22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Techwood 65" Smart Led

4k...

Today's
Deals

Shop Now

539.00

(Pleasevisitoneofouradvertisers)
Nodonationsorsubscriptionsarerequired
Subscriptionchoices:
OR

AllThings(SafetyOriented)Motorcycle
Home

Profile

Register

$2.00permonth

ActiveTopics

ActivePolls

MostRecentPosts

Username:

ActivityHistory

Members

Search

Glossary

Help

SafetyTips

Password:

BoardKarma=40(3488positiveof3870
votesis40%ptshigherthananeutral50%)
SavePassword
ForgotyourPassword?

Youcan

Obtain

theentirecollectionofSafetyTiparticlesina33MegabytePDFPortfolio

AllForums
MotorcycleSafety
Physicsandthetheoretical
Skidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
NextPage

Member
JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

PeerReview:1

DiscussionTopic

Posted12/20/2006:1:16AM

Page: 1
Tweet

of3

Like

[Theconceptsandmostofthemathcontainedinthisarticlewerederivedfromanengineering
technicalpaperpublishedbytheSocietyofAutomotiveEngineers(SAE950354byJamesA.Neptune,
et.al.)butthewordingisentirelymine.]
Intheliteraturethereareendlessdissertationsonhowtoproperlyuseskidmarksinthereconstruction
ofanaccident.Thevastmajorityofthesearticles,thoughsoundingrelativelysimpleandobvious,and
drawingconclusionsthataccidentreconstructionistshaveusedincourtformanyyears,arewrong
fundamentally.Thatis,theyignorethefactthatthecalculationsusedviolate(actually,misrepresent)
theFirstLawofThermodynamics.Aboutthat,later.
First,Iwantyoutoseeadiagramofanaccuratelymeasureddecelerationcurveforthesituationin
whichavehicle'swheelsarelockedi.e.,maxbrakingused.(Weallknowthisisnotgoodespecially
onamotorcycle.)

Notethattheheightofthecurveisshownasadecelerationrate.Specifically,theheightisshownin
termsofGravitysothatthehighestpointonthecurveshownrepresentsadecelerationrateofslightly
morethan1g.(Where1g=32.2ft/sec/sec)
Amotorcycletire,ingoodshape,ongoodconcrete,cansupportabout1.1g'sofdecelerationbefore
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

1/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

losingtractionsothisisanexcellentgraphtomakethepointsIamabouttomakeforyou.
Noticethatthemajorityofthecurveisvirtuallyflatatadecelerationrateofabout.7g's.

Thatisrepresentativeofyourmaximumdecelerationratewhileyourbrakesarelockedandthetireis
skiddingontheroadway.Saidanotherway,onceyouhaveexceededthemaximumdecelerationrate
supportedbythetractionofyourtires,youwillquicklyloseabout25%ofthetractionyouhad.Or,you
havemovedfromtractionusingthestaticcoefficientoffrictionavailabletoarollingtiretothatofthe
dynamiccoefficientoffrictionavailabletoaskiddingtire.
Youallknowthatwherethetireisskiddingitleavesasolid,DARK,skidmarkonthepavement.Butdo
youknowthatthetireleavesalighter,sometimesintermittentmark,priortothatdarksolidmark?
Thisisknownasthe'impendingskidmark'.Whenyouaredoingamaximumbrakingeffortyoucan
actuallyhearthefronttire'chirp'asitleavesthatimpendingskidmark.
Sonow,Isuspect,yourealizethatthetotallengthoftheskidmark,includingtheimpendingskidmark
portion,doesNOTrepresentthetimewherethewheelislocked.And,further,youunderstandthat
usingthelengthofthatskidmarkandacalculatedcoefficientoffriction(u)CANNOTaccuratelytell
youhowfastthevehiclewasmovingatthetimethebrakeswerefirstapplied!!
Ithinkthereisatleastonemisunderstandingstillrunningaroundinyourheadaboutthis.Myguessis
thatyouthinktheskidmarksstartedonthedownsideofthehighestdecelerationratecurve
somewherearoundwhereImarkedthisnextchart.

However,infact,theskidmark(actually,the'impendingskidmark)startedmuchearlierthanthatas
shownbelow.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

2/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

(Remember,please,thatyouattainmaximumbrakingbygettingasclosetothepointwhereaskid
occursaspossiblewithoutgoingpastthatpoint.Whileyouarethereyouareleavinga'chirpy'faint
skidmarkontheroadway.)
Ithinkyouareabouttohaveaeurekamoment!Anaccidentreconstructionistcalculatesthespeedthe
vehiclewasmovingwhenheappliedhisbrakesbyfirstcalculatingthedynamiccoefficientoffriction
(u),inthiscaseabout.7,andusesthatalongwiththelengthoftheskidmark(Iwillshowtheformula
later).Inotherwords,theareawithintheredoutlinedrectangleinthediagrambelowisusedto
calculatethestartingspeed.

Whatthatactuallydoesiscalculatethespeedslightlymorethan.2secondsAFTERthebrakeswere
firstapplied.Thatis,therewasatransientbrakingperiodofabout.2secondsthatisnotaccountedfor
inthesecalculations.Anditshouldbeobvioustoyouthatduringthat.2secondsthevehiclewas
SLOWINGDOWNsothatthespeedthevehiclewasmovingatthetimebrakingbeganMUSTHAVEBEEN
HIGHERthanthecalculationwillindicate.
Whatwastherateofdecelerationduringthose.2seconds?Well,itstartedatarateofzeroandgotup
toslightlymorethan.7g'swithin.2seconds,andifyouassumethatitgrewlinearly,thentheaverage
rateofdecelerationduringthattimewouldbehalfof.7,orapproximately.35g's.
Notethatthereisaslightlagbetweenwhenthebrakeswerefirstappliedandwhendeceleration
actuallybegan(shownbelowasabout.05seconds.)Inthecaseofavehiclewithairbrakesthatdelay
isnoticeablylongerthan.05seconds.
Thewaymodernanalystscalculatethataverageisbyusingexactlyonehalfofthedynamiccoefficient
offriction.Thisisshownbelow.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

3/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Andnowweseethatbycombiningthegrayedoutareaswehaveamoreuseful(andaccurate)
representationofthebrakingenergyusedtoslowthevehicleandasaresultofthatwehaveamore
accuratetoolforcalculatingthespeedthevehiclewasmovingwhenthebrakeswereapplied.
Iknow,bynowyouarewondering'Sowhat?'Thiscorrectioninthecalculationcan'tmakeasignificant
difference,orcanit?
Iassureyouthatitmakesadifferenceespeciallyinacourtoflaw.
Letmegiveyouahypotheticalexample...
Youareridingyourbikeonaroadthathasapostedspeedlimitof45MPH,butyouaregoing
somewhatfasterthanthat.Suddenlyapedestrianstepsintothestreetinfrontofyou,noticesyouand
freezesinplace.Younoticethepersonanddoapanicstop.Notgoodenoughyourunintothatperson
andcauseseriousinjury.
Youaresued.Anaccidentreconstructionistwhoiswellqualifiedcalculatesthatyouweremovingat37
MPHwhenyouhittheindividualandfromyourskidmarksandhavingdoneaskidsledmeasurement
todeterminethedynamiccoefficientoffrictionatthesite,calculatesthatyouweregoing52MPHwhen
youstartedbrakingandthatyouwere59feetfromtheimpactpointwhenyoudidso.Youcannot
arguethatyouwerenotspeeding.Science(andpossiblywitnesses)provesthatyouwereindeedgoing
fasterthantheposted45MPHlimit.
Isthatallthereistoit?
Well,actually,notatall.Yousee,ifyoucandemonstratethatevenifyouweregoingonly45MPHyou
couldnothaveavoidedhittingthatperson,thenthatperson'sactionswereobviouslyacontributing
factorand,thus,youcannotbeheldsolelyresponsiblefortheaction.
Traditionalanalysiswillshowthathadyoubeengoing45MPHinsteadoffasterwhenyoubegan
brakingyouwouldhavestartedyourbrakingeffort87feetbeforetheimpactsiteandwouldhave
stopped13feetbeyondthepointofimpactsothat,clearly,theaccident(impact)wasunavoidable.
HOWEVER,theplaintiff'sattorneyhasfoundamodernanalystwhounderstandsthatyouHADTOHAVE
BEENmovingfasterthan52MPHwhenyoubegantobrakebecausehetookintoaccountthetransient
brakingtimewhilethetraditionalanalystdidnot.Hiscalculationsdemonstratethatyouhadtohave
beengoingataspeedof54MPHwhenyoubeganbrakingandyouwere73feetfromthevictimwhen
youstartedthatbraking.Furthermore,hadyouactuallybeentravelingat45MPHyouwouldhave
begunyourbraking93feetawayfromthevictimandwouldhavestoppedjustatthepointofimpact
thus,theaccident(atleasttheinjurypartofit)wasavoidablehadyousimplybeenmovingatthe
postedspeedlimit.Youjusthadabaddayincourt!!!
It'sgettingverylateandI'mheadingofftobednowsoIwillpostthecalculationsinthenextmessage.
BeforeIgo,however,Iwanttoplantanothereurekamomentinyourminds...
SinceABSpreventsskiddingbyreleasingbrakingenergyjustbeforeyoulosetraction,itshouldbe
cleartoyounowthatwhenyoupanicstopwithavehiclethatisABSequippedyouWILLLEAVESKID
MARKS!
nomaddan
AdvancedMember
1276Posts

Denver,Colorado
USA

Posted12/20/2006:10:07AM

quote:
...........Butdoyouknowthatthetireleavesalighter,sometimesintermittentmark,priortothatdarksolidmark?This
isknownasthe'impendingskidmark'.Whenyouaredoingamaximumbrakingeffortyoucanactuallyhearthefront
tire'chirp'asitleavesthatimpendingskidmark.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

4/14

22/11/2016
Kawasaki
06VulcanNomad1600

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
......(Remember,please,thatyouattainmaximumbrakingbygettingasclosetothepointwhereaskidoccursas
possiblewithoutgoingpastthatpoint.Whileyouarethereyouareleavinga'chirpy'faintskidmarkontheroadway.)

7yearsagoamotorcyclecopshowedmehowtostop.Hesaidyouneedtolistenforyourtiresto
"roar"andkeepthebrakinginthatareatillyoustop.Beyondthatareaisskiddingandpriortothat
areaisn'tfullbraking.
ThatadviceseemstofitwithwhatyoudescribeJames.Theroarwouldbejustbeforetheskid.
I'vebeenabletostopwiththeroarsound,butittakesalotofpracticetogoallthewayuptothat
sound,butnotexcedeitintoalockup.MostpeopleIpresume,eveninparkinglotpractice,don'tget
allthewayintothetireroarandthereforearenotstoppingasfastasispossible.
Thereisalotofbrakingleftevenwhenyouthinkyouaredoingagoodhardstop,ifyouhaven'theard
theroarthewholewaythrough.

BikeWhisperer

StandardMember
163Posts

Alabaster,Alabama
USA

Posted12/20/2006:1:23PM

Nottosplithairswithanyonebutdoesthetypeoftirecomeintoplayhere?Hardercompounds(more
milege)asopposedtothesoftertype(moretraction)wouldskidquickerthanthelatter.Giventhe
samebike,sameweightratios,etc.wouldn'tasoftercompoundtireyieldquickerstoppingandthereby
throwargumentsonewayoranother?

Honda
ST1100

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA

Posted12/20/2006:2:17PM

Thanksforpostingyouobservation.
Whilehowhardthetirecompoundisdoeseffecttheresults,theyareINCLUDEDinthedynamic
coefficentoffrictionanalysis.Thatis,youwillhaveahigherorlowerdecelerationratebasedontire
compound,butthelengthoftheskidmarkcoupledwithdecelerationrateyieldsprecicelyaccurate
resultsnevertheless.

