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1. High Powered New Explosive Developed (5 replies)

2. Spontaneous Transformation of TATP to DADP Using Certain Acid Catalysts (13 replies)
3. Azo-Clathrate Primaries: A modification. (5 replies)
4. H2O2 & Tang? (26 replies)
5. First atomic bomb diagram (4 replies)
6. Should I upload Machining Simulation Software? (1 replies)
7. Tmdd (10 replies)
8. Extracting Lead Styphnate from .22's with acetone (9 replies)
9. Study on the Parameters Affecting Acetone Peroxide Synthetic Yield (13 replies)
10. Comparative study of OTC Acetone in AP Synthesis (5 replies)
11. Railway Torpedos & Boyhood Memories. (6 replies)
12. ANL-Ascorbate (3 replies)
13. Vacuum effect from Projectile (2 replies)
14. Micro-Explosions When Hitting Two (Unmodified, Off-The-Shelf) Hammers Together (11 replies)
15. H2O2-free AP (13 replies)
16. Explosive thermite? - Need some helps (4 replies)
17. Exotic rocket fuel as explosive? (17 replies)
18. Peroxide Watergel Explosive (2 replies)
19. Copper Carbide (5 replies)
20. AN and Propane? (4 replies)
21. Lead Azide Big Crystals (4 replies)
22. Tetraacetone Tetraperoxide (11 replies)
23. NC/NG/NM/NH4 stabilized Detonator (6 replies)
24. A Noob's Success with AP... (15 replies)
25. Nitrocellulose main query. (51 replies)
26. Lead Styphnate as primer to Picric Acid (Questions) (11 replies)
27. Hexanitroethane (8 replies)
28. Sensible Sythesis, or dangerous dud? (1 replies)
29. Nitration of Hydroquinone (2 replies)
30. Nitration of Elmer's Glue (Polyvinyl Nitrate) (40 replies)
31. Another spontainious detonation mixture and safty lesson (2 replies)
32. Tetraazidomethane (0 replies)
33. Nonex (4 replies)
34. Just purchased (9 replies)
35. AP Pellets (37 replies)
36. AP Yields (35 replies)
37. questions about KClO4 (11 replies)
38. Triethanolaminetrinitrate (TEATN) Synthesis (1 replies)
39. Trinitroethanol Synthesis (1 replies)
40. Need fish bomb help (22 replies)
41. Tris(nitromethyl)amin, The Way from NTA (11 replies)
42. Nitrogen Sulfide - Alternative Preparation (3 replies)
43. Picric acid question (7 replies)
44. Lead Styphnate Preparation (0 replies)
45. Oxygen/Acetylene (29 replies)
46. Yellow powder (75 replies)
47. MDC (Mild Detonating Cord) (3 replies)
48. A lot of interresting AN-Mix explosives ! (1 replies)
49. NJ3 with potassium jodine (7 replies)
50. Anfo-k (63 replies)
51. Annm + H2so4 (5 replies)
52. Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN) (5 replies)
53. Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid (ADCA), Analogs and Derivatives (2 replies)
54. Decomposition of Silver Acetylide/D-Salt (13 replies)
55. The best ignition for a fire bottle (23 replies)
56. Acetone Peroxide Malfunction(?) (24 replies)
57. Interesting "explosive" reaction? (2 replies)
58. Diethyl Ketone Peroxide (2 replies)
59. Shock tube detonator (9 replies)
60. Products of recrystallising AP with other explosives? (13 replies)
61. potassium picrate from potassium salicylate (4 replies)
62. Making acetylene gas (2 replies)
63. Ferrates of any pyrotechnic use ?? (2 replies)
64. "concentrated" peroxide (3 replies)
65. Copper Fulminate (10 replies)
66. Is IN3 an explosive? (5 replies)
67. How to make H2N2O2? (7 replies)
68. Explosive Falsities (69 replies)
69. Unbeliavable AP misfire (22 replies)
70. Fun snaps/ throwdowns (21 replies)
71.
72.
69.
70.
71. Method of storing AP indefinitely? (25 replies)
72. Explosive Napalm (9 replies)
73. AP warning story (9 replies)
74. Chromated Lead Azide (1 replies)
75. TATNB (Triazidotrinitrobenzene) (6 replies)
76. Isotope tagging of Ammonium Nitrate. (22 replies)
77. The Sandwich-Mine (0 replies)
78. Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide [Is This Possible?] (2 replies)
79. Primary Explosives a very important inquiry! (53 replies)
80. Lead Acetate for Primaries (7 replies)
81. silver acetylide problems (21 replies)
82. potasiumpikrate (16 replies)
83. Exploding targets (75 replies)
84. AP calculation program. (9 replies)
85. Azides from Hydrazine Salts GB128014 and GB129152 (4 replies)
86. barium chromate substitution (3 replies)
87. Nitrocellulose? Something wrong. (44 replies)
88. AP vs Flash (24 replies)
89. Experiements: Sodium Nitronate as a Primary (29 replies)
90. AP Experiment (17 replies)
91. exploding Bridgewire dets (73 replies)
92. Cyclotriacetone Peroxide??? (3 replies)
93. AP with CrO3? (3 replies)
94. Acetone Peroxide/Aluminium (24 replies)
95. Molten AP (32 replies)
96. my favourite primary explosive (197 replies)
97. Manganese Heptoxide / Xylene (21 replies)
98. Calcium hypoclorite and fuel oils (43 replies)
99. Danger Ap! (96 replies)
100. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO GET KNo3 IN HK ?? (1 replies)
101. Aceton Peroxide... Where??? (50 replies)
102. AP in Iraq (26 replies)
103. new primary explosives (8 replies)
104. Nitro Acetone Naphthalene Peroxide (16 replies)
105. questions about FAE's - Archive File (0 replies)
106. HMTD Question - Archive File (0 replies)
107. AP First-Timer - Archive File (0 replies)
108. nasty reaction - Archive File (3 replies)
109. Unwashed AP more sensitive? - Archive File (18 replies)
110. Stabilising NI3 - Archive File (0 replies)
111. NaClO3 + S + C - Archive File (0 replies)
112. Lampblack as a fuel/sensitizer - Archive File (0 replies)
113. Napta (liquid), AN, AL, Sodium Hypochlorate... Archive File (0 replies)
114. copper Acetylide (38 replies)
115. Black AP! (24 replies)
116. Trimer vs. Dimer (19 replies)
117. Washing HMTD and AP - Archive File (0 replies)
118. HMTD formula - Archive File (2 replies)
119. Who voted mekap off the island? - Archive File (0 replies)
120. better than bp - Archive File (0 replies)
121. KNO3? - Archive File (0 replies)
122. MAP gas - Archive File (7 replies)
123. Potassium and sodium chlorates - Archive File (0 replies)
124. Potassium Chlorate Explosives - Archive File (0 replies)
125. Cloudy HMTD solution - Archive File (0 replies)
126. HMTD in Al pipes - Archive File (1 replies)
127. peroxides and metals? - Archive File (0 replies)
128. AP swimming at top of water ? - Archive File (12 replies)
129. MF,HTMD and AP - Archive File (1 replies)
130. Can HMTD be a safe primary explosive? - Archive File (0 replies)
131. AP property's - Archive File (0 replies)
132. acid concentration limit - Archive File (2 replies)
133. Acetone Peroxide by volume yeild calculations - Archive File (0 replies)
134. AP crystals forming? - Archive File (0 replies)
135. Really not impressed with AP or HTMD - Archive File (0 replies)
136. Mouldable AP - Archive File (0 replies)
137. ther-peroxides? - Archive File (1 replies)
138. A Big charge of Ap - Archive File (0 replies)
139. Enneaheptite Pentanitrate - Archive File (0 replies)
140. something to try? - Archive File (2 replies)
141. Explosive flour - Archive File (16 replies)
142. Plastic explosive from HMTD - Archive File (0 replies)
143. Dimer or trimer ? - Archive File (0 replies)
144. Dibenzoyl Peroxide - Archive File (2 replies)
145. AP power comparison - Archive File (1 replies)
146. Ap ping pong ball putty first time heard of - Archive File (0 replies)
147. which is better HMTD or AP - Archive File (11 replies)
148.
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148. AP & Blue Tack - Archive File (0 replies)
149. ap pressing - Archive File (0 replies)
150. Anyone know whats happening here? - Archive File (0 replies)
151. LOX - Archive File (0 replies)
152. NI3 - Archive File (12 replies)
153. Improvised Propane/Oxygen Explosives - Archive File (0 replies)
154. the best fireball fuel? - Archive File (0 replies)
155. Fulminating powder - Archive File (8 replies)
156. H2O2 Explosive - Archive File (5 replies)
157. NaNO3 explosives - Archive File (0 replies)
158. The Beginner's Guide To Acetone Peroxide (650 replies)
159. Storing the AP (97 replies)
160. A simple question regarding perchlorates. - Archive File (0 replies)
161. Failed FAE - Archive File (3 replies)
162. Fuel to gas ratio - Archive File (0 replies)
163. stirring question - Archive File (6 replies)
164. AP containers - wtf? - Archive File (0 replies)
165. dissolved AP - Archive File (0 replies)
166. AP and BLACK POWDER - Archive File (1 replies)
167. Weird HMTD Reaction - Archive File (1 replies)
168. Detonation products of AP? - Archive File (0 replies)
169. AP question - Archive File (0 replies)
170. AP putty with ping pong balls - Archive File (0 replies)
171. Idea? - Archive File (0 replies)
172. ap and p.permanganate - Archive File (0 replies)
173. Whats a good impact sensitive low explosive - Archive File (0 replies)
174. Question on cratermakers - Archive File (14 replies)
175. Easiest to make low explosive - Archive File (3 replies)
176. sulfur - Archive File (0 replies)
177. Balloons! - Archive File (0 replies)
178. Black Powder - Archive File (0 replies)
179. Ammonium permanganate - Archive File (3 replies)
180. TACP - Tetramine copper perchlorate - Archive File (0 replies)
181. grenade compound - Archive File (0 replies)
182. KMnO4 and H2SO4 - Archive File (14 replies)
183. AFPO.....just another kewlish ex? - Archive File (1 replies)
184. Naphtha (liquid), AN, AL, Sodium Hypochlorate - Archive File (0 replies)
185. Na2CO3/H2O2 complex. (3 replies)
186. "power" of different explosives?? (21 replies)
187. Nitrobenzoyl Peroxide (8 replies)
188. Silveracetylide (1 replies)
189. HMTD synth. (19 replies)
190. AP How sensitive to heat? - Archive File (1 replies)
191. Dry HMTD - Archive File (0 replies)
192. Filtering AP - Archive File (24 replies)
193. Ionic Equations for AP - Archive File (0 replies)
194. pic of ap yield w/ baquacil - Archive File (0 replies)
195. benzoyl peroxide - Archive File (0 replies)
196. Best mixture for AP? - Archive File (0 replies)
197. How Much AP? - Archive File (30 replies)
198. AP Mixture - Archive File (0 replies)
199. Molten AP - Archive File (0 replies)
200. AP with 35% H2O2 - Archive File (0 replies)
201. Oxalic acid HMTD - Archive File (0 replies)
202. AP stir or shake? - Archive File (0 replies)
203. AP catalysts - Archive File (0 replies)
204. AP sensibility and recipie - Archive File (0 replies)
205. Uses for HMTD - Archive file (0 replies)
206. how far away is safe? (5 replies)
207. Copper Acetylide - Archive Thread (2 replies)
208. Collodion - Archive Thread (0 replies)
209. AP rocket fuel? - Archive file (1 replies)
210. Thing that you can make with "Acetone Peroxide" - Archive file (0 replies)
211. gas explosions - Archive file (55 replies)
212. CO2 bomb w/sterno - Archive file (0 replies)
213. Decomp of Acetone Peroxide, a journal article (43 replies)
214. Interesting idea for foam explosive (7 replies)
215. flash (1 replies)
216. Lead Styphnate suitable primary? (45 replies)
217. UK Acetone Peroxide Chemicals (3 replies)
218. Organc peroxides (4 replies)
219. Koktail "ARSOVA" (20 replies)
220. APAN as a primary for salutes and the like (11 replies)
221. Holy grail organic peroxide! (395 replies)
222. Wood stick - Archive (0 replies)
223. whoa, weird AP - Archive file (0 replies)
224. This Normal? - Archive file (0 replies)
225.
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225. transporting AP and HTMD - Archive file (7 replies)
226. Surely the solution isn't meant to be pink?!?! - archive file (0 replies)
227. PEROXYACETONE - archive file (0 replies)
228. PEROXIDES - Archive file (0 replies)
229. nitrocellulose - Archive file (0 replies)
230. Loudness Of Acetone Peroxide? - archive file (0 replies)
231. Drying AP - Archive file (0 replies)
232. Detonation? - Archive file (0 replies)
233. "cutting" Acetone Peroxide - archive file (0 replies)
234. Color - archive file (0 replies)
235. ...something went really weird with my AP....really wierd! - Archive file (0 replies)
236. ap sludge - archive file (0 replies)
237. Shokwave from AP - archive file (19 replies)
238. breakdown of ap putty - archive file (0 replies)
239. Pictures of AP or HTMD Crystals - archive file (0 replies)
240. AP+Picric Acid - archive file (0 replies)
241. AP Mishap - archive file (0 replies)
242. Ap IN FRIDGE NOW!? - archive file (0 replies)
243. Friction Sensivtive AP - archive file (0 replies)
244. AP crystals - archive file (6 replies)
245. ap catalyst to prevent or slow breakdown - archive file (0 replies)
246. AP + Sulphur - archive file (0 replies)
247. Volatility -archive file (0 replies)
248. plastic explosive -archive file (0 replies)
249. 3% compared to 6% H2O2 -archive file (53 replies)
250. Failed AP? -archive file (0 replies)

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251. AP manufacture..risk factor? -archive file (0 replies)

252. AP -archive file (23 replies)
253. AN Fertilizer -Archive File (0 replies)
254. NaCLO3/vaseline charge -Archive File (17 replies)
255. Calcium Hypochlorite explo -Archive FIle (1 replies)
256. APAN failure! (6 replies)
257. APrc lab:improvised lab procedures and chems (40 replies)
258. Lead Fulminate? (10 replies)
259. HMTD accident (33 replies)
260. detonator without a casing (2 replies)
261. Huge AP Crystals (54 replies)
262. My oxi-ap (13 replies)
263. Potassium & Ammonium Nitramide (3 replies)
264. Plastique from Righteous Revenge (4 replies)
265. HMTD Synth With Pics (102 replies)
266. ATF updates its list of regulated explosives... (14 replies)
267. nitro powder (8 replies)
268. Mix AP with...? (0 replies)
269. DDNP troubles (91 replies)
270. max yield for CTAP (23 replies)
271. Plastic bonded HTMD (15 replies)
272. New HMTD synthesis? (38 replies)
273. Flash powder measurments (2 replies)
274. tmdd (21 replies)
275. Cast acetone peroxide (33 replies)
276. Flash Without A Scale (17 replies)
277. Lead Azide (36 replies)
278. Napalm dilvery system (8 replies)
279. KMnO4 Flash-Powder (25 replies)
280. sulfuric acid from sulfur flour (2 replies)
281. prep of carbamide peroxide (6 replies)
282. Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide (166 replies)
283. Bullet Detonators (3 replies)
284. relatively safe detonators (11 replies)
285. NH3.NI3 with iodine solution... (19 replies)
286. AP solution evaporation -Increased Yields- (7 replies)
287. AP Plasticizer (122 replies)
288. H2O2 BP (15 replies)
289. Ammonipulver (5 replies)
290. The final flashpowder contest (68 replies)
291. Peroxide creme (11 replies)
292. Ceramic casings (12 replies)
293. Anyone know.. (20 replies)
294. Making Pyrodex Useful As A Lift Charge (9 replies)
295. Impact Detonator (10 replies)
296. Silver Azide (8 replies)
297. Re-crystilized? (18 replies)
298. Lead Picrate (35 replies)
299. Chorate - sulfur mixtures incompatible? (27 replies)
300. How to store BP (24 replies)
301. Flash Powder Info from Ebay (14 replies)
302. Best Aluminum for Flash? (59 replies)
303. My first attempt (38 replies)
304. nitrogentriiodide (17 replies)
305. Mercury Fulminate.. (101 replies)
306. Sugar Black Powder (68 replies)
307. 8 month old AP (24 replies)
308. Tannerite Exploding Targets (156 replies)
309. Black Powder, Density (5 replies)
310. Comparing AP and HMTD (87 replies)
311. Too much catalyst? (7 replies)
312. 'Safe' non-metallic detonator. (22 replies)
313. diff acetylene (12 replies)
314. Vitamin C and AP (21 replies)
315. Baquacil (31 replies)
316. AP wasnt created (27 replies)
317. whats the next step to take as a pyro after BP (9 replies)
318. Al (17 replies)
319. Caseless Detonator (11 replies)
320. Acetone peroxide - special instructions? (44 replies)
321. Black Powder (44 replies)
322. HMTD (365 replies)
323. Blasting caps... (69 replies)
324. Golden flash? (2 replies)
325. DDNP Synthesis (1 replies)
326. where can i get fuse in denmark (12 replies)
327. Radiator sealant?? (11 replies)
328. Military flash powder and a whole lot of water (4 replies)
329. oxygen/acetylene mixture (57 replies)
330. anode materials (32 replies)
331. "Power" of flashpowders (84 replies)
332.
330.
331.
332. First explosive? (3 replies)
333. Compression in firecrackers? (13 replies)
334. the chemistry of fulminating powder? (28 replies)
335. Info on Potassium Picrate (3 replies)
336. circular charges (4 replies)
337. Mercury Fulminate desensibilizing (17 replies)
338. "ANSO" instead of ANFO (9 replies)
339. Chemically Ignited FAE (42 replies)
340. Poor phone (5 replies)
341. Fuse?? (33 replies)
342. Silver acetylide - a word of warning (28 replies)
343. Tetrameric!?! (44 replies)
344. free nichrome wire (32 replies)
345. KNO3 (10 replies)
346. pressure question.... (14 replies)
347. electric spark ignition comps? (21 replies)
348. Dextrin (13 replies)
349. Flashes (5 replies)
350. My experiences with chlorate from bleach! (31 replies)
351. Al powder (2 replies)
352. Detonator, easy, save and storable (22 replies)
353. How do you set off your balloons? (16 replies)
354. AN uses other than explosive? (5 replies)
355. Triangle salutes (17 replies)
356. Calcium hypoclorite (20 replies)
357. KMNO4 source (34 replies)
358. how dangerous is flash (59 replies)
359. My Sp! (24 replies)
360. Gasless Time Delay Fuse (2 replies)
361. detonators (9 replies)
362. Powerful oxidiziers and reducing agents (29 replies)
363. NEW OXIDIZER (A PEROXIDE) (32 replies)
364. Inexperienced- Please Advise (9 replies)
365. Synthesis procedure for picramic acid (2 replies)
366. thermit bomb (20 replies)
367. getting Al the electrolytic way? (20 replies)
368. Mercury fulminate question (11 replies)
369. DDNP procedure (28 replies)
370. Lead Nitroanilate (5 replies)
371. Damn guys (5 replies)
372. Smokeless powder (13 replies)
373. washing ap (18 replies)
374. Potassium Chloride (6 replies)
375. Potassium perchlorate production (30 replies)
376. Hypothetical, alternative method to chlorate manufacture.. (9 replies)
377. saltpetre (22 replies)
378. Ex. putty (41 replies)
379. Asprin toSodium Salycillate (6 replies)
380. black powder manufacture (25 replies)
381. C6H3N3O9Pb (32 replies)
382. a little help here, please (18 replies)
383. The Great Hydrgen Salute Can Cannon (7 replies)
384. KMnO4 + S===}? (13 replies)
385. german blackhead al (13 replies)
386. AP toxicity (64 replies)
387. agnesium cord (33 replies)
388. Detonate flashpowders ? (91 replies)
389. WHERE TO GET kno3 from IN THE UK?? (29 replies)
390. 50%h202 (30 replies)
391. Whats the best way to grind up aluminum? (78 replies)
392. Favourite fuse (60 replies)
393. vitamin c flashpowder (43 replies)

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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Molten AP - Archive File
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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:11 PM

Morrigan
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 81
From : T h e N e t h e r l a n d s
Registered: OC T 2000
posted January 31, 2001 02:09 PM
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I heard that m olten A.P holds much more power compared to com pressed A.P because of the higher density. If this is true
than I guess that melting A.P into a copper/alu minum tube would m a k e a d a m n strong detonator. I know it would also make
a d a m n nice d e a t h t r a p b u t I c a m e up with a kind o f stupid (I think it s ound s quite Ke\/\/L) b u t pos sibly usef u l a n d relatively
s a f e way to do this. T he m eting point of A.P is 91 degrees Celsius, if Mega is correct. Theoretically you could bring some
water to a gentle boil over a h eat source with the detonator (a soft metal tube with A.P inside closed at one end by a plug
and at the other end by tissue paper and a thick layer of wax) tied to a rope hanging approxim ate ly 5-10, (the m o r e t h e
better) m eters above it, then rem ove the heat source, m easure the exact tem perature of the wate r which would be very
n e a r t o 1 0 0 , a d d s o m e ice to the water and when it reaches 93 deg. take a lot of distance and lower the de tonator into the
water with the rope while you are as many meters away as you feel to be necessa ry, safe from shrapnel. (It will be tricky to
m ake it come down e xactly in the water bath but you co uld place the detonator in a larger tube placed above it (the water)
to guide the thing down. I suppose that by the time you are ready to lower the thing the tem perature of the water b ath
would be about 91 deg. I would feel a lot safer doing th is than pressing it to a tube with m y h a n d s e x p o s e d t o a p o s s i b l e
b l a s t , I a m v e r y f o n d o f m y h a n d s y o u k n o w t h e d o w n s i d e i s t h a t t h e d e t o n a t o r w o u l d b e e x t r e m e sensitive afterwards , s o
no crimping, taping, dropping or whatever. It would be ris k y s o D O N T try this, I was just a a s s u m p t i o n . S o m e b o d y I k n o w
already heated a very sm all am ount of A.P that was about 3 weeks old over a Bunsen burner in an a l u m i n u m d i s h a n d i t B o i l e d
without detonating, exposing it directly to the flame cau sed im m ediate detonation!! This however does NO T m ean that ALL A.P
is insensitive to heat. He will try this soon, so tips and or comm ents would be very welcome.
B e c a u s e m y native la n g u a g e i s n o t E n glish I h a d s o m e difficulty explaining m y s e l f , I h o p e y o u ll un derstand what I m e a n t .
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Morrigan (edited January 31, 2001).]
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
Registered: JAN 2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You did a good job,i understood,but this is a ver unsafe idea. I have once saw in a dream AP that detonated by being directly
spra yed by o ne of thouse nifty steam cleaners, and also I have seen a demonstration in science class where a match was lit by
water vapors,so just because you boil it, does not m ean it won't go by heat.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y e n d o t h e r m (edited January 31, 2001).]
Morrigan
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 81
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I t s i n d e e d t r u e t h a t t h e H 2 O g a s / s t e a m directly above boiling water can reach temperatures far beyond 100 deg.C but I was
hoping that this wouldn t b e t h e c a s e b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e h e a t s o u r c e h a s b e e n rem oved and the water is slowly
cooling down, starting with the air above it. You could also use cooking oil instead, it does not heat m uch of the surrounding air
a n d d o e s n o t e v a p o r a t e v e r y m uch. However it rem a i n s a v e r y u n s a f e p l a n t h a t d e s e r v e s s o m e decent testing.
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 591
From : ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 01, 2001 05:10 AM
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I d r e a m d(Funny dream s whe all have ,,)that i have putt a little bit of Ap on a knife and hold it abo ve the flam e till it`s m elt
then it deton ated with a loud PAAANNGGG!!!!
Molted Ap is <> I dunnot think it`s a good idea to do this,,,PS Morrigan I have send you 3/4 e-m ails why tha %#*$ ! don`t you
reply back?
Are gonna buy the Nitrom etha ne from that shop?
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 <a href="http://www.section1.f2s.com " target="_blank">http://www.section1.f2s.com </a> Alot off Bom bs/
E x p l o s i v e s a n d H o m e made Weapons!!,,,Plus a <<Forum>>!!!
Microtek
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 194
From :
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I have also tried to m elt AP. I did it on an up-turned lightbulb, and later in a test-tube over a flam e . I n e v e r h a d i t d e t o n a t e
with the lightbulb, but it would go just about every tim e in the test-tube. An interesting thing was that nothing happened with
the glass test-tube.
Anyway, I'd reccomen d you pressed it instead.
If you are going to do this you'd need a large setup anyway, so just m a k e a h o m emade loading press in which a wooden do wel
i s a t t a c h e d t o a l e v e r . T h e n y o u c a n p u t u p a s h i e l d o f s o m e k i n d from b ehind which you can pull the lever. Besides when the
A P h a r d e n e d I ' m convinced there would be spaces in the mass because AP is so strongly crystalline.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From : England
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The thing with the solidified AP ist hat it would effectively be one giant super-crystal and extremely sensitive, Im agine if it
cracked!
PHILOU Zrea lone

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From : Brussels,Belgium,Europe
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Right; melting and solidifying a solid will result in large imbricated cristalls unless you use cristall g rows interacting substances.
Cristalls have a bad habit whe n they are big; they displays irregularities in the cristall patern leading to innerstress
regios....m uch m ore sensitive to friction, shock and hea t.
T h e d e t o n a t o r m ade by that process would be as sensitive and doubtfull to use as NH3NI3... I wou ld never handle such a
thing; will you?
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" L i f e t h a t d e a d l y d i s e a s e s e x u a l l y t r a n s m itted".
" C h e m istry is all what stinks a nd explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"

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M a m m ut
A new voice
Posts: 39
From : E s s e n , N R W , G e r m a n y
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Hi there,
i have AN and
Am m o n i u m p e r o x i d i s u l f a t ( N H 4 ) 2 S 2 O 8 . W hich
substances can i m ix with AP to m a k e t h e
explosion stronger???
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 233
From : the cretaceous period
posted February 02, 2001 06:00 PM
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its a q u e s t i o n o f o x y g e n b a l a n c e
d o n ' t m i x A P w i t h m a g n e s i u m o r a l u m inum however.
You could m ix AP with an equal am mount of Picric Acid or RDX
this is a dum b thing to do however seeing as it would decrease the power of the TNP or RDX
(but it would increase the power of the AP )
too m a n y p e o p l e o n t h i s f o r u m u s e a m ain cha rge (m yself included)
kind of off the topic, but if you want a really huge explo sion just m ake a couple pounds of Picric Acid or RDX (hard to do)
or go the easy way and make a few kilos of ANFO and detonate it with an AP detonator an d a TNP booster

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > How Much AP? - Archive File
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Mammut
A new voice
Posts: 39
From: Essen,NRW,Germany
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if i take 200mlAcetone and 250ml H2O2,how
much Ap does it bring (g) ???
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
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The question is a good one, however I would advise you to perform yield calculations yourself because it is never good to do someone else's math homework. Finding this info
on your own will go a long way to helping you in the future.
Unfortunatly for you this question can not be answered by anyone but you. Without giving us concentrations of reactants, what reaction conditions you want to use, and the
catalyst, the only way to answer this is to actually perform the reaction. I am not aware of any particular data from journals that gives a % yield. If you do a search here I bet
you will find alot of posts of people who have given how much they got, from there you can base your expected yield and run the calculation. If you want to know how to find
out a % yield just do an internet search on the topic
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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalomania"
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SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: the cretaceous period
Registered: OCT 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey mammut hows it going?
I won't critisize you because I know that you are smart when it comes to scientific stuff.
I conducted a test recently that determined the yield of AP when using 30% Hydrogen Peroxide.
I placed 8mL of 30% H2O2 into a 25mL graduated cylinder that was in an ice bath.
after letting it cool for a couple minutes I added 13mL of pure acetone and then added 1mL of 32% HCl and stirred the reactants for 3 minutes using a stirring rod.
After letting this sit for 6 hours there was AP up to the 9mL mark on the graduated cylinder this means that the volume of the AP is about 2/5 (two fiths) of the volume of the
reactants.
(this is before drying in the end I got 2/3 of a bottle cap full)
so it is usually 1/3 the volume of reactants
im guessing that it would be 10 times less if you were to use 3% H2O2 but im not sure.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Safetylast, have you tried the 6:1 ratio? 6 times as much acetone as pure H2O2. I did and got over 1/3 volume AP of reactants and that was with 6% H2O2! Should be an
amazingy yield with 30%.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
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i get the same amount of product n volume as the reactants togehter. I use 60ml 35% h202, 48 ml 100% acetone, and 20ml 28% HCl .I always get a very large yeild.
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Stone April 13th, 2003, 03:25 AM

I've been looking for a confirmed correct "recipe" for AP. Everytime I search, the answers and amounts are different. I just looked over something I had sitting around and
thought it might be useful :)
An old post from berchlor posted May 09, 2000 10:03 PM.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
First we look at the reaction-equation:
3 C3H6O + 3 H2O2 --> C9H18O6 + 3 H2O
Here is shown that we need 3 moles (102.03 grams) of Hydrogen peroxide (or 72.00mL) and 3 moles (174.24 grams) of Acetone (or 220mL) will yield 1 mole (222.24 grams)
of Trimeric acetone peroxide. This is an equimolar amount (equal # of moles). Note: the H2O2 shown in the equation is setting the example if you were to use 100%pure
H2O2, but mixing 100% pure H2O2 + acetone = BOOM! So then i divided the %-conc by the molar mass of 3moles of H2O2 to get some results in place of 100% H2O2:
50% H2O2 (should react exothermically): 204.06 grams (170.19 mL)
35% H2O2: 291.51 grams (261mL)

30% H2O2: 340.1 grams (305mL)
12% H2O2: 850 grams (809mL)
10% H2O2: 1,020 grams (985mL)
6% H2O2: 1,700 grams (1,666mL)
3% H2O2: 3,401 grams (What's the specific gravity of 3% H2O2?)
To 174.24 grams of Acetone (or 220mL). I divided the gram amount by the density of the solution to get the volume amount (in mL,cm3). the yield of trimeric acetone
peroxide in the reaction is 90% yield, that means that the other 10% of the reactants (H2O2, acetone) reacted otherwise or didn't quite react.
and to get the molecular weight or molar mass of a compound, you simpily add the number of atomic weights of the elements given in the chemical formula , for acetone
peroxide: 1 mole is 222.24 grams because the formula is C9H18O6, so.. the atomic mass of carbon is 12.011, the atomic mass of hydrogen is 1.008, the atomic mass of
oxygen is 16 (rounded up for convenience):
C (12.011)*9 + H (1.008)* 18 + O(16)*6 = 222.24g/mole, the g/mol means that there are 222.24 grams of Trimeric acetone peroxide in 1 mole!
I'm not sure if the other calculations i did were precisely correct according to chemistry, but it's my best calculations. The hydrochloric acid is meant to only serve as a catalyst in
this reaction, without a catalyst a reaction can not take place, or only proceeds very slowly! And since the yield is 90%, you should get something more like 200 grams TATP
(triacetone triperoxide) rather than 222.24 grams. 200 grams of TATP is enough to kill you if it detonates in the near proximity of you, Period. even less than 100 grams TATP
can do that..So use smaller amounts than i gave, like simplify them to meet smaller quantities, example: with the 6% H2O2 use 17.00 grams (16.66mL) to 1.74 grams of
Acetone (2.20mL). Something like that..
<hr /></blockquote>
[ April 13, 2003, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Stone ]
xyz April 13th, 2003, 03:30 AM

A lot of procedures use a large excess of acetone, I think this is due to it evaporating during the procedure.

Yeah, but people also say that excess acetone will dissolve some of the yield... Is there a good comprimise?
Has anyone experimented with small variations of acetone?
From the above amounts, i'm looking at

150mL - 60% H2O2
220mL - Acetone
15-30mL - HCl
Is more Acetone reommended? If so, how much?

Most people have 27-33%, so it would work out to be:
300mL - 30% H2O2
220mL - Acetone
15-30mL - HCl
Thanks.
[ April 13, 2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Stone ]
static_firefly April 13th, 2003, 07:46 AM

A question out of left field. How much AP do you consider "safe" to carry around. People say im a little cautious when i carry armor in between me and a 5gram charge.
[ April 13, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: static_firefly ]
darkdontay April 13th, 2003, 08:32 AM

What are you carrying it in? I would think that if you had it in a backpack, or shoulder bag, also though have it inside a bag or container full of sand.. Basicly something to
absorb the energy from detonation should it go off.

I don't think carrying ANY amount is safe... But it's a risk i'll take to enjoy my hobby :)
I wouldn't take more than a loosely filled film cannister but i'm still scared carrying that after seeing what it can do to timber, concrete, and steel...
How many grams would that be about? I don't have scales.
darkdontay April 13th, 2003, 12:53 PM

I would have to second the agreemnt that transportaation of exploives, let alone home manufactured explosives is not a good idea. Though the time comes up very often
where you do need to transport it.. Personaly i do not look at my self as any model to follow. I just try and never have it directly next to me... So if it every does go off I will
not look like a over cooked ham.
It really would help us to know just how are you taking 5grams?
I could only suggest to pack absorbent materials around it maybe palce it in a film can and then that double ziplocked and then palce that in a gallon ziplock container and fill it
with water then, add safety things form their.. These are just thoughts... I usualy deal with my stuff on site where I have made it..
Anthony April 13th, 2003, 02:37 PM

Water isn't an absorbant material. It would transfer the shockwave to you much more effectively than an equivilent distance of air.
kingspaz April 13th, 2003, 03:00 PM

pumice stone abosrbs the shockwave. i would say sponge probably would aswell since its structure is similar.

Hmmmm.. I gues I did not see it like that, well damn. I was trying to think of somethign that would absorb the shockwave.. I had thought of and mentioned sand, when I
mentioned water I forgot or had a brain fart about even sound traveling faster underwater, I belive it is somethign in the realm of 4-6x faster... woops...Sorry about that.
Still what would you guys suggest as a could way to transport it.. Now the EOD seem to love their little tin cans.. but must of us are not able to make or what to make
something like that..
Who would you guys consruct one?
Efraim_barkbit April 18th, 2003, 09:59 AM

Since this thread started with a question about how much AP you could get, so...
I have just made my first AP, and since it was my first time, I decided to make it in real small scale.
I used a small spice jar as container to make it in.
The ingredients were:
30% hydrogen peroxide
100% acetone
Battery acid (boiled to half its volume.)
All the chemicals had room temperature, except the acid, it had about 5 degrees Celsius
I poured in 20ml H2O2 in the jar, and added 15ml of acetone.

Then I added 10 ml acid. (All volumes is estimated)
I read much about the mixture being hot and such things, but the temperature in mine did not rise noticeably.
Anyway, the mix turned cloudy and after 20-30 minutes, it got like a foamy layer at the top and at the bottom. The middle was much clearer.
Then I waited until the next day. The jar was full (up to where the surface of the liquid had been the other day) with the foamy, now a bit denser substance.
After I washed and dried it I put it in a film canister and it was little more than 1/3 full. (Dont know how many grams it was)
You guys that know this procedure, how much is expected to get from these volumes of liquid? Did I get normal amount, or can you get even more? Like almost solid or
something.
By the way, any of you had AP go BOOM by itself?
knowledgehungry April 18th, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Efraim_barkbit
By the way, any of you had AP go BOOM by itself? [/B]
Do you mean detonate? Please be more specific when talking about the behavior of explosives. Do you mean has AP ever detonated without heat or shock? Or do you mean
can AP detonate without a booster? I have never had AP detonate unprovoked, although i'm sure it could, especially if acid is unneutralized. AP will detonate without a booster
as it is a primary.

Yes, AP can and has detonated without obvious stimulation. There always is a reason it detonated, but the stimulus can be subtle and unexpected.
Efraim_barkbit April 18th, 2003, 06:02 PM

what I meant was "Have any of you had AP detonate unprovoked?"
I tested mine and it was in fact less shock sensitive than i thought, I had to hit it quite hard with a hammer for it to detonate, and what a BANG, I used a amount of about
5x5mm, 0,5mm thick, and it was so much louder than when set of with a fuse. anyone know why? can it be that the hammer blow "packs" the AP or something?
and I tried to put a small amount between two coins and shot it with a air rifle. and nothing happened. It (the rrifle) is quite weak, but I thougt it would be enough to set it off
if it really were that shock sensitive that people say..

My guess is that when you strike AP with a hammer all of it detonates, but when you ignite it some of it deflagralates which makes little noise. A while back I posted something
about how my AP seems to be more powerful when detonated by another, smaller charge of AP. I would also guess that the reason your ears are ringing is due to the
hammering of AP:D .

I have a holiday from school next week so Im going to make some more AP then, and me and a friend are going to do some tests..
one test will defenitly be to let a small amount detonate a bigger charge.
Just one problem, Im not sure if I dare to transport it to the site, im going with my moped on dirt roads for 5 km to his house., so i need just to come up with a way to carry
it so that it is protected from bumping around too much.
wats te biggest charge with AP someone here has detonated at once?? just fun to know:)
rooster April 18th, 2003, 08:02 PM

I detonated 220 grams of AP before I learnt what this shit can do. Very loud bang, but way too much AP to be carrying around. Now all I make is 10 grams at most. It is more
than enough for a couple of blasting caps, and it makes it a lot safer to work with.
I would not recommend you to make a lot of AP at once. Rather make enough for a blasting cap, and buy some AN or something to use it on.
xyz April 18th, 2003, 08:53 PM

I have set off about 50g of AP on it's own, and I have set off a 200g charge of flame sensitive APAN (APAN made with 25%AP instead of 10%).
Large amounts of pure AP is not a good idea though.
drshneb June 5th, 2003, 10:17 AM

if transporting is absolutely neccessary the best shock absorbent material i know of is chalk, dirt cheap to. my teacher suggested this during one of our "theoretical"
conversations on explosives
metafractal June 6th, 2003, 10:12 AM

If transporting a small amount of AP, why not transport it unconfined, like in a piece of cloth or something. This way, if it does go off, it will only deflagrate and I cant see how
you would suffer more than a bit of a singe. The other method, already mentioned quite a few times, is to store the main charge of AP damp with a tiny charge of dry AP
(stored seperateley). Damp AP is very hard to detonate (even by flame), but should be able to be detonated by the smaller dry charge.
rooster June 6th, 2003, 01:31 PM

If AP stored in a cloth goes off, it all goes off, metafractal. Or so are my experiences. I don't know how much gas "a small amount" will produce, but you don't need that much
to blow the windows out of for example a car.
Anthony June 6th, 2003, 02:25 PM

Even wrapped in cloth or tissue paper, AP will make DDT and go high order. A shallow open container would make it more likely to simply deflagerate (not guaranteed!), but
then you have the problem of spills and cops looking into your car and saying "yo got crax0r back here, boy?".

Hmm... well, I myself-- I mean SWIM, has ignited about 5g of AP in a piece of cloth, and it did not make DDT. It was evenly spread over the cloth, and only went up in a little
ball of flame. Yet, even in the sallowest container, in the smallest amounts, it has always detonated.
Arthis June 8th, 2003, 04:11 PM

Calculations are made in the pdf I made. Anyway, with 150 mL 30-35% H2O2, 120 mL acetone, and 40 mL 30 HCl, I got 36g dry AP. This is a kinda poor yield, compared to
the 120 g I would have expected, exactly a 30% yield. I'll try to cool better the reactants before the reaction, as before adding the acid, the acetone/h2o2 mix got up to 40C;
I cooled it down, of course, to perform the acid addition to a global temp. of 12C. I'll try to get a better yield next time.
BTW, what is your usual yield ? This is something we don't often hear about...
GibboNet June 18th, 2003, 12:22 AM

About the AP in / on cloth:
I used to filter AP through an old piece of clean cloth, from a t-shirt. After filtering a few batches in a row, the cloth was evenly covered with a thin sprinkling of AP crystals.
(very pretty actually, all shimmering in the sunlight)
I lit the edge, well away from any actual AP, and stood back, assuming a very thin covering of wet AP crystals were fairly harmless. There was a bit on there, only waht I was
to afraid to scrape off the cloth with somthing, fearing a friction ignition. The closth lit, and by the time I stood back up, it went off, and it was as powerful as dry AP, maybe
because the heat of the flame dried, then ignited the AP.
Whatever happened, the tin can (Large milo can) was twisted, and thrown sideways. I learnt my respect of dangerous primaries the hard way :rolleyes:
Cyclonite July 24th, 2003, 09:46 AM

darkdontayStill what would you guys suggest as a could way to transport it.. Now the EOD seem to love their little tin cans.. but must of us are not able to make or what to
make something like that..
Just for info EOD does use the metal cans when there is an EMR hazard to shield it only when the EMR hazard is higher than making a pipe bomb by placing explosives in a
closed metal container. We always use sand in an open metal box such as an ammo can. The metal containers used to transport caps can withstand a cap detonation. I guess
with strong enough metal and a good packing material you could make one. Just know its limits and test it
Sorry im off subject but its good info
knowledgehungry July 24th, 2003, 12:45 PM

Just for info EOD does use the metal cans when there is an EMR hazard to shield it only when the EMR hazard is higher than making a pipe bomb by placing explosives in a
closed metal container. We always use sand in an open metal box such as an ammo can.
Good heavens do we have another EOD on our hands? Who do you mean by we?
gliper July 24th, 2003, 02:59 PM

Stirofome and crumpled up paper are the best shock absorbers around they would also suppress the sound from an accedentale detonation.
knowledgehungry July 24th, 2003, 07:20 PM

I highly doubt that they would do much of anything to suppress the sound. Also there are many better shockwave absorbers, like pumice.

Good heavens do we have another EOD on our hands? Who do you mean by we?
We as in EOD oh and sand is one of the best shock absorbers, it uniformly distributes to energy of the shock wave to a harmless level, given enough sand of course. Its why
we use sandbags to stop bullets and sometimes place around UXOs in to reduce damage to surroundings in event of detonation

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Best m ixture for AP? - Archive File
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M a m m ut
A new voice
Posts: 39
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Hi there,
i h a v e A m m onium nitrat and (NH4)2S2O8
and much AP. Which substances of this two
give a strong explosion with AP ????
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
Registered: DEC 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This should be in the explosive peroxides section.
T h e f o r m u l a f o r a m m onium nitrate is NH4NO3.
W hat do you m ean by "which substances of these two give an explosion with AP"?
AP can be used to detonate NH4NO 3, but you said "substances of these two"!
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y b l a ckadder (edited February 02, 2001).]
Foodos
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Posts: 210
From :
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m a m m ut, yo u have made about 10-20 mistakes since your being here on the forum. Fucking get with it.
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
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I agree with Foodos a lot.
H e y m a m m u t, a quote from the FAQ.
" Y o u c a n a l s o b e b a n n e d f o r i m proper use of the English language. Learn how to spell and use proper gram m er. If your posts
d o n o t m a k e sense, you will b e labeled a lamer and banned to stop your flow of stupid crap."
READ THAT TEN TIMES OVER
radar
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Posts: 64
From : R edding California
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He will NOT be banned if he doesnt know how to use the English language correctly due to it not being his first language,
however, if we know him to be an English speaker, well then, fuck him .
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From : V a n c o u v e r , C a n a d a
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If you cannot properly speak english, go away and find another place to talk about explosives. m abe there is no international
e x p l o s i v e s f o r u m s that arent like totse. But thats no m atter, ma m m ut belongs on totse anyways. Explosives is proablly the
m o s t d a n g e r o u s h o b b y i n e x i s t a n c e . T h e l a s t t h i n g w e n e e d i s p e o p l e g i v i n g m i s l e a d i n g o r e r r o n e o u s i n f o r m ation.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From : s o m ewhere in florida
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ok,ok,ok, leave him alone for now, he is inexperienced I can now see that, hopefully his heas hasn't been filled with anarchy
and totse crap. I would recomend he d ownloads som e b o o k s a n d r e a d s t h e m e s p . t h e m akeshift arsenal. let's not drive this
guy off just yet. from his name I am a ssum ing he is ge rm an, I think it m eans large or giant or tall person or something like
that. the sen tence structure in german is a bit off from english and could be a possible problem, it just is that we cannot
understand you at all tim es and you probably havent re a d e n o u g h o f t h e f o r u m to understand the rules totaly so do this:
go to the m ain rules page at the forum entrance, look up kewlbom b e r s , d o n t b e o n e , a n d finally look at older m e m b e r s p o s t s
and hold your own to their standards such as no "one liners" witch are po sts that say what you want to be answered in the
thread in the thread title and dont leave any info in the box, (well at least that's what I call em) and do not call exp losives
"bombs" follow those sim ple rules and the flam e s s h o u l d d i e o u t o k ?
vehem t
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 580
From : C a n a d a
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Moving to pe roxide section.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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Just calculate the oxygen ballance between the peroxide and the an to get a "0" ballance. AN has excess oxy..while ap lacks.
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited February 03, 2001).]
M a m m ut
A new voice
Posts: 39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mam m u t :
Hi there,
i h a v e A m m onium nitrat and (NH4)2S2O8
and much AP. Gives NH4NO3 or (NH4)2 S2O 8
a strong explosion with AP ????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
h o w m u c h a c e t o n e a n d h y d r o g e n p e r o x ide must i take to produce much Ap ???
I will be better with m y english!!!
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
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g o t o m e g a l o m ania's site, you're so la zy!
Y o u m u s t a l s o s e a r c h dam nit, there's a whole section of this forum devoted to this explosive, and you insist on having the
information spoon fed to you! Get off your arse and do som ething.
Donutty
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Posts: 223
From : U K
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OK, I agree with the 'lazyness' side of things but don't agree with labelling him how you have just because his english doesn't
flow as well as it should. It was a good attem pt, but got a bit jumbled up.
And what if h e is dyslexic? Are you going to ban him for that?
I think you were a bit too harsh, but as I said, I too would say he was lazy. The first thing I do before asking questions is
RESEARCH. Only then , if you dont find what you're looking for, you should ask.
CragHack
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Posts: 606
From :
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technically th is forum would grind to a halt if everyone said "look shit up", "do a search before you post" and shit like that. the
only topics that would b e o p e n a r e o p i n o n s a n d m isc. another th ing i noticed is m embers don't tell others to search for shit if
they have been here for a while. there is a huge air of elitism here and it pisses m e off. lay off the newbies. just be c a u s e
p e o p l e h e r e t h i n k t h e y a r e a l l h i g h a n d m i g h t y d o e s n ' t m ean they can push around new m e m bers. now, this isn't an isolated
c a s e . i h a v e s e e n i t s o m any other tim e s t h a n p e o p l e j u s t r a g g i n g o n m a m m ut. people harshly judge others and it is so damn
stup id. som etimes it is right to do it, b ecause that person is actually a loser, but m ore tim es than not, if a newbie m a k e s o n e
silly little mistake. BAM! you g uys are all over them , telling them they are Kewl... and to get the hell out or get HED!. the only
person i want to get "hed" from is a girl so quit slinging that saying around like it is your own. only the m o d s s h o u l d b e a b l e t o
threaten. if you are not a m od then yo u don't have the right. all people begin as newbies, this is a place to h e l p o t h e r s a n d
provide info. if som e o n e c o m es witha question that you NONm ods don't think is up to YO U R s t a n d a r d s s h u t t h e h e l l u p a b o u t
it. it is not your palce to flam e s o m eone for trying there best.
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...
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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uh, I think I have pretty m uch discovered his native language is not english, as for the mods takin care of the situation, I
have a feeling things will be taken care of (inside comm ent to som e o n e a b o v e ) ^
M a m m ut
A new voice
Posts: 39
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CragHack :
technically th is forum would grind to a search before you post" and shit like that.
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UUU UHHHUU HUHUHU H

i search search search and SEARCH SEARCh in the net , but i canot find som e site , where
stan d how much AP in gram m s u h a v e , i f u t a k e f o r e x a m p l e 2 0 0 m l a c e t o n e a n d 2 7 0 m l H 2 O 2
!!!!!!!! AHAHAHHAHAHAH
frostfire
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 266
From :
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m a m m ut,
Hast Du versuchen,Mega'Site zu finden.....
ich glaube das Du hast nicht.....
a l s o , d a n n n i m m st du diese Adresse: surf.to/m e g a l o m a n i a
I believe that you've searched 'n searched but m a k e s u re you know how and where to sea rch.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > benzoyl peroxide - Archive File
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atropine
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Posts: 129
From : wales
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what is benoyl peroxide usefull for.... how can i m ake it into an explosive.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
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by itself it is an exoplosive. ju st like acetone peroxide or HMTD (for lack of the fu ll nam e ) y o u d o n o t h a v e t o m odify the pure
stuff in anyway to ma k e i t g o b o o m . it is very sensitive, i would stay away from it.
------------------
...
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
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I would suggest the tribenzoylperoxyd acid then C6H3(CO2-OH)3 or the trinitrope r b e n z o i c a c i d C 6 H 2 ( N O 2 ) 3 C O 3 H a s m o r e
effective exp losives but I don't know if they exists...but I'm sure it is worth giving those a try.
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > pic of ap yield w/ baquacil - Archive File
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Ctrl_C
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Posts: 230
From :
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i used 66mL acetone and 81m L of baquacil (27% h2o2)
here is the yield after 2 hours.
that is a couple (about 5) m m deep to o...very nice.
btw, sorry to those w/ dialup
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
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well wut could you say but.."Sweeeeet"
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From : G u e s s
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I noticed the date stamp in th e lower right hand corner. That m e a n s y o u h a d i t d e v e l o p e d a t a s t o r e , w h i c h m e a n s s o m e o n e
probably looked at it.
M a n y p e o p l e h a v e b e en busted after taking pictures of their guns, bombs, whatever. If I was a photoclerk, that wou l d l o o k l i k e
c r a n k ( m e t h a m p h e t a m ine) in a filter to me.
You can get digital ca meras at wal-mart for as little as $20 now. Not super clear but they illustrate the point without outsiders
seeing your shit.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them "
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Ctrl_C
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 230
From :
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nah...im sm arter than that...m y k o d a k d c 3 4 0 0 p u t s a d a t e s t a m p on all the pics. nice digi cam too if anyone is lookin
Donutty
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Posts: 223
From : U K
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W hat sort of angle is that picture from? What is it in? - looks like some sort of jar. Just wondered because with 100m l 17.5%
H 2 O 2 a n d 8 0 m l a c e t o n e I g e t m ore than that in 30 m in utes. Mu st be the way it's shot. If you got a side view I may find I am
wrong.
Ctrl_C
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 230
From :
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its a n aerial shot of it filtering on som e filter paper over a measuring cup. thats a bout 2 film canisters worth that we just
detonated...big improvement over 3% h2o2
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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the jump in productio in ap is pretty noticibe I currently use 27% baquacil
$12.00 for 2 gallons
sealsix6
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 154
From : NYC ,NYC,USA
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W hat is baquacil and can I use that instead of sulfuric acid or hydracloric acid to make ap? And if so how do I make the ap
using that method?
[This message has been edited by sealsix6 (edited February 17, 2001).]
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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Baquacil is 27% H2O2 (grinding teeth)
Teck
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From :
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D A M N I c a l l e d u p a n d o r d e r e d s o m e b a q u a c i l a n d t h e y s e n t m e 7.5%h2o 2 that re ally pisses me off I specified Baquacil for
p o o l a n d t h e y s e n t m e Baquacil Spa. I paid $14.50 .SHIT.
Mr C ool
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Posts: 991
From : None of your bloody business!
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where d'ya get baqua cil from?
Ctrl_C
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 230
From :
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local pool store stocks it...i'll be visiting there weekly no w
another thing i noticed with baquacil is how m uch m ore powerful it is. i had a film canister full with the lid superglued on and
fuse d and this is what it did.
that rock used to be a full round circle and its about 3 inches thick.
Picture links no longe r worked, so couldn't be included - Anthony

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Ionic Equations for AP - Archive File
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OxYdiSer
A new voice
Posts: 12
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
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Allright...a couple of questions from a newbie.
1) What are the full ionic equations for:
a)the sythesis and

b)the detonation of acetone peroxide
2) I have been using film canisters as containers for my AP and I was wondering if wrapping the canister with several layers of duct tape would significantly increase the power
of the explosion.
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well...as for ionic equations..i have NFI
but, yes wraping the canister in duct tape will increase the power...
this is a matchbox full of AP wrapped in about 2m of masking tape
this is what that same matchbox did to a 8h x 12w inch biscut tin
it left a crater about 30cm across, 10cm deep

and we still can't find the missing side to the tin...
however, we had an identical biscut tin, and matchbox full of AP that WASN'T wrapped with anything, and it barely even put a hole thru the lid...(no pics of that one...)
neither tin was held down, nore were the lids held on with anything..
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited February 14, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no ionic equations for the CTAP nor for the detonation equation because:
1) ionic equations does only exists in solution meaning a solvant is present (wel maybe if the product is molten you will have a some ions but it will detonate).
2)TCAP will not detonate if surrounded/soaking wet in water....
As a matter of facts here is what you get with an ionic equation from HCl and NaOH:
HCl+NaOH-->NaCl+H2O (original equation)
H+ + Cl- + Na+ + OH- -->H2O + Na+ + Cl-
after spreading it into ions, take the ones that are on both side of the equation in a way to simplify it...
H+ + OH- ---> H2O (that's the ionic equation from the general reaction between an acid and a base in aquous media!!!)
So before asking stuppid questions first see waht is the meaning of the words in you question....
With CTAP HCl is there only as a catalyst and thus is there as a very little part of the "reactants" someting like 0.1 mole).
3CH3-CO-CH3 + 3H2O2 + HCl---> CTAP + 3 H2O + HCl
Only HCl can be ionised in a significant quantity here thus you get the trivial equation:
HCl --> HCl
H+ + Cl- --> H+ + Cl-
and after simplification
....--->....
Thus the ionic equation of the making of the CTAP is
3CH3-CO-CH3 + 3H2O2--> CTAP + 3H2O
(nothing really new under the sun).
Clear? Anyway learn chemistry better
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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ah..yeah..what he said =)
*cough* wtf?
OxYdiSer
A new voice
Posts: 12
From:
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tanks...fucking tanks
It's alright, I passed year 9 chemistry for shit's sake.
Perhaps I should have rephrased my questions ,but thanks anyway.
Anyone got the equation for detonation of *dry* AP? Plz include heat of reaction.
Also, wtf is CTAP?

[This message has been edited by OxYdiSer (edited February 16, 2001).]
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: EU
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CTAP = Cyclotriacetoneperoxide
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
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Yeah cyclotriacetonperoxyde is CTAP!
TCAP would be tricycloacetonperoxyde!
But as everybody knows here (it seems it is not the case right?)there is only one loop in the molecule and thus there might not be three rings!!!!!
After 9 years chemistry, you can't figure out what is the equation of detonation???? Where have you studied?
Anyway
(-C(CH3)2-O-O-)3
--->3CO2 + 6C + 9H2
or
--->6CO + 3C + 9H2
or
--->3CO + 6C + 3H2O + 6H2
or
--->9C + 6H2O + 3H2
I think the truth is between all those forms (it depends on the pressure, on the quantity of starting detonating material and on the amount of heat reached).
------------------
Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
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PHILOU Zrealone i think he ment year 9 chemistry as it year 9 at school not that he as been doing chemistry for 9 years
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
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I am currently in year nine, and I'm on my first year of chemistry, and I vaguely know what PHILOU's talking about, just enough for me to understand.
This newbie guy is prolly 14.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Filtering AP - Archive File
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daturk2000
A new voice
Posts: 6
From: afganistan
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first off im a newbie- so pls dont give me a grilling!! In "the makshift arsenal" it says that after making AP crystals, you should filter them out of the water by using newspaper.
It also says that the crytals r v.sensitive by friction, and shock. How do i filter the crystals out safely without blowing my head off!?? after i have got the crystals do i have 2
wash them? and if i do/dont what do i do with them after that?? i would have searched this in the past archives but i kept gettin an error mesg that didnt let me in! any help
would b very apprecciated!!
[This message has been edited by daturk2000 (edited February 22, 2001).]
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
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There are a number of posts on AP. Do a site search. I would edit this post before you spoil your rep forever. first impressions are the most dictating.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
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From:
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What I do is put them on a stack of newspaper, the water will be sucked away.
Stone
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Posts: 140
From:
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AP isn't very sensitive when it is wet, so don't worry. Just don't drop it or throw it around. I've found coffee filters to be the best, you don't loose ANY AP and it filters quicker
than most other papers. Also, it is really smooth so it is easy to get the AP off the paper when all the water/solution has filtered away.
Once you have the AP in the filter, just keep pouring water through until it is completely white, you can pour a solution of Sodium Bicarbonate though if you want to be extra
cautious.
By the way, the forum has sections for a reason. AP = Acetone Peroxide, meaning it belongs in "Explosive Peroxides".
darkdontay March 18th, 2003, 12:04 AM

I do not see the relevance of bringing this one back? I'm lost in its usefulness? Any how I just filter it through a old tee shirt with cold water for about three minutes and that
seems to work well. I'm not too picky at all anymore when it comes to making AP.
Anthony March 18th, 2003, 09:58 AM

It, and similar threads are brought back because they contain *very* basic information. Useless to many members, but useful to newbies and will mean they don't have to post
to ask for such information! Because the old threads were archived, we lack the basic info we used to discuss, leaving a large intellectual gap that real newbies have to cross.
Now it's being reintergrated.
BTW, a square of fine weave Tshirt cloth works for me too. As does laying it on a newspaper to wick away the remaining moisture :)
darkdontay March 20th, 2003, 04:08 PM

I have used newspaper before, but I have palced several shhets down, then smeared the AP down into a thin layer [not too thin though] and then addee several sheet of
newspaper ontop of it. I then put on some weight. The newspaper definatnly cuts the drying time way down. I gues luckly not much at all seems to stick to the paper either.

Time for a newbie question :)
Is there any other methods of filtering AP?

I've used coffee filters and this works really well except for large amounts it can take hours. I've also used T-shirt material but a small amount of water comes out and then the
AP crystals clogged up the material so no more fluid could flow through the material.
I'll try some other materials, but I was just wondering if anyone does it a different way.
Thanks
Einsteinium April 15th, 2003, 06:02 AM

If you have a filtering flask, a buchner funnel and a water aspirator (or any half-assed appartus that can do the same job ;) ), you could filter AP under reduced pressure. It
definitivly goes faster that way, often an hundred times faster than gravity filtration.

You could always use capilary action to remove the liquid and leave the AP in the original container.
zippoxiv April 15th, 2003, 09:51 PM

I have found a fine wire mesh to work out well. Although you do need to neutralize the solution with bicarb solution and dilute with a large quantity of water. Otherwise your
leftover acid ofen feels the need to attack the metal of the wire mesh. I have found bowl shaped strainers at most grocery stores, and although the AP crystals will most likely
be big enough to fit through the holes they will clog the mesh and work to retain most of the precipitate. If you use the mesh in conjunction with the tshirt method the cloth will
catch any crystals that fall through the mesh. I found it to be quicker than the tshirt method alone and even though your filtered AP manages to retain a larger amount of water
since you cannot effectively "squeeze" out some of the liquid after a night of drying on newspaper its still ready for use.
Stupidly, I thought the AP was clogging the T-shirt material... It wasn't, the liquid was causing the material to become air tight and cause a vacuum in the container, once i let
some air in it works great :rolleyes:

Hey at least you are learning, and problem solving on your own.. Nice to see.
Me myself I stil hjust use a cut coke bottle and a Tee with some duct tape, very crude but it gets the job done... I'm more interested in keeping everything capable of being
downo "On Site" with materials that would not draw attention.. Though if a little effort to expand and enhance the yeild and product I have no reservations against taking some
extra steps.
Cricket April 16th, 2003, 11:51 AM

I used to use the t-shirt because it is much faster than most anything else. I would filter with it, and run it under the water to wash it cleaner instead of just putting it back in
water and refiltering. When I filtered it for the last time, I would squeze it to cut many hours off the drying time. Then after a couple batches, I noticed that when I used the t-
shirt, I had about 1/2-1/3 the yield compared to the coffee filter method! I think most of the product was lost when I ran it under the water while still in the filter. Anyway, just
thought I would say this to help someone avoid learning the hard way (esp. with 3%!) and loosing a good bit of AP. Good times.
Oh yea, I like the idea of drying AP in between paper. Thats the worst thing, waiting on something to dry that you don't want to heat up or put lights on.
Keyser Soze April 16th, 2003, 09:40 PM

The AP will dry even faster if you put it on newspaper and then right next to a dehumidifier. Even when not spread out, 30 grams of AP is dry in a few hours.
darkdontay April 16th, 2003, 11:31 PM

I would lay my batch in the middle of several thinkness's of newspaper then place more paper over it and put like a book on it.. Never had it blow up and, if I would change it
around, move it to a new palce arounf every ten minutes I could have a nice size bathc dried in about a hour... sounds like that crap eyeglass ad.. Get your AP dried in about a
hour.. :p
None April 26th, 2003, 06:11 AM

Hello, my friend had a dream that ~10g of AP was made with 50% H2O2 and HCl as a catalyst no water was added so the precipitate was fairly dry after the reaction was
complete. It was left for 2 days, and when some bicarb solution was added, most of the AP stayed in a large cake. This cake is hard to break up with a satay stick even after
leaving it in the solution for a day. Do people think it would be safe to break up under water? Would it become less caked up if washed well and left to dry? Is there any other
advice people could give? Thank you, and sorry if this seems like a simple question, but my friend has had little experience with AP in his dreams.
jfk April 26th, 2003, 07:51 AM

personaly when i make AP i filter it with watmans low ash, medium speed filter paper which i routienely steal from my high school chemistry labs, I filter/wash it 3 times with
deionised water then once with 1 tsp/litre sodium bicarb/deionised water to nutralise any remaining acid. then i was/filter it once more with de-natured ethanol (99.98%), i use
denatured because you gotta have a liscence to buy absolute ethanol in new zealand, where as they dont care about de-natured because its got bitrex in it. dont use methanol
how ever, i find that it dissolves a small ammount of the AP in it, rendering it unfulterable and also non-flammable. i wonder if anyone could enlighten me on why it does this.
(it only dissolves about 1% of the AP but its still an annoyance)..........anyway back the the last filtration with denatured ethanol - i leave it on the filter paper on a stack of
newspapers and in about 4 minutes (in my cupboard) its quite dry and ready to use.

to "none": try dissolve the AP in some acetone, then let it evaporate and after that it should be fine.
or maybe it would become soft enough to break apart easy if you just put on a little acetone

yes, acetone will work im sure.\
to none. i know it was a dream but 50% H2O2 will have water in it. if you used the 30mL H2O2/82mL acetone ratio you would ahve about 15mL water...the AP shouldnt be in
a hard cake, IMHO. but im sure acetone will do the trick in breaking it up, and im also sure that it wont explode if youbreak it up under water/ethanol/methanol/acetone.
rooster April 30th, 2003, 06:36 AM

I can understand that the AP seems dry. When i use 35% H2O2 the material that comes out is almost solid.
If you dissolve the cake in water, the acetone will get the water from the cake, and when evapourating the acetone again, it will still have the water left. It must be dried off
another way.

if its AP it should NOT dissolve in water....
Efraim_barkbit July 20th, 2003, 08:23 PM

when filtering my last batch of AP I thought of this thread and decided to share my filtering method. It saves me a lot of trouble compared to my shitty attempts to filter during
my first two batches. It might not be something for those who wants their stuff washed and dried really fast, but it works very good for me, its not as messy as i belive using
a T-shirt would be, and much more economical for the yield..
I use the cut off top of a plastic coke bottle as a funnel, and filter through a coffefilter. I put the whole thing in a glass jar and pour water throug it., then some bicarb. solution,
and after that more water until pH ~7.
Improvement of method: put the thing in the sink with water running at same speed as it passes through the filter, add bicarb solution manually, then back under the water
until pH neutral.
BTW, I store my AP in the filter, still sitting in the funnel, in a old freezer, It is in my opinion very good, because this way, much of the water will get out of the AP, but it wont
dry, and I can easily take out the amount that I need and dry it between newspaper sheets.
It saves me from the worries of having a heap of dry AP lying around, and since its not drying, I can still get it ready for use faster than if it was stored under water.
Oh, and the freezer is turned OFF..
EDIT: the first part, and the last..
kingspaz July 20th, 2003, 08:38 PM

the only problem i can see is that you for proper neutralisation you must put the AP into bicarb solution properly instead of just washing. then ALL the crystals will be surrounded
by the bicarb instead of the solution just following channels in the AP bulk in the filter paper. thus only the edges of the channels get neutralised. also, the filter paper is pretty
porous so is not ever going to be neutralised. better neutralise the AP as suggested above an then you can store it in the now slightly basic filter paper which will ensure a
complete lack of acidity.
Arthis July 21st, 2003, 06:21 AM
You filter your AP in a coffee filter ? You should use some old T-shirt, the water goes through much more easily, and it's not destroyed too fast. I don't know you but when I
used coffee filters they were often destroyed. Pretty annoying.
Efraim_barkbit July 21st, 2003, 06:35 PM

After I starded to put the coffe filter in a funnel, I have never had the problem of the filters breaking, the filter is supported by the funnel, so the weight of the AP+water is
taken up by it instead of the filter. Before I used the funnel, the filters broke very often and that was very annoying, but now I have no problems with it.
When using a T-shirt, doesnt some AP escape through the holes in the cloth?, and it seems quite messy, but that might just be how I imagine it?
I forgot to mention, that when pouring the bicarb. solution through, I stir around in the AP to get it all neutralized. but I guess some AP might still be left unneutralized, so I
should probably lower everything down in a bucket of bicarb solution and let it sit for some time.
(or if someone has a better idea?)
Imperial July 22nd, 2003, 11:01 AM

I have tried many methods (well three) of filtering AP, and here is my experience with them:
1. The coffee filter worked very well. It was slow and took a long time, but if you have time to spare this is a safe method which will give a very good yield of AP.
2. The T-shirt method was excellent also, and was very fast. Using an old T-shirt taped to a cut up coke bottle as some have suggested is great, but another good method if
you don't want to use scungy coke bottles, etc is just to use the T-shirt material instead of filter paper and use it in a funnel. This is fast and effective, although it gave me a
little less final yield than the coffee filters did. This may have been due to other factors, though, so I still recommend this method.
3. The newspaper method works well and is the fastest method of them all, but this one is somewhat unsafe in my experience. I did one batch and it worked very well, giving
me nice reasonably sized AP crystals and it dried in the least time ever with no (well very little) lost yield. I decided to do this again, but here in Australia it gets quite hot,
which sensitised the AP and it ended up detonating in our garden shed when I left it alone to filter out. Nobody was hurt and nothing was damaged, but I was pretty pissed that
I had lost a perfectly good batch of AP. This method is probably good in colder areas, but NOT good if you use a metal shed on a hot day (in retrospect, I don't see how I could
even have considered leaving it there in the first place).
So my verdict is that the filtering methods (T-shirt and coffee filter) are the safest, but the newspaper method gives the best yield. It all depends on the circumstances.
knowledgehungry July 22nd, 2003, 11:08 AM

IIRC it is not a good thing to have Organic peroxides basic, so I think a quick rinse with the bicarb followed by another rinse with H2O is best.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Dry HMTD - Archive File
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M a m m ut
A new voice
Posts: 39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi
one little queston. Does ONLY dry HMT D e x p l o s i o n ? ? ? ? ?
D e m olition
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 159
From : Austra lia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I do thin k o n l y d r y H M T D e x p l o d e s ? b e c a u s e a f t e r I m ade HMTD and it was still wet I tryed lighting a little bit to see how
quickly it burned.
Alm o s t n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d , b u t a f t e r I d ryed it out for a while under a lamp and tryed the sam e thin g it gave a quick flash and
burned extre mely quickly.A
g o o d u s e f o r t h i s e x p losive is to get the end of texta,(alum inum tubing)fill it up with HMTD,light
w i t h a f u s e a n d g e t a w a y . T h i s m a k e s a n e x t r e m e l y l o u d b o o m a nd as HMTD doesn't react with alum inum it m akes it a lot
s a f e r.
D e m olition
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't that a bit obvious, demolition?
I think everyone thought of that before, and it sounds a bit kewl anyway.
I thought that HMTD reacted with m e t a l s , a s i t h a s a n e x t r e m e e x c e s s o f o x y g e n !
Oh yeah, and that causes loads of shrapnel.
Donutty
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 223
From : U K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two (or three) things wrong here:
1] Dont dry HMTD / AP under a lam p u nless you want a piece of said lam p in your forehead.
2] Q u o t e :
" T h e m etals that will cause problems are

alum inum, zinc, antimony, brass, copper, lead and iron. These m etals in
contact with the HMTD even when dry, will cause corrosion."
If you want to put HMTD in a m etal container / put it in a plastic bag first
3] W hy risk you life m aking a firecrack er out of m etal? Use a thick(ish) cardboard tube. W h y n o t e v e n u s e a m atchbox? It
m akes really no difference with the m aterial you m ake the container out of, especially when your safety is paramount
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Err, I'll secon d the lamp thing...
I'm pretty su r e H M T D , l i k e A P h a s a n e g a t i v e o x y g e n b a l a n c e ?
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 217
From :
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YEP
vehem t
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 580
From : C a n a d a
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing m oisture does to HMTD or AP is desensitizes it to flam e, and prevents further spread of deflagration of any that
does ignite. It can still be detonated by means of shock.
M a m m ut
A new voice
Posts: 39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i tested hmtd, which wasnt dry ,there was noth ing (no little explosion for exam p l e ) . B U T
I have tested AP,which wasnot dry too and if i burned it up there came th e n o r m a l m ushro o m - f l a m me. ALSO O N L Y D R Y h m t d
EXPLOSION!!! thanx to all
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al react with citric acid or HC l or H2SO4 so clean wel your HMTD before use!
Have you never put som e HCl, H2SO4 or citric ac. with/in Al foil? That's corrosion!!!!
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP How sensitive to heat? - Archive File
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Lex_Luthor
A new voice
Posts: 10
From: VA, US
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It is extremely sensitive to heat, shock, friction, etc. -- This is all I've seen really on the site about AP being heat sensitive. Whats is the flash point in (F).
Can heat be a trigger/detonator?
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
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There is no point in finding out the flash point, when you start heating it it will explode immediately. Heat can CAUSE sensitive explosives to detonate, but heat itself isn't a
detonator. As for a "trigger", I don't know what you're talking about.
CragHack
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Posts: 606
From:
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by saying "trigger" i think he means something that will just set it off. and yes, heat will easily make AP one cranky baby. Resulting in loud noises by the baby. (especially if
confined)
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ALENGOSVIG1
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acetone peroxide melts at 91C and explodes at that temperature if kept.
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technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
PHILOU Zrealone
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Posts: 479
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BY definition Flash Point is the lowest temperature where a compound can take fire on contact with a flamme!!!
As examples FP of aceton or ethanol are low like ambiant temp; that doesn't mean the compounds will take fire at those temps!!!
Maybe that when freezing cold (liquid nitrogen, carboice,-20C,...) the CTAP will not burn nor detonate or deflagrate upon contact with a flamme ???
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PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
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I should have said for a better understanding:Ethanol and aceton
Those compounds will not take fire if not in contact with a flamme even over their FP like at their BP(boiling point)!!!!
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darkdontay March 18th, 2003, 12:01 AM

I have had mixed results setting AP off with a blown out match, just cause I wanted to see wither it would set it off, and how truly sensitive it was. I will say that a open flame
near it is not a bit safe at all.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD synth.
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Helos March 23rd, 2003, 05:55 PM

I have some thought about HMTD that I will share.
First I begin with experim e n t s I h a v e d o n e .
I did two batches with HMTD.
T h e f i r s t o n e u s e d 5 0 m l of 20% H2O 2 a n d 1 0 g o f H e x a m ine that was dissolved in the H2 O2.

1 0 m l of HCl 35 % was added.
After som e h ours the pH had raised from a r o u n d p H 1 t o p H 5 ! I a d d e d 5 m o r e m l of HCl

35 %, after that the pH raised s o m ewhat again (around pH 2) but as this value was lower than the one in the method with citric
acid I didnt add m ore HC l.
After 24 hours the white crystals were washed well with water and after that m ixed with acetone (to rem ove impurities) and
filtered and washed.
Yield was surprisingly low, 6,1g. This m eans 41% of theoretical yield One m ole of HMTA is converted in one m o l e o f H M T D .
(Calculate molar m a s s e s )
This should be the total reaction

3 H2O + 3 H2O 2 + HMTA ====> HMTD + 2 NH3
T h e s e c o n d s y n t h . u s e d 5 0 m l o f 2 0 % H 2 O 2 a n d 1 0 g o f H e x a m ine that was dissolved in the H2O2.

18g of citric acid was also dissolved in the reaction vessel and th e pH was checked.
I dont rem ember exactly but I think when I first cheked the pH was 2-3 and 24 hour later it was higher, m a y b e 3 - 4 .
After 24 hours the white crystals were washed with water and after that mixed with acetone (to rem ove im purities) and filtered
and washed.
Yield was 8,4g. This means 56% of theoretical yield.
W ith HC l the reaction seemed to be faster, in only minutes the first crystals form e d a n d g a v e t h e s o l u t i o n a m i l k y c o l o u r .
All liquid reactants wa s chilled in a fridge to around 5C, after that no m ore cooling was needed.
T h e r e a c t i o n o f H M T D i s s o m e what com plicated.
[URL=http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum /ultim atebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=00044 1#000]h ttp://www.roguesci.org/cgi-

bin/ewforum /ultim ate bb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000441#000[/UR L]
In this thread I think an important misunderstanding is repeated over and over a gain. (Dont read this as critic)
This is that the HCl just acts a s a catalyst but that it just affects the rate. This can also be understood like it doesnt matters
which acid is used. This is not true, and reports of too m uch acid killing the reaction can also be read in the above thread.
Acid
C6H12N4 + 6 H2O ======> 4NH3 + 6CH2O
The acid is needed to catalyse the reaction, after that is done th e a c i d b e c o m e s a p r o b l e m . Am m o nia is created and if there is
to m any H+ ions they will react with to much am m onia. In fact only half of the cre a t e d a m m o n i a i s n e e d e d t o c r e a t e H M T D .
This is the next reaction (m ay be catalysed by acid)
6 HCHO + 3 H2O2 ==> 3 HO -C H2-O -O - C H 2 - O H
The third rea ction is this:
3 HO-CH2-O-O-CH2-OH + 2 NH3 ==> HMTD + 3 H2O
H e r e t h e a m m onia is needed to create HMTD. To little, and it will not be created.

Its im portant to unde rstand that am monia is created in the first step this synth, and need ed in the last step.
In m y experiments I showed that the pH raised very m uch when HCl was used(in fact alm ost all of the HCl m u s t h a v e b e e n
reacted with am m o n i a d u e t o t h e c h a n g e f r o m pH 1 to pH 5)
Looking at the last re action it seem s very unde rstandably that acid breaks down HMTD (th erefore washing is very im portant,
m aybe the best is to even sto re HMTD with a pH higher than 7)
On the other side the re is nothing that says that AP is more stable when it isnt in an acid environm e n t . H e r e a c i d i s n e e d e d f o r
the reaction that creates AP in t h e l a s t s t e p a n d m a y b e a c i d e v e n m akes it more stable, just like the case is with H2O2.
T h e c o m plicated thing with HMTD is that the reaction needs acid, but to much H+ ions will kill the a m m o n i a . T h e r e f o r e a n
organic acid that gives away their ions slowly (a s they are reacted may be preferable. But as I see, a acid like HCl m a y a l s o b e
used.
An organic acid a little bit stronger than citric is probably preferable.
But based on availability and cost m a n y a c i d s c a n b e u s e d .
I will not apo logize fo r opening a new thread :)
Any com m e n ts!?
<sm all>[ March 23, 2 0 0 3 , 0 5 : 0 2 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : H e l o s ] < / s m all>
rooster March 24th, 2003, 03:35 PM

W hen using the HCl method, at pH 1 why not a d d s o m e NH3 to m ake the reaction a bit less acidic? The am monia would form
an equilibrium with th e a m monia: HCl + NH3 <==> NH4 Cl, if I am not wrong, and the HMTA will have more NH3 to react with.
Al Koholic March 24th, 2003, 04:50 PM

I'd also be willing to bet that citric acid is desirable in the procudre because it is a tricarboxylic acid. The 3 pKa's are
pK1 = 3.128
pK2 = 4.716
pK3 = 6.396
T h e a v e r a g e o f t h e s e ...ie: the isoelectric point where the zwitterion is at its highest concentration is the ave rage of the 3 = p I =
4.746
Interestingly, the pKa of good old acetic acid is 4.76. This acid would also likely be a good substitute for tricarboxylic acid du e
to the similar pKa and therefo re sim ila r affinity for protons.
Al
simply RED March 28th, 2003, 05:34 PM

Acco rding to you a m i x o f a m onia, CH2O and H2O2 will give HMTD.
Try it to see if it really does!
Helos March 28th, 2003, 06:06 PM

No a m ix of the m e n t i o n e d c h e m icals will give HMTA!
NH3+C H2O-->HMTA.
But if you also add H202 (and probably an acid ) you will theoretically com e up with HMTD.
I think acid may be n eeded, but you will not need that m uch acid, the first step is done aldready.
It m ay be worth trying if som e o n e h a s t h e c h e m i c h a l s a vailable.
<sm all>[ March 28, 2 0 0 3 , 0 5 : 0 8 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : H e l o s ] < / s m all>
metafractal May 8th, 2003, 05:19 AM

SW IM just got back from producing a batch of HMTD, and thought of ano ther m inor benifit of using citric acid over HCl- citric
acid reacts endotherm ically with water, whilst HCl reacts exothermically, so it is m u c h e a s i e r t o k e e p t h e t e m perature down.
Usin g 20% H2O2, 18g citric acid, and 10g hexa mine, there was no significant change in te mperature throughout the reaction.
rooster May 20th, 2003, 07:23 AM

The word you were looking for is plastic foil.
W hy not just follow m ega's recipe? It always wo rked for me. Are you sure no ice o r snow got in your beaker while tanding in the
fridge? In m e g a ' s r e c i p e , h e s a y s k e e p i t A T 0 d e g r e e s a f t e r a d d i n g t h e a c i d .
Normally i would believe a slig ht difference in tem perature, volum e of reactants, and so on woldnt m atter too much. Are you
sure the tablet contains hexam i n e / m e t h e n a m ine?
I would try raising the temp som e d e g r e e s a n d s e e i f a n y t h i n g h a p p e n s . R e a c t i o n s t e n d t o g o f a s t e r a t h i g h e r t e m ps...
Mr Cool May 20th, 2003, 07:46 AM

Just leave it in a fridge, at about 5*C, for 24 hours. Cover the reaction to keep dust out. If nothing has form e d a f t e r a n e x t r a
24 hours in the fridge, then throw it away.
DBSP May 20th, 2003, 07:57 AM

Just thought I'd rem ind you of a nother HMTD m ethod that gives you a lot better yields. I posted a topic about this last
s u m mer, might still b e arround.
Dissolve 10g HMTA in 50m l of glacial acetic acid, then add 25m l of 35% H2O 2, let it stand for 5h a t room tem perature then
filter the HMTD and neutralize it. Dry as usual.
I m a d e a b a t c h u s i n g this metod last saturday. I got 14g of dry HMTD +/-1g (inacurate scale). this m e a n s a y i e l d o f a
m inimum o f 8 7 % a n d m ax 100% and if scale would pro ve to give the right weight a 94% yield , theoretical yield from 10g
HMT A is ~14,85g.
Arthis May 20th, 2003, 09:24 AM

Need the acetic acid really be glacial, or 75% would be alright ? W hat's the advantage of pure acid since your H2O2 is diluted
anyway ?
rooster May 20th, 2003, 11:54 AM

Is there any specific reason you want to dissolve the HMTA in the (acetic) acid,m and not in the H2 O2, as u s u a l ?
DBSP May 20th, 2003, 12:31 PM

I don't know very much about the rection itself nor why hex is added to acetic acid and not H2O2.
The swedish infomania files this prodedure com es from states that lower conc acid might cause the reaction to overheat and
start to boil. I don't k now if this is correct though.
W hat I do now is that this is the far be st method of making HMTD I've tried, the yields are 90+% which mu st be concidered
very good for HMTD. The text states yields of 70-80% of theoretical, I don't know why my yields are so good. The yield isn't
increased by wax content that might be the case with ESBIT hexam ine, m y hex is >99,5% pure.
I would like to get a better scale with a 0,1g resolution instead of the 1g res. I have now. W o u l d m ake things a bit easier when
m eassuring yields etc.
H a s a n y o n e e l s e g o t t h e c h e m s n e e d e d?, could you try it and see if you get the same result as I do?
Anthony May 20th, 2003, 03:18 PM

Icecool, my first guess would be that your 10 year old hexam ine m i g h t b e t o b l a m e !
frogfot May 21st, 20 03, 03:4 7 AM

Can't the problem be that he never lets it react at room t e m p ?
For m e HMTD starts to form only when reaction mix is taken out from ice bath into room tem p (after about 20 m inu tes soln
becomes turbid). I then usually imm erce it in water bath with room temp water since without it temp can rise to 30*C.
I use megas synth, though i let it sit in room tem p for 24h (insted of 2h).
IPN May 24th, 2003, 02:15 PM

S o m ething weird just happened..
I t o o k 2 8 g o f H M T A , 1 0 0 m l of 35% H2O 2 and 40g of citric acid, first I added the HMTA to the H2O2 then I added th e citric acid
and left.
W hen I cam e back to check if anything had happened I noticed that the beaker where the reaction was going on wa s covered
i n s o m e sticky yellow goo...
Does anyone know what happened?
EDIT: Ok, now I now what hap pened, this threa d e x p l a i n e d e v e r y t h i n g :

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2227
rp3o8 May 31st, 20 03, 05:0 8 PM

I had a bad dream a while ago; I prep ared HMTD using,
20g Hexamine
5 0 m l 27% H2O2
2 0 m l 30% HCl (IIR C the synthesis I followed called for 30m l)
I had the reaction vessel sitting in an ice bath for two hours with no problems. At this time the ice was getting low but I figured
the water was enough to keep it cool for the rest of the reaction. I cam e back an hour latter to find a cloud of gas (HCl, and
p r o b a b l y f o r m a l d e h y d e a n d a m monia) hovering around the ceiling from where the contents in the reaction vessel had boiled
off.
I m certain the caus e w a s t o o m uch acid and im p r o p e r t e m p e r a t u r e control; 10m l would have been plenty. The only im purities
that I know of were the binder from t h e h e x a m i n e t a b l e ts.
L u c k i l y , t h e s m a l l a m o u n t o f H M T D t h a t h a d f o r m e d d i d n o t d e t o n a t e f r o m the heat!
Macgyver June 1st, 2003, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by rp3o8
I had a bad dream a while ago; I prep ared HMTD using,
20g Hexamine
5 0 m l 27% H2O2
2 0 m l 30% HCl (IIR C the synthesis I followed called for 30m l)
I had the reaction vessel sitting in an ice bath for two hours with no problems. At this time the ice was getting low but I figured
the water was enough to keep it cool for the rest of the reaction. I cam e back an hour latter to find a cloud of gas (HCl, and
p r o b a b l y f o r m a l d e h y d e a n d a m monia) hovering around the ceiling from where the contents in the reaction vessel had boiled
off.
I m certain the caus e w a s t o o m uch acid and im p r o p e r t e m p e r a t u r e control; 10m l would have been plenty. The only im purities
that I know of were the binder from t h e h e x a m i n e t a b l e ts.
L u c k i l y , t h e s m a l l a m o u n t o f H M T D t h a t h a d f o r m e d d i d n o t d e t o n a t e f r o m the heat!
I think that it's not just the amount of acid, you also used too strong acid....
I'd say that about 15% HCl solution should be okay.
But then aga in, for HMTD I really prefer 60-99% acetic acid, for HMTD production. I find it has m uch less potential for runaway
reactions a few hours into the synthesis.
But beware o f citric acid, using citric for HMTD *will* cause a runaway reaction unless proper tem perature control is used
throught the whole process. It's not a question about if, rather a bout when it's about to happen.
Also try to make HMT D in batches usin g a r o u n d 1 0 g o f h e x a m ine (HMTA), m a k i n g b i g g e r b a t c h e s a l s o i n c r e a s e s t h e r i s k o f

runaway reactions.
IPN June 1st, 2003, 03:13 PM

But beware o f citric acid, using citric for HMTD *will* cause a runaway reaction unless proper tem perature control is used
thought the whole process.
If you didn't know the reaction of citric acid with water is endothe rm ic witch LOW ER S tempe rature...
Also the strength of the HCL is not the problem IMO .
nitriees June 2nd, 2003, 01:10 AM

I h a v e m a k e HMTD m ore than 20 tim es, used citric acid or HC L (30%) as catalyse.
The H2O2 i used is 50% in concentration.
By u sing HCL, the HMTD do not precipitate imm ediately, i need to wait fo r a while for it to form and once it start precipate out
from the solution, the reaction is vigorous and difficult to control even in 0 degree celcius salted ice bath.
By u sing citric acid, it is m ore controlable, i add citric acid slowly until the reaction start, the HMTD start to precipitate from
solution, wait for 2 hours for HMTD crystal to finish precipitate.
For m y self, i prefer citric acid as catalyse because it is m ore con trolable to reduce runaway reaction and no need to measure
the quantity, just add until reaction start.
Macgyver June 2nd, 2003, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by IPN
If you didn't know the reaction of citric acid with water is endothe rm ic witch LOW ER S tempe rature...
Also the strength of the HCL is not the problem IMO .
Yes, that is correct.
W ith water that is.
But I happen to have a friend who researched m any different acids for HMTD synth, and he found out that citric acid was one of
the ones most likely to cause runaway reactions when used for HMTD synth.
If you use acetic acid with a conc of 60% or above, you can sim ply mix everything and don't worry about runaway reactions.
I f y o u u s e c o n c e n t r a t e d a c i d a n d a l s o u s e t o o m uch, that is a surefire wa y to m ake sure things go wrong.
I usually use the following mix for HMTD:
10g HMTA
82 ml 60% Acetic Acid (50 ml if you ha ve the 98-99% acid).
25 ml 35% H2O2
There are m any ways to m ake it that work good, and I am not saying this is absolutely the best way. But it has worked reliable
f o r m e m any tim es without an y accidents or problem s.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Failed AP? -archive file
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megalomania October 7th, 2002, 02:58 PM

The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
posted December 21, 2000 08:22 PM
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I tried AP yesterday, using Megolamania's recipe on his explosives page, but cut it in half. I did two batches, the first using 1.5mL of acid and the other I kept at 3mL. The acid I
used w as 75% Phosporic Acid. The hydrogen peroxide is 3% CVS brand (yes I did use 10x the req'd volume, which w ould be 150mL, since the recipe w as cut 50%).
When I was adding the acid, the area the drops w ent in, w ould cloud up, then clear. By the time I added all the acid the mixture was a little cloudy. After 3hrs, the solution was
very cloudy and I saw no crystals. I did keep the container covered loosely w ith a piece of cardboard, the jars w ere set outside out of the w ind, the cover to prevent
contamination.
After 5hrs I still had nothing. So I decided to try again using the same recipe with the original amounts. After 12hrs in the first two batches and 7hrs in the second I could still
smell acetone, so I decided to evaporate some with moving air. I evaporated 2mL of solution from one of the first batches. Remaining w as a minute amount of pasty crystals. I
let them set for about an hour and held a match to them, nothing happened.
It's been over 24hrs for each batch now and I just filtered the full recipe solution, thinking maybe it's so cloudy I can't see anything. Nothing ended up on the filter paper. So I
have 3 glass jars full of a cloudy mixture, the smell of acetone is still evident, though not as much from w hen I started, except for the full recipe batch, in w hich the smell is still
pretty strong.
Am I doing anything wrong and any suggestions?
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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Phosphoric acid may not be strong enough to be a sufficient catalyst to produce AP in 24 hours. w ait like 48 and see what happens. i would suggest you use 32% HCl, i know a
kid who uses this and it w orks fine.
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The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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Will do
I put some of the solution in a water bath to rid any excess acetone. AP is soluble in Acetone right?
I kinda rushed it though, I was outside and thought w hat the heck, I didn't expect much yield anyhow. So I let the acetone boil and used a large enough beaker to get
somew hat of a reflux. After the first boiling range I let the mixture cool down to about room temp. I then put the jar in a ice-salt bath. I then using a pipette transferred 10mL of
the solution to an ice bath, hoping for a precipitate. In either case I got nothing. I have more material sitting outside, will wait and see what it looks like tomorrow.
I'm assuming sense it is said that most acids w ill work that it is H+ that is the catalyst?
Lost
Frequent Poster
Posts: 89
From:
posted December 22, 2000 05:55 AM
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Yes, AP is soluble in acetone. Any mineral acid will work, stay away from organic ones though...
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-Lost
<a href="http://www .noneinc.org" target="_blank"> http://www .noneinc.org</a>
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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Sounds like you didn't cool the reaction properly. You must cool during the entire reaction. Also have some pateince, using 3% peroxide takes three days, and w ith such a small
batch will give little results.
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
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I know someone w ho has a dog whose mother w as the dog of a man whose pastor had a friend whose wife had an uncle who had a son w ho had a friend who had a friend
who had tried to do it with sulfuric acid, and it worked (acording to the father of a friend who knew the wife of the pastor who knew the father of the friend who knew that
guy)...
In low conc., it may not work well, as in low quantities, and may take much time. Just let it for a few days outside, and it should w ork a little.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 649
From:
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Damn Arthis, your connected.
Some acids just suck donkey's when it comes to use as a catalyst in the AP procedure.
Keep the solution cold to prevent the dimer from forming.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried to make AP again with 3%H2O2, instead of phosphoric acid I used sulfuric. I used 300mL 3%H2O2, 3mL H2SO4, and 50mL of acetone. My glass jar set in an unheated
garage for a few hours short of one w eek. The outside temps never rose above freezing nor did the garage.
I can't make out the smell of acetone anymore, but more of a acidic musty odor. The solution is cloudy, but I don't see any crystals.
The sulfuric acid I used is not pure and I'm not sure the concentration. It's actually the quickest source I had, which was a trip to the local hardware store. It's non fuming and it's
sold as drain opener, called liquid fire. I'm sure it has some additives as it's fairly viscous (probably ~600cPs)and a deep purple color.
So is it the acid again? Should I flash off the liquid? It'll be another week before I'll be able to do anything with the liquid, whatever the heck is in it.
I do now have H2SO4, 98% by weight, but plan on obtainging 30% H2O2 b4 I try again.
I feel like a real idiot here, what the hell am I doing w rong? I use a graduated cylinder to measure out everything, use clean glassw are, and cover with parafilm to prevent
contamination. I'm also positive that the solution never once was exposed to temps above 5C, I chilled all ingredients and glass ware.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
posted January 03, 2001 07:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem may be in that you've cooled it too well! Some lab procedures for making AP suggest you heat the reactant vessels with a bunsen to get the reaction going. I and
some ffriends have found that you can "kick start" reluctant AP batches by adding 30-50ml extra acid at once, I guess the heating (un-noticable) is what gets it going.
I too used H2SO4 drain cleaner for my last batch (viscous and purple) and had problems with cloudiness, AP non-appearance etc. I'm switching back to 32% Hcl!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, w hat is your exact procedure, if you don't mind. Do you heat or use extra acid?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use equal parts of 6% h2o2 and nail varnish remover (practically poure acetone), I mix the two in a jar in an ice bath and leave it to chill, I then add 3ml of 32% hcl and stir
for two minutes (I add the acid drop by drop over the whole two minutes), I keep adding 3ml hcl untill I've added 15ml in total, I usually continue string for a few more
minutes. I leave the jar in the ice bath and leave it for three days. Obviously the ice melts, but by then the reaction is over and the water keeps it reasonably cool. I find that if
I do a batch in the morning, by night time the solution is still perfectly clear, then in the next moring all these cyrstals have appeared!
The crystals are usually flaky like snow flakes, but one time I used 18% h2o2 and got giant (upto 1") needles.
I did a rush batch once, I threw all the chemicals into a jar and stuck it into the fridge. Crystals appeared more quickly but it was a very fine pow der and I didn't get as good a
yeild. Course crystals are easier to wash as you can blast them with w ater w ithout fear of them escaping through the filter cloth.
I will try Sofaking's suggested ratios soon with much less acetone, because if AP is soluble in acetone then some of the batch could be "trapped" in the solution.
BTW, I've never had any problems with AP not appearing using HCl, the solution is allways very clear with a layer of crystals on the bottom of the jar and a thinner layer on the
surface.
I think that's about it!
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited January 04, 2001).]
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I always use 2 cups of 3% H2O2, 1/2cup of nail polish remover that is pure acetone (yup same conc. as the stuff in the metal cans but costs less and says 100%pure) and 1/2-
1 cup of 32% HCl I use a quart sized canning jar and I put it in a cooler with
6-8 cups of Ice.
I add more ice every 6-10 hours and I monitor the temp of the bath and make sure it stays about 38-42 degrees Farenheight for 60 hours and then I filter it using a couple
coffee filters. I wash it under tap water (set faucet on low )
I scrape the wet powder onto a piece of contruction paper and let it dry for 10 hours on my bookshelf
I haven't had any problems storing small ammounts of powder (about 5-10 grams) in the open air for a few days.
I was just wondering if it is possible to add to much acid and how long can you store the pow der in open air?
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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Maybe it didn't fail this go around. I just had a friend check out a jar I left set. He said there were quite a few crystals on top and some on the bottom. I can't wait to "play". He
estimated that maybe there was 100g, but he's new to such things so I'm not sure. He's gonna leave it alone till I get over there next w eek. Sweet. It took 2 weeks though.
I did get some 50% w /w Hydrochloric acid that I'll cut to 32%. And have another go at it.
Thanks for all the help.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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i have alw ays heard of kids using 32% concentration HCl and they have never had any problems. the ratios they use go something like this. 2 cups 3% H2O2, 1 cup acetone,
and about half a cup of 32% HCl. this is then set in a cool place to let the reaction complete. within 48 hours all crystals that are to be made, have been made. (like you
mentioned, The Real, some crystals on top, most on bottem with a few suspended in the middle.) The way these chemicals are mixed (in a glass jar) is as follows: the 2 cups
H2O2 is put in the jar followed by the 1 cup of acetone. the half cup of HCl is just dumped in all at once, the mixture gets noticably warm (but not toowarm mind you, just
noticable) this method produces very fine AP crystals. the amount attained, w hen the AP compresses itself due to its own weight, is a little less than a cup of actual AP (maybe a
cup). this is a good yield i would say. pretty economical in my view also.
as for the person who said you might have chilled the reaction too much, i don't think this is possible. i have personnaly seen ice chuncks form in the mixture because the mix
was left next to an open w indow in the w inter. this did not appear to harm the reaction at all. as for the H+ ions being the actual catalyst, i think this is correct.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > 3% compared to 6% H2O2 -archive file
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angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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people have been talking about the great increase in yield from 3% H2O2 to 27%...
i didn't think it would be that much untill i did a bit of an experiment...
as you can see below, the increase in amount between the mound on the left (ap with 3% H2O2) and the mound on the right
(ap with 6% H2O2)..
both these amounts were made by mixing 200ml peroxide (3% or 6%), with 150ml acetone and then slowly adding 50ml
HCl(30%) while mixing with a glass rod...
both these amounts are about 2 cm high.

the ap crystals on the left are large like sugar, but the ones on the right are small like oregano...
---
if i were to mix it a different way, would i get a higher increase in the amount with 3% peroxide...
i use the 3% because i aah.. 'borrow it' from a supermarket.

but the 6% sets me back AU$9.50 for 200ml and i can't steal it because its behind the counter
---
i can't wait untill i get some 27% peroxide
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angelo's place
[This message has been edited by angelo (edited January 01, 2001).]
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
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Xoom doesnt allow direct linking to images...
vcxz
A new voice
Posts: 2
From:
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your using equal amounts of 3% and 6%?
i think the difference in yield with 3% versus 6% is quite predictable. however, i was wondering, is there a significant difference
in yield if one uses twice as much 3% as 6?
-+- vcxz -+-
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
From: somewhere in florida
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I was tired and boared so I uploaded it to my geocities account
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/ap6to3.jpg" alt=" - " />
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited January 02, 2001).]
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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it seems geocities is a good place for a sight...
oh and thanks PYRO500
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"if you can't stand the heat... don't burn yourself"
angelo's place
SofaKing
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Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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The difference in yeild is because you used different amounts of H2O2 !
200ml @ 3% = 6ml H2O2
200ml @ 6% = 12ml H2O2
So there's no diference in yeild for the H202 used.
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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Yeah, SofaKing is right...
But as we see this little experiment, it seems to be clear that the recipe from Makeshift Arsenal isn't the best mix you could
make...
But what about the stability of the ap?
It would be logical if there is no difference, but i would be interested if anyone got stability problems when using 6% H2O2...
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Death stalks silently....
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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there seems to be a difference between the ap...
with the 3% ap, when lit it flashes and it sounds like a bang...
but with the 6% ap, when lit it flames and it sounds like a fwoosh...
so there is a difference in the stability
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angelo's place
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
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Holy shit.... that is some yield. So your saying that the yield on the right was made using 6% H202. Could you please post the
excact procedure you used including brand names please? Or you can email it to me at gelignite20@yahoo.com.au I never
even dreamed of getting that much AP using 6%.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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I think the reason the sensetivity seems different is because of different crytal size. On thing that this does show is that 150
ml of acetone is exessive. Recalling that the proper ratio for TCAP is 50:9 acetone:H2O2 or about 6:1 allowing a slight exess
of acetone. That begin said 72ml of acetone should be used for 200ml of 6%H2O2 and 36ml for 200ml of 3%H2O2. I would
be interested in the weights of the two batches, because the one using 6% should be aporxamatly double that of the 3%.
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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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Could you please tell us the EXACT procedure and products you used?
I had a dream that i used 100mL 30% H2O2, 70mL 100% Acetone, and 30mL 32% HCl and got about 3/4 of your large pile.
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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okay first of all i live in australia so the brand names are different so i'll post it any way...
hold on a sec i'll get a picture of the chemicals together..
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angelo's place
extreme
Frequent Poster
Posts: 102
From:
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Ill think ill send some pictures too but i have to get a camera first, ill probobly borrow one from my friend
Btw, how can i make the camera take a picture exact a charge, detonates?
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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ok here is the pic
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/angelo_tf/chems.jpg" alt=" - " />
from left to right the chemicals are:
- gilseal homecare 6% H2O2 solution 100ml

- Faulding Remedies H2O2 w/w 3% 200ml
- Diggers Hydrochloric acid 300g/L 2.5L
- Recochem Solvent Acetone 100% 1L
----
the process was in a large jar pour in 150ml of acetone, then pour 200ml of H2O2, start stirring before you start pouring 50ml
of HCl in and while you pour it in slowly. keep on stirring for another minute, then put the jar in the fridge...
80 hours later take it out of the fridge and filter it through coffee filters into another jar. then pour water through the filters to
wash the acetone.
-----
this is how i made both amounts of ap...
-----
next time i make ap i am going to use more peroxide... probably 300ml.
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angelo's place
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
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Thanks angelo, I live in Aust and I think stone dose to so we should both be able to get those brands. I use the same types
of peroxide and I used to use Diggers HCl but I ditched it cause I could get cheaper acid. And I also use different acetone. But
I dont think that the brand should make a significant difference in the yield anyway, but I guess it could make a SLIGHT diff.
Could someone please give some advice on the difference that brands can make. Hey stone, email me if ya want so we can
discuss techniques for AP manufacture. Thanks all.
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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this experiment made do my own trial...
i made some ap using your procedure but different brands...i used 12% h2o2 and it was even more ap i got...
it is not dry yet but i will post my results when done....
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angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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you live in australia to. thats good, what state?
nightstalker were did you get your h2o2?
and can either of you guys tell me were i could get some kno3? i live in melbourne(if it helps)
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angelo's place
have a good link? add it here
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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the chems in the us look like this:
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/chemicals.JPG" alt=" - " />
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
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angelo, I dont live in vic so I cant help you there, sorry. Its good to have some people from aust to be able to chat to. Make
things little easier. I'll be trying a batch of AP soon using your method, so I will let ya know how it goes.
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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i get my stuff from a guy who works at a company that fabricates paint... they have 12% H2O2 in containers of 10 L... So
noone cares if 1L is missing... It is easy and very cheap
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Energy84
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: Earth
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Hey, PYRO500, what's Baquacil used for? 27% H2O2 sounds pretty nice compared to my shitty 3%. I even called the
pharmacist in town to ask if he could order some high concentration (30%+) and he said that he hasn't even seen that in a
pharmacy in his 15yrs experience!
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why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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it is non chloriene pool bleach
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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I have never seen that gilseal H2O2, but I have used Fauldings 3% and 6%. I use Diggers HCl(it makes the reaction turn
orange/red when added, other acids dont do this). And I use Diggers Acetone aswell.
Recently, i've been getting 30% H2O2 from the chemist/pharmacy...
I follow the same procedure, pretty much...
Add jar to ice bath, put H2O2 into it and let it cool for a minute, add the Acetone, let that cool for a minute, then add about
3mL of HCl at about 1 minute intervals until 20-30mL are done. This is being stirred all the time.
Then it gets left in the fridge for about 36 hours, and there is a fair amount of AP, i filter it once and keep the solution to put
back in the fridge. The AP is washed several times then left to dry. After 3-4 days i check the solution and there is a little bit
more precipitated, but not much. Most of the reaction is done within 12 hours.
BUT with 100mL 30% H2O2, 70mL 100% Acetone, and 30mL 32% HCl, I STILL get about 75% of your large pile.
angelo - Do you not cool it?
When i have added the acid fast, it has warmed up and i've got a larger yield... but i assume this is the dimer version and i
don't want that.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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Hey, PYRO500. I use the Klean-Strip brand of acetone also. The largest container it comes in is 1qt (for $3.00). Where do you
get yours? How much in in your container? How much does it cost? And where do you get the 95% H2SO4? Just thinking about
switching to Sulfuric Acid (despite the increased % of di instead of tri).
Moderator 8% valign=top> MacCleod

Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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Lowe's used to sell that brand of sulfuric acid,but now they carry a different brand,think it's "Rhoebic";it's got an indicator
added that makes it black,muddy-looking.True-Value carries a drain opener that is clear,concentrated H2S04,which would be
good for applications needing a purer grade acid.
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"There can be only one!"
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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i put the solution in the fridge after stirring..
and about the kno3 it might be the same, as long as its in australia..
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angelo's place
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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I think that'd be why you get more then. You don't keep the reaction cool... I guess you'd have mostly dimer version, and i'd
have mostly trimer version.
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
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Can you get baquacil in Australia??
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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I doubt you'll get that brand, but i'm sure if you go to a pool/spa store they will have non-Cl bleach, which could be H2O2. I'd
check but i don't know of any pool/spa stares around here
$5 for 100mL 30% is pretty expensive.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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you can email them at their location imformation at <a href="http://www.baquacil.com" target="_blank">www.baquacil.com</
a> as for the acetone, I got the gallon for like $9.50 at wal-mart and I got the H2SO4 at buildres square and it is 93% not
95%
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
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Just reading and passing by!
Using 200ml at 3% and using 200ml at 6% is of course not the same to get the same yield you would have to use:
100ml at 6% = 200ml at 3%
or 200ml at 6% = 400ml at 3%.
Now the difference in yields is simply due to the fact you have used twice the amount of one reactant... acetone being use in
large excess. As I have explained once earlier in the newsgroup with more diluted solutions you first have a bigger portion of
your cristals diluted and trown away; you also form preferably the mono and the di aceton peroxyde that are much more
soluble thus they won't react and will result in a loss of reactants and product.
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Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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No matter what Acetone Peroxide(mono, di, tri) it is, it's not soluble in water, is it?
And if your AP is dissolved in the excess acetone, won't the acetone evaporate out anyway?
I filter mine after the reaction seems to stop, but i keep the filtered solution and let it sit for a few days longer to get that little
bit more out. I have left if for 2 weeks before and i could still smell acetone. Will all of the acetone ever evaporate?
[This message has been edited by Stone (edited January 12, 2001).]
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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i have a jar outside full of the liquid...its been there for like 2 months now and i still smell acetone
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Explosives Archive
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
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Aceton is fully soluble in water (HCl and H2O2 does contain a lot of H2O at least 70%, if you use 30% H2O2 and 30%HCl.So
because like like like: aceton will remain always (wel partially in the water).
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angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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actually you can get baquacil in oz... i have already emailed them and they took about a month to reply...
anyway they sell to WATERCO this is the distributer of baquacil products
i have not had the time to look them up an call them...
i'll be gone for the next week so i won't get the chance to call.
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angelo's place
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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PHILOU Zrealone... If the Acetone has AP dissolved into it, will the acetone be soluble in the water? Or will the AP come out of
the acetone?
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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hey all
i am back...
so many posts, so much to read, so much to do....arrggghhh.
i call WATERCO ASAP
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angelo's place
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
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I've just found a poolsuplyer who sells 10 litres of 30%h202 for 500 kr, wich is about
60-70 us$. Thats a pretty good deal
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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what is the name of the product?
or is it in a different language...
i still would like to know where i can get kno3
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angelo's place
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
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It's in a different language, norwegian
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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oh all right then
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angelo's place
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Hey sorry for going off the subject but what do soluble & Yield meen? ::smells a n00bie bash comming on::
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"Oh Sh".::BOOM: :( (later
in front of saint peter))
"it"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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ok,... note to all with word meaning questions:
look up your words at <a href="http://www.dictionary.com," target="_blank">www.dictionary.com,</a> it is sure to have most if
not all the deffs. you cound need there.
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Thanks man Owe you
chaos
A new voice
Posts: 2
From:
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hey angelo i also live in melbourne if you want i can tell you to get some KNO3 and ammonium nitrate.
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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well considering the fact that i can't see your email, i take you just want to ask for it here?
were can i get kno3 from chaos?
i need it... bad
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angelo's place
angelo
Frequent Poster
From:
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i take it you won't tell me, or you have no idea were to get it and wanted to act like a big man...
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angelo's place
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
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Stone:
If aceton is saturated with AP, then it will precipitate with cold water added, yes... but if the volume of water added is too large
(2 times is a good limit-1 vol aceton/1 vol water), then AP will redissolve in it.
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Captain Nuke
A new voice
Posts: 7
From:
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I use 35% H2O2 (30 ml) together with 50 ml Acetone. The acid I use is battery acid, cooked down to 1/3 of its original volume
(4 ml). After 30 mins the jar with the mixture is full with AP. I never tried with 3% or 6% H2O2. I can't find it anywhere.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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that sounds like a movie I just watched!
the main character used 200mL of 30% H2O2,
360mL of Pure Klean-Strip acetone and 40 mL of 32% HCl.
In 2 hours the main character was very suprised to see that he had about half of a quart size jar of finely powdered AP
That is a lot he thought as he realized that his Peroxide was cloudy when he poured it out of the bottle he stored it in.
(should it be? Is Baquacil cloudy?) also when he opened the glass bottle of it, it made a loud hiss
pressurized Peroxide? does that store better?
The main character plans to put it all in a thin walled plastic container and bury it about 2ft. underground and detonate it
electronicly from 20-30 meters.
[ October 07, 2002, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: megalomania ]

PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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baquacil is clear, and that muck ap is enough to blow you up 30 feet high in the air and kill you before you hit the ground
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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sorry, something went awry with my computer and mad it look kinda strange
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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yup that makes a lot of sense PYRO500
im guessing you meant much when you said muck
if im not mistaken you detonated a pound (450g.) at once isn't that a little excessive?
hmmm unless there are rocks or other things like acorns or pine cones in the vicinity
(Im going to bury the container under 2 ft. of sand)
being 60-90ft. away from the blast is fairly safe.
I have been making AP for 8 months but until now I have always used 3% H2O2 and the most i've ever used in one so far is
30 grams.
Don't worry about me man im always safe with the stuff.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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damn! the button fucked up my last post, I would recomend staying behind a tree and or getting about 3 times that distance!
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 63
From: Redding California
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DEFINATELY THREE TIMES THAT DISTANCE, and do it in the middle of nowhere, believe me man do a half pound, its plenty
loud.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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t reason for the hiss is the h2o2 decomposed is transit, I live in the us, my baquacil is clear, and I understand in certain
countries they color stuff to make sure you dont mistake it for water I have always wanted to take a huge amount of ap, put it
in a large tube with one end welded a metal plate over and blow the stuff and try to get an acustic shockwave capable of
knocking people! once I took a homemade firecracker with ap (about a coke bottle cap full(plastic)) and buried it around 3"
underground and it blew the lid 4 feet up and ripped a hole in it!!!!! ap is powerful and dngerous stuff, even in small amounts!
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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so you're saying that the H2O2 decomposed?
why did it make so much high quality AP then?
I had like half of a quart size jar full of it (yikes)
and don't worry I used it in 50 gram ammounts
and the devices had 4" (10 sec.) fuses on them
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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yes 10 seconds is plenty. Its amazing how long it seems after you light that fuse, especially when looking at it. 10 seconds
seems like an hour. So much anticipation i guess. I havent used a fuse in about a month. Im fresh out! All ive been making
lately si 1 gram ap crackers made out of tin foil set off with napalm on top. There actually quite powerful. I punched a hole in
a cat battery, and ripped appart 6" i.d abs pipe (just placed one in a scrap piece and lit it. They are also very loud! sonds like
a rifle.
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Explosives Archive
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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yesterday i detonated a coke cap full of ap whilst standing about 10 metres away, the shit went bang and some how i got a
piece of the lid stuck in my leg...
this fucken hurt, so me being the smart guy i am started to dig the piece of plastic out of my leg with a knife and a pin...
my leg still hurts but it should be okay in a few days
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angelo's place
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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if you want loud, like window shaking loud, simply fill a matchbox with AP, and wrap it in 2 rolls of electrical tape...
detonate with a sparkler...
this also has an amazing damage factor to it..
i taped a box to the drivers window on a car, and it completly gutted the window frame...which can only suggest it was way over
powered for the job...so i'll try a windscreen next time...or...i will strap it to the full tank....
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited January 29, 2001).]
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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Angelo:
HaHaa!!! Ouwchhh that must must hurt how big is the piece of plastic?
I always hide myself behind a tree
look out the next time
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--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 <a href="http://www.section1.f2s.com" target="_blank">http://www.section1.f2s.com</a> Alot off Bombs/

Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a <<Forum>>!!!
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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i always hide but i look at it with my small automotive mirror.
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Explosives Archive
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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i love my %35 h202. Sure it costs $20 for a litre, but its woth it. I get the same volume of ap As there was liquid at the
begining of the reaction. I usually just do a 50/50 acetone/h202 mix. I know thats not the proper mix, but i get the same as if
i adjust the amounts accordingly. i play about $5 for a litre of acetone and the acid is soo cheap i wont even bother adding it
up. That means that i get approximately 2 litres of powder fer $25. That alot cheaper than buying smokeless powder for $25/
lb
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Explosives Archive
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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Yesterday I took a small bit of plastic wrap and put about a plastic bottle cap size ammount of AP in it and wrapped it up
tightly into a ball shape (very little confinement) .
A 3" fuse was inserted and a thin layer of
masking tape around the tightly wrapped AP.
I buried it 3" in the dirt in my backyard
the blast was about as loud as a 12 gauge shotgun and there was a crater about the size of a baseball in the ground.
all that power from a single layer of plastic wrap and lots of noise also!
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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ah, well, one layer of plastic wrap and 3 inches of dirt... the 3 inches, undoubtedly did alot.
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...
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 279
From:
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the plastic was about the size of a bb bullet...
the funny thing was that all the neighbours put their heads over the fence saying "was that you?"
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angelo's place
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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true, the dirt did add to the confinement of it (plastic was just to hold AP in place). I have no neighbors for half a mile (I live
in the middle of nowhere) so I don't have to worry about that.
the thing was about the size of a marble.
I also did a test to see how much AP 10mL of 30% H2O2, 18mL of Klean-Strip Acetone, and 2 mL of 32% HCl would make.
The solution was left to react in a 50mL graduated cylinder that was inside of a pickle jar (quart size) filled with ice and some
water. In 6 hours I had 2/3 of a plastic bottle cap full that was washed and dried for 12 hours on a wad of paper towels 1/4 its
volume of baking soda was then added to it and it was set off unconfined and made a nice fireball.
Yak October 24th, 2002, 03:49 PM

Two questions:
Im making some AP at the moment, its hard to find things around here but ive put in 6% H2O2,Nail Varnis remover (dont
know quanitiys, doesnt state.) and H2SO4.
I was wondering which would make better results H2SO4 or HCL (i think Hydrochloric acid) (sorry im bad at chemistry)
Anyhow i know theres lots of discussions about this but i was going to post on here first.
2nd questions: I know this topic is old but is there any working links for the pictures or any links on making AP with detailed
pictures?
Thanks for any replys
ShockWave October 24th, 2002, 04:46 PM

Dude, the post above you contains THE link for all your detailed homemade explosives.
Yak October 24th, 2002, 05:07 PM

Yes ive been on there (megalomania right) and i cant find any pictures. but there is tons of infomation which is more then
amazingly helpful, i love tht webby but i cant find any with pictures of AP which is useful
Anyhow i will keep serching.

well, I can say the same thing again, "on the post above you, which is from me, you can see pictures of making AP, but don't
make AP with my procedure, it seems to be dangerous because the high temp. or keep the temp low.
PhRaZMAkInEtIcS October 26th, 2002, 01:37 PM

I just can't imagine someone giving 60$ for 10 litres of 30% H2O2.It's just abnormal for me.The town i live in has two
chemical suppliers and both of them sell it for less than a dollar(0.706$ according to todays exchange rates :) ).I just don't
know why you people find it so difficult to get H2O2 at highter concentrations.
This one of the few things i like about my country.The rest about it
just...sux(excluding women,and weapon politics :p )
Yak November 2nd, 2002, 11:33 AM

I know there are alot of pictures but none of the pictures work on this topic (exept one) so I though I would add my pictures:
First one is the chemicals:
I used: 100% Acetone
6% Hydrogen Peroxide
Drain Magic (92% sulphuric acid)
<a href="http://12th.8m.com/AP/alljpg.jpg" target="_blank">http://12th.8m.com/AP/alljpg.jpg</a>
Second picture is the Acetone Peroxide after 72 hours (3 days)

(oh and the pictures taken on a seat my cat likes to sleep on note the cat hair everywhere)
<a href="http://12th.8m.com/AP/oneclosejpg.jpg" target="_blank">http://12th.8m.com/AP/oneclosejpg.jpg</a>
And another view of it
<a href="http://12th.8m.com/AP/onefarjpg.jpg" target="_blank">http://12th.8m.com/AP/onefarjpg.jpg</a>

---
Edited the pictures cant be remote linked :(
--
edit again:
The mix I used is:

150ml 6% H2O2
50ml 100% Acetone
5ml 92% H2SO4
[ November 02, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Yak ]
Korfaction November 2nd, 2002, 12:12 PM

always amazed that topics on AP never match the title...
To conclude, using more concentrated H2O2 makes the reaction shorter to finish, and you get a little more product. (not much
if you let your batch reacting for enough time)
btw, i've never heard about buying less than 100% acetone...
acetone is acetone ! :rolleyes:
Yak November 2nd, 2002, 12:25 PM

Well most are about 97-99% Acetone because of impuritys but you can.
Nail polish is about 70% i think and that doesnt work for Acetone Peroxide.
Edit:
I always like seeing pictures of AP and especially the pictures of it been exploded.
I know theres lots of pictures but nearly all of them are different in some way and its intresting finding out why some produce
less AP (eg temp or % of chemicals)
If you dont like the pictures dont look if you dont want to.
[ November 02, 2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Yak ]
Anthony November 2nd, 2002, 01:24 PM

Nail Varnish Remover does work for AP. It's admitedly not the best and you have to pick a good brand, but it can be used in a
pinch.

Does it?
I tryed it the first time i made AP and nothing happened at all, it did have acetone in it as well, ah well you win some you
loose some
knowledgehungry November 2nd, 2002, 04:00 PM

I have succesfully made AP with liquid fire (sulfuric ?%), 3% H2O2 and nail polish remover. I used
the CVS brand nail polish remover (make sure it does not say Acetone free <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> ) I doubled the amount of acetone normally used, the results were not as good as with pure Acetone but they
were not bad. Just letting you guys know it is possible.

When I tryed it with nail polish remover it did nothing for about 6 days and then about 20 white crystals appeared on the
bottem, looking like salt ut didnt disolve so i threw that batch because i didnt know what they were/if they were dangerous.
Korfaction November 3rd, 2002, 05:44 AM

Hi. maybe that your nail polisher contained some stuffs that allowed more AP to dissolve in the solution, maybe not enough
acid, or some impurities reacted with acid, it may have slowed the reaction. (little acid -> little catalysis).
btw i don't see anyone that don't want your pictures. The more the better it is. I should take some too...
Yak November 3rd, 2002, 04:55 PM

Well i did use weak sulphuric acid (i had no drain cleaner so i used battery acid bolied down but i think it was mainly water,
might explane :D )
Ill be taking some photoes of the explosion if i can but if not ill just take a photo of the blown up film canaster if i use that.
But i really dont think ive got much, i burnt some today (tiny lump) and a flame about 7cm high nearly burnt my hair, by the
time im 30 ill be bald from this stuff :)
kingspaz November 3rd, 2002, 07:02 PM

'if not ill just take a photo of the blown up film canaster if i use that'
you won't find ANYTHING left from the film canister. maybe a couple of little pieces but nothing worth showing :)
Yak November 4th, 2002, 04:16 PM

As i found out today when i blew it up.
There was a white powder on the edges but i think its just some tiny bits left.
The hole where the fuse was was burnt abit and the lid i couldnt find.
The one thing i DID have was no hearing in my ear for about 5 mins which is a weird feeling.
---------------------------------
thats because a film canister of AP is ALOT, learn from your mistakes - kingspaz
[ November 04, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Korfaction November 5th, 2002, 08:54 AM

About the sulfuric acid you used: i think (at least here) the conc. of sulfuric acid used in cars is about 30-40%. So it should
have worked rather fast anyway. That's not the point (to my mind).
How much AP can you pack in a film canister (not too much packed of course) ? Between 18-25 g i think.
I've tried to detonate a garden (metal) door with 7g of AP once. Never found out the lock...
NERV November 5th, 2002, 03:42 PM

Actually if you use allot of pressing you could get up to 50 grams of AP into a film can, without presing you can get about 25-
30. Personally I think that would be suicidal though I wouldnt use more than 20 grams of AP in any one place, and even that
amount makes me nervous.
EDIT: spelling
[ November 05, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]

Oh sorry kingspaz i didnt mean use a full film can of it, FAR from it, i used about 1/2 teaspoon worth (Im really sorry i dont
know how much that is, about 2g at most i think) but still made a big bang.
Well im going to make some more tomorro with this <a href="http://www.geocities.com/angelo_444/3to6.html"
target="_blank">meathod</a>
I think the page states:

"1. 200ml of peroxide a poured into a large glass jar.
2. then 150ml of acetone was poured in.
3. then, whilst stirring 50ml of hydrochloric acid was poured in slowly.
4. the mixture was then stirred for about a minute or two.
5. then the mixture was put in the fridge.
6. 80 hours later, the mixture was taken out of the fridge and poured
through a filter into another glass jar."
And if you look at the picture the 6% is quite alot for 6%, when I used my 6% i got about as much as the pile of 3% :( but
hopfully i will get somthing nearly like the 6% this time :D
kingspaz November 6th, 2002, 06:37 PM

yak, acetone is in big excess in that formula and will dissolve some of the AP so not all will crystalise out...most will but you
want the best yield, right?
i would work it out but i'll just take a guess, try 100ml of acetone.

Ok 100ml it is.
But if i did use 150ml and some of the AP dissolved into the acetone if i let the acetone evaporate wouldnt it leave behind the
remaining AP (There would be a H20+H2SO4 mix still left in there but AP doesnt disolve in water and H2SO4 shouldnt be a
problem, i can nutralise that when washing the AP)
I suppose whats the point in using 150ml when i could use 100ml and get the same effects but ill trust a mod because im like
a child who cant talk compared to there knolage <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> (sad but true...) (that
doesnt mean im dumb, means there clever :D )
Anyhow ill set it all up tomorrow depending on whats happening.
Ill post bk soon with whats happening :D

yak, yes you could let it evapourate but the problem with that is once the acetone is in the solution it'll take a week or so
before it has evapourated to any significant extent by which time some of the AP you have made will have sublimed. HMTD is
better, its reasonably storable unlike AP.

Oh ok, i suppose ill just use the 100ml and not let it evaporate then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Im thinking of making HMTD, but i need to look for hexamine which ill look for on Saturday because im going into town then.
I dont think it will be too hard to find because theres lots of walking shops/hardware shops here but i dont know because
theres lots of topics saying where can they get it from.
Also my friend who i blew up my AP with wants to start making explosives as well, hes going to make AP then we can make
them together (Ive made him serious into safty because before he wasnt and now i think it will be quite fun, ill look out he
doesnt get converted into kewl (kewls dont deserve a capital :p ))
*edit* spelling

yak, make sure you don't get comfortable making it. thats when its unpredictable nature will strike you down. also don't make
large amounts. 15g is enough for 10 caps. so if you make a 2g batch you have one cap ready for use. the more you have the
more chance of an accident and the bigger the consequences. make sure your friend is aware of this also.

I know, i think im getting relaxed about making it (well , not making ti because ive made it once! but when i think about it i
dont think about it been unsafe and i really dont know why, i dont want to but ill learn over time (loosing hearing in ears ect))
*im going to mend my ways and be more careful, im careful in safty of making but not in handling AP and its very careless*
Anyhow, i WAS going to make it today but i went to the pharmacy near my school today and i found to my great supprise when
i was serching for my friends 6% H2O2 (hes gonna make AP) i found 9%!
Its not much (6p more then 6%) so should i still use the same amounts as above? (If you think about it there should be
ALOT more then the 6% pile because 3%tiny-6%3X bigger pile-9%..who knows <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> )
Anyhow ill make it tomorrow, ive got 400ml of 9% H2O2 and about 250ml of 6% H2O2.

well what i would do is use the same amount as i suggested above. i think i suggested too much anyways :(
yak, you should learn some chemistry i think. it will benefit you and save your ass in the long run. do a search inside links and
literature for a topic called somehting lime 'chemistry links'.
i posted a couple of decent links which should help including a chemistry for beginners page.

Well im not too bad with chemisty, i do know some things but ill look at them links because it will be great to improve and
such.
Korfaction November 10th, 2002, 06:18 AM

You really wanna buy your H2O2 from pharmacy ? You are RICH guy, it's fucking expensive ! They sold me (years ago, but
price doesn 't change much) 9% H2O2, 125 mL, about 5 .
At a drugstore, I can have 130vol (~30-35 %), 1L for the same price.
As acetone is cheap, you may have really cheap AP in larger quantities.
And even for 3-6% you may buy it cheaper in a drugstore. Just order it.

It isnt that expensive 76p, well its ok because this is the only H2O2 I can get without ordering off the internet.
Anyhow i made the 9% H2O2 and its basicly full to the brim with AP.
And I would say there was about as much as the 6% H2O2 picture but its only been 24hours and im leaving it for 80 hours.
(tomorrow im going to drain it and get the AP out then leave the remaining solution to (hopfully) make more AP :D )
Its really scary because its about 1 1/4 cans worth of AP and its only been 24 hours and as people have found out, that
amount kills/takes bits of body parts away.
But ill use it safty (as much saftly you can get wioth AP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) with only film
canasters 1/2 full of AP and no more.
Ill post pictures ASAP.
Stone November 13th, 2002, 04:58 AM

Woah! That was a long time ago :)
I lost the forum for a while.
Any Aussies still on here?

My AP is still drying, its nearly fully dryed, it will be by tomorrow.
Im planing to detonate it by saturday (hopfully on thursday)
I might post some pictures depending on if my digi camara is fixed by then.

Ill post back what happens soon :)
--
What do you mean "that post was a long time ago" stone?
Stone November 13th, 2002, 03:38 PM

My posts that were in the archive that megalomania posted.
They were from January 2001.
Da Boom Doctor November 13th, 2002, 03:46 PM

Hey Yak!
I'm only on my second batch aswell! However I ordered my chemicals from a supplier - and as Korfraction says its much
cheaper! Plus you don't have to order on the net - simply look on the labels of bottles/jars of chemicals at school and they
should have the address on the schools chemical supplier on them - then order away!
I asked this in the thread "APAN" but have had no answers after a further 8 posts, so i'l ask here.
Does washing AP crystals with tap water rather than de-ionised water effect the AP in anyway?
By how much does the power of AP vary from when it is damp to when dry?
Also can anybody recomend a fast way of drying AP?
Thanks :)
Ps - Yak I dont think it would matter to much wether or not the Kewl was Smoking while he danced on AP or not - one things
for sure he wouldnt be doing to much dancing in the future! :D
[ November 13, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Da Boom Doctor ]
carbonated November 13th, 2002, 05:44 PM

I think washing AP in ether or maybe alcohal will reduce drying time. You could always add a dessicant and see how that works.
Why not make it a day or two earlier to compensate for drying time?
As far as power differences, 'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure wet AP is less powerful. I could barely hear damp AP(a low
thump), but dry AP was a nice loud crack.
One uses regular tap water to wash AP, and uses that said tap water to make the bicarb solution too. One has done this for
anout five batches. One of the mods washed HMTD with tap (Anthony?), so I'm sure its fine.
AnthraX November 13th, 2002, 05:59 PM

Does anybody know where i can buy Acetone in the UK i have my H202 i just need the acetone and Acid does anyone know
where i can buy the Acid or Acetone in England thanks :)
Anthony November 13th, 2002, 09:02 PM

Yes, I don't use distilled/deionised water. Tap water is good enough IMO. There's more to worry about being left in your
peroxide than a bit of calcium carbonate!
Da Boom Doctor November 14th, 2002, 01:48 PM

Thanks! - I guessed that it would be ok to use normal tap water to wash the AP - so thats exactly what I did last night - I left
the tray of AP crystals to dry on my sisters window sill - hmmm its ok shes at uni!!
I also gave the crystals a good wash with Na2CO3 solution - as I intend to make a NaClO3/AP mix tommorow night - which
should be fun!!
I was wondering how i should handle AP while "cutting" the crystals and packing a cap - any info on the methods that you guys
use would be welcomed - particulary ones which increase the saftey aspect!
Also has anyone tried NaClO3/AP before, can you recommend cap sensitive percentage compersitions?
Also what amount would you use as a impressive test batch? (for det in my back garden!! :rolleyes: )
Acetone in UK - hmmmm! You can usualy buy 50ml bottles from chemists but thats pretty pricey (approx 1) - you could try
and buy it from say a B&Q warehouse id imagine it to be used as a solvent for paint related things. You could always result to
using nail varnish remover but that will lower yeild a bit i would supose!
Thanks :)
[ November 14, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Da Boom Doctor ]
Ho ju November 14th, 2002, 04:00 PM

Leaving your AP in the windowsill might not be the best idea. I wouldn't doubt direct sunlights ability to set off your little
expolisive there. When making a cap or doing anything with AP i always seperate what i am working with from the main pile.
Take the gram or so needed for the blasting cap from the main pile and store it somewhere else. That way if the shit your
using accidently explodes it won't set off the larger heap. Be aware of all types or heat sources and elecetricity. Especially when
you have a large mass of AP exposed to the elements. When ever i have come in contact with this stiff i have always handled
it using paper. pour the AP from piece to piece. I usually keep it spread out as much as possible. If it ignites and it is not
compacted in anyway you will only get a nice size fireball. Piled up on itself or in a container of some sort and you could lose
fingers. If you have the resources try and set of your main charge using a cap that hasn't been compressed. This way if it
works you don't have to risk pressing the cap yourself. If you need to though be very careful. never get comfortable with a
certain pressure or way of doing things. Try and press the cap remotly, away from yourself with a series of pullies or some shit.
but above all have fun, and if you lose a finger remeber you have 9 more. peace

Sensitivy should be roughly equal to that of APAN. So 10% AP should do, you could use 20% if you wanted to be sure.
Mix the NaClO3 and AP using the diaper method, as used for mixing flash. You really can't get much safer than that.
An unpressed cap should work, although I can't guarantee it, as I've never really bothered playing with unpressed caps.

Hehe well fag or not there should be the same amount of damage to his legs.
AnthraX - Well I got 5L of Acetone from a place in UK (I dont know if im allowd to state where) but a good look on <a
href="http://www.google.co.uk" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk</a> and you should find somthing.
I got 5L but i dont know if you want that much, anyhow its not too expensive, It was about 12 for me (5 to get delivered).
Also Ive got my AP and put it on a tray to it will dry faster, it was on the t-shirt I drained it with but that was still wet.
Its been horrid and rainy here in UK at the moment so i dont think thats helping the drying time but I really dont want to bring
it inside (its in my garage at the mo.) but the area around its compleatly dry so hopfully it wil be ready by saturday.
My digi camara works :) so hopfully I will take a photo of all the AP I got + where i blow it up.
I cant deside on to:
1. blow it up below the ground and hopfully make a creater
2. Do it on a stainless steel pipe (In park and near houses so I dont know...)
3. Out on the common near me on a tree say but only problem is that the Army owns that area so its unsafe
AnthraX November 14th, 2002, 07:22 PM

Yeh thanks alot for the help guys :)
Yak December 2nd, 2002, 01:26 PM

Right well this forums been down for ages!
Anyhow i did explode my AP, rapped up in about 3-4 layers of tape and in a toilet tube (inside of your toilet roll) then i
electricly ignited it, i was hidden behind this wall thing (it was in the playground), the AP was put in a tiny hole and wasnt
covered then I blew it up-
There was a LOWD bang and i heard lots of little bits of woodchips land all around me (it is on the playground) then i looked
at the hole, its about as big as a tennis ball, with a area of no woodchips about 10cm around it.
Also I found out how much I had, it was just under 100g , about 93g I would say, ive kept the caseing it was in and I will take
a photo soon and post it on here. :D
kingspaz December 2nd, 2002, 05:31 PM

yak, in response to an earlier post, its best not to reveal you chemical sources as there are k3\/\/_|Z lurking around who could
ring up your source asking for some azeton for a |3OoMB.
in response to your most recent post, 93g?!?!?! what the fuck are you doing?! why not just use 1g and the rest ANNM? its
MUCH safer and more powerful...christ....keep the risk minimal!
Yak December 4th, 2002, 05:41 PM

I didnt say where i got my chemicals from i think, i hope.
I know that theres kewls trying to get them etc, anyhow I hope I was been helpful to who ever need the google.com link <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Anyhow AN is AMAZINGLY hard to get over here (I dont know if your from UK or not) - I dont think it will be too hard to get
more into the country but I live near a town which there are lots of farming land nearby and quite a farming comminity but I
guess i havent looked hard :(
Ive had at least three serches for AN containing fertiliser, but only found other things i didnt want + I dont know if they will sell
me due to me been under 18.
If I had sources to AN there would be no question about using it instead of AP, well ill have another look this Saturday.
I must post pictures of the remains of the AP thing, ill take them tonight and hopfully be on here by the end of the week.
--
Edit
--
Ahh what do you know here it is:

<a href="http://hwminator.homestead.com/files/APblast.jpg" target="_blank">http://hwminator.homestead.com/files/
APblast.jpg</a>
The top one is the toilet paper roll and what it SHOULD look like and the bottem one is "after", ofcourse this photo is fake and
I dreamed it last night...
[ December 04, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Yak ]
kingspaz December 4th, 2002, 06:28 PM

yak, yes i'm from the uk. AN can actually be had quite easily. don't talk to me about hard to find chemicals, i guarantee i live
in the hardest place to get chemicals possible!!!
if you are near a city then thats good. it means lots of chemists to try. look for something called 'instant cold pack'. they are
used to treat sport injuries so theres always going to be some supply of them somewhere unless the city is some sort of weird
place where nobody does sport ever.

Sport, yuck i h8 sport <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Anyhow I did has a breif look for "Instant cold Packs" but all i could fine (and I asked the shop assistant for them) and it was
some sort of cooling gel for kids with a fever, I dont think it was AN.
As I said ill look on Saturday, I know its in LOTS of topics and ill look there as well, but because your from the UK what should
I look for other then Cold packs, You could give me the name of the product but i dont know if you want to etc
Well hope you like the pic

~Yak

Hello all, sorry for the double post but its kinda about AP, theres lots of other threads kinda like this but most are old and I
might as well post in here.
Its kinda cold here now and due to the sun setting about the time I get back from school, and its winter so its freezing so its
kinda more pratical to do it when the days start getting longer, so I havent used AP for about a month now ( :()
Well onto what Im gonna say, ive found a plentiful source of Potassium Permanganate, Well I say plentiful which it is but its
damn expensive, 1 for 25g!! but hey, I dont want to order much because its not very fun and I could spend the money on
much greater things eg Nitric acid.
Well as you all know AP is oxygen deficient and Potassium Permanganate (ill call it PP for short) is a oxydiser, well if I mixed
AP with PP would it work or is PP slow to react?
Well any replys are welcome :) (also APPPP would sound weird :) )
*I was thinking a 75/25 ratio, 75 AP , 25 PP*
*Also offtopic but ive borrowed about 2m of Mg ribbon from school which would be handy to light things, say instead of a fuse
but the burn time is unreliable*
VX December 18th, 2002, 07:52 PM

I've found that Mg ribbon actually makes a fairly bad fuse. The main reason, other the unpredictable burn rate is the fact that
it is dam near impossible to ignite with a match or lighter (although windproof lighters were a lot better). However there is also
the problem that once you have the stuff lit it has a tendency to just go out a few inches later for no apparent reason.
Over the next few days I will try be trying <a href="http://www.pyrouniverse.com/fuse.htm" target="_blank">this</a> . I've not
seen this variation before, it seems like a good idea that should work very well. I have high hopes :)
[ December 18, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: VX ]
Anthony December 19th, 2002, 01:52 PM

You should have seen it before - common as muck and has been used for centuries!
Avoid bending it though, the BP coating will crack and fall off, making for an unreliable fuse.
VX December 19th, 2002, 02:43 PM

Ah well, I must just go around with my eyes closed :o
I have obviously seen the same idea with one piece of string, just not with the two pieces parallel to each other.

Ive done a tad bit of reserch and ive came apon chemicals which are incompatable and this is in the list:
peroxides, permanganates
Acetone Peroxide and Potassium Permanganate
I think it would increase the sensitivity which wouldnt do wonders to an already very sensitive explosive.
If no one has any knowlage of this APPP thing ill do some tests and make a new topic etc but ill look around first and not look
stupid for making a new mixture thats already very old or summit.
Well have a great time people, nearly X-Mas!
(edit: spelling, sorry im a bit stoned)
[ December 19, 2002, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Yak ]
matjaz January 20th, 2004, 06:01 AM

Is this off topic or do percentages higher than 3% of 6% go here as well?
I dreamt of some AP production with different H2O2 percentage. Dreams start with pure acetone and 12% hair bleach. To each
batch 1.5ml of HCl was added and temperature held between 0C and 10C. The amounts of AP reported were measured to +-
0.05g after bicarb and neutral wash and drying completely at room temp in a thin layer for 5 hrs.
10ml acetone + 14ml H2O2 (left at 12%) ---HCl---> 2.0g AP (in 72 hours since not much was there after the first day)
10ml acetone + 14ml H2O2 (boiled to 7ml, ~24%) ---HCl---> 2.45g AP (after 24 hours it thickened a lot and seemed to stop
reacting)
10ml acetone + 14ml H2O2 (boiled to 5ml, ~33%) ---HCl---> 3.65g AP (after 15 hours, since I was away, may have been
faster, I don't know)
(Even HCl goes dropwise with the last one to keep the temperature low!)
That gives 20%, 25% and 35% yields, respectively. It's a real pleasure getting all that thick stuff in the beaker. :) It's almost
like dough.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > plastic explosive -archive file
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aussie_kid
A new voice
Posts: 36
From: Australia
posted October 30, 2000 05:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if anyone knew of any plastic explosives that are easy to make out of common ingredients and that can be detonated with AP. I saw something in Anarchist
cookbook about extracting potassium chlorate from bleach using potassium chloride. i heard that anarchist cookbook often leave out safety information so i don't know whether
to try this one. any help please!
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i don't wanna start a flame or nuffin, but
doesn't this question sound aw fuly familiar?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sadsakjoel:
I read about the plastic explosives from bleach file in Jolly Roger's cookbook and various other places. Some say that u can make potassium chlorate by mixing bleach with
potassium chloride.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..like...is this just too conincidental?
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 290
From: 11 Dow ning Street, London, England
posted October 30, 2000 02:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree; these books have a lot to answer for. Aussie kid, don't take what these books says too seriously otherw ise you'll end up being Kewl (or dead).
MrReTaRdEd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 97
From: im not saying
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
haha I asked this question at the old forum. I asked alot of other Jolly Rodger/Exodus crap. But no one ever answered the question, I just got laughed at. Will this method work
or is this just another way to kill off kewl bombers.
aussie_kid
A new voice
Posts: 36
From: Australia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok so the bleach thing is dangerous
back to the question w hat is the easiest high explosive that can be made with easily accessible ingredients and detonated with ap?
ANNM looks easy but i don't know where to get nitromethane. is it easy to get in australia? or can it be easily synthesized?
Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nitromethane is sold at hobby shops for petrol powerd R/C cars i dunno if they sell it pure or not cause no shop in my town sells it
if it's not sold pure could you just buy the fuel for the R/C cars and use that or w ould the other impuritys stuff it up?
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
deleting post.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited March 19, 2001).]
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
vaseline and potassium chlorate burns fast, but it is a low explosive like SC+ sugar. Since vaseline burns and the potassium chlorate is a very good oxydizer, it burns fast but not
enough to make a high explosive.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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I make KCL03 that way, except I use a saturated solution of NaCLO3 instead of bleach. It shouldn't be dangerous if you're careful, hot 100% HNO3 is far more dangerous.
<a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/indexEN.html" target="_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/indexEN.html</a>
A good site with tonnes of information on chlorate/perchlorare synthesis including thermal decomposition of hypochlorites (which is w hat you're after)
Potassium chlorate/vaseline is a high explosive, a "chedite" if I'm not mistaken,. it is a pain in the arse to detonate and has a very low det. velocity. Using it as a low explosive
is a bit pointless considering many other fuels can be added to KCLO3 that have much better properties.
Straight sodium chlorate can be detonated by itself, can KClO3 do the same?
Bander
A new voice
Posts: 29
From:
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Well, here's one method. Credit goes to Kitchen Imrovised Plastic Explosives #1 and nbk2000's w ebsite/pdf. Most of this is not my own content.
It's not the bleach formula because I find this one much more effective and cheaper.
Plastic Explosives From Swimming Pool Chlorinating Compound (HTH)
This explosive is a chlorate explosive from bleach. This method of production of potassium or sodium chlorate is easier and yields a more pure product than does the plastique
explosive from bleach process. In this reaction the H.T. H. ( calcium hypo-chlorate - CaClO ) is mixed w ith water and heated with either sodium chloride (table salt, rock salt) or
potassium chloride (salt substitute). The latter of these salts is the salt of choice due to the easy crystalization of the potassium chlorate. This mixture will need to be boiled to
ensure complete reaction of thc ingredients.
Obtain some H.T.H. swimming pool chlorination compound or equivalent (usually 65% calcium hypochlorite). As with the bleach is also a dissociation reaction. In a large pyrex
glass or enameled steel container place 1200 g. H.T.H. and 220 G. potassium chloride or 159 g. sodium chloride. Add enough boiling water to dissolve the powder and boil this
solution. A chalky substance ( calcium chloride ) will be formed. When the formation of this chalky substance is no longer formed, the solution is filtered while boiling hot. If
potassium chloride was used, potassium chlorate w ill be formed. This potassium chlorate will drop out or crystalize as the clear liquid left after filtering cools.These crystals are
filtered out when the solution reaches room temperature. If the sodium chloride salt w as used this clear filtrate ( clear liquid after filtration ) will need to have all water
evaporated. This w ill leave crystals which should be saved.
These crystals should be heated in a slightly w arm oven in a pyrex dish to drive off all traces of water ( 40 - 75 deg.C. ). These crystals are ground to a very fine pow der ( 400
mesh ).
If the sodium chloride salt is used in the initial step, the crystallization is much more time consuming. The potassium chloride is the salt to use as the resulting product w ill
crystallize out of solution as it cools. The powdered and completely dry chlorate crystals are kneaded together with vaseline in plastique bowl.
ALL CHLORATE BASED EXPLOSIVES ARE SENSITIVE TO FRICTION, AND SHOCK, AND THESE SHOULD BE AVOIDED.
If sodium chloride is used in this explosive, it will have a tendancy to cake and has a slightly lower detonation velocity. This explosive is composed of the following:
Potassium or sodium chlorate 90 %

Vaseline 07 %
Aluminum Powder 03 %
The detonation velocity can be raised to a slight extent by the addition of 2 - 3 % aluminum powder substituted for 2 - 3 % of the vaseline. The addition of this aluminum will
give this explosive a bright flash if set off at night which w ill ruin night vision for a short w hile. The detonation velocity of this explosive is approximately 32OO M/sec. for the
potassium salt and 290O M/sec. for the sodium salt based explosive.
[Edit] Also, I've read sources that say that this explosive can be detonated with a a number #3 blasting cap, I find it takes significantly more, or at least it w ould if I w ere to use
it illegaly like that...which I don't Another note: This explosive should be packed to a density of 1.3g/cc. To achieve this, measure the water your container can hold, then
multiply that by 1.3. That is the wieght in grams you need to put in the container. And yet another footnote, it's slightly hydroscopic, make sure to dip the finnished product in
molten wax.
[This message has been edited by Bander (edited October 31, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited November 01, 2000).]
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
posted November 01, 2000 01:26 AM
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aussie kid, after the shit you get, soon you decide to stick with AN and other stuff that's common knowledge which can just be read about from good sources.
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All there is to fear is your own co-ordination
Juggernaut
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: Ft. Collins ID usa
posted November 07, 2000 06:15 PM
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HI!!!
i ams teh ideots, pls cals me stupads. thx
[This message has been edited by vehemt (edited November 07, 2000).]
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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lol....nice vehemt
Azazel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From: ...
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aussie kid if ure from VIC i might be able to help ya w it a Nitro MEthane supplier who gets 99.8% shit
hmmmmmmm i have help others from this forum get da shit man
hmmmmm but yeah if ya want to find out more
icq
18999821
back to study !
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Azazel:
aussie kid if ure from VIC i might be able to help ya w it a Nitro MEthane supplier who gets 99.8% shit
hmmmmmmm i have help others from this forum get da shit man
hmmmmm but yeah if ya want to find out more
icq
18999821
back to study !
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Any help in NSW?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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could just buy some chlorate from a supplier, skylighter, pyotek, etc
acid_boy
A new voice
Posts: 3
From:
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if you want to buy nitromethane just got to a hobby shop and ask for it, if they ask w hy you want it (not that they should) just tell them that you w ant to mix your own feul
jam007
A new voice
Posts: 36
From:
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I am jsut the kewleST e|_itE bomberz here. Fear my styro-4 explosivE.
What a lame. Congrats, you've made nampalm. And not even good napalm at that. Go back to TOTSE. Don't EVER quote anything from there here.
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited December 03, 2000).]
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
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hummm, melting fuel and styrofoam will give you napalm. If you mix fuel w ith oil, so w ill it. Napalm is something not liqui, not solid, and w hich burns not very well, so it burns
for a long time. Neither the one with oil neither the one w ith styrofoam w ill explode, and I don't think the mix of these two will explode.you have just made napalm. If you add
an oxydizer you can make a low explosive, but napalm w ill just act as fuel.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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NEVER post anything from &TOTSE, it is pure bullshit and just shows people how dumb you are for actually thinking it would work/not be amazingly danergous or just plain
dumb.
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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Don't you think that only posting information that you KNOW(from experience) w orks would be more helpful?
adidis
A new voice
Posts: 14
From: east bay mental institution
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arthis what you have is not napalm, it is a real shitty version that is not worth making. It is a wast of perfectly good gas and packing styrofoam. What do you do w hen you run
out of styrofoam cups?
military napalm, having some of that could keep my happy for a little while.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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This has been covered before but isn't military napalm made from gasoline,styrene, and benzene. Making the packing penut and gas thing a little less stupid.
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Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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The gasoline and styrofoam thing has alw ays worked good for me. It does wonders w hen you fill a tuna can with it and stick an M-80 or a cratermaker in it. Tennis balls filled
with it are fun too...
~Zero the Inestimable
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The A Files
{Link is a direct download.}
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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Hey SofaKing i heard that Military Napalm is Gasoline+Phosphorus ,,,So w hen people get Napalm`d they jump into the w ater and the burning stops because there is no oxygen
and w hen they com out of the water it starts burning again.
--==DarkAngel==--
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Go to Section1 <a href="http://www .section1.f2s.com" target="_blank"> http://www.section1.f2s.com</a> Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1091
From: Guess
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Napalm B (currently military issue) is 50% styrene, 25% gasoline, and 25% benzene (although you can use acetone). All percentages by w eight.
Burns three times hotter and ten times longer than the original napalm. Add some AP and AN (as described in my PDF file) and you'll have exploding napalm.
Regular gasoline with enough styrofoam dissolved in it to make a thin syrup is perfectly usable as napalm.
The phosphorus in military napalm comes from the igniter used to scatter and ignite it. A rod of TNT surrounded by WP runs the length of the napalm canister. When it goes off it
scatters and ignites the WP which in turn ignites the napalm.
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"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to dow nload the NBK2000 website PDF.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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Even neater is too load up a shotshell that throws a blob of sawdust soaked napalm. Very short shelf life (make it now, use it yesterday type thing), but it's a hell of a round.
20yds max feasible range to start anything on fire, 10yds accuracy is still enough to hit a garbage can. I've thought about using a 10ga scattergun to throw 3/4" by say 4-8"
long full of napalm and and something to disperse and ignite it with. Perhaps a pipe w ith a arrow shaft cut to length in it full of BP, surrounded by napalm, all inside the pipe.
viper01
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: UK
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Why not buy NAPALM
<a href="http://www .napalm.net/" target="_blank">http://ww w.napalm.net/</a>
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Happiness is a big bang!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
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For anyone that's interested:
I'm not entirely sure, but I think the original napalm w as made from NApthalene and PALMatic acid (whatever that is). Napthalene is what's used in some old-style moth balls,
and can be used to make nice fireball effects with a charge of BP to ignite and spread it.
chokster
A new voice
Posts: 16
From: Australia
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I Agree with Mr Cool but it is only one part of the mix.
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 63
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Well... I just got burned at napalm.net.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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A cheap, but less pow erful alternative for making AP putty that I've come up with is mixing Acetone with polystyrene and then mixing in some AP put a fuse or igniter in and
letting the acetone evaporate the ratio is about 40% acetone 20% polystyrene and 40% AP, this is junk however
but they have orange colored nitrocellulose ping pong balls here < a href="http://ww w.ping-pong.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key= 12xPL426&reference= /cgi-bin/
shopper.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction% 26keyw ords% 3Dhappine ss%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DTempl" target="_blank"> http://www .ping-pong.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?
preadd=action&key=12xPL426&reference=/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dhappine ss% 26searchstart%3D0%26template% 3DTempl</a> ates/
SearchResult.htm if you want to make orange colored AP putty

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Volatility -archive file
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Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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Why does it say in all the recipes for AP that you should use it less than 7 days after production? Is it simply because some of
it sublimates, or does it lose DV or energy output?
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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this is dumb shit....
as long as you store it in a closed jar you can hold it for years...
Storing it in aceton is a good thing for larger amounts and longer times cause it won't evaporate (normally you don't recognise
the amount lost by evaporation) and it is not able to detonate while in the liquid... you will loose a bit cause it dissolves in the
aceton but once you have a saturated solution you can add and take what you want..
AP won't loose any DV or power by storing it for a longer time...
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CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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This is dumb shit...
yeah, right, that is real dumb shit... AP really does just vanish into thin air. really, it does. storing it for long periods in or out
of a solvent is suicidal. just make it when you want to use it. there is no point in storing it for longer than like 2 weeks...
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...
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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Ive seen AP left out in the open disappear within a week.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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exactly, AP that doesn't disapear quickly is not pure AP. the pure, "lab grade" stuff has a VERY (that is in... VERY VERY VERY
VERY) short shelf life. use it when you make it. storing it is not conducive to a long life.
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...
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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I have never had any problems with either increased sensitivity or sublimating batches if it was compressed and sealed in a
detonator or similar device. I made my first batch around 1992 and have been using it almost weekly ever since. I rarely use
very large amounts though; usually 0.01 - 1.0 grams. Regarding the sensitivity, I really don't think it's that dangerous -
I have made a lot of explosive munitions for 4.5 and 5.5 mm pellet guns and, unless you use a small amount of
silverfulminate and iron filings in the nose of the pellet, you are not certain of detonation on impact
(120 m/s hardwood target).
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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ok so probably what i have is not pure AP... but why? i used 100% pure chemicals mixed with proffesional laboratory
equipment washed for at least 3 times...
And i can store it for over 3 months...
I put it in a chemicals bottle with a glas cap that is nearly airtight. in this bottle the stuff is stored with acetone..for using i filtr
it out, dry it (takes not mor than a few minutes) and use it..
Its power is great and i never had problems with stability...
So why do you have???
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vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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Have you ever tried leaving any out in the open?
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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Well isn't that the point then? - If you leave it in the open it sublimates over time but if you keep it enclosed in something
airtight it doesn't.
It fits perfectly with what I have experienced. So you might just store it as you would gasoline or nitromethane.
Thanks for the input.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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The problem when keeping it in a sealed container is that it will sublimate and form crystals which are highly sensitive.
It only takes one accident to convert the non believer...
[This message has been edited by vehemt (edited January 06, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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also some crystals may form between the lid and the jar and when you open it BOOM!!!!!!
there is more than one reported case of this happining with lab grade ketones put in long term storage
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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I think that this is possible but i have tried it and there were no cristals after 9 weeks....
where should they come from??? The whole ap is covered by acetone, it can't evaporate...
Leaving it out i found that it evaporated, but not too much.... I think it was about 2-7% or so...
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blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
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to eliminate the problem of lid opening which causes friction, do what I do, just put cling foil over the top of the jar and hold it
there with a rubber band. Does the trick for me. Also helps if you wanna cool the mixture (to make the AP crystals) in the
fridge, and you have food in there. No opening the lid and going boom!
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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damn damn damn damn. are you all stupid fucks? you all seam like you have a brain, you speak as if you can think (no i did
not meant to ryme) there is no point in storing AP at all. AP does and always will vaporize and that is a point you can't argue.
when it does it forms much more unstable crystals that detonate when touched. all of you are looking to loose a hand. just
think guys... there is no reason to store it and storing it is a health hazard. SO WHY DO IT!!!!
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SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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I dreamt I had TCAP stored in a shallow cup (so no crystals on the side) for over a month and it was fine after ward, with very
little sublimed.
CragHack you need to calm down, TCAP can and has been stored safely. Also if stored underwater it's quite safe.
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CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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no, it can't, it is stupid even to try.
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SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
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why does everybody always say "I dreamt I.."
I say make AP as you need it.
If you don't plan on using it a week after it's made why make it?
Its not like the country is going to be taken over by aliens and you need your AP right that instant to save the world.
don't just make it for the hell of it and keep it under water for a month that is just more evidence for the FBI to find when they
tear your room apart because somebody got suspicious because you were buying lots of chemicals from the pharmacy or if by
any means you got in trouble with the law.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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So CragHack you are pretty emphatic about not storing it, but why exactly is that? Have you had any incidents with it, or
witnessed some maybe? I'm looking for firsthand experience. Others are welcome also; have any of you had AP explode
because of unstable crystals formed from vapour?
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
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I think="../images/email.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="Click Here to Email Edd">
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i once left a pot of the stuff (with a lid) on a shelf, in quite a warm room. it was there about a week. when i came to open it,
there was condensation on the edges of the pot and a few crystals among it. i was absolutely shitting myself when i opened it,
but nothing untoward happened.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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ding ding ding ding!!!! thank you Edd. no i have not had any incidents with it. my dreams do not last that long, and they are
not that detailed. i do not have incidents with it because i do not put myself in a position to have incidents with it (don't mean
to sound snotty on that one) but apparently edd has, and that should be all the reason not to store it. i know you would like
some concrete evidence, that i can not provide because i have never stored AP, knowing that this will happen. i have both read
AND heard storys of AP "disapearing", so i just assumed this was so. if you still do not believe me, drop Megalomania an
email and he will corroberate my story.
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...
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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I do not doubt that AP sublimates and recrystalizes; I have experimented with that myself, but why are everybody so certain
that these crystals are so much more sensitive than it was to begin with ?
I'm not saying that it isn't so, but so far, I have only heard what people have heard second or third hand.
Maybe someone with the proper facilities could make some tests and establish it.
Anyway, if the AP is compressed into an airtight container with no spaces inside, I really cannot imagine how it would
recrystalize.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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I think Craghack needs to calm down a bit...
The reason to store AP is so that you have it to hand when you suddenly get a great idea etc. The other option is to throw
away what you didn't use of the batch which is wasteful.
Why would re-crystalised AP be super-sensitive? it's just AP, there's nothing it could have reacted with to form a different
compound.
It can be stored safely you just need to be sensible.
Thinking about it, silver fulminate is stupidly sensitive yet it gets stored commercially for many years as kid's toys.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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We have somthing in comon, because I do not put myself in a position to have incidents with it either ! Storing it uncovered
(like I dremt) or underwater is SAFE. The small amount that does sublimate is not a hazard seeing how it does not collect.
Having an unessecary fear of TCAP will only increase you chance of accident, while a healthy respect will be beneficial.
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vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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"Having an unessecary fear of TCAP will only increase you chance of accident, while a healthy respect will be beneficial."
That is absolutely stupid.
I know for a fact that if someone with a good deal of explosives experience, whether military or laboratory, whatever, if they
saw this forum they would be shitting themselves as to how EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND RECKLESS DEALING WITH PEROXIDES
IS. Just because you've minimized the danger does not mean it does not exist. Also nobody has provided a REAL answer as to
why to store it. Peroxides can be made in such a small period of time that storing has no BENEFIT, only the inherit danger
always associated with dealing with a home made explosive, a peroxide at that.
No home made high explosives should ever be stored, no matter what the hell it is.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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sure, vehemt, I have to agree with you there, point is that some people might not heede your advice ( i dont think it is a good
idea to store ap) so it I was going to recomend storing it I would recomend storing it in a teflon containder (solid nylon works)
nothing sticks to it, also just in case I would recomend putting that inside a glass container and covering the inner container
filled with water(no air bubbles) with saran wrap and weighting it with some kind of weights (on the outside) and put it in the
glass jar filled with water to the brim and have that in a safe place. if a bubble forms in the ap container you know there is
some gas forming and it is time to redo the procedure, it may take be time consuming but it is well worth your life
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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Exactly. I would rather make a batch and use half of it and waist the rest than store the unused half, it and greatly increase
the chance of an accident. Besides, it is very cheap, easy and fast to make, sensitive, and dangerous. Shit, look at that dudes
counter (Anthony I think), and he just made the stuff.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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true enough about the ap not mixing with any other compunds, but the thing about recrystilization in air is that the molecules
in AP form ionic bonds with eachother (as I understand it) witch usualy results in a thin crystal sheets instead of nice loose ap
crystals, now you are thinking "so what of it forms crystals form in tiny(or large) sheets" well when you snap the delicate sheet
the ionic bonds break and release energy! now AP is sensitive enough with loose bonds to make things worse so that energy
allows the ap to decompose and explode!! does that mean anything to you?
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
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sure. it means "KA-FUCKING-BOOOOOM! AH! I'M BLIND! AH! I'M DEAF! AH! MY HANDS ARE GONE!"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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yep that's what it means
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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Is this still just theorizing ? It all sounds very plausible but as we all know, experiment overrules theory.
I have used AP for the last 8 years, I make about 5-10 grams at a time using good quality chemicals. I only use small
amounts in my devices (0.005-2.0 grams) so I usually have a lot of surplus which I store in a polyethylene jar with lid. I have
never had any problems with the crystals that form on the inside.
I suggest you all try this out:
Using a small amount, say one gram or whatever you think is safe, place your AP in a transparent, airtight container so you
can see when some of it begins to recrystalize.
Then test the sensitivity of these crystals directly.
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
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i think the problem with that, is that most of using making/using AP don't have brilliant equipment. that's why we use it it's
amazingly simple to make. the method someone i know uses is "but 'some' peroxide in a vat. put in 'some' acetone. add a
'bit' of Hcl" and he still gets good yields. if we had useful/complex lab gear we'd all be busy synthesisng RDX and such.
[This message has been edited by Edd (edited January 08, 2001).]
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
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Whoaa, I've been out this forum for a long time... Many news since !
Just to quote an example, I have kept AP on my desk (about 300-400 g) for now 3-4 monthes, and I can say that a little AP
left, but there is still much of it. I don't use special glassware to make it, just ice cubes and jam pots. And neither it exploded
neither it vaporized.
And AP tends to form unstable compound when stored in a closed pot, but it is NOT unstable enough to explode just when you
open it...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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It is if it gets into the threads of a container!
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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Anthony said:
Why would re-crystalised AP be super-sensitive?

why do you distill stuff? so i takes out the impurities..
when AP evapourates, and then condensences(sp?), you have the same effect as distilling it(almost the same anyway).
thus, the AP is more sensitive.
and it will always condensence where there is an air leak
so, if you have something covering the top of your jar - IE. a piece of glass,
and there is a small gap between the piece of glass and the top of the jar - you may not be able to see it, but if its there, air
will get in, and when it does, AP will condence around the hole, joining the piece of glass, to the top of the jar, and when you
remove the piece of glass from the jar, the crystals break, and the whole bottle goes boom.
i have first hand experience of this happening
when i used to store AP, i would wear a pair of butchers "chainmail" gloves, and then a pair of welding gloves over the top of
that whenever i went to pick up a jar that more then a day old
because i had a fair idea of the dangers involved in storing
oneday, i wasn't quite so lucky, and when i moved my jar of AP, the piece of glass on top moved slightly, and set the whole jar
off, which completly shredded the welding glove on my hand, and tiny little bits of glass stuck into the chainmail glove, and
came thru far enough to put little puncher holes all over my hand.
thank fully i reached around the coner to grab hold of the jar, or other wise, i prolly wouldn't have mnuch of a face left(if any at
all)
so as far storing AP goes, NO NO NO!!

it is stupid. very stupid.
if you have leftover AP, use it for something simple

like putting between coins and throwing it..
or, grow a brain, and work out some ratios for mixxing, so you get how much you want each time.
rather then mix a batch big enough to fill 15 matchboxxes, when you only need to fill 1.
i don't care what other people say about storing AP..or any other explosive
they may get away with storing AP for 10 years, and it still be fine.
but one day it won't.
It only takes one accident to convert the non believer...

very true vehemt.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
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Why is the peroxides section always full of arguments?
If you want to store it, then do, but be prepared for anything that might happen as a result. If you don't think it's worth the
risk, don't store it.
I never store AP, but I do store small amounts of HMTD. I have a sample of HMTD that I'm testing, and it'll be 2 years, 1
month old in February. I'll test a bit for power and sensitivity to see what's happened to it, if anything.
If you're going to store AP, I'd suggest dissolving it in acetone at 0 *C or colder, and storing it in the freezer.
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From: Heaven
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a litle bedtime story.
Once upon a time there were a chemical student from my country, who had stored 4gr AP in a litle glass jar with a lid.
One day he took of the lid and then.......
BOOOOOOM!
The whole shit exploded so he blew of his hand and some of his leg...!
Just a reminder; lost bodypartz don't come back again!!!!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but they do still itch, which would be extemely annoying because you couldn't scratch it! (not speaking from personal
experience! It's a well-known medical fact)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP + Sulphur - archive file
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zaibatsu October 13th , 2002, 09:03 AM

extrem e
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 102
From :
p o s t e d D e c e m ber 31, 2000 03:47 AM
Anyone who tried to mix AP with sulphur and then light it?
Try it and light (outside), its like a stin k b o m b
Anyone who has any com m e n t s a b o u t t h i s ?
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
I guess you could possibly put the ap/sulphur m ixture in a pape r t u b e s e a l e d a t b o t h e n d s , b e i n g 1 . 5 i n c h e s l o n g , a n d 1 c m in
with. You could fuse them a n d o n c e m a d e , c o u l d b e m a ss produ ced and, because of their lightweight, and they are so
concealable, you can bring them to stadium s and movies and whatever. Even in class! The confinem ent of the AP/sulphur
m ixture will cause the stink to be spread out a very big radius.
Rhadon
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 95
From : Germ a n y
I tested this once. Th e result was that the AP ignited bu t the sulfur didn't burn. The "stinking effect" can result of the
combustion of AP, I noticed that it uses to give off an unpleasant odor when burn ed (perh aps a result of im purities)
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
A P d o e s n ' t s m ell when deflagerated but when it detonates it don't half stink.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
posted Decem ber 31, 2000 02:14 PM
what about a p- sugar? do you think that would make alot of sm o k e ?
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
W hat about AP+Al? I would mix it then use it there, or it m ight corrode/explode. W hat if you were to m ake a FAE with acetone
with as m uch of AP th at would dissolve into it? If you try, be sure to have a lot of AP it takes a lot.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
t h e a l u m i n u m m ight corrode rapidly and heat the ap to detonation, I personaly would kee p ap as far away from me tals as
possibe esp oxidizaables
green beret
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 101
From : Austra lia
I think that mixing AP with sulfur could have its risks be cause the sulfur m ay contain a sm all am ount of residual acid. Just be
careful.
Rhadon
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 95
From : Germ a n y
I also tried a m ixture of AP and sugar, with the same result as AP + sulfur: The AP burned, but too fast to ignite the sugar. AP
and very fine Al-powd er might work, but the risk of self-ignition is presen t. If it doesn't work with Al probably Mg cou l d b e
t a k e n , b u t t h i s w o u l d b e e v e n m o r e d a n g e r o u s b e c a u s e Mg is m ore reactive than Al and tends to ignite itself when m oisture is
present.
Rhadon
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 95
From : Germ a n y
P e r h a p s I m ight add that I use to fill my self-m ade fire-crackers with a m ixture of AP and fine wood charcoal (~ 3:1 by
volum e). You can save AP with this and it's still very powerful. I don't know but probably the AP is desensitized with this.
Arthis
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 203
From :
W ell, do you rem e m ber what nbk2000 had told a b o u t o x y g e n b a l a n c e ? A P h a s a n e g a t i v e o n e , s o a d d i n g a f u e l w i l l n o t g i v e
cool results as it will need m ore oxygen, which is already deficient. It so m ay be difficult to find a chem ical that m a k e s a
greater explosion/effect.
W hoa it is good to visit this fo rum again, after a one week holiday snowboarding...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Adding a relatively stable oxidiser m ight help, it may also desensitize it a bit and raise the density. (I'd go and try this now if I
had some AP stored...)
sim ply RED

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 238
From : HELL
I h a v e m i x e d A P w i t h a m m onium nitrate(fine powdered clear and dried)1 :1 in ma ss. it explodes very well when confined and
set off with 2 grams of AP.I've m a d e 1 00 grams of this but I'm not sure that all the AN ex p l o d e s . . .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > ap catalyst to prevent or slow breakdown
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phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
d o e s a n y o n e know what it is in the environment that causes ap to breakdown? if so what is it and is there any kind of catalyst
that can be added to prevent deteriation. if not able to be added to the m ixture m aybe it could be used to store it. any help is
appreciated
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
dude a catalyst is used to spe ed up a reaction by providing low energy pathways with which the molecules ram into each other.
a catalyst speeds things up, it doesn't slow things down.
i would suggest storing AP in a "burped" tupperware con tainer, or in a vacuum. this will greatly help.
------------------
...
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
yeah i should have thought about wording it be tter. oh well it's n ot the first time i've said som ething that m a d e m e s o u n d l i k e
a dumb ass
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
AP doesn't break down it just volitarise s I suppose it's the solid equivilen t of evaporating, it will turn back, usually in places you
don't want it to.
SofaKing
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 392
From : YEAH RIGHT !!
W ashing it to ensure that there is no acid content is very im portant.
But even then ap will sublim ate, but it does so at more at higher tem eratures. It should stop altog ether if cooled.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP crystals - archive file
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zaibatsu October 13th, 2002, 09:08 AM

Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 132
From:
What could be the different with powder AP and Crystals of AP...
which is more unstable..?
I tried 1 cup citric acid

2 cups h2o2 33%
3 cups acetone
now it's more than 30 hours no result yet...
will tell you when it's finished
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
well, a couple of things here. the powder LIKE AP is still a crystal, but it is just a realy small one, thus it feels like a powder. also, i do not think citric acid is going to work.
(does anyone know the emperical formula for it?) i think you need an acid that is going to produce a pretty large amount of H+ ions and as far as i know, citric acid isn't going
to do it.
oh, also, i just read your post again, you are using way to much acetone. try and tone it down about a cup.
------------------
...
[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited January 06, 2001).]
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Place a batch of powdery AP on a styrofoam dinner plate,cover with another plate.Let it sit for a week or so,then take a look;you'll have a batch of fine,shiny crystals!The AP
sublimes,recrystallizes into larger,more easily visible crystals.
------------------
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 132
From:
Don't you think that the big crystals are more unstable??
Citric acid works just fine...
ABout the Acetone, i was trying different ammounts but shouldn't I add acetone more than h2o2?
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Well, CragHack, be careful that he uses 33% h2o2, which is very concentrated. I use that too, and I can assume by many tests that with these conc., you may use about twice
acetone as h2o2, but not less.
If you add citric acid, it may not work, or you may have to add much more. But as I said, as it is a catalyst, it should work anyway, but you will have to wait much moren time
(it isn't a mineral acid).
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
point well taken. thank you arthis.
------------------
...
extreme
Frequent Poster
Posts: 102
From:
i use 35% h2o2
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
Do you realise that if your(Detonator) reaction had worked, you'd have a FUCKING SHITLOAD of AP.
I don't think i'd want that much ever.
[This message has been edited by Stone (edited January 09, 2001).]
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
Some people say that your supposed to use more aceton then h202 when using 30% h202. And some tell me the opposite.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
you are supposed to use more acetone when using 30% H2O2. by now everybody should know that you use the volumetric ratio 1:6(H2O2 to Acetone) to get the most AP
crystals.
I have heard that you should use the same ammount of H2O2 as Acetone, but that would be acetone deficient
[This message has been edited by SafetyLast (edited January 12, 2001).]
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
A friend of mine tried making two large batches of AP(4 times the amounts in Imp. Munitions)using 27%H2o2 for the 1st. time.The qty.'s were:200 ml.H2o2/120 ml.acetone/
12 ml.94%sulfuric acid.In a few hours he had two large batches of powdery AP,but it was very weak;when compressed in a 1/4 in.pipe,it burned,didn't bang.He added the acid
rather rapidly-is the increased heat the cause?.He's used the same formula successfully with 20 vol.,but was more patient,adding the acid a few drops at a time.
AnthraX October 16th, 2002, 05:17 PM

I have 9 % h202 and i was wondering how much Acetone i should addto that i only want a small quantity as its my first time thanks :)
Anthony October 16th, 2002, 07:17 PM

1:6
Pure H2O2:pure acetone
inferno October 18th, 2002, 05:35 AM

I'm assuming you've got 100ml 9%, If I were you I'd use all 100ml with 50ml Acetone....I attempted AP with 6% H2O2, using 15ml acetone:75ml H2O2 to allow for the low
concentration. I got around 1-2g, not worth it.
I was sure the ratio was 1:5?
knowledgehungry October 18th, 2002, 10:57 AM

How much acid did you use? I find that the results with low conc. of H2O2 are greatly increased by using more acid. Just a thought. What conc. of
acid did you use?
Celtick November 2nd, 2002, 06:25 AM

Its been awhile but I finally upped my site again, so for my CTAP synthesis check <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/goth/celtick/AP.html" target="_blank">CTAP
Synthesis</a>
Korfaction November 2nd, 2002, 11:17 AM

About AP cristals:
I've let some AP in a plate on my desk for 3 weeks, after that there where some transparent cristals like salt, cubes of ~2mm... One should use AP right after drying. (I threw
mine away in water... Don't wan't any problems).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Friction Sensivtive AP - archive file
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Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
From : T o p e k a , k s , U S A
I was about to m ake a batch of AP and was wondering exactily h ow sensitive the ap would be if I went off the recipe in the
Makeshift Arsenal.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
SENSITIVe to a hamm er blow when dry
Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
W ould you there be a recipe that is less friction sensitive?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
W hy? If u just use ap as dets its not gonna hurt you if you are extremely carefull..If u wanna mabe big bom b s o u t a a p ,
dont..Its too risky and expensive
------------------
Explosives Archive
MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
Sure,if you add the acid too fast and the mix heats up,you'll have less sensitive AP-but it'll be nex t to useless!(especially with
sulfuric).Som etimes it's so wimpy,no m atter how hard you com press it,it won't detonate,just burn a bout like SP.
------------------
SofaKing
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 392
Allowing the reaction to heat up and th ere by producing the dim m er is a bad idea ! The dim m e r f r o m o f A P i s m o r e s e n e t i v e !
------------------
"ARE YO U R P A P E R S I N O R D E R " - - J a c k B o o t e d T h u g
Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
How long does it usually take for your ap to dry?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
posted January 19, 2001 03:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for C ragHack i would not let it dry all the way. i would put it on
a paper towe l or coffe filter, to pull away the wa ter from the crystals for 24 hours, after this put it in the container. this won't be
100% dry, but it shouldn't be stored like that anyway. plus there will be no decrease in perform ance if the AP has a little
m oisture in it.
------------------
...
Sgt_Starr
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 119
From : Petersburg
Hey guys Ive decided that I want to make ap for the first tim e...and I da re say that Im a n00bie. Anyone wanna tell m e what
kind a stuff I need to stock m y lab with and any recipes(I think Im g o n n a u s e t h e M a k e s h i f t a r e s e n a l r e c i e p e . ) T h a n k s g u y s , O h
btw Im only planning on m akeing little am ounts at a time like enough for a few firecracker sized explosives
------------------
"Oh Sh".::BO OM: :((later
in front of sa int peter))
"it"
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Don't use the MA m ethod, instead use (vehemt's or was in sofaking's sorry guys can't rem ember who to give credit to!)
m e t h o d , u s e 6 t i m e s a s m uch acetone a s p u r e H 2 O 2 .
I started a batch two days ago using 100m l 6% H2O 2 (6m l pure H2O2), 26m l acetone and 10ml 91% H2SO4. After two days in
the fridge, the crystals occupy 50-60% of the solution! Not bad for 6%!!!
angelo
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 279
From :
check out m y 3% com pared to 6% post to see exactly how i m ake it...
all you need to start m a k i n g a p i s a m easuring cup, 2 jars (big enough to hold th e solutio n i n t h e m ) a n d s o m ething to stir the
solution with (wood, glass rod, not m e t a l ) a n d s o m e coffee filters.
s o m e other handy things to have would be late x gloves and a roll of han dee whipes, toilet paper would do...
don't forget the goggles(better to be safe then sorry)
------------------
angelo's place
Sgt_Starr
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 119
From : Petersburg
I m s a d t o s a y I'm pretty darn scared about ma k i n g t h i s e x p l o s i v e . C o u l d s o m eone share their first experie nce in m a k i n g t h i s
and go step by steb(so I will know wha t kind of safty is required) Thanks(AP is illegal to m ake correct? Hope so )
------------------
"Oh Sh".::BO OM: (later
in front of sa int peter))
"it"
[This message has been edited by Sgt_Starr (edited January 22, 2001).]
Edd
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 66
From : e n g l a n d
anthony, your maths is wrong. 6 x 6 = 36, not 26!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Typo - got a new keyboard.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
yes in m ost countries it is illegal to m ake. in th e US it is, canada, all of europe (to my understanding) the only place really,
that you can make it without any hope of reprisal is the middle east. and then you can still get in trouble in som e countries
there. all in all, governments frown on there citizens m aking HE's.
------------------
...
vehem t
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 580
From : C a n a d a
Actually in Canada sm all amounts(wha t a sm all am ount is nobody knows as its not defined ) are o k to m anufacture for
personal intellectual gain.
Its illegal to m ake any devices from it or to sell it however.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
S a m e in England, alhtough I thought it was restricted to LE's, although I don't see why lab s s h o u l d n ' t b e b a l e t o m a k e s m all
a m o u n t s o f e x p l o s i v e c h e m icals for other experim ents! Like Picric acid.
Edd
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 66
From : e n g l a n d
yeah, i'm just testing this picric acid for it's am azing staining pro perties!
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 232
Yes, Picric Acid does have legitam i t e u s e s .
I found a few sites that sell it <a href="http://www2.fishersci.com /catalog s/
ncatgroup.jsp;$sessionid$JPHYEXIAAACU2CW IZEEQAAA?c atalogParamId=MPX11651&catalogParam Type=NCI"
target="_blank">http://www2.fishersci.com /catalogs/nca tgroup.jsp;$sessionid$JPHYEXIAAACU2CW IZEEQ AAA?c
a t a l o g P a r a m I d = M P X 1 1 6 5 1 & c a talogParam Type=NCI</a>
t o o d a m n ex pensive however $321 for 500 gram s!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Ap IN FRIDGE NOW !? - arch ive file
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endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
On Television there was a sho w about a guy wh o w a s m a k i n g a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e . T h i s g u y m ixed in an ice bath the following
chems...
-50 m l 3 % H y d r o g e n P e r o x i d e
-38 m l Acetone
-13 m l of %31 Hydrochloric acid
In 3 days the show is going to be on a gain to see if any ap crystals have form ed? Do you think any Ap will form and if so ho w
m uch?
------------------
If I here wha t more g oddamn explosion im going to get out of my firickin' wheel chair, and kick so m e p u n k a s s
-old guy
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
they showed that on TV? wow i am am azed. i would think you wo uld get... hmm ... about, well not alot lets put it that way.
a b o u t t h e v o l u m e o f a n a m e r i c a n q u a r t e r o r p o ssibly two. not much by any means.
------------------
...
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
thanks crag, awesome, this guy on tv added some more Hydrogen Peroxide about 1 hour and a half after he mixed it because
he realized he did not put much in, about 3 hours after that, there appeared to be like a very light flaky film on the surface of
the solution,is this the beginning of AP crystallization and also does it m a t t e r t h a t t h e g u y a d d e d a n e x t r a 1 0 m l a b o u t a n h o u r
after being refriegrated?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
no, not at all. in fact as you will see, it is going to increase the yeild some what.
------------------
...
sadsakjoel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 170
From :
He didn't rea lly see that on tv craghack, that's his way of saying it wasn't him !
[This message has been edited by sadsakjoel (edited January 25, 2001).]
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 591
From : ?
HaHaHa!!
Maybe it`s better to say the next time:
I d r e a m d that,,,,
Or p pl are gonna ask which TV show it whas.
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
SofaKing
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 392
Shit here I am wonde ring what show th is is. Dam I'm gullable !
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
yeah me too, wow i guess i got so used to the "i had a dream" speech it throws m e o f f w h e n s o m e o n e c o m es up with
s o m ething new...
------------------
...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP Mishap - archive file
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
I had a bit of a close encounter with AP earlier this evening, hopefully it m ay convince peo ple that AP can be very sensitive and
unpredicatab le.
I w a s o u t o f h c l s o I m a d e a b a t c h u s i n g 9 1 % h 2 s o 4 , I u s e d 2 0 0 m l o f 6 % h 2 o 2 a n d 2 5 0 m l nail varnish rem over. The resulting

AP was VERY fine and I was pleased with how m u c h I ' d g o t , I h a d a b o u t 4 0 - 5 0 g m , I s p r e a d t h e s h a v i n g f o a m l o o k i n g A P o u t
only the filter cloth, put it on a newspaper, on a desk under the desk lam p .
I was sitting on the floor on the other side of the room spending hours gradually grinding up 1kg of NaClO3. (the AP was going
to be for the detonator) All of a sudeen there was a god almighty explosion and I was plunged into darkness.
My first thought was the chlorate that I was grinding then I realised it couldn't have been that and it was the AP.
T h e l a m p was the typ e o n s p r i n g l o a d e d a r m s with a steel cone shaped shade, it was only a few inches abo ve the AP but at
that distance it was barely warm t o t h e h a n d .
The shockwave from the blast hadn't actually broekn the light bulb but had killed it, the hatch to the loft had also been blown
open (weighs about 6 pounds).
I took a few pictures of the damage, the desk was totalled, the chair was under thedesk a nd had a hole in it, bitsof wood from
t h e d e s k h a d g o n e t h r o u g h t h e c a r p e t . T h e s t e e l l a m p s h a d e h a d s h o t u p , s m a s h e d a h o l e i n t h e s l o p e d p art of the ceiling
and then flew across the room .
It was a complete m ess there were bits of everything all over the room and the ceiling and wall are full of h o l e s f r o m
schrapnel.
Fortunately I was down low so I was un harm ed aprt from ears that didn't stop ringing for a n hour, I've also got plastering to
do. O n closer inspection, there are large cracks running the length of the room around the edge of the ceiling (that weren't
there before) where the prety weak plaster ceiling has b een pushed up. I was damn lucky the wondow less than 3ft from the AP
didn 't blow out.
Here's some pics:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k / d a m age.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/

d a m age.jpg</a>
The overall scene, the stuff th at looks like sawdust is plaster.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k/hole.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/hole.jpg</

a>
The hole in the ceiling.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k/desk2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k /

desk2.jpg</a>
The desk.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k/desk.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k / d e s k . j p g < /

a>
The hole in the desk from underneath
<a href="http://www.geocities.com / s p u d g u n s _ u k/lamp.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com /spud g u n s _ u k /

lam p.jpg</a>
The twisted rem ains of the steel lam p s h a d e .

I s o m ething was seriously up with the AP to m ake it so sensitive , I washed it with cold water under the tap as usually but not
s o a rgressively as I was losing som e AP through the filter cloth. Needless to say, I shan't be using h2so4 again and will be
revising my m e t h o d o f m aking AP entirely. I'm surprised I didn't notice the AP starting to decom pose but then I was pretyy
invlove with grinding the chlorate and had the TV up pretty loud. I also wouldn't have expected the stuff to actually detonate
considering how spread out it was. Just goes to show ho w unpredictable this kind of stuff can be.
Otherside
A new voice
Posts: 20
From : O n the otherside
D a m n...
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
I would shit all over m y s e l f i f t h a t h a p p e n e d t o m e . G l a d y o u s u r v i v e d m a n . I t s a m azing you didnt get m essed up! Be carfuller.
I d o n t e v e n w a s h m y A P , a n d h a v e h a d n o p r o b l e m with sensitivety, but I definately will now.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
the worst incident that happened to m e w a s w h e n I h a d a q u a r t e r p o u n d o f a p ( d a m p ) g o o f f a b o u t 4 feet from m e b e a c u s t m y
m om walked by and a cigarette butt from her cigarette fell off of the grill (grill wasnt being used) and hit th e d a m p a p a n d
m ade a huge fireball and scorched the front of my body, luckily I was wearing goggles.
needless to say I was very, very angry with m y m o m , s h e k n o w s a c e t o n e i s f l a m m a b l e a n d n o t t o s m o k e n e a r m y s t u f f a n d
m ost of all around me! she was like: wow that stuff is really dangerous m a y b e e y o u s h o u l d b e m o r e c a r e f u l ! a n d s h e did not
under stand that if that 230 grams of ap were any m ore dry that I not only would have been toast, but I would have been all
over the place! I was lucky that it was still wet when it went off, it m ade a white halo sort of thing around the contain er it was in
( a s m oking piece of plastic)
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
O h m y God. That scares the living crap out of me. Shit! My God! I'm glad you're alive. That's why I m a k e b a t c h e s o f A P i n
s m a ll am ounts. My first batch was usin g 4m l of H202, and 4m l of Acetone, and 4 drops of HCl. Holy crap. Shit!!!! Th e s i z e o f
that hole!!! My god. That will be a valuable lesson to m e, and hopefully everyone else who is m a k i n g A P a n d o t h e r e x p l o s i v e s .
W hen the AP detonated, didn't nearby neighbors com e and check out what was going on?!
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
Hey PYRO500, thats scarry and funny too. I can see your m om walking b y and accidentally ashing her cigarette in a big pile
AP. It blows up and she is all black and ashy lo oking with her ha ir all poking back wards and says h m m m I see why you like
t h i s s t u f f a n d k e e p s w a l k i n g . I n t h e m e a n t i m e , your over in the corner of your black asky room twitching and spazing out and
all b u r n e d u p . M y m o m gets pissed wh en I throw little nuggets o f AP into the stove and it rattles the dishhes. Try it, its fun. But
you dont get nuggets unless you squeze the filter after you filter it. I would reccom e n d n u g g e t s a b out the size of a pencil
eracer, but not bigger until you know h ow loud it is. Its am azing how so little nugget can m a k e a d a m n l o u d n o i s e . A n d m a k e
sure your stove is about 300+*F. I have no heater and its always on, so I dont got to worry.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited Dece mber 30, 2000).]
10fingers
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 411
From : U SA
O h W ow! Glad you're alright. I had a similar accident ha ppen to m e with som e HMTD putty. Never turn your back on this stuff,
it will bite you. I am wondering, is your nail polish remover pure acetone? Another possibility is that their was som e r e s i d u a l
acid in the AP.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
T h e r o o m did a pretty good jo b of containing the noise so all the neighbours would of hea rd was a thum p, which isn't unusual
coming from my house!
Thin king about it, I did use some different (pink) NVR from the usual stuff I use which I think is pretty pure. I think I'll go
back to my norm al m ethod with HCL which gives nice flaky crystals that I can rinse thoroughly. A pinch of bicarb of soda
wouldn't go amiss either.
You're dead right about not turning your back and biting you, I was lucky not to g et that lam p shade or one of the various bits
of pointy metal on the desk in the back of m y head.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
n o w , I m a k e m a n y , m any jars of ap at once (sepratly) once I made 6 m ayo jars full with 30% h2o2! I som etim e s d i g s m all
trenches and pour the stuff in ( an inch or two deep) dam p and thow a burning ember or something in and watch the ultra-fast
deflagration shoot a huge heat cloud up in the air (you know like when you look at a road in a hot summ e r d a y ( l o o k s l i k e
water)) I also today made a fae with a film canister of ap and a couple of sm all firecrackers (blackcats) I dont think it
d e t o n a t e d b u t i t m a d e a n a w s o m e e x p a n d i n g f i r e b a l l . t h e b i g g e s t a p e x p losion I m ade wa s a 1 p o u n d b o m b o f a p i n a
container buried underground, it was loud!!!!! and it made a pretty big crater think that will set off som e s t u b b o r n a n ?
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From : U n i t e d K i n g d o m
I'm glad you weren't hurt, and thanks for putting up the photos.
You can buy pure Ace tone from the chem ists, why use nail polish rem over?
Also, where do you get your HC L? I know weak solution can be b ought at B&Q, bu t it's so weak they don't e ven give the
strength on the conta iner.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Apparently acetone from the chemist is very ex pensive. That spray washer stuff is a joke, any decent hcl will have a corrosive
warning label. I get m ine from a local DIY shop as "spirit of salts" industrial strenght drain un-blocker.
The cheap clear NVR from wilk o's is practically pure acetone.
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
Its called a mirage (it m ight b e spelled right). I see the m every where I drive, but not in the winter.
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
It costs 0.69 for 50ml. Yes, this is expensive if you're m aking a lot. I still haven 't m ade any AP, I want to know ex actly what
is going on in the rea ction first. This m e a n s I ' m going to study chemistry in m y spare tim e (new years resolution!). I know
chemistry up to GCSE level, as well as plenty of experience with pyro, but I'de like to know m o r e b e f o r e m e ssing with HE's.
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
Holy fuck up the ass! I just rem o v e d m y AP (that I mad e on NY) from m y T-shirt and put it in a cup. I took the filter and shook
it out good, then shook it over the stove. It had a LO T m ore AP than I thought in it. I was completely engu l f e d i n a n e x p l o d i n g
fireball. I have no hair on m y right arm , s o m e hair on m y left arm , and a " less hair on m y head. I know it wasnt the
brightest thing to do, but I thought there wasnt m uch le ft in the filter. Also, this was my st time useing baking soda when
washing m y AP. It sm ells deliciously fruity! Now I can just store my AP in an em p t y b o x o f b a k i n g s o d a a n d t h e p i g s w o n t t h i n k
m uch of it if I get raided.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP+Picric Acid - archive file
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Detonator
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 132
From :
Any inform a t i o n a b o u t this com p o u n d ?
Microtek
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 194
From :
I have used it to stretch m y supply of picric acid. It's pretty much an average of the two explosives in all departmen ts; average
DV, average power, a bit more stable than acetone peroxide, a bit less corrosive ( but you still need to protect metal surfaces
). It is good for sm a l l s h a p e d - c h a r g e s a n d m e d i u m strength detonators, but I really prefe r to just use the picric acid as base
charge and AP or HMTD as prim ary.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
this will work pretty well. i know a kid who has h ad great sucess using picric as a b ooster, AP as the prim ary. he uses this to
detonate ANFO

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Pictures of AP or HTMD C rystals - archive
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Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
Does any one have pictures of AP or HTMD crystals? I want to se e what they suppose to lo o k l i k e . I m planning on m a k i n g
s o m e for the first time a just want to g et an idea what to expect.
extrem e
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 102
From :
W hen i m ake AP i it looks like snow
extrem e
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 102
From :
btw look in the topic "3% compared to 6% H2O2" in the Explosive Peroxides part of the fo rum for som e nice pictures of AP
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 591
From : ?
I h a v e m a d e s o m e pictures of m y Ap batch last week,,But the roll of film isn`t full yet.If it`s ready i post th e m o n m y site
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
the freshm a k e r
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 170
From : Heave n
hey Teck
I'm b e g i n n i n g t o h a v e a n i d e a a b o u t Y O U d o n ' t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t e x p l o s i v e z .
Not that it isn't okay, but I think you should try to search the net for info on ex. an pyrotechnicz.
Your questions are quite strange.."how does AP crystalz look like...eeeh!"
(I'm not saying that youre not welcom e..not at all . But please search the net to get som e i n f o i n s t e a d o f p u t t i n g s o s i m p l e
q u e s t i o n s h e re )
extrem e
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 102
From :
W hen i first m ade it i was expecting yellow sm all crystals
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Is your "s" key broken or som ething!!!
Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
Hey sorry m a n t h e o n l y g o o d s t u f f a b o ut explosives I can find on the net is in Jolly Roger manuals wich you know youe self
suck and I just took an explosive class through a university som e i m h o p i n g t o g e t s o m e knowledge through that. Another
thing is I just found out about AP and HTMD and just really excited in m a k i n g s o m e .
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 232
eeew yuck! Jolly Roger?
im getting sick to my stom ach just thinking of it. (Dam n C r a p b o o k )
If you want lots of stuff like PMJB, Makeshift Arsenal, and other good books just download them from Forum m e m b e r s s i t e s
here is the link for the im provised m unitions m anual <a href="h ttp://yournam e . n e t z o n . n e t / 1 m ore.htm#chap1.4"
target="_blank">http://yournam e . n e t z o n . n e t / 1 m o r e . h t m #chap1.4</a>
no pics however
M a k e s h i f t h a s some pics of AP, but Lowry used Diggers HCl and the solution is orange
A P l o o k s l i k e confectioners sugar or baking powder
On another note:
pleze dont write like thiz frezh m a k e r
it hurtz m y eyez
Foodos
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 210
From :
t e c k , t a k e s o m e a c t i o n a n d u s e t h e s e arch feature on this forum , and se arch the web if you cant find it before asking stupid
questions. You keep asking stupid easily-searched questions, do something yourself.
Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
alrig ht thanx for info evryone. ill be off searching the web for info for couple of days.
vehem t
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 580
From : C a n a d a
<a href="http://surf.to/m e g a l o m ania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/m e g a l o m ania</a>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > breakdown of ap p utty - archive file
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phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
d o e s a p p u t t y b r e a k d o w n a t t h e s a m e rate as ap or is it slower,or does it breakdown at all? any help is appreciated
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Slower, as the AP is e nclosed from the Ait by th e NC.
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
if the ap putty was made into a block and encased in th at rubber stuff that you dip tools in and it m akes the neat little
handles, would it keep it from breaking down?
Stone
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 140
From :
Is this black rubber stuff, that you dip tools in, hot when it is a liquid? If so... i wouldn't go dipping AP Putty into it
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 232
No, it's not hot.
I have a couple contianers of it it's called weapons grade plutonium errr I m ean Plasti-Kote and it com es in black, red, and
blue it would make the AP putty real waterproof too.
Foodos
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 210
From :
I h a v e t h e s a m e stuff, I havent used it for a fe w years since I forgot abo ut it . Mine is called Plastidip, contains: Naptha,
H e x a n e , T o l u e n e , a n d M e t h y l E t h e l K e t o n e . W ould any of those be broken down into the Ap, or vice versa to be dangerous?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Shokwave from AP - archive file
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DrTNT
A new voice
Posts: 17
From : - unknown -
Hi everybody!
I'm a b o u t t o m a k e a l o t o f A P (first I have to find 30% H2O2, but anyway) and I'd like to know what is the minim u m a m o u n t
of AP that can produce a destructive shockwave that can kill or seriously injure people. DO NOT THINK THAT I WANT TO KILL
SOMEBODY. I just want to kno w that, b ecause I do not want to create such dangerous explosion, and I'll put less AP than the
a m ount needed to pruduce such shokwave. I know that this m ay sound violently, but I'll never attem pt to do that stuff. And
o n e m o r e t h i n g . H o w c a n I p r e s s t h o s e a m ounts into a container without being worried about an accident? Maybe I can use
alcohol while pressing, but how it will dry?
Thanks.
------------------
Keep the safety fuse long enough!
<a href="http://m e m bers.internettrash.com /drtnt" target="_blank">http://m embers.internettrash.com /drtnt</a>
Nigh tStalker
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 116
From :
Even creating this am o u n t s i s d a n g e r o u s .
You would need a lot of aP to create such a shockwave, more than is safe to handle, a lot m ore....
T h e i d e a o f c o m p r e s s i n g b i g g e r a m ounts sounds like suicide to m e. Even if it is wet it's still very dangerous and as less than
o n e g r a m m , i s a b l e t o p e n e t r a t e 1 m m steel yo u should not do that... you really shouldn't..
------------------
MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
Don't compress it, and use m any sm all containers and tape them together, instead of one big (then the ap m ight go off by it's
own weight).Like m any sm all m atchboxes,film cannisters, or any other de sireable casing.
MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
by the way DrTnT, i like the pictures on your we b p a g e , p l e a s e t a k e m ore...
DrTNT
A new voice
Posts: 17
From : - unknown -
Thanks guys for help.
And what is the m inim u m am ount (weight) of AP that can detonate by its own weight???
------------------
Keep the safety fuse long enough!
<a href="http://m e m bers.internettrash.com /drtnt" target="_blank">http://m embers.internettrash.com /drtnt</a>
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 232
that depends on how much it is washed and stuff like that.
If you had very well washed AP I think that the maximum you would be able to keep in one place without it detonating from its
own weight would be about 600 grams but this is very unsafe and should be com bined at the detonation site in 50 or 100 gram
increments
that would be stored in seperate containers.
you should m ake a hole in the ground about a foot wide and a foot deep then add all of the AP to the hole and push a long
fuse into the AP.
I h a v e a q u a r t o f 3 0 % H 2 O 2 a n d t h a t s e n o u g h t o m a k e a b o u t a kilo of AP.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
you could get "blast lungs"
knowledgehungry October 22nd, 2002, 10:37 PM

I d e t o n a t e d a b o u t 5 g r a m s o f A P i n a s m all tylenol bottle using about 1/2 gram of AP in a sm all vial as the detonater. The
explosion wa s m uch larger than norm al fuse detonated AP, I got blast chest from 40 feet away and it is still bothering me a
little bit(3 da ys later), m y m o m got blast chest from inside my house <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> .
W ith fuse detonations of that amount I don't get that m uch blast chest. Is detonating AP with AP something comm only done or
does it not increase the effect of the blast?
kingspaz October 23rd , 2 0 0 2 , 0 5 : 5 2 P M

not sure how comm only use it is but i know a few people here if they don't have a base charge the y use AP detonated with an
AP cap. DoV is improved by initiation with a cap .
carbonated October 23rd , 2 0 0 2 , 0 7 : 0 5 P M

If your m ain charge is AP, detonating AP with AP is wiser since you will no t handle the bigg er main charge as much. It m i g h t b e
slightly m ore powerful detonated rathe r than with a fuse, maybe m ore powerful. Test anyone (no not me, sorry, AP scares m e
enough already!).
knowledgehungry October 25th , 2 0 0 2 , 1 1 : 4 4 P M

If anybody wants to test it out remem b e r t o u s e A P f r o m t h e s a m e batch since different batches are, well, different. I'll test it
out within the month but if anyone is im patient they can test it out first.
darkdontay October 26th , 2002, 01:55 AM

W ow that was a powerful insite.. No one here would have thought of that..
Sorry but rea ding that just bothered me.
ShockWave October 26th , 2002, 05:02 AM

I t h i n k A P h a s a n e x t r e m ly high VoD when it is molten, when a very sm a l l a m o u n t i s o n a a l l u m ium foil and you will heat it with
a f l a m f r o m below drom about 10-15cm , it will detonate with more power than NG I think.
T h e a l l u m i n i u m foil has becom e powder, but with NG it will not be that bad.
If we can find a way to make the AP a liquid m aybe we have a very m uch stronger AP, but disolving it in a liquid will
decompose the cristals right ?
Otherwise we could disolve m a y b e a f e w grams of AP in 1cm 3!!?
vulture October 26th , 2002, 08:13 AM

</fo nt><blockquote>quote:<hr /> think AP has an extrem ly high VoD when it is m olten, when a very sm all am o u n t i s o n a a l l u m i u m foil and you will
heat it with a flam fro m below drom about 10-15cm , it will detonate with m ore power than NG I think.<hr /></
blockquote>NG is m uch m ore powerful than AP and not the other way round,
also NG won't detonate reliable from flam e , y o u n e e d a c a p .
knowledgehungry October 26th , 2002, 10:51 AM

Helvetica">If we can find a way to m a k e t h e A P a liquid maybe we have a very m uch stron ger AP, but disolving it in a liquid will
decompose the cristals right ?<hr /></blockquote>I don't think this is
true because m any people will store AP in acetone, while they may lose a sm all am ount of the AP it is not significan t. I am
goin g to try AP dissolved in acetone today, i will post the results later with pictures (hopefully).
ShockWave October 26th , 2 0 0 2 , 1 2 : 5 4 P M

Helvetica"> NG is m uch m ore powerful than AP and not the other way round, also NG won't detonate reliable from flame, you
need a cap <hr /></blockquote>Vulture, ofcourse is NG m ore powerfull
then AP, But I found out that 1sm all drop of NG at the alluminium foil is not as po werfull as the same am ount of AP at the
allum inium foil, atleast, the foil is much more dam aged, test it a few tim e s a n d s e e .
I m ust say that when I want to detonate such a sm all am ount of AP, it works 1 of the 10 times I try, the other 9 tim es the AP
evaporates.
vulture October 26th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 1 4 P M

Helvetica"> Vulture, ofcourse is NG more powerfull then AP, But I found o ut that 1 sm all drop of NG at the allum inium foil is not
a s p owerfull as the same am ount of AP at the allum iniu mfoil, atleast, the foil is much more dam aged, test it a few tim e s a n d
see. <hr /></blockquote>As i stated in m y previous post, this is
because NG will not detonate reliable from flam e only!

I did not detonate the NG in a flam e, I had it in this foil which was pressed together, and heated it above the flame and did
detonate, very very loud.
Anthony October 26th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 2 4 P M

NG can detonate in both a high and low order fashion. The latter is still a detonation and appears so in all respects, but is
considerably weaker that what it can do when driven by a good cap. IIRC we're talking som e t h i n g l i k e 3 0 0 0 m /sec when it goes
low order.
T h i s m ay be what causes the NG to look weak compared to the AP.


Allrighty then ! now I now it, thanks dude !
knowledgehungry October 27th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 5 : 4 1 P M

W ell the AP when dissolved in acetone failed to detonate, in fact it hardly burned, so no pictures :(. It wasn 't even fully
dissolved so lack of AP per Acetone wa s n o t a n i s s u e .

too bad !
I s t h e r e n o t s o m e kind of other liquid?

Or would that fail also ?
knowledgehungry Novem ber 4th, 2002, 05:34 PM

I was thinkin something with high oxygen content m ight work since AP is oxygen deficient, but im not sure.
VX Novem ber 4th, 2002, 11:58 PM

knowladgehungrey, in your po st you im ply that you tryed to detonate your solutio n by ignighting it. If this is the case then this
will alm ost certainly not work. To stand any chance of it working, you will need to detonate it, and you will probably need a very
powerful detonator at that. I would try at least two gram s, subm erged in a saturated solution, with good confinem ent. If that
doesnt work, go for a slurry of peroxide/ acetone which is m ore likely to work. However it is worth conciderin g efficiency, as this
will alm ost certainly be affecte d, in a negtive way :( . Good luck, and kee p us posted with the results
Aaron-V2.0 Novem ber 5th, 2002, 02:17 AM

If a liquid organic peroxide is what your seeking then why not try the anhydrous dim eric form of MethylEthylKetonePeroxide?
From what I read it's a stable (Stable for a peroxide...) primary that needs a cap for detonation. There's an inform ative thread
on MEKP and it's synth on the ScienceMadness.org's forum s.
<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthrea d.php?tid=20" target="_blank">http://www.sciencem a d n e s s . o r g / t a l k /

viewthread.php?tid=20</a>
I'm going to try synthesising it after m y go at HMTD because A) It's supposed to be very stable and B) It's in liquid form , I've
alwa ys wante d experience with a liquid explosive.
E D I T : F i x e d U R L , s e e m s like alm o s t e v e r y p o s t I d o h a s s o m ething wrong with it. <im g src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/

icon15.gif" alt=" - " />
<sm all>[ Novem ber 05, 2002, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: Aaron-V2.0 ]</sm all>
knowledgehungry Novem ber 5th, 2002, 07:05 PM

I will test out AP in acetone after m y AP is finished being made, probably this weekend. I'll let you know results ratios etc.
Thanks for input.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > ap sludge - archive file
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shady m utha
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 149
From : austra lia
W hen I add the acid to m y ap fast it I get a jar full of sludge in 5 m ins flat!what the fucks going on?Add the acid slow and it
t a k e s a b o u t 5 t i m es longer,and I get the nice crystals.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
m abe its breaking the crystals down. a re u using hydrochloric or sulfuric?..and what % and what are the ratios?
------------------
Explosives Archive
shady m utha
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 149
From : austra lia
I m u s i n g t h e hydrocloric{diggers}100m l 5 0 % h 2 0 2 3 0 0 m l a c e t o n e 7 5 m 30% hydro acid
MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
If you add the acid quickly it speeds up the reaction considerably,though the AP produced is often rather weak,insensitive to
s h o c k . W ith AP,nice and slow is the way to go!.
------------------
"That which does not kill us,m a k e s u s s t r o n g e r "
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
when i add acid too fast, it m akes thedicycloacetone peroxide which in my experience is larger crystals..
[vehemt: what the fuck does watching movies have anything to do with this topic, or the forum in general? Please keep your
posts on topic.]
------------------
Explosives Archive
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y v e h e m t (ed ited January 22, 2001).]
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
i have seen 32% hcl added really fast (~30 mils added all at once) and the result is a nice fine powder like AP. which will
detonate with a sm a c k o f a h a m m er.
------------------
...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
R e m eber that the dicyclo is more sensitive so it's im portant to keep the reaction cool and add the acid gradually and with
plen ty of stirring.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
yes but when this so m entioned AP is wrapped in AL foil (one layer or two layers of Al foil) and placed in a burning p o o l o f g a s
(as so described by Ho ju, i th i n k ) t h e A P d e t o n a t e s a n d s o m etim e s p u t s o u t t h e f l a m e . t h i s A P i s d o n e b y , o f c o u r s e a d d i n g
all the HCl at once... I have never seen anyone have a problem with there AP when dumping all the HCl in at once.
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...
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
you will if u are using 35% h202. i.e, tear gas, and som etimes ap that is soo wea k that it burns lik e flash powder
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Explosives Archive
MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
T h e w e a k A P I ' m refe rring to was m ade with sulfuric acid,added quickly.A small amount was wrapped in foil,placed on an
a n v i l , a n d p u m meled several times witt a hamm er.Nothing happened,except being left with an extrem ely th in sheet of alum .
foil and AP!.CragHack,were you using 6%,or stronger?. BTW ,when lit,it burned about like unconfine d g a s o l i n e f u m e s .
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shady m utha
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 149
From : austra lia
The sludge is very ex plosive.Because I didnt trust the sludge I put a pile in the back yard and threw a sparkler on it.boom ,it
d e t o n a t e d a n d s h o o k the house.I can filter the sludge out put the mix back in the fridge and in 4 hours I have A another jar
full.The sludge appears when you add the acid to fast a nd the jar warms up.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
The "sludge" is just e xtremely fine AP crystals.
I'vbe found that rushed (i.e gets warm s) AP produces powdery crystals whereas is you take your time and cool it extra well you
get nice big flaky crystals.
I've also never had "AP" that wouldn't detonate! Could (big guess here) it have been m ono-cyclo AP?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
i have used 3% in the past. i have always used it as a matter of fact.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > ...something went really weird with my AP....really wierd! - Archive file
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Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
the first time i made AP, i cut the ratios down so i could see what AP was meant to look like....basicly, it was just a test run
i made some AP up yesterday with the following method:
60ml or H2O2 -10%
48ml of Acetone - 99%
20ml of HCI - 32%
because my H202 is only 10% i thought i would add 70ml.(the mixture was meant for 30%)
today i filtered it
and this is what i find wierd, i have about 8 heaped table spoons of AP
now, this is only my second go at AP, so has something screwed up? should i have this much AP from such a small mixture?
the first time i made AP, i got a fairly small ammount of AP, and i came out as a paste like substance, not really crystals
this batch has come out like a crystal paste...you can see tiny tiny little crystal in it, but its very pasty...
i might go take a piccie so you can see what i'm takin about...
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
I dont know how much their should be, but here is what happens when I make mine.
60ml 27% H2O2

48ml 100% Acetone
20ml 31.45% HCl
Put the H2O2 in a wine glass in the freezer and watch TV for a while or get a large bowl and fill it with ice water, but dont let it freeze (I know the 3% will, but I dont know
about the 27%). It should be about as cold as ice water (dont poke your finger in there to test the temp, go by time). Put the reaction container in the ice bath (its ok if it
floats, just dont let no water in). Add the Acetone. Then add about 10-15 ml HCl and stir for 30 seconds. Make a sandwich and eat it (wash your hands first). Add 15-20ml
acid, stir agian, eat another sandwich. Add the rest of the acid and stir one more time. Wait about a hour or if you are all out of AP, 30 minutes. T-shirt filter it (after I fiter it in
a shirt I like to squeze it in my hand and get the rest of the juice out). Wash it with Sodium Bicarbonate. Then let it dry for a while (the drying time changes from person to
person, I dry it for 2 days or so inside). Then sell it, burn it, or blow it up, but dont store it for more than a month. I havent stored it for more than about 4-5 days.
Do you see any major differances between my process and yours? Hope this helpes.
IronWarlock
Frequent Poster
Posts: 97
From:
you using a plastic bottle or glass jar?
------------------
back and better than ever
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
When I make AP with 30% H2O2 it also looks like paste. When you dry it (I simply put it onto a thick paperboard and let it stand for a while) it'll look more like crystals.
A glass jar is better than plastic but I don't think that the plastic that is dissolved a bit by the acetone will disturb the reaction (although I'm not 100% sure about this).
Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: Topeka,ks,USA
Hey Cricket I was wondering where you got your 27$ h2o2 at. So far I have only found 3% h2o2 and that was at a walgreens.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
Baquacil ......baquacil.com 4 the us and hydropool for other locations

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C olor - archive file
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Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
I just mixed up the Hydrogen peroxide, Acetone, and hydrochloric acid as instructed in the Makshift arsenal, ut I double the
a m ount of H2O 2 because I only use 3%. After stiring th e m t h e m ixture looks sort of merkey white, and not anything close to
the pic in Makeshift a rsenal. I was won dering if the m ixture changes color with tim e, or did I do som ething wrong.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
T h e M a k e s h i f t a r s e n a l ' s A P s o lution is brown - it shouldn't be, it's due to the bran d of one of the reactants. The solution sho uld
be clear unle ss cloudy with white crysta ls.
Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
O k T h a n k s A n t h o n y . S o n o w a ll I gots to do is let it sit.
The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
From : C olum b u s , O H
I ' v e o n l y m a d e a b o u t 5 b a t c h e s , a n d e a c h t i m e they we re merky white, looked cloudy. It did clear up as m ore AP was produced
though.
Motox31
A new voice
Posts: 7
How long does it usually take for your ap to dry?
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 591
From : ?
I always let it dry for 24h then it`s ready to use

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > "cutting" Acetone Peroxide - archive file
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
I have been recently been experementing with cutting Acetone Peroxide with household products to streatch your AP Supplies. I tried it with baking soda, backing powder, flour,
and starch with some fairily decent results. Baking soda was by far the best. Using a 25% Backing Soda and 75 %ap, I did a few tests. First was a conflageration test. I lit
about a gram in the open. If Made a fireball about the same size as usual ap which is good because you get 25% more explosives for your buck. Theres one downside though,
it maked a fair amount of smoke. Under detonation it was less powerful with ap but is still worth cutting If you need a bit more explosive to work with. I havent tested Impact
sensitivity yet, but i suppose the bicarbonate will neutralize any remaining acid if any. The flour and otheres did not perform quite as well. They mostly burned like BP and
threw most of the additive all over the place, So bicarbonate is the abvious winner. Go Out and give it a try! If you are willing to be responsibe for your actions that is. :-)
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Explosives Archive
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited January 28, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
How about AN? If it detonated it would boost power by releasing a large volume of gas. If it didn't, it would act as an oxidiser and give a better oxygen balance.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
the only way that would work is for the AP to get hot enough to make the AN react. this might work if you use enough AP but a little bit night not be enough to do anything to
the AN.
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...
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
I always cut the stuff I sell, but for my own use I snort the pure stuff as it gives a better buzz :p
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
Ive kneeded ap into bluetack,it detonates but the more ap you put in the more the bluetack looses it stick
Smartguy
A new voice
Posts: 11
From:
I KNOW for a fact that when you cut HMTD with KClO3 it will actually INCREASE in power!
This will probably work with AP too. Make the oxygen balance 100%, and see what happens.
(If I'm not mistaking, the optimal mix was 80% HMTD/20% KClO3.)
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 346
From: UK
i'll have to try cutting my next batch.
my last 3 batches failed to produce any HMTD and i don't know why. i did everything like i allways do but for some reason nothing formed. Could it be that the hexamine had
absorbed moisture but i wouldn't think that would affect the reaction as the hexamine is going to be dissolved in the peroxide anyway.
thats kinda of the subject though.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
That's kinda strange.What concentration of H202 are you using?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Detonation? - Archive file
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The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
I m a d e s o m e AP putty using sp, pretty weak th ough. 2g AP to 8g Winchester Ball powder (20% just seem e d l i k e a g o o d
n u m ber to start with). After it dried I broke it up into sm all piece s. In burning it som e would flare up, some burnt slowly, and
s o m e just made a crack sound. The crack didn't cause any ear ringing, but would often launch the piece about 3-4ft. Now I'm
wondering if this was an actual detonation or was it a deflagration from with inside the pellet itself?
Ok just lit off som e of my 20% AP putty. Damn , little to no flash , sounded like a low vel .22lr round going off, the whole thing
probably didn't weigh 5g. Initiated with fuse pulled from a bottle rocket. There was no container or shell, just the AP putty
itself. Now I'm a s s u m ing that what I just got was a detonation. Sweet, that had to b e t h e s m a l l e s t o n e I ' v e e v e r g o t t e n .
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
I think you've got too m uch NC in there, the detonation wave can't travel because the AP crystals are too seperated.
"I broke it up into sm all pieces" - Is that a goo d idea?!
The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
It was pretty rubbery when I pulled it a part, the whole lump was pretty sm all.
I l o a d e d s o m m e AP into a .22lr last night, I lit if off today and d a m n , l o u d e n o u g h to m ake my ears ring. I loaded it while it
was pretty wet and didn't com press it much at all. I had probably around 50-75% shrinkage as it dried. Can the density be
increased and shrinkage decreased by adding a filler? Are the recom m ended fillers or am I thinkin g o f s o m e t h i n g s t u p i d h e r e ?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Drying AP - Archive file
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wiredfreak
A new voice
Posts: 17
From : n o n e o f y u o r f u * * i n g b i s s n e s U S A
I just tried sm othing new i put a wet batch of AP in a food dryer it took about 2.5 to dry
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
2.5 what? And do you think that question is really worth making a whole new topic for?
Sort your questions out!
king s p a z
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 346
From : U K
well it is a sh ite question for a new topic but what i do is filter the AP through a piece of cotton. Then i rap the cotton round the
blob of AP and wash it a hell of alot. Then i tak e lots and lots of kitchen roll and m ake a really thick pad (kinda like a big
sanitry towl). Then i put about 3 layers of newspaper on it. Then finally i put the piece of cotton on it. The kitchen roll and
newspaper suck the moisture out leaving the AP only slightly dam p in a short time.
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
k, first of all, what the hell is a "food d ryer",and second 2.5 what?
Brainm o n k e y
A new voice
Posts: 37
From : Derry, N. Ireland
i think it is one of those rotary lettuce dryers, u know witht the handle on top and it spins this mesh basket inside really fast.
Anyway, i would say it would be 2.5 m in, cos ho urs or seconds just dont seem right someh ow
------------------
ours is not to question why.. ours is but to do and die...
yeah right so whose gonna try and tell me what to do?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
i put the ap on a stack of lined paper for about 3 days. this insu res a nice dry AP. one im portant thing though, is i change the
paper (and by stack i m ean like 5 sheets) every day. the paper sucks the moisture out of the AP. this is much faster than
evaporation.
------------------
...
wiredfreak
A new voice
Posts: 17
2.5=2 1/2 hours, a food dryer is something that you dry food fruits m eats and anything you want dryed in
wiredfreak
A new voice
Posts: 17
it has a electric moter not a lo t of heat (thats g ood) and it m oves the air around alot (thats good to) for making beef jerky
and crap like that
[This message has been edited by wiredfreak (edited January 28, 2001).]
Energy84
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 82
From : Earth
W hy not use verm iculite(so?) to dry yo ur AP? I forget what it's used for but you can find it in most hardware stores. Shroom
growers usually use it to dry their shroom s 'cause it absorbs LO TS of water and ta k e s a l o t o f t h e h u m idity out of the air arou n d
it. It comes in a coarse white powder so if you were to use it for drying AP I think that you could just put your filtered/washed
AP on a paper towl overtop of some of this stuff. I shou ld dry it out in ab out a day or so. It only ta k e s a b o u t 5 d a y s t o
completely dry out about a do zen shro oms with 1 or 2 cups of vermiculite. well, at least I think that's what it's called.
------------------
why oh why didn't I take the b lue pill?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
that is what is called a desicant. if you can't find anyweher to by it, you can go to a clothing store a nd take the little packets
out of the pockets of clothes (which are marked do not eat) these are also desicants. you get a bunch of these packits and
you are all set.
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...
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
I know they're poison ous, but why do they stress so mu ch that you don't eat the things? (those m o i s t u r e a b s o r b i n g p a c k e t s )
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
a disclaimer! you kno w so they dont get sued!
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
Oh, I was hoping it would be some lethal poison that was extrem e l y d a n g e r o u s . I c o u l d p u t i t i n s o m e o n e ' s t e a , b u t I d o n ' t
h a v e a n y o n e that I hate enou gh to do that to. Or do I.......
MUAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I'M NOT A SLAVE, TO A GO D, THAT DOESN'T EXIST!

I'M NOT A SLAVE, TO A W O R L D , T H A T D O ESN'T GIVE A SHIT!!!!
It's the lyrics to "the fight song" by Marilyn Manson.
FIGHT!! FIGHT!! FIGHT!! FIGHT!! FIGHT!!
Anyone heard of that song? It rules! I'm not a satanist, but his m usic's great!
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y b l a ckadder (edited January 28, 2001).]
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 534
From : Som ewhere on this earth....
posted January 28, 2001 06:26 PMI went to the Tampa Fl show, Disturbe d suck but gODHEAD were good live and up close.
But, this is neither the section, or an appropriate post, or the appropriate BBS for us to be disscussing Mr Brian Warner, John
Lowery, Stephan, or Twiggy.
------------------
W hoa, where m y fingers?
Mick
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 229
From :
the reason you can't eat whats in those little packets is cause it dehydrates you b ig time, and you have a little trouble
breathing...
...i er...ate one of them when i was 4 =\
its n ot pretty...
and when i said it dehydrates you, it dehydrates EVERYTHING (including your shit.)
and theres nothing worse then shitting a turd rock.
i r e m e m ber about 4 days afte r i ate th e packet, my skin turned a funny color..sorta green /red, and it flaked of, and m y
fingernails, and toenails turne d a green color too
i can rem e m b e r t h e y g a v e m e s o m ething to rem o v e t h e p o i s o n f r o m t h e silica, but it still dehydrated you, so you had to drink
around 3-4 litres of water a day for 2 weeks
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
O h m y god,
"there's noth ing worse than shitting a turd rock"
D a m n that m a k e s m e l a u g h !
W ow, that's pretty bad. Your skin turned green?
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
y o u m u s t h a v e e a t e n a w h o l e S H I T L O AD (hahahahah) of that to do that!
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
Blackadder: They stress not to eat them s o m uch m uch because they are easily mistaken for salt. Because i f s o m e o n e g o e s o
put one on their french fries and sees a big "Do not eat", they will realize it's not salt.
MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
O-K,back to topic.You can use a cloth filter to speed up the dry tim e s o m ewhat.Filter it with a 16 by 16 square inch piece of
cotton t-shirt,then bring the corners up ,twist the AP into a ball in it,wrap the excess cloth around the ball.Then squeeze the hell
out of it!.After the excess cloth has absorbed all the m oisture it can,do the sam e with 3 or 4 folded-over sh eets of paper towel
a few times.3 or 4 tim e s r e m oves alm ost all the moisture.then sread it o ut on several styrofoam p l a t e s ( n o d e e p e r t h a n 1 /
16th. to 1/8th. deep)and it com pletely dries in 3 to 6 hours at room temp.(70 to 75 Faren hiet).BTW ,this method is for a larger
batch(wrapped-up golf ball or larger),sm aller batches would take less paper towels,smaller filter cloth.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
I d o s o m e t h i n g s i m ilar. Except i use a coffee filter. I have a special towel for doin g t h i s . T h e % 3 5 h 2 0 2 h a s t u r n e d t h e o n c e
green towel red. I then squeeze it with paper towels for a few m ins with g loved ha n d s . F o r s o m e r e a s o n , T h e second i com e
into contact with wet ap i get the sniffles! lol.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Loudness Of Aceto ne Peroxide? - archive
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endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
I a m not a "kewl bom ber" wanting to knwo if its like "as totally loud as an m-80 man, is it that would be totally rad", i am
asking compared to other low explosives,(i know ap could be a high explosive), how loud is a, say....a paper confined gram of
Ap com pared to Black Powder, Flash powder, arm strongs, Merc. Fulm inate, i would like to know for a reference on the soun
created by explosives. Akward question I know but will anyone with experience in Ap rank Ap's loundness am ong other things,
Thanks
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
How long is a piece of string?
T h e r e a r e t o o m a n y v a r i a b l e s t o g i v e a n a d e q u ate com parision, plus, how can you tel how loud som ething was when your ea rs
are ringing.
Needless to say, AP is much louder than LE mixes because it actually creates a supersonic shockwave. AP * is* a hig h
explosive, not "could be".
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
i have actually detonated about half a thimble full of AP (the thim ble is the size of the piece used in monopoly...this is the
best reference i could give because i do not know the weight) an d it is about as loud as a supersonic .22 bullet. it had a nice
crack and i could here the sho ckwave carry and echo on the lake next to where i set the cracker off.
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...
radar
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 63
From : R edding California
Yeah about that loud. ^

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > nitrocellulose - Archive file
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MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
I've just bought som e ping pong balls, how can i know what is nitrocellulose, so that i don't bye som e plastic shit. Is
nitrocellulose a good replacem e n t f o r s m o k e l e s s p o w d e r i n m a k i n g a p - p u t t y ?
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
SP is better, but that will work (if you b ought the wright ones). I think you just have to mix it with acetone. Just read the
Makeshift Arsenal (dont know if it gots ping-pong ball info in it, but it does have the procedure for AP putty).
Crux
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 71
From : austra lia
There are two sim ple tests
Try to light one of the balls. W hen the ball takes fire easily and burn with a big, orange flam e, it is nitrocellulose.
P o u r s o m e a c e t o n e o v e r o n e o f t h e b a lls. W h e n t h e y s o f t e n a n d dissolve, it's nitrocellulose.
W hen both tests are positive, you can use the ping pong balls, they are certainly the right ones.
MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
I ' v e m a d e m y ping-pong ball putty, and it dosen't seem to harden? its been 2 days since i've m ade it. Is it suposed to
harden?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
Yes it should harden within a few hours, depending on the size of the lump of putty. I've never had any problem s u s i n g p i n g
pong balls (beside the expense).
Nigh tStalker
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 116
From :
I n e v e r h a d p r o b l e m s with this too... you mustn't use too m uch aceton... just eno ugh to get it to a consitence like thin honey
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MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
I is m oulded inside a pvc pipe, could this have something to do with it? There is no endcaps on the pipe.
Nigh tStalker
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 116
From :
The smaller the place it touches the air the longer you will wait... I would make a paper tube of the sam e d iam eter put it in
and dry it then insert it into th e pipe...
------------------
SofaKing
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 392
Acetone disolves PVC, abeit slowy but never the less you should take precautions or you could have problem s.
------------------
"ARE YO U R P A P E R S I N O R D E R " - - J a c k B o o t e d T h u g
MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
I u s e d a p a p er matchbox, to m old the putty in, it worke d.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > PERO XIDES - Archive file
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shady m utha
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 149
From : austra lia
This is culled from chem isty and techology of explosives.vol 3
The explosive properties of peroxides have attracted attention for a long tim e,m ainly because of their initiating
propertys;nam ely,in a confined space burning readily passes into detona t i o n . I n s p i t e o f t h i s n o n e o f t h e p e r o x i d e s h a s f o u n d
pracical use.Som e are rather unstable,others are very volatile and all are highly sensitive to friction and im p a c t ; e g . a c e t o n e
peroxide,very easily prepared by the a ction of potassium p e r s u l p h a t e o n a c e t o n e i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f s u l p h u r i c a c i d p o s s e s s e s a
very high vapour presure and is highly volatile at room temperature.In a thin ope n vessel a thin la yer of the substace loses
half its wieght in approxim ately 3 months Thr chem asch-technishe rrichsanstalt determ ined the rate of detonation o f acetone
p e r o x i d e i n a t u b e o f 6 . 3 m m diameter;the rate of was found to be5190m /sec when thes.g was1.6 and 5290m /sec whenthe s.g
was1.2
A peroxidewhich might have pracical im p o r t a n c e a n d w h i c h h a s b e e n t h e s u b j e c t o f e x t e n s i v e s t u d i e s , i s h e x a m e t h y l e n e d i a m i n e
p e r o x i s e , s o c a l l e d h m td,a substance with a m .p 145.c
legler{86}was the first to prep a r e t h i s s u b s t a n c e b y t h e a c t i o n o f h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e o n a m m onium salts in the presence of
form aldehyde.later,girsewald obtained it by the treatme n t o f h e x a m ethylenetetram ine with hydrogen perox ide.At present,it is
rather difficult to decide betwe en these two formulae,but it seem s certain that the substan ce contains m e t h l e n e m i n o g r o u p s n -
ch2 and peroxy groups-o-o-.this view is suppotedby the observa tion of t urbanski that the action o f nitric acid on
h e x a m e t h y l e n e d i a m inean the p r e s e n c e o f a m monium nitratr leads to the form ation of cyclonite and formic acid.
H e x a m ethyenediamine peroxide is prepared by dissolving 14g of hexy in 45g of 30%hydrogen peroxide in a beaker chilled
with a m ixture of ice and com m on salt.21g of powdered citric acid isthen poured into the solution while m aintaining the
temperature below 0.c When all the citric acid h a s b e e n a d d e d t h e w h o l e i s a g i t a t e d o f 3 h o u r s o t o . c a n d a llowed to stand for
2 h o u s a t r o o m temerature.the white crysalline product is filtered off and washed with water and alcohol to aid drying at rrom
temerature.
Ill finish this later.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > PEROXYACETONE - archive file
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FLAMES
A new voice
Posts: 18
From:
i found the anarchy cookbook 2000 edtion and found this stuff I WANT TO KNOW WILL IT WORK. PEROXYACETONE
PEROXYACETONE IS EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE AND HAS BEEN REPORTED TO BE SHOCK SENSITIVE
MATERIALS:
? 4 mL Acetone
? 4 mL 30% Hydrogen Peroxide
? 4 drops Conc. Hydrochloric Acid
? 150 mm Test Tube
Add 4 mL acetone and 4 mL hydrogen peroxide to the test tube. Then add 4 drops concentrated hydrochloric acid. In 10-20 minutes a white solid should begin to appear. If no
change is observed, warm the test tube in a water bath at 40C. Allow the reaction to continue for two hours. Swirl the slurry and filter it. Leave out on filter paper to dry for at
least two hours. To ignite, light a candle tied to a meter stick and light it (while staying at least a meter away).
WILL IT WORK ANSEWR ME ABOUT IT.
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
no, you got the formula a little wrong. Your formula is missing the most important part. Before you use the hydrochloric acid you have to keep your hand in it for 5 minutes.
This lowers the acidity of the acid.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
well, as a habit you shoudnt take info directly from the anarchist's cookbook and try it, and it is acetone peroxide tri acetone tri peroxide or tatp
that I dont think is a very good ratio to make ap also what % of h2o2 (hydrogen peroxide) did you use beacuse the stuff for first aid is only 3%
I would recomend deleting all the files that you have about explosives that have anarchy written in them. also all the anarchist's cookbooks are shit, yes even 2000
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
also you shouldnt demand things here, it gets bad responses
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
That procedure sounds very familiar, I think it's a lab procedure for TCAP I read once, except that it used H2SO4, not HCl.
I second what pyro500 said, some of the info in anarchy crapbooks does work as it is ripped off from reliable sources. However, it's far better to get it directly from a reliable
source, that way you know it has been altered by some 12 year old kewl who doesn't have a clue what he's doing and goes by the name of the Jolly Roger(er).
Never post anything from any crapbook! When NBK gets back you'll get into shit for doing it.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Its the irregularity in the crapbooks that makes them bad, some good some bad and without any experience or technical knowledge people dont know any better.
Visit mega's page for future reference on explosives.

<a href="http://surf.to/megalomania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/megalomania</a>

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Surely the solution isn't meant to be pink?!?! - archive file
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Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
Can anyone help me?!
I've made HMTD literally hundreds of times, so I was a bit surprised last time when the reacting solution turned a light shade of pink!
I used hexamine fuel tablets, citric acid from the wine making section in "Boot's" and 9% H2O2 (also contains phosphoric acid and phenacetein as stabilisers I think) from a
pharmacy. They're the same ingredients as I always use. The pink colouration wasn't due to diffraction from tiny gas bubbles or anything because it didn't depend on the angle
of the light source.
I'm absolutely sure the flask I did it in was clean, because I always wash them extremely thoroughly because I'm paranoid of contamination.
The finished HMTD wasn't affected at all, I'm just curious about why it happened.
Any ideas?
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Erm... It's setting up valentine's day decorations? All the stores are...
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
i am almost 100% sure it was contamination of some sort. whether the jar itself was contaminated, or something was in one the ingrediants you baught. if you are paranoid,
discard the HMTD (flush it in a public restroom)
------------------
...
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Burn it to dispose of it.
Small quantities at a time (less than a gram).
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
or you could put it in a pile outside like a backyard and light it all off with a fuse onconfined..or..put it on a plastic bag and make an exploding bb gun target! those are often
fun
------------------
Explosives Archive
Smartguy
A new voice
Posts: 11
From:
quote:Originally posted by ALENGOSVIG1:
or you could put it in a pile outside like a backyard and light it all off with a fuse onconfined...
I sure wouldn't advise you to do that! Not unless you want it to detonate.
Years ago, I had to get rid of about 30 grammes of HMTD. But how? I decided to take it with me in one single sheet of tissue paper. Put a fuse in it, lit and dropped while I got
away. I expected a fireball....but got an ear-defening explosion!
BE WARNED!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
I made it into lots of little 1 gram charges and set them off in the garden to get rid of it, although it seemed fine.
I now know what it was! A few crystals of KMnO4 had somehow got inside the lid of the bottle I was using, and one or two had fallen in, but I didn't notice until I looked
closely. I didn't like the idea of HMTD contaminated with a catalyst because it could decompose or detonate when I didn't want it to, so I got rid of it.
Thanks for your help though.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > This Normal? - Archive file
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The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Ok, I tried a quick batch using the 50%HCl. After 3hrs I checked the jar. Observations: cloudy liquid with a suspension of very fine crystals. With agitation the solution became
more cloudy and the crystals dissappeared. I'm assuming with agitation the crystals redissolved into the unreacted acetone. I used 5mL of the acid, rather than 3, the acid is
also higher in concentration than what I've used before, does this explain the faster reaction?
I just checked the jar again and the crystals were present. Been about an hour since it went back in. I didn't agitate the jar however, but it looks the same, maybe more
crystals. Are things "looking ok"?
And a question. Is AP putty made with sp fuse sensitive? Would you say it is more or less sensitive than AP itself?
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
I'm not an expert on this, but...
Ap putty IS fuse sensitive, and its also less sensitive than straight AP, so is safer to keep. Plus its more powerful.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Thanks for that info.
This batch worked overnight, the yield is gonna be small, but I'm sure the rxn is not complete. I filtered what was there and put the liquid back into the fridge, I also added
more acid last night, eyballed about 30mL. My first test: held a match to a small pile (maybe 1g). fffft!, no visible burning, sweet.
I noticed some crystals formed on the glass above the liquid. I'm wondering a way to test for the dimer.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
yes the more acid you use the faster the reaction is going to be. but in my opinion if the reaction is completed under 3 days, no more acid is needed. (just more money you
will have to spend in the long run) i have also seen crystals appear on the sides of the jar, above the liqued, i do not know why this happens, akll i can think of is the fumes of
the 3 mix above the liqued and form AP, or the AP is dissolved in the acetone and when the acetone evaporates in the jar the AP is deposited on the sides of the jar.
what concentration H2O2 did you use?
------------------
...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Or the liquid sloshed up there when you aggitated it, leaving crystals behind. AP puty is more powerful due to its higher density.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
3% hydroge peroxide.
So far I've filtered (I'd guess) 5grams. Played with in small amounts, but no detonations yet. Tomorrow I'll smack some between quarters, so far I've just burnt it. I noticed the
crystals on the side before I agitated the jar, but more afterwards. I'm sure the agitation put some up there.
When this stuff was still a little wet it would flare up when touched off by a match. Dry it just goes with no flame and I can't see any smoke, just "ffft" gone. One test I did get
a little "poof" The jar is still producing crystals too. Speaking of crystals, I'm getting large crystals, probably equal amounts on top and bottom, a few suspended. After washing
and drying I made a "paste" using acetone and kind of ground the crystals and spread them out in a dish. After drying I used a tongue depressor to scrape the dish, they are
very fine now, smaller than table salt, larger than powdered sugar.
About how much is used to fill a matchbox? My first blast using this will be a cap to detonate some sp. I'm sure it will make a better primary than chlorate based flash powder,
it seems to burn much faster.
I got another jar going. I was running low on HCl, so added some phosphoric to the batch. It's producing too, but not as fast.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Whoa in the jar with a mix of hydrochloric and phosphoric acids, I am getting a fast yeild. I am filtering through 140mm, I forgot the size, but I believe it's 2 mircron. It filters
horribly slow, by the time I'm done filtering a quart of solution more crystals are present.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Most people filter through a piece of old T-shirt - much faster!
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
I put a piece of an old T Shirt in a funnel and then put a coffee filter in that,
my reason for doing so is this:
I used just a piece of a T Shirt first time I made AP (about 8 months ago) and I noticed that the piece of t-shirt was soaked and it took 20 hours to become dry enough to
remove the crystals a week later I used a coffee filter and I poured too fast causing a small rip (about 4mm) in the bottom of the filter so I used both at the same time and the
crystals were easier to remove (using an index card) I usually put a small pile on a piece of construction paper and let it sit on a shelf for 6-8 hours to dry doing this it is
possible to remove up to 98% of the crystals from the filter
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Did the t-shirt, much faster, but some of the crystal I think slipped through. I used a mason jar ring to hold a piece of shirt over the jar, I also poked my finger in the center to
give it a little cone shape. Thanks for the tip.
I'm like a kid with a new toy with this stuff. I got some putty drying I maded with sp, but I think it'll be a weak. I'll see tomorrow.
Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
when i filter i just a piece of old boxer shorts but over a jar and held in place with a rubber band this works just fine and it's fast too
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
something just doesn't seem right with using old pants.....
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
gives the ap sort of a brownish color
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
How long will a batch continue to produce? I managed to get all crystals out last night. This morning my yield was about equal to what I got last night, but I didn't filter. It's
now 6pm (just got home form work) opened the fridge and holy Jesus! I've got about 10lbs! Just kidding, probably enough to fill a 35mm film container 1/2 full.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
I have found that sometimes my ap liquid will make a ton of the stuff overnught and then the next day I will filter it, then in a half day a ton of crystals will have made almost
instintaniously, maybee it is cause the acetone cant hold any more ap

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > transporting AP and HTMD - Archive file
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Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
OK I made some AP and I need to go to my friends house to blow this stuff up at the gravel pits and he lives 15 miles from me. Is it safe to transport this stuff in the car?
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
I have did it ones i whas scard that they explode on the middle of the high way,I packd it in alot of toilet paper,But i think you better can`t do this it`s very dangerous.
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 <a href="http://www.section1.f2s.com" target="_blank">http://www.section1.f2s.com</a> Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a
<<Forum>>!!!
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 534
From: Somewhere on this earth....
Wash it right... and its safe.
Just put it into a small cardoard box and pack newspapers around it.
------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Ok, how about filling a plastic film canister with dry AP to detonate is that dangerousand also how about a soda can?
and could i use a small funnel to fill either of them up? like will it detonate from friction of it going in to the containers?
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From: Heaven
I think it would go if your AP or HMTD is slightly wet, put it in film cannisters and you sholdn't have any problems.
DON'T transport DRY AP or HMTD!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Wet AP is still flame sensitive so filling your container(s) with slightly damp AP will increse safety (damp AP is considerably less sensitive to shock and friction).
You can even use a dry AP detonator to set off the damp AP.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
split the AP up into smaller amounts in seperate containers. and do not cap the containers. securly fasten them to a part of your car and you are set to go. DO NOT CAP THE
CONTAINERS!. if it goes off you might not get a detonation. this is also why i say split the shit up into smaller amounts.
------------------
...
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
hmm, well, I do it all the time. I just put the ap in a plastic tupperware container, and put in my backpack, ive never had any problems
------------------
Explosives Archive
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
I travel with mine all the time just wrap it up a sheet and treat it like you had a carton off eggs.
THe_rEaL_dEaL February 16th, 2003, 10:59 AM

When I transport it I usually have it ready as a device in my bag. I always ride my bike for transport and tape the film canisters/pill bottle charges. loosely to an esky lid or a
piece of chipboard, facing away from my back. I figure that foam or chipboard (to a lesser extent) are reasonable shock absorbers and could act to disperse the energy over a
larger area than the device.
This is pretty dodgy but as compared to just jumping around unfastened in my bag its a hell of a lot safer.
I Find my AP is fairly insensitive to friction but VERY sensitive to Flame and to a lesser extent flameless heat but more than friction.
EDIT: For car transport. Wood Box 5x size of sum of volume of charges. 5x safety factor. Filled with shockwave absobing media. Pummice/Foam. Center it in the middle of
boot ... plenty of airspace for shockwave diasapation. Box Fastened loosely to boot floor. Box with plenty of holes for pressure release.
[ February 16, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: THe_rEaL_dEaL ]
frogfot February 16th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Placing it in plastic cup and covering with etanole, does it sound practical? It would dry in less than 10 minutes, when poured on a paper towel.
AP/HMTD seemed to be pretty stable in my friction tests. I couldn't initiate it when rubbing it on piece of paper with a plastic card for 5 min. But they easily went off when
rubbed between two metal pieces. That seemed promising. Now, static electricity is other thing, would a paper cup be of choice to avoid it?
Even though im not that much into HEs, I have thinking to reinforce my "camping" bag with some 1mm steel plates. :D
Nihilist February 19th, 2003, 11:16 PM

could you also dissolve it in acetone and transport it relatively safely in a glass bottle, and then let the acetone evaporate?
Sarevok February 20th, 2003, 12:53 AM

Posted by Nihilist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />could you also dissolve it in
acetone and transport it relatively safely in a glass bottle, and then let the acetone evaporate?<hr /></blockquote>I
don't think so. Some Acetone Peroxide or HMTD will evaporate with the acetone, they decompose very quickly. But I never tried this, I am just wondering.
[ February 20, 2003, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: Sarevok ]
kingspaz February 20th, 2003, 08:37 AM

acetone evapourates quick, but not that quick!
i certainly wouldn't want to sit around for a few hours while i let a bottle of acetone evapourate.
just put it in a box of pumice and if it goes off the damage will be kept very localised. if you want a smaller risk of it going off by itself then don't use AP or HMTD. this is what
they are best at :D
Efraim_barkbit May 5th, 2003, 12:52 PM

when I was going to a friend of mine, with my moped on a dirt road for 2km, and for 6km on tarmac (asphalt????) I made a wooden box and put on the back.
I used a pice of thick cardboard to the wall facing backwards.
I filled it with styrofoam pieces used for packing fragile stuff, and put my AP in two small sealable plastick bags and then i put it in the box.
I had quite much styrofoam in it, so when I shaked the box (without the AP in it), it made no sounds, so I knew that nothing inside could bump around.
some day I will set off a filmcanister of AP inside it to see how it works, if it just blow away the cardboard pice, or if the whole box breaks.
then I will know how safe it is.
(hope you understand what I meant, since English isnt my first language)
elvis May 5th, 2003, 03:56 PM

Yes, that could be done, yet the peanuts might cause electrostatic charges,
and when you open the box... So, you might want to use a solid piece of
styrofoam with holes cut in it, then put pillows in the box, and there you go.
Any blast will be sufficiently dampened, and little or no possibility of unwanted
detonation will be achieved. I was once storing primers in a box, with the foam
packing nuts, and decided pull it down one day. I opened it up and one went
off, then they all went. I almost had to get a skin graft, I was lucky for I only
had second degree burns, and two pieces of shrapnel.
EDIT: Whoa, I hit tab accidentaly, and then hit enter to go down a line, and it posted before I could finish. Sorry!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > whoa, weird AP - Archive file
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The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
I u s e d t h e s a m e recipe as in m y "Please Respond quickly" post, but I'm having some pretty weird AP form ing. To put it as
sim ple as I can there are fluffly little clouds floating in my jar an d there are 3 layers visible. W hite clouds on the bottom , a
clear layer, then a layer of tan liquid (the H2SO 4 m ade the whole solution tan at first). Any one know what's going on, I'm
confident that the jar was pretty clear.
I'm also wondering if I form e d t h e d i m er and is there a way to tell in a reasonably safe manner?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
Larg er crystalls are usually the dimm er ver
------------------
Explosives Archive
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
the tan is probly an im purity. if you want to be really safe, discard the wh ole batch in a public restroom , if you don't really care,
(which i wouldn't, i would at least test the stuff first,) i would keep a close eye on the finished result and m a k e s u r e t o u s e i t u p
within days. the dimm er is m ore unstable then the trim m er. hit it with a ham mer, lightly, and if you know your other AP
wouldn't have gone off and this one did... then you have the dimm er (most likly) try the test where you placed the stuff
between the two pennies. where you actually slam med it the second tim e to m ake it detonate... try it with this AP and see if
you can get it to go o ff just by lightly dropping it. the key to figu ring out, is consitency in your testing.
------------------
...
The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
thanks
will test
the crystals appear to be pretty fine, but I've never seen them "clump" together like that.
The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
Did first pull a flam e test on the wet crystals ap peared to be as normal. These crystals are ultrafine.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
that is good, that is the way you want them. i p ersonally have never got anything but ultrfine, flour like crystals. mine have
also always been really powerful too.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > W ood stick - Archive
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extrem e
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 102
From :
p o s t e d N o v e m ber 20, 2000 07:35 AM
Is it ok if i stir the apsolution (H2O 2 + Acetone + HCl) with a wood stick?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
posted Novem ber 20, 2000 05:29 PM
I usually use a b a m b o o s k e w e r a n d h a v e h a d n o p r o b l e m s .
SofaKing
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 392
The handle section of a water jug works great and is unreactive.
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
I u s e a 1 . 4 m m wooden dowel
It's the ram rod for my spudgun.
Rhadon
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 95
From : Germ a n y
I'm sure stirring is no t necessary at all, but if you need to, I would recom m e n d a r o d f r o m plastic or glass (wood is attacked by
the HC l and the acetone, what will lead to impu rities in the AP)
Cricket
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : U SA
As I said in an earlier post, I just use a straw. They are free at a restaurant and last for a while. I think they are HDPE, they
dont m elt qu ickly. They crack a little bit at the ends after a couple batches, but they are free. I dont think they contam i n a t e
the AP much or even at all.
angelo
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 279
From :
just get a glass rod from your school chem l a b

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Holy grail organic peroxide!
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BrAiNFeVeR October 13th, 2002, 03:55 PM

Diphoronepentaperoxide(DPPP)
The compound currently being discussed at the madscience forum raises big interest: the starting materials acetone, conc. HCl
and 30% H2O2 are (dirt-) cheap, and the substance performs an incredible vod of about 9000m/s.
Other favourable properties, like better stability than AP, are listed in the following german patent of the late 70`(translation
by Hoffmann-LaRoche):
German patent DE 1951660.
1969
Diphoronepentaperoxide C18H26O2(O2)5
Field of invention: the invention refers to an explosive which has special properties that make it suitable especially for mining
and as well for military purposes.
Task: The invention wants to make blasting operations cheaper and easier.
Solution: Following cheap substances are required for synthesis:
1 part conc. hydrochloric acid(HCl)

1 part acetone (CH3COCH3)
2 parts 30% hydrogen peroxide(H2O2)
Process of manufacture:
1 part of acetone are added to 1 part hydrochloric acid, through which acetone polymerizes to phoron; then 2 parts of
hydrogen peroxide are added, through which two molecules of HCl bond with the two C-double-bonds of the phoron.
In the course of the reaction free chlorine

develops, which bonds with 3 hydrogen atoms of the phoron to give 3 HCl(see drawing) and bonds itself with phoron.
Hydrogen peroxide causes the chlorine atoms to split off the phoron and the peroxide itself bonds with the phoron.
Because of the fact, that one peroxy-bond stays half-opened, one also open phoronperoxide adds to give
diphoronpentaperoxide, which precipitates from the solution in crystalline form.
Properties:
a) insoluble in water
b) still explosive when heavily contaminated
c) detonation velocity approx. 9000m/s
d) low detonation temperature approx. 200C
e) does not develop smoke upon detonation, does not smell, no solid residues.
f) ignition by fire, blasting cap or electric
g) does not decompose at long storage
h) yield of manufacturing process approx. 90%
I have to mention that this was already discussed a bit in the medina-thread of high explosives, but stopped in the early
stage and deserves an own thread.
The madscience thread shows a lot of progress, on the synthesis of phorone for instance.
<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=179" target="_blank">DPPP thread on mad sci</a>

<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=228" target="_blank">Phorone thread on mad sci</a>
I do not take the credit for this post, I just wanted to make sure this exiting new energetic substance is opened up to as wide
as possible of an audience.
This message is posted on usenet too for exactly the same purpose.
Rat Bastard October 13th, 2002, 04:33 PM

Is there more detail on the synth, because it does not state anything about temprature control, or how fast the H202 is added,
ect. ect.
Call me paranoid, but I don't like vaugeness.
[ October 13, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

That's where the "research" comes into play ...
When the patent is followed stricly, you will get mostly AP, and very little DPPP, that's why the most common thought is to first
prepare phorone, then dissolve that in HCl solution, and then add the peroxide.
The production of phorone is allready succesful, (and thus it is easy to produce DPPP from that) but still we need more data on
the reaction and the required quantities/PH-values/...
And then we can compose a good production manual from this!
H2O2 October 13th, 2002, 11:11 PM

sounds interesting for sure!
Boob Raider October 14th, 2002, 01:58 AM

Lets say I try making Diphoronepentaperoxide ...... How would I know that DPPP is formed and NOT AP. What differences does
it have compared to AP. Color, crystaline structure, solubility, etc.....
Now that you mention it brainfever whenever I made AP I added H2SO4 first to the Acetone (I don't know if HCl is crucial for
DPPP synth) but my AP never dissolved in acetone, a shit load of product per batch, it (~150g) didn't decompose on me even
after 7 months in a glass jar with room temp of 40*C. It would detonate even when wet, and would detonate ~ 20*C beyond
the product's melting pt. It had a peculiar smell but on ignition it was odorless and left no residue. I did mention this in my
previous posts when I had the name Ezikiel.
IPN October 14th, 2002, 08:42 AM

This is how I would do it
<blockquote>quote:<hr />preparation:
To a 1000 ml erlenmeyer flask add 185 ml of 20% HCl (i don`t
have 35% HCl at this time). To a second flask add 100 ml of aceton.
To an third flask add 200 ml of 30% H2O2. Cool all to 5 C.
After cooling, slowly add the aceton to the HCl and stir the mixture
for 5 minutes.(very slight yellow colouring over a few minutes)
The patent don`t say heat at this time and the patent don`t say
some product (poron) should precipitate from the solution at this time.
If you heat or not, the content of AP are always present at end of the synthesis. On the contrary, if you heat to much or to
long, the reaction fails.
Cool the mixture to 5 C for 2 hours and stir occasionally.
After standing, set the mixture to magnetic stirring at room
temperature and slowly (over 10 minutes) add the H2O2 to the
aceton/HCl mixture. The temperature can rise over 40 C and
the mixture become a sligth green colouring.
(second reaction-step, formation of pentachlorporon and free
Cl with H2O2 as catalyst)
The DPPP should precipitate on top of the mixture and some fumes bubble of.
You can distinguish this of AP crystalls, which formes in the reaction-mixture and which are a bit larger than crystals of DPPP.
After all H2O2 is added, continue stirring for 2 hours an more till the liquid on the bottom of the flask are clear and no fumes
bubble of.
Filter out the crystals, wash them with 1 L of 10 % sodium bicarbonate solution, and again with water.
Dry crystals of DPPP at room temperature for 48 hours.
The next step are very important to remove all traces of acid and AP in the product, that you can handle safe with DPPP.
Dissolving the crystals in minimum amount of hot ethyl alcohol (60 C),
let cool to 5 C, filter, add a large volume of cold distilled water, let sit for 1-2 hours below 10 C and filter again.
Let dry DPPP at room temperature for 1-2 weeks to decompose and evaporate the rest of AP on the air.<hr /></
blockquote>
BrAiNFeVeR October 14th, 2002, 09:24 AM

I actually tried that sublimation method, but on a far smaller scale.
I had a beginning of 5 grams of product or something, it's been lying in a moderately warm area (15-20C) for more then 3
weeks now, and it still smell alot like AP, and on detonation, still gives the characteristic AP-just-detonated-here smell ...
That plus the hazard of having a large amount of primary to start with on in a warm place !!
Conclusion: this is not the method to go, there's just too much AP that has to sublimate ...
Madog555 October 14th, 2002, 10:47 AM

what concentration H2O2 do you use? i used 12%, with adjusted ratios, and it gave a real shit yield.
ALENGOSVIG1 October 14th, 2002, 01:33 PM

Is it just me, or is this just another recipie for AP? I've read in federoff that the reactants (H202, (CH3)2CO, and HCl) for AP
can be added in any order. I think this is just another AP synthesis.
IPN October 14th, 2002, 01:42 PM

No this is not a recipie for AP. This is much better. If you dont believe me try mixing some acetone and HCL. Notice the
yellow color that is phorone

IPN is right, this is definately not just another AP synth.
When mixing 35% HCl with acetone a yellow liquid is obtained, wich darkens when you boil it.
Phorone specs:
<a href="http://users.pandora.be/l.s/phoron.jpg" target="_blank">http://users.pandora.be/l.s/phoron.jpg</a>
It's pretty insoluble in water, but the HCl seems to make it more soluble. When adding a base, you can ppt out some yellow
crystals which are most likely phorone.
Also, some oily substance can be noticed, I don't know what this is ...
The crystals of DPPP are supposed to be smaller then AP.
Mic October 14th, 2002, 04:00 PM

hello all,
today i tried DPPP: I mix 10mL HCl (31%) with 10mL Acetone (99%). I heat it until the solution turn yellow. I cool it in the
freezer and had 60mL H2O2 (9%). Nothing happen ! :( . no precipitation! I put it in the freezer until now. maybe my H2O2 is
not enaugh concentrate. I will buy 35% H2O2 and gonna try this method again later.
nbk2000 October 14th, 2002, 05:50 PM

(Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth... :D )
I tried making chloroacetone (tear gas) by bubbling gaseous HCl through acetone. The acetone turned yellow and seperated
out a heavier layer.
Over time (weeks) the liquid turned orange, then red, then finally such a deep shade of purple as to resemble motor oil, and
just as opaque.
So, try bubbling HCl gas through the acetone, then treating with baquacil H2O2.
dave October 14th, 2002, 05:51 PM

HOLY SH*T so simple! I have to try this once my hand heals. Sounds like a good alternative to AP. Got all the chemicals in my
garage ready
Mic October 14th, 2002, 08:33 PM

Hello,
I just check the solution in my freezer and some very small cristals (much smaller than AP cristal) are laying on the botom of
the beaker! :) there is not much but maybe there's going to have more later!
Could it be DPPP ? or just AP?
ALENGOSVIG1 October 15th, 2002, 02:00 AM

I dont think crystal size will help you determine anything. If AP crystals were formed in a freezer over a long period of time
they'd be tiny too.
I agree with nbk about bubbling the HCl gas throughtr the acetone. Just make a HCl gas generator as described here: <a
href="http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/hcl-gas.html" target="_blank">http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/hcl-gas.html</a>
If you want to make it anhydrous, bubble the HCl throught some H2SO4 or pass the HCl gas throught a tube containing a
descicant.
[ October 16, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
cutefix October 15th, 2002, 04:34 AM

One thing that is hard to believe is the detonation velocity is extremely high for a peroxide: 9000 m/s Wow! I was wondering if
the data did come from from anarchy archives. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Did somebody of you guys manage to detonate it the same density and compare its performance versus the common
homemade acetone peroxide?
If its indeed is powerful, the conservative rough estimate of its power is in the vicinity of would be around 6000-7000 m/s.
:)

My HCl forms a yellow solution with acetone instantly...It is Digger's brand, and all people I know who use it get the same
yellow colour, that almost resembles urine...
I am quite doubtful of this synth, I believe that the chemists actually prepared AP, and made a rough estimate of 9,000m/s
VoD, being quite out on their judgement. Any explosive with that kind of velocity would be quite well known, even if it wasn't
used by the military.
My 2 cents.
xyz October 15th, 2002, 07:58 AM

Whenever I make AP the solution is always yellow and turns clear again when I neutralize it at the end.
I am not sure what brand my HCL is but I get it from a pool shop and it has the pool shop logo on it (there is only one of this
pool shop too, it's not a chain like bunnings), it is conc. HCL by the way.

That seems to be a good idea NBK that way both (acetone and HCL) will be almost 100% when mixing :D
Anyone heard of a primary with a VoD even close to 9000m/sec?
If this explosive was so powerful, stable, easy and cheap to manufature, then it would have industrial or military usage.
Sounds too good to be true to me, I reckon it's just AP.

Why do you judge it if you havent tried it out or dont know much about it?
I also think that the VoD isnt going to be over 9000m/sec but it will be more than what AP has!
Personally Im not going to try it out because i am mostly interested in information not in preparation.
TheBear October 15th, 2002, 03:47 PM

The only way to be sure if it's as good as stated would be to try out ourselves, right?
Perhaps someone with a detcord could make an estimation. I think that this explosive might very well exist but 9000 m/s
sounds too good to be true. Could some one whos wellequiped try it's shocksensitivity. I think I will do a test on ironplates
comparing regular AP's brisance with this potentionally new explosives and post the results here. I hope I will be able to carry
out these test sometime during the next two weeks.
Anthony, exactly what I thought too: Why isn't it being used if it's as good as stated?
Polverone October 15th, 2002, 09:24 PM

If you just follow the patent directions you won't get much to write home about. I'm not willing to dismiss this entirely as fiction
- somebody did bother to pay the money to file a patent, after all - but I think the actual manufacturing process is more
involved than the patent indicates. As for why it never achieved wide use - well, it does have a poor oxygen balance, which
would limit its overall power, even if the patent's vdet claims aren't exagerrated. On alt.engr.explosives one of the
knowledgeable regulars ("Boomer") claimed the actual vdet is about 6,600 m/s, though I don't know his source. In the same
thread, Philou Zrealone posted a fairly long message about the chemistry involved in producing DPPP. Basically, it sounds
unlikely that the reaction actually proceeds in the way that the patent author imagined it proceeding.
So there's certainly potential for experimentation here, but it is not at all clear that the patent lives up to its claims.

The reason for the VoD not being so high is that DPPPs density is small so when it is highly packed its VoD will increase
giving almost 9000m/sec (if im correct).
Flake2m October 16th, 2002, 07:04 AM

This I gather is the formula for Diphoronepentaperoxide:
C18H26O2(O2)5
I have all the chemicals needed to make DPPP,30% H2O2, HCL and acetone. When ever I make
AP I the solution always turns a yellow colour, I had always though that this might be to do will an Fe compound contaminating
the mixture, but now I know that it is phoron. I am very intrested in this DPPP, If it is as powerful as the patent says and is
more stable the AP then we all might be on to something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . I will try
synthesising this compound this weekend.
Microtek October 16th, 2002, 07:55 AM

I mentioned this in the MEDINA thread, but I'll just summarize my findings. I prepared a batch of some kind of peroxide using
the guidelines in the patent. I used 40 vol % H2O2, 30% HCl and acetone. The product obtained had the following properties:
- Flashed when ignited in the open just like AP, HMTD or NC.
- Was about as sensitive to impact as HMTD ( using a better test than I did at first ).
- Flashed without explosion when ignited in a 2.5 mm tube ( contrary to AP ).
- Was quite volatile and had evaporated almost completely over the course of about one month.
- Detonated when initiated with Ag2C2*AgNO3, but only flashed when initiated with lead styphnate.
- Exhibited much lower brisance in 2.5 mm coloumns than PETN.

I see you didnt let the AP to evaporate meaning bad results. If you would have purified the product your tests would have
been different (if im correct).
Next time first prepare the phorone, purify it, add HCL and continue whith the prosedure.
nbk2000 October 16th, 2002, 12:03 PM

Well phorone has an M.P. of 26-29*C, so that's easy enough to let melt down. Then oxidize with H2O2, filter off,
and...evaporate off AP? How DO you seperate the AP from the DPPP? Crystal size isn't going to help none.

You just said it
Helvetica"> Then oxidize with H2O2, filter off, and...evaporate off AP <hr /></blockquote>It will evaporate because DPPP wont
BLASTER November 2nd, 2002, 04:43 PM

maybe vod should be 9000ft/s and not 9000m/s
Anthony November 3rd, 2002, 09:27 AM

That would be 2743m/s ( :D ) in which case I'd doubt it would be worth pursuing and then I'd bet that is was just the dicyclo or
mono version of AP :p
THErAPIST November 15th, 2002, 01:44 AM

ok not really on topic here but i didnt want to make a new topic for fear of being deleted since i dont post all that much. but
this has to do with peroxide so i figured id put it here.
i had a thought a couple days ago. would it be possible to have a peroxide and a nitrate type explosive? let me explain... say
someone who has little reguard for their own life decided to mix H2O2 with some H2SO4 and some sort of nitrate then tried to make some kind of compound with the resulting mixture? I dont
even know if having a peroxide nitrate is possible. it might be too unstable to exist for even a short time but if it were
possible, the extra oxygen plus the nitrogen and other items in a compound could be a good thing. ive never heard or seen
anything about a peroxide nitrate of any kind so if you have heard of something of the sort please let me know. i was thinking
about attempting to make an HMTD type compound but i would like to have someone elses ideas and opinions about the
subject. i always add a small amount of NH4NO3 to my hexamethylenetetramine, citric acid, and
peroxide when i make HMTD anyways since it seems to give a more powerful product, so i just thought of using H2SO4as a catalyst instead of the citric acid along with a little more xNO3 to maybe somewhat
nitrate. i dunno. its 1 in the morning and im trying to type this up as best i can without confusing anyone and without looking
extremely stupid. but theres my thought. any imput would be appreciated. :(
edit: put in UBB code instead of HTML code for the subs
[ November 15, 2002, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
carbonated November 15th, 2002, 10:39 PM

I'm pretty sure somewhere on the forum it says HMTD can be used to make RDX. Other than that, I have no idea, but since
that is possible, maybe others are.
THErAPIST December 2nd, 2002, 01:03 PM

oh... an update since i had the idea. i put 90 mL of 6% peroxide into a mason jar and then i added the 5 heaping teaspoons
of hex along with 2 heaping teaspoons of NH4NO3 and another 45 mL of 30% H2SO4. when i added the sulfuric the whole
thing turned yellow like orange juice and then got really really cloudy, so i let it set there for a few minutes. within about 10
minutes i had some yellow fluffy precipitate on the bottom and top of the liquid, so i let it sit there another 3 hours. then I
went and filtered and washed the stuff. the stuff was yellow to start with but the more i ran water thrue it the more white it got.
then when i added the 10% sodium bicarb it got pretty much pure white. so i dried it and all and then went and pressed 2
grams (i made 2 batches) into a plastic drinking straw. I fused it and then took it and an acorn squash out into the woods. i
stabbed a hole in the squash with a pencil when i was on the way there. when i got there i put the extremely large blasting cap
inside the hole, lit the fuse and trotted off about 100 feet. when it went off it didnt make much noise at all but ill be damned if
the squash didnt get obliterated. the biggest piece i found was about as big as a marble, and not ona those big marbles
either. not to mention the piece was some 70 feet away. the dirt where it had been sitting was pretty messed up too. in my
opinion it was more powerful than HMTD but i dont know how to conduct many tests to prove this. im gonna make a gram
charge of both and set them on the same thing to test bristance and such sometime soon though. the crystals seem to be
slightly smaller than those of HMTD also. anyone care to give me some ideas on how to test the stuff? or maybe make a
batch yourself and test it? whatever. just makin an update. ill get the pics up when i can. cant find my fire wire <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
[ December 02, 2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: THErAPIST ]
NERV December 2nd, 2002, 05:13 PM

Its possible that the NH4NO3 is mixing with your finished HMTD forming a fuse sensitive AN/HMTD mix. That would explain the
power increase. Although I would think that the AN would be washed away during the rinsing step. I might try to make this stuff
and compare it to a normal batch of HMTD.
On the subject of DPPP, I attempted to make it about a month ago. I never got to posting my results though. I mixed about
10ml of Acetone with 10ml of HCl. I left that standing far about an hour, at that point it had turned a beautiful urine yellow. I
then added about 20 ml of H2O2 to the mix in an ice bath. The solution turned cloudy and started to warm up. After about 2
hours I filtered the product out. I placed it on top of our central heating system for a week to evaporate impurities. About half
of the original materiel was gone at the end of the week. I loaded what was left (about 10 grams) into a paper tube and set it
off in the woods next to my house. When I went to the detonation site I found the AP just detonated here odor in the air. I
think that all I got was AP I am planning on trying it again with all the new developments on the manufacture.
THErAPIST December 2nd, 2002, 08:00 PM

yea im gonna try to make somee DPPP when i can get the time and cash. i went to madscientists forum ands someone there
said they had some success with makin the stuff so i copied what the guy said he did. at the moment though im a little more
supriseed that ona my ideas worked. so im gonna do a little more eexperimenting with whatever it is i made before i go to the
DPPP. does anyone even know what the stuff i made would be called? i dont have the slightest clue.
ShockWave December 2nd, 2002, 08:08 PM

I have done the same thing, After adding the H2o2 there was lot of with powder, after drying I found out that this stuff
evaporated much Faster then AP, and it wasn't really crystalline, like AP, so I still don't know what it was.
Anthony December 2nd, 2002, 08:59 PM

Congrats, you've all made HMTD! :D
ShockWave December 3rd, 2002, 07:15 AM

well, I think you are right !!
Now that I am thinking about it, it was a bit yellow and it didn't burn very extreme like my AP, when I lighted a bit it was more
WHOOM instead of Bhoem.
But... It evaporated much much faster then AP, and I thought that AP evaporated faster then HMTD.
Anyway, If this is really HMTD, than it is the most simple way to make it, and the fastest way, and a very good yield for HMTD !
THErAPIST December 3rd, 2002, 12:33 PM

correct me if im wrong but i thought you were using acetone and not hexamethylenetetramine. acetone wouldnt make HMTD in
any way shape or form.
ShockWave December 3rd, 2002, 12:36 PM

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
How stupid of me, I totally forgot, But it looks Like HMTD, and burns like HMTD
THErAPIST December 3rd, 2002, 01:56 PM

the DPPP stuff burns pretty damn fast with a flash. or at least thats whats stated on madscientists board. ill type the procedure
here when i get home from school.
[:edit:]
this is what i got from the other bored. you may want to scale this preperation down a little though since it was said that the
final yield was 65 grams
To a 1000 mL erlenmeyer flask add 185 mL of 20% HCL. to a second flask add 100 mL of acetone. to a third flask add 200
mL of 30% H2O2. cool it all to 5C. after cooling slowly add the acetone to the HCL and stir the mixture for 5 minutes. (it
should turn a slight yellow color over a few minutes). cool the mixture to 5C for 2 hours with occasional stirring then let the
mixture go to room temp. next stir in the H2O2 over a period of about 10 minutes. the mixture can rise over 40 and the
mixture can turn a slight greenish color.
it was said that "second reaction step,formation of pentachlorporon and free Cl with H2O2 as catalyst" dunno what exactly to
make of that but it was said.
the DPPP should precipitate on top of the mixture and some fumes bubble off. after all H2O2 has been added, continue to stir
for 2 hours or more untill the liquid on the bottom of the flask is clear and no fumes bubble off. then filter out the crystals
wash them with 1 L of 10% Sodium bicarb solution and then again with water.
dry the crystals of DPPP at room temp for 48 hours.
the next steps are mportant to remove all traces of acid and AP in the product so that the DPPP can be the safest. dissolve
the crystals in a minimal amount of hot ethyl alcohol (60C)and then cool it to 5C. next add add a large volume of cold water
and let it sit for 1-2 hours below 10C and filter again. let the DPPP dry and sit at room temp for 1-2 weeks to decompose and
evaporate off any AP that may be left.
the final yield was 65 grams. 5 grams of DPPP was slightly pressed into a hard paper blastng cup and ignited with a match. it
flashed and only bursted the cup. it will detonate only if heated strongly. a second charge was made which consisted of 50
grams of highly pressed DPPP and was ignited. it detonated and it was felt strongly from a distance of over 50 m away.
i had to kind of translate that since the guy wasnt all that great with his english. i'll havta try this sometime soon. :D
ShockWave December 5th, 2002, 11:10 AM

I did the same thing, but I never noticed any fumes, and I don't think that I had DPPP, but I kept about 2gram in a small
pipe with a fuse, in a safe place and will try to detonated some ANNM in a few months, to see if this stuff is storeable.
static_firefly December 7th, 2002, 12:37 AM

I just bought some 50% h202 so im going to try thing too at differnt temps and other things. The thing i cant quite
understand is how will i know that i have DPPP and not AP.
nbk2000 December 7th, 2002, 04:17 AM

Well, if the DPPP isn't volatile, then a fan blowing WARM (not hot) air over it for an extended period of time (days?) would
evaporate off the volatile AP.
Vacuum sublimination would be much faster, but I doubt you have the equipment.
Sure sounds a lot like an AP synth... :rolleyes:
Pu239 Stuchtiger December 7th, 2002, 01:24 PM

It is definitely not an acetone peroxide synthesis.
I did succeed in getting a very pathetic yield of DPPP once. Maybe 0.5g from around 25mL acetone; I don't remember the
exact quantity I used, and I'm too lazy to fetch my lab notebook. It exploded violently with a sharp crack when struck with a
hammer - and when sopping wet.
ShockWave December 7th, 2002, 02:02 PM

what did your DPPP looked like?

Relatively large white crystals; floated in the reaction solution.
knowledgehungry December 7th, 2002, 04:43 PM

well it would seem that someone finally answered what the floating crystals in my AP where, i always got a small amount of
them, i always assumed that they were the dimer form of AP. You learn something new everday.
I have some DPPP going right now but with 3% H2O2 (pool stores are closed for winter :mad: )
I'll let you know results if anyone cares.

of course we care! dammit, we need all info. there may be one tiny detail different to your results than somebody elses which
allows us to make a better estimate at how to prepare it.

The crystals which float on the surface of the solution in a typical AP synth are exactly that - AP.

Following on from kingspaz's post:
Its also REALLY great to read what happenes to other peoples experments and makes other people want to try it out for
themselfs.
Keep up the good work!!

I think I might try this out, it sounds great

Ok i'll post what i did, I poured about 5 mls of Acetone into a beaker then poured 5mls of 28% HCl into the solution, i let the
mix sit over night in the morning it was nice and yellow. I then poured about 25 mls of 3% H2O2 into the solution. The
mixture turned clear in about 2 hours and a few crystals floated to the top i am letting it sit over night to see what i can see.
After i get all the supposed DPPP out of it i am just going to let it sit in a petri dish and watch for signs of decomposition if
there are none we might be on to something if the stuff disappears though im gonna assume i only created AP and give up on
DPPP synthesis for a while.
static_firefly December 8th, 2002, 03:07 AM

I dont think i the crystals float it is DPPP. The other day i made some AP with 50%h202 and the entire flask was filled up with
ap. Cus i had so much i buryed half ( i didnt want it) left a bit out to dry and with the rest i filled the flask back to the top with
water. All of the AP floats for me.
vonK December 8th, 2002, 04:40 AM

You guys say that CTAP sublimes at room temp realatively fast, and I've always believed that. However I must say that I have
never noticed any sumblimation happening to my CTAP, ever.
At this very moment I have around twenty grams of CTAP spread on a paper towel, sitting on a shelf in my bedroom. It's been
there for around two weeks and I haven't noticed any difference at all in the whole time it's been here.
The temp were I live gets up to 28*C at the moment and I leave my windows open so there's a nice (although hot) breeze
blowing through.
I would have thought that if CTAP is as volitial as it is supposed to be then I would have noticed something.
The thing is, the way I see it, you can't rely on the CTAP to be completely removed from your DPPP by sublimation.
I will weigh some CTAP then leave it open to the atmosphere and weigh it again in a week, so that I have some real record,
but I'm fairly certain that sublimation is quite insignificant.
I'd love to know if anyone else has ever actually measured losses of CTAP due to sublimation.
Kurt.
spydamonkee December 8th, 2002, 06:11 AM

i stored 1 gram of AP for nearly two months without a noticable loss, used it for a blasting cap and it worked fine.
was stored on a paper tissue in the cuboard

I think the sublimination is appreciable. I have left containers (margarine tubs) of acetone peroxide uncovered for a week,
which caused a noticeable decrease in the quantity of acetone peroxide (I didn't mass it, because it was obvious).

Ok, I have almost enough DPPP to test it for sublimnination, I dont think that what i have is AP, the crystals are not white as
with AP, rather they are clear.They are floating in my beaker right now.
On a totally unrelated but not worth posting by itself note what is the title for someone with over 1000 posts but who is not a
mod? Just curious.

AP sublimination seems to be a fickle thing. Some people, like Pu239 Stuchtiger lose lots, whereas I hardly notice it. The most
I've ever lost is about 25% by mass, over six months or so.
knowledgehungry, unless I am mistaken, there isn't a title for 1000+ posts.

i think differences in sublimation rate relate to specific batches and the slightly different conditions experienced by each batch
during production. as we know these differences account for a varied ratio of dimeric to trimeric AP between different batches.
the dimeric form would have a higher tendency to sublimate as it has a much lower molar mass than trimeric (about 2/3 mass
of trimeric?).
thus a batch with more dimeric will lose much more mass over 2 weeks than a batch with less dimeric.

I was also going to suggest the difference in volatilization was due to varying ratios of the polymeric forms.
If the temps in the mentioned DPPP synth are correct, then if there is any DPPP made (instead of all AP), then the AP impurity
would likely be mostly trimeric AP, thus much less volatile than the other forms. So sublimination/volatilization would have to
done with the aid of heat or vacuum to drive it all off.
Flake2m December 11th, 2002, 10:09 AM

I am not sure, but I might have managed to make some DPP. Today just before i filtered out my batch I wrote down some
observations:
There appears to be are 3 layers.

The first layer is a white crystaline substance that is less densers than water. The crystals are quite small and are insoluble in
water.
A flame test was conducted and and orange flame was seen.
The second layer consist of a transparent dark yellow coloured liquid, possibly a solution.
The third layer is white crystalline compound that appears to be denser than water. It is insoluble in water and the crystals are
quite small.
When a sodium bi-carbonate solution was added, the solution effervested and all the crystals rose to the top of the solution
and colourless odourless gas was evolved. The transparent yellow colour was diluted out when the crystals where washed &
filtered out.
I have yet to test out the crystals as they are still drying.

*All* characteristics of AP...
megalomania December 11th, 2002, 01:28 PM

It would seem to me that the possibility of AP formation could be avoided if one isolated and purified the phorone before
introducing the hydrogen peroxide. It should not be too difficult to neutralize the excess acid, distill off the remaining acetone,
and possibly recrystallize the phorone a few times. I don't know what phorone will dissolve in though, the Merck Index didn't
have much data in that regard, but I imagine the usual alcohol culprits or standard lab solvents would work. I would even go
so far as to predict the isolation and purification info is in one of the systhesis refs for it, like the Journal of Organic Chemistry
24, 1371 (1959) which I will check this week assuming the library is open during the Xmas break :(
One would then need to modify the DPPP procedure accordingly to reintroduce the necessary acid, rather similar to the AP
process but without acetone. Naturally if the reaction proceeds there would be no possibility of any AP forming (assuming no
phorone reverts back to acetone, but that is likely to be moot). I know this adds a step of complexity, but in the interests of
research where suitable analytical methods are in short supply this method may satisify some curosity. I will do my best to
report on the findings of that journal article in short order.
On the subject of AP volitility, the matter is also affected by the purity of the final product. Using lab grade chemicals typicially
results in a better product which leads to higher volitility. Furthermore, the volitatlity is not something to be measured against
the likes of ether, or other liquid solvent. Think mothballs here, I believe I recently read a reference that said AP volatilizes at
a rate of 30% per 1-3 months. That is high for a solid, but by no means noticeable after a mere week. Such volitality is
typicially measured against other explosives making AP truly noticeable indeed. The military types wants their bombs to sit
around in warm bunkers for years on end, and so in this respect AP is very volitile. For us independant experimenters a few
grams sitting for a few weeks will not exactly create a deficit in the quartermasters logs. It's all a matter of perspective I
guess.
As to user titles, the list goes like this:

0 newbie
10 A New Voice
25 Bottle Washer
50 Amateur
100 Lab Assistant
250 Researcher
500 Sr. Researcher
1000 Scientist
2000 Scientific Genius
5000 Nobel Laureate
At 1000 posts one is conferred the grand title of "Scientist" glorious in its simplicity, and profound in its import.
It was really starting to irk me figuring out the mechanism for this reaction, then I perused the rest of that German patent and
found a proposed reaction scheme and a pic of the target molecule. I drew it out below for all to see. If anyone wants to
compare this with AP I have a nice diagram of the reaction on my website <a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/
acetoneperoxide.html" target="_blank">HERE</a>.
"Our Target Molecule"
<img src="http://www.roguesci.org/images/DPPP.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/images/DPPP_3d.gif" alt="
- " />
[ December 11, 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: megalomania ]

I have never had acetone peroxide float in the reaction solution, not even little specks. Especially all of it.
Megalomania, I recommend reading the thread on this at a different site (link at the beginning of this thread). :)

I have, HMTD too. It's a rather common and acknowledge phenomenon. Or maybe I've actually been making DPPP all these
years?

I've had AP floating and sinking, all at the same time. It varies on what you're doing at the time, whether it's offgassing,
reacting, crystallizing, whatever.
If it's possible to seperate phorone in a pure state, then obviously one should do that. How complex a task that may be, and
whether any acetone is regenerated during the reaction remains to be seen.
Also, is there NO other references to DPPP as an explosive beside the german patent? A single reference is not to be trusted
without independant verification.
Well, Anthony, it looks like it's a race between just you and me to see who gets to claim the "Nobel" title. :p
Mega, have you checked your dragon lately? There's an issue I'm curious about knowing.

I just had a nice reply that got screwed up because of an illegal character :mad: Lets try this again
Does anyone happen to have any good results in preparing phorone here? I will try to get that journal from J Org Chem Friday,
and while I am there I will do a database search for DPPP. Are there any other names for the stuff out there besides
diphoronepentaperoxide? It could help improve my search results.
I noticed in the procedure posted by IPN, and again by THErAPIST, that making phorone at such low temperatures is not likely
to work well. It appears that the reaction is an aldol condensation, which requires a high temperature to dehydrate the
resulting product and form an a,b-unsaturated ketone. First we get acetone combining to form 4-hydroxy-4-methyl-2-
pentanone which is then dehydrated to form its dehydrated product. This chemical either becomes its enol form (good) or
acetone does (bad). If we get the good enol we will form phorone, if not we end up with something I think is called 4,6-
dimethyl-3,5-heptadien-2-one. That is but one of several mixed aldol condensations that we can end up with, all waste
products.
Now then, the product of acetone condensation, 4-hydroxy-4-methyl-2-pentanone, has an equilibrium that forms about 2%.
That is quite low, but as we dehydrate that to its unsaturated form we should get more of it. This would seem to imply a series
of heating and sitting steps may be the best way to get a better yield.
I would propose refluxing the mix of acetone and HCl. The heat is needed to get the dehydrated product. At the very
minimum of the 2% that is converted I would expect the chance of either an acetone enol or 4-hydroxy-4-methyl-2-pentanone
enol forming is 50%, so we would expect at least half the total acetone (that reacts) to be our desired product, phorone.
Looking at a pic I drew of the dehydrated version of 4-hydroxy-4-methyl-2-pentanone and looking at some data about the
equilibrium formation constants of acetone enols, I would expect resonance effects to increase the probability of the good enol
forming.
The patent was quite vague about all of this. While I am sure this may be a cheap way, it is probably too time consuming for
industrial use. Since we independent experimenters dont have to worry about a bottom line for profit we can wait a bit. A
series of refluxing and sitting steps might improve yields over time. Once one was done refluxing they could distill of some of
the excess acetone and have only the phorone/crap/acid mix left. This would not require a complete isolation and purification
of phorone, and it would limit the amount of acetone to reduce AP formation.
Perhaps nbk had it right when he left his mix set around for weeks, although I highly doubt the formation of phorone would be
of much use without any heating. I cant really say how long one should leave the mix sit around, but I bet it could take
awhile. One could judge the rate of reaction by distilling off the acetone and measuring the amount left. It may not even be
necessary to reflux and wait, just refluxing for several hours should continually end up with the formation of phorone and
waste products.
Hopefully I can find that journal tomorrow and some issues can be explained. The key to this reaction would appear to be
phorone production. I have read a little about aldol condensations just now and I have been led to believe only base is used
to accomplish such things. It could be that the patent uses acid and acetone in a one pot kind of mix so they dont have to
bother purifying anything and can just add in the peroxide. Since they never actually stipulate how much time elapses between
the phorone reaction and the addition of peroxide, we must experiment. My vote is the industrial process lets its vats sit
around for a week or two, and so must we.
Enough of my ramblings who would like to correct some of my facts? It could be that a different mechanism is taking place
other that aldol condensations and a,b-unsat products (it sure looks like it though).
Following up on my previous post:
The crystals which i had in my beaker disappeared either back into the solution or into the air. I then heated my mixture until
it had boiled down to 1/10 of original volume. No crystals precipitated out of the solution. I let the solution cool. I checked
back a day later still nothing so i dumped it. I now have about 10 mls of HCl and acetone sitting in a test tube. It has been
sitting for about 2 days, it looks like urine. Should i boil the mixture to try to get out the phorone(it's a solid right)or let it sit?

I would keep on boiling the mix until you are left with a nice oil. The remaining acetone should come off with little effort
leaving the liquid phorone if that's what you have. Let that cool and if you get crystals that may be the stuff. I gather the stuff
is soluable in acetone but not in water.
On a related note I have my acetone and acid gently refluxing right now. I noticed in the patent that they use 6 moles of
acetone per 1 mole of hydrochloric acid, I decided to go with a 1:1 mole ratio because I think I may lose a little acid along the
way. I am not sure (it being in German) but on the page before the formulas it loos like they use 1:1:2 of acetone to
hydrochloric acid to hydrogen peroxide. Has anybody calculated any stoichiometry for this reaction?

stoichiometry, the only thing high school chem is good for.I got roughly 10moles HCl to 6moles Acetone but im quite tired so
dont trust me(Casualties show last night)

Oh no, bad news :( The journal is not at my library, but shipped off to the remote storage place unaccessable to me. I have
filed a request to have the article shipped to me, let us hope it arrives in a timely manner. It's a good thing I checked before
I went.
Apparently (all of a sudden) just because your not a student, you can't get anything. My remote access to the journal archive
was cut (suddenly I may add). The online journal request did accept my submission to have the journal sent to me, so maybe
I can slip through the cracks a bit longer. They want a "donation" to remain a patron. Cheap bastards...
One ray of hope, I checked on the other reference in Merck, the one for Zhurnal Obshchei Khimii (Zh. Obshch. Khim.) 22, 632
(1952). I thought I remembered some of those had English translations, well I was right. My library dosen't have back to
1952, but I will try to request it from elsewhere. The problem I have now is whether the English version is called "The Journal
of general chemistry of the U.S.S.R. in English translation" or "Russian Journal of General Chemistry (English Translation)."
They sound close enough, and how many can their be? :)
I also have a line on the other reference, in Zhurnal Prikladnoi Khimii 34, 1628 (1961) which I think might be "Russian Journal
of Applied Chemistry (English Translation)."
Oh, and I almost missed the ref for Zeitschrift fuer Naturforschung 33B, 454 (1978) which sounds like a German one. I gather
that is a "B" edition for chemical sciences.
[ December 12, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: megalomania ]

Well, my experiment has been refluxing for a total of 6 hours now counting yesterday and today. After only 45 minutes
yesterday my solution turned a nice urine yellow. After about 1:30 hours today the solution turned orange, and after 3 hours it
became a slight red, now it is a dark wine red. I can see this indicates the progress of some reaction, but I cant say what
chemical is being made. If only I had a HPLC or perhaps a mass spec :)
I believe this is the same color of solution that you referred to nbk, after letting your mix sit around for a few weeks? I did
figure out one of the byproducts of this reaction is mesityl oxide, which is what I referred to the first condensation product for
lack of a better name. This stuff will boil at 130 oC and remains as a liquid under ordinary conditions. This is just
something to keep in mind if distilling the reaction mix. It is a colorless honey smelling liquid according to Merck.
Another possible byproduct is mesitylene which boils at 164.7 oC. I am quite surprised to find out an aromatic
molecule can be made so easily, although I dont think the conditions of refluxed acetone with HCl are quite right to make too
much. A little check of Organic Synthesis shows they have just such a reaction using sulfuric acid and acetone kept cold, rather
like the conditions described by IPN earlier in the thread.
I also found it may be a bad idea to neutralize the HCl with a base if trying to isolate it as it can cyclize into a compound
called iso-phorone.
I found another reference in Organic Synthesis concerning the preparation of mesityl oxide. There was a footnote about using
HCl as one of the condensing; it said it was quite bad as considerable quantities of phorone will result. Looking over the
procedure they use gently refluxing diacetone alcohol with a little iodine. By modifying this procedure with acetone and HCl as
the footnote suggests, one should get a rather large amount of phorone. It would appear my reflux track is right on the
money. The likely byproducts would be diacetone alcohol, mesityl oxide, and unreacted acetone.
Ahh, there it is the bad news looking up the synthesis of diacetone alcohol I see it required between 96-120 hours to convert
80% of the acetone! Ahh jeez, I cant afford to waste that much water in my condenser :) A footnote mentions a 70% yield can
be obtained at 40-50 hours, thats a little better. I assume the conversion of diacetone alcohol to phorone proceeds under
much the same time frame, with the diacetone being reacted about as fast as it is made. I hypothesized this would take a
very long time to react I guess I was right.
FadeToBlackened December 13th, 2002, 06:11 PM

I've not been following this thread much but I think I've seen "diacetone alcohol" as an ingredient in an aerosol can of
antkiller. Raid possibly. I can't remember. It may be worth looking into though (?)

hm....that sounds like it may be pentan-3-one but i am guessing :)
Methinks mega has mesitylene.
Syanide December 13th, 2002, 09:58 PM

I told my friend about this thread and he has decided to synthesize some DPPP today. He will use the Method first proposed
by BrAiNFeVeR

Helvetica">that's why the most common thought is to first prepare phorone, then dissolve that in HCl solution, and then add
the peroxide.<hr /></blockquote>I will post the results and hopefully
pictures when the process is completed. :D
nbk2000 December 13th, 2002, 10:05 PM

Yes, Mega, that is the same color progression as I got from letting it sit for weeks (months).
Continuous reflux would do the same thing much quicker but, if you've got the patience, you could always just let a 5 gallon
bucket of it sit in a back corner for a few months to let it react on its own time, no reflux hassle needed.

For those of us who have reflux equipment it works fine, for those of us who do not heating this stuff would be a bit more
complicated. I got out some books yesterday and brushed up on aldol condensations and here is what I came up with:
The formation of diacetone alcohol will proceed without heat, achieving an equilibrium mix of between 2% and 5%, meaning
that by letting it sit you can end up with that much. Heating will increase the rate of the reaction considerably, but heat is
necessary to achieve the dehydration step where the double bond is formed. Once that is done the mesityl oxide that forms
(dehydrated diacetone alcohol) is stuck and cannot go back. In essence the equilibrium will shift to product over time. I have
read that the conditions required to dehydrate the molecule is only slightly more vigorous than the aldol condensation to begin
with. The presence of the carbonyl stabilizes the hydroxyl as it is stripped away, not that this theory is important. Personally, I
would not expect any dehydration to happen at room temp, but it is not altogether unreasonable to expect that after many
weeks or months that some would form.
From mesityl oxide we are quite likely to get phorone as the principal product. When a molecule of mesityl oxide forms it is
more than likely to be surrounded by acetone molecules when it becomes its enol form than an acetone enol is to find a
mesityl oxide. The equilibrium (initially anyway) favors the formation of phorone. A second factor is steric crowding. Ketones
have a lower formation constant vs. aldehydes of their enols because of the crowded neighbors. An acetone enol going after
the very crowded mesityl oxide carbonyl is less likely to happen. A mesityl oxide enol can more easily attack an acetone
carbonyl.
In time we would get a very high conversion of acetone to mesityl oxide. It is reasonable to assume that the mesityl oxide
forms phorone at about the same rate that mesityl oxide is formed from acetone. These factors serve to limit the amount of
mesityl oxide that can react with other things, and thus make the formation of other mixed aldol condensation products, or
even mesitylene, a very minor occurrence.
All of this leads to justification of the formation of large amounts of phorone from the reaction conditions I am currently
running in my lab. Speaking of which I electrocuted myself an hour ago when beginning todays refluxing. I didnt even realize
it until a few minutes in. My top condenser hose was not affixed properly and after about 30 minutes in it started to leak. I left
the experiment to its own devices for 45 minutes. When I went to check on it there was water all over my electric heating
mantle an about 0.5 cm of standing water on my bench. I started to sop it up and a very strange tingling feeling shot
through my fingers every time I pressed down on the sponge. You think I would have stopped now my fingers feel quite
funny after being shocked for upwards of 5 minutes as I cleaned the water up. It felt rather like my fingers fell asleep; you
know that pins and needles feeling, so thats what I thought it was. It only happened when I pressed my fingers down, then I
did a test press on a dry spot and no pain. I was standing in a puddle of water too. I am alive and well, with a now wire
wrapped condenser hose.

STRANGE NEWS !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
A few weeks ago I mixed 1part acetone with 1 part 30%HCL I did the glass in a hot waterbath at about 60C for about 1 hour, it
had a urine color but a little darker.
After that hour I let the mixture cool to room temperature and added some Sodium Bi Carbonate straight to the Aceton/HCL,
and fillterd out the crystalls, and did this a few times untill no more crystalls were formed, the crystalls should be Phorone but
they don't melt at 30C, so I don't what it is.
I disolved a very small amount in 30%H202 and nothing happend, I lay the mixture away for a few weeks and took a look
avery week, nothing happend ofcourse.
But, today I looked and their were very big cristals !

The water in the 30%H2O2 evaporated but at this time it is still a bit wet, I also tryed to ignite 2 crystalls but they were not
really burning I guess but it did something, more like "SNAP" if they are dry I will test it again !
These crystalls are bigger than sugar <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> and have no color !
the pictures of the Phorone and crystalls will be online within a day !!

I have my pictures ready from my experiment the past few days. Each photo represents the reaction at later stages and clearly
shows the color progression.
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/images/phorone_1hr.jpg" target="_blank">After 1 hour, a light yellow color.</a>

<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/images/phorone_4hr.jpg" target="_blank">After 4 hours, a light red-orange.</a>
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/images/phorone_12hr.jpg" target="_blank">After 12 hours, a dark blood red.</a>

Yep, that's the same exact color progression as my experiment.
Now, if the reaction is self limiting, without heat, to ~2%, what color would that be? Because if 2% is just light yellow, and fully
reacted is motor oil, then how did I get to that stage without any reflux?
Bicarb + HCl = Table salt.
Good thing the Forum server info is distributed amongst staff, lest we have lost our illustrious leader in the line of duty and
been up shit creek without a password. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ December 14, 2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

Most likely the presence of HCl has a considerable catalytic effect in the reaction. Since the dehydration requires almost the
same conditions as the aldol formation does, having the reaction happen at room temp is not a far stretch. The rate of
reaction would be patheticially slow though, evidenced by the fact it takes months to achieve at room temp what I got in 12
hours. Other things like sunlight could play a role as well.
Who wants to be the first to add some of their HCl to their bottle of acetone and sit it out? Report back here on Valentines day
maybe? I know this dosn't sound like a fun experiment, most will probably forget. I'll seal up a flask tomorrow and keep it
under my pillow...
My fingers still hurt.

I figured it was an acid catalyzed reaction. My acetone was saturated with HCl gas, so it would have continued reacting with the
absorbed acid as the acetone content was changed to phorone.
The one thing I think simple Mix&Wait would have over heating would be mass quantities. It'd be very simple to mix a 55
gallon drum of acetone with acid and let it sit in the backyard for a few months.
Try doing a reflux on a drums worth. :p
Could have been worse, you could have ended up like some scientists who've fallen on the battlefield of discovery, clutching a
test tube in one hand, a retort in the other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
megalomania December 16th, 2002, 12:17 AM

Actually I could run a reflux on a drum quantity of acetone because I have a pair of gigantic condensers I have never used
because they are too damn big. Of course I wasted enough water refluxing 74 mL :p
Not that anyone would want to make such large quantities, that goes beyond personal experimentation.

Unless it turns out DPPP actually IS as simple and powerful as claimed
Is so, why fuck around with RDX with all the acids and fumes when you could use cheap solvents and acid, let sit a few months,
add gallons of pool peroxide, and get kilos upon kilos of DPPP that has a detonation velocity as high as RDX?
But, life can never be that generous, so there's got to be something wrong with it.

Here you can see the weird crystalls that have been formed out of phoron with H2O2
<a href="http://apanshock.tripod.com/Temp.htm" target="_blank">http://apanshock.tripod.com/Temp.htm</a>

Have any plans on testing them? Impact, fire, etc?
Those are definately some big crystals. They look rhombic, rather than needle/cubic like AP usually is.

I did some tests but it does not really burn, it is hard to test, because they "SNAP" away.
I will wrap them in some aluminiumfoil so that they can not jump away.

Are you sure the crystals are totally dry? If not, it may be little steam explosions from trapped water causing the "jumping".
Also, hammer whacks are good to to keep them from jumping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I just did several test but this stuff is worthless !
They only dance when you light them with fire, they don't melt, they don't do anything, they give some smoke and you can
smell someting but it is not DPPP :( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Microtek December 16th, 2002, 10:37 AM

Try these tests:
- Wrap one or two of those large crystals in Al foil and heat in open flame ( protect yourself ).
- Wrap in foil and do a hammer test.
- Grind ( carefully ) and use as base charge in a detonator, place this detonator against a witness plate such as a thick wooden
board and mark the length of the detonator on the plate. Initiate the primary explosive ( I suggest HMTD ), recover the plate
and see how far down the pipe the detonation propagated.
IPN December 16th, 2002, 11:10 AM

In the picture the crystals look very wet. Do you have or have you access to a vacuum dessicator. With that it would be easy to
drive off the water.
DarkAngel December 16th, 2002, 12:17 PM

Shockwave those crystals look like Sodium (Bi) Carbonate.
Try to pour some HCl on them to find it out.

Crystalls are very dry, the pics were taken about 2 days ago when they were still wet.
My sodium bi carbonate does not look like this, does your sodium bi carbonate looks like sugar?
These crystalls are totally colorless.

The picture shows all of crystalls, as you can see it is not enough to test for a detonation with a primary.
I still have lot's of that some kind of phoron so I can make much more of these crystalls

Small update at my site
<a href="http://apanshock.tripod.com/phoron_dppp.htm" target="_blank">http://apanshock.tripod.com/phoron_dppp.htm</

a>

Shockwave: It's easily enough. In fact one tenth of what you have would be enough. I'm not talking about inserting a
detonator into a container packed with your crystals. Here is what I suggest:
- First obtain an Al or copper pipe with an internal diameter of 3-4 mm.
- Cut off a length of 3 cm or more and seal one end with epoxy.
- Pack the lower 2 cm of the pipe with ground up 'mystery crystals'.
- Pack the upper cm with HMTD or, if you have it, 0.5 cm rdx and 0.5 cm HMTD.
- Add a little silver acetylide, mercury fulminate or lead styphnate to aid DDT, and attach a fuse.
- place the pipe on a plate that is strong enough that it won't be destroyed by the blast but soft enough that it will be dented (
I suggest thick wood ).
- Mark on the board where the beginning and end of the pipe is, and initiate the device.
If the crystals are reasonably sensitive ( more so than TNT ) they will detonate from this treatment as direct contact between
initiating and recieving explosives make detonation transfer much more effective ( recall my posts on caseless detonators ). If
the crystals detonate, the plate will be dented corresponding to the entire length of the pipe and if they don't, only the section
of the plate directly under the initiating explosive will be dented.
As for the amount of crystals needed, let's assume that you can press them to a density of 1.5 g/cc ( as good as industrially
pressed RDX ) and you use a pipe 3 cm long with an internal diameter of 3 mm.
You press the crystals into the lower 2 cm which means you need
0.15*0.15*pi*2.0 = 0.141 cc at density 1.5 = 0.212 grams.
knowledgehungry December 23rd, 2002, 10:56 AM

I would think that maybe we should test the process by using pure Phorone(preferrably bought to make sure of purity)
30%H2O2 and: H2SO4 in one batch, HCl in one batch, Acetic acid in one batch and Acetone + H2O2+HCl as the control batch.
anyone have access to phorone???
Ill get around to doin this eventually but not for another month at least.
Donutty December 26th, 2002, 05:37 PM
Aw.. this poor topic has been abandonned! Ive got a sample vial of a opaque, dark red, oily geranium-smelling liquid waiting
to be used, now all I need is the time!
For such a promising development it seems a shame to leave it like this!
frogfot December 28th, 2002, 09:42 AM

As several people alredy said, first we must develop a way to make phorone. Have anybody actually made it?
Recently i boiled 50 ml acetone + 50 ml 30% HCl in water bath under reflux for 1 hour. Solution got yellow after some minute
and then slowly crowled to dark red/brown.
I added 100 ml water and neutralized it with solid sodium carbonate untill it became nearly colourless. Under whole
neutralization there formed small ammount of red/brown oil on top, which went over to yellow color when it was neutral.
There were no precepitate.
So, should phorone be that oil? (as i remember it was a solid) Or does it need to be extracted from the oil?
And i just thoat about discussed "patent" on DPPP, if phorone yelds are very small at room temp, then just pouring acid in
acetone and then directly mixing with H2O2 would yeld only AP.
[ December 28, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: frogfot ]

Sometimes chemicals form oils, instead of crystals, requiring you to seed it, or freeze it, to get it to crystalize properly.
Indeed, without having KNOWN phorone, you can't be sure that you're not producing AP instead.
frogfot December 30th, 2002, 09:09 AM

Then its possible that phorone is maby dissolved in acetone to some part.
Collected above named oil, got about 0,6 ml. It got "mixed" smell, so i evaporated it in room temp and funny part was that it
started to smell like fir-tree <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> If i remember correct, some of self-
condensation products of acetone should smell like fir-tree... Does phorone smell like that too?
Will longer reflux time give more oil?
IPN December 30th, 2002, 10:48 AM

It might give more of that oil, but there is a chance that phorone forms trough the reaction in so small amounts that making
decent amounts of it you would need many gallons of acetone and HCl to make noticeable amounts of phorone.

I am given to understand that phorone is quite soluable in acetone and other common organic solvents. You will have to distill
the solvents off to get crystalline phorone.

