Cain

USA

Jul 29th, 2011 07:44 PM

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I have two 1978 Fender Precision Bass Bodies and the pockets are pretty good. On the 1977 Fender Precision Bass Body the pocket is very sloppy and there is a gap on both sides of the neck. I have a Fender Precision Bass Body the year I can't identify. It is 1976 or earlier; the neck pocket is perfect and very tight. Why is this pocket cut tightly? Is it the luck of the draw or possibly made a few years earlier before Fender got sloppy?

Mike Flynn
USA

Jul 29th, 2011 11:04 PM

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My 72 p-bass neck pocket is not too tight. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter.

barry.b

Jul 30th, 2011 01:16 AM

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Contributing Member * australia

one of the problems I have with my 74 Tele mudbucker (bullet truss rod adjust, 3-bolt micro-tilt) is that you can pretty much grab the neck near the nut and give it a bit of shove to move it out of alignment. made on a monday?

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member ********** ** united kingdom

Jul 30th, 2011 02:50 AM

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As C.B.S. ownership of Fender in 1965 took effect, when Leo Fender and Don Randall sold the company, gradually, changes began to occur. Initially, little difference was evident, visually, in the products. But the historians note the fact that the C.B.S. philosophy was very different, and that they installed a lot of "managers" who had absolutely no idea about the manufacture of guitars and amplifiers. What they were required to do was to be able to quantify and justify the activities at the factory and thus the job working on the line became de-marcated; one man, one job, sort of thing. By the end of the seventies, Fender production was never higher, a fact that should be remembered, but the quality control was hit and miss, hence "you might get a good one , you might get a bad one". One aspect of production that is mentioned at times is the neglect of maintaining the cutter tolerances; another is the early forage into cnc techniques (crude by todays' standards)which opened the

way to the poor results found on many of these instruments from that era. One story recounted in one of the books written by either George Fullerton or Forrest white, I can't recall, recounts a salesman visiting a store only to be mortally embarrassed by the fact that some natural finish guitars hanging on the wall still had pencil writing and marks clearly visible beneath the clear poly finish. The sloppy neck pocket was made all the worse by the presence of the "three bolt micro-tilt system".Remember that the micro tilt was initially designed and intended for the acoustic range of instruments, but was resurrected. If you have a TIGHT neck-pocket, then the system has half a chance, in as much as the lateral movement is greatly reduced. Indeed some work quite well to this day. If you have a loose pocket then the situation is aggravated for the reason just stated,( lateral movement) and the tilt, tight or loose fit, reduces the contact area at the heel to a minimal amount, and furthermore, the position of the adjustable rear bolt in relation to the tilt screw creates a fulcrum point allowing, over time, for the neck to develop an upturn in that area, with associated playing problems. Modern Fenders sport a tilt system, but it creates fewer issues, uses four neck screws, and is better made in general. Still, many builders and repairers elect to disregard the tilt, and opt to install a shim. Some individuals have converted their three bolt instruments to the four bolt arrangement, others have used shims located at the side of the neckpocket to overcome the neckshift issue. A good way to make the best of it, if there is is problem, is to locate a thin piece of abrasive screen material in the pocket,full length will negate any shimming effect, or if you need a shim, use an abrasive of this nature to provide grip; also the holes in the neck heel underside should be a tight fit not sloppy, likewise the holes in the body, although these ones should allow the screws to pass through with an interference fit and not "thread through". There are many other "seventies bloopers" that players recall and recount. One most consistent pain with many seventies necks, especially maple necks, is the tendency for some of those necks to develop a "backbow", and even when under string tension, barely show enough relief when lighter guage strings are fitted. This issue becomes a problem when the neck comes along for a re-fret. Examination and measurement of the factory fret slots often reveals inconsistency in both the depth and width of the slots, so installation of the frets originally, in necks with tight slots had the effect of bowing the neck

backward; some necks developed the classic "double hump" or " S- shape". Ever thicker polyester finishes didn't help, indeed, Fender proudly announced the "thick skin high gloss finish" in their catalogues, sometimes up to fouteen coats of finish. Of course, the object of that was to reduce the attention to sanding normally needed with thin finishes. So, loose neck-pockets were common in the seventies, with no real way to say what and when, but the problem can be dealt with if it occurs. Stack-Knob. (This message was last edited by uncle stack-knob at 09:04 AM, Jul 30th, 2011)

mudbucker
USA

Jul 30th, 2011 02:51 AM

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1977, and the 3 bolt design, only made it worse. IMHO

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member ********** ** united kingdom

Jul 30th, 2011 03:17 AM

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Couldn't agree more.