Honda
GoldWing1500

scottrnelson
AdvancedMember
6878Posts
[Mentor]

Pleasanton,CA
USA
KTM
990Adv,XR650L

Posted12/20/2006:3:23PM

Howcanyouknowforsurewhatthecoefficientoffrictionisforatire?
Ifthetirehassatoutintheweatherforafewyearsit'snotgoingtohavethesamegripasanewone,
oronethathasbeeninsideforitsfulllife.
Idon'tseehowyoucangetaprecisedecelerationratewithoutmeasuringtheactualtiresinquestion,
andattheexactairpressure,tiretemperature,androadtemperature.I'vehadbothcarand
motorcycletiresthathadmoregripwhentheywerewarmthanwhencold.I'vealsoseenmultiple
articlesincarmagazinesshowinghowthegripchangesduetoairpressure.
Iremainalittlebitskepticalaboutthe"preciselyaccurateresults".

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted12/20/2006:3:26PM

Iwillheredemonstratethelogicandcalculationsusedtosupporttraditionalskidmarkanalysisthen
showthemoremodernmethodandexplainwhythatispreferable.
Foranearliertreatmentofthissubject,onethatusesonlythetraditionalapproach,pleasereadmy
earlierdiscussionhere.
TheFirstLawofThermodynamicssaysthatenergycannotbecreatedordestroyed.Thatis,theenergy
ofasystem isequaltotheenergyenteringthesystem plustheworkperformedonthe
surroundingsminustheenergyleavingthesystem. Asystem"beingdefinedbyacontrol
volumewhichisestablishedasaphysicalregionontheroadway.
Thetraditionalapproachusesthekineticenergyofthevehicleattheonsetofskiddingandwhenthat
vehiclebrakestoacompletestop,thenallofthekineticenergyhasbeenusedtoperformwork.
Providedthatthereisnocollision,theworkperformedissolelytheresultofbrakingaction.
Thetraditionalformulafordeterminingtheinitialspeedofavehiclethatskidstoacompletestop,
therefore,statesthatthekineticenergyofthevehicleattheonsetofskiddingisequaltothework
performedbythebrakingforceappliedthroughtheskiddingdistance.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

5/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Thedecelerationrateduringbrakingistheproductofadragfactor,f,andtheaccelerationofgravity,
g.Wewillsimplifythecalculationsbyassumingazerogradesothatthedragfactorissimplythe
coefficientoffriction(u)timesgravity(g).Thus,thedecelerationrate(a)ismerelyutimesg.
Letsputsomegivensinplacesothatwecanworkwiththeformulas.

NoticethatIhadtoconvertfromft/sectogetafamiliarspeedofmph.

Therefore,withadragfactorof0.78,thevehiclewasdeceleratingattherateof17.12mphper
second.
Howlong,then,didittaketostopthisvehicle?Ifyoudividetheinitialspeed(37)by17.12youfind
thatittook2.16secondstocometoacompletestop.
Nowletslookagainatthediagramshowninthefirstmessage.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

6/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

ItisclearthatthisisNOTadiagramoftheexampleIamworkinghere.Itshowsadecelerationrateof
0.70gsinsteadof0.78gs,andittook2.7secondstostopinsteadofthe2.16inourexample.
Butyoushouldbeabletoseethatthegrayedoutareaaccuratelyrepresentstheworkperformedby
thebrakesduringthetimeofskiddingandthatiswhathasreducedthekineticenergythevehiclehad
atentrydowntozeroatthecompletionofthefullstop.
NowletsalsoreviewthefactthatyoudoNOTsimplyaddtheamountofspeedscrubbedduringthe
skid(37mph)tothespeedofimpactattimeofcollision(also,itturnsout,37mph)inorderto
determinehowfastthevehiclewasactuallytravelingattheonsetofbraking.Becausethatnumberis
theresultoffindingthesquarerootofanothernumber,youmustcombine,notadd,speeds.Entry
speedisNOT37+37,or74mph.Rather,thatspeediscalculatedlikethis:

Thatswhatthedefendantsattorneyusedtoprovethathisclientwasinvolvedinan
unavoidableaccidentthatevenifhehadbeentravelingatthepostedspeedlimithecouldnothave
avoidedcollidingwiththepedestrian.
Butyounowknowthathisexpertfailedtoconsiderthetransientbrakingperiodof.2seconds
thatprecededtheskidmarks.YoualsonowknowthathisclientHADtohavebeenmovingfasterthan
52mphwhenhefirstbeganbraking.
Theplaintiffsexpertusedthemodernmethodofanalysis.Hisconclusionwasthatthedefendant
wasmovingatarateofspeedof55mphinsteadof52mph,andthatwithfurtheranalysishefound
thattheaccident(atleasttheinjuryresultingfromit)wasavoidableasthevehiclewouldhavecometo
acompletestopatthepointofimpacthittingthevictimatzeromph.
Sohowdoyouincludethetransientbrakingperiod?Well,youcomputeonehalfofthedeceleration
rateduringthetransientbrakingperiodof0.18seconds.
Thenewformulawouldbe:

=52.44+2.26
=54.7
=55(rounded)
Enoughabouttheformulasforthemoment.Iwantnowtopointoutafewempiricallyconfirmed
observationsthatmightbeimportantforyoutoknow.
YoumayhavenoticedthePDRnumberinthegivensof1.5seconds.ThatisVERYOFTENusedby
reconstructioniststorepresenttheamountoftimeittookthevehicleoperatortonoticeathreat,
decidewhattodoaboutit,andfinallytoreacttothatdecision.ItisaHUGEfudgefactorintheir
analyses.Itisusedtocalculatehowfarthevehicletraveledbeforebrakingbegan.Asamotorcyclist
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

7/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

youprobablyhaveaPDRofabout1.0secondsifyouarealert.(YourfingersAREcoveringyourfront
brake,right?)Imaginehowmuchthatfactordetermineswhetherornotanaccidentcanbeshownto
havebeenavoidable.
ThedynamiccoefficientoffrictionisNOTafunctionofspeed!!!Thatis,regardlessifyouarebraking
from60mphdowntozeroorfrom20mphdowntozero,thedynamiccoefficientoffrictionis
relativelyconstant.ThatisVERYIMPORTANTforyoutoknowbecausetraditionalreconstructionists
tendtouseaCALCULATEDdynamiccoefficientoffrictionintheiranalyses.And,theircalculationsof
thatfactorresultindifferentnumbersbasedonspeed.
Therateofdecelerationandthedynamiccoefficientoffrictionarederivedquantities.For
example,thedynamiccoefficientoffrictionisdeterminedbymeasuringthespeedofatestvehicleat
theonsetofbraking,theskiddingdistanceandthegradeoftheroadwayandthesenumbers,inturn,
areusedtoderivethatcoefficient.Unfortunately,byusingsuchmeasurementsyougeta
dynamiccoefficientoffrictionthatDECREASESwithspeed.ThatisaviolationoftheFirstLawof
Thermodynamics!!!Forexample,inatypicalseriesoftests,thederiveddynamiccoefficientof
frictionforatestvehiclewithanonsetspeedof20mphwasfoundtobe1.25whileitwasfoundtobe
.80withanonsetspeedof50mph.Thatdiscrepancyissignificant!Itresultsinsignificanterrorat
lowerspeed.(Ifthecoefficientwasreally1.25at20mphthenthedecelerationcurveshouldindicatea
steadystatedecelerationofapproximately1.25timesgravitywhenskiddingatthatspeed.Thereare
novehiclesonthepublicroadsthatcanmanagesuchadecelerationrate.
Theminimumtransientbrakingtimemeasuredrangedfrom0.11secondstoasmuchas0.25seconds.
Thatisremarkablycloseandconstantanditsvariabilityreflectedroadwaysurfacewiththelowest
beingfromnewasphaltandthehighestbeingfromnewchipsealedsurfaces.Thisfactorisnoticeably
higherwhenairbrakesareinvolvedtoaccountfortheairactuationdelay.
Beeninanaccidentandbeingsued?Youbettergetholdoftheaccidentreconstructionist'sreportand
lookitoverclosely.Youmightwellfindawaytoproveyourpointofviewthatthe
reconstructionistfailedtonotice.
Or,betterstill,avoidtheaccident.

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted12/20/2006:6:25PM

IgetfrustratedandwearybeyondwordswhenIreadcriticismssuchasthosethatprecededthis
messagecriticismsthatseemtoinferthateitherscienceingeneralormathareimprecise.Theyare
not.Theyarewhatallowprecision.
Nevertheless,Iquiteunderstandthatmathandunfamiliarsciencecausemanypeopletobeskeptical
andtovoicethatskepticismratherthanacknowledgethattheysimplydonotunderstandorhave
facilitywiththematerial.'Facesaving'isoftenanunconsciousactivity.
AstothecommentthatwhatIpresentedaboveraisesdoubtaboutthepreciselyaccurateresults...I
didnotclaimthatANYformulacancalculatetheexactspeedthevehiclewasmovingattheonsetof
braking.Instead,Iclaimedthattheformulasthemselvesyieldedpreciselyaccurateanswersthey
yieldanswerstowhateverlevelofaccuracyyouwishtouse.Letmebeclearaboutthat,ifthevalues
usedintheformulasareaccurate,theresultofthecalculationsDOshowtheamountofkineticenergy
consumedbythebrakingeffortand,ifyoubelieve(andunderstand)thelawsofphysics,that,inturn,
meansyoucanwithextremelyhighconfidence(indeed,certainty!)determinehowmuchspeedthe
vehiclelostasitcametoadeadstop.
Howisthatdifferentthanclaimingthattheycandeterminetheactualspeedattheonsetofbraking?
Well,asIpointedoutinthearticle,thereareMINORerrorsinallofthemeasurementsusedinthe
calculationsandasaresultanybodywhousestheseequationswillclaimincourtthattheMINIMUM
SPEEDthevehiclewastravelingattheonsettobrakingwastheresultofthecalculations.Thoseerrors
adduptoslightUNDERcalculationsintheresult.Nobodywillclaim,inthehypotheticalexampleI
used,thatthevehiclewastravelingatprecisely52or54mphatbrakingonset,onlythatithadtohave
beentravelingATLEASTthatfast.
TheseformulasaredesignedtopreciselyandaccuratelycalculateanAPPROXIMATEspeed.Theydoso
noifsorbutsaboutit.
Areweclear?Scienceandmatharebothpreciselyaccurate.Resultsderivedfrombotharewell
understoodanddefendableandduplicatable.AsIshowedinallofmyexamples,resultsareusually
rounded.Anyobjectionstodoingthat?Doesdoingsoinvalidatetheresults?

scottrnelson
AdvancedMember
6878Posts
[Mentor]

Posted12/21/2006:9:55AM

WellIhopeyouhaven'ttakenmycommentsascriticism,sinceIfeelthatbeingabletofindtheexact
coefficientoffrictionisimportanthere.Youmentionedtheexampleofastudyestimatinginitialspeed
at52mph,butwithabitmoreanalysis,theydetermineditwas54mph.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

8/14

22/11/2016
Pleasanton,CA
USA
KTM
990Adv,XR650L

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Isthereanychancethatthedriverhadold,coldtiresatapressurethatisnotoptimalforbrakingthat
wouldgiveareducedcoefficientoffrictionthatcouldhavemadethesameskidmarksfrom50mph,or
maybe45?Thatwouldbeanimportantpointtothedefendantinthecasewhereafewmilesperhour
makesthedifferencebetweenguiltandinnocence.
Overall,Iappreciatetheinformationyou'vepresentedhereandfeelthatithashelpedincreasemy
understandingofwhatoccursduringbraking.I'mjustconcernedthatthecoefficientoffrictionmightbe
abiggervariablethanpresentedhere.