Is phorone heat stable? Or would it decompose, radicalize, polymerize, or some other way get fucked up?
IPN December 31st, 2002, 04:38 AM

Helvetica"> The patent don`t say heat at this time and the patent don`t say
some product (phoron) should precipitate from the solution at this time.
If you heat or not, the content of AP are always present at end of the synthesis. On the contrary, if you heat to much or to
long, the reaction fails.
<hr /></blockquote>I dont know if this means phorone would
decompose on heating but it implies to something like that.
Al Koholic January 1st, 2003, 05:55 PM

Or since we are just dealing with acetone instead of distilling of the solvent just let it evaporate :-)
Run a current of air over the evaporation dish to speed things up.
knowledgehungry January 2nd, 2003, 08:22 PM

Yeah but we have the acid too.
IPN January 9th, 2003, 09:11 AM

If phorone melts at 27C and boils at 198C it should not decompose
(im not sure. its just a guess)
BASF January 9th, 2003, 06:01 PM

<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=179&page=5" target="_blank">http://
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=179&page=5</a>
i tried peroxidation of pure phorone(see report on sciencemadness), but it seems to be tricky as phorone can not be dissolved
in polar solvents with only one exception: glacial acetic acid.
I still possess several grams of 97% phorone from sigma-aldrich <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , i am
looking for other ways to peroxidize phorone.
As i see that lots of points already have been discussed in sciencemadness, I would also advocate to interchange more
information between the forums, less having the discussion going in circles.
The thread on sciencemadness has grown damn big, but ill soon try to pick the most important points out of it for a new
thread on the Mackowiak-patent.
Greets to all being curious
ALENGOSVIG1 January 9th, 2003, 08:49 PM

Mabe the reason they're "DDDP" is sublimating fast and burns slower than regular AP is becuase it's the dicycloacetone
peroxide isomer.
dicyclo AP burns slow. A 1/2" diameter 1.5" copper tube plugged at one end pressed with dicyclo AP made at 40 celsius just
shoots a fireball out the end!
Just a theory though. :)
[ January 09, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
knowledgehungry January 9th, 2003, 09:29 PM

I agree with alengosvig1. Dppp might have a slower burn rate, (not detonation speed)but it is supposedly non-volatile. If
peroxidation of pure phorone has proven so difficult the i doubt that the patent method would have success.
BASF January 9th, 2003, 11:13 PM

i also made a specific experiment on sublimation, but my "DPPP" was made below 5C, under these conditions mainly tricyclic
acetone peroxide should form.
But it still exhibited a sublimation rate of about 49% per two weeks at 21C as opposed to TCAP which had a rate of about
26% per two weeks.
<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=397" target="_blank">http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/

viewthread.php?tid=397</a>
Does anyone know what the german patent office exactly examines to grant a patent?
I know at least that european offices want to have evidence on the invention really working, not just evidence wether it is
new(like the US patent office also grants patents to inventors of perpetua mobile).
This is what still keeps me being confident about this compound.
Anthony January 10th, 2003, 06:48 AM

At least in the UK patent offices, all the patent officer has to do is to visualise your idea working with current knowledge and
understanding. They certainly don't come to your lab and watch you create and test your invention.
I think we should remind ourselves that an awful lot of shite gets patented and there is a good reason that around 98% of
patents never make their owners any money...
It seems that DPPP was originally cited as a high performance, easy to make replacement for AP/HMTD. For that much it has
certainly failed due to the difficulty of it's synthesis, assuming that it can be synthesised at all.
Therefore, I think it's being continued as a curiosity only, which would explain why it is getting more attention at
ScienceMadness than here. We like our bangs and they like their numbers :)
BASF January 10th, 2003, 09:13 AM

3D-Structure of the molecule
<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=179&pid=2255" target="_blank">http://
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=179&pid=2255</a>
Chemsketch predicts a density of about 1.3g/ccm.
vulture January 10th, 2003, 10:34 AM

I recognize that....(I made it duh).
I noticed that Mega posted a structure also, but this was assymetric instead of this symmetric one.
I'm wondering what would be favorable?
If it's assymetric it should polarize light no?
Anyone got a refractometer?
nbk2000 January 10th, 2003, 08:32 PM

The US patent office SPECIFICALLY forbids any kind of "Perpetual Motion" patents. It also requires that the patenter be
prepared to defend the validity of their patent application by presenting the device for examination by patent inspectors if
there's any issue with the feasibility of the device.
And, I think, the reason 98% of patents don't make money is because:
A) The item is a crappy idea from the start. Though who'd have ever guessed that the talking bass fish plaque would be such
a hit. :rolleyes:
B) The patent owner doesn't have the money to market the device sufficiently to make it profitable.
C) They get tied up in court over who owns the idea with someone else who may be suing simply to prevent the device from
reaching market. Big corporations do this all the time to suppress any competition.
Anyways, unless someone here has definitively MADE phorone, this topic is closed as it's a dead end without phorone. If
anyone HAS made phorone, and has a REPRODUCIBLE synth process to back it up, you can start a new topic to post it.
[ January 10, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
zeocrash June 8th, 2003, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by BASF
i tried peroxidation of pure phorone(see report on sciencemadness), but it seems to be tricky as phorone can not be dissolved
in polar solvents with only one exception: glacial acetic acid.
I still possess several grams of 97% phorone from sigma-aldrich <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , i am
looking for other ways to peroxidize phorone.
i heard you can peroxidise things using sodium carbonate peroxide, contained in oxiclean tablets, if anyone has any
information on using this, has made AP or HMTD using this method. i'd love to hear it so i dont have to completely wing it.
if otherwise i'm just going to try replacing 30%H2O2 with 30% sodium carbonate peroxide solution, ill tell you how it goes.
vulture June 8th, 2003, 03:54 PM

IIRC, philou made on post on sciencemadness about the production of phorone which said the condensation reaction should
be performed as quickly as possible, because letting it sit would result in higher, useless, condensation products.
yt2095 June 18th, 2003, 01:10 PM

IPN & NBK,
i have tried making phorone with the Acetone and HCL(aq)
both Analytical grade, and have not seen this yellow to red transition? in fact there was no color change at all?
the HCL was 70% and the acetone was 99.98 pure on assay readup
both under 4 months old and had been stored in the correct manour.
i`m intruiged as what causes this coloration. before i was a "newbie" on here i`de done extensive reading throughout this site
and should have shares in GOOGLE :)
during this time i set up the acetone and hcl, next day no color change? so i set up 2 more similar.one has heat (when i
remember to do it, the other is under constant UV exposer, still no color change?
i realise as a "newbie" it`s probably not best to ASK questions this early on, but i`m left wondering if it`s a flaw in my batch of
chems or impurities in yours?
all the above 3 ongoing experiments are at standard RTP.

if there`s any change in state after it`s already 2 weeks, you`ll be the second to know :)

70% HCl? :confused:
zeocrash June 18th, 2003, 04:02 PM

yeah the highest stable conc of HCl, is about 40%, i have some 36% and that fumes like a motherfucker
yt2095 June 18th, 2003, 04:29 PM

tell me about it!
this stuff is well nasty, that`s why i posted it`s shelf life and wondered wether or not that maybe a factor?
i have no "home lab kit" that`ll give me the conc as it was when 1`st used in my exeriments. but i shouldn`t imagine that it
was too far off the 70% mark as labled in 4 months, as for fumes :) :) :)
you`de think the air was composed of pure ammonia gas!
it has an 12 month shelf life, so i would guess that (yes guess and very unscientific of me) that it would change a significant
degree after that time (they allow a margin of error).
so i have no real reason to beleive that after 4 month that this should have degraded much below the 70% mark? maybe
someone knows more about it p`haps?
but my comment was mainly regarding the production of Phorone and from there the production of "new" type of new
compound mentioned in the 1`st post.
all i can say is that i`ve been most unsuccesful in even producing the color change, but i have yet to try the full synth of this
compound. i guess i kinda got hung up on this color change.
i constantly remind myself that`s there`s no such thing as a FAILED experiment,,, only more data :)
knowledgehungry June 18th, 2003, 06:03 PM

you`de think the air was composed of pure ammonia gas! Um HCl is hydrogen chloride ammonia is NH3.
ALENGOSVIG1 June 18th, 2003, 06:08 PM

Im sure he's well aware of that. He was referring to how much fumes are produced when HCl is left around an open container
of NH3.
frogfot June 18th, 2003, 06:10 PM

Is it even possible to have a liquid 70% HCl at room temp.. anyway.. the color change will occur with heat present, but this
method suck anyway. Phorone will form as traces and it will condence further to larger products in presence of acid.
Oh, and since this topic came up again.. i have produced mesityl oxide and if you look at it's structure, it's nearly similar to
phorone. I used soxhlet extractor and Ba(OH)2 as catalyst. I made an attempt of peroxidation with equal ammount of 30%
H2O2 and few drops of HCl (+ MeOH). This reacted about 12h or something.. and after, water was added, a white crystalline
product were formed after couple of minutes, which melted in contact with flame. A VERY reliable source said that this is an
epoxide of mesityl oxide. The epoxide group is connected instead of double bond in mesityl oxide..
My guess is that phorone will undertake same reaction with H2O2.. so, some other way of peroxidation should be found..

yt2095, your post is very confusing. Could you please clarify.
Are you sure you arent confusing HNO3 with HCl? Because with 70% HCl you should get immediate results and 70% HNO3 is a
usual concentration which fumes alot too.
If it's really 70% then it won't be for long, because then the botlle has got to be enourmously pressurized.
yt2095 June 19th, 2003, 08:14 AM

appologies to all, my dummy friend misread the box the ampuoles came in (i got him to photocopy the doc that came with
the glass vials and read it my self)
the ampuoles when mixed with distiled water make a 2M solutuion at 72.92g per litre
grams not percent!
ya just can`t get the staff these days!
i`m assuming that these vials are to broken in a suitable vesel and then water added (but that seems rather dangerous as it
acid to water and not other way round. so how yer suposed to empty all the contents into 1L of water without personal risk
beats me, i just shatered the vial in a beaker and used the stuff neat. still no color change tho?
i didn`t smell like nitric at least not the nitric i make or have used in the past.
i think i`ll start again but make my own HCL and do as NBK sugested and just bubble it through the acetone at least then i
know exactly what i`m using and don`t have to rely on anyone else to make mistakes for me (i`m quite capable of doin that
on my own, without help) :)
again, accept my appologies and ignore the above few posts i wrote, they were in error
"if you need something doing right, do it yourself!"

2M is already fairly diluted and should pose no problems diluting it further. However, I wouldn't dilute it any further, because
2M is already pretty weak. 2M is the kind of thing you find in school labs, even complete idiots would have to go through
considerable effort to hurt themselves with that.
yt2095 June 20th, 2003, 09:06 AM

i probably worded it badly
these Ampoules when added to 1 litre of water make a 2M solution, there are 6 in a box, when all 6 are used it will make the
72.92g per litre
i was given 1 vial, and i used it undiluted to try make 1`stly the phorone then the DDDP.
(not got to the DDDP part yet, i`m still waiting for the color change)
the only noticable effect i have so far is the white frosting effect at the top of 2 of the test tubes, the one i heat (when i
remember to) and one i just leave in the room. the other in Cuvvet under UV has no frosting.
appologies if i was a little vague.

What do you mean by frosting exactly?
BTW, UV light is not going to help, as this is not a halogenation with elemental Cl2, merely an acid catalyzed condensation
reaction.
yt2095 June 20th, 2003, 01:24 PM

vulture,
the "frosting effect" is like just that.
it will come off with a light touch of fingers, it`s purely a superficial surface effect on the glass.
the tube itself remains unaffected, (i`m using soda glass tubes, tho i think that will have no significance to the reaction)
it`s a white frosting effect at the top of both tubes, i hesitate to use the words "a mist like powder" in case someone decides
to jump down my throat and tell me that it`s not a powder at all it`s a "whatever"!
i have only certain frames of reference in which to explain an effect, imagine frosted glass, that goes clear when you run your
finger along it.
i`ll PH test it, not now tho, maybe tomorow. the fineness of this surface material, makes me think that it is some sort of
condensation forming on exposure to air since it`s not all up the inside of the tube, only about 1cm from the rim, inside and
out.
i considered CO2 or tobbaco deposits reacting with HCL vapor, i can`t see how C)2 would cause a reaction as both would be
acidic anyway, tobaco maybe???
adjacent chems are all stoppered AND the same effect happens with homemade HCL(aq) if left long enough in a test tube. i
know this because i gathered and crushed some iron ore and let is sit in an unstopered test tube for about a week, same
effect?
so i`m fairly sure that it is quite strong HCL(aq) that i`m using in this Phorone then ultimately the DDDP trial.
at a loss here as to why i`ts not working re: color change?

Are you sure you are not just simply seeing HCl vapor rising from the testtube.
The only thing I could think of is NH4Cl deposition but that seems odd since there is no ammonia in the air I assume.
Glass is normally not attacked by HCl.
I sincerely hope you didn't mistake HF for HCl! But that seems rather impossible, as I don't think you would still be here
typing replies then...:eek:
The color change is easily noticeable after an hour at 40C using 37% HCl.
yt2095 June 21st, 2003, 06:37 AM

Vulture, your an absolute genius!
Ammonium chloride... you got me thinking along those lines of possible air contaminants.
Ammonia, but i have no Ammonia???
But i DO have 3 cats! and the litter tray does need changing more often than it gets changed, and the weather here of late
has been less than comfortable because of the heat.
the "frosting" is Chloride of cat piss! :)
who`de have thought it eh :)
nice work.
rooster June 21st, 2003, 08:32 AM

Humans, and probably cats also, do not produce NH3 directly, as it is poisonous to them. Instead they convert it to urea. The
only solution i can see is that some decomposition product of the cat piss is ammonia. Maybe urea is converted to ammonia?
yt2095 June 21st, 2003, 09:17 AM

Rooster,
your 1`st assertion is quite correct.
Urea does indeed breakdown to NH3 then almost imidieatly to NH4(aq).

but you know as well as i that even the (aq) version sticks like hell! :(
and so does this room when the litter tray gets overlooked and the weathers hot.
common toilet bleach in a watch glass or my chlorate manufacturing usualy counters this, the price you pay for for having a
wife that will only enter the Lab, with writen permission or to bring me another beer :) (just kidding)
but Vulture was quite right, i never even considered the ambient ammonia untill he suggested it.
Hmmm... a thought just occured to me, perhaps if i poured dilute niric acid in the litter tray and let it dry with some fuel oil...
:)
fayll July 22nd, 2003, 03:59 PM

This is the original German patent for DPPP in german language :
DPPP01 (http://vanphai.free.fr/DPPP/DPPP01.pdf)
--------------------
bloodbob October 18th, 2003, 05:33 AM

Assuming the phoron density is less then water then the best way to make the phoron is with dean-stark condensor ( I'm
assuming we are doing condensation reactions ) .
nitric63 October 19th, 2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by THErAPIST
oh... an update since i had the idea. i put 90 mL of 6% peroxide into a mason jar and then i added the 5 heaping teaspoons
of hex along with 2 heaping teaspoons of NH4NO3 and another 45 mL of 30% H2SO4. when i added the sulfuric the whole
thing turned yellow like orange juice and then got really really cloudy, so i let it set there for a few minutes. within about 10
minutes i had some yellow fluffy precipitate on the bottom and top of the liquid, so i let it sit there another 3 hours. then I
went and filtered and washed the stuff. the stuff was yellow to start with but the more i ran water thrue it the more white it got.
then when i added the 10% sodium bicarb it got pretty much pure white. so i dried it and all and then went and pressed 2
grams (i made 2 batches) into a plastic drinking straw. I fused it and then took it and an acorn squash out into the woods. i
stabbed a hole in the squash with a pencil when i was on the way there. when i got there i put the extremely large blasting cap
inside the hole, lit the fuse and trotted off about 100 feet. when it went off it didnt make much noise at all but ill be damned if
the squash didnt get obliterated. the biggest piece i found was about as big as a marble, and not ona those big marbles
either. not to mention the piece was some 70 feet away. the dirt where it had been sitting was pretty messed up too. in my
opinion it was more powerful than HMTD but i dont know how to conduct many tests to prove this. im gonna make a gram
charge of both and set them on the same thing to test bristance and such sometime soon though. the crystals seem to be
slightly smaller than those of HMTD also. anyone care to give me some ideas on how to test the stuff? or maybe make a
batch yourself and test it? whatever. just makin an update. ill get the pics up when i can. cant find my fire wire <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Perhaps along with some HMTD there was hexamine dinitrate formed. Perhaps you should try this again but leave out the
xNO3 and see what happens.
The point of posting this was my small response about the hexamine dinitrate which I had accidentally put inside the quotes.
blindreeper October 19th, 2003, 01:36 AM

nitric63, may I ask what was the point of posting that?
me234 October 20th, 2003, 10:54 AM

I have just read through all 3 pages of this thread and noticed that so far no-one has mentioned trying the DPPP with H2SO4.
Many moons ago I was making a small batch of AP, approx. 5ml's worth, and for a change I added the acid to the acetone
first, I think I might have read somewhere that this was a better method for making AP (Sadly, I suspect a kewl site at play
here). The acid I used however was concentrated H2SO4, and after a few seconds I had an ever darking solution the same
colour as mega's was after an hour, I was just wondering why not try refluxing using sulphuric acid, it does have the added
effect of dehydration, I just thought this might be nice as mega's synth of phorone stated that a dehydrated product was
neccesary. However I am a newbie and I may be well off the mark, so I hope the idea was useful.
My apologies, Boob Raider also mentions having used H2SO4 as his acid. Boob Raider, what strength sulphuric did you use?
McGyver October 20th, 2003, 08:23 PM

Just an idea, how about contacting the guys behind the patent "I was woundering..." :D
T_Pyro November 1st, 2003, 01:20 AM

On a number of occasions while making some AP, I had noticed that the acetone started turning yellow when it came into
contact with conc. H2SO4. I was clueless as to what the compound was, until I came across this thread.
Well, I took about 20 ml of acetone and 20ml of 98% H2SO4. In about 1hr 30 mins, a dark reddish brown viscous, oily liquid
had formed, which was lighter than water. Also, this compound had a very strong sweet kind of smell of acetone, but far
stronger than acetone itself. This substance (phorone?) was cooled to 0*C, and 200ml H2O2 (at ~4*C) was added slowly,
while stirring continuously. The mixture was left aside for 96 hours at room temperature, at the end of which I noticed yellow
fluffy crystals on the sides of the beaker, and floating on top of the liquid. These crystals deflagrated when lit, giving out
flame "tongues" about 3cm long. The fierce "whump!" that accompanies the deflagration of unconfined AP was missing. I
haven't tested the compound under confinement yet.
For the conversion of acetone to phorone, does the Cl- ion of HCl play a part too, or is it just the H+ ion which brings about the
polymeristaion? I've read through the previous posts on this forum, as well as the "other" forum, but I was unable to come to
an unambiguous answer. None of my organic chem books deal with phorone or the polymerisation of ketones, either!
me234 November 27th, 2003, 12:58 AM

Has no-one here been able to buy phorone? a place near me sells iso-phorone (their name) for a few dollars a kilo, you guys
think this might work ok for the synth? is there anything wildly different about the iso- form that might screw things up majorly
if I try this?
PyroNitrate November 27th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Depends on purity.... There could be other ingredients inside it which could totally mess up the experiment, or even harm you.
Sorry didnt see your end statment, Check the percentage, if it has other ingredients, you should probley extract the phor from
the other ingredients.
knowledgehungry November 28th, 2003, 06:54 PM

Umm, isophorone would be a different isomer of phorone, not a mixture of different chemicals.
T_Pyro November 29th, 2003, 08:00 PM

Usually, the prefix "iso-" means the presence of a (CH3)2 group, or 1,1-dimethyl group. But how this figures in the structure of
phorone, I have no clue whatsoever!
me234 December 3rd, 2003, 01:28 AM

the place I'm going to get it from generally has pretty good stuff, if it's not 100% or there abouts they'll tell me, I'll post % if I
try it any time soon, nobody have more info?, I know it'll be a different stucture, I'm just wondering if it might not still work
somehow. Anyway
Desmikes December 4th, 2003, 01:57 AM

Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that someone did purchase PURE phorone but still wasn't able to make DDDP.
Now that I started posting, I'll tell about my experience with synth. All three chems that I used were very pure lab reagents all
of which were spec (or whatever) tested. My HCL was 37.5% and 35%H2O2. After weeks or may be even months I added H2O2
and here's what I got: for uncontroled tempr reaction (which heated up a lot and was even spitting for a little while) I got brown
oil that was not at all soluble (5% of total volume). For a narrow (2 cm) and long tube that was fully submerged in crushed ice
+ H2O, I got some yellow precipitate, which soon filled up almost the entire volume of chems but apparently dissolved or
shrunk to about a half the V by next day. That's after sitting for roughly 24 hrs at room temp.
after drying that orange-yellow crap for DAYS, it still acted like putty. It didn't make AP whoosh when set on fire and produced
some black smoke.
I think that it wouldn't dry very well and produced black smoke b/c of that oil. Does anyone know what that oil is?
The_Rsert November 14th, 2004, 04:28 PM

stronger than acetone itself. This substance (phorone?) was cooled to 0*C, and 200ml H2O2 (at ~4*C) was added slowly,
while stirring continuously. The mixture was left aside for 96 hours at room temperature, at the end of which I noticed yellow
fluffy crystals on the sides of the beaker, and floating on top of the liquid. These crystals deflagrated when lit, giving out
flame "tongues" about 3cm long. The fierce "whump!" that accompanies the deflagration of unconfined AP was missing. I
haven't tested the compound under confinement yet.
You had'nt made DPPP!

H2SO4 and aceton will from some propyl ethers which will form peroxides like AP in contact with air or H2O2.
I have heard that pure diisopropyl ether will form pure (maybe mono-) AP in contact with air under reflux.
Maybe another way:

A few weeks ago I have heard that 2l 10% pure percarbonate solotion, 300ml 20% HCL and 300ml or less Aceton will form
after 4 days about 70g pure DPPP (after recrystallising).
Then I have mixed 1l bleach ("Ace - Milde Bleiche", contains 5-15% oxygen based bleach) with 200ml Aceton and 250ml
24%HCL in a 5l canister.
After 3-4 Days i had 36.8g (after recrystallising) of a white explosive powder with a very low density. Maybe it's pure DPPP!
Another idea to separate AP from DPPP:

Make an emulsion of your stuff in water and cook it for a few minutes, AP does decompose in water a 90C, but DPPP will
decompose over 180C.
FUTI November 15th, 2004, 04:07 PM

I do not agree about propyl ether formation from acetone and sulphuric acid. Also ethers make their own kind of peroxides on
standing on air and light exposed through radical mechanism without hydrogen-peroxide added at all. I saw once the result of
mixing sulphuric acid and ketone similar to one described so I do not doubt the report made here. What is the structure of
product is diferent issue. I would bet on condensation if I have to...but I wouldn't like to test my fortune with explosives soo...
I liked the percarbonate idea although the numbers are little confusing for me. It looks like it is very low percent peroxide
solution during reaction after all. If you say it is so, I will trust you, but it seems then that somehow salt made during reaction
forces reaction to making large organic molecule that are salted-out of solution to form precipitate. Enthropy is miraculous
sometimes isn't it?
EDIT: Mumble said it true you can obtain mesitilen from acetone but I thought it needs high temperature. Was that acetone
dried?
Mumble November 16th, 2004, 01:09 AM

stronger than acetone itself. This substance (phorone?) was cooled to 0*C, ....
I can solve this mystery. Your mystery substance is none other than mesitylene(1,3,5-trimethylbenzene). It's an aldol
condensation of acetone catalyzed by acidic or basic conditions. Mesitylene is a redish liquid with a density around .88 with a
strong sweet smell. I'm thinking we have a ringer here.
If you don't believe me have a look for yourself. http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/sci/chemistry/OrganicSynthesis/

chap11.html
Your ratio is almost the same, and you allowed adequate time to react and adequate heat. I'm assuming from your post that
you didn't cool this part of the reaction at all. To form this compound some heat is required.
Myrol November 16th, 2004, 12:14 PM
A Month or so ago, I have made DPPP. The high VoD and being a easy Peroxide.......I tried it once. I didn't remember the
amounts of Acetone, 30% HCl and Hydrogen Peroxide but I have done it this way:
The Acetone and the Hydrochloric Acid was mixed 1:1,5 by Vol. and tempered to 60C for over four hours. I got an deep red
solution wich smelled ABSOLUTELY different as Acetone. I prepared the mix for the peroxidation and added under very strong
chilling (5kilos of Ice-Salt!! :eek: ) small amounts of H2O2. I never had seen this before but even with this huge Icebath the
temperature rose a little after I added 10ml H2O2 to the mix!!!!! White crystals appeared, the mix lost his red colour. After
being ready, I bumped the mix on a big Filter and washed him with lots of Carbonate sol. and cold Water.
The Yield was unsatisfying, a blame for this effort. Something around 60g but Im sure my Batch contained over 600ml liquids.
And the next thing why I hate DPPP-> it stinks terrible, burns and irritates almost everything, the eyes, throat, nose, skin and
your lungs. Im sure it was freed from Acid but DPPP is extremly volatile so thats why I think it irritates so strong!

If DPPP really is as volatile as some people claim that would explain why such a seemingly great explosive is very
uninteresting to explosive experts in general.
The_Rsert November 20th, 2004, 09:07 PM

My explosive powder (made of sodium percarbonate solution) don't stinks.
But it's lighter than normal AP and the dust of it burns in my nose.
The normal AP dust don't burn in my nose.
:confused:
Now, who has made really pure DPPP ??? :confused:

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Another Idea :cool:

When DPPP is acescent, maybe it will form explosive salts.
If anyone have time, please test it salts for properties, and features for example of the DPPP sodium salt.
(mabe it can be prepared by mixing of anhydrous NaOH(39.9971 g/mol) and DPPP(2838.8579 g/mol) in much anhydrous
ethanol. Then recrytallize the the salt if it's possible.
:rolleyes:
Mumble November 20th, 2004, 10:29 PM

EDIT: Mumble said it true you can obtain mesitilen from acetone but I thought it needs high temperature. Was that acetone
dried?
Just the heat of the sulfuric and acetone mixing is heat enough. If you pour the acid in the acetone, you will notice it becomes
very hot, and may even spot boil. Within probably 30 seconds it turns an orange shade and has a familiar aromatic odor being
emited. If you let it cool back to room temp, and dilute with an equal volume of water you will see the redish-orange layer on
top. Trust me, I tried this just last night, I need mesitylene for another project of mine. I think any water in the acetone sort
of catalyses the reaction by providing heat from dehydration with sulfuric acid, and then the conversion to mesitylene produces
even more water so it just continues on.
The method used, just mixing the two, isn't the best method for the preparation of mesitylene, but it does in fact work. If you
actually want to produce the compound, I suggest following the proceedure from the link I provided.
FUTI November 24th, 2004, 05:50 AM

to Mumble: Thanks. I figured this out myself. After all how much you can heat the mixture containing acetone to acetone
boiling point at best. I agree with all said on that issue.
But I have another question...can mesitylene form peroxide?...explosive one?...I know cumene can form hydroperoxide so
there is a slight chance that mesitylene can to...but does anyone know for sure how this work with mesitylene?
knowledgehungry November 24th, 2004, 08:34 AM

When DPPP is acescent, maybe it will form explosive salts.
If anyone have time, please test it salts for properties, and features for example of the DPPP sodium salt.
(mabe it can be prepared by mixing of anhydrous NaOH(39.9971 g/mol) and DPPP(2838.8579 g/mol) in much anhydrous
ethanol. Then recrytallize the the salt if it's possible.
If you look at the structure of DPPP I doubt you will find a way for it to form a salt very easily. For a compound to form a salt it
needs to be able to pick up either a negative or positive charge, neither of which are very likely in this compound.
The_Rsert November 24th, 2004, 11:45 AM

OK, "knowledgehungry", Now I see, too! :eek:
But how does it look with HMTD, I have heard that it will form very unstbale salts in contact with metals...maybe it exsists a
stable salt of it. But that fits not to this thread... :)
To the way with the sodium percarbonate :cool: :

A lab lab assistent, I asked meant, that the bleach "Ace - Milde Bleiche" will form the peroxid very slowly, in cause of the
precipating NaCL and the low H2O2 concentration. So that the acetone go to phoron first. Thats all.
You will never get really pure DPPP by this way I think. :(
But its an good compromise, because(pressed) its better than normal AP.
I have just made it again, with the same bleach but with less HCL so that the phoron will not formed so fast. The product was
much more like the typical AP than/as before.
This supports the theory of the lab assistent.
:( :( :(
And now again, who has made really pure DPPP?
I'm sorry about my bad english.

HMTD has NH2 groups on it which are much easier to form a salt with. Salts in general are less stable than their organic
counterparts.
The_Rsert November 25th, 2004, 09:44 AM

The Yield was unsatisfying, a blame for this effort. Something around 60g but Im sure my Batch contained over 600ml liquids.
And the next thing why I hate DPPP-> it stinks terrible, burns and irritates almost everything, the eyes, throat, nose, skin and
your lungs. Im sure it was freed from Acid but DPPP is extremly volatile so thats why I think it irritates so strong!
Maybe, you have destroyed your phorone in the solution incause of the long heating period.
Was it under reflux? Because acetone does boil at about 57C.
In the original German patent it says, that the yield should be over 90%.
Has somebody fuming HCL?
Because in the original patent it says, that you will need high concentrated HCL and not 25% or 30%. And there it says nothing
with boiling or heating. :)
Here is my link to the original patent:

http://members.fortunecity.de/potatoguns/
To "knowledgehungry":
OK, maybe I will test carefully to make some HMTD salts by myself in the next weeks, bacause the stbale salts will not form
other more unstable salts so fast as normal HMTD. :p
Joeychemist November 28th, 2004, 01:39 AM

Has somebody fuming HCL?
Because in the original patent it says, that you will need high concentrated HCL and not 25% or 30%. And there it says nothing
with boiling or heating.
Rsert
I had a problem once with fuming acid while attempting DPPP, I ran out of lab grade 35% HCL acid so I went out and bought
muriatic acid contain ing 31% HCL acid and a dded it to my acetone, The mix began to fume off wha t Im pretty sure was all of
the chlorine and hydrogen gas that was in the acid, It did not change to phorone, it did not even slightly turn yellow, I let the
first mix fume for awhile, then heated until the acetone was just starting to bubble then I tried a mix in the freezer. No phoron
was formed.
After I added the 6% peroxide and it did not even form a small amount of AP. This is how I know that all of the chlorine and
hydrogen separated from the acid into gas insted of polymerizing the acetone to phorone. If the chlorine and hydrogen would
not have separated from the acid, it would have still acted as a catalyst to form the AP. I have not had this problem before
until I used the muriatic acid. Either the 31% HCL acid in the muriatic acid is not concentrated enough or contains an impurity
other than water.
Dose anyone have an explanation as to why the chlorine and hydrogen was separating from the acid into gas form? I must
say, I was gasping for air after I got a nice whiff of the chlorine. :eek:
nbk2000 November 28th, 2004, 10:01 PM

The peroxide oxidizes and the chlorine is released.
Joeychemist November 28th, 2004, 10:23 PM

The peroxide oxidizes and the chlorine is released.
Mr. NBK
I did not add peroxide to the mix for it to start releasing all of the gas, I just added the 31% HCL muriatic acid to the
acetone and it started releasing all of the gas. 31% HCL acid should be enough to polymerize the acetone to phorone. Like
I said I ve never had this problem with my lab grade 35% HCL while making DPPP and I never have had the proble m since.
It was only the muriatic acid Maybe it was just a nasty side reaction caused but the contaminants in the muriactic acid. I will try
a different brand of muriatic acid to see if the same reaction occurs.

Just a thought but since HCl is already leaving solution at any concentration higher than about 20%, maybe it was just HCl that
make you caugh. When you mix two different solvent, certain amount of energy is released and that would lower solubility of
gas in water. You can try mixing alcohol and destilled water...you will notice bubles leaving solution on their mixing. Maybe this
is what "burn" you during that attempt, if it is as you said happend before you added H2O2. Percent of acid get to low in
solution due to "evaporation" and reaction was slow and you couldn't "salt-out" the product. Just a thought...
Joeychemist November 30th, 2004, 12:25 AM

if it is as you said happend before you added H2O2. Percent of acid get to low in solution due to "evaporation" and reaction
was slow and you couldn't "salt-out" the product. Just a thought...
Futi
The acetone did not p olymeriz e to pho ron so I didn t even have a chance in hell of salting out DPPP, AP was not even
formed. That is what has me so damb convinced that all the HCL turned to gas. (I should have measured the amount of liquid
left in the bowl).
I wish it was just a small amou nt of gas released but I m sure all the chlorine separated and turned to gas . There was on ly
300 ml in the bowl and my garage was filled for fifteen minuets with very thick white gas that floated close to the ground. The
reaction was very violent and produced much more gas then a regular reaction dose.
I understand fully that during the reaction chlorine is freed which bonds with three hydrogen atoms of the phoron to give 3 HCL
and then bonds with the phoron. I also understand that adding the peroxide forces the chlorine off and bonds itself to the
phoron, thus creating more free chlorine.
I was just wondering if anyone else has had this problem with muriatic acid while attempting DPPP. It was two failed attempts
and since then I make a note of it not to run out of th e 35% HCL. 31% sh ould h ave worked bu t didn t, instead it (for some
strange reason or another) reacted violently. :confused:
FUTI December 5th, 2004, 04:09 PM

Now I'm lost. Did you or didn't you added peroxide to solution...NBK2000 already asked this and you said no, now you answer
me something different that AP wasn't formed. If there was no peroxide how it could form in the first place? Sorry if I miss
something in your post but it didn't match the way I see it. Rest of the story is OK. Gas produced heavier than air could be
both Cl2 or HCl.
Does anyone know can CaCl2 added to that solution with slow adding of sulfuric acid generate good mixture of HCl that will
compensate the troubles. You will have to remove CaSO4 and purify the product but if it works better...
edit: NBK2000 proposed chloride being oxidised by peroxide (this is real reaction). You also wrote at first about hydrogen and
chlorine evolution (highly unlikely to occure here), posibly as your first conclusion; but then later reported that gas evolution
starts even without peroxide. And that caused the problem with my understanding of what you posted (like there was not
enough of it already in that reaction).:(
If you gona use ZnCl2 use it in conc. HCl like Lucas reagent. :D
You are right about CaSO4 being hygroscopic, but as you gona use it in water solution it will form dihydrate, this could reduce
the chemical absorption problem but could make the nasty slurry and trap your reactants in physical way. Mix it all well and
filtrate the mixture trough a flutted filter paper, wash the precipitate with small portion of water or acetone, and leave it until
product start crystalize out of solution. I had the impresion that product do not separate during initial mixing, but on
prolonged standing so this procedure could work in that case. I just hope that solid formed do not somehow catalyticaly
promotes product formation (but I doubt it) and entrap it in CaSO4 precipitate, but even in that case you can obtain product
by precrystalisation. Happy hunting! :)
Joeychemist December 5th, 2004, 07:02 PM

I did not add peroxide to the mix for it to start releasing all of the gas, I just added the 31% HCL muriatic acid to the acetone
and it started releasing all of the gas.
FUTI
I think I might have messed you up. If you read word for word I added the peroxide after the gas was formed and
dissipated, and that s h ow I came to the conclu sion that my HCL turned into gas. That s why not even AP was formed .
Because the there was no catalyst left in the solution when I finally added the peroxide to the solution. I knew that DPPP would
not be formed because phorone was not formed. I simply used AP as a reference to the HCL separating from the solution.
About what you said though FUTI, I was thinking maybe ZnCl2 or CaCl2 could be used along with the slow addition of dilute
sulfuric acid too!
But I think because concentrated H2SO4 would be too strong it would lead to carbon and the H2SO4 itself would react with
acetone to form mesitylene.
Also would the CaSO4 not absorb some of the phorone due to the fact the CaSO4 is a bit hygroscopic?
The only way to know fo r sure is to test the theory, becau se after all it s o nly theory until it s p roven a fact!
Joeychemist December 7th, 2004, 08:40 AM

You are right about CaSO4 being hygroscopic, but as you gona use it in water solution it will form dihydrate, this could reduce
the chemical absorption problem but could make the nasty slurry and trap your reactants in physical way. Mix it all well and
filtrate the mixture trough a flutted filter paper, wash the precipitate with small portion of water or acetone, and leave it until
product start crystalize out of solution. I had the impresion that product do not separate during initial mixing, but on
prolonged standing so this procedure could work in that case. I just hope that solid formed do not somehow catalyticaly
promotes product formation (but I doubt it) and entrap it in CaSO4 precipitate, but even in that case you can obtain product
by precrystalisation. Happy hunting! :)
FUTI
I alm ost didn t see you re ed it. Im glad you and I are on the same page now. :cool:
I also think that SnCl4 (Stann ic chloride) sho uld wo rk, I don t have any ZnCl2 or CaCl2, so I will buy some Stannic chloride
and try using that. Which should actually be more eficient than CaCl2. Which if the CaSO4 dose turn into a nasty slurry it would
be a lot of work compared to other methods.
I will try using SnCl4 this week and post my results. Next week I will try some others methods, just for the hell of it. :D
FUTI December 8th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Thanks for mentioning SnCl4 Joeychemist...I was thinking what is neat way to produce good amout of SnCl4. And I found
answer where I weren't expect. School lab drills;)
If you mix SnCl2 with methyl-orange and expose it to sunlight you get Sn4+. I just hope to find the way to get rid of the
balast compunds. I do know that there are beter ways, but SnCl2 is easy to make from solders, and methyl-orange is IIRC
sold at stores as indicator for water pools.

How do you make SnCl2 from solders, and what exactly is a solder anyway?
K9 December 8th, 2004, 06:52 PM

I would assume he means reacting a tin based solder (for welding) with HCl.

SnCl2 is easy to make from solders
FUTI
I hope you know that solder is an alloy, right, Most solder is a mix of 60% Sn 40% Pb, silver can also be used along with other
metals. So FUTI I suggest finding a more pure form of tin to make your SnCl2 with. Have you thought about using tin cans
maybe.
FUTI December 9th, 2004, 06:28 AM

I thought that tin cans contain only thin layer of tin accros other metal made through electroplating. And yes I though about
alloy of tin...I need to find a silver based one since it will give near pure SnCl2 made through dissolving in hydrochloric acid.
PbCl2 isn't much soluble in water and AgCl even less. HCl further reduce solubilty of those and can enhance solubility of SnCl2
through complex formation. PbCl2 can also became more soluble in warm acetic acid solution, so I guess it also can be mede
more soluble through complexation. I read somewhere on this forum that there are Cu based solders? Any hint for me where
to look for specific solder type, I guess some of you guys more experienced in electronics and welding can help me. I didn't
say I made SnCl2 from solders, I'm sorry if it sounded that way...but I certainly will try to do it.
BTW I forgot to say earlier if anyone will try anhydrous ZnCl2 and try making Lucas reagent as I proposed with concentrated
hydrocloric acid...I forgot to say it makes a lot of heat and HCl fumes on mixing. Precool that acid before making
reagens...and if posible it is good idea to melt ZnCl2 in flask under vacuum and cool it down without exposure to water.

McMaster-Carr sells elemental tin in various forms for about $10/pound, last I saw.

Solder is normally an alloy of tin and lead, or tin and silver. Lead free solder is however 99% tin. The only problem with using
solder is the removal of the flux. I'd imagine this could be done relatively easily by simply melting the solder and allowing the
flux to boil off.
Mr.ANFO December 24th, 2004, 01:14 AM

alrighty, I think I have made DPPP in relatively pure form see this http://community.webshots.com/user/matsumoto_hideki
... what % I am not sure but it looks a hell of a lot like Ap with the exception that it has a distictive yellow colouration to it.
My method was via the 1:1 2:1 H2O2 method HCl@35% to Acetone then adding heat taking this liquid down that black-red
colour (VERY DARK) and then letting this liquid sit for a few days to a week in the open to cool and let some of the unreacted
acetone to vapour off. I then took this liquid and chilled it for several hours in a freezer at -25c ie) below -5c is good enough!
The Peroxidation is the hard part since the moment the peroxidation occurs the heat really being to climb rapidly, I find you
have only a few secs between the formation of YELLOW precip and the secondary reaction which intitiates a complete boil
over...
So as soon as you see the precip form wait 3-5 secs then nutralize the reaction with Ammonium Hydroxide.
Precip is yellow to yellow white and has way more power than AP! I have a few movies of AP and DPPP going off in the same
amounts and the results are clearly visible. DPPP also seems to detonate in much smaller quantities than AP does and doesn't
seem to sublime at all at room temp ( It does have a sharp odor simular to AP but more fruity). weird stuff. Please tell me
what you think :)
The_Rsert December 24th, 2004, 06:26 PM

I have just found this:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1031&page=2
"...Another high order explosive that I have tried with sucess is D.P.P.P.D or D.P.P.P.
It is called chemically Dipherone Pentaperoxide (Diamine) and has the highest detonating velocity of all Organic peroxides at
9.8Km sec.
This is made my adding Acetone to HCL and heating it to around 40-50c the mixture turns green/yellow and smells pungent.
leave this to sit/evapourate and collect the yellowish crystals from the residue after the precip has formed. This process is long
12-48hrs and needs careful inspection!!!
Add Hydrogen peroxide to the crstalline mass and chill immediatly in a freezer.
the end result is a greenish soild crystalline mass. Dry this out and it becomes an extreamly powerful heat sensitive explosive
with a det velo of nearly that of PETN! BE CAREFUL WITH THIS STUFF AS IT IS ALSO HIGHLY TOXIC AND FRICTION SENSITIVE//
DONT PUT IT IN A SCEW CAP CONTAINER OR IT WILL DETONATE!!..."
This way of synthesis seems to work fine.

No I have 38% fuming HCL. I will test it tommorow.
:)

Mr. ANFO, (AKA;J-scan, hidiki matsumoto, cato-exp,and Dr.Boom) was recently banned from Sciencemadness discussion
board for being a liar and a k3wl, He is not a credible person, and I strongly suggest you question everything he says. You
will find this forum much stricter tha n the other forums you have k3wle d up with you re bu lls hit. Hideki Mr. ANFO whatever you
call yourself I don t like liars a nd I don t like you :mad:
R Sert
What the hell are you smoking??? Read that thread very carfully. The person that posted that was banned for being a liar and
for flat out being a stupid tard. Actually it was Mr. ANFO (the idiot above your post).
After 48hrs of heat phorone crysta ls will form. That s a ll. The moron who po sted this was just trying to act k3wl at another
forum (where that quote was taken from).
That is just another DPPP synth, only instead of acid/acetone/phorone you use pure phorone crystals. It should work still just
the same. You might even get a better yield.
Barnacles December 24th, 2004, 07:39 PM

Hey joey if you dont like liars don't lie yourself I found you on someones page claiming to be admin here and threatening to
ban him. I thought I'd post this because I cannot mail any mods http://community.webshots.com/scripts/guestbook.fcgi?
albumID=232298508
If hes a filthy liar the people here would find out after very few posts. So don't ruin it for him here quite yet.

The nerve of you shawdow, I did not claim to be an admin or a moderator for this forum. I said this was my forum and I
would kick him ou t if he co ntinue d to lie. And by tha t I meant let the proper p eople know wh ats u p. I was angry and wrote
that post off rather quickly. Don t you dare put words into my mouth shawdow :mad:

Of course I know, that the bad boy who wrote that AP has 200% of the power of TNT has smoked to much musket.
I meant the way, to use the solid phorone.
Maybe the, in the orignial patent described, DPPP yield of 90% is based on the solid phorone?

On December 23, 2004 at 8:00 am, joeychemist wrote:
Hidiki,DR boom whatever, I noticed you joined the explosives and weapons forum under the name j-scan today.well i just want
to tell you that I love the E&W's froum and I will not have you lying or blowbaging or triple posting in my forum. I noticed you
were reading the FAQ's today, I suggest you read the rules. I am willing to let this go. I will not tell my forum members that
you were caught lying at MSDB. bUT IF i (WTF? :rolleyes: NBK) catch you lying or talking out of turn or if I'm even having a
shitty day, belive me,I will kick you out of my forum! I hope you read this and really do become a part of the family.I do
belive you made DPPP and I am glad you show a willingness to learn.I also notice you're from canada,please contact me at
nbk-1killer@lycos.com Joeychemist
He used way too many possessive articles in his sentences, implying that he had the power to make such a decision. That,
and the e-mail addy he used belonged to a member that was previously banned for stupidity. :rolleyes:
Too bad he didn't have the good sense to know better than to even come close to implying he was staff, let alone ME. :p
Though how anyone able to read above the elementry level would confuse me with him, considering his abysmal grammer and
spelling skills...;)
Oh well. He'll no longer be a shadowing our doorsteps here. :)
j-scan December 24th, 2004, 11:11 PM

I believe their is some confusion here. First of all, I am the host for a network of computers. I run a single IP addressed LAN
with multiple users off a HUB. The administrator over at Science Madness went and and banned the entire IP address without
looking at the individual user accounts. 1 user was at fault for blacklisting my entire IP..now nobody can join. not good! I
explained my situation and was called a lier. This really bothered me! I was met with pure hostility...I couldn't even explain
myself first. No...you will not see me "j-scan" double posting at all in this room.
Hopefully, I can somehow speek to the admin of "science madness"and explain the situation again.
------------------
DPPP synth: for which I was called a lier for---->
I was very critical of my roommate for posting material that had not been fully examined. I to tried to prove him wrong by
creating a batch of supposed "D.P.P.P". The crystalline mass at the end of the reaction was light yellow and formed instantly
when the Hydrogen Peroxide came into contact with the Chloro-Phorone. Chlorine gas was expelled from the reaction. I was
able to test 2grams of supposed D.P.P.P product against 2 grams of cold formed AP (dicyclo acetone peroxide I believe--could
be wrong) and the results indicated that supposed D.P.P.P. had a significantly higher detonation velocity through examining
blast fragments from a soup can detonation. Sure the method is crude, but I have a ball park figure and i know this material
is more powerful that standard AP.

All right, the show is over, nothing to see here. Lets keep this thread ON TOPIC from here on in. If anyone feels the need to
discuss this little soap opera make a post in the water cooler. Unless its about explosive peroxides, it does not belong in this
thread.

alright all those who think I lie all the time... explain this ... Why doesn't Phorone directly peroxidize in an HCl soultion?
*****YOU CANNOT PEROXIDIZE PURE PHORONE IT DOES NOT WORK******.. Others have tried and failed miserably. The
method as I stated using 30-40% HCL seems to work just fine, because the phorone is bonded to 5(Cl2)'s = AS THIS IS ALSO
EXACTLY WHAT THE GERMAN PATENT USES
thanx... And yes the crystals are yellow when you are finished.
AND As I said again, it is better to overestimate (as I have done on some occasions, I admit) an explosive than to
underestimate it. Underestimating an explosive usually leads to DEATH or severe injury! Joey and R_sert. NO HARM DONE IN
OVERESTIMATION, HOWERVER THE REVERSE IS ALWAYS TRUE>
Rosco Bodine December 26th, 2004, 11:17 AM

Mr.ANFO ,
Please give a very precisely accurate and thorough step by step description of your method for DPPP ,
so that others may easily reproduce and confirm your results . If you keep things matter of fact and
tell it like it is , then people will respect you , and a flamewar will not waste the bandwidth we are allowed
to use for sharing good information .
j-scan ,
If you have confirmed the method for DPPP , please share your own description
of the method giving all the details as accurately as possible .
It is understandable to become excited when succeeding at an experiment
which has failed for others because of simple details that have not been
fully identified as being important to the outcome of the experiment .
The quantities and order and rates of addition and temperature of reaction
and the times for reactions may be very critical to reproducing good results .
And what may seem simple to someone having succeeded , may include a detail
which confounds a dozen others who cannot duplicate the result because of
a single critical factor which they did not know was essential . Please be precise
in describing times for example , " a few days to a week " is *not* a good indicator
of a reaction time for a mixture where a polymerization is occuring . It would
be better to say some number of hours at a certain temperature . You should
understand the conventional way of describing how a synthesis is performed ,
in the usual style of technical writing which is attentive to the essential details .
Perhaps you could assist Mr.ANFO in doing a proper writeup so that anyone else
can reproduce his reported results .
nuclearattack December 26th, 2004, 02:23 PM

I'm with Rosco, please Mr.ANFO and j-scan give to us a good description of the procedure! I want to replicate the synth and
make some tests with this DPPP, if you are right someone (perhaps me if i'll be able to do DPPP) will confirm your claims and
your reputation will rise a lot. :) Personally i don't believe to people that make bad claims on other persons so i want to follow
your procedure and see once for all if you are right.
Science is not only theory but experiments and incontrovertible results!
SweNMFan December 26th, 2004, 02:37 PM

Did try it today. Mixed 50ml acetone with 60ml 30% HCl and heated it in a salted water bath for maybe 30min, the solution
turned yellow and did fume and smelled not very nice.. anyhow the solution finally stopped producing the white vapour so I
placed the flask in my freezer. It still had dark orange colouring when I took it out. not as red as in the pictures. But it was -8
C and still a solution. It now had a volume of 74ml. So I slowly started to add 32ml 30% H2O2. After the first drop the solution
started to get milky as crystals formed. The temp rose from -8 to 9 C after first 3ml of H2O2 (And I did have a salt, ice bath)
So I dumped in the rest of the H2O2 and then dumped it in the filter, which was a bad thing to do as the H2O2 bleached thru
my coffee filter in 2 sec and the whole batch went down the toilet..
So
The crystals that formed looked more like HMTD than AP and they were slightly yellow.
Don't use synthetic coffee filters when doing this experiment.

Just a little tip:
When you are thinning the milky solution with water before filtering, you can use a normal coffee filter. That's easy and it does
work very fine.
This is sometimes also very good for the yield, because sometimes there is some DPPP/AP dissloved in the acetone which will
be precipated, if you will add some water.

Here is my write up...
I started with a 1:1 ratio of HCL and Acetone and added heat until the color changed to a dark orange. I continued the boil on
a low setting and got the color down to a dark red -black) and then cooled it down over a period of days "freezer would have
sufficed just fine".. The solution changed color again and the viscosity also changed to a motor oil consitency(very thick). This
oily liquid is relitivly pure Pentacholorphorone (dark yellow orange.. looks black in standard light) say 90-95% and about 10-
5% H20.. Ok I am guessing here... It has not much acidity to it anymore. You then have to add a few mls of HCL to get the
peroxidation happening. After adding the HCl you then add H2O2 and give the solution a stir.
Cl2 is immediatly ejected from the solution (you can smell this)which turns bright yellow ( heat climbs up rapidly) and a
yellowish orange precip is immediatly formed at the bottom of the flask... this then eventually migrates to the top of the flask
where you can scoop it out with a plastic spoon. The more pure the liquid the better the yeild.. a small flask say 100ml
SHOULD optimally yeild you around 80ml of crystals.
---problem occured the first time I tried this: because the solution was not completely reacted , TC AP formed with the DPPP...
ALL of the left over acetone must be evaporated in open air for their to be pure DPPP.
-------------------------------------
more info and improved method as of 11pm Dec 25th:
--------------------------------------
Please follow carefully:
For the best results--->
200mL Acetone
300mL Muriatic Acid (30% HCL)
Mix together into a glass container and place into a hot water bath to 100C
Boil for 45 minutes until solution changes to a dark orange-red. Remove heat.
Allow the solution to cool off to 2 C or so for at least 10 hours without a lid. I left my solution for 24hours at room
temperature. The solution should at this time be almost black as the HCL will have converted the majority of the acetone onto
thick viscous Chloro-Phorone. Left over HCL content should be minimal.
The next step is to reintroduce 30ml of HCL catalyst into the Chloro-Phorone solution and add 500mL of chilled 35% H202.
Chlorine gas will be expelled. A mass of yellowish -orange crystals should appear almost instantously, The temperature should
increase slightly but should not boil over.
Dry the crystals using distilled water and ammonia/ or bicarbonate solution. rinse and dry.
-----the end product is quite stable when dry---not as shock sensitive as AP but highly explosive in the presence open flame
or any surface temperature above 190C.

?In terms of filters I use good old fashioned paper towl .. it works well. just don't let the filter paper dry pit or you'll have C4
paper when you go and burn it in the incinerator.
Rosco Bodine December 26th, 2004, 09:21 PM

j-scan
Your description is making sense to me .

The dark red-orange oily product you obtain as a * residue*
from the heated digestion , followed by evaporation of the
acetone / HCl mixture , according to the patent's reaction equations ,
is phorone dihydrochloride . If the patent is correct , this is next
converted to the pentachlorophorone by free chlorine , provided
from the separate side reaction between added HCl and H2O2 .
Evidently the pentachlorophorone formation then releases half
the same amount of HCl as was required in the earlier side reaction
between HCl and H2O2 which provided its 3 added chlorines .
The pentachlorophorone then reacts further with H2O2 to precipitate
DPPP , and also releases its chlorine in the form of HCl , in an amount
which corresponds to the other half of the HCl required for the
earlier production of free chlorine from HCl / H2O2 , along with the
HCl which was first bound with the phorone to form the "red oil"
phorone dihydrochloride precursor . Therefore the combined HCl contained
in the phorone dihydrochloride formed in the first part of the reaction
is released again as HCl upon the formation of the DPPP as a preciptitate .
It is this "extra HCl" being released which is causing the reaction rate to
"ramp" upward and the heating acelleration to be observed . The other
HCl present in the reaction system would be purely catalytic , but since
the concentration of the "catalyst" is always increasing as the reaction proceeds ,
then the reaction becomes "autocatalytic" , and inclined by nature towards
runaway . This sort of reaction has a high potential for disaster unless the
quantity of the reaction mass is limited to what cooling capacity can keep
within safe limits , and the shape of the reaction vessel and cooling surface area must
regard the thermodynamics of a particular "reaction mass" . These sorts of
reactions do not "scale up" directly so great caution should be observed .
For example a 250ml reaction mixture may be perfectly safe to manage ,
but there may be no power on earth which could keep a 25 liter reaction mixture
under control . This is the sort of reaction which must be adapted to continuous
flow and small reacting quantity "reaction zones" instead of any "vat process" for
a single large batch .
Have you tried the reverse order of addition to see if the exotherm is more manageable ?
For example , have you tried adding a catalytic amount of HCl , a few ml perhaps , to
the prechilled H2O2 , and then add the "red oil" to the cold , slightly acidified H2O2 ?
This would allow for the larger volume of the H2O2 to function as a "heat sink" by
virtue of its thermal mass , and serve to more greatly dilute the added HCl being released
as an aggravating autocatalytic presence . A simultaneous drip of a separate stream of
some HCl neutralizer might be started to help control the reaction mixture acidity ,
or perhaps alternately a buffer in the H2O2 could be useful in this reaction .

Have you tried the reverse order of addition to see if the exotherm is more manageable ?
For example , have you tried adding a catalytic amount of HCl , a few ml perhaps , to
the prechilled H2O2 , and then add the "red oil" to the cold , slightly acidified H2O2 ?
This would allow for the larger volume of the H2O2 to function as a "heat sink" by
virtue of its thermal mass , and serve to more greatly dilute the added HCl being released
as an aggravating autocatalytic presence . A simultaneous drip of a separate stream of
some HCl neutralizer might be started to help control the reaction mixture acidity ,
or perhaps alternately a buffer in the H2O2 could be useful in this reaction .
Reply With Quote
.
No, I haven't tryed this way yet. I have some Chloro-Phoron brewing and I will try your alternative method and see if the
temperture remains more stable. :)
---go to upload those photos :)

Yes, my roomate and I.. jscan tried this and the results were not as good. Looks like Pentachlorophorone must have HCl
added to catalyze it, then H202 added to PCP+HCL to peroxidize. Not the other way around or too much heat will be produced
and it reverts back to acetone and a lower phorone %ile is observed. For some reason I keep getting TCAP in the method you
suggest.. I am wondering why this is?
As you suggest keep the reaction small and better yeilds will be produced. OK .. good idea...
Rosco Bodine December 27th, 2004, 01:50 PM

About the scaleup , not necesaarily keep the reaction small ,
as there could be a problem introduced by going either microscale
or macroscale . Until more is understood about precisely what
is occurring in the various reactions , keep the scale moderate
for safety and don't attempt a gallon jar sized batch .
Hydrolysis of the phorone dihydrochloride in preference to its

further chlorination to the pentachlorophorone could make the
reverse order of addition problematic . This process is evidently
affected by small changes , and precisely why so many people
have had problems with experiments to produce DPPP . The
frustration of many failed experiments not properly post mortemed
is likely responsible for many short tempers related to DPPP .
It has been something of a Rubick's Cube for organic peroxide experimenters :eek:
Another thought which occurred to me is that it may be useful to

dilute the "red oil" with cold methanol before adding to it the
H2O2 . And perhaps to divide the amount of HCl added for the
peroxidation catalyst , adding some to the "red oil" and some to
the H2O2 . By such manipulations of the conditions , and by varying
the rates of addition , the reaction can probably be made predictable
so that scaleup can be managed safely . The crystal form of the product
would also likely be improved if the precipitation could be slowed by
such methods .

this is an interesting idea with Methyl Alcohol....and I should try it.
Last night I created several new batches of phorone diHydrogen Chloride...and today I will peroxidize it all and take some
pictures of the process. Hopefully no problems will arise.
stay tuned...
The_Rsert December 28th, 2004, 09:32 AM

I made last evening some chlorphorone.
I heated 200ml fuming HCL with 200ml acetone to 30 min. 50C and let it sit for 15h at 30C. The solution turned very dark.
I heated the solution to 60-70C to evaporate the remaining acetone.
I've just put 3ml of the chlorphorone solution in a test tube and them I've added 5ml 35% H2O2. Some "fluffy" cristalls
precipated.
I put in the column and I let it stand for 5min.
When I've turned back, the solution boils, and in the same second, I've heard a loud pop (detonation). The test tube
chrushed.
My ears are ringing now ;).

From your description you forgot to add HCl to get the reaction going again. Then you add your H202 at 30-35%
concentration. Do not add too much H202 or you will not get the DPPP forming. You'll get fluffy TCAP as the heat increases
rapidly to near boil over. Try and add a little H202 at a time---- you'll see what I mean. The solution will go bright orange and
this is the DPPP precipiate forming. You should get a fairly decent yield*
DPPP is bright yellow-orange and smells nothing like AP when burned-It has a very weak smell--- I guess the closest think to
it would be nitrocellulose. It will detonate with shear power if the material warms up past 200C.
nuclearattack December 29th, 2004, 11:07 AM

To Rsert:
so the reaction works, the only thing to take in big consideration is to cool down the phorone and H2O2 or it will ignite.
I bought the chemicals next week i'll try with the synth. :)

I've made a batch DPPP.
I mixed 150-200ml acetone with 200ml 37% hydrochloric acid in a round 500ml flask and attach a condenser (Liebig cooler).
I put the flask in 90C hot water and put everything on a radiator. After 20min the solution becomes yellow. I hold
temperature between 25C and 40C for 15 hours. I removed the condenser. Evaporate the remaining acetone bring the
solution to boil at 60C for a few minutes). I let everything sood for 12 hours again at room temperature. The solution was
near black coloured. I cooled the solution to -10C in a ice bath and added 50ml 30% hydrogen peroxide. I waited 10min. The
solution turned into two layers. One was (not completely) clear, the other (lower) layer was near black an contains black
cristalls (a phorone). I poured off the clear solution into another container. I added slowly 250ml 30% hydrogen peroxide to
the lower layer. I don't let the temperature rise over 5C. When the addition was finished, I thinned it with the clear solution.
After a few hours (I was on edge, so I left it only for one hour) I filtered it. Then I washed the DPPP with sodium carbonate
solution.
The yield looks promising. :) But it's not dry now. It's also not weighted yet.
And I think that it's possible to improve the yield. :)
You can see some pics here: http://members.fortunecity.de/potatoguns/DPPPSyn.html

YEEEHAWW!
This is what I got when I made my first successful batch of DPPP. Same colour.

I don't no why exactly but the "Edit" function does not work.
So I have to post here my news:
In the filtrate of the DPPP (was clear after filtering), which I've left for 9 hours, much more DPPP is precipated now. :)
So the yield grows up and up and up! :)
And I've just uploaded also the German synthesis instructions: http://members.fortunecity.de/potatoguns/DPPPSyn.html
Next day, I will write a working English synthesis Instruction.

:) !

Well done :)
It would be useful once the DPPP has dried if you could give some explosive properties data. Possibly a comparison with AP?
This is more good news.

I'm just uploading a video which schows you the different bettween DPPP and the double amount AP.
DPPP is many times better than AP!
You can download the video here when the upload it finished (I have only a old 33kb modem) there:
http://members.fortunecity.de/potatoguns/DPPPSyn.html
knowledgehungry December 30th, 2004, 11:21 AM

Is the AP double by volume or weight?

By Volume. But AP has a smilar dumping volume to DPPP.
PS: DPPP will make cracks in nearly every ammount.
I've just co-recristallized/co-precipated some AP with some DPPP. The prdoduct is white.
knowledgehungry December 30th, 2004, 11:59 AM

Next time you do tests could you do it by weight please? This is more accurate than volume for determining relative power of
an explosive. Your doing great though, don't take that as criticism, so far you've done some real good and useful work.

No, my weighing machine can't weigh so little ammounts.
The weighing machine needs a minimum of 0.5g and has a annulment of 0.1g.
Mr.ANFO December 31st, 2004, 02:59 AM

I just tried The_Rsert's DPPP production method and I have to say I have never yeilded as much DPPP in one sitting. From a
250ml container I got about 110-100g of DPPP. I hink once it drys though It may be only 70-80g ? Of course then I have to
purify this further.
My dry DPPP is brilliant sulphur yellow-green how about yours R_sert? Can you please tell me your material looks like?
The_Rsert December 31st, 2004, 10:08 AM
I've made converted the synthesis instructions to the PDF formate.
The_Rsert December 31st, 2004, 08:23 PM

Mr.ANFO
Yes, my looks sulfur-like-green, too.
I've just made a test with less than 30g DPPP charge (in a paper beaker). The target was a butane tank (exactly 15cm away).
See the picture! I've also made a video, which I have to upload next day. Or I will upload only the sound...(size... :( )
And I've also filled a rocket (reaches a high of 100m) with exactly 2.5g DPPP. This was one of the loudest rockets, I've ever
heard! (I will also upload a video or the sound!)
And I've made also a 1.5kg ANNM detonation. (no sound, no video, just a crater :) ) and some FAE tests (This videos I#ve
uploaded already to http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=68572#post68572)
Tommrow I will make some more DPPP.
Ohh! I love silvester! :D
Mr.ANFO December 31st, 2004, 08:46 PM

aha! DPPP is indeed yellow-green. (Sulphur yellow) Ok.
For an experiment I have uploaded on scimadness.org videos compairing small amounts of DPPP vs TCAP.. Also please go
see my webshots account as I have new pics there http://community.webshots.com/user/matsumoto_hideki
Notice the yellow crystals in the jar in the last photo? almost the entire glass was full of them 250ml of liquid and 180-190ml
of DPPP. Ouch. Just weighed the DPPP, still has not fully dried yet but it looks like a good 110-125g yeild... WOW
NEXt project for me will be making DPPP detchord ... .. next thing .. could you please give me access to your videos and pics of
your DPPP crystals. thanx.
The_Rsert January 1st, 2005, 06:55 PM

My DPPP looks very smilar to your's!
I've co-precipated DPPP with AP (1:2). The product is completely white, and it has no good visible differents to normal AP. So
the colour is not a great indicator!
With the videos..., I've still some problems! My encoding program (Dr.DivX) is on strike with my normal video-camera (can't
make pictures). The aground of the problem is my MP3-codec, I think.
I can only make videos without sound or sound without videos :(
The videos and pictures, I've uploaded before are from another (borrowed) camera (can make pictures). :(
Mr.ANFO January 2nd, 2005, 03:51 AM

Here are pictures of a .223 remington mag cartrige test against steel car sheeting 2.5mm thick.
Holy shit... I just did a velocity test and look at this pic
Everyone ... drop your shit and look at this picture of my .223 shell velocity test against thick steel.
Both mini shaped charges were full of AP and or DPPP..

You can clearly see which subtance has more power.
1# AP charge with exactly the same # of grains as DPPP

detonation was strong enough only to nipple the primer and propell it and the base of the shell into the metal. primer was still
in the bottom on the caseing which was retrieved later.
2# DPPP charge was strong enough to punch a BIG crater in the steel and propell the primer almost completely through the
target. BIG blast marks are visible in the target surface indicating a MUCH higher velocity and energy signiture. I have pictures
of the recovered metal fragments from the AP, whereas there was nothing left of the DPPP casing. The primer in the DPPP
charge was atomized as well, but only the very bottom case rim although mageled was left! YES !!! THIS PROVES THE PATENT'S
CLAIM!!!
Child-of-Bodom January 2nd, 2005, 10:36 AM

The R_sert, for how long did you reflux the acetone and HCL?
The_Rsert January 2nd, 2005, 11:02 AM

To Child-of-Bodom:
First for 15min at about 70C (to start the reaktion) and than for about 15 hours at about 30C.
I've just made a new DPPP detonation. The destruction of 10g DPPP looks like the destruction of 50g APAN! This suff is
defenitly times more powerful than normal AP. The synthesis is very remunerative (I hope, this is the right word ;) ).
And it's less sensitiv piezo-sparks than AP. (pure DPPP does not iginite when it's hit by a electric-piezo-spark). This schould be
a better indicator for the purity as the colour.
Mr.ANFO January 2nd, 2005, 12:10 PM

Gee, good news R_Sert I couldn't beleive it myself about just how much power this stuff has, I as I was told by some people
on Science madness I was full of shit and that I was using picric acid or something like RDX/PETN to do the damage I showed.
I was nearly able to punch a hole in thick steel flooring (2.5mm) (I thought it was 4mm) thick with just about 1g of
compressed DPPP wereas the compressed AP just barely scratched the surface. Another thing to note was that the brass casing
bits actually punctured the steel in the DPPP test. This stuff has got to be detonating well beyond 6000m/s per gram (at least
9km/sec in my estimate) WOW looks like the patent was OTL after all.
Rosco Bodine January 2nd, 2005, 04:36 PM

Gee, good news R_Sert I couldn't beleive it myself about just how much power this stuff has, I as I was told by some people
on Science madness I was full of shit and that I was using picric acid or something like RDX/PETN to do the damage I showed.
You misunderstood what was said there , because I agreed the DPPP witness plate starburst evidenced higher brisance than AP
, because the impact welding of brass fragments into steel is typical of brisant explosives like picric acid or better , and not
typical for AP . I was nearly able to punch a hole in thick steel flooring (2.5mm) (I thought it was 4mm) thick with just about
1g of compressed DPPP wereas the compressed AP just barely scratched the surface. Another thing to note was that the brass
casing bits actually punctured the steel in the DPPP test. This stuff has got to be detonating well beyond 6000m/s per gram
(at least 9km/sec in my estimate) WOW looks like the patent was OTL after all.The actual velocity is going to depend upon
the column diameter and length , strength and rigidity of the confinement , and the manner of initiation . Very likely the peak
velocity cannot be reached with a 1 gram charge , and also very likely there is a minimum critical mass where brisance
sufficient for use as an initiator is efficiently achieved . If a half gram is below that threshold , then a 2 gram charge could do
three or four times the damage of a 1 gram charge ...if that makes sense . But that sort of math does not follow for much
larger charges only for detonator sized amounts in the case of a material such as DPPP . The effect of increased charge
weights is disproportionately increased after a certain transition point , which is a sort of "critical mass" for making the leap to
high order detonation . Below and in the near vicinity of that
quantity , the stuff is "just playing around" in terms of what double that amount will do under the same conditions .
Mr.ANFO January 3rd, 2005, 01:13 AM

Agreed, Rosco and by now you must have heard about today's test involving approx 30grains ~1.93g of DPPP & TCAP under
~2kg compression in a .223 shell? Were you able to download Pyroz's .pdf file? My ears are still ringing after that test...
I am going to give Science madness a rest for a while as I get too excited/ passionate and makes me go crazy. crazy +
explosives = danger :)
This will be my domain and Pyroz my host will have his own space on Science madness from now on for a bit.
mr.pyro January 3rd, 2005, 03:21 AM

I just tried the written synthesis by Rsert. The oily substace appeared after heating for 2 hours at 50 C and then heating for 15
h at 30 C. I cooled it to -10 C and Added 50Ml H2O2. IT was cooled back down to -10 C but no black crystals came out,
because there was already a heavy yellow precipate. I waited for about 1/2 hr to see if any balck crystals would precipitate out,
none did, so I added 200 ml more H2O2 and the precipitate was similar looking to Rserts pictures.
Edit
I just filtered what ever precipitated out and after neutralization, can not be more then 10g of DPPP. This seems like a shitty
yeild from more then 400 Ml of Reagents. I think that the initial adding of 50 mL H2O2 might have been to much to fast, and
instead of causing the seperation of layers, caused the DPPP to precipitate.
Mr.ANFO January 3rd, 2005, 05:12 AM

really. If the solution is fairly pure and uniformily heated you will not be able to get any "black crystals" as these "crystals" are
polymerized Phorone and Phorone HCl and are relativly inert. If you get these it usually means you have overheated the
acetone and HCl mix.
Hold your black liquid to the light, if no light passes through it you are ok, if you see a red colouration at the bottom you have
either leftover unreacted acetone or HCl and need to add more acetone or HCl accordingly.
----TIP****It may be nessesary to add an additional 5ml of HCl if the pH is too low inorder to get the DPPP to form properly.
If you had left your DPPP to form in a freezer and VERY slowly added you H2O2 over the course of several hrs say 4-6hrs
between the first peroxide addition and the remainer peroxide you would have had a MASSIVE yeild! I had 250ml of Phorone
HCl and yeilded just shy of 100g.
I am just warning you that DPPP is incredibly powerful so 2g is roughly equivalent to the same amount of PETN. Check out
Science madness forums and download the test.pdf on DPPP as it will show you just what kind of power this stuff has.
My synth: I added 5ml HCl chilled the entire mix to about -25 to -30c then added 38ml H2O2 and gave it a good stir. I then
left it to sit for 5hrs to form the seed crystals. 5hrs later the Solution was HOT orange colour, I then added all my remiander
H2O2 slowly taking 5-10mins and stiring while I was doing this to observe any heating between applications, I then left the
entire solution to settle for another few hrs. By this time the solution was neon yellow, "this is pure DPPP colouration" and then
filter and let it warm up and nutralize all the acid.
nuclearattack January 3rd, 2005, 05:36 AM

Wow! The plate test is amazing! :eek: :eek:
This stuff is incredible not only for detonators but also for APAN (DPPPAN) or DPPP putty. ;) :D
It should be interesting making a power comparison test beetween Tetrameric AP and DPPP.
To Mr.ANFO:
why don't you attach the test.pdf file on your post? ;)
The_Rsert January 3rd, 2005, 02:12 PM

I just tried the written synthesis by Rsert. The oily substace appeared after heating for 2 hours at 50 C and then heating for 15
h at 30 C. I cooled it to -10 C and Added 50Ml H2O2. IT was cooled back down to -10 C but no black crystals came out,
because there was already a heavy yellow precipate. I waited for about 1/2 hr to see if any balck crystals would precipitate out,
none did, so I added 200 ml more H2O2 and the precipitate was similar looking to Rserts pictures.
Edit
I just filtered what ever precipitated out and after neutralization, can not be more then 10g of DPPP. This seems like a shitty
yeild from more then 400 Ml of Reagents. I think that the initial adding of 50 mL H2O2 might have been to much to fast, and
instead of causing the seperation of layers, caused the DPPP to precipitate.
Yes, maybe. But I'm not sure about this :confused: . Add the H2O2 more slowly and stop when the phoron will begin to
precipate.
Another reason is that maybe the phorone is semi-solouble in acetone/water, so evaporate the acetone better and maybe and
add some ice.
Was your reaction between HCL and acetone under correct reflux?
Mr.ANFO January 3rd, 2005, 02:42 PM

Ok here is the .pdf file. I was just reviewing all the properties listed on the patent
Properties: I have commented beside them..
a) insoluble in water (yes)

b) still explosive when heavily contaminated (yes)
c) detonation velocity approx. 9000m/s (indeed it has got to be)
d) low detonation temperature approx. 200C (yup)
e) does not develop smoke upon detonation, does not smell, no solid residues. (YES)
f) ignition by fire, blasting cap or electric (yup)
g) does not decompose at long storage (we will see)
h) yield of manufacturing process approx. 90% (yes 70-80% is typical, but 90% is realistic as well)
My DPPP observed properties
g) Colour is BRIGHT yellow and looks white-yellow when moist/wet.

h) Needs a good jolt ( a hard strike) to set it off unlike most other proxides
i) Has a rather irritating camphor-like odor
j) Does not seem to react with metals to create metal peroxide salts.
k) Black soot and some brown residue apon deflagration as well as an odor.
Rosco Bodine January 3rd, 2005, 03:18 PM

Agreed, Rosco and by now you must have heard about today's test involving approx 30grains ~1.93g of DPPP & TCAP under
~2kg compression in a .223 shell? Were you able to download Pyroz's .pdf file? My ears are still ringing after that test...Yes
these tests seem pretty conclusive that DPPP is a more brisant explosive than AP . All of these experiments are interesting ,
as we gain some little perhaps useful detail towards a good understanding about DPPP and discover its secrets .
I am going to give Science madness a rest for a while as I get too excited/ passionate and makes me go crazy. crazy +
explosives = danger :)
This will be my domain and Pyroz my host will have his own space on Science madness from now on for a bit.It is always a bit
of a thrill when a plan comes together , just try to keep objective so that the subtleties of observation are not made
complicated by any inaccuracies which cause a description of the
facts you "catch" from your experiments to become like the dockside telling of a "fish story" that is the temptation for every
successful fisherman . That is expected as a tradition among fisherman , to see how big the lies can get in good humor so
eveyone may laugh at the absurdity . All my fish stories are true of course , especially about the even bigger one that always
got away ;) But science is by nature a sort of "dry" and trudging , meticulously accurate sort of endeavor . Be dull and objective
until all the good data is proved and analyzed , then later be as excited as you like . We all get excited too when an
experiment goes well , but have to keep a certain reserve to do good science and get all the details down straight , so we can
"certify" the method and guarantee the "repeatability" of the results , even if just for ourselves to benefit the next time we do
the same experiment .
Baquacil is a very storage stable product indeed . I just did an accurate density
measurement to determine the actual H2O2 content on a half full jug of Baquacil thathas been sitting at room temperature for
3 years . The fresh material was 27.5 % H2O2 by density measurement , and after 3 years storage the strength is 26.6%
which is a reduction of just under 1% . That is excellent stability indeed for peroxide after 3 years at room temperature .
The_Rsert January 3rd, 2005, 05:17 PM

I've just bought some .223 remington mag cartriges. I will make some tests with DPPP against AP, HMTD (yes, I know what I
will do), tetrammincopper(II)-persulphate, lead styphnate, some co-precipated products (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?t=4463), maybe RDX, maybe MHN, maybe CTMTNA and maybe PETN if possible.
mr.pyro January 3rd, 2005, 09:37 PM

Was your reaction between HCL and acetone under correct reflux?
No, I left it uncovered. It vapored off probably about 1/4 of the total Acetone/HCL mix. It did form a thick oily substance that
was described though.
I am retrying it, because I tested .1g of my total 5g precipate from the first batch, and confined with only Al foil made quite a
bang, about the same as 1g of Flash in a tube. I have started the reaction, heating the Acetone/HCl at 50 C for 2 hours
covered by Saran wrap, but with ice on top to condese the vapor. Little % of the solution was lost. It is now still on heat at 50C
approaching the 2.5 hr mark, but is an opaque black but with a red tinge when viewed from the bottom. I will let it heat under
these conditions until 3 hrs is reached. Then take it off heat, boil as 60C for a few minutes, per Rsert's sythesis, and then
continue to heat uncoved at 20-30C overnight.
Mr.ANFO January 4th, 2005, 03:58 AM

If one is making detcord, for the binder what would one need in theory? Or is DPPP fine enough to be used all on its own
compressed in a clear 1cm dia vinyl tube?
The_Rsert January 4th, 2005, 01:50 PM

You can powderise DPPP very easy very fine. Just put it in into a zip-plastic bag and kneat it with your fingers. You will get a
very fine powder. Wear industrial gloves!
Edit: The DPPP must be 10000000% dry!
SweNMFan January 4th, 2005, 02:41 PM

If one is making detcord, for the binder what would one need in theory? Or is DPPP fine enough to be used all on its own
compressed in a clear 1cm dia vinyl tube?
PETN detcord doesn't have a binder, just loose PETN in the middle and my nations armys detcord have 10g/m..
If DPPP is as powerfull as reported you will not make a detcord with a 1cm tube, you will end up with something else, like
something to cut holes in doors, small safes or the side of a armoured money transport..
Mr.ANFO January 4th, 2005, 07:26 PM

Yes, indeed DPPP is as powerful as reported..
9000m/sec = ~31,000ft/sec 9Km/sec isn't fast enough for detcord??
you are shitting me about only 10g/m since that is too a weak a detcord & it wont do a dam thing. 110g/m detcord is used all
the time for taking down trees and such. I think that is what you mean?

What he is saying is that a 1 cm diameter detcord of an explosive as powerful as this is assumed to be would be overkill. He
is saying that it is too thick for a detcord.

oohk... Sorry I ment .5cm dia 1cm cic tubing for wine making. That is more realistic?
SweNMFan January 5th, 2005, 03:34 AM

you are shitting me about only 10g/m since that is too a weak a detcord & it wont do a dam thing. 110g/m detcord is used all
the time for taking down trees and such. I think that is what you mean?
No standard issue swedish army detcord only have 10g/m . Why waste explosives on trees when we had 2 chainsaws issued..
As PETN have a VOD of ~8500m/s DPPP will probobly work too..
xyz January 5th, 2005, 04:47 AM

Mr. ANFO, cutting down trees is more of a novelty use for detcord...
It's main use is to connect a series of seperate charges together, so that they can all be detonated simultaneously (give or
take a few fractions of a second) from a single detonator.
Basically, it allows you to detonate multiple charges with a single detonator and fuse, something that would usually require
multiple detonators and an electrical ignition system.
Of course, there are also heavier grades of detcord for demolition and "forestry work" :D

I do know about the main uses for detcord thanx, but I was looking at the BIG detcord that was used in the high explosives/
cutting trees with detcord thread on this forum.
I thought primacord was what was used for connecting charges together?
I though PETN had a detvol of 9.3Km - 10.4Km/sec?
SweNMFan January 5th, 2005, 01:26 PM

Primacord is a trademark , just a brand name for one com pany s d etcord
a single pure PETN crystal with the density of 1,77g/cm2 have a vod at 8500m/s .. PETN detcord usually lay around 7000m/s
as there is air between the crystals.
Oh and I seen some DPPP references saying that the VOD is around 6600-6800m/s but I can't find it again now..

I thought, that (pressed) PETN has a maximum VOD of 8700m/s.
Detcords a better for make round holes in doors as for cutting trees.
:).
Maybe I will make some MEKP to mix it with DPPP. This schould give a very powerful explosive!

oh, now I am confused Detcord and Primacord are the same thing? then what's the stuff called that is used for taking down
20inch dia trees that is 1cm dia? detcord?
Well as far as DPPP's detvol the original german patent states 9km/sec clearly. As far as PETN I was almost certain that
detonated above 9Km/sec.
BTW MEKP isn't something I want to make as it is soo incredibly mutagenic/immediatly toxic absorbing through the skin.
Microtek January 6th, 2005, 05:56 AM
"Detcord" may once have been a trademark for a specific product, but these days it is usually simply referring to a length of
hose filled with explosive. It comes in various sizes for different purposes but is usually used for detonating blasting charges
simultaneously, such as in charges employing colliding shock waves.
Detcord is also sometimes called "detonating fuse" and a version known as mild detonating fuse exists which contains less
than 0.1 g/m of PETN in a metal hose. This is usually used as a delay in warheads when very precisely timed detonations are
required.
As for the detonation velocity of PETN and DPPP, well, DPPP is not known with any degree of certainty but PETN lies in the
8300-8500 range depending on confinement and charge dimensions ( although PETN isn't nearly as dependent on these
factors as is RDX ).
As detonation velocity is so very dependent on density, I find it extremely unlikely that any explosive with a density of around
1.1 could possibly reach a VOD of 9000 m/s. There is only a handful of explosives that cross this line in the first place and
they ALL have densities from 1.8 to 2.x.
I know that the patent claims VOD = 9000 m/s but many patents contain exaggerated claims, so I am not convinced of this
VOD until someone actually measures it.
Please understand that explosives don't need an extremely high VOD to be very powerful; so claims like " A small amount of
this explosive made a large hole in this target, so VOD must be at least 9000 m/s" are completely misleading ( regardless of
whether the VOD actually IS at least 9000 m/s; its the logic that is flawed ), and tend to make knowledgeable members very
sceptical of your other statements.
Rosco Bodine January 6th, 2005, 05:03 PM

What is still needed is a detailed technical writeup for the synthesis of DPPP ,
having no ambiguities about measured amounts of materials , their purity and concentration , the conditions for their
admixture including temps and order of addition ,
reaction times and method of stirring , heating , cooling , neutralizing , filtering , drying ,
and the weight and percentage yield based upon what precursor , as is the information
supplied by a usual description of an experimental synthesis . That is the sort of definitive information which allows for others
to duplicate reported results , instead of having a
hundred questions about the details . So perhaps these people who report having made hundreds of grams of DPPP could
make notes carefully as they perform the synthesis
and then share the detailed information . I have done some preliminary experiments and
the results from those experiments are indicating that the details are important for achieving any good yields of DPPP . I do
not believe that the synthesis of DPPP has yet been adequately described so anyone who is having good success please share
any of the
more detailed information you may offer , along with any refinements to the process which
you may have devised .

I remember, that one member of the Sciendemadness Forum evaporated the acetone to hot from the solution. The solution
turned clear.
Now, my questions: Is it possible, that the oily liquid is only chloracetone (in my chemistry bokk it says that it has a low boling
point and is near black and oily) and not dihydrogen chlorphorone is?
Is is it possible that the stuff we have made maybe chloracetone peroxide is and not DPPP?

If indeed we have made chloroactone peroxide then why is chlorine given off when H2O2 is added?
As far as I know Chloroactone has a boiling point around room temp and if you had made it, you woulden't be around to post
here on the form as it is a blister agent and very deadly!
Chloroacetone is also a translucent deep yellow, not thick and black red.
Rosco Bodine January 7th, 2005, 01:50 AM

The DPPP which I just successfully made has a pale yellow tan color ,
and a fine crystalline texture almost like pumice but a bit more coarse .
The freshly precipitated material is fine enough that it cakes when wet
but coarse enough that it filters easily and rinses well . It gradually floats
to the top of the peroxidation mixture , from trapped small bubbles of oxygen
from the hydrogen peroxide , forming a floating raft of crystals which can be skimmed
from the surface using a spoon and transferred to a filter for rinsing .
In its physical texture it resembles fine crystalline HMTD more than the
coarser crystals of AP . It is sensitive to alkaline pH , decomposed by
ammonium hydroxide so it is preferable to skim it from the acidified peroxidation
mixture and rinse it with plain water , then neutralize any residual acidity under
only mildly alkaline conditions , perhaps using 2% baking soda , I'm not sure for
not having tried that yet . The odor is very aromatic , something similar but
different from eucalytpus oil , or sassafras , spicier than menthol or wintergreen ,
a "caphorous aromatic essence" a very distinctive aromatic odor , difficult to characterize because it is a distinctive fragrance of
its own , like trying to say what turpentine smells "like" ? ( well it smells "like turpentine" :D ) and the same for DPPP , it
smells like DPPP , a very distinctive odor . I believe it is physiologically active . Good ventilation
would be wise precaution , and I wouldn't recommend getting a deep whiff of the stuff
to confirm what it smells like . Perhaps the feshly made material is perfumed by traces of
byproducts and the scent will diminish upon drying , but I'm telling you to my nose the stuff
absolutely reeks . A dog could smell a teaspoon of DPPP a mile away . So this could be
the deficiency that would make this material undesirable , the odor and probable toxicity
are not things which commend DPPP . The properties of DPPP otherwise are worth investigating , and bindered compositions ,
or mixtures might remedy those deficiencies .
YEs Rosco then you have exactly what I have, as Mine has a sort of a camphorish odor to it... sort of Pineish sort of
eucalyptusy......? can't describe it really. It is also highly irritating to the eyes and nose.. careful. I really do not think it is toxic
however as most phorone relatives are quite safe. Phorone is listed only as an irritant. However don't go by that.. It does burn
the skin like most organic peroxides. My fingers go burn after touching it (typical peroxide burn), i know not really that safe..
however I am reffered to as the human ginea pig.
I really think that the camphor odor is in fact the actual DPPP.. the stuff we wanted to synthesize. I will take a small sample
next week to university.
knowledgehungry January 7th, 2005, 08:39 AM

Rosco, you ask for a detailed write up of the synth but you have succesfully made it yourself? Maybe you would like to do the
write up? I'm sure we would all appreciate that very much, considering your experience. I am going to work with DPPP as soon
as I get some time, but for me that may mean a month from now.
Rosco Bodine January 7th, 2005, 09:39 AM

Okay , here's what I know or believe is likely true at this point about DPPP .
Many more experiments will be required before some ideas can be regarded
as conclusive findings about the synthesis of DPPP , however I am willing to
go out on a limb early with a few ideas so that others may do their own tests
to see if these ideas square with their own results .
First of all the molar ratio of HCl to acetone is important , as is the time and
temperature they are reacted before the peroxidation . Maintaining the proportion
of acetone and HCl requires a sealed bottle for the digestion of the mixture .
Otherwise the acetone evaporates and results in a variable mixture . Not
much pressure is developed and the reaction sufficiently rapid having a bath
temperature of about 75 C. If a metal threaded lid is used , then a heavy
ziplock "freezer baggie" placed flat over the container under the metal cap
before it is secured will prevent the cap liner from being destroyed by the
fumes and contaminating the reaction mixture when it detaches . A bottle
having a plastic and polyseal cap is best for the sealed bottle digestion .
It is the soluble or finely dispersed portion of that digested acetone HCl mixture
which will be reactive with the peroxide . The resins or oils which may precipitate
represent a loss of precursor and should be filtered before peroxidation using a double
thicknes of coffee filter wetted with water before filtration . There isn't much
of anything to be gained by excessive temperatures or extended hours of heating
the acetone and HCl to the point it becomes so dark as to contain suspended
or separated resinous precipitate . Such "black oily" material will not be converted
to DPPP , but will only precipitate as clumps of sticky insoluble goo contaminating
the more and more aqueous peroxidation mixture . This is why filtering before
peroxidation is a good strategy for removing the bulk of such suspended material.
Molar ratio of HCl to acetone should be 2 to 3 , with only very slight excess of theory
for the HCl on the order of 3 % seems in the ballpark . Using more HCl or heating
the mix too high or too long causes resinous insoluble products to precipitate and this
should be avoided to the extent possible . Exact optimums for ratio and times have not been yet determined so this can be
an area for close measurement and comparison of
results .
The greatest exotherm during the peroxidation occurs during the addition of the first
10 to 15% of the total peroxide to be added . This initial peroxidation should be done
with efficient stirring and slow , even dropwise addition of the peroxide . I have used no
cooling during this initial addition , or only a shallow plain water bath , and allow the
stirred mixture to heat up from the exotherm to about 65 C . The addition of peroxide
is stopped and then ice is added to the bath to cool down the mixture to 10 C , the stirring
being continued the entire time , and then addition of the peroxide resumed more rapidly
at such a rate as to maintain about 15 C to the end of the addition . The stirring is continued for thirty minutes after the end
of the addition and stopped . The crystals
will form a floating raft , from adherent bubbles of oxygen which make them buoyant and
may be skimmed from the surface using a plastic spoon and transferred to the filter .
The crystals should be rinsed on the filter , and neutralized with only dilute alkali . Strong
ammonia will decompose the DPPP . The material is very aromatic and the vapor is irritating
and perhaps intoxicating , and should not be considered harmless until more is known .
An experiment is in progress , and this was posted earlier over at Mad Science .
Honestly , to my old eyes , this forum is damn near unreadable in the new
BombShock color scheme . I get a headache trying to read this reverse contrast
tiny text , and can't understand why anyone in their right mind would prefer this
illegible nonsense or pretend they do to please the management here . Sorry
but I call it like I see it and take my knocks if I must . Anyway , the information
here is pasted from my post at the other forum where the topic really started .
I have a new batch of acetone and HCl reacting , in which I made a far less excess acidity than the earlier batch that I think I
scorched with too much acid .
I remembered when I was observing the first sealed bottle experiment that I had the idea that this reaction is pH sensitive ,
so I tried to measure very carefully the acetone and HCl to achieve
just a 3% excess of theory of HCl to acetone . The results are distinctly superior in terms of color development and the purity
of the color is striking at
3 1/2 hours . The color is that of "ruby glass" pure red , brilliant red , not any "tea color" to this batch . I have a good feeling
about this ratio just based on
the clarity and depth of color . If nothing else it is pretty . What I used was exactly
112 ml acetone and exactly 105 ml HCl 31.45% , mixed and allowed to stand in a sealed bottle for 1 1/2 hours without
supplemental heating , and then heated for 2 hours still in the sealed bottle , in a 75 C water bath . I have removed it from
the bath , and am allowing it to cool and stand overnight .
I must say that quite different reaction rates and color developments are being observed with small changes in the acetone to
HCl proportions , so obviously
some exactness is needed about these
measurements and reaction times and temperatures . And then when to proceed with the peroxidation and at what rate and
temperature and other conditions are important also . This synthesis is not one which is likely to work across a wide range of
conditions ,
as is the synthesis of regular AP . So please , those of you who are having success make careful and detailed notes of what
you are doing and what you are getting out the other end as yields .

I reveresed your amounts Rosco leaving a slight excess acid to actone made my yeilds jump up like crazy! My last batch was
249ml HCl 35% to 246ml Acetone. A little bit of excess acid seems to make the reaction run a little quicker, as well no extra
acid is needed during peroxidation had the amounts been reversed.
Keep on producing there Rosco and save all your DPPP, nutralize it, dry it out and stick it into a double plastic bag and store it
in a cool dry place.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > APAN as a primary for salutes and the like
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xyz October 19th, 2002, 06:20 AM

I have recently dreamed about doing some experiments with APAN and trying to find out at what ratios it is still flame sensitive (I started a topic about this in the HE section a
while ago).
I stopped doing that after finding that 50/50 APAN was still flame sensitive and left it at that, as I had plenty of each and it worked well.
Anyway, Me and a friend dreamed that we had a film cannister full of APAN which was probably about 15/75 to 20/80 APAN and would have been 30/70 tops (left over from
some charges we dreamed of). Today we were about to throw this away and we decided what the hell, let's stick some in a firecracker case (polumna triangle) and see what
it does.
We expected to just burn or have no effect but got quite a surprise when it exploded almost as powerfully as a triangle with straight AP.
We filled two cobs with the rest and they both worked perfectly making nice loud booms (it makes a much lower pitched sound than straight AP and almost as loud).
Our APAN was pretty dry (AN prills straight out of the plastic bag they came in, ground up, mixed and used 5mins later, hardly any water absorbed by the AN) so that could
have been the cause of it's flame sensitivity.
I think that this is a great way of "cutting" AP for use in salutes as AN is cheap ($1AUS a kilo) and I personally prefer the nice boom to the sharp bang of straight AP. I would
like to hear from anyone else who tries this.
P.S. The AN we used was about 75% powder and 25% prills as we couldn't be bothered grinding it all.
ShockWave October 19th, 2002, 06:54 AM

I wish we could buy the pure AN here too, I always have to boil out the water and let it dry which is alot of work.
In australia they don't ask questions when you will buy 50kg?
Have fun with putting a 200gr APAN charge into a big bag filled with AN and dieselfuel, and don't forget to take it on video. :D
Mick October 19th, 2002, 12:15 PM

i wasn't asked any questions when i bought a 50kg bag of AN.
i don't bother cleaning my AN, i just grind it up in a blender add X% of AP and mix it up. then detonate. never had a failure. i didn't bother cleaning it for APAN Putty either.
i think however for things like ANFO or ANNM you need to clean it. i've tried ANFO about 100 times now, and each time its failed. i assume this is because i always based the
fuel ratio on having pure AN. i didn't occur to me untill about 6 ANFO misfires that i didn't acctually have pure AN(one of those "oh, DUH!" moments).
hopping to try ANFO very soon with an APAN booster.

100times anfos and none of them detonated? well, with annm or apan it was no problem at my Anfo, once I had 1kg AN and added 50gr diesel, with a 200gr apan detonater it
worked very well, my main problem is that we can not buy pure AN in the Netherlands, which is good, otherwise I had done some really nasty things :D
xyz October 19th, 2002, 08:13 PM

Where did you get your AN Mick? I am surprised that it is impure as I get mine from a fertilizer distributer (fertilizer grade AN) and it seems to be about 99.5% pure (no
impurities that don't dissolve in water anyway, the whole lot dissolves) and needs no dissolving or purifying. The only drawback is that the prills are solid and not porous like
you need for ANFO.
BTW, It is $1AUS for 1 kilo, I haven't yet needed to buy more than a few kilos at a time. No questions asked with the AN (or acetone or H2O2 or conc. acids for that matter)
BUT they will only sell KNO3 to adults as "Kids make bombs from it" :) and we have to get my friend's dad to buy our KNO3 for us (they sell AN and everything else to kids
without a second thought though...)
SATANIC October 20th, 2002, 08:26 PM

well 50 kg bags are easy to get from farm supply places... there's usually one or two even in the cities.... when i rang for prices, they were fine wih AN, but as soon as i asked
for KNO3 they started asking lots of questions.... "what for", "where abouts" etc...
I just said I was looking for a high potassium / nitrogen soluble fertiliser for my dad, which seemed to go down ok.
where do you buy it by the kilogram tho? I have only seen 25 / 50 kg bags in farm supply.... maybe it's time i looked in hydroponics stores?
anyway, about actual APAN, 15 % AP means very cheap salutes / crackers. what sort of damage did they do? unless confined, the AN wouldn't do much explosive damage
right..... so it would be safer as well...

Satanic - Where are you in Aus? Add me to MSN if you have it inferno_x_2001@hotmail.com.
You can order 25kg bags of KNO3, Ca(NO3)2 or AN for about $30 delivered to your door (awesome deal eh) from <a href="http://www.duralite.com.au"
target="_blank">www.duralite.com.au</a> . Otherwise, for similar pricings, try <a href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/
nutriflo</a> . The latter also sells 5L jugs of 75% HNO3 for AU$62.50 excl. freight (Hazmat would take the price right up).
0EZ0 October 25th, 2002, 02:01 AM

G'day everyone
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You can order 25kg bags of
KNO3, Ca(NO3)2 or AN for about $30 delivered to your door (awesome deal eh) from <a href="http://www.duralite.com.au" target="_blank">www.duralite.com.au</a> .
Otherwise, for similar pricings, try <a href="http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo" target="_blank">http://users.bigpond.net.au/nutriflo</a> . The latter also sells 5L jugs of
75% HNO3 for AU$62.50 excl. freight (Hazmat would take the price right up).
<hr /></blockquote>Duralite's products tend to fluctuate quite a lot, as at the moment they are not selling any
nitrates on their site's online shop.
I have been aware of this source for nitrates for quite some time.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You can order 25kg bags of
KNO3, Ca(NO3)2 or AN for about $30 delivered to your door (awesome deal eh) from <a href="http://www.duralite.com.au" target="_blank">www.duralite.com.au</a> .
<hr /></blockquote>@inferno: be aware that 30 bucks only buys the product. Freight/Courier/Whatever is not
included in the price.
Finding most sources for chemicals should not be that hard. All i can say is that you should persist and you will find what you are looking for. Hell, something you have been
after might be right under your nose. Don't wuss out and say that you can't find a source for a chemical that is widely used. Persist and you will succeed <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
I have found that when inquiring about purchase to various companies, they always tend to tell you about crappy regulations. <a href="http://www.workcover.vic.gov.au/
dir090/vwa/home.nsf/pages/related+sites" target="_blank">WorkCover/WorkSafe </a> have strict guidelines on transport and storage of hazardous items. Cost of
transporting your purchase to you may be quite high.
Also be aware that some insurance companies may not insure a property that stores AN. But who's to say that they will find out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> .
I know it seems i'm kicking up a fuss about all the crappy Aus. legislation :mad: . But i just want to make sure that fellow Aussie's know about these things and are aware, so
they can find ways around it.
(*Trying to haul self out of hole)

Back on topic...
Using APAN in salutes with a high AP content will surely work. Another composition to look at would be ALAPAN (Al Powder-Acetone Peroxide-Ammonium Nitrate), but if your
thinking of cutting price then it may not be suitable.
Although it may work, Trying to use APAN for salutes and general firework use would not be advisable. Salutes made with it are going to be quite bloody destructive. If you
have the space and the time to use it go for your life. But trying to use APAN for general salute use might cause you some trouble. I goes without saying that you shouldn't use
them for normal things as 'light and throw' salutes. These bastards would take an arm off :D .
So i'd say if you think it's worth the risk(ha! risk,what am i saying. Just about everyone here including me take big risks playing with Explosive things all the time) go for it.
Just be careful as always :p .
ShockWave November 2nd, 2002, 06:39 PM

maybe I missed some information about it but is it impossible that APAN is stonger then ANNM?
I think that APAN is very strong, much stronger then ANNM.
Test after test after test, APAN seems to have more power.
TNT has not enough oxygen and Ammonium Nitrate has too much, then there is the mix of these too which is called ammatol, (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is it possible that AP has not enough oxygen or something different or too much of something or maybe the AN !? so that the 2 together makes it stronger ?
NERV November 2nd, 2002, 07:17 PM

Yes AP dose have a negitive oxygen balence. Mixing with AN will boost the power, but I dont think it would give such a boost that it would be more powerful than ANNM. I
have heard from many diffrent sorces that ANNM was the most powerful AN explosive (althogh I still think that explosives like AN/MNT are more powerful). Of corse I could be
wrong mabey it is more powerful than ANNM.
[edit] spelling
[ December 12, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]
Anthony November 3rd, 2002, 09:21 AM

Look at the VoD of the components of APAN - AP approx 4500m/s AN approx 4000m/s. It's unlikely that the mixture is going to have a VoD much above either one of those,
and I'm guessing it's somehwhere in the middle.
ANNM on the other hand had a VoD - under the correct circumstances - of over 7000m/s, and it'd not like it's going to lack gas volume with AN in there.
xyz November 14th, 2002, 06:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Salutes made with it are going
to be quite bloody destructive. If you have the space and the time to use it go for your life. But trying to use APAN for general salute use might cause you some trouble. I goes
without saying that you shouldn't use them for normal things as 'light and throw' salutes. <hr /></blockquote>In my
opinion salutes are much more fun when they are "quite bloody destructive" as me and some other friends (also pyros) have had some interesting dreams involving salutes,
flowerpots, trees, plants, fenceposts, buckets, and oh I almost forgot... that signpost where 20g APAN was dropped down the pole... :D .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Koktail "ARSOVA"
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simply RED October 21st, 2002, 11:07 AM

This is my last device...
it is constructed by tw o bottles, one full w ith gasoline and one with 30%hydrogen peroxide. Actually i used 60% but it w ill not be available for you. with 30% woorks too.
You w rap the two bottles w ith tape to secure them to each other.
you take "UPSArine" small plastic container and fill it w ith KMnO4 and sulphur. w rap the upsa with tape to the bottles. The device is put in nylon bag with KMnO4.
1. inject 5ml glycerine in the upsa container
2 THROW IT!
............
I also believed it won't work...
it is an interesting experiment everyone can do...
mix 30% H2O2 and gasoline or diluter for paint in a beher glass, 10 ml H2O2 and 10ml gasoline. on the ground put some chrystals KMnO4. Leak the mixture on the ground!
IMMEDIATELY, gas cloud becomes to form!
This contains PURE oxigen and gas fumes!!!!!!!!!!!
ignite the gas from 5 meters by throw ing a match into it!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!
The H2O2 decomposes and produces heat and O2! the gas eveporates and forms cloud....
now immagine it w ith 1liter gas and 1 liter H2O2!!!!
1. it is better to throw against a wall, hitting it near the ground :)
2. with some paint diluters it works better than with gasoline.
I called the device cocktal ARSOVA
it produces blast to destroy the w indows in 20 meters and fireball 5 meters in diamater, 3 meters high w ith 2 beer bottles...
with these fucking computers here i have to edit the posts 100 times!!!
[ October 21, 2002, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: simply RED ]
Eliteforum October 21st, 2002, 02:29 PM

Sounds like something you'd see in a crapbook, oh and sig limit is 3 lines.
(Does my/your/whoever's sig have to be in English? :confused: )
PhRaZMAkInEtIcS October 21st, 2002, 02:42 PM

Simple RED could you please tell me w here you got your 60%H2O2 from because i am also from BG and i haven't seen any H2O2 w ith a concentratio highter than 30%.Not that
i w ant to buy it(30% suits me fine) but i just want to know where you got it from.
Don't get me w rong but don't you think your just waisting soo many usefull chemicals(not to forget the UPSARIN :) )for some simple fire
PS. I'm sorry my first post starts with a question
NERV October 21st, 2002, 03:49 PM

This really sounds like something out of the crapbook. I dont think that gasoline will break H2O2 down into Oxygen and hydrogen. Gasoline dosnt have the right chemical
properties to do so.
(someone with better knowlage in chemistry prove me w rong or right).
NoltaiR October 21st, 2002, 04:43 PM

Even if it is not from the crapbook(s), it might as well have been. What w ere you thinking simplyRED?
kingspaz October 21st, 2002, 05:38 PM

the KMNO4 decomposes the H2O2 i believe upon thrw oing and mixture of the chemicals.
it does sound like some crap book piece of shit BUT i think hes just pround to have invented somthing remotely useful. this could be useful for its larger destructive effect over
standard incendary weapons such as molotov cocktails. i think it could do with a diagram and some better explaination to make it more of an invention other than a text file.
simply red can you draw us up a picture to explain things better and to try and get some of your cred back?
edit: by the way i decided to leave this open because despite the complaints i think it has potential.
[ October 21, 2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
vulture October 21st, 2002, 05:50 PM

Directly mixing 60% H2O2 and gasoline with an emulgator might result in an detonatable mixture or maybe even something spontaneously
flammable. The H2 O 2is merely used for oxygen production here, it decomposes because of the KMnO4.
BTW, throwing KMnO4 powder into only 60% H 2O2 might already result in an explosion.
Switchblade October 21st, 2002, 08:11 PM

At high concentrations (I don't remember exactly, 80% and up I think)H2O2 becomes unstable and can explode all by itself. If, in tw o seperate bottles taped together, these
tw o chemicals were submitted to a shock wave powerful enough shatter the bottles, disperse/mix the liquids, and decompose the H2O2, the energy of the reactions w ould be
released quicker, making this more effective. If it a low cal/g explosive, or just to ensure ignition, I would add a small pouch of flash powder to the equation. I will try this this
weekend, so that instead of suggesting things to others I MIGHT be usefull.
nbk2000 October 21st, 2002, 10:09 PM

Vaseline will spontaneously ignite in contact w ith 100% oxygen, so gasoline exposed to a powerful oxidizer and pure oxygen should have no problems, especially with potassium
permanganate catalyzing the breakdown of the peroxide.
With the extra oxygen being supplied by the peroxide, the gasoline should be able to burn VERY quickly, and extra hot. :) Plus maybe be able to withstand attempts to put it
out with an extinguisher since it's oxygen supply is self contained.
Marvin October 22nd, 2002, 03:02 AM

"Vaseline will spontaneously ignite in contact w ith 100% oxygen"
Mr Cool said something similar recently, w here did this idea come from, it doesnt sound right, I assume it means at room temperature?
My understanding was vasoline was essentially an alkane, and there should be no reaction occuring w ith oxygen at room temp that could cause ignition....
Even unsaturated terpenes need something like chlorine to ignite unaided.
nbk2000 October 22nd, 2002, 04:22 AM

Vaseline is a petroleum product. They are readily oxidized. In the process, the reaction generates heat. If the oxidation is rapid enough, the heat builds up to ignition.
This is the cause of spontaneous combustion in greasy rags.
PhRaZMAkInEtIcS October 22nd, 2002, 08:45 AM

Well if you do it w ith 1L H202 and 1L Gasoline i don't think anyone w ould just want to throw a match at the cloud of oxygen and gasoline.Maybe you can leave something
burning next to it so it can ignite by itself.
Marvin October 22nd, 2002, 04:42 PM
Some petrolium products are easily oxidised, alkanes are not. They are stable to oxygen, halogens, oxidising agents and in the absence of free radicals nothing happens at all.
No oxidation even in tiny amounts, unlike for example linseed oil which is unsaturated and does oxidise in air. Ive checked the MSDS for vasoline and it contains nothing to
suggest it reacts w ith anything, no materials to avoid contact with, no polymerisation, non toxic, non carcinogenic and absolutly nothing in the fire/explosion hazard data section.
Everything suggests its completely stable in oxygen at RT. If spontaneously combustion in oxygen was a problem it should be on here. Since vasoline is a pharm product, its
well controlled and understood. I'm quite convinced there is no chance of it igniting in oxygen without an external cause. Do we know where the 'vasoline ignites in pure oxygen'
idea comes from?
Greasy rags are not commonly prone to igniting but it could happen. Grease can consist of a mixture of unsaturated lubricants w hich can be partially oxidised while in use as w ell
as solvents used to remove them, the dirty rag can contain possible catalysts... It could happen.
Switchblade October 22nd, 2002, 06:14 PM

My dad has a bottle of "Oxygen, Compressed" in our gararge he said he got from a hospital. Although it says in small print "Danger: Keep grease and oil aw ay." I filled balloon
from the tank, and squirt the gas onto a small blob of vaseline,- nothing. Then onto a puddle of sewing machine oil- nothing. Neither even warmed up. I put some oil and
vaseline into an empty coffee can, emptied another balloon's worth of gas into the bottle, closed the lid, and left it for 2 minutes. It still wasn't even warm. Even if the gas was
not 100% pure, it definatly was far above the atmosphere's concentration(burning sock test), and it should have reacted to some degree.
If the reaction at 100% oxygen generates enough heat to ignite oil or grease, even at the atmosphere's 20% it should at least be w arm.
[ October 22, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Switchblade ]
simply RED October 23rd, 2002, 06:27 AM

This is so destructive that i disputed w ith myself to post it or not :) . With two beer botles it produces an extreme blast (the last test was in abbandoned facility for pesticides
mixing, everything from w ood flew away, the concrete w as not demadged. The structure remained burning for 10 minutes. I injected the glycerine with medicine injection in the
upas and threw the device in a hole in the facaility 's wall run away and BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!
I must try it with 2liters 30% peroxide and 5 liters gas, it will be burst with 10 grams urea nitrate, the UN will just burst it, not ignite, the second 50 grams nitropenta or RDX and
al will blow the cloud :) everything will be with 300 meters wires and will be controlled from a tank trench. The experiment will cost 6 dolars (w ithout the second detonator).
You must try it with 10ml gas nad 10 ml peroxide, put some kmno4 on the ground leak the mixture on it, and after some seconds ignite the gas cloud remotely.
The good thing with this is that it is times more powerful in enclosed area. This handheld FAM bursting in a car will destroy it absolutely fully, no glass, no doors and everything
elese w ill burn.
The igniter with KMnO4 S and gly is very good and it flashes just on time.
The bad thing is that the device will be just molotov in very w indy conditions.
Hey. phr**** you are from BG, aren't you. GREETINGS, i thought we are extincted species here! Write me mail w ith more info about you.
And you can buy 60% peroxide in Varna near the old graves, there are 2 chem shops,also in sofia and plovdiv but don't know where?
nbk2000 October 23rd, 2002, 07:31 AM

Petroleum and oxygen will combust IF certain conditions are applied. That being high surface area, high heat retention, and presence of impurities (of an unspecified nature)
that act as catalysts to get the reaction going.
Obviously, the flame and heat from glycerine/Kmno4 will do the job.
Given the pure oxygen and gasoline vapors, it's a given that you're going to have one hell of a flash fire. :D
Have you thought about trying to detonate it using a compound det w/ booster? At the high % of peroxide you have, plus the fuel, it's practically a sprengel explosive. Also, you
can concentrate peroxide to 99% by freezing and using some simple chemical (that I can't remember the name of but the file is on the FTP somew here).
Mr Cool October 23rd, 2002, 08:01 AM

Marvin: I don't think I ever said vaseline will ignite in pure oxygen, or anything similar... please copy and paste w hat I said. I could have made a mistake, or you could be
mistaken, but it's remotely possible I suppose that someone's messing with my account. Better to be safe than sorry.
Unfortunately gasoline and H2O2 aren't miscible, so it'd be hard to detonate a mixture of them. It might be possible with a good emulsifying agent. Maybe a carboxylic acid or
ketone would work, they should be soluble in H2O2, and not as easily oxidisable as alcohols or most other polar fuels, so it should be less prone to spontaneous combustion.
Eliteforum October 23rd, 2002, 11:19 AM

Mr Cool, it wasn't you that said it. It w as NBK:
<blockquote>quote:< hr /> Vaseline will spontaneously
ignite in contact w ith 100% oxygen <hr />< /blockquote> Marvin:
<blockquote>quote:< hr /> "Vaseline w ill spontaneously
ignite in contact w ith 100% oxygen"
Mr Cool said something similar recently, w here did this idea come from... <hr />< /blockquote>
[ October 23, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
Marvin October 24th, 2002, 05:38 PM

I apologise unreservedly Mr Cool.
It w asnt you it was Jhonbus in the liquid oxygen thread in the chemistry section. I think 'Cool' and 'liquid air' must have shorted out somewhere, now about that brain
transplant.....
Jhonbus - "I was making my assumption based on reports of petroleum jelly spontaneously igniting in 100% O2 atmospheres"
I'm interested to know where these reports came from, the chemistry doesnt make sense to me.
nbk2000 October 25th, 2002, 12:10 PM

What's the time frame though? It could be constant exposure over months is required.

I dont know the timeframe, Ive failed to find anything on the web, w hich is hardly surprising. Ive been trying to think of something you could add to vasoline to make it more
reactive. Long chain alkanes are about as inert as carbon compounds get without fluorine.
I think if you had NO2, or acid chlorates in strong sunlight you might have something happening over a long period of time to make it reactive. Sunlight can initiate free radical
reactions, but unless you have processes w here they can multiply they w ill only happen very very slowly, and the sort of mixtures required are rather beyond the 'vasoline and
oxygen' premise. Maybe the reports w ere based on vasoline+ chlorate mixtures, w hich should be pretty damn stable with an antacid, but without, and add sunlight, and maybe
someone adding sulphur to make it more sensative.....
I dont see it happening unless you make the sort of mistakes that work w ithout vasoline. Short of high temperatures and the sort of free radical reactions that happen during
burning, I cant see how it might degrade at all, no functional groups, alkanes are abysmal acids so hydrogen will stay where it is. Graphite is more reactive than alkanes are at
room temp. Anything that attacks H-C sp3 bonds would attack the H-C surface layer on diamond, and how many reagents can boast that.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > O rganc peroxides
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oryp69 October 25th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 9 : 2 7 P M

i am doing a research project on organic peroxides for english class and if anyone knows of any books where i could find
information about them that would b a ppreciated...i have the chem istry of powder and explosives, i had the librarian order a
book called organic peroxides, but any other books would also be appreciated
i wouldn't be asking this if i could use the internet as a source, but it has to be all books, bcuz the teacher said the internet
has too much untruth ful information
Marvin October 25th , 2 0 0 2 , 1 1 : 1 4 P M

Your doing a project on organic peroxides for english class in the US?
Internet sources are unreliable, find as m uch internet informatio n as possible on the subject, and then find references that
back up that inform ation until it stands up by itself. The internet is a good springboard for that sort of thing.
Search this forum for existing inform ation, there is quite a bit.
W h e n t h e b o o k c o m e s O C R it and offer the pdf up for sacrifice, then m aybe they might possibly overlook this rather badly
organised and underresearched attempt to get other people to do your project for you <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Acetone peroxide,
Methyl Ethyl Ketone P eroxide,
Phorone Penta Peroxide,
HMT D
Have all been discussed, and those are only the ones I can remeber offhand.
Getting inform ation on acetic acid, and b e n z o i c a c i d b a s e d p e r o x i d e s s h o u l d b e e a s y i n a g o o d l i b r a r y .
binary mz Novem ber 1st, 2002, 04:16 PM

I've also been looking for inform ation on peroxides on the 'net and would appreciate if yo u could link your findings in here!
S o m ething I've always wondered is why MEKP hasnt bee n popular here ? its very easy to m ake ( i followed the post on here on
it but used hcl with better yields) and much more stable the AP. the only problem i've had with it is when it has soaked in to
s o m ething (m atch stick or wooden table) and ignited from a flame..inste ad of flaring up like AP it will detonate..if on a flat
surface it does whats expected and flares up. ive heard that its a little stronger than AP also...a friend is going to do some
e x p i r e m ents with it today and i'll post his findings in here..
kingspaz Novem ber 2nd, 2002, 08:55 AM

oryp 69, this topic isn't going anywhere, and barely relevent.
bina ry mz, it would be helpful to post the results in the MEKP topic unless that topic has been moved to the archives.
nbk2000 Novem ber 2nd, 2002, 09:15 AM

Christ!
It's almost like a gazelle (k3wL) walking up to a sleeping lion (NBK), prying the lions mouth open, and sticking it's head in. :)
It's so easy that the lion won't even bother with it, since it's beneath the lions dignity to do so.
Go elsewhere if you can't be b o t h e r e d t o r e a d t h e a b u n d a n t p o s t s o n t h e very subject you asked because you're TO O lazy to
be worth exp ending our time in replyin g to since it'd be lost on your stunted brain.
W e're not your Answe r-o-matic.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > U K Aceton e P e r o x i d e C h e m icals
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View Full Version : UK Acetone Peroxide Chemicals
AnthraX Novem ber 16th, 2002, 08:56 AM

This is A forum on Acetone Pe roxide chem icals. I My self find it very hard to get the Acid needed for AP. Ca n a n y o n e T e l l m e
where i can Order online:
Acetone
Acid and perhaps eve n a Scientific Therm ometer in the UK.
Y o u c a n a d d m e t o M S N m essenger if you can help m e with this thanks very much.
Eliteforum Novem ber 16th, 2002, 09:32 AM

Cya with your next nick nam e !
mongo blongo Novem ber 16th, 2002, 09:44 AM

For fuck sake!! :m a d :
You have got to be a fucking retard if you can't find this stuff!!
W hy do you think this is a forum on AP chem icals?
<sm all>[ Novem b e r 1 6 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 8 : 4 6 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : m o n g o b l o n g o ] < / s m a l l >
Mr Cool Novem ber 16th, 2002, 10:02 AM

Idiot...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Styphnate suitable primary?
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View Full Version : Lead Styphnate suitable primary?
HVD December 20th, 2002, 11:44 AM

Is there any reason why Lead Styphnate (extracted from rifle primers) could not be used as a primary in a detonator? Say in
place of HMTD or AP?
Surely it's easier to extract some from primers, and have a commercially made high purity compound than go to all the effort
of making, filtering and washing some homemeade (and maybe impure) primary explosive?
It's D.V. is around 4900 ms and HMTD is around 4500 ms (data from Mega's site) so it even sounds more powerful.
Anyway if anyone has any experiences making detonators with this stuff, especially if it was extracted from rifle primers, then
please post.
Thanks in advance
HVD
Mr Cool December 20th, 2002, 02:17 PM

It has quite a low energy, but I'm sure it could be used if you could safely open up primers.
mongo blongo December 20th, 2002, 02:30 PM

It also has good flame sensitivity. It is commonly mixed with Lead Azide for this purpose. It should work quite well but be
careful opening up those primers.
Helos December 20th, 2002, 04:29 PM

But a guess is that each primers contains very little of the explosive and therefore it is not an smart idea?
DBSP December 20th, 2002, 05:47 PM

It's a hell of a job but it can easily be done safely by drowning them in acetone before opening them.
I't nothing I'd recomend, better to put some effort in nutrolising you homemade stuff instead.
Microtek December 21st, 2002, 03:47 PM

Lead styphnate is quite easy to make from resorcinol; if anybody is interested I can go into details.
But before I do this, I must say that it is not at all suitable as primary. It does not initiate PETN if that explosive is pressed
even moderately, thus 1 gram lead styphnate did not initiate PETN pressed at 2000 psi. If you recall, I have made some tests
to find out if the product from acetone + HCl + H2O2 was DPPP or just AP. One of the tests was to use supposed DPPP as base
charge and lead styphnate as initiator and if less than about 5 mm3 styphnate was used, the base charge did not detonate.
green beret December 24th, 2002, 05:01 AM

I havent ever made lead styphnate, but I know for a fact that (australian) commercial dets. have PETN as a base charge with
ASA as the primary, ASA is a mixture of lead styphnate and aluminium, I dont know how much of ASA is used to set off the
PETN but I do know that the base charge of PETN is around 0.45 grams, depending on detonator strength. The ASA is a nice
lemon colour and cast into the det somehow, probably using a binder of some sort, it sparkles in the sun too. I also do not
know the ratio of Aluminium to Lead Styphnate, but I will try and find out.
This probably hasn't helped much but I thought you might like to know.
Mr Cool December 24th, 2002, 07:09 AM

ASA is Azide/Styphnate/Aluminium, so again the lead styphnate is just added to increase the flame sensitivity of the lead
azide. I can't remember what the aluminium is for...

Aluminium is added to increase initiation capacity, most likely by increasing explosion temperature. In the usual ASA mix, lead
azide is by far the major component - about 80 % if my memory serves.
zeocrash January 14th, 2003, 04:01 PM

the US army Blasting caps use lead styphnate in a 3 part series
__________________________
.......|########|@@@@@@@@@|
....1..|####2###|@@@@3@@@@|
_______|________|_________|
Part 1 is lead styphnate, that is easily ignited by an electric match or fuse.

part 2 is lead azide more powerful than part 1
part 3 is RDX designed to give out a large shockwave and garentee ignition
Now the only question i have now is where do i get magnesium styphnate from/how do i make it (its the only thing i havent
got)
[ January 14, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: zeocrash ]
stanfield January 14th, 2003, 05:13 PM

even in the Acros orgaics catalog (2000+ pages) I wasn't able to dig up this product ! it's a bitch to find...
I'm interrested too in lead styphnate but this bloody magnesium styphnate is the major problem !
bye !
[ January 14, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]
megalomania January 15th, 2003, 12:55 AM

If I am not mistaken you can make magnesium styphnate from a magnesium base and styphnic acid. Try mixing a solution
of styphnic acid with magnesium carbonate or hydroxide.

If you have nt noticed a synthe sis for styphnic acid can b e found over h ere:
<a href="http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/styphnic.htm" target="_blank">http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/

styphnic.htm</a>
Im soon going to get my hands on some resorcinol (200g) so I can test the preparation of SA.
I hope it will be worth of trying.
Microtek January 16th, 2003, 03:25 PM

The procedure on powerlabs is inferior. Try this instead:
- 1 part resorcinol is dissolved in 1 part warm water and 7 parts 62 % HNO3 is added while temp is kept between 35 and 40 C.
- This solution is added drop by drop with stirring to 20 parts of H2SO4 while temp is kept below 50 C.
- When addition is complete, the soln is left at room temp for 30 min with occasional stirring.
- Soln is drowned in 1.5-2 times its own volume of ice and water and the precipitated product is collected on filterpaper.
- The product needs to be washed carefully to be free from residual acids and oxidation products.
In my experience this is the best way to avoid oxidation and runaway and even so, some oxidation will take place and colour
the soln red or black. Trinitro resorcinol is very insoluble in water, not at all like picric acid, so more water can be used without
losing much product.
The conversion to lead styphnate goes as follows:
- 1.2 g TNR is suspended in 3.5 mL H2O and 0.42 g MgCO3 is added.
- Heat steadily to 60 C with stirring and after a minute at this temp, filter off any insoluble matter ( there won't be any if the
synth has been done carefully ). (I)
- Prepare a soln of 1.66 g Pb(NO3)2 in 3.5 mL H2O. (II)
- Heat (I) to 80 C and add one drop of HNO3 62 %.
- Add (II) to (I) dropwise with stirring while keeping the temp at 80 C
- When addition is complete, filter off the product and wash thoroughly.
Note that all azides react with acid to form gaseous HN3 so if the styphnate is to be used with lead azide steps need to be
taken to avoid this.
zeocrash January 16th, 2003, 03:36 PM

ok
only 1 question
where can i find/how can i make rescorcinol
IPN January 16th, 2003, 03:57 PM

Message edited for not revealing a chem.supplier
to the kewls.
[ January 17, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: IPN ]
davismn February 8th, 2003, 06:47 PM

I just wanted to say that the procedure presented by Microtek is far better than powerlabs. My yield was almost twice as good
as before using his procedure.
Also I didnt have any magnesium carbonate around to make the magnesium stynphnate intermidiate, so I decided to
nuetralize it with excess ammonia. The solution heated up a bit so I left it alone for a night. The next morning I had huge
crystals of ammonium stynphate on the bottom of my beaker. In order to get them to redissolve I heated the solution and
then added lead nitrate. Immedietly I got a milky brown precipitate. I filtered the precipitate, dried it, and sure enough it was
lead stymphate(when I took a lighter to a small portion of it, there was a big pop followed by a puff of smoke). So any one
who doest want to use the magnesium stynphate intermidiate, ammonium stynphate is a viable alternative.
By the way Im a first time poster so I would just like to add that Ive been enjoying the inteligent conversations that have gone
here for some time, keep up the good work!
Mr Cool February 9th, 2003, 08:44 AM

That has to be the first time I've come accross something where adding a hydroxyl group decreases solubility in water, from
TNP -> TNR.
Resorcinol can be found in a two-part glue, the other part being mainly paraformaldehyde. It's commonly used for boat repair
I think, it's a wood glue.
I'll try that method with phenol to make TNP Microtek, as I always get a fair amount of oxidation with my current method.
Phenol should be less prone to oxidation than resorcinol...
IPN February 20th, 2003, 01:28 PM

Microtek:
That procedure you described seemed to work really well; I had a good yield from 5g resorcinol, 35ml 60% nitric acid and
100ml 98% sulphuric acid.
Tomorrow I will make some lead styphnate from it. I will share the results then.
Btw. Is it ok, if my styphnic acid is dark red?
[ February 21, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: IPN ]
Microtek February 21st, 2003, 12:43 PM

Yes, mine is too. I think it is an oxidation product that gives that red colour and it has such a strong dyeing effect that it is
practically impossible to was the colour away. You'll be dissolving the TNR anyway when making lead styphnate.
IPN February 21st, 2003, 04:05 PM

Yes I was just worrying if there went anything wrong with my synth.
I must confess that i didn't add the resorcinol/HNO3 mix very slowly (about 2ml per 10sec).
Well I got 6,5g TNR from 5g resorcinol, not too bad!
Oh and a little question, can I make lead nitrate from lead oxide.
I guess it would be like adding NaNO3 solution to lead oxide and then filtering.
Or could the lead styphanate be made by simply mixing the lead oxide and TNR. I might be wrong though.
kingspaz February 21st, 2003, 05:55 PM

IPN, you'd have to add the lead oxide to dilute HNO3 and then evapourate the solution down to 1/4 of the original volume,
then filter.
PbO + 2HNO3 ---> Pb(NO3)2 + H2O
Microtek February 22nd, 2003, 09:13 AM

Pb(NO3)2 is very easy to make. Simply add some lead to 50-70 % HNO3 and heat to 50-60 C to get the reaction started. Lots
of NOx will be evolved ( this can't be helped as the HNO3 nitrogen must be reduced in order to oxidize the free lead to Pb(II)
). Be sure to check the reaction often and be sure that the container is large enough to prevent the acid to spill out during the
rather effervescent reaction.
If the reaction subsides, you may need to heat more or to add more acid. White precipitate will begin forming rather quickly as
lead nitrate is rather insoluble in nitric acid, but don't stop the reaction before all the metallic lead has been dissolved. Then
just keep boiling it until all the acid and water has evaporated ( but don't let the temp rise to above, say, 150 C ), let it cool
down and add some alcohol to wash the product. Filter and wash again a few times. After drying you will have quite pure lead
nitrate.
I think the PbO + 2 NH4NO3 --> Pb(NO3)2 + 2 NH3 + H2O reaction will give negligible amounts of lead nitrate ( as the
insolubility of PbO will drive the equilibrium the other way, perhaps forming Pb(OH)2 ), but PbO + HNO3 will probably work.
IPN February 22nd, 2003, 10:54 AM

I tried the PbO + 2HNO3 method.
When I added the HNO3 (which I have no more :( ) the PbO turned black and when I added some water to precipitate the lead
nitrate it still remained black. No white stuff.
I wonder if I did something wrong?
Microtek February 23rd, 2003, 05:43 AM

Water will not precipitate lead nitrate ! It is highly soluble which is why it is suitable for the reaction. You could also use lead
acetate which is also water soluble.
Sarevok February 23rd, 2003, 06:19 AM

Posted by IPN:
Helvetica">I tried the PbO + 2HNO3 method. When I added the HNO3 (which I have no more) the PbO turned black and when
I added some water to precipitate the lead nitrate it still remained black. No white stuff.
I wonder if I did something wrong?<hr /></blockquote>Next time try
to use Pb instead of PbO. Did your HNO3 were concentrated? As I know, for this reaction the HNO3
needs to be concentrated, but I can be wrong... I never used precious Nitric Acid to make Lead Nitrate. :rolleyes:
IPN February 23rd, 2003, 06:29 AM

My HNO3 was 60%.
Well now I have a good amount of lead nitrate drying.

Here is what I did:
I filtered the solution after a little heating and boiled the filtrate to 1/4 original volume and took it outside to allow it to cool
and then filtered and washed several times with alcohol.
-----------------------------------------------
Ok. Now I have about 1g of what I believe is lead styphnate and I have to say it is not very good at detonating anything exept
HMTD (btw. my lead styphnate is yellow, should it be red?).
Im still drying my ammonium styphnate to compare it to ammonium picrate.

-----------------------------------------------
A m m onium styphnate is not worth to try. It d idn t detonate with 1,5g HMTD. It did burn th ough.
[ February 25, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: IPN ]
IPN February 27th, 2003, 02:48 PM

I had an accident few minutes ago.
I had some lead styphn ate prob ably spilled on my lab be nch (I don t kno w how) . I placed a small amount of HMTD to the
corner of the bench (I like it when it burns with that yellow/red flame) and lighted it with a lighter without knowing that there
was that lead styphnate and BANG!! The next thing I noticed was that my hand was universally black and my ears were ringing.
I had no idea how that styphnate got on the bench but I will never do anything like that again!
In fact no w when I start to think of it I don t consider it as an accident but rath er an ed ucation, because now I now that my
lead styphnate worked and I have to be careful with that.
But this certainly raised my respect to explosives.
Btw. does anyone now what are the products from the detonation of lead styphnate?
[ February 27, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: IPN ]
a_bab February 28th, 2003, 04:39 AM

Your hand became black because of the lead oxide and perhaps because of the unreacted carbon, although I cannot be sure.
[ February 28, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: a_bab ]
Scorpion March 14th, 2003, 05:52 PM

Hey IPN the Lucky Hand!
I think it was you who asked about the color of the crystaline lead styphnate...
Well, searching over a very serious source on the subject I've found two diffrent kinds of Lead Styphnate, one is the yellow
most common and stable form, which is the one you gotten, but there also exist a red form (more unstable) of LS which is
more sensitive to shock and friction.
Procedure for the red LS:
Place 800 ml of water into a beaker, while rapidly stirring the water, 24.4 grams of styphnic acid, and then 16 grams of sodium
hydroxide. Then, heat the mixture to 7 Celsius while stirring. Then dissolve 70 grams of lead nitrate into 700 ml of water.
Thereafter, place the heated styphnic acid/sodium hydroxide into a dropping funnel, and then slowly add, drop-wise, drop by
drop styphnic acid/sodium hydroxide mixture into the lead nitrate solution while stirring the lead nitrate. Now, in the beginning,
slowly add the acid/hydroxide mixture very slowly drop-by-drop until a small amount of an amorphous yellow precipitate forms.
When this happens, stop the addition, and allow this amorphous yellow solid to crystallize as reddish-brown diamond shaped
crystals. Where upon, add the acid/hydroxide mixture at a much faster pace, and continue the addition until all the mixture
has been added. During the whole operation, stir the lead nitrate solution. After the addition , continue to stir the reaction
mixture for 20 minutes, and then filter-off the precipitated lead styphnate. Allow it to cool to room temperature, and then wash
with 200 ml of cold water, followed by vacuum drying or air-drying.
Comparing the two procedures (Yellow form vs. Red form) I see that the key on getting the red form of LS is the grade of
dilution of the lead nitrate solution. In the case of the red modification the lead nitrate solution is less dilute. (i.e.: In the
preparation of the yellow form 100 grams of lead nitrate were diluted in 2500 ml of water, against 70 grams of lead nitrate
diluted in 700 ml of water for the red modification)
[ March 15, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Scorpion ]
shooter3 March 14th, 2003, 10:14 PM

I think you are all overlooking one important use of lead styph. If you want to use any kind of piezo crystal initiator, you would
definatly want LS on the bridge wire(or spark gap). It's a sure fire way(pun intended) of getting things going.
[ March 14, 2003, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: shooter3 ]
akinrog November 14th, 2003, 03:51 PM

Dear Friends,
This is my first post. I hope nobody flares me up. But I would like to give an information about a procedure I saw somewhere
which I cannot remember.
As you may know, picric acid may be prepared by oxynitration (I don't know exact word in English but it must be somewhat like
oxynitration) of Benzen in the precence of mercury as catalyst. While looking at my notes, I saw a procedure which uses a
similary oxynitration but of toluene into styphnic acid. But I have no means to verify if it's true. If this procedure is genuine,
then preparation of styphnic acid shall become easier and more practical.
I hope this comment /bit of info is useful for this discussion.
Regards,
Rosco Bodine November 22nd, 2003, 06:35 PM

Styphnic Acid will not result from the oxynitration of toluene .
The product from the oxynitration of toluene will be trinitrocresol
not trinitroresorcinol . Similar explosive salts can be made from
trinitrocresol , but they are likely less powerful in comparison ,
although I am not certain about this .
Lead Styphnate has a lot of potential power but its self accelleration
is poor so its critical mass to high order detonate is several grams
with strong confinement . See GB139811 for relevant information
on use of lead styphnate as a single component detonator .
Mixing a more rapid self accellerating primary with the lead styphnate
or using as a top charge to kick the lead styphnate rapidly to high order
velocity is more economical . See GB142823 for details .
A mixture of 1 part lead azide with 2 parts lead styphnate is quite powerful .
other patents regarding lead styphnate are below
US1443328 original patent

US1999728
US2150653
US2295104
US2589703
US3041361
US3953486
GB187012
EP0070932
akinrog January 22nd, 2004, 09:36 PM

Rosco Bodine:
You might be right. As I stated in my previous post, I have no means to verify it. However, I found the following link on
styphnic acid synthesis during my google search. Hope this helps.
Regards
http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/styphnic.htm
Sir Dudalot January 23rd, 2004, 12:57 AM

I've used rifle primers for detonators before. To extract the lead azide/styphnate I "crimped" (can't really think of the word)
them then pulled out the now loose anvil with a knife. After that I just scraped out the LA/LS. I always used it to initiate ETN in
my dreams. I'd open 15 primers to detonate the ETN. It worked the first three times then had one failure so 20 should be
more consistent. I can't see why it's that hard to get the stuff out. It was time consuming as hell, but simple. I just used a pair
of pliers to smash the circle into an ellipse then smashed it back into a circle and the anvil would loosen up enough to pry it
out easily.
blindreeper February 23rd, 2004, 06:45 AM

I have done a pictorial on extrating lead styphnate from rifle primers. http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/LS.html
How much lead styphnate do think would be enough to initiate say, picric acid? I was thinking this would be a very powerful and
stable cap; LS and TNP.
HarmonyWave March 2nd, 2004, 09:13 AM

I've having some difficulties with the TNR synthesis given by Microtek.
Dissolving the resorcinol(it was 5g) in hot water, no problem of course.
But the drop-by-drop addition of 35mL 62% HNO3 gets out of control every time - tried two times.
At some point in the addition i experience runaway - a kind of sudden splattering effekt of black-n-red soln(assume traces of
TNR and oxidation-products?) and a big cloud of NOx...
The temperature was kept between 30 and 40deg as written by Microtek (actually 34-36 at all time).
Anyone experienced the same? Sugestions to what i may be doing wrong.

Thanks
New poster. Be gentle.
Microtek March 2nd, 2004, 01:56 PM

Firstly, if you get runaway, reduce the batch size. Secondly, if one part is 5 grams then 7 parts is 35 grams which corresponds
to ca. 25 mL 62 % HNO3.
Did you agitate the resorcinol solution properly as you were adding the HNO3 ?
HarmonyWave March 2nd, 2004, 06:42 PM

Well i gave it a occasionel swirl.. dont know if that is sufficient?
The resorcinol/HNO3 mix seems odd to me. The first time i tried, i did actually add all the HNO3 without a problem.
I watched it for a few mins, and no change in temperature was observed. After some longer time(5mins perhaps), right before
i were to add it to H2SO4, it "blew up" as described before. Meaning great temperature rise in almost no time...
After the second "runaway" i did collect water insoluble material, a red powder when washed and dried, most likely TNR?, but i
would very much like to control the reaction.
Microtek March 3rd, 2004, 08:22 AM

The reason for the runaway reaction is that resorcinol, like phenol, is very active towards electrophilic substitution such as
nitration. When HNO3 is added too fast, the heat released by the reaction accelerates the reaction even further. This feedback
loop continues and, as the temperature rises, oxidation begins to dominate over nitration. This releases the clouds of NOx
and destroys your product and reactants.
The idea is to add a little HNO3 at a time and then allow the resorcinol to react with what has been added before adding more.
This way the produced heat has time to dissipate before the temperature rises too much.
If you add the HNO3 dropwise but without adequate agitation, it will not be able to contact the resorcinol properly and thus will
not be able to react fast enough to be mostly spent by the time you add the next portion.
This means that there is a build up of HNO3 in the mix. The reaction will be slow to start but it will eventually react, particularly
at the interface between the "HNO3 regions" and the "resorcinol regions". This reaction will evolve heat and the temperature
differences will cause turbulence which will mix the reactants quite effectively.
This will cause a massive acceleration of the reaction - a runaway.
So, in short you must stir it much more effectively. Constant swirling will do the trick, but if you can get your hands on a stirring
magnet, you can improvise a magnetic stirrer by mounting a bar magnet on a computer cooling fan.
The addition of the HNO3 can be done fairly rapidly if your agitation is good enough, for instance by constantly swirling the
flask with the resorcinol solution and adding the HNO3 in small portions.
peppovsky July 19th, 2007, 03:06 PM

I also ran into runaways and splatters, exactly like HarmonyWave describes, in my two attempts of the synth - but I used a
magnetic stirrer when adding the HNO3 to the water/resorcinol mixture - so one can't say there wasn't enough agitation. Also, I
did add the HNO3 dropwise, and kept the temp in the 35-40 C the entire time. Are you sure that the problem is the lack of
agitation? couldn't it be something else?
Charles Owlen Picket July 20th, 2007, 11:58 AM

Well he made that comment back 3 years ago so don't expect an answer too soon.....but the "nitrite" method eliminates that
possibility. HOWEVER nitration of phenols are a vigorous reaction and much NO is involved....could that have been mistaken
for a run-a-way????
This is a standard 2 step process wherein dinitroresorcinol monohydrate is first obtained and then utilizing dilute HNO3 (40%)
brought to completion. This was the process used by the Western Cartridge Company, 10 November, 1942; patent available
via USPO.
Note: highest level of temp should be 30 C during final phase. Patent warns of any temp in excess. The starting temp for the
monhydrate should be 0 C. Basically the synth should be under 5 C during lab-level production.
Another dinitroso intermediate production method utilizing sodium NITRITE can be found from British patents via David
Anthony Salter & Robert John James Simkins, application filed 30 May, 1973. This one involved high temps (80-90 C).....I
have seen some of these synths and they are very tame & managable and the resultant material, quite spectacular in both
yield and crystal construction.
These use dilute HNO3 and I would imagine you would need to WORK to produce a run-a-way.
nbk2000 July 20th, 2007, 05:44 PM

Microtek is still around, just lurking now mostly, so he may reply if he wants to.
peppovsky July 22nd, 2007, 06:10 AM

I was aiming towards an answer, I didn't really mind who would give it ;)
What I experienced was an acid splatter. In both times, when I finished adding the HNO3 to the water/Resorcinol solution, the
temperature raised quickly a few minutes later (actually, in the second time it raised less then a minute after), and then the
mixture was spitted all over the area, quite violently. It's a shit to clean, btw.
Can you please specify the patent numbers of those mentioned? I couldn't find them by keywords and date of submission. It
would be quite helpful.
Also, do you advice to keep the temperature below 30 deg C the entire (62%) HNO3 addition?
Charles Owlen Picket July 22nd, 2007, 03:23 PM
The material was application filings; so check the applications rather than the granted patents. I have worked with several
styphnic acid synths and had success with most. However I would work with low temps if you are really getting splatter.....and
look for contaminants as well.
Frankly I have not dealt with that issue. But I do remember there had been varieties of resorcinol available from needle
crystals to rough chunky material.
The starting configuration of a material to be nitrated may have an effect on the process / outcome. Sighted source material is
easily obtainable via Legard's books from the FTP (Prepretory Manual of Explos, etc).
Resorcinol is a quickly nitrated material; drop the temp WAY down and I'll bet you do fine.
Enkidu July 24th, 2007, 03:52 AM

Temperature is a tricky thing. You must know the reaction as the literature describes it, but hands on experience is often
necessary to tweak the reaction's performance. Be wary of keeping your temperature too low. If it's too low, you can have a
bunch of unreacted nitric acid in your reaction vessel. Then, if you add any amount of heat (or simply the exothermic reaction
begins in earnest), you end up with an unstoppable, increasing reaction rate (i.e., a runaway).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > flash
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ironworker D e c e m ber 28th, 2002, 10:20 PM

b a c k a r o u n d 1 9 7 8 . . I m a d e u p a few tu be salutes using..clorate/sulpher/400 meshAL..for the 4th of july. Th ese were 1" od
tubes about 3" long or so..heavy walled..som etim e the following l a t e s u m m er..alm osyt a year later..I was m oving stuff around
i n t h e b a s e m e n t . . a n d l o a n d b e h o l d . . I f o u n d a c o m p l e t e t u b e s a l u t e . . a l l s q u i s h y . . f r o m t h e d a m p b a s e m e n t . . b e h i n d m y work
bench..m y first thought was..put it in a bucket of water..but I thought better of it..let it dry and shot it off..went off like a
normal salute..even though this clorate /sulpher/al salu te didnt go off..let this be a lession to us..check youre work station!!
..why didnt it go off for a year in the dam p atm o s p h e r e o f f m y m o l d y b a s e m ent in michigan?..I ha ve no clue..but i think alot
of the info on these two ingredients..clorates and sulpher..has been dem onized as to sensitivity..a n d I ' v e c o m e t o t h e
conclusion..the shit will spontaneously explode..when it damn well pleases...not b efore..no matter what you do to it....I've
t a k e n a h a m m e r t o t h e s e f l a s h c o m p o unds on cem e n t . . a n d g o t t e n n o t h i n g o n s e veral occasions..but on others..ham mer to
anvil on a few grains..got a nice thum p..thought you guys would get a kick out of this
zaibatsu D e c e m ber 28th, 2002, 10:30 PM

W hatever...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Interesting idea for foam explosive
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xyz January 18th, 2003, 10:49 PM

Yesterday I was thinking about a demonstration that my Chemistry teacher did a while ago where he put a small amount of 30% H2O2 in the bottom of a graduated cylinder,
added a squirt of dishwashing liquid, and then dumped a teaspoonful of Potassium Dichromate into the mixture. In a few seconds there was a column of foam made from
oxygen bubbles pouring out of the top of the cylinder.
I was thinking that you could take some conc. H2O2 and add dishwashing liquid to it, then add a suitable catalyst and some Calcium Carbide so that you soon had a lot of
foam made from Oxygen/Acetylene pouring all over the place <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . You would then ignite the foam when no more was
being produced.
This could be scaled up to fill a room with explosive foam as it produces many times it's volume in foam. If you used KMnO4 as your catalyst then you could add Glycerine to
the H2O2 so that ignition would occur spontaneously after the room had been filled.
I would like to try this but I am unable to get Calcium Carbide.
[ January 18, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]
nbk2000 January 19th, 2003, 12:46 AM

You could add the peroxide to the carbide, with a little rust added in to break down the peroxide, and the remaining water would decompose the carbide into acetylene. No
need for permanganate.
Also, dish soap isn't the best things for long lasting bubbles. Polymeric bubble mix is better since that would retain the gas for much longer than aqueous foam would, allowing
you more time to blow the gas mix.
For the most effective ignition, you'd want a small explosive charge loaded with incendiary material that'll ignite the foam from as many places at once as possible. Otherwise it
may just rapidly burn, rather than violently explode.
You'd also need to figure out how to react the peroxide and carbide at the proper rates to ensure a suitably explosive mix, since you can't depend on the averaging of the two
products to be the proper ration since each bubble would be like a mini-ballon of gas, each of which might have differing ratios of gas.

The permanganate was to catalyse the decomposition of the H2O2 and had nothing to do with the carbide, but you would mix them together and then add them to the H2O2
so that both gases started forming at the same time.
The foam in the demonstration lasted a long time without the bubbles bursting and the bubbles were very small. Isn't Glycerine supposed to make good bubbles?
It would probably be possible to alter how finely powdered the catalyst and the Calcium Carbide were so that the gas formed at the right rates.
[ January 19, 2003, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: xyz ]
Genital-Warfare January 25th, 2003, 12:11 AM

The soap holds the bubbles and the other agent, in my case, baking soda forms them, thats why they are so small.
CTR
Zach January 25th, 2003, 01:42 PM

"The soap holds the bubbles and the other agent, in my case, baking soda forms them, thats why they are so small."
I don't at all understand what you are trying to say. please clarify
NickSG January 25th, 2003, 09:56 PM

I might be wrong, but what he might be tring to say it becuase baking soda is being used, it doesnt produce enough gases to make the bubbles very large. Agian, I might be
wrong, I am not sure.
[ January 25, 2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: NickSG ]
VX January 25th, 2003, 10:26 PM

xyz, good plan. However you would not be able to use the KMnO4/Glycerine to ignite the mix anyway because it would be very diluted with water, far too much so to ever
cause ignition. However the addition of KMnO4 would cause purple foam, far more fun than just plain old white <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
A good plan may be to use a reasonably sized HE charge to detonate the foam increasing the chances of a FAE (Detonation of the gasses) instead of a huge fireball(simple
combustion). Depends on the effect that you want I suppose.

Genital Warfare, what has baking soda got to do with any of this?
I think you may have baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, forms bubbles of CO2 on contact with acids) confused with calcium carbide (forms bubbles of acetylene on contact with
water). Know your chems!
VX, you could also have yellow foam if you use potassium dichromate as your catalyst.
[ January 25, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: xyz ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Decomp of Acetone Peroxide, a journal
article
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megalomania February 11th, 2003, 01:36 AM

Decomposition of a Multi-Peroxidic Compound:
Triacetone Triperoxide (TATP)
It would appear word is catching on in professional circles about the highly versatile and easily improvised acetone peroxide.
Consider this recent journal article from Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics. I am sure many will find some enjoyment from a
professionally produced tidbit where so few exist especially when this article gives a modern method of AP (henceforth TATP)
synthesis! I am especially eager to get my hands on references 17 and 18, although they probably say much the same. If
anyone would like to get those be my guest as I am unsure when next I will be getting by the library. We at least now have a
definitive name to call this stuff, TATP. There are many graphics and charts that go along with this showing detailed
decomposition mechanisms and pathways for both TATP and DATP which only members of the FTP will get if they download the
original. See the file "JOPEP vol 27 iss 4 decomp of acetone peroxide.pdf" on the FTP.
They were nice enough even to include NMR spectra data. I have been planning to run some tests myself once I next get
access to the 1 GHz research grade NMR (and a finer use of a $30 million machine there never could be :) ), so it's nice to
know what to look for.
Summary
The thermal decomposition of triacetone triperoxide (TATP)
was investigated over the temperature range 151 to 230_C and
found to be first order out to a high degree of conversion. Arrhenius
parameters were calculated: activation energy, 151 kJ/mol
and pre-exponential factor, 3.75_1013 s_1. Under all conditions
the principle decomposition products were acetone (about 2 mole
per mole TATP in the gas -phase and 2.5 } 2.6 mole per mole in
condensed-phase) and carbon dioxide. Minor products included
some ascribed to reactions of methyl radical: ethane, methanol,
2-butanone, ethyl acetate; these increased at high temperature.
Methyl acetate and acetic acid were also formed in the decomposition
of neat TATP; the former was more evident in the gasphase
decompositions (151 _C and 230_C) and the latter in the
condensed-phase decompositions (151 _C). The decomposition of
TATP in condensed-phase or in hydrogen-donating solvents
enhanced acetone production, suppressed CO2 production, and
slightly in creased the rate co nstant (a factor of 2
} 3). All
observations were interpreted in terms of decomposition pathways
initiated by O_O homolysis.
1 Introduction
Peroxides have awide commercial use as bleaching agents
and polymerization catalysts(1).Due to the weakO_Obond
peroxides undergo facile thermal decomposition to produce
radicals. Many peroxides are shock sensitive and their
overall decompositions are exothermic so that special
handling precautions must be taken(2,3). Depending on the
molecular stoichiometry of the peroxide, its decomposition
may be explosive. Most peroxides, such as the commonly
used dibenzoyl peroxide or di-t-butyl peroxide, contain too
much carbon to be true explosives; but they have been rated
as having TNTequivalence of 25% and 30%, respectively(4).
On the other hand, the stoichiometry of hydrogen peroxide
is perfect to allow it to act as an explosive; albeit, it does so
only in concentrations exceeding those at which it is
commonly available(5). This study examines the decomposition
behavior of multi-peroxidic triacetone triperoxide
(TATP) and compares it with that of diacetone diperoxide
(DADP), both of which exhibit explosive behavior. In
recent yearsTATP has been used as an improvised explosive
because its precursor chemicals are readily obtained and its
synthesis is straightforward. However, it is frequently
prepared in admixture with diacetone diperoxide
(DADP), and this mixture readily undergoes accidental
initiation(6).
The alkyl cyclic diperoxides have been the subject of
mechanistic studies since the 1970s(7,8). Concerted decomposition
has been considered because luminescence at
435 nm was observed in the thermolysis of gaseous DADP
which could indicate a concerted electrocyclic reaction
yielding acetone in an excited singlet state(9), but stepwise
decomposition is usually postulated. RecentAM1 molecular
orbital calculations on DADP(10) indicated that C_O
scission (Figure 1, route 3) is only slightly more energetic
than that of O_O, but O_O homolysis (Figure 1, route 2) is
the generally accepted mechanism. Following initial O_O
homolysis, both C_O and C_C bond scission have been
suggested as routes to products (Figure 1 route 2 a and b).
There have been several studies on series of diperoxides.
McCullough et al. found that the yield of ketone from cyclic
diperoxides (R2COO)2 decreased as the stability of the
radical fragment R. increased, thus, making radical reactions
more important. Diacetone diperoxide decomposed
to acetone (_68%), acetic acid, carbon dioxide and ethane;
and since the thermolysis was performed in benzene,
toluene and biphenyl were also observed(8). Cafferata et al.
reported that the decompositions of various diperoxides in a
variety of solvents were first-order to about50%decomposition(
11-13). Since the rate constants were generally independent
of initial concentration and solvent effects, they
concluded the first decomposition step was O_O bond
homolysis. Plotting _H versus _S showed that five diperoxides
fit an isokinetic relationship, but DADP did not(11).
Furthermore, at elevated temperatures DADP decomposition
exhibited linear dependence on the initial concentration
of DADP suggesting induced decomposition(12). In
addition, the decomposition rate of DADP exhibited a
degree of solvent dependence not observed with the other
cyclic diperoxides(13). This latter observation was interpreted
as adduct formation between the peroxide and the
solvent. This is important with DADP due to its relatively
low steric hinderance. Decomposition products of DADP
have been reported as acetone in the gas-phase decomposition(
9) and acetone, methyl isopropyl ether, and oxygen
in benzene solution(12).
The decomposition of few cyclic triperoxides have been
studied: tricyclohexylidene triperoxide(14), diethyl ketone
cyclic triperoxide(15) and TATP in solution(16). The decomposition
of TATP in toluene was found to be first-order and
independent of initial TATP concentration out to 78%
conversion. The authors concluded the decomposition
included no second-order processes which would induce
decomposition; however, they did note that toluene would
be a good trap for radicals(16). This study examines the
decomposition of neat TATP as the first step to assessing the
hazards associated with explosive peroxides.
2 Experimental Section
2.1 Sample Preparation
Preparation of TATP followed the method of Milas with
modifications as follows: a 100 mL round bottom flask was
charged at room temperature with 5 mL of acetone and
5 mL of 35% hydrogen peroxide(17,18). The flask was
immersed in a dry ice bath; and when the mixture reached
-20_C, 3 mL of sulfuric acid was added dropwise taking
care to maintain the temperature below -10 _C. Addition of
acid typically took 30 minutes; to hurry the process was to
invite a violent event which in one case cracked a shatterproof
shield and the Corning stirrer/hot plate top. The
reaction was considered complete when further addition of
acid did not evoke violent bubbling. This usually required
the entire 3 mL of acid. After the acid had been added, and
while the mixture was still cold, 20 mL of methylene
chloride were added. The resulting solution was transferred
to a separatory funnel and allowed to warm to room
temperature. The remaining H2SO4 was removed by
washing three times with distilled water. TATP was
separated from the methylene chloride by allowing the
solvent to evaporate as the solution sat in the hood
overnight. The isolated TATP was re-crystallized in methanol,
resulting in 0.649 g (13% yield) of white crystals with
melting p oint of 95 }
96_C. P oor yield may be a result of h igh
volatility; we observed that TATP sublimes at the rate of
about 0.9% per hour.
1H-NMR(400 MHz, CDCl3) _ 1.43 (s); 13C-NMR
(100 MHz, CDCl3) _ 21.4 (CH3), 107.5 (ring C).
GC/MS using Finnigan TSQ 700 triple-stage: CI (methane):
223 (M_1). EI 222 (P); 117 {HOO[C(CH3)2]2};
101{HO[C(CH3)2]2}; 75 [HOOC(CH3)2]; 59 [HOC(CH3)2];
43 [CH(CH3)2].
2.2 Thermal Analysis

A TA Instruments Model 2910 Differential Scanning
Calorimeter (DSC) was operated under nitrogen flow and
calibrated against indium (m.p. 156.60 _C, _Hf 28.5 J/g).
The TATP samples (0.1 to 0.4 mg) were sealed in capillary
tubes (1.5 mm O.D., 0.28 mm wall thickness, and 8 mm
length) which were held in aluminum cradles(19). Thermo-
grams of the samples were recorded from 40_C to 500_C,
generally at a ramp rate of 20_C/min. The exothermic peak
maximum temperature was used to indicate the relative
stability of samples. For isothermal kinetics studies, samples
(0.1
} 0.6 mg) were sealed in glass capilla ry tubes of various
sizes. Primarily tubes of dimensions 2 mm I.D._50 mm
(150 _L volume) were used, but in some experiments the
surface area and vo lume of the tube were purpos ely varie d }
5 mm_50 mm (1 mL) and 1 mm_50 mm (25 _L). In one
set of experiments 3 mg TATP samples were sealed in 25 _L
ampoules to ensure reaction occurred in the condensed
phase. Generally samples were sealed under air, but we
found no difference in the product distribution whether
samples were sealed under vacuum rather than air.
Thermolyses at 150_C were conducted in an oven
(_/_1_C), while those at higher temperatures were
performed in a molten metal bath.
2.3 Gas Chromatography/Electron Capture Detector

(GC/ECD)
After thermolysis the sample tubeswere rinsedwith acetone
and volumes were adjusted to 10 mL. To assess TATP remaining,
a 1 _L aliquot of solution was injected via a Hewlett
Packard (HP) 6890 auto-sampler into an HP 5890 series
II GC with DB-5MS megabore column (6 m_0.53 mm)
and ECD detector. Helium was used as carrier gas, and
nitrogen as anode purge gas for the detector. The injector
temperature was 165_C; the detector temperature, 300_C;
the oven was programmed to run at an initial temperature of
50_C for two minutes, then ramped at 20 _C/min to a final
temperature of 280_C where it was held 3.5 minutes.
2.4 Analysis of Gaseous Decomposition Products
Complete thermolysis of TATP left no visible residue.
Decomposition gases were analyzed by gas chromatography/
mass spectrometry (GC/MS). An HP 5890 GC, equipped
with model 5971 electron impact mass selective
detector, was run in scan mode (mass range 12 to 200)
with a threshold of 150 and a sampling of 2 (3.5 scans/s).
Helium was used as the carrier gas, and theGCcolumnwas a
PoraPLOT Q (0.25 mm diameter_25 mm length) purchased
from Chrompack. The injector temperature was
100_C; the detector temperature, 190_C; the oven was
programmed to sit for 5 minutes at _80 _C, then ramped at
15_C/min to a final temperature of 190_C where it was held
10 minutes(20). The sealed samples were injected into the
GC by placing them in a Nalgene (I.D. 1/8 inch and O.D.
3/16 inch) sample loop in line with the carrier gas to the
injector. The sample loop was purged with helium. The
decomposition gases were introduced to the system by
bending the flexible Nalgene loop, thus, breaking the
capillary tube. Decomposition gases were identified by
comparing their GC retention times and mass spectra to
authentic samples. When authentic samples were not
available, sample spectra were compared with the NIST
MS library for a tentative assignment.
3 Results
The thermolysis of neat TATP was generally performed in
_160 _L ampoules over the temperature range 150 to
225_C. These thermolyses were first-order out to about90%
conversion at least at temperatures above 160_C. Generally
first-order plots were constructed with seven to eight data
points with a R2 fit better than 0.99. Even at 150_C TATP
samples appeared to be gaseous. To ensure that condensedphase
kinetics were examined, the reaction tubes were
reduced to 25 _L and the sample size increased to 3 mg.
Thermolyses were also performed in the presence of agents
which would
(a) produce methyl radicals (di-t-butyl peroxide);
(b) trap radical (di-t-butyl cresol); and
(c) donate hydrogen (isopropanol and 1,4-cyclohexadiene).
Table 1 shows the resulting rate constants. DSC was used
for initial screening of the TATP samples. Although
the melting point was relatively sharp, centered at 98_C
(109 J/g), the exotherm (215 _C, 3400 J/g, 800 cal/g)
was extremely broad ranging about 80_C at a scan rate of
20_C/min. For this reason the variable heating rate ASTM
DSC method could not be used to assess activation
parameters for TATP(21). In fact, at heating rates below
10_C/min, the exotherm appeared to consist of several
partially overlapping peaks, indicating the decomposition
included multiple reaction steps.
TATP decomposition products were identified and
quantified by GC/MS at two temperatures and two degrees
of conversion. At 230_C thermolysis was run in air and in
vacuum; no significant difference in the products was noted.
Acetone and carbon dioxide were the main products; these
were identified and quantified by comparison to the
authentic compounds. Other species were present as less
than 6%of the total ion current (TIC). Most were identified
by matching against a computer library (Table 2).
4 Discussion
Across a 75_C temperature range the gas-phase decomposition
of TATP was first-order out to a high degree of
conversion, indicating induced decomposition was not
important. The Arrhenius plot was linear over the entire
temperature range (Figure 2) suggesting the same ratedetermining
step was operative over the entire range. At
151_C the decomposition of TATP was not accelerated by
the presence of di-t-butyl peroxide, but thermolysis in the
condensed phase or in 2-propanol slightly increased the rate
of decomposition (Table 1). Figure 2 plots the rate constants
determined in this study of neat TATP along with those
obtained by another laboratory for the thermolysis of TATP
in toluene and acetone(16). That data fit reasonably well with
ours indicating that the decomposition pathway is essentially
the same regardless whether TATP is in toluene
solution or in the gaseous state. This result differs from the
decomposition of DADP where in solution the decomposition
of DADP is significantly accelerated (Figure 3).
Though the decomposition of gaseous DADP is much
slower than that of TATP, the decomposition of DADP
in solution is similar to that of TATP (Figure 3)(12,13).
The activation energies for the decomposition of gaseous
DADP (163 kJ/mol)(9) and TATP (153 kJ/mol) are quite
similar to each other and in line with O_O bond cleavage
energy.
Sanderson and Story compared the decomposition of
dicyclohexylidene diperoxide and tricyclohexylidene triper-
oxide and observed a difference in the way their decompositions
were affected by the solvent(14). The diperoxide
decomposition showed a linear dependence on solvent
polarity, while the triperoxide showed linear dependence
with the cohesive energy density of the solvent (i.e. the
energy necessary to form a solvent cavity as the reactant
goes from initial to transition state). It was concluded that
the transition state of the diperoxide was sensitive to the
solvent, while in the triperoxide, the initial state was more
sensitive. DADP has been shown to be somewhat unique
among the diperoxides because its low steric hinderance
makes interaction with solvent possible. TATP is much less
sensitive to the presence of toluene than is DADP. Such
solvent interactions may not be possible for the largerTATP.
However, TATP is sensitive to hydrogen-donating solvents.
Hydrogen donation was indicated in the thermolysis of
TATP in 1,4-cyclohexadiene because large amounts of
benzene were formed. This cannot be explained by methyl
radical scavenging since no increase in methyl radical
derived products was observed.
TATP product distributions were dependent on experimental
conditions (Table 2). Thermolysis of TATP gave
principally acetone and CO2. These products were quantified
against standard calibration curves (Table 2). Complete
decomposition ofTATPcould theoretically give three moles
of acetone, and oxygen:
C9H18O6_3 OC(CH3)2_1.5 O2
Although oxygen was not observed under the thermolysis
conditions, at 151_C in the melt phase and in hydrogendonating
solvents (2-propanol and 1,4-cyclohexadiene)
up to 2.6 moles of acetone formed per mole TATP. Under
these conditions, CO2 production was suppressed, and
decomposition rate constants were enhanced by factors
of 2 to 3.
The decomposition of TATP over the temperature range
230_C} 151_C yielded a single Arrhen ius plot with decom positions
first-order to a high degree of conversion. These
observations suggest a single rate-determining step over the
entire temperature range. Homolysis of an O_O bond is in
line with the observed activation energy. Following O_O
homolysis, both C_O and C_C bond cleavage have been
considered for cyclic diperoxides. For TATP a second O_O
bond homolysis might also be postulated. This would
produce dioxirane and the diradical [A] (Figure 4 route 3).
The diradical [A] would then decompose as shown in
Figure 1, explaining the similarity of the decomposition
products of DADP and TATP. The problem with this
pathway is that the diradical [A] should also form some
DADP; and even though DADP decomposes much more
slowly than TATP, no DADP was observed in any of the
TATP thermolyses.
Under the experimental conditions, C_C scission producing
methyl radical was a minor decomposition path for the
[B] diradical.We identified certain products as arising from
methyl radical reactions [ethane (methyl coupling); methanol
(methyl_OH), 2-butanone (methyl_acetone), ethyl
acetate (methyl_methyl acetate)] under most reaction
conditions, more abundant at 230_C than 151_C, more
abundant in gas phase than condensed (151 _C), and
extremely minor in hydrogen-donating solvents (Table 2).
At 230_C CO2, which can be thought of as a byproduct of
methyl radical formation, was at the highest value found in
this study. To determine whether carbon dioxide was a late
breakdown product in the gas-phase reaction, its distribution
was determined during the decomposition cycle. At
151_C the acetone/TATP ratio matched that of the fraction
decomposed (20%), but carbon dioxide was slightly high
(Table 2). At 230_C the fraction ofCO2 /TATP and acetone/
TATP ratios matched the fraction of TATP decomposed
(38%) to within experimental error. Thus, carbon dioxide is
mainly formed in the primary decomposition rather than in
the breakdown of some other product.
Postulating C_O bond homolysis in diradical [B] would
account for the major decomposition product acetone, at
least two moles/mole TATP. However, the mechanism
should also account for the formation of minor products
methyl acetate and acetic acid. Both species were almost
non-existent in the thermolysis of TATP in hydrogendonating
solvents, but in each case their gas-phase formation
was greater at 151_C than at 230_C. These two observations
might suggest these minor products arise from a common
source, such as the CH3COO. radical. However, not all
aspects of their formation were parallel. Furthermore, acetic
acid formation was not enhanced in hydrogen-donating
solvents. Because CH3COORformation is uniformly
enhanced at low temperature we postulate that its formation
involves an internal re-arrangement or in-cage radical
reaction. McCullough et al. did not observe methyl acetate
in the thermolysis of DADP but did detect the corresponding
ester in the decomposition of dibenzyl diperoxide(8).
They considered four routes to the ester:
a) in-cage radical recombination of RCOO. with R.
b) induced decomposition of the diperoxide by R.
c) in-cage induced decomposition of the peroxide intermediate
[A] by R.
d) alkyl migration in the intermediate biradical followed
by a second O_O bond fission.
They selected route c based on two observations.Amixture
of two diperoxides failed to produce significant RCOOR_
(ruling out route a). The thermolysis of the cyclic diperoxide
of benzyl phenyl ketone produced mainly benzyl benzoate,
small amounts of phenyl benzoate (should be sole product if
route a) and no phenyl phenyl acetate (should be formed to
some extent if route d) nor benzyl phenyl acetate(8).
We cannot postulate that methyl acetate was formed by
any of the pathways proposed by McCullough(8) because we
do not believe the diradical [A] forms under our experimental
conditions. If any of the four proposed reactions
occurred starting with diradical [B], diradical [A] would
form in addition to methyl acetate. Therefore, wemust look
for an alternative route to methyl acetate. We envision
diradical [B] to decompose such that the end carbon groups
form acetone while the remaining atoms [(CH3)2CO4]
produce dimethyl dioxirane and oxygen. Dioxiranes undergo
unimolecular conversion to the corresponding ester(22),
and this would account for the formation of methyl acetate.
Dimethyl dioxirane is a reasonable intermediate; in fact,
under some conditions it even forms diacetone diperoxide(
23). Although dioxirane has not been proposed as an
intermediate in the decomposition ofDADP, the energetics
may make it more likely when considering cyclic triperoxides.
In contrast with methyl acetate, acetic acid formation
was significantly greater in the condensed-phase (151 _C)
thermolysis compared to the gas-phase reaction. McCullough
et al. observed acetic acid in the thermolysis of
DADP but were unable to explain its formation(8). It is
somewhat puzzling that acetic acid production was enhanced
in the condensed-phase decomposition of TATP
and depressed when hydrogen-donating solvents were
present. In most other respects, the two types of reaction
conditions yielded similar results: increased acetone formation
(2.5 } 2.6 mol/mol); lack of methyl-radical-produ ce d
products; low quantities of methyl acetate; slightly elevated
decomposition rates (2 to 3 fold). We speculate that when
diradical [B] loses the two end groups forming acetone,
under conditions where the intermediate can be stabilized,
dioxirane is not formed. In the presence of stabilizing
species, such as a hydrogen-donating solvent or another
molecule ofTATP, oxygen is captured as water, and the third
(CH3)2Cgroup is often transformed to acetone. (It should be
noted that unlike with the reported DADP thermolyses(12),
oxygen was not observed in our experiments. Any oxygen
produced was apparently consumed in oxidative processes.
Attempts to show that singlet oxygen was involved in the
decomposition of diperoxides were not successful(24).) The
large amount of acetone produced when TATP was heated
in 2-propanol (over 7 moles per mole TATP) undoubtedly
arises from the oxidation of 2-propanol. McCullough
reported a similar result for DADP(8).
5 Conclusions
The products and activation energies for TATP decomposition
are similar to those of DADP. Over a large
temp erature range (230 } 150_C), TATP de co mposition is
initiated by O_O bond homolysis. Acetone was the major
decomposition product; carbon dioxide,methyl acetate, and
acetic acid were also observed as well as minor species
thought to result from methyl radical reaction. However, we
do not believe the decomposition of TATP proceeds
through the same intermediate diradical as DADP because
no DADP was observed in partially decomposed TATP.
Furthermore, neat TATP decomposed significantly faster
than DADP. Had DADP formed, it should have been
sufficiently long-lived for observation. FollowingO_Obond
homolysis rapid C_O scission yields two molecules of
acetone. The fate of the remaining atoms depends on the
reaction conditions. Gas phase favors the formation of
dimethyl dioxirane; high temperature favors its decomposition
to carbon dioxide; lower temperature favors production
of methyl acetate. Condensed-phase or reaction in a
hydrogen donating solvent favors the formation of a third
molecule of acetone rather than dioxirane.
6 References
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Chemical Technology , 4th e d., Organic P eroxid es Wiley,
New York, Chichester, 1999 , pp. 1472 } 1483 .
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Items, PATR2700 Vol. 8, U.S. Army ArmamentResearch &
Development Command, Dover, NJ 1978, p. 203.
(3) D. N-S Hon, Take care when using organic peroxides in the
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(4) T. Yoshida, K. Muraaga, T. Matsunaga, and M. Tamura,
Evaluation of Explosive Properties of Organic Peroxides
with a Modified Mk IIII Ballistic Mortar, J. Hazardous
Materia ls 12, 27 } 41 (1985 ).
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Vol. 3, Pergamon P ress , Ox ford, 1967 , pp. 299 } 305.
(6) D. J. Reutter, E. D. Bender, and R. L. Rudolph, Analysis of
an Unusual Explosive: Methods Used and Conclusions
Drawn from Two Cases, International Symposium Analysis
& Detection of Explosives, U.S. Dept. Justice, FBI, Quantico
(VA), March 1983 , pp. 149 } 158.
S. Zitrin, S. Kraus, and B. Glattstein, Identification of Two
Rare Explosives , International Symposium Analysis &
Detection of Explosives, U.S. Dept. Justice, FBI, Quantico
(VA), March 1983 , pp. 137 } 141. H. K. Evan s, A. J. Tulle ners,
B. L. Sanches, and C. A. Rasmussen, An Unusual Explosive,
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(1986).
G. M. White, An Explosive Drug Case , J. Forensic Science,
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E. Shannon, The Explosives: Who Built Reids Shoes? ,
Time, Feb. 25, 50 (2002).
(7) H. A. Brune, K. Wulz, and W. Hetz, ber den Substituenten-
Einfluss auf die konformative Beweglichkeit zyklischer
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(8) K. J. McCullough, A. R. Morgan, D. C. Nonhebel, and P. L.
Pauson, Ketone-derived Peroxides. Part II. Synthetic
M e t h o d s , J. Chem. Res. Synops es (M), 629 } 650 (1980 ).
K. J. McCullough, A. R. Morgan, D. C. Nonhebel, and P. L.
Pauson, Ketone-Derived Peroxides. Part III. Decomposition
of Cyclic Diperoxydes Derived from Dialkyl Ketones, J.
Chem. Res. Synops es (M), 651 } 676 (1980 ).
(9) L. F. R. Cafferata, J. D. Lombardo, Kinetics and Mechanism
of the Thermal Decomposition Reaction of Acetone Cyclic
Diperoxide in the Gas Pha se , Int. J. Chem. Kine t. 26, 503 }
509 (1994).
(10) S. G. Hong, Y. H. Li, AM1 Study of Thermolysis of Acetone
Cyclic Diperox ide , J. Mol. Struct. (Theochem) 363, 339 } 342
(1996).
(11) L. F. R. Cafferata, G. N. Eyler, E. L. Svartman, A. I. Can izo,
and E. J. Borkowski, Mechanism of the Thermal Decomposition
of the Activation Parameters of the Unimolecular
Reactio ns , J. Org. Chem. 55, 1058 } 1061 (1990 ).
(12) L. F. R. Cafferata, G. N. Eyler, and M. V. MirIfico Kinetics
and Mechanism of Acetone Cyclic Diperoxide (3,3,6,6-
Tetramethyl-1,2,4,5-tetroxane) Thermal Decomposition in
Benzene Solution , J. Org. Chem. 49, 2107 } 2111 (1984 ).
(13) L. F. R. Cafferata, G. N. Eyler, E. L. Svartman, A. I. Can izo,
and E. Alvarez, Solvent Effect in the Thermal Decomposition
Reactions of Cyclic Ketone Diperoxides , J. Org.
Chem. 56, 411 } 414 (1991 ).
(14) J. R. Sanderson, P. R. Story, Macrocyclic Synthesis. The
Thermal Decomposition of Dicyclohexylidene Diperoxide
and Tricyclohexylidene Triperoxide , J. Org. Chem. 39, 3463
(1974).
(15) G. N. Eyler, A. I. Can izo, E. E. Alvarez, and F. R. Cafferata,
Solvent Effects on the Thermal Decomposition of Diethyl
Ketone Cyclic Triperoxide , An. Assoc. Qui m. Argent. 82 (3 ),
175 } 181 (1994 ).
(16) G. N. Eyler, C. M. Mateo, E. E. Alvarez, A. I. Can izo,
Thermal Decomposition Reactions of Acetone Triperoxide
in Toluene Solution , J. Org. Chem. 65, 2319 } 2321 (2000 ).
(17) N. Milas, A. Golubovic, Studies in Organic Peroxides.
XXIV. Preparation, Separation and Identification of Peroxides
Derived from Diethyl Ketone and Hydrogen Peroxide ,
J. Am. Ch em. Soc. 81, 3361 } 3364 (1959 ).
(18) G. N. Eyler, A. I. Can izo, E. E. Alvarez, L. F. R. Cafferata,
Improved Procedure for the Preparation of Diethyl Ketone
Triperoxide and Kinetics of its Thermal Decomposition
Reactio n in Solution , Tetrahedron Lett. 34(11), 1745 } 1746
(1993).
(19) L. F. Whiting, M. S. Labean, S. S. Eadie, Evaluation of a
Capillary Tube Sample Container for Differential Scanning
Calorimetry , Thermochem. Acta 136, 231 } 245 (1988 ).
(20) W. Zheng, X. X. Dong, E. Rogers, J. C. Oxley, and J. L.
Smith, Improvements in Determination of Decomposition
Gases from 1,3,3-Trinitroazetidine (TNAZ) and 5-Nitro-2,4,-
dihydro-3H-1,2,4-triazol-3-one (NTO) using Capillary Gas
Chromatography/Mass Spectrometry , J. Chromat. Sci. 35,
478 } 482 (1997 ).
(21) Standard Test Method for Arrhenius Kinetic Constants for
Thermally Unstable Materials, The American Society for
Testing and Materials (ASTM) Committee E-27, Designation:
E 698 } 79, reapprove d 1993 .
(22) R. W. Murra y, Dioxiran e s , Chem. Rev. 89, 1187 } 1201
(1989).
(23) L. Cassidei, M. Fiorentino, R. Mello, O. Sciacovelli, and R.
Curci, J. Org. Ch em. 52(4), 699 } 700 (1987 ).
(24) J. R. Sanderson, P. R. Story, Singlet Oxygen Scavenger
Method for the Determination of Ketone Peroxide Kinetics,
J. Org. Chem. 39(21), 31 } 3185 (1974 ).
Acknowledgement
We thank the FAATechnical Center for funding this research.
(Received September 26, 2001; Ms 2001/018)
Anthony February 11th, 2003, 06:09 AM

Interesting.
Their method of production was a bit strange though.
"Addition of acid typically took 30 minutes; to hurry the process was to invite a violent event which in one case cracked a
shatterproof
shield and the Corning stirrer/hot plate top"
WTF? Steam explosion, or detonation? Either way, I've never heard of anyone on this forum, or elsewhere having this
problem.
"The reaction was considered complete when further addition of acid did not evoke violent bubbling"
Surely that "violent bubbling" is local overheating of the solution? Despite the dry-ice cooling, IMHO the addition rate of acid is
too high.
5ml acetone, 5ml 35% H2O2 and 3ml H2SO4 (conc not specified, but I bet it's in the 90's) seems like they have way too much
catalyst. So despite an addition rate 3ml over 30 mins, it's too fast because of the relative volume of the other reactants.
No neutralisation, despite the very high acidity of the finished solution and crystals.
Why methylene chloride was added after acid addition was complete I don't know. If it was to aid in drying, it would have made
more sense to add it after washing.
They probably know what they're doing, they've got the big expensive toys afterall, I just find aspects of their method strange.
megalomania February 12th, 2003, 01:31 AM

I wonder how many people here actually use the 35% varity of H2O2? That could be one reason why their reaction is so
vigerous. If you read through the article they mention the different effects solvents have on TATP vs. DADP. The use of
methylene chloride may in fact be a means to selectively isolate only TATP while leaving out DADP. I have little doubt that
their sample is quite pure, if it was not their NMR and GC/MS analysis would have been off and they would likely have
commented.
There use of such low temperatures really underscores the importance of not allowing any DADP to form. Reference 6, wihch is
actually several references of forensics journals, really drills home the importance of how dangerous DADP really is. This is also
the likely culpret why many members report their AP is either really safe, or completly unsafe. Different methods of synthesis
lead to differing amounts of DADP which can drasticially increase sensitivity.
Again I must point the use of sulfuric acid as the catalyst of choice. All of the professional literature uses it, while the
improvised literature uses HCl. I wonder what the difference really is? While HCl does seem to work fine, this reaction
presented here is seemingly desperate to complete the reaction in as short an amount of time as possible. It could be that
the vast amount of such a strong acid as sulfuric is all quite important in the reaction, as if doing it slower somehow promotes
a different reaction. I am sure the key to these questions lies in the original literature from which this procedure is derived.
Polverone February 12th, 2003, 03:09 AM

Why are you so very interested in references 17 and 18? I've read 17, and it appears that diethyl ketone peroxides aren't
notably explosive. There is a large series of these "Studies in Organic Peroxides" articles (ref 17), and in others (such as ones
on peroxides of acetone and methyl ethyl ketone) the authors explicitly note the explosive nature of the substances under
study. They don't make any such warnings in the diethyl ketone article.
One interesting thing about "Studies in Organic Peroxides" article on acetone peroxides is that the authors prepared it at 0 to
-5 degrees Celsius and obtained TATP in about 90% purity; the remaining 10% was, I believe, mostly the dimeric form. When
they combined 50% H2O2 and acetone and allowed the mixture to stand at room temperature, they obtained
.......OOH..
.......|......
CH3-C-CH3
.......|......
.......OOH..
The authors of this older article didn't use as much sulfuric acid as the authors of the one Megalomania just posted.
I am disinclined to believe that H2SO4 vs. HCl really makes much difference. I would guess that everybody who wants to study
these peroxides looks at the existing literature, says "everybody else used H2SO4," and then uses H2SO4 as well. I think
chemists are shy of changing things that they know work. Consider how many lab procedures specify benzene as a solvent
when the far less dangerous toluene would work nearly as well.
My guess as to why the authors of this newer article obtained such a pure substance was because they ran it at such a low
temperature, and perhaps also because they extracted it with DCM.
Regarding the extremely vigorous reaction they experienced on adding the acid, I think the basement chemists may actually
be wiser than the professionals here. Would you pre-mix acetone and H2O2 and then drip conc. H2SO4 into it? I sure wouldn't.
I would mix the H2O2 and H2SO4, so that the heat of dilution is expended without any acetone around to add to the danger,
chill the acid/H2O2 mix and the acetone, and mix them all together once cold.
I am willing to retract my statements about H2SO4 and the procedures used if evidence to the contrary appears, of course
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
As far as the acidity of final product goes, I think it's prudent to wash TATP of acid just so it won't be absorbing water (if you
used H2SO4) or corroding things. It's probably fine to wash it with bicarbonate solution. I would be wary, though, of washing it
with stronger bases. Peroxides are unstable in alkaline conditions. Mix 10 g 30% H2O2 and 2 g H2SO4. Now mix 10 g 30%
H2O2 and 2 g NaOH. I know, I should compare moles to moles, but the point stands. It's the *alkaline* peroxide that will
soon be fizzing itself to death. Acid does no harm. TATP isn't nitrocellulose.
I may perform some experiments in the near future - cautiously! - to see if there is noticeable sensitization or decomposition
of organic peroxides (probably HMTD) under stronger alkaline conditions. I know this won't definitively answer questions about
acetone peroxides and pH, but I don't have the patience to prepare and analyze TATP for chromatographic purity.
edit: fixed ASCII art so bonds line up
[ February 12, 2003, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Polverone ]
static_firefly February 12th, 2003, 05:30 AM

I found 50% h202 and acetone to be very hot reaction, just the addition of acetone causes it to create enough heat to almost
stop me from touching the sides of the container, the addition of acid will instantly form crystals, but you can alread tell what
type. Simmiler results when creaking MEKP except that it has a tendincy to have micro explosions...
Anyway i though that they created there AP at such low temps so that very little dimer would form, as you know it forms at
higher temps.
a_bab February 12th, 2003, 09:42 AM

As Polverone said, the chemists tend to imitate the ancestors. Hence the use of H2SO4. On the other hand the HCl is
unstable, and before usig it you have to titrate it, if you want to know the EXACT quantity. Not talking about the purity
problems. And apparently if a mineral acid is needed for a reaction, H2SO4 is the choise in all the books.
EP February 13th, 2003, 03:52 AM

Helvetica"> I wonder how many people here actually use the 35% varity of H2O2? <hr /></blockquote>I got 35% at a hydroponics store, using HCl the temp is fairly easy to keep below 5*C but I
guess that's not cold enough for the fancy types. I haven't tried it with H2SO4 yet, but I just got some high quality H2SO4 (i.e.
not drain opener!) and I'll test them out.
I'd be interested in seeing the results of your alkaline peroxide tests Polverone.
That is a shitload of acid they used, I guess they were in a hurry, hence blasting their hotplate! <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> :p
Anthony February 13th, 2003, 05:42 AM

My bad, I obviously didn't read it thoroughly enough.
I still don't understand their desire to complete the reaction in as rapid a fashion as possible. Possibly more of the dimmer is
formed if the reaction is "left" to complete like we amateurs do. But I don't see why if the temperature is kept low.
I too would be interested in your results, Polverone.
0EZ0 March 3rd, 2003, 11:58 PM

Sorry to be a nuisance guys, but I'm having a mental block. Can someone please help with balancing/fixing up these
reactions? I've had a lengthy search, and racked my brains, but to no avail :( .
Trimeric AP
CH3COCH3(l) + H2O2(aq) >-(in the

presenceof H+)-> C9H18O6(s) + H2O(l)
Dimeric AP
CH3COCH3(l) + H2O2(aq) >-(in the

presence of H+)-> C6H12O4(s) + H2O(l)
Thanks.
Edit: Scrub that, finally worked it out after a couple of hours :rolleyes: . Sorry to be of any inconvenience. Finding below.
Trimeric AP
3 CH3COCH3(l) + 3 H2O2(aq) >-(in the

presenceof H+)-> C9H18O6(s) + 3 H2O(l)
Dimeric AP
2 CH3COCH3(l) + 2 H2O2(aq) >-(in the

presence of H+)-> C6H12O4(s) + 2 H2O(l)
[ March 03, 2003, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
megalomania March 5th, 2003, 12:30 AM

I don't think the formation of TATP or DADP is a metathesis reaction like that. If you check my website on the acetone
peroxide page, you will see a graphic outlining the formation of explosive peroxides. There are many complex side reactions
that occur along with the primary product, TATP. The formula you have given is a good approximation of the net reaction
though.
0EZ0 March 5th, 2003, 05:17 AM

Mega, I was wondering about why it was so difficult to work out the reaction. Using the ratios that everyone has desribed for
AP(typically 1 part pure H2O2 to 6 parts Acetone by volume), It was impossible to balance the
equation :confused: . What you say about multiple side reactions makes sense. Thanks for the info. I will have a good read
of the page on your site. I'm trying to learn as much info as I can on various reactions at the moment, but got stuck with TATP
and DADP.
Thanks again :) .
aster March 5th, 2003, 10:48 AM

i am using 60% H2O2 in volume ratio of 1:6 with acetone, just adding the minimum amount, drop by drop the acid into the
solution, and keep them cool, i got abundant crystals of AP :D as i am not a chemist, sometimes i had idiot question
:confused: why the reaction just stop in maximum result of tricycloacetoneperoxide, is it possible maybe to make them
formed tetra, penta, or hexacycloperoxyacetone someday? :D and hope they are more stable and stronger than TCAP, sorry
for this idiot imagination :D
vulture March 5th, 2003, 05:46 PM

Helvetica">Mega, I was wondering about why it was so difficult to work out the reaction. Using the ratios that everyone has
desribed for AP(typically 1 part pure H2O2 to 6 parts Acetone by volume), It was impossible to balance the equation.<hr /></blockquote>Reaction procedures almost never use the exact
stoichiometric ratios as alot of thermodynamic and kinetic effects are not accounted for in an equation.
For example, you will use more hydrogenperoxide than necessary, because of it's inherent instability.
Nitration reactions with mixed acid usually have an excess of sulfuric acid to absorb the water produced by the reaction and
thus preventing dilution of the nitric acid.
You won't be learning very much about organic chemistry or the progress of a reaction by balancing equations. Although it's
always a nice exercise ofcourse :) .
Aster, I've seen a PDF circulating around this forum about the preparation of tetrameric acetone peroxide with the use of
SnCl2 or SnCl4.
[ March 05, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
0EZ0 March 5th, 2003, 09:39 PM

Helvetica"> Reaction procedures almost never use the exact stoichiometric ratios as alot of thermodynamic and kinetic effects
are not accounted for in an equation.
For example, you will use more hydrogenperoxide than necessary, because of it's inherent instability.
Nitration reactions with mixed acid usually have an excess of sulfuric acid to absorb the water produced by the reaction and
thus preventing dilution of the nitric acid.
You won't be learning very much about organic chemistry or the progress of a reaction by balancing equations. Although it's
always a nice exercise ofcourse .
<hr /></blockquote>Vulture, there are as you say alot of thing to take
into account with the chemistry behind the reactions. Balancing the AP reaction was just a tidbit that was getting to me. So i
thought investigation could prove a learning experience. I'm only just starting to take a proper interest in the chemistry areas.
So bare with me if a make a few mistakes. I've still got a lot of learning to do. So any guidance is appreciated :) .
The other reason I was focusing on particularly balancing the AP reaction was to try and economise to get a good yield using
less materials. In this case, a balanced reaction is a good starting point, then one can also take into account reactant
decomposition, volatisation, dilution, purity etc. I even tested some new ratios I came up with to see how different reactant
ratios performed and what kind of crystal structure was produced with AP. The adjusted ratios grew crystals out of the liquid and
climbed up the beaker to about twice the volume of the liquid. But the crystals produced were quite coarse though it was not
what i was looking for. For the traditional ratios the amount of crystalline AP was less because there was too much excess of
acetone, thus dissolving a marginal amount of crystals. Concluding, I found that not so much Acetone is needed. So with less
acetone also less acid to keep the reaction time the same as with traditional ratios, while still getting a similiar yield.
Little experiments like this just help me to get a visual grasp on things. As learning from books isn't always a good substitute
for actual experience.
Well, back to the books again.
[ March 05, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
HyggeDK March 25th, 2003, 05:53 PM

Helvetica"> I am disinclined to believe that H2SO4 vs. HCl really makes much difference. I would guess that everybody who
wants to study these peroxides looks at the existing literature, says "everybody else used H2SO4," and then uses H2SO4 as
well. <hr /></blockquote>Actually some experiments indicate that the
purity of the final product depends on the catalyst used. Allegedly HCl is supposed to result in TATP (TriAcetone TriPeroxide)
of higher purity than when using H2SO4 as catalyst. The use of H2SO4 as catalyst results in an increased formation of the
dimeric form, DADP.
The following is a quote from the article "Triacetone Triperoxide: Its Chemical Destruction" in Journal of Forensic Sciences
(1999, 44 (3), pp. 603 - 608):
The purity of a TATP sample was found to be dependant upon the acid used to catalyze the condenzation, HCl giving a much
purer product than H2SO4 as judged by TLC, GC, FTIR and DSC. The TATP from a H2SO4 catalyzed reaction is usually
contaminated (TLC, GC, FTIR) with diacetone diperoxide (DADP, II).
However, if this is due to the fact that sulfuric acid might heat the solution more than hydrochloric acid would (as suggested by
CragHack in the thread "AP catalysts - Archive File") I do not know. The author does not go into very much detail about the
synthesis but focuses mainly on the possible ways of destroying TATP.
Anyway it's a very nice article about TATP. It also gives Rf values for TATP and DADP when doing a TLC analysis on 60 F254
silica gel plates from Merck: Rf=0.57 for TATP and Rf=0.66 for DADP (using ethyl acetate as solvent). That might come in
handy when doing your optimizations :)
Also, even a saturated solution (~28 wt%) of TATP in toluene cannot be detonated, even when using a no. 8 blasting cap.
Might be a bit difficult to recrystalize the TATP though, as toluene is not that volatile (boils at 110.6C according to Merck
Index). And then again, that rather expensive toluene can be used for other more entertaining purposes :D
rjche April 10th, 2003, 05:10 PM

OEZO, if you want to find the BEST ratio for academic reasons, why not make a batch of the stuff, and let it go to completion
over say 24 hours. Then separate out the crystals (whatever they are) and split the filtered clear liquid left into two batches.
Since it is already acidified, to one batch add more peroxide, to the other add more acetone, and watch if one creates more
crystals. If so that reagent was lacking in the original formula quantities.
-----------------------------------------
However I will say that the fine academics is not all that valuable to the ones on this forum making the stuff. They want
something that is relatively safe, easy to make quickly, and has a good bang factor. If a few % loss is involved that is of little
concern in small production.
If its dim-eric+trim-eric, that doesn't matter much either if one has physically tested whatever-it-is for sensitivity, and storage.
I had hoped to get something practical from the journal article, but it began at a temp no one would subject AP to, (150 - 250
C) my god, that's abuse to anything explosive except maybe melt-able explosives like TNT.
The article is probably very good for theoreticians, but for experimenters I believe this forum is a superior authority than any I
have seen yet. As for his ability to detonate some in the hood, that does not say much for his experience. Many novices make
the stuff and I have not heard of a runaway explosion yet.
The dumping of 35% peroxide into the proper amount of acetone gets warm, not hot. The one who used 50% peroxide says
that gets hot. There are two calibration points as to what % one ought use.
When a liter of 35% peroxide was mixed with the usual volume of acetone, (check the optimizing-apan post for quantities
used there) it got up to about 40C, and when cooled down to about 5 C the slug of HCL was thrown in all at once, and it
warmed up to about 10 C and clouds of white crystals formed until it became a slush.
If it was a mixture of di and tri ap, then so be it. That mixture or substance, whatever it is, when washed neutralized, dried,
and tested for friction is not overly sensitive. When dried with warm air till half of it had sublimed, it was only slightly more
friction sensitive, not enough to cause accidents.
About the neutralization, I am not so sure that is needed. Peroxide is shipped with a small fraction of a percent phosphoric
acid in it for STABILITY purposes. The ph of store 3% peroxide is about 6.
AP stored in water with ph about 6 seems to evolve less bubbles for the 48 hours after creation, than when pure water or ph 8
water is used. Baking soda washing is practically neutral for it is a powerful buffer, being used in the body's blood system for
ph control.
(It is an excellent powder to throw on skin that has been exposed to either acid or base spills for it neutralizes both. Put some
on a finger with sodium hydroxide on it and it looses its slippery feel instantly. It takes much water washing to do the same.
Moral if working with acids and bases keep a jug of strong baking soda water handy. It can turn a major disaster into a WOW,
that was close. A pound box of soda in a gallon of water seems good, even for eye splashes).
Whatever people are making when they do AP, it explodes with all the violence anyone could ask for. It withstands slow
compacting with pressures approaching 1000 psi with no reaction to that. Doing that in milliseconds would probably heat
entrapped air to the ignition point and bang.
It stands rather abusive rubbing with steel on steel, and fairly hard abuse with heat insulating surfaces like dry wood. What it
would not stand for is mortar and pestle grinding, even gently, at which small amounts crackled giving ample warning that you
were courting disaster.
As one non professional poster put it, mortar pestle grinding was pissing it off and it was giving you the canine-like growling to
let you know bad things were coming next if it didn't stop. He tried that with a bb size lump. Try that with a spoon full and the
first crackle may be carried to you by all of the AP moving at mach 7 or so.
I tend to agree that the professionals probably use sulfuric because that is in the prior literature. Using anything different
would have tainted their results enough for some hot shot competitor to claim that rendered them of little value.
For all I know there may be a particular acid, phosphoric, acetic, etc that is even better than HCL, but what the hell, HCL is
danged good as it is, and makes gobs of something useful, and does it fast enough.
The theorists will likely be about a decade behind the tinkerers. Fedorof waded through acetone peroxides in the 1960's and
not much more has been done on them since, apparently. He must have scared hell out of all professionals.
Hopefully some theoretical document will eventually give us some practical guidelines, but that's not likely, as AP is gaining
the "terrorist agent" label. Soon it will be considered that nobody but a terrorist would make the stuff, and viola, if you got ap
you are a certified terrorist, just not yet bloomed out. Barney, call the TV cameras and see the terrorist we captured before he
got anything done...
I have noticed that some arab like people are being arrested in European nations for having trace amounts of ap around their
digs. It is hard to make without getting some just about everywhere. Keep that in mind if experimenting with it for it is easy to
test for, (although it is reported drug dogs cannot detect it...take that with a grain of salt, it may be a trap for those who
believe it),
If you attracted fuzz attention doing something else, they might proceed to do a publicity show on you if they tested and
found traces. If you are in a nation which has pissed off the world, and is hyper on terrorists, experimenting with chemicals
that go bang is a hazardous occupation.
Those nations are looking for terrorists, and finding none, are making up some, from non terrorists who do anything out of
the ordinary choir boy stuff. They gotta keep the people hyper sensitive so they won't notice all the crime going on in those
governments.
Farting brisantly can get you reported to the local block "watcher" in some retirement communities, and god help you if you lit
it and the tattler saw fire also, or smelled poison gas kind of smells.
IF you experiment with it, try not to contaminate the whole house, and store the stuff in an all plastic (plastic cap also) half
liter pop bottle (no metal at all to arouse metal detectors, take any metalized label off also) filled above the ap with water,
and buried somewhere, rather than keep it close around your hood.
I have not found any posts anywhere yet on whether it's better to leave the cap slightly loose to exhaust any gas, or to make
it tight so the vapor pressure of AP is reached and it stops subliming.
If it gives off co2 the water will absorb a lot of that, but it may reach bursting pressures eventually. Half liter pop bottles burst
at about 150 psi or so. Filled with water no noise but if half full of gas, a poof if shallow buried. Blame it on a groundhog
farting. It will NOT detonate when soaking wet unless you hit it with a primer cap blast, and even then it's not all that
impressive I hear.
One could let any AP evolved gas accumulate in another bottle under water and test it to see if its co2 or oxygen, or hydrogen.
Some bubbling was noticed by some posters elsewhere for about two days after creation. That varied and some batches did
bubble a little over 24 hours, and their whole mass of crystals tended to barely float in water, while other batches did not float
and sank, with no bubbles. Yet both kinds appeared identical when dried and tested for quality. One poster adjusted his
storage water to ph 6 and said the bubbling seemed to stop and the crystals then sank. Being experimenters, they merely
mentioned the facts with no idea why or what. Those were all using the hcl method best I recall, so I'll call their stuff hcl AP.
Alchemist April 10th, 2003, 06:31 PM

Hello all,
I use SnCl4 all the time now to make Tetrameric AP and it works just fine! No acid at all (yes, I know SnCl4 is a Ph acidic), just
stating you do NOT need either H2SO4 or HCL. I was going to try AlCl3 or FeCl3, but have never gotton around to it.
Later........

Would AlCl3 work? I can do tests if you wish, however i am not sure how one would distinguish the tri from the tetra.
Arthis May 2nd, 2003, 05:07 PM

I am wondering what would be the exact reaction involving the acid catalyst ? The fact is we keep using acids, from HCl to citric
acid (we've discussed that many times). I would be interested in knowing the etaps with catalysts like SnCl4, the reactions
surely is quite different and may be more efficient easier, etc...
If anyone knows...
How do you use your catalyst Alchemist? just stir powder in your mix ?
MightyQuinn February 1st, 2005, 08:11 PM

I know I am dredging up an old and long thread, but this information/article is directly on topic with the title of the thread. The
search engine is a wondrous thing ;) It might be old news to some, but I found it kind of interesting. I've tried to decipher the
original post by Mega, but it's a bit above my scientific understanding. For all I know this just boils down Megas post for us
dumb 'cuntry folk. :D
I found this article on the New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns), one of my favorite sites to browse.
Terrorist explosive blows up without flames (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6925)
10:55 31 January 2005

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition
Jenny Hogan
"An explosive sometimes used by terrorists does not burn when it detonates. Instead, its molecules simply fall apart. The
chemist who has discovered this is so concerned by its implications that he has decided to abandon this line of research.
Triacetone triperoxide (TATP) has been used by suicide bombers in Israel and was chosen as a detonator in 2001 by the
thwarted "shoe bomber" Richard Reid. Now calculations by Ehud Keinan from the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in
Haifa show that most of its explosive force comes from a rapid release of gas rather than a burst of energy.
In conventional high explosives such as TNT, each molecule contains both a fuel component and an oxidising component.
When the explosive detonates, the fuel part is oxidised and as this combustion reaction spreads it releases large amounts of
heat almost instantaneously.
TATP molecules are made up of fragments that could react in a similar way. But Keinan says that videos showing samples of
TATP being detonated show that it can do so without producing any flame.
Oxygen and ozone
His team's calculations indicate why. Explosions are driven by the reaction that takes the least energy to start. In this case it is
not oxidation but disintegration. The TATP molecule sheds acetone units, setting free the oxygen atoms that bound them
together to form the gases oxygen and ozone. It also releases just enough energy to spread the reaction to the next
molecule.
One molecule of TATP produces four of gas, giving TATP its explosive power. Just a few hundred grams of the material will
produce hundreds of litres of gas in a fraction of a second.
"It's different to conventional explosives," agrees Jimmie Oxley, a chemist at the University of Rhode Island in Kingston, US,
who has studied TATP and worked with Keinan on other projects. But it is not unique. The decomposition of azide, for
example, which produces nitrogen gas but little heat, is used to fill airbags for cars.
TATP turns out to be the most extreme example so far, and it may be possible to design molecules that behave as an even
more powerful explosive. But the idea does not appeal to Keinan. "I don't want to continue this kind of research," he says.
Instead, he plans to work with security agencies to develop a device that can detect TATP.
Journal reference: Journal of the American Chemical Society (DOI: 10.1021/ja0464903)"
The_Duke February 1st, 2005, 08:44 PM

Well since you brough t up the thread I guess Ill attach a cou ple files relating to th e chemical des truction of AP and it s
decomposition in toluene. The files are already on the ftp but I though I would attach them anyway, as they might be of help
to some.
tom haggen February 1st, 2005, 10:33 PM

I'm sure those scientist know what they are doing too. But their report of cracking the flask was probably just one of those
clumsy guys dropping a flask or something. I can't tell you how many skinny nerdy kids are at my school that break shit all
the time. Some people just don't know how to work with there hands. I use 35% H202 all the time, and I cool down all my
reactants below 0 degrees Celsius before I begin. I can add H2SO4 all at once every time and not have to worry about a run
away type reaction. However, as I stated before my reactants are extremely cold when I mix them. Also, when I add my acid
all at once it always forms DADP so I generally don't do this. I've noticed that the exothermic reaction is much more violent
when making HTMD.
nbk2000 February 2nd, 2005, 10:05 PM

What alternates to acetone could be used to make a 'disintegrating' molecule more powerful? We know about the ketones,
what else is there? Could metallic ions be attached instead?
megalomania February 3rd, 2005, 12:42 AM

The disintegrating reaction is probably apt for many peroxides in general. Unfortunately the same mechanism that gives these
compounds their explosive power also likely contributes to their extreme sensitivity and instability. Anything more powerful
would probably be nearly impossible to isolate, and would be quite dangerous to form in the first place. However, there might
be an island of stability with certain structures. That is probably why he won't do any more research.
I wonder, can TACP be called an explosive at all then since it does not explode? This is more of a legal question since if the
substance is not "explosive" per se then you may have an argument in court of you get pinched using it. Let us challenge the
BATF's recent appointment of TATP to The List!
That silly jew abandoned an entire line of research because of the implications of his work? He isn't even making explosives,
he is only characterizing them. That would be like Einstein getting out of physics because he found out atoms are split by
neutrons. A more plausable story is he will no longer PUBLICALLY disclose the results of his research, instead doing it under
classified military contract for the development of jew weapons.
Boomer February 3rd, 2005, 08:33 AM

Sorry but IMO he (that jew) is an idiot. Does he tell us AP releases acetone and ozone during detonation, but it is no explosive
because nothing is oxidized? I bet my ass the end products are CO2, CO, H2O, H2 according to OB. Will DDNP detonate
froming DNP + nitrogen? TATNB will form TNB + nitrogen? Anything with the peroxi- or azo-group would be a non-explosive in
Ehud's terms.
It is true that the stressed bonds in these groups promote explosive decomposition, but what happens next is a standard
CHNO explosive decomposition towards the end products (OK forget the N for peroxides).
Jacks Complete February 6th, 2005, 09:18 PM

I think the reason these guys are all having so much fun is that they didn't come here and read how to make this stuff
properly, so they screwed it up.
They probably tried to do it from first principles, and a crap-book, and hence they blew some beakers apart.
Either that, or they want to try to convince everyone that AP is worse than nukes??!?
...but no researchers ever have a hidden agenda like that, so they?
me234 February 9th, 2005, 01:29 AM

Shit yeah!
Take AP off The List baby!!!
HEH, HEH, HEH.
That theory of 'breaking up' instead of exploding does sound rather plausible when taken in light of the article Mega wrote up.
In it it states that the products of decomposition typically include acetone and other stuff like that.
So thank you MightyQuinn!
So we have distinct reason to believe that triacetone triperoxide (cyclic) perhaps may fail to meet many a country's definition
of an "explosive".
I feel that all country's should make it be publicly known exactly what definition they make use of to classify a substance as
such.
You know what bugs me?

It's that many countries ban all purchase or sale or possession of explosives without a valid license. And they then let people
buy pure nitromethane from a shop.
WTF?
They know it can be made to explode with a suitable detonator, you don't even need a sensitizer.
Dumb fucks!
Could you imagine if every person and industry or company that used nitromethane for anything suddenly required a permit to
use it as a solvent.
Or if every farmer needed one to be able to use ammonium nitrate for fertilizer.
There might just be a small outcry.
Yay.
me234 February 11th, 2005, 06:02 AM

Could the low yield experienced by the journal writers perhaps be due to the fact that (unless I read it wrong) they didn't wait
very long be fore performing the extractions.
Yes I know that they used H2SO4 (probably >~90%) but still, I'm sure that not all the AP was formed in that short time.
Also, does anybody else have the feeling that, when dreaming up AP with conc. H2SO4, they lost some of their product towards
the end of the acid addition.
Perhaps the bubbling encountered was due to either AP decomp. or H2O2 decomposing into O2?
megalomania July 23rd, 2005, 07:00 AM

Due to the recent London bombings I have been reflecting on acetone peroxide for a bit. I re-reviewed this article and I have
a question... Since it seems the decomposition product of AP is 3 moles of acetone per mole of AP, would it not be feasable to
add something to AP in order to combust all that acetone? Certainly many already admix their AP with other materials.
Perhaps using neat AP is not the best way to go. The Encyclopedia of Explosives states AP has a detonation temperature over
5000 degrees, so I would think some of the acetone would combust. Still it would make for a more effective detonation if an
additional oxident could be added to react with the acetone, and perhaps something to raise the detonation temperature as
well.

Due to the recent London bombings I have been reflecting on acetone peroxide for a bit. I re-reviewed this article and I have
a question... Since it seems the decomposition product of AP is 3 moles of acetone per mole of AP, would it not be feasable to
add something to AP in order to combust all that acetone? Certainly many already admix their AP with other materials.
Perhaps using neat AP is not the best way to go. The Encyclopedia of Explosives states AP has a detonation temperature over
5000 degrees, so I would think some of the acetone would combust. Still it would make for a more effective detonation if an
additional oxident could be added to react with the acetone, and perhaps something to raise the detonation temperature as
well.
xyz July 23rd, 2005, 08:21 AM

Interesting... I didn't know that decomposing AP yielded acetone...
That's another thing to add to my list of things that help explain why a mixture of 25% AP and 75% KNO3 seems to be more
powerful than the same amount of pure AP.
NOTE: Power refers to raw power (i.e. loudness, crater size, distance it will throw a nearby object), VoD is actually lowered, so
stick to pure AP for detonators, mixtures with KNO3 are suited only to salutes and low-hygroscopicness (is that a word?)
booster charges, where KNO3 is much less hygroscopic than AN, although also a lot less powerful
My previous theory was that although the KNO3 doesn't itself detonate, it supplies extra oxygen allowing the AP to detonate
fully.
I mucked around with different ratios to arrive at a 25/75 mixture as my salute-on-steroids composition. Later I did an oxygen
balance calculation on the AP/KNO3 mixture, and IIRC it turned out that 25% AP to 75% KNO3 was roughly the right ratio as
far as oxygen balance was concerned.
NOTE 2: 25% AP to 75% KNO3 is still flame sensitive, and very much so...
Back to the topic now, wouldn't the acetone formed in AP decomposition simply evaporate off as it formed? I mean, if you
leave AP to decompose, even inside a sealed container (don't try the latter at home, kids...), it doesn't form any visible
amount of liquid in there...
xyz July 23rd, 2005, 08:21 AM

Interesting... I didn't know that decomposing AP yielded acetone...
That's another thing to add to my list of things that help explain why a mixture of 25% AP and 75% KNO3 seems to be more
powerful than the same amount of pure AP.
NOTE: Power refers to raw power (i.e. loudness, crater size, distance it will throw a nearby object), VoD is actually lowered, so
stick to pure AP for detonators, mixtures with KNO3 are suited only to salutes and low-hygroscopicness (is that a word?)
booster charges, where KNO3 is much less hygroscopic than AN, although also a lot less powerful
My previous theory was that although the KNO3 doesn't itself detonate, it supplies extra oxygen allowing the AP to detonate
fully.
I mucked around with different ratios to arrive at a 25/75 mixture as my salute-on-steroids composition. Later I did an oxygen
balance calculation on the AP/KNO3 mixture, and IIRC it turned out that 25% AP to 75% KNO3 was roughly the right ratio as
far as oxygen balance was concerned.
NOTE 2: 25% AP to 75% KNO3 is still flame sensitive, and very much so...
Back to the topic now, wouldn't the acetone formed in AP decomposition simply evaporate off as it formed? I mean, if you
leave AP to decompose, even inside a sealed container (don't try the latter at home, kids...), it doesn't form any visible
amount of liquid in there...

It does not form acetone when it decomposes, the formation of acetone and ozone happens when it is detonated. AP does not
form the usual combustion products of CO2 and water one would expect from an explosive, rather the molecule reconfigures
into 3 molecules of acetone and one of ozone. This reaction happens supersonicially and as the products take up more space
than the original you get and explosive shockwave.
Now then, since the product gasses are mostly acetone, itself a flammable material, it should be possible to combust that
acetone. This would lead to more volume of gas, hence a bigger crater. Indeed I would not expect an increase it detonation
velocity.

It does not form acetone when it decomposes, the formation of acetone and ozone happens when it is detonated. AP does not
form the usual combustion products of CO2 and water one would expect from an explosive, rather the molecule reconfigures
into 3 molecules of acetone and one of ozone. This reaction happens supersonicially and as the products take up more space
than the original you get and explosive shockwave.
Now then, since the product gasses are mostly acetone, itself a flammable material, it should be possible to combust that
acetone. This would lead to more volume of gas, hence a bigger crater. Indeed I would not expect an increase it detonation
velocity.
hereno July 23rd, 2005, 01:08 PM

Thats crap. I highly dought the decomposition of AP into acetone and ozone is even exothermic.. it'd be a pretty keeewwwll
explosive :rolleyes: . Theres no way in hell ozone is going to be an end product of this explosion but lets just pretend it does,
how long do you think its going to last in admixture with acetone during a detonation, how hot is it again?
I think people should step back and think a bit.
hereno July 23rd, 2005, 01:08 PM

Thats crap. I highly dought the decomposition of AP into acetone and ozone is even exothermic.. it'd be a pretty keeewwwll
explosive :rolleyes: . Theres no way in hell ozone is going to be an end product of this explosion but lets just pretend it does,
how long do you think its going to last in admixture with acetone during a detonation, how hot is it again?
I think people should step back and think a bit.
megalomania July 24th, 2005, 01:37 AM

That's what I thought, I too doubt with an explosion temperature that high that the most if not all of the decomp products will
not combust. But, I will defer to the scientist with the multi-million dollar lab... It is possible that they detonated such a small
amount that there is insufficient local heating to combust the acetone.
I should add that I am in error about the explosion temperature! I quoted the figure shortly after I closed the file in question,
but the number that stuck in my head was the detonation velocity NOT the detonation temperature. Repeat, the detonation
temperature is NOT 5000 degrees. In fact I could not find reference to the detonation temperature, or any thermodynamic
data at all... I know it is around here somewhere :(
That's what I thought, I too doubt with an explosion temperature that high that the most if not all of the decomp products will
not combust. But, I will defer to the scientist with the multi-million dollar lab... It is possible that they detonated such a small
amount that there is insufficient local heating to combust the acetone.
I should add that I am in error about the explosion temperature! I quoted the figure shortly after I closed the file in question,
but the number that stuck in my head was the detonation velocity NOT the detonation temperature. Repeat, the detonation
temperature is NOT 5000 degrees. In fact I could not find reference to the detonation temperature, or any thermodynamic
data at all... I know it is around here somewhere :(
Boomer July 25th, 2005, 04:12 AM

Wasn't the AP heated and *slowly* decomposed in a solvent? IIRC they used an apparatus similar (identical?) to the one
used to detect the maximum exotherm of energetic materials, which is *not* the detonation point.
Maybe that misunderstanding comes from an article stating that *initially* the molecule is shattered into Acetone + O3. At the
high temp (again I doubt the 5000 K) they will react normally towards equilibrium like all hot detonation gasses.
Jut THINK people: A fuel plus oxygen (ozone even!) in molecular admixture, at 10+ times the ignition temp......
BTW is acetone even stable above 1000K?
Boomer July 25th, 2005, 04:12 AM

Wasn't the AP heated and *slowly* decomposed in a solvent? IIRC they used an apparatus similar (identical?) to the one
used to detect the maximum exotherm of energetic materials, which is *not* the detonation point.
Maybe that misunderstanding comes from an article stating that *initially* the molecule is shattered into Acetone + O3. At the
high temp (again I doubt the 5000 K) they will react normally towards equilibrium like all hot detonation gasses.
Jut THINK people: A fuel plus oxygen (ozone even!) in molecular admixture, at 10+ times the ignition temp......
BTW is acetone even stable above 1000K?
FUTI July 28th, 2005, 09:50 AM

No acetone isn't stabile at high temperatures. IIRC it decompose at wire heated up to 700 degrees Celsius as laboratory
procedure for making ketene and acetic acid anhydride (plus methane of course). I believe that old industrial process was the
same until Monsanto procedure for acetic acid. So I don't think that acetone is stabile at 1000K.
FUTI July 28th, 2005, 09:50 AM

No acetone isn't stabile at high temperatures. IIRC it decompose at wire heated up to 700 degrees Celsius as laboratory
procedure for making ketene and acetic acid anhydride (plus methane of course). I believe that old industrial process was the
same until Monsanto procedure for acetic acid. So I don't think that acetone is stabile at 1000K.
Chris The Great July 31st, 2005, 06:16 AM

It is possible that they detonated such a small amount that there is insufficient local heating to combust the acetone.
The thermolysis of neat TATP was generally performed in

_160 _L ampoules over the temperature range 150 to
225_C. These thermolyses were first-order out to about90%
conversion at least at temperatures above 160_C. Generally
first-order plots were constructed with seven to eight data
points with a R2 fit better than 0.99. Even at 150_C TATP
samples appeared to be gaseous. To ensure that condensedphase
kinetics were examined, the reaction tubes were
reduced to 25 _L and the sample size increased to 3 mg.
It doesn't appear that they detonated anything as Boomer said. After all if they did the products simply could not exist
together, ozone reacts with nearly everything combustable at room temp and at the extreme pressure suddenly generated by
the formation of 4 moles of gas by one mole of solid it will react quite quickly with that acetone, and the remaining acetone
will also begin to decompose in the high temperatures following the combustion....
It does explain why AP has such a unique smell after it is detonated. If someone isolated the compounds remaining after a
detonation, then a much clear picture of the detonation process of AP could be gained.
FUTI August 5th, 2005, 06:36 AM

Boomer started a little buzz in my head with his question. Combustion or explosion or whatever it is oxidation process for
which radical process is postulated. This could explain why MEK gives more fragile product with H2O2 compared with acetone
since partial decomposition of of MEK can give ethyl radical and ethylene as end product of those few steps making that step
more exotermic compared with breaking up acetone to methyl radical and methane - both process of course yields ketene but
that is common point that won't influence energy status. Please comments - aplause or tomatoes?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > CO2 bomb w/sterno - Archive file
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megalomania February 28th, 2003, 01:42 PM

CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all this talk about CO2 bombs using sparkler dust as an initiation device has got me thinking. i personally cannot get
sparklers where i am from. i do not know why but... what about positioning a CO2 cartridge directly over the flame of a sterno
can? i know these things burn for a long time, and they produce alot of heat. a typical can of sterno burn anywhere from 100
degrees to 160 degrees (F).
<a href="http://www.sterno.com/Sterno_index.html" target="_blank">http://www.sterno.com/Sterno_index.html</a>
does anyone know how long, at like 130 degrees (F), a full CO2 cartridge would take to explode? i know Mg burns at like 5000
degrees (F)
------------------
...
[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited December 14, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited December 14, 2000).]
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know, but I think the lid in the canister (CO2)is make of lead. If you didnt know, lead (Pb)has a very low melting piont
for a metal. You can easily melt some of it on your stove in a couple minutes. So the lid would probly go, and might make it
like a rocket if pointed right.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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The tops of CO2 cartridges (the bit that gets punctured) are steel and I believet hey are crimped on.
I wouldb't be surprised if slow heating (like from the sterno) would just blow of the top as it is an obvious weak point.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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well you could invert the CO2 powerlet and make it so the flame acts on the bottom (the no crimped part) of the CO2 thing.
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...
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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Placing it over a candle even works... just heat the side or the bottom and it should go within 30 secs.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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The top blows and it makes a nifty woosh and a cloud of white liquid CO2. Chances are the CO2 will put out your Stern-o, too.
If you want to see a cartridge explode, leave one on the railroad tracks...
The best use, of course, is to make a cratermaker out of it (after you use it in your gun to shoot squirrels).

aussie_kid
A new voice
Posts: 36
From: Australia
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Yeah just a minor point...
Liquid CO2 cannot exist. CO2 goes straight from a gas to a solid, or from a solid to a gas.
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
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The CO2 bulbs in Australia only have a thin cover that is meant to be pierced, but it never breaks when it is heated.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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Last I checked, the CO2 in a cartridge is under enough pressure to make it go into a liquid state. It stays liquid for a spit
second (especially in colder weather) after it comes out of the cart, thus the white "smoke" that comes out of the barrel of the
gun. I don't think that's solid CO2... Decompressing something and having it turn into a solid doesn't make physical sense.
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The A Files
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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he is probably confused, first it is true that co2 can only stay in the solid and gas state, only in room pressure (around 4 bar)
but the co2 gas is compressed into the co2 cartrage, so it gives alot of heat off and compresses to a liquid like state, co2
forms a semi liquid like state at below a certan temp and will eventualy form a liquid but it cant form a solid at those temps,
(except absolute zero) but when it gets released from the tank it comes out as a liquid with a low boiling temp and boild
instantly giving that colling effect, witch can also freeze itself and "blow snow" ask any paintball player to hold their gun upside
down and fire it (as long as they use co2) that can fuck up o rings too. hope I've been of some help
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
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I always assumed that the depressurization of the gas causes a dramatic reduction in temerature, and because the Co2 is now
colder than the air around it, it becomes visible, errr, somethin like that.
Anyways, I could have sworn I saw something about these 'bombs' in the Pyro Diary.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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So if i wanna make a Crater Maker and i have no paintball gun or a mixer,Is it safe to open it?
--==DarkAngel==--
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Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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Just open it with a nail. Just tap it and it with a hammer and it will start to so ssssss, then leave it for about 1 minute or so.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited December 16, 2000).]
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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No, DO NOT open it by hitting it with a nail. The safest way, without a gun, is to secure a nail to one side of a vise, grip the
cartridge in the vise with the tip on the nail, and slowly tighten the vise until the nail punctures the tip. If you hit it with a
hammer, two bad things could happen:
The cart could release all its pressure and fly away at high speeds, very disasterous indoors, not to mention if it hits you in the
face.
The nail could get shot out of the end of the cartridge from the pressure, after you take the hammer off. to use an age old
expression, you'll poke your eye out.
With the vise, as long as the cartrige is held in securely, is far safer. Anyway, once the cart is punctured, slowly losen the vise,
and all the CO2 will hiss out, making another one of those nifty white clouds. Congrats, you just wasted a C02 cartrige.
Cratermaker info can be found anywhere (including the link in my signature, below) so I won't go into posting that.
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The A Files
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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uh, they arent that powerful, you can easily hold a thumbtack in ine with 1 fin ger, and they do not "rocket off" the only way
you can make one fly is by sticking one end in your pellet gun and firing it with a pellet and it wil go five or six feet up with a
little aid from the co2 cart, and if you heat the co2 carts (never a good idea) the liquid co2 inside starts expanding til it bursts
the bottom off!
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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I have opened about a box (25 I believe) of these and never had one go carzy. I just tap it once, usually, and it slowly starts
to go pppsssssssssssssssss(for about a minute or two). Just thought of this, dont open a whole box on your room. You might
end up like Pyro 500 did that one time when his Paintball CO2 can broke. And I think the lid on the can is not lead. I
remember drilling one and having to pull it off with pliers, not easy. I thought I read in a magazine that "they are lead sealed
for your protection". And the nail never goes in, just enough to bearly poke a pin sized hole in it.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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I've never had a problem punturing them by hand with a nail, if you're that scared, hold the nail in a pair of pliers and it it at
arms length so you keep your head well away. That's what I do with ammunition.
I used the tip of a dart once and made a pin hole sized hole, the cartridge leaked for over 45 minutes! If you don't want to
completely wastet he cartridge, make a small hole in it and drop it into a bottle and screw the cap on - pressure bottle bomb.
The reason it is so easy to hold a tack into the punctured cartridge is beacue oft he tiny surface area of the tack tip that the
gas has to push against. If the tack tiop had a surface area of 1 square inch, it would require roughly 750 pounds of force to
hold it in. But it doesn't it has a surface area of about 1/2mm so the force acting on it is tiny.
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 536
From: Dizneland
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My method is to simply drill through the top with the appropraite size bit for my fuse.
I drill slowly until the hissing noise is heard, the when the hissing stops drill the rest of the way through.
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Whoa, where my fingers?
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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I found that out the hard way once, back when I was even dumber than I am now. I guess I just hit the nail too hard or
something. Anyway, steady pressure on a sharp object is how the cart gets punctured in the gun, and I've found it's the best
way. Oh well. To each his own...
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The A Files
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Oh yeah, I've also drilled them and shot the top with a pistol crossbow.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
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A while ago, after my BB gun died, I had a new box of 25 Co2 cartridges with no purpose in there life.
Remembering our Co2 dragsters from science class I figured I could make the Cart themselves projectiles,
I simply glued a 3/4" endcap with a sharpened screw bolted through it, onto a approximate 6 or 7' length of 3/4" PVC.
I just leaned the pipe up against a saw horse at my buddy's house and dropped 'um in,
they acheived pretty good altitudes, but aiming was a joke, I was almsot hit by a few of them.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
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Hmmm.. what if you dropped a full powerlet into a 2 liter bottle full of acid? Would not the acid eat away at the powerlet until it
ruptured and the pressure exploded the bottle spraying acid everywhere? And being a steel containter it would take a while for
the acid to eat through.
The only rub I'd see would be if enough gas was produced by the acid eating the steel to cause a minor rupture of the bottle
before the powerlet had been penetrated.
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Interesting idea, you might have to sand the cansiter if it is painted/laqueered or otherwise protected from rust. The gas
produced by the HCl could well rupture the bottle, I suppose a pinhole in the lid would fix that problem?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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why use hcl? use h2so4 it is more powerful against steel (I think)
Energy84
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: Earth
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Hey, wouldn't a CO2 cartridge inside a ball of thermite make an interesting mix? Once the cartridge ruptures/explodes, chunks
of burning thermite would be thrown all over the place. I'm not sure if this would work though... I haven't had the opportunity
to play with thermite yet.
BTW, does anyone have any ideas for something else to use instead of the crushed sparkler powder? would simple smokeless
gunpowder work? (I've got about 2 pounds of it )
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Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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I think the smokeless would burn too fast to heat the cartridge into rupturing. If you enclose it, it might flat out blow the
cartridge up.
Smokeless inside an empty cartridge with a fuse inserted does wonders, however...
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The A Files
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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You could take SrNO3 (strontium nitrate) out of a handheld marine flare or road flare
(available at most automotive stores or boating stores) you would need to put the powder in the aluminum foil and put a little
bit of FFG where the fuse is.
you could use a sparkler if you wanted a longer delay, but those are hard to find in my town unless its July. 5 grams of
strontium nitrate will burn with an intensely hot/bright light for about 12-15 seconds.
Magnesium ribbon might work if you wrapped a 1' length around a CO2 cart about 10 times. theheat from the ribbon alone
may be enough to cause the gasses inside the cart to expand to the bursting pressure
I have seen butane bulbs that look exactly like the CO2 ones but have butane in them
they are for these mini welding torches I've got to think of a way to ignite the butane gas.
I could put it on some hot coals and have a circle of napalm around the coals, or I could use my .22 and shoot it from 20
yards with a tracer (would this work?)
[This message has been edited by SafetyLast (edited December 19, 2000).]
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
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Yes, Radio Shack sells butane cartridges that look like CO2 carts. They have narrower necks, which is supposed to keep you
from using them in a pellet gun. Oddly enough, the walls of the cartridge are actually thinner than a CO2. I've tried to burst
them but all I've succeded in doing is making a giant flame out the end. They're expensive, so I don't get to play with them
much.
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The A Files
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
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I use to play with those Butane carts,
I think butane turns to liquid at a lower pressure, which is why there so thin.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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*much* lower pressure. Why bother with tiny expensive butane canisters when 500ml butane/propane are so cheap?
Energy84
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: Earth
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okay, I've got about a foot and a half of Mg ribbon. how do I ignite it? will a simple match do it or does it take more than
that?
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Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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I dont think a match will be enough, unless you make the buring head touch the ribbon, maybe. I think you should use some
Potassium/Sodium Chlorate/Perchlorate mix ( I think they burn hot enough). If you dont got this stuff, just use a flare. I
would break or cut the flare (no point in using a whole flare for one light). Its hard to light with a lighter, so break off about
half the black stuff on the top of the flare and save it for the other piece.
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
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me and a friend made some 'napalm' and put a few co2 in it, i saw it coming but we did it anyway, the first one blew and the
rest went flying with burning napalm. but I was going to make a mortar that shoots a coke can full of napalm and maybe
sparkler shit with a cO2.
But napalm is the way to go if you can't get sparklers, it just takes fucken ages.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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Hey,Energy84...Try a peizo-electric micro-jet lighter (like the Crack smokers use).These burn about 10 times hotter than a reg.
lighter,should do the trick nicely.
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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i used play to with butane...i put it into big ballons to make some nice fireballs
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited December 21, 2000).]
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
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you can use a lighter to light magnesium, you'll be there for a little while...but it will light..
the easiest way is to use one of those mini blow torch things...or just use a blow torch...
and while where on the subject of blowing cylinder type objects up...
blow torch cylinders(the LPG kind you get here in OZ) go off like nothing else you have ever seen...
but er...don't be standing within 100 metres of it tho...and bring some ear muffs...
and of course...if you REALLY want trouble, set off a 20kg BBQ cylinder. - it'll launch a 2 story ladder over 20 blocks...
thats true too, a few months(a year?) there was a story on the news about a guy in sydney, and he was sitting in his van, and
he lit up a smoke..and BOOM!...somehow he didn't smell the LPG from the leaking BBQ cylinder in his van..
shattered windows for 4 blocks or something...and blew the ladder on his roof something like 20 blocks....thats a mighty big
bang.
as for setting off Co2 blubs, simply tape 4 sparklers to the side of a blub, and light them with a mini blow torch thing
i reckon creater makers are the best fun tho... cause there small, there loud... and there stable... none of this "you must wear
safety gear" crap... and no chemicals that could explode if you fart in the wrong direction....
...hmm me thinks i might go make a few...
[edit]
good thinking there nbk, but, why try to eat thru the metal, when you could eat thru the lead cap?
it would be a lot quicker, and you could dialute the acid depending on how quick you want it to eat thru...
but what acid eats leads?
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited December 21, 2000).]
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
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Obviously, since the whole powerlet will be immersed in acid, the acid will eat through the weakest spot.
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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The problem with a flamable gas bottle is that it won't explode, they have a pressure release valve that vents the bottle when
the pressure gets too high. What you want is a big CO2 cylinder, *much* higher pressure and some not have release valves.
Ones intended to be used in the home have a burst valve, others don't. Try a 1kg welding cylinder, they're cheap and strong
or steal a 3ft or 4ft tall one from a pub - Very big bag! (saw one go off on TV, they put it on a gas barbeque).
As for flammable gas leaks, a house in a street where a friend of mine lives blew up. The owner was a builder and left a
propane tank in the garage over night. It leaked and the there was a pilot light for the central heating boiler in the garage,
except the gas didn't ignite because there was not enough oxygen (must have leaked realquick!). Anyway, the guy went to get
his car out ofthe garage in the morning, lift the garage door, oxygen rushed in, BOOM! He got thrown back but was sheilded
by the door that went with him. I had a look at the house and it was comletely destroyed, the only room that (kinda) stood
was a glood floor room furthest away from the garage and I spotted the car under the rubble, it was about a foot tall!
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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My brother knew a guy that he played the bass with. His dad left a gas can open in the garage and it vaporised and oxidized.
The next morning he turned on his amp and it blowed the walls back about 2". I cant think how he felt (he said his ears rand
for 2 months).
Lost
Frequent Poster
Posts: 89
From:
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If it already oxidized (combined with oxygen)... It shouldn't still ignite, as the process would have already happened...
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-Lost
<a href="http://www.noneinc.org" target="_blank">http://www.noneinc.org</a>
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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I ment to be mixed with Oxygen, not to be Oxidezed on the molecular level.
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
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For a while now ive been meaning to make a big Co2 bomb with sparklers and one of those big soda stream Co2's, I think
they weigh about 1 kilo and there $20Aus from K mart.
Energy84
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: Earth
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Instead of using sparklers on a big canister like that, use KNO3+Sucrose. It'll probably heat a big container like that faster
than powdered sparklers. I find that the KNO3+SC mix gives a louder bang than sparkler powder. It's probably because it
heats it faster and bursts at a higher pressure. Oh, you can still use a sparkler for a fuse though. It burns hot enough to ignite
the mix pretty fast
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Soda Stream bottles won't explode.
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 102
From: Australia
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Anthony how come big soda stream bottles wont explode? Why are they any different to the smaller C02 carts?(the ones I get
are called sparklets). I think that a big C02 (soda stream) would explode no worries as long as you heated it with the right
stuff eg. Kno3+sugar. Dont worry bud, I'm not having a go at you, it's just that I disagree.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Because they're intended to be kept in the home (kitchen) they're designed to be safe in a fire. They have a burst valve in
the side ofthe brass connector which vents the bottle iif the internal pressure becomes to high. You could remove it and screw
a bolt in but you wouls have to re-fill the bottle yourself.
If you want to do a big CO2 bomb I'd recommend those disposable CO2 welding gas bottles, they have no safty valves, are
bigger and cost about half the price.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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<img src="http://www.geocities.com/spudguns_uk/co2bottle.jpg" alt=" - " /> (Just fixed up the UBB so it shows the picture.
NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited February 13, 2001).]
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 102
From: Australia
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Holy shit, thats what I call a Co2 cannister. Thanks man, I get it now.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
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Hey there,
I haven't read all the posts here because I'm very lazy, but I just thought I'd clear up that thing about CO2's physical states in
case someone else hasn't already done so.
If you have a canister of CO2 under pressure, it will be a liquid inside e.g. in those little CO2 canisters for air pistols. If you
quickly release the pressure, it boils away and this takes away heat. The temperature drops enough to freeze the CO2 (-78.5
C I think). This is dry ice. If you leave this outside, it sublimes (solid to gas), but if you put it in a sealed container, pressure
builds up so it doesn't sublime as fast. Therefore, it doesn't lose heat as quickly, and it can heat up enough to melt, forming
liquid CO2.
The mist that comes out of CO2 air pistols during firing is just that - mist. It is caused by the drop in temperature when the
pressure is released, and it is formed because the air contains water vapour. When the air is cooled, it becomes super-
saturated with water, so it is forced to condense into tiny water droplets, forming mist. If you shoot an air pistol in very dry air
no mist is formed.
deathdude
A new voice
Posts: 28
From: ambrige,PA,USA
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go to radio shack or so they sell small 6gram containser of iso-butane with a valve heat this it will explode good
(Thanks for this excellent tip. I suggest you go back to lurking. -J)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > gas explosions - Archive file
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rjche
Frequent Poster
Posts: 52
From:
posted September 21, 2000 07:36 PM
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A techinque used in behind the lines warfare to remove things like buildings, streets with sewer tunnels, etc, was use of gas
explosives. They can do a good job on removing isolated old buildings, but they will scatter stuff over a sizeable distance.
These are simple, not critical as to mix ratio, and easily obtained everywhere.
They use air as the oxidizer. Air weighs about 8 lbs per 100 cubic feet.
Almost all easily gotten fuels use a 1 to 15 ratio by weight, in air. They have to be volatile to use, or something like propane.
acetylene is more violent but propane is more powerful.
Acetylene is also explosive in an enormously wide range of ratios because it's about to explode itself at room temps. Above
15 psi gage, (30 psi absolute) it can decompose with violence. That's why the pressure gage on acetylene tanks is red-lined
above 15.
Thus a building 10x10x10 contains 1000 ft3 of air.
That container holds 10x 8 or 80 lbs of air.
At the normal carbueretor ratio for cars of 1 lb gasoline to 15 lbs air, you would need about 6% of 80 lbs for the gasoline wt.
That's about 5 lbs round numbers.

Gasoline weighs about 5 lbs per gallon, so
the thing comes out to 1 gallon gasoline for each 1000 cu ft of air. Easy to remember.
Using propane the ratio is about the same on a weight basis, but propane weighs about 4 lbs per gallon, if you measure it
that way. It usually comes in 20 lb tanks.
In many areas it is illegal for non licensed persons to transport larger tanks than the 20 lb sizes. This size is available
everywhere because barbeque pits use them, as do some camping trailers.
Gasoline and propane develop about 30 psi blast pressure in air at 1:15 mixes. The pressure goes up a lot in car cylinders
because the gas/air mix is compressed about 10 times and then lit, so the peak blast pressure approaches about 900 psi. If
timing is to early, the mix will detonate, and the pressure briefly goes to thousands of psi, and can break piston rings etc.
But back to the use of these things for demolitions. Few buildings can stand much more than 3 psi internal pressure. Some
hardened ones can stand 5, but 30 is way above anything you are likely to encounter.
Some blast shelters can take outside pressure but not internal pressure very well.
Calculate the force on a door with 30 psi on it for an exercise and an education.
Ground cannot resist more than about 15 psi. gas explosions in mines do not usually destroy the tunnels because they are in
rock, but in sewers large enough to stand up in, they will dig up the whole street and lay the dirt on top of the cars parked
along the sidewalks.
That is why some cities forbid dumping gasoline or solvents down the toilet or sink.
The mixture does not have to be in the whole building. Just one or a few inner rooms mixed properly can wreck the whole
thing because of the excess pressure.
This 30 psi is what makes the tennis ball guns seem so energetic.
Propane can be used through a very long small tubing, available everywhere. It can be injected slowly, then when done, and
after time is allowed for the air to mix properly it can be ignited via the same tubing by pumping salt water into it to the far
end. Then use a stun gun with one probe grounded to spark your end, and a spark will appear at the other end, to ignite the
mixture.
Or any remote flame source like a tracer can do it also.
This information is for educational purposes only. Doing this in a non wartime environment would be considered a serious
crime. However you may one day find yourself behind enemy lines if things keep deteriorating. Then you may have to defend
your homeland. The knowledge would then be lawful to use, and indeed the over-run government may give you a medal later
for your effort in driving out the enemy.
Some spec troops had a little card, and they would pace off the outside of a building, or use a photo to gage its volume, and
the card would give the best mixes for gasoline, acetone, laquer thinner, naptha, propane, natural gas, butane, etc. whatever
was stored nearby, or inside, and could be used.
The problem was measuring the gasses, but large errors were tolerated though with good results.
Most every pyro knows about acetlylene/oxygen, which goes directly into detonation, at normal atmospheric pressures.
As mentioned elsewhere, propane oxygen in pressure ratio 100 psi propane then add o2 till pressure reaches 300 will
detonate crude an fertilizer in a tank that can stant the 300 final psi.
It is fired by a glow plug in the tank, but the mix must sit a couple hours for the gasses to mix well.
If the filler line (1/8 inch metal tubing or less, has a valve on it, after injecting the oxygen, wait a couple hours and let a tiny
amount out to clear the o2 from the line.
Catch a little in a container, (baloon, condom,) and shut the valve.
Light the container, and if it puffs, you can set the whole thing of by lighting the gas allowed to slowly exit the cracked valve. If
the flow is not to great, the flame will go through the valve and down the pipe to the container, and fire it all.
This is tricky and only needed in an emergency when nothing else is available.
A propane tank can take 300 psi, if you seal up its pop off valve. Do test it with water pressure before using this however.
If you test it with air pressure, stay safe distance for if it busts you can be seriously hurt.
An auto sparkplug can be put into the tank, but its gap must be set only about .01 inches or you will not be able to spark it
easily. With a stun gun or neon 15 kv transformer, you can spark one with gap up to about .025.
Gas explosions using propane have been used to run moles out of their tunnels when they get to be a major pest. Acetylene
also works well for that.
These have been used also in hunting animals in burrows, but is illegal in normal times.
It could provide food in an emergency though.
Knowledge is power. Power is sometimes necessary to repulse unlawful power used against you, and to protect your rights and
property. Therefore, like food, you need some "stored" although you have no need for it today.
ezekiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted September 24, 2000 10:32 AM
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Interesting post.
However i'm not convinced about acetylene detonating when in contact with oxygen...
I know of a "bomb" that involves acetylene, it would not work if acetylene instantly combusted.
Also if it did spontaniously combust then oxy-actylene welding torches would not need a sparker to light them.
I found some figures for maximum and minimum parts of gas for explosion(or combustion) to occur...
Gase's (% by volume) Lower Limit Upper LimitWater gas (C + H2O) 7.0 72 Natural gas 4.7 15Hydrogen 4.0 75Acetylene 2.5
81Propane 2.2 10Butane 1.9 9
Ignition depends on method of initiation, uniformity of mixture, and physical conditions.
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Ezekiel
'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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So, if you were using gasoline, would you just dump the fuel on the ground and wait? or could you atomize it with a pesticide
sprayer or something?
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Explosives Archive
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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ezekiel,I think he meant that acetylene/oxygen when ignited,detonates easily (as in a room full of),not spontaneously
combusts on contact(?).
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"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
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Theoretically then, a way to get pressures above 10,000 psi,would be to ignite a high explosive into gasoline. When the high
explosive detonated and lit the gasoline, the gasoline would be being atomized at the speed of the explosion adding both
pressures together would result in an enormous amount of pressure, right?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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how is the HE gonna ignite the petrol? It would be next to impossible. Not to mention the HE would suck all of the oxygen out
of the area
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Explosives Archive
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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oh yeah, i have had REALLY small charges of AP put out pools of gas. it is cool to watch.
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...
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
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ok,you say it can put out pools of gas, but i was not talking about putting out pulls of gas, i was talking about instantly
atomizing a large amount of gas by a small high explosive charge, the optimal ratio would be one that the amount of air
being pushed out by the explosive, is the same as the tank of gasoline, and possibley a small amount of large chunks of
thermite or red phosphorus would be good to send out burning chunks of material, to insure ignition, but you were correct, i
did not specift this in my previous posts
ALENGOSVIG1
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it would probally just burn without exploding really because of lack of oxygen!
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Explosives Archive
Anthony
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From: England
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Now you're describing an FAE not a gas explosion!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
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Get a canister of liquid oxygen holding a known weight of gas (or rather, liquid), and put a shaped charge along its lenght to
split it nicely. Attatch a detonator and put it in the optimal weight of petrol. When the shaped charge is detonated, it'll split the
O2 canister along its length, releasing all the gas almost instantly. This, along with the blast from the detonation, will atomise
the petrol in the O2, forming a compressed, zero oxygen balance fuel/oxygen mixture. Remember that per gram, petrol
contains something like five times the energy of TNT. It'd be ignited instantly by the HE (especially if a few % of Al powder is
added to the HE in the shaped charge to raise the det. temp.), and would be INCREDIBLY powerful for it's size.
Now THAT would be fun to watch!!!
On a slightly less destructive note, small bottles (250ml) 2/3rds full of hydrogen, 1/3rd full of oxygen with a fuse sealed into
the lid make excellent projectiles from a pneumatic spud gun if they're made a bit heavier by attatching weights to the front.
And I don't think that is classed as making explosives by the law, but I might be wrong.
Mr Cool
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Posts: 991
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Something else I've just tried quite successfully: Using propane/oxygen in a 500ml coke bottle at 2 atmospheres of pressure
as a propellant in a sort of mortar. It had a fuse in the lid, and the launch tube was some PVC which fitted over the bottle
quite nicely, with an endcap and a small hole for the fuse. The bottom of the bottle was scored to make it split evenly. I
dropped the bottle down the tube, so that the fuse came out of the hole in the endcap. The projectile was a cast piece of the
resin used for fibreglassing surfboards, with a hollow cavity in the middle. An ignitor was attached to the fuse, and the tube
was buried in the ground. When I set off the ignitor, there were 5 seconds (2" of fuse) before it went off. The projectile went
straight up and out of sight.
Next I'm going to try to launch another fuel/oxygen bomb from the mortar, instead of the resin. I didn't check the condition of
the launch tube afterwards, so I might need a new one!
Mick
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From:
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the smarter idea, if you are looking for a pretty dam big explosion
is to detonate a BBQ gas cylinder(20kg size).
stuff mixxing propane freely with air...
altho you would get a pretty dam big blast..

you will get a bigger one detonating a BBQ cylinmder...
Anthony
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From: England
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How did you pressurise the bottle with the gases?
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
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Filled the bottle with water, bubbled in 168ml of propane, bubbled oxygen in until it was full. Then, I took the bottle out of the
bowl of water that it was in, and screwed the lid on. The lid had a valve and a threaded tube glued into it, which I could attatch
to my little oxygen cylinder, which has a built-in pressure guage that measures the pressure in the outlet pipe. Then I just let
in oxygen until the guage said 2 atm.
Anthony
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Posts: 2312
From: England
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I thoght that would have been a bit expensive, requiring a vlave for each charge. I suppose 1atm would still produce a decent
bang and you wouldn't need to go the bother of pressurising it? You wouldn't even need bottled O2 either, just a reaction that
produces O2. I will try it.
SofaKing
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A while ago I thought that a gas explostion could be produced using the reaction between H2O2 and MnO2 to produce oxygen
and NaOH and Al to produce hydrogen. Some Al foil,powdered MnO2,and powdered NaOH would be put in the bottle. Then to
activate H2O2 solution would be poured in and the reaction would take place. A simple fuse or e-match would be glued into
the bottle cap. The problem would be the reaction is very exothermic and the bottle might melt.
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Mr Cool
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The valve is a bicycle tire valve. They only cost about 30p, and the increase in pressure makes it significantly more powerful,
because you have twice the energy stored in the gas and the same amount of energy is released in half the time.
1 atm is still fun, but do use oxygen. If you use air, the propane/O2 is so dilute that it doesn't explode, it just acts like a little
rocket and shoots a few feet because all the gas rushes out the fuse hole.
Anthony
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From: England
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Thanks, will try soon.
Ctrl_C
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just my $0.02: acetylene + oxygen in balloon makes one hell of a loud boom...it echos off the valleys around my house 5
times.
speaking of, in chem today we were doing combustion rxn's (wow that class is boring...maybe i'll apply to teach it) and the
teacher said
"what does c2h2 + o2 = ?"
i replied
"a three foot crater in the snow in my yard"
he just kinda looked at me funny....i love when people fear me.....muwahahaha
Ropik October 17th, 2004, 05:23 PM

When speaking about BBC cylinders, what about the big tanks used by houses without pipeline for gas? Everyone saw(for sure)
what can do one exploding cylinder of propane to building, so this tank should do extremely extensive damage to anything in
vicinity... Many potential target for demolitions have these tanks. I bet that gas tank is much more easily cut than normal
building. My question: what is the best charge to perforate the tank and ignite the contents? Ribbon charge around entire
circumference? Shaped charge to just pierce the wall? Blast off the filling valve? Something like POL thermate/explosive
external charge? Using one normal propane(or acetylene) cylinder with ribbon charge to blast off the tank? Thanks.
EDIT: I thought about the FAE effect described in Anarchist arsenal and several other books, rather than incinerating
everybody close enough with burning gas vapors
NBK, are you sure that simply igniting the vapors will bring this effect? I would think that you must detonate the cloud with
some additional charge.
nbk2000 October 17th, 2004, 09:25 PM

I'd say a circular cutting charge on the underside of the tank, so that, when detonated, the liquified gas will be ejected straight
down and spread out as a ground hugging cloud of cold vapors, rather than being ejected up into the air where'd it'd only
make a pretty fireball, rather than an incinerating cloud of flaming death.
Be sure to including plenty of ignition sources around the perimeter of the target area to ensure ignition.

Imagine disabling the safety valves and setting a large fire around one of those things! It'd take quite a while to heat the
tank to exploding point though (it does contain about a ton of refridgerant afterall).
Reminds me of some TV footage I once saw of a calor gas bottling plant that caught on fire. Eventually, the main underground
storage tank exploded and the fireball engulfed several blocks!
nuclearattack October 19th, 2004, 06:58 AM

In the past i used to make explode camping propane tank. I did it just for fun with my friends (pyro and dynamite are in my
blood!), i used to lite some fuel tablets under the tank. It requires a lot to explode and sometimes the gas doesn't ignite.
However the explosion is huge expecially with heavy tanks that can reach a high overpressure in it before explode. With small
camping gas tank it takes about 1 minute but with 10l tank gas it can take also 5 minutes! However a good demolition charge
under the tank will do a good job for sure, some bengala sticks around the tank will do the rest to ignite the gas. Maybe that
using a thermobaric charge will ignite automatically the gas due to the high temperature reached?

Yes, that's the way primitive propane bombs are made: One would take two bottles of the gas, screw the gas cooker on one of
them, then put the second cylinder in the flame. Several minutes and off it go.
Anthony, I'm thinking more along lines of explosives, because large fire under this huge tank near anything valuable will
immediatelly attract firefighters, police and other pesky people(I am thinking about possibility of demolition using these tanks
in war time or something similar, not in crime), they will smother it and that's it. But... maybe... when you would use
something like pyrogel(napalm + asphalt + Mg + several variations of oxidizers and such), they probably wouldn't have
enough time.
Recently, I saw one of these tanks 20 meters from gas station. The station is closed at night, so when you lit the napalm fire
at midnight... I doubt that the station would get some mercy:).
nbk2000 October 19th, 2004, 01:19 PM

When a tank is heated so much that the pressure of the boiling liquid within causes it to rupture, that's called a 'Bleve' (Boiling
Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion).
They're quite dramatic. :)

This is what a 65 ton propane rail-road tanker car explosion looks like. Notice the water tower in the foreground for scale. ;)
http://odin.dep.no/archive/mupbilder/02/123/f0901015.jpg
And an aerial view.
http://www-pors.hit.no/tf/fag/i4695/indexn1.jpg
Looks like a tactical nuke strike, doesn't it? :D
Google reveals a wealth of factors that increase the probability of a successful BLEVE event.

In the first place, thanks NBK for the idea of googling. Maybe I am very dumb - I didn't figured this source out myself
:rolleyes: .
Second thing is that I didn't think that so short time is needed to make a BLEVE. This table (http://me.queensu.ca/people/
birk/research/thermalHazards/bleve/images/ttofail.gif) shows that as little as ten minutes can be enough - even for a large
tank :eek: . Thats data for accidental fires... Some really good incendiary around and under the tank("engulfing fire" in the
above table) should speed the process up further. Another found information was:
- Strong tanks are less prone to BLEVEs (Why?? :rolleyes: )
- High pressure relief valve (PRV) set-pressures increase both the risk and the hazards of a BLEVE
- If a tank fails when the liquid level is high and the liquid is uniformly heated to the PRV set conditions, the chance of a BLEVE
is highest and the resulting hazard consequences are greatest
- Blast overpressures from BLEVEs are generally low and the hazards are small compared with those from the fireball and
projectiles
- Projectiles from BLEVEs are the furthest reaching hazard (up to thirty times fireball radius)
- The set-pressure and performance of PRVs was found to play an important role in the severity and probability of BLEVEs
Also check out This (http://www.scienceinpublic.com/freshinnovators/2004/colinyoung/colinyoung.htm), according to it there is

cheap and quite easy anti-BLEVE solution. Watch out for it, but... anybody seen it?? I'm suspicious that it's just another patent
without real applications.
EDIT: Sorry NBK, but this wasn't written as sarcasm - I AM really that dumb.
nbk2000 October 20th, 2004, 06:51 PM

In the first place, thanks NBK for the idea of googling. Maybe I am very dumb - I didn't figured this source out myself
:rolleyes:.
Sarcasm is a double-edged sword...it can cut the wielder as well as the target.
That patent idea sounds rather lame. Using the liquid from the bottom to cool the top? Uh, isn't that going to increase the
rapidity of the vaporization of the liquified fuel? It is, after all, a closed system, so there's no evaporative cooling effect.
BLEVE's, to date, have been accidental. If BLEVE's were going to be purposefully made, for use as weapons, then the
conditions of their deployment could be optimized.
The fireball effect is what would be most devastating, I'd think, especially in the close confines of an urban canyon. I don't
know how many kilo-calories/kilo propane gives off when it burns, but it'd be interesting to calculate it and see what the
equivalent yeild would be for some of the well-known explosives.
I'm sure the radiant heat effects would be capable of nuke-like damage at some distance, such as non-contact 3rd degree
burns, flash-blindness, firestarting, etc.
BLEVE'ing a small tanker of less than a 1,000 gallons capacity, easily drivable through tight city streets, would handily
devastate a sizable portion of an urban core.
The problem is getting it hot enough to BLEVE before the fire services can either stop it or evacuate the immediate area.
You know, electricity can substitute for fire, and with none of the attention drawing attributes...
Many multi-KW electric resistance heating elements inside the tank, connected to a high-amperage power source such as the
feed into an office building, would be sufficient for the task.
Once the fuel was sufficiently heated, explosives rip the tank apart and incendiary elements ignite the fuel vapor in a highly
efficient manner.
Claymores and other deterrents would be emplaced to protect the BLEVE device from possible detection/tampering/removal
during the requisite heat-up phase, but would not be activated unless the device was being tampered with or approached.
The problem with a fuel explosion in the open air is that, once ignited, the rising fireball acts as a convection engine, pulling
the burning fuel BACKWARDS, towards the center, rather than expanding it OUTWARDS, where it could cause further damage.
Finding proper structural confinement would help to push the fireball outwards, especially if there was any kind of overhead
cover to prevent the rising fireball.
Anthony October 21st, 2004, 02:59 PM

I can see the theory behind that patent: The top of the tank is kept cool (and thus maintains integrity) until all the gas has
escaped via the pressure release valve.
Since in an intentional BLEVE, any PRVs would be disabled, it's a moot point :)
The chance of a BLEVE occuring if there is no PRV is pretty much 100%

Perhaps and underground car park below a high rise office building would provide good confinement? Or would there be
problems with lack of oxygen?
Liquified propane has an energy density of about 25MJ/litre.
The 1000gal tank example would contain roughly 25MJ x 3.8 (gals) x 1000 = 95 000MJ or 95 giga-joules!
The density of liquid propane is 0.58, so that 1000gal would weigh 3800 x 2.204 metric tons.
Latent heat of vapourisation is 425kj/kg. So to vapourise the entire tank would require 425kj x 2204kg = 936700kj or 937MJ
Which is 260Kwh
If your heaters ran from an industrial 415v feed, at 100A that would be 41.5kwh, so would require about 6 1/4 hours to
vapourise the entire tank.
Although, I have no idea if the tank would hold up to that, it'd probably explode in much less time.
nbk2000 October 21st, 2004, 03:54 PM

A car parking structure is exactly what I was thinking. :)
Although an above-ground one would be better, as the fireball would radiate out into the surrounding streets as an expanding
ring (seeing chessy 'ring-o-doom' effect from 'remastered' Death Star explosion :rolleyes: ), thanks to the overhead cover
provided by the structure, rather than be confined within a building, as it would if it was an underground garage.
An intact building full of charred corpses doesn't visually inspire fear like the scene of a demolished city center, complete with
smoking corpses and burning rubble does. Think Bogata bombing here.
The tanks contents wouldn't have to entirely vaporized prior to the BLEVE, as long as a sizeable portion of it was, because that
would provide enough heat to vaporize the remaining liquid with mimimal loss of energy.
And, of course, the tank could possibly be reinforced to be extra-strong, making the release all that more sudden.
BTW, how many kilos/pounds of NG or TNT would it take to equal 95GigaJ of energy?
Anthony October 21st, 2004, 07:04 PM

The specific combustion energy of TNT is 4.6 MJ/kg
So: 95 000MJ / 4.6 = 20 652kg
20 tons!
Obviously the blast effect wouldn't be the same, as burning a load of lard would release more energy per unit mass. Few
people can get ton quantities of TNT though, but anyone can get propane.
There'll be some awesome heat coming from this thing though! Like you say, nuke-like radiant heat effects.
Knowing that an explosion occured in a crowded city centre that released the energy of 20T of TNT, looked like a nuke, felt like
a nuke should give the media plenty of material :)
nbk2000 October 21st, 2004, 07:38 PM

Throw some 'dirt' ;) in with it for that lovely glow-in-the-dark effect and you could blog it into having been a backpack nuke
that fizzled. :D
The more the government denies it, the more credence they give it, as why would they say it wasn't a nuke when everybody
saw the fireball, the nuke-like effects and, most telling, the radiation?
Conspiracy theorists will keep the myth alive forever, just like JFK and the 'magic' bullet. :rolleyes:
It'd be enough to get the fear-juice flowing, which is what terrorism is all about, not body counts.
nuclearattack October 22nd, 2004, 10:52 AM

To Ropik:
i think that when it's said "strong tanks are less prone to bleve" it's referred to the fact that a lot of more energy and heat is
required to make a bleve.
I'm thinking about methane tanks...my car is double powered so it has 2 methane tanks very strong. The methane is pumped
in those tanks at 250 atmospheres but they are able to resist at 300 atm and more. Those tanks are 1,5 cm thick!
A very nice bleve! But for the moment i can't buy a new car!
They should give a good bleve also without heat, just only a shaped charge and the natural high pressure of this tanks will do
a nice job.
Anthony October 22nd, 2004, 04:06 PM

A strong tank is more likely to hold the pressure while the PRV vents the tank.
In most BLEVE situations, the tank is heated, the gas pressure inside rises untill the PRV opens and starts venting the tank.
From there it'd be a race between how fast the liquid propane boils, creating pressue, and how fast the PRV can vent it. If the
PRV can't keep up, the gas pressue will overcome the tensile strength of the (weakened by heat) tank. Obviously a stronger
tank will hold more pressue, and the higher the pressure, the faster gas will escape through the PRV.
I suppose that technically a high pressure methane tank wouldn't BLEVE, as there is no liquid to boil. I'm sure the effect would
be much the same though :)
Myrol November 6th, 2004, 09:53 AM

Yesterday, I have seen a film about Science for example is it better to be Fat or Thin in the daily life (the Thin Guy won the
match, becaue there just some pro's where the Fat Guy could bet with, cold weather F.E.). There was also a GREAT test how
"unbreakable" some thinbgs are. Well, they smashed things like Sodacans, household Dewars, drinking glasses cups and so
on. The drinking glasses were amazing, a massive Baseball Bat made of V4A Steel!!! couldn't crack the glasses, a Wooden
one of course not!
So they have done the spectacular way: A small Caravan was filled with all these things and prepared with two big Balloons
1,5m Diameter filled with stochio Propane Oxygen at 5Bar. The Ballons hold the pressure because they were very strong.
BAAAAM, they fired the Gas and it blew the trailer into baby-sized pieces thrown over 200m away. The Guy searched after some
things, and unbelieveable THE FUCKING GLASSES DIDN't BROKE :eek: :eek:
I cant fucking believe that. This mix is very powerful and it was pre-compressed so you get some extra strenght because there
was more Gas in the Ballons as with 1Bar ordinary. The Detonation looked similar to 2kg ANNM. Holy Shit........
nuclearattack November 6th, 2004, 10:07 AM

Ah! I love these kind of movies!
There is one thing that i didn't understand: why a baseball bat is not able to crack a drinking glass? :confused:
If you let fall a drinking glass it will break in pieces...i'm confused!
Can you explain it to me? :(
Myrol November 9th, 2004, 02:49 PM

It's very Easy: The Drinking Glasses were made of Poly carbonate a nicely hard plastic made with a synthesis wich needs pure
Phosgene!!!! Its the same thing like in the Ruhrgebiet, theres a Factory where you can see around 1m of an absolutely
translucent pipe......its crazy but through this 30cm thick pipe goes liquid HYDROGEN CYANIDE in amounts to kill towns
instanteus :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Back on topic: I made some calculations about the Detonation pressures for some
Gasmixes. Hee are the results:
Hydrogen:Oxygen 6:1 101,4Bar

Hydrogen:Oxygen 2:1 106,9Bar
Propane: Oxygen stochiometric 132,7Bar
Butane: Oxygen stochio 190Bar
Ethylene: Oxygen stochio 202,6Bar
Acetylen: Oxygen 1:1 276Bar!!!
Well, you can see obvious the winner. The mix with Hydrogen is somewhat curios for me......umm, doesn't matter....Butane
and Oxygen seems to be really powerful.....shall try that :D I think, the Pressure for the stochiometric mix of Acetylene and
Oxygen should be even higher as this one but I'm lacking the VoD for that mix....if someone can help, please!
P.s. The FAE-mix Oxirane Air has a preessure of around 19Bar.....ordinary Gasoline well mixed in Air just 10Bar......imagine
what happens in Oxygen :D :D
ProdigyChild November 9th, 2004, 07:03 PM

Rather than heating the tank by electricity, I'd over-fill it with compressed air until it ruptures. That should be possible with
normal electricity power withing a reasonable amount of time.
Or even, if someone arrived with a truck + high pressure oxygen tank and filled in some of that.....
The reaction should yield enough energy to rupture the tank. Starting combustion requires some work, though.
Filling would require some tools. Something you can weld onto the surface of the propane tank and then drill a hole (protected
by pressure), then put oxygen in.
There are welding methods, that allow such, really!
Do I have to draw a sketch?
nuclearattack November 10th, 2004, 08:08 AM

Oh! Polycarbonate it's really resistant. Bullet proof glass is made with polycarbonate and also anti riot shields are made with
this plastic.
However i'm impressed that it has resisted to the gas explosion, not only for the overpressure but also for the temperature
involved.
This winter i want to make some tests with gas explosions just to have some fun and to make some nice movies.

to nuclearattack: I saw a rocket exhaust cover made of CaCO3 strengthened polycarbonate so I guess it can withstand high
temperatures.
to Myrol: Nice work with that calculation you have helped me a lot and answered some of mine question.

These polycarb drinking glasses are pretty off topic. I'm not surprised they didn't break in the gass explosion, why would they?
They're not brittle enough to fracture from the shockwave, and because it's an open container, the over-pressure won't affect
it.
Back on topic:
You don't necessarilly have to go to the trouble of welding a fill-port into the propane tank whilst it's full. You could modify an
empty one, and then fill it.
The trouble with filling the propane tank with compressed air to rupture it, is that a BLEVE will not occur. For a BLEVE, the liquid
propane must be heated to boiling point. Electricity is also silent, whilst people might notice a large, noisy compressor running.
Filling the tank with a stoichiometric amount of oxygen would yield an impressive explosion. But enough oxygen to fill a 1000
gallon tank might be expensive, and it more complicated than a normal BLEVE.
ProdigyChild November 10th, 2004, 06:58 PM

Does 'Bleve' neccessarily mean, that **ALL** liquid would go into gaseous state if the container was opened (=pressure set to
1atmosphere)? I can hardly believe that!
If you open a fire extinguisher, the (over-heated) CO2 partially turns into snow from the cooling effect of the part that really
turns into gas.
My gut feeling tells me, that such effect (quantitive vapourization) would only occur at pressures similar to the ones you have
for gases that can't be liqified by pressure at normal temperature. Like nitrogen. 200bar to get a useful specific gravity. A half
filled propane tank has perhaps 0.4g/cm3 average density. This density as a result of compressed gaseous propane??? No,
beyond my imagination.
Not one single propane tank would stand that! They don't have a few inches wall thickness, do they??
Given, that was true. Then the rupturing tank would alread cause a terrible shock wave of a hundred bar in the vicinity of the
container, flattening houses and trees...
So it can only be some portion of the propane that turns into gas. Much of the liquid is simply scattered around and
evaporates upon contact with warm surrounding objects.
Correct me, if I'm wrong.
Boomer November 11th, 2004, 12:59 PM

I guess you can calculate the percentage that instantly vaporizes!
I have no values at hand for propane, but for comparison water will do: It takes approx. 2500 kJ to evaporate a litre of water,
while it takes 4.2 kJ to heat it one degree. Since the energy to gasify it must come from the heat it already possesses, it
would take 2500/4.2 = 595C above boiling point = 695C!
Water has a higher specific energy, but also needs more heat to evaporate. If this equals out somehow, you are probably
right that not all turns to gas instantly. But a second later there is so much energy from the flames that the rest will follow
anyway.

If you heated that CO2 fire extinguisher till it exploded (saftey valve disabled), then you wouldn't get any "snow" (dry ice)!
Yes, there will probably still be liquid propane in the tank when it explodes, but I believe that it will be like super-heated water
at this point, and flash to vapour once the pressure drops.
Afterall, BLEVE = Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion :)
akinrog February 10th, 2005, 02:23 PM

As for bleve, some idea came up my mind following the NBK's idea. Instead of using heating elements, what about using (a
few) microwave magnetrons to superheat the fuel in the tank.
In this manner it might be possible to eliminate visible glow of a electric heating element. I believe microwave can (super)heat
and thereby pressurize the fuel in the tank. Can this work?
nbk2000 March 31st, 2006, 06:29 AM

http://www.dcfp.navy.mil/mc/video/truckfire.mpe
The explosion of an LPG tanker truck in germany.
2Mb download.
(Note: the URL is exactly as it should be, don't add a 'g' to the '.mpe')
rick6 August 5th, 2006, 03:41 AM

The BLEVE video is truely a beautiful thing.
I can't help but wonder though if it would be much more effective to load a tank of propane into a cargo truck, drive it to the
heavily populated urban area of choise and atomize the cargo with HE.
Maybe back it up with an incindiary just for good measure (assuming war time conditions -of course).
c.Tech August 5th, 2006, 11:57 PM

Another BLEVE video can be seen here (http://www.fugly.com/videos/3489/tanker_explodes.html).
Instead of the propane tanks you have been taking about, this time its styrene which rains molten toxic styrene on people
:D.
Gives me some ideas of dispersing chemical weapons, or TIMs (read the TIM thread under battlefield chemistry).
OneWhiteNation August 21st, 2006, 09:31 AM

I myseLf am very interested in the concept of gas explosions. Mainly that of the forementioned propane. Unfortunetly my
technical knowledge on "shaped charges" is poor and lighting a giant fire under the tank would attract unwanted attention. So
how could one get one of these things to go off immediatly?
Unfortunelty do not have access to compressed air either, so overfilling it, would not work either.
I know it can't be that hard considering the two teenage colombine kids made two of them out of 20 gallon tanks, neither went
off due to faulty wiring though. Anyone know how they did it? Ive been checking the web for any designs on a propane bomb
or even any information on how the duo made thiers, but to no substantial end.
Yes, that's the way primitive propane bombs are made: One would take two bottles of the gas, screw the gas cooker on one of
them, then put the second cylinder in the flame. Several minutes and off it go.
Could you go into more depth? I think one of the colombine reports I read said something about a can of gas taped to one of
the bombs. I don't understand how you mean it in your text though.
And how can one disable the pressure release valve on a standard 20 gallon propane tank?
OneWhiteNation August 24th, 2006, 05:04 AM

OK, no one gonna aid me in my pursuit of knowledge? Fine!
I was also thinking about using a 12 gauge armor piercing round affixed to the cylinder to puncture the tank and
simeltaneously igniting a few model rocket engines. [Also affixed to the cylinder with the flame ends pointing inward toward
where the round is to puncture the tank] Any thoughts? Would this work or would the rapid release of the gas extinguish the
flames form the model rocket engines? Would this even explode, or would it simply create a very far-shooting flamethrower?
The model rocket engines could be set off remotely easily enough or even simply with a time delay circuit, but how could one
get the 12 gauge round be set to go off remotley and simeltaneously?
Chaosmark August 27th, 2006, 06:47 PM

Since you seem to think you're above reading the Rules, you get to sit through my lovely rant before getting to the
information I've included. We absolutely hate people who don't read the rules. You have absolutely NO EXCUSE either,
because at the top of the newbie reply page is a huge lengthy text telling you to READ THE RULES! They're there to keep you
from making moronic mistakes like the ones you've already made: first post(s!) outside the Water Cooler, requesting
information without contributing ANYTHING to the Forum, and then getting mad when we don't respond to your (spoonfeeding)
request within 2 days. Sit down, shut up, and UTFSE.
About the engines

Why would you even want to bother with the model rocket engines? I can see no point in doing so. At best, the rocket engines
would ignite and spin around in a circle doing jack, and the tank blows up, spreading said engines around a bit if it doesn't
incinerate them. At worst, nothing goes off and the jury gets to laugh at pictures of a propane tank with model rocket engines
attached.
Tips
Why don't you either A) UTFSE to improve your technical knowledge of shaped charges or B) think up your own method of
setting one off, actually test it, and then post it up for all of us to see and use?
Or you could even rely on C) this link that I happened to find within about 20 seconds of searching the Forum (http://
www.roguesci.org/theforum/pyrotechnics/4297-propane-cylinder-high-flow-discharge-unit.html?highlight=propane+tank).
festergrump August 28th, 2006, 03:11 AM

OneWhiteNation,
You're in the right place (RS.org) and you seem to have a pretty good grasp on the English language, so don't ruin the little
bit you do have going for you with a common 14 year old's insistancy on answers to lame questions, ok?
You've been here a week. What threads have you read so far, besides maybe... parts of this one? All those things you didn't
understand from the previous half of this thread could be searched and understood more completely before you opt to play
'whack-a-mole' with NBK...
Recommended thread reading within the RS Forum would be:
The Beast has Fed Upon... (Water Cooler)

Sticky: NEWBIES! The Forums' unwritten rules...written down. (Water Cooler)
Banned For Life! (Entire Section)
That should hold your seemingly short attention span long enough for me to pop myself some microwave popcorn and see
your name appear in the first mentioned thread, I should think at the very least. [pop... pop...]
Remember always one thing: When someone says to you to think outside the box, they are already assuming you have
thought within the box first. I'll leave you to figure out what I might mean by that. (if you read on some, you'll know!
Somehow I feel I talk to the wind, though).
nbk2000 August 28th, 2006, 04:42 AM

OK, no one gonna aid me in my pursuit of knowledge? Fine!
See, I give a guy a chance, and he proceeds to fuck it off by going "Fine! I didn't need YOU anyways!".
:rolleyes:
In that case, why even bother posting here in the first place?
From his username, I'm assuming he's a white seperatist, which I have no problem with.
But when you act like a wigger, it makes me embarrassed of my race, and then I become angry at the source of the
embarrassment.
Act like a WHITE man by helping yourself, and NOT like a NIGGER looking for a handout! :mad:
OneWhiteNation September 1st, 2006, 06:37 PM

That hurts my feelings NBK.
All I'm trying to do is ellicit information from people who are more educated on the subject than myself. To the other guy, I
did do a search on "propane" before I posted. The title of that post did not lead me to belive that I would find anything usefull
inside. Of course now having seen it, I understand a little bit better the subject I am researching. However there are still
questions I have that I cannot find the answers to online or from people I know in real life.
Previous posters on this thread have stated "safety valve disabled", but then give no information on how to accomplish this.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Ok and here me out on this. I have another idea for exploding a propane tank. It involves:
A propane tank
A hotplate
An inverter
A car battery
A duffel bag
Just from the items, it should be evident the method I am thinking about. But let me say it anyway. The hotplate is rested
snugly to the bottom of the propane tank, pheraps even duct taped heavily to it. The hotplate is plugged into the inverter and
the inverter is affixed to the car battery. All the items are placed comfortably into the duffel bag when finished. Then when you
want to explode the tank, you simply turn on the hotplate and leave the scene.
You guys think it would work?

Would the hotplate generate enough heat?
I think this method would eliminate the "smoking tank" problem that would render other methods useless in a public area.
If the safety release valve could not be disabled, how long between the activation of that valve and the explosion? Is there a
loud hiss that accompanies activation of that valve?
I apologize to those of you who feel I've been rude. I'm just one of those guys who likes to get as much information on a
subject before I begin testing. So as to avoid wasted funds and time on experiments that could have been avoided by simply
asking you fine folks.
+++++++++++
Good grammar and and proper spelling are a Nazis best friend. Use more of it in the future. :) NBK
c.Tech September 5th, 2006, 06:31 AM

All I'm trying to do is ellicit information from people who are more educated on the subject than myself.
The only problem here is that asking for information without first contributing something is called a spoon feeding request.
You should have known this if you read the rules.
But then again, newbies Rule s? :rolleyes: Typical ca se of a newbie post, your lucky you haven t bee n banne d.
Alexires September 5th, 2006, 12:12 PM

OneWhiteNation - ....And you think NBK gives a flying fuck about your feelings?
On another note, has anyone seen the movie "A Long Kiss Goodnight"? Although in the movie they say its a 2 part explosive
or something like that, I can see it being a BLEVE with internal coil heaters inside the tank.
When we are talking about a truck containing propane (or LPG) I always imagine something like this (http://www.meco.co.id/
lpg.jpg).
Now, I don't know if it would be possible, but assuming you could get your hands on one of these tankers, would it be possible
to insert some copper coils INSIDE the tank without compromising the structural integrity too much.
If it were possible, then these coils could be heated using the battery (that is kept charged by the running motor of the truck).
Interesting website with lots of figures on LPG here (http://www.elyenergy.com/sngtechdata.htm)
So lets see -
Based upon this (http://www.hansontank.com/propanetanks/propane%20tanks%20for%20trucks%201.jpg) tank (looks kind of

perfect for a war time BLEVE), the makers (http://hansontank.us/lpg-tanks.html) say -
That the biggest one on this table can store 1150 gallons or 4352L (lets say 4400)
4400L is about 2552kg of LPG which would require 1084MJ of energy to vaporise (thanks Anthony).
This is where my calculations are stuffed. Thats how much energy it needs, so if we kept a car running with the alternater
hooked to copper coils in the tank, how long do you think it would take to reach that energy?
You can get alternators that are rated at 250 Amps.
If that means 250 Amps per second at 12 volts, thats 3000Js-1.
Thats 0.003MJ a second which equats to roughly 100 hours before detonation....
Balls. Thats a bit too long. A few tanks of fuel later or one extra big fuel tank and you have a BLEVE. *sigh*
Anyway, it was just an idea. I'm a bit doubtful about those calculations, but still, it was worth a try.
I don't want to ask anyone to correct those calculations, but that propane tank looks pretty useful right?
Chris The Great September 5th, 2006, 09:28 PM

Not all the fuel needs to be vaporized, only enough to raise the pressure inside the tank to it's bursting point. Generally, this
will be probably in the range of 1500-2000psi (for 20lb tanks, should be the same for the big ones too). And to make it
better, the whole tank doesn't need to be filled with gas, since most of it is full of liquid propane. Generally, they only fill
propane tanks to 80% capacity (of course, 80% capacity will be the figures they use for the maximum the tank holds) so there
is not a huge volume you need to pressurize...
nbk2000 September 6th, 2006, 10:53 AM

What about a simple pipe mortar on the top of a LPG tanker that'd be used to fire a cable over a high-voltage line, using that
as a means of rapidly heating the LPG to BLEVE point?
Alexires September 6th, 2006, 01:14 PM

This website here (http://www.baftechnologies.com/afs_lpg.htm) says the tanks are built to withstand a pressure of 1000psi.
Lets assume that the tank withstands 1500psi before it ruptures.
How would one go about working out what temperature increase would be required for the pressure to go from 250 psi to 1500
psi?
I tried to use the Ideal Gas Law, but that only works for low pressures.
Here is what I did:
As the volume of gas is equal before and after (I hope) we can say that
P1/T1=P2/T2
Now, we know that the temperature before heating (T1) is 293K (lets say the tank is at 20*C), and the pressure inside the
tank is 250psi which is equal to 1824689Pa.
The pressure we are looking for is 1500psi or 10443135Pa. These pressures are absolute pressure, not gauge pressure.
Substituting and all that, we get an answer for the T2 being 1676*C *sigh*.
Van der Waals equation is meant to work better, but I don't know how to use it *sigh*. Any help gentlemen? I gave it a shot
and ended up with 17908K which is wrong.
FUTI September 6th, 2006, 05:47 PM

You made more then one mistake. You should take into your calculation that with rise in temperature you also vaporise
portion of liquid inside the tank and that also rise the pressure inside the tank not only simple gas law equation.
Use Van der Waals since it has it merits...at least you can estimate using that equation for a given temperature maximum
pressure that gas can have before turning liquid so you can get amount of energy used for heating up the liquid and the
"border" pressure obtained.
Asume that yor tank have x kg of liquid and that remaining 20% of volume is vacuum (this is not true but makes first step
easier you will get slight overshot in your result but fair estimate). Now you take the room temperature as starting point. Find
the border pressure for the gas to become liquid at that temperature (you use T, estimated V, known a and b). Use this (or
just little lower) as starting pressure. That should give you na rough estimate of amount of gas phase in this second step (you
have estimated p,v and T,and Van der Waals a nad b are table values I hope). Then you calculate the temperature that gas
phase should have so that tank burst (you use calculated n, estimated V, known a, b and tank bursting pressure). Repeat the
step one for this new temperature. This is clearly overestimate. Now you go back to square one. Cycle that calculus couple
time until the iterations give you some reasonable solution (temperature and pressure at which that amount of gas is really
gas not liquid).
Amount of gas phase goes up in each cycle due to vaporisation and that with gas heating generate pressure. I hope that this
has some sense it is been long time since I done with the physical chemistry tests. If anyone notice a glitch in my proposal
please correct it.
D-Fens September 10th, 2006, 10:20 AM

Couldn't you use thermite on the propane tank? According to Wikipedia the rupture on the tank will cause boiling of the liquid
due to the sudden drop in pressure therefore large amounts of vapour will be given off.
nbk2000 September 10th, 2006, 02:04 PM

First of all, don't quote anything from Wikipedia here, as they don't know shit-all about explosives.
Secondly, as a liquified gas boils off, it carries away heat, causing the remaining liquid to get colder, until it reaches
equilibrium with its surroundings, usually a slow boil.
So, you puncture the tank ABOVE the liquid line, it'll vent until it gets so cold from evaporation that it's a very slow boil.
Puncture it BELOW the liquid line, and it'll spray out liquid at a constant rate until the liquid is level with the hole.
And neither case will result in a BLEVE, as that depends on the sudden release of superheated fuel.
And invoking Thermite like some magic talisman, outside of proper context, is an almost sure fired way to get banned.
30yearstoolate! September 10th, 2006, 06:58 PM

On this show called Brainiac, I saw the above mentioned done. A "charge" of thermite was used above a 20 pound propane
tank. This created a huge fireball of course.
But I believe it didnt rupture the tank but more cut a hole and light the gas that escaped. Which then continued to burn as
more and more gas evaporated in the tank. This gas was propelled outside and burned. Not a "TRUE" BLEVE by defintion but it
was damn cool.
fractional distiller November 6th, 2006, 08:21 PM

I know an individual who would really like to try this seeing as it is extremely accesible to everyone. This friend wants to take
the standard 20lbs propane tank and use it as an explosive device. Theoretically since the propane tank holds 20lbs of liquid
propane witch is about 90% propane with propylene, butane and or butylene additives equalling up to the other 10%.
This friend wants to make a self conatianed package. He has a tank that he has completely emptied of all propane gas and
made sure of it becasue he is drilling a whole in it and placing a threaded holder in and has welded it into place. Then placed
a spark plug into the threading and screwed it in along with an apoxy binder to assure no gas will be realeased and to ensure
that the vessel can be pressurized.
The first encounter he runs into with his rig is that he wants it to be self contained so his approach is to find the upper and
lower explosove limit of propane witch is 2.1%-9.5%. Then he figures if he were to calculate out what 9% of a 20lb tank hold
and fills the rest of the tank by weight with molecular oxygen O2. The second is finding a licensed individual who will fill the
tank only to a certian weight with propane or O2 and not notice a spark plug sticking out of the side of bottom.
Do you think that after the gasses have been allowed to mix for 2 days inside the canister that since even though the propane
is in liquid state it does have the oxygen reguired for a detonation after a power supply is added to the spark plug? Or will this
just catostrophically fail and end up wasting my friends time and money and killing him?
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated and if this is possible my friend has found himself a project to occupy himself
with for the next two weeks of school and will make all neccesary actions to try to film and post this event if it were to ever
happen theretically of course.
I find myself confused.
Is it even possible for a explosion to take place because what was mentioned earlier is the upper and lower limits for an
explosion when the propane was mixed with air. So will the liquid propane even explode when mixed with O2 because the
propane is liquid so what concentration would be needed for it to explode when delivered a charge from a spark plug or will it
just simply sit there?
This is another problem I face the equation for the combustion of propane is
C3H8 + 5 O2 ==> 3 CO2 + 4 H2O when a stioch equation is made for this it requires 21% propane and 79% o2 for a
combustion to work. So how can it be explosive at air saturation of 2-9% when 21% is needed for a total combustion in the
first place.
I hope I havent wasted your time on this its just I would like to at least be able to contribute something to this fine forumn
that I have been comming to for so many years now. Even if that contribution is some pictures of a detonation if its at all
possible.
Chris The Great November 15th, 2006, 09:52 PM

Air is 21% O2.
You won't be able to get enough O2 into the tank, since propane easily turns to liquid, while air will not at the pressures the
tank can hold. So you'll find that you reach the maximum pressure the tank can take (250psi) long before you have enough
oxygen added.
nbk2000 November 16th, 2006, 06:06 AM

I'd be worried about the possibility of spontaneous ignition as the oxygen is mixed with the fuel.

NBK is right about safety AFAIR even petroleum industry fill its tanks under inert gas no matter are they empty or full to
prevent oxidation of oil products placed in it. It is slow proces but makes nasty stuff that acts unpredictably.
Chris make good analysis about efficiency of the proposed device. Mixed in right proportion max posible "output" expresed in
MJ/kg of mixture would be low due to the fact you can't make liquid oxygen under those pressure limits. Also mixed phase
nature of that system makes it tricky. It will make blast...but how, how good, wich way etc. is beyond my knowledge.
If anyone is willing to risk his life he can try to make liquid oxygen by pasing oxygen through a flask cooled externaly by
liquid nitrogen and then try to place that in the bottle that will be pressurised with propane minutes before detonation.
Does anyone find peroxydes usable in such device? Is there some blueprint or patent related to that?
tijo77 November 20th, 2006, 06:34 PM

For curiosity purposes, I had experimented mixing Oxygen and Butane at least 4 times into a 2L soda bottle.
I tried to mix them with a 1:1 ratio by allowing approximately the same filling time to each gas (from that we can conclude
that there was enough fuel/oxygen to permit combustion).
The four attemps were tried to be ignited electrically. Two of them were made to light about 1g of blackpowder and the last
ones were made to light at least 15g of a recrystalized Sugar and Potassium Nitrate mixture molded to fit the bottle.
Every ignition system worked but I had only two explosions due to the pressure made by the gas created by the Sugar/
Potassium Nitrate reaction.
The Fuel/Oxygen were pressurized. (At a point that the Butane was liquid into the bottle). *From other expirements only
involving butane, it seems that a given container cannot be filled more than a certain ammount of butane (proportional to its
size) until an equilibrium between the tank and the container is reached.
We had a lot of successful explosion by filling the bottle with pressurized oxygen and few milliters of different liquid fuel (such
as Naphtalene).
Maybe that the Butane gas did not light because of its density comparing to Oxygen so they had not been mixed togheter.
But it seems fairly propable to me.
Sorry for mistakes, since english is not my native language.
Yafmot March 24th, 2008, 09:47 AM

In the early '70s, a Navy munitions train went off in the west end of the Southern Pacific railyards in Roseville, CA. about 3 1/2
miles from where I lived. It was 8:00 AM, and the whole house shook, jerking me from a sound sleep (it was a Saturday). My
Mom came running in (I was about 17 at the time), and said "Get up! The Roseville railyard's full of bomb craters!"
Taking this to mean we were being invaded (Sacramento was a HUGE target during the Cold War), I yanked on my pants,
grabbed a twelve guage, stuffed my pockets with slug & 00 Buck loads, and ran out into the street, expecting to see bad guys
parachuting into the area. She came running out after me, yelling "No, No! An ammo train went off." Some of the neighbors
were already out mowing & watering and looking at me like I was nuts, while I grinned back sheepishly, grasping a shotgun in
one hand and holding up my Lead-laden pants with the other.
As soon as I got back inside, my friend, Mark was on the phone, asking if I heard what was going on. I said "Yeah, I've gotta'
see this!" so he went and got our other friend, Pete, and we headed out to Antelope, a small town East of Roseville where the
incident was actually taking place.
The cops had Antelope Road blocked off about a third of a mile from the tracks, at the edge of a huge wheat field. There was
a 7-11 store right there, so we parked behind it and began walking across the wheat field toward the action. A cop yelled that
we really shouldn't be doing that, and if we got hurt, he wasn't going out there after our dumb asses.
The Boxcars were loaded primarily with 500Lb. Mk82s, but also some 750, 1,000 and 2,000 pound weapons, none of which
were fused. Occasionally there'd be a low order det and, in a few cases, a partial high order. The bomb filling was Comp-B. By
now, it's a couple of hours into the whole affair, and things are warming up nicely. On the track adjacent to the Navy train are
some full propane tankers and, on the other side of that, a trainload of lumber. The wood has long since begun to burn, but
because of the stacking it's from the outside-in. This means that the propane is being heated from both sides, with runny,
oozing explosives on one side, and a trainload of lumber roaring away on the other.
About the time we'd gotten a third of the way across the field, one of the bombs went high order and flung a jagged piece of
red-hot casing through the wall of a boiling hot tanker. You may have seen the newspaper photo on TV during one of those
disaster/reality type shows. The fireball was easily 500 feet across and filled with railcars that had been tossed into the air like
toys, along with a huge cloud of lumber fluttering around in the sky.
What the still picture couldn't depict, however, was the strange behavior of the overpressure. It began contracting first at the
bottom, which had the peculiar effect of sucking all the airborne stuff, and some of the loose detritus on the ground, into a
small area, almost a pile. So now theres a bunch of bombs, overturned propane tankers and twisted wreckage, liberally
heaped with flaming wood.
While all this was going on, we stood there, absolutely dumbstruck, as the shock rolled across the field and nearly knocked us
down. This was almost immediately followed by a scrap of casing about 10" long which whipped between our heads and half-
buried itself in the ground about 50 feet behind us, setting the grass on fire.
After we'd stomped down the fire, one of my friends decided he needed a souvenier of the event so, you guessed it, he bends
over and grabs the big piece of shrapnel that just missed us, burning the piss out of his hand. My other friend was working on
a slushy he'd gotten at the 7-11, so we dunked his hand in that and I pried the metal loose from the ground with my boot &
began pissing on the artifact, to cool it off. My friend got angry until I explained that this was the only way he was going to get
the thing home. We spent the rest of the afternoon watching explosions and gathering up chunks of Comp-B that were raining
all over the neighborhood
So, what have we learned from all this? Well, for starters we've confirmed that heating the propane under pressure adds
immensely to the explosive force of the vessel rupture. Suborbital boxcars have a way of illustrating this.
Second, you don't have to heat the propane until the tank's rupture point is reached. These rail tankers ostensibly had
operational rupture disks, none of which were sprung. This means that the BLEVEs were acheived well before this critical
temperature/pressure was reached. All it took was a high order det adjacent to it, with sufficient shrapnel to initiate structural
failure.
Third, a wood fire is adequate to reach this heat. You don't need thermite or anything fancy.
Fourth, keep your distance!!! Use a 30-06 or similar to break the thing, since it's obvious these explosions are capable of
flinging big chunks of metal a very long way
Fifth, if you're going to pick up big pieces of burning hot metal, get some fucking welding gloves!!!
A couple of other tidbits. For one, NBK is exactly right about expansion cooling. Even tanks that have been heated for hours
will be too cold to touch after they rupture. The cooling is such that there is almost always some residual liquid in the bottom
of the vessel's remains.
Also, you think you might get a det out of a spray of gasoline and an HE initiator? Forget it. You may have been to an airshow
where they simulate bombs. Big concussion, big ball of flame & black smoke. The way they do it is dirt simple. They make a
small indentation in the ground (mostly so you can't see the device from the crowd area), lay down & connect a stick of 60%
straight Dynamite in it, and lay a plastic bag with a gallon of gas on top of it. That's it! If there was any chance of the gas
going high order, they wouldn't do it so close to the crowd. Especially not the "Wall of Fire."
Bert March 24th, 2008, 12:37 PM

You may have been to an airshow where they simulate bombs. Big concussion, big ball of flame & black smoke. The way they
do it is dirt simple. They make a small indentation in the ground (mostly so you can't see the device from the crowd area), lay
down & connect a stick of 60% straight Dynamite in it, and lay a plastic bag with a gallon of gas on top of it.
We generally have used a zig zag of det cord under the bag of gas.
Yafmot March 24th, 2008, 08:37 PM

It seems like the thermal input from the detcord would be kind of marginal. When these operators are going for a record in
the Guinness Book, it's no dice if there is even one "cold shot" (lots of vapor, no flame). All that work for nought, just 'cause
their Wall of Fire had one little breach in it.
The Warbird shows are a bit different. They have to sequence a lot of the charges, so there are many crossed lines. With
detcord, you have to use standoff clips to keep from prematurely activating some of the elements. Frequently, even though
the crossed line isn't detonated, there will be a fracture that will stop the det progression dead in its tracks. Too many duds,
and your airshow's a dud.
Incidentally, I've seen where, on numerous occasions, a bag would just turn into a cloud of vapor and not ignite even in close
proximity to a good shot, or even if the vapor and the fireball intermingled a bit. I'll have to ask about thaqt the next time I
talk to those guys.

I too have seen failures to ignite with detcord, kinepack, and "dynamite". If one has Ti or Zr sponge available and puts a
small volume in a sandwhich baggie on top of the HE and under the gas bag, one may see less of these failures. The added
sparks may or may not be desirable, depending on the effect you want. Some are said to have used fine steel wool instead of
the more expensive metals, but I was not impressed when I saw this tried.