Stack-Knob.

mudbucker
USA

Jul 30th, 2011 04:39 AM

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"My 72 p-bass neck pocket is not too tight. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. " You can really learn alot by comparing.Your "conclusion" is WAY wrong.

Mike Flynn
USA

Jul 30th, 2011 09:59 AM

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I've owned the bass for 39 years. I have three other Fenders (including a real clean 65 and a 51 re-issue) and even an SX that all have much tighter neck pockets. Each has it's own wonderful characteristics but none have the overall feel. playability and tone of my 72. Perhaps my playing experience, my style and the sound I'm looking for cause me to draw different conclusions from the norm. I just think you need to look at the whole picture not just

the gap in the neck pocket.

uncle stack-knob
Contributing Member ********** ** united kingdom

Jul 30th, 2011 10:23 AM

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Mike, it sounds like a good one. I am far from condemning all '70's instruments. In fact around 1970 through 1973 'ish Fender tried to make amends in a way, by using wood that was more suited to instrument production, whereas they had been slipping into poorer material choice for a while previously. Some instruments from that timeframe around '70 up to '73 are really good. Stack-Knob.

WoodyJ
Atlanta, GA

Jul 30th, 2011 10:37 AM

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I bought a new Jazz bass in 1978. It was horrible in many respects...it weighed a ton, had weak pickups, that awful "thick skin" finish and a big neck pocket gap. I played hundreds of gigs with it because I didn't realize how bad it was. It was my first Fender bass and I assumed that's the way they were. I normally am not a fan of MIJ Fenders but in 1995 I replaced it with a MIJ '64 Jazz that was a far superior instrument in every respect. I've had several AVRI and vintage Fenders since then and continue to be amazed at the quality difference compared to that '78 Jazz. In the meantime I've played some '70's Fenders that were pretty good, but not good enough to pay the current asking price for a nice one. While there are some good ones, I would never buy a late '70's Fender guitar or bass without seeing and playing it first.

rockdoc11
USA Bass is the place . . .

Jul 30th, 2011 12:17 PM

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uncle stack-knob, Thanks for the really nice analysis of Fender during this interesting period. I appreciate the time you took to lay out these thoughts and conclusions.

barry.b

Jul 31st, 2011 05:23 AM

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Contributing Member * australia

"I appreciate the time you took to lay out these thoughts and conclusions." +1, USK. cheers.

callmebono
San Francisco

Aug 1st, 2011 10:53 AM

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+2 thank you to USK

Lewis
USA

Aug 1st, 2011 05:58 PM

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Contributing Member

USK... You da man!

Who is E. Sandoval?

Caca de Kick

Aug 2nd, 2011 06:08 PM

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Contributing Member * Seattle/Tacoma WA

My '72 also did not have a tight pocket at all, but the neck never shifted on me either...and I don't stand still when playing-I move alot.

Westport
Fima Ephron rocks!

Sep 21st, 2011 09:44 PM

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It's a thin squeeze, but you can slide a dime in the side of the neck pocket on my '73- J

Tim1
New Zealand

Sep 21st, 2011 11:05 PM

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My 71 Jazz had quite a gap too, but I kept it as it still sounded good to me. Only changed it a couple of years ago when I came across a 64 Custom Shop Closet Classic that just sent it packing in every way.

Basstorius
Colorado Springs USA

Sep 24th, 2011 11:54 AM

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I've got a '64 Jazz with a neck pocket I can slip a pick into. My '77 P Bass on the other hand is tight - can't even slip a thin piece of paper in it.

Steve Dallman
Contributing Member ***** Merrill, Wisconsin Dangit! Hot weather.

Sep 25th, 2011 03:49 PM

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Machinery was worn, and didn't get replaced. Routes were getting sloppy towards the end of CBS ownership.

Lewis
USA

Sep 25th, 2011 07:19 PM

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Contributing Member

When did they start making sloppy neck pockets? I'd say sometime in the early 1950s.

Who is E. Sandoval?

75 Jazz Bass: 3-bolt Fender Neck Pocket Tightening

Posted by Krishna at 11/02/2009 02:08:00 PM 0 comments

In the early 70s, Fender switched from a traditional 4 screw or 4-bolt neck attachment to a 3-bolt attachment(actually 1 bolt and 2 screws) on the Stratocaster, the Jazz Bass and the Telecaster Bass. This new three-bolt attachment also incorporated a tilt adjustment, that could change the set angle of the neck in the body slightly.