Posted01/31/2007:8:28PM

jmerenda

JuniorMember
77Posts

Somehow,Iseemedtohavemissedthistopicwhenitwasoriginallyposted!Personally,Iam
fascinatedbythistypeofanalysisandfindtheinformationbothusefulandinteresting.Thanksfor
makingtheP&Tforumsuchawonderfulsourceofinformation.

Massapequa,NY
USA
HarleyDavidson
FXDLI

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Posted02/01/2007:11:46AM

Ithasbeenmypleasuretoexplorethesetopicshere.Feedbackfrommemberslikeyourselfprovehow
wrongIwaswhenayearorsoagoIdidn'tthinktherewouldbemuchrealinterest.

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted02/01/2007:1:15PM

JerryGodell

SeniorMember
441Posts

KansasCity,kansas
USA
HarleyDavidson
FXDSuperGlide

Mypolicedaysgobacktothe70'swhenonseveraloccasionswetookthevehiclesthatstruck
pedestriansandlockedupthebrakestogetthecoefficientoffrictionofthatvehicle.Thetestswereat
thesiteoftheaccident.Surprisinglywehadalabratorythatdeterminedspeedbythedeformationof
metal.
Theformulasarefamiliar.Wealsousedwheelhopinthedeterminations.Accidentreconstructionisa
science.
GPSandLasersareusednow.Igotintroubleincourtonetime.Iusedafireplugforareference.I
couldn'tprovethatthefireplugwasstillinthesamespotwhenthereconstructionwasdone.

Posted02/01/2007:4:44PM

ThomThumb
AdvancedMember
1594Posts
[Mentor]

quote:
OriginallypostedbyJerryGodell

Jordan,MN
USA

...Igotintroubleincourtonetime.Iusedafireplugforareference.Icouldn'tprovethatthefireplugwasstillinthe
samespotwhenthereconstructionwasdone.

HarleyDavidson
SportsterXL883

You'rekidding!?

Whatwastheoutcomeofthatone?

TT

JerryGodell

SeniorMember
441Posts

Posted02/01/2007:7:49PM

quote:
OriginallypostedbyThomThumb

KansasCity,kansas
USA
HarleyDavidson
FXDSuperGlide

quote:
OriginallypostedbyJerryGodell
...Igotintroubleincourtonetime.Iusedafireplugforareference.Icouldn'tprovethatthefireplug
wasstillinthesamespotwhenthereconstructionwasdone.

You'rekidding!?

Whatwastheoutcomeofthatone?

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

9/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
TT

Oneofthoselawyerthings.Streetsgetwidened.Utilitiesmoved.Anythingtowinacase.Needto
referencethefireplugtosomethingelse.LocalpolicenowuseGPS.Severalreferencepoints.Including
thegradeoftheroadattheaccidentscene.
Icanseealaptop,GoogleEarth.Overlaidwiththeaccidentphoto's?

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Posted03/22/2007:12:38PM

AninterestingPMwassenttomealongthelinesofthisthreadandbecausetheauthorspecificallysaid
IcouldquotethatmessageinpublicIhavedonesobelow.
quote:

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

PeerReview:1

Gooddaytoyou.pleaseexcusetheramblingintrusionandmyquestion.I'mnewhere,andhave,withinterest,readyour
postsonskiddingandtheassociatedcalculationofspeedfromthemarks.I'minterestedinlearningmoreaboutthe
subject,andwonderwhetheryoumightenlightenmeonthequestionsbelow,orpointmetowardssomepublished
researchwork.Asanewbie,Iwasunsureofhoworwhethertopostthequestions,butwouldbehappyforyoutopostit
onmybehalf,ifyouthinkitofinteresttothegroup.
I'mconsideringthefullprocessofbrakinginsofarasitrelatestoamodernsportsmotorcycle,andparticularlyatthe
frontwheel.Inotetheonsetofbraking,thetransferofweight,aperiodofbrakingwhichclimbsrapidlytoapeakvalue,
andtheeventuallockofthefrontwheel,resultinginafallofthebike.Iwouldliketogetahandleonthedurationof
eachphase,andthe(ve)accelerationvaluesachieveableineachone.Ihaveseenfrontwheeltyremarksofbetween
20and30metres(say6090feet)orsoinlength.Themarktypicallycommenceswith(callthispartA)ashortconical
taper,thenmaintaininganevenandconstantwidthwheregrey(notblack)depositisleftontheroadway.Then(partB)
Towardstheendofthemark,typically,thereisashallowcurvetooneside,wherethemarknarrowsandbecomesquite
black(tyrenowlocked,Isuspect)followedbytheinevitablefallover.
Ihaveunderstoodthatthatsomeofyourmathematicalillustrationsconcentrateonthelockedwheel/tyrepartofthe
process.Iwouldliketounderstandorestablishguidelinesorcalculationsonthepart(A)andhowmuchspeedmaybe
lostduringthemaximumbrakingunderweighttransferBEFOREactualfullwheellock,andthedurationofthatphase,
andthen(B)thedurationanddecelarationvalueofthelockedphasebeforefallover.Ifoneweretocarryoutatestof
thecoefficientoffrictionoftheroadway,andfindittobe,forexample,0.7g,withasledorskidtesthowdoesthis
correlatetotheamountofdecelerationatthewheelinbothphases?
Simplyput,howmuchspeedcanyouloseBEFOREyoulockthewheel.Howlongwillthebikestayupwhenyoudo?.
Bestwishes
WAC
(AynsleyCooper)

Inotherwords,WAChassaidthathewantstobetterunderstandwhatskidmarkscantellhimabout
brakingwherethoseskidmarksarenotprimarilytheresultofalockedbrake.
Hereismyresponse:
quote:
Welcomeaboard.
YouwouldpostaquestionsuchasyoupostedinthePrivateMessageinthePhysicsandTheoreticalforumwhereyou
havealreadyreadsimilarposts.
Iftheroadwaycoefficientoffrictionis,asyousay,only.70,thatmeansthatyourmotorcyclecanattainadeceleration
rateofnomorethan.70gbeforeit'stiresskid.Anythinggreaterthanthatwillresultinawheellock.
Ittakesapproximately1.0secondstoperceiveathreat,decidewhattodoaboutit,andthenreact(PDR).Braking
beginsafterthePDR.
Ittakesapproximately.2secondsoftransientbrakingtimeforabout75%ofweighttransfertocomplete.Duringthat.2
secondsyourdecelerationratehasaveragedabout.26g(halfoftheavailableDYNAMICcoefficientoffrictionabout
75%oftheSTATICcoefficientoffriction).
Atthatpointyoubegintoshowlightskidmarks(whatyoudescribeasgrey.)Decelerationrateincreasesasweight
transfercontinuesand,ifyouareparticularlyskilled,youentertherealmof'thresholdbraking'whereyouareveryclose
to,butnotbeyond,thelimitofSTATICcoefficientoffriction.Meaning,forexample,thatyoucouldgofromtransient
brakingandgettomaximumpossiblebraking(adecelerationrateofapproximately.7g)inanother.2or.3seconds.
Asuperblyskilledriderneednevergobeyondthatdecelerationrate.Inotherwords,hecouldmaintainadeceleration
rateofapproximately.7g'suntilhisbikewasstopped.Noneedtolockthefronttireatall.
Alessskilledriderwouldattemptexcessivebrakingpressureandexceedtheamountofavailablestaticfrictioninso
doing,andasaresult,lockthefrontbrake,beginahard(black)skid,anddumpthebike.
ThescenarioIjustdescribedfailstoaccountforthefactthatyouspecificallymentionedasportbike.Nomatterasyou
alsospecifiedacoefficientoffrictionofonly.70.Hadthesurfaceprovidesastaticcoefficientoffrictioncloserto1.0,
thenyouractualmaximumdecelerationratewouldbelimitedbythatrateatwhichthebikedoesastoppie(typically
closeto.96.)

So,let'sseewhatthatmeansintermsofbraking(speedreduction)inthescenarioheposted.
Sincethevastmajorityoftheskidmarkwasnotblackandsolid,butwasindicatedtobeacontinuous
lineofgreythatextendedmostofthe60to90feetbeforeturningblackandsolid,theindications
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

10/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

stronglysuggestthatthisriderisextremelyproficientatthreshholdbraking.Thatis,hemaintaineda
decelerationrateofnearly.7g'sformostofhisbrakingeffortuntilheexceededtheavailabletraction
providedbythestaticcoefficientoffrictionandlockedhisfrontbrake.Forargumentssake,let'ssay
thathemaintainedadecelerationrateof.68g'smostoftheway.
Thefirstabout.5seconds(followingthePDR)hadanaveragedecelerationrateofsomewhatmore
than.35g's.
Since.35g's=11.27ft/sec.,thataccountsforthefirst5.6feetofskidmark.Thatis,thebikescrubbed
3.8MPHfromitsspeedduringthefirst.5seconds.
Let'sguessthatthelengthoftheblackskidmarkattheendwas5feetandlet'salsodecidethatthe
lengthoftheentireskidmarkwas75feet.Thatmeansthattheremainingpartofthegreyskidmark
was63.5feetlong.Thispartoftheskidwascreatedwhilethebikewasdeceleratingattherateof
.68g'sor21.9ft/sec.
Thissecondphaseofthebrakingeffort,therefore,lasted2.9secondswhich,inturn,meansthatthe
bikescrubbedanother43.2MPHfromitsspeedduringthattime.
Thethirdphasehadthebikeslowingattherateofonlyabout.525g's(about75%ofstaticcoefficient
offriction).Sinceitwas5feetlong,ittookonlyabout.3seconds(5feetdividedby16.9ft/sec)and
scrubbedanadditional3.5MPHfromthebike'sspeed.
Thus,weknowthatthebikehadtohavebeenmovingatarateofspeedinexcessof50.5MPHwhen
brakingbegan.Buthowmuchfasterwasheactuallygoing?Thatcanonlybedeterminedifweknow
howfastthebikewasmovingwhenithitthegroundandthatcanonlybeestimatedbyhowmuch
damagewasdonetothebike/riderbythatimpactandsubsequentslide,andthelengthofthatslide.
IdidthisratherquicklyandsuspectthatImayhavemadeanerrorortwointheprocess.ButIdiditin
ordertodemonstrate,consistentwiththethemeofthisthread,thatthereisalottolearnfromskid
markanalysis.

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

WAC

StartingMember
4Posts

StokeonTrent,
Staffordshire
UnitedKingdom
Honda
VF1000RF

Posted03/23/2007:9:03AM

Whyareyouattemptingtosplithairsregardingthetransientportionofthebrakingprocessandthe
measuredskidmark?Theslidetostopformulayouquotedtakesintoaccountthatthedecelerationrate
(coftimesg)isanaverageandthataskiddingvehicledoesnotactuallydecelerateataconstantrate,
butatalowerrateinthebeginningthanattheendofaskidmark.Thecofisalsonotconstant,itisa
percentagetheForcedividedbytheMass.TheslidetostopformulaisNOTfundamentallywrong.It
producesaminimumspeedestimate(readnotprecise).Sincetheanalysisproducesareasonable
"estimate",Ifailtoseewhyyoufinda2mphdifferencesignificant.Giventhemanyunknown
variables,thescienceusedherejustcannotcallitthataccurately.
Ihavetestifiedincourthundredsoftimesoverthepast38years.BelievemewhenIsaythatno
competentreconstructionistwouldbesocavalierastoresthiscaseonatwomphcalculated
difference.Additionally,noPIattorneywouldinvesthismoneyinacase,orexpertforthatmatter,
thatwouldbedecidedover2mph.
RegardingyouralarmistcommentsaboutcourtcasesandcollisionreconstructionistsingeneralSir,
youarejustflatincorrect.
PS
Mr.Davis,youprovideagreatservicewiththisforumandIthankyoufortheopportunitytocomment
andtoshareacommonloveofmotorcycles.