I'm posting this here, as it has already mentioned oxy/acetylene. I mostly use these as noise makers, but this weekend I
used this for a legit reason. I'm making a lawn roller out of an old water tank. Tank has one convex end and the other has a
concave end. I ground off the weld and found that it was pressed on before welding. I drilled a hole on the opposite end to put
in a crowbar to bang out the free end. Damn! There was a baffle in the middle of the tank, welded in. I almost trashed the
idea (crowbar wouldn't break the welds), but then I thought about using oxy/ acet to try to blow out the end of the tank.
The first attempt was under charged, but I did see that the end did move a little. I quadrupled the charge to about the size of
a kids soccer ball. For safty sake, I aimed the tank bottom toward the woods (3/4 mile deep), twisted a trash bag up and
poked it in the hole, filled it with the gases and put 5 inches of visco onto the bag. Lite the fuse and took cover. It was
excellant! The bottom came out at high velocity, and travelled about 150 yards thru heavy brush. The first 10 ft of brush had a
hole thru it the size that a 2 foot cannon ball would have made. My nieghbor came over as he thought the house had
exploded from a propane explosion. It took a while to find the bottom. It wasn't all beat up, so I can use it. The burr was
polished off by the blast, and the tank baffle was also blown out. Wow, what a labor saver!
iHME April 15th, 2008, 05:36 PM

Creative use for oxy/acetylene torch for sure.
Anyway I found a raghead bomb making video in my E&W folder labelled "GAZ" I think it was originally uploaded by nbk. The
video decribes the making of a electrical igniter and the screwing it to a propane tank. After demonstrating the plain propane
route, they add some oxygen to the propane cylinder and blow it up to show the power increase.
I uploaded the video to rapidshare.de so that you could take a look also.
If some kind soul who knows arabic could translate the texts and if possible the speech on the video. I'd be more then happy
to subtitle the video.
http://rapidshare.de/files/39130397/GAZ.wmv.html
megalomania April 15th, 2008, 11:33 PM

We already have a thread about that video, and the other ones from the same source, and a request to translate the audio
into English. At the very least a new voiceover in English could be dubbed into the files to replace the gibberish. That, and
cutting the weird anti-American animation from the beginning.
All of the gibberish files and the videos are on the FTP in the UPLOAD/JIHAD folder. Nbk and I actually stumbled on the site
searching for nbk2000 on google. They even made an arabic translation of my acetone peroxide page from my website. That
particular form of flattery is creepy. Most of the files are completely unreadable, being arabic squiggles. I recognize a lot of
the content as being translated crapbook material anyway, so it is no great loss. They also had a few translations of russian
and American military manuals. The only thing that looked interesting were the illustrated diagrams of a few improvised
explosive devices, that and the videos.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Thing that you can make with "Acetone
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DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
posted September 28, 2000 11:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello i wanna now if there are some other thing`s beside AP putty that you can make with AP????(AP Plastique? ore some
thing else)Because i don`t have Smokeless Powder here,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!!<<<>>DarkAngel<<<>>!!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried making AP plastique using wax and petroluem jelly, the big problem was it required confinement to detonate, not much
goof if you want to mold it around something.
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 346
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
many of us don't have access to smokeless powder... and PingPong balls can be used (less nitrated form of nitrocellulose)
and styrofoam can even be used if ping pong balls cant be found, but that is not as good as either form of nitrocellulose.
Basically if you want to mix AP with stuff to play, thats generally ok as long as you do it with SMALL amounts and you test
things thoroughly for sensitivity, spontaneous detonation etc.etc.
------------------
I think moshing is a sign of what christians would call "the apocalypse"
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/jhon_bus/</a>
Azazel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 91
From: ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
has anyone made the shit before with petrol... is it just like adding it to napalm made from styro and fuel ?
is there anything to be cautios about when using this method?????
how much AP do u use? Ratios ?
skipper
A new voice
Posts: 17
From: Entenhausen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
I had very good experiences with AP ( plasticized ) with usin' Vaseline.
The values are between 30 - 35% Vaseline and rest AP.
But i think you also can use Paraffin to make it like plasteline
Hope i could help you
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tell me how did you have detonate it?,,,And was it really more powerfull than just Ap??
DarkAngel
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited November 03, 2000).]
BobsRAC
A new voice
Posts: 34
From:
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Is there any real advantage to the plasticized AP, sucha s power increase, or is it just mouldability? Does it become more
stable?
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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I think that if you putt some vaseline to it that it`s more stable but i dunno if it`s more powerfull,,skipper please reply?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,<<<>>Dark Angel<<<>>
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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Just stick to smokeless powder + acetone for the AP it will give it more brissance and you can make some cool shapes with it
by placing it in the bottom of a plastic cup and letting it harden or mould it onto the bottom of one of those compressed cans
of butane stick a fuse into it and let it harden put a burning petrol rag near it this should produce a nice fireball
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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If you look at the top of this post / \
|
|
You can see that i have no acces to smokeless powder so i wanna now if there other thing`s that you can Mix/Do with Acetone
Peroxide
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Dark Angel
m3nth
A new voice
Posts: 11
From:
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mixing ap with anything that makes it more stable such as the items mentioned above will not make it more powerful (think
percent purity of the substance). decrease in volatility = decrease in power for the most part. now if you're mixing it with rdx or
tnt... that's another story (why you would do that is beyond me)--but vaseline... expect it to be less powerful and harder to
detonate.
Bander
A new voice
Posts: 31
From:
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Azazel, I have used a mix of gas and styrofoam once when I had run out of ping pong balls. I wouldn't reccomend it though.
I forget the exact ratio I used, but it was about 60% AP and 40% "napalm". Carefully knead the AP into this goo, after a while
it should have a starchy texture. One this drys out it is not sensitive to heat. Tough it is moderatly sensitive to shock. The
power was about 70% normal AP, and left a nice little crater in my driveway from a nickel size piece being detonated
unconfined. It's not a very useful mix because of it's low sensitvity, but it's fun to 'play' with if you ever out of nitrocellulose.
[This message has been edited by Bander (edited November 05, 2000).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Mixing it with double base smokeless powder should certainly increase the powder due to the nitro in the smokeless! But I
believe that even mixing it with ping pong balls will raise the DV/brisance as it raises the density of the explosive, its probably
a compromise between using enough to raise the density and not using so much that you "dilute" the AP too much.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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Thats what I was getting at unfortunately DarkAngel is unable to get any double base SP
I might just order some through the mail using a credit card (good or bad idea?)
as for ping pong balls, it is too expensive compared to SP but if you are only going to be making a little bit of AP putty it is a
good idea as there is no age restriction on ping pong balls
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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If you mean order it from the US, (and you're not in the US)I would say BAD idea, first off the company selling it will refuse to
send it over seas, if it is a controlled substance you could get into trouble with your customs, also sending hazardous material
by air is a serious offence.
You could just buy a bunch of blank rounds and empty them, still cheaper than ping pong balls.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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Hey!!,,,,,,,,,How much does Smokeless Powder costs and how much is that?,,,I can`t get it here but i just wanna now it
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,<<<<<>>>DarkAngel<<<<<>>>
Ho ju
Frequent Poster
Posts: 308
From:
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a pound should be about 20 bucks american. remeber to get the fast burn rate stuff. it makes a big diffrence, the grain size
that is.
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-Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay... So if you know to much, you will go
broke!!!!
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
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maybe an idea? If you look at makeshift arsenal they say about annm plastique, the normal annm is a rock hard putty thing
(i think) So if you used the same process with the ap to make the annm plastique you could get a plastic ap explosive. Only a
guess though.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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Thanks to Jumala if got a little bit of Smokeless Powder,,Now i wan`t to make some AP Putty but when i whas reading the
Makeshift Arsenal i didn`t saw how much Ap you must ad to SP.
Can someone help me?
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--

Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a <<>!!!
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited January 29, 2001).]
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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Hello??
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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Smokeless powder is not to hard to obtain.
if you live in a country where you can't buy it you have the choice to buy blank cartridges which are filled with Double Based
Powder. They are a bitexpensive, but if you need it, they are available even in fucking germany.
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DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
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NightStalker are you from Germany?
Im from Holland.
People i need to now the proportion`s for Ap Putty
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--

Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a <<Forum>>!!!
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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there are no set proportions to AP putty, I usually use 1 tablespoon of Acetone to 1 tablespoon of double base smokeless
powder
(in a ceramic bowl)
I mix that with a bamboo skewer for a couple minutes until the SP is completely dissolved.
I then add 2 tablespoons of Acetone Peroxide
(I think you can use more AP, but im not sure) and dissolve that into the slurry.
It usually takes about 2-3 hours to dry
and it looks shiny and sparkly (because of the AP crystals).
Can anyone tell me why it is partially colored green around the edges
10 brownie points for the person who gets it first
I think its because of these things called taggants that are in the SP (not sure though)
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
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Just mix in as mutch AP as possible.
the more AP the more Power.
Bubba
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From:
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I think the green might be due to them adding a substance which reduces muzzle flash. All militarys use it and I think several
of the regular powder makers incorporate it into their mixs. It shouldn't affect anything, just looks wierd.
no_name_available
A new voice
Posts: 25
From: germany (?)
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i just want to remind that plasticized RDX as c1 c2 c3 or c4 has a lower power and explosion velocity
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
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Yeah, but it's advantages outweigh the disadvantages, because you can mould it around stuff and pack it into crevices, etc. It
would be easier to handle and use.
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"I'm not a slave, to a world, that doesn't give a shit!" -Marilyn Manson
Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
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Quote:
Bander
One this drys out it is not sensitive to heat. Tough it is moderatly sensitive to shock. The power was about 70% normal AP,
and left a nice little crater in my driveway from a nickel size piece being detonated unconfined. It's not a very useful mix
because of it's low sensitvity, but it's fun to 'play' with if you ever out of nitrocellulose.
Ok, this sounds intresting to me... How much is the stability increase? How heavy of a blow is required for detonation, and can
it be detonated using a flame (assuming it's hot enough, I was thinking a charge of flash powder or something similar...)
Seems to me that this would be the perfect blasting cap if it were molded correctly. Even though it would have to be larger due
to the decrease in power, it would be worth it to me for the increase in stability and what seems would increase shelf life.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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No, RDX has about twice the DV of AP.
no_name_available
A new voice
Posts: 25
From: germany (?)
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i just wanted to say that mostly all plasticized explosives got a lower DV than not plasticized explosives.
i think blackadder got it.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Ah, you were meaning that the plasticizer acts as an impurity, lower the DV of the explosive.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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i would think it would raise the power of the explosive because it would add to the confinment.
------------------
...
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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NOt if the plasticizer is explosive
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Explosives Archive
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
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Right! Active binders and unactive binders are different on the effect.
An active binder is an explosive by itself like nitrocellulose, polynitrovinyle, polytrinitrobenzene, ....
Most of those have higher VOD than AP...and thus can give a better effect than AP alone.
Oxygen balance also plays a role; if you have an oxygenrich explosive like tetranitromethane ; then it would be no problem
incorporating an inactive binder; you'll get a much better performance and VOD than TNM alone....
There is thus no simple answer and generalisation is useless in this very field!
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Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
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Why is it that PBX's always seem to be a solid explosive and a liquid binder? Why cant you have something like methyl
nitrate, and mix in something like cornflour to make a paste, for example?
Also, you might be interested to know that HMTD/NC/AN makes a good explosive putty with acetone, or a PBX with
nitromethane. It sets like AP putty if acetone is used, but is more stable and you can make a zero oxygen balance by
adjusting the amount of AN. The AN provides extra oxygen and a lot of gas on detonation, the HMTD raises det. vel. and
sensitises it, and the NC raises det. vel., binds it and raises the density. A very good explosive, but I recomend using a bit of
HMTD/NC putty to set it off as it isn't very sensitive to flame. It does detonate from flame, but not reliably.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 348
From: UK
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i tried mixing hmtd with some blackpowder, dextrin and water. it set rock hard and when i set it off it went far fatser than black
powder....i'll have to test some properly sometime.
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 223
From: UK
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Mixing HMTD with BP is not the same as AP / HMTD with NC / Smokeless (Double base with NG). The NC and NG in the Double
base really adds to the gas volume, but I would think HMTD with BP to be a bit of a waste of time

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP rocket fuel? - Archive file
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The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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I mixed some ap with petroleum jelly about 15% AP by weight. It seems to burn like other fuels I've made. I plan on testing it, but I w onder if anyone thinks that this mixture
will detonate when subjected to the confinement of a motor casing and nozzle.
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
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I call that a bomb, and it would be. AP is a high explosive, not a low order explosive suitable for rocket motors.
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
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I call that a bomb, AP is a high explosive, not a low order explosive suitable for a rocket propelant (spl). The reason it burned is because it w asnt confined, if you search for
some AP threads you will see it burns sometimes unconfined, and almost always explodes confined.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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oh wow, i would not try and cast the AP jelly mix. you could get a few crystals situated next to each other and they would easily detonate. that mix is to unstable for me. i
would not bother with it. if you do decide to though, set it off from like 20+ feet away and make sure the rocket case is made from cardboard, not PVC or metal or something.
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...
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 64
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A pipe bomb under the guise of a rocket hhehehe.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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I was thinking being in a low concentration mixed with a filler perhaps it could work.
I did think about having clumps, so the AP would have to have quite the small particle size. What I can't think of is a good way to thoroughly suspend and disperse AP in vasline.
Would anyone happen to know how AP reacts to a shear when suspended? I think fumed silica (aka cab-o-sil) might be a helpful additive in improving flow and and the matrix
of the suspension. It w orks with pigments and mineral filler in epoxy resins anyw ays.
AN is used in composite rocket fuels at high temps and pressures, I'm just wondering. Worth a try anyways.
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 171
From: Heaven
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if you wanna make rocket use a rocket-propellant - NOT a high explosive dammit!
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You can't survive the life!
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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I agree with eveyone here, this is not a safe idea. But you could dissolve the vasiline in some white gas to get a uniform mixture.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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AN works great in rocket comp.'s because it's an ideal oxidizer,but as an explosive it's rather sleepy;AP,however,is desperate to explode!.It would be great if you can find some
way to stabilize it and make a suitable fuel;I'm all for experimenting;just do it from good and far aw ay!.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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you could make a sorta impulse jet outa AP and something like pressed BP. doing this in layers would provide a wuick thrust and then a controled burn, quick thrust, controledd
burn...etc but this could be very dangerous. even if you use a thin layer of AP and a think layer of BP any crack would make the think explode. didn't the military have some
hairbrained idea about sending a rocket into space by using a nuke explosiont propell it? this is sorta what i am getting at but the explosion of AP, of course, wouldn't come
close.
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...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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They sure did! I remember seeing soemthing about it on TV, I think it included footage of a launch, although they probably used HE charges instead of nukes!
I don't see why everyone is jumping on theReal, so w hat if it won't w ork? It's still a good exercise in doing it and finding stuff out along the way. Hell, it might just work!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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So I had this dream...
I mixed 20g of AP, 10g of Fumed Silica, w ith 70g of Petroleum Jelly and mixed under high shear. In this dream I had a nice VariAC controlling the mixer and a 20ft extentsion
chord. Luckily nothing happened.
In testing, a very lucrative dream it was, 1g w as burned in the open, just a nice flare up. 2g and 10g was then tried, always the same result, but as mass increased so did the
burn time.
Next I dreamt I put some in piece of 3/16" tubing open at both ends, inserted a piece of red visco and flames shout out the lit end at first but pushed some material out the
other end as w ell. No bang. Next I dreamt I crimped one end. I weighed out 15g and got all that I could in the piece I had cut, not very big. It flared up and moved a little, not
useable yet. I made another one w ith 20g, crimped one end completely and the other about 3/4 the way from being closed. It moved about 10ft and went "pop". Being just a
pop and not a crack I think the deflagration built up too much pressure and ruptured the casing. It didn't sound like any AP detonation I've ever produced. So it may still work, I
just need something heavier. I kept thinks small just in case I got a cato, which I did.
The explosives propelled rocket experiment w as called the Polaris Project and it w orked. Though never tested with nukes, models w ere tested w ith 1/4lb charges of TNT. The
rocket looked like a cone w ith a parobolic shaped bottom with a hole in the center. Every so often a charge would fall from the hole and go off about 1ft from the bottom of the
rocket. If I remember correclty only 200ft altitudes were ever reached before the project was cancelled. A private company how ever did do some more work w ith that method
of propulsion. Instead of using explosives, three lasers were focused onto a piece of ceramic suspended by w ire below the rocket, it would heat up so fast that air would
combust. Thus creating a small explosion that would propel the rocket. It need many more small boosts how ever, about 3/second, power supplies were just to heavy for that
method.
NASA originally came up w ith the idea. It's cheaper to build and detonate a nuke than it is to lauch a shuttle plus we were getting rid of them at the time. It would be feasible
save the whole radiation deal.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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I think the idea w as to use the nuclear propulsion in space where the fallout w ouldn't be much of a problem.
As for the AP petroleum jelly idea, I can imagine some problems:
The mix is similar to a heavily unbalanced plastique, so I'm pretty sure it won't make the deflagration/detonation transition by itself, but if you had a cato the low order
explosion could be enough to initiate the remaining fuel. I don't think the risk is that great though.
What is your impression of the pow er of this composite as a propellant?
I would think that the specific impulse would be rather low .
PS. resist the temptation to increase the AP percentage, as this w ould make it overly sensitive.
BTW, AP is heavily oxygen deficient so you probably get quite unpleasant combustion products.
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
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I think the project was called orion. Yes it was tested with HE I think C-4, the full sized craft would have looked like a giant bullet. It would have been massive, they were going
to have everything on it, an example is 3000lb barber chairs. It never happened because launching it would have used mutliple nukes and been terrible for the environment.
There might have been a less ambitisous (sp) project more recently.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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AP is dangerous enough as it is as an HE, why even bother trying this? Accidents are not fun.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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3000lb barber chairs?! What the hell do you need those for on a space rocket?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
From: somew here in florida
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I dont know but high accelleration has an effect on humans that happens to shatter your bones leaving you a quivering mass of jello !
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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Perhaps it was Orion, I know it was the name of some heavenly body.
I don't think increasing the AP would do anygood I want to try a heavier w alled motor casing.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
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riding a nuclear blast shockwave?!?!
that would be like 100's of g's
can you say liquification?
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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After a few more attempts I gave up on the idea. To harness the useable force creates enough confinement that it goes "boom" 4/5 tries. What I learn? I can't say I really
learned anything except that I couldn't the idea to work. Oh well, booms are always fun, so long no unintended targets are blasted.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1103
From: Guess
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The nuclear rocket is explained by the guy who came up with the idea in a book called "The Curve of Binding Energy".
This is a kick ass book about nuclear w eapons and the science behind it, terrorist uses, easy sources of the fissile material (no longer since this was in the 70's and this book
caused a huge scandal back then), and all the crazy shit they were planning to do with nukes.
It'll probably be near impossible to find this book in a library, though it is available for sale at <a href="http://w ww.amazon.com" target="_blank"> www.amazon.com</a>
The great thing about the nuke rocket was that instead of having to build superlight and rickety spaceships, you could build massive ships like spaceborn aircraft carriers. No
piddly sponge baths, actual showers. No sleeping attached to a wall, you could have an actual room of your own.
Of course, this all required a total of several HUNDRED nukes to be exploded at a rate of like 5 (maybe more) per second, each one larger than hiroshima. The launch pads
could be based in africa. Help the poor starving AIDS infected niggers into the space age. Hell, you could even bring a few w ith you (as fallout! HAHAHA!)
If you've ever seen the apollo moon rockets launch and thought that was awesome, just imagine one of these babies launching. A blinding column of pulsing light stretching
towards the sky and the whole earth shaking, the clouds parting like a finger from God poked the sky.
------------------
"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to dow nload the NBK2000 website PDF.
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 230
From:
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um...even though you've abandoned the attempt...it wouldnt have worked anyw ay. the reason rocket engines work the way they do is becuase they produce rapidly expanding
gases that are forced out of the nozzle at high velocity, providing thrust. AP is very oxygen deficient and doesnt produce very much (any?) gas. it probably consumes more than
it produces.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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Its an explosive, it produces gas.
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
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When mixed w ith vaseline in low percentages the vaseline burns as w ell lotsa soot and gases given off very rapidly. I still don't think I was getting detonation, just deflagration
and the motor catoed. I just gave up cause I'm too lazy to pursue it. Other and safer motors and motor designs exist.
Al Koholic March 1st, 2003, 11:24 AM

Well if one were to keep the OB realllllllly poor it might not detonate at all like Microtek said. I w ould try making a mix w ith as little AP as you can. If you have something that
will burn w ith incomplete combustion still under confinement w ithout exploding it would be ideal fr my idea.
Could you then attach some sort of oxidizing gas cylinders like N2O to the rocket? What I mean is you have this AP/Wax/Vaseline mix burning up in the upper portion of the
engine casing. Then below that you have an empty space which has a couple hoses leading to it and the combustion products have filled. Here is where you lead an oxidizing
gas into the chamber and complete combustion of the intial combustion products occurs and the temp/pressure goes wayyyy up. The AP mix being only a source of vaporized,
partially oxidized fuel.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C ollodion - Archive T h r e a d
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ALENGOSVIG1
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Posts: 766
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Belo w is information taken from t h e b o o k " t h e s i l v e r s u n b e a m " . I t i s a b o o k o n p h o t o g r a p h y b u t h a s a g o o d section on
collodion. I thought it would be worth posting
Chapter VII.
C O L L O DIO N.
IN 1851 Legray first suggested the application of collodion for th e receptacle of the photographic picture; and in the same year
Messrs. Archer and Fry published a detailed account of the practical m ode of its application. Collodion is a solution of gun-
cotton in ether and alcohol; and gunco tton, of which the re are several varieties, is cotton or linen fiber (that is, cellulose or
lignine) altered by com bination with peroxide of nitrogen and probably with nitric acid. C otton consists chem ically of carbon,
hydrogen, and oxygen; whilst gun-cotton contains an additional elem ent, nam ely, nitrogen, which com m u n i c a t e s e x plosive
tendencies to several of the m etalloids. The altered cotton em ployed for photographic purposes is not the sam e a s g u n - c o t t o n
proper; in the first place it is not so ex plosive; It is, secondly, almost perfectly so luble in alcohol and ether, which is not the
case with gun-cotton. It is denominated pyroxyline. Pyroxyline is soluble also in acetic ether. W hen this soluble cotton is
dissolved in a mixture of ethe r and alcohol, and afterward poure d upon a piece of glass, it leaves on evaporation, when of a
normal condition, a transparent film; whereas gun-cotto n so dissolved, or xyloidine, (another form of altered cotton,) leaves
an opaque film after evaporation.
Cotton or ligneous fiber is transform ed into pyroxyline by imm ersing it in ' a m ixture of nitric acid and sulphuric acid; the latter
s e e m s necessary only to concentrate the nitric acid; for neither sulphur nor any of its oxides are fo und in pyroxyline by
analysis. This, although the accepted theory, is not satisfactory, because it is found necessary to a dd water to certain
specim ens of nitro-sulphuric a cid. Another reason for the use of sulphuric acid arises from the fact that pyroxyline is soluble
into a gelatinous form in nitric acid, bu t not in the m ixture of nitric and sulphuric acids. Gun-cotton may be precipitated from its
ethereal and alcoholic solution into a fibrinous m ass like the original, alm ost. This curious fact exh ibits quite an analogy
b e t w e e n s o l u t i o n s o f s a l t s a n d t h e m i n e r a l k i n g d o m , a n d t h e g e latinous solutions in the organic kingdom. In the fo rm er the
precipitate is either am orphou s or crystalline, as in chloride of silver and carbozotate of potassa; whilst in organic solutions the
precipitated ultimate atom s s e e m to exist, even in solution, in the form of fiber. This peculiar fibrinous deposit is thrown down
by a dding water to the mixed ethereal and alcoholic solution of pyroxyline, because this substance is insoluble in water. For
this reason the necessity of using only Concentrated ether and alcohol is apparent; another deduction is equally apparent from
this circum stance, which consists in the em ploym ent of such iodizing m aterials in the preparation o f sensitive collodion, as are
soluble in ether and alcohol, and in discarding those which are soluble principally in water, or only partially in ether and alcohol.
Collodion containing a small proportion of water is thick and flows unevenly, and when dry is not quite transparent; whilst the
film from anhydrous collodion is very thin, transparent, and uniform, and flows on the surface of glass very easily.
Preparation of Pyroxyline.--For this purpose the finest cotton or the best Swedish filtering-paper, or old white cotton rags are
procured. These materials, especially the first, are not quite pure; a sort of resinous cem ent adheres with great tenacity to its
fibers, and m ust first be disso lved before the cotton is fit for transform ation into pyroxyline. The cotton is therefore boiled in a
solution of carbonate of potassa in the following proportion: take one hundred parts of rainwater, two parts of cotton, and one
o f c a r b o n a t e o f p o t a s s a . T h e s e m aterials are m aintained at a boiling temperature for a few hours, after which the cotton is
t a k e n o u t a n d thoroughly washed in several waters, and then left in clean rain-water for at least twenty-four hours, stirring the
s a m e from time to tim e, until every trace of the alkali is rem oved. It is then take n out, pressed, a nd dried in thin layers
spre a d u p o n c l e a n s h e e t s o f p a p e r i n t h e s u n o r o n a s t e a m - b a t h . C a r e m ust be taken that all m oisture be entirely expelled.
In this condition it is ready for the action of nitric acid. Certain rules have to be m inutely o bserved in regard to the tem perature
of the nitric acid, the quantity of water which it contains, the leng th of tim e o f i m m ersion, and the intim a t e m ixture of the
ingredients; for as these cond itions vary so will the pyro xyline. If, for instance, the acids a re too strong, or the tem perature too
low, the pyroxyline will be m uch heavier than the weight of the cotton used, without apparently having, undergone any other
outward change. Such gun-cotton will p roduce a thick an d gelatinous collodion, giving rise to streaks in the film. If; on the
contrary, the resulting pyroxyline is less in weig ht than the cotton introduced, or a bout equal to it, this indicates that the acids
are too weak or the tem perature too high, whereby a portion of the pyroxyline is dissolved. Such a species of gun-cotton is not
wholly soluble in a m ixture of ether and alcohol; it yields, however, a collodion wh ich flows easily over the plate, is very
adhesive to the glass, and yields a soft negative. Any little particles of dust that m ay fall on the plate are liable to produce with
this collodion transparent specks on th e positive or negative. The rule, therefore, on the whole is to steer b etween these two
resu lts, in order to obtain a pyroxyline in which the cotton fiber shows an incipient gelatinization in the acids. W h e n t h e
operation is successful, the weight of the dry pyroxyline will be som ewhere about twenty-five per cent heavier than the cotton
from which it was form e d .
No. 1. Formu la for the Preparation of Pyroxyline.
C o m mercial sulphuric acid, spec. grav., 1.843 at 60 Fahr.,. 24 fluid ounces

C o m mercial nitric acid, spec. grav., 1.457 at 60 Fahr.,. 8 fluid ounces
W ater, 7 fluid ounces
Cotton, 1 ounce.
T h e v e s s e l s u s e d i n t h e p r e p a r a t i o n o f p y r o x y l i n e m ay be large porcelain or glass evaporating-dishes, sitting closely in the

cover of a water-bath, m aintained at a temperature of 150 Fahrenheit. Each dish is furnished with a pane of glass, fitting upon
it as a lid or cover. Let the water-bath be first raised to the indicated tem perature; then pour the sulphuric acid into one of the
dishes, add to this the water, and m ix intim ately by stirring with a glass rod with a rounded end; finally pou r in the nitric acid ,
and perform the same operation to insure an intim a t e m ixture. The temperature of this m ixture will rise from 15 to 20 degrees
a b o v e t h e p o i n t r e q u i r e d . R e m ove the dish, therefore, from the bath until the temperature falls to 150. The tem perature can
be lowered by stirring the m ixture with cold stirring-rods or spatu las of porcelain o r glass. W hilst the acids a re cooling the
cotton can be divided into about a dozen lots, and each l o t m u s t b e g e n t l y s e p a r a t e d i n t o a l o o s e c o n d i t i o n . A s s o o n a s t h e
proper tem perature h as been attained, the dish is reinstated in its position in the water-bath, and the cotton is introduced one
lot at a tim e, so that each is carefully pressed down beneath the surface by the glass rod. As soon as all th e c o t t o n h a s b e e n
introduced and com pletely covered by the acid m ixture, the lid is placed on the dish for six or eight minutes.
T h e t h e r m o m eter used on such occasions for ascertaining the te mperature of the water or m i x e d a c i d s , m u st be strongly
m ade, so that the bulb can be m oved about in the fluid with some degre e of briskness without any liability to break ; it is
furnished with a hinged back, which allows the lower portion to be reflected on itself, and the bulb and the lower part of the
stem to be e xposed. Such therm o m e t e r s a r e m anufactured for the chem ist, and can be purchased at the p hotographic
esta blishm ents.
The acids are now poured into another dish close by, allowing the largest portion to drain off, and preventing the cotton from
falling out at the sam e tim e b y the cover which is retained in its place. The dish containing the pyroxyline is then quickly
im m ersed in a large tub of wa ter, and the cotton is well stirred about so as to part with the largest portion of its acidity; it is
t h e n t a k e n o ut with a pair of glass rods and plunged into fresh water in another tub, and again thoroughly washed. After this
operation the pyroxyline is placed in a wooden cham ber through which a current o f water is kept running for twenty-four hours
or m ore, or at least u ntil every trace of acidity has been removed. During this time the agglutinated or adherent portions are
carefully separated, so that th e stream of water can more easily act upon each fiber. When blue litm u s p a p er is no longer
turned red by the water as it proceeds from the cotton, the latter is taken out, again carefully sepa rated and placed in thin
patches on sheets of paper in the sun to dry; or it m ay be dried on zinc plates, being part of a hot-water bath, whose
temperature is maintained at about 120 Fahrenheit. At this tem perature pyroxyline will not explode. In the hot days of
s u m mer, however, it can be dried quite efficaciously when placed out in the sun.
Pyro xyline, when exposed to the air, absorbs m oisture; it undergoes decom position, too, in an air-tight vessel, if light reaches
it; the products of decom position being nitric acid, peroxide of nitrogen, and prob ably other com p o u n d s . I t h a s n o t y e t b e e n
thoroughly ascertaine d by what means it can be preserved in a norm a l c o n d i t i o n p e r m a n e n t l y ; a b s e n c e o f m oisture and of light
have been found to assist in this preservation.
If a specimen of pyro xyline by keeping manifests an acid reaction, it is advisable to wash the cotton in several wate rs, as
before, and again to dry it. To neutralize the cotton by an alkali, or a carbonated alkali, is scarcely to be recom m e n d e d ,
because they both have a tendency to decompose it; and especially if any trace of these should be left in the fiber,
decomposition is likely to ensue in the drying.
By W eight.
C o m mercial sulphuric acid, spec. grav., 1.843, at 60 Fahr.,. 18 ounces,
C o m mercial nitric acid, spec. grav., 1.43, at 60 Fahr.,. 14 ounces
Cotton, 2 ounces
Proceed with these ingredients in all other respects as with those in Formula No. 1.
C o m mercial sulphuric acid, 40 ounces,

Pure nitrate of potassa, 20 ou nces
Cotton, 1 ounce.
A s s o o n a s t h e m i x t u r e o f a c i d a n d n i t r e h a s b e e n t h o r o u g h l y m i x e d , a n d a l m ost cool, the cotton is introdu ced in small

portions and well stirred. In about a quarter of au hour the whole mixture is thrown into a large tub full of water; in this way the
pyro xyline is freed as m uch as possible from the acid; after this it is washed in warm water, and finally in a running stream, as
in Formula No. 1.

Disd ri's Pyroxyline.
Sulp huric acid, 4000 grains.

Pulverized pure nitrate of potassa, 2000 grains
Place these in a glass vessel provided with a close-fitting cover, and stir them intim ately together with a glass rod. Next add
150 grains of fine cotton-wool, in sm all flocks at a tim e , a n d i m m erse them thoroughly with the glass rod. W hen all the cotton
has been introduced, close the vessel and set it aside for ten or fifteen minutes. After this, the pyroxyline is withdra wn by
m eans of a pair of glass rods, and well washed, as before recom m e n d e d , and dried.
In all these form ulas the acids, when once used, can not be em p l o y e d a s e c o n d t i m e; by distillation, the nitric acid that has
n o t b e e n d e c o m p o s e d m i g h t b e o b t a i n e d a n d u s e d o v e r again, if other combinations and decompositions did not result from
the application of so high a te mperature. In ge neral the m ixture is regarded as u seless, and thrown away.
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch o f a m aster.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Copper Acetylide - Archive Thread
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^Baphomet^
A new voice
Posts: 31
From: amman,jordan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well lately i`ve been reading the improvised primary explosives and i found a recipe to make copper acylide by making some copper hydroxide (by mixing copper sulfat and
sodium hydroxide both dissolved in water and then filtering the WHITE copper hydro...)and then bubleing acetylene gas triugh the copper hydroxide solution .....
but when i tried to make it it didnt work coz 1st when i mixed the 2 solutions the resulting solid was blue not white and while i was filtering it it turned dark brown or black .and
when i tried to dissolve it in water to buble the C2H2 it didnt dissolve .
so plz guys does any one have another recipe for copper acetylide ?
------------------
{6@pH0m3t}
do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law...
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take a jar and place in 25 grams powdered copper and 12grams CuCl2. Pour 50-60 cm3 conc. hydrochloric acid. Heat this until it starts to boil and the green colour of the
solution should disappear. Wait until it cools to room temperature and pour it into distiled water(it is said "pour it into a glass of distiled water') and white precipitate of CuCl
should form. Mix this with 25% ammonia solution(NH3) until the precipitate dissolves.
CuCl+2NH3=[Cu(NH3)2Cl]
Bubble acetylene through this solution to get red-brown precipitate of Cu2C2.2H2O which is the cuprum acetylide.
This is from "Demonstrations of Inorganic Chemistry" which is university maual and not some crap book, I've never tried this, but I hope it works! also not sure about the last
reaction, it could be something like
2[Cu(NH3)2Cl]+C2H2=Cu2C2+2NH4Cl+2NH3???
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right but you forgot to tell:
-the green color of CuCl2 truns into a dark brown color when heated with HCl and Cu.
-The white CuCl precipitate can't be kept long so use it fast by filtering it and then dissolving it in NH3 solution (the solution turns blue).
-after bubbling the C2H2 through the blue solution filter it fast and wash it with distillated water, then aceton, then ether and let dry (because water gives the parasit reaction
Cu2C2-->CuC2 + Cu- no difference in color but the later is no more explosive!!!I have had that bad experiment and even heating it when dry afterwards on a flamme only
gave a little spark)!! Very sensitive explosive stuff so don't store too much in one place nor manipulate!!!
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TheBear March 28th, 2003, 04:27 PM

It is always stated that Cu2C2 is very sensitive, more sensitive than Ag2C2, but how sensitive is it compared with other primaries?
PHILOU talks about using ether to make sure it gets dry, is it really necessary or is it ok just to use acetone? I would guess one would like to store this in a dessicator with
some CaCl2 for example?
I have also wondered wheter this reaction would yield CuCl:
Cu2S + 2HCl ---> 2CuCl + 2H2S
Cu2S is easily prepared by boiling sulfur with copper.

As for the toxic H2S. I guess one could lead the gas stream through a flame to avoid breading H2S (I rather breath a little SO2).
Boob Raider April 2nd, 2003, 04:02 PM

Why waste H2S ... lead it through NaOH or NH4OH to get the pure sulfides required for picric acid reduction, but thats a secondary issue.
You are most likely to end up with CuCl2. Cu2Cl2 can be made by heating a solution of CuCl2 in conc HCl with Cu dust/turnings etc. like suggested in the earlier posts.
Ammonical cuprous chloride test is used to test alkynes (tripple bond) so I suppose any alkyne will form its corrosponding salt.
I think I read some where that if Cu2C2 is stored under H2O .... it will slowly release C2H2. So I suggest desensitizing it with acetone/ethOH etc.
Oh BTW Cu2C2 is significantly less sensitive than Ag2C2. I would rate Cu2C2 to be around NG sensitivity.
[ April 02, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > how far away is safe?
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you go boom March 6th, 2003, 10:07 AM

how far would ap or iron + amm onium nitrate b e heard, because i dont want to get caught. like say for a small amo unt, like a
ping pong ball size, and if say i use 2 ping pon g balls worth, if it will be heard twice as far away.
plz help
a_bab March 6th, 2003, 11:32 AM

W ell, although you signed up 4 m onths ago, it was supposed to post several (good) replyes before your first topic. Now You 'll
Go Doom (ed).
<sm all>[ March 06, 2 0 0 3 , 1 0 : 3 6 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : a _ b a b ] < / s m all>
Kriegsminister March 6th, 2003, 12:31 PM

There are a lot of factors that will influence the distance soundwaves of a n explosion will travel.
S o m e e x a m ples are the terrain, weather, wind, length o f t h e s o u n d w a v e s , t y p e o f e x p l o s i v e a n d a m ount.
So you can n ot easily determ ine how far an explosion can be heared. Just be as far away as possible if you don't want anyone
to hear your booms.
<sm all>[ March 06, 2 0 0 3 , 0 1 : 4 6 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : K r i e g s m inister ]</sm all>
PEROMAN March 6th, 2003, 03:37 PM

No.
If you use 2 ping pong balls worth, it will be heard sqr(2) tim es as far away. (sqr(2) = 1.414)
If you use N balls , it will be heard sqr(N) tim es far away
But , if you stay the same distance(from N balls and 1 ball) the explosion from N balls will be N tim es louder then from 1 ball
A-BOMB March 6th, 2003, 04:01 PM

And what unit of measurment are you useing if you m easure your charges in ping-pong ball. You could of atleast used cups or
grams, but p ing-pong balls :rolleyes:
kingspaz March 6th, 2003, 05:16 PM

what the fuck is this?!
y o u g o b o o m , seriously how the hell can you expect us to take you seriously when you have obviously not read the rules, read
the forum o r d o n e a n y sort of research into the topic?
if yo u u s e a p i n g p o n g b a l l o f a n A N b a s e d e x p losive the chance s are its not going to have a full detonation unless heavily
laced with AP the easiest way not to get caught would be to not do it...or do it underwater :rolleyes:
y o u g o b o o m ? i'm sure you will and tarnish our good na m e i n d o i n g s o .
end of so called topic
<sm all>[ March 06, 2 0 0 3 , 0 4 : 1 8 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : k i n g s p a z ] < / s m a l l >

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > U ses for HMTD - Archive file
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zaibatsu March 6th, 2003, 03:43 PM

Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
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W h a t a r e s o m e really good uses for HMTD? I dont have m uch in fo on it and was wondering what kind of explosive devices you
can m ake with it. Im thinking along the lines of pipe bo mbs, M-2000's stuff that m a k e s A L O T of noise. And do I light it with
just a fuse? How much of this stuff can I handle at one tim e cus I heard it can detonate under its own weight.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
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Broadly similar to AP (another peroxide). I don't think it's suitab le for large pipe bom bs due to its sensitivity.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
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BTW this should be in the Exp l o s i v e P e r o x i d e s s e c t i o n .
vehem t
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 580
From : C a n a d a
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And thats just where its headed
MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
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HMT D is a bit m ore powerful than AP,but it's m ain advantage is that it can be stored m uch longer without breaking down.If
you're making large batches,just seperate it into sm aller portion s,store them apa rt and you shouldn't have any troubles.You
could use det.'s for larger qua ntities,but it often detonates with the lightest confinement when lit with a fuse.If you wash it
thoroughly,it stores better/longer.Plus it seem s to be m ore unstable if th ere's any residue leftfrom the solution.
Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
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S o H M T D i s n o t a c o n f i n e d e x p l o s i v e i t e x p l o d e s just ba sicaly if you wraped it in som e p a p e r a n d u s e d a f u s e i t w o u l d e x p l o d e ?
no need for paper tubes and stuff like that?
A n d o n e m ore question if you crushed the crystals or handeled them roughly would they explode?
MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
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If you wrap some in a tissue and light the edge it'll pop!.But the m ore co nfinement you use,the noisier,more powerful it would
be(when m aking M-80's,etc.).I've never attem pted to crush any,so I can't honestly answer your last question,although all the
literature I've read says it is e xtremely friction-sensitive .
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MasterMayhem
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 84
From : Norway
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Teck: Please do a god dam n search before you ask questions like that.
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
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teck, if you handle HMTD roughly it will explode, it is slightly less sensitive then ap, but if you were sittin there crushing it into
powder with a hamm er for firecrackers IT WILL EXPLO DE, and wh en you handle any energetic m ate rial, just treat like the most
sensitive explosive in the world... hope that helps.. and you say youve dealy with flash and bp, one thing for you to know is
that if 100 grams of flsh goes off in your face, youll be burnt and probab l e m i s s i n s o m e fingers, if HMTD goes off in your face,
you wont even know what happened, you be blown to pices
Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
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Thanks for info every one. I a sked those questions cus I just read about it two days ago and got interested in it. Today I
m a d e a s m a l l r e s e a r c h o n A P a n d H T M D a n d m an is it that powerfull? dam n I thought flash powder was a thrill lighting off, b ut
m an this stuff is something. Endotherm how much is 10 0gram s of this stuff anyway give m e a n e q u e v e l e n c e o n h o w m uch that
is. I know ho w m uch 100 gram s of flash powder is but n ot HTMD. I want to try and make HTMD and see what its all about. I
read several recipes and the one on MEGAS site says you can use any acid for AP so I was wondering If I can used citric acid?
A n d o n e m ore thing any other precautions I should take while m aking it other than handle the crystals with care? any m ore
info will be greatly apriciated.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Citric acid won't work for AP, it's not the best for HMTD either.
1 0 0 g m is, well 100 grams! It's roughly equal to the power of an average hand grenade (hand grenades typically contain 50-
7 5 g m of a m ore powerful HE)
Handle the cyrstals with extrem e care, being very cautio u s i s b e t t e r t h a n b e i n g d e a d / h a v i n g n o k n a c k e r s .
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
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well teck, 100 gram s if hm td, from my friends experience, that would be equivelant to about 3 times the power of confined
flash powder per gram. So id say if you are use to flash powder, you would be very suprised at the power of hm td, it probably
wont be much louder than flash (because u were talkin about m -80's), but the de structive power is far greater. So be very
careful with it.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The flash paper would only de flagerate so it's not really comparable to the power of somehting that actually detonates. 100gm
would be about a coke can full of fine powder AP. I advise you don't m a k e t h i s a b o u t u n l e ss you seriously know hwat you are
doin g/ want to die/ha v e n o k n a c k e r s . T h i s a m ount of AP would tear you apart!
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
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yeah, tear you apart and shatter windows in the imm ediate vicinity. this is ALOT o f AP m an, this is VER Y powerful. a gram , in
the right casing could do som e s e r i o u s d a m a g e t o y o u . 1 0 0 g r a m s is just asinine.
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...
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
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FLASH PAPER , I MEANT FLASH POWDER , MY BAD
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
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when i first m ade ap with 27.5 % h2o2 I acidently m a d e 4 5 0 g r a m s!
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
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i know a kid who m a k e s a b o u t a c u p , c u p a n d h a l f e a c h t i m e h e m a k e s A P ( a n d h e m a k e s t h i s u s i n g 3 % H 2 O 2 . . . h e u s e s a l o t )
he has plans for the AP every time he makes it though, so it sits for a week only, two weeks at the m ost.
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...
Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
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I s t a r t e d m a k i n g H M T D t o d a y a n d I t h o u g h t I h a d h e x a mine tablets but what I have is Triaxane Tablets military type for
starting fires heating food etc.., so I need to know if it will work the sam e a s M e t h e n a m i n e , o r h e x a m ine and also, is it alright
to use car battery acid in the m ixture cus I think its a sulfiric acid.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
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T h o s e t r i a x a n e t a b l e t s y o u h a ve won't work, you need hexamine.
Yeah, battery acid is H2SO 4, around 30-40% and it should work as the catalyst for HMTD.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP sensibility and recipie - Archive File
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Arthis
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 203
From :
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It is said that AP is a very unstable explosive com p o u n d . W e can read everywhere to use sulfuric a cid to m a k e . I h a v e 2
question. First, I have made AP m a n y t i m e s , a n d I n e v e r h a d a n y p r o b l e m with it, so I wonder why everybo dy advise to be very
careful ? You can fill a sm all b ox with AP, and throw it away on the ground, nothing happens, and when you test new crystals of
A P , A p e x p l o d e s w h e n t h e f l a m m es virtually touch it. R eally sensitive ? My second question is why everybody knows how to
m ake it with sulfuric acid ? It is a bit m o r e d a n g e r o u s , b e c a u s e w h e n y o u put a bit of it in the acetone-p.h. mix, even if it is
cooled to below 5C, it boils a little: the first tim e I tried, I didn't know and poored a com p l e t e b e a ker of sulfuric acid in the
m ix (the hyd rogen peroxyd was 35%) and it nearly exploded, boiled so strongly that acid jum ped all over my room a n d b u r n t
m y tshirt, arm s, jean; wall. W ith hydrochloric acid, there is no problem. Even if you don't cool the a ceton-h.p mix, it will not boil
(just lacrymo g e n v a p s ) . Y o u g et more AP with this acid. So why do everybody always says to use sulfuric acid ?
------------------
L a c o n n a i s s a nce n'est pas dangeureuse, c'est son utilisation qui peut l'tre
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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ok... 1. why were you doing th is inside.
2 . y o u a r e a d d i n g W AY W AY W A Y t o o m uch acid if it boils and 3. dilute the h2so4 to 50 % with water! hcl is harder to get good
yeilds with, trust me I have tried
gcic
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : Germ a n y
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Hey, I agree with you for the same reasons.
TCAP isn`t that unsta ble like everybod y says.
The manufacture with sulfuric acid crea tes a different modificatio n as far as I am concerne d. But th ere are some crazy guys
who even use nitric acid instead of hyd rochloric acid. I don`t kno w if it works.
My TCAP yield is very high with hydrochloric acid; I cannot imagine, that it is higher when using sulfuric acid.
sim ply RED

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 238
From : HELL
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I use sulfuric 50% and the yie l d s e e m s very go od. I put the m ix ture in cold water bath and add the acid slowly to insure safety.
m egalom ania
Adm inistrator
Posts: 651
From : U SA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before I file this away into the archive I just wanted to clear up a few thin gs.
First of all, do not get com fortable with h a n d l i n g t h e s e e x p l o s i v e s, just because you can treat it roughly and nothing h a p p e n s
does not mean it will always be like that. It is unstable, and others have found out the hard way, and there is literature to back
this up.
Second, the scientists who discovered acetone triperoxide used sulfuric acid, its what the p ublished literature says to use. O ther
later literature recom m e n d s H C l because thats what they had. You can use any "mineral" acid to m ake it, that m e a n s
hydrochloric, nitric, su lfuric, an d phosphoric acids. There is no difference, only what is chea p e s t a n d m ost available.
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For the m o s t c o m p r e h e n s i v e a n d i n f o r m a t i v e w e b s i t e o n e x p l o s i v e s a n d r e l a t e d t o p i c s , g o t o M e g a l o m a n i a ' s E x p l o s i v e s a n d
Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalom ania" target="_blank">http://surf.to/megaloman ia</a>
Arthis
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 203
From :
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I a g r e e a b o u t h a n d l i n g e x p l o s i v e s . E v e r y o n e m ust be careful. right.
But is there any difference between the hydrochloric way and the sulfuric one ? I know there are 2 AP, C6H1 2 O 4 a n d C 9 H 1 8 O 6,
m aybe that would explain the yield, wouldn't it ?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e H 2 S O 4 i s m ore likely to p roduce the dicyclo as it is typically sold in a m uch higher con centratio n than HCl, so if you add it
too quickly to your AP brew then the solution will heat up causingt he formation of the dicyclo over the tricyclo which is produced
at lower tem peratures.
I t h i n k t e m p e r a t u r e d o e s h a v e a n e f f e ct on your yield b ecause when I've m ade rush batches of AP , (throw the chem s into a
jar, quick stir, stick it in the fridge)although crystal formation occured sooner, the total yeild was less.
m egalom ania
Adm inistrator
Posts: 651
From : U SA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y e s , t h e t e m perature is the determ ining factor in making tricyclo over dicyclo acetone peroxide. Acid handling is a simple skill
that I know like second nature, it's one of those things that you just know or do not. So, really it's not the acid that is the
p r o b l e m with yields, but the m akers te chnique. Ignorance is always a problem factor in science.
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The Real
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 136
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I've found th at I get too get much better yields using sulfuric acid and I did get the boiling one tim e. One tip to get away from
that is too pre chill all ingredients, if I do it in that m anner I don't get the boiling. I've used hydrochloric, phosphoric, and
sulfuric acids so far. Phoshporic acid just outright sucks, hyrdochloric pretty good, hydrochloric and phoshporic mixed 1:1 is
pretty good, but in my experience sulfuric is the best. I'm guessing that it has to deal with the fact that at the sam e m olar
concentrations sulfuric acid has twice the norm ality of hydrochloric acid.
I've never made a batch of AP that I found to be really im pact sensitive, in my opinion an yways. To set it off between to coins
I have to spike the coins pretty hard on the ground for anything to happen. I've never had it, "just go off" either. But I still
m ake sure I won't have a m i s h a p .
All the properties of my various batche s o f A P h a v e b e e n q u i t e t h e s a m e , e x c e p t i n o n e b a t c h I g o t very ve ry sm all crystals,

finer than I'm used to. No matter the acid it all as behaved the sam e, but with su lfuric I always get a better yield.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a com m e n t o n t h e c o i n t h i n g , I ' d b e d a m n carefeful with those thing s if you are throwing them near yo u. The other day I
m ade one with two pennies, the amount of AP between them w a s a b o u t a s m u c h a s y o u c o u l d h e a p o n t o t h e b l u n t e n d o f a
pencil.
I taped it to an upright catalouge and shot it from across the room with my air rifle. The outer coin bent into a cone (I im a g i n e
the blast "wrapped" it around the incoming pellet) it flew off and hit the wall perfe ctly square it pun ched a n ice round hole
about 1/4" deep into the plaster. I fou nd the circle of paint it punched out, printed on it was a copy of the coin in exact detail. I
im age if that thing hit you edge on you'de be in a spot of bother...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP catalysts - Archive File
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skipper
A new voice
Posts: 17
From : E n t e n h a u s e n
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If i don't use HCl to catalyte (??) the reaction, but the H2SO4.
I guess I get then the trim eric (???) AP.
W hat is the exact difference a bout that two form of AP, and whats the difference in the BBA???
CYA
Dr. Kollossos
A new voice
Posts: 8
From :
p o s t e d N o v e m ber 04, 2000 08:36 AM
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The only difference is, that it is not as powerful as the version with HCL
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y D r . K o l l o s s o s ( e d i t e d N o v e m ber 04, 2 000).]
m egalom ania
Adm inistrator
Posts: 651
From : U SA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hile reviewing these oldies I thought I had better chim e in here...
T h e t e m pera ture of the reaction is what determ ines if you get th e tricyclic over the dicyclic acetone peroxide. The lower the
temp, the better your chance of the tricyclic. The difference between the two is: The dicyclic is slightly less p owerful AND it is
slightly m ore unstable. O bviously you want the tricyclic.
T h e a c i d s d o n o t m atter, as long as they are m ineral acids (non-organic).
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CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
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the only reason people associate H2SO4 with the dim mer and HCl with the trimm er is because the sulphuric acid tends to he at
the reaction m o r e , a n d l i k e m e g a s a i d h e a t c o n t r i b u t e s t o a n u n favorable product.
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...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP stir or shake? - Archive File
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ALENGOSVIG1
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Posts: 766
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ive heard many recipies that say stir the solution with a glass rod. Who the hell has a glass rod in there house? I just shake the mixture until it gets warm, then a stop and start
again... is this ok?
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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What explosive are you talkling about? AP I would think. I stir it with a straw. If you are making something that says use a glass rod, use a thermometer.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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so i shouldnt shake?
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
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it shouldnt be getting warm I can tell you that, for the trimer to form the solution should be kept cold through the entire operation
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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I bet shaking would be better than stiring, but you would have to find a lid that is resistant to HCl and Acetone. If you didnt know, HCl dont like most metals and Acetone dont
like most plastics and many other things like glue and paint. If you shake it when it has AP in it, the AP will stay on the sides and be harder to get out.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
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yes, that has happeneed to me, i had to use like 1 gallon of water to get all mine out, but it got mixed really well
gcic
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: Germany
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I have got a lass stirring rod. But actually I haven`t ever needed it for the manufacture of AP. The reaction doesn`t really need shaking or stirring here.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
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If you've ever had a chemistry kit when you were a child you should be able to find a glass stirring rod in there.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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Come on people! I know AP is easy to make but that's no reason to bodge it, you need at least 10mins of stirring in an ice bath and add the acid throughout that time. I use a
bamboo skewer for stirring, no problems.
I'm not just bitching, but not only does taking a few minutes of effort give you a better yield/better quality product, it also promotes good habits for when you get onto more
difficult to make explosives. Shaking a jar of concentrated HNO3 is a really bad idea, if the lid came off or leaking you could have some nasty burns, even HCl + acetone
wouldn't do your eyes much good.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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Acetone Peroxide martini
shaken, not stirred
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
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I guess I take it for granted that I have always had glass rods, I have dozens, people always give me some. Of course I have a lot more "stuff" than most people
Anyway, I comment here because stirring is always preferrable to shaking. Imagine trying to make pudding by just swirling the bowl, it's not gonna be very good. Stirring can
homogenize the reactants, regulate the temperature, and in general increase the success of the reaction. Also, NEVER use a thermometer as a stirring rod, that is the #1 way
to break them, and if it's a mercury (soon to be illegal) one, you risk exposure, plus product contamination.
My suggestion is to use a plastic hanger. Wood can cause bad side reactions, plastic is in most cases (not all mind) not going to react. Get a plastic hanger, cut the bottom part
off and use the foot long shaft as your stirrer. A rubber spatula will also do, just pluck off the rubber part and use the plastic shaft. Alternatly, you can go to one of those
science places at the mall (World of Science, or the Discovery Channel Store) or any local hobby shop and get yourself a real glass rod.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at <a href="http://surf.to/megalomania"
target="_blank">http://surf.to/megalomania</a>
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have one of those 1.5 foot lab/industrial grade thermometers woth mercury that works well and is very strong
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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actually I was just joking about the shaken not stirred thing (wanted to sound like bond) I have always used either a 8" long bamboo skewer or one of the many glass rods
that I "obtained" from my chemistry class.
Hey mega wouldn't the acetone in the mixture start to dissolve the plastic hanger part? or at least take the coloring off of it or something? a long time ago I used to dip GI Joes
and legos in acetone and they would become mushy after a few minutes.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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there are some plastics that are acetone resistant. coat hangers might be one of those variety.
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...
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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i have a glass rod. err did have on enyways. I just broke it by accident. I all have to get a new one.
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Explosives Archive
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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I know for definate HDPE (High Density PolyEthylene) is resistant to acetone, it is also resistanty to conc. HCl and H2SO4. If containers are HDPE they are usially marked as so
for recycling purposes.
I have some lengths glass tubing from a chemisty set I had as a kid which I sometimes use for stiring.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > O xalic acid HMTD - Archive File
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MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
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It's m y understanding that the acids in AP/HMT D production act as catalysts,and m any different acids m ay be used for this
p u r p o s e . I ' v e n o t h e a r d a n y m e n t i o n o f o x a l i c a cid however.Does anyone have any info. on it's use for this purpose (or lack
therof)?. It's sold at some hardware stores for use as a wood bleach.
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CodeMason
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 386
From : Your Nightmares
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M i n e r a l a c i d s ( H C l , H 2 S O 4 ) t e n d t o b e t h e b e s t , b u t I g u e s s o x a lic acid would work. From what I understand, citric acid is the
preferred catalyst for HMTD. Both are organic acids. The downsid e would probably be the reaction will take far longer than it
should, since organic acids tend to be fairly weak.
Anyway, why don't you just try it and compare the acids and tell us your findings? It could really do no harm .
m egalom ania
Adm inistrator
Posts: 651
From : U SA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D o n o t u s e o rganic acids for AP synthesis, it's mineral only. So says the original p ublished research. As for HMTD, I do not
know.
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MacCleod
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 215
From :
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T h a n k s , M e g a l o m ania . S a v e d m e s o m e u n n e c c e sary work(I was just about to try it!).BTW ,did you decide to "pop the question "?
.Inquiring m inds wanna know!.
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
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I know for a fact that both HCl and citric acid work for HMTD, and I got better results with HCl.
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
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P.S. - m e t a l o x a l a t e s a r e o f t e n e x p l o s i v e s t h e m s e l v e s ! C o p p e r a n d s i l v e r s a l t s a r e , a n d p r o b a b l y t h e l e a d s a l t i s a n d t h e
m ercury one too.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have already m ade the silve r oxalate three years ago and it ws not that interesting as com pared to the acetylide.
So, following you the Copper salt is also an explosive....hum interesting have you info on this one (I will try it anyway since I
stil have a big quantity of the oxalic acid).
The mercury salt is said to be explosive, I have never tried but I will also.
The lead salt .... m a y b e ( I ' l l t a k e a l o o k ) .
S o m e organic salts of Ag, Hg, (Cu and Pb?) are explosives like the tartrate salt....
BTW for those who are intriguished by those oxalic explosives here are the equations:
2 A g N O 3 + H - O - C O - C O - O H - - - > A g O 2 C -C O2Ag + 2 HNO3
The salt does form here because it is so unsoluble that even the fact that HNO3 is a m uch stronge r acid than (HCO2-)2
doesn't stop the reaction.
A g - C O 2 - C O 2 -Ag (dry)+heat -->2Ag + 2 CO2 + heat
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Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I d o n ' t h a v e a n y i n f o o n a n y o f t h e m , n o r h a v e I tried any of them . I just heard about them.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP with 35% H2O2 - Archive File
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my friend, just finished adding the last ingrediant to his ap.. He made it with 200 ml of 35% h2o2, 360 ml of ecteone, and 60 ml of hydrochloric In an ice bath, He usually
maked it with 6% with no prob but this time, when he added the last ingrediant it the reaction finished in 20 seconmds and then it boiled like a mother fucker! Is there anyway
i can stop this voiling during the reaction?..its still boiling as i speak
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Explosives Archive
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 64
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try adding about 40ml of acid, and next time, add the acid slowly to the mixture.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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10-15ml of acid is plenty an add it drop by drop with the reactant vessel in an ice bath.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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Is it possible to use too much acid?
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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how strong is the acid ALEN? i personally have seen, added to the mix, 32 % HCl, about 50 mls of it, all at once. the apple sauce jar only got slightly warm.
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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28%
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Explosives Archive
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
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hmmm... I use 30% h202, and about 50-60 ml 30% hlc. And have no problems with overheating/boiling.
Just add the acid slowly, in 3 parts while stiring
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
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I use 50%h2o2 and this brews up a coke can full in 45 mins.I have spilt the 50% on my bare hands and nothing happened except where I had touched the chemical my skin
was bleached,this only lasted about 1 day.I have had this shit "boil like a muthafucker"as well.Now that I have let off some big blasts of ap I respect the shit a lot more.I
nearly blew myself away.I took a pile of ap about the size of a apple and cramed it in a gap in a thick stone hut,anyway because I cramed the crystals in there was ap
everywhere{Iwas in a rush}anyway to cut a long story short it detonated after I had take 2 steps towards cover I wasnt injured besides ringing ears but it scared the fuck out
of me and took a square 20 to 30 cm of the wall out.
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
where do you get the 50% h202 from?
And, shady be more carefull with ap
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 223
From: UK
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Huh! You get 50% H2O2 and make shit loads of AP and then end up dropping it all over the place, and I only get 17.5% and have to make every bit count! Some people...
P.S. Erm, maybe next time put it in a container!
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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I ordered a quart of 30% H2O2 from Pyrotek and I got it 3 days ago the weird thing is that they sent it in a clear polyethylene container.
As soon as I opened the box I thought it was crazy and I put it in a quart size jar and taped the sides of the jar with duct tape and I stored it in my closet so it didn't lose its
strength.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
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Why do you consider it strange to store H2O2 in polyethylene ? Where I buy mine, it's always sold that way.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His point was that the container was clear, exposing the H202 to the sunlight which decomposes it.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
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yeah pyrotek was probably too busy to put it in amber or black HDPE so they just poured it in whatever was laying around.
I wouldn't be suprised if they sent it in a ziploc bag or a soda can the next time I order some.
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 171
From: Heaven
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I've used 40% H2O2 without any problems.

I use the hydrochloric method. What is the big difference - the acid only works as a catalyst for the reaction, right!?
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes that is right. it is not consumed in the reaction it only speeds it up. i would suggest that everyone use HCl when they make AP, it works just as well as H2SO4 and it does
not boil, hell it only gets slightly warm.
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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HYDROCHLORIC WILL BOIL!
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Explosives Archive
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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of course HCl(a) will boil, but when using 30mls of it to speed up an AP reaction, i have never experianced excess heat. (it gets slightly warm, but not boiling. the temp
probably rises, about, 10 degrees C)
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
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I think there are some impurities in my HCl that caused it to boil perhaps. When i use 98% h2SO4 in an ice bath it never boils. I havent made ap for quite awhile. Just not fun
anymore.
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
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Is it possible to use sulfuric rather than hydrochloric acid. And I have bin using the big book of big bang's method, the one where you add more h2o2 than acetone and my
yields are well pittifull. How much difference will there be if i use the same volumes only swapping the chems around.
Thanks room.
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it possible to use sulfuric rather than hydrochloric acid. And I have bin using the big book of big bang's method, the one where you add more h2o2 than acetone and my
yields are well pittifull. How much difference will there be if i use the same volumes only swapping the chems around.
Thanks room.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Use 6 times as much acetone as pure H2O2, you will get good yields with this method.
"the big book of big bangs" sound kinda kewl.
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know this forum seems to have something against totse, but this is the only usefull thing i have found there. <a href="http://totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/
blkbk2.html" target="_blank">http://totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/blkbk2.html</a>
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
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One of the rules of theforum is to *never* post anything from totse. Even if it's just on principle.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1474
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I looked at this one and it has alot of the normal totse shit crossed off (literaly scored through!) I would say this file is ok, but I would not trust my life on it but as it is I am
recomending to the other permanent mods that this stay even though it is from totse beacuse It is sorta imformative and is one of the few good things that comes outta bad
places like the dimond that comes out of the coal mine, it is a very rare find, so unless I can find a big safety hazard it is ok on my part, I will read it more slowly this evening.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Silveracetylide
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kkpaul April 18th, 2003, 06:15 PM

Hi @ All!
This is my first post. Have anybody else tried to produce it? I on c e m a d e a batch of 10g o f it and it is quite powerfull.
Unfortunately it is relatively sensitive on friction and im pact.
W e placed 0,8g (our first sample) on a 6m m thick PVC Plate. It gave a big BOOM and it m a d e a 3 c m diametre hole in it......
You can produce it by bubbling acetylene gas through a silvernitrate solution.... After that you can wash it a few tim es with
dest. water a nd dry it.
So im from germ a n y , s o e x c u s e m y b a d e n g l i s h : P

i've just mad e about 50g of it. all in different batches of course.
d o e s y o u r s d arken to a grey/brown colour thoughout if dried in light but not direct light? i have noticed this stuff to be
particularly violent but i can't find out what it is. federoff says m ost of the silver acetylide/silver salt com plexes are white.
a n y b o d y k n o w what this compound is? all i know is that it contains nitrate ions. reason: i have a co m p l e t e l y d a r k e n e d s i l v e r
acetylide/silver sulphate sam ple which doesn't do much in a fire. therefore the nitrate m ust still be in the darkened nitrate
complex because it explodes in a fire.
any help appreciated.
k k p a u l , i t s A L O T m ore complicated than running acetylene throu gh AgNO 3, sure that will p repare som thing, but what!?
m any things affect it, i think pH does since you get different products from precipitation from am m o n i a c a l a n d H N O 3 s o l u t i o n s .
also concentration plays a role as you get different products dep ending on concentration.
m oving this to other explosives because its a primary.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nitrobenzoyl Peroxide
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knowledgehungry April 19th, 2003, 11:49 AM

As I was looking through the Organic synthesis databaseorganic synthesis database (http://www.orgsyn.org) I came across this compound, C14H8N2O8. It is prepared by
several different methods.
A 600-ml. beaker containing 100 ml. of water and equipped with an efficient stirrer, a thermometer, and a 200-ml. separatory funnel is immersed in an ice-water bath.
When the temperature of the water has fallen to 05, 10 g. (0.13 mole) of sodium peroxide (Note 1) is added. Then, with vigorous stirring, a solution of 37 g. (0.2
mole) of p-nitrobenzoyl chloride in 100 ml. of dry toluene is added dropwise over a period of about 30 minutes. After the mixture has been stirred for an additional 1.5
hours, the precipitate is filtered and washed with 200 ml. of cold water (Note 2). The yield of p-nitrobenzoyl peroxide is 28.529 g. (8688%). It melts at 155156with
vigorous decomposition .
That was one method but there was another mentioned in very little detail about nitrating benzoyl peroxide(the acne medicine) with the standard mixed acids. I was wondering
if anyone had any ideas about the explosive power(if any at all) of this compound, it would appear to have a very low oxygen balance, C14H8N2O8--> N2+4H2O+4CO+10C,
however it might be mixed with AN. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Here is the website for the reaction http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv3p0649
And here is a picture of the molecule http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/chemname.asp?nameID=53523
knowledgehungry April 22nd, 2003, 07:38 PM

Well since i cant edit my post...
Do any of you have an opinion on this because i was planning on working on the extraction of benzoyl peroxide from Acne cream, but if this is a half ass idea i dont want to
bother. I just thought that someof you might be interested in something new instead of the same old "how to make AP easier" shit, i guess not.
Nihilist April 23rd, 2003, 12:50 AM

maybe i'm missing something(and i probably am), but couldn't you just nitrate it using a regular nitric/sulfuric acid bath? As to the extraction of the benzoyl peroxide from the
acne medicine, i would think dissolving the medicine in acetone or maybe ethyl alcohol might be able to extract it. However, the acne medicine that I have seen only comes in
10% benzoyl peroxide form, and it can only be purchased in relatively small tubes only 1-2 grams of actual benzoyl peroxide could be gotten out of each tube, so it might be
wise to try to find a more efficient source.
A43tg37 April 23rd, 2003, 02:22 AM

I've seen tubes of acne cream that are almost as big as a tube of toothpaste, and some as small as a tube of Blistex, and everything in between. Seems a little more than one
or two grams could be had from one of the larger tubes. Also, if efficiency or cost seems to be an issue, either: Go for the cheapest generic brand you can get (another benefit
in this is that a generic would probably have less additives intended to make it less harsh on your skin, which means less crap to separate from what you really want), or wait
until some discount store has them on clearance in the health and beauty section. I seem to remember Big Lots doing this occassionally, and even though I only recall seeing
little tubes of the stuff, they were incredibly cheap. If this process turns out to be viable, then mabye I'll stock up next time it's cheap. Oh, and mabye we should check out
prices on the benzoyl peroxide cleansing creams that come in those little tubs...If they're 10% benzoyl peroxide too, it seems it would be more economical than buying the
acne stuff by the tube. And even if this isn't the most economically viable process for obtaining benzoyl peroxide, it still ought to be studied (as an example of a process that is
expensive but could still be useful, I point to the "metaldehyde from slug pellets" idea), in case the time ever comes when benzoyl peroxide (and probably other "suspicious"
chemicals that could be used in peroxide-based primer and explosive synthesis) become more heavily watched in their technical, lab, or pure forms than they are now (IIRC
benzoyl peroxide can be purchased as lab grade from most major chem suppliers without much hassle).
frogfot April 23rd, 2003, 03:55 AM

Both metyl benzoate and benzoic acid could be nitrated (one resp two nitro groups). Shouldnt there be a way to replace methyl in methyl benzoate with chlorine.. or replace H
in benzoic acid with chlorine? This could then be peroxidised.
knowledgehungry April 23rd, 2003, 04:35 PM

My major question was if this compound would be explosive, looking at it i think that it might but i am not the most knowledgeable forumite. So that was my main question.
Here is the list of ingredients in CVS brand acne cream, 10% benzoyl peroxide, aluminum hydroxide gel, bentonite, carbomer-940, dimethicone, glycerol stearate SE, isopropryl
myristate,methylparaben, peg-12, potassium hydroxide, propylene glycol, propylparaben and water.
That seems like an awful lot of work, i will probably just purchase some from a chem supplier, unless someone thinks of an easy way to separate the benzoyl peroxide.
Anthony April 23rd, 2003, 05:00 PM

Benzoyl peroxide is the catalyst for car body filler, fibre glass resin etc.
Should be much purer than in acne cream!
frogfot April 23rd, 2003, 05:20 PM

Are you talking about benzoyl peroxide or nitrobenzoyl peroxide? I think i saw the first one in bigger concentrations too. It was around 50% i section where they selled silicone,
it was probably same thing as Anthony was talking about.
Btw, benzoyl peroxide is shocksencitive and may explode, comercially they store it wet (25% water) and cold.
EDIT: Soz, my foalt, i have read first topic but it was a while back.. and memory isnt my friend :(
knowledgehungry April 23rd, 2003, 10:36 PM

I was merely discussing the aquisiton of benzoyl peroxide as a precursor to nitrobenzoyl peroxide. I still havent had any body respond as to whether or not they think it would
be an explosive worthy of my time.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > "power" of different explosives??
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I was looking through the forum and in some thread I saw something about the difference between VoD and gas volume, and that explosives with a high VoD not have to be
more powerful than one with a low VoD, because of differences in volume of produced gas.
so to know the power of a explosive, just knowing the VoD doesnt mean that much. am I right?
so I was wondering if there has been any tests or studies of the volume of the gas released from explosives commonly discussed here.?(AP,ANFO...)
or might it even be possible to calculate it? (I myself isnt that deep into chemistry... yet)
its like the VoD, nice to know,but its not like it really matters when out blasting the shit out of some old treestump...:D
(english isnt my native language, so forgive me if the grammar or somthing is bad)
vulture April 27th, 2003, 06:29 PM

Well, this is not an easy question to answer, as there are many factors involved.
Firstly, it is very important that we define the environment factors we are working with, because pressure and temperature have an enormous effect on gas volume.
Normally, gas volume of explosives is listed at 0C and 101.3kPa (1 atm)

A few examples:
TNT:......730L/Kg..6900m/s
NG:.......780L/Kg..7600m/s
HMX:.....920L/Kg..9100m/s
RDX:.....920L/Kg..8750m/s
DEGDN:.1030L/Kg..6600m/s
As you can see, there is no direct connection between gas volume and VoD.
This is logical, as the gas volume is dependant of the chemical composition and thermodynamic properties of the explosive, whereas VoD is mostly dependant of the speed of
sound, the reaction speed and the density.
Calculation at a given pressure is possible when making certain assumptions, but this involves physics of which I won't go into detail.
Another variable in the power is the explosion heat.

I will add them to the previous table, together with the oxygen balance:
TNT:......730L/Kg....6900m/s...4520Kj/Kg...-73,9%
NG:........780L/Kg....7600m/s...6770Kj/Kg...+3,5%
HMX:......920L/Kg....9100m/s...5680Kj/Kg...-21,6%
RDX:......920L/Kg....8750m/s...5720Kj/Kg...-21,6%
DEGDN:.1030L/Kg....6600m/s...4530Kj/Kg...-40,8%
We can clearly see that there again is no direct connection between explosion heat and the other variables, however there is a clear connection between OB and explosion
heat.
This is agian logical, as a more positive OB means more oxidation and oxidation is where most of the liberated energy comes from.
The brisance of an explosive also depens on the peak pressure at the time of explosion.
Last but not least there is the Berthelot equation which gives you the relative strength to TNT in %.
In fact it is a way to calculate the work (physical definition of work) capacity of an explosive.
The formula:
(840 * N * E)/Mr2
where:
N = # moles of gas produced
E = explosion heat
Mr = molecular weight
Calculation for RDX gives: 194,76%

First of all, this should be in High Explosives.
Secondly:
"its like the VoD, nice to know,but its not like it really matters when out blasting the shit out of some old treestump..."
Actually it matters quite a lot. The stump needs to be heaved out of the ground in one piece. Get it wrong and the stump can split into two or more sections, each firmly rooted
down - a more difficult challenge to remove than the original stump. Choice how brisant the charge should be would also be dependant on the type of wood, the size of the
stump, and its condition e.g. green, rotten, matured.
Vulture has covered the important points quite nicely.

That was quite educational, Vulture.
But since this is a thread about the "power" of explosives, I was just wondering about the different kind of explosive forces that different explosives have. I've heard about
"heaving" force and "shattering" force so far, how some explosives explode with a "heaving" force which will move a large body of something in one piece, until of course it
comes down out of the sky. Where "shattering" force would result in the complete desolation of an object, i am likening this to AP/HTMD inside a potato (would i be right?)
im looking for an esplosive with a great heaving power, as according to a web site that basicaly said what I've said above, but ive lost the link.
Is there any thruth to this?
xyz April 28th, 2003, 06:04 AM

Generally speaking, explosives with a low VoD have a lot of heaving power, and explosives with a high VoD have a lot of shattering power. If you are looking for heaving
power, try ANFO or Urea Nitrate.

I dont know if the potato think will work so well. If you put ANFO inside it, and was able to detonate such a small amount, i believe it would still be blown to pieces. Maybe by
setting the charge on the side of the potato you could see the difference better.
Shattering power, does that mean the power of the shockwave? That the shockwave shatters the object? Or does the heat have something to do with it?
Microtek April 28th, 2003, 10:58 AM
Brisance or shattering power is mostly a function of detonation pressure which is related to VOD. In my opinion, these parameters give the most useful basis of comparison
between explosives ( for my purposes which deal with small amounts of high perfomance HE ).
As a rule of thumb, you might say that work product is important when the charge is buried or otherwise contained completely, while brisance is more important when the
charge is placed on the surface of a target.
green beret April 29th, 2003, 10:49 AM

Dont know if this helps, but in the industry, they have weight strength and bulk strength, I'll find the charts tomorrow, I also have powder factors for stump blasting with ANFO,
if I can find it all, I'll post it for you. Also when using something with a high VoD, the gasses tend to escape between the fissures and cracks before the material can be moved
any great distance, generally speaking this is with rock but is also applicable to other things, thats why ANFO heaves, because the gasses dont escape too quickly, (in most
cases). Sorry if this dosent make too much sense I am tired and just wanted to help a little. It also has to do with the shockwave etc. but I just wanted to say that, it is one of
a number of factors which contributes to heave.
Thankyou.:)
rooster April 29th, 2003, 08:08 PM

Thank you vey much for useful info guys!
Originally posted by Microtek

Brisance or shattering power is mostly a function of detonation pressure which is related to VOD.
Mikrotek, does this mean that the greater VOD the greater pressure? It seems logical that when the wave tracels this fast a certain pressure would build up. But won't the
gasses produced in the combustion raise the pressure on surrounding objects? It is calculated in PSI right?
xyz April 29th, 2003, 09:05 PM

There is also a difference between the pressure that an explosive CAN create, and the pressure that it DOES create. Explosives with a high VoD tend to create high pressures
because lots of gasses are formed very quickly.
Because of this, ANFO (which has quite a low VoD) doesn't usually create as much pressure as something like RDX, because ANFO releases it's gasses over a longer period of
time and the gasses have more time to escape. But, ANFO has a higher gas volume and CAN create a higher pressure, so long as there is sufficient confinement to stop the
gasses from escaping.
Imagine that there were two containers made from a (ficticious) tremendously strong material that could take pressures of a few million psi. Imagine that one contained 1Kg of
RDX and the other contained 1Kg of ANFO, the containers are completely sealed. If the explosives inside each one were set off, the comnainers would not burst (because of
their enormous imaginary strength) and you would now have two containers that both held ridiculous pressures. The ANFO container would hold a higher pressure than the RDX
one because of ANFO's huge gas volume.

thanks all, i guess i was looking for ANFO then. my 25 Kg of 99% grade AN will araive tommorow, im going to do my own experiments on how to remove the hill in my back
yard....

Thanx for XYZ, nice way of illustrating that.
JFK: are you able to get any pics of the demolition?:rolleyes:
Efraim_barkbit May 3rd, 2003, 07:45 PM

Thanks everybody for the info, it got me a clear picture of what the meaning of the two definitions of "power" is.
I saw a theory conserning the power increase for explosives some time ago, and Im wondering if its correct.
When X gram of an explosive has power Y, then 2*X gram of the explosive has the power Y^2.
(I hope you understand what I meant, it took some time to figure out how to tell it in english)
were is the part "Rogue science specific"?? is it just gone temporarily, or for ever??
xyz May 3rd, 2003, 10:47 PM

You mean for example, if 1g of AP has a power of X, then 2g of AP has a power of X times X?

By detonating larger amounts of explosives, you increase efficiency because this creates more pressure in the center of your HE. This means that the total efficiency of twice of
amount of HE is greater than twice the efficiency of one.
But I greetly doubt this leads to an exponential law like you said. Imagine that it would mean that 1kg of HE would be far more effective than a pound (X^2 with you
notation)... Then 1 ton of PETN would be hiroshima ;) (power of exponentials, used to say my maths teacher...)
kinetic July 24th, 2003, 08:38 PM

vulture,
i'm not being critical, but curious... where did you get your VoD for RDX?
I have the US Army demolitions manual and it states that the VoD of RDX is 8350 m/s with a relative brisance of 1.60 (TNT being 1.0). I have used these values to determine
minimum safe distances and the amount of explosives needed for various charges and I have made and had good results using the info from the manual. This indicates to me
that the manual is accurate.
What is the mol. wt. of RDX? Maybe the reason your brisance calculation is different from the manuals is because your VoD is different (obviuosly). So what I am gettting at is I
would like to calculate it myself and see. Do you have the mol. wt. of any other explosives?
another reason may be that your system of brisance measurement is not based on TNT.
THanks! :)
cutefix July 26th, 2003, 10:01 PM

The detonation velocity as listed by Vulture is probably based on maximum density and calculated as some by computer programs in estimating detonation velocity and
detonation pressure.
Besides there are many ways to calculate detonation speed and other explosive performance datas and the values vary.
IIRC, in one of the Los Alamos explosive performance data shows RDX to have a measured detonation velocity or 8600 m/s.And in some related explosive data (byPopulato et
al?) have its velocity varies according to the density of the explosive.
.

Kinetic, I use 1.75 for RDX. The Army manuals you have used may be extreamly old. I use EOD publications. That may explain something, or it may be that EOD errors on the
side of safety, I dont know.
kinetic July 28th, 2003, 11:23 AM

Actually, the manuals I use are current- I'm still in the army. Every year I go to a seminar where we update the breaching guide (demo manual) and experiment with different
charges.
I have done a little extra reasearch since I posted last and I found that different tests and theoretical calculations come up with different RE values even though they are all
tested with the same sample of explosive at the same density. I suppose the RE value of an explosive is more of an average or general guideline than a constant...
vulture July 28th, 2003, 01:17 PM

What is the mol. wt. of RDX? Maybe the reason your brisance calculation is different from the manuals is because your VoD is different (obviuosly). So what I am gettting at is I
would like to calculate it myself and see. Do you have the mol. wt. of any other explosives?
another reason may be that your system of brisance measurement is not based on TNT.
You are mixing up different things.
My calculation for RDX calculates the physical work capacity of an explosive, not the brisance. The calculation does not use the VoD, so I don't understand where you're getting
at. :confused:
Furthermore the Berthelot equation DOES measure based on TNT.
The VoD comes from a recent (2001) chemical dictionary. I can check the density if you want. Another reason might be that military grade RDX might not be chemically pure,
whereas most chemically oriented test use atleast 99,9% grade material.
Furthermore, like HMX, RDX has several crystal modifications which have a rather large impact on VoD.
EDIT: Mr of RDX: 222,6 (off the top of my head)
kinetic July 28th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Vulture,
AHHHHhhhhh... I see, my mistake- I must have been speed reading or sometihing, you did say that it is in relavence to TNT in the previous thread. :rolleyes:
In the military we use "Relative Effectivenes" to convert pounds of TNT to C-4 or Comp. B in our calculations. RE is a measure of brisance not power (physical work capacity??
). That's probably where I got confused. I am curious about this "physical work capacity" though.
Since PWC does not take into account VoD, how can it take into account the detonation pressures? Wouldn't that effect how much matter an explosive can move? Is there any
equation or measurement that takes into account all the properties of explosives?
I meant to ask about the mol. wt. of RDX as a separate question but I think faster than I type.
Finaly, where do you find equations like the Berthelot equation? I have looked around and have found very few. I have several in my breaching guide but they mostly pertain
to how much explosives it takes to do *blank* rather than the performance/chemical reaction side of things.
Thanks. :)
vulture July 29th, 2003, 08:22 AM

Physical work capacity could be regarded as the "energy" of an explosive. Power = energy/time and that is where the VoD comes into play, since it determines how fast the
reaction proceeds.
The berthelot equation gives you an idea how far 2 explosives would propel an object if they would have the same VoD.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Na2C O 3 / H 2 O 2 c o m p l e x .
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Mr Cool May 1st, 200 3, 05:09 PM

H a s a n y o n e e x p e r i m ented with this? I'm sure I've seen it m entioned somewhere online, but can't find it no w.. I saw a tub of it
for 1.99 in W ilko's today ("Oxo-sure" or som ething, I'll get more details tom orrow), I didn't have any m o n e y o n m e but
m ight pick som e up tom orrow. It was a 2:3 ratio, but I can't rem ember which way round... At least, it said it was Na2CO3:H2O 2
in a 2:3/3:2 ratio, but could be a com p o u n d I g u e s s .
S e e m s to m e that if you just add a little m ore acid to a primary peroxide synth then the H2O2 would be liberated for the
reaction. Or it may have other uses, eg peracid production for oxidations, after you get rid of the carbonate.
Also, is this what is known as sodium percarbonate?
Sorry, I'm not really thinking, just posting a stream of consciousness here, as it com es into m y h e a d .
W ell, it seem s like interesting stuff to m e, so I thought I'd make a topic for it. If you have experience with it, post. I'll pick
s o m e up tom orrow or this wee kend and have a play with it.
Hystrix May 4th, 2003, 02:16 PM

Yes, of course. It's a main com p o n e n t o f m any non-chlorine bleaches. IIRC its fo rm u l a i s N a 2 C O 3 * 1 . 5 H 2 O 2 * H2O. Probably
it is a cheapest raw for AP (acetone + percarbonate bleach + battery acid). But it gives a lot of foam with acid so it should be
dissolved in little portions. And, of course, AP o btained by this m e t h o d s h o u l d b e w a s h e d V E R Y g o o d .
The_Rsert Novem ber 14th, 2004, 04:21 PM

M a y b e a n o t h er way:
A few weeks ago I have heard that 2l 10% pure percarbonate so lotion, 300m l 20% HCL and 300ml or less Aceton will form
after 4 days about 70g pure DPPP (after recrystallising).
Then I have mixed 1l bleach ("Ace - Milde Bleiche", contains 5-15% oxygen based bleach) with 200m l Aceton and 2 5 0 m l
24%HCL in a 5l canister.
After 3-4 Days i had 36.8g (after recrystallising) of a white explo sive powder with a very, very low density. Maybe it's pure DP P P
but I'm thinking it's AP!
cyclonite4 Novem ber 20th, 2004, 08:46 AM

I rem ember seeing a thread in the chemistry related se ction about Sodium Percarbonate, I think it was saying the same thing.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Naphtha (liquid), AN, AL, Sodium
Hypochlorate - Archive File
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megalomania May 10th, 2003, 12:03 AM

Bubba
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 71
From :
posted March 02, 2001 10:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W a s l o o k i n g t h r o u g h a R a g n a r B e n s o n book (Better cheaper Hom e a d e C 4) and cam e across the recipe for: Naphtha (liquid),
AN, powdered Al, calcium hypochlorite (pool treatment chem ) and it says its about 40% of TNT. Anyone else seen/tried this?
Just looked interestin g since like HMTD and AP it is just easily obtainable off the shelf type stuff.
( P l e a s e e x c u se the spelling of the chem icals in the title, I edited the msg to show the correct spelling.)
[This message has been edited by Bubba (edited March 02, 2001).]
Agent Blak
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Posts: 770
From : S k . C a n a d a
posted March 02, 2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bubba Would you be willing to scan in that book?
------------------
A wise man once said :
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Bubba
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 71
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AB: Not a problem . It'd be about 94m e g t h o u g h . U nless you just want that one chapter. The whole book is called: " New and
I m p r o v e d C 4: Beter than ever Recipes for 1/2 the m o n e y a n d D o u b l e t h e f u n b y R a g n a r b e n s o n "
I just need a ftp to post it on. I can upload at T1 speed BUT I cant host a ftp cuz I am behind a firewall with 14 rotating IP
address's. Really bite s!
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 220
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen it, in a m ovie.
In "Terminator", they called it "plastic explosive" but that's not right.
And I recall they used solid mothball a s t h e f u e l ( n a p h t h a l e n e ) .
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y H M T D F a c t o ry (edited March 02, 2001 ).]
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y o u h a v e t h e i n f o r m ation all wrong. You add alum inum and your in big trouble. And it says it is equivilant to slightly less than
4 0 % d y n a m ite.
I h a v e a l r e a d y s c a n n e d t h e b o o k a n d i m ight p ut it up in the library. m abe that is. BTW, the whole book is about 4 m e g s
s c a n n e d . L o o k i n t h e t h r e a d u nder "C alcium Hypochlorite Naptha". I have posted results o f tests of this explosive in the
t h r e a d . M a b e d o s o m e research fist and dont p ost incorrect information. The info is right in front of you if you have the book.
Go through the trouble of thouroughly looking through the form ula before you post Incorrect information and kill som e o n e . I n
the title of the threas you even put "sodium hypochlorite". Im tempted to lock this thread, but then you have people whining
a n d c o m plaining.
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch o f a m aster.
Explosives Archive
Bubba
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 71
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, was gonna redo it when I got ho me. I didn't post any specifics or pro-portions so I didn't figure anyone would be crazy
enough to try to make anything without even any directions.
I believe anyone is allowed a m istake or two.
"In the title of the threas you even put "sodium hypochlorite"
As for that if you looked 12hrs BEFOR E y o u p o s t e d y o u r m s g I h a d a l r e a d y e d i t e d m y m sg saying it was spelled wrong.
Again, sorry.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AFPO .....just another kewlish ex? -
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megalomania May 10th, 2003, 12:09 AM

the freshm a k e r
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From : Heave n
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I r e a d s o m ewhere that you could m a k e a n e x p l o s i v e f r o m A N , a m m o n i u m hydroxide and gelantine....? It was a really kewlish
page but I just wanted to be sure, because now and then you ca n actually find som e things that work....?
AFPO??
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Morrigan
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 81
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I d o n t think that it will work becaus e all am m onium nitrate e x p l o s i v e s n e e d t o b e w a t e r f r e e , a n d a m m onium h y d r o x i d e a n d
gela ntine both contain lots of water. Not sure though bu t I don't give it a big change.
Conclusion: Probably Kewl bullshit.
plan -x
A new voice
Posts: 5
From :
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I d o n t think that it will work becaus e all am m onium nitrate e x p l o s i v e s n e e d t o b e w a t e r
free"
Not true. Amm onium nitrate-b ased water gels contain stacks of water. It probably will work , as just about anything will sensitize
AN to some degree, and even if it doesnt sensitize the AN the m ixture will still be detonateable, as practically nothing renders
AN totally inert. However, i rea lly doubt there is any use trying it, stick to ANNM or sim ilar.
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
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True. Many blasting explosives are aqueous gels or slurries with AN being the main explosive.
xyz May 20th, 2003, 08:55 AM

I t h i n k I h a v e s e e n t h i s A F P O t h i n g s o m ewhere before and it was something that would never work . IIRC I saw it in a collection
of useless kewl files that Rat Bastard has on his site.
I t s a i d s o m e t h i n g a b o u t a m i x t u r e o f a m m o n i u m h y d r o x i d e a n d gelatin and that it was flame sensitive, I don't rem ember it

s a y i n g a n y t h i n g a b o u t AN in the mix.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > KMnO4 and H2SO4 - Archive File
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megalomania May 10th, 2003, 09:44 PM

the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
posted 03-09-2001 07:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found some kind of sciencepage (a litle kewlish) that mentioned something about mixing potassium permanganate and sulphuric acid and then you should have somekind of
explosive oil. Does anyone know about this shit?
------------------
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 03-09-2001 10:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if that is true but I read that if you mix KMnO4 and H2O2 you get a whole bunch of steam. Apparently that is what one of the original Jet-Packs Worked off of and
Some drag cars do aswell.
------------------
A wise man once said:
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
posted 03-10-2001 01:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I did play with the two stuff couple years ago. The oil is a super strong oxidizer, Mn2O7. (some books say Mn2O5)
Mixing H2SO4 and K2MnO4, the solution will turn dark green, and you will get very small amount of oil-like substance, which float on the surface of the solution. It's Mn2O7.
I picked up the tiny oil bead with a plastic stick and placed it on a stack of tissue paper. Within a second the oil bead turned into an orange(?) jet firing upwards.
Very unstable, the solution will even give out a dark red smoke that is barely noticable which I think is Mn2O3. The dark green solution degrade itself gradually as well.
ezekiel
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Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-10-2001 05:03 AM
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manganese heptoxide.
Dark green viscous liquid.
Partly soluable in sulphuric acid.
Violently unstable when in contact with organic substances.
------------------
Ezekiel
'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
posted 03-10-2001 12:17 PM
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Is manganese heptoxide explosive itself or only when in contact with organic substanses?
------------------
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
posted 03-11-2001 01:29 AM
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The contact of Mn2O7 with organic substance will initiate the violent decomposition, then
it go by itself.
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 03-20-2001 03:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a friend who mixed 200grams 98%H2SO4 and 200grams KMnO4(the jar was not clean...).It exploded and splitted the acid(all the shit mixture) on him, all his body was
injured by the waste and the flying glass. He havan't made any explosive since then. He survived with no serious demage but the scars will not disappear...
blackadder
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From: London
posted 03-21-2001 04:00 PM
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he sounds extremely stupid
simply RED
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From: HELL
posted 03-21-2001 04:07 PM
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Yes! But remmembre...The life is short, THE STUPIDITY- INFINITE!
YTS
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From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-01-2001 01:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not magnese heptoxide he would have to added cold water to get that far its magnese sulphate but still a dodgy explosive oil still sensitive to organic material
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
posted 04-02-2001 06:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's new to me that sulfates are explosive... a few weeks ago I read an article on this reaction and I think it was manganese heptoxide that forms during this reaction.
And ...ehm, your language is quite hard to understand.
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
posted 04-03-2001 02:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest you don't mix potassium permanganate and sulfuric acid. They can react violently, like when you mix the same acid with potasium clorate.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 04-03-2001 03:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last semester my chem30 teacher "flipper" did a demo in which he called the chemical battlefield. What he did was first he poured some con.H2SO4 in a graduated cycinder;
then gentally pour methal spirts on top of it(The methal spirts stayed on top do to its desity). He then dropped in less than a teaspoon of KMnO4. It passed through the methal
sprits with out problem but when it came in contact with the H2SO4 we started to see spaks in the liquid. It was very neat.
tom haggen December 12th, 2003, 08:29 PM

-Simply Red,
It sounds to me that there was some sort of organic residue on your friends beaker. If I was to ever try something of this nature I would make damm sure my glass is clean.
metal dragon December 12th, 2003, 10:39 PM

AXT has done some experiments with Mn2o7 and xylene. You can find a very impressive movie of this explosion in AXT signature. There is also thread that is in other explosive
section.
Does anyone know if manganese heptoxide can be substituted with manganese dioxide (MnO2)? Or are the other molecules important to the reaction? Or does the xylene just
react with the Mn in the compound so it really would make no difference?
Mumble December 12th, 2003, 11:54 PM

The xylene and manganese heptoxide react because manganese heptoxide is such a strong oxidiser. Manganese (IV) oxide is an oxidiser too, but not nearly as strong as
Mn2O7. It probably reacts somewhat with the xylene(It might need an acid though), but not fast enough to make the nice explosion you speak of
done by Axt.
xyz December 13th, 2003, 01:39 AM

It is actually quite a violent reaction mumble, a mixture of xylene and Mn2O7 will detonate by itelf within seconds. Axt placed a jar of each next to each other and then shot
them with a rifle.
T_Pyro December 13th, 2003, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by metal dragon
Does anyone know if manganese heptoxide can be substituted with manganese dioxide (MnO2)? Or are the other molecules important to the reaction? Or does the xylene just
react with the Mn in the compound so it really would make no difference?
Mn in Mn2O7 has an oxidation no. of +7, which is the highest possible oxidation no. for Mn. Hence, it can only be reduced, and therefore acts as a very strong oxidising agent.
Mn in MnO2 has an o.n. of +4, which is not nearly high as in Mn2O7, so it is not such a good oxidising agent. Compare KClO4, where Cl is in the +7 o.s., due to which it is
such a powerful oxidising agent.
Mumble December 13th, 2003, 07:06 PM

Yes, xyz, I am quite aware of the reaction. I have watched the video several times. I'm not so sure as to why you told me that exactly. Perhaps calling MnO2
Manganese (IV) Oxide instead of Manganese Dioxide threw you a bit. I just got used to calling it that from chemistry class.
Manganese (IV) oxide is an oxidiser too, but not nearly as strong as Mn2O7. It probably reacts somewhat with the xylene(It might need an acid though), but not fast enough
to make the nice explosion you speak of done by Axt. Or did that throw you off? I realize this may not be worded the best. "It" refers to MnO2 not Mn2O7. Sorry if you misinterpreted what I was trying to say.
vulture December 13th, 2003, 07:26 PM

MnO2 in acidic environment would oxidize xylene to it's corresponding aldehyde, VERY slowly...
xyz December 13th, 2003, 08:17 PM

Mumble, yeah, I misunderstood you. I thought that you meant that manganese heptoxide would react slowly with xylene.
zeocrash February 4th, 2004, 06:58 PM

i was wondering whether it would be possible to do a solvent extraction of Mn2O7 using DCM, i was looking at the patent for DCM extraction of NA and it mentions using it to
extract perchloric acid.
T_Pyro February 5th, 2004, 04:32 AM

Mn2O7 is a rather unstable compound, so even if you could extract it, it would be quite dangerous to handle. Minor oxidisable contaminants, and *POOF*. For what purpose
would you risk performing such a risky procedure?
zeocrash February 5th, 2004, 07:05 PM

i realise the dangers of MN2O7, i almost burnt my face off with the stuff when i put a contaminated stirring rod in to a beaker of it. anyhow i was planing to use it to make
permanganic acid, or produce myself some purified MN2O7 for the FAE with xylene.
Desmikes February 5th, 2004, 08:59 PM

I don't understand what is it so special about xylene? Mn2O7 burns on contact with other fuels just as well, and how exactly are you, Zeocrash, going to make an your FAE?
You need a lot of Mn2O7 to get anything worthwhile and I don't see how putting yourself to the greatest risk of handling that shit (not even talking about the $economy) would
properly pay off. Whatever you will get, will not even be classified as an FAE.
T_Pyro February 5th, 2004, 10:23 PM

Desmikes, I think you should take a look at the "Manganese Heptoxide / Xylene (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3142)" thread. There's
nothing difficult about the "$economy", either.
The Mn2O7 does not have to be very pure for a succesful FAE. If the use for your Mn2O7 is an FAE, perhaps you should spend more time in the construction of the containers.
There are lots of ideas in the above thread.
For permanganic acid, you should see the "permanganic acid (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46)" thread.
Regarding DCM, doesn't it get oxidised by Mn2O7? If not, what property of the compound renders it immune to oxidation?
Ropik April 22nd, 2004, 03:19 PM

Well, I experimented alot with this and I must say this: Do NOT mix this "oil" with powdered metals, mainly Al and Mg. If you are lucky, the mix will fizz and splash violently
out of container. If you are unlucky, the mixture will explode and cover you with burning metal, permanganate(if any unreacted is left) and with hot acid. It is NOT funny or
pleasant(although it not happened to me, I know it).
If you want to try this composition, mix it in very very small quantities and with gloves(acid and fire proof, if possible) and full face shield.
You can make very effective fire starter with this. Just pour the mix quickly on the firewood and it will catch fire in eight secs.
This material can make very effective filler for small incendiary devices, but for it's unstability... I personally don't want to carry something that unpredicable.

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FadeToBlackened
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Posts: 201
From: Hell
posted 03-26-2001 07:36 PM
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I don't know exactly where to post this but i think it goes here. It comes w/ a bit of a story but there IS a purpose to it.
My uncle buys houses down on the cheaper/crappy area of town. One of them he bought was from this guy who used to be in the military (WWII im pretty sure). The relatives
had came and taken most everything cool, but left everything, even family pictures and stuff. I did lots of searching (Man was this guy cool. Liquor bottles all along the top wall
of his garage, street signs with weird names, licensed junk collector, he even built an alarm for his garage hehe) I found some stuff of interest. A few old bullets, and an empty
grenade. The bullets were all good, and they were old. There were several pistol rounds. I now wish I had taken them, but I did manage to get some rifle round (im guessing
its a 308, but i'd have to check...)
Anyway i was walking through the garage and i saw the grenade and i was like WOAH! I went and picked it up. It was empty, but there was an orange ring painted around the
end of it, and the detonator was crimped shut. I found this container of a yellowish powder I assume was from the grenade. It even had the formula on it but it dont remember
it. It and Lead (Pb) and maybe Chromium (Cr) and he even drew a little skull and crossbones on it. Im not for sure but i think it was from the grenade. Any ideas on what it
was? (Im positive it had lead in it, and it was a yellowish powder (I also wish I had taken that too hehe.))
So. Any ideas?
SMAG 12B/E5
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From:
posted 03-26-2001 11:18 PM
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Fadetoblaken,
The yellow band around the neck of the grenade designates a live or war round, as a blue painted warhead denotes a practice round. One of the most common grenades
"pineapple style" of WWII was filled with flake TNT which is pale yellow and granular. I doubt if the yellow powder is other than what the label states, but never assume
anything that you are unsure of.
Mr Cool
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posted 03-27-2001 12:46 PM
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A toxic, yellow compound with Cr and Pb? That'll be lead dichromate, not for the grenade.
blackadder
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From: London
posted 03-27-2001 03:04 PM
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I believe that an explosive used in grenades is Lead pentolite. I may be wrong though.
FadeToBlackened
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From: Hell
posted 03-27-2001 05:40 PM
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Thanks for the info. But what use would an old guy have for lead dichromate? What is it used for?
Mr Cool
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posted 03-28-2001 04:04 PM
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As far as I know, it's used for absolutely nothing of importance.
Lead pentolite? Pentolite is itself an explosive, but maybe it's like lead picrate or lead styphnate (a lead salt of an explosive acid. I don't know if pentolite is acidic, though).
wantsomfet
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From: EU
posted 03-28-2001 05:34 PM
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Pentolite is a PETN/TNT mixture & used as a booster.
------------------
catfood.tsx.org
blackadder
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From: London
posted 03-29-2001 01:16 PM
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Yup, I knew I was talking shit
Mr Cool
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posted 03-29-2001 01:41 PM
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Pentolite is also the name for a single explosive compound. See "kitchen improvised plastic explosives II" I think for more details. But yes, it is the common name for a PETN/
TNT mixture.
wantsomfet
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Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 03-29-2001 03:39 PM
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In KIPE II there's a explosive called Pentryl but i can't find Pentolite...
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catfood.tsx.org
PHILOU Zrealone
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posted 04-06-2001 05:45 AM
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Lead Chromate is yellow unsoluble precipitate used in yellow paint for street signalisation.
Lead bichromate is also unsoluble but orange red....
Maybe it is the composition of the paint on the grenade.
------------------
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
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posted 04-19-2001 05:57 PM
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Oh, maybe I was thinking of pentryl or something else. Sorry!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > TAC P - Te tramine copper perchlorate -
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FadeToBlackened
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Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 04-08-2001 10:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to try m a k i n g s o m e o f t h i s a s s o o n a s I g e t m y h a n d s o n s o m e C u S O 4 (shouldn't be too hard.) Is there an
alternate to bubbling NH3 gas throught it? Maybe dissolving it in NH4OH and reflu xing for a while? Has anyone tried to m a k e
this stuff before? I don't have sodium perchlorate but the potassium salt (I know sodium is preferred because of its superior
solubility, right?)..
That's all.. Please tell m e anything you can.
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
posted 04-09-2001 09:56 AM
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I thought TAC was a low explosive similar in properties to m ercury fulm in ate.
W hat is the problem with bubbling am m onia through it ? All you have to do is get a sealed flask or jar with a tube com i n g o u t
of it and hea t s o m e a m m onia water. T he NH3 should be driven off by this heat.

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the freshm a k e r
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Posts: 175
From : Heave n
posted 03-14-2001 02:08 PM
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I know this is a sensitive and explosive chem ical, but are there any way of m aking this? -KMnO 4 a n d a m m o n i u m . . . . . . ?
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PHILOU Zrea lone

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Posts: 479
posted 04-04-2001 10:12 AM
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An idea very audacious would be- I don't say it is safe so do a little:
M n 2 O 7 + 2NH4O H--> 2NH4Mn O4 + H2O
M n 2 O 7 is not a funny substan ce to pla y with...explosive a n d m a d e f r o m KMnO4 with H2SO 4 conc
2KMnO 4 + H2SO 4--> Mn2O7 + K2SO4 + H2O
The_Rsert October 27th , 2004, 10:55 AM

Has anyone information about the solubilty in water and alcohole and the power?
Now, I'm runned out of MNO4, so I can't test ist by myself...
R_Chemist October 27th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 7 : 3 0 P M

Solu bility of Am m o n i u m p e r m a n g a n a t e , 8 . 0 g / 1 00g water @ 15C
VoD=1700m / s
I m ade between one or two grams of this last weekend. Thanks to Axt for the procedure. 2g KMnO 4 dissolved in 20m L boiling
water, 25g of solid amm onium nitrate added, cooled till crystalls appeared and water began to freeze. It was a slurry with ice
crystalls when I filtered it. It is a good idea not to leave the am m o n i u m p e r m a n g a n a t e i n a d a m p filter paper for too long or
the filter pap er turns black and very fragile whe n dry.
H e r e i s a t h r e a d o n a m m onium perma n g a n a t e
http://www.sciencema dness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11
PS: W h e n a m m onium perm anganate is lit by a m atch the resulting defla g r a t i o n s e e m s q u i t e u n e n ergetic.

Is it soulouble in ethanol, aceton or ether?
I'm o u t o f p o t a s s i u m p e r m a n g a n a t e ,
At the tim e, I have no acces to it.
So I can't test it by m eyself.

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Noct
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
posted 03-18-2001 12:27 PM
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I recently bought the ingredients that I need to make black powder from pyrotek (pot nitrate, sulfur, charcoal), and this will be my first homemade explosive (with homemade
ingredients anyway). I would like to know anything and everything about safety, strength, and danger having to do with making and using black powder.
I do have instructions, by the way, which are the method where you mix the ingredients, and add some water, then leave them in the sun to become a powder.
Any information would be appretiated.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-18-2001 02:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danger, very insensitive to shock and friction, not particulary sensitive to static discharge. Ignition temperature is roughly around 300*C.
The powder *can* be equal in performance to commercial BP but you need to use proper methods.
The method you describe seems to be some kind of variant of the CIA method, although it sounds like one of the anarchist crapbook methods.
Do a search to get some information on the best methods for BP and also some links to good sites, this has been discussed before.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
posted 03-18-2001 05:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with anthony,that sounds like a crapbook method all the way.But,if your serious about making BP than i could explain it all to you write now(NO),or you could just goto
www.ctel.net/~dwilliams to learn everything you need to know about BP.I would also reccomend buying the 2 books "Ball milling theory and practice for the amateur
pyrotechnician" by lloyd sponenbourg and "Black powder manufacturing methods and techniques" by Ian von Malts.You'll learne everything you need to know from those to
books(www.skylighter.com provides them both).Good luck,it's more work than it seems-Pyro
firebreether
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Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-18-2001 09:50 PM
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NOCT, if you bought the stuff you needed from pyrotek, why did you say it will be your first homemade explosive with homemade ingredients? You didn't make the ingredients
if you bought them from somewhere. Homemade ingr. would be like milling your own AL for Al powder, or making KClO3 with a chlorate cell. Anyway get a ball mill and best
of luck.
CragHack
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Posts: 618
From:
posted 03-18-2001 10:22 PM
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and for the love of god, don't ball mill all the ingrediants at the same time. no need to be another statistic for finstien to use in her war againts freedom.
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...
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 03-18-2001 11:04 PM
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I like to use a Coffee Mill. Saves you money so you can buy a digital scale?
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Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 03-19-2001 01:59 PM
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Craghack-What are you talking about,"do not mill all the ingrediants together"?You are supposed to mix them together!-Pyro
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Stand and be counted
DarkAngel
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Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 03-19-2001 02:11 PM
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Pyro:He says "don't BALL MILL all the ingredients at the same time" that something else than "MIX"
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com

sendtosection1@hotmail.com
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-19-2001 03:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP is really insensitive, I've always milled by ingredients together (the only way) and dry at that (don't mill if it cakes!). I reasoned that if Dan Williams does it then it must be
pretty safe.
CragHack
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Posts: 618
From:
posted 03-19-2001 03:59 PM
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i guess you could ball mill it all to get a nice mixture, but i wouldn't. one spark from the steel ball and kablammy. i would use lead balls if i were you if you are going to ball
mill it all together.
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...
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 03-19-2001 04:44 PM
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You are supposed to use hardend Lead(Pb)balls not steal.
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Anthony
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Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-19-2001 04:51 PM
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I do use (home cast) lead balls, I also run the mill outside away from the house and barracaded with wooden boards just incase.
I've tested BP by passing the spark from a stungun through a pile of BP, I gave it a good few second blast and nothing happened. AP on the other hand goes off immediately.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-19-2001 05:41 PM
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How did you home-cast lead?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-19-2001 07:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got two small blocks of wood, cut out a hemisphere in the centre of both, drilled through the centre of one hemisphere out the other side of the block of wood, clapmed the
pieces togther (so that there is a sphere of wood missing inside with a hole leading to it) and poured lead down the hole. After removing the lead shpere from the wood I just
sniped off the "stalk" (the lead that solidified in the filling hole).
Casting cylindrical media is easier, but probably not as efficient.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited March 19, 2001).]
Noct
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
posted 03-19-2001 07:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sorry, poor choice of words before. What I meant was, making the explosives from the chemicals that make it up. I have used matchheads, and stuff like that, but never
made the explosive myself, if that makes any sense. I think I am going to go with the crapbook method and see how it goes. Thank you all for the tips, though!
Perhaps I will go with a mill as a later project.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-19-2001 07:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are model rocket engines completley bp? Because their is a grey powder and a dark black powder in them. Im wondering because I just put some in my bp cannon, and it
made a pussy bang. But when I left the ram rod in it, it still made a pussy bang, but it sent the ram rod fliying like a bullet until it hit a garrage.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-19-2001 07:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The grey stuff at either end of the motor (nozzle and end plug) is clay. Under the clay endplug, there is the ejection charge which is granulated BP, under this is is a pressed
layer of grey delay composition. (on the motors I had, this stuff burned with a red flame) below this is that big black pressed BP fuel grain.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-19-2001 08:22 PM
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So I shouldnt use the delay?
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-19-2001 09:49 PM
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What is the MP of lead? How did you melt it then pur it into a mould?
Jumala
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Posts: 200
From: Germany
posted 03-19-2001 10:05 PM
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This is my favorit blackpowder mfg. info.
http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/monk01.html
The other informations at the elephant site are also very interesting.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
posted 03-19-2001 10:17 PM
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I forgot the leadballs.
It is unnesserary to make leadballs. You get them in gunshops in 20 or 50 pc. bags.
They are used for flintlock muskets and they are available up to 20mm diameter.
You can also use large chromated ballbearing balls. It isnt dangerous because blackpower is always mixed while its wet. And wet BP dont burn.
Read the monk01.html
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-20-2001 03:20 PM
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Melting point of lead is about 400*C (depending if it's alloyed at all) I melted it in an old saucepan on a gas camping stove, you can do it on the kitchen cooker as if no one
minds you making a bit of mess. A lid on the saucepan helps a lot and speeds up melting times. Also, when the lead is molten, turn the heat right down, (if the lead eventually
starts soldifying, turn the heat up a fraction) you don't want it to hot (mine went a gold colour when over heated).
Muskett balls are good if you can get them, I can't.
I've found that wet powders don't mill well, it just cakes on the side of the milling jar. So I always mill dry, btw steel media not being so heavy may take longer to mill as the
hammering effect will be less.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 03-21-2001 04:05 PM
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Anthony, why did the Pb turn gold when it was overheated?
Sounds strange.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-21-2001 05:36 PM
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Don't know, I just thought "that's getting too hot".
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 03-21-2001 08:59 PM
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because when heated, it turns into PbO2. the added oxygen turns the once greay Pb into an orangish PbO2.
------------------
...
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 03-22-2001 02:48 PM
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Oh, thanks Craighack.
oxyrad
New Member
Posts: 12
From: Perth,Western Australia
posted 03-26-2001 05:23 AM
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Could powdered graphite be used instead of charcoal.It is pure carbon?
------------------
YZ's are the best
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-26-2001 03:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graphite is pure carbon which wouldn't be as good as charcoal. Charcoal has slight impurities which make it burn faster.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
posted 03-26-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh no, graphite dont works for making BP.
Perhaps you get a powder from the black kind and perhaps it burns but it is no BP.
Read the monk01.html. the link is in my last reply.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-05-2001 03:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graphite is used to make the BP grain more glidy! It desensitise the powder to friction!

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mark
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Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-21-2001 06:43 PM
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I was messing around with acetylene, and I cant get the ballon bomb thing to work. I filled a balloon to softball size with acelitine, then tied it and lit it. It spit a little bit of fire,
but nothing else. I then tried blowing some air into the ballon until it was the size of a small basket ball and lit it. It made a pathetic poping noise and a flash the size of the
balloon. What is the best way to make acelitine ballons with calcium carbide?
And whats an easy way to make hydrogen?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 03-21-2001 08:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"i then tried blowing air into the baloon"
Somehow im assuming you put your mouth up to the ballon blowing. If that is the case. That is not air you are blowing in there and you need oxygen, not air.
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
posted 03-21-2001 08:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just follow the recipie on makeshift arsenal for hydrogen baloons. They 'explode' with a dull thud or low boom if you let them float up a bit before lighting them. (i like to tape
a bit of fuse to them, and let them float into a neighbours yard, where they explode)
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 03-21-2001 08:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any gas explosion depends on the fuel air mixture being within flammability limits, so I suspect your test balloon didn't contain enough air. The Gas Explosion Handbook
(thanks Anthony) is quite informative on the subject, and Chapter 4 provides information on explosive fuel-air ratios. http://www.cmr.no/english/gexcon/Handbook/
GEXHBchap4.htm
I would try partially inflating a balloon with air, and complete the filling from your acetylene source. A sealed container with a small spout will work if you mix calcium carbide
with water to generate the gas. Start small though - these things pack quite a wallop in terms of high temperature flame and potential ear damage.
Hydrogen can be generated by electrolyzing a solution of KOH using concentric electrodes and separating the pure hydrogen. I think I'd steer clear of this though - unless you
can get hydrogen in pressurized form it will be difficult to fill a balloon with it.
firebreether
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Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-21-2001 09:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I once used this = Al + NaOH to produce H2 gas, works good. Also HCl + Al. Makes a really deep boom. Pretty loud. I read somewhere you can electrolize water into O2 and
H2. You need to collect them in diff. balloons. I will try this soon.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-21-2001 09:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I tried filling the ballon by filling the ballon slightly with calcium carbide, the atatching the balloon to a bottle filled with water. I filled the ballon to about 5 inches in diameter.
Then I atatched the ballon to a bickle pump and pumped it up an inch larger. I tied it and lit it. It made a hell of a flash, but a realy low sound. It also had no power, because i
put a little toy car on it, and when the ballon went of, the car just fell to the ground.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-21-2001 09:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh and that site is http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/projects/chloralkali/index.html the reaction is NaCl + H2O -> NaOH + Cl2 + H2. This is strangely the same reactants
as in a chlorate cell so I don't know if they are leaving things out. The Cl2 comes off the anode and H2 is produced at the cathode. They use carbon rods out of old batteries.
You could collect the H2 gas and use it in a balloon. furthermore add Al to the NaOH produced and get even more H2.
[This message has been edited by firebreether (edited March 21, 2001).]
c0deblue
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Posts: 229
From:
posted 03-22-2001 02:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gas mixture explosions can be very loud and hot, but they really don't have much energy unless there's a very large volume of fuel/air. I've tried oxygen/acetylene mixtures in
cannons (1-litre soda bottle filled with mixed gas) - great sound and fury but a six-pound sabboted projectile only traveled about 12 feet.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 03-22-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely mixing Al with NaOH produces Aluminium hydroxide and sodium metal? Please forgive my horrible knowledge of chemistry, I'm only on my first year.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-22-2001 03:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're using electrolysis to get H2, why bothere seperting the gases??? Just use it as-is and you've got a nice oxy-hydrogen mix.
If making H2 with NaOH + Al, use a condenser because the reaction gets very hot, if you simply put the ballon straight on top of the reaction vessel the ballon will get filled
with a lot of water vapour. When you tie off the ballon, the watre vaput will condense, shrinking the ballon and also weigh it down so that it will not float.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-22-2001 04:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah but I thought when O2 and H2 where in the right proportions they spontaneously form H2O. Which means that the balloon would never fill up with gas.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 03-22-2001 08:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes gas mixe are indeed dangerous. Baloons are a bit wimpy for making big bangs though. Heavy duty extra large gargabe bags are chaos when they go off. Be extremly far
away if you do this. Its deafening. Also be very careful. At my dads work they used to do this quite often. Until a guy he knew got a leg blown off because of static electricity.
If you do use the garbage bag, make sure there are no holes and it is perfectly sealed.
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Explosives Archive
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 03-23-2001 12:18 AM
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A good idea when dealing with gas mixtures (and other sensitive materials) is to treat the balloon, garbage bag, or container with a conductive or anti-static spray (available as
a laundry product or for treating plastics, electronic worksurfaces etc.). Use proper grounding procedures such as those recommended when handling sensitive electronic
devices. Be especially cautious with vehicles - ever notice the shock you sometimes get when exiting a car? A good precaution (long used on certain types of trucks) is to
ground the vehicle using a steel strip or small chain connected to the vehicle chassis and long enough to drag on the ground. This will prevent a static charge from building up.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-28-2001 07:27 PM
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You all have been verry helpfull, but please, treat me like an idiot. Can someone help me with a step by step accelitine bomb thing.
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
posted 03-28-2001 08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You should be able to work it out, no one's going to give you 'step by step' instructions. Ask specific questions, but don't be lazy.
J
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"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John
'Lofty' Wiseman
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 03-28-2001 08:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It never ceases to amaze me how, with the greatest repository of human knowledge (internet) at their fingertips, some people STILL can't find the answer to even a simple
question.
Use a search engine, moron!
------------------
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-28-2001 09:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I guess I should put this here since we are talking about air/fuel mixes. Some people have said that combustion spudguns can only reach 15 psi. This is literally
impossible, as 14.7 psi is standard pressure. This means the projectile won't go anywhere. Obviously we all know that this is not the case. The reason these guns work is that
when the mix ignites its products are like at least 5 times the temp in K as the reactants. This translates to 5 times the pressure. Which means 15 * 5 = 75 psi. Now say you
used something like Acetylene. When mixed in equal proportion with air this will have an 8 or 9 times the temp after reaction. This yields 15 * 8 = 120 psi. Hydrogen, in correct
amounts with air produces a temp of about 7 or 8 times. 105 psi. So as you can see, the pressures are greater than just 15 psi.
But please note that the actual yield will be slightly smaller for a couple reasons. One, to produce this temp the gases have to be in THE right proportions, if wrong proportions
are used ( as will be) slightly lower pressures are obtained. Two, this one can be considered VERY negligeable, when many gases like H2 combust, they decrease the amount
of moles of product, however since air is used it is mostly nitrogen , the # of moles wouldn't be decreased much, so this wouldn't have a great effect on the pressure.
Just venting, as when I saw this on a site I got pissed.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 03-28-2001 10:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when you talk about pressuere you are usualy talking about how much it is above or below ambient pressure. if you ever shoot a pneumatic spudgun it takes effort to pump
up to 15 psi and then when you shoot at 15 psi the projectile moves! dosent it! all we are talking about here is "OVERPRESSURE" (I think)
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 03-29-2001 12:54 PM
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I've always heard about 30psi above atmospheric pressure, it seems reasonable.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 03-29-2001 03:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
your right, the pressure difference is really what matters. But you know you're right, you have to pump like a bat outta hell to get a small bike tire to any reasonable pressure,
and a spudguns chamber is much bigger than a bike tire.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-29-2001 06:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: "Use a search engine, moron!"
I have. I got somthing about gingerblast 99, the darwin awards, and somthing to do with general paton.
So because the search engine option has failed, I have come hear seeking help. So far Ive been treated with knowledge about atmospheric presures and spud guns, but
nothing on how to make an acelitine ballon bomb.
So how can I make a bang with ballons and calcium carbide?
(I'm not talking about OUR search engine, I meant something like Google ( www.google.com ) or Hotbot ( www.hotbot.com ). Try "acetylene" and "explosive limits". The very
first hit on Google gave the exact info needed. The fact that you didn't find it means you're lazy! OOPS! My mistake. You couldn't find the information because you don't know
how to spell ACETYLENE properly. Maybe a spellchecker would help you. OOPS! My mistake again, WE HAVE ONE! I'd suggest you use it. NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited March 30, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited March 30, 2001).]
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
posted 03-29-2001 10:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read this from one of the "cookbooks", but I think it works. Also, if you read the Darwin Awards, you would see that acetylene mixtures can be quiet dangerous so please be
carful. Anyway, here is the basic idea. Get a glass bottle that your balloons can securely fit on. Fill the bottle up about 1/2 or 2/3 with the calcium carbide. Then put in enough
water to cover the calcium carbide (I guess it don't float, if it does just put in a 50-50 mix of the two chemicals). So just put the calcium carbide in a beer bottle (clean it out),
put in some water, put on a balloon, and wait. And a way to make Hydrogen is Al foil in HCl (I think). Good luck.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 03-31-2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used Yahoo. I copied and pasted the word acetylene from another website, and thats what I got.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
posted 04-02-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cricket recipe is right,
they use the same procedure in steel tube and oxygen tank to do the acetylene welding
Watchout the reaction with the water is vigorous and it also boils the water.. make sure you have the right confinement....you don't want to taste hot boiling water with
calcium carbide on your face
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 04-02-2001 11:05 PM
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After filling do i just tie and light?
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
posted 04-03-2001 02:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
umm... you might want to step back a bit before lighting it. From what I hear it hurts when you get your face burnt badly
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
posted 04-03-2001 03:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To answer blackadder's earlier question :
The reaction gives sodium aluminate and hydrogen. Water is also a reactant.
Na2Al2O4, useless.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 04-03-2001 09:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I always wondered what the other product would be. Cool HMTD factory.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > sulfur - Archive File
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endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
posted 04-03-2001 07:34 PM
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b e s i d e s u s e a s a s e n s i t i z e r , w h a t i f a n y a r e s o m e o f t h e f u e l / o x i d i z e r m ixtures fo r sulfur and or anyother explosive
compsistions that can be prod uced from sulfur
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-03-2001 08:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, i am sure m e and everyone else here could list every flash com position that includes "S", but i don't think that is such a
hot idea. hows about you search the forum , and if you still have questions about mixtures containing "S" then ask. but i am
sure you will find tons of m ixtures, enough to tide you over for a good long while.
wow did that sound REALLY condisending or what! that is the way i m eant it. search first then post. obviously you are not the
first person to ask this question, or one VERY sim ilar... com e on for 's sa k e .
------------------
...
[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited April 03, 2001).]
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
posted 04-03-2001 08:30 PM
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W ell i'm sure craghack talks a lot of shit...ok, everyone could list a flash com position that contains "S" but i said not used as a
sensitizer, not just com positions that include "S" as a sensitizer, i m eant using sulfur directly for use as a o xidizer, is it
possible, would it work if i m elted sulfur with sugar?
And P.S if u do a search for sulfur i get basically nothing directly relevant to m y question, except for the zin c/sulfur rocket fuel
post
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y e n d o t h e r m (edited April 03, 2001).]
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-04-2001 03:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
didn 't you ask for explosive com positions that contained sulfur? i kindly responded that there are m any flash com ositions th at
contain sulfur and all you have to do is search. i am sure if you looked up "flash" or "flash powder" you would get som ething.
what specifically do you want to do with the sulfur? do you have any idea or are you lookin g for someone to tell you what you
c a n d o a n d t h e n d e t e rm ine yourself, with the chem icals you have, whether or not you can do that? i think you have som ething
in m ind just don't know if you can do it.
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...
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-04-2001 04:29 PM
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A 50/50 m ix of Al/S will burn without Oxygen present. However, it won't explode when confined.
P l e a se attem pt to use proper gram m a r , t h e n p e o p l e m ight take you m ore seriously.
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probab ly be the easiest to eat even if you don't
need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 04-05-2001 01:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sulfur isn't an oxidise r. it won't burn under confinement unless m ixed with an oxidiser.
the freshm a k e r
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 175
From : Heave n
posted 04-05-2001 08:15 AM
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SATANIC:
That is not true. When Zinc/sufur burns/explodes the sufur is the oxidizer and the zinc is the fuel. It's a litle weird to explain
b u t a s I r e m e m ber it is som ekind of electron-e xchange between the two chem icals.
PS. If you still don't belive m e then try m ixing 8gr Zn. and 2gr S. Use it in a firecraker/bom b under confinem e n t . T R Y I T !
------------------
good boy with bad ideas
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 04-05-2001 04:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S can't be an oxidiser. I think Zn/S is a chem ical reaction like therm ite, when the enough energy is applied (lighting) the
chemicals react and decom p o s e , r e l e a s i n g g a s e s a n d e n o u g h h e a t t o s u s t a i n t h e r e a c t i o n .
I can't explain this very well at all.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-05-2001 07:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well as far as i am concerned we are all talking about two different oxidizers. in pyrotechnics, an oxydizer supplies O x y g e n t o a
reaction so a s to sustain the burning. now, when you talk about electron sharing sulfur is a pretty strong ox idizer. if everyone
will whip out there hig hschool chem istry periodic tables you will notice that the closer you g et to flourine (going from left to
right, francium and cesium to chlorine brom ine and flourine) the m ore affinity the atoms have for electrons. and if i am not
m istaken, Sulfur is located som ewhere around O xygen, flourine chlorine and bromine on the periodic table. so esse ntially
Sulfur is a strong oxizider in o ne sense and not in another. in th e zinc sulfur reaction i actually agree with a nthony in the the
m etal gives up electrons and sulfur takes them ... thus you have the reaction. but when you are talking the way endotherm is
talking NO, Sulfur is not an oxidizer, not in the sense that it provides oxygen to the reaction... (DU H!) for a n e x a m ple of this
think of a fla sh composition with potasium perchlorate and alum inum . in this the potasium chlorate is the oxydizer because it
lend s t h e o x y g e n a t o m s to the reaction.
------------------
...
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
posted 04-05-2001 08:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W O W ! who was to think a whole conversation/debate would develop from one incorrect word, i know sulfur is not a oxidizer, i
m eant to say fuel but than i thought of the Zn/Sulfur mixture and in that the sulfur is definitley som e k i n d o f a n ( o x i d z e r ) o r
s o m ething that is supporting a fuel, so anyway, i basica lly just got confused
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-05-2001 08:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why are you so suprised. there is a HUGE difference between things classified as fuels, in a reaction, and th ings classified as
oxydizers. hell in different rea ctions a fuel CAN be an oxydizer a nd an oxydizer a fuel. so watch wh at you say. i reca ll a story
W AY back when m e g a l o m ania 's girl asked him to look up a word, a chem ical ui think it wa s a n d s h e added a letter by accident.
an "S" i believe it was. and this fucked it all up. the m oral of the story. PRO OFREAD!
------------------
...
endotherm
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 164
From : d u n n o
posted 04-05-2001 09:41 PM
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I don't proofread, it ain't my style.
Nah Just kidding, my slip up
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-07-2001 11:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very interesting. According to skylighte r, in zinc/sulfur com positions, sulfur is used as an oxidizer. Goto http://
www.skylighter.com/chem ical.htm
and scroll down the Sulfur flower. I just dont know anym ore.
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited April 07, 2001).]
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-08-2001 04:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
didn 't you read my post above (the on e on april 5th at 7:49 pm...) that explains it all. that explains the difference between
the oxydizers and fuels in different reactions. it explains how som ething like sulfur can be a n o x i d y z e r a n d a f u e l .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Easiest to make low explosive - Archive File
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ThIoDeN
New Member
Posts: 17
From:
posted 04-07-2001 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since I have little experience with explosives, made some long time ago, i want to know what the easiest, safest LE is to make.
Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
posted 04-07-2001 10:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think black powder
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 04-07-2001 05:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you trying to do?
If you're trying to make a bang, then you could use
confined BP
KCLO4/Al,
KMNO4/Al,
KCLO3/Mg,
NaClO3/sugar,
KCLO3/sugar,
KNO3/abscorbic acid,
see what I'm getting at!
state specifically what your intent is, then it will be easier to help you.
[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited April 07, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
posted 04-07-2001 06:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually blackadder, he already did. He said he wants a safe (so no permanganate/Al mixes) mixture which is easy to make (so probably not BP). I would suggest H3, that
seems about as safe as BP, and easy to make.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-07-2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making good quality BP is an art, certianly not an easy pyro comp to make a bang.
For easy bangs I'd say, KNO3/ascorbic acid is a good suggestion, although I haven't tried it myself, it's apparently very easy to make and works well.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited April 07, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
posted 04-07-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something I want to know is... I remember NBK mentioning a formula (KNO3 + Vit C but also with charcoal) and saying it was called something like "Sulphurless gunpowder".
Now, if we look at that formula, we can see that the Vit C is taking the place of the sulphur, and so could be seen as a replacement for sulphur. So, could Vit C be used as a
replacement for sulphur in a KClO3-type black powder? Food for thought..
------------------
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-07-2001 08:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, the easiest and safest rarely go together. I'd say that the various KClO3/fuel comps are by far the easiest to make. However, they are not the safest by any
means, and not a great choice for a beginner (still, a lot safer than making AP I suppose).
Black powder is definitely the safest IMO, but it is difficult to make good stuff. The fastest burning BP I've ever made was using a friends rock tumbler as a ball mill. I've almost
finished building my own ball mill now, you might want to check my site during the next two weeks for the results of my milling experiments.
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-08-2001 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The trouble with VitC is that it costs about 3 for 15gm, whereas sulphur cost 2 for a kilo or two.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-08-2001 03:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where is everyone getting this mentality that BP is safe to make!?!?If you have read up or made BP(i've done both) then you'd know that Bp is by far not the safest LE or safe
in comparison to a KCI03 fuel mixture.By the way,the fastes BP i've made was by ball milling for a very long time(60 hours) and then pressing it with a 6 ton hydraulic press
for about 15 minutes. That is just the run down of the process but if you want me to get into details i gladly will if you are serious about making BP.-Pyro
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-08-2001 04:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackpowder certainly isn't safe, no pyro composition is. The reason I say KClO3/Fuel comps are more dangerous than BP is because they are more friction/shock sensitive,
more powerful, and there are risks of contaminants (Sulphur and Copper are two chemicals that spring to mind) making the comp unstable. What would you say is the safest
LE?
J
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-08-2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP is safe! It's very insensitive to impact, friction, electrical discharge and doesn't ignite for a good few hundred degrees C. The only risk is with chlorate contaminants which
aren't hard to avoid.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
posted 04-08-2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VitC propellant doesn't have any charcoal in it. Read my PDF file for the exact details and formulations.
------------------
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-08-2001 07:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you reffering to this:
Ammonpulver
A powder which contained no sulfur an was made from 40 to 45 per cent potassium nitrate, 35 to 38 per cent ammonium nitrate, and 14 to 22 per cent charcoal.
Improved Amidpulve
Made from potassium nitrate 14 per cent, ammonium nitrate 37 per cent, and charcoal 49 per cent, gives a flashless discharge when fired in a gun and only a moderate
amount of smoke.
------------------
Explosives Archive
boo-radley
New Member
Posts: 7
From: wodonga, victoria, australia
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 07:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A low explosive could be made from melting wax and mixing that with petrolium and grinded KNO3 it has a shelf life of about half a year and it is very safe and not an
extremly high burn rate. But the only problem is you need a blasting cap to set it off. But if you hae another way of setting it off you are quiet welcome to try.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-08-2001 09:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I think the safest LE is probably KNO3/sugar because even though it will spew nasty liquid and smoke all over the place if you do it wrong, it most likely will not harm
you(when was the last time you heard of KNO3/sugar being used for other things than a smoke comp. or rocket fuel?). What boo suggested sounds extremely safe to me, the
wax would slow down the already slow burn rate of the KNO3 and if it's true that you need a D. cap to make it go boom it must be hard to detonate/ignite anyway. By the
way Anthony, you are right that BP is quite shock/friction insensitive but in the process of making BP you have many pains-takingly hazardis steps(one that jumps out at me is
corning). Once again, if you've made it,you'd know how scary it is to corn a half pound cake of BP with a baseball bat and pan.-Pyro
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-08-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you need a blasting cap to set off an explosive, that usually means its a HE. kno3 doenst detonate so i think that information is BS.
------------------
Explosives Archive
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 04-09-2001 10:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont have to melt Kno3 and Sugar, it will still work powdered, and melting it increases the risk of an accidental initiation (Right Darkangel )
Pretty sure the ignition temperature increases when its powdered though.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited April 09, 2001).]
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 04-09-2001 11:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when you melt it, there is a more of an intimate mix between the two chemicals. (Anthony said that in one of his previous posts)
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-09-2001 02:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with ALEN on this one, i think that info is BS. Notice in my earlier post how i said "if that info is true".-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-09-2001 02:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never made more than an attempt to corn my BP as it worked well enough as a meal powder. Although I'm sure grinding a half pound cake can be nerve racking, it's all
physcological as there's no way it could ignite (by the grinding action).
I agree that KNO3/vaseline/wax info sounds like BS the burn rate would be pathetic and too slow for anything but slow smoke. Although it could be ignited with some KNO3/
sugar A blasting cap certainly wouldn't ignite it, just scatter it everywhere.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-09-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony-There are things that could ignite the cake. For one, i know any pyro worth there salt would know not to grind up a cake of BP indoors which means it would pick of
moisture from the air, which is not a good thing. Also, if you were stupid using an aluminum/any metal type of bat or pot the friction caused by whaling on the it could ignite
the cake. Another thing, since sulfur's property's lend themselves to static shock, if you were wearing anything like fleece or conductive shoes it could ignite from that static. BP
is not as safe as it would be percieved. Although most of the above could be avoided it is STILL dangerous.-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-09-2001 07:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course BP can be dangerous, any explosive is dangerous it's just how dangerous it is.
Grinding the cake indoors is better than doing it outside in the rain...
I've discharge a 100 000 volt stungun through a pile of BP and it did didly squat. It's take a pretty serious static discharge to ignite it.
I think aluminium on wood isn't going to create anywhere near the amount of friction required to ignite the BP. Although the KNO3 could react with the Al pot causing the
mixture to become dangerous alhtough this would be very unlikely.
I realise that BP can be dangerous, but I maintain that it is one fo the safest LE around.
kingspaz May 19th, 2003, 05:19 PM

just wondering, how fast is the vitc/KNO3 powder comapred to say black powder, H3 and flash?
it seems an interesting propellent.
arm May 19th, 2003, 08:06 PM

Isnt 'Golden Powder' just a mix of KNO3/L-isomer Ascorbic Acid. If i remember correctly, its faster than BP when well mixed, probably not quite as fast as H3 and nowhere near
as fast as flash. I dont know how it is for hydroscopicity, but i imagine that it would be worse than BP.
Marvin May 19th, 2003, 11:43 PM

Golden powder isnt a mixture, its an unidentified polymer containing fine nitrate crystals formed by baking a solution of the two in an oven. You are right to think its rather
hygroscopic. Chlorate mixtures certainly are not safer than BP, and additionally they are toxic. KNO3/Sugar is pretty safe unless your melting it for a rocket core, but I doubt its
much use as an actual explosive, or a lift powder.
As a first LE, Id suggest making KNO3/C, dry ground seperatly, then wet ground in a rock tumbler. This sort of mixture teaches the importance of processing of pyrotechnic
mixtures which I think is more important than the effect produced. I dont think anyone can get very far dabbling in fireworks without a rock tumbler or ball mill of some kind,
maybe people disagree, but Ive tried to use pestle and mortars and it just wasnt worth the very hard work to produce tiny amounts of inferior powders. Particulaly for BP,
which is very sensitive to processing. I was using P+M for years and got nowhere very slowly before I was shown the light by someone suggesting 'rock tumbler' and 'marbles'
in the same sentance.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Q uestion on craterm akers - Archive File
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EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
posted 04-27-2001 01:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I call crater makes "cobs" (CO 2Bomb is where that comes from)which is the nam e u s e d f o r them in Diary of a Pyro. Anyway...I
was thinking about ta p i n g a c o b o n t o a n a e r o s o l c a n . H a s a n y o n e d o n e t h i s b e f o r e ? W hat happened? I think hairspray would
be best but does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks.
btw, hoping for quick replies, I plan to test it to m m orow if possible!
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 04-27-2001 02:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would alm ost definately rupture the can, and the heat would b e at least likely to ignite it, m aybe another source of ignition
after the cob has gon e of would possibly help. Really, there's on ly one way to find out
Hvoroba
New Mem ber
Posts: 27
From : Israel
posted 04-27-2001 03:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e s e a r e c a lled CNG bom bs - C o m p r e s s e d N a t u r a l G a s b o m b s . T h e b e s t c a n i s t e r t o u s e i s a b u t a n e o r p r o p a n e c o m p r e s s e d
gas tank, which are readily available at superm arkets for the purpose of refilling lighters.
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 592
From : ?
posted 04-27-2001 05:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don`t think the gas inside the aerosol will ignite,The gas will probable blow the fire out,I heard som ething about charcoal
soaked in a gasoline(Light it and wait till the charcoal glowes) there you can put the aerosol can up and when it explode the
charcaol still glowes a nd ignite the gas.
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1

s e n d t o s e c t i o n 1 @ h o t m ail.com
EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
posted 04-27-2001 09:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Propane tanks are way too strong for a cob unless it had a HE or flash powder. I was think ing of butane, but the only ones I
h a v e s e e n a r e r e a l l y s m all and cost a lot more than some generic hairspray. A road flare would be another good way to ensure
ignition of the hairspray, but it would m a k e a l o t m ore light than I want. I will probably try it with no extra ignition source and if
that doesnt work use a flare o r charcoal briquet next tim e .
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
posted 04-27-2001 01:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You could leave a burning blowtorch on the ground, in the vicinity of the bom b . T h e b o m b w o u l d b e a " c o b " s t u c k t o a b u t a n e
canister. Tha t would ensure ignition.
michael_52187 May 20th, 2003, 11:20 PM

I' ve tried this cob and aeroso l thing....
it's pretty neat if you have a place to do it... yo u ' l l h e a r a l a r g e e x p l o s i o n f r o m t h e c o b a n d y o u ' l l a l s o h e a r t h e c a n e x p l o d e ,
which makes a huge fireball (i used a spray paint can):D
Rat Bastard May 21st, 20 03, 10:5 8 PM

Zero The Inestimable (before he quit pyro) documented quite a few cob/aerosol explosions. Check it out:
Images
Spraypaint Fireball (http://krimzonpyro.com /zero/Zero%2005a%20-%20Yellow%20Spraypaint%20Detonation.jpg)

Starter Fluid Fireball (http://krim zonpyro.com /zero/Zero %2008%20-%20Starter%20Fluid%20Deton ation.jpg)
Movies:
Spraypaint Fireball (http://krimzonpyro.com /zero/Zero%2007%20-%20Spraypaint%20Explosion.avi)
http://krim z o n p y r o . c o m / z e r o / Z e r o % 2 0 0 9 % 2 0 - % 2 0 S p r a y p a i n t % 2 0 E x p l o s i o n % 2 0 T h a t % 2 0 D o e s n ' t % 2 0 S u c k . a v i * D a m n c o d e
wont work*
Nigh ttim e Starter Fluid Frieball (http://krim z o n p y r o . c o m / z e r o / Z e r o % 2 0 1 0 a % 2 0 -

%20Starter%20Fluid%20Under%20the%20Stars.avi)
Nigh ttim e Spraypaint Fireball (http://krim zonpyro.com /zero/Zero%2010b%20-%20Spraypaint%20Under%20the%20Stars.avi)
This is all form his se cion on m y site: Zero's Media (http://krim zonpyro.com/zero )
Arthis May 22nd, 2003, 05:19 AM

Pretty nice pics.
I guess they were m etal spray cans ? W hat did you use to m a k e ' e m e x p l o d e ?
xyz May 22nd, 2003, 05:44 AM

Zero just tapes craterm a k e r s t o t h e s i d e o f t h e a e r o s o l c a n s .
BTW , If you are going to use a craterm aker with a HE in it then you will need a se perate ignition source for the aerosol once it
is ru ptured. I use a container of KNO3/Sucrose rocket fuel that is set up so that it starts burning a few seconds before the
cratermaker goes off (there is enough rocket fuel to burn for about 7 secobnds, so it is still burning when the can is ruptured).
I then attach this container to the aerosol on the opposite side to the cratermake r.
green beret May 24th, 2003, 02:02 AM

I a m actually about to try one of these, using a sparkler as ignition for the fuel, and a cob full of blackpowder to rupture the
b u t a n e c a n . T h e s p a r k l e r m ight get blown out, so I m ight use a different ignition source. I'll post my results when I set it off.
Rat Bastard May 24th, 2003, 03:15 PM

I forgot to add, Zero m entioned that when he taped the cob to the aerosol can, a nd had the cob U NDERNEATH the can, it would
usually not ignight the aerosol contents. He m entioned that having the cob ABOVE the can would usually ignite the can
contents, as in those pics&movies I showed.
http://krim zonpyro.com/rat/boardim age/cobspray.gif
Zero used Black powder in all of his cobs.
xyz May 24th, 2003, 09:44 PM

I will also add at this point that those cans of b utane that look like aerosols with no spray button work better than n orm al
a e r o s o l s a n d are usually cheaper too.
They look lik e l a r g e a e r o s o l c a n s a n d a r e m a d e f o r u s e i n s m a l l c a m p i n g s t o v e s , y o u c a n g e t a p a ck of four for $7.50AUD,

that's about 1 US dollar each.
Rat Bastard May 25th, 2003, 04:09 PM

Yeah those ones are such a better deal than the lighter refill ones. This 4 pack cost me like $7Canadian while, just one of
those lighter refill bottles cost me $5.75Canadian.
http://krim zonpyro.com/rat/boardim a g e / b u t a n e . j p g
THErAPIST May 26th, 2003, 01:31 AM

H a s a n y o n e e v e r t r i e d t a p i n g a C O 2 g r e n a d e t o a c a n o f a c e t o n e ? H a v e a r a g s o a k e d i n 5 0/50 gasoline and oil sitting a couple
feet away on fire. I have put CO2 gren ades IN sm all cans of gasoline and such but never taped anything to the side of a can
of butane or the like. I should really upload all of the pics I have of my CO2 grenade experim ents. Too bad I only have
pictures of 1/3 of the CO2 gre nades I have set off. Since were already on this subject, has anyone ever tried putting a box of
say.. flour ontop of a CO2 gre nade? Do unpressurized things like flour of non dairy coffee cream e r d o t h e s a m e t h i n g a s a c a n
of butane or spray paint?. I personally have a hard tim e getting things like NAP charges to light reliably unless I add a large
a m ount of BP to the NAP or cream er.
Cyclonite May 29th, 2003, 01:05 PM

I h a v e f o u n d a d d i n g s o m e AL powder into the cob will usually give the ignition effect one seeks to obtain to initiate the fuel
o f o n e s c h o i c e . T h e c o b I u s e d was with flas h a n d s o m e AL powder tape d t o a starter fluid can. I didn t r e a l l y t a k e a n y
m e a s u r e m ents with the % or AL but Ill try som e o u t a n d p o s t t h e % .
The Crazed June 8th, 2003, 05:41 PM

I just tried one of the s e " c o b s " a n d m y results were pretty bad. I filled a co2 half way up with BP and stuck a fuse in it. W h e n
lit, it just made a large puff and flew about fifty feet away and sm ashed into a tree. My BP is pretty fine and worked well in
other devices of mine, so I have no clue what went wrong. How far should I fill them up with the BP or should flash powder work
better? Please help if you can.
NickSG June 8th, 2003, 08:26 PM
If you BP works in other devices, im thinking th e fuse hole was too large. It should only be about 1/8 inch diameter, but can
b e m a d e l a r g e r , b u t a s t r o n g g l u e m u s t b e m o l d e d a r o u n d t h e f u s e t o k e e p t h e g a s e s i n t h e r e w h e n i t e x p lodes.
Flash powder will definatly work. The fuse hole can be a little larger than with the black powder, but it does help to k e e p i t a s
s m a ll as possible.
No matter what explosive you use, be extra careful to keep you and all others and property a safe distance from them . They
throw shrapnel, which has killed before . W e a k e x p l o s i v e s d o n o t p r o d u c e a s m uch shrapnel, but it can still easily kill, injure, or
do large am ounts of property damage.
The Crazed June 9th, 2003, 09:26 PM

I guess you're right, the hole was quite big. If I m a k e i t s m aller though, what would be the best way to fill it? The last time I
tried to fill even the big hole it was quite hard. Any suggestions?
grammarless June 10th, 2003, 01:14 AM

I have a suggestion. If you are using starter spray or som ething like it set it upright. I had one on the side and the top blew
off throwing lots of the fire to the side, not up. The fireball would have been a lot more im pressive if it was upright, plus it
started a large leaf fire.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Whats a good impact sensitive low explosive - Archive File
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CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-09-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm making a simple rocket launcher from PVC, I'll use my whistle mix rockets and flash powder as my main charge. I want to know what would be a good impact sensitive
mixture to put on the tip of my rockets to detonate the flash powder on impact. I was thinking of something like potassium chlorate and sulfur, or something with phosphorous,
I forget. Any help would be appreciated.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
posted 04-09-2001 10:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what i hear, KClO3 + S doesnt always need a shock to go off.. Just rough handling
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
posted 04-09-2001 11:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An emptied(but still primed) rimfire case works extremely well as a projectile-tip initiator. The plus side is that the primer being protected by brass case, and controlled
sensitivity.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-10-2001 10:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think you'd need a prime for a flash powder. Flash is friction,shock, and heat sensitive so i think if it hits something solid(like a tree) it'll explode.BTW,what kind of flash
are you using?-Pyro
CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-10-2001 11:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm using flash powder made 70/30 potassium perchlorate and and German Dark 400 mesh alum. powder. It's pretty stable, I'm still alive. I want my rockets to be able to hit
something soft like soft ground(where the geese stand around) and still blow up, it will be moving pretty fast when it hits th ground.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 04-10-2001 01:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, perchlorates are more stable but will still initiate from shock, especially from a rocket, those things come down fast.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-10-2001 09:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, perchlorates are alittle more stable than chlorates and if you want to be sure of ignition i guess you could add sulfur but be extremely careful as perchlorates and sulfur
tend to be more sensitive than one would want them to be.Anyway's,lets here about the schematics of the launcher!-Pyro
CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-10-2001 10:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got the idea from www.xinventions.com, I'll take a 2" by 4' piece of PVC and put an end cap on one end. I'll take one of my rocket engines and put some sort of circulir tube
like a toilet paper tube mayble bigger or smaller I haven't checked to see if it fits yet, and I'll put pieces of balsa wood to fit between the engine and the tube and then a nose
cone with flash powder as the main charge and an empty .22 shell as the initiator that will set off the flash powder when the rocket hits something,(hopefully a goose if my
aiming is good). Maybe I'll use a mix of potassium chlorate and sulfer instead of the .22 shell, I'm hoping on getting some more ideas and opinions. I'll put a push button
ignition sytem on the outside of the PVC with wires running inside to an ignitor,so I can hold it like a rocket launcher.
SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 04-10-2001 11:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want a certain detonation on impact, don't ever depend upon a shock sensitive mixture alone. Design a fuze system with a primer that is struck by a firing pin. An inertia
type system is more certain than a point detonating system. The simplefied description is a firing pin having some mass with a spring between the firing pin and the primer.
Upon impact the body of your unit stops while the firing pin continues forward, overcoming the spring, and stricking the primer, igniting the filler/detonator. This system lends
itself to safing with a pin or setback/slider.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-11-2001 03:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree, go with the .22 ignitor, having your whole payload ignitior sensitive could be asking for trouble. You could have the .22 removable and only insert it before you fire so
that the rounds are safe to transport and handle.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-11-2001 04:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if your using rockets(obviously) i would suggest forgetting the idea of makeshift fins and all that nonsense.This is where my beloved stinger missles come into mind.These
are just rocket engines that have an ignition system on the side of them which makes them spin,stablizing their flight,thus spin stablized missles.These are good too,because if
you put a delay at the end it will ignite your flash/payload and you won't have to worry about any extra steps or complications.If you want any more info. just ask, i think this
would be a much better idea than all this .22 nonsense.-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-11-2001 06:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spin stabilisation is a good idea. Also without the need for fins, the rocket body can be close to the diameter as the I.D of the laucher so that the exhaust gas from the rocket
motor helps propell the rocket out of the launcher like a bullet.
Only problem with delay ignition is that it doesn't give you impact ignition which seems to be what he wants.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-11-2001 09:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even still, if you know what your shooting at you can make the delays accordingly.The whole idea of having makeshift fins and a .22 and other shit on a rocket just seems like
a little much.Besides, i still think that if you get sensitive flash that it'll go by itself.Also, all you'd have to do is a drill a hole in the appropriate place to adapt for stinger's+they
give you that extra power because of the hot gases building up pressure like you said.A nice idea would be to make the launcher a breech loader, for rapid expulsion of
rockets. I can get into details about the breech and/or stinger's if your interested.-Pyro
CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-12-2001 10:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, spinning is a real good idea, go into detail by all means. Is there a website on this kind off rocket or did you think of it?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-12-2001 02:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Williams has a page on spin stabilised rockets:
http://www.ctel.net/~dwilliams/stinger/stinger.html
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-12-2001 04:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan williams is the shit. The only thing is he hasn't updated his website in awhile, i really hope he does. Well, i know he has all the info. you need on stingers so just visit the
page and if you want anymore info goto http://pub50.ezboard.com/f68sboardsfrm4.showMessage?topicID=15.topic.-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-12-2001 08:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah shame he hasn't updated his site for over a year now. I think he's given up on it
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
posted 04-22-2001 03:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antimony sulfide is also a good sensitizer for chlorate,perchlorate mixes.Using a chlorate-based flash would be a good idea in this case,as it is much more shock
sensitive,especially when sulfur or ant. sulfide is added.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 04-23-2001 01:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To make it explode more reliably when it hits the ground: use two rocket motors. The first one will propell the rocket up, and has a length of fuse stuck in the end. When the
motor burns out, it will ignite the fuse which goes into the next rocket motor through the nozzle. By the time the second rocket motor is ignited, the rocket will have flipped
over and it will be pointing downwards. The gases from the second motor will blow off the first motor (attatched fairly weakly to the second), and then the second motor will
shoot your payload down at great speed.
Just a very rough idea, but it might be worth developing.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
posted 04-23-2001 10:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Cool, I dont think this would work good for one reason, once a rocket reaches apex and it starts back down, the rocket will fall irradically, it wont actually point strait down,
so getting it the propel it strait down wouldn't work well. Besides there is a chance it could land on your head
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 04-23-2001 11:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
theres no way to stabilize a rocket in the sky, the rocket would be very inaccurate.
CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-25-2001 03:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to be able to shoot the rockets horazontaly at things, Iv'e tried a couple things that haven't worked but I didn't try my newest thing, which is a .22 casing pointed
downwards at the main charge then I glued four short pieces of skinny nails around the edges of the .22 shell, then put a small nut on the other end of the nails like: *** -nut
||| -nails
-----
| | -.22 casing
||
||
the .22 casing fits into a wooden dowl as an endplug on the end of a rocket with a payload of flash powder, the pay load is just the end of the rocket which wasn't filled by
whistle mix.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > ap and p.permanganate - Archive File
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the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 49
From:
posted 03-01-2001 01:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is potassium permangante/AP- mixture really stronger than pure AP?
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
posted 03-02-2001 02:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes it is, BUT DON'T DO IT You crazy fucker! I had some (not even a five cent piece worth) on my table which set into a rock hard explosive and when I turned my lamp on.....
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 03-08-2001 11:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it a good idea??? Judge by yourself the action of 1 mg of MnO2 or KMnO4 on concentrate peroxyde like H2O2....immediate liberation of all the oxygen (100% H2O2
explodes on contact with KMnO4!!!).
You are the kind of guy who likes to jump whit NH3NI3 in your pockets and nitroglycerine in your hands while smocking a cigar....am I right
------------------
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 03-08-2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't like the sound of mixing a primary explosive with a catalyst.
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 03-08-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How exactly would p. permagnate make ap more powerful?, powerful is a word of wide definitions.
Briscance, Det/velocity,Expansion...
What would be p. permagnate improve, and why?
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 351
From:
posted 03-09-2001 11:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mixing acetone peroxide with an oxidising agent like KMnO4 would improve the oxygen balance of the explosive (which is quite negative for AP)
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 03-11-2001 10:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AN would be better and safer. Not as oxygen rich, but produces a lot of gas upon decomposition.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-04-2001 03:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or even better hydrazine nitrate, hydrazine perchlorate, ammonium perchlorate.....

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Idea? - Archive File
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D e m olition
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 158
From : Austra lia
posted 03-15-2001 04:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I n t h e p r o d u c t i o n o f H M T D h a s a n y o n e ever thought of dissolving some Am monium Nitrate in the solution of Hydrogen
P e r o x i d e b e f o r e a d d i n g t h e H e x a m ine?If it does still crystallize after being left in the fridg e overnight would the product be
m ore stable as a result of the Am monium Nitra t e b e i n g a d d e d o r would it result in an even more u n s t a b l e e x p l o s i v e p e r o x i d e?
T h e p r o c e d u r e c o u l d l o o k s o m ething like this.
1-In a large jar pour 100m ls of 6% Hydrogen P eroxide.
2 - A d d 1 t a b l e s p o o n o f A m m onium Nitrate.
3-After the Am m onium Nitrate i s d i s s o l v e d a d d 3 t a b l e s p o o n s o f H e x a m ine,stir until dissolved and then leave for 30m in.
4 - T h e n a d d 3 0 m ls of 30%HCl,stir and sit in fridge over night.
5-Filter out crystals,wash and dry.Treat with extrem e care.
I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas or advice?
D e m olition
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y D e m olition (edited March 15, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 03-15-2001 11:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another idea would be to mak e dichloro aceton react with AgNO2 to get the dinitroacetone CH2NO2 -CO -C H 2 N O 2 a n d t h e n t o
m ix it with H2O2 and HCl to get a cyclotri-1,2-d initroaceton peroxyde):
(-O - O - C ( C H 2 N O 2 ) 2 ) 3
------------------
" C h e m istry is all what stinks a nd explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 03-16-2001 04:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A nitroperoxide? That will NOT be safe!
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-04-2001 04:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never said it would be safer than AP but the oxygen balance would be m uch better, the VOD also (you can expect som ething
l i k e 6 - 7 k m /s instead of 3-4 for AP....
DNA must be already a powerful explosive more than NM, with a better OB and a higher VOD.
As a m ather of facts, if I'm right tricondensation of 1.2-dinitro aceton can lead to 1',3',5'-trinitro;2,4,6-trinitrom e s i t y l e n e a n d
other polym ers with h igher VO D than T rinitrobenzene actually be tween TNB and hexanitrobenzene....
Yes nitro aldehydes and ceton have some weird reactions...
3CH2NO 2-C O - C H 2 N O 2 - - > 3 H 2 O + C6(NO2)3(CH2NO2)3

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP putty with ping pong balls - Archive
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Mick
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Posts: 232
From :
posted 03-19-2001 12:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the recipe i got for AP with ping pong balls said you nee ded atleast 30 ping balls (i think i got the recipe from Xinventions)
well, i just thought i m ight let you know you can do it with 6 ping balls.
what you do is cut the ping po ng balls up into tiny little pieces, and then pour 30ml to 40mls of acetone into a sm a l l b e a k e r ,
t h e n p u t a s m any pie ces as you into the acetone...and they disolve, add m ore pieces, and poke it with wooden stick to help
break up the ping pong
what you will be left with is a really really thick goo, if you add a little bit m ore acetone to it(so it ju st sits on the top of the
goo) then put plastic wrap, and a few elastic ba nds around the top of the jar, so it seals it off, let this stand for about 6 hours
or m ore
after it has "rested" for a while, take the plastic off, and give it a bit of a stir if ha s gotten to hard, add a little bit more acetone
to it to help it soften up - but don't have excess acetone floating on top of the goo
(the less ace tone you have to use the better - of course, the acetone will eventually evapourate - but it quick if you use as
little a s p o s s i b l e )
t h e n a d d y o u r A P t o t h i s , i h a d a b o u t 5 0 m l s o f p i n g - p o n g g o o , a n d i a d d e d a r o u n d h a l f a f i l m canister of AP (probably m ore)
stir it up, the goo will start get real strange and start to loose its "string-e-ness" once it starts doing this, scoop it out an put it
into a m old or roll it into a ball(i don't advise touching this shit with bare hands...i got som e k i c k a s s h e a d a c h e s a f t e r i m old e d
it in my bare hands)
then put it som ewhere out of the way and let it dry.
depending on where you put it, it will p rolly take a few d ays to completly dry.
you will notice as it drys, the edges will start to peal up from t h e e d g e o f y o u r m o l d , d o i n g worry about this. If you p ress in the
center(thicke st) part of your AP putty, and it is still soft - it needs to dry for longer.
when i first put my blob in a m old, it was about an inch think in the center - by the time it had finished drying, the total blob
had shrunk by atleast half.
i did n't really expect this to work, i mean, i exp ected it to go off, but i didn't expect it to have much of a bang.
well, i was wrong, it went off, and perfo rated m y ear drum , and i was good 20-30 m eters a way from it.
i did have pictures of this, but when it popped m y ear drum, i lost balance and dropped m y video camera a nd fucke d t h e t a p e
up...
so yer, 6 ping pong b alls, 40m ls of acetone, half a canister of AP - you g ot yourelf some AP putty.
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 592
From : ?
posted 03-19-2001 06:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you light a p i n g p o n g b a l l y o u s e e a v i v i d o r a n g e f l a m e a n d a l o t o f s m o k e , , I o n e s d i s o l v e d s o m e pingpong balls with
acetone and when they where totally dry i try`d to light som e but it didn`t burnd at all.
Does anyone know why?
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com

Microtek
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 205
From :
posted 03-19-2001 10:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say you used plastic PPBs. the NC balls shouldn't give off sm oke in any appreciable quantities. Most platics will dissolve in
a c e t o n e , a n d m any will also burn, so you can easily mistake them f r o m t h e o n e s m a d e o f N C .
Actually you can use any number of ping-pong balls, even fractional; you just need to maintain the proper ratios of AP to NC
( 1:1 by weight is about right ).
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 03-19-2001 03:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to keep it m ore like 2:1 AP to NC as ping pong balls aren't free and you're n ot "cutting" the AP so m uch.
I ran out of acetone once and tried using 20% nitrom e t h a n e ( m o d e l f u e l ) . I t i s a m o r e p o werful solvent and the NC went too
gooey to handle easily and the stuff never really dries as the castor oil is left beh ind and can stop the AP d etonating.
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 04-03-2001 03:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is th ere any real 'test' for NC in ping pong balls ? should i just try a few d ifferent ones and hope that it would work?
W ait a minute ... this m e a n s y o u c a n d e t o n a t e p i n g p o n g b a l l s ?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 04-03-2001 01:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt the NC from ping pong balls detonates since it isn't very nitrated, it is mo s t p r o b a b l y c o n s u m e d i n t h e e x p l o s i o n
though.

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FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 03-20-2001 04:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My question is: can hydriodic acid be u s e d t o p r o d u c e A c e t o n e P e r o x i d e i n s t e a d o f HCl or H2SO 4? O r could HCl be p repared in
a s o mewhat similar way to HI, that does not use H2SO 4? I do not have H2SO4 right now/yet that is my big prob. My t.n.p. is
on hold cause i dont have any. I got 5 lbs. of KClO 4 though. do you think i could make a TACP out of that (tetram ine coppe r
perchlorate) in a sim ilar fashion to TACC?
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-04-2001 05:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it has to work for TACP!
And no HI won't work for C TAP since HI is reducer and with H2O 2 you will get I2 and H2O.
2HI + H2O 2 -->I2 + 2H2O

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sim ply RED
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Posts: 240
From : HELL
posted 03-31-2001 03:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've spotted that sm ell after the detonation of acetone peroxide. But I don't know what causes it.
C a n s o m e o n e t e l l m e the reaction of the AP de tonation?
10x
------------------
HAPPY BURNDAY, SWEETHARD!
FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 03-31-2001 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably water and CO 2.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 04-01-2001 07:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's m ostly CO2 and water as Fadetoblack said, but you a l s o g e t C O , o x i d e s o f n i t r o g e n a n d o t h e r n a s t y g a s e s i n s m all
a m ounts.
Microtek
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 205
From :
posted 04-02-2001 01:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hy do you think the re would be nitrous oxides? there is no nitrogen in AP.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 04-02-2001 03:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Haha, oh yeah. I was trying to remem ber the som e o f t h e d e c o m p o s i t i o n p r o d u c t s o f c o m m ercial explosive s, figuring that AP
would have at least som e s i m i l a r o n e s .
Oops
sim ply RED

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 240
From : HELL
posted 04-02-2001 04:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There should be some hydrocarbons because the oxigen in the AP is not enough even to oxidise the hydro gen to H2O...
Donutty
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 228
From : U K
posted 04-02-2001 05:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y e a h A P d o e s h a v e a d i s t i n c t i v e s m ell. Som etimes quite nasty in a large cloud.
"I lo ve the sm ell of triacetoneperoxide in the m orning"
Jhonbus
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 351
From :
posted 04-02-2001 05:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I b e l e i v e C O 2 a n d e t h a n e a r e p r o d u c e d b y t h e a c t u a l d e c o m p o s i t i o n o f A P . . H o w e v e r t h e e t h a n e i s s u b s e q u e n t l y o x idised to
C O 2 and H2O.
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 04-03-2001 03:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
can anyone produce a structural diagram of the m o l e c u l e , a n d a b a l a n c e d e q u a t i o n o f t h e r e a c t i o n ?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-03-2001 04:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
go to www.roguesci.org/m e g a l o m a n i a a n d s e a r c h f o r A P , t h a t g i v e s a m o d e l o f t h e m o l e c u le, the em perical form ula and how to
m ake it. but no reaction equation.
Jhonbus
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 351
From :
posted 04-03-2001 04:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The equation fot TCAP would be:
C 9 H 1 8 O 6 ----> 3 CO2 + 3 C2H6
Then
3 C2H6 + 6 O2 ----> 3 CO 2 + 6 H2O
I think that's right; all those sub tags get confusing!

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John456
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From :
posted 04-04-2001 08:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I w a s m a k i n g H M T D t o d a y , a n d all was going according to planned until i left it to set. I made it the same as all the other
tim es (92g 3 0% peroxide, 28g hexamine, 42g citric acid), usually that fo rm ula yields very well. It looks normal after i mixed
all the acid in (clear solution with m any bubbles). I put it in the garage to set, it was about 60 degrees F in there. In about 4
hours when i came back to check the progress, there was a thin layer of am ber gunk at the bottom of the beaker, and it
look e d l i k e i t h a d g o n e o v e r t h e s i d e s a n d t h e s a m e g u n k w a s a l l a r o u n d t h e b e a k e r . w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-04-2001 09:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all i can think of is there was a foriegn bit of crap in there that reacted with one of your chem icals. cause if you got it this tim e
and not all the other tim es that is probly what it is. i know you m ight have washed out your reaction vessel before hand but
from the time you washed it o ut till the tim e yo u put in all the shit som ething might have gotten in there. or you just didn't
wash it out well enough. either way i am saying there was shit in there to start with that shouldn't h a v e b e e n t h e r e a nd that
reacted with it. (i am a s s u m ing you washed your vessel out befo re you started)
------------------
...
John456
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 105
From :
posted 04-04-2001 09:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W ashed it thoroughly with boiling water. Nothin' in there. I did it outside so som ething might have fallen in or something, i cant
im agine it would affect it this m u c h t h o u g h . I t l o o k e d l i k e s o m e t h i n g e l s e a l t o g e t h e r
YTS
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 61
From :
posted 04-06-2001 06:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hat do you m ean you washed it with boiling water . if you mean after you procured it and washed it with boiling water its
fucked
John456
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 105
From :
posted 04-06-2001 11:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, i washed the beaker with boiling water to clean it. before i put any chem icals in.
Mr-Eckted June 7th, 2003, 07:36 PM

This just hap p e n e d t o m e. I u s e d t h e s a m e Synth as you, and after a while, im left with a moist yellow gunk. Alm ost "jello". I
a m sure that everything was clean. I'm going to let it dry out and then do some testing on it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP and BLACK POWDER - Archive File
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Nick
New Member
Posts: 1
From: Washington
posted 04-10-2001 10:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So Many times have I made AP into putty with nitocellulose, but I wonder IF adding black powder to the mix of... smokeless powder, AP and Acetone will make a bigger bang.
Or how about adding BP to the mixture and leaving out the AP,..Making a putty of hardend nitrocellulose and BP. Would the BP being incased in the nitorsellulose be enough
confinment to set it off, and inturn, would the BP decompose fast enough to set the nitocellulose into a high order explosion?. or would nothing happen but a very quick puff of
semi smokeless gas appear??
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-11-2001 12:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No way BP is going to detonate Smokeless powder.
------------------
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Igenx
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: No Fucking Way
posted 04-11-2001 12:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nick:
Or how about adding BP to the mixture and leaving out the AP,..Making a putty of hardend nitrocellulose and BP. Would the BP being incased in the nitorsellulose be enough
confinment to set it off, and inturn, would the BP decompose fast enough to set the nitocellulose into a high order explosion?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You aren't going to be able to detonate smoleless powder using black powder. In order to get a high order, "real" explosion out of smokeless powder without these two things:
1. double base powder that contains nitroglycerine (I believe that single base powder will work, but is a comparitive bitch to detonate, correct me if I'm wrong.)
2. a detonator. black powder is not a detonator, so your combination will not work.
If you're just trying to get a low order detonation why the hell are you adding black powder? It's just cutting the percent of smokeless powder (which burns better under
confinement), therefore slowing it down.
Also, if you're trying for a high order detonation then why the did you post this in the low order section?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-11-2001 03:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To detonate NC with BP, you would need:
1) A urge quantity to selfconfine the NC!(thus not safe and not very discrete).
2) not an exces of BP otherwise the NC would lose its ability of transition from deflagration to detonation (20%-40% BP with NC)
3) Confinement in a solid container (no more fun since you can't look at it and because it can kill you )
4) A powerfull HE detonator (so why to play with this shity mix if you have acces or can make HE )
5) A fine dispersion of a detonationg explosive like AP to boost up the thing (but also give a much dangerous mix to handle, much sensitive to friction, impact, heat, ...
6) All the five above in different combinations
7) Me think it would be better to make a mix of dry NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 with NC and AP (maybe not in the mix but as a detonator!) to get a perfect OB...
iron raven June 7th, 2003, 09:20 AM

hello,
that mix containg someless powder and bp, dosen't explode but makes excellent stars. 4 parts smokless powder to 1 part black powder, mixed in acetone. These stars need no
priming.
well this dosn't have anything to do with explosives but is an intrseting star.
master of the atom
iron raven

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frostfire
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Posts: 266
From :
posted 04-16-2001 06:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i got bored m a k i n g A P a n d s e e i n g m y supplies left is in small quantitity I just mixed them all with no ratio:
30 % H2O2 laboratory grade
a c e t o n e t h e o n e f o u n d in hardware shop
and 4 N HCL hmm m, 4 M HCL
all o f them was about half glass full
anyway, I was suprised the ba tch is incredibly tiny, could it be caused by excessive acetone that most of the AP got dissloved?
I also suspect that the HCL might be to diluted that the water co ntain disturb/ im balance the reaction
W ell, any opinion is welcome
FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 04-16-2001 07:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I once tried to m ake AP with Acetone, 3% H2O2, and a blob of this stuff i found in my grandm a's garage called naval jelly. It
said 'contains phosphoric acid,' so i thought 'what the hell' and was only able to scrape a little blob out with a m etal stick. It
was really cold out, and I dont know if the stuff was even any go od. The next morning, there was 2-3 extrem e l y s m a l l ( s i z e o f
a .) little white flakes floating on it, i doubt they were even AP. That's what you call an incrediby sm all yield. I might also
m ention that this was in the m iddle of winter, so it was quite cold.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-18-2001 04:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a cristallisation point of view:
*little cristals form s when a fast precipitation occurs not allowing the equilibrium b etween cristals to h a p p e n .
*You should of course know that bigger cristals are favorised upon slow cristallisation or when a physical environm ent/or
property of the chem ical allows it!
Let m e explain this:
Slow cristallisation and thus big cristals comes from a stable m other liquor beeing cooled slowly; th e n s o m e cristaline germs
(dust, irregularity in the glass, anything solid and pseudocristaline) begins to cover with cristals because of sursaturation of the
m other liquor; cristals are growing on those cristals crea ting som e little, m e d i u m a n d b i g m onocristals. O n the surfa c e o f t h o s e
cristals there is an eq uilibrium between the mother liquor and the solid always m o v i n g a n d e x c h a n g i n g m atter; then because
little particles have a bigger specific su rface, they tend to disapp ear while the bigger cristals are ge tting bigger and bigger. This
can also occur with a volatile solid (sublimating) but then it is airborne and an equilibrium exist between the surface and the air
surrounding the cristals when saturated (I have s o m e wet AP in a closed plastic box at 25C and it happens all the tim e little
cristals becom e bigger and bigger).
Now you can understand that little cristals occurs when:

*cooling is fast and g oes fast under th e sursaturated concentration (this goes down when T decrease) equilibrium is also
slowed down!!!
*im pure product containing a lot of dusts or critaline germs is used.
*solvent m ix has a low solubilisation p ower of the precipitate (equilibrium is defavorised).
I HO PE IT HELPED
------------------
frostfire
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 266
From :
posted 04-18-2001 02:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so the basically equilibrium favor and supersaturated solution explain the flaw, eh?
I got the equilibrium thing, but I don't think the solution is supe rsaturated (considering th e aceton e e x c e s s a n d d i l u t e d H C L )
Right now i'm putting filter paper to ab sorb then evaporate the liquid day by day, I hope when the acetone/water evaporate, all
left is the crystall on the filter paper and I might m a k e s o m e flash paper....
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 04-19-2001 02:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
frostfire, how m uchg of each chem ical did you put in? how big was the glass? cause one could assu m e t h a t y o u o n l y u s e d a
little bit of H2O2 and alot of the acetone. thus having the H2O2 being the limiting factor. can you provide any m ore info?
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
frostfire
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 266
From :
posted 04-19-2001 11:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well like I said before , I just d u m p a l l r e m a i n i n g o f m y AP ingredients to a glass.
It's a comm on 2 oz ( I never use oz???) glass that's usually served in a fast food restaurant.And the glass is only half full
So it's not that much though
That's why I speculate that som ehow the acetone is in excess and hence, turn H2 O2 as th e lim iting reagent or redissolve the
crystal once it's m a d e . I ' m in day 4 of evaporating the liquid little by little with afilter pape r, In the end I'll exam ine lit the
paper 'n we'll see how m any AP is actually produced ( hope it works)
Dracul
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 73
From : Melbourne, Australia
posted 04-22-2001 11:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think the acetone is in excess and that is has dissolved all the AP then when you are about to filter it add som e water
before you filter. If you dissolve some dry AP in acetone then add water all the AP will instantly pre cipitate out of the solution.
Try it with som e that you already have (if you have som e that is) to see what I m e a n .
------------------
"By the powe r of Grayskull, I HAVE THE POW ER!" He-ma n
Check this out www.stileproject.com
frostfire
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 266
From :
posted 04-23-2001 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
now that's interesting.
Now trying....
ps: do you get this by from learning by doing or can you provide further details..?
Dracul
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 73
From : Melbourne, Australia
posted 04-24-2001 10:21 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A bit of everything, I used to study chemistry. There were a few areas where things like that cam e in. It works with lots of other
solutions too .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP containers - wtf? - Archive File
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Mick
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Posts: 232
From:
posted 04-28-2001 10:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i mixxed up 2 jars of AP a couple of days ago, 1 of the jars is about 2 inches in diameter, the other is about 5 inches
i used the exact same ratio in each of the jars and i made them at the same time
somthing that i have noticed is the amount of AP in the 5" jar is way less then the amount in the 2" jar
now i haven't confirmed the yeild difference as of yet

but does anyone know what the go is here?
does the size of the jar relate to the size of the yeild?
i'm probably gunna pick up a small set of electric scales tomorrow cause i'm sick of using "eye" measurments (ie. "yeah...that looks about right" ) so i'll prolly post my reasult
in the following days
i was just wondering if anyone else had noticed this?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-28-2001 12:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The same thing has happened to me when i used to use 3% h202.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-28-2001 06:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not calling anyone dumb but you do realise that the cross-sectional area of the 5" jar is a lot more than the 2"? So the layer of AP would be spread out more and a lot thinner?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-28-2001 07:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
its pretty easy to see your yeild when you have it in a piece of coffee paper.
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Explosives Archive
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 04-29-2001 10:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe some acetone is evapourating, so more would evapourate from the 5" jar, causing a smaller yield?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-29-2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't think that;s what it'd be but you'd be surprised what you can over-look.
John456
Frequent Poster
Posts: 105
From:
posted 04-29-2001 04:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has happened to me. The wider the diameter of the jar, the more the solution is exposed to air. Acetone evaporates pretty fast, so if more of it is exposed to air more
evaporates. Thats probably what happened.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > stirring question - Archive File
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James
New Member
Posts: 2
From:
posted 04-29-2001 05:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How would constant stirring (ie a magnetic stirrer) affect the synthesis of explosive peroxides?
------------------
Forrestalls Syndrome -- when they are out to get you and you know it.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 04-29-2001 05:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might set them off with the shock of being crushed against the side of the jar
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 04-30-2001 03:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The stirring is involved to prevent forming of big chrystals.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 04-30-2001 03:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just stirr occasionally. Simple
Bryan May 27th, 2003, 10:39 PM

In my experiance, With some things stirring longer increases yeild, such as with HMTD.
Bryan

You may be aware that stirring only mix chemicals and increase chances that 2 mol. encounter each other and react. There more you stir the faster it will react. But stirring only
sometimes is enough (except in special reactions).
SATANIC May 28th, 2003, 06:57 AM

Arthis, not quite sure if I follow, are you saying that the more you stir, the more likely reactants are likely to come into contact with each other ?
(Hence faster reaction times)
Sorry, just don't understand the wording. That's what I assume, seeing as it's all I know that's relevant.
Desmikes May 28th, 2003, 10:59 PM

Just like hitting a piece of lead with a hammer causes it to heat up, the water or whatever you're stirring will heat up, the energy is always conserved, the heat might cause
reaction to take place more rapidly.

Huho ! I'm not pretending to replace a heater, Desmike !
Yes SATANIC, that's the point. It's like powder (e.g. KNO3/sugar): the better mixed (e.g. melted together), the faster the reaction.
jfk June 9th, 2003, 11:22 PM

its not got anything (almost) to do with a heater. were not heating the acetone or hexamine when we peroxide' it.
its the fact that on a molecular level - if the reactants are moving around constantly there is a higher chance of an acetone molecule and a hydrogen peroxide molecule(which
is a nucleophille) meeting up and underoging a reaction. (in an acidic environment of course)

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phyrelord
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Posts: 135
From:
posted 04-05-2001 10:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was planning on trying to make a sort of FAE and had planned on starting simple. First of all i found that gas is supposed to be mixed with air so that it makes up 6% of the
whole (i think that's what it was correct me if i'm wrong.) My next challenge was to vaporize the gas and i thought by pressurizing it it would become more thoroughly mixed
with the air. And of course then there is the ignition which will be a breeze. This will act like the fuel air mixture in car engines, but the container won't hold the pressure, thus
sending shrapnel and other shit in all directions as well as leaving one hell of a shockwave. Any ideas or comments?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-06-2001 02:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like combustable gas mixture in a bottle charge thingy. If I understand correctly you want to have like a spudgun, but the gas will explode the conatiner rather propell a
spud. This wouldn't be a FAE as an FAE disperses a fuel into the atmosphere by means of a bursting charge and ignites it.
Gas bottles temd to be very low powered because if the bottle is 1000ml, only 60ml of that is combustable gas and such a small amount doesn't contain much energy at all.
phyrelord
Frequent Poster
Posts: 135
From:
posted 04-06-2001 08:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that is because most of the time the fuel is not mixed with the air in the correct proportions. When this is achieved the effect is pretty powerful, but getting that perfect ratio is
what i'm having a problem with. I understand that FAE's disperse the fuel but in a way this is kind of an FAE in a controlled environment. Here's what i'm thinking- 6ml of
gasoline to 47ml or cc of Oxygen and pressurized to like 2 psi so the amount of air doubles but not the gas so it becomes 6ml of gas to 94ml or cc of oxygen. Does that sound
right
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
posted 04-07-2001 02:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mixing any kind of petrochemical with oxygen is dangerous and unpredictable. There's a good reason oxygen regulators carry the caution "Use No Oil". Failure to follow this
advice has resulted in some pretty catastrophic accidents.
"I told you some of those welders were using oil on their regulators."
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-07-2001 07:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I belive that millitary FAEs use nitrated fuels that are high explosives in themselves and detonate in the dispersed cloud.
Using oxygen is another matter! Your average coke bottle can hold pressures exceeding 150psi. Filling a 1L bottle with 1L of propane and then adding 15L of oxygen should
produce a decent blast. Those ratios are probably far from ideal but it's just and example. Filling could be done simply by a schrader valve fitted into the cap of the bottle.

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Morrigan
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Posts: 81
posted 04-14-2001 03:02 PM
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A mixture, by volume , consisting of 1 part low speed fla sh powder, 1 part black powder, slightly less then 1 part spa rkler
composition, 1 part acetone peroxide, and several crushed lighter flints, was prep a r e d m o i s t a n d d ried. It burned
sim ultaneously with a s p e e d e q u a l t o f l a s h p o w d e r a n d m uch slower then sm all am ounts pure AP, it sparked a lot. After drying,
the m ixture was loaded into a CO2 cartridge. An electric igniter was inserted and the cartridge was sealed using epoxy putty.
This was placed in a half-liter soft plastic container, which was filled with gasoline on the site. Upon ignition the gasoline failed
to ignite, however a huge clou d of finely nebula gasoline was formed. The same thing that one would expect with pure AP?!
Black powder alone burns too slow to be used in a FAE, it will only produce a fireball. W hat is critical? Is it the speed upon
detonation? And how could the cloud gasoline be ignited? Anybody any ideas?
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-14-2001 03:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A se condary slow-burning charge could be used to ignite the fuel. This co u l d b e f u s e d t o t h e m a i n c h a r g e .
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probab ly be the easiest to eat even if you don't
Pyro
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 104
From : Danbury,CT,U .S.A
posted 04-14-2001 03:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W ell first off, what's a FAE and if the following aren't critical in a FAE, i would suggest opting. for no flints,no BP, and no
sparklers, and just stick with the flash and AP.-Pyro
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 766
posted 04-14-2001 05:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
check the Anarchist Arsenel and the Advanced Anarchist Arsenel both By david harbour and availiable for download. Kurt
S a x o n ' s v i d e o i s a f i r e b o m b m ore thatn an FAE.
------------------
A wise man once said :
"...T here Will Be No
Stand O ff At High Noon
... Shoot'em I n T h e B a c k
And, Shoot'em I n T h e D a r k "
sim ply RED

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 240
From : HELL
posted 04-14-2001 05:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hat is the site where these anarchy'n a r s e n a l s c a n b e d o w n l o a d e d f r o m ?
10x
------------------
...SOMEO NE RESOR RECTED...
SHO O T H I M T W ICE!
Bandit
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 82
From : U .K.
posted 04-14-2001 05:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e s e b o o k s w e r e p o s t e d b y M a c h i a v e l l i a g e s a g o w h e n h e u s e d a d i f f e r e n t n a m e. I cant rem ember the url. It was m e n t i o n e d
n o t s o l o n g a g o . I t h i n k V e h e m et knows it?
Bandit
Metal
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 137
From : I'm everywhere.
posted 04-14-2001 07:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They're on this site:
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/O a s i s / 7 9 8 3 /
------------------
Knowledge Is O ur Greatest De f e n s e A g a i n s t T h e i r I g n o r a n c e
phyrelord
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 135
From :
posted 04-14-2001 09:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
use thermite in with your explosive it will still burn a long time after the explosion h a p p e n s . J u s t a t h o u g h t t h o u g h .
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 766
posted 04-15-2001 12:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that will work read the books by David Harbour before you try anything.
Kid Orgo June 18th, 2003, 04:23 AM

Just to test my knowledge of the basic concepts of a FAE.
Isn't that a pretty good result? A fine mist of gas, hopefully within that fuel saturation range would ideally be then DETONATED,
not ignited, by a secondary ch arge. The shockwave from the second charge would t h e n c a u s e a l l o f t h e g a s t o d e t o n a t e a t t h e
s a m e tim e in air, causing a true FAE.

P l e a s e c a n s o m e o n e s t r e a m m e t h e b o o k s ? I c a n n o t o p e n t h e m , I got e rror message every time.
Thanks.
Ropik May 2nd, 2004, 12:54 PM

Just for sure: My Stream load account is change d to Dan G u n . I f s o m e b o d y w a n t s t o s e n d m e t h i s b o o k s , s e n d t h e m t o t h i s n ew
acco unt
EDIT: Now I tried it once again and even the site was not functional.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > A simple question regarding perchlorates. - Archive File
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View Full Version : A simple question regarding perchlorates. - Archive File
megalomania June 1st, 2003, 12:27 AM

FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
posted 04-20-2001 11:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that chlorates can detonate (like NaClO3 + vaseline). But can perchlorates?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 04-21-2001 12:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was watching a show on TV(fox) and it was of a NH4ClO4 factory. that storage tanks detonated(There was a shock wave).
------------------
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 290
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
posted 04-21-2001 04:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you can detonate perchlorates. All they are are chlorates with an extra oxygen attached.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 04-21-2001 12:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's like saying "of course you can drink pure hydrogen peroxide, it's just water with oxygen added". (I know perchlorates are ionic and H2O2 is covalent etc.etc. but you get
my point) Well, not that stupid, but "just adding oxygen" can greatly affect the properties of chemicals.
Although you were right, most perchlorates can detonate from a strong enough shock.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
posted 04-21-2001 02:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Say I were to mix some with a sensitizer, vaseline or maybe 2:1 motor oil to gasoline (i think i saw that in IMFAN), what strength of cap would i need to detonate it? KIPE says
a #3 will detonate chlorate based but what about perchlorate?
... and now that i think about it i saw that NH4CLO4 plant explode. Somewhere in Nevada right? You could see that shockwave..badass.. they said it leveled all the nearby
buildings.
[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited April 21, 2001).]
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
posted 04-25-2001 01:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depending on what type of chlorate it is. Alkali and Alkali earth chlorates can not be detonated. Potassium and Sodium chlorate for example can not detonate by themselves
(need the right kind of fuel or impurities to become explosive or detonable).
Ammonium perchlorate can detonate for sure. So can amine perchlorates like hydrazine, methylamine perchlorates,etc. Potassium and Sodium perchlorates can not be
detonated alone.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Storing the AP
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View Full Version : Storing the AP
Nevermore June 1st, 2003, 02:21 PM

I wish to know the most effective and safe way of storing the AP, since under water it needs too much time to get dry i wish to
use a more easy volatile thing...I thought about acetone, or tricoloroethilene, but i don't know if they wil dissolve the Ap.
Desmikes June 1st, 2003, 03:30 PM

People always say that you have to use your AP within few days of manufacture because of #1 it decomposes and #2 it
recrystalizes into larger crystals making it more dagerous to handle. Well, I've had AP sitting for up to two months in the open
air (I stay away from containers and lids) and the performance didn't seem to change at all. (I don't know about
decomposition). Not washing your AP is a LOT more dangereous than storing it for a few weeks.
For whatever it's worth, AP will dissolve in gasoline and i'm pretty sure in Acetone too.
Al Nobel June 1st, 2003, 05:27 PM

Store it under water.If you want to use it wash it with alcohol then it will dry pretty fast.
Bryan June 1st, 2003, 05:41 PM

maybe ethanol? I store AP underwater, and after filtering I wash with ethanol and it dries faster.
Also I have stored in sealy bags for long periods with no problems.
Bryan
Nevermore June 1st, 2003, 06:46 PM

storing under water is for sure a good idea but takes ages to get dry, even if ethanol will speed up the process, i was thinking
if Ap doesn't dissolve in nonpolar solvents then it could be easy to store under hexane or any other low boiling point liquid,
also very easy to evaporate, even trichloroethilen could be good...
just to know your opinion, i found plenty of info on Ap but nothing regarding the properties and if dissolves in polar or non
polar solvents...
Anthony June 2nd, 2003, 02:21 PM

The lack of information would probably be because AP find no/incredibly little use outside of amatuer experimenters.
If you've got spare hexane and trichloroethilene etc to evaporate, you likely have an account with a chem supplier, so why
mess with something like AP when better primaries could be made?
Nevermore June 2nd, 2003, 02:40 PM

Unfortunately i do not have an account at a chem, this compound (hexane-dichloropropane) is sold as stain removal at a
supermarket here, i just felt curious about it since usually they sell trichloroetane instead of those exotic things...
I can get plenty of hexane and dicloropropan e since the price is very low, a round 1,3 for b ottle (500ml).
The biggest problem is that here still couldn't find any way of getting methenamine neither nitric acid...that's why i am stuck
with Ap...but there is plenty of nitromethane for cheap prices..
i wonder if in europe there is anyone that uses mehenamine for fire tablets or other things..i found only petrol derivate
tablets...
phone February 21st, 2004, 07:08 AM

i wonder if in europe there is anyone that uses mehenamine for fire tablets or other things..i found only petrol derivate
tablets...
Yeah. Theyre german, I dont have the pack right here, but its almost pure methanamine (or how you now spell that lame
word). You just solve it in aceton and you get it pure (or was it water) I havent really memorized it since I am an AP lamer
(but I do own a pack with methanamine), HMTD is nutting for me :P, but hey, first time I did AP I did 80 grams, second 120
grams, third time (yesterday, drying today) something about a kilo or more... :P I GONNA BLOW MY FRICKING ARMS OFF! And
yeah, I dont treat AP with respect, but well, I got plenty of cold, snow and ice outside so my AP is usually quite resistant
against pressure e.tc. Well, right now my brain feels like weird, I gonna have to put up a few lamps e.tc. (it dried overnight,
switched the newsspaper it was on) and I think I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of
the weekend, thats why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! :P
Well.
Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of klos AN
coming up.
Dave Angel February 21st, 2004, 09:59 AM

With making over a kilo of AP and not treating it with respect I think you're likely to blow more than your arms off! I hope you
don't have any neighbours to your lab.
You always make "1 big fucking bomb" of your explosives? Sounds a bit kewl to me...
Bert February 21st, 2004, 01:11 PM
I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of the weekend, thats why I am sitting here with
over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! :P Well.
coming up.
Jesus Christ, learn to speak and write proper English. That is if you live long enough, you're either a dangerous fool who's
going to be dead soon or a fucking liar, judging from you post.
Anthony February 21st, 2004, 03:24 PM

Phone, you are stupid, ignorant and you're going to hurt yourself. Not in a "shit, that hurt" way, in a big way.
You need to grow up. You need to read, and you need to learn.
One more shit post from you and consider yourself banned.
NightStalker February 22nd, 2004, 12:51 AM

I vote for dangerous lying fool. :p
Some posts I see I just have to wonder if it's just someone acting the fool and just posting a bunch of crap in an attempt to
bait us into flaming them.
In other words, a "Troll".
Wild Catmage February 23rd, 2004, 07:33 AM

A kilo of AP? That's beyond stupidity.
Does anyone divide their primaries into small isolated batches for safer storage? I tend to store HMTD (washed with a
bicarbonate and dampened with water) in 5 gram batches in plastic aspirin containers. The only problem I have is how to store
the containers without spreading them over a large area like they are at the moment.
If your asking for methenamine (which is Hexamine, right?), its easily available in my part of the UK from Army Surplus stores
and outdoor stores like Millets. By fire tablets, I presume you're referring to solid fuel stoves.
Check out http://www.surplusandadventure.com/ishop/800/shopscr1869.html
The site says you can order from anywhere in the world.
Bert February 23rd, 2004, 02:53 PM

(it dried overnight, switched the newsspaper it was on) and I think I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well,
my moms out of the weekend, thats why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I
spam... but.. hey! :P Well.
coming up.
I was afraid you would end like this. (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1570) I'm glad you didn't kill
anyone but yourself, at least.
al93535 May 5th, 2004, 08:04 AM

Wow, looks like you guys were correct at guessing what might happen to this young guy, Phone. It sure is pretty sad though, I
feel for his mother. Just imagining later that night after writing his post, he died, is crazy. Damn did you guys see the piles of
AP he had?
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0402/23/NYHETER-23s11pulver_368.jpg
He sure wasn't a liar. I want to know how it went off when he went back to it after 5 minutes went by and nothing happened. I
find myself imagining what it was like being inches away from 800 grams of AP when it went off. Damn.
aikon May 5th, 2004, 09:03 AM

That's a sad story. I remember while reading this thread I tought: "This guy is a liar. 800g of Ap. Nobady is such a fool to
produce 800g of AP"
Unfortunately he wasn't a liar. Anyway, lot's of forum members warned him.
The question is how the police reacts to that incident. You can still recall the "Petri Gerdt" case and all the problems some
members of science boards had. What do you think are the consequences (if there are any) for science boards on the net?
Boomer May 6th, 2004, 12:50 PM

I did already mention this in the other threat about storing AP, but since several people complained that storing under water
means long drying, here is the (probably) safest method:
Never dry a batch at all! Don't even press the filters out, but leave it dripping wet during manufacture, and store it as a slurry
with water later.
Over the last years I made some 100-200g batches this way and felt absolutely safe. It is impossible to set it off when there
is much more water then AP (I use 5:1). I tested with a hammer, with a grinder, with a blowtorch and by putting a cigarette out
in the stuff - nothing!
So much we know - but now comes the trick: Take out ONE spoon full (I never dry more then 2g), wrap in filter and TP and
press out between heavy wood (not with the hands!). Repeat with new paper in a vice (wearing protection). It is now so dry it
flashes with a 'whooomp'.
It dries completely now in 2-3 hours at room temp, or in 15 minutes on the oven plates at 30-40C. Do not laugh, I sub-divide
it further between the four oven plates, and 500-milligram piles, each spread out over a letter paper, can hardly make DDT.
Even if they did, I don't care with these amounts and ear plugs! It is used after cooling of course.
If someone is interested, I can post test results of AP sensitivity at different water content, for friction, impact and flame.
Results are interesting I promise!
Dave Angel May 8th, 2004, 05:26 PM

Ah, I just noticed I was given a 'reputation' comment (didn't realise we had this function with the new software), most likely by
this guy, as it referred to my previous post in this thread.
Anyway, I got a little red dot of reputation, (I guess that means bad), with the comment 'stupid wanker', which really hurt
:rolleyes:
Well, at least I'm not a stupid dead wanker :D
matjaz May 9th, 2004, 09:26 AM

Boomer,
...I can post test results of AP sensitivity at different water content, for friction, impact and flame....
sure, do so, please!
Pure Phone, he was so young. :( At least he didn't feel a thing: "Den kraftiga explosionen gjorde en krater p tre meter i
diameter i snn."
nbk2000 May 10th, 2004, 01:26 PM

A bit belated, but Phone has been "Banned from Life". ;) :D :p
Child-of-Bodom May 11th, 2004, 03:25 PM

Why make AP, I hate peroxides...MHN is easy made, low risk of a runaway, stable, and to detonate with EBW of good flash.
Since there have been too much accidents reported on AP - I haven't ever made it and I'm not going to make it.
safety first - better proces what's takes longer that a life with 10 - x fingers...
Boomer June 1st, 2004, 07:26 AM

Like I promised, here is the AP sensitivity test report. I thought it was too small to link it:
AP sensitivity tests:
Drop test: 300g hammer head, falling free on steel anvil. Material not covered.
Friction test: Pestle on mortar, mortar standing on a scale to measure force.
Given are the number of detonations and the number of tests.
Flame test: cigarette and lighter.
Test 1: Completely dry AP (2 weeks at 25C)
1A: 'Normal' crystal size, dried directly from the filter
6cm 5 out of 5
5cm 5 out of 5
4cm 4 out of 5
3cm 3 out of 5
2cm 2 out of 5
1cm 0 out of 5
50N 10 out of 10
40N 10 out of 10
30N 10 out of 10
20N 9 out of 10
10N 4 out of 10
7N 2 out of 10
5N 0 out of 10
1B: Ground to flour-like consistency, clinging to all tools from static
6cm 5 out of 5
5cm 5 out of 5
4cm 5 out of 5
3cm 4 out of 5
2cm 2 out of 5
1cm 0 out of 5
Friction was not tested, the crystals will be crushed anyway.
Both crystal sizes flashed from cigarette and flame with a distinct whoomp. Smallest sample do ever make DDT unconfined
was 200mg (pea sized)!
Test 2: Nearly dry AP, normal crystal size (pressed between filters in a vice)
6cm 5 out of 5
5cm 4 out of 5
4cm 3 out of 5 (funny: 1 time no bang, only fireball!)
3cm 2 out of 5
2cm 1 out of 5
1cm 0 out of 5
50N 10 out of 10 (sometimes crackling)

20N 5 out of 10 (2 x crackling)
10N 3 out of 10 (2 x crackling)
7N 0 out of 10
Flashed from cigarette and flame with a distinct whoomp. It was hard to distinguish it from the dry sample.
Test 3: Slightly moist AP, normal crystal size (hand-pressed between filters)
20cm 4 out of 5
15cm 2 out of 5
10cm 1 out of 5
7cm 0 out of 5
5cm 0 out of 5
3cm 0 out of 5
2cm 0 out of 5
50N 10 out of 10 (crackling)

7N 0 out of 10
Burned from both heat sources with a fast flash, but without the whoomp-sound. Still faster than good (commercial) black
powder.
Test 4: Wet AP, normal crystal size (dripping wet!)
75cm 0 out of 5
50cm 0 out of 5
40cm 0 out of 5
30cm 0 out of 5
20cm 0 out of 5
10cm 0 out of 5

10N 0 out of 10
Did not react to flame until it started to dry out, a cigarette could be put out in it safely.
We learn several things from these tests:
1. The friction sensitivity is hardly reduced by moisture, but the moist AP only crackles because it does not make DDT.
2. Crystal size has a much lower influence than we thought. This might be because the crystals were not precipitated in the
smaller form, but ground from the bigger crystals of the same batch.
3. Dripping wet AP is safe towards impact, and also towards fire. Towards friction it is only safe if you assume it cannot make
DDT if confined (which is probable but not sure).
4. Moist AP is not much safer than dry AP. Even the hand pressed stuff (still crumbly) was more sensitive than NG and MHN,
and the heavily pressed sample (more powder-like) was nearly as bad as the dry one.
metafractal June 2nd, 2004, 02:52 AM

Good work Boomer.
Could you please post your method of synthesis in detail? This is because in my experience sensitivity in both damp and dry
states can vary enourmously from batch to batch depending on factors like concentration of hydrogen peroxide used,
thoroughness (or absence of) neutralization, purity & ratios of reagents, experimental conditions (temperature), reaction time
and even drying conditions!
darkdontay June 2nd, 2004, 10:30 AM

I'm not syaing this is the best method for storing. I store mine in left over blood test strip containers, they are slightly smaller
the 35mm film contaniers. I have had some stored before, that I found about two years after shoving it in the back of my
Misc#2 shelf [I used to be anal about where everything was to be placed in my house]. Anyways, the seals are great and it still
detonated very well.
Safety is allwasy a issue, but it becomes stronger only when you have special circumstances. If you are worried about storing,
and water getting in you could allways throw in some silicon dioxide packets.
Sci Researcher August 24th, 2004, 09:21 AM

]"Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of klos
AN coming up." By:Phone
It is always wise to know that:
AP should only be made, dried, stored in minimal amounts at certain conditions and precautions.
It is highly recommended to consider what are you going to do with the AP before one makes it.
tom haggen August 25th, 2004, 02:38 AM

I have been reluctant to try storing acetone peroxide. However, this idea ate at me until I decided to try it. For one, I always
thought it was kind of pointless. Almost every time I've made acetone peroxide, when soaking in water half of it floats on top
and the other half sinks. This makes it impossible to store it completely under water. I will now post some results that I have
from experimenting with this idea.
1.) A batch of about 30grams was made via megalomania's ratios.
2.) It was neutralized excessively with baking soda until it was extremely basic, and then it was rinsed well to remove excess
baking soda.
3.) It was dried out for a few days in open air to remove all traces of left over acetone, which made it virtually unscented.
4.) It was added to about 300ml of neutral water contained in a jar with a plastic lid. Then half of it proceeded to sink and the
other half stayed afloat as usual.
5.) It sat for about 2 weeks.
6.) After the 2 week time period passed I decided to check on it and see how things were doing. When I opened the lid I
noticed a strong Ketone smell that wasn't there before. Some crystals floating on top of the water had changed from a very
fine size to a larger size but nothing to worry about. The crystals that remained submerged had not changed, and there size
was still very fine. I did notice that some of the AP had decomposed and recrystallized on the inside of the lid.
7.) I decided to filter and dry out the AP. I checked the ph before doing this and to my unpleasant surprise; I found the ph to
be slightly acidic. I have no idea why this happened; all it tells me is that my first assumptions were correct. Storing AP is a
BAD IDEA, under water or not. However, I actually have had positive results when storing AP that has been plasticized with
nitrocellulose, or smokeless powder.
aikon August 25th, 2004, 04:12 AM

..I checked the ph before doing this and to my unpleasant surprise; I found the ph to be slightly acidic...
This is the same thing wit PETN. When you neutralize it with bicarb just on the surface the acid locked inside the crystals is still
present. All that rinses with bicarb are just scratching on the surface and aren't able to get inside the individual crystal. That's
the reason why you recrystallize PETN with acetone.
By just rinsing them in bicarb there's no chance to get rid of all the acid in your AP.

OK people, I'm like most of people here a chemist (that can easily be seen from the language used here) but I had to admitt
that some of you people makes me very concerned about safety of the experiments described here. Someone even talk
about a 1 kilo of AP :eek:
I'm not being judgemental but when it comes to safety knowledge and previous experience doesn't count. I have previously
prepared and used organic peroxides (as a student), but I woldn't take that as easy bussines. As an example I will just say
that recently (couple years ago) I read an article on ChemWeb about a professor from some Eastern-European university that
WAS an electrochemist. He tried to obtain some 10g of tetraethyl-ammonium-perchlorate and in final fase tried to dry it in an
Aberhalden (I hope this is spelled right) drying vacuum pistol. He was obviously experienced in this (that is standard electrolite
in this sort of chemistry) and had enough working experience (in his 50 years). He didn't make it, instead he blow him self,
his lab, an a lab next to that. I also did that purification of electrolite but I will think twice next time.

My mistake. I soaked in bicarb for days, and then I rinsed it with lots of water to remove the excess bicarb. After a few days of
soaking in the bicarb the ph went all the way up to 10. I have no doubt that some type of reaction took place when storing it in
water in a closed container at room temp. Besides, if you recrystallized you acetone peroxide, wouldn't that cause unwanted
growth of large crsytals?
Bugger August 25th, 2004, 05:12 PM

The moral of that story about the chemist in eastern Europe who blew himself up while trying to dry tetraethylammonium
perchlorate is to not store such explosives dry, and not use heat to dry them. Store it damp or in a slurry with water, which will
prevent propagation of ignition due to either percussion or electrostatic discharge or heating; and for use, simply let it dry at
ambient air temperatures. Incidentally, tetraethylammonium perchlorate is likely to be a stronger explosive than ammonium
perchlorate, because the CH3CH2- groups in it provide a much greater source of combustible material available to be oxidized
by the ClO4- ion. Each ClO4- ion can oxidize 8 C-C or C-H or N-H or N-C bonds, with the Cl being reduced from the +7 to the -
1 oxidation state, but in NH4ClO4 there are only 4 such bonds (a deficiency), while in N(CH3CH2)4ClO4 there are 28 such
bonds (a surplus). The nearest matches in substituted ammonium perchlorates would be in NH3CH3ClO4 (7),
NH3(CH3CH2)ClO4 (10), NH2(CH3)2ClO4 (10).
BTW Was this thread originally about ammonium perchlorate or acetone peroxide (both are refereed to as AP)?
Bugger.
tom haggen August 25th, 2004, 08:45 PM

Actually aikon I was thinking about it, and your reason for the ph becoming acid seems like a good explanation. I still say its
a lame way to store AP because half floats and half sinks. This still allows the acetone peroxide to subliminate. FUTI your
english licks balls.
aikon August 26th, 2004, 03:39 AM

It was just an idea Tom. I'm not a big fan of AP and when I make some (edit: in my dreams) I use it right after production. I
think Recrystallization could be done when the AP dissolves well in the suitable solvent and you have a special look at the
formation of large crystals. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble.

Actually aikon I was thinking about it, and your reason for the ph becoming acid seems like a good explanation. I still say its
a lame way to store AP because half floats and half sinks. This still allows the acetone peroxide to subliminate. FUTI you
english licks balls.
His English seems fine to me. At least he can spell "your"... - Anthony
My Slavic origin (and living space) is mine best excuse...I deeply apologise if (or more likely when) I make mistake(s) in
writting English. I could use some spell checking program from word or something but I find this way much more honest. I get
back to that post I made and find some mistakes too. No hard feeling guys, I do not make fun off anyone if I'm saying all to
be cautious. :o

Yes aikon. I dream of the day when I'm bold enough to move on to a better primary.
BrendanK February 7th, 2005, 04:12 AM

Storing AP damped with methanol is just fine. Dry it before use (but not too dry because it can help in reducing the friction
sensitivity of the AP for pressing).
c.Tech June 24th, 2006, 01:46 PM

How about dissolving AP in acetone, adding bi-carb and stirring. Because the crystals are in a solution the powdered bi-carb
has a greater surface area to neutralize the acid. Although I haven t got my ha nds on some litmus pa per or solution to p rove
if this works yet :(.
If it is possible to wash AP in a solution, would the AP decompose causing more acid to form making the crystals acidic again?
To get my AP as pure as possible I usually flush them with water in a filter, dissolve in acetone, stir with bi-carb, filter, slowly
let the acetone evaporate and regularly add water to help keep the AP which crystallizes on the sides submerged.
I store it in a glass jar under water with something such as a funnel sitting on top for easily removal without much of a risk of
crystallization causing detonation when opened, like with many containers lids.
I have also herd in another thread that washing wet AP with ethanol would speed the drying process and is quite effective. This
is a plus because storing it under water is much safer than in a solvent and now can also be dried quickly :D.
zajcek01 June 24th, 2006, 10:52 PM

Never store organic peroxides for more than a few days!
But if you really must, you should first neutralize the acid by disolving in acetone and adding sodium bicarbonate into solution,
then dry ( not completly ) and soke in alcohol ( I like to use isopropanol, because I can't stand the smell of ethanol,methanol
etc... ). It is a good thing that all chrystals are submerged under the alcohol. Check once a week that alcohol is still there.
And I repeat, it is not good to store any organic peroxyde for more than a few days!
Do not make so much that you will have to store it! Use imediatley! And be careful whit that thing!
PS. Please don't kill me for my spelling ---> I'm on linux machine again, and I can't use spell checking :(
Sorry for my english, I'mstill learning.
inventorgp June 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM

I am thinking, is Phone related to QCS - the quantum physicist that
was going to strap 200g of PETN to his head?
Maybe I would store 50kg's of AN but, AP??? that guy is psycho.
I don't store more than 50g, in water for more than two weeks.
And it is stored away from everything!
I bet this guy stores it next to his RDX:p
And zajcek01 I think you'd better check

your spelling before you get banned for it
arlentine June 26th, 2006, 01:11 AM

Reading this thread, I realize something. Kids like Phone are sitting at home pondering how to create power. Explosives weild
power that kids only wish they could have. Kinda like guns.
But every time a youth plays with these things, they end up getting hurt or killed. These forums aren't about aquiring power,
but to help the aspiring scientist to begin experimenting, not about producing so much AP to blow the fuck out of anything.
A note to kids: If you have come here to learn how to make bombs, you might as well swallow some arsenic because it will
keep you from killing others as well.
Phone, I thank you for teaching me to not be a complete retard and respect these laws of chemistry set before me. Amen.
nocturnal shadow June 26th, 2006, 06:52 AM

I think everyone here enjoys the power that explosives possess, and just like all power it can be used or abused. And I'm sure
that many of the forums members have abused the power explosives contain but to assume that all youth will abuse this
power is just like saying all guns are bad just because someone got shot.
Much fun can be had with explosives, even bombs, as long as they are used responsibly, safety is taken into consideration
and the lives and property of others are respected.
Controlled Chaos December 2nd, 2006, 01:27 PM

I can't exactly read swedish :p . How do you guys know that was Phone that was killed?
Does anyone know more details about this. Like the amount that exploded and the details about it going of with the kid near?
c.Tech December 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM

I'm assuming him never returning to the forum after that day would be something to consider. But if he got someone else
killed would he ever come here?
I thin k the od ds are that his dea d, eve n if he isn t somebody die d from ignoran ce and our references him were not in vein.
Controlled Chaos December 3rd, 2006, 01:29 PM

It's sad that someone would disrespect something with such power and end up losing their life. I am not sure if he even cared
living, or perhaps he didn't believe anything would ever happen to him.
This makes me wonder if there has been anyone else belonging to these forums that has passed away due to ignorance or an
accident?
This just shows us all that the moment you believe nothing can happen to you, it will. You can never take too many
precautions.
nbk2000 December 3rd, 2006, 05:06 PM

We've lost numerous people over the years, and members have lost more fingers than you can count on 10 hands. :)
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 3rd, 2006, 05:35 PM

I hope the number of missing fingers for The Forum's populace isn't that high... then again, The Forum wasn't always this well
hunted by The Beast.

Figure that for every member who loses a finger and continues posting here, you'll easily have ten members who never come
back because they're too shit-scared of anything explosives related. (or their mom takes away the computer :p).
On the other hand, we had one guy lose three fingers in one accident, but he's still posting. :)
ShadowMyGeekSpace December 4th, 2006, 02:08 PM

Props to whom ever lost the three fingers... dedication is worth respecting.

I had a friend who lost some fingers to AP/MEKP who used to post here, but he left the forum out of fear of LE. I stopped
experimentation for a long time after that myself because I was worried the police/ATF would be kicking down my door after
they raided my friends house. Fortunately nothing came of it(he managed to destroy the hard drive on his computer before
the police and ambulance came)
As to storing AP IMHO there is never any point to store AP, I always made how much I needed and never risked making more.
AP is so easy to make there is no point in making a lot of it at once. I just throw any extra AP I have down the toilet(<1 gram
amounts).
Cindor December 5th, 2006, 03:59 AM

Burn it (in small quantities) and watch the fireball that makes when it deflagrates !!!
c.Tech December 5th, 2006, 05:43 AM

Burn it (in small cuantities) and watch the fireball that makes when it deflagrates !!!
As a precaution, when you burn we t/damp AP it can th row little bits in all directions leaving a hazardo us me ss, though it is nt
that much you can be almost sure its dry when it lands.
no_fear December 17th, 2006, 12:05 AM

Sorry to bring up this thread again, but I saw somewhere that you can store AP with water in a water-tight container for a while.
If you turn the container upside down, even if the water evaporates somehow, the crystals wont deflagrate when you take the
lid off. Is any of this true?

No dry crystals around the lid probably will detona te when you ta ke off th e lid , if the y didn t detonate be fore with anoth er
person they were lucky, the best thing to do is not to store the AP and only make it as you need it.

OK, i probably wont be storing much if any, but what i meant was they said keep the AP in water in a container that was turned
upside down. that way crystals cant form on the lid because they said the AP floats and if the container is upside down, then
they cant form on the lid.

If your storing it just use some plastic wrap or Al foil on the top secured with a rubber band. With a lid the AP can sublime and
crystallize around the lid so when opened you get friction on the nice dry crystals and BANG! :)
OK, i probably wont be storing much if any
You only need 0.25g to tear your hands to shreds.

Exactly why I'm hesitating to make some, and definitely not store too much. maybe like 1mg or something... ;)
Which just in case someone doesn't catch on, I'm not going to store 1mg. How bad would that be anyways? Like a spark or a
little pop or something?

Do you have any clue how small 1 mg of AP is? A milligram is 1/1000 of a gram, storing 1 mg of AP is senseless as it will
sublime or dissolve in water within hours.
No Fear, I have a feeling that you think a milligram is a substitute for "just a little bit" as opposed to a defined unit of
measurement, just as you think "sum1" is an acceptable substitute for "someone".
To answer your question, 1 mg of AP will certainly not do much damage to you if it accidently went off (providing it did not
accidently go off while lying on your eyeball ;) )
waauu December 18th, 2006, 03:58 PM

AP Dissolved in acetone is a good way for storing it, in concentrated solutions it burns with a loud crackling sound, and the
crystals formed by drying AP acetone solution is very small. Keep it in a diluted solution, and don't think that it's safe to store
large amounts in this way.
c.Tech December 18th, 2006, 11:18 PM

Last edited by nbk2000 : December 19th, 2006 at 12:54 PM. Reason: grammar
Notice that italic font at the bottom of your post? It means your grammar was unacceptable (like every other one of your posts
I've seen) and your post had to be edited. Please in the future keep your grammar up to scratch because it is a bannable
offence and annoys the forum members.
P.S. How do you get half your 'I's capitalised in some of your posts whist the other half are lower case?
Flamethrowa January 26th, 2007, 12:26 AM

Sorry to bump, but since the topic of storing AP under a solvent has come up, I thought I'd just add this.
When I make it, and only in small amounts, I prefer never to store it for too long. I tend to use an excess of acid, which
seems to give visually smaller crystals. If I had to approximate I'd say the consistency of icing sugar.
On one occasion I had to store it for about a month. At first, water was used, but part of the product floated at the top of the
beaker, (the dimer perhaps?) and would therefore be left on the walls of the beaker. I instead opted for alcohol, which
ensured that the crystals rested on the bottom.
Perhaps this is because I used cheap store bought "methyl hydrate stove fuel" brand, which may have contained a small
amount of acetone, but it did seem like a small amount of the crystals dissolved.
Upon my return 4 weeks later, the alcohol had apparently taken upon itself the task of distilling itself out of the beaker and
into the Ziploc baggy surrounding it (though it was in the fridge). The crystals seemed to have grown to the size of granulated
sugar.
Personally, this is not a crystal size I would want to deal with. I'd imagine that anyone who stored AP dissolved in acetone
would encounter large crystals when it evaporated unless it was quickly crashed into water. Am I just incorrect here?
c.Tech January 28th, 2007, 02:38 PM

About using an excess of acid is a good idea IMO but only if you neutralize it with bicarb-soda or another base, did your
neutralize your AP?
My AP floats too, same with so me othe r people I have talke d to, but it definitely do e s n t mean it s the dim er.
I have also realised that my 96% alcohol is dissolving some of the AP because when I washed it by tipping alcohol through my
filter where the AP was sitting I got very fine AP crystals in my collection jar. In a couple of days I may test the solubility of AP
in 100ml of alcohol.
I'm assuming the larger crystals that get formed is because the alcohol or acetone dissolved some of the AP then when it
evaporates or the temperature drops the AP is deposited on the outside of the other AP crystals, is that correct?
Does anyone else but me get some very thin flakes of AP in their crystals? When SWIM was drying about 10g today he noticed
flakes when they reflected light.
PeterB2 November 4th, 2007, 01:42 AM

Is there any particular disadvantage to storing AP under acetone? I made some for the first time (religiously followed Mega's
procedure making only a small amount) and stored it in an airtight, plasic container under a thin layer of acetone. With all the
talk of storing it under water, I'm scared I might have made a mistake...
totenkov November 4th, 2007, 03:03 AM

Nope. Your fine to store it under acetone. You are going to loose some of your product however, AP does dissolve somewhat in
acetone.
Honestly though, why do people even bother to store AP? We all know how sensitive it is, how it will take any opportunity to
cause harm to you, so why give it more chances? Though it is unlikely, but if stored for long periods of time the AP may be
able to sublimate through the acetone into the threads of the container, I remember reading about this happening to
someone.
It's your best bet to only make the required amount, use it, and get rid of what you don't need. Taking unnecessary risks with
primary explosives is just asking for it.
rangegal November 19th, 2007, 09:55 AM

Wouldn't it be safer to store your AP in the form of AP putty pressed into your desired shape (a small initiator plug type thing
to place in ETN detonators when needed?) and coated with a few layers of NC lacquer?
deathbymyhand9 November 19th, 2007, 12:29 PM

I personally if needed store AP mixed with water as slurry. After it is slurry I carefully put it in air tight herb jars, (about 4 fl
oz.) the rubber seal is infused to the glass so that there are no nooks and crannies for the AP to get into. I also swirl the AP
around eve r few days in the jar to ke ep any chunks forming. If I thin k som ething about it doesn t lo ok safe I remove the wet
AP put a grill lid over it with a cinder block on it and ignite the wet AP causing a relatively safe wet deflagration.
Shadowmartyr November 19th, 2007, 07:50 PM

Wouldn't it be safer to store your AP in the form of AP putty pressed into your desired shape (a small initiator plug type thing
to place in ETN detonators when needed?) and coated with a few layers of NC lacquer?
The putty doesn't make AP any more storagable than the powdered form, although it does reduce sensitivity to friction since
the crystals aren't rubbing together (if its coasted with a lacquer).
totenkov November 19th, 2007, 07:54 PM

I do store small amounts of HMTD for caps (I usually make it early in the week and let it for over a few days then let it dry so
its ready by saturday). Dont store more than 5 grams, but you can put it into a test tube and cover it with water.
Put in a rubber stopper (only so its just sitting on the lip of the test tube NOT forced in!!) and leave it alone. It's also a good
idea to wet the stopper just before putting it in.
rangegal November 20th, 2007, 03:20 PM

Aside from reducing sensitivity to friction, coated putty form would stop it from sublimating and possibly recrystallizing onto a
lids threads.
Winston Bailey January 29th, 2008, 03:45 PM

This may sound a bit "kewl," however though I thought it might be better to know than assume. Most of the time, whenever I
make AP (in my dreams) I make ALOT, because I intend on using it all in the next day or two. Usually more than phone did.
I have pics if anyone is curious as to how much or maybe you just want to see an extravagent amount of it. Of course it's not
the actuall AP *wink-wink ;)* but rather dampened bi-carb to simulate how much.
If a case arrises and I HAVE to store it, this is what I do. I take my AP (dampened of course) and put it into a gallon ziplock
bag and then inside another. I then place that in a rather large lunch box. I fill the lunch box with cool water and close the lid.
After that, I take the whole thing and burry it in my backyard (I have a very big sand pit). This is done to ensure that if it does
go off, It won't hurt/kill/maime any of my dream characters(i.e. parents, friends, etc,..)
I DO understand that this stuff is VERY dangerous. I am not some moron who thinks they are intangible, or some ignorant
kid, and I do very much care about my own life as well as the lives and safety of others.
My utter most respect and attention to detail is always present when dealing with AP, or chemicals in general for that matter :)
. Please do not take offense to this post or my synthensizing of AP. I have done countless hours(by that I mean at least 6
months) of reading and thinking before attempting such an endeavor.
I respect (almost) every forum go-er here, and your advice etc,.... IS greatly appriciated. If this post is unsuitable I apologize
in advance and I will remove it asap.Thanks
CHEERS
totenkov January 29th, 2008, 04:03 PM

Usually more than phone did
This says it all.
I have countless times seen people like you vanish from the forum, when handling things like AP, its more a case of being
banned from life, not banned for life. :o
Charles Owlen Picket January 29th, 2008, 05:00 PM

I suppose if one MUST store it - putting it into solution may be a method to minimize it's "features" (features like Windowz
has "features"). But maintaining it in it's completed form is asking for trouble. I really don't know why this is still being
discussed; aren't we re-hashing old territory here?
TATP is also boring. The unique thing about HTMD is that it's a damn good initiator. TATP is actually a poor "primary". It's
actually just an unstable energetic peroxide and probably should be called a UEP when referencing it in the context of a
discussion re: it's use as an initiator..

Totenkov,
I can assure you I am nothing like phone.
I forgot to mention I DON'T dry it all at once, but rather in various small quantites in sequential time intervals.
I will be around for a while, and eventually I will make a name for myself.
CHEERS

I will be around for a while, and eventually I will make a name for myself.
I can see you have a sense of humor and that's a good thing. (I know you set this one up)
.....I just hope that "name" isn't...."Stumpy", "Lefty", "Pop-eye", or (worst of all) "Susan". :eek:
But seriously, putting it into solution would be perhaps the safest way but who really would want to? The [raison d' etre] is the
cheap easy method of turning out that material. I could see this thread having value if the MATERIAL had value....If you were
talking about silver azide which uses expensive materials or cubanes, that have such an involved synthesis... But TATP is just
solvent and hair bleach....crap.
There is another way to think about this also - If the ideal is to have a majority of the trimer product over the dimer, with each
lab the bugs that allow for any dimer, get worked out. It's a smarter thing to achieve; the understanding of the variables that
preclude the triperoxide percentage relationship.
Emil January 30th, 2008, 08:56 PM

Yes I personally don't see the fuss about AP. There are so many accounts of it being unpredictable and people are forever
questioning the safety issues involved with it. Sure all primaries are sensitive but AP worries me. Partially because its the most
"f4m0us" explosive within our field, if you get me. Your run of the mill kewl is definitley going to be familiar with AP over any
other explosive.
I use HMTD personally. Given respect (Like all materials should, especially primaries), I think its pretty safe to work with. Why?
Because after storing some for around 6 months, it is still as nice as it was the day I made it. Its charecteristics are pretty
much identical. It's been stored dry, normal just in a open container in my drawer. All I did to neutralize it after making it was
one 4% Sodium bicarbonate wash, and filtered straight from the mix, no tap water wash, just straight out. What could be more
easy?
Even my ETN is suprisingly fine after one baking soda wash. Had that almost 2months. I'm not saying that it doesn't need
recrystalizing, but it certainly hasn't broken down in any form.
Anyway like previously stated. Why bother to store significant amounts of primary? As long as you have a few gramms at
hand, make it as you need, and get rid of the rest.

HMTD is a true primary and recognized as such. ...Just my opinion but TATP is a simple energetic peroxide. I secretly wish I
could find some source material that outlined initiation and defined "primary explosive" which could preclude the use of TATP
in that context...
- so that people would stop discussing it in the context of anything but an untrustworthy energetic chemical anomaly.
I did find some old writings of TENNY DAVIS (the fellow who wrote the COPAE) and uploaded them to the FTP. But he never
commented on that crap. He just had some material from USBoM on HTMD. I think maybe Urbanski called TATP a non-primary
but I'm not sure. It was said in the context of detonation being defined as the breakdown of material on the molecular level,
etc. Someone will find something to that effect; calling a spade a spade and TATP, crap!

Charles,
Haha I am glad you found that funny, "pop-eye" and "stumpy" we good :p.
However, I have decided as of now, that HMTD will be my next project. I have had my fun with AP(UEP) but on to bigger and
better things(and sfaer things lol).
The only reason I ever made so much AP at once is 1)It is much cheaper 2)Less time consuming 3) And 80% of it goes into a
booster (APAN+charcoal).This was a off topic, I apologize. I store the booster in the same manner as i described as before.
I tend not to submerse it in any solvents because as I had stated earlier.... AT MAX it will only be there for a day or two.
CHEERS
Silentnite February 19th, 2008, 06:01 PM

I've got to say that I've always had my fun with TATP. I've made small batches when I felt like some fireworks and left it at
that. I've stored it a few times successfully(last year in preparation for the fourth of july), in simple water. Flip the container
over and its not so bad.
But a kilo? That's just asking for it. You can try quantifying your statement however you want, but messing around on that
scale and considering it a joke is kewl to the extreme.
nitriees February 20th, 2008, 05:58 AM

My batche of TATP for storage test was reached 4 years old now. It is place in the glass bottle with water and the plastic lid
loosely closed. I take a small quantity, dry it out and test occasionally until now it still in perfect condition.
The dry powder batche store in the plastic bottle with the lid loosely closed was reached 2 years old now, quality was still good,
no changes on crystal size and sublimation are negligible.
This is my personal storage test for information, do not practically apply it because our environment, temperature fluctuation
and himidity are difference. Such as some people able to stored HMTD for two months without the quality affected but for my
environment it just decomposed fast within few days and become useless after one week whether how well I neutralised it,
rinsed it, stored air tigh or exposure.
Azido February 20th, 2008, 01:03 PM

I just made around a hundred grams of ap, and I'm keeping it stored like this. Two wet filters are placed in an Altoids
container, and then the damp ap is poured into the container. The filter paper excess is loosely folded over the ap and a little
bit of water is poured into the base of the container. The container is closed and taped, to prevent any evaporation. And then I
buried it outside. :D
Devourer April 15th, 2008, 03:40 PM

I plan to store some AP (my country recently forbidd the use of H2O2 in industry), until i can make a safer primary...
I dream of storing approximately 100grams + water in a ziplock bag as a slurry. No air in it. The bag will be put into an
exterior casing, but not with a lid. It will be stored at low temperatures.
It may be stored for over a year, but I dont think it will last that long. ;)
I will not dry the product before i put it into water. Just rinse it with bicarb. It is btw made by Megas method, but with HCl
instead of Sulfuric acid.
Would all this be safe??
After all i have read, this should relatively safe. But I want to know that I have not missed anything. One question not asked,
could be one too much.
So i'll rather just ask then. :)
And...
Will cooling the product below zero, be as good as (or better?) than storing it in water?
Thanks. :)
Charles Owlen Picket April 16th, 2008, 12:24 PM

.
Will cooling the product below zero, be as good as (or better?) than storing it in water?
NO. The material will be ridged and possibly crystalline unless completely anhydrous, which is unlikely. The understanding of
how an energetic peroxide is initiated indicates that perhaps the safest way is to store the individual components. What is
wrong with storing just the components instead of the competed composition?
There are materials that lend themselves to long term storage. Energetic peroxides are not one of them.
Devourer April 19th, 2008, 08:54 AM

[QUOTE=Charles Owlen Picket;102844]What is wrong with storing just the components instead of the competed composition?
QUOTE]
Because H2O2 gets more useless over time.

Or is it a way of storing it without loosing H2O2 percentage?
megalomania April 21st, 2008, 04:33 PM

There is no ideal way to store AP, it is dangerous and problematic any which way you choose. You can store hydrogen peroxide
far longer than would be feasible for AP. Again, it's not that storage is a perfect idea, it is just some methods of storage are
less terrible than others.
Water can easily escape a plastic bag, even frozen it will sublime, and the same goes for AP. After a year you will have an
extremely large quantity of an unstable high explosive just waiting to go off when you touch it. Hydrogen peroxide can keep
its strength for several years if tightly sealed, kept away from light, and stored in a cool place.
ETCS (Ret) April 22nd, 2008, 02:40 AM

I don't know that I'd encourage tightly sealing a bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide. Unless you know for a certainty that the vent
which is supposed to be part of the packaging is working well.
I kept a gallon jug of Peroxide in a dark, cool place for several years until one day it popped and made a huge mess. I hadn't
verified that it was venting and the pressure built up.
It "supposedly" had a tiny vent built into the cap.
For safety's sake loosen the cap from time to time, regularly, to release any pressure.
If I had it to do all over, I'd keep it in the fridge and vent it every 2 - 3 months.
megalomania April 22nd, 2008, 03:12 AM

See my thread on the spontaneous transformation of TATP into DADP in storage depending on the type of acid catalyst used.
Yet another reason why storing acetone peroxide is a very bad idea.
Spontaneous Transformation of TATP to DADP Using Certain Acid Catalysts

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=7494
-=HeX=- May 5th, 2008, 02:17 PM

Storing TCAP is pointless simply because it is so damn cheap and simple to prepare. Now if you must do so how about storing
it in solution in acetone with the bottle turned upside down, in a bucket lined with water soaked sponges? The water soaked
sponge would keep it cool and also protect it to some extent against fires and shock.
Another way to store it would be loaded into its sealed caps (I am assuming electrical) in a foam lined box in the fridge. This
is only for TCAP made with hydrochloric acid and well neutralized.
All in all I think you should not store TCAP or if possible just not use it at all. DDNP looks to be a promising substitute... Just it
is a pain in the ass to make.

Why is everyone "neutralizing" it with a *base*? Bases speed up peroxide decomposition, why else is commercial H2O2
stabilized with acid? Please note they simply wash until neutral, implying no (bi)carbonate but plain water.
Why is the transformation *such* a bad news? IIRC the dimer is "slightly more sensitive and slightly less powerful". Not that
it's not bad enough, but whether it's 5, 6 or 7 times more sensitive then MF doesn't matter much. Handling more than
fragments of a gram (unless remotely) once dry is taking risks anyway. I shudder when I read of "5-gram pressed AP caps".
On a personal note (apart from having banned explosives from my flat for legal reasons...): I used to make it in bulk but
keep it wet during the whole process, then stored as a water slurry in film cans in the fridge. Never mass-drying limits the risk
greatly.
Some film canisters lasted 4+ years, but I *did* notice crystal growth even while dripping wet at 5C.
So later I dried the remaining stash in small amounts, spread very thinly on paper, and dissolved it in acetone. If needed, a
few cc were injected (syringe + thinnest needle) into rapidly stirred water, filtered, pressed between toilet paper, dried and
loaded into caps. With MHN as a base charge, 100mg per cap is enough. With perfect confinement (1.5mm ID brass 'pipe'), it
makes DDT reliably within 5mm, needing under 10 mg!
Not only does this liquid storage/recrystallization make the catalyst less important, it also gives smallest possible crystal size.
Openly stored samples sublimed within weeks instead of month. Paper-cased detonators were literally self-disarming, if
dissected after a year (probably less), there was just an empty space above the base charge!
Lastly, looking at the DTA in the paper, the trimer decomposes rapidly above 70C, while the dimer melts at 140C, then
evaporates at 150C. Did I get it all wrong? This makes the dimer look *more* stable!?
-=HeX=- May 6th, 2008, 03:10 PM

Maybe we should be acidifying our TCAP then with citric acid? That sounds kind of insane to me... I like your idea for self
disarming caps and may take up using them myself. That is unless I get access to a better primary... And sorry for making
you shudder with my large pressed TCAP caps... My right index finger twinges when I even think of such caps these days :P so
I doubt I will be using them.
IMHO we should have a thread on safely disposing of TCAP. I have done so in the past by lightly spreading the powder over a
piece te paper and igniting with a bit of burning paper on a 6 foot pole. How have other people here destroyed unwanted TCAP
safely and uneventfully (Except for fireballs)?
Lewis May 7th, 2008, 02:27 AM

I get it wet, and throw it out.
Once it's in the dumpster, it's someone else's problem.
Bert May 7th, 2008, 01:25 PM

Once it's in the dumpster, it's someone else's problem.
I can't even begin to address how fucking stupid and irresponsible that is.
-=HeX=- May 8th, 2008, 05:04 PM

Good to see the forum back. When I saw the 'Account suspended' notice I thaught mega had been arrested and the
crackdown had begun! Either that or those I-Defenceless goons had committed more crimes.
Lewis: I am sorry but I am with bert on this one. What happens if it goes off due to someone dumping their junk and the
shock of a computer monitor falling on it for example. Bang. And your life is going out the window. Say bye to normality and hi
to bubba.
I think that controlled deflageration is the way to in, either that or making APAN and setting that off Are the best ways. Bert,
what idea would you have for TCAP disposal?
Ethyl May 8th, 2008, 05:24 PM

How have other people here destroyed unwanted TCAP safely and uneventfully (Except for fireballs)?
Well I don't think that an explosive can ever be "unwanted". The best thing to do is to make it as much as you need. If you
somehow have an excess of it then (if possible) store it until you need it. Disposing it of is a waste of time, work and
materials.
Back on topic:
As I have read in this thread AP can be somewhat safely stored in solution. If I would have excess of it I would do that.
As to disposing it, burning it "piece by piece" is my favorite idea. You can also flush it down the toilet or if you live near a sea,
river or lake just pour it out in the water.
Lewis May 9th, 2008, 04:34 PM

What happens if it goes off due to someone dumping their junk and the shock of a computer monitor falling on it for
example.
Perhaps I should elaborate a little. Back when I used AP on a regular basis, I would still make only small amounts... say less
than a couple grams.
Any leftover AP would be negligible. I would spread it, wet, on a thin layer of toweling, then drop it to the bottom of the
dumpster. I also wouldn't do this with the dumpster directly behind my house.
Much more immoral things are discussed here than perhaps scaring someone with a little bang.
Bert May 9th, 2008, 04:36 PM

Bert, what idea would you have for TCAP disposal?
"And the Kewls went unto the temple and stood before the priest as he sayeth unto them: Renounce the organic peroxides;
turn your head from Satan and be healed! And they saw the uncleanness all around them: their beekers and flasks were
befouled! And as they saw, they wept for they knew they were shamed in the eyes of those who went before them."
The best path would be to never need to dispose of it, because you never made it in the first place.
I know no one who is just starting out will listen to that advice, it's so easy and kewl to make.
Open burn is probably the way to go. Dissolve it in a flammable solvent and spread on a large piece of cardboard in a safe
place, then set the cardboard on fire from a down wind corner, retireing quickly. Same way you'd dispose of a small ammount
of nitroglycerin.
-=HeX=- May 9th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Bert: Quote:
"And the Kewls went unto the temple and stood before the priest as he sayeth unto them: Renounce the organic peroxides;
turn your head from Satan and be healed! And they saw the uncleanness all around them: their beekers and flasks were
befouled! And as they saw, they wept for they knew they were shamed in the eyes of those who went before them."
Brilliant! I like it... And yes, you do have a very good point. Personally I only bother with it because I find better things hard to
obtain at my age... But I now have 2 or 3 sodium azide filled airbags at my disposal! Storage is moot when the substance is
not there :D.
Bert May 9th, 2008, 10:29 PM

Before you try to crack one of those open be sure to research Sodium azide's properties, particularly toxicity. It is every bit as
dangerous as cyanide.
Lewis May 9th, 2008, 10:54 PM

Indeed, this is the main reason I'm so reluctant to go this route for a source of primaries. Of all the dangerous projects I'd be
willing to cook up, high voltage, and extreme toxicity are the hazards I'm most afraid of.
Bert May 10th, 2008, 01:45 AM

Wear gloves. Wear a filter mask when handling the dry chemical. Make sure that solutions are slightly basic.
-=HeX=- May 10th, 2008, 06:07 AM

Lewis (And bert): I got your private message lewis and will reply here due to my pm sender being on the fritz again. I have
read the msds a few times and have even seen it suggested as a suicide pill.
I know that it is horribly toxic and will be wearing gloves, goggles, a face mask, and I will have a friend nearby to arrange my
funeral. I hope to make azo clathrates. I will probably just pry it apart and dump its filler into water with some sodium
hydroxide. Then I will take it from there.
It will be summer before I have the time to attempt it so do not be waiting.
++++++++++++++++++
Lets get this thread back on track - Duke

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > The Beginner's Guide To Acetone
Peroxide
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Arthis June 7th, 2003, 09:21 AM

I tried to make a short synthesis about AP, as we wanted to do long ago (not especially about AP, remember Noltair's project).
I had some time (not much) so here it is.
-------------------------------------------
An AP beginner s m a n u a l
Introduction
A few chemistry basics
Synthesis
Precursors
Research and FAQ
Introduction
AP, or TCAP, stands for acetone tricycloperox yde. It s a common very sensitive explosive for beginners, a s its e asy to make ,
does not require any chemistry skills, nor hard to find chemicals.
It has some obvious advantages, some even more obvious problems , but as it s o ften made by beginn ers, it may be us eful
to compile most common information and research about it, made by members of the Forum. Of course further research and
experiences are welcomed.
AP comes in 2 different forms, dicyclo and tricycloperoxyde.

Dimer and trimer picture + the reaction
The dimer form is more unstable, and tends to self-decompose easily while the trimer form is more (relatively) stable.
You should try to get th e trimer form, as it s a lso more powerful, and for that yo u need to keep the reaction the coo lest
possible.
You may have noticed that the acid is not present in the equation: it only acts as a catalyst.
Method to synthetise AP
[Write your own work you plagiarizing bitch. - ALENGOSVIG1]
Precursors: th ere s n ot many thin gs to say about them.

Acetone is a common solvent you can bu y in any drugstore, home store If yo u can t, you may find it in some nail polish
remo ver, b ut be careful as it s e x p e n s ive, and some nail polish remover contain no acetone (sub titutes are used, better for
your nails), and there are many other stuffs that may parasite the reaction.
Hydrogen peroxyde is oxygenated water that you can buy in pharmacy, as antiseptic or as hair bleacher. It should then be 3-6
%, just add some more to have the good number of moles in the reaction. It is normally sold to everyone in drugstores, as a
bleacher, to the concentration of 30-35 %, and it will be far cheaper. Just ask if you can order some. Taxidermists and hair
shops should have some, you can ask there too.
Hydrochloric a cid can be found in any store, it is pH relevant for swimming pools. It s very common. You may want to use
another acid instead of this, see in the Research/FAQ section for that.
Research and FAQ

(mostly a FAQ for the moment though)
Concentration of the hydrogen peroxyde

Using more concentrated H2O2 should not change the yield, as long as you put the same number of moles in the mix: if you
use 6% instead of 30%, just put 5 times more hydrogen peroxyde. But note that AP dissolve (not much) in water so you may
lose some. Some members have noticed that usually, they get better yields with concentrated H2O2.
Acid used
The acid acts as a catalyst and about any acid can be used in AP synthesis. Citric acid and sulfuric acid are also commonly
used but some differences can be noted, and must be taken into account.
Sulfuric acid: adding it will cause immediately a local overheating and ebullition. You must add it drop-by-drop. A good
solution to avoid a temperature elevation is to dilute your acid and let it cool (e.g. from 95+ % to 30%).
Hydrochloric acid: easy to get, it may be the best suited acid in this synthesis, regarding to its low cost. It is safer too, as
pouring the whole acid at once in the mix will not cause (even local) ebullition or overheating; however, the global temp of
the mix will rise th us favoring the formation of the dimer, or even producing tear gas. Don t forg et that it s e asie r to keep the
reaction cool than cooling it down once the temperature has raised.
Citric acid: this is not a strong acid, but it works well too. The main interest, excepted the ease in keeping the reaction cool, it
that it s way easier to wash the AP and make it neutral, co mpared with th e use of stro ng acids.
Toxicity
Pure AP is not tox ic, doesn t go trough th e skin. The problem may only come from (unwanted explosions ;) ) the a cid kept
in, if not well neutralized.
Color
Normally AP is pure white. However colors may appear with impurities, for example rust if you used an iron spoon to stir the
mix. Impurities may also be due to impure reactants like acetone from nail polisher.
Volatility
Pressing AP
Thanks
All thos e who have made experimen ts, my family a nd my cat for all the love they g ave m e, sniff, Alengosvig1 for the
method I copied from his website. [Yeah, without even asking me. - ALENGOSVIG1]
------------------------------------------
it's far from being complete. I typed it on word, so it doesn't look very beautiful here, maybe I'll put it in pfd if I find
something to do it. Pictures of the molecules and reactions are ready, too bored to post them though. (and there's no real
need here, just note that they exist, I'll put them in the final version).
I'm waiting for your comments, and if any of you wants to make a part of it feel free to send them.
I'll try to complete it when I have some time, I'll send the different add-ons as soon as they're ready.
zaibatsu June 7th, 2003, 10:46 AM

Arthis, if you need someone to turn it into a PDF file for you, I can do that. However, I would require you to email the pics etc
to me.
knowledgehungry June 7th, 2003, 11:12 AM

I have noticed that when using low concentrations such as 3% H2O2 it is best to use concentrated H2SO4. With such a low
percentage of H2O2 there is very little trouble with overheating, and as many other people have mentioned the amount of
acid requires varies inversely with the percentage of H2O2. When using HCl with 3% H2O2 i have to use the same amount of
HCl as acetone:eek: for me to get any results, and it is still a smaller yeild due to the increas of H2O for the AP to dissolve in.
Just thought you might want to drop a footnote about that.
inFinie June 7th, 2003, 12:57 PM

So, what's the solubility of TCAP in water?
(in x gr TCAP in 100gr H20 @ 25oC)

Mix the actone and the hydrogen peroxide in a beaker and cool it to 5 degrees celsius in an icebath. When the liquids are
mixed, it will begin to heat up a bit and turn slightly cloudy. When it's been cooled to 5 degrees, you must slowly add the
hydrochloric acid to the acetone/hydrogen peroxide solution. Add the hydrochloric acid 2 ml at a time. If the temperature of
the acetone/hydrogen peroxide solution approaches 10 degrees, stop the acid addition and wait for the temperature to drop
back down. The addition should take about 20 minutes. After all of the acid has been added, let the solution sit in an icebath
for 4 hours. You may have to replace the ice
After 4 hours, there should be large amounts of white precipitate in the solution. This is acetone peroxide. Filter the solution
through a coffee filter to collect the precipitate. Throw away the filtrate (liquid left after filtering out the solid). Add the acetone
peroxide to a beaker containing 1L of distilled water and stir it with a plastic drinking straw for 5 minutes. Again, filter out the
acetone peroxide and add it to a beaker containg 1L of 5% sodium bicarbonate solution and let it sit for 12 hours with
occasional stirring. Filter out the acetone peroxide and add it to 500 ml of distilled water. lastly, filter out the acetone peroxide
and let it dry. To the left is a picture of the solution 1 hour after adding all of the hydrochloric acid.
ALL of the above has been taken from my website WITHOUT my permission. REMOVE IT NOW. Wait, i'll do it for you. Most of
it is copied word for word except a few lame instances where there has been some slight changes. You didn't even take the
time to remove the parts where it says "to the left is a picture of whatever". Fucking sad.
kingspaz June 7th, 2003, 07:05 PM

arthis, for an older member i would have expected better. such as inventing your OWN synth via chemistry and some practical
quantified experiments other than taking other peoples methods without permission.

Oh I'm so sorry, really I am. In fact I wanted to ask your permission, I wanted to say that if any ripped info in here was to be
removed then just ask, but I forgot to put it (got out of my mind).
The fact I was trying to make other more interesting parts, and I was too bored to write a synthesis, and yours is well known.
Note I didn't try to 'steal' your method I mentionned in credits that I had.
So far I've made other parts, included schemes, etc... I found in a software my mother had, Acrobat 3, so even if it's not the
latest stuff (version 6 is out), it still works.
I need to make a few experiments myself, about the dissolution in acetone/water, soon, maybe this afternoon (if my AP is
ready, since I don't have some stored).
Again excuse me for taking your method, gonna write mine right now.
---------------------
OK this is done. I've just modified the method, since Alen doesn't want me to use it. The new pdf should a pretty good
overview and not a lame stuff like you said.
I made all the calculations, they should be correct, if you notice any error, tell me, I'll modify it.
The dissolution experience is still to come.
The link to pfd:An AP beginner's manual (http://membres.lycos.fr/arthis00000/An%20AP%20beginner's%20manual.pdf).
There's no more credit, I don't think I've ripped any info excepted the H2O2 concentration/density graph, from www.h2o2.com.
Any add, answer appreciated.

There are some typos, in fact one with many instances;)
cristal should be crystal

Oh right, I'll modify this. The fact is in French it is cristal, and I was tricked. I gonna modify this. I should install the word
ortograph check btw, too.
My AP is drying in the sun now. I don't think I'll be able to make the dissolution experiment today. (maybe, who knows ?).
Tomorrow for sure you'll have the results, and in acetone too.

I tested TCAP dissolution.
Results are not very precise, this is an idea.

I got:
* 0.4 gr TCAP in 700-800gr H20 @ 25oC, I stopped the experiment after having had 400mL of water, but compared to the
quantity left non dissolved I think this is a good approximation.
* 15 gr TCAP in 60mL acetone @ 25oC. This is an approximation, a bit more could have been dissolved but it took way more
time to dissolve, so that should be globally a reliable value.
We see that AP dissolves very well in acetone, not much in water, so the addition of acetone in your mix should be limited,
even if you waste H2O2, rather than adding more acetone that will globally result in a loss of AP. I think 2-3 mL more than the
stoechiometric ratios should be enough (still it will cause a more than 0.5-1 g loss).

What about adding lots of acetone, to increase reaction speed and then, when reaction is done add lots of water to
precipitatetate AP.. how do solubility of AP vary in mix of acetone and water?
Oh, about a typo, your acetone on pic in pdf have double bondings.. :p

also, for diluting concentrated H2SO4, you must add somthing to say 'always add the acid to the water never the other way
around otherwise acid will spatter everywhere'.
also, have you thought how adding the acetone to the acid then adding the H2O2 would affect the reaction as opposed to
adding the acetone to the H2O2 and then adding the acid or even adding the H2O2 to the acid and then adding the acetone? i
think the last one would give best yields for no particular reason other than i have a hunch (not on my back).
blindreeper June 8th, 2003, 11:09 PM

On the subject of AP. Once I have done some calculations (doing it myself even though the ammounts are out there) today or
in the next week, if I can borrow a digital camera off my friend I'll be doing a controlled test changing only one variable - The
Acid. I know this may have been done but I want to do it using the 3 most common inorganic acids availabe OTC. I'll be using
30% HCl, 98% H2SO4 (boiled battery acid) and 70% H3PO4 (rust remover). What do you guys think, is it worth while doing it
or just wasting my time? The only real thing stopping me is that I only have 2 250ml beakers and if I use a glass jar it may
have an effect on the results.
Also I have heard that sulfuric acid is stronger than hydrochloric and so on and so forth. But does anyone out there know how
to have the same "strength" of acid. Eg: 1M of sulfuric acid is equal in strength to 5M of phosphoric acid. Or somthing like
that. I think it has some thing to do with the ammount of H+ ions in the acid. If any of you know what I'm on about and can
calculate the equivenceys (sp?) it would be helpful as I'll do that in my experiment, as it would be like have 30ml of H2SO4 in
one beaker and then having 1ml in another and saying they are the same as they are the same strength.
EDIT: Another source of H2O2 in Australia is a product called "Oxyplus" which is sold in hydroponic shops. I have scanned the
lable for those who want to know what to look for.
http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/oxypluslable.html

I've modified the schemes of acetone, a stupid error it was, really.
Adding the acid to h2o2 then the acetone is not the best way depending on the acid you use. I've read that H2SO4 + H2O2 ->
H2SO5 + H2O,
though there should be no problem with HCl.
Last, I presented acetone+acid, then h2o2 to change a bit, for people to be aware you can do about as you want, to keep the
reaction the coolest possible. I personnally quasi never use this method, but one do as he wants. Maybe I'll say a word about
that.
I'm not sure filming is necessary. Instead of beakers use jam pots (empty ;)). You'll tell me if my calculations are correct,
there may be some errors (I'm far from reaching a decent yield compared to theory...)
80r15 June 10th, 2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by ALENGOSVIG1
ALL of the above has been taken from my website WITHOUT my permission. REMOVE IT NOW. Wait, i'll do it for you. Most of
it is copied word for word except a few lame instances where there has been some slight changes. You didn't even take the
time to remove the parts where it says "to the left is a picture of whatever". Fucking sad.
I hate it when people plagerize from my website too. Although, maybe he was just using it to enlighten us(on acetone
peroxide, which everyone has synthesized, and a great synthesis is at roguesci.org/megalomania). But if he meant to do that,
why didn't he just leave a link?? Hmmmm Interesting...

80r15, look up the page. its already been dealt with. no need to bring trouble back to the surface.
80r15 June 10th, 2003, 01:36 PM

Sorry. And KingSpaz, is there any way I can change this gay screen-name without re-registering???

In order to forget lame posts ? Maybe you should just try to be an interesting member and post interesting things about
explosives and weapons.
Anyway, there have been not many appreciations about my guide, do you think it's correct ? Would I need to add anything ?
How to make it accessible by newbies if they want it ?

80r15, you must re-register to lose the gay name.
Arthis, try adding a reaction mechanism backed with the chemistry behind each step. and also about the differences in reaction
conditions making each AP batch slightly different. thats why some is more sensative than others - variations in the
trimer:dimer ratio.

blindreeper, using a jam jar for one reaction shouldn't make any difference, unless you can't remove all the product from the
jam jar because of its shape. In that case rinse all reaction vessels out well.
Or do all the reactions in jam jars.
It would be best to do at least two reactions with each acid type and take an average score.
Probably best to use a equi-molar amounts of acid for each reaction, so you'll have different amounts of each acid.
blindreeper June 15th, 2003, 02:45 AM

Ok thanks Anthony I'll do equimolar amounts. This is the Calculations I have done and was wondering if I made any
mistakes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STIOCHEMISTRY - ACETONE PEROXIDE (TRIMER)
Reaction
2 H2O2 + 3 C3H6O + Acid catalyst ---> C9H18O6 + H2O + H2
Reactants
Hydrogen peroxide - H2O2 - Molar weight = 34.0146 x2 = 68.0292

Acetone - C2H6O - Molar weight = 58.0798 x3 = 174.2394
Products
Acetone peroxide (trimer) - C9H18O6 = 222.1

Water - H2O - Molar weight = 18
Hydrogen - H2 - Molar weight = 2
Density of 100% H2O2 = 1.46g/ml

68.0292 / 1.46 = 46.58ml of 100% H2O2
25% H2O2 = 46.58 x 4
= 186.36ml of 25% H2O2
Density of acetone = 0.789g/ml

174.2394 / 0.789 = 220.8357 of acetone
Theoretical Yeild
186 ml of 25% H2O2

220 ml of acetone
in the presence of acid will yeild 222g of trimetric acetone peroxide.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am new to working this stuff ouyt so can you guys please point out the stuff thats wrong. I'm not too sure I did the densities
right...

Nope. There's no release of hydrogen in the reaction. For the trimeric reaction, the equation should be
3 H2O2 + 3 C3H6O --> C9H18O6 + 3 H2O

Well other than me getting the raction wrong :rolleyes: did I do the densities and other stuff correct?

Take the pdf I made for the densities. I noticed that while using Windows' calculator I fucked up the calculation, because of
the scientific/standard calculation mode. I should update the pdf to modify these.
You need to recalculate the weights, as you have them function of 2 H2O only. Rest seems to be ok.

The way you calculated your amount of H2O2 is only correct if you start from 100% H2O2. Otherwise, dilution will cause density
changes which are not predictable, just consult a density table for you concentration of peroxide.

I thought I'd use 100% to start with as there is an assumed 100% in the reaction scheme. So how would I go about altering
the density of H2O2. Would finding the density of 25% H2O2 (1.1g/mL) and finding that then x it by 4 as 25% is a quater of
100%?
Nevermore June 17th, 2003, 04:39 PM

Some days ago i tried a possible way of storing Ap. I took around 5 grams of dry Ap and dissolved in room temp acetone, stil
till completely dissolved.
The solution appeared clear after the complete dissolution of Ap, then i stored the solution in fridge for a week, a very small
precipitated appeared when the acetone got cold, but was very little.
After a week i decided the experiment was over, so i fastly poured all the acetone into a large becker of icy cold water,
immediately the solution turned white and precipitate appeared.
After filtration i measure the Ap, it was barely 2/3 of the one that was dissolved the week before, also the cristal where
somewhat bigger.
I assume this way of storing ap could be used at price of great loss of Ap and bigger cristals..
Definitely not worth considering that is possible to make Ap right before it is needed.
I assume is not possible to detonate the Ap while dissolved in Acetone due to the large quantity of acetone needed to
completely dissolve 3g Ap (200-250ml).

Dissolving AP in acetone has been discussed before. If you can only get 3g of AP to dissolve in 200+ ml of acetone,
something is seriously wrong. :eek:
I suspect you lost most of you product when you attempted to precipitate the AP. If you dissolved 3g in 200+ ml of acetone
you'd have to pour it into ALOT of water to dilute the acetone enough to crash out the crystals, as Ap is very soluble in acetone
and even a weak water/acetone solution should dissolve quite a bit of AP. Still, you wont get it all back, becuase as Athris'
experement has shown, AP is soluble in water.
Sonny Jim June 17th, 2003, 06:09 PM

Why not just leave the acetone/AP solution in a shallow dish and allow the acetone to evaporate off, leaving the AP behind.
That seems easier than cooling the acetone to precipitate out AP crystals, and should leave you with a better percentage
recovery rate for the AP.

Becuase then you'd be left with big, flakey crystals, which would probably stick to whatever they're drying on. Meaning you
migh have to scrape the crystals off the dish.
Scraping large, flakey crystals of AP off of anything isn't my idea of a good time. :)

You could remove the crystals before all of the acetone had evaporated, so most of the AP had precipitated out but was still
damp due to the remaining acetone. The damp AP could then be placed in safer drying conditions. This works quite well, but
you will be able to recover a better amount of AP if your acetone/AP solution is saturated or near to it.
fayll June 18th, 2003, 10:25 PM

quote:
______________________________
My AP is drying in the sun now

______________________________
Arthis, if you want a long life, you should be to avoid doing dry AP under the sunlight ;) .
Use precaution when you write your pdf file about AP guide, because newbies don't know all risk when they making AP for the
first time. Last month in France, there is a teenager who had serious damage with AP. Bonn's and one of his friends too. AP is
very unstable under the UV radiation.
_______________________________

fayll, not meaning to be harsh or disrepectful but I think Arthis knows what he is doing and telling him about if he wants a long
life is probably not good seeing as he been here since nearly the begining.
fayll June 19th, 2003, 06:44 AM

Ok, sorry, but i written that for any beginner who haven't sufficiently knowledge for making AP safely and who may read the
thread.
_________________________
vulture June 19th, 2003, 07:35 AM

I thought I'd use 100% to start with as there is an assumed 100% in the reaction scheme. So how would I go about altering
the density of H2O2. Would finding the density of 25% H2O2 (1.1g/mL) and finding that then x it by 4 as 25% is a quater of
100%?
I don't know what the problem is all you people are having with calculating amounts from densities, all it takes is some
common sence.
For example, say you have a 25% H2O2 solution. This solution contains 25% H2O2 by weight, so volume calculation is NOT
accurate.
So you have calculated how many moles you need and from there how many grams.
Now, assume you need 10g of H2O2. Since your solution is 25% you'll need 10 + (10/25)*75 = 40g of your H2O2 solution.
You know it has a density of 1.1g/ml, so 40/1.1 = 36,36ml of your H2O2 solution.
Simple as that.

Ok thanks for that vulture, I mean we all have to learn sometime.
Arthis June 22nd, 2003, 10:44 AM

For H2O2 density, take my PDF, or go on h2o2.com and you'll get the density function of the concentration.
I let my AP dry in the sun, actually this is not very dangerous as there was only 30 g. Once is enough to change one's mind,
but having never had any problems with AP, I think I will making the AP dry in the sun. Not in the sun for long btw, when it's
quasi dry I remove it. It's when dry that the risks are the most important.

synthetise : synthesize
absord : absorb
personnal : personal
monthes : months
And i think instead of h.p you should say H2O2 because symbols are here to abbreviate:D
And catalysts should be written on the reaction-arrow

No one likes a smart ass... especially one who is new... I'm sure you meant the best but it sounds like your being one. Also its
not possible to write the catalysts below the arrows with this BB.

I mean catalysts blabla for the PDF and i'm trying to be helpful
EDIT: Am i doing something wrong?:confused:

inFinie, you worded your post in such a fashion that it sounded like you were being a smart ass. it sounds like you're being
overly picky.
whether you meant to sound like a smart ass or not that isn't the issue. try and word your posts more carefully in future.

synthesize = synthesise
:)

Ahh smart ass mods whatever shall we do *runs in terror*:eek:
Halo July 1st, 2003, 01:24 AM

I have seen sooo many diferent VoD's for Ap that I am just getting confused now. does anyone really know for sure what the
VoD is? And if so, how do you know? How do they test new explosives to find the VoD for it?
Thank you

sorry about this but i have another borring question for all you experts.
What is the storge life of Ap if kept in distilled water in a glass jar?
Also, what is the reaction (if any) with brass. I want to make detonators using spent 270win casings.
Thx again-halo

You should edit your posts instead of posting twice in a such short time interval.
I use 'h.p.' because when you always use the symbol H2O2 it's getting boring to read. But no real importance.
Normally your AP can be stored for long in water, I don't know exactly. You know I store it in an open container... No problems
yet. (i just lose a little product, and it makes larger cristals --> no long term storage for me). In water, if you keep it away
from light, as H2O2 it should not decompose a lot. The main problem you could get in my mind is a lost of product. You see.
If your AP is well washed, with no acid traces, there won't be any important reaction with copper.
I guess though, that you may get
AP + 3 Cu --> 3 CuO + 3 acetone
with the peroxyde decomposition. But this would be a very slow reaction.
Anyway I advise you to make small quantities at beginning, before trying to make several hundred grams. And use your
detonator readily after confectionning them.

Thank you for your info. It has helped. Im going to make a very small amount my first time.(use about 75ml of 3% hp)
sorry about not editing my posts. Im new here and havent yet learned how to do everything.
Im using 3% hp. obviously Ill have less Ap but will it be weaker?
I cant just stick a metal thermometer in the solution so how do I check the temp? I will be keeping it in a very cold ice/salt
bath for about 4 hours during/after mixing chems. is this long enough?
and finaly, do I have to keep the Ap cold while in storage? I happy about storing a film canister amount of Ap in my bedroom
in a glass jar. thats like a small claymore mine! I want to keep it outside under a tree or in a lil wooden box I have made for
it.
knowledgehungry July 1st, 2003, 01:24 PM

I believe the detonation velocity for TATP is around 5000meters per second, however you never get pure TATP so it is normally
somewhat lower.
Anthony July 1st, 2003, 03:22 PM

Don't use metals, as you will get side reactions and contaminents!
A glass thermometer is commonly available and will do for both temperature checks and stiring.
AP doesn't need to be kept cold in storage, although it will reduce sensitivity a bit and lower the rate at which the AP volitises.
Halo July 1st, 2003, 04:47 PM

ok thanks for the info. I didnt have a stiring rod so i just stole a glass thermometer from my neihbors porch(hes on vacation)
what kind of case should i use for my detonators? (small glass ones would look so kool) :)
Arthis July 1st, 2003, 05:22 PM

Pure AP is pure AP, and if you make it with 3% hp will not change anything. Once washed you'll get the same product than if
made with 30%.
If it's your first time, use it instead of storing it, it's so great the first time, when you're not blased of it yet. ;)
When neutralized, AP can be used in any casing, as long as you don't store it. Empty shells are often used. Glass is ok,
though the confinment will be lower, and it's normally harder to get, more expensive. You have the choice.
yt2095 July 28th, 2003, 10:46 AM

this may or maynot be usefull to someone.
in the persuit of alternative peroxides I`de read MANY times about Ether (di-Ethyl ether) making some rather nasty peroxides
if left standing or exposed to UV light. as of yet I`ve not managed to manufacture any :(
while "fucking about" this morning I found that ether will infact dissolve quite happily in acetone :)
SO... thought I, lets add a little 30% H2O2 and see what happens.
it splits again like oil on water :(
now I have to wait until it evaporates and try salvage something usefull from it (probably more AP :( )
I figure since we learn just as much from our mistakes as sucesses that it would be worthy to post this.
I`ve tried in the past the UV method, still nothing? and ether won`t work as a cheap solvent for AP or HMTD either thus saving
on acetone :(
Life`s a Bitch!
can`t wait to see if my Hexamine Borate crystalises though, will it burn green or won`t it????
knowledgehungry July 28th, 2003, 11:08 AM

All you have to do to manufacture some di-ethyl ether peroxide is leave it in the sun for a week or so, then distill the di-ethyl
ether off, or maybe just let it evaporate off, but DONT DO IT. Not very powerfull IIRC and extremely sensitive. No use for it
save perhaps as a touch sensitive explosive.
Evan007 August 13th, 2003, 04:43 AM

I have 400mls of 6% H.P. and 750mls of Acetone, no acids except for citric acid, the crystals that come in little containers like
salt and pepper. How much citric acid will i (fictionally) use to how much acetone and peroxide? i have no real way of having
this all cooled ( its winter here and the nights are around 5 degrees) other than the winter ambiantair temp how much of a
problem will this be ( will it make dimer instead of trimer ?) ?
very sorry but this is my first go at AP
DBSP August 13th, 2003, 05:03 AM

Haven't you got any ice?? can't be to hard to get.
Citric acid will as I remember it not work, your choise of acid is HCl, run a few internet searches and you must be able to find
some. Wherever you live, try pool accesory stores or hardware stores. Use the search egine (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
search.php?s=) and your questions will be answerd as AP has been covered in all possible aspects by now.
And at last, use 6 times as much acetone as pure H2O2 and about 10% acid (10% of total ammount of reactants that is)
Arthis August 13th, 2003, 05:27 AM

I can't find the info with a search, but I remember some tests had been done about using a low acid as citric acid in TCAP
production, and I think it worked, though a little slower. I'll look for some information.
Evan007, I made a pdf for beginners, like you, and there's a table in, you have the ratios to use with 6% H2O2. I suggest you
take a look.
fasa August 13th, 2003, 09:58 AM

I don't really know if this will work, its just a theory... I'm really not experienced with this enough to know for sure...
Would it be possible to add AN while making AP to keep the reaction cool?

I'm pretty sure it will have some effects on the AP, but I have no idea which...
kingspaz August 13th, 2003, 10:50 AM

it'll have no effect on the AP but it will dissolve and cool the solution as you said. an alternative to an ice bath i suppose.
tri-x August 13th, 2003, 02:39 PM

Earlier in this thread ...
Originally posted by Arthis
You should try to get th e trimer form, as it s a lso more powerful, and for that yo u need to keep the reaction the coo lest
possible.You may have noticed that the acid is not present in the equation: it only acts as a catalyst.
Acid used
]The acid acts as a catalyst and about any acid can be used in AP synthesis. Citric acid and sulfuric acid are also commonly
used but some differences can be noted, and must be taken into account.
Sulfuric acid: adding it will cause immediately a local overheating and ebullition. You must add it drop-by-drop. A good
solution to avoid a temperature elevation is to dilute your acid and let it cool (e.g. from 95+ % to 30%).
Hydrochloric acid: easy to get, it may be the best suited acid in this synthesis, regarding to its low cost. It is safer too, as
pouring the whole acid at once in the mix will not cause (even local) ebullition or overheating; however, the global temp of
the mix will rise th us favoring the formation of the dimer, or even producing tear gas. Don t forg et that it s e asie r to keep the
reaction cool than cooling it down once the temperature has raised.
Citric acid: this is not a strong acid, but it works well too. The main interest, excepted the ease in keeping the reaction cool, it
that it s way easier to wash the AP and make it neutral, co mpared with th e use of stro ng acids.
kingspaz August 13th, 2003, 04:38 PM

whats your point tri-x?
about my post above. i just realised that its not the best idea because with stronger acids you'll end up with a solution of
HNO3 which could react adversly with AP.
knowledgehungry August 13th, 2003, 06:12 PM

HNO3 makes AP go boom;) . In my very beginning days I tried to nitrate AP with rather loud results:D. I'm not sure how much
of a problem NH4NO3 and Citric or HCL would be, as their equilibrium favors HCl and citric rather than HNO3, but still not a
good idea to be adding any more impurities to an already sensitive and impure explosive.
Blackhawk August 13th, 2003, 06:37 PM

I didn't want to start a new thread but I am planing on an AP batch soon and I was going to convert it to putty to lessen the
evapouration and stabalise it (as much as is possible with AP) but I am a little concerned about kneading AP crystals in with
NC, are there any particular precautions I should take or would the acetone in the NC laquer desensetise/disolve the AP while
you are mixing.

Just dont knead it with a hammer:p. It is fairly safe to knead as long as you dont have big crystals and its just made.
Blackhawk August 14th, 2003, 04:18 AM

Ok thanksfor that, I just didn't want to loose some fingers (who does) and there isn't much said on the net about the
sensetivity during preparation.

OK last night i dreamed that i mixed up 150mls of 6%HP and 50mls Acetone added some citric and let be for 20 hours. no
crystals of any kind. added more citric acid and is waiting for results
scarletmanuka August 14th, 2003, 07:27 AM

I made my first batch of AP last weak, and since then I have made over a kilo of it. I can't get enough of it. I use 50%h2o2
and 100% acetone with 30%HCl. The first batch I made, I filled the beaker three quarters of the way up with reactants, and
had crystals pouring out of the beaker into the icebath within half an hour. However, using the same conc. h2o2 and acetone
with citric or acetic, I was unable to produce any AP at all, even after 24 hours. I used about 30ml h2o2 and 50ml acetone with
up to six teaspoons citric (I started of with two). I also used the same proportions and added thirty ml vinegar, and neither
gave any yield. However the solution did turn cloudy un addition of acid (some AP formed?).
PS This morning while rushing to get to school, i added the HCl before the solution had cooled down enough, and got a
runaway reaction. The beaker started boiling over and HCl gas was emmited (painful on eyes) it was a disaster, and the final
yeild was not as good as expected.

You made your first batch of AP a weak ago and since then you've made over a kg of it. If I where you I'd definately slow
things down a bit, AP is simple but dangerous. You shouldn't make any greater ammounts untill you've got to know it and
trust me, you don't get to know AP from dealing with it for only a weak. Lets just all hope you carefully neutralize it and keep
the reaction below 10* C, which isn't very easy with the reactants you are using.
Take my advice and slow things down right now before something happens!!!

I am officially with Scarletmanuka - CITRIC ACID DOESNT WORK ! quite frustrating considering the waste of time, money
chemicals etc being 15 makes it hard to go out and buy the required chemicals to do this sorta stuff without parents
knowing.......man i have some messed up dreams :)
Arthis August 18th, 2003, 11:04 AM

I'll do experiments again, but I'll suppress citric acid from the list for the moment.
btw, does anyone know how to edit a pdf ? The fact is I formatted my computer last week and forgot to save the sources, so I
end up with only the pdf, on the website. Anyway I could modify it (and keep sources for further modifications) ?
thanks
Desmikes August 18th, 2003, 11:56 AM

Yeah a kilo of AP is a little much, I leaarned about AP from some "magic tricks site" and I had myself some "magic" after
lighting a pile ~3cm in diameter with a match and not being able to hear for the rest of the day..! Getting down to business
A while back there was a thread discussing various aspects of AP's sensitivity, and as I remember someone tried to initiate it
with a spark and found it extremely difficult, well i've had the same results up untill I crushed my AP down to tiny bits (it
doesn't take much pressure don't worry) and then was able to set it off with an electric spark. What's even better is that I kept
on reducing the power of a spark up until I found out that a simple, tiny spark-maker thing from regular electric lighters is
plenty to set it off when it is in this form. I thought of some possible applications such as impact ignition/landmine etc. My AP
was prepared safely i.e. in a temperature controlled enviroment, washed throughtly and treated with baking soda so it should
be relatiely stable.
So there is a possibility of a static ignition afterall...
Another strange property of AP is that unlike most white things it doesn't stick out in black light, it's just black.

On the subject of ways to ignite AP, I had some 0.2 grams of caked AP "pebbles" and was looking at ways of igniting them,
and thought that it was getting a bit boring lighting them with a lighter on the end of a knife (nice fireball, but it doesn't det).
So I tried heating up a long peice of wire, and then touched it to the pebble, rather amusing except when everyone is
sleeping.
EDIT: the wire was not glowing
Another idea I had to get tiny mounts to det, is to put a pile of AP about the size of a apple seed (to small to weigh) onto a
piece of Alfoil, and heat from underneath with a bunsen burner. It willd et and drill aperfect hole through at least four pieces of
Alfoil provided they are not loose.
PS You are all right; One kilo of AP is way to much, but at about $15 Australian per kilo, it is hard to slow down. I needed to
dump about half a kilo down the drain, because i felt unsafe about soring it in the shed.

half a kilo down the drain?
what the fucks wrong with you? thats the most fucking stupid thing i've heard for a LONG time!
for one, you make way too much AP to be even resonably safe.
two, you dump half a kilo of it down a drain. why the hell do you think AP mames so many people? its because they haven't a
FUCKING CLUE what they are doing.
don't think you're clever because you can make AP. as you know, babies can make it. the clever bit is doing it safely. no
please, for your sake and ours stop making explosives of any sort until you have atleast some idea what you are doing.
Anthony August 19th, 2003, 03:11 PM

I agree. Your drain is now likely to be an extreme explosion hazard - AP is not water soluble.
The reason the AP you poked with a hot wire detonated, would be that the deflagerating AP the wire touched would have been
confined by both the wire and the AP mass, thus allowing a deflageration to detonation transition.
T_Pyro August 19th, 2003, 04:31 PM

From my initial experiments with AP, I found it pretty unstable when placed in heaps/mounds, or even when confined in closed
places (a fusion tube, for example). Through experimentation, I came across a few ways of making ap slightly safer. Here are
a few methods of doing so:
1. AP strips: AP in mounds or heaps tends to be much more sensitive, and quite unsafe, to say the least. To make matters
worse, trying to remove ap crystals from dry surfaces tends to lead to er, "unpleasant" results. Therefore, just as the ap was
almost dry, I poured the ap and remaining acetone "slurry" on double-layered strips of tissue paper, and left them to dry
completely. This prevented the formation of any dangerously large crystals or heaps. The ap strips so formed could then be
comaratively safely ignited.
2. My first few casings for ap were fashioned out of fusion tubes (the chem lab seems to have an unlimited supply of them ;-)
). Though readily available, they had one major problem, especially when using an AP + Ammonium Nitrate mixture: shrapnel
formation. Thus, to limit the formation of shrapnel, I reinforced the tubes with about 4-5 layers of insulating tape. The results
were pretty good: there was a definite explosion, but fewer shrapnel pieces... The glass pieces had a tendency to stick
together on the tape!
3. Although I've never tried this one, but it's still a suggestion to those who feel the need to store ap. AP volatizes pretty fast
at room temperatures, leading to the formation of large, dangerous crystals around the mouth of the container. Why not cover
the AP crystals in the container with a layer of water, to prevent the ap from subliming? The moisture will also keep the
compound cooler.
Arthis August 19th, 2003, 04:49 PM

And this transition from deflagration to detonation can occur if you use much explosive, depending on the critical mass of the
explosive.
That's why it's not recommended to handle large AP quantities. 1 kg of AP that self ignite will achieve detonation. Don't even
hope to be only burnt. You could thank God if you survived.
It's fun to handle large quantities, and I like it too. But you need a little experience before.
Storing AP has been previously discussed, but AP is not soluble in water, and does not sink, therefore you can't make a layer
of water over the AP.
But storing the jar upside down will do the trick.

Um... 1 kg?!? That much AP, if strategically placed, would be enough to bring down an entire building!
------------------------------
No Shit Sherlock! :rolleyes: - zaibatsu

T_pyro, stop wasting forum space with garbage posts.
Efraim_barkbit August 19th, 2003, 07:38 PM
I wanted to try making a fireball with some AP a night last week, I put a little more than a teaspoon in a plastick coke bottle
cap, with a couple of cm of fuse inserted through a hole in the side.
But instead of the fireball that I expected, it detonated without even the slightest flash (at least I didnt notice any..) Probably
the AP that ignited by the fuse got enough confinement by the AP on top of it, and the walls of the cap, to make d-d..
I think this is important to remember for people who stores their AP in small amounts in open containers, that just because it
is only a few grams, and stored "unconfined",it still can make the d-d transition.
Of course, if the same amount AP is stored on for example a plate or in other "low walled" and wide containers, the risk of the
AP making the d-d transition decreases.
T-pyro, what do you mean by that you found it extremely unstable? spontaneous iginition? more sensitive to shock/friction?
If your AP is mixed with "acetone slurry", does that means that you take it directly from the reaction jar to dry it without
washing it? in that case youd have more like a "acid, acetone and/or hydrogen peroxide slurry".(if you havent used calculated
and exact amounts of acetone and HP, and let it sit until all crystals precipitated(sp?) out, in wich case youd only have a "acid
slurry").
From what Ive read, unwashed AP is supposed to be a lot more sensitive, so thats maybee your problem (I once compared a
unwashed and a washed sample from the same batch by doing the "put AP on a anvil-hit with hammer" test, but I noticed no
difference in shock sensitivity. Of course, this may vary between batches)
Ohh, and IMO, it would have to be a small and shitty building if one kg of AP would be sufficient in taking it down. but I have
no experience in building demolitions, so I might be wrong..
That brings a question to my mind: has anyone here tried to/succeded in taking down some kind of building with explosives?
T_Pyro August 20th, 2003, 03:00 AM

kingspaz, I'm sorry if you didn't like my post, but my intention was not to "waste forum space with garbage posts", but to just
share some ways of making ap safer, so that the rest of us can live longer.
Anyway, Efraim_barkbit, yes, I meant that the ap was more prone to shocks and higher temperatures- once I had a small
batch of it go off when the fuse hadn't even completely burned out! Luckily, I was some distance away from it by then...
Regarding the "slurry" I spoke of, I had taken calculated amounts of peroxide (6% w/v) and acetone, with 40 ml of o.1 M HCl.
If I'm just makin fine ap crystals, I wash it with distilled water, followed by washing soda. However, the instability of the pure
ap I get always seems to be more or less the same whether or not it is washed. Dunno why... I keep the reaction mixture
refrigerated during the precipitation process , so I don't think much of the dimer is formed.
In the above process, I think the peroxide and acetone reacted completely, but I had no way of making sure, though...
Although the HCl, as many say, is just a catalyst, but I believe it could be more than just that. I've been working on some
possible reaction mechanisms for the formation of ap, which I'll post if they're plausible enough. The H+ ions from the acid
seem to be "used up" by the reaction, which could be detected by the measurement of Ph before and after the completion of
the reaction.

Using the ap strips I desrcibed before, I managed to create some flame "tongues" as the ap deflagrated on the tissue paper
base. There wasn't any proper "boom", but there were upto 5cm long flame tongues, and a loud "poof"! I haven't tried it yet,
but the ap strips, if rolled into a tube and then ignited, could produce a "flame tube". A fireball might be more difficult,
though... -Ways to experiment on my next batch of ap!
knowledgehungry August 20th, 2003, 11:00 AM

I would use a fuse for all your tests, in case it does DDT. I have lit about .02 grams of AP with a match, it DDT and i felt like
someone hit my fingers with a ruler. Always be prepared that AP WILL DETONATE AT THE MOST INOPPURTUNE TIME. Prepare
for the worst and you keep most of your fingers.

Well, yeah, a fuse WOULD be a good idea. DDT takes place more easily with pure AP than with the ap strips, and the fuse
would help in the controlled deflagration of the same.
Desmikes August 20th, 2003, 02:44 PM

the safest way to store your AP is by letting it dry and remain on your piece of handkerchief or cardboard in some dark cool
place. this way you never have to shit your pants when you open up the container and it doesn't recrystalize; after weeks of
keeping my AP this way I haven't noticed any lowered sensitivity as far as hammering goes. Yes it does evaporate but if you
care so much about that then use it up quicker ;)
T-pyro that idea of yours about rolling up AP in napkins shouldn't be followed up upon, first of all it is too likely to det 2nd
what's the point? 5cm flames - please.
And for all of those who are sending your AP down the drain, next time just sprinkle it all out evenly on the concrete and run a
line of AP to it and set it all off at once, you don't have to go out into the wilderness to do that.

Why would soaking the AP/acetone solution in tissue paper elminate the formation of large crystals? Surely the obvious thing
is not to use a solvent that AP is soluble in? Then there will be no crystalisation at all (after the intial formation in the reaction
vessel).
BTW, don't make posts one after the other, use the edit feature to add the information to the first post.
DBSP August 20th, 2003, 04:59 PM

I always store my AP on a piece of paper in the open on a shef that is hard to reach by accident. Any AP that sublimes will
have about 70 cubic meters to recrystalize into so there are no problems with any vessels getting AP crystalized in the threads
or at any other non-good location.
If you can store it in the open and just put it away safely in a locked closet or something similar so that noone can get to it.

T_Pyro, i was refering to the utterly useless post by you directly above my post warning you.

Well, leaving the reaction mixture to dry in its own vessel (or any other vessel, for that matter), I invariably ended up with
clumps of crystals sometimes upto 1.5 cm long. Using the tissue paper method prevents the crystals from getting too long
and sticking out of the paper. It also prevents the piling up of the ap, which would have led to detonation in case of any
accident. While the ap is crystalising from the reaction mixture, there is bound to be some amount of unreacted acetone,
unless of course the acid and peroxide were in excess, in which case there would be formation of bubbles of oxygen
everywhere. (not a good environment for explosive materials, I think, though tell me if I'm wrong...)
I've never tried this one before, so could some one advise on this: If ap is mixed with AN, and filled into a medicinal gelatin
capsule, how hard, and from what height should it be thrown in order to detonate? Should I include some inert "packing"
material (talcum powder, maybe) to lower the concentration of this powder?
What is the best way to transport about 2gm of ap? Will the method I mentioned earlier (using a water layer on top of the ap)
be safe enough?
Nevermore August 21st, 2003, 05:58 AM

well you can transport it wet, or under water, that should be safe enough, or you can dissolve it in acetone and transport like
that..
you can also transport under ethanol for faster drying.
is up to you, altought is not safe to go around with primaries, i dun think there should be problems if you DUN bring on
yourself.
Efraim_barkbit August 21st, 2003, 07:32 AM

If you are transporting your AP to a blast site, then it wouldnt be practical to have to wait many hours for the AP to dry, would
it? if transporting such small amounts as 2g, then you shouldnt be too worried.
for transporting larger amounts, wich you are not going to use immediatley, wet it a little bit so that all of it gets a little bit
moist, then it should be fine.
You should put a small amount of your AP in a container, and then go and throw it around for a while, to get a idea about the
senitivity. I have put AP in 5cm lengths of a plastic pen, but I couldnt get it to detonate. (of course, always throw up and away
from you, never straight down;) )
If jou want a impact detonated fire cracker, test putting AP between two coins, and throw on a hard surface. just watch out for
the flying coins.
I doubt that you can manage to get that gelatine capsule with APAN to detonate by throwing it.
why not put your wet AP between the pages in a news paper to dry? then youd have no clumps to worry about.
I didnt think about it before, but how can your AP be more unstable if you put it in a "heap" than if you put it in a "line"? its
properties wont change just because the shape changes.
Its up to you if you dont want to wash your AP, But think about it, is it worth to take that extra chance just to save a couple
of minutes?
knowledgehungry August 21st, 2003, 09:30 AM

I think he meant that his AP makes the DDT easier in a heap, which is true because when AP is in a heap it adds self
confinement.
Anthony August 21st, 2003, 02:56 PM

"leaving the reaction mixture to dry in its own vessel"
Do you mean that you mix the reactants (H2O2, acetone, catalyst), allow the AP to precipitate, and then let the liquid
evaporate leaving the AP?
Desmikes August 21st, 2003, 10:23 PM

it is simply impossible to throw a gel capsule filled with APAN hard enough to make it detonate. Don't even bother trying to use
AP alone with this method. I don't know about using coins either, first of all how are you gonna keep them together and
collapse at the same time, how are you gonna throw them... not very reliable. However this one works wonders: you take a
piece of wide sticky tape and run a line of AP that's about 10 cm long and 1.5 cm wide on it. then you fold the tape to make
the ends meet i.e. to have a 10 cm strip of AP now imbedded in your tape. All you gotta do now is take this baby and wrap it
around a big ass bolt nut. (the bigger the better). Fix it in place with yet another piece of tape. Done. SAFE and reliable no
shrapnel (the nut doesn't really go anywhere b/c AP is all around it). They travel very far and WILL explode if it hits a building/
paved road/tree/car not ground though.
Cyclonite August 22nd, 2003, 03:44 AM

Does the AP around the nut explode or was the AP deflagrated. I was just thinking you could modify a lawn dart by drilling the
tip and putting a pin of some sort through it then having it strike a metal plate with AP on it while having the ap in the main
body of the hollowed out weight in the front. You could also weld, glue or epoxy a little disc on the pin and put a spring
between the disc and the metal surface with the AP. That would serve as a saftey and make sure the pin has enough distace
to strike the AP. It would make an interesting game of lawn darts.
Blackhawk August 22nd, 2003, 04:51 AM

Yeah, you could gain extra points for not getting your legs full of shrapnel :D
I thought it would be fun to try AP putty moulded into tips of darts, it wouldn't matter if your opponant scored really well
because you could blow their dart off the board, you'd waste a lot of boards though. I think it was EP on another forum that
said you could make AP putty more sensetive by mixing in fine sand as you are making it.
Efraim_barkbit August 22nd, 2003, 06:19 AM

Of course the coins will be taped together... , but I think your Idea is the better(cheaper too)
AP detonates when set off by shock, and if it wouldnt, it will still make DDT because its confined.
What about making "balls" with AP putty and throw them?
Arthis August 22nd, 2003, 03:51 PM

They wouldn't detonate every time, it's not very stable but not totally unstable. Moreover in the NC laque only the cristals at
the surface may detonate the whole ball because the cristals inside are protected by the laque which is pretty strong;
particularly as drying a ball would so much time to get off all the acetone in the middle that the ball would be really hard. It's
confinment, but also protect the cristal from rubbing together.
T_Pyro August 23rd, 2003, 02:14 PM

If you want to make sure that the AP projectile detonates on impact no matter how hard, or what it hits, why not use 1 or 2
crystals of NI3 to set it off? OK, I know NI3's straight from hell, but if you could Prepare the NI3 just before use (when you're
gonna chuck it), there'd be nothing like it!! Just carry a small flask of liquor NH3 and a few Iodine beads. About half an hour
before (using the ap), just mix the two real well, tape 3 layers of tissue paper on the ap projectile, and pour the mixture on
the tissue paper. Leave to dry, and as soon as it's more or less dry, chuck it at anything you want to (just be careful!! ;) ). If
you tape the tissue paper strategically, then the entire ap projectile will go off on inpact. I've noticed that when the NI3 is
almost dry (the paper should be just moist), it is reasonably stable, yet goes off as expected on impact.
DBSP August 23rd, 2003, 05:16 PM

T-Pyro, get that stupid fucking idea out of your head!! NI3 and AP is really asking for trouble.
I really think you should start using your brains, just a tip as I feel your stay here might be ending soon if you don't shape up.
In other words no more NI3+AP or the alike.
knowledgehungry August 23rd, 2003, 07:37 PM

I think the idea of NI3 anything is a horribly stupid idea, also im not so much worried about your presence on this forum
staying as your presence on this earth staying if you continue treating explosives like novelty items. If you want |<3\/\/!_
impact firecrakers buy some snappers from your local toy store...

OK, I guess NI3 + AP was a bad idea, going by the reaction I got! Sorry.
Anybody tried mixing AP with any other primary explosives? Does it neccesarily make the mixture more unstable? I've got a
few gms of AN, but require a primary mixture to detonate it... Any suggestions as to what primary explosive I could use for
that? I don't have access to, nor can I make TNT.
knowledgehungry August 24th, 2003, 01:18 AM

Mix some AP with AN then either detonate it with an AP cap or make the mixture flame sensitive, dont ask how to mix AP and
AN or what ratios to use or what to set it off with, do a search for "APAN" and you will find everything you need. I am not going
to answer anymore of your questions until you search first.

Thanks for the info, but I was talking about ways to modify the basic APAN mixture, in order to provide reliable detonation.
I've used a 60% ap, 40% an mixture before, but I don't think it detonated properly. My casing was fashioned out of the Zn
metal casing of a dry cell, reinforced with tin strips. The AN was towards the bottom of the casing, and the AP above it. The
explosion didn't seem loud enough for a true APAN mixture. Another major problem with the APAN is that the AN is extremely
deliquescent, so it tends to draw moisture, reducing the efficiency. To prevent this, I had dried the AN in a silica gel dessicator,
and moistened it with acetone before filling it into the casing to prevent it from absorbing moisture, Could this have been the
reason for the failure?
IPN August 24th, 2003, 04:41 AM

The AN was towards the bottom of the casing, and the AP above it.
You have to mix the AP and AN well, in order for the APAN to work..:rolleyes:
PasstheDutch September 12th, 2003, 06:27 PM

Arthis, thnx for the Starter guide, nice .PDF.
I'm planning to make some AP soon, but i've searched this forum, and wind up with very much variations in quantities and
stuff. This is probably because of the very various locations op people who synth AP. Since i live in The Netherlands, is there
anyone in Holland who can tell me which chems they use and where they buy it ?
Thnx in advance,
Pass thee Dutchie
Desmikes September 13th, 2003, 06:02 PM

T_pyro man, if you are planning on making any more posts on this topic - DON'T! The more you write the more retarded you
seem. If you were to read ANY posts on APAN you would know that nobody in their right mind would ever "dry the AN in a silica
gel dessicator, mix it with acetone, put some AP on top" and call it APAN. If you are using 60%AP you don't have to give a fuck
about AN being hydroscopic unless you are going to store it. You don't even have to have finely-ground up AN for a mixture
like that.
As far as variations in m ethods of mak ing AP go, that s just a proof th at you cannot mess it up. (it is usually d ue to pe ople
either using different conc. of components or trying to speed up the reaction)
T_Pyro September 14th, 2003, 01:43 AM

PasstheDutch, sorry for the "retarded" post... I'd got mixed up with some schematics of "booster stages" that I'd been looking
up. Coming back to the deliquecsent bit: All the articles I've read so far state that AN is "extremely hygroscopic", but none
that I've read, state how to tackle this problem, or even if the absorbed moisture is going to interfere. Either way, no matter
how the AN is used, I invariably end up getting a layer of water on top the next day- quite a bother.
I know this is getting kind of off-topic, but it's a reply to a previous post...
Cyclonite September 14th, 2003, 09:19 AM

Layer of water huh? Might there have been some rain when you left it outside? You should think about things before you say
them, its just good advice. How do you dry your shirts after a wash, put them in a low humidity high heat environment ie..drier.
Before you throw AN in the drier I was just using it as an example of how to think things through and put your ideas together.
Booster stage? Its not a rocket, think of it as an avalanche. You cant move a tremendous amount of snow just like that, throw
a snowball that collects more snow (energy) and in turn collects even more to cause the avalanche. In general the higher the
sensitivity the lower the power and the lower the sensitivity the higher the power
T_Pyro September 14th, 2003, 01:40 PM

Yes, it DID rain, but I didn't leave the AN outside, so the rain couldn't have possibly collected. It's the weather: in the
monsoons, there's no such thing as a "drier" environment... Only moist, moister (if there's any such word), and downright wet.
Thanks, I got my mistake about "boosters": feelin pretty stupid now, but hey, I'm learnin, that's what I'm here for! ;)

Drier environment=Oven
bobo September 15th, 2003, 10:50 AM

Dutch: acetone can be found everywhere, try the apothecary. HCl used to be at the Gamma. I used sulfuric since I have it in
large amounts but HCl is better. you use a base to neutralize, I advise soda from the supermarket though you can use
anything.
There is a brand called Tendo that has acetone and H2O2 (3%) for apothecaries, and there are online sellers. Getting 30%
peroxide is not hard at all though I have only acquired this through online store and perhaps you prefer anonimity.
If you want to have additional info just send me an email. (you'll find my email in my profile).

Desmikes : Ok thnx, i'm buying the chems this week so when i know the concentrations i'll post them here (this IS an AP-
beginners-thread right :)?) and then maybe somebody here can tell me wat kind of ratio's to use based on their experiences?
Bobo: thnx vriend, i sent u an e-mail..
- another question : whats a "safe amount of AP-yield" to start with? I was thinking of about 5-10gms (not a Kg like that crazy
kid i've seen :D)
Any suggestions?
dutch..
DBSP September 15th, 2003, 06:09 PM

The ratios are all over this place. Just run a search like everyone else. The answer is out there..
It's impossible to tell you how much reactant to use for a given ammount of AP to be formed unless we know the konc of you
chems, Get back when you know the koncentrations and we'll try to help you then.

I did run multiple searches and found many different ratio's that makes it a bit confusing.
But i'll get the conc.'s asap, so ima post them here.
thnx for the goodwill :)

But i'll get the conc.'s asap, so ima post them here.
thnx for the goodwill
Bobo: thnx vriend, i sent u an e-mail..
Use proper grammer or get the fuck out of here. "U" is not a substitute for "You", nor "i" for "I", got it? :mad:
And leave that "dutch" crap out of the bottom of your posts!
Did you think that maybe the reasons for all the different ratios is because they all work? AP is ridiculously easy to make, and
very tolerant of varying ratios.

Ok, I get the message. I was just trying to prevent me from blowing my fingers or something else of, this being the beginners
guide, excuse me for mistaking. I'm not some punk 12 year old, not trying to annoy anyone but just asking advise.
metafractal September 23rd, 2003, 08:22 AM

Someone said something about making fireballs with AP.
A while back I played around with AP/napthalene.
The first thing that I tried was putting a layer of napthalene on top of a layer of AP. When lit, however, the deflagrating AP
simply threw off the napthalene, not igniting it at all.
Then I tried mixing the two together in a 1:1 ratio.
Only some of the napthalene ignites, but gave noticably more body than a pure AP fireball.
Very unscientific, but good, cheap, easy fun.
A video of it can be found here (http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/alt2/pyro/index.html) (sorry, large file / bad quality.). The
whowle mixture was ~10-20g.
EDIT: Apologies, link fixed.
DBSP September 23rd, 2003, 09:40 AM

I'm afraid that the video is not avalible at that adress. The adress is linked to an .AVI but there is no file at the target
location. Have a look at it and see if you can correct the problem.
Nevermore September 23rd, 2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by bobo
Dutch: acetone can be found everywhere, try the apothecary. HCl used to be at the Gamma. I used sulfuric since I have it in
large amounts but HCl is better. you use a base to neutralize, I advise soda from the supermarket though you can use
anything.
I
Well you should be able to find acetone at any hardware store, better if has a paint department, since acetone is a good paint
solvant, it is cheap and you usually find in metal can around one liter (at least here). HCL could be found in the muriatic acid
for toilet cleaning, however will be around 10% hcl, no problem, just use more, it is usually sold in plastic bottles at
supermarket or house dept, cheap too.
Sulfuric acid can be found at home depot as disgorgant and plumbing cleaner, rather concentrated, around 90-92%, and
cheap too, however most of the time is in a jello form, or black in colour, works anyway...
About the H2O2 the best source is H2O2 for hair colour, you can find at 60vol=15% in big and cheap bottles, just give a look
at hair distributors or big coifeeur reseller..
bobo September 23rd, 2003, 04:30 PM

H2O2 is sold in 100l package (30% H2O2) at a hydroponics store here. It is sold by several online shops in the Netherlands. It
amazes me why people keep going on about hair whitener. Is it really that hard in some countries? I will start a mail order
company if that's the case;)
Nevermore September 23rd, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by bobo
H2O2 is sold in 100l package (30% H2O2) at a hydroponics store here. It is sold by several online shops in the Netherlands. It
amazes me why people keep going on about hair whitener.
Well i don't think that 15% h2o2 is so bad after all, i didn't bother to check at hydro because here is not common to see
hydro shop (neve r seen one), and also becaus e the ha ir whitener is damn cheap, around 1 for liter...
bobo October 8th, 2003, 09:01 AM

Today I dreamed about blastting a cap with ~3g of partially wet pressed AP in it to test shrapnel damage to nearby objects.
Especially, I compared damage with the AP cap with damage from firecrackers. This test is still inconclusive and I will also test
HMDT and dried AP. (so far, a .5mm aluminum casing glued tight on the cap was blasted ca 2 cm into furniture foam matress.
It was positioned horizontally over the matress, not in a hole.)
The detonation mechanism I wanted to try out was to put in a resistor and put it on 220V. This resistor was 2200 ohm so I
expected it to heat up and go boom.
Instead, the fragment of the resistor still attached to my wire was cold to the touch immediately after. The detonation took
place one second after I put the AC on but I don't trust the connector. So I reasoned it could have been a spark but more
likely there was moisture in the cap a few days after pressing it. What do you think could have been the cause?
How much will moisture decrease the power of AP anyway (so if it was moisture I'd have to repeat this particular charge)?
Cyclonite October 8th, 2003, 11:37 AM
Moisture will desensitize AP, it makes it harder to achieve a full true detonation. It may lessen the brisance of the AP but in a
way that would be hard to notice.
Efraim_barkbit October 8th, 2003, 08:33 PM

I Find AP to be much less powerful/sensitive when (if only slightly) wet. I havnt had it do the deflageration-detonation
transition once when not dry. Here are some experiences of mine with damp AP:
Damp AP in a pice of plastic pen casing (~0,5x50 mm) lit with fuse failed to burn completely with half of the AP left in the
partially intact casing, and damp AP wrapped in AL foil (2-3 cm^3 AP) made a fireball and a weak poff. A very clear
powerdecrease compared to the dry stuff...
Damp AP lit with a flame leaves wet, unburnt AP behind, wich often doesnt catch fire even if it is toucheed by naked flame
(Unless the flame is kept long enough for the AP to melt and detonate(a couple of secs.). a pice max 2x1x1 mm left me with
ringing ears for a couple of minutes, and blasted a 3-5mm hole through a 4-5 newspaperpages)
NBK mentioned in the "Danger AP" thread, that he had accidently set off a ounce of drying AP close enough so that the fireball
burnt his eyebrowns and hair. think about what would have happened if that AP had been dry...
I wanted to make a fireball once, and put half to one teaspoon of it in a coke bottle cap, and a few cm of fuse. I didnt even
see a flash of light, (could have missed it due to the unexpected BANG..) and it was almost pitch black when I set it off.
A teaspoon of loose AP, I guess thats ~2g. And NBK (accidently)set of almost fifteen times as much without d-d transition...
This is of course only my personal observations and conclusions on the subject, other people might have noticed other
behaviours, as AP is quite unpredictable
EDIT:
I start with low power hammerblows, and increase till I get detonation, that time, the AP became too dispersed due to
repeated blows so I didnt bother putting it back together for more tries, and it was also directly after washing, with only a
couple of hours of drying in a coffefilter. however, the force of the last blows were quite a bit more than for the dry powder.
that can also have been due to the hammer not hitting "right on".
I was tired when I wrote it, I realise that it doesnt tell that from the text so I took it away, it was only some last thoughts
added after the prewiew anyway...
Yes, the ~2g "unconfined" charge had in fact some confinement from the cap walls, but I still dont think that would make
that much of a difference compared to an ounce of the stuff. maybee it does, I dont really have the experience with
unconfined AP to tell.
The only other test I have done is if I recall correctly a test with a couple of teaspoons of damp AP in a shallow plastic
container( 4x4 cm, 1cm walls) were the AP burnt with a nice, big fireball.
Ill maybee try some next week with "real" unconfined AP, I have a filmcan left from the last batch, I might take it all or
varying smaller amounts.
Damn, I have quite a big load of different things that I want to try out sometime, ranging from blasting machine construction
to explosive projectiles and different types of improvised SCs, with the propellants and higher brisancy explosives involved.
I have already tested a few LSCs (with pressed AP), but on a small scale, nothing to hang in the christmas tree as we say in
Sweden, but at least it looks promising.
Off topic: If I edit a post of mine, will the time left to edit reset, or does it still count from the posting of the original
message?
Oh, Anthony,what do you mean by suspicious?

Your AP would have been partially confined by the sides of the coke bottle cap.
I get suspicious when people say they are unable to detonate AP with a hammer. Especially when relatively insensitive
secondaries can be detonated with a hammer blow.
knowledgehungry October 9th, 2003, 05:16 PM

I've noticed that many times my AP does not go off with the first hit, but thats because i hit it wrong, not straight on, when hit
correctly it always goes off.
Sir Dudalot October 9th, 2003, 09:41 PM

I don't see how people are having problems with making a fireball. I just set a gram or two, up to three, on a coffee filter or
piece of paper then light the paper/filter. When the fire gets to the AP it goes poof! and makes a neat fireball.
The first time I hit AP with a hammer I didn't use ear protection, it was about .1g. Now I always use ear protection. Compared
to nitroglycerin it seemed to take a slightly harder blow from a hammer. This could easily just be me though. The NG was
dropped into a cotton ball first so it'd be easier to hit.
0EZ0 October 9th, 2003, 11:28 PM

I agree that reports of insensitivity with AP are just a little bit suspicious. A while ago in the below post I made, I wrote
something about the varied results of impact tests.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=34686#post34686
It would be very hard to get consistent results from impact tests using a hammer and any variety of surfaces to place the
sample on. Crystal size of the sample, plus temperature and many other factors also influence the results. There is no
universal impact test apparatus/protocol that members to use. That would explain why we get people saying that they
'hammered all day' without having the test sample go off, whilst others say that they experienced quite the opposite and had
a sample of the same material detonate from a 2cm drop of a hammer.
Nothing springs to minds about how the 'professionals' determine impact sensitivity. There would have to be a set system
which they use. Just saying that something detonated from a 20cm drop of a 2kg weight still leaves alot of room for
inconsistency. Such as the surface area of the end of the ram that comes into contact with the sample? On what surface was
the sample placed on? What was the particle size of the test sample? So on and so forth.
After a bit of googling, there seems to be a few standard tests for impact sensitivity:
Impact Sensitivity Test Equipment by SMS (http://www.sms-ink.com/products_impact.html)

Google search for 'determining impact-sensitivity' (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-
8&q=determining+impact-sensitivity&meta=)

I'd imagine that there would be a recognised standard that these machines are built and used to. It would give all the specs
you'd require to construct a machine.
It's something that I've considered doing at some point in the future.

Does AP have a tendency to stick to everything, beakers, stiring rods... Or is this due to it still being moist?
I noticed that if you squish down the AP, it will detonate with the slight drop of a hammer on an anvil.
Nevermore October 15th, 2003, 06:35 PM

Well, wet AP tends to stick to glass rod and beckers, but you can wash it out easily with some water when you filter it. It will
stick as long as is wet, when is dry is absolutely not sticky like normal table salt, to detonate requires to be hit by an hammer
when dry, but the hit shouldn't be so light as most ppl think.
If yours is very sensitive i would suspect you got the di-form, since is what you mainly get when performing the reaction at
high temps (i'd perform at 5C or less).
Hang-Man October 15th, 2003, 06:35 PM

My AP is like wet powder; wash it off with more acetone.
I noticed that if you squish down the AP, it will detonate with the slight drop of a hammer on an anvil.
Really? How fun! DON'T DO IT AGAIN. Hitting explosives with hammers is K3WL, and dangerous..
Edit: damn people posting better replies than mine while I'm typing....Sorry if that came off hostile
Sir Dudalot October 15th, 2003, 10:17 PM

I've always found hitting various explosives with hammers to be a good thing. It gives you an idea of how sensitive it is.
Example: The AP I make takes an easier blow than the nitroglycerine that I made. Picric acid takes more than either. Just
take the proper precautions, ear and eye protection. Also, don't use very much at all. That's when you run into problems.
After my AP is dry it doesn't stick to anything. It acts just like any other powder except you should be gentle with it.

Well maybe i exagarated how sensitive it was, but before I hit it I pressed it hard with the hammer to experiment before
pressing it into the 9V cap. It wasnt really a slight drop of a hammer, and the hammer istelf probally weighs 5 pounds, i guess
the only way to describe the hammer motion is picking it up halfway and droping it without exerting any force on it.
Whats the big deal with the hammer test? It deosnt caus any damage, exept maybe kill your ear drums.

Hammer tests are fun! I jsut did my first one with AP yesterday with out earmuffs. It was a .5g pile and my left ear is still
ringing ever so faintly. So my advise USE EARMUFFS! It makes a world of difference and saves you a world of hurt ;)

Originally posted by McGyver
but before I hit it I pressed it hard with the hammer to experiment before pressing it into the 9V cap. It wasnt really a slight
drop of a hammer, and the hammer istelf probally weighs 5 pounds,
i think really that is not need to deal with primaries in that way, we know they are already sensitive, and AP is not one of the
tamest, since it is a little bitchy is no need to use hammer when working with it. I see many people like to take unnecessary
risks, pressing AP is already a risk, but doing with an hammer is a little too much crazy, isn't it?
I found out that AP makes the ear ring quite much, much more than Ng.
I wonder why.

One drop of NG left my ears ringing for days. AP for a few seconds.
bobo October 16th, 2003, 04:41 PM

How did you do the hammer test? What do you use to put the powder on/in? How do you whack the NG without it running?
I whacked a coffee filter with ~.5g of AP the other day, whacked again a few times and nothing happened. So I put it into a
cap with a fuse ripped from a firecracker and blew it into pieces, so it was good AP allright.

0.5 grams i alot for a hammer test! .1g is enough to leave your ears ringing...
Hammer test works better when you put the explosive on a flat surface, like a piece of metal.
Will a 1g pressed cap detonate 20/80 APAN charge? YES it will, probably even the standard 10/90 as well....DBSP

I dropped it on hot metal :o. And lets get this back on topic eh?
Efraim_barkbit October 17th, 2003, 10:08 PM

I set of quite a few APAN charges in the end of this summer, I dont have a very good scale, but I used approximatley 10-
15%AP.
In most of the smaller charges I made with it, I used pieces of garden hose(1,5cm inner diameter).
I first press the APAN to the wanted level into the hose, then I press ~5mm straight AP on top, before I add a little loose
powder and the fuse.
Never failed me yet.
If wider charges is to be set off, I often use a 4cm piece of pen casing with AP (sometimes APAN in that too, to minimize the
amount of Ap even more) 2/3 to full lenght inserted in the charge. Thats between 0,5 to 0,75 ccm inside the charge. In fact, I
have never had an APAN charge fail because of too weak detcap. Sometimes the cap hasnt made d-d transition because of
damp AP, but I dont count that.
If I scale up a bit, say >50g APAN, I use a bigger det, up to a maximum of~5ccm pressed APAN for my biggest APAN charge,
wich wheighed in at 100g.
EDIT:
Ooops... That ended up more OT than I thought...but if I sum it up in this point:
You wont need a lot of AP to detonate APAN., Now its at least a touch...
Efraim_barkbit October 22nd, 2003, 12:11 PM

I just made a test with unconfined AP.
I used 2 teaspoons of AP, wich I put in a pile on top of the electric ignitor (a steel wool wire between two wires to a 9 volt
battery) on top of a pice of one inch thick wooden board.
It detonated just like if its been in a casing, and I could feel the shock slightly 6-7meters away. and it also blew the board to
pieces.
I have some AP left and I would have tried with 1 teaspoon too, but Im in a hurry now. Maybee tomorrow
edit:
the pile was on top of the board, not the other way around.
DBSP October 22nd, 2003, 12:58 PM

Just to clarify things a bit. the AP was not unconfined. The wooden board would have given the AP the needed confinement.
Try the same thing again but with nothing on top of it, not even a thin layer of plastic sheeting or similar.
McGyver October 22nd, 2003, 07:08 PM

Most synthesis say to store AP you need to keep it under a layer of water. Well mine just floats on top, does anyone else have
simular characteristics?
blindreeper October 23rd, 2003, 03:14 AM

Mine floats ontop, but after about a week of storage its a nice suspension and most of the AP has been submerged
the_chemist October 24th, 2003, 02:15 AM

My AP floars as well. I actually left a batch precipitating for a bout a week, after which the acetone had all evaporated and
there was a nice amount of AP left in the bottom.
When using hydrogen peroxide in high concentrations, does anyone know if its possible to get pure stuff around 30-40%?

Do you mean get pure H2O2 in 30-50% concentrations? HA you have to be kidding with that question! Of course you can.
Check out the OTC survey thread to find out more details.

Chemist, th is isn t the place to post such question s. Tho se go in the water cooler, the next qu estion you might ask is where
to get it. Most would say search and your wanting to be spoon-fed but ill nudge you in the right direction try a hydroponics
store. Only ask questions of those types in the water cooler, even then asking questions that can be answered by searching
isn t a good idea.
Efraim_barkbit November 11th, 2003, 02:00 PM

When playing a round in MS Excel with a programme that I wrote for ca lculating the amounts of Acetone and X% hydrogen
peroxide needed for Yg Acetone peroxide, I saw something that caught my attention.
First, I saw that the amount of acetone, in millilitres the theoretical yield of AP in grammes. (-2,4ml @ 1000g)
Example: for 50g AP, the amount of acetone needed is 50ml.
Then I thought that there might be something that simple for the hydrogen peroxide amount too, so I put together some
readings and made a graph.(I used 30% H2O2 in these readings) Then I got the formula:
Y 1,09X ( +1,3ml @ 1000g)
Y= H2O2 amount in ml
X= AP amount in grammes
Example: for 50g AP, you need 1,09*50g= 54,5ml H2O2 (30%)
If other percentage is used, the formula can be changed easily by first dividing 30 with the percentage H2O2 you have, and
then multiplying the results with 1,09.
for example, if you have 6% H2O2, Then you do as follows:
30/6= 5 and 5*1,09= 5,45
wich changes the formula to:
Y 5,45X
Of course, you probably wont get a 100% yield, so dont come and complain when you get less AP from your batch than my
formula said you would get.
All of the above depends on if I got my calculations correct, so if you spot something wrong, please let me know.
3 moles Acetone <-> 3 moles H2O2<-> 1 mole AP<-> 3 moles water
1mole acetone: 58g, 1mole H2O2: 34g and 1mole AP: 222g
Ammonal November 12th, 2003, 08:22 AM

I have just aquired all of the materials for AP and I am well versed on the procedure, only problem is I dont have a fridge to
put the reaction vessel in. If I get a couple of kg's of dry ice in an esky (polystyrene box only bigger with a plastic skin) would
this be suitable for the reaction to occur or is the approx -60degrees too cold for the process?

It should work, it might take longer. You would aslo probably end up with a larger percentage of trimer:)
ALENGOSVIG1 November 12th, 2003, 07:13 PM

It'll most likely freeze.
Ammonal November 12th, 2003, 11:37 PM

Ok thanks for the advice I will try it as it should allow me to leave the reaction vessel for 24+hrs. I am thinking along the lines
that it will take longer that is the reaction will be slower but the cold temp should favour more of the trimer AP.
I will also try the shorter ice methods, there are mixed insructions ;some say leave it for a couple of hours while others say put
it in the fridge for 24hours.
I am going to pick up the dry ice today for the first batch. and tomorrow I am hoping to make a second batch using just
normal ice.
I will post the results of both here.
McGyver November 14th, 2003, 11:02 AM

If you can't use a fridge, :rolleyes: then use H2SO4 for the reaction, crystals will form faster then 24 hours.

I am hesitant at trying H2SO4 as the acid catalyst because I read somewhere that using it favours production of the dimer
form. I do not know the validity of this but I am going to test it. I currently have a batch of AP (100ml 6% H2O2, 50ml 100%
acetone, 15ml 35%HCl) sitting in a beaker inside my esky with 4 litres of methylated spirits and 5kg of dry ice. It has been
sitting in the dry ice now for 8 hours, with a small precipitate on the bottom and the top of the beaker. I scraped a small
amount out with a plastic spoon and waved a lighter near - resulting in a rapid sp. deflagruation and a light pop. So I know
that I have some AP formed.
Nevermore November 15th, 2003, 09:59 AM

I suppose the dry ice brings the temp too low for a good reaction to occurs..0C would be enough for forming mainly the trimer
version.
H2SO4 doen't form the dimer, the acid is only a catalyst, the temperature decides if dimer or trimer should be formed. so
keep your temp lower than 5C to form mainly trimer version.
The batch of AP you are making is quite large, i've never worked with more than 25ml of acetone at time, raise the
temperature to -5C-0C and the reaction will proceed much faster..
Ps i suggest you work with smaller batches, then seal the becker with plastic wrap after adding the acid, and bring to fridge, so
doing no smell will leak out and the Ap will form at best temperatre control.
T_Pyro November 15th, 2003, 01:27 PM

I am hesitant at trying H2SO4 as the acid catalyst because I read somewhere that using it favours production of the dimer
form.
That's because H2SO4 tends to produce localised hot spots, which promote the formation of the dimer. If your reaction
mixture is kept at around 10*C or lower, you shouldn't have any problems.

I have just checked the reaction beaker and the cloudy solution has cleared and the is a large precipitate on the top and
bottom of the solution. Is it normal for the solution to return to a clear state? I am thinking it could indicate the endpoint of
the reaction.
I am about to filter and wash the AP.
NOTE: the reaction beaker was left for 25hours in very close to -60degrees C.
I will report the final yield in a couple of hours.
blindreeper November 15th, 2003, 11:40 PM

-60 *C :eek: You probably will be disapointed with the yeild because the reactions was so cold it didn't react as much! Example
hot acid will eat metal faster than room temp. acid. Then again room tempertaure acid will eat metal faster than -60 C acid.
Thats jsut an example, the same goes with AP it will take far longer to react in such cold conditions.