While the tilt adjustment must have seemed like a good idea to someone, the net result was a much less secure neck attachment which could result in the neck having substantial side-to-side play. As a result, many instruments from this era were converted to 4-bolt attachments, through
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plugging and redrilling of the attachment points and removal of the tilt adjustment apparatus. Over the past year, I have worked on two different 3-bolt Jazz basses - one a 1977 very clean condition, and one a 1975 that had been stripped of its finish and most of its parts. The 1977 Jazz was the first time I realized what the true problem with the 3-bolt attachment was: while playing the bass and literally, wringing it out - I kept hearing a little "click" - that sounded like it was coming from the base of the neck. I eventually realized I was hearing the neck shifting left and right in the neck pocket - certainly not a good thing! The shift was big enough that by pushing the headstock all the way to the "treble" side, I was able to have the G-string be at almost the edge of the fretboard - so that it rolled off during playing!! Definitely not good!! I also noticed that the very end of the neck pocket - where the neck butted up against - was not the smooth curve that matched the butt of the neck, but rather just touched the neck at the very centerline. Since the 1977 Jazz had a perfect original finish and I was basically just prepping it for shipment to a friend overseas, I decided to take a kind of short cut approach to take the play out of the 3bolt mount. I doweled the holes in the body - and also glued some splinters of maple into the neck screw holes, just to tighten then up. Then I attached the neck with the single "bolt" - and aligned the neck using string between the nut and the bridge - clamping the neck in position using a clamp with soft rubber clamping surfaces. I redrilled the holes in the body with a smaller diameter drill bit (sorry - I forget what size) small enough such that the screws would have to be threaded through the body AND into the neck. Then, while the neck was still clamped in position - I installed the two neck screws and tightened them down. The results was that the shifting of the neck disappeared - even if the neck to body fit wasn't very good - because the play around the neck screws was gone. A simple fix that at least stabilized the bass.

Then, a few months later, I received another 3-bolt Jazz Bass - this time a stripped 1975. The owner wanted to convert to a 4-bolt attachment, but I convinced him to let me try to stabilize the neck with a more ambitious approach - rather than drilling a number of holes through the body and into the neck - which in my opinion would greatly reduce their "vintage" value down the road. What I proposed was to shim the sides of the neck pocket and then to fill in and re-rout the area
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of the pocket that butts up against the neck - as well as tighten up the two screw holes through the body. This combined approach would then result in the neck making more contact with the body plus it would tighten up the whole connection so there would be no side to side play in the neck. Since the body was going to be refinished anyway, any added would would be pretty well obscured by the finish. The body had originally been Walnut - the reddish brown color that was available from around 1974 through 1979 or so. The original finish was visible in the neck pocket and the bottom of the pickup routings. What I initially did was fit the neck onto the body - align it - and then measure the gaps on the long and short sides of the neck pocket. I then glued in in tapered shims cut from ash (which is what the body was made of.

The sides required a little filing and sanding to get the neck into the pocket, but the fit was good, with still some side to side play, but at least better contact. I then cleaned up and straightened the butt-end of the neck pocket with a Dremel MotoTool and a mini-router attachment - and glued in a fitted block of ash - which was clamped securely in place.

I then used the same router attachment - plus some small files and sandpaper - and lots of test fits - to get the best fit I could for the neck pocket to the neck. These pictures with the neck in place show that the fit while not perfect, is MUCH improved.

Next came the plugging of the two screw holes in the body and neck - and the re-drilling at a smaller bore - for which I once again bolted the neck in place with the single bolt, and then clamped the neck to align it properly, before redrilling with a drill press. With the neck attachment tightened up all around - it was now time to refinish the body. I sprayed a piece of sanded ash with a nitro that was heavily tinted with a blend of medium brown, cherry red and a little walnut dye - until I achieved a color that looked like the finish that was in the neck pocket and pickup areas. As with any transparent finish - I had to build up the color gradually - and I alternated between doing vertical passes on one coat and then horizontal passed on the next, to avoid getting subtle "stripes" in the finish. This is a very difficult color to photograph - as it looks radically different depending on whether neon light, sunlight or a flash is illuminating it - the three pictures below are all of the same finish!

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Eventually - I did set up the bass with some of my parts - a 70s bridge and tuners - to set up the truss rod properly and insure that the alignment of the strings was correct - before shipping the neck and body back to the owner for final assembly with the parts he had.

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While this mod is a little tedious, in my opinion its a better option than converting a 3-bolt Fender to a 4-bolt - in terms of preserving the originality and vintage value of an instrument. I plan on doing the same mod to a 1976 project Fender Strat I have lurking in my basement as well.
http://guitargarage.blogspot.com/2009/11/75-jazz-bass-3-bolt-fender-neck-pocket.html

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