?
What was the basis for the discussion which led up to the directive on the 10th of April, ' 1 6? _ A The_pending_completion of the.Junior high school
jind the question which had been asked of the Board, what they would do with the old Junior high school and the Franklin School. Q For the benefit of the record and those people . who may not be informed, we had on Engle Street two school buildings, did we not? A That is correct.
r I
24 Is
Dr. Stearna - Croaa
The one that you called the Franklin School
was used up to that time as a public school, wasn't it, an elementary achool? A Public elementary achool, and part of the time Q Adjoining it to the south was a building there had been Junior high school classes in it. which we now call 11 'Engle Street. That was the -old senior high school, was it not? A It's so named on the top, yes. Q And-after the Dwight Morrow High School had
been built on the JDwigbt Morrow campus, the students from the senior high school left this so called building on 11 Engle Street and moved over to the Dwight Morrow High School? A This was before my time, but this has been reported to me on the evidence, yes. Q A What was this 11 Engle Street, the old high school, used for from that point on? grades 7, 8, and 9 most of the time, Q During your adminiatration, toward the end of your adminiatration, ian't it a fact that the Junior high school at 11 Engle Street thereafter was moved to a new junior high school adjoining the Ewight Morrow High School In location?
During my time it housed the Junior high school,
Dr. Stearns - Cross Yes, students Mere moved. Q [A Generally, do you rememberwhat dates are we * ^talking about they moved over?
It's strange, but I think It was 1966, September. Q Now, then, let's assume that it opened up for
fall term of I960. May I Q . .

:
'"
"
' . T _-
I think it's '61.
I think it is 6l, yes, Q Let's assume that they moved over for the fall What was that building used for
era of September, 1961. ereafter?
MR. BRESLIN: THE WITNESS: Q
11 Engle Street? 11 Engle Street.
From that tine for as long as you Mere there.
The only use for which it Mas put was for Board of cation offices, a meeting place for the Board of cation, offices of the Saperlntendent7 siecretary, B., and for two educatlbie classes. * . Q
' ' '
In other words, two special classes?
TMO special classes, that is correct, yes. Q Dr. Stearns, you started to say that the basis
the discussion or the reason for the discussion at [Van It a Hie'e home about three months prior to April was about the future use of these two buildings,
Dr. Stearns - Cross

i 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 '25
was it not? A
Yes. That is correct.

' HT.
Now, what was the problem? Was it a problem
of population or of use of the buildings or what? Do you recall? study? A ' . ' " . - What Mas the purpose which led to the desire for a The purpose which led to the desire of a study,
that the previous studies which had been made had not accurately predicted the enrollment to that day, and it was the feeling of some of as that the conditions involving race and imbalance and movement of population in the town had thrown those predictions out and that a new study was madewas needed in depth* Q Is this a correct expression? If it isn't, you correct me. That you were asked to conduct a depth study of problems existing in the city which would affect the growth of student population and of the demands which the changing character of the city would mate upon the school system. A Yes, I will accept that. Q Now, then, were you formally at Dr. Van
Itallie's home told to go along with that thinking and get ready for it? A _ The consensus of opinion was that this need be
.Dr. Stearoa - Cross

i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
done, yes. Q I tell you that the records of the Board of
Education indicate that on April the Iptb, 1 6 , you 91 were directed to anderUke that study.
Yes.
Q Now, at that tine we are now talking of
April the 10th, 1961, At that tine had yet any agreement been Bade that you were to have any help, professional help, or was this supposed to be your study? A The understanding at the previous discussion was that I could not do it without the consultation of specialists in the field of sociology and the other ' related areas. Q Did you indicate that you thought that these
11"
12 13 14 15
views of experts along those lines were necessary -for this kind of a proper study? .
16 17
_Ji19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A Yes, because I ---------- Q--------you

Q
.
-------~
-
Now, then, particularly you thought that we
ought to have an expert inwhat two fields are we talking about now? A Particularly sociology, political science, Q Now, Doctor, sociology, without getting into
a long descriptive definition of it, brings forth what
jjj.Viaj.civ,
Uf
Dr, Stearns - Cross.
i
2 i 3 4 5 6 7
in a study? What is the necessity for a sociological report or view? , - ' ' - " . + A The sociologist is expert in the movement of people, the forces which bring about the movement of people. They deal with race problems/ they deal with problems of housing, income.
Q A That is what you had in mind? ' " Yes. '
s;
9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16
- . :.
'
, - -- .,
'
'
Q
A
Now, what other kind of an expert did you think
would be desirable for this kind of a report?

I felt >J . - ' . - '
Q A
A specialist on what?
I felt someone who was experienced in the planning

* -
of the New York Metropolitan Region. Q region? A-_Very_ definitely. ? Q . So that you were trying to get somebody whose Now, do you consider Englewood a part of that
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
views would be applicable to Englewood insofar as that point of view is concerned?
Yes.
Q And did you mention to the Board at that time
this is at or about April the 10ththat two experts of well known status would be the two that you used? Or whose names did you propose?
i
2 3 4 5
10 I do not recall whether names were mentioned at that
Dr. Stearns - Cross
meeting, but in discussion tbe name of Robert Wood was -% - .' mentioned, and I mentioned bin specially because I knew of his work in the metropolitan area. I also mentioned the name of Professor Lloyd^Warner. Q A Lloyd Warner? - (There is a comment made by Mr. Breslln...). (The Reporter repeated the last question Q A and answer.) Now, Dr. Stearns, what did you know of Robert As a sociologist.
e
7 8 S 10
11
12 13 14 15
S*6': 17
Wood of M.I.T. at that time? I had heard him speak atparticipate in a disCUBSion at Harvard at the Advanced Administrative Institute which I attended, I had read one of his books, and I felt that he was very familiar with Mew York Metropolitan data. ft A and Social Science at M.I.T.? A member of the staff of M.I.T. I would have said Q A Now, then, you said you had read something of political science, but I'm not positive about that. his or heard him speak. I didn't get what you said. Yes, both. I had heard him speak, I had talked with him, I had read one of his books. / Is he a member of the Department of Economics
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Dr. Stearns - Cross

11
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
in other words, the suggestion ofis it
Doctor? A Doctor. Q
A Yes.
**'
'
'
'
I mean Wood. The suggestion of Dr. Wood was yours?
Q A
Right. Q In other words, you were preparing a report
to th6 Board, weren't you? A A I was. Q Right. Q Dr. Wood was not recommended by any member . . ' ' . ' " ' . ..-
And this was your suggestion to the Board?
of the Board, was he? A Not to my knowledge. Q Now, then, the other Dr. Warner, where had
you heard of him or what had you known of him? i (ThercT is a oomment made by Mr, Breslin.) Q
* "
What had you known of him?

' " '
20 21 22 23 24 25.
I had heard him speak at one of the meetings, of
the American Association of School Educators on the effect of the race problem upon population, and I felt that he knew a great deal about this problem. Q So, Professor Warner or Dr. Warner was ~
recommended also by you?
r-3ftNUb(_KLfr-DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Dr. Stearns - Croea
i
2 3 4
Yes. Not "by any member of the Board?

No.
Q A Yea. Q A A Q
You recommended him to the Board?
5 6 7 8 3 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
__17.. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Dr. Warner was not used, was be? Any particular reason why he wasn't?
That ie correct. He replied to me that his health and the confinement The distance
of his duties would not permit him to do it. was a factor, and he Q A A Where was hex*010*
He was from Michigan. Q Q Now, did you have an alternate for him? Did you finally get one? I did not, at the time.
A--------Yes.r In-discusslon with Dr. Wood that summer when I again was attending the Harvard Institute, I told him
* "
of my problem with Dr. Warner and at this point he-(There is an objection by Mr. Breslln.) Q A Yes. Q
' :
You can't tell us what he said. But as a
result of discussions you had with Dr. ood
was the name of Gutman suggested to you?

" 1
Yes, by Dr. Wood.
Dr. Steams - Cross

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [ 9 10 11 12 13 14 15" 16 17 18 19" 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q
A
No.
Had you ever seen him? Ever heard him? You knew nothing about him? He was not recommended by any member of the
Q
A
No.
Q A Q Board? A
That is right.
That is right. Q But jpu recommended him to the Board? . At that point there had been no public inquiry
That is right. Q
from anybody about choice of specialists or experts, had there? A That is correct. Q So, we are now around April of ' 1 and you 6,
recommended Dr. Wood and Dr. Gutman. By the way, autman is connected with what institution? A Rutgers University. Q A As what, professor of what?
Professor of Sociology. Q He still is, isn't he?
Yes. Q The Board accepted your two choices, didn't
they, on your recommendation?
Dr. Steams Croaa

1 A1 Yes, ' .
14
2 3 4
s
Now, Doctor, let's hold that for a minute.
You were Superintendent of Sebools a%the time of the Walker ease before the Commissioner in 1955?
A
I Mas.
Q 7 8 9 : 10 n 12 13 U 151 is 17
And you have read the opinion in the Walker
case, of course, haven't you? A Yes. Q ' -' .. '.'.' Doctor, do you remember receiving or Seeing
a letter that came to the Board from the Commissioner dated the 28th of June, 1955, talking about compliance with the decision in the Walker case? Would you like to see the letter? A I Mould, to identify Q it. -'' '
Doctor, I show you a copy of a letter dated
June 30, 1955, from the office of the Commissioner to Mrs. Winifred R. Schambara, Secretary of the Englevood Board of Education > and ask you if you have ever seen
19 20
that_letter before or, rather, the original of which

.* . '
that is a copy?
21 22
231 a
25 1
Yes.
.
". / . MR. ZEBSON: Any objection If I read this

' . - . . . - . MR. BRESLIN: May.I see it?
into t h e record?
MH. IBBSON:
If your Honor please, I'd -
Dr. Stearna - Cross like to read in the record a letter, State of Mew Jersey, Department of Education, Trenton 8,
. ''*%.: ' .
June the 30th, 1955, Office of the Commissioner, 175 Vest State Street. Mrs. Winifred R. Schanbara, Secretary, Board of Education, Englewood, New Jersey, "Dear Mrs. Schanbara: I have reviewed the proposed boundary lines submitted by your Board of Education in compliance with
10
the decision of the Commissioner of Education on May the 19th, 1955, in the case of Walker and Anderson versus the Board of Education of the City of Englewood, and I find that these boundary lines substantially comply with the decision. Nay I express to the Englewood Board of Education appreciation for its conscientious effort-and promptness in _ carrying out this requirement of the decision. "Very sincerely yours," signed "P. M. Raubinger, Commissioner of Education." I offerwell, I can't offer it. I ask that it be marked for identification in behalf of the defendant. (Letter dated June 30, 1955, is received and marked Exhibit R-2, for identification.)
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j. UJ.VJ.l3j.UN, T.TRRAPY OF CONGRESS
Dr, Steams - Cross

16
Q A Yes.
So, you recall that letter of compliance? Dr. Stearns, I show you a copy of a letter
dated February the 1st, 1957, from Commissioner Raubinger to the Board of Education, which I first exhibit to counsel. MR. TATE: What is the date? MR. H2BSON: February 1st, 57. Q Doctor, will you look at this letter and tell me whether you remember that it was received at approximately that date from the Commissioner to our Board of Education?
A Yes.
MR. LEBSON: If your Honor please, I ask that it be read into the record as an exhibit of the defendant, which will be marked for Identification, letter dated February the 1st, 1957, from the State of New Jersey, Department of Education, 175 Vest State Street. I believe it's Trenton 8, New Jersey, Board of Education, Mrs. Winifred R, Schambara, Secretary, Englewood, New Jersey. "Gentlemen: I have received authenticated information that the Englewood Board of Education has complied with the orders of
"s
Dr. Stearin - Cross