I have just finished washing and filtering the AP, I would say that because this was my first time making, collecting, filtering
etc I have lost about 1 gram of AP, and my final dry yield is 8 grams. Which is 3 grams better than the estimate I was aiming
for, so as far as I am concerned it has been a success. Tomorrow I am going to try the standard ice method, guess I'll have to
defrost the freezer for mum after all :p
The 8 grams of AP was produced from 100ml 6% H2O2, can anyone say if this is a good or bad result?
blindreeper November 16th, 2003, 08:29 AM

Considering I used 200ml of 6% stuff and got next to nothing I would say thats a very good result. Just wait until you get
some high conc. H2O2, damn there is lots of AP! But be careful and play it safe. Make whatever you feel comfortable with. As
in the first time I made AP with 25% H2O2 and I had over 60g of AP on my hands! That is not easy to get rid of safely and
silently ;)
Efraim_barkbit November 16th, 2003, 11:47 AM

Here is a formula for calculating the amount of acetone needed for for optimal ratios with Xml 30% H2O2 (note: the amount
of acetone = amount of Ap with 100%yield)
Formula: (30% H2O2)

X / 1,09 = Y
Where Y is the amount of acetone in ml (= amount of AP with 100% yield in grammes)
example:
with 50ml 30%H2O2, you should use 50/1,09=45,9ml acetone (= 49,9g AP if 100% yield)
If you have another percentage of H2O2, the formula is easy to change.

Formula (Z% H2O2)
X/ (30/Z*1,09) =Y
Example: Z=6%
X/ (30/6*1,09)= Y
X/5,45=Y
If you want to calculate how good your yield was, just divide the amount of AP you got from the synth with the amount 100%
yield would have got.
Example: Ammonals yield: 9/ (100/5,45)~ 0,49 =49%
________________________________________________
@Ammonal:
Thats not very good yield compared to 100%, but it is probably hard to get much better with so low concentration of the H2O2,
combined with the very low temperature you used.
It will be nice to see the results from the other batch, and how much(if any) better the yield is.
do you still have the reactants?, it would be interesting to see if there is any more AP forming if you leave it in room temp for
a couple of more days. and, how much acetone did you use?
How was the size of the AP crystals?

Efraim_barkbit: I have been watching the reactants at room temp for ~20hours now and they have only become slightly cloudy
with no definate precipitate, I am going to leave it for another 2 or 3 days and observe the results. I used 50mls acetone.
The AP crystals are like flour, very very fine. They detonate excellently; 0.5grams turned the coffee filter, after it was wrapped
in masking tape into confetti :D
Efraim_barkbit November 17th, 2003, 04:25 AM

Thats WAY too much acetone,
The optimal would have been 100ml/5,45=18ml,
If you leave it so that the acetone evaporates, or add another 150ml H2O2, you will get more AP out of it,
chemofun November 23rd, 2003, 10:22 PM

I'm new to making explosives and I thought AP would be a good place to start (after reading as much as i can about it). I'm
prepared to take every step possible to make it safely and I've gathered the ingredients except for one... I need an acid
catalyst but i can't find mineral acids anywhere. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
JBC November 24th, 2003, 01:01 AM

chemofun, i really wouldn't bother making AP. i haven't made it myself, but i was sort of considering it at one point. after
hearing about how many accidents people have with it though, i've decided it's not a good idea - it's far too unpredictable.
personally i plan on trying to make MEKP instead, but don't have the time to do so yet. it's a lot more stable and is sensitized
fairly easily if you want it to be that way.
in regards to acids...hydrochloric isn't all that difficult to find, it's used for cleaning cement in 30% concentrations. sulfuric is a
little more difficult depending on where you live, but a few plumbing cleaners use it, and usually in high concentrations
(~95%).

i've decided it's not a good idea - it's far too unpredictable
How can such a statement be valid if you have not tried it yourself? As far as I am concerned it is a completely invalid point!
flash619d November 24th, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by JBC
chemofun, i really wouldn't bother making AP. i haven't made it myself, but i was sort of considering it at one point. after
hearing about how many accidents people have with it though, i've decided it's not a good idea - it's far too unpredictable.
personally i plan on trying to make MEKP instead, but don't have the time to do so yet. it's a lot more stable and is sensitized
fairly easily if you want it to be that way.
in regards to acids...hydrochloric isn't all that difficult to find, it's used for cleaning cement in 30% concentrations. sulfuric is a
little more difficult depending on where you live, but a few plumbing cleaners use it, and usually in high concentrations
(~95%).
HCl can be found at Lowes or similar as muriatic acid. H2SO4 can be found in ~%35 conc. as battery electrolyte, and IMO, is
the easiest and cheapest source for a lot of acid at ~US$15 for a 5 gallon bag which you can concentrate to ~1.5gals of %95.
Of course, that's a lot of boiling. AP isn't too unstable, it requires a fairly hard shock to detonate, so if you're careful, you will
have no problems. Most people have accidents because they did something that they knew was dangerous, or something they
should have known was bad. Nearly all accidents can be avoided, if you act logically, don't rush, and think things through. AP is
one of the best HEs for beginners, as it's fairly easy to get the precursors for, and is not too difficult to make.

I wont bother quoting you JBC, but unless you ACTUALLY make AP, you have no idea how stable AP is in the hands of
someone who researches; reads; asks questions and then ACTUALLY makes AP. I too, only a week ago had no experience
with AP whatsoever, BUT NOW I have made roughly 50grams of it and I followed the instructions here and from other sources
and I have yet to have a batch that has 'gone wrong' or any that has been super sensitive and blown my fingers off.
I have made detonators by pressing dry AP into .22LR cartridges, it is not unstable when it is handled with respect.
I am too tired and sick of covering old ground to continue flaming your post so I will leave you with a final comment; next
time you consider posting DO so ONLY if you have something worthwhile to add.
PS: Gee I didnt know I had that much spirit to flame someone like that, heheheheHA!
RabidGeneral November 24th, 2003, 07:44 PM

chemofun, I hope you don't mean COMPLETELY new to pyrotechnics. If you are completely new, start with LE's such as BP and
flash, and then move on to HE's. If you make AP as your first explosive ever, chances are high you're gonna hurt yourself.
chemofun November 25th, 2003, 12:15 AM

Thanks for all the info. I've worked with things that explode before; but I've never made my own explosive compounds. Just
out of curiosity (and i know it's off topic but) are high voltage electrical discharges and working with plasmas (like from Tesla
coils) considered pyrotechnics?
If this is too off topic then dont answer if you dont feel like it.
Bert November 25th, 2003, 10:48 AM

No... That would be electronics and/or physics.
nitriees November 27th, 2003, 10:27 PM

I have make AP three times, the precusor I used was,
H2O2 50%
HCL 33%
Acetone ~99%
Place the H2O2/Acetone mix into ice water bath, add HCL slowly and
maintain the temperature below 5 degree celcius, with continuosly stir,
add excess HCL, stop adding when 30% AP already precipitate.
Just need another hour for AP to precipitate almost completely, fast and easy.
No run away reaction encounter like when I make HMTD.
chemofun December 4th, 2003, 08:36 PM
where do you guys get your concentrated h2o2? I only have 3% so my yeild sucks.
blindreeper December 4th, 2003, 08:52 PM

SEARCH!
Look for the Great OTC Survey thread in Chemicals, Appartus and Equipment!
Sir Dudalot December 4th, 2003, 08:59 PM

Exactly. I don't think the yields for 3% are really THAT bad. Actually, for 300mL of H2O2 I can get about 10g-12g of AP which
is right in line with some other peoples synths who use 30%. The only difference is they get 40g and use four times as much
(I compared it to Alengosvig's yields). To get decent yields using 3% I use an excess of 100mL of acetone to 300mL of H2O2
and 50mL of 91% H2SO4. I let it react for a few days. I know this is exessive and wasteful but when you only have 3% it's
almost worth it.
blindreeper December 4th, 2003, 10:12 PM

Sorry to say this Dudalot, but you can't say anything about how good yeilds are from 3% untill you have had high conc, H2O2.
The yeilds are amazing its like a slurpie (frozen coke) of AP. 3% hardly compares to that, I have tried both.

Yes, but what I was trying to say is that the yield comes out to relatively the same in the end. Alengosvig uses 120 30%, I use
a quarter of that and get a quarter of his yield. High conc. H2O2 is good because you can make more at a time instead of
having to deal with thousands of mL of H2O2. Higher conc. H2O2 also gives you the yield quicker with less acid and acetone to
deal with. Damn, so many advantages that I'm missing out on. I've been checking all my local and not so local pool supply
stores for it but they never seem to have some. Someday....
mikey December 6th, 2003, 03:25 PM

"sir dunalot" if you do not mind mail ordering your h202 there are plenty of Hydroponics Suppliers, usually it's about 17.5%,
but some is 30-35% you just gotta look for it. It is usually sold as Oxy Water Oxygenator or instant oxygen or somthing like
that. Hear are links to several websites that do it in the US.
http://www.1-hydroponics.co.uk/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=N87
or
http://www.aci-hydroponics.com/ has loads of links to suppliers in the USA
or
http://www.genhydro.com/dealerlist.html even more suppliers in the USA
or
http://www.quickgrow.com/cgi-bin/shop/search.cgi?query=H202+
or finally if none of them work and you got a spare 399 dollars you can buy 50 gallons of 35% for hear
http://www.groworganic.com/a/item_PSA860_HydrogenPeroxide3550Gal.html
thats alot of AP:D and if you still cant find anything just do a search on google for a Hydroponics Supplier, good luck finding
some

Wow...I've never really looked for suppliers that could ship it to me. However, after trying just about every other alternative
(pool supply, hydroponic, rocket fuel, etc.) I'm beginning to think that ordering it might be the way to go. Many many thanks
for all the links. They look quite promising. Once again, thank you.
Evan007 December 12th, 2003, 06:55 AM

Holy S***! LIKE A SLURPIE!?!?!?! Thats Unbeleivable. I have only ever used 6% h2o2, which in my method results in a layer
on the top or bottom (or both) of the beaker (depending on how long I leave it) which is easy to filter and wash.
In My opinion it might be better for begginers at AP to use the lower concentrations, in order to avoid run-aways and also
excessive amounts of AP, The latter might not sound so bad, but people who arent completely familiar with the properties of
AP might unwittingly do something that they didnt know would instantly and unmercifully remove fingers. I suggest
familiarising yourself THOROUGHLY with AP before going for the "supa-size slurpie"
just a message for any real begginners thats all.
chemofun December 15th, 2003, 03:23 PM

Hey thanks for all the info. I've made several batches of AP now and i was wondering if anybody knew an easy (and safe) way
to start mass producing AP? I mean like a a pound or a half pound per batch.
Stubine December 16th, 2003, 02:51 AM
I use H2SO4 in the form of Rooto Drain Cleaner, 30%H2O2, and I get instantanious results and terrific yields. It is a bit of a
pain to use the H2SO4 though, you have to add the acid very very slowly, and I usually have to put the reaction mixture in the
freezer a few times before I can get all of the acid in. The results are well worth it though. I have a question concerning
making an ap "putty" though. I understand you can use NC and acetone as the other compound in an AP/NC mixture in a 50/
50 ratio by weight. Has anyone here made ap putty?
grendel23 December 16th, 2003, 07:13 AM

There is no safe way to make large quantities of AP.
There is no safe way to store large quantities of AP.
There is no safe way to use large quantities of AP.
AP is unstable and unpredictable. You can get away with using small quantities if you are carful, but large amounts are very
dangerous.
Read some of the threads on accidents, AP is the culprit in many cases.
Ammonal December 16th, 2003, 08:06 AM

Chemofun: There is a place called 'The Water Cooler' on this forum where you can go to make statements "like i want to
make a pound of AP", otherwise for things that you would make in one pound batches there is the 'High Explosives' section.
Sir Dudalot: I would suggest that you do not use excess acetone on your AP synth, because it has the nature of a powerful
solvent - one of the thing it dissolves is AP. I performed a test once where a batch was filtered and weighed, result: 8.5grams,
I left the filtrate for a week in the sun to drive of the excess solvent I had used and then put it into the fridge when it nolonger
smelt of acetone. After it was cool more AP precipitated and I filtered and weighed this gaining another 7 grams of AP. The
ratios I used were 150ml 6%H2O2, 50ml acetone, 30ml 30% HCl. This in total with the extra week of evaporating the acetone
gave me 15.5grams from that batch. It was time consuming but it did establish that an excess of acetone is not an
advantage. I now use 100ml 6% H2O2, 15ml acetone, 20ml 30%HCl and get a yield of 9-10 grams consistently.
Just a suggestion though, damn I want some higher concentration H2O2! :p
matjaz December 31st, 2003, 02:03 PM

Some dream data:
It looks like we all get 20-25% yields. The final mass of AP would ideally be approx. equal to the mass of acetone used. I use
12% strength hair dye lotion (whiteish colloid thing) as H2O2, and old HCl which was once 30%. If I use 1 part HCl for 10 parts
acetone, I get most of the reaction done in some 48-72 hours and a yield of 20%. Doubling the amount of acid, it only takes
about 20 hours to get 25% yield. (All numbers after filtering... etc. losses).
K'Luuppo December 31st, 2003, 04:25 PM

I red somewhere on the Forum that nitroglycerin will be nasty if it freezes and then melts.
If the acetone/hydrogen peroxide/acid mix freezes with maybe some AP in the beaker and then melts, what will happen? I
just don't want blow our balcony's windows out...
bigbang January 5th, 2004, 02:09 PM

Does any one know how AP reacts with NaOH ? If it does not react with it and the HCl does not get consumed (it is just a
catalyst) Then wouldn't adding the same amount of NaOH of HCl you used after the reaction is finished, neutralize the acid?
You would end up with NaCl, H2O, AP and what ever is left of the Acetone that didn't get used in the reaction. The AP should
float on top of the salt water and be neutralized. After removing the AP all you would need to do is let it dry.
If this has been asked before, forgive me. I looked through the four pages of posts but diddn't see anything.
Ollie Snowie January 5th, 2004, 04:20 PM

If you want to neutralize the HCl you might as well use bicarbonate of soda because it's not as as soluble as NaOH and you
can tell when you've added enough because the mix will not fizz when you add more of it. Also, HCl is a gas when it's not in
solution, so as your AP dries the HCl will float away. No need for neutralization if you're using HCl.
[EDIT - Sorry, I tried to put in a Tab and then pressed Enter by mistake. Anyway, do without the Tab]
You'd need far more than the necessary HCl and NaOH to make the AP float on the brine produced, and what's wrong with
filtering it?
--------------------
newbies reading this post also read my post below - kingspaz

Ammonal, check pool shops and hydroponics shops for some 30% to 50% H2O2. 50% H2O2 is sold as "Oxyplus" in most
Australian hydro shops for about $20 per litre. I was able to buy a bulk 5L container for $75. It may sound like a lot but it
works out much cheaper than the 6% stuff once you consider how much H2O2 it contains.
Sir Dudalot January 6th, 2004, 09:14 PM

I just finished an AP synth using ~30% H202 (boiled down from 3%) and the crystal structure is very noticeably larger. I mean,
it's not gigantic, but obvious. It's definitely smaller than salt crystals. Normally when it's wet and drying it's kind of creamy but
this time it's grainy. I'm assuming this kind of crystal size is normal for using more concentrated H202.
I'd like to say that the yields from concentrated H202 truly are better than 3%. It really is like a slurpie. I don't think I'll ever
be able to go back to 3% now. It took less time and less reagents, the two things I don't have much of. Blindreeper, I'd like
to say that you are absolutely right about concentrated H202 being worlds better.
Ammonal January 7th, 2004, 08:00 AM

Its all good now XYZ, my delivery came just 2 days ago and I've made 79grams AP and 194grams HMTD. One thing I gotta
say about making HMTD is if you've got some 50%H2O2, then dilute it by at least a half strength again, otherwise unless you
add solid dry ice into the acid/H2O2,hexamine it go runaway before you add your acid catalyst! What I mean is to dilute the
H2O2 to at least 25% or about 15-20% concentration seems to be controllable. I paid AU$20 for 500ml oxyplus, do any fellow
aussies reckon this is dear or what? I found another product called "oxyponic" in a litre bottle for $20, anybody in Aus know if
this is H2O2? (it must be the only thing about online ordering that sucks; not knowing what something is until you've got it
and paid for it and its the wrong stuff! :()

That is quite an expensive price for oxyplus. See my post earlier about prices.
I use straight 50% H2O2 for my AP synths but I make sure that it is in a good salt ice bath and all the precursors have also
been cooled.
kingspaz January 8th, 2004, 09:53 AM

Ollie Snowie, nice theory, BUT is your AP ever going to be COMPLETELY dry? i think not. there will always be a residual amount
of miosture in it since you can't heat it to drive the last bit off. thus, it will always be acidic since the 'water' will still contain HCl.
so, you are wrong in saying you don't need to neutralise it.
T_Pyro January 8th, 2004, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Ollie Snowie
Also, HCl is a gas when it's not in solution, so as your AP dries the HCl will float away. No need for neutralization if you're using
HCl.
Not going to happen. HCl is too soluble in water to just "float away" as the mixture dries. Even IF you were to heat some
aqueous HCl (which I don't think you're going to be doing in this case), you wouldn't be able to discharge the HCl completely.
Hang-Man January 11th, 2004, 04:22 PM

Yes, even when I let my AP react for a long time, there is sufficient HCl to make it bubble when bicarb solution is added.
PS. I have pics/ video of some AP crackers going off with various things. Should I post them here/at all?
kingspaz January 11th, 2004, 06:31 PM

the reason there is still plenty of HCl left to make bicarb bubble is because it isn't consumed by the reaction. it is a catalyst for
the reaction and catalysts are not used up. so you should still have the same amount of HCl in there that you started with.
inverse January 12th, 2004, 08:24 AM

Chemofun,
in the field of primary explosives there's no such thing as 'mass production'.
Industrial production batches of lead azide and mercury fulminate are always kept at laboratory scale.
There's a reason for that.
lucas January 12th, 2004, 11:06 AM

XYZ: My Oxyplus , 500ml was markred $17 but I paid $15 because thats what the local guy does. I have found that it
definately should be diluted for meduim sized or larger batches. Small, ie <50ml batches are ok in full concentration, but then
I base this on mainly HMTD synths. AP synths with this gear, the 50% H2O2, can be given a fraction of the acid, which is nice
for neutralisation later. I also would like to remind everyone that if using H2SO4, that it should be added to water to dilute it
and then cooled before it is added to the mixture of reactants. The heat released when it reacts with the available water is
quite immense.
My experience with the 50% gear also shows that the acidity of the acetone, mentioned in other threads is sufficient for a
slight reaction to occur between the reactants before the addition of the extra acid catalyst.
Regarding Oxyplus, my hydro shop guy sugested that I might want to try another new type of product because some growers
were finding that the hydrogen peroxide sanitisers were not always preventing infection. This abvously leads me to believe that
there must be other sanitisers that are not H2O2. I dont know what these products are, but it isnt H2O2. Oxyplus and similar
products also refered to as oxygenators on their labels, aswell as sanitisers, so "oxyponic" is likely H2O2, since the name
implies it i an oxygenator.
blindreeper January 12th, 2004, 08:54 PM

When on I was hunting down H2O2 as oxyplus some drongo at the hydroshop tried to sell me this H2O2 with some funky
silver compound in it, may be what your talking about. All I know is I didn't want to buy it :P
chemofun January 14th, 2004, 10:52 PM

I got my h2o2 at an organic food market as a chlorine free bleach. Its great because its very concentrated ( i dont know
exactly how much but i can tell from my AP synth that its very good) and it doesnt have any inhibiting ingredients. The one I
got is called Ecover. It's also very cheap. Something like 4 US$ for a half gallon jug which makes quite a load of TCAP. If
anyone has a method of testing concentration of H2O2 then I'm sure everyone here could benefit from it.
bigbang January 21st, 2004, 02:54 PM

Ollie Snowie - I was just looking for a way to not need to wash/filter 18(sarcasim) times to remove the acid from the AP. I was
thinking that adding NaOH to solution I could just filter the AP once and not need to wash it in water or a bicarbonate of soda
solution.
Wild Catmage January 22nd, 2004, 06:40 AM

I'd choose to add NaCO3 instead of NaOH, as NaOH can be corrosive in higher concentrations. NaCO3 will react to form CO2,
H2O and NaCl, and the NaCO3 is soluble in the acid/water mix. Add it before filtering, let it react, then filter out the AP.
Cyclonite January 22nd, 2004, 08:53 AM

I just submerge the ap in a filter into the strong bicarbonate solution for 30min then in water....Iv never had any problems
Hang-Man January 25th, 2004, 12:54 AM

I put my raw AP in a coffee filter suspended over a beaker held there with an elastic band around the lip. Then I pour in 100
ml of water, 100ml of Bicarbonate solution, then spred it on paper and let it dry. Granted I never store it very long, but it has
always been stable, never giving me the slightest problem.
If you are overcome by the urge, as I was, to fill a copper pipe with AP and set it off. For Gods sake get some cover. It sends
shrapnel everywhere, peppering the co ffee can I ha d it in with holes. If it s your first time making some and you want an idea
of what it could do, <a Href=Http://www.geocities.com/hangmangod/Pics.html?1075005843894>go here</a> to see the site I
made in less time than it took to type this message.
Damn you geocities...I could post the images here, but they need to be pretty high res to get the idea.
Boomer January 26th, 2004, 07:35 AM

I may be the last one to tell others to be careful, missing fingers myself since 3 weeks. But if you HAVE to put AP into a metal
casing, for gods sake use a remote press and seal the end with tissue + epoxy so the AP cannot be pressed/moved before
handling the thing. Another member lost fingertips while lightly (!) pressing some AP into a plastic straw (!).
It is a good idea to use max. g AP, pressed in first, and then add a less sensitive HE. This also increases power further.
Your blown copper pipes would be dust (<1mm pieces) instead of p e e l e d b a n a n a s if you ha d used PETN / MHN / ETN etc for
the main charge. They generate over 200 kilo-bar (tons/square cm) compared to approx. 30 kbar (IIRC) for AP.
And: AP as a main charge is suicide! One static spark, o ne big ger crystal, ..
Cyclonite January 27th, 2004, 03:36 AM

I dont think it would be quite dust but more like bird shot. Iv put military caps under coffee cans and it looks like it was hit
with a shotgun afterwards and its all bowed out. You get some great height on the can also. As for AP as a general rule keep
the caps away from your main charge until you place it. Pressing should be done remotely as mentioned. Its kind of strange
but when I use 6% H2O2 vs. 30% I get better quality AP, allot less though.
Guerilla January 27th, 2004, 04:56 AM

But isnt the PETN in commercial caps shaped to focus the explosion outwards from the end, thus the peeling effect? At least
the caps Ive seen have only blown about an inch from the other end and looked like a trumpet after that (if detonated alone).
Im sure it would make a significant difference if PETN was used instead of AP in a similar pipe..
Cyclonite January 27th, 2004, 09:09 AM

The end of the cap is blow apart but the less powerful explosives in the blasting cap train leave a banana effect. Iv only seen
this a couple of times though, most caps I use are destroyed by the main charge:D
Efraim_barkbit January 28th, 2004, 04:37 PM

When I went out today to dry out some AP, I found that the moist AP had now frozen to a hard solid "cake"in the coffe filter it
was sitting in.
I have heard about NG becoming extremely sensitive when frozen/thawing, How worried shall I be about the AP, should I dare
to thaw ice in it?
The other option is to take it out in the forest and ignite it in the filter.
Since it isnt the explosive in itself that is frozen, I figure that it could probably be thawed with out increased stresses on the
crystals, I guess that the actual freezing is more stressing.
But Ill probably go with the second option anyways.
Guerilla January 28th, 2004, 06:19 PM

Ive once had AP in frozen liquid too, I let it thaw with some water and processed normally. I dont think the freezing would
make the crystals any bigger, after all the reaction just gets slower and slower along the temperature drop and those that form
are even smaller than normal. While the ice will stress some of the ap, the DDT is unlikely to happen if its all moist. In NG's
case its frozen itself and thawing generates more friction between molecules..
Hang-Man January 31st, 2004, 08:59 AM

I let my reaction run outside all night and in the morning it was a solid block, I put a few ml of water in it and the "block"
disolved pretty fast. I broke it apart with a glass stirring rod and moved it around for a few miniuts and it disolved into a slurry
of AP which I processed. I noticed this AP was allmost granular but that may have been because I didn't let it dry very long
before useing.
Efraim_barkbit February 1st, 2004, 07:42 AM

I have solved the problem, I just poured warm water over it.
Strange I didnt think of that myself, so simple.
I also tried to ignite a piece of the "frozen" AP, and it wasnt possible to keep the deflageration going, it just made a small
fireball and got slightly smaller with each ignition. when in contact with a red hot wire, it made a "snapping" sound, but nothing
more.
(the piece of AP was ~2x1x0,5 cm, ignition methods was fuse and electrical ignition, and some smaller pieces with open
flame.)
It is drying slightly below room temperature as I write, hopefully dry before evening., Damn, I havnt detonated anything for
over a month, and I cant even walk past a big heap of snow, without wondering about how big snow cloud 400g ANNM would
make of it.
al93535 February 15th, 2004, 11:06 PM

I did my synthesis of Acetone Peroxide and got better each time I tried it, using varying amounts of reactants. The first time I
tried it I did this:
100 ml 50% h2o2 (3% frozen to concentrate)

45 ml 100% acetone
21 ml 29% HCL
Acetone and H2O2 reacted and climbed about 4-5 degrees celsius to about 7 degrees. Let mixture cool back to 2 degrees,
added HCL in 3 ml increments rose about 1-2 degrees per addition.
90 minutes added 2 ml HCL some nice precipitate.
3 hours, lots of AP thick layer on bottom.
6 hours looks nice! lots of AP.
Precipitate colleted after 24 hours
24 hours good yeild. Final yield of 3.568 Grams
You can view my pictures for this synthesis at www.geocities.com/al93535/index.htm
Then I tried this:

100 ml 50% h2o2 (3% frozen to concetration)
150 ml acetone
30 ml HCL
24 hours nice nice amount of precipitate, about 1/4 cup on bottom.
Precipitate collected afer 32 hours
Dry final yield 10.046 Grams
And this is the one I tend to use now:

60 ml 50% H2O2 (3% frozen to concentration)
100 ml 100% Acetone
24 ml 29% HCL
24 hours reaction time
Dry final yield - 10.7762 grams!
On a side note, I also found that using the 3% h2o2 concentrated by freezing works very well. Put it in a baggie, put it in the
freezer, and watch it until it's almost totally frozen. Then pour out the liquid back into container. Tested to be about 50%.
matjaz February 16th, 2004, 04:41 AM

al93535,
if your H2O2 really is 50%, your ratios are way off. Please read the AP section on www.roguesci.org/megalomania and
recalculate for 50% peroxide. I won't tell you the right figures because I want you to read it and do it yourself. ;)
Also, are you sure you got 50% peroxide with freezing? How did you test it? Your yields seem shitty... A good harvest of AP is
around 1/3 of initial acetone weight.
When you figure out the numbers, limit yourself to 10ml acetone for one batch. You should get over 3g of dry AP this way and
this can still reduce everything from your wrist down into red mist. Seriously. This is a primary explosive, so it can happen for
no reason. Did you remember to neutralize before drying?
al93535 February 16th, 2004, 03:49 PM

Matjaz,
I calculated only for the third batch, using the formula I read on here somewhere ago: for 30% h2o2: X ml in h2o2/1.09=Y ml
of acetone. I adjusted X/(30/Z*1.09)=Y so it came to be X/.654=Y, thats 91.75 ml acetone for 60 ml 50% h2o2. Added a bit
extra to use up all the h2o2. So I got 1/3 of a good yield (10 out of 33 grams), since you say good yield is 1/3 of acetone
weight.
I did a small test of the H2o2 by decomposing it over silver grains, and measuring the amount of oxygen produced. However I
may have to do another as I believe there were a few problems the first time. (Maybe why I got shitty yield.) I will re-test, and
run a reaction with only 10 ml acetone to check as you suggest.
I know how powerful AP is, haven't had any accidents yet. Safety is most paramount in my mind, and I try to limit risk! And
yes I neutralized. I washed with distilled water twice, then 10% bi-carb solution, then water agan. After that I used the coffee
filter as a tea-bag and dipped it into 20% bi-carb for about 10 min until no further fizzing was heard. Then one more bi-carb
rinse, and a final water rinse. I plan on using a small AP det, 1 gram or so, to set off some NG as soon as I get my nitric.
matjaz February 17th, 2004, 07:06 AM

al93535,
don't know about this formula, I use ratios derived from the balanced formula for acetone peroxidation. It's 34g pure peroxide
for 50g acetone. By volume, that's approx. 30ml/50ml.
I'm guessing you add excess acetone because your H2O2 costs more time and money. It's tempting indeed, but if you have
unreacted acetone at the end, a lot of AP will be dissolved in it and lost through the filter. (Although this may be a remedy: at
the end of the reaction, dump everything in twice as much water. I think dissolved AP should precipitate.)
As a comparison, try this. 10ml acetone, 60ml of 3% H2O2 - boiled to 5ml, 2ml of 30% HCl.
Be careful with boil-concentrating H2O2, it can detonate above 50% conc., and it's extremely nasty on the skin.
I like your attitude. You fear explosives. I guess it spells "longevity". :)
- Another thought: At the end of reaction, my product is as thick as yoghurt, so I actually have to add water to make it
pourable enough to get it all out.
Myrol February 17th, 2004, 08:00 AM

G'day folks! Im a new Voice here so it could be intresting for ya what i can say about AP: For the Synthesis i used everytime
100ml Acetone, 150ml 30% H2O2 and 25ml 35Vol.% Sulfuric Acid (from the Drugstore). The Acetone was very cold and the
Oxiplus around zero degrees. I mixed both Chemicals and let it sit for around 2h unchilled (its good to hold the Temp. after
Acidcatalysing around 15C). After that i put the Sulfuric in the Beaker and stir or swirl it until the gentle shit is nice mixed and
can react for 24h at 15C. A too low temperatur is bad for the Quality! It form hard lumps that i dont want to broke down into
fine dust, because its AP not TNT.....The solid Block of AP is ready for Washing and i do it with Bicarb.-Solution until it smells
not more so strong after Camphor! Blabla...washing with huge amounts water until its NEUTRAL (on a Towel, i hate these
instable Coffeefilter) and drying near my Desk to do the last step for perfect quality AP! I take the Stainless-steel sieve from
my Moms kitchen and sieve the dry product to carry out bigger lumps of hard AP. The sieved AP is extremly fine and ready for
our good-old APAN! My Yield: 100g Acetone form 100g AP whats around the 80% mark!
phone February 17th, 2004, 02:35 PM

Well, I am quite a newbie, I just make some explosives and blow em up for fun, and well, if Im going to be honest, I dont
even bother going somewhere deserted, I just blow em up in the local park.
Well, I gotta ask i couple of questions, I made some other stuff and so,
but what I need help with is this:
"What quantity aceton/peroxid shall I have?"
I dont really know, what I do is that I take a lot of snow in a bucket, take an icecreampack on 2L and put it in the bucket in
the snow, then I put 4 parts H2O2 and 3 parts aceton and 0.1-1 part acid (depending on conc., sort e.tc.) Usually like 1 part
30% HCI.. (I read this is "Swedish Infomania")
Its colder then 5C, thats one for sure, but Ive heard you get some unstable shit with stuff made over 5C so I try to cool it
nice. (this one I read here somewhere).
Is this seriusly wrong or? And when I distill it I just take an eternity-coffeefilter and filter it a long time so I dont get some
acid reacting lame, and all the materials I use is in plastic. And this weekend I want to make like somewhere around 700AP
and take a lot of AN and do some APAN :) But well, I could get some expertise :D And well, I think I could need the help of a
pro or someone who really has read on, cause there are some people on this forum that just doesnt.. Seem to know what
they talk about (As I dont am like that :( :P)
al93535 February 17th, 2004, 02:50 PM

Phone,
What concentration h2o2 are you using? And yes make sure you keep it as cold as possible between 0 and 5 deg. is fine for
forming the trimeric isomer of AP. You should use glass for your reaction vessel, any glass, a drinking glass will work. We can't
tell you if 4 parts h2o2 to 3 parts acetone is correct unless we know your concentrations. And did you say you wanted to make
700 grams?
Matjaz,
Thanks again, I am sure a bit dissolves in the excess acetone. Good idea to pour it into the water. I think I will try 10ml
acetone, 60ml of 3% H2O2 - boiled to 5ml, 2ml of 30% HCl. Will post my results.
Efraim_barkbit February 17th, 2004, 06:07 PM

The formulas I posted in this thread some pages back, is not correct.
I thougt about uploading the excell "program" I made, to help people calculate proper ratios for AP, and when I looked at it, I
saw that I had forgot an important step when changing the H2O2 amount from grammes to ml.
I had overlooked the simple fact that the density varies with the H2O2 percentage.
So, Im sorry to say that the formulas I posted is wrong.
the first (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=48345&postcount=148) and the second (http://roguesci.org/theforum/
showpost.php?p=48673&postcount=161) (except for the part about acetone volume= AP wheight, if 100%yield)
BUT, Im working on correcting it, and I will post the correct formulas, as well as a excell "program" to do the calculations,
hopefully done before the end of the week. its just not quite as simple as I thougt it to be.
Thank you, al93535, for (unintentionally) making me notice this.
phone February 17th, 2004, 06:52 PM

Phone,
What concentration h2o2 are you using? And yes make sure you keep it as cold as possible between 0 and 5 deg. is fine for
forming the trimeric isomer of AP. You should use glass for your reaction vessel, any glass, a drinking glass will work. We can't
tell you if 4 parts h2o2 to 3 parts acetone is correct unless we know your concentrations. And did you say you wanted to make
700 grams?
Matjaz,
Thanks again, I am sure a bit dissolves in the excess acetone. Good idea to pour it into the water. I think I will try 10ml
acetone, 60ml of 3% H2O2 - boiled to 5ml, 2ml of 30% HCl. Will post my results.
I use 19.5% technical. How Much I need isnt necessery, I just want a lot but not too much cause it is still an explosive that is
known to go screw people up..
Myrol February 18th, 2004, 07:17 AM

Could it be that small amounts of Water in the finished charge AP increase its Power? In Fact, PETN does! Why not AP? Let me
say 2-5% Water makes AP 1: more safer for transportation and pressing 2: Increases the Detovelo like the PETN-way 3: the
water can broke down during the Detonation into oxygen and Hydrogen because the Carbon/Carbonmonoxide can reduce
Water at Temperatures around 2000C--> Wassergasgleichgewicht! Whats your opinion? Ive heard that from some Friends
who ignites AP ever in wet form with a 2g AP-cap with great Success! An example could this one here: C9H18O6+ H2O--
BAAAMM--> 7CO+ 2C+ 10H2 :p
bigbang February 23rd, 2004, 09:29 AM

Ok, I see in many places through this thread how to calculate h2o2 and acetone needed. (which is easy enough given the
reaction.) What I would like to know is, How does one go about calculating the amount of acid needed in an acid catalysed
reaction. Other than just tring different amounts or relying on information given. (I don't like being told to use x amount, I
want to know why.)
Myrol February 23rd, 2004, 10:12 AM

Calculating is not necessesary! I use everytime Sulfuric Acid as Catalyst! My Drugstore sell it 96% for 6,9Euro per Liter! So i
thinned some to a concentration 50% by Mass (around 37% by Volume) and chill it until its cold and useful for AP-preparation!
I have a Yield 80% from Acetone within 24h at 15C with sometimes stirring! 200ml Acetone and 300ml 30% H2O2 forms with
50ml 50% Sulfuric Acid around 160g AP!
matjaz February 23rd, 2004, 10:32 AM

Myrol, yes, but this yield isn't comparable. You use a huge excess of peroxide, which is the expensive component. So in terms
of peroxide used, your yield is just the same - between 30% and 35%.
Also, that's exactly what Bigbang doesn't want. Recipes. He was trying to understand. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to tell
the amount of catalyst needed. The more, the faster the reaction. On the other side, a really BIG amount of catalyst would
lower the reactant concentration, so...
scarletmanuka February 24th, 2004, 02:26 AM

A little bit OT, but in terms of AP filtration, I have just discovered that A chamois is the way to go, it absorbs all the water very
quickly, or lets it soak through, and when dry it is easy to reclaim all the AP unlike when using a shirt or paper towel when half
the AP gets stuck in the little pores leaving behind a residue which is unreclaimable. I have yet to use it for HMTD, but I think
it would be a very succesful method for optimising the reclamation of it from the pasty mixture that forms. If any of you have
had the same experience as me where the HMTD just passes straight through the filtering membrane, or just gets stuck to it.
Obviously the best part about it is that it is reusable.
Mendeleev February 25th, 2004, 01:12 AM

Weary about storing acetone peroxide, I only make it if I use it, however this gets quite tiresome and I was looking for a
possible mixture of AP and a less sensitive explosive for blasting caps. Most people seemed to be using APAN as a main
charge, but I was hoping to use it as blasting cap, meaning about a 50/50 ratio, something which can be detonated with a
nichrome detonator. However I was looking for something a bit stronger so I was thinking maybe 25/75 or 35/65 acetone
peroxide to picric acid respectively. Would anybody like to comment or predict on the success of such a blasting cap?
Efraim_barkbit February 25th, 2004, 04:02 AM

In the blasting caps I use, I use a piece of plastic pipe in appropriate size, fill it 4/5 or more with pressed 10/90 AP/AN, and fill
the rest with straight AP, works like a charm, and uses very little AP.
IRC, someone said somewhere that it wasnt very smart to mix the peroxide with TNP, I dont remember the reason.
blindreeper February 25th, 2004, 04:10 AM

Because you neutralize peroxides to free them of acid and then going and using them with an acid such as trinitrophenol is
idiodic.
al93535 February 29th, 2004, 04:00 AM

I really messed up my test for my h2o2 concentration. Looks like it was only about 9%!! So to confirm it I bought 27%, and
measured it at about 26%. Damn, I can't believe I errored that much! Anyway, I just tried an AP synth with the 27%. 55 ml
h2o2, 30 ml acetone, and 13.6 ml 29% hcl (16% of reactant volume). As soon as I stirred in the sixth ml of acid ap was
beggining to form, my solution was at 5 degrees. By the time I got to 13.6 the vessel was filled with ap!! Has anyone else had
AP form quite that fast? I used to have to wait at least 90 minutes to see any, this time the bulk formed within 10 minutes! I
sure hope about 5 degrees will form trimeric.
Myrol February 29th, 2004, 12:25 PM

al93535: Yes its ok that your AP forms so fast as you said! I used 50% diluted Sulfuric Acid and my Beaker creates also within
5min. so much AP that you can see how the Atoms bond to the white fluffy Crystals! Umm you use 30% Hydrochloric Acid with
good success! Did you believe its better than Sulfuric? I had a shitty runaway while making AP with HCl, thats the reason why i
switched to diluted Sulfuric ;) Urbanski says its better to use Sulfuric instead of HCl to form more Trimeric AP but HCl is more
Cheap :cool: Yesterday i blewed my first APAN-Charge into the Air and it was GREAT!! The 400g (25% AP, 75% AN with my
scale) mades not a to loud BOOOMM but the Wave felts holy good on my Head :p (I was 500m away!! IN FOREST!!) Next
weekend i look after the Crater because i had no Choice to went back after the Blast! The Cops are nice alerted since my 8kg
ANFO............Whats your opinion? Wich mixture APAN is one of the bests? I tend to 20-30% AP because to much AN creates a
not full detonateble Charge if you're mix it not well enough (Thats often in fact so). To your Question: AP formed at 5C is
nice but 15C are better if you want a complete Reaction! When im making AP At lower than 15C (never higher!!!!) it forms to
slowly to get a yield around 80% within 24h! It makes also hard unuseable lumps under 10C with 30% H2O2 (my Peroxide!).
I hope it helpes somewhat! Please say if the Post is to long for reading, next time i make it shorter!

Your post is not too long, but I suggest you buy a new keyboard, the one you use now seems to lack the "enter" key.
Myrol March 1st, 2004, 10:50 AM

Yes you're right! My original HP-Keyboard was splashed with lot of thick sticky Cacao and we're waiting now more than 10days
for a new one! HP promised us to send a new one but they said it needs time......My Mom can't wait so long and buyed one for
seven Euros! Cheap but enough for writing! :p
K'Luuppo March 9th, 2004, 10:17 AM

At last I had a dream about small white crystals in my beaker...
In the dream I filtered them and poured ~0,25l of water on them, while they were in a coffee filter. Then they were put into a
beaker with few dl water. Into that beaker I poured ~3 teaspoons of baking soda, stirred quite a lot and then filtered all the
crystals out. There was probably soda in the filtration(?) so I poured about half a litre tap water in the filter, for the soda to
solve and be gone with water.
Then I had approximately same amount, maybe little less, crystals in the filter than I had when crystals were first filtered. I
split the crystals into eight plastic balls, leaving ~1,5-2ccm (many estimates here) into them. Those balls were let to dry for
about 20 hours.
One of those balls were taken into the forest besides my house and blew up there with fuse from roman candles (I know it is
lame). Results weren't really what I expected: *pop,* maybe what you get if you drop a fist-sized stone from a metre, bottom
half of the ball burdened ~20cm into snow and top half never found.
Well, I would have expected at least an commercial firecracker-sized *pop,* even if it were my dream.
The point is, can anyone explain, what I dreamed wrong. My guess would be the soda, moisture and/or lack of pressing.
Cyclonite March 9th, 2004, 11:32 AM

Im sure its moisture, you should have small piles of AP on newspaper or some other absorbent material until its a free flowing
powder. Try shifting it some every once and a while. Also when its neutralized pour rubbing alcohol all over it and squeeze the
rest out. This will speed up the drying process.
K'Luuppo March 15th, 2004, 08:26 AM

I had another dream, and you were right. I put the stuff onto piece of hand towel paper(?) and let it dry for few days,
dreaming an experiment each night. Each time it was about 1ccm nonpressed, and the bangs strength (?) increased every
time, until I ran out of the chemical.
On friday eve I filtered rest of the AP from my beaker and did all the neutralizations and etc. This time I put it onto piece of
newspaper, and the difference in drying time was incredible. First batch dried for five days, but this gave same bang after 24H.
The bang was quite similar to firing of .308 rifle, maybe little weaker, but not much.
I put one cracker (~1ccm again) into a corner of a big stone, and it blew ~15cm shard of granite away. I have an crappy video
and some pictures about that (isn't it funny how you can record your dreams). Another thing I dreamed was a plastic model
plane with little more than 1ccm in its frame. I didn't find any shrapnels of it, it was like it just had decided to disappear
leaving an loud bang and quite big crater into soft snow behind. Is this normal power of AP?
Sonny Jim March 15th, 2004, 01:48 PM

I hope new people to AP will find this helpful:
http://angry_jack.tripod.com/apstuff.WMV
I made a little movie with two impact sensetivity tests, and a final detonation of 0.5g of AP contained in a felt pen case. It
might help some people get a feel for how properly prepared, neutralised AP behaves. I will not comment on the sensetivity,
but will allow you to draw your own conclusions.
Yeah, before you all ask, the 'fuse' is a sparkler. Laugh all you want, but I find them quite reliable. All you need to do is place
a little barrier of tape between the sparks produced and the primary. The total retreat time there was bang on 30 seconds. The
detonation blew a hole through a plastic calculator backing, so easily enough to cause some nasty damage to the hands!
Myrol March 17th, 2004, 08:58 AM

Sonny Jim: The Vid is really cool :cool: I watched it sometimes because its a nice fun to see how your Hand-and-the-Hammer
plays with the "prepared" Coin! You struck and struck and struck it and PAAMM it went off :D You must really live in America
because the Hammer you have looks like solid quality! Here in Germany there often 0815......Thin Woodcylinder and an easy
made Metalhead :rolleyes: Arrggh Damnit! They safe the Materials everytime at the wrong Corners :( Thats annoying! America
is much better!
MightyQuinn April 9th, 2004, 04:44 AM

........ 3% untill you have had high conc, H2O2. The yeilds are amazing its like a slurpie (frozen coke) of AP......
Dream hell.....this is like a nightmare. :eek:
Holy Shit! You got that right! I made my first batch tonight (roughly 50ml Acetone --> 50ml 35% H2O2 and 20ml of 32%
Muriatic. After less than an hour I have a thick white slurry in the vessel. I am going up stairs to take a picture of it now. I was
not planning on taking any, but this is fucking amazing me.
Considering how dangerous AP is and judging by what I am going to get from this small (for a beginner) batch I can see why
people get hurt.
I am more afraid now than ever......I think they call it respect. Not to mention the woody you get when you look in the fridge
and see the fruits of research.
There is going to be one LOUD bang at the gun range tomorrow. I wish to get rid of it all post haste. I will document it.
I am going upstairs to be very careful right now.
**Total processing time: Approx. 4 Hours.**
Edit to add images: Here are the links to the full images. (They are full sized images ie.Large! If you have a slow connection,
don't click on them.)
http://www.50caliber.net/science/
http://www.50caliber.net/science/slurry1.jpg
http://www.50caliber.net/science/pile_drying_large
Arthis April 9th, 2004, 09:43 AM

That's cool for you MightyQuinn, but that's not a fuck lot of AP. You're right accidents come from the fact it's easy to make
large quantities, and easy to use it without precautions. Though you shouldn't be too scared of the 20 gr dry AP you'll get. In
your batch there are no risks, wet AP wouldn't even burn.
And maybe you could scale your pictures down, as there's no need for a 1600*1200 picture of a beaker. That is pretty
common.
--------------
Hey the new PDF version is released :). This has been a long time since I had to modify it, but as I'm working far away I didn't
have the internet at homr so that was just difficult. For the holidays I updated the whole stuff, better presentation and more
accurate information (acids for example).
I still don't have a camera so there aren't pictures so far, but I'll try to add some soon.
Moreover, if someone has the motivation to make an article, about a precise point of AP, like plastification, or whatever, and
wants to help me to complete this manual, I would be pleased to insert your article, or ideas. Feel free to give your help.
Btw, if other people got the motivation to prepare such a file on another explosive, it would start a collection of precise, easy-
to-use guides everyone would enjoy.
matjaz April 9th, 2004, 11:04 AM

Nice work.
Fix the second (trimeric) equation with a "3" in front of the water molecule.
I'd really like to believe that the H2O2 concentration just influences the reaction rate, but I really had yields seem to level off
low with 12% peroxide after a few days. Couldn't it be something with chemical equilibrium (I'm getting a bit rusty on this)?
BTW, what is the yield you normally get?
Arthis April 9th, 2004, 11:20 AM

The fact that the reaction works while greatly diluted has made people think there's no difference, compared to PETN, for
example, where a little too diluted acid makes the reaction fail. But in fact of course the less water you have the better results.
Even if AP is non soluble in water (less than 2 gr per liter), the reaction may not be complete; you need the complete steps of
reaction, including the acid catalyst for you to know where the reaction is less efficient while diluted.
I'm making a batch of AP right now just to give an idea of the yield you can get/except, not that I'm a reference, but everyone
can give his method/yield for us to compare.
The method I followed is:

100 mL 35% H2O2
80 mL acetone
30 mL 30% H2SO4
(when diluted sulfuric is easier to add)
I put the acid and the H2O2/acetone mix in the freezer, then slowly add the acid, monitoring the temperature for it not to rise.
After each addition I put the beakers back into the freezer.
The acid is added over a period of one hour approximately.
Ho shit I remember I don't have my scale, hmm mybe I'll try to weight it with another one, but it won't be so precise.
Anyway...
MightyQuinn April 14th, 2004, 11:46 PM

That's cool for you MightyQuinn, but that's not a fuck lot of AP. ........ Though you shouldn't be too scared of the 20 gr dry AP
you'll get. In your batch there are no risks, wet AP wouldn't even burn.
....said the one handed, former pyrotechnic hobbyist.....LOL Couldn't resist! :D
I actually got 48 grams (totally dry) in 2 batches (same proportions) that time. The second batch was left over night in the
fridge and had to be removed from the glass with a spatula. It would not pour. My fridge holds at around 33F
I have been busy carrying out tests of its sensitivity in the basement. I have mainly been scattering small lots (.05g to.25g
roughly) and tapping repeatedly with a hammer. After a few hits (after the crystals are one layer) I get a nice *bang.* ( I
advise hearing protection ;) ) I am deducing from this that I have made very fine crystals which is a good thing. I have lit a
few little sprinkles and have gotten nice little fireballs. I have not progressed to anything bigger for now and my trip to the
range I was to have was cut short.
I *AM* charging the camcorder for a weekend trip to some distant strip mines :D This is where I can break out the "big" toys
without fear of trouble. I am going to make molded AP with smokeless pulled from some old (circa 1953) 8mm ammo and
acetone. I may also mix AP with some PVC cement for kicks too
And maybe you could scale your pictures down, as there's no need for a 1600*1200 picture of a beaker. That is pretty
common.
They are that way for a couple of people I know off board....they all have high-speed internet access and like the full sized
images. I re-labeled them for dialup users. ;)
As a side question ..can someon e tell me if AP is in th e slightest hyg roscopic?

But in fact of course the less water you have the better results. Even if AP is non soluble in water (less than 2 gr per liter), the
reaction may not be complete; you need the complete steps of reaction, including the acid catalyst for you to know where the
reaction is less efficient while diluted.
Huh, it must be my english... what exactly did you mean (from the semicolon on)?

AP is not hygroscopic, not even slightly.

I thoug ht I would share the results of me disposing of the AP I made above. I know it s b een covered, but I am trying to
contribute information that I gain in my travels.
Yesterday I hit the range with 90 odd grams of very dry AP. I divided it up in the following tests: 6 grams in a film container,
then 5 grams in pile struck with shovel and 75+ grams in a 1LB ricotta cheese plastic tub w/ lid. I also had a couple of
crackers I made from DBSP + AP + aceto ne to ge t it all gooey .filled 2 pen ca ps (Approx. 1g each) a nd inserted fuses, dried
for 4 days then wrapped in electrical tape I left the remaining mixture in a blob on a coffee filter on my work bench to
dry .once d ry I tape d som e visco to it and completely coated with tape to a void premature detonation from fuse sp arks.
I will make no excuses, but my dreams could not be documented (audio/visually) yesterday. I will have a couple of basic
pictures to add to the report later.
First tests were the little crackers .all worke d all were k ind of uneve ntful .won t bother repeating the trouble of diss olving DBSP
again, but for party favors in the name of science, they work. I used a fuse for the film vial and got a fairly sharp crack for a
report but not really loud.
So th en my buddy starts giving me shit abou t the tiny crackers and te lls me to g ive him a pile on the concre te to s mack with
a h a m m e r ..well he picks u p my s p a d e handle s hovel and I do le him out about a pea-sized amount of AP. He smacks it, but
not square, nada .hits it a few mo re times then jus t starts to scrape it in to the concrete making small sparks. Well, this
causes uproarious laughter as I have been warning my buddies about the amount of danger you are in when handling,
transferring, etc.
Newbs reading this pay CLOSE attention to the following. Hindsight dictates that repeating the following would be considered
k3vvL
After the laugh-fest, I doled him out a manly sized pile I would g uess was between 3-5 grams. My buddy h it it with ONE love
tap (seemingly) and it went BOOM. My buddy forgot to put his plugs back in after giving me shit and got the full monty of
sound. :eek: We were only about 4 feet away.
We all agreed that the detonation was similar in loudness to the .50CAL BMG we had been shooting all day minus the pressure
wave you get 30 degrees behind a .50 with a muzzle brake (200+ grains of slow powder). My buddy took a surprising amount
of shock to the forward (right) hand holding the shovel and reported tingling and numbness. Upon closer inspection (pictures
forthcoming), I noticed that my formerly new (sans lite oxide coating) shovel felt like a 20 year old shovel!! It dented the
underside of the shovel blade and was powerful enough to actually loosen the metal on the shovel. The split up the back of a
typical shovel had been widened and considerable amount and the rivet is totally loose!! He will NOT be repeating it needles to
say.
I walked the 75g tub out to the rail track at 100 ya rds an d set it off th e ground with a small chunk of 1.5 cast steel. I placed
a 5X7 chunk of the same 1.5 cast steel betwee n the tub and the rail to make a nice solid target to shoot at I hit it with an
8mm bullet and it went BOOM! WAY more powerful that I could have hoped! It was dark out (we were packing up to go) and I
saw a slight flash and a few sparks (reminded me of embers floating up from a fire pit)
I walked out to survey the site and my ja w dropped .the cast steel behind th e tub wa s g o n e ..I looked all over and a ll I fou nd
was one little piece. You could tell by the clean metal exposed that the 1.5 thick piece of metal SHATTERED! I KNOW the
bullet didn t shatter the steel as it s MADE to be a target .the AP did it. I am in awe of the power of e nergetic materials I WILL
be taking more forays to the range as the nicer weather will permit and I will have the cameras rolling.
sevin August 26th, 2004, 01:01 AM

Question:
Is HCl faster or slower than H2SO4 in making the AP precipitate?
Arthis August 31st, 2004, 09:00 AM

Sulfuric acid makes a local boiling when a drop falls in the acetone/h2o2 mix, while hydrochloric acid doesn't, so I guess
H2SO4 makes the reaction faster...
Guess though, just try by yourself and tell us !
freaky_frank August 31st, 2004, 06:21 PM

it depends on the concentration.
But in general H2SO4 is a stronger acid, so it will react more heavily...
Cyclonite September 1st, 2004, 07:34 AM

You really should not add concentrated H2SO4, its causes heat which is undesirable to AP production. I always use HCL as its
easier to get, costs less and does not cause as much heat.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > NaNO 3 explosives - Archive File
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megalomania June 9th, 2003, 05:49 PM

TylerDurden
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From :
posted 05-20-2001 07:11 AM
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I read a Germ an article som ewhere where they talk about inm a t e s m a k i n g e x p l o s i v e s / w e a p o n s f r o m all kinds of stuff they can
find inside the jail. And it said that when they could get "pokelsalz" and "amandelarom a" out of the kitchen they could m a k e
an explosive with the power of TNT. I think "pokelsalz" is NaNO3 (or NaNO2?) and "am andelaroma" is a flavor consisting of
benzaldehyde.
S o m y q u e s t i o n i s i f o n e c a n m a k e a H . E . o u t o f t h e s e i n g r e d i e n ts.
And are there any other m ixtures with NaNO 3 that produce a high explosive? And are they capsensitive and what's the VoD?
[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited May 20, 2001).]
eNt0n
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Posts: 19
From :
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-20-2001 01:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, I found that recipe, too. It was in "Der Spiegel" a germ an n ewsm agazine. I tried it, by mixing different sizes of NaNO 3
with this "ma ndelaroma". Tried fille it into CO2 catriges, filled it in pipebombs. No detonation/ignition when a fuse is used. Also
n o e x p l o s i o n when a detonator is used. I don't think that this co uld work. Maybe som eone gots a better result.
Cipolla
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From :
posted 05-20-2001 06:36 PM
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I t h i n k M a n d e l a r o m a could also be nitrobenzene, which smells like alm onds. Ok, its toxic, but I think m ixing Nitrobenzene with
not too m u c h P k e l s a l z c o u l d f o r m a n e x p l o s i v e . R e m e m b e r , e v e n d i n i t r o s o b e n z e n e i s a n e x p l o s i v e , n o t m u c h i m p r e s s e d o f
its low oxyge n conten t.
Jumala
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From : Germ a n y
posted 05-20-2001 09:47 PM
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Pkelsalz or pickle salt is KNO 3. You can buy it sometim es at su perm arkets. But today it isnt in use because it can form
nitrosamine and they are cancerogene.
I think m a k i n g e x p l o s i v e s f r o m those contents is bullsh it.
If it would be possible it would be a we ll known method today and why should anyone m ake TNT when NaNO3/KNO3 and arom e
work as good.
Pickle salt insnt used in jails.

Only in som e TV film s .
CodeMason
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posted 05-20-2001 11:45 PM
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"Pokelsalz" translates to saltp eter, and that m eans it's . They use KNO3 as a preservative for sausages, ch ille, pickles, etc.
" M a n d e l a r o m a" translates to "alm o n d f l a v o u r " . I t h i n k s o m e o n e m entioned that this may contain nitrobenzene.
Nitrobenzene is an explosive that is sim ilar to nitromethane. The KNO3 could act as the sensitizer, but I seriously doubt it. Plus
the nitrobenzene wou ld be seriously diluted, probably less than 0.1%, so it would be worthless. Even if it was PURE
n i t r o b e n z e n e , t h e y ' d o n l y h a v e e n o u g h t o m a k e a s m all firecracker. Then there's the problem of a detonator. So it sounds like
bullshit to me.
The writers of the article probably looked at a sheet of chemicals that are used to m a k e " e x p l o s i v e s " , s a w p o t a s s i u m nitrate
a n d n i t r o b e n z e n e o n t h e r e , l o o k e d a r o u n d i n a b i g k i t c h e n a n d f o u n d s t u f f c o n t a i n i n g t h e m , and p roclaimed that prisoners
breaking into prison kitchens could m a k e h i g h e x p l o s i v e s ! H a r d l y .
A more realistic scenario, is th e convict steals som e H 2 O 2 f r o m t h e m edical room, then from the art room (supposing it's a
"well off" prison), steals some acetone , and then from the supply closet steals so me HCl. And then... O r maybe iodine crystals
and cleaning am monia.
TylerDurden
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From :
posted 05-21-2001 06:19 AM
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OK, thanks. It was a serious article so I though t there m i g h t b e s o m e truth in it. But I also know that when they talk about (the
m anufacturing of) explosives (or drugs) in the m edia they (alm ost) never give good inform ation, even if they know it (and the
s a m e with books and m ovies: it's m ostly plain bullshit).
But I thought that this might be an exception because it was in a serious newspaper and I had some other inform a t i o n a b o u t
NaNO3/KNO3 explosives. Although this information was also not very reliable: it was the book of Seym our Lecker about
im provised e xplosives (he confuses a detonator with an ignitor: he describes a "detonator" made from a s m all bottle filled with
m a t c h h e a d s . A n d h e d e s c r i b e s e x p l o s i v e s m i x t u r e s m ade of KNO3 (with zinc dust for example) that can be "detonated" with
these bottles). Now I know this is not going to work (although they (probably) will explode) but ma ybe they m i g h t d e t o n a t e
when real detonators are used and the m ixture s are confined. So that's why I asked.
TylerDurden
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Posts: 94
From :
posted 05-24-2001 02:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e r e I S s o m e truth in it! I found two m ixtures labelled as flashpowder containing nitrates: the first is a m ixture of 6 gram of
NaNO3 with 1 gram of m a g n e s i u m powder and the second is a m ixture of 4 parts BaNO3, 2 parts Alum inium powder and 1 part
Sulp hur.
These mixtures burn very fast unconfined and produce a bright flash of light. W hen confin ed they m ight even detonate when
i g n i t e d b y f u s e , l i k e s o m e o t h er flashpowder m ixtures but I'm not sure. But they probably will deto nate when heavy confined
and/or set off with a detonator.
So nitrates C AN be used to m a k e / i m p r o v i s e p o w e r f u l ( d e t o n a t i n g ) e x p l o s i v e s , b y a d d i n g s o m e m e tal powder.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > H2O2 Explosive - Archive File
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Bomberman
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posted 05-20-2001 07:19 PM
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This explosive is about as blow up strong as
Nitroglycerin to manufacture but substantially more easily. During
contact with metals or activated charcoal strong decomposition and
also inflammation steps.
First one must concentrate the trade-usual 30% H2O2 on over 80%, in
addition heating it up simply in a clean evaporation bowl on at the
most 60 and evaporating around approximately 2/3, one tests the H2O2
by one something handkerchief thereby traengt and ignites, it must
without problems burn-off down. Now one takes the highly concentrated still hot H2O2 and solve in 80ml from this 8g strength
and 12g vaseline. You mixes everything, and it
results in a thick paste. This can be detonated with HMTD problem-free. I blew up with 50ml of this mix, and over a 1
meter hole results, the dirt flew about 30 meters far away.
Naturally with
electrical ignition
Translated with Alta Vista
BoB-
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From:
posted 05-20-2001 09:10 PM
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WTF? I really didnt understand much of that man, H2o2 and vaseline? Are those the only constituents?
Agent Blak
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From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-20-2001 11:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
peroxide by nature are unstable.
So would it break down as such;
2H2O2---> H2O + O2
?
I don't know how useful it would be as it would do nasty things to metal and I don't wish to think about what it would do to
skin. also you are let with a liquid corect? wIf you mix a Liquid with a jelly you will get a thin jelly; Think if this does indeed
work that it would better if it was of stiffer consistencey.
------------------
c0deblue
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From:
posted 05-21-2001 12:09 AM
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The translation is confusing, and an important component seems to be missing. Also, I've never heard it was possible to
concentrate H2O2 to 80% by heating it, and wouldn't mixing 80% H2O2 with a petroleum based substance be pretty
dangerous?
I know it's difficult when you have to use machine translations, but could you try to give us more details?
Bomberman
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From:
posted 05-21-2001 08:26 AM
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You heat the 30% H2O2 and first the water evaporates, because water evaporates at 100C, the H2O2 evaporates at 150C
therefore the water evaporates at first, then the H2O2 at last.
For example Potasiumchlorate with 10% of Vaseline is an explosive too, but H2O2 ist for self an explosive. 100% H2O2 for
example ist an high Explosive. Mixtures with H2O2 are so similar as mixtures with liquid air, but not as strong as these. The
lead block test with the H2O2, vaseline and strength resulted 500ccm.
highly concentrated H2O2 holds about 5 hours at 20C, at -18C you can use it several weeks
bye
PS: The strengthens thicken the mix to a thin paste
[This message has been edited by Bomberman (edited May 21, 2001).]
wantsomfet
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Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 05-21-2001 08:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"solve in 80ml from this 8g strength and 12g vaseline. "
I suppose you meant adding 8g starch (german: Strke) ?
------------------
kangaroooo.cjb.net
PHILOU Zrealone
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posted 05-21-2001 09:42 AM
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Yes heat and peroxydes....I doubt about this maybe under vaccum since then with a little to no heat you could distill water off
remaining with mainly H2O2!
No doubt this kind of LOX can be powefull but much less than the equivalent weight of CTAP!
Now a little mathematics and chemistry!
80g H2O2 (80%) is equivalent to 64g H2O2 100%
and thus contains 1.882 moles of H2O2 that can liberate 0.941 mole O2!
Assuming the general formula for vaseline to be H-(CH2)n-H since it is an alcanic/oleofinic compound; then its molar weight is
(2+n*(14))g/mole; neglecting the 2 from the two external H's we have n*14!
We then need per CH2 (14g/mole) 1.5moles of O2; you of course understand that 14g is the weight of 1/n th of one mole of
(CH2)n and that
CH2 + 3/2O2 --> CO2 + H2O
Now considering the 12g of vaseline, you would need at least minimum 12/14 * 1.5mole O2 = 1.286 mole O2 that's much
more than the 0.941 we have found before!
Also the 8g strenght (I supose it is a thickener) must be also a fuel and therefore would also need oxygen increasing also the
quantity of O2 needed!
One more point that is important here:
The raction must be not very hot since for 100g of mix, you have to vaporise 80-64g of unoxygenated water (16g) and also
the 18g*1.882 moles of water coming from the decomposition of 64g H2O2 into water (33.876g); total of water to boil/100g is
thus 49.876g....that's a lot near 50% and you expect this to be very powerful??
I think that you must be wrong somewhere!
-by omitting something important for this to be correct!
-a simple typo error or a source error!
-maybe you tell us some beautiful fairytale!
I doubt that 100g of such a mix can make a 1 meter diameter crater except maybe on the surface of a fluchy mud...what
about the depht of the hole????
Who has another or the same point of view?
------------------
eNt0n
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Posts: 19
From:
posted 05-21-2001 10:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, H2O2 ist a very good high explosive.
The russians are using it in their torpedos. By mixing it with the russian type of JP-5 (jet petrol) it is their petrol for torpedos.
But the H2O2 must be over 90%. A very unstable mix, which might have sunk the KURSK. Also, my father told me, that 90%
H2O2 was used in rocketengines. Very bad idea...
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-21-2001 11:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A much better HE would be
*N2O4 and CS2
*N2H4 and C(NO2)4
*DNT and N2O4
*HNO3 and CH2(CN)2
*HNO3 and CH(CN)3
The best would be
C(NO2)4 + C(CN)4
Yes all are as unstable as your 90-99% H2O2 + fuel thickener mix!
Maybe the mix is only used as a propellant in torpedoes since you shouldn't expect a higher VOD than 3500m/s (it would give
torpedoes that doesn't dig holes in metal (you need at least 7000m/s to make a hole in metal with a shaped charge)!
------------------
Bomberman
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From:
posted 05-21-2001 01:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know how much concentrated my H2O2 was, i think over 80% perhaps over 90%
Yes I mean starch (Strke) In the book i fount this, they use Cutton (Baumwolle) But I think its the Same.
I have put 50ml of the mix in a PP Pipe, and i Detonated it with 2g HMTD. And yes it makes an 1 meter diameter crater, but
the hole wasn't very deep, perhaps 30cm. The mud flew very far away.
At the concentration of the H2O2 at 60C naturally something goes away, but only insignificantly little
Tries out it simply times, I can only say like well it worked at me
1. Heat H2O2 30% at 60 until 2/3 or 3/4 is evaporated (toxic fumes)

2. Drop some H2O2 on a Paper ant test if it burns very good
3. Dissolve in 80ml H2O2 (high concentrated) 12g vaseline and 8g starch
4. Detonate it with a strong Detonator in a non metallically thin, or burn something down with a flame, it burns very god, like
Nitroglycerine
please excuses my bad English : -)
simply RED
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Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 05-21-2001 05:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N2O4 and CS2 gives a stable explosive
RESULTS:
1. Sen sitivity to impact. , When tested by means of the Bureau o f Mines apparatu s us ing a 500 gm. weight the following
heights of fall were required to cause explosion:
Myrite (2 vols. N2O4: 1 vol. CS2) 100 cms.

Myrite (1 vol. N2O4 : 1 vol. CS2) 100 cms.
These values are to be compared with a value of 70 gms. for nitroglycerin (Ind. & Eng Chem., 19,927 (1927)). When tested
with a 2 Kg. weight the following values were obtained:
Myrite (3 vols. N2O4 : 1 vol CS2 ).......100 cms.

Myrite (1 vol. N2O4 : 1 vol. CS2 ).......100 cms.
TNT . 100 cms.
Picric acid. 61 cms.
Tetryl. 50 cms.
It is unfortunately less powerful than TNT...
-A-
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Posts: 100
From:
posted 05-22-2001 12:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concentrating H2O2 by evaporating water on heating?. Excuse me but I don't think this will work. H2O2 would decompose. And
I think you won't get as high as 80% concentration under normal conditions because the mix water H2O2 is an azeotrope, isn't
it?.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-23-2001 05:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Strange!
1. Sensitivity to impact. With the BOM apparatus gives:
Myrite (2V/1V N2O4-CS2):100 cms.
Myrite (1V/1V N2O4-CS2):100 cms.
-That means impact sensitivity is 5Nm!
(500g*1kg/1000g*10N/kg*100cm*1m/100cm= 0.5kg*10N/kg*1m=5Nm)
These values are to be compared with a value of 70 gms. for nitroglycerin!
-This means an I.S. of 0.07kg*10N/kg*1m= 0.7Nm!
Then When tested with a 2 Kg. weight the following values were obtained:
Myrite (3V/1V N2O4-CS2 ):100 cms.
Myrite (1V/1V N2O4-CS2 ):100 cms.
TNT:100 cms.
-This means 2kg*10N/kg*1m= 20Nm!!!!
Picric acid:61 cms.

-This means 2*10*0.61 Nm= 12.2 Nm
Tetryl:50 cms.
-This means 2*10*0.5 Nm= 10 Nm
It is unfortunately less powerful than TNT...

-???How can you tell from this tables?
****Here are my objections!****

-For two same explosives Myrite 1-1 you have two different impact sensitivities 5 and 20!
-Different mixes of myrite have the same I.S. what is strange!
-Nitroglycerin has an I.S. of 0.2Nm!
------------------
Bomberman
New Member
Posts: 6
From:
posted 05-23-2001 06:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I test it, and it works! The H2O2 concentrate at 70-90%. I dont know how much concentation the H2O2 have, but in the mix, it
is a very powerful Explosive.
Test it, and you would see that it works well
bye
PS: You can't say that it not works if you not tested it
[This message has been edited by Bomberman (edited May 23, 2001).]
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 05-23-2001 09:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the whole document on Myrithe, it is originally posted in alt.engr.explosives by donald haarman.
P.A. Technical Report No. 10301
Picatinny Arsenal, Dover N.J.
March 6, 1940.
SYNOPSIS
Myrite, an explosive comprising a mixture of nitrogen dioxide and carbon bisulphide was subjected to various tests to
determine its sensitivity to mechanical influences, brisance, rate of detonation, and other explosive characteristics. The data
obtained from these tests indicated that Myrite is sensitive to rifle bullet impact and has a rate of detonation and brisance
considerably lower than the benzene analites.
In view of the fact that Myrite is especially sensitive to rifle bullet impact and has no higher brisance than TNT, it is concluded
that its explosive characteristics are not sufficiently favorable to warrant its use for military purposes.
TECHNICAL GROUP
CHEMICAL DEPARTMENT
CHEMICAL ENJOINING DIVISION
Investigation Of the Explosive "Myrite".
First and Final Report,
INTRODUCTION:
1. In correspondence 0.0. 471.86/4415. P.A. 471,86/659 it was requested that the Arsenal conduct tests to determine the
explosive characteristics of an explosive called "Myrite." This explosive is a mixture of liquid nitrogen dioxide and carbon
bisulphide. Mr. E. B, Myers, the developer of this mixture as a fuel in airplane motors claimed that it was a powerful explosive,
easily detonated but insensitive to mechanical Influences.
OBJECT:
2. To determine the sensitivity, brisance rate of detonation and other explosive characteristics of Myrite.
3. Myrite (2:1) was only slightly less sensitive to impact than nitroglycerine, Myrite (3:1 and 1:1) was less sensitive to Impact
than picric acid or tetryl, being comparable to TNT.
4. Myrite, (2:1) did not explode When heated to 600oC.
5. Myrite (2:1) burned slowly when ignited by the flame from a black powder fuze.
6. Calculations showed Myrite (2:1) to have less potential than either nitrobenzene analite or benzene analite. Detailed
discussion of the above characteristics are given in Chemical Laboratory Report No. 62089 attached.
7. Myrite was loaded into 2 x 3 Inch pipe bombs and subjected to the rifle bullet impact test, The following results were
obtained:
[Page 2 missing!]
REPORT FROM THE CHEMICAL LABORATORY

PICATINNY ARSENAL DOVER N. J.
February 20, 1940
Report NO. 62089
Re: Myrite Explosive (Nitrogen Peroxide-Carbon Bisulphide)
OBJECT:
To determine the sensitivity characteristics of Myrite Explosives
To calculate the explosive characteristics of Myrite Explosives.
RESULTS:
1. Sen sitivity to impact. , When tested by means of the Bureau o f Mines apparatu s us ing a 500 gm. weight the following
heights of fall were required to cause explosion:
Myrite (2 vols. N2O4: 1 vol. CS2) 100 cms.

Myrite (1 vol. N2O4 : 1 vol. CS2) 100 cms.
These values are to be compared with a value of 70 gms. for nitroglycerin (Ind. & Eng Chem., 19,927 (1927)). When tested
with a 2 Kg. weight the following values were obtained:
Myrite (3 vols. N2O4 : 1 vol CS2 ).......100 cms.

Myrite (1 vol. N2O4 : 1 vol. CS2 ).......100 cms.
TNT . 100 cms.
Picric acid. 61 cms.
Tetryl. 50 cms.
2. Explosion Temperature.- Myrite Explosive consisting of 2 parts by volume of nitrogen peroxide and 1 part by volume of
carbon bisulphide did not explode when heated suddenly to temperatures an high as 600oC.
3. Stability Myrite Explosive (2:1) burned slowly when subjected to a spit of flame from a black--powder fuse, the explosive
being held in a blasting cap and the fuse crimped into this so that the end of the fuse was not in contact with the liquid. When
the end of the fuse was in contact with the liquid,, the fuse was extinguished.
4. Explosive Characteristics.- By calculation of the explosive characteristics of Myrite Explosive (2:1) by the methods given in
"Notes of Analite" (C.O. 471.86/2120) there were obtained the following values, which are given in comparison with similar
values for nitrobenzene and benzene Analites.
Myrite NB Analite Benzene Anilite

Heat of Explosion, cal./gm .. 1055 .. 1771 . 1814
Volume of Ga ses, liters/kg. ..514.7 .. 659 ... 673
Temperature of Explosion, oC . 2533 .. 5396 .. 3731
Potential, Q, meter-ton/gm .. 446 .. 752 771
Coefficient, f, kgs. .. 5465 . 9897 1019 6
5. Oxygen balanced Myrite.- 2:1 Myrite Explosive contains more oxygen than required to oxidize all carbon and sulphur to
their dioxides. It was calculated that a mixture containing 56.6 per cent of nitrogen peroxide and 43.4 per cant of carbon
bisulphide by volume would contain sufficient oxygen to oxidize all carbon to carbon monoxide and sulphur to sulphur dioxide.
It was calculated that this mixture would have a beat of explosion of 1013 cal/gm.
REMARKS
From the foregoing data it In apparent that Myrite Explosive (2:1) is of the same order of sensitivity as nitroglycerin but it is
slightly less sensitive. The other two Myrite, mixtures are of the sane order of sensitivity an trinitrotoluene.
When compared with Anilites containing nitrobenzene or benzene, calculations show Myrite explosive (2:1) to be a much less
powerful explosive than either of the Anilites.
NOTES:
Nitrogen peroxide undergoes dissociation with increase In temperature. At 20oC. the material consists of approximately 72%
N204 and 28% NO2 . This is pf some significance as the heat of formation of the material changes with change in composition.
The x reaction of 2:1 Myrite is shown by the equation:
CS2 + 1.4 N2O4 + 1.1 NO2 ---> CO2 + 2 SO2 + 0.09 O2 + 267.63 Kg. cal. -22.0 -2.6 -8.7 94.4 138.6
The explosive reaction of Myrite containing 56% nitrogen peroxide and 43.4% carbon bisulphide by volume is shown by the
equation:
CS2 + 0.8974 N2O4 + 0.7051 NO2 ---> CO + 2 SO2 + 1.2496 N2 + 193.6 Kg. cal.
-22.0 -1.669 -5.239 26.1 138.9
Submitted:
J. D. Hooper,
Ass't Chemist
Approved:
Wm H. Rinkenbach,
Chief Chemist
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-23-2001 12:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you I like those kinds of info's!
But stil I find anoying that myrite 2/1 is said to be as to a little less sensitive than nitroglycerine and we see a 100cm
fallhamer of 500g!
Also it is compared with benzene/N2O4 and with nitrobenzene/N2O4 that are more powerful than TNT!
It may be less brisant than TNT but may have better other properties like VOD, volume of detonation gases,...
Also since this is no nuclear reaction...it must contain N in the second member of the equation!
CS2 + 1.4 N2O4 + 1.1 NO2 ---> CO2 + 2 SO2 + 0.09 O2 + 267.63 Kg. cal. -22.0 -2.6 -8.7 94.4 138.6
I think that there must be some typo error in the text!
jfk June 9th, 2003, 11:14 PM

let me attempt to summarise that.
1. boil 50mL 30% H2O2, at about 60 degrees Celcius

2. when the solution has boiled down to 1/2(25mL) of its original volume, take it off the heat. (or take it off when a few mL's
on a piece of paper ignites, or something)
3. Mix with 8g starch (possibly cotton also) and 12g vasline (petrolium jelly)[sp]
4. use a blasting cap to detonate it (2g HTMD was sufficient)
NOTES:
1. The vapours from boiling are most likely NOT toxic (O2, H20) but there could be some vapourised H2O2 coming off as well,
so do it in a ventelated area
2. NASA uses a composite rocket fuel which consists of: 90% H2O2, 100% methanol, with a very low percent of Nitro Methane
as well.
3. The boiling point of water is 100 degrees, 150 for H2O2. Some H2O2 wil decompose - but the ammount you loose is of
negligable value in the long run.
4. you prolly should cool it before mixxing it with the starch and vaseline.
STORAGE:
stores for 5 hours at 20 degrees. (he never stated what happened after that 5 hours)
stores apparently for a few weks at -18 degrees which is the temperature of your average freezer.
THEORIES:
1. could possibly be as powerful, gram for gram as Trimeric Cycloacetone Peroxide (AP)
as for the myrite stuff, the thread was on H2O2 and vaseline so i didnt bother with those ones. funnily enough i havent tried
this before. i may invest some time into it.

Well it seems to somewhat weird, I never heard using h2o2 more than just oxydizer.
But we must note that its properties increase a lot when concentration reaches 70%.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/properties/thermo08b.gif
Therefore it may be possible that with 80% you have an powerful enough oxydizer to make a small explosive.
btw, h2o2 in rockets is true. Of course it was 100% for this kind of purpose.

Boiling H2O2 will cause decomposition, it will be decomposed even by light at room temperature!, thats why it is stored in dark
coloured bottles.

Heat and light are not the same. This is caused by UV rays too.
It decomposes but if the decomposition is slower than the distillation, you end up with purer H2O2.

Hydrogen Peroxide will break down very easily if distilled by conventional means. It can be concentrated by freezing up to 62%
at which point it forms an azeotropic mixture with water (see this (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=2401) thread). Distilling it further (approaching >90%) requires precise contol of temperature etc, nothing I can
see a hobby chemist achieving.
Edit: These threads may also be of interest- Thread A (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=848),

Thread B (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=561) .
Its been discussed...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Fulminating powder - Archive File
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Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-22-2001 12:44 AM
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I was told, many times, this substance was a high explosive that is why I list it here. What is the compound that forms that
makes it explode? Does anyone have any experience? For anyone out there that is unfamillar with the substance it is found in
Chemistry of Powder and Explosives. The ratio I use is 3 parts potassium nitrate, 2 parts potassium nitrate, 1 part sulfur.
While molten (it turns brown when heated) and if subjected to more heat or a naked flame it explodes with a loud report. It's
fun to make. BTW I did search the posts but I didn't find much of anything that helped. I am hoping for new info. Thanks.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
posted 05-22-2001 03:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The stuff you speak of is also called "yellow powder".
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was told, many times, this substance was a high explosive that is why I list it here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It does seem to detonate, but I'd have some reservations about calling it a high explosive, since it's a mixture and not a
compound.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the compound that forms that makes it explode?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really don't know. You will need to ask an expert like PHILOU.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone have any experience?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've made it a few times.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For anyone out there that is unfamillar with the substance it is found in Chemistry of Powder and Explosives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is also in a few other pyrotechnics "manuals".
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ratio I use is 3 parts potassium nitrate, 2 parts potassium nitrate, 1 part sulfur.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehe, I think you mean 3 parts KNO3, 2 parts KCO3 and 1 part S! And that's a pretty slow burning composition, only around 3
times as fast as black powder. The proper way is to gind together into a a very fine powder, 2 parts KNO3 and 1 part
carbonate, then taking 4.5 parts of this and mixing it with 1 part (seperately) finely powdered sulfur. This burns roughly 8
times faster than black powder, faster if molten.
Hope I've been of a little help.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
posted 05-22-2001 10:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Fallout85 and etc.,
3 parts KNO3, 2 parts KCO3 and 1 part S is the correct formula!
Make sure your Potassium Carbonate (KCO3) is VERY dry.
I put half a tea spoon full of this in a small 1.5 inch diameter metal globe and set it on a hot plate. It blew a hole right
through the bottom of the hot plate.
------------------
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-22-2001 10:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
only 3x faster than BP? sounds fast enough for you guy to use in firecrackers of Cater makers. From what I remember of the
previous discussions on fulminating powder or yellow powder is:
that if molten an actual explosive compond is formed, But it will not explode just dry mixed. I have never tried is so This is
what was said previously. The measurements were in weight(g) or volume(ml)? Please specify as the rule of thumb with pyro
and chem is weight but I just have to make sure for it was not stated.
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gcic
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: Germany
posted 05-22-2001 11:06 AM
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Do you actually know, that KCO3 doesn`t exist?
It must be K2CO3
Cipolla
New Member
Posts: 37
From:
posted 05-22-2001 12:11 PM
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Doesn't matter just as long as this crap burns slower than my grampa's denture everytime I test it.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-22-2001 03:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agent Black do you mean that it detonates?
Because KNO3 can't detonate right?
Can anyone tell me what the the Potassium Carbonate does in the mixture?
------------------
DarkAngel

Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-22-2001 04:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cipolla-It must be heated over a fire first.
BTW-It is supposed to form a compound. Potassium Polysulfide forms. This inturn is supposed to react with the Nitrate when
the highest temp. is reached. I could be wrong about the compound thing, but I have tried mixing Potassium Sulfide with
Potassium Nitrate. When ignited it burns fast, but when heated together it forms a truly explosive mixture. Like I said before I
could be wrong.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
posted 05-22-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read (in an msds i think) that sodium sulfide can decompose violently when subject to shock... I would think potassium
sulfide would do the same..
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-22-2001 05:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When to chemicals are heated together is forms different compounds. This changes the properties for different chemicals have
different properties. It is supposed to explode whether the author(original source) meant Detonate or not. Apparently it goes
off with a bang when unconfined this sound like it could be a candadate for detonation. I will have to have a dream involving
this controversial substance.
------------------
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-22-2001 06:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oops!! I guess I did put Potassium Nitrate twice in my first post! Yes, the correct ratio is 3 parts Potassium Nitrate, 2 parts
Potassium Carbonate, and 1 part Sulfur. Sorry for any confusion.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-22-2001 06:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
I have found it really works better if you melt the Sulfur and Potassium Carbonate together first to form Potassium
Polysulfide/s. This used to be called liver of Sulfur because of the color. It is hard to grind up though, but when mixed with the
Potassium Nitrate as already discribed it really works great!
------------------
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-22-2001 06:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks everybody! Keep posting!
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
posted 05-23-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done a few experiments with this (high) explosive. I found out if you add some al powder(around 5%) to this mix it will
detonate much greater. I have packed this explosive in al-foil and then after that placed it in the glowin coal. once I
detonated about 20gr. It blew up the whole fireplace. I found splintered pieces of glowing wood all over my garden. Some lay
over 20 meters away.
-does anyone know how sensitive it is when you have molten it together and then cooled it down?
------------------
good boy with bad ideas
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-23-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone know if this will work with sodium carbonate? All that happens is the mix burns up without melting fully (the sulphur
ignites), although the sodium carbonate may not have been dry, or is it's melting temp too high?
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-23-2001 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I get the same when I use the sodium compound. You may have to find potassium carbonate. You can buy it from
pyrotech.org or leach it from wood ashes. I've only ever bought it. I'm pretty sure it is less than $10 a pound and it works
great.
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-23-2001 05:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fresh maker- you know I've really never tested it after the heating process as far as sensitivity, but I don't think it is very
sensitive to shock. It is very spark sensitive though. Most of the time I blow it up molten and almost never save any.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-23-2001 07:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the arguement of wether it detonates or not...if Armstrong's mix classed as a High Explosive? Because if it is then this
could be easily. Anyone else.
------------------
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-24-2001 10:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
Potassium Carbonate can also be bought at Ceramic supply shops.
I also have never made it work with Sodium Nitrate and Sodium Carbonate, but others have clamed they have (SEE old posts).
Can anyone explain the chemistry of what is really happening with this mixture when it is melted and then explodes?
------------------
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 49
From:
posted 05-24-2001 04:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sodium carbonate should work if you dry it over a flame or in the oven. Soda, which is sold everywhere, contains a lot of water
(Na2CO3.10H2O). The volume will decrease a lot.
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-24-2001 04:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agent Blak- In Davis's book the definition of primary explosives is that primary explosives detonate and explode wether they
are confined or not, under the list of primaries is Armstrong's. Your probably right. Also, I'm sorry about the kewl post. I wasn't
thinking.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-24-2001 07:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what about AP..? I have seen my body touch of piles the size of the end of my finger with nothing more than a fire ball. The
putty is different thought. Under any type of confinement AP always makes a good report(ie. every tried wraping some in a
layer or so of Al Foil, and fuse it?).
------------------
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
posted 05-24-2001 08:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is Potassium Carbonate used in with the ceramic supplys with so I know what to ask for?
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-25-2001 10:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
Sealsix6, Potassium Carbonate is a
strong flux and can be used as a color
modifier in ceramic glazes.
Also many other chemicals can be purched at CERAMIC shops. Good ones may even sell Potassium Nitrate, Potassium
Dichromate, Many oxides (Iron, Chrome, copper, etc. ), and more!
Search the net for Ceramic chemicals and check your phone books!
------------------
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-25-2001 05:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone know if fulminating powder can be used to initiate other explosions? Please test it for me. If it can ititiate
somewhat insensite explosives you can bet it is a high explosive. And a tip use the faster burning formula.
Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-25-2001 06:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agent Blak- Wrapping it in foil and throwing it a big fire is really fun although since it is supposed to be hot to detonate, or
what ever, fusing really isn't an option. It still burns fast enough to explode the foil like a regular firecracker when cold, but it
isn't nearly as impressive. If you were fast you could stick a fuse in while it was hot. That could be very dangerous, because
the fuse might ignite and you wouldn't be able to hold the foil unless you had thick gloves.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-26-2001 07:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fulminating powder is not a practical HE and was little use other than a novelty or the dangerous act of melting and use the
solidified compound as a propellant. Although NBK2000 did once suggest fixing a tin of the stuff to an exhaust manifold for a
car bomb.
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
posted 05-28-2001 09:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
has anybody had any success with the water activated fulminating powder the one with bismith and potassium tartarate,i read
somewhere you could get the bismith out of pepto bismol but i have had no luck,any ideas on a method for extracion
[This message has been edited by jin (edited May 29, 2001).]
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-30-2001 06:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Jin and others,
I have some more info on others that may be easier! I try to post them tonight!
FUMINATING POWDERS
1. Grind together 100 parts dried Antimony Potassium Tartrate (tartar emetic) , and 3 parts of lampblack, or charcoal powder.
Put this in a clay pot or better a crucible that has had the insides rubbed with charcoal dust.Cover the pot or crucible tightly,
then cover with a little more charcoal and heat at a high heat, via a blow torch or gas barbecue for 3 hours. Let cool at least 7
to 8 hours before opening. Quickly empty into a VERY dry airtight container. If all goes well, the above powder will FUMINATE
(explode) violently on contact with water! This is due to the presence of elemental Potassium in the mixture.
2. Another mixture is 100 parts Antimony, 75 parts Potassium Bitartrate (cream of tartar) roasted to blackness (carbureted),
and 12 parts lampblack or charcoal. Treat as above!
3. A third mixture is 60 parts Potassium Bitartrate (cream of tartar) roasted to blackness, 120 parts Bismuth, and 1 part
Potassium Nitrate (saltpeter). Also treat as in #1.
Dr_Pind November 6th, 2003, 04:55 PM

If this powder is a HE, couldn't it be used in detonators? One could make the potassium polysulfide and mix it with the KNO3
(and maby powdered Al) in very finely powdered form and then pres it into the cap, or how about casting it into the cap? I
guess this would make a more reliable detonation (could be dangerous though). This would be great for persons who doesn't
want to handle peroxides, or can't make em. Has anyone got any idea about the shelf-life? Sounds as if there is a lot of
potential in this mix. I'll do some experimenting soon!
Bert November 6th, 2003, 11:46 PM

Dr_Pind:
I've made this, back when I was playing around with such things. It is probably more dangerous to make (at least by the
method of heating all ingredients together!) than organic peroxides.
The second time I tried, I got a detonation in my face. Don't try more than a gram or so of this.
It may store better, but there's a good reason that it never caught on and fulminate/chlorate priming mixes DID.
Dr_Pind November 7th, 2003, 08:27 AM

How about pressing the mix of potassium polysulfide and KNO3 in the cap, and then melting (maby sintering) it remotely with
some sort of temperature control? I also got an idea while reading about this potassium polysulfide; could it be used as a
sensitizer in AN formulations or similar nitrate mixes?
I believe ,from what I hear, that this explosive is VERY brisant(splintering wood and blowing holes in tin cans)considering that
it is merely a simple mix! Sounds about as powerfull as AP! Also, the fact that it is able to explode in the open like AP, would
probably list it as a HE!(all though the velocity could be low). I DO believe that it could initiate other explosives, if not in the
form of a detonator, then in the form of a booster. If this isn't the case, one could always use it in salutes.
Also, I'm working on a balanced equation for a better mix than the simple 3:2:1 mix. This should give better performance. I'l
post it as soon as I've finished it.
Guerilla November 7th, 2003, 03:59 PM

How about pressing the mix of potassium polysulfide and KNO3 in the cap, and then melting (maby sintering) it remotely with
some sort of temperature control?
I think that would be even worse method than the original procedure which includes only one melting process. When the
carbonate and sulfur are reacted together with the KNO3, the heat will be used for both, to form the polysulfides and to melt
the nitrate. If you heat pre-made polysulphides with KNO3, it is more likely to explode before a uniform mixture is obtained,
as it would almost directly lead them to react together.
I have had hard time to successfully melt more than a few batches of yellow powder at a go, just when it have looked to be
completely melted, I've ended up with ringing ears..or it have only deflagrated. So temperature control alone wont help much,
unless you have an accurate and steadily warming heat source..
I doubt it will find use as a reliable initiator, simply because of the presence of the polysulfides. But these are only my humble
thoughts.. and no one has yet tried it so good luck for your experiments.
Marvin November 8th, 2003, 08:39 AM

Woah, now hold on there.
Yes it will explode unconfined, but only when hot/molten. When cold/granulated its just a pyrotechnic mixture.
The anhydrous sodium carbonate/sodium nitrate version works, its needs a fair amount of 'cooking' at a low temperature,
keeping it molten and mixing well before raising the temperature considerably will cause it to detonate. For the cooking stage
a very tiny flame worked best and doing it outside prooved impossible as the slightest draught interfered. The cooled powder
just before it would have detonated did not even burn well for me, and it absorbed water from the air very easily and gave off
H2S. At the time I was playing with this I couldnt get potassium carbonate, so I dont know how the K version reacts, anyone
care to fill in the gaps?
The bang even in small amounts is impressivly loud.
From memory the amounts are almost correct for forming potassium disulphide in the melt and its not clear if a particular
compound forms, though this is rather unlikley. More believeable is that the extreme incorperation of the liquids, beaten only
by same molecule oxidising/reducing groups, coupled with the high temperature and liquid state is what alows the mixture to
go high order.
Blackhawk November 8th, 2003, 08:57 PM

It seems that all the problems with premature detonation come when people are melting the polysulfide with the KNO3 mix,
people have talked about creating the polysulfide and then doing a recrystalisation with the KNO3 in water, I understand that
this won't work due the hydroscopic nature of the K2CO3, but how about simply ball-milling the polysulfide/KNO3 mix to get
the proper particle union, or am I missing something about a particular sensetivity to friction or a reaction between the KNO3
and the polysulfide mix when heated, ball milling will not produce a high a quality mixture as melting might but it would still
be usefull as a pyrotechnic composition if not a detonator. If I can get my hands on some K2CO3 I will try it, I have small
amounts of everthing else.
Marvin November 9th, 2003, 01:59 AM

Pot carbonate is essensially nolonger present in the polysulphide mix, but the sulphides themseves are water sensitive.
Ball milling wont work. Mixing 2 liquids gets you incorperation on a molecular scale. You cant even come close to that by
grinding powders.
On the brighter side, it should be possible to create a eutectic to force the mix to melt at a lower temperature. A mixture of
sodium and pot carbonates, and a mixture of sodium and pot nitrates for example. Equal molar amounts usually results in
typically the lowest temperatures from memory.
Blackhawk November 10th, 2003, 05:17 AM

Thats a good point, I suppose the heating can be made realitively safe by doing sub 1g ammounts and slowly heating on as
small a heat as possible, but from what I see the powder has little practical purpose anyway, aside from a suprisingly loud
bang, and the problems in manufacture make the comp more of a bragging substance than a pyrotechnic workhorse (like
TACN/TACC vs AP as far as primaries go)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > the best fireball fuel? - Archive File
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*EnemySuperstar*
New Member
Posts: 6
From:
posted 02-16-2001 03:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done a few experiments with gasoline fireballs etc. DAMn I like booom and the see the huge fireball disappear in the sky
But I miss the nice yellow/orange colour I have seen in the movies
What is the best LIQUID fuel for these fireballs? Does anyone have some tips they wanna share with a fellow pyro?
Bring it on!
Thanx to anyone who posts
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-16-2001 03:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SFX in films use "gasoline" for their FAE's.
*EnemySuperstar*
New Member
Posts: 6
From:
posted 02-16-2001 06:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony, is it normal gasoline or is there any chemical added?
I have used normal gasoline too, but the colour is very "bright" and the flames are "thin". On the movies they are orange and
quite "thick".
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-16-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They use several gallons at a time which would give a "deep" looking fireball.
If you're after the black fireballs that they use for aeroplane crashes then that is napthalene.
*EnemySuperstar*
New Member
Posts: 6
From:
posted 02-16-2001 06:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do they set it off - det. cord or.....
In that case, can I use AP?
Won't HE just blow the gasoline away with out igniting it?
What about flashpowder?
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 02-16-2001 07:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do a search for napthalene charges, this will give you the info you want to make a fireball.
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-16-2001 07:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ones I sawe used det. cord.
Do a search for "milk jug FAE" for more information on this subject.
*EnemySuperstar*
New Member
Posts: 6
From:
posted 02-16-2001 07:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J, I know about the naphtalene fireballs!
I asked about gasoline (liquid) fireballs!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-16-2001 07:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, the search engine is displaying the thread but the link is dead and it's no longer in the Improvised Weapons section (it
only displays 6 threads dated before 01/01/01!) It must have got moved to somewhere secret. Shame really, it would have
been a good read.
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
posted 02-17-2001 04:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yeah the ones ive seen are detcord strapped to a sealed pvc pipe. In the pipe is "petrol"
When it goes off it shaters the pipe, and spews kewl Fir3 every where (had to do that after seeing your last post)
*EnemySuperstar*
New Member
Posts: 6
From:
posted 02-17-2001 06:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm NOT kewlish
Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
From: The Netherlands
posted 02-17-2001 06:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw a docume ntary (m aster blasters, pretty lousy, real kewl ) on ex plos ives use d to create special effects in movies. They
placed a roll of det-cord (2 meters maybe) on the bottom of a drum and placed a plastic bag in the drum on top of the det-
cord in a garbage can like fashion. Then they completely filled the bag with gasoline, way too much if you ask me, but it gave
a huge orange smoking fireball. It was just plain gasoline. If it works with PETN than why not with any other HE?
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 02-17-2001 07:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough :-) IIRC, pyrotechnicians who produce fireballs in films use blackpowder and petrol. There is an art to getting it
right, and I don't know the exact method. Obviously the petrol must be sprayed into the air by the charge going off and
ignited. I guess that the effect is varied depending on how the petrol is dispersed and at what point it's ignited.
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 02-17-2001 09:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Morrigan i saw "Masterblasters" to i record the first+ the 2nd one but with my stupid head i overwrite them(JFC!!)
Very cool Tv shows,,Does someone else have seen it before?
atropine
Frequent Poster
Posts: 129
From: wales
posted 02-17-2001 10:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah i saw that. They were trieng to take out a building with it. They fired it through a window as i remember.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 02-17-2001 02:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good fireballs can be made my wrapping det cord around a milk jug full of gassoline. But i believe the one kurt saxon did is
much more feasible. Although i dont know why it is called a "FAE". Fuel, air, explosion. It just throws gassoline everywhere and
ignites it.
------------------
Explosives Archive
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 02-17-2001 05:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dunno what "masterblasters" you're talking about, but I saw this in the bahamas on TLC. Has anyone seen the episode in
which they detonate a massive sphere of TNT?
They used some C4 as a det.
I also saw on the program, they were detonating some ANFO charges underground to blast ridges or something, and the
detonators they used were bloody enourmous!!!!!!!! They were twice the size of a bean tin.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 02-17-2001 07:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The show is actaully called "blast masters". I havent seen it on tv for some time now. It is exactly waht blackbladder described
------------------
Explosives Archive
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 02-17-2001 11:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm just confused, Enemysuperstar, you say that you miss the "yellow/orange" fireballs in the movies....gasoline....does...burn
yellow/orange. BiG FuCin BOOOOOOOMMMM>>>>>!
In some movie effects now they've taken to using airline fuel in fae effects, its much 'brighter' than normal old gasoline and
the firballs remind me of butane burning.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 02-18-2001 06:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Butane can burn different colours, when burnt completely, you get a blue flame, but when not burnt you can get an orangey
sooty flame, sometimes it can be yellow.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 02-18-2001 07:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw masterblasters. They also had programs on demolition and a few other things. I think blast masters is a different thing,
because I never saw them detonate any TNT I don't think.
So is your problem that you want a deeper colour of flame? If so, why not try dissolving some napthalene in petrol? Varying
the concentration would vary the flame characteristics.
And how about getting one of those little N2O cylinders, putting a SMALL detonator on the seal, and placing it in a 2L bottle 2/
3rds full of petrol, with electrical detonation? It'd give it more oxidiser and produce a real FAE, not just a fireball. BUT if you
want a fireball then that's useless I suppose.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 02-18-2001 03:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
put that little bomb you just described into a building and it can knock the walls out like anything!
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 02-18-2001 09:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Think anfo could be used in a large FAE. Since large amounts of anfo must be detonated at a time, it may not be feasible.
But it would make a massive fireball due to the excess oxygen in an anfo detonation. Mabe a very thick, large water pipe
burried in the ground with an end pointing to the sky half full of anfo would be good. some flint could be placed ontop on top.
I beleive NBK came up with the flint idea. Perhaps small zip lock bags containg strike anywhere matches and sand could be
placed ontop of the anfo. Gallons Of gasoline would then be placed ontop of the pipe with a small standoff distance i suppose.
I would try these things if i wasnt located in the city. If this did work, i dont think it would make a real FAE because anfo doesnt
have that much excess oxygen. It would have just enough oxygen to give a rich flame.
Jhonbus
Frequent Poster
Posts: 351
From:
posted 02-19-2001 12:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would be interesting in using some kind of thixotropic (ie becomes less viscous under shock, like tomato ketchup) gelled
fuel, containing many tiny bubbles of oxygen gas, or other oxidising agent, Then when a large detonator is placed under it in
the manner described by Alengosvig1, It would become very thin and spray everywhere. Also the tiny bubbles would act in the
same manner as microspheres, becoming extremely hot under the shock wave and initiating ignition throughout the fuel. I
think this would produce a very good FAE.
Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
posted 02-19-2001 02:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wandering what would happen if a large amount of ANFO / ANNM with a small compressed oxygen cylinder inside it was
detonated in an oil drum full of gasoline?
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
posted 02-19-2001 05:17 PM
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I've tried two fireball effects with [a] BP and [b] AP. The one with BP, even though there was only about 200ml gasoline (I'm
using this word for the sake of the Americans) produced a small fireball, but the AP charge, which had more gasoline, failed to
ignite and the detonation just blew the gas sky high, coating the area with a smelly layer of fuel!
Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
posted 02-19-2001 07:54 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
those little N2O cylinders
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hehehe...i got some whippits coming in tomorrow, but not for explosive use if you know what i mean
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
posted 02-20-2001 12:40 AM
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do you really need to kill off brain cells when you handle explosives?
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
posted 02-20-2001 12:23 PM
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I have a copy of the master blasters that you're talking about. Has the 500lb sphere of tnt, and the milk jug firball using a
partially filed jug and primacord. The stupid thing is that they went of and started talking about nukes, I need somthing I can
build here people !!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-20-2001 01:18 PM
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500lbs of TNT for one effect?! Gawd damn that must have been impressive!
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 02-20-2001 04:13 PM
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I can remember they used a blob of C4 as a det., and it was in this place where there were many bunkers with lots of
explosives experts and stuff, they filmed it on ultra high speed cameras, so they could play it slowly and analyse how the TNT
blew up, etc.
The explosion was bloody enourmous, there was a violent shock and a massive firey cloud of fire.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-20-2001 06:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"and a massive firey cloud of fire."
They must have included a load of petrol in the blast. They like doing that.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
posted 02-20-2001 07:00 PM
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The 500lb sphere of tnt was detonated for law enforcement training or research or something like that.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 02-21-2001 05:55 AM
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Fuck last monday i saw the 3th episode of Masterblasters but they only talkt about rockets and satellite`s,,They didn`t say or
showed something about explosives(Hmmm why do they call it Masterblasters?)
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a <<Forum>>!!!
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 02-26-2001 06:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ALENGOSVIG1:
Good fireballs can be made my wrapping det cord around a milk jug full of gassoline. But i believe the one kurt saxon did is
much more feasible. Although i dont know why it is called a "FAE". Fuel, air, explosion. It just throws gassoline everywhere and
ignites it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is called a Fuel Air Explosion because the gasoline is atomized (not atomically), and will ignite with explosive force if in right
concentrations with the air, hence the name Fuel Air Explosion.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 02-26-2001 07:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am familiar with the concept of a FAE.
have you even seen the video by Kurt Saxon? In the video, It is quite abvious that the fuel is thrown about and ignited by the
matchhead based pvc pipe bomb. I dont beleive that a 5 inch 1/2" pvc pipe containing matchheads has enough explosive
force to fully atomize 4 litres of gassoline.
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Explosives Archive
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 02-27-2001 05:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know matchheads don't have the "pushing power", so I was thinking of using AP, but AP would rapidly use up the supply of
oxygen in the area, so how could you use AP, but make sure it ignites the petrol?
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 02-27-2001 07:43 PM
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ALENGOSVIG1: I tried to specify but i guess i wasn't clear enough
when i said atomized i did nto mean on an atomic level, i meant just in small particles, like the spray out of a hairspray can or
a spritz bottle, if it is "atomized" then there would be rapid ignition due to the effect of spacing between particles,the ignition
could be so quick if the conventration/saturation was at a level of equal spacing of gasoline and air, the result would explosive
force....
Understand Now?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 02-27-2001 09:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i am quite familiar with the concept. You need not to simplify it. mabe you should watch the video. now, enough flaming.
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Explosives Archive
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-28-2001 10:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackadder, a small charge of AP isn't enough to suck all the oxygen from the surrounding air, but it will "blow the flame out"
in that the explosion will be so fast that the gas won't ignite. NBK suggested mixing lighter flints in the AP to sure this problem
(the flints will be heated and thrown out igniting the fuel).
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 02-28-2001 08:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well anyways ALEN I don't flame, gives motive for the murders
Just Foolin
[This message has been edited by endotherm (edited February 28, 2001).]
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
posted 05-14-2001 06:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, you wanted liquid fuels, but I couldn't resist sharing this.
What you need are four slim lighter fuel (butane) cans, 10 packs of 16 sparklers, and lots electrical tape. Overall, this should
cost you around $25. First, make the sparkler core. To do this, just take out all the sparklers and put them in a bunch, with a
little bit of electrical tape around the middle so they don't fall apart. Have one sparkler sticking out the top of the bunch, long
enough for you to light and have enough time to haul ass. Now place the four cans around the central sparkler bundle, with
concave bottoms upwards, and wrap the whole thing up in a shitload of electrical tape. 90% of the time this will work, and you
will see an incredible fireball, that has enough force to take out a car. Be warned, this baby gives off killer shrapnel.
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
posted 05-15-2001 03:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is a FAE the same as a dust explosion? I really don't see the difference. The improvised munitions handbook describes how to
make an initiator for dust explosions. They use Flour or Gasoline for the main charge so this should be a FAE.
ps: tell me if you want details on how to make the initiator.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-15-2001 05:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is,
FAE mean's Fuel Air Explosion so the dust (Flour,Al powder,Coffee Creamer,etc etc) acts as a fuel like gasoline or an other
liqued fuel does in a FAE.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Improvised Propane/Oxygen Explosives - Archive File
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ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 05-20-2001 11:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For awhile now ive been experementing with flammable gasses and oxygen. I got fed up though because oxygen is quite expensive. $10.00 for 41 grams. That is only 1.1 cu.
ft. of oxygen! So i decided to improvise a little bit and produce my own oxygen.
It is well known that when H202 (Hydrogen Peroxide) + Mn02 (Manganese dioxide) mix causes oxygen to be produced. Alot of oxygen. Mno2 is readibally availible from dry
cell batteries.
One could either place Mn02 in a bottle and react it with H202 and fill baloons or you could pressurize a 2 litre pop bottle with and make a much more powerful and loud
explosion.
Method:
First you must make an elecrical ignitor in the bottle you would be able to use wires because you wouldnt be able to screw on the cap. So, we must use strips of tinfoil. Take a
piece of tin foil and 5 x 2 and fold it over so it is a thick long strip about .25" wide and about 5 inches long and attach wires to both ends. Attach an electrical ignitor to the tin
foil strips so you have an ignitor in the bottle with strips of tinfoil coming out of the end and wires attached to the tin foil coming out of the bottle. Remember to coat the ignitor
in wax before insterting into the bottle.
Nest, fill a 2 litre pop bottle with propane or another flammable gass by placing the head of a blow torch in the bottle and wait a couple minuts or by any other means. Next
place about .5 grams of manganese dioxide in a 2 litre pop bottle. Then add about 30 ml of weak H202. If using 30% H202, the reaction will be too strong. you wouldnt Be
able to cap the bottle fast enough. So if using high concentration of H202, add about 10 parts water to every 1 part H202. Right after adding th H202, quickly srew the cap on
and get back. If using too much Mn02 and H202, the reaction could burst the bottle, thats if you use alot more than i specified. This will pressurize the bottle quite alot with
oxygen and a bit of propane.
You are now done. These are very improvised and weak explosives but are quite entertaining and cheap. Alot more cheap than A salute. Be very carefull with these, they are
quite dangerous. When they go off beacuse it throws the H202 and Mn02 everywhere. So you must be quite a distance away. Another idea i have is to add the Mn02 to some
liquid which is more dense than the concentration of H202 be used. Perhaps some oil based product or something similar. That way, it would not react until it is shaken.
Be careful with they are not meant to be powerfull demolition explosives. There for entertainment purposes. Its not very entertaining if you get Mn02 and H202 in the eye is it?
------------------
Explosives Archive
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited May 20, 2001).]
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
posted 05-22-2001 12:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't you just heat the H2O2? It will decompose producing oxigen.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 05-22-2001 12:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would be hard to pressurize it wouldnt it though? this reactions takes seconds too. less time than wating for h202 to decompose into oxygen.
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
posted 05-22-2001 02:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Couldn't Iron Oxide also be used as a catalyst? Seems that it'd be easier to get the Manganese Dioxide, just go down to the local pottery supplies shop and buy a kilo.
------------------
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-22-2001 06:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bleach can also be used to liberate O2, i believe
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-22-2001 07:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were to throw some manganese dioxide and some calcium carbide into the bottle with H2O2 in, would it explode as soon as the pressure in the bottle reached 2atm?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-22-2001 09:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice Anthoney,
Oxy-Acetylene is quite nice. Put it in a 600ml pepsi bottle had a hole drilled in the lid used a match on a meter stick to light it. The bottom of the bottle was gone and plastic
tattered, the top was peeled back like a banana. it was pretty neat and of a nice report.
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BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 05-22-2001 11:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've dreamed about testing almost every single catalyst to liberate O2, and the most effective is Mno2.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-23-2001 04:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KMnO4 is much better since it is soluble in H2O/H2O2..the production of O2 is much faster!
Anthony, if the pressure heats up enough the mix then yes it would explode!But if not you would need a little help from a fuse!
I remember an experience at school whit H2 and O2 mix that exploded by pressurisation (thus without contact with a flamme!).
------------------
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-23-2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sure MnO and KMnO4 are all better ways, bleach is the most cost effective, and easiest to obtain. There is not a spot on earth i don't think, that doesn't sell liqued bleach for
use in doing laundry.
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-23-2001 06:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll try it when I've made some calcium carbide. I thought that acetylene exploded spontaneously when pressurized to 2atm or greater? and that they dissolve acetylene in
acetone in compressed acetylene tanks to get around this? If it does then the bottle device shouldn't need an ignitor. Although 2atm is only about 15psi (above atmospeheric
pressure) so if the reaction was too fast it would go off damn quick.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > NI3 - Archive File
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Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-24-2001 07:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have looked and looked, but I have never found a VOD for NI3. Does anyone know what the VOD is? Is NI3 a good intitiator?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-24-2001 07:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Author of the PMJB series(Kurt Saxon, wonderful man I talked to him over the phone once) Claims to be able to use it initiate Pipe Bombs, and says the a piece(the size of
a bean) aplied wet to the end of a 1/4Stick w ill set it off. He aslo claims to use it to rid himself of rats.
------------------
Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
posted 05-25-2001 05:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bad idea. You should look at megalomania's site about Nitrogen Triiodide. In a controlled laboratory experiment, a pile of this composition w as initiated with a feather.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-25-2001 09:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but megas site does not give the VoD. I doubt you are going to find one that is accurate. The NI3 is SO sensitive to everything, i doubt you can really test it.
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Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: U.S.
posted 05-25-2001 06:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, I kind of thought that could be the case, but I thought maybe someone tested it. Oh well......
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somew here in florida
posted 05-26-2001 12:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NI3 is unbeleveibly sensitive it will go of in slight heat changes! if you blow on it it will go off, that means even your air conditioning could set it off! also when it goes off it
stains everything purple
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-28-2001 04:41 AM
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I think that nobody really wants to play with such a compound, dry and to put it a tmax density in a pipe (min 500g) to determine the VOD of that shit!
It is fun to play w ith one gram of it but insane to manipulate it dry!
A 0.5g pellet w ill detonate by the contact of a fly landing on it!I have played a lot with that compound in my early times!
------------------
"Chemistry is all w hat stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
posted 05-28-2001 05:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is this in "Low Explosives" ? I'd class N H3 NI3 as a HE. It certainly does not deflagrate (no oxygen)! And from dem onstrations I've seen, this stuff c ertainly is a lot m ore powerful
than flash powder.
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
posted 05-28-2001 05:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you actually calculate the VoD of explosives?

------------------
good boy w ith bad ideas
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-29-2001 10:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With tw o methods:
*an ultrafast chronometer set on and off by the shock wave passing trough two sensors; the on and the off sensors being separated by a know n distance!
Ex: 5 meters and 0.100 ms that makes 5m/0.100ms*1000ms/s = 5000m/s!
*The other way is more complicated to explain but roughly it is a comparison of VOD's with a detcord having a know n VOD!
The detcord makes a loop that has a detonator in both extremities of a 1 meter pipe containing the unknown explosive!
At a certain point the detcord and the pipe detonates separately at their speed and then w hen the end of the 1m pipe is reached it set off the second extremity of the detcord
which is already detonating at the other extremity for a w hile! So you have two shockwave traveling towards each other and they meet at a certain point that is indicated by a
dent in a load plate rolled arround the half of the detcord near the last extremity! The relation is easy to find out by an algebrical equation!And thus the place of the dent is
proportionnal to the speed of the unknown explosive's VOD but also of the detcord's VOD what is known!

I feel the need to say that NI3 has absolutely no practical use whatsoever. Using it as a detonator w ould be suicide. It should really only be regarded as a fun novelty, as that is
all NI3 is. It is pow erful enough to cause a lot of damage to a person, even death. Remember that NI3 is still an explosive, even though it is fun to play with.
Kid Orgo June 18th, 2003, 12:44 AM

Is ammonium triiodide any safer? I've read a lot about it on kewl sites.
And Philou should really cut down on his exclamation point use. It mars otherwise impeccable english.
[And you shouldn't be telling respected members how to w rite, ALENG]

Ammonium tri-iodide is just another name for nitrogen tri-iodide. Both are NI3, the very same thing.
inFinie August 4th, 2003, 12:22 PM

Ammonium triiodide just not exists in normal conditions because ammonium cation is (+ 1) valenced and iodide anion is (-1).Therefore ammonium iodide is NH4I and i won't say
it is same as NI3.NH3

When NI3 is dry it doesn't even need a feather to set it off it can go off by itself w ithout any outside disturbance. Sensitivity of NI3 is directly related to its moisture content and
I would imagine so would its VOD. I've read somewhere that when that stuff is very dry its VOD is aroud 5000m/s.
I don't know about this stuff being powerful enough to kill, as someone said before b/c you are not very likely to be able to successfully dry a chunk that's big enough to do that
(assuming you are not going to stuff your ear with it), but I never tried big chunks myself.
One word of warning though, don't try to store this stuff in ammonia either, it tends to form blocks that dry up from the inside... not good!

I am curious, WHY does anyone w ant to make this explosive? It makes no sense to me that anyone would want to make something that are so sensitive that it can be set off
by wind blowing at it.
maybee (not for me though) as a "one timer" just to have done it, but to PLAY with it??
Sonny Jim August 4th, 2003, 09:04 PM

I made it when I blagged some I crystals from my school years ago. I made it just of of curiosity, for an experiment.
zeocrash August 5th, 2003, 04:25 AM

the only possible use for NI3 i can think of is using it as a cruel form of practical joke
asting some w het stuff on a pavement, and w hen it dries it gives quite a shock to pedestrians.
i seen to remember someone on here telling me about how some Uni professors used to do this for their kicks
a_bab August 5th, 2003, 04:51 AM

It's very nice to play w ith. Very simple to make. Very fast. That's why everybody wants to make it.
As about vod, should be rather small w hen when, as is not able to tear the filter paper, I'd say under 1000 m/sec
It definitly can kill you. Imagine 1 gram of NI3 exploding in a beaker. Sharp pieces of glass flying at supersonic speeds. At least one (small) piece passing thru the eye and
entering into the brain. Any explosive can kill you. It's a matter of quantity, but you can get killed with less than a gram if you are unlucky enough.
I made it before, until the beaker which contained the stuff exploded with no apparent reason. The NI3 was stored under water, and it was less than a gram. The beaker w as
turned into dust; it was a 250 ml one; the largest pieces of glass I could find were deeply embeded into a plank of wood.
Marvin August 5th, 2003, 01:54 PM

Just for the record, a triiodide anion does exist, it has 3 atoms of iodine and a single negative charge, its also the reason iodine dissolves well in potassium iodide solutions.
Ammonium triiodide should be preperable, though we wouldnt expect it to be explosive.
inFinie August 5th, 2003, 04:06 PM

Yes it does but i don't think that pure (or solid) NH4I3 will be available.
It should be like this (conjecture only):
KI + H2O --> K+ + I-
I- + I2 --> I3-
NH4+ + I3- --> NH4I3 but w e cannot say that it will.
Edited twice: First i searched for sup and sub tags and found that thread :) , edited my post to add su{b|p}s, and seemed it doesn't works :mad: and removed them
In http://w ww.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid= 1474&highlight=subscript+ superscript sub and sup's work or is it an old (a very old) thread? or i miss sthg?
0EZ0 August 5th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Infinie, use the '< > < />' tags for sup and sub .
The new board software doesn't allow the ()(/) tags for subscript or superscript(is that it?).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > LO X - Archive File
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god
New Mem ber
Posts: 31
From :
posted 05-26-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i did a serach and did not get any thing so how do you m a k e L O X and what are it's like it got the idae from this sit http://
ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/~ghg/
i think that this is just too good to be true or is it is there any other names for it like lique d o 2
FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 05-26-2001 10:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOX is just liquid O2 (hence the LO X: Liquid O Xygen). It is m a d e b y s u p e r c h i l i n g o r p r o b a b l y c o m p r e s s i n g o x y g e n g a s a l o t .
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-26-2001 10:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the way they LO2 is b y liquefiying air, this is do ne by com pressing it in a tank to thousands of psi (don't try at hom e ) a n d t h e y
blow the liquifyed air (under pressure) through an expander, this makes the air b oil and get very cold and condense in an
e x p a n d e r t a n k , t h e n t h e y h e a t the tan k to certain temp atures and take off the gasses that evaporate at diffrent tem p s a n d
store them a n d p r e s s u r i z e t h e m a g a i n s e p e r a t l y a n d r e c o n d e n s e t h e m using the coldness of the first liquification step to m a k e
the process m ore efficitent. th is is obviously som e t h i n g t h a t c a n t b e d o n e a t h o m e and is horribly inefficien t and costly not to
m ention slightlydangerous
god
New Mem ber
Posts: 31
From :
posted 05-27-2001 12:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for all the good avice i geas that i will not be m a k i n g a n y L o x
EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
posted 05-29-2001 06:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M a k i n g i t i s a h u g e h a s s l e , b u t i f y o u h a p p e n t o c o m e a c r o s s s o m e, it ca n b e u s e f u l . L O X e x p l o s i v e s a r e m a d e s i m p l y b y
s o a k i n g L O X i n t o s o m ething like charcoal and set off with a detonator. These use d to be quite com m o n a s a b l a c k p owder
substitute until cheap HE's were available. In fact, drink therm oses were invented as a result of experim ents to m a k e a g o o d
container for the LOX.
Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
posted 05-30-2001 01:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOX was used by welders mostly and were required a license to handle or transport it, because of its dangerous nature its is
b a r l e y u s e d a n y m ore. If a tan k if that stuff ruptured it oxyginated everything and caused invisible fires from the excess of
o x y g e n . I d o nt know how true this info is but thats what I learned from m y teacher in college.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-30-2001 02:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you need a hazmat liscence to drive a truck of it. but it is still used I see trucks of it roll down the highway. it is indeed
dangerous and fires with LO 2 c a n b e h o t e n o u g h t o m elt concrete and cause explosions if it is in an inclose d space. for
e x a m ple a couple of road flares ignited in a truck would probably blow the inner bladder and if it hit the outside hard enough it
would burst causing a real problem if it hit anyhting sparking or already burning
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 237
From : austra lia
posted 05-30-2001 03:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there was a story on tv about a guy wh o got sick of waiting for his barbeque to bu rn down, so he added O2 gas, burnt it from
logs to coals in 3 m in utes. wasn't good enough for him t h o u g h , s o h e o r d e r e d a t a n k o f L O X, and suddenly, by leaving a lit
ciggarette in the fire , and pouring ove r the LOX, he could burn it down to coals in 3 seconds. (unfortunately the entire BBQ was
m elted in to the ground.)
.: just so you know... it's powerful shit.
for those of you in australia, it was adam spencer and karl kruzelnitski's science show (from triple J)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Anyone know whats happening here ? -
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FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 05-28-2001 10:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this site a while back while doing some research on mercury for school. It has m ost/all of the elem ents and a little
d e m onstration of what some of them do. On the 'Ag' (Silver) page it showed an MPEG of Silver Nitrate + Mg + H2O m a k i n g a
nice flash. Does anyo ne know whats going on in this reaction? And why does it have water?
www.webelem ents.com should get you there then click o n Ag or just click here
[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited May 29, 2001).]
Cipolla
New Mem ber
Posts: 37
From :
posted 05-29-2001 03:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h a t a m i x t u re of AgNO3 with Mg burns like sown on the picture is clear and I think that the water ist taken to ignite the
m ixure. AgNO3 is very good soluable in water and the solution is acidic, causing a reaction with the m agnesia that ignites the
m ixture....
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-29-2001 10:41 AM
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Right if you put a solution of an salt of a metal in conta ct with a metal th at is a stronger reducer than the first one...you get an
exchenge reaction that heats up the stuff especially if h ighly concentrate and if the m etal is really a strong reducer!
Here:
Mg + 2AgNO3 -(H2O )-> Mg(NO3)2 + 2Ag
This reaction doesn't need water and a fire can do the same!
After with the heat!
3Mg + AgNO3 --> 3MgO + Ag + 1/2N2
Mg(NO3)2 + 5Mg --> 6MgO + N2
Interesting b ut quite expensive!
Maybe this can be done with Copper nitrate instead and Al powder!Less expensive but also surely less effective!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > ap pressing - Archive File
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shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 01-23-2001 05:06 PM
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How much presure are people putting on there ap when pressing detonators?I press mine with a pen or stick.I fill the tube about quarter way the press it in sections first softy
tamp it down then I put the pen in and press it and about the same presure as one would apply to sticking a pen in fresh soil,then give it a slow push down with the pen with
about 1 quarter my bodywieght{80 kilos.}I keep going untill its full.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
posted 04-01-2001 08:06 PM
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I should soon be needing some detonators. I know how to make them, about how much explosive to use, and so on. I have several hundred .44mag shells and would like to
use them for detonator casings (while using the primer hole for the fuze hole). I also have the pressing machine required to reload them (it squeezes the bullet in the shell). So
I thought it would be a good idea to pack my primary in the shell and use a bullet to mash it down nice and tight while sealing the detonator. I don't know if I can pack HMTD
or AP and didn't want to experiment it. I did however experiment it with Pyrodex. I could fit a LOT of powder in there. I don't know how much so I will do it now and weigh it. I
could fit 2.915943 grams of Pyrodex in. It was solid, looked like a piece of slightly pitted metal, and felt smooth when I scratched it with a pen. Then I put it on the stove and it
detonated the primer and plastered solid chunks of Pyrodex on the stove and made a big cloud of smoke with a bright flash. Anyways, I was wondering how much pressure
you can safely put on HMTD or AP. Thanks.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 04-01-2001 08:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well if i read that right, and you were able to basically press the pyrodex into one single grain, than that is WAY to much pressure for AP. that is tantamount to suicide if you
ask me. just get a wooden dowel that fits into the mag shell and use that as a press. you don't have to press it to hard to get a good detonator. just put a bit of pressure on it
and you should be all set.
------------------
...
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
posted 04-01-2001 08:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok thanks. Probably saved my life (or at least my ears, hands, machinery, and some jail time).
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
posted 04-02-2001 01:11 PM
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Shady: I put about as much pressure as you do, but I don't think it's safe. I think making a mechanical press would be good since removing your hands just 20 or 30 cm from
the cap will mean the difference between a few cuts to your fingers, and the almost certain traumatic amputation of at least the fingers and maybe even the hand, if it ever
detonates on loading.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
posted 04-02-2001 05:34 PM
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always safety first boys....
damp with alcohol or acetone everytime you make a detonator out of alcohol/acetone soluble compound.
I myself prefer making AP putty with nitrocellulose and while it's still a wet lump, I stick my tube into it, insert the fuse/electric fuse and give pressure with a pastle then crimp
the tube after sealing with some cork or cotton
(damp, not dissolve)
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 04-02-2001 09:28 PM
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either way, wet or dry (damp or dry as the case might be) i still wouldn't put the same amount of pressure on the AP as you would if you were making a single grain SP...
seams to risky to me and a little overkill to boot.
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...
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
posted 04-03-2001 03:10 AM
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Try a detonator without pressing it, and then with a heavy pressing. Test both, and if it makes no difference, don't press it. As there is a lot of risk associated with pressing,
avoid it as much as possible
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 04-03-2001 04:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, there is a difference, that is why pressing is needed to make a good cap... especially out of AP, it isn't the most powerful stuff in the world. i think AP detonates at about
4500 M/s when pressed to like 1.4 grams/centimeter. unconfined, or just confined with no pressing doesn't produce that effect.
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...
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 05-05-2001 11:16 PM
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Hopefully at school this term I'll make a shell reloader for pressing AP and other explosives used in blasting caps.I thinking of using Ash or another hardwood.Any ideas?
Demolition
bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
From: Ouagadougou, -, Niger
posted 05-11-2001 06:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It should be possible to make a press that could be operated from a distance, right? In that case you could make a stress test and use, say half the pressure of ignition?
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 05-12-2001 08:19 AM
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Hopefully with my design my hands when pressing AP should be 60-70cm away.
Demolition
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-12-2001 11:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i would suggest, if you design can allow it, to place heavy plexiglass between you and the machine so as to provide one more level of protection. Assuming a detonator goes
off, the plexiglass will go a long way to protect your hands and face. And as always, where goggles when doing this. No need to be blind for the rest of your life.
------------------
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-12-2001 03:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Craghack that a blast screen is a good idea, plexiglass (acrylic) being so brittle could throw more schrapnel at you than the cap casing would.
I think something simple like putting the cap inside a roll of tape or wrapping it in heavy cloth would stop any scrapnel.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 05-12-2001 10:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the replies.I'll let you know how it turns out.
I was thinking of some kind of shield but then,as Anthony said it could throw more shrapnel than the casing itself.Maybe if the shield was 15-20cm away from the casing it
wouldn't shatter however there is always a chance,especially when pressing larger amounts of explosives i.e. 5 grams.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP & Blue Tack - Archive File
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boobear
New Mem ber
Posts: 2
From :
posted 03-14-2001 04:45 AM
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m y friend and I had a brain storm and we thought of mixing AP with blue tack and we m ix ed at a ratio 50-50. W e h a d a b a l l o f
it about the size of a small marble, we used norm al safety fuse to detonate it. We put the AP blue tack on the side of a bucket
and it sm a s h e d t h e s i d e o f t h e b u c k e t o u t .
PS if you try to mix to m uch AP in to the blue tack it will lose it's sticking ability. It is also a good idea to mix the AP 50-50 with
s m o keless gun powder before m ixing with blue tack, it helps the AP take hold of blue tack.
C A U T I O N D O NOT UNDER ESTIMATE THIS STUFF IT IS STILL PO W E R F U L .
[This message has been edited by boobear (edited March 14, 2001).]
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
posted 03-14-2001 03:28 PM
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People know that it's still powerful.
Nigh tStalker
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 116
From :
posted 03-18-2001 07:21 AM
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W hat exactly is blue tack??
As e nglish is not m y first language i don't know the word and i can't find it in m y vocabulary.
Could anyone explain what it is and where to get it from ? ?
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zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
posted 03-18-2001 07:42 AM
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Its hard to describe, its like plasticene. But the difference is that if you press it onto a wall it will stick, and is m ore elastic.
People use it to stick posters onto the wall with. Howeve r, I have also seen white tack
Nigh tStalker
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 116
From :
posted 03-19-2001 01:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanx, that is all i ne eded, now i know where to get that stuff...
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Igenx
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : No Fucking Way
posted 03-27-2001 08:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technically that stuff isn't blue tack, it's just called (generic stuff anyways) "Poster Putty." I didn't even read this thread until
now cause blue tack is a type of large animal m edication.
brya n_wilson65
New Mem ber
Posts: 16
From : O u a g a d o u g o u , - , N i g e r
posted 05-11-2001 12:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually thought about using blu-tack som etimes, but never tried it. I g uess sanitary silicone wou ld do the sam e job. Only
s m e ll worse. Are there other ways of m a k i n g a p l a s t i c e x p l o s i v e o u t o f A P ? I m e a n l i k e s y r u p , m o d elling clay or just fuel oil?
DarkAngel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 592
From : ?
posted 05-11-2001 02:44 PM
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A P d o e s n ' t h a v e e n o u g h p o w e r to mak e a plastique with it,If you m ix it with som ething it would only becom e m ore weaker
unle s s y o u u s e N C o r a n o t h e r e x p l o s i v e , Y o u r e a l l y n e e d a m ore powerfu ll and sa fer explosive for m a k i n g a p l a s t i q u e a n d u s e
it as a main charge
------------------
DarkAngel

CodeMason
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 383
posted 05-13-2001 06:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, since usually people are too shit scare d to pound AP on its own into a high density (and for good reasons!), adding an
inert plasticizing material to it will serve to mak e the density higher, ergo, making it m ore powerful.
Thanks for the tip, boobear. I'll try it o ut when I dream a b o u t m a k i n g m y next batch of AP.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > which is better HMTD or AP - Archive File
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CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-11-2001 02:36 PM
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I've been reading messages on the forum and everyone is talking about how they used AP as a detonator and AP firecrackers but HMTD has more common ingredients, and is
less sensitive than AP, and correct me if I'm wrong, HMTD is also more powerful. I'm planning on making HMTD but I'm hearing a lot about AP, so which is better? And how
would I detonate ANFO with HMTD or AP?(how much)
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 04-11-2001 03:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP is 100 times easier to make in large quantities, that's why the forum members usually use it instead of HMTD.
AP synthesys uses mathereals easier to find than HMTD (clear hexamine especially).
Yes! HMTD is more powerful than AP (lead tests HMTD 340, AP 250).
Finely powdered ANFO with 3 % diesel will need 12 grams HMTD to detonate in carboard container. 50 AP grams or less will also work correctly(AP is easier to make in such
quantities that's why I suggest 50 grams).
Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
posted 04-11-2001 04:04 PM
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But HMTD has the detonation speed of 4800 m/s and AP 5300 m/s. SAo i don t know how you can measure the Power? Wicht produces more gas or what?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-12-2001 03:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have seen VOD data tables of AP and when pressed you can even reach the 6000 m/s!
Sensitivity to friction is the same for both HMTD and AP (0.1 N) but sensitivity to impact are different AP (0.3Nm), HMTD (0.6Nm).
I really think that lead block test don't give an idea of the performances as a cap/detonator (partially but not completely).A lot of initiating explosives have a low lead block
test....
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Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
posted 04-12-2001 09:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, PHILOU Zrealone, think you can find that chart? I recently asked how much AP or HMTD could be compressed safely, and this has me much more curious now. Thanks.
CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
posted 04-12-2001 10:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hydrochloric acid can be used in place of sulfuric acid in AP right. Sulfuric acid was a major turn off for making AP. Could someone give me a recipe using hydrochloric acid that
gives me a non-suicidal yield. Tell me how much your recipe makes to I can calculate how much more or less of ingrediants to use so I can get the right amount of AP to make
for me. Thanks
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-12-2001 11:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMTD:
VOD/d/ws vs TNT
4511/0.88/?%
4500/1.1/60%
5100/1.57/110% (max)
AP:
3065/0.68/71%
5290/1.2/83%
can be pressed more!I tell you how much tomorrow if I have time!
------------------
bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
posted 05-11-2001 10:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you make these tests yourself? It seems like an interesting thing. A lead test requires a lot of hardware, though. I guess you're not doing those...
How about the sensitivity of HMTD, i read som rumours again about it being even more sensitive than AP?
bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
posted 05-12-2001 02:21 PM
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Aargh. Did I write that? I must have been tired. Pardon me. What I meant was, more experiments connected to real-world experiances should be published, and experiments
should be made. I am not really interested in large scale manufacturing of AP or HMTD but the tests are interesting. And if others have use for them, I write about them. I am
planing a series of AP vs HMTD tests in a near future. Probably during next week.
Bryan June 12th, 2003, 04:17 AM

I have managed to press AP a lot more than HMTD (in my rocket press), also AP's cheaper, and you can make many mixes with it (APPN, APAN), you can use metal casings,
and it doesn't need tons of stirring, and can be made with just about any concentration of peroxide, it doesn't need loads of temperature control, and it still seems to form, no
matter how badly you f*** it up, the chemicals are easily found, and you can use very contiminated precursors, you can use HCL and still get good yeilds, you can easily make
200g batches no problems, it's also better in polumas (I think so anyway), and it's less UV sensitive.....
HMTD on the other hand, stores better, doesn't stink, and has a nice boom, instead of the AP crack....
I like AP much better... (I wonder why :rolleyes: )
Bryan

"it doesn't need tons of stirring, and can be made with just about any concentration of peroxide, it doesn't need loads of temperature control"
Same for HMTD!
I've noticed any difference in sound upon detonation...

I happen to be new here, this is my forst post, so greetings all.
I have observed that AP makes a sharp crack upon detonation as previously stated, and that HMTD makes more of a BANG, or even a BOOM of you detonate a larger amount.
I've also occasionally observed a flash of fire from HMTD detonations but never from an AP explosion.
Many people will disagree, but I believe HMTD to be more sensetive that AP, definately to mechanical stress. It's hardly a scientific test, but I find HMTD much easier to set off
with a hammer blow than AP. Another not so technical test I do is wrap a small amount of each explosive in paper, lightly press it, and shoot it with my .22 air rifle. HMTD
nearly always goes off, but AP seldom does. Both charges are shot from an equal distance, before you ask.
HMTD, in my experience, stores better than AP, but this is not to say that it stores well.
As for power, I would say HMTD has more kick to it, however, if AP is pressed, and it seems to press better than HMTD, then it's power is greatly improved over setting it off
loose.
Regarding preparation, I think AP and HMTD are six and two threes. I don't usually bother to prepare HMTD in an ice bath, I just chill the peroxide down in the fridge prior to
adding the hexamine. With AP, however, I do prepare an ice bath, and still chill the ingredients beforehand. You can definately save time making AP though I think, as
intermittent stirring is not really nescessary after all chemicals are added.
I try to be more careful controlling the temperature when making AP, due to the formation of different isomers at different temperatures. It seems a waste of time to go to the
trouble of making something if you know you're only going to get second best.
As for chemicals, I think the precursors for both explosives are easy enough to get and cheap. I prefer working with the chemicals used in HMTD though. Cirtic acid is not as
nasty as mineral acids are, for example. AP stinks, all throughout making it. This is not really a great issue, but it irritates the parents more than the odourless HMTD does,
when in the fridge. This could be relevant to other 'home dwelling' chemists, so bear it in mind.
One word regarding the acid addition for AP. I dont think it makes any difference what acid you use, but I have heard some people say that H2SO4 seems to make dyclo AP,
and they therefore prefer HCL. This is not an accurate thought process, however. The only reason I can think of that H2SO4 supposedly favours dyclo AP formation is that it is
usually bought in >90% concentrations and therefore creates a lot more heat per ml added than the usually lower concentrated HCL. Therefore I recommend diluting any
concentrated acid before using it as a catalyst in AP manufacture, to help keep the reaction cool, ensuring a better product.
To cut a long story short, AP is easy to make, yes, but it's manufacture becomes considerably more complex if you actually try to make a good job of it. I think the HMTD
synthesis process is less forgiving with respect to carelessness than the AP one is, but the final product in terms of explosive performance is better. The big drawback of HMTD
is that it is dangerous to let it touch metal objects, as it becomes ustable. AP seems compatible with commonly used metals though.
Hope someone found this of interest. Sonny Jim.

I have observed that AP makes a sharp crack upon detonation as previously stated, and that HMTD makes more of a BANG, or even a BOOM of you detonate a larger amount.
Yesterday I hit the range with 90 odd grams of AP. 6 grams in a film container, then 5 grams in pile struck with shovel** and 75+ grams in a 1LB ricotta cheese plastic tub w/
lid.
**See the AP thread for a warning about this practice.....it is NOT advisable.
I used a fuse for the film vial and got a faily sharp crack for a report.
I *shot* literally the 75g lot all at once with my 8mm rifle so as to avoid driving it another 75 miles home :D . It was most CERTAINLY a *boom!* I was deeper and more
powerful that I could have hoped!
It was dark out (we were packing up to go) and I saw a slight flash and a few sparks (reminded me of embers floating up from a fire pit)
I shot the tub from 100 yards and felt a nice chest thump.
Myrol April 19th, 2004, 09:58 AM

If you're neutralising the AP very well you got a nearly odorless product! Only the fresh acidified slurry smells nasty :p That rules also for HMTD The Fresh slurry smells ugly
sweet but the final product--> odorless!
Spleenman April 19th, 2004, 05:06 PM

If you're neutralising the AP very well you got a nearly odorless product! Only the fresh acidified slurry smells nasty :p That rules also for HMTD The Fresh slurry smells ugly
sweet but the final product--> odorless!
I don't find the smell nasty at all. My AP always has a rather pleasant scent both before and after the neutralization process.
kingspaz April 21st, 2004, 09:56 AM

given the relative volatility of both HMTD and AP and their rather unstable structue i would expect both to have some sort of odor even after neutralisation.
Myrol May 22nd, 2004, 01:07 PM

Yesterday I made some new HMTD to test how strong pure HMTD really is (in comparism with AP!). I would say AP is defenately better as HMTD in 4 points: 1. The Precoursors
for AP are almost for everyone fast and pure avialable, Hexamine must be often purificated (I must do this everytime.....unfortunately :rolleyes: ) 2. Acetone is easy in big
amounts
purchaseable, if you're buying 10 Esbitboxes at once......be prepared for questions what you're doing whith so much "Esbit".......3. Formation of AP is nice slow and you can
maintain the Temperature easy with little cooling without much trouble! If you're doing this with HMTD, it turns crazy......because you MUST chill GOOD to prevent hot spots and
runaway's...I had this once with both Peroxides, believe me HMTD's runaway is worser! 4. The Yield.....After Filtration of my finished 180g Hexamine 550ml H2O2 30 and 275g
Citric Acid Batch I was somewhat confused! So much Hexamine, SO MUCH HP, BUT so less HMTD.....oh maaaan...It seems like 120-150g HMTD.....if I compare this with
AP.....urrrghh...not good.....the only REALLY good things with HMTD are its stronger and denser as AP and smell after nothing :D because its not volatile like AP! The other
site.....it decomposes slowly for no reason and is incompatible with Metals :( !
utax May 29th, 2004, 11:56 AM

AP is a lot cheaper to make, but it is very sensitive. HMTD is not so sensitive, but it more expensive to make it. I would prefer AP, but be very careful with this shit!
The_Rsert October 8th, 2004, 01:03 PM

HMTD does fuse in longer contact with metals but it has (pressed) a velocity of about 340ml in a lead block.
AP does almostly only decompose but it has only a lead block expansion of 250ml(dimeric AP) and 270ml (trimeric AP).
The best way: Put in a plastik-tube a "electrical fuse" (I don't know the right english word), than 0.2 BP, than 0.5g Nitrostarch or 0.3g NC, than 2-4g AP and at least 2g HMTD
for a little booster of the velocity. Than stopper the the tube with a platic-foil and wrap the tube with a thick adhesive foil.
Sorry about my bad English.
Chris The Great October 13th, 2004, 04:18 AM

AP melts so you can cast it, HMTD (as far as a quick google search turned up) decomposes. I highly recommend NOT casting AP, although, I have seen it melt before igniting
while trying to light a sand grain size that was on the floor. Turned into a clear liquid before going pop. I suspect that if one did this, and did not die from the liquid exploding
(as it would definatly be insanely sensitive to everything) then a very high density and power could be achieved.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Ap ping pong ball putty first time heard of - Archive File
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YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 04-11-2001 05:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i was just wondering when ap&ping pong ball putty was first widely known about any ideas ive known ap & sp putty for while but i never heard about using ping pong balls
until i joined this site & how does it compare to ap & sp putty i guess it doesnt but we cant all get sp very easily in some countries cheers
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-11-2001 06:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PP ball AP putty isn't as powerful as SP AP putty since the NC isn't as nitrated. If using double base SP you also have the added benefit of the NG which no doubt boosts power
quite a bit.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
posted 04-11-2001 09:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah,the nitrocellulose base makes it more powerfull by the nature, the ping pong balls are shitty grade SP and alittle bit of camphor. If in a pinch use the PP method but, i
would always go with SP if i had the option.-Pyro
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From:
posted 04-12-2001 12:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, i tried the PP method a while back
altho the "general" recipe for AP + PP says to use 30 PP balls,
i only had 6 PP balls - i posted my recipe a little while back...search for it
and i must say i was quite impressed with the reasults

i would say maybe, 30 times more powerful then AP unconfined
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 04-12-2001 03:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I new it wasnt as powerfull but id still like to know when people had themselves first had heard of pp putty i just wanted to know if it was anew idea or been around a while
just amatter of interest cheers
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-12-2001 03:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's been around for a while, certainly when I first started reading about HE's.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited May 11, 2001).]
bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
posted 05-11-2001 09:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about NC laquer, which is used in pyro a lot. This thing is about the same as PP but better and cheaper?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-11-2001 07:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's pretyt much the same thing except you get considerably less NC in acetone with the laquer. The PP balls in acetone form a layer of stringy NC goo at the bottom of
vessel rather than a solution.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 05-12-2001 12:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That NC lacquer is useful shit!
All you need to do for a fuse is dip some string in it, and let the string dry. Instant fuse.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
posted 05-13-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i would say maybe, 30 times more powerful then AP unconfined
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So its DV is 112.5 km/sec?! Holy shit!!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-14-2001 08:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CTAP unconfined has not a high VOD!
The maximum VOD reach 5.3km/s!
So be more careful when you say 112km/s...that totaly wrong! You only reach 6-7km/s with NC when confined and in large pipes!
The fastest known explosives have "only" VOD arround 9-10-11km/s and that's twice faster than CTAP!
------------------
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 05-15-2001 07:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I posted subject about nc from laquer on may 6th its in miscellaneous after extracting the nc from laquer and letting go hard it only takes a small amount acetone to make it
go to a paste in a bout half hour & get quite a bit from liter of laquer which is cheap to buy

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Spudgunner
New Member
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
posted 04-12-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I have never made AP, but am thinking about making a gram or two. I w ould have to guess how much chemicals, but I know the ratios, so I should get close. Anyway,
what I am wanting to know is how powerful AP is compared to flashpowder using KClO4 and dark/black Al. What about AP putty using single base SP for it? I would like to
know, ie, 4 grams flash is about equivalent to 1 gram AP, or whatever the ratio is. I dont know if I will even make any, probably not. I am just wanting to know about what the
ratio on power is. Thank you in advance.
------------------
Give me immortality or give me death!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-13-2001 07:24 AM
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No simple answer because of too many parameters: density of AP or flash mix, confinement or not, strenght of the container if there is one, particle size of your flash mix,
composition of the flash mix, quality of the Al black powder, thickness of the oxyd layer of the Al pow der, balls or sheets,...?
You better test it yourself,first same weight, secondly same volume, thirdly same density,....ENJOY
We can't help you further!
------------------
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
posted 04-13-2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you use the same confinement for both the ap w ill have a lot more shattering pow er compaired to flashpowder witch has hardly any. but the loudness of the bang they make
will be simular ap slightly louder.
Spudgunner
New Member
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
posted 04-13-2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thing is, I was not actually wanting to make AP, just seeing if it is necissary. I am doing squibs right now , the blood pack stuff. I am currently using about a quarter gram flash,
which works quite well, but I w ant to get the "power pack" as small as I can. I was thinking maybe a tenth gram or so AP putty would be about the right amount. I currently am
putting the flash powder in paper footballs. That gives it a lot of confinement so not much powder is needed, but unfortunatly, this also makes it somewhat thick, and wide too.
What w ould be optimal w ould be a thing about the size of a small straw tall, and half an inch long. If you all dont think that AP putty could explode in such small quantities,
please tell. The confinement w ould be between the blood pack and the backing material. And no, I am not taking chances. I am doing this safely, testing before on a person,
etc. I have put a few on people so far, and they were very safe. I am not going to go into all my details on safety, etc, you are just going to have to trust me I am being safe
about it.
(One effect I am trying to acheive would be a gunshot w ound to the side of the head, without any cuts, which w ould be hard because your blood and explosive would have to
be concealed under hair or something, which would be easy to see. I would like to do this on a closeup, but I have a feeling I w ill never be doing this. So dont w orry about me
blowing off someones head, since I could not do it safely, I w ont be doing it.)
------------------
Give me immortality or give me death!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-13-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The beauty of AP putty is that it doesn't require any confinement to produce a powerful explosion and will detonate in any quantity. You can form it to any shape you need and
you could do without any packaging simply dip the hardened putty in wax to waterproof it (from the paint).
I think it's definately w orth a look into if you w ant extra small blood charges.
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 04-13-2001 06:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i found that Good Flash Powder is probably twice as loud as ap , but ap has twice the pow er, or maybe i just have good flash and bad ap
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 04-14-2001 05:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's difficult to compare non detonatable(maximum "detonation" velocity of flash is 1km/s) mathereal and detonatabla, as AP.
Acetone peroxide produces much greater pressure!
------------------
...SOMEONE RESORRECTED...
SHOOT HIM TWICE!
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 04-15-2001 01:22 AM
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FLASH is louder than ap but know where near as powerfull ithink its loudness is due to heat of explosion making the gases around it expand anyway its louder
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-17-2001 07:47 AM
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I must say I disagree with what Anthony has written! Nor AP, nor NC, nor a mix of both (AP putty) can detonate without confinement in ANY quantity; that's w rong!
Confinement reduce the minimum quantity at which a detonation can occur; but the limit stil exist!Under that specific mass deflagration or burning happens!
Otherw ise there w ould be no critical diameter, no critical mass,...what is never the case for all known explosives.
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 04-17-2001 07:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done it again. Sorry Philou, w hat I should have said in "practically" any quantity. I'm pretty sure I've touched off peices smaller than a match head (probably smaller) and
had a detonation occur. I don't think he'd be using a charge anyw here as small as the critical mass.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 04-17-2001 10:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Anthony - if light a piece AP-putty smaller than a matchhead it gives of a sharp crack on detonation (OK, the sound is no evidence for a detonation). That's a really
tiny amount, so the minimum quantity is about 0,1g......
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catfood.tsx.org
the_w ingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 49
From:
posted 04-17-2001 11:20 AM
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AP CAN detonate without confinement.
I once lighted a grain of very dry AP and it detonated half a meter aw ay from my face. My ears rang for three days although it w asn't even a gram of AP.
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
posted 04-17-2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A.P will alw ays detonate at the right temperature even in tiny amounts.If you put flame to a.p it goes up with a 'pooof'if you slowly heated the same amount it would go
'crack'eventually
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-18-2001 05:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Velocity of sound is not difficult to surpass since it is only 350m/s and thus a lot of pyrotechnic mixtures goes easily over this when between 2000 and 350 m/s we are usually
speaking of deflagration...since it is supersonic, a shockwave goes through your ears making some desorder and injuries...ears are really sensitive...there is a famous karate
move that hits the two ears of the opponent and that can knok him dow n by blow ing the inner ear-you don't even make a supersonic move to get that effect...
So NO NO NO sound of crack and ears ringing is definitely no proof of a detonation!!!!!
You are right to say that AP must have one of the lowest critical mass of all explosive; but this can only be studied via the critical diameter and the VOD under confinement at a
given density and a certain diameter. Keeping the density constant and ploting all VOD as a function of the diameter, you should see a disruption in the curve showing the critical
diameter in cm!
From the relation Dc=2Rc
you can understand that the critical volume in ccm is Vc=Dc*Dc*Dc= 8Rc*Rc*Rc
The critical mass is thus (know ing the density d= a and the volumic mass =a g/ccm =a kg/l =a tons/cmeter)
Mc=a g/ccm * Vc
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bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
posted 05-11-2001 09:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now *this* is an interesting topic. How to do simple tests on the AP, so that w e could compare the quality. And thereby also the stability, to some extent.
matjaz January 20th, 2004, 05:12 AM

Spudgunner,
I was just wondering... being safe, do you include inner ear safety here? Simulating a shot w ound to the side of the head sound bloody close to the ear. The loudness goes as
1/r^2... so moving the explosion from 0.5m away to 5cm away is a 100 fold increase in ear load.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Dibenzoyl Peroxide - Archive File
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Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 04-19-2001 07:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,
Since there is still interest in other explosive peroxides here is another one. This is similar to one that I posted before (do a search), but does use Hydrogen Peroxide!
Dibenzoyl peroxide
Immerse a 600 ml. beaker, containing 50 ml. of 30% to 40% hydrogen peroxide and equipped with a mechanical stirrer, in an ice bath. Support two dropping funnels,
containing respectively 30 ml. of 1N sodium hydroxide solution and 30 g (25 ml) of redistilled benzoyl chloride (See Mega's sight or check out Patent 1,280,612 for another
method), with their stems inside the beaker. Add the two reagents alternately a few drops at a time, taking care that the temperature does not rise above 5-8?nd that the
solution is maintained faintly alkaline throughout. When all the reagents have been added, stir the solution for a further half an hour; by this time the odor of the benzoyl
chloride should have disappeared. Filter off the flocculent precipitate at the pump, wash it with a little cold water, and dry upon filter paper. The yield of dibenzoyl peroxide is
12 g. It may be purified by dissolving in chloroform at *room temperature* and adding twice the volume of methyl alcohol. It should not be recrystallized from hot chloroform
as serious explosion may result. The compound melts at 106 degrees. Like all organic peroxides, dibenzoyl peroxide should be handled with great care.
------------------
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-22-2001 11:51 AM
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It is sold (in the UK at least) as a hardenner for fiberglass resin. I don't know what it is mixed with to make it stable, but there are no explosion warnings on the pack. Does
anyone have any idea what might be the stablizer?
J
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'Lofty' Wiseman
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 04-22-2001 04:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello All,
Here is a little more info and there are many data safty sheets on the net!
benzoyl peroxide (dibenzoyl peroxide) (C6H5CO)2,O2,.

Properties: White, granular, crystalline solid; taste less; faint odor of benzaldehyde. Active oxygen,
about 6.5%. Soluble in nearly all organic solvents;slightly soluble in alcohols and vegetable oils; slightly soluble in water. M.p. 103-l05C; decomposes explosively above
105C. Autoignition temp. 176F; sp. gr. 1.3340 (25C).
Grades: Technical, wet or dry; F.C.C.
Containers: l-lb net fiber containers or polyethylene lined bags; standard cases contain 5, 25, and 50 containers.
Hazard: Flammable and explosive. May explode

spontaneously when dry (1% of water). Never mix unless at least 33% water is present.
------------------
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-22-2001 05:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The stuff I buy is pink, and the consistency of toothpaste. Does anybody happen to know the colour of Dibenzoyl Peroxide in different solutions?
J
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 04-25-2001 10:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello J,
Just found this! See Pat.#5334326
Bye for now........................
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J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 04-28-2001 12:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the patent, it's got me thinking about extracting the peroxide. Benzoyl Peroxide is soluble in Acetone and Ether, but insoluble in water. It's slightly soluble in
alchohols and glycols, and I guess it's mostly insoluble in alkyl benzoates and esters of ortho-phthalic acid. I've found one chemical supplier who sells 50kg of peroxide crystals
wetted with 23% water. This suggests it's a lot more stable than AP, making extraction a useful procedure to know.
It would be useful to know if the patent was ever implemeted by the companies that make resin hardenner. If not, it's safe to assume the peroxide is (mainly) mixed with
butyl benzyl phthalate, dibutyl phthalate, isobutyl phthalate, or maybe dipropylene glycol dibenzoate.
What I might try is adding a small amount of the hardenner to some Acetone, hopefully the phlegmatizer will separate out and allow me to pour off the Acetone and let it
evaporate.
Does this sound feasible? Does anyone know if the chemicals mentioned above are soluble in Acetone or Ether?
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-02-2001 10:43 AM
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I guess yes! Aceton dissolves nearly all organic compounds (especially aromatics!)
------------------
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-03-2001 12:39 AM
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Hi,
All are miscible with common organic solvents (that would include Acetone), but insoluble with water!At least the phthalates are. Bye.........................................
P.S.,Not much Peroxide in those hardenners or really diluted I believe!
------------------
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
posted 05-03-2001 07:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I have time, I'll try a few things. True, there isn't much peroxide, and they're expensive. But I'd rather pay 1 or so for a few detonators rather than mess with AP.
jlithen July 5th, 2003, 07:51 PM

Has anyone actually made Banzoyl peroxide explode?
I bought some 150grams of it from the local drugstore very cheap and thought I would try out what funny things can be done with it.
On the container it said that it contained 25% moisture so I have tried to dry it.
When litt with a lighter it makes a tiny *poof* and smells terrible...when mixed with some sulfur it burns a bit...
Why bother making it when you can buy it for electron microscopy (it said so on the container it came in)
Explosive? Seems more or less like a joke to me....
knowledgehungry July 6th, 2003, 12:04 AM

... heat it on a spoon. Even my 10% benzoyl peroxide acne cream goes bang when heated on a spoon...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Dim er or trimer ? - Archive File
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Cyware
New Mem ber
Posts: 22
From : Nom atter
posted 04-24-2001 05:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi guys,
At m y first AP synthe sis, I was taken all the precaution s , a n d I c o n d u c t e d t h e r e action at low tem perature just like at the NG
m a k i n g . I o b t a i n e d a b a t c h a r o u n d 1 0 0 g r a m s, wich, on ce thoroughly dried, produced a nice flameball in contact with fire.
Then, I was really hurried (it was 1 day before New Years Eve, and in my country New Year s Eve is the e q u i v a l e n t o f t h e
a m erican s 4 July from th e fireworks show point of view), so I haven t s o m uch tim e a n d p a t i e n c e when I s ynthesized anoth er
b a t c h . T h a t s wh y I didn t bother with the tem perature , and the glass with reactants was pretty warm when I put it in the
fridge As y o u c o u l d e x p e c t , t h e r e s u l t w a s , m a y b e , m ainly consisted o f very s ensitive dim m e r f o r m of AP.
N e x t d a y , I u s e d r e s u l t e d A P f o r m a k i n g s o m e strong firecrackers (50 g each, detonated with lead azide), and som e o f t h e
AP rem a i n e d u n u s e d ( a b o u t 1 00 g). Now, the cool part: because m y girlfriend was in the kitchen, cooking som e fry potatoes,
I f e l t t h e n e e d t o s c a r e h e r . W i t h , o f c o u r s e , a t e a s p o o n f u l l o f t h e A P c r y s t a l s , r e m a i n e d f r o m t h e fireworks show . T h e
p r o b l e m was that, in addition to 1/2 m d i a m . flam e b a l l I w a s e x p e c t e d , I a l s o obtained th e l o u d e s t B O O O M ! I ve e v e r h e a r d
so close to m y ears. And to m y girlfriend ears, too (for sure!). If fact, she was really hysterical, both were deaf, and shocked
f o r o n e h o u r So, if you want to m ake AP, DO IT AT LOW TEMPERATURES, unless you re live worth nothing for you
I think that if you are not concerned to conduct the reaction at low tem p, you'll obtain the dim eric form (m ore sensitive than
trimeric form), and th e k i n d o f t h e a c i d u s e d d o e s n ' t m atter at all (I heard that instead of sulfuric acid, you can use hidrochloric
or even citric acid). Is that true ?
FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 04-24-2001 05:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hy were you using lead azide? AP will go on its own.
I doubt citric acid will work, im pretty sure it has to be a mineral acid. Hydrochloric and sulfuric acids both work, but with sulfuric
you must pay attention to the temperature. H2SO 4 + water = heat, lots of it.
wantsomfet
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 236
From : EU
posted 04-24-2001 07:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 0 0 g A P p r o d u c e d a f l a m eball? How did you do that??? I would expect a relative powerfull detonation!
A n d u s i n g e x p l o s i v e s t o s c a r e s o m e o n e , i s * e x tremely* uncool. And if you have to do it, don't choose your girlfriend!
You should be careful with AP, a teaspoon full detonating in your hand could hurt you very bad!
------------------
catfood.tsx.org
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 04-24-2001 07:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I v e h a d m o r e t h a n t h at go off with a fireball, it was just wet, wet ap has a hard time going from deflagration to deto nation by it
self
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-25-2001 04:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y e s , f u n n y t o s e e t h a t when wet you get a oran g e m uch room fireball, but when dry, you get a bright fireball.
I suspect the guy droped the wet AP in the cooking pan of her girlfriend with frisin g oil....
" H e y h o n e y , h e r e i s s o m e s a l t . . . B O O M!"
Never drop an explosive on a hot plate, especially in a kitchen!I have done this with 0.5g of hydrazine perchlorate...what a
bang it m ade when it hit the overheated plate: the spoon, whit what I was holding it, was complete ly twisted in the form of m y
hand (before I trowed it in the air no b e e i n g a b l e t o h o l d i t ) a n d d e f o r m a t e d b y t h e s h o c k .
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Teck
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 146
From :
posted 05-03-2001 04:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I h a d a b o u t 2 5 0 g g o off on a ccident, what hap pened was I was drying a new batch that I m a d e o n m y work bench, I spread
t h e A P o n s o m e newspapers in a really thin layer, then I started working on m y shop fan that broke a few days earlier, so as I
was working I acciden tly short cicuted some wires in side the fan the next thing I see is this huge fireball in the shape of a
m ushrrom cloud go up in to the air, I was abou t three feet away from it and it burned the hair off m y right arm,
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
posted 05-03-2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How on earth did TW O HUNDR ED GRAMS of AP m ake a fireball?
I would expe ct a very m eaty detonation! Not some pussy fireball.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-03-2001 05:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it so unds like you weighed your ap wet, well ap is pretty light but m oisture will throw of your m e a s u rem e n t s b y a m i l e
-A-
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 100
From :
posted 05-10-2001 01:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I agree with wan tsom fet. Som e thing's adre NO T for m a k i n g j o k e s . O n l y a c o u p l e o f g r a m s o f s o m e fulm inating
compunds can cause deafness, and an AP cracker can even blow your hand off so be carefull.
Teck, 200 gram s??!!?!. I wouldn't be closer than a few blocks fro m that!.
brya n_wilson65
New Mem ber
Posts: 16
From : O u a g a d o u g o u , - , N i g e r
posted 05-11-2001 06:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y u p . S o m e o f you guys are most defin iteliy nuts. And I thought I was, when I made up a batch of 100g AP in one beaker. It
could have killed m e, easily.
10g of this substance in a pile will detonate violently, punching a hole straight through a roadsign. When dry of course. But 10g
can also m ake a fireball if spread out in a <1m m layer. I burned a nice picture by spreading it in a pattern.
CodeMason
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 383
posted 05-13-2001 07:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W o a h , 2 0 0 g ram s of AP is equivalent to like 10 sticks of dynam ite. You're SO fucking luck y that didn't deto n a t e o n y o u m a n .
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-14-2001 09:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So following you a stick of dynamite weights 20 g? A little too little I think don't yo u?
Also CTAP is 80% power of TNT!
------------------
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 05-14-2001 03:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Standard dynamite cartridges are (IIRC) 8" long and 1 1/4" dia and weig ht 1/2lb.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-15-2001 07:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's precisely what I meaned!
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Arthis
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 203
From :
posted 05-15-2001 11:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe a joke. Because when AP isn't confined at all , and is laid on a large area, even great quantities won't explode, just
m ake a fireb all.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-16-2001 05:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A joke???
Do you know that when trowing a lighted m atch in benzine there is 1/10 chance for it to go boom ; the nine other chances are
for the m atch to estinguish in it (yes that happens) or sim ply to burn it!
My father once had the case when lighting a we t wooden fire with benzine (only 100m l of it)....hopefully he trowed the match
from a 2 meter distance and the air flow was in the good direction otherwise he would have been burned se verely!
So no it is not a joke!
W hy the hell then som e guys here tell you that when heating 10 m g ( y e s m g ) i n t h e o p e n t h e y h a v e h a d a d e t o n a t i o n ; a n d
others tell you that when setting fire to 10g sometim e s a b i g f i r e b a l l h a p p e n e d a n d s o m e t i m e s a B O O M !
If with one chance on ten you want to take the risk, go ahead, a fter all I'm for the free will stuff! Everybody is partia lly master
of its own destiny!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Plastic explosive from HMTD - Archive File
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HNIW
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 46
From : P o l a n d
posted 05-27-2001 01:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've recently managed to m ake an plastic explosive from HMTD in the same way as C-1 using RDX. The m ain disad vantage of
this explosive is that it is extrem ely flamm able . Is there any sim ple way to make it non-flamm a b l e . T h e e x p l o s i v e i s q u i t e
s t r o n g , I m a n a g e d t o compare it with ANFO and it ocured that it is far m ore powerful. It is very easy to produce in comparison
with RDX.
sim ply RED

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 240
From : HELL
posted 05-27-2001 05:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C a n y o u p o s t t h e e x a c t m e t h o d y o u u s e d , i s i t t h e s a m e C - 1 m a n u f a c t u r i n g m e t h o d u s i n g m ineral oil, lecithin and HMTD
instead of RDX?
Hm m m m m, it is not wise to com pare such explosive to ANFO since ANFO is not powerful and brisant. Plasticizing HMTD is not
good since it's oxigen balance is negative. It's im possible to m ake it not flam a b l e .
------------------
NO POLICE, NO SUMMONS, NO CO URTS OF LAW
N O P R O P E R P R O CEDURE, NO RULES OF WAR
NO MITIGATING C IRC UMSTANCE
NO LAWYERS FEES, NO SECOND CHANC E!
SEPULTURA
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 618
From :
posted 05-27-2001 11:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes a "recipe " on how to m a k e t h e p l a s t i q u e w o u l d b e h e l p f u l . I a m a s s u ming it is moldable right? not the hard NC based AP
p u t t i e s p e o p l e t a l k a b o u t m a k i n g . T h e only way i can see that would com e close to m aking it flam e proof. is taking the
finished block and coating it in wax. Mind you this poses two problems.
A) the wax itself would have to be m olten, thus pretty dam n hot. this might upset the sensitive HMTD.
B) this will provide a false sense of secutiry, because even though hard, it might not hold up to a flame for that long before
m elting away and exposing th e actually putty.
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
HNIW
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 46
From : P o l a n d
posted 05-31-2001 01:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O k I u s e d o n l y m i n e r a l o i l f r o m c a r s a n d u s i n g h a n d s I p r e a p a r e d s o m e plastic explosive from HMTD. Although it is not a C4
but it is very sim ple to make and it is plastic so you can form it and put it for exa mple on the door and blow them away. I
compared ANFO with this explosive in a very simple way, I put them in th e s a m e kind if tree and found that this plastic
e x p l o s i v e i s s t r o n g e r . T h e m a i n d i s a d v a n t a g e i s t h a t i t c a n d e t o n a t e f r o m c o r d , e v e n i n s m a l l a m o unts(>20g in box or pipe)
you don't need a detonator.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Explosive flour - Archive File
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megalomania June 15th, 2003, 11:37 AM

sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
posted 05-07-2001 07:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok I was looking around on www.howstuffworks.com and I came across something that you guys may seem intrested in. Flour when spaced out far enough (1 or 2 grams of
dust per cubic foot) can become explosive. You can read the article on it at http://www.howstuffworks.com/question150.htm they have some pretty intresting articles.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-07-2001 08:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it is possible to ignite a cloud of flour but unless it is in a closed area it will be crapy, this kind of thing happens on accidents sometimes, the incidents are called grain elevator
explosions
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
posted 05-08-2001 12:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coal Dust/Methane in a mine shaft supposedly goes at like 6x the speed of sound(330m/sec roughly?). This was said on tlc. Chem teach did a demo with mushroom
spores(Dry) in closed it was awsome.
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SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
posted 05-08-2001 01:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
basically the larger the surface area, the quicker it burns right? so the huge surface area of the flour with air inbetween will burn relatively easily. The same can be said of the
dispersion of FAE's
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 05-08-2001 02:53 PM
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I was talking to anthony about this, and he said that he got his spudgun and filled the barrel up with flour, and shot it into a camping stove flame thing.
I just tried it, I was using a 1metre long 40mm wide barrel on my spudgun, filled with flour, and I had a mini-bonfire at the back of my garden, and you know the rest. Bloody
hell, you try it, for me it created a bloody fucking ENOURMOUS flame!!!!! A massive yellow cloud of fire, about the size of a van/truck. After you could get the smell of burning
flour.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-08-2001 04:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had best results with corn flour but it does surprise people
Agent Blak, 300m/s is rougly mach 1 (assumbing 1000fps = mach 1).
I'm not *sure* but I think flour is actually detonatable
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
posted 05-08-2001 07:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Theres a breif mention of this in the "Initiator for dust explosions" section of the IMH, it claims that five pound charge initiated by the device will destroy a 2,000 cubic feet
enclosure.
Gasoline works better
Desmikes June 15th, 2003, 09:10 PM

I am pretty sure that speed of sound IS 330 mps (varies w/t of course) so six times that will be about 2000 mps and as far as I know even military FAE's can't do that. I think
its like 1800 max. I don't think that it's possible for a cloud formed by natural means (perhaps excluding mines) to be big enough to go from deflagration to detonation
anyway. FAE's are always detonated with a secondary charge otherwise they will just burn.
Substitutig sulfur for flour gives much better results and it is even more fun when you mix in some AP (makes it ignite much easier) hwver I'm yet to successfully detonate any
FAE in open air, it usually just burns. Has anybody had more luck with it than I?
I gotta find some POS shed that I could do some gasoline experiments in. I did some calculations and figured that you need close to 5 liters of gasoline per 10 cubic meters.
Imperial July 21st, 2003, 08:10 AM

Does anyone know approximately what power of flame would be needed to ignite flower? Like just a small spark or a relatively hot flame?
It sounds like a good idea for a display or practical joke, but it may be dangerous if it burns too hot. I have heard of using cornflower for special effects, etc. but I have never
tried it. If it burns out quickly and doesn't release too much energy, then I think it may be good to try for experimentation's sake. If it burns at too hot a temperature, though,
it may not be such a good idea. Same with ignition temperature. It needs to be reasonable.
As for the dust notion, if something is suspended in air as dust, and contains something which has a lot of chemical potential energy like carbohydrate or petrol, etc. then it is
going to cause a much larger fireball than if it was just lying around and it is going to be a lot easier to ignite. The reason for this is that when it is suspended in air, it is
surrounded by oxygen which is required for combustion, and a lot more surface area is in direct contact with oxygen than when it isn't suspended. This makes for a faster,
hotter, and easier to trigger reaction. It is also the reason that Molotov Cocktails (the petrol, etc evaporates inside the bottle) and aerosol flamethrowers work so well.

I need to correct you on a few points.
First, the principle of Molotov cocktails is to put fire to something (a car, a building, what you want) by spreading some fuel (even better is a bit gelified) on it. The bottle
makes this incendiary device easy to handle. As petroleum burns well, when the bottle is broken it comes partially in contact with the flame that makes the whole liquid burns.
Nothing to be compared with FAEs.
You're right about aerosols.
You're on a pyro forum, so telling us there is no way making too hot fireballs is quite funny. If you're too scared to make explosives then don't. We don't care. Anyway,
whatever the temperature may be when burning, without precautions you can be burnt. You won't stand either 800 or 1200 C.
Corn flour is not really used in pyrotechnics, it's dextrin, which is obtained by cooking the flour, that is used.
Flour is not easily flamable. As told by desmikes, even sulfur works better with a little AP. A small mix of AP and flour should give you a nice fireball, even if AP alone too. A
relatively hot flame is needed to lit the flour, as it's no really a fuel.
But for that you need to make AP, what you don't seem to be ready to. It may work with a firecracker, but that's not sure. In case you can use a little fuel to make an ignition
flame. Not on all the flour otherwise it won't spread in the air to make a fireball, flour particles will agglomerate and it will be fucked.
yt2095 July 21st, 2003, 08:43 AM

apparently dried milk powder gives impressive results also (probably the hydrolysed fat content being a fuel in its own right)
I remember watching some sort of documentary many years ago, where 2 identical pianos were set in a feild. one had a small stick of dynamite only in it, and the other had
the same charge with a bag of milk powder around it.
the 1`st piano was a mess after detonation but the second one was match sticks! i remember thinking no way! but they did other demos with other powders and different
setups and it was YES WAY!
I`m wondering if a small PC fan and a battery with a hopper/funnel to feed flour into the fan to airiate the flour to fill large areas, or down a pipe for displays? certainly a
cheap way to make large fire balls, without having to mess with volatile liquids.
Imperial July 21st, 2003, 08:50 AM

Of course I am not scared to make too hot explosives, I just need to know how hot they are so I can take the necessary precautions :D. In my experience, I have known
many who have experimented with things like the Anarchist's Crapbook and been seriously injured. I don't want that to happen to me, so I intend to take precautions.
I have tried AP before, and I find it to be reasonably fun and reliable. I have never mixed it with flour, though.
If flour isn't too explosive and is hard to ignite, I can see little use in it other than something to spread a flame/fireball.
What I am thinking is having a primary device surrounded by a sack of flour, such that when the primary device ignites (something slightly explosive), it will spray flour
everywhere which will set alight from the primary device. May make a nice fireball (adding AP will make it better probably).
Of course, you could encase the dust in some sort of gel to make it adhere to things while it burns, but that would defeat the purpose of an FAE entirely.
Sorry about the Molotov Cocktail confusion; I thought that that was part of the reason it had such a huge flash when the bottle broke. What Arthis said is a lot more logical,
though, since petroleum does burn very quickly.

A fireball is a fireball, experinment with small quantities. Once you're scared, then you want to use a whole sack.
Try with 5gm AP, and 15 gm flour around it. You see how it's powerful, the risks, etc., then you can do it on a larger scale. (though the interest is pretty limited)

One accinedt happened few years ago about 2 kilometers from my house. I thought that it is fallout, armageddon, something similar or even worse. It was earth and eardrums
shattering explosion with deep tone like airbomb. Next day I went to the mill. Errr... to the crater. There wasn't any evidence that there was any building. Only big(I say big,
some 25 meters wide) hole was left. From this time i believe that FAEs are extremely powerful.
Caesar May 4th, 2004, 12:26 AM

a few days ago i took an empty paper towel role and divided it into sections. I filled it 40% with pyrodex and 60% with flour. i put alluminum foil all over it. it flashed and got
flour everywhere, but no explosion, and not even a cloud of flour, just a big area of flour. it was shot out of it more like debris than anything. any suggestions? the only thing i
could think of was to make it tighter which i think i will do this weekend.
Bert May 4th, 2004, 01:32 AM

I filled it 40% with pyrodex and 60% with flour.
What effect were you hoping to achieve, besides scattering flour around the area?
If you were hoping for a fuel/air explosion, the explosive dust would have to be dispersed in appropriate concentration BEFORE the ignition source came into contact with it.
If you wanted a fireball effect ("cremora" fireball), try using a larger ammount in a container with an open top and lifting it with black powder. Ample directions for achieving
this effect are available to you if you search-
Pyrodex is not a terribly useful material for pyrotechnics. It was designed to do the work of BP only in the higher backpressure environment of muzzle loading weapons, it burns
too slowly in most of the lower pressure pyrotechnic applications. I won't even use the stuff in my BP guns, it's very hard to prevent corrosion when using it. If you can't buy
BP, learn to make it, it's a good entry level project. Looking at your posts so far, you should concentrate on the basics and read a lot...
MightyQuinn May 4th, 2004, 10:08 AM

Better yet....
Take little 1lb bags of flour out to the 150 yard mark at your local range. Proceed to fire a .50 caliber Inceniary Blue-Tip round at the bag and watch it go....
It bursts in to a rather impressive fireball and will impress your friends. Somewhere I have a video of this effect. You would think we are shooting at gasoline.
Who said flour was boring? :D
ChocBruceMousse May 6th, 2004, 03:21 PM

[QUOTE=Imperial]Does anyone know approximately what power of flame would be needed to ignite flower? Like just a small spark or a relatively hot flame?
It shouldn't take a very large spark to ignite this...flour grinding mills have long been known to explode. There are several cases in the past 50 years which are pretty easy to
find out about. Here is an example.
http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~emju49/SP2001/webpage/intro/intro.html
This is a very obvious page, you guys already know all the qualifiers for this type of explosion.
Bert May 6th, 2004, 03:45 PM

My understanding of industrial dust explosions is that they are often 2 stage affairs- A small initial explosion or some other kind of shock or vibration event gets all the dust
stuck to the rafters, walls and etc. shook off into the air, and then an explosion takes place with this material. A candle flame is plenty to get the proper flour/air mix going,
I've seen it done deliberately. The kind of dust cloud that will sustain an explosion isn't present normaly in a space occupied by people, you couldn't breathe or see in it.
CommonScientist August 23rd, 2004, 03:59 AM

You guys should go visit my thread in the Demolition forum, about the Dust Initiator setup, and what you need, etc.
Im assuming the only thing your going to get if you put a 10g AP cap in a bag of flour is a big white mess in your blast area, right?
Bugger August 23rd, 2004, 07:14 AM

As well as an explosively combustible powder, the other requirement for an industrial dust explosion is an adequate supply of an oxidant. So, in the case of flour, it would be
most likely to occur when very finely ground, and very loosely packed. It would also to be very dry.
While excessive heat, or a hot spark from machinery, can initiate such a flour explosion, another strong possibility IMO is static electricity discharges, resulting from friction
between flour particles, and between the flour particles and handling machinery or cointainers. This is most likely when the flour is being moved; it would be especially likely if
pneumatic conveying is used, with a cyclone used to separate out the flour at the end of the ducting.
Bugger.

It's old stories and it happend often in the old times in the mills. Maybe that's why people in my country often belive that mills are haunted with vampires and monsters :D If I
find the movie that is make for high scool demonstration for higher surface higher reaction rate story kind a story (you guess right it's with flour) I will post it.
Well the aerosol explosives are very bad stuff. Mines are one of the places that it usually happens (coal dust or methane doesn't matter). It is in use by armies now. They
claim they use it for de-mining minefields as the blast produce enough pressure to activate all mines in it, but we all know that weapons can be used in number of ways (no
bad weapons just bad people). More important it is silent campain going outthere for its use as non-destructive substitute for nuclear weapons as it can leave infrastructure
intact and kill only enemy personal (hell why not chemical weapons?). I remember the article that states...500kg bomb of "conventional" army explosive fired at wall behind
which is a tank hiden destroy the wall, but bomb same size and mass with aerosol explosive make no damage to wall but destroy tank. It suck all oxygen (that kill people) in
a second (in very huge area) producing two shock waves. One with lowering the pressure durring explosion blast spreading and oxygen uptake(that destroy tank pulling the
hull out of it) and the second when the atmosferic pressure restores back (that kill those that survived somehow the first one). I believe that injuries made are not of
destructive type but more like those that divers are exposed on rapid pressure change. Old generation of this explosive use ethylen-oxyde (something carcinogenic that you
would not want to came by but...) and time fuse. I can find from place to place info that Russiens made little progress there making a self detonating kind (spreads to a rigth
concentration and say ka-boom)...I would like to know how :confused: (waaait don't shot!) :D I mean don't shoot me for not having notting relliable to back the last info!

Here is the link to a descriptive experiment which can give you a hint what is going on in that flour explosions.
http://chemlearn.chem.indiana.edu/demos/13-7%20Surface%20Area%20and%20Reaction%20Rate.htm
I can't find now the movie about that experiment I saw once but...I'll look for it again.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > som ething to try? - Archive File
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m ongo blongo
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 160
From : I live in a Creo sote Bush!
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-19-2001 07:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i rember doing a test for aldehydes a few weeks back in college. it involved using tollen's reagent(a m ixture of silver
nitrate,sodium h y d r o x i d e a n d a m m onium hydroxide) and i rem ember my teacher saying that this m ixture frequently form s a
high ly explosive com p o u n d o n s t a n d i n g a n d s h ould never attem pt to evapourate this solo ution to dryness. is this true?
if so what is it called and how powerfull is it?
how sensitive is it?
------------------
i like blowing shit up
Fallout85
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 55
From : U .S.
posted 06-20-2001 05:16 AM
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Your talking about fulminating silver. Mind you, not silver fulm i n a t e . T h e s o d i u m hydroxide reacts with the silver nitrate to form
s i l v e r o x i d e a n d s o d i u m nitrate. The silver oxid e then reacts with the amm onium hydroxid e to form fulminating silver. It isn't
very practical though because it is very sensitive to the sm a l l e s t m o v e m e n t a n d s l i g h t h e a t i n g . I h a v e h a d a f e w b a d
experiences with this substance like exploding on the filter pape r. It crea ted a nice little hole in m y table top. My advice is to
avoid it. If you feel you must play with it exercise saftey and work with small amo unts (like a few grains or less). It is of no
real use other than cheap entertainme nt.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From : G u e s s
posted 06-20-2001 03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to m ention the $5 an ounce ($90/pound)cost of silver. Too expensive for anything practical.

T h e e x p l o s i v e c o m p o u n d i s o f t e n q u o t e d a s b e ing Ag2NH or Ag3N.

Ag2O + 4NH3 + H2O --> 2[Ag(NH3)2]+ + 2O H -
And when evaporated the com p l e x d o e s n o t d e com p o s e s t o f o r m a m m onia. It sa ys in the book 'Inorganic C hemistry and
Applications Volume II' (Book is in Turkish) "it is supposed that the com plex is isostructural with AgNH2 or Ag3N"

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Enneaheptite Pentanitrate - Archive File
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Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
posted 06-19-2001 08:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know if it is the correct english term. I have read in an old patent about this HE and Im interested to know more.
It shall be a little less sensitive than PETN
and it has a little higher brisance.
enneaheptite alcohol ( original name in the patent is Anhydroenneaheptite) is made from formaldehyde and aceton. The nitration is done by mixed acid.
Has anyone heared about this stuff?
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 06-20-2001 07:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pentanitrate of anhydroenneaheptite hasn't proved to be very usefull, although you're right in saying it has a greater brisance than PETN and is less sensible, the yield of
the alcohol production is very low. Acetone & Formaldehyde form mostly polymers like CH2=CHCOCH3.
I'll mail you the whole text.
------------------
kangaroooo.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited June 20, 2001).]
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-20-2001 08:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could you please send it to me as well?
Thanks.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-21-2001 09:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formol has the hability to add itself to various activated hydrogenated carbon... thus in alfa of a ceto group a nitro group!
Basically thus
1)CH3-CO-CH3 + OCH2 --> CH3-CO-CH=CH2 + H2O
And then partially CH3-CO-CH2-CH2OH after water addition and a little polymerisation.
The beta cetoalcool is now more activated than the first aceton and can capt two more CH2O what is in exces in the process:
CH3-CO-CH2-CH2OH + 2CH2O --> CH3-CO-C(CH2OH)3
The other side can do the same after a long time of reaction to lead to (HOCH2)3C-CO-C(CH2OH)3 an hexol containing 7 carbon is thus synthetised.
This hexol can be hexanitrated to lead to a brother of PETN!
2)CH3-NO2 + CH2O --> CH2=CH2-NO2 + H2O
Polynitrovinyle can be made from that monomer (nitrovinyle) here again following experimental conditions you get the alcool
HO-CH2-CH2-NO2 that reacts further to (HO-CH2)2CH-NO2 and finally to (HO-CH2)3C-NO2.
This last one can be nitrated to another PETN brother with a higher power, about the same sensitivity!
Enjoy the discovery of the nearly infinite world of organic chemical reactions.....

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > A Big charge of Ap - Archive File
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MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-04-2001 07:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To get the real feeling of the power of ap, you make a batch with 200 ml 30% peroxid, 150 ml aceton, and 40 ml hcl acid.
With this recepie you get a coke can full of ap.
After its dry you poor all the ap in a plastic container/pipe, insert a fuse. light and run like hell. I did this yesterday in my
backyard. and the shocwave rattled all the windows in my neigbourhood, god damn what a great feeling you get when you feel
the ground shake under your feet, better then sex.
And i was just wondering if there's anybody here who have or know's anybody who have detonated big charges of ap.
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
posted 01-04-2001 08:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The biggest charge i ever used was about 50g it was electrically ignited. we digged a small hole about 15cm in diameter and
30 cm deep, put the charge in and filled the hole with earth...
when igniting we were about 60 metres away and still felt a slight vibration of the ground... The crater left was about 20-40 cm
in diameter, conic formed and 90 (!!!) cm deep...
Another big one was a 20mm cartridge filled with HMTD. we put about 15 empty beer cans and one other heavier can around it
forming two rings around the charge and ignited..
We felt the shockwave in our faces although we were about 50m away... searching for traces there were beer-can-fragments
(biggest about 5cm) in two rings of about 20 and 45 metres... The heavier can was not destroyed but chucked away for nearly
100m... this was fun
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[This message has been edited by NightStalker (edited January 04, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 01-04-2001 04:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the biggest charge that I set off was one pound! (450 g.) it actually made the newspapers (local) ans semi-state enough said
I will go deeper into the woods next time! I herd 3 car alarms go off!
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
posted 01-04-2001 06:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone got pics taken from such explosions?
I'd like to see such pics cause each time i regret i took none...
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SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
posted 01-04-2001 07:33 PM
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A side note is that your formula is acetone defecient. For 200ml of 30% H2O2 there is 60ml of H2O2. Using the ratio 1:6 you
should be using 360ml of acetone ! Think how much more you'd get !
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MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-05-2001 08:25 AM
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Ok, so i should use more aceton then peroxid, I just used the standard recepie in the makshift arsenal, but insted of 3% i
used 30%. I think it's the first and last time i detonate such amount's of ap, I almost shit my self when i was pouring the ap
in the container (thinking that it could detonate by it's own weight).
I've got many good detonations of ap, hmtd and other explosives on videotape, when i get around to it, i'll get it onto the
computer an out on a website.
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
posted 01-06-2001 08:19 AM
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Holy fucking shit MasterM!!! A whole coke can amount in your yard! I would so love to see a video of that. Do you live in
Australia? If you do can you tell me where to get the 30% H202. Thanks bud, oh and can you let us know when you upload the
vid/pics please. A whole bloody coke can....
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-06-2001 08:40 AM
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I live in Norway and i get my 30% H202 from paint/hardware stores, it is sold in 2 litre cans, and is used for bleaching furniture
and wooden floors. The price is 250 norwegian kroner, witch is about 35 us dollar. Not espesially cheap for u guys, but i live in
a very expensive country.
I'll let you know when i've uploaded the videos.
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
posted 01-09-2001 09:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a dream last night...
That the largest i've done was about 2/3 of a coke can, but it was in a plastic container. This was done down on rock/mud
flats, it was placed ontop and just had a fuse to it. It created a hole about 30cm wide and 15cm deep into rock and mud.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-09-2001 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IF YOU think about it, it a prettty big waste. A whole coke can with annm with an ap det would cost less than a dollar. And it is
more powerful, just something to keep in mind..Although the ap explosiions you guys described must have been sweet!
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Explosives Archive
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-09-2001 09:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh yeah! I've done two coke cans of ap putty taped together. I did it in a huge field in the middle of knowhere, when i set it
off i was about 300 meters away and the noise it made made my ears ring (i did it above ground) and it had a slight metallic
ring to the boom. Rocks and mud flew everywhere, it was great.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 01-10-2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have bought 200ml of Acetone + some Pvc pipe im gonna make a shitload of Ap Crackers with it i use 30% H2O2 ,,I will
make this a few day`s before 20Jan because ad that day some friend`s with camera`s are gonna come to my place i will putt
the movie`s+photo`s on my site http://www.section1.f2s.com
I have some ideas to blow up:A pile of brick`s/A Pay Phone/Putting the Ap Cracker in a gap from a tree,,More ideas are
welcome
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
posted 01-11-2001 06:42 PM
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DAMN!!! i always used the original method, (lowreys) and i get a film container full or so. what have i been missing? a whole
lot! i'm off to find 30% h2o2!!
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-12-2001 06:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got an idea DarkAngel, just drill a hole in a big trea, insert a 100g charge of ap, and watch it go! That would make some
nice photos/movie.
Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
posted 01-12-2001 01:39 PM
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And watch a sliver of wood shoot out at 200mph and gouge your eye out
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 01-12-2001 01:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh god thank you that you give us the "ZOOM" function on camera`s
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
posted 01-12-2001 03:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Dark Angel,
you can some of your AP crackers on old appliances like TV's, refigerators, and washing machines.
you can find them at the dump, but it might be hard to transport them
(im lucky i have a pickup truck)
I found these big trailers out in the middle of the woods about a mile away from the road and I might have to do something
about them 2 or 3 kilos of ANNM might do the trick
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 01-13-2001 10:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah cool!!
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-19-2001 12:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
im gonna blow up a monitor (without glass) tommorow in the woods...Im gonna use up all of bad ap i made awhile ago when
the solution boiled...And i forgot to wash it so i gotta get rid of it fast, its turning green on contact to metals in like 3
seconds!..IM gonna set the ap off with a det because the ap is barely flame sensative! (thats a first) Ill take pictures of the
remaining pieces if any. Ill try to get a mid-explosion pic which might be difficult, but well see..Im thinking on placing the
monitor in a hole to collect debris.
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Explosives Archive
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-19-2001 01:44 AM
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How many grams you using to blow it up?
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 01-19-2001 07:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im gonna blow stuff up to tomorrow,,Fuck i need also something special,,I wil find something i think
Ps this fish that im eating now is delicious!!
--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a <>!!!
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited January 19, 2001).]
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-20-2001 06:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, i blew up the monitor today, but i dont have a pic of it blowing up because the betteries ran out when a lit the sparkler
fuse! But i have a picture of the remains
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Explosives Archive
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-20-2001 07:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How much AP did you use to blow up the monitor?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-20-2001 09:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
about 1/8 a pop can full..not much but it totaled it..there was pieces of it like 40 meters away! Once i get the film developed,
ill scan in all the pics...im gonna do more experements like this..i might put a coke can full of ap in a stove..that should be
great fun! OH, btw, has anyone ordered from pyrotek? i ordered some fuse about 4 weaks ago, i live in canada, about how
much longer will it take? Its probally at the boarder or something stopped by the stupid customs
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Explosives Archive
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
posted 01-20-2001 09:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ordered 20ft. of waterproof fuse and a from Pyrotek and it took about 10 days to get delivered, but that is because I live
about 200 miles away from where they are located (no stupid customs)
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-20-2001 10:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hehhe, how'd you use it, did you put it underneath the monitor or in it? That's pretty cool though.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-21-2001 12:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i put it in the monitor
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Explosives Archive
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-21-2001 12:30 AM
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Can you pretty please with a cherry on top post the pcitures sorry if i sounds stupid im just wasted right nowhehehee
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-21-2001 12:35 AM
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hehe..ok..i just have 2 pics..1 or the aftermath i guess u could say, and one of the "device"
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Explosives Archive
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-21-2001 08:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got some pretty cool pictures too, pictures of what a copperpipe filled with ap does with a steel breadbox. Before an after
pictures. My dream is to blow up a toilet, and get it on film.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 01-21-2001 01:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post those pic`s here i wanna see them,,I will have also some pic`s later this week i hope
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-21-2001 02:07 PM
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MASTERMAYHEM: i blew up a toilet when i was 12. My toilet. Can you belive that one lady finger firecracker would shatter a
toilet bowl!?!? Needless to say, my mom was extremely pisses off!
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Explosives Archive
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-21-2001 03:03 PM
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I used to modify firecrackers, by filling them with a bit of mercury fulminate then the rest of the space with dynamite!! One of
those would absolutely shatter a toilet!
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-22-2001 04:14 AM
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ALENGOSVIG1: I Have a dream of totaly destroying a toilet with, say a 400-500g charge of ap, film the detonation, and
watching it in slowmotion over and over again...
I'll develope the pictures me and my buddie took in the weekend probably this or the following week.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-22-2001 11:36 AM
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great!
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Explosives Archive
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
posted 01-22-2001 04:46 PM
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Not sounding impatient...but where are the pics!?
My college has like drawers full of digital (still) and motion (DV) cameras that they lend out without a fuss, so I'll borrow one of
those (with my own tape of course!) and when I get my new TV-capture card I'll put some pics up. Fortunately for me, my dad
has a garage full of monitors and I live in the middle of no-where. I have a place, about 1 mile from my house called 'The
Destruction Zone' that looks like a bomb has hit it (oh yeah, one kind of has!) so I'll be using my AP + ANNM + monitor.
Also, what do people have against toilets. I'd rather get a cheapo RC car, strap a AP charge to it, light it, and set it off down
the road Madness!
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
posted 01-22-2001 05:52 PM
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You gotta destroy a junked up car, that would be the ultimate.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
posted 01-23-2001 06:19 PM
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two words, tool shed
either that or a piece of construction equipment like a bulldozer or a backhoe or something to that effect
(might take a lot of ANNM).
more rules apply to this kind of thing though
(destruction of private property)
like:
1. make sure that it is in the middle of nowhere
2. make sure nobody sees you
3. make sure there is no people around
(do it around 1-2am)
I am lucky because I live in the middle of nowhere and I don't have any neighbors for about 1/2 a mile
I also live right next to a lot of orange groves and those go back about 5 miles and every couple hundred meters there is a
shed (about 500 cubic feet in size) that controls the sprinkler system in the groves.
I need to do something about these!
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
posted 01-30-2001 05:58 PM
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scratch the tool shed idea, they are usually too close to houses.
Four days ago I blew the hell out of a pota potty
I used half a coke can size ammount inside of a thin walled plastic container
(centrum pill bottle)
with an eight inch fuse. The AP was pressed using some paper towels and part of a toilet paper tube.
I placed the container on top of the closed toilet seat.
The fuse was about 15 seconds, which gave me enough time to run about 50 yards.
the detonation was extremely loud my sister said she heard it and she was about a mile away! the device nearly demolished
the porta potty, there were fragments of thick plastic toilet seat about 30 ft. away from it, a large burn mark about 10" across
was made on the ceiling, the walls inside were badly scarred, and the metal vents on the sides were blown out. and there was
the thick odor of detonated acetone peroxide in the air
(what the hell is that gas? it really reaks) this was the biggest charge I have detonated so far, and next week I am planning to
use twice this ammount on the porta potty!
I'll make those damn walls blow off of it and send the door into orbit!
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-30-2001 06:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if it is th kind of porta potty with the hole dug below the toilet, mabe you can get a gas explosion going in there.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 01-30-2001 07:06 PM
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im going to blow up a dishwasher :-)
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Explosives Archive
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 01-30-2001 07:51 PM
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aren't dreams great, you can do so much in them and still have your fingers the next morning. i love deaming up cool shit,
shit that would actually pass muster in the real world my cousing blew the shit out of a porta potty with a fairly large BP filled
pipe bomb. i wasn't there but he said it was a pretty big explosion that demolished the thing. i would suggest putting the
bomb in the actual toilet for added confinement.
------------------
...
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 01-30-2001 08:18 PM
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that would be real floater! ha
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 01-30-2001 08:36 PM
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If one of you guys blows up a porta potty, a shed, or dishwasher you better get it on tape or at least have a before and after
or explosion pic, if you didnt it would be a selfish crime to keep such an extrodinary event from us, so next time, you do
sumtin like that get videos or pictures, think of how cool it would be if everyone took pictures of there awesome ap explosions
and we had a whole thread for them, 30 pictures would keep me interested for like 7 hours
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 01-30-2001 08:52 PM
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yeah it would be awsome getting the forum closed down and all and some of us going to jail!
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-31-2001 06:07 AM
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Just put up a webpage with the pictures, and let us know.
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-31-2001 11:11 AM
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I just blew up a old washing maschine with a 60g charge of the best quality AP, and oh my god that was awsome, I just regret i
didn't take pictures or film, it was great.
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
posted 01-31-2001 02:11 PM
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BP pipe bombs are too KeWl for me I made them when I was 14-15 then I got bored of them.
If I had used something like copper for the bomb container insetead of thin plastic it would have absolutely demolished the
porta potty, and the door (or fragments of it) would have decapitated me seeing as it was a half soda can sized ammount.
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 01-31-2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why would we all go to jail, the pics would just be pics of regular, legal firecrakcers, that we were pretending were ap bombs, or
pics from frinds that gotta from their uncl who found them on the floor of his friends house, who just died
MasterMayhem
Frequent Poster
Posts: 84
From: Norway
posted 01-31-2001 05:19 PM
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I'm putting up a webpage when i get around to developing my pictures
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 01-31-2001 09:39 PM
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we would not go to jail for looking at the, but it is a potential hazard for the person posting. (not a bighazard, no one can
really prove it is actual AP) the only people that can get in trouble are people that actually do the shit that we talk about.
------------------
...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 02-01-2001 11:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem isn't just you're using AP, but the fact that you're blowing the fuck out of a porta potty - criminal damage, setting
off explosive devices in a public place/without permission etc etc
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 02-01-2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but as long as you are not the one who does it, then you are fine. just looking at the shit, through pictures off the web isn't
going to get you into trouble.
------------------
...
Mammut
New Member
Posts: 39
From: Essen,NRW,Germany
posted 02-01-2001 04:22 PM
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Hi
i had taken 20g Ap in a 200cm3 bottle
then stand the bottle on a fall tree.
After the *KAAAWUUUUMM* explosion there
WAS A BIG HOLE in there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 02-01-2001 04:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no, there was another post before mine, probably was deleted
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 02-25-2001 07:00 PM
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Today, a large charge of acetone peroxide was detonated. I didnt weigh the charge, but the tube was 6 inched long, and 2
inches wide. The acetone peroxide was prepared with 3 batches of 60ml h202 + 48ml acetone + 20 ml of HCl. The charge was
placed in a pile of logs, branches and large rocks. I lit the charge at retreaded 200 meters. The detonation threw shrapnel 20
feet away from me. I felt it on my face and heard it echo for atleast 6 seconds. A bit better than my last clacium hypochloare
naptha explosive.
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Explosives Archive
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 120
From: Petersburg
posted 03-05-2001 11:44 AM
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My dream is to set off a a paint can (1 gal) full 2/3 way with annm and 1/3 ap and set if off in this old well that is like 12 miles
out of town!!! This would take the well out of the ground wouldnt it?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!? I can imagine it now .....300 m away with
ear plugs in and BWAM Im on my back from the shockwave!
------------------
"Oh Sh".::BOOM::((later
"it"
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 03-05-2001 03:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
good to see you back, Sgt_Starr.
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 120
From: Petersburg
posted 03-05-2001 06:09 PM
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::sniffle sniffle:: I was missed ?!? lol
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"it"
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 03-06-2001 04:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hehe, just wondered where you were all that time
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
posted 05-23-2001 12:38 AM
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Hey guys/gals (don't wanna be sexist here). But anyways I filled up a coke can with AP and with other stuff (just to make it
more sensitive) so basically I had a big catapult made of pipes and bunsun burner tubing (a very powerful catapult)I have
launched bricks, accurately, over 30 mts. So I put my Ap filled can in it and aimed it at a 2 brick thick wall. It was some old
beside a closed bridge. No habitation for a 3 mile radius.So I let her rip ......and boy did it rip. It not only blew the shit out of
the target wall but the bunch of bricks that were directly in contact with the coke can were projected back at such a high velocity
that they crushed the bricks the hit. The distance between the walls was about 15 feet and like I said earlier .....it was a 2 brick
thick with cement and was 12X12 feet.
The shock wave would have probably blown my eardrums from 70 mtrs. Thank God for ear plugs. I really felt the shock wave
hit me on the chest. Unfortunately ...no pics but feel free to ask me for as detailed a narration as anyone would like...
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-23-2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you know the acceloration of a catapult that size is enough to set off AP. be very careful when putting shock to ap
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-23-2001 06:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"and with other stuff (just to make it more sensitive)" - Err, good plan batman!
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 05-23-2001 09:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well guys u don't actually u don't need a very larg accleration ....It would have blown up even if I had just thrown it like a
baseball. I used the catapult so I could throw it from a safe distance. Well its basically not making the AP sensitive but the
whole can as a device is sensitive to shock. All u have to do is to pack the AP thightly with gravel (Not a lot. A handful is
enough for a coke can). And u don't wanna press to hard so as to cause the stones to rub together while u r packing it. I used
miniature versions of that in gelatine capsules. But u need a catapult to set them off from a distance as they r quite light. For
those u need small gravel chips or if u don't find them small enough or have the patience to make them....U could roll up AP
with bigger chips in Al foil. The ones made in Al foil detonate on hand throwing...so be careful....the capsules seem to be quite
safe but need to be protected from H2O. In this sort of application, HMTD is about 1.5 times more powerful than AP.
*Note* >>> The capsules or the small Al foil rolls can kill a human. If they r made to detonate on the head or the sturnum.
I have played around with AP and HMTD a lot .. And I have extensive knowledge on their power and behaviour in different
conditions. Mixing them with different fuels, explosives etc. I would be happy to share with anyone who is intereasted.
------------------
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 05-25-2001 06:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you guys are talking about filling acoke can 2/3 full of ap do you lightly press it in by hand or just leave it loose
because to be honest i shit my self if i press hmtd in to a small tube .ive only made ap once & i didnt think it was as good as
the hmtd i made i find hmtd pretty safe so i havent bothered with ap but ap is cheaper & is easier to make youve got be mad
or insane to press that much ap in container.i might try it if i dont shit MYSELF to late
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-26-2001 12:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also people say the detonated a large amount of AP (in weight) well you might have but chances are you measured it wet, to
get alot better results dry the AP thouroghly before using and weighing.
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-30-2001 03:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A news report about 2 weeks ago reported:
A teenager building a pipe bomb severly injured. A closer inspection of the article revealed he had a pipe in a vise on his
workbench, the pipe was full of acetone peroxide (estimate 150 grams). As the young man was carefully tamping the
explosive it detonated. Most of the shrapnel struck him in the abdomen.
In fact anyone on this site would be shocked at the number of maimings this explosive has caused. I wrote this so those
uninformed who must experiment with this paticular explosive, at least treat it with the respect it deserves.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-30-2001 07:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/pyrotec/texte/aufl.htm
I also can't read it all but only a few words and the cross say enough to understand it
------------------
DarkAngel

[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited May 30, 2001).]
ftsman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: melb
posted 05-31-2001 03:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn so sensitive. would i be able to set off say 1 coke cans worth with a crossman air rifle fully pumped(10x). if it makes a
differance pointed tips
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-31-2001 03:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh, yeah a pellet gun will set it off at 10 pumps without pointed pellets, I make bb/pellet gun targets with acetone peroxide.
I fold it up in Al foil and put behing the target. crossmans 1077 (I beleve) sets off the ap with 2 measly pumps with a bb or a
pellet. don't underestimate AP, it is extremly sensitive. also I wouldnt recomend shooting a pellet gun at a coke can of ap
mainly beacause soda cans fragment damn easy and can throw out little razor sharp metal slivers. if your gonna set it off with
a weapon use a 22 cb pellet& scope. that way you can do it from a distance
Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
posted 05-31-2001 03:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ dark A.
I can read it, and it say that someone have made a pipebomb and a splitter hit his head! that is all! Noting with AP, maybe BP
was in it!
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 05-31-2001 05:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@mr.explosiv. You should read it again.
"...einer meiner Besten Kumpels in folge einer Explosion von TCAP draufging..."
TCAP=AP=acetoneperoxide
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kangaroooo.cjb.net
Dracul
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
From: Melbourne, Australia
posted 05-31-2001 11:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go to http://www.dictionary.com/translate/
Enter the URL in the box down the bottom then set the translation from German to English.
------------------
"By the power of Grayskull, I HAVE THE POWER!" He-man
Check this out www.stileproject.com
Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
posted 06-01-2001 08:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes is true!
But, i know that it was a wanted explosiv, but he wanted to look at the pipe, an then...
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 06-01-2001 07:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey I think ..the guy who blew himself up didn't coat the pipe with wax and so it is possible that a crystal might have rubbed
itself hard on the coarse inside which caused the detonation. There is a possibility that his AP wasn't washed properly or was
made from impure acetone which probably contained compounds that form a more sensitive peroxide. Pure AP is relatively
safe to handle but treate it with respect. It might be easy and cheap to prepare but it certainly has a lot of power for is
simplicity and is very sensitive (not highly).
------------------
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 06-01-2001 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezikiel it could be anything so it doesn't matter to think what could be wrong with his AP,Maybe even his AP whas perfect
but it's very simple "Don't use AP as a main charge" or even better to take a whole new primary explosive for your caps if you
can make it,I still dream about AP for caps but if i can dream about a better one i would use it.
------------------
DarkAngel

Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 06-02-2001 12:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have mostly used Pb Picrate in my detonators especially when my secondary explosive is Picric acid. Never Use a peroxide
primary explosive with an acidic secondary explosive. I have used Cu2C2 also but in quite small quantaties. Pb styphanate is
also one of those compounds that r frequently used by me. Anyways don't use a primary explosive as a main charge in
quantaties over 50 gms. The coke can experiment was an exception as I wasn't crimping or stuffing anything. I basically use
HMTD now instead of AP but AP forms really cool Pyrotechnic effects unlike HMTD.
I use HMTD in my capsules and in small shaped charges.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Ether-peroxides? - Archive File
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View Full Version : Ether-peroxides? - Archive File

Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
posted 03-14-2001 02:09 PM
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I know there have been discussions on other explosive peroxides before but I never saw anything about peroxides from diethylether, lab manuals claim these to be very
dangerous and easily formed but they never mention formulas and characteristics. I know these could be supersensitive but I am gonna try it soon with very small amounts.
Ether is cheap stuff and I am kind of intrigued by the idea. Does anybody have any information on this/these compound(s)?
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 03-14-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no solid, factual info but I get the impression that it's much more volatile and unpredictable than even AP.
Also, I've heard urea can form a peroxide. Is this explosive? I think it probably is. Anyone know how it's made?
You couldn't get cheaper than that - H2O2, HCl and urine!
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
posted 03-14-2001 05:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't Urea totally different to good 'ol piss (urine)? Or then again isn't it the main constituent of urine?
I've also read about ethers forming explosive peroxides: (quote from model fuel site)
Di-Ethyl Ether
--------------
EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE
NO SMOKING
Risk Phrases
- Extremely Flammable
- May form explosive peroxides
- Harmful if sw allowed
- Repeated exposure may cause skin cracking
- Vapours may cause drowsiness or dizziness
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
posted 03-14-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heared Ether-peroxid forms when ether in a large, nearby empty, white-glass bottle is placed direkt in sunlight. ( normal are brow n-glass bottles)
It is a horror to all lab staff.
A friend works in a lab where was found an old forgotten ether bottle somewhere in the lab. There was a layer of brownish crystals at the bottom.
They have evacuated the lab until the fire brigade has removed the bottle.
Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
posted 03-15-2001 08:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I know, but this process takes a lot of time, I also don t think that concentrated H2O2 w ill do the trick. It seems that there is little to no info on these peroxides, w hich might indicate
how dangerous to handle they really are.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 03-16-2001 04:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urine is a solution of urea. But it would be a lot better and more hygenic to buy it pure, I think!
?? NH2-CO-NH2 + 4H2O2 ---HCl catalyst---> NH2-O2-CO-O2-NH2 + 4H2O ??
If that is correct, then urea peroxide has a very good oxygen balance, and will probably be very powerful. Maybe too unstable to use though.
I'll see if my local garden centre has any urea, and if they do I'll try it this weekend. I'll use the same basic method as for AP, unless anyone has any better ideas. Don't worry,
I'll only make about quarter of a gram, so if it blows up for no reason it won't be too bad.
pete
Frequent Poster
Posts: 56
From: u.k
posted 03-17-2001 05:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The peroxide of ether is way to dangerous to be of any use, you can't even handle them dry, as they explode that easily. I would leave these perticular peroxides, if you still
dought, then check any good chem text book for ether, the peroxide is very dangerious.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-04-2001 04:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urea peroxyde is not unstable otherw ise it wouldn't be sold in shops!!!!
Ether peroxydes are amongst the more sensitive stuffs.
As I have mentionned earlier in the forum:
Peroxyde are produced by a lot of products upon contact with the oxygen of the air and light.
Those products contain usually:
*the ether group R-O-R and the ease of formation increase from primary R to ternary R (Thus R= CH3- *double and triple links can allow peroxydation too... here a peroxyde
in a monomer can generate an explosive polymerisation (yes peroxydes are used to initiate polymerisations to produce plastics).
*some halide in alfa and beta of a double link produce peroxydes with ease and lead to the same problems as above, cristals and polymerisation.
*ceton, aldehydes, hemicetals, cetals, hemiacetals, acetals does also quite easily.
So yes peroxydes are a hell for chemists and playing with them has nothing to do with playing with AP or HMTD!!!!!
------------------
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 04-04-2001 04:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to have posted twice the same text but a part was not given due to a missing space with my enumeration of < < < ....
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
posted 04-06-2001 04:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have this wart remover liquid, that is ether based, and when i was looking through my cabinet for anything fun to play with i remembered this post and checked out the bottle,
there w as some crusty stuff by the cap, so i scraped it off, and w hen i lit it, it melted and then went "putuck", and made a little flash of fire,it w as a very small amount but an
unquestionable explosive happening
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 04-06-2001 07:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It contains nitrocotton (nitrocelluose)the same as new skin its 20 yrs since i used that stuff im suprised i remember i used it for my varuka my selling is shit
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
posted 04-06-2001 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that was meant to say spelling .thinking about itw as how alfred nobel invented blasting gelatin & the gelatin dynamites in 1875 when he cut his finger he used new skin on the
cut & that got him thinking about using using colliodion cotton for gelatinization of nitro glycerin
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 05-17-2001 08:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the formula of Diethylether peroxide is CH3-CH-(O-OH)-O-CH2-CH3
The (O-OH) is bound to the CH-. And the CH- is also bound to the ether group.
I also have a test for it cause we uesd it w hen we used to use old ether bottles in the lab. The peroxide is ether soluble so u can't detect it's presence w ithout the test.
The test is ....Take a sample of the ether and add it to freshly prepared FeSO4 solution and shake it well. Then add KCNS solution. The appearance of a blood red color indicates
the presence of a peroxide.
There is usually a small amount of ethanol in the ether to prevent peroxidation from the atmosphere. The ethanol forms some sort of an organic carbonate.
I tried to make it but the problem I ran into w as it's extraction from ether. But that ether detonates on heating in an open vessel (~ 60-70*C). That stuff is pow erful.
------------------
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-18-2001 03:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me think it is K-SCN (thiocyanate) and not K-CNS isothiocyanate that's used for Fe(SCN)3 red blood characterisation!
Indeed the Fe2+ ion is oxydised readily by peroxydes into Fe3+....from w hat the color comes otherw ise there is no such color!
------------------
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-18-2001 03:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strange I always knew diethylether peroxyde to be CH3-CH2-O-O-CH2-CH3; the compound you have showed is more like an also wel known peroxyde: hemiacetal peroxyde
from the ethylhemiacetal CH3-CHOH-O-CH2-CH3!
And thus the peroxyde of it is CH3-CHOOH-O-CH2-CH3 < == = > CH3-CHOH-O-O-CH2-CH3!
------------------
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-18-2001 10:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
For some information on peroxides and there dangers, check out these tw o sights!
http://ww w.cc.umanitoba.ca/campus/health_and_safety/explosives.html
Some good pictures here;

http://home.cyberave.com/~rhr/ether.htm
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Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 05-19-2001 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philou: (in response to an earlier post)is urea peroxide sold in shops? I've never seen it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-21-2001 04:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes as a w ater treatment!Bacteria,... killer!
Now it is not sold in all countries since it is useless if you have access to H2O2, javel water, dichloroisocyanurate of Na,... KMnO4,...
------------------
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 05-23-2001 11:36 AM
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OK, thanks.
What is javel w ater?
PHILOU Zrealone
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Posts: 479
posted 05-23-2001 12:21 PM
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2NaOH +Cl2 + H2O--> NaOCl + NaCl +2H2O
Thus javel water is a mix of Na hypochlorite and chloride!
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Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-02-2001 01:12 PM
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Another question, also regarding urea peroxide: is it sold pure? MEKP is sold here as a catalyst, and that's explosive, but they sell it in solution.
Also, does anyone have info on THFP (tetrahydrofuran peroxide)? I believe THF can be found as a solvent for PVC.
I'd be interested in in the formulas of both THF and THFP, and power/sensitivity of THFP compared to AP, HMTD and/or ether peroxide. Methods for manufacture, VoD etc would
also be great. Yes, I know it's probably hyper-dangerous, I'm just curious. And yes, I also know of the saying "curiosity killed the cat"!
If I can work out how to put it up here I've found a very nice picture of 15 gallons of peroxidised THF being disposed of that I'll show you.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-02-2001 01:27 PM
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This has to be the best picture I've ever seen!
http://home.cyberave.com/~rhr/image/boom.jpg
As you can see, the THF wasn't fully peroxidised, resulting in a lot of extra fuel and a rather picturesque fire-ball.
(Wanted to add how the picture shows 15 gallons of THF exploding, hence the huge fireball. NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 05, 2001).]
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 06-02-2001 06:01 PM
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Hello Mr. Cool and others,
The formula for Tetrahydrofuran is,
CH2CH2CH2CH2O, I found this in the library. Do not no w ay they did not show it as C4H8O. Nothing on the peroxide as yet.
I am dreaming also of other peroxides. Did ya read the posts by MEKAP and myself? I have dreamed of MEKP and it always fails. I am thinking again after reading MEKAP's
post that it may be THFP that he made! He used PVC solvent!!!
More later I hope.
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[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited June 02, 2001).]
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-03-2001 05:48 AM
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CH2CH2CH2CH2O?
Maybe a ring structure, a bit like cyclobutane with an oxygen in the ring as w ell?
The the peroxide might just be the same with a few more oxygen atoms slipped into the ring.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 06-04-2001 10:06 AM
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Hello all,
Seems like THF is a easy PEROXIDE former. It is on all the dangerious peroxide forming chemicls web sights.
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PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-08-2001 06:46 AM
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Yes easy reason w hy there are inhibitors in it!
THF is a pentagone w ith an O on its top and CH2's on all the 4 others (-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-) close the loop and you get the THF formula!
THFP is simply an hexagone (-CH2-CH2-O-O-CH2-CH2-); you clearly see that the OB is less good than in CTAP!)
Now with a little thinking; this OB can be improved w ith cyclobutoxane (-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-) that would lead to cyclobutoxane peroxyde (very favourable since the
cyclobutoxane is angle stressed) (-CH2-CH2-O-O-CH2-)!
With paraformaldehyde peroxyde (near perfect OB thus very sensitive)(-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-) or (-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-)!
With furoxane (-CH=CH-O-CH=CH-) furoxane peroxyde (-CH=CH-O-O-CH= CH-)!
Thus the world of peroxyde is vast and full of dangers!
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Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-24-2001 11:55 AM
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My mind was wandering again today, and I thought of this:
Urea peroxide is not explosive, so it must be at least fairly stable. Well how about adding this to H2SO4/NH4NO3 -> cyclotridinitrourea peroxide! (I'm assuming that urea
peroxide has a similar structure to CTAP or CDAP, due to the C=O bond in the middle of the urea molecule, like in acetone)
I can't see any reason why it couldn't be made, in theory at least. Can you?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-25-2001 07:15 AM
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Yep! Urea or peroxydes are not very stable in acidic conditions; urea will form the uronium salt and some dinitrourea while the peroxyde part will be destroyed!
Ever tried to mix CTAP with conc H2SO4...not really good to do so!
yt2095 June 18th, 2003, 11:53 AM

Ether Peroxide is indeed very tempramental, although like any other volatile explosive, has to obey certain laws and parameters.
TATP is about as unstable as i`de dare to go personaly.
However, for experimental purposes; Acetone, Ethanol, Ether (engine start spray) and Glycerine were all subjected to the same treatment used to make TATP.
this was done sheerly just to see w hat would happen to each.
none were made in quantities above 10ml (just in case the shit hit the fan!)
for what it`s w orth, the results were;
Standard RTP.
time allow ed 12 hours.
Acetone: copius quantities of Dimetric AP

Ethanol : no visible reaction
Ether : it floated on the top even after agitation and eventualy evaporated
Glycerine: remained as a slightly syrupy mix w ith no visible reaction
All of these liquids were then poured on filter paper and allowed to evaporate for 4 hours then ignited,
only the Acetone experiment produced a significant result (as one would expect)
the Glycerine filter paper felt moist even after 4 hours dry time and the paper burned more gently than untreaded or exposed papers.
so as for Ether peroxides, i must still wait another 3 weeks for my UV reaction to take place, as i`ve read that this is the other way that peroxides can be generated, and yes,
before any says anything, it is in a quartz cuvvet and not test tube glass :)

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BaDSeeD
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Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
posted 05-17-2001 11:59 PM
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Ok some of these new topics have me thinking here. Would it be possible to make a mouldable AP putty (not a hard nc putty) that is still possible to detonate with just a fuse?
I wonder if you made a granular form of AP and NC and mixed it with... i dunno, maybe a low temp wax, or vaseline (would be kinda greasy) or hell even modeling clay or
play dough. I wonder if it would still set it all off. Maybe mixing in some bp woulld help get the temp up enough.
What do you guys think?

I know it sounds wierd... and i have had a few beers... but it might have some uses.
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BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 05-18-2001 04:28 AM
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Just try! And enjoy!But not after 9 coronas bier
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Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
posted 05-22-2001 11:34 AM
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Mixing AP with vaseline is not a very good idea since AP is not very powerful and it loses some power (much) while mixed (it oxygen balance is <0).
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-23-2001 07:20 AM
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Yeah Ap is a to weak explosive to mix with plasticizer's,and to unstable as a main charge
But i whas experimenting these days in my dream to mix AP with oil to make tongue's(I hope i spelld that right)
I dreamed that i mixed AP with oil to form a mixture that whas a bit thicker than honey,and to that i added a powder like charcoal in order to ignite the oil better.
I smeared a bit of this stuff on the ground and in front of it i placed a broken firecracker (So it won't explode but shoot's a flame when ignited)
I lighted the fuse and when the fire cracker shooted the flame the stuff burnd very cool,but it didn't explode like AP sometimes does when ignited.
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DarkAngel

eNt0n
New Member
Posts: 19
From:
posted 05-23-2001 06:25 PM
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I had a mixture made with AP, Ammonium nitrate, oil, gelantine (spelling??) and styrofoam dissolved in acetone. A very bad idea. It became very smelly, and did not explode,
just burned a little bit. Placed in a pipe with detonator caused full explosion.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 05-24-2001 05:26 AM
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Stange mixture it makes no sence to me to mix gelatine/styrofoam/oil to AP and AN to form an explosive.
Which proportion's did you use?
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DarkAngel

eNt0n
New Member
Posts: 19
From:
posted 05-24-2001 06:15 AM
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mmm difficult question. Just mixed t by hand,..
I think it cotained about 50gr AP 40gr AN, and about 20gr of oil/styrofoam-acetone.
Silent Steel
New Member
Posts: 5
From: Abandoned munitions factory
posted 05-24-2001 10:38 PM
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Has anyone tried initiating AP putty with magnesium ribbon? I realize that Mg ribbon is hard to come by, but it may be a good way to detonate moldable AP putty if you find a
good binder. (Since Mg burns with such intensity, the heat instantly causes the AP to detonate.)
(so you actually think extreme heat is what causes high explosives to detonate?, uh, no.
and to burn Mg near AP is extremly hazardous AP is VERY sensitive to thermal decomisition, so much that it's own heat from a lit part of AP causes the rest to go, this is called
deflagration, there isnt a safe way I can see to mix AP with any oxd. metal anyways. Added by PYRO500)
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited May 24, 2001).]
CragHack
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Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-24-2001 10:47 PM
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well i am sure a fuse imbedded way into the composition would have no problem igniting the AP. all you need is one crystal to explode and you are all set.
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-24-2001 11:10 PM
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oh yeah and to make ap detonate you must have a Deflagration to Detonation transformation or a strong shock, but seeing as ap is a primary anyways there is no need for
the latter, all that is needed is a casing for the ap, be that case a paper tube or some dissolved styrofoam.
oil probably does not contain the blast enough to cause the rest to detonate, it could be possible to over-saturate some flammable liquid with ap so it is thick yet pourable so
that it can be put into tight spaces safely and due to the fact that fluids don't compress you could do major damage to a small enclosed space with a mixture like that. I plan
on experimenting with that concept durring summer vacation (starts after tomorrow) wohoo!)
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
posted 05-25-2001 11:29 AM
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I tried to mix AP with vaseline to make a sort of plastic, but it needs too much vaseline, and as a result it doesn't detonate, just deflagrate with a bit power. Not a very good
idea, since AP is not powerful...
Silent Steel
New Member
Posts: 5
posted 05-25-2001 11:47 AM
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Pyro, I didn't say that heat causes high explosives to detonate. In the case of AP putty (styrofoam type), the Mg ribbon creates an almost instant transition from deflagration to
detonation. I've set off AP putty w/ Mg ribbon before, and it works fine, even though it may be dangerous.
On one occasion the putty was ignited by a regular flame, and this caused rapid deflagration, and no explosion.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-25-2001 02:58 PM
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Mg ribbon is not a fuse - it will go out if try to make it burn in an enclosed space.
Silent Steel
New Member
Posts: 5
posted 05-26-2001 12:35 PM
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I know that. The way I used it, the Mg ribbon was inserted into the putty before it hardened, resulting in a ball of AP putty with the ribbon sticking out of it.
When ignited, the ribbon would burn, and in the process soften the Mg directly under the part that was lit. This would cause the ribbon to keep folding down as it burned
towards the putty, giving a predictable delay.
Although this was used for experimental purposes, it can be adapted for practical use.
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
posted 05-26-2001 04:04 PM
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What's the point!?
I can think of plenty of better uses for Mg (making it into powder, for example). A fuse is all that is needed, and it's more reliable and predictable
Silent Steel
New Member
Posts: 5
posted 05-26-2001 06:45 PM
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The point is that I had a lot of it, and I needed something to set my AP putty off with.
Thats all.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-26-2001 08:08 PM
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Well fair enough, but was it really worth posting about?
Silent Steel
New Member
Posts: 5
posted 05-27-2001 12:48 PM
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I suggested it as another means to set off AP putty, and the post went way off topic from there.
(Get it back on topic everyone and don't make me use the delete function)
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited May 27, 2001).]
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 06-02-2001 01:13 AM
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Hello people !!!!!
I have mixed AP with different stuff and with oils or other heavy HC's I usually get a pretty big fire cloud but no explosion (I haven't tried confining the mixture yet). Well
mixing AP with rubber cement gives some really intereasting results. I there is an excess of cement (after the cement has dried out and u get a hard mass) u still would get a
fire cloud on ignition with a flame or a fuse etc. But If the propotion is just right then the hardened mass blows up (really well). So one could make the mixture ... mould it in
anyway desired like figurines (spelling) or something with decorations and paints etc with a fuse sticking out as if it were a wick of a candle.

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Teck
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Posts: 146
From:
posted 05-25-2001 02:46 AM
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Im taking blasting classes and we set off rounds with different explosives, mostly trimtex (NG + saw dust and some other shit, you never know what a headache is untill you
handle this stuff with bare hands), water gels, and slurries (slurry is a difrent type of water gel). And to tell you the truth AP and HTMD is shit compared to these explosives.
The biggest charge I ever set off using AP is 2/3 full coke can, it gave a pretty nice boom and a pretty decent crater but you take a half a stick of Trimtex (name brand) and
set it of in a 1.5 inch hole in hard ground you will feel the shock wave even if you hide behind something and the crater is about 10 times bigger than that of AP.
AP and HTMD is best used in blasting caps.
And not for making the most damage to something. I think ANNM will even do more damage to things than AP will.
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Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ideas?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
posted 05-25-2001 11:25 AM
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Who ever told that AP was powerful ? It's just an easy-to-make explosive, so it's the most used by people like me who can't manage to make/have much high explosives.
Notice that this section -about explosives peroxydes- is apart from the section high explosives. Not everyone wants to kill himself with NG based explosives.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
posted 05-25-2001 12:28 PM
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Primary explosives arent usually very powerful. MHN has some power though hehe. Thats why they arent used for blasting/etc is because there Is better things for the job.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-25-2001 02:54 PM
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Teck, dynamite is a very nice explosive especially the higher grades exhibiting high VoD and brisance. But making nitro isn't much fun, it can be expensive gives you killer
headaches and I just don't trust the stuff in liquid form. If you want enough for even one stick you need a lot of nitro, a scary amount.
From the small amounts of ammonia dynamite I've tried, it was very nice but I don't trust it enough to make a whole stick.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
posted 05-25-2001 08:23 PM
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Your personal experience means squat. So what if you weren't competant enough to make a good blast with AP? It needs to be confined and have a high density to explode.
Best results are if it is plasticized. HMTD is around as powerful as full potential AP as described above, even without those bells and whistles.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 05-26-2001 12:37 AM
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Well lets clear a few things up here. AP is a powetfull explosive and its people like you that get hurt by it. If you dont respect the power of an explsive like acetone peroxide, it
will kill you or take a limb off. Also, when you say you have detonated two-thirds of a coke can filled with acetone peroxide, how many grams do you think that is? Acetone
peroxide is not very dense in its unpressed form at all. Even when pressed, it must be pressed very well with a mechanical press to achieve good results. Also, what do you
think the explosive you set off were meant for? Moving land, trees, etc. 60% dynamite detonates at an average of about 5800 m/s, acetone peroxide detonates at 5300 m/s
at 1.18 g/cm. not much of a difference is there?
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited May 26, 2001).]
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
posted 05-26-2001 04:33 AM
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Im estimating about 300g in the coke can I blew up and it made a pretty nice boom but not as good as dynamite. Also when you load the holes you have to tamp the with a
wooden dowl to get a complete coupling in the hole to have zero oxogen balnce to have the best results. And the way you tamp them dynamite stick is you ram the rode in
the stick as hard as you can. Thats how safe the commercial stuff is and way more powerfull then the stuff we make. And about pressing the AP, the only way I press my AP is
wet it with acetone and press it into a .30-06 casing usually standing behind something. So I still have respect for this stuff but its just not as powerfull. Also compare this, lets
say you take 500g of ANFO and 500g of and put it in a casing and dig it in 1 foot of ground, ANFO will have more damage done than AP, but AP will sound more brissant as
where ANFO will have a low more deeper boom.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 05-26-2001 09:46 AM
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Personally I like the deeper sounding BOOM.
Demolition
CragHack
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Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-26-2001 12:22 PM
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so do i . But AP crackers produce a nice sharp stacato like a pistol shot. I think it is do to the higher brisance when you compare it to explosives that produce a lower boom.
Like anfo.
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Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
posted 05-26-2001 04:14 PM
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Teck; So from now on, you're never going to make AP or HMTD, and just stick to Nitro based explosives? Have you got the time, money and balls to do that?
I'm highly defensive of HMTD because it was the first high explosive I ever made and detonated (ah, I remember it well).
Look to my post on ANFO - I carried out a full detonation of it (only 100g!) using AP; no NG needed there!
Also, has anybody ever detonated ANFO above ground.. I've only ever done it underground, making a deep thud. With a DV of around 3400 m/s... it should'nt sound too deep
above ground.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 05-26-2001 08:20 PM
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Donutty, apparently a 1kg blast of ANFO above ground can be heard upto 7 miles away!
AP is more brisant than ANFO, but ANFO has greater gas volume evolution so will heave more soil around.
Also, a coke can is 330ml, 2/3 of that would be 220ml. To have 300gm of AP in there would require the AP to be at a density of 1.36gm/cc which is pretty high...
Commercial dynamite is subject to stringent safety checks to ensure high stability, all it could take in homemade dynamite is a bit of contamination to render it dangerously
sensitive. You cannot ram the primer cartridge though!
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
posted 05-26-2001 09:30 PM
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Donutty: Ill still make ap for blasting caps, but not for producing damage. Also my first HE was AP.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-26-2001 10:02 PM
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I like the sound of high pitched explosives ring out for a while. I mean like you make a small bomb that goes POW and then you make a much bigger one that goes
poooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I also like the sound of low pitched high explosives but not when you are close to them I am talking about being 150 yards from an
explosion and feeling the blast shake all your bones.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-26-2001 10:20 PM
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i think it is cool, when you make like an AP cracker and you stand 10 feet away from it when it goes off. (using something like cardboard for the casing) if you achieve true
detonation you won't be able to hear for a couple seconds. i think that is cool. I also am a fan of the shaking body. (i love cars with nice systems, with the bass cranked on the
amp.) that is why i am thinking about an ANFO charge for the 4th of july.
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-26-2001 10:33 PM
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standing next to an AP cracker (or any other explosive) while it is going off is a bad idea, that can cause tinnitus witch I have and it sucks, just one explosion too loud and that
eeeeeeeeeee sound could be the last you ever hear. (oh and BTW my tinnitus was not caused by loud sounds)
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 05-26-2001 11:02 PM
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Good call man. but if you think about it, if you actually achieve full detonation with an AP cracker, you really either need to:
A)have ear protection
B)be standing a long way away
the first one i can do, as my family is into the hunting and shooting at the local range and shit. But the second one is just to damn inefficient. i am not about ready to stand a
long ways off for a simple AP cracker. I don't want to where the ear protection either cause i would like listening to the fruits of my labor. i mean come one. if i was to make a
cracker capable of achieveing detonation. i would want to hear it. for the simple reason as to know that i actually did achieve detonation, AND that i like the loud noise
produced. I makes me feel good to know that i did that.
thanks for the work of warning though. Trust me, i will head it if i happen to make a fairly large "cracker" for the 4th.
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 05-26-2001 11:23 PM
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well, on the lower sounds you cannot protect yourself too well as the lower sound is unidirectional and will go through many objects but it is generally the moderate to hi
pitched sounds that do damage, if your ears ring for more than a min or it is very noticible you run the risk of havving cumilitive hearing damage effects, however if yo hear
nothing or muffled sounds you just gambled with your hearing, you can wear noise restricting (but not eliminating earmuffs or ear plugs, you can also get shooters earmuffs
that allow the sound to be electronicly turned down to a safe level, I use 25 DB rated foam earplugs, they let you hear plenty.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 05-29-2001 05:03 PM
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This is kinda related to all this talk of noise etc:
I went to a firing range once (using 5.56 mm L98-A's), and when not wearing ear protection the "CRACK!" when they fire is very penetrating even 20 yards or so away. But
when I fired one I had ear protection on, and I could still hear everyone speak almost normally so I was a bit worried they were faulty. However, when I fired the gun all I
heard was a "THUMP!", and no piercing high-pitches which damage hearing.
Teck: why the hell are you complaining about AP and HMTD not being as powerful as NG based explosives? Who ever said they are? They are completely different, and used
for completely different purposes. Anyone that uses HMTD in large amounts to "cause damage" is a fool.
In your first post you said, "I think ANNM will even do more damage to things than AP will." Of course it will. ANNM is a powerful, brisant high explosive, with a VoD that can be
around 7000 m/s (depending on % of NM).
And what are you talking about when you say that ramming explosives into a hole gives a zero oxygen balance? And that commercial stuff is way more powerful than the stuff
we make? If we make it to the specifications of the commercial stuff then it's power will be exactly the same.
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
posted 06-02-2001 02:48 AM
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They are for completely different purposes, what's the objective of comparing them?. Also, you are comparing it to the old mighty NG!. Then, why don't you compare your
"trimex" thing with RDX, HMX or hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane?.

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blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
posted 06-01-2001 05:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry that I haven't posted in a while, it's just that I have exam s, and I've been revising.
At m y school, in the design technology workshops, we have these m assive cupboards with tons of yum m y s o l v e n t s i n s i d e , a n d
while I was "working", I found tons of bottles of benzoyl peroxide, 5% concentration. I have seen other bottles of above 5%
concentration, but I wasn't interested in them . Am o n g o therr goodies, I found these fucking enourm o u s b o t t l e s o f a c e t o n e .
They must have like 10 gallons of acetone in them .
Anyway, on these bottles of acetone, around th e lids of the bottles, loads of crystals have form e d . T o n s o f t h e m ! th ey are all
clustered aro und the lids.
Is it AP?
Hm m, could other solvents in the cupb oard have m ixed with the acetone, and form e d s o m e other wierd peroxides?
By the way, what is a "peroxide reducer"? On the back of benzoyl peroxide bottles, it says "do not mix with peroxide-reducers"
or som ething like tha t.
All h elp is ap preciated, and I am sorry if this is a shit to pic.
[This message has been edited by bla ckadder (edited June 03, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-12-2001 03:07 AM
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If you would reduce the contain of peroxyde of your peroxyde you would mix it with a reducer indeed-stupid thing to do of
course with a drum of chemically pure or high concentrate peroxyde bought for a certain purpose (peroxydation, epoxydation.
polym er cata lyst,..)!U sually those redu cers are used in solvant when you don't want to blow yourself while distilling them !
Since a peroxyde is a strong oxydant, you m ight expect that a reducer will react with it to neutralise it...simple question of
good sense!

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PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-03-2001 02:17 AM
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After reviewing the archives I found an interesting thread started by Ctrl_c, the first m e s s a ge I will post here:
ok, i'm kinda new at this (this is my first year taking real chem) so bear with m e.
the 2 rxn's for the tri- and di- cycloacetonepero x i d e a r e
3 ( C 3 H 6 O ) + 3 ( H 2 O 2) => C9H18O 6 + 3H2O (tricycloacetone

peroxide)
and
2 ( C 3 H 6 O ) + 2 ( H 2 O 2) => C6H12O 4 + 2H2O (dicycloacetone

peroxide)
now to find the molar m ass (i'll only do for the tricyclo)
C 3 H 6 O ..........H2O2..........C9H18O 6
-----------....-----------...------------
C: 1 2.0 (3)....H: 1.0 (2)...C : 12.0 (9)
H: 1 .0 (6).....O: 16.0 (2)...H: 1.0 (18)
O: 16.0............................O: 16.0 (6)
-----------....-----------...------------
58 g/m ol.......34 g/m ol......22 2 g / m o l
H20
-----------
H: 1 .0 (2)
O: 16.0 (1)
-----------
18 g/m ol
now....
3(58) + 3(34) ==> 1(222) + 3(18)
so the amount needed by mass is
174g C3H6O + 102g H2O2 ==> 222g C9H18O6 + 54g H2O
is th is correct aside from the fact that it doesnt account for diluted H2O2?
this inform a t i o n h a s b e e n u s e ful to m e but now I want to know how to calculate the yeild in gram s by the liquid (ml)
m e a s u r e m ent of the ingredients. this involves som e m ath witch I am not good at. I think to figure this problem out we will
need the optim um mixture of acetone to h2o2
once found out we will know that a 100 % yeild will use a ll of the ingredients into making AP. this would be useful to see what
your yeild wa s in creating AP by using sim p l e a l g e b r a . c a n a n y o n e h e l p m e with any of the above steps for the trim m e r a n d t h e
dim m er? I want to do s o m e A P t e s t s a n d I n e e d t o h a v e a m ore accurate way of calculatin g m y yeild so I can make just
around the right amount of ap without wasting m y chem s a n d h a v i n g e x c e s s t h a t m a y g o w i t h o u t u s e a n d b e n e e d e d for
disposal.
T h a n k y o u a n y o n e t h a t c a n h e l p m e with this
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y P Y R O 500 (edited June 03, 2001).]
Ezikiel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 66
From : New Delhi, India
posted 06-03-2001 04:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Pyro500 !!!
I have no specific me thod of calculation but just a suggestion which is the following : After u filter out the AP do not dispose off
the solution, put it back in the freezer. In abou t a couple of days u'll see m ore AP in the solution. I have a lot of Acetone on
m y disposal as I don't buy it ...... I m ake it. I accidently cam e a cross a strain of probably Aspergillus which produces a m ixture
of Acetone and Butan ol when it acts on starchy material. And both of them are ea sy to seperate out by distillation. But the
m ain thing being leave the so lution for a while after u filter the AP out.
------------------
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-03-2001 06:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, but you still wont always get a 100% yeild. I know about filtering it and m ore form i n g d u e t o n o t h a v e i n g s o m uch in the
solution. Asp ergillus? the fungus? how much acetone do you get from a fungus culture? how do you keep the acetone from
evaporating without k illing the fungus in the cold. I do not curently have distillation equipment in my house although I want to
g e t s o m e when I can get some AN to make nitric acid. how did you isolate the strain of the fungus?
Ezikiel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 06-03-2001 11:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I a m not too sure that it is Aspergillus as I was trying to isolate Stachybo trys atra from an old cardboard bo x s o I h a d a d d e d i t
to a bottle full of rice and the supposed S.atra died out instead I got some fungu s which was white and had dark green fruiting
bodies. But anyways som eone is analysing it for me so I don't k now yet exactly what fungus it is. The setup I have here is that
I have big drums in which I put the starchy m aterials and these drum s are placed in the sun and there r tubes leading out of
t h e s e d r u m s i n t o s m aller drums placed underground un der perpetual shade which r not so far from the production drum s. And
tell m e how do u wash ur AP ....
------------------
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-03-2001 11:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how do I wash it? well after I filter it I spoon it into a new filter witch is usualy a coffie filter but in a hurry I have used a t shirt.
and I pour water over the ap and som etim e s I a d d a b a s e l i k e b a k i n g s o d a ( i ' v e b e e n e x p e r i m enting with other chems) and I
usually pour the wasted solution (after all AP is form ed) over wood ashes into the ground or I will pour it on a bonfire (same
place).
I u s u a l l y g e t a l o t o f p e r o x i d e e a c h t i m e I m ake it as I have a 30 % stuff. as for the bacte ria I thin k y o u h a v e
Clostridium acetobytilicium bacteria used in 1915-? to m ake butyl alcohol and acetone does it have citric acid in it though? I
a m thinking it is not a fungus but a bacteria. try doing a gram stain on it and seeing if it is gram positive o r negative then try
penicilin on it if it is p os. I think.
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-03-2001 11:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anyways back to the topic
Ezikiel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 06-04-2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h a n x f o r t h e i n f o a n d f o r m e N a H C O 3 w o r k s t h e b e s t . I m a k e a s a t u r a t e d s o l u t i o n a n d s h a k e t h e AP in it. I have saved
b a t c h e s o f u p t o 2 0 0 - 3 0 0 g m s f o r o v e r 4 m onth s without any cha nge in any of the properties @ about 40*C.
------------------
c0deblue
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 229
From :
posted 06-04-2001 03:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try this com puter for calculating reaction yields (and other usefu l calculations):
http://www.shef.ac.uk /chem istry/chem puter/reaction-yie lds.htm l
Mekap
New Mem ber
Posts: 37
From : Austra lia
posted 06-05-2001 03:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pyro ?
Sorry to change the subject, but I noticed you mention AN in the sythesis of Nitric acid. If so, what route do you take to make
Nitric acid?
I s t h e r e a n y a d v a n t a g e s o f t h i s m etho d, over distilling potassium nitrate with sulfuric acid?
[This message has been edited by Mekap (edited June 05, 2001).]
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-05-2001 06:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, it is sim ple to make nitric acid with any nitrate, just add oven dryed amm onium nitrate to ann ahydrus sulfuric acid and
distill, you should be able to get near 100% nitric acid provided without a vaccum e as long as there is no water in your stuff. I
only did this once with an old style retort and a bit of amm onium nitrate taken from school. now I am o u t a n d I d o n t h a v e a n y
nitric acid or am m onium nitrate to work with.
c o u l d a n y o n e h e l p m e find m ore, for e x a m p l e a b r a n d y o u h a v e purchased m abee a picture of the bag or num b e r s o n t h e b a g
beacuse I plan a trip to a agricultual supply sto re and need to know what to look for without looking suspicius
c0deblue
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 229
From :
posted 06-06-2001 03:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am monium Nitrate
34-0-0 (34% Total Nitrogen)
UN 1942
Ship ping Lab el: "Oxidizer 5.1"
D e m olition
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 158
From : Austra lia
posted 06-12-2001 07:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if this will help much but I got 9 grams of AP from 100m ls 6 % H 2 O 2 , 7 5 m l s A c e t o n e a n d 2 5 m ls HCl(left in the
fridge for 3 days).Next tim e I'll use 200m ls 6% H2O 2,150m ls Acetone,50mls HC l and see if there is a com parison in the
resu lts.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > acid concentration limit - Archive File
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young chemist
New Member
Posts: 5
From: appleton,wi
posted 06-07-2001 01:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if anyone knew the lower limit of acid concentration you can get away with to make ap... The forum I think says 30 percent but has anyone tried it with lower
concentrations and got it to work?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-07-2001 01:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You certainly don't need 30%, nearly any concentration will work although you may have to use more in order to have enough ions to catalyse the reaction.
Most people use around 30% HCl as this is the concentration is commonly comes in.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 06-08-2001 06:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I always use 10% HCL in my dreams works fine
(And i don't use more)
------------------
DarkAngel

musa
New Member
Posts: 2
From: USA
posted 06-12-2001 02:09 PM
I have been making my AP using 20% muriatic acid. Im not sure but I think muriatiac acid is just another name for HCl or are they different?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-12-2001 06:59 PM
One and the same.

What about Citric Acid? there seems to be very little information on the use of this supermarket acid. SWIM tried making ap with citric acid (150ml 6% HP + 50mls pure
acetone) there was a tiny bit of heat produced but no cystals the next morning (or afternoon, 20hours after first mixing) so SWIM then aded some (ALOT) more citric acid
crystals untill they had trouble dissolving and is awaiting further results

I just posted my results on the use of citric acid and acetic acid in AP production in The AP beginners Guide. Basically it does not work. (Only inorganic acids do). Has anyone
tried NaHSO4, commonly sold as dry acid for pools. It hydrolyses quite nicely for other uses and is alot stronger than acetic or citric acid.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP property's - Archive File
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ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-09-2001 08:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One day i started to become concerned about maiming my self with an AP device. So i thought "there must be a way to stabilize these things." Then I figured well this is a
crystalline heat sensitive peroxide thus (less heat = a more stable explosive) Right? So if I put the device (AP cracker) in a cooler with a zip lock around it to keep it dry, and
some salted ice (salt + ice makes ice colder) on top of it WOULD it become much less, if any less sensitive to its surroundings? There for it would become available for transport
in a safer manner. KEYWORD: safer. Would this cooling thing work? If yes what other property's could be used help to stabilize this device? EX: AP cracker cased in PVC with
caps glued on.
THANKS! INFO could be a lifesaver.
By the way the search found nothing.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
posted 06-10-2001 03:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know of only one way to help stabilize AP-thorough washing!.AP is heat sensitive,but is also very friction,shock sensitive as well,so I kinda doubt cooling would make much
difference.An easy way to test,though would be to throw or drop an AP cracker a particular distance or height until detonation occurs,then do the same with one you had stored
in the freezer.
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
posted 06-10-2001 04:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember thet was on the new year eve(that year). I dropped AP crackers(about 20-30 grams) from about 35 meters(my flat). No cracer went off when it fall on the
asphalt. The crackers were made taht day, they were closed in alluminium foil and were with fuses.
I read that it is possible to store AP forever if it is in fridge below zero degrees celsius(i don't remember the exact temperature below zero 0C)
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-10-2001 05:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP will not sublimate below a certain temp but I beleve weak hydrogen bonds can form at two low temps pulling the crystals together and making it more sensitive!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-10-2001 08:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The safest way to store or transport it would be in a solution in acetone, preferably cold.
mrloud
Frequent Poster
Posts: 53
From: Australia
posted 06-10-2001 09:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about transporting AP in water? OK, AP is insoluble in water, but it is extremely unlikely to detonate and water is not flammable or likely to dissolve a plastic container like
acetone.
[This message has been edited by mrloud (edited June 10, 2001).]
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 06-10-2001 11:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes water would work but in order to get the AP back you would have to filter the AP again and then wait for the water to evaporate. With acetone the evaporation would
happen quicker.
------------------
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-10-2001 05:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By putting AP in your cooler you are taking a huge risk. Just stop, and think what would happen to your beer is it detonated! It's just not worth the risk! Fingers grow back but
the beer would be gone for ever. For ever.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 06-10-2001 06:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol hahaha
whenever I transport my ap I always take it in a jar,and I add just enough acetone for all of the AP to dissolve. At the blast site I just take the lid off the jar and all of the
acetone soon evaporates. A little shaking from side to side helps.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
posted 06-10-2001 07:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If i dream about AP crackers/cap's i always pack them in alot toilet paper and putt it in a bag and carefully move it to the B-site.
What about mixing AP with a littly bit of oil,just enought to damp it a bit,
i think this will make it much more stable inside a cracker/cap
------------------
DarkAngel

ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-10-2001 09:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont realy c y chilling it wouldnt help. thats what they do to stabilize H2O2 in its higher consintrations for rocket launches. ya its propertys change when its mixed with other
compounds. but alot of them stay the same so i figured this property may happen to stay the same.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 06-10-2001 09:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think dissolving the AP in just enough acetone so as all the AP is dissolved and there is no excess acetone is going to be your best bet. And the acetone will easily evaporate.
------------------
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 06-11-2001 05:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When dissolving the AP in acetone & evaporateing the acetone afterwards, what kind of crystals do you get? I would expect larger crystals that are more sensitive...
------------------
kangaroooo.cjb.net
ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-11-2001 11:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for the suggetions. ill see what i can do.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 06-11-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wantsomfet, that is why we stir it will help avoid large crystals and help facilitate evaporation.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Can HMTD be a safe primary explosive? - Archive File
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HNIW
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From: Poland
posted 06-10-2001 04:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been preparing blasting caps that contains HMTD for about 4 months. I use Al pipes. To reduce the reaction between HMTD and Al, I usually mix HMTD with pure NC and
acetone. This mixture can be easily pressed and pressed explosive has higher detonation velocity. I've heard that HMTD can explode without any reasonable reason when one
uses copper or brass pipes for blasting caps. My oldest blasting caps have more then 2 months and they set off ANFO without any problems. I know that problems with HMTD
may occur when we mix it with powdered metal, but I would like to know if it can react with aluminium pipe. When I opened an old blasting cap containing HMTD I noticed that
the pipe walls were covered with Al2O3. So my question is: Is it safe to use HMTD as a compound for blasting caps?
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 06-10-2001 06:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMTD will react with aluminium, copper, brass, zinc, antimony, iron & lead, even when dry. Use AP for your detonators or cover the metal with some varnish!
Putting HMTD in Al pipes could result in an accident. (You where lucky that you used HMTD putty...)
------------------
kangaroooo.cjb.net
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-10-2001 08:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Line the inside of the pipe with varnish, or a layer of greaseproof paper. This should keep the HMTD and the Al seperate.
HMTD is a better choice than AP. I have had a bit of loose HMTD for years now, and I keep testing it to see how it is, and it still seems fine. There was even some interest in
HMTD for commercial detonators. I'll post the file up here if I still have it.
HNIW
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From: Poland
posted 06-10-2001 11:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with varnish is that I use acetone to make something like a glue from NC, then I add HMTD. This mixture I can easilly press, in addition NC cause it stronger and
pressing provides higher density.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 06-10-2001 12:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you should perhaps use another material for the detonator. I use glass tubes, thats perfect.
------------------
kangaroooo.cjb.net
a_bab
Frequent Poster
Posts: 44
From: doesn't matter
posted 06-10-2001 03:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is some post I found at rec.pyrotechnics about HMTD:
"From: billw@puli.cisco.com (William )

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Question on Chemical Compound
Date: 05 Oct 1996 03:08:37 GMT
In-reply-to: mikpits@ix.netcom.com's message of 3 Oct 1996 14:28:08 GMT
I've got a freind telling me of a compound made with Hexamine, Citric

Acid, and Hydrogen Peroxide. What is it and what are it's hazards?
Sounds like they mean Hexamethylenetriperoxidediamine, or HMTD. It's a

sensitive primary explosive. It deteriorates quickly over time, however.
The most serious unobvious hazard is that it is apparently made much more
sensitive when in contact with brass or copper. People try to make their
own blasting caps by pressing it into old rifle cartridges, with nasty
results. Here's an except from an old email on the subject:
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: HMDT
Date: 10 Mar 92 04:53:20 GMT
Organization: Tampere Univ. of Technology, Finland.
:
:
Well, I put a small piece of HMTD into a brick, and hitted it with a
hammer, and it didn't detonate. I also tried a 'spark-test' from a
lighter, and didn't managed to detonate HMTD. ( Indeed in ntp, and in
normal condition, HMTD wont detonate If you light it, It'll burn like
cellulose nitrate - with a yellow flame. Well, I was more than
Happy to see, That I'd found A PERFECT Primary-explosive to detonate
high-explosives.
Well At the July of 1989 It happened, I was damping HMTD into a .22
LR copper cartridge, with a standart match, you see holding that
cartridge in my left hand ,when it suddendly detonated, A HUGE explosion,
and I found that for some reason, my hand was bleeding abt 1/2 liter
of blood per min ( 1/9 gallon per min ) , and I could see my bone
'shining' through scraped human tissue.
Epiloque. Never NEVER load B-caps in your hand, Always use special
tamping device when loading Blasting caps - any other use for HMTD is
silly - Believe me, I had hitted HMTD with a Hammer, It didn't
detonate, and now, when I try to load that stuff from same batch into
a copper container, It detonates, even I press with maybe 1/2 kg
( = 1 pound ) force it.
Maybe the batch was impure, but believe me, It really explode
without no reason. I must say that HMTD is a good explosive, but It's
truly unpredictable. I'm sure that there are many others in this
newsgroup who can tell the same thing - months of hard handling, and
then, a explosion by a minumum force.
"
So, you were relly lucky not to blow off your hand...
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 06-10-2001 04:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just use hanger tube. Its cardboard. Or use aquarium tubing. Dont use glass or metal.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
posted 06-10-2001 04:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
assuming you are going to make a blasting cap the right way, and press the explosive into the container, you might not want to use glass. The glass container might not be
able to stand the pressure of tamping. And if it does, i bet it would be a poor material to use anyway. It is to brittle, there would be no pressure buildup, the glass would
shatter to quickly. I would suggest placing the primary explosive in a paper baggy then placing the baggy inside a metal tube. Don't use plastic bags, static electricity is not a
friend in this case.
------------------
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
posted 06-10-2001 06:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whenever my mum finishes using the rolls of Al foil (or even when she hasn't), I steal the cardboard tube on the inside of the foil which the foil wraps around. I then wrap this
tube with tons of electrical tape, and presto, I have a sweet container for some explosive. It won't react with shit, since it's cardboard.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
posted 06-10-2001 06:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't tamp the primary that strong. I don't apply very much pressure on it. OK, you'll get a better cap if you press it stronger, but i personally wouldn't use any mechanical
means like a loading press.
But if you use one, glass won't be good, that's true.
But from the chemical point of view its the best choice, you can be sure your primary doesn't react with the container.
And a thin walled commercial metal detonator tube stands no pressure buildup, too. But its not even necessary, the primary *detonates*, the container is only to hold it in
shape.
------------------
kangaroooo.cjb.net
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
posted 06-10-2001 10:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HNIW, if you don't want to use varnish in your tubes try using wax, it is not affected by acetone. Just melt some wax in a small can and dip your tube into and then let the
excess run out.
HMTD is an excellent primary explosive and quite easy to make, it seems to last in storage quite a bit longer than some people think.
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
posted 06-11-2001 12:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HNIW or anyone woule you be able to tell me the proportions for the acitone and nc to make the HMTD putty?
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
posted 06-11-2001 02:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Laboratories use a lot of kinds of plastic tubes, you can find them also on some plastic shops, you can also try cardboard tubing from pyro supplies.
HNIW
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From: Poland
posted 06-11-2001 05:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't use cardboard tubing, the answer is simple. If I use it HMTD won't detonate, there will be a noise of explosion but it will only be a fast burning. The results are also
simple, 2g won't set of ANFO. I know that unpressed 2g of HMTD detonate only in metal pipe. If I press it, it may detonate in glass pipe. I am pressing it using pencil, not a
hammer. What is more with NC it is much stronger then pure HMTD. I thing that roll of paper inside this pipe is the best solution. Now about this email, author used copper or
brass pipes and I'm using Al pipes. Now I have to destroy 25 blasting caps . To press HMTD I use 4% of NC that with acetone and HMTD create something like small balls, that
can be easily put and pressed in the pipe.
Thanks for suggestions !!
the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
posted 06-25-2001 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a sad story taken from rec.pyrotechnics, about a man who experimented with HMTD.
"Well, I put a small piece of HMTD into a brick, and hitted it with a hammer, and it didn't detonate. I also tried a 'spark-test' from a lighter, and didn't managed to detonate
HMTD. ( Indeed in ntp, and in
normal condition, HMTD wont detonate If you light it, It'll burn like cellulose nitrate -with a yellow flame. Well, I was more than
Happy to see, That I'd found A PERFECT Primary-explosive to detonate high-explosives. Well At the July of 1989 It happened, I was damping HMTD into a .22 LR copper
cartridge, with a standart match, you see holding that cartridge in my left hand ,when it suddendly detonated, A HUGE explosion, and I found that for some reason, my hand
was bleeding abt 1/2 liter of blood per min ( 1/9 gallon per min ) , and I could see my bone 'shining' through scraped human tissue."
Epiloque. Never NEVER load B-caps in your hand, Always use special tamping device when loading Blasting caps - any other use for HMTD is silly - Believe me, I had hitted
HMTD with a Hammer, It didn't detonate, and now, when I try to load that stuff from same batch into a copper container, It detonates, even I press with maybe 1/2 kg( = 1
pound ) force it. Maybe the batch was impure, but believe me, It really explode without no reason. I must say that HMTD is a good explosive, but It's truly unpredictable.
I'm sure that there are many others n this forum who can tell the same thing - months of hard handling, and then, a explosion by a minumum force. Play it safe guys!!!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > MF,HTMD and AP - Archive File
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Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 133
From:
posted 06-11-2001 03:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is safer and more effective?
I say : MF
higher DV
more cal/gram
more stable
can be made easier.
what you think?
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 06-11-2001 05:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i've not used MF but i find HMTD far better quality than AP. it seems less sensitve. it stores a hell of alot better than AP and it does seem to be more powerful.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-11-2001 06:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mercury fulminate is easier to make than AP or HMTD? You very sure about that?
Cipolla
New Member
Posts: 37
From:
posted 06-12-2001 02:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The main draw backs of HMTD are that it corrodes metals and that it stores bad. The senstitivity is comparable to MF and low er than TCAP. It is much stronger than MF and
stronger than TCAP. Lead block expansion of MF is anything about 150 (don't remeber exactly), TCAP 270 and HMTD 330. HMTD is also a better detonating compound than MF
and get's not dead pressed. By the way, MF is almost not in use anymore.
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 133
From:
posted 06-12-2001 02:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well for me its easier to make it! it takes less time ! less sensitive it doesnt go off by it self.
HMTD is not good with metalic caps right? MF is ok
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-12-2001 01:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HMTD is LESS sensitive than MF to impact and I believe friction and heat as w ell, but MF doesn't spontaneously detonate like HMTD can.
Yes, HMTD has the best performance, and is more stable than CTAP. And it doesn't give you brain damage, it costs a few pounds to make about 50 grams, it requires no special
precautions during manufacture (no conc. strong acids, no toxic fumes, no highly toxic corrosive w aste to deal w ith). It's easy to coat the inside of metal caps, or just use plastic
or paper (I use thin, but strong cardboard). The ONLY way in which MF is better than HMTD is that it never spontaneously detonates and it might be slightly more storage stable.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-12-2001 02:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP 5300m/s @ 1.18gm/cc
HMTD 5100m/s @ 1.10gm/cc
MF 5000m/s @ 4.00gm/cc
MF seems to be the poorest performer when it comes to VoD.
MF requires conc. HNO3 and mercury, not exactly chemicals that are widely available, nor at all cheap. Messing w ith mercury is also going to give you funny looking kids.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
posted 06-12-2001 05:00 PM
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But remember that the purpose of the primer is simply to detonate the base charge, so DV and lead block expansion is less important than the right mix of the following
characteristics: Sensitivity ( low friction/impact sens. high flame sens. ),
stability in storage at various temperatures,
ability to go from deflagration to detonation, low reactivity, high predictability, and of course initiating performance ( which is not directly related to DV or lead block expansion ).
In the end, all of these primaries are capable of detonating the usual base loads
( of w hich nitromannitol may be the most interesting due to the ease of manufacture ),
and so we must consider the other factors instead.
HMTD alone w ill not reliably undergo DTD if pressed hard ( w hich I think is neccessary to give reasonable stability ).
AP decomposes too fast for storage stability ( confining it in an airtight casing tends to make it prone to spontaneous decomposition ).
MF has its shortcomings too, but none of them are as disastrous as those of the other tw o.
Ultimately I w ould think about which type of detonator I would rather carry in my pocket, and the fact that MF was used commercially for years settles the matter in my
opinion.
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 133
From:
posted 06-13-2001 02:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you Microtek,
BTW MF doesnt neet conc nitric acid
5g Mercury
35 70% NA
50 96% Ethyl
Let the Mercury disolve in the NA it take about 30m but be sure that it disolved w ell, dont inhale the fumes.
Add the disolved mercury (nitrated) to the Ethyl wait about 10min alot of fumes like a cloud then you have your MF.
wash it then add some Ammonia w ater to it. if you want to use it you have to let it dry if not put it underwater and thats it.
i know AP and HMTD sometimes detonates w ith no reason!!! but MF never had. Thas why i think its better.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-13-2001 06:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It might w ork with NH4NO3/H2SO4 mix, if only low conc HNO3 is required... Although mercury hardly grows on trees around here.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 06-13-2001 09:06 PM
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Kinda sophies choice hear.
MF is not something to cary in your pocket! You drop one of those caps, and youll be missing our foot!
HMTD reacts disaterously w ith metals. It w ill also go off in direct sunlight.
AP has an experation date that makes eggs look like the food to stock the w ar room with. I read though that if you wash the AP with baking soda it lasts longer.
Take your pick.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-13-2001 10:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The w ay people complain it sounds like AP vapouises faster than ethanol! I always keep AP in shall open containers (for safety's sake) and haven't looked at it a week later and
thought "it's half gone!" It's hardly death valley round here but it's got to be 20*C. For me volitarisation is not a con for AP, that would be it's touchyness.
What about the recently discussed ONS for initiation ability and suitability?
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 133
From:
posted 06-14-2001 02:27 AM
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What w e all guys posted assure that MF is better than AP and HMTD at least because its safer and stay longer.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-14-2001 03:29 AM
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Anthony: never NH4NO3/H2SO4 will w ork to make Mercury fulminate simply because HgSO4 is fairly unsoluble and w ill precipitate any Hg(2+) preseny in solution!
CTAP is stable especially if wet; and volatility can be diminished in a closed container (w ith the cap just deposed on top-not screwed or pressed...due to vapor pressure the main
of the CTAP will remain there (in that nearly closed system)recristallising itself: no risks of explosion since wet and no screw cap to take away-just lift up the lid)
------------------
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
posted 06-14-2001 04:44 AM
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Anthony: What is the ONS You refer to?
It isn't octonitrosucrose is it?
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 06-14-2001 05:18 AM
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If my AP was dry on monday night,will it be still ok to use to try and set off some HTH and naphtha explosive if it has been washed thoroughly with Baking Soda and water,it
has been stored in an airtight plastic jar and has been kept in a dark cool place for the past 4 days???(hoping to use it on Sunday,approximately 9 grams).
Also the temperature here hasn't risen past 20 degrees for the last week.
I'm believe it w ill still be ok to use,just wanted professional advice and some first hand experience.
Demolition
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 133
From:
posted 06-14-2001 07:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PHILOU I w ould like to know your opinion about the subject w e are discussing?
Another thing, how much MF to set off lets say 10kg of ANFO?
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 06-14-2001 08:50 AM
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demolition, your AP should be ok. i've stored it for 2 weeks and its still worked. its w hen you get to the scale of a month or two that you will notice some of it missing. well at
least in my experience. my AP wasn't that satble either as i didn't wash it in baking soda.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-14-2001 09:47 AM
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A no8 blasting cap is equivalent to a 2.0g MF...so with a density of 4 that makes 0.5ccm!!
No doubt 4g will do the job if wel inserted in a strong metal container like copper pipe 0.6cm inner diameter (with 4g you should have a lenght of about 3.7-4cm full of MF!
------------------
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-14-2001 11:06 AM
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Mark: your HMTD goes off in sunlight? Either you live somew here on Mercury or it's impure. Well washed, neutralised HMTD won't unless it's a VERY VERY hot day!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-14-2001 11:09 AM
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My favourite primary is DDNP. It's quite a lot more effort, but all the ingredients are common, and it's stable and pow erful. And according to my Encarta encyclopaedia it's found
in many modern commercial and military blasting caps, so it must be reliable.
Although my garden centre seems to have stopped selling sodium nitrite now, which is a problem.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-14-2001 12:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He Mr Cool, just an idea passing by...
By bubbling NOx trough a solution of w ater you get HNO3 and HNO2!
By neutralising this with a base like NaOH or Na2CO3 you get NaNO3 and NaNO2!
So basically:
1)
Cu + HNO3 + little heat to start --> Cu(NO3)2 + NOx (NO + NO2 + N2O3 + N2O4)
1')or via solid paraformaldehyde!

(CH2-O-)n + HNO3 --> H2O + CO2 + HCO2H + NOx
2)
NO + 1/2O2--> NO2
NO + NO2 --> N2O3
N2O3 + H2O --> 2 HONO
3)
HONO + NaOH --> NaONO + H2O
2HONO + Na2CO3 --> 2NaONO + H2O + CO2
4)
NaNO3 + NaNO2 + HCl --> HONO + NaCl +(very little bit HONO2)
Conclusion:
No problemo amigo!
------------------
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-14-2001 02:41 PM
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Well, I'd rather not have to use up valuable HNO3, but if I can't find another source I might have to, so thanks!
Reducing my KNO3 w ould be better, since I've got about 40 lb of that lying around.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-14-2001 04:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well no MF via NH4NO3/H2SO4 then!
ONS is indeed Octonitrosucrose
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
posted 06-14-2001 07:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Cool, it wasnt my HMTD. It was on XINVENTIONS. His HMTD w as drying in the sun and it went off. Theres this giant hole in his desk.
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 06-14-2001 09:12 PM
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Anyone ever try using Lead Styphnate or Picrate or even Cu2C2. Those r a few of my favourite primary explosives. I don't know about u guys but I can make them quite easily
and they w ork great. And even a mixture of Pb(SCN)2 and KClO3 works great (keep playing with propotions). Let me know what u think.
------------------
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 06-15-2001 09:31 AM
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They are dozens of primaries even more, you just have to find them in old chem books!
------------------
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
posted 06-15-2001 02:43 PM
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I store an AP washed with sodium bicarbonate in a glass container full with water then sealed with plastic and the lid is screw ed....so f...ar....so...goo...d
it's been nearly a year now, I bury it about 3 inch underground........w ell, this is totally silly but I havent got the chance to trash it right away....well, anyone has ever do things
like this? Hazards?
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
posted 06-16-2001 05:41 AM
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On the subject of nitrite via the lead reduction route, how do you isolate the (potassium)nitrite from the PbO and left-over (K)NO3?
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-16-2001 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You mix it with water. The lead oxide won't dissolve, the other two (KNO3 and KNO2) w ill, so you can filter it to get out lead compounds and unreacted lead. A bit of KNO3 left
in doesn't really matter, so just heat it with the lead until you think it's all mostly gone. or find the solubilities and try fractional crystalisation. I think the nitrite will crystalise
first...
I'm not sure how well this method works w ith KNO3 though. I've heard it does w ith NaNO3 but that KNO3 decomposes releasing NO2.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
posted 06-16-2001 07:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What sort of temperature are you supposed to heat to? Melting point?
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
posted 06-17-2001 05:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FEMFEP says to use either KNO3 or NaNO3, to put about 4 grams of KNO3 and 12 grams of lead in some fireproof container and heat it in hot coals or with a blowtorch for 30 to
60 minutes.
Then it says to chip out the resulting yellow material and put it in methanol.
Heat the alcohol until a 'visible' reaction takes place, then filter to separate the PbO (crystals) from the KNO2 (dissolved).
My encyclopedia ( from 1940 ) says to use the same procedure, but to use water instead of methanol.
The_Rsert October 8th, 2004, 11:21 AM

Has MF realy only 150ml lead block expansion?
Has someone tried to mix MF with MHN or maltose octanitrate?
Next time I will make MF but before I have to make pure Hg by destilling of HgO.
I have about 25g of MHN at the time. I w ill test the mix MFMHN soon...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP swimming at top of water ? - Archive File
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no_name_available
New Member
Posts: 25
From: germany (?)
posted 06-22-2001 07:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi,
should fresh made and washed Aceton Peroxid swim on the top ?
i made it with 30.8% H2O2, pure aceton and some HCl. the reaction was at non-ideal 37C, i let it stand overnight - and form bottom to top it was full with these nice white
cristals. i neutralized the mixture with more NaOH solution than necessary and then washed it until the ph was 8.
now the AP swims on the top of the ph 8 water. is this normal or says it something about my AP formula, whether it is DCAP or TCAP ?
Thanks for all replies

-nna-
ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-22-2001 02:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sorry itt doesnt anwser your ? but you brought up a ? id like to get anwsered.
i used 3% H2O2 for my ap.
my question is what % of the total volume of the final solution should be crystals.
when i first put it in the fridge it made a little then the next day it doubbled then it made a litle more and finaly stop foring crystals. i dont even have 1/15 of the total solutions
volume worth of crystals. is that all ill get?
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
posted 06-22-2001 02:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there're always floating crystals and the sinking one, that doesn't matter or determine which is which (all the same)
I speculate the crystal forming process got some to do with cohesion and hence, leaving some floating
a_bab
Frequent Poster
Posts: 44
From: doesn't matter
posted 06-22-2001 03:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the AP crystals float because of their slow decomposition (if you look at the floating crystals, you'll notice some small gas bubbles, glued to crystals).
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 06-22-2001 05:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the crystals you have should be the dimer form because of the high temperature you they formed at. i think the crystals float because they formed on the surface like they
formed on all the container surfaces below the solution level. the surface of the solution is like anyother surface except it is extremely thin. i think thats right
ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-23-2001 08:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
some ap will float to the surface when exposed to loght. i found this out yesterday. i opend the frige and the light poped on , i got the ap and stuff was floating to the top. and
i though why isnt it all at the top since it was moving rather fast. so i thought might be the heat from my hand OR it might be the light. when i stopped the direct light from
toughing the glass with my hand the ap stopped rising then sank back to the bottom. It was kinda cool to mess around with then i got board and put it back in. that might be
why some of your ap floats, to much light.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
posted 06-23-2001 02:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I have made AP at night and I have not experienced that effect, H2O2 is sensitive to light but it usualy is stabilized, that sounds like a strange thing happening, where do
you get your H2O2 from and does it have a list of stabilizers on it, this sounds unusual though, are you sure you arent bumping the jar with your hand? sometimes when I
make ap it collects on the sides near or on the top. then if I make any vibration what so ever, the crystals fall slowly to the bottom just rule out everything first, maybee you
touched the side if the jar?
ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
posted 06-23-2001 10:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THats what i thought bout then i tried slowly opening the fidge(when i said i was messing around with it) as not to shake the glass. they did the same thing. i used 3% not 30.
and when i blocked the direct light they stopped and began to sink but as soon as i showed them the light they rose agian. Oh well it doesnt realy matter cause the ap worked
great today. my first time ever using it too. did 2 .380 with live primer still in. just for that little extra kick. i have picks but they need development so till then look forward to
seeing brass shards emmbedded into my docks 4x2's.
no_name_available
New Member
Posts: 25
From: germany (?)
posted 06-26-2001 11:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the H2O2 contains the stabalizing agent phosphoric acid, i buyed it [the H2O2] at pharmacy.
and no, i didnt touched the container.
[This message has been edited by no_name_available (edited June 26, 2001).]
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 06-26-2001 04:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anti-system, i hope your getting the pics developed by a friend or your doing it yourself because the developer place could get suspicious and call the pigs.
i can't wait to see the pics.

Well, when I make HMTD the same thing happens, because loads of little bubbles form in the H2O2 that carry the HMTD up to the surface, where it forms a foam. I havn't
noticed this in AP making though.
Anyway, floating explosive or not, it has always worked alright for me in it's applications.
Nevermore July 15th, 2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Sonny Jim
I havn't noticed this in AP making though.
Anyway, floating explosive or not, it has always worked alright for me in it's applications.
Well it happened a few times to me, finding all the AP floating over the water and just a little bit down to the bottom, i think is because H2O2 decomposition too, since the Ap
looked foamy, anyway worked pretty fine at me, althought i found much bigger cristals than usual.
Horrigan April 22nd, 2007, 08:58 AM

On a french serious document about energetic materials, I read that DPPP was floating whereas TCAP and DCAP were sinking, these properties were used to separate DPPP
(which is suspected to have a VoD of 10km/s at high density) from TCAP and DCAP, doing that by dissolving AP in methanol, then adding enough water to make it precipitate,
DPPP floats, others sink.
knowledgehungry May 15th, 2007, 11:53 PM

Would you mind sourcing that document?
Chopper May 16th, 2007, 08:42 AM

Yes, Horrigan. I would be most interested in reading that document too.
Previous experience and research tells me that dimeric AP has a density of less than 1 and trimeric of greater than 1. After making AP, you'll be left with a precipitate on the
bottom of the reaction vessel and another floating on the top.
Washing, drying and then re-wetting results in the same proportion of each. (The process is designed to eliminate any bubbles that add to the buoyancy of the precipitate that
floats) Similarly indicative, is the fact that the two precipitates burn differently. I forget which was which, but one of the two produces a small but noticeable cloud of black
smoke upon ignition. The other just a voluminous flame, but no noticeable smoke.
Horrigan May 20th, 2007, 07:28 AM

Here is it: http://www.nuclearcleansing.com/perso/TEP_ME.pdf (this document is French)
Here are the most interesting parts about DPPP, translated:
Diphoronepentaperoxyde (C18H26O12), DPPP, according to its creator, it would have a VoD of 10km/s, that's quite astonishing beacause DPP density is <1.
According to tests, DPPP seems less sensitive than AP.
Heated (I think the author means melted) DPPP explodes violently whereas
TCAP just burns.
A separation method to get pure DPPP had te be done, but TCAP-DCAP and DPPP have the same solubilities in every common solvents.
Solvant-extraction is then impossible, so we'll try density separation:

We prepare a saturated solution of AP-DPPP in methanol
Then we add wated (2x methanol volume), AP and DPPP precipitate immediately, one sink, the other float.
Using Sulfuric acid, it will make DCAP and TCAP, nothing floats, using SnCl2 or SnCl4, it will make TeCAP, nothing floats, so DPPP NEED HCl to be prepared.
Properties:
Name : TeCAP
Formula : C12H24O8
M = 296.2 g/mol
O% = -151.22%
Gaz Volume = 0.908 l/g
Energy = 4373 J/g
Explosive Power = 3970 (147% of Picric Acid)
Temperature = 3638 Kelvin
VOD = 5220 m/s
Products : 12.00 C + 4.00 H2 + 8.00 H2O
Name : DPPP
Formula : C18H26O12
M = 434.2 g/mol
O% = -136.32%
Gaz Volume = 0.671 l/g
Energy = 4355 J/g
Explosive Power = 2922 (108% of Picric Acid)
Temperature = 4174 Kelvin
VOD = 4807 m/s
Products : 18.00 C + 1.00 H2 + 12.00 H2O
So we see that for same densities, TeCAP is more powerful than DPPP.
However, some people say that DPPP can be compressed to reach higher densitites and VoD of about 10 km/s !
I tried melting about 0,05g DPPP on a metal plate, when it exploded, it sounded like a detonation, my ears were buzzed for a few minutes...
knowledgehungry May 20th, 2007, 09:29 AM

While the more reasonable VOD and other properties of DPPP lend support to the validity of this research, I am still skeptical. Many people have attempted a DPPP synth and
never have conclusively obtained the desired goal. They have even tested the products with IR Spec.
I don't understand what they mean by "explosive power". Not only that I don't know how they have figured that bot TeCAP and DPPP have more of it than Picric acid. Picric
acid has a higher VOD and more gas generated than either of them.
Horrigan May 20th, 2007, 04:20 PM

It seems weird to me, too. But the thing is that when I make AP, it's always DPPP, it's the easier to make, just mix acetone, H2O2 at ambiant temparature, and then, add
slowly HCl until DPPP precipitates, add more to make the reaction faster, but it must not runaway, else you'll get chloroacetone, a tear gaz.
I always have great yelds with this method.
Cindor May 21st, 2007, 01:02 PM

I always have great yelds with this method.
I think that you are getting great yields of the dimeric form of AP with this method...
Charles Owlen Picket May 22nd, 2007, 11:21 AM

While the more reasonable VOD and other properties of DPPP lend support to the validity of this research, I am still skeptical.
I've been following this thread and still wonder; does this material pass muster? Is this factual? As per what I have read DPPP has not successfully been isolated from
TCAP....samples declared to be DPPP have no variance from TCAP.....:confused:
Rbick May 22nd, 2007, 02:35 PM

I'm with you on that one Charles, I'm not sure what to believe. I've read threads on madscience and many here on rogue, and everyone seems to have a different take on it.
It may be real, but I'm very doubtful of a 10km/s VoD with an organic peroxide, especially with such a low density. Maybe in text book conditions or in theory it would work?
If you havn't read the patent, you may want to look there. It lacks important information such as temperatures for the procedure, which leads me to believe it's BS :mad: But I
have yet to hear of any success in making DPPP with such a high VoD, just people saying they've come close or they weren't sure. Personally, I've discarded most of it as
misinformation.
Billy Bones July 5th, 2007, 02:54 PM

Hmm, the floating on the top AP is pure dimer, because of the density the trimer always sink to the bottom and dimer float on the top. This make separation very simple, just
test the two layers and you see that this on the top is little more sensitive.
How to make more trimer cool the mixture and materials and use weak acid (I prefer HC L) .
To Chopper,yes the trimer makes small black cloud of smoke and much sharp crack, which is another prove that trimer form is more powerful then dimer.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > peroxides and metals? - Archive File
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y o u n g c h e m ist
New Mem ber
Posts: 5
From : appleton,wi
posted 06-25-2001 01:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I k n o w t h e r e h a s b e e n d i s c u s s i o n s o n t h i s b e f o re and I know that HMTD is definetly not compatable with any m etals use straws
to keep contact with metal when making caps. But I heard that AP is com patable with m etals like copper alum inum , a n d b r a s s
is th is true? (Or should I use straws to prevent contact also and if so wou ld AP eat the plastic because of the acetone.)
y o u n g c h e m ist
New Mem ber
Posts: 5
From : appleton,wi
posted 06-25-2001 02:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never m ind I think I found the answer I was looking for. But feel free to reply if you have anything to add.
FadeToBlackened
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 201
From : Hell
posted 06-25-2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think there should be any aceto ne in the AP if yo u washed it well.
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 232
posted 06-25-2001 03:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D o n t y o u m e an acid? Acetone gets along fine with m eta ls, its the acid catalyst that attacks the metals and corrodes them .
try bicarbona te neutralization.
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-25-2001 04:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H e s a i d t h e a c e t o n e m ight attack the plastic straw.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 06-25-2001 06:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a s s u m bing that any free acetone would come out at the washing stage?
AP *should* be ok with metals but it's worth taking preventative m easurees like straws, coating with varnish etc juts in case.
A goopy straw is better than an accidential detonation!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD in Al pipes - Archive File
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HNIW
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Posts: 46
From : P o l a n d
posted 06-26-2001 12:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I covered the walls of the pipes with varnish and on this a simple paper. I use HMTD m ixe d with NC, is it su re that HMTD won't
react with paper?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 06-26-2001 01:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
no it shouldnt. R EC LY CLED paper can contain sulfur but i dont know how hm td rea cts with S.
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited June 26, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
posted 06-26-2001 07:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I t h i n k s o m e kinds of paper (cheap, recycled) contain traces of acid from the bleaching process. But it shouldn't be a problem ,
you could neutralise the paper in a sodium bicarbonate solution if it both ered you.

Very good technique(in m y op inion) for separating HMTD and Al tubes is:
1) Heat wax to point where it is very th i n a n d p o u r a b l e
2) U sing tweeuers, quickly soak piece of paper in wax and roll it ni the tu b e
3) Because the wax is very hot, it harden in the tube, not during form ing
4) W hen it cools, you should have Al tube with tight fitting insulation waxed paper with sealed seam.
This paper should be unreactive with HMTD besauce it is thoroughly soak ed with wax.
I used this techniqu and it performed good.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Cloudy HMTD solution - Archive File
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Tony Montana
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Posts: 143
From: Australia
posted 06-27-2001 04:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if anyone can help, I have made HMTD a few times before. But, this time I used a cheap citric acid that cost about 1 dollar for half a kilo, anyway. I dissolved
the required amount of Hexamine, without a hitch like always, within minutes the hexamine was gone leaving a crystal clear solution. Then adding the citric acid made the
solution alot more cloudy than normal. I mean cloudy appearance with dust looking floating particles. Its obviously some impurities in the citric acid, will this affect my reaction?
Is there a known way of purifying citric acid??After P.S. I have just mixed it so, if anyone is interested I will tell you how precipitation goes, from this cloudy mix!
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 143
From: Australia
posted 06-27-2001 10:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well into the reaction now, the HMTD solution now has a quarter of an inch of froth like the head of a beer and also looks like its carbonated(bubbles up the side of the jar).
And precipitation is alot slower than usual?
I used 6% peroxide and cheap citric acid, both of which I have never used before and the reaction is not following its normal route. Has any similar things happened to any of
you???????
Am I just paranoid??????
P.S.The sooner you reply the better, check the time of my first post, thats 5 minutes after reaction started. Hence, wont need help 12 hours from the time of origanal post.
As I will have finished sythesis, and will be busy testing(now im bored as fuck waiting for it)!!!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited June 27, 2001).]
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 06-27-2001 05:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i could be too late here but when using 6% peroxide it takes a couple of days for all the crystals to precipitate. also i wouldn't store the HMTD for very long because of the
impurities but if you leave the HMTD under running water for a couple of hours you might be able to remove almost all contaminants.
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 143
From: Australia
posted 06-27-2001 06:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, perfect timing, you actually ended up saving the day!(Fuck,I didnt think using slightly different ingredients would effect the reaction this badly)Q:Kingspaz: do you think it
is wise filtering(approx:12 hours into reaction) as there would be at least a gram so far, then returning the filtrate to reaction vessel, to complete precipitation?
Is this 1/4 inch foamy head a usual occurance with 6% peroxide?
Do you refridgerate, precipitating HMTD solution?
Do you roughly know how much precipitate forms, during the 2nd day of precipitation, I mean, I am sure that it does, but my synthesis states 6% peroxide, and complete
precipitation takes place within 8-24 hours.
What I am trying to say is, is from your experience with 6% peroxide, is it worth waiting, are decent amounts of crystal formed on day 2?????
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 06-27-2001 08:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When i make HMTD i add the hexamine and if i listen closely i can hear it bubbeling like soda. Seems it gets carbonated when the hexamine is added. When all hcl addidion is
done (i use hcl), there is a immediate formation of a very thick foam all throughout the mixture. When filtered, the HMTD foam seems to condense in crystals. I use 35% H202
and 28% HCL. the hexamine i got when i bought 2 portable cooker stoves for 12 dollars. I just wanted then to be able to make meals when im camping etc, but when i
opened up the packages, there was about 300 grams of hexamine between both of them.
------------------
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Explosives Archive
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 143
From: Australia
posted 06-27-2001 08:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The KING: was right! About 16 hours, now. And can visibly see the precipitation occuring, which would indicate to me that it is far from finished...
And looking at it now, I dont think it would be wise to filter until complete precipitation has occured. I asked if you refridgerated your HMTD, because I did not and thought that
maybe you did, which would account for, what I saw as a the precipitation taking a day to long!!!!
But I was wrong, and looking now, its looking like if left for 2 days as you said. It will nearly double the amount of crystal I will yeild! Thank you again!
You saved half my precious HMTD, and for that im gratefull.
Q: By the way what sythesis are you using, I dont want the whole fucking thing. Just the book its out of?
I used the improvised munitions black book, which turned out to be fairly accurate, but lacking vital information, as you can probably see!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 143
From: Australia
posted 06-27-2001 09:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALENGOSVIG1: You mention using HCl (hydrochloric acid) in place of C6H8O7 (citric acid). Are there any advantages from using this method(faster precipitation, larger yields,
etc)????
Also I would think HCl would generate more heat than C6H8O7, do you have to refrigerate precipitating solution, or am I just wrong about that one?
Your input would be appreciated alot!
Before I was safety first, explosives second. I used to do some stupid stuff, the first time I made HMTD, the bubbling/small crackling sound the reaction creates, that you just
brought up, was an experience for me. Anyway, I was in my bedroom with a couple of friends, stirring a jar of reacting HMTD on my lap, and that fucking noise started. I
thought OHHHH FUCK its about to explode. Anyway that pissy little noise, thats pretty novel nowadays, brought me the closest I have ever come to actually shitting in my
pants!
It may sound weak, but you cant judge until you seriously think you are about to get an instant castration!!!!
I made an oath to god second after the scare I promised, that I would never be so reckless again and, that I would serve him for the rest of my life, for letting me keep my
testicles.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted 06-27-2001 10:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont know if there is any advantages to using HCL in place of C6H8O7 except that HCL is much cheaper. There is more heat in the reaction so the reaction vessel must be
placed in an ice bath and the hcl added in 5 ml portions. i dont think that it would heat up the solution too much if you were using 6% H202 but im using 35% which causes
more heat to be generated. I suppose the HMTD must be washed more thoroughly when using HCL but i always wash any non water soluble precipitate with alot of H20 and
H20 NaHCO3 solution
------------------
Explosives Archive
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 143
From: Australia
posted 06-27-2001 11:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, with 6%H2O2, virtually no heat was produced, need for an ice bath literally came down to personal choice(and habit). I chose to apply ice bath during reaction and let it
precipitate at room temp. I easily cooled the solution to 5 to 6 degrees celsius, and it did not try to climb back up. In my position at the moment, C6H8O7 is actually easier to
acquire and cheaper. As theres a health food shop nearby (which hippies own) stocks heaps and practically throw it away, if HCl preformed better, I would not hesitate.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
posted 06-28-2001 06:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use HCl, and extract the NH4Cl byproduct to use in smoke bombs.
Apart from that I don't think it's any better.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
posted 06-28-2001 08:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony, the method i use is as follows:
30ml of powdered hexamine is added to 200ml 6%peroxide solution. i stir this for 5 minutes then leave it to sit for a further 15. then i add 50ml H2SO4 from a car battery.
then i stir some more and leave the solution in the fridge for a couple of days. i'm not sure the proportions are optimal but thats what i use. i think the reason precipitation
takes longer with 6% peroxide is because there is 94%water in it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Potassium Chlorate Explosives - Archive File
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Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
posted 12-15-2000 09:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got about a pound of potassium chlorate that I got for dirt cheap. I've kinda been dicking around with it, doing this and that. I've read that you can use the stuff as an
explosive, but how? It's an oxidizer, so I could just mix it with a fuel like sugar, right? Would a fuse light that, or do I have to get fancy and waste my blasting caps?
------------------
The A Files
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
posted 12-15-2000 11:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are several different KCLO3 explosives (KCLO3/AN,KCLO3/kerosene,KCLO3/vaseline etc.).To the best of my knowledge,they all need to be shot with a cap.Also,they
must be confined for a detonation to occur.
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Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 120
From: Petersburg
posted 12-16-2000 09:46 PM
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Where did you Get the KCLO3?
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 202
From: Germany
posted 12-16-2000 10:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good and interesting thing it is to mix it with red phosphorus.
But at first the safety rules!
When you mix chlorate and phosphorus use only REALLY SMAL AMOUNTS like a matchhead.
NEVER MORE!
When you want to use more you MUST do this from far away.
The stuff is absolute incalculable and it can go off when the wind blows.
When I was 14, I put 3 spoons of ground chlorate and 1 spoon of phosphorus in an empty hanged up camping gas cartridge. Each on a side of the cartridge without contact the
other.
Then I shaked it with a long fishingline ("remote control" ) and let it crash against a wall. I took 2 or 3 minutes befor it went of.
If you do so, take cover. The cartridge will be like shrapnel.
[This message has been edited by Jumala (edited December 16, 2000).]
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 202
From: Germany
posted 12-16-2000 10:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have forgotten something,
you can also mix it wet (with alcohol) This is save when it is wet. But when it dryes the recristallisation process can set it of.
It happens to me many years ago.
So I think the only save possibility to use the mix is from far away.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 457
posted 12-16-2000 10:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a low explosive (eek, wrong forum), one would just have to mix it with a fuel like FINE (250 or more mesh) powdered aluminium (2:1). This requires only a fuse to set it
off and it one of the most powerful low explosives around, hence the name, "flash powder". There are many other low explosives you can make with it, but considering this is
the high explosives forum, I will move on...
A weak plastic explosive man be made by mixing 9 parts chlorate to 1 part vaseline. This is less powerful than ANFO, but more than some very low grade dynamites. You could
add some powdered ammonium nitrate to the mixture, which would make it HEAPS more powerful, but you risk the formation of a highly dangerous salt, ammonium chlorate.
This plastic explosive can be detonated with a blasting cap or electric charge.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 457
posted 12-16-2000 11:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, I really like your "A Files" cookbook. It's almost as large as my "Book of Mayhem"! And it has just as many purdy pictures! Very impressive. It has a nice professional
touch too. You've inspired me to rewrite "BoM" (BoM, get it, as in "bomb"? Ok, it was a bad pun, hehe). I'm almost finished revamping chapter two (Explosives), and there's
gonna be around five or six chapters.
Keep up the good work!
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 706
From:
posted 12-17-2000 04:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chlorates by themselves detonate, but, total detonation, I'm sure, isnt possible.
Loading Density improves the plastique mentioned performance (1.3g/cc).
Read "Kitchen Improvised Plastic Explosives" its a good read about Chlorate explosives.
Pretty much every mix with Chlorates is detonatable, some detonate spontaniously, some if you breath on um, and some take a stick of 60% dynamite to detonate.
The IMH has a few Chlorate explosives, but it doesnt mention the density because its meant as a filler for military grade expolsives.
Chlorate/Sucrose, is sensitive to detonation and should be handled with care, its also friction sensitive.
It creates reeeal high pressures, but, slowly, so it requires heavy confinement.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
posted 12-17-2000 10:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That potassium chlorate and vaseline thing works? I thought that was more Exodus bullshit. An electric charge, you say? What kind of amperage you you have to run through
it?
------------------
The A Files
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 457
posted 12-17-2000 10:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure, I never tested it with an electric charge detonator before. I just used my simple AP plastique detonators. I'm guessing a fairly large current...
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1013
posted 01-08-2001 02:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try mixing KClO3 with the same fuel mixture used in BP, in about a 3:4 ratio (sorry, but that's by volume. I couldn't be bothered to weigh it). Add a few % of potassium
carbonate to neutralise any acid (makes the chlorate/sulphur mix a bit safer, but not much so be careful!), and then finish it by making a dough-like stuff by adding water, dry
it and break it into little grains. It's much better than home made BP and can be set off with a detonator or fuse. It's more powerful with a det. because all the energy is
released quicker because it's set off by the shock wave travelling through it, which is fast, rather than the spread of the flame, which is comparatively slow.
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
posted 07-08-2001 04:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People !! try mixing KClO3 with break fluid and setting it off with a cap. U can stuff the mixture into holes or cracks etc or whatever. Anyways it is more powerful than the
Vasline mix and mixing almost any other explosive makes it more powerful except the insensitive ones. Picric acid and the waxy ones don't work. Unfortunately its is slurryish
and not plastic.

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shady m utha
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 149
From : austra lia
posted 02-25-2001 06:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As e arly as 1 8 1 8 B e r t h o l l e t s u g g e s t e d t h e r e p l a c e m e n t o f p o t a s s i u m nitrate in blackpowder by potassium chlorate,which he had
prepared for the first time in 1786.Thu s "white powder",which is a mixture of potassium ch orate with suger,was
evolved.However,this mixture proved to be particularly sensitive to friction and impact,hence its preparation a n d u s e e x t r e m ely
dangerous.Further ex p e r i m e n t s s h o w e d t h a t p u r e p o t a s s i u m c h l o r a t e h a s n o e x p l o s i v e p r o p e r t i e s b u t w h e n u s e d i n a d m i x t u r e
with com bustibles such as sug er,starch or aluminium it gives rise to an explosive highly sensitive to mechanicle
action,especially to friction.
The addition to potassium chlorate of vegetable oils,fats or m inerals oils which arom atic nitro com p o u n d s a r e d i s s o l v e d , a s
recom m e n d e d b y S t r e e t , p r o v e d t o b e a m i l e s t o n e i n t h e d e v e l o p m ent of chlorate explosives.Thw applicatio n o f a n a d m ixture
of caster oil was particularly useful.The presence of oils and fats in the explosives reduced their sensitiveness to friction and
im pact,and the oily ingredient conferre d a sligh yly plastic consistency.
As was to be expected,mixtures with nitrobenzene are the most powerful and the most readily detonated.Mixtures with
kerosene or vaseline are of equal strengh,those with a sm a l l k e r o s e n e c o n t e n t ( 2 - 4 % ) d e t o n a t e m o r e e a s i l y t h a n t h o s e
containing th e s a m e a m ount of vaseline while m ixtures which contain a larger am o u n t o f k e r o s e n e or vaseline(8-10 %)
detonate with more or less equal ease.Mixtures with paraffin oil lie close to those with kerosene while m ixtures with paraffin are
sim ilar to those with vaseline
P o t a s s i u m c h l o r a t e c a n b e r e p l a c e d b y s o d i u m chlorate which is cheaper and more widely availible although b e i n g s o m ewhat
hygroscopic it is m uch less frequently used as a consitituent of explosives
Explosives of this type were m anufactured at Chedde in France,whence they derived their nam e C h eddite.They were
recom ended originally for use in mines,but were gradua lly withdrawn as unsafe to use in the presence of methane and coal
dust.
For m ilitary purposes Cheddites were produced with the following compositions:
Explosif O No 1 Type 41
Potassium chlorate 80% nitronapthalene 12% caster oil 8%
Explosif O NO 1 Type 60
Potassium chlorate 80% dinitrotoluene 2% nitronapthalene 13% caster oil 5%
Explosif O No2 m o d i f i e
79% pottasium nitrate 15% dinitrotoluene 1%n itronapthalene 5% caster oil
Type O NO 6B
9 0 % p o t a s s i u m chlorate 3%vaseline 7% parafin
Explosif S
Sodium chlorate 90% vaseline 3% paraffin 7%
The first thre e types of cheddites were used in France for filling hand grenades and shells with low m uzzle velocity and for
m anufacturing dem olition charges during W orld W ar 1.When the re was a shortage of nitro componds in France,Cheddite type O
NO 6B was em ployed as a substitute for the first two.
Kast gives th e following figures as characteristic of C heddite type O No2,m onifie:
Apparent density 1.15
Heat of explosion 1185 kcal/kg
Gas volum e 337.1/kg
T e m perature of explosion ca.4500.c
Specific pressure 6090 m
R a t e o f d e t o n a t i o n ( a t d e n s i t y o f 1 . 3 ) 3 0 0 0 m / s e c ( a t d e n s i t y o f 1 . 5 ) 4 0 0 0 m /sec
Lead block expansion 255cm 3
Sensitive to impact(2 kg) 30cm .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > MAP gas - Archive File
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megalomania June 21st, 2003, 12:23 PM

m ark
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 203
From :
posted 06-18-2001 12:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I h a v e a q u e stion: is MAP gas lighter than air? Not for floating balloons, but if i filled a paint can with the gas, and the paint
c a n h a s a h o le in the top and the bottom , which hole would the m a p g a s l e a k o u t o f ?
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From : C a n a d a
posted 06-18-2001 01:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W ell, it is usually hea vier than air depending on the concentration of the mixed gasses. For instance, i have a bottle of MAPP
gas that is 66% m ethylacetylene. this is heavier then air.
------------------
Explosives Archive
SafetyLast
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 235
posted 07-14-2001 04:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I have a couple bottles of compressed MAPP gas. the bottles them selves are yellow and the gas smells absolutely
disgusting (like nauseating)
it is good for m aking fireballs with.
what else is it good for?
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 07-23-2001 08:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper, silver and m ercury acetylides!
BTW : CH3-C#C - H h a s a M M o f 4 0 g / m ole while air is 4/5 of N2 28g/m o l e a n d 1 / 5 o f O 2 3 2 g / m o l e .
So due to the laws of perfect gases: 1 mole of gas (any gas takes a volume of 22.41 liter at 20C (+/- 0.2 for very big
m olecules).
T h i s m eans that even if air was pure O 2 and has a density of 32g/22.41 l MA would be heavier about 1/4 h eavier.
------------------
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 292
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
posted 07-23-2001 02:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mapp gas wa s intended for we lding and brazing on a very sm all scale where the costs would be cheaper tha n acetylene, yet the
flam e (when with oxygen) would be hotter than with propane.
Mendeleev Novem ber 6th, 2003, 12:33 AM

I also own several MAPP gas cylinders, and I re ad on some internet source that MAPP gas burned hotter than acetylene. Is that
true?
xyz Novem ber 6th, 2003, 03:52 AM

I don't know about th at, acetylene burns very hot when mixed with oxygen. About 3300C at the hottest pa rt of the flame
IIR C.
Axt Novem ber 6th, 2003, 05:48 AM

Propane - 2828
MAPP - 2,927
Acetylene - 3410
You may think there isnt much difference, but that only tells part of the story, its the heat distribution within the flam e that
m atters, at least for welding/cutting.
MrSamosa Novem ber 19th, 2003, 12:26 PM

Not having access to Calcium Carbide (yet, at least) or straight Acetylene , which I intend to use for testing FAE m ixtures, cou ld
I substitute with MAPP? That is, are Methyl Acetylene an d Propadiene capable of detonating in proper concentrations with air,
like Acetylene is? I have not seen any mention of either forming "explosive" air mixtures in their MSDS's, as I have with the
MSDS of Acetylene...unless that little line has slipped m y m emory.
Mumble Novem ber 19th, 2003, 10:35 PM

Acco rding to this site: http://www.tpub.com /steelworker1/34.htm MAPP gas has a low explosive con centratio n in air. I think that
will ruin all your fun. If you did it in pure oxygen it goes m uch higher than the 10.8% possible in air. W hile it doesn't
specifically say detonation or no detonation, I believe it m ay be possible if using oxygen. Using just air is a bit iffy.
simply RED Novem ber 20th, 2003, 05:30 AM

Mixtures of methylacetylene a nd propadiene will form ultra stron g FA mixtures with air.
Detonated in enclosed space they will have at least 3 tim es the destrctive effect of the equal m a s s T N T .
MrSamosa Novem ber 21st, 2003 , 12:14 PM

Due to Methyl Acetyle ne's rather narrow explosive limits in normal air, in com parison to its very wid e lim its in a pure Oxygen
environm ent, I have a mildly innovative idea (somethin g sim ilar m ay have been suggested in the other FAE threads)... why
not artificially enhance the am ount of available Oxygen, by dispersing pure Oxygen gas with the MAPP or other fuel?? In this
way, the fuel still relies on atm ospheric O x y g e n ( t h u s t h e " V a c u u m B o m b" effect), but the provided O x y g e n b o o s t s i t s
p e r f o r m a n c e a n d m a k e s i t m ore easily detonable. No, this won't expand the limits up to 80%...but even 30% or 40% will m a k e
things much easier.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > KNO 3? - Archive File
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krim m i e
New Mem ber
Posts: 28
From : S. Fla.
posted 06-29-2001 10:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I d r e a m t that a local nursery sold a 50 lb. bag of this stuff for $2 0.00. Sorry if this subject goes into the misc. section. The
guaranteed analysis states...........
Total nitogen....................13 %
Nitrate nitrog e n 1 3 %
Solu ble Potash as (K2O).........44%
Chorine, not more than............2%
I rem e m b e r d r e a m ing that this stuff(once ground with a blender) was a little off color than the stuff I had purchased on the
net. But, it did react well with sugar, and even better with charcoal and S. I have searched the archives and couldn't find
anything on this basic Q .
Did I dream of the co rrect stuff? Sorry if this is too basic of a Question fo r you all.
c0deblue
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 229
From :
posted 06-30-2001 02:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you're right - this probably does belong in Miscellaneous.
T h a t s a i d . . . C o m m ercial KNO3 fertilizer norm ally carries the designation 14-0-45. The 13-0-44 specification of your product
isn't that far off, but it indicates a product som ewhat different from the usual KNO 3 fertilizer. Also, the "not greater than 2%
chlorine" see ms unusual IMO. It shouldn't give trouble in ordinary m ixtures, but a chlorine content as high as 2% m ight
p r e s e n t a p r o b l e m with certain com positions.
The following specifications might be u seful:
Potassium Nitrate (Fe rtilizer) 97.5%Min. Specification: KNO 3 97.5%Min. N 13.5%Min. K2O 45.4%Min. NaC l 0.8%Max. Packing:
In 25Kgs net plastic woven bag with plastic lining
Potassium Nitrate (Industrial Grade) 99.8%Min. Specification: Purity: 99.8%Min. Moisture: 0.10%Max. Chloride: 0.03%Max.
I n s o l u b l e M a tter in W ater 0.01%Max. Sulphate: 0.01%Max. Moisture Absorption 0.25%Ma x.
For an interesting analytic study of the differences between reagent grades and fertilizer g r a d e s o f a m m o n i u m a n d p o t a s s i u m
nitrates, see: http://www.chem . u i d a h o . e d u / ~ c h e m 3037/pdf/white3.pdf
A more practical com parison from a pyro perspective is at R ichard Nakka's site: http://mem b e r s . a o l . c o m / n o n i l l i o n / k n - e x p . h t m l
[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited June 30, 2001).]
SATANIC
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 240
From : austra lia
posted 07-02-2001 12:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what com p o s i t i o n s s h o u l d b e a v o i d e d ?
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1513
posted 07-02-2001 01:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll leave this in the low explosives section since it involves m aking gunpowder.
what country do you live if you dont m ind m e a s k i n g . I a m looking for KNO3 in the US.
10fingers
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 415
From : U SA
posted 07-02-2001 09:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look in the yellow pages under hydrop o n i c s o r g r e e n h o u s e s u p p liers. They usually have 50 lb. bags for aro und $20.00.
Alchem ist
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 211
From : W oodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
posted 07-02-2001 03:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,
D o e s a n y o n e k n o w t h e n u m bering system for all usable fertillize rs, like Amm onium Nitrate, Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate,
etc. & etc.?
Thanks.......................................
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 113
From : u k
posted 07-02-2001 07:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think its n/p/k
nitrogen /phosphorus /potasssium by percentage
[This message has been edited by jin (edited July 02, 2001).]
c0deblue
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 229
From :
posted 07-02-2001 08:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alchem ist - Here are a couple of tables:
h t t p : / / a g g u i d e . a g r o n o m y.psu.edu/sect2/tab2-13.htm
and
http://www.anet.com /~manytim es/page24.htm (scroll down to Section IX-F "Inorg anics"
krim m i e
New Mem ber
Posts: 28
From : S. Fla.
posted 07-03-2001 05:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks all for the links and in fo. As you stated cO, it is a little off(being 13-0-44), but has worked quite we ll! There is virtually
no drop off of burn rate compared to the kno3 I purchased on the net. My analysis, so far, supports Richard Nakka's
c o m p a r i s o n s o n k n o 3 burn rates.
J
Moderator
Posts: 635
posted 07-03-2001 08:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It m ight have KCl added. KCl is som e t i m e s s o l d a s a f e rtilizer on its own. I doubt this will m atter, 2% impurity is very low for
pyro p u r p o s e s .