Posted03/23/2007:9:40AM

Thishasperhapsarisenoutofmyownattempttoconsiderwhtherthebrakingcouldbeconsideredin
twoparts,butperhapsnotintheproportionsconsideredwithinJames.RDavis'originalSAEreferenced
post.
Ihaveseenthatapplying"average"(derived)decelerationstolockedwheelCARtyremarksto
determinespeedlostisanormaltechnique.
Formyownpart,Iaminterestedinviewsastowhetherapplyingasimilarlyderived"average"value
toamotorcycletyremarkforitswholedisplacementisacorrectapproachforalloccasions,because
ofthepartofthatmarkthatMIGHTbeattributedtoahighlevelofnonlockeddeceleration,andthe
partofthemarkthatcandefinitelybeattributedtowheellock.
ItalsooccurredtometoasktheforumhowlongalockedFRONTwheelmightpersistbeforethebike
felldown.
Justathought,lookingforinspirationandguidance,here!
IwouldbegratefultobepointedatANYresearchmaterialonthisaspectofmotorcyclebehaviour,and
inparticular,workthatattemptstoassessthetimeperiodthatalockedFRONTwheelconditionmight
prevail,andafterlocking,HOWLONGitmighttakethebiketofall.
EditedbyWACon03/23/20079:45AM

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

11/14

22/11/2016

scottrnelson

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
Posted03/23/2007:10:08AM

AdvancedMember
6878Posts
[Mentor]

quote:
OriginallypostedbyWAC

Pleasanton,CA
USA

ItalsooccurredtometoasktheforumhowlongalockedFRONTwheelmightpersistbeforethebikefelldown.
Justathought,lookingforinspirationandguidance,here!
IwouldbegratefultobepointedatANYresearchmaterialonthisaspectofmotorcyclebehaviour,andinparticular,work
thatattemptstoassessthetimeperiodthatalockedFRONTwheelconditionmightprevail,andafterlocking,HOW
LONGitmighttakethebiketofall.

KTM
990Adv,XR650L

PeerReview:1

Ihavenoscientificinformation,justmyownpersonalexperiencein1986oflockingafrontwheelon
clean,drypavement.Iwasonthegroundslidingonmyfacewithinabouthalfasecondofthefront
wheellocking.MuchfasterthanIcouldhavereactedtomyridingmistake.

JamesR.
Davis

Posted03/23/2007:10:51AM

quote:

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Additionally,noPIattorneywouldinvesthismoneyinacase,orexpertforthatmatter,thatwouldbedecidedover2
mph.
RegardingyouralarmistcommentsaboutcourtcasesandcollisionreconstructionistsingeneralSir,youarejustflat
incorrect.

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

LOL

Prettystrongstatementsthere,friend.

Letmeaskyouacoupleofquestions.Whenyouprovidesuchananalysisinacourtproceedingdoyou
havetospecifywhatformulayouusetoroundyournumbers?DoyouroundathundredthsofaMPH,
tenths,evenMPH,ornearest5MPH?
Unlessyoudothelast(roundtothenearest5MPH)thenthisstatementisunambiguouslywrong:
quote:
...Ifailtoseewhyyoufinda2mphdifferencesignificant.

Astoyourstatementthat:
quote:
Thecofisalsonotconstant

Thatissimilarlywrong.Whatyouandotherreconstructionistsdoisderivethatnumber.Indeed,you
derivetheDYNAMICcofasafunctionofstartingspeedascomparedtothelengthofskid.Becausethe
transienttimebetweenwhenbrakingstartsandwhenfullbrakingskidbeginsisaLARGERportionof
thetotalskidlengthforslowerstartingspeedsthanforhigher,yourderivedcofisnecessarilyinerror
andthaterrorcausesanonconstantcofexemplarforyoutoworkwith.Forexample,ifthestarting
speedis20MPH,thentheCALCULATEDDYNAMICcofisabout1.25whenanactualmeasurementof
thatcofisonly.82.(What,praytell,kindofsurfacedoyouknowofthathasadynamiccofashighas
1.25?)
Hereisacharttodemonstratehowmuchyourcalculatedcofvariesfrommeasuredvaluesbasedon
vehiclespeed.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

12/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Finally,yourassertionthat
quote:
askiddingvehicledoesnotactuallydecelerateataconstantrate,butatalowerrateinthebeginningthanattheendof
askidmark.

IsentirelydisprovedbythefirstdiagramIprovidedearlier

whichisanaccuratelyMEASUREDdecelerationcurve.
Makingverystrongclaimsthatsomeoneelseis'flatwrong'isprobablynotthebestwaytofurtheryour
pointofview.

WAC

StartingMember
4Posts

StokeonTrent,
Staffordshire
UnitedKingdom
Honda
VF1000RF

Posted03/23/2007:11:17AM

James:Thanksforrepostingthegraphhere.
ImayhaveunintentionallymisledyouwhenImentioned0.7g.ImeanttorefertotheDYNAMICportion
ofthecurve,ratherthantheSTATICportion.
Ineffect,Iwonderwhetheramotorcyle(skilledrider,highleveloffrontbrakingwithoutwheellock,
maintainedforsometime)mighthaveaSTATICportionofthegraphwhichisratherlongerthanthat
illustratedintheSAEpaperexample.This,itseemstome,wouldrenderthe"average"dynamic
decelerationapproachlikelytoUNDERestimatespeedloss.
Here,weseemtohavearoughlytwosecondlockedwheeltime,ifIreadtheinformationcorrectly.Is
thistypicalforabike?

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

13/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Scott:Notedandfullyunderstood.Personally,IwasamazedathowhardtheroadwaswhenItappedit
withmyteeth...

Posted03/23/2007:11:50AM

JamesR.
Davis

Thechartisrepresentativeofafulllockskid.Itcouldeasilybeofamotorcycle'sREARtirebutit
simplycouldnotbeofamotorcycle'sfronttire.

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Usinga.70dynamiccofyoucouldeasilygobacktomyexampleandassumeastaticcofof
approximately1.0andthenassumesomethinglikea.98thresholdbrakingeffortinsteadof.68in
ordertodoyouranalysis.

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

IbelievethatIhaveseenastudyindicatingthatittakesatleast1/4secondforamotorcycletofallto
itssideduringafrontwheellockskid.Ifthebikewasdeadverticalatthetimethatafrontwheelskid
began,andNOFURTHERSTEERINGINPUTWASEXPERIENCED(suchasaslopingroadway),thenitis
possibletoreleasethefrontbrakeandrecoverfromthelock.Butitishighlyunlikelythatsteering
inputwouldNOTbeexperiencedduringtheskidsoyoucanreliablypredictthattheriderwillquicklybe
eatingasphaltasaresultoflockingthefrontbrake.

PeerReview:1

Posted03/23/2007:12:06PM

WAC

StartingMember
4Posts

quote:
Usinga.70dynamiccofyoucouldeasilygobacktomyexampleandassumeastaticcofofapproximately1.0andthen
assumesomethinglikea.98thresholdbrakingeffortinsteadof.68inordertodoyouranalysis.

StokeonTrent,
Staffordshire
UnitedKingdom
Honda
VF1000RF

ThisisjustthepointthatIwasattemptingtogettothanks.Formalresearchreferencesanyone?
Page: 1

of3

DiscussionTopic

NextPage

JumpTo: SelectForum
AllThings(SafetyOriented)Motorcycle
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.48seconds.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485

MasterStrategyGroup

14/14

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Hamlyn all colour cook book

(hamlyn all colour...

Return to
Your Cart

2.81

(Pleasevisitoneofouradvertisers)
Nodonationsorsubscriptionsarerequired
Subscriptionchoices:
OR

AllThings(SafetyOriented)Motorcycle
Home

Profile

Register

$2.00permonth

ActiveTopics

ActivePolls

MostRecentPosts

Username:

ActivityHistory

Members

Search

Glossary

Help

SafetyTips

Password:

BoardKarma=40(3488positiveof3870
votesis40%ptshigherthananeutral50%)
SavePassword
ForgotyourPassword?

Youcan

Obtain

theentirecollectionofSafetyTiparticlesina33MegabytePDFPortfolio

AllForums
MotorcycleSafety
Physicsandthetheoretical
Skidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
PreviousPage|NextPage

Member
1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

DiscussionTopic

Page: 2

of3

Posted03/23/2007:11:06PM

Youknowitwaslike4AmwhenIwrotemycomment.Ihavejustrereaditandyouareindeedcorrect
thatIwastoostrong.Iapologizeforthatandshallendeavortoimprove.Idoappreciateyourwisdom
inlaughingmyrudenessoff.
Inanswertoyourquestionsandcomments:
Idon'tuseaformulatoroundmynumbers.Duringmultiplecalcs.,Icarrymynumberstoatleast
threedecimalshowever,Irarelyopineinadecimalvalue.Dependingonthesensitivityoftheformula
usedandtheaccuracyofthedataavailable,Iwillgivearange.Theslidetostopformulaisoneofthe
mostaccurateso,dependingontheaccuracyofthevariables,perhapsa5mphorupto10mph
range.
IbelieveIsaidthat2mphisjusttooclosetocall.ImeanthisonamoreprobablethannotbasisandI
standbythatcomment.
ThecofISindeedaffectedbyvehiclespeed.Thereisanappreciabledifferenceatspeedsunder30mph
v.over30mph.Thatiswhyahighervalueisusedforthelowerspeeds.EX.dryleveltraveledasphalt
atspeedsunder30mphwouldyieldarangeof.60to.80g&over30mpharangeof.55to.70g.I
believetheNeptuneet.al.papercameoutaround1995.Thesmalldifferencesspokentointhepaper,
althoughtrueandaccurate,hasnotchangedtheworldofcollisionreconstruction.Mostexpertsprefer
toerrontheconservativesideandwishnotconfusejurorsobfuscateacasewithtechnicalissuesthat
havelittlerealimpact,suchas52v.54mph.Ifthecofwereconstantasyousuggest,whyarethere
significantdifferencesintestsdoneatthesamespeedsonthesamesurfaceswiththesamevehicles?
Usingtheaccelerationrate,avehicle'sspeedatanypointduringaskidcanbecalculated.Ifyouwere
todothis,youwouldseethatavehiclelooseslessspeedoveragivendistanceatthebeginningthan
attheendoftheskidmark.
Personally,otherthanatthedragstrip,Ihaveneverencounteredacofoverabout.85gonalevel,non
superelevatedroadway.
Youruseofthatgraphasabasisfordisagreementwithmycomment,"...askiddingvehicledoesnot
actuallydecelerateataconstantrate,butatalowerrateinthebeginningthanattheendofaskid
mark."surprisesmealittle.Ihavereadafairamountofyourpostsinthisandotherthreads.Youare
anumbersman,andrightfullyso.Thegraphyoushowhasnothingtodowithmotion(speedand
distance).Thereisnoscalarrelationshipbetweenyour"DecelerationRate"axis(whichisactually
AccelerationFactorbecauseitisexpresseding's)andthe"Time"axis.Becausethelasttwothirdsof
the'curve'fromabout1secondonappearsrelativelyleveldoesnotmeantheaccelerationwas
constant.Ifyouweretodothemathandcipherthespeedlostforagivendistanceatthebeginningof
askidandthenthespeedlostoverthesamedistanceattheendoftheskidIthinkmypointmay
becomelessopaque.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