17
the Commissioner of Education in the decision of theCownlssioner of Education datejd Nay the 19th, 1955, in the case of Mary Walker and Susan Anderson versus the Board of Education of the City of Englewood. "Accordingly, the Commissioner hereby declares the above case to be closed. "Yours very truly, P. M. Raublnger, Conmlssloner of Education."
10 in
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I aslc that be.marked for -identification for the defendant. (Letter dated February 1, 1957, Is received/and marked Exhibit R-3 for identification.) Q . In other words, Dr. Stearns, I an taking you
IX US. lit
chronologically down to these dates. Hay, 1955, the decision was rendered by the Commissioner. R-2 for ideBtlflcation is a letter of June 30, '55, from the Commissioner saying that the boundary lines he suggested Mere In line with the decision and he approved them, and R-3 for identification, February 1, 1957, the Commissioner closed the ease completely. Yon recall those?
A Yes.
Now, then, Doctor, we are up to February the 1st
19571 You attended practically every meeting of the rd of Education from that tine on?
Yes. i ' -. . ' %
ii i .
Dr. Stearns - Cross

IB
Do you recall whether anybody ever came to a
sting of the Board of Education from 1955 or particularly the 1st of February, 1957, down to June of 1961, nplaining about any racial Imbalance in the public ' ebobls of the City of Englewood? / / j '''.'' i ' Did anybody cone to any meeting, to your meeting nd complain? It's a long time to remember, but no, I do not sr any such ease. Q !' '
j j
So, in other words, you do not rememberbnt
do not recall anyone? That is right. Q So, then, I am assuming therefore, in anticipa-
too of the next qnestion, that having gone through '57 are^ncwinto-'6l- and not a person has come to Englewood plaining at any Board meeting about racial Imbalance? MR. KUHSTIER: I think he testified that be didn't recall any. (There is an objection by Mr. Breslin.) Q So, your recollection is they did not?
I do not recall it. Q Now, then, Doctor, I am going back whe're I left
Dr. Stearns - Cross

10.
prou off before. Do you recall the meeting in June of 1961 en Mrs. John Spruill came to the meeting of the Board of ducation?
Yes, I do.
'
;^
Now, then, in other words, this was a couple of
tns after, the Board had directed you to start this tudy in depth? That is right.
MM. Spruill read a statement which everybody
DONS now as the Spruill statement?
Now, then, is it a fact that this was about the
t meeting before adjournment, as Mr. Perry described it? About the last meeting. mutes would show us, Q Now, then, Dr. Stearns, there are normally no I don't recall the dates,
ficiai meetings of the Board of Education after June til-September., _aL there? That baa been the practice in Englewood, yes. Q Ys. Q Now, do you recall that arrangements were made And that wad the practice at that time?
a special meeting of the Board on the 5th of September, 6l, to give consideration to Mrs. Spruill'B inquiry? It was a meeting about that time. The specific date
. REPRODUCED FROM 1HE COLLBCTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION", LIBRARY OF CCt
Or. Stearns - Cross

20
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I do not recall. Q
"
Do you remember, as best you canI will
withdraw the question.'* m other words, this wasn't a regular meeting of the Board? This was called specially for that purpose,
wasn't it?
A That is right. Q ...
Now, do you recall, without giving me names of
people, whom did we encompass in the invitation to attend? I mean generally. A I know Mrs. Spruill was invited. Q I believe the Urban League was invited. I an not sure about others.
In other Words, was It the intention or wasn't
it, if you can tell me, to bring people who were interested in the problem that she was presenting to the Board to discuss it out loud? (There is an objection by Mr. Breslin.)
" / '
v
' -if ' ,
(There is an objection by Miss Morris.)

19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A meeting was held, was it not, on the 5th
where this problem was discussed? A Right. (There is a discussion between counsel.) Q You started to say before that there were various people there. You mentioned, I think, the Urban League people? .
-lilt; COtLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF
Or, Stearns - Cross
ai
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I know the Urban League was there, represented. Q
Were there representatives of the NAACP from % New York and Englewood?
A Yes.
Do 700 remember whether all of the principals
of all of the schools of the City of Englewood were there or weren't they there? A I recall the principals were invited. I am not sure that they were all there. The records should show it. Q
A Yes.
Mrs. Spruill, and her husband, of course,
were there? Q Subsequent to that meetingI will withdraw.
the question. Do you remember whether there was anything that came out of that discussion which led to an inquiry
- . _ * ' : '
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19 20 21 22 23 24 25
on the part of any of the participants about .a desire to include a third specialist? Was that the meeting? A I believe that was the meeting when the suggestion Wi8 made. Q A If you know, say so. If you don't, say you don't. Do you recall specifically who made this request? I think It was a Mr. Banks from the National Office ~ - of the NAACP.
Or. Stearns - Cross

gg
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Q A
.
Mr. Calvin Banks?
I do not know his first name. I am not particularly

. ' % ' - ; ' ' -
clear tbat that is the name. Q A What was the request? what did he want? What did he suggest? Veil, it had been announced to then that this depth study was being made to deal with the problem which they were interested in. Q A What did he want? What did Banks want? He asked to have a consultant nominated by the
KAACP, selected by the Board, to Join in the study. Q I think I an a little ahead of myself.
There is something I have forgotten. When Mrs. Spruill made her request or made her inquiry or made her statement, I guess is a better word, at the Board meeting, do you recall the then President of the Board saying that on the basis of that inquiry we would include that, too, in the depth study?
Yes. Q Now, then, it was at this meeting, you think,
on the 5th of September that Mr. Banks, representing the New York office of the NAACP A I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Lebson. The way you stated that, it would be included. I believe the
- c
Dr. Stearns - Cross

i
2 3 4 5 6
'7
President of the Board said that it was a part of the study already. MR. IEBSON;* What did I say, Mr. Reporter? (The Reporter repeated the pending question.) Q
w
asked if we Mould be willing to accept a
'/
suggestion from them as to a third party? . " ' / ' / (There is an objection by Mr. Breslln.) Q-7 , Will you answer the question? Was this the meeting when the request was made that they could suggest somebody? A A Yes. No.. Q
a 10 n
12 13
14 IS 16 17 J8^
- V
Q
Were any names mentioned at this meeting? / ; . ' ' ' : In your own words, what is your recollection
as to how it was really handed to us? What did he say, "May we suggest somebody, may we nominate somebody, may -we-bring somebody;-or-~ A I do not recall. The statement I made (There is an objection by Mr. Breslln.) (There is a discussion between counsel.) ' . ' / ' / '(The Reporter repeated the pending question.) '
' '[
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
_.
THE WITNESS: YOu askefd in my own words.

The word "nominate" is my word. I do not know
Dr. Stearns - Cross
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
that he used that. Q Mas there? A I do not recall. Q Now, let's put it this May: As a result of an Now, no agreement Mas entered at that meeting, *,
Inquiry being made by Mr. Banks or Spruill, or whoever it Mas, Mas there a third consultant finally selected? A State that question again. Q As a result of Mrs. Spruill's inquiry or Mr.
Banks' or somebody representing this group at this September 5th meeting, Mas a third consultant suggested?
Yes. Q
.
Did the Board of Education tell you that they
Mould be Milling to accept a third consultant? A As I recall, they told me to find -out the names
that Mere nominated. Q As I understand from your testimony yesterday,
you Mere Matting for a name from that group?
Yes. Q Now, do I also understand that ycuwent to New .
York to get the names? A I did. A period of time had elapsed. Then I had
to go to New York to.get it. Q What do you mean, a period of time? In other
words, there was delay?
ilit; COIiECTICNS OF TOE MANDSCRIPT VIVISICK~lJBMKt
OF CONGRESS
Dr. Steams - Cross
25
i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18-19 20 21 22 23 24 25
It did not cone in the next day. We were anxious Q So, you went to New York, and you mentioned
to get under way with the study. Miss Shagalog? A A Miss June Shagalog. . : '.-- - ' . . ; Q Recomnended whom? .;'. " . *
She recojnsended Professor Clark of City College of Q la that Nelson Clarlrt ' . Kenneth Clark, rather?
New York. A 1 have forgotten. Q A
Kenneth Clark, yes. Kenneth Clark and Professor
Dan Dodson of New York University. Q Did you bring those names or either name back
to the Board? A I brought both names back to the Board. Q Mow, with the knowledge that this Dr. Dodson .. . . . - _ . ' ..'.# was selected, what happened to Dr. Clarlc? MISS MORRIS: Excuse me. Can I have that read back? (The Reporter repeated the pending question.) Q in other words, yon know that Dr. Dodson was selected. What happened to the other name? A It was dropped from consideration.
Dr. Stearns - Cross

26
l 2 3 4 S
.Now, did you then recommend to the Board that
we add Dr. Dodson ' as the third consultant? A
',
I believe I did, yes. Q
*% How, once again, Dr. Stearns, no member of the
Board had recommended Dr. Dodson? A That is correct. Q A It was recoonended by you to the Board? ~
B
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
That Is correct.
(There Is a comment made by Mr. Breslln.) Q. A Do you remember the approximate date?
I do not know the date. The records would have to
show that. (There Is a discussion between counsel.) Q This meeting was.September the 5th. You felt/
that there was somebody who was dragging their feet, not giving you names. You went to New York, you came back, reported to the Board. _ As against September tfie 5th, approximately when ' did you say that Dodson was finally approved by the Board? A Well, I would say that the Board had agreed in
discussion on it, so that we were in communication with Dr. Dodson relatively early in October. Q Now, that is your best recollection. So,
then, he was selected?
II
Dr. Stearna - Cross 27

A YeB.
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Q A Yea*
At your recommendation?
Now, then, Dr. Stearna, we are new In October
; ..
-*
or November. Did you then atart your activities in regards to the gathering of data and doing work: on this depth study? A Well, the work had started,prior to that. Q
A Yes.
a 10 11
12 || 13 14 15 16 17
18
But then these men started to work?

'
-y '
'
'
-,";'
ft
Do you recall offhand approximately/when the
Board of Education relieved you of your active duties as Superintendent in order to get at this Job? A. Well, this was in the spring. In discussion it
was advised that I should do this. The work; tapered off. Q A ~A Q
Are you saying the spring of '61? Right.
The spring of '61. I cannot put the exact date when a proportionate
20T 21 22 23 24 25
amount of the administrative work left my desk to Mr. Holiday's desk. It was a matter of shifting-. Q in other words, the Board cooperated with you to turn over general administrative work to your assistant, to the Assistant Superintendent, Mr. Holiday,
Dr. Stearns - Cross

i 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 '9
Dr. Holiday?
A A Yes.
ft
Yes.
In order that you could get oji with this job? Now, then, what was the purposewhat was to
be done with this depth study when you and the experts finished with It? A It was to be rendered to the Board of Education. Q So that in order that we do not quibble on
10 11 12
13
language, this is definitely a report to the Board of Education, isn't it? A That's the way I understood it. Q Now, then, this report was promised in February
14
IS
of 1962, wasn't it? A A There was a great debate about the date. Q ~ It was promised around February, wasn't it?
16 17
18
As I recall the meeting in September, the question
was aslced when this report would be done and I replied that i would hope it could be done in February. Q " Themistake was that we didn't say some tine in February because everybody assnmed it was the 1st of February. A Probably the mistake was that we gave a date. (There is an objection by Kr. Breslln.) Q It was prepared, finished, printed, delivered
19 20
21
22 23 24 25
Dr. Stearns - Cross
..
1
2 3 4
> .
in February as pronised, .Is that right? A Yes.