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the_wingm a n
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From :
posted 07-05-2001 04:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi guys
In a topic I've read about a lo w explosive containing 75% KClO3 , 12.5% C, 12.5% S.
Is this really the best composition? I think 65:20:15 works m uch better. Does sb know the "optim a l " p e r c e n t a g e s o f t h e s e
ingredients (m e a n s t h a t t h e f u e l i s c o m p l e t e l y o x i d a t e d by the KClO 3)?
W hich do you think is the best low exp losive that contains a chlorate or nitrate bu t no m etal powder?
king s p a z
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 360
From : U K
posted 07-05-2001 05:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well for m e 8 0% KClO 3 and 20% charcoal works fine. it burns and leaves nothing left over so i guess it m ust be fairly well
bala nced.
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 1013
posted 07-05-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I use 73:27 when using KClO 3/C m ixtures, in grains about 1m m in diameter. It's VERY good.
king s p a z
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 360
From : U K
posted 07-05-2001 05:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think its superior to ordinary black po wder made with KNO3 because it is easier to achieve a fast burn rate and it is also m uch
m ore moisture resistant. i use it for everything because of the ease of m aking KClO 3. i only use the KNO3 BP for fu s e s
because of the solutbility of KNO 3 in water and slower burn rate.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From : C a n a d a
posted 07-05-2001 05:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KClO3 and ascorbic acid works better than H3 in my opinion. KNO3/Ascorbic acid (C 6H8O6) Grained works Very nicely. 46 g
ascorbic acid, 78 g kno3 and 2 gram s dextrin works well.
J
Moderator
Posts: 635
posted 07-05-2001 06:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e i d e a l a m ount of Charcoal in any m ixture is next to im possible to determ ine, due to the differences between the materials
u s e d t o m a k e i t . V a r i a b l e s l i k e c o o k i n g t i m e a l s o h a v e a n e f f e c t o n t h e n u m b e r o f v o l a t i l e s p r e s e n t . G e t t i n g t h e a m ounts
slightly off won't matter becau s e o f t h i s , w h e t h e r y o u ' r e m a k i n g B P o r H 3 . T h e P F P d a t a b a s e h a s m any formulae for BP, with a
wide variation in Charcoal content.
J
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 07-23-2001 08:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found that com p o s i t i o n i n b o o k s a l o n g t i m e ago and was surp ise it to be the sam e as black powder. 75 KClO3/12.5 C/12.5 S
this mix was used in m ines due to its high brisance.
It is wise to m ix 1-2% CaCO3 to reduce risks of spontaneous ignition by residual traces of H2SO 4 in the S.
Beware of this m ix it is really very very powerful with an iron pipe 4cm d i a m e t e r 3 5 c m l o n g with 0.5cm thickness walls (powder
unpressed) set by a fuse (pipe with or without cap)don't expect to find m etal pieces bigger than this space [-] except for the
end cap ( a lot of KILLING schrapnells).
By calculations of optimum m i x e s o f K C l O 3 / S a nd KClO3/C you find this form u l a b a c k
try it (I don't have m y medeliev table so I can't do it)
2KClO3 + 3S--> 2KCl + 3SO2 -> x g KClO3/1g S
2KCLO3 + 3C--> 2KCl + 3CO 2 -> w g KClO3/1g C
now multiply by 12.5 x and w, you get x+w=75g!
The use of activated carbon is recom m anded since very fine dust and it allows to adsorb a lot of things acidity, gases,...
------------------
deezs
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 113
From : Hungary
posted 07-23-2001 02:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The periodic table of the elem ents should be in your he ad!
C 12
S 32
Cl 35.5
O 16
K 39

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Who voted mekap off the island? -
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Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-30-2001 03:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been reading through the abundant information about Acetone Peroxide, but have seen no other information on the
Peroxide family of explosive's. It is nearly impossible to find information on MEKAP, the third member of the family (the
others being HMTD and acetone peroxide). Like its relative's, however it offers a fairly high power output.
For the uninformed MEKAP can be synthesized by the following procedure:
MATERIALS:
PVC-pipe cleaning fluid with METHYL ETHYL KETONE.
Hydrogen Peroxide at least 20%
Concentrated sulfuric acid
PROCEDURE:
1. Refrigerate pipe cleaner, hydrogen peroxide and sulfuric acid for at least an hour.
2. Combine 50 parts by volume hydrogen peroxide with 30 parts PVC-pipe cleaner fluid and stir well.
3. Slowly add 2.5 parts sulfuric acid while stirring vigorously.
4. Cover with plastic wrap and place in the refrigerator. After at least 24 hours, remove and let stand at room temperature for
six hours.
5. Filter through paper towel and collect crystals.
6. Let crystals dry and store in an airtight jar.
The product is a flame sensitive primary explosive that has about the same power as acetone peroxide and HMTD.
MEKAP's shelf life as well as power can be improved with the addition of a small amount 20% by weight of potassium chlorate
to the explosive.This explosive WILL react with certain metals.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-30-2001 10:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello MEKAP,
Where did ya find this info ? I have a simular recipe, but it uses Concentrated HCL rather than H2SO4 and it has never worked
so I never posted it.
How does it react with certain metals, to form salts, detonates, or ?
*** looks like I'll have to try this one again! ***
------------------
[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited May 30, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 412
From: England
posted 05-30-2001 01:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No offence MEKAP, but sounds slightly.... shit. I wouldn't mix KClO3 with ANYTHING made with H2SO4, it could cause ignition
which would lead to detonation.
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Fallout85
Frequent Poster
Posts: 57
From: U.S.
posted 05-30-2001 05:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sounds O.K. to me, as long as you removed the acid with lots of washing. The sulfuric acid is only a catalyst. None should be
present anyway.
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-30-2001 06:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got the information on MEKAP from the Improvised Munitions Black Book, written by
commanding officer
frankford arseneal
so if it sounds slightly shit complain to the U.S. army, and stick your unbelievably
sensitive Acetone peroxide up your ass.
Alchemist: at last someone who knows what there on about. When I said react with other metals, it is pretty much exactly the
same as acetone peroxide (an extremely reactive compound). So when producing do your best to isolate it from pretty much
everything that has not been wax coated. As it will (like acetone peroxide) decompose explosivly.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-30-2001 09:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello again,
Sounds good I'll dream about it again soon!
P.S., MEKAP, is there anything else interesteng in that book?
------------------
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-31-2001 12:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alchemist:
Table Of Contents:
Lead Nitrate
Lead Azide
Mekap primary explosive
Sulfuric Acid
Explosive "D"
Starch Nitrate
Optimized process for RDX manufacture
PETN
Semtex
Making a furnace
Hydrogen Azide
Ethylene Glycol Dinitrate
Dynamites
Castable impact sensitive explosive
Copper slug charge
shotshell antipersonnel mine
Canister grenade
Canister grenade launcher
Det-cord 55 gallon drum charge
Offenisive hand grenade
Poison filled hollowpoint ammunition
HC smoke
Simplified compound detonators
Fuming sulfuric acid (oleum)
Potassium cyanide
Hydrogen cyanide grenade
Chlorine generator
Appendix A: Ammendments
Appendix B: Chemicals
Appendix C: Primary and secondary explosives.
I am currently scanning my books, and will share this and other good military explosive books. If there is anything you want
from above just reply to this with the chapter you want and I will post it directly back.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 782
From: Canada
posted 05-31-2001 01:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very interested in the dynamite chapter. can you please post this?
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 412
From: England
posted 05-31-2001 02:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I take it back, looks like its true! But I stil wouldn't add KClO3 to it.
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-31-2001 02:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A good way to use sensitive nitric esters like methyl nitrate and ethylene glycol dinitrate is in combination with other
nonexplosive or less sensitive ingredients to form dynamites. Depending on which mix you decide to use, you will need only
some of the following materials.
MATERIALS: SOURCES:
Methyl nitrate Section 1,No 12
Ethylene glycol dinitrate Section 1,No 52
Nitrocellulose Single base

smokeless powder
Ammonium nitrate Garden supply

store
Potassium nitrate Section 1,No 2
Sodium nitrate Chemical supply

store
Sawdust, wood meal, etc Lumber yard
Diatomaceous earth Pool supply store
Baking soda Grocery store
Oven tray
PROCEDURE:
Percentages of ingredients by weight for different mixes:
STRAIGHT DYNAMITES
Nitric ester 20 25 30 40 50 60 75
Potassium nitrate 70 50 62 45 30 20
Wood meal 10 25 8 15 20 20
Diatomaceous earth 25
AMMONIA AND SEMI-GELATIN DYNAMITES

Nitric ester 10 20 33 25 30 75
Cellulose nitrate 1 1 5
Ammonium nitrate 83 75 30 64 30 15
Potassium nitrate 27 30
Wood meal 7 5 10 10 9 5
BLASTING GELATIN AND GELATIN DYNAMITES

Nitric ester 93 92 37 47 56 65 75
Cellulose nitrate 7 8 3 3 4 5 5
Potassium nitrate 48 40 30 22 16
Wood meal 12 10 10 8 4
Note: Each group has its advantages, and in each group there are more and less powerful mixtures.
For the straight dynamites, the 60% dynamite is the most powerful. This group requires few ingredients and is therefore
relatively cheap to make.
For the semigelatin dynamites, the last composition is the most powerful and water resistant while still having a relatively cool
flame, which is the advantage of all semigelatin dynamites.
For the gelatin dynamites, the first two mixtures are the most powerful not only of their group but of any dynamites.
1. In order to manufacture any of the dynamites, simply place in the oven tray the appropriate percentages by weight of the
dry ingredients and spread them out evenly.
2. Next, slowly pour the required percentage by weight of the nitric ester on top of the dry ingredients and mix them well. Next,
add 5% baking soda as a preservative.
3. Finally, place the damp explosive into a pipe nipple and insert a blasting cap. Confine both ends for best performance.
MEKAP SAYS" Just in case this format is confusing, nitric esters are your explosive(Niroglycerin,Ethylene glycol dinitrate,etc)
Hopefully I will have everything scanned soon so bear with me.
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-31-2001 02:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry about the dynamite tables, something about this format.
Here they are in a failsafe format:
STRAIGHT DYNAMITES:
Nitric ester-------20--25--30--40--50--60--75
Potassium nitrate-70--50--62--45--30--20----
Wood meal-------10--25---8--15--20--20----
Diatomaceous earth------------------------25
AMMONIA AND SEMIGELATIN DYNAMITES:
Nitric ester-------10--20--33------25--30--75
Cellulose nitrate-------------------1---1---5
Ammonium nitrate-83--75--30------64--30--15
Potassium nitrate----------27----------30----
Wood meal---------7---5--10------10---9---5
BLASTING GELATIN AND GELATIN DYNAMITES:

Nitric ester-------93--92--37--47--56--65--75
Cellulose nitrate---7---8---3---3---4---5---5
Potassium nitrate---------48--40--30--22--16
Wood meal----------------12--10--10---8---4
[This message has been edited by Mekap (edited May 31, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mekap (edited May 31, 2001).]
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-31-2001 03:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cant fucking win!
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
posted 05-31-2001 03:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Mekap,I think you had fine book!I am very much interested about the optimized manufacture of RDX,as well as PETN
and Semtex,could you please post that too?Thanks.
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-31-2001 03:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OPTIMIZED PROCESS FOR RDX MANUFACTURE
This process produces twice as much RDX as the prodcedure outlined in Section 1 No 38. This product also contains larger
amounts of the high explosive HMX than the simple
nitric acid/hexamine process.
MATERIALS:
Ammonium nitrate
Acetic anhydride
Formaldehyde or (preferably) paraformaldehyde
Acetone
Glass or ceramic container
Thermometer
Pan
Salt/Water/Ice mix
Paper towel
Heat source
PROCEDURE:
1.Mix 260 mililitres of acetic anhydride with 100 grams of ammonium nitrate and place in a pan that is siiting in boiling
water(double boiler).Allow temperature to reach and remain at 90 degrees celcius.
2. Add 38 grams of paraformaldehyde to the mixture, 1/2 teaspoon at a time, stirring constantly. If using 40% formaldehyde
solution, use 95 grams. CAUTION: At this point toxic, flammable fumes are released. Avoid inhalation and contact with
exposed skin.
3. Once all the formaldehyde mix has been added, remove from heat and allow to cool to room temperature (27 degrees
celcius) and cool further by placing in a pan of salt/water/ice mix (ice bath).
4. Filter through paper towel, save liquid and thoroughly wash the resulting crystals with water. Dump the liquid into a gallon of
cold water. More crystals will precipitate out. Filter these out, discard the liquid, and wash with clean water.
5. Dump ctystals into a quart of 50 degrees celcius acetone. Cool in ice bath and filter out crystals that precipitate out of the
solution.
6. Store the crystals in a cool, dry place in a covered container.
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
posted 05-31-2001 03:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I originally wrote this post about Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide. Since we have completely strayed from this subject, I am now
closing this. If you still want PETN and SEMTEX reply to this and I will start again in the high explosives section.
cutefix
Frequent Poster
Posts: 330
From: california
posted 05-31-2001 05:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was a simple way to prepare RDX from the easy to find ingredients except maybe for the anhydride.This looks similar to
the "E" process once written in the High explosive section of this forum.Additional info about PETN and Semtex would be most
welcome.Thanks
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 05-31-2001 10:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello MEKAP and others,
Looks like a great book, but rather than keep posting chapters from it, it might be better to put it in pdf format,or zipped txt if
ya can and post the whole thing. I am sure one of the gang here that has a web sight can help ya out. I under stand you have
several other good books and this is the best way to do it. Thanks and keep up the great work!
------------------
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 457
posted 05-31-2001 06:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide IS SOLD AT HARDWARE STORES, at least in Australia. It comes in 30% concentrations, and it's
cheap too. I made enough for a dozen or so detonators by simply leaving the bucket of it outside to let the solvent
evaporate. What was left after a few hot days was a thick layer of MEKP crystals.
Bewm!
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 62
From:
posted 05-31-2001 07:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The hydrogen peroxide only needs to be 20 vols which is 6% & the formula is from the black book companion ive got black
books 1 2 & 3 from desert publications & the black book companion from paladin press a few years ago & i found them to be
good books .But somethings are bit dated so im all ways hearing
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
posted 06-01-2001 03:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have the 'companion' also,but when I 'dreamed' of trying to make mekap,it didn't work (I used pure Methyl ethyl
Ketone,bought at Lowes).Perhaps the pipe cleaning fluid the author used had acetone in it as well?.
[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited June 01, 2001).]
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
posted 06-01-2001 10:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
I also dreamed of making MEKAP, with pure mek and it did not work either. In the dream I did as discribed. It only formed 2
liquids, one on the other. One looks like the acid plus h2o2 and the other the MEK. MEKAP, do ya have any thoughts?
Thanks....
------------------
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 267
From:
posted 06-01-2001 02:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hei Codemason
what's the brand of that methyl ethyl ketone peroxide ?
and is it also a PVC cleaner??
(geez, evaporate and bewm......so what if some residue got left in pipe installation in a heat contained area...?)
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 457
posted 06-02-2001 10:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll have to check up on that for you, it has been a while since I played with MEKP. Next time I go to the hardware store, I'll jot
down brand name, legitamite uses, etc.
SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: australia
posted 07-04-2001 03:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have a friend who works in a hardware store! which hardware store, i'll go and see if i can fid it myself
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From:
posted 07-04-2001 04:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEKAP, when posting figures like you were in the posts above, use the {CODE} {/CODE} tags
(replace the {} with [] )
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1013
posted 07-04-2001 07:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mekap: Could you tell me what the castable impact sensitive explosive and copper slug charge are? I'm guessing that the
copper slug charge is some sort of EFP (explosively formed projectile).
Please just post them up here or e-mail them to me.
Thanks.
Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 145
From: Australia
posted 07-05-2001 01:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you post pictures????????
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 610
From: ?
posted 07-05-2001 03:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{IMG}http://URLofthepicture.jpg{/IMG}
replace {} with []
------------------
arkAngel

Tony Montana
Frequent Poster
Posts: 145
From: Australia
posted 07-05-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you cant post pictures you have on your computer?
They have to be from the net?
DarkAngel: Do you want a good book to add to your site?
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 610
From: ?
posted 07-06-2001 03:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope you must upload them to a server.
send me an email about the book.
------------------
arkAngel

mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
posted 07-17-2001 03:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just a guess, but MEKAP sounds like type of of AP. Tryclo, dyclo, methyl... Just a hunch.
Also, what advantages does MEKAP have? Less sensitive? More power?
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
posted 07-21-2001 07:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys need to be more informed, there are at least 3 isomers of dimeric MEKP (cyclic and non-cyclic, just like acetone
peroxides)
the structural difference between cyclic and non-cyclic is simple:
cyclic has "cycle" ing structure -O-
noncyclic is a simpler hydroperoxide -OH-
Here is a website to inject your minds with information:
http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/sltc/methods/organic/org077/org077.html
Also notice what it says about commercial MEKP:
"that the main components of the commonly used industrial MEK peroxide are monomer and dimer and that the cyclic dimer is
not present."
Be cautious Alchemist those aren't just chemicals you are playing with it is your life, that other layer was most probably a
MEKP.
Look through the patents and internet search engines, you'll find everyhting you need. Trust me.
"The first soap was made from the ashes of heroes. Like the first monkey shot into space. Without pain, without sacrifice, we
would have nothing."
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
posted 07-23-2001 02:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course what I meant:
hydroperoxide: O-OH-
cyclic peroxide: -O-O-

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD formula - Archive File
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oxyrad
New Mem ber
Posts: 14
From : Perth,W estern Australia
posted 07-18-2001 10:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D o e s a n y o n e k n o w t h e chemical formu la for the reaction which m a k e s H M T D
------------------
YZ's are the best
VasiaPupkin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 48
From : Moscow. Russia
posted 07-19-2001 02:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I m a k e H M T D f r o m HNO 3: It so easy.
(CH2)6N4 + 2HNO 3 + 3H2O 2 => N(CH2O OCH2)3N + 2NH4NO3 + 3H2O . If you use citric acid, reaction like this.
sim ply RED

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 242
From : HELL
posted 07-19-2001 06:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The equation would b e a b s o l u tely right if the 3 molecules water in the rig ht didn't existed.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
posted 07-23-2001 07:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W rong!
(CH2)6N4 + HNO 3 + H2O 2 --> N(CH2O -OCH2)3N + NH4 NO3 + H2O d o e s n ' t n e e d t o b e e q u i l i b r a t e d l i k e m any organic
reactions!
Since a lot of interme diaries can occur like m ethylamine nitrate; the m e c h a n i s m i s s o c o m plex that by facility you don't write all
the com p o u n d s !
As a remark I can add that water is the main ingredient in this reaction since you dont use 100% HNO3 nor H2O2 (what would
be BTW suicidal!).
S o i n d e e d H 2 O i s f o r m ed from H 2 O 2 !
I wonder if Simplyred can tell m e in wh at the peroxyde of hydrogen would turn in...
Actually I think he m iss an important info:
C6H12N4 + H2O <--> HO CH2-NH2 + HOCH2-NH-CH2OH + (HOCH2)3N + polym ers of the sam e family.
------------------
VasiaPupkin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 48
From : Moscow. Russia
posted 07-23-2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In that proportions (from this reaction formulas) the better yeild (I use 5 0% H2O2). I checked it m any tim es. But reaction is
really m ore complex. This is only com m o n e q u a t i o n .
invcdr Novem ber 18th, 2003, 09:53 AM

I heard that the acid added in HMTD reaction is just catalyst.
(In addition, the citric acid has no nitrogen atom s in it's m olecule.)
Therefore I assumed the acid should not be involved in the reaction.
After doing a sim ple calculatio n, I thought that the HMTD reactio n would be like this;
C 6 H 1 2 N 4 + 3 H 2 O 2 = > C 6 H 1 2 O 6N2 + 2NH3
In other words...
1 m o l e h e x a m in + 3 m o l e s h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e y i e l d
1 m o l e H M T D + 2 m o les am m o n i a
(molecular m ass... C: 12, H:1 , O:16, N:14)
O f c o u r s e t h e a m m onia will be dissolved into water, forming NH4 and OH ions.

Is this formu la right?
P l e a se correct my fau lts.
Thank you.
invcdr Novem ber 19th, 2003, 03:11 AM

The answer is found from H e l o s ' s p o s t .
(Here it is: http://roguesci.org/theforum /showthread.php?s=&threadid=278)
I n s u m mary, the thre e reactio n steps are as below;
C6H12N4 + 6 H2O ======> 4NH3 + 6CH2O (1st step)
6 HCHO + 3 H2O2 ======> 3 HO-CH2-O-O-CH2-O H (2nd step)
3 HO-CH2-O-O-CH2-OH + 2 NH3 ======> HMTD + 6 H2O (3rd step)
As a result, the total reaction scheme is:
3 H2O2 + Hexamine ======> HMTD + 2 NH3

(3 m o l e s H 2 O 2 + 1 m o l e H e x a m in yield 1 mole HMTD + 2 m oles NH3)
I corrected the '3 H2O' in the original post to '6 H2O '.
Therefore the mass ratios of reactants are;
(ingredients)
H e x a m ine 140
Hydrogen peroxide 3*34=102
(yield)
HMT D 208
Am m o n i a 3 4
The law of conservation of ma ss is satisfied.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Washing HMTD and AP - Archive File
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Pyro Essentials
New Member
Posts: 7
From:
Registered: JUL 2001
posted 07-20-2001 12:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My HMTD is finished and I was going to wash it in the following way:
Take a large glass and put the coffie filter in it, then mix some bakeing soda with water and add it to my HMTD mix. Then Pour it into the coffie filter and then after I got the
crystals put in in another glass and run distiled water over it and then put some bakeing soda water over it and then wash it all off again with distiled water.
The only problem I see with all of this is the problem of getting the crystals out of the cofffie filter since they are exceptionally small, like sand only white/clear. Any
suggestions on how to do this please respond ASAP since I dont want to leave it sitting with the reactants for unnessessary amt's of time.
Thanks
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
posted 07-20-2001 02:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Use a peice of fine weave cloth for a filter and you can gently scrape the wet crystals off of it with a blunt instrument.
Pyro Essentials
New Member
Posts: 7
From:
posted 07-20-2001 04:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did the same thing I said I would do but I used too much bakeing soda I thing, I was filtering it out for a while and then to my relief all my HMTD crystals were all still there
after filtering, I am going to go scrape it off into a film can and do that a few times until I get a little more, I dont know how much I got exactly but it would fill a quarter tsp
and if it was all stacked it would amt to over 2mm high. I gotta get my scale fixed.
Pyro Essentials
New Member
Posts: 7
From:
posted 07-20-2001 04:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Anthony, you let me know I was doing it right and that I wasnt going to loose my hmtd or my hand.
Would I get a better yield if I was to make AP and not HMTD? Would they let me buy it @ the hardware store? I am not 18 so they will prob. ask questions, call the manager,
and make me put it back. The usual routine.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
posted 07-20-2001 06:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the yeilds are roughly the same with AP and HMTD for the same amount of H2O2. By acetone is no problem if you're under 18, just don't tell them you're going to sniff
it.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
posted 07-20-2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL,that's what he guy said to me when I was buying my Acetone.
"Your not gunna sniff it and get high are you son?"

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Trim er vs. Dimer
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Kid Orgo June 23rd, 2003, 02:07 AM

I was driving back from CT tonight thinking about AP.
If th e trimeric form is m ore desirable because it is both more powerful and more stable, would it be worthwhile to purify an
o b t a i n e d m i x o f d i m er and trim er? I'm assuming one could seperate the two by dissolving them in a solvent and using the
freezing point difference, or any of the e s t a b l i s h e d m e t h o d s o f s e p e r a t i n g two organic com p o u n d s .
The perfectionist in m e would want my first dream s of illicit synthesis to be perfect, with testable purity.
grendel23 June 23rd, 2003, 02:56 AM

If your goal were stability and performance, AP would not be my first choice, but if you want the m o s t s t a b l e i s o m e r o f A P , y o u
can use tin chloride, SnCl4 as a catalyst to produce tetram eric AP.
I have only dream ed up trime ric myself, but I have a PDF of a p a p e r p u b l i s h e d i n t h e J o u r n a l o f C h e m ical Research describing
its p reparation. If anyone is interested , I could post it.
I d o n t rem e m ber where I got this PDF; it m a y have b e e n f r o m a m e m b e r s we b s ite, if s o I a p o logize fo r not giving
attribution.
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2003, 03:59 AM

Bein g isom ers of the sam e chem ical, and having essentially sim ilar physical properties, it'd be VER Y difficult to seperate di-
from tri-.
It'd be m uch sim plier to just make your batch while cooling it as much as possible to ensure the production of only the trim eric
form in the first place .
THErAPIST June 23rd, 2003, 04:43 AM

I've actually m a d e b o t h d i m eric and trimeric an d there didn't appear to b e m uch if any difference at all. I usually make AP b y
m ixing in sm all am ounts with cold H2O 2, cold acetone, and cold HCL but I wanted to see what the difference was once. I put
5 0 m l of acetone in a 500 m l beaker with 50ml of 34% HCL. I ne x t a d d e d 1 0 0 m l of 24% H2O2 all at once, stirred if for a
couple secon ds, and then I ran away. I put the beaker in a buck et that h ad about 3 inches of wate r in it (which wasn't even
cold) in case it boiled over or anything. I stood a ways away watching it for about 10 m inutes, It didn't run away so I gave it
another 20 m inutes and then I walked over to it. The beaker looked like it had almost no liquid in it anym o r e a n d i t l o o k e d
like all I had was AP. I touched the beaker and found that it was REALLY warm (m ore like hot). I filtered, washed, and dried
t h e A P , a n d t h e n l o o k e d a t i t a g o o d b it. the crystals we re no sm aller tha n if they were m ade in the freezer. I hit som e with a
h a m mer... I had to hit it just as hard as I had to hit the AP that I m a d e i n t h e f r e e z e r . ( I h a d a l s o m ade a batch in the freezer
a couple days before so that I could test this). The products appeared to b e t h e s a m e t h i n g . I h a d a l w a s y b e e n u n d e r t h e
im pression that if AP had been made at even slightly warm tem peratures I would get the m uch less stable and less powerful
form ... Anyone seen the pics of the m ini AP shaped cha rges that were made to test the m ini EFP device with pennies thats in
the water cooler? The supposedly less powerful AP was used in those charges... A half gram of it threw the m etal backing 176
feet and 9 in ches down the road... The flight of the m etal backing was parallel with the road too. the board the charge was set
on was set 90 to the ground..
Kid Orgo June 23rd, 2003, 01:43 PM

Tetram eric AP? What are the properties? Has anyone ever dream ed of th a t b e f o r e ?
NBK: I thought that since the trimeric contains an additional bit of aceton e peroxide that it'd have a different m olecular weight,
and so on.
Grendel: Yes, i'd like to see that pdf a lot.
IPN June 23rd, 2003, 02:09 PM

H a s a n y o n e e v e r d r e a m ed of that before?
I'm not sure but the reason it isn't in wide use is probably because getting pure tin isn't easy and m aking tin tetrachloride
(clear liquid, melting point -33C, boilin g point 115C) is even more difficult.
And I don't think there is m uch of a difference between trim eric and tetrameric acetone peroxide.
I wo uld try it out but I cant get pure tin anywhere.. (W ell I could order it from Acros but it costs 16 p e r 1 0 0 g )
Mr Cool June 23rd, 2003, 03:02 PM

Lead-free solder: 95% Sn, 5% Sb. Not pure, but close.
megalomania June 23rd, 2003, 10:39 PM

You have broached a very interesting topic, VoD. The greater sensitivity and decreased de tonation velocity of the dim m e r i s
not so egregious to the im p r o v i s a t i o n a l e x p e r i m e n t e r . I n d e e d m o s t a m a teurs would probably desire increased yield s over the
s a f e ty factor. I suppo s e a s l o n g a s t h e d i m m er product is im mediately disposed of (utilized), the increased safety of the trimer
w o u l d n o t b e p a r a m o u n t . T h a t y o u h a v e o f f h a n dedly no ticed an increase in yield leads m e to belie ve there is a vast differen ce.
T e l m e, have you actually measured your product, or is your observation speculative?
nbk2000 June 24th, 2003, 01:01 AM

V o D i s n o l o n g e r a m ong us, having also been ElectricJesus, and one person can't have two identities here.
grendel23 June 24th, 2003, 07:06 AM

Kid Orgo, here is the url for th at PDF, you need to paste it into your browser.
http://www.geocities.com/sulfuric23/tetram eric_AP.pdf
I have been told you can disolve tin in HCl, and boil off the liquid to obtain SnCl4 . I have not tried that myself.
grendel
Mr Cool June 24th, 2003, 08:37 AM

That will m ake hydrated SnCl2, but IIRC that works too, although not as effective ly. You'd have to read the .pdf to find out,
because I can't be bothered to check right now...
SnCl4 needs hot tin and dry chlorine, and you condense and collect the SnCl4 vapours. Dry HCl m ight work too, I think, instead
of chlorine. Even if the hydrated SnCl2 is not as effective, if it works then I'd use that instead since it's so much easier to
m ake.

From what you have just described Mr Cool, the process of m a k i n g S n C l 4 sounds exactly like the m e t h o d I h a v e o n m y w e b s i t e
f o r m a k i n g a lum inum chloride . C h l o r i n e g a s i s p a s s e d o v e r a h e ated tube filled with aluminum turnings. Alum inum chloride is
collected in a flask, and that's about it. Chemically Sn is quite sim lar, which leads m e to believe the reaction is sim ilar.

Yp, m y chem book te lls this too. Sn is heated in a rounbottom e d f l a s k t o 2 5 0 - 2 8 0 * C a n d a s t r e a m of dry chlorine is directed
on it. Form e d S n C l 4 g o e s t o c o n d e n c e r . P r o b l e m would be to get rid of excess Cl2...
Following anhydrous chlorides can be made this way too : FeCl3, AlCl3, CdCl2, ZnCl2. Could any of those sh ow catalytical
properties for tetra-AP?

Actually my procedure for aluminum chloride uses hydrogen chlo ride gas, not chlorine. Although I do think chlorine will work, I
don't think it works as well. The chlorid e product should condense quite nicely in a chilled flask, excess chlo rine will continue
a n d s h o u l d b e v e n t e d t h r o u g h a l o n g h o s e . H y d r o g e n c h l o r i d e g a s c a n b e b u b b l e d i n t o w a ter and recycled as hydrochloric acid.
Actually with chlorine gas I have devised a creative setup to recirculate th e g a s t h r o u g h t h e s y s t e m . I h a v e a s m all $5 fish
p u m p that does a pretty good job of circulating air around. This could be set inside a sealed wood or plastic box, lik e a
tupperware b ox, with a hole drilled at one end for the gas tube and another for the cord. This box is then sealed. Another hole
allows for chlorine to enter from a chlorine generater. The exit gas from the reaction can be passed back in to the generator,
and into box where it is picked up by the pump and sent through again. I am sure this is not good for the pum p, but for the
price it seem s l i k e a g o o d i d e a .
I a m archiving that PDF file here:
metal dragon August 16th, 2003, 08:18 PM

Hello,
The rapist said that when he made AP with out any temp control, it got really hot. I was thinking th at it could actually
increase yields or the tim e it t a k e s t o f o r m . H e r e s ho w , 2 4 % H 2 O 2 c o n tains 76% water s o as the reaction is hot the water
s h o u l d b e e v a p o r a t e a t f a s t r a t e s o a s t h i s h a p pening the H2O2 is slowly concentrating. W o u l d t h i s h a p p e n ?
There is however bad side to heating it the acetone would evaporate but this could easily be countered by the addition m ore
a c e t o n e . I f it has no sensitivity issues according to rapist and s hockwave so why isn t it m ore widely used? Sure VOD is an
issue but instead of 0.5 grams you use 0.6 gra ms problem solved.
Thanks
Desmikes August 17th, 2003, 01:03 AM

D r a g o n w h a t e v e r y o u s a i d m a d e a b s o l u t e l y n o s e n s e h o w e v e r I d o a g r e e that when you need a detonator quick then you can
reso rt to m aking AP with a lot of acid.
Nevermore August 17th, 2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by metal dragon
Hello,
The rapist said that when he made AP with out any temp control, it got really hot. I was thinking th at it could actually
increase yields or the tim e it t a k e s t o f o r m . H e r e s ho w , 2 4 % H 2 O 2 c o n tains 76% water s o as the reaction is hot the water
s h o u l d b e e v a p o r a t e a t f a s t r a t e s o a s t h i s h a p pening the H2O2 is slowly concentrating. W o u l d t h i s h a p p e n ?
There is however bad side to heating it the acetone would evaporate but this could easily be countered by the addition m ore
a c e t o n e . I f it has no sensitivity issues according to rapist and s hockwave so why isn t it m ore widely used? Sure VOD is an
issue but instead of 0.5 grams you use 0.6 gra ms problem solved.
Thanks
W ell, i must say that this look s very dangerous, VOD is not an issue in this case, safety is. Dim eric acetone is m o r e u n s t a b l e
than trimeric one, considering how instable is the trim eric already i do not see the point of increasing the danger of handling
such com p o u n d .
Anyway, that's true, m i x i n g a c e t o n e a n d H 2 O 2 get really hot, operating w/o a tem perature control could led to dimeric peroxide
m ainly that is what we DON'T want, of course, the reaction will be lot faster when hot, but, really, i don't see the point.
AP is a dangerous com pound, no need to m ake it even more dangerous unless you have spare fingers.
nbk2000 August 17th, 2003, 08:42 PM

Don't use the quotes function to quote an entire post. :rolleyes:
It's only for specific lines or passages. Be selective. :)
me234 August 18th, 2006, 08:02 AM

OK, I'm in a rush so I'm bugg ered if I can find a m ore appropriate thread to put this in, so here goes:
A while ago I got the IR spectrum of AP and pu t it in the "Holy Grail Peroxide" thread and som e o n e s u g g e s t e d t h a t a n N M R
would be better, so here you have it, the proton NMR of (mostly) trim eric acetone peroxide run in CDCl3. And as no big
surp rise to those who know a bit about NMR ' s , o n e g i a n t - C H 3 p e a k , a n d a b i t o f j u n k .
The line list for the spectrum's m a i n p e a k s i s a s follows (along with m y suggestions about what they are/should/ m ight be):
PPM possibility
7.261 Chloro form peak (7.250 = theoretical chem ical shift)

1.567 Junk/maybe dim eric AP -CH3 peaks (doubtful though)
1.459 -CH3 peak trim eric AP
1.444 More junk
If people really want it (and I can get up the nerve) I suppose m ostly dim eric AP could be run.
Besides that, is there anything else pe ople really want the NMR of (some thing easy that I can get hold of, like, I can maybe
get a touch MHN, or I could do som e HMTD etc.)

m e234 did you try to run NMR of your sam ple at different dillution/concentration. If som e o f t h o s e p e a k s c h a n g e p o s i t i o n i t
c a n b e s o m e strayed HO-. W ater or maybe open form product, hydroperoxyde etc.? Did you find spectrum of H2O2 or t-Bu-
O O H to com pare?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Black AP!
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knowledgehungry June 23rd, 2003, 09:25 PM

50 ml of acetone was added to 300 ml of 3%h2o2 and cooled to 2 degrees celcius. 20 ml of h2so4 was then added to the solution the solution was allowed to sit after 2 hours
black crystals precipitated from the solution will give pics as soon as my friend takes them.
Does anyone have any idea what the fuck happened? Chemicals were same as used for previous reactions that resulted in normal AP, only thing is that the reactions occured in
an empty vodka bottle. I'm very confused by this.
Nihilist June 23rd, 2003, 10:08 PM

maybe the alcohol residue had some kind of effect on the reaction? this is just a thought and I have no idea why the fuck the crystals would turn black because of this.

Are you sure you didn't add the acid too fast ? Because local overheating and ebullition cause brown stuff to appear (locally), I guess it be some king of fucked AP.
Maybe the ebullition would cause the destruction of a part of the molecule, thus giving its black color.
yt2095 June 24th, 2003, 07:36 AM

the only other time i`ve know blackening of anything was carbonisation of things like sugars as a result of conc H2SO4.
but if you did the proceedure in the way you stated and there was sugar in the vodka i still can`t see how it could possibly happen.
it would suggest perhaps a metal contaminant to me, Manganesse perhaps?
have you ever in the past made oxygen with manganese dioxide with your same batch of H2O2? maybe some got in perhaps?
see if you isolate one and take a peek at it under a microscope.
you didn`t mention wether you made any "normal" TATP in your batch.
other than that, it beats the sh!t outa me! :)
all the best :)

Black shit in organic "synthesis" is almost always the result of destructive oxidation. Although acetone won't carbonize with H2SO4 and the conc of peroxide was quite low.
kingspaz June 24th, 2003, 11:08 AM

did he use drainopener H2SO4 though? and did he not dilute it first like a wise person would?
did you use pure H2O2 and pure acetone. if not what were the ingredients on the bottles?
it maybe that some different conditions occured that resulted in contaminents reacting to a greater degree than normal. does it behave like AP?
yt2095 June 24th, 2003, 11:23 AM

Kingspaz,
True!, i assumed in my assesment that he did.
realisticly then, it COULD be any one of a kazillion different things.
it would be fair to say Knowledgehungry, that we really need alot more details :)
else it`ll just be "grab a number out a hat" time.

The H2O2 was the standard OTC disinfectant(CVS brand) traces of phosphoric acid to stabilize. H2SO4 was liquid fire brand drain opener, and the Acetone was hardware store
grade Acetone. All of the chemicals have been used before which is why SWIM is confused. Perhaps trace amonts of Vodka reacted with contaminints in the acid, but i honestly
dont know. I'll post pics as soon as SWIM gets them and give results of explosive, solubility tests etc.
yt2095 June 24th, 2003, 02:44 PM

as a user of Technical or analytical grade chems, i couldn`t even begine to imagine what it is you`ve made there?
the Phosphoric is perfectly normal in H2O2 9it`s a stabiliser) and plays no significant part in the TATP reaction.
is it possible that there is OIL based products (specificly coal tar) as you mentioned it was a disinfectant?
other than that, as i posted previously....

it beats sh!t outa me :)

IIRC, don't most drain cleaners have a dye in them? I am not fimiliar with liquid fire because I don't have it here but maybe it was black? I have heard reports of NG being
coloured different because of the dye in the drain cleaner. My diggers HCl has something added that reacts with H2O2 to make an amber colour. Then the AP is orange but
when fuilly neutralized it goes white so it's kinda good :D
scarletmanuka June 26th, 2003, 04:48 AM

Blind reeper, are you saying that your AP worked allright even though it was orange? That would be very comforting , because I made a batch using Pool brand HCl and it also
turned orange, I thought I stuffed it up so I threw it out.
DaveTheShit June 26th, 2003, 07:32 AM

I have a bottle of liquid fire drain opener somewhere, and it's pretty clear, with a touch of yellow/brown color. Now, I've made AP with the black dyed acid before, and after a
couple washings the black color was gone. I do not know what the hell happened to knowlegehungry's AP though, maybe some crap fell in when you weren't looking. I would
be sure to take care with this batch, which I know you'll do, but just make sure to do.
fowkes.l June 26th, 2003, 08:41 AM

I thought I would tell you what happened last week when I was making AP.
I combined all chemicals and stirred with metal spoon in glass jar, I left it for two nights (i used 3% hydrogen peroxide) in ice water. AP had successfully formed except it was
a light green colour.
I thought about my process and worked out what I had done differently from other times. It was the metal spoon. I then made a new batch of AP, when I had filtered it I
decided to experiment and see what the metal spoon would do to the AP, on contact it turned that greeny colour again. This AP was not washed so it was obviously the metal
spoon reacting with the acid.
I usually wash my AP so don't worry.

It's pretty obvious, if you stir your chems with a metal spoon (steel), you have
2 H+ + Fe --> H2 + Fe2+
ah ! the greenish Fe2+ ion. Try with copper stirrer now to have blue AP ;)
blindreeper June 26th, 2003, 08:19 PM

scarletmanuka, yes the Ap worked fine. Your reaction hasn't stuffed up at all. If you neutralise it with NaHCO3 it will turn nice snow white and the orange colour will be gone!
It's kinda good because it's a sort of indicator, I don't know what though because my HCl is clear and fuming. The same thing happens when I make MEKP but the I notice no
colour change as the MEKP is red to start with.

My friend realized that the inside had a thin coating of something to make the bottle shine, he neglected to mention this when he told me about his procedure:mad: . So that
ends that mystery, the film reacted with one or more of the chems present and gave the discoloration. My friend said the AP did detonate however.
scarletmanuka June 27th, 2003, 06:49 AM

I was speaking to a brickie/chem teacher who said that the reason my reaction went orange was because the manufactured HCl has colourless Fe Salts are added for safety
reasons. When different ions are added, this creates the orange solution.

Well I don't want any nasty ass Fe compounds in my HCl. Good thing today in dulux paint store when my mum was getting paint for my room they sold 4L containers of 37%
HCl for $15 I think thats a reasonable price.
xyz July 4th, 2003, 04:57 AM

Try a pool shop blindreeper, I have got 5L of 37% HCl for $8AUD from a pool shop near me.
Bryan July 7th, 2003, 04:44 AM

I got 5L of 35% for $5AUD
blindreeper July 7th, 2003, 06:53 AM

Bryan I really don't see how that contributes to discussion. I mean you didn't say where and thats a big useless :rolleyes: But then again me posting this is not very useful so I
may aswell say some thing. Would the 37% stuff be a bit OTT? Like would it sputter and stuff. Because using 30% stuff it tends to get pretty hot and just curious is it safe to
use 37%? Well I could always dilute it but that takes effort :p
Efraim_barkbit July 7th, 2003, 09:03 AM

I dont think there will be much difference between 30% and 37%, it is not that much of a difference. I have never used HCl, (Im using battery acid)but I have used 62%
nitric once, and it didnt splatter or anything, just became a little warmer.
BTW, what exactly does OTT stand for? and IMO??
blindreeper July 7th, 2003, 09:26 AM

IIRC - If I Remeber Correctly
WTF - What The Fuck
IMO In My Opinion
IMHO - In My Honest Opinion
SWIM - Someone Who Isn't Me
OTT - Over The Top
OTC - Over The Counter
BTW - By The Way
OT - Off Topic
CBF - Can't Be Fucked
LMAO - Laughing My Ass Off
HED - Hot Electrical Death
Thats all I can think of right now
Back to the HCl, 7% is a big difference. Like if you have 98% H2SO4 in a nitration if you don't have that 7% it won't work (well not nearly as good)
Arthis July 7th, 2003, 12:16 PM

From 30% to 37% is a low difference. Maybe you should try to add your acid more slowly, anyway you shouldn't get any pb with HCl. Use pre-chilled acid.
blindreeper July 7th, 2003, 08:11 PM

Indeed you are correct about prechilling, I have the acetone/H2O2 mix at -20 and the acid at -20 and there is no need for an ice bath if you add it slow enough :p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > copper Acetylide
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View Full Version : copper Acetylide
iron raven June 25th, 2003, 09:36 AM

hello,
i w as readind sam baros power lab website, he stated that Acetyline gas with copper or silver nitrate would make exploisive salts. I have read about this also on rat_bastards
site. My question is can copper nitrate be used in place of silver nitrate? The reason i ask is becoue i have no excess to silver nitrate. Is it posible to get it? if so how? i live in aus
where it is hard to get chems. Would it be posible to get copper filings and place them in an elmyer falsk and pump acytline gas into it? thank you all very much for any info
regarding this matter.
iron raven

Copper acetylide is said to be more sensitive than silveracetylide, apparently so sensitive that it is quite dangerous to handle.
Copper filings in an erlenmeyer flask w on't work. Low surface area and usually this is done using copper salts.

copper salts do not form the double salt w ith the C2H2 as silver salts do. well, as far as i know.
have a look for some photography websites in aus. they often sell silver nitrate for old style photos. also you could just buy some bullion silver (about 6/oz) then dissolve it in
nitric acid to make a silver nitrate solution.
whilst on sam barros page you will have also noticed the equations showing the reaction of a copper salt with C2H2. this shows how it is done.

Excuse my ignorance kingspax but what is bullion silver? At that price I'd be very interested indeed. And one thing iron raven things are not hard to get you just have to know
where to look!;)
0EZ0 June 26th, 2003, 03:58 AM

Bullion = Cast bar or block, usually stamped with the emblem of the company and percentage of purity. Think of it as bars of stock metal.
Current AU market prices (26-Jun-03) for Gold, Silver, Platinum and Palladium found below.
http://ww w.ausbullion.com/price.html
urbana July 17th, 2003, 02:40 PM

In order to obtain copper acetylide you must have a cuprous salt. As long as I know cupric salts w ill not w ork.
The best way to do that:
1. Boil a solution of copper sulphate w ith dextrose and NaOH. Copper sulphate will have a methatesis with soda and produce Copper hidroxide. during formation dextrose w ill
make the reduction to cuprous hidroxide.
2. separate the cuprous hidroxide and rect it with hidrochloric acid, yuou will obtain cuprous chloride.
3. Trough the solution of cuprous chloride you pass a acetylene gas.
4. Cuprous acetylide w ill precipitate.
inFinie July 18th, 2003, 06:27 AM

C2H2 + CuCl ---> Cu2C2 + 2HCl in presence of NH3
This is a test for acetylene, copper acetylide is reddish, silver acetylide is grayish precipitate.
I think NO3's won't work. Because HNO3 is powerful to decompose organic things.
One question: Is copper or silver acetylide organometallic or inorganic?
Definition of organic is having at least one C-H bond i think. Then its not or?
Is acetylide same as carbide?
rooster July 22nd, 2003, 03:30 PM

I have access to Sodium acetylide. Is it possible to make a solution out of this and a solution of e.g. copper nitrate or sulphate, mix the two and get copper acetylide? If so, will
it also work for producing other acetylides?
Bo bo August 1st, 2003, 07:24 PM

What i have read on the subject of copper acetylide is that it is made made from an ammonical solution of cuprous chloride. Isnt cuprous chloride tricky to produce?
MBialy August 3rd, 2003, 10:03 AM

Like you know we have copper(I) acetylide (Cu2C2, brownish-red powder) and copper(II) acetylide (CuC2, black or brownish powder)
Depends w hich one we won t to make w e bubble acetylene through ammonium solution of copper(I) chloride or copper(II) chloride.
CuC2 is more sensitive to friction and strike then Cu2C2, it explodes at 50-70*C.
Silver(I) ac etylide (Ag2C2) is a white powder and it produce is analogous to C u2C2 w e use AgCl.
But when w e w ill use an aqueous solution of silver nitrate we end up with AgNO3xAg2C2 or Ag2C2x6AgNO3 which is less sensitive then Ag2C2
But what happens when w e w ill use Cu(NO3)2 or CuNO3 dissolved in water or ammonia?
In the first case we will properly get Cu2C2 or CuC2 . In the second case CuNO3XCu2C2 or Cu(NO3)2XCuC2 ??
Bo bo August 3rd, 2003, 06:31 PM

Just a thought, surely making any explosive with a silver compound is a tad expensive. I remember my chemistry master back at school collecting our silver nitate solutions
after an experiment, instead of us tipping it down the sink!
kingspaz August 3rd, 2003, 06:37 PM

Bo bo, in my opinion its w orth the money. you don't need much primary so if you spend 20 on silver nitrate then its not like you have to do it again for atleast a year unless
you set off more than a charge every two weeks.

i got a big coin that looks like silver even if i am not sure it is, is there any test to check if is really Ag before i dump in the HNO3?
I washed with HNO3, it became white then darkened when dry, looks like the normal behavious of AgNO3 but, i can't be sure, so i would appreciate any help of a Silver test
with common house chemicals..
Polverone October 11th, 2003, 07:57 PM

Dissolve a few filings from the coin in HNO3. Evaporate the HNO3 (gently) to dryness. Dissolve the colorless solid left in water, and add a few drops of hydrochloric acid or
sodium chloride solution. There should be a white precipitate if it's silver. Or try putting a bit of sulfur on the surface of the coin and gently warming it. There should be a black
stain w here the sulfur was if it's silver.

Thanks, i've thought about S but i do not have available at now, so i was trying to use some egg yolk...that is the first thing containing it that comes into my mind, if there is
someone that knows a better way i w ould rather try instead of crushing an egg!
Thanks

If you really have a silver coin it is most likely valuable, as all silver coins are due to them not being made since >1964. Sorry, I just dont want valuable coinage destroyed.
Nevermore October 12th, 2003, 06:03 AM

it is not really a coin, is like a medal or something, in fact, is too big to be a coin, also doesn't have a back, on the back there is written something in french. in my opinion is not
valuable at all, but i still doubt it is silver, i will try to buy some silver on monday.
CrazyUchemist October 14th, 2003, 12:56 AM

MBialy:
You are wrong in assuming that Silver Nitrate + acetylene = AgNO3xAg2C2
2AgNO3 + C2H2 -----> 2AgC + 2HNO3
I ran an IR of the product (I actually made some for genuine scientific purposes, not to blow up) and there are no N-O stretches. Not only that, but your imperical formula is
totally out of wack. The way you have it w ritten, the silver is in a 3+ oxidation state...yea right.
And anyone that would make CuC2 is just retarded and deserves getting their hand blown off. It's like holding 5 grams of dry ammonia iodide.
~The Crazy Chemist
Wydarr October 14th, 2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by MBialy
Silver(I) ac etylide (Ag2C2) is a white powder and it produce is analogous to C u2C2 w e use AgCl.
But when w e w ill use an aqueous solution of silver nitrate we end up with AgNO3xAg2C2 or Ag2C2x6AgNO3 which is less sensitive then Ag2C2
I would like to know w hat do you found your statement on, because I find it pretty unlikely to be true. First of all silver nitrate is soluble, while silver acetilyde isn't. Second... in
the second formula the explosive would be heavily impurified with the silver nitrate. I have been making silver acetilyde using the aforementioned method (acetylene in
AgNO3(aq)) and it packs a powerful punch. I have never used anything more than 1 gr of this to detonate the most powerful charges I have ever made (top of the line was
something close to 600 grams of AN based explosive).
vulture October 14th, 2003, 07:46 PM

The w ay you have it written, the silver is in a 3+ oxidation state...yea right.
I don't see where you get this oxidation state. He's talking about double salts, you can vary the ratio without changing oxidation states (something you should know as a
chemist).
Furthermore, you've got your formula wrong yourself.
AgC isn't silveracetylide. There is no triple bond between carbon atoms in it. The acetylide ion, C2 2- has a charge of -2 and therefore has to
combine w ith 2Ag ions, forming Ag2C2.
Ag--C*C--Ag
Where * = triple bond.
CrazyUchemist October 14th, 2003, 08:32 PM

I mispoke on the AgNO3xAg2C2...my appologies. But I'm won't retract my statement that this double salt doesn't exsist.
And if you wanna name silver acetylide Ag2C2 versus AgC...w e're just talking semantics now . It's like calling Phosphorus pentoxide P2O5...when it's not really that, it's really
P4O10, but the imperical formula is P2O5.
So no, I don't have my "formula" wrong.
rooster October 16th, 2003, 03:02 PM

Is it possible to make heavy-metal acetylides with sodium acetylide? I have access to this, but will the sodium acetylide react with w ater, adn if not, will it at all dissolve? I can't
find any MSDS on the product.
Also, if a solution of this in some solvent, was added to a silver nitrate solution, would it produce tho double salt, or just the acetylide?
vulture October 16th, 2003, 03:33 PM

You might want to read this:
http://ww w.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/acetylide.htm
And if you wanna name silver acetylide Ag2C2 versus AgC...w e're just talking semantics now . It's like calling Phosphorus pentoxide P2O5...when it's not really that, it's really
P4O10, but the imperical formula is P2O5.
You're comparing oranges with apples here. P2O5 is possible theoretically if you look at the oxidation states, but AgC is not! And I thought you emphasized on oxidation
states....:rolleyes:
What I find even more surprising is that you, claiming to be an experienced chemist, are not well informed about a component you made. Double salts are a well known
phenomenon in chemistry.
CrazyUchemist October 21st, 2003, 07:58 PM

Bash me all you want...but at the end of the day, who get's published for research and who goes to jail for illegally making explosives?
me234 October 22nd, 2003, 01:30 AM

Actually, the double salts gets published, they are a widely know n and accepted phenomena, many scentifically minded and scientifically written books have been published
containing information on these salts, if I have time later I will go to the library and jot down some names and post them here for you to peruse at your own leisure. Sorry man,
vulture is right on this one.
CrazyUchemist October 28th, 2003, 02:27 PM

.
Ollie Snowie November 2nd, 2003, 06:19 AM

Hey, w ho said we were making explosives? We just DREAM about them :).
What w as that last post anyw ay? A FULL STOP! Whatever next?!?
CrazyUchemist - Could you please tell us a bit more about what research you are doing? Start a thread in the Water Cooler perhaps, or do you think that giving away your
research project is making you too traceable? Anyway, if so, what have you got to hide, if you're not "making explosives"? Do you think you will become rich and famous from
it so you won't give anything away? I don't think so...
Also, I would (and probably many other people reading this) actually like to try making copper carbide. I have a chemistry book that actually recommends doing it as a practical,
but not to let it dry out. This w as a SCHOOL chemistry book, and who would be doing such dangerous experiments anyway, let alone w ith kiddies standing around watching. Do
not make up these petty "rules of being" like "you are retarded if you...". You have succeded in pissing off more than one person here...
Also, are you thinking that carbon does not always have a valency of 4 (from CO) and therefore thinking that AgC does exist. Valency of 1, for carbon, maybe not. But silver
forms AgO, so it can have a valency of 2. I'm not entirely sure that he is wrong (but I know that the others are right about Ag2C2)(perhaps these wierd oxidation states are the
cause of its extreme instability) but compare someone w ho has stayed a long time here and appers to know quite a bit about chemistry with someone who thinks that ammonia
(ammoniUM) iodide is explosive (or perhaps he meant NI3).
The only thing I can think of that could justify this mistake is that he doesn't know much English, but it appears that this is not the case.
Goodbye for now to the man who thinks that H2O2 and OH are the same thing.
Anyway, back on topic now .
vulture November 2nd, 2003, 10:45 AM

AgC is not an acetylide because there is no acetylide bond! An acetylide requires 2 carbon atoms bonded together by a triple bond!
Valency is not the holy cow of chemistry, quite the contrary. You have to look at orbitals and energy favorable bonds. For example, carbon and silver couldn't even form a
double bond, because the silver atom is too large to form stable pi bonds.
GreenCoat November 8th, 2003, 07:21 PM

Cuprous Acetylide (Cu2C2) was used in the past as a coating on the bridgwires for commercial compound electric detonators to increase their reliability. It has probably never
been used in military detonators. It is *not* an effective initiating agent, and cannot be used alone as such. It is produced as a red precipitate by bubbling acetylene gas through
an ammoniacal cuprous chloride solution, the latter produced when an ammonium hydroxide solution is added to a suspension of the insoluble cuprous chloride in w ater. The
cuprous chloride is white, and upon adding the ammonium hydroxide, it dissolves because of the formation of the soluble and colorless Cu[(NH3)2]+Cl-. However, the solution
will quickly turn a beautiful deep blue in the presence of air/oxygen because of oxidation of some of the complex to [Cu[(NH3)4]++ . There are many methods of producing
cuprous chloride, but an efficient one can be found at either one of the follow ing references: Keller, Wycoff, Inorganic Synthesis, 2, 1 (1946), or Glemser, Sauer in Handbook of
Preparative Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 2, G. Brauer, Ed. (Academic Press, New York, 2nd ed., 1965) p. 1005. The cuprouse acetylide (Cu2C2) separates out as the monohydrate
which yields the anhydrous salt on drying over CaCl2.
The silver acetylide/nitrate double salt (Ag2C2-AgNO3) is produced, according to A. Stettbacher, Nitrocellulose II, 227-229, 1940, as a w hite precipitate by bubbling acetylene
gas through the follow ing solution: 10g of AgNO3 in 40ml of water and 6ml of HNO3 (sp.gr. 1.4 or the 70% acid). The solution is brought to a boil before the acetylene gas is
passed through. (Obviously, turn off all heat sources before turning on the acetylene!). The solution is allowed to cool and filtered. The double salt is a more powerful initiator
than Ag2C2 alone, and has the advantage of being less sensitive to shock/friction. The double salt is also far less sensitive than cuprous acetylide.
__________________________________________________ ___________
Quote from rooster:
I have access to Sodium acetylide. Is it possible to make a solution out of this and a solution of e.g. copper nitrate or sulphate, mix the two and get copper acetylide? If so, will
it also work for producing other acetylides?
__________________________________________________ ___________
No. Sodium acetylide decomposes on contact with water to form a solution of sodium hydroxide and acetylene gas. You would precipitate mostly cupric hydroxide, maybe a little
cupric acetylide, which is not the desired product. You *can* use it as a convenient source for acetylene gas, but sodium acetylide should be added in very small quantities to
water as the reaction is quite vigorous.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Quote from Bo bo:
What i have read on the subject of copper acetylide is that it is made made from an ammonical solution of cuprous chloride. Isnt cuprous chloride tricky to produce?
__________________________________________________ ____________
Yes. The tricky part is to use the solution as soon as possible as it will quickly absorb oxygen and be oxidized to cupric chloride.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Quote from urbana:
In order to obtain copper acetylide you must have a cuprous salt. As long as I know cupric salts w ill not w ork.
The best way to do that:
1. Boil a solution of copper sulphate w ith dextrose and NaOH. Copper sulphate will have a methatesis with soda and produce Copper hidroxide. during formation dextrose w ill
make the reduction to cuprous hidroxide.
2. separate the cuprous hidroxide and rect it with hidrochloric acid, yuou will obtain cuprous chloride.
3. Trough the solution of cuprous chloride you pass a acetylene gas.
4. Cuprous acetylide w ill precipitate.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Another good synthesis for the cuprous salt, but as MBialy points out: "CuC2 is more sensitive to friction and strike then Cu2C2, it explodes at 50-70*C". The cuprous salt will
explode at 120*C. So cupric acetylide *can* be made but is more friction and temperature sensitive.
blindreeper: Silver bullion comes in the form of small bars or coins as others pointed out. You can frequently find it in coin shops and antique stores. I w ould try there first before
buying it online or through a bank. Make sure it says "99.9% Pure" on it. You wouldn't want to use a silver 'coin' that contains, for instance, 90% silver and 10% copper,
especially if you are trying to make Ag2C2-AgNO3.
ProdigyChild August 25th, 2004, 09:25 AM

I tried to prepare some Cu2C2 last night and it w as a nightmare!
I converted CuCl2 solution left from etching copper to CuCl by adding aluminium powder to it (voilent reaction - careful!) until the green color disappeared. Adding further
aluminum at that stage still reacts violently, precipating copper.
So I ended up with a hot solution of CuCl in water with impurities consisting of HCl AlCl3 and a copper precipate.
Decanted the clear solution and cooled it. The white CuCl precipated rather quickly. I washed it with destilled water.
The CuCl is fairly unstable in the presence of air. Within a few minutes it starts to turn green or brown (Cu2+ ).
From some waste solutions (containing much Cu2+ in addition to Cu+ ) I tried to produce CuC2 or Cu2C2 by simply bubbling C2H2 (welding gas) through it. The solution
immediately turns dark (blue/black/violet-mix), no chance to look through.
= > even without the presence of NH3 you get a precipate.

However, after filtering and drying, this showed no explosive properties at all. No violent decomposition either in conc. HCl nor in NH4OH. Shouldn't the actetylide decompose in
strong acid? I suppose I got Cu2O/CuO mix. Or is even a double salt conceivable like Cu2C2*CuCl, that precipates by bubbling C2H2 in, but is not explosive at all??
Next try!
I put some quite pure CuCl in destilled water. After adding a bit of NH4OH the white crystals turned yellow! Haven't read this before. Any ideas? Adding HCl turns them white
again.
OK, I ignored the color and added just more NH4OH (10% solution). After much stirring and adding quite a lot ammonia the crystals dissolved.
Bubbling C2H2 through it darkened the solution immediately, how ever, color was now red-brown, the precipate is also brow n. Reminds somehow to rust or Fe3(OH)3.
Bad property of this stuff was its spongyness. After filtering I had a water-rich brown mud. After drying in the oven, only few residue was left.
That brown powder has explosive properties.
I made several runs and each run produced a product different in color and different in explosive properties. Sometimes it explodes with a flash and leaves heavy carbon traces,
sometimes it's only sparkling. Heating up improves sensitivity. In the oven, I'm sure it w ould do one single BANG.
Filling a bridgewire straw detonator (3mm diameter) gave definitely a hard bang and an awful mess of carbon powder :D
The electric conductivity of my product is zero (in excess of M-Ohms for a 1 cubic mm crystal). I had expected CuxC2 to be conductive. My dream of an easy initializer without a
bridge wire is gone now :(
All in all, I don't like the Copper Acetylide so far.

- difficult to produce, hard to dry
- unreliable to produce (different color, different sensitivity)
- not a fine powder but nasty lumps of different size, hard and dangerous to grind.
- lazy at room temperature,, could be more sensitive to fire.
Anyone had similar experiences?
freaky_frank August 25th, 2004, 12:35 PM

I tried to make it once with copper nitrate solution, and there didn't form any copper acetylide since it all dissolves immediately back into solution
ProdigyChild August 28th, 2004, 08:03 PM

I tried to use the Cu2C2 I produced recently for detonators. Rather disappointing. At least without a rigid casing (l like theses McDonald straw s :D ) it's quite unuseable. I did not
manage to set off MHN with it, not even when mixed with the Cu2C2.
I don't want any metal pieces in my ass, so I WILL NOT try metal casings.
Cu2C2 is not worth the effort in my opinion. I stop producing this and for now stick to AP as initializer.
Dr_Pind September 4th, 2004, 10:52 AM

I have tried making Cu2C2 tw ice. The first time i made the CuCl by heating CuCl2 with copper w ire in an acidic solution. When no more copper dissolved I poured the solution
into cold w ater. This yielded white CuCl. Unfortunately the CuCl w as quickly oxidized by the air, giving it a brownish colour on the surface. I mixed the CuCl with a strong
ammonia solution and bubbled acethylene through it. This resulted in the formation of a very dark brown precipitate of Cu2C2. Unfortunately the experiment w as conducted on
a very small scale, and almost didn't yield any product. Since the whole procedure w as rather difficult and time consuming, I abbandoned Cu2C2.
But then about year ago I decided to try again. this time I used copper pow der instead of wire in the production of the CuCl. I got this powder by putting steel woll into a
saturated solution of CuSO4. This time the procedure went a lot smoother than the last time, since I used larger ammounts of chemicals, and because I managed to protect the
CuCl from the oxygen in the atmosphere. The finished product was rather easy to ingite by impact and by naked flame. It didn't show much sensitivity to friction however. I
tried confining it in a cardboard tube and igniting it with a fuse. It didn't even sound like black powder w hen fired. It simply shot out the plugs used for confining the ends of the
tube giving a pathetic "POP". I really can't find any use of this material, and the fact that it is very hard and time consuming to produce removes it completely from my list of
usefull explosives. The only use for it would be in percussion caps or similar igniters.
Bugger September 4th, 2004, 05:36 PM

Cuprous acetylide, being a covalent compound of a triply-bonded group, would be expected to be explosive by analogy with the heavy-metal covalent azides (N3-) of metals
like Cu, Pb, Ag, Hg, although less so. The carbon content would make acetylides more inflammable, requiring the presence of air, rather than explosive in the absence of air,
unlike azides.
Bugger.

Could addition of an oxidizer improve it's properties?
chlorates and perchlorates aren't compatible, but w hat about nitrates?
Nerro October 6th, 2004, 04:57 PM

acetylide is extremely instable so I don't think it would be compatible with any oxiders.
ProdigyChild October 7th, 2004, 12:46 PM

Improving properties by adding oxidizers? No. The only property one expects from a primary explosive is ease of detonation. If that stuff is too lazy to DETONATE you can't
improve that by adding an oxidizer.
Powder mixtures never detonate, do they?

Only if the covalent bonds in the oxidizer are broken by the shockwave I guess. (This is the old "does flashpowder detonate" topic). Don't want to start another one of those. I
was merely thinking that addition of an oxidizer w ould insure easier DTD. How ever the process of adding the oxidizer would probably be very dangerous.

You are correct about the improvement and nitrate w ill work if finely divided, consider the differences between silver acetylide, and the acetylide/nitrate double salt, or the
mixtures of fulminate and chlorate that used to be used in detonators. For those people that dont think nitrate mixtures can detonate look at yellow powder (more of a solid
solution), or Rashig's w hite blasting powder or nanosilicon/nitrate.
As has been pointed out, the incorperation is by far best done chemically though and where double salts dont exist I suspect the improvement in peformance is vastly
outweighed by the increase in risk. For anyone outside the explosives manufacturing industry that is.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Napta (liquid), AN, AL, Sodium Hypochlorate... Archive File
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Bubba
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From:
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Was looking through a Ragnar Benson book (Better cheaper Homeade C4) and came across the recipe for: Naphtha (liquid), AN, powdered Al, calcium hypochlorite (pool
treatment chem) and it says its about 40% of TNT. Anyone else seen/tried this? Just looked interesting since like HMTD and AP it is just easily obtainable off the shelf type
stuff.
(Please excuse the spelling of the chemicals in the title, I edited the msg to show the correct spelling.)
[This message has been edited by Bubba (edited March 02, 2001).]
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 770
From: Sk. Canada
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Bubba Would you be willing to scan in that book?
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Bubba
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From:
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AB: Not a problem. It'd be about 94meg though. Unless you just want that one chapter. The whole book is called: " New and Improved C4: Beter than ever Recipes for 1/2
the money and Double the fun by Ragnar benson"
I just need a ftp to post it on. I can upload at T1 speed BUT I cant host a ftp cuz I am behind a firewall with 14 rotating IP address's. Really bites!
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
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I've seen it, in a movie.
In "Terminator", they called it "plastic explosive" but that's not right.
And I recall they used solid mothball as the fuel (naphthalene).
[This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited March 02, 2001).]
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have the information all wrong. You add aluminum and your in big trouble. And it says it is equivilant to slightly less than 40% dynamite.
I have already scanned the book and i might put it up in the library. mabe that is. BTW, the whole book is about 4 megs scanned. Look in the thread under "Calcium
Hypochlorite Naptha". I have posted results of tests of this explosive in the thread. Mabe do some research fist and dont post incorrect information. The info is right in front of
you if you have the book. Go through the trouble of thouroughly looking through the formula before you post Incorrect information and kill someone. In the title of the threas
you even put "sodium hypochlorite". Im tempted to lock this thread, but then you have people whining and complaining.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lam pblack as a fuel/sensitizer - Archive
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c0deblue
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Posts: 229
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Haven't seen it in awhile, but lampblack used to be freely available in ha rdware and paint stores for use as a shading pigm ent.
Fairly cheap, but one of the blackest, m ost finely divided powders I've ever come across. Ought to be a fair fuel, since like
charcoal it's the product of incom plete com b u s t i o n . I ' v e s e e n o b s c u r e r e f e r e n c e s t o l a m p b l a c k a s a c o m ponent in certain
e x p l o s i v e m ixtures, but (given it's m icroscopic particle size) how effective would it be as a sensitizer for something as
insensitive as AN? Anything on the order of alum inum powder possibly? It certainly would be cheaper and m o r e e a s i l y o b t a i n e d .
ezekiel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 110
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Alm ost anything will do that: it was shown that dog shit could sensitise am m o n i u m n i t r a t e .
If i had to guess I wo uld say odds are in your favour.
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Ezekiel
' T h i n g s b a d b e g u n m a k e s t r o n g t h e m selves by ill'
HMT D Factory
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 220
From :
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L a m pblack is consist of atom -sized carbon m olecules (unless they block together)
So that would make outstanding fuel where charcoal is needed. Aluminum gives out m ore heat compares to carbon so it might
not sensitize AN as m uch as a lum inum d o e s .
W hat did the d o g e a t ?
ezekiel
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 110
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hahahaha.
A healthy variety of re-constituted m eat and dairy products of co urse.
m y point was that in it's pure form a m m onium nitrate is as inert as it gets. Alm sot anything will raise its sensitivity.
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Ezekiel
' T h i n g s b a d b e g u n m a k e s t r o n g t h e m selves by ill'
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
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there was a explosive called a krem ite that was used in the early 1950s that was a m ixture of lamp black or coaldust and
a m monium nitrate but it was replaced by the m ore powerful anfo mix in the late 1950s.
DarkAngel
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Posts: 591
From : ?
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Isn`t that the same as "Am monpulver"?
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--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bom b s / E x p l o s i v e s a n d Hom e m a d e W eapons!!,,,Plus a <<Forum >>!!!
jin
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Posts: 111
From : u k
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t h e r e s s o m e i n f o o n a k r e m i t e o n t h i s p a g e i n t h e a m monium nitrate bit.
www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/High/high.htm
[This message has been edited by jin (edited March 11, 2001).]
blackadder
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Do blasting companies always use ANFO (and other NH4NO3/sensitiser m ixes), or do they try detonating NH4NO3 by itself?
That m ust re quire a chubby detonator.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
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T h a t l a m p b l a c k o f f u m e is very good for Black powder/ KClO3-S-C-CaCO3 mix /and for LO X or N2O4-C exp losives!!!!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > NaC lO3 + S + C - Archive File
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the_wingm a n
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W hat would be the products of this rea ction?
Or d o e s s b k now the ideal mixture of these components for producing a low explosive?
Plz don't tell me not to m ix sulfur with chlorates.
blackadder
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 313
From : L o n d o n
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T h i s l o o k s l i k e N a C lO3 black powder, the produ cts could b e s o m e t h i n g l i k e N a C l, SO , SO2, CO 2 , C O .
I'm not particularly good at ch emistry, so m y results could be unreliable.
W hy do you want to know, anyway?
P.S. You shouldn't m ix sulfur with chlorates
the_wingm a n
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If I know the products of the reaction I'll be able to calculate the ideal mixture.
Mr C ool
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There will be loads of different things, so you'll have to do it through experimentation.
Normal gunpowder, for exam ple, produces:
SO2
CO
CO2
K2CO 3
CH4
H2
KHCO 3
K2SO4
and a few other things, not in that order.
PHILOU Zrea lone

Freq uent Poster
Posts: 479
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I have already m a d e t h o s e c a lculations and producing NaCl, CO2, CO , SO2 or KCl, CO2, C O SO2; guess what I got the fam o u s
m ix ratio of the m ost powerful chlorate explosive (deflagrating readily in the open in less than 3g and deto nating when
confined (I'm sure of it because in an enclosed room where it exploded from a flam e - f u s e , I o n l y f o u n d p i e c e s o f 7 m m * 7 m m
( m a x i m u m size of the schrapnels). The walls of the iron tube where 5mm thick, lenght 25cm , diam eter 3cm . . . . I g o t t h e s a m e
schrapnels results with dry hydrazine nitrate and a detonator of 5g silver acetylide nitrate/nickel nitrate hydrazinate (50/50
m ix)....thus yes it has detonated.
The mix has to be done with activated carbon dust (very fine) otherwise you don't have the fast burning effect:
W ith normal carbon d ust when m aking a fuse with the p owder, it goes like 1s/1cm while with active carbon, the fuse went boom
when you light it up (less than 1s/40cm).
So what's the m ix, yo u will say: easy, by a pure accident it is the sam e a s t h e a v e r a g e b l a c k p o w d e r K C l O 3 / S / C 7 5 g /12.5g/
12.5g...
This powder is very brisant and is friction, static-electricity, acidity and am m o n i a s e n s i t i v e ; t h u s a g o o d i d e a i s t o a d d s o m e
C a C O 3 (2%) and not to try to pack as much as possible in a pip e!!!!!The activ carbon also catches gasses like ClO2 and thus
ensure a little more security!!!! NaClO 3 is hygroscopic what KClO3 is not thus KClO3 is m uch m o re ef f ec t i ve but a l s o mu ch more
powerfull and sensitive....
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the_wingm a n
Freq uent Poster
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From :
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Thanks very much for this inform ation!
But where can I get activated charcoal?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From : England
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P e t s h o p s - a s a n a q u a r i u m filter medium.
the_wingm a n
Freq uent Poster
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W ow, pet-shops are even m ore useful than I thought. I get m y H2O 2 fro m t h e m , too.
blackadder
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From : L o n d o n
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A n y s e e m ing ly innocent shop can be used to your advantage. A skill in life, is to be able to use things to your advantage.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Stabilising NI3 - Archive File
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nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
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Ran across a site that details using agar (like gelatin) to stabilize NI3. They could transport it 40 miles with no explosion. But the material was still explosive after drying.
Here's a short GIF movie of exploding NI3.
http://genchem.chem.wisc.edu/demonstrations/Movies/ni3.gif
For the actual movie, go to http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft/CCA/CCA0/MOVIES/NI3IOD.mov
http://www.acornusers.org/education/Thesis/TOC.html
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Demolition
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Posts: 159
From: Australia
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Does anyone know the VOD for NI3.I've looked around but I can't seem to find an answer.
Demolition
c0deblue
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"The use of sound as a detonator"
Now this opens up a whole new range of possibilities for parents the world over - "I warned you what would happen the next time you played your stereo too loud . . ."
Seriously though, the relationship between the resonant frequency of a mass of NI3 and its explosive sensitivity really got the wheels turning. This relationship suggests it might
be possible using principles of harmonics and acoustic focusing to "tailor" the properties of a detonating charge to favor the resonant frequency of a bulk explosive (or that of its
crystal component), thereby achieving reliable detonation with a minimum initiating charge. Granted that NI3 is extraordinarily sensitive, but the principle should be valid across
the board.
Interesting paper on desensitizing NI3, but would I fool with this stuff? Not on your life!
Interesting movie too, but I have to wonder how they were even able to place the NI3 on those filter papers when even a feather touch is sufficient to set the stuff off.
FadeToBlackened
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Posts: 201
From: Hell
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im pretty sure they put it on there wet and let it dry. It aint quite as sensitive when wet.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
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I just had an idea:
Place a quantity of NI3 on a bottle of a chemical that is highly reactive with iodine.
Such chemical reacting with iodine to form either toxic gas or burning flame.
When the NI3 explodes, it shatters the bottle, the 2 chemicals mix, and a burst of fire ignites. Of course, if the bottle where filled with NG instead....
Oh, BTW, the NI3 was made in the very filter papers it's exploded in.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > U nwashed AP more sensitive? - Archive
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Teck
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I m a d e s o m e AP and before washing it I took a sm all b atch of AP and dried it out. And washed the rest.
Then I tested both (washed and unwashed AP)
with a ham m er on a m etal anvil. The unwashed AP with acid sounded MO RE powerful than washed. (The washed batch was
washed with 5 gallons of water.)
Did anyone notice or expirem ent with unwashed AP?
green beret
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From : Austra lia
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Y e s , I h a v e f o u n d t h a t u n w a s h e d A P i s m ore unstable than dried AP. I th ink its because of the acid.
Foodos
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a n d i t h a s b e e n d i s c u ssed in ANY discussion on AP
blackadder
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I think he's asking th e q u e s t i o n
"is unwashed AP, m ore powerful than washed AP?"
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y b l a ckadder (edited March 05, 2001).]
Teck
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I m a s k i n g i f u n w a s h e d ap is more powerful than washed.
fowkes.l July 1st, 2003, 02:11 AM

I b e l i e v e u n w a s h e d A P t o b e m o r e s e n sitive.
A b o u t a n h o u r a g o 0 . 5 g r a m s o f u n w a s h e d A P d e t o n a t e d i n m y fingers. I did not bum p or light it, it was in a small plastic
c a p s u l e u s e d f o r m edicine, I was carrying it to another bench when all of a sudden it detonated in m y left h a n d .
T h e d a m a g e t o m y hand is minim al, m y middle finger and left thum b are ripped open in the centre, alot of blood was coming
out until i bandaged up. Luckily the shock from the blast has taken away any feeling in my fingers and im u n a i b l e t o f e e l a n y
pain . I hope this is not perma nent. Also it has been about an hour and my ears are still ringing, m y right e ar is causing m e
trouble.
L e s s o n n u m ber one: DONT BE LAZY, SPEND THE EXTR A 15 MINUTES WASHING YOUR AP.
I usually wash m y AP but was in a rush to get some.
I b e l i e v e I a m very luck to still have m y fingers.

dude reply back and tell us whether yo ur fingers are ok. I have not yet m ade Ap but i will be m aking about a half a film
canister of it in a few days. W hat is the safest way to transport a nd store it so i dont blow an arm off? how m uch dam age would
about a film canister do to m e if i was wearing gardening goves, ear protection, eye protection, and held the film canister with
a two foot grabing device.
sorry about this question but im kinda scared of this shit!
the largest explosive i have m a d e a n d u s e d s o far is a huge ste e l p i p e b o m b w i t h d o u b l e b a s e s m o k e l e s s p o w d e r a n d a b o u t
1/2 gram of picric acid in bag inside bomb.(very nice ex plosion)
fowkes.l July 1st, 2003, 04:25 AM

My fingers are very sore, I have now recieved m y feeling back and they are throbbing with pain.
Now as for a film canister of AP, your looking at 10-20 gram s correct!! If you were to where no protection at all you would have
nothing from your wrist down. 0.5 gram s went off in m y hand, i was lucky not to loose a finger, I have seen this sam e c h a r g e
d o a l o t o f d a m age to empty softdrink can.
If your charge went off in your hand and you were wearing garde ning gloves, I doubt very much if you would still have a hand,
a gardening glove would offer little help. you will see wh en you set your AP off that nothing stands in the ro ad of it. Your 2 foot
e x t e n s i o n m i g h t s a v e y o u , a l t h o u g h y o u m a y h a v e m inor burns and pieces of pla stic from the film canister stuck in your face.
Also your extesnion will be twisted up.
I think you shouldn't worry about your safety devices (excludes ear prote ction and strong gloves), AP is a little sensitive. Stu pid
p e o p l e m a k e i t l o o k e x t r e m ely sensitive by stu ffing around with it. If your AP has been washed it needs a solid hit from an
obje ct for it to detonate. Also if you are nervous do not use extension yo u m i g h t s h a k e l i k e m e and drop it.This is the first
tim e it's ever gone off by accident (due to not washing m y AP). Always m ake sure you wash your AP, always.
W hen i first started m aking AP, I was scared like you, I was so scared that m y hand was shaking loading it into sealed straws.
The best way to approach it, is, without being scared just be cautious and think sm art.
The best way to transport AP is for it to be wet. I wrote an article on AP's sensitivity when wet, It wo n't detonate from flam e or
from s h o c k o f h a m m er. So to transport AP, slig htly wet it with a spray bottle (m ist spray) until it forms little clum p s . Y o u c a n
use acetone (dries quicker) or water.
Store you AP in a plastic container that has a peel off lid. Keep it in a cool place.
e m ail m e at leighfowkes111@hotm ail.com (NOT MY REAL NAME) for any m ore info (basics)
s o m e tim e s w h e n y o u a s k q u e s t i o n s l i k e y o u r s y o u g e t i n t r o u b l e , b e s t t o e m a i l m e .

Maybe the -O-O- link, being very electronegative, has particular affinities with H+ protons, and as the peroxyde bonds are
often unstable, the acidity causes a destruction resulting in lower stability. This would mea n slightly basic AP is far m o r e s t a b l e
t h a n a c i d o n e . U s e a l i t t l e e x c e s s o f s o d i u m bicarbonate then.

Thankyou for the reply it helped alot. Getting p lastic in m y face or a m a n g l e d 2 f o o t e x t e n s i o n i s n o t h i n g c o m p a r e d t o a
m issing arm !
I a m not that nervous Id never shake. Lets not say "nervous" IM just super careful. And I am goin g to m a k e l e s s ( a b o u t a p i l e
the size of one of those lil foam earplugs)
Thanks again- Halo
spelunker July 1st, 2003, 12:06 PM

you also wan t to mak e sure that during manufacturing you m ake the finest cristals you can, the crystal size alone can go a
long way in determining sencetivity. if you were able to after manufacturing load it with a press so that the crystals pretty m uch
are not there anym ore, it would be very stable due to sm all cristal size and no air gaps. don't do this with ap unless it has
been washed with the baking soda ans is still wet. i've droped (as sencitivity test) a film canister packed from the height of
a r o u n d 2 . 5 m , didn't go off. rem e m ber, don't be lazy, take safety precautions
knowledgehungry July 1st, 2003, 01:34 PM

W here were you when you dropped it:confused: I would not want to be anywhere near a film canister of AP. 2.5 M is far too
close if it went off, the blast chest alon e would suck neverm ind shrapnel from whatever it landed on. And also just because one
batch was safe from 2.5 M dont expect all batches to act the same, that is one of the biggest prob lem s with AP, the varying
sensitivity/power of each batch. I think that is why m a n y p e o p l e p r e f e r H M T D t h e r e i s o n l y o n e p o l y m e r I I R C .
Anthony July 1st, 2003, 03:28 PM

I you press your wet AP you'll get a solid cake, then what? Sm ash it up?
A 2ft pole wo uld likely save you from anoything but m in or injury. You might get a bruised hand from the shockwave travelling
down the gra bbers sh aft. But unless th e shaft or otehr grabber parts were metal, your visor/gloves/clothing should stop the
worst of any pepperin g.
Halo July 1st, 2003, 04:42 PM

Btw, Halo has now left the building

Definitely Halo, m a k e s e a r c h e s with the search engine before yo u post. It's going to get you straig ht out of there.
A N / a c e t o n e m i x s e e m s to be just a little m ore powerful than ANFO, but I don't think AP will detonate it. Rather you would need
a HE booster, maybe APAN if you want to stick to simple explosives.
Since AN is just salts (NH4+ + NO3-), acetone won't m a k e r e a l l y a d e c o m position but rather a dissolution. you gain in power
b e c a u s e a c e t o n e i s m ore flam m a b l e t h a n d i e s e l .
vulture July 1st, 2003, 05:47 PM

Som eone here said som ething about basic AP being safer.
Not true! Peroxy bonds are far m ore unstable in basic environm ent! They are also not very stable in highly acidic en vironm ent,
but atleast m ore stable than in basic environment.
T r y a d d i n g s o m e d i l u t e d H C l t o H 2 O 2 a n d t h e n t r y a d d i n g s o m e d i l u t e d N a O H t o H 2 O 2. You'll quickly see what I m e a n .
Arthis July 2nd, 2003, 03:30 AM

This was m e :( , than ks to correct it. This m eans that AP should be washed with lots of distilled water, witho ut using sodium
bicarbonate, to be m ore stable ? At least for use in detonators, ie in m etal casings, it m ay be better to have a sligh t basicity to
avoid the corrosion of the m etal .[?].
vulture August 19th, 2003, 05:59 PM

I t h i n k a n e x c e s s o f s o d i u m carbonate would be bad. Just m a k e s u r e y o u don't go over pH 7,5 and you sho uld be fine.
Cyclonite August 20th, 2003, 04:35 AM

How long do you plan o n k e e p i n g t h e A P i n a m etal container? Y ou would not ben efit from k e e p i n g i t m o r e o f a b a s e p H
User Name S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2003, 12:02 AM

I h a v e s t o r e d A P f o r 1 m o n t h b e f o r e i n a z i p l o c k b a g g i e . i stored it in a metal pan for about 2 weeks too.
no problems :)
Arthis S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2003, 10:16 AM

If you don't have eve r had problem s with your AP doesn't m ean you'll ne ver have . I usually store m y AP for a long tim e
(several m onthes), but trying a m etal pan is a bit like russian roulette. A m inimum precaution is required.
Did you read RTPB ?
DBSP S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2003, 10:18 AM

Yet....
No seriously I don't think that there are any problem s storing AP as long as it is carefully prepared and neutralized. Some of it
will of course sublime during storage reducing the am m o u n t o f A P a s t h e m onths pass but I don't belive it gets less stable.
The only thing you need to make shure is that the container it is stored in hasn't got any lid or anything else the sublimed AP
could get caught in and cause the handling to become dangeorus. Things like m etal pans can't be considered good because of
the risk of static electricity and the great risk of dangeorus shrapnel if it would accidently go off, glass is no good either. A
sim ple paper bag could be concidered close to ideal because of the low risk of shrapnel and static electricity. Even better if
stored at a cool place where no one can accidentally get to it.
User Name S e p t e m b e r 9 th, 2003, 11:20 AM

I o n l y u s e d a m etal pan as a test to see if AP would become unstaible in it. It was kept outside away from anything but i
covered it wiht a plastic bag.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > nasty reaction - Archive File
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shady m utha
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From : austra lia
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T r i e d t o m a k e aceton e peroxide with 5 0% h2o2 100% acetone and 1835g/litre sulfuric acid.Anyway the second the sulfuric acid
t o u c h e d t h e c o o l e d p e r o x i d e a c e t o n e m i x i t s p a t t h e a c i d o u t , m a d e a l o u d h i s s i n g noise and let out a white cloud of stinky
shit som e stayed in the jar an d had to be blown out the j a r . W h a t d o y o u t h i n k h a p p e n e d ?
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
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I a s s u m e this is your first tim e m a k i n g
AP with sulfuric acid beacuse that is the nature of that acid, it dosent like being m ixed with m uch of anythin g. and what you
experienced was acid splatter and the fum es were just sulfuric acid fum es. I use a syrnge and a piece of tuning not to get hit
by splattering acid. next tim e ad it more slowly
HMT D Factory
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Y e s , H 2 S O 4 gives out a lot of heat when mixed with water.
Y o u s h o u l d a l s o k n o w o n l y H 2 S O 4 should be poured into water, not water poured into H2SO 4.
shady m utha
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Posts: 149
From : austra lia
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Yes it is m y first time with sulfuric.I also tried adding acetone to just sulfuric acid this caused the m ixture to boil alm ost
im m ediately.
Morrigan
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Sulfuric acid dehydrates everything even if there is no direct H2O present it will break up the molecules in o rder to steal H2O
releasing a lot of hea t, what you experienced is this dehydration , it m i g h t e v e n b r e a k u p a c e t o n e . I t a l s o d o e s t h i s t o s k i n ,
(resulting in blisters), and lots of other m ateria ls. Since you use 50% H2O 2 I wou ld advise you to dissolve the H2SO4 to a
c o n c e n t r a t i o n o f a b o u t 3 0 % , t h a t b i t o f water is n o t g o i n g to disturb the reaction. If y o u u s e t h e r e c i p e f r o m M e g a s s ite you
can easily calculate the am o u n t o f d i l u t e d H 2 S O 4 n e e d e d .
If you put the acid into the wa ter and not the water into the acid it will still splatter but the splattering will be mainly water and
not the concentrated acid saving you a lot of m ess...
PHILOU Zrea lone

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H2SO 4 conc. react with water (and what is H2O 2 50% but 50% water with 50% oxygenated water????) by releasing h eat.
As a m atter of facts: peroxydes are unstable at high tem p (here in m y lab at work we kee p the 50% H2O2 in the fridge at 10-
4C)....thus no doubt your H2O 2 has been destroyed by the heat! Also aceton is a very volatile solvent with a low boiling point...
a mix with water heated can boil near 60C, thus increasing the b ubbling of your solution.....you lucky bastard that O 2 liberated
a n d a c e t o n v a p o u r s d i d n ' t m e t a f l a m me other wise ......BO O O M g a s e x p l o s i o n ! ! ! ! !
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nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From : G u e s s
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You should dilute your peroxide with 1 or 2 times its volume of water because 50% is overkill and just a waste of peroxide.
Once you get over 20 odd percent, any higher just gives decreasing return in yeild.
And add your H2SO4 a drop at a tim e with stirring in between ad ditions with cooling the whole time.
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HMT D Factory
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From :
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!!!!!
How do you m a n a g e d t o t y p e t h e f o o t n o t e s , n b k ?
zaibatsu
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From : England
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By typing H<*sub>2SO<*sub>4 but without the stars, I had to put them there to stop it thinking I meant H2SO4
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Visit m e at www.surf.to/eliteforum
[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited March 10, 2001).]
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From : G u e s s
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Since HTML code is allowed, you could do all so rts of things with your posts. Using for lowe ring type or for
raising it.
< pre > allows
You to draw ----- / \ | @ @| Faces \ / & \{}/ other \/ figures

Don't forget that all tags have to be closed using the /. Like < pre > is closed with < /pre >. No spaces in the tags of course.
But there are other things that you could do that won't be tolerated like using fram es, blin king, scrolling, or rolling text, etc.
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[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y n b k 2 0 0 0 ( e dited Ma rch 10, 2001).]
HMT D Factory
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Thanks. But, argh, why it has to be such an hassle...anyway.
Teck
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From :
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The only acid I use in m a k i n g m y AP is sulfuric from old car batteries and it never splattered or reacted weird. The
concentration on it is like 40% or som ething and the AP m ixture has a faster reaction than using HCL Acid. At least thats what I
think.
I h a d a d r e a m I detonated 1/2 film canister of AP in m y back yard and m y neighbors car alarm went off even thoug h m y
nearest neighbor lives about 400ft from m e.
Imperial July 26th, 20 03, 09:3 0 AM
SW IM has tried m aking some AP with sulfuric acid, as well as hydrochloric acid.
For a newbie, SW IM recom mends the latter, for it splatters less, doesn't raise the temperature as m uch, and generally isn't as
dangerous.
The first tim e SWIM used H2SO4 it raised the temperature too m uch, and SW I M e n d e d u p h a v i n g
to cool his acid/acetone mixtu re (after cleaning up the nasty splatter!) SW IM was more careful nex t time, a n d a d d e d t h e a c i d
slowly and cooled the acid and acetone beforehand. SW IM had to cool the actual reaction a lot more, but he ended up with a
greater yield than with the HCl. So SW IM suggests that your first few tim es you use HCl just to ge aquainted with the process,
m aybe practice the cooling too, and then m ake it with the sulfuric acid.
yt2095 July 26th, 20 03, 12:1 6 PM

the only problem associated with with AP manufacuring AFAIK are these;
H2SO 4: if your AP is not com pletely neutralised Sulphuric acid will not evaporate in the sam e way that HCl(aq) will, leaving your
product npotentialy unstable.
HNO 3: will evaporate in the same way as HCL but risks m aking acetone nitrate (though I`ve never had a problem with it
b e c a u s e o f t h e c o n c s I u s e a n d Am monia to neutralise it)
HCL(aq): is favoured, but I personaly use H2SO4 as it`s cheap/plentifull and I spend A LOT of tim e neutralising it (a proccess
NOT to be skim ped on)
t h e s e a r e m y O W N f i n d i n g s a n d a r e a l s o e c h o e d on certain threads here as well, in fact I beleive it was Kingspaz that told m e
about the acetone nitrate potential.
H2SO 4 (for AP use) is never m ore than 60%, that avoid s all the spattering and lo wers the inevitable heat g enerated.
Enjoy your product :)
Anthony July 26th, 20 03, 12:5 8 PM

W h e n u s i n g H 2 S O 4 in AP synth, I always diluted it to ~30% and cooled b efore use. It's silly to let it hydrolise during the
reaction when you will have to deal with the heat, when you can "rem ove" that heat before h a n d .

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Sgt_Starr
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Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Hey Guys,
I've finally gotten the gutts up to make AP and I was hoping you all could give me any tips/cautions and if anyone knows where to get The chemicals (I'm on the eastern sea
board) And another thing....Can I just use a plastic bucket and a couple mason jars to make it? maybe I can find a glass sturrer and a thermometer somwhere.((Found 10%
Hydrochloric acid in wal-mart the other day...will that work ?))
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"Oh Sh".::BOOM:(later
"it"
[This message has been edited by Sgt_Starr (edited March 11, 2001).]
CragHack
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Posts: 606
From:
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1) any glass jar will do
2) a 10% HCl solution will work the acid
is only a catalyst
3) you can find 3% H2O2 in any drug stor
4) you can get acetone in a hardware store
just ask for a paint solvent, or
something to clean your pain brushes with
remember to place the reaction vessel in an ice bath or 'frig so the reaction is cold throughout the entire thing. filter the AP when the reaction is done. WASH it by running it
under water. store the AP in a glass jar with water in it. remember that AP reacts with metals so don't put AP in any metal container.
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...
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Thanks! How do I get the Crystals off of the wall of the jar?(if you dont mind...could you explains what happens when the chems are mixed. you said the acid is only a
catalyst what does that meen? does the acid take the atoms apart so that they can rearrange?)
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"it"
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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when i say the acid is a catalyst, what i mean is that the H+ ions fill gaps between the molecules that make AP so they don't have to travel as far, thus speeding up the
reaction and making it so not as much energy is needed to complete it. (this also transltes into a faster reaction time.)
You can get the crystals off the walls of the glass jar by just filling the jar with water and dumping it out. over and over again untill you are satisfied with the amount of AP you
are actually going to lose. i would suggest filling the jar with water and washing your AP with it, (kind kills two birds with one stone.)
now assuming you are using a 10% HCl solution, 100% acetone and 3% H2O2, you will only observe a slight increase in temp when mixing all of the various chemicals
together. in time, as the reaction takes place, you will begin to see tiny white crystals forming. nothing to drastic, with these chemicals it all will be a gradual process.
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...
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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I owe you man. just 3 more questions...
1.)I know how much H2O2 and Acetone to use but with 10 % HCI what amount should I use?
2.) How much acetone should this make using megas recipe.
3.) will the store bought brand of H2O2 bring my yeild down any?
Thanks man you really have been alot of help!
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"it"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
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I've got a tip: if it's your first time, you won't need anything as big as a bucket! Make a gram or two at a time, no more!
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
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I don't even know what Mega's recipe is. i can tell you that 200mls of acetone + 400mls of 3% H2O2 will produce about 3/4ths-1 cup of UNCOMORESSED AP. uncompressed
means even by its own weight when it is all fluffy and shit. but if it is your first time i wouldn't make that much. make about half that. and for the amount of HCl. it doesn't
matter how much you use. in the end you will get the same amount of AP. the amount of HCl you use will determine the time it takes to get the 3/4ths cup so don't worry
about it. use like... about half a cup of it.
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...
[This message has been edited by CragHack (edited March 12, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
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Use 100ml 3% H202 18ml acetone and about 10ml HCl. You can use whatever volumes you like as long as you adjust them all proportionally.
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
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Ok I have a question does anyone know a brand name that I can but HCL or Sulfuric acid as. I did do a search so please dont say do a search thanks.
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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You could go to wal-mart and get the brand im getting. ITs called hth it should be 2 little bottles one is red or you could go to pyrotek.org and get 38% HCI for 20$
I think I might just go ahead and get the 38% HCI so the reaction time will be faster.
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"it"
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
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I would go to pyrotek.org but
1)No CC
2)No PO box or unused address to ship it to
Sgt_Starr
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Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Ok guys I need to get my money saved up(take me about a week) Crag you were talking about uncompressed? do you usually compress it? Im going to use your recipe and if
I get that down I want to start making AP fire crackers.....after that Im going to try somthing bigger....first things first though.
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"it"
Sgt_Starr
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Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Why don you just send it to your home address man? Why would they suspect anything bad from HCI?
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"it"
Sgt_Starr
Frequent Poster
Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Ok guys I need to get my money saved up(take me about a week) Crag you were talking about uncompressed? do you usually compress it? Im going to use your recipe and if
I get that down I want to start making AP fire crackers.....after that Im going to try somthing bigger....first things first though.
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"it"
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
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It is not about them suspecting anything it is whena package arrives at the door with a lable with my name on it possible saying acid on it when my parents will start asking
questions
Sgt_Starr
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Posts: 119
From: Petersburg
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Reality check! They will find out about it man unless you have a workshop with a seperate frig and you can sneak the ice besides what if they find the ap drying and think its
crack so they go to throw it in trash....I dont even want to go there! What if they walk in while you are in the middle of synthesis? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Splash!! there goes
all reproductive equipment ~
Dont meen to harpe on you but just be carefull of who has access to where you dry,store,make and test your stuff or you could possibly get somone hurt.?
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"it"
-A-
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From:
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Just be careful. Remember that AP is VERY sensitive. Don't store it in a sealed container or it will vaporise inside it. keep it damp. I would sugest you start with a small amount,
one or two grams. Also remember the cristal can take as much as 12 hours to appear.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD Question - Archive File
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John456
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Hi,
This is my first time making HMTD. I have made Acetone Peroxide before but never had a chance to try HMTD because of the chemicals required. I am using 30% peroxide
and followed Mega's recipe exactly. After stirring the solution for a while, and taking it out of the ice bath, it stayed a clear solution for about an hour. It started to turn milky
white and i noticed a few crystals in there. After 3 or 4 hours, it is still milky white but is pasty and thick, with very small crystals in the paste. I cant pass it through a coffee
filter because it is the consistency of glue. Is this supposed to happen? How do i filter the solution?
Anthony
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Posts: 2321
From: England
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It seems that most of the solution has turned into very fine crystals, probably because you are using high conc. H2O2.
I'd try "filtering" it though a piece of old T-shirt, you'll probably be able to simply sqeeze out the excess liquid when it's in the filter. Don't forget to wash it with plenty of water.
John456
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From:
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Took your advice about the old T-shit. filtered it, and washed it with water and methanol, and it works like a charm
Cricket
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Posts: 160
From: USA
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Does anyone know if I can wash HMTD with the Wal-Mart brand of denatured alcohol? It says it is ethanol denatured with methanol. This is all I have and really hope it will
work. Just want to make sure since it becomes very very sensitive if it is not pure.
Mr Cool
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I've washed it with that bright purple ethanol/methanol stuff, after washing well with water, to help it dry quicker and it was perfectly normal.
Cricket
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Posts: 160
From: USA
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I didnt start a new topic for this question because it is an HMTD question. Anyways, I just got back from Wal-Mart and they said they never heard of citric acid. So I look for
about 30 minutes and dont find it. Whats a good (US) store to get it at and whats it used for? Is it expensive?
John456
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From:
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I got mine from a baking store around here (it was called Big Al's Bakery Supplies). It was $4 a pound. You can get it at Pyrotek too.
Cricket
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Posts: 160
From: USA
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Well thank you all your your help very much. I have one more question, does anyone have a good recipe for HMTD with 27% H2O2 (Baquacil), and HCl (I can get citric acid,
but I have to sign shit for it)? I got enough hexamine, but its no good without the right stuff. Thanks again.
ps I did do a search, but it was either the citric acid way, or not the right %age of H2O2. Also I have the citric acid way if inferior to the HCl.
Anthony
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From: England
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If you found a method using a different concentration of H2O2, then just adjust the amount of H2O2 you use to suit the concentration.
John456
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im not sure if you can use HCL, ive never heard of anyone making HMTD with a mineral acid. you shouldnt have to sign stuff for citric acid, its a common ingredient in soap.
Mr Cool
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The proportions are:
140g hexamine
633g 15% HCl (or 316.5g 30%)
1470 9% H2O2 (or 490g 27%)
Acid and peroxide are both in excess, to ensure a complete reaction of the hexamine.
Theoretical yield = 208 grams HMTD

Normal experimental yield = around 130 grams HMTD.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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I did that with one method posted by 10fingers I think ("You can also use hydrochloric acid instead of citric acid. Here is a good formula;
1. Place 50 ml's 12% hydrogen peroxide,(40 volume hair bleach) in glass jar.
2. Add 12 grams hexamine while stirring. Place in fridge for 1 hr.
3. Remove jar and slowly add 15 ml's hydrochloric acid while stirring, continue stirring for 5 minutes after all acid is added.
4. Place in fridge overnight.
5. There should be a layer of white precipitate on bottom of jar, dump this into a coffee filter and rinse 5 times with distilled water, then with methanol to quicken drying time.
6. Yield 9 or 10 grams.
7. When dry store in a zip-loc bag away from heat and sunlight."). I used about 23ml of 27% H2O2. I just now weighed it and it was 9.2662191 grams. It must be a lot more
dense than AP, I thought I made a much larger pile of AP and it weighed not near as much per volume it seems. Anyways, I just wasnt sure if I should dialute it, or just use
less of it. Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited March 28, 2001).]
Anthony
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From: England
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You have scales accurate to 10 millionth of a gram?!
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
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I don't think its that accurate, but that's what it (the calculator) said. My dad used to be really into reloading .44 mag shells and so he had all kinds of neat shit he left (who
says divorce is bad). The best stuff he left was many hundred shells, two scales (they operate on the grain measurement), and a machine to squeze the bullet into the shell
(wich I might use to make caps (load a shell with suitable HE, compress, put in machine, and squeze in a bullet)). I dont need any detonators now, but when I do i'll post the
results. Anyways, yes, I do have a very sensitive scale (you have to turn your head so you dont accidentally breath on it). To convert grains to grams you divide the grains by
15.4324 and thats why I had such a long decimal.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited March 28, 2001).]
Teck
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At first I was like wow this guy doesnt know where to spend his money. Cus I though you had an analytical scale wich costs around a few thousand bucks.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > questions about FAE's - Archive File
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phyrelord
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Fuel Air Explosives. Are they compressed into their containers with Oxygen and ignited there or are they dispersed into the environment then ignited? Oh and what kind of
explosive would be used in it, and what might the fuel to air ratio be if it were compressed
Mr Cool
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Posts: 991
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I may be wrong, but I think:
The fuel is usually an alkane, e.g. petrol, propane, kerosene etc. etc., or maybe they've developed special fuels now.
There is an oxygen cylinder in the middle of the fuel tank, whith det. cord wrapped round it. When the det. cord is set off, it shatters the O2 cylinder, and the release of
pressure and the explosion blasts the fuel everywhere, and it mixes and evapourates in the O2. It isn't ignited straight away, because the liquid oxygen in the tank suddenly
boiling will cool everything to -186*C. Therefore, a small ignitor charge is sent after the bomb to ignite the fuel/O2 mixture, and BOOM!
Morrigan
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Posts: 81
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All I know is that Propyleneoxide is often used as a fuel in military FAE and that the process of igniting the fuel is one hell of a bitch to improvise, it works with hundreds of little
detonators detonating at the same time throughout the cloud of atomized fuel.
I've got a GIF file of a military FAE, showing much of the detonating stages. if you want it mail me.
[This message has been edited by Morrigan (edited March 13, 2001).]
phyrelord
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Posts: 135
From:
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would it be possible to use something like WD40 for the explosive, possibly cracking it open in mid air then igniting it or would it be to weak? Oh and how much would you
need in order to get a very big BANG?
BoB-
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From:
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Military FAE's are huge detonating clouds of nitrated alcohols, acheiving this on an improvised scale would be really hard.
a large cloud of fire is plenty destructive enough.
the freshmaker
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From: Heaven
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most FAE's uses ethyleneoxide.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nitro Acetone Naphthalene Peroxide
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THErAPIST July 13th, 20 03, 07:5 8 PM

Nitro Acetone N a p h t h a l e n e P e r o x i d e
(I d o n t know if this would be the right nam e f o r t h i s s u b s t a n c e , a n d I m pretty sure this isn t correct, but this is what it shall
be called until the proper nam e is discovered.) :p
This is a two part procedure.
Properties:
Light yellow crystals which are about the same size as baking flo u r , a n d h a v e a s t r o n g s m e l l o f m o thballs. Substance is
sensitive to shock, friction, and im pact. Mixture m ust be com pletely dry to detonate. Substance has a hard time detonating in
a m ounts of under a gram . Product must be hig hly pressed to achieve detonation when using sm all quantities up to 3 grams.
S u b s t a n c e i s s l i g h t l y l e s s s e n s i t i v e t h a n A c e t o n e P e r o x i d e a n d a l s o s e e m s to be slightly m ore brisant. When a sm a l l a m o u n t
unconfined com es into contact with flam e o r s p a r k i t d e c o m p o s e s i m m e d iately with a fireball and b lack sm oke. Larg e r a m o u n t s
m a y d e t o n a t e . D e t o n a t i o n d o e s n o t e m i t a n y s m oke. NANP is soluble in alcohol a nd aceto ne, and insoluble in water.
Precursors:
25% H2O 2
NH4NO3 (bu t I m s u r e any nitrate could be u s ed)
Acetone
Naphthalene
34% HC L
Procedure:
(Part 1)
- 5 0 m l o f a c e t o n e i s p ut into a beaker and warm e d u p t o 6 0 C a n d t h e n r e m oved from h e a t .

-Powdered naphthalene is added to the acetone and stirred until no more naphthalene will dissolve.
-Add 5m l o f a c e t o n e t o d i s s o l v e t h e s m a l l a m o u n t o f n a p h t h a l e n e t h a t r e m ains in the ace tone
- Keep acetone/ naphthalene mixture in an airtight container until ready for part 2.
~~Note: Acetone/ naphthalene mixture will be yellowish~~
(Part 2)
- 2 5 m l o f a c e t o n e / n a p h t h a l e n e m i x t u r e i s p l a c e d into a 250m l b e a k e r
-Beaker is placed in a bowl of water an d crushed ice
- 5 0 m l o f 2 5 % H 2 O 2 i s a d d e d t o A c e t o n e / n a p h thalene m ixture 10m l at a time over a period of 10 m inutes with slow stirring.
-5 gram s of NH4NO 3 is added to conte nts of the 250m l beaker and mixture is stirred until NH4NO 3 has com pletely dissolved.
- C o n t e n t s o f t h e b e a k e r a r e a llowed to cool to 10 C or lower
- 2 5 m l o f 3 4 % H C L i s a d d e d t o s o l u t i o n i n b e a k er 10ml at a tim e over a period of 10 minutes with slow stirring.
-Mix ture is cooled for two hours, or until ice melts, and then m ixture is le ft in bucket to sit at room temperature for a period of
20 hours.
-A light yellow precipitate should have formed a layer after 20 hours and the reaction should be do ne.
-Filter the precipitate. This is the NANP
-Wash the NANP with 200m l of cold water
- M a k e a 1 0 0 m l solution of 10% sodium bicarbonate solution and wash NANP with this solution
-Wash NANP with 200m l more of cold water
-Spread filter out in a dry undisturbed place, spread NANP out on filter, and allow to dry for a period of 12 h ours. (A Very strong
s m e ll of m othballs will be noticed, so place the filter in an area that is easily ventilated)
-After 12 hours the NANP should be dry. The NANP is now ready to be used.
I talked with Brainfever about this com pound and the conclusion that was reached was that this is probably MNN covered AP.
This would explain the smell and the fact that it seem s to be slightly more powerful than regular ole' AP.
On a further note, 3g NANP was presse d into a straw and was used as the cap to detonate 27g of ANNC which was pressed into
a tree.
Pics of NANP can be found here (http://i-was-bored.8m .com /NANP)

Pics of the tree can be uploaded and linked to if they need to be.
kingspaz July 13th, 20 03, 09:0 7 PM

i agree with it being MNN mixed with AP. i'm not sure wh at else it could be really.
a s f o r h e a t i n g a c e t o n e t o 6 0 * C , g o o d l o o k ! i t b oils at 56!

I slightly messed up there writing it down when I first made it. It should be 40. I first started letting the naphthalene dissolve
a n d t h e n I h e a t e d t h e m i x t u r e t o g e t t h e n a p h t h a l e n e t o d i s s o l v e q u i c k e r. Heatin g isn't really necessary. See what happens
when you try to write procedures down from mem ory? Im positive about the rest of the synth proce dure though.
DBSP July 14th, 20 03, 07:2 7 AM

H o w m a n y g r a m s d i d y o u g e t f r o m t h e a b o v e b atch?
Have you got any idea of storage stability? have you tested storing it?
Lets say that the AP as usual starts to decom p o s e a s s o o n a s i t i s f o r m e d , t h e n t h e a m mount of AP in the explosive would
drop during storage renderinng it less sensitive for each day that passes. Thus after a long tim e of storage the am m ount of AP
in it will be very low and the content of MNN very high.
So it's uses would change during storage since its sensitivity would chang e a s t h e t i m e p a s s e s .
Is there a so lvent that only dissolves one of the two explosives? if so it would be interesting finding out how great the % of
MNN in this e xplosive is.
Arthis July 14th, 20 03, 08:0 8 AM

MNN = Mono Nitro Naphtalene, right ?
blindreeper July 14th, 20 03, 08:4 4 AM

Guilty!
THErAPIST July 14th, 20 03, 10:0 9 AM

I've stored this in a test tube for 2 weeks and it still worked fine. I also set some on a dish and even though I don't have an
extrem ely accurate scale I dont think I lost any of it over the 3 days it set around. Again since I dont have an extre mely
accu rate scale I cant say for sure what my yield was, but I think I got aro u n d 2 5 g .
kingspaz July 15th, 20 03, 08:4 3 AM

how does NANP's power com pare with that of ordinary AP?
nbk2000 July 15th, 20 03, 12:0 3 PM

W here the MNN coming from?
There's napthalene and nitrate, but no acid to form nitric, so how's it turning into MNN?
It's not.
You're forming APAN in situ with napthalene dissolved into the m ix.
Arthis July 15th, 20 03, 01:1 4 PM

Y o u a d d s o m e HCl in the m ix, this is the origin of the H+ ions. As it's drown in wa ter (low HCl conc. of course), it explains the
form ation of Mono-NN.
nbk2000 July 15th, 20 03, 04:0 1 PM

Try the process, minus the peroxide, and see if you get MNN then.
I don't think it too likely, as HCl is a weak acid com pared to sulphuric, and really isn't suitable for a nitration via nitrate salt.
knowledgehungry July 15th, 20 03, 05:2 3 PM

T h e r e a r e s o m e nitrations which use HCl as the acid, i thought i saw one for RDX or m aybe HDN.
ALENGOSVIG1 July 15th, 20 03, 08:0 7 PM

RDX via HCl? I wish! :)
Its HDN that can be m ade with HCl/nitrate.
I doubt MNN was created though. It requires som ewhat strong acids and a long, warm nitration. You also said your product
s m e lls like napthalen e, but MNN doesn't really sm ell like naptha lene. It sm ells very sim ilar to napthalene, but its noticeably
different; to m e anyway.
I dont even think mixing MNN with AP would m a k e a m ore powerful explosive, as im q u i t e s u r e M N N d o e s n ' t e v e n d e t o n a t e a n d
it has a very -O B.
blindreeper July 15th, 20 03, 08:2 0 PM

There are several HDN synths on the n et that u se HCl + xNO3
ALEN's (http://www.an gelfire.com / l i n u x / a l e n g g / m ain.htm l)
Mega's (http://roguesci.org/m e g a l o m a n i a / e x p l o / h e x a m ethylenetetramine_dinitrate.html)
Mr C ool's (http://www.flashbangboom.hom e s t e a d . c o m / p r o c e d u r e s . h t m l)
Usin g HCl lowers the yeild but it is still possible. So it may be po sible to nitrate napthalene with HC l. I may try this today
b e c a u s e I h a v e a l l t h e s t u f f n e e d e d i f s o m e o n e can give m e a n i d e a o n a m m o u n t s o n t h e reactants.

I haven't done any tests personally to see if its any stronger besides tap ing a 1 gram cap to a metal "for sale" sign and the
hole was a bit (not that much) larger than the one made by the 1 gram AP cap th at was taped on next. Again I don't have a
very accurate scale so I can im agine I might have had a little more than 1 g of NANP in the cap and possibly a little less than 1
gram of AP in the oth er cap.
It doesn't sm ell exactly like naphthalene but it smells very close. The sm ell of NANP gives m e a h e a d a c h e a f t e r a w h i l e a n d
regular ole naphthale n e s m ell doesnt, I just find it very annoying after a while.
kingspaz July 18th, 20 03, 07:4 7 AM
ok, for the form ation of nitro aromatics you need the generation of NO 2+ ions. this is part of the job of H2SO4 in usual
nitrations. naphthalene can ta ke on a nitro group pretty easily. i was thin king there m ust be an NO 2+ source in this
e x p e r i m ent.
the only thing i could think of was that some nitric acid will inevitably decom pose form ing NO2.
NO2 is itself a radical.
H 2 O 2 will deom pose form ing O* radicals quite easily.
i think one possibility is this:

NO2 + O* --> O- + NO 2+
if the synthesis could be carried out under a sun lam p or anothe r UV source then it could be seen if the rea ction was
dependent on radical generation. UV would decom p o s e m o r e H N O 3 a n d H 2 O 2 so the reaction would proceed faster.
Microtek July 21st, 2003, 10:00 AM

T o m e i t s e e m s t h a t y o u m u s t b e m aking AP with several different im purities. There will likely be some traces of MNN, but not
enough to affect the explosive properties directly I think.
However, it seem s from your description of the product, that the crystals are som ewhat sm aller tha n m ine were when I used to
m ake AP.
This could arise from an effect similar to the effect of adding starch to Pb(NO3)2 before precipitating Pb(N3)2, and as such
m ight well reduce sensitivity as well as increasing density when packing it in certain ways ( thus giving a seemingly more
brisant product ).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > new prim ary explosives
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Hi!
I l o o k e d i n t h e a r c h i v e s , I u s e d t h e s e a r c h f u n c t i o n a n d I d i d n o t f i n d a n y s i m ila r topics. If there was this topic I m very sorry

and just cancel this one. There was som e t h i n g a b o u t a d e t o n a t o r on MHN and pirotechnic m ixture. But for me nitrom annit is
too sensitive.
This is a inte resting subject so I put it on. For me a new prim ary explosive should be electrostatic discharge safe! Most
u n e x p e c t e d e x p l o s i o n s o f H M T D , A P o r l e a d a z i d e a r e c a u s e b y e l e c t r o s t a t i c d i s c h a r g e s , from which it s v e ry hard to secure .
This is a list of new prim ary explosives I know:
1. NHN (nikiel hydrazinum nitrate)

2. CP (2-(5-cyanotetrazolato) pentaam inecobalt (III) perchlorate)
3. CC P (?)
4. NCP (?)
5. 1,4-Diform yl-2,3,5,6-Tetranitratopip erazine
I wonder if copper(II) tetraam ino(?) nitrate ([Cu(NH3)4](NO3)2) has this properties (electrostatic discharge safety)? Som e o n e
detonated it? Its very easy to make.
CP actually isn t s o s a f e l i k e NHN but s a f e r t h a n P b ( N 3 ) 2 . I h a v e n o n e i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t C C P a n d N C P .
I think NHN is the best because it is very easy to synthesize however it is hard to detonate. Does someone actually
d e t o n a t e d ( f rom a bridgewire) s mall a m ount ( l i k e 1 g ) o f NHN? NHN m ust have high density (how high I d o n t know) or will
note detonate. Perhaps NHN could be m ixed with som e nonexplosive substances that will help NHN to detonate from fire.
1,4-Diform yl- 2,3,5,6-Tetranitratopiperaz in e isn t very interesting because its s ynthesize requires trifluoroaceticanhydride.
Any inform ation are very, very glad to see.
PS
I learned chemistry a pyrotechnics not in English so it will be very nice if someone could sent m i the structure of CP.
Best regards,
MBialy
Efraim_barkbit August 3rd, 2003, 07:50 AM

W hy not post som e synths. fo r your new, safe, and easy to mak e prim a r i e s ?
and if NHN is hard to detonate is it really a prim ary?

Yes it is a primary explosive. Like I said it m ust have high density to detonate from fire.
NHN can be synthesize from hydrazine hydrate and nickel nitrate. Later I will put the exact description of the preparation. 100
m g of NHN ignites RDX.
Cyclonite August 3rd, 2003, 08:44 AM

This is a inte resting subject so I put it on. For me a new prim ary explosive should be electrostatic discharge safe! Most
u n e x p e c t e d e x p l o s i o n s o f H M T D , A P o r l e a d a z i d e a r e c a u s e b y e l e c t r o s t a t i c d i s c h a r g e s , from which it s v e ry hard to secure .
Im sorry if I m isunderstood but when you say hard to secure do you m ean static is a problem thats hard to solve? If so I ha ve
a method I like to call grounding, just touch the ground or a metal object to discharge any static you may have built up by
m oving around.
Arthis August 3rd, 2003, 10:11 AM

A little friction may ca u s e s o m e s o m e electrostatic effects on any material. Depending on the sensitivity of the com pound, its
purity, or whatever, the effect may be importan t enough to cause prem aturate de flagration of a molecule/cristal.

If so I have a method I like to call gro unding, just touch the gro und or a m etal object to discharge any static you m a y h a v e
built up by m oving around. [/B]
That's right. But the safer the better. Even then ("grounding", high humidity) a spark may appear and bum :(
yt2095 August 3rd, 2003, 10:29 AM

Interesting topic, I`ve tried an experim e n t s o m e tim e ago, trying to ignite AP and HMTD (with and without AN mixed) using the
peizo electric sparker from an old lighter.
I thought it would ma ke a che ap and nasty way to rem o t e l y d e t o n a t e a h o m e m a d e c a p u s i n g R G / 8 c o a x .
I ` d e p l a c e d a p e a s i z e d a m ount of each mix onto tinfoil and "zapped" it repeatedly (until my fingers got sore) it did nothing :(
the sparks would go through the pile a nd even eject som e of the crystals as if electrostaticly repelled.
s o m uch for that idea !
but it MAY be a usefu ll test for anything you m ake and are uncertain about with regards to static sensitivity.
MBialy August 3rd, 2003, 02:12 PM

The preparation of 1,4-Diform yl-2,3,5,6-Tetranitratopiperazine is on the Mad Scie nce forum : http://www.sciencemad ness.org /
talk/viewthread.php?tid=506
I d o n t u n d e r s t a n d the s tructure that is shown here: http://www.sciencem a d n e s s . o r g / t a l k / viewthread.php?
action=attachm ent&tid=506&p id=4219
W h a t a r e t h o s e little pink atom s c o n n e c t e d t o t h e e s t e r nitroge n a t o m ? ?. It s probably a m istake .
NHN synthesize:
W e prepare 100 ml 8% nickel nitrate (solution A). Prepare solution B: 50 m l of solution A and 50 ml of water. Heat solution B
t o 6 0 * C . A t t h e s a m e tim e add dropwise two solutions: 50 m l of solution A and 7 ml of hydrazine hydrate (>80%). After the
addition m ix f or 10 m in, filter, wash with water next with ethanol and dry it. You ge t ~11g dark violet powder NHN.
Main problem i s t o d e t o n a t e i t . I t s no t sim ple.
vulture August 3rd, 2003, 03:38 PM

I m ade that structure you are referring to with Chem 3D. If you read a tiny bit further there, you'll see m e saying that those
little pink atoms are lone electron pairs.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP in Iraq
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Im in probley one of the worst places to try a synth of AP but I had a dream that I had a success. The yeilds were poor but I was reduced to useing nail polish remover, 6%
H202 and H2SO4 from a battery in a hummer. The H2SO4 was an unknown concentration, it didnt seem to be over 20% though. I used 200ml of H202 and put that in a bottle,
I marked off where the 200ml was with a marker then I used a piece of paper the height of the mark and folded 2X to get 50ml. I added that to the 200ml mark and added
50ml of nail posigh remover. Then I put in about 15ml of acid and let it sit for 14 hours at a temp of around 25C in a tent with AC. The yield was about 8g or so. I had no tools
to measure weight or volume besides the 200ml container that the H202 came in. In my dream I though it best to get rid of the AP since a military installation is a bad place to
have it. So down the shitter it went. This just gos to show no one has a valid reason to not be able do a AP synth. I used the most availible and worst chems and without
concentration.
nbk2000 August 18th, 2003, 04:35 AM

And if you can do it, so can the fedaykin, who are probably NOT going to be flushing it down the shitter. :p
BTW, do you mean litterally "flush", like with water? I'd think that too scarce a commodity in the desert to waste on something like shit.
And where'd you get the nail polish remover from? One of the female soldiers? What's the army coming to? :rolleyes:
Oh well, just goes to show you can make an explosive out of practically anything, anywhere, if you know how. :)

Yes I mean flush, the water I use I also shower in. It smells like shit but its clear. Im lucky enough to be in one of the more built up camps. Also yes the nail polish remover
was from a female soldier and H202 from a medic.
vulture August 18th, 2003, 10:21 AM

I wonder how you acces this forum? Does the army have internet terminals for their soldiers?
If so, it would surprise me if it isn't being watched, that would mean you could be in a world of hurt sooner or later...:eek:

Here they banned acetone from being sold to the public (I am guessing that's due to abuse by druggies) so up untill I found another source I had to resort to nail polish; the
chapest brand of which works just as well.
Cyclonite August 18th, 2003, 12:56 PM

We setup internet for work but im sure its watched a little but its mostly just automated filters for porn drugs ect.... I never said I did anything questionable but im sure it may
look it. I could be making shit up anyways. Im not too worried about it. I dont have quite the level of paranoia of some fourm members. I would never setoff any HE unless it
has to do with work, here anyways.

Desmikes, for some reason, I dont believe you. Especially when you say you come from Russia. maybee the store where you used to buy it have run out of it, and the guys
there were just fucking with you when you asked for it?
Sarevok August 19th, 2003, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Cyclonite
We setup internet for work but im sure its watched a little but its mostly just automated filters for porn drugs ect....
Outrageous. The army don't let you watch some porn? They don't permit the rape of female soldiers too (http://www.thedeathhouse.com/deathhousenewfi_314.htm). :mad:
What they want, an army of fags?
As to your AP manufacture, I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. Vulture is just a bit "paranoid" as you said. Or perhaps you end up in Guantanamo... :rolleyes:
US soldier jailed for the illegal manufacture of a dangerous bomb using a recipe taken from the internet!

Yes the army is getting worse every year, whos knows whats next? Openly Gay infantry and female delta force... jeezz.

You just don't understand it do you?
The army is enlisting women because of all the gizmos and chemicals they need!
This way you can make bombs presto when and where you want it in the biggest pile of shit in the world!
:D
ossassin December 7th, 2003, 11:51 PM

Haha, "female soldiers!" Good one, Sarevok! They allow women to enlist, because the feminist groups have them in a headlock. At least women don't get to fight. Our country
would be disgraced.
I agree about the raping of the female soldiers. If they want to enlist, that's fine, but they should at least have to become the unit whores. :D
AsylumSeaker December 9th, 2003, 03:04 AM

I was once on holiday at a pretty remote beach area and managed to make up some AP using 6% h202 detergent, some pilfered pool acid and some acetone from a hardware
store. It wasn't so much that I could easily get the chemicals that suprised me, more how quickly I could get them. I just walked around and in 20 minutes had everything I
needed including an eyedropper from the chemist.
I can't beleive the misogyny in this place. You are the epitomes of whats wrong with all your countries.
ossassin December 9th, 2003, 10:32 AM

We're Americans, AsylumSeeker. I bet your country doesn't have the same problems that our country does with women in the military, or at least not the same extent. They
even take people like Jessica Lynch, who did absolutely nothing but get captured without fighting back, and they make them heroes. Usually, some guy that really did
something brave is overlooked, because the media is too preoccupied with the woman. In this case a guy, I don't remember his name, was in her maintenence unit. He fought
until he was out of ammo, and they had to shoot and stab him several times to take him down. You never hear anything about him.
EDIT:
There was also an Iraqi lawyer there in the hostpital saw some sort of high-ranking officer slap Jessica Lynch. He thought that the action was abusive, so he walked quite a
long distance through an area known as "Ambush Alley" to tell the Americans where she was. Ambush Alley was an area where snipers on both sides would wait for potential
victims to walk by. Anyway, the Americans didn't believe him, so they sent him back to the hospital to draw up a map of it. He went back through Ambush Alley and mapped
out the entire complex. This was probably very risky in itself, because there were surely guards there watching him. After the map was done, he trekked through Ambush Alley
a third time and gave the map to the Americans. This is one more hero that was overshadowed by the Jessica Lynch feeding frenzy that the media was going through at the
time.
AsylumSeaker December 9th, 2003, 09:14 PM

I live in australia and we allow women in our military. Just because the media is shit and turns whatever it can into a good story to get money is no excuse for rape.
Axt December 9th, 2003, 09:29 PM

We (Aus.) are the same as US, women are only support troops and arnt allowed to be part of the fighting force, at least in the army dont know about the rest.
tom haggen December 12th, 2003, 02:30 AM

Well, as an american I think a lot of this political correctness bull shit is exactly that, bull shit.
as for raping women, thats a little harsh, if your nice to them they give it up for free, most of the time. But women definetly do not have any buisness on the battle field. Also
a guy i go to school with is a x marine M.P. officer. I have talked to him on a few occasions about internet use in the military. He has told me that the authorities can be
watching a soldier's or a marine's computer screen anytime they want, from a remote location. just remember Big Brother is Watching You.
Sarevok December 12th, 2003, 05:26 AM

Females are given nice things to arouse an erection like breasts, legs, faces, hands, fingers, feet, noses, eyes, lips, hair, and tongues; they have a hole between their legs for
penetration by males. They were made this way. Thus, they should be sexually available to anyone willing to fuck them.
Posted by ossassin:
We're Americans
See, I could write a zillion words about how much I would like to be an american, but I'm not. I was born on the pigpen and now I have to live in the dirt with the pigs. Life is
unfair.
Brazil is fucked up, and everything here is getting worse. Our "army" is getting ever worse than our other shit. The government has no money and most of the recruits were
sent to their homes. I saw on TV, some months ago, some female soldiers practicing their "survival skills" on the Amazon Rainforest. It was ridiculous! They acted like girlscouts
playing, not like soldiers training.
Posted by tom haggen:

as for raping women, thats a little harsh, if your nice to them they give it up for free, most of the time.
Untrue. If you are a nigger, a brute, a rich person, a popular person, or if you have a nice car, then they give it up for free. If you are a borderline retard they might give it up
for free! But if you are a sensible, intelligent, middle-class, decent white person, they will not give it up. Never. They will laugh at your face, call you a fag and let you stay by
yourself, alone, as lonely as a piece of shit. Forever. To rot. And to die. Virgin.
Women are shit meant to be fucked. By force, if necessary.
Evan007 December 12th, 2003, 07:25 AM

What topic was this again? Oh yeah. Anyway Cyclonite, you are not alone in your ability to make explosives appear out of extremely locked down air. I heard of a FEMALE who
was caught with a synthesis of "high explosive" (the media called it). She was in prison. This woman had according to the story already made an explosive device with the
large amounts synthesized when she was caught with more in the pipeline.
What a freakin champ. FIGHT THE POWER!!!!
But anyway what explosive she could have made is beyond me, although it was a low security facility. I am thinking it was AP though. What else could it be? Even though it
was low security, those things arent a friggin holiday. If this Prison-Pyro-Pioneer can do it, by gum so can Anyone!!!!

Damn Sarevok...someone badly needs to get laid, eh? ;)
If it's that difficult to get some, follow my suggestion in my thread about "raising machiavelli":
Gun, basement, chain, gun (again), and finally shovel. :D
If it's just for sex, get a mud and dispose of it when you're done. If it's for breeding, get a white woman and get two children out of her prior to disposal, as we (whites) need
to increse our numbers (not decrease them).
Don't beat up on the women in your own military by raping them. That's what the enemies women are for. :)
It's only in the last century that most countries have gotten away from condoning rape of captured enemy populations. Since before biblical days it was a given that the losing
side would be giving up their holes and their lives to the winners for whatever purpose they saw fit to do with them.
Whole populations would be have their men put to the sword, children sold into slavery, and women raped to death. The soviets had a bit of this when they conquered
germany in WWII. There were something like 100,000 births in the 1946 resulting from rape with almost every female from 8 to 80 getting a yard of dick ran through her
holes.
Rape was a weapon used by all sides of the Yugoslavian civil war. Good sport.
To say that it's OK to put a bullet through a womans head and kill her, but not stick your dick in her and let her live is, to me, absurdity. Rape can be recovered from. Dead is
forever.
Anyways...
All military personnel agree that they have no rights when they join the military. You become the property of the state and will do what you're told to do, and kill or die if that's
what they say you need to do, and you also have ZERO privacy.
Naturally ALL communications through military 'nets are monitored. If not by humans directly than certainly through key word filters that kick anything of an "interesting" nature
to a human for review.
megalomania December 13th, 2003, 01:00 AM

Somewhere out there a federal agent is freaking out because he just realized how easy AP is to make. Somebody is probably using this thread as a reference for a journal of
forensic science article too.
metal dragon December 13th, 2003, 01:20 AM

Quote
If you are a nigger, a brute, a rich person, a popular person, or if you have a nice car, then they give it up for free
Now why is this? If you are a nigger why do women like that? Is there a specific reason? Or is it just you cant get laid?
As NBK would call them muds they usually have a nice car (most probably stolen) but I know some and they dont get laid nearly as often as they think/would like to
be.
I agree somewhat with your theory that women where made to arouse men, but that does not justif y rape. If they flirt, make the first move, let you fuck em half way
then say stop, then rape could be an option. But if they are only attractive and have not made any moves on you then you than have no reason for rape. I really
don t like the idea of NBKs rape them than kill them. For rape is more a mental scaring something they will have to live with forever. So if the bitch deserves it (and
only deserves it) than rape would be a life long torment.
mr.pyro December 15th, 2003, 07:13 PM

I just tried what Cyclonite did and he is right, all I did was mix less then 10mL of 3% H2O2 and some nail posish reamover, no acid and let it sit for a day, today I went and
checked and there are some little crystals that look like pins. long and skinny, should I even Attempt to filter these off or just trash teh mixture, Im not really in need of it and
from what I have read the crystals seem very big.
AsylumSeaker December 15th, 2003, 09:04 PM

'once you've had black you can't go back.'
The other day i succesfully made ap out of nail polish remover, detergent and a 60% acetone glue. I used car battery acid. Left the jar in a container of water to attempt to
keep it cool. Yield was suprisingly good contrary to all the 'without proper cooling you will get bad yield' stuff.
vulture December 16th, 2003, 07:26 AM

Well, it seems like the Iraqi resistance uses a mixture of homemade shit and military stuff.
TV showed a camera crew that was allowed to go with them during a small raid. They used a BP mortar with high explosive rounds. Fired 2 in 20s and then got the fuck out of
there.
They also showed a homemade antitank rocket. The warhead was covered by somekind of eight bladed rotor, which would be folded in and a plastic cap would be stuck over
it. I have no clue what the purpose of this is. They claimed it could penetrate armor.
TreverSlyFox December 17th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Vulture,
Sounds like the 8 blade rotor could be part of a "bore safe" arming system but you'ed have to pull the plastic cap just before it was fired if that's what it is. The rotor could
bring a primer into position to be hit by a firing pin with whatever number of turns in flight. Or it could release a safety on the firing pin or a combination of both though that
would seem a bit too complicated.
I have seen systems that the "spin" of a shell caused enough centrifical force to retract keepers and allow a spring loaded primer to move forward within reach of a firing pin.
But with a fin stableized AT rocket it wouldn't have the spin to do that, so a rotor system could do the same thing.
Folkien November 3rd, 2004, 09:24 PM

As much as I hate to quote from Totse, they had a wonderful article about 2 marines gone AWOL during the first Gulf War. The guys were eventually found near the Syrian
border in a makeshift camp with several large pits full of human feces, covered in tarred sand. It took the military a while to figure out that they had processed about 140 kilos
of urea and were distilling sugar alcohols from harvested fruit to make an estimated 220 kilos of nitromannitose based explosives. Yet more proof that you can make
explosives from anything if you have the knowhow and the patience to deal with horrible working conditions.
simply RED November 20th, 2004, 10:57 AM

Explosives can be made everywere since NH4NO3 and acetone peroxide can me made, find everywhere.
And yes, bitch is always a bitch. In a soviet sapper manual from 1986 there is a sentence "Only TNT deals with her", this is enough I think.
But... not all wemen are unsuitable for military purpose. I knew at lest one who was very close to my skills...
She was able not to act bitchy in some importaint situations....
....rare gift....

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Aceton Peroxide... Where???
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Nope August 24th, 2003, 02:41 PM

I've tried to make AP for 5 times and I failed.
I'm using 85% Aceton, 30% HP and 15% HCL.
Okay, when I mix the aceton and the HP it starts heating and I cool it without knowing the temprature. After that, I pour the
acid in small quanities at a time and let it cool again. And then no white precipitate is forming.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you.
(Using Megalomania's amounts.)
Titanium August 24th, 2003, 02:56 PM

Have you tried to let it stay in the fridge in about 12 hours???

Yes, but not 12... 4 hours.
Rhadon August 24th, 2003, 03:05 PM

I really didn't think that someone could be able to mess up an actone peroxide synthesis! What a pity that I don't have
administrative powers in this section :).
Just in case this topic will stay here long enough for you to answer: It would be good for us to know what the other 15% of your
acetone are. And: How much HCl did you use (in relation to the amount of hydrogen peroxide and acetone)?

Are you sure that's 30% H2O2 you have and not 30vol? Where did you get it from?
If it is, you'll have to leave it for at least 24hrs before you can expect any crystal formation.
Arthis August 24th, 2003, 07:38 PM

Anyway, when making AP you can let it sit for 24 hours, unused acetone will be evaporated, and as AP is not soluble in water,
it wil result very little losses.
The acetone can be impure due to mixes with another products, like nail remover, some spray to clean up kitchen or windows
(I think there are some using aceton). And then further concentrated. There are always special products in each country; using
different chemicals...

Man...Have you looked at my AP in Iraq thread? If I can here you can there. Let it sit for longer as stated and try and vary the
% of chems. Experiment and see what works best for you, take a look at all the AP synth information mentioned and try
those.

The acetone impurities may be ethyl acetate. It is availible here as a substitute for acetone in nail varnish removers so it
might be a mixture of the two. I don't know wether ethyl actetate dissolves AP but if it was very effective at doing that it could
perhaps lower the yileds. I strongly doubt that because of all the water though.

No. It's 30%. I got it from a medical supplies shop. I'll try again and let it cool for 24 hours this time.

If you got the hydrogen peroxide from a medical supplies shop, it could be either 6% w/v (which is what I use), or 27% w/v
(which is harder to find, but reacts faster). Acetone is generally easy to find (and cheap, too) in the pure state (100%), the
medical supplies shop should have it. 0.1 N HCl / H2SO4 are just fine.
4 hrs?? You gotta be patient!! I use 6% hydrogen peroxide, 100% acetone, 100 ml 0.1 N HCl, and I have to wait for about a
week and a half till any substantial amount of ap is formed. The reaction mixture is kept in a refrigerator at 3* C all the while.
Try keeping it cool for about 24-48 hrs.
Another thing- when you said that the reaction mixture gets heated, do you mean in excess of 30 degrees C ? That doesn't
sound too safe- you could end up with more of the dimer (much more unstable) than the trimer (relatively more stable) if the
reaction is allowed to proceed at such temperatures. Why don't you cool all the reactants to about 4 degrees C in a refrigerator
before making the ap? Also, remember to use an ice bath to keep the reaction temperature low, and add the acid very slowly,
stirring with a glass rod all the while.
DBSP, Yup, it is highly probable that ethyl acetate dissolves AP (both are non-polar compounds, both ketones, and like
dissolves like), but I doubt that it would affect the yields...
metafractal August 26th, 2003, 07:51 AM

If ethyl acetate does dissolve AP (which seems likely as you point out), then how could it not affect yields?
The ethyl acetate dissolves the AP, and it becomes a solution. Therefore when he filters it less appears as, while the AP is
there, it is not in a crystalline state.
And you are clearly exaggerating when you say a week for 6% H2O2. Once I left a batch to sit under the conditions you
described for a week and it formed a solid cake at the bottom! 48hrs is plenty, and the times he described should be plenty
for 30% H2O2.

Nope, how much of each compound did you use? I'm having difficulty believing that you cannot find pure acetone. Unless you
are sure that your H2O2 is 30% I'd try a peroxide burn test. Other than that, the only thing that might keep you from getting
your AP is if you follow directions that were based on higher concentratioin of acid (usually it's around 35%), might wanna add
more or try some other acid.

The Hydrogen Peroxide is 30%. I told the man who has the shop to make 30% H.P.. Yesterday, I got aceton from a paintstore
but there wasn't any concetration noted in the container's label. I use 200ml. H2O2, 150ml. Aceton and 50ml. HCL (15%).
Next time, I'll let it cool in the freezer for 1-2 days.

you told him to make 30% H2O2? haha
you know it sounds like? the guy in the shop is a fucking retarded ape. i suspect hes made a 30% solution using 6% peroxide
or something similar. that is, 30% of 6% peroxide solution. thus, a 1.8% peroxide solution. assuming he started with 6%.

I know that guy and he gave me 30% of 100%. . :)

No one has 100% H2O2, it is EXTREMELY unstable.
Nihilist August 26th, 2003, 06:45 PM

could use good 'ol fashioned sunlight. H2O2 decomposes in the presence of ultraviolet rays, though i'm not sure how quickly.
Rhadon August 26th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Nihilist is referring to a post of myself which I deleted because Nope already stated that he's sure that his H2O2 is 30% before
I was able to submit my post. I suggested to test the H2O2 content by decomposing it with a catalyst and looking if many
bubbles form.
I don't think that the decomposition of H2O2 under sunlight is fast enough for measurement with the eye, though. MnO2 or
silver should be better. Using HCl and measuring the Cl2 created should be better.

Why not do the test in a closed environment, and collect the o2 formed in a graduated cylinder using downward displacement
of water, and after measuring the volume of o2 formed, calculate the purity of the H2O2?
metafractal, the amount of ethyl acetate impurities that might be present will not be able to dissolve significant quantities of
ap, hence it should not make much of a difference. Oh, and I was not exaggerating when I said a week. If I keep it for a day
or two, I only end up with about 1.5 Gms of ap... not worth it. Leaving the reaction mixt. outside makes it worse, because in
that case, I just get bubbles of o2, no ap. 30% h2o2 is worlds apart, though, and I guess 12-24 hrs would do, like you said...
What was the temperature and light conditions when you did your expt. for a week?

I suspect the whole problem of this thread lies in the fact that some people are just too retarded to get the difference between
volume%/weight% and mass/volume/density.
Rhadon August 27th, 2003, 04:59 AM

Why not do the test in a closed environment, and collect the o2 formed in a graduated cylinder using downward displacement
of water, and after measuring the volume of o2 formed, calculate the purity of the H2O2? Because I'm afraid all this would get
too complicated for Nope, so I chose the easiest method I could imagine. It will be good enough for distinguishing between
1.8% and 30% H2O2.
metafractal August 27th, 2003, 05:45 AM

T_Pyro: I see your point. When I left the AP for a week it was at about 7*C (I usually keep it at more like 3*C, though) and it
was exposed to sunlight/moonlight throgh plastic(the reaction vessle was kept outside with artificial temperature control). It
might have had something to do wit hthe fact that I used a jam jar and not pyrex glass...
But seriously, those yields are worrying. What protocol do you use? Take a look at angelo's (http://www.geocities.com/
angelo_444/3to6.html). This is the one I use for 6%. While I have never achieved the yields he shows, I have found it to be
the best method for low conc. H2O2. Its not too bad for high conc. H2O2 either, if the amounts are adjusted appropriately.

knowledgehungry, that was my thinking too. even IF he had 100% H2O2 theres no way in hell he'd handle it. unless he IS
retarded as i suspenct is the case.
nope, did the guy you buy it off have a fat neck?

or instead of a catalyst you could just get your skin wet w/H2O2 and see if it turns white (it will go away in a few hrs) that's
what I met by peroxide burn. If it does it very quickly then you prbly do have 30+ conc. this thread really is going nowhere
though
Cyclonite August 31st, 2003, 03:57 AM

Ok, iv heard people say that when they put in the acid that AP started to from immediately filled the container in a short
amount of time while other wait 1 week? I know the concentration of chems has alot to do with it but does it really form that
fast with high concentration chems?
metafractal August 31st, 2003, 04:42 AM

No, it does not :).
I have made AP with everything from 3% to 50% H2O2. While concentration does make a huge difference, both of the
extremes you mentioned are unrealistic. Those who wait a week are either using a riddiculously low concentration H2O2 (<2%)
or are doing something terribly wrong. The only conditions under which AP can form that quickly are undesireable. If, say, you
use high conc H2O2 with excess H2SO4 catalyst and no heat control (i.e. no ice bath) then yes, your AP will form very quickly.
However, you will end up with a poor yield of almost totally dimer, give off some nasty fumes, and generate enough heat for
there to be a risk of detonating the formed AP!
So, to answer your question, under healthy conditions AP should take between ~1.5 hrs (>30% H2O2) and ~72 hrs (3% H2O2)
to form. Yes, concentrations do make a big difference, but not as big as you said. If it takes much longer or much shorter you
are doing somethign wrong.
DBSP August 31st, 2003, 09:09 AM

When I use 35% H2O2 5h is about enaugh. I've reacted it longer without getting any increased yields.
But one time when I made some AP with 19.5% H2O2 something must have gotten really fucked up because after 2 days
there was only as small ammount of AP formed. After a weak the yield was the expected but thats about at least 4 days
longer than normal. Same retios was used as always, same cooling too.
Thing is you never know about chemestry, sometimes things get fucked up, it's just the way it is..
T_Pyro August 31st, 2003, 12:21 PM

metafractal, what volume, and what normality (basically, how many equivalents) of sulfuric acid do you use? I am not using "a
riddiculously low concentration H2O2 (<2%)". What I use is 6% w/V (That's 6gm H2o2 per 100 ml of H2O). If anything's wrong,
it can only be the acid. I'm using 0.1 N , 100ml HCl (That makes it 0.01 equivalents). What concentration do you suppose I
should be using? I use 100 ml acetone (100%) , 400 ml H2O2 (6%)
DBSP August 31st, 2003, 02:37 PM

Well first of all you are using too little acetone, 150ml is more apropriate. 400x0,06=24, 24x06=144ml.
I always use 30% HCl as catalyst, 10% of total ammount of reactants(acetone+H2O2).

But you should probably be using more because of your low conc H2O2.
THErAPIST September 1st, 2003, 03:11 AM

100 ml 25% h202
70ml 100% acetone
50ml 32% HCL
I react my mixture in a bowl of cold water with a few ice cubes. I let it sit in the ice bath until all the acid has been stirred in
and then I let it sits in the ice bath for another 5 minutes. It is then taken out and left at whatever temperature it is outside at
the time for another 50 minutes or so. My reaction is done is an hour. The bottle is usually full of a pretty dense mess of AP
which has been stored for periods of 6 weeks dry just to see what would happen. It seemed to be just as powerful, just as
stable as the stuff that was made in the freezer (which took 3 days), the reaction was faster, and I got a better yield when it
wasn't in the freezer.
Before anyone decides to tell me how stupid I was to store it dry; it was set in a plastic jar with a rubber lid that did not screw
on or snap on in the woods in the spring... I also opened it up with a tent pole just incase it went off. After a good bit of
poking and prodding I found it to be just as stable as it was when I put it there.
I'm mainly saying this just so that people dont think that AP can't be made quickly with high yield and desireable properties. I
guess it just depends on the experimenters preferences.
Am I the only one who can say I've tested the difference between trimer and dimer?
And to Nope... Many people have trouble with Mega's AP synth but they have no trouble at all with other peoples synths.
Experiment. DO NOT use my synth though as you'd likely kill yourself. I sat there watching my AP reaction the whole time to
make sure it didnt runaway, and most people would call me extremely insane/ mongloidish for purposly making AP at an
elevated temp.
ALENGOSVIG1 September 1st, 2003, 06:21 AM

Awhile ago i did an experement making AP at elevated temperatures. I heated 35 ml of H2O2/acetone until it was almost
boiling, and added 5 ml of 28% HCl. Within less than 30 seconds some AP formed and the solution became cloudy with
precipitate. Within a couple minutes the solution was boiling, and emitting some very nasty fumes which had an unpleasant
tear gas effect to say the least. The AP which had formed was no longer visible, as it must have dissolved/sublimated. I
placed a tupperware container over the beaker and within a few minutes there was a thin layer of recrystallized AP coating the
inside of the tupperware container.
When the reaction subsided. There were small droplets of oil (molten AP:D) on the surface. After the solution returned to room
temperature, a cake of solid AP was floating on the surface of the liquid.
THErAPIST September 1st, 2003, 06:43 AM

EEEEEWWW! See that's happened to me once but when it happened to me I was using 50% H2O2 and the beaker slipped out
of my hand pouring it all in at once (I was adding the H2O2 to the acid/ acetone instead of acid to the H2O2/acetone) It
almost immedietly started spewing some sort of clearish gas with an ungodly amount of heat. I was in a bad place with it so I
attempted to move to a better place and got a face full of that gas. I couldnt open my eyes for a good 2 hours without them
burning so badly that I wanted to close them again. Sad thing was every time I closed em they started to hurt more. Possibly
the worst night I had had in years :(
I didn't get a solid cake of AP then though. I got an oil that was on the bottom of the rest of the liquid that was still in the
flask (which wasn't flammable)
I know we're starting to stray off topic a bit , (it might help the new guy though?) but did you do any testing with your dimer
compared to trimer? Stability? Performance?
T_Pyro September 1st, 2003, 08:36 AM

Thanks guys, next time, I'll jus use more of acetone & more acid. :) DBSP, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the acetone and
the peroxide react in equimolar ratios? That's what I gathered while looking through the reactions stated on Megalomania's
page on AP. I calculated the amount of acetone that I would require for 400ml 6% H2O2, and it turned out to be about 76ml,
so I use 100 ml since that's the amount in the bottle anyway, and I thought an excess of reactants would enable the reaction
to proceed to completion.
ALENGOSVIG1, when you said "elevated temperatures", what would be the actual temperature? 90*C? I've never made AP at
such high temperatures- any idea what the melting point of AP is? Also, in what form does it exist in the liquid state? Does it
still exist as a dimer/trimer, or does the chain get broken? THErAPIST, the "oil" that you found at the bottom of the reaction
vessel, what exactly was it? Pure AP? Some sort of AP solution in acetone? Did it crystalize out? If so, what was its stability
like? Sorry for all the questions, but this is the first time I'm hearing of liquid AP:confused:
THErAPIST September 1st, 2003, 02:01 PM

I'm not completely sure what that oil was that I got. I tried a flame test and it didn't catch on fire so I collected it in a film can
and put a blasting cap in there... didn't do a damn thing besides break the film can. I simply had a runaway reaction. I've
been told that the oil which was produced was most likely oxidised acetone but I thought that acetone couldnt be oxidised
anymore :confused:
I'm not positive as to how hot ALEN's reaction was but I'm guessing in the range of 70 to 80C. Ive also read that the melting
point of AP is a whole 20 degrees or so below the decomposition temp. Leave it to the retarded arse terrorist/ suicide bomber
fags to try and cast AP:rolleyes:
The AP at an elevated temp would be dimer though. As far as I know AP cannot exist in a liquid state unless you're trying to
cast it/ kill yourself.
Mumble September 1st, 2003, 02:49 PM

AP melts a little below 100 degrees. I believe it is something along the lines of 90 to 95. Megalomania has it listed at 91. I
don't really plan on finding the exact value personally.
I wouldn't imagine the Acetone/H2O2 mix would go much above 70 without boiling. Pure acetone
boils at 56 degrees. I'm not exactly sure how much the boiling points are changed by each other, but 70 seems pretty
reasonable to me.
T_Pyro September 3rd, 2003, 12:18 AM

THErAPIST- Could the oil have been some higher alkane? You said that the oil was most probably oxidized acetone... Mebbe
the -CO- group got oxidized to CO2, leaving 2 methyl radicals, which could combine to form a higher alkane?
THErAPIST September 3rd, 2003, 03:03 AM

My chemistry book doesnt say much about alkanes, But from what I just read it seems to be quite possible some of the
acetone could have been converted to a higher alkane. According to my book there has to be pretty high temperatures for
alkanes to change. In this case the reaction wouldnt have to be all THAT high i dont think since acetone has a boiling point of
a whole 57, and the reaction that made the oil was most certainly a very exothermic reaction.
User Name September 8th, 2003, 12:25 AM

While most everyone else is off topic... I have a question that concerns HE's but i didnt want to start a new thread in the HE's
section because im a "newb", and yes i have searched the forum from A-Z and found nothing helpful for my embarasing
situation.
My question is this, I have made APAN using my tried and true method of making AP and then simply adding finley powder
furtilizer grade Ammonium nitrate. There is no wax or additives in the AN. the APAN ratio is 1:1
I have tried several times to detonate APAN but everytime i get the same results, a high pitched AP detonation sound but no
thud or smoke from AN detonation. There is also AN left at the site. I have used as much as 400 grams in one charge. my
charges are electronicaly detonated with 10g AP dets and burried underground a few inches in a 2inch by 2 inch PVC pipe with
end caps.
my dets work very well so its not that.
Any opinions on what the problem might be would be grately appretiated.
THErAPIST September 8th, 2003, 01:50 AM

All I can say is that your AN needs to be extremely finely powdered and extremely dry. The optimum AN to AP ratio if im not
mistaken is 12% AP to 88% AN by weight. Are you pressing your APAN into the tubes or are you just simply letting it set loosly
inside the pvc with the det sitting ontop of the mix?

I have tried them pressed and unpressed with the det in the very center. and yes the optimum ratio is 12:88 AP/AN but 1:1 i
thought would have a better chance of detonating the AN
I have a huge (1 gallon) batch of Acetone/H202/hydrochloric acid in my freezer. This amount normaly gives me about 5 film
canisters full of completely dried AP. But this time, there is a small layer of liquid on the top of the batch. it isnt as cloudy as
the rest, almost looks like water....any ideas on what it might be?
thx

Well you said you added it, im sure you mixed it but did you mix it well? Use AN right out of the oven well wait for it to cool at
least. If the confinement is stronger than there will be better chance of a full detonation, keep in mind what you use for a
container also is the fragmentation that is going to fly at you.

My PVC container for confinment is underground, and my AN is very well mixed but i didnt dry it in the oven. i live in Arizona
and it was 108 degrees out yesterdy. thats an average temp with no humidty so i just simply lay the AN on some aluminum
foil out in the sun. seems as dry as can be when i add it.
well ill keep testing thx again guys.

oh and just soemthing ive noticed...AP wont synthesize if you get the mixture too cold (around -10c i think) it doesnt freeze it
just stops making AP.

Quote: "AP wont synthesize if you get the mixture too cold (around -10c i think) it doesnt freeze it just stops making AP."
Whenever I let my ice bath get too cold (less than 0*C) then the reaction mixture does starts freezing, and when it is thawed
after that, the yeilds are dramatically reduced. That is probably due to the destruction of the peroxy linkage in H2O2 once the
ice crystals start forming. Are you sure you have the temperature right?
Cyclonite September 8th, 2003, 12:45 PM

Out of the 2 forms of AP, is there really a difference to the point of it being noticeably more hazardous or powerful? The synth
takes so much less time and gives a better yield with a moderate temp.
Anthony September 8th, 2003, 03:35 PM

I appreciate the heat of the Arizona climate, but I think it still isn't enough.
AN really needs at least an hour spread out in an oven set to at least 100*C. Obviously you can't subject AP to this treatment.
I don't see any advantage to mixing the AN into the AP solution. You can get it intimately mixed enough by simply diaper
mixing the dry components. Considering what a royal pain AN is to dry, I'd never get it needlessly wet.
In short, I think that mixing your AN into your AP solution is stopping you from having your AN sufficiently dry to detonate.
User Name September 8th, 2003, 09:37 PM

ok thanks for your help. and yes im sure my temp is right. it wont start forming ice untiil it gets well below 0c and i have not
noticed a difference in "power" or sensitivity in AP. ive made it without cooling at all and it seems the same (yes i tested it) as
long as you wash it...its the same (from what ive noticed)
has anyone ever had washed AP sudenly detonate for no reason?
where might i get 30% H2O2??? i cant find it anywhere!

The batch i have in the freezer right now did soemthing strange...i took it out to stir it (i always stir it after 12 hours) and then
i put it back in, well the AP disapered! im pist cause my huge (one gallon) batches cost 10$ each.
wha'ts the bigest AP charge any of you have detonated? ive done 200g at a time, i was only 25 feet away behind a huge
boulder with eye and ear pertection. WOW
DBSP September 9th, 2003, 10:06 AM

Please put your location in your profile it makes it easier to help you. I assume your from the states so try hydrophonic or
pool acessory stores, thay normally carry 27% H2O2 as baquacil. Had you searched you would have easily found that on your
own, so in the future search before posting questions that is deemed to have been discussed in the past, most things have
been discussed by now.
The 12% AP to 88% AN ratio is the OBd APAN ration, however there is nothing that says it's the optimum ratio for APAN. What
the optimal ratio is depends on what the APAN is to be used for, demolition, eart moving, cheap axplosive to play with etc. The
less AP the cheaper and less brisant, the more AP the more expensive and brisant it gets. So it's a question of what it is to be
used for.
This thread has really gone wild, the last part of it should in my oppinion be moved to the APAN topic as it more or less is what
has been discussed the last posts.
And I have no idea to why your AP dissolved when you stirred the mixture.
I had a though the other day, perhaps a new AP topic could be started in the WC where people could discuss whatever they
like concerning AP since more or less all AP topics soon change to APAN or where to get H2O2 topics.

sorry about changing the subject a little but everyone else did and i couldnt find any other threads on APAN.
I live in arizona, USA. ill put that in my profile.
i have called around for H2O2 but with no prevail.
i just checked the AP batch that desolved and its still gone. i had about 5 film canisters of ap in the bottom of the jar, then i
stir it and it disaperes! :) lol

So you couldn't find -->THIS<-- (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115) thread then :confused:
A 528 reply APAN topic.
A SEARCH (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/search.php?s=) for 'APAN' yielded 97 hits.
As I said most things have been discussed and will be found with a simple search, maby just not right away.
If you haven't read the rules read them or reread them, read the sticky thread in the water cooler if you haven't read that one
yet as well.
T_Pyro September 9th, 2003, 04:13 PM

"The batch i have in the freezer right now did soemthing strange...i took it out to stir it (i always stir it after 12 hours) and then
i put it back in, well the AP disapered! "
That happened to me once, but the reason for that was that I had left the mixture in the freezer for too long, so it froze up,
the AP crystals got destroyed, and when I thawed it, all I was left with was a turbid mixture (which turned transparent after a
few hours), and a lot of bubbles.
When your AP "disappeared", did you notice anything unusual about the reaction mixture? eg. Formation of bubbles/ the
mixture turning colourless etc. If you had bubbles forming, then most probably your H2O2 just decomposed to give O2 and
H20 - that happens at elevated temperatures, or even in the presence of a catalyst. What did you stir the mixture with? It is
possible that it could catalysed /initiated the decomposition of the peroxy linkage.

yes there was still alittle AP and it had bubbles in it.
yes i have read the rules and im sorry. i didnt do a search i only looked at the threads from the last 30 days.
it wont happend again.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > DOES ANYO NE KNO W W H E R E TO GET
KNo3 IN HK ??
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View Full Version : DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO GET KNo3 IN HK ??
mushyfung August 25th, 2003, 01:25 AM

i live in Hong Kong, a nd i was wondering if any of u pyros live here too... its awefully hard to get chemicals here and its illegal
to m ake fireworks.... fire works were banned ages ago,.... the only chemical i can get - that ive found so fa r is potassium
permanaganate... which is sold in pharmacies (in tsim tsa tsui east) and dispensaries (in causeway bay) - if u live in hong
kong u'll understand where i'm talking about. if anyone here lives in hong kong and knows where to get po tassium nitrate
plea s e p o s t h e r e o r s e n d m e a n e m a i l - m ushyfung@hotm ail.com . . . i h a v e m a d e m any batches of flash powder and
explosives with jam jars which have killed dozen ofs trees in discover bay.. lol its rly powerful..
nbk2000 August 25th, 2003, 01:41 AM

DOES ANYONE KNOW THAT TYPING IN ALL C APS IS CONSIDERED SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET?!
Fucking 'tard. :rolleyes:
End topic, en d newbie.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Danger Ap!
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View Full Version : Danger Ap!
knowledgehungry September 9th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Ok everyone here has stressed just how important it is to be careful with AP, but I feel that i need to reitirate the importance
of treating it with EXTREME caution. Andrey Kolyada an associate of mine is now lacking 2 fingers on his left hand due to our
fickle friend, the AP detonator and the main charge he was inserting the det into exploded, he suffered a broken rib due to a
piece of shrapnel hitting him. He was tapping the det into place with a hammer then it went off. This relates to the "Fuck Im
done" thread but i felt it deserved its own topic, maybe there should be a sticky thread with every known accident involving AP
we have. I really dont want this to happen to anyone else. Fortunately he had the presence of mind to get rid of his hardrive
and all incriminating evidence (because there was none of course ;))before he called an ambulance, so no charges are being
pressed and he is currently in my organic chemistry class.
0EZ0 September 9th, 2003, 11:08 PM

Poor kid. But really hammering an AP det into a main charge? It's not surprising that he got an ass whomping. Lucky it was
not any worse.
Good to hear that he had the sense to make sure that his computer security was in place. Did he completely remove the hard-
drive from his computer? Or did he wipe it using a program? It would be interesting to know.
My regards to your 'associate'.

He physically removed it.
ALENGOSVIG1 September 9th, 2003, 11:36 PM

He was tapping the det into place with a hammer then it went off
I have absolutely no sympathy for this kid. People like this are DANGEROUS to themselves and others, and definately
shouldnt be playing with explosives.
I mean, i would never treat ap like that in my wildest dreams. I hold dets by the fuse/wires while carrying them and treat them
very grently.

remember that not all AP is the same. test each batch for sensitivity to presure, impact, and ability to DDT. my AP i have right
now is impresively unsensative. takes a nice blow from a hammer(enbough to fuckin HURT a finger.) how damn hard was he
hitting it and why was he?

It's amazing that a person could have the presence of mind to dispose of their HDD after having their fingers blown off, but
not have had the good sense to NOT HIT A DETONATOR WITH A HAMMER, causing the loss of said digits in the first place.
:confused:
How could you NOT know that doing so would be a VERY BAD idea? You PUSH, not WHACK, a detonator into place.
As such, this guy is a darwin award candidate.
Also, he got a busted rib from where a piece of shrapnel hit him? Must have been a mighty weak explosive, and poorly built at
that. Anything I've built would have either blown me into pink mist or the shrapnel shred me to kibble, not busted a rib and
nip off a few fingers.
EP September 10th, 2003, 02:11 AM

Here is another AP-related accident people should see:
http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum19/HTML/004355.html
You might say "haha, somebody from totse got hurt!" but I think it's important to try and figure out why WET AP putty
detonated like it did to try and keep it from happening in the future.
DBSP September 10th, 2003, 03:45 AM

I've only got three things to say:
1) You have to be fucking stupid to hammer an AP det into a main charge.
2) Attempting such a thing is mostly the result of lacking knowledge. Had he known that it doesn't take more than one AP
crystal detonationg to set the whole charge off he might not have chosen to hammer it into the main charge.
3) Had he done what everyone should do before starting off with explosives, namely gaining knowledge by reading averything
there is to read on the subject before attempting it himself he would still have all his fingers present.
Originally posted by DBSP
1) You have to be fucking stupid to hammer an AP det into a main charge.
You said it.

I'm curious, though- what did your "associate" attribute this accident to? Did the cops get called in at all?
Al Koholic September 10th, 2003, 02:53 PM

In my book, putting any amount of faith into certain explosives (IE: organic peroxides, NI3NH3, etc) is begging for trouble.
The probability of having an accident, even without apparent cause, increases drastically as the sensitivity of the explosive
rises just a bit. Honestly I would love to see everyone stop making things like AP, HMTD and the like.
The problem is that the chemicals are soooooooooooo easy to get, you need next to NO specialized equipment, you don't
have to know anything about chemistry (see above totse story) to come up with some damned stupid ideas about factors
affecting explosive sensitivity, ad nauseum. People want to see that bang right away without taking the maannnnnnnny small
steps (in a better direction) they should have been taking. Making acetone peroxide is like telling the world that you are too
impatient to bother with anything else (much less learning) and need to have your "explosive fix" this instant.
I just hope someone currently thinking that AP is "the shit!" will stop, think about it, read, then start buying the equipment
they need to make much safer things. Putting that kind of slow, meticulous, time and effort will lead you on a safer path in
the long run.
Don't make AP. AP is evil. You only like AP because of greed and impatience.
Nevermore September 11th, 2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Al Koholic
Don't make AP. AP is evil. You only like AP because of greed and impatience.
Well, i do not agree completely, AP is evil as much as HMTD, as much as mercury fulminate and so on..primaries are really
nasty things, but their sensitivity is needed, AP being a peroxide is sensitive and sometime can go into self decomposition,
even if i've never experienced (fortunately). But, thinking about other primaries, most of them are not well explained like this
one, this one requires no professional equipment, doesn't undergo in dangerous reactions during preparation and uses cheap
and easy to find ingredients...
Beside that, you can find information about it almost everywhere... what about the other primaries? i've had hard time finding
info about the double salts, and much more bout Hydrazine compounds...most of them are hard to prepare or require
controlled ingredients, not easy to find chemicals, professional equipment, or have a so bad yeld...
It could be good if it was available a list of primaries ordered by sensitivity, maybe explaining about the reactions too..
i've been not able to find it, and even in the most complete list i know (megalomania web) there are lotsa of missing ones..is
almost impossible to write a complete list, but i wonder if a list of the most common ones is available..

The major problem with AP is that it is extremely unpredictable, sometimes its insensitive as a drill sergeant other times its
like my girl during PMS.
kingspaz September 12th, 2003, 05:13 AM

and that is what catches people out. aswell as people who think they know everything making large batches because its easy.
silver double salts isn't much harder to make than AP. its a much better initiator and has quite similar sensitivity to lead azide
apart from its flame sensitivity which is much higher. this in my opinion makes it the ideal primary for us. i think people often
shy away from it because they don't understand the scraps of info they find. i agree that it is very hard to find any good info if
any. federoff vol 1 is the ONLY source of useful information i have found.
Al Koholic September 12th, 2003, 01:27 PM

I'm not a silver double salt buff but I believe that among primaries, DDNP is by far the best way to go. As far as primaries are
concerned it has low sensitivity to impact, flame, and must be confined tighly for any quantity less than about 5 grams to
make the DDT. I would love it if people here would use it more but theres always the easy way....
I am not going to even attempt to point out that hammering on a cap with DDNP would have resulted in any different
circumstances however. You just dont hammer on a cap, period.

Why don't you SEARCH and read the thread called "AP Beginners guide" that would answer all your questions?
Also, AP Putty is old, so old we don't talk about it anymore, having moved onto better things. Try SEARCHING the net for
information about it, eh? :p
serene September 12th, 2003, 08:04 PM

Its replies like this that really scare me into not wanting to progress onto explosives i havent worked with before. Although this
is the case I know that if i look in the archieves then i have a wealth of information that will hopefully guide me through each
process safely.
From posts like this i can see the dangers of many explosives when care and respect are not taken into account. I have a
friend who immediatly after making Black Powder wanted to move straight onto RDX. Although not fully criticising what he
wants to do, In my mind it is plain stupid to move onto something as high as that.
All i can say is that 'ignorance is not bliss'.
Craig
PS: Is this bad for a first post or is this an improvment to the usual newbie 'how do i make BP' sort of thread.

Actually RDX is a great explosive, if you can make it. AP is far more dangerous than RDX, and most primaries, just beacuase
something is more difficult to make does not mean it is more dangerous. Also if that was a bad post we would let you know,
your asking that question makes you look like a little kid searching for approval, and its kinda annoying, to me at least.

Not a bad post but not informative- At least your not talking about setting off some NG with a blackcat. If you can follow
directions and you have an understanding of what you are trying to do in a synth your good to go as long as you ALWAYS
respect the explosive. I love this hobby/work but if you become complacent it will kill or injure you at some point in time. Its
important to be comfortable but not complacent with making it as nervousness gives you a higher chance to fuck up, just don't
forget what it can do to you in less than a second you life is over.....If you follow these basic rules than there's little chance of
injury or death

Originally posted by Cyclonite
If you can follow directions and you have an understanding of what you are trying to do in a synth your good to go as long as
you ALWAYS respect the explosive.
True that cyclo, i think that its in some way the same like firearms, you treat it as if it was loaded (respect). I might be a
newby but i Have read a great deal about this matter (as well on this forum as in my books) and i certainly know better then
to hit a det with a hammer.
I think its very good these things are discussed too because this way people can learn from other peoples mistakes without
the messy side-effect of the empirical method:D.
I aint sayin' nothing about AP here, i've found another place ;)
dutch....
kingspaz September 15th, 2003, 06:31 PM

dutch, stop post whoring. that post was useless. its provides no information/advice so is useless.
from now on think before you post and think long and hard about it. you're walking very close to the edge of the cliff that is
HED.

Originally posted by kingspaz
dutch, stop post whoring. that post was useless. its provides no information/advice so is useless.
Kingspaz , could you please explain to me what you mean with post whoring? I'm just giving my opinion here, and trying to
show that its in a way the same with firearms, and the same thing can be said with other things too for example drugs.So i
dont know why you're attacking me, because I AM thinking about my posts.
kingspaz September 16th, 2003, 07:59 PM

i'm attacking you because your posts lack quality. small talk is reserved for the water cooler. now learn fast or die fast, simple
as that. don't come back with any apologies or answers. this thread has been polluted enough already.
edit: 'post whoring' could be found by searching. in short, it means you are replying to many, many threads with low quality
replies.

Post Whoring is also a HED offense. :D
If someone had read the rules, then they'd know what Post Whoring is, and not do it, but someone didn't and now they get to
pay the price. :p
Since he's no longer here...what does it matter.
zeocrash September 23rd, 2003, 02:33 PM

while we're on the topic of the dangers of AP, i'd like to bring up a recent accident at pfizer.
a lab assistant was recently injured in pfizer's michigan labs when the t-butyl hyroperoxide he was working with exploded. since
i have associates at pfizer i will be uploading internal reports and advisary documents about organic peroxides to the ftp when
it's back up.
just out of interest, does anyone know anything about t-butyl hydroperoxide, i'm not familiar with the name i'm afraid
vulture September 23rd, 2003, 03:13 PM

t-butyl hydroperoxide refers to tertiary butyl hydroperoxide. Tertiary butyl is merely 3CH3 groups bonded to a central carbon
atom. Hydroperoxide is simply OOH.
..........CH3...........
............|.............
..CH3---C---OOH
............|..............
...........CH3
EDIT: Organic hydroperoxides are often used as catalysts in polymerization reactions.
Hang-Man September 28th, 2003, 04:50 PM

I find there is a direct relation to how long I leave the AP in the acetone/Acid solution and how sensitive it is. Has anyone else
noticed this? am I just an idiot? If I take my AP out after 1 hour I have AP than can only be detonated by flame. Im using
100% HCL, 35% H2O2 and pure acetone. maby that has something to do with it?
vulture September 28th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Let me get this straight, you're using 100% HCl, so you're bubbling HCl gas through your reaction solution?
zeocrash September 28th, 2003, 06:50 PM

no stupid a 100% hcl solution :P
where exactly do you get 100% hcl solution, or do you make it yourself
Macgyver September 28th, 2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by zeocrash
no stupid a 100% hcl solution :P
where exactly do you get 100% hcl solution, or do you make it yourself
There is no such thing as a 100% HCl solution. Commercially it's not sold over 37%....
100% HCl is a gas, not a liquid, not sure how much higher than 37% you can go, but it's not much....
Try smelling 37% HCl and you'll see that even that readily wants to turn into a gas!
Sarevok September 28th, 2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by zeocrash
no stupid a 100% hcl solution
A solution is a mixture of solvent and solute(s). If the HCl is 100%, then there is nothing mixed with it, there is no solution, it
is a gas. If the HCl is dissolved in water, there is a solution, it is a liquid, but it must be under 100%. So, Hang-Man is
bubbling HCl through his acetone/H2O2, or he is using concentrated (but not 100%) HCl.
Edit: There is always someone quicker than I. :(

I m wo rking from an old conta iner of 'Muriatic' acid which doesn t list its concentration, so I titrated it found it to be about 100%
(there is obviously some error which I attribute to bad equipment) It gives off heavy fumes and hollows out pennies quite fast
so I do believe it is nearly 100% :) I treat it as pure HCL and my reactions always have pretty accurate yields.:D

There is no such thing as a 100% HCl solution. Commercially it's not sold over 37%....
This was added to the thread while I was typing my other reply. Had I read it, I would have redone the lab before posting
such obviously fla wed in fo. My acid can t be nearly 100%, which means I must have done someth ing very wrong in that
titration lab... I shall redo it soon and find out what the actual concentration is. But if we could get back to my original
question, has anyone noticed a relation between the amount of time you let the AP sit in the acetone/acid solution and its
sensitivity?
P.S.: Perhaps someone with a copy of the Merck Index could look up HCL and find out its solubility?

A saturated solution of HCl at 20*C contains 42% HCl by wt, and the "concentrated" acid sold commercially normally contains
38% HCl by wt (that's about 12M). 100% HCl, as far as I know is just not sold. At STP, about 44.8 litres of HCl gas is soluble
in 100 ml water.
zeocrash September 29th, 2003, 05:04 AM

i realise that there is no such thing as thing as 100% HCl solution.
i was trying to make a witty mocking comment, damn, you are a humourless lot, i try to make a wisecrack and you think i'm
being serious
on another note, i'm not quite sure how you managed to get 100% from a titration. that's quite some error

Come on, it d o e s n t take 7 posts to say that HCL can t be that concentrated in a liquid form. As far as my AP experiences go I
did nt notice any huge difference in sensitivity, fro m what I u nderstand whe n chemicals with a higher concentration are used
the reaction takes less time resulting in larger crystals that are formed thus increasing sensitivity. HCL results in smaller
crystals, H2SO4 in larger.
zeocrash September 29th, 2003, 01:41 PM
H2SO4 results in more sensitive AP because it causes localised heating when it is added to the H2O2 acetone mixture, this
causes the production of more sensetive dimeric ap
Sir Dudalot September 29th, 2003, 07:52 PM

I don't think the localised overheating would apply to everyone who makes AP using H2SO4. It would depend on how much
they added at a time...unless your talking about extremely localised overheating. I always add my H2SO4 dropwise and about
4-5 mL at a time. I don't think H2SO4 dropped in individually will cause enough local overheating to form enough dimeric AP
to cause it's sensitivity to noticeable raise. I do like your idea however. If the batch was already close to 10*C then local
overheating could occur and form dimeric AP. I've also been thinking that since the AP doesn't form as soon as the acid
touches the solution that it wouldn't form the dimeric version because hardly any AP is formed the second that it's overheated.
It would mostly be formed at least a second or two after the "hot spot" has come back into equilibrium with the rest of the
solution.
I've never noticed that if you let it sit longer it's more sensitive. It doesn't seem like this would effect it any because all the
acid gets washed away at the end no matter what. It'd almost be better to let it sit for a little while longer so that any extra
acetone will evaporate increasing your yield. :D

Maby I'm missing something; but why would you use H2SO4 when HCL is much cheaper and easier to get? (where is everyone
getting their H2SO4 anyway?)
Sir Dudalot September 29th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Indeed it is much cheaper ($3 a gallon compared to 7$ for 1.5 L) but H2SO4 makes the reaction go much faster than HCl.
Also, I use 3% H2O2 so 31.45% HCl isn't going to help that much seeing as it's mostly water. I'm going to use HCl though
and compare reaction times using equal amounts (by volume).
With regards to where to get some handy-dandy sulfuric acid, in the words of NBK (am I allowed to do that?).....do a search.
Oh, and if you did do a search and didn't come up with anything, I pity you.

A few days ago I "found" 5 gal of 98% H2SO4, I had no place to keep it so I poured .5L of it in a plastic bottle. Big mistake,
the H2SO4 ate through the bottle and onto the upholstery of the vehicle I was using. All the acid iv used came in plastic, I
guess it was a different type. That took a while to clean up. So stop by Iraq, Ill give you 1 gal for free.
badmilk October 4th, 2003, 02:13 AM

He Hammered It?
Chirst, he's lucky to be alive dude...

ya, it must have been a VERY shitty explosive. If I hammered any of my explosives, it would have resulted in the hammer
being sent back through my head at like MACH 3.

Ah, done a lot of tests with explosive propelled hammers have we? And also concluded that quantity of explosive used has
zero bearing on the effects?

think of the smalles t explosive you ve made th at required a d et. now imagine being close enou gh to touch it when it went off.
would you have survived?

Most of the explosives I have made are itty-bitty-teensy-weensy little things, barely larger than a cluster of atoms, so being
within arms reach isn't a problem when one detonates.
Maybe I'm being pedantic though? Well the size would then range from a particle a few microns in size up to maybe the size
of a grain of regular table salt. Despite the orders of magnitude greater amounts, I'm still not in trouble at arms length.
aikon October 6th, 2003, 05:21 PM

i did some research. he removed his harddisc?
Type "Andrey Kolyada" in the google search machine.
The Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2003/08/06/news/local/6466357.htm
"Tracts on making bombs found at site of explosion
A search by police and federal investigators of a house in Northeast Philadelphia where an explosion Monday injured an 18-
year-old resident turned up "written materials related to constructing a bomb" and various chemicals, including those used in
the formation of picric acid - an unstable explosive substance - police said yesterday.
Andrey Kolyada, of the 1900 block of Witler Street in Bustleton, ran from his house badly hurt after the 11:35 a.m. explosion,
suffering from multiple injuries, including extensive damage to his left arm and hand.
A spokesman at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital listed Kolyada in stable condition yesterday. Detectives said
investigators were considering lodging charges against Kolyada.
In a brief interview with agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Kolyada said he was trying to
"construct some sort of fireworks" when the explosion occurred, police said in a report. Detectives also confiscated a computer
hard drive, wiring, and other chemicals along with pieces of evidence consistent with making explosive devices. The blast
occurred in Kolyada's bedroom, police said. A school district spokesman said Kolyada graduated from Central High School in
June."
clearification:
This is just an online news article. I don't know if the information in this article is correct. Another forum member has
oppositional data on the
subject. I can't verify one of the theses above. Whatever happened, that's the way media reports about such incidents.

Don't Fuck with me, I talk to the kid practically everyday, he goes to my school, the newspaper was... *Gasps* WRONG!. Im
sorry but I KNOW what happened, dont quote some newspaper BS at me.
aikon October 7th, 2003, 10:53 AM

Well, it wasn't my intention to "fuck you". I know that over 90% in the media is crap, but that's not the issue. The main reason
i put this article in my post was to show how media reacts on such incidents.
I admit that I didn't make that clear enough in my post. Please take note that I'll edit the message and put a clarification
under the article as soon as possibile.
sauvin October 8th, 2003, 02:41 AM

What mass of AP would you be comfortable with to detonate in your kitchen? Size of a grain of table salt? A pea? Cigarette
filter?

sauvin, you dickhead. Why would anyone want to be comfotable detonating explosives in his/her own house? Your an idiot for
even asking that question. Also you said what mass would you be comfortable with, and then you said table salt, pea and a
cigarette filter - in case you don't know one is reffering to mass and one is reffering to volume so your questions is invalid.
With those volumes of AP assuming they are unpressed just light and fluffy crystals they would burn with a fire ball not
detonate. Thus meaning you would have to have some confinment, thus creating an AP cracker or blasting cap, thus making
you a n00b for thinking about detonating a blasting cap in my kitchen. The fucking kitchen is for cooking and preparing food
not setting off blasting caps!
So basicly your questions is:-
"What size blasting cap or cracker filled with AP would you feel coomfortable to detonate where you prepare your food? #6?#8?
"
nbk2000 October 8th, 2003, 06:50 AM

I once had about an ounce of AP deflagerate while I was letting it dry out on top of the stove (not on obviously!) when it
exploded when I slammed the oven door shut. I was about three feet away from it and the fireball was about a foot around
and at least a meter high.
I didn't even have time to flinch. Then I noticed a strange smell and noticed the last inch or so of my hair was crispied and my
eyebrows were burnt off! :eek:
If I had been leaning over it, I'd be blind and/or horribly disfigured from severe burns.
So I'd be comfortable with a gram or less exploding, unconfined, and handled with tongs or some other remote-handling.
And certainly not on purpose.

I wil never deny being a n00b, particularly since explosives are not actually of great interest to me. I fully understand that a
reasonably intelligent man does not shit where he eats, but I WAS looking for some ball-park SWAG (silly wild-ass guess) as
to what kind of VOLUME would not be perceived as excessive if it SHOULD detonate or deflagrate in the house (and I'm
charitably assuming nobody does this kind of thing in a bedroom).
DBSP October 10th, 2003, 06:22 AM

I doo.
The room next to mine could be considered a bit of a workshop, my brother often works on his MC there and I use the room
when working with things that needs tooling and a insensitive place to be with it.
In that room I've detonated charges many times. I've got a wodden box that I prepare with phone books and similar stuff
suited for the charge. The charges are however only small sub gram charges. Suchs as testing small ammounts of primaries.
After the charges are detonated I open the wondows and start a fan to get rid of the smoke.
This is always done under strict supervision though, I would never do anythting that I know would be dangerous.

Can you give a little bit of information on what kind of explosive "Andrey" was making? Because i dont understand why he
would need to use a hammer on blasting cap...
metal dragon October 19th, 2003, 08:45 PM

He is just an idiot I guess as it has been said many times he must have been totally stupid to hit a blasting cap with a
hammer.
telecard October 31st, 2003, 01:10 PM

I have to agree, hitting a cap with a hammer is no way 2 treat it.But in terms of confinement dont underestimate how little is
neccesary to facilitage detonation. I had a small amount between my right index and thumb (Yeah i know-silly F**k) and it jus
detonated for no apparent reason. I was lucky and only lost about a centimeter of each finger but i am never f**king with
such unstables again and i dont advise ne one elso 2. lucky livin in a third world country in africa no one actualy asks any
questions so the parents are the only ones to deal with. :-(
Nevermore October 31st, 2003, 01:31 PM

uhmm strange really.
what kinda primary you were holding between you finger, and why you did that?
Trinitrotoluene November 1st, 2003, 08:46 PM

One thing I had noticed with AP is even if you leave it in a pile in open air, and dried, it still tends to sublime forming the di,
and mono AP on other crystals, those tend to become large crystals. As three days passed, I did see alot of crystlas 2mm
across, and even a few crystals thats 4mm across. If its a newly made batch the AP tend to be a loose powder, but it turns into
pretty dangerous crystals. Must be careful not to break any of those crystlas, which may cause a detonation.
bobo November 2nd, 2003, 10:03 AM

How big are your piles? I have small piles when I dry AP and often for more than 3 days but never see anything the size you
describe.
By the way, is the sublimation of AP and formation of more dangerous crystals due to mainly mono and dimer sublimating or
is the TCAP breaking down into these more dangerous molecules?
Efraim_barkbit November 2nd, 2003, 10:13 AM

Trinitrotoluene, How do you distinct the different isomers of AP from each other?
From your post, it seems like you look at the crystal size to get the info. IRC, thats not possible. But maybee that is only a
miss in sentance construction or something, and that you actually have a working method?
Trinitrotoluene November 2nd, 2003, 04:39 PM

Seeing from my pile of AP it's approx... 1cm in height, and 4 inches across left on a coffee filter. At first there was 40 grams of
dry AP after 4 days in open air, I weighed it again and there's 30 grams. From what I heard about never store AP in a enclosed
container it will sublime and recrystalize into the di and mono isomers, and opening the container will cause an explosion, I
think the reason why is because those tend to be large crystals, and they are broken. I had reports of people who did an AP
synthesis at higher temperature, which in theory is suposed to form more of the less stable di and mono isomers, they tend to
get those large crystals.
After my AP synthesis, I tend to get a very fluffy powder, the temperture is kept very low, the percursers are put into the
freezer and chilled to -10*C and added the HCl, then back into the freezer. But over time, as stored I see large crystals, I
think those are the di and mono isomers seeing on the crystal size, and how AP behaves when left in a jar with a cap.I've also
heard reports from other people who stored AP for an extended period of time, over two weeks and reported getting very large
crystals. AP is fairly volitile, for that reason that distinct smell given off.
Efraim_barkbit November 2nd, 2003, 05:37 PM

When I synthesize AP, the crystal size depends on the precipitation time.(more acid --> shorter precipitation time)
A synth with cooled precursors, and in a water bath, produced larger crystals than a synth when I used room temperature
precursors, and no cooling but with proportionally twice the amount of acid.
The "cooled" synth never got over 15 *C, but the uncooled one got to around 40degrees.
The warmer synth produced a meallike powder, wilst the cold one produced crystals about half the size of sugar crystals.
So with your "crystal size" theory, I should have gotten more of the dimeric form at the low temperature synth, and more
trimeric at the high temperature one. Thats the opposite to the other teory you mention.
maybee worth mentioning, the warmer synt was much smaller then the colder one, but I dont think that matters.
IRC, the explosion hazard if you store AP in jars with screw on lid, comes from AP recrystalising between the threads, and that
the friction from unscrewing the lid causes the AP to ignite.
bobo November 6th, 2003, 06:38 AM

Even as I was comtemplating the use of HMTD as replacement for AP I made an batch of AP with a new bottle of acetone.
Temperature jumped immediately, before any acid being present. This scared me a bit because everything was like around 0
degrees when I started and usually mixing acetone and H2O2 doesn't result in ay reaction. One other thing is I used HCl
instead of H2SO4, but this was added later and couldn't affect the initial jump.
After a while I got crystals allright but they were mounted to the wall of my vessel. Before, they always had been powder in
solution, nice and fine. When I removed the crystals, I saw them be much larger than I was used to see. The meallike powder
Efraim_barkbit describes was all the AP I knew, until now.
I have yet to whack the crystals with a hammer to test their instability but I must say I don't like the different batches problem
of AP. This may definetely cause me to shift to HMTD for good although only because double salts and DDNP require
chemicals that are not available readily...
One different AP related topic: in the synth there are a number of products possible, the dimer resulting from intramolecular
rearrangement of a intermediate. According to a publication (Milas, N. A. Golubovitch, A., JACS, 1959, 3361) both dimer and
trimer result from a catalyzed intramolecular rearrangement where the concentration of the intermediate leading up to dimer
or trimer is kinetically important together with the catalyst. Because the presence of these precursors depends on the
availability of H2O2 and acetone, the balance will shift towards dimer as the concentration of H2O2 and acetone becomes
lower. What do you think?
Nevermore November 6th, 2003, 08:26 AM

mixing Acetone and H2O2 causes some heat, with 15% or more H2O2 is very noticeable, being acetone an easy volatile fluid i
suggest using pre chilled fluids and mix them slowly possibly in an ice bath. The HCL should be pre chilled too and added only
when the temp is low enough.
Leaving the reaction vessel at least at 0C for 8-12 hours untill all the precipitate has been formed is advisable..when i didn
not insure long time chilling i experienced big cristals and bubbles being developed from the fuids that entrapted all the cristal
and formed a foamy layer on top..
Trinitrotoluene November 6th, 2003, 09:43 PM

SWIM had two different piles of AP, it seems like the small pile after a week had passed still haven't found any large crystals.
But the largere pile containing 35 grams of AP crystals seem to form within a few days. Perhaps in larger piles there's more
crystals, and they tend to sublime more, since there's more crystals present.
telecard November 7th, 2003, 05:15 AM

It was tatp
Advisory December 16th, 2003, 12:58 AM

This is madness. AP is something that shouldn't be messed with unless you know 100% what the F**k your doing.
Who in their right mind HAMMERS the Det into the Charge, and does it AT HOME! Jeez! People that have no idea what the hell
they're mesing with is who.
No wonder the poor bastard lost fingers and suffered other injuries.
But at the end of the day we all started off somewhere. Unfortunatly his start obviously wasn't too successful. Sympathy goes
out to the idiot n00b.
(if this requires editing please say)
_-Advisory-_
Third_Rail December 18th, 2003, 07:59 PM

I've always figured that if I stay aware and observe all safety rules around HEs and LEs, I'll never have a problem. In a year
and a half, I have yet to even have a slight accident other than spilling a few grams of thermite where I didn't want it (on the
floor).
So, in my mind, all explosives are super-sensitive, and should be treated thusly; as NBK said, everything that I make will turn
me into a pink mist, which I'd rather not be. Whether I be making and using RDX or Hg fulminate as a primary, I observe
strict safety procedures such as: everything should be done outside or in a workshop where I have no distractions, nothing
should be done on rainy/snowy/windy days, no heat or flame sources while working with LEs or HEs, and treat all HEs like
unstable mental patients.

About accidents and AP's instability,
there are a few constants I noted:
-AP can explode if dried over a lamp

reason: AP is highly volatile. AP's vapors may ignite when in contact with a hot body like a lamp
and propagate the detonation to the solid hot mass beneath the lamp.
-AP can explode if stored at ambient temperature for long periods of time
reason: AP is highly volatile. It can sublimate and form very large crystal with a lot of internal stresses. Such crystals may even
self crack and detonate. This problem of large crystals is common to many primary explosives.
-AP might (rumors) explode when subject to human heat (fingers..)

reason: heating an organic peroxide in presence of organic contaminants is always a bad idea.
All of this has one constant: HEAT.

AP must never be allowed to heat , never, ever.
Period.
McGyver January 12th, 2004, 02:26 PM

AP vapor? AP does vaporize, but this process takes weeks.
The lamp would ignite the AP, only because the heat coming from the lamp will heat up the crystals.

Inverse, that was a pretty shitty post. What you said that wasn't wrong, was redundant.
I've made allot of AP recently and it has been amazingly stable and powerfull, shattering copper pipeing and .223 rifle
caseings with ease. I use 35% H2O2, ~30% HCl, and ~pure acetone. Chill all reactants and keep it in a salt/ice bath (my most
recent batch was kept going outside, in sub-zero temps, it worked the best). I get a slurry in about 3-5 hours, with AP forming
in less than one. I have never had AP go off without me wanting it to. The only problem I have with it is getting it really dry.
Should I post pics?

Hang-Man,
almost 7 years ago when I made my last batch of AP I developed my own procedure: 10ml 30% H2O2, 7ml pure acetone, 5ml
30% HCl. Everything, including the vessel, is at -25C. H2O2 and Acetone a quickly mixed then, before they start to heat, all of
the HCl is added.
The temperature suddenly jumps to 5-10C, so the plastic vessel has to be quickly cooled with water and ice.
After a few seconds the mixture becomes foggy, after a minute it's almost all filled with AP and still liquid. After 3 minutes it
has the consistency of a slurry. After 10 minutes the reaction is complete and the mixture won't move anymore unless shaken
hard.
Evetrything is washed with clear water 2 times, then filtered and washed 3 more times.
After that water is squeezed out and the fine powder is left dry in open air taking care to do it during winter time. After 3 days
the powder is dry.
I'll report some data about stability: AP when stored at -30C is perfectly stable and non-volatile.
A batch of it has been kept at -30C for more than 2 years. After such a long storage, the crystals shape didn't change and it
still was a fine powder like the first day.
Its properties didn't change at all, and it still performed as expected.
A different batch, about 0.1 grams, was used to make the following mix:
60% AP
20% KClO3
20% O=C(NH2)2.HNO3 (Urea Nitrate)
this mixture is unstable but shows extreme brisance and sensitivity to spark initiation.
This has been made as a test of an unstable and known-to-beincompatible mix.
This mixture, which was my own idea and was called by me AKN-6040 has been stored for a year at -30C. It showed no signs
of decomposition and instability and retained its properties.
10mg of it when initiated by a fast 300mJ spark did punch a hole on a 5mm think glass plate.
it has been quite interesting, but since then I lost most of my interest in chemistry.
Anyway, it has been interesting to find so much people interested on this fascinating subject.
heh, hope this post is less shittier than that one

That post is far less shitty than the last. But how are you keeping things at -30 for 2 years?
inverse January 13th, 2004, 07:17 PM

I forgot it in a freezer.
how lame...

I would imagine low tempertaure freezer would keep it -30 for 2 years. My old freezer on the lowest setting got down to -25
and that was an old 10 year old one, they probably come much lower than that today.

hmm
there's another chance: that my termometer wasn't precise enough at that temperature:\
I'm sure about one thing, tho. Apart from a 3-4 hours blackout each year due to thunderstorms, that freezer worked
continuosly.
Nevermore February 4th, 2004, 06:51 PM

Well, i've been storing explosives in freezer for rather long time, up to 1 year, AP doesn't show any significant change while
stored up to -15C, the same is true for MHN and double salts..
I had tried to store small chunk of jelled NG into freezer for a week and it stored perfectly, but my jello was rather hard.
Even Ng+Nc+MHN stores perfectly in freezer as long as is not pourable or mouldable. I wouldn't risk friction between the
cristals....
AsylumSeaker February 10th, 2004, 01:33 AM

My AP is ussualy a fine powder about as fine as icing sugar. I havn't left any long enough to witness the crystalisation you
guys talk about.
I have a question. There are always warnings about AP recrystalising in the threads of jars and detonating when the jar is
opened. Has this ever actually happened? I can't imagine it would be so bad if it did. Like one crystal might go off and even if
it did the wet submerged ap wouldn't detonate. When I leave the lid on I just shake the liquid around so that any of the stuff
in the threads gets wet and doesn't have much chance of detonatimg.
Blackhawk February 10th, 2004, 06:38 AM

I think the main factor in the whole jar-lid thing is that the AP in the container is dry and sublimes and then re-crytalises in the
threads, so if one crystal goes off they all do. I doubt there would be too much of a problem with AP under water as very little
would disolve in the water to crystalise out and the majority would be protected from detonation, still it is probably better for
there to be no chance at all.
acid February 11th, 2004, 08:36 AM

We know everything on the sensitivity of AP, but for your easy sysnthesis many people have incidents suffer Fatal Accidents...
I use AP im my detonators for some explosivre, bur its not the best prymary explosive for many main charges... I prefer to
use Tetryl detonators but if isnt avaiable for you, remembers the following rules...
1 - Never make DicycloAcetonePeroxide, its most sensible that the TricycloAcotonePeroxide...

2 - Make your AP with diluted HLC, never with H2SO4 because with H2SO4 the temperature will rise and will form Dicyclo
Isomers, and your AP will be less powerfull and more sensible, and never leaves the temperature greatter than 10 c...
3 - The only way to store AP is under water, because other methods are dangerous too, as if you sore in a closed flask you
will take your hands off but this chemical is volatile and very sensible cristals will form on the cover and if you open it will
BOOOOMMMM... Store in the maximum per 2 weeks..
4 - See the compatibility list of AP before detonate other explosives, but in some cases you will only splater out the main
charge with AP explosion, in case of AN, see the blasting cap number needed for all explosives, and if AP cristal are total dryed
handle it more carefull too... and remenber, AP dont needs be confined to detonate, 1 gr of AP can take your fingers off...
A beauty and lethal primary explosive...

Acid, What happens with your AP after you store it for two weeks?
I really would like to know that, because a lot of people, especially newbies, keeps
making posts in the AP threads telling me how sensitive their AP becomes after about two weeks, but I have yet to see
anyone giving a good explanation about why.
acid February 11th, 2004, 12:58 PM

According with properties of this explosive, it's total insoluble in water in 300 C ou more, and it's the only safe mode to store
your AP cristals, but rebember to close the flask, because in first time i didnt close the flask, and 5 days after my cristals my
were full of dust, and i know that some component could cause some acident, because When I was to dry the cristal some
component undesired and strager could cause SELFDETONATION!!!!!!......
The sensitivity of the explosive are not midified for 2 weeks, and i not advise to do any type of experiences with this
explosive... Store only for 2 weeks, and follow the precautions described, and you will be fine...
In my conception, this safe mode to store AP is only util transport is necessary, because you can make easily 100 gr of AP in 4
hrs using Hidrogen peroxide 130 Volumes...
Our ancestor had suffered the consequencias for the experiencias so that we knew what he is right or wrong. It would be
Intelligent to make the same experiencias again?
Guerilla February 11th, 2004, 01:47 PM

Storing AP for any longer periods of time is not advised due to the sublimation and recrystallation of bigger crystals (some on
the surface of other crystals) that are more prone to stress.. definitely discussed before.

Yes, I know very well about its tendencies to sublimate and recristalize to form bigger crystals, and what consequenses that
could lead to, but that is not the point.
Which would be the most sensitive, a batch with two month old AP, with very fine crystal structure, and one day old AP, with a
coarse structure?
well, as far as I have understood, the larger crystals will still be more prone to accidental detonation due to various reasons.
But listening to people writing "rules" about not storing AP for more than two weeks, you could get the idea, that the crystal
size doesnt matter, and out of that make the assumption that the AP makes some kind of chemical alteration, to become
more sensitive as time passes.
-Ohh what a beautiful bunch of 2mm long AP crystals, glad I made the batch yesterday, so I dont have to worry about them
being more sensitive than normal.
-BANG
I would like to believe that there arent people as dumb as that, but history has proven othervise too many times.
(www.darwinawards.com ,to mention a few)
BTW, acid, you should work on your English if you plan on posting more on this forum.
just a hint from one "foreigner" to another...
Boomer February 12th, 2004, 11:53 AM

I have stored both dry AP and APAN for over a year (by hiding and forgetting it). It was still useable, with no crystals forming in
the container, and only slightly coarser and a little more sensitive, if at all. I even crushed the AP to a finer powder before
pressing caps, and nothing happened. Of course the caps were pressed remotely, and the crushing was done in sub-gram-
amounts, with protection and a long wooden tool.
A way to store a few grams of dry AP safely is to spread it VERY thin on a paper, and put it in a dustproof cupboard. It will
probably not make DDT, and if it does, the thin layer means so little energy per square inch that the board under it stays
whole. I kept it for some month this way and noticed no change. There was also little or no sublimation, as there was no
noticeable loss, neither crystals deposited anywhere near.
Maybe this is all a question of climate? Or the dimeric form sublimes much faster?
EDIT AsylumSeaker: Maybe this is caused by the crystals being coated with polystyrene, so they cannot sublime so fast. I
forgot to mention that the one-year-old APAN contained some diesel also. It was made from some leftover APAN (1:2) and
ANFO (6%) roughly in equal amounts. I guess anything covering the AP crystals will make them more storage stable unless
it is incompatible of course.
AsylumSeaker February 12th, 2004, 09:21 PM

I did an experiment. I dissolved one part polystyrene, nine parts AP into some toluene and let it evporate. I was trying to
make a sort of AP plastic explosive. The result was a sort of crumbly chunk of grey crap which spluttered lots when it burned. I
hit a small chunk with a brick and it seemed to be quite a bit more unsensitive than usual ap. Took a few hits to set it off.
Anyways, I left a chunk of it in a small jar for like months and it looked exactly the same as it did when i put it in there.
Might be useful to someone.
Crow February 13th, 2004, 08:37 PM

I haven't been to this site in almost a year, and even then I was still lurking. This is the first time I have used or even seen
this new forum format so if I screw up I'm sorry. I have been wanting to make some AP, and I have all the materials to do so.
But the only acetone I have access to contains other ingrediants as well. I read in some threads on this site that it is
sometimes alright to have other ingrediants in acetone, but it is not recomended. I was wondering if it would be safe/beneficial
to use acetone with toluene and methanol in it as well. I have a gallon of the acetone/toluene/methanol substance labled
"Fast acting thinner" in a large yellow bottle with a large flamability warning lable on each side.
Mumble February 14th, 2004, 07:38 PM

I would think that the extra additives may pose a problem. Not exactly a problem of reactivity. A problem of solvation. The
extra ingredients would dissove the AP as soon as its formed. Crashing with a good amount of water will flush all out of the
solvents.
I still wouldn't do it. AP is sensitive enough as it is. I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that the addition of toluene or
methanol make it even more sensitive.
vulture February 14th, 2004, 08:21 PM

You'd be oxidizing the toluene and methanol instead of making AP.
Distill off the acetone with a rectifier column.
Crow February 14th, 2004, 09:03 PM

Distill off the acetone with a rectifier column.
What exactly is a rectifier column? I'm pretty certain it would explode if I tried to boil anything, so I'm unsure what to do.

What exactly is a rectifier column? I'm pretty certain it would explode if I tried to boil anything, so I'm unsure what to do.
Thinner exploding when boiling? You've been reading too many cookbooks...
Rectifying = distilling with a fractionating column to separate the fractions with different boiling point.

Four months ago i made 300 gr of ANNM, i placed this charge in a pipe and prepared a detonator to set it off. The detonator
was made with 4 gr AP in a copper small pipe. When i was on the det. site i inserted the detonator in the charge but suddenly i
noticed the presence of a man 200m far from me. I immediatly extracted the detonator and went home.
Last week i controlled the detonator to see if there were some changes, on first examination i noticed that the copper pipe was
oxidized and i immediatly get very scared. I thought the AP was reacting with copper so i dumped the detonator in water and
waited some minutes to let the water enter inside the detonator. After this i extracted the wet AP and examinated the inner
side of the copper pipe...it was perfectly intact! The AP didn't react with the copper.
Ahh! I took a deep breath! The outer side of the pipe was corroded by the ANNM!
This means that AP is stable in contact with copper and even after 4 mounths!
The bottom of the detonator was sealed with hot glue, i remember the bad experience of cyclonite with AP/Epoxy mix so i
decided to examinate also the hot glue. It was perfect just like the copper pipe!
This is a good demonstration that is possible to make safe detonators with AP and that trimeric AP is enough stable to store in
copper pipes.
However it is always one of the most sensitive HE and precaution is always needed.
ProdigyChild October 16th, 2004, 06:53 AM

@nuclearattack: what bad experience with AP/epoxi/cyclonite??
I've once had (tasty; NO2) PETN that ignited withing less than 3 seconds (!) when put a drop of epoxi hardener on it. I blamed
it on acid traces, because pure PETN does NOT do that.
Thanks for your report about copper stability. My electric detonators contain some copper - not in direct contact to the AP but I
may creep through some pinhole and finally reach the copper :eek:
About AP: I have a batch that is over 7 years old (glass container). I have used up my detonators that have been assembled
for 5 years (Straw + storm match + PVC shrink tube). Few loss still reliable, still the same crystal size, still as stable unstable
as always.
I can't listen to these warning stories anymore until someone gives an EXPLANATION rather than suspicion. I've blown an
estimated number of 50 AP dets and I really wonder, why I haven't experienced any problems with AP.
Yes I DO observe the stuff.

Yes I DO treat it with utmost respect, I clean the threads of the containers with a paintbrush every time.
I avoid pressing or crushing in ANY way and not even touch the dets with my hands when filling!
I DON'T expose it to light.
And I DO minimize the time I (have to) touch the dets directly.
The only problem with AP is that people can produce large amounts easily and forget that it's a primary explosive. What if
people made batches of 200g Mercury fulminate or lead azide and treat it like AN??
SweNMFan October 16th, 2004, 12:02 PM

The outer side of the pipe was corroded by the ANNM!
Both AN and NM react with Cu, as you noticed..

To prodigy child:
Cyclonite meshed AP with epoxy glue, after some days his dog walked on the AP putty and it went off. Not a lot of damage for
the dog but a good lesson for everybody! AP reacts with epoxy and becomes very unstable.
To SweaNMfan:
ANNM reacts also with iron or steel? I have a heavy steel pipe that i want to use for LSC confinement. Can NM react with steel
or iron making an unstable compound in presence of NG? I want to use my liquid straight dynamite (NG/NM in 60/40 ratio) in
this steel pipe and i don't want an incident.

According to this http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/n5740.htm
NM Incompatibilities
Amines, acids, bases, oxidizing materials, metal oxides, aluminum chloride plus organic matter, hexamethylbenzene,
hydrocarbons, calcium hypochlorite, potassium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, calcium hydroxide. Slowly corrodes steel and
copper when wet. Nitromethane in the presence of water can react with organic bases to form salts which are explosive when
dry.
AN (http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/a6048.htm)
Incompatibilities:
Aluminum, antimony, chromium, copper, iron, lead, magnesium, manganese, nickel, zinc, brass, oil, charcoal, organic
material, acetic acid, ammonium chloride, bismuth, cadmium, chlorides, cobalt, phosphorus, potassium and ammonium
sulfate, sodium, sodium hypochlorite, sodium perchlorate, sodium-potassium alloy, and sulfure.
Why not a platic bag in the steel pipe..
Chris The Great October 27th, 2004, 07:36 PM

Acid, What happens with your AP after you store it for two weeks?
I really would like to know that, because a lot of people, especially newbies, keeps
making posts in the AP threads telling me how sensitive their AP becomes after about two weeks, but I have yet to see
anyone giving a good explanation about why.
Mine went from flour consistancy crystals to salt sized crystals. After 3 weeks (so, not quite accurate compared to 2 weeks) it
was easily set off with a light hammer blow, compared to me being unable to set it off when I first made it (and yes, I was
hitting it hard, on metal, etc).
I'm guessing that it's the recrystalization into smaller isomers, but I really don't know for sure as I dissolved the whole thing
into acetone/water (I tried to soak it in water but it was dry enough that it couldn't get through the surface tension, so I had to
add acetone) because I didn't want it to explode without reason for some unknown reason, and ruin my shop and get the cops
on me.
I heard from someone (I cannot remember who) said that after it is recrystalized from acetone by pouring into cold water to
lower the solubility it's stability is high again. This may be either from the AP crystalizing in the trimeric isomer, or because the
crystals are small again and more stable. I'll try recrystalizing and see if the stability goes back up to what it was when I first
made the batch.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Calcium hypoclorite and fuel oils
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View Full Version : Calcium hypoclorite and fuel oils
Lameiras September 25th, 2003, 08:01 PM

Some questions about calcium hypoclorite where made in this forum, but not about the mixture of it with fuel oils.
Its a very common s wim ming poll chlorinate agent and also a strong oxidizer. Seems that the commercial versions are composed of Ca(ClO)2 around (65%) and 35% of water, in
weight.
It can be heated (not at very height temperatures), to extract the water. This process leave the Ca(ClO)2 crystals dry and porous. Then if a mixture is made w ith fuel oils like kerosene,
vegetable oil etc... it burns extremely fast, like a flash powder. Seem s that Ca(ClO)2 is fast to give up its oxygen under these c onditions. If this mixture is contained, its ignition produce
a loud and pow erful explosion. Much more powerful than the standard black pow der for sure. It is also a very "sensitive" mixture(about the same "sensibility" of the black
powder).
I have searched but haven t found anything about this particular kind of mixture. Its extremely easy to obtain the ingredients and to prepare; and it can be used as an explosive of
course. I have read about the production of chlorates through the thermal decomposition of hypoclorites but it is complicated processes if compared with use of the dry comercial
Ca(ClO)2 as the oxidizer. Also there is the possibility of prepare the mixture right before the use.
My questions are: Is this a viable low explosive? Are the risks acceptable? There are ways to reduce its "sensibility" and increase the powerful at the same time?
mongo blongo September 25th, 2003, 09:33 PM

Black powder is sensitive??? :eek: :rolleyes:
blindreeper September 26th, 2003, 01:30 AM

Exactly my thought mongo, besides why bother with such a mixture when chlorites are know to be unstable?
I have read about the production of chlorates through the thermal decomposition of hypoclorites but it is complicated processes if compared with use of the dry comercial
Ca(ClO)2 as the oxidizer.
True but there are far greater things you can do with chlorate than that of hyporchlorites :rolleyes:
Axt September 26th, 2003, 02:52 PM

He is more then likely refering to flame sensitivity.
At least I found his post intersting enough, if it acts the way as its told. You could fart around converting the hypochlorite to chlorate to get a handful of powder for your trouble,
or you could pour oil over hypochlorite and get kilograms for no work at all. Now which is more useful?
I cant think of another liquid fueled BP equivalent, so it has some merit. Although I always assumed such a mix w ould spontaneously combust.

How are you setting it off? I'm assuming you mean w ith a detonator, and not just straigh fuse, correct?
This isn't exactly a new idea, since hypochlorite/naptha is a known explosive that we've discussed before. It's just another oxidizer/fuel explosive.
Lameiras September 27th, 2003, 02:13 AM

Detonator.
I have tried w ith many kinds of common fuels including naptha. And I have observed that with liquid and more volatiles fuels like kerosene the mixture burns faster and its explosion is
more powerful. That s because a liquid fuel is easily absorbed by the porous and dry Ca(ClO) 2 grains, which create an enorm ous contact s urface. So its not necessary to break the grains
or use solvents to m ixture a solid fuel. Another observation is that if the grains have to be braked its better to do this before the heating proces s. I think its increase the porosity.
Volatiles fuels like kerosene have obvious disadvantages. Makes the mixture even m ore sensitive to flames, it can evaporate fast Anyway this is not a mixture to be stored.
Heaviest oils are better fuels if the mixture will be stored.
I have never observed spontaneous ignition with the dry Ca(ClO )2

At what temperature do you heat your hypochlorite, and for how long?
Axt September 27th, 2003, 03:06 AM

Therefore doesnt burn but detonates, your choice of words and comparisons with blackpowder completely threw me off.
What sized charge and type of explosive is being used to detonate the mix?

The heating temperature should be around 100 C. It s hould be heated for 20 30 minutes. This is a draw of the heating device that I use:
http://paginas.terra.com.br/arte/12367895/D.htm
Its important to keep the Ca(ClO)2 layer thicknes s under 0,5 cm to avoid overheating points, that m ay caus e self decompos ing.
I use to mixture 0,1 ml of oil for each gram of dry Ca(ClO)2.
The comparisons w ith black powder or flash powder are to give an idea of how it reacts in open air. If a proportion like 0,1 ml/g is used the reaction in open air is very fast and
the light that it produces is extremely strong, may cause blindness for a few seconds.
About the ignition devic e, I use an improvised one. Its more like a detonator I think. Consists in a filament of steel confined in a small rec ipient w ith a few grams or m g of something
like flash powder for example. Draws to give an idea: http://paginas.terra.com.br/arte/12367895/d2.jpg
http://paginas.terra.com.br/arte/12367895/C.jpg

Now, just to clarify, the material does NOT spontaneously ignite w hen mixed, correct? Some formulations of HTH (calcium hypochlorite) with organic fuels spontaneously ignite/
explode w hen mixed, either instantly or after a short delay.
The mix you describes only ignites after being exposed to an ingition source like a flash charge, correct?

Correct. If the mixture is made like I have described the materials does not spontaneously ignite when mixed. The mixture must be completely free of w ater. (the fuel and the
Ca(ClO)2). Once the mixture is made it must not be exposed to height temperatures. And only substances that are not soluble in water must compose the fuel. Oils, which
contains substances like glycols etc, must NOT be used. Only pure oils must be used, the kitchen soy oil for instance.
metafractal September 28th, 2003, 10:24 AM

This might have some merit, as long as you make sure that the products are completely dry, as Lameiras suggested. However, he did not stress how important this was. My
only experience w ith hypochlorites/fuel oils w as w hen I added some viscous hydrocarbon (sorry, cant remember exactly what it was) to damp calcium hypochlorite. After about
fifteen seconds, large volumes of thick, w hite, highly irritating smoke were formed. After about ten minutes, the mixture burst into bright orange flames.
FragmentedSanity October 1st, 2003, 12:29 AM

Lo all :)
Just wondering if this is classified as High or Low order? The flash charge initiation sounds like its a low order mix that can burn fast enough to undergo DDT
Its been said that the mix dosent combust spontaneously, but will it iginite by being heated or does it need a flame?
my gnome's (kew lish I know) experiments w ith calcium hypoclorite + feul mixes have always been unpredictable.
But my gnome tells me that he alw ays used the hydrated calcium hypoclorite and usually break fluid as a fuel. This mix is w ell know n and talked about so I wont rehash old
stuff, the point I w as getting to was that the mixture's behaviour was dramatically affected by the weather - namely the ambient tempreature. On a hot day ignition is almost
immediate upon contact - whereas on a cold day the mix can remain totally inert until a heat source is introduced to kick start the reaction.
If by drying the calcium hypoclorite and using the right fuel we get a reliable mix it w ould be even easier than AP and totally OTC from the supermarket!
(edited to remove the offending initials - Whats up w ith that? is it a new rule I missed - I have signed pretty much every post the same way since Ive been here - just curious
not trying to step on any toes)
blindreeper October 1st, 2003, 12:37 AM

FragmentedSanity, I think this is being used as a HE, and it would be easier than AP, granted. But for it to be an effect HE you need a detonator such as AP :rolleyes:
And don't end a post with your username/abbreviation of username!
Lameiras October 1st, 2003, 09:04 AM

Once the mixture is done, if heated it may ignite. The ignition by heating depends on which kind of fuel oil is used and in how the heating is done. If a more volatile oil is used,
it will evaporate during a slow heating process, the mixture w ill lose the fuel and it will probably not ignite. If the heating process is fast, the temperature may increase a lot
before the fuel evaporation that w ill cause the ignition. If more heavy oil is used as fuel, the temperature of the mixture will increase during a slow or fast heating and the
ignition will occur.
The temperature of ignition depends on which kind of oil is used as fuel. Assuming the fast heating.
The calcium hypoclorite must be heated in a controlled temperature BEFORE the oil addition. Once heated the temperature of the Ca(ClO)2 grains or powder must decrease until
it gets at least under 45 C to do the mixture with oils.
I have tested oil for breaks. It must not be used in this kind of mixture because it is not pure oil. It contains glycols and other substances that may cause the spontaneous
ignition.
green beret October 3rd, 2003, 12:33 AM

This has really caught my attention, it is unbelievably simple, and requires only the tiniest charge to set it off. If he is using only a few grams or milligrams of Flash (?) then a
small amount of AP w ill surely do it.
Just to summarise;
1. Dry Calcium hypochlorite at 100 C for 20-30 minutes

2. Mix with a pure oil
3. Insert detonator and fire
I am assuming that between two and three there would be some time required for full absorbtion of the oil, and that confinement w ould help.
Lamerias, what type of confinement do you use, if any, and do you mix the oil in by hand, or simply let it absorb. Also, were you using flash to set it off, or some type of
primary, because you said "Something like flashpowder for example", just dosent seem too clear thats all.
Good w ork though, it seems this explosive may be quite useful.
nbk2000 October 3rd, 2003, 02:06 AM

This would be a good use for the vacuum packaging. By vacuum packing it, you keep the hypochlorite in an anhydrous state, allowing you to store it pre-mixed in a ready to
use state with minimal risk of premature ignition from moisture absorbtion. :)
Lameiras October 3rd, 2003, 11:34 AM

100 C is a good temperature to dehydrate it because if the temperature is higher the Ca(ClO)2 may auto decompose. I am not sure about the exactly temperature for auto
decom position to occur, but since the process works in a lower temperature its better to proc eed in that w ay.
Once dehydrated, the mixture is done by dropping the oil over the grains or pow der and mixing with a spoon, for instance. The absorption is fast and It will be ready
immediately.
Observing the grains m ixed with oil through this simple proc ess its poss ible to see that some grains absorb more oil then others. Som e remain completely dry. Considering this fact and
observing the auto dec omposition of Ca(ClO )2 by heat, its poss ible to imagine that the grains with excess of fuel reac ts producing the necessary heat to decompose the dry grains. This
decom position causes an injection of oxygen that oxidizes this excess of fuel in the neighbours grains.
I have tried to mix dry grains (fuel less) with grains that exceeded in fuel. The reaction in open air w as the same(all the fuel was consumed), a little slower thought.
About the confinement, it can be made of any material that has the proper thermal-mechanical resistance. I have tried w ith successes cylinders made of cardboard, PVC pipes even
metal pipes. With c ardboard or paper it good to add two or three layers of aluminium foil on the internal s urface. Thats because the Ca(C lO)2 may oxidize the cellulose reducing the
mechanical resistance of recipient.
Te mixture will ignite if exposed to a fast and intense heat process. The flashpow der can produce heat quickly and intensity. More than what is necessary to ignition, make its explosion
more effective. The mach pow der can also be used to ignition, with w orst results. For it to be more effective, as wrote in a post, it will need a detonator.
Vacuum packaging is a very good Idea!
green beret October 4th, 2003, 01:35 AM

Thanks Lameiras, you have provided some good information. Do you think thermite would be quick enough to detonate it? Also, unless I get around to doing it first, would AP
work well?
I really like the idea of the Vacuum packaging too.
Lameiras October 4th, 2003, 08:57 AM

Yes. I think that both thermite and AP could work.
I guess I forgot to mention others important observations which I have made.
I mentioned that the dry Ca(ClO)2 grains are porous, they absorb the fuel which makes the contact surface between the substances enormous. However, because of the thermal
decom position of fuel less grains in the mixture with grains exceeding in fuel, and its cons equently oxygen liberation, the smaller grains are more effective the reaction is. The oxygen
injections from decomposed fuel less grains need to travel shortly distances to reach the grains exceeding in fuel. Consequently the oxygen reaches them faster.
The process to reduce the size of grains should take place before the hating as mentioned.
About the possible fuels, in fact, there are many w ith many kinds of effects. Every pure hydrocarbon or mixture of pure hydrocarbons may be used. Substances that are Ca(ClO)2
solvents such as w ater must not be used. Substances that are soluble in water must not be used since them can bring w ater with them and they could also works both as solvent and
fuel for Ca(ClO)2, s uch ethanol, glyc ols etc This will cause a s pontaneous reac tion.
Ammonium nitrate must no be mixed with calcium hypoclorite. If the both substance are not absolutely dry, a violent reaction w ith a short delay after mixed w ill occur resulting
in explosion.
Desmikes October 4th, 2003, 05:54 PM

Can you ignite such comp by a drop or two of some acidic liquid? Does anyone have any experimental data showing how the substitution of nitromethane for pure hydrocarbons
affects the final product.
green beret October 6th, 2003, 02:41 AM

Thats interseting, the fact that mixing AN with calcium hypochlorite will produce an explosion, its pretty unlikely thats it a detonation of the AN though. You could mix in some
primary with the AN and then combine it with the hypochlorite. Not that it would be very useful though. Maybe for some type of impact grenade?
Lamerias, as soon as I get some hypochlorite, I will do some testing to see how AP and thermite work as detonators for this mix.
Lameiras October 6th, 2003, 08:01 AM

Desmikes, until now I only observed ignition of the pure Calcium hypoclorite through heat. It decomposes as I have mentioned. But I have never got a sufficient fast
decomposing reaction of pure Ca(ClO)2 to use as a viable explosive. The only experiment that I have made in which the pure Ca(ClO)2 exploded w as w hen put abut 5 g of it to
dry in a microw ave over a glass plate. After 3 minutes it exploded violently producing a loud noise and converting the plate in thousands of pieces.
Dropping acids over pure Ca(ClO)2 will cause a violent reaction on the local w here the droops hit the crystals. Dropping over Ca(ClO)2 mixed with fuel may cause ignition.
About the experimental data, I dont have. Are you talking about mixture nitromethane with Ca(ClO )2?
About the mix with AN, the Ca(ClO)2 produce a strong reaction even by contact of the solid crystals as mentioned. Di or Trichloro-S-Triazinetrione also produces a reaction but it not so
violent and it have to be solved in w eather to occur quickly. I dont know if the AN is working as a catalyser to decompose the Ca(ClO)2 w hich is a much less s table compound or if its
reacting as well. The reaction is so violent that even if oil is mixed to avoid the direct contact of Ca(ClO)2 crystals w ith AN crystals, it occurs very slowly.
An idea w ould be put Ca(ClO)2 and AN in separated plastic bags. Dispose the bags as alternated layers inside a cylindrical recipient and an explosive charge in the end. Or even do the
same with bags of ANFO and CHFO to obtain m ore energy.
The same kind of phenomenon occ urs by mixing sulphur and Ca(ClO)2. Sulphur is als o a fuel. Its a less violent reaction thought. The same idea could be tried using sulphur. As well with
many others substances w hich possible have this behaviour when mixed with Ca(ClO)2.
Here where I live, brom ines are not used as sw imming poll chemicals so it s not that easy for me to get some, however it is logical to s uppose that brome compounds w ould w ork as
well.
By the way, here there is a page with a short description of Ca(ClO) 2 industrial production processes and its advantages as disinfectant and oxidiz er agent . http://
w w w.altairchimica.com/eng/prodotti.htm
I'd be very careful to examine the nitromethane proposed for this application. I've seen references to many nitromethane formulations (10%, 25%, etc) whose other major
component is methanol. At the same time as not being a chemist, I do know that methanol is extremely popular in "dry gas" products because of its affinity with w ater.
Does pure nitromethane itself have such affinity?
Desmikes October 12th, 2003, 06:20 PM

The other day I was playing around making plastic container rockets with 40% gasoline 45% nitromethane and 15% xylene (rough eye approx.), they used to work better and
look cooler w/o xylene, but that's not the point. After ripping boxes and launching plastic jugs across my backyard got old I decided to mix the above mixture with some 78%
calcium hypochlorite (not the best purity) to w atch it burn. I poured enough fuel to get it all w et and felt for temperature change as a safety precaution (that particular Ca(ClO)2
never did react by itself w ith gasoline before, but I wasn't sure about the nitro and xylene). There w as no obvious change w ithin first 20 sec, so feeling satisfied I inserted a fuse
but then I felt the T rise. I set the whole thing down and ran a few meters back. It produced LOTS of fumes, kinda like H2O2 + catalyst, except these were heavy, fuel fumes
that didn't rise at all. About 20 sec later the O+F mixture violently deflagrated with a slight boom-woosh setting off the entire cloud of fumes that covered near-by area. One
cup of reactants resulted in a very impressive 2m wide fireball.
Points/observations/ideas: my Ca(ClO)2 sat for three days in the unsealed container prior to this experiment, it w as 22*C outside and very humid; the fumes produced were
mostly nitromethane judging from the type and color of the flame but it's kinda hard to say for sure; this would make a simple (NON-detonation) FAE if put inside a narrow and
tall case close to the top.
bloodbob October 18th, 2003, 05:23 AM

*USING THIS THREAD TO TEST POSTING AS REGISTRATION SAID I HAD TO WAIT 2 WEEKS*
Okay I'm assuming those fumes were probably a mixuture of gasoline vapour which cooled and hung low .
Calicum hypochlorite is probably good for smoke mixtures too. When I was younger I made smoke mixtures of the chlorine tablets ( I dunno w hats in them it isn't a simple
chlorine oxide salt it has nitrogens in I believe ) ground up with sugar when heated produced alot of smoke and a carbon matrix also I noted the isopropanol alcohol + the
cholrine tablets produced either CO2 or CO.

You w ait 2 weeks so you w ill hopefully read the forum a bit and learn not to post crap or irrelevant garbage

This seems like quite a good discovery, so very simple :D the only problem being with the drying of the hypochlorite, but I will definately try this.
I will probably use Ca(ClO)2 and kerrosene or naptha with innitiation via a slowflash salute or possibly the primary from christmass bon-bon crackers. Will be annoying drying
out the hypochlorite but I suppose it is safer than making AP, seems too good to be true, safe easily innitiated HE's w ith OTC chems that even I of all people have access to.

Let me know how it goes blackhaw k, Calcium Hypochlorite is very easy to get hold of around where I live (many people have their own pools).
Lameiras November 10th, 2003, 10:41 AM

I have also observed that aluminium powder can be a great fuel for the dry Ca(ClO)2. Not pure aluminium powder but a mixture of it with oils. Many proportions could be used.
The aluminium increases the reaction energy. The velocity decrease thought. When contained and ignited it provides a more pow erful explosion if compared with the mixture of
oils only as fuel.
An interesting possibility is to use metallic paints of right brilliance as fuel. The pigment of this kind of paints is usually aluminium pow der of the finest kind. The solvent and the vehicle,
works as the fuel oils. By passing this paint through a filter for instance, its poss ible to separate some solvent which increase the concentration of alum inium powder.
Another possibility is mixture the dry Ca(ClO)2 and pure oils with flash powders (that not contains sulphur!).

That is a good idea, first I have to get myself an oven that I don't cook with (a little snack oven thanx Blind), have you observed a critical diameter with your containment?
whats the smallest amount you have succesfully 'detonated' (is that the right word for this stuff or is it just fast def) I may try a mix of Ca(ClO)2/KMnO4/Al/Naptha the Al/
KMnO4 acting as a flash 'sensetiser' and the naptha as the fuel, I may also det with a small amount of OTC primary instead of relying on DDT. That gives me an idea, may be a
use for 40%monomer MEKP (the commercial rubbish), it may prove to be an effective sensetiser in this case (although I will have to try a spontaneous ignition sample first to
make sure it is safe)
xyz: Yeah same around here, quite easy and cheap, just buy it from the pool section of franklins I'll document and post results when I do some, but It may be a while, I have
to go shopping for tools first ;)

I have observed that the geometrical disposition of this mixture inside a closed recipient results in a critical relation betw een the diameter, the length and the thermal-mechanical
resistance of recipient material. Assuming a cylindrical disposition, the critical diameter would be pol and the maximum length would depend on thermal-mechanic resistance
of recipient. If you use more resistant recipients such as metal pipes, you may decrease the diameter and increase the length.
(The distance betw een the ignition point and the end of the charge can be considered as the length in this case.)
I guess the smalles t amount I have successful detonated w as 5 g contained in a cylindrical recipient with pol diam eter and approximately 3 pols length.

We here at the Forum use either Imperial or Metric for all units of measure.
A "Pol" is not a unit of measure used by either of these systems. Define what a "Pol" is in these sytems.
Thank you.

1 pol = 25,4 mm
pol = 12,7 mm
pol = 19,05 mm
3 pols= 76,2 mm

So a "pol" is an inch? 1 Pol = 25.4mm = 1 inch?
Lameiras November 14th, 2003, 02:27 PM

Necessarily. 1 Pol = 1 inch.
Please, I am sorry about this confusion. I am accustomed with the metric system. But for some reason, here where I live the pipes diameters are measured in terms of inches.
("polegadas" in Portuguese. "pol" is the abbreviation).
Spy November 17th, 2003, 03:29 PM

Nice to meet you Lameiras! I am Brazilian too! if you have a free time send me a e-mail(sidys01@hotmail.com),to give more power to that mixture , puts some potassium
nitrate and aluminium powder before putting the oil and mix , its will give good results.

Adding KNO3, aluminium or any other exotic chemical defeats the purpose of using Ca(OCl)2. Its meant to be nice and OTC :)

Exactly!
The idea is keep it simple. The aluminium paint is a way to add aluminium powder and fuel oils from a common available product.
30yearstoolate! August 15th, 2006, 06:42 PM

Is it necessary to detonate with AP or other high explosive or can it be achieved with a length of visco fuse. AP would not keep to the simplicity theme.
If a length of fuse would be sufficient to cause the ignition, would this be able to cause a build up of pressure within a confined object [steel pipe or copper tube] to a high
enough pressure to explode the container?
If so would it be as powerful as using flash or black powder in the same container.
On a side note: If water is introduced into the reaction would spontaneous ignition occur?
If so then it might be able to be used as a basic depth charge with a small hole in the container. Thus controlable by the diameter of the hole.
nbk2000 August 16th, 2006, 02:32 AM

Seems someone is three years too late. ;) :D
Lewis August 22nd, 2006, 02:11 AM

Seems a pretty dead thread, but hopefully someone know s this:
Are the so called 'chlorine pucks' used in pools pure, or relativley pure calcium hypochlorite? I recently obtained some but not from their original container.
They're largish, w hite chalky cylinders similar in shape to water paints kids use. Unfortunatley the only test I was able to do on them was expose them to relativley pure H2SO4,
with no result.
I no longer have the pucks, but my question is w ould it be worth stealing some more?
nbk2000 August 22nd, 2006, 08:49 AM

They can vary from a low of 15% to a high of 95%+ .
So, without knowing exactly w hat percentage of active chlorine content the tablets have, you're wasting your time.
Quik-Shock HTH is the best to use, as it's very high chlorine content.
Be sure to get the packages from a normal pool retailer w ho'll have constant turn-over of inventory, otherwise the chemicals may be old. Old=Bad.
flashpoint September 8th, 2006, 12:12 PM

Well I'll just let you in on a little secret too even know this thread is dead. Cal-Hypo doesn't reguarly come in 'pucks' by the way. The brand name for Cal-Hypo in 'pucks' is
Accutab. Most 3" tabs in my area are Tri-Chlor based. You can't mix the two together. Granular Cal-Hypo and Tri-Chlor = Bad. Read the packets of chlorine and make sure you
are infact using Calcium Hypochlorite, or you might find your self fucked up :)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Manganese Heptoxide / Xylene
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As you may know, contact between Mn2O7 and xylene results in a violent explosion. The plan here was to spread a cloud of xylene followed by a cloud of Mn2O7 resulting in
an "FAE" type explosion.
2KMnO4 + H2SO4 --> Mn2O7 + K2SO4 + H2O
Two small jars were setup, first containing xylene, second KMnO4/H2SO4. To spread the explosive cloud the jars were simply placed one in front of the other and shot.
I cant say for sure what happened, whether the Mn2O7 simply detonated when struck by the bullet or it was in fact spread into a cloud, but the vapour cloud seems to have
ignited all at once.
Anyway. view the movie (http://geocities.com/roguemovies2/) and judge for yourself.
Hardly practical , but amusing.

At least it lookes really good. Do you have any idea of the power of the cloud if it had any at all?
What ammounts of chems where you using? and with what did you shoot the container with?
And how large was the fireball? Is it a brick that is located in to the left in the movie? if it is I have quite a good idea of the size of the cloud.

No noticeable power, though there was nothing in its vacinity to gauge it (the plant in foreground is on opposite side of gully).
About 60ml xylene to 25g KMnO4 / 15ml H2SO4 (wasnt measured). So the explosive reaction beteen Xylene/Mn2O7 was only used in multiple ignitions in a FAE cloud rather
then giving power in itself.
The bottles used hold 60ml with the bullet (.25-06) coming in at about 4 o'clock from camera. Its not a brick but close enough in size for comparison.

Tiny amounts in the open isn't going to do much noticable damage to anything.
However...if you were to set off a kilo of this in a room...then you'd have a nice thermobaric effect that should blow it all to hell. :)
It went from sitting in the bottle to fully burnt in one frame (1/30th second). That's fast enough to create a shockwave if there's enough of it burning. Two bottles, one inside
the other, with a central burster would get the two chemicals together fast enough to create the explosion.
Madog555 November 11th, 2003, 06:04 PM

today after seeing that video i decided to react Mn2O7 with xylene.
i put a few drops of xylene on a piece of wood, held an eye dropper above it and dropeda drop of Mn2o7 onto it.
it detonated on contact. causeing my ears to ring. the flash was orange and about 3cm x 3cm
Flake2m November 12th, 2003, 05:48 AM

If the MnO7 and Xylene creates a violent explosion you could use the reaction as an initiator to an FAE.
I would avoid keeping the two compound together any longer then was nessecary. However since only 15ml of MnO7 was capable of creating a fireball then maybe you'd only
need that amount to ignite 1L of xylene.
If 15ml of MnO7 is all thats needed to set off 1L of xylene then once it has reacted with the xylene the fireball creating from the reaction would allow the rest of the Xylene to
react with the surrounding air.
This method would not need a secondary charge to ignite the Xylene only a priamary charge to disperse the Xylene, this would make the device easier to construct.
SWIM could test the pressure of the device by having several props made of different materials and at varing distances away. After the device was tested SWIM could detirmine
the power of the charge by the number of props knocked over and any damage done to them by such things like heat and how intact they are.
Axt November 12th, 2003, 08:31 AM

The original idea was an FAE if you read the first paragraph. Reason being that you would need 14x more Mn2O7 then xylene for complete
combustion - impossible/stupid to try making that much heptoxide, therefore you make use of the atmospheric oxygen in an FAE.
Youll note from the movie that it started to decompose before it was shot, probably due to an exothermic reaction, I wouldnt try to isolate/confine it.
You may be able to improve on the FAE effect in larger charges by diluting the xylene with another hydrocarbon or simular so the clouds/air can mix well before igniting, just
an idea but I dont think you will find a practical yet safe way of utilising it.
That safest route may be to find a flamable liquid that will disolve a large amount of KMnO4, and disperse this liquid with concentrated H2SO4, creating the Mn2O7 in the cloud
rather then in the device. I dont know of any fuel that would allow this but . :(

Recently i've been thinking of making an FAE using KMnO4 and H2O2. A mix of acetone/H2O2 (35%) would be poured into a bottle, and a length of det cord inside a larger
tube filled with KMnO4 would be inserted in the neck of the bottle.
Upon detonation the KMnO4 would mix with the H2O2 creating a cloud of O2 and acetone vapour. :D :cool:
simply RED November 14th, 2003, 05:42 AM

I have tried it with acetone and it does not work well. Acetone mixes with the water and the resaulting mixture does not evaporate fast enough.
The best resault was achieved using "greasy paint" solvent. AKA "koreselin".
It also works with gasoline or other fast evaporating oil fraction.
I don't have place to try 2,3 liters of this in enclosed space.

Gas isn't miscible in acetone and that would decrease the effectiveness of the device greatly. Besides, why would it matter if the fuel doesn't evapourate quickly? It's going to
be atomized by a charge of high explosives. :D
I do think higher concentration H2O2 would be more suitable as it would be more space efficient and would make the device much more effective.
But I don't have access to high conc. H2O2 and I don't want to concerntrate it so oh well. :(
vulture November 15th, 2003, 04:54 PM

"Bind" the water by adding H2SO4 to your H2O2 solution... :D

Cool video. I don't have much to add here. Mn2O7, as you know, is produced by adding finely powdered KMnO4 to cold concentrated H2SO4. It is recommended that the
sulfuric acid sit in an ice/salt bath as you are adding the KMnO4 and swirling the H2SO4 as you are doing so to help keep any 'hot spots' from developing. When you've added
the stoichiometrically correct amount of KMnO4, if you want to isolate Mn2O7, ice-cold distilled water is added drop-wise. The key is to keep the temperature as low as
possible. Mn2O7 will separate as a dark red oil at the bottom of the test tube because of its high density of 2.4 g/ml. If 'hot spots' did develop, then some of the oxide
decomposes to O2 and MnO2 and the heptoxide will have a more brown/red color to it. The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (72 Ed.) lists the melting point of Mn2O7 as
5.9*C, but the reaction is exothermic enough that the temperature will stay well above the melting point. The temperature of decomposition is 55*C and the purple vapor you
see is purportedly Mn2O7 as it's decomposing according to Mellor's if I recall correctly. Explosive decomposition occurs at 95*C.
All this to say that you may fare better by keeping the reaction cooler, isolating the oxide, and then removing it from an ice bath right before experimenting.
FAE devices that use both a fuel and oxidizer, other than atmospheric O2, are notoriously difficult to design and implement for practical purposes. The ones used currently by
the military only rely on atmospheric O2 as the oxidizer. But one purpose of using a FAE device is to *use up* the surrounding oxygen, so a fuel-oxidizer combination may not
be the ideal system anyway. I think we can at least all empathize with the difficulty in making these systems work.
Desmikes November 17th, 2003, 02:20 AM

There was a thread about accidents and I was too embarraces to share this story but it seems to fit here. So.. Back in a day I decided to see if I can make some colored AP
and perhaps get a better Oxygen ballance if I were to add KMnO4 to the mix. I dissolved as much KMno4 in the acetone as I could and started adding ice-cold 35% H2O2 but
every drop reacted with the catalyst and produced a lot of gas. Soon I realized that that was getting me nowhere and decided to at least watch a match burn in access of O2 (I
figured that those must be H2O and O2 gas inside the icebath). I got a loud BOOOM and lost my hair in the process. Some acetone must have evaporated as well b/c the thing
was boiling. But the point is that it didn't just burn like a plastic bag full of propane + air, it detonated in the open.:eek:

Just acetone vapour and pure oxygen, nothing too special.
YayItGoBoom! November 25th, 2003, 10:47 PM

If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions about Xylene. I have not heard of it that much, I have heard it called dimethylbenzene, Megalomania turns up nothing. I
found out it is used as a paint solvent, I have some Klean Swipe brand paint thinner, it has that kind of sweet paint thinner smell (is this xylene?). Is yours commercial, or did
you synthesis it yourself? I am interested in creating a simple, economic, yet effective thermobaric device (NOT k3wl bomb).

I cant tell you much more then I buy it in the hardware store, in the cement section in a container marked "Xylene" though it isnt common.
Paint thinner could be any mix of hydrocarbons, they all smell too simular to differentuate with typed words. Xylene seems to be the most energetic in contact with Mn2O7, but
doesnt mean other fuels wont work equally as well for your purpose.
Wonder if there is another powerful oxidizer that ignites in contact with a fuel? could H2O2 or HNO3 at near 100% be used to ignite an FAE cloud? with what fuel?

I am not sure if they could be used, but they can both ingite flammable substances on contact.
I wonder how hellhoffite (HNO3 and nitrobenzene) would fare if dispersed as an FAE, an excess of nitrobenzene would probably help.

I know they can ignite flammable things, though I dont know of a particular fuel that ignites readily in combination with them. Ideally you would have two miscible liquid fuels
with one igniting too fast and the other too slow, by varying the ratio of fuels you vary the delay time before ignition. Its not without its problems, notably temperature, but its
a fun concept to think about.
Concentrated H2O2 probably has the most promise ... but what fuel is the question?
HNO3/nitrobenzene being a binary explosive in its own right I wouldnt think would gain much from dispersal and ignition, actually it would probably detonate as your trying to
disperse it if its as sensitive as HNNM.

Originally posted by Axt
I know they can ignite flammable things, though I dont know of a particular fuel that ignites readily in combination with them. Ideally you would have two miscible liquid fuels
with one igniting too fast and the other too slow, by varying the ratio of fuels you vary the delay time before ignition. Its not without its problems, notably temperature, but its
a fun concept to think about.
Concentrated H2O2 probably has the most promise ... but what fuel is the question?
HNO3/nitrobenzene being a binary explosive in its own right I wouldnt think would gain much from dispersal and ignition, actually it would probably detonate as your trying to
disperse it if its as sensitive as HNNM.
If you're interested in this topic, you would enjoy the book Ignition: An informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants by John D. Clark, 1972 by Rutgers University, ISBN: 0-
8135-0725-1. In the development of liquid rocket propellants, the ideal combinations included those that were hypergolic (igniting on contact with or without a delay). Because
of other constraints such as thrust requirements, stability, storability, etc. they came up with some interesting combinations. HNO3 or N2O4 + N2H4 comes to mind. H2O2 is
simply too tempermental, especially when handling larger quantities. HNO3 (fuming) will ignite turpentine and furfuryl alcohol on contact.

Steering clear of the exotics like N2O4 & N2H4, what do you mean by H2O2 being temperamental? too unstable at high concentrations? delay too variable with temperature? all
of the above and more?
What concentrations of H2O2 are hypergolic, it can be frozen to 62%, heated to ..........? (someone fill that in) so maybe if it is too unstable at 95+% it could be used in lower
concentrations then HNO3?. Ive tried mixing HNO3/turps but nothing happened, HNO3 at ~90% (weighed) doesnt seem to be enough unless its only hypergolic as a mist.
I dont know what im talking about here, im just typing out sentences so someone can correct them.
Try not to quote entire posts, people will jump on you for it, especially if your replying to the immediately prior post.

To clarify:
H2O2 decomposes exothermically, whereas HNO3 does not. 35% to 90%+ concentrations (H2O2) are stable sitting in a plastic bottle. But many organic substance, metals and
metal oxides will catalyse its breakdown. Agitation or contact with rough surfaces will also accelerate its decomposition. In the higher concentrations, this occurs explosively.
This is why phosphoric acid is added as a stabilizer in small amounts (a few percent)--it reacts with any metal oxides and renders them catalytically inert as phosphates.
I can't explain why your HNO3/turpentine didn't work. 90%+ is more than enough concentration for the turpentine to ignite in the liquid state.
In the Ignition book I referenced above, the author goes into detail about HNO3, H2O2 and many other oxidizers. Get the book through inter-library loan. I haven't found it on
the net except for very expensive used copies. After reading it, you'll see that it will have answered just about all the questions you may have had on the topic.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Quote:Try not to quote entire posts, people will jump on you for it, especially if your replying to the immediately prior post.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
So noted.
vulture December 13th, 2003, 07:50 PM

Piranha fluid, 4 parts 98% H2SO4 to one part 35% H2O2, will ignite most flammable substances upon contact. Mixing with HNO3 might improve performance, but I don't dare
to say anything about stability.
EDIT:
A very interesting mixture might be the following: Mix acetone and KMnO4 in a bottle, piranha fluid in another one and mix when ignition is desired...
Should be spectacular....

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > my favourite primary explosive
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View Full Version : my favourite primary explosive
pdb September 29th, 2003, 11:02 AM

I use diazoperchlorat-3-nitroanilin associated with PETN for making detos. It's a cheap, easy-to-prepare primary explosive,
with a remarkable initiation power, greater than fulminates and metal azides. However, it has not found its way in industry
because it doesn't pour easily. Although it is not a problem for my detos, I would like to explore ways to obtain a cristallized
size-controlled product. I never heard of any solvent, but my idea is to prepare it in another medium than water, maybye in
ethanol.
Does anyone know and use this compound ? Would be delighted to exchange experience about it.
Microtek September 30th, 2003, 08:04 AM

This sounds interesting... By which standards is it easy to prepare ? Which precursors are you using ? ( it can be quite hard to
make DDNP if you have to make the picramic acid yourself, even though the DDNP synthesis ought to be reasonably straight
forward ).
Also, please share what you have about its properties ( both litterature and your own experiences ). For instance, is it sensitive
to sunlight ( as I'm told DDNP is ) or degradation by O2 or CO2 from the air ? How about its DDT capability compared to azides
or styphnates.
In short, I'd value anything you could provide as I'm always looking for a better primary.
At the moment, I'm using an intimate mix of silver acetylide-nitrate and MHN ( 1:1 by weight )
which is made by extremely rapidly stirring ( electric paddle ) a suspension of MHN in silver nitrate and then ( still with stirring )
bubbling acetylene through then liquid until the soln just clears of the turbidity.
This composite is sufficiently powerful to initiate PETN even when using less than 0.02 g, but cannot do so in coloumns of less
than 1-1.5 mm diameter. HMTD can, and lead azide probably can as well, but I've run out of NaN3 so...
pdb September 30th, 2003, 10:02 AM

You prepare it from 3-nitroanilin, HClO4, HCl & NaNO2: 1ml HClO4 (70%) + 1ml HCl (30%) inA in 50ml water (you can thus
use much less concentrated acids). Add 1g 3-NA, which will easily dissolve. Prepare a solution of 1g NaNO2 in 20ml water. Both
solutions in an ice bath until they reach 0C, then mix them together at once, and you will get a pale-brown precipitate in the
minute (do not let it unattented for hours, as bigger crystals would grow and spontaneously explode- I experienced it the first
time). Filter, wash and dry. DPNA is a brown powder, altough the literature mentions it as a white compound (I only used very
pure precusors), which detonates in the smallest quantity, without noticeable initiation phase.
It is cited in Urbanski and mostly German books, as well as in some French ones. I had a comparison with azides and
fulminates, but cannot retrieve it right now. In fact, most authors recognize it great initiating value, but do not give much
information (vod, sensitivity...). My own experiments show you can initiate PETN with as little as 5mg DPNA (less if confined).
I kept a sample for 6 months at sunlight without noticing any loss in quantity or in power, although it sligthly darkened. I have
no idea about O2 and CO2 possible impact.
I made Ag acetylide years ago, but abandonned it after a while, as well as all other mineral compounds in favor of DPNA. I
think DPNA deserves more attention.
By the way, has anyone got the CD issued by the Picatinny Arsenal ? Would be interested to get a copy to replace my old
paper edition...

If you've got access to those chemicals, then it sounds like it'd be good, but how many of us do? 3-nitroaniline and perchloric
acid aren't exactly OTC ingrendients you know.
Mr Cool October 1st, 2003, 07:29 AM

Sounds scary to me!! I really don't like diazo compounds...
As I have mentioned before, these (http://orders.mkn.co.uk/cracker/fillings/snaps) work well. I've seen them sold for 6 for
144, and the explosive extracted from two of them (= a few mg) will reliably initiate PETN. I know that the explosive inside is
unchanged after about ten years if it is left in place in the cracker snaps (ie, dark), because the first ones that I used were
about ten years old, it is quite sensitive to friction (hence its use in cracker snaps), and it detonates immediately from flame
(apparently no DDT phase), but it is quite insensitive to shock.
I've used it in 2mm columns (edit: 2mm diameter, not height), but it could be used in smaller tubes for sure, since the
primary did not occupy the whole of the 2mm diameter.
Safe, powerful, reliable, and available cheaply OTC :). You might want to experiment with them, Microtek...
pdb October 1st, 2003, 08:06 AM

To nbk2000: yes, I access such chemicals (including fuming HNO3) throuh a friend's company.
MrCool: 1) you don't have the pleasure of making your own primary ex 2) use caution as the stuff you get from these crackers
might well be AgONC, with which I had several accidents in the past 3) do not generalize: this diazo compound is said
raisonnably stable in the literature.
Mr Cool October 1st, 2003, 04:03 PM

1) I have the pleasure of making my own primary whenever I want (-- (http://www.boomspeed.com/mrcool/Azide.jpg)), but
now I don't have to if I only want to try one quick charge.
2) "use caution as the stuff you get from these crackers might well be AgONC" - Caution is used with everything, that's
common sense in this hobby. It seems to me like silver acetylide nitrate, but I haven't tested. It certainly seems different to
the explosive in these (http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/p-jokes/surprise/fun-snaps.html), which can be extracted with ammonia
solution and is apparently AgONC, although that could easily be due to the different physical characteristics.
3) I wasn't generalising; I don't like diazo compounds! Well, I'm OK with DDNP, but that doesn't have a typical diazo structure.
I'm sure it is stable, and if it works for you then that's fine. I was just saying that I don't like diazo compounds, and
suggesting the cracker snaps as a primary for Microtek, and others, who might not be able to make anything better than
peroxides.
pdb October 2nd, 2003, 08:22 AM

That's fine.
For myself, I HATE peroxydes for their great unstability, inability to store ans weak initiating power. If I couldn't access to most
chemicals, I would rather focus on the good old mercury fulminate, as mercury can been found quite easily. Altogether, the
detos wiil be more reliable and safer.
Microtek October 2nd, 2003, 04:11 PM

Well, I have access to many chemicals, including precursors to the diazo compound that pdb mentions - but not anything that
is labeled "toxic". "harmful" - no problem, "carcinogenic" - likewise, but that "toxic" group includes some useful substances....
Anyways, the thing is that I require primaries of such high performance that even dextrinated lead azide is not good enough (
undextrinated is fine, performance wise, but the crystals are rather large and besides I don't like the way lead azide is
degraded by the air ).
I was thinking of trying those azo-clathrates from Mr Anonymous on the other forum, but I haven't gotten round to making
some more NaN3.
Remarkably, HMTD can do most of the things lead azide can, and is more stable in the air ( of course, HMTD has its share of
problems such as inability to make DDT in small amounts, high sensitivity, highish vapour pressure, etc. ).
So, I suppose I'll try out both DNAP and the azo-clathrates to see what is best.
Jumala October 2nd, 2003, 10:23 PM

Im going around some time with an idea for a simple but powerful detonator .
I also dont like peroxides and complicated primarys.
Save, powerful and reliable sounds very good for me.

So I remembered an old thread of wantsomfet where he detonated ANNM with 3,5g of fine KClO4/Al flashpowder. (No need of
a classic primary).
PETN is a medium sensitive explosive (20cm with 2 Kg hammer) and much more sensitive than ANNM. So it must be easy to
make detonators from 2g PETN and 1g Flash in a Al tube or empty shell. I would put some BP on the flash for better igniting
and thats all.
KClO4/Al Flash is very stable. The military use it in M80 or DM12 in germany which can be stored for years.
My problem: I have no PETN and no place to test it.
Perhaps can a PETN owner spend some time for a test?
pdb October 3rd, 2003, 06:24 AM

Attn Microteck: please keep me abreast of your test with DPNA. You should like it !
Attn Jumala: to initiate PETN in such a way, you will need a critical mass whose amount heavily depends of the confinement
you will be using for making your deto. It might work, but for sure such deto will not be reliable at all, hence useless in my
opinion. If you don't like complex primaries, just stick to Mercury fulminate..east
grendel23 October 3rd, 2003, 06:46 AM

I have made the azo-clathrate described by Mr Anonymous. The preparation went easily, the only difficulty was getting the
very slow addition rates, one drop every several seconds, with my separatory funnel, next time I will use a buret instead.
I have not made DNAP, so I can't compare it to my clathrate, but the claims made in the patent and Mr Anonymous post are
consistent with my experience. The clathrate will DDT in very small quantities, and is effective in compound detonators with a
PETN base charge. I have not tried to quantify the minimum amount needed, but I have had no failures with 150-200mg
combined with 750mg of PETN.
At 200mg each, I will get over 100 detonators out of 5.3g of NaN3, not bad.:)
Here (http://www.geocities.com/sulfuric23/azoclath.jpg) is a picture of my stash. (copy and paste URL)
edit:
Here are the patent (http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?

Docid=03431156&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-
Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DP
ALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm%25
26r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D3431156.WKU.
%2526OS%3DPN%2F3431156%2526RS%3DPN%2F3431156&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=6AB600E844C0) and
thread (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=501) describing this compound.
pdb October 3rd, 2003, 01:26 PM

Grendel23, I'm sorry but cannot find Mr Anonymous' recipe with the search fonction. Would you find posting it in your next
message ? Thx
nbk2000 October 4th, 2003, 01:09 AM

I keep telling people this, but no one seems to listen
SEARCH! That includes the internet in general, not just us.
Use google, the term azo-clathrate, and you'll see what you can find if you just look for it yourself. :rolleyes:
Thanks (notice it is NOT spelt "thx")
Microtek October 5th, 2003, 04:58 PM

Allright, now I've concluded my test-synthesis of DPNA:
I was unable to find 3-nitroaniline at the lab, so I had to go a couple of steps back and start from benzoyl chloride ( not much
more accessible to the average member I suppose ).
Benzoyl Chloride --> Benzamide:

- 4 mL benzoyl chloride was added dropwise with stirring to 20 mL of the strongest possible aqueous ammonia. Temp was
maintained at 5-8 C throughout, and conversion of the acid chloride to the amide ( pure white flakes ) was instantaneous.
- The product was recrystallized from hot water ( though not above 80 C as the amide may hydrolyse to benzoic acid at ca.
100 C ) to obtain slightly more than 4 g pure benzamide.
( when drying the benzamide temp was kept below ca 50 C to minimize conversion to benzoic acid )
Benzamide --> 3-nitrobenzamide:

- 4 g benzamide was dissolved in 24 mL 96 % H2SO4 and cooled to 5 C
- 9 mL 62 % HNO3, cooled to -10 C was added dropwise with magnetic stirring while keeping temp below 8 C.
- After addition, mix was stirred another 10 min, and then soln was poured onto 80 g ice and stirred vigorously to precipitate a
voluminous off-white solid.
- This was filtered off and washed several times with cold water and then added to about 25 mL alcohol and stirred for about
an hour.
- 70 mL water was added slowly to the stirred alcohol soln ( which didn't dissolve all ) to precipitate the product which had by
then attained a much more dense structure.
2.15 g 3-nitrobenzamide was recovered after drying.
3-nitrobenzamide --> 3-nitroaniline by Hofmann rearrangement:
- 6 mL 15 % NaOCl was diluted to 41.5 mL with water, and 1.0 g NaOH was dissolved in it.
- The soln was stirred magnetically and 2.0 g 3-nitrobenzamide was added in one portion.
- The temp was immediately increased to 80 C, and held there for 30 min by use of a paint stripper gun. During this stage,
the solid nitrobenzamide was dissolved and the soln changed colour from pale yellow to deep orange.
- After the 30 min, temp was lowered to 50 C ( the product began to settle out ) and 1.05 g Na2S2O5 in 13 mL water was
added to reduce remaining hypochlorite and stop further reaction ( to 3-nitrobenzoic acid ).
- Mix was cooled to 0 C and filtered.
- Product was recrystallized from 93 % ethanol to recover 0.4 g 3-nitroaniline ( this was extremely wasteful; lots of the product
crystallized slowly in the filtrate, but my goal was the highest degree of purity rather than yield so...)
3-nitroaniline --> DPNA
- 0.6 mL 60 % HClO4 and 0.5 mL 30 % HCl was added to 25 mL water along with a stir bar.
- In another beaker, 0.5 g NaNO2 was dissolved in 10 mL water.
- These to solns were placed in the freezer until temp had reached 0 C.
- 0.4 g 3-nitroaniline was dissolved in the dilute acid.
- With rapid magnetic stirring, the NaNO2 soln was added in one portion to the acidic soln, and within about 10 seconds, a
white precipitate formed.
- Stirring was continued for 5 minutes and the product was collected by filtration. It was then washed in the filter with water until
nearly neutral.
I haven't weighed the product as it isn't fully dried but it is a pure white powder, very similar in appearance to HMTD and when
dry it detonates very violently on contact with flame even in pin head-sized amounts. It makes DDT almost, but not quite, as
fast as silver acetylide-nitrate.
Further testing to follow.

pdb October 6th, 2003, 06:14 AM
Microtek, bravo !
Quite a long way but you made it. It would be very interesting if you could made some comparison tests with other primaries
as regards to DPNA initiating power, which I think is very high. As said before, I succeeded to initiate PETN with 5mg loads only.
Another useful objective would be to find a way to obtain it in a more crystallized shape. Ideas are welcome...

I have done a little preliminary testing of the compound. Firstly, I tested friction sensitivity by placing a few grains on a steel
anvil and grinding them with a ceramic pestle. I took a few strokes with about 3-5 kilograms of weight applied to get them to
explode. For impact sensitivity, a few grains were placed on the anvil as before, and the pestle was used to hit them with
increasing force. It took about the same force as tapping someone on the shoulder when you are angry ( very scientific unit of
measurement don't you think ? ). By comparison, HMTD was not set off by the grinding test, but rather smeared out over the
surface of the anvil, and took a somewhat harder hit with the pestle before exploding.
On the other hand, when I later tested the flame sensitivity by compressing a small amount in a straw and exposing it to the
spit of a thin BP fuse, it did not respond. Adding a little lead styphnate ( about 0.1 mg is more than enough ) on top solves
this problem.
I then tested initiating power in a 2 mm diameter straw by lightly pressing a 1 mm coloumn DPNA on top of moderately
pressed ( 250 psi ) PETN and adding 0.1 mg lead styphnate on top. This was enough to detonate the PETN which exhibited the
same performance as usual. Considering the low density of the DPNA powder, and its similarities to HMTD, a loading density of
0.8-0.9 g/cc is assumed. This would give a charge weight of 2.5-2.8 mg.
I then investigated the possibility of binding the DPNA with NC. In the course of this study, I discovered that acetone is an
excellent solvent for DPNA and that the solid that remains after evaporation of the acetone retains the characteristics of DPNA.
As a consequence of this discovery, I have been thinking that it may be possible to moderate the sensitivity of DPNA by
dissolving it in acetone along with PETN, MHN, ETN, etc and co-precipitating by adding the solution to rapidly stirred water. Also,
adding NG to an NC bound primary has in the past proven to desensitize the compound.
Furthermore, my interest in diazonium compounds was piqued by this activity so I did a search on the patent databases. On
espacenet, I found a russian patent ( RU2080320 ) which patented the use of 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate as a
low sensitivity, high performance primary explosive. The patent was largely written in russian, so I couldn't understand much of
it, but I would think that it could be prepared just like DPNA but from 2,4-dinitroaniline.
For this reason I have been researching a synthetic route to that precursor and have settled on Acetanilide --> 2,4-
dinitroacetanilide --> 2,4-dinitroaniline --> DNBDP

Microtek, I wish I could devote as much time as you do to experimenting.
Your assessment of the minimum load to initiate PETN confirms my own experience with DPNA (<5mg). In the same
conditions, how much of the so-called double salts did you need ?
About your empiric measurement of mechanical sensitivity, I wonder I there would be any way to find a used Julius Peter
apparatus, or build something resembling it that could reliably compare sensitivity of various primaries ("absolute"
measurement doesn't make much sense as it heavily depend on the crystals shape and size).
I didn't have a chance to test DPNA solubility in acetone, but when making detos with PETN, I use acetone and had noticed
that it didn't only moist DPNA, but seemed effectively to dissolve it. Your confirmation is a hope that we might find a way to
obtain a product with a better apparent density and better "pourring" specs.:)

By the way, I forgot to post the reaction equation:
C6H4(NH2)(NO2) + HCl + HClO4 + NaNO2 -> C6H4(N=N-ClO4)(NO2) + NaCl + 2 H2O

138 -> 249.5
you should in theory get 1.8g DPNA from 1g 3-nitroanilin. In fact, I never exceeded 55% of the theorical yield, i.e. roughly 1
for 1 in weight. The colder, the better.
Hystrix October 9th, 2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Microtek
Furthermore, my interest in diazonium compounds was piqued by this activity so I did a search on the patent databases. On
espacenet, I found a russian patent ( RU2080320 ) which patented the use of 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate as a
low sensitivity, high performance primary explosive. The patent was largely written in russian, so I couldn't understand much of
it, but I would think that it could be prepared just like DPNA but from 2,4-dinitroaniline.
This patent contains no description of preparation. It's only pointed there that raw materials are commercially available. Also
it's written that stuff is thermally stable (230 deg. C. vs. 169 for DPNA), less sensitive to impact (18 cm vs. 9 for DPNA). Its
VoD is 7.0 km/s (while DPNA has 5.8), and 14 mg of stuff is required for TNT detonation (vs. 45 mg of DPNA).
PS Impact sensitivity is for 1 kg; 50% of explosions
KABOOOM [pyrojustforfun] October 10th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Microtek that method was very impressive.
a cheaper way to get benzamide:
you add benzoic acid (commenly available) and H2SO4 to MeOH, warm this for a while, pour the whole sol in water, filter and
collect the methyl benzoate, dissolve it in alcohol bubble dry NH3 to get an alcoholic sol of benzamide... or u may wanna
nitrate the benzoic ester to methyl m-nitrobenzoate then convert it to its amide.
also instead of converting PhCOOH to PhCONH2 then nitrating, why not doing the reverse? (nitrating PHCOOH then converting
to its amide in the same way I mentioned for PhCOOH) preparation of 3,5-DNbenzoic acid isn' very hard...
extracted from vogel (http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/vogel.html) :
IV,44. m-NITROANILINE
Prepare a solution of sodium polysulphide by dissolving 40 g. of crystallised
sodium sulphide, Na2S.9H20 (1), in 150 ml. of water, adding 10 g.
of finely powdered sulphur, and warming until a clear solution is produced.
Heat a mixture of 25 g. of m-dinitrobenzene (Section IV,12) and 200 ml.
of water contained hi a 1-litre beaker until the water boils gently : stir
the solution mechanically. Place the sodium polysulphide solution in a
dropping funnel and clamp the funnel so that the end of the stem is
immediately above the beaker. Add the sodium polysulphide solution
during 30-45 minutes to the vigorously stirred, boiling mixture, and boil
gently for a further 20 minutes. Allow to cool; this can be accomplished
more rapidly by adding ice. Filter at the pump and wash with cold
water. Transfer to a 600 ml. beaker containing 150 ml. of water and 35 ml.
of concentrated hydrochloric acid, and boil for 15 minutes ; the m-nitroaniline
dissolves leaving the sulphur and any unchanged ra-dinitrobenzene.
Filter and precipitate the w-nitroaniline from the filtrate by
the addition of excess of concentrated aqueous ammonia solution.
Filter off the product and recrystallise it from boiling water. The yield of
m-nitroaniline (bright yellow needles) is 12 g. ; m.p. 114.
Note.
(1) Crystallised sodium sulphide is very deliquescent and only a sample which
has been kept in a tightly-stoppered bottle should be used.
Methyl m-nitrobenzoate.
In a 1 litre round-bottomed or bolt-head
flask, fitted with a mechanical stirrer, place 102 g. (94 ml.) of pure methyl
benzoate (Section IV, 176) : support a separatory funnel containing a
mixture of 62-5 ml. of concentrated sulphuric acid and 62-5 ml. of
concentrated nitric acid over the mouth of the flask. Cool the flask in an
ice bath to 0-10, and then run in the nitrating mixture, with stirring,
whilst maintaining the temperature of the reaction mixture between 5
and 15 ; the addition requires about 1 hour. Continue the stirring for
15 minutes longer, and pour the mixture upon 700 g. of crushed ice.
Filter off the crude methyl m-nitrobenzoate at the pump and wash it
with cold water. Transfer the solid to a 500 ml. bolt-head flask and stir
it with 100 ml. of ice-cold methyl alcohol in order to remove a small
amount of the ortho isomeride and other impurities. Filter the cooled
mixture with suction, wash it with 50 ml. of ice-cold methyl alcohol, and
dry in the air. The practically colourless methyl m-nitrobenzoate weighs
115 g. and melts at 75-76 ; it is sufficiently pure for conversion into
IV,168. 3,5-DINITROBENZOIC ACID

Method 1. Dissolve 50 g. of pure benzoic acid in 230 ml. of concentrated
sulphuric acid in a litre flask equipped with a ground-in condenser. Add
73 ml. of fuming nitric acid (sp. gr. 1 5) a few ml. at a time . Shake the
flask well and cool in ice water during the addition ; much heat is evolved
and a clear yellow solution results. Add a few fragments of porous porcelain
and heat the mixture gradually on a water bath to 100 during 45
minutes. At 70-80 the reaction may (and usually does) become vigorous ;
moderate, when necessary, by cooling the flask in cold water. Maintain
the mixture at 100 for 15 minutes with occasional shaking, and then
transfer it to an oil bath at 100 ; raise the temperature to 130 over 30
minutes and keep it at 130-140 for 1 hour. Allow the flask to cool:
crystals commence to separate at about 90. When cold, pour the reaction
mixture into 3-4 litres of ice water, filter the separated crystals, wash
with water, and dry. The yield of 3 : 5-dinitrobenzoic acid, m.p. 204,
is 50 g. : this acid is pure enough for most purposes. Upon recrystallisation
from 50 per cent, alcohol (4-5 ml. per gram), the m.p. is
raised to 207.
Method 2. This preparation should be carried out in the fume cupboard
since nitrous fumes are evolved. Place 62 g. of benzoic acid and
300 ml. of concentrated sulphuric acid in a 2-litre round-bottomed flask,
warm on a water bath with shaking until the benzoic acid dissolves, and
cool to 20. Add 100 ml. of fuming nitric acid (sp. gr. 1-54) in portions
of 2-3 ml. Keep the temperature between 70 and 90 by means of
external cooling with cold water ; avoid the evolution, in other than small
quantities, of brown fumes. Cover the flask with a watch glass, and allow
to stand for 1 hour or overnight. Heat the flask on a water bath for
4 hours ; considerable quantities of nitrous fumes are liberated, v Allow
to cool to room temperature, preferably with mechanical stirring, when
yellow crystals will separate from the solution. Add a further 75 ml.
of fuming nitric acid ; heat the mixture on a water bath for 3 hours, then
in an oil bath at 135-145 for 3 hours. Allow the reaction mixture to cool
and pour it into a mixture of 800 g. of finely-crushed ice and 800 ml. of
water. Allow to stand for 30-60 minutes, filter off the crude 3 : 5-dinitrobenzoic
acid at the pump, and wash it with water until free from sulphates.
Recrystallise the crude acid (66 g. ; m.p. 201-202) from 280 ml.
of hot 50 per cent, alcohol. Collect the recrystallised material and dry
in the steam oven. The yield of 3 : 5-dinitrobenzoic acid, m.p. 207,
is 62 g.
you can even diazotate picramide! (needs conc acids).
some questions:
1. what if there are more amino groups in the ring (in meta positions)? hmm..
2. any info or experiments on using diazonium nitrates as primeries?
3. I guess when using less acids and lower concentrations u get triazens. are these primary explosives? (I assume they are,
but wanna make sure) at least they don't need HClO4

Philou was of the opinion that HClO4 could be made from KClO4 + HCl in water ( in an equilibrium ). This would mean that, as
a HCl / HClO4 mix is already used, KClO4 and conc HCl might work as well.
Edit: I suppose that the perchlorate must be much more insoluble than the chloride, so it doesn't matter were the ClO4- ion
comes from.

After a bit of experimenting, I think I have succeeded in making 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate.
My starting point was acetanilide, but many other precursors could be used instead.
Acetanilide --> p-nitroaniline:
- 0.9 g acetanilide was dissolved in 1.5 mL conc H2SO4
- 1.5 mL conc H2SO4 was mixed with 0.5 mL 62 % HNO3 and added dropwise to the first soln with stirring and cooling. Temp
was kept below 20 C
- After addition was complete, mix was stirred an additional 10 min, and then 10 mL ice water was added with stirring. This
precipitated a large amount of pale yellow solid.
- Mix was then heated to reflux and held there until the solid had dissolved and a sample of the mix was completely soluble in
water ( approx 15-20 min )
- Mix was cooled and then neutralized slowly with 10 mL conc ammonia water. This precipitated o- and p-nitroaniline which was
filtered off.
- The crude product was slowly recrystallized from 2 mL hot ethanol and p-nitroaniline was recovered as long needles ( ortho-
isomer is much more soluble ).
p-nitroaniline --> 2,4-dinitroaniline ( and some 3,4-dinitroaniline )
- 0.5 g nitroaniline was suspended in ca 3 mL glacial acetic acid, and a little conc H2SO4.
- 0.2 mL 96 % HNO3 was mixed with ca. 3 mL 96 % H2SO4 and was added to th NA suspension with stirring, keeping temp
below 15 C.
- After addition, a further 2 mL conc H2SO4 was added dropwise and mix was left to stir for 30 min.
- Mix was drowned in water and basified with ammonia water which precipitated the product.
- The crude product after washing and drying, was added to 25 mL water with 0.5 mL 60 % HClO4 and 0.5 mL 30 % HCl and
was found to be insoluble. ( The reason for this was that I was unsure of whether the p-nitroaniline was converted to
dinitroaniline or not; dinitroaniline is much less soluble in aqueous acid than mononitroaniline ).
- The suspension was filtered and the solid was washed with water and then ethanol.
Yield: 0.30 g
After drying, the product was going to be diazotized, but due to the very low alkalinity of dinitroaniline, the reaction needs to
be performed with nitrosylsulfuric acid:
2,4-dinitroaniline --> 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate:
- 1 mL 96 % H2SO4 was cooled in ice and with stirring, 0.15 g NaNO2 was added in small portions, keeping temp below 10 C.
- Stirring was maintained for 10 min after end of addition.
- Beaker was transferred to a 15 C waterbath and allowed to come to room temp with stirring. Then, the temperature of the
waterbath was raised very gradually ( over ca 20 min ) to 65-70 C and maintained at this temp until all had dissolved.
- The mix was then cooled to 20 C which caused NaHSO4 to precipitate.
- 0.3 g 2,4-dinitroaniline was added with magnetic stirring in very small portions, taking care to avoid any clumping of the
solid. Temp was kept at 20-30 C.
- 4.5 g crushed ice was added to the soln to quench the reaction while stirring was maintained. The soln was then filtered to
remove a small amount of insoluble matter, and 0.2 mL 60 % HClO4 diluted to 5 mL was added in one portion.
- Stirring was maintained for about one minute and then stopped. When the soln was then swirled a little, a fairly large
amount of solid crash precipitated from the liquid.
- The solid was filtered and washed, and a small amount was dried on filter paper to determine some properties.
It is a pale yellow solid which pops when ignited if slightly moist but detonates with even more vehemence than DPNA when
dry. It reliably makes DDT in even single grain amounts just like silveracetylide nitrate.
In the qualitative sensitivity tests it performed much better than DPNA: When hit repeatedly with ceramic pestle on steel anvil
with about as much force as you would use for knocking on a door, it eventually exploded.
When ground with the pestle on the anvil, it did not explode even when I really leaned on it, but was smeared out instead.
I have not tested initiation capacity yet, and may not be able to for a few days.
Kabooom:
any info or experiments on using diazonium nitrates as primeries?
Instead of DPNA, it's possible to prepare diazonitrate-3-nitroaniline in the same way; but this compound is said to be
extremely sensitive (a shock wood against wood is sufficient to make it explode) in an early 1900's German book.
Al Koholic October 14th, 2003, 11:18 AM

Hi all! I've enjoyed this thread a lot and have some info that you all might find somewhat relevant.
Step 1) Naphthalene --> mononitronaphthalene via dissolving the naphthalene into glacial AcOH and then adding a mix of
H2SO4 and HNO3, heating at steam bath temp for 30 minutes and precipitating.
Step 2) Oxidation of this product via KMnO4 to yield 3-nitro-phthalic acid.
Step 3) Dissolve this product in glacial AcOH and react with either ammonium carbonate or I suppose you could bubble in NH3
gas to prepare 4-nitro-isoindole-1,3-dione
Step 4) React this with CaCl2, NaOH at 100C to yield 2-amino-6-nitro-benzoic acid
Step 5) Treatment with H2SO4 decarboxylates this compound to 3-nitroaniline.
I think this route is also quite attractive because of its simplicity and ease of conditions and reactants. What do you think of
this proposal Micro?

I think you would at least have problems with mixes of isomers. For instance, in the nitration step. Also, does KMnO4 work for
oxidative cleavage of the ring in naphthalene ? The books I have mention this reaction with conc H2SO4/HgSO4 or O2 and
V2O5 in the vapour phase, but no KMnO4. Maybe it is because these methods are more desirable in industrial setups, but I
would have thought that something as simple as permanganate was worth mentioning...
Hystrix October 17th, 2003, 02:03 PM

2 Al Koholic:
I think such ideas can be applied to high explosives but not to primers. You will obtain potentially highly sensitive compound
with unknown by-products and you won't know its sensitivity correctly. This product may be extremely sensitive and weakly
initiative at the same time.
2 pdb:
afaik diazonium nitrates are worse than perchlorates 'cause they have weaker initiativity and can be "deadly pressed" (similar
to mercury fulminate).

Al Koholic,
Vogel has a method for alpha nitronapthalene, didnt think it required acetic acid, why do you think this would help? Product at
low temp and short time will be virtually all alpha. If seperating is required the alpha is steam volitile along with remaning
napthalene and the beta isnt.
Ok, now cleaving the other ring with NaOH/KMnO4 is fine in theory. Should work ok in practice, acid oxidation probably wont
work very well. When you have a NH2 group on a napthelene ring, KMnO4 will cleave that ring, and when you have NO2, it will
cleave the other ring. Now you have 3-nitro-pthallic acid. If this doesnt work well, you can cleave napthalene, and then nitrate
but watch out becuase it nitrates very readily to mainly the 3 nitro derivitive.
Ok, now you start to lose me. You're dissolving in acetic acid again, and adding ammonia. Why do you think this wont simply
form a salt with acetic acid? I dont follow.
Ok, assuming you form nitropthallimide, I dont follow this next step either. Reaction with calcium chloride and sodium
hydroxide, was this supposed to be a hoffman rearangement with hyperchlorite and hydroxide? Would this only work with a
primary amide? Why would it go in one direction only, ie away from the nitro group?
NExt step, you are decarboxylating with sulphurc acid instead of the more usual hydroxide method, is this best considering if it
works it will be forming a salt at the same time?
Very interesting start, but the rest rather confuses me.
pdb November 4th, 2003, 11:10 AM

Microtek, I have tested DPNA solubility in acetone, and I estimate it in the range of 50-60gr DPNA per liter at 20C.
So far, all my trials to obtain bigger crystals have failed (by cooling and/or dilution with water).
Microtek November 4th, 2003, 01:22 PM

Bigger crystals ? I am more interested in getting smaller crystals ( not that they aren't small to begin with but the smaller the
better ) to reduce sensitivity. I have thought about coating crystals of different explosives such as alfa-HMX ( or other porous
explosives that are reasonably insoluble in acetone ) with DPNA in order to get an insensitive ( to mechanical stimuli ),
powerful compound.
I tried mixing about equal volumes of DPNA and PETN with a drop of acetone and kept mixing while the acetone evaporated.
The resulting cake was easily broken up when not quite dry and, after drying fully, exhibited very high brisance even in small
amounts ( ca 5 mg ) when contained, but only crackled when ignited in the open.
Unfortunately, it was still rather sensitive to impact, but not quite as much as straight DPNA.

Sorry, Microtek, I didn't express myself correctly. I am trying to modify the DPNA crystals' shape inorder to improve its
"pouring" performance, so as to facilitate its loading while making detos for instance. Given the current nature of precipitated
DPNA (needles, it seems), I think this improvement -if proven possible- will not occur without growing the crystals' size. But I
may be wrong.
Anynews about 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate ?
Microtek November 7th, 2003, 03:16 AM

So, what you need is spherical "crystals" ? I think spherical gives the best flowing characteristics.
About the dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate ( DBP ): It initiates at least as well as DPNA, though I haven't made actual
quantitative tests; I have just used it with PETN. The method for diazotizing came from a book on dye chemistry and was
specifically for 2,4-dinitroaniline, but after I had collected the initial batch of crystals and the filtered mother liquor had stood
for a while, a second crop precipitated. I collected this in a second filter and found it to be non-initiating in nature, so I think
that it must be impurities in the dinitroaniline or come from loss of nitrogen from the diazocompound.

Right: spherical crystals give "pourability" and ensure a good natural sensity. Something like AgN3 re-crystallized from NH4OH,
which from these criteria is the nest among all the primaries I have prepared so far.
Regarding DBP, I am tempted to prepare some, starting from commercial grade 2,4-dinitroaniline but am wondering if it is
worthwhile the trial, compared to DPNA's performance.
Microtek November 8th, 2003, 09:53 AM

I would say that if you have access to 2,4-DNA then it is worth it, mostly because of the decreased sensitivity compared to
DPNA. Performance wise it should be better as well ( 14 mg DBP to initiate TNT vs 45 mg for DPNA ). The only drawback of DBP
compared to DPNA is that it is slightly more bothersome to diazotize via nitrosylsulfuric acid than with simple HNO2, but it is
not particularly difficult and doesn't take a long time either.
Rosco Bodine November 22nd, 2003, 12:05 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grendel23
I have made the azo-clathrate described by Mr Anonymous. The preparation went easily, the only difficulty was getting the
very slow addition rates, one drop every several seconds, with my separatory funnel, next time I will use a buret instead.
grendel23 ,
If you remove the stopcock plug from the funnel ,

you can make a small "trickle notch"
in the edge of the bore in the plug with a needle file
or a very small drill bit so that a clean cutoff is prevented .
Then a second notch must be cut on the other end of the

bore of the opposite side of the plug , ( on a diagonal through the bore ) .
Study the way the valve works
and you will see how to do this modification successfully .
pdb February 10th, 2004, 12:18 PM

Microtek, I received 100g of 2,4-dinitroanilin and am about to try preparing 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate.
However, I would like to know if before going the nitrosylsulfuric acid way, you had a chance to try the method used to make
DPNA.
Also, what do you think of the equation:

C6H3(NH2)(NO2)2 + H2SO4 + NaNO2 + HClO4 -> C6H3(N=N-ClO4)(NO2)2+ NaHSO4+2 H2O
Which according to you trial, should be achieved in two steps:

2 H2SO4 + NaNO2 -> NaHSO4 + HNOSO4 + H2O
C6H3(NH2)(NO2)2 + HNOSO4 + HClO4 -> C6H3(N=N-ClO4)(NO2)2+ H2SO4 +H2O
Microtek February 11th, 2004, 01:45 PM

The problem with doing it the usual way, is that 2,4-dinitroaniline is simply too insoluble in water, and that dilute acids are not
strong enough to protonate it to the anilinium ion. There is a discussion of this in one of the dye-chemistry books that
Polverone has made availible.
Regarding the equation, the reaction actually takes three or four steps:
- Preparation of nitrosylsulfuric acid.
- Addition of dinitroaniline to form dinitrobenzenediazonium sulfate.
-( dilution and, if neccessary, filtration to remove unreacted dinitroaniline ).
- Addition of perchloric acid or sodium perchlorate to precipitate insoluble DBP.
pdb February 12th, 2004, 05:44 AM

OK, that makes sense.
However, I thought the filtration step was required to remove NaHSO4, not dinitroaniline in excess. Does that mean that
NaHSO4 dissolves when you diluate the solution ?

Microtek, at last I found some time to try the synthesis of 2,4-dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate.
Firstly, I tried the same process than with DPNA, using concentrated acids (HCl 38%, HclO4 72%): as you had predicted, I
couldn't achieve dissolution of 2,4-dinitroaniline.
Therefore, I scrupulously followed your way:
Everything went smoothly, according to your own detailed description of the process. In the last step, I obtained an abundant
precipitate in 45secs after addition of the perchloric acid. This precipitate turned the solution in beige. However, once filtrated
and washed on filter, the sediment appeared to be bi-colored, i.e. dark beige on top and pale beige or even white in the
inner layer ! It is not the first time I have to deal with a bi-color sediment on filter and I hate it as it is difficult to know where
the contamination come from (air oxygen ? hydrolysis ?). I started to let it dry, and it seemed that the brown portion was
getting darker I decid ed to wa sh it another time, withou t waiting for complete dryne ss. Surprisingly, th is time the filtrate came
very dark brown (I tho ught the filte r had go t an hole which prove d untrue after checking). I chose to stop was hing a nd let the
precipitate dry: again, there are distinctively two colors, a pale beige and now a very dark brown. When it is dry, I will try to
isolate a little of each to check its behaviour.
Microtek February 26th, 2004, 04:12 AM

Strange....
Mine had a uniform yellow/orange colour which it retains today, more than 4 months after it was prepared.

Microtek, although I use 99% pure dinitroaniline, working with this kind of substance is sometimes confusing because of their
dyeing power... So I will make another try, and this time I will filtrate just after the precipitate appears, in order to avoid any
possible by-reaction (this time, I had maintained stirring 10min after precipitation).
I found no difference between the different flavours -colorwise- of the sediment... they all pop violently, without DDT since still
moist.
Do you see any other way to preparate it besides the nitrosylsulfuric acid one ?

Microtek, I made a second batch.
I multiplied your own proportions by 4, but slightly decreased the amount of dinitroaniline, which allowed me to skip the first
filtration, as there were no insoluble matter.
This time, from the moment the dinitroaniline had been diazotated by the nitrosylsulfuric acid, I took appropriate precautions
in order to keep temperature in the [0,5C] range until final washing, so as to avoid any possible decomposition of the
product with production of N2.
It worked perfectly and I got on the filter a pale lemon yellow precipitate, homogeneous in color. But the trouble soon began:
minute after minute while I was still washing with ice distillated water, the precipitate began to darken, at least in surface, and
turned brown in less of 5 minutes. Simultaneously, the filtrate, initially pale yellow, turned also darker.
I stopped washing and let dry. With evaporation of the water, the sediment became more pale and ended as a beige powder,
agglomerated in a layer easily secable.
But the worst is to come: when ignited by a flame, an amount of the size of a ma tch head which is n ot that little for a
primary- would violently pop, with a luminous flash, without DDT. In fact, it reminds me Hg(ONC)2, without the little cloud of
sm oke
I suspect it would easily go DDT if confined or in bigger qu antity, but the sam e a m o u nt of DPNA a n d e v e n a tenth of it- would
detonate with impressive mechanical effect.
So, what is wrong ? Why do we disagree so much about its behaviour ? I double checked I was using 2,4DA and not 2,6.
I also left a tiny amount overnight in a few ml of water, and the next day it was almost all gone, and the water had turned
brown ! I do not want to bother you with this, but if you want to do me a favour, would you mind put a tiny sample of yours in
water, to check if it colours the water and if it eventually dissolves ?
I was so frustrated that I undertook preparation of azo-clathrates with Pb(NO3)2 and got a nice easy flowing bright yellow
powder. But besides the fact that its sensitivity to flame avoids addition of lead styphnate, its sensitivity to mechanical stress
remains high and not so different from pure lead azide, limiting its interest (might be the reason why these compounds did
not show up in public papers since the 1969 patent).
Rosco Bodine February 28th, 2004, 01:58 PM

(SNIP)
I was so frustrated that I undertook preparation of azo-clathrates
with Pb(NO3)2 and got a nice easy flowing bright yellow powder.
But besides the fact that its sensitivity to flame avoids addition
of lead styphnate, its sensitivity to mechanical stress remains high
and not so different from pure lead azide, limiting its interest
(might be the reason why these compounds did not show up
in public papers since the 1969 patent).
What most probably limited the interest in the azo-clathrates is
technical obscurity more than any technical deficiency .
By understanding the process by which they are made and then

adjusting the synthesis to produce a desired clathrate type ,
the properties of the clathrate produced can be varied , and
that includes sensitivity to impact , which is directly related
to crystalline size for the azo-clathrates in the same way as is
true for other primary explosives . You trade bulk density for
lower impact sensitivity by making the azo-clathrate in smaller
crystalline form . Lower temperatures and more concentrated
solutions favor smaller crystals , while higher temperatures and
less concentrated solutions favor larger crystals . This is a general
rule for such syntheses and for all crystallizations .
Lead azide itself is not unduly sensitive to mechanical stress if

the crystal size being used is appropriate for the application .
That is what makes possible its use in firing trains in artillery
shells , where it must not detonate prematurely from the shock
of the projectile being fired . Even mercury fulminate has been
used in that regard , and fulminate is far more sensitive than
azide . So crystalline size and form is a definitive factor for
the practicality of a specific compound to a specific application .
The same importance of crystalline form and size is equally true
for secondary high explosives , where all the factors relating
to the explosive are directly related to the crystalline form .
My own sample of the 4/12 azo-clathrate was yellow , free-flowing

microcrystalline powder , similar to what you described .
The 4/11 azo-clathrate as made by the patents instructions

gives a lower density product in lower yield . The acetate
containing variant of the patent is a fluffier powder still .
Don't be too hasty in making negative general conclusions until *after*

you do more extensive experiments regarding that class of compounds
which have been so little reported in the literature .
The truth is that the azo-clathrates are probably the highest art
in the way of initiating explosives which are attainable from
relatively simple precursors and using simple equipment .
There are marginally superior initiating explosives which are known ,

but the added effort and expense for the production of those
tetrazole and triazole derivatives and other "exotics" is unjustified
except for certain highly specialized applications .

Rosco Bodine, you know your subject pretty well, and it is a real pleasure as it is not always the case on this forum.
To be sure I properly understand your ideas, I would try to sum them up by saying that the interest of using the azo-
clathrates lies in the fact that by varying the precursors and/or the experimental conditions (temperature, stirring,
concentrations, timing), they offer much more room than lead azide alone to modify and control the specifications of the final
products Righ t ? I wou ld fully a gree with that, but on the other hand I am not so sure that in the real life mos t of the
requiremen ts canno t be met by conventional products But for the sake an d plea sure o f experimenting, the clathrate s are
definitively great stuff, and I swear I will not mention them any more without a minimum of respect !
However, I cannot agree more with your comments about the race towards costly exotic tetrazoles and the like.
Regarding the only flavour I made so far (example 5, i.e. with Pb(NO3)2), I was surprised (and a little disappointed) to see
that tiny amounts would deflagrate iso detonate, when in the same quantity lead azide would naturally detonate: the picrate
and nitrate show there an "extinguishing" effect (improper spelling and wrong term, but I have no dictionary handy) on the
azide that I wouldn't have suspected. By the way, do you have any data about its initiating power ?

Rosco Bodine, you know your subject pretty well,
and it is a real pleasure as it is not always the case on this forum.
Credit what I know to surviving forty years of experiments beyond my first

synthesis of mercury fulminate and being disappointed with its explosive
properties in small amounts . The operative term for tiny critical mass for
primary explosives is "unequivocality" . Higher unequivocality is not
necessarily desirable , especially because it often introduces other
undesirable properties . The idea of the clathrates is to somewhat
"tame the wild beast" that is lead azide , without breaking its legs .
To be sure I properly understand your ideas, I would try

to sum them up by saying that the interest of using the azo-clathrates
lies in the fact that by varying the precursors and/or the experimental conditions
(temperature, stirring, concentrations, timing),
they offer much more room than lead azide alone to modify
and control th e specificatio ns of the final prod ucts Righ t ?
Exactly , you can make an azo-clathrate more or less unequivoval ,
and vary its other properties to suit your requirement .
I would fully agree with that, but on the other hand I am not so sure that in the real life
most of the requirements cannot be met by conventional products
What "conventional" products do you mean ?
But for the sake and pleasure of experimenting,
the clathrates are definitively great stuff,
and I swear I will not mention them any more without a minimum of respect !
However, I cannot agree more with your comments about the race
towards costly exotic tetrazoles and the like.
Regarding the only flavour I made so far (example 5, i.e. with Pb(NO3)2),
I was surprised (and a little disappointed) to see that tiny amounts
would deflagrate iso detonate, when in the same quantity lead azide would naturally detonate: the picrate and nitrate show
there an "extinguishing" effect (improper spelling and wrong term, but I have no dictionary handy)
on the azide that I wouldn't have suspected. By the way, do you have any data about its initiating power ?
You would understand better the DDT "phenomena" from experiments

with lead styphnate / lead azide mixtures . A similar "detuning" of
the lead azide will occur with mixtures rich in lead styphnate .
Tetracene and DDNP mixtures with azides show the same effect .
Actually the DDT "critical mass" is very small and is not undesirable .
If microdetonators are being made , a hotter clathrate or silver azide ,
or an exotic would be better .
It is possible to make a 4/17 chlorate containing clathrate which is plenty hot ,
but for safety and general use , the 4/12 nitrate compound is
plenty enough energetic to do the job of safely initiating even picric acid
as a lightly compressed charge in a plastic detonator casing .
If you make a small pellet of the 4/12 with dextrine , the DDT quantity
is what ten or fifteen milligrams in open air ? Confined , the DDT critical
mass is much smaller . Unequivocality is something desired not to be
absolute , as for the tiniest single crystal to detonate , because in
practice it is a *mass* of many crystals which will comprise the charge ,
and the safety as well as the performance of that mass of crystals is what
is the "business" performance of that composition .
The "phlegmatizing" effect is intentional and is part of the improvement

over straight lead azide , which is "too unequivocal" for safe use .
Think of the azo-clathrates as a firing train contained within each molecule ,
where just the right amount of azide is contained as an encapsulated ,
stabilized , more user-friendly form .
grendel23 February 28th, 2004, 11:43 PM

My azo-clathrate (4/12) will DDT in amounts of around 25mg or so, when bound with a little dextrin first, that is plenty hot for
me.
There is data on initiation efficiency in the original patent, 16mg to initiate PETN or RDX, this may not correspond exactly with
the material which Rosco or I have made, but it does indicate these are very potent compounds.
I agree with Rosco that this is probably the most useful high performance primary around; ease of synthesis, easily obtained
precursors, good stability, reasonable sensitivity, desirable physical properties (free flowing powder), much lower static
sensitivity than straight lead azide, flame sensitive (no need for lead styphanate), very economical (24g primary from 5.3g
NaN3), and world class performance.
There are other materials with some of these traits, but I am not aware of any that posses them all.
The only caveat is that the precursors are very toxic.
For any of the members who wish to make the jump past organic peroxides and start making compound dets, this is a good
choice.
Rosco Bodine February 29th, 2004, 01:16 AM

One real advantage of the azo-clathrates is their storage stability
even under adverse conditions . I have samples made several years
ago and stored outdoors where temperature ranges from -10 C to 60 C
along with humidity of the tropics , and the material remains
unchanged from the day it was made . Lead azide stored under the
same conditions steadily deteriorates . From what I have observed ,
the azo-clathrates are absolutely storage stable . You can prepare
the material and it doesn't slowly decompose , but remains useful ,
preserving the investment of time and effort which was put into
the synthesis . Detonators in which the azo-clathrate is loaded
would likely retain their "freshness" and power , indefinitely .
pdb March 1st, 2004, 06:58 AM

Rosco Bodine, I wouldn't be able to write as good poetry as some others, but I do share your fascination for primaries, and
azo-clathrates, because of their sophistication, will be come for me a new land of exploration.
You would understand better the DDT "phenomena" from experiments

with lead styphnate / lead azide mixtures . A similar "detuning" of
the lead azide will occur with mixtures rich in lead styphnate .
Tetracene and DDNP mixtures with azides show the same effect.
I have been doing numerous tests with such mixtures and others over more than 25 years now, so I am full aware of this
so-called "detuning" effects. My surprise just comes from the fact that I would have tought that the relative proportion of lead
azide entrapped in the complex would have transmitted to it the capability of easy DDT. Which shows, another time, how
suspicious I have to stay vis - -vis my intuition
The operative term for tiny critical mass for primary explosives is "unequivocality".
I can translate the term in my own language, but am still not sure of the idea you put in (is it of your own invention ?): are
you meaning that when assessing the critical mass, one must choose the value giving 100% DDT iso 50% ? Or what ?
It is possible to make a 4/17 chlorate containing clathrate which is plenty hot.
Would you mind explain the operative principles, in particular do you need first to prepare Pb(ClO3)2, or can you use another
chlorate salt (K, Na) sometime in the process ?
What about a perchlorate flavour ?
Have you ever tried also to substitute Ag to Pb ?
Coming back to the nitrate 4/12 compound, how can you be sure that it is not contaminated with free precipitated lead azide ?
Rosco Bodine March 1st, 2004, 09:43 PM

The term "unequivocality" for a primary is indeed a term that
I found the need to invent . Sorry for creating any confusion for
using my own terminology . In using the the term "unequivocality" ,
what I mean is that property of a primary explosive related to its
"minimum critical mass for DDT" .
An unequivocal primary explosive would be a material which has no

DDT minimum critical mass but is so "hot" that even a single tiny crystal
detonates directly . Absolute unequivocality would be a single molecule
of detonation "critical mass" for DDT , or complete DDT irrelevancy .
I hope that explains the term "unequivocality" as I have used it .
The observation which I have made is that even lead azide does not demonstrate
single crystal unequivocality to high order detonate , but does show unequivocality
in single crystal amounts to low order detonate . From there , increasing the
amount of charge , while keeping to an efficient "column diameter" for the charge ,
there is reached a high order "transition threshold" where
a sudden jump in the output energy occurs . The same characteristic
increase in output from a low order detonation to a high order detonation
is a general rule in my experiments for many explosives , primary explosives
and also for secondary explosives . That consistently observed low order
to high order transition is a distinctly separate phenomena from DDT .
A detonation sequence actually goes through about four distinct stages
to reach a self-sustaining high order velocity and final output from a
well designed detonator . Some or all of these accellerations may occur
within the individual elements , including the primary explosive . The
self-accelleration of a good primary is important , but so long as it is
*reasonably rapid* , then you will have a good initiator .
What my experiments have shown is that the geometry of the "pellet"
of the initiator should be regarded as a "ribbon charge" sitting atop
the base charge , with from one quarter to one half an additional quantity
of primary in excess , to allow for the "accelleration run" where the ignition
is followed by DDT and then the transition to high order , which carries through
the remainder of the pellet of primary , that portion functioning as the "ribbon charge" .
The output transition I describe can be observed with HMTD detonators
and also fulminate caps , where sand tests will show the output "jump" for
incrementally increased charges . DDT is just one initial step of the
detonation sequence . The rapidity of the acceleration from low order to high order ,
can more than "make up the difference" in a composition , where the operative factor
is what is the performance of the whole "pellet" of the initiator in tandem
with the base charge . The unequivocality of the primary is therefore not at all
the most important concern in a conventional sized or a large sized detonator .
Only in a microdetonator , where the size constraint is a factor ,
would there be a need to "nitpick" concerning how many milligrams
of which primary is "better" for that use . Anyone who is of the opinion
that straight lead azide is somehow "better" than an azo-clathrate because
straight lead azide is a more unequivocal primary , is welcome to use
straight lead azide . For a short term storage , or hermetically sealed cap ,
or for some specialized microdetonator application , straight lead azide
or silver azide may certainly be superior .
The general method for some of the variants of the azo-clathrates is

described by the patents . To form the chlorate variant which I mentioned
requires changing the proportions of the precursors accordingly , and the
chlorate is derived from sodium chlorate or potassium chlorate in reaction
with the corresponding equivalent of added lead nitrate to the system ,
which results in lead chlorate forming in solution . This is analogous to
the acetate containing variant described in the patent , where sodium
acetate contributes the acetate ion to an added amount of lead nitrate .
The 4/17 chlorate variant is one of the many "designer" variations which
are possible . Do not hold me to the 4/17 figure for the chlorate variant ,
4/16 may be closer to the truth . I have not completed long term storage
tests and periodic microscopic examinations to bear out my preliminary
identification of the crystalline material . The subject of a microscope
brings the answer to your final question . When you have a microscopic
examination of crystalline material that is uniform through the sample ,
crystals that are "clean" and consistent in appearance and do not
change color or granulation over time , it is a "pretty good" confirmation .
Add other factors like no change in weight over time , no development
of odor or other observed physical change , and it is sufficient for
reasonable certainty that you actually do have what you think
you've probably got . I generally don't post a formula for a synthesis
which has been done only once and so far that applies to the 4/17 chlorate
variant . I'll think about it , but really the 4/12 nitrate was a subsequent
choice for improved safety considerations , and is really in no need of
improvement , to my thinking . I wasn't keeping the best secret for myself ,
but posted the synthesis for the more proven and better researched 4/12
variant .
About the perchlorate variant , no I haven't tried it but did think about it
when I was making the 4/17 chlorate variant . I was mostly looking
at clathrates for which all precursors were OTC . The perchlorate would
probably be more stable and have a better oxygen balance , so it is a
good idea . I have some ammonium perchlorate on hand so I may
give it a try . If you wish to experiment with the azo-clathrates ,
you will find that a modification of the patents method gives better yields
and results . First form the basic lead picrate / lead nitrate double salt ,
then add any other constituent lead salts to form the parent clathrate ,
and then very very slowly , introduce the azide to its saturation limit .
I haven't tried introducing any silver compounds in the azo-clathrate ,

nor can I conceive what would be the purpose of introducing silver .
So far I have only worked with several of the lead containing complexes .
pdb March 2nd, 2004, 08:03 AM

I hope that explains the term "unequivocality" as I have used it .
OK, I can capture now what "unequivocality" means for you, although I hardly see the connection with the linguistic root (it is a
critic of my own lack of knowledge).
The observation which I have made is that even lead azide does not demonstrate single crystal unequivocality to high order
detonate , but does show unequivocality in single crystal amounts to low order detonate .
Me too, I have noticed a transition with a blue flame (I think) in some instances. But, regarding the detonation order, what
about lead azide long needles you can obtain by superposing 3 solutions (Pb nitrate, Na nitrate, Na azide) and letting
diffusion do its task, although they will detonate spontaneously if left in the solution beyond a certain size: how would you call
their detonation regime ?
The same characteristic increase in output from a low order detonation to a high order detonation is a general rule in my
experiments for many explosives , primary explosives and also for secondary explosives .
Yes, best illustration is nitroglycerin. But in my opinion, it differs from what one can observe with primaries. If for instance you
ignite a column of Hg fulminate loaded in a tube, you will observe a jump from deflagration to detonation after a short
distance: in this case, would you call deflagration "low order detonation" or would you claim there are really two detonation
regimes (which I didn't observe).
The rapidity of the acceleration from low order to high order, can more than "make up the difference" in a composition, where
the operative factor is what is the performance of the whole "pellet" of the initiator in tandem with the base charge . The
unequivocality of the primary is therefore not at all the most important concern in a conventional sized or a large sized
detonator .
Fully agree with that.
Only in a microdetonator , where the size constraint is a factor ,

would there be a need to "nitpick" concerning how many milligrams
of which primary is "better" for that use .
Fully agree again.
To explain some of my previous questions, I have to say that my interest is twofold: on the one hand, I need to make safe
and reliable detonators, and DDT is certainly not the criteria I use to pick up the primary (unless the latter is incredibly difficult
and/or costly to prepare). I would use dextrinated lead azide or DDNP until I met DPNA (see 1st post in this thread), which I
particularly like because of its remarkable initiating power (<5mg for PETN). On the other hand, I am quite fascinated by the
capability of s ome primaries to d etonate in the tinie st amounts in the open air it's ju st a "game", no practical ap plication is
sought. I wou ld cite Ag fulminate (but I stopped "playing" with it after n umerous acciden ts), Ag a ce tylyde, DPNA etc However,
in spite of the documentation I have gathered along the years, I didn't find much about detonation mechanism of micro
charges. I tried to launch a thread about it months ago, I failed:
The general method for some of the variants of the azo-clathrates is

described by the patents .
I am sorry, I hadn't read yet the patents issues by Mr. Kennedy previously to its '1969 one before asking you.
To form the chlorate variant which I mentioned requires changing the proportions of the precursors accordingly , and the
chlorate is derived from sodium chlorate or potassium chlorate in reaction with the corresponding equivalent of added lead
nitrate to the system , which results in lead chlorate forming in solution .
Yes but it you make the synthesis with this mixture, which ion would prevail ? What about the risk of a mutual contamination
in such a complex structure as a clathrate ?
When you have a microscopic examination of crystalline material that is uniform through the sample , crystals that are "clean"
and consistent in appearance and do not change color or granulation over time , it is a "pretty good" confirmation . Add other
factors like no change in weight over time , no development of odor or other observed physical change , and it is sufficient for
reasonable certainty that you actually do have what you think you've probably got .
M m m ye s, I can un dersta nd you cannot go further in absence of spectography e quipm ent, and your confirmation is certainly
sufficient as regards to practical use of the compound. However, have you tried to prepare 4/12 with an excess of lead and
azide in order to voluntarily contaminate the compound, to check if you could really detect it through the means you
mentioned ?
The perchlorate would probably be more stable and have a better oxygen balance , so it is a good idea . I have some
ammonium perchlorate on hand so I may give it a try .
I have perchloric acid.
I haven't tried introducing any silver compounds in the azo-clathrate , nor can I conceive what would be the purpose of
introducing silver .So far I have only worked with several of the lead containing complexes .
My suggestion just comes from the "tradition", which is that when experimenting any primary with a heavy metal ion, one
would try other heavy metals of the traditionnal family (Ag, Pb, Hg, Cu & more exotic ones).
Rosco Bodine March 2nd, 2004, 01:51 PM

The root word "unequivocal" describes a definitive status about anything
which is absolutely free from any uncertainty or ambiguity .
In my experience , I searched for a word which would seem correct
for describing scenarios involving primary explosives which progress
to *high order* detonation even in very small quantities which are
in the range of a few tens of milligrams .
Applying that standard , silver fulminate is an unequivocal primary ,

but mercury fulminate is not . Neither are lead styphnate nor
basic lead picrate unequivocal primaries , even though they do
undergo DDT in milligram amounts , the detonation is low order
and incapable of shock initiating most secondary high explosives .
When I think of unequivocal primaries , I am speaking of the sorts

of materials where a small pellet in the range of a few tens of milligrams
will high order detonate , particularly if unconfined , and will
demonstrate its velocity with an ability to cleanly cut a clear
opening in a thin aluminum witness plate . A charge half the
size of a BB which shows metal cutting brisance when flame
initiated , is in my estimation and comparisons with many energetic
materials , an "unequivocal primary explosive" , unequivocal meaning
there's no *ifs* , *ands* , or *buts* about the material ....
it is for damn sure explosive :)
Yes there are two detonation regimes for many if not most explosives .
I don't just claim that to be true , but declare it is a certain fact
also observed by many others and confirmed by many tests on
many explosives . If a flammable explosive is ignited , and a sufficient
amount of the material is present in the correct shape and with the
right amount of confinement , the ignition will be followed by a deflagration
accellerating to detonation . The first evidence of detonation may be
a low order detonation , particulaly common for a flame initiated ignition ,
and then that low order detonation can further accelerate to a higher
velocity "high order detonation" . So from ignition to high order detonation
involves four steps . For the steps to be completed , there must be present
a certain "crititcal mass" of the explosive , in a geometry which is also
favorable in regards to "critical diameter" . Density and crystalline form
are also factors . Density continuity , entrapped air , particle size ,
matrix geometry for mixtures , are other factors which have effect also .
Depending upon what combination of factors is present and the nature
of the initial stimulus which applies to that zone in the firing train ,
the behavior of the detonation can vary . For example , even though
some primaries are flame sensitive , the amount of primary required can be
reduced if it is not required to function as its own igniter , but is initiated by the
low order DDT detonation impulse from a flash igniter like lead styphnate
or basic lead picrate . In such a scenario , the primary does not need to
first ignite , then deflagrate and accellerate through two levels of detonation ,
because the flash igniter functions as a "hammer" which brings the primary
to immediate high order detonation , releasing its entire energy most
efficiently . A good flash igniter can make a primary which is not unequivocal
function as if it were , and can even bring some sensitive base charges
to high order detonation , without the presence of any conventional primary
being required . There are different ways which detonators can be designed
to function to exploit the properties of the materials used .
Regarding the azo-clathrates . I already answered your question about

the ion-exchange . Please study the patents including the earlier patents
regarding the non azide clathrates . The patents and some experiments
will explain it better than I can .
To answer your question about over-saturating the clathrate with lead azide ,
yes I have deliberately done that to see what would happen .
The excess lead azide forms a dusty co-precipitate which coats and mixes
with the crystals of the azo-clathrate . The free lead azide is lighter in color
and is visible as a contaminant mixed with the crystals . The free lead azide
also demonstrates its presence with gradual color change and darkening ,
over time for the sample exposed to the air . It is these observations
which serve as a visual indicator for approximately what is the saturation
limit of azide for a particular clathrate . If a synthesis is attempted and
there is evidence of oversaturation with azide , then the quantity of azide
should be reduced incrementally in subsequent syntheses until a level
of azide is reached where a clean crystalline product is obtained .
pdb March 3rd, 2004, 09:41 AM

Well noted.
However, a mystery remains as to how an tiny amount of loose unequivocal primary (=not deliberately shaped as to make a
pellet) can detonate with enough brisance to cut a thin metal sheet. The transition from low order to highr order detonation in
a cylinder of HE is well known and explained in the literature, but it is a completely different phenomena: one can hardly see
how a shockwave would propagate in a loose powder. And if one concludes that it is the result of successive ignitions of crystals
by the crystals nearby, it doesn't explain the brisance observed (which is not a result of generated gas or dilatation of air, as
silver acetylyde shows when exploding in vacuum).
Coming back to beloved clathrates, when you see the way followed by the successive patents, you may wonder which
conditions are required to "build" such compounds, and, in the case of picrates, if, after adding another compound (lead
azide) to the double salts, you can imagine doing so with another compound. In short, with 4/17, have we reached the limit
where the structure cannot host another molecule of an already contained product or a new one ?
Rosco Bodine March 3rd, 2004, 01:25 PM

The many possible factors involved in explaining detonation
have not been fully explained , that is for sure . Some theories
of my own include infrared transparency of the molecules allowing
multipoint simultaneous chain reaction propogation , reenforced
by the local gravity wave anomaly attendant to the mass changes
that are occuring from electron orbital jumps and photon emission .
There are also the supersonic shock waves which contribute
energy as they travel through a maelstrom of density changes
occuring in the material .
There may be some mathematical way to calculate exactly how many

of what specific molecules can be put together to form a stable clathrate ,
but the only way I have approached the synthesis is by trial and error .
The crystal geometry for a particular clathrate establishes a size limit
for the molecules it may adsorb , so indeed there is a mathematical rule
which governs a particular clathrate in how many of what sized molecules
it may adsorb . To write the equation which applies is beyond my knowledge .
pdb March 10th, 2004, 07:02 AM

Rosco Bodine, I happened to come across the following document while searching the Web for studies about detonics of micro-
charges:
http://www.ceres.ifs.tohoku.ac.jp/~coe/mizukaki13c.pdf
It is not that valuable, but such studies seem to be so rare that they become noticeable !