1/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

OK,youmademegohuntupthedarnpaper.SinceyouhavetheSAEpaper,checkoutFiguresA3and
A4,whicharegraphsofaccelerationv.Speed.Theydefinitelyshowthevehiclespeedandcofarenot
uniform.Youmaywishtopostthesegraphsforotherstoruminateover.Additionally,pleasenotethe
writersstatement,"Forthepracticalpurposesofaccidentreconstructionthecofisindependentof
vehiclespeedseefigureA4."
IbelievethepapersupportswhatIhavesaid,thatcofisnotconstantanditisindependentofspeed.
WhatIhavelearnedbecauseofthisadventureandrereadingtheSAEpaper,isthatthecofisalsonot
uniformlyindependent.
RegardingfigureA12ofthepaper,whichyouhavepostedoneheavilyinstrumented1989Toyota
Camrywastested.Theinstrumentsrevealedthattherewasarangeoftransientbrakingtimeandthat
itchangedfromoneroadsurfacetoanother.Italsoappliedtothisspecificvehicle.Inordertofind
whatitisforothervehiclesadditionalinstrumentedtestingmustbedone.Tomyknowledge,thishasn't
beendoneinthelasttwelveyearsandIdoubtitwill.So,Iguesswearebacktoestimates.
PleasenotehowtheA12graphyouhavepostedshowsthelargestdifferenceat20mphanditsharply
narrowsat30mph.Above30mphthedifferenceisminimal.OfthethousandsofcollisionsIhave
investigated,thespeedsinvolvedthatbecomedisputedarewellinexcessof30mphandmostoftenin
the40to60mpharea.Therefor,yourwholeissuewithtransientbrakingissomewhatmoot.
Collisionreconstructionisarealworldsciencewithrealroads,surfacesandvehicles.Collisionsare
dynamicandDynamiccof'sarepreferred.AnExperimentalConstant(Derived)fromvehicle
instrumantationtestingissimplynotpracticalornecessary.
Lastly,motorswithdualdisconfront,singleontherearandshortbrakelinesareverylikelytocutthe
transientbraketimemeasuredintheToyotaCamrytoshreds.
Thankyoufortakingthetimetoreplytome.Itfeelsgoodtoexercisemyoldnoodle.NowifIcanonly
figureouthowyoudothatshrunkfontthingwhenquotingothers...

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted03/24/2007:1:17AM

Ihavecometoenjoyyourstyle!WedifferinsomeperspectivesbutIhaveconfidencethatyou
endeavortobeclearandfactualinyourargumentsandthat,Iassureyou,earnsagreatdealof
respectfromme.
Idon'tdisagreewithyouthattheformulas(themethodsyouemployandtheonethatIhave
articulated)leadtoproximatevaluesthatarealwaysdescribedas'atleast'values.Likeyou,Ihave
heardestimatesexpressedincourtasarange,thoughIhavealsoheardadefinitive'atleastxxMPH'
putforth.And,likeyou,Ihaveyettohearanybodyargueabouta2MPHdifference.Myintentionall
alonghasbeentoexplainthemethodsusedinanattempttogettheconceptsanddynamics
understood,nottoteachpeoplehowtobecomeexpertwitnessaccidentreconstructionists.
Iwishforyoutohelpmebetterunderstandoneofyourarguments,please.Yousaid:
quote:
Thereisnoscalarrelationshipbetweenyour"DecelerationRate"axis(whichisactuallyAccelerationFactorbecauseitis
expresseding's)andthe"Time"axis.Becausethelasttwothirdsofthe'curve'fromabout1secondonappears
relativelyleveldoesnotmeantheaccelerationwasconstant.

PerhapsImisunderstandtheterm'scalar'?
Thatchart,itseemstome,showsarelativelyconstantnegativeaccelerationrateofabout.70g'sfor
thelattertwothirdsofthecurvewhich,contrarytowhatyousaid,itseemstome,ispreciselywhatI
justdescribeditasbeing:arelativelyconstantaccelerationwhicharguesarelativelyconstantcof.
WhatamImissing?
Thatchartdemonstratestomethatthevehicleatalltimesbetween1.0secondsand2.8seconds
deceleratedatverycloseto.70g's.
Iamcompletelylostastowhatpointyouaretryingtomakeandconfoundedthatweapparentlysee
thatcharttoshowtwoverydifferentthings.
(Youclickonthe'InsertQuote'iconinthemenubarjustabove'Color'andthatplacesapairof
quotetagsintoyourmessage.Thensimplypasteyourquotebetweenthosetags.)

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Posted03/26/2007:8:21PM

Ihadthisallwrittenuponcebeforebutitmysteriouslydisappearedonmewhileawayfrommydesk
foracoupleminutes.Isthereatimer?

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

2/13

22/11/2016
Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

ThegraphyouusedfromthepaperusesaccelerationfactorfortheyaxisandTimeinsecondsonthe
xaxis.Thescale(distance)fromoriginfortheAccelerationfactorisnotcompatible(toscale)withthat
oftheTimeinseconds.Example:Theunit0.10ontheyaxisisnotthesameas0.1onthexaxis.The
valuesarenot"scalar".
Thismeanstheamountofvisiblevariationoftheresultantcurvecanbemisleading.Example:Ifyou
weretousea1inchdistancebetweentheAccelerationvalues,thecurvewouldappearmoreragged.
That'swhyIreferredtofiguresA3&A4intheSAEpaper.Thosegraphsuseadifferentscaleandresult
inamuchmoreraggedappearing"CharacteristicDecelerationCurve"andthataccelerationandCOF
arenotconstant.
Ifyouweretolookatadataprintoutfromaaccelerometeritwouldgivemeanandpeakgforce
values.
Regardlessofthescaleused,yourexemplargraphshowschangeintheaccelerationovertimenota
constant.ThatandthevelocitylostduringaskidisnotconstantoverdistanceisallIwastryingto
state.Well,OKandIdidtakesomeexceptiontoyourcourtroomandreconstructionistcomments.
Apparently,mywritingskillsdonotaccuratelyportraymywonderfullygregarious,magneticandsweet
personality.PleaseunderstandthatnomatterhowPClackingmywrittenword,IappreciateALLthe
workdonehereatAllThingsMotorcycle.Thisisaveryworthwhileendeavorandsurelyfurthersthe
causeofmotoreducationandsafety.
quote:
(Youclickonthe'InsertQuote'iconinthemenubarjustabove'Color'andthatplacesapairofquotetagsintoyour
message.Thensimplypasteyourquotebetweenthosetags.)

How'dIdo?Thanksforthetip.

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted03/26/2007:9:18PM

Itfascinatesmenoendthatyouhavechosento'duck'andtakeanirrelevanttangenthere,thoughyour
goodwillremainsnonsuspectwithme.Iseeitasanattempttoremain'standingtall',butIwill,
nevertheless,gobackandmakethepointweweredisagreeingaboutinawaythatleavesthereaders
theabilitytounderstandtheissueclearly.LetmesaytheessenceofthatagainIdonotinanyway
believethatyouaretryingtomisrepresentIbelievethatyouarearguingwhatyouhonestlybelieve
Irespectthatimmensely.
Theverticalandhorizontalaxisscalesarebothlineartheyshow,withoutdistortion,therelationship
betweendecelerationrateandtime.Choiceofscalesisarbitraryandinnowaychangesthe
presentationorinformationfrom'scalar'.(Itdoesnotdistort,nordoesitpresentinvectorform,and
demonstratesonlymagnitudes.)
Yousaid:
quote:
"...askiddingvehicledoesnotactuallydecelerateataconstantrate,butatalowerrateinthebeginningthanatthe
endofaskidmark."

Sohereismygraphagain:

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

3/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

TheissueiswhetherornotthatdecelerationrateisESSENTIALLYconstantasopposedto,asyou
claim,lowerathigherspeedsthanatlowerspeeds.Theaveragedecelerationrateduringthemajority
ofthestoppingtimepaintsahorizontal(dashedgreenline)line,notanupwardslopingline.The
differencesinmeasureddecelerationratesalongthataverageareNOTSTATISTICALLYSIGNIFICANT
andcaningoodfaithandinbestpracticesbereferredtoasbeing'essentiallyconstant'.
YouaskedmetopublishchartsA3andA4foryouasthey,youbelieve,supportyourcontention.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

4/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Mostsurprisingtome,yousaid:
quote:
OK,youmademegohuntupthedarnpaper.SinceyouhavetheSAEpaper,checkoutFiguresA3andA4,whichare
graphsofaccelerationv.Speed.Theydefinitelyshowthevehiclespeedandcofarenotuniform.Youmaywishtopost
thesegraphsforotherstoruminateover.Additionally,pleasenotethewritersstatement,"Forthepracticalpurposes
ofaccidentreconstructionthecofisindependentofvehiclespeedseefigureA4."

Ihaveboldfacedandunderlinedthepartofthequotethatissurprising.Itsays,quitespecifically,that
thecofisNOTafunctionofvehiclespeedrather,itisINDEPENDENTofspeed.
Onceamotorcycle,oranyothervehicle,beginsalockedbrakeskiditadoptsanessentiallyconstant
rateofdecelerationthatisequivalenttothedynamiccoefficientoffrictiontimesthegravitation
constant'g'.Theslightdifferencesinthatrateofdecelerationshowninthegrapharetheresultof
differencesinthedynamiccoefficientoffrictionfromonepartoftheroadwaytoanother,or
instrumentationerrors,ormaybeevenabitofharmonicinthevehicle'ssuspension.

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

Posted03/27/2007:5:14PM

Darn!Ihadanotherresponsenearlycompletedanditdisappearedonme.Itseemsnottobetime
related,ratherithassomethingtodowithmypagingbacktoyourresponseandthenforwardtoreturn
totheboxandmyresponseinprogress.
Imuststrivetobemoreclear.Iattemptedtoducknothing.Iwaspointingoutthateveninyour
originalgraphofcofv.timethereISvariation.Itisnotaflatline.Theaddedgraphsofcofv.speed
arethebestillustrationsofmyoriginalcontentionthatcofisnotthesameathigherspeedasitisat
lowerspeed.
quote:
TheissueiswhetherornotthatdecelerationrateisESSENTIALLYconstantasopposedto,asyouclaim,lowerathigher
speedsthanatlowerspeeds.Theaveragedecelerationrateduringthemajorityofthestoppingtimepaintsahorizontal
(dashedgreenline)line,notanupwardslopingline.Thedifferencesinmeasureddecelerationratesalongthataverage
areNOTSTATISTICALLYSIGNIFICANTandcaningoodfaithandinbestpracticesbereferredtoasbeing'essentially
constant'.

Yourwords"ESSENTIALLY","average","majority","NOTSTATISTICALLYSIGNIFICANT"and"essentially
constant"tellmethatweareessentiallyinagreementandourdifferencesarenotsignificant.
Theaddedgraphsarecofv.speed(whichiswhatIstated)andtheyabsolutelyprovemypoint.A3for
the20mphcurveshowsapeakof1.0,adropto.70andafinalpeakof.85.Onetheotherhand,the60
mphcurveshowsapeakof1.1,adropto.75thenagenerallyflatrunout.Ibelievethemeancofis
higherforthe20mphskidthanforthe60mphskid.Sincethesamevehicleandsurfacewereusedin
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

5/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

thesetests,Ibelievethissupportsmycontentionregardingcofdifferenceathighv.lowspeed.
A4illustratesdifferencesincofofroadsurfacesandalsoitsvarianceasspeedchanges.Example:
traveledasphaltcofat60mphisabout.73,at50mphabout.72,at40mphincreasesto.75,andat20
mphisover.80.Thisillustratescofisnotconstant.
Lastly,thequoteusedbyyoustating"independent"wasnotmywords.Itwastakendirectlyfromthe
SAEpaper.Independenttomemeansnotdependent,notconsistent,notuniform.
RWP

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Posted03/27/2007:6:26PM

quote:
Lastly,thequoteusedbyyoustating"independent"wasnotmywords.ItwastakendirectlyfromtheSAEpaper.
Independenttomemeansnotdependent,notconsistent,notuniform.
RWP

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Whatamasterfulwebofselfdeceitweweaveforourselves.
Ithinkwehavereachedaproductivelimithere.Thanksfortheengagement.