;
Q On the 28th of February; 1962? -.. ' . " . ' ' -. V*P Yes.
"
r. -5 -,-: e
7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14
Q Now, Dr. Stearns, this report was widely distributed, wasn't it, eventually? A I guess that would be the-Q (There is a comment made "by Mr. Breslin.) All over, wasn't it?
Yes.
Q
Now, Dr. Steams, this report has a statement
in the beginning.part which you call a letter of transmlttal, which I assume you meant to be read primarily by the Board but.was read by everybody?
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Yes.
Q
'.
Do you recall that part at the bottom of page
17 where you say that there has been apparent general agreement on the main elements of the report with the understanding that I take responsibility for errors of omission and'commission and for the direction of the final typing and assembly for presentation?
Yes.
Q
:'
. .
.:
That is your language?
A Yes, and it was very carefully discussed with ail threeall four.
Dr. Stearns - Grose

l
2 3 4
That is your language? It IB true, isn't It? *
A A
YeB.
Q
I'l
Yes. Q Doctor, in one part of this letter of
t
7
transmittal, particularly paragraph three, you said, did you not, "It IB hoped that all sections of *the report will be useful to the Board and the people of the city as aids in formation of public policy"?
JO I"
Is.that your language? A That is right, yes. Q Was that your intention?
r
113
Yes.
Q So, in other words, you confirmed the fact that
this was a report to the Board as an aid?
Yes.
Q Now, Doctor, stripping thisnot stripping, but îng^various^plarts of it,-there has been general
testimony by you and by others where the words have

- ' * ' - '-
been used that the report winds up with six recommendations . Have you heard that expression? A I have heard the expression. Q Now, were those six to be, recommendations?
"A
NO. .
Q
', '; ' ' . . . ' " '
What were the six to be? ' '
.nu^ i-j.iujv_rva_ira. uj.vj.OJ.l-w, .UJ-tlKftKj: Uf
Dr. Stearns - Cross

31
A '
Ve analyzed 0tx proposals that had been suggested. MR. BRESLIN: May I have that question
aqd answer again? . . f^
(The Reporter repeated the last question and answer.} d Now, Dr. Stearns, were you with us when Sprulll
filed her petition of appeal which we are now conducting
A
A
Ho.
Q
No.
'". '
on September the 7th, '62?
~
' '
In the petition of appeal the language used by
Sprulll in paragraph eightparagraph seven, the last paragraph, says, in substanceI am talcing it out of eontext--the study was undertaken and the findings, conclusions and recommendations were submitted to the Board of Education on February the 28th, 1962. Six specifIc ; alternate recommendations were made. Did you ever see that language before?
A NO.
Q report?
Did you make such recommendation* in your
I did not.
Q isn't it a fact that recommendationor that
item number one of the descriptive wording of recommendations, as used in the Spruill petition, is to do nothing
Dr. Stearns - Cross

_32_
isn't it? A
|A
That is the
Q
: Pardon me? / ' ' -%
That is the topic which we .discussed, yes. Q ID other words, if we use the six items that
usedI forget ray Latin, aseriatun MR. BHESLIN: How do you spell that? Q
J
(Continuing.)
against the so called six

_/
ecoonendations that are used in this petition, in jrther words, one for one, the first proposal, as you Bll.lt, recommendation, as they .call it, was to do ,' ' ' , - ' thing? That la right. Q
No.
Did you recommend that to the Board?

,
The second item which you called a proposal
which they called a recommendation, was renewal higher horizons without distribution of school
. . . . . .
7~Ts ^that correct? *
Page 133, number two.
Would you state the question again, please? (The Reporter repeated the pending question.)
THE W1THESS: Yes.
Dr. Stearns, in order that we knew what we are about, the words "racial imbalance" have been
Dr. Stearns - Cross

_33_
lo these proceedings. Is It a true definition, from your experiences as iducator, that the definition of the words "racial * llance" merely means more of one racial group than Icther? I prefer to rely on the definition that I attempted ive earlier In the testimony. Q What would that be? I'd like to have it read to be sure. You are atelyQ ; M 1th my definition? State it again. ;Q I said, is it a fact that the words "racial in a given area or at a given place of one racial than the other that makes it an imbalance? IB that deflnitionf-----
I can't go back to it. Is there anything
ance"--the true definition is that there are more
_...__.
thint rused the.term "when there was undue tion." Now, coning back to mine again, do you accept rioltlon as being correct? Hot completely in the tern that we are talking about. Dr. Stearns, you are not going to say, are at what point, taking two different groups of
Dr. Stearns - Cross pie Nlth different racial backgrounds, at what point 1 an imbalance, are -you? No. Q ' ' . % So, if you are not going to say fractionally the use of figures, isn't it a factisn't it that where you have any kind of a group of people of one race than the other, there is an imbalance? Yet, in your May of reasoning, Q In other words, if we take this table here, if more Negro lawyers here than white lawyers, you an imbalance, don't you? (There Is a discussion between counsel.) Q If .we have more white lawyers here than Negro fen, there Is an imbalance? [You are getting into semantics of the term |UDce," which opens a (There is an objection by Mr. Breslin.) Dr. Stearns, this is Important to me because tlB one of the elements of the case. So, you will
ho answer it.
' * - -
Just want to know whether you are going to make inetion at any point where the definition of iQce" reaches something that is wrong, or isn't that when there is any group, more of one than ,sthere is an imbalance? It's almost a scale
Dr. Stearns - Cross

35
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
item, isn't it? A Q fiefinltlone
' . . . - . . ire very important in this ease
This vould be true, yes, the way you term it.
here because it's the crux of the case. When you talk of higher horizons, what la your
'- ' ; , . / ' , " " % '' -
definition of "higher horizons"? A Q
Agate, I gave that definition in the testimony. Frankly, I want to correct it. That la why MR. BRESLIN: You hope to correct it. MR. IEBSON: I hope to correct it. Q What is your definition, your best judgment
I want to find out what it is. You gave one yesterday.
as to what the words "higher horizons" means, because it's been used at various points? A IS it permissible to go back to the definition Q Just what would you say it is, approximately! which I made yesterday and say this la It. Maybe r can help you. Yesterday you said higher horizons is a program carried on to increase the incentive of any Negro child to learn. Now, that's as I wrote it, and I nay have missed a word or two. Is that correct? A Yes. I prefaced this with saying that it was ~ related to the plan which was in operation in New York City.
Dr. Steams - Cross

l
2 3 4 5
6
Now, Doctor, I am directing your attention
particularly to the word "Negro." Higher horizons. Is a program carried on to increase the incentive of any child to learn, isn't It? A Not in the specific term in which it is used in Q A Yes. Q And when we are talking about higher horizons, Now, let's talk about it as we are using it New York City.
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 2' 0 21 22 23 24 25
specifically in the term for Englewood in your report.
you are not recommending to the Board that we use higher horizons only for Negro children in the City of Englewood, are you? A . Specifically directed toward the Negro problem, yes. Q Toward the problem, but isn't it also to give (There Is an objection by Mr. Huntsler.) ^ Q _ (There is a discussion between counsel.) I want to know particularly, Dr. Stearns?-if
white children some benefits of higher horizons?
the way I framed it is wrong, I will reframe it and say to you this: That when we are talking about higher horizons in this book, this report at any point, aren't we talking about the desire on the part of the authors of this report as a message to the Board of Education, "If you will think of item number two in our proposals,
' UIVISIQN, LIBRARY .OF CQNGRE5
Dr. Stearns - Cross 37
1 2
3
ve would like you to give consideration to a plan of higher horizons which will increase the Inceptive to the children of the City offEnglewood"? Was that the idea for proposal two, or was it only to create some higher horizon benefits only for Negro
: . -' . #>
4 5
6 7
children? I want to clear that up because yesterday it left a void, in my opinion. A It's difficult to answer your question yes or no, because.the context of the report was directed toward the solution of the Negro problem. The tern "higher horizons" in Hew York and other
:
8
.9
10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 Ji 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
places where it is used is generally applied to that. We are not depriving other children of the benefits of anything that may cone from It, and the report specificall; refers to the type of thing used in New York. Q Now, Dr. Stearns, I want to clear this up so that there .is no misunderstanding, and I an only quoting "' : -..'* fronuyou.._ _ .
On page 115 of the report you say heredid I say 115? under the heading "Policy of Neighborhood Renewal
Plus Higher Horizons,""By'higher horizons' we mean a program similar to New York City's efforts to work through school and social service agencies to improve the incentive of Negro and white children from underprivileged families and environment to the end that
Dr. Stearns - Cross

i
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 . 20 21 22 23 24 25
they nay perform in school and achieve according to their potential." A All right, this is it. I w^ll accept that. Q So, in other words, Dr. Stearnsyou see, my
position is different than other people. I an representing all the children of the City of Englewood. *
I am trying to find out, weren't you people giving us a message in saying here number one, the people would like you to drift and do nothing, we are not recommending tbatj number two, we are recommending higher horizons? I want to know what you meant by what you say. (There is an objection by Mr. Breslin.) . (There is a discussion between counsel.) Q Now, didjou ask the Board of Education"ta accept .
this second proposal?

A No.
So, now we've got two out of the way. Proposal
number thre% you call it "Open Enrollment." This was* as you called it, a proposal, and as the Sprulll petitioners called it, a recommendation. (There is a comment made by Mr. Kunstler.) (There is a comment made by Mr. Breslin.) (There is a comment made by Mr. Ibon.) Q Did you recommend open enrollment to the Board of Education?
- DIVISION, LIBRARY CF CCNGRESS
Dr. Stearns - Cross

1
2
NO.
We've got three out of the way. Now, number
3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 -11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19-11
four. Number four, what you call a proposal and what the Spruill petition calls a recommendation, la the socalled Princeton Plan Which you described yesterday. Did you recommend to the Board of Education that we adopt the Princeton Flan? _
No. Q The fourth one out of the way.
Now, Dr. Stearns, your report now talks about proposal number five, their recommendation number five. Will you look at page 134 of your report?
Yes. Q *t called for the abandonment of Lincoln School
and the replacement of its classrooms by additions to other schools. Did you recommend that to the Board?
A No. . ~ - - Q- Five out of the way. We are not talking about-A Excuse me. May I interrupt Just a moment?
* ' . . '
20 21 22 23 24 25
No. The sixth proposal, which the Spruill
petition calls the sixth recommendation (There is a comment made by Mr. Kunstler.) (There is a discussion between counsel.) Q You mentioned the extensive renewal and use of
Lincoln School as a renamed central intermediate school
Dr. 5tarn0 - Cross

40
1
in an attractive renewed area. Then it goes on with additional language, which you have before you. Did yon recommend proposal number six to the Board of Education? A No, not in the term of your use of the word "recommend Q So, in other words, Dr. Stearns, taking them
v
2 4 5
e
7 8 9 10
one by one, none of these sis proposals were recommended by you as such to the Board of Education?' The answer is "Yes"? A That's right. Q A Yes. , Q A Now, Dr. Stearns, as you say, this report was . And elsewhere?
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
w.idely read by people in the community, was it not?
I believe so. Q - Dr. Stearns, while you were still with us,
did the Board of Education make any reeommendation to the people of the City of Bnglewood for any change in the use of the schools other than what had been the practice^ from 1957 on? A During the time I was with you? Q A Q school"? Yes. Particular^referring to the words "demonstration
"IT
20-11 21 22 23 2< 25
Yes, they did.
Dr. Steams.- Cross