Rosco Bodine, just to make you aware that I observed my first prepared clathrate with a microscop, and found out it was
composed of tiny needles, some of them bright yellow, the other withe... It obviously not a clathrate but only an intimate mix
of basic picrate and azide. I must confess I had lots of problems with the heating part of my stirrer, which prevented me from
keeping temperature stable. I will redo once I have fixed this f... stirrer.
Rosco Bodine March 21st, 2004, 06:45 AM

The two essentials are accurately measured weights of precursors ,
especially the picric acid and sodium hydroxide , and *very* slow
constant rate , dropwise additions with good agitation , sufficient
to keep the crystals in suspension and not permit them to settle
and accumulate on the bottom of the beaker . You have to have
a good vortex in a tall form beaker , or use a propellor type stirrer
to achieve the good agitation required . You *may* be able to salvage
the batch by diluting it with water , or even better using the filtered
solution if you saved it , and just letting the suspension stir near the
boiling point for two or three hours , adding any makeup water
from time to time for evaporation losses . The reaction has to be
run near the boiling point with slow additions and good agitation
because of the very low solubility of the intermediate and even lower
solubility of the end product . Don't be discouraged or give up .
The process absolutely works and has been confirmed and reconfirmed
by myself and others .
Which clathrate variant did you attempt ?
Did you use the patent process or the modified method ?

I must confess I had lots of problems with the heating part of my stirrer, which prevented me from keeping temperature
stable. I will redo once I have fixed this f... stirrer.
If your stirplate has one of those percentage on/off type "rate controllers"
like on Thermolyne , Cimarec , and some others , maybe a Robertshaw controls
device , IIRC . They have a bimetal strip in the circuit which warms
up as it carries current and breaks the heating circuit through a pair of
silver button contacts , remaking the circuit on cooling just like the
flasher module in an automotive turn signal circuit . The control knob
simply increases the tension opposing the bimetal opening the contacts
so it has to get hotter , conducting current longer before it pops the
contacts open . Usually the problem is that the slight arcing of the
contacts erodes the contacts and widens the gap over time . Such
controls can be overhauled if you have the patience and skill .
Remove the knob and loosen the retaining nut underneath , disconnect
the wires and remove the control from the stirplate housing .
You can carefully pry apart the sheet metal prongs that retain the
bakelite control housing and get to the silver contacts inside to dress
them with a point file or a folded narrow strip of 220 grit sandpaper .
There should be a very light contact pressure when the control shaft
is rotated to the lowest setting of the "ON" range , and the contacts pop
open when cammed apart as the shaft turns to the "OFF" position .
You may have to slightly bend the bimetal strip to adjust for the new
gap after you clean the contacts , to get proper operation . It takes
maybe thirty minutes to overhaul one of these rate controllers if that
is the type you have .
P.S. There is a little spring inside IIRC , so you may want to put a baggie
around the switch to catch it when you slowly separate the housing ,
to spare yourself the proverbial "jack in the box" / now where did that spring
go sort of fiasco , that otherwise is guaranteed :D
pdb March 21st, 2004, 03:32 PM

Rosco Bodine; thanks for your tips about me stirrer. However, I need to replace it.
Which clathrate variant did you attempt ?
Did you use the patent process or the modified method ?
It was the 4/12 flavour with your improved method.
For sure, I will not discourage because my interest is sharp. But it will take some time... and I may not come back on this
subject before some time. ;)
Bert March 23rd, 2004, 02:17 AM

adding any makeup water
from time to time for evaporation losses .
As described by Mr. Anonymous, this procedure would take over 3 hours at near boiling temperatures. What would be a good
level to maintain the "makeup water" at during this synthesis? Somewheres near the original 140 ml ???
nbk2000 March 23rd, 2004, 05:33 AM

Well there's definitaly need for primaries of such potency, as some things I'm reading about use primary charges on the order
of a few milligrams for setting of the base charges of follow-through grenades and other modern munitions.
Tiny primaries are more robust to shock loading than larger charges, meaning more likely to survive slamming through a
concrete wall long enough to explode inside the room, rather than outside or in the wall itself.
Tiny primary charges would also be desirable for shotgun grenades loaded with an IM explosive, to make them safer to fire,
while still be reliable.
Too bad MEM's are out of reach (for now) of the "common" folk 'cause then we'd have all the fixings for microfuzes. :)
[Totally Off Topic]

Things with springs should be opened inside of a pillow case to prevent the "disappearing spring" trick. ;)
Speaking of measuring tiny things, I've obtained an OHAUS triple-beam scale, with .1 gram resolution, at a garage sale for
cheapcheap.
However, the thing has a problem of sticking. :(
I haven't disassembled it yet, but it feels like the pivot is rusty or something like that, and keeping the beam assembly from
freely moving.
Think this is something fixable, or are the tolerances such that it's hosed?
[/Totally Off Topic]
Bert March 23rd, 2004, 12:13 PM

I've obtained an OHAUS triple-beam scale, with .1 gram resolution, at a garage sale for cheapcheap.
However, the thing has a problem of sticking. :(
I haven't disassembled it yet, but it feels like the pivot is rusty or something like that, and keeping the beam assembly from
freely moving.
[/Totally Off Topic]
The pivot is likely dirty, or possibly corroded/bent from improper handling/storage. Careful dissassembly and probably a
cleaning are in order, it isn't difficult. Carefully lift off the little silver covers on either side of the ballance point with a sharp
instrument and take a look- (SHIT! I just found a dead fly in mine looking to see how!) If you need a new pivot assembly,
Ohaus distributors can provide these.
Bert March 23rd, 2004, 07:33 PM

You *may* be able to salvage
the batch by diluting it with water , or even better using the filtered
solution if you saved it , and just letting the suspension stir near the
boiling point for two or three hours , adding any makeup water
from time to time for evaporation losses .
Has this technique of salvageing a batch been shown to be effective, or is this a proposed experiment?

As described by Mr. Anonymous, this procedure
would take over 3 hours at near boiling temperatures.
What would be a good level to maintain the "makeup water"
at during this synthesis? Somewheres near the original 140 ml ???
The total water in the combined solutions was 370 ml ,

so where are you getting your figure ?

Has this technique of salvageing a batch
been shown to be effective, or is this a proposed experiment?
It is a logical proposed method of attempting to salvage the batch ,

since the clathrate is the least soluble material , it would probably
be the purified precipitate which would result from long stirring of
a suspension of its precursors which are more soluble and would
gradually dissolve , then precipitate as the clathrate complex .
In a way it is simply a continuation of the process which should

have originally gone to completion to form the clathrate , but
failed because of too rapid additions or inadequate agitation or
temperature . I have never had a batch go wrong , so there
has been no need to test such a method for driving to completion
an unfinished reaction . The salvage idea was simply a logical
proposed remedy worth trying .
Bert March 24th, 2004, 02:02 AM

The total water in the combined solutions was 370 ml ,
so where are you getting your figure ?
The initial Lead nitrate solution that all the other solutions are added to is 100 ml. I screwed up, I meant 100 ml.
I have never had a batch go wrong , so there

has been no need to test such a method for driving to completion
an unfinished reaction . The salvage idea was simply a logical
proposed remedy worth trying .
Fair enough- I wish I never had a process go bad!
As the reaction kinetics favor the desired product under the near boiling temp/rapid agitation it would seem like a good
guess...
It would be desirable to attempt to recreate the original solution conditions if one had allready discarded the supernatant
liquid? And the discarded solution after the reaction is mostly Sodium nitrate and a bit of Lead nitrate? Also, it would seem to
be possible to just heat longer and stir harder to correct the procedure if one had realized a batch had gone astray before one
had filtered it?
Rosco Bodine March 24th, 2004, 07:50 AM

The low solubilities of the intermediate and end product
requires special technique to be followed and there is no
way to hurry the process , it's just the nature of the
reaction kinetics to take time and high temperature for
the reactions to run to completion . More dilute solutions
might go a bit faster but will also produce larger crystals ,
so you can vary the conditions within reason to fine tune
the process to your liking .
So ,
With additions do go slowly ,

and keep the cauldron hot ,
while stirring not just a little ,
but for sure one hell of a lot :D
To be sure it's best to do it right the first time

than to try to backtrack and estimate how to
patch a reaction gone wrong . Yes it is possible
to observe the reaction and interrupt an addition
if the reaction is lagging , getting too thick to stir
well for example . Let it heat and stir awhile until
the mixture loosens up and then resume the addition .
Add a little water with an eyedropper or wash bottle
to do any "housekeeping" concerning crusted material
if needed . But really you guys seem to be making
a bigger deal of the details than necessary . The
process is really quite simple and straightforward as
organic syntheses go . Unless you do really sloppy
work it is difficult to botch this synthesis .
freaky_frank March 24th, 2004, 06:18 PM

My favorite is still AP just be carefull with it...easy to produce, cheap....and well it is dangerous as all primairy's exept this one,
is crap because it isn't storeable for long but b/c it's so easy to make you just make some more again :)
And well I'm not allowed to make explosives from my parents, so it would actually be easier "to have some primairy lying
around"...

The
process is really quite simple and straightforward as
organic syntheses go . Unless you do really sloppy
work it is difficult to botch this synthesis .
It's a little harder than making AP. But the results speak for themselves.
Witness plates are .020" T-1 (soft) Aluminum, 4" X 4" squares.
nbk2000 March 25th, 2004, 01:49 AM

People always expect superior results from inferior performance.
In other words, if you want the best results, you have to put in the work.
There's nothing wrong with AP, as it is simple and easy to make, but if you want high performance in a small package, you'll
have to put in that extra effort.
Besides, while standing in the line at the school cafeteria, you can totally trump the k3wLz bragging about their AP making
skills when you bust out with the azo-clathrate microdets you make that are small enough to fit several on a dime. :p
Mr Cool March 27th, 2004, 04:04 PM

Hello :).
This seems like a good place to ask... I'm just wondering if anyone has any good info on tetrazole-based primaries? I have
rather a large amount of 5-aminoT., not much to do with it though! The nitrate salt is fun, the complex formed with silver
nitrate (and other transition metal oxosalts) is OK, but I'm sure this stuff has more potential. Ditetrazolyltriazine is surprisingly
reluctant to detonate fully (just little "crack!" noises, and the grain hops around), and diazotetrazole is just scary.
All searches that I've been doing either result in something totally irrelevant, or formulations for non-azide gas generators...
So, anyone have patent numbers that they could direct me to? Preferably things that I can make from 5-aminoT., but I'm
interested in any. I may be able to find a way to convert it. A way of making 5-nitroT. would be good...
Thanks :).
This has reminded me, I must try out some clathrates one day...
Rosco Bodine March 27th, 2004, 09:21 PM

GB185555
US1511771
GB195344
GB1069440
US3310569

Thanks for those Rosco. I'll be trying a few out soon! I had a go at making azotetrazole today. I didn't have any
permanganate to hand, so had a go at oxidation with acidified dichromate, but no luck :(. I'll get a little permanganate from
the chemist's and play around a bit more. Not sure if to use it basified or acidified, but some experimentation should help
there.
Well, I have good news!! Good news for me anyway, having lots of 5-aminotetrazole...
After using a better patent search engine, which I had until recently forgotten about (www.espacenet.net), I have discovered
the process for producing the copper salt of 5-nitrotetrazole (and other salts therefrom) in >80% yield, using 5-aminotetrazole
and sodium nitrite via the Sandmeyer reaction! It's so simple!
For anyone that might be interested, relevant patent numbers are:
US4552598
US4094879
US4093623
US2066954
GB1519796
The figures given in one patent indicate that silver nitrotetrazole is 4 times as effective at initiating tetryl than lead azide.
Basic lead nitrotetrazole is as effective as lead azide, and the mercury salt is only a little less effective than the silver salt.
I still have some reading to do to get more information as to stability, but everything looks promising! I believe it was in one
of the patents that Rosco posted that I read that tetrazole based explosives were "remarkably stable" (or words to that
effect), but then again, they would say that...
Well, it's late now (even later than it should be because we put our clocks forward today. Or does that mean that it used to be
earlier than it should be? Who cares, the effect is the same. I'll stop talking now), so no experimenting today, but tomorrow I
should have some results. Unfortunately copper sulphate is one of those "boring" chemicals that I never think of as useful, so
I'm not sure if I have any, but I'm sure I can find some somewhere...
Mr Cool March 29th, 2004, 09:39 AM

It seems that there is no OTC copper sulphate around here, so I'm going to have to make some. How mind-numbingly
tedious :(.
Anyway, with luck I should have some CuNT by the end of the day!
(Sorry, my juvenile mind made me use that abbreviation...)

Copper sulphate is available as an algaecide frequently- Ask at a garden store that sells stuff for ornamental ponds.

Copper Sulfate pentahydrate crystals are also sold by the pound
as a root killer for septic tank drainfield lines . You can get it in
plastic bottles at hardware stores .

I looked high and low, far and wide for algaecides, but to no avail. The best I could do was Cheshunt compound to prevent
damping off of seedlings. But it's only 15% copper sulphate, the remainder being ammonium carbonate, and no way was I
paying almost 5 for 250g!
I could have gone out of town to a larger garden centre, but that would have taken longer than making it - which I have now
done...

Years ago, CuSO4.8H2O was used to give a nice blue color to swimming pools. Who knows ? You can give a try...
It used also to be sprayed on grape plants so as to protect them from some insects. But I guess they now use much more
specific and sophisticated mixtures...

Well, nitrotetrazole is potent to say the least!
I've just finished making a little of the acid copper salt. The reaction went without a hitch, and with some lovelly colours due to
the various copper complexes formed at different stages. I can't say what the yield was, for the amounts I used were very
small and impossible for me to measure accurately, but it looked OK. I'll make a larger batch at some point and find the
yield.
It's currently in aqueous solution, on thursday (I'm going on a little trip tomorrow) I'm going to convert it to the sodium salt
and do some experimenting with various compounds... It's my hope that the sodium salt will be suitable as a way to store it,
in strong aqueous solution, so that other salts can be prepared as desired.
And at some point I'll do a few witness plate comparisons and post some pics...

Let me make sure I understand correctly what you have reported .
After a cautious procedure on a small scale you were rewarded at

the end of the day with a small amount of wet CuNT . :D
And being well pleased with that result , you now propose
to enlarge the scale of your endeavor ,
excited at the prospect of getting increased amounts of wet CuNT ;)
Well , there's no doubt that you are on a promising course for a "favorite" !
ROFLMAO !!!!
Mr Cool April 2nd, 2004, 12:26 PM

Further tests will be delayed - I stayed away longer than expected, and am hung over :(.
That's about right Rosco! I'm really gonna have to convert it to the sodium salt... this is a respectable place, you know! I'm
sure there's a rule about not detailing experiences with lots of fresh wet CuNT... and I'm sure it would be illegal to post
pictures of it, it's only a few days old! :eek:
Mr Cool April 3rd, 2004, 06:42 PM

Right, I'm just about to try a larger batch. The method used will be taken from Example 6 in US4093623, scaled down to use
20g of copper sulphate (all that I have left :().
The error in my yield calculation will still be larger than I would like, but at least I'll have enough product to do something
useful with.
Mr Cool April 4th, 2004, 12:57 PM

Right... I'm kinda half way through making it.
I accidentally used 100mL too much water in the nitrite/copper sulphate solution because I couldn't read my writing... the
result was the the solution was too weak, making the CuNT ppte in the more gel-like, rather than crystalline form (read the
patent, it seems stronger solutions make a better product). It's not too bad, but it did make the mixture very thick. This fact,
coupled with the effervescence, resulted in gloopy wet CuNT going everywhere...
Mr Cool April 11th, 2004, 02:56 PM

It's being a real pain in the arse to get dry. I've been recrystalising like mad, not to get it pure, but in an attempt to get it into
a nice crystalline form. I've tried various things, but the best I can do is to get it into a coarse paste, which holds lots of water
between the crystals. So it is still very moist.
Another strange thing is, the crude product was pale blue/green, and gave a pale blue/green solution, and the recrystalised
stuff is sky blue, and gives a sky blue solution :confused:. I'm not sure what change has taken place, but the recrystalised
stuff certainly seems more like what is described in the patents. Have a look at the attached pic - the one on the left is the
crude product, after being washed a few times, in dH2O. On the right is a sample of that crude product, after recrystalisation
and washing, also in dH2O.
There was a small amount of gas evolution during recrystalisation (which was done using a water bath for heating, so was
probably at around 80*C), I'm not sure if it was the product or impurities, but either way there was not enough decomposition
to account for the colour change of the whole batch.
Also, I've been wondering about lead double salts... I've always been wanting a castable primary, or at least a primary which
softens at higher temperatures, in order to make loading easier. Not much pressure would be needed, and it would set into a
nice solid block. The thought came to me of using a lead double salt, in which one anion was that of a "normal" primary
explosive, like azide, nitrotetrazolate etc, and the other was that of an oxidiser, eg chlorate, nitrate, perchlorate. Then this
excess oxygen could be used to oxidise a binder, eg MNN, a nitrotoluene etc.
Just out of interest I worked out what proportions would be needed in order to create a mixture of lead nitrotetrazole chlorate
and mononitronapthalene that was more or less oxygen balanced to CO and H2O. The result was 87.5% Pb(NT)(ClO3) and
12.5% MNN - more or less perfect proportions to give a nicely bound product.
Has anyone here tried this sort of thing? Do you think it would work? I have a suspicion that the binder would take away a lot
of the primary's initiating capability, but I think it would be worth looking into...
Rosco Bodine April 12th, 2004, 03:41 PM

Lead Azide can be used as a filler in melt cast ETN ,
and it is a powerful mixture . There is probably a
better combination of nitroesters which could have
a stiff but gummy consistency upon hardeneing .
Maybe a combination of nitrolactose , ETN , and
a small amount of sorbitan tetranitrate would form
a decent energetic binder . Nitrocellulose or cordite
might be useful as an additive also .
Here's a patent reference for the tetranitrate of sorbitan ( not sorbitol )
GB924239
Mr Cool April 13th, 2004, 11:25 AM

Finally I got it dry. The yield was 30g, around 75%. Not at all bad considering I had that little spillage.
Here's that pic showing the colour change. Also attached is a pic of the dry yield, a saturated solution of the copper salt (from
which it was recrystalised), and a photo of the copper salt in 150mL dH2O mixed with 8g of NaOH in 50mL of dH2O, in order to
prepare the sodium salt. Unfortunately kitchen towels don't work very well for filtering out very fine CuO...
Bert April 20th, 2004, 02:48 AM

Have any of you used one of these constant addition funnels? (http://www.kimble-kontes.com/html/pg-299350.html) They are
hideously expensive, but might be just the thing for a couple of procedures mentioned here. If you've used one, how reliable/
durable are they?
pdb April 20th, 2004, 07:09 AM

I once had one, but I broke it during cleaning... and since I have been using a simple buret with a Teflon tape without
problem. I think the expense is not worth the advantage of fixing the flow rate: do you often leave your apparatus unattented
??!

I have been using a simple buret with a Teflon tape without problem. I think the expense is not worth the advantage of fixing
the flow rate: do you often leave your apparatus unattented ??!
How exactly are you using the combination of Teflon tape and a buret? I have tried Roscoe's idea of nicking the edges of the
stop cock's plug on a standard dropping funnel, it works but the flow rate doesn't stay constant as the level of liquid changes.
(edit: pdb says he meant a Teflon TAP, as in a Teflon valve)
I can't leave such operations unattended. But I'd like to at least be able to
turn my back on them for a couple of minutes!
That aparatus did look very breakable, and hard to clean due to those thin glass equalizing lines. Plus it costs more than my
entire glass inventory put together.
Microtek April 20th, 2004, 02:22 PM
I don't think it is critical to hold the rate of addition constant as long as it doesn't get too high. As drip rate will diminish as the
liquid level drops, I don't think you have a problem.
Rosco Bodine April 21st, 2004, 09:45 AM

I don't think it is critical to hold the rate of addition constant as long as it doesn't get too high.
As drip rate will diminish as the liquid level drops, I don't think you have a problem.
Microtek is correct . It is not really critical for the addition rate to remain
exactly constant , and it is fine to make the initial drip rate adjustment on a
pear shaped addition funnel , and let the addition rate follow its usual
natural decrease as the liquid level in the funnel falls . A tall column
of liquid in a buret would have a significant rate change , but the addition
rate change is not any problem for a pear shaped funnel .
A magnetic stirrer hotplate and addition funnel is not even absolutely

required . The first time I made an azo-clathrate , it was made in a
jelly jar sitting in an inch of hot cooking oil in a small electric cooking
fryer having an adjustable thermostat . The stirrer shaft I used was a
section of an old hollow fiberglass arrow with the three plastic vanes ,
extending the shaft of a C-frame shaded pole fan motor which was
speed controlled by a lamp dimmer . I made a mounting bracket and
adjustable height support rod for the stir motor , from 3/8" water pipe
and a floor flange screwed to the top of a workbench . The additions
were made three or four drops at a time using an eyedropper , but
an old intravaneous solution bag and delivery tube would have saved
labor . Small plastic needle valves which fit aquarium tubing could
also be useful for an improvised addition funnel , using a turkey basting
syringe body as a reservoir , or even a small plastic squeeze bottle
having a dispenser tip .
Proper lab equipment makes things easier for having the right tools
for the job , but expensive equipment is not essential for a resourceful
person handy at improvising . So long as the reaction conditions are
met , the end product is exactly the same .
Bert April 21st, 2004, 12:25 PM

==========================<snip>=====================
an old intravaneous solution bag and delivery tube would have saved
labor .
==========================<snip>=====================
Proper lab equipment makes things easier for having the right tools
for the job , but expensive equipment is not essential for a resourceful
person handy at improvising . So long as the reaction conditions are
met , the end product is exactly the same .
Thanks, I thought of the disposable intravenous drip myself, and have a couple of contacts in the medical field who're going
to grab a sample for me to play with.
Proper equipment is very nice... But a bit pricey, as I've found. A resource of interest to the cash strapped may be Lab X
(http://www.labx.com/) Kind of like eBay, but for lab equipment only. I admit it, I'm a "tool freak". If I know how to use it, I
want to have it available.
Microtek May 9th, 2004, 02:10 PM

Having looked at some of the tetrazole patants, I decided to try out some of the compounds. It seems like a very rich avenue
of experimentation and while I agree with Rosco that the azo-clathrates are sufficient for most practical applications,
practicality has never been my primary concern.
As my lab supplier doesn't sell tetrazoles I decided to try out the route over aminoguanidine which Mr Cool mentioned in the
5-ATZ thread.
So I ordered a few hundred grams of aminoguanidinium bicarbonate:
- 6.45 g aminoguanidinium bicarbonate was suspended in 7 mL H2O and neutralized with 5 mL 30 % HCl ( dropwise addition
although it cooled down rather a lot during addition ).
- pH was checked with universal indicator strips and adjusted to ca pH 4.
- Another 5.3 mL 30 % HCl was added all at once.
- A soln of 3.5 g NaNO2 in 7.5 mL H2O was added from an addition funnel while stirring vigorously and keeping temp at 17-20
C with an ice bath ( no salt ). Addition proceeded smoothly with negligible evolution of NOx ( not visible and only just
detectable by smell ) until the very last drops which gave the evolution of NOx which is typical of nitrite with acid. This likely
signified that all the aminoguanidine had been diazotized.
- Stirring was continued for 20 minutes at 20 C after addition was completed.
- 4.9 mL 25 % ammonia soln was added all at once ( pH was measured at this point and was found to be ca 6-7 ), the flask
was equipped with a condenser and the mix was heated to beginning reflux. It was held there for 2 hours.
- While still hot, pH was adjusted to ca 4 with HCl and ammonia water; ca 1.8 mL 30 % HCl was required.
- Mix was allowed to cool very slowly by turning off the hotplate but letting the flask stay on it. Once it had cooled to room
temp, it was placed in the refridgerator until a temp of 10 C had been reached.
The product crystallized in very well defined plates beginning from ca 40 C.
- Almost all the mother liquor was easily decanted from the dense crystal mass, and 12 mL of H2O was added to remove co-
precipitated chloride.
- Mix was heated to 45 C with stirring and was then allowed to cool to 10 C.
Not all of the product was dissolved in this operation.
- Product was removed by filtration and washed several times in the filter with cool water.
Yield was 4.96 g 5-ATZ*H2O or 99 % theory if 100 % purity is assumed.
I then converted 2.57 g of the 5-ATZ to nitrotetrazole using a virtually identical procedure to the one Mr Cool used. The
reaction went very smoothly, and produced a large amount of pale green product in suspension. It was reasonably easy to
filter most of the mother liquor off, but a lot of liquid did remain trapped. The product exhibits great differences in solubility at
high and low temperature so recrystallization was easy and left a pale but clear blue precipitate.
I believe that the green colour may come from a residue of copper nitrite complex of some kind. The decomposition of this
could possibly be responsible for the fizzing observed when recrystallizing.
Some of the product ( I tested both before and after recrystallisation; there is no difference ) was dissolved in hot, slightly
acidic ( from HNO3 ) water and a soln of AgNO3 was added. Immediately white, amorphous precipitate appeared and was
allowed to settle. It was filtered and washed and allowed to dry.
In the dry state silver nitrotetrazolate ( SNT ) is a very slightly off-white colour. It is responsive to flame from which it
detonates with an even sharper and louder crack than lead azide.
It is somewhat sensitive to impact, a little more so than NG.
A sample of SNT was exposed to direct, strong sunlight for ca. 5 hours. No colour change or change in properties was
observed.
A sample was placed on my hotplate which was turned full on ( it doesn't get so hot; it's a converted iron for ironing shirts etc.
A thermometer placed on the surface shows a temp of 140 C ) and left for 20 minutes.
This caused the colour to darken somewhat and there may have been a slight weight loss, but there was no reduction in
brisance of the sample.
All in all, I'd say that nitrotetrazolates are very promising primaries due to the easy of manufacture and the chemical stability
due to NTZ being a very strong acid ( pKa = -0.82 , comparable to nitric acid ) with a low volatility unlike HN3. So no need to
worry about toxic gas...
Mr Cool May 18th, 2004, 09:32 AM

Good work!
I like the sound of your method, avoiding the sodium salt. It's ridiculously annoying trying to recrystalise it. You have to chill
the solution to get crystal formation, and without the ability to vacuum filter, most of the crystals dissolve in the liquid which
they held between them as they warm up.
IIRC I left all of the sodium salt dissolved in about 20mL of water...
Yes, NTZ is a very strong acid - it's basically just one huge pi system made up of mainly very electronegative atoms, so the
charge can be favourably delocalised all over the place.
Interestingly, the free acid has apparently been known to detonate spontaneously (at around 8.8 km/sec!).
Rosco Bodine May 18th, 2004, 11:49 AM

That is an interesting route to tetrazoles which has adaptability
to use of OTC starting materials , though it would involve several
synthetic steps from urea as the starting material . The tetracene
intermediate has interest itself , along with its perchlorate and
heavy metal salts .
Urea heated with silica gel leads to cyanamide . GB718934

Calcium cyanurate ( lime plus pool chlorine stabilizer )
on heating also leads to cyanamide . US3173755
Cyanamide reacted with hydrazine sulphate ( from urea plus pool chlorinator )
produces aminoguanidine which can be diazotized with
sodium nitrite ( meat preservative ) to tetracene . GB308179
For someone determined to use the most basic starting materials ,

such a route to tetracene and tetrazoles is workable without requiring
any ordered chemicals .

I have recently prepared the cobalt salt of NTZ, just to see what that was like.
A small amount of NaNT was dissolved in water and added to a concentrated soln of CoCl2 in water. I found that concentrated
solutions are necessary to get the CoNT to precipitate fast; dilute solns only give precipitate after some time.
The precipitate was ridiculously fine and took hours to settle. None of my lab grade filter papers stood a chance of filtering it
out, so I had to construct a centrifuge to help me remove the NaCl byproduct and then dry the product directly.
CoNT is quite similar to SNT but slightly more reddish in colour. It is somewhat less sensitive to impact than SNT but about as
responsive to flame. I haven't done any initiation efficiency tests yet.
Rosco Bodine May 18th, 2004, 06:25 PM

Might be worthwhile to look at the lead , cadmium , and barium
salts too .
Microtek May 19th, 2004, 03:09 AM

From reading Herz's old patent, it seems that the basic lead salt of NTZ is rather less attractive than the other heavy metal
salts.
It seems to suffer from relatively high solubility and is less powerful than the silver salt. Of course, there may be sensitivity
advantages but considering that CoNT is described as "practically insoluble" and PbNT*Pb(OH)2 as "difficultly soluble" and that
I did have some of the CoNT redissolve when washing, it's a bit down my list at the moment.
I'll be trying the mercury salt though....
Rosco Bodine May 19th, 2004, 08:19 AM

The silver salt is probably the best of the bunch .
It is especially nice that the silver NTZ is not photosensitive .
That resolves a real gripe that applies with fulminate and
azide compounds of silver , and many other silver salts as well .
It would seem that if you are going to the expense of using
a silver compound as an initiator , that silver NTZ is a far
more justified use of silver than the alternatives .
Of the rest , nickel NTZ may be good too . For the

purpose of causing crystal modifications which
could have benefits , it may be possible to make
a mixed crystal or double salt of the silver and nickel
compounds . Other combinations of the NTZ salts
with each other , and double salts with other compounds
like styphnates could produce interesting materials .
Possibly , even a series of clathrates could arise ,
having NTZ internal components analogous to the azide
based clathrates . The performance of any such materials
would likely be very high in comparison with the better known
and more usual initiators .
It seems curious that there isn't much more published about the
NTZ based primary explosives , since the little that is published
indicates that the NTZ based primaries would likely offer
the highest performance and also have the stability required
for practical use . Economics alone is perhaps the reason
why mass production favors azide and lead based materials
for common articles of manufacture , and limits the use
of the NTZ compositions to "special" applications , probably
for mostly high end military ordnance where the economics
are not an issue .

I agree that it seems odd that this class of compounds is apparantly not widely used, especially considering the great chemical
stability ( and the photostability of the silver salt; that was the property I was most anxious about ).
However, apart from the economy of lead versus silver, there is also the thermal stability where lead azide outperforms SNT
quite soundly.
Rosco Bodine May 30th, 2004, 08:17 PM

There is another compound which is worth mentioning
in connection with the matter of "exotic" primaries ,
and it is another one of the materials that result from
chemistry involving cyanamide derivatives .
Triaminoguanidine forms a series of stable explosive salts .

The perchlorate is reportedly fuse sensitive .
US2929699
There are many other patents which describe the

manufacture of the triaminoguanidine itself .
Rosco Bodine September 30th, 2004, 09:53 PM

This thread is one where some interesting discussion was lost
when the forum went down with data loss . I remember some
of the earlier discussion which was most interesting related to a couple
of compounds which are lead double salts involving tetrazole variants
and styphnic acid , which may be superior initiators to lead azide .
PATR vol. 9 page T-121 Lead Diazoaminotetrazolate Styphnate is an

interesting compound .
US2064817 supplies useful information for the precursor to this and related cpds.
US2090745 describes the simple Lead Diazoaminotetrazolate salt
US3310569 Crystalline Double Salt Pb Styphnate and Pb Nitroaminotetrazole

GB1069440 British patent same subject
meselfs September 30th, 2004, 11:08 PM

Very interesting...
Tetrazoles in general have a pretty high heat of formation, so it's no wonder these salts are pretty effective.
Rosco Bodine October 1st, 2004, 08:42 PM
Another part of the missing discussion mentioned heavy metal salts of tetracene .
GB412460 Gives details of synthesis
Tetracene is an intermediate in the synthesis of 5-ATZ described by Microtek .
PATR states that tetracene decomposes slowly to 5-ATZ after 3 days at 90 C .
US4024818 Describes a detonating composition useful in ordnance , which is

based upon mercuric-5-nitrotetrazole . The composition is sufficently
powerful that it functions as a single element charge with comparable
output but simplified manufacture over compound detonators having
plural element firing trains .
The_Duke December 29th, 2004, 05:19 AM

Well I have always stood true and faithful to either MF or HMTD. I like the qualities of both, I really like the fact that HMTD has
a VoD of around 6000m/sec. But lately there has been much discussion about DPPP. I think that I might have to try the
synthesis for myself first though. Who knows I might find a new favorite primary. :D
Mr.ANFO December 31st, 2004, 03:03 AM

Yes, I think you will find it very fun to make. DPPP is a yellow-green coloured material derived from Phorone HCl ( made via
Acetone and HCl 35-40%)

Is it possible to get 3-nitroaniline from p-nitroanilin?
Because I have acces to some p-nitroailine but not to 3-nitroaniline.
Mr Cool January 6th, 2005, 06:09 PM

I'd say the product from p-nitro would be less stable than that from m-nitro, since that nitro group will induce a positive charge
on the carbon to which the (positive) diazo group is attached...
It *is* possible to convert one to the other, but it would be no easier than starting with something else. Diazotise, replace the
diazo group with a chlorine, reduce to nitrobenzene with copper powder in aqueous ethanol, nitrate to dinitrobenzene, reduce
one nitro group with a polysulphide, and there is your 3-nitroaniline. Hardly worth it, IMHO.

OK, I see, it's too difficult :(
Is there another use for p-nitroaniline?

Well yes! You can nitrate it further to get trinitroaniline (TNA) and even tetranitroaniline (TetNA). Both are powerful explosives,
TetNA can be reacted further, with sodium azide, to get aminodinitrobenzofuroxan, which is powerful, stable and not very
sensitive (whereas TetNA is powerful, but chemically reactive/unstable and quite sensitive since it has a nitro in the "wrong
place"). TNA is weakly basic because of the amine, and so should form nitrates, perchlorates, picrates etc which should also be
useful. And it can be converted to picryl chloride, which is a useful intermediate for all sorts of things...
p-NA is nice stuff to have around!

Thanx!
Is there accurately described way to convert the p-nitroaniline in 3-nitroaniline?
Is there a good primary explosive made of the p-nitroaniline?

Is there a powerful primary explosive, which is insensitiv to flame and friction but sensitiv to flame?
What's about lead2,4,6-trinitro-3-oxybenzoate (http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/oxybenzoate.html)? Is it
powerful?
Because it's easy to prepare and the chemicals are very easy avaible.
Rosco Bodine January 8th, 2005, 07:07 PM

US3284255
Lead Azide and Barium Styphnate Explosive Initiator Composition

insensitive to impact , but sensitive to flame :D
Maybe this is what you mean ?
Guerilla January 8th, 2005, 08:04 PM

lead2,4,6-trinitro-3-oxybenzoate (http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/oxybenzoate.html)? Is it powerful?
Because it's easy to prepare and the chemicals are very easy avaible.
Actually the other main source material in that synth should be trinitro oxybenzoic acid instead of the Na-benzoate (which was
affirmed in the old thread about this), making it a less attractive choice for that matter.

This sounds very interesting for me:
"Silver styphnate: This compound is used as an alternative to lead styphnate in primer compounds. It is reported as being
superior in performance and stability to lead styphnate, less toxic, but more expensive. It may be prepared by mixing a
solution of styphnic acid in ethyl alcohol and adding a small quantity of sodium carbonate. The solution is then acidified with
glacial acetic acid and brought to a boil. Add a small quantity of aqueous silver nitrate with stirring to complete the reaction.
Allow the solution to cool to room temperature; crystals of silver styphnate should have precipitated. Filter to collect the
crystals, wash them with water to remove soluble impurities, and allow to dry."
Has anyone more informations (exactly explosive features, lead-block-expansion, etc.) about silver styphnate?
A great mxture is lead methyldiisonitrosamine salt (PbMEDNA) and lead styphnate (70:30). For example only 0.09g are
needed to initiate tetryl (source: US Patent: US1625966, http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?
CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=USUS1625966&ID=US+++US1625966A1+I+).
This has near the double power of lead azide, can be lighted by fuse and is less sensitiv/unstable!
Lead MEDNA" can be easily prepared by bubbling NO, N2O, NO2, etc. through a solution of sodium ethoxide in ethanol and
mixing/shaking the solution of the precipated "sodium MEDNA" with a solouble lead salt. "Lead MEDNA" will be precipated:
See also:
http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/MEDNA.html
"Lead MEDNA
The lead salt of MEDNA can be precipitated by adding a lead salt solution, such as lead acetate, lead chlorate, lead
perchlorate, or lead nitrate, to a solution of sodium MEDNA. This explosive detonates at 250 C. It can be mixed with lead
picrate or lead styphnate for use in detonators."
"Sodium MEDNA
Very slowly add 13.8 g of sodium metal in small portions to 300 mL of anhydrous ethyl alcohol and cool to 6 C under nitrogen
(If you have some sodium ethoxide handy that would do the trick since that is what this reaction makes, it is also safer). 38.4
g of acetone is added slowly with vigerous stirring as nitric oxide is passed in at 320 mL per minute for 140 minutes. A fine
yellow solid should form and is collected on a Buchner funnel, then the damp solid is dissolved in 130 mL of water, made
slightly acidic with glacial acetic acid, and heated on a steam bath until gassing ceases to come from the solution. The mixture
is poured into 400 mL of ice cold ethyl alcohol to give 25.3 g of a brown solid which is recrystallized twice from a 2:1 ratio of
ethyl alcohol and water to give a white solid which decomposes without melting at 225-260 C."
Has anyone tried this?

I have heard of military detonators used lead mononitroresorcinol.
Maybe it was in the http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2664 book. How can I prepare the mononitro?
What's about lead dinitroresorcinol? Has anyone information about this stuff?
Because, dintro resorcinol is much more easily to prepare than the trinitro.
Bert January 12th, 2005, 07:17 PM

I have heard of military detonators used lead mononitroresorcinol
I have heard of it used in percussion primers, not in detonators.
Microtek January 14th, 2005, 05:31 AM

The_Rsert: Trinitroresorcinol is by no means difficult to prepare if you have access to resorcinol and ordinary nitric/sulfuric
acids. In fact, resorcinol is so reactive towards nitration that you have to be careful and use dilute acids to not get a runaway. I
believe I have already posted the details of the method I used.
The_Rsert January 14th, 2005, 08:58 AM

I have pure resorcinol but I don't know why but I had some misfires with the synth. Next time I will try to make the dinitro
resorcinol first.
I followed the german synthesis instructions of http://lambdasyn.science-hosting.de/synfiles/styphninsaeure.htm exactly. I will

post some more pics of my extremly fine blood-red product, which is definitly not styphnic acid.

That synthesis seems unnecessaryly complex, but even so, how do you know it is definately not styphnic acid ? The colour
may be misleading as trace amounts of impurities may colour the product various shades of red. Mine is a kind of dusty brick-
red powder. It is very insoluble in water, but can be dissolved as Mg-styphnate by adding MgCO3. This solution is blood red.
At any rate, here is the method that I used for making styphnic acid:
- 1 g resorcinol is dissolved in 1 mL warm water.
- 7 g HNO3, 62% is added dropwise with stirring while keeping temp between 35 and 40 C.
- This soln is added dropwise to 20 g H2SO4, 96 % while stirring and keeping temp below 50 C.
- When addition is complete, the mix is stirred for another 30 min without heating or cooling.
- Mix is then poured over about 100 g crushed ice to precipitate the product which is then washed carefully with cold water.
Don't try to neutralize it; it is an acid after all.
Thanks for the synthesis instructions.
I can say that it wasn't styphnic acid, because the product does not dissolve very good in MgCaO3 solution. The yield of my
red product was also very low.
I used 70%+ nitric, which contains about 5% free NO2. Is it possible that the NO2 maybe oxidise the styphninc aicd?
However, I will try you method and I will try Megalomania's method with dintro resorcinol. Maybe I will test the explosive
features of the lead- dinitroresorcinat.
I found some again a interesting explosive:

On page 272 in the German "Meyer - Explosivstoffe" e-book (download here (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/
viewthread.php?tid=2664)) they are talking about strontium diazodinitroresorcinate as a new good alternativ primary explosive
in replacement of DDNP. And they said that it's sometimes mixed with zink peroxide and tetracene to improve it's features.
That's anything.
I think, it should be possible to make this at home if you own the the needet chemicals.
Is copper styphnate a stable salt?

How can I diazotise/diazotate (I don't know the right English word for it!) styphnic acid or dinitrophenol?
THX!

You can't. There has to be an amino group on the ring for the nitrous acid to react with. You can reduce one of the nitro
groups with sulfide to get the amino group and I guess that was what you meant in the first place right ?
Anyway, I would suggest you look at the synthesis of DDNP from picric acid and then just adapt it to the slightly different mol
weight of your substrate ( styphnic acid or DNP ).
The_Rsert January 20th, 2005, 10:42 AM

Thanks Mirotek, I've not thought that it's so easy.
I will try it. At the moment, I have no sulfides but I will buy -or produce some soon if possible.
A simple "newbie" question:

Is the formula of DNR(dinitro resorcinate) C6H3N2O6?
If so, the mol weight is 199.0996 g/mol, right?
Thx!

To the ones (if any, besides Microtek) possibly interested in DPNA, I have improved the preparation process in order to obtain
a more free-flowing product, with a higher yield. In fact, it's still far from recrystallized Silver Azide for instance, but much
better than my very first DPNA crops. This is achieved by concentrating the reaction solution and using powered NaNO2.
- 0.62 ml HClO4 (70%, d 1.67) and 1.60 ml HCl (36%, d 1.18-1.19) are mixed together in 15 ml H2O at room temperature in
a small Beaker
- 1 g 3-nitroaniline is introduced with stirring, and dissolution is achieved in a few minutes
- the solution is freezed until ice begins to form
- 0.53 g crystallized NaNO2 are then added at once, under strong strirring (magnetic stirrer)
- precipitation occurs almost immediatly and is complete in a minute
- once filtered, washed with water and dried, the DPNA obtained amounts 1.20 g, i.e. 66% of theorical yield (55% with the
previous procedure).
Microscopic obsevation shows crystals are both smaller and more regular in shape and size. Macroscopic handling exhibits an
increased flowing capacity and a better density for the same pressure applied.
2,4,6-TNP February 9th, 2005, 03:17 AM

Dear Rosco Bodine,
I am very interested in US3431156. It seems to me to be as

Mr. Anonymous says "a gold mine of information". The more I study US3431156 and the improvements to the 4/12 variety,
the more there are two primaries that
stand out most to me. Those are [4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Acetate--Lead Azide)-12 Lead Azide] example 2 and [4 (Basic
Lead Picrate-Lead Nitrate--Lead Azide)-12 Lead Azide] example 5 of US3431156.
Notice how in the patent(and this may be a typo) that for the properties of
examples 1-16 it uses language like "sensitive, powerful, primary explosive"
and "sensitive, very powerful, primary explosive"! The latter being used to describe example 2 and 5, which I am the most
interested in because
Lead Acetate and Lead Nitrate are much more accesable than the other
lead compounds used in the patent.
What I want to know is, have you found a clear overall advantage of the Lead acetate over the lead nitrate variant, or vice
versa?
What I mean is, you said you have stored some of these examples over a period of time. Was there any difference in stabilty
between example 2 and example 5?
Also on a matter of safety, what has been your experiance and feeling about the sensitivity and general handling of these
compounds including pressing?
Also when jumping up to the 4/12s of these same examples was there any cleary noticeable changes in properties than the
slight increase in overall power? Like changes in flame sensitivity or friction?
Thank you for your response!

Dear Rosco,
I would wait for your reply before posting again, but I don't want to lose my train of thought. It has been my purpose hear at
the forum and in my own studies to make for myself a list of the most useful secondary explosives and firing trains for them.
What I have come up with thus far is eight secondaries that are most appealing to me and that I percieve are the most
powerful, easily made, stable, cheap, with unsuspicous precursors and so on. Here it is a list in alphabetical order:
-AN; Ammonium Nitrate

-ETN; Erythritol Tetranitrate
-HMX; Octogen
-MHN; Mannitol Hexanitrate
-PETN; Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate
-RDX; Cyclonite
-TNP; Picric Acid
-TNT; Trinitrotoluene
You will probably see that my list consists of the most common military and comercially used. My purpose was also to make a
list of the very best primaries that I believe are the best; it is short:
-[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Acetate--Lead Azide)-12 Lead Azide] of the patent
-[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Nitrate--Lead Azide)-12 Lead Azide] also of the patent
Also, because I beleived the clathrates may not take the spit from a fuse readily or the heat from an electric fuse I tried to
make a list of the best (ignition compounds and mixtures) I could find that were readily available to me. Here is that list:
-Basic Lead Picrate

-Black Powder
-Estes Model Rocket Powder( After being finely powdered)
In the firing trains I have considered using examples 2 and 5 of the patent I believe of the eight secondaries listed:
PETN
ETN
RDX
TNP
MHN
Would be the most suitable as base charges in a compound detonator and:
PETN
RDX
HMX
ETN
TNP
TNT
AN
MHN
would be the most suitable for use as main charges in my theoretical firing trains
It is not my hope, Rosco, that you will spoon feed me, but I would like to know what do you consider to be an economical yet
undoubtedly reliable amount in milligrams of example 2 and 5 of the patent to initiate my listed base charges.
Again we have spoken before of column diameters ranging from 4-10mm what is the best?
I was hoping that as I begin to make these clathrates that you could give me some advice on some experiments to do to get
a feel for their initaitory power using some of the base chages I have listed.
I would also like to hear from you about ignition charges used in blasting caps. The goal I have set for myself is to come up
with a compound detonator with exact amounts of each component and method for there loading, so that I can end up with
reliable detonators that are composed of substances that will be stable for basically my life time so they can be stored and
used any time with unquestionable reliability. Do you think there is any need for an ignition charge when using the examples 2
and 5? If so would Basic Lead Picrate on it's own or in a mixture fit the bill for super storage stability and flame sensitivity or
have you come across some other ignition compounds that I should consider? What I mean by ignition compounds is those
compounds used to help ignite the 4/11 or 4/12 clathrates used in these firing trains
Thank you again for your responses.
P.S. Though my posts seemed aimed exclusivly at Rosco Bodine, I encourage all others with there helpful responses as well.
Thanks

You seem to be wishing to redo the world, or at least this forum...
A few quick comments after a quick reading:

- add nitromethane NM to your list of secondaries
- delete TNT and Octogen, both being too costly to prepare (at least, Octogen would be worthwhile as a sample, given its
outstanding VoD)
- Picric Acid is nowaday used as a precusor for primaries (clathrates...) and almost no more as a main charge
- you desire to focus on clathrates make sense, given all the flavours you can prepare to suit your precise needs, and thus
justifies you discarding other valuable primaries
- yes, clathrates definitively require ignition charge: add Lead Trinitroresorcinate to your list of ignition compounds (best to use
a lead salt if intented to load in contact with a clathrate, for safety and long-term storage)
- 4, 5...10mm are all suitable; you choice will likely be driven by the type of casing you will find available
- instead of searching compounds "stable for your life-time" (another Holy Grail...), you should make yours the golden rule of
destroying your primaries and devices containing some every -say, one or two years. This will help your life-time last longer.

Dear Rosco,
You will probably see that my list consists of the most common military and comercially used.
HMX is sort of a reach . I would add styphnic acid to the list .
My purpose was also to make a list of the very best primaries that I believe are the best; it is short:
-[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Acetate--Lead Azide)-12 Lead Azide] of the patent
-[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Nitrate--Lead Azide)-12 Lead Azide] also of the patent
It is not my hope, Rosco, that you will spoon feed me, but I would like to know what do you consider to be an economical yet
undoubtedly reliable amount in milligrams of example 2 and 5 of the patent to initiate my listed base charges. Again we have
spoken before of column diameters ranging from 4-10mm what is the best?
The amount of initiator chosen to be used will vary depending on the usual factors that are to be considered for the specific
combination of materials in a specific device , and what your own tests show are threshold amounts can generally be at least
doubled for reliable functioning , and much more than doubled if you like .
I tend to design using wide margins to assure reliability . 9.5 mm ( 3/8 " ) is a charge column diameter which I favor for
detonators . Components are easier to work with at that dimension for improvised devices , and the performance is enhanced
over smaller diameter devices .
I was hoping that as I begin to make these clathrates that you could give me some advice on some experiments to do to get
a feel for their initaitory power using some of the base chages I have listed.
I haven't done extensive tests myself using these materials , sufficient to even consume the original samples . Basically all
that I have done is a few tests sufficient for making the observation that they are reliable , good quality initiators which have
desirable chemical and physical properties, and are not difficult nor expensive to make .
I would also like to hear from you about ignition charges used in blasting caps. The goal I have set for myself is to come up
with a compound detonator with exact amounts of each component and method for there loading, so that I can end up with
reliable detonators that are composed of substances that will be stable for basically my life time so they can be stored and
used any time with unquestionable reliability. Do you think there is any need for an ignition charge when using the examples 2
and 5? If so would Basic Lead Picrate on it's own
or in a mixture fit the bill for super storage stability and flame sensitivity or have you come across some other ignition
compounds that I should consider? What I mean by ignition compounds is those compounds used to help ignite the 4/11 or
4/12 clathrates used in these firing trains
I prefer to use a low order detonating flash igniter charge like basic lead picrate or the two others that I have mentioned , for
the " hot start " it assures for the rest of the components in tandem . I believe there is also the benefit of some physical
compression of the adjacent materials by the rising pressure from the
low order detonation of the flash igniter , which in effect "completes" the press loading of the remaining charge in situ , briefly
before it is subjected to the impulse from the more rapidly detonating initiator charge . The initiator and base charge gets
"squeezed" tightly by a relatively gentle pressure wave which physically compresses it , and then gets hit by the main
detonation wave as the main intitator goes high order . That's my theory anyway . So high pressloading pressures are not
required for loading a serviceable detonator , especially if a flash igniter charge is the first fire . Firmly loaded components are
sufficient because the firing sequence itself presses the charge in the instant before it is detonated . It is a good practice to
load the detonator charge in stepwise portions of one quarter to one half gram portions , firmly compressing each portion until
the entire charge is loaded . Using this strategy of stepwise loading , and dealing with materials where the physical form is that
of relatively fine granulation but " gritty " crystals , serviceable detonators can be made at the 9.5 mm column diameter by
applying only 20 to 30 pounds of pin pressure to the
loading ram . Very lightly constructed presses and loading fixtures of an easily improvised nature may be used to achieve such
minimum loading pressures . Even something as simple as one of the large size strap frame caulking gun type of loading
press scenario can be used for increased safety , to achieve the
low pin pressure which actually puts these improvised detonators in the class which is often called " hand pressed " and
possible to do absolutely manually , although that is not the preferred method for safety concerns , when a simple light duty
loading fixture is so easily built for the task . A blast shield for a caulking gun type press can be as simple as a five gallon
metal bucket with a hole cut in the lid , or an empty five gallon propane bottle with a hole cut in the top and if desired an
access hatch cut from a section in the side .
If you want the simplest long term storage stable devices , then it seems to me the picric acid based detonator would fit that
criteria . I have described the concept before and named the components where the base charge
is picric acid , and every other component in the firing train is also a picric acid derivative . It may have been in the " most
versatile explosive " thread . In different threads I think nearly all of this stuff has been covered before .
Pasted below is the relevant quote from the earlier thread I mentioned above :
Picric Acid is undoubtedly the most versatile explosive .

Picric Acid is a fine high explosive by itself , and it is
the precursor for superior igniter and initiating explosives
that are also useful elements of a practical firing train .
Averaging all the desirable qualities and awarding the prize
to one candidate compound for overall usefulness , my vote
goes unequivocally to trinitrophenol . See references below .
Igniters :
US2175249 See example 2 for one of the best "first fire"

low order detonating flash igniters , a superbly useful
and easily made compound .
US3293091 See example 4 for a similarly useful different compound .
US1478429 See example 1 for the most simple and third variant which is the
parent compound for the two above compounds .
Initiators :
US3431156 Basic lead picrate / lead azide clathrates "azo-clathrate" primaries

These are worth the effort too .
Anyway , picric acid is a first class base charge for a detonator and if the detonator is properly designed it will indeed initiate
anything you like and do a thoroughly good job . Sure you need more of picric acid than PETN , and it takes more intitiator to
get the picric acid going , but once the TNP is doing its business of high order detonation , it is no slouch at all even in gram
quantities , about delivering a brisant , metal shattering impulse and detonation wave of high energy and velocity . Among the
common explosives that are also cheap and OTC , picric acid is a proven good performer . In a pinch it can even be detonated
completely by 1.75 grams of TCAP in a " hand pressed " plastic bodied detonator capsule if the TCAP is given a " hot start "
with a quarter gram ball of AP putty as the " first fire " . That was discovered recently by me for the 9.5 mm column diameter ,
in a non-reenforced detonator where the initiator was simply lightly pressed on top a 1.5 gram picric acid base charge ,
everything loaded into a 5 ml polypropylene culture tube . I had known before that in a strongly confined reenforced detonator
that AP would initiate picric acid but it was a new development to secure a complete detonation of picric acid initiated by AP in
the more simple non-reenforced detonator configuration . If ordinary AP will intitiate picric acid in a non-reenforced detonator ,
well then you can be assured that an azo-clathrate initiator will also do the job . One of the considerations for long term
storage devices is the physical integrity of the pressed charge . Certain binders in trace amounts would likely be of benefit for
maintaining the agglomeration of the pressed components , so that during many thousands of cycles of temperature changes
, the expansion and contraction of the material doesn't result in a crumbling and density lowering of the pressed materials ,
but that they remain stable at the density they were originally pressed in the device .
Rosco Bodine February 23rd, 2005, 07:38 PM

I use diazoperchlorat-3-nitroanilin associated with PETN for making detos. It's a cheap, easy-to-prepare primary explosive,
with a remarkable initiation power, greater than fulminates and metal azides. However, it has not found its way in industry
because it doesn't pour easily. Although it is not a problem for my detos, I would like to explore ways to obtain a cristallized
size-controlled product. I never heard of any solvent, but my idea is to prepare it in another medium than water, maybye in
ethanol.
Does anyone know and use this compound ? Would be delighted to exchange experience about it.
To revisit the beginning of this thread the compound being described and a
method for its synthesis in crystalline form is described in COPAE , page 442 .
The structural formula in COPAE incorrectly shows the nitro at the #2 position ,
which would be the derivative of ortho or 2-nitroaniline . But it is clear from
the verbal description of the synthesis starting from m-nitroaniline ( which is
3-nitroaniline ) that the nitro group for the diagram should be shown on the
#3 position .
Anyway the compound pdb describes at the beginning of the thread is the same
compound . Originally the compound is described by the Von Herz patent .
( German )
DE258679

Dear Rosco,
Thank you for your reply; I found the patents you listed very interesting
and helpful. I was especially interested in US2175249. As a result of my
studies and pursuit of a storage stable, and powerful coumpound detonator
I took your advice and came up with the following system. I have not listed
the amounts that are optimal, because I'm still working that out. However I am satisfied with the experiments I have done
that the ignition charge has caused
the full ignition and resulting detonation of the lead nitrate based azo-clathrate ten out of ten times using an equal weight of
each.
I chose barium chromate as an oxidiser because it is storage stable and non-
hygroscopic. It is also insoluable in water. As are all the components of the system except of course the Picric Acid which is no
real problem in a hermetically sealed aluminum housing. I just thought that the ignition charge may be exposed to moisture
over time since it is in contact with the fuse or electric match wich may have small pockets between it and the aluminum
housing. So anyway here is the system:
Ignition Charge:
A finely amalgamated ignition charge consisting of:
70% Lead Nitrato-Bis Basic Lead Picrate of US2175249

15% Finely Powdered Aluminum
15% Barium Chromate
Initiating Charge:
An unequivocal initiating charge consisting of:
-[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Nitrate--Lead Azide)-11 Lead Azide] of US3431156
Base Charge:
A base charge consisting of:
High Purity Picric Acid
I found that to me all these compounds are very cheap in the quantity they are used and very simple to make.
I was wondering, Rosco, did you make the lead nitrate azo-clathrate as well
as the lead acetate azo-clathrate. I was just wondering. If so, did you find a difference in storage stability or crystal size. I've
done the lead nitrate azo-clathrate and I'm impressed, I just want to know if the lead acetate azo-clathrate is worth the effort
as well? If the lead acetate azo-clathrate is good I was thinking about trying a modification of example 2 of US2175249 by
substituting lead acetate instead of lead nitrate to form an ignition charge.
Thanks again!
Boomer February 24th, 2005, 10:53 AM

Rosco wrote:
"I believe there is ... some physical compression of the adjacent materials by the rising pressure from the low order
detonation of the flash igniter, which in effect "completes" the press loading of the remaining charge in situ.... The initiator
and base charge gets "squeezed" tightly by a relatively gentle pressure wave ..... So high pressloading pressures are not
required for loading .... serviceable detonators can be made at the 9.5 mm column diameter by applying only 20 to 30 pounds
of pin pressure to the
loading ram."
I did not keep up with reading so I am late, but anyway...

I strongly doubt that the "compression" takes place the way you think. Even a low order detonation is supersonic by definition.
It propagates so fast, the single crystals are consumed before they are pushed / compacted into the lower crystal layers.
I compared hand-pressed caps with vice-pressed caps, and the difference was amazing (there is a pic here somewhere)
though the loading was identical.
To illustrate what I mean: fill a pipe with a base charge, pressing just enough to keep it together, but leave the bottom open.
Initiate it at the top. If there was any compression prior to detonation, some material should be pushed out the bottom, which
is never the case.
There is one type of cap where the effect you describe takes place though: A strong pipe with MHN as a base charge, followed
by flash (or another fast burning mix). Here the MHN is detonated by the compression from the deflagrating mix. You can use
less flash if you add sand or glass to the MHN, so additional friction is generated during compression. It is not the heat that
starts the MHN, as they do not work if the pipe is left open at one end.

Boomer : I have done many experiments with charges pressed
across a wide range of intensity , even up to the deformation limits
of the capsules , even for double walled capsules held in loading dies
and loaded at several thousands of psi . And I * know * from the
observed effects that at the larger diameters such as 9.5 mm that
" self - compression " does indeed occur , by whatever mechanism
and whatever theory applies . There is sometimes even an evidence
of a reflected wave detonation front which meets in the middle of the
length of the longer columns of a multigram base charge , signifying
that a sympathetic detonation was initiated at the bottom end of the
charge column and travelled upwards to meet the direct detonation wave
at a point maybe two thirds the distance down from the point of direct
initiation of the column . How that is explainable is another mystery
which I cannot explain except in terms of a physical movement of the
charge itself , as if it were a bullet fired inside a sand filled gun barrel .
Probably there is a more complicated explanation for the
mechanical effects I have observed , and the way I have explained it
may not be precisely technically correct , or an oversimplification to
account for the self-compression . It is something I see on witness
plates where a low order detonation produces a deep dent without
puncturing the sheet metal , even though the detonation wave was
supersonic , the physical movement of the target material is already
like a surfboard set in motion by a subsonic wave , before the supersonic
component comes speeding through . The inertia of the lower third
of the column of base charge crystals may be acting as an anvil or
sandbag , and be wedged laterally in the capsule by horizontal expansion
to act as a " false bottom " and create a " hot spot " for the detonation
as opposed to being evidence of a reflected wave . Whatever is the
correct explanation for such effects , I am not certain , perhaps a
combination of factors is involved . One factor I can see applies is
the crystal form and loose density of the charge material itself . The
benefit of a highly compressed charge in advance of any firing would
be much more of a requirement and make a much greater difference
in performance for a low density and fluffy powdered charge material .
But for certain gritty aggregates of charge material , there isn't so much
of a density increase to be obtained by highly pressed loadings .
In spite of your doubts , I can't think of a simpler explanation for the

effects I have observed . Some very high speed photography would
be needed to settle the question definitively .

Dear Rosco,
Thank you for your reply; I found the patents you listed very interesting
and helpful. I was especially interested in US2175249. As a result of my
studies and pursuit of a storage stable, and powerful coumpound detonator
I took your advice and came up with the following system. I have not listed
the amounts that are optimal, because I'm still working that out. However I am satisfied
with the experiments I have done that the ignition charge has caused
the full ignition and resulting detonation of the lead nitrate based azo-clathrate ten out of ten times
using an equal weight of each.
What weights of charges and what column diameter are you using and what sort of capsule and pressing scheme ?
I chose barium chromate as an oxidiser because it is storage stable and non-hygroscopic. It is also insoluable in water. As are
all the components of the system except of course the Picric Acid which is no real problem in a hermetically sealed aluminum
housing. I just thought that the ignition charge
may be exposed to moisture over time since it is in contact with the fuse or electric match wich may have small pockets
between it and the aluminum housing. So anyway here is the system:
Ignition Charge:
A finely amalgamated ignition charge consisting of:
70% Lead Nitrato-Bis Basic Lead Picrate of US2175249

15% Finely Powdered Aluminum
15% Barium Chromate
Initiating Charge:
An unequivocal initiating charge consisting of:
-[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Nitrate--Lead Azide)-11 Lead Azide] of US3431156
Base Charge:
A base charge consisting of:
High Purity Picric Acid
I found that to me all these compounds are very cheap in the quantity they are used and very simple to make.
I was wondering, Rosco, did you make the lead nitrate azo-clathrate as well
as the lead acetate azo-clathrate. I was just wondering. If so, did you find a difference in storage stability or crystal size.
I've done the lead nitrate azo-clathrate and I'm impressed, I just want to know if the lead acetate azo-clathrate
is worth the effort as well? If the lead acetate azo-clathrate is good I was thinking about trying
a modification of example 2 of US2175249 by substituting lead acetate instead of lead nitrate to form an ignition charge.
Thanks again!The compound I liked best was the 4/12 azo-clathrate ,

[ 4 ( basic lead picrate / lead nitrate / lead azide ) 12 ( lead azide ) ] . This
had a better density and power than the acetate variant , and is an improvement
over the 4/11 azo-clathrate of the patent . You don't want an azo-clathrate
for the igniter . It would not provide the benefit of the low order detonating
flash igniter and could prematurely shatter the upper portion of the capsule .
The barium chromate and aluminum are not really needed with
the lead nitrato-bis basic picrate . They probably do little to
enhance the initiation , since that particular igniter burns very hot
by itself and quickly goes to low order detonation with a dual
effect of both thermal shock and percussion which is more than
sufficient in either effect alone to cause the azo-clathrate to
initiate at high order , without ever actually being ignited first ,
which it could do very nicely too , if for some reason the first fire
was sluggish . There is a lot of redundancy in the first two elements
of such a firing train , which insures the reliability by simultaneously
providing three valid paths to detonation , any one of which can get
the job done .
Generally what goes into one of Rosco's #20 special engineers magnum compound detonators ,
is 2.5 grams of picric acid pressed firmly in .5 gram increments and topped with 1.5 grams
of the 4/12 azo-clathrate ( yes , a gram and a half ) likewise pressed .
This amount of initiator guarantees overdriving of the large base charge .
The firing squib is made from one of the little Christmas tree lamps
which has had the tip ground off using a a fine grit drum sander chucked
in a drill . I use a razor knife to cut a short bushing from some polyethylene
tubing which is 7/32 " bore and 3/8 " outside diameter , so that the bushing
is just a bit longer than the exposed section of the glass bulb . Then I
hold the end of the bushing against the edge of the flame from a propane
torch at a low idle setting to gently melt and just ignite the molten plastic ,
blow it out as if blowing out a candle and immediately shove the little
Christmas tree lamp inside the bore and twist it a half turn as the plastic
lamp socket seats into the molten polyethylene , which heat welds the
lamp socket to the bushing . I have a brass tube with a 3/8" bore and
a slightly flared " throated " opening handy , and while the plastic is still soft
from the heat welding , the squib assembly is shoved cool end first
inside the brass tubing quickly , and allowed to cool . The flare and the
bore of the brass tubing functions as a die to reshape the distorted portion of
plastic weld which bulged slightly outward when the pieces were twisted
together while very hot . When the piece cools it is pushed out of the
brass "die" with a dowel , and it is ready for loading with the igniter charge .
It takes a little practice to see just how long to "flame" the bushing ,
about three or four seconds while rotating it with the fingers , about
the same for performing the "twist weld" of the bushing to the miniature
lamp socket , and then without delay shoving the still soft part into the
brass tubing die to reform the weld area . The whole process takes
maybe ten , no more than fifteen seconds . One of those tapered plastic
dispenser tips which can be cut off to provide a smaller or larger opening
for applying a bead of glue or whatever else from a plastic squeeze bottle ,
can be cut to fit the bushing bore and fit snugly over the open end of
the tip of the miniature lamp . This will make a handy loading funnel for
filling the bulb with the igniter composition .
After the bulb is filled and the funnel removed , a piece of tape , or a 3/8" adhesive "marker dot"
can be used to cover the end of the loaded squib and retain the igniter charge while the squib
is inserted into the loaded detonator . The gap around the leg wires can be sealed with a
non-hardening elastomeric glazing or gasket compound which never sets up completely but remains sticky .
For really long term storage devices you may want to replace the vinyl insulated leg wires
with teflon insulated wire , since vinyl insulation will gradually embrittle
after maybe 15 years , but teflon is probably good for 75 years or more .
Spraying the vinyl insulated legwires with a urethane lacquer would probably
extend the storage life greatly , as would keeping the devices in a hermetically
sealed and dry container , stored with silica gel for example , in a dark and cool
place , not exposed to a steady supply of ozone from the atmosphere which
causes the degradation of plastics . The only potential difficulty I can foresee
is at the physical contacts where the bulb wires are pressed into the miniature
socket . After some years of storage , oxidation of the brass contacts might
require a higher firing voltage , unless these contacts were upgraded in advance
to being soldered connections . For the ultimate in bridgewire assemblies , it
is possible to use fine nichrome wire fed out coaxially from tubular stainless
support legs made from hypodermic needle tubing bearing multiple crimps ,
and the tubing then silver soldered to gold plated connectors equipped with
solder cups which receive the copper legwires . That specification is sort of
reserved for applications where extraordinary reliability and storage longevity
is required , such as for aerospace applications , ejection seats ,
spacecraft components , ect . , of course such a scheme will work just as
reliably for terrestrial applications if you simply must have the best and nothing
less will do :D

What weights of charges and what column diameter are you using and what sort of capsule and pressing scheme ?
I used for all 10 experiments 3/4 gram of the ignition charge I mentioned, 3/4 gram 4/11 lead nitrate azo-clathrate, and 1
gram pale, dry picric acid. I used a 5.56mm aluminum tubing with about a 5/10ths mm wall thickness. I can not be accurate
as to how many pounds of pressure I used to press the charges. I just use one of those manual table mounted presses and
put all my weight(150LBs) onto the handle while pulling myself down against the table. The ignition charge was not pressed at
all but just poured on the clathrate and a fuse was inserted and the aluminum tube crimped with needle-nose pliers. Like I
said they all detonated. They were placed in 5 gallon plastic buckets. After the experiments I used a spray bottle to finely mist
the inside of the white buckets to see if any picric acid was in there, because water turns even small grains of PA a brilliant
yellow. There wasn't any. Just black burn marks and damaged buckets.
The compound I liked best was the 4/12 azo-clathrate ,

[ 4 ( basic lead picrate / lead nitrate / lead azide ) 12 ( lead azide ) ] . This
had a better density and power than the acetate variant , and is an improvement
over the 4/11 azo-clathrate of the patent . You don't want an azo-clathrate
for the igniter . It would not provide the benefit of the low order detonating
flash igniter and could prematurely shatter the upper portion of the capsule .
You must of misunderstood me, what I meant was making an ignition charge of Lead Acetate-bis basic lead picrate instead of
the lead nitrate of the patent.
The barium chromate and aluminum are not really needed with
the lead nitrato-bis basic picrate . They probably do little to
enhance the initiation , since that particular igniter burns very hot
by itself and quickly goes to low order detonation with a dual
effect of both thermal shock and percussion which is more than
sufficient in either effect alone to cause the azo-clathrate to
initiate at high order , without ever actually being ignited first ,
which it could do very nicely too , if for some reason the first fire
was sluggish . There is a lot of redundancy in the first two elements
of such a firing train , which insures the reliability by simultaneously
providing three valid paths to detonation , any one of which can get
the job done .
I was just following the patents advice, they did recommend page 2, line 30-40 that the main igniter be admixed with
oxidisers such as potassium chlorate, barium peroxide, and calcium peroxide, and powdered metals of Zirconium, Magnesium,
and aluminum. They gave as an example:
70% Picrate igniter

15% Potassium chlorate
15% Zirconium
I just figured it was to add some extra umph to the igniter.
Generally what goes into one of Rosco's #20 special engineers magnum compound detonators ,
is 2.5 grams of picric acid pressed firmly in .5 gram increments and topped with 1.5 grams
of the 4/12 azo-clathrate ( yes , a gram and a half ) likewise pressed .
This amount of initiator guarantees overdriving of the large base charge .
I was wondering do you use the same pressure on the azo-clathrate as you do in pressing the Picric Acid? Also like me do you
just pour the igniter over the azo-clathrate without compacting it?
I have saved for myself a copy of the thread of Mr. Anonymous about moving up to the 4/12 clathrate, I will be trying that
next, as I have thus far gone exactly by example 5 of the patent. I was just wondering if there is any special advice when
making the 4/12 instead of the 4/11? What I mean is have you just followed Mr. Anonymous' synthesis to the word and letter
or have you discovered your own special method?
Thank you again for your reply! :D
Rosco Bodine February 25th, 2005, 02:00 AM

The lead nitrato-bis basic picrate is good to go as an igniter and
pretty well state of the art as it is , needing no improvement .
The additives for the igniter are something for creating particles
of burning slag to increase the burning time for cartridge primers ,
and create multiple ignition points in a smokeless powder charge .
You don't need that effect in a blasting cap , just an intense heat
and low order detonation , from an easily ignited material .
For the smaller 1 gram base charge you are using , a 6 mm column is fine .
But what you have there is about like a commercial # 8 and won't do the
job well for most improvised AN explosives or for something difficult
to initiate like urea nitrate . Since the least amount of work is involved
in the loaded materials , I would always recommend a pretty heavy loading
for custom made detonators . That way the product of your effort is
universally applicable to anything you would want to detonate , and
would overdrive the more sensitive compositions where a smaller cap
would be adequate . It hurts nothing to use a bigger cap than needed .
But poor results can certainly occur from using a detonator that is just
adequate . So the error should be in the direction of using a heavier loading
than is required .
The initiator is pressed firmly on top of the base charge . The igniter is
always a loose charge . In a fuse cap I simply load a quarter gram of
the loose igniter on top of the pressed initiator . In an electric squib ,
just whatever amount of igniter fills the bulb is used , and no additional
amount of igniter is placed on top of the initiator , because the squib is
pressed firmly in contact with the initiator . When the squib is fired ,
the jet from the igniter easily blows through the tape covering and
sets off the initiator .
Mr. Anonymous and Rosco Bodine are aliases for the same person .
2,4,6-TNP February 25th, 2005, 03:15 PM

Mr. Anonymous and Rosco Bodine are aliases for the same person .
Forgive my ignorance! I knew there was something familiar about your writing style. I'd like to pay you a compliment: you
have an excellant vocabulary, you are witty, and you know your topic well. It is always a joy to talk with you!
Have a beautiful, clam-happy day!

Forgive my ignorance!
No problem , my first alias was created by the necessity of webspeak
for e-mail and all other internet service account designation requirements .
I trust also that on your birth certificate and drivers license your own
real world name is likely something different from " 2,4,6-TNP " :D
The internet has made " multiple personalities " of many otherwise ,
( or at least seemingly ) " sane " people who were single distinct individuals
before undergoing their imposed binary " ascension " to plural identities .
Let's face it that we have become significant forces in the universe when
we have become so huge that for those such as we are , only one name is
inadequate :D
I knew there was something familiar about your writing style. I'd like to pay you a compliment: you have an excellant
vocabulary, you are witty, and you know your topic well. It is always a joy to talk with you!For years I struggled with self-doubts
concerning my own excellence before becoming resigned to an acceptance of the truth that of course I am a gentleman and a
scholar and one hell of an engineer ;)
Have a beautiful, clam-happy day!

Same to you .
Regarding your loading press , if it is an arbor press , you can make an

adapter socket to fit over the pinion shaft , and use a ratchet style
torque wrench to establish any repeatable loading pressure you choose .
You can even place a set of bathroom scales under the ram and determine
what sort of ram pressure corresponds to a particular letoff setting on the
torque wrench , and then do the math to know what torque setting will
result in a desired force being applied by the ram . In this way you can
make the pressing operations consistent , and know when you are applying
exactly the force you wish to apply in each operation .
Some of the heavy duty rack and pinion jacks which are used to raise and lower
the hitch on the towing bar of trailers might be useful in improvising a sort
of light duty arbor press for applying up to a few hundred pounds of pin pressure ,
and such an improvised press could be controlled using a torque wrench in
the same way .
2,4,6-TNP March 5th, 2005, 05:58 AM

Dear Rosco,
I am the one to agree, you were kind to post the lead nitrate 4/12 azo-clathrate
synthesis, but there is something important missing. You claimed you synthesisized Sodium Azide from over the counter shit.
So let it be revealed to me this very day.
I am pathetic in my use of airbags, would it not be fitting for you to tell:

What are the over the counter precursors you used?
And the synthesis that is your finest?
If you were to post your sodium azide synthesis I would be honored and you would surely make my day.
I am sad because my azo-clathrate synthesis is thus far botched I'd say because of contaminents. Please telll me the proper
synthesis. It is likely more economical than my airbag purchase and my dissappointing botching of my finest Primary thus far!
Thank you Rosco!

At the risk of getting myself put on a bunch of peoples " shit list "
I am going to say you should probably stick with your airbag source
and try to quantify the composition of the airbag extract so you can
work better with it . On the scale of difficulty , 1 to 10 , an airbag
extraction is a " 1 " and a total synthesis of sodum azide is a " 10 " .
The sodium azide synthesis I devised has been described in summary fashion ,
but I never posted the synthesis as a 1-2-3 step by step Experimental . The
process involves first synthesizing Hydrazine Sulfate , and Isopropyl Nitrite .
The synthesis of the isopropyl nitrite requires sodium nitrite , which has limited
availability as a preservative used for canning or drying meats . It can be obtained
OTC but it requires some effort searching to find it , and sometimes it will be mixed
with sodium chloride and sold as a " meat pickling salt " , from which it would need
to be isolated . A butcher shop or meat packing plant would probably have on hand
the pure sodium nitrite , which they use in quantity as a minor ingredient in the
salting solution for processing tons of meats . Forklift pallets of hundred pound bags
are kept on hand at larger operations . I have seen it available as a " home canning "
supply item in five or ten pound bags , from " farm supply " type of businesses , but
I don't recall the details . I think I have seen it sold as a " hunters and outdoorsman "
supply item for making " venison jerky " and similar preserved meat foodstuffs , sold
as a mail order item by " safari / expedition outfitter " type of suppliers . So the
sodium nitrite can be found , but it takes some looking in the likely places to find
who has it for sale . Otherwise it is not OTC and has to be made by one of the known
methods from sodium nitrate .
Anyway , the synthesis of sodium azide requires glass and teflon reaction vessels ,
and is a bit complicated . It is done in a slightly pressurized sealed glass reaction
flask kept cold in an ice bath . The synthesis of the precursors and the sodium azide
itself pretty well requires proper lab equipment , or some very ingeniously improvised
substitutes . Even with the proper equipment , it is a lot of work . For example ,
using a 4000 ml erlenmeyer for making the hydrazine sulfate , and a 2000 ml erlenmeyer
for making the isopropyl nitrite , then a 1000 ml erlenmeyer for freebasing the hydrazine ,
and a 2000 ml three neck for the nitrosation reaction , a good three days work in the
lab gets you about 75 grams of sodium azide . There are easier things to make from
scratch , that's for sure . After doing the synthesis a few times , I realized that posting
the details as a step by step " Experimental " would likely invite people not having
either the knowledge or the proper equipment to get themselves hurt trying to perform
a synthesis which is hazardous in its every aspect , involving volatile and * extremely *
toxic materials , so as a matter of discretion I went no further in describing the process
in terms of a " recipe " , knowing full well that somebody having no business attempting
the synthesis would do so anyway , probably in an apartment or dormitory kitchen to
compound the danger even further . I posted enough summary information that I knew
any actual chemist reading what I wrote , would have sufficient information to duplicate
the synthesis , and also realizing it was best to leave it at that for knowing that people
requiring a six page step by step , simply don't have the " labsmarts " or the " chemspeak "
to understand and safely do the synthesis to a successful end .
I know it will sound conceited , but I already laid out the details for anybody qualified to
be doing that total synthesis of sodium azide , deliberately doing it in a way that those
folks who aren't qualified probably wouldn't understand half of what I said :D
The same strategy was applied to the disclosure of the other azo-clathrates . The
actual , for real , bona fide chemists out there will very quickly " catch on " , and those
who aren't , well they have no business proceeding until their knowledge is increased
to a level required for getting beyond that plain littered with carcasses where curiosity
killed many kindred cats of their same stripe :D .
Besides all that , it saves me a lot of typing :D

I am sad because my azo-clathrate synthesis is thus far botched I'd say because of contaminents.
I know of successful synthesis of the azo-clathrate by some using re-crystalized picric acid made from aspirin, home made
Lead nitrate, OTC Sodium hydroxide and "recycled" air bag Sodium azide. Purity is not likely your problem if you did your work
reasonably carefully. The close control of VERY SLOW addition rates, stirring intensity and temperature are the most difficult
aspects of that synthesis.
That being said, I'd like to see the complete azide synthesis from OTC- Mega recently posted an outline of the process
starting from hydrazine sulfate, but the process of producing the hydrazine sulfate itself was not described, also certain
aspects were assumed to be common knowledge of the readers and so were minimaly addressed.

I suppose I can at least compile some of the pertinent excerpts here
until I feel comfortable with the idea of laying out the step by step for
both the enlightened and the reckless :D . Anyone should be able to
extract the details from these excerpts and the relevant patents ,
which have also been posted before . I'll have to look later and post
the patent numbers for the pertinent patents .
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=757&*
Excerpt :
"These more dense and better quality hydrazine sulfate crystals perform much better in subsequent reactions where hydrazine
is freebased from its sulfate, requiring only half the previously required amount of added water to create stirrable slurries with
NaOH for methanol extraction of the freebase hydrazine hydrate. The more dense better formed crystals of hydrazine sulfate
may be freebased to hydrazine hydrate by portionwise additions of solid NaOH, the water produced as a by-product of the
freebasing being almost sufficient alone for creating a stirrable slurry capable of being extracted with methanol, taking up the
hydrazine hydrate in methanol while leaving behind the sodium sulfate as an insoluble residue. In practice it has been found
that only 10 to 12 ml of added water per mole of hydrazine sulfate is sufficient for the purpose of keeping the mixture in the
form of a slurry able to be extracted easily by methanol in sequential portions which are decanted from the residue until the
hydrazine has been effectively extracted from the insoluble residue of sodium sulfate crystals. Reducing the added water
requirement to this small amount in the freebasing of the hydrazine has eliminated the need for elaborate dehydration
schemes using alkoxides to obtain acceptable yields of sodium azide directly from the much drier methanolic extract of
hydrazine hydrate.
For the synthesis of sodium azide, methanolic hydrazine hydrate extract is further basified to slight excess of an equimolar
amount of NaOH and treated in the cold with a slight equimolar excess of isopropyl nitrite (preferable), or equivalent of
ethylene glycol dinitrite, to consistently produce sodium azide directly, in 65 per cent total yield based on the hydrazine sulfate
used for the freebasing of hydrazine hydrate into methanol. The improved freebasing technique using reduced added water
provides a useful yield of sodium azide by a process which involves no hazardous distillations of hydrazine or other added
tasks for chemical elimination of excess water. Isopropyl nitrite was found to have a low transesterfication activity on contact
with methanol in thecold, with cooling provided by immersing the azide production flask in an ordinary 0 degrees cold water
bath containing chunks of ice. With this cooling the partial pressure of methyl nitrite from transesterfication of the isopropyl
nitrite was sufficiently low that the back pressure provided by immersing a vent line from the closed apparatus to a depth of
sixteen inches into a water filled carboy prevented any free boiling away of the organic nitrite from the reaction producing
sodium azide, until the reaction was very near its endpoint. After three hours reaction in the cold, the temperature was raised
to boil away unreacted nitrite and the back pressure peak upon heating to drive the reaction to completion was raised to six
feet of water, (about two and one half pounds per square inch of back pressure ), maintained for fifteen minutes, before
gradually reducing the back pressure to atmosphere and allowing complete boiling off of any unreacted nitrite. An alternate
attempt to freebase hydrazine hydrate and use isopropanol for the extraction failed because of the stratification of the liquid
portion into two layers, leaving much of the hydrazine hydrate in the heavier more aqueous layer unextracted by the
isopropanol. Full details for the synthesis of sodium azide will be provided in a later communication. This digression simply
describes why the improved synthesis of the hydrazine sulfate is of special interest for producing the hydrazine sulfate in
better crystalline form by a method which improves its usefulness particularly as a precursor material for OTC sodium azide, or
when the purpose will be to freebase the hydrazine and extract it with methanol for any other use. "
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=253&*
Excerpt :
A practical method for pure crystalline sodium azide has been carefully worked out and tested by me and I have posted the
general description both here and at E&W , but not yet given a detailed step by step . The method requires proper lab glass
and teflon apparatus and a magnetic stirrer , and generally anyone having those things could duplicate
the process from my general description , so I never described it further . The method involves freebasing hydrazine hydrate
from solid hydrazine sulfate with solid sodium hydroxide using a minimal amount of water just sufficient to initiate the reaction
between the solids , the byproduct water from the freebasing being sufficient to result
in a just stirrable warm slurry of porridge like consistency , which consists of solid sodium sulfate and hydrazine hydrate in
water . Alternate portions of the solids are added to the stirred reaction mixture along with just enough water added by drops
to prevent the mixture from setting up solid . To perform this freebasing , I use a 1 liter erlenmeyer having a ground joint and
glass stopper greased with silicone , and a three inch octagon stirbar , set upon a stirrer hotplate on low heat . Initially I put
about half the solid hydrazine sulfate into the flask , dampened with a few ml of distilled water . The solid fine prilled NaOH
in an amount slightly over the amount of theory required for freebasing
all of the hydrazine in the total batch is preweighed and put into a plastic bottle with a dispenser tip having a snap cap , like a
glue dispenser bottle where you can cut off the tip to size the delivery opening . This allows for the addition in portions of solid
NaOH , and stoppering the flask and capping the plastic bottle of NaOH between additions to exclude moisture and air , which
will otherwise complicate matters during the manipulations of these materials . When the first portion of hydrazine sulfate has
become a thin slurry from additions of NaOH , the rest of the hydrazine sulfate is added and the additions of remaining NaOH
continued , adding any minimal amount of water needed , by the eyedropperful , using only sufficient water to keep the
mixture stirrable and prevent setup . Keeping the mixture hot , above the temperature where sodium sulfate transitions to a
hydrated salt is required throughout the freebasing . After all the NaOH has been added , the mixture is kept warm and stirred
for an additional ten minutes , and then extracted while still warm with succesive portions of methanol which takes up the
hydrazine hydrate and water while leaving behind the anhydrous sodium sulfate byproduct . All of the methanol extracts
should be done by mixing and decantation of the methanol
using four added portions about the same volume as the mixture being extracted .
Filtering will not work because of the air sensitivity of the hydrazine , and all manipulations should be done quickly
and stoppers put into place following transfers . Hydrazine is an efficient "getter" for oxygen and will actually pull a partial
vacuum in a stoppered flask when it reacts with any oxygen in the headspace over the liquid .
The vapor pressure of the methanol fumes escaping helps provide a protective blanket against the air which is detrimental
otherwise to hydrazine .
In the isolated methanolic hydrazine extract is dissolved a slight excess of

an equimolar amount of solid NaOH .
A corresponding slight excess molar amount of isopropyl nitrite is prepared separately .
When the methanol solution of hydrazine hydrate and NaOH is placed in a reaction
flask , setup for magnetic stirring and cooled by an ice bath , crystalline sodium azide
will precipitate in the cold mixture as isopropyl nitrite is gradually injected
below the surface near the bottom of the
stirred mixture . The reaction produces
pressure in the reaction vessel due to some transesterfication of the isopropyl nitrite to methyl nitrite . So the ground joints
must be wired or clamped to prevent their being dislodged by the pressure . The pressure is regulated by
having a vent line immersed in water to
a depth sufficient that the head pressure
will just slightly be overcome and allow
a very slow bubbling from the end of the vent line . I made an improvised "tilt tube
manometer" for pressure regulation , by
duct taping a six foot length of 2 inch PVC
water pipe to the neck of a glass gallon jug and filled the entire thing with water .
The vent line was shoved down through
the pipe and to the bottom of the glass jug where the end of the vent line could be observed bubbling . By sitting the
jug on the ground and leaning the top
of the water filled PVC pipe against a wall
at whatever height was desired , the back
pressure on the reaction vessel could be regulated to allow only a slight venting
evident by observing the bubbling at the end of the vent line . Tilting the assembly closer to a horizontal position
lowers the venting pressure , while raising
it towards vertical raises the venting pressure . By use of this setup it is easy
to maintain a controlled and safe pressure
within the glass system .
The injection of the isopropyl nitrite into

the system was accomplished by using
a non-equalized addition funnel equipped
with a drip window and a teflon capillary
delivery tube . A few drops of methanol
was added to the isopropyl nitrite in the addition funnel and the methyl nitrite produced by transesterfication served to
pressurize the funnel after it was stoppered , the stopper retained by a spring clamp for any overpressure relief .
This setup allowed for slightly pressurized
delivery of the isopropyl nitrite , into the
cold and therefore lower pressurized reaction flask below .
A good yield of pure sodium azide was obtained by this method. "
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4238&highlight=isopropyl+nitrite&*
Excerpt:
"The value of hydrazine for our purposes is limited to the usefulness

of hydrazine as a precursor in the synthesis of several different types
of primary explosives . Such a need is satisfied by the use of
hydrazine sulfate directly in some reactions . Other reactions require
the hydrazine hydrate freebase which may be obtained from the hydrazine sulfate
by reaction of the solid with solid sodium hydroxide , and the absolute minimum
of added water to form a thick slurry of sodium sulfate crystals in hydrazine hydrate ,
which is taken up in successive portions of methanol . Proper technique and glassware
is needed for reactions involving the freebase hydrazine since it is destroyed
fairly rapidly by exposure to oxygen of the air .
For lab scale synthesis of hydrazine sulfate , the reaction of urea and
sodium hypochlorite is the best method . There is an extensive detailed
description at the Hive . That process is superior to any other published
method for lab scale synthesis of hydrazine from common materials .
The reaction of a slight excess of isopropyl nitrite with a cold methanol solution
of hydrazine hydrate and slight excess of sodium hydroxide , in a slightly pressurized
reaction flask produces a solid precipitate of pure sodium azide crystals in pretty good yield .
A pressure relieved , sealed glass and teflon reaction flask and addition funnel ,
with magnetic stirrer and an ice water bath is needed for performing the synthesis .
Regarding isopropyl nitrite ,
The isopropyl nitrite needed for the synthesis of sodium azide may be prepared
in advance and kept cold in the freezer , stored in a glass bottle having a teflon gasketed
threaded closure . The isopropyl nitrite may be made at salted ice bath temperature ,
by fairly rapid addition of a freezing cold mixed solution of aqueous 31.45% HCl and
a slight excess of theory of 70% isopropanol , to a well stirred freezing cold aqueous solution
of sodium nitrite in slight excess of theory which has been dumped onto twice its volume
of ice cubes in a flask which is cooled by a salted ice bath . The HCl in isopropanol should
be introduced through a small bore teflon tube extending downward to near the bottom
of the stirred mixture of ice cubes and sodium nitrite solution , or else it will decompose
the isopropyl nitrite which rises to the surface as it forms , if the acid mixture drops onto the
surface and contacts the free ester . It is very important for this reason to introduce the HCl in
isopropanol , near the bottom of the flask to avoid the decomposition of the product .
When all the HCl isopropanol has been added , the stirring is stopped and the isopropyl nitrite
top layer along with some of the lower layer of byproduct salt water is quickly decanted into a
prechilled separatory funnel , and the lower layer drawn off and discarded . The oily ,
bright yellow isopropyl nitrite layer is drained into a prechilled glass bottle having a
teflon gasketed closure , sealed only moderately tight to allow for a bit of overpressure relief
if needed , and stored in a freezer . The storage bottle and cap should be preweighed
so that the added weight of the isopropyl nitrite product can be determined , and it will be known
what molar amount is available for use of this precursor in further reactions . The isopropyl nitrite
fumes freely in the air , producing nitrous fumes from decomposition , as well as fumes from
the intact ester which has a volatility similar to ether . These fumes are highly toxic and physiologically active ,
as is the liquid ester itself so due caution should be observed to avoid inhalation or skin contact ."
Excerpt :
"The urea process was simply the method which appeared to be

most promising for a lab scale approach to producing usable yields
with economy , easily available precursors , and minimal equipment ,
while still being a relatively clean and safe process . I did look at
alternative methods , but the urea method became the clear preference
after all the factors were considered . The urea method works so
well that the synthesis should be confirmed and a technical writer
should do a proper writeup and have it added to the four volume Wiley
Organic Syntheses as an improvement over the older method , whenever
they next update their publication .
Azides were the principal reason for my interest in devising a good method
for lab scale production of hydrazine . And the first order of business
there was to devise a method for producing pure sodium azide directly
without any need for distillation of hydrazine . The freebasing and
methanol extraction of the hydrazine hydrate , followed by reaction in
the cold with isopropyl nitrite , satisfied the goal of producing pure
sodium azide in good yield by the most direct approach found to work .
The alternative Hodgkinson patent process looks to be so simple that

I tried to replicate that reported work , but even after literally two dozen
experiments using the same or slightly varying conditions from those
reported by Hodgkinson , there was ZERO success in producing azides
by Hodgkinsons method , which I quite frankly believe to be fraudulent .
I even tried some significant variations applying my own ideas of how
to troubleshoot and modify the reaction conditions to achieve the desired
results , but nothing I tried worked , even when extremely close control
of pH , temperature , reaction concentrations and mixing parameters were
applied , negative results became the predictable outcome .
On paper and in theory the reactions work beautifully , but in the

reaction vessels , everything else but what you expect should happen
was the rule for "Hodgkinson type" hydrazine sulfate / sodium nitrite
reaction scenarios . Anyone who can make such a reaction produce
azides , should declare how the matter is accomplished , and take a
bow for discovering and sharing the secret . This puzzle has already
stumped and thoroughly humiliated both Rosco and Philou , so Marvin
you are invited and welcome to solve this enigma of molecule crafting ,
and please teach us what we want to know :D "

Thank you. I did assume that this series of synthesis without a proper fume hood and other protective and safety gear would
be most foolhardy-
I was losing my mind trying to corelate the Scienc Madness/Mr. Anonymous posts and the E&W/Roscoe Bodine ones some
days. BTW, I feel I'm fairly good at identifying writing styles (especialy technical writing) and had suspected the two were alter
egos.
I have a hunch about other facets as well.

A fume hood isn't required , but a closed reaction vessel equipped
with a vent line is needed for the nitrosation . A large centrifugal
blower can be used to pull a good draft across a work area and
discharge the vapors to a distance downwind . I also have a smaller
blower which draws its intake air through a twenty foot length of
flexible 4" round duct whose end is mounted in a ring which can
be clamped on the ringstand adjacent the opening of a reaction flask .
I light a stick of incense and place it nearby so that the streamer of
smoke gives a visible tracer for the airflow .
Run your hunches by me and I'll tell you if you are on the mark .
I'm actually a bit curious , particularly what the government type

snoopy lurkers may think of my little web published " science experiments " .
2,4,6-TNP March 6th, 2005, 04:05 AM

At the risk of getting myself put on a bunch of peoples " shit list "
If anyone, but the One God, puts you on their shit list I'd say there's no hope for them; A man who demonstrates wisdom and
knowledge should never be mocked! ;)
I am going to say you should probably stick with your airbag source
and try to quantify the composition of the airbag extract so you can
work better with it . On the scale of difficulty , 1 to 10 , an airbag
extraction is a " 1 " and a total synthesis of sodum azide is a " 10 " .
Hearing this makes me thankful for the airbags. I admit that I have not reached a level of such excellence and knowledge to
try to synthesize Sodium Azide myself. I accept the fact that I lack wisdom, knowledge, insight, discretion, prudence,
discipline, and understanding. Though I am ignorant, I long for wisdom and understanding with all my heart. I seek it in the
morning when I wake up, I search for it at midday, and in the evening my eyes look for it. Everywhere I search for wise men,
even here at the E&W I look for them. When I think I have found one I love him and listen and watch very carefully. :)
Anyway, thank you Rosco for your reply. I do have one question for you. I do not mean to be a burden to you, it's not my
purpose to wear you out. If it pleases you here is my question:
It is about recrystallizing sodium azide. I know sodium azide is highly soluble in water and slightly soluble in alcohol. I do not
know very much about recrystallization. I have recrystallized acetylsalicylic acid by first dissolving it in warm 99% isopropyl
alcohol, and then simply boiled off the alcohol and the ASA remained and was crystallized. I have recrystallized picric acid by
desolving it in minumum amount of hot water, filtering and then cooling in an ice bath, which nicely caused it to crystallize. So
I have observed a so called "boiling off" method and also a so called "cooling down" method. I have not been able this far to
as you say "quantify the composition" of car airbags because of a lack of knowledge that I hope you will remedy. In my first
attemp at synthesizing 4/11 lead nitrate azo-clathrate I simply crushed up sodium azide airbag pellets dessolved them in
warm water filtered off the iron oxide and whatever else and measured off some of the solution to use for the synthesis based
on what I estimated the sodium azide content to be. The synthesis was successful, but I could clearly see free lead azide
under a cheap microscope. That is the method I have been using and its product with excess lead azide is what I used for the
ten experiments using the white buckets. I was fearful about "boiling off" the sodium azide solution cause I thought it would
decompose, and when I tried the "cooling down" method I hardly got any sodium azide to precipitate. This is my frustration,
this is what is bogging me down! :(
As always, I thank you for your gentle reply! ;)
P.S. The reason for my question is this: I believe I will get the best results if I am able to weigh the dry crystallized sodium
azide instead of trying to calculate the contents of a solution.
Microtek March 6th, 2005, 07:05 AM

I'd just like to point out that I have carried out the total synthesis of azo-clathrate all the way from aspirin, metallic lead, nitric
acid, isopropanol, urea and hypochlorite ( and a few other trivial reactants ). I shall be the first to admit that it took some
experimentation to get it right, but once you have the procedures pegged, it can be done quite routinely.
Most of the procedures are taken from Rosco's work but I have a few alterations which are advantageous to me, because of
my supply situation:
1) Isopropyl nitrite is produced by nitrosation of IPA by N2O3 instead of HNO2 as follows: 43 ml HNO3, 50% is added to a
flask along with about 10 g potato starch. The flask is equipped with a one hole stopper wit a hose inserted ( both hose and
stopper should be somewhat acid resistant; PE will do ).
The flask is heated until the reaction becomes self-sustaining and the mix of NO and NO2 which is in equilibrium with N2O3 is
bubbled through about 50 mL IPA. This IPA should be held in another flask equipped with a two-hole stopper because most of
the isopropyl nitrite which is produced evaporates ( or maybe most of the nitrosation happens in the gas phase ) and the
gaseous product is led into a flask filled with crushed ice.
Once the reaction is over ( it is a very steady reaction, and can be left alone ) that is, the generation of NOx has almost
stopped, the product is easily isolated by the ordinary means.
While the describtion may seem long winded and complicated, it is in fact a very convenient method.
2) Production of hydrazine hydrate: 13 g hydrazine sulfate is placed in a suitable vessel along with 15 mL IPA, 99%. 4 g solid
NaOH is added and the pellets are crushed and triturated with the HS. After a few minutes, the powdered reactants will attain
the appearance of a paste as the produced NaHSO4 stubbornly holds on to the produced hydrazine hydrate. The paste is
worked through a little more to ensure complete reaction, and then another 4-5 g solid NaOH is added and worked into the
paste to convert the NaHSO4 into Na2SO4 which separates cleanly as a crisply dry powder.
The IPA solution of hydrazine hydrate is removed by decatation or with a syringe, and the remaining powder is extracted a
further two times with 10 mL IPA.
The advantage of using only IPA is that there is no possibility of cross-esterification during the reaction of isopropyl nitrite with
hydrazine hydrate, so there is no need to carry out the operation under pressure.
Also, the practically anhydrous conditions causes the sodium azide to precipitate completely and instantaneously from the
reaction mixture as the nitrite is added.

I'd just like to point out that I have carried out the total synthesis of azo-clathrate all the way from aspirin, metallic lead, nitric
acid, isopropanol, urea and hypochlorite ( and a few other trivial reactants ). I shall be the first to admit that it took some
experimentation to get it right, but once you have the procedures pegged, it can be done quite routinely.
Most of the procedures are taken from Rosco's work but I have a few alterations which are advantageous to me, because of
my supply situation:
Necessity is the mother of invention . Convenience and expediency are close

family relations . What can't be properly engineered may be improvised , or
in a pinch even nigger rigged , when that's close enough for government work :D
1) Isopropyl nitrite is produced by nitrosation of IPA by N2O3 instead of HNO2 as follows: 43 ml HNO3, 50% is added to a
flask along with about 10 g potato starch. The flask is equipped with a one hole stopper wit a hose inserted ( both hose and
stopper should be somewhat acid resistant; PE will do ).
The flask is heated until the reaction becomes self-sustaining and the mix of NO and NO2 which is in equilibrium with N2O3 is
bubbled through about 50 mL IPA. This IPA should be held in another flask equipped with a two-hole stopper because most of
the isopropyl nitrite which is produced evaporates ( or maybe most of the nitrosation happens in the gas phase ) and the
gaseous product is led into a flask filled with crushed ice.
Once the reaction is over ( it is a very steady reaction, and can be left alone ) that is, the generation of NOx has almost
stopped, the product is easily isolated by the ordinary means.
While the describtion may seem long winded and complicated, it is in fact a very convenient method.
That is a good workaround for the situation where sodium nitrite is not on hand .
The sodium nitrite has been a difficulty also in other syntheses like DDNP , and
other diazotization or nitrosation type reactions such as for R-Salt . I actually
have a folder containing various nitrite patents and syntheses , including the
starch and nitric acid " nitrous gases " generation method which was used
by Griess in the original work discovering the diazotization reaction . IIRC it
is also possible to similarly decompose nitric acid upon addition of paraformaldehyde ,
which also produces formic acid as a useful byproduct residue .
I am presently spoiled by having forty kilos of food grade sodium nitrite on hand ,
so I haven't been pressed to look at the useful alternative methods , and it
pleases me to see that the alternative method you have described has also
proven useful . This workaround alternative really does put the synthesis of
any compounds requiring nitrite within easier reach , providing an alternate
route for the one precursor which could have difficult availabilty .
2) Production of hydrazine hydrate: 13 g hydrazine sulfate is placed in a suitable vessel along with 15 mL IPA, 99%. 4 g solid
NaOH is added and the pellets are crushed and triturated with the HS. After a few minutes, the powdered reactants will attain
the appearance of a paste as the produced NaHSO4 stubbornly holds on to the produced hydrazine hydrate. The paste is
worked through a little more to ensure complete reaction, and then another 4-5 g solid NaOH is added and worked into the
paste to convert the NaHSO4 into Na2SO4 which separates cleanly as a crisply dry powder.
The IPA solution of hydrazine hydrate is removed by decatation or with a syringe, and the remaining powder is extracted a
further two times with 10 mL IPA.
The advantage of using only IPA is that there is no possibility of cross-esterification during the reaction of isopropyl nitrite with
hydrazine hydrate, so there is no need to carry out the operation under pressure.
Also, the practically anhydrous conditions causes the sodium azide to precipitate completely and instantaneously from the
reaction mixture as the nitrite is added.
You are absolutely correct and this is an extremely useful improvement .
I will have to try the use of IPA as the extraction solvent * again * .
Actually my original thinking was parallel to yours on this ,
for avoiding the transesterfication problem of methyl nitrite ,
which does complicate things when methanol is used for the hydrazine extraction solvent .
But I encountered a phase separation where the IPA would not mix with the slurry of solids
to form a single liquid phase and leave a solid residue of sodium sulfate .
I also exploit the half-neutralization of the low solubility hydrazine sulfate
to form the highly soluble dihydrazine sulfate and sodium bisulfate ,
to create a more fluid mixture and facilitate stirring , before adding
the remaining half of the solid NaOH to complete the freebasing
of the hydrazine hydrate and conversion of the sodium bisulfate
to the normal sulfate .
The reason for my phase separation problem I believe is that I did not attempt
to perform the freebasing of the hydrazine from hydrazine sulfate * already *
immersed in the IPA * before * the NaOH was added , but rather did the
freebasing in the aqueous system of the neutralization reaction's own byproduct water
along with a very small amount of added water . This created a persistent
aqueous phase reaction mixture which stubbornly resisted extraction by IPA ,
even when the phases were shaken together , the slurry remained a slurry
which refused to release its solids and contribute its liquid containing the
hydrazine hydrate to mix with the IPA and form a single liquid phase which
could be decanted . After observing this peculiar phase separation , I did
not try to isolate the problem with further experiments , but simply abandoned
the IPA solvent in favor of methanol , since methanol did extract the aqueous
phase cleanly and presented no phase separation difficulty . Now I know
that I abandoned IPA prematurely , and should have done further experiments
with the sequence and conditions for the freebasing of the hydrazine to see
if the persistent phase separation problem could be avoided .
Using IPA as the freebasing and * simultaneous * extraction solvent would provide
a reaction system which could be managed in an open beaker or
even an ordinary glass jar . An ordinary ice bath for cooling the reaction
mixture would probably still be a good idea since the isopropyl nitrite is
about as volatile as ethyl ether , and the formation of the sodium azide
is exothermic , which may cause unreacted isopropyl nitrite to escape a
too warm reaction mixture .
Another possibility that may be worth experimentation is that the formation

of the isopropyl nitrite may not have to be done as a separate reaction ,
but it may form in situ in the cold , basified hydrazine hydrate in IPA , as
the " nitrous gases " are simply bubbled through directly from the generator .
The isopropyl nitrite should react as quickly as it forms with the hydrazine
hydrate and NaOH to form the sodium azide directly . If this works as I
believe it probably would , you would simply bubble through the nitrous gases
from the generator until no more sodium azide precipitates , and then
filter the crystals .
These are very interesting developments . Interesting indeed .
2,4,6-TNP :
Pour your solution into a large shallow glass rectangular baking tray .
Place the tray on a heating pad and blow air across it with a small fan .
Evaporation produces crystals . Salt works have been around for
a few thousand years , and not one of them ever failed to work ,
so you can have confidence that yours will work as well :D
P.S. I don't mind a * few * compliments , even a pat on the back is okay .
But p l e e e e e ase don't be excessive with your praise .
It makes me feel like your dog is humping my leg :eek:
Child-of-Bodom March 7th, 2005, 06:50 AM

Sorry for bringing this thread back to basics, but Microtek or Pbd, did you ever had reproducable results with making 2,4-
dinitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate? I have some 2,4 dinitroallinine, and I would like to give it a try and post results. (I have
analar grade 2,4 dinitroallinine)
In the first post about 2,4-dbp, Microtek uses a very, very small amount of H2SO4 (1ml), may I ask how you stirred that?? In
an eppendorf tube with a very, very small flea or something like that?
Pdb, you didn't post any succes here around 2,4-dbp, did you ever managed to get it to work, or did you give up? Thanks in
advance for your answer.

In the first post about 2,4-dbp, Microtek uses a very, very small amount of H2SO4 (1ml), may I ask how you stirred that?? In
an eppendorf tube with a very, very small flea or something like that?
Let us Microtek answer: he has his own secrets to (often) handle very tiny amounts of chems. For myself, I multiplied his
proportions by 5, making handling of 5ml H2SO4 easy.
Pdb, you didn't post any succes here around 2,4-dbp, did you ever managed to get it to work, or did you give up? Thanks in
advance for your answer.
I have prepared 2,4-dbp four times, and, surprisingly, my observations differ somewhat from Microtek's. Match-head size
amounts of the stuff would deflagrate strongly with a very bright flash, when smaller equivalent amounts of DPNA would
detonate with high brisance (Microtek is claiming exactly the opposite). However, 0.3 gr of each hand pressed in a 4mm straw
give similar results on an iron plate. The power and brisance seem similar, however a few mg 2,4-dbp undergoes DDT, when
DPNA, in quantities of the order of size of 1mg, straightly detonates.
The only way to solve this puzzle would be than a third fellow prepare some of this stuff. Will you be that one ?
Child-of-Bodom March 7th, 2005, 12:22 PM

If no-one will be earlier then this evening, then 'yes' :D . Although I do nt have 3-nitroaniline, so I cannot compare with DPNA
:(.
Maybe a stupid question, but does the addition of NaNO2 to the SA release a lot of fumes?
I do not have a fumehood in my lab, so that means I have to do late-night experiments in other peoples labs...
----------
EDIT: Google and some common sence teached me some NO will form. I'll look for a free fumehood without much attantion,
otherwise I'll postpone the experiment.

:(.
----------

:(.
----------
pdb March 7th, 2005, 05:30 PM

Add NaNO2 over a 15 minutes period, holding the beaker in an ice bath and stirring well, and you will not get NOx in noticeable
quantity. A fumehood is thus absolutly unnecessary.
I would also advise that you don't exceed the amount of ice to be added in the procedure, and wash the precipitate once on
filter with water sligthy acidified with HClO4.



Well, it's not a secret really; it's just that I have furnished my lab to focus on "microscale" chemistry ( hence my name on the
forum ). At first it was a necessity due to space limitations, but then I came to the conclusion that the best ways to stay safe
when dealing with explosive or poisonous substances are to either handle them from far away or only handle very small
amounts.
Since the first method is quite impractical, I chose the latter...
Anyway, the sulfuric acid was stirred by placing it in a tall, narrow ( 25 mm ) cylindrical glass with a flat bottom along with a 20
mm stir bar. There was obviously not enough acid to cover the stir bar, but as it reaches almost to the walls of the container,
the contents are adequately mixed anyway.

amounts.

amounts.
nbk2000 March 8th, 2005, 07:22 PM

Roscoe:
You can withhold information if you want to, in the belief that it will deter the 'unprepared', but they'll do it anyways, only they'll
be guessing and that's what kills.
If they are fully informed, and see this involved process, that'll deter them if they're not serious about it, and if they are
serious about it, it'll keep them from getting killed.
This is what's always bugged me about patents...the whole 'those skilled in the arts' bullshit.
How do you get skilled in the arts except to be trained by those who already know it, if no one is writing down what they know?!
AAARRRGGHHH! :rolleyes:
Write down all you know about it, so others can learn, without the presumption of 'skilled in the arts' preventing the diffusion
of the skills.
Nobody taught me about the hazards of distilling HCN or making mustard. Those I had to learn by nearly dying and scars I'll
be bearing the rest of my life. I knew going in that the shit was dangerous, and took reasonable precautions, but it was the
little details that got me, the kind of details that were never written down on the assumption of 'skilled in the arts'.
nbk2000 March 8th, 2005, 07:22 PM

Roscoe:
of the skills.
nbk2000 March 8th, 2005, 07:22 PM

Roscoe:
of the skills.

Microteks variation of the method is a lot safer and less complicated ,
so it is a better candidate for " improvised sodium azide " .
Really I haven't kept any secrets about the experiments I have done .
I have simply never written down the synthesis as a step by step
experimental . But I did describe the conditions and the molar ratios .
That is often all the information which is given in many technical papers .
The most convenient synthesis for sodium azide is still something of a

work in progress . Microteks method and some experiments to follow
should pin down the details of a simple step by step which will be
another one for the books .




nbk2000 March 11th, 2005, 06:32 PM

Because of the length of this thread, I've consolidated all the mentioned patents into the following list for ease of use.
When the subject of the patent wasn't clearly stated, I left it blank, rather than guess.
Copy is going in the Patents List thread.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
American Patents:
US1478429 Igniters
See example 1 for the most simple.
US1511771
US1625966 lead methyldiisonitrosamine salt (PbMEDNA)
US2064817 Precursor to Lead Diazoaminotetrazolate Styphnate and related cpds.
US2066954 5-Nitrotetrazole
US2090745 Lead Diazoaminotetrazolate
US2175249 Igniter Compounds

See example 2 for one of the best "first fire" low order detonating flash igniters , a superbly useful and easily made
compound .
US2929699 Triaminoguanidine explosive salts .
US3173755
US3284255 Lead Azide and Barium Styphnate Explosive Initiator Composition
US3293091 Igniter
Example 4
US3431156 Azo-chlathrates
US4024818 Detonating composition Mercuric-5-nitrotetrazole .
British Patents:
GB0185555
GB0195344
GB0308179
GB0412460 Tetracene salts
GB0718934
GB0924239 Sorbitan Tetranitrate (NOT Sorbitol)
GB1069440 Crystalline Double Salt Pb Styphnate and Pb Nitroaminotetrazole
GB1519796 5-Nitrotetrazole
German Patents
DE258679 m-Nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate
nbk2000 March 11th, 2005, 06:32 PM

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
American Patents:
US1478429 Igniters
US1511771

compound .
US3173755
US3293091 Igniter
Example 4
British Patents:
GB0185555
GB0195344
GB0308179
GB0718934
German Patents
nbk2000 March 11th, 2005, 06:32 PM

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
American Patents:
US1478429 Igniters
US1511771

compound .
US3173755
US3293091 Igniter
Example 4
British Patents:
GB0185555
GB0195344
GB0308179
GB0718934
German Patents

Attached is an English language patent by Von Herz similar
to the later German patent DE258679 m-Nitrobenzenediazonium perchlorate
above .
Also of interest regarding " iso-MEDINA " type compounds

from ethylene or propylene gas reacted with N2O3 in
ether or other inert solvent is
US1473825

above .

US1473825

above .

US1473825

I've tried 2,4-dbp, but I failed. I let 5ml H2SO4 and 0.75g NaNO2 react, reaction coole dwith ice, but it didn't dissolve all. After
heating at 70C for an hour a little bit was still undissolved.
Due to a lack of time, I let the mixture stand over a couple of days, then I added 1.50g 2,4 dinitroaniline, the ice and the dil.
HClO4.
No precipitation was formed... Next time I will do the synthesis all in one... I keep you updated.

HClO4.

HClO4.
2,4,6-TNP March 27th, 2005, 12:53 AM

Dear Rosco Bodine,
When you were mentioning earlier in this thread that you believed
that an ignition charge is capable of compressing an adjacent primary
and base charge is the following patent anything of what you were
expressing? US6736068
2,4,6-TNP March 27th, 2005, 12:53 AM

Dear Rosco Bodine,
2,4,6-TNP March 27th, 2005, 12:53 AM

Dear Rosco Bodine,

The patent is very similar , but describes the effect applied in
an unconventional detonator of the the " safety detonator " type .
Dyno Nobel is confirming the principle I stated concerning the

in situ compression of the remaining firing train elements by
the initial relatively gentle pressure which is first developed by
the gases evolved from a flash igniter , before its combustion
makes the transition to low order detonation . The patent
seems to relate specifically to the principle applied to a design
for a detonator which contains no unequivocal primary as an
intermediate element in the firing train . However the principle
of in situ compression during the "first fire" combustion applies
to any scenario where a flash igniter is used . That is precisely
one reason which accounts for the superior output from a cap
which utilizes a flash igniter , as compared with an otherwise
identically loaded cap which has no flash igniter , but has its
unequivocal primary fired directly .
I suppose I must plead guilty to running off at the mouth about

state of the art stuff :D , since that looks like a recent patent .






2,4,6-TNP March 28th, 2005, 12:46 AM

The patent is rather new. It has taken them all this time to get to
where they are in using "thermites" to cause the detonation of
secondary explosives with out the aid of a primary, and I'm still
not convinced that they have mastered the technique completly. My guess
would be that they may end up with quite a few low order detonations with
that setup (I don't know)!
The more I study the configuration you mentioned of

using a column diameter of 9.5MM and using:
- .5 grams of Lead Nitrato-Bis Basic Lead Picrate of US2175249

- 1.5 grams of -[4 (Basic Lead Picrate-Lead Nitrate--Lead Azide)-11 Lead Azide] of US3431156
- 2.5 grams of high purity picric acid pressed in .5 gram increments
I'd say it's hard to improve on it, and I don't have much interest in
using thermites in detonators when I can use the configuration above.
I have just one more question about it to complete my knowledge about

how to best make use of it. Is a .5 gram ignition charge optimal to best
"cash in" on it's ability to compress the primary and base charge, or is
more than a .5 gram ignition charge needed to achieve the densities
mentioned in the patent?
Edit: When I said " I didn't have much interest in using thermites in
detonators" I was not trying to in any way discredit the writer's
of the patent, niether was I implying that I believed there invention
was a "dud" or unreliable( I don't know). In fact what I truly think is
that it is a most excellent idea if they can get it to work reliably.
In the past, every designer seems to try to stray away from using
any large amount of a primary and have tried to eliminate their need
for primaries altogether for safety reasons. However in this patent
the revelation that a thermite ignition mixture can compress a high
explosive to a greater density than is possible by normal loading
methods while at the same time causing it to detonate may well
be the near future of large military bombs.
Just think, if the detonator described in the patent works reliably

what's to keep them from scaling it up all the way to a 2,000 Lb
bomb? This would be possible, because no primary explosive
would be involved and thermite compositions are very stable!
Imagine a 2,000 pound "detonator" of this type where
everything is scaled up; the ignition charge and the secondary explosive.
Theoretically, you could use the very large thermite ignition charge
to compress the entire contents of a 2,000 lb bomb, while at the same time
causing the densified (not a word) secondary explosive to achieve unheard of
detonation velocities in a conventional bomb. Who knows? This may be what the
U.S. military is testing right now or if they're not it may be profitable for them
to work on it.
I just don't know! If I knew more about the so called

"dead-pressing" of some explosives (Which I think is still capable of detonating)
I would have a better idea about the limits of this to create
a new era in military munitions; The idea of using a low
explosive to compress a high explosive to a density unachievable
in the factory and by the same causing it's detonation!
Just a thought!
Thank you for your reply! :)
2,4,6-TNP March 28th, 2005, 12:46 AM





to work on it.

Just a thought!
2,4,6-TNP March 28th, 2005, 12:46 AM





to work on it.

Just a thought!

For the flash igniter in a fuse cap .1 gram of any Pb basic picrate type is plenty .
Using more , up to maybe .2 gram probably doesn't increase the output
of the entire firing train , and .5 gram is " doubly double " and then some
more beyond what you probably need .
In an electric cap , whatever amount fills the filament envelope is plenty .

Generally , .1 gram is a nice round number I have found works well and
provides a comfortable margin and .2 gram is as much as I'd ever use .
The important aspect for the flash igniter to quickly DDT to low order is
that it be used as a loose charge . Any pellet forming method applied
to the igniter composition will slow its DDT and increase the minimum
amount needed for reaching that DDT transition . Keeping this in mind
you can then fine tune the performance of the flash igniter to behave
as you desire . It depends on what is the nature of the adjacent material
and what effect you want to be delivered by the output of the " first fire "
composition , that determines how you configure the firing squib .
The column diameter for the firing train in a detonator has great bearing
upon the charge weights required to achieve a certain " volume geometry "
which is found to work efficiently in such devices . I have mentioned the
effect of initiators as being similar to the behavior and intended function
of a " ribbon charge " , where the directed energy is related to the geometry
of the layer , specifically the ratio of the thickness to the diameter for a
specific layer of initiating explosive .
Now for example say that at a 6 mm column diameter it is found that .5 gram
of some experimental initiator produces a pellet having an ideal geometry for
intiating the base charge at the same diameter . And lets say we intend to
scale up the detonator to a 9 mm column diameter , which is 1.5 times larger
in physical dimensions than the original 6 mm diameter test detonator . The
mind is tempted to believe that this is simple arithmetic , and that since the
larger detonator is 1.5 times larger then it should contain 1.5 times the charge
weights to maintain the charge geometry , even though that is a way wrong
" arithmetic " being applied to a * geometric * increase which is closer to 3.4 !
So to maintain the same charge geometry found to work well for the 6 mm column ,
and translate that geometry to a 9 mm column , all of the charge quantities for the
6 mm device have to be multiplied by 3.4 , due to the geometric nature of volumes
as they increase geometrically from increases in linear dimensions of containers .
Geometry is quite important for the firing elements in detonators , and so it becomes
clear that published figures regarding the performance of initiating explosives is
information which is only pertinent to comparisons performed in parallel tests done
under exactly the same conditions , at exactly the same column diameter where
different sample materials are compared to each other . Such information cannot
be directly translated to loadings and performance at any different diameters ,
where even a 1 mm change results in quite different characteristics because of
the altered volume geometry .
Anyway the point is , that for your own particular detonator design , you have
to test yourself the quantities and determine what are the threshold amounts
and extrapolated excesses you will employ for reliability . These firing trains
are indeed affected by small dimensional changes which have bearing on the
loadings found to be optimum . The exact loading figures for your particular
custom created design will therefore be absolutely unique to your device and
determined by your own tests . Whatever I tell you about such quantities is
something you should understand is then only a " ball park " generalization ,
and you may discover a variation on such figures from your own tests .




2,4,6-TNP March 28th, 2005, 03:52 AM
Thanks for your reply Rosco,
You must have replied just before I had a chance to edit my

last post. Please check the changes and my comments on the
possibilities of the patent that we looked at!
I know that either there are real possibilities there or it won't

work at all. However the detonator setup you have described
seems flawless and I have enjoyed discussing it with you.
Thank you!
2,4,6-TNP March 28th, 2005, 03:52 AM



Thank you!
2,4,6-TNP March 28th, 2005, 03:52 AM



Thank you!

Various types of safety detonators have been described before
and the in situ compression effect occurs to some extent in all
of them . The new idea of the patent seems to be the use of
a movable piston which acts as a carrier for the deflagrating
material functioning as the initiator , to enhance compression
of the base charge . I am not sure how much advantage this
provides over the effect where the charge pellet itself behaves
as a piston , even without any additional " sliding sleeve " ,
the benefit of which is likely greater in simply providing a stronger
confinement . Pressure would likely expand and lock the sleeve
in the housing and the pellet would extrude through the carrier
shearing from the pressure anyway . I place greater confidence
in detonators which do still rely on a primary explosive initiator ,
having materials which are capable of redundant paths to detonation
inherent in the design . I would disagree with the premise of the
design of safety detonators that primary explosives are somehow
unsafe by their nature . Every primer in every cartridge of ammunition
contains a primary explosve , and crates of millions of rounds of
firearms ammunition sit in storage for decades , without ever just
" going off " . The same applies to blasting caps containing initiators .
They function as they are intended , and some of the initiating explosives
which the detonators contain are actually more stable and predictable
than the base charges . So how much validity is the premise that a
detonator is safer somehow if it is designed to remedy a danger which
does not really exist ?
As for the application of the compression effect to larger devices , well

that sems unlikely to be of any interest since cast loadings are already
used to achieve highest density .





Ok, I tried again.... I dissolved 0.75gr NaNO2 in 5ml H2SO4 in an ice-EtOH bath, heated it after 15 min to rt, (12C brrr), and
after 20min, the erlenmeyer was transferred to a watherbath of 55C, 10 minutes later everything was dissolved.
1.5gr 2,4DNA was added in small portions, the slurrie was poured to a beaker, (next time I'll start in a beaker...) and 21grams
of ice was added. A yellow, but ice-cold solutiuon was the result, this was filtered, and 1 ml HClO4 dissolved in 25ml dH2O was
added at one, and the solution was stirred vigoriously.
In less then a minute, a yellow precipitate was seen, stirring was continued for 1 more minute, the solution was filtered, and
washed later with dH2O acidified with a little HClO4.
No color change of the precipitate has occured, even after 12 hours. Tests are not perfomed yet, hopefully to come in the next
week.
The strange thing is although that I have a sore throught, and it feels like I've sniffing a lot of NO2, while there was hardly any
present in the reaction...

week.

week.
pdb May 25th, 2005, 03:56 PM

Microtek :
The movie posted by Axt (http://geocities.com/roguemovies8/) shows clearly that this salt deflagrates in small amounts, when
DPNA detonates in same quantity. This is concurring with my own observations and contradictory to yours. I am thus wondering
which alternate salt you may have synthesized or under wich differrent conditions you performed your DDT test.
pdb May 25th, 2005, 03:56 PM

Microtek :
pdb May 25th, 2005, 03:56 PM

Microtek :
209 July 15th, 2007, 03:27 AM

I would really like to make some Lead Styphnate and I have all the required materials except for this acid: Styphnic acid.
Through research I have found that styphnic acid is quite similar to picric acid. Would Picric work to make Lead Styphnate?
The_Duke July 15th, 2007, 04:52 AM

The short a nswer is no :rolleyes:
You will be hard pressed to find styphnic acid as it is explosive. You will have better luck searching for resorcinol.
Don't resurrect old threads to ask questions that are irrelevant to the topic at hand, and in the future, UTFSE!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Molten AP
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View Full Version : Molten AP

I was doing some molten AP experiments in a very small quantity and I found that molten AP doesnt deflagrate, it detonates. I the amount I used was about half a pea by
volume. It detonated with a force that was a little more than expected, without confinement. I w as thinking a slow heating to detonation in confinement would yield more
"power", its not really practical but its an idea to play with.
bobo September 30th, 2003, 01:12 PM

What temperature was the AP at the moment of detonation? Did it detonate by itself (or rather the heat) or did you actuate the detonation? How did you heat it? How much AP
was it?
This post made me think of melting powdered AP and then putting it inside the cap to make it more dense (but not in a large quantity). I have been thinking of 'sintering' AP to
increase crystal size already. Would this be a good idea?
Kriegsminister September 30th, 2003, 01:42 PM

You'd rather w ant your crystalls to be small. The crystalls themselves would be dense but the large spaces betw een the crystalls would rather reduce the density. These large
crystalls are also more easily broken (when pressing for example) and I guess you don't want that to happen.
I don't know w hy people always try to melt AP. It's dangerous and a waste of time. Experimenting w ith molten AP might be interesting but using molten AP for blasting caps is
suicidal. The difference in density between molten and w ell pressed AP is negligible. AP is a sensitive explosive and you w ould not try to hit it with a hammer either. Neither
would you try to melt another primary explosive. Pressing the AP is a lot safer, faster and easier. There shouldn't be any great differences in performance.

Increasing the crystal size is not a good idea when it comes to AP, large crystals may detonate from being snapped of. The smaller the crystals are the less sensitive they get,
and that is what you want. At least w ith AP which is really sensitive even when the crystal size is very small.

Anthony has had success with casting AP using a hot w ater bath. Others have tried melting AP using a flame, and invariably get an explosion for their efforts.
If your container is clean, your AP acid-free, and you don't try boiling it, then it can be done reasonably safe. A cast AP detonator would have maximum detonation velocity
possible because of the lack of any air gaps in the crystal matrix.
It should also be safer to press because there would be no "give" when pressing anything else on top of it as the AP would be one solid crystal.
FireFly September 30th, 2003, 11:59 PM

I have some HE tip rounds by melting AP then pouring the liquid into hollow-point rounds (.22 Mag. cal.), then sealing with some clay, super glue, and a piece of tape. I've been
to afraid to test them, for fear they may explode while still in the gun. I could easily find another way to pull the trigger while I am safe behind a wall, but this would be a waste
of a good gun if they were to blow apart the barrel, though I doubt such a small amount would amount to much more than perhaps, damage to the inside. Cyclonite, have you
or perhaps anyone else tried something like this with AP? I would like to make something like this for a .30-06 for deer season.
DBSP October 1st, 2003, 09:58 AM

Well I wouldn't like having a 30-06 round racing through the barrel w ith AP inside the bullet. Smells like suicide. The bullet gets red hot from the friction inside the barrel and
might very well ignite the AP. The case might be a bit different w ith a 22LR or a 22WM. BUT I w ouldn't trust it in a high powered rifle
And w hy on earth would you like to shoot a deer with a exploding bullet??? The point is kinda that you should be able to keep the meat afterwords and eating it without having
to run the meat through a metal detector before eating it, well whats left of the deer anyway.
Nevermore October 1st, 2003, 10:04 AM

well i definitely agree, looks stupid and is stupid.
i w ouldn't care so much about hot bullet but about the powder deflagration and also the bullet primer, if the ap doesn't go on simpaty maybe it will since the enormour
acceleration of the bullet..and you will end with a blow n or damaged barrel..
to get back on topic, before melting Ap i w ould think about the costs/advantages:
what do i get better from molten Ap? better VoD, is that a good idea to get better VoD if for doing it i have to dangerously work with a dangerous compound?
If the answ er is yes, go for it, if the answer is not..well is my case.
bobo October 1st, 2003, 01:38 PM

What about less sensitive explosives? You would need an explosive to detonate on impact.
I find it an interesting idea, if only to try out w ith a gas powered pistol. You can readily buy gas pistols legally in many countries. If it is possible to shoot a HE bullet with enough
force to detonate on for example a metal plate, this would make an interesting toy.
Nevermore October 1st, 2003, 03:34 PM

uhm as you know those airgun comes out in small calibers, mainly 4.5mm, few 5mm, some 5.5mm and not so many 6.5mm..
also they usually use small ammo that are double conical shape and empty on the inside to be light, made of soft lead..i don't see how could you store HE inside them, even if
you find a way, how much do you think you can shoot? the pellet should be very light, you cannot overw eight it...
the small caliper doesn't help, you should made a cilinder shape of the HE to store enough in front of the bullet, and how do you plan not to let it touch the barrel rifling while
shooting?
if you can fix those small problems, then, it could be a good idea..
FireFly October 1st, 2003, 03:35 PM

Perhaps the HE tip idea would be more practial if the AP w as still wet, and thus less sensitive, or perhaps a more stable primary, MEKP perhaps.
To get back on topic, I remember reading somew here, where someone was doing different blasting cap tests. One test was a delay initiator (sp) using AP, the AP w as in powder
form until the cap began to heat up from burning BP in an outside casing, and thus turning the AP into a liquid, running down a chamber in the blasting cap, and forming into a
large soild chunk and being initated by a reaction or from a touch explosive. (Something like NI3, exploding, thus making the AP deflagrate). This would be impractical, even if
you get a better VoD, why not just use something better. One reason why this could be better, is it would be safer to carry small amounts of AP at a time over one big chunk,
but messing w ith NI3 would make the cap even more sensitive, so perhaps some sort of a chemical reaction would be ideal. I wish I could find w here I found this information,
so I could post it, but my memory fails me all to often.
Cyclonite October 2nd, 2003, 07:54 AM

The amount w as around .1g or less. Im in a terrible place to experiment so I really dont have any more info. I agree with the fact that its not a safe thing to do by any means
but interesting
DBSP October 2nd, 2003, 02:45 PM

Nevermore, I'd definately be w orried about having AP in a piece of metal which is read hot, w ouldn't you?
And the thing about the AP going off by sympathetic detonation (if that is what you mean) from the SP deflagrating I w ouldn't worry about that. The AP is w ell protected inside
the bullet.
It might however detonate from the enormous acceleration though. Thing is don't put AP in a bullet fired from a high power rifle.
There is a pdf on the FTP which describes some testing of putting AP in the tip of remington yellow jacket hyper velocity .22LR rounds.
Nevermore October 2nd, 2003, 04:15 PM
I WOULD be w orried to shoot something that has AP inside it! Because could get red hot but even because it will be subject to acceleration..I don't think is safe to try those
things with an unstable compound like Ap. But if w as thinking about an explosive ammo for .38 bullets ( i don't know if w ill work or not anyway here is my idea (hoping i didn't
steal someone else's)): Starting from a lead SWC bulled, i would make a small hole on the tip (around 2mm in diameter) that goes down the axis of the bullet stopping 4-5mm
before the bottom, that hole is enlarged to fit a magnum small pistol primer, the primer should be seated not so deep, but that at least 1/3 of the primer is showing off the
bullet tip.
When the bullet hits the target it first hit with the primer that deflagrates and the deflagration gases will apply pressure on the small 2mm canal inside the bullet, so stressing the
lead and giving more chances of expanding the bullet.
I never tried due to law regulations over here, but it would be interesting to try..anyway i don't know if is useful in Usa, you have access to hydrashok bullets...here hp are
forbidden...
beside that, i w onder if more stable compound than Ap could be used as HE in bullets...22lr should be ideal candidate, slow enough, not getting hot, easy to get, not much
acceleration, but the small hole makes a poor storage capacity..i've to pass out over that, i've no really idea how to store He inside a .22lr bullet...
nbk2000 October 2nd, 2003, 10:20 PM

Loading explosives in bullets doesn't have any real effect, compared to a similar caliber bullet (only in hollow point), until it reaches .50 caliber or larger.
So why risk damage to you or your rifle?
bobo October 3rd, 2003, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by Nevermore
uhm as you know those airgun comes out in small calibers, mainly 4.5mm, few 5mm, some 5.5mm and not so many 6.5mm..
also they usually use small ammo that are double conical shape and empty on the inside to be light, made of soft lead..i don't see how could you store HE inside them, even if
you find a way, how much do you think you can shoot? the pellet should be very light, you cannot overw eight it...
the small caliper doesn't help, you should made a cilinder shape of the HE to store enough in front of the bullet, and how do you plan not to let it touch the barrel rifling while
shooting?
if you can fix those small problems, then, it could be a good idea..
I was thinking of a converted brocock airgun, they would be easy to modify according to some articles I read a time ago. I do not have a gun so cannot tell by myself. It is a BB
and pellet gun but is should be able to fire home made ammo.
zaibatsu October 3rd, 2003, 08:46 PM

This is very OT, but I'll explain. I've got a brocock specialist, nice it is too, but not cheap. You have a brass "cartridge" case, that is filled with compressed air via a pump or
diving cylinder. After filling up, you place a pellet in the head of the cartridge and screw the head back on. The bore size is 4.5mm - 5.5mm, and the frames are so designed as
to break should much backwards force act upon them AKA firing anything remotely recoilling in them. IF you want something that can handle forces, check out the old Saxby
and Palmer air pistols, and try retro-fitting a brocock cylinder in them.

My idea anyone want to try this out?
HE .177 ammunition (http://llc.arvixe.com/pics/HEpellet.jpg)
edit: On another thought how much AP would this be .05g? Which would do nothing:(
Maybe making pellets by melting lead into a block of wood w ould be a better way to make a HE pellet that can hold more AP...
Ansgar October 22nd, 2003, 04:53 PM

Long time ago a friend and I tried using AP in a .22 longrifle projectile that I drilled up myself. The first few shots we were a little nervous but it turned out to w ork just fine (in
that caliber anyway) and quite reliably - depending though how hard you seal the tip of the projectile.
The projectile was drilled slowly in a special holder made to center drill and provide a large grip surface around the lower projectile/upper case. Drilling w as cooled with alcohol
and drill scraps frequently removed as they tend to stick to the drill and jam if they get too long.
The drill w as 2.2 mm and drilled down to leave a minimum of about 2 mm w all in the bottom of the projectile.
Now as NBK mentions there is no really spectacular effect like the target exploding into peaces. But there is the distinct effect that the amount of AP is sufficient to rupture the
projectile into small fragments. And this is initiated (depending on the hardness of the seal) already w hen the projectile passes trhough a piece of thin cardboard - like from the
back of a paperblock. The largest (heaviest) fragment alw ays being the bottom of the projectile.
We usually sealed it w ith a tiny amount of epoxy ontop w ith one layer of paper (painted red for the looks) betw een the AP and epoxy. A softer seal, needing less 'actuation' to
initiate the AP would be w ax but w e didn't like that as it w asn't as mechanical stable for magazines or elevated storagetemperatures like in the window of a car parked in the
sun etc.
If the AP should explode in the barrel I don't think it w ould be dangerous in any w ay. We fired many (at least 100)of these modified bullets, someone probably exploded in the
barrel without we ever knowing about it. I think the pressure would just leave forward and perhaps squeezing the lead a little towards the barrel wall. Though it wouldn't be
good when using a silencer.
Though remember, all this is for the .22 lr caliber. I have never tried it w ith larger jacketed calibers and don't think I will either.
Stay great.
Unknown October 23rd, 2003, 01:51 AM

As far as melting AP, I wouldn't recommend it. Heating AP by any method is just crazy.You would probably be better off casting the AP with some NC or wax, although I've
never tried the wax. The NC/AP, NC/HMTD works very w ell.
Ansgar, I can assure you that none of those rounds went off in the barrel. I tried to fire an AP loaded pellet from my crossman .22 cal air rifle. I had loaded the pellet into the
wider portion that opens up before the end of the barrel (approx. 1 1/2 in. back from the muzzle). The setback caused by the air slamming the pellet caused it to detonate. The
end of the barrel looked like a peeled bananna.
McGyver October 23rd, 2003, 01:59 AM

What kind of pellets did you use? Maybe the pellet exploded because the AP was loose, did you pack the AP?
This would be a good pellet to load AP into hollowpoint (http://pyramydair.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/pellet.pl?pellet_id=237)
Jacks Complete November 16th, 2003, 03:29 PM

At the risk of re-opening this topic by dragging it back to almost ON topic:-
If you can grow a sizable crystal of AP, then you could take one large crystal, and use that.
You w ould get the maximum possible power out, det. velocity, etc. and you wouldn't need to worry about packing or anything.
Just don't break it!
Desmikes November 17th, 2003, 01:59 AM

I don't know about other countries but here they sell "Porohovie" (in rus) i.e "black powder" rounds. These are desined do fit inside a barrel and not to explode unless they slam
into something. As far as demolition goes, they are worthless and the accuracy is pathetic. They do how ever make a lot of noise and produce considerable (view able) amounts
of fire. I am not sure w hich explosive they use (the name is obviously deceiving) but they are conicly shaped and have a coper ring that rests far back and compresses
explosive on contact w ith surface, they come in plastic and lead versions. So go look for some before going through the trouble of making them. The one thing that would be
more fun as far as wxplosive projectiles go w ould be an arrow (for a bow ) tipped with epindorf tube (1.5 ml medical containers that you can get thousands of) filled with AP.
But unless you are absolutely sure that the tube is sitting very tightly on the arrow, don't use it b/c initial acceleration might set the thing off.
simply RED November 20th, 2003, 01:06 PM

Melting AP is the stupidest thing from them all.
Its more stupid than trying to make VX at home.
xyz November 20th, 2003, 08:11 PM
The palestinian suicide bombers manage to successfully melt AP most of the time. I think they use a hot water bath.
But they know that they are going to blow themselves up at a later date anyway.
Some Guy November 21st, 2003, 05:50 PM

Is it a know n fact that the Palestinians are melting their AP or is everyone just going off of the w aronline site? Personally, I fell that melting 5kg of AP would reduce the number
of Palestinian "chemists" to zero in a number of months. A few Jewish papers say that Hamas has developed (as if its difficult) a way to produce and mold AP, but I don't know
if this is within their capabilities. Does anyone know for sure?
xyz November 21st, 2003, 07:40 PM

I have heard that they melt it to increase density/VoD and therefore destructive capability.
Like I said, they would use a hot water bath to heat it. The w ater is 100C, AP melts at 91C, and it goes off at about 120C. Because the water is cooler than the detonation
temp of AP, theoretically it shouldn't go off, but in practice, molten AP is a hell of alot more sensitive than normal AP crystals and far more prone to accidental detonations. They
know they only have a w eek to live anyw ay.
bobo November 21st, 2003, 08:37 PM

I find it strange to use AP for main charge because AN should be easily available. If you have AN you can at least make APAN for medium sized explosions. Likely the detonators
are AP though.
Probably, the media people just are clueless about the explosive manufacture.
McGyver November 22nd, 2003, 03:15 AM

You think the government is going to let the media say on the news "...the explosive that detonated was 2kg of Acetone Peroxide..." They rarly mention anything related to
how and what the explosive w as.
Cyclonite November 22nd, 2003, 07:02 AM

You cant compare AP to VX, if you melt and cast it remotely or in small amounts its no big deal. Its not safe, but certainly less hazardous in a waterbath. I will admit I w ould
never melt more than 1g for fear of my own life and limb.
Cyclonite March 22nd, 2004, 12:12 AM

I was using a hot w ater bath to melt AP into a 2" section of brass piping. I did this remotely and It worked, but my question is the water turned blue and the cap spew ed up
some AP...why? I thought It was going to blow but it didn't......Other than that it worked great, I was able to achieve a very high density w ithout a press. All I did was boil some
water pour it into a plastic cup and set the cap in after it cooled to about 95C.
Myrol March 24th, 2004, 10:49 AM

Some days ago i tried it also to melt some AP. I used a Test Tube filled w ith 0,2g AP and a Waterboiler as a heating source. But after some time the AP starts to vaporize out of
the Tube and forms only a tiny puddle of molten AP, 40% are gone! Im sure it w as not Dimeric AP because i made my AP ever around 10C. But melting 5kilos AP trough a
Palestinan is REALLY a suicidal act unfortunately its that what they want :mad:
Myrol March 30th, 2004, 12:11 PM

I had an Idea about melting and casting AP at relatively "safe" Temperature! The 50/50 mix of AP and MEKP is a uniform liquid at 25C, right? BUT a mix of 25% MEKP and
75% AP should be solid at standard Temperatures but liquid at probably 50C! Thats worth to try, because crystal-density AP has a much better performance as the fluffy
Product! Lowering the Temperature should be also good to prevent vaporizing off and losing worthful AP! I have enough AP and MEKP but not (more) enough time! One week
and i can manage it ;) ;)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Acetone Peroxide/Aluminium
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Mr. Yuck October 5th, 2003, 12:19 PM

I've noticed that the addition of Aluminium to Acetone Peroxide has improved it's performance significantly. In the below link, you can see what I have done with 20g of 5%
AP/AL. *Was detonated by a 1/2g AP cap. The blast was rather impressive for the size of the charge, which was a half filled beef jerky container. You will notice the flash. 20g
of straight Acetone peroxide would have detonated with some smoke and a bang the would sound similar to a high powered rifle, with no flame or flash. I realize that this
composition is very Oxygen deficient, being that acetone peroxide is alreadly lacking Oxygen. This charge had no problem borrowing the nessisary O2 from the Atmosphere. It
could even be balanced with something like NH4NO3. I question the stability of a composition of adding a slighly acidic salt to AP in the presence of Al.
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/AP_Al20gweb.wmv
Here is what I have posted on my website about this. Includes a summary of what happens in the next video.
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/apal.htm
Next I have done test on small amount of each AP, and AP/Al. You'll notice the result is quite that of the oppisite as the 20g charge above. I believe the AP/Al detonated, but
that is questionable. The AP/Al has NO FLAME and seems to be much quicker. On the contrary, the AP has a nice ball of fire. The AP/Al has only a quick, almost silent, "fizzing"
sound. In the video, ( http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/apaltests.wmv ).
Shot #1
-1gram of AP. Nice fireball, and a brief "whoof". No detonation.
Shot #2
-2grams of AP. /Al. A quick, flameless, "brisancefull" detonation. The powder seemed to instantly disappear with a small puff of smoke.
Shot #3
-Same thing as Shot #2, but with a bit more.
Shot #4
-3grams of plain AP. Bigger fireball than #1, but no detonation.
Shot #5
-3grams of AP/Al. This was a close-up, showing the detonation in better detail.
A friend of mine, (Blindreeper), brought it up that when he put a piece of paper on a small pile of AP, it has a loud BANG!, it detonated...
I still think that the AP/Al detonated because such a small amount of any primary explosive that is detonated WITHOUT CONFINEMENT, wouldn't make a noticable bang. These
small amount haven't reached the thresehold where they provide enough confinement under they're own weight. I realized that these are not low explosives and and do not
rely on compression to make a successfull deflagration with report. They are infact HEs, that do not require confiment. But they are primaries, in low densities, and they do not
achieve a high VOD at all. In fact, these tests probably resulted in somewhere between deflagration and detonation.
I conclude that with larger amounts, AP/Al will cosiderably more velocity upon detonation as compared to plain AP.

I dont know why AP/Al would improve things at all, I dont even understand how Al could get oxidized in that comp:confused: . AP/AN/Al would be good indeed IMHO. Very high
energy in Joules.
Mr. Yuck October 5th, 2003, 09:07 PM

For one, it is a lot hotter and faster in my opinon; it is better for detonators. Almost works like a thermobaric bomb. And if your going to use Acetone peroxide, you might as
well use Acetone Peroxide/Aluminium given the advantages. AP/AN/Al works very well, I used 80%AN,15%AP, and 5% AL. It sounded very similar to AN/Al. The APANAL had no
flash or flame. I suspect all of the Al was consumed and reacted.
The Aluminium was oxidized by atmospheric O2. This is very similar to a Zinc/Sulfur reaction where there is no oxidizer in the comp. RDX uses atmospheric oxygen initially
when it detonates.

I know that it would use atmospheric O2 but i thought taht the AP would use it all up first, obviously not.
DBSP October 6th, 2003, 08:36 AM

Why don't you try putting a plastic bag with gasoline ontop of an APAl charge. Would be nice to see if it's hot enugh to ignite the gasoline, straight AP isn't.
Guerilla October 6th, 2003, 12:11 PM

The Aluminium was oxidized by atmospheric O2. This is very similar to a Zinc/Sulfur reaction where there is no oxidizer in the comp.
Well not quite so, Zn/S is a redox mix where sulfur acts as an oxidizer and zinc as a fuel.

Originally posted by Mr. Yuck
RDX uses atmospheric oxygen initially when it detonates.
So RDX won't detonate underwater?
Adding metal powders to an explosive raise the heat of detonation, and the gas volume so you get more "heaving" power. However, IIRC the VoD is lowered, reducing
brisancy.
anthracis October 10th, 2003, 10:13 AM

In the past I've made a few small shaped charges, using about 1.5-3g of AP or HMTD (gently pressed inside plastic caps taken from mechanical pencils)...I've realised that
HMTD was more effective, such small charges could bore a round hole (about 4mm in diameter) in a steel coin (about 1mm in thickness). I've never mixed the primary with Al,
but this could be done.
On the other hand, my guess is that a mixture of HMTD/Al will be more powerful that AP/Al, and I guess it's not less stable. What do you think?

Don't forget about HMTDs compatibility issue with metals before considering mixing it with metal powders!
gliper October 11th, 2003, 05:41 PM
As with sulfer zinc mentened before carbon acts as an oxidizer with al (S and C have the same electro negativity of 2.5 and al is lower on that scale than zink). Additionaly 1/2
as many moles of carbon will be needed. Less heat will be made than oxagen oxidizing. finaly Al will pull O away from H2O ext.
Al actualy improves the O deficienty.

Would AP not react with aluminium? I have a friend who is 100% sure it will react. I am not sure to believe him so I am asking here. I dream about making detonators with
aluminium tubing and I'm sure other members dream about making them aswell. So is it safe?
me234 October 13th, 2003, 10:53 AM

AP and alluminium do not react, I have had a 50g charge of AP/KNO3/Al sitting in my fridge for about a month or so now, so far the mixture has kept very well. Maybe HMTD
with Al, in fact most likely HMTD with Al, but Acetone Peroxide seems to have had no effect on the storage of AP as of yet.
0EZ0 October 14th, 2003, 10:57 AM

blindreeper, my only guess would be that this 'friend' of yours had rather unwashed or still wet AP. Both a strong acid (HCl or H2SO4) and a strong oxidiser (H2O2) are used in
it's manufacture. It's quite likely that enough corrosive contaminant remained (even after supposed washing) with the AP after manufacture to attack Al. It would not be the
first time that someone has mentioned a similar experience with their AP eating at metal. That or your 'friend' is full of you know what ;).
As is also known, AP is the most widely produced explosive peroxide by young amateurs with little very limited knowledge of proper procedures and safety. It would be no
surprise that your friend skimped on a few important steps. Not to say that all the members here who dream it up fall into that category :).
As for Al or other metal tubing for det casings when using AP, stick to paper and plastic. That way if you do have such a misfortune in one of your dreams, then you are not
going to wake up screaming from the fragments of Al that have been impregnated into your hands/face/eyes or other part of your body. It is an unnecessary risk to use metal
tubing. Don't let the 'professional-look' finish fool you.
Regarding me234's post, I'm not even going to start. You should know better than to store such a mix for ANY length of time! May I advise ALOT of reading/researching for you
to do.
me234 October 15th, 2003, 01:44 AM

OEZO, don't worry, I am aware of the danger of storing such an explosive for such a long time, I just haven't found a use for it yet, I will be using it this weekend however.
Just so you know, it scares the living shit out of me every time I walk past that fridge, I have been very careful when it comes to that particular pill bottle. Anyway, storing it
this long has been interesting in that it was useful to know how well this particular mix kept, It'll also be nice to see if the storage time has had any diminishing effects on the
power of the charge. But thank you for your concern.
deadsexy October 15th, 2003, 02:27 AM

Me234 I think you have a death wish, storing AP for a month, with other chemicals, in a closed bottle, wow. I don't know what you are going to do with it, personally I
wouldn't touch it. But since you have to take every safety precaution you know of. Where some really thick gloves like heavy leather ones and a face shield for gods' sake.
I had about 6 grams AP still on the filter from the end of the synth for 3 weeks. I know it wasn't right to do this but I just had no real use for it. It had formed big crystals, it
was obviously the dimeric form. The biggest crystals were about 1mm by 1mm. I decided to dispose of it by putting a flash polumna on top of it. The flames from the fuse of
the polumna set off the AP before the polumna went off, the AP went straight through the DDT. No fireball at all like normal, it was a very loud bang and threw the polumna
closer to me. The AP did quite some damage to the ground below it and I now know never to store AP this long. After witnessing its power unconfined I will now treat it with a
whole new respect. As for you, good luck and make sure you read every precaution you should take with an explosive before you make it.
Third_Rail November 6th, 2003, 01:34 PM

I've actually had a problem with Mg reacting with AP 'slightly', even though the AP was neutralized completely...

You could try coating the Al in an oil or something to make sure it doesn't react.
metal dragon December 22nd, 2003, 05:27 AM

Boil it in parafin wax, or coat it in linseed oil.
Bert December 22nd, 2003, 06:41 PM

Classic treatment for Mg in contact with oxidizers is a drying oil, such as linseed oil or a 50:50 mix of linseed & castor oils. Another even more effective coating used in
particular where in contact with ammonium perchlorate ("the other AP!") is dichromate, applied by boiling the Mg powder in a potassium dichromate solution.
Mr. Yuck December 25th, 2003, 01:23 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/mr.yuck/SC.wmv
That is a small shaped charge containing 6g of AP/AN/Al. It was detonated by one gram of pressed HMTD. I used the explosive itself as the cone. This may sound funny, but I
pressed this charge into a Baby Bottle Pop lid of my neise's. This looks like a cone about 1 1/2in. high and 1 1/4in. wide. I made a paper cone to put inside of this cap to create
a conical hollow spot in the charge. It was mounted on a flattened split piece of 2 1/2 exhaust pipe. When it detonated, it folded the pipe in half, to about 40*, and blew a
2in.x1 1/2in hole. I will have a picture of the damage shortly. I apologize for the bad footage, my cousin video taped it while I lit it and ran.
Nihilist_666 January 1st, 2004, 02:16 PM

In the AP/AL tests to me it looks like the Al isn't doing anything else than suppressing the flame. The scratch just sounds like Al shooting over the paper and the smoke is just
fine dust.
Have you tried a small AP/Al salute on its own?
Mr. Yuck January 2nd, 2004, 02:22 AM

That makes sense but given any confinment it flashes, as in the 1st video; whereas any amount of pure AP in confinement would have no flash, obviously. Also, in several
unrecorded tests, I made 2 identical 2gram AP caps, one containing Aluminium, the strait AP cap was far inferior to the other. The tests were done in a shed, on a cardboard
box.
xyz January 2nd, 2004, 06:14 AM

Suppressing the flame? What blasphemy do you speak?
Aluminium INCREASES the heat production (or "flame") of explosives, and AP normally detonates with no noticeable heat or flame or flash.
Please have at least some idea what you are talking about before you post things.
Mr. Yuck January 5th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Here are the pics of the mangled pipe after it experienced my linerless shaped charge.
http://community.webshots.com/album/69396145NJpQUh/1

Mr. Yuck-
Looked at your gallery. Care to take a moment and discuss your black match over in the pyrotechnics section? I don't think there's a thread dedicated to the subject yet. Or if
you don't want to start a thread, maybe add it to the new home made fuse thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=2628&highlight=blackmatch) or some other ignition related thread.
I do think black match should rate it's own "thread" (haha).
BTW, most commercial black match carries a more substantial coating of BP than yours appears to- To the point where it would crack off if rolled as tightly as you have done to
yours.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP with CrO 3 ?
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Im not really proficient in chem istry bu t I was thinking that acetone and CrO3 might turn out some thing of interest. Also I will
try and use CrO3 as a catalyst. Ill let you know of the results. Am I way off base on this?
W h e n I d i d s o m e s e a r c h i n g t h e o n l y c o m p o u n d I c a m e up with was Triam i n e C h r o m e T e t r o x i d e , T h e r e i s a l a c k o f i n f o r m ation

on this explosive
"Materials: C rO3, H2O2, NH4O H

P r o c e d u r e : P r e p a r e a 1 0 % a q u e o u s s o lution of amm o n i a ( 2 5 m l ) a n d a 5 0 % a q u e o u s s o l u t i o n o f C rO 3 (5m l). Mix these
solutions and cool to 0C. Add 5m l of 30% H2O 2 drop by drop. Let the m ixture stand in the ice bath for an hour. Crystals of
a m monium dichromate will ap pear. He at the m ixture to 50C, m a i n t a i n t h e t e m p e r a t u r e u n t i l t h e e v o l u t i o n o f g a s e s h a d
stop ped and the salt had fully dissolved. Upon cooling, triam ine chrom e tetroxide will crystallize. Filter out the crystals,
squeeze off the excess liquid and wash with ether. Dry over KOH in a desiccator. Yield app rox. 0.3g. Partially decom p o s e s i n
water. Explodes on strong heating (approx. at 170C). Edit/Note: Maybe this is nonsensical/wrong/dangerous, any com m ents
welcom e!"
Lagen
Sarevok October 9th, 2003, 12:43 AM

P e r h a p s y o u c a n u s e C r O 3 a s a n o x i d i z e r i n s t e a d o f H 2 O 2 to m ake AP. But I don't think only CrO 3 and acetone will yield
s o m ething.
T h i s t r i a m i n e c h r o m e t e t r o x i d e s y n t h e s i s s o u n d s r e a s o n a b l e , b u t who knows? At first, do it on a sm all-scale to avoid risks.
P l e a se, where did you found this information? I never heard of this explosive before. Sounds good!
vulture October 9th, 2003, 06:21 AM

DON'T EVER MIX CrO 3 with som ething remotely flam m a b l e !
It's a very potent oxidizer which is hypergolic with alm ost everything!
CrO3, just like PbO 2, is NOT a peroxide, contra ry to popular belief.

P e r o x i d e s h a v e t h e - O - O - b o n d , C r 6 + c a n b i n d 3 o x y g e n a t o m s without the need for a peroxy bond!
me234 October 9th, 2003, 12:12 PM

I would have to agree with vulture here, CrO3 is well documented in relation to accidental fires and explosions, in one case a
fire was started because som e o n e l e f t a f u n n e l t h a t h a d b e e n u s e d w i t h s o m e oil or another on top of a drum of C rO 3 . S o m e
chemists I know were recently doing th erm ite reactions with the stuff, it is nasty shit, anything flam mable or reducable would
m ost likely react, esp ecially liquids or anything that is likely to begin decom posing by itself.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C yclotriacetone Peroxide???
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View Full Version : Cyclotriacetone Peroxide???
PunkMOnk Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 3 , 0 2 : 4 3 P M
Acco rding to http://www.angelfire.com/goth/celtick/AP.html
I should be obtain CTAP from H2O2, Acetone, HCl, Sodium Bicarbonate, Distilled W ater.
IF this is true and if i DO obtain C TAP, how should i kee p it safe? I really need help on this.
It says that this m aterial is responsible for m ost m aim ing in the U.S. due to its sensitivity (friction, heat, etc.)
Anyone not new to CTAP who can give m e a d v i c e ? P l e a s e e - m a i l m e at:

d e s p e r a d o j i m m y_outkast@hotmail.com
and no bullshit please. You can really m a k e m e d i e i f y o u e - m a i l m e t h e wrong stuff.
So should I bind CTAP with...?

Or should I just keep it wet? Like RDX...
And where should I store this?

Should it be cool/dry bla bla?
Does it take in water after awhile?

Does it spontaneously explode?
Thanks all-
knowledgehungry Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 3 , 0 2 : 5 1 P M
UTFSE! CTAP IS THE MO ST TALKED ABOUT COMPOUND HERE! GO D I E Y O U G O O D C H A R L O T T E L O VING, LOAD SWALLOW ING
PIECE O F SHIT! And don't worry about getting hurt from bad dire ctions, because if we sent them to you I doubt you would
follo w them seeing as you cant even follow the sim plest rules!
Sarevok Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 3 , 0 3 : 0 2 P M
This is usually reffere d to as "Aceton P eroxide". Use the Search button and try to search for "Aceton AND Peroxide".
You don't keep it safe, you use it. It m ust be dry, lest it will not detonate. It does not spo n t a n e o u s l y e x p l o de, but it
decomposes, given tim e.
You can m ake a pipe bom b using aceton peroxide. Put the aceton perox ide inside a pipe, press it and close the ends of the
pipe u s i n g a h a m m er. Don't forget to insert the fuse.
Rhadon Novem b e r 2 2 n d , 2 0 0 3 , 0 3 : 0 7 P M
Too late, Savorek, he's already banned. Yes, they com e and go fast these days... :D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > exploding Bridgewire dets
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telecard December 1st, 2003, 03:24 AM

I thought i would start a new thread on bridge wire dets as i cant seem to find much info on the concept on the web (Check the
risi site, it give some tech info). I was wondering if ne one has ever done it. I am looking at giveing it a try once i can make
up some more petn. I am planning on using a .97uf cap @ 4kv to power the system.
Tuatara December 1st, 2003, 04:07 AM

How are you planning to switch 4kV? Thyristor stack? That'll be fun to drive.
telecard December 1st, 2003, 04:34 AM

i wish, the scr s neccesary would cost in the excces of 150$, no i think i would have 2 find another way. But it think it would be
worth it just as well as there would then be no need 4 making ne pimary explosives, i dred loosing another finger. :-(
Boomer December 1st, 2003, 10:19 AM

Thanks for saving me from starting a new threat as a newbie! Exploding Bridge Wire caps (EBW caps) have been one of my
main interests lately. I just add some first results here for comments (Tuatara, Jumala, any more EEs here?).
1. Cap
Years before learning here that such things exist, I tried to make caps without primaries, as most are not storage stable
(peroxides) or can only be handled in smallest amounts (Ag2C2, silver fulminate etc.). I had repeatedly been startled by the
power of a big cap discharging. Even a small photo flash has approx. 100.000 watts for a microsecond. So I took the biggest
cap I had (500V/2200uF) and shorted it, first with wires, but I soon found it was louder using resistors of 1-3 Ohms. The
carbon film goes plasma and stays conductive, pulverising the ceramic body and even cracking parts near it! I took 1g of MHN
in an aluminium pipe, with a 0.5W / 2.2 Ohm carbon resistor in the middle, soldered to thick wires, then epoxied the ends
closed. When I held the cable ends to the charged cap, I got a full det (pipe pulverised).
2. Blasting Machine
The problem was to find a switch for 2500 Amps / 500 Volts (Ri,cap = 0.1 Ohm plus 2 x 20m of 4mm cable). You can use
flash tubes as a switch, but they convert much of the energy to light. In the end I built a relay from metal bars and a big
electro-magnet, powered by another, smaller cap (220uF/400V). The machine has a step-up circuit similar to a photo flash,
and a flash tube to trigger the big 'relay'. I always trigger by hand, because I have nightmares of children walking past the
charge while the timer runs / fuse burns, and I cannot disable it from where I sit! 20 meters is sufficient for up to 1kg of ANFO
if you have cover and military ear plugs.
3. Small Blasting Machine for simplified caps
To make the thing more portable/concealable, I downsized it using an SMD CCFL driver, four diodes and a single capacitor
(100uF/400V). It fits into a cigarette box including a 9V battery and a hand-operated switch (= insulated screws with a spring-
loaded shorting bar)!
It will not detonate MHN with a resistor, but can be used for small Christmas bulbs (3x3 mm) with 50 mg HMTD inside a one-
gram-cap of MHN. Peak current is 300 Amps, reached after 20 microseconds. Time inconsistency is +/-10 microseconds, thus
they can be u sed to set of charges simulta n e o u s ly in rock etc. but not for o p p o s e d charges in cutting s teel. Ind ustrial EBW
caps are accurately timed to +/- 0.025 0.25 microseconds!
4. Improving time consistency and making HMTD redundant
My goal is to make caps without primaries that vary only 1-2 microseconds (equals 1/2 inch at VoD 7 km/s). MHN needs 4cm
x 2kg = 0.8 Joules in the drop test. To be reliable I want ten times that. Assuming just one quarter of the energy is
dissipated in the arc from the bridge wire, the ca p mus t hold 32 Joules. This leads to 400uF/400V, or better 4 x 100 uF to
reduce inductance. The bridge element must be very low resistance to reach peak current/plasma fast. This eliminates bulbs.
It must also concentrate the energy on a small spot. I am currently trying SMD resistors of 0.22 to 3.3 Ohms. Results will
follow, best till now is 5 microseconds rise time. TBC
P.S. Funny to be a newbie again after 20 ye ars of bla sting around .
Tuatara December 1st, 2003, 05:32 PM

I'd say the biggest trick is getting the resistance of the bridge wire to be at least 10 x the resistance of the lead wires.
Switching 2500 A can be done with a 100A thyristor. Most thyristor ratings are based on continuous load conditions, not the
once a day kind of pulse you want for det. It does work, I've done it in a commercial product. I had an 85 A 1200V thyristor
($NZ65) switching 2000A, 100us pulses, at a rate of once every 1.5seconds . I've still got one of those thyristor beasties
kicking around somewhere - sort of an unofficial bonus from when I left the company:D
The next tricky bit is getting really low impedance caps. That means low ESR and low ESL. Lots of little caps can be better that
one big one, if connected up the right way. These parameters are somewhat beyond control if you are relying on scavenging
for parts - but photoflash caps are a good bet.
After playing with the arc out of the electric fence energiser I designed I wonder if the arc alone would be sufficient to use as a
det. No bridge wire - just the two lead wires with a small gap filled with explosive. A high voltage arc fired through the explosive
would heat and vapourise the compound in microseconds, especially if it was backed up by a 50-100 Joule cap bank. Certainly
firing the arc underwater was always impressive. Now I think about it, thats how lithotripters generate shockwaves for smashing
kidney stones.
You'd do it the same way a fence energiser works - caps charged to 600v or so. Thyristor switches caps into a low impedance
step-up transformer to give at least 5kV on the output for the arc. It could be an autotransformer as we don't need safety
isolation from the power source.
Damn - so many ideas and so little time ...
Boomer December 2nd, 2003, 08:26 AM

Tuatara, after some oscilloscope tests I think the bridge wire resistance in not so important: The short circuit current pulse of
the cap looks roughly like the surge pulse of IEC 400x, 1-5 microseconds rise time and 30 microseconds duration (instead
of 1,2/50). If you use a bulb of some Ohms with a 300V cap, you see a short pulse of 30A (5s) followed by a nearly perfect
pulse (300A/30s) directly after. The first pulse is the evaporation of the wire, its current is Vcap/Rwire, it takes little total
charge. The second pulse is much higher and has most of the energy. It seems the arc where the wire evaporated/exploded
is much lower in impedance than the wire was. You can prove this by taking 1206 resistors of 2R2, 4R7, and 15R. The first
p e a k s are then 150A, 60A and 20A, wh ile the secon d pulse is close to the cap s short circu it pulse!
Your fence energiser idea is like the stun gun people here used to set of AP. I tested that too, but even with electrolytics of
some 100uF discha rged into the coil, the arc only ignited the surro unding explosive, that s p robably why it on ly works with AP.
Maybe with a bank of caps and a bigger coil it would work? But then you need a wire for 10kV or more, perhaps on wet
ground but try it and tell me a bout the results.
P.S. Funny to be a newbie again after 20 ye ars of bla sting around .(Maybe I can forget this sentence now afte r 10 posts)
Tuatara December 2nd, 2003, 05:17 PM

A wire for 10kV is easy. Most people don't realise that plain old RG59 coax cable will handle 20kV with ease. Thats the kind of
cable used for TV aerials (the round stuff, not the flat ribbon).
What you've said about the vapourising wire makes a great deal of sense. That means it is even more imperative that the
lead wires be a really low resistance. Can you measrue the voltage across the arc at the same time? Then we could get a
rough idea of the arc impedance and try for a better match.
Boomer December 3rd, 2003, 12:42 PM

Hi, after some more oscilloscope tests I can give you some waveforms. The problem is I have not found out how to put
graphics or pictures into the text here (like Axt s SC thread), so I will have to de scribe it (compon ent va lues from my last 2
post, with 10 m cable 2x1.5mm):
The current rises to Vcap/Rbridgewire instantly (scope resolution), stays there for a time t1, then jumps to near the short circuit
current of the cap and lead wires (300A), and drops exponentially with the fall time tf=50s). The voltage is 300V for the first
period, drops within 3-5s to 50V at the instant the current jumps up, and then stays nearly constant until the arc stops. The
only variable is t1. It is <3s for 1R/1206 and grows linear with the resistance. It is ca. 5s for 3R3, 20s for 10R, 50s for
22R and also 50s for a Christmas bulb. (With the bulb the current stops before the cap is fully discharged, so I will stay with
resistors.)
T h i s m e a ns two things: Firstly we need a bridge wire resista nce as low as possible (1R) to have the arc start fast an d with
little delay variation. Secondly the arc voltage is 45V for 20A and 50V for 300A. It will not get much higher even with a much
bigger cap, only the current increases. Thus the power is approx. 50V * cap current or 50V * 300V/ (Ri,cap+Rcable), dropping
with the current. The initial power density is 50V*300A / (area of resistor) = 750kW for 1*2mm (1206).
In the Fibre Optics Detonator threat a value of 12MW is quoted for PETN initiation. With MHN having 1/5 the drop test value, I
guess it will require ca. 2MW. Therefore a 470F cap will do, especially if loaded to 450V. This method might even need less
energy per area, as we already have heat and a mechanical pulse from the exploding resistance film, while the laser pulse
first has to be converted to heat, and this to a pressure pulse.
I will try this soon and let you know!
BLASTER December 3rd, 2003, 05:13 PM

The key for working EBW - 1kA current rise in less than 1us in EBW circuit
few hints how reach this:

- low inductance capacitors - ideal are "snubber" caps used in power SCR circuits, best two in parallel to divide parasitic
inductances by half (2x 0.47uF rated at 2500V)
- use of coaxial cable
- superfast switching circuit, use of SCR's impossible - too slow switching
best (and used) is triggered sparkgap called trigatron, look in google for some references of this device
- also good power source - good compromise is DC to AC converter working at some 10kHz at least, also with voltage
multiplier 250V to 2000V, of course use of fast diodes in multiplier
Tuatara December 3rd, 2003, 07:50 PM

One can build a triggered spark gap readily enough. And the switching speed can be improved by filling the gap with hydrogen.
Another option if you want to stay solid-state is to use a saturating inductor pulse compressor. It is possible to sharpen a
pulse rise time from 100us to 10ns with one of these things. The you could use a thyristor switch.
One could also use an IGBT. A GA200SA60U handles 400A pulse with a rise time of just 75ns. $225 from Farnell, so not
exactly a cheap option! Maybe multiple parallel lower current ones?
Edit: Just found this fantastic page explaining EBWs and EFIs (http://www.risi-usa.com/0products/8td/page01.html)
telecard December 4th, 2003, 05:18 AM

These may not be very usefull but i got some shots(http://bridgewire.8m.com) captured @ 30 fps of 2 instances of an
exploding resistor. As can be seen the resistor remains intact on resistor**bang test and only a small burnt out hole forms.
The other test just overexposes the frame and i get a blank frame. The tests i carried out on a 400v 330uf charged to
320volts and contact made via a heavy duty relay i aquired from a microwave. I am working on an array, parralel, all charged
to 320v of a mixture of caps exceeding 150uf@ 330volts+ and i found an src i can use will try it out sometime in the near
future.
EDIT
Dont take notice of the basktball crap, jus free hosting
Dunkelmann December 4th, 2003, 06:39 AM

A very interesting text on Detonators and EBWS can be found at
http://www.risi-usa.com/0products/8td/page01.html
have fun!
Boomer December 4th, 2003, 01:09 PM

I conducted some more oscilloscope tests to se e current waveforms. W ith electrolytic caps at rectified mains you don t get
under 5s rise time, even at 1000F with peak currents approaching 1kA. This means you get 200-300A after 2s. After
adding some foil caps (MKP, 3x3.3F/X2) I got the waveforms described in the risi website mentioned above. The current
jumps to 500A in 0.5s, then makes a short drop and rises again more slowly to 800A. BTW I found that 3.3R/1206 need
10s to evaporate the resistance material at 100A before any further rise is possible, therefore I switched to 0R1/1206 which
do not limit the current (it is limited by Rcap + Rleadwire).
For a fast switch, why not parallel some MOSFETS? We use IRF types with 130A peak current in TO247, they cost only 3 $.
For 30 $ you can get a switch handling 1300 Amps, at switching times in the order of 100ns. Driving 20A into the gates can
be done with a simple P-MOSFET for a buck. Sp ark gaps aren t always that fast, I once b uild one for 8kV, it need ed 2-3s to
switch 1kA.
The 2MW I estimated were also mentioned on that page, but for PETN instead of MHN. Thus I am positive MHN caps will work
with 0R1/1206 and two 220/450V caps with three 3.3 foil caps to support the first peak. The explosion of the resistor is very
loud and you feel a shockwave and some painful particle spray on your hand 4 inches away.
I will make such caps this evening with only 100mg of MHN in brass caps. This way they can be tested in my room, inside a
big steel pipe, wrapped in cloth and some old blankets, with a wooden box around all. It is easy to see if the MHN
detonated, it pulverises the metal cap body, and if you take more than a quarter gram, you get dents in the steel pipe, and
it g ets too loud for ind oors if you ve got neighbours next floor.
R e s u lts coming soon

Maybe you could use a Transistor or a Diode in a metal TO39-Case, ie 2N2219, if you remove the top.
Inside you have the Die, connected with very thin bonding wires made out of gold, maybe this could be used as an OTC
Bridgewire. Just fill in your explosive, and there you go..
Tuatara December 6th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Better still, take the top off a TR5 or TR3 style fuse (http://www.wickmann.com/html/ptr5.html) and fill that with PETN or
whatever. At least fuses will be consistant from one to the next.
Incidently Dunkelmann, that link you posted is the same as the one I posted - check next time, eh?
The thing that really interested me on that site was that they were suggesting that EBWs could be detonated with only 2 joules.
Thats really not very much, considering your average throw-away photoflash stores about 12J. Obviously the trick is to get that
energy into the bridgewire at a colossal rate. The RSI website describes it in terms of getting the wire vapourised, while still
confined by its own inertia. This suggests to me that the bridgewire metal should be of low specific heat, and low boiling point.
Aluminium?

Sorry, must have overlooked your link.
In the Risi-Document they say that they use Gold for Bridgewires, which made me think of the Bonding Wires.

That might be for corrosion resistance, since the dets they make are likely to be stored for some time before use. I can't think
of any other justification for using something as pricey as gold. Or maybe the inertial confinement works better because gold
atoms are heavy.
Boomer December 8th, 2003, 05:44 AM

IT WORKS !!!
3 x 470F charged by rectified mains (325V), discharged into 0R1/1206. With the resistor in the end of a 5mm i.d. stainless
steel pipe (0.5mm walls), followed by 100mg MHN, other end open with only some tissue, I got a partial det (pipe blown to
twice its diameter). With the resistor in the middle of 150mg MHN, and the cap crimped, it was a full det (pipe was completely
fragmented). The tests were conducted inside of water pipes to keep the fragments of the cap for inspection. When the last
tes t was repeated with 400mg, the wate r pipe around the cap was split an d fractured ! Thank God this had b een in still
another 1 pipe, capped and wra pped in lots of cloth, inside a wooden box full of pillo ws, in my bedroom . The interes ting
thing is , that though it wrecked the steel pipe, there was hardly any sound outside the box, just a muffled plo p ! This
meth od saves a lot of time, you don t nee d a hole in the groun d, no 12-240 Volts converter, no digging and no running
home and returning every time. Just stay b elow gram . BTW a 1 pipe from a bicycle is co mpletely severed by a 1-gram cap,
even if both ends are open. Nice way to demonstrate the power of BCs.
In further tests it must be investigated whether the current rise time is really so critical. It was around 5s with only the
electrolytic caps. Maybe foil types at a higher voltage need much less capacitance. At 1.5kV, 2 joules equal only 2 F, while at
300V it is 50F. And this is NOT enough with electrolytics, I only got deflagration with so small capacitors. But to speed up
Christmas bulb detonators, 47F/400V per BC is good to fire simultaneous charges. The delay between the shots is much
smaller than at 9 Volts, only for e.g. cutting steel with opposed charges it will be insufficient.

Excellent! What did you use for a switch? Did you still have the foil caps supporting the electros?
For those buying foil caps for this job, be aware the not all foil caps are suitable. You must buy pulse rated caps, otherwise
they will spit the dummy under these high discharge conditions. What seems to happen is the connection on the end of the
foil metalisation gets burned away (i've dissected a few in my time as an electric fence designer) and the cap becomes
useless.

I had a look into the box again, it were in fact electrolytics of together 2000F without foil caps, giving 105J at rectified 230V
mains. Even this does sometimes cause only a partial det, and adding some F foil caps did not help. I wonder why with 50
tim es the required energy it is still not reliable? The switch was two copp er rods moved towards each other ma nually. Th is
sounds crude, but the current waveforms are very consistent. I will try a parallel MOSFET configuration soon, as SCRs are too
slow and do not withstand the rate of current rise.
In case it really is the current rise time, I prepared a second box with metallized foil types, 18 x 3.3F/275V/X2/MKP = ca.
60F total. I know these are not perfect for pulse applications, but film/foil caps like FKP1 mean 30 x the size and money!
The best results are achieved by putting them in two series groups of 9 each, giving 15F/550VAC = min. 1000 VDC peak
(X2 types hold more then SQR(2) times the AC value, they are tested with 1kV DC. In stun guns they are even used up to
this limit; I assume 500V for each to stay safe). The are charged via a variac with voltage doubler. The discharge sound is
much sharper, and the current rises to 1000A in 500ns, this is 2kA/s through 2x10m of loudspeaker cable! I will test this
box tonight at home with real BCs poor pipes and p illow box ..
Another thought is that the 1206-resistors are not as good as gold wires, though the current waveform is now very similar to
that given at the risi website, rising to 1kA in 500ns and falling to 800A in 500ns, then rising again more slowly to 1,2kA. If
the current drop signals the time the bridge material is vaporized but still hold in place by inertia, it has taken only 700C.
This equals 160mJ at approx. 230 Volts dropped above the resistor. Ergo only 8% of the required 2 Joules are put into the
exploding bridge, then 7.34 Joule are put into the arc. On the other hand they claim their EBWs to work from a minimum of
500V and 180A, which puts only 90mJ into the bridge wire in 1s before it explodes and the arc starts. It is easily imagined
that a 0.002 gold wire takes less energy than the 1mm x 2mm active surface o f a 1206 resisto r.
So with our total energy being 7.5J instead of 2J, and putting 160mJ instead of 90mJ into the bridge material, we should
expect this set-up to work 100%, especially with MHN being 5 times more (drop-)sensitive than PETN. Otherwise it is indeed
the shape of the bridge (i.e. gold wires instead of conductive surface) which makes risi s cap s work better! We will kno w
tomo rrow. By, Till then .

I think it may simply be that the 1206 resistor is spread into a thin film, where the solid wire is a narrow cylinder. So the whole
thing comes down to energy density. Bear in mind the fact that resistors are designed to dissipate heat, not blow up, and I
think it is obvious why resistors seem less reliable. Shame - they're so convenient!
Can you try the same trick with a bit of steel wool, or fine nichrome?
As for the switch - I see nothing wrong with slamming two chunks of copper together! Its probably a better switch than a spark
gap or MOSFETs;)

Did some more testing again, but this time after some thinking: It was wrong to think that the total energy of the cap counts
much! The discharge of electrolytic caps takes 50s, the bridge explodes after 2-4s at the current rise times reached with
these caps, and 99% of the energy comes later. One microsecond equals 5-9mm propagation of detonation, therefore the
detonation front is an average 2cm away from the bridge wire when the arc starts (!) to converts the other 99% of energy, and
it is through the whole main charge when the capacitor is discharged!
Keeping this in mind, plus the data from the risi website, I concentrated on the foil cap solution giving 1kA current, rising at
2kA/s. Measuring the voltage drop over the bridge, I found it is only a fraction of the available cap voltage, much more is
dropped over the lead wire s a nd the cap s i m p e d a nce. Increasing the resistance b ack to 3R3/1206 most of the voltage was
dropped over the bridge (1R would have been ideal though).
With these resistors I did three tests in the same manner as before (5mm stainless steel tube, 200mg MHN etc.) and had
three full dets!
Because the metallisation of the SMDs kept breaking at the solder joint either while pressing or even while bending the
external cable, I looked for something else and remembered the comment about the TR5 fuses. Being lazy, I first drilled a
small hole and filled them with NG. Had one success and two failures (plastic fuse body only split), proving what is said in
Josef Koehler, Rudolf Meyer Explo sives 4th ed ., i.e. about NG not detonatin g from a No1 in the lead block, while other nitro-
esters will. Using MHN again, I had success two consecutive times. I prepared 8 more of the caps, using from 250mA to 1.5A
fus es. If all these work, a med ium value will be tested further, as 10 out of 10 can very well still mean only 90% reliability.
When all goes well I will upload photos and schematics somehow.

Sorry it took so long, but I was busy. The pics will have to wait, it seems not that easy. But one thing I DID find out: The fuses
with a wire wound around an isolator never work: five duds out of five tests. The fuses with only a thin wire inside are more
promising: eight full dets out of eight tests. I got noticeable dents in the water pipe around the 250mg cap each time.
I ordered 100 TR5 fuses to see which value is best, and if it is consistent. They cost 25 Cent instead of 5 Cent for the
5 x 2 0 m m how unfair!
(could not edit)

Probably the fuses with the wire wound on a support are slow-blow or surge resistant types - not what you want for an EBW!

150nF , 3KV, flat, ultralow impedance. Self made with polyethilene and aluminium foil and very large flat leads.
It was originally built for resonant charging of a Blumlein switch, but I thought it might be worth doing some nice play with it.
The discharge peak power is around 100-300 MW. A thin aluminium wire 2cm long explodes with a bright flash and a sharp
crack when directly closing the circuit.
The same wire, when bound to paper sheet, cuts it in half with its shockwave.
The discharge itself, when happening inside a glass pipe filled with water, destroys the tube.
Longer leads are used in this case.
Please note: no explosives of any kind were used.
Risetime is essential, total energy being only a secondary factor.

For maximum output, a current risetime near or below 10ns is better.
Depending on the wire parameters, at such speeds the wire is subject to magnetic collapse:
the magnetic from high currents inside the wire generates an inward pressure which a few nanoseconds makes the wire
collapse on itself and heat much more than by simple inertial confinement.
A properly designed foil slapper won't work with 1us discharges. It needs properly designed
sparkgap switches, capacitors and impedance matching of discharge paths.
Now, the foil slapper concept is fascinating, to say the least.

Currently my capacitor won't help, tho. I think I'll have to scale it 10x.

Hi, sorry for my long 'holiday' but I was in hospital and am now typing with 7 fingers. NOT due to an EBW cap, an AP cracker
etc ... I cannot say if I stop completely, but I will probably limit my work to things without fuses/primaries. Maybe EBWs are my
field: insensitive plus me sitting on the other end of a long wire!
Inverse: foil slappers are the best there is, but for us 'normal' EBWs are the first goal IMO, I already got a design working with
standard electronic parts fore a few bucks.
P.S When my hand hurts less I will start a thread in the WC about what went wrong for me, and whether others had similar
(near-) accidents.

There's a thread in the watercooler called What has been your worst accident (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?s=&threadid=3297&perpage=50&pagenumber=2) Sorry to hear you got bit-
Blackhawk January 23rd, 2004, 08:07 AM

I have started my EBW detonator today, using the power supply for a cold cathode flurecent light (CCFL) and two 400V 330uF
electrolytic caps in series (as the CCFL inverter outputs 487V so the combined power handling of the caps would have to be
800V instead of 400V). I used a simple diode bridge to rectify the CCFL output, strangely enough on my multimeter (a crap
one btw) it appears the CCFL sends out pulses of energy every half second or so. I tested a 15sec charge period (to the caps)
today over a hair thin 2cm long length of copper wire, which vapourised instantly with a loud crack, I will try resistors tomorrow.
For switching I plan on simple two metal plate contact for now. Would Picric acid or Potassium Picrate be sensetive enough to
use in the EBW cap?
Blackhawk January 24th, 2004, 04:16 AM

Just a quick update, I have noticed that using two pieces of metal touching is definately not the best way of switching as when
attempting to fry objects with a resistance of around 1ohm or so the contacts spark and errode significantly without the resistor
being touched. I thought that I might use a MOSFET to drive the caps, I have one currently that is rated to 500V at 14A
continous, the device code is IRFP450, it is a HEXFET if that means anything (appart from cost :(). The data sheet states that
it's maximum pulsed drain current is 56A, I am wondering if this is somehow internally fused or safeguarded in any way so
that the max current would never pass this, also could this MOSFET stand discharging two non pulse rated electrolytic caps with
a charge of 400V 330uF through a load of around 3 ohms (so around 133A)?
Sorry about asking all these questions but when 'playing' with this kind of power I would like to be sure of what I'm doing.
EDIT: I have an SCR rated at 160A pulse so I will try this to trigger my circuit, I know that their triggering time is not optimal,
but at the moment using the two metal chunk method all of my energy with low resistance bridge wires is being eaten by
sparking, and high resistance bridges (such as lightbulbs) restrict current too much to accheive any decent explosion from the
wire.
powdermunkey January 25th, 2004, 12:21 AM

Blackhawk- there is no internal overcurrent protection (on cheap FET's). It'll fry pretty dam quick. One thing that is overlooked
often in EBW and slapper driver design is that the pulse impedance of the connecting wires is mismatched- i.e, 50 or 75 ohm
coax will not transmit a short pulse efficiently into a 10 ohm bridgewire. In my own experiments, I made a low impedance
transmission line by using two 1/8 inch wide conductors on the opposite sides of a piece of scotch tape. It makes a
transmission line with about 2.5 ohms impedance, and about 5 kV standoff. Fast risetimes are very important.
Yes, but if you do not need picoseconds, a loudspeaker cable will do. I managed to get 2000A/s i.e. approx. 1kA after 500ns
through 10m of 2 x 1.5mm cable. But forget about electrolytics (see my posts above). 15F MKP at 1kV gave reliable dets,
while several 470F electrolytic caps in parallel needed 2-5s to reach peak current. And forget about the mosfet, unless you
put 10 in parallel and build a driver that puts 10 Amps into the gates.
A last tip: go down with the bridge impedance. At 3 Ohms the current will start at 133A and stay there for a few s until the
bridge goes plasma. Then it jumps up to the short circuit rating of the caps + cable. I can mail you scope pictures if needed.
Thin wires below 1 Ohm are better (TR5 fuses even come with their own cap housing). Avoid those where the fuse wire is
wound around a glass fibre core, the naked wire type is better!
BTW, the idea behind an EBW is to avoid primaries completely. So PETN or MHN etc is the thing to use, not picrates or even
peroxides!
powdermunkey January 26th, 2004, 12:43 PM

Boomer- what kind of scope did you say you have? I was playing at the time with slapper type caps, using a .01 uF at 2kV.
The literature suggests a sub microsecond risetime, and I was about 10 meters down the cable, so a flat stripline was cheap
and easy. I was trying to directly detonate sensitized AN, with ambiguous results. Maybe I should make some RDX....

I used a digital storage scope from Fluke for some thousand bucks (company of course). And AN is impossible to initiate
with a slapper o r EBW, unless with sensitised yo u mean 50% NG!
About the choice of explosive: HNS and TNT are the hardest to get going, followed by RDX, PETN and ETN (in this order). The
easiest also concerning ma nufacture and precursors is probably MHN. It is 3 times more sensitive th an PETN, but still
considerably safer than primaries like fulminates or peroxides. It cannot explode from sparks or static, and takes a much
harder blow and mo re friction (probably b ecause the crystals kind of s m eer ). And it only deflagrates if h eated, u nles s at
>180C with confinement, or if boiled.
Another thing is that IMO slappers are even more sophisticated than EBWs, and harder to improvise. It is hard enough to
home-make reliable EBWs with a small, portable, 9V-battery operated B-box. The sub-microsecond rise time is also true for
norm al EBWs, m ine we re unreliable and n eeded thousands of F until I went beyond 1 kV, reaching at lea st 1kA in 500ns.
This calls for foil cap s or even be tter MICA pulse caps us ed in military e xploding foil in itiators for smart bombs.
The reason I speak so much about EBWs is that after my accident I cannot touch AP, HMTD or anything having a fuse without
pissing my pants. Maybe this will change again, but it is a sane attitude, which hopefully lets me grow old.
powdermunkey January 27th, 2004, 11:37 AM

I have a healthy fear of primary explosives, too. I am fond of aluminum sensitized AN because I can shoot it with my FAL and
get it to reliably detonate. It would be fun to have an option to detonate it directly. I guess I'll have to make some nitric acid
and try MHN. I have access to pulse rated caps of various sorts, so I think I'll play around a bit. I smacked a bit of AlAN with a
hammer on my anvil, and got it to explode, so I know it's at least theoretically possible to get it to go off with a slapper/EBW
device. Lots of room to experiment, for sure.

Has anyone considered spark-gap detonators ? I read a patent ( US 3955505 ) where the inventors used a discharge of a 0.1
uF capacitor charged to 5600 V across a gap of about 0.5 mm to detonate PETN or RDX.
The voltage could be reduced somewhat according to the patent, but does need to be quite high.

Has anyone considered spark-gap detonators ? I read a patent ( US 3955505 ) where the inventors used a discharge of a 0.1
uF capacitor charged to 5600 V across a gap of about 0.5 mm to detonate PETN or RDX.
The voltage could be reduced somewhat according to the patent, but does need to be quite high.

Powdermunkey: Interesting you made ANAL detonate with a hammer! It can hardly me THAT MUCH more sensitive than ANFO,
and IIRC this takes 400 cm*kg. What is FAL, Fulminate/ALuminium?
Y o u d o n t have to destill NA to make MHN. It can be made in a n hour (distributed over two days) from SA + AN, even without
an icebath an d much stirring, with cons idering the little work - de ce nt yields (>50%): Just look at my method in the MHN-
yield thread in the HE section. But if your fre ezer d oes not reach 25C in the colde st setting you be tter add the man nitol in two
portions with two hours between. I forgot to set my fridge to maximum power last time and had a nice runaway in a one-litre
(!) batch. Harmless but a smelly mess: I had to discard all my food. There was so much condensed nitric on everything, even
outside the freezer compartment, that I had to neutralise the cans to save at least the beer!
And Microtek: Yes, I tried this. I stepped the discharge of an electrolytic cap up from 300V/500A to 30 kV/5A using a
transformer. The spark was 1 cm long, going through the HE all the way. But probably due to the low current/slow rise time it
only worked with primaries.
powdermunkey January 28th, 2004, 01:05 PM

Heh- a FAL is the FN FAL (Fabrique Nationale Fusil Automatique Legier) 7,62X51 assault rifle. It fires a 149 grain projectile at
about 2700 feet per second. I put the sensitized AN in a plastic bottle and fire the rifle into it. It does take a pretty sharp blow
with the hammer to get it to detonate on the anvil. The hammer is about a half kilo, and I swing it from about two feet away,
with a sharp snap of the wrist. I'll look up the mhn-yield thread, thanks.
Microtek February 6th, 2004, 03:24 PM

I finally obtained a disposable camera with flash so I could use the capacitor and charging cirquit for a blasting box. I only had
one camera so just one capacitor, slightly smaller then an AA battery. The capacitor charged to 300 V, but I don't know any
other specs for it.
I experimented some with various types of NPE detonators ( exploding wire and foil, slapper, different configurations ), but all
of them failed. I then tried with more containment: A brass tube, 10 mm long, 6 mm OD, 5 mm ID with one end closed by a
thin layer of melt cast MHN/PETN/EGDN/NC. A little MHN was added ( ca 0.05 g ) and the bridge-foil assembly was inserted.
The bridge-foil consisted of a piece of cardboard about 5 mm in width and 20 mm long which had had a single piece of Al-foil
glued on in such a manner as to cover both sides. Before the glue had dried completely, some of the foil was cut away to
make sure that there would be no contact between foil and the brass tube. At one of the narrow ends of the cardboard ( the
one the foil was folded over ) some of the foil was cut away so that the remaining foil formed a 1 mm wide bridge right over
the fold.
As mentioned above, this assembly was inserted into the loosely packed MHN, a wad of wax was inserted on each side of the
cardboard, and finally the tube was sealed with epoxy.
When connected to a cable using a clothes pin ( to pin the stripped leads to either side of the cardboard ) and fired using the
flash cirquit, a partial ( or perhaps low order ) detonation was obtained.
The tube was unharmed, but the clothes pin was damaged by the explosion.
Following this, another test was made. This time the tube was turned from an Al rod. It had the same dimensions, but one
end was closed. 0.072 g MHN was packed loosely into the cap, and a bridge-foil assembly of the same type as before was
inserted. As before the open end was sealed with epoxy over wadding. When this was fired, a full detonation was obtained.
It should be noted that the cable was very short ( 1.5 m ) to eliminate attenuation of the electrical pulse.
lucifer February 22nd, 2004, 08:07 PM

For a EBW system I use a very low inductance 1500V 10 uF capacitor and charge it up to 1500V DC.
This capacitor is connected with a very big relays to the bridge wire.
This relays can handle up to several hundreds of Amperes.
For the bridge wire I use 0.1 mm copper wire, wich is also used for making transformers.
Closing the Relays will fire the EBW and will give a load explosion.
I Over-voltage the Relays so that it will close very fast and it will make a fast good contact.
I tested it with 0.2gr MHN and it worked, The MHN must have been detonated because the housing of EBW was completely
destroyed. (I tested it too without MHN inside and this time the housing stayed intact.)
I have one concern about this setup and this is how reliable will the contact of the relays be?
Is it possible the contact will bounce and that it will make contact for only lets say only for 250 ns, enough for opening the wire
but maybe not enough for detonating the HE inside?
Or is it more likely that the current will keep flowing even if the contact of the relay will bounce, because the air in between will
be ionized?
I think the second, but maybe some one can tell me if it is likely that I will get problems with this system?
Tuatara February 22nd, 2004, 10:59 PM

There should be a healthy arc during your contact bounce, maintaining the current. In fact the arc probably strikes moments
before the contacts actually touch! Don't expect a huge lifetime out of those contacts though
Boomer April 20th, 2004, 11:08 AM

As I promised to Rhadon (?) in another threat, here comes the circuit of my EBW B-Box. I did not include the internal parts of
the CCFL inverter, if someone is interested I can post them later. It should be one made for a longer tube (>8 inches) to give
enough voltage.
The resistors parallel to the diodes are necessary to equally divide the voltage. Those in series protect diodes + inverter in
case the caps discharge not equally. The 4 diodes to the right and the LED are not absolutely needed, but useful to show when
the caps are full. They also prevent overcharging.
I am open for any questions.
nbk2000 April 20th, 2004, 06:11 PM

Here's a question.
Where is the schematic? :rolleyes:
Boomer April 22nd, 2004, 09:12 AM

Rhadon deleted it.
He must have misunderstood me in the "personal info" threat. I scanned the raw text again and did not find ANYTHING that
could lead to me, so here it is again, in case he does not have it anymore to re-attach it.
Rhadon, thanks anyway!
Rhadon April 23rd, 2004, 09:13 PM

I thought what you meant was that the file you uploaded contains personal info again, so I deleted it. But I approved your
attachment now, so everything's fine.
Child-of-Bodom May 17th, 2004, 11:01 AM

Hi,
15F MKP at 1kV gave reliable dets
This is a total energy of 7,5 J (W=1/2 . C . V^2 Where W is energy in J. C capacatie of cap in F, and V volts)
In your B-box however, you have 14 275V 3,3 uF cap's parrallel. This means in total 275V and 46.2uF. Total energy would be
only 1,75J
I guess you used MKP cap's - I can only find them in AC :confused:
they are 16-50uF 450 V AC.
I am interested in you battery drived CCFL...
Sorry for all these quetions - but I don't want to wast money on wrong components...
COB

Ok, I already find out something...
I now have 3 MKP cap, 220V AC, But they can be charged up to 320V DC (with the flash circuit of a trow-away camera - just cut
off the cap and replace it with yours) They have a capacity of 16, 66 and 99 uF.
16 didn't work, the cap is broken I think, when I release it from the charge circuit it runs down in voltage...
66 gave a loud bang when discharged over a copper wire with r = 7,5mm.
As switch I use a 24V driven relais from a car, I can get many of them, so maybe I will make some snap-in montage.
greets,
COB

I got it working!!
I used an empty .22 shell, filled with 3mm MHN. As bridge I used r=7,5mm copperwire, and as cable 1,5mm. I make the 2
cables together, cut them off, and on top I solder the wire, this is a little difficult, but it works. (I can't find TR5 fuses in a
store)
The end of the shell is closed by pressing.
As charger I use the circuit of the trow-away camera, I am busy with a CCFL driver circuit.
The caps were charged to 300V, but the strange thing was that after the det 220V was still over the caps. (when I am testing
'dry' the caps always completely discharge) Could this mean that schockwave blow out the arc? If this is treu, I can use less
power to detonate. (=less space in my d. box)
As swich I use a relay which I can open with a screwdriver when it is metled together :rolleyes:
Thanx for all the info, Boomer, Microtek and others!!
Marvin May 30th, 2004, 03:16 AM

I have the feeling the MHN test is too easy for this application. I was under the impression it was a primary explosive, Ive just
checked Davis, and he considers it 'almost, but not quite a primary explosive'. He also says that it will detonate from the
flame of a match that causes local overheating. So Id question if its really the shockwave from the bridge thats causing the
detonation, or just local overheating in many of these tests.
You might be forgiven for wondering if this matters, but given the substance is stated to be about as shock and friction
sensitive as liquid nitroglycerin, and yet rather less stable chemically, do we really want to be making detonators out of it? ISnt
doing away with unstable primaries the whole point?
I have the feeling electrolytic caps are slightly too slow for this application and my experience of camera flash circuits is that
they dont tolerate abuse well, particulally the disposable ones.
Microtek May 30th, 2004, 05:41 AM

It is true that MHN is rather sensitive and not particularly stable chemically, but as with so many things this is a matter of
compromise:
A sensitive base charge such as MHN will be more reliable when it becomes time to initiate it, and a less powerful blasting box
can be used. It will also be somewhat more liable to explode accidentally ( though still less than a cap with primary explosive
).
A less sensitive base charge such as RDX will definately not explode unintentionally from any realistic accident, but it will
require a state-of-the-art blasting box and even then, misfires will be rather likely.
In my opinion, well-neutralized MHN is not overly unsafe but things like PETN would obviously be preferable from a chemical
stability point of view.
Child-of-Bodom May 31st, 2004, 12:09 PM

Well, the big (in my point of view) advantage of MHn is that you can store t for a rather long time, if you dissolve it in hot
EtOH, it will be very hard to detonate.
To let the EtOH dry to get good MHN doesn't take too long, within a day it must be ok.
The charging circuit I am using allows itself formidable for abuse, it is doing the same job as usual, anly a bit longer. However,
for 10 $ you can buy a CCFL inverter which works on 12V and gives an output of 600V AC. - two 2 KV diodes will do to rectify.
Maybe this is a good option if this circuit is broken, but so far this works nice.
Boomer June 1st, 2004, 04:47 AM

I never had it DETONATE (i.e. high order) from heat. I experimented a lot with caps containing only MHN, plus a power resistor
to overheat it. They SOMETIMES worked, but it war a low order detonation / deflagration. The cap metal was only split, not
pulverised like when I started adding some 25mg of SF.
COB: You might have had a low order det using electrolytic caps. You can easily test this by putting the cap on a test plate,
and compare the hole / dent with that made by a cap with an additional 0.2g AP (or 0.025g SF etc).
I agree that PETN or at least ETN would be better. I guess that is when you will need a circuit like mine. Instead of giving you
150A within 5s, it gives 1500A within 0.5s. :D
BTW you can double the efficiency of the cap if you press of the base charge REALLY hard in a vice (20000 PSI = density
1.65 = 8km/s), then hand-press the last and add the bridge wire! As soon as I get the digicam back, I will post pictures of
the difference it makes. :)
Child-of-Bodom June 1st, 2004, 05:20 AM

I use MKP caps, electrolytes didn't work out...
I use 2 220V AC caps in a parallel situation. They are 66 and 99 uF. charged to 300V as explained before.
Switching is done by a 24V driver car relay, it can handle up to 50A. Sometimes it is stuck, but with a screwdriver I can open
the contacts again, and so it work already quite some time...
Boomer, where did you 'find' the tr5 fuses? I am playing with wires r=7,5mm, but that is hard to standardise, I mean, it is hard
to make everytime exact the same cap.
I cannot find them at Conrad or in any electronic store...
I can order from germany (I'm 'Hollandisch'), that's no problem.
thanks!!
ProdigyChild September 4th, 2004, 09:20 AM

I've read in one of the links above, that commercial bridge wires are extremely thin - at most 0.0025 " IIRC , that's about
60um for metric peoply - and made out of gold. That's less than the thinnest copper (0.1mm) wire I can buy.
I wonder if carbon fibres could be used, too? Carbon fibres filaments are about 8um in diameter. I know about the positive
temperature coefficent of carbon (graphite), i.e. resistance drops as it gets hot. This seems to be the major drawback of this
material, besides it's relative high resistance. But is is really a problem WHEN the greatest power dissipation is achieved? Why
use thousands of amps to heat a metal wire if you can use thousands of volts to heat a carbon one?
Another thing I'm wondering about is: can't I use a normal diode as power switch?
A one way power switch that uses avalanche breakdown of the diode - kind of a solid state sparc gap ;)
Use one capacitor charged up to below the diodes reverse voltage. Connect the capacitor to the bridge wire via the diode in
wrong polarity. No current flow. Now apply some overvoltage to the diode and it breaks down and reverse current increases
dramatically initially, destroys the junction and you have bridged the diode (forever).
Application of overvoltage can easily applied by another diode in series with opposite polarity and applying voltage to this
diode (reverse). I should have the possibility (post count) to post a diagram soon.
SCRs (thyristors) capable of switching high currents are SO UNBELIEVABLE expensive :eek:
ProdigyChild September 13th, 2004, 06:56 PM

Finished my first EBW circuit today and blew up a few mg of MHN with it :)
Nothing much improviced but a electronic circuit build from scratch with a handfull of standard devices, around 30$ in total.
It charges two 10uF/500V capacitors used for AC motors.
The result is seen by the bridgewire as a 5uF cap charged to 1000V. This was shorted over a 5mm short carbon fibre (7um).
Bazzzzz!!
The little bit of MHN sprayed the tape I put on top of it into my face, that's we we ALL use wear goggles in our dreams, don't
we?
Carbon wires (fibres) explode very well, too (not only PTC metals). At least as far as I can say right now.
I someone is interested in a schematic, I can draw and post it.

The ciircuit is as follows:
2 transistors (BD135) work as an astable, timing determined by two 10uF caps and base resistors of about 8k+protections
resistors of a few hundred ohms. Collectors wired directly to a cast 1.6VA transformator (2*4.5V, 1x220V). Secondary voltage is
doubled and rectified with two 1N4007 and the two beforementioned (non-electrolytic) capacitors. That's all! Quite resistant to
abuse (shorting), low power consumption.
However, I should have chosen a 2*3V trafo, because I need 15V= input for 1000V= output right now. I wanted it to be
operated by a single 9V battery.
Oh yeah, if someone wonders: over-driving the 3V coil of the trafo with 15V is OK - I use a higher switching frequency than 50/
60Hz. However I count on its insulation to stand the 500 Voltsc :D
ProdigyChild September 14th, 2004, 10:18 AM

Thanks to my intense research recently I've got news for you and can answer some questions I posed myself.
1) Carbon fibre wires suck.

Not, that they don't explode. But the need far more voltage to perform well (compared to AL foil, for example). I succeeded to
detonate a 10mg 'chargelet' of MHN once, but failed to do 2 times.
Detonating PETN failed, too.
2) Aluminium foil is wonderful!

Cut a stripe of 0.5 to 1mm width, 2cm length off a household aluminium foil. Tape it between copper foil contacts of 3mm to
5mm distance. It explodes violently with my EBW-box described above (5uF/1000V/2.5J, non-electrolytic). Even PETN in
smallest amounts is set off reliably :)
3) I've understood that EBW are an excellent way of setting off tiny amounts of HE !
I've used PETN/MHN charges of 3mm x 2mm x 1mm in volume, 'confined' by a tape on top, stuck on top. The HE well blows
away the copper foil contacts. This never happenes, when exploding the Al foil wire alone.
4) My idea of using a diode an applying overvoltage to breakdown is shit. It does not break down resistance fast enough and
EXPLODES. Thereby of course consuming most energy itself :mad:
@Boomer: you've convinced me at last.....
ProdigyChild September 21st, 2004, 02:43 PM

Well I got my 160A (4000A surge)/1200V SCR (thyristor) today. I could not resist trying to blow up a aluminium foil with it.
I engaged mit HV charging device, checked the tension with my volt meter - BAZZZ!!?????
OK, I exploded the series resistor inside it. Must not happen, but after opening I saw it was f***ing Chinese work inside and
two resistors nearly touched each other and the high tension just ionized the air in between. So my volt meter was gone :mad:
I concluded, my HV charging device definitely worked and charged to about 1kV. Next I build a neat bridge wire from
aluminium foil, taped it on a plastic plate, attached the 1kV capacitor to it with the SCR in series. But what was that sparkling
when closing the circuit ?? Obviously, there was enough current trickling through the SCR to show a visible tiny arc, when closing
the circuit. While my brain was trying to find an explanation, I was repeating this one more time when suddenly ** BAZZZZZ
** the SCR decided to switch without gate trigger and was destroyed at once (shorted). :eek:
What the f***, I thought, already gone after a few seconds?
Yes. Really. Boomer is so right, when he says SCRs won't do the job.
There are few more reasons agains SCRs in EBW-triggering:

How the hell to avoid a too rapid rise of the voltage at the SCR (dU/dt). You can't simply plug your detonator to your blasting
box and then trigger the SCR. The sudden voltage rise will trigger immediately by exceeding critical dU/dt. So always:
1. plug
2. charge
3. trigger.
Moreover, you have a too high trickling current to use a low power charging unit, like I do. Voltage breaks down to a few 100V
and that will definitely not give a detonating wire. That's a major problem with slim battery powered systems.
So do what? I HATE mechanical triggering, really.

I spontaneously decided to build a triggered spark gap from nothing more than a bit wire and tape. See the attached image
below.
It consists of a 50um PE foil. The first foil I could get hold of in my room. On the upper side I taped 2 copper foils (rather
thick - 0.2mm at least) and left a gap of 1mm. On the lower side I taped another copper foil with 1 sharp edge pointing into
the middle to the gap. Know, the 50um foil separates this 'gate' from the other two electrodes. On the left electrode I taped a
aluminium foil stripe of 1mm witdth and 7mm length in series. All that connected to the HV-capacitor charged up. Then I wired
a car ignition coil output to the 'gate' and ground to the right electrode. Then stoke the ignition coil with a 30V power supply **
BAZZZZZ ***. Aluminium bridge wire vapourized :D
I don't claim this to be a practical solution, but it shows at least how easily you can build a (unlimited) power switch rather than
spending you money on expensive silicon, that dies at the very first attempt to do something unuseful.
The spark gap shown only works once. I have to clean it and re-tape the electrodes before the next use, cos they're bent
upwards and oxidized a bit. A bit more solid construction along with a better foil (higher dielectric constant, perhaps
polystyrene) and especially more massive electrodes would make it an attractive alternative to mechanical switches!
This was my first triggered spark gap ever! I've tried years before but always failed.
I wonder if I should patent it as a EBW film thyristor ;)
Child-of-Bodom September 25th, 2004, 02:44 PM

Why do you hate mechanical triggering? I use an over voltaged car relay, which can handle 50A. Although you put 1KA thru it,
the only thing that happens is that the relay gets welded together. Ive made a small hole in the plastic cover of relays so I
can re-open it later with a screwdriver. This relay can stand at least 600V, maybe more, and you can simply adjust the distance
between the switching contacts, they are made of copper.
Your solution is very nice and is working, but it also has to be operative in absence of light, in the middle of the night, with
cold and not easy to manoeuvrable fingers, in a wet gras land. (For me at least)
Thats why I like to use a relays, just use a long wire and a simple charge circuit to charge a 40V cap, and press the button.
No offence to your idea, I have some troubles with wires, so I'm really going to test it, but then with a piece of alu foil between
2 copper plates, which are soldered. It's a pity that alufoil is inimpossible to solder, and copper foil of the same thickness is
hard to find.

COB, definitely try alu foil wires. I have found nothing that works performs like that. Although the low melting point of Al
should be a drawback?
You don't need soldering. At all. Instead, you cut a long thin stripe off the Al foil with a sharp blade and a ruler. As thin as you
can.
Stick this stripe/wire on your favourite tape. Here you have your EBW tape! Tape it between two contacts - done.
There's no real reason, why I don't like mechanical switching. It's the more practical solution, you're right.
I've bought a high voltage capacitor on ebay. 2100V AC (= nearly 3kV DC), 1 uF. Sounds good but is sh1t. This kind of
capacitor is usually found in microwave ovens. Unfortunately, they have a parallel resistor inside of about 10M. Bummer!
Not much you say? Oh yes, at 3kV this is U*U/R = 0.9W that leak away. Too much for my up to 4kV charging unit. It reaches
1kV only with the 10M load.
I build a capacitor myself today. household alu foil + 80um PE foil. A bit clumsy, but I managed to detonate some PETN with it
at last. I reached 0.25uF capacity by stacking 10 layers of foils (10xAl foil 0.45m x 0.3m). In the end I got an internal short
that destroyed it. Pity!
Where do I get a leakage free capacitor of a few kV and from 0.5uF upwards? What machines contain such?
Child-of-Bodom September 27th, 2004, 04:54 AM
It's a pity that since the iDefence incident a lot of info from this thread was gone, but I had some of the theads offline, since I
don't have a continious internet connection.
This is part of the thread, where in the last reply Boomer gives a solution to your problem, ProdigyChild...
Boomer
As promised, here is a picture of a 1 inch water pipe I used for EBW cap testing (indoors, in a sound-proof blast box!). You can
see 5 very small dents (circular), marked with lines to reuse the pipe. They were caused by 0.4g MHN each, hand pressed into
small metal tubes. They had a TR5 fuse bridge wire, B-box had 1500A with 0.5s rise time (see my other posts).
You also see two big dents, where the steel is partly torn, plus the torn right end of the pipe. These were also 0.4d caps, but
3/4 of the base charge was compressed to density 1.65 - 1.7 in a vice (at 20000 - 30000 PSI).
The difference you have from a properly pressed base charge is amazing!
(Sorry for the picture size, it was 16k at 540x300, and cutting it to 496x300 to allow upload INCREASED it to 36K. How that? I
must get photoshop pro)
Edit: photo completely on the bottom!!
COB
Nice pic!!
Boomer, I have some questions about the scope, how to set it in the right 'mode' for measuring very fast currents. Maybe this
is too specific for here, would it be possible for you to e-mail me? It's a new model Fluke scope.
Thanks! (I tried before, but is was difficult to get them appropriate on screen...)
Marvin
Just a suggestion and assuming its a digital scope, but I would try using 50 ohm cable, terminated (50 ohm resistor) at the
explosive end next to the fine wire, battery over it, and set the scope input to ECL mode. That would alow you to inexpensivly
keep the scope a good distance from the charge.
Some experimentation to set the trigger level, try seeing how frequently you get random triggers for some very low settings....
Set it so you see whats going on before it triggers (negative time delay).
COB
Hmm, I test at a company...I won't go in there with explosives...
I'll try to trigger with a trigger wire over the bridge wire, I hope the plasma destroyes the trigger wire. The relais takes tens of
milliseconds to close, so that doesn't work for triggering.
Thanks anyway.
Btw, I just found out that I made a small mistype in a post before, I use wires r=0,075 mm, not 7,5 mm
Marvin
Whoops my fault, I read the post and assumed you were trying to do a VOD measurement. Ignore everything I said about
trigger wires. By fast currents, you mean the fast/high current of the bridge det circuit.
You need the charger circuit isolated from the mains (say by running from a battery). Put a very small resistance in series with
the bridge, it needs to be much smaller than the bridge itself. 1mohm would be good for 1000A using a scale of 1V for
example. Take the input over this resistor, preferably with a 10:1 probe which vastly reduces the chance you will do perminant
damage to the scope.
For measuring voltage again use a 10:1 input, but you will need an aditional voltage dividor. 10:1's will normally take 300v or
so but its best to reduce this with an external dividor, if the charger is a 3kv job this is clealy essential. You need a dividor not
as high as the probe impedence (usually 1M or 10M) but not so low that you draw noticable power from the circuit. The dividor
will go over the bridge.
If measuring voltage and current at the same time be sure that both grounds are at the same point. This should be the only
point your circuit is grounded given its running from a battery.
Ignore the trigger input alltogether and use the current input, it should be reliable. Again use negative triggering to see the
whole pulse. For the first attempt go down to the noise level and back off until you get no random triggering.
Use TTL mode for these measurements, not ECL. Very very important.
Boomer
OK Marvin, I was wondering what you meant. I measure current with a 1 mOhm resistor towards ground, and voltage with a
100:1 (2.5KV) probe towards the same ground. But most Fluke scopes (DSOs) are insulated, and my B-box runs from 2 x 9V
blocks and a CCFL driver anyway. It charges to 500V (standard cap) in 3 seconds, and to 1.5KV in 13 seconds!
COB, put the caps in series if possible, even if they are not exactly the same value (or add 33 to the smaller)! The energy is
the same, and the higher the voltage, the faster the current rise. And parasitic impedance (wires etc) have less effect.
If they are X1 or X2 types (noise suppressors for mains voltage), they have a test voltage of 1KV. You can charge them to
500V each (1000V total) without problems. My MKPs are 275 VAC/X2, I charge to 750 VDC (1500V total). You can use a simple
voltage doubler.
PS: Conrad part numbers are 536768 / ...84 / ...92 for the 1A / 1.6A / 2A TR5 fuses (47 cent each at 10 pcs + VAT). Maybe
they are only in the business catalogue, not in the one for private users. But they should deliver to you without question if you
are registered there.
Anthony September 28th, 2004, 08:31 PM

Child-of-Bodom, what is the isolation level between the switching parts, and solenoid parts of an automotive relay?
You've got potentially (some member's blasting boxes) several thousand volts on the switching side, just waiting for an earth,
and a few millimeters away are the wires which lead to your hand with the firing switch...
Boomer September 29th, 2004, 03:39 AM

At COB:
Thanks for saving those posts! I was wondering where that photo had gone, was just about to re-post it, as I referred to it in
another thread (about the power increase of highly compressed base charges). But I didn't have the texts saved on HDD.
At Anthony:
Unfortunately some car relays have lower insulation than those for mains voltage, but some have the same insulation,
creapage and clearance distance, because they use the same plastic body. There are types with guaranteed 4KV insulation,
and 10mm between coil and contact pins. These should be safe to use, I tested one for breakdown and it took 17kV!
Moreover, the voltage looking for an earth will only hurt the operator IF he is earthed, and rubber boots with 10+ mm soles
should protect somewhat. Plus, the low terminal of the charger circuit would have to be earthed too. If the output is without any
earth connection, it would take a triple breakdown to do harm: From the contacts to the coil/user, through his boots to earth,
and from earth to the low terminal of the circuit. The latter is the biggest problem, as most people will be using speaker wire
(e.g. 2 x 6mm, 1/3 the resistance of 1.5mm mains cable) which is NOT rated for HV (500V max test voltage, not even allowed
for 120 VAC).
ProdigyChild October 1st, 2004, 02:29 PM

I happened to look at a broken computer motherboard and noticed, the Cu lines on it are about 0.1-0.2mm in widht. Given
the thickness of 37um of the copper layer, this is a suitable wire similar to a 60um wire - perfect choice for a bridgewire, isn't
it? You can cut if and peel off the mainboard after heating above a candle easily.
They perform as good as the aluminium wires I normally use. Possibly you can cut out a suitable section of a PCB and already
have a sturdy carrier for the BW :)
nbk2000 October 1st, 2004, 05:56 PM

Or use a PCB etching kit to make your own bridgewires and solder your EBW box leads to it.
Boomer October 11th, 2004, 02:25 PM

I tried that but without success. But that was before I upgraded from electrolytic to foil caps with 10 time faster current rise.
Will try again later.
BTW here is the pic of my 1500V/1500A/12s-charge-time EBW box which I promised:
Centimeter October 12th, 2004, 02:51 AM

I recently purchased 12 2kVDC/2uF pulse type mica-paper polymer capacitors. On the information page for the capacitors, it
specificly states that they are often used for millitary EFI devices. Before I discovered the existence of this thread, I decided to
make two sub-capacitor banks in which each has 6 capacitors hooked up in series. I would then attach the two capacitor banks
together in parallel so as to create an overall value of 12kv/2uF. I also purchased a HV transformer that steps up 150V to 9KV
DC which is just right for my capcitor bank. I then purchased an adgustable tungsten electrode spark gap. I also purchased
some HV diodes so that I don't have to worry about damaging my expensive transformer. Overall, this cost me about 100USD.
The stuff should arive some time this week. Is this the optimal capacitor bank that can be created from the 12 capacitors for
EBW aplications? Should the charging circuit be in the form of an RC charging circuit? If so, what kind of resistor would I use for
such HV aplications. I was planning on using a conductivity meter to indicate when the capacitors are fully charged. How do I go
about setting this up so that it doesn't blow up? I don't plan on using the blasting box for explosive aplications right away.
Rather I intend to use it in an art piece representing anger. Thus I would love to have the whole thing powered by a hand
crank generator. I know that I can make one that easily puts out 4.5V which can then be stepped up to 150V no problem. Is
this feasible? Also, in your "professional" opinion, is this going to blow the fucking shit out of a one inch long hair thin strand
of copper wire? I want it to be a fantasticly loud and bright explosion, hence my attempt at making the capacitor bank have a
farely high voltage. Any and all help is most apreciated. :D
ps- The capacitors cost about 8USD a piece and if anybody wants I can give you the contact informaion of the guy that is
selling them.

Nice toy! How much current does it draw while charging and how much in trickle charge mode?
You used 3 varistors to stabilize the voltage at 1500V instead of Z-diodes?
I've built a low power 2kV flyback converter using mainly a CMOS 4093 and a high voltage MOSFET (IRF710 happend to come
into my hands). I used 10 (!) 200V Z-diodes for generating an feedback signal indication target voltage reached. Feedback
current is only 6uA. I haven't expected Z-Diodes to have so low trickle current below Zener-Voltage!
Is the same true for varistors??
Despite of the energy saving design, my circuit still consumes around 30mA @9V=270mW) in trickle charge mode (only the
6uA trickling! = 12mW). I believe that's because it's so inefficient at high charging voltages.
The circuit avoids high diode reverse voltages and especially slow voltage reversion. That's why I don't (believe I) need the
series resistors when cascading diodes.
At the moment, I'm rather disappointed about my EBW experiments. Since I use a cable (5m only!), things have become
MUCH more difficult and I'm misfiring more often than not :mad:
Since total resistance is less than 0.1Ohms I blame it on inductivity of the cable.
I use open detonators, i.e. confinement is done by plasticine only. I have either detonation that ruptures the plasticine ball
(2-3cm) into a hundred pieces or I have a misfire. Low order dets are avoided by this method. And I can do everything indoors
with only a few mg of HE.
I found, that the type of wire isn't really important. Aluminium foil (household foil > chocolate wrapper foil > capacitor foil) is
my favourite. Electroformed copper foil can also be made easily (estimated 10um) but isn't worth the effort in my opinion.
Super fine copper wire - thinner than 0.1mm is available from tiny electronic coils. I broke a flash light ignition coil (15mm
high, 15mm wide) while experimenting with spark gaps, disassembled it and found that it contains the ideal bride wire :D
It's copper wire hence solderable after burning and cleaning.
Also I found that putting a bit of paper beween explosive (PETN or MHN) is almost an insurance for misfiring.
I have to calculate or measure the inductance of the wire.
EDIT:
I've done this right now: @3.3Mhz the cable behaves like a 4uH inductance (Z=83Ohms). What a bloody shit! This limits dI/dt
for a 2000V power supply to 2000V/4uH = 500A/us. Not really what I would like to have :mad:
This explains a lot and generally rules out speaker cables. The DC resitance is neglectable compared to its AC impedance!
Unless I've made a big mistake in calculation...
I'll compare to a coax cable soon.

@Centimeter: You should put resistors in series, if you diodes are exposed to high current peaks while connection your
capacitors or while discharging. Also expect, that the cable + caps form an oscillator thus reversing the voltage of the caps at
radio frequency. I've seen up to five sine waves on the oscilloscope (when the bridgewire did not explode) in at a few MHz.
This voltage reversal can easily kill recitifer diodes. I suggest using a few kOhm, limiting the current peak to 1A.
One problem with checking the charge is power consumption. I use 10 10MOhm resistors and a 50uA analog meter to
measure voltage up to 5kV. However it consumes 50uA at 5kV!
Do not try to measure 1kV with you multimeter. Most of these toys only stand it for a few seconds despite a 1kV range :mad:
In the data sheet you will find the actual restrictions (duration!)
I've killed 2 of them, damn! There are no varistors inside - too expensive????
blowing 1inch requires a bit of energy. 1uF won't be enough, 10uF are (at 2kV). You're in the right order of magnitude of
capacitance, if you charge up to full voltage.
Child-of-Bodom October 30th, 2004, 03:05 PM

I did some testing, and have solved my problems partly. I use new caps now, 11 1KV caps with a capacity of 2.2uF, and 9 caps
of 250V/4.7uF. I put the 11 caps parallel, The 250V caps are set in series by 3, and 3 of these blocks are in series with the 11
1KV caps. (I hope I was clear).
This is all charged to 1.3KV, my disposable-photo-camera-print couldnt get more, it started fuzzing over the 1.3KV. I blew my
CCFL inverter to the electronic heaven when I tried to charge my caps up to 1.2KV with it. So I use it at 1.3KV
This delivers 30J of energy, what should be way enough. It actually is, but not with some cable length, with 50cm of cable it
worked very well, but when I tested it with 4m cable (separated 1.5mm cable), I only had one full det, but it wasnt
reproducible.
So the length of the cable is essential, as Prodigychild has already explained me by email (thanks therefore!!), so my
question to the ones who actually have their box working (Boomer?): What cable do you use? Just ordinary speaker wire, or
coax wire? The latter should give a better performance due to the earth layer around it. I can get very thick coax cable,
(1.5mm at least in the centre) as I cannot imagine that a thin coax cable can beat an ordinary 1.5mm cable.
BTW: For the ones that would like to try 12um thick copper foil, drop me a line in the mail I stepped over to wires, since they
perform better in my lab, for one or another reason.
ProdigyChild October 31st, 2004, 01:53 PM

Today I shot a few photos of my EBW equipment and experiments.
The printed circuit boards are in fact 'hand drawn circuit boards' made from scrap yard copper coated boards.
Image #1 shows on the left from top to bottom:

- 8V power supply
- 9V to 2000kV (stabilized) flyback converter
- 5kV voltage meter
In the middle you can see 3 0.33uF/2kV caps paralleled, below these a spark gap triggering at 1.9-2kV
On the right side, there's a epoxy board with copper tape connections and a 60um bridge wire soldered between
All experiments were made with this setup (enery dose).
Image #2 shows EBW for fun: A 30mm Al foil stripe (15um x 200um) is blown in a way, that it does NOT go plasma but only
fractured in a hundred pieces. Only on th bottom a bit plasma formed. Although looking spectacular, this is not suitable for
setting off HEs. Also, percussion output isn't much.
Image #3 shows EBW for blowing HEs. Al foil is only 5mm long and no shrapnel can escape vapourization. It forms a typical
bright flash ball. Too bright for my camera and the number of gray filters and sunglasses I used (1 each) :cool:
Image #4 shows shows the 'plasticine block test'. You can get an idea of energy output of your circuit, much better than with
your ears. However, I CAN'T decide if a circuit is good enough from this test only. Only if a circuit does not make dents like
that it has NO chance of detonating HEs, really. Not much louder than eating pop corn.
Image #5 shows 'plasticine block test' with a HE charge of 1mg (one milligram; approx 1 cubic mm) of MHN. It lifts the block
and puts a round dent of about 12mm diameter in the plasticine. The bridgewire alone (+a 130um tape on top) causes a dent
of 4mm diameter only. This test can be performed indoors with people living next to your door. Use a plasticine disc of 30mm
diameter and 10mm height at least.
Using larger amounts of HE (about 100mg) results in fracturing the plasticine and blowing a hundred pieces all over your room
:mad:
Also, I touched the the charged caps today with one hand (thank God) . I must say it's quite painful! I bridged on the wire's
behalf with thumb and first finger and saw the spark gap firing (flashing) :eek:
In contrast to 'normal' electric shocks (limited current!) I felt a burnig pain inside the first finger for a few minutes along with
lacking sensation at the tip. After about 5minutes the sensation recovered and the pain was gone.
ProdigyChild November 1st, 2004, 11:52 AM

Hi,
I read your post about capacitor arrangement and found a small error:
Putting 6 2uF/2kV caps in series yields a 2/6uF / 2*6kV cap.

Paralleling 2 of these is: 2/3uF / 2*6kV = 0.66uF/12kV !!
Huge amount of pulse energy though ;)
I'm interested in purchasing such a cap (or two) in order to compare performance to more easily available ones.
Boomer November 2nd, 2004, 01:32 PM

At COB:
I had no misfires with a 2.5m and a 4m speaker cable till now. When you say separated 1.5mm cable do you mean you split
the two conductors (for better insulation)? This might be a reason for misfires, as it greatly increases inductance by forming a
loop.
At Prodigy:
The inductance you measured at 3.3MHz is probably a little high. Some HIFI gurus measured for cable resonance which is
claimed to influence sound, and found 2.2 8.5 MHz depending on length. Shows that for HIFI resonance is a myth, but your
measurement was probably effected.
I looked at several cable data sheets and they are between 0.4 - 1 H/M for cross wired 4-conductor types and 1.2-2.4 H/m
for standard twin wires. This would give around 2H for your cable.
BTW my 2.5m cable was standard 2x2.5mm2 twin cable, the 4m one was two 2x1.5mm twin cables in parallel (halves
inductance). From this close, the shockwave of 50-90g Plastique is like a punch in the guts, and if your finger slips out your
ear consider the ear drum gone. That is why I will buy a 100m ring for 14 Euro, and take 6 twin pairs of 15m length in parallel
soon.
PS: The rise time I measured with the scope was THROUGH the 2.5m cable!
mil&co December 7th, 2004, 11:20 AM

I surfed on a Dutch/Belgian pyro site, (This one (http://www.chemixtry.tk/) ) and I came across the idea of putting an
aluminium wire in an staw filled with destilled water. The reaction that might take place: The aluminium-oxide coating on the
wire falls away because of the heat, disposing the aluminium plasma to react with the destilled water.
In fact, aluminium (whitout oxide coating) would react with water just like potassium or sodium would.
Would this be an idea to "boost" the effect of an ordinary EBW.
Child-of-Bodom December 20th, 2004, 02:55 PM

I wonder how you get that idea from chemixtry, as I was the one that started the EBW thread around there.
It seems bugger to me, as Al is not very reactive to water, if I toss 80um Al in water, almost nothing happens, and a piece of
Al foil does not weigh too much (a piece of 0.1 * 1.5 * 0.012mm), so the amount of Al dispersed in the water wont be so
much. I cannot see the water act as booster, no way. Anyway, why use water??? Water is not really the material used in
detonators.
Anyways, ontopic:
I had some struggle with wires ed, see post upwards, I read carefully through the whole RISI website, it has a shitload of info
in the technical documents, also concerning the local laws, written in a funny way, you dont expect from a company.
I solved my problem with wires by using COAX wires, and then not 2 separate, but using the mantle and the core. The best
line would be constructed yourself, by taping a foil on tape, adding a thin-as possible insulator, and adding foil again, like a
capacitor. This type of wire has a small amount of inductance. An optimum must be find in capacitance and resistance of this
wire
I only suffer one thing, but I dont know or this is normal.

If I use a plastic drinking straw casing for the MHN, in the casing just a few mm go DDT, and the rest gets launched. When I
put my EBW in a 9mm shell, filled with 150mg MHN, and I crimp the 9mm shell, I have never duds, it always works.
I would like to set of the primary in a drinking straw since I live in a rather crowded area, and for setting of small amount of
HE, less then 20gr. I am afraid that the charge gets flyed away by the detonator when I use MHN in a metal casing.
I dont know why actually, does it make sense anyway? Ive not so much experience in setting of explosives by a detonator.
mostly inside with small amounts.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP Experim ent
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flashpoint D e c e m ber 7th, 2003, 09:35 PM

W ell this experiment is for people that really don't want to post in AP Beginners Guide :) Like myself...I'm experim enting with
CTAP and we ll I've found some stuff to be VERY interesting. W ell I did th e following synthesis from blindreepers website.
7 5 m l of 25% H2O 2
4 5 m l of 100% Aceton e
2 0 m l of 30% HCl
M a k e a s a l t e d ice bath, by adding salt to ice so the tem perature is lowerd to 5 *C . P l a c e t h e b e a k e r i n t o t h e i c e b a t h a n d a d d

7 5 m l of 25% H2O 2 t o t h e b e a k e r a s w e l l a s 4 5 m l o f 1 0 0 % a c e t o n e . W ait until the temperature of this has dropped to5 *C.
Dropwise, add the HC l k e e p i n g o n e e y e o n t h e t h e r m o m eter to m a k e s u r e t h e t e m perature doesn't rise above 10 * C. If it
does stop adding acid and wait till it cools back down. Now I prefer to leave the beaker int he ice bath for an hour then then
into the freezer for a day or 2. After this the be aker will be filled with AP. Now i add soem distilled water to break up the AP and
pour it into the large container. Then add 250m l of distilled water and stirr around. Then add your base to the solution. It will
fizz a lot thats why it's in a big container ;) O nce the solution fizzes no m ore when your base is added it is ready to filter. Filter
the solution and keep the residue (white crystals of AP in the filter) You m ay discard the filtrate. Lay the crystals out onto a
plate and leave to dry over night. DO NOT dry in an ove n u n l e s s y o u d o n 't want the oven any more!!!
Anyway...I used rocksalt and ice, and rocksalt and ice, like that in layers till m y icebath wa s full of salt and ice, and had the
beaker with the H202 and Acetone inside, and I finally got the two down to about 5 *C, and I added a few drops of HCl and I
noticed the tem perature started to rise since it was speeding the reaction. So after added 1-2m l of HCl, I went inside and
forgot about it. I returned 20 m in later after forgetting about it...and noticed it was -7 *C , I was estonished that an icebath
good get it that cold...I've never let it keep going to see before though...anyway...I starte d adding it by m l by then, since it
was so far from 1 0 * C , a n d I e n d e d u p p o u r i n g 2 0 m l in, in the end I added 30m l of HCl instead of 20 because the reaction
hadn't started. I figured it was too cold...so I added another 10ml and well I went inside a nd returned not 5 m inutes later to
see the reaction had turned snow white...it was the thickest I've EVER had AP be...so I'm guessing if you let the tem perature
drop as far a s you can...you can possibly still have a Trimeric version of AP and have the highest possible yield....any
explanations for this high yield? I've haven't had time to weigh it...I'm about to go wash and strain in after dinner.
blindreeper D e c e m ber 7th, 2003, 10:00 PM

I am so honoured that som eone used my synthesis :) Never expected it.
Maybe my procedure is just awsome thats why so much AP form ed ;) Seriously now, I think that if you have never used high
conc. H2O2 before and only used 6% or what not you will be amazed at the yeilds. I know I was. I find when I add the acid I
pour in 10m l a t a t i m e a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n s e x c e p t a f e w d e g r e e s r i s e i n t e m perature and then keep adding acid. I can do it
i n a b o u t 2 m inutes if I am in a hurry. Not the wisest thing to do :rolleyes:
I f i n d I a d d 3 0 m l acid to that AP m ix anyways so it was good you used 30m l. If you leave it in a fridge for a day the reaction
m ixture will be like a frozen coke type mix = lo ts more AP.

I c h e c k e d o n it again, I left th e d a m n t h e r m o m eter in it, the acid was eating away at it (because I use a metal probed digital
one, I'm going to now use an infra-red therm o m eter). Usually when I m ake AP, it isn't as milky as this, its like straight milk,
I'm going to let it go at it som e m ore for about 30 minutes, until then I'll add 250m l of 10% bicarb solution and see what' the
wet yield is, until it drys.

If you can leave it for a day or so befo re filtering it, the yeild will be larger.
flashpoint D e c e m ber 8th, 2003, 12:15 AM

I d u m ped all the acid in at once though, I've never done that before...and the whole time in m aking it, I've added drop by
drop, the temperature didn't move tho ugh when I added all of it, and I've always used Baquacil Shock and Oxidizer....don't
use just plain Baquacil, it doesn't have enough H202. Anyway, once it got to the -6*C, I dum p e d a lll of it in...this was the
second batch I just m ade...its already got a fro zen coke look to it on top ...its been a total of 15 m intues, the whole procedu re!
I can't believe this...unbelievable.

I am so honoured that som eone used my synthesis
T h e r e a s o n I u s e d y o ur synth, by the way, was the first one I cam e to that used HCl instead of Sulphuric acid :)
Blackhawk D e c e m ber 8th, 2003, 01:22 AM

Although the acid actually m akes no differance, and seeing as it is not involved in the reaction the type isn't particularly
im portant, what you have to whatch for is that m ost synths with H2SO 4 use ~98% pure while you will only ever get a round 30%
HCl

See that's the thing, I have total access to H2S04, 98%, 75%....my dad owns a pool store ...I'm straight with chemicals :)
Zeitgeist D e c e m ber 8th, 2003, 08:55 PM

Interesting....... I didn't know H2SO4 was used with poo ls, only HCl for dropping the pH

H2S04, we use it on decks as well as Muratic (HCl). W e use it to acid etch m etals, clean decks...we carry it at the store for
various reasons. Don't sell too m uch of it, just use it m ainly.
Zeitgeist D e c e m ber 9th, 2003, 05:14 AM

I've heard th at it's unwise to use 50% H2O2 straight for m ost reactions, instead diluting it to 25-30% first instead to reduce
the heating when it's added to the reactants. That's correct isn't it?
blindreeper D e c e m ber 9th, 2003, 08:27 AM

Yes that is correct

W hy is it "unwise" to use 50% H202? I use 27%, so I say its 30%.

Because the reaction gets more violent as the concentrations get higher.

I see, well are the yields higher, if they are, is it worth taking the risk. That's the real question that I wanted to know :D
vulture D e c e m ber 9th, 2003, 06:26 PM

It's not true that yields will be higher with higher concentration, the reaction speed will be higher. But, as the tem perature go es
up, your yield will decrease be cause the form a t i o n o f A P i s a n e x o t h e r m ic reaction.

I u n d e r s t a n d what you mean...thanks :)

After straining off the second batch I m ade...th at I allowed to stay over night in the freezer. It alm ost froze com pletely, so I
added 250ML water, and a few spoonfuls of baking soda, until the neutralizing was done. Then strained it as I said, added
s o m e aceton e to the pile while it was still wet to aid in the drying process. I forgot about the filtrate and left it in m y pyrex on
the ground in the garage. I came back notice, the filtrate had m ore AP in it, which I think cam e into solution after I filtered the
o t h e r o n e . . . p o s s i b l y s o m e t h a t went th ru the coffee filte r, who knows but I took som e out with a dowel and lit it while it was wet,
it was stronger wet, than m y n orm ally dry powder. I'm g o i n g t o d o s o m e t e s t s s o o n t o s e e .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Experiem ents: Sodium Nitronate as a
Prim ary
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I n s p i r e d b y A x t , I h a v e t a k e n t h e s o d i u m nitronate synthesis to the enxt level, experienceing runaway reactions and what not.
For the full details on the synthesis http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chem istry/nanitronate.htm l

picture has m ore than needed to show the point but I cropped it and lost dramtic quality, its only 8kb!
http://img.villagephotos.com /p/2003-10/431717/reaction_lighting_up.JPG
Thats it just lighing up eg; The unreacted NM burning because oft he heat being produced nothing major.
But when you get a friggin run away and a fire b all 1ft from your head! Th ats som ething major!
http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/R unawayreaction.MPG - m ovie of the first runaway. Didn't g et the fireball at the
start like what happened but its still co ol!
http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/reactiongoingup.MPG - This was the big ass fireball I got on tape! Adding NM
to solid NaOH is not the way to go about making it!
Right click and save target as on those m o v i e s .
I have yet to test film and take pictures of explosive properties but, I ha ve done 3g in a a a paper tube which resulted in a
nice boom. Not loud enough for a detonation though. I will test 0.5g AP to initiate 5g nitro nate. Maybe it will serve as a good
prim ary, thats what I am trying to find out. I test it detonating 100g APPN soon.
Also I have yet to test other n i t r o n a t e s s u c h a s p o t a s s i u m , m a g n e s i u m , c a l c i u m a n d m a y b e b a r i u m o r s t r o n t i u m . Nothing

better than toxic, flamm a b l e e x p l o s i v e s !
Axt D e c e m ber 9th, 2003, 09:50 PM

Have you seen this thread? http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthre ad.php?tid=1089
Marvin thinks the nitronate cant be m ade throu gh this reaction, his chem ical knowledge fa r exceed s m ine but I have the
practical experiance and im not so sure for these reasons.
The fact that dissolving the salt in water will decompose/react further with it suggesting that its not totally decom posed throu g h
the water during the reaction (water can be seen floating up from the rea cting salt). Im also not sure, but leaving it for
e x t e n d e d t i m e increases its burn rate considerably whether this is due to sim ple drying or partial decom position to sodium
fulm inate (confirm ing nitronate) is unknown.
But whatever the case you pro bably found out that you MUST use excess cold NM or you will get a fire, I found that out the
hard way also. Its also probably a good idea to react the prills the filter quickly through a cloth so that to keep it away from the
water floating on top of the NM so as to not decompose it.
Hang-Man D e c e m ber 9th, 2003, 09:59 PM

Im suprised that beaker can take it. Pyrex m akes a solid product.

I wouldn't kn ow what pyrex m a k e s , i t s a b o m e x b e a k e r : P T h e y a r e e s s e n t i a l l y t h e s a m e; both are borosillicate. But Yes the
borosillicate glass take a bit o f therma l shock.
In regards to Marvin, I think practial work will be more conclusive than theory will ever be.
"Its also probably a good idea to react the prills the filter quickly through a cloth so that to keep it away fro m the water floating
on top of the NM so as to not decom pose it."
I do not entirely understand that Axt, can you please re -word it?
As for properties I found it not to be soluable in acetone, which i wash the product with in the end to get rid of the excess NM.
I used excess NM in another experime nt and got no fire so that much is true, but it seems having an excess of NM makes the
fire start in o ne of m y cases. The only thing burning is the NM no?
Also Axt, did you ever get a reaction as violent as the second movie I po sted? I thought it was unusually violent. As we speak I
a m m aking a drop test rid, a sm allsih one but it will do for m y nitronate experients.
I hope I don't get busted for attaching a 300kb file, but geocitie s will un-doubtably screw itself so here is a movie of the most
violent reaction I got on tape.
Axt D e c e m ber 10th, 2003, 02:54 AM

T h e s e c o n d " t h e " s h o uld be "then", wh at I m ean to say is that som e water will dissolve in the NM but a lot will form o n t h e
surface of the solution, you dont want to let this slowly filter down through your form ed salts so filter quickly through a cloth or
just decant it off the top.
Excess NM m eans the reaction m ust heat up a lot m ore until it flares up, that why excess is used, it takes m ore energy to heat
it. Yes I did am u s e m yself once by pouring NM over NaOH with results simular to yours.
Zeitgeist D e c e m ber 10th, 2003, 07:55 AM

Looks interesting,
hehe, bugger making the Nitronate, th e runaway reaction is fun enough by itself :)
Finding som e NM m ig ht be next week's adventure m eth i n k s

Try dissolving your NaOH in anhydrous alcohol and then react it with the nitromethane. That should keep m ost of th e water out
and the reaction under control.
Beware, this is m y theory. Hasn't been tested.
Zeitgeist D e c e m ber 10th, 2003, 08:37 PM

You might want to look into finding a better web host fo r those movies Blindreeper, the GeoCities isn't handling the data
transfer

Anhydrous alchohol? Eg methylated spirits? I don't think quite anhydrous though...
I tried using the NaOH in a strong solu tion, the layers sepertated out and after m uch stirring they reacted with boiling and th e
was no precipitate because the nitronate was dissolved.
Zeitgeist, don't tell m e about web hosting, I do n't see you posting anything new so stop com plaining about geocities. O k we
have established its crap I am trying to present usefull inform ationa nd you tell m e its not available, oh no you have to wait an
hour for the site to be restored :mad:

I tried using the NaOH in a strong solu tion, the layers sepertated out and after m uch stirring they reacted with boiling and th e
was no precipitate because the nitronate was dissolved.
Are you referring to a solution of NaOH in ethyl alcohol? If yes, have you tried letting the alcohol boil off? At room tem perature
ofcourse, considering it's volatility.

A strong solution of water. I don't know when I will be able to test the alcohol m e t h o d b e c a u s e I a m away for the next week as
of saturday :cool:
Marvin D e c e m ber 12th, 2003, 07:42 PM

The books Ive read agree closely on the subject.
T h e t e x b o o k m e t h o d o f m a k i n g s o d i u m m ethylenenitro nate is to add nitrom e t h a n e t o a s o l u t i o n o f a s o d i u m a l k o x i d e i n t h e

alcohol. The dried product con tains alcohol of crystalisation and is reportedly very unstable thermally/chem ically towards
fulm i n a t e s a n d o t h e r p r o d u c t s a s I v e p o s t e d i n s c i e n c e m a d n e s s a n d p r e v i o s l y h e r e .
W h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g i n a q s o l u t i o n m ight turn out to be useful, but it alm ost certainly isnt sodium m ethylenenitronate.
John A shcroft D e c e m ber 13th, 2003, 04:26 AM

In regards to Marvin, I think practial work will be more conclusive than theory will ever be.
Right, he has no concept of "practical work..."
Zeitgeist, don't tell m e about web hosting, I do n't see you posting anything new so stop com plaining about geocities. O k we
have established its crap I am trying to present usefull inform ationa nd you tell m e its not available, oh no you have to wait an
hour for the site to be restored
This is an attitude I frequently see here that pisses me off. "You aren't an ancient regular, so run off with your advice and fuck
it." Grow up, he was trying to be helpful, not an a s s h o l e .
W hen your reaction bursts into flame, it's telling you that you need to slow down the addition, use a m ore effective m e a n s o f
cooling, etc. You also m ight want to try m ixing a solution of nitromethane in diethyl ether, and slowly addin g the NaO H to that.

W h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g i n a q s o l u t i o n m ight turn out to be useful, but it alm ost certainly isnt sodium m ethylenenitronate.
Marvin, are you implying that NaO H + CH3OH + C H3NO2 will yield m ethylenenitronate?
I t h o u g h s o d ium m e t h o x i d e c o u l d o n l y b e f o r m e d b y N a + C H 3 O H ?
Marvin D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 01:44 PM

In very dilute solutions the reaction to ethoxide or methoxide will go to high yeild , but its not the base thats im portant here,
only the lack of water. The nitronate form s initially with any base but with water it doesnt stick arou nd very long. I'm not sure
what would happen, but theres enough informa tion to say theres a risk o f s o m e r e a l s o d i u m m ethylenenitronate turning up if
this is done in m e t h a n o l a n d k e p t c o o l .
Axt D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 11:49 PM

I just tried adding NaO H to the NM responsible for the first post here (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=3130), this NM I believe to be "cut" with m ethanol. The reaction was m uch slower and puffed up to a grey/green
powder before turning brown.
So I tried again, this tim e filtering the salt out shortly after addition so to catch the green/grey powder (white when dry). This
powder burns very fast like blackpowder so I gather that unless there is another interm ediate between the NaO H -> NaCH2NO 2
-> Brown shit, then its the white powde r that is in fact th e nitronate, and the reason that the brown powder burns well when
collected from the NM/NaO H reaction is due to a partial yield of the nitronate.
The white powder does not ignite in contact with NM, the r e f o r e d o e s n t h a v e a p p r e c i a b l e a m ounts of NaO H , a n d d o e s i g n i t e i n
contact with H2SO4. When added to water it will dissolve before the solution turns brown suggesting its decom position to the
brown shit.
Do you know any physical properties of sodium m ethyle nenitronate to confirn this?
Axt D e c e m ber 23rd, 2003, 12:07 PM

T.t.t ... you people. 2 mins searching Federoff vol. 1 gives NM + NaO H(aq ) --> (O2N) C H2 . CH (:NOH) or m ononitroaceldoxim e
Its written funny and im not sure which way to decipher it, som e o n e s h o u ld confirm that (pg. 16). Dont know if thats the liquid
or the brown ppt as it also has the NH4 and K salts as C 2H3N2O3NH4 and C2H3N2O3K respectively.
T h e n t h e r e s a n o t h e r r e f e r e n c e o n p a g e 2 7 t h a t g i v e s C H 3 N O 2 + KOH --> C2HK2NO4. So im confused, this is the salt of

nitroacetic acid that I think you mentio ned before Marvin. Its described a s being "a powerful explosive". And when mixed in aq.
solution with silver nitrate/lead acetate /m ercurous chloride produces a flame sensitive ppt. Ag salt being strongest.
Voryon S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2004, 10:41 AM

D o e s a n y o n e h a v e i n f o r m ation if the NaCH2NO2 or the other nitronates are toxic?

Has anyone information about the velocity of a detonation or ab out the lead block expansion, or about it's sensivity to friction,
heat, flame, shock?

I have just initiatet 3-4g NaC H2NO2 with 2g BP in a stoppered plastik tube.
Than I have put under a big pot cover. BO O M !
The cap flyed about 4m high. (without NaCH2NO2[only 2g BP] it flyed about 30cm high)
I has a little bit bigger velocity than 0.5g MHN wich I testet just, too, by the same way.
T h e c a p f l y e d a b o u t 3 - 3 , 5 m high and it gave white smoke (maybe the MHN was not fully detonatet).
That sounds good for streching or m ixing with other explosives or for easy low-cost IEs (Initiating Explosive s)...
I will m a k e a video of this next week.
Sorry about m y bad English.

Rsert, How did you make it? T his thread is m ostly about NaO H + NM failing to pro duce NaCH2NO 2 as far as we can tell. What it
d o e s p r o d u c e m i g h t b e u s e f u l , b u t i t d o e s n t s e e m to be very chem ically stable, and real sodium m ethylene nitronate isnt
either.
nbk2000 October 8th, 2004, 01:19 PM

S o u n d s m o r e l i k e t h e 2gm s o f B P e x p l o d e d , a n d n o t t h e n i t r o n a te.

I have put the 3g SNN it in a thick test tube (plastic) and but an half opened cracker in it.
The cracker does stopper the test tube for few seconds which will be enough that
the preasure, flame and the heat of the BP will initate som e HEs and IEs (include MHN, Maltose ocanitrate).
But this will not work everytim e .
My digital cam era is broken by video o f a n d e t o n a t i o n o f 1 0 0 0 g A P .

Next week, i will get another, than I will make some pictures and m aybe videos of it and its detonation....

Uups, it should be "put" and not "but" an it sch o u l d b e " 1 0 0 g A P " a n d n o t " 1 0 0 0 g A P " , t h a t s m u c h t o d a n g e r o u s .
I'm sory about my bad English!
In the future, use the "edit" feature to correct any m istakes in your posts. Rather than cre ating a new post highlighting those
m istakes - Anthony
bobo October 9th, 2004, 09:45 AM

MHN is m a n n o s e h e x a n i t r a t e , a n d t h a t c o m p o u nd can b e initiated by flash powder as far as I know. Anyway, the non-primary
e x p l o s i v e s m ight be initiated by heat but as it seem s, the explo sion is of a bad quality in many cases.

Mannose?
Y o u d o m ean Mannitol, correct?
Sarevok October 9th, 2004, 08:18 PM

Mannose ( (2S,3S,4R,5R)-2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxyhexanal ) is usually used as a synonymous for mannitol ( (2R ,3R,4R,5R)-
hexane-1,2,3,4,5,6-hexaol ), but this is not true. They are different type s of carb ohydrates, as you can see by their differen t
c h e m i c a l n a m e s . M a n n i t o l ' s m olecule is like a m a n n o s e m olecule, but with an OH single-bonded to the rest of the molecule
i n s t e a d o f a n O d o u b l e - b o n d e d t o t h e r e s t o f t h e m o l e c u l e ( b o t h " r e s t s o f t h e m olecule" are identical).
Anyways, by MHN, I'm sure he m e a n t m annitol hexanitrate.
nbk2000 October 11th , 2 0 0 4 , 1 2 : 3 5 P M

In this field of study, one does NOT assume anything! ALWAYS get clarification!
Still have 10 fingers and wish to keep it that way. :)
The_Rsert October 11th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 2 : 5 8 P M

Yes, I m ean mannitol hexanitrate and not m annose hexanitrate.
You can use it as a power boo ster for a primary explosive.
I think MHN is the best power booster for prim aries, because it's fairly stable, cheap, does not decom pose, and you can initiate
it with flash powder or BP under high pressure.
Instead of it you can use nitropenta or som ething like its stabillity and power.
:)

Sorry, bur m y cam ere a is destroyd again ;).
Has anyone tried to make lead, copper, silver or m ercury nitronate?
It should be easy to prepare...
Just mixing calcium n itronate (NM and CaO) with a heavy m etal sulfate (if heavy m etal nitronate is good water solouble) in
water and filter out th e precipatet calcium sulfate (insolouble), then evap orate the water and dry the heavy metal nitronate.
Or when the m etal nitronate is poorly water solouble, use sodium nitrona te instead of calcium nitronate(because of
the good water solubilty of precipating sodium sulfate)
then filter an d dry cautiolsly the precipatet heavy m etal nitronate.
B u t b e c a r a f u l , b e c a u s e m a y b e t h e h e a v y m etal nitronates should be very sensitv to shock and friction!
At the tim e I'm out of heavy metal sulfates but soon i will get a kg bag copper sulfate. Th en i will test it...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP vs Flash
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View Full Version : AP vs Flash
Cyclonite D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 04:04 AM

W hile I was back hom e I conducted so m e e x p e r i m e n t s w i t h f l a s h a n d A P . T h e f l a s h I u s e d w a s G e r m a n d a r k a n d K N O 4 3 0 % /
70% respectively. I filled some small bottles with 10g charges of each and buried them both about 1 1/2 ft in heavy soil.
T h e F l a s h r e s u l t e d i n a l o u d t h u d a n d a f a i r a m ount of dirt being thrown about 10 -15ft in the air and AP hardly moved any
dirt and was accompa nied by a fireball that see ped up through the soil. I was under the im pression that AP had quite a bit
m o r e p o w e r b u t i t d o e s n t s e e m that way. I w a s t h i n k i n g t h a t t h e F l a s h c r e a t e s m o r e g a s a n d i s s lower so it m o v e s e a r t h
better, but im not sure.....W hat are your thoughts on th is?
xyz D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 05:41 AM

If your AP made a fireball then it probably deflagrated instead o f detonating.
The most likely cause for this is that it wasn't p roperly dry, AP needs to be very dry to work properly.
fire vs. water D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 07:36 AM

KNO4?? is that a m i s t a k e a n d y o u m eant KNO3 ? or ?
I've never heard of a substance called KNO4...
Guerilla D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 11:01 AM

H e m e a n t K C l O 4 . I f s t a n d a r d 7 / 3 f l a s h h a s a V o D o f a p p r o x i m ately 1500 m /sec and m ost of the p roducts form ed are in a solid
state right after the com b u s t i o n , t h e r e s e e m t o be nothing that would m a k e f l a s h have considerably m ore brisance than ap,
a l t h o u g h f l a s h r e l e a s e s a l o t m ore heat during the burn/detonation and thus raises the gas pressure. Unfortunately I cant say
anything from experience as I have never been privileged to KClO4/Al flash..m aybe your ap just deflagrated as said.
NoltaiR D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 01:53 PM

It has been a little while since I have played with AP.. but it has interested m e that the wh ole APrc (AP and rubber cem ent)
hasn't caught on m uch further than SafteyLast (I think that was his nam e) blowing up a phonebook with som e .
AP in any form takes a little experience before you can get wanted results and I know that HEs with high VoD will never m o v e
dirt nearly as well has som ething with a low VoD (such a s flash, BP, NH4NO3, etc).
But check out the APrc.. the VoD is lowered som ewhat but the overall power seems to be amplified whether confined or out in
the open.
tom haggen D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 03:46 PM

How much is the VoD lowered? Som ewhat is a very vagu e unit of m e a s u r e m ent.
NoltaiR D e c e m ber 15th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Seeing as how I have no way to m e a s u r e t h i s I d o n ' t h a v e a n y n u m b e r s . . .
scarletmanuka D e c e m ber 18th, 2003, 12:01 AM

Instead of RC I use celluloid because it is at least a little energetic, but AP should have better hea ving power than flash.
Besides I would like to see 0.1 gram s o f F l a s h v a p o u r i s e a n a p p le.
FinnBell D e c e m ber 18th, 2003, 02:54 AM

W h e n I m a d e A P p u t t y ( f r o m ping pong balls) I filled about 3/4 of a film canister with stra i g h t A P a n d t h e n t h e s a m e a m ount
of AP with the AP putty and me and m y friends (in a daydream that is) used the first charge of straight AP on a m a i l b o x , a n d i t
s e e m ed to rip it apart pretty good pretty much leaving m ost of it torn up and all. But when we used the same amou nt of AP
putty it seem ed to turn it inside out if that m akes sense. Like it ripped it up but not as m uch as th e first ch arge but this tim e
the whole box completely cam e off of the stand. Much more sim ilar to when we used to used crater m a k e r s . I m guessing this
is because of the NC in the ping pong balls. I have never tried rubber cem ent.
By the way Noltair, after the APrc dries is it still kinda rubbery or does it g et hard like AP putty? And about h ow long does it take
to dry? Cause my AP putty took what seemed like years. It was actually like abou t 4 days but thats entirely too long.
Desmikes D e c e m ber 18th, 2003, 09:49 PM

Cyclonite, there is obviously som ething wrong with your AP. Even if you light that m uch AP at night in a pile, it will probably
detonate without ptoducing any visible flame. If it was confined and underground and still deflagrated - the re is definitely
s o m ething wrong with it. 10g would m a k e a s i g n i f i c a n t b o o m a n d I d o u b t t h a t f l a s h c a n p o s s i b l y m easure up to it.
McGyver Decem ber 22nd, 2003, 10:26 PM

AP putty dries really fast, if yo u r u s i n g a c e t o n e a n d N C . I a c t u a l y h a d t o a d d e d s o m e m o r e a c e t o n e i n t o t h e m i x d u r i n g t h e
procedure because it was drying so fast. It should be left to dry for half a day at least, because when i used mine after about
an hour of drying it exploded but wasn t very powerfull(d idnt even sratch the glass i taped it too). T h e a m o u n t i u s e d p r o b a b l y
weig h e d a r o u n d 1 5 g .
Cyclonite D e c e m ber 23rd, 2003, 10:53 AM

I was thinking along the lines of it not being quite dry, I m a d e a l a r g e a m o u n t a n d i t s e e m e d d r y e n o u g h b u t c o u l d b e m o r e
s o . Y e s I d i d m e a n K C L O 4. It was quite confined though, I would think it would have still high orde red. If it was just a little
d a m p I figured it was just a little safer to work with. It wouldnt stick to an ything but would leave a slight wet residue on m y
knife blade.
McGyver D e c e m ber 23rd, 2003, 08:58 PM

AP doesn't work well when its wet, put it under a lam p for the night. I did a test once, i put about .5g of it o n paper. After it lit,
it burned a h o l e t h o u g h t h e s h e e t o f p a p e r . I d id the same with som e damp AP, it made a fire ball but didn't do anything to
the paper.
blindreeper D e c e m ber 23rd, 2003, 09:13 PM

DO NOT put any explosive under a heat source to dry it out! Apart from the danger of over heating what if it is left on to long
f u c k s u p a n d the bulb blows or som t h i n g a n d s e n d s h o t s h a r d s o f g l a s s a r o u n d . T h e A P w i l l g o b o o m ! O r if the lam p falls over
= hot lam p = AP + desk + lam p GONE!
It m ay sound over sa ftey cautious but there is no such thing in this feild. But please DO NO T EVER speed up the drying process
by h eat when it comes to explosives!
McGyver D e c e m ber 23rd, 2003, 09:47 PM

Never had a bulb exp load before, i guess it could happen.
Mumble D e c e m ber 24th, 2003, 05:21 PM

I d o n ' t r e m e m ber the person, but a senior m e m b e r , h a d t h e i r A P e x p l o d e o n t h e m from heating with a lam p. It was sitting on
a desk. I think it blew out a nearby window. If someone knows what I'm talking about could you post a link ?
If speeding up the drying is necesary, I've heard a light spraying of the wet crystals with Isopropanol can speed it up. The
m ost heating I'd ever apply to an explosive, expecially som ething like AP, would be to put in on top of the water
h e a t e r ( m ayb e 3 0 t o 3 5 d e g r e e s )
kingspaz D e c e m ber 24th, 2003, 06:04 PM

H e a t i n g a p e roxide to m ake it dry quicker...not the best plan really.
better is to suck the thing dry. place the filter p aper on a thick wad of kitchen towel. this will suck o ut most of the moisture. the
wad will need replacin g every hr or so. then after 3 hrs put some CaCl2 in a plastic box, put another kitchen towel wad over
that then put the filte r paper on it. now put the lid on nice and tight and leave over night. thats as fast drying as it gets round
were i live. high hum idity and high precipitation rate coupled with a low average temperature mean s drying is very difficult.
heres an equation to learn:
heat source + primary explosive ---> BOOM!
not 99% of the time, but why take the risk?
patience is a virtue as are fingers.
Sparky D e c e m ber 24th, 2003, 06:40 PM

M u m ble, the incident you are talking a bout happened to Anthony. Here is the top ic in the archive:
http://odin.p rohosting.com /~forum two/jan01/20011012 -3-000228.htm l
T h e p i c t u r e s a r e g o n e f r o m t h e t h r e a d b u t y o u c a n s e e t h e m in the Dream s video m a d e b y THeRAPIST. The thread for this is:

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2267&highlight=dream s+forum +video
The pictures of the desk with the whole blown in it is from the accident.
Also, in case you're interested there is some fo llow up about the incident:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=559
Personally fo r drying stuff out I'm a big fan of dessicators. Som e calcium chloride road salt in the bottom of a tupperware
container works nicely.
EP D e c e m ber 24th, 2003, 08:53 PM

The pictures can be found here if you scroll down to "W o r k b e n c h M i s h a p "
http://krim zonpyro.com/various/
McGyver D e c e m ber 25th, 2003, 12:37 AM

W ow, that looks like the sam e setup i had! Exept mine didn't explode, and i'll be sure to avoid drying AP this way in the future.
Mr. Yuck D e c e m ber 25th, 2003, 01:48 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/pro/m r.yuck/4thjuly3mov.wmv
scarletm a n u k a :
"...AP should have better heaving power than flash. Besides I would like to see 0.1 grams of Flash vapourise an apple."
FP is m uch m o r e o f a h e a v i n g e x p l o s i v e t h a n A P . A h e a v i n g e x p l o s i v e p u s h e s t h i n g s o u t o f t h e w a y , b u t a s h a t t e r i n g e x p l o s i v e
does just that, it shatters. Although AP is not brisant, it is com pared to FP. So your AP would vaporize an apple, it would not be
heaving.
That video I posted contains several flash powder blasts, thought I m ight just add that.
Nihilist_666 D e c e m ber 26th, 2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Mum ble
I d o n ' t r e m e m ber the person, but a senior m e m b e r , h a d t h e i r A P e x p l o d e o n t h e m from heating with a lam p. It was sitting on
a desk. I think it blew out a nearby window. If someone knows what I'm talking about could you post a link ?
If speeding up the drying is necesary, I've heard a light spraying of the wet crystals with Isopropanol can speed it up. The
m ost heating I'd ever apply to an explosive, expecially som ething like AP, would be to put in on top of the water
h e a t e r ( m ayb e 3 0 t o 3 5 d e g r e e s )
I h e a r d s o m ething like that before, som e guy was dryin g out AP on his d esk with a lamp while he was across the room ball
m illing some thing. The AP detonated and blew a hole right through his desk ram m ing parts of it through the carpet. He was
lucky he wasnt killed.
If you want to speed up the drying just wash it with m ethylated spirits or another alcohol while it is in the filter.
tom haggen January 1st, 2004, 03:35 PM

Hey Mr. Yuck , t h o s e a r e s o m e pretty impressive blasts for being flash po wder. I was just wondering what type of flash
compositions you were using?
Mr. Yuck January 2nd, 2004, 02:28 AM

That was standard 70 /30. I was using Germ a n d a r k 5 0 0 m e s h . S o m e of the devices in the rocks we re not exactly quartersticks
either.
nuclearattack January 30th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 2 : 2 3 P M

After C yclonite's thread i decided to m ake some tests with AP, Flash and AP putty.
I tested the charges under 20 cm of earth and the charges were made with the same kind of confinem ent and detonator (1gr
AP). I noticed that Flash produces m o r e g a s b e cause it's able to m ove m ore sand then AP, but AP putty (NC and AP ) is more
powerfull then Flash. It is m ore brisant and it m oved a lot of sand, far more then Flash. I also thin k that Cyclonite's AP was
wet.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nitrocellulose? Something wrong.
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View Full Version : Nitrocellulose? Something wrong.
nuclearattack January 7th, 2004, 05:13 PM

hi!
this days i tried making some nitrocellulose, i searched for nitrocellulose synthesis in the forum and also in powerlabs.org, after that i decided to use this ratios:
25g H2SO4 98% (boiled until white fumes appear from 38% H2SO4)
10g ammonium nitrate
1g cellulose (pure cotton for first aid)
i have mixed h2so4 with AN until all AN w as dissolved and than i putted the cellulose in it.
after that i putted the beaker in a hot bath at 45 C for 1 hour.
i have neutralized the nitrocellulose in the water with sodium bicarbonate and i have let it dry.
with few words i followed all the standard procedure to make NC but it seems that something w ent w rong!
the NC doesn't burns fast (deflagrate) it burns as the pure cotton does. i tried to burn it on open flame and it is a bullshit. w hat's the matter? i tried to remake it after that but it
doesn't works!
reading others posts about nitrocellulose synthesis seems a simple and working procedure to make NC (i don't know another metod except for the one using H2NO3 instead of
the AN) but i think that it is more difficult.
Has anyone encountered those kind of problems?
How have you resolved those problems?
i'm very interested about NC because i w ant to make some dynamite and plastic explosives with it.
thanks to all of you for replies!
kingspaz January 8th, 2004, 10:16 AM

i had similar problems untill i used drain opener H2SO4 so i concluded the problem to be w ith the H2SO4 not being of sufficiently high concentration since i also used to attempt it
using boiled down H2SO4. try boiling the H2SO4 down even more or go to a plumbing type shop and get some 'acid based drain opener'.
Dave Angel January 8th, 2004, 03:03 PM

I've made NC once using drain opener H2SO4 and KNO3. Mine also burnt fairly pathetically, w hich I put dow n to under nitration or lack of purification, (I used sodium carbonate
to neutralize acid remaining after w ashing, perhaps some remained).
I'm going to try again soon, I'm thinking that possibly using harsher conditions, a 2 step nitration and a more thorough purification should do the job.
nuclearattack January 8th, 2004, 03:04 PM

so the matter can be the insufficent acid conc, but how much have i to boil it?
in a post i read that when white fumes appear (not w ater vapor but dense fumes) is better to continue to heat the acid for 15 minutes to be sure to reach the max conc. i made
it and the result w as a dense trasparent acid slightly stinky. i think this is a good conc, however i noticed that during the acid heating the acid doesn't boil like w ater it is quite,
without bubbles.
another thing: after the nitration process i tried to dissolve the NC in the acetone...something happen because when the acetone has gone the NC is in a different state, more
dense and white colored. it doesn't burn quickly but i think this means a partial nitration. isn't it?
what is the right look of the 98% h2so4? is like my boiled h2so4?

Wash the cotton first with dilute NaOH, or some strong detergent or something.
Then rinse it WELL, many times, with DISTILLED water.
Then dry it in an oven at 100*C or slightly more, to make it ANHYDROUS.
Don't trust the "w hite fumes" thing when concentrating H2SO4. If the room-temperature acid doesn't turn cotton black in a few seconds, it's not strong enough.
Neutralise the NC well, wash it many times, give it a good rinse w ith hot urea solution (read COPAE. Urea is good...), then rinse with more distilled water.
Dry it WELL - even when it feels dry, it can still have a good % of moisture in it.
Assuming you follow those, and you have a good ratio of reagents, you can't go wrong. Also, do make sure that your cotton specifically says that it is 100% cotton...
tom haggen January 8th, 2004, 05:45 PM

I found that using density tables to check the concentration of my boiled dow n H2SO4 w orks quite well. I like to concentrate my ow n that w ay you know there are no impurities.
Although I haven't purified H2SO4 as of yet. I just start off with clear and clean dilute H2SO4. I've herd that drain opener crap is contaminated. Further more NC that I've bought
at the store doesn't seem to have that fast of a burn rate.

NC bought at the store has been processed and made into a more dense mass (can't remember the word for this, like w hen you have NC/acetone and you leave the acetone to
evapourate, the plastic mass of NC). the strore bought stuff thus has a low surface area:mass ratio so burns slow as not much is exposed. fibrous NC has many air pockets,
hollow fibres, etc meaning a large surface area is exposed to the flame front, so it burns like a bitch.

NC that I've bought at the store doesn't seem to have that fast of a burn rate.
Where can you buy solid NC over the counter, except as flash paper in a magic shop or finished smokeless powder for reloading? I've bought raw, unprocessed bulk NC, but I
needed an ATFE license to do so.

i think he means smokeless powder...
SpiffyVision January 8th, 2004, 07:46 PM

After the NC is made, does the nitrating mixture have any use? I want to use this method: http://ww w.angelfire.com/empire/megapyro6/Pyro/NC.html

Yes I did mean smokeless powder. Well you learn something new everday. I was unaware that homemade NC had such a fast burn rate.
Dead mAn Walkin January 9th, 2004, 04:14 PM

Can you use HCI in the sunthesis of NC? HCI can't be too concentrated as pure HCI is a gas. If you can use it, what would the method be?
Blackhawk January 9th, 2004, 09:41 PM

I'm going to say "no, you idiot" here because HCl will never be concentrated enough for the procedure. The purpose of the H2SO4 and xNO3 is to produce HNO3, nitirc acid, w ith
which to nitrate of all things. Now the H from HCl would w ork (I think, correct me if there is some reason it w ouldn't) except for the fact that as it is actually a gas disolved in
water, as you yourself said you w ill never get it much more conc than ~35%. Dosn't the fact that the synth at the top of the page ask for 98% H2SO4 (boiled up from 38% )
give you any hints as to w hy HCl won't w ork? why w ould you think that HCl would work at 35% while H2SO4 w ould only w ork at 98%? HCl hasn't got any magical properties of
intense acidification.
T_Pyro January 9th, 2004, 11:22 PM

I don't get it. Why is it that people get the idea that just because HCl is "yet another strong acid", it can be used for nitration? 98% H2SO4 is required for the formation of the
nitronium ion, which is essential for nitration. A lot has already been said on the topic. Dead mAn Walkin, search before you post.
nuclearattack January 10th, 2004, 06:29 AM

Mr.Cool
you said that if the cotton doesn't turn black in few seconds it means that h2so4 is not enought concentrated. In another procedure i read that the finally NC is w hite/yellow ...so
what is the right colour? white or black?
another question: what is the right look of 98% h2so4? i tried concentrating it to the limit but it seems to be only more dense, the colour is the same except it is slightly yellow .
Anthony January 10th, 2004, 08:09 AM

The H2SO4 is also required to soak up water formed during the nitration. Without a dehydrating agent, the concentration of acid would drop too low, and the nitration would
stop.

OK, I just made some NC... I mixed 7.2 grams of KNO3 with the 12 mL of sulfuric acid, which gave me a really thick slury. When I added the cotton, I had to w ork it in really
hard, I couldnt manage to even put half a gram of cellulose. It ended up looking like a small mass as it was nitrating, now Ive cleansed the cotton and it has a reddish yellowish
hue out to it. Its had about 10 and a half hours to dry, some of it still has some moisture in it. I tried burning a very small sample that seemed to be dry and it burned with an
orange flame, no poof though like ive seen on the videos...

nuclearattack, I think what Mr. Cool meant w as that to test if the sulphuric acid is concentrated enough, you see if it will turn cotton black quickly. When doing the actual
nitration you w ouldn't want this to happen so you add the cotton to the mixed acids / acid and nitrate, not cotton to sulphuric acid and then the nitric / nitrate.
My concentrated sulphuric acid from drain cleaner is a dense yellowish liquid once I've boiled it good. I think I've seen lab sulphuric acid that has this appearance too so it sounds
about right.
Mumble January 11th, 2004, 03:27 PM

Mine always burnt with sort of a flare before it was dry. Once dry I get a nice poof though. Yours should poof once its completely dry. Just because a portion seems dry doesn't
mean it is. I'd say give it a good 24 to 48 hours. Thats about how long mine took. I also dried it under a lamp for some extra heat. When I was doing it I just kept adding the
cotton. It doesn't look like it will fit, but if you keep adding it, it w ill soak up the acid and proceed to work.

Will a common resperator (the paper filters w ith the elastic bands that go around your head) work to block the nitric acid gas thats created? That stuff makes you cough like no
other, I w ould have added more cotton if I had one, its just that the gas got annoying.

I don't think that type of respirator will be effective. I'd definitely consider buying a half face respirator with organic vapor filters as I've found these can block NOx to some
extent despite not being specifically designed to do so.
vulture January 11th, 2004, 06:29 PM

Use ABE filters, they keep out NOx. Organic filters only keep out organics with a boiling point higher than 65C.

Hmmm... makes me w onder what my filters must be then... I know they block high ammonia concentrations so that gives them K as w ell as A rating, and this was the only
type of filter available (apart from the dust filter) at the DIY store.
vulture: Do you get your ABE filters from lab supply or is there a more w idely available source?

i use a military gasmask. the filter contains many porous layes of activated charcoal. its clearly visible in the filter opening when unscrewed from the mask. i don't know about
other filters though.....

I get them from the hardware s tore. They're not cheap though, 18 for 2 filters and my face mask uses 2 at a time.

Yes the replacement cartridges from the B&Q hardware store in the UK are about 13 for 2. Maybe one could just refill them with activated charcoal from the pet shop (for fish
tanks), though I w ouldn't stake my life on them!
As a side note, if you don't have the luxury of a gas mask or full face respirator then swimming goggles are handy w hen working w ith formaldehyde and ammonia.
[Edit] spelling....

gasmasks can be had from military surplus shops for less than 30. then 5 for an out of date filter and you're sorted.

ah thanks kingspaz, I'll have find one and pay them a visit sometime. I'll have a look out for some other goodies whilst I'm there too, surplus trioxane or hexamine fuel tabs
maybe...

Activated charcoal might stop V and G agents, but it doesn't stop small inorganics like HCN, NOx and other nasties.

Between these two, w hich one if any would be the best?
http://store.yahoo.com/cdnn/m1gasmasw fil.html
http://store.yahoo.com/a2zoutlet/newgasmawine.html

http://store.yahoo.com/a2zoutlet/newgasmawine.html I'd go with that one, protects against -Hydro cyanic acid, cyanogens chloride, arsine, phosgene, chloropicrin,
bromomethane, lewisite gas, mustard gas, sarin, vx gas, toxic smoke, The plague, cholera, anthrax, radioactive dust.
Thats just my personal opinion.
Sparky January 12th, 2004, 12:52 AM

Blindreeper: :eek:
"MASK01 Retail: $169.00 Discount price: $19.95"
If I lived in the US one of those w ould be probably on it's way here right now .
SpiffyVision January 12th, 2004, 01:27 AM

It doesnt block cabon monoxide, does that say anything about it that I should know before buying it? Other then it doesnt block carbon monoxide? Maybe because it doesnt
block it, the mask doesnt block other things?
Bert January 12th, 2004, 02:19 AM

Nothing (that I know of) w ill deal with CO except a self contained air supply. It can't be filtered out by activated charcoal.
Edited to reflect the fact I don't know everything...Here's a mask that WILL convert CO (http://w ww.safetyinfo.com/safetyinfo/html/equipment/disaster/disaster-
smokemask.htm)
nbk2000 January 12th, 2004, 05:19 PM

There are filters that catalytically oxidize CO into CO2, which is then absorbed by soda-lime. I believe these type of filters are available as mine rescue equipment.
Surplus gas masks are asking for death.
Remember the saying "You get w hat you pay for?". It especially applies to life and safety equipment. Spend $200 on a brand new mask and filters from someone like MSA,
rather than $10 at the local surplus store. You only have to take one breath to find out that your mask doesn't stop (Insert one-breath lethal chemical here) before you die.

Surplus gas masks are asking for death if your handling CO? Really all I plan on handling is the NC. Maybe more things once I actually get some beakers and a distiller...

You're making NC so you're handling NOx fumes, which are just as lethal as CO, only the symptoms will show with severe delay. So it's not because you're not noticing a
headache that you're not being intoxicated. I wouldn't use surplus filters for NOx and other small molecules (ie SO2, HCN) since they're not being stopped by activated charcoal
IIRC.
Anthony January 12th, 2004, 08:20 PM

I see a surplus mask as being a comfort thing, rather than required protection. I.e. if working with w ar gases, a mask you can be certain of would be essential. Working with
HNO3 vapour, NOx, NH4 is something else. I'd class these things as unpleasant, but not immediately threatening. Many people handle exposure to them without any protection,
using basic ventilation, staying upw ind, controlled breathing (i.e. turning away from the bench to inhale) etc. So if a cheap mask fails you, you're only back to where you w ould
have been.
In other w ords:
"Low" risk - cheap/uncertain mask possible

High risk - no fucking about

Anthony, I wouldn't classify NOx as low risks. They're vicious inhalation poisons in low concentrations.

vulture, maybe my gasmask filters have something else in them also. NOx doesn't pass through, NH3 doesn't, can't remember anything else inorganic right now that i've
worked w ith using it...HNO3 doesn't either.

What kind of gas mask do you have, spaz?
Anthony January 14th, 2004, 01:36 PM

I thought my inplying that NOx w as low risk might cause a response.
I agree that it's nasty stuff, and I wouldn't want to be trapped in a room full of it. Although, it isn't like HCN where a half lungfull may well cause death. In the quantities
encountered by most pyros (a few hundred grams of mixed H2SO4 and KNO3), I personally wouldn't classify it as high-risk.
Perhaps I'm biased tow ards my own experiences - I avoided it without many Personal Protective Equipment, and suffered no effects besides the acrid smell.

spiff, i have a UK army issue S10. check out some surplus shops. the prices of gasmasks should have dropped down a fair bit by now after they were stupidly high after 11/9
(thats dd/mm ;)).

man I want to get an israeli made gas mask so bad! they are 29.90 us$. They are effective againts NBC agents. The Israeli government issues them to there citizens for free.
We americans have to pay for them. Kind of Ironic our government is being jewish with the israeli made gas masks. The best respirators sold around here at the hard ware
store are 50 bucks and they are effective against SOx I don't think they are effective againts Nitrogen dioxide and I wouldn't want to find out. They sell Israeli made gas masks
around here somewhere but I have yet to find them besides the internet. They are by far a superior gas mask
nuclearattack January 23rd, 2004, 05:35 PM

To Mr.Cool:
Thanks for your help, i followed your procedure about nitrocellulose synthesis and it worked very well! The problem was the H2SO4 concentration, now i'm able to make a good
final product.
Well, now it's time to think about nitroglycerine and then...dynamite!
Thanks a lot Mr Cool!
I saw your site...very good, i like your photos and the way you made the site!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > barium chrom ate substitution
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Mike76251 January 17th , 2004, 07:07 AM

Since barium chrom a t e s e e m s to be so hard to find...........is there a substitution for it in fuses?
blindreeper January 17th , 2004, 07:15 AM

I h a v e a g o o d substitute search! Try other chrom ates, why ask to be spoon fed, try it yourself and then come back and post
"Since barium chrom ate is so hard to find for use in fuses I have discove red a good alternative to be xxxxxx" Now that would
be a good post, how bout' you try it eh?
vulture January 17th , 2004, 07:36 AM

Barium chrom ate is piss easy to m a k e f r o m a s o l u b l e b a r i u m s a l t a n d N a 2 C r 2 O 4 . T h e b a r i u m chrom ate will precipitate.
kingspaz January 17th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 3 : 2 3 P M

i'm going to lock this but leave it here since vulture has provided som e u s e f u l i n f o .
m ike, you will recieve HED for being the god of all things that live in shit.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Azides from Hydrazine Salts GB128014
and GB129152
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View Full Version : Azides from Hydrazine Salts GB128014 and GB129152

Having obtained the full texts for two old British patents related to
a s i m plified m ethod for producing azid es , I am sharing this
obscure and interesting inform ation with others who may wish
to experim ent with and elaborate upon this pro cess .
G B 1 2 8 0 1 4 , C o m plete Specification ,
I m p r o v e m e n ts in and relating to the Production of Azides
application date: June 17 , 19 18 No. 9952 / 18
complete accepted : June 17 , 1919
I , W illiam Richard Hodgkinson , C.B.E. , of Ordnance College ,

W oolwich , London , S.E. 18 , Professor of Chemistry and Metallurgy ,
do hereby declare the nature of this invention and in what mann er
t h e s a m e is to be performed , to be particularly described and
ascertained in and by the following statem ent :
This invention relates to the p roduction of azides .
The object of the invention is to provid e a process of producing

a z i d e s f r o m salts of hydrazine without the employment of
e t h y l b e n z o a te or the like , and the formation of benzoyl hydrazine .
Acco rding to the invention , salts of hydrazine are diazotised
by m eans of a suitable nitrite under such conditions tha t the
reaction m ass is at no time so distinctly acid as to redden
litm us paper , but appears on the border line o f acidity and alka linity .
The conditions of acidity under which the reaction is carried out
acco rding to the invention , are preferably com parable with the
conditions of acidity as indicated by litm us paper , of ,
for instance a solution of boric acid . Thus in accordance with
the invention , the nitrite solution is brought together with a
salt of hydrazine in approxim ately the proportions required on the
basis of theory to diazotise the hydrazine , under such conditions
that the acidity never exceeds the degree of acidity indicated above ,
and an acidified salt of the m etal of which the azide is required ,
is introduced into the mixture , or alternatively the mixture
is added to the solution of the salt of the m eta l .
F o r e x a m ple , silver azide is formed by adding a neutra l solution

o f h y d r a z i n e s u l p h a t e a n d s o d i u m nitrite in molecular proportion s
to a solution of silver nitrate of a degree of acidity with nitric acid
enabling the conditions in regard to acidity set forth above to
be realised , while avoiding the precipitation of silver sulphate .
Thus , for ex a m p l e 1 3 0 g r a m s of hydrazine sulphate is converte d
to the neutral hydrazine am m o n i u m s u l p h a t e , w h i c h i s m o r e s o l u b l e
in water than is the simple hydrazine sulphate , by the addition of
a m monia solution , the mixture being made up to about 500 ccs .
To this solution conta ined in a vessel in which it can be violently
agitated , the calculated am ount of sodium nitrite dissolved in
500 ccs. of water is added slowly so that the tem p e r a t u r e d o e s n o t
rise much ab o v e 3 0 d e g r e e s C e n t i g r a d e .
The reaction resulting in the formation of sodiu m a z i d e m a y b e

represented by the following equation :
N2H4-H-NH3-H-SO4 + NaNO 2 ------> NH4HSO4 + NaN3 + 2 H2O
From this equation it will be seen that the solution would becom e acid
as the result of the reaction were it not for the fact that sodium nitrite
is never pure but is alkaline , the alkali in the nitrite ordinarily
bein g sufficient to m aintain th e solutio n on the border line of
acidity and alkalinity , and addition of a small quantity of alkali
bein g m a d e s h o u l d s u c h n o t b e t h e c a s e . T h e s o l u t i o n t h u s m a d e
c o n t a i n s s o d i u m a z i d e , s o m e u n c h a n g e d r e a g e n t s , a n d the
by-products of the reaction .
The sodium sulphate and sodium azide contained in the solution

m ay be separated by crystallisation bu t prefera bly the solution
is added gradually to an acidified solution of silver nitrate produced
by a dding 1. 0 cc. of 70% of nitric acid to 1000 ccs. of a
normal solution of silver nitrate which is violently agitated
during such adding , the tem perature of the reaction m a s s b e i n g
prevented from rising m u c h h i g h e r t h a n 3 0 - 4 0 d e g r e e s C e n t i g r a d e .
W i t h a d e q u a t e c o o l i n g a n d a g itation the yield of silver azide may
be obtained equivalent to 85 % of the calculated possible amount .
Instead of adding the diazotised solution to the acidifed silver nitrate
solution , the latter m a y b e a d d e d t o t h e f o r m er .
W hen starting from hydrazine nitrate which is also an acid salt ,

a s o lution of amm o n i a s h o u l d be added in order to form the
n e u t r a l h y d r a z i n e a m m onium salt or , if desired , the neutral
hydrazine sodium salt may be produced , the rem aining steps
of the process being then carried out as above described .
I n p r o d u c i n g l e a d a z i d e , a s o lution of a hydrazine salt

of an acid which will not result in the precipitation of
a n i n s o l u b l e l e a d s a l t o f t h e a cid in question , for instance
hydrazine nitrate , is em ployed , and the reaction m a s s
in this case should be only just acid , as lead azide is
particularly easily acted on by acids , while in producing
silver azide the acidity of the reaction m a s s m ay be greater
in order to avoid the precipitation of silver sulphate
a n d a g i t a t i o n i n d i c a t e d i n t h e f o r e g o i n g e x a m p le .
T h e a z i d e s p roduced in accordance with the invention

are usually a morphous , and in this state they are
s a f e r to handle than when crystalline .
Having now particularly described and ascertained the nature

of m y said invention and in what m a n n e r t h e s a m e is to be
performed , I declare that what I claim is :
1. The process of producing azides from salts of hydrazine

in which salts of hydrazine are diazotised by m e a n s o f
a s u itable nitrite under such conditions that the reaction m a s s
is at no time so distinctly acid as to redden litm u s p a p e r ,
but appears on the border line of acidity and alkalinity .
2 . T h e p r o c e s s a s c l a i m e d i n C l a i m 1 in which the conditions

of acidity under which the reaction is carried out according
to the invention are preferably com parable with conditions
of acidity as indicated by litm us paper , of , for instance ,
a s o lution of boric acid .
3. The process of producing azides from salts of hydrazine ,

substantially as hereinbefore described .
Dated this 10th day of December , 1918
Regarding th e s e c o n d p a t e n t G B 1 2 9 1 5 2 ,
It sim ply states that another m ethod of isolating
s o d i u m azide is to agitate in cool water a suspension
of silver azide with slightly less than th e theoretical am ount
o f s o d i u m c h loride for a few m inutes , and filter the precipitated
silver chloride . The residual solution o f sodium a z i d e i s
e v a p o r a t e d o n a s t e a m bath to yield a concentrated solution
of sodium azide . The reaction proceeds accord ing to the equation
AgN3 + NaC l -----> AgCl + NaN3
T h e s o d i u m a z i d e p r o d u c e d m a y b e u s e d i n d o uble decom position

reactions to form wha tever other azides are desired .

W ow, that's a fascinating process if it works as it says. Preparing sodium azide in this way sure beats bubbling am m onia into
liquid sodium m e t a l t o m a k e t h e a m id e, and then reacting that to form the azide . It looks like lea d azide will still have to be
m ade from s o d i u m azide in the usual way.
Hydrazine sa lts should be well within the m e a n s o f a m a t e u r e x p e r i m ento rs. In fact the procedure to m a k e h y d r a z i n e o n m y
website is de rived from the procedure to m a k e h y d r a z i n e sulfate; instead of concentrating the hydrazine hydrate thus formed
from am m o n i a a n d b l e a c h , o n e a d d s s u l f u r i c a c i d . T h e f u l l p r o c e d u r e h a s b e e n p o s t e d o n T h e F o r u m before.
I don't m uch care for purifing the sodium azide with silver nitrate... too expensive. I suppose by "The sodium sulphate and
sodium azide contained in the solution
m ay be separated by crystallisation" is fractional crystallization?

Yes , the "Hodgkinson Process" for azides would sure
greatly sim plify things when going the synthetic route
from O TC precursors .
H y d r a z i n e i s m o r e e a s i l y m a d e f r o m urea and 10 percent

s o d i u m hypo chlorite pool chlorinator . I have done it a
dozen times . The hydrazine is isolated as the monohydrazine
sulfate . There is a fully detailed description of the method
a n d i t s r e f i n e m e n t s p osted at the Hive and also over at
Mad Science . Feel free to im port those files he re if you wish .
T h e m o r e m odern but more difficult route to sodium a z i d e

requires freebasing the hydrazine from the sulfate and extracting
the hydrazine hydrate with m ethanol portions . Then the methanolic
extract of hydrazine hydrate is basified with a slight equim o l a r e x c e s s
of sodium hydroxide , and treated dropwise with a slight equimo l a r e x c e s s
of isopropyl nitrite , the reaction being performed over about two hours
with the reaction flask in a pla in ice bath . A clo s e d g l a s s s y s t e m that
can m aintain a slight pressurization also com plicates things for the
m ore modern method , although it works very well and yields pu re
crystalline so dium azide directly .
T h e H o d g k i n s o n p a t e nt describes a m ethod which requires no elaborate

glassware or volatile precursors . A good stirrer and som e ventilation
is about all that is required in the way of special equipm ent .
The only com plication is that close control of pH is absolutely essential

for the reaction to work . A good narrow range color indicator and
p e r h a p s a p H b u f f e r s c h e m e o f s o m e s o r t w o u l d b e r e f i n e m ents
which could be the ba sis for experim ents .
The Hodgkinson pate nt method is probably general and there is room
f o r m a n y e x p e r i m ents to elaborate on the process .
For m any purposes it will not be needed to isolate the sodium a z i d e

but only to use its solution . O r t h e s o d i u m a z i d e c o u l d b e i s o l a t e d
by fractional crystallization . The silver azide double decompostion
m ethod is sim ply a shortcut route to a solution of pure sodium azide ,
and the silve r is recyclable in the process .
Regarding th e p r o d u c t i o n o f l e a d a z i d e b y H o d g k i n s o n s m ethod ,
t h e h y d r a z i n e s u l f a t e m u s t b e first con verted to neutral hydrazin e nitrate and diazotised , and the solution treated with lead
nitrate . Hydrazine su lfate can be treated with calcium nitrate and the calcium sulfate
filtered , to leave a solution of hydrazine dinitrate .
This is neutralized an d then treated with sodium nitrite ,
to form a s o l u t i o n o f s o d i u m a z i d e u s e f u l f o r p r o d u c i n g
lead azide .

Since obtaining copies of these patents I have been studying carefully
the texts in preparation for experiments with Hodgkinsons patent process .
Marvin , or others who may be knowledgeable about the chem istry

involved , I invite your input a n d i d e a s .
I have two significant , ( yet reconcilable ) issues

concerning the Hodgkinson patent .
I n t h e a b o v e patent there is inform ation which I must

legitim ately question , regarding both the mechanism
of the reaction and the pH .
Acco rding to Hodgkinsons description of the reaction ,
[ Q U O TE]
The reaction resulting in the formation of sodiu m a z i d e m a y b e
represented by the following equation :
N2H4-H-NH3-H-SO4 + NaNO 2 -----> NH4HSO4 + NaN3 + 2 H2O
From this equation it will be seen that the solution would

become acid as the result of the reaction were it not for
the fact that sodium nitrite is never pure but is alkaline ,
the alkali in the nitrite ordinarily being sufficien t to maintain
the solution on the border line of acidity and alkalinity ,
a n d a d d i t i o n o f a s m all quantity of alkali being m a d e
should such not be the case . The solution thus m ade contains
sodium azide , some unchanged reagents , and the by-products
of the reaction .
[END Q U O T E ]
The observation I can m ake is that even *if* the Sodium Nitrite
used by Hodgkinson was alkaline due to the presence of an
"im purity" of an *add e d * e q u i m o l a r a m ount of Sodium Hydroxide ,
( which is certainly a great deal more than a "sm all quantity"
of added alkali like Hodgkinson describes ) ......
the reaction product would still be so acid as to be m o r e t h a n
sufficient to redden litmus . Let us consider the reaction
equation for the situation I describe and this will be evident .
N2H4-H-NH3-H-SO4 + NaNO 2 + NaOH -----> NaNH4SO4 + NaN3 + 3 H2O
The NaNH4SO4 is a "stipulated com pound" to illustrate acidity ,

but in reality would probably b e an indeterm ina te mixture of
n o r m a l a n d a c i d s u l f a t e s o f S o d i u m and Am m o nia .
There is a ( possible ? ) way of reconciling this descrepancy .