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Posted03/27/2007:6:57PM

Iagree.Untilnexttime,then.
Thankyouforsharingyourknowledge.

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted03/28/2007:10:24AM

Toaddalittle'realworld'practicalinformationaboutwhatyoucantellfromaskid,I'dliketomakea
fewcommentsaboutwhatthesimpleformulasdescribedanddiscussionsofarfailtoaddress.
Forexample,justwhatcanyoutellabouthowfastavehiclewastravelingfrom'skidmarks'leftifthat
vehiclehasABS?(Theyarenotthencalled'skidmarks'asABSpreventsactualskids.)Sincethese
marksareextremelyfaintascomparedtotraditionalskidmarks,itisalmostimpossibletoaccurately
determinewhentheybegin.Thus,thereissubstantialerrorinanyanalysisusingthe'length'ofthe
marksinallcasesleadingtounderestimatedspeeds.
Also,whatiftheskidstartsonaconcreteslabandcontinuesontoastripofasphalt(becausethetwo
stripsofpavementhavedifferentcoefficientsoffriction)?
Finally,aswasmentionedearlierinanexample,whatiftheskidmarkisnotreallyaskidmarkatall
andinsteadofbeingastraightlineitisacurve?Thisisactuallyayawcurve(sideslip)anditslength,
whilevaluableindeterminingwhenlossofcontrolofthevehicleoccurred,doesNOTyielduseful
informationrelativetohowmuchspeedwaslostduringthatsideslipmaneuver.(Buttheradiusofthat
curvecanyieldhowfastthevehiclewastravelingwhenitwentoutofcontrol.This,becauseavehicle
thatismovinginacurveisALWAYSACCELERATINGtowardthecenterofthecurveandthereisan
easilyunderstoodformulaforcalculatingcentrifugal/centripetalforceusingvelocityandradius.)

1olbull

Posted03/28/2007:11:24PM

NewMember
19Posts

Wellnow,thatlittlerestdidn'tlastverylong.Mr.Davis,youareathoughtprovokingpotstirrer,
indeed!

Tacoma,WA
USA

PrecollisionTiremarksleftbyasliding,nonrotatingwheelareskidmarkswhetherthebrakesusedto
stoptherotatingwheelwereABSornot.Theskidmarkisleftbytheheatgeneratedfromthetireand
roadsurfaces.ABSbrakesdocreateskidmarks,althoughlessprominentandfrequentlyinvarying
intensitycomparedtononABSmarks.ABSskidmarkscanbemeasuredandminimumspeedscanbe
calculated.Itisalmostimpossibletoexactlydeterminewhereanyskidmarkbeginssincethe
impendingmarkstartsfromnothingandgraduallygetsdarker.Theimpendingmarkalsofadesrapidly
withtime.Policeofficersaretrainedtomarkthebeginningofskidsasapbecauseofthis.Itisnot
unusualtoloose5feetormoreofvisibleskidmarkinhalfanhour.Thisiswhyitiscalledaminimum
speedestimate.Otherissuesofacollisionmaysupportahigherspeedestimateandwouldbe
explored.Surelyyoudonothonestlythinkskidmarksaretheonlyevidenceutilizedinacollision

Kawasaki
VN2000

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

6/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

investigation?AnyonewhoconsidersonlyaskidmarkinacollisioninvestigationISasubstantialerror!
Iftheskidmarktraversesdifferentsurfacesnoproblema.Calculatethespeedfromeachsurfaceand
combinethembaseduponthatgreekguywhocameupwiththesquareofthehypoteneusequalsthe
sumofthesquaresoftheoppositetwosides.
Askidmarkcanstartoutstraightandthenbecurved,period.ThecurvedpartisNOTayawmark.
Measurementwouldbemadealongthelengthofthemark.
Yawmarkshaveentirelydifferentcharacteristicsthanskidmarksandmaybecomeskidsifbraking
occursbutyawmarksarenotattachedtotheendofskidmarksasyousuggest.Yawmarksdonot
necessarilydeterminethelossofcontrolinfact,theremayhavebeennolossofcontrol.Yawmark
calculationsdonotyieldspeedlostbuttheydodetermineminimumvehiclespeedatonset.
quote:
(Buttheradiusofthatcurvecanyieldhowfastthevehiclewastravelingwhenitwentoutofcontrol.This,becausea
vehiclethatismovinginacurveisALWAYSACCELERATINGtowardthecenterofthecurveandthereisaneasily
understoodformulaforcalculatingcentrifugal/centripetalforceusingvelocityandradius.)

Theradiusofnopartofaskidyieldsnothingregardingspeed.
Determiningtheradiusofayawcanbeusedtothendeterminetheminimumspeed.Ifyouare
speakingofavehicleinayaw,itdoesNOTaccelerate,itdecelerates,unlessofcoursethethrottleis
used.
respectfullysubmittedeventhoughIbelieveyouknowexactlywhatyouaredoinghere.

JamesR.
Davis

Posted03/29/2007:6:28AM

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

LOL

Houston,TX
USA

ImadeasignificantmistakeinmyoriginalpostsoIeditedittomakeitmorecorrect.Idescribedthe
yawcurveasbeing'liketheendoftheskidmarkwehadearlierbeentalkingabout'(whereitwas
blackandcurvedinsteadofstraight)butfailedtothengoonandmentionthatitisactuallyaseparate
curveindicatingsideslip,notaskid.

Honda
GoldWing1500

Yes,yougotme.Muchofthatwasteaserdesignedtoinviteeithercontraryopinionordiscussion.

YouhavehadPrivateMessageswaitingtobereadforsevendayssoIwillmakethiscommentin
public.IexpectthatifyouaregoingtocontinuewithyourcontrarianpoststhatyouwillNOTtake
'shots'.
quote:
AnyonewhoconsidersonlyaskidmarkinacollisioninvestigationISasubstantialerror!

Isentirelytooclosetotheline,sir.Ifyouintendedthatpurelyasafuntweakyoumightnexttimeadd
asmileyofsomekind(
)todemonstratethatfact.NOBODYIknowofbelievesthataskid
markanalysisisallthereistoit,andinfactinmanyofmypostsIhavediscussedcrushanalysis,for
example,asbeingawaytozeroinonimpactspeedattheendofaskid(oreveniftherewasnoskid.)
ButTHISthreadspecificallydealswithwhatyoucanorcannottellfromtheanalysisofskidmarks.
FornowIwillnotcommentonthesubstanceofyourlastpostinhopesthatotherswilljoininand
eithercontributetheirownthoughtsorquestionsfirst.

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Posted03/29/2007:3:01PM

OfcourseIwasbeingtongueincheekandsarcastic.Theremarkwaspertinenttothoseoffering
themselvesupascollisioninvestigators.Ifeltmycommentwasprettymild,especiallyconsidering
folksherearemotorridersandnotcollisioninvestigators.Atanyrate,Ishallrespectyourcomments.
Ialsomustadmititwouldhavebeenbetterservedforarecongroup.
Iknownothingaboutaprivatemessagefeature.Pleaseenlightenme.

Posted03/29/2007:3:03PM

Ifoundtheprivatemessagelink.
Veryhandy.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

7/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

JamesR.
Davis

Posted04/01/2007:11:36PM

17258Posts
[Mentor]

ItlookslikeyouandIaretheonlyoneswillingtoposthereatthemoment.SoIwillcompletethe
random'potstirring'thoughtsforthereadersandtakeon(whichisnotthesameascomplete)someof
yourmostrecentposts.

Houston,TX
USA

YourknowledgeofABS'skidmark'analysisisvery,verygood.Ofcoursetheyareasyouarean
accidentreconstructionist.WhatI'dlikeourreaderstounderstandaboutthosemarksinclude:

Administrator

Honda
GoldWing1500

1)Theyare,asyousaid,veryfragileand'disappear/fade'rapidly.Thus,thelongerittakesbefore
measurementsaremade,thelessreliabletheyareandthemorelikelythatanyspeeddetermination
madeusingthemwillbeunderstated.(Thebeginningofthemarksfadefasterthantherestofthem.)
2)TheyareNOTskidmarks.Theyareincipientslipmarks,sometimescalled'scuffs'madejustprior
toskidconditions.Whyisthatimportant?Becauseskidmarksareusedtocalculatespeedscrubbed
usingthedynamiccoefficientoffrictionwhileincipientslipmarksusestaticcoefficientoffrictiontodo
thesamething.SinceABSpreventsanactualskid,callingthemskidmarksmisrepresents.
Againyouarecorrectthatwhentheroadwaysurfacechanges,sodoesthecoefficientoffriction.Thus,
youcombine(notadd)thespeedchangescalculatedfromeachdistinctlydifferentsegmenttoarriveat
thetotalspeedlost(energyconversion)duringthatskidincludingthespeedchangecalculatedasa
resultofanimpact.
Inyourresponseyoudecidedtochallengemyassertionthatwheneveryouareinacurveyouare
ACCELERATINGtowardthecenterofthecurve.Yourdistinction(claimingthatyouaredecelerating,
notaccelerating)isprobablyjustamisunderstandingbyyouofthatsentence.Thedefinitionof
centripetalforceisanaccelerationtowardthecenterofacurvetimesmass.Surelyyouagreethata
lateralACCELERATIONexistswhileyouaremovinginacurve?
Iwantedtocoveronemorethinghereinpublicforourreader'sinformation.Anaccident
reconstructionistisoftenaskedtoprovideanexpert'sinformed(andscientificallydefensible
calculation)estimateofthespeedofavehicleatthetimebrakingbegan.Youhaveleftuswiththe
opinionthatsuchanexpertwouldTYPICALLYprovidearangeofspeedsinhis/herresponse.Inother
words,inresponsetothequestion,'Howfastwasthatvehiclemovingatthetimeitsbrakeswere
applied?',youhavesuggestedthatthereconstructionistwouldputforthananswerofsomethinglike
'thevehiclewastravelingatarateofspeedofbetween50and60MPH.'Ihavesuggestedthata
reconstructionistshouldrespondONLYwiththelowerendofthatrange.Thatis,heshouldsay
somethinglike'thevehiclewastravelingnolessthan50MPH.'Whythedifferenceofopinionhere?
Idefendmyopinionwithasimplefact:Youcannotunderanyconditioncalculatethemaximum
(normal)speedthatvehiclewastravelingwhenitbeganbraking.Allofyourworkisdesignedto
calculatetheminimumspeeditmusthavebeentravelingatthetimetheskidmarksbegan(as
opposedtowhenbrakingbegan.)Byprovidingarangesuchasyousuggestyouarecategorically
claimingthatitwasnottravelingfasterthan60MPHandyetyouandIbothknowthatitcouldhave
beentravelingat100MPHandyoucouldn'tknowthatonewayoranother.Bystatingarangeyouhave
essentiallyguessedatamaximumspeed.Noattorneyispayingforaguessnomatterhowexpertyou
are.Andiftheopposingcounselasksyoutodemonstratehowyouarrivedatthemaximumspeedof60
MPHandhowcanyoubesurethatitwasn'ttravelingat,say65MPHwhenitbeganbraking,youcould
notrespondinaprofessionalmanner,norcouldyoudefendyourestimateexceptbysayingsomething
asweakas'itseemedreasonable'.
WehaveplayedwitheachotherindiscussingtheseconceptsandIhopethatinsodoingwedidnotput
offtheinterestofthecasualreader.
Thanksagainforengaging.