1
2 3 4 5 B 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Yes.
Was a demonstration school, as the word has
been used, recommended during the time you Mere there? A Yes. MR. BRESLIN: Nay Me have an approximate date?
MR. IEBSON: Yes.
Drv Stearns, when Mould you say the . ,
demonstration school Mas recommended by you, approximately?' A

J
Ît Mas not recommended by me; it Mas recommended by ~J
thk Board. Q A
' Recommended by the Board Mhile you were there?
Yes. Well, it was some time within the period of
the last week of April and the first Meek of May. I do not recall the exact date. Q ... So, in other Words, Mhile litigation was going on in the Federal Courts and while petitions wereI will withdraw the question. While your group was studying or had studied this problem and were preparing or had prepared this report, the demonstration school had been suggested by the Board? A State that again. Q I say, while the reportI will withdraw it. Was.the demonstration school idea recommended after
Dr. Stearns - Cross the report Mas approved or while you were still working
on .it?
A The report was not approved* It was recommended
. .:: . ' *
after the report was completed and given to the Board, Q 6

7 8 9
So, now the report has been completed,
February 28, ' 2 You say the Board offered a 6. demonstration school?
Yes.
ti Were you consulted about it or did you talk
10
11 12
with the Board about it? A One of the members of the Board consulted with me
about it. Q In other words, you were in on the discussions
13
14
of the demonstration school?
15 16 17
18 19
Yes,
Q Will you please explain for the record, what
was the demonstration school? A I do not recall all of the exact features, but it
was offering enrollment in the facilities at 11 Engle Street to parents of children who wished to participate in an integrated School to demonstrate certain methods by which the improvement of instruction could be demonstrated in an integratedso called integrated situation. Q In this proposed plan of the demonstration
20 21 22 23 24 25
school, could chi&en come from any School, elementary
Dr. Stearns - Cross
school in town to attend? A Yes. I believe there was a grade limitation, but (There is a comment by Mr. Breslin. THE WITNESS: As to what grade they could enroll at, I have forgotten the details. Q
3 10
I have forgotten what it was.
It wasn't offered only to the children of .
Lincoln School, was it? A .A That is correct. Q It was offered to anybody in the community? That is correct. Q A
A
And these childrenin what grade level? Do It was not ny
you rennber? I could not recall. Q

Yes.
It was in the elementary grade school level? (Continuing.) could come to 11 Engie Street
at a school that was being proposed which would be an integrated school from the whole town?
A
Yes.
THE COMMISSIONER: I think we are due for a recess.

(The hearing recessed.) BY MR. IEBSON:
Or. Stearns, I an reading from a Board of
Dr. Stearns - Cross

44
(location document which has the initials on the lower left-hand corner W.R.S., 6/4/62, which, as you know, sot Winifred R. Schambara, our secretary. I suppose that's the date she typed it. .1 an doing this for ference. MOM, this is called a proposal for racially balanced onstration classes. Were you still with us on the 4th of June, '62? I was still the Superintendent, yes. Q Now, this says in effect that the Board of
location proposals that a pilot project of denonstration tlaues be established at 11 Engle Street in September of |62 as a step toward solution of racial imbalance in the Ity's elementary schools, and after mentioning its purpose th essential prerequisites and the chief characteristi the project and the implementationno, strike that, and the implementation.11 "It'lSenttoBS-thiB:-"Analysis _of the returns of the Btcard-survey by the Board will determine whether there
-* . . . .
sufficient interest on the part of parents in enrolling lildren in the demonstration school to warrant further ps to implement the plan, and that these steps would as follows: l. Applications for enrollment would be jiken following a meeting called immediately by the Board Education for the purpose of describing this, proposal
Br. Steams - Croat in greater detail to parents who answer "Yes" to question 2 on the enclosed return post card. 2. A list defining the order of acceptance foi| glasses in the school would be established at a public | draw ing in which names of all applicants are drawn and |the order of acceptance for respective grades, as set in the order drawn. From these lists class lists all be compiled for each of the respective grades 1 6. 3. Class lists for each grade shall be made up the order established by the drawing, with the eeptlpn the priority list be of such nature that a oportion of the Negro to white of more than 35 percent less than 35 percent results in any class, names all be passed over until such proportion is established. 4. Classes for each grade shall be organized with an ollnent of no more than 25 nor less than 20 students. -event morj9_than^ five applicants are left over af te maximuB of 25 has been reached, this number may be Deeded, provided 11! does not distort racial imbalance.) 5. Should there be an insufficient number of jplicants to establish any class under the conditions forth in the preceding paragraph, ungraded classes bin the established proportions may be set up for Dial experimentation with the ungraded class plan.
i .
Dr. Stearns - Cross there be an insufficient number of applicants to up any classes, graded or ungraded, with an optimum* felon of Negro and white students, then it may be Bd that the proposal is not acceptable to the unity and the plan should be abandoned." And the concluding statement mentions this one ence, I think, or two sentences: ''Obviously a iHbich proposes such far reaching changes as this cannot be fully Implemented immediately., (tended period of time is required for detailed in design, staff orientation and involvement, adjustment and interpretations to parents in BUDity at large. first year will prove to be largely a period ilailation and gradual progressive institution of us features and elements*" etor, you remember, generally, this proposed plan? M, ' ' ' . Now, did you, as Superintendent of Schools,
* '
'.'
'
at it bad merit? felt that it had merit as a start toward something, IB implied in the statement, yes. Did you recommend this to the Board? I did not. |, Now, then, this proposal was not accepted by
Dr. Steams - Cross

i
2 3
.4
the community, Mas it? A I do not know. This was at the point where I Mas *n leaving the school system. I Mas busy with commencement.
The records Mere kept by the Board, and they made the announcement. Q A .
S 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
"
Now, then, of course, you know that no
demonstration school has been put into effect? I know of'that fact, yes. Q
it?
But you do know that the Board had recommended
Yes.
Q A
And by the time you left it had not been,put
into effect for reasons which you do not knew? That's right. Q Now, Dr. Stearns, you have heard the words
"central intermediate school," haven't you? A .- Yes. Q ' ; - - .#
What is your definition of "central intermediate
19
20 21 22 23 24 25
school" as it has been applied to Englewood's thinking? (There 10 an objection by Mr. Breslln.) (There is a discussion between counsel.) . (The Reporter repeated the pending question.) THE WITNESS: I had nothing to do with the term "central intermediate school."
Dr. Stearns - Cross
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15
16
I Mill withdraw it.
Dr. Stearns, you do^know, generally, that a central intermediate school Mas proposed by the Board of Education and not put into effect? A I have heard that, yes. Q *
:;
Did you participate in any of its planning or
make any recommendations to the Board of Education that a central intermediate school, as you knew it, should be offered to the Board of Education? A I had nothing to do with the proposal that Mas made Q Had you heard discussions generally among the by the Board.
Board members about the general thinking of such a possibility without crystallizing all of its details? A I Mas present with two Board members at a visit to some Harvardwith some Harvard professors when the optional demonstration school Mas discussed. Q That is what I am talking about,
17
18 '19
A
A
Yes.
Q Yes.
.
You Mere present, weren't you?
20
21 22 23
Q A A Q
This was up at Harvard? And this Mas Mith Professor Anderson, Mas it?
That Is right. That- is correct.
24 25
Dr. Stearns - Cross Q

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 ~f8~ 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
t
Now, who was there, IT you remember? if you
don't. Just say you don't. A
~% Dr. Van Itallle and Mr. Hints went in my ear.

(There is a cement nade by Mr. BrafcLn.) Q Mr. Bresiin wants to know if you have any idea
I believe that Mrs. Orabow and Mr. Perry were there.
of approximately when this was that you people went up to Harvard. A The date could be established.by the records, but I think it was around the middle of May.
Q A '62.
Q
Of '62?
But, Dr. Stearns, isn't it true:that the purpose
of going to Harvard to discuss this proposal or thinking with Dr. Anderson was.. in regards to the demonstration school? A Primarily, yes. Q A I don't want to confuse you. '?.. It wasn't in
regards to the central intermediate school. That's what I wanted clarified. Q So, they went up there, various Board members
and you, to talk over its possibilities and its virtues?
Yes. Q . So, then, that would have been prior to the
4th of June, '62, when this proposal for this demonstration
Dr. Stearns - Cross

50
l
2 3 4 S 6 7
8 9 10 11
school was released, which I read before. A That is correct. Q Now, so tht we do not leave you up in the air,
you left actually when in the City of Englewood as Superintendent? Not when your tern expired, but when did you actually leave the city to do these A
77 - , / .'
I started my vacation on the 1st of July, which
was a terminal vacation. . , /'/-' J ' ' ' / , ft So, now,' this was the 4th of June. You finished actually the 1st of July? A That is right. ft . .'.'/ ' '
12 13
14
Dr. Stearns, I.Just want to olarify some'thing ' // which I think is>>really Important. When I,mention this proposal which was released by the Board of Education on June the 4th, there had been other discussions and reports and talks about this demonstration school prior to that tine? In other words, a letter went out to the
A Yes.'.."' . , - ' . .
15 16 17 _.!*_ 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Q A
citizens on the 1st of June, didn't it?
I have forgotten the date, but prior to June 4th
there had been other discussions. Q You did not compile the interest of the people ,
insofar as
'A
'NO.
'
--
' .
" .-.. ':X
Dr. Stearns - Cross
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
its response to this was-concerned? ft Now, Dr. Stearns, from' the time that you were
A
.
No.
connected with us right up until July of '62, assuming, as we must, that this was received by us practically March 1st, I shouldn't use the word, but February 28th, March, April, May, June, those four months,the Board never took any official action with regards to this report during that period of time, did it? A Not to my knowledge. ft And, to your knowledge, the Board never took
any official action on this report at any time, to your knowledge? A Right. I'm sorry to add to that last question, but the Board did release it to the public. Q Released the book to the public?
Yes.
ft
~
I "said before it was widely distributed/ and,
19 20 21 22 23 24 . 25
I assume, widely read. Dr. Stearns, referring to your report at page 104, I think you told us on Mr. Breslin's questioning that you wrote this statement about the principal of the neighborhood school? A I believe that is correct, yes, ft Is that right?"
Dr. Stearns - Cross
52
i 2
3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17
Yes.
And, Doctor, you said in the second paragraph,
"It must be recognized that ttifi practice," referring to neighborhood school, '"is a logical one, and therefore, one which is generally followed in school administration. . '.. " * The Commissioner of Education in the 1 5 Englewood case 94 traced the history of this practice In New Jersey, and indicated that it had been always upheld whenever contested in the courts." You stated that, didn't you?
A
Yes.
Q
A
Yes.
Because you believe that to be true?
Now, during all the time that you were
Superintendent of Schools, you followed in your recommendations, and the Board ratified in their action, the principal of theneighborhood school policy,T did~they~not? A
*
Ve followed the boundary lines that were established. ' . Q And the boundary lines that were established
20 21 22 23 24 25
represented the basis of the principal of the neighborhood school concept. A We are hung up a little bit by what we mean by Q I am Just quoting your statement where you said "the principal of neighborhood school."
Dr. Stearns - Cross

i 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 _19 20 21 22 23 24 25
_53_ that a third basic consideration, page 10*, involves the
principal A Let me answer the question yes. Q