W here Hodgkinson describes preparing a solution of
* n e u t r a l * h y d r a z i n e a m m oniu m sulfate , no particular quantity
of am monia is specified as being added to achieve that *neutral*
solution . There m ay be actua lly present in such a "neutral"
solution an "excess" of alkali not accurately reflected by
the simplified equation for the reaction as written by Hodgkinson .
This excess alkali , together with the u nspecified am o u n t o f a l k a l i
d e s c r i b e d a s b e i n g p r e s e n t i n H o d g k i n s o n s " i m pure nitrite" ,
m ay satisfy the accounting for som e o f t h e m i s s i n g a m o u n t o f
additional alkali not detailed by Hodgkinson .
The second issue regarding pH as described by Hodgkinson relates

to the com parison of the pH required for the reaction as being
comparable to the pH for a so lution of Boric Acid .
The pH for a .1 M solution of Boric Acid is pH 5.2 .
The color change range for Litm us is pH 6 to pH 8 ,
s o a t pH 5.2 , the reaction m ixture would already be
quite red to litmus .....in direct contrad iction with
Hodgkinsons description .
In spite of these discrepancies which seem m ost obviou s

a n d s o m e w h a t p e r p l e xing , I believe that Hodg k i n s o n s
process probably does indeed work , although not all
of the finer details are disclosed completely by the pate nt .
It would be nice to have a more detailed and m odern description

of the process after the subtleties are worked out from
e x p e r i m ents . Only from experiments shall we know
"the rest of the story" about Hodgkinsons patent process
for producing azides from hydrazine salts .
Rosco

Update :
After m any careful ex p e r i m e n t s h a v e b e e n d o n e without success

at reproducing the results described by GB1280 1 4 , I a m r e a s o n a b l y
sure the m ethod described by the patent is BOGU S and unworka ble .
I used pure chemicals , accurately m e a s u r e d a n d c o n t r o l l e d

conditions of pH in different experim ents , in increm ents of
two tenths of a pH across the range from pH 5 to pH 7.2 .
I tried following the patents process description exactly ,

and I tried variations of every sort I co uld contem plate ,
with no joy in producing azides except in useless trace quantity
m ixed with inert undesired by products .
On rare occasion I ha ve encountered this scenario before ,

where a pate nt makes disclosure of a technology which does
not withstand scrutiny . There is no way of being sure about
the validity o f what is reported by a patent except to experim e n t
and thereby put the matter to the test , which I have done .
My "finding" regarding GB128014 is that the inform ation it

discloses is either incorrect or incomplete , and the process
it describes is *NOT* a straightforward nor valid m ethod for
the synthesis of azides .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP calculation program .
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View Full Version : AP calculation program.
Efraim_barkbit February 22nd, 2004, 07:45 AM

Here is a excel program I m a d e f o r d o ing calcu lations o n the reactant ratios in AP synths.
Just enter an am ount of H2O 2 and how concentrated it is, and itll calculate how m u c h a c e t o n e y o u n e e d .
Or you can enter an amount of acetone, and it will tell you how much H2O2 you need.
vulture February 22nd, 2004, 03:54 P M

I'm n o t a f a n o f t h e s e t h i n g s , b e c a u s e it allows people to just m ake AP without knowing a fuck about it.
blindreeper February 23rd, 2004, 03:56 AM

I like it, I was always wondering how m uch AP I could make with a full 500m l bottle of 50% H2O2!
knowledgehungry February 23rd, 2004, 05:17 PM

I agree with Vulture too many kewls will lose hands... but then again... :p.
Bond... C ova lent Bond.... I love it :D

D o e s a n y o n e n e e d t o know a fuck about AP to m a k e i t ?
I think not.
It isnt like its impossible to make without calculated amounts of reactants, and if anyon e spends at least a little tim e h e r e
look ing for AP synths, they will find so much de scribed here just by looking in a single AP thread, that thing s like this doesnt
m atter.
m ix any am ount of H2O 2, with any am ount of acetone, and a little less of any acid, and it will yield AP.
Hell, its sim pler than understanding the recepie for fucking pan cakes...
If a kewl wants to ma ke AP, He will m ake AP, calculated am ounts or not.

that is my belief.
I could have put it on the ftp (if I could connect, I have tried 2 ftp progra ms, but there is som ething fucked up it seem s) that
would elim inate the risk of any kewls getting it, but it would also m ake it unreachable to m ost of those who would appreciate a
program like this...
vulture February 24th, 2004, 06:27 AM

Sure, but your program will en able total fucks to get the m a x i m u m yield out of th eir crapp y chems and we all know they like to
u s e > 1 0 0 g q u a n t i t i e s o f A P a s m ain charges.
The result will be m ore kewls getting m aim ed or killed and m ore chem icals getting banned by soccer mom s.
There's nothing wrong with keeping our hobby a bit exclusive, if you'd like to put it that way.
S o m ebody who's willing to learn will eventually gain acces to better info a nd that's exactly why we shouldn't spoonfeed.

You might have a point there, however its too late for m e to do anything about it now, so its up to the mods to decide about
its continued presence at the forum .
But then aga in, whats for exam ple "the great O TC survey" if not spoonfeeding a t a high level?
Sylla February 24th, 2004, 02:54 PM

I think it would be a far better idea to spend tim e writting lessons about chem istry reactions in AP than a program m to
calculate amm ount of it.
I explain :
I've begun to learn explosive for a year now and I'm still dum b about the theory. I've see n a hundred website talking about
m aking bombs with sodium chlorate and sugar but I only know less than a dozen good ones, like roguesci or sciencemadness.
I s p e n d a f e w h o u r e s a w e e k r e a d i n g f o r u m s a n d I m ust say it's usefull and discuss good theory or hard synthesis threads.
But I'm still newbie with these stuffs and the only book I have is The Chem istry O f E x p l o s i v e a n d s o m e o t h er big ones like
C R C tables. So maybe it would be a better idea (for the one who knows) to make it understandable to guys like m e, who didn't
want to blow things up and only seek sciences (even if we all like a little bit blowing things up -- or we won't be talking about
energetic m aterials).
I know this rem ains basic chem istry that we see at school (and unniversity) but I've seen no websites talking about the ABC of
explosive. So, if some of you has a few houres to spend a weekend, maybe could he write a short pdf file talking about things
stup id for him but usefull for us (us -- the newbies).
I don't blam e Efraim _barkbit cuz he had good intentions (I'm sure he do esn't want to burst people's fingers) and I would
p r o b a b l y h a v e d o n e t h e s a m e if I were sure of my yields form ulas...
V u l t u r e a n d o t h e r s , a s y o u s e e m to be allm ighty, could you give m e s o m e hints ? I really want to learn :D
grendel23 February 25th, 2004, 06:59 AM

A few hints or a short PDF wou ld not be sufficient to allow an understanding of chemistry, even if authored by one of our very
s k i l l e d m e m bers.
Besides, why reinvent the wheel. Polverone has a couple of good chem istry texts and the classic "Chemistry of Powder and
Explosives" on his web page.http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/index.html
It ta kes considerable time and effort to learn a nything worth learning, chem istry is no exception.
nuclearattack February 25th, 2004, 06:46 PM

An Ap calculator m aybe usefull, i think that a stupid knewl will hurt him se lf in any case. I knew a boy (very crazy, stupid....) 3
y e a r s a g o . . . h e d i d e v e r y k i n d o f i d e a h e h a d i n his head without thinking o f t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s .
Now he is dead! I'm an am bulance driver and i drived like a crazy to save him but there was nothing to do for him . He crashed
a g a i n s t a t h r e e a t a b o u t 1 0 0 k m /h with his motocycle. In the past i said lot of tim es to drive slowly but he didn't take care of
this. He did hurt also with an illegal cracker (m ade in an illegal farm i think) and he fired a finger on the left hand. Every day
he was put in troubles or danger.
I think that some kind of people will never change, however in roguesci there is a lot of stuff and advertisem e n t a b o u t A P , s o
even if a knewl has the AP Calculator it's im possible for him to don't know the basics safety rules.
A stupid knewl will m a k e a b i g charge of AP in any case, with or without the calculator.
However this is only my opinion and i hope that people new to the explosives will make everything with responsibility.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Exploding targets
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tjh February 27th, 2004, 02:19 AM

I would like to have some discussion on the topic of exploding targets for those who enjoy the shooting sports. My only other
post, as of this time, was my explanation of the Tannerite exploding targets. I explained that I believe that they consist of a
mixture of ammonium nitrate (AN) and aluminum powder (AL). My own personal mix is with 95% ground agricultural grade AN
plus 5% dark pyro grade AL. This mix produces an amazing and powerful report (meaning explosion) when hit with a high
speed bullet. It is also a tremendously effective booster for ANFO and other hard to detonate explosives. One other Forum
reader, Powdermunkey, replied to my post that he had very good success with this mixture. I would like to hear from other
readers if they had good results, and if they have suggestions as to how the mixture might be safely improved. Ultimately, I
would like a mixture which is cheap, uses AN, and will detonate with a .22 cal. or handgun load. I'd be pleased to hear from
other shooting enthusiasts.
tom haggen February 29th, 2004, 08:53 PM

I think this has been discussed before. I also find it hard to believe that you detonated a NH4NO3 and Aluminum mixture with
a gunshot. NH4NO3 and aluminum is not a sensitive mixture.
tjh March 1st, 2004, 12:43 AM

Tom, my first inclination is to give you a sarcastic rebuke, but I will hold off until you try this mixture out. We are all friends
here, and I believe you are probably from Missouri, the "show me state." This is the whole reason I wanted to start this
thread. It is a mixture that has gone unnoticed a long time. I can assure you that AN prills crushed to about the consistency of
table salt, mixed with 5% by weight 325 mesh or finer flake or dark aluminum will produce a tremendous explosion, either hit
with a high velocity bullet, or kicked off with a weak blasting cap. I generally use German or Indian dark, 600 mesh, but it
works with 325 bright as well. Ordinarily you are correct, AN is not very sensitive. But this mixture, WOW!! I have made literally
thousands of these targets. Most are only film capsules, but probably a thousand 8 oz. milk cartons, too. We also tape 8 oz.
sandwich bags filled with this target mix to 2 liter bottles and gallon jugs of ANFO (5% diesel) and shoot them at great
distance. This mix is a wonderful booster for ANFO. I have totally given up on shooting paper targets. I live for the excitement
of shooting these targets. They give a wonderful shock right back at you when they go off. A nice thing is they completely
disintegrate the milk carton or film capsule. Nothing to mess the place up.
You might wonder, "How can it explode without confinement?" Well, it does, and I'm glad about that. Try it you'll like it. :)
tom haggen March 1st, 2004, 01:25 AM

I was under the impression that Al only intensified the detonation when mixed with an explosive. It makes the detonation
brighter and hotter. I had no Idea that adding aluminum to NH4NO3 would make it so shock sensitive. I still think you are
incorrect. An older member might be able to convince me otherwise. Also I'm from the north. I particularly dislike the south
because they make all Americans look like cowboys to the rest of the world.
tjh March 1st, 2004, 03:03 AM

Tom,
I understand your reluctance to believe me--it's too good to be true. Yes, simply powdered AN with 5% pyro-grade Aluminum
makes it go boom. Sometimes I can't believe my dog drinks out of the toilet either. The water bowl sits right there in the
kitchen. Dumb dog! Yup, it works fine. And by the way, I'm older, just new to this forum. Try, for a moment, to shed your
disbelief and mix up some yourself. You'll see. The boys at www.boomershoot.org are convinced, and will be using this mix
from now on.
VX March 1st, 2004, 06:48 AM

This claim is not all that unbelievable, as it is very possible that what you experience is not actually a detonation of the
ammonium nitrate but instead a fuel/ oxidiser explosion.... similar to flash powder. Obviously your mix is not as sensitive as
flash by a long way, but then as hitting something with a bullet is not very subtle, it doesn't need to be.
Having said that it is possible that you get the AN to detonate as well, I just think this possibility should also be considered.
vulture March 1st, 2004, 07:18 AM

Just make sure this mix doesn't get into conctact with water, which is a pretty damn hard thing to do considering the
hygroscopic nature of ammoniumnitrate!
NH4NO3 ---> NH4+ + NO3-
NH4+ ---> NH3 + H+
6H+ + 2Al ---> 3H2 + 2Al3+
This process is rather exothermic...
Also, the escaping NH3 gas might cause other nasty side reactions if your mixture contains other compounds.
EDIT: Note that this mixture does not suffer from the typical Al + nitrate reactions in basic environment, because of the acidic
nature of ammoniumnitrate. However, acid + Al is just as bad...
Anyways, I doubt this stuff detonates from rifle impact. Deflagration should be possible though.
Did you try the OB mixture yet?

3NH4NO3 + 2Al ----> Al2O3 + 3N2 + 6H2O
I leave calculating the ratios to you...
Also, do not try to protect or stabilize it with bases like carbonates or others!
tom haggen March 1st, 2004, 06:30 PM

I have read that a small percentage of boric acid will stabilize a KNO3 and Al compostion. Is this true for a NH4NO3 and Al
composition.
vulture March 1st, 2004, 06:51 PM

For god's sake Tom, read my post!
tom haggen March 1st, 2004, 10:38 PM

Sorry about that, for some reason all I had in my head after I read your post was "Also, do not try to protect or stabilize it with
bases like carbonates or others!"
But then I pulled my head out of my ass and saw this "EDIT: Note that this mixture does not suffer from the typical Al +
nitrate reactions in basic environment, because of the acidic nature of ammoniumnitrate. However, acid + Al is just as bad..."
tjh March 1st, 2004, 11:22 PM

OK, friends, I did a little homework. So, listen up! ANAL was used extensively as far back as WWI when the Germans were
running out of TNT for their artillery shells. They substituted a mixture of Ammonium Nitrate 86%, Aluminum flakes 8%, and
Stearic Acid 6% (??whatfor, I dunno??). They loaded their shells with this because it worked!! Of course they lost the war, but
hey! It worked!!! (from Tenney L. Davis, The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives, Chap VII, p 368, reprint 1984). Moreover,
Paul W. Cooper tells about slurry explosives containing water saturated Ammonium Nitrate plus a high percentage of
Aluminum--about 20% (Explosives Engineering, chap 4.9, 1996). Although this mix is very insensitive, it works extremely well
with a booster. At the time of the writing of his book, over 4 billion pounds of slurry explosives were produced each year. What
do you think the explosives industry knows that we don't? Another source, Melvin A. Cook in The Science of High Explosives,
talks on and on about the early search for the best permissible explosives. Ammonium Nitrate plus many different fuels were
used throughout Europe and America in mining applications. Many of the fuels were "non-explosive, non-nitroglycerine types,"
and the results were that "literally thousands of patents were developed in America, Europe, and elsewhere, disclosing
numerous and varied compositions of the non-NG, high-AN type." (chapter 1, page 11) As I read on in his book, I continually
encountered the fact about Aluminum sensitizing AN. It was always a main ingredient.
Now boys, let's stop being a bunch of nay-sayers, crying, "It can't work, because it doesn't fit with what I think I already know!
Waaaaaaaa!" Try it and you'll see. No, it isn't like flash. It doesn't burn. It doesn't deflagrate. ANAL is more powerful than you
think. It has been fantastic for targets and makes a wonderful booster in its own right. Put a cap in it and it goes off high
order. Believe me.
On a different note, has anyone tried mixing powdered moth balls with AN? I read that one type of permissible explosive used
Napthalene with AN!! Another used air-float charcoal. Does anybody have experience with these mixtures? Remember my main
objective: the cheaper the better!!
steve smith March 1st, 2004, 11:46 PM

Well, i am here to back up the claim that a mix of AN and Aluminum works like a charm. I am here to prove that this works, at
detonation. (and NOT at deflagaration)
Bare minimum: A mixture of coffee ground AN, and finely ground, flake, aluminum (300+ mesh). A slight dampening of
nitromethane to keep the al dust down is great, but not needed. %'s of al in mix: 1%+ Best bang for the buck, 5%. Have tried
up to 15%, more power. Mixture stays stable as long as no h2o get's involved. Problems with this mix includes chunking of the
ready made stuff (must be broken with hard object to get out of barrel. ) Works in chunk form. If much h2o permeates
through the mix, no go. Dry out, ready to use again.
I originally designed this mix about 2 years ago, after much research. Why was i interested in this mix? Wanted to use better
formulas for having fun, ad target shooting. After using this stuff, i looked up tannerite's patent, and found that he has got
the same mix going, and selling for big bucks and whammies. I believe that he add's some graphite for extra smoke.
Why does this work? Al/Mg finely (flake) powedered added to any mix increases the sensitivity. Look at flash mixes. Hit any
Ox with a hammer, no go, hit with al/mg inside and pop. Although this does NOT work with An, it does increase the sensitivity.
What does Diesel do to An? It sensitizes it! Nitromethane? Well, the AN, if i remember correctly, sensitizes nitromethane... ??
(yes i know, it also provides heat energy)
AN is a VERY stable compound, but as we all know, AN does detonate. It's temp., for detonation i believe is around 840F.
Remember the Texas city accident in the 50's..?? NOthing involved but AN, which reached detonation temp. Anyone wanna tell
me that it deflagarated, not detonated?
The AN/Al mix that i wrote about above does Not burn, rather detontes. I would think that a basic principle of deflagration
would mean if you put an amount of an/al into a hot fire, it would deflagrate. Not so. It takes awhile before it even starts, and
only then, merely burns slowly, and brightly. Not consistently, goes out as fast as it starts. Then restarts. BP and flash do the
same?
Can you detonate flash? Yes you can. Can you deflagrate it? Yes you can. Ammonium Perchlorate is classified as a HIGH
explosive in any mesh size smaller than 200mesh. It even detonates by itself. It is now being used in the patriot defense
missles instead og other HE comps.
I have tried detonating this comp with many different calibers, and velocitys. Only a rifle round will detonate the mix. A .22,
.38, .9mm, 45, .44magnum will NOT set the comp off. A .223 will, every time.
What does a detonator cap do? Provide a shock wave. The bullet must hit an object inside the container in order for the comp
to work. Unless, the container itself is quite durable. A bullet can and does move right through the comp if there is not
compression for the comp. I have hit many non-confined an/al mixes with no luck, nothing. But have take then same comp
and put it inside a container, viola!.
Does anf ANFO mix deflagrate? Can it deflagrate a little, and then detonate? No, it only detonates. Yes, contrary to popular
belief you CAN detonate ANFO mixes with flash. Remember, it's the shockwave that causes detonation, NOT the fireball. I
have set off ANFO comps many time with flash, didn't get very good result, horrible at best, but some of it DID go high order.
Mind you, the shockwave from the flash mix does not go far enoguh to detonate the entire comp, but enough to detonate
some of the mix.
The key here is shock, a shockwave. Ever burned HTMD? Will placing a small amount on top of ANY explosive detonate
anything? No, why? if deflagrates. Confine the HMTD, or use a lot, the yes, yes it will. I don't think anyone would want to
challenge me on that.
Back to what i was saying, flash CAN detonate an anfo mix, but as we all know, so does an hmtd cap. Which to do you think
works better? Want an explosive train? What about using PETN? Try this, ok better be safe, don't try this, but trust me on what
i about to say, as it is really, REALLY stupid, but hey, when your young, your dumb... Fill a Co2 cartridge with flash, atleast 3/4,
no tamping needed. Place in anfo comp, create good confinement (underground), and lgiht the fuse. You get a big-ass hole!
Do the same with and HMTD cap, even bigger, and with a cap and PETN booster, you'll be able to find China!
Trust me on this, my pool man asked questions for weeks, my parents wonder why there were rocks 150ft away where they
didn't belong...
Will simple flash set off anfo? will an m-80 set off anfo? will a pipebomd set off anfo? think about what's happing here, then
see the relationships. You can't tell me that an HMTD cap provides a better shock than a pip full of flash!
What about BP? No, as it does not provide enough energy.
The key here is a shockwave, the bigger, the badder, the best!
Steve
"this is so much fun, it should be illegal... oh wait..."
PS, I am more of a lurker, not a poster, but as you can by my #, i've been around.
:p
tom haggen March 2nd, 2004, 12:36 AM

I would say that HMTD would work as a detonator much better than a confined flash composition. HMTD has much more
shattering power than any flash comp.
"The key here is shock, a shockwave. Ever burned HMTD? Will placing a small amount on top of ANY explosive detonate
anything? No, why? if deflagrates."
While this may be true for HMTD, some primaries and even a large amount of flash will detonate without confinement.
I think I will stick with what vulture says and stay away from mixing Aluminum with compounds that have a low PH level.
P.S. I'm giving you the understatement of the month award. You said you were a lurker. I noticed that you have been a
member since feb 2001, and you only have 4 posts. Thats cool though. Being soft spoken is something I look up to. Is it just
me or is it a pain in the ass to scroll when your writing a post?
tjh March 3rd, 2004, 12:23 AM

:D Yaaay Steve! I am glad someone else has finally spoken of the effects of AN/AL detonating with a mere hit of a bullet. I
was feeling like my words were not resonating with this audience. I think I agree with most of what Steve wrote.
Vulture, as for the problem of keeping the AN and AL mixture from getting wet/damp-- I keep my target mix sealed inside a 5
gallon paint bucket. My reasoning is this: if the paint can keep from drying out, then the ANAL mix can stay dry inside. Just
make sure that the lid stays tight. Besides, the targets have a very short life expectancy anyway. That's what they are
designed for.
Now I hope there are more readers "lurking" out there, who can share their knowledge about good, safe and cheap mixtures
for target shooting. I am still waiting for responses. Anyone tried AN with Napthalene, charcoal, or any other kind of fuel???
Yes, I know of nitromethane, ammonia and aniline mixtures. What I want to know about is CHEAP and SAFE. Any ideas?
vulture March 3rd, 2004, 05:50 AM

Vulture, as for the problem of keeping the AN and AL mixture from getting wet/damp-- I keep my target mix sealed inside a 5
gallon paint bucket.
A paint bucket has not been designed for corrosive substances like NH4NO3 so it'll corrode over time.
Furthermore, this newb offensive (forgive me the expression) that AN/Al detonates is pointless.
Yes, it was used in the war, but in the war they used dets, they didn't fire an artillery shell and then used a sniper to detonate
once it got stuck in the ground. :rolleyes:
A blow can also cause deflagration. If AN/Al would detonate from bullet impact, it couldn't be used for artillery shells. Why?
Because the artillery round is subjected to an equal, if not more powerful, shock when fired.
Furthermore, ordnance in a war zone that'll detonate from bullet impact is plain stupid. No military in the world would do that.
And ammoniumperchlorate can't possibly be compared with ammoniumnitrate.
steve smith March 3rd, 2004, 09:27 PM

[QUOTE=vulture]A paint bucket has not been designed for corrosive substances like NH4NO3 so it'll corrode over time.
Anything corrodes over time. (yes, gold & platinum doesn't, let's not argue symantics) I don't think anyone stores their fun
stuff for a couple of years.
"Furthermore, this newb offensive (forgive me the expression) that AN/Al detonates is pointless."
"Yes, it was used in the war, but in the war they used dets, they didn't fire an artillery shell and then used a sniper to detonate
once it got stuck in the ground. :rolleyes: "
Please elaborate, it doesn't make much sense. dets? -det cord? AN/AL detonates is pointless..? huh, i thought that that was
the crutch of the thread, with how to sensitize the mix even more so a .22 could set it off.
"A blow can also cause deflagration. If AN/Al would detonate from bullet impact, it couldn't be used for artillery shells. Why?
Because the artillery round is subjected to an equal, if not more powerful, shock when fired."
Not true. It all depends upon how the shock is transferred through the casing. As well as what kind of lift is being used. In the
fireworks industry, a slower more "gentle" lift is used for the larger the diameter shell. Why? the stuff inside (flash powder,
stars, casing) went off inside the tube. I don't know --anyone-- that can visually see the difference between a "soft" lift and a
"hard" lift. But you are right, in that the shock CAN cause deflagaration. But, your own rational proved my point. Which is, the
AN/AL mix detonates, and --does NOT-- deflagrate, under ANY circumstance. IF what you say is true, which is, "A blow can also
cause deflagration.", then the AN/AL mix would deflagrate INSIDE the bore of the gun/cannon. The AN/AL mixes WERE used
inside shells, so therefore no deflagration was occuring.
What about a tomahawk missile? How much force is going through THAT nosecone when it impacts at 600-700+MPH, hitting
solid, reinforced concrete, 10 feet thick? Or are you telling me that a number 6 blasting cap provides a better shock? Again,
it's how the shock is delivered. Drop a drop of NG (nitroglycerine) onto concrete, from 10ft, will it go? where's the blasting cap?
Does this mean that the NG deflagrated? I don't think so!
"Furthermore, ordnance in a war zone that'll detonate from bullet impact is plain stupid. No military in the world would do that."
No? What about blasting caps? Modern day ordinance is cased REAL well, and is chemically and manufactured perftectly. What
about the WW2 stuff? I am sure that some of the stuff used in question was a bit questionable. Remember, the Germans
were desperate, the Allies were constanly looking for replacements.
Who's talkign about this using stuff in a war zone? Or do you mean your prior remarks regarding the sniper?
"And ammoniumperchlorate can't possibly be compared with ammoniumnitrate."
Excuse me? in which way? Chemically? How much power, too much power? In which respect? Again, the point was detonation,
and sensitivity.
AL and MG powders SEVERLY sensitize ANY mixture, which is exactly why it is added to some explosives. Yes i know, not all,
but SOME.
Steve ;)
tjh March 4th, 2004, 12:43 AM

Confused? Vulture, why do you bother to respond to this discussion if you think it is "pointless?" Do you feel that if someone
contradicts you, it is an attack on your credibility? We are trying to arrive at some truth here. I mentioned how to store AN/AL
for targets, because someone might believe that it could be left in the open and would absorb moisture from the air. I don't
think your comment about a plastic 5 gallon paint bucket corroding over time has any relevance. None of us will be around in
500 years to dispute this claim. Certainly, the plastic bucket could be around long after you or I leave this this earth.
Obviously, you don't have experience with military explosives. I can tell you for a fact that what they teach in Explosives
Ordinance Disposal (EOD) training in the United States is: Don't try shooting military munitions with a bullet. Indeed, military
explosives can be set off with a bullet impact. In other words, DON'T TRY THIS STUNT, boys!!! It is a nightmare scenario for
anyone trained to work around HE. What nonsense is this when you write that "ordnance in a war zone that'll detonate from a
bullet impact is just plain stupid. No military in the world would do that." What is really stupid is this stupid assertion. We
attempt to do that all the time with enemy munitions. Check an impact sensitivity chart!!!!!!!!!!! Nearly all of the munitions and
explosives in the military would detonate with a bullet impact!! Especially since much of our ammunition is HE tipped. Only
specially designed explosives used for deep penetration on very hardened targets would be able to withstand a direct hit from
a military caliber bullet. Don't think so?!? Try to shoot a hand grenade, mortar round, artillery shell, MK-81, MK-82, etc., at
close range and see what happens. Don't think it will explode?!?! We will read about your passing in the papers.
Maybe you have no regard for the knowledge of "newbies," but you are losing your credibility, despite all of your messages to
this forum. I am interested in continuing to have a dialogue with people with wisdom to share.

You should all read my posts more carefully before jumping to conclusions.
Please elaborate, it doesn't make much sense. dets? -det cord? AN/AL detonates is pointless..? huh, i thought that that was
the crutch of the thread, with how to sensitize the mix even more so a .22 could set it off.
I did not say that the detonation of AN/Al is pointless. The discussion a few replies above these posts is pointless, because
you fail to see the difference initiation makes.
YES, AN/Al will detonate when initiated from a DETONATOR. So it can detonate. However, I have a hard time believing that it
would detonate from mere bullet impact. A bullet at 1000m/s is a piece of shit compared to a detonator exploding at
>5000m/s.
Anything corrodes over time. (yes, gold & platinum doesn't, let's not argue symantics) I don't think anyone stores their fun
stuff for a couple of years.
I once filled a stainless steel pan with NH4NO3. It took less than 2 hours to corrode the shit out of the thing.
But, your own rational proved my point. Which is, the AN/AL mix detonates, and --does NOT-- deflagrate, under ANY
circumstance. IF what you say is true, which is, "A blow can also cause deflagration.", then the AN/AL mix would deflagrate
INSIDE the bore of the gun/cannon. The AN/AL mixes WERE used inside shells, so therefore no deflagration was occuring.
I fail to see your logic.
Ofcourse a blow can cause deflagration. Ever smashed a sensitive flashpowder? Now don't tell me flash detonates... :rolleyes:
then the AN/AL mix would deflagrate INSIDE the bore of the gun/cannon.
Which didn't happen, because otherwise it wouldn't be used for artillery shells! So, I have a very hard time believing that a
bullet hit will detonate it!
In the fireworks industry, a slower more "gentle" lift is used for the larger the diameter shell.
Shells use DEFLAGRATING BP as a propellant. Artillery shells use NC/NG propellants. That's a HUGE difference.
You are proving MY point here! If the explosive in a tomahawk missile can withstand an impact into a wall, how could a bullet
possibly set it off?
Go reread the definitions of deflagration and detonation, because you're confusing things.
You're saying the AN/Al detonated from a bullet impact. Yet you lecture me about how insensitive munitions are to
deflagration.
Well here's a newsflash for you: Something that can provoke detonation, can surely provoke deflagration!
The blasting cap is less than 1% of the total ordnance. Good luck hitting that one in such a fashion that the whole thing goes
off, because they have an arming switch for a reason.
Excuse me? in which way? Chemically? How much power, too much power? In which respect? Again, the point was detonation,
and sensitivity.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about if you can't even grasp the blatant difference in sensitivity and power between
AN and ammoniumperchlorate.
Yes the point was detonation from bullet impact. That is very much related to sensitivity.
Your post must have been one of the most incoherent I've ever seen, because I still don't really understand how you
apparently disproved my point.
EDIT:
Nearly all of the munitions and explosives in the military would detonate with a bullet impact!!
So, RDX, TNT, HMX and others will detonate from bullet impact?
Odd thing that bombs that smash into the ground from 10 miles high at a speed of ~700mph can still be recovered intact
after 50 years?

Vulture, your last response was directed to my message. I want you to think clearly about what you said. You can't seriously
think that shooting a bullet into RDX, TNT or HMX won't cause it to explode, can you? Are you out of your mind!?!? Do you
know how foolish your notion is? When you sarcastically stated that a bomb dropping at 700 mph and being recovered fifty
years is odd, well it isn't. The explosives inside a 500 pound bomb are only a fraction of the bomb weight. The massive steel
casing can protect the explosive core from much of the shock of impact, or alternatively produce a vast fragmentation pattern
of steel shards when the fuse detonates the core. This is why bombs with faulty fuses/detonators fail to detonate on impact,
and are later found intact. Furthermore, the velocity of this hypothetical bomb is merely 313 meters/sec. or less than 1/3 the
velocity of a bullet traveling at 1000 m/s (these are your figures, remember?). The original argument was that AN/AL will
detonate upon being hit by a high power bullet, something like 1000 m/s. Not handgun ammo. Your example clearly supports
what I have been saying all along. For some reason this discussion has hurt your pride. Go back and review your math. If not,
then just let go of it. Your reasoning is very foolish.
steve smith March 5th, 2004, 06:39 AM

You should all read m y pos ts more carefully before jumping to conclusio ns.
I think you should explain yourself better. Confusion is happening here, and you are specifically stating exactly what I wrote
before.
I did not sa y that the deto nation of AN/Al is p ointless. The discussion a few rep lies above these pos ts is pointles s, becau se
you fail to see the difference initiation makes .
If I failed to see the difference initiation makes, then why did I write in my prior posts the following:
D o e s an ANFO mix de flagrate? Can it deflagrate a little, and then de tonate? No, it only detonates. Remember, it's the
shockwave that causes de tonation, NOT the fireball.
As well as:
Will s imple flash set off anfo ? will an m-80 se t off anfo? will a pipebo md se t off anfo? think about what's hap ping h ere, then
see the relation ship s. You can't te ll me that an HMTD cap provides a better shock than a pip full of fla sh!
Lastly:
What does Diesel do to An? It sensitizes it! Nitromethane? Well, the AN, if i remember correctly, sensitizes nitromethane...
AN requires a sensitizer. AN by itself can detonate, but requires such a massive shock, or a massive amount of heat it would
be pointless to use in the explosive world by itself. Obviously, AN can be detonated with different types sensitizers. Why
wouldn t a highly reactive metal powder su ch as Al work the same? Do you know the principle behind explosives ? The two
major parts to an explosion?
YES, AN/Al will detonate when initiated fro m a DET ONATOR. So it can detonate.
So it can deto nate!!?? Wow, thank you fo r that concession, I guess my prio r pointless posts do have a poin t.
What changed your m ind fro m you r prior post statin g Anyways, I doubt this stuff d etonates from rifle impact. De flagration
should be possible though. ? ? ? ?
However, I have a ha rd time believing that it would deton ate from mere bullet impact. A bullet at 1000 m/s is a piece of shit
compared to a detonato r exploding at >5000 m/s.
If I hit you over the head with a whiffle bat at 10mph, would you feel it? Yes. Would you get a headache? No, probably not.
Would you get a concussion? No probably not. Now if I hit you over the head with a baseball bat at 10mph, would you feel it?
Yes. Would you get a headache? Yes, probably . Would you get a concussion? Maybe. If I hit you over the head with a lead
pipe at 10mph, would you feel it? Hell yes. Would you get a headache? Hell yes. Would you get a concussion? Hell yes.
Sin ce I have to be s o clear with you, as we wouldn t wan t any accidents with this stuff, I know this analogy isn t the same as
HE, but it is EXACTLY what I was saying with my prior remarks regarding bullet sizes. All handgun rounds move way too
slowly to set off the AN/Al mix. It takes a rifle round, moving from a .223 at about 3200fps (feet per second) to set the stuff
off. Yes I understand a .223 is really only a .22, but look at the AMOUNT of powder behind that little .22. What about a .50?
Do you thin k THAT would set off a n HE mix? (let s just say you can e ffectively k ill someone at over a mile away!)
A rifle round moving as fast as it does, can deliver FAR more shock to an HE comp that any old blasting cap could. (Perhaps
if it is a military grade ca p, then not) Look at the DIRECTION o f MOVEMENT of shock. A blasting cap will throw ALL of it s
energy (shock/detonation), in a circlular formation. A bullet will CONCENTRATE its force onto ONE point . Ever blow a cap on top
of a brick? Then blown up a cap in a hole, inside the brick? Would the be a difference of sizes of bricks afterward? Maybe the
direction of shock?
Mr. Vulture, do you own a gun? If so, what kind? I think part of the problem here is that your not quite that familiar with guns.
More specifically, your not familiar as to what a bullet can penetrate. Any gun enthusiasts here? Can anyone please
enlighten Mr. Vulture what a .50 can go through? Perhaps an engine block? The amount of energy a bullet has, is
u n b e lievable. And when you start taking into effect hot loads, steel core, ja ck eted, an d so .
I once filled a stainless steel p an with NH4NO3. It took les s than 2 hours to corrode the shit out of the thing .
I am sorry, I have to be completely rude here. I once had a canary once, she bred, had kids and died. It was a happy life,
sitting in the cage all day. One day I let her out, she shit all over the place though.
How again was the above relevant to the conversation? Ohhh, yea, we were discussing HDPE (High Density PolyEthelyene)
Wait, no, this still made no sense, as one was plastic, the other was a metal. Did anyone say anything different regarding
metal? No! We were talking about HDPE, the same stuff your claiming reacts so much over time with AN. Then answer me
this: Why do AN manufacturers ship and store the AN they produce in large plastic, mostly HDPE conatainers? If you want me
to take a picture of a bag, I ll be more than happy to oblige. I am NOT surprised but the stainless reactin g with NH4NO3, I
know how it is. I b elieve you. I ve seen it myself. Or were you trying to make an analo gy? But yo u forgot one very important
item Mr tjh had, this mix he stores is dry, and is NOT open to the surrounding air. My AN is stored dry as well, but not mixed.
It is also stored in the manufacturers bags
I fail to see you r logic.
You fail to see many things. I see your logic, but fail to see the practical reasoning behind it.
Of course a blow can cause defla gration. Ever smashed a sensitive flashpo wder? Now don 't tell me flash detonates...
Who me smash flash before? I ll just rest b y re-quo ting an above post by myself: Why does this work? Al/Mg finely (flake)
powdered added to any mix increases the sensitivity. Look at flash mixes. Hit any Ox with a hammer, no go, hit with al/mg
inside and pop. So yes I have smash ed flashpowder. Mr. tom hagge n does state the following: While this ma y be true for
HMTD, som e prim aries and even a large amount of flas h will detonate without confinement. So h e believes that flash CAN
detonate. Now, I ALSO do believe that flash can detonate, if given the proper conditions.
Which didn't happ en, because otherwis e it wo uldn't be used for artillery shells! So , I have a very hard time believing that a
bullet hit will detonate it!
Please read my post below, as it really sums it all up. Your above concession then reinforces my statement that AN/Al mixes
DO detonate. (as the AN/AL comp WAS used in shells, it MUST detonate) Lastly, after you read the third to last paragraph,
read the above again, about how a bullet will detonate a high explosive mix.
Shells use DEFLAGRATING BP as a propellan t. Artillery shells use NC /NG propellants. That's a HUGE difference.
Yes, which is why they use METAL for their casing, and the pyro industry uses chipboard. The same idea applies. (Yes I know,
the military is trying to kill people with their warez, and the pyro industry is trying to ohh and ahh the crowd.) How is the initial
shock being transferred!? This is key here, as below proves exactly what I was stating. Please completely through, then
respond.
Quote:
You are proving MY p oint here! If the explos ive in a tomahawk missile can withstand an impact in to a wall, how could a bullet
possibly set it o ff?
Or shall I quo te you at this point You should all read m y pos ts more carefully before jumping to conclusio ns.
Look at what I state d in m y prior pos t, which was It all depen ds upon how the sho ck is transferred through the casing. No
listen u p, this line is absolutely key here. Let me state this ONE MORE TIME : It all depen ds upon how the sho ck is
transferred through the casing.
Have you ever seen the designs of modern missiles? Goto www.globalsecurity.org for a peek, you will learn a lot! The nose
cones are key. The nosecones are the parts of a missile that take the initial impact, and absorb the shock of the collision. As
well as the fram e of the missile. Again, it s h ow the shock is being transferred here, an d what takes the sho ck .
Go rere ad the d efinitions of deflagration and detonation, be ca use you're confusing things.
No, I don t think yo u completely understand th e mechanics of a detonation. I am not s ayin g that I am a scientis t at White
Sands, but do understand the real world scenarios with AN/AL mixes, as well as other explosives. Any many principles of
explosives.
Take a 50lb weight, glue an M112 block to it and drop it from a height where it would reach terminal velocity. (a block of M112
is 1 lbs of C4) Make sure when the package hits the ground, the M112 hits FIRST, then the 100lb weight behind the M112.
Now Mr. Bond, Covalent Bond, the question to you is: will the block of C4 detonate. Do you feel lucky?
You're saying the AN/Al deton ated from a bullet impact. Yet you lecture me abou t how insens itive munitions are to
deflagration.
No, not all. I gave practical proof and AN/AL comps, and Mr. TJH gave plenty of references from the past wars, and the current
explosive industry. I only pointed out, as to how insensitive the AN/AL mix was to deflagration. Anyone who knows anything
about comp C4, or who has been in the military (not including the paper pushers/support personnel) knows how C4 can be
burned like a campfire to warm their foodstuffs in time of need.
Well here 's a newsflash for you: Something tha t can provoke de tonation, can s urely provoke deflagration!
Really? Especially since a detonation includes a fireball?
The blasting cap is less than 1% of th e total ordnance. Good lu ck hitting that one in such a fashion that the whole thin g g o e s
off, because they h ave an arming switch for a reason .
Just refer to the end, or above, thank you.

You haven 't got a clue wh at you 're talking about if you ca n't even grasp the blatan t difference in sensitivity and power
between AN a nd amm onium perchlorate.
Actually, I showed EXAC TLY th e o p p o s ite, you sh owed no knowledge. You simply sta te d that a m m onium perchlorate can't
possibly be compared with a mmonium nitrate. By what reasoning? I asked in what respect. Simply restated: in which way?
Chemically? How much powe r, too much power? In which respect? Notice I aske d TWICE, how much powe r, too much power? I
showed a good deal of understanding of the properties of AP. I also stated that AP in mesh sizes of 200mesh or greater, is
classified as a hig h explosive. I take it that I still haven't g ot a clue what [I am] ta lking about [I] can't even grasp the blatant
difference in sensitivity and po wer between AN and ammonium perchlo rate?
Your post must h ave been one of the most incoherent I've ever seen, because I still don't really understand how you
a p p a rently disprove d my point.
If I was really so incoherent, why was it that you have conceded that the AN/AL comp DOES detonate? Maybe this point will
show you the light, and you will be able to turn over a new leaf and see the world through new eyes.
So, RDX, TNT, HMX and others will deton ate from bullet imp act?
Yes, yes they would. Try shooting RDX, TNT, HMX with a 50cal. Now lemme ask you this, as you are standing next to the
targe t, do you feel lucky? (cause my aim is really, really good , and I won t miss the explosive comp .) Do you realize as to
how sensitive RDX is? Have you ever read about the sensitivity test, such as the impact, or drop test? Just to let you know,
Tenney L. Davis s b ook, on page 21, 2nd paragraph describes th at a 2 kilogram weigh t droppe d from 60-180 cm will cause
the e xplosion o f TNT. Odd thing that bombs can smash into the ground from 10 miles high at a spe ed of ~700mph ca n still
be re co vered , (as quoted from you) and no t suffe r more force a 2 kilogram weigh t from 60-180 cm s h igh to not go o ff.
Odd thing that bombs that s mash into th e ground from 10 miles high at a spe ed of ~700mph ca n still be recovered inta ct
after 50 ye ars?
Yea, odd that they reach terminal velocity after 1 mile, making no difference as to what altitude they are dropped from. True,
as the atmosphere gets thicker, they do slow down , but let s n ot argue sema ntics. Maybe, for some reason, the casing to o k
the shock? What ab out the detonato r, which was probably mercury fulminate , or so mething just as sensitive. Wouldn t you
agree that at leas t THAT (the detonator) would explo de!!?? Well, it didn t, s o therefore the shock would have had to go
somewhere.
Ple ase go back and study up some more. Preferably som e more field experimen ts will he lp and aide you in your quest for
knowledge of covalent bonds. If your ever in area, please send me an email, and well go break some covalent bonds
together.
With admirable pleasure,
Steve
:cool: :eek:
tom haggen March 5th, 2004, 06:48 PM

"AN by itself can detonate, but requires such a massive shock, or a massive amount of heat it would be pointless to use in the
explosive world by itself."
--Now that is untrue. Have you ever herd of mining? people use straight AN all the time in mining operations. It is detonated
with a booster.
At first I was only skeptical about an AN/AL mixture being able to detonate with the impact of a bullet. I really didn't have any
proof otherwise. Then I was reminded when reading one of vulture's posts that the military uses AN/AL amongst other things in
their artilary shells. If a projectile filled with AN/AL can be shot out of a tank, with stand the impact of hitting it's target's
exterior, penatrate it's target and detonate inside, this is all the proof I need.
EP March 5th, 2004, 08:12 PM

I know this isn't a democracy, but I vote everyone just shut up until somebody else actually tests this and reports on the
results. :rolleyes:
I'm planning on testing AN/Al in the next couple weeks hopefully, but using a detonator because:
a) I don't have enough AN that I want to risk wasting it.

and
b) I don't have a suitable gun, although my friend did recently order a .357 rifle that might work and he will have before long.
Anybody want to settle this so they can stop arguing?

Mining? yes i have heard of it, i think it's usually called, "if it ain't grown, it's mined.."
Wasn't under the impresion that modern day mines use straight AN, everyone i have talked to use's ANFO bags or mixing
trucks... Sorry, my bad, no problem.
TJH actually brought up the whole military aspect. Wasn't quite sure as to the military aspect of the comp until his post.
There is a lot more to just penetrating armor, it completly depends upon what type of armor your hitting, what casign design
you have an so on.. I ain't no engineering scientist for that, don't look at me, but it ain't that simple! There is currently a 1st
gen JDAM sitting 110ft below the surface of the *cough* nevada desert right now, with full ordinance inside. No one is asking
to resurrect it. This was in response to the "possible" "conflict" in iraq, 1991.
I'll personally send 10lbs of AN to the first respondent with a mailing address willign to try. Or at least, find a supplier of AN in
their area...
Stevo
vulture March 6th, 2004, 07:43 AM

Steve, I'm having the impression we're not understanding eachother correctly which leads to a lot of confusion.
So it can deto nate!!?? Wow, thank you fo r that concession, I guess my prio r pointless posts do have a poin t.
Yup, but it requires a detonator. The bang you hear could originate from a deflagration as well as a detonation, that's all I'm
saying. I was trying to point out to you that because it goes BANG on bullet impact, doesn't necessarily means it detonates.
If I hit you over the head with a whiffle bat at 10mph, would you feel it? Yes. Would you get a headache? No, probably not.
Would you get a concussion? No probably not. Now if I hit you over the head with a baseball bat at 10mph, would you feel it?
Yes. Would you get a headache? Yes, probably . Would you get a concussion? Maybe. If I hit you over the head with a lead
pipe at 10mph, would you feel it? Hell yes. Would you get a headache? Hell yes. Would you get a concussion? Hell yes.
Let me use an other analogy. If you poke me hard with a baseball bat, sure, I'd get a nice bruise, but poke me hard with a
sharp but small knife and I bleed to death.
A 2g HMTD detonator can indeed be more effective than 10g flash in detonating an explosive.
Don't forget that AN/Al is actually also a flashpowder. And generally, initiating deflagration requires alot less energy than
detonation. Flashpowders have a tendency to deflagrate when struck hard. I yet have to see the first scientific proof that flash
can make DDT.
A loud bang, even using unconfined material, is not proof of detonation.
Try lighting KClO3/sodiumbenzoate or KMnO4/atomized Mg. You'll get a deafening bang without confinement, but it won't
crack (well maybe crack due to excessive heating) or cut your test bench.
For some reason this discussion has hurt your pride. Go back and review your math. If not, then just let go of it. Your
reasoning is very foolish.
That's the second time you start hammering about pride. I thought I'd just ignore because the irrelevance of it in this
discussion, but you're starting to piss me off.
Steve has brought up some good arguments (albeit a little bit hard to grasp for me) to refute my point. All you do is saying
what kind of expert you are, how right you are and how somehow this discussion is related to my pride.
Sounds a bit hypocritical to me if you're trying to establish yourself as an expert in such a way.
You somehow seem to think that I post on this forum to satisfy my own pride.
Wrong. I post on this forum to help people out and to make sure they don't hurt themselves. Sometimes I make mistakes,
everyone does. I'll admit having made a mistake if someone shows me I'm wrong with reasonable arguments.
Namecalling is not a reasonable argument.
Try asking other members who've been around here a tiny weeny bit longer than you if I like to abuse this forum to establish
my pride. :rolleyes:
Guerilla March 6th, 2004, 09:07 AM

While this has not much to do with AN/Al, I was quite surprised how easily I was able to set off an AN/Zn mix some time ago,
with a HMTD-cap though.. The mix was not in OB as I thought having that much metal in it (~45% Zn), it would be even
harder to detonate. So I started with only 15%.
50g of this mix was put on a wooden board (1 inch thick) in a zip-lock bag (its very moisture sensitive) and initiated with
approx. 1g HMTD. To my surprise the board was blown into pieces and it seemed the detonation was complete. At least it gave
a noticably louder report than a mere blasting cap.
I will do more tests with this and with bigger charges, maybe with AN/Al too if I can grind down decent quality powder with the
blender method. Im truly impressed if I can set it off with my .22 though, but I can try it as well. Maybe later with a .308 if I
get the license.
I side with EP; its better when people also use their first-hand experience to back up their claims..
tjh March 6th, 2004, 06:05 PM

Vulture, you seem to be getting what I have stated mixed up with Steve Smith. I was the one who said that it was foolish to
think that shooting a bullet into RDX, TNT or HMX wouldn't set it off. It certainly can. Ever heard of the hammer drop test?
Have you taken a glance at shock sensitivity test data? Military explosives are viable targets because they will detonate from a
variety of projectiles. They are frequently reported in after-action intelligence debriefings as "secondary explosions."
Vulture, I have offered considerable evidence that AN/AL detonates. I have backed up my assertions time after time with
published evidence (read my posts). I have cited the books I referenced. You seem to ignore what I have said, and continue
to make the foundless assertion that AN/AL is merely a flash powder. As I understand it, the term "flash" is a pyrotechnical
term. In no way is it flash. It is not spark sensitive nor flame sensitive. It has never been used in the pyrotechnics field as
flash. Nowhere in my research, nor in any pyrotechnics book is it listed as flash, nor included AN as an ingredient in flash.
You have not responded to my evidence, offered opposing evidence, or conducted your own tests, but still continue to write
negative statements concerning this issue. I am providing you with reasonable arguments which you do not respond to.
Moreover, I have found others with experiences with AN/powder metal mixtures that detonate--Powdermunkey, Steve Smith's
responses, the people at boomershoot.org, a guy named Phoenix KEA in another thread, and now, perhaps a new mixture of
AN/zinc from a contributor named Guerilla. All you have offered is your assertion that AN/AL is flash. Do you have any evidence
other than your own words? Ever consider that you are wrong?
I am not resorting to name calling. However, in the face of evidence, when a person can't defend an argument with new or
contradictory evidence, then to continue to argue must be a matter of pride. I am certainly not trying to extablish myself as
any expert. I no longer work around explosives in my job, and am not a trained chemist. I have genuine hands-on
experience, though. I also have an open mind.
My apologies to all of you who are reading this thread to gain some new insight into safe, easy, cheap, and powerful target
mixtures. I know I am drifting off the subject. If it interests you, try the AN/AL (95%-5%) mixture and see for yourself. Also,
please keep this thread alive with your own experiences and other formulas. I think I'll try the AN/Zinc mix, next.
Above all, when you go out shooting, HAVE A BLAST!!
MightyQuinn March 8th, 2004, 01:47 PM

Ok.
I am a NewB so please let em knwo if I break any rules.
I have used these exploding targets extensivly. I can assure you that there is detonation. I can assure you that there is NO
flash. I can assure you that there IS power behind them. The more you mix, the louder and more powerful.
It DOES seem to matter that the contents is somwhat contained (ie. plastic bottle) I have had limited experience with smalller
containers such as pill bottles film vials. Now slightly larger vitamin containers work fine. I have also mixed 3 or 4 targets and
taped them in to a ziplock bag......this detonates just fine.
I have some links to video I shot while shooting these targets.
**Edit These were shot with my Yugo Mauser in 8mm.
**Edit2: You should right-click on these and choose "Save Target As"
http://www.50caliber.net/video/barrelsplit.wmv
http://www.50caliber.net/video/twigtoss.wmv
http://www.50caliber.net/video/rockblast.wmv
OK....If I am going to be flamed and banned for this, I better go get my NOMEX underware on!
Quinn Out.

I can assure you that there is detonation.
How do you know? Did you measure the VoD?
Notice how the container get's thrown up into the air and comes back down in one piece, rather than being shred to
irrecoverable pieces.
Same goes for the tree branch.
Do you have an "after" shot of the last vid? Because it's quite hard to see what kind of damage was done.
What makes you think you'd get banned for this?

How do you know? Did you measure the VoD?
Actually, I did not, so what I said is speculation. I will reaserarch methods of measuring VoD and get back to you on this.
Notice how the container get's thrown up into the air and comes back down in one piece, rather than being shred to
irrecoverable pieces.
The 55Gal plastic barrel takes quite a beating with that charge. I have further closeup footage of the damage to barrel. I will
dig up the tape again and reconvert if you like.
Same goes for the tree branch.
The tree branch weighed in at about 70lbs (I called it twigtoss for irony)
Do you have an "after" shot of the last vid? Because it's quite hard to see what kind of damage was done.
What makes you think you'd get banned for this?
Been reading for a bit and it seems like a tough place. :D

I noticed that the plastic barrel takes quite a beating, but it's plastic after all.
If it would have an appreciable VoD, both the barrel and the tree branch would have been cut instead of thrown. Ofcourse,
below 4000m/s there isn't much cutting action left, but it's hard to prove or disprove that detonation occurs then.

I also have PLenty of video, if anyone would be intersted. Let's just say, hours and hours of it. All targets, all being done with
a .223.
Where should i start?
Let's start here, i've been away for awhile.
"I was trying to point out to you that because it goes BANG on bullet impact, doesn't necessarily means it detonates."
What about if the same amount leaves the same size crater, bang, and rocks through the air?
"If you poke me hard with a baseball bat, sure, I'd get a nice bruise, but poke me hard with a sharp but small knife and I
bleed to death."
true, good point. But as you can see, the sharp knife penetrates and causes severe damage, that other is just blunt trauma.
You onl;y need to START a detonation, once it starts, it goes. (yes to a point, i understand, but the idea peoples...)
"A 2g HMTD detonator can indeed be more effective than 10g flash in detonating an explosive"
EXACTLY, which is why i wrote the following: "Will simple flash set off anfo? will an m-80 set off anfo? will a pipebomd set off
anfo? think about what's happing here, then see the relationships. You can't tell me that an HMTD cap provides a better shock
than a pip full of flash!" and before this i wrote "Does anf ANFO mix deflagrate? Can it deflagrate a little, and then detonate?
No, it only detonates. Yes, contrary to popular belief you CAN detonate ANFO mixes with flash. Remember, it's the shockwave
that causes detonation, NOT the fireball. I have set off ANFO comps many time with flash, didn't get very good result, horrible
at best, but some of it DID go high order. Mind you, the shockwave from the flash mix does not go far enoguh to detonate
the entire comp, but enough to detonate some of the mix." notice i DO SAY, "horrible at best, but some of it DID go high
order."
"A loud bang, even using unconfined material, is not proof of detonation."
How could one prove detonation to you then, Mr Vulture? You have any equiptment that you wanna spare? Rather than tell us
how NOT to do something, tell us HOW to prove soemthing to you, short of spening thousands of $$$$$$$$.
"Try lighting KClO3/sodiumbenzoate or KMnO4/atomized Mg. You'll get a deafening bang without confinement, but it won't
crack (well maybe crack due to excessive heating) or cut your test bench."
Yes, what are you doing. Did you say try LIGHTING?? Try taking some Pot. Cholrate, (KCLO3) adn AL powder, put a cap to it.
You gonna tell me it won't detonate?
"That's the second time you start hammering about pride. I thought I'd just ignore because the irrelevance of it in this
discussion, but you're starting to piss me off."
TJH has already responded to this, but i just want to make clear to EVERYONE that i DID NOT write this, thank you very much!!!
"I was quite surprised how easily I was able to set off an AN/Zn mix some time ago," -Guerilla
Hmmm, i have tried this mix before, got nothing. Will try again, but with 1lb charges, and more precision. Also with bullets.
Didn't have any luck.
I know it has already been said, but i jsut want to reinterate this. AN/AL mixes ARE NOT FLASH, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. to
prove this, i will requote what i wrote in a post above (my origianl post) :"The AN/Al mix that i wrote about above does Not
burn, rather detontes. I would think that a basic principle of deflagration would mean if you put an amount of an/al into a hot
fire, it would deflagrate. Not so. It takes awhile before it even starts, and only then, merely burns slowly, and brightly. Not
consistently, goes out as fast as it starts. Then restarts. BP and flash do the same?"
"How do you know? Did you measure the VoD? "
I'm sorry vulture, but how the hell do you think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion?
Really quick tape measure? Seriously, you know a nuke when it goes off by what it looks like, not by gamma radiation
detectors, not by fiber optic readings. I have a video camera, will post some .mpgs some time.
"Notice how the container get's thrown up into the air and comes back down in one piece, rather than being shred to
irrecoverable pieces."
This is exactly waht is SUPPOSED to hapen with a barrel liek this. I will make an assertion, a very STRONG assertion that this
barrel is made from HDPE, or at least a COUSIN of HDPE. Lemme tell you something about HDPE, the beauty of HDPE, IT
DOES NOT SHATTER. It merely shreds, or strings out long and spiny... This is why it is used inthe fireworks industry for
launching shells. If a shell goes off INSIDE the tube, the tube DOE NOT SHATTER. The tube "holds" the explosion and
mushrooms out . Lastly, AN mixes, ANY kind of AN mix, HAS VERY LITTLE CUTTING POWER, IF ANY AT ALL. IF you take 10lbs
of c4 and 10lbs of ANY AN mix, the AN mix WILL leave a larger crater, period! Why? AN is a "heaving" explosive, which
"moves" material. It does not shatter rocks. I have done the c4, AN test, and it's true. C4 detonates at sucha high velocity, it
cuts threw everything, AN moves material. THis is jsut another why it is used in the quarrying industry.
VUlture, we have been trying to prove that an/al mixes detonate. Why don't you give solid evidence why it can't, from a bullet.
Or at the VERY minimum, a process how to measure the detonation? Please, no massive financial burdens, or time consuming
devices. I have a video camera, and have plenty of video i have shot (and am willign to tape the process). I will perhaps .mpg
them and ul them to the server.
And i also ask you on a personal level, how much actual FIELD experience with explosives do you have? How many different
types of explosive, in large quatities have you played with? I am NOT talking about 1-20gram mixes, nor am i talking about
one or two 10lb shots, i am talking about multiple 20-30 lb shots, different explosives, and techniques.
Lastly, I am asking you how much experience you have with guns, of varying types. Including handguns, and rifles. Different
caliber sizes? Different rounds: armour piercing, FMJ, steel core, hollow tip, tracers and so forth. You may not think that that
may make a difference, but lemme tell you about 1 inch thick plates, that have holes through it, marks and divits. The
engineering of force is a wonderous art.
MightyQuinn: Fear not the mighty administrators. Unless you start using foul language, flaiming people with no reason or start
threads where they don't belong, write what you want!
And oh yeah, thanks getting my back!!
Steve
Guerilla March 9th, 2004, 12:45 PM

Hmmm, i have tried this mix before, got nothing. Will try again, but with 1lb charges, and more precision. Also with bullets.
Didn't have any luck. What proportions did you use? I guess its also possible the sensitivity increases as the ratio goes nearer
to the oxygen balance. I see if I can make some more investigation this weekend..
There's this (http://www.geocities.com/pyrotuksia/50gANZn.avi) (save as) quality video of the previous test, not much to see
as it was shot at 1am :p . The charge also had a gasoline bag on top of it, but it failed to ignite.
It can be at risk to prepare bigger batches of this at once, because the ingredients have to be fine and intimately mixed with
each other which generates heat during the blending even if the AN seems fully dry. I solved this by placing the mixing bag
into cold water.. If the finished mix gets moisture on it, it starts bubbling and fizzling, releasing ammonia and sometimes
eventually burns at one go, puffing out a thick smoke cloud..so an air-tight container is needed.
Only a caution, as you dont want a main charge heating up around a primary and setting it off prematurely while you are still
at close range..just because it happened to be a rainy day. :)
Dr_Pind March 9th, 2004, 04:29 PM

Just wondering. couldn't one just add a few percents of AP to anfo or a similar mix to make it sensitive to impact from a
bullet? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry vulture, but how the hell do you think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion?
Detcord, a sample of the explosive and two witness plates. It's called Dautriche method IIRC. I was under the impression that
either tjh or you would be aware of this method, considering your vast experience with explosives.
I know it has already been said, but i jsut want to reinterate this. AN/AL mixes ARE NOT FLASH, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
They're not exactly the standard type of flash, but a mixture of an oxidizer and a metal powder is usually designed as flash.
AN/Al mix with an OB of 0% can be burned like flash. Ofcourse with only 5% it'll be rather shitty.
Yes, what are you doing. Did you say try LIGHTING?? Try taking some Pot. Cholrate, (KCLO3) adn AL powder, put a cap to it.
You gonna tell me it won't detonate?
I'm not sure if it'll detonate. Consider this: most primaries have a higher VoD than flash. So, the primary detonates at let's
say 5000m/s. The flash may be able to detonate at 3000m/s. So i'd say the flash would be blown into all directions by the det
shockwave before it could complete detonation.
AN is a "heaving" explosive, which "moves" material. It does not shatter rocks. I have done the c4, AN test, and it's true. C4
detonates at sucha high velocity, it cuts threw everything, AN moves material. THis is jsut another why it is used in the
quarrying industry.
True. But i'd still expect a detonation of that much AN/Al to do more damage to a barrel of HDPE than what the video shows. I
could be wrong though. Is it HDPE?
I am unfortunately not able to set off large charges because of dense population here.
Jacks Complete March 9th, 2004, 08:19 PM

Wow! Not often you see this much pointless arguement on the boards!
Right, both sides of this arguement are right, with caveats.
The energy needed to initiate an explosive depends on the explosive. You can use a blasting cap, or blunt trauma, but you
have to exceed the critical energy transfer, or it doesn't do anything, or you get a partial det.
A high-velocity rifle bullet can impact some explosives and make it explode. On others, it will do nothing at all.
The quiz with the C-4 above ("Drop it with a weight behind it...") was silly. It will not go off. Not with ten pounds, not with
10,000 pounds. The rate of energy transfer is far too slow.
The best way to think of all this, is to look at silly putty and water. If you hit silly putty fast enough, it shatters. This is the
same as detonation. Hit it slowly, and you just get a dent. There is a critical impact speed, where just enough energy is
transferred in a short enough time, for "detonation" to occur. Now, with silly putty, you can often tell if it shattered, or whether
it just deformed, quite easily. Explosives aren't that easy, normally.
With water, you are closer to the case with an explosive.

Hit water slowly, and you will see nothing. Hit it really, really hard, as fast as you can, with a lead pipe, and you will see
nothing. The pipe will be wet, nothing more. Yet shoot it with a lead bullet, and it will flatten it like a pancake. Watch carefully,
though, and you will see no difference with the naked eye (or a normal video camera) in what happens to the water.
The energy transfer occurs fast enough, and the explosive goes bang, and detonates. The energy tranfer takes too long, no
detonation.
Of course, some explosives will still deflagrate, which may be taken for detonation. Others will just sit there quietly.
AN generally does not detonate. It is a low explosive, and it acts more like a propellant, and so it does tend to move larges
amounts of material, rather than cutting, as a highly energetic primary would. When treated just right, it will detonate. You can
make it detonate by raising the temperature above a certain point, so that the propagation of the shockwave will push the
bulk of the material over that critical threshold for energy transfer, and bang! Or, you can use a big blasting cap to send a big
enough shockwave into it.
However, you will get a much better detonation, with a higher VOD, if you raise the AN to just below the critical temperature (be
careful!) and THEN set off the cap.
If you don't believe this, get a couple of caps, and put one over a flame, on a gauze, and shock the other one, say by hitting
with a hammer. Which one was obviously louder?
steve smith March 10th, 2004, 05:02 PM

"[QUOTE=Jack's Complete]Wow! Not often you see this much pointless arguement on the boards!"
Hehehehe... hey, it keeps one occupied when bored. Nothing like a little good entertainment..
"Detcord, a sample of the explosive and two witness plates. It's called Dautriche method IIRC. I was under the impression that
either tjh or you would be aware of this method, considering your vast experience with explosives."
Should i have to repeat myself, again? Hmm, but how many of us can get ahold of Detcord on a regular basis? Hmmmm,
lemme think, ohh wait, no i don't have to, not very many people at all. So lemme ask you again, "but how the hell do you
think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion? [and withouth a massive undertaking in cost?
]
"They're not exactly the standard type of flash, but a mixture of an oxidizer and a metal powder is usually designed as flash.
AN/Al mix with an OB of 0% can be burned like flash. Ofcourse with only 5% it'll be rather shitty."
You know, just because you have a fuel, and an oxdizer, doesn't mean it's automatically classified as a flash. I can't think of
ANY potassium nitrate mixes, that don't use another more powerfull oxidizer inside. I am not saying there aren't, just saying
that this is NOT a flash mix. I just don't see AN beign capable of providing the necessary O2 to make a decent flash. has
anyone out there made an AN based flash? What are the percentages?? WOuld love to try somtime. Have plenty of german
black, and AN.
"Consider this: most primaries have a higher VoD than flash. So, the primary detonates at let's say 5000m/s. The flash may
be able to detonate at 3000m/s. So i'd say the flash would be blown into all directions by the det shockwave before it could
complete detonation."
Yes, yes, yes, yes... this is exactly what i was driving at with my flash in a co2 container argument. Some of it went, not all, but
some. Even when it went, it didn't go as best as t could, but it still went.. I would think ALL primaries have a higher VOD than a
basic flash. But does this mean that flash detonates?
"I am unfortunately not able to set off large charges because of dense population here."
Like i said before Mr. Vulture, come around my parts, and we'll go have some fun. It'll be a shit eating grin good time. I''ll
even go hunt down some det cord for the occasion.
"A high-velocity rifle bullet can impact some explosives and make it explode. On others, it will do nothing at all."
But will a high velocity bullet detonate an AN/AL mix? Or deflagrate it?
With water, you are closer to the case with an explosive.

Hit water slowly, and you will see nothing. Hit it really, really hard, as fast as you can, with a lead pipe, and you will see
nothing. The pipe will be wet, nothing more. Yet shoot it with a lead bullet, and it will flatten it like a pancake. Watch carefully,
though, and you will see no difference with the naked eye (or a normal video camera) in what happens to the water.
"The energy transfer occurs fast enough, and the explosive goes bang, and detonates. The energy tranfer takes too long, no
detonation."
Hence compression, correct? Meaning, the explosive to react best, would need to be contained, and the conatiner hold the
compression wave long enough for the explosive to react. This makes sense for the AN/AL mix that i described above,
regarding shooting the mix in a container, but uncompressed, no go.
"Of course, some explosives will still deflagrate, which may be taken for detonation. Others will just sit there quietly."
Under your best judgement, do you think that the AN/AL mix as described above detonate?
" Or, you can use a big blasting cap to send a big enough shockwave into it."
Would a .223 suffice?
Glad to hear a voice of reason, a voice of knowledge. Thanks for your input.
I have a 7meg video, 23 seconds long. About three of my targes going off. This video was shot at a gun range. Anyone have
somewhere where i could dump it, so that we all can view it? It is quite impressive, shows the shockwave traveling through the
sand, and moving the sand. The last few seconds i threw in a frame of the AN/AL at the precise time of detonation, with
fireball. Impressive. Note: these are only 6-8oz, mixes. Great quality movie.
Steve
PS, Vulture, how much gun experience did you say you had again?

Email me.....I have a place to host that.
I own it, it's not a freebee

Should i have to repeat myself, again? Hmm, but how many of us can get ahold of Detcord on a regular basis? Hmmmm,
lemme think, ohh wait, no i don't have to, not very many people at all. So lemme ask you again, "but how the hell do you
think any of us are ever going to be able to measue the VoD on ANY explosion? [and withouth a massive undertaking in cost?
]
Ehrm, I was implying you could make your own detcord...

Also, from your previous posts I was under the impression that it was no problem for you to get and/or make high explosives,
unless I misunderstood that.
I just don't see AN beign capable of providing the necessary O2 to make a decent flash. has anyone out there made an AN
based flash? What are the percentages?? WOuld love to try somtime. Have plenty of german black, and AN.
Quoting myself:
Did you try the OB mixture yet?
3NH4NO3 + 2Al ----> Al2O3 + 3N2 + 6H2O
I leave calculating the ratios to you...
PS, Vulture, how much gun experience did you say you had again?
Same reason as with the big charges. Firing a gun in my backyard would be a good way to end up in the police station.

Anybody want to get back to the topic of discussion--exploding targets? I would much rather hear from people who have
something positive to contribute, rather than from some asswipe who wants to argue. Not much has been said by people who
have real experience with target mixtures. I want to hear about how you used AN/AL for target shooting and as a booster for
other explosives.
How many out there have a positive attitude and will go out and try it this weekend? Please report what you will do, the size of
your charge, the caliber of bullet, or the type of explosive you will boost. Success or failure, we want to hear about it. Video or
pictures would be appreciated.
I also want to remind you that I'd like to hear about other target mixtures you have had success with. I know there are other
shooters out there. Give us some ideas, and let's keep this discussion alive. :D
EP March 12th, 2004, 12:21 AM

Even though you aren't happy with vulture, it's usually not a good idea to call a senior member an "asswipe."

What made you think I was focusing on Vulture? I didn't say Vulture was an asswipe. I merely stated that I wanted to hear
from people with something positive to say, rather than some asswipe who wants to argue. Several people have been arguing.
Of course, my reference was purposely vague, I'll admit.
But, back on the subject--Please try out AN/AL target mix over the weekend. Let us hear about your results.
MightyQuinn March 12th, 2004, 01:28 AM

Hve no fear.....TJH.....
I hope to do JUST that! I am fully capable of documenting my work and plan to do so.
I shoot these targets on a regular basis, but am done buying them. I plan to make my own. Not only that, but I plan to get
this mixture to detonate with a cap made by me.
All through the process I will be using digital media to convey the process to others.
Folks like Vulture keep the wheels moving, keep the brain thinking. Devils advocate is wise.......certainly wise when dealing
with energetic materials.
Time for an hour or so in the archives.....Semper Fi.

If *someone* would want to keep this discussion alive, *someone* shouldn't call other members full of themselves or
asswipes and *someone* should get off their lazy ass and try it themselves instead of playing expert and being a cunt.
Ofcourse, I'm absolutely NOT referring to tjh!
</pun>
:rolleyes:

I don't really see what the point to all this arguing is. Whether technically they detonate or deflagerate, they create the desired
effect, in that they do explode when they get hit by a bullet. Surely for the simple purpose of making a bag, some smoke and
giving a beating to ajacent objects, whether technically it detonates or deflagerates is not important.
Personally I do not think they do detonate. I am reminded of when I tried mixing a small amount of KClO3 and sulphur. As
you know this mixture is known for amoung other things impact sensetivity. I once made two small equal piles, lit one and
clouted the other with a hammer. While the one that was lit burned, the one that was hit 'exploded', yet did not detonate. I
think the same is probably happening here.
And isn't that what it's all about!!!!????
at last count, 704 viewings for this thread alone. And all that in only, what less than 2 weeks??
Ok, i'll admit, i'm an asswipe, a complete asswipe. Especially since i *know* that this shit (thank you) detonates. I *feel* it
detonating, unlike deflagration. I must say, i am NOT, by ANY chance a chemical explosive engineer. But lemme tell you, at
least i have EXPERIENCE in shooting guns, and blowing things up. What might you ask in shooting? What caliber would you like
to know about, or, what type of weapon would you like to clean? What would YOU like to blow up today? Railroads? roads?
cars? airplanes? bridges? You see, it's all about practicality. Anyone can read, not anyone can actually practice, much less get
PAID to do what needs to be done. And (i hate starting sentences with "and") that's the rub ppl., the real honest to goodness
blowing things up rub, ain't it!?
"not a good idea to call a senior member an "asswipe."
Your right, what was a senior member, maybe the length if time they've had their login???? (should we check) Oh no, was that
maybe, an administrator? Megalomaniac? i am sure he has been lurking around this thread a few times, it's only gotten 704
hits. Cause, you know, anyone can post their "ideas".
SO YES, i will have that video on a site in a few days, for those of you that are interested in viewing shockwaves traveling over
desert floors, and viewing directional shockwaves.
So like i was saying, as stated above, it isn't THAT easy to get ahold of some stuff, like say for instance, detcord. Especially
making detcord with the same density throughout, with the same consistent quality. Anyone have a blackmatch machine? Yea,
i didn't think so. (but i do, i really really do! Ever seen weingart's?) Commercially made detcord isn't anything that you could
make yourself. So, Ehrm, i AM, Ehrm, implying that it isn't THAT easy to making detcord, Ehrm, for a SCIENTIFIC purpose,
when measuring VOD. SO i, Ehrm, guess this begs the question (being VAGUE), what's the BEST way to make detcord? let's
start this thread in say, high explosive? Ohh gee, did i just START a thread, named "making your own detcord"? Since i have
never made this stuff, but i, Ehrm, know that someone actually has on this thread, cause Ehrm, it was so easy to make, Ehrm,
could, maybe, be the second post. Thank you.
Back to the whole AN/AL issue, i state, again, that i don't think that AN could produce enough O2, on a basis of enough, or
fast enough, to turn the mix into flash. (therefore, turning the mix into deflagration) Is there ANYONE that has made a flash
based off of AN out there!?? I have NEVER heard of it, and i really don't want to "leave calculating the ratios to [me]..." Cause,
rememeber, i "ain't no chemical engineer".
We ALL know theory, and all we know that practicality part. Only some of us are actually ABLE to practice it all. Because, we [I]
don't have to worry about this "be[ing] a good way to end up in the police station.", unlike some.
My money is behind Mr. MightyQuinn. He's out there this weekend, using finley ground AN, and 5% Al, flake AL 325mesh.
(would this be considered pandering?)
So yes, Mr. Sonny Jim, the difference is really in the "jesus, what the hell was that!" But i guess, if you have never really
experienced a 50lb blast (or even a 1lb blast from 50ft), from 600feet, you've never really experienced anything at all.
The difference is not that elementary, it is far from that. Like MightyQuinn said, "Devils advocate is wise.......certainly wise
when dealing with energetic materials."
Steve,
The only easy day, was yesterday!
Sonny Jim March 13th, 2004, 09:15 AM

A quote from the rules:
'This is the person who'll argue till the end of time that their idea is the greatest thing since sliced bread, even after 50 people
who know better tell them it's crap, simply because they can't admit their idea was crap to begin with and would rather go down
with the ship then let what little ego they have get deflated by admission of stupidity'
I think you're in danger or falling under that category. You've made your point, and now all your doing is repeating yourself,
getting more flustered as time goes on, and as a result you are starting to talk crap.
What on earth does the hit number have to do with anything? And do you really think that you are the only one here who has
explosive experience? This is the EXPLOSIVES and weapons forum after all, although for you soon it may just become a site
you can't access :rolleyes:
Let it go.

Steve, it seems that you seem to think that someone called you an asswipe, which is not the case.
I appreciate your efforts in doing practical tests, contrary to tjh who's sitting on his ass screaming around somebody should try
it and that he is right, period.
Back to the whole AN/AL issue, i state, again, that i don't think that AN could produce enough O2, on a basis of enough, or
fast enough, to turn the mix into flash.
Ammoniumnitrate is an oxidizer! I think you need to review a bit of BASIC chemistry before going further onto this one. Ever
heard of AN blackpowder?
Substituting C for Al will also produce a compound capable of deflagration (and detonation when initiated by a cap) but only
with much greater force.
Calculating ratios from a reaction equation is something mandatory to master when messing with explosives!
Look up the molecular weight of the compounds....it's piss easy from there.
I'd be testing this shit myself if it weren't for a thermodynamics examination I have to study for...oh the irony...

"I think you're in danger or falling under that category. You've made your point,"
Your right, in the sense that i have made my point, but somone keeps telling me i am wrong, and using some partialy
incorrect reasoning. I could have stopped at the VERY first post, but in order to have a lively discussion, i haven't.
"is the greatest thing since sliced bread, even after 50 people who know better tell them it's crap,
I hope your not refering to me, because you obvously have NOT read my posts. I have conceded that some of my analogies
were bad, and have quite bluntly said that i was wrong. I do not think my ideas are better than sliced bread, cause it's not
what you know that's going to kill you, it's what you don't. That is, unless, you only know this stuff via books and studying.
And only deal with it via books and studying. Anyone else would like to step in here and say that they have been wrong, Ehrm?
"What on earth does the hit number have to do with anything?"
as you can see form my posts, i don't "cherry pick" my arguments, i argue every point. it takes longer, but get's my point
across. It also sets me up to be wrong more often. But, rather be wrong, than dead.
Exactly what i stated above, it's not what you know what's going to kill you, it's what you don't know. 700+ viewings, this
means people are OBVIOUSLY interested in what is being said, unfortuantly not very people are willing to come forward and
talk about it. Maybe this idea is (of AN/AL targets) is the best idea since sliced bread, go figure.
I will make this outwardly request, as TJH has: if anyone has played with sensitizing this mix even more, or create a pre-target
to make the AN/AL mix go off easier, post your ideas. Even your theoretical ideas. THIS is what it is all about.
"Ammoniumnitrate is an oxidizer! I think you need to review a bit of BASIC chemistry before going further onto this one. Ever
heard of AN blackpowder?"
Gee, Vulture, did i strike a nerve? DId i maybe specifically STATE what an oxidizer was? Did i maybe state that simply mixing
an oxidizer and a fuel, did NOT constitute a flash mix? OR was i under the impression that YOU could somehow conjour up a
flash based mix from Sodium Nitrate?
Blackpowder, is by NO means a FLASH powder. they are two COMPLETLY different items. Period. I have shot a .223 through
blackpowder, and no go. I have shot a .223 through an an/al mix, and you get a shockwave. (notice i did NOT say detonation,
what a nice guy i am, hahaha..) I am not trying prove this by that analogy, just stating.
I want to ask one more time, more specifically, has anyone ever seen or made an AN based flashpowder mix? I don't care,
nor want to know about mixes that use other oxidizers in them. I want AN only oxidizers based mixes. Let's start this thread
under Pyrotechnics, i yes, will be the first poster. Anyone else would like to, Ehrm, post second, Ehrm?
"Calculating ratios from a reaction equation is something mandatory to master when messing with explosives!"
Hmmm, does this mean that government qualification blasting tests to blast commercially includes chemistry? I dunno what
kind of blasters you have talked to, but some i wouldn't trust trying to cook, much less understand the OB's. EDIT: Yes, some
test DO include BASIC chemistry, but not --real-- chemistry with OB's, equations and so forth
"shit myself if it weren't for a thermodynamics examination I have to study for...oh the irony..."
Yes, i think there's the rub right there. Books.
"although for you soon it may just become a site you can't access"
yea, i keep forgetting SonnyJim, it's a place that i would be banned for putting forth ideas, experience and questions, under -
every- post of mine. As contrary to your two posts were direct personal attacks on people. Let's talk AN/AL mixes. I see what
your saying SonnyJim, and i understand. This is why the tone of this post has already changed.
Lastly, i have NEVER said that i was the ONLY person in here who had experience with explosives, quite the contrary. I was
comparing myself to another person, who had no experience with guns and field experience. I have fessed up to my incorrect
analogies, and my incorrect ideas. I have learned, and have nothing to lose, but my fingers. Anyone else want to chime in?
I think i have done pretty well, and this thread has done pretty well. Spurring two more threads, with items that have never
been really talked about.
I want to know, would it be possible to add a chemical, such as an oxidizer to get this mix to go off any easier? This would be
a great question for Mr. Vulture. As he is the chemistry whiz around here. (I have said many times, "I ain't no chemical
engineer")
And again, lastly, (for the 2nd, or 3rd time) what would be a way to prove that this AN/AL particular mix detonates? Or, better,
deflagrates?
Steve

Umm, ammonium nitrate is an oxidiser.
I cant think of any back yard ways of testing for a specific VOD, but how about this.
Take two charges of equal mass, shoot one, and detonate the other the old fasioned way. Compare the results. I would be
only too happy to test this myself but I'm fresh out of high power rifles. England's great and all but it only takes one nutcase
to get anything banned over here.
It's hardly a foolproof method, but a comparison between a known detonation and a possible one may be useful to provide
some insight.

Did i maybe state that simply mixing an oxidizer and a fuel, did NOT constitute a flash mix? OR was i under the impression
that YOU could somehow conjour up a flash based mix from Sodium Nitrate?
Yes indeed, look at the PFP database,there are sodiumnitrate flash mixes! A flash mixture is a pyrotechnic mixture that burns
emitting a great amount of light. Most oxidizer + Al/Mg/Ti/Zr mixes fall under this definition and can be used as such!
Hmmm, does this mean that government qualification blasting tests to blast commercially includes chemistry? I dunno what
kind of blasters you have talked to, but some i wouldn't trust trying to cook, much less understand the OB's. EDIT: Yes, some
test DO include BASIC chemistry, but not --real-- chemistry with OB's, equations and so forth
Are you working for the government? Such knowledge is mandatory if you're making your own explosives, to predict possible
nasty side reactions! Commercial mixes often have patented stabilizers added that eliminate the need of worrying about side
reactions!
zaibatsu March 14th, 2004, 10:40 AM

Next post will greatly annoy me. Unless there's new information, or practical results (or comments on the above), watch out for
your user status, may change to begin with B...

I have a brief range report. This weekend brought some nicer weather so the shooters were out in force. I had to make my
experiments kind of stealth (hidden in car) and no filming was done due to me being in stealth mode at the range.
(Sometimes it s n ot prude nt to piss off certain members of the club and attempting to blo w up pro pane tanks qu alifies as
pissing someone off)
Anyhow. I have not done enough research to make a primary yet, so I had to figure out something to test this deflagration
business.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, be deflagration would indicate the presence of flame, correct? So......on that assumption I did
the following:
I had 2 propane tanks laying around the basement from a couple of grills I picked out of the garbage and stripped. Each tank
was roughly half full and they have the "old" style valve that cannot be refilled any more.
I mixed up 3 targets as per instructions (220g of AN and around 5g AL/Titanium Sponge powder from kit) I mix the targets in
a separate container and then pour back in to target bottles to assure proper mixture.
To one tank I taped one target. To the other, I taped two targets. I waited for the range to clear, close and darken up a little.
My buddy and I marched the targets out to 200y and chained them to a 20F piece of railroad tie. I chained them to keep
them from pulling a rocket and flying off somewhere (toward me mainly)
O k .my friend and I s uit up in all the Kevla r we own and get ready to shoot. I am shooting standard steel/copper FMJ
MILSURP 1954 Mauser ammo. Nothing fancy. I have my buddy set up to shoot an incendiary/tracer ammo at the tanks should
I not get ignition.
I take the shot at the first tank/targe t combin ation. I am assuming I will get a nice fireball if deflagra tion occurs. Well .what
happened was a Boom! There was NO flash, no fireball, nothing but a slight cloud of yellow smoke. I had my buddy fire at it
twice with the I/T ammo to ignite any fuel remaining, but he was unable to ignite the fuel. We waited a couple of minutes
and walked up to targets. The was a huge gas smell, so we decided not to fuck around out at the targets long. The target
beache d the tank with a crack about 8 long and surely released gas, b ut no fire nor d iscoloration on the once white tank.
W e b acked back to the firing line a nd repeated process on the tan k with 2 targets. I s hot it, it went BOOM lou der ..no flash ,
no flame. Buddy opened up with the I/T s to try and ignite gas. Nothing, no flame , no nothing. T his tank lo oked much like
the other one did sans for a larger deeper crack (more tank deformation)
My buddy and I tossed the tanks aside (in some brush) when we were done, but had to beat feet quickly. Mainly because I lit
an old mortor I had with me and the BOOM from that was LOUD and 200+ feet in the air (sure to draw attention). Next time I
go to the range, I will attempt to photograph the tank hulls, but there is not much to see.
So, as far as I and my far-from-scientific research goes, I would conclude these target detonate.
I expect to promp tly b e told am full of shit or some such ..so be it.

Great job MightyQuinn!!!!
No flame, and no flash!! But powerful enough to split the tanks. I guess that's why ammonium nitrate is the main ingrediant in
permissible explosives--because it detonates without flame/flash for use in mining operations where buildup of gases in
underground mines can themselves lead to explosions. Your evidence seems to dismiss the argument that ANAL deflagrates
like flashpowder.
I just got off of my lazy ass and tried something similar. Yesterday, I placed a gasoline filled plastic jug behind one of my
ANAL targets and shot it with a .223. The target detonated fine, but the gasoline just sprayed everywhere and failed to ignite.
Same thing that happened to your propane bottles. More evidence of detonation without flame or flash.
What have your experiments produced Vulture? We would like to hear from you, or have you been sitting on your lazy ass
lately?
Keep those experiences and information coming folks!

What have your experiments produced Vulture? We would like to hear from you, or have you been sitting on your lazy ass
lately?
Are you blind, just plain stupid or only trying to piss me off?
This is yet the second time I have to requote myself:
I'd be testing this shit myself if it weren't for a thermodynamics examination I have to study for...oh the irony...
If someone's clogging up this thread with useless comments, it's you, because it seems you need everything to be repeated
twice to get the slightest grab of it.
Same thing that happened to your propane bottles. More evidence of detonation without flame or flash.
Have you ever considered the fact that:
A) The Al content is at or below 5%, so any flash will be hard to notice.

B) There might be a flash which could either be obscured by smoke or pass to quickly to be noticed by the human eye.
For example, the flash of 10g KMnO4/Mg is very hard to notice in daylight, yet in the dark it's extremely blinding.
Also, I fail to see the relevance of attaching the targets to propane tanks or gasoline jugs.
Did you ever think of what happens when a tank full with gas is suddenly heated at one point? The AN/Al charge was so small
compared to the huge amount of gas in the bottle that the energy absorbed by the suddenly expanding gas could have
prevented ignition.
Also, cracking propane tanks usually go bang....
Do the test without tanks and other shit on a simple metal plate and compare dent with cap detonated mixture. THAT is a
representative test.
Rhadon March 14th, 2004, 08:16 PM

Alright tjh, you're banned now. Our leniency didn't pay off...
Guerilla March 15th, 2004, 12:23 PM

Sorry for lateness, but I'm just wondering this detcord method, in determining whether AN/Al detonates from a bullet impact or
not.. Wouldn't the mix detonate eventually anyway when it meets the first end of the detcord?? on the presumption that an
improvised detcord would detonate from a possibly deflagrating explosive in the first place..
not trying to prove anyone wrong, using Dautriche method on this one just seems a bit inconvenient.

"Take two charges of equal mass, shoot one, and detonate the other the old fasioned way. Compare the results."
Yes, i ahve done this before, many times. I have taken the following mixes and used a cap with them: AN/AL, ANNM, ANFO,
AN/NM/AL, Pot. Chlorate/NM, Pot Chlorate/Al, Pot Perch/NM, Pot perch/AL. I then, shot each mix with a .223 Unfortuanlty i did
NOT get all of the results on tape, so i won't be able to show everyone. But lemme tell you, the AN/AL mix wehn shot at witha
.223, sounds better than with a cap. Some went, some didn't. I don't think the AN/NM, ANFO mixes went, but i will need to
check that..
I have also shot the AN/AL against a railraod plate, 1inch thick, and have used a cap against another. LEmme tell you bout
the result. They aer the same. They crack the back of the plate open.. Amazing. Simply aweing...
"the PFP database,there are sodiumnitrate flash mixes"
Yes, and you actually only find one. Look at the ratio there, 86/14. not very fuel rich if you ask me. What does this tell you?
Dunno if it is even worht a dime, but i might as well try it.
"mandatory if you're making your own explosives, to predict possible nasty side reactions!"
Must have misunderstood me, i meant shooters, not explosive chemists. The difference in the fact that one group simply
uses, the other makes/creates. Ever met any blasters? an eclectic group some of them they are...
"correct me if I am wrong, be deflagration would indicate the presence of flame, correct?"
Yes, but not for AN. I am amazed vulture isn't already all over this one. Especialyl since it's trying to prove his point of view
incorrect.
An explosion consists of two parts. There is the inital shock wave, which creates the actual damage, then there is the fireball.
The fireball is reliant upon the shockwave, but the shockwave could care less about the fireball. After the shockwave detonates
through, it transfers it's energy, the fireball ensues. Ever seen a tomahawk go off, maybe a JDAM? There is a massive frieball
afterwards. Ever seen TNT go off, there's a BIG fireball. No matter what, there would STILL be a flame, whether or not it
actually detonated. I do believe you, trust me. I have done this MANY TIMES.
"s (220g of AN and around 5g AL/Titanium Sponge powder from kit) '
You need to increase the amount of AL/Titanium Sponge powder by about 6 grams. Right now, your only running at 2%, a bit
low.(but it will still go boom with 1%, simply amazing.)
" O k .my friend and I s uit up in all the Kevla r we own and get ready to shoot."
Dude, we need to go out shooting sometime. Seriously.
"I take th e shot at the first tank/target co mbina tion. I am assumin g I will get a nice fireball if deflagration occurs. Well .what
happened was a Boom! There was NO flash, no fireball, nothing but a slight cloud of yellow smoke"
Sounds right! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, i am smiling like a proud father! ahhhh.... i need to go take a timeout..
"Buddy opened up with the I/T s to try and ignite gas. Nothing, no flame , no nothing".
See, here's the problem. AN explsoives just don't produce any sort of real fireball. I have seen them, i have them on tape.
WHen they go, they go fast and quickly. Completly unlike TNT. BUT, the shockwave they produce, works.
" I would conclude these target detonate."
Unfortuantly, i dunno if could really truly say that one could draw that conclusion form this experiment. Watch what i have to
say to vulture's response, you'll be amazed.
"I expect to promptly be told a m full of shit or some such ..so be it."
Nah, since TJH is gone, you won't be called an asswipe. I really truly congratulate you on your efforts, and i do think you did a
great job. Next time you goto the range, go about it this way. Go right up to the range safety officer, and sya to him: "i bought
these really cool little reactive targets at the gun show a few weeks ago, and wantt o try them. " Be sure to have a few excuse
ready for when people comeup to you and ask question such as where theycan buy them, if they can buyt hem form you,but
you'llhave to tel them you can't, as that would be illegal. Make sure to only use smaller ones, and package them
professionaly looking. Paper bags look good. wrapped tighly. Fake labels are always good.
"where buildup of gases in underground mines can themselves lead to explosion"
Not exactly. Coal minig operations still have underground fires from AN explsoves.
"More evidence of detonation without flame or flash."
Just wait till what i have to say, when i get around to vultures response.
"sitting on your lazy ass lately?"
Ohh my, issues. Touchy aren't we?
"just plain stupid or only trying to piss me off?"

Prolly the latter... Someone has to answer the questions other put forth....
"This is yet the second time I have to requote myself"

don't get chintzy on us here Mr. Vulture. I have repeated myself plenty of times with you.
"There might be a flash which could either be obscured by smoke or pass to quickly to be noticed by the human eye."
Uhmm, one question Mr. Vulture. In order to get smoke, there has to be what? SO, in order for the flash to "be obscured by
smoke", the flash has to come FIRST? correct? Denied.
"to quickly to be noticed by the human eye."

Now were getting somewhere. Yes, you are right, but not all the time (for the human eye to catch the flash that is). The larger
the blast, the larger the fireball I have two pics, the first of a traget going off, the second of a 40lb ANNM, blast. If you were to
increase the al content, you'd defiantly see the flash. At 5%, you won't see it all the time, but you still can see it. DO the
targets at night. You'll se a quick, but definite flash.
"Also, I fail to see the relevance of attaching the targets to propane tanks or gasoline jugs."
Ummm, maybe because of exactly what MightyQuinn said before. Deflagration includes a fireball, also what you specifically
stated before. Would you like me to requote, YOUR quote? So, the fireball, if deflagration occured, would ignite the gasoline
or propane.
" full with gas is suddenly heated at one point"

yes, the saftey valve release the overpressure, slowly. Produces a nice flame column, lemme tell you.
"Also, cracking propane tanks usually go bang...."

No they don't, they make the sound that sounds like high pressure gas makes when escaping out of a small hole. I've done it
Lemme tell you what i have done with propane tanks and 5 gallon buckets full of gasoline.
I have shot propane tanks with bullets, with tracers, with detonated ANNM as well as AN/AL charges. Never went. But hold on.
I have taken 5 gallon buckets full of Gasoline, gas/diesel, diesel. i have lite them afire, in full flaming glory. I have put AN/AL
target below them, flaming and not flaming. No go. But hold on.
I have DETONATED, with a CAP, AN/AL, AN/AM, target sizes, INSIDE the 5 gallon buckets. Meaning, the devices were floating
INSIDE the gasoline, while flaming and not flaming. No go.
I am not going to try all these things again, with such major gas prices today, it would cost me big bucks and whammies, just
to spread fresh gasoline onto the desert floor. NOt into that idea.
I have put a bit of C4 under a 5 gallon bucket full of gas, and let her rip. Oh, and rip she did. Now are you gong to tell me
that the C4 deflagrated?
Lastly, for shits, grins and giggles. I took a 35gram charge of flash, with titanium shavings. I placed the charge INSIDE a
20gallon GAS tank, with 3-5gallons of gas. I swished aorund the fuel, and blewinto it. Capped the top, and closed the circuit.
What did i get? I'll tell you in my next post. But in the meantime, especially vulture, what happened? You'll be throughly
amazed.
Vulture, you need to find an area not so well populated, and actually TRY the things that MightyQuinn, and I have done. It's
like talkign to brick wall sometimes. TJH, although blunt, rude, obnoxious as he was, did have a point. I realize, school is
more important, but you need start tellign us waht you plan on doing to prove this wrong, or at least, i'll do it for you, jsut tell
me what i need to do. Obviosly, i am researching the dautriche method.
"using Dautriche method on this one just seems a bit inconvenient."

It is, but being the assiwipes that i am, i am willign to try. I always wanted to find the VOD on my AN/AL mixes, as well as
other AN mixes that i do all the time...
I am goign to let Mr. Vulture respond to this, as he has a good understanding as to the abstract of the Dautriche method, and
how it works. Let her rip vulture!
Steve
"the only easy day, was yesterday..."
"England's great and all but it only takes one nutcase to get anything banned over here."
I feel for you SonnyJim, i really, really do. WOuld you like me send you an application for the NRA? I'll extend my offer to go
have a shit eating grin good time to you as well, the same one i offered to Mr. Vulture.

The first and second is an a6, being "disabled" by a 10lb an/nm device. Inside a metal canister. Notice how big the firball is.
Note the shockwave along the ground.
The third pic is of a detonating AN/AL target. Nitice how the flame is creeping through the tape. Compare the target in the
foreground. They are exactly the same.
Lastly, and the best. This is a 35-40lb shot. the was this: HMTD, 2-3grams of c4, an/al, then the final, an/nm.
All shots were done under the direct supervision of qualified, and liscened Blasting engineers. This was not your backyard
demo. This was, a training exercise.
Steve
------------------
These attachments are way too large! Images of that quality can be compressed much better.
Rhadon
PS: It's not necessary to sign posts with your name as it's already standing next to each of your posts.

I know I am dredging up an old topic, but I believe this is the way to do it.
For the people wondering what it is exactly I am using in these targets (purchased) here it is; directly from the patent.
United States Patent Application 20030033952
[0006] The Tannerite Targets are manufactured in my Federally licensed manufacturing plant under my Type 20 license. The
Ammonia Perchlorate is added to the Explosive Grade Ammonia Nitrate once the Ammonia Nitrate prills are milled into a
powder of 200 mesh. The Oxidizer solution is then funneled into the target containers and the labels attached. The lids are
sealed. The catalyst is bottled with 90% Explosive Grade Aluminum powder, 5% Titanium powder and 5% Zirconium. (See
attached drawing for details)
The amount of catalyst" used is subject to the measuring/weighing whim of th e user.
I tend to weig h out my catalyst" charges in advance so as to a cq uire uniform reactions, but in my firs t dealings with th e stuff I
simply threw in a teaspoon full and the y work ed fine. The m anufacture r advised me to mix a little lea n to improve the
detonation. (Yes, I said detonation.) :P
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-
bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=tannerite&OS=tannerite&RS=tannerite
Thesenator June 19th, 2006, 12:44 PM

I've mixed and detonated AN/AL targets many times. It does detonate.
The first experiment I ever did with it was using the prilled AN out of a coldpak instant cold dressing. I cut the bag, removed
the water bag from inside, crushed the prills with my leatherman to about sugar consistancy, added about 1/2 tsp of 325 mesh
bright aluminum, mixed to a uniform color and shot it with a .223 rifle from 25meters. It detonated instantly.
I don't understand why there is so much doubt about AN/AL mixtures detonating with a rifle bullet.....I've done it hundreds of
times since, in sizes of 1/2 pound to 3 pounds. Never has there been any noticeable fireball or any sign of burned debris.
I've mixed them in baggies, film containers, plastic bottles the same as Tannerite comes in, plastic coffes jars, large plastic
vitamin bottles, and even plastic milk jugs for the large ones.
I have cut off angle iron at ground level using a 1/2 pounder simply placed in the V so it directed away from my direction. Cut
clean off at ground level.
Would a deflagration do that? I doubt it.
+++++++
Any old-timers remember the great "Flash Deflagerates/Detonates" debate, and how many people got banned over it?
NBK
The_Duke June 19th, 2006, 07:04 PM

The kinetic energy formed on impact causes the detonation. This has been covered before...:rolleyes:
Edit: Oh yea, "The final flashpowder contest", haha it was nice to read over that thread again.:p
Lewis June 20th, 2006, 10:51 PM

I haven't actually painstakingly gone over this thread to see if this had been answered either directly or indirectly, so I
apologize if I'm creating needless redundancy.
Seeing as people appear to be generally saying that AN detonates, does that mean spherical Al will have similar results in an
AN/Al, even though it does not work in flash?
I'm going to test this soon, but I'd appreciate it if I could know if this will be a complete waste or not before hand.
nbk2000 June 21st, 2006, 03:51 AM

Even failed experiments are not a waste of time, so proceed as if we weren't even here, and find out for yourself. :)
Thesenator June 22nd, 2006, 08:26 PM

Seeing as people appear to be generally saying that AN detonates, does that mean spherical Al will have similar results in an
AN/Al, even though it does not work in flash?
Don't bother with the spherical AL and AN, it doesn't work well at all. I've tried it and out of 20 or so targets mixed, only one
worked compared to 100% with bright flake 325-400 mesh or dark pyro aluminum.
Do NOT quote whole posts! :mad:
Lewis June 23rd, 2006, 03:42 PM

I wasn't planning on shooting it. I was going to use something roughly akin to a blasting cap to set off the mixture.
jagster June 24th, 2006, 02:38 PM

Question for you guys. Does ammonium perchlorate help sensitize the mixture? As this is what daniel tanner uses. Is it worth
getting some? I'm trying to set this stuff off with a .17 HMR, 2550 fps. Has anyone had any luck with those? I also haven't
used good flake AL though, will on 4th weekend :).
Also is there a way to dry out the NH4NO3? Just put in an oven I guess and make sure it doesn't get above the breakdown
tempature?
An what does the titanium sponge and ziconium accomplish in his mixture? There is a pretty insignificant amount (5% of the
already 1/8 fuel mixture with oxidizer)..does it serve a purpose or make more smoke or what?
Thanks!
gunsmoke July 4th, 2006, 07:28 PM

I just tryed to make one and filled up a 8oz plastic bottle with AN with 1 tsp AL packed it tight shot at it with a
.223 all that happened was the thing ruptured.Used 34-0-0 fertlizer 325 mesh dark aluminum
there must be something I am missing
jagster July 5th, 2006, 06:37 PM

Was it 5%? I guess dark means flake. I know i've tried it guestimating before and if you use MORE fuel from my experience,
at least with a lower power rifle it does NOT detonate.
I bought ammonium perchlorate and mixed in and I used pyroaluminum.com and it works :-). Hell it blew a 6 x 6 into many
pieces...only 220 grams of it. Great stuff.
Cobalt.45 July 5th, 2006, 07:25 PM

Edited: Ratio of mix found on similar post under Tannerite Exploding Targets thread.
stupid939 August 14th, 2006, 04:36 PM

I have not saw anyone say that you could use APAN for an exploding target. In a ratio of 12:88, AP to AN, it is oxygen
balanced. I have shot this mixture several times and it is reliably ignitable from a .22 bullet or a handgun load. I use 50 gram
targets, and leave the powder loose in a cardboard tube.
Smoakie August 20th, 2006, 01:13 PM

I have made these with success.
I grind the AN with a mortar and pestle to probably table salt consistancy. Its a little hard to tell because the AN is a lot more
'fluffy.'
I use AL bought off ebay that is advertised as 625 mesh but will not even begin to ignite when used in a standard 70/30 flash
mix with perc. I mean it wont even burn much less make a bang so it is probably more like 300 mesh spherical with some
fines.
I usually mix 94 grams AN with 6 grams AL and place in a plastic baggie and mix well. I then 'detonate' it with a .223 inside
the plastic baggie. It has worked every time except the last time but the AN had been ground and sitting for awhile and had
absorbed quite a bit of water.
I usually put the baggie up against some kind of backstop whether its an old propane tank, a stump, or a old fence post. I
have not tried just hanging the baggie without a backstop, but I do know a 30-30 wont work.
The first time I ever did it was against a old 20lb standard grill propane tank. I figured it was going to be about like 20 grams
of flash going off and got fairly close at about 40-50 feet. Lets just say I was a little dumbfounded when it went off. Quite a
thump to the chest and pretty loud even with ear protection. I walked to the tank and was pretty darn suprised when there was
a hole in it that I could stick my whole opened hand through (about a 8-9" diameter hole).
A five inch diameter fence post will have a 12-18" section where the baggie was missing afterwards with a good supply of tooth
picks laying around.
I have been very suprised at the power of a 100 gram charge. I dont know if the guy that talked about a 220g charge on a
propane tank was using the standard grill tank or something more heavy duty but I get a whole lot more than a crack. I
actually had holes in the back of the tank where it blew pieces from the front side thru the back.
Just wanted to give my experience using these targets and spherical AL. If anyone wants pics of the propane tank I can put
them on photobucket or similar hosting site.
Lewis August 20th, 2006, 05:25 PM

Wow, Smoakie. If what you say is true, it gives hope to all the people who got ripped off by PK Unlimited.
Too bad police attention made me throw out all my chemicals. :(
Smoakie August 20th, 2006, 09:34 PM

You got it, plans and kits unlimited out of california. I bought 10 pounds and was a little pissed at first. But I have found using
it with the AN works great as well as with other pyro mixes for lots of sparks, so I'm not as upset.
Plus I made a ball mill a while ago and as soon as I get some steel media will see what happens when I let it sit in the mill for
a few days.
Bert November 21st, 2007, 02:23 PM

I had not looked at the boomershoot.org site for a while. More experimental data is listed now.
A look at http://www.boomershoot.org/index.html
reveals that they don't use any Al in the production targets. Even more interesting, they don't use
nitro methane any more either. Cheap ethylene glycol antifreeze, ammonium nitrate (prills) and
potassium chlorate (fine powder) is the current mix. That's a CHEAP mix... According to their
site, it's sensitive to some high velocity .22 LR ammunition at 75 yards, which would make it
more sensitive than Tannerite in my experience.
(quoted from boomershoot web site)
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/EG.htm
1500 Grams Ammonium Nitrate. Prilled, not ground.

400 Grams Potassium Chlorate. 200 mesh powder.
3 tablespoons Ethylene Glycol. Cheap antifreeze with few or no preservatives.
Mix the EG with the AN until thoroughly blended.

Mix in the PC.
It will look very much like mixed curd size cottage cheese.
Seal in airtight containers.
Do not pack! The mixture must be slightly fluffy to detonate easily.
iostream333 November 21st, 2007, 10:00 PM

Correct m e if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this result in th e formation of ammonium chlorate? That sounds somewhat da ngerous
The presence of ammonium chlorate would seem to explain the "spontaneous combustion" and various other described
instabilities.
Bert November 22nd, 2007, 09:53 AM

Correct m e if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this result in th e formation of ammonium chlorate? That sounds somewhat da ngerous
Yes. First thing I though as well. But they've made several tons of these over the last 8 or so years. I emailed Joe Huffman
about that back in 2002 when I first ran across the boomershoot.org site. I was not the first person to tell him that back then
either... Apparently mixed dry it isn't quite as quick to develop problems as in water bound pyrotechnic compositions. I still
wouldn't mix such things and store them.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > potasium p i k r a t e
Log in
View Full Version : potasiumpikrate
leenl February 29th, 2004, 04:38 PM

h e l l o , I h a v e m a d e p o t a s i u m p i k r a t e b y m ixing potasium carbonate with pikricacid solution and let dry the precipitate,then I m ix
two parts pot.pikr. with one part potasium pikrate(powde red),this m ixture burnt extremely fast in the open air with a
W HOMP!,like good flashpowder, is there anyone who kn ows about this mixture?
mongo blongo February 29th, 2004, 05:17 PM

Are you from Mars??? :rolleyes:

There just one thing wrong... You misspelled "www.totse .com (http://www.hotm ale .com) " in the adress field of your web
browser.

Next tim e we ar sunglasses because that test of yours severely a ffected your eyesight...
Sjee z. :rolleyes:
Dave Angel February 29th, 2004, 08:21 PM

"two parts pot.pikr. with one part potasium pikrate"
W hat are you trying to say here?
Mixing two parts of potassium picrate with one part of potassium picrate gives one larger part of potassium picrate unless I've
m i s s e d s o m e t h i n g f u n d a m ental. Also notice ho w potassium picrate is spelt, this aids people when they are SEARCHing!
S i n c e y o u h a v e t h e p o t a s s i u m picrate, why don't you do a few tests and give us som e data? Maybe that, and the fact that you
at least capitalize "I" when referring to yourself, will save you.
leenl March 1st, 2004, 01:13 PM

o o h , I a m so sorry,its my first post.
I m ent m ixing two pa rts by vo lum e p o t a s s i u m picrate with one part by volume potassiumnitrate.
Bert March 1st, 2004, 04:10 PM

I m ent m ixing two pa rts by vo lum e p o t a s s i u m picrate with one part by volume potassiumnitrate.
That m ix is used for old fashioned pyrotechnic whistles.
leenl March 1st, 2004, 04:49 PM

o.k thank you.
I was thinking m aybe is it able to deto nate,like the m ix ture of leadpicrate and potassium chlorate that is/was used in firingcaps
I believe.
mongo blongo March 1st, 2004, 08:22 PM

Dude, try to use spaces when they are needed like -Lead SPACE Picriate and Potassium Nitrate. It just looks better. ;)
Blackhawk March 2nd, 2 004, 06:19 AM

"like the m ix ture of leadpicrate and potassium chlorate that is/was used in firingcaps I believe."
If by firing cap you m ean percussion cap I think they were MF and are now lead azide.
leenl March 2nd, 2 004, 04:25 PM

yes,thats true, I ment percussion caps,and I re d s o m ewhere tha t in rimfires they use som e t i m e s m i x t u r e s o f p o t a s s i u m
chlorate with ddnp or lead picrate,and MF is also sometim e s m ix ed with potassium chloraat.
kingspaz March 2nd, 2 004, 06:37 PM

l e e n l, for this sham bles i will ban you. you have shown som e h o p e t h o u g h by preparing potassium picrate so the ban will only
last 10 days. during this tim e l e a r n h o w t h i s p l a c e w o r k s a n d l e a r n m o r e a b o u t e x p l o s i v e s . n e x t t i m e t h e b a n m a y b e
permanent.
i h a v e n o t m a d e p o t a s s i u m p i c r a t e b e f o r e . i h a ve m ade sodium picrate though. it burnt pathetically with the odd crackle.
has anybody had any sucess sensitising AN type compositions with K-picrate?
T_Pyro March 3rd, 2004, 02:19 AM

Picrates get m ore unstable as the atomic weight of the cation (m etallic radical) increases. Sodium picrate, therefore would be
l e s s e x p l o s i v e t h a n p o t a s s i u m picrate. Lead picrate, having the heaviest metallic ion, is the m o s t e x p l o s i v e . T h e r e a s o n f o r
this behaviour is probably that the metal - picrate bond gets mo re unstable as the covalent nature increases (this b ehaviour is
sim ilar to that of m etallic azides).
SantasL.Helper April 19th, 2004, 11:31 AM

what kind of picrates can be (sort of) safely used as prim ary HE, other than lead picrate?
2,4,6-TNP April 20th, 2004, 03:14 AM

Dear Santas Helper,
R o s c o B o d i n e a n d I h ad a long conversation about the use of picrates as prim aries in blasting caps. The bottem line is there
are NO picrates that will directly detonate a high explosive. However Diazodinitrophenol can and it is m ade from Picric Acid. I
discovered that the m ost powerful picrate is Basic Lead Picrate and it will low order detonate. Picrates should not be considered
high explosives at all, but rather low explosives capable of self-deflageration. I think basic lead picrate is best used simply to
ignite a more powerful primary such as Lead Azide. I have tried and tried to get lead picra te to detonate picric acid, but it
sim ply won't work and therefore it would certain l y n o t b e a b l e t o d e t o n a t e a l e s s s e n s i t i v e h i g h e x p l o s i v e . Y ou would do best to
l e a r n h o w t o m a k e l e a d a z i d e ! Y o u c a n g e t t h e n e c c e s a r y S o d i u m a z i d e f r o m a u t o m o b i l e a i r b a g s a n d y o u c a n m ake your own
l e a d acetate or lead nitrate. Diazodinitrophenol is m ore difficult to m a k e a n d i s n o t a s p o w e r f u l a s l e a d a z i d e a n d y o u w i l l h a v e
to figure out how to m a k e s o d i u m nitrite which is a pain in the ass. Mercury fulminate is also a good prim ary to look into, bu t
you will need concentrated nitric acid and mercury is not always easy to com e by. You'd do best to stick with lead azide as it is
s a f e r than m ercury fu lm i n a t e a n d m o r e p o w e r f u l a n d m o r e e a s y t o m ake, not to m ention you will get an outstanding yield as
compared to mercury fulminate.
SantasL.Helper April 20th, 2004, 08:31 AM

How about trying to use Lead picrate to det something m ore sensitive, like NG and use a fireing train for detonating larger and
m ore insensitive charges? You sure lead picrate doesnt detonates?
2,4,6-TNP April 21st, 2004, 12:14 AM

Yes, Lead Picrate will absolutly detonate pure n itroglycerine, but even black powder could do that. You could use this firing train
in the following mann er: Take a small, threade d, iron pipe nipple (probably 2 inches long and 1/2 to 3/4 inches in diam eter)
p u t o n e e n d c a p o n a nd fill the pipe 3/4 full of pure nitroglycerin . Next ta k e a 9 / 3 2" alum inum tube, cutt it so it is 1 3/4" long
and crim p it shut at o ne end. Fill the aluminum tube to the top with basic lead picrate and insert a waterpro of fuse or electric
m atch, now crimp the end. YO U'RE Now drill a h ole in the other pipe cap the size of your fuse. Insert your lead picrate blasting
cap into the nitroglycerine and carefully insert the fuse through the pipe cap and screw it o n tightly. Don't le t any nitro get on
the threads or the friction of screwing it shut m ay detonate it! STILL Now put som e wood glue or silicone at the part of the fuse
goin g into the pipe and let it dry. You now have a small "bomb" that can be put into a barrel of ANFO or whatever other high
explosive and it will d etonate it. NOT Nitroglycerine is a good base charge, but like you see above it is not very practicle to use
in a blasting cap, because it is a liquid. It can't just be put on top of the prim ary because you prob ably wou ldn't get it to
detonate with a fuse. USINGThe key to the abo ve device is confinem ent and seperation. I got this idea for this device from
reading about Alfred Nobels underwate r detonation experim ent were he put black powder in a vial and fitted it with a fuse.
PARAGR APH He then put it into a steal canister filled with nitro and water proofed it all and lit it and through it into a canal and
the whole m ass of nitroglycerine fully detonated. BREAKS!Before this he tried usin g glass beakers with a cork for the sam e
purpose, but it failed to deton ate. He concluded that the steel allows the neccesary pressure containment a n d h e n c e
confinement for the detonation.
NBK
Note: for the above d evice and the below actua l blasting cap the lead picrate should not be pressed in but shoud rem ain loo se
powder, if it is pressed it may not be a b l e t o d e t o n a t e .
A good firing train and a practicle blasting cap is to press 2 gram s of dry picric acid into an a l u m i n u m t u b e , t h e n p r e ss into that
2 gram s lead azide, then on top of that 1 to 1.5 grams of lead picrate. T his will solve the problem o f l e a d a z i d e ' s f l a m e
insensitivity. Kaboom!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > silver acetylide problems
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iheardlikeaboom March 3rd, 2004, 04:31 PM

Hello all,
I have tried several times to detonate ammonium nitrate+nitromethane with a detonator containing at least 9grams of silver acetylide (in a copper tube). I never succeeded. I
tried it also on TNB (trinitrobenzene) but it didn't work out either.
I was thinking of making some sort of shaped charge out with the copper detonator tube itself and the same amount of silver acetylide. Do i may have a chance of detonating
ANNM this way?
Anyway, thanks a lot,
iheardlikeaboom
simply RED March 3rd, 2004, 05:56 PM

Did you get the acetylide-nitrate complex properly?
Anyway, your first post-thread IS out of the forum rules!!!
vulture March 3rd, 2004, 07:12 PM

silver acetylide in copper tubing....*shakes head in disbelief*
Marvin March 3rd, 2004, 11:50 PM

Maybe you should have called yourself 'IheardlikeaHED'. First post starting a thread, asking a question and the wrong title for the chosen forum.
Gerry in usenet posts has previosly suggested people read the KINEPAC patents to find out how he made the mixture cap sensitive. Depending on if you are using a pure
acetylide or the double salt the initiator could be very weak, even with 9 grams to play with. I would think a booster of a sensitive secondary would be the order of the day, or
you could go for the popular brainless aproach of large amounts of AP putty, something that requires more balls than sense and only slightly more IQ points than remaining
fingers.
vultures point about silver salts in copper casings is valid, but this is something you either pick up on or not. Redox does have some uses and it all helps with not getting
yourself killed.
Heres hoping you read the forum rules and keep all your fingers.
iheardlikeaboom March 4th, 2004, 01:28 PM

Well my first post was pretty f.up then, and i sincerely apologize to all those that i may have deeply offended by neglecting this forums rules. I dont know that much
about forums. So peace and love to all of you and may Jesus bless you all with well, that should do it :confused:
The silver acetylide is of good quality (made with an chemical expert, who replied several times on this f orum i think). I didnt insert those double salts straight into a
copper tube, first in a straw, nicely sealed from all moisture. I also added Nickelnitrate+Hydrazine as a booster.
So, is my idea of a shaped charge with the copper detonator tube a silly one ?
Many thanks and humble regrets.
IheardlikeNOTHING
Microtek March 5th, 2004, 02:22 PM

This sounds like Philou's brand of detonator, so are you working with him, or simply following his advice ?
Anyways, if you use a booster then you only need enough primary ( silver acetylide nitrate ) to get the booster going. Then you should increase the amount of booster ( 0.5 -
1.0 g should be plenty - if it is a decent booster; I've never tried the trishydrazine nickelnitrate for lack of Ni ) to get a reliable detonator.
I don't think a shaped charge detonator will be very effective for transmitting detonation.
Marvin March 5th, 2004, 09:54 PM

My understanding is focused detonation is the norm for commercial caps. When placed against a metal plate they should leave a 'dot' at the focal point.
In general, Id be inclined to worry about the chemistry, and work on better physics later. If 9G is failing, theres a problem, rather than a need for improvement.
A drinking straw might be impeding the det wave but Ive never tried that primary, and I think Ive never heard of let alone used that booster. Is it pressed well, no voids, not a
loose powder? High det velocity?
GreenCoat March 6th, 2004, 06:07 PM

Go back to square one:
1) Is the ammonium nitrate dry? How finely divided is it? What kind of container are you packing it into? Plastic or metal? What is the wall thickness and the diameter of the
charge?
2) Is the nitromethane homemade or commercial? How old is it? How well are you mixing it with the ammonium nitrate?
3) Are you getting incomplete detonation or no detonation at all?
4) Have you ever detonated ANNM mixes before?
These are rhetorical questions. Your problem may not be the detonator at all, but the charge itself. ANNM mix, if well prepared, should go off with 9grams of AgC2. I realize
that double salts are easier/faster/less complicated to make, but nothing will beat RDX or PETN as a booster. You could use either of those with AgC2 on top.
If you insist on using silver acetylide, you should make the double salt AgC2.AgN03 (do a search) as it has a faster detonation velocity. Good luck.
iheardlikeaboom March 7th, 2004, 07:46 AM

This sounds like Philou's brand of detonator, so are you working with him, or simply following his advice ? :cool:
Microtek
A drinking straw might be impeding the det wave but Ive never tried that primary, and I think Ive never heard of let alone used that booster. Is it pressed well, no voids, not a
loose powder? High det velocity?
Marvin
Go back to square one:
Greencoat
1) Is the ammonium nitrate dry? How finely divided is it? What kind of container are you packing it into? Plastic or metal? What is the wall thickness and the diameter of the
charge?
2) Is the nitromethane homemade or commercial? How old is it? How well are you mixing it with the ammonium nitrate?
3) Are you getting incomplete detonation or no detonation at all?
4) Have you ever detonated ANNM mixes before?
These are rhetorical questions. Your problem may not be the detonator at all, but the charge itself. ANNM mix, if well prepared, should go off with 9grams of AgC2. I realize
that double salts are easier/faster/less complicated to make, but nothing will beat RDX or PETN as a booster. You could use either of those with AgC2 on top.
If you insist on using silver acetylide, you should make the double salt AgC2.AgN03 (do a search) as it has a faster detonation velocity. Good luck.
First of all, thanks for replying to all of you lads.
Microtek, you're a good detective, indeed i know Philou, and we occasionally try to detonate substances.
Marvin: It's not toughly pressed in the straw, just tightly tapped or packed. The nickelnitrate+hydrazine is supposed to have something like a 7000m/s det velocity.
Greencoat:1) the AN was definately dry, one of the test had AN from cold packs, another was from fertilizer. The container were steel. By the way, it was a steel square tube
and it was ripped in 3 parts, so i suppose the detonator had at least some effect. the diameter of the blasting cap was about 1cm and the metal container, around 4cm and its
wall thickness about 2mm. I think it contained roughly 300 grams of ANNM.
2)the nitromethane was commercial (99%), 3 years old. The mixing was done thoughroughly in a glass jar, with a rod.
3)Well, there was definately ANNM splattered all over the floor, so maybe just a small a part detonated, but i doubt it.
4) NO
The type of silver acetylide is Ag2C2. HNO3, so it has the better det velocity then the other double salts.
Would it be possible that the AN contained some sort of "protection", ie a substance that will unable it to function as an axplosive? Because, indeed it's weird that with such a
strong detonator, the ANNM didn't go off. :(
MAny thanks,
IHOPEtohearlikeaboom
simply RED March 7th, 2004, 10:18 AM

Why don't you make urea nitrate and detonate it with 0.5 gram HMTD + 1 gram RDX or PETN , or 2 grams HMTD. 70-100 grams booster in electrolyte capacitor.
Safe, powerful, reliable.
GreenCoat March 7th, 2004, 07:18 PM

Would it be possible that the AN contained some sort of "protection", ie a substance that will unable it to function as an axplosive? Because, indeed it's weird that with such a
strong detonator, the ANNM didn't go off. :(
When used as a fertilizer, the AN prills are commonly coated with a very thin layer of calcium stearate to help retard water absorption. If you ground the AN into a fine powder,
the small amount of calcium stearate should not have made a difference, especially if you are using nitromethane as a sensitizer. Maybe you could try the same thing but with
aluminum powder (9% by weight of the AN used) as the sensitizer? Also, you do realize the very unusual property of both urea nitrate and ammonium nitrate: their ease of
detonation is inversely proportionate to the density of loading. Translation: Don't pack it in tightly, but as loosely as possible. Again, with nitromethane as a sensitizer, you will
have some leeway in this regard.
Good luck.
Marvin March 9th, 2004, 01:11 AM

If you can say with certainty that the booster is completely detonating then the problem is not with the cap. This said, the loosly packed powder is doing you no favours and
probably wouldnt support a decent det wave for focusing anyway.
In so much as detonators need pressing, one method in one of the fringe books uses a large tool the shape of an 'm' and a tree trunk. The det goes into a hole in the trunk
and the tools lets you press the detonator (by pulling), with your body/head/hands on the oppasit side of the trunk nowhere neer in case it goes off.
I am under the impression that the double salts are all crystals of silver(I) acetylide and silver(I) nitrate in varous proportions formed in dilute nitric acid solution. I'm quite
convinced such a salt would not stably contain nitric acid.
thrall March 9th, 2004, 07:14 AM

well, this might be off the discussion going on but as per the title(silver acytilide problem) I would say only one thing....Don't make it.I just made it few days ago.
I added ammonia to silver nitrate and passed acytelene through it.everything was fine and there was good enough yield.I filtered it and left it on the filter to dry.while it was
almost dry i seperated the clumpd from the filter.And when it was completely dry(almost) Itried to poure it in a PLASTIC bowl and BOOM....It detonated when I was pouring it
in the bowl.
As I've read it is very sesitive I made only very small amount and used plastic bowl but this thing is far more sensitive than some people may think of.

Plastic bowls are ideal for harvesting static electricity....

Why don't you make urea nitrate and detonate it with 0.5 gram HMTD + 1 gram RDX or PETN , or 2 grams HMTD. 70-100 grams booster in electrolyte capacitor.
Safe, powerful, reliable.
simply RED
To Simply Red and Greencoat, I do have some urea nitrate laying around. Well "I" isn't really correct, i'm just the "lab assistant", the real science whizz with whom i try out
devices can't get hold of a computer right now.
I've read that the detonation velocity of urea nitrate is somewhere in between 3500 -- 4500 m/s ? This is unfortunately inferior to a good mix of ANNM.
In so much as detonators need pressing, one method in one of the fringe books uses a large tool the shape of an 'm' and a tree trunk. The det goes into a hole in the trunk
and the tools lets you press the detonator (by pulling), with your body/head/hands on the oppasit side of the trunk nowhere neer in case it goes off.
[COLOR=DarkGreen]Marvin
To Marvin: Have you tried this "M press" with a tree trunk?
well, this might be off the discussion going on but as per the title(silver acytilide problem) I would say only one thing....Don't make it.I just made it few days ago.
I added ammonia to silver nitrate and passed acytelene through it.everything was fine and there was good enough yield.I filtered it and left it on the filter to dry.while it was
almost dry i seperated the clumpd from the filter.And when it was completely dry(almost) Itried to poure it in a PLASTIC bowl and BOOM....It detonated when I was pouring it
in the bowl.
As I've read it is very sesitive I made only very small amount and used plastic bowl but this thing is far more sensitive than some people may think of.
thrall View Public Profile
vulture
Plastic bowls are ideal for harvesting static electricity....
These double salts have often been made, and without any problems. So the static electricity may be the cause of the BOOM.

What he made was not double salts, but simple Ag2C2. I have also had problems with Ag2C2 that wasn't part of a double salt. I think the explosions occur because of the
sparks which are discharged when many non-conducting surfaces are separated. The phenomenon is called triboluminiscence, and can be observed when breaking sugar cubes
in the dark. It is of course similar to other forms of static electricity.
thrall March 11th, 2004, 02:36 AM

Yes, I made silver acytelide(Ag2C2). When you mix enough ammonia to silver nitrate before passing acytelene you get silver acytelide and if you pass acytelene without
adding ammonia you get double salt(Ag2C2.2AgNO3). I made double salt as well and it's perfactly OK. In fact I've used it in igniter match(inside light bulb) though it's said that
double salt is corrosive yet I theorized that tungston is inert enough.
I used plastic bowl because it won't generate small sharpnels that penetrate skin(like glass). I made an amount less than a gram since the book(Improvised primery
explosives) puts it in very sensitive class and for right reasons. It's a nasty stuff that generates pitch black(atomised carbon I suppose) on detonation.
@ Microteck
I seperated the stuff from filter and broken the mass into small clumps when it was almost dry(not dry). Is it possible that the stuff detonated because of breaking of a crystel?
Far as I think the stuff detanated because it IS VERY SESITIVE. Though I'm curious to know what other people's experience with this thing.

As I said, I have experienced the same, very disconcerting, detonations when gently manipulating small piles of Ag2C2. I cannot say definately if it was the mechanical shock
from a breaking crystal or the sparks generated in the triboluminiscence phenomenon that caused it ( or even a buildup of static electricity on the bowl ). I did, however, notice
that even though the Ag2C2 has enough initiating power to get MHN going in small amounts, its mechanical effects such as brisance are incredibly feeble ( probably due to the
absence of gaseous detonation products ), thus the accidental detonation of a pea-sized pile did not fracture the thin, and very fragile, plastic lid that it was kept in.
Likewise, there was no stinging sensation of shock in my fingers; ringing ears were the only effect.

Thrall:
Yes, I made silver acytelide(Ag2C2). When you mix enough ammonia to silver nitrate before passing acytelene you get silver acytelide and if you pass acytelene without
adding ammonia you get double salt(Ag2C2.2AgNO3). I made double salt as well and it's perfactly OK.
Pardon my ignorance as i'm just a newbie here, but i thought that the term "double salts" was a general term given to the different kinds of Ag2C2. So basically, what i have,
Ag2C2. HNO3 is called more precisely double salts, since i didn't add ammonia in the process of making it?
simply RED March 12th, 2004, 09:45 AM

I don't say to use UN as a base charge. Use it as a booster. 70-100 grams are enough to set off everything! And it can be set off with 1 gram hexogen or 2 grams HMTD or
number 8 cap.
Why do you have to try very complicated sensitive low powerful explosives when you have this.
vurr March 13th, 2004, 06:21 PM

another silver-compound mentioned to explode at 140deg.C :
silver oxalate Ag2C2O4
sol.H2O: 0.0034 g/100g @ 18C (book from 1971;rus).
comments/results??
kingspaz March 17th, 2004, 05:37 PM

the way to ensure no Ag2C2 formation is to make an AgNO3 solution in dilute HNO3. i did this with Ca(NO3)2 and H2SO4 followed by filtration of the CaSO4 precipitate. after
addition of the AgNO3 C2H2 was bubble through. Ag2C2*Ag2SO4 (i think) seems to be VERY mildly energetic so the small amount of Ag2SO4 left after addition of the nitrate
serves to make the final product very slightly safer. i don't know why this HNO3 solution thing works but it seems to and federoff agrees.
i think people should do their homework before attempting synthesis of this compound as it can easily go wrong.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Acetate for Primaries
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2,4,6-TNP March 17th, 2004, 06:20 PM

Lead Acetate Synthesis:
Materials:
10 Grams Lead Monoxide

200 mL White Vinegar (5% Acidity)
Procedure:
In a medium suace pan place 10 grams of lead monoxide.

To this add 200 mL white vinegar (5% acidity).
Heat mixture on a stove top over medium high heat.
Maintain a constant boil. Reduce this mixture until all the vinegar has
evaporated. Then quickly remove from heat source and allow to cool.
Note: During most of the reducing process the mixture will be an

orangish color but just before all the vinegar has evaporated the solution will turn a blackish-gray color.
After cooling, a grayish powder will be left in the sauce pan.

Collect the powder and store it in an airtight container.
Lead acetate takes up carbon dioxide from the air, and therefore becomes water insoluble. Yeild is same as amount of lead monoxide used.
When this 10 grams of gray powder is added to 200 mL of water it dissolves into a cloudy white solution. When this cloudy white solution is filtered all of it goes through the
filter with a little undissolved lead acetate left in the filter. If the gray powder is heated above 100 Celsius it begins to decompose into lead monoxide. Decomposition is
complete above 200 Celsius.
This material is great for sythesis of lead azide, lead picrate, lead styphnate, Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt and can even be used to synthesize lead nitrotetrazole, basic salt
Pb(HO)2. Basically it's a cheap substitute for lead nitrate.
Warning: I recommend wearing a gas mask during this process to avoid lead vapors and the noxious smell of acetic acid. Lead acetate is a carcinogen so use care and take
precautions: gloves, gas mask ect.
I also want to use this thread to discuss with you your experiances with lead acetate and its use in explosive manufacture.
chemoleo March 17th, 2004, 07:50 PM

A while back I managed to solubilse a couple of kilograms of lead with a neat little method. I didnt want to waste HNO3 for the dissolution, neither NH4NO3 etc. Neither did I
have any existing lead salts, or lead oxide.
But I did have about 20 kg of solid lead metal, plus 10 kg of copper sulphate (CuSO4), obtained from a gardeners store.
I got it to work as follows:
1. Calcium carbonate is easily obtained, I neutralised a known amount with acetic acid (conc. vinegar), yielding a solution of calcium acetate.
2. I dissolved an equimolar amount of Copper sulphate CuSO4, and added to it the stoichiometric amount of calcium acetate. What you get is copper acetate and calcium
sulphate
3. THe precipitating calcium sulphate is filtered off, then the filtrate is cooled to precipitate more CaSO4, and filtered off again. One is left with a fairly clean solution of copper
acetate, which has a lovely dark green colour and tends to crystallise at the surface of the the liquid.
4. This is probably the longest step - to the solution of copper acetate, one adds a large excess of solid lead metal! the finer the lead pieces, the better (faster). Over the
course of a week or two, the copper acetate colour (dark green) slowly disappears, and becomes completely colourless. What happened meanwhile is that solid copper
deposited as thin sheaths on the solid lead. I found no stirring is needed during those two weeks, the copper deposited anyway.
5. The solid copper is scraped off the remaining lead, the lead pieces are taken out, and the solution is filtered once again to remove copper pieces and any more CaSO4
6. One is left with a clear solution of lead acetate. Made from 100% over the counter materials. Slow evaporation of the water in the solution leads to LARGE crystals of lead
acetate, which are very heavy and slowly become milky/powdery on the surface at air! This way I obtained several kg of lead acetate, with minimal effort/expenses :)
PS There is another thread that partially discusses lead nitrate/acetate, it is

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=1845&highlight=lead+acetate

chemoleo ,
Good work .
That is an ingenious synthetic method for lead acetate from

OTC materials . The formation of any basic lead acetate by
hydrolysis may be avoided by keeping the solution acidic during
the evaporation / crystallization . A series of hydrates may
form dependant upon the temperature of the solution from
which crystals are forming . Above 75 C , the anhydrous
salt is formed . Below 75 C and above 22 C , is the range
where the desired trihydrate will crystallize from solution .
A decahydrate with a melting point of 22 C will crystallize
from solution below 22 C .

If the lead acetate is to be used for lead azide, you should be aware that there will be traces of copper acetate mixed in with it. This will lead to a more sensitive product.

In my opinion, the likelihood of contamination by complex and unstable Cu azide-based salts is such that it should definitively ban the use of lead acetate obtained by the
method described above for preparing lead azide. Lead azide is perfidious enough by itself for its handling not be made even more hazardous.
chemoleo March 18th, 2004, 09:33 AM

Good thing you pointed this out.
However, the fact that
1.) no colour remains, and
2.) that the resultant lead acetate can be recrystallised
would indicate that the resultant purity of the lead acetate is good, as recrystallisation normally has the point of removing other compounds that have a different molecular
structure, i.e. copper acetate would be excluded in lead acetate crystals as it wouldn't fit into its crystal lattice.
Also, in electrochemical reactions such as this, the equilibrium lies very very far to the product side, leaving indeed very tiny amounts of copper ions in solution (the reason why
it lies to the right is that copper metal is totally insoluble in water, and effectively removed 100% out of the system, thus shifting the equilibrium to the right..
Plus, copper being visible at extremely low concentrations due to its colour, gives a good indication as to purity. One could always add some ammonia to the recrystallised lead
acetate, and see whether one'd get a blue colour due to the formation of a copper tetraamine complex (this is a more sensitive test)
Actually, I think a much greater 'danger' of impurities, if anything, resides in the purity of the lead used - lead may contain a number of other trace metals, such as Cadmium,
tin, bismuth, anitmony, et cetera. In addition, maybe you'd like to check the purity of the PbO you use for dissolving it in acetic acid/HNO3- I'd bet it contains > 0.0001% of
copper. Just about any lead product will have some copper in it.
For those really worried, you can always precipitate the the lead acetate with HCl, yielding PbCl2, while any potential CuCl2 (which would be similarly produced) remains in
solution.
The PbCl2 could be solubilsed again, by mixing it with Naacetate in hot water. Recrystallisation as before. That will be about the cleanest lead acetate you can possibly get,
homemade.
I do have commercial PbO, so eventually I will test this. Personally I have not many doubts as to the purity of the acetate - no more doubts as I would have with an industrial
product (note, industrial, not analytical ;))
Marvin March 18th, 2004, 10:19 AM

Cunning method, but I bet filtering the calcium sulphate was a pain and a half.
I would think if you added ammonia to test for copper, this would mostly ppt basic lead compounds and probably take most of the copper out of solution anyway as a
coprecipitant, no?
I dont follow the conversion of lead chloride back to acetate, is this a known method Ive missed? I understood lead chloride was virtually insoluable.
chemoleo March 18th, 2004, 09:26 PM

Cunning method, but I bet filtering the calcium sulphate was a pain and a half.
Actually, it wasn't too bad at all. CaSO4 is by far not as bad as filtering something like Cu(OH)2, or similar. In addition, I used a large total volume (>5 litres), and big coffee
filters, and I got the job done in 20 minutes. Of course the filtered CaSO4 was still turquoise coloured, but the filtrate was an intense dark green solution.
Besides, the first time I tried this, I used sodium acetate instead of calcium acetate. Of course, I will have Na2SO4 in the final solution, once all of the acetate has reacted, but
even then, lead acetate crystals could be picked out easily. Due to its ease, I prefer the Ca-acetate method, one doesn't have to be careful as to which crystals to pick.
I would think if you added ammonia to test for copper, this would mostly ppt basic lead compounds and probably take most of the copper out of solution anyway as a
coprecipitant, no?
I guess you are right on this one, I overlooked that. In the case of the copper, it wouldn't precipitate I believe as long as an excess of ammonia is added - again, the copper
tetraamine hydroxide is formed, which is dark blue once again. So, if you added ammonia to the final solution, and if it still contained significant amounts of copper, a white
precipate (Pb(OH)2) should occur, while the colour goes slightly turquoise.
If you are really desperate to test this without precipitation, one could use acetic acid-acidified ammonium acetate and add that in excess to a small batch of the final solution.
In this case copper tetraamine acetate should form (intensely coloured just as well), while the lead acetate remains in solution.
I dont follow the conversion of lead chloride back to acetate, is this a known method Ive missed? I understood lead chloride was virtually insoluable.
The point here is to further purify lead acetate, if it is felt necessary.
Once you precipiate the lead acetate by converting it to the chloride, the sparkling white precipitate (done that) is washed with cold water, and any copper/cadmium etc
impurities are washed through (as those chlorides are soluble).
Then, the washed lead chloride is added to hot distilled water and stirred continuously, to bring as much into solution as possible (lead chloride is slightly soluble, so a few
grams will dissolve). It doesnt matter if not all dissolves, as the following should happen: lead chloride in solution, in the presence of sodium acetate, will be converted to Pb
acetate and NaCl. More PbCl2 can dissolve, as we just removed some... and so it proceeds. Eventually all PbCl2 has dissolved and is converted to Pb-acetate.
Then recrystallisation as before, shouldnt be a a problem (see above) to distinguish the crystals. Does that make sense?
Phew... at last:
Rosco Bodine - what you said about the basic lead acetates- it reminded me of what I had initially: when the Ca acetate started reacting over the course of a week or two, I
noticed that an insoluble yellowish substance accumulated at the side of the reaction vessel.
Thinking, oh, this must be because the HAc evaporates (which is, as I found out later, because the double salt of the hydroxid/acetate forms), I added 500 ml of 20% HAc to
the 5 litres in the reaction vessel - and promptly, the yellowish stuff disappeared, and it was a clear green (later clear altogehter) solution again.
From that point onwards, I always made sure I keep the solution acidic, with excess acetic acid!
The lead acetate crystals that I have (between 5- 8 cm in size ) are now all milky unfortunately (2 years later), as I kept them on air. However, what is inside of those crystals
is still pure lead (II) acetate :D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Primary Explosives a very important
inquiry!
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2,4,6-TNP March 19th, 2004, 07:15 PM

Dear Forum Members,
It has come to my attention the need to post a thread that should result once and for all for this community the actual value
of each primary explosive being established on the basis of experiance and not based on heresay or what someone else has
said or read, but practical knowledge based on what has been acheived by the experiance of trial and error.
The reason I have decided to write this post is I want every member here to have access to a list of primary explosives and
the minimum amount needed to detonate a high explosive that it is directly contacting.
For example Lead picrate's value as a primary explosive has been in question in this forum. The question of truth as to if it is
capable of detonating directly a high explosive such as TNT, PETN, RDX ect. My own experiments have been inconclusive. My
only reason for believing at all that it could detonate a high explosive is because the educated man Jared B. Ledgard, A.A.S,
B.S., M.A. of Seattle, Washington U.S.A has stated in his Preparatory manual of explosives and I quote:
The following compound is used in place of lead styphnate, lead azide, mercury fulminate, or diazodinitrophenol in their
respective places in the standard blasting cap as indicated under explosive munitions of RDX. To prepare: Simply mix 160
grams of freshly prepared wet basic lead picrate with 20 grams of potassium chlorate, and 20 grams lead tetraoxide.
Thoroughly blend the mixture in a porcelain dish to form a well defined, thoroughly mixed composition. The well-blended
mixture will have a distinctive red color; vide supra lead tetraoxide. Afterwards, pack the mixture into a steel tube that is the
exact diameter of the desired blasting cap, and only 1/5th the total length thereof ( the idea here is to form a pellet of this
initiating mixture, so the pellet can be placed on top of the blasting caps main charge; RDX. This eliminates the need to
"press" this initiating composition into the blasting cap), and then cure for several days at room temperature. Then, remove
the "pellet" and simply slide it into your desired blasting cap. end quote!
Now, I'm not one to question the validity of a man's words who has more degrees and education than I ever will, but
experiance is greater to us than all the books in the world.
So then let's discuss this. There are alot of primary explosives mentioned in this forum, but I say we should in this thread
seperate the wheat from the chaff! The only primary explosives with a historical military or agricultural use in blasting caps that
I know about is mercury fulminate, about two grams of it was pressed into a copper tube by Alfred Nobel and a fuse was
inserted and it was then sealed tightly. This cap was used to detonate nitroglycerine based dynamites in the late 1800's. The
military of the United States currently uses a blasting cap that is made of an aluminum tube 2.35 inches long and 0.241
inches in diameter with about half of it filled with compacted RDX on top of this is a small amount of lead azide and on top of
this is a priming mixture of lead styphnate and barium chromate. Note the lead azide is desensitized by a small amount of
dextrose.
There is no point in discussing primary explosives that are just a novelty and have no ability to detonate anything.
Here is my list of Primaries that should be strongly considered here:
Lead azide; plumbous azide; lead-II-azide

Molecular weight:291.242
Detonating Velocity:5000 (+or- 15) Meters a second
Sensitivity: easily detonated by heat and shock
Stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when heated to 350 Celsius
Solubility: insoluble in water, but soluble in acetic acid
Mercury fulminate
Molecular weight: 284.624
Detonating Velocity: 3920 Meters a second
Sensitivity: easily detonated
Stability: low
Flammibility: Explodes upon shock, heating, and friction
Tetraazide. Isocyanogen tetraazide

Detonating Velocity: not calculated
Sensitivity: detonates rather easily
Stability: moderate
Flammability: Explodes when ignited also sensitive to shock and friction
Diazodinitrophenol. 4,6,-Dinitro-2-diazophenol
Detonating Velocity: Uncalculated
Sensitivity: Easily detonates
Stability: good
Flammability: flashes when ignited also on friction or shock
Solubility: slightly soluble in water
CDNTA. 3,5-Dinitro-1,2,4-triazole-copper salt

Detonating velocity: uncalculated
Sensitivity: above moderate
Stability: moderate
Flammability: Detonates when ignited
SATP. di-Silver aminotetrazole perchlorate

Detonating velocity: uncalculated
Sensitivity: moderate
Stability: moderate
Flammability: detonates when ignited
CNTA. Copper salt of 5-nitrotetrazole

Sensitivity: High
Stability: Low
Flammability: Detonates when ignited or on percussion, heat, and friction
HGNTA. Mercury nitroterazole

Sensitivity:High
Stability: Low
Flammability: detonated when ignited. sensitivity similar to mercury fulminate.
LNTA. Lead nitrotetrazole, basic salt

Sensitivity: High
Stability: Low
Flammability: Detonates when ignited or on shock and friction
Lead-TNP. Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt

Detonating Velocity: uncalculated
Sensitivity: High
Stability: Moderate
Flammability: Explodes when ignited
Lead Styphnate. 2,4,6-trinitro-lead-II-resorcinate

Molecular weight: 691.501 and 450.287 depending on the form yellow, red
Detonating Velocity: 7300 to 7600 meters a second again depending on form
Sensitivity: high
stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when heated to 260 Celsius and on shock, friction
Lead Picrate. 2,4,6-trinitro-lead-phenolate basic

Sensitivity: high
Stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when ignited or on shock and friction
Silver Nitroform
Detonating Velocity: similar to mercury fulminate
Sensitivity: high
Stability: moderate
Flammability: detonates when ignited or upon percussion and friction
Acetone Peroxide. 3,3,6,6,9,9-hexamethyl-1,2,4,5,7,8-hexoxonane

detonating Velocity: 5250 Meters a second
Sensitivity: high
Stability: low
Flammability: Detonates when ignited or upon percussion and friction
Tetracene. Tetrazene; (2E)-3-[imino(3-oxotriazanyl)methyl]triaz-2-ene-1-carboximidamide

Sensitivity: low
Stability: good
Flammability: flashes when ignited
These fifteen primary explosives all seem to be capable of detonating secondary explosives and boosters.
Please reply all of you with successful stories of detonating a secondary explosive, what the secondary explosive was and in
what amount and form ig. cast, powdered, granulated, wet, dry, and the primary explosive used to detonate it and in what
amount and how was it placed in relation to the main charge.
I'm just posting this cause i'm tired of bogus bullshit that is just some vain novelty that doesn't do a damn thing for us!
Bring the good shit or don't bring anything at all.
2,4,6-TNP March 19th, 2004, 07:41 PM

Also I would like to note that in starting this thread I mentioned that 2 grams of a mixture of mercury fulminate and 20% by
weight potassium chlorate reliably detonates nitroglycerine and nitroglycerine based dynamites doesn't say much as
nitroglycerine can be detonated in a metal container by placing a vial in it of blackpowder fixed with a fuse and sealed with a
cork. It is obvious that the militaries of this world have found lead azide placed on RDX and ignited by a mixture of lead
styphnate and barium chromate as the most reliable blasting cap for general use in existence. It is also well documented that
Palistinian terrorists have used Acetone peroxide with great effect to initiate explosives such as PETN, RDX, ANAP and
dynamites.
So to me it is beyond reprouch that at least these three primary explosives are to be considered reliable initiaters of death
and destruction.
Hang-Man March 19th, 2004, 07:49 PM

It has come to my attention the need to post a thread that should result once and for all for this community the actual value
of each primary explosive being established on the basis of experiance and not based on heresay or what someone else has
said or read, but practical knowledge based on what has been acheived by the experiance of trial and error.
What the fuck kind of sentence is that? after reading and rereading your poorly written and poorly translated post, I got this
out of it:
You want us to separate the primaries that work and those that are just a "vain novelty"
but I say we should in this thread seperate the wheat from the chaff!
I concur. NBK? Care to separate some chaff?
2,4,6-TNP March 19th, 2004, 07:53 PM

I want the Primary explosives that work seperated from the ones that don't!

You have some bad data and some wrong ideas about firing trains .
The velocity figures for lead picrate , basic lead picrate ,

and lead styphnate are way too high . Those figures
would not be attainable in a detonator , unless perhaps
those primaries were overdriven by a cover charge of
lead azide , perhaps along with some PETN .
As for which primaries "work" , well to the extent of their

usefulness , they all work for their particular purpose ,
but certainly not all primary explosives are efficient at the task
of shock initiating secondary high explosives . A particular
primary which is efficient at detonating a particular secondary
may not be a good choice for detonating a different secondary .
The combination used for a particular firing train is a carefully

tested and engineered "system" .
There are incorrect figures published in the technical literature

where the data is only as credible as the competence and
honesty of the source . Experiments will bear that out .
Love your picrate caps do you ? In a patent reference somewhere

I read that the basic lead picrate can function as an equivalent
substitute for mercury fulminate in a blasting cap , *if* the
material is wetted with nitroglycerine and fired while strongly
confined . If the basic lead picrate had sufficient energy ,
then why would the nitro be needed ? Perhaps the patent
reference was incorrect ? But then why does that information
square with my own experiments and observations ......
which contradict your claim of a positive "experience" with
a detonating explosive which in the report you made
was a compound not even accurately identified .
2,4,6-TNP March 20th, 2004, 02:48 AM

What can be said?
All the knowledge we have obtained about explosives is not of us, but has been handed down to us from those who have gone
before us.
If we were born 500 years ago I don't think we'd have much to talk about.
Yet all the information we have we have recieved through the literature and through what has been heard. Still, it is evident in
the many contradictions and arguments that not all the information is to be thought correct. I have found myself the
fisherman trying to catch the fish of truth in a sea of lies.
It seems the only thing we can do is take the information at face value and consider the source; if it is military or of a private
origin as it is obvious many endless tons of explosives have been successfully used by the military and less so by private
citizens. Then we try to make the knowledge we think to be reputable work for us to bring about a desired effect and when we
fail then we question or sources!
This information I have written down is simply literary and how can a private citizen ever verify all the information? It would
take 200 years, for that is how long it has taken mankind to discover it all.
Or perhaps you Rosco Bodine consult with the Almighty so you can never be in error!

When you have good data from your own experiments ,
it is better data than any information you may have read
but never confirmed was accurate . It is more than a subtle
distinction between what you know for certain from direct observation
and what you believe on faith is true from something you read ,
like the difference in evidence from an eyewitness and hearsay
and rumor . You don't have to be listening to voices in the sky
to tell you the difference between what you know for damn sure ,
and what you speculate or suppose , you just have to be honest
about where you get your "knowledge" and how you know that
knowledge has validity . Explosives chemistry should be as matter
of fact as any other heavy industrial process science , like metallurgy
for example , but because of the "excitement" of pyromania and
the obscurity of good data from those with direct experience ,
the science gets "glamorized" with a lot of nonsense perpetuated
by those with little knowledge from direct experiments using a
no bullshit methodical scientific approach and method .
If your results were "inconclusive" , then why did you give a glowing
report of your "picrate caps" in the other thread ?
Maybe I misunderstood your meaning in the word "inconclusive" ,

but in my own experience with detonator sized charges , the
evidence of high order detonation upon witness plates and the
ability of a detonator to reliably detonate a main charge is a
matter where there is no uncertainty , it either does the job
right or it does not .
The source of patents or other literature being military doesn't

assure credibility for the data . The publications of munitions
manufacturers and professional journals is generally reliable .
But there should be a healthy cynicism and reserve about
information from literary sources . I recently had an experience
with a British patent for azides which would appear to be
legitimate , and from a military source , but the information
did not withstand scrutiny under experiments . Another one
for the "cold fusion" files .
2,4,6-TNP March 20th, 2004, 08:27 AM

Thank you for your gentle reply sir!
I think from here I will take things one piece and one step at a time.
I found very interesting the thread on obtaining sodium azide from
auto airbags and I will investigate the matter.
It seems like where there is a will there is a way!
It's interesting to me how so many explosive precursers have found common use in our communities.
I think instead of trying to discern the value of every primary explosive to me

I should just start by investigating one very thoroughly. Lead Azide is as good a start as any.
Well that will do!
P.S. Perhaps I can use that "worthless" basic lead picrate to initiate lead azide placed on top of picric acid.
P.P.S. I long for the experiance to answer my own questions!

That basic lead picrate is absolutely valuable as an easily ignitable
"first fire" composition in a firing train . It is anhydrous , non-corrosive
to bridgewires , and very quickly makes the DDT to low order detonation ,
something like a very fast "flash powder" . It is very close but not
quite as good as lead styphnate , but is much easier and cheaper to make
and serves just as well for most purposes where lead styphnate would
be used as a "primer" or DDT flash igniter , as a match composition ,
or top charge in a firing train . If you are using the little christmas tree
bulbs as an electrical squib , then filling the small bulb with microcrystalline
basic lead picrate gives excellent results .
It was the plain lead picrate which I regarded as "useless" since it is

more difficult to make and has worse performance than the basic salt .
If you want to see an interesting evolution for your basic lead picrate ,
then add an extra tenth gram of NaOH at the beginning of the synthesis ,
and proceed with the modified method I described earlier for improving
the yield to quantitative .
While the mixture is stirring , prepare separately a mixed solution

of 16 grams lead nitrate , and 5.4 grams of potassium chlorate in 200 ml H20 .
After the basic lead picrate has formed as usual , continue the stirring and
heating , and refill the addition funnel with the mixed solution of lead nitrate
and potassium chlorate , and add it slowly by drops following the same method
as before . The color of the dark orange red basic lead picrate
will gradually lighten to a bright yellow , gradually darkening to a more
"mustard yellow" color as the clathrate complex forms . The material
resulting will be a triple salt , which is also a clathrate , and the
compound will be basic lead picrate / lead nitrate / lead chlorate .
The yield should be about 29 grams .
Compare the properties of this material with the basic lead picrate ,
and the power of the 29 grams to the 18 grams of the parent substrate ,
which are both derived from the same amount of picric acid .
Neither one are unequivocal primary explosives , but the clathrate

will be a "hotter" compound , more sensitive and more energetic .
And as a bonus , when made into a putty with acetone/nitrocellulose ,
and allowed to harden , it will form a very easily initiated secondary
high explosive which will high order detonate with no confinement ,
if initiated by a small quantity of lead azide , or a blob of azo-clathrate
deposited onto its surface and allowed to dry . 50 milligrams or so
of 4/12 azo-clathrate will set of a ping pong ball sized chunk of the
hardened putty , with no confinement whatsoever , and the resulting
detonation is absolutely high order and way higher energy than
something like AP putty .
If only flame intitated , the putty will only low order detonate .
Many interesting conclusions may be drawn from such an experiment .
2,4,6-TNP March 20th, 2004, 11:34 PM

I'm wondering about the compatibility of lead azide and picric acid in contact with eachother in a blasting cap. I have read that
lead azide is best used in aluminum tubing 1/4 inch or slightly larger. My real desire for investigating these primary explosives
is to come up with a firing scheme to use in blasting caps that can be safely stored for up to five years and be stable even with
a little rough handling and can be succesfully and reliably fired with a visco fuse.
Do you know the appropriate amount of dextrose per gram of lead azide to desensitize it to meet the above criteria without
loosing reliability. Is there a certain method of mixing the two? Wet or Dry?
Also do you think the lead azide would react with the basic lead picrate over time!
Thanks for your info!

A compressed pellet of Lead Azide is compatable
in contact with compressed dry Picric Acid ,
for long term in a hermetically sealed cap ,
and is comptatable wet or dry with Basic Lead Picrate .
Compressed lead azide is insensitive to the spit of a fuse ,

so either a small amount of loose lead azide must be
present to catch the fire from the fuse and commute
the detonation to the compressed pellet of lead azide
beneath , or an igniter charge like Basic Lead Picrate
must be used as a "first fire" in the firing train .
Lactose would be a preferred sugar if a sugar was to

be used as an adulterant in pyrotechnic compositions
since it is not hygroscopic . But there are probably
better things to use for pressure flowable binders ,
such as gum arabic , or perhaps even paraffin .
Generally such adulterants are coprecipitated as
deliberately added impurities in the solution from
which the initiator crystallizes , so the crystals are
covered with the adulterant as they are formed .
Alternately , the adulterant is provided in a second
solution and used as a "wash" for the cystals which
are suspended and agitated with the adulterant as
a separate process . PVA , ( PolyVinylAlcohol )
is one of the more recent crystal modifiers / adulterants
which has found usefulness with lead azide . Methyl Cellulose
is another one . Both were deemed improvements over
dextrine .
4/12 azo-clathrate is a better choice for picric acid

used in a detonator intended to have long term stability ,
for many years of shelf life in adverse storage conditions .
Is one hundred years of outdoor storage stability adequate ?
That is probably a conservative shelf life expectation for
a cap in which the base charge is picric acid and the other
components of the firing train are stable derivatives of the
same picric acid with which they are in contact . Chemical
compatability is assured by such an arrangement .
Aluminum is a good detonator shell material , but not essential .

If you upgrade from lead azide to 4/12 azo-clathrate , then
you have no worries about compatability of the detonator shell
material with lead azide , and no worries about hermetically
sealing the detonator either . Depending upon the size of
the base charge to be used , column diameters from 6 mm to 9 mm
will result in detonators having sufficient output to detonate
any secondary explosive sensitive to a detonator . For the
relatively insensitive explosives like urea nitrate , good results
are assured by a large cap , overkill being the idea to make sure
it gets the job done . A column diameter of 9 mm and a base charge
of two and one half grams of picric acid gives one hundred per cent
reliability for urea nitrate . Such an "engineers special" detonating
cap will be more useful for more purposes than the usual commercial
number eight caps which are inadequate for insensitive explosives .
Don't rely on literature references for the sensitivity of picric acid

( or other explosives ) to very tiny amounts of initiating explosives ,
as most of those tests report "best case scenarios" where very
strong confinement , reenforcing caps , and other conditions are
optimized for sensitivity . In a real world detonator , you will
find it always takes much more of the lead azide or whatever other
initiator , to produce *reliable* results and highest output . The
idea is not to "tickle" the base charge with the "threshold minimum"
initiating charge , but rather to assertively "knock the shit out of it"
with a compelling impulse that will "rock it's molecular world" in a way
that assures detonation , and makes any misfire unlikely .
2,4,6-TNP March 22nd, 2004, 02:19 AM

I very recently ordered an airbag.
It was for sale on the internet. In the thread -Sodium azide from air bags- it was discussed that these airbags contained an
igniter surounded by small pellets that contains various mixtures of either/or sodium azide, potassium nitrate, iron oxide, and
silicone dioxide. I would be interested if any of these mixtures could be useful as is or purified for the following lead azide
sythesis taken from a manual of explosives.
It's as follows:
Lead Azide; plumbous azide; lead-II-azide Pb(N3)2
Lead azide forms needle like crystals, or a white powder. It begins to decompose when heated to 250 Celsius, and explodes
at 350 Celsius. Lead azide is more stable then Mercury fulminate, and is an outstanding booster or transfer explosive found in
blasting caps, detonaters, and fuses. The salt is insoluble in water, but soluble in acetic acid. Lead azide is a standard military
initiating explosive (mixed with dextrose to desensitize it).
Molecular weight:291.242
Detonating velocity: 5000 (+ or - 15) meters a second
Sensitivity: easily detonated
Stability: moderate
Flammability: explodes when ignited
Toxicity: moderate
Classification: primary explosive
Overall Value (as a primary explosive): High
Materials:
21 grams lead-II-acetate
8.3 grams sodium azide
Summary: Lead azide is easily prepared by mixing solutions of lead-II-acetate, and sodium azide. After the two solutions are
mixed, the precipitated lead azide is then collected by filtration.
Hazards: Wear gloves when handling lead-II-acetate, and sodium azide. Lead-II-acetate is a suspected carcinogen, and
sodium azide is poisonous so handle with car.
Procedure: Prepare two solutions, a sodium azide solution, and a lead-II-acetate solution by dissolving 8.3 grams of sodium
azide into 71 milliliters of water, and dissolve 21 grams of lead-II-acetate into 179 milliliters of water. Then quickly place each
solution into a freezer and chill to about 5 Celsius. Thereafter, place the sodium azide into an ice bath, and then rapidly add
the lead-II-acetate solution. Upon mixing, the lead azide will instantaneously precipitate. After mixing both solutions, carefully
filter-off the precipitated product, carefully wash with 100-milliliters of ice-cold water, and then dry in a disiccater filled with
anhydrous magnesium sulfate. Do not vacuum dry or air-dry. The dry product should never be kept dry. For storage, keep the
dry Lead azide suspended in a water free solvent such as kerosene. The product can be stored wet with water for short periods
of time.
I don't have any anhydrous magnesium sulfate, all I have is magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (epsom salt). I don't have a
disiccater either and they sound very expensive.
I know that this synthesis recommends a "cold reaction", while in some posts I've read the writers say they have used a
"warmer methed" even warming on purpose. Well what of it? Is it a good Method or should I direct my attentions elseware?
Can the Sodium Azide for the reaction be obtained from this airbag? What do you think the yield should be from the airbag
and what about the yield from the reaction?
grendel23 March 22nd, 2004, 04:02 AM

If you want to make lead azide, be aware that it is very advisable to add dextrin before the azide precipitates. Straight lead
azide is almost never used due to excess sensitivity to friction and static.
When I extracted the NaN3 from the airbag I used, I had 93 grams of pellets, which yielded 43 grams of
NaN3. Your airbag will probably be similar.
By the way I was able to find in about 2 minutes what I assume is the auction you are talking about, that would allow a LEO to
find out who you are rather easily. You may want to edit out the type of airbag you bought.
2,4,6-TNP March 22nd, 2004, 07:03 AM

Dextrinated during the synthesis you mean?
Rosco Bodine March 22nd, 2004, 02:06 PM

Dextrinated lead azide has been around for a long time ,
and is made by using dextrine , which is a modified starch ,
*NOT* "Dextrose" which is a basic sugar and an isomer of glucose .
Frankly I never heard of dextrose being recommended as an
adulterant for lead azide , and it doesn't even begin to make sense
why a hygroscopic sugar would be a desirable adulterant for
a moist air sensitive material like lead azide . In fact the idea
of using dextrose with lead azide seems stupid .
I would be very skeptical and dubious about the quality of information

in a text which recommends dextrose . That could just be a typograhical
error , but it is the kind of glaring error that is conspicuous to
someone knowledgeable about the technology they are writing ,
and it is significant enough that it never should have gotten past a
proofreading to be published in a book about explosives , *IF*
that book was written by anyone who knew what they were talking about .
See it for the "red flag" it really is concerning the information in that book .
2,4,6-TNP March 22nd, 2004, 10:19 PM

I believe the dextrose verses dextrine is probably a typo because there are several obvious errors in the text. The author
probably didn't hire an editor.
So do you think there is a need to desensitize lead azide at all for blasting caps. Lead azide seems to be pretty stable when
compacted and cradled between two other powders. Maybe the military just desensitizes it because like for hand grenades and
other munitions that are thrown or otherwise treated harshly.
I wonder what the properties of a blasting cap would be just made from pure dry picric acid, pure dry lead azide, and pure dry
Basic lead picrate. Would it be sensitive to dropping or static electricity?
grendel23 March 23rd, 2004, 06:08 AM

I could live with the friction sensitivity of straight lead azide, but the static sensitivity makes my palms sweat.Check out page 2
of the azo-clathrate patent, here (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/
netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3431156.WKU.&OS=PN/3431156&RS=PN/3431156) the RD-1333 listed is very close
to straight azide. This may not be an issue once it is in a cap, but you have to get it in the cap first.
For that matter, if you have NaN3, you would be much better off making 4-12 azo-clathrate anyway, it beats the
snot out of lead azide in almost every way.
Rosco Bodine March 23rd, 2004, 08:48 AM

"I believe the dextrose verses dextrine is probably a typo
because there are several obvious errors in the text. The author probably didn't
hire an editor. "
Yeah , I can believe that . I have difficulty reading my own notes

and tend to be a terrible writer , especially when preoccupied with
an experiment in progress , watching a reaction with one eye while trying
to keep a log and do some reading to pass the time while other things are being done .
"So do you think there is a need to desensitize lead azide at all for blasting caps.
Lead azide seems to be pretty stable when compacted and cradled between two
other powders. Maybe the military just desensitizes it because like for hand grenades
and other munitions that are thrown or otherwise treated harshly."
The main issue for blasting caps is the safety of handling the bulk powders
by the loading equipment . I believe that careful control of the crystal size and type ,
and uniformity of the crystals is really the most important factor , and
the use of adulterants is not essential for small batches of material which
are made on a laboratory scale where very close control is possible .
The needle shaped crystals of lead azide are something which I have only
encountered when working with acetate containing solutions which tend
to dissolve the azide and stimulate the growth of larger crystals .
I have produced freeflowing lead azide crystals of microcrystalline size
large enough not to show static "squeaking" typical of dry powders like
cornstarch . If you are familiar with the effect where you get little clumps
from the slightly moist material as it dries , and the clumps actually make
an audible squeaking noise when broken under the pressure of a spoon ,
with the powder showing a lot of "static cling" to the spoon and everything
else in the vicinity . At a certain larger crystal size , the crystals lose that
undesirable "caking" tendency and the tiny moist clumps fall apart freely
as the material is drying , giving a static free , loose and freeflowing
microcrystalline powder . An experimental and unpublished method that
I have used succesfully is the addition of lead nitrate solution to a
sodium azide / sodium nitrate solution , the composition of the solutions
having been calculated so that the byproduct sodium nitrate concentration
in the reaction mixture from which lead azide is precipitating remains constant
during the reaction , and the resulting crystals of lead azide are of relatively uniform
microcrystalline size , freeflowing dense and loose yet small crystals which are
not needle shaped , but a more cubical granular form . This material
has not been yet tested to compression loading sensitivity , but looks to be
a fine enough granulation mesh that it would likely be okay under compression .
The decreased surface area for a given weight of the material should reduce the rate
of its deterioration by carbon dioxide of the atmosphere . For anyone wishing
to experiment with the method and the product , or to tinker with the concentrations
or times and temperatures , I will describe the experimental method .
9 grams of Sodium Azide and 6 grams of Sodium Nitrate are dissolved in 280 ml
distilled water , placed in a tall form 1 liter beaker on a hotplate beneath an
overhead stirrer with a propellor shaft extending to almost the bottom of the beaker .
23 grams of Lead Nitrate are dissolved in a separate 550 ml of distilled water
and placed into an addition funnel . The Sodium Azide / Sodium Nitrate
solution is heated to about 90 Centigrade and rapidly stirred continuously
as the Lead Nitrate solution is slowly added over the course of a half hour ,
and the stirring and heating continued for an additional half hour past the
end of the addition . The stirring is then discontinued , the supernatant
liquid decanted , and the residue swirled with 200 ml cool water , then
dumped onto a coffee filter and the residue rinsed onto the filter . The
filter is transferred to blotters to help speed drying . The yield is almost
the theoretical of freeflowing lead azide of granular microcrystalline form .
Proportional , smaller volume solutions and lower temperatures should result in
smaller crystals , and vice versa , for those who wish to change the
mesh size of the end product . This material is completely untested
so please do fully recognize and treat it as an experimental material .
"I wonder what the properties of a blasting cap would be just made from
pure dry picric acid, pure dry lead azide, and pure dry Basic lead picrate.
Would it be sensitive to dropping or static electricity?"
That particular firing train would give excellent results in long term storage
and in use , but you would need to protect the lead azide from the air .
All caps are going to be sensitive to impact and static electricity , it
being only a matter of degree . They are sensitive to heat also . But
all things considered , you could do a lot worse in choice of materials
for a detonator . That combination is a practical firing train . I would still
recommend that the 4/12 azo-clathrate is superior to straight lead azide .
Even if it required twice as much of the azo-clathrate to do the job , it
would be superior to straight lead azide in a detonator , since there is no
size constraint , and long term stability is the priority .
Bert March 23rd, 2004, 11:56 AM

I would still
recommend that the 4/12 azo-clathrate is superior to straight lead azide.
A couple of questions: The procedure originally described by Mr. Anonymous would take in excess of 3 hours of continuous
heating at 95*C. Clearly, a good deal of the distilled water would evaporate, necessitating some makeup water.- What volume
should be maintained during the heated stirring?
Second, in practical use, what would be an optimum base charge and detonator shell material combination for a #8 equivalent,
long term storable cap with this primary? Is the azo-clathrate known to be incompatible with brass & Copper shells for long
term storage similar to free Lead azide?

With regards to the makeup water , I do not recall having to add any .
The sodium nitrate by product in the solution tends to reduce the evaporation .
Typically when running a reaction of that sort there may be a little crusting
of solid materials at the interface of the surface and the walls of the beaker ,
dislodged from time to time with a little stream from a wash bottle which
is unaccounted for added water .
But a tall form beaker of the size described , in which a vortex makes
the contents rise up even higher , the maximum volume of the mixture
is pretty close to the top towards the end of the process . The volume
isn't critical . The whole process could be run at twice the dilutions
described , or at two thirds the dilutions of that example , and the only
effect would be to change the average size of the resulting crystals
of end product . More dilute solutions and higher temperatures favor
larger crystals , more concentrated solutions and lower temperatures
favor the smaller crystals .
With regards to the detonator shells , I have only used aluminum and
polypropylene . But the azo-clathrate is supposedly nonreactive in
contact with copper , brass and other metals so it is not subject to
the same limitations and concerns to the extent which is true for
lead azide . If a commercial detonator were to be contemplated ,
the material I would recommend for the casing is injection molded
clear PFA , flouropolymer , because of many advantages including the
ability to visually inspect the integrity of the contents , and inertness of the
shell to corrosive or reactive blasting compositions which would compare
to teflon .
A gram of picric acid in a 6 mm column would likely give an output on

par or better than a commercial #8 . PETN would be a superior base
charge . For use with improvised explosives though , given the labor
and time involved in making components , I would recommend making
detonators with much larger charges than commercial #8 , using
base charges of 1 to 1.75 grams of PETN or 1.5 to 2.5 grams of picric
acid in column diameters of 6 to 9 mm respectively , the larger charges
being more reliable for insensitive secondaries like urea nitrate .
2,4,6-TNP March 24th, 2004, 05:39 AM

Rosco Bodine,
You said in your post that you used a sodium nitrate/lead nitrate solution for the lead azide reaction. Do you see any reason
why a potassium nitrate/ lead nitrate solution or potassium nitrate/ lead acetate solution can't be used as meet for the
reactions requirements. If this is the case maybe these sodium azide/potassium nitrate pellets from airbags can be used in a
similar way. At the time I have no way of confirming the actual percentages, but it seems I read that it's something like 60%
Sodium azide/40% potassium nitrate. Maybe by simply crushing up these pellets they can be added in solution to a calculated
amount of lead nitrate or lead acetate solution.
I'm still wondering about the optimum temperature of reaction. The Merck Manual states that lead azide's heat of formation is
25 Celsius. Does this mean the lead azide best forms at this temp. or is it just a minimum.
Also I think that I would love to get my hands on some of that material you were talking about for blasting cap housing. Thus
far I have found that 9/32" aluminum tubing has worked well with mercury fulminate. It is obvius to me that it is probably one
of the second best choices over the material you were talking about. It is very cheap, easy to crimp and fold, is resistent to
oxidation, is pretty non-reactive with most materials, I think it's resistent to salt water, and doesn't react readily with any dry
powdered acids like picric and boric acid, it's not as conductive as some metals, it's available at most hardware and hobby
stores. I usually just take a pair of needle nosed pliers and crimp the tube 3" from the end and cut it with wire cutters behind
the crimp and fold this small crimped section back over on itself with the pliers.
I can then fill the cap, and when I'm done I insert a visco fuse and then flatten the end of the tube till it securely holds the
fuse but doesn't dissable it in any way, then I simply crimp the end of the tube on both sides of the fuse and it's ready to go!
as far as I can tell on the crimped and folded end of this cap no water can get in because the tube is tightly pinched and
folded back on itself. However for the fuse side, I am thinking maybe a dab of silicone around the fuse or squib would make
this cap reasonably water impermeable without damaging the integrity of the fuse. Wich would make it OK for long term
storage, but I would still store it in an airtight container to keep the exposed fuse in a dry and stable condition for reliable
ignition. It is important to note that some glues will damage the fuses burn rate and reliability. Probably should avoid any
water based glues and the less you use the better. I'm not sure if silicon is the best for this application cause I think it tends
to shrink a bit which could be bad for the fuse. Maybe a product similar to silicone could be used, one that doesn't shrink.
Also, has anyone here come across B.T. Federoff, Encyclopedia of Explosives and related items? I think it comes in ten
volumes. I'm just curious about it, because it is sited in the merck manual under Lead Azide. I assume any material sited in
the merck manual must carry some authority, as the merck manual does. If you have seen it, what kind of information does
the encyclopedia give about explosives? Detonation velocities, preparations, patents, chemical characteristics?

The use of added sodium nitrate was because sodium nitrate is
a product of the reaction between lead nitrate and sodium azide .
2 (NaN3) + Pb(NO3)2 ------> 2 (NaNO3) + Pb(N3)2
In the simple reaction above , the by product sodium nitrate

increases in concentration in the solution from which the lead
azide is being precipitated , so in effect the compositon of the
solution is changing for each crystal of lead azide being formed .
That varying concentration results in varying sized crystals of
lead azide being precipitated as the reaction proceeds , with
larger crystals being precipitated first and then smaller crystals
being precipitated as the solvent property of the solution is
decreased as it becomes more loaded with sodium nitrate towards
the end of the reaction . The method I proposed was adding
some of the byproduct sodium nitrate at the beginning to cause
its concentration in the solution for the reaction to remain constant
throughout the reaction , which removes one variable contributing to
the formation of varying sized crystals of lead azide .
Thus in the "reaction zone" of the reacting solution ,

the concentration of sodium nitrate is maintained constant
at a little over two percent by design , by deliberately
formulating the reacting solutions to accomplish that aim .
2,4,6-TNP March 24th, 2004, 06:54 PM

Alright, it's clear the pellets containing potassium is not an advantage in this reaction. Well, I have over 50 Lbs of sodium
nitrate, no problem. Just one thing how can I seperate Sodium azide from potassium nitrate? Water, organic solvents. Once it
has been dissolved and filtered How can the sodium azide be recrystalized? Freezing, boiling? What do you think?
Again, I'm wondering about the proper temperature of reaction for lead azide.
Merck manual says: Heat of formation 25 Celsius.

I am uncertain what that Merck reference is about .
Perhaps a particular crystal modification forms at that temperature .
Anyway , do you have a mistaken idea that lead azide

or other compounds only form at some specific temperature ?
Regarding the separation of sodium azide and potassium nitrate ,

There is no significant reason for separating the two . The potassium
nitrate impurity will not interfere with the reactions of the sodium azide .
Determine the percentage concentration which is sodium azide
and then calculate the amount of the mixed material you will need
to provide a desired amount of sodium azide to a reaction .
2,4,6-TNP March 25th, 2004, 02:33 AM

I am uncertain what that Merck reference is about .
Perhaps a particular crystal modification forms at that temperature.
Maybe they are referring to the most commonly used crystal modification used militarily.
Anyway , do you have a mistaken idea that lead azide
or other compounds only form at some specific temperature ?
No! But I understand that for every synthesis, There are certain conditions to be met, including temperature for yield, crystal
modifications that effect stability and charcteristics of the product, and also the safety of the person performing the synthesis.
Example: nitroglycerine.
Regarding the separation of sodium azide and potassium nitrate ,

There is no significant reason for separating the two . The potassium
nitrate impurity will not interfere with the reactions of the sodium azide .
Determine the percentage concentration which is sodium azide
and then calculate the amount of the mixed material you will need
to provide a desired amount of sodium azide to a reaction .
This is good news! I should like to ask, does more water need to be added to accomadate the potassium nitrate in the
reaction mixture?
me234 March 25th, 2004, 10:28 AM

I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss ideas amoungst ourselves and to encourage experimenting? Why would
you not want to know about "novelty" primaries with no importance as an initiator as you put it? They're half the fun! Just
something to mess around with! That's why we're here man, to learn about as many things as possible!
Where once there
Even if half of them aren't really useable in detonators but only to fool around with. And why would you want to put definative
information out in the open for everyone to see?
was nothing but
For k3wls who can't be bothered to go to a good library and look things up but don't mind going to www.google.com and
lounging around at home while their computer does the work for them.
a single, giant
Yes by all means keep you own records containing as much info as possible for your own use and memory, so that you know
what works for you, but don't let other people read it and steal your ideas or results, make them do some work.
monosentence, there
I'm sure many a kewl has been converted to a true experimenter by surfing this forum and getting into it, I know I get in a
happy mood each time I come here.
are now paragraphs!
Please e-mail the info to each other when a few of you want to get together and figure some shit out, but be secretive, be
paranoid dammit!
Correct you own grammer in the future, eh? NBK
Don't let kewls know that AP isn't the best primary out there, let them fuck with their lame shit, leave them be, leave them be
ignorant while we sit quitely in the corner planning our next move.

This is good news! I should like to ask, does more water
need to be added to accomadate the potassium nitrate in the reaction mixture?
Only if you were working with cold concentrated solutions where the
solubility of KNO3 would be impaired , would there be a problem with
the KNO3 being stubborn to dissolve . At ordinary temperatures ,
and even moreso at warm temperatures , the KNO3 is very soluble .
And of course the NaN3 is also extremely soluble , so not much water
will be required to keep both materials in solution together . For that
same reason the two materials would be difficult to separate by
crystallization , although it would be possible by careful experiments
to work out the details of some technique for such a fractional
crystallization if it was needed . The way it would work is to evaporate
the solution until a certain specific gravity is achieved for a certain temperature ,
and then chill the mixture and hold it at another certain
temperature for a time , and then filter out the precipitated KNO3 ,
repeating the process , and then evaporating the residual solution of
mostly NaN3 . Because the solubilities of both materials are high ,
it would be a very tedious process to work out an optimum method
for performing the isolation of the NaN3 . Indeed it is fortunate there
is no good reason for doing that extra work . Another thing which
may occur to complicate separation is that in solution , there is
going to also be formed some sodium nitrate and potassium azide ,
and that fact will probably result in a mixture which will defy any
efficient separation , because of the complexity of the mixture , it
will likely not follow whatever predictions or expectations for what
should be crystallizing out at any point . You will likely lose more
azide in the attempt to separate and isolate it as either the sodium
or potassium salt , than you will obtain from any attempted isolation .
You could simply keep the strong mixed solution as your "stock solution"
of "sodium azide" and determine its unknown concentration by making
a sample of lead azide , and doing the math . The solution should be stable
in storage , just be sure to label it as deadly poison , and handle it with
the same respect and caution as would be accorded sodium cyanide ,
because the toxicity and reactivity is roughly comparable . A few drops
of sodium hydroxide solution added to your stock solution to help it remain
basic would be a sensible "stabilizer" storage precaution .
2,4,6-TNP March 27th, 2004, 02:52 AM

Well Rosco,
I have become a little discouraged upon further examination of my airbag. I was able to gain access to the pellets safely by
drilling through the 1/8" aluminum casing with a 1/2" drill bit. I shaked the casing furiuosly untill all the pellets fell into a
ziplock bag. The reason I'm a little discouraged, besides the fact that I got some aluminum dust mixed in with the pellets, is
the pellets are not what I expected to see. What I saw in my ziplock bag is pellets that are shaped like an aspirin tablet but
smaller, they are shiny and look like they are made of graphite! This same graphite-leadish color is evident throughout the
pellet when one is split in half. The label on the canister I took these from says:
Inflater contains flammable solids: Sodium Azide and Boron Potassium Nitrate. Contact with acid, water, and heavy metals,
may produce harmful and irritating gases or explosive compounds.
I expected these tablets to be composed of potassium nitrate and sodium azide like we discussed. So, anyway, do you have
any idea what element or compound is present along with my sodium azide tablets? I have heard it said in other threads in
this forum that some airbags contain silicone dioxide, and/or iron oxide along with the sodium azide what do you make of this
in light of the canisters labeling?
Well, I hope you can help and maybe you may have an idea about this!
Thanks
Have a blast!
grendel23 March 27th, 2004, 06:42 AM

There are apparently at least 2 chemical systems in use in airbags.
One is NaN3, KNO3, and SiO2 described here (http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/
~edudev/LabTutorials/Airbags/airbags.html).
The other one NaN3 and Fe2O3 shown here (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/
chem99/chem99201.htm).
If your pellets are black, you should have the second type, I used an airbag out of the same make of vehicle as you and had
NaN3 and Fe2O3 pellets. The only water soluble component in those pellets should
be NaN3.
The boron and potassium nitrate are in the squib used to fire the airbag.

What exactly is the composition of those propellant pellets is
something I don't know . There are many patents for various
azide containing mixtures and you could do some reading to
figure out what you probably have .
It would probably be a good starting point to do an experiment

by dropping one of the pellets into a very dilute ammonia solution
( perhaps one tenth of one per cent ammonia ) to test for any reaction .
Keeping the water basic with ammonia should avoid production
of any fumes of hydrazoic acid , which would not just ruin
your whole day , but make it your last one . One whiff is all
it takes for hydrazoic , just like for hydrocyanic , so you never
want an azide solution acidified in an open air scenario .
pH papers will respond to the ammonia fumes over a beaker
to confirm basicity so you don't use your nose to check and
make sure there is free ammonia present as your safety shield .
Likely the particulates are going to be so fine that filtering

will be useless , so just see if the tablets will fall apart and
the insolubles settle to the bottom of the solution , which
may be decanted and or pipetted away from the residue .
grendel23 March 27th, 2004, 04:23 PM

I was hoping that the pellets I extracted would fall apart in water, but no such luck. I crushed them against the bottom of the
beaker, rather a pain. It would be easier to powder them first, but be very careful of the dust. I was exposed to a small
amount of dust from the pellets when opening my airbag and became very dizzy (even more than usual :D ) and my heart
was racing.
I filtered mine with coffee filters and a very small amount of Fe2O3 came through the filter, good
lab filter paper may have gotten it all.
My NaN3 is a very light grey because of this, but it does not seem to affect its use.
2,4,6-TNP March 27th, 2004, 05:05 PM

Isn't iron oxide magnetic? What if I were to crush the tablets and dissolve in water? Then simply stir the mixture with a
magnet on a string, take it out and scrap off the iron oxide, then repeat the process, instead of using a filter or in
combination with a filter?
I am also wondering will the sodium azide in solution react with the iron oxide to make ferric azide?

It would be a good precaution to wear at least a paper surgical mask
and some gloves while handling the dry pellets if they are dusting .
The lethal dose of sodium azide is only a few milligrams and

such a small amount may be easily absorbed through the skin
or inhaled , with the only "awareness" of exposure being one
very dead person . Sodium azide is dangerous , it is a lethal
poison . I once read about a college student who was participating
in a glucose metabolism experiment , IIRC , and the mistake was made
of using an isotonic saline solution containing a few hundredths
of a per cent sodium azide as a preservative , for making the
"beverage" drink which the young woman drank quickly at the
beginning of the experiment . A few seconds after drinking the liquid ,
she convulsed a few times and fell stone dead onto the floor .
The airbag pellets may be made up with a water insoluble binder .

If that is the case , it may be useful to first pour over the pellets
a small amount of acetone , let them sit for a few minutes , and then
pour over the pellets some moderately hot water made slightly alkaline
with a very small amount of sodium hydroxide .

I think they have a coating or binder - the pellets dissolve slowly at first, but once you crush them up a bit they dissolve OK. I
always did my crushing underwater, and I advise you to do the same. As has been stated, sodium azide is not a thing that
you want to get too intimate with.
When I used airbags I never had troubles with ferric azide - it isn't formed.
I used to just crush up my tablets under basified dH2O, let most of the insolubles settle, and decant off the solution through a
filter. Then to make lead/silver azide I'd just add the basified metal nitrate solution until no more ppte formed, and then a
few drops more "for luck." It seemed to work OK, and more importantly, I'm still alive. Work wet and slightly basified is my
advice...
Mumble March 30th, 2004, 10:25 PM

Iron oxide isn't magnetic. At least pure Iron oxide isn't. Trace amounts of iron in the particles could make for magnetism. I
believe the Iron (II,III) Oxide fusion(magnetite) is magnetic. The natural mineral at least is magnetic. Heating to high heats,
the ones required for "artificial" fusion, would probably destroy the magnetism.
I would think that Ferric Azide would perhaps form if you allowed the solution to sit long enough under the right conditions. A
few days would probably do it in a neutral solution. A slightly acidic solution would really speed it up. With a basic solution I
doubt it would happened at all, or to an extremely small degree.
2,4,6-TNP March 31st, 2004, 04:56 PM

Alright! Now that we have exausted the whole airbag thing, has anyone here ever heard of isocyanogen tetraazide?
My explosives manual gives a synthesis for it using isocyanogen tetrabromide( what is this and where can I get it), acetone,
and sodium Azide. The product yield is not very good- only 9 grams of tetraazide for 18 grams of Sodium azide and 20 grams
isocyanogen tetrabromide. However if this is similar to lead azide and is capable of detonating RDX directly it may be worth the
looking into. As I consider the various azides I see that lead azide is probably the best as Ammonium azide is as volatile as
acetone peroxide; a small sample will completly evaperate in a couple days. Cupric azide is more sensitive than mercury
fulminate which makes it too dangerous for practical use. Silver azide is sensitive to light and silver-oxide isn't easy to come
by for me. Freshly prepared mercury azide is less sensitive than lead azide but when recrystalized it becomes as sensitive as
nitrogen triiodide salt. This isocyanogen tetraazide is a colorless crystalline solid with a melting point of 89 Celsius. It is
sensitive to shock and explodes when heated to 150 Celsius. It has very high energy out put with it's massive 89% nitrogen
content. I'm thinking all these azides detonate, not deflagarate when ignited.

US2990412 cites a journal reference for the preparation of
the precursor isocyanogen tetrabromide .
2,4,6-TNP April 1st, 2004, 01:22 AM

Yea Rosco,
The only thing the good old explosives manual says hear about it is that the isocyanogen tetrabromide should be sublimed
before use, because the tetrabromide may break down into unwanted products if it is left to stand for a long time. Just looking
at the chemical name it must be an isomer I don't no much about cyanogen. I know it can form potassium cyanide on
contacting potassium. Bromide is any compound of a metal with bromine.
Just the poor yield turns me away from this explosive, but also considering the toxic risk makes my very shy. I think I will not
make this explosive and I recommend that no one else should either, without reliable safety equiptment.
So Rosco,
When you read the first post of this thread what did you think about the list of primaries I came up with, besides a few of the
properties listed that you think are inaccurate?
Is there any in the list that you have not heard of or that may have interested you, that you would like to discuss. I'm all
eyes!
Rosco Bodine April 1st, 2004, 04:23 AM

Lead azide compositions are useful as reliable initiators .
So far , from what I have seen and learned directly from
experiments , I tend to favor the azo-clathrates as being
the most generally desirable of the lead azide compositions .
The versatility and reliability of lead azide in its various

"improved forms" , along with the economy and ease of
synthesis and other practical concerns , puts it way ahead
of the alternatives .
2,4,6-TNP April 1st, 2004, 05:31 PM

Have you had any experiance with the salts of triazoles and tetrazoles?
I agree with you Rosco, about the Azides I mean! Maybe we can discuss some non-metallic azides; organic azides. I suppose
there's got to be something organic you can react sodium azide with. What do you think would happen if sodium azide were
reacted with picric acid? or some other high explosives. Would we create a primary similar to Diazodinitrophenol? This could
become a wonderful study. I am wondering if the sodium azide would react with straight toluene or benzene. I don't know,
maybe it would react with some simple sugars.
Rosco Bodine April 1st, 2004, 08:16 PM

Have you had any experiance with the salts of triazoles and tetrazoles?
No . The difficulty of the precursors for the triazoles and tetrazoles

has already made my choice in favor of experimenting with azide compositions .
I agree with you Rosco, about the Azides I mean!

Maybe we can discuss some non-metallic azides;
organic azides. I suppose there's got to be something organic
you can react sodium azide with.
Cyanuric Triazide is practical , but you need cyanuric chloride for

the synthesis .
What do you think would happen if sodium azide were reacted with picric acid?
You would produce sodium picrate and hydrazoic acid .
or some other high explosives. Would we create a primary similar to Diazodinitrophenol?
Yes , for example see :
GB406228
GB412460
The product however is inferior to the azo-clathrate .
This could become a wonderful study.
A good study needs some more specific goal and focus

than where this discussion has been going . I mean no
insult by saying it , but you don't seem to be accepting
good information in directing where your focus should be ,
while going off on tangents which will bring you full circle ,
right back to the things I have been saying to spare you
that search .
There doesn't need to be a study done by me .

I already have direct knowledge about the lead azide
compositions which are my preference , and good for any
practical application . The future of my experiments
will therefore be concerning refinements and improvements
upon those materials which I am already satisfied work well .
I am wondering if the sodium azide would react with straight toluene or benzene.
No .
I don't know, maybe it would react with some simple sugars.
Probably not .
2,4,6-TNP April 1st, 2004, 08:36 PM

Well, yes under the circumstances of not having more precursers and really not needing any, as lead azide can get things
going just fine if properly used.
Tell me something! You said you thought that basic lead picrate could get lead azide to detonate. Well tell me about your
understanding of how this works! Is it the pressure or the heat from the basic lead picrate?
Also what sustitutes could you see being used for basic lead picrate and styphnate. I mean, could black or double-based
powder be used to get the lead azide to detonate?
Lead azide detonates at 350 Celsius. So obiously a simple visco fuse alone most likely would not detonate it. Again, does the
basic lead picrate heat the lead azide to 350 Celsius suddenly causing it to detonate or is it caused to detonate by some other
means than the heat?
Rosco Bodine April 1st, 2004, 09:05 PM

The spit from a fuse simply doesn't deliver sufficient heat for long
enough to reliably fire a pressed face of a compressed pellet of
lead azide . Maybe one third to one half the time a misfire will
result if no igniter is used along with the fuse . A few particles of
loose azide , or a bit of loose powder from the fuse core , or a
small amount of black powder will resolve the ignition difficulty .
Smokeless powder is a poor igniter because it is itself difficult to ignite .
A flash igniter like basic lead picrate will perform better than black powder .
The basic lead picrate / lead nitrate / lead chlorate (clathrate) is good too .
See
US2175249
Example 2 describes what is probably the best flash igniter .
pdb April 2nd, 2004, 06:15 AM

Rosco Bodine, this thread happens to "collide" with the one on trinitrotriazidobenzene, as the difficulty to prepare the precursor
is inciting me to focus my interest on cyanuric triazide (CTA) instead.
However, according to a study found in the french "Mmorial des Poudres" and other sources, CTA's handling appears very
hazardous, with possible spontaneous explosion of amounts of small crystals, when bigger ones are reported to detonade
under the tiniest mechanical sollicitation... Have you ever heard of any practical use of this primary in detonators and ways to
stabilize it ? One way consists in melting it with 15-20% TNT to decrease its sensibility, but I don't really feel like preparing
TNT (as laborious as preparing trinitrotrichlorobenzene...). Can picric acide be an alternative (opening a route to PA + CTA/PA
detonators) ? I have found no information in literature about CTA behaviour in presence of acids.
Rosco Bodine April 2nd, 2004, 10:05 AM

GB170359 describes cyanuric triazide .
I have no direct knowledge about it .
pdb April 2nd, 2004, 11:34 AM

GB170359 describes cyanuric triazide .
I have no direct knowledge about it .
Yes, I'm already aware of this patent as well as US1390378. But they underestimate CTA's sensitivity, this is why I am looking
for other sources about its real practical use.
Mr Cool April 2nd, 2004, 12:46 PM

TNT is a bit of a pain to make, and I wouldn't want to heat something that sensitive to >122*C in order to melt it with picric...
Other nitroaromatics may work (DNP, DNT, MNN etc) in order to desensitise it, but then you may be making it too poor in terms
of initiating capability to bother with when you could make eg high bulk density silver azide or one of the clathrates which are
excellent primaries.
What about using eutectics, like DNP/TNP mixtures or something?
"The difficulty of the precursors for the triazoles and tetrazoles

has already made my choice in favor of experimenting with azide compositions"
Urea + ammonium metaphosphate --> guanidine phosphate, + mixed acid --> nitroguanidine, reduce with Zn/HCl -->
aminoguanidine, diazotise --> diazoguanidine, - H+ --> guanyl azide --> aminotetrazole.
Perfectly OTC :D.
Hey Rosco, do you have a list of all these useful patent numbers that you keep posting, or do you look for them as needed?
If you've got them all noted down then there's a topic in L&L that would appreciate your attention!
2,4,6-TNP April 2nd, 2004, 07:23 PM

How exactly is Cyanuric Triazide made? By looking at the name I would think Hydrogen cyanide is bubbled through a solution
of sodium azide! I think I'm wrong about using hydrogen cyanide because my websters dictionary says: Cyanuric - Designating
or of a white , crystalline acid made by heating urea. It yields cyanic acid when subjected to a heating process. Searches have
not produced any info for me on this explosive and I'm thinking that if any type of cyanide is used it could be extremely hard
to obtain, unless homemade from urea, and could be deadly to handle! Best stick to the clathrates of/or straight lead azide.
Rosco I would like that patent list too if you have made one!
For me lead azide is becoming my primary primary, as in the beginning of my explosive adventures, my first synthesis whas
Acetone Peroxide, then HMTD, Ammonium nitrate, Picric Acid, RDX, Mercury Fulminate, basic lead picrate, and finally now lead
azide and it's variations.
I am also strongly considering Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt as an additive to lead azide along with lead phosphate as a
desensitizer. This would make a very dense initiating composition. Just look at the molecular weights: lead azide 291.242,
Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt 1065.69, and lead phosphate 811.5 with this density, this composition probably would not need
to be pressed very much.
Bert April 2nd, 2004, 08:22 PM

Just look at the molecular weights: lead azide 291.242, Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt 1065.69, and lead phosphate 811.5
with this density, this composition probably would not need to be pressed very much.
Don't confuse molecular weights with densities- Two very different things.
2,4,6-TNP April 2nd, 2004, 08:58 PM

Bert,
All these compounds are lead based. Lead is very dense; it's almost four times heavier than iron! All those lead atoms
running into each other can create alot of kinetic energy output in the detonation. I feel this would make for a very powerful
detonater when used in combination with a base of PA, RDX, or PETN. It will detonate anything cap sensitive! What more could
you want from a couple grams of explosives in a aluminum tube?
Again, the point of me posting this thread is simply to inquire about what primaries will detonate a high explosive base charge
and also obviously how easily each one can be obtained, their advantages and their short comings!
Intermediate availibility, cost, and toxicity are of great concern in considering their manufacture.
Also the final products storage stability and ability to be handled safely, and of course it's condition of being able to prorate
powerful shock waves.
Mr Cool April 3rd, 2004, 10:51 AM

"I am also strongly considering Trinitrophloroglucinol lead salt as an additive to lead azide along with lead phosphate as a
desensitizer."
I can't see any advantage in adding lead phosphate. If you want to desensitise it (doesn't seem necessary to me), you could
at least use something insensitive but energetic, and preferably something that will act as a binder also (eg TNT). And why
mix the two primaries? If the trinitrophloroglucinate is to act as a flame-sensitising agent, I would recommend instead using
straight lead azide (or better variation) as a primary with a small igniting charge on top. It doesn't have to be anything fancy,
matcheads will work. There's just no real advantage in mixing them. Also I can imagine phloroglucinol being a PITA to nitrate.
Oxidation -> NO2, low yields, horrible black tarry mess....
Cyanuric triazide is formed by reacting sodium azide with a cyanuric trihalide, the later presumably being made from cyanuric
acid (from urea) and a phosphorous pentahalide.
"I would think Hydrogen cyanide is bubbled through a solution of sodium azide"
If that did work it would form cyanogen azide. But the other product would be NaH, and that is just not going to happen.
"with this density, this composition probably would not need to be pressed very much"
The compounds are dense, and so you could probably get to ~1.5 g/cm3 without much compression at all - which would not be
a bad density for many explosives. But the explosive is made of big, heavy, INERT lead ions and energetic ions. So the
density of EXPLOSIVE (the energetic ions) is still very low, and so performance will be poor. That's how I think of it.
"lead atoms running into each other can create alot of kinetic energy output"
The explosive ions create the energy, the lead ions impart it to the secondary. The more lead you have in there, the less
energy you can have.
"It will detonate anything cap sensitive!"
It will if your primary detonates the base charge. But it will detonate anything cap sensitive because of your base charge, not
because of your primary.
"Intermediate availibility, cost, and toxicity are of great concern in considering their manufacture.
Also the final products storage stability and ability to be handled safely, and of course it's condition of being able to prorate
powerful shock waves"
Well, IMO high bulk density silver azide (HBDSA) satisfies those best, or clathrates sound good, but I have no experience with
them.
Rosco Bodine April 3rd, 2004, 01:05 PM

The nature of this thread seems to be a newbie with an error sprinkled
"explosives how-to-make-'em manual" , and some wrong ideas , who
comes here questioning the better data of genuine hands on experimenters ,
and still seems sure that the "manual" has more on the ball than good data
provided by people who do have direct knowledge of what they are talking about .
I have gone as far as my patience allows with this broad discussion which
it seems will probably amount to a "critical review" of the contents of that
manual , exploring every tangent and "mixture" of chemicals that a newbie
with a chemical catalogue or a school supply room access can read listings
and labels of what is inventory , and imagine is useful to make a bang .
It would seem more productive to continue experiments which are incomplete

in specific areas that have already shown positive results , than to try to
discuss a number of different primary explosives all lumped together in one
thread by someone desiring to be spoonfed the collective knowledge available
about whatever can be redirected to the newbies "mini-forum" created in a
single , much too generalized thread , the premise of which has become evident .
Sorry , but I call 'em like I see 'em .

2,4,6-TNP April 4th, 2004, 08:38 AM
Rosco Bodine,
I have taken a great leap into the world of High explosives suddenly and purposefully! My first steps in this new world have
been staggering like a drunkard or a newly born colt. I am not ashamed of my ignorance or my ill-informed notions about
explosives. How could I know better? You should praise me for my desire to learn! I am sorry if I have not contributed
anything to this forum yet that you see as honorable, but I shall sit back and read all I can to come through with a better
understanding. I am thankful for your "patience" with me. Your replies to my dispicable posts have been invaluable to this
knowledge deficiant, newbie. Thanks again for the time you have spent replying to me. It will be a very long time before I
post a new thread, because I relise I should not plague this forum with misinformation and complacent questions! I will
however reply to existing threads and even then I will be careful to spend a good amount of time in study and carefully think
through what I write down, as what I write will intirely mold this communities view of me and determine if I can ever earn their
respect. What I'm saying is: in the future I'd rather keep my mouth shut than be thought a fool anymore!
With respect,
The bottle breaking newbie, 2,4,6-TNP
Rosco Bodine April 4th, 2004, 10:36 AM

No problem ,
We have all been there .
The body of information about explosives is

simply too vast to discuss in terms like
" lets talk about primary explosives ....which are the good ones? "
However , the closest thing you will find to a "universal initiator"

is lead azide and lead azide compositions including the azo-clathrates .
You won't go wrong to think of those lead azide compositions highly
from the start , because years of experiments with alternatives
will inevitably bring you right back to the lead azide compositions
as the thing that works best for a return on the investment of
your time and money .
Similarly for base charges , PETN rules , but RDX and picric acid ,
also trinitroresorcinol ( styphnic acid ) will show their merit , no matter
what other more difficult or expensive materials are tried to achieve
any small gains in performance . ETN is another good choice .
Suppose you have to spend ten times as much and go to much more
trouble to gain a slight improvement in performance by choosing to
use more "exotic" materials ......the question is why bother , when
it is usually easier just to increase the amount slightly of the cheaper
materials and get the increased output by that method ?
The economics and practical concerns are going to present limitations

upon experimentation done by individuals having limited budgets and
not having fully equipped and funded , licensed ordnance laboratories as their
workshop . There is also the very real concern of how much unwanted
attention may be generated by individuals purchasing "known precursors"
for business that may be pursued more sensibly by "off label use" of
more mundane materials which are OTC .
If your interest is for practical usage of proven materials consider the

facts above and proceed accordingly . You need search no further to
find what works well and is predictable and reliable .
The rest of the field of interest is related more to specialized applications ,

and experimental , academic pursuit , than to anything needed for
usual purposes of ordnance or demolition .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide [Is This
Possible?]
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View Full Version : Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide [Is This Possible?]
Evil_Tree March 23rd, 2004, 08:45 PM

T h i s m orning I stum bled across this... http://www.geocities.com / t h e d o g h o u s e 0 1 / T e t r a m ericAcetonePeroxide.pdf
It is a sm all paper about Tetram eric Acetone Peroxide. It seem s breif an d doesn't really give the full syntheses.
Now I know starting this thread will most likely get m e b anned because I'm still a n00b. Sorry...
I still have m any unanswered question s...
Does this exist or is this a wet dream?
W hat would be the ideal synth?
Is it more powerful/m ore stable than trim eric AP?
Help would be greatly appreciated, I know that there was a thread on this almost a year ago, but the guy who m ade it left off
a t t h e e n d o f t h e t h r e a d a n d n e v e r p o s t e d h i s r e s u l t s . I f n o o n e h a s m ade it I'll give it a shot if yo u guys could help m e with
the synth.
Sorry I sound like a total noob.
nbk2000 March 24th, 2004, 12:28 AM

So why start a new thread whe n there was alrea dy an existant one you could post in?
:rolleyes:
Evil_Tree March 24th, 2004, 09:12 AM

Sorry, it had fallen back. It wa s dated March 25 2002. I felt that the mem bers that posted there would have long forgot.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > The Sandwich-Mine
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View Full Version : The Sandwich-Mine
Trinity March 24th, 2004, 11:15 PM

The Sandwich-Mine is the sim p l e s t l a n d m i n e t h a t c a n b e m a d e , a n d l a r g e n u m b e r s o f t h e m can be produced in a short time.
However, this m ine will only work in a hot and dry enviroment. Rain will m ake it in effective.
The Sandwich-Mine is based o n "Arm strongs Ex p l o s i v e " . T h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e discussion on this forum, about what
"Arm strongs Explosive" realy is. I shall NOT join this discussion; but only stress that in THIS article, it is defined as a mixture
o f 8 0 % ( b y v o l u m e ) o f p o t a s s i u m chlorate ( KCLO-3 ) and 20% ( by volume ) of R ED phospor ( P )
T h e K C L O - 3 s h o u l d b e i n t h e f o r m of a fine powder.
The two chemicals should never be m ixed dry, as the almost sure will detonate.
The two chemicals should be placed in two containers and com pletely soaked with water or ethyl alcohol.
It is then safe to m ix them into a porridgelike m ixture.
The only other item s you need for the Sandwich-Mine are hard p lastic plates - two for each m ine.
T h e m o i s t e x p l o s i v e i s p l a c e d b e t w e e n two of the plastic plates. The upper plate should have been painted in a color that
m atches the ground where the m i n e s a r e t o b e p l a c e d .
I f p l a c e d o n a h o t d a y , t h e e x plosive will becom e dry in a few houers. It will of course becom e dry faster if alcohol is used
instead of water.
The dry explosive is extrem ely sensitive, and when a person ste ps on the upper plastic plate, the pressure will detonate the
explosive.
Armstrongs Explosive is on the paper a pyrotechnical mixture, but in every practical sense behaves like a prim ary explosive.
Do never try to manipulate the mines when the explosive is dry. This explosive is highly u nstable and will sometim e s d e t o n a t e
without any obvious reason.
But it is also this unstability, that m a k e s i t p o s s i b l e t o m a k e t h e se very sim p l e l a n d m i n e s .
P.S. I did NO T write this article to start a new discussion about "Arm strongs Explosive". I have defined what I understand by it
in this article.
Other people are free to have another definition.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Isotope tagging of Ammonium Nitrate.
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View Full Version : Isotope tagging of Ammonium Nitrate.
pony March 25th, 2004, 07:37 AM

Im not sure if any of you have already come across this, but there doesnt seem to be anything on the forums, anyway its is about the chemical marking of batches of AN w ith
Nitrogen or Hydrogen isotopes. I think this is only occuring in the US, and maybe Australia to keep tabs on exactly w here each batch of AN is going.
What it means to those of you that use it:
If you accedently damage anything, or hurt anyone with an explosive and flee the scene, the police can get the residue from the device/charge and deduce exactly where it
was bought from and when. The isotopes will be added in parts per billion, so theoretically the government could keep track of 1 billion batches or ammonium nitrate, and after
detonation the isotopes can be found up to 5km down wind of the scene.
Another thing is microscopic barcodes, that can identify up to 37 million batches of AN, they are made of plastic so there migh be a w ay of removing them. (derived from
Newscientist)
Its silly though because if you get 2 bags of AN from 2 differant suppliers, and mix them up WELL then all possibilities of tracing you should be wiped.
I doubt if this chemical marking w ould ever come into force, but it is getting pushed even more into question by terrorists intent on killing people with it.
I never have done, or will, use AN and im in the UK so this will not affect me, but those of you from the US/Oz may want to keep an eye on things, even better use you
explosives very responsibly to avoid any chance that this tagging may w ork against you.
Zeitgeist April 5th, 2004, 03:53 AM

Wouldn't it cost a ridicuculous amount, to make AN w ith certain isotopic ratios.
It w ould have to be impractical.
vulture April 5th, 2004, 04:17 AM

Not really, as ammoniumnitrate from different sources will already have slight variations in isotope content.
Just make sure you detonate your stuff near farm land or mix it up like pony suggested. Microw ave treatment might work too, because it seems to increase the decay of certain
isotopes.
Marvin April 5th, 2004, 05:46 AM

Microwave treatment will do nothing to isotopic ratios and will not speed up or slow down decay rates. Not to mention that putting ammonium nitrate in the microw ave has to
rank as the dumbest idea Ive heard this week if not the least safe. I'll put this one down to too much caffiene vulture. Hydrogen and nitrogen tagging would have to be done
with stable isotopes anyway. None of the radioisotopes would last long enough this end of the periodic table to be remotly useful.
Simply testing all the batches for isotopic content and recording this would not be feasable, so I w ould strongly suspect this is a pipe dream and/or scarecrow .
Altering by PPB amounts and detecting nitrogen or hydrogen isotopes after detonation isnt feasable either, as contamination with the nitrogen and water in the air w ould alter
the result by such large amounts.

http://sti.srs.gov/fulltext/ms9900762/ms9900762.html
shady mutha April 5th, 2004, 08:17 AM

According to tonights 7:30 report AN has been pulled off the market.
Incitec the company that makes AN says they have a replacement ready to go.
I am guessing the AN age has come to a end.
Damn! Good and cheap and fun.. :mad: :rolleyes:

According to tonights 7:30 report AN has been pulled off the market.
Ha ha... Australia is going to go back to cow poo poo for agricultural Nitrogen? Bullshit! Ammonium nitrate is the largest product of the fertilizer industry, there IS no replacement
in the works. They may require paperwork for purchase, perhaps.
The w hole taggant thing is not happening. The sheer quantity of EX used in the world makes this impossible, even if the taggant technology was workable (which it isn't). The
taggants have to be durable and dispersable- The whole country would be so contaminated w ith taggants after a couple of years that no useful information would be presented
by the soup of taggant covering everything.
This is one of those things that comes around in the press every couple of years and then goes away. Same as taggants in smokeless powder-
Zeitgeist April 5th, 2004, 12:02 PM

They have a replacement to go? What, AN blended with chalk? Anhydrous NH3? Oh no, they'll make meth with that
Maybe they will just restrict sale to people with Turbans and AK-47's
Hang-Man April 5th, 2004, 02:11 PM

Those crazy Australians w ill just ban AN anyw ay, despite the repercussions. I seem to remember an incident in 1997 when the Australian government seized 640,000 guns, just to see
arm ed robbery increase 74%, kidnapping 14%, and attem pted m urder go up 40%. You would think they'd give back the guns after such huge fallout but.the murder rate went dow n 11%
so...
Maby they will seize 640,000 tonnes of AN, and see the population drop 74% because the people have no food. But they still w ont give back the AN because they had a slighly
low er rate of people blow ing stuff up.
Damn kangaroos. ;)
Marvin April 5th, 2004, 10:24 PM

vulture, the process that page is describing is incinerating low level w aste so that the radioactives remain in the ash, and dont escape in the flue gas. It has nothing to do with
trying to reduce the overall activity of the waste.
Bert, I think ZeitGeist is probably on the money for the 'visible' face of fertiliser. The general public sold stuff will probably turn into AN diluted w ith something inert and end up
being sold as nitrochalk etc. AN doesnt have that good a reputation as a fertiliser anyway, it tends to wash out of the soil the first time it rains, its blamed for a lot of the nitrate
contamination of lakes. Having said that this is almost certainly a PR stunt by 1 company and probably wont affect farm buyers, ie the people dealing with enough of the stuff
to do real damage....
They'll ban water next becuase of the ease you can make hydrogen from it, or for real paranoia they can talk about fusion bombs and the ease deuterium oxide can be
seperated from it. Scaremongering will never die, just get furthur away from reality.
Jacks Complete April 7th, 2004, 08:15 PM

I seriously doubt they will be testing the batches of AN before hand! That would cost a fortune, and even the manufacturers wouldn't be able to afford it. However, I can see
them using the isotope ratios to link a certain batch of AN to the suspect. Of course, a decent law yer will point out that, just like the isotopic and trace analysis of lead done by
the FBI, the results don't mean anything since that sample could be a perfect match with a bag from ten years ago, while another sample from the same bag would be
different!
However, they found some idiots with half a ton of AN in the UK last week, they charged one today, aged 17. No doubt he confessed so he could get some sleep after being
held (awake) as a terrorist for six days. We don't torture any more - we don't need to. Getting AN in small amounts is stupidly hard in the UK, yet you can buy a ton or two
easily! I can get off-ticket, legal BP more readily!

This isotope tagging "proof" is going to be shred to pieces bij any decent law yer. A farmer near you using the same batch would tag half the population of the village, not to
mention the food that comes from that field.
You'd have thousands of suspects.
vulture, the process that page is describing is incinerating low level w aste so that the radioactives remain in the ash, and dont escape in the flue gas. It has nothing to do with
trying to reduce the overall activity of the waste.
Sorry bout that, w as a bit too quick with google. Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's a process to speed up radioactive iodine decay with microwave treatment. I believe the
process w as abandoned because it used more energy than could be produced by the nuclear material.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure there's a process to speed up radioactive iodine decay with microw ave treatment. I believe the process was abandoned because it used more energy
than could be produced by the nuclear material.
The only thing that can cause a nonexplosive nuclear transmutation using classical tools currently is a massive laser pulse. Heating the electrons quickly enough to generate
multi-MeV X-rays, in turn causing (gamma,n) or (gamma,p) or whatever reactions or to alter internal conversion factor of a decaying nucleus.
(For comparison: peak power densities used are comparable to entire Sun's pow er squeezed on a 1mm^2 area. No, it's not a typo. It's quite aw some!) A Karlsruhe JRC group
does it on a laser system in Great Britain but it's just a few nuclei at a time, not a few grams. :)
Slowly cooking with microw aves is out of question.
----------------------------
Re isotope tagging:
In my opinion, isotope tagging is impossible here. To analyse isotope content at trace levels, the isotopes need to be unstable (radiative) and one than uses high resolution
gamma spectroscopy (a germanium detector) to tell them apart. So to measure anything after the thing is dispersed, one should have added a nasty amount of activity into the
original explosive. Putting that in a common fertilizer? No way. What is doable is trace-element tagging, though. A masspec or a PIXE system could than see the elemental ratios
from the residuals after the blast.

Not so sure about that. I have read anecdotal evidence that you *can* stimulate radioisotope decay with incident radiation - further to that, there is now a system being
developed in the USA using radioisotope storage of massive energy as a w ay to have nuclear type w eapons without fusion or fission. I w ill post a link, but I think it has been
discussed on the boards before - I will check later.
Vulture, the defence lawyer might be a putz. Sadly, in the UK there are too many bad law yers - I got done because one was shite at his job, and I was proposing legal stragies
that he had never thought of, and points of law that he never though of! The worst bit was, when I asked him his legal opinion of one point, and he sat there and said, "Well,
you are the expert."! :( Should have sacked him on the spot!
Besides, after 72 hours kept awake without a law yer or charges (terror legislation, if ever there w as some!), the poor sod will have signed a full confession anyway...

X rays can be used to stimulate decay in certain cases. This is not that surprising, the effect is only the nuclear equivalent of the well understood stimulated fluorescence. Since X
ray energies overlap somewhat w ith gamma energies, and that photo electric effects are well known in the nucleus, this is surprising, but by no means unbelieveable.
Microwaves on the other hand are equivalent to molecular rotation, its so far away from nuclear effects as to be an impossible idea. The only w ay I can think of microwaves
might be 'used' as part of a process, is in a linear accelerator, and this isnt the microwaves doing the transforming at all.
You have to w atch out on the web, with the money potential for destroying nuclear waste there are a lot of clueless idiots claiming processes, and possibly patenting processes
that simply cant work.
AN is a bulk chemical. If every bag were to be isotopically measured the scale w ould require massive industries and the cost would render AN uneconomical as a fertiliser. The
main problem with hydrogen and nitrogen is they are both present in such large amounts in the air anyway. Gamma spectroscopy is much less sensitive than mass spec anyway
- even for fairly short lived radionucleides. If tagging major producers with other elements like say chromium this would help identify the source of a bomb in a different area. I
still think the tagging and recording process itself is the least bilieveable primarily for economic reasons. Maybe if it w ere done in large batches to identify a shortlist of people it
would be feasable. If an element were used with a large number of stable isotopes, it w ould be possible to construct a system where mixing 2 or 3 different batches together
would still result in identification of all batch numbers on analysis. Scientifically it is feasable, no manufacturer is going to go to the trouble or expense without a legal
requirement though. Maybe seeing what the aussies do w ill provide insight now there is a public backlash against AN.

Jack's,
I'd sure like to see that link. I can't think of a good nuclear mechanism that w ould work like that.
Marvin,
good point. I forgot about using a roentgen to produce X-rays. Silly me, how obvious. :)
I don't agree though that gamma should necessarily be less sensitive than mass spec. 1Bq of a nuclide /kg can routinely be identified with high-resolution gamma spectroscopy.
For Cs-137 (30 years) that amounts to 10^9 atoms per kg or 3*10^-13g per kg which is one part in 10^ 16. Is mass spec sensitivity really better than that? Wow.

You have to w atch out on the web, with the money potential for destroying nuclear waste there are a lot of clueless idiots claiming processes, and possibly patenting processes
that simply cant work.
True, that's probably also why I can't find anything about it anymore. It has been a bit hyped up a few years ago w hen I read that.
Still, even if someone got the tagging to w ork on an industrial scale (which I highly doubt), it still would be pretty shite as forensic evidence.
Tagging the CaCO3 or MgO that comes with it might be a better idea, because the bomber is going to have alot of traces of that on him from the filtering process.

matjaz,
As I w as talking about, the method Jack mentioned is a form of stimulated fluorescence. A specific isotope is manufacturered in a reactor in a metastable state with a relativly
long halflife I think 20 years in one case. As is normal with metastable states it emits gamma rays to get to the normal ground state for that nucleide. A specific low energy X
ray though, w ill cause it to decay at once. So illuminating with X rays causes the material to release its energy in the form of much higher energy gamma rays. I think this was
in the red mercury thread.
A similar method in electronic excited states is used to detect IR laser light. You get a card w ith a chemical coating, you 'charge it up' in daylight and in the dark when exposed
to IR radiation it emits some of the stored energy as visible light.
While if you have large samples, like 1kg, small levels of radioacitivy can be measured. But at the same concentration, if you only have 1mg of sample, this is only 1uBq total
acitivy - totally invisible to gamma spec. Yet it is 1000 atoms of Cs, easily visible to a mass spec, many of which will actually count atoms. My main argument for mass spec
over gamma spec, is that for ultimate sensitivity (in terms of total amount, rather than concentration) mass spec detects the atoms in the sample directly, w hereas gamma only
detects decay events over long periods of time.

Marvin,
> rays. I think this was in the red mercury thread.
:) Don't know what to think of that thread. Between BS, conspiracy and interesting.
> You get a card with a chemical coating, you 'charge it up' in daylight and
> in the dark when exposed to IR radiation it emits somhhe of the stored
> energy as visible light.
Cute! How does it work? So after charging, w e have the the atom sitting atop of a very forbidden transition and then the trigger photon comes... Does it excite the atom to a
slightly higher, less stable, state, decaying in turn deep down? Or is it a small stimulated emission first, follow ed by a deeper one?
In short, is it up-down or dow n-down?
> 1000 atoms of Cs, easily visible to a mass spec, many of w hich will
> actually count atoms.
I'm impressed. Thanks for telling me! What is the detector? Silicon strip? Can you tell, say, K-40 from Ca-40?
I agree, then, that gamma spectrometry is the less sensitive one, needed when you need to distinguish betw een radionuclides and their isobars. Or, of course, w hen you just
have to find about that excited state in Matjazium-144 far from stability ;).

Looking at the trace elements alone would be a bit pointless. What tends to happen is they look at the ratios of certain elements, say Chromium and Zinc and Boron, and that
gives a telltale way to match the batches. To "poison" the check, you need to have a guess at w hich elements you have to dope up, or go for a shotgun approach, and add a
little of everything.
I would suspect that the IR card gets charged to a meta-stable state, then the IR shunts it back down. There are few mechanisms for taking multiple photons are turning them
into one higher energy one, and most of those require either high intensity or very precisely matched frequencies, or both.
Mass spectroscopy is ace. (From memory) The detector depends on the mass of the ions as they follow a curved path. The field strength is kept constant, and the velocity is
increased (Voltage acceleration) or vice versa. The detector is often a single simple counter that detects the charge change when the ions hit it. Other ones use many detectors,
and they can detect smaller amounts, as there is less tracking time. You w il find loads on line about it. The sample goes into a pumped dow n vacuum chamber, and is
sometimes blasted with an electron beam to split the atoms off.
Red Mercury... Does it really exist? Probably not, but hey. If you got a good meta-stable isotope of anything, and did the stimulated release of energy trick on it, you w ould
have a mini nuke, effectively. You just need the equipment to hit it w ith the right levels of gamma or x-ray, and a target.
*EDIT:*
Did anyone else hear on the main news today, on the BBC, that someone stole three tonnes of AN in Australia? Newsworthy only down under, w hen there is a terrorist scare!

I would assume that it would be up, down, as if you take aw ay a NIR photon from the energy of blue/UV visible light there isnt enough energy to still be in the visible range.
I bilieve a lot of mass specs use either electron multipliers or surface barrier detectos, the latter of which I assume is basically an avalanche photodiode with the top cut off. This
is mostly speculation on my part. A high rez spectrometer would tell the difference between K-40 and Ca-40, but for general use these w ould be identical position peaks, though
fragmentation paths and relative intensities would be different Id think.
Gamma spectroscopy is very useful for certain jobs, but it really comes into its ow n w hen you add neutrons to the equation, so you detect a lot of elements that are normally
stable.
Neutron acitivated gamma spectroscopy is very useful when you have a sealed container you dont want to open, like nuclear waste. I would also think if you have a cave and
want to know what trace radioactives are in it gamma spectroscopy might be the way to go without trying to shovel multi gram abouts of mineral through a mass spec. Or in
positions where its difficuly to get samples of rock and you w ant a result for a large area, like oil wells.
I dont think elemental tagging would work well Jack. The chemical mechanisms going on the the explosion would distribute different elements in different amounts. If you use
ratios of isotopes within each element though, you get a much smaller error, and it is by and large correctable. eg, chromium has about 4 stable isotopes, cadmium has about 8.
The relative amounts of Cd or Cr w ouldnt matter, and the general scew betw een the lightest and heaviest isotope should provide a high degree of correction for the isotope
effects for a particular sample.
I think much like DNA evidence the first time someone used this in court it would probably be enough to convinct people without any other evidence. Jury blinded w ith science.
As soon as it became used though people would point out all sort of flaw s with it, and with the accounting procidures. It might turn out to be a useful way of finding people that
might have had something to do with an explosion, and let policework actually convict people. Ultimatly its too expensive to be feasable though. I seem to recall the WTC
bombers were caught becuase the ident number of the chassie in the van survived the blast.
I think the funny thing about the stolen AN in australia, is they probably expect it to be highly explosive.
Jacks Complete April 11th, 2004, 08:47 AM

Marvin, no, I know isotope tagging won't work, I said it earlier on. You just can't get any type of consistency from that sort of volume manufacture, without masses of effort.
The isotope traces in a batch of a ton of lead are totally different betw een the first pour and the last, so what hope for a 500 ton (continuous process) "batch" of AN?
I can see the Aussie kewl bricking it even now, as the Feds (Does Oz have a federal police force?) hunt him down for $200 w orth of AN!

Marvin,
yes, shovelless gamma spec of soil aka "in-situ" is sensitive to roughly 100m*100m area if you do it 1m above ground. It even works for depth distribution of nuclides in the top
30cm or so. The trick is that higher energy gammas are absorbed less than the soft ones on their way through the soil, so for multi-gamma decays you get information on
depth. It can also be done for monoenergetic decays if you do it in several different geometries.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > TATNB (Triazidotrinitrobenzene)
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I would like to extend m y inte rest into primarie s and particularly organic azides to triazidotrinitrobenzene (not to be m istake n
with triam ino trinitrobenzene, som etim es im properly shortened to TATNB iso TATB). It is p repared from 1,3,5 trichloro-2,4,6
trinitro benzene and NaN3. I can access to 1,3,5 trichloro benzene (although it is pretty expensive) and NaN3. However, could
s o m eone on this foru m having access to Urban ski I (I only own volume III) post the nitration process to m ake 1,3,5 trichloro-
2,4,6 trinitro benzene from 1,3,5 trichloro benzene ?
All o ther inform ation about TATNB properties, in particular its initiating power, is welcome.

I rem e m b e r C OPAE has a little info on it, I'll have a look in a few minutes and po st anything useful.
Nitrating TCB is going to be HARD I would think . I don't have access to Urbanski, but I'm sure som eone will help you out there.
O n e t h i n g I d o r e m e m b e r f r o m C O P A E i s t h a t a e l e v a t e d t e m peratures it loses nitrogen. They showed it going to
hexanitrosobenzene, but I think the trifuroxan would be m ore likely, considering that furoxans are produce d by heating 1-
azido-2-nitro b e n z e n e s... it's an old book, maybe they were not very familiar with furoxans back then, I don't know.
Anyway, I'll look it up now and post som e thing s...
Can you get cyanuric trichloride? Or isocyanogen tetrach loride? More possibilities there! I wish I could get m y h a n d s o n t h e m ...
Edit: from C O P A E :
"The nitration, as described by Turek, is carried out by dissolving the material [TCB] in warm 32% oleum, adding strong nitric
acid, and heating at 140-150*C until no m ore trinitrotrichlorobenzene, m p 187*C, precipitates out."
Hardly gentle conditions...
T h e n a n a c e t o n e s o l u t i o n o f T NTCB, or the dry powder, is added to a solution of sodium azide in m oist alcohol with good
stirring. The precipitate can be purified by recrystalisation from chloroform, m p 131*C with d e c o m p osition. It is read ily soluble
in acetone and sparingly so in alcohol, not in water. It's not hygroscopic, is stable in water, is non-corrosive, not appreciably
volatile at 50*C, the surface darkens in light. 0 .665% decom poses in 3 years at 20*C, 2.43% in 1 year at 35*C, 0.65% in 10
days at 50*C, 100% in 14 hours at 100*C. The product (whatever it is) h a s m p 159*C, is stable, not prima ry, not hygroscop ic,
comparably to tetryl in explosive properties.
TATNB has a drop test value of 30cm - not sure what weight was used, th ough. Less sensitive to m echanica l stim uli than is
m ercury fulm inate.
TNT requires 0.02g of the m aterial to detonate when com p r e s s e d u n d e r 5 0 0 k g / c m 2 , t e t r y l , 0 . 0 1 g . I t c a n b e d e a d - p r e s s e d ,
although it doesn't state the loading pressure at which this occurs.
In the Trauzl test, it gives 90% the expansion of PETN.
Mumble March 29th, 2004, 04:12 PM

The nitration set forth in U rbanski I is an industrial proceedure. You'd have better luck with the pro c e e d u r e f r o m C O P A E .
I n t h e s e c t i o n o f h e x a n i t r o s o b e n z e n e , i t m entions that it was initially thought to be a benzotrifuroxane stru cture, but that was
not the final settlem ent. The NMR spectrum pointed to benzotrifuroxane structure . It was classified as a true nitroso back wh e n
it was first made. It was said to be more probable. Now, m any believe that it is indeed a benzotrifuroxane.
Here it is anyway:
The reactor is charged with 980 kg of 30% oleu m to which 100 kg of solid
trichlorobenzene is added during the course of one hour. The whole is heated to 100C for another hour an d kept at this
temperature for 2-3 hr longer with constant stirring. Towards the end of this operation sulphonation takes place. The reaction
m a y b e c o n s i d e r e d c o m p l e t e w h e n a s a m ple of the m ixture taken fromthe nitrator dissolves completely in water.
After cooling the reactor contents to 50C 300 kg of 99% nitric acid are added during about 4 hr. W hile this is being done the
temperature rises to 100C. After all the nitric acid has been added, the m ixture is stirred for another 10-14 hr, then during the
course of a further 8 hr the tem perature is gradually raised to 140-145C . As too rapid a rise of tem perature would involve the
risk of decom position , if this occurs the nitrator contents should be drained off into a safety tank. After a temperatu re of 140-
145C has been attained, the mixture in the nitrator is stirred at this tem perature for further 45 hr. At this stage of the process
the product of the reaction crystallizes. Then the nitrator contents are cooled down to 20C and transferred by compressed air
to the filter. The filtered product is transferred to a washing tank , where it is washed by m ixing with cold water, followed by
decantation, several tim es until free from acid (Congo paper test).
The spent acid contains 13% of HNO 3 a n d H 2 S O 4 + SO3 equivalent to 90% H2SO 4. The washed, acid-free product is filtered
off on a vacuum filter and dried under reduced pressure at 100C. In this way 125 kg of the product m elting at 189-190C are
obtained, which corresponds to 72% of the theoretical yield.
knowledgehungry March 29th, 2004, 05:03 PM

Dichlorobenzene is very easily available near m e. It is sold as "para" mo thballs. W ould it be possible to m a k e D i a z i d o
trinitrobenzene?

p-DCB would not be a good starting point. You'd probably end up with a product that was reactive and unstable due to the
relative positions of the substituents, assuming you went for trin itro and replaced both chlorines.
Hm m m ... I must check the price of dinitrophenylhydrazine...

Paradichlorobenzene has been nitrated to dinitrodichlorobenzene ,
which is useful as an explosive itself , but more useful for its
ability to form a eutectic m elt with picric acid , sim ilarly as
is true for picric acid eutectics with m o n o n i t r o n a p h t h a l e n e or DDNP .
The potential for tertiary eutectics would seem p o s s i b l e a l s o ,
but I do not know of any having been reported .
Anyway , the dinitrodichlorobenzene from "para " m a y b e a u s e f u l

intermediate for synthesis of other explosives . I have wondered
if it m ay not be a can didate for diazotization using sodium nitrite ,
and perhaps also of interest in its potential rea ctions with m any other
m aterials where the chlorine could be replaced by more energetic
substituents .
U S 1 3 6 6 0 4 8 g i v e s t h e d e t a i l s f o r a s i m p l e m eth o d o f s y n t h e s i s
G B 1 2 6 6 8 5 d e s c r i b e s a s o d i u m nitrate / sulfuric acid nitration
for monochlorobenzene to the dinitro derivative ,
which is likely applicable also to dichlorobenzene ,
and would sim plify the process further .
Nitrations of such chlorobenzenes prod uce extrem e l y d i s a g r e e a b l e

a n d t o x i c f u m e s h a v i n g e f f e c t s s i m ilar to "tear gas" , or "mace" ,
s o g ood ventilation and protection is essential when working with
such m ateria ls .

Thank you all for the inform ation provided.
W ell, given the high price of 1 ,3,5 trichloro benzene, the burden of its nitration (don't feel like watching hot sulfonitric acid for
an entire night...) and its inherent toxicity hazards, I may opt fo r cyanuric triazide, whose preparation from cheap cyanuric
chloride cannot be ea sier... On top of that, its ability to casting sounds interesting for a primary, although more info in needed
as regards as how to avoid formation of big sensitive crystals at cooling.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C hrom a t e d L e a d A z i d e
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View Full Version : Chromated Lead Azide

For those who are interested in technical improvem ents
related to lead azide , here is a little k nown technology
which may be worthwhile as a source of experim entation .
GB806568
US2989389
The patents describe a process by which lead azide crystals

m ay be coated with an adherent film o f lead ch rom a t e ,
by suspension of the crystals in a solution of sodium dichrom a t e .
The result is a free flowing granular form of lea d azide having im p r o v e d

flam e sensitivity comparable with Lead Styphnate sensitized mixtures .
W hile it may not be claim e d b y the patent , I would guess that the
adherent film of lead chrom ate probably enhances the resistance of
the lead azide to deterioration from ca rbon dioxide of the air , which
would improve its long term storage stability .
Early research concerning double salts and m ultiple salts of lead azide
of interest , is described in another patent of interest :
GB180605
The first double salt m e n t i o n e d i s 9 5 % l e a d a z i d e / 5 % b a s i c l e a d a z i d e .

M a n y t i m e s I h a v e s e e n i t r e p orted that a small percentage of the basic
l e a d salt greatly im proves the crystalline form , handling characteristics ,
and storage stability of "lead azide" . This lead s m e to speculate that
in those cases where such im provem ent is reported , what may actually
be described is the form ation of such a double salt containing the 5 %
of the basic lead azid e . The interest which should lead to experiments
concerning this "95 / 5 double salt" is twofold , in that such an improved
form o f l e a d a z i d e w o u l d a l r e a d y h a v e e n h a n c e d s t a b i l i t y a n d h a n d l i n g
characteristics over straight lead azide *AND* there is a good chance
that such a double salt could also be "chromated" by a similar m e t h o d
as the first patent . The potential of such a product is a desirable modification
of lead azide having significant im provement of its handling ,
and storage and ignition properties over pure lead azide .
T h e r e h a v e b e e n n o e x p e r i m ents by m e concerning either one of these

patents . But they are so interesting because of the im plications ,
it se emed worth sharing these references and m y ideas about their
worthiness for experim entation .

Those patents sound very interesting, I'll be sure to have a look later! It's also reminded me that I must find all the patent
references that are dotted aro u n d a n d a d d t h e m to the patents topic in L&L...
Anyway, thanks :).

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP warning story
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Cyclonite April 12th, 2004, 05:29 AM

I thought I should bring an incident I had to everyone's attention. I made some AP and proceeded to mix it with a typical 2 part fast dry epoxy. When I did this is heated
somewhat...I stepped away and waited a couple hours. Everything was fine. I left it to dry for the rest of the day and then I had to go back to Germany and I left it on a
table...very irresponsible. I get a call a couple weeks later and it seemed it somehow got relocated to the ground and my dog stepped on it and it detonated from the pressure
of the weight. It was a small amount of AP and his paw needed immediate medical attention...I feel terrible. Anyways my main point was just to show how sensitive this stuff
can get. Once again beware
Bert April 12th, 2004, 10:42 PM

I feel terrible. Anyways my main point was just to show how sensitive this stuff can get. Once again beware
Had a number of dogs, I know how you feel.
Some of the most important habits to develop are cleanliness and orderliness. If it's not in use, it's properly stored- If you have a problem, only the material currently being
worked on will be involved. "Just leaving stuff out" is begging for trouble.
What in hell did they tell the vet?!
TheHitMan April 13th, 2004, 10:19 AM

I find that very comical, but that may just be my warped sense of humor. It's only a PET! [Read: replaceable!]
Rhadon April 13th, 2004, 10:57 AM

We don't want to start discussing the value of animals and animals' lifes here. You can do that in the Water Cooler if you wish, but not in this thread.
MightyQuinn April 13th, 2004, 11:44 AM

I was thinking more on the lines of "What if your mother/sister/brother et al got ahold of this?" Could you imagine a child thinking this was candy or some such?
Please....for the sake of all hobbyists around the world, make sure you KNOW where your shit is at all times.
This is the kind of story the media would feed on. Media=Weapons of Crass Deduction.
As for the dog (I am a dog owner) Please see the Water Cooler.
NightStalker April 13th, 2004, 03:05 PM

Epoxy bound AP was stepped on by a dog and exploded?
LANDMINE! :)
Try experimenting along those lines.
Cyclonite April 14th, 2004, 04:40 AM

I believe the AP had a reaction with the epoxy from the heat release and it made a little crackle noise. Also sitting in California sun for 2 weeks had more than a little to do with
it. It doesn't mix very well but it does bind it rock hard. If you were to do this id mix the AP with 1 part of the epoxy then mix with the 2nd part. I was very surprised it went
off, im very familiar with how my AP tends to act and this was strange. I like dogs more than quite a few humans......
nuclearattack April 14th, 2004, 10:17 AM

Yes Cyclonite is very strange!
My AP is not that sensitive, i need a good hammer blow to set it off and it is not very sensitive to friction.
However we all know that peroxides are very unpredictable, this section (other explosives i mean!) is full of warnings about AP, there is a good reason because of that
warnings and your experience is a demonstration.
I'm worried when i read about some forum members that make large charges with AP, 200 gr of a primary HE is not the best way to explore the word of the HE! Primaries HE
need to much precautions to make large charges with them...i use primaries only for my detonators.
Bert April 14th, 2004, 01:03 PM

I believe the AP had a reaction with the epoxy from the heat release and it made a little crackle noise.
Organic peroxides are used as catalytic curing agents and accelerators for some resin systems. I'd be VERY careful about trying such an experiment, as heat released in any
substantial quantity might build to a dangerous level.
Desmikes April 15th, 2004, 01:33 AM

Fast-curing epoxy means that bonds are formed rapidly, which can noticeably raise the temperature. There are some epoxies that will start to smoke if you mix more than a
liter. For AP it is best to use something with longer curing time. I use 24hr one for this purpose. The only difference from powdered AP is that binded AP explodes in smallest
quantities. A small half-pea sized chunk of epoxied AP that would normally puff, explodes due to confinement.
Cyclonite, good thing your dog was smart enough not to chew on that white oddly-shaped bone...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Explosive Napalm
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Yellow April 14th, 2004, 11:18 PM

The volatile mixture of potassium chlorate ( KCLO-3 ) and red phosphor ( P ) is probably the simplest high-explosive to make ( see also: "The Sandwich-Mine" ) - althrough its
detonation velocity is not very high.
But it can be used in many ways. One is to make explosive napalm. The two chemicals ( 80 % KCLO-3 and 20% P ) are simply mixed into napalm in a mixture of 80 %
napalm and 20% explosive. In this mixture the KNO-3/P mixture is so diluted that it will not detonate imediately. But as the napalm burns, the explosive will get more and
more concentrated, and at last detonate.
In the mixture mentioned abowe, it will typicaly detonate in 2 - 3 minutes.
The use of this exploding napalm in molotow cocktails is obvious.

Riot police are equiped with fireextinguiser, but they will normally not use them against a firebomb that lands in the middle of the street and does not threaten to set buildings
at fire. They will typicaly just walk around the fire. With the right timing the napalm will detonate, just as they are passing by.
I have testet this explosive napalm many times. It only failed once, where there was short huge orange flame instead of a detonation.
In theory any primary explosive should behawe in the same way.
For experimentaition I would advise to start with very small amounts - and ignite the napalm/explosive mixture from a safe distance.
Picric acid ( normaly a cap sensitive HE ) should be espcially interesting, as it will detonate if exposed to 250 degrees Celsius for 5 seconds - and its detonation rate is much
higher than the KCLO-3/P mixture.
The use of incendiaries to detonate picric acid has been used in many types of bombs.
nuclearattack April 15th, 2004, 05:14 AM

I think you can explode napalm in two other ways:
1. Make a main charge with an HE of your choice and add to it some alluminium or magnesium powder in a 50/50 ratio. The main charge should be placed in a tank filled with
napalm. You will need a detonator to ignite the main charge. This is the same system used to ignite FAE.
2. Put in the molotov a small cap filled with NG. As the molotov crashes in the ground the fire will ignite the NG cap.
I had never tried to explode napalm so i don't know if it can work. You have to make some tests but it can become interesting.
nbk2000 April 15th, 2004, 12:36 PM

*yawn*
Old news, yellow-boy, as I put this very subject in my PDF back in '99.
Setharier July 3rd, 2008, 02:38 PM

Is there actually any everyday or at least from-hardwarestore-stuff that one could use for synthetizing phosphorus? It's obvious that it isn't sold around like gasoline, but still
many applications include it: signs, reflectors, fertilizers, matches, cleaning agents, etc. But how can one gain a nice pile of phosphorus in his flask and turn it into white form
that burns or explodes?
What I originally thought was making gasoline+polystyrene napalm(I've got around 4 gallons of pure mixture and 1-2 liters of shitty one now - choose your styrofoam
carefully, the ones from the beach are in need of very deep cleansing) unextinguishable, or at least to make it burn ~10 times more confidently. In this case, could one add
some oxidizing agent into it? AN? KNO3? Al? Anything that is available in big bags and sold everywhere??
fluoroantimonic July 4th, 2008, 01:23 AM

Yes it can be done, and it has been discussed many many times. The amount of effort required is probably far more than you are wiling to commit.
Al isn't quite an oxidizer, and I doubt it would react much at all under those conditions... unless maybe it was the super fine atomized variety, which is definitely not OTC.
I would imagine fine powdered nitrate salts would be useful, not for detonating, but for enhancing the combustion. There are many other oxidizers out there that should work
too.
There may be some high temperature stable explosives that are soluble in petroleum that could be used to attempt to get a detonation. Any explosive not stable at fairly high
temps would probably simply decompose before it becomes concentrated enough to detonate.
megalomania July 10th, 2008, 09:30 PM

One of the most appropriate methods for DIY phosphorus would be by microwave, which I have talked about before. There are many threads about DIY phosphorus production
on The Forum, you have but to search for them.
Yafmot November 5th, 2008, 07:05 PM

It seems to me that if you wanted to lower the temperature at which a compound with KClO3/O4 would detonate, a small percentage of Ammonium or potassium Dichromate
would probably do the trick. It may even allow the use of NH4ClO4, since it quickens up rocket propellants pretty well. At the very least, it could help accelerate the Oxidative
effect. Seems worth a try.
Setharier November 6th, 2008, 09:28 AM

We some time ago attempted mixing aluminium putty from decades-old shelf-standed al-paint. The oil thinner and al powder were separated into sticky al putty and clear
liquid in the can. The mixture ratio was anyway quite low, only some 5% max. was of Al putty. Anyway even this amount had significant effect on burning. Earlier we used
only common polystyrene-gasoline mixture which burnt stable. The Al-mixture burnt at much higher temperature and the object, some kind of plastic shower system from
construction junk pile we destroyed on both times burnt down notable faster and there were even clearly glowing dots where some al had bunched. If possible, it is bonus if
one can add al powder to the mixture. Probably 10-20% mixture would be the best.
If I have understood correctly the ETN is primary-secondary initiater and is actually possible to detonate even by throwing it into fire. This way one could make a mixture of,
example, 70:15:15 of napalm:KNO3:ETN. The napalm burns at increased intensity by KNO3 nitration and may even splash around and eventually the ETN should crack or in
best case blow around the whole mixture.
Napalm explosive device in it's actual meaning might be possible to do by inserting 250-500g charge of PETN/ETN charge in the very middle of an 2l bottle and filling it with a
mixture of 85:15 napalm:KNO3.
With increased burning capabilities, the Greek Fire is worth of inspecting. I have no much time so I copy-paste the lore from wikipedia:
* petroleum, niter, sulfur;[2]

* naphtha, quicklime, sulfur;[1]
* phosphorus and saltpeter.[8]
The preparation instructions for Greek Fire were top secret, and even nowadays there is no actual knowledge of it's ingredients. Anyway the composition can be concluded on
the properties of the Greek Fire and substances available on that time.
Because the substance lit in contact with water, it had potassium oxide.
The stickiness was achieved with colophon resin, pitch and naphta.
Smoke and poisonous fumes were caused by sulphur and pitch.
The actual burning agent was probably petroleum.
Because the composition burned even submerged there was an oxidizer, probably potassium nitrate. This also made the composition splash around.
For modern Greek Fire, we need:
-Pyrophoric and/or hydrophoric substance

-Substance that is really sticky and likely burns
-Substance that releases very poisonous fumes when burnt
-Substance that is only for burning
-Powerful but controllable oxidizer
So something like napalm, potassium cyanide, white phosphorus and KNO3 and/or AN would do it. If not vacuum sealed before use, it will cause obvious ignition danger in any
environment.
Yafmot November 7th, 2008, 02:20 AM

Uh, suppose we just skip the KCN, especially on a day when the wind is shifting a lot. There are many better ways to disperse toxic agents, and if you have to occupy the area
you've attacked, you'd just about have to use NBC gear, since you wouldn't know for sure how much of that stuff would get deposited on nearby surfaces.
Maybe a toxin with a predictable half-life, so you'd have some idea about the risks. Also, poisoning people is considered a not nice thing to do in modern times. Perhaps a
delivery system that was a little more selective, a little less ham-fisted.
Freshly formed Zinc Oxide can cause Metal Fume Fever, which is very debilitating and can even kill. However, after it's had a chance to disperse and cool off a little, it's much
less pernicious. Something like this would allow you to incapacitate large numbers of bad guys without the adverse area denial associated with a persistant agent. Maybe load
the incendiary compound with Zinc Peroxide and straight Zinc. When they combined, they would form ZnO, and it would be hot & dense. While they're gagging, choking and
bringing up chunks of lung & trachea, and shivering like hell from their clogged kidneys, you could just sit & wait for the ZnO to cool and disperse before going in to either
capture them of finish them off. They wouldn't be in good enough shape to put up much of a fight.
So, whaddaya' think?
Setharier November 7th, 2008, 02:46 PM

Most likely Zinc Oxide is better in every way. The very little I know about toxins is just about the clich nerve gases from every B-movie, KCN and HF maybe. The whole idea
using "poison-napalm" came from Greek Fire and definitely is a minor thing when speaking about explosive incendiary device :).

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Method of storing AP indefinitely?
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Spleenman April 17th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Couldn't one use those kitchen vacuum sealer devices (The ones meant for vacuum-packing meats and other such perishables to keep air from them) to store AP? Since it's
sealed off from outside air, there w ould be no evaporation of the AP, and plastic bags typically don't involve grinding friction when opening, so couldn't one store AP relatively
safely like this? Of course, if one w ere to bend or crush the package, the individual crystals would rub together and... :( . Perhaps one could fabricate his detonators (Or
whatever the AP is to be used for) in advance, then vacuum-seal the completed dets. Just a thought.
Fallout85 April 18th, 2004, 02:57 AM

I always thought things volatilized faster at lower pressures...let alone near vacuum! In fact I remember an "acetone volcano" demo that involved acetone in a vacuum quickly
vaporizing and forming a gaseous jet! Now I don't think that would happen with a solid but it would still be very bad. Am I w rong? :confused:
TheBear April 18th, 2004, 09:41 AM

Fallout85, You are entirely correct. Low ering the pressure will increase rate of evaporation.
Spleenman April 18th, 2004, 10:50 AM

Damn, didn't think about that. Just saw a commercial for one of those kitchen vacuum seal gadgets and though "No air= nothing for AP to evaporate into". Meh, brain fart on
my part.
Fallout85 April 18th, 2004, 11:56 AM

Now this does get the wheels rolling though...what if you pressurized the container? I'm sure even relatively thin steel or aluminium could with stand the pressures generated by
a simple w orkshop compressor. Would ~300 psi have any significant effect on its rate of evaporation? And w hy stop with ordinary air? Pressurized nitrous, hydrogen, oxygen,
(insert favorite) might make the explosions significantly more powerful...and prettier. ;) Pressurizing with butane, propane, or acetylene and the like are not advised though.
Butane and propane would most likely act as a solvent and dissolve the ap. Acetylene doesn't like being under pressure with out a suitable solvent. I w ould also check to see if
the gas w ould react with ap especially at elevated press.
tmp April 18th, 2004, 01:02 PM

What about storing it w et and cold ? I've noticed that CFR 49 prohibits many
materials, such as RDX and HMX, from being transported dry. Water seems to
to desensitize many explosives. Just a thought.
Hang-Man April 18th, 2004, 04:54 PM

Am I the only one who does not want to store AP? I mean, having a sensitive primary around seems to create more problems that it solves.

Would the AP be able to volatize that quickly? Those sealers work fast. Once there is no air, there would be no place left in the package for the AP to re-crystallize. This is
assuming that there w ill be no outgassing of the AP Forming pockets of gaseous material and inflating the sealed package like a balloon?
I think this is a great question really. I have visions of a sheet of AP meatballs all pouched up tight and cut in to individual meatballs. To use, simply prick the plastic with a knife, insert
chosen favorite igniter and blammo.
Here comes the but part. Fallout85, are you s aying that the will be some type of reaction taking place as soon as the vacuum is applied? There w ill be little time during the vacuum
process for much to happen, no? I can understand this happening if you w ere trying to apply a vacuum, to say, a Mason jar half filled with AP (do NOT do this!) and having room left in
the container for evaporated AP to collect, but in a sealed bag w ith NO voids? Unless (see above) regarding gaseous output
Worst thing that strikes me about it is the pucker factor while the vacuum is applied and the AP is compressed to some extent.. Once sealed, I would feel better about handling th e m but
will NEVER feel totally safe around AP, considering what I NOW know about AP (see my results post in the AP thread (coming soon))
This is where my relative ignorance of chemistry becomes a detriment to me. Somebody set me strait, please.
_____________________________________________
Am I the only one who does not want to store AP? I mean, having a sensitive primary around seems to create more problems that it solves.
I agree Hang Man......how ever, it is nice to theorize about methods to give me every ounce of safety edge for storage of even the 'fresh' stuff I dream of making. :D
mikeg April 18th, 2004, 09:26 PM

Will cold storage w ork? I think one of the problems w ith AP is that it goes from a solid to a gas over time(it sublimes). Storing it cold might slow that process down. You may
want to experiment with a small amount in case cold causes detonation.
Fallout85 April 18th, 2004, 10:37 PM

See the thing, is I think it would actually turn in to an ap balloon as you said. Anything volatile WILL expand in a state of near vacuum...as to say how fast or how much this
would happen with a volitile solid like ap, your guess is as good as mine and I'm not going to be the first try it! :p
Hang-man is probably right though...better to just not store it all. It's really not that hard to w hip-up on short notice anyway. Still some interesting ideas though.
Desmikes April 18th, 2004, 11:35 PM

Vacuum w ill cause the equilibrium to shift towards gas production. Another problem is that trying to get the air out of fine dry powder often causes the powder to flow; you risk
sucking AP crystals into your vacuum machine. The safest method to store AP would be to sink it in a container w ith distilled water via drop-wise addition of acetone, and cover
it up with clear sticky plastic wrap and a rubberband.

I dont know w ho invented the "extremely volatile AP" ! I even read it looses half its weight in 10 days at room temperature, but this is complete BS :mad: (unless he was
speaking of the dimeric form, but even that is more stable I bet).
I once stored DRY AP in a marmalade jar for a year, and it w as still perfectly OK. The crystals seemed slightly larger, but there w as hardly any re-sublimated stuff at the lid and
the upper walls. BTW it cannot get into the screw threats, as they are outside, and the rubberised lid is sealing the jar on the rim. No way for crystals to get between something
there. Cleaning the lid every month is advisable though. ;)
Now I found a much safer method: The AP is mixed with water and the slurry is stored under water in a jar in the fridge. Every 2 month I check the ph and add a drop of bicarb
solution if needed. It seems the crystals do NOT sublimate under water, they do NOT get bigger w ith time. The smell is noticeable above the surface though, and some small
crystals seem to form on the upper w alls. I simply shake the glass to soak them wet before opening.
Though they are really wet, complete drying takes one hour only! Tale out a spoon full, put it on a filter, wrap it up with TP and step on it. Repeat w ith a new filter. Within a
minute it is so dry it flashes with a WHOOOMP. It contains only a few percent w ater and could now be pressed into caps if they are left to dry before crimping fuse in. Or one
hour on the oven makes the stuff bone dry if the caps are to be sealed ASAP.
Yes I said on the oven! It is spread in a very thin layer on a paper, this is placed on the biggest plate with a surface thermo coupler beneath. The oven is switched to full power
for 8 seconds and left for 10 minutes. A few more times I come back to switch it on again for 4 seconds. This keeps the plate between 30 and 35C, which is harmless as any
shed in Arizona will be hotter. The full power is necessary because lower settings dont power all heating elements, possibly leaving you with one hot spot in the centre of the
oven plate.
You could replace the oven with a big enough dessicator, or w ait overnight at room temp, but I prefer to have AP around for one hour max before it is processed 'cause my
careless GF puts her cigarettes everyw here ... :D
"...wrap it up with TP and step on it. Repeat w ith a new filter. Within a minute it is so dry..."
Just don't land on my head w hen you're done. ;)

When you step on it it is still quite wet, THEN the water is soaked out and into the paper and you take the foot away. You dont jump up + down on it.
Anyway the pressure per area is much smaller then w hen pressing caps, and there is only soft tissue around, no metal cap + hardw ood dowel.
If I only need 1/2g for a cap, but FAST, I even press it in a big vice after using my body weight (wearing protection)! ;)

Whether or not it is safe w ith AP, it doesn't exactly promote good practice for general handling of explosives!
Who here honestly needs to store AP for months or years?
It takes very little effort, and not much time to make - especially if you use concentrated H2O2. I'd make up 10-20gm every know and again w hen I needed caps, and kept the
surplus in a shallow open dish in a cool, dark place where it won't be disturbed.
Yes, you lost some to volitisation, but not all that much.
AP doesn't need to crystalise in screw threads. If it coats the inside of the container, a sheet of crystal could form across the joint between the lid and the jar. Which you w ill
shear when you tw ist the lid off. An accidental explosion might not be very likely, but you have to be lucky every time to keep your hands, you only have to be unlucky once.
All this effort of vacuum packaging seems a lot of effort for lowly AP. Perhaps it w ould be better invested in other areas?
Also, I wouldn't make a cap w ith damp AP. I'd be worried about them not drying out fully, leaving a damp core, leading to a dud. Do you dry the loaded caps on the oven? How
do you makes sure hot spots don't develop inside? A loose, thinly spread powder is easy to manage.
Do you remove the AP/caps from the oven before giving it another 4 second blast of heat?
You mentioned crimping fuses into caps, w hat is the design of your caps like, and is this process safe?

Who here honestly needs to store AP for months or years?
It is not so much about yearS, but several people here seem to believe it gets incredibly dangerous after 1 week. This is BS, even if the crystals get slightly bigger (maybe more
so in hot climate, but who has no fridge?), you can dissolve them in acetone , dump in w ater and viola they are much smaller again. Plus, you can re-neutralise if needed. :)
every know and again when I needed caps
I need them every second weekend. Even if AP is easy, I dont want to spend 2-3 hours 25 times a year when the time could be used better (e.g. improving my EBW B-Box :D
).
Do you dry the loaded caps on the oven?
Surely not, they all have a 2g booster of MHN or PETN. They belong in a dessicator, this should dry them up through the whole mass. Anyway, it w as just an idea, I also press
them dry (if only to save time).
Do you remove the AP from the oven before giving it another 4 second blast of heat?
No, the thermal lag is so great the surface reaches its maximum temperature about half a minute after the 4-second blast. I am currently designing a kind of hot plate (without
stirrer), thermostat controlled. It will have a 1x1x1/4 aluminium plate with the sensor inside the plate, heating elements below and electronic pow er control to within +/- 1C.
We build similar controls in the company, I will just have to modify one and build the plate.
You mentioned crimping fuses into caps,
I was referring to others, I have no visco and nearly always use electric caps. My standard cap is made from a nickel plated brass tube, closed at the bottom and made from
one part. They are 9mm inner diameter, 45mm long. 1g MHN is pressed in at 20000 PSI using a vice, giving a density of 1.6. Another g is pressed on top at 1500 PSI to
density 1.3, then comes g MHN/AP mix hand pressed, and a little AP surrounding the Xmas bulb igniter (3x4mm micro-bulbs). Some tissue is put on top around the cable to
keep the AP inside and fix the cable, leaving space for some epoxy seal. They are absolutely air/water tight and store at least 2-3 month.
IF I DO use fused caps, I drill a small hole in the cap bottom, glue china (cracker) fuse in and load in reverse order. The disadvantage is you cannot press the booster charge as
hard because AP is below it, and the cap might break if not suspended from all sides. :(
Which you will shear when you twist the lid off
The same is true for the much praised film canister. That is why I shake the glass before, wetting the crystals at the joint.
The must important reason to store AP is safety! Yes I said safety, because I strongly believe that a glass of dripping wet AP is no threat at all, you can probably put a cigarette
out in it.
The preparation of AP is safe until the drying stage. If you dont dry it but put it in lots of water after neutralising, I cannot see a danger at all. Now instead if drying a months
supply, you make 12 times as much, but keep it w et all year. You only take out the immediate need, a few gram max.
You save the time to prepare lots of batches, you know it is always from the same batch, and most important you never have more than a few gram around dry, and that
only for 1-2 hours!
kingspaz April 21st, 2004, 10:42 AM

boomer, heat drying AP, whether for a few seconds or not is not an ideal way. the best w ay is to use a fan assisted oven. then turn it to its low est setting. this *should* be
room temperature but because the oven is on the fan still blows and dries the AP like clothes on a line. this will take longer but is a much safer w ay to dry the AP.
in light of recent posts i think you should also remember not to get over confident and not forget to respect AP.
Evan007 April 21st, 2004, 12:38 PM

Why you w ould need to store AP indefinately is beyond me, but I suppose if you had to store it, I just sticking it in water and putting it in the fridge would be your best bet.
I thought for a moment Freezing the AP in Water might be the go, but then the AP would settle to the bottom during freezing, and then there w ould be a plain old block of DRY
AP at the bottom of a container. The w ater w ould just be a solid, confining and compressing on top of our AP.
If your pulling a large block of ice out of the freezer, w ould you like high explosive on the bottom of it, vulnerable to every bump on the table, drop on the floor.......
Hey, it probably wouldnt detonate even if you dropped that block on concrete, but its not something I would bet body parts on.
If you are storing AP Indefinately, Think about what you are doing.
If you are still storing AP indefinately, you haven't thought long enough.
vulture April 21st, 2004, 12:44 PM

People who are really into a way for storing AP for long periods of time are usually the people that use AP as the base charge.
Murphy's law w ill get them eventually, don't worry.
tom haggen April 21st, 2004, 01:14 PM

I don't even like keeping my AP putty for longer than 2 weeks.
FrankRizzo April 21st, 2004, 09:40 PM

I shudder w hen I realize the cavalier attitude that many members of this forum posses. DO NOT advocate drying AP in an oven. If you're that hurried and careless about your
experimentation, I suggest you find another hobby. Conventional oven thermostats are not sensitive enough to maintain an even temperature throughout the unit. A localized
hot spot could cause the detonation of the surrounding w et material. Remember too, that the heating coils that are above and below are MUCH warmer that the surrounding air.
If just a tiny bit were to fall or blow onto them, hell would surely ensue. You have all the WRONG conditions....it's only a matter of time.
No, the thermal lag is so great the surface reaches its maximum temperature about half a minute after the 4-second blast. I am currently designing a kind of hot plate (without stirrer),
thermostat controlled. It will have a 1x1 x1/4 aluminium plate w ith the sens or inside the plate, heating elements below and electronic pow er c ontrol to within +/- 1C. We build sim ilar
controls in the company, I will just have to modify one and build the plate.
Great idea......:(
Take a look at this thread (AP under a DESK LAMP detonates unexpectedly):
http://ww w.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=314
If you want to dry it out, just use an empty ice cream pail and some Damp-Rid dessicant.
AP is really not the dragon that some people make it out to be. You do however, have to RESPECT it.
Boomer April 22nd, 2004, 08:31 AM

kingspaz, vulture, all:
I DO respect AP, and never even considered it as a base charge. In fact I treat it as if it would explode every moment if dry! You only cannot do so once it is in the cap, and this
is in the charge ....
The biggest amount I ever handle (unless dripping wet) is ONE spoon full, and that is kept aw ay from my hands by gripping the paper at the edges and taking a spatula per
cap. It is left on the paper until used up, or any surplus is put back under water.
I dont even fill the caps completely w ith AP, they are the compound type with only g AP as a primary. The cap press is remote of course.
And I w ould not call 30-35 degree C HEAT drying. This is lower than the ambient in some countries. Plus, the amount I have on the oven is so small and so thinly spread that I
would not mind much if it detonated, as I wear ear protection in addition to goggles. And in such a thin layer I guess it w ould only flash anyway, but you never know.
P.S. I had already seen the photos of the desk, that was 20 times the amount I would handle dry!
This is exactly why I make 200g in one batch, and keep it under lots of water at all times (ok, under dilute acid and bicarb during manufacture). I bet drying 50 g every 2
month is more danger than drying 2-3 g every few days. BTW the oven is just to cut the time down I have it around dry to under one hour. If you press it out w ell it also dries
at room temperature over night.
Guerilla April 22nd, 2004, 12:43 PM

I remember reading how somebody once had his oven (and kitchen) devastated after a spark from the thermostat ignited an ap batch that was drying in it. I wouldn't dry any
primary in oven just for time's sake, but hey you know the risks..
chris S February 28th, 2007, 12:19 PM

I have to agree with Boomer: I also don't know w here all this 'evaporation/deterioration/not able to store AP' story came from.
I also had never any problems at all, even with AP over a year old. It detonates nicely and initiates even more nicely the main charge. Certainly when it's in a closed detonator.
But I had also some dry AP stored in a closed plastic bag, and when used and pressed into a detonator, it functioned perfectly. And that batch was also over a year old I think.
I still have some dets manufactured in 1997, I'll bet they will work just fine, but I'm not longer 'practisicing' (but I'm thinking to picking it up again. I need a new hobby...)
Anyway, must say that I always use HCl, and wash endlessly and dry long. The big advantance of HCl obviously being that it evaporates and leaves no acidic residue.
chembio April 21st, 2007, 04:12 AM

A possible method of storing AP for transportation:
Store the AP in small containers (pill boxes etc.) and seal the containers.
Fill the bottom of a slightly larger container w ith a viscous fluid (slow-hardening glue, cooking oil, maybe KY jelly?)
Carefully place the AP-filled container in the viscous fluid.
Close the larger container.
Please note that the AP-filled container w ould have to be suspended (not touching the larger container's base) and yet still have its bottom part immersed in the viscous fluid.
Will post up pics soon. I've made the stuff mentioned above but not the AP :D
Boomer May 4th, 2007, 11:08 AM

Just a little update now this thread is bumped:
First of all the crystals DO grow even under water, but not that fast. In fact I noticed after 2 years. That original batch w as 4 years old and still fine this new year.
I moved to storing in solution though: Crash in w ater, filter, press dry, oven-dry (yes half a gram thinly spread on paper), assemble, done. One hour max. Never handle over a
gram, never touch it directly, and never hold the cap when pressing.
Another important point is small amounts, I used to use half a gram, but 100-200mg is more than enough for a cap with 1g of solid nitric ester base charge. Why handle more at
a time?
Finally, after a house search by police investigators (after a fire in the living romm - of all rooms!), I had to clean my flat. They must have seen the dozends of jam jars with
powders, and dozends of acid/solvent/... bottles, but did not care and left after telling me to "smoke more carefull".
Later I feared they only w ent to get a search warant to be able to use the evidence, so got rid of everything but OTC chems. Small HE samples and some dual-use precursors
are stored elsewhere.
Sad but this is my long vacation now - loosing fingers did not stop me but the pigs did. Maybe I'm back some day.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Fun snaps/ throwdowns
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View Full Version : Fun snaps/ throwdowns
Jacks Complete May 22nd, 2004, 02:45 PM

Hi all.
I searched, but found nothing on "Fun snaps" or "throwdowns". These are little tissue paper wrapped bits of friction and heat sensitive explosive, which you can leave on the
floor, and they go "snap" loudly when trodden on. They can also be thrown down, hence I searched for that too.
It is trivial to take a load of them out of the wrapper and increase the "charge". At school I once folded some steel pop can into a cunningly spring-loaded triangular design,
such that a slight touch caused it to pop down, and filled it with about a dozen snap fillings. A fool played with it, getting a face full of the gritty bits after they went bang.
:cool:
I have about half a bag of them, they come in a plastic bag full of sawdust, in a little box. There is no info about what they are made from, so I was wondering if anyone had
any ideas.
I can post a picture if wanted, but they just look like little (5 to 10mm) bits of twisted up tissue paper full of a clear crystal. Looks black after exploding.
Dave Angel May 22nd, 2004, 04:17 PM

I believe I've read somewhere before that it's a silver compound, possibly silver fulminate but don't hold me to that. I think there's a lot of grit in them to provide the friction
necessary to ensure it goes off, and the explosive compound can be washed out of them and used as a primary.
nbk2000 May 22nd, 2004, 06:35 PM

This has been discussed before.
It's silver fulminate, and there's only about a grain or so in each snap (7000 grains/pound), but it can be washed off using a solvent and concentrated down to recover the
fulminate.
WARNING!
Silver fulminate is EXTREMELY SENSITIVE! It's on par with, if not more so than, ammonium iodide, which will explode by the touch of a feather.
If you extract a large amount of it, expect it to spontaneously explode upon drying from the weight of the crystals pressing upon each other.
Jacks Complete May 22nd, 2004, 10:48 PM

This has been discussed before.
It's silver fulminate, and there's only about a grain or so in each snap (7000 grains/pound), but it can be washed off using a solvent and concentrated down to recover the
fulminate.
Thanks, NBK, once you told me it was silver fulminate, I found this thread http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=3210 which asked the same question, but with
different names.
There are no extraction details, & I didn't see much about silver fulminate when searching, though. Any solvent you would recommend? Or is it just not worth it?
K9 May 22nd, 2004, 11:07 PM

NBK I think you mean nitrogen tri-iodide there. As far as the snap pops (that's the brand of ones I have), I've seen a few sites from places that make them or sell them listing
the explosive used as silver fulminate so I'm fairly confident to say that's what it is. As far as extracting it, well I know someone who had an accident doing that, but then again
he wasn't using the best methods. I don't know all the details, but he is ok. In my opinion it would probably be easier just to make it, but I don't really see a point in it.
Dave Angel May 22nd, 2004, 11:38 PM

Just having a quick look at mega's chem. lab site, silver fulminate is precipitated from ethanol by water when it is made so a wash with ethanol is probably in order to separate
it from the grit.
After doing a bit more reading, personally I'd say it isn't really worth it except as a novelty demonstration-type explosive like nitrogen tri-iodide. So much for the possibility of
using it as a primary!
GreenCoat May 24th, 2004, 12:56 AM

In Tenney L. Davis' book 'The Chemistry and Powder of Explosives', they use the same method as for mercury fulminate to make silver fulminate ie. dissolve the metal in nitric
acid, add 90% ethanol, etc. Like the mercury salt, silver fulminate will dissolve with decomposition in concentrated acids. You can dissolve it in 10-30% ammonia solution and
reprecipitate with acetic acid, but if you want to make it in a reasonable quantity (? couple of grams), you're far better off using the mercury fulminate method. It is way too
sensitive to use other than as a novelty item. I would never load it into an aluminum or even plastic tube.

It is easy to extract with water, though it is no real extraction, but a mechanical separation. You open up a few packs (200-300) into a glass of water. Then you swirl it really
fast, and decant the water off after. Repeat twice with the same water. Filter it out, but store it wet and dark.
(I posted this method in the nitro-starch thread, a search for snaps should have shown it: http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=226&highlight=snaps+fulminate.)
BTW the snaps contain MUCH less than a grain, I estimate 1/15th to 1/20th grain (3mg). Several packs give you less than one gram of product, instead of 200 grains = 12
grams.
But even this is worth it, for it is so much better an initiator than MF (up to 14 times dependant on the base charge). I made super reliable MHN caps with 1/25th gram of a 1:1
mix of MHN + SF around the bridge wire. This means 30 caps from 4 packs of snaps, or 7 snaps per cap. Not bad! :D
Only drawback is they store only two month, maybe the slightly unstable MHN decomposed the SF (the base charge still worked). What do you think, would a stabilizer like
diphenylamine improve this?

Has anyone every thought to make a NC putty & silver fulminate mixture to make this primary more manageable and less likely to detonate from its own weight?
Bert February 10th, 2005, 08:24 AM

Has anyone every thought to make a NC putty & silver fulminate mixture to make this primary more manageable and less likely to detonate from its own weight?
Have you ever tried to HANDLE dry Silver fulminate?! The manipulation nescessary to work up a putty in any useable quantity would scare the shit out of me. There's a very
good reason this material was never used for detonators commercialy. Boomer's method is an interesting "field expedient", but I'd consider use of SF a definite last resort.
If you had silver fulminate in solution with acetone, and then tried to form the putty would that work?
Bert February 10th, 2005, 01:39 PM

If you had silver fulminate in solution with acetone
Silver fulminate isn't soluble in acetone. It should be soluble in strong ammonia, but NC isn't-

I guess silver fulminate is an animal that can't be tamed.

What if you had a solution of Et20 and NH3, would silver fulminate dissolve in this solution? If so, you should have no problem dissolving the nitrocellulose since its non polar
like Et20. If this is possible I would still worry about spontaneous detonation like what happened when one of the members made a composition of gun cotton and HTMD.
Corona February 21st, 2005, 01:54 AM

There is a mention of "impact smoke bombs" on page 4 of the "magician's arsenal: proffesional tricks of the trade" by Lee Scott. Its on the FTP somewhere.

Thats not quite the answer I was looking for but what the hell. Anyways, I've decided to try experimenting with silver acetylide instead. Maybe save a finger or two ;).


skunks December 14th, 2007, 09:59 PM

Dear Sirs. I have made some of these bang snaps. I hope they are kind of like the things your explaining. I learned how to make them from the guy that owns this video,so all
credits to him. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tJX0DsD4MeQ). The video is very cool so make sure you check it out. I use chlorate flash. 50 KClO3, 40 Al and 10 S. The snaps
are just a little square of wax paper with a few pebbles inside and the comp poured over. The square was then simply twisted shut. I cannot emphasize enough how sensitive
and dangerous it is. Only make 1 gram batches at a time. I suggest never doing larger than .2 gram snaps. Also never store the flash. This is my first post here. I hope my post
is ok. Thanks A lot
Yafmot December 30th, 2007, 07:54 PM

I was always under the impression that "snaps" used Armstrong's Mixture (KClO3, Sulfur, Red Phosphorus and Calcium Carbonate). I don't mess with Armstrong's very much.
Come to think of it, I don't spend much time with Fulminates, either.
There's a reason why the snaps, and for that matter a lot of other pyro stuff, is manufactured by 35 Cent a day, semi-skilled or, in some cases, prison labor. Life is cheap in
Asia, and nowhere more so than when making a buck is involved.
The mix you're using is a step in the right direction, safety-wise, but there are also some variations you may want to try, like using KClO4 instead of -03. Also, if toxicity isn't
an issue, Sb2S3 works pretty well with Perchlorate, and the more sulfur you use (up to a point), the less of the toxic stuff you'll need.
Ultimately, impact-sensitive comps are lots of fun, but when youre mixing a batch, fun should be the last thing on your mind. I used to purloin railway torpedos from any
caboose I happened to spy, but a locomotive driver I know said they all were recalled after 9-11. The stuff we did with those should have either landed us in prison, or spread
us all over the County.
In the words of the late, great Gus Limbach, "Don't do nothin' stupid."
Bert December 31st, 2007, 12:23 AM

The small snaps still available in the US use Silver fulminate. The torpedoes of old used anything the manufacturer dared or cared to use- Armstrong's mix, red explosive
(chlorate and Arsenic sulfide) , chlorate and antimony sulfide...
megalomania December 31st, 2007, 10:02 PM

I do believe Bert is correct, I remember reading all modern bang snaps exclusively use silver fulminate. If you have ever examined one you will observe they consist entirely of
white cubic crystals, similar to salt, packed in saw dust or paper bits.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > U n b e l i a v a b l e A P m isfire
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View Full Version : Unbeliavable AP misfire
Efraim_barkbit May 23rd, 2004, 05:09 PM

T o d a y I w i t n e s s e d s o m ething that I never thought I would experience. I had a failure when trying to set off dry AP with a
detonator.
you may or may not find this interesting, I for one did.
It starded ye dterday, when I went down to a ne arby creek to set off a couple of old cartridges filled with AP. The fuse on the
last one died, so I picked it up from the bottom , and left it over night.
So, today, I filled a plastic tube from a bottle rocket with AP, fused it and taped it to the cartridge.
Then I got the surprise of my life, only the det exploded. The cartridge laid about a m eter from the site, with a big dent going
down its side.
I a s s u m ed it m i g h t h a v e b e e n m oist from its bath, so I took off the tape sealing the opening, and extracted the AP. No
m oisture at all, and it burned nicely leaving no residue.
So I decided to do another, sim ilar test, so I filled another cartridge with and another bottle rocket tube with AP, and set it off
between two bricks.
No detonation of the cartridge, even though the bricks it was placed between had cracked. It had o nly got a big dent along its
side.
Fucking strange I say
W orth noticing, is that I have used the s a m e detonators from bottle rock et tubes to detonate 10%APAN num erous tim es
without failures when the APAN has been inside a piece of plastic pipe, and the det taped to the outside.
I scanned the two cartridges, and a bottle rocket tube so that yo u c a n s e e w h a t I m e a n .
FinnBell May 23rd, 2004, 09:10 PM

Thats very weird, first of all Ive never heard of anyone using a d etonator for a prim ary explosive why didnt you just put another
fuse in it? Personally I wouldnt pick up a dud period unless I KNEW for a fact that it was not going to go off, and even then i
wouldnt do it with my hands. Second, when you said 10% APAN mixture, is that 10% AP or 10% Am m o n i u m Nitrate because
even a 50/50 mixture is fuse sensitive . Meanin g you wouldnt need a detonator for that either.

Of course it is 10% AP,(you alm ost m a d e m e laugh there :D )and Im pretty sure that a minute underwater will kill m o s t f u s e s
But you can never know "for a fact"... that, com bined with stupidity is probably the largest reason to APs m any kills.
I used a det because then I wouldnt have to fuck around with the cartridge, and because I wasnt sure that the seal has kept
the water out of it.
Moist AP is m ost likely not going to detonate from a f u s e .
Jacks Complete May 24th, 2004, 07:14 PM

Interesting.
I w o u l d g u e s s t h a t t h e b r a s s a b s o r b e d e n o u g h o f t h e i m pact, slowing it down so much that the powder could move out the way,
rather than being shocked enough to explode.
How full were t h e c a s e s ?

the cases was filled to the top, lightly "tapped" to compact it, this was done repeatedly until it wouldnt com p a c t a n y m o r e f r o m
light "tapping" on the cartridge.
then a piece of cloth was inserted in to get a tight seal in the "neck", before it was taped up.
I will m ake this test once again, but with pressed AP, and report the resu lt.
utax May 29th, 2004, 11:49 AM

I guess you should try to detonate it with fuse or in different container.
Jacks Complete May 29th, 2004, 07:03 PM

It's possible that the powder had tim e to move out the way, pushing the fabric up the neck, and so it didn't get crushed
enough to go off.
Let us know how you get on.
Efraim_barkbit May 31st, 20 04, 01:4 2 PM

I tried it out once more, but this time with pack ed AP, in both the cartridge and the detonator, and this tim e, it deto n a t e d
violently as expected, so I believe you are right jack.
But still, one of the m ost sensitive primaries known, fails to sym pathetically detonate from a d e t o n a t i o n l e s s t h e n 2 m m away,
in two attem pts out of three...
xxxplosive August 31st, 2004, 02:32 PM

does Flash powder have enough "kick" to det AP
if so in what quantity and how, I have been playing with flash as a det with little success.
thanx
EDIT: "thank s" like this? Sory to ofend you but I was not aware that I was doing somthing that required correction ;)
('Thanks' it has a 'ks' at the end and not 'x'. Use a dictionary if you're having trouble. This isn't so me shitty chatroom. Also,
you've had little success since flash is an LE. But we will be steering well clear of the 'does flash detonate?' topic won't we ;) -
king s p a z )
K9 August 31st, 2004, 08:13 PM

I think he was asking if flash can detonate AP, but I don't understand the question then. If that is the question, well then you
have a lot to learn. AP is quite sensitive - including flam e, friction etc. If for som e reason AP doesn't go, then it is q uite
strange.
xxxplosive S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2004, 04:36 AM

m y question, More to the point, is I would like to know if AP can be detonated sym potheticaly by flash,
As in Flash in one container, AP in another com pleatly sealed container, Flash goes off, then AP goes off by sym patheic
detonation.
I hope this n ew post will clairify my question.
---Thanks---
K9 S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2004, 12:03 PM

W ell that rea lly all depends on the exact circum stances - type of containers, type of flash etc. But for exam ple if it would be a
KClO4/Al flash in a film canister and another film canister of AP taped ne xt to it - that would alm ost definitely go off (not
counting for strange circum sta nces).
ProdigyChild S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2004, 08:46 AM

I a l s o h a d a n A P m isfire under different circum s t a n c e s :
A 3 m m straw filled with AP and a petrol flam e o n o n e e n d m a n a g e d t o e x p l o d e h a l f o f t h e s t r a w a n d l e a v e t h e o t h e r h a l f
intact!!
This is well against intuition... (mine at least).
I've got a ph oto of th is, however, I have too few posts so far to attach.
Boomer S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2004, 03:27 AM

I hope with "sym pathetic detonation" you don't im ply th at flash actually d****** ? Discussing this is a no-no here. Flash is a
low explosive, though a fast a nd powerful one. :rolleyes:
T h e r e h a v e b e e n t e s t s ( b y o t h e r s a n d m y s e l f ) t o a v o i d p r i m aries by using flash o r arm strongs in a cap together with a

sensitive secondary like ETN o r MHN. These do work but they m ust be m a d e q u i t e b i g , a n d a r e n o t t o o r e l i a b l e .
The point rather is that AP is so sensitive it detonates from a fla me/spark/fuse as soon as it is only slightly confined (straw/
paper/alu foil). You d on't have to tape an M80 to it, just stick the fuse directly into the AP. But make sure the sparks cannot
hit the charge as soon as the fuse starts burning - people have had a bad surprise this way :p
Efraim_barkbit S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2004, 02:38 PM

prodigychild, your AP wasnt com pletely dry, wa s it?
K9 S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2004, 04:31 PM

I've had wet AP fireball. There was chlorate/sugar on top and that went off - and then there was a fireball from the AP
underneath.
ProdigyChild S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2004, 05:31 PM

I believe it was dry because one should notice difficultie s when filling a 3m m straw otherwise!? Not 100% sure thoug h.
I had another near-failure in the m eantime, with 6m m straw. It exploded, but no full strength detonation. Filling a straw only
partially and using slow burnig powder for the final 3-4cm s e e m s to be not a reliable detonator (with delay).
Design flaw?
kingspaz S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2004, 07:02 AM

I t h i n k s o m e experim entation is in order to find AP's critical diamter, below which it cannot support its own detonation. After
h a v i n g a l o o k a t f e d e roff there is no specific data given in relation to this but there ae results to show it detonates in a 6.3m m
colum n. That could be used as a start point and only try straws on a width less than this.
Microtek S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2004, 09:12 AM

Back in the days when I was u s i n g p e r o x i d e s , I m a d e a n e x p l o s i v e m atch by drilling a 1 m m a x i a l h o l e t h r o u g h t h e m a t c h a n d
filling m ost of it with pressed AP. The last 8-10 mm ( to wards the head o f the ma tch ) was packed with KMnO4 and then sealed
with wax.
T h e s e m a t c h es were indistinguishable from ord inary ones, and when lit a nd quickly blown out the KMnO4 would act as a fuse
by o xidizing the frayed wood. This couldn't be detected from casual obse rvation, and about 10 seconds later the AP would
d e t o n a t e , s h r e d d i n g t h e m atch.
T h e e x p l o s i o n was strong enough to fracture a 3 m m p l a t e o f P M M A w h e n t h e m a tch was taped against it.
The point with this story is tha t the critical diam eter of p ressed AP confined in thin pine wood is less than 1 mm .
FrKoNaLeaSh S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2004, 07:05 PM

There deffinitely must be a critical diameter of AP. On a few occaisions I had filled a pen with AP. Diam eter was 3m m. I would
assume the pen is LDPE plastic. It was stuck in the ground and fused from end upwards. After insp ection of the rem a i n i n g c a s e
there was still a white powder scattered a bit yet all over it assum ing to be AP. This white powder burned exactly the same as
AP yet was not set off in the b last. So there m u s t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g w r o n g .

T h a n k G o d , I ' m not the only one to fail with 3m m diameter (on rare occasions!). 3m m or 1m m , b o t h s e e m to be close to the
critical diam eter. Success heavily depends on the circum stances like rupture pressure for the casing, am bient tem perature,
open end diameter.
Also I had never a failure, when using 3mm straws as detcord, i.e. if I detonated it by a reliable device. Even taping one straw
to another works well (doubling length). No stop in between.
I believe, the critical part is DDT and if the casing break s before it.
Cyclonite S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2004, 08:54 AM

Iv had balls of AP putty that were a little sm aller than the size of a .177 BB. W hen touched with a cigarette....Detonation. It
would blow off the cherry and m u s h r o o m out the end. I prefer using putty for a cap due to the fact a casing isn't required
therefore there is no need to worry about a casing being to thick or strong for that amount of HE. Also you get a nice density
without the h azards o f pressin g the cap.
trinitride3 September 2 2nd, 2004, 05:48 PM

Hello, can anyone tell m e if its safe to use black powder as a primer in a AP cap. Im concerned that the two substances m a y
react with each other. I did an exstensive search of the forum but couldnt find any info on this topic.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Explosive Falsities
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CommonScientist August 24th, 2004, 01:40 AM

What falsities have you heard from non-educated people about explosives, or chemicals, or some common items. Ones that
you arnt sure if its true, post them here, and lets all clear them up.
I read in the book - "Blaster's Training Manual" , and it said in there that one gallon of gas is equal to over something like 20
sticks of dynamite. I know its powerful, but thats a lot of explosive.
Here's another - "A car battery is like 5 sticks of dynamite itself, so If you caught an electric golf cart on fire, it could make a
hole in the ground"
Any of these true? :confused:
Bugger August 24th, 2004, 02:47 AM

Nah. In order to be explosive, gasoline has to be mixed with an adequate supply of a good oxidant, in the absence of which it
is harmless. By comparison, dynamite, the principal active constituent of which is nitroglycerine (glyceryl trinitrate), has in its
same molecules both an inflammable part (the glyceryl radical) and an oxidant (the covalent nitrate groups). This ensures a
greater rate of propagation of ignition, producing expanding hot gases, than liquid gasoline in the presence of air, and hence
greater explosive force.
Bugger.

Well it would be a good explosive if you could maintain a highly concentrated vapor cloud of N20 and gasoline. That has some
serious potential.
Boomer August 24th, 2004, 04:15 AM

Both are true and not true!
Dynamite has approx. 5 MJ/kg while gas has 40 MJ/kg. This means gas has about 8 times more energy. The problem is you
normally cannot release that amount of energy within microseconds, like you can with HEs.
If you could (e.g. mix the gas with liquid N2O4 etc), the same weight of gas would do more damage than dynamite. Just think
of how much ANFO you could mix with a gal. of gas, and subtract the energy that the AN contributes .... :D
A medium size car battery has approx. 12V x 45Ah = 0.54 kWh = 1.9 MJ. This is half a kilo of 40% dynamite. Again, this
energy will not be released in microseconds. If you short it, it can catch fire, and if you burn it, either the plastic melts and it
runs out, or the little gas inside could explode. But this is no big bang, rather like <1g AP, it splits the casing, spills acid etc so
you shouldnt put your face over it . :p
They were somehow right, but were both comparing apples to bananas!
TreverSlyFox August 24th, 2004, 08:52 AM

Having been a Volunteer Fireman I've seen more than my share of vehicle fires. In EVERY case of the gas tank going off there
was a "Whump" sound which buldged the tank and blew off the gas cap and filler door sending a flame jet about 3' long. In
one case it did open the seam in the tank about 1/2" and burning gas dripped from the tank.
No big explosion, no giant fireball, in fact it didn't even lift the back end of the vehicle off the ground but it did "unload" the
shocks. The biggest danger came from the exploding tires, damn rubber tread flew every where and one rear tire blew off a
fender and tossed it about 15' away.
I've had one car battery explode on me while "jumping" another car and it did exactly what Boomer described. It split the case
and blew acid all over the engine compartment. Luckly my head was over the open hood or my face would have been covered
in acid. Moral to the story, don't "jiggle" the hot cable once it's attached to the post.
If you really want to see an impressive site watch what happens to a full O2 tank when it's dropped and the valve shears away.
The tank was about 4' tall and 6-8" around. It went threw 2 concrete block walls, traveled just over a city block and punched
itself into the trunk of a big Buick parked in the lot of a Big Boys resturant. Idiot was moving the tank in a pickup truck without
the safety cap on it and dropped it off the truck backing into a building. He had 3 tanks in the truck and his luck was to have
the one without the cap on it fall out of the truck, he had them tied in the bed with some twine. Murphy was watching that day.
K9 August 24th, 2004, 11:48 AM

Here is something - http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/energies.htm
you might want to look at, that discusses about the energy contained within gas as compared to high explosives.
Dave Angel August 24th, 2004, 01:18 PM

I've just read an article in this month's NewScientist (21 August 2004), about the wreck of the USS Richard Montgomery, sat on
a sandbank only 2km from Sheerness in Kent, (approx. population 11,000).
It's a 'Liberty' cargo ship that ran aground carrying thousands of bombs for the WW2 effort. Some were salvaged back in 1944
for that effort but over 13,700 explosive devices were left, and now the decaying wreck is posing a serious danger.
A kind of falsity, (more lack of knowledge I suppose), I picked up on was here:
In 1946 bomb-disposal experts at the Ministry of Defence added reassuringly that the bombs "would not be likely to constitute
a danger if they are unfuzed (sic), provided that no big explosion takes place in close proximity to them".
Notice that the author of the article (sic)'ed the spelling of fuze. The correct spelling.
The author then went on to use fuse in reference to the HE initiators in the bombs for the rest of the article. :rolleyes:
But of course we can't expect someone writing for a major scientific journal to know the difference between a fuze and a fuse,
or at least check their dictionary, can we? :confused:
tmp August 24th, 2004, 03:50 PM

TreverSlyFox, your post was interesting ! I remember my HAZMAT training
pretty well and have to retake the test every time I renew my CDL. The
idiot with the O2 cylinders - I hoped his ass was jailed, fined, or both ! Did
this idiot have a HAZMAT endorsement on his license ? You know yourself
that that securing with twine and without protective caps is a recipe for
disaster. That guy was fucking moron !
As for gasoline, I have an impressive video the Navy shot of its ordnance
tests out at China Lake, California. The LCMDR who loaned me the tape
(and of course I copied it) told me about 1 of the gasoline-based FAEs that
was demonstrated. IIRC, 600 gallons of gasoline dispersed into the air and
ignited. The flame front completely destroyed whatever was in its path not
only with fire but what also appeared to be an enormous shockwave. I've
heard the story of the gasoline/dynamite equivalent and no doubt there is
some truth to it in an FAE application.
CommonScientist August 24th, 2004, 04:53 PM

So basically, the only way to have gasoline put out close to its full power, would be to put it into an aerosol, then ignite, but it
still is hard to acsess its power quickly, like with an HE.
I always wondered about a battery thing, good to clear it up.
Jacks Complete August 24th, 2004, 06:30 PM

The amount of energy in a Mars bar far exceeds that of a stick of dynamite. If butter could be made to explode with the same
timescales as an HE, you would have the most powerful (chemical) explosive known to man, by mass.
From memory, a stick of dynamite has only 4kJ of energy, whereas a mars bar has 400+kJ of energy. However, it takes your
body a few hours to get the energy out of a Mars, whereas a detonator will output the entire stick of dynamite in a few
milliseconds.
FAE is loved because it is very cheap, yet very powerful. You get to dump all that hydrocarbon energy goodness into the event
in a few tens of milliseconds. In theory, you could get the kind of detonation event seen in car engines that are mis-timed,
too, which would further shorten the time it takes to dump the energy.
Boomer August 25th, 2004, 03:18 AM

Sorry Jack but it is 4 KJ per gram, not per stick! Still Mars is higher (even dry bread is higher at 1200 kJ/100g).
Speaking of energy content, what about the hype on benzene triozonide (sp)? Some crap book says it has over 8 MJ/kg, which
is 20% more than the perfect CHNO explosive (EGDN with zero OB). I thought this was only possible with metal fuels, fluorine
compounds etc.! Are these 20% coming from the peroxide (ozonide) bonds?

Anyone have any pictures of grain elevator explosions?
Hmmm, bread you say, oh well, there isnt an plausable way to harness this energy in a short amount of time is there?
Jacks Complete September 6th, 2004, 09:11 PM

Boomer, comparing like for like, they both have the same ratio by the gram.
If Dynamite is 4kJ per gram, and Mars is 18.85kJ/g, my arguement still holds! The Mars bar is 4.5 times more "powerful", but
over hours, not milliseconds.
CommonScientist, the way to harness the power quickly is an intimate mix of the food with liquid oxygen. Then light it. That
gets the energy out pretty damned quickly!
g_wood September 13th, 2004, 11:46 PM

About the gasoline explosion, that is how a car engine works. It is mixed with air and a vapor and then compressed and
ignited, causeing harnessing the force to make the axle turn.
Boomer September 14th, 2004, 10:00 AM

Thanks for telling us, nobody here knew ! :p
I read in an older post that the higher sensitivity of acidic AP is also a falsity. Everybody here rants on about how important
bicarb washes are, while one of the chemistry pros here posted that while this is true for HMTD, ketonic peroxides are not
sensitised by (moderate) acidity. Remember H2O2 is stabilized by acetic acid!
At least if using HCl it should not be necessary to use bicarb, any traces left will vanish when you dry the stuff. IIRC Mega does
not mention it either.
Another myth is that drying NG will prevent it from getting acidic, because the NOx formed cannot form acid without water. The
truth is that NG is decomposed by the NOx alone. And the less water present, the stronger the acid formed will be!

Another explosive falsity I have come across just recently on another thread: that terephthalic acid (para-benzenedicarboxylic
acid), usually polycopolymerized with diols to make polyesters, can be efficiently made into explosive compounds, e.g. by
nitration. It could be done, but very inefficiently, unless it is either firstly decarboxylated to benzene, or, with some difficulty,
firstly reduced to p-xylene (which is also not entirely satisfactory); but in either case, uneconomic compared to starting with
benzene (or better still toluene) in the first place.
Bugger.

A few 'low tech' falsities:
Explosives always detonate with a huge fireball in the movies! None of the explosives I ever used show anything else than a
pale flash. I wonder, if even warheads detonate with a fireball. I can imagine, that umpteen kilos of a negative OB explosive
can show some fire. What's about TNT or dinitro-naphthalen? Do these show flames???
Similar, the believe, that one could 'ignite' a gaz or petrol container by detonating some dynamite put below it.
Or even the ridiculous panic of a flame striking back (through the hose) into the propane can and blow up the whole caravan.
My parents still believe that shit!!
Life would be lot more easy if all this was true :cool:
sevin September 19th, 2004, 03:05 PM

Most explosions done in the movies are nap charges, or sometimes they use petrol. Or so I hear.

Those "fireball" explosions in the movies, and fires, are usually simulated using Hollywood "special effects". If they were real,
they would be very expensive to do, as well as posing serious dangers to the actors.
Bugger.
K9 September 19th, 2004, 05:57 PM

That's the problem with movies - it's more important for the effect to look good than to represent truth. And technically yes, as
long as there is a negative oxygen balance leaving something to react with oxygen in the atmosphere there can be (what I
think is referred to as) a secondary fireball. It won't definitely happen but it can. But then again - it does look impressive in a
movie to see a massive fireball.
But once you start going into falsities in movies, you can just about pick any movie with explosives in it and show where they
are wrong. Like when when the guy outruns the blast - I'm sure he can run faster than an 8 km/s detonation wave. Or when
they make a high explosive by mixing mothballs and ammonia from the corner grocery mart. The list just goes on.
nuclearattack September 21st, 2004, 04:55 PM

To Boomer:
my congratulations to you Boomer! You always write good posts, very informative and with a lot of HE's knowledge.
About AP's acidic sensivity i agree with you. I wash my AP only one time and with a bit of bicarbonate and my AP is very stable.
I can press it, i can blow it with a hammer but it doesn't detonate. Well it detonate by hammer blow but i have to hit very
strong!
I think that the most important thing is the reaction temperature, a low temp will give trimeric AP that is more stable.
About explosives falsities i read in a anarchist book that they use to set off astrolite with a fuse!
In a FBI document they said that AP is as powerfull as RDX! If it were only true!
FinnBell October 18th, 2004, 07:54 PM

Oh this is classic,I remember a long time ago reading totse and thinking it was like official or some shit. That was before I
gained any knowledge of O-chem. But I remember reading that if you took some potassium permanganate and put it in a
half filled jar of gasoline that it would be the equivilant of half a stick of dynamite. Needless to say, thats ridiculous. Its funny
because I know people who think that shit is real and talk about it like its something to try. Of course these are the same
people who know NOTHING about where to obtain potassium permanganate much less any other chemical.
THErAPIST October 18th, 2004, 11:20 PM

Well... Has anyone ever actually shot at a can full of gasoline? On the movies it sure as hell blows up if they throw it behind
them ast they're being chased, and then they shoot it with a snub nose .38 doesnt it?
Would it catch on fire?... Maybe... If the planets align right and such, but blow up... Not unless you could pay god to make it
possible.
K9 October 19th, 2004, 03:19 AM
They tested shooting a gas tank of a car on mythbusters. Five bullets went through, and no ignition whatsoever.
nbk2000 October 19th, 2004, 01:32 PM

Lighter flint fragments inside of a hollowpoint would make a difference. :)
zeocrash October 19th, 2004, 05:59 PM

Those big french bangers are really sticks of dynamite.
At least that's what some kid tried to convince me :P
Joeychemist October 19th, 2004, 07:25 PM

Anyone ever try shooting a propane tank?In the movies they always seem to blow up just like the gas tanks of cars. :rolleyes:
.I wanted to try this for my self.I don't have a spare gas tank but I do have three propane tanks lying around.
So I filled the tanks up,and made some special bullets.Using NBK2000's idea I bought a pack of five lighter flints and stuck
the flints in the hollow tip of some long range .22 bullets.(they fit perfect).Then I removed a 5" circular patch of the protective
layer of spark proof paint that coats two of the tanks.Then I set up the tanks and shot them each from 50 ft away.
My results were;The first tank I shot with a regular bullet,It was one with the protective coating removed,nothing hapenned.The
next two tanks were shot with the special bullets,the tank with the coating still on it shot a twenty ft flame out of the hole
where the bullet entered for about 6-7 seconds.The tank with the protective coating removed blew right up when shot with the
modified bullet.
So from the tests I have done I'm pretty damn sure that unless you're using bullets with flint in the tips you probably won't be
blowing up propane tanks just by shooting them.but then again it could happen,It's just unlikely. :D
FinnBell October 19th, 2004, 10:02 PM

I hate when people try to act like they are some kind of expert on explosives, especially when they are all talking about shit
from the ACB and you KNOW they are full of shit but I mean you cant really say anything I mean, you cant be like "hey I
make explosives and thats not true" you kinda just gotta sit there ignore it.
THErAPIST October 20th, 2004, 12:45 AM

Yeah, that does fuckin suck...
@k9.. I never saw that episode of Mythbusters... Actually I never even knew they made that one! Damnit! I was gonna shoot a
plastic 2 gallon gas can with an AK for an experiment to put on my website! Bastards beat me to it...
Um.. Dragon's breath shotgun ammo is a shotty shell full of flint particles... You'd have to cover the end of the hollow point
with a metal plug or piston of some sort to prevent the flint particles inside from flaring up in the barrel though me thinks. Fill
around the flint with magnesium flakes and you've got starburst ammo, which would make a huge difference between
punching a hole in a tank and making it burst into flames.
I remember in an old western movie where the characters were supposedly placing bottles of NG in the bridge supports...
That's the ONLY movie I can remember where they used actual explosives rather than a nap charge to blow something appart
K9 October 20th, 2004, 01:50 AM

It was a pretty good episode. They were shooting the shit out of the car at one point.
But relating to dragon's breath, I was under the impression that they used magnesium (and possibly WP).
http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/publicacts/pubact92/acts/92-0423.html - here lists it as --> "Dragon's breath shotgun
shell" means any shotgun shell that contains exothermic pyrophoric mesh metal as the
projectile and is designed for the purpose of throwing or spewing a flame or fireball to simulate a flame-thrower."
And here's another interesting site on that - http://www.mindspring.com/~bad_karma/gaming/WoD/Gunfondlers/

Dragonsbreath.htm
knowledgehungry October 20th, 2004, 08:26 AM

Notice that the author of the article (sic)'ed the spelling of fuze. The correct spelling.
The author then went on to use fuse in reference to the HE initiators in the bombs for the rest of the article. :rolleyes:
But of course we can't expect someone writing for a major scientific journal to know the difference between a fuze and a fuse,
or at least check their dictionary, can we? :confused:
Interestingly enough almost all military specs. refer to it as a fuze. I believe the difference is that a fuse is the burning string
while a fuze is the method used by military explosives. Normally it is a percussion based initiation method. Where I work we
make "fuze kits" used to disarm "fuzes", and what we are disarming is a percussion based initiation system,eliminating the
need for overly sensitive primaries.
SweNMFan October 20th, 2004, 10:18 AM

Lighter flint fragments inside of a hollowpoint would make a difference.
Or use tracer rounds, during my service we started a forrest fire shooting tracers.. :D
FUTI October 20th, 2004, 12:20 PM
I have no good story to tell this time except the one I asked before and you guys told me it's a myth...that explosive charge
that is mixed with some fine sawdust makes greater effect (supposedly FAE?)
Just some comments on other post. I agree that H2O2 is acid stable, but I taught that it is H3PO4 that is used to buffer it to
rigth pH range and heavy-metal ion complexing. Why should H2O2 be acid sensitive when it is itself weakly acidic compared to
water?
As for organic compound air mixtures...My old professor told students on the lecture of accident that happend to him. There
has been some experiment with acetone - liquid nitrogen mixture. It would be OK if the bottle provided by supply service
contained liquid nitrogen...but it was liquid air:( I want describe what happend...exept that the women who worked with him still
have small glass fragments in her legs (don't wear skirts even if you are from Scotland). This happend long time ago and
before people became aware of danger with improperly labeled bottles.

"You'd have to cover the end of the hollow point with a metal plug or piston of some sort to prevent the flint particles inside
from flaring up in the barrel though me thinks"
Being at the front of the bullet, they're not in contact with the propellent gases, so won't ignite. Anyway, lighter flints
(zirconium?) aren't exactly flammable, they just glow and slowly oxidise.