Niebor

Posted04/02/2007:9:15AM

ExMember

Notatall!Thisreaderisenjoyingthedialog!

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

Posted04/03/2007:3:55AM

Ithinkperhapsyouareateacher,soIdonotunderstandwhyyouattempttoobfuscateandconfuse
issuesratherthatkeepthemstraightforwardandsimpleaspossible.Themostimportantaspectofmy
workinthecourtroomisnottoimpressajurywithhowsmartIam,buttoexplaintheissuestothem
assimpleaspossible.
quote:

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

8/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
2)TheyareNOTskidmarks.Theyareincipientslipmarks,sometimescalled'scuffs'madejustpriortoskidconditions.
Whyisthatimportant?Becauseskidmarksareusedtocalculatespeedscrubbedusingthedynamiccoefficientoffriction
whileincipientslipmarksusestaticcoefficientoffrictiontodothesamething.SinceABSpreventsanactualskid,calling
themskidmarksmisrepresents.

Bothprecollisionskidsandpostcollisionscuffmarksaremadebyawheelnotrotatingandsliding
regardlessofthebrakesystem.IdisagreewithyouthatABSbrakemarksarenotskidmarks.Abs
senseswhenthewheelstopsrotatingandskids.Itthenreleasesthewheeltorotateandregain
traction,thenreappliesthebrakes,etc.etc.Theirmarksarenottreateddifferentlyinminimumspeed
calculations.IwouldbeinterestedinreadingthecollisionreconstructiontextorevenSAEpaperthat
supportsyourcontention.
Althoughtechnicallyallinclusive,thetermscuffmarkisgenerallyusedinthedescriptionofapost
impactskidorofacriticalspeedscuff.Ihaveneverseenanymarks,incipientornot,producedbya
staticvehicle.Althoughittakesmoreforcetoovercomestaticfrictionthandynamicfrictiononthe
samesurface,Iseenopracticalreasontosplithairsoverthisregardingtheminimumspeedestimate
ofamovingvehicle.Thevehiclewasmovingwhenitmadethemarksandthecofusedintheskid
calculationisdynamic,regardlesswhetheritcomesfromadynamictest,fromatableorfroman
estimate.Expertopinionsmaydifferalittleregardingcofvalue,butitshouldnotmakemuch
differenceinthespeedestimate.Collisionreconstructionisnotaperfectscienceanditdoesnot
produceperfectanswers.
Ididnotsayaddthespeeds.Isaid,thesquareofthehypoteneusequalsthesumofthesquaresofthe
oppositetwosides.Iassumeditwouldbeunderstoodthatthisisthesameasthesquarerootofthe
sumofthesquaresoftheoppositetwosides.
Becausewhileinayaw,thevehicleisnowmovinglateraltoitsoriginaldirectionoftravelofcourseI
agreethatthereislateralaccelerationduringacriticalspeedscufforyawmark.Thevehicleisstill
decelerating.Again,whysplitthesehairs.Itwillhavenobearingonthespeedestimatesowhy
confusetheissues?Don'tforgetthesemarksaredescendingspirals,notarcsandtheydonothavea
constantradius.
Onemoretime,Incourt,Iofferaspeedestimate.Iamusuallypushedbyanattorneytogiveahigh
andlowrange.Youarecorrectthattheskidmarkanalysisandsubsequentspeedestimateproducesa
minimumspeedonlyhowever,thisismerelythestartofacollisionanalysis.Theensuingimpact,
vehicledamageandtraveltorestwillproduceahigherspeedand,dependingonavailabilityand
accuracyofdata,therewillsurelybeahigherrangespeedestimategiven.
Ireallyamnottryingtoplaywithyou,sir.Iamtryingtobroadenmyknowledgethroughanexchange
ofinformationwithfolksfromdifferentbackgrounds.Idonotwishtopontificate...ever.

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted04/03/2007:9:30AM

Calmdown.
IamNOTanaccidentreconstructionistandyouare.Ihaveacknowledgedthatyouareandthatyou
obviouslyknowyourstuff.
WhatIhavepostedarethingsaboutskidmarkanalysisthatIunderstandasalaymanwhohaslooked
criticallyatcontemporarymethodsusedbyreconstructionists.Icertainlycanbewronginmy
understandings,butIhavepostedthemhereforalltoseeandforyou,ifyouwish,tocorrectmeor
tolearn,asyousay.
Iamnotateacher.Iamaretiredbusinessman.MypreviousemploymentincludedbeingtheChairman
ofastartupsoftwarehouse,PresidentofaNationalBroker/Dealer,EVPFinanceofanOil&Gas
company,Directorofanationalsystemsintegrationhouse,andratheralotofyearswiththeIBM
Corporation.Butforthepast13yearsIhavebeenstudyingmotorcyclesafetyanddynamicsand
sharingtheresultsofmystudyherewithsomefriendsandvisitors.
Solet'slookatwhatseemstotriggeryournegativereactionsandseeifwecangetcomfortablewith
theinformationevenifourpresentationstylestendtosetusonedge.
IclaimedthatABSpreventsskidssothatanymarksleftshouldnotbecalledskidmarks.Some
actuallydocallthem'incipientSlipMarks',othersdocallthem'scuffs'.Notall,byanymeans.
What'sthedifferencebetweena'skid'anda'slip'?Justpriortoatireskiddingitbeginsslipping.That
is,duringaggressivebrakingsomepartofthecontactpatchagreaterandgreaterpartuntilaskid
actuallybeginsisnolongersimplyrollingoverthesurfaceoftheroadwaybuthasbrokenlooseand
isslippingwhiletherestofthecontactpatch(theleadingedge,Ibelieve)remainsatfulltraction.
Whilethisishappeningthetireleavesafaint'incipientslipmark'andwhenthatcontactpatchhas
finallylostfulltractionandisentirelyslippingitisactuallythenskiddinganditleavesasolid,black,
skidmarktodemonstratethatfact.
ItseemsreasonabletometocalltheDISTINCTLYdifferenttracemarkingsduringanincipientskidas

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

9/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

'incipientslipmarks'andthosethatareactuallytheresultofskiddingas'skidmarks'.
NowABSisspecificallydesignedtopreventatirefromskidding.ThereareNOSOLIDBLACKmarksleft
onthegroundwhileaggressivelybrakingwhenABSisactive.
InseveralofthemessagesinthisthreadIhaveshownadecelerationratetracewhichwasdeveloped
usinganaccelerometerandshowingthethebehaviorofavehiclewhile'panicstopping'.

Sincethevastmajorityofthatgraphshowsaskiddingtireandduringthatskidthedecelerationrate
variedaboutthedynamiccoefficientoffriction(dashedgreenline),itmakesperfectsensetousethat
coefficientinordertocalculatetheamountofenergyconversionhappeningduringthattime.
ButanABSequippedvehicleNEVERskidsitstires.Thoughthisisnotanactualaccelerometerderived
chart,IproposethatifonewerecreateditwouldlikethisThatis,itwouldlookliketheredlinesI
addedinsteadoftheblacklinesofaconventionallockedbrakeskidchart):

SincetheentirepurposeofABSistokeepthewheelfromskidding,andsinceweallknowthat
thresholdbrakingresultsinquickerstopswithshorterdistancesthandoesalockedbrakeskid,Itakeit
thatyouwouldagreethatthepreponderanceofthe'skidmark'wouldvaryroughlyaroundthenew
dashedgreenline?Thatisverynearthestaticcoefficientoffriction,isitnot?
ThoughIDONOTchallengeyourassertionthatnoreconstructionistmanualadvisesusingthestatic
coefficientoffrictioninsteadofthedynamicone,IDOclaimthatusing'traditionalanalysis'ofthat'skid
mark'INVARIABLYresultsinUNDERSTATINGtheactualspeedofthevehicleattheonsetofbraking.
Whyisthat?Fortworeasons:1)thebeginningoftheABS'skidmark'ishardtodetectand2)the
coefficientoffrictionusedisthewrongone.
That,ismerelyalayman'sopinion,ofcourse,butitwouldbeinterestingtohearyouchallengeit.
Iusedthephrase'Isalwaysaccelerating'whendescribingavehicleinacurvebecausethatis
absolutelytrue.Thevehiclesspeedcouldremainabsolutelystableyetitwouldstillbeexperiencinga
centrifugalforceandTHATistheresultoflateralACCELERATION,no?Ievenwroteatiparticle(DELTA
V)thatexplainedthatfact.Thepurposeofthatarticleandofpointingoutthatfactistohelpour
readersunderstandthatevenwithoutchangingthrottlesettings,byvirtueofridinginacurveyouare
consumingmoretractionthanifyouwereridinginastraightline.ItwasNOTaplayonwords,sir.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

10/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Asto'playing'withyouImeantitinafriendly,camaraderieway.Wehavebeenjoustingwithout
intenttokillorharm.

1olbull

NewMember
19Posts

Tacoma,WA
USA
Kawasaki
VN2000

Posted04/03/2007:3:47PM

Thankyouforthewonderfulpost.Iwouldhavebetmoneyonmyteacherguess.Inowstandeven
moreimpressedwithyourmindandknowledge.Iwasandamnotexcitedorangry.Ihavepondered
thereasonswhymywritingseemstoinferthis.Ithinkperhapsmyownteachingandtestimony
experienceoverthepast35yearshasmademyapproachtoodirectiveandnotconversational,where
thereisanequalexchange.Ohyes,didIhappentomentionIamaretiredcop? Ishallworkonthis.
IAMenjoyingthisexchangeandIamindeedlearningthingsasresultofyournonreconstructionbiased
interpretations.Thanksforsharingthepersonalinformation.
Inmyworld"slip"meansarotatingwheelthatisalsoskidding.Suchasthesideslipangleofaturning
vehicle.Therearethreethingsadynamicwheelandtirecandorotate&notslide(tireprint),not
rotate&slide(skidmark)androtate&slide(yawmark).Theseconditionsarethecriteria.Threshold
brakingandABSattemptstokeepthewheelandtireatthepointofskidwithoutactuallyskidding.In
realitythisisimpossibletodo,buttheconceptisagoodone.(Copsusedtobetrainedinthreshold
brakingandwhenABScameoutonthepolicevehiclestheyweretheworstatadaptingtoABSand
muchretrainingwasnecessarytogetthemtostompthepedalandjustletthecomputerdothework.)
Sameashydraulicbrakes,ABStiremarksaremadebythewheelnotrotatingandsliding.TheABS
systembacksoffandallowsthewheeltorotate(regainingtraction)thenthebrakesarereapplied.This
reducestheheatproducedcausingthemorefaintandsometimespulsatingmark.Becausethemarkis
essentiallyproducedbyawheelnotrotating,itisalsointerpretedasaskidmarktherefor,Iwould
submitthatABSdoesnotpreventthewheelfromskiddingandblackmarksareindeedcreated,albeit
lighterduetothebrakesreleasing.
Allskidmarkbeginfaintandenddarkerduetotheincreaseofheat.Themechanismcausingtheloss
ofthebeginning,orimpending,portionofskidmarksisthesameforhydraulic,airorABSbrakes.
Weighttransfergenerallycausesfrontwheelskidstobemoreprominentthanrearwheelskids.Thatis
whytherearmarksoftenappeartohavebeganinthesamelocationasthefrontmarks.
TestshaveshownthatABScanimprovecofslightly,buttherearealsocircumstanceswherethey
producelesscofthannonABS.IwouldexpectthepositivedifferenceofABStobeintheorderof.05g
andnottotheextentof.15gassuggestedbythe.70gto.95gdifferenceshowninyourgraphs.When
ABScameoutitwastoutedasthebestthingincollisionpreventionsincethesteeringwheel.Thedata
soonrevealedthisclaimtobeuntrue.ABSdidnotreducecollisions,BUTitdoesallowforsomesteer
inputbroughtonbyitsonoffnatureandthishasundoubtedlyhelpedtomitigatetheseverityof
countlessimpacts.
Inregardstoyourlateralaccelerationmotives,Itotallyagree.Yourpresentationofthefrictioncircle
wasawesomeinitscontent,succinctnessandclarity.WhennextIneedtopresentit,I'lllikelyreferto
it(readsteal).