'
in other words, during all the tine you were

' . " . ' ;&
Superintendent your recommendations to and the action of the Board, by the Board, accepted the principals and put into effect the neighborhood school concept?
Yes.
Q Now, Dr. Stearns, have you any idea when the
property which represents the area where Queries School now is built was acquired by the Board? A The records would have to show this, but it was some '-'
tine prior to 1930. Q
So, in other words, it's elementary, isn't it,
that the Board of Education didn't purchase the Queries tract in the last few years in order to build a school there? " ' ' -.-.}*.. "A That-is- correct. Q So, they have held it for many years. Is that right?
Yes.
Q Dr. Stearns, with 18 yea,rs of experience as
Superintendent of Schools of the City of Englewood, with an intimate knowledge of What has gone on during all of that tine and with various members of the Board
Dr. Stearns - Create
l
2 3 4
of Education as you knew then from time to time, can you say as a positive fact, from your onn knowledge, that the Board of Education bas never created any condition of racial imbalance by design?
5 6 7 8
9 10 11
Yes. . . - . . - Q With your experience that I have Just outlined
to you, are you willing to say that the educational opportunity for all children of the elementary schools is equal? (There la an objection by Mr. Kunstler.). (There is a discussion between counsel.) (The Reporter repeated the pending question.) Q < Listen carefully to every word I put there because every word Is important. A The educational opportunity, yes. Q
12 13
14
'15 16 17 18
Dr. Stearns, during all of your years with the ' ' ' .-'-' '.... Board, did the Board at any time intentionally or purposely segregate any group of children by race, pursuant to any policy of the Board of Education? A No, they did not, (There is a comment made by Mr. Lebson.) Q Dr. Stearns, in the Ancrum petition there is
19
20 21 22
23
24
language to this effect, and I don't know whether Mr. Ancrum subscribes to it or not, but I am Just reading
25
Stearns - Cross
[1
2 3 4 5
6 7
8
yesterday. * Well, I think that is correct. , that .s correct. Is that correct?

A
Yes.
(There is a comment n,ade by Mr. Lebson. )

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
(The hearing recessed for lunch.)
18-
20 21 22 23 24 25
IN THE MATTER OF Transcript of ENGLEWOOD SCHOOL HEARING
Part 4
RICHARD YERZY for RICHARD YERZY ASSOCIATES Certified Shorthand Reporters 19-01 Hillary Street Fair Lawn, New Jersey
D R . i\
H A R R Y
L.
S T E A R N S , .
resumes t h e
stand and testifies, further, as follows:

REDIRECT EXAMINATION I-/ . . -, _ -'
't-
BY MR. BROWN: Q Now, Dr. Stearns, I am going to direct
your attention to this map which I would like to have marked for identification purposes as the Elementary School Districts for the year 1954-1955 for the" City - of Englewood. MR. BROWN: Will you mark this for identification purposes, please? (Discussion among counsel.) (The aforementioned map is received and marked Exhibit PA-3 in evidence.) BY MR. BROWN: . Q Dr. Stearns, in your testimony you testi-
fied that you became the superintendent of schools in -l?M-_ JCsjthat_corree.t?' A Right. Q-* Now, when you became superintendent, Doctor,
would you describe for us what the traditional attendance district line was for the Lincoln School District? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) Q Doctor, will you come.down here, please? Would you
Now, the question is this, Doctor:
Stearns - redirect
indicate on the map where the Lincoln School District lines were when you became superintendent of schools?
I ! _ . . " . . . ' , " " . ' ' . , . .
A The traditional practice in assigning students I ' . - ' ' ' * followed this line. Q A Will you describe that line, Doctor?
The rear of the houses starting at the railroad
in a westerly direction, rear of the houses on Palisade Avenue through Armory Street, down Armory Street to Englewood Avenue, across Park, avoiding Elmore, Park
'J
over to Lafayette Place at a point near -- what is the street here at a point near Third Street/and I was directed to follow the assignments of my predecessor and we have assigned children in the house on the corner of Third and Lafayette to Liberty School which faced on Lafayette and this became controversial. There had been no direction as to where the children in the houses on Lafayette were to go to school and with consultation of individual Board members (Comment by Mr. Breslin.) ., THE WITNESS: There was an agreement on an optional attendance down Lafayette Place. Q Now, Doctor, was this optional attendance
in existence in 1944 when you first' came? A I do not know. (Objection by Mr. Lebson.)
Stearns - redirect 4 i ' . i (Discussion among counsel.) ! ' ;' Q - Now, Dr. Stearns, after you became the i . superintendent of schools, were there any additions built to any of the existing schools, to your knowledge?
Yes. Q And to what schools were additions built
and approximately in what year, Doctor? A Started in the -- I believe the year 1949 and comClassrooms were added to
pleted in the year 1956.
Cleveland School including a remodelling of the gymnasium :and two classrooms were added to Roosevelt School. Q Doctor, do you know how many classrooms
were added to. the Cleveland School?
Six.
Q Six.
Was there any other new construction in your term as superintendent of schools? A New construction, yes. The Quarles School, the
Engle Street -- not the Engle Street -'-. the new junior high school and the auditorium known as Academic Hall. Q Did the Board acquire any new property
while you were the superintendent of schools? A N o . Q ' . " ' - . Did they sell, give away or exchange any
property while you were superintendent of schools?
---.-w_1j_i. j. uj.vjiz)j\jn.
QF CONGRESS
Stearns - redirect
lishing the boundary lines for the districts that we i have in Englewood, if you know, Doctor? ' % A Well, the present boundary line between Lincoln .and Liberty, of course, was directed by the Commissioner. The boundary line between Liberty and Cleveland was established at a point where we could equalize the rolls between the two schools and this was the criteria -- Q A Classroom capacity, Doctor?
Classroom and grade capacity, yes. It was not done classroom by classroom but we find
the area where we had approximately the equalization of "the enrollment. Q Doctor, did the Commissioner of Education
(Suggest the line that was finally approved in 1955 or [did this come from the Board of Education? The Commissioner of Education directed us to find new line which would conform to his ruling. Q Who proposed the new line, Doctor?
Q
ion?
Was this approved by the Board of Educa-
Yes. Q Doctor, if you know, what is the racial
position of the residents in the Lincoln School tstrict? ' ' ;
wj.vj.o-i.uN, l^BRRKf
OF CONGRESS
earns - redirect The total residents?

Q i Yes.
I do not know.
i * "
J 4iti*-
TT
Is it more one race than another?
Yes.
Q Negro. Q Now, Doctor, in drawing district lines, What race would that be, Doctor?
weight is given to distance as opposed to school City? Is there a priority?
We try -- have tried to keep within the distance lation but when we can't fill a school, we have defrom the midpoint. ' MISS MORRIS: May I have that read back, please?
f t ,
^(Continuing) I will change that. Not "fill the t," but in order to equalize the enrollment or to school-. SS-MORRIS: Would you read that to me, please? (The requested portion is read.) Q So, then, Doctor, as a matter of fact, the
don't attend the school nearest to their home? bt in every instance. Q Now, Doctor, I am going to direct your
cis - redirect
Jtention to the meeting of September the 5th, 1961, ere you testified on cross that certain groups were esent. If you know, Doctor, was the P.T.A. invited
| this meeting? I think so, but I do not know. Q Now, Doctor, did the Board of Education
'
H"
ain Dr. Dodson as a consultant in the study that you
Doctor, after the so-called Spruill
Cement in June of 1961, did any other groups or
rested persons express their concern about this /J '/ Jlem raised by the statement? Yes.
Q i, Doctor? | cannot identify them by persons. I interest in the P There was conCould you identify those persons or groups
T. A. , various P.T.A's, I don' t recall others.
he League of Women Voters. Q^

.-*
Did any of these groups suggest any ex-
or consultants to be used by you? at to my knowledge.

Q Now, Doctor, I am going to direct your .
ion again to this map .
. We are concerned with this neighborhood school
s T redirect being the nearest school"to the child's resi-
Doctor, do you have any idea what the distance ^ from the southeast corner in the Quarles School t to the Quarles School? at distance is? |<3o not know. There is a table in the study which ies a considerable number of distances. I do not ether that is one of them. MR. LEBSON: You are now referring to R-l in evidence. Right? MR. BROWN: That .is correct, Mr. Lebson. THE WITNESS: Now, wait, just a minute. Would you identify that again? I think I can answer that without refer/ring to the table. | Q The southeast corner of the Quarles district ^School, what is that distance? the southeast corner Linden Avenue? No, Doctor, it is the boundary line at Englewood. That is east of Woodland Avenue -reet. (Discussion among counsel.) glewood Cliffs, call the boundary line, I guess}it is Maple Do you have any idea
Stearns - redirect now. I have fo:
it is just under two miles transportation, ^g,
ts that10
what about the distance from of the Quarles District to the - ' ' ''-/'-. ' '. | ' ' '.'' - .' p Quarles School? Do you have arty idea what that distance
is?
' . .'. ,. . '' ; , ' - -.-.
.;' '-".
(Comment by Mr. Lebson,) Q distance is? A Doctor, do you have any idea what that
No, I do not. Q That is closer to the Quarles School,
Doctor, or closer to the Lincoln School? A It is closer to the Lincoln School. ' . ' . . . ' ''...; Q Then, Doctor, if children are to attend
the school nearest their home, wouldn't the children who are presently attending the Quarles School in this ' attending " Lincoln School ' area, shouldn t they ' be . ' - " the '.?'.-- ' rather than the Quarles School? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) (Discussion among counsel.) (The pending question is read.) A On tHe basis of nearness, yes. Q Doctor, in your evaluation of the pro-
posals, will Proposal No. 5, as included in your report,
Stearns - redirect
11
solve the problem of racial imbalance in the Lincoln School and the Liberty School? (Objection^ by Mr. Lebson.) Q Dr. Stearns, do you have an opinion as
to what effect the proposal No. 5 would have on the racial imbalance in the Englewood Elementary Scnools? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) (The pending question is"read.) A I would be assured
(Comment by Mr. Lebson.) A (Continuing) Jftese are not identified by number,
but I presume you are referring to the one which (Comment by Mr. Lebson.) Q I am referring, Doctor, to Page 134, That i-s in your report.
Paragraph labelled No. 5. A
Yes. I have an opinion. Q And what is that opinion, Doctor?
Thai^ it will help to solve the racial imbalance. Q Now, Doctor, do you have an opinion as
to whether or not the proposal No. 6 on Page 134 would solve the racial imbalance? A Yes. Q A It will. What is that opinion, Doctor?
Now, Doctor, directing your attention now
Stearns - redirect
12
to the demonstration school, when did this proposal first come to your attention? A Sometime in Apr*, 1961.' Q A Who brought it to your attention, Doctor? ^
Dr. Theodore Van Itallie. Q
Is he a member of the Board of Education
in Englewood? A Yes. (Comment by Mr. Breslin.) Q Doctor, in your opinion, as you described ',././
the demonstration school on cross, did this solve the problem of racial imbalance in the Englewood School, elementary school system? A Is this "yes" or "no"? Q problem? A No. -
'- } . /' .
M-
It is just -- would this solve the .
It could make a beginning toward the solution of it. -Q But it-wouldn't solve the entire problem,
Doctor? A Not within the first year. Q Doctor, did you know --withdraw that, -
How much money, Doctor, if you know, would have, been required by the Board of Education to put this demonstration school in operation?
(Comment by Mr. Breslin.)
Stearns - redirect (Discussion among counsel.) THE WITNESS: . A . . What is the question,
13
please? . . . % ' (The pending question is read.)
I do not remember, at the present time. Q Doctor, were you familiar with the central
intermediate school proposal by the Board of Education? (Comment by Mr. Lebson.) (Discussion among counsel.) (The pending question is read.) A I knew that such a proposal had been made. Q Doctor, do you have an opinion whether
or not this proposal would solve the racial imbalance