Flints glow and slowly oxidise yes, but if they're hot and they are impacted in pretty much any way, the flint will burst into a
bright shower of sparks, accompanied by a bright flash. I've got a video of this on my digi vid cam, but I have no good way of
getting the video from the camera to the computer. Transfering the video from the cam to the computer with the usb cable
gives me some choppy ass video :(
Air friction would heat the flint up, but I'm not sure as to whether it would actualy get impacted by the air or anything hard
enough to make the flint shatter and spark up. Better safe than sorry though right?
Also I've only thought about the dragons breath ammo having flint in it becase it was mentioned to me before, and then I
found a patent for a dragons breath kind of round that was full of flint pieces. It's probably not the most common dragons
breath kind of round though.
nbk2000 October 20th, 2004, 06:29 PM

The flints aren't going to do anything inside the barrel, nor the bullet, until impact with a hard target. At which point they'll be
broken up and the friction of being pushed through metal will ignite the fragments into a shower of nice n' hot sparks,
sufficient to ignite fuel vapors.
Take a lighter flint, wrap it inside of end of a stretched out lighter-flint spring (from a dud lighter), and heat it red-hot in a
flame. Once it's glowing, toss it against a hard surface and watch what happens. :)

That's actually what the video I have on My digital video camera is of.. heh heh. Cheap thrill...
Using a portion of the large flint from a flint and steel fire starter in the end of a hollow point should be much more effective
than many different flints.
Back on topic and more falsaties though... Isn't it funny how in movies they can but a 2lb block of "C-4" in the front door of 2
story brick concrete and completely disentegrate the entire building and the 2 buildings beside it? It gets even more humorous
though when a block the same size is put on a safe door (in the same movie even) in a bank and all it does is blow the door
open without ripping it from the wall or denting it?

Or like in the old Arnie movie Commando where he uses claymore's to blow up buildings
FinnBell October 21st, 2004, 12:55 PM

Holy crap! I remember that movie! When I was like 7 that was like my favorite movie. But yeah totally unrealistic, he sets all
these claymores then on his way out, when hes running through that field and all the building like blow up behind him, its
clearly not even close to realistic, especially with all that fire. But man I didnt know that when I was little and holy crap that
movie rocked for its day. LOL (Nostalgia setting in)
echosierra January 13th, 2007, 10:26 AM

I have always been told that a full disposable lighter is equal to a stick of dynamite by some uneducated "friends" I used to
hang out with. They freaked when I told them that they won't then threw one in a fire. Nice little pop and fireball, but nothing
spectacular.
Altroman February 4th, 2007, 02:52 PM

Fuel tanks are usually composed of non-pyrophoric metals just for that very reason - to prevent ignition during a severe
accident. The ignition (if any) would not occur as the projectile enters the reducing environment of the fuel tank, but once it
exits the other side, ejecting a fine mist of fuel into the air. If there was enough kinetic energy still left in the round to strike
pavement and generate a spark, then this fuel-air mixture might ignite. Otherwise you will be left with a leaking fuel tank,
creating a high risk of fire. My fears have not been the bullets which strike the tank itself, but rather those which follow and
strike the fuel-moistened concrete nearby - no flints required.
Shalashaska February 4th, 2007, 08:17 PM
Let us not forget the ability of Lite-Brite's to spontaneously detonate and cause mass death.:rolleyes:
anonymous411 February 7th, 2007, 06:54 PM

It's easy to scoff at the hysteria, but seeing as how I'm not familiar with cartoons or lite brites, I'm not sure what I would have
thought had I glanced up and seen of those displays attached to an underpass. If they covered up the wires and batteries and
shit, maybe more people would have instantly recognized it as a sign.
Fuck ads and ad agencies anyway. People who push product at the expense of cluttering the city deserve a good kick in the
nuts, just on the principle of the thing. There's no truer mark of a consumerist sheep than letting yourself be conned into
identifying with a product--or even worse-- an advertising campaign.
nbk2000 February 8th, 2007, 02:09 AM

It's getting harder and harder to find things that aren't just plastered with logos.
Go into Wal-Mart and try to find a baseball cap without a logo. I've managed a couple of times, but they cost almost twice as
much as the hats with sports team logos. :rolleyes:
anonymous411 February 8th, 2007, 03:53 AM

Isn't that the truth! And with sunglasses, even the expensive ones don't give you that option! I once went to look for a pair at
an upscale department store in Manhattan. Everything sucked because it had logos all over it--like I want to pay hundreds of
dollars for the privilege of my face being a fucking free ad for Dior! On top of that, they were all poorly made; barely any
better quality than the rip-offs you see everywhere. It dawned on me that the entire designer sunglasses market is a racket
and a total scam perpetrated against rich suckers.
I must have been standing there for a long time because the sales bitch asked what type of glasses I was interested in. "Do
you have anything that doesn't have a logo on it?" With her big, fat, idiotic empty face, she looked at me like I was from
another planet. "Why don't you want a logo on it?" she whined with mild scorn. Like that was a bizarre request that was totally
beyond the limit of her comprehension. "Well, I just don't." "Um, no not really..." she said, eying me skeptically.
Damn. Sometimes it really feels like I am from another planet.
crsk8andsno56 February 11th, 2007, 01:39 AM

Ok here is probably the most common mistake that MANY of my friends have said. ~~One M-80 is equal to a quarter stick of
dynamite~~ Ive tried to prove them wrong with the pure physics of it but they just keep saying NO MY FREIND TOLD ME IT
WAS! So theres a common one.
Dr. Hextromeister February 24th, 2007, 07:20 PM

"Make a pouch out of the newspaper and put some fertilizer in it.
Then put cotton on top. Soak the cotton with fuel. Then light and
run like you have never ran before! This blows up 500 square feet
so don't do it in an alley!! - Jolly Roger"
That one always made me laugh, but more the thought of some complete idiot trying it in his parent's back yard. :D
Frunk February 25th, 2007, 03:56 PM

Ah, the good old fertilizer AN fuse sensitive bomb.
That's more like a crappy smoke bomb than an high explosive. Making explosives is easy if you know what you're doing, but
those k3wl k00kbooks make you think that setting fire to any mix of household products can detonate.
No, little jimmy, mixing Tide, Bleach and gas does not make an explosive. :rolleyes:
Shalashaska February 26th, 2007, 12:37 AM

Ha, Dr. Hextromeister inspired me...
The creator of this page and any links it may lead to hereby takes no responsability or liability for anything that happens as a
result of reading anything on this page or anything contained in subsequent pages. Users read at their own risk. It is NOT
reccomended that the user do anything described in this and subsequent pages. Doing so may result in serious trouble,
arrest, injury, and possibly deportation or death. Thank you
The entire final sentence is false, except the last one in the list.
Thermiteisfun November 13th, 2007, 11:24 AM

Essentially anything posted on Bombshock is a load of shit
Positron November 13th, 2007, 08:19 PM

There is a lot of explosives bullshit in the movies, with huge fireballs and total mayhem from impossibly small charges. I
cringe when I see such things. It's just so damned stupid.
Even standard Sheeple :D seem to be tired of the lame-ass fireballs in movies. When are the producers going figure it out??
Remember the movie "Heat" with Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer, Al Pacino? I thought that the scene with the linear shaped
charge, used on the back of an armed vehicle, was exceedingly well done and realistic. I though that the human factor (the
truck driver completely dazed from the blast) was excellent as well.
Another "OK" scene is in The Bourne Supremacy, where Jason Bourne turns the gas on in a house then shoves some
newspaper in a toaster. :D The resulting pressure pulse inside the house looks fairly realistic, though there is too much smoke
(which I wouldn't think would happen in a propane/air explosion) and three "bad guys" get forcibly blown across the yard. I'm
pretty sure that wouldn't happen either.

In Heat, the overpressure from the LSC blew out the back windows of cars in the car lot. If the overpressure was that strong,
that far away, the guys inside the armored car would have been dead.
Hinckleyforpresident November 13th, 2007, 09:54 PM

A couple days ago I was editing HE videos in a cafe and a kewl (who I don't even know) approached me. He started telling me
all about how ANFO was fuse sensitive and how he wanted to make kilos of AP (even though he'd never made it in the first
place).
I told him that he was wrong about the ANFO. As for the AP..... I told him about phone.
Then I recommended he gets off totse before he dies.
totenkov November 13th, 2007, 11:22 PM

Lots of buddies of mine "blew up a lot of stuff" on Halloween, or so I was told. Then they told me they got their hands on a
few M-80's. Impressive! I'm thinking to myself :rolleyes:. (my friend and I were setting of a very large ETN charge on the
beach, see my other thread)
It annoys me a great deal that these people boast about taking the "mysterious powder" out of fireworks and making REALLY
BIG BOMBZ. :D Fools! Meanwhile I am just dieing to belittle these people into mush with what I do for a hobby, but there is
something important to be learned here. This is one thing that isn't a good idea to show off about. Even as insignificant as it
would seem, with wrong listeners, word travels fast, often to the wrong people. Its wise to show discretion.
Positron November 14th, 2007, 12:43 AM

Oh crap, this is too good. I was just scrolling through YouTube (looking for explosives videos of course), and found a video
titled "9/11 CONSPIRACY:WERE THERMITE SHAPE CHARGES USED AT THE WTC?"
:D
They misspelled "Shaped Charges" too.
-------
I'd have to watch "Heat" again and analyze the details, but I assumed that it was shrapnel that blew out the car windows.
megalomania November 14th, 2007, 02:53 AM

Would someone be so kind as to explain to me what a thermite shaped charge actually is? Considering thermite is not an
explosive, I find it hard to believe it can be shaped. Is the concept of a thermite shaped charge some crackpot idea (all I find
on google are crackpots talking about conspiracies), or am I ignorant of this technology?
LibertyOrDeath November 14th, 2007, 03:17 AM

Mega,
I had never heard of it either until on another thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=4155&page=12)

(see final post) NBK mentioned that it can be used as the liner rather than the explosive. Of course you're right that it wouldn't
work as the latter. :)
If there are SC warheads that incorporate thermite, then it may be that the liner isn't exclusively thermite. Perhaps a
multilayer liner is used incorporating both a standard copper layer for penetration and a thermite layer for delayed/prolonged
incendiary effect? I can't quite visualize exactly how that would work, but at any rate, the thermite would play a role analogous
to that of the incendiary in armor-piercing incendiary rifle ammo.
nbk2000 November 14th, 2007, 05:29 AM

There's a patent application by BATTELLE MEMORIAL INSTITUTE (20060266204) for;
...cutting operations using linear thermite charges; the charges cut one dimensional or two dimensional geometric shapes; the
invention is useful for structure entry or demolition.
So Thermite can have a cutting or penetrating effect like a shaped charge, though obviously not as deep.
atlas#11 November 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM

If the plasma from the thermite reaction could be contained enough to direct it onto some structural metal it would be more
than sufficient to collapse a building. Without all the messy shock waves of real shaped charges. It would make sense judging
by the speed of the falling towers and the lack of explosions. However, I have no interest in getting into another argument
over the incident.
I'm thinking a "thermite shaped charge" is something like channel iron filled with thermite with a thin slit cut into one side for
exhaust/cutting. Obviously channel iron wouldn't hold up to the heat so something else would have to have been used.
As far as explosive falsities go, I've heard that a C-cell battery is the equivalent of a frag-grenade when tossed in a fire...
usually, however, they just leak, slowly I might add.
Those kids who "blow stuff up" on Halloween/4th of July are useful though... Ever run low on fuse? Cut it short and make the
noob light it!
fiknet November 14th, 2007, 01:13 PM

He started telling me all about how ANFO was fuse sensitive
Lol I've had one kid tell me about how an M-80 can set off 25kg of ANFO and another tell me in awe about some guy who was
selling baked bean cans filled with crushed sparklers.
Double-Oh-Zero November 14th, 2007, 02:47 PM

I saw this on a forum...
"I am defanitely going to make some BP and flash this weekend, cos I hear it's safe for a begginer (me), but i'm not sure
about it. I understand ratios and that, but do I just mix this stuff together, and light it on fire with a lighter, or what? Should I
shake it to mix it in a container? Also is it a weight rateo or amount like 1 oz to 1 oz or 1 cup to 1 cup?"
I posted that he was dumb and should not try anything till he reads more, but he flames me and goes on to say:
"I heard that dinamite is 50% flash, 25% BP and 25% salfur, (I think i will make some soon), so this isn't that dangerous, cos
they put it in M-80's and a friend told me that one went next to him and nothing hapened."
I don't know what to say...:eek: This is bad and he will get himself killed
EDIT: Later, he says that: "I think dinamite is safe to hold in your hand because it is only flash powder, so i defanitely will
make some this weekend.":eek:
Gammaray1981 November 14th, 2007, 03:50 PM

...Completely missing the fact that flash powder will remove your fingers if you're not nice to it.
"...and light it on fire with a lighter..." - god, I remember doing that at about age ten. I lost all the skin on the side of my
hand, melted the top of the lighter, and had to grow back both my eyebrows and my fringe. Stupid films with people lighting
lines of black powder as a sort of fuse...
I did, for a while, have an aquaintance whose idea of "explosives" was to find anything with the "oxidiser" hazard label on it,
add powdered anything until he had a gallon or so and dampen with petrol, then set a twenty-metre fuse. However often I told
him he was an idiot, he didn't listen, resulting in both him and his little brother going to hospital. He was just lucky he was a
minor, because fireballs and explosions that size are definitely illegal.
Lewis November 15th, 2007, 12:02 AM

This is one thing that isn't a good idea to show off about. Even as insignificant as it would seem, with wrong listeners, word
travels fast, often to the wrong people. Its wise to show discretion.
Wise words indeed.
The less you tell people, the better. The average hobbyist will have ample opportunities to tell would-be "explosive Xpertz"
exactly what time it is. This, however, should be avoided at all costs.
In this day and age, you really do not need word getting out that you have any real knowledge. In fact, I've faked "kewlhood"
on several occasions to escape real trouble.
akinrog November 24th, 2007, 04:37 PM

So Thermite can have a cutting or penetrating effect like a shaped charge, though obviously not as deep.
Actually shaped part is (unintentionally) misleading. When people see the word "charge", they tend to believe that it's an
explosive device. Actually charge means load, so it's not an explosive device but rather a cutting device.
I remember finding a few you tube videos showing thermite charges in action. (Like this one : http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=Wn-MCCZ3O1M)
You can hear hiss and pop sound in the video.
MetallicJesus November 26th, 2007, 04:07 PM

There's a lot of misconception about consumer fireworks. Many people refer to the flash inside of firecrackers as "gunpowder".
I've also had a cousin tell me that high explosives can be set off with a model rocket engine in place of a detonator.
Charles Owlen Picket November 27th, 2007, 10:39 AM

However there is a difference between what one person conceives and what is generally determined to be a "falsity". We can
look at what one individual, through personal lack of knowledge, believes and what is a common misconception. I think this
thread is about common misconceptions. "If you drop NG on the ground it will always detonate with utmost violence"
(measurable VoD & initiation sensitivity). "Dynamite is initiated with a fuse". (Conceptualizing that material does not need a
detonator) "Ammonium Nitrate is an explosive" (Not knowing the difference between a blasting agent and a secondary
explosive).
Rbick November 28th, 2007, 10:53 AM
As far as misconceptions go with NG, we can thank Hollywood for those. I was watching a TV show (Lost) with my wife a few
nights ago. It is an entertaining show, but there was a point in the particular episode where they come accross Nitroglycerine.
The supposed "expert" was warning them that simply dropping it could cause it to explode while holding a stick of the
dynamite, when all of the sudden, he explodes in a flash and get spread over a mile of forest. Obviously, NG should be
handled with care, but simply holding it will not set it off. And if you did drop it, you would have to get a fairly solid hit,
especially if it is desensitized with clay, AN, ect. He also stated that NG is the "most sensitive explosive known to man", which
is entirely false.
Also, I would urge you to read some of the posts people have made on my youtube videos involving NG here (http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqlhTuV4DQ) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bO6YEi0lu8). People seem to think .1g
of NG will destroy the area the size of a football field. I deleted one last night, which I shouldn't have because it was hilarious.
It went something like this:
"Fucking retard, that wasn't Nitro. Nitro explodes with a big fireball. And 25g would have blown up the camera."
I used proper grammar and puncuation, which he didn't, but you get the point. Or here is a good one:
"If it was plain Nitroglycerin it would like blow that pond up. Does the ammonium nitrate lower its explosion."
And this is my personal favorite:
"Fuck you bitch

This is not nitroglycerine sucker
You would be died if it really was.
This was equivalent to a 0,1 to 0,2 grams of nitro charge.
Also, there wasn't any flame.
Nitro is making a lot of fire when exploding so stop sucking sucker!"
Its funny how people with lowered cognitive ability (due to their mother drinking when pregnant, drugs, ect.) always instantly
resort to starting their posts with "Fuck". So anyway, we can all thank Hollywood for making every 12 year old who watches Die
Hard 2 Xplosive Xpertz :p

Hollywood's' a scream! I like the "fireball" in every explosion ever filmed. My wife's family has some "effects" guys sprinkled in
there and once we got into a discussion about it. I said I thought that effect was over used and the guy I was talking to was
amazed that anyone would even critique the effect.
From what I would determine many of the effects guys don't really know the composition of the materials used. I personally
think it's gross hydrocarbons in most of the big ones and naphthalene + flash in some of the smaller ones.
Hollywood is responsible for so many misconceptions in so many different venues, it's sickening.
Bert November 28th, 2007, 11:51 AM

From what I would determine many of the effects guys don't really know the composition of the materials used. I personally
think it's gross hydrocarbons in most of the big ones and naphthalene + flash in some of the smaller ones.
I don't like to be called a pyrotechNICIAN. That's what many of the effects guys are- They just take pre-packaged effects, wire
them up and shoot them. They often couldn't make what they use, many don't know the chemistry or techniques of
manufacture.
As far as what the fireball effects are- If it's near an actor or valuable prop/scenery, it's often a dust fire ball such as non dairy
creamer and/or finely powdered napthalene lifted with plain old black powder. If it's out in the open, it's often a liquid fuel.
Depending on the size and effect desired, it may be lifted with either high explosives or black powder. Additionally, there are
pre packaged effects simulating mortar hits and other small explosions- They are usually dust effects.
At this point, if you try to make an explosion that looks real, the audience won't get it. They are conditioned to the fireball
look... And they all think that you can out run a shock wave on foot.
One of the first things I usually tell someone I am teaching to shoot is: If you saw it on TV or in the movies, forget it. That's
not how it works in the real world.
Rbick November 28th, 2007, 07:39 PM

What are you talking about Bert? I outran a shockwave on foot once! :D
I was once on a quest to make an explosion similar to those seen on the movies just out of curiousity. I suceeded when I put
500g of APAN under 7.4L of gasoline. The fireball was impressive, I still have it uploaded to my photobucket account here
(http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Compile/?action=view&current=FAE.flv). This follows the same method
outlined in the military improvised explosives handbook where it is described as a "fuel air explosive". There are two stage
FAEs that first launch the fuel in a cloud and then detonate it with a second charge a few miliseconds later. This one was
obviously a single stage. It is generally used to destroy thin walled structures, such as crappy mud huts and used in caves. In
the future, I may try the same design, except with 500g of PLX, ANNM, or some other high explosive over a few gallons of
naptha. Anyway, it is funny how people believe NG and HEs in general is always accompanied by a fireball. Silly kids...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > How to m a k e H 2 N 2 O 2 ?
Log in
View Full Version : How to make H2N2O2?
The_Rsert August 27th, 2004, 12:32 PM

H a s s o m o n e e v e r m a de it?
Does somebody know how to m ake H2N2O2?
It's an white powder wich is very explosiv and sensitiv to shock a nd frictio n.
M a y b e y o u c a n m a k e i t s o : N 2 O + H 2 0 ( m aybe + cataylsator) ---> H2N2O2?
meselfs August 28th, 2004, 09:52 PM

Merck says that your chem ical is called nitramide. Here's some pieces of info from it:
Prepd from p o t a s s i u m nitrocarbamate: Thiele, Lachm ann, Ber. 27, 1909, (1894)
[Now that's vague...]
Unstable, shiny white leaflets from ether + petr ether, m p 7 2 - 7 5 (dec). Should be freshly prepd wh e n n e e d e d .
Unfortunately, there's no entry for potassium nitrocarbam ate, neither is there for the sodium salt.
See also:
I personally think this stuff isn't especially useful, however the a m m onium salt sounds interesting...
krimmie August 29th, 2004, 08:45 AM

Actually, H2N2O2 is Hyponitrous acid: an explosive crystalline weak acid. The following link provides this half reaction 2HNO2 +
4H+ + 4e -----> H2N2O2 + 2H2O.
http://www.chemicalelements.hom e s t e a d . c o m / n i t r o g e n . h t m l

Thanks!
W h e n I h a v e enough nitrite salts, I will m a k e s o m e tests.
But now I'm hard up with my pocket money :( ...
FUTI Novem ber 24th, 2004, 02:25 PM

I bevieve that is a very hard to make substance so in the end you may find it to m uch of a trouble for the results obtained.
I think also that it will react with am m o n i a , b u t m a y b e t h e a m m onium salt is hard to make as is the case with nitrite.
Joeychemist Novem ber 24th, 2004, 05:07 PM

Hyponitrous acid- (C hem.), an unstable nitrogen acid, {NOH},
whose salts are produced by reduction of the nitrates,
although the acid itself is not isolated in the free state
except as a solution in water; -- called also {nitrosylic
acid}.
Is it just m e o r s h o u l d n t t h e r e b e a l o t m ore informa tion on this s u b s t a n c e ?

:(
I have just searched for about an hour and have found nothing other than an old text book from grade twelve that has
s o m e info about this acid but it is not m uch use to us.I found nothing Not even a patent. I found that the Molecular weight
i s : 6 2 , 0 3 . A n d t h e m elting point is well . It just says that it explodes when it m elts. Not to inform a t i v e e h ?
vurr D e c e m ber 9th, 2004, 06:01 PM

Brauer,Georg-Handbuch Der Prparativen Anorganischen Chemie BAND I.pdf
page 480
The_Rsert D e c e m ber 10th, 2004, 10:52 AM

I have just found this in an old (1939) German chemistry book (H. Rem y, Lehrbuch der anorganischen Che mie, Band 1,):
Hyponitrous acid and hyponitrites:

Free hyponitrous aicd, H2N2O2 builds white, on air melting and very explosiv cristalls. ... It's good soluble in water an ethanol,
bad soluble in diethyl ether. ...
Hyponitrites can be easily prepared by neutralising the acid with an alkali hydroxide ... H2N2O 2 ---> H20+N2O ...
Hyponitrous acid can be precipatet, when a "salpetrigsaures" salt or NxOx will be reduced by sodium am a l g a m in wa ter.
It can be pre pared, by oxidation of hydroxyl amine or b y condensation of nitrous acid with hydroxyl amine. The yield will be
poor.
2 Ag2O + 2 H2NOH ---> H2N2O 2 + 2 H2O + 4 Ag

or
HONH2 + ONO H ---> H2N2O2 + H2O
...
Nitramides and hyponitrites are related isomers...
...
Sorry my cam e r a a n d m y scanner are fucked up :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Is IN3 an explosive?
Log in
View Full Version : Is IN3 an explosive?
The_Rsert August 27th, 2004, 12:46 PM

Has someone of you made JN3?
I tried this: AgN3 + J2 ---> JN3 + AgJ.
But it don't e x p l o d e !
I s s o m ething wrong with this Idea?
H a s s o m e o n e o f y o u t r i e d t o m a k e a m m o n i u m azide (N4H4) or hydraziniume azide (N5H5)?
Sorry about m y english :( :p :D !
megalomania August 28th, 2004, 01:10 PM

And what, pray tell, is element J ?!?
Sarevok August 28th, 2004, 02:14 PM

There is no thing such as J am o n g t h e e l e m e n t s , n o t e v e n a m ong the te mporary names for the artificial ones.
Anyways, he is talking about a non-m etallic compound that usually has a valency of -1 (you can guess this from the
compounds he posted, "J2" and "AgJ"). My guess is Iodine.
HyggeD K August 28th, 2004, 06:53 PM

Yes, The_Rsert is most likely talking about iodine. Perhaps The_Rsert is Germ a n o r f o u n d s o m e G e r m a n l i t e r a t u r e . I o d i n e i s
called "Jod" in Germa n, for wh ich the sym bol "J" is often used. I've seen it used a lot in German articles, especially old ones.
S o m e Germ ans still u se J / J2 instead of I / I2 although it has b ecom e o b s o l e t e a n d I m o s t o f t e n u s e d .
I have read about the preparation of iodine azide, which is often perform ed by reacting iodine in ether with silver azide. I ha ve
never tried it though since I have never had an y u s e f o r i o d i n e a z i d e . L e a d a n d s i l v e r a z i d e i s f u n e n o u g h f o r m e : )

Y e s , I m ean IN3 and not JN3, I'm sorry!
I h a v e j u s t a s k e d a p roffesor who has prepared IN3 in his study-time on an university for the proporeties: IN3 is m ore powerful
than NI3, large cristalls on the floor will detonate if touched by shoes (this will be a cool joke) but he sayd that it has the sam e
sensivity than NI3.
He don't rem ember the synth of IN3 exactly, but he sayd that they they don't used another azide like sodium - or silver azide.
H e s a y d s o m ething of using h ydrazine and HNO2 directly to get azide salts!
Sounds intersting... I will ask him again next tim e....
I'm sorry about m y bad english....
vurr D e c e m ber 7th, 2004, 10:28 AM

little off topic,but not much..
reaction of AgN3 and NI3 (3:1) and (im )possible product N(N3)3 ,triazidam ine?
if that exsists,then,yes, its nitrogen...
anyone heard/remem bers something?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C opper Fulm i n a t e
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View Full Version : Copper Fulminate
xeophist August 27th, 2004, 06:52 PM

Hello,
I've run out of m ercury today, so m y P ETN detonations cam e to an end. It will take three weeks until a new shipm e n t o f
m ercury arrives, so I would like to substitute it with som ething else. I never m a k e e x p l o s i v e s p e r o x i d e s l i k e A P , b e c a u s e i t i s
u n s t a b l e a n d c a r r i e s a f l a g o f w a n n a b e b o m ber junkies and because it is overly lame. I just found some fine copper powder
a m o n g m y reagents and would like to ask any inm a t e s i f C o p p e r Fulm inate is worth m aking, if it can effectively sub stitute
m ercury fulm inate? I have 250g of it, and would be really happy if it had the sam e initiating qualities as mercury fulminate.
As to the thread where people were arguing whether BP or Flash can initiate secondarys, I've tried to detonate PETN today with
a Titan class (it is big a n d t h e m ost powerful I could get) firecracker two tim es, with no success. W hat a waste of beautiful
PETN.
Xeo
Marvin August 29th, 2004, 02:51 PM

C o n v e n t i o n a l w i s d o m s a y s y o u h a v e t o m a k e c o p p e r f u l m i n a t e f r o m the m ercury or the silver salt.
T h e r e i s s u p p o s i d l y a m ethod in the preperatory m a n u a l o f e x p l o s i v e s , b u t n o o n e s e e m s to have tried it and its validity is in

doubt. Certainly bits of the synth do not m a k e s e n s e . W h e n t h i s b o o k e n d s u p a v a i l a b l e o n t h e F T P w e ' l l g i v e i t a s e c o n d l o o k .
I wouldnt pay for a book that sounds like the a uthor hasnt actually tried all the experim ents.
T h i s s h o u l d h a v e b e e n posted in other, and if youd have searched you m i g h t h a v e f o u n d t h e o t h e r p o s t a s s u m ing it wasnt lost
in the iDefen ce incide nt.
I would be in clined to try a different primary.
xeophist August 29th, 2004, 07:12 PM

You were correct that there was a thread where som e o n e s t a t e d t h a t m ercury fulm inate ha s t o b e u s e d i n t h e m a k i n g o f c o p p e r
fulm inate, so that fact actually disqualifies CF. O ne way would be lead picrate, as I have som e picric acid available. Do you
think lead picrate would do?

W hy not use AP or HMTD for a couple of weeks? Lets not discuss lead picrate here. I'm sure there m ust be a topic about it.
Does anybody know any specific properties of Cu-fulminate? If its no better than Hg-fulm i n a t e t h e n t h e r e s n o p o i n t i n m a k i n g
it other than curiosity.
If it has a much lower density than Hg-fulminate then it m ay have uses in avoiding detection...
JimmyJones August 30th, 2004, 04:15 PM

Copper Fulminate
It grey ppt with green ish tinge ; expl violently on heating to ca 205 or on im pact; stable in the dry state but oxidizes in
p r e s e n c e o f m oisture; insol in w; heat of expln 508cal/g; less sensitive to im pact than Hg or cd fulm inates. W a s p r e p a r e d b y
W ohler & Martin by shaking Ag fulminate with C u am a l g a m in water, in hydrogen atm. It was used in detonators for gaseous
coal mines.
delta_acrylate August 31st, 2004, 06:43 PM

Xeo,
Have you tried C o p p e r ( I I ) A z i d e ?
Acco rding to the Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry Vol. 1 page 1022, it is 6 times stronger then Pb(N3)2 (Lead
Azide) and 450 tim es stronger then mercury fulminate when use d a s a d e t o n a t o r .
It is harm less when m oist, quite sensitive to rubbing wh en dry or m oistened with ether. Ex p l o d e s w h e n p l a c e d i n a f l a m e .
A so lution of 5 gram s of copper nitrate ( C u ( N O 3 ) 2 * 3 H 2 O ) i n 2 0 0 m l of water is treated in the cold with 50 ml of a solution
c o n t a i n i n g 2 . 5 g r a m s o f s o d i u m azide. The resultant precipitate is suction filtered and washed several times with cold water.
The wet prod uct is left to stand 24 hrs in 50 m l solution of a 2% hydrazoic acid (C AREFULL POISON!!!), suction filtered and
washed with alcohol, and dried at room tem perature.
Properties:
Black-brown powder, opaque crystal ne edles. Very sparingly soluble in wa ter and organic solvnets. Readily soluble in acids, a n d
a m monia.
xeophist S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2004, 06:50 PM

I haven't trie d copper azide yet, but I've read that som e ridiculous (0,004g) amounts can set off P ETN. This fact m a k e s t h i s
prim ary attra ctive, thanks for the advice. I'll look around for sodium azide and hydrazoic acid as I do not have these among
m y reagents.
The_Rsert S e p t e m b e r 2 4th, 2004, 04:04 PM

Maybe you can make Copper Fulminate with Sodium Fulminate and Copper Chloride.
2NaCNO + CuCl2 --> Cu(C NO)2 + 2 NaCl
But I don't know how to get/m a k e s o m e NaC NO.
M a y b e u s e N a O H or NaNO3 instead of HG in the Mercury Fulminate synth.
A.Scriabin Novem ber 27th, 2006, 05:42 AM

This is my video that shows copper fulm inate : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_osT-qmKcb8
Acrolein D e c e m ber 18th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Could you please specify on the synthesis of hydrazoic acid, because I searched the forum for a half hour and Google for
t h r e e . J u s t a d d i n g w a t e r t o s o d i u m a z i d e m a k e s m e skeptical...
in_flames January 6th, 2007, 09:01 PM

Acco rding to wikipedia in the hydrazoic acid article:
"The acid is form e d b y acidification of an azide salt, usually sodium azide, or by adding water (which has a lower yie ld).
T h e p u r e a c i d m a y b e o b t a i n e d by fractional distillation as a colorless liquid of very unpleasant smell, boiling at ~30 C ., and
extrem e l y e x p l o s i v e . "
I hope this h elps.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > "concentrated" peroxide
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FUTI August 30th, 2004, 02:10 PM

I want to ask you all, can urea-hydrogen-perox ide aduct (crystaline com p u n d ) b e u s e d i n s o m e wa y to m a k e s o m e e x p l o s i v e
or better propelant combination with som e fuel compound. :cool: It supp o s e d l y s h o u l d b e s a f e e n o g h f o r h andling, but does it
"kill" its posible effect as oxidator. :confused: Thanks to all of you guys. :D I did find a thread about it in a forum but only
related to its synthesis little of this particular use I'm thinking...only those that I already know. Funny it seem s that teeth-
whitener contain this thing. If this mak es no use well it was just an idea...I'm e a n i t h a s h i g h e r d e n s i t y t h a n H 2 O 2 a n d m a y b e
that can improve the effect :)
K9 August 30th, 2004, 02:25 PM

I can't see it's use as an oxidizer in a m ixture with a fuel. But I assum e the reason it's used in toothpaste is that upon
d e c o m p o s i t i o n , H 2 O 2 is form ed (as well as urea).
FUTI August 31st, 2004, 06:46 AM

Yes but if you take a look at the density of the compound it is h igher than 90% H2O2 and it m a k e s a b o u t 3 6 % H 2 O 2 b y
c o m p o s i t i o n a t s o m e around 25% higher density...m a y b e i t c a n b e u s e d s o m e h o w ? I d o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t g e n e r a t e s H 2 O 2 o n
decomposition that I want to exploit (decomposition temperature that I want to expoit is approxim atelly 80C) that compound
c o u l d m a y b e b e s o m e kind of solid 45% H2O2 solution (highly hypotetical but...)
FUTI October 22nd, 2004, 11:29 AM

I saw in one of the th reads few weeks ago at this forum that in UK (or it was EU) som e kind of a ban for a dental product with
high peroxide content (whiteener etc.). Does th is answer mine question? Is anyone researched this problem more thoroughly?
I didn't so fa r it was just a mo ment of lucidity:)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Ferrates o f any pyrotechnic use ??
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I h a p p e n e d t o r e a d i n a c h e m istry boo k about ferrate. More precisely Potassion Ferrate K2Fe04. Cite:
"Pouring Fe chips into m olten KNO3 leads to glowing and oxidation. From the aqu a t i o u s s o l u t i o n , t h e d e e p r e d K 2 F e O 4 c a n b e
isolated.
Ferrates are even stronger oxidizers than perm a n g a n a t e s . "
Has anybody experience with that stuff? Beeing stronger oxidizer than KMn04 sounds good!
KMnO 4 + glycerol does not ignite as fast as I would like , even when KMnO 4 is powdered. But m aybe a ferrate - glycerol mix ??
?
K 2 F e O 4 s e e m s t o b e q u i t e e a s y t o p r o duce from com m o n c h e m i c a l s : )
Bugger S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2004, 11:26 PM

Ferrate(VI) is an oxid ant of sim ilar strength to perm a n g a n a t e ( V I I ) , a n d c a n b e p r e p a r e d o n t h e s m a l l l a b o r a t o r y s c a l e i n t h e
s a m e ways, e.g. oxidation of aqueous solutions of Fe or Mn salts with alkaline hypochlorite or Cl2, or with alkaline Na or K
plum bate(IV) or bism uthate(V).
It has similar uses to permanganate, e.g. in water purification, but it is m ore difficult to crystallize as a stable solid. I would
think that a hom e-m a d e e x p l o s i v e c o u l d b e m ade with it in the sam e way, m i x e d with sucrose or glycerol.
Its intense reddish-purple color, like permanga nate, is due to a charge-transfer band with the absorption m a x i m u m b e i n g
slightly above the m iddle of the visible spectrum ; that of permanganate (less reddish) is nearer the m iddle of the visible
spectrum. But unlike perm a n g a n a t e , t h e r e i s s o m e contribution from transitions of the two rem aining 3d electrons. It interferes
with the colorim etric method o f analysing for Mn by oxidation to perm a n g a n a t e .
Bugger
simply RED S e p t e m b e r 1 9th, 2004, 01:50 PM

Fera tes shou ld burn with Al po wder sim ilar to th erm ite (only faster). Someone tested it?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Making acetylene gas
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evilgecko Novem ber 11th, 2004, 04:42 AM

I was just thinking ab out how to make acetylen e gas. I know that calcium carbide reacts with water to form acetylene gas, but
what if you can't obtain it. Make it. I heard som ewhere that if you heat calcium oxide (quicklime) with coke (I'm guessing yo u
could replace this with ground up charcoal) it produces calcium carbide. And if you dont have any quicklim e, then you could
therm ally decom p o s e calcium carbonate (limestone) by heating it strongly with a bit of charcoal to help it on its way. C o u l d a
possible source of calcium carbonate b e chalk, or can you buy it in a place like a garden store?. The calcium carbide could then
be reacted to form acetylene gas, which could be used from m a k i n g a c e t y l e n e b o m bs to silver acetylene. O nly problem is that
I've never tried this. Has anyone got som e advice on th is m ethod? And don't say just get it from a gas welder cause I ain't got
one.
Thanks. :cool:
metafractal D e c e m ber 10th, 2004, 08:49 AM

C o c a i n e R OCKS, have you tried this m ethod of producing acetylene gas practically? I find that chem icals usually work better
than insults in alkyne reaction s, but I could be wrong.
Moving on... I think that unfortunately this reaction (quicklim e and coke) is one suited to an industrial scale, requiring hot
furnaces, lon g durations and other con ditions h ard to re plicate in a lab. Unfortunately, hydrocarbons tend to be difficult to
p r o d u c e o n a s m all scale. W hilst possible, you would be better spending your time finding a source of calcium carbide or
p r e s s u r i z e d a c e t y l e n e g a s . T o s t a t e t h e o b v i o u s , a c e t y l e n e c a n b e b o u g h t f r o m a welding supply.
zerok D e c e m ber 10th, 2004, 11:57 AM

Carbid can be made with quicklime and coke. You just need an arc furnace :( see : http://arcmelt.velp.info
Buying this is cheaper and easier.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > potassium picrate from potassium
salicylate
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Hello! :)
Is it possible to obtain potassium picrate from p o t a s s i u m salicylate by a direct nitration? Or I have to m ake picric acid first?
:con f u s e d :
Potassium salicylate will be easily prod ucible. :D
Thank you! :)
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 13th, 2004, 04:06 PM

And where's the potassium go ing to co m e f r o m ? :rolleyes:

O o p s , I m e a n t p o t a s s i u m - and not sodium salicylate. Now it's corrected. Sorry!
I thought that m ixing sulphuric acid and potassium salicylate would relea se salysillc acid. Nitrating the salysillc acid would
produce picric acid which is stronger than sulphuric acid. So I thought that's will form potassium picrate.
Are you understanding m y ide a?
Sarevok D e c e m ber 15th, 2004, 09:57 PM

"picric acid which is stronger than sulphuric acid."
Picric acid is NO T stronger than sulfuric acid! Sulfuric is many times stronger.
If you want potassium picrate, you can neutralize picric acid with KOH. If you want it from potassium salicylate, I can't help you.
It m a y b e p o s s i b l e , p erhaps. Test what you said.

OK, I see.
This is im possible by this way. :(
But this was just a little (stupid) question ;)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Products of recrystallising AP with other explosives?
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Hello,
Yesterday, I had the idea to recristallize RDX and AP with acetone to get a product which has optimal primary explosive properties. But I failed to make RDX. :rolleyes:
-So, I dissolved one teaspoon pressed AP and two teaspoons of mannitol hexanitrate (very low density) instead of the RDX in some acetone.
-I filtered the solution and dropped the filtrate in 150 ml destilled ice cold water.
-I filtered the precipitated product and dried it in a desiccator.
-Finaly, I pulverised it carefully to a very fine powder (like meal).
When lighted, little amounts of the final product will explode with a loud crack with and -very- little flame can be observed.
It leaves a very little residuum of a waxy brown mass (probably residuums of the MHN :( ).
If little amounts of it are ignited by a hammer, it will detonate violently without residuums.
It seems to be much more powerful and less sensitive than normal AP :) :) :)

And it seems to be a very good primary explosive.
Has anyone ideas or information about the recristallising of explosives other than the above-metioned once together to get an smilar or better product?

Stop apologizing for your 'bad english'. That's a rule violation and highly probable to get you deleted.

OK, sorry! I will edit it now!

A similar secondary/primary mix is mentioned in passing on page 238 of COPAE:
'A mixture of nitromannite and tetracene is a powerful and brisant primary explosive which detonates from moderate heat.'
Mixing with AP could be the easy route when a more powerful primary is required, such as detonating large boosters for stubbon AN comps.

The final product will explode with an loud crack in little ammounts with a -very- little flame if lighted.It leaves a very little residuum of an wax like brown mass (probably
residuums of the MHN It will detonate very little ammounts, if it's ignited by a hammer. Than, it leaves no residuum
I think the reason you have the brown residue lef t when you light it by flame and you dont have it when you hit it with a hammer is because the MHN is not fully
detonating, because it is somewhat less sensitive than the AP. which is a good thing if you ask me. This would mean to achieve full detonation this explosive would
require a blasting cap. That s how I see it.
Mixing AP with other explosives dose not sound like too much fun to me. But I am intrigued by youre studies. Will you be conducting tests on the stability and life
expectancy with this explosive?
me234 December 14th, 2004, 01:15 AM

I'm with Joey on this. Many factors affect the products of decomposition of an explosive: decomp. temp; density of reactant; method of decomposition.
I think it was in Urbanski where I saw two different mechanisms of decomposition for methyl nitrate, one for electrically initiated decomposition, and one for temperature
induced (IIRC) decomposition. Different mechanisms tend to yield different products.
So obviously if you radically alter your method of initiation from percussion to heat, you will get different mechanisms of decomposition.
What might have happened is that in explosive decomposition, more energy is released, allowing for the products to be fairly close to elemental (witness nitrogen) or as is
what usually occurs, the products are oxides.
But with a lower energy form of initiation, e.g. thermal, the lack of energy does not allow for the products to be so highly reduced. So instead of CO or CO2, what you may get
instead is carbon chains for products. One such chain may be responsible for your observed brown residue.

I think the reason you have the brown residue lef t when you light it by flame and you dont have it when you hit it with a hammer is because the MHN is not fully
detonating, because it is somewhat less sensitive than the AP. which is a good thing if you ask me. This would mean to achieve full detonation this explosive would
require a blasting cap. That s how I see it.
I think that when it's used in a pipe (detonator or blastig cap) it will completely detonate, because the AP will initate the MHN automatically due to the pressure and the heat.
And if not, I believe that you can initiate it in a tube by a simple flash powder or very little amounts of other primary explosives.
One note: Small amounts of AP will produce huge flames without a crack when it's lighted openly. My product will produce little flames and a crack under the same conditions.
:)
Boomer December 14th, 2004, 10:33 AM

I am using that exact mix for years in my caps, as an intermediate layer between AP and MHN, to be able to use even less AP per cap. Very reliable and quite storage stable
(6+ month). DONT USE HMTD THOUGH!!!
I have not tried it pure (without AP on top), and I always press pure MHN in as a base charge first. I hate the idea to press something with AP in a vice at 10000 PSI :D
The co-precipitation of the two is new, and probably a good idea. Spares you the separate grinding of the AP, and the diapering later. Did you try different ratios, confined, to
see how much AP content is needed for a reliable det?
EDIT:
Just read you last post, it appeared the moment I posted mine.
The cracks are probably from AP crystals (or drops already) getting trapped in the melting MHN. Similar to AP putty which has a much smaller DDT mass than pure AP, with the
crystals trapped in the NC matrix.

No, I have never tested different ratios. At the time I have only 10g MHN and about 10g Mannitol at home. So I have not enough MHN to make more of the tests in a bigger
scale.
But first I will test this with RDX, CTMTNA and dinitronapthalene instead of the MHN.
Possible improvements:
-Add some ammonium nitrate and ice to the water to get lower temperatures.
-Use more solvent for the explosives than needed.
-Add the soloution of the explosives slowly to the ice cold destilled water.
-Stir like a hurricane.

I have just made some pics and a video of the explosion and the residuums:
http://members.fortunecity.de/potatoguns/recristall.html
It seems to burn much times faster than AP.

It don't makes a huge flame like AP.
(see the Video)

I made a new test.
I mixed 2g AP with 2g CTMTNA and dissolved that in 50ml Acetone.
I filtered the solution. I dumped the filtrate into cold destilled water.
I filtered again. The filtrate is useless. The fine product in the filter is drying now in a desiccator.
The product looks like fine nitrated starch.

It will burn with a huge (not huge than ormal AP) dark-yellow near orange flame and it let some little oily liquid brown residuums, but not 100% dry now and it's definitly much
better than normal AP.
It seems to not so good as the MHN/AP co-precipation.
You can see some pics here: http://members.fortunecity.de/potatoguns/recristall.html

There are a few references in the literature which support the idea
of using trimeric AP in mixed compositons .
GB620498 Describes the mixture of 1 part TCAP with 3 parts AN as

being at least as powerful as TNT . However , in the plate tests the
TNT comparable ratio is described as being 1 part TCAP to 2 parts AN .
But what is more interesting is that the TCAP when present in small
percentages in a composition , appears to act as a detonation catalyst ,
which can double the sensitivity to initiation , and increases the brisance
of the composition where the TCAP is present in a small percentage as
5% to 7% to 10% , in combination with TNT . The test results reported
show that a small percentage of TCAP increases the volume obtained in
the Trauzl test by 16% , for compositions where the impact sensitivity
is at the same time increased to an extent that only half the drop height
for the 2 Kg hammer produces detonations for the mixed compositions .
US4196026 Describes the usefulness of organic peroxides as detonation

catalysts , which adds further support to the idea of using TCAP in mixed
compositions . Evidently the contribution of the TCAP is most significant as a
sensitizer and catalyst improving the output of the larger proportion of
other material which constitutes the main charge .
PATR reports compatability of TCAP with PA , TNT , RDX , PETN , tetryl , KClO3 ,
AN , in 40 day tests which showed no decomposition of the mixtures , but
complete volatization of the TCAP from the mixtures . Also PATR reported
that mixtures of TCAP with PA or RDX produced explosives of high power and
high velocity , less sensitive than ordinary primary explosives , but no
details were given other than French patent 893941 and ChemAbstract 47 ,
8374 .
My own experiments have shown that picric acid can be detonated completely
by AP . I secured the complete detonation of 1.5 grams of picric acid by 1.75 grams
of TCAP lightly pressed at a column diameter of 9.5 mm , when a .25 gram
ball of AP putty was used as the " first fire " atop the pressed AP . I believe that
this was close to a threshold condition for successful detonation . Further experiments
are intended to investigate if the sensitivity of crystalline picric acid
can be improved by dampening with a saturated AP solution in toluene and
allowing the solvent to evaporate so that AP is deposited as a residue and
the resulting composition contains 5% - 10% TCAP . Another possibility is to
make a paste of the picric acid with some warm alcohol , to partially dissolve
the PA , then stir together with the toluene / TCAP portion to co-crystallize as
the solvent evaporates . Some percentage of powdered KClO3 or NH4ClO3
added to the slurry could increase the sensitivity of the resulting dried
composition further .
US1533798 Describes that such additions of an oxidizer can improve both

the sensitivity and performance of both base charges and initiators .
These experiments may lead to a formulation and method of preparation for

AP / picric acid based detonator compositions which would be very simple
in terms of OTC attainable materials for compound detonators .
There is another strategy for loading the charge in a compound detonator

which can be used to enhance the effect of the materials being used .
The loading strategy may be useful for improving the performance of
firing trains which are otherwise challenged to work well because of
marginal materials used as initiators . No experiments have been done
by me to observe if this strategy of alternating " layer loading " is of
any benefit . This is a method which may have usefulness or interest
for experimentation .
GB373516 Describes the potential usefulness of " layer loading " the
primary explosive and secondary explosive components in a detonator
for improved performance .
I believe that this is an interesting area for experimentation with TCAP

containing mixtures and firing trains , to reveal what techniques and
mixtures and conditions must be used to secure reliable functioning of
devices employing TCAP as a component . The scope of the possible
usefulness of TCAP in such possible " higher art " applications , even
limited as they may be by storage considerations , has never really
been extensively described , either in this forum or in the existing
technical literature . So there remains a lot yet to be learned and
reported about the potential usefulness of advanced TCAP compositions
and methods .
Boomer February 17th, 2005, 02:46 PM

I would ba careful with all such mixtures. If you use AP to sensitize a base charge, this implies mixing a considerable amount of AP with even more of something, this
something being capable of detonating should the AP go off during mixing. Evaporating the solvent would make me especially nervous, I would rather mix in finely blended
(with water) AP moistened with a non-solvent.
Though I have used something like this: in all my compound caps I use an intermediate layer of primary+base charge between the two, e.g. 2g MHN, 1/2g of 50/50 MHN/AP,
plus 1/2g AP on top. They never failed, while a 1.5g picric acid cap without this intermediate, with 0.75g AP on top in a 1/4" ID cardboard pipe failed completely, only the AP
went off.

I would ba careful with all such mixtures. If you use AP to sensitize a base charge, this implies mixing a considerable amount of AP with even more of something, this
something being capable of detonating should the AP go off during mixing.No , actually not . I already did a preliminary experiment mixing dry picric acid and dry AP then
wetting the mixture with a saturated AP in toluene solution and mixing together the composition which was then dried to a composition containing 27% AP and 73% PA .
Loaded incrementally , 2.2 grams of the mixture was topped with 1.5 grams of AP also loaded and pressed in .25 gram portions , then covered with a top charge of .5 grams
loose AP . The test charge was fired and the AP/PA base charge failed to detonate completely . From this it was clear that 27% of AP in such a composition was way in excess
of the amount which may have a beneficial effect and was functioning as a diluent instead of a catalyst . If 2 grams of AP set off in an enclosed capsule failed to detonate the
picric acid deliberately , there wouldn't be much risk
of setting off the mixture accidentally , simply based upon the presence of a catalytic amount of TCAP being present or mixed with the PA . Evaporating the solvent would
make me especially nervous, I would rather mix in finely blended (with water) AP moistened with a non-solvent.Water would not provide the cosolvent effect needed for
intimate coating and mixing of
the materials . I am sure you are overestimating the danger of such mixtures .
Though I have used something like this: in all my compound caps I use an intermediate layer of primary+base charge between the two, e.g. 2g MHN, 1/2g of 50/50 MHN/AP,
plus 1/2g AP on top. They never failed, while a 1.5g picric acid cap without this intermediate, with 0.75g AP on top in a 1/4" ID cardboard pipe failed completely, only the AP
went off.Yes that makes perfect sense , given that it is a challenge for picric acid to be detonated
even at a 9.5mm ( 3/8 " ) column diameter by an AP initiator .
That is precisely why some special mixtures and techniques
are required for utilizing PA with an AP initiator in any detonators
of conservative diameter . Without special handling , 1/2 " column diameter is
going to be a more likely working minimum for reliable detonators using AP as
the initiator for PA . The only success which I have had so far at 9.5 mm diameter
was using a ball of AP putty to hot start the compressed AP , and use a lot of it ,
1.75 grams of AP , to be precise . Obviously, there is room for improvement .
PA is a secondary which requires a very solid impulse to intitate , but when it
does high order detonate , it does a very good job . 2.5 grams of PA going
high order will fully detonate urea nitrate . It is good to know what conditions
are needed to secure the reliable detonation of PA by an AP initiator , because
of the OTC availability of the precursors , and the potential high performance
which may be delivered in spite of the low technical complexity of such compositions .
The limitation of what you have to work with can be less significant if you have the knowledge
to make the best use of what you have .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Shock tube detonator
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Child-of-Bodom D e c e m ber 16th, 2004, 08:29 AM

Doing a search around EBW's, I cam e across a website of a company that sells 'shock-tubes'. It se e m s l i k e a nice im proved
detonation system, also for setting of m ultiple charges in a m s tim eline, as detcord. I like the idea of using it as a detonator,
as I am alwa ys looking for even safer ways of detonating.
A sh ock tube is a hollow tube with a thin coating of HE o n the inside.

F o r u s e a s d e t o n a t o r , t h e s h o c k t u b e i s h e a t e d o n o n e s i d e , b y a s i m ple pyrotechnic of electrical charge, and a flow of heat will
propel in the tube. The HE will accelera te this reaction, bringing it finally up to 6500fps.
A typical m ixture used is HMX with 8-10% air float aluminium powder, but I think other HE's can be u s e d a l s o . I f o u n d a
a m ount of 45m g/cm used.
For DIY purposes, the coating of the tube will be the m ost difficult part. The HE intended to use should be fine powder, for an
equal distribution over the inside of the tube. As binder Ethylene/acrylic acid is used, as ethylene vinyl acetate. (US patents 4
6 0 7 5 7 3 ( 1 9 8 6) and 5 317 974 (1994) respectively)
Another option would be to da m p t h e e x p l o s i v e o n t h e i n s i d e o f t h e t u b e , by m a k i n g a s a t u r a t e d s o l u t i o n o f , f o r e x a m ple,
PETN is acetone. in a tube, (not plastic one) ap ply a sm all am ount of acetone, and roll it until all the solvent has evaporated
and the PETN is left e qually distributed over the inside of the tube. Heating an ex plosive over it's boiling point and condensing
it in a tube won't be my favourite hobby...
I have search extensively, and couldn't found anything related to this as detonator on this forum.
Here is a good article: Part on e (http://www.shocktubesystem s.com /sys-tmpl/shocktubetechnologyareview/) and Part two
(http://www.shocktubesystem s.com /sys-tm pl/shocktube technologyareviewpart2/)
There is also a bunch o f p a t e n t s a s r e f e r e n c e s u n d e r t h e 2 n d p a g e , I f e e l n o n e e d to repeat.
Anyone ideas how to m a k e s o mething like this ourselves?
SweNMFan D e c e m ber 16th, 2004, 02:30 PM

It sounds like the Dyno Nobel NONEL system.. I think a im provised version would be hard to make, as the real stuff doesn't
burst the plastic tube it is in.. I've seen people holding the Nonel tube when "lighting" it .. I wouldn't do that with a improvised
one..
Child-of-Bodom D e c e m ber 21st, 2004 , 09:42 AM

Indeed, it is the NONEL system.
RISI actually sells a system which you can connect to your EBW box, it is a system you can re-use, it is connected to the end of
the shock-tube. The arc will probably ignite the shock tube.
Is their anything known about other types of ignition, is it also p ossible with a fuse, or is something like a pulse very
nessesary?
hereno D e c e m ber 21st, 2004 , 08:07 PM

or is som ething like a pulse very nessesary?
Yes, it is. Typically a shotshell prim er is used to initiate them , this could be m ade easily, though the tube itself would be very
hard. I cant see why anyoune would use an electrical pu lse, since the whole point of using NONEL is to get rid of the electrics.
NONEL = non -electric!
Child-of-Bodom D e c e m ber 22nd, 2004, 08:18 AM

Because I lik e electro nics, and I just could hook it up to m y EBW system .
Just a single electrolyte cap would do the trick, just shorten a nice NiCr wire, and there is your pulse.
Typically a shotshell prim er is used to initiate them , t h i s c o u l d b e m a d e e a s i l y
? ? T o s e t o f a s h o t s h e l l y o u n e e d t o m ake a complete setup with a weight which set of the shotshell prim er :confused: That is
not very easy in my eyes...
Since it seem s t o b e t h a t n o o n e h a s m a d e a h o m e i m proved shock-tube here before, I would like to give it a try. I will start
from MHN, and a drinking stra w. For HMX + 10% alu 45m g/cm is given, so I will try to get around the sam e a m o u n t i n t h e
tube.
The straw has a ID of 4m m, a nd a length of 5 cm m eans an effective surface of 6.3cm , m e a n s ~ 2 8 0 m g . T h i s a m o u n t n e e d s
t o b e d i s s o l v e d i n a a s s m all as possible volum e of hot EtO H, whereof the proper amount will be applied to the straw, which is
turning around.
The main question is although, is evaporated HE good enough, of do you need to damp it on the inside, under reduced
pressure???
FrankRizzo Decem ber 22nd, 2004, 07:53 PM

Nah, it's not very involved at all. No caps to charge, no batteries to worry about, just sim p l e m echanical force. You put the
shock tube into the hole in the bottom of the little metal gizm o, load a primer into the pocket, and then turn the handle to
r e l e a s e a s p r i n g - l o a d e d h a m mer. Sim ple. It could be im provised using the guts from a retractable BIC pen if necessary.
amagroup August 5th, 2006, 04:58 AM

Insted of HMX - AL, a technology using PETN - AL is more easy but the drawback is, the coating of mixture has to be inspected
visually.
Does anybody have idea,how to ensure the coating by instrum e n t a l m e t h o d s
Don't quote whole posts, or you'll be banned

FullMetalJacket August 11th, 2006, 04:54 AM
S o m ebody... I forget who, on TotseBB a while ago had som e success with this. I'll ask around.
Crazy Swede August 24th, 2006, 07:09 AM

The secret of the Sho ck Tube system is that the plastic tube has a special inner layer that attracts the HMX/Al-m ixture statically
so it sticks to the inner surface.
If using a tube without this property there is a great risk of getting too thin layers at som e parts while forming bigger am ounts
o f e x p l o s i v e d u s t a t b e n d s a n d e n d s o f the tub e, which could lead to im proper an d e v e n d a n g e r o u s b e h a v i o u r w h e n ignited.
It is actually not nece ssary to use explosives at all. I know peop le who experim ented with finely ground cinnam on a n d
achieved reproducable dust explosions and shock waves through the tube!
Diabolique August 26th, 2006, 12:07 AM

S o m ething relate that m ay be useful is a slapp er detonator. The EBW is used to accellerate an alum inum foil to hypervelocity
through a short tube ( <1 m m ) into a PETN base charge. It is used where reliability and high temperature resistance is needed.
For the aluminum in the shock tube, try pyroalum inum or aluminum black. A lot finer than flake. It is also som e t i m e s r e f e r e d
t o a s s u b - m icron aluminum.
If you are good working with glass, you may try m aking a high voltage discharge shock tube. You will have to fuse the glass to
a copper sleave that acts as the ground, and a thorium oxide co ated wire em itter at the sealed end of the tube abo ut 1 cm
a w a y . W i t h e n o u g h e n ergy, this should generate a shock wave down the tube that can initiate PETN. I know it was ex p e r i m e n t e d
with, but they found the slapper detonators to be better.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Diethyl Ke t o n e P e r o x i d e
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anachy D e c e m ber 18th, 2004, 12:00 PM

There is Acetone (Dim e t h y l k e t o n e ) P e r o x i d e ,
There is Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide,
W hat of Diethyl Ketone Peroxide.
I t h a s t o b e m ore sta ble, but does it p osess any explosive properties and how can I m ake it?
kingspaz D e c e m ber 18th, 2004, 10:52 PM

W hy are you so sure its more stable? You haven't m ade it!
Preparation will be m ore difficult than with AP since diethyl keton e is not very solu ble in water.

DiEK is highly unstable.
So unstable, in fact, that this newbie blew himself into HED by posting this as a first question.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Interesting "explosive" reaction?
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c0deblue D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 03:08 AM

W hile researching the clinical and biophysical aspects of Sodium Thiosulphate Na2S2O3 (photographers "hypo") as a CN
antidote, I cam e acro ss this tidbit I'd never seen m e n t i o n e d b e f o r e :
3.3.10 Incom patibility
Inco mpatibility with iodine, acids, lead, m ercury and silver salts (Windholz, 1983) and with salts of heavy m etals, oxidizing
a g e n t s , a n d a c i d s h a s b e e n i n d i c a t e d . I f s o d i u m thiosulfate is triturated with chlorates, nitrates, or perm a n g a n a t e s , a n
e x p l o s i o n m ay occur (Martindale, 1989).
No definitive inform ation here, but the stateme nt raises som e interesting questions. Granted there are m any substances that
c a n e x p l o d e w h e n c o m bined or ground together in a m ortar (chlorates and sulphur being one of m ost notorious com binations),
but what is it about com mon hypo that will trigger an en ergetic reaction with nitrates and p erm anganates? Just how energetic is
this sort of reaction likely to be, and m ore im portantly, can it be exploite d s o m ewhere in an explosive train , e v e n a s a n a u t o -
igniter, or is the reaction merely a low-energy "novelty" that m erits a warning to lab personnel but has no p ractical application?
cyclonite4 D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 09:10 AM

I guess the only way to find out is to.... find ou t... by trying it :p
Of course thats obvious :rolleyes:
For safety reasons, only try a sam ple of a few grams of the m ix.
I would do it myself, but i lack Na2S2O 3.
W ould this reaction occur with all thiosulfates, or is it only with certain thiosulfates (say, the alkali metals).
Maybe if it proves powerful enough it could have certain applications in expedient devices.

It's because of the sulfur im purities reacting with the chlorate. Nothing astonding.
As for nitrate s, it's likely along the line s of a gunpowder reaction , with an oxidizer/fuel com b o b e i n g l o c a l l y h e a t e d b y
compression/friction.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Acetone Peroxide Malfunction(?)
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Nope D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 02:03 PM

T o d a y , I d e c i d e d t o m a k e s o m e A P . I u s e d t h e m ethod I saw in the "AP Begginer's m a n u a l " ( p d f ) . T h e m e t h o d s a y s t h a t y o u
can add the acid to the previously cooled acetone and then the HP in small portio ns because it's easy to co ntrol the raction...
(I used 95-97% Sulfuric) So, I add the acid to the acetone and in ~5 minutes (in the ice bath) it started to changing color.
Finally, it turned to yellow-orange color. After that, I add a small portion of HP (%30); it began fizzing and its color turned to
orange - red! (Shit? :p )
All I want to know is wtf was that. :confused:
Also, could it be possible to m i x t h e a c i d s a n d t h e n a d d the acetone or it'll screw up the reaction?
Thnx 4 your tim e
The_Rsert D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 02:21 PM

Maybe it was (diiso)propyl ether!?
This would be no problem , because propyl ether will from AP in contact with air and H2O2. And the fizzing is m a y b e
decomposing H2O2 (Because of the partial heat). But I can't explain why the clou r change d red.
H a v e y o u u s e d o u r e a c e t o n e o r n a i l r e m over?
W as acid boiled battery acid o r a bought one?
W a s H 2 O 2 bleach for clothes (contains for exam ple perbromates, percarbonats), a cleaning agent (contains for exa m p l e
tensides) or pure H2O2?
...
W hen the bleach contains percabonate, the fizzes are o nly harm less C O 2 b u b b l e s .
...

* Acetone was pure.
* Sulfuric acid (>95%) was purchased.
* (Today I bought, ) Perhyrdo l ( 3 0 % H 2 O 2 )
After It turne d red I threw it away... I thought it'll be useless.. :P

Then, just mix the acid and the H2O 2 first together.
This schould work.
But can't explain the changing of the colour.
????

Hm ... ok.
About the color.. I'm not a chem ist... :P
I think i've noticed this color change when I first make AP. I had m i x e d a c e t o n e a n d t h e H P a n d t h e n I p o u r e d t h e s u l f u r i c . . . : P
A lot of heat produced and I noticed this orange-red color.. Dunno :P

You'd better check this thread "Holy grail organ ic peroxide! "... it says som ething about th e colour...

Yes, I know the threa d by heart.
But usually a cetone will not be so deco m p o s e d b y s u l p h uric acid when it's cooled. Use lower concen trated/thinned H2SO4
(40%). Mayb e it will work better. But why it does fizz?
PS: Next time use the "Edit" function, if you want to add som ething to yo ur last m e s s a g e .

I wish I was a chem ist to give you the answer.. :)
Anyway, thnx.
trinitride3 D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 08:32 PM

I h a d t h e s a m e t h i n g h a p p e n t o m e w h e n I w a s m a k i n g H M T D u sing hydrochloric instead of citric acid. I left garage a few
m inutes after the last addition of acid only to return 10 minutes later to a violent reaction, to violent for m e to get close
e n o u g h t o d u m p it in water. I got away and let it run its course, when it was safe to return I noticed that the heat caused my
brand new m ercury th erm ometer to shatter. W hat gives?
Rosco Bodine D e c e m ber 30th, 2004, 03:50 AM

Classic order of addition problem s .
For AP chill your acetone and peroxide separately and then pour
the cold acetone into the cold peroxide and stir . Add part of the
acid with stirring and cooling o bserving for tem perature rise between
added portions of acid , only adding m ore acid each tim e when the
t e m p e r a t u r e o f t h e m ixture drops down again after each addition .
Usually this will require 3 portions . Keeo the m ixture ice cold for two days .
For HMTD , d i s s o l v e t h e h e x a m ine in the cold peroxide and if the solution

warms slightly cool it back down as cold as possible before beginning
the addition of any acid . Add the acid to the cold hexam i n e a n d p e r o x i d e
solution , in sm all portions with stirring , allowing to cool between added
portions . Then keep the reaction mixture very cold for 3 days in
the freezer . Patience and correct proportions are essential for good results .

Keeo the mixture ice cold for two days .
W ell... Yesterday, I m ade a batch of AP... After the acid addition, I left m y m ixture stand for 8 hrs (out of the ice bath)... All
the m ixture has been converted into a big crystal... Don't you think 2 days are too much?... :p
Rosco Bodine D e c e m ber 30th, 2004, 11:30 PM

W ell it depends on how much acid catalyst you use and how hard you want to drive the reaction . You can do the whole process
in one hour if you want to do that . But generally
it is safer and gives a better yield to go cold and slow .
Chris The Great D e c e m ber 30th, 2004, 11:54 PM

Interesting, I got a deep red colour in a failed attem pt at HMTD (then again, I wasn't really trying :p ). I had m a d e h e x a m i n e
by m i x i n g a m m onium hydroxide and form aldehyde together, and since I was to lazy to boil it down and get the pure
h e x a m ine, a few m onths later I dum p e d i n t h e c o r r e c t a m o u n t o f H 2 O 2 a n d H C l ( a s s u m in g HCl wo uld work just fine). It didn't
work, and I ended up with a beautiful red solution, with a dead bug floating in it after a few days. W as a pretty colour, but no
HMT D.
I love how AP crystals fill up the jar afterwards. Nothing says success like a huge m ound of AP where there once was a sm all
a m ount of liquid :D
Rosco Bodine D e c e m ber 31st, 2004 , 12:53 AM

HCl will work just fine for HMTD , and so will pro bably m any other
acids , but the am ount of acid u s e d m u s t n o t b e in excess of just
t h a t a m o u n t n e e d e d t o n e u t r a l i z e t h e h e x a m in e a n d p o s s i b l y a
little m ore to m ake the pH just slightly acidic , m aybe to pH 6 ,
I never actually checked it with paper . The acid in the HMTD
synthesis is not a catalyst as is the acid in AP synthesis , so
its q uantity is critical because it is an a ctual rea ctant in the
process . Get too m uch acid there and it destroys by hydrolysis
t h e h e x a m ine before it can peroxidize , or it destroys the HMTD as
fast as it form s and either way you get zip for the effort while
bein g sloppy about the quantities .
Chris The Great D e c e m ber 31st, 2004 , 12:58 AM

O p p s , I d u m p e d m a y b e 2 5 0 m L of HCl into it, for a yeild of maybe 65g hexam ine (the form a l d e h y d e a n d a m m onia where
dilute, 25% and 10% respectivly, so th ere was alot of water).
That certainly explain s it. Maybe I should learn a bit about the synthesis before trying it next time :p I always thought that the
process was the sam e as that for AP and the acid was only a catalyst.
The_Rsert D e c e m ber 31st, 2004 , 09:28 AM

W hy you're not using citric acid as cata lyst for HMTD? It's cheaper than HC L. The temperature does not rise extrem ly. The final
product has a grater stability. Citric acid is better avaible than HCL.
...
kingspaz D e c e m ber 31st, 2004 , 02:33 PM

Thank you rosco.
T h e o r i g i n a l i s s u e s e e m s to be resolved. Conc. H2SO4 clearly reacts with acetone!
Rosco, just o ut of curiosity, do you know what the reaction is? I'll be honest, I'm a bit drunk, but I'd be inclined to think its
s o m e sort of dehydra tion producing propylene...but I'm not sure at all!
Chris The Great January 1st, 2005, 04:24 PM

W here can I get citric acid? I used HC l since I picked up 4 litres at the hardware store of $8 Cdn (3 2 % ) . T h e y h a d m a y b e 1 0 o r
so jugs. It's extrem ely available for me. I've seen citric acid in the pharm acy for a couple of bucks for a very sm all vial, I can't
r e m e m ber the size but I think it was around 100g. Is there an e asier pla ce to get it for cheap?
IPN January 3rd, 2005, 01:19 PM

Chris The Great, if it is too expensive to buy you could always purify it from lem on juice.. but I don't see any trouble using the
HCl instead, just m a k e s u r e t h e t e m p stays below 0C. Has always worked for m e. :)
BTW .
King spaz, in the reaction the sulfuric acid dehydrates the acetone into m esitylene, not propylene. :)
http://koti.m bnet.fi/otto2000/acetone_to_m esitylene.gif
kingspaz January 3rd, 2005, 02:32 PM

Cheers IPN. I'll work out why it does th at later :)

A slightly off topic thought, bu t would it not be possible to nitrate that dehydration product? The methyl groups direct ortho/
para and due to their arrangem ent should reinforce each other which sho uld make it *very* easy to nitrate. The only problem I
can see with this would be steric hinderence from the methyl groups but I'm not entirely sure how m uch hinderence a relatively
s m a ll m ethyl group would give...
If possible this com p o u n d w o u l d m a k e an exce llent sen sitising agent for AN, cheddite type explosives and possibly for m a k i n g
c a s t a b l e c h a r g e s d e p e n d i n g o n i t s m elting point.
Chris The Great January 4th, 2005, 07:57 PM

A, lemons. Yes, that is accessable :D
I've never had proble ms with heat and 32% HC l m a k i n g A P , I m ix the acetone and H2O2 (35%) then pour in the HCl and stir it
for a few minutes, then leave it for 48 hours. Heats up to about 40C on a warm d a y ( m a y b e 2 5 C a t the current temperaturs
here right no w), but I have no problem s.
Then, I filter, wash, a nd dissolve in acetone. W hen I ne e d s o m e, I pour som e of the acetone solution into water to get a super
fine precipita te which after being filtered and dried is very stable and packs extrem ely well. Never had a problem , although the
stuff still worries me.
Silentnite January 4th, 2005, 08:17 PM

I u s e d H 2 S O 4 i n m y AP production and it worked fine. No violent reaction , nothing. I kept it chilled in an ice bath, and slowly
added. And it was pretty strong conc. of H2SO4. I'm away from my house, so I'll get back to you. Coincidently, I just found HCl
so I'm going to start using that instead. Good luck.

would it not be possible to nitrate that dehydration prod uct?
Possible, yes. Easy, no. :(

And the yeild of m esitylene from the reaction is usually very low (13-15 pr cent according to orgsyn)..
http://orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep .asp?pre p=cv2p0449 http://orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep .asp?pre p=cv1p0341

Not only that I doubt nitrom esitylene would be an explo sive.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > The best ignition for a fire bottle
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View Full Version : The best ignition for a fire bottle
Ropik January 22nd, 2005, 12:34 PM

Some time ago, I started "The best fire bottle" project in my workshop. Please don't say something like "Fire bottles are kEw L, uneffective and primitive and...". Yes, they have
drawbacks, but everything has them. Fire bottles are cheap, simply made from normal chemicals and reasonably effective on many targets.
OK, let this argumentation aside, there is the problem:
The ignition method should has these qualities:

- simple to construct and operate
- reliable
- made from readily available materials
- it shouldn't give the thrower's position aw ay by big flame or something like that
I tried many manners of ignition, but none of them fits all requirements.
1) Normal "rag ignition" - wasn't tried, too dangerous due the backflash possibility, fire bottles w ith this ignition method can not be stored because the fuel evaporate from them
constantly.
2) Road flare - extremely reliable, but also extremely visible and I have troubles obtaining the flares here.
3) Sparklers - two sparklers taped on opposite sides of the bottle, so far best method, but the burning point of the sparkler must fall in the napalm filler, the sparks don't ignite it
in most cases and this decreases reliability.
4) Comonnly available rocket fuse - tried, but results was worse than with sparklers.
5) Blackmatch - too brittle and weather unreliable.
6) Acid ignition - good, but the "readily available materials" rule is broken due to chlorate required and the acid either displaces part of the fuel, or (when it is in test tubes
outside the bottle) makes handling dangerous.
7) HTH/glycerin(see Anarchist arsenal) - usable, but due to long ignition delay it is unsuitable for attacks on moving targets.
8) Mechanical ignition by matches and spring(see the IMH) - wasn't tried because it complexify the fire bottle construction too much.
Any ideas are appreciated.
Bert January 22nd, 2005, 01:18 PM

1) Normal "rag ignition" - wasn't tried, too dangerous due the backflash possibility, fire bottles w ith this ignition method can not be stored because the fuel evaporate from them
constantly..
You cork or screw cap the liquid filled bottle and tie the rag around the neck. You damp the rag w ith flammable liquid immediately before use. Unless you don't have time, in
which case you've got worse problems than evaporation to woryy about.
The_D uke January 22nd, 2005, 01:30 PM

A small explosive charge fixed to the bottle would work. Even a M-80 or a blasting cap w ill probably work fine.

I tried even this method, but it has three draw backs: you must fiddle around with another bottle of flammable liquid, I throw the bottles like stick hand grenades, thus I must tie
the rag around the body of the bottle, and this burning rag is extremely visible
The_D uke January 22nd, 2005, 01:47 PM

Well then, why not just tape a piece of visco fuse to the bottle. There will still be some flame visible but it will be considerably less than that of a burning rag, and less likely to
give away your position to the enemy.

Uh... The first reply w as for Bert.
According to Expedient hand grenades: "explosive fuse like "cherry bomb" is not fully reliable and may disperse the filler instead of igniting it."
Blasting cap is even less likely to work, it was used in japanese impact ignition fire bottle, some w ere tested by Allies and proved to be unreliable.
Visco was tried("rocket fuse") and it isn't good. The main problem with every normal fuse or sparkler is that the burning point must land directly on the napalm to ignite it.
Sometimes the glass shard with the fuse fall to some other place and the bottle fails to ignite.
Thing to try w ould be the "bengal match" used on Finnish molotovs. Anyone know s the composition used?
Jacks Complete January 22nd, 2005, 09:05 PM

Nice thread!
I agree that a simple but effective fire bottle w ould be a real asset to our arsenal of know ledge.
I don't know w hat HTH/Glycerine is? I assume it is a strong oxidiser, in the manner of the KMnO4/Glycerine ones?
A small mechanical lighter might be a good answer, as it could be based on the breakage of the entire bottle. Strap it tightly around the glass bottle, and it lights (somehow )
when the bottle breaks, and the tension is released.
Impact explosives are generally out, due to risk.
I'll have a think. Something with a fuse to the inside and a lighting system on the outside might be the best way.
Isotoxin January 22nd, 2005, 09:32 PM

I suggest a mechanical fuse as per NBK's idea(although I have seen it in other places as well)
-Easy to make
-Cheap
-Uses common materials
By using match heads inside a thin paper tube with a small match strip w ith a pull cord you w ill be able to keep the bottle somew hat airtight and safe.
http://img171.exs.cx/my.php?loc= img171&image=fbignitor8qi.jpg
Note to NBK: Yes I know its not a gif and I know what you say about gifs. However I can't save gifs on Linux and I adjusted the jpeg to only 10KB so I think its ok as far as
slowing people dow n goes. Edit it out if you find it lacking
Overall Ignitor Assembly

Pull String
Match Head(s)
Friction Ignitor Strip
Cork(or cap) with small hole
Standoff tube(not needed)
An explanation(with theory):
As per the original posters ideas this is easily homemade and should be very reliable and easy to construct. Testing, of course, is a must before use in combat or in the live
firebomb.
From the common small matchbox the strips are removed using a knife and 2 are glued back to back. Before being glued fishing line is folded over itself a few times(to get a
better grip on the glue) and layed inbetw een the 2 strips with the free end(a foot or so) coming out the shorter side(ie the top or bottom) of the 2 strips. The strips are placed
between 2 pieces of wood and a vice is applied untill the glue is dry. Of course other methods could be used.
A paper tube is rolled like when making salute bodies but not so thick so that 2 match heads can fit tight(but not to tight) w ith the 2 strips and string(from now on called the
friction ignitor strip). The tube should be make with the friction ignitor strip at hand so that you only need to do this part once. Have 2 rows of match heads on each side of the
friction strip all the way down the tube. Glue may be used, expecially on the bottom pair to prevent them from falling out. It must be remembered that the bottom pair of
match heads is what will ignight the pyrotechnic mixture so take care that all the match heads w ill transfer their flame to these 2. Tape should be used to make sure the match
heads are kept in firm contact with the friction strip but not so tight as to make pulling it out impossible. When you pull it out quickly the match heads should ignight.
Now let us discuss the 'firebottle'. The gelled fuel is filled about up to the part of the bottle where it(the bottle) starts to converge to the mouth. A standoff of a somewhat
smaller tube is used to keep the ignightor in place. Imagine a tampon with one slightly bigger tube and one slightly smaller tube and how the smaller tube rests on the asorbent
material. The secondary tube should rest on the match heads and the string goes through it out the top. A very small hole is made in the cork(or top) of the bottle and first the
ignitor is placed into the fuel so that about 2/3 is submerged and then the string is threaded through the standoff and then through the cork and the stand off is pulled tight
against the cork and ignitor and the bottle is capped insuring that nothing will come lose in storage and transit. A small amount of slack can be placed in the fishing line within
the standoff tube to add a sort of safety to the device.
Now the question is can the string be pulled, the bottle lit and then be thrown? Or must the thrower use some sort of method to get it to ignite in the air or once it lands?
Possible ideas:
Holding onto the string and throw ing the bottle

Using rubber bands or springs to jerk the string once it lands(or use a spoon for in the air ignition)
Other members may have better ideas
Update + More Notes:
After w riting that I have come to think that firstly the stand off could be done aw ay with if you w ere to simply fill the bottle up more and use the bottom of the cork as the thing
that puts pressure on the ignitor. This is better because it lets you pack more fuel inside and means less parts. HOWEVER:
I think that PERHAPS trying to ignite the fuel w ith the bottle sealed up might be difficult w ithout having some air space in the bottle to add a small bit of oxygen. I don't know if
thats true or not - testing must be done.
To insure compleat air tightness a drop of waterbased glue may be placed on the outside of the cork ontop of the hole the string comes out of. This will form an air tight bond
with the string but let the string slide out as w ell.
Please give me feedback/comments
Skean Dhu January 22nd, 2005, 09:41 PM

What about a M-80 type device that has pyrotechnic stars , mixed in with the main charge?
There are plenty of mixes that are just KNO3, charcoal and Sulfur, or you could canibalize some consumer fireworks assuming you can buy them, many fountains have stars in
them so you w ouldn't have to buy shells necessarily(sp?).
xyz January 22nd, 2005, 10:24 PM

I'd use cannon fuse running down inside the bottle (through a hole in the lid, which is then epoxied to hold the fuse in place) to a about 20 or 30 grams of KNO3/Sugar or similar
incendiary inside a sealed container (so the napalm w on't get to it). Use a container that won't be attacked by the napalm, but w ill be melted by the incendiary and not blown
to pieces. A film cannister comes to mind, but is too big to fit in bottles. I suppose you could make a molotov cocktail using a large glass jar though.
Light it and throw it, it doesn't matter that the fuse w on't light the napalm, because the incendiary on the other end of the fuse sure as hell will.
Use 2 parts KNO3 to 1 part sugar (by weight) as this mixture will easily burn without atmospheric oxygen, allowing it to ignite the napalm even if it's still completely submerged
in it after the bottle has broken.
Please note: The KNO3/Sugar is NOT there to explode and break the bottle, it is there to burn fiercely and ignite the napalm AFTER the bottle has hit the target and broken. It
may be able to break the bottle on it's ow n, but I certainly w ouldn't rely on it.
Ropik January 23rd, 2005, 05:23 AM

Jack's Complete: HTH is calcium hypochlorite. It w orks very similarly to KMnO4 delay.
Mechanical ignition was tried(see the first post) but it kills the main merit of a fire bottle - fast and easy manufacturing.
Isotoxin: There must be some way to ignite it after landing for effective, safe function. When you ignite it before throw, you risk the explosion of gas vapors/air mix in the
bottle.
xyz: This is good, but it has the same problem like any delay - when you attack something moving, the napalm mostly stick to it, but the delay igniter might fall to the ground
and then you are in trouble. It may be useful if you can make really trusty, short delay to ignite it more or less directly in the moment of landing. Or use it only for "demolition"
bottles, w hich are to be thrown on building, standing cars etc. And about glass jars: they have very good size/capacity ratio, but half-liter liquor bottles are most easily and
accurately thrown - at least for me. Things like quart jar with napalm are too large to grip and too heavy to throw far.
Skean Dhu:I used something like overgrow n M-80(7 grams of flash powder) with coarse aluminium(partly) and it w as very reliable, but you must either obtain aluminium and
similar things, or buy some normal banger, but in time of need for fire bottle, consumer fireworks would be probably banned already. And the delay is unacceptable, because
you must make it long to make really sure that it doesn't go off in your hand. Maybe if you ignite it by a sparkler, w hich would ignite napalm already and the firecracker would
take care of unbroken bottles...
Anthony January 23rd, 2005, 07:48 AM

IMO to be of use, a firebomb must ignite immediately on impact, so fused ignitors wouldn't be very good.
I'm sure the burning rag method is used for a reason - easy and reliable. How about a slight adaption? Attach the end of the rag to the bottom of the cork, or inside the screw
cap. Then simply unscrew of uncork and draw out the ready soaked rag, ignite and throw.
The flame is visible, yes, but so is a liquor bottle flying through the air! Or is the concern that it is visible whilst you are still holding it, and waiting for your target to present
itself?
In which case, can you not simply ignite the rag immediately before throwing? Perhaps a pull-string matchbook ignitor would be useful here.
Actually, have you tried simply taping a matchbook ignitor to the bottle?
Ropik January 23rd, 2005, 09:33 AM

Yes, I tried this igniter, but it will go out in midflight. The most inconvenient thing with the rag ignition is that if the rag doesn't fully plug the mouth of the bottle, the flame can
flash in the bottle and it will probably explode due to gas/air mix inside. I wouldn't rely on something like this.
The "rag under a cork" is suggested in the Black book of arson. IMO, the Harber's "Jar molly" is the only pretty safe example of this method, because the rope has constant
diameter everywhere.
The flame isn't too noticeable at daylight. If you use this ignition at night, THEN it is a problem, because the arc of the bottle reveals the thrower's position with pinpoint
accuracy.
I think that the rag ignition wasn't used because it has many merits. It was used because nothing else w as available at the moment. It's worth noting that none of the armies
that mass-produced fire bottles used this method. The most common was either some form of a "Bengal match" or a strip of film - in times when films were made from
celluloid.
TreverSlyFox January 23rd, 2005, 05:16 PM

The best description I've found of the Finnish Molotov is at http://ww w.ankkurinvarsi.com/jaeger/OTHER_AT_WEAPONS1.htm
It w ould seem that the "best" expediant replacement for the "Bengal Match" would be "Survival Matches" or "NATO Waterproof Matches" as sold at ww w.sportsmansguide.com
Item # AX5A-21053 $6.95 for 50 matches. Though shorter than the Bengal Match they could be "Chained" togeather so one would light the other in sucsession. They burn for 12
seconds so you'ed need to chain 3 togeather for a 30 second burn time. And the Finns used 2 Bengal Matches, one on each side of the bottle, that burned for 60 seconds, too
insure reliable ignition when the bottle smashed. The "Matches" would leave less of a "Signature Trail" to your position than a burning rag w ould.
It's also mentioned that later on in the war they used a "Capsule" of Sulfuric Acid within the bottle to ignite the fuel rather than having to "Lite" the matches. I'm not a
Chemistry Major so I have no idea how the Sulfuric Acid ignited the fuel or how they insured the capsule of Acid would break when the bottle did. I'm sure others here can
explain how the Acid ignites the fuel.
Just food for thought.
nbk2000 January 23rd, 2005, 08:50 PM

How's about putting a metal tube that runs almost the length of the bottle through a cork, w ith the open end being surrounded by a pull fuse match-book igniter, and the central
tube containing a sparkler?
The pull igniter gets the sparkler lit, and the tube protects the bottle contents from the sparkler until it's broken.
Assuming you use a length of copper tubing, one end sealed with a bolt, you should have a bit of time to throw the bottle.
Guarantee it'll ignite once that (hot enough to ignite thermite) sparkler gets exposed. :)
Ropik January 24th, 2005, 05:17 AM

NBK: If I got this idea right, it is supposed to works like: The sparkler burns in the pipe, thus more or less invisible, and w hen the bottle breaks, the napalm gets into the pipe
and ignite. It's rather good idea, but it will probably w ork only with thin napalms, otherwise the filler will not run into the pipe, or it will be too slow. But I w ill try this definitely.
TreverSlyFox: I think they used sulfuric acid/chlorate ignition. I read somewhere that their Molotov fuel has potassium chlorate in it.
TreverSlyFox January 25th, 2005, 05:44 PM

Ropik,
Your right, after much testing the "standard" mix in their factory produced Molotovs became 60% Potassium Chlorate, 32% Coal Tar, and 8% Noulee. Not sure what "Noulee"
is, as a Goggle search doesn't turn up anything on what it is.

Ropik,
Your right, after much testing the "standard" mix in their factory produced Molotovs became 60% Potassium Chlorate, 32% Coal Tar, and 8% Noulee. Not sure what "Noulee"
is, as a Goggle search doesn't turn up anything on what it is.
I suspect that this mix is the "bengal match", not the molotov cocktail itself. What the HELL is nouleee?! Sounds French...
Ropik January 25th, 2005, 11:45 PM

I think that it is some oil fraction to get it all going... May someone w ith access to tar test the mix w ithout the mysterious noulee to see how keen it's to ignition?
I doubt that it's the bengal match - it's probably sticky as hell and the match is in stick form(surprise, isn't it?), unless the noulee is some polymerizer for the tar, of course...
c0deblue January 26th, 2005, 03:51 AM

Expanding on xyz's and NBK's ideas, how about using a glass test tube filled halfw ay with an incendiary material like KNO3-sucrose and the rest of the way with w ax? After
filling the lower half of the tube w ith the incendiary, a piece of visco fuse is inserted and a plastic drinking straw is slipped over the fuse before pouring the hot w ax in place. The
lip of the test tube can be inserted through a plastic "washer" sized so it is held securely betw een the mouth of the bottle and the screw cap, or a tube can be chosen that just
fits the mouth of the bottle without falling in. In this case, two O-rings provide a positive seal and prevent the test tube lip from damage when the cap is screwed down. A pull-
type fuse lighter of the type previously discussed is mounted within the straw and the pull cord is fed through a small hole in the cap leaving an inch or two of slack. A safety
against accidental activation is provided by tying a knot in the cord which must first be yanked through the hole in the plastic cap before tension can be applied to the pull lighter
itself. When the incendiary mixture is ignited, the wax confines the pressure to the lower half of the tube, breaking it and igniting the gelled gas. With a plastic jug and un-gelled
gas, this test tube arrangement might also make a fair FAE if a suitable bursting charge is layered or combined with the incendiary mixture.
Guerilla January 26th, 2005, 10:45 AM

I think that it is some oil fraction to get it all going... May someone w ith access to tar test the mix w ithout the mysterious noulee to see how keen it's to ignition?
I doubt that it's the bengal match.
Yeah it was certainly used as the fuel, a sulfuric capsule was put inside the bottle prior to use. This kind of fire bottle would burn furiously w ith a cloud of black smoke, therefore
even if it didnt set the engine on fire it would temporarily blind the tanks prisms allow ing the use of satchel charges or other AT-devices. As for the noulee, for all I know its
some kind of fuel additive/thickener, one would think it could be substituted with something as simple as sugar. Noulee is a completely unknow n w ord to me too, nevertheless.
Theres one book in the local library that deals with the munitions and their compositions of the era, gotta check if it tells anything.
I dont think many of us, as amateur with limited chemical supply, would waste that much chlorate in one bottle though, unless it would predominantly be used as an incendiary
device with maximum heat output.
If I was to prepare lots of molotovs in short time w ith fairly limited resources, I would propably go for simple gas/tar mix and H2SO4 on the bottoms and the bottles wrapped in
paper bags having some chlorate composition in them.

The gasoline/tar mix is very good, but you must have the tar, which is the main problem for me. I would go for napalm B, as I have nearly unlimited supply of polystyrene,
maybe with some ammonium nitrate and naphthalene added. This mixture gave me the best results so far.
Do you think that the noulee is thickener?? Even without this, the mix of chlorate and tar would be extremely thick, some additional thickener w ould probably result in rubbery
matter, w hich wouldn't stick very well IMO.
BUT - fanfares - I discovered nearly perfect ignition method! It is much more suitable for jars than for bottles, however. There it is: String coated w ith melted sorbitol/KNO3 mix
is w rapped around the lid/jar joint while still pliable and then secured with wire. Take care that the ends of the string aren't touching, otherw ise the burning time will be cut in
half. Cover the string with heavy duty aluminum foil and scotch tape - except one end. You may also embed few matchheads into this end to ease ignition. You are done! The
fuse is almost impossible to extinguish by normal means, the foil and tape shield it further, so the flame isn't visible too much, only smoke. When the jar breaks, the glass
threads break also and the fuse fall into napalm, igniting it instantly. You may adapt this manner of ignition for bottles without much hassle, it only looks less neat. Enjoy!

Uh... The optimal fuse was the w hole time on this forum... It's the Microtek's fuse from silicone, permanganate and sulphur. Wrapped in aluminum foil and tape, it's impossible
to extinguish by throw or w eather, it gives off only very little smoke and a small flame, which is more than enough to ignite the content of the bottle, however. You can tape
this fuse across the lid(if you are using jars), or along the wall of the bottle and all is set. Because of the slow burn rate, reasonably long piece will give you minute or more to
throw the bottle. Sorry about starting this thread. But, I will publish my future discoveries about the fire bottles here. The comparation of napalm additives and their benefits w ill
come in short time.
Tinton June 3rd, 2007, 12:00 AM

I recently read an article explaining how AP is an entropic explosion. (http://w ww.technion.ac.il/~ keinanj/pub/122.pdf) Since it produces so little heat, you could use it as a
bursting charge for liquids, without igniting it (haven't tested it though).
Place an airtight rod of AP in the bottle, and attach a fuse at the top somehow . Then tape a sparkler, road flare, or something to the side. Light the fuse and throw it. When the
AP detonates, it should spray the liquid all over, and the sparkler should ignite it. Creating a classic firebomb, or even a FAE.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Decomposition of Silver Acetylide/D-Salt
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View Full Version : Decomposition of Silver Acetylide/D-Salt
Vinci August 6th, 2005, 02:51 PM

Hello
I red every Silver Acetylide/D-Salt thread I found, but not one of them contained usefull information about the decomposition of Ag2C2*NO3 or pure Ag2C2.
Some references say that it decompose when come in contact with organics. I dont know if it only does in presence of organic when wet or all the time. In fact I never noticed
anything like that but I store it in a little plastic box at the moment.
The second question I have is about its color. My standard batches are done with 5g AgNO3 and 110ml water, but I allways get different looking crystals wich can reach every
thinkable grey tint. (of course they are all dry, so the color isnt just water)
thanks
nitro-genes August 6th, 2005, 10:49 PM

About the stability on storage, PATR mentions it to be unaffected by moisture, light and CO, when made properly...
Mixtures of PETN and Double Salts (1:1) that I once made, did seem to be sensitive to light.
I really like Double Salts because it is very safe to make and has a very high acceleration rate of detonation velocity which makes it despite it's low "power" a very good
initiating explosive for PETN or RDX.
IIRC a mere 0.07 grams is listed for PETN versus 0.02 grams for lead azide!
It is also stated in PATR that it is less sensitive to friction than lead azide and much less toxic. Reasons enough for me to abandon lead azide...
About your coloring of the product... I had the same problem when I made it for the first time, starting from reagent grade AgNO3.
I think the key is keeping the temperature of the AgNO3/water/HNO3 mixture at 80-90 deg. C. while, very slowly bubbeling the C2H2 through it.
Maybe it has something to do with the impurities in the Calcium Carbide I am using. But the Double Salts made in this way are pearl white, can be kept for years in the light
and perform outstanding! :)
Are you starting from silver metal or silver nitrate? And what is the source of your acetylene?
Child-of-Bodom August 21st, 2005, 09:29 PM

I've dried DS with a little EtOH without any problem, don't know about other solvents though. Just test it by adding a few mg of DS to you favourite solvent, leave it in there
for a week, dry it, and if it works it is fine.
For colour change, yes that is normal, the AgNO3 is decomposing to Ag metal anda bit of nitrogen oxides, which oxidises the silver subsequently to blackish stuff. Make it fast,
don't let the solution stand for a long time before you bubble C2H2 through it, and store it in a blinded container.
Nevermore June 12th, 2006, 10:28 AM

i store my DS in freezer in a film container, over a couple years no discolouration has been observed, neither any change in power-sensitivity of the DS. they are inexpensive
and easy to make..
zajcek01 June 18th, 2006, 06:42 PM

I'm storing my Ag2C2 under water for over a year and no color change is noticed and exploseve propertys and sensitivity are still the same.
I did some testing and discovered that it is not compatible with acids.
Diabolique August 26th, 2006, 12:43 AM

I read an article back in the 60's in the Journal of the American Chemical Society of someone making silver acetylide/nitrate in absolute dark. It was photosensitive, and
detonated as soon as it was exposed to light. I no longer have the article, unfortunately.
nbk2000 August 26th, 2006, 04:32 AM

Oh, the utility of a light-initiated explosive bears much thinking about. ;) :D
Cobalt.45 August 26th, 2006, 01:56 PM

Would it be possible to use hexanitrobenzene, either alone or as a primary? There's mention of it being sensitive to light.
Patent #4,262,148.

Can you remember any more specifics about that JACS article, Diabolique? I found a few dozen hits from the 60's but nothing steps out as being the right article.
Zajcek August 27th, 2006, 07:43 PM

Hmmm, my silver acetylide is dark grey. It was made from highly pure AgNO3 which I borrowed from my school lab.
AgNO3 was dissolved in water and acetylene gas was bubbled trough. Dark grey substance precipitated. The reaction took place at 5*C because it was performed outside in
winter.
I'm storing it in water since December 2004 and no color change was observed. I have a small amount of it on a dry place for almost a month and no color change and
explosive properties are the same.
I do not know why is it dark, but it is quite powerful....I hared that it should be white or light grayish, but not dark grey like mine is.
Should I try to make it at higher temperature next time, or should I lower the PH with adding some HNO3, or both to get white precipitate?
Maybe my silver acetylide is pure silver acetylide (Ag2C2) and not double salt like Ag2C2*NO3.
I noticed some white crystals ( lumps ) in the suspension of silver acetylide in water. I picked some of them out of the suspension thinking that they were impurities, dried
them and lit them. They exploded with similar power as the "grey stuff".
nbk2000 August 28th, 2006, 02:35 AM

Silver salts are light-sensitive, hence their use in photography, so your Ag-acetylide would have darkened after exposure to light.
If you had made it in the dark, and stored it in the dark, it might still have been light colored.
Zajcek August 28th, 2006, 09:03 AM
It is stored in a glass container under water in dark. It was made outside, when it was dark and a poor light was used....(40W at distance of 15 m)
It' s interesting that the color had not changed since it is dry on my desk. It is still dark gray colored, not darker, not lighter. I even dried it on the sun and I did not notice any
color change.
I still think that white and gray stuff are completely different substances.
When I will have more time, I will try to experiment more with different light conditions, temperature and acidity and I will post the results here.
Edit:
I corrected some grammar mistakes.
Thanks c.Tech!
Diabolique August 28th, 2006, 06:24 PM

Mega: All I can do to help you on finding the JACS article is that it after 1964, and before 1967. It also was a small filler article. My mother tossed all my journals, as well as a
collection of comics (you wouldn't believe their value today). It also mentioned how hydrogen and chlorine gasses could be mixed in absolute darkness, and detonate under the
influence of light, especially UV. The nearest university that would have JACS that far back is too far away for me to get to.
Cobalt: I do not have any info that I know of on using hexanitrobenzene as a primary explosive or being light sensitive. I'll check Davis and Urbanski later, and keep my eyes
open as I catalog my papers.
With that large an excess oxygen balance, HNB would improve the performance of many other explosives. I would expect it would be somewhat shock sensitive with all those
nitros. There is a computer program that is excellant for predicting such things (as well as 3-D structurem electromagnet fields, crystal form, etc.), but only the big drug and
chemical companies, and national labs, can afford it. I wonder if HNB would improve the initiating and the deflagration-to-detonation properties of lead styphnate.
HNB likely does not see much work done with it due to the resources that are needed to force the additional nitros onto the ring. The Pi-bond resonance of the benzene ring
causes nitro-groups to not like to attach to a benzene ring next to another nitro-group.
I have read a paper on using high intensity laser light to initiate explosives, usually PETN. I'll have to relocate it and reread it, it may be of some help.
Mercury fulminate also shows some light sensitivity, particularly UV light. Keeping it in the dark improves its storage life somewhat. AMPC 706 177 indicates that after a year, it
can become too degraded to use. Exposure to UV light shortens its storage life tremdously.
I have heard that copper acetylide double-salts are also somewhat light sensitive, and possibly can be made to detonate when exposed to light when prepared in the dark.

I should have mentioned I dont actually need you to get the article for me, I just need some keywords to help me find it. Anyone can browse and search the full collection of
every American Chemical Society journal at pubs.acs.org
What you cannot do at pubs.acs.org is actually view the journals. Abstracts, yes, first page, sometimes, full view, no. I can view the articles since I have access. All I need to
know are a few keywords to help me narrow my search.
Even better you might want to try your hand at pubs.acs.org and see if you can find the article. Just give me the pdf link and I will get it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid (ADCA), Analogs and Derivatives
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View Full Version : Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid (ADCA), Analogs and Derivatives
The_Duke November 5th, 2005, 02:07 AM

An interesting piece of literature recently came to my attention while researching an unrelated compound. I was looking through some old chemistry books in my universities
library when I found half of a torn out page from one of the books (I am unsure of which book though), anyway the page discuses a brief process for the manufacture of
Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid from HN3 and CS2 and mentions that several of the heavy metal salts of Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid explode with great violence from shock or when
exposed to flame. I have done further research and have found that Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid and derivatives are explosives and that they are fairly well documented in many
books, journals, patents etc. But they have never been discussed here at the forum. From what information I have thus far gathered, I can see minimal possibilities for practical
applications for several of the heavy metal salts of Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid for use in the Art, but over all the unavailability and high cost of the precursors would seem to limit
this group of explosives to being of general interest only.
I have found Details for a process for the manufacture of Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid from Sodium Azide and Carbon Disulfide from one of the JACS articles referenced in PATR
2700 (volume 1 page A632). Basically, equal molar amounts of Sodium Azide and Carbon Disulfide are allowed to react on each other in an aqueous medium (such as water)
for 48 hours at a temperature of 40C. Conc. Hydrochloric Acid is then used to convert the Sodium Azido-Dithiocarbonate salt into the free Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid. The free
acid is then filtered and dried.
The Pb salt of ADCA looks like the only one which were ever seriously considered for practical use as initiating explosive and seems like a possible candidate for Azo-Chlathrate
type complexes with other Lead compounds.
I will be preparing several of the salts in the weeks to come, once I purchase the Carbon Disulfide. Has anyone had any real success making Carbon Disulfide? Over at
ScienceMadness there has been but little success with very small yields of CS2 actually being produced. That thread can be found here (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/
viewthread.php?tid=1066).
The more relevant references can be downloaded below.
JACS 45 pg 2604 (http://www.easy-sharing.com/58557/JACS%2045%20pg%202604%20Azido-Dithiocarbonic%20Acid,%20Formation,%20Preparation%

20and%20Properties.pdf.html)
JACS 52 pg 2806 (http://www.easy-sharing.com/58550/JACS%2052%20pg%202806%20Azido-
Dithiocarbonic%20Acid%20&%20Salts%20of%20Cu,%20Ag,%20Au,%20Zn,%20Cd,%20Hg,% 20Tl,%20Pb%20and%20Bi.%20.pdf.html)
JACS 49 pg 917 (http://www.easy-sharing.com/58566/JACS%2049%20pg%20917%20Azido-Dithiocarbonic%20Acid,%20Azido-
Dithiocarbonates%20of%20Li,%20Na,%20Rb%20and%20Cs. pdf.html)
GB188302 (http://www.easy-sharing.com/58559/GB188302%20Initial%20explosive%20priming%20composi tions%20and%20process%20for%20their%20manufacture.
pdf.html)
quicksilver November 5th, 2005, 11:00 AM

I have found Details for a process for the manufacture of Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid from Sodium Azide and Carbon Disulfide from one of the JACS articles referenced in PATR
2700 (volume 1 page A632). Basically, equal molar amounts of Sodium Azide and Carbon Disulfide are allowed to react on each other in an aqueous medium (such as water)
for 48 hours at a temperature of 40C. Conc. Hydrochloric Acid is then used to convert the Sodium Azido-Dithiocarbonate salt into the free Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid. The free
acid is then filtered and dried.
Actually the only problematic issue would be the carbon disulfide, which is a tough item to come by in quantity. I heard of someone who was burned badly by same due to it's
very low flash point. Really, setting up an OTC source for it would be the way to go but I can't think of any at this point. Making it would be just as much work as distilling fine
HNO3. On the other hand I have found so much sodium azide pellets from air bag units that I am set there. One needs to extract the azide from the pellets (they are coated)
but with the solubility of azide, it's been a "non-issue". You really can get pounds of azide for very little work. The best are air bags in Fords and Cryslers as they are the
easiest to open. Others have proven to be a serious hassel to open up. The worst being Infinities.
That's some interesting material there. However I am interested in your comparison to the clathrate issue. Are you saying that one could bind a crystal latice with a Azido-
Dithiocarbonic or the other way around? Expounding on that issue would be apprieciated....this may be a winner...(?)

CS2 is AFAIR used in agriculture as some kind of pesticide for heavy rooted weed in wineyards (grape production) so look Mega's page or google on the web. Anyway I don't
know does those supposedly OTC products contain enough CS2 for anyone to try to extract it taking the risk involved. CS2 is highly flameable with flashpoint almost the same
as boiling point and as they told me have a habit to spontaneously self-ignite in contact with steam/water vapour. Happy hunting though...:cool: I wonder did you found what
are the products of decomposition reaction. This explosive can't be judged by OB, it can be conversion of crystal latice energy and/or some kind of explosive polymerisation. It
have a nitrogen but in its reduced form without NOx group near by to be used to convert it to N2. Does it produce S8 or H2S during reaction? If that is the case maybe some
kind of isothiocyanate forms and then start polymerisation reaction causing the energy of crystal lattice and polymer formation to be rapidly released...of course I'm just
guessing and asking did you bump into an answer so that I don't have to do it myself where you have been before.;) And if it produce HCN you can become blue:D may the
Gods of Explosive construction be with you!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN)
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me234 December 16th, 2005, 03:51 AM

Man, finally, I've been wanting to put this up for months.
So anyway, I have this document which sets out the proper way in which a scientific chemistry report should be constructed, and Im kinda going to follow it, so sections which are normally longwinded will be treated rather rapidly cause theyre not why people are reading
this article. So here goes:
Introduction
Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (or NHN (1)) has been proposed by both Shunguan et. al. (1) and Chhabra et al. (2) as a potential primary explosive for use in detonators and other explosive devices, and is focused on by Chhabra et. al. as a replacement for Lead Azide to mitigate
its less desirable properties, i.e. incompatibility with Cu etc.
NHN is an interesting explosive, especially in terms of a primary explosive, due to its reported low friction and impact sensitivities, coupled with a decent density, and a high VOD (properties will be given later). (1,2)
The aim of this investigation was three fold, firstly, to synthesise NHN and confirm its manufacture; secondly, to evaluate its suitability as a primary; and thirdly, and as always, to screw around with the stuff.
Experimental
A saturated solution of Nickel (II) Nitrate was diluted to roughly twice its volume with 95% ethanol. The stoichiometric amount of hydrazine hydrate was calculated, and a slightly less amount was measured out and diluted to twice its volume with 95% ethanol The ethanolic
hydrazine solution was placed on a magnetic stirrer and a stirrer bar was added and the solution was stirred at a medium rate. The ethanolic nickel nitrate solution was added initially on a drop by drop basis until the reaction became familiar and nervousness subsided
somewhat. Upon the nickel solution coming no contact with the hydrazine solution a bluish (almost lavender) precipitate was immediately formed (very much instantaneous), this did indeed change to a more purple precipitate upon contact (and thus agitation from this
contact) with the stirrer bar.
After a few initial milliliters of nickel solution, the addition rate was increased to a few ml a minute this was slowed a bit when temperature of the reaction mixture was noticed to have increased, to maybe 30/35 degrees Celsius.
Despite increasing the stirring rate of the stirrer bar, it quickly became ineffective as the beaker choked up with the precipitate very quickly
Half way trough the addition of the Ni solution, the beaker was almost completely full with the precipitate, and the beaker contents had to be stirred hard with a glass rod to induce contact between the two solutions. At this point the precipitate was isolated by means of
vacuum filtration, and the solids washed with some of the Ni(NO3)2 solution. This turned out to be a mistake, as residual hydrazine solution in the Buchner funnel caused the formation of the precipitate inside the funnel, and also in the collecting flask. It was around this time
that it as noticed that the precipitate formed is, in fact, rock hard, and a bitch to break up. So some more of the Ni solution was just added to the filtrate in the collecting flask (until no more precipitate formed, then a small extra was added), and the precipitate was filtered
out.
The precipitate was crushed a bit while on the filter paper, and then washed first with the remaining, excess Ni solution then with a 50/50 deionized water / 95 ethanol solution 2 or 3 times (I forget, this was one almost months ago), then twice with straight 95% EtOH (to
speed up drying). The dried product, again, rock hard lumps, was powdered fairly fine using a plastic spoon.
Results and Discussion
Yield
I didnt weigh what I got, but if this isnt a quantitative yield, then damned if know what is.
FTIR
The resultant product was air dried and was then characterized by FTIR. The resultant spectrum obtained, while not the best ever as the disc was made too concentrated, did contain all the peaks (with minor shifts) mentioned by Chhabra et. al., i.e. 3238 - NH2; 1626 - NH2;
1356 - NO3; 550 - Ni-N peaks (all units are per-centimeters).
Preparation of KBr discs was a nightmare: I really dont consider compressing a primary explosive to ~10000 tons pressure fun. Of the 4discs I made, 3 of them (all but the most dilute NHN disc) made an audible crack around the 7 ton mark, I dont know whether this was
a couple crystals detonating or what. It might have been this, or it may have been a larger crystal breaking up. I dont recall seeing any kind of discoloration of the disc afterwards, so Im going for the large crystal breakup theory.
From this (and from the burn tests) it as concluded that NHN was successfully prepared.
If anyone wants to see the IR spectrum, just let me know and Ill e-mail it to a couple people.
Also, if anyone here doesnt have experience with IR spectroscopy and didnt follow the disc thing, just say so and either I or someone who knows can explain it.
Deflagration
When a small amount of NHN was ignited, by means of the flame from a match, it burned very quickly, and very violently. Larger crystals (maybe 0,1mm) burn with something very close to a white flame, and the fine powder, when spread out, burns too fast over its entire
mass to actually notice a flame color. Larger lumps of this stuff tend to fly when ignited, i.e. the first bit ignites, and propels the rest of the lump/crystal while the rest of it burns. In fact, this stuff burns faster than any flash powder I have ever seen, including commercial
stuff removed from fireworks (which I only heard about of course and never actually did myself). This stuff would make some awesome firecrackers. Keep reading if youre concerned about firecrackers made from this stuff detonating.
Detonation
Drinking straws were used in this test, all we 6mm in diameter.
When reading this please bear in mind that I didnt have a scale for these tests.
A layer of DNB was pressed as hard as possible, by hand, into the bottom of a straw until a 5mm layer was obtained. On top of this was pressed, for Test 1, a 5mm layer of NHN (hand pressed as hard as possible while cringing and wearing goggles, earplugs and gloves),
followed by ~10 seconds worth of a KNO3/sugar delay mix. Test 2 had the same thing, but after the 5mm NHN, there was an ~2mm layer of trimeric AP (although the AP was several months old, 5 degree Celsius storage) pressed on top followed by the delay comp. The AP
wasnt pressed as hard as the first two layers, but was pressed almost as hard as I normally press it for use in det.s and this pressure has never failed me for lack of compactness of AP.
Both test 1 and 2 where performed in triplicate. The caps were buried a few cm into some loose dirt, then ignited.
DNB was used because it was the only secondary I had access to at the time.
The results?
Quite disappointing:
The three DNB-NHN caps failed to detonate. In all three cases the delay train successfully ignited the NHN, which then burned fiercely and quickly, causing a whoompf as it deflagrated and very mildly scorched the surface of the DNB. All three caps went low order through
the NHN layer.
Test 2: Three caps were tested, the AP layer in each was very close to 2mm long, but that doesnt men that the precision, with regards to AP weight used, was very good.
2 of the three caps tested didnt detonate the DNB layer, but they did make an audibly louder whoompf, verging on a pop. The third one however did detonate, no residual DNB could be found. The NHN definitely did something right in that last one.
I suspect what happened was that, for the first three (i.e. Test 1), the NHN merely deflagrated. In Test 2 I suspect that the AP columns of the first2 tests were not big enough to ensure a full deflagration to-detonation transition for the AP/NHN column.
Table of properties
Table 1: Properties of NHN

Density (1) 2.129 g/ml
Bulk Density (1) 0.85-0.95 g/ml
Oxygen Balance -5.74%
Volume of Explosion Gases (A<100oC / B>100oC) A 321.3 l/Kg
B 803.3 l/Kg
Nitrogen Content 40.%
Heat of Explosion (1) 1014 kcal/Kg
Velocity of Detonation (1) 7000 m/s @ 1.7 g/ml
Explosion Temperature (2) 219oC (heating @ 5oC/min)
Friction Sensitivity(2) 10 N +/- 1 N
Impact Sensitivity (2) 84 cm +/- 2.5 cm (2Kg drop weight)
Incompatibilities (1) Conc. H2SO4; 10% NaOH (mild reaction)
These properties were accumulated from the 2 references given at the end of the report; anything not referenced in Table 1 was calculated by hand (well, by calculator actually).
The sensitivities given are both taken from reference 2:
Impact sensitivity is given for 50% of the samples detonating; Friction sensitivity was found by increasing weights by 2N until 5 consecutive samples didnt explode (Julius Peter apparatus (2)).
NHNs incompatibility with 10% NaOH is suggested by Shunguan et. al. (1) as a possible method for disposal of NHN.
Compatibility tests
NHNs compatibilities were tested by crudely mixing (by the 'diaper' method I think it's called) a small amount of powdered NHN with a small amount of the powdered test substance (or adding 2 drops of any liquid test substance), wrapping this up in newspaper, and leaving
in a dark room for several (5) months. Blanks accompanied the test mixtures.
The following substances were tested for compatibility with NHN:
1 - AP
2 - DNB
3 - KNO3
4 - KCLO3
5 - AN
6 - Al powder
7 - NM
8 - NaCLO4
9 - activated C
Test samples, and blanks, were checked up on every month or 2.

Visual inspection was the standard by which any reactions were judged.
In all cases the NHN came through the tests unaffected.
AP: The AP crystals, after 2 months, were huge, some several mm long! After 5 months, no AP remained, NHN was unaffected. Oddly enough, the AP crystals with NHN were consistently smaller than those not in the presence of NHN. I suspect that the NHN provided
multiple nucleation sites for condensing AP, allowing for many more, smaller, crystals to form. Besides this, No Observable Reaction.
DNB: Acidic and neutralised DNB was used. No Observable Reaction.
KNO3: No Observable Reaction.
KCLO3: No Observable Reaction.
Ammonium Nitrate: The AN swiftly absorbed atmospheric moisture an dissolved. No Observable Reaction.
Al: No Observable Reaction.
Nitromethane: The NM blank discolored the paper a darkish yellow/orange. The same thing happened to the paper of the test sample, and the NHN was somewhat darkened (it looks the same, but with that wet hair is darker than dry hair look).
I dont know why the NHN turned a darker shade of purple. It could be that whatever the NM did to the paper caused the incorporation of a dark yellow/orange pigment into the NHN, but I doubt it.
Also, the NHN is now small balls instead of fine powder it started off as. These balls also have difficulty igniting, i.e. it takes a while for a flame to ignite them. Perhaps it is that the NHN is still damp with a small amount of NM.
NaCLO4: The crystals behaved the same as the AN did. No Observable reaction.
Carbon: No Observable Reaction.
From these tests I feel confident about NHN being compatible with most everything. I was out of HMTD, so I didnt try that, but if anyone really wants me to, I suppose I could try that.
Common reducing and oxidising agents seem to have no affect on NHN. Like HMTD, I was out of KMnO4, so that was not tested. Again, if anyone really wants to see those results, Im sure I could try it.
Shunguan et. al. (1) report negligible reactivity with Cu, Al, Fe and stainless steel over 8 years.
Conclusion
NHN has potential, Ill give it that. But as a primary, unless its used in exploding bridgewire devices, its used in kinda large amounts, or its used mixed with other primaries, then wouldnt recommend using NHN for a primary. However, as a base charge, it could be very
effective, especially with a very decent density, and a 7000m/s VOD!
Overall, NHN is very easy to make, and quiet fun to use. However Im quite paranoid about poisoning myself, so I just take some vitamin C after working with anything hydrazine based.
Future projects
Any suggestions?
Im thinking NHN putty (NHN/NC). Maybe with something added to ensure the NHN goes high order. Any ideas about this? I think I need something that has a quick deflagration-to-detonation rate. Come on people help me out here.
Any other ideas about what people would like to see done with this stuff are more than welcome. If the idea you put forward is just to screw around, fair enough, but please say so. If there are any scientific minded tests wanted, post them or PM me, but let me know what
type of results you want to see, Id hate to use up what I have and I didnt even get you what you needed. Proper tests, if I can do them, will most likely (not necessarily) take preference over screw-around tests. That being said, I'm looking for a way to screw around with
this shit, I really do want to do some plain old FUN stuff here.
So please, any interesting ideas about what I can do with the rest of this stuff, go ahead.
References
1 Shunguan Z, Youchen , Wenyl Z, Jingan M, 1997, Evaluation of a New Explosive: Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN) Complex, Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics, 22,pg 317-320
2 Chhabra J,TalawarM, Makashir P, Athana S, Singh H, 2003, Synthesis Characterization and Thermal Studies of (Ni/Co) Metal Salts of Hydrazine: Potential Initiatory Compounds, Journal Of Hazardous Materials , 99(3), pg 225-239
If anyone wants me to e-mail them a copy of the IR spectrum, I'd be happy to.
And also, if anyone wants me to explain my referencing technique, again, no problems, just let me know.
Keep the ideas coming.
quicksilver December 16th, 2005, 11:47 AM

Thank you for posting and working on what seems a pretty involved project. I apprieciate the way you provided a readable format.
When I think of hydrazine primaries I too think of poison. Frankly, it scares the crap out of me as I just heard of a family friend who was a research chemist passing away at 48yrs old from liver failure (and he didn't drink)....but aside from all that has any work alone the
same lines been done with nickle azide? I am not sure of this but I think one of the references you sighted (Athana S, Singh ?) did some work with azides.
Anyway; nice stuff, I kept it as a text file for future reference. - well done.
hereno January 7th, 2006, 05:08 AM

me243, Why did you use alcoholic solution? The reference (1) shows its solubility to be very low in water, less then EtOH. I think thats the synth posted on scimadness right? but surely EtOH isn't needed, unless you want to use it to wash the precip for shorter drying times.
Can you attach the Chhabra reference? (use rapidshare or something, it'll never get approved if attached here). I have the first reference from sciencemadness but not the second.
simply RED January 9th, 2006, 11:50 AM

These forum articles are becoming better than many such - published in the dusty academic magazines :) .
me234 January 30th, 2006, 02:50 AM

Hereno: I used the alcoholic soln. because I was basically just copying the sciencemadness synth that I read (I can't remember who posted it, AXT maybe, but thanks to them anyway).
The fact that it also aids drying, as you correctly though, was a bonus (I've always hated waiting for stuff to dry). The ethanol really did help me dry it nice and quick. Another bonus is that it helps dilute the reaction mixture without using water (drying aspect again), cause
let me tell you, huge yield, HUGE, it was fantastic. The beaker got so bloody full it seriously was a problem trying to get the two soln.s to mix, especially since the ppt. was fairly hard and had to be a bit broken up before they would mix thoroughly.
I don't have that Chhabra article one me now, but I'll e-mail it to you if you want when I next stop in (might be a week or so unfortunately). Just post or PM me your e-mail address and I'll get it off as soon as I can.
Quicksilver: Hydrazine scares the shit out of me too! A couple of times after working with the NHN for any longish time (10-20 minutes or so) I get a headache, this is then followed closely by a sneaking suspicion about where I got it from. But I googled hydrazine as a
poison, and after a couple other searches I saw a site that says Vitamin C is supposed to help with hydrazine poisoning. So now every time I work with it, I just pop a couple pills, and the headache actually leaves in short order.
me234 February 23rd, 2006, 10:23 AM

Hereno, I was just going to PM you the address for the article, but I figure everyone should have access to it. It's a bio based website (of all things) full of journal articles. It asked me to register before I could get the whole thing, but it was free with no waiting period (i.e. ~
30 seconds):
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TGF-48B01DH-
1&_coverDate=05%2F30%2F2003&_alid=369693422&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5253&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000058881&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=3002350&md5=05d6824be035ffb16dbda698aff06b72
For those of you who can't manage to get it from there, PM me your e-mail address and I'll send it to you as a Word document.
Well, seeing as how I'm already here...
I've been thinking of stuff to do with this, and I was going over Tim Lewis's (IIRC) "Kitchen Improvised BC's" and it said how MHN tends to detonate if heated too fast (yes MHN, not a spelling mistake). Combine that with NHN's extremely rapid deflagration rate, and I'm
thinking an intimate mixture of the 2 might be flame sensitive, if given a big enough charge to allow the deflagration-detonation transition; Normally very large for NHN (haven't actually managed to get there yet, I'm also thinking of packing a 6mm straw with the stuff) an
MHN/NHN mixture might feature the NHN burning fast and hot, and plain old forcing the MHN to detonate from the rapid local overheating of crystals.
Any thoughts?
Pretty please?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Annm + H2so4
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Viper III January 12th , 2006, 10:49 AM

hello, I am new and a saw a vid where annm+h2so4 is testet against normal annm , a n d t h e a n n m +h2so4 m a d e a h o l e i n a
stee l plate, the normal annm just a little deform ing.
how is the velocity (m /s) from this ann m + h 2 s o 4 ( 4 0 : 4 0 : 2 0 )
is it able to get good results in shaped charges?
last week a put 100g of this annm + h 2 s o 4 p l u s 3 0 g a n n m al against a 13cm fat tree, and the tree was pissed off ^^
I always m ix AN and H2so4 at first because of the HNO 3, and then i put the NM into the m ixture.......its very thin- floating and
on the groun d der is the m ost AN and on the surface there ist m ostly just liquid
The_Duke January 12th , 2006, 11:14 AM

Adding H2SO 4 to ANNM will not increase the power in any way. The video you seen is an in com plete detonation of the ANNM,
the only purpose of a dding Sulfuric Acid to ANNM is to in crease the sensitivity, that is all.
Viper III January 12th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 3 2 P M

But I think it should be a little bit stronger,....hno3/NM ist also p efekt to use in LSC or SC...

But I think that it sho uld be a little bit stronger because HNO 3/NM ist also good to use in LSC or SC

but i think it should b e a little bit stron ger beca use of HNO 3/NM is also perfekt to use in LCD where a high velocity is needet :)

W TF ???!!!!!
@ first the board shows no posts, i have written , so I tried some times, a nd now, one day later there are all
posts,.....*confused*

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Anfo-k
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Viper III January 15th, 2006, 08:46 AM

Last summer a blew up 2,3 kg Anfo-k (K for katalysator) and the result was amazing.. it rained earth for 10 seconds and there
was a really big hole ,...i digged it in vor 20 cm under the surface.
here is the Vid:
http://rapidshare.de/files/11086618/2_3kg_anfo-k__1_5kg_kas-diesel_prills.MOV.html
and a pic, 2 weeks after the detonation...the crater was filled with water:
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/3521/23kganfokkraternach2wochen0ms.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
I think Anfo.k is a really cheap low explosive which produces a lot of gas, so its perfekt to make big holes =)
me234 January 17th, 2006, 01:37 AM

Hey Viper, I was wondering, when you say "k" is for catalyst, what exactly do you use as a catalyst?
Or is the diesal fuel the "k"?
Anyway, nice hole! It's fun seeing the results isn't it? He, he.
simply RED January 17th, 2006, 11:02 AM

Very nice video also!
I have a few questions.
- What was the detonator?

- What was the diameter of the charge?
- What was the charge itself? %NH4NO3, %diesel, %kat (what kind of "katalysator" was used?)
Viper III January 17th, 2006, 11:07 AM

as catalysist i take "brownstone" MnO2.
You can destroy some kinds of batteries. But this MnO2 ist not very clean so you put it into a plastic can oder something else
and put boiling water on it....then let it dry.
The best mixture is:
1000g AN
30g MnO2
60g Diesel or engine oil.
As booster you can take 50g APAN...but ANNM,Ammonal is better.
Here is a picture where 500g anfo-k detonated:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4580/krater500gschaufel3rb.png (http://imageshack.us)
simply RED February 19th, 2006, 06:14 AM

I have to report for another success with AN explosives.
750g NH4NO3 (agricultural grade)

30ml Pine Te(u)rpentine (pine oil used for paint solvent)
50g Al powder (form paint)
All AN used - well dried and powdered with coffee grinder.

Diameter 8-10 cm, 1mm steel casing enforced with duct tape , [150g AN + 40g HMTD] - booster.
Detonator - 3g HMTD pressed in medical syringe.
The device was created with the simplest ingredients possible.
Gives sharp detonation with slight smoke.
Pine turpentine contains unsaturated monoterpenes (C10). One of the most reactive and energetic reducing agent available.
Viper III February 23rd, 2006, 11:51 AM

is it also possible to make just a mixture of An + terpentine and blow it up with 20g ammonal ?
simply RED February 23rd, 2006, 02:37 PM

is it also possible to make just a mixture of An + terpentine and blow it up with 20g ammonal ?
If the ammonal (AN + Al (+TNT-optional) goes off, the charge should detonate too...
Anyway, I never tried as low quantity as 20 grams AN + Al.
Viper III February 23rd, 2006, 03:00 PM

i just want to know if AN + Terpentine is a sekundr charge like ammonal,annm,dynamits....or if it need a stronger booster
charge like anfo.k
if this explosiv is strong like ammonal it would be great
i think I will buy tommorow terpentine =)
simply RED February 23rd, 2006, 04:48 PM

It is a secondary charge but theory suggests it is less sensitive than powdered TNT. Maybe 10-20% more powerful than ANFO
(especially with Al added).
I noted tha lack of dense white smoke (which anfo always gived off) . This indicates better burning.
I made it only 2 times . Both times about 830 grams (in a tin can from corn). Both times with especially strong boosters. (Both
charges were used to knock down a tree (30-40 cm). The tree fall after the second blast.
I don't know exactly how sensitive the mix is.
Viper III March 1st, 2006, 02:44 PM

hm the problem is that I won`t use AL powder because then i also could make Ammonal B , and AL powder is for me difficult
to get
simply RED March 1st, 2006, 06:04 PM

Use only terpentine and you still have 10-15% more powerful and 30-40% more sensitive expolosive than normal anfo.
(you could compare AN-terpentine and ANFO-K experimentally)
Viper III March 2nd, 2006, 10:35 AM

" (you could compare AN-terpentine and ANFO-K experimentally) "
good idea ^^
when its not cold anymore i will make some kg pure AN and test it 2kg of both explosives 30cm under the earth
how would be the right mixture in % of terpentine to AN (not with al)
simply RED March 2nd, 2006, 04:29 PM

6% Terpentine - 94% AN. The mix with alluminium was brizant enough to cut down a tree (with a big piece of concrete for
counterweight the second blast), it is interesting to compare the brizance of the charges too.
KLuuppo March 19th, 2006, 11:45 AM

I'm not sure whether this should be in picric acid topic or here but I'm asking it anyway. I have about 1kg of AN and some fuel
oil and I probably can manage to get my hands on some manganese oxide. I've been planning something like 1-2kg ANFO -
k (now that I red about it) and detonating it with picric acid which would be detonated with few grams of HMTD or AP. The
question is, how much do you think will be enough of picric acid to detonate the ANFO -k? And happens anyone to know what
amount of HMTD or AP is needed for picric acid to go off. (Yes I know that last question isn't in right place, but I suppose it
isn't worth of posting as own)
Viper III March 25th, 2006, 05:56 AM

Here a new video of 1kg anfo.k in a little "lake" it is just the 2,3kg anfo.k crater full with water...
http://rapidshare.de/files/16367987/1kg_Anfo.k_Underwater.mpg.html
1-more-urban-pyr0000 March 25th, 2006, 07:30 PM

Newbies need to make their first postings here something more substantial than "LOL, Me2!"-type responses.
You can do that later, after you've proven yourself a contributing member, but dead weight we don't need. Contribute to the
discussion or leave.
Viper III March 26th, 2006, 06:42 AM

this time I used expensive motor engine oil from my motobycicle...
and yess, i think it works better than diesel
and the cam electronic is damaged because of the shockwave....
wulli May 20th, 2006, 01:19 PM

hi folks ,
I hope that you wont get angry about my answer in this pretty old thread
I did some research with a friend [he calls himself "rasmus" ] 3 or 4 years ago and we found out that MnO2 ist a good catalyst
for the decomposition of NH4NO3 to n2 h2o nox nh3...
Im just writing it down because Im amazed how popular the mixture "anfo-k" became in the past 2 years , the most german
pyros are using it cause the "critical mass" is reduced to <75g and it neednt to be buried to get an complete detonation
here is a small vid :
3kg anfok [maincharge]

100gr annm [just used to get sure that the detonation got complete]
150gr ammonal-b [ i found it by tiding up my little laboratory]
15gr PETN [booster]
ini : 0.2gr Pb(N3)2 [-type]
http://home.arcor.de/technikertreff/videos/3kg.avi
wish you a nice weekend.
NoltaiR May 22nd, 2006, 09:43 PM

It is very good to see someone is actually putting some work into their research ;)
While this forum is technically supposed to be discussion of theory, it is easy to see that in these past few years where little or
no experimentation has been done, the discussion has come to a halt.
And with the addition of media such as the video and pictures provided, it makes this whole experience (that we call theForum)
a lot more amusing.
Having that said, I must add that Viper III, you should really reconsider posting photos like the one you have near the middle
that has a portion of a person in it. In a time where science of this nature has come under such scrutiny, it is wise to leave as
little human interaction viewable.
ANFO has always been one of my favorites. The chemicals for this secondary explosive are relatively easy to attain, it is quite
safe to work with, and usually leaves not much of a mess to clean up later (other than the giant holes in the ground).
And by "easy to attain".. I mean a trip down to your local Wal-Mart.
The only real downside of this explosive is that it has such a low brisance. Even in your video at the slow motion replay, there
is no visible shockwave. However when taping an experiment of something that does have a high level of brisance (even well
packed black powder charges) you have a noticeable halo that dispells quickly from ground zero.. and is quite fun to watch!
Lastly in the discussion of a "catalyst" as you call it... Your secondary obviously requires a primary to detonate it. If you have
your ANFO contained very well, you really shouldn't need a third compound in there to help the reaction. Any of your VERY
common primaries (by common I mean easy to produce) like APAN or my legendary APrc should condense the secondary to
the critical mass required for detonation to occur. If there is still a problem with that, then make a small shaped charge out of
your primary.. that should easily do the trick.
NoltaiR May 26th, 2006, 01:37 AM

I have one more thing to add.
I noticed the guy that posted before me, was making his first post.
To my pleasure, he used phrases like "I did some research.." and even posted a video to help facilitate the discussion!!!
Why can't all the new guys be like this?!? And good job wulli!
One more thing.. I just noticed this guy has been a member since 2003. Well we do advise that you be a reader first before a
poster ;)
Viper III May 26th, 2006, 01:41 PM

hello wulli..
this board is a little bit better thand kranky board or the german explosive board isnt it ? ^^
I hope I am able to walk in the next 6 weeks...because i had an motobike accident...and then I am looking forward to set of a
10kg anfo.k charge...should be funny ^^
NoltaiR May 26th, 2006, 05:00 PM

If I may ask, where are you getting all your AN from? Surely if you are making charges of that size, you aren't breaking open
a ton of those little cold packs...
Viper III May 27th, 2006, 04:55 AM

I have 100kg KAS fertilizer.. (80% AN 20% lime)
its a nasty job do clean the AN from the lime..but i have no other way to geht AN...
we payed for 100kg KAS 26 i think...so its really cheap
NoltaiR May 27th, 2006, 11:09 AM

Well it is safe to say that I am jealous ;)
There was a guy here a while back that was getting AN in the big bags like that and had some videos that he posted of 50kg
charges. That was amazing...
Viper III May 28th, 2006, 09:01 AM

where are the links to the vids of the 50kg charges ????!!!!! holy shit:eek:
Another positiv aspect of anfo.k is that it isnt very loud compared to ammonal for example, and it also helps a lot to digg in
the charge for a few cm.... and the crater would also be bigger.....hmm, ich like raining earth:p
knowledgehungry May 30th, 2006, 09:10 AM

A member named spydamonkee did some 10 kg charges. He was talking about doing larger ones but I don't think he ever
posted any thing on them.
The thread with the video is http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/high-explosives/206-got-5m-crater.html
Pretty cool stuff.
Viper III May 30th, 2006, 12:53 PM

thanks...
I also made 11kg CANFO-K (also with catalysator!!!!) last sommer
As booster i took 200g APAN.....und burried it a little bit....but just around 1,5kg detonated....shit-house-tour....
But this guy took 1kg APAN...maybe this was the trick.....I have a new projekt for this sommer :D
Kleng June 1st, 2006, 01:14 PM

If you can get hold of some Nitromethane a booster of 1kg ANNM would really kick ass!
The_Duke June 1st, 2006, 08:30 PM

As booster i took 200g APAN.....und burried it a little bit....but just around 1,5kg detonated....shit-house-tour....
But this guy took 1kg APAN...maybe this was the trick.....I have a new projekt for this sommer :D
Making 200g of APAN is just plain stupid and kewlish...:rolleyes:
Making 1kg APAN is insane!:eek:
Viper III June 2nd, 2006, 05:33 AM

@ the duke
I know, i know....but had no Al anymore vor ammonal, but know I have 3,5 litres Nitromethane = )
Kleng June 2nd, 2006, 10:08 AM

Make some videos of ANNM then. In addition you can use it as booster for some really big ANFO-charges. Just buy a sack of
cheap NH4NO3...
Viper III June 2nd, 2006, 01:21 PM

the problem is I really get no clean NH4NO3 here,,....just fertilizer with 20% lime in it...so to make 10kg pure AN I need arount
20 hours work time...
this would be no problem for me...but I live by my parents..and my father is a cop..and so its a little bit a problem...because
it would be a little bit eye catching if I boil the AN liquid in the garage and dry the AN in the oven....
Kleng June 6th, 2006, 09:35 AM

Can't you get hold of some instant ice-packs? They are filled with clean AN:) And by the way, last time I made ANNM, I dried
my AN in the sun. It would only work on a sunny day though. If it is rainy, probalbly some kind of strong lamp would work?
zajcek01 June 6th, 2006, 11:14 AM

Sorry for my off topic, but a word of advice:
Viper III, my father is also a cop, and my mother is laboratory assistant in school.
I used to hide my experiments from my parents, so I had to work very fast, the result was a lot of spills and broken glassware
:(
USE
It is better to tell the truth what are you doing, because if something goes wrong, they know what were you doing... Let's say
for example you go in the garage and play around with your freshly generated chlorine, or your newly bought cyanide and told
your parents what will you going to do in garage, they will know how to get proper help if they will find you lying unconscious on
the garage floor. And the best thing about telling them the truth is, that you can go together somewhere and test your new
explosives, maybe they will even buy you some "not dangerous" chemicals.
PARAGRAPH
Before we moved all my neighbors knew what am I doing. I once blew up an old couch and everyone ran over to see if I am
OK. I was lucky to have such nice neighbors. They never complained about explosions,smoke bombs ,not even about loud
music late at night when my parents were away. Now I experiment in abandoned barn and detonate explosives in old siloses.
My point is: It's better to tell the people around you what are you doing, so they can help you if something goes wrong.
BREAKS
p.s. sorry for my English, I'm still learning...the "Check Spelling" thing relay comes in handy!
Viper III June 7th, 2006, 02:53 AM

I don`t have to say my neighbours what I am doing...Now everybody knows it since new Year :D
My father is strictly against everything..also normal, undangerous chemical expieriments...because he saw some of my HE
movies...(typically cop....) and if he sees tiny white powder particles in my room, he knows whats going on...
I have to sent all my chems which i bye in the internet to a friend...
That sucks, but its the most fun making hobby i know... :D

I'm using the same tactic as zajcek01 and it works great. The problem was when I first time detonated ANFO. Then the BANG
was a bit too loud and about the whole island I live on heard it. Thererfor I haven't blow up something for about one month.
The only thing I've done in the last time is to chemically destroy brown snails in our garden with conc. HNO3 ;)
aikon June 7th, 2006, 08:05 AM

...The only thing I've done in the last time is to chemically destroy brown snails in our garden with conc. HNO3 ;)
What a waste of precious nitric acid! :eek:
Kleng June 7th, 2006, 05:49 PM

What a waste of precious nitric acid! :eek:
Not if you got 25 liters and can get a lot more! I can buy a can of 25 litres for about 25 USD.
I would like to destill it to make som RDX, but it looks very scary.
Viper III June 9th, 2006, 05:43 AM

making PETN should also work with a mixture of 65% HNO3 and hico. H2SO4
but now back to topic....
I don`t know where I should buy these instant Cold packs...I have never heared of them...I am shure they are quite
expensive..
nbk2000 June 9th, 2006, 08:15 AM

Pharamacies, drug-stores, sporting goods stores, and first-aid/medical suppliers are places where you could buy instant cold
packs. Also, in these departments at large retailers like Wal-Mart (which you likely don't have).
Though you have to test it to make sure that it IS Ammonium Nitrate, as some cold packs use Urea, instead.

I buy mine Instant-Cold Packs from a Sport Shop. They cost about 2 USD. You should read on them first, just to be sure that
they contains AN. But if the contains Urea, you just make som Urea Nitrate. When this AN is grounded, it works perfect for
APAN, ANNM and ANFO. It's only that I've used it for.
live4ever July 18th, 2006, 07:25 PM

I'm pretty sure the instant cold packs that contain ammonium nitrate are required to state that they contain ammonium
nitrate, if not on the box, then on the pack itself, usually somewhere under the first aid section.
If you can't find anywhere on the box or pack that says it contains ammonium nitrate and water, then save yourself the money
and don't buy it.
c.Tech July 29th, 2006, 10:50 AM

I'm pretty sure the instant cold packs that contain ammonium nitrate are required to state that they contain ammonium
nitrate, if not on the box, then on the pack itself, usually somewhere under the first aid section.
If you can't find anywhere on the box or pack that says it contains ammonium nitrate and water, then save yourself the money
and don't buy it.
It also depends in which country/state you live in, laws may be different depending on where you are.
I did a quick google search and found that most endothermic reactions (cold reactions) in instant cold packs contain
ammonium nitrate. It would be rare to find other chems although others can be used.
http://www.visionlearning.com/library/module_viewer.php?mid=54&l=&c3
A good example of an endothermic reaction is that which takes place inside of an instant '"cold pack." Commercial cold packs
usually consist of two compounds - urea and ammonium chloride in separate containers within a plastic bag. When the bag is
bent and the inside containers are broken, the two compounds mix together and begin to react. Because the reaction is
endothermic, it absorbs heat from the surrounding environment and the bag gets cold.
http://www.faqfarm.com/Q/What_kind_of_liquid_is_in_instant_cold_packs
A waterbag activates a chemical inside an outter pack, usually Ammonium Nitrate. However, because of its potential danger, a
Urea Based pack with non-toxic addatives has become the norm to create a icy sensation. I believe only one company
manufactures this specific composition, called the InstaKool by Nortech.
I have not been able to locate an instant cold pack that doesn't use amonium nitrate...
Inste ad of ne ver bu ying the product get company s n umber d own (or tra ck them th rough th eir address, which should be on
the box) and ask if it has ammonium nitrate because you want to know if you can use it as a fertilizer after use ;) then go
back and buy the cheapest one :D (Is my background Jewish?;)).
fiknet July 30th, 2006, 04:32 AM

I'm in Western Australia and I have been to several different stores in different areas.
The first one was a discount health chain called "Priceline" I purchased the Medi-Pak Instant Ice Pack and it contained pure
Ammonium Nitrate.
For the second I went back to the same store and got the same brand however it appears the company have changed to Urea
as I also tried another Priceline store in another area and it also contained Urea.
The others were pharmacies ( I believe Amcol it was called and another one I'm not sure of the name ) in several areas and
they all stocked the brand Surgi-Pack ( I think that's the name, look for a white box.) Instant Ice Packs and they contained
CALAM which is 80% AN and 20% Limestone which is easy to seperate. They had an average cost of 7.95$
Always make sure to open the box and look on the packet to see what it contains.
My question is that is it alright to use the CALAM or will the 20% impurity result in a major power decline.
c.Tech July 31st, 2006, 03:58 AM

is it alright to use the CALAM or will the 20% impurity result in a major power decline.
If you use 80% it probably would be much harder to detonate. Instead of risking it just separate the limestone like you said.
As limestone contains nearly all if not all insoluble substances, just dissolve the AN in water, filter and evaporate (unless of
course the limestone is separated from the AN and you just have to pick out the AN granules from the limestone.)
You probably already know th is but make sure you AN is very d ry, you could try us ing calcium chloride sold at Bu nning s
under the name dampsorb for absorbing excess moisture in the bathroom.
What would be the purpose of limestone in instant cold packs anyway?
Diabolique September 29th, 2006, 06:09 PM

c.Tech, I suspect that the lime is there to make it difficult for people like us to use it for fun things. I have also heard that
some prills are being coated with a material to keep the fuel oil from absorbing into the AN prills. I have heard stearic acid
mentioned for this, but there are likely other materials as well. (Spoil sports).
In highschool, we combined AN with MnO2 (the black powder inside carbon batteries) in a test tube, and heated it to produce
nitrous oxide. The MnO2 acted as a catylyst. Possibly the same is happening here.
MnO2 boiled into raw linseed oil is 1/2 of the dryer mixture used for spontaneous combustion mixtures - the other half is
litharge (lead oxide) boiled into linseed oil. Mixed and soaked into cotton cloth, and you have fire in a few hours. Makes one
wonder what would happen if the dryers were mixed with AN instead?
Bert September 30th, 2006, 12:52 AM

have also heard that some prills are being coated with a material to keep the fuel oil from absorbing into the AN prills. I have
heard stearic acid mentioned for this, but there are likely other materials as well.
Stearic acid and Aluminum added to Amomium nitrate is described in COPAE as "French Amonal". If they're really doing this,
they're making it EASIER to use the AN for explosives...

c.Tech, I suspect that the lime is there to make it difficult for people like us to use it for fun things. I have also heard that
some prills are being coated with a material to keep the fuel oil from absorbing into the AN prills. I have heard stearic acid
mentioned for this, but there are likely other materials as well. (Spoil sports).
Even if they do that there will always be a way to get around it.
I believe that stearic acid is soluble in ethanol, and if other coating ingredients are used the AN could just be crushed.
But if the water has to contact the AN to cause a endothermic reaction. This means that the coating layer would have to water
soluble too, Because of the extremely high solubility and low melting point of ammonium nitrate it should be easier to
separate than you think.
I also think they are doing to avoid the so-called 'threat of terrorism' and make our people 'safer'.
Diabolique September 30th, 2006, 04:49 PM
Where there is a will, there is a way (or is it a dead body?). The simplest way I know of to recover AN is to dissolve it in water,
filter out the solids, and evaporate it to a solid. It may be necessary to heat it to melting to drive off all of the water, and
grinding it to a powder in a humidity free room. A lot of work.
When even the expensive and poor quality sources of AN are gone, we can buy ammonium sulfate and react it with calcium
nitrate (now you know what to do with spent nitric acid from RDX production). It may be worth while to compile info on making/
purifying AN from alternate sources.
Viper III October 12th, 2006, 02:58 PM

OK guys, the next time I will work on a little bomb, that means a lot of work hours.
1kg ANNM booster +5kg ANFO-K + 10kg CANFO, that should be a huge ass explosion which should get famous.
I will need around 6 weeks because my parents shouldn't see when I cook the AN solution and dry it in the oven.
The most important thing is that I also have to find a good location to set off this charge.
I don't really know how deep I should dig it in to silence most of the noise.
++++++++++++=
Grammar is your friend. :) NBK
Lewis October 12th, 2006, 09:55 PM

Is it just me, or does Viper seem like on of those men of action that tends to deliver great entertainment for all of us at the
forums, yet has a decent chance of winding up dead?
The user Phone comes to mind. I believe he was talking about waiting for is parents to leave his house before he began
making his explosives.
nbk2000 October 12th, 2006, 11:27 PM

The 'Phone' line is dead.
There's no dial tone on that 'Phone'.
The jokes write themselves! :D
deadman October 13th, 2006, 04:05 AM

Well I was going to try to think of some more phone jokes, but my brain farted out.
Everyone who is starting out in high explosive remember the lesson of phone. He definitley was a kewl, but as any kewl he
thought he was smarter than those who advise against making AP without proper respect or technique.
If you are not familiar with phone's story make sure you take a look.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2311-storing-acetone-peroxide.html#post56999
The piles of AP that killed him(originally posted by al93535):

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0402/23/NYHETER-23s11pulver_368.jpg
+++++++++
If you're going to copy/paste a link, make sure you do it properly, by right click/'Copy Link Location', as copying the text of
the link with ... in it is NOT going to work. NBK
simply RED October 13th, 2006, 06:24 AM

Is it completely sure phone was the guy from the newspaper story?
Viper III October 13th, 2006, 10:33 AM

why is there so much spam ???
Did i say that i want to make 16kg AP ???

So where is the problem ?
Lewis October 13th, 2006, 11:49 PM

I wasn't trying to flame you or attack your credibility, Viper, just a reminder to be careful.
{Phone just received a collect call from his Maker}

we all have helmets, 150m cabel, and store the ini cap away from the sek. charge..
believe me, i know how i handle explosives...

PS: sorry for my bad english

Viper, what exactly do you use as your initiation system? Other than a 150meter cable.
BTW: Try not to apologize for your english, just do your best and if there is a problem understanding it will be addressed. Not
trying to put you down, but it is looked down upon.

initiaton system ? 1 gramm HMTD ? a strong battery ? BP-pill with a iron fiber in it ?

Sorry I wasn't clear in my question. I just meant do you use an actual flip switch, or push button box to send the electric
current to initiate your primary? From your post I am guessing you just complete the circuit of a "strong battery."
c.Tech October 18th, 2006, 05:31 AM

Sorry delate this post, it somehow went in the wrong thread.

my friend is electritian , at the moment he builds a new box : 3 safty flip switch + push button with green and red LEDs....
Kleng October 18th, 2006, 04:25 PM

Nice ViperIII:)
Me and my friend is also going to build a box just like the one you describe. Could you upload a picture and a short
explanation to it when it's done?

Yess of course,...i hope my friend is not too lazy to do it how i want.
I changed my plan: just 10kg CANFO + 40g AL per kg and 1kg annmal booster...
@ the moment 2kg of CANFO-K are ready and in a few days i should get 2kg AL powder 70
Cleaning the CAN is too much work ^^
+++++++
How did you manage to get it right at the beginning of the second sentence, and fail so miserably the rest of the posting? NBK

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > NJ3 with potassium jodine
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does it work if I take 9% amm o n i a k a n d p o t a s s i u m j o d i n e i n s t e a d o f n o r m a l j o d i n e ?
and yess , i know...its dangerous like hell...
festergrump January 19th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 1 2 P M

W h a t i s a m m oniak and what is jodine? W hy do we not have these chem icals here in the U SA? W hy do they not have shift keys
o n t h e c o m p u t e r k e y b o a r d s i n your area of the world? W h y d o I g e t t h e s n e a k i n g s u s p i c i o n t h a t Y O U m a y b e d a n g e rous as
hell?
meselfs January 19th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 5 : 3 9 P M

Am m o n i a k i s p r o b a b l y a m m onia, and jodine is iodine. As a bonus, here's a photo of me:http://www.urbandictionary.com/
im a g e s . p h p ? i m a g e i d = 3 0 1 8 9
Anyway, potassium io dide will not work. The triiodide ion will not work either. It's not really that dangerous since it's not
appalingly powerful, but it's sensitivity is simply obnoxious to the point that very few people will waste their iodine on it.
Are you Dutch?

Are you dutsh ? ...is this the same meaning like "are you nuts? " ??
I live in Austria....and I am just interestet if it work because m y chem istry teacher told me that he makes NI3 with potassium
jodine...
whatever, m a y b e h e t a l k e d n o n s e n s e .
hereno January 20th , 2006, 11:58 AM

No you want I2, simply dissolve KI in HCl (creating HI) then oxidize with H2O 2, I2 precipitates.
meselfs January 20th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 5 : 5 9 P M

Oh no, Dutch m e a n s " O f N e t h e r l a n d s " .
"Are you Dutch" m eans "Are you from the Netherlands?"
hereno, there's a nice way to m a k e i o d i n e .
kurtz January 21st, 2006, 09:29 PM

m ore obviousness:
e x p e c t f l a m es when using German che m i c a l l a n g u a g e o n an English board. (its io dine, I, in English)
> The triiodide ion will not work either
Brauer: "For lecture dem onstrations the explosive nitrogen triiod ide is
p r e p a r e d m o re sim ply by precipitating a KI3 solution with concentrated
a m monia and washing the precipitate with alcohol and
ether on a suction filter."
meselfs January 23rd , 2006, 01:09 AM

Thanks for the correction, kurtz.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > A lot of interresting AN-Mix explosives !
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View Full Version : A lot of interresting AN-Mix explosives !
Viper III March 22nd, 2006, 06:26 AM

I think you k now som e o f t h e m ...
Am m o n i u m n i t r a t - M i x E x p l o s i v e s :
-87% Am m o n i u m n i t r a t + 1 3 % D i p h o r o n p e n t a p e r o x i d
-88% Am moniumnitrat + 12% Acetonp e r o x i d
-82% Am m o n i u m n i t r a t + 1 8 % H e x a m e t h y l e n t r i p e r o x o d i a m i n
-80% Am moniumnitrat + 7% Acetonpe roxid + 13% Tetrahydrofu ran
-88% Am moniumnitrat + 12% Methylethylketonperoxid
-83% Am moniumnitrat + 17% Glycerin
- 8 6 , 5 % A m m onium nitrat + 13 ,5% Ethylenglycol
-82% Am moniumnitrat + 10% Glycerin + 8% Nitromethan
-95% Am moniumnitrat + 5% Xylol
-90% Am moniumnitrat + 10% Ethylacetat
-92% Am moniumnitrat + 8% Aceton
-94% Am moniumnitrat + 6% Nitroverdnnung
-95% Am moniumnitrat + 5% Diesel
-95% Am moniumnitrat + 5% Toluol
-60% Am moniumnitrat + 40% Harnstoffnitrat
-57% Am moniumnitrat + 43% Guanidinnitrat
-60% Am moniumnitrat + 40% Nitroguanidin
-60% Am m o n i u m n i t r a t + 4 0 % M o n o m ethylam innitrat
-90% Am m o n i u m n i t r a t + 1 0 % H e x a m in
-80% Am moniumnitrat + 20% Harnstoff
-80% Am m o n i u m n i t r a t + 2 0 % H e x a m indinitrat
-65% Am moniumnitrat + 35% Ethylendiam indinitrat
-83% Am moniumnitrat + 17% Aluminium
-88% Am moniumnitrat + 7% l + 5% Aluminium
-88% Am moniumnitrat + 7% l + 5% Kalium bichromat
-83% Am moniumnitrat + 7% l + 5% Aluminium + 5% Kalium bichromat
-79% Am moniumnitrat + 14,5 % Nitrom e t h a n + 6 , 5 % M e t h a n o l
-77% Am moniumnitrat + 20% Nitromethan + 3% Zink
-75% Am moniumnitrat + 15% Nitromethan + 10% Aceton
-82% Am moniumnitrat + 15% Nitromethan + 3% Xylol
-83% Am moniumnitrat + 17% Nitromethan/Methanol
-84% Am moniumnitrat + 9% Nitromethan + 4% l + 3% Aceton
-80% Am moniumnitrat + 14% Nitromethan/Methanol + 6% Nitroglycerin
-59% Am moniumnitrat + 33% Nitromethan + 8% Cellulosenitrat
-80% Am moniumnitrat + 17% Nitroglycerin + 3% C ellulosenitrat
-70% Am moniumnitrat + 27% Nitroglycerin + 3% C ellulosenitrat
-77% Am moniumnitrat + 15% Nitroglycerin + 8% Aceton
-75% Am moniumnitrat + 15% Am m o n i u m p i k r a t + 10% Nitroglycerin
-90% Am moniumnitrat + 10% Nitrotoluol
-90% Am moniumnitrat + 10% Nitroxylol
-90% Am moniumnitrat + 10% Nitronaphtalin
-74% Am moniumnitrat + 26% Trinitrophenol
-85% Am moniumnitrat + 15% Dinitrotoluol
-87% Am moniumnitrat + 13% Dinitronaphthalin
-65% Am moniumnitrat + 35% Nitrostrke
-60% Am moniumnitrat + 40% Cellulosenitrat
its g erm an, if you don`t know a word, you can ask me...
Ropik March 22nd, 2006, 09:05 AM

It would be better to include som e info about sensitivity and required bla sting cap or booster. Now it is interesting, but nothing
else, because trial an d error m ethod is rather costly...
S o m e of these mixes are described in Kitchen Fertilizer Explosives, including info about VoD and what it takes to blast it, IIR C.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > MDC (Mild Detonating Cord)
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View Full Version : MDC (Mild Detonating Cord)
Oily April 26th, 2006, 07:27 PM

Hi
W e h a v e s o m e M D C ( M i n i a t u r e D e t o n a t i n g C o r d ) from a T o r n a d o canopy we're cutting up at work.
Any of you know how to detonate the cord? We're thinking along the lines of applying high voltage but how high? I did a search
but nothing came up with MDC.
Any help appreciated. :)
festergrump April 26th, 2006, 11:00 PM

I don't see why it wouldn't detonate with any primary.
Since the aircraft is still in service all over the world, it's doubtful you'll be able to find m uch info available on the internet on
the 'hows and whys' of the system s they incorperate for mid-air deployment, though.
But for the hell of it, why not just test out a small section of it with som e A P ?
Can you even get it out of the canopy intact? How about som e p ics?
nbk2000 April 27th, 2006, 01:36 AM

There are m any patents that relate to the design of MDC a n d i t s u s e i n e m e r g e n c y e g r e s s s y s t e m s .
Searching the USPTO with the terms "detonating cord" and "m ild " results in 70 hits. And that's just since the mid-70 's.
Following the citations back, or using class search will results in hundreds of relevant patents.
And whatever happen ed to Go o g l e ? P e rhaps so meone ought to try searching THAT too?
T o o b a d s o m eone didn't do that first, BEFORE stepping on the m ine in the grass. :p
defiant April 27th, 2006, 03:38 AM

If electrical d etonation is sufficient, trial and error on a sm all pie ce will provide the answer your looking for.
Usin g capacitors of varying sizes m ight be helpful. :rolleyes:

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Yellow powder
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s_b_nilsen May 3rd, 2006, 01:29 PM

Hi. I have read a lot about this yellow powder, on this forum and other places.
I have tried it some times at home, and the results are extreme :D
As KNO3 we use Krista-K fertilizer bought at Felleskjpet (norway), calciumcarbonate is from a pottery, and sulfur from a drug
store.
I have a mini-kitchen which I use in my garage when testing this powder, and we use to put a _little_ teaspoon in a metal box,
put the heat on and see the reaction from the outside of the garage. This is extremely powerful if it melts good; one day we
took almost a whole teaspoon in the container, used a low heat (so that _all_ the powder melts) and waited outside (maybe 5-
6 metres away). It exploded heavily, and everyone got pain in the ears, and the guy who was standing closest got pain in the
stomach :P
But it is not very smart to make big portions of this, so we have tried to melt it without exploding it, so that we can light it with
a match afterwards. It works a little, but the reaction isnot even close to when it explodes while melting. It seems more like a
extremely fast deflagration with a "whoff", and not the intense "bang" when heated.
Is it even possible to melt this and light it afterwards and get the same reaction?
It is also very risky, I can find a heatvalue that works nice many times, but suddenly one portion explodes..
Does someone have some experience they want to share?
Alexires May 4th, 2006, 08:51 AM

Uhhh, I'm not to sure what to make of that.
First of all, read the rules about posting a new thread as your FIRST post.
....What is the Calcium Carbonate there to do?
*shrug* the reason it "explodes" when its near melting and you light it is probably because its so close to reacting it only
takes a little energy to do so, and hence it propagates alot faster than when its cool.
That didn't make alot of sense, but you should get the idea.
Read around a little more yeah?
s_b_nilsen May 4th, 2006, 04:17 PM

I ment potassium carbonate, not calcium carbonate, sorry about that.
Maybe I didn' explain this right.. This is the case:

When heated on an oven and melted, and you wait for the temperature to rise enough, it will explode heavily. This is cool, but
a little dangerous and not very practical.
Therefore, we are trying to lower the temperature a little, so that it melts, but not explodes. When it is melted, we take away
the heat-source and granulates the product. When this is ignited with a flame, it just burns really fast, so fast that you wont be
able to think before the reaction is over. But it still not produces the same "detonation" as it does when it is heated to
explotion. Do you see the problem?
I think I have read everything there is to read about this, on this forum, other forums, a couple of internet-pages etc, but I
still have not solved this.
Sorry if I misunderstood the rules about first post... I thought that when I posted my first post, it would be sent to an Admin,
and it would appear in the forum when the admin had approved my post..
nbk2000 May 4th, 2006, 06:02 PM

As a general rule, new members shouldn't make their first post as a new thread, since they tend to get banned for stupid
mistakes.
However, somtimes a newbie does post something interesting as a first post/new topic, in which case it gets approved.
But they still risk stepping on the mine in the grass, so it's not something we encourage.
Anyways, what ratios of KNO3/KCO3/S are you using? By weight, not volume, please.
Having read about this in the past in one of the PMJB books, the idea occured of filling pipe bombs with the powder, and
scattering them around a place that you'd be setting on fire.
As the heat of the fire reaches the pipe-bombs, the powder melts and explodes, making it too dangerous for fire-fighters to
approach, ensuring total destruction of the target.
No dangerous or complicated explosives need to be made beforehand, as the yellow powder is inert prior to melting, and
extremely simple to make. :)
I don't think this powder can detonate at less then melt temperatures, as it's not reactive enough at room temperature.
And, if I remember correctly, it was intended as a replacement for black powder, so it's not supposed to detonate anyways.
That was an undesired risk of the manufacturing process.
You could try shocking it with a detonator, and see if that worked. Or, get it hot enough to melt, then hit it with the detonator
while it's in a molten state. Presumably it melts at a temperature well below it's auto-ignition temp?
Have you tried casting it? It may detonate as a solid mass, but not as a granular powder, because shockwaves don't transmit
through powders as fast as a flame front can.
s_b_nilsen May 5th, 2006, 03:15 AM

I'm using 54.54% KNO3, 27.27% potassium carbonate and 18.19% sulfur.
I have tried to fill pipe-bombs with it, and that works great. But it's not possible to make use of it's full potensial, since some
of the powder will melt and explode, while most of it still not have melted, and then just burn.
Seems like it's impossible to get a practical product out of this...

But it's sure been fun playing with it. :p
(smilies here use lower-case letters, not UPPER-CASE like you've been using. And avoid multiple-postings...liable to get you
banned. NBK)
Kleng May 5th, 2006, 10:55 AM

Is it possible to use Sodium Bicarbonate? (baking soda)
I got a bag of Krista-K in my garage, I'm from Norway too. In addition an half kilo of sulfur and baking soda. This explosive
looks really interesting.
corrosive May 6th, 2006, 05:01 AM

Although this explosive sounds good, it has it's downsides. Including like a post earlier said, it has a tendency to transfer heat
horrible. Quick scenario, (as nbk posted earlier), burning building and there are pipe bombs scattered abroad, say 1.5"-2"
diameter and, 5"-8" lengths. When the pipe heats up the walls are really hot so only the powder touching the walls will be able
to transfer the temperature enough to give melt to the substance and cause explosion. So technically you get half or even
quarter of the possibility when it blows.
If this is actually what happens inside a pipe with this compound, you can maybe step it down a bit with little or no decrease in
power, instead of using 1.5"-2" diameter pipes... use 0.5" to 1.0" max, so you give the powder enough time so even the very
core melts, therefore you get full detonation and get your full result. What would be very fun to mess around with a couple
times. Get some .5" pipe with the length of about 2 feet or even longer if you wish, throw that in a fire capable of heating up
both ends equally and watch it go.
Sounds like a very intresting "shaped" charge if you will. Although this compound has it's uses, only under the extremist of
conditions will you need to use this. As there are better compounds available to put in its place. Because of its sheer simplicity,
it would be real pity to put this compound to rest in the endless archives of this forum, without a budge to mess with it. Maybe
we can work something out during its heated liquid properties to enhance the effects when it dries.
Question, what actually happens to the substance when you sucessfully melt it. Because as it is in powder form, its not as
dense as it would be say..in liquid form. When you sucessfully melt it, and it dries you've actually made it more dense. You
noted that it goes "Whoof" that sounds like unconfined whistle mix being KClO4:Sodium Benzoate (70/30) or, a simple flash
composition to me. Does it burn instantaniously or is it like modern gunpowder, it catches flame for a few seconds and its
done, more of a "pushing" manner.
BTW it would actually be a good idea to find out what temperature this mixture actually starts reaching melting point, then
slowly up it little by little to see when it detonates (doing this a few times). Judging by the 3 chemical melting points
(Wikipedia), KNO3 334C, KCO3 891C, and S 115C. The sulfur melts down first acting as a "reactor" and setting off the
compound, my personal guess would be around the temperatures of sulfur's melting point, plus:minus 20C. When this
information will be secured we wont have to fret while managing or casting this substance.
s_b_nilsen May 7th, 2006, 04:28 PM

Is it possible to use Sodium Bicarbonate? (baking soda)
I got a bag of Krista-K in my garage, I'm from Norway too. In addition an half kilo of sulfur and baking soda. This explosive
looks really interesting.
Where in Norway do you live?

I have read on this forum that you can use baking soda, but I have not tried it myself.
Anyways, I think it's cheaper and better to buy potassium carbonate. Here (http://www.hana-holmens.no/) you can buy 5 kg
potassium carbonate, it costs only 90 NOK. (about $15)
Corossive: It is very difficult to find the excact melting point.

I can do many successful meltings without explosion, but then it can suddenly explode. It seems that it is very unreliable...
corrosive May 7th, 2006, 05:51 PM

Well, theres always a way to check substance temperatures like this, a simple infrared thermometer. Now, I'm not making you
buy one, but their about as handy as a wrench is to a plumber. Prices range from $40-$500 maybe more. Here's a simple one
I found just to give you an example. Im gonna have to get me one of these soon, they measure temperature without
touching the substance, -33 to 220C. Its simple but it gets the job done down to 2C.
http://www.professionalequipment.com/xq/ASP/ProductID.2433/id.22/subID.177/qx/default.htm
Also, I'm still a bit questionable about what happens when you successfully melt the compound down, put a fuse in it, and let
it dry. What are the effects upon ignition, could you please describe them a little better? :)

When it's successfully melted, dried, granulated and lighted with a fuse, it just "whop"'s away. I can't see any flame, it just
makes an extremely fast "whop" and it's gone.
nbk2000 May 8th, 2006, 02:59 AM

Like Black Powder, not Smokeless (which just fizzles)?
And how fine the granulation?

Yes, something like black powder, just the reaction happens a lot faster.
But it is strange that the reaction which appears when it's lighted is so different from when it's heated (the reaction when
heated is much like a detonation)

Wow sounds pretty powerful to me, sometimes you can measure relative power by getting like a foot length cardboard tube
with like a 1 to 2 inch diameter. Now you can find one of these real quick, aluminum foil...when its used up your left with a
cardboard role..its not strong but we will get to that later, get about a gram or two sized amount and put that in the middle of
the tube. Light it either with a fuse through a poked hole..whatever.
Now the results can be either, it smokes out the sides or its so fast that it doesnt have time to get out the sides so it just rips
through the cardboard. If these tests are successful you can add a layer of tape, more cardboard, dry or glued if you have the
time, to see how strong it really is. But if its not successful, try to actually fill a ping pong ball with one of these then stick the
ball into the cardboard approximately in the middle. If these tests are successful, that is what I call "relatively powerful"
meaning its good to use in salutes, stars and such, mostly salutes because you always plug both ends of each salute and you
never want them to pop out, losing brisance.
It detonates when you heat it up because its reaching unstable temperatures of the oxidizer and catalyst, I guess it just
cannot handle the temperature and the energy holding the molecules is broken, and released with enormous energy.
Also,I have no idea why you need the potassium carbonate in this mixture, Someone asked this earlier and I cant find a reply.
One more thing, have you tried using the melted down granulated mix into a heavy cardboard salute, if you do have the time
you can quickly construct one and tell us how that goes, describe the brisance and shattering power, that'd be awesome
thanks.

I think the power is very, very good.
We filled a tube from a firework-battery (3-4 mm carton, 1-1.5 cm diameter) with a few grams of yellow powder. We did not
plug the holes, but when we lighted it, it made a "bang" and blew the carton to pieces..

Intresting results, this actually sounds like a very nice salute mixture, congratulations you have a "relatively powerful" mixture
:) .
I wonder if you can modify it in anyway, in terms of adding more things to gain say, power.

It is indeed a powerful mixture, but compared to the results when heated, it is a bit disappointing...

I've just discovered there are more threads concerning this "fulminating powder" it is pretty common and it is said you can
melt the carbonate and sulfur together, dry it and granulate it, then just powder in the KNO3. It truly detonate's when heated
on a small spoon, this is very interesting. Also when granulated very fine it gives amazing brisance with miniscule amounts. I
think this a good salute mixture if you have the time and energy to prepare it.
One downside I noticed and read. The Potassium Carbonate is very hygroscopic so before preparation its best to dry it out
then you can melt it down, and this also means you cannot store the finished mix simply as it is more hygroscopic then
NH4NO3.
Other then writing all this down on paper and saving it in my folder of upcoming projects, I will have to try this myself in the
near future.

I am aware of the threads in this forum.
I have tried to melt the sulfur/carbonate together, but it can explode even without KNO3 (not that powerful, but it can explode)
Kleng May 9th, 2006, 10:55 AM

What if you don't melt it? Only grind it very much inn a ball mill? Would this be danger or could it be done without risks? If
not, grinding sulfur and KNO3 together and then add grinded Potassium Carbonate?
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 9th, 2006, 09:58 PM

Given the ignition problems in powdered form, what if you melted it, cast it with a hollow core, and used a fast, hot burning
substance such as fine mesh MG + Ammonium nitrate in the core? Maybe thermite?

Kleng: That would not work. The point by melting this, is that the sulfur and potassiumcarbonate will react, and make
polysulfides.
ShadowMyGeekSpace: Yes, I have been thinking about this, or maybe use some kind of detonator to ignite this...
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 10th, 2006, 05:45 AM

You wouldn't want to detonate anything, a deflagration would be more suited to heating the whole substance at once I would
think - keeping it within its confined atmosphere during heating. A detonation could be too fast of a reaction destroying that
confinement, and thus reducing enviornmental pressure on the yellow powder when it starts to detonate, as well as moving the
yellow powder away from the heat source at a higher velocity.
By giving it a core and heating from there with flash or something , you might beable to achive heating all of the yellow powder
while keeping it contained for maximum effectiveness.
I could see a detonation working in the situation where the core was composed of yellow powder and was surrounded by
something else, like a shaped charge encompassing the whole of the yellow powder. Even something simple BP would
probably do the trick.

Maybe you've right..
Anyways, with a heating core of thermite/flash, some of the simplicity of this compound disapperars.. I don't think I will find a
practical use of this.

If your having ignition problems, try KNO3 + Sugar. That burns fairly hot in a 50/50 (weight) ratio.
If you dissolve the sugar and KNO3 in water and then evaporate the water leaving you with a fast burning, hot powder.
ShadowMyGeekSpace May 11th, 2006, 08:13 PM

Not as hot as MG + an oxidizer.... just go to walmart and buy one of the little "fire starter" blocks from the camping/sporting
goods section, its a block of magnesium with some flint shoved on it...... it's what I use for MG :)
++++++
What's wrong with the above post?
Correct or be banned.
NBK
++++++
Post corrected, sorry.
ShadowMyGeekSpace
Cube1 May 11th, 2006, 10:57 PM

you have to melt it without ingnit it so you cant melt it with bp
there has to be a reaktion betwen the S and the K2CO3
2 K2CO3 + 2 S ---> 2 K2S + 2 CO2 + O2
this can fourther reakt with the kno3
2 K2CO3 + 2 S ---> 2 K2S + 2 CO2 + O2
then it is two times faster as every flash composition
here is a vid of
14g yellow powder (http://home.arcor.de/kinger2/vids/14g%20Yellow%20powder/).
++++
Since you contributed something to the discussion, you weren't immediately banned for extremely poor grammer.
Improve rapidly or continue contributing every post, otherwise you'll be banned for it.
NBK

The problem is not to ignite it..
The problem is that if it is ignited by a flame, it only delfagrates, but when heated and melted, it detonates ;)
Kleng May 13th, 2006, 01:39 PM

What about if you put some yellow powder on a standar pan, thereafter you put a KNO3/sugar "smokebomb" under the pan
and ignite it with a long fuse? It would melt because of the heat and probably detonate.
FUTI May 15th, 2006, 08:17 AM

Polysulfides are bitchy substance to play with, but considering the fact people here play with peroxides I don't think that will
stop them.
Mixing two salts with one common ion can make mixture that have melting point different from the salts it is made of usually
lower (which is good in my opinion). I would try to use K2CO3 (not KCO3 as someone wrote above arghhh!) and Na2CO3
(baking soda can be used but must be calcinated before) and find their mixure that melts at lowest temperature and fuse it,
cool it, grind it and mix in sulfur and fuse it again. That should give good mixture to be pulverised and mixed with KNO3.
Maybe a linen thread soaked with KNO3 and sugar and coated with a piece of plastics can make good melting/igniting device if
you place it in center of tube filled with "yellow powder".
nbk2000 May 21st, 2006, 08:34 PM

Another use for yellow powder comes to mind - anti-torch barrier material for safes.
Small amounts of the mixed, but unfused, powder are encapsulated in metal tubing, and embedded in the concrete safe wall
material.
When someone tries to cut it with a torch or lance...BOOM!
Mangled thief, damaged or destroyed torch/lance, and a definite alarm. :p
nathan June 7th, 2006, 07:56 PM

I tested the yellow powder using sodium bicarbonate instead of potassium carbonate. My results were disappointing.
I mixed the correct amounts (substituting NaHCO3 for K2CO3 of course) and then ball milled them for 5 hours. I tried to ignite
the ball milled mixture, but all I got was a bit of smoldering.
When I put 1 tsp in a tin can and let it sit on a burner all the reaction I got was a popping sound and the spewing of burning
sulfur in the air. I tried a tablespoon of the mixture in the can and got similar results, except the noise was slightly louder and
more mixture was spewed into the air.
I tried fusing the mixture and then granulating it but the best result I got was a BP-like burn rate.
KMnO4 July 10th, 2006, 09:24 AM

At http://www.experimente.org/Knallpulver.htm you can see a video of 14g of yellow powder being heated on a metal plate
over a bunsen burner untill it goes off.
BlackSky July 12th, 2006, 08:15 PM

Nathan .... I think when they said that Sodium Bicarbonate can be used ... they meant to convert the bicarbonate into
Carbonate by dissolving it in water and then boiling it of about 100*C for a 10 minutes. Then , let it dry. It will become Sodium
Carbonate . Then you can use the resulted Sodium Carbonate instaed of using Potassium Carbonate.
By the way , I didn't tried to make Yellow powder before but I've read alot about it.
c.Tech July 15th, 2006, 01:02 AM

Bla ck Sky - to co nvert bicarbonates to carbonate s yo u don t have to diss olve them in water, just heat as hot a s yo u can get it.
I would just buy it from the supermarket as washing soda.
BlackSky August 5th, 2006, 09:05 AM

Thanks c.Tech for the info.
By the way , Does anyone tried to detonate Yellow Powder the same way of detonating ANFO ?
Maybe it can be detonated the same way . Thus , It will be easier in preparing than ANFO and also more powerful .
pearlcrash911 August 12th, 2006, 12:00 PM

What about using sterno?
You could cut cardboard to make supports on both sides to elevate a pipe bomb, and then place a fused can of sterno
underneath.
Not only would it react as it would in a fire, but you would also have a bit of a delay.
waauu September 14th, 2006, 01:30 PM

Can you melt the carbonate with the sulfur, before mixing it with the nitrate? It sounds a little bit dangerous to melt them
together. Has anybody tried it?
I will try that maby tonight, and I will use sodium nitrate and sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3).
{Watch your grammar. This is your first, last, and only warning - megalomania}
Sausagemit October 25th, 2006, 03:43 AM
I just tested about 7 grams of "yellow powder" with the bottom of a pop can and a propane torch. The suspense was killing me
because I wanted to see what the hell it was doing!! It was worth the wait though. I saw the mangled remains of the pop can
flying every which way and a fairly loud report.
What I'm thinking about trying is a taking a pipe that transmits heat well (copper is the most likely culprit) and then making a
CaSO4 AL cast incideary around the pipe. It might be more trouble than what it's worth and it may not even go off.
The thing that is bothering me is will this stuff melt quicker when packed or loose?
sparkchaser November 10th, 2006, 02:58 PM

So I was thinkin'. Some of the model rocketeers out there using the KClO3/sugar fuel that is so well known are, instead of
melting it for a casting, disolving the above completely in water, drying it in the oven at low temp., and using as is (it's very
plastic while warm, and can be formed).
Since a solid transfers shock easier than powder, use an AP detonator on the resulting block or sheet. Failing that, it could
easily be granulated from its solid state.
Cindor November 10th, 2006, 10:26 PM

The rocket mixture "so well known" is KNO3/Sugar, no KClO3... don't try to melt KClO3/Sugar mixture.
c.Tech November 10th, 2006, 10:58 PM

I've heard there are pyro's out there that have has success with NaClO3/sugar rockets.
sparkchaser November 11th, 2006, 11:20 AM

Whoops! friends don't let friends drink and post!:o
Anyways, KClO3 is soluble in water (7.3g/100ml).

Calcium Carbonate...... poorly soluble/ breaks down to become calcium hydroxide + CO2.
Sulfur...... poorly soluble.
I'm guessing that it won't work, but that's just a hunch.:rolleyes:
Universal November 11th, 2006, 08:35 PM

What about if you put some yellow powder on a standar pan, thereafter you put a KNO3/sugar "smokebomb" under the pan
and ignite it with a long fuse? It would melt because of the heat and probably detonate.
This wouldn't be ideal, the thing is it would heat up too fast causing it to catch alight before it melted, this results in the
powder "merely" burning (slowly too) and making lots of SO2. The best way to do it is an electric element on a relatively low
heat, that is if you're willing to do that sort of thing to your element:D .
Anyway, I made some yellow powder earlier with homemade Na2CO3 and it worked well. I found that although it makes a
bigger report in larger quantities, it is much more efficient to do it in lower amounts, and also it is a much cleaner, sharper
report in lower amount. I did 10g and it went: ffft-BANG-shhh. And Then I tried 2g, and it went: BANG, but wasn't as loud.
By the way, does anyone know the products of yellow powder. I am guessing that it is KNO3 + K2CO3 + S --> KNO2 + CO2 +
K2S.
I'm sure there are many answers as it is with black powder.
Cindor November 11th, 2006, 10:11 PM

10 grams makes more BANG than 2 grams... make a comparasion with flash powder and heard what happens... 10 grams are
much more louder than 5 times 2 grams BANG.
Universal November 12th, 2006, 12:01 AM

Sorry about saying the stuff about 10g being worse. I made up a new 'proper' batch with much more precise measurements
and purer K2CO3 and the report was deafening, it blew up the steel container it was in with ease. I also tried 2 grams and it
was pretty much the same as the older stuff I made but it went off faster.
DONMAN December 10th, 2006, 03:14 AM

I made some of that today. I first melted the S and the Na2CO3 together then added the KNO3. I notice that the mixture of
the S and the Na2CO3 gives off a weird natural gass smell even after it's cooled. What is this smell? Is it some weird H2S?
The powder works... but what is that stink. Anyone elese had similar experiances?
Universal December 10th, 2006, 05:03 AM

It isn't 'H2S' because there isn't H2 in the reaction. Maybe it is CS2 or small amounts of SO2. But you never know, sulfur on
it's own has little to no smell, t is actually H2S in small quantities. The stuff used in natural gas to make it smell is a thiol,
which all smell bad, called methanethiol or mercaptan CH4S.
Making yellow powder I have never had this problem, remember just because there is no KNO3 when the Na2CO3 and S are
mixed doesn't mean they won't react, don't get it too hot.
Cindor December 10th, 2006, 05:10 AM

Is Na2CO3 not NA2CO3, and is H2S not SH2.
DONMAN December 10th, 2006, 05:05 PM

My bad, I need to stop posting so late at night. :) I didn't clean my grinder throughly and the mix could have contained
maybe 1-2 percent carbon, when I went to heat it on my hot plate on low. I was doing this out side under a shed in the rain....
so I thought that maybe some moisture could have been sucked from the air causing some sort of H2 to interfere. That is why
I suggested that it could have been H2S.....
This wikipedia article backs me up "H2S arises from virtually anywhere where elemental sulfur comes into contact with organic
material, especially at high temperatures." I might of had some charcoal in the mix, this could have been the cause for the
H2S. Wikipedia also says that it corrodes copper pennies... So I am going to test it by taping a copper penny to the lid of the
jar and seal it over night.
When you just burn the mix does anyone get molten sulfer left over? If not, do I need to add more Na2CO3? So that the Na
can form Na2S?
Universal December 11th, 2006, 01:02 AM

Try getting the gas in a jar with only some CuSO4 in it, shake it, if it is H2S then there will be a blackish precipitate of CuS.
Also Na2CO3 reacts with S like so:
2K2CO3 + 8 S --> K2S3 + K2S4 + 2CO2 + SO2
So it looks like SO2 is the culprit however hydrolysis of K2S3 will make H2S so it is a combined force.
DONMAN December 16th, 2006, 01:07 AM

My penny corroded.... that means there was defiantly some H2S. It was almost black after 5 days.

Sulfur always produces some H2S in contact with air.
Universal December 16th, 2006, 11:52 PM

That is the reason for it's smell. Also doesn't copper react directly with Sulfur, I know silver does.
Also a question, would yellow powder with NaOH substituted for the Na2CO3, as NaOH heated with S forms polysulfides,
wouldn't it work well, I know it would be hygroscopic but I wouldn't plan to keep any over time.

Also a question, would yellow powder with NaOH substituted for the Na2CO3, as NaOH heated with S forms polysulfides,
IIRC NaOH reacts with sulfur to from a sulfide, I could be wrong though.
chemist646 May 24th, 2007, 08:48 AM

Yeah, I done this before with sodium hydrogen carbonate, suphur and potassium nitrate.
Burns pretty fast, but nothing spectacular really. It does make quite a bang if you heat though, on a spoon or something. The
potassium nitrate and suphur however, were not melted together so maybe this has an effect on the burn rate.
SEQUENCER June 15th, 2007, 10:30 PM

Sounds like a good way to destroy a car engine, if one had some means of filling a container the size of shoe polish and
attaching it to an engine block by means of a magnet. It probably wouldn't penetrate the block itself but could disable the
vehicle by destroying less dense parts ie hoses, the battery, wires. Just a thought.
Zer4tul July 5th, 2007, 03:37 AM

I recently tried this 'yellow powder' with sodium carbonate from the pool chemical isle.
As you all have found out it makes quite a bang when heated. A small pipe was filled with about 10 or so Grams and was
placed on/in a padlock. I then put a pencil torch under the assembly and let it sit for a couple minutes. With quite a large
explosion, it destroyed the metal loop on the padlock (sorry if it has a name) that locks it to whatever.
Might have the potential of a lockbuster that one could casually walk away from and comeback when ready. :rolleyes:
Rbick July 5th, 2007, 01:46 PM

Well I guess that would work if you had limited options. But why not just place a 4g charge of PETN initiated by .2g AP in a
paper tube or straw and completely obliterate the lock? I don't think it would even take 4g to do it. Wouldn't the metal tube
add too much shrapnel for just trying to open a lock? And what happens to the pen torch?
It doesn't seem like a bad idea if you are limited on options, but there are many alternatives that are more safe and easier.
Even KClO4/Al flash powder works in a paper tube against weaker locks. I opened one of those cheap safes easily with 4g of
flash powder. It actually shot the locking mechanism through the back wall of the safe. Or you could fill the lock with liquid
explosive and detonate that with a small amount of primary. Sorry I'm a little off topic, but I think it applies.
Secong Nature October 29th, 2007, 06:26 PM

The way I see 'yellow powder' is either as an alternative to black powder for pyro's who cannot, for some reason get charcoal.
Another use would be for a booster for something like ANFO when the powder is melted and detonated.
Also would it be possible for me to use Li2CO3, as this is the only carbonate I can readily get.
Charles Owlen Picket October 30th, 2007, 10:40 AM

I think the fascinating thing here is that there is the use of the term "detonate" on exposure to heat (see Davis). There is the
element of self-containment explosive reaction that exists for the criteria for detonation; but we know that there is much more
than self containment as regards that definition. IF memory serves, this is where some authors interchange the terms
"explode" and "detonate" (& it makes me crazy).
How fast DOES it shoot? Most likely in the low 1200mps range (if that). This assumption was made by Shmizu in a paper on
burst charges where he thought that higher levels of speed are unnecessary for shell burst, etc. {Highest level of speed for
deflagerants; from a series of white papers published both privately & from Propellants & Pyrotechnics.}
Would yellow powder initiate a secondary? Personally, I doubt it; but it could initiate a select sensitive one [as BP had w/ NG...]
Is a carbonate pivotal in the reaction & if so why? This (IMO) is the interesting portion of this material.
PeterB2 October 30th, 2007, 12:07 PM

Li2CO3?!? You are able to obtain this OTC cheaply? That seems like it would be exhorbitantly expensive...why not just use
washing soda (Na2CO3) found at any grocery store or pool store?
What is your source of Li2CO3?
nbk2000 October 30th, 2007, 12:23 PM

Probably a pool chemical, as I've seen it there before, though it's only like 6% of the active ingredients.
PeterB2 October 30th, 2007, 04:25 PM

Hmm...are you sure it wasn't lithium hypochlorite? I've seen that as an alternative (but expensive) shock agent called "lithium
shock" (don't think its 100%). I can't imagine why using Li2CO3 would be an advantage though, assumedly for acting as a pH
up agent...
Secong Nature October 31st, 2007, 02:30 AM

I can get the lithium carbonate from a pottery store (some glaze I suppose), it's called just lithium carbonate so I'm assuming
high purity stuff.
Though I'm assuming a high price due to it's rarity and probably sparing use in ceramics.
s_b_nilsen October 31st, 2007, 05:03 AM

Another use would be for a booster for something like ANFO when the powder is melted and detonated.
This would probably not work in the real world.
To set off this explosive you have to melt it, and it is "detonated" when it reaches a certain temperature. But the powder
closest to the heatings source will melt faster, and then just some of the powder "detonates", and then lights the rest of the
powder, which deflagrates. So it is very hard/impossible to set off larger quantities of yellow powder.
And as Charles Owlen Picket; How fast does it shoot?
Charles Owlen Picket October 31st, 2007, 10:31 AM

And as Charles Owlen Picket; How fast does it shoot?
To the best of my understanding it does not exceed contained deflagerant compositions (max 900-1200mps) which would
raise doubt about the concept of detonation [albeit this occurs through self-containment with "yellow powder"].
Barnacles November 10th, 2007, 10:26 PM

This is just a brainfart not sure if it has been mentioned but, anyone think of making a pipe bomb with a heating coil that is
coiled inside the pipe it should make contact with much greater portions of the powder, with external heating you may just get
all of it. Maybe use a coil that gets red hot or even 100 ft of nichrome wire or something just putting some thoughts forward.
EDIT this could have the added benifit of spraying red hot metal all over...

This would be ideal for preventing fire suppression efforts in an arson attack, as you can get the ingredients with no problem,
mix and transport the filled pipe-bombs with zero risk, and leave them scattered about in the target to get heated in the
arson fire, and prevent fire fighters from getting near it. :)
Thermiteisfun November 11th, 2007, 01:47 AM

Oh my... If you have a length of nichrome wire coiled in a pipe with this mix, all you would need is an analog watch for a timer
and a suitable power supply!
Run the nichrome up the minute hand, the pos (or neg) terminal to the hour for a 1 hour 5 min timer.
You could use a regular house current if you take the wire from a toaster! Good idea shadow!
Edit: Brain storm idea... to make the heater element you could coil the nichrome around a paper tube half the diameter of the
planned container for equal heating.
Barnacles November 11th, 2007, 11:34 PM

Just curious does anyone off hand know the temperature of a hot exhaust pipe from a car, and the rough detonation
temperature is of this product( I should clarify, I mean as what temperature is needed to make this powder detonate or make
it capable of detonation)? Sorry to go off topic again , but I had another brain fart, as a product like this actually seems
useless at first but upon further brainstorming seems to have endless practical or impractical (which isnt always impractical
lol)applications.
Anyway I was thinking of several Ideas, involving this, for sabotage, this stuff could be put in a tail pipe, around the brakes of
a car, or in the brake drum, or any part of a car that gets hot. I also wonder if it could be detonated via stuffing the tip of a
christmas light with it and attaching it to a power source, and this could make for a safe detonator, that has no chance of
detonating while it is in transport(at least by accident).
I could even see ovens or toasters being rigged, either for specific targeting or even random terrorism via tampering of store
bought products. The uses of this are endless, all you have to find are ways of heating this remotely or getting your target(s)
to heat it for you.
Sorry if this is off topic. I will try to stay more on topic in the future as I really appreciate these forums and wish to stay
around.

A great deal depends on the type of motor, the exhaust manifold, and the design. Easily 300 C, you could depend on that;
I'm pretty sure.

Don't quote me on this figure, but I seem to remember reading about exhaust temperatures required to get the catalytic
converter to work resulting in the tailpipe reaching about 400 degrees. Again, I may be way off, and I can't even say if that is
C or F degrees.
ex1ge November 13th, 2007, 12:38 PM

Catalytic converters start working at around 450 degrees celsius, with temperatures rising to upwards of 900 degrees.
Yafmot January 20th, 2008, 02:01 AM

I spent six years designing cats at an aerospace metals development company down in LA. Ya' Wanna' warm up a cat? Just
loosen a sparkplug wire. A cat acts like an afterburner, cooking Hydrocarbons and CO into CO2 & water. Send in a jug's worth
of unburned fuel, along with the extra Oxygen from the "smog Pump" (actually just an air pump), and that sucker will get hot
enough to shift the Alpha Alumina washcoat to a Gamma phase (which glazes it over), and fuse the Cordierite substrate into a
solid blob.
This happens at around 1500F. (Hot enough for you?)
Naturally, this is going to be more noticable with a four banger, less so with a six, and with a V-8, they probably won't figure it
out until it's too late.
I jumped from the second page to the 8th, so maybe it's already been discussed, but why not think about a pyrotechnic heat
source? I'm thinking maybe something on the order of a downscaled tube & shell heat exchanger, sort of like those
locomotive boilers where the hot gases from the firebox are routed through parrallel tubes in the water.
If you could get the burn rate and caloric content right, it would heat the comp pretty much isothermally. Maybe one set of
tubes could bring it up to the liquid state, and a second set would put it over the top. Just a thought.
gliper April 12th, 2008, 06:35 AM

Has any one tried sodium PERcarbonate-carbonate mix like SUN oxy cleaner? It seems like I could just use less nitrate
because of the extra O.
Any idea on the ratio of sodium PERcarbonate to carbonate in said cleaner?
frontier27 April 18th, 2008, 03:45 AM

This is my first post, I will try to give some insight on yellow powder. I have been an avid poster on rec.pyrotechnics for years.
However, first I want to make sure you all are not referring to a powder that was patented to be a replacement in black powder
muzzle loaders. I might have misread a previous post, but I was not aware Dr. Shimizu, who invented H3 even used yellow
powder as a burst in shells. If true, thats very interesting. In its unheated deflagrating form it sounds as if its a black powder
substitute. I just want to make sure that I am not getting this confused with golden powder.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Oxygen/Acetylene
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Knoxville August 8th, 2006, 01:02 PM

I saw a friend of mine this weekend make a 5 gallon oxy/actylene bomb. For the time involved and cost of the gas, it was one heck of an explosion. He placed a 55 gallon
drum upside down on the bucket and used an electric spark to ignite. It launced the 55 gallon drum almost 60 feet into the air. I was just amazed!!! Now I'm curious as to how
violent of an explosion this was. Anyone have any number or info on the resulting explosion from mixing Oxygen/Acetylene in a true 50/50 mixture? VOD? Thanks in advance.
Kleng August 8th, 2006, 02:49 PM

1 part Acetylene and 2 parts Oxygen I guess.
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 8th, 2006, 05:49 PM

Why 1:2 ratio? The optimum burn ratio is 1:1.1-1:1.5, or for simplicity 1:1.
edit:
Never mind. I'm thinking of the optimum ratio for welding(1:1.1-1:1.5), not explosive power.
Cindor August 8th, 2006, 06:39 PM

I've read that betw een 3% and 87% of acetylene in a closed area is explosive.
ShadowMyGeekSpace August 8th, 2006, 07:29 PM

I've read that betw een 3% and 87% of acetylene in a closed area is explosive.There's a big difference inbetween 3% and 87%, and we're looking for the optimum ratio of fuel
to air/oxygen.
lucas August 8th, 2006, 07:58 PM

Easiest way is to light the torch, adjust for a neutral flame and then snuff. The cone should be convex and the should be no obvious feather to the flame. If the cone is concave
or deformed the flame is oxidising and if there is a feather around the cone then there is excess fuel.
Chris The Great August 8th, 2006, 10:06 PM

Um, guys, let's think about this.
2C2H2 + 5O2 -> 4CO2 + 2H2O
2 acetylene : 5 oxygen by volume for maximum energy release. Simple.
shooter3 August 9th, 2006, 12:22 AM

Word of caution; I've made these for over 30 years and last Fall I had my first accident(posted on another thread). I had one go off in my hand.
Lucky for me I was just starting to fill the bag. I'm 90% sure that it was caused by the plastic bag sparking as the tw o sides of the bag separated(It was a very dry fall day).
Fill the container remotely if possible. If it's small, and you simply have to fill the bag by hand, pre fill it w ith air and put a spoon of salty water in and shake.That should short
out any static electricity.
Knoxville August 9th, 2006, 09:16 AM

I've read about various methods of filling a container to put the oxy/acetylene in, but have not read my method on here. I fill my containers pretty accurately to 1:1 ratio. I
have never used any sort of bags as a container for the gas. I alw ays use a 20oz soda pop bottle, 2L bottles, gallon milk jugs, 2.5 gallon jugs, or on a froggy day, a 5 gallon
bucket. Next to where our welding equipment is, we have a 30 gallon trough to throw hot parts into to cool dow n after cutting or a little welding. If a person w as the use the 2L
bottle, they w ould fill the bottle w ith water and place the original cap back onto it. Hold the bottle under the water in the tank and remove the cap. Turn on only the oxygen and
place the tip in the water and the nozzle up in the bottle. This has to be done with the bottom of the bottle parallel with the top of the water. You can draw a mark on your
container or just eye ball where you think half is. The oxygen bubbles will force the water out of the bottle and push it back into the trough. Once half full, put the cap back on
or have someone turn the oxygen off and turn the acetylene on. Repeat process until all water is forced from the container. This is done under w ater so it does minimize static
electricity.
FullMetalJacket August 11th, 2006, 04:46 AM

Unfortunately I forget the precise ratio, but it was quite a small percentage of C2H2, and in that ratio the mixture would detonate as a HE.
Jacks Complete August 11th, 2006, 08:01 PM

Just blow into the plastic bag, your breath will be more than enough to deal w ith the static.
The 3% to 87% mix is too wide, I think. That's more like Hydrogen's range.
Acetylene will explosively blow itself and its container to bits, even w ithout oxygen. Just beat or drop an acetylene cylinder. They often explode hours later.
nbk2000 August 12th, 2006, 06:10 AM

Giving it a dusting of graphite dust, or a spray of anti-static, would be very prudent, and doesn't introduce any moisture into the reaction.
In fact, putting some metal powder of a combustible nature in the bag would be an extra. ;)
Thorr August 12th, 2006, 07:54 AM

Um, guys, let's think about this.
2C2H2 + 5O2 -> 4CO2 + 2H2O
2 acetylene : 5 oxygen by volume for maximum energy release. Simple.
wrong, you must work out the atomic mass of the reactants before making any sort of assumption on percentage ratios.
2(24+2) + 5(32)
52 + 160 < 52 +160= 212)
therefore
52/212 160/212
=0.2453... =0.7547...
<multiply by 100 and round off to get percentage ratios>
--> 25 : 75
-->this comes out as a 1:3 ratio
another_number August 13th, 2006, 03:17 PM

wrong, you must work out the atomic mass of the reactants before making any sort of assumption on percentage ratios.
Apparently you've never heard of gas law s before? All you need is the equation and under ideal circumstances your ratio is done.
C2H2 + 5/2 O2 --> 2 CO2 + H20
1 litre of acetylene for 2.5 litres of oxygen gas.
++ ++++ =
Ratios by volume or by weight?
There can be two different answers to the same question, both of which are correct.
NBK
another_number August 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM

Ratios by volume or by weight?
There can be two different answers to the same question, both of which are correct.
NBK
Kind of complicated to get the mass of gas, but true. My apologies to Thorr, as I didn't realise he was doing the ratio by mass.
Ricky August 16th, 2006, 02:50 PM

There is some info here, you need calcium carbide to obtain a volume of acetylene by ratio from calcium carbide and water.
calcium carbide, 64,10 g/mol
CaC2 + 2 H2O => C2H2 + Ca(OH)2
It`s easy, place some calcium carbide in a beaker and with a funnel some distilled H2O is dropped into the beaker. I belive the process is a little bit exotermic.

Yeah, but just a little bit...nothing considerable if you use a little bit extra water... a good one is: instead of water use hidrogen peroxide, highly concentrated... then you got
C2H2 + O2 in the same conteiner with just one step, since H2O2 decomposed giving O2 and water, and the water with the CaC2 gives you acetylene :D
Sausagemit August 17th, 2006, 12:45 AM

I never thought of using H2O2 and CaC2 before, sounds interesting and dangerous. :D
I bet one could make a very simple and effective device out of H2O2 and CaC2 if one were so inclined. What I w ould do is take a 2 liter bottle, drill a small hole in the the top,
insert a w ire for ignition (and of course silicone the crap out of the hole so no leakage occurs). Rig up something to drop the carbide into the H2O2 w hen you w ant too. Suck
most of the air out of the bottle and have fun. In fact, I may try this if I can find my CaC2.
The only problem I can think of is the H2O2 screw ing with the ignitor. Has anybody dipped nichrome wire ignitors in wax or some other form of waterproofing with any degree
of success?
Calcium Carbide is fun to screw around with to any degree though. For such things as starting fires with w ater, putting in toilets with soap and then lighting them and thus
creating a flaming toilet, ect.

When I use Cac2 and H2O2 I do this:
Take some stones of carbide (the sharper the best) and put then in a bottle, and put a ballon with 75 - 100 ml 30% Hperoxide inside the bottle, but not touching the carbide,
hanging from the neck and close it.
Previously you need to drill a hole, and put 2 wires w ith a waterproof charge (I use flash pow der), and close it w ith some epoxy or somthing.
At the time you wanna use it you just open it, let the ballon fall slowly, close it and shake it. Wait a couple of seconds and shoot.
Is not a perfect burning, but it will make a very big shockwave.
NoltaiR August 18th, 2006, 08:04 AM

While I am sure you guys could debate proper equation balancing all day.. I used to play with this stuff back in the day and I w ould have to agree w ith the 1:3 ratio.
And as elementary as the whole oxygen/acetlyene mix is, anyone who has actually seen it explode has a respect for it. There is not a whole lot of purpose this explosive can be
used for since it is a gas and requires considerable more volume than it's solid or liquid counterparts.
...but it sure is fun to watch :)
An interesting idea would be (although this could be VERY dangerous if you are not careful) to take 2 large, durable balloons. Fill one balloon w ith a small amount of gasoline..
small meaning in relation to the total volume of the balloon. Then stick the other balloon inside of it and fill with oxygen/acetlyne mix.
So what you end up with (assuming this idea actually is possible outside of my imagination) is a very simple FAE. Someone should try this.. the only problem I see is the
gasoline trying to come out as you fill the inner balloon w ith the gaseous mixture.
But if this does work.. I could forsee some very large explosions.. especially if you enriched the oxygen ratios to compensate for the added amount of fuel.
FU TI August 18th, 2006, 10:11 AM

*me thinking about this*
1. acetylene has widest range in w hich it can explode in mixture w ith air from 2 % to 85% IIRC
2. acetylene is also known for its nasty ability to be prone to explode under high pressure even alone (that is why they add acetone and other stuff to the high pressure
containers)
3. if you mix above proposed components in high pressure container (I guess above 20atm will be fine)...it w ill generate acetylene and oxygen (and do not forget the
heat)...pressure will rise...*something might burst*...please post a video/picture if you test this
In one of my first posts I had similar idea with carbide but I didn't propose usage of H2O2...that is w hy I like this forum, this can be interesting idea Cindor...what does Merck
index say about compatibility of those substances, or is it even stupid to ask :)?
Ricky August 18th, 2006, 02:58 PM

Yes there is definately a problem there, lab equipment is advised for the carbide process if you bubble acetytyene through any solution. Water is poison for that. 100 g CaC2 will
give around 26 litre acetylene.
It looks interesting, CaC2 and H2O2 for a dangerous acetylene/oxygen mix.
vod8750 September 14th, 2006, 08:41 PM

I worked in a fabrication company out in the countryside for a while and now and again when I'd be alone in the workshop (which w asnt very often) I'd fill 500ml plastic bottles
with oxy/acetylene mix and throw them in a fire. I found the best way to fill them was to fill the bottles with water first, hold the bottle upside down so the opening is
underwater then stick the torch into the opening underwater and turn on the gas. That w ay you know that all the gas in the bottle is the stuff you need.
I experimented w ith a few ratios(roughly): 75%acelylene/25%oxygen, 50:50 and 25acetylene/75oxygen. If i remember right the 25:75(more oxygen) ratio gave the loudest
bang when it w as just thrown into a fire. Even then it was only just louder than a bp banger!
I obviously would have got way better results if I had an elecrical ignitor inside the bottle or a fuse or something like that but I just didnt have them convenient at the time. I
havnt tried it since though!
Another time I tried to make a pressure bomb using w ater and CaC2 in a 500ml soft drink bottle and igniting the generated acetylene after with a tin can of burning petrol
beside it.
The only problem was that there wasnt enough generated acetylene to burst the bottle so after a while I just said to hell with it and used a long stick to spill the burning petrol
over the bottle since acetylene is explosive under pressure. When the fire burned through the bottle or heated the acetylene to the right temperature(I dont know which) I got a
really loud bang and a quick flash of fire. I've got the whole thing on video!:D
Only thing is other than how loud it w as I didnt get any other signs of how powerful it was as I did it on grass on level ground! Has anyone any idea of how powerful acetylene
under pressure really is? Does it have to be ignited by a spark in the pressurised container and does it have to be under a certain pressure to be truly explosive?
FullMetalJacket September 19th, 2006, 09:56 AM

Vod: That is so incredibly unsafe I don't want to think about it.
Bert September 19th, 2006, 01:04 PM

I learned the hard way about the dangers of this mix. So have many others.
http://darw inawards.com/personal/personal2002-29.html
http://tinyurl.com/gxld5
I would not use this again.
megalomania September 19th, 2006, 02:17 PM

One of the maintenance guys where I work told me he used to work at another plant where this guy would craw l up onto a machine and fall asleep. One day they filled tw o of
the very large 60 gallon plastic trash bags with acetylene and oxygen from a welding torch and let it drift up. I forget how they said they had them timed for ignition, a cigarette
maybe, but they both floated up on either side and blew up within a second of each other.
Apparently he was so scared he almost jumped off the machine, only to find about 20 guys standing around at the bottom laughing at him. Doing w hat comes naturally to a
man caught sleeping and made the butt of a joke, he almost started a fight.
Let this be a lesson to you; company executives only work from 10-4, 10-2 on Fridays, so there is no one around to hassle the night shift :)
Jacks Complete September 19th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Mega, low er executives are always on 'duty', having sold their souls to the company, but they never actually work!
Calcium carbide is about the greatest thing ever. I think I still have some stashed someplace.
vod8750 September 21st, 2006, 12:08 PM

Wow thanks Bert! I dont think I'll be doing that again!
Although the plastic bottles took about 10 seconds to explode after they got thrown in the fire so in that time I w as a good 50m or more aw ay. I wouldnt even think about using
a garbage bag as my container! I'd be scared stiff of static!
And I did use a very long stick to knock over the can of petrol and again it took a good 10 seconds or more to explode so I had plenty of time to put some distance(and
concrete) betw een the bottle and me!
IronMongrel September 26th, 2006, 10:03 PM

An interesting article from the 1911 Britanica with reference to the explosive power of liquified acetylene
http://ww w.1911encyclopedia.org/Acetylene
When I was at college doing my c&g in oxy/acetylene we where taught that the oxygen bottle w as the real menace.
CreepingEagle October 9th, 2006, 12:19 AM

I'm 90% sure that it was caused by the plastic bag sparking as the tw o sides of the bag separated(It was a very dry fall day).
What about using a lubricated condom? I know they can blow up fairly easy....and I'm no chemist, but w ouldnt all the water based lube prevent any static electricity? I havnt
tried it and dont plan on it untill I've learned more. But like I said I'm no chemist, this is just what came to mind. So please tell me if I'm right or wrong or if I'm about to blow
my head off :P

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Styphnate Preparation
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rapdogg21 August 27th, 2006, 08:20 AM

G u y s , I h a v e r e a d s o m e interesting wa y to m a k e l e a d s t y p h n a t e at this forum , but then here's another way of producing it!
(but in bulk! - be careful!)
1. Pour 5 lite rs of water in a ceramic re actor. (you can improvise other reactors) Heat until it reaches 140F.
2. Put 545 gram-equivalent trinitroresorcinol (m a k e y o u r own, please).

3. Add 40ml glacial acetic acid .
4. Add 1.9L of 0.25(v/v) am m onia solution. m a k e s u r e t h e t e m p will not exceed 140F.
5. Adjust the temp down to 130F. Also adjust the ph at a range of 7.9-8.2
6. Add slowly, 3.6L of lead nitrate solution (dissolve 1.6kg up to 3.6L of water), and 3.6L of am m o n i a s o l u t i o n ( a d d 2 5 0 m l
0.25(v/v) am m o n i a s o l u t i o n u p to 3.6L in water) Adjust the ph to 5.9-6.2 .
Then react the solutions up to 4 5 m i n u t e s .
W ash then try to lessen the water content!
I think this m ight be helpful!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Picric acid question
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F1reman S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2006, 02:24 AM

I was wondering if you could u se Sodiu m bisulp hate instead of Sulphuric acid in the synthesis of picric acid. In one chem istry
b o o k I h a v e , i t s a y s y o u c a n u s e N a H S O 4 i n s t e a d o f H 2 S O 4 in reactions.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2006, 10:58 AM

I find it highly doubtful.
c.Tech S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2006, 11:13 AM

T h a t s b e c a u s e s o d i u m bisulfate (easily brought in pool shops) breaks down to sulfuric acid and sodium sulfate.
I n s o m e situations th is happe ns such as in ethanol, I've tried with no success, m aybe heat would work?
As the synthesis of picric acid uses 98% sulphuric acid, it may be hard to get that concentration from your sodium bisulfate. But
the real question wou l d 9 8 % b e n e e d e d?
Does anybody know how to break down sodium bisulfate to sodium sulfate and sulfuric acid easily?
akinrog S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2006, 05:16 PM

Does anybody know how to break down sodium bisulfate to sodium sulfate and sulfuric acid easily?
W h e n y o u h e a t s o d i u m bisulfate it first gives off water then SO3, which can be collected and used to m a k e o l e u m . HTH.

I d i d s o m e m ore research into the preparation of sulfuric acid and found the following info rm ation.
If you were going to m ake sulfuric acid with heat you need sulfuric acid, which defeats the purpose of trying to m ake it in the
first place.
http://www.sciencema d n e s s . o r g / m e m b er_publications/SO 3_and_oleum .pdf

EDIT: This process uses sodiu m p e r s u l f a t e , b u t a s t h e s o d i u m p ersulfate is turned into so dium pyrosulfate, sodium bisulfate
can be substituted for it does the same.
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate
Solu tions of sodium bisulfate are acid, with a 1M solutio n having pH of 1.4. In som e applications, such solutions can be used
instead of sulfuric acid solution. For ex a m p l e , f r o m a solution of sodium bisulfate a n d s o d i u m acetate it is possible to distill
acetic acid. Sodium bisulfate solutions will also liberate CO 2 from m o s t c a r b o n a t e s .
The anhydrous form is hygroscopic. Its m e l t i n g p o i n t i s p o o r l y d e f i n e d b e c a u s e i t b e g i n s t o d e c o m p o s e i n t o s o d i u m p y r o s u l f a t e

and water be fore it re aches its m elting points.
S o d i u m b i s u l f a t e b e h a v e s , t o s o m e degree, as if it were a complex of so dium sulfate with sulfuric acid. This is evident if either
the anhydrous form or the m onohydrate com e in contact with ethanol, which causes them to separate into those two
components. [1]
I'm going to try the e thanol synthesis again, would the acid separate from the ethanol leaving 2 distinct layers?
EDIT: I just tested the ethano l process to sulfuric acid. There were no visible layers present.
F i r s t I a d d e d s o m e s o d i u m bisulfate to ethanol (95%) and stirre d . I t h e n a d d e d a p i e c e o f a l u m inium from an old beer can,
nothing chan g e d n o h y d r o g e n f o r m ing or corrosion of the Al.
W hen I added water and stirred lots of tiny bubbles formed, could it have been the acid dehydrating the ethanol to ethene? As
if stirred m o r e t h e s e b u b b l e s d i s a p p e a r e d a n d o v e r h a l f o f t h e s u b s t a n c e d i s s o l v e d .
At this point the Al was out, I added a sm all piece of m a g n e s i u m that reacted form ing bubbles tha t I m a s s u m i n g a re
hydrogen.
I then thought that the aluminium didnt react because the can could be different from pure alum i n i u m .
I sawed a tin y bit off a piece of alum in ium I ha ve that seems to be more pure and dropped it in. No instant effect but it is
sitting outsid e and I will check it shortly.
F1reman S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2006, 12:59 AM

Thanks akinrog, I will try make some oleum the way you suggested.
akinrog S e p t e m b e r 7 th, 2006, 05:58 AM

W hen I added water and stirred lots of tiny bubbles formed, could it have been the acid dehydrating the ethanol to ethene?
Even with sulfuric acid , it takes too much heat to convert ethanol to ethene (ethylene). So I don't think it's an option.
I saw that se tup (i.e. SO3 from Bisulfate) on th e Rhodium's site when it was onlin e. However, the site stated that Potassium
bisulfate is b etter for such a job.
In ancient times, peo ple were using Iron Sulfate to m a k e S O 3 from Sulfuric acid. When Iron (III) Sulfate is heated it
decomposes into Iron (II) sulfate, releasing SO3, which can be adsorbed into sulfuric acid, to make it m ore concentrated. For
that reason it was called O il of Vitriol before the m odern tim e s . H T H

Now from the past ethanol and bisulfate experim ent the white bisulfate has disap peared and formed fine clear crystals, Im
assuming it's sodium sulfate.
The alum inium did nothing.
I saw that se tup (i.e. SO3 from Bisulfate) on th e Rhodium's site when it was onlin e.
A while ago I uploaded rhodium s drug chemistry archive to Rapidshare, take a lo ok if you can find it in my copy.
http://rapidshare.de/files/317 98088/R h o d i u m _s_Drug_Chem istry_Archive.zip
In ancient times, peo ple were using Iron Sulfate to m a k e S O 3 from Sulfuric acid. When Iron (III) Sulfate is heated it
decomposes into Iron (II) sulfate
A n h y d r o u s c o p p e r s u l f a t e c a n a l s o b e u s e d . M o re on sulfuric acid and SO3 synthesis can b e found in this th read (http://
www.roguesci.org/theforum /chem istry-related/793-sulph uric-acid-synthesis.html), or here. (http://species8472.dyndns.org/so3/
so3.htm l)
EDIT: If a sm all amount of alcohol (enough to cover) was added to sodium bisulfate and covered, over time it would
d e c o m p o s e t o s u l f u r i c a c i d a n d s o d i u m sulfate. The later could be filtered out and the sulfuric acid/alcohol gently heated to
drive off all the alcohol.
This would probably work, righ t? Because the sodium su lfate would gradu ally come in contact with the ethanol and decom p o s e ,
the process would be slow but inevitable.
I will try this on the weekend.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nitrogen Sulfide - Alternative Preparation
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Diabolique S e p t e m b e r 1 3th, 2006, 02:38 AM

T h i s m ethod of preparing nitrogen sulfide was suggeste d thirty years ago. It was not tried due to the difficulty in obtaining
s o m e of the materials, and th eir toxicity. I am physically unable to try it.
Nitrogen trichloride is reacted with a m etal sulfide to pro duce the m etal chloride and nitrog en sulfid e. Sodium sulfide was the
first thought, but the residual sodium hydroxide from its production would react with the NCl3, very likely violently. A m oderator
would be needed to slow the reaction to keep from causing catastrophic decomposition of the NCl3.
Carbon tetrachloride and carbon disulfide, both quite toxic and hard to find these days, were suggested, as they are stable with
NCl3, and disolve it. Finely powdered iron sulfid e was su g g e s t e d a s t h e m etal sulfide. It would have to be a dded very slowly to
prevent a runaway reaction.
The nitrogen sulfide would be filtered from the solvent and dried. Residual iron would be disolved with dilute hydrochloric acid,
and the prod uct washed with cold water and dried.
As this has n ever been tried, to m y knowledge, anyone who tries this should NOT try m a k i n g m ore than a gram , a n d t a k e a l l
precautions against the possible violent decomposition of the NCl3. Do not use an organic solvent, as NCl3 reacts violently with
m a n y , a n d f o r m s e x p l o s i v e m ixture with m ost of the rest.
If th is works, let us know. W e will have a new prim a r y e x p l o s i v e t o u s e .
Diabolique S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2006, 03:29 PM

Last night, som e o n e o u t s i d e r s . o r g s u g g e s t e d u s i n g h y d r o g e n s u l f i d e i n s t e a d o f a m e t a l s u l f i d e . T his m ay simplify the
production, producing hydrogen chlorid e in addition to n itrogen sulfide.
FUTI S e p t e m b e r 1 4th, 2006, 06:38 PM

That would be usefull since HCl isn't soluble in C Cl4 and bubles away from m ixture with surplus H2S. Could be usefull for
controling that reaction since product isn't safest thing on the wo rld you can't be too much cautious.
Diabolique S e p t e m b e r 1 5th, 2006, 02:18 AM

N i t r o g e n s u l f i d e h a s b e e n s u g g e s t e d f o r u s e a s a p r i m a r y e x p l o s i v e i n d e t o n a t o r s , m u c h l i k e l e a d a z i d e a n d m ercury
fulm i n a t e . T h e o n e t h i n g h o l d i n g b a c k i t s u s e h a s b e e n a n e a s y a n d i n e x p e n s i v e w a y o f p r o d u c i n g it.
Like all prim ary explosives, nitrogen sulfide is sensitive. Nitrogen trichloride is the real nasty in this preparation, being both
unstable and highly reactive.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tris(nitromethyl)amin, The Way from NTA
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Abigail September 19th, 2006, 02:52 PM

An interesting compound is tris(nitromethyl)amine and the simple way from NTA (nitrilotriacetic acid, N(CH2-COOH)3 ) and HNO3. I think that's a quite good idea, somewhat
dangerous but I believe that is correct. The synthesis will produce some
nitrogen oxides and you need somewhat more HNO3.
Tris(nitromethyl)amine (TNMA):
Prepare a mixture of 100 ml 35% HNO3 in a 1000 ml beaker, place the beaker in a salt/ice bad and 15 g of powdered NTA is stirred in small portions to the HNO3.
Place the flask to a stirrer and the mixture is stirred over a period of 30 minutes. The temperatureshould not rise above 40C!
Drop 27 ml of 96% H2SO4 to the mixture, 56 ml of 70% HNO3 is added in around 10 ml portions over 60 minutes, another 66 ml of 96% H2SO4 is dropped in and the mixture
is stirred for several minutes. The reaction is complete when no nitrogen oxides will bubble off.
Cool the mixture, 100 ml of 99% H2SO4 is dropped in and the flask is standing for any time.
(I`m not sure but I believe TNMA is a liquid and a synthesis with concetrated HNO3 is sufficient.)
When the TNMA will not form a layer, the liquid is extracted with several portions of methylene chloride and anhydrous magnesium sulfate, the magnesium sulfate is removed
by filtering and the methylene chloride and water is expelled on an evaporating pan.
The remainders of acid are removed by washing the liquid with with 5% sodium carbonate solution and dried over sodium chloride.
Seems possible, does anyone think that is correct ?

Where did you get this process from?
A source is required to determine validity.
If you made it up yourself, what's your basis for doing so?
atlas#11 September 20th, 2006, 02:03 AM

This sounds like a pretty good compound to me, the synthesis seems like it would work. Perhaps thers a way to get nitrillotriacetic acid from detergent? Probably in small
quantities, no where near practical as a source. 100g is avalible from alfa aesar at about 16 bucks.
1,3,5-(NO2)3-2-(N3)-C6H2, tnma is a nitrophenyl azide. Am I looking for the right compound?
"Even the weakest of the investigated organic explosives (TNMA) is more powerful than AgN3 or Pb(N3)2, if the acoustic level is interpret as somewhat proportional to the
detonation power."
Sounds like its abit more work than I'm willing to put into something that "sounds" more powerful than silver azide. Have you any experience with this compound? It sounds
neat, as do dnta and tnta, but I don't want to mess with carconogens when I can make silver acetyelide in about fifteen minutes and be happy with it. Also, where did you get
this procedure? Google only gives me a few pdf's on specrto analysis and such of the compound.

It sounds neat, as do dnta and tnta,...
Acronyms should always be CAPITALIZED to make them stand out.
Observe:
It sounds neat, as do DNTA and TNTA,...
Further errors:
Perhaps thers a way to get nitrillotriacetic acid from detergent?
Shouldn't that be:
Perhaps there's a way to get nitrilotriacetic acid from detergent?
Grammar is important when you're dealing with technical subject matter that can KILL YOU!
You start getting sloppy with the little things and you'll end up as sloppy little things all over the floor, walls, and ceiling. :)
For instance, what the hell does this mean?
When the TNMA will not form a layer,
Does that mean IN CASE the TNMA does NOT seperate into a distinct layer, that you extract it?
Or does it mean that it NEVER forms a seperate layer, requiring extraction?
The_Duke September 22nd, 2006, 04:38 PM

On first glance, the procedure posted above will not lead to the desired compound nor will it even form a nitro compound The (COOH) group will not be completely
cleaved and the carboxyl group will most likely remain intact (as I don't see decarboxylation being likely to happen), therefore only a nitrate ester (Tris(carboxymethyl)amine
trinitrate?) seems possible with this rxn. This procedure could even prove dangerous so be carfull.
nbk2000 September 23rd, 2006, 02:02 AM

I'm still waiting on either citation of source, or claim of originality.
Even more importantly, what is this used for? Google doesn't find it.
Is it an explosive, propellant, chemical weapon, or precursor for any of the former?
Abigail September 24th, 2006, 03:06 PM

Oh, i meant it is not known if the TNMA will form a separate layer. I`ve never made it but i would guess there are only two possibilities to obtain this compound. I don`t want
give insufficient suggestions or something like crap. Why should i need a validity to bring up some nice stuff to the forum ?
I would not recommend the process with three substituents of concentrated HNO3/H2SO4 and a carboxylic acid, you want to destroy it ?
By the way, i would not trust what google told. I could not found anywhat about this.
I will thinking some days, a useful process to make NTA seems interested. You can get NTA from most of the chem suppliers, somewhat expensive - around $170 per pound.
FUTI September 24th, 2006, 07:00 PM

trinitriloacetic acid is known to decompose in acidic conditions (H2SO4) giving iminodiacetic acid so I guess yuo will have much problems to solve with that one but if it makes
you happy go away. Still...no reference of properies of that compound, posible use etc from you Abigail even after NBK asked you. Do you really want to piss us of by forcing
us to use SciFinder or what? This is science forum...we chit-chat here about science but you happens to be too misterious.

Your next post, Abigail, had better be to state of what use this chemical is, in very clear and concise detail, or it's the end of your existance here.
Posting just any old random chemical synth is pointless. There are other places for such things, like Sciencemadness.
Here, at RS.org, we deal only in those things useful as weapons.
Oh, and I'm getting the distinct impression that the process you posted is something you cooked up yourself, not from any published source. Such 1+1 chemistry results in an
immediate banning.
Alexires September 25th, 2006, 11:48 AM

Abigail - You have answered your own question.
Why would one need to validate a sythesis for an unknown chemical on an Explosives and Weapons forum?
Let's see.
If your sythesis is shit, we die.
If the product is an evaporated chemical weapon, we die.
Hell, it might just be some combination of chemicals that no one has ever mixed together before and forms an increadibly powerful and sensitive explosive that we will be the
last to see (until some other idiot tries it) and we die.
What the hell is it, what the hell does it do, and why the hell should I trust your "synthesis"?

This sounds like a novel high explosive compound of little importance if indeed that synthesis is correct. Owing to the simplicity of that reaction, tris(nitromethyl)amine would
have been around for awhile. It is not unprecedented that a nitro group can replace a carboxyl group. I could not spare the time today, but I will run a scifinder search to satisfy
my curiosity on Wednesday.

The compound in question is more properly named 1-nitro-N,N-bis(nitromethyl)-methanamine using IUPAC nomenclature, not that swissified version you used, which I gather
is part of the problem in finding out what this stuff is. The CAS# is 60583-48-4. It is indeed an explosive, and it is of little known value. SciFinder lists but one reference, a
Japanese patent that uses 1-nitro-N,N-bis(nitromethyl)-methanamine in admixture with a few other explosives. Since there are no preparation references, I gather this is an
old one, as in one must use Belstein to locate its 19th century origins.
Owing to the fact there has been but one blip on the radar in over 50 years, it is apparent both industry and the military have abandoned it utterly and completely.
Attached is the molecular structure for everyones edification.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Need fish bomb help
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Phattwoohie September 29th, 2006, 08:24 PM

Hello there,
First let me say that Im new, and if this is the wrong forum, please forgive me. My grandfather has several large ponds in the w oods on about 100 acres that he ow ns. That
being said, I want to make a fish bomb for fun, and to put a mess of fish in the freezer before winter gets here.
I tried shocking the fish by using a hand held generator. I took tw o 25 foot pieces of wire and attached them to the generator and placed a lead weight on each of the wire
ends. I then threw the wires out in the water about 5-6 feet apart, and started cranking the generator.
It w orked pretty good for catfish, as they floated up in droves, but that w as about it.
After consulting w ith a friend, I was informed that catfish are easier to electric shock, because they have skin and other fish are a bit harder to shock because of their scales. My
generator wasnt putting out enough to shock the scaled fish, so I decided to try and make a small pipe bomb.
I searched the forums here, but mostly found people who want to make bombs out of high grade powders and stuff. Im just looking to make a crude bomb to fish with on our
private land.
I was thinking of just using plastic PVC pipe about 6 inches long and 2 end caps. I would fill the pipe with Black powder, the same kind I buy for my black powder rifle at the
local sporting goods store.
Then I would drill a hole through one of the endcaps, and use regular waterproof canon fuse that I can buy from Cabellas magazine.
I was gonna push the fuse down through the hole in the endcap and into the black powder. Then drip hot wax around the hole in the endcap/fuse to waterproof it. Tie a brick
around the pipe and light fuse and throw out into the pond.
O.k. obviously I'm no expert in the least w hen it comes to this stuff, thats why I'm asking for your advice, and your expertise. I know there's got to be some flaws in my plan,
and I'm hoping you w ill point them out to me.
Also if this is in the wrong forum, I ask any moderator to please move it, or close it, and I can post in the right one. Thank you all in advance.
++ ++++ +++ ++
I've highlighted selected portions of this post for the amusement of the membership. ;) :D
Also, paragraph breaks are mandatory around here, as well as proper punctuation, such as using I'm, not Im, as a contraction for I am.
NBK
Ropik September 30th, 2006, 11:20 AM

The main flaw is that you will be killed while making that cute pipe bomb of yours. Usualy, it is better to drill into containers before putting something spark, heat, friction and
static-electricity sensitive inside, you see?
Maybe I should hold my mouth shut, but I really dislike people killed and maimed by their own explosive creations - it puts our hobby into bad light.
Search this forum some more and you will find something... at least literature to read.

LOL thanks for that highlight nbk.
To think I was going to recommend APAN to him w arning him on APs dangers, but I dont think it would be a very good idea to tell him about a pow erful and sensitive explosive
if he may drill it. Anyone disagree? ;) Read last line.
I think whilst typing something that would be different to him actually making it. He may get second thoughts w hilst in the process unless he w ants to end up here (http://
w w w.darw inaw ards.com/).
It w ould probably be better if people like him end up dead so they w ont be a danger to anyone anymore nor will they breed another generation of stupid kids.
Chopper September 30th, 2006, 12:31 PM

Now I hesitate to ask, how ever, what on earth is the danger involved in drilling PVC with a HSS(or carbon steel) drill?
Obviously, a different approach is required to satisfy all reasonable safety requirements. This not withstanding, given that graphite-coated BP w ill be used inside PVC pipe, there
is no substantial risk present from static or heat build-up. To be perfectly frank, the greatest risk involved would be setting fire to the fuse whilst dripping w ax onto the hole.
Clearly the better method would be to drill an end-cap, seal the fuse into it, before capping and filling the pipe.
Further more, the basic level of understanding of this individual, combined with his/her preparedness to state so AND to ask about something that they themselves recognise as
being rather mickey-mouse would tend to indicate that, far from being stupid, this individual simply lacks some 'common' know ledge.
I know I really shouldn't throw rocks from inside my glass-house, but I'm personally worried more about simple sentence structure being screwed-up to a point of being
unintelligible. This particular gem springs to mind. Particularly coming from somebody that uses english all day long every day....
c.Tech wrote:
"I think w hilst typing something that would be different to him actually making it."
??????????
festergrump September 30th, 2006, 01:44 PM

I'm curious. What does your grandfather think of this idea?
(If I were his grandfather he'd be swinging by his neck from my favorite tree in true Mississippi Windchime fashion. You see, it would have been me who painstakingly stocked
the fucking ponds with fish caught elsewhere to ensure I had good times to come fishing them back out at my leisure when they matured... And here he comes along and blasts
them into oblivion in an instant, wrecking not only my fun but making the fish nearly inedible, too! FOOL! )
That said and out of the w ay and regardless of what your grandpa thinks of your lame idea of fishing sport, whatever are you to do with the nearly ruined meat of your now
destroyed fishies? Fillets are now out of the question. Providing you can still distinguish between the meat and the internal organs you'll have pretty much one option left to save
anything in useable quantities, and while I will never help you out in your endevours to ruin your good ole grandpappy's fishing fun by spoonfeeding you, I will come off of an
idea for you to save what could potentially be a total loss... This w ill be the only help you get from me on this topic.
Fish patties: Chop whatever useable portions of meat into uniformly small chunks, mix w ith egg whites to help hold them together, mash very tightly into hamburger sized
patties, dip back into the eggwhites very carefully for an external coating, pat down with breadcrumb/cornflour/ favorite seasoning mix, and either panfry, deep fry, or bake
until golden brown (I prefer deepfrying in a wire mesh basket. They'll float when finished cooking). Must cook to completion before freezing or the patties w ill eventually spoil in
the freezer. They can be thaw ed and reheated only once prior to consumption. Viola.
Enjoy them before your grandpa kicks your ass into your next incarnation...
NBK, you are sadistic for letting this one through-- but thanks for the laugh. :) Always appreciated!
c.Tech September 30th, 2006, 10:00 PM

c.Tech wrote:
"I think w hilst typing something that would be different to him actually making it."
??????????
Sorry I didnt properly s tructure that line correctly, what it was m eant to mean was... typing the two bolded sentences in that order and actually carrying it out are two different things, he
could have realised what he was doing w hen he w as about to drill the hole or drilled the hole on the end cap before fitting it.
PVC can create static charges by rubbing against other objects, so there's that possible (though unlikely) source of ignition.
Another is the frictional heat generated by a drill going through the end cap, or the crushing and grinding of grains of BP by the drill bit against each other.
It's just an all around BAD idea to drill into a pipe bomb, regardless of what it is made out of, or w hat is in it. :rolleyes:
But it is good that he asked anyways. :)
atlas#11 October 1st, 2006, 01:31 PM

I'm with NBK, and everyone else w ith intelligence on this one. Powertools + explosives = full days work for coroner + rotting entrails stinking up grandpa's property (or fish bait,
if it were my grandson).
If your serioulsy interested in the science of energetic compounds, then you are in the right place, but your going to have a hard time learning if you get banned. I suggest you
read the rules of the forum, post inside the w ater cooler (where new commers are required to make their first post anyways), and learn as much as you can before making
stupid mistakes like drilling into a couple pounds of explosives.
If all you w ant to do is blow up some fishes, then I still advise you to learn something about what your doing. It's not that I give a shit about your well being, it's that your
death would just be another statistic for the piggies to bitch about till they get more funding for their war on intelligence. You came to us for help, we will give it to you, you
ow e it to us to not get killed.
CaiTheGreat October 1st, 2006, 04:39 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that maybe in typing his proposed idea this guy incorrectly ordered the steps of his plan. Perhaps he meant to drill and fully finish all
work on the exterior of his device before adding black pow der. Maybe not though.
Cobalt.45 October 3rd, 2006, 05:46 PM

My question w ould be, "What the fuck's w rong w ith eating/ putting up catfish?"
More meat, less bone, and if you know how to do it, very simple skinning.
Not to mention, delicious.
And, did you ever consider a hook and line? Or even a net? Or is that, too, w ay too hard?
Around sporting men, fishing with explosives is considered poor form. Reserved for mouth breathing white trash. Do right by your dear ol' Grand Daddy, why doncha?
Not to mention the fish...
atlas#11 October 4th, 2006, 01:06 PM

This forum isn't about sport or fishing, its about explosives and weapons. The only w ay to incorporate explosives with fishing is by fishing w ith explosives. If he wants to fish
with explosives thats his perogative, all I care about is him doing it right. I don't give a shit about sport or the fishes either, aslong as he doesn't get killed in the process.
festergrump October 4th, 2006, 08:40 PM

This forum isn't about sport or fishing...
It is not about making "pipe-bombs", either, or anything containing the w ord BOMB in it... yet four times within the first post (including the title) I managed to read that word.
It is assumed when you come here that you know putting a material that expels gas rapidly when burned inside a confined space what the outcome will generally be. Coming
here and needing to ask how to devise such a contraption or in what sequence to put it together in is asking for trouble, since w e don't generally cater to fools w ho cannot even
grasp this principle to the point where they can get such a device to function as expected, and do so safely.
Sure, some may say, "Well, at least he asked..." but I say w ho cares if he did or didn't. There's absolutely no reason to come here where the discussions are so much further
advanced than this level and ask such a question outside the Water Cooler when there are so many other places all over the internet w ho'll be glad to have his discussion there
because it fits in w ith their level of study or focus. Evil NBK did it to provide a good hearty gut-chuckle, and that it did.
If his dear ole grandad was all for this idea of his, could HE not help the boy with something similar to what he's planning on using? More than likely he could do much better
than confined BP and some visco. All I'm saying is, no, this Forum isn't about fishing or sport, but it definitely isn't about spoonfeeding lamers or helping them go and do
something stupid, either.
In defense of my earlier post, I gave him the general idea of what to do when he ruined most of his fish and nothing more. For all we know there are no ponds or any fish to be
frozen, but instead a whole slew of young eyes waiting to gasp in aw e at his new found abilities to unleash a loud report...
Someone call Totse. Another one escaped...
mil&co October 5th, 2006, 08:35 AM

Actually, fishing with explosives is contra-productive. The purpose of fishing is to keep the fish and eat it (in this case).
But when using explosives, there w on't be much pleasure in eating your kill.
Water caries the blast-wave much better than air, which allow s you to kill fish in a large radius, but because of the strong blast-w ave their bodies w ill turn into blubber (thus
making them useless for culinary purpose).
If you just want to kill some fish, go ahead, make some AN-dynamite + SA cap and have fun. But for real fishing you'll need a line and a hook.
atlas#11 October 5th, 2006, 11:40 AM

Actualy the theory behind fishing with explosives is that a small shockwave will rupture the swimbladders on the target fish and cause them to float to the surface. This doesn't
alw ays work but more often than not. Try using less explosives, more isn't always better.
Fester, I w asn't trying to spoon feed anyone. I w as merly stating that he should read the rules before posting in here. I never even stated that he had any brains, all I was
saying is that I would rather see him learn something before he blow s himself up drilling into a pipe bomb. Statistics are capable of getting laws passed, and I'm getting tired of
having chemicals banned.

Floating a line of det-cord on the surface and setting it off will stun fish without pulverizing them.
But where does the young fisherman get det-cord?
Why, he makes his ow n, of course! :D
atlas#11 October 6th, 2006, 01:31 PM

I've done dets on the surface, its strangely louder than usual, like a floating black cat firecracker sounds much louder than one just tossed on the ground. I think it's because the
ground absorbs alot of the noise, w here w ater being non-compressable w ould reverberate the sound better. Just my theory any ways.
Something to account for w hen fishing with something illegal, on your own property it probably isn't that big of a deal, but on a lake in a state park or something it may be wise
to submerge the charge.
Hirudinea October 6th, 2006, 09:42 PM

Couldn't you just submerge a weighted hose with holes in it and pump a fish posion (carbon dioxide gas for instance, suffocate the little buggers) through the hose and wait for
the fish to float the surface?
viol8r October 7th, 2006, 09:26 AM

When I was a younger man, I had an older friend that fished everyw here. He used an electric w elder at the end of his pier to get fish.
He knew of my lovely firecrackers. I believe they were 1-1/4" by 4, 5, 6 inches long.

He used some to great success but some were not water proofed properly and w ere duds.
I didn't have a proper way to waterproof at the time so that method of fishing stopped. Now I w ould cover them with Nitrocellulose Lacquer.
I have used Shimizu's recipe of:
64 Potassium Perchlorate
23 Aluminum
13 Sulfur
He never spoke of the fish tasting or being in a different shape after he gave them a cracking.
wmdguru October 9th, 2006, 11:45 PM

Fishing with explosives is like using concrete for engine oil. It just doesn't make sense. You are going to drop a pipe bomb... into the water to cause an explosion which will blow
up the fish.. can someone "break off the logic for me here?"
I admit I am ingorant in many things to include the hydrodynamics involved w ith an explosion underwater... well is it is aerodynamics where the gasses are from w here the
explosion occurs.. anyways... I w ould guess that trying to use explosives to blow up fish makes as much sense as a law yer fighting for justice.
Where I have been fishing I w ould usually prefer to use a net. As in a fish net and use a net to gather my fish. It will be dolphin safe in a pond or lake as there are no dolphins
in there.
The only practical application for using explosives to aid fishing is if you are looking to blow a beaver dam. Any thing else is nothing more than fruitless.
I would advocate using explosives when hunting though... make an improvised claymore mine... but I don't think the game warden would agree w ith these methods and even
if you live in Arkansas I am sure you w ould be slapped with a hefty fine if caught.
You fish on private land? Well go out w hen it isn't hunting season even on you ow n land and see if a game warden shows up w ithout a warrant to see what is going on. He can
seize everything you own before you know which law yer to call.
DaveO October 11th, 2006, 02:03 AM

I fish for Carp with my bangers and it is a fine sport. Not seen in the public as a sporting event, but all the same rewarding in its own right.
Gerbil October 17th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Not seen in the public as a sporting event, but all the same rewarding in its own right.
Even though there is 0% skill involved? Hmmm...I was always led to believe that the point of fishing was food/sport. If you want to create mass-death for no apparent reason,
IMO you should join the Marines and head to Iraq ;) .
Hypothetically speaking, though, to clear a lake of fish, one w ay could be to use a poison such as a lot of chlorine, although it wouldn't be a particularly nice death (or edible
:rolleyes: ). But bear in mind that you'd be destroying the whole ecological structure as w ell.
The OP's idea reminds me of the hunting 'skills' of lazy upper-class Romans, ie. getting a band of slaves to round the animal into a net and leisurely stabbing it to death with a
pre-sharpened spear. What's the point?
BeerWolf October 18th, 2006, 01:36 AM

For your amusement, here are Rednecks fishing in Afganistan with an RPG:
http://op-for.com/2006/10/best_video_ever.html
c.Tech October 18th, 2006, 05:32 AM

1 fish lol, just goes to show you w here your tax money is going.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Trinitroethanol Synthesis
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View Full Version : Trinitroethanol Synthesis
Abigail S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2006, 05:16 PM

It`s not im pressive really but it will give a bit of incitatio n with trinitrom e t h a n e
and some to the the trinitroethanol synthesis. The process is sam ewhat sensitive and the TNM sho uld be free of acid.
Snthesis 1:
P l a c e 1 1 4 g o f 3 7 % f o r m a l d e h y d e t o a 1 0 0 0 m l 3 - n e c k e d 1 0 0 0 m l flask and set the flask to a cold water bad. C o m b i n e a
s e c o n d m ixture of 192 g neutral and p ure trinitrom e t h a n e a n d 1 g p o t a s s i u m c a r b o n a t e i n 1 0 m l distilled water in a 500m l
beaker. Over a period of an hour drop the second solution to the first and m aintain the te mperature of the liquid below 20 C .
Shake the flask and add some ice to the water bad if it necessary. Set the water bad to a hotplate, seal the flask with glass
wool and the flask is heated gradually to 60 C for four hours. Connect the flask to a vacu u m e q u i p m ent and solution is
concentrated as m u c h a s p o s s i b l e a n d t h e f o r m aldehyde is rem o v e d b y a d d i n g s e v e r a l s m all portions of water. Than 50 g of
s o d i u m chloride powd er is added and the product is extracted with four 300 ml po rtions of methylene chloride. The combined
extract is dried of anhydrous m a g n e s i u m sulfate and th e m ethylene chlo ride is removed under reduced pressure.
Synthesis 2:
P r e p a r e a m ixture of 200 g neutral and pure trinitrom e t h a n e , 1 2 0 m l distilled water and 0,2 g sodium h y d r o x i d e i n a 3 - n e c k e d
1000 ml flask. Place the flask to a cold water bad, add 100 g of paraform a l d e h y d e powder and seal the flask with glass wool.
The flask is standing in the water bad for one day and is shaked every half hours. Maintain the tem perature of the water bad
belo w 25 C . After that, place the water bad to a hotplate, the water bad is heated gradually to 60 C and than the flask is
s h a k e n e v e r y s e v e r a l m inutes. After an hour, the process is continued and the product is extracted exactly as synthesis 1.
Have anyone infos to a synth. and trinitroethanol ? Look`s nice but i don `t have m uch infos to this and if this is correct. O h,
this is m y en d.
nbk2000 S e p t e m b e r 3 0th, 2006, 07:36 PM

From this thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /other-explosives/5700-tris-nitromethyl-amin-way-nta.h tm l)
Y o u r n e x t p o st, Abigail, had better be to state of what use this chem ical is, in very clear and concise detail, or it's th e e n d o f
your existance here.
This post is not an answer to the question of what, if an y, purpose TNMA serves, therefore this is the end of your existance
here. :)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Triethanolaminetrinitrate (TEATN)
Synthesis
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Benn October 23rd , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 1 5 P M

Hi all, i`ve read a lot about interested explosives like ethylene glycol dinitrate (EGDN), die thylene glycol dinitrate (DEGDN) and
triethylene glycol dinitrate (TEGDN). I have been thinkin g that th is is suitable to p repare triethanolam intrinitrate by several
m ethods, it is a nitrated ester and the synthesis is somewhat se nsitive when the temperature is not m aintained exactly.
Triethanolam inetrinitrate: (O2 NOCH2CH2)3N

2 8 4 , 1 8 g / m ol
Synthesis 1:
P r e p a r e a m ixture of 55 g of 96% sulfuric acid and 33,5 g of 70% nitric a cid in a 500 mL round bottom e d f l a s k a n d c o o l t h e
f l a s k t o 0 d e g r e e c e n t i g r a d e . P r e p a r e s o l u t i o n o f 1 0 0 m L of m ethylene chloride and 12,5 m L of triethanolam in in a 250 m L
round bottom e d f l a s k a n d c o o l t h e s o l u t i o n m u ch as possible, the triethanolam in in the solution should not freeze.
Triethanolam ine: (HO C H 2 C H 2 )3N

Free zing-point: 17,9 - 21 degree centigrade
M o l a r M a s s : 1 4 9 , 1 9 g / m ol
Density: 1,12 g/cm
Boiling Point: ~360 degree centigrade
CAS number: 102-71-6
Slowly the se cond solution is stirred to the first, keep the temperature between 0 and 2 degree centigrade and the m ixture is
stirred for 15 m inutes. After that, allow the layers to separate and the up pler laye r is tranfered to a separatory funnel. Wash
the solution with four 30 m L portions o f water, let separate the layer and wash the TEATN with a portion of 10% sodium
carbonate so l u t i o n . T h e s o l v e n t c a n b e r e m o v e d b y g e n tly warming the flask on a water bath at 50 degree centigrade.
Synthesis 2:
P r e p a r e a m ixture of 100 g of 98-100% sulfuric acid, 172 g of 98-100% nitric acid and 667 mL methylene chloride in a large
round bottom e d f l a s k a n d c o o l t h e f l a s k t o 0 d e g r e e c e n t i g r a d e . P r e p a r e s o l u t i o n o f 2 0 0 m L o f m ethylene chloride and 99,5 g
of triethanolam ine in a 500 m L round bottom ed flask and slowly the triethanolam ine solution is stirred to the acid m ixture.
Hold the tem perature between 0 and 2 degree centigrade and the stirring is continued for 15 m inutes. Add 16 m L of water and
let separate the layers. Decan t of the upper layer, transfer the solution to a separatory funnel, wash the product with four 20 0
m L portions of water, separate the product and wash with one portion of 10% sodium carbonate so lution. The solvent is than
removed by gently warm ing the flask on a water bath at 50 degree centigrade.
Synthesis 3:
Prepare 2,2 m L of a nitrating m ixture consisting of 51% sulfuric acid and 49% nitric acid in a 100 m L beaker by cooling the
b e a k e r t o 0 d e g r e e c e n t i g r a d e i n a s a l t i c e b a d . C a r e f u l a d d 1 0 7 m L of n - h e p t a n e t o t h e b e a k e r a n d k e e p t h e t e m perature
belo w 2 degree centigrade. Slowly add 1 m L of triethanolam ine with stirring, stirr the m ixture for additional 15 m i n t u e s a n d
k e e p t h e t e m perature between 0 and 2 degree centigrade. After stirring three layers should form in the beaker. Tranfer the
layers to a separatory funnel, allow the layers to form and collect the middle layer of TEAT N. Wash with four sm all portions of
water, let separate the layer a nd wash again with a sma ll portion of 10% sodium carbonate solution. The solvent is than
removed by gently warm ing the flask on a water bath at 50 degree centigrade.
Does anyone have any experience making this explosive ?
nbk2000 October 24th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 9 : 4 6 P M

Christ...:rolleyes:
This is the third tim e, don't you ever fucking learn?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > questions about KClO4
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turbo923 October 25th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 6 : 3 0 P M

As you m ay know, this is my first post, so I figure I'll start it out as an educational process for m e .
I've been reading the forum s quite a lot, and just reciently joined. I'm planning to make flash powder for q uite som e tim e , b u t
have a few questions to stay safe as p ossible.
Obviously KC lO4 is pretty hard to com e by, esp ecially since I'm under 21. Is there anywhe re I can get it online or in person?
Pyro tek is located close to me (about 40 min), but do they carry KClO4? O n their website, I couldn't seem to find it. If they do,
can you buy it by going to their store, or do they only offer online/phone orders, and do you have to be 21?
If not, I m ight have a friend that could order it, but he's hesitant after having to send in all his information including his
driver's license to be put on file. And then with the chem ical being on the "watch list," he's even m ore hesitant. He's worried
about getting in trouble buying it, so told m e to inquire on here. W ill he get in an y trouble buying perchlorate online, then
buying alum inum powder online later on in the week. No phone calls from the governm ent? Personally, I'd like to get it myself
a n d n o t h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h s o m eone, but if every place is 21, that's going to be a little hard.
Secondly, I've been reading a lot on this. It seem s KClO4 is most stable of the flash powders. I don't plan on using sulfer in
the m ix, and p l a n o n m i x i n g a b o u t 2 5 - 3 0 g r a m batches. However, what it's going to be used for is shark fishing. Seems my
dad used to use the old M-80's since the low frequency sound waves attract sharks. However, the new ones are obviously very
weak and the sound travels, well, practically no where. So that le ads to m y s e c o n d s e t o f q u e s t i o n s .
One, what affect does saltwater have on this flashpowder? I don't plan on letting them soak outsid e, but if I leave them in the
boat and it's moisture rich environmen t, will they becom e unstable or not work?
Secondly, it gets rough going out som etim es, and I was wondering what it takes to set one off...would 2 or 3 hours of rough
s e a s p r e m aturely set one off?
Like I said, I've seen the power of these flash powders and read about what they are capable of, so I'm he sitant to
thoughtlessly run head first into this. I plan on using the diaper method, and using as m uch safety precautions as I can
( e y e w e a r a n d g l o v e s ) , a n d u s i n g s m all am ounts, but like I said, one can 't be too safe.
Thanks for the time guys! Hopefully th is is in the right forum . I would think pyrotechnics, but it seems most flash powder
threads are in here. Hopefully I didn't screw up first tim e. I also searched a lot of this stuff, but som e of the specifics are
vague.
-Dave
Cobalt.45 October 26th , 2006, 06:46 AM

First you say you plan on m ixing 25 or 30g batches, then later say you are going to be as safe as you can.
An ounce of KClO4/ Al blackhead flash, if it were to go off all at once as you made it, would leave you in a heap of trouble.
Try m a y b e 5 g b a t c h e s . H a l f o f t h a t w i l l b a k e a h e c k o f a b a n g , I I R C t h e m ilitary M80's held about 3g of flash.
R e m ember that a boat is an isolated, lonely place to be if you h ave a hand half blown off. O r a fire.
I don't know anything about fish attraction by flash powder. But I do have first hand experience with chum. Why reinvent the
wheel? If the re's shark anywhere within m iles of you, a good chum line NEVER fails. M80's? Seems like a dud to me...
turbo923 October 26th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 1 : 2 3 P M

W ell, I wasn't sure, I thought the widely accepted method was le ss than 50 gram s. But I g uess starting very sm all would
probably be best for a first tim e .
W e d o u s e c h u m slicks, but to get a nice 5 m ile one going, it practically takes up half the day. Low frequency sound and the
vibrations it causes stim ulate a shark's lateral line and also has been known to stim u l a t e t h e a m p u l l a e o f L o r e n z i n i , e v e n
though it's for electrical pulse detection. Plus, sound travels a lot farther underwater than it does above, thus extending the
range far beyond what a day long clum slick could even do.
And if all goes well, I might m a k e s o m e for recreational fun, since I live out in the farm la nds.
Skean Dhu October 26th , 2 0 0 6 , 1 1 : 5 4 P M

W ell depending on how industrious you are and how m uch tim e you want to invest in this, you could m ake an electolytic cell to
m ake chlorate and th en convert that into perchlorate. O r since it looks like all you're after is a big bang you could use an
alternative flash form u l a , o n e n o t u s i n g K C L O 4 .
There are m a n y f o r m u l a e f o r p e r m a n g anate flash and chlorate flash on this forum as well as contained in the PFP
database(finding it is your first homework assignment) .
As for storing the prem a d e d e vices on your boat I would advise against that incase som eone who isn't sympathetic to your
cause finds them , or due to som e unforseen event they go off. I might consider storing the ingred ients in seperate containers
on different shelves and would definately m ix them the day I was going to use th e m . Y o u c o u l d e v e n g o t h e extra m ile and
have everyth ing prem e a s u r e d s o a l l y o u w o u l d n e e d t o d o i s m i x a n d p o u r t h e m into the casing. W hich only needs to be water
resistent for the delay of the fuse.
turbo923 October 27th , 2006, 03:15 AM

W ell, I wasn't plannin g on storing them long term on the boat, rather m ixing them at m y h o u s e , t h e n p u t t i n g t h e m o n t h e
boat the night before the trip, since mixing them at 3 a.m . probably wouldn't be the best idea, especially with m y alertness at
that hour. I'd probably do som ething careless from sleep deprivation. An d m ixing them offshore in a rolling sea...that's
probably not the best idea either.
I've seen other flash powder form ulas, however, I figured with the environm ent they'd be subjected to, the most sable form ula
w o u l d p r o b a b l y b e b e s t . U n l e s s t h e p e r m a n g a n ate flash and chlorate flash formulas are not as drasically unstable as the
perchlorate formula?
A n d t h e i d e a o f m aking perchlorate is m ost likely out of the que stion. We play each weekend by ear, and if it's rough, or looks
like a snotty day, we don't go out. I do want to use them for recreational fun, but I don't want to have to keep making batches
o n l y t o h a v e t o u s e t h e m all up having fun, or store the m until the next good trip . Something I can do the night before, or in
s m a ll quantities would be better, as opposed to spending the time and effort to make perchlorate, then the mix, only to not
be able to use it right away and have to do it again and again over tim e .
Thanks!

Developing the flash powder itself, whether it is from KC lO4, KMnO4 or black powder even, ultimately will be your de cision.
If I were to want to do what you're trying, I'd have to go with black powder. You don't even have to m ake it. Just use BP, not
Pyro dex or Triple 7, etc.
A so mewhat larger charge is required to get the desired underwater thum p, but when you consider the cost of a pound of BP
from the Gun Store, and what you'll pa y for the ingredie nts to make flash, then throw in the questionable legality of flash
devices- you get the picture.
This isn't to say flash is illegal, but it's OK to carry around a "pip e b o m b" m ade with BP. But it's easier to explain away havin g
BP.
Isn't there any other "better" way to achieve yo ur low frequency sound waves? A submerged water proof subwoofer comes to
m ind. Could be used with the sam e s o und system your boat ma y already have.
P l a y s o m e a m p e d h i p h o p t o ' e m . T h e n just ride around and pick up the dead shark, who will have killed themselves to end
their m isery.O r, som e L o u R e e d . T h e y ' l l f l o a t f r o m a h e r o i n O D . : D
FUTI October 27th , 2 0 0 6 , 0 4 : 0 2 P M

I s a w s o m e n e w s p e a k e r s o n w e b t h a t a r e l i k e t h o s e b i g b a l l s p e o p l e u s e t o p l a y o n b e a c h . O uter surface of ball is used as
m e m b r a n e o f the speaker while the sound m e c h a n i s m is inside the ball.
Go and search to see if that can be used to pla y the sharks what gives them plea sure... if it is water-proof just place it in the
water. You will have to check will frequency we use in ordinary speakers that transm it soun d to air be the same under water
but...little ex periment with computer can give you an answer.
turbo923 October 31st, 2006, 01:11 AM

W ell, the underwater speaker is full of so m any flaws it'd be nea rly im p o s s i b l e t o d o . I ' m s p e a k i n g practically and financially.
Now, with BP, how much would I need? Would the 12 gram CO2 cartridge work, or would I need more? And what about fuse?
W hen it burn s down, would the BP becom e saturated an d no t w o rk? Tha t s eems s i m ple and cost effective, but would it be the
best bet?
Also, I was at Cabela's in Ham burg. Does the BP m atter? Should I go with the "fast burn" BP or som e other type...they carry
a b o u t 2 0 t y p e s . I h o p e t h e y h ave cannon fuse there too...but I didn't see any.
krackerjack9 October 31st, 2006, 02:04 AM

I can just read the head lines now , Bo aters blow their b oat up for shark fishing!! W hile attracting sharks with a im p r o v i s e d
e x p l o s i v e t h e f i s h e r m en had dozen of sharks circling the boat when one victim m a d e t h e f u s e t o s h o r t a n d t h e e x p l o s i o n
though it too k place 20ft underwater was still enough to heave the boat upward and spill the two boaters in the water where the
sharks utlitm ately cam e what they were looking for.
Alexires October 31st, 2006, 03:06 AM

Uhhh, sorry to break up the party guys, but why the fuck are we bothering with this?
First thread = First po st

Spoonfeeding request
Nothing offered in return
And this has all been covered.
The only new thing in this thread is the idea of hunting sharks with flash powder...
T u r b o 9 2 3 , I h a v e n o p r o b l e m with newbies asking questions (I am a relative newbie) but for fucks sake, fo llow the rules yeah?
Y o u s a y y o u ' v e b e e n r e a d i n g t h e f o r u m s q u i t e a l o t , b u t y o u m u st have m issed the "U nwritten rule s, written down" and the
other newbie threads?
The least you could h ave done was post this in one of the MANY flash powder threads....
Here is m y advice. Go read the rules, then the flash powder threads, then make your own (sm all) batch. Then you can test out
the effects of saltwater on flash powder and post your findings back here.
Next you cou ld go about m aking about 10 of your little devices and putting it in a b o x . T h e n m a k e s o m ething that
a p p r o x i m a t e s t h e m o v e m e n t o f a s h i p and attach the b ox so that you can test th e effects of a rou g h s e a .
If you com e back to a bunch of splinte rs after a few hours, then you m ay want to rethink your idea of using flash on a boat...
Cobalt.45 October 31st, 2006, 12:01 PM

Turbo, there's no way that Cabela,s has that m any type s of black powder.:rolleyes: Just pick the finest grade. Meal if they
have it.
Fill a device with it, fu ze it, light the da mn thing and drop it in a bucket o f water.
Modify as needed until you get a reliable device.
Post what you've learned back here.
And, in deference to the above rant, don't ask anym ore questions 'till you've answered som e yourself.;)
ETCS (Ret) D e c e m ber 8th, 2006, 01:16 AM

This is an un usual, but interesting, application for sm all "thum pers" which will go off some sm all distance underwater. Kinda
r e m i n d s m e o f s o m e of the devices we had at our disposal in the Navy for use ag a i n s t e n e m y swim m ers - although those were
m uch, much larger.
An underwater shock wave does travel a considerable distance at a pretty good velocity - much further than is possible in the
atmosphere.
W ith a little creativity one can fashion a device from inexpensive and rea dily available materials which will be waterp roof and, if
desired, capable of being set off electrically by means of a sm all battery. I prefer electrica l detonation personally, because it is
ever so much more elegant than lighting a fuse.
As p rior posts have indicated, there are many choices of m aterials which will be suitable fo r producing the desired shockwave .
W h i l e K C l O 4 h a s m any m erits, even KNO3 will work adm irably as the oxy source for a powder which will deliver a good thum p
underwater.
Look around this site to get additional ideas and be creative. So me of th e greatest pleasure in doing any task is finding new
and unexpected ways to accomplish it.
And, when you've tried a few things, provide feedback for others to benefit from.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP Yields
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wymanthescienceman November 3rd, 2006, 08:25 AM

HI, I'm new to the forum and after much searching I could not find anywhere about how much yield one is to expect when
making AP. I have been trying synths of some things have only made a few things so far (IE NC and SA), and I have yet to try
and make AP mostly because of it's instability but now feel relatively confident in my abilities. The only H2O2 I currently have
access to is 3%, but I have the rest of the chemicals at hand and was wondering what would be the best acid to use and how
much. I have 98% H2SO4 and 31.45% HCl so which is better? The formula I was going to use is:
30ml 3% H2O2
6ml Acetone - (I've heard 1/5 acetone to H2O2 when using 3%)
So what type and amount of acid would be best and what kind of yields would I expect to get? Should I concentrate the H2O2?
Is there a specific ratio to how much AP I get based on amounts of acetone/H2O2? Also, does being too cold change/slow
down the synthesis? I was going to leave it outside covered between -5C and +5C. I mostly want to know how much yield is to
be expected so I know how much I have to dispose of afterward as I don't want to store it at all until I get a feel for its power
and stability issues, and even then I probably won't store it anyway, it's mostly for curiosity purposes. When I feel comfortable
with its properties I will try my own tests as to see what acid I like and how much etc. and report my findings to share. :)
I am soon to try Nitric distillation as well as I don't like nitration with nitrates. :(
P.S. If I broke rules about posting let me know. Sorry, my bad.
megalomania November 3rd, 2006, 09:30 AM

Yields will vary depending on technique. To my knowledge I have not seen any hard and fast reproducible yields being
reported in the literature. You may find some members on the Forum who reported yields, but most will not have accurate
analytical balances to give any results.
For my part, I can direct you to my website 'http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/acetoneperoxide.html' where I

describe some of your questions.
My information is the published Picatinny Arsenal procedure, which uses sulfuric acid. I have never found a published
procedure that uses hydrochloric acid, but there are enough people out there who swear by it.
I planned to do a study with controlled concentrations of hydrogen peroxide, different mineral and organic acids, and different
reactions temperatures to determine % yields. This is no simple undertaking since I would have to do three replicate trials of
some 15 variables to be tested for, or about 360 separate experiments.
In this situation I think you are best suited to answer your own question: Record the volumes of your reactants and weigh your
product.
Red Beret November 3rd, 2006, 08:37 PM

Hydrochloric acid works fine, it's all I've ever used and I never have a problem with it. The concentration of your H2O2 will
greatly affect the yield, and in my experience this is the major factor upon which yield is dependant.
Don't waste 98% Sulfuric acid on this (unless it's very cheap and easy to obtain for you), save it for Nitric acid manufacture or
Nitrate/H2SO4 nitrations.
In regard to yield, most people have moved away from large quantities of explosive peroxides, for a number of reasons,
stability and storage being the main ones. You don't need much AP for making a couple of caps, depending on your cap size,
you may need as little as 1g per cap, especially when used with a base charge such as PETN or Picric acid.
As mega said, run a few trials with what you have available, using the more common ratios out there, and weigh your product.
If you are happy with the results continue what you are doing. If not, try another method. But I would seriously reccomend
getting more concentrated H2O2
wymanthescienceman November 3rd, 2006, 11:54 PM

Thanks, I guess I should use just the HCl then. The H2SO4 I got was from some supplier online and it was $22.00US per
500ml and that's way too spendy for me to be using on AP with HCl 31.45% being about $5-$7/gal.
I at last tried AP, although I did use H2SO4 for my first run. It's been almost a full day and with a pint of 3%H2O2 and 60ml
acetone I have what looks like fumed silica (Cab-o-sil) very sparingly floating throughout the near clear solution with very little
precipitate on the bottom. I can't imagine it to weigh any more than 100mg. How long could this possibly take, more than a
week? Should there be more precip than this? Is it too cold at -5C?
I also tried to distill Nitric today but since I was using such a small test sample (10g H2SO4 8g AN) I didn't get more than a
drop in my collection vessel using larger equipment than required. I'm guessing since it was done in the cold (about 0C) it
couldn't get thru the condensor and would instead collect in the condensor neck and fall back into the reaction vessel. I'm
using a 500ml florence flask heated in a water bath at about 80-85C, and a water jacket cooled Liebig condensor but I don't
have it under vacuum. All joints are ground glass 24/40, but my collector vessel is not, it just has the end of the condensor in
it. Is this a problem? I got no red fumes at any time, the distillate came out clear and it tested Ph 0 or less. Any suggestions/
comments?
Red Beret November 4th, 2006, 12:25 AM

I would leave your solution for around three days when using 3% Peroxide. Thats what I used to do and I found that leaving it
longer provided no extra product. Really, to get decent yields you need stronger peroxide.
With your nitric acid distillation, what I have found, is, it is'nt really worth doing such tiny batches, you need a fair amount of
reactants to get a decent quantity of nitric acid. I can't comment on your setup a great deal, as mine was a very crude "old
school setup" and wasn't terribly reliable. That's why I just use the H2SO4 with nitrate for my nitrations. Bit of a pain, but at
the moment it's the best I have.
Your setup, although basic should be OK but it won't be THE most efficient out there. Don't quote me but I think you are
correct on the condensor. It should be a little warmer to allow the gas to actually get into the condensor. Obviously, if it's not
getting there (to the condensor) it can't go through and pass to the collecting vessel.
I believe mega has done an awful lot of work on nitric acid distillation, hence refer to his site or ask the man himself. As I
said, my experience with the afore mentioned procedure is limited. Good luck.;)
wymanthescienceman November 4th, 2006, 02:42 AM

Where can I get Conc. H2O2? The only place I've found it so far is online from places like "Guardian of Eden" but it runs
almost $55USD/gal with shipping. I can get it by the pint/quart but it's not worth it at over $30/qt. Is this the price to expect to
pay for 35%? And even if I get 10x the output of AP this doesn't justify the price at all according to what I'm getting now at
less than a gram per pint of 3%. That price seems a little high at about $1 per gram of AP, which is what it costs anyway with
3%. Where do you guys get your H2O2 from and at what concentrations?
c.Tech November 4th, 2006, 03:25 AM

I got my H2O2 from a pool chemical supply shop, $50 AUS for 5L of 10-20%
Then another forum member Ive been chatting to (jetz) found it for approx. $34.
:mad: I got ripped off. Moral of the story, shop around.
EDIT: Forgot to add it was for spa's

I keep hearing it can be at pool supply shops. I've been looking online and can't seem to find any. What's the name for it or
what is it for/what does it do in pools/spas?
UPDATE - I have tried concentrating the H2O2. I boiled it to about 1/4 of its original volume, about 12% or so. I was getting
impatient after boiling it for almost an hour (it was only 80ml) that I did the synthesis with slightly warm (about 50-60C)
peroxide and room temp Acetone/HCl. It turned light white within 5 min when I put it outside at -11C. and about 10min later it
had a layer of white stuff on top. I scooped a tiny amount out and held it over flame and it poofed. No odor no smoke just a
clear poof. I didnt do any exact ratio. I just added about 15ml Acetone to 20ml warm H2O2 and about 2-5ml HCl 31.45. As I
said I was IMPATIENT and it was such a small amount I wasn't worried about it being the dimer. I think I have success! I will
do more experiments and tests with it to check its stability and report my final yield and any findings later, after it completes
precipitation.
Red Beret November 4th, 2006, 05:13 AM

I believe it's called baquacil in the US. $55 per gallon is fairly pricey, but remember, it will last you a while. You can always half
the batch size so you don't make more than you need.
c.Tech- You got done as well! I paid around $25 for a litre of %15 back in the day. Now I go to the pool store. ;)

I have found Baquacil Shock & Oxidizer online at about $60 for 4 gallons incl. shipping, and it has to be bought by the 4
gallon case, but that works out to about $15/gal. That's the kinda price I was looking for. The problem is I don't want 4 gal! I
saw another product called Baquaspa Shock & Oxidizer and since its for spas its sold by the quart at about $7.50. Has anybody
had any experience with this product? I belive they are made by the same company so I don't see what the difference would
be. But I can't find an MSDS for either to see what's in it. Anyone?
PS - What is the percentage in Baquacil?
Cobalt.45 November 4th, 2006, 11:07 AM

If you've calculated the cost of your AP correctly, it would appear that your yields are very low.
Looking at old notes, I see that 4g yields were achieved using 220ml of 3% H2O2. This was after nearly 60 hours @ 5 degrees
C.
Using 35% H2O2 that costs $25/quart, HCl @ $5.50/gallon and acetone around $5.00/ quart, AP costs $0.04/g, give or take.
My advice would be to use 35% H2O2, and to keep your reaction temperature at 5 degrees C.
nmp2 November 4th, 2006, 02:45 PM

According to
www.poolspaforum.com
"...Baquaspa shock is 7.5% concentration and Baquacil shock is 27%..."
Alexires November 4th, 2006, 09:02 PM

C.Tech, talk to me about H2O2. I shall point you in the right direction.
I have found in the past that if you are making AP, two things that help (alot) is the amount of acid you put in, and the
concentration of your H2O2.
I have always had excellent yields following Mega's directions but using 10-15mL of HCl instead of H2SO4.
You should concentrate your H2O2 to at least 30%. When I concentrate my H2O2 I try to keep the temp below 80*C, but I
don't know if that really matters in regards to the decomposition of the H2O2.
I cool the Acetone and the H2O2, then add them together. Then add the HCl (all of this in a salt/ice/water bath) and keep it
below 0*C as I add the acid.
When the acid has been added, it goes into the fridge for a few hours (where it is about -6*C or so), then used.
If your going to be storing it (even for a few hours) make sure to neutralize and clean it.
rayman November 28th, 2006, 07:35 PM

I guess this is where I should post this picture, but first the method
Ap
50 ml HYDROCHLORIC ACID ( H C l )
50ml ACETONE
100 ml H2O2 (35%)
2000 ml H2O
Sodium bicarbonate ( Baking soda )
Mix 50 ml HCI With 50 ml ACETONE ( you will need more for filtering process), in a 500ml jar ( I use a thick freezer bag under
the lid to protect it from the acid ) Let sit in warm area for several days ( one week on avg in my experience) giving it a quick
swirl every day to keep it mixed, Once it forms in to a dark redish black oily looking liquid place in the fridge for a day or so
until you are ready for the next step, At this time also place your 100ml H2O2 in to the fridge
Place ice in a large ( salad bowl size with flat bottom ) bowl. place the HCI-Acetone mix jar into the ice ( I like to leave some
ice under the jar to promote water flow and even cooling all around the jar as long as the base of the jar is stable) add some
water into the bowl to about half again the level of the mixture in the jar.
once every thing is stable take your H2O2 and drip wise add 5 ml to the jar, stir it around ( I use wooded skewers ), The
temprature of this mix WILL JUMP IF YOU ADD H2O2 TO FAST AND WILL CAUSE BOILING IN THE JAR RELEASEING GAS'S THAT
WILL BURN YOUR EYES AND THROAT I KNOW THIS FOR FACT IT HAS HAPPENED TO ME, But that might have been HCI not used
in the reaction with ACETONE
Wait some time ( I wait at least 5 min before adding my next 5 ml ) stiring every few minutes, DO NOT LEAVE THE MIXING JAR
UNTIL IT IS COLD NOT EVEN TO PISS AT ANY TIME DURING THIS PART OF THE EXPERIMENT,
Every 5 min or so there after I add 5 ml until the temprature does not climb any more at this time I double the amount of
H2O2 I add. Also remember to replenish the ice as needed to keep the mixture cool ie .. if the skewer feels warm do not add
any H2O2 until the tempratiure has droped but keep stirring, Once all the H2O2 is used you will have noticed little flakes ( AP
crystals ) forming on your skewer, Add Bicarbonate a little at a time stiring it in, it will fizz and bubble, keep adding until the
fizzing and foaming stops.
Add several parts Water while stirring until the jar is nearly full , Filter ( I use a second jar and 2 coffee filters ( pre wet the
filters with water)) into a second jar, Once the first jar once its empty give it a quick rinceing out, Place the AP crystals on the
filter back into the first jar and rince out the second jar, Fill the first jar apx half full with water and give it some light stiring for
a min or so to get all the AP in the water several times to wash it, Repeat the filtering twice more, Once with acetone then with
water
Store in Actone or water if you are not planing on using in the next few days, It seems to take 2 - 4 days to dry out fairly well,
If stored in water maybe a week or if your if your drying area is damp, In my case it dryed out in about 24 hours as I had it in
actone,
The extra water that you havent used is a good thing it means that your reaction didnt start to get away from you, if your
mixture starts boiling pour water into the jar faster then ASAP I mean NOW, never think about it when it comes to safety first
... as the nike commercial says ... JUST DO IT
Always wear acid resistant gloves and a chemical cartridge respirator when working with acids/volitile chemicals
------------------------------------------
I typed that up just before going to bed so there may be slight errors, please inform me if you find any
Now for the picture

... AH cant seem to post pics atm sorry, but i will give a quick note on the picture now so once i am able to post it you will see
The AP on the right is the newer mix using this formula posted above, it a very fine powder the pile on the left is my first
batch, you will see a few table spoons on the left nothing to get excited about the crystals are very big.
As you can see the yields using this method are much better in the order of 2000%, As i do not have a scale to weight them
and the drying time is 14 days for the oldr 2 days for the new
Time to place it all in water storage

I fail to see the point in all this.
You've taken a relatively safe (less exothermic) process that takes several hours, and turned it into a week-long process with
the added deficit of increased risk from an uncontrolled exothermic reaction.
Please explain what I'm missing.

Rayman is using the "DPPP Procedure" to make AP. There really is no benefit of doing it that way since DPPP is not created by
that procedure.
Rayman if I were you I would mix the Acetone and H2O2 first, chill, then slowly add acid. It lowers the chance of runaway
exotherm and as a rule you add acid to water, not water to acid, or else you will get hotspots and spotboiling like you said you
got.

I may have made error's, If I knew every thing already I would not be here :-)
But thank you for pointing them out, Yes I turn it into a longer process and it can be done in a day, But my wife would kill me
if I messed up the stove in anyway shape or form
I use the DPPP ( I Learned the the recipe in a thread called 'DPPP the holy grail proxide 'or some such so the name has stuck)
(HCI - ACTONE - H2O2) method as thats the one i know and it works very well for me
I have not read the other methods in depth to even try to figure out the diffrence in the methods, NOt saying that any/eather
are better then the other
Anyway, heres the picture as taken, You look you decide, Thats using 100 ml of hci-actone 200 ml h2o2@35%
'http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5010/picture002qy9.jpg'
Thank you
c.Tech November 29th, 2006, 10:40 PM

Anyway, heres the picture as taken, You look you decide, Thats using 100 ml of hci-actone 200 ml h2o2@35%
:eek: How much do you make at a time? To dry huge piles of AP is extremely dangerous, if some of it goes off the whole
thing will deto nate but if you drie d it bits at a time even if there is a pile which d etonates it wouldn t le ad to catastrophe.
Why did you need that much AP in the first place?

I would be far more worried about AP killing you than your wife killing you Rayman. I never make more than 10 grams of AP
at a time(not that I make any AP nowadays), my advice is that you separate that pile into many smaller amounts and store
separately in water.
AP is extraordinarily unpredictable and has killed people who did not take our warnings seriously.

If you just went with the first "recipe" that you happened upon, you need to reassess your methods. Especially a method that
has been shown to not produce the peroxide compound that it was originally touted to produce.
DPPP procedure? I wouldn't dignify it as a procedure for anything. Unless you were after the dimer form, as a primary result.
Elsewhere, an exhaustive study was done to disprove the synthesis of DPPP by the method mentioned.
Research is at the root of any synthesis, be it AP or ?.
But my wife would kill me if I messed up the stove in anyway shape or form
You make AP on a lit stove, you won't have to worry about the wife killing you...:rolleyes:

and store separately in water.
Also a good idea to keep it in the fridge, if its not kept cold the crystals get bigger (being more hazardous) and changes from
TATP to the more sensitive DADP.
mike16 November 30th, 2006, 12:30 PM

Blimey, thats a lot of highly sensitive dry AP you have there.
When I make AP I use 50ml H2O2 (35%) and 40ml of acetone and usually end up with about 15-20 grams.
I would suggest you VERY carefully put it all in a bucket full of water and dry small 3-4 gram amounts at a time, I presume
you will use it for blasting caps?
A couple of weeks ago I tested a very small piece of my AP by hitting it with a hammer, I was suprised it only needed about 3-
4 centimetre drop from a small hammer.
Be careful.

I did not know what amount would be made from the reaction, The pile has been in the fridge in water/actone storage for
several days now, I will break down the amount into several containers as that sounds like good advice
Thank you
Controlled Chaos December 2nd, 2006, 03:44 PM

I keep hearing it can be at pool supply shops. I've been looking online and can't seem to find any. What's the name for it or
what is it for/what does it do in pools/spas?
Hydrogen Peroxide is used as an alternative to chlorine for pools. It keeps the water clean for people who are sensitive to
chlorine. I was asked if I wanted it for a science project, so I just replied "yes, it's a science experiment" :rolleyes: . I don't
know what it is about me that make people think I am not using it for its intended purposes. :D
I would suggest looking locally for your H2O2. I bought mine from one of many local pool shops for about 18$ a gallon. It was
Baquacil 27% H2O2. It says right on the back of the jug the ingredients and its sealed in a plastic bag.
It works Great and should last you a while unless you are making kilos of peroxide explosive at a time :eek: .
c.Tech December 7th, 2006, 11:05 PM

'http://www.geocities.com/thugsta785/Experiments.html'
Take a look at this, it seems that AP yield is greatly minimised when there is unreacted or excess acetone, letting some of the
acetone evaporate would greatly increase the yield.
Controlled Chaos December 8th, 2006, 12:05 AM

Nice c.Tech, something everyone has been looking for.
How does H2SO4 compare to HCL when making AP. For example yields and reaction times?

As I have n ever b een able to ge t H2SO4 I don t kno w but Ive heard somewh ere that sulfuric gives b etter yields than
hydrochloric. Don t kno w how accura te it is. I assume its correct.
Cobalt.45 December 9th, 2006, 12:28 AM

In that the acid is a catalyst, and not "used up" in the synthesis, it shouldn't matter, IMHO.
H2SO4 is more exothermic than HCl when used to make acetone peroxide. This leads to the belief that the dimer form might
be produced "locally" due to heating of the solution at the point where the sulfuric acid is added.
Slowly adding the H2SO4 will negate this effect, mostly.
As previously noted, the H2O2 concentration is what makes the big difference in yields.
SafetyLast December 12th, 2006, 04:47 PM

Back when I was reckless (before I lost a couple fingertips from the stuff) I used to use 100ml of Baquacil Chlorine Free Shock
and Oxidizer (27% H2O2) with 75ml of Acetone. This would generally produce between 45 and 50 grams of AP. This is about
60-70% of the theoretical yield. There is hardly any liquid left when you go to filter.
I don't reccomend making that much in one batch, so scale down accordingly.
If you don't want to buy a 4 gallon lot for $60 then just go to a pool store that carries it, I paid about $15 for a gallon and it
lasted me a couple years.
I've never had any real luck with the 3% stuff, maybe because the HCl becomes volatile and doesn't allow the catalysis of the
reaction.
You should be more patient wayman, calculate your ratios carefully.
Too much acetone will dissolve any AP and cause a very low yield.
Clairol makes a product called Clairoxide 40, this is 40 volume (12%) H2O2
It should be available from beauty supply/salons. Price is about $5/qt.
The proper ratio when using 12% H2O2 is 20ml of peroxide to 7ml of acetone.
H2O2 is volatile below the boiling point of water so just because you boiled it to 1/4 volume doesn't mean that it is 12%. AP,
when still wet will cause a small "poof" when dry it will burn in more of a quick "woomph" with a fireball.
stupid939 December 12th, 2006, 05:31 PM

I did an experiment with HCL vs. H2SO4 awhile back (before I could get 27% H2O2), and these are the results that I got.
(These amounts are not exactly Stoichiometric, but they worked fine)
I used:
500ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide

165ml of Acetone
50ml of 95% H2SO4 and 185ml 31.45% HCl
I let them react for 45 hours (fairly optimal for 3%) and I got a yield of 14.3g with the sulfuric acid, and a yield of 7.6g with
the Hydrochloric acid. That is 1.88 times as much. I'm sure the results would vary with different reaction times and percentage
of H2O2, but I think that this was long enough to wait.
I would use H2SO4 if you are using a low percentage H2O2, but once you start using something like 30%, you would either
need to use HCl, add the H2SO4 very slowly, or water the H2SO4 down.

OK, so what would be the best, safest ratio of the chemicals be to get the highest % yield of AP?
stupid939 December 17th, 2006, 02:32 AM

For the greatest yield, take a look at the link that c.Tech posted on the end of page 1. As the experiment shows, an excess of
H2O2 was best, and I would probably do a half batch to get 5g. It is a lot more than you would think, and is plenty for a few
caps.
The safest way to do it would be to maybe use HCl instead, and keep it as cool as you can (close to 0C).

OK, so what would be the best, safest ratio of the chemicals be to get the highest % yield of AP?
UTFSE, its in numerous threads around the forum as is in documents on other websites that can be found through google
a n d o n M e g a s site.

alright thanks guys. I got it figured out now.
al3x December 18th, 2006, 05:40 AM

I recently made a batch of AP for a detonator.
Using 150ml of 3% H. peroxide with 50ml HCl and 50ml acetone. I washed it with a sodium hydroxide solution and the final
TATP yield was 4.7g.
It's not much but its all I needed at the time.
SafetyLast December 28th, 2006, 05:30 PM

I've never used a hydroxide solution for the wash, I've always stuck to bicarb,
works fine for me and is cheap and plentiful.
I'd reccomend a few more rinses with water alone if you were using NaOH as you wouldn't want your AP to be left basic and
react with metal.
HMTD is notorious for being corrosive to metal, there was once a forum member that lost a large chunk of his leg from a CO2
cylinder filled with HMTD which went off in his pocket. (not sure if that was from friction or from reactivity or both) AP is only
slightly corrosive compared to HMTD.
I always use an excess of H2O2, not acetone as dissolved AP is not something to be fooled around with. It can form large
needly crystals when the solvent evaporates.
I don't know if anybody listed this yet, but the stoichiometry for the trimer is:
3H2O2+3C3H6O-(*catalyst)->(C3H6O2)3+3H2O
I write AP like that all the time, I don't know why.
In grams that's 102g H2O2, 174g Acetone

and products 222g C9H18O6/TATP with 54g H2O
When using 27% "Baquacil" that throws in 276g (~15mol) of H2O with your 3 mols of H2O2. H2O cannot be written into the
reaction since it is merely a carrier.
The catalyst is any mineral acid, I've even had success from Sulfamic.
Usually catalysts are written above the arrow, but I have no idea how to write superscripts or subscripts.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP Pellets
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View Full Version : AP Pellets
h2o235 November 3rd, 2006, 08:06 PM

While working today i came to an idea, I have made AP ( the dppp recipe ) and am thinking of placeing some within a pellet
to be shot out a pellet rifle
My thought is place maybe 1/2 or 1/4 gram (would that amount even fit in the small pellet head ?) into the pellet and if i can
modify the rate of acceleration ( most likely downwards), you would have a small explosion on impact causing small wounds
from the metal pellet's
I'm assuming that the range would drop a fair bit and alot of experimenting with the individual rifle would be required to fine
tune the air pressure
I honestly do not know if it can be done or if it would be worth doing
Can any one here shead any light on the practicality of this idea ?
thank you
ShadowMyGeekSpace November 3rd, 2006, 10:06 PM

You'd ruin an otherwise good air rifle attempting this, and possibly hurt yourself. This isn't a good idea at all, and this post
makes me doubt you've ever handled AP before.
You'd better pray the beast skips over this post, as it breaks the conventions set forth in The Rules, and is of dubious value.
edit: Just noticed it's water cooler.... a shame.
Lewis November 3rd, 2006, 10:09 PM

I agree with Shadow, definately not a good idea.
Perhaps a better idea would be to make AP targets for a pellet gun? Back in The Day I would use all sorts of sensitive low
explosives for pellet gun targets. AP would be a whole new level of exciting.
c.Tech November 3rd, 2006, 10:44 PM

You don't seem to know much about the sensitivity of AP, if your making highly sensitive explosives you should know some
basic safety of it and the chemicals being used.
Do a bit of reading on how dangerous it is, take safety precautions or you may end up like our ex-member phone.
'http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1570'
'http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/2311-storing-acetone-peroxide.html'
h2o235 November 4th, 2006, 06:24 AM

I Have made and handled AP, but I admit I do not know its full potential yet, I'm working towards learning
This is also my first explosive material and I'm trying to find any/all ways of using it
Thank you for your input and I will do more experimentation with it to learn its properties
Would any one be able to make a suggestion as to a material that can be used in this manner ?
Firearms are hard to come by for the avg person, but air guns are not
thank you
h2o235
EDITED : Also c.tech I have read the phone thread, I hope not to sound like a kewl or what have you

Sorry for doubting you, I though because you were thinking of shooting it out of a gun you didnt know about its sensitivity. I
now realise that you didnt mean just any gun (such as a propellant powered one) but just a simple air rifle.
And why delate the thread, if it is useful for information that will show people in the future what not to do it is useful here and
could lead to more discussion on the subject of explosive pellets.
Who thinks the use of Armstrongs mix on the outer layer with a flammable liquid core shot out of an air cannon is feasibly
safe in small scale?
It could be used to light your enemies buildings on fire from an distance.
mike16 November 4th, 2006, 07:35 AM

If you want to increase air rifle performance, I would suggest putting a small piece of guncotton behind the pellet.
I have done this before with my air rifle, without guncotton it shot a 16 grain pellet at around 550fps, but with a very small
piece of guncotton behind the pellet, it fired the same pellet at around 1300fps.
But this was the maximum velocity I could achieve without damaging the air rifle, too much guncotton would force the piston
back against the mainspring upon firing, which damaged the trigger, so i suggest experimenting with very small amounts first.
Sausagemit November 4th, 2006, 05:05 PM

Who thinks the use of Armstrongs mix on the outer layer with a flammable liquid core shot out of an air cannon is feasibly
safe in small scale?
I think it's very feasable. I have manufactured gel core airsoft pellets before. While not perfecly round, about half of them
fired out of the gun properly while the other half burst inside the gun. It's not exacly an art with LEXEL sealant and a syringe
filled with soy based gel and water. Part of it might have been the fact that I was using a homemade airsoft gun that shot at a
little under 500 fps too. :D
The LEXEL sealant smells like it's acetone based so my guess is it would burn fairly easily. The only problem is the bigger you
go the more unstable they get and the more you have to turn them to get them to dry properly and be round. Paintball sized
would be pretty tough to do and I think thats about the only size worthwhile.
I have never had any experience with Armstrong's mix so I don't even know what it's consistancy is or anything. I tried a quick
googleing but didn't dig anything up. Will do some looking into later on tonight, might have some flamable self igniting airsoft
pellets in the next week or so. ;)
Edit: Forgot to add in the part about using a CO2 powerd gun to fire them. Because then if one did burst in the barrel, a quick
pull of the trigger and the fire is out.
Alexires November 4th, 2006, 08:56 PM

C.Tech, I believe that the idea MIGHT be feasable. When you say air cannon, do you mean a slug gun, or something like a
spud gun?
Lets assume a spud-gun, as a slug gun just wouldn't have the range/capacity to do much damage.
You might have a problem with the projectile moving so fast it blows out the flame from the Armstrong's mix.
Maybe to decrease the danger, use a little Armstrong's mix at six points around the sphere (equidistant from one another)
and then the rest being some kind of KNO3/Sugar mix that has been melted around a ping-pong ball (Nitro Cellulose) filled
with a kind of napalm mix (good old petrol/styrofoam).
Hopefully with this, the friction would ignite the Armstrong's mix, which ignites the KNO3/Sugar mix, etc.
If you were really adventurous, you might put a small (2-5g) AP charge in the centre of the round (surrounded by something,
Al foil or something non-reactive) and hope that the napalm mix acted as a cushion so that it doesn't detonate in your spud-
gun...
When performing this experiment, hide behind something that will stop shrapnel.... and raining napalm.... and don't use a
good spud-gun first till you've fired 20 or so and they have ALL worked.
atlas#11 November 6th, 2006, 12:30 AM

I have done this before actualy. Using HMTD instead of AP, I placed a small ammount of HMTD mixed about half and half with
AN in the back of air rifle pellets and sealed it over with wax. I realise that hmtd reacts with the lead and becomes even less
stable salts, but I used them within minutes of making them and had quite a bit of fun. Fire them backwards though, the air
pressure might set them off in the barrel, plus they go off better if the explosive is actualy impacted rather than just the lead
tip.
These made a decent pop and were quite fun for tormenting the wildlife, I can't really think of any useful purpose they would
serve asside from igniting stuff from a distance. I was just getting rid of some old hmtd and having a bit of fun with it,
eventualy I just pilled it on a piece of paper and blasted it with a normal pellet as making the explosive pellets isn't a very
quick way to get rid of the stuff.
I guess if you have surplus AP and a cheap pellet gun, go for it, just don't make them too big, you're not going to get enough
ap into a projectile to do any dammage without risking your life beyond the acceptable level. If you want to do dammage, I
suggest you hang around here abit more before attempting explosive projectiles. They're quite tricky to make, and even well
made ones aren't very safe.

C.Tech, I believe that the idea MIGHT be feasible. When you say air cannon, do you mean a slug gun, or something like a
spud gun?
Yes I meant a CO2 air cannon large enough to shoot something about the size of a ping pong ball.
Or if it wouldn t have the range I was thinking of a rocket propelled na palm device, possibility being shot into the air to rain
burning napalm on your enemies.
In the end it would probably be better to have a timed igniter than any impact sensiative mix which could be unreliable.
As you stated the range would nt be as great as d esired just simply throwing fla ming napalm filled rubber balls could do the
job better than any air cannon.
h2o235 November 6th, 2006, 07:39 PM

I have done this before actualy. Using HMTD instead of AP,
its nice to know that some one has looked into it before,
If you want to do dammage
that is what I'm attempting
I suggest you hang around here abit more before attempting explosive projectiles. They're quite tricky to make, and even well
made ones aren't very safe.
Agreed, I have learnt many things in a short time here, And for that i thank all of you

I have just started experimenting with explosive pellets as well, I posted in a different thread though involving flash called
"MAGNALIUM vs Pyro aluminum".
My idea was using hollow point .177cal pellets and drilling a tiny amount of it out. Then filling it with packed SA til almost full,
and priming it with ring cap powder (Armstrongs?) and sealing it with a tiny circle of tape. Since all the powder is packed
(GENTLY :eek: ) it doesn't like to fall out.
I tested these and they were very cool, just do it from rather far away to avoid the shrapnel lead thrown out of the hole when it
explodes. I shot one into a 2x4 and it blew out a 1/4" x 1/4" hole plus splinters and made my ears ring for 10 min (I was in a
small garage :rolleyes: ), almost as loud as a normal firecracker. One could make them more sensitive for small animal
control by maybe attaching a tiny BB or something to the tip to provide better initiation from a soft target. Very sweet indeed.
sparkchaser November 10th, 2006, 04:46 AM

'http://www.airgunsbbguns.com/Career_Dragon_Slayer_Air_Rifle_50_cal_p/shin-sung-career-dragon-50.htm'
Found this last night while perusing for a new air rifle.

A .50 cal. airgun opens up a lot of possibilities in regards to explosive ammo.
Too bad the price is so high.
Sparkchaser, did you make a decision on what to get? I picked up a Gamo Shadow some time ago. 1000fps for >$80.00US.
The quality is very good for the price, as is the accuracy.
Junk compared to a real airgun, though.

Even though this is the water cooler I wish you would Use The Fucking Search Engine.
There was a thread started a while back that was titled improvised air rifle munitions, guess what... it's still there guys, so why
don't you search, find it and then realize everything in this thread is redundant because it was already discussed elsewhere.
Not only has this been discussed in the thread I mentioned it has been discussed in other threads too. Somebody even
manged to make explosive paintballs out of MEKP and hollow plastic spheres IIRC. I did a quick search for that thread but
could not find it, it may have been lost in one of the forum moves. The results of said paintball on a piece of plywood were
very interesting to look at.

Then filling it with packed SA
Got a case of brain fade, I guess. What's SA?
Some good effects can be had by filling the base of the pellet, then insert it backwards.
Also, #8 lead shot can be used to cover the hole and act as a "hammer" to the pellet's "anvil" to initiate the compound.

SA = Styphnic Acid (Trinitroresorcinol)?
Around these here parts ;) we refer to Sulphuric Acid or Sodium Azide by the abbreviation SA, depending on context.
Desmikes November 12th, 2006, 08:13 PM

In most ex-soviet contries that I've visited, you can purchase exploding pellets for air rifles. They are longer than regular
pelets. They have some black powder surrounded by plastic/lead and a small copper ring on the rear end of the pellet. When
such pellet strikes a hard surface (bone/wood...not as good w/soft tissue) it detonates with a flash of light and a reasonable
crack. The accuracy is not very impressive, but i am sure that it's better than anything that you can make in your garage. You
can probably do a mail-order if your local sports store doesn't stock that type of pellets.
Cobalt.45 November 13th, 2006, 01:24 PM

In most ex-soviet contries that I've visited, you can purchase exploding pellets for air rifles.
Those sound interesting.
Nothing like that's available in the USA, AFAIK.
Anyone know if they are, or can be, can be imported?
Something else we don't have, (or need, thankfully) are .22 cal. Toad Loads. Deadly out to ~100' on cane toads and the like.
They sound less powerful than CB's. I'd like to try them...
Alexires November 14th, 2006, 03:57 AM

Maybe even Salicyclic Acid, NBK....?

Salicylic Acid is not an explosive.
Chopper November 14th, 2006, 02:56 PM

Nope, but Silver Acetylide is. That's where my $5 bet lies.
camharris133 March 30th, 2008, 08:56 PM

I can help you here. By using AP, you risk damaging the inside of your gun.
Instead, you can take a small rifle primer and epoxy it to the tip of a flathead pellet. The damage done is intense and alot
better and safer than an AP pellet.
PETERCPA April 1st, 2008, 08:48 PM

In most ex-soviet contries that I've visited, you can purchase exploding pellets for air rifles. .
When I was a kid filled the rear of .17 caliber pellets with Armstrong mix. When I shot one inch pine board with them they
explode with a flash and bang about half way through and blow a big chunk out the back of the board. They were very much
fun to shoot. I mixed the Armstrongs wet, pressed the pellets into it and lay them on their sides to dry. I wasn't careful with
the mix but it was wet and I mixed 1/10th gram lots at a time.
SafetyLast August 2nd, 2008, 01:48 PM

I have tried this before, several years ago. I used flat point wadcutter pellets and filled the skirts with a small amount of AP
(You can really only use about 50mg or maybe less as there's not much volume there) the ends were then sealed with a small
amount of contact cement.
I fired the pellets backwards at a cinderblock at about a 50ft range. They only go off about half of the time. I don't really
recommend doing this as their is the possibility of detonation in the barrel or a jam. Even though such a small amount of isn't
enough to do much damage it would still make for a nasty surprise if it went off in your hand.
I also used to fire small rifle primers from .223 ammo, these fit perfectly into the bore of a .177. Same as above they're only
about 50% reliable.
totenkov August 2nd, 2008, 06:36 PM

Even a small amount of AP in a pellet for would be devastating to human flesh upon det inside the barrel. I used to have a 6
round black powder pistol, you had to have quite a wad in there to avoid the other chambers discharging when firing a round.
If the powder went up in the other chambers, the gun would just explode, I seen some mangled hands because of it. The
same effect would come from stuffing a primary explosive into a small barrel and then hitting it with a blast of air, common
sense guys.
FortiusPenguin August 2nd, 2008, 07:42 PM

Aye, I would advise against this idea completely...
I'm sure it's good fun, but unreliability and uncertainty will only lead to another AP disaster. I'm likely far from the most
experienced experimenter when it comes to AP, but I've been handling the stuff for a good couple of years now, and I can tell
you that high speed propulsion of AP or anything involving AP is pure nincompoopery!
It WILL damage your gun, and likely your hand, if it were to go off in the barrel. Your hand won't be pink-misted, but it won't
be pretty.
If you are just looking for a good bang, make an AP target, and shoot it with a normal pellet. If you are looking for damage,
just use a bigger caliber...
TheSavageHyena August 2nd, 2008, 08:21 PM

Aside from the small pleasure of watching a pellet 'explode' after firing, there is little practical use. It is useful a small scale to
perhaps use as a guide for something larger. The Varmint grenade .22 bullet is another good example however I doubt it
uses any HE in them. http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/varmint-grenade/
They employ a relatively safe way to discharge these bullets with little chances of it exploding in the gun. They differ from
incendiary rounds but don't detonate so I'm a bit confused as to how they work. I would love to get an exploding round for a
larger caliber rifle or even pistol, however I would need the safety there before I even try it.
colniko August 3rd, 2008, 02:21 PM
TheSavageHyena: That round is NOT explosive in the sense that it actually explodes. It is simply a highly frangible round,
meaning on impact it pretty much disintegrates. Usually these types of rounds are used to prevent over penetration.
I read a few posts down what sounded like people filling the tail end of pellets with the Exp and placing them backwards in the
gun and firing that way. I would imagine that would be like tossing a coin in the air and guessing heads or tails. That would be
like trying to throw a dart tail end first and hoping it still sticks in the bullseye. I am sure you can get it to stick SOMETIME's.
What is probably happening is the pellet is tumbling in the air thus accuracy is gonna be crap and it's a 50/50 as to whether its
going to strike it's intended target just right as to detonate the Exp.
Of course, I could be wrong. Just my thoughts on this. As this is my first time posting on here I hope I don't get beat up too
bad for nay saying an idea. I wish I had a suggestion as to how to go about making this idea work. To me it sounds like an
interesting concept.
Rbick August 4th, 2008, 05:31 PM

The varmint grenades are not actual grenades. There is no explosive involved aside from the propellant and the primer. The
magic lies in dispersing the bullets energy quickly, resulting in a massive wound cavity that is too large for the small body of
the animal to contain, thus resulting in an explosion of flesh.
This is accomplished by having a very thin copper jacket around the soft, hollow core of the bullet. It is all in the bullet design.
The thin jacket quickly peels away upon contact, revealing the soft core, which fractures into multiple, flat junks of metal. A
friend of mine who is obsessed with reloading actual designed his own varmint grenades. He took a normal boat tail bullet and
shaved a couple thousands off the tip, making a flat point. He then shaved the copper jacket as thin as possible. His rounds
are just as effective and he pays 1/3 the price, aside from his labor.
Just think about the difference between getting shot by a full metal jacket or a hollow point. The hollow point will spread out,
releasing all of its energy into the surrounding flesh, causing maximum damage. The FMJ will simply pass through the target,
taking its energy elsewhere. Research Terminal Ballistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics) for more specifics.
The link presented leads to wikipedia, which seems to have a great deal of info on the subject.
A search of youtube will show that a few people have opted to seal bullet primers to the top of pellets. This seems to be the
most safe and effective means of achieving an exploding pellet. I myself have taken interest in the subject as we have a
rabbit infestation where I live in the city. It is illegal to use fire arms and my cheap air rifle requires a direct brain hit to kill the
animals. The area is about 3cm by 3cm directly behind and above the eye. I can do it quite consistently, but having a pellet
that would explode might make my odds better, and more entertaining. I'll have to do some testing on the effects on
accuracy as well. It appears that the primed pellets explode quite well in contact with particle board/plywood. The hardness of a
rabbit skull is comparable to that of plywood, I hope. We can speculate anything, but only experimentation will tell us for sure.
We'll see :D
As for AP, I would never put it in anything in an air rifle. You're just asking for a shredded hand. Unless you can find a safe
way of doing it, I wouldn't think about it. Plus it is easier to just go buy some small arms primers down at the gun store. Good
luck everyone :)
Secong Nature August 11th, 2008, 08:09 AM

My idea would be a hollow point .22 caliber round with the point full of a decent secondary explosive, like ETN. Not TNP as it will
react with the lead and I don't think that firing bullets at those speeds would leave a primary alone.
Would the momentum of the bullet slamming into the ETN detonate it, providing it was a hit on bone?
-=HeX=- August 11th, 2008, 08:15 AM

Well, people have made explosive targets from ETN s I dont see why not... And john hinkley junior made exploding rounds
using lead azide... But if you are really into explosive bullets look into the RAUFOSS round.
Using TATP in explosive bullets or pellets is terminally stupid, and leads to getting a darwin award.
Rbick August 11th, 2008, 11:06 AM

Using TATP in explosive bullets or pellets is terminally stupid, and leads to getting a darwin award.
Totally agree! Despite our warning Hex, I bet you some people will still try it though :rolleyes:
ETN is easily initiated through a hammer test. The energy of a .22 round hitting a hard object at high velocity is substantially
greater, so why not? Using a standard .22 round at standard velocity would be a BAD idea. Check out the links below to see
special .22 ammunition. The Aguila Super Colibris fire at around 500 FPS and have no powder. They are only double primed.
The CCI CB has only a small bit of powder but is almost as quiet. Both produce about as much noise as a pellet gun. The
reason I reccomend not using standard .22s is for the fear of the powder charge initiating the ETN. This wouldn't be an issue
with these rounds.
Aguila Super Colibri (http://www.smokewagongear.com/p-120-aguila-22-super-c0libri-20gr-bullet.aspx)

CCI CB (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=638772)
I would start trying with the CCI CBs. They have a higher velocity and a larger bullet so you can pack more explosive in there.
Just do the proper testing before loading a full bullet! As Hex said, you don't want to be in this years Darwin awards :D
EDIT: I haven't tested these rounds with ETN. I have however super glued a small rifle primer to the tip of a Super Colibri
round and fired it. When fired at a hard object, it detonates well and is fairly accurate. It takes a good chunk out of cement
blocks, a lot more than a normal round would. The way I secure the primer is by shaving the top off the bullet to form a
relatively flat, smooth tip. Then I put a thin layer of super glue on the bullet and press the primer gently on to it. Then I give
it about 10 minutes to dry. Make sure the primer is directly in the center of the bullet!
Yafmot October 15th, 2008, 03:46 AM

Awright you guys, stand back & let me show you how it's done. While playing around with railway torpedo comps, I got
interested in projecting this stuff and making it go off downrange. After about a half dozen iterations, this is what I settled on.
Due to availability, you may find yourself trying various substitutions, but if you've got all this stuff, I guarantee you'll have
some real fun & maybe scare the crap out of your neighbors. You'll need:
6 gr. KClO3 (for sensitivity)
4 gr. KClO4 (for extra oxygen once things get going)
4 gr. S (primary fuel)
3 gr. WET 3 micron Zr. (or as fine as you can get)
3 gr. BiO3 (catalyst & high temp Oxidizer)
5 gr. 1.5 mm & down Ti sponge (for pleasing visuals)
5 gr. ordinary sand (sensitizer)
1 small squirt of Elmer's Glue All (binder)
H2O as needed for texture, mixing and handling.
Weigh out S & BiO3. Pour together in plastic margarine tub or similar size plastic container (preferably sealable). Gently shake
laterally until they're mixed (BiO3 is a cast iron bitch to mix into wet anything). Add wet Zr. Stir with popsicle stick or similar
until color is even. Add no more than 1/4 tsp. Elmer's (accounting for tare). Repeat stirring. Add KClO4 & mix thoroughly.
Repeat with