JamesR.
Davis

Administrator
17258Posts
[Mentor]

Houston,TX
USA
Honda
GoldWing1500

Posted04/17/2007:7:02PM

Ithinkweneedtoletthereadersknowthatwehavebothbeenmakinganassumptionthatbraking
efficiencywas100%whenwetalkedaboutdeterminingthespeedatthetimebrakingbeganby
analyzingskidmarks.
Whenareconstructionistsayssomethinglike'Thespeedattimeofbrakingwasatleast65MPH.'based
onhisanalysisofaskidmark,hewillalsospecifywhatvariablesheusedinhisanalysis.Wealready
knowthathewillspecifywhatcoefficientoffrictionwasused,thelengthandqualityoftheskidmark,
collisionspeed,ifany,andthequalityofthetires.
OnemorethingthatheMUSTspecifyinorderforhisanalysistobecredibleishowefficientlythe
brakeswereusedduringthetimeoftheskid.Ifhesaidthatheassumedthatthebrakeswereused
with100%efficiencythenheissayingthatBOTHthefrontandrearbrakeswereusedatorbeyond
theirabilitytolockthespinningwheel.Ifheusedanumberof40%orlessthenheissayingthatonly
therearbrakewasbeingused.
Whyisthatimportant?Becausethereisnodoubthowmuchenergyisbeingconvertedduringaskidof
arubbertirebutthereremainsagreatdealofdoubtabouthowmuchbrakingenergyisbeing
convertedbyanonskiddingtire.Becauseofweighttransfer,themaximumpossibledecelerationrate
thatamotorcyclecanattainisabout0.4G's.Ifthereartireskids,however,about25%ofthatrateis
lostsothatduringtheskidthedecelerationratecouldbenohigherthanabout0.3G's.Butifthe
dynamiccoefficientoffrictionisfoundtobe0.7andyouusethatasthedecelerationrate,clearlyyou
willcomeupwithaspeedatstartofbrakingVERYMUCHHIGHERthanitactuallywas.
AnexamplewillshowyouwhatImean.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

11/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Assumeaskidmarkisfoundtobe169feetlongandthatthedynamiccoefficientoffrictionwas
determinedtobe0.75,thenifthemotorcyclemanagedtocometoacompletestopattheendofthat
skidmark(withoutacollision),andyouassumedan80%efficiencyinbrakeusage,youcouldproperly
claimthatithadbeentravelingatnolessthan55MPHwhentheskidmarkbegan.Butifthebiker
coulddemonstratethathisfrontbrakesweredisconnectedornonfunctional(or"Iforgottousemy
frontbrakeatall"),thenbrakingefficiencycouldnothavebeengreaterthan40%.Usingthatnumber
youfindthatthebikecouldnothavebeengoinglessthan39MPHwhentheskidmarkbegan.That'sa
HUGEdifferenceinresultsandexplainswhyyou,ifyouareadefendantinalawsuit,donotwantto
claimtobehighlyproficientinbrakingskills!

gershon

Posted09/22/2007:8:45AM

ExMember

quote:
7yearsagoamotorcyclecopshowedmehowtostop.Hesaidyouneedtolistenforyourtiresto"roar"andkeepthe
brakinginthatareatillyoustop.Beyondthatareaisskiddingandpriortothatareaisn'tfullbraking.
ThatadviceseemstofitwithwhatyoudescribeJames.Theroarwouldbejustbeforetheskid.
I'vebeenabletostopwiththeroarsound,butittakesalotofpracticetogoallthewayuptothatsound,butnot
exceeditintoalockup.MostpeopleIpresume,eveninparkinglotpractice,don'tgetallthewayintothetireroarand
thereforearenotstoppingasfastasispossible.
Thereisalotofbrakingleftevenwhenyouthinkyouaredoingagoodhardstop,ifyouhaven'theardtheroarthe
wholewaythrough.

Therewasafatalityinthisareatheotherdaywhenamotorcyclistrearendedsomeoneafterleaving
66feetofskidmarks,thenthearticlesaidhewasthrownfromhisbikeandthebikeslidintothecar.
SoIwasreviewingthisthreadwhenIfoundthisgembyNomadDan.
InmyparkinglotpracticeI'velearnedtostopinunbelievablyshortdistances.SoshortthatIwon't
mentionthemuntilIcandocumentthemoncamera.Let'sjustsaythatitismuchshorterthanthaton
theDMVtest.IkeepthinkingthatmaybeI'manticipatingthestopandthedistancemaybelongerthan
Ithink.
ButI'vebeenhearingthis"roar"whichIhearmoreasachatteringgrumble.ThefirsttimeIheardit,I
thoughtmyfronttirewasrubbingtheinsideofthefenderwhichisimpossibleduetotheconstruction
ofmyscooter.ThenIthoughtIwasskidding,butIwasn'tleavinganydarkmarks.
LastnightIgotachancetopracticethisontheroad.Agirlcamequitefasttothedrivewayofa
parkinglot.I'destimateshewasgoingabout25mphintheparkinglotandshestoppedquicklyatthe
curb.IsawherveryearlysoIwasneverinanyrealdanger.Iwasgoing35mphandslowedquickly
from35toabout15mph"intheroar."AtthatpointIsawshewasn'tgoingtocontinueintheroad.If
shehadpulledoutIcouldhavestoppedwithplentyofroomtospare.
Ihavealotofpeopletothankformakingwhatcouldhavebeenadangeroussituationintoaminor
adjustment.Thepeopleinthissiteforemphasizingmaximumbraking.DavidHoughforexplaing
increasingthepressureonthefrontbrakeastheweighttransferstothefront.MyMSFinstructorsfor
teachingmaximumbraking.Andallthosepeoplewhodidn'tstopforshowingustheconsequencesof
notlearningthisimportantskill.
Somehavementionedpracticingmaximumbrakingonceayearoronceamonthorso.It'saskillI
losequickly,soformeIprefertodoitonceortwiceaweekinaparkinglot.Whenthetimecameto
useit,it"justhappened."
NoticeIusethetermmaximumbrakinginsteadofpanicstop.Thechangeinthetermisintentional.
MaximumbrakingissomethingIpracticeandIfeelthatIknowit.Apanicstopisapplyingthebrakes
ashardastheycanandhopesforthebest.Inmyopinion,panicstoppingisanoxymoronastheyoften
don'tstopsafely.
(editedtochangewordinginasentences)

Tburd

SeniorMember
476Posts

Waukesha,WI
USA
Suzuki
BoulevardS50

Posted09/22/2007:10:18PM

Gershon,
Ihopeyouhavetimetodoavideoonbraking.It'salsogoodtohearasuccessstoryconcerningthe
carintheparkinglot.Againitseemsthatthereisreallynosubstituteforpractice,practice,andmore
practice.
NowI'mgoingbacktothebeginningofthisthreadandseeifIcandigthroughsomeofthistechnical
stuffandunderstandwhattheseguysaretalkingabout.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

12/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Regards,
Mike
Page: 2

of3

DiscussionTopic

PreviousPage|NextPage

JumpTo: SelectForum
AllThings(SafetyOriented)Motorcycle
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.56seconds.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=2

MasterStrategyGroup

13/13

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

Latest 1080p Hd 2.7" Lcd

...

Today's
Deals

Shop Now

13.99

(Pleasevisitoneofouradvertisers)
Nodonationsorsubscriptionsarerequired
Subscriptionchoices:
OR

AllThings(SafetyOriented)Motorcycle
Home

Profile

$2.00permonth

Register
Help

ActiveTopics

MostRecentPosts

Username:

ActivePolls
ActivityHistory

Members

Search

Glossary

SafetyTips

Password:

BoardKarma=40(3488positiveof3870
votesis40%ptshigherthananeutral50%)
SavePassword
ForgotyourPassword?

Youcan

Obtain

theentirecollectionofSafetyTiparticlesina33MegabytePDFPortfolio

AllForums
MotorcycleSafety
Physicsandthetheoretical
Skidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink
PreviousPage

Member
jeffareid

DiscussionTopic

Page: 3

of3

Posted10/27/2007:3:50AM

JuniorMember
45Posts

Ifnothingelse,I'velearnedfromthisthreadthatit'sbesttonotleaveanyskid
marks,soI'llpratice"safebraking"fromnowon.

LagunaHills,CA
USA

Regardingthecoefficientoffrictionverusspeed,someofthishastodowiththe
qualityoftires,althoughIdoubtthatanyreasonblymotorcycletirewouldbean
issue,unlessDunlopstillmakestheK70tireswiththetrucklikehardcompound.

Suzuki
Hayabusa(2001)

Inthecaseofacartireswithalowheatrating,onaheavycar(likeaBuick
Roadmaster),thetireswouldprobablyheatupquiteabitiflockedupat60mph,
withthefrictiondroppingdramaticallyovertimeasthetirescook.
OnepotentiallyinterestingtypeofcarwouldbetheToyotaPrius.It'sa"brakeby
wire"car,simplyrechargingthebatterywhenbraking.Myguessisthatevenwith
apanicstop,thePriusisnotgoingtolockupthetiresorleaveanyskidmarks,
asthecomputerprobablyhasanaccelerometerand/orwheelsensorsandlimits
thebrakingforce.
Butthenagain,thisisamotorcycleforum.IknowIdon'tusetherearbrakeina
hardstop,isthiscommon?Ifso,Iwouldsuspectthattherewouldbevirtuallyno
skidmarks,otherthanapossibleinitialchirpmarkbeforetheweighshifttothe
fronttire.

rioguy

Posted05/23/2008:7:46AM

ExMember

ThispostisintheformofaquestiontodetermineifI'mpracticingcorrectlyand
shouldnotbetakenasthe"correct"waytodothings.
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=3

1/2

22/11/2016

AllThings(SafetyOriented)MotorcycleSkidmarkstellmorethanyoumaythink

IliketopracticebrakingthedaybeforeIgetnewtires.Imayaswellputwhat
treadremainstogooduse.
Itseemstome,fromthefirstpostinthisthread,thatapersonshouldstriveto
leaveincipientskidmarksfortheentirebrakingperiodasthiswillresultinthe
maximumbrakingpossiblewithoutinducingadangerousskid.
AftermypracticeIhadtheskidmarksshowninthisvideo:
http://www.youtube.com/user/gershonbenfranja
Myconclusionisthatinsteadofmeasuringstoppingdistance,apersonshould
insteadexaminetheirincipientskidmarkstoseeiftheyareattainingthebest
stoppingdistancepossible.
Myquestionisthis:"Isitsafetopracticethiswayatspeedsofabout20mph?"
Andalso:"Isthissomethingapersonshouldworkupto?"
Page: 3

of3

DiscussionTopic

PreviousPage

JumpTo: SelectForum
AllThings(SafetyOriented)Motorcycle
Thispagewasgeneratedin0.27seconds.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4485&whichpage=3

MasterStrategyGroup

2/2