in the elementary school system? A I do not know enough about it to answer. Q Now, Doctor, the proposal which you evalu-
ated in the Stearns Report at Page 128 which talks about the features of a central intermediate school, didn't you testify that this would solve the racial imbalance in the elementary school system? A Yes. Q A , Yes. As concluded in your'report?
'
. ' . ' ' . - ' Doctor, where was the demonstration
I see.-
/'"'
school to
Stearns - redirect be located, physically? A . . At 11 Engle Street.
. -
14
Had the Board approved of this action, ' " * that it should be held at 11 Engle Street? A I was told that the Board had approved of it. Q Now, Doctor, you were asked a question ^
on cross by Mr. Lebson asking you whether or not the children in Englewood had equal educational opportunities. Could you give us your definition of "equal educational opportunities"? A The right to attend .school on a similar schedule The right to have a safe and well
with other pupils.
heated building, comparable teachers,, comparable text books, comparable curriculum would be among some of the things that 1 would define. Q Now, Doctor, can a Negro child attending
a racially imbalanced school, a Negro racially imbalanced ^._schqpl_ -- let us take the Lincoln School -- does that# child have regardless of the teaching facilities,
tKe plant and these other matters that you have just talked about opportunity? (Comment by Mr. Lebson.) (Discussion among counsel.) (A recess is taken.) does that child have equal educational
Stearns - redirect -Q
15
Dr. Stearns, on Tuesday you testified
that the Negro child attending Lincoln School, because of the very fact that it is an all1-Negro school,had a detrimental effect on his-learning. You say in your report on Page 89 that "because of the stigma attached^ to an all Negro enrollment in class in the color caste situations, children who are subjected to such a school environment generally fail to achieve up to the inherent talent which lies within them, regardless of the effort and talent put into the educational program," and you testified this morning that all children in Englewood were receiving equal educational opportunities. Would you reconcile those statements, please?
MR. LESSON: .First of all, can he, "yes"
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think so. Q Would you reconcile them, Doctor? -
,|#
A _ I_am-~very conscious of- my testimony this morning. -(Comment by Mr. Breslin.) A 'All right. According to some laws of learning which I studied a good many years ago, and which I have found to be effective through the years, a child is influenced in his learning by three characteristics, which, probably, old timers will recognize as readiness, exercise and
Stearns - redirect
16
effect, "readiness" being the background of the child to learn, his motivation, experiences; "exercise" being his drill and practice and experience and exposure to the elements of learning and "effect" being whether he gets satisfaction out of the learning process or not. .- ' ' . " - I*. We ten'd to learn better the things which give us satisfaction. .
Now, this is my honest bpinicin. ; / (Comment by Mr. Breslin.) A (Continuing) That wherever you have a situation
which removes any one of those three, that it becomes more difficult for the child to get out of himself and put into his learning process the talents which lie within him.
Now, from my experience in dealing with the Englewood School situation, I honestly believe that some of those detrimental elements exist in the --among the -f children -who -go to .the Lincoln School. I think that is the best answer in reconcilement that
* . ' . " ' ' . '
I can give. Let me say that the testimony this morning -(Comment by Mr. Lebson.) A (Continuing) Well, the testimony this morning that
opportunity is equal, this is something which is granted to all students in the City by the Board and the City
Stearns - redirect
17
through its elements of the school system and it is, so far as I can testify, completely equal, subject, of course, to limitations in architecture of buildings and personalities of teachers and so oh,Jwhich, I think, sort of balance each other out from one'school to another. But, the ability to avail one's self of the opportuni^y which is offered is the-^th'ing which is involved
- -' '' " J . . . " . - ii
here. ' - '.''J. ' '"'.'. ' ; : ' j ' ' ' - ' ' - . - . ' ' ;-' ' ': '-" ' "- J 'I, personally, do not know ,whether this is .a/legal problem. .This is for the commissioner to decide. ' Q /
Doctor, on c^sfs-examination you answered
this to a question. The question was this: "Isr it t'rue that performance in school depends on some of these ,
factors, number one, individual characteristics of each child" (Comment by Mr. Lebson.)._ Q ' (Discussion^ among counsel.) . Doctor, I will repeat my question.
You answered on cross to a question put to you
by Mr. Breslin: "Is it true that performance in the school depends on some of these factors: number one, individual (' ' . characteristics of eachchi'ld^," You said, "Right." '!' I _
"Maturity, intelligence,-articulation and so
Stearns - redirect forth?" "Right." -
18
"Guidance, supervision andencouragement of the parents?"

*
"Right." !_..
"Security of home, environment?" "Right." "Educational background of parents?" . "Yes." '
"Living conditions in the home," and so forth, which you said, "Right." Doctor, does the fact that a Negro child at- . tends an all Negro school affect his performance in school? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) Q Would the fact that a Negro child attends
Lincoln School, as presently constitutedI am talking about the racial imbalance affect the performance in the school? ' (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) (Discussion among counsel.) (The following question is read: "Question: Would the fact that a child, a Negro child, attends Lincoln School as presently constituted, affect the performance in
Stearns - redirect | A| school?")
19- ' ~"
On the basis of the answer to the previous question,
!
yes-
' . - - '
, .
J|
(Discussion*among counsel.) REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KUNSTLER: Q On Page 89 of your report, Dr. Stearns,
the following language appears: "However,, there is a growing array of research studies and of testimony of experienced educators leading to the conclusion that because of the stigma attached to an all Negro enrollment in the color caste situations, children who,are subjected to such a school environment generally fail to achieve up to the inherent talent which lies within them, regardless of the effort and talent put into the educational program." Do you subscribe today to that statement? (Comment by-Mr-.-Lebson.)
MR. KUNSTLER:
All right.
I will complete the question. Q Insofar as it applies to the.Lincoln
School in Englewood today? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) . :

A
(Discussion among counsel.)
Yes, in a way.
Stearns - redirect-- Runstier 20 ' ' | . Q Well, if you say, "In a way," would you like to elaborate? A No more than I did in my previous answer, covering i . . "P this same phrase. Q And that was the answer to Mr. Brown's
question just a few moments ago?
Yes. Q Now, on that same page, you also" refer
to a case known as Brown against the Board of Education. 347 United States 483. Are you familiar with that decision? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.) (Discussion among counsel.) , MR. KUNSTLER: I will withdraw the question. Q Dr. Stearns, . in this case that I have
cited, Brown against the Board of Education, which the Commissioner said he has taken into judicial notice, the following statement appears .-,* (Objection by Mr. Lebson.) (Discussion among counsel.) Q Dr. Stearns, do you believe that segre-
gation in the public schools and by "segregation", I mean the condition at the Lincoln School as it exists today, has a detrimental effect :on the Negro students
Stearns - redirect - Kunstler attending that school? . 1 (Comment by Mr. Lebson.) !
21
MR. KUNSTLER: I withdraw the question. I will rephrase it and this will be.my last on the subject. Q Dr. Stearns, do you believe that the
constitution, pupil constitution- of the Lincoln School as it exists today, namely, approximately ninety-eight per cent Negro and two per cent white, has a detrimental effect on the Negro pupils attending that school? (Objection by Mr. Breslin.J (Discussion among counsel.) Q Dr. Stearns, in your report, you found --
and you have already testified to this that the Lincoln School, as of October, 1961, had 538 total enrollment of which 7 were white and 531 were Negro. Now, on the basis of those figures, as of October of 1961, do you think that that ratio, that type of school as to pupil population, would have a detrimental effect on a Negro -.child attending that school? A Frankly, 1 think it is the same question I answered ..'..".,-' ''.'
before. Yes. Q
V . -
- .
I said it was my last question as to that.
It is my last question.
Stearns - redirect - Kuhstler .j
22
- MR. LESSON: As to that. (Discussion among counsel.) Q Dr. Stearns, in Judge Lebson's cross-
' '
examination, he asked you to define, as I remember somewhere, the term "racial imbalance" or the term "imbalance" and as you defined it to him, as I remember your testimony, you said it was more of one'kind than another. that .correct? A yes. " Is
Well,, that was the position that he forced me to, '," '.
I had previously defined it . . A yes. , (Objection by Mr. Breslin.)
(Continuing) Well, it is evident I answered it, -
Yes.
Now, in connection with the report entitled, "Englewood, Its People and Its Schools," where the term "racial imbalance" appeared, what did you mean by its definition in this report?
(Objection by Mr. Lebson.)
(Discussion among counsel.)

MR. KUNSTLER: .RECROSS-EXAMINATION I have no further questions.
MR. BRESLIN: Q,
, . ': I, ' '. ' ' ',.. Doctor, you were asked about the child
Stearns - recross - Breslin

somewhere in the southeastern corner of the Quarles school district. I A ' | .Yes.. . ' .
i ' '
23
- "
Would you come down here and point that
out, please? You pointed to here, which is the easterly Correct? -:." .' ' ;j
boundary line of Englewood, approximately.
Yes.. Q
. ' .'. ' . '
'
Were you asked, also, about this?
A
"
Yes. Q Well, you were asked about both of them,
not just the one. Correct? A Correct. - Q By the way, while the recess was declared,
immediately you and Mr. Brown conferred on that witness stand -- please let me finish -- for at least ten minutes, didn't you? A I don't Jenow_the_tlme_. He. came to.~me. Q didn't you? What did you discuss? Your testimony, ' (Objection by Mr. Brown.) Q Did you discuss your testimony and the . . "'
answers you had given to Mr. Lebson? A Not to Mr. Lebson. Q Did you discuss your testimony?
.Stearns. - recross - Breslin

A
Yes. i i Q
I
24
' . Did you discuss it last night?

. "
N| o.
. ; . - '
Now, these questions which were asked of
you, now, were discussed by you and Miss Morris before you agreed to testify in this case. Is that not a fact? (Comment by Mr. Kunstler.) (Discussion among counsel-.) Q A Were they there discussed?. >
I am trying to think what the conversation was but
I do not recall that the questions that have been asked of me this afternoon were discussed. Q A And the substance was not discussed?
I do not recall. Q You do not recall.
That is your best answer. Let's get back to this. By the way, dW you approve of J;hjLs drawing, of these lines for the Quarles School as shown on this map? A I approved of this line. MR. BRESLIN: Now, will you, please, repeat my question. I would like an answer to my question so there is no confusion in the record. Will you please repeat the question?
rns - recross - Breslin
25
(The pending question is read.) (Comment by Mr. Brown.) (Discussion among counsel.) I can't answer it "yes" or "no", because Brecon- * d some of the lines and others I had nothing to do
Now, Doctor, the question directed to you
"Did you approve of the lines as shown on this map?" (Objection by Mr. Brown.) (Discussion among counsel.) Q Doctor, isn't this the line of the Quarles
rict that is presently in existence? Yes. Q This line.
I pointed to this one. I was wrong. I wish you would be more careful. You are pointing to a section, not a line. Q I pointed to a section and you said, "Yes." This is the section.
is not correct, is it? Yes. Q
Now, so, therefore, the simple answer to
uestion would be, "Yes," that you did approve of the s of the Quarles School district as shown on this
(Objection by Mr. Brown.)
ns - recross - Breslin (Discussion among counsel.)
- 26
COMMISSIONER:GROEZINGER: Will you answer the question again? THE WITNESS: As I gave it before. Q No, no. What is it now? The truth.
|Tes, I worked with those lines. Q That is not the question.
jrawn on this map?,
By that, do you mean you approved of the lines - / /' .' J ' /
7
II don't know' if it is a question of my approval, (ter of consideration, yes, I did. Q Well, Doctor, before this line was finally
' V : - ; . ' / - / '
j j
ved by the Board, you suggested changes in it? [ill right.;' "
fNow, do you want a specified line? Q Don't get'ahead of me, please.
Just answer my question. MR. BSESLIN: No, may I have the question? I don't know whether it was answered or not.
'
(The pending question is read.)
Q [Yes. Q
Is that correct?
You approved of it. Correct?
Now, do you, today, have any criticism of those
ns - recross - Breslin
27
lines in the Quarles School as being proper lines he City of Englewood? (Comment by Mr. Lebson.) _ (Discussionanong counsel.) Q Let me put it this way: After the lines
nally drawn strike that out. Did you draw the language of the suggested
- > - - . - j .
es which resulted in the final lines of the Quarles

district?
fes.
Q
'
'
'
And after they were drawn, presented to
ard of Education, did you complain and say they [t proper, from an educational' viewpoint? the ones that I drew. Q And, to this date, have you complained
ny part of that Quarles boundary line as set forth, y, on this map? Have you complained, at any time,
his date, of that being improper?
You have agreed, I think, that safety is ,
tant problem?
=, yes.
Now, this problem given to you of the
this area, to go to Lincoln School would he Icross the railroad?
28
MR. KUNSTLER: Your Honor, I don't think we will have a record here that you can read. eqÔttSSIGNER GROEZINGER: Let the record, show that counsel pointed to the southeast area of the Queries School district.
Q A . Yes-. '" - '' Ufa Do you understand the question? ' ' ' ". ' '.
' ' ' . . .'- -
And as far as possible, do educators try
to avoid having children crossing railroad grade crossings? A I don-t know if there is any rule on the subject. Q Well, just common sense. Forget about an
educator. Common sense.
Would not common sense dictate, for the safety of tender children of-tender years, that, if possible in going to school they don't have to cross railroad, tracks? ^ .
(Objection by Mr. Kunsfler.) A Other things being equal, I would try to avoid
crossing gradings. Q All right.
Now, the composition of Quarles district as laid but, is there not a lack of concentration of homes with any substantial number of children going to public schools? .__".." .
Stearns - recross - Breslin (Comment by Miss Morris.) MR. BRESLIN:
29
I am talking about the whole
Quarles section,, . -.-.-.% - ' ' . ' . Q From the standpoint of the taxpayers and the educational system, isn't it a fact that the less of the concentration of public school children, thi larger the area of that particular section? A Yes. Q ~ Is there anything improper about that,
from your experience, in so providing for a greater area for a district where there is less of a concentration? A That' s right. Q As a matter of fact, would it not be true ..
that if you cut this Quarles district in half, you wouldn't even fill the Quarles school,, would you? A That i s t r u e . ' . . , Q And did you have some strike that.
I am sure you had consideration for Mthe expenses in administration in filling up the schools, didn't you, Doctor? A Yes, yes. Q Childrenwise, number, can you tell me ap-
proximately -- I know it is in your charts but it might simplify it if you can tell me here -- this we call what area?
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTICNS CF TOE MANUSCRHT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - recross - Breslin A Lincoln School area. Q
30
As of the date of your report, that had .
approximately how many schoql children? A Something over five hundred. Q _ _ Lincoln School? A Yes. Q A . .. '' '.'.'" ..' . .
. ' * .
And Quarles, approximately? I would rather - . .
I don't recall the number, exactly.
refer t o t h e report. Q
Would you refer to it, please?
I think you can go, back to the witness stand. (Discussion among counsel.) A 370. Q Thank you, Doctor.. Lincoln School was 538. The Donald Quarles School,
Doctor, by the 'way$ during your studies did you study or consider the Teaneck open enrollment plan ^ to relieve racial imbalance? A I had heard about it but I did not -Q A No. Q Did you study it? ' -
Well, Doctor, Teaneck is a neighboring
community to Englewood, is it not? A Yes. Q And before arriving at any conclusion,
, REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT- DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
31
wouldn't an expert go to a school district immediately adjacent to the district in which the problem was, to consider whether they had the problem and if they had, how they had met it? (Objection by Mr. Brown.) ,
' . . . . fc;
What is the question? I do not consider it necessary, if I remember your
question'correctly. _/ Let'-s have it read.
,
,
'.
.
(The requested portion is read.) A I do not consider that necessary. Q
Well, Doctor, isn't the practical exper-
ience of a school district with a problem and how it was solved or attempted to be solved much more important than reading a lot of books about theory and arriving at a- conclusion as to how to face a problem? (Objection by Mr. Brown.) A What is the question? (The pending question is read.) A Not essentially. Q Well, would it be helpful, Doctor? .-,f
Suppose I put it that way? A It might be helpful. Q Well, Doctor, the last ,few years you have
been a president of Bergen County, haven't you?
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLE1CTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
32
Yes. Q
And during that time, you -- have you read
the local newspapers about our problems with respect to what we are here about now? Haven't you followed them and studied them? A --'
Well, sometimes I read newspapers, sometimes not. I was not aware that Teaneck had solved their problem.
Jfcv .. . .^
Let me ask you this as an expert (Objection by Mr. Kunstler.)
Doctor, as an expert, as an expert, Doctor,
if you, rin fact, as of today knew that a neighboring community had a problem similar to ours, and had adopted an open enrollment system whereby the Negro children who wished to go to a school other than a school in a neighborhood could do so and that it reduced the hysteria and complaints, would you not then agree that that method of solving this problem should be seriously considered? A Yes, I- agree. ___._' . .._ out.
*
>'
Would you have any objection -- strike that
Do you have any criticism, Doctor, of a system of open enrollment with the cooperation of everyone in the community, where spaces are available to relieve the tension in one school, to permit the children in that district:, the children of the City_of Englewood, not
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS CfF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION /. LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
33
from anywhere else, or their parents, would you have any objection to at least trying a system which would
-* maybe, five or ten in Quarles or Cleveland and all over, try it out, see how it_works." Would that not be a very fair thing for everyone, regardless of race, color or creed? A Yes. I have no -objection to trying it. Q this too long. Mr. Brown to'ok quite a bit of time on redirect but, substantially, Doctor, did you state that the children are assigned to the schools with respect to two main considerations, nearness to their school and equally available classrooms? Now, Doctor, I don't want to reiterate
say,
"Well, let's take some from Lincoln, let's put,
Yes. Q Do you feel there has been any discrimina-
tion or manipulation against any race, color or creed with respect to that in Englewood? A No,*I do not.
Q enrollment. Now, Doctor, getting back to this open
In your report, you stated that you thought Englewood was ideal to work out a f air system, retaining the neighborhood school system, by, perhaps, placing
34
a few here and there to solve our problems, didn't you? A I don't recall that. Q Well, let me show it to^you, Doctor.
Doctor, I refer you to Page 105, the 5th paragraph. Well, just to save time, not that I am afraid of reading the rest of it, but the last sentence of 105, "It is in this respect that Englewood is fortunately situated since feasible options for solution exist without making it a test case for the neighborhood principle."
Yes. Q Doctor, is it not true -(Comment by Miss Morris.) Q Doctor, do you know of any white P..T. A.'s
that were npt invited to this meeting which the N. A. A. C. P. attended? A No. I said I was not sure that all the P. T. A.'s
were invited. (Discussion among counsel.) (A recess is taken.) BY MR. BRESLIN: Q , Doctor, do you know Dr. John H. Fischer,
former Dean of the Teachers College of Columbia University and now President of Columbia University? A I know who he is. Q Haven't you read any of his articles on
FROM TOE COUflCTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CCNGRESS
Stearns - recross - Breslin education? A I don't recall that I have. Q

A No.
35
You haven't?
">
(Objection by Mr. Kunstler.) A (Continuing) I am not familiar with Dr. Fischer1s

. -
writings. *j Q A
Pardon?
"
-'-'
I am not familiar with Dr. Fischer'S writings. Q Doctor, would you agree that the success
. - . i f . . .. . _
J 'i
of a school or the educator with respect /to the education of a child differs as between a child whose home background and daily compliments are different than, those who are living in an atmosphere where there-is no real home background and daily respect of parents? (Comment by Miss Morris.) (Discussion among counsel.) A I agree. _ Q Now, Doctor, I ask you if this is not a -
fair statement: That you nor any expert up to this moment can fairly say that any solution that you or any other expert might pnopose =- is it not correct that you have no assurance that that is the proper and perfect solution? A That's right.
REPRODUCED FROM 1HE COLLECTIONS OF THE >NUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns-recross - Breslin _
36
This problem, Doctor, I think you
have already said that it is a matter of financial concern and financial difference of opinion. Is that ' - . " correct?
Yes. Q
Has there been any real experience in not education, that you know of, I will say/including Englewood, particularly, but including the State of New Jersey has there been any real experience as to a solution and that that solution is the right one? A Not conclusive. MR. LESSON: What is the answer?. THE WITNESS: There is no conclusive -Q Doctor, getting back to this_one thing I
forgot, those two school buildings were three blocks apart, were they not? A They were close together. I don't know the distance. Q Of course, that, obviously, is not the
situation in Englewood. A That's right. Q .
Now, Doctor, on redirect and, also, on
my cross, you stated there were various factors which entered into'reasons for failure to obtain equal education which the State of New Jersey would hope that each
REPRODUCED' FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns-recross - Breslin child would attain. A Is that correct?
37
I don't recall the term "equal education". Q Well, I am sorry.
What word did you use instead? I am sure you know the-.substance of what I am %*' talking about. A I think I do and what I am referring to is bringing
the best out of each child what is in him. Q Let me ask you this, Doctor: What is
your opinion of the duty of the Board of Education and, of course, the superintendent of schools, an educator, what type of education, from your experience, is required by the State of New Jersey and the Department of Education? (Discussion among counsel.) (The pending question is read.) A I don't know exactly what you mean by "type". Q With respect to achievement or accomplish-
__...jnenJ:'._ What . . i youropinion of what is_ required for the ..s educational system to provide to each child (Objection by Mr. Brown.) (Discussion among counsel.) Q Well, you, as superintendent of schools,
while you were superintendent, had a duty which the Board ,of .Education placed upon you with respect to education of every child,regardless of race, color or creed.
REPRODUCED" FRCt-l THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
'Stearns-re cross - Breslin A Right. Q Right.

^8"
.8 3
Now, what was that duty, from your experience?

.
To direct and supervise the schools to the best of
my ability with the facilities we^ had to work with. Q To attain what, Doctor? For what purpose?
What final purpose was this that your duties were performed for? A Provide for each child as good an education as pos-
sible. Q Fine.
In other words, the highest possible education equal to all? A. That's right. Q Within, of course, the budgetary limits, Is that correct?
that the Board of Education would fix.
(Objection by Mr. Brown.) (Discussion among counsel.) Q Is that a fair statement, Doctor?
Yes, yes. Q
*
.. Now, up until you retired from the Englewood
school system, am I correct in assuming that you have attempted to carry out that -A .Yes. Q " ; duty? . '''.
M THE COLLECTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns-recross - Breslin IA Yes. Q
39
Now, Doctor, I started to ask you about
[the various factors which were important in a child reaching the achievement which you all everyone calls for the highest education possible and you recited many [number of things, of conditions which would be reasons ay some children failed to achieve that which is hoped |for. Is that correct? Yes. Q Now, are individual characteristics of each
child at least just as important as racial imbalance? Yes. Q And maturity, intelligence, guidance,
supervision and" all 'of these others are just as important? Yes. (Objection by Mr, Kunstler.) (Continuing) I will agree with you on that point., Q Doctor, from your experience as an expert
,n education, in your opinion, is there any solution where>y perfection will be -arrived at and all of these weaklesses abolished by any change of the educational system n the State of New Jersey? (Objection by Mr. Brown.) (Discussion among counsel.) (The pending question is read.)
IWDDUCEE FKOM-THE ICOLLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
earns -repress,. Breslin Not to my knowledge. Q
40
Doctor, am I correct that you did not
idy all of the factors in Englewood or any of the parular factors of weaknesses resulting in nonachievet; that you did not study particular cases and the ticular facts with respect to the causes?
Jit*
(Comment by Miss Morris.)

J , V
/
(The pending question is read.)

,
.
'
'
.
. '
..
Q or?
Do you feel there are' two questions there,
Can you answer that as one? Well, I did not study these, personally. Q As a matter of fact, Doctor, to save time,
[eport does not go into any study of those particujactors, does it? tiat's right. Q Doctor, when the addition was -- when the
nior high school was built and the 11 Engle Street high school was abolished or not used before it olished, the old junior high school, did that have egro and white children in it?
(Objection by Miss Morris.) (Discussion among ,counsel.) . Q ' Doctor, hypotheticajLly, where there are
REPRODUCED FROM TOE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRAE* OF CONGRESS
Stearns-recross - Breslin
41
Negro children or Irish children I might as well get the Irish in here I don't think they have been in here yet '-- Jewish or any of us, all Irish or all Negro or anything else, if all of us were fortunate to go to a school and those of us who were fortunate were fortunate to have families of high education, background and so forth, regardless of color, wouldn't the probabilities be that the greater part of us would succeed? (Objection by Mr. Tate.) (Discussion among counsel.) Q Well, Doctor, is any school going to be '
perfect with respect to everyone attaining the highest achievement? (Discussion among counsel.) A The answer is "no". Q Let me finish it. -
I know that you are a little ahead of me but I would like, on the record, to get the full question. (Discussion among counsel.) (The pending question is read, as follows: "Question: Doctor, is any school, going *""" to be perfect with respect to everyone" .attain-: ing the highest achievement --") Q A at this moment, n the year of 1963? .
The answer is "no".
REPRODUCED EKW THE COIiECTZONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY CF CONGRESS
Stearns -lecross - Breslin (A recess is taken.) RECROSS-EXAMINATION

; . ' *
42
BY MR. LESSON: Q Dr. Stearns, this is going to be short.
I want to ask you a few questions, Doctor, because I don't want to leave the wrong impression in the minds of the public, the litigants or the press, because I represent all the children of the City of Englewood in the school system. Now, Doctor, there has been testimony given by various questions that have been raised here which have limited the nature of the questions primarily only to Negro children and I say that -- and I do not want to give the impression that the questions have been directed toward the Negro children, themselves, because I am talking about racial imbalance where there is more of one than another, not necessarily Negro. With that premise, do you understand what I am [talking about? .,
Now, there has been some talk where you have been asked a question that the mere fact that a school Is predominantly Negro, that that goes for a bad educa[ional advantage for the children in that school. You were asked that question and you said, "Yes.
Yes.
SEPRODUCBDJ FROM THE COLLECTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY.OF CONGRESS
Stearns - recross - Lebson Q
43
Let us assume, for the sake of argument,
that that percentage was reversed and that there were that many white.and that few Negro. Would you say'that
the educational advantages to those white children, the ninety-eight per cent white children, would be worse because of the fact that they are predominantly of one race as against the other, or do you limit your answer, strictly to Negro children? Now, that is the part I want to clear up, in fairness to all the Negro children in this community. A I would like to give a little more than a "yes"
or "no" answer, there. Q Do you understand what I said or I will
rephrase it if you want me to. A Well, I think I understand. Q All right.
Go, answer it your own way. A The only problem7withT the Negro is the fact that he
* ' '
is so"easily distinguishable from other races and the history and background of his race is such that when they are all put together, it does make a difference.
Otherwise, except for.that, Negro children are like anybody else and the same rules would apply. Q Well, following further what I have been
asking you, Doctor, I want to accept this answer in
REPRODUCED. FECM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns -\s - Lebson behalf of the children of the community.
44
Yes.: Q
.
And remember, again, when I am talking
of racial imbalance, I am only talking of more than one than the other. '--
Do you say the inherent nature of the individual or the inherent nature of the Negro children makes_ it bad because there are more Negros than white? A No, not the inherent nature. Q Now, do you say that there is any dis-
tinction between the fact that they are Negro in that percentage as against white in that percentage, makes , it bad, or do you say it is bad all over to have ninetyleight per cent of one race in ar school? | A Well, no, I do not say that. . , ,Q Now, Doctor, are you limiting your explana-,
jtion and testimony on the fact that because maybe some ff_these Negro children -have-bad housing-or bad accommoations or bad^rooms to study in, are you limiting it on hat as the reason why they don't produce results, or are fw basing it primarily on the group rather than oh using? ',','(Objection by Mr. Breslin.) (Discussion among counsel.) Q Doctor, what do you blame it on? ~
REPRODUCED-FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
Stearns - recross .- Lebson -
If it is not housing and if i-t is not living conditions, what do you blame that is wrong in the fact that there are more of the Negro children than white, whereas you wouldn't say the same thing was wrong if there were more white children than Negro in the percentages which we have talked about Lincoln School? A I tried to answer this, Mr. Lebson, when I said that
the distinguishing characteristic of the Negro makes him readily distinguished plus' the total of all of the circumstances which have put them in this unfortunate situation. . .
It has nothing to do with the innate ability or the quality of Negros as people. Q Now, do you limit your explanation to
grammar school children or any kind of a school that has predominantly Negro students? A Any kind of a school. Q [University?
[A Yes.
Doctor,, are you familiar with Howard
'
That is. an all Negro college (Objection by Mr. Tate.) MR. LEBSON: I think you are right. i
I withdraw it.
Howard University is predominantly Negro,
correct?
LESSON-
No
"
*~'~*bo a i w
So
far as T know. ajr as i i,
univ.rsi[y ,. 04-cy as you

school
And
Yes.
FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
earns - recross - Lebson
47
You mean as to their quality?
Yes.
. ' ^ . y
They were good. Q
As compared to the other schools, elemen-
schools in the City of Englewood, what have you to
As good as any of the others. Q Now, Doctor, you had some discussion with ~
of these other witnesses before and I just want to up something that I think can be done readily. The exhibit which is marked in evidence shows [lines, the boundary lines of the schools as they |ted at the time you left. (Yes. Q
.
All right. (Comment by Mr. Kunstler.)
COMMISSIONER GROEZINGER: R-l in evidence. Q You participated in the preparation of the
lines which were adopted by the Board of Educathey appear on Exhibit R-l?
And you said to Mr. Breslin, before, that
[you didn't know what the demonstration school |cost, it was your opinion tha the adoption of a ration school could be a good beginning to solve
REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF
Stearns - recross - Lebson what you called a racial imbalance? A Yes. Q

Yes.
48
And you still feel that way?
Did you tell the Board of Education that?

Yes.
" ':
Final question, Dr. Stearns, believe it or not. In spite of all the questions that have been
asked of you in various forms, did you not say to Mr. Breslin a few minutes ago that you still feel that there are equal opportunities available to all children in .the Englewood school system? A Yes. , "
MR. LEBSON: -You may take the witness. MR. BROWN: witness. MR. KUNSTLER: No further questions. MR. BRESLIN: I just have a few. No further questions of the
(Discussion among counsel.) RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BRESLIN: Q .
Now, Doctor, if that recommendation failed
over public acceptance, would you not agree, then, that if you carried that further, it could mean the end of the
LIBRARY QF
Steams - recross - Breslin
49
public school system in the City of Englewood by certain ' races and creeds going exclusively to private or parochial schools rather than go into this situation as demonstrated : % ' . by the demonstration school. That is why I say this is an important matter. (Objection by Mr. Brown.) * (Discussion among counsel.) Q /' Well, Doctor, you have repeatedly said / / . -. -" J 'j ' ' '.-' J that if the public didn't accept, .that the system will
_ ' / ' ' . /" j
j j
fail, haven't: you? A
' . -1 j '>
Jt
I don't recall where I said that. You don't recall that? yNo. Q You have said that if the people do not
accept the recommendations, the system or that method will fail, haven't you?
/
We made no recommendations. (Objection by Messrs. Tate, Brown and Kunstler.) (Discussion among counsel.) (Whereupon, the witness was excused and
( ' '
the hearing was adjourned, to April 5, 1963' , ' : at 10:00 a.m.) .

1963 Newspaper Clippings School Desegregation Part 3

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KEPFCLJUUtU

REPRODUCED FROM THE rnTTJT!TTfNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY Uf

certainly la not binding on my clienta.

FBCM THE CQLLELTJXtCi UT ' n . nnuj-ivi^r a. ^ . ^ , ic v^.,

THE COMMISSIONER! the question Is proper. R MR. KONSTLBR;

I'll sustain the objections.

OFFICIAL RKPOHTB* THKMTON. N. J.

REPRODUCED FRCM'THE OXLELTIUMS ur 'inc.

in Commissioner has to decide.

OFFICIAL HKPOMTEN TRENTON. N. J.

( D FHCM THE COLLECTICNS OF THE 3

i FJCM TOE coiiirrncHS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISICM, LIBRARY OP CCNSRESS

/f ' jnt to clear up something/ because this was raised before,

You have been down

You may continue,

orplciAU rttfctnrmm TKKNTON. H. J.

REPBCDUCED FRCM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCKUT

REPRODUCED FRCM THE

CF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, u_tiKttiu: uc

FRCM WE CX2LLBCTICNS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

3LLEETICNS CF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

In your visits to It's not a reasonable

It's a reasonable, I submit that none of

EUCED FRCM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CCNGRESS

158 Commissioner, this Is offered under the same way we accept

Read the answer. There

I'd like a ruling on

161 You expect him for

JOHN F. TRAINOH TMKNTON, M. J.

REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRE

IN THE MATTER OF ENGLEWOOD SCHOOL HEARING

April 3, 1963 Hackensack, New Jersey

REPRODUCED FROM THE COIIJ2CTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Stearns - cross - Breslin

N. A. A. C. P. with Miss Morris. I consulted with Miss Morris.

MR. TATE: A That's right. Q

He said in New York. City.

Where is your residence?

71 Glenwood Road, Englewood.

this trial. my business. Q A

Did you go there willingly?

When she came to your house last Tuesday

REPRODUCED FRCM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Stearns - cross - Breslln A I was not anxious to have her there.

Was that against your will that you sat

and talked with her?

She came and told me that she would like to have

She asked you discussed with you the

to be read in evidence. coming there.

REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Stearns -cross ,- Breslln

Did it take a half hour to have that con-

twisting anything around.

It did take a half an hour, yes, and some other

It was in September of 1961. Q

REPRODUCED FROM THE COLLECTIONS OF THE >5ANUSCRJPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Stearns - cross - Brealin

dy you saw first in New York City? Mies June Shagaloff.

COLUCTIONS OF TOE MANUSCRIPT DIVISION, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS

Stearns - cross - Breslin

I think the next time I saw her was yesterday in the

remember the date. ~~Q" -A Where?

In his office in New York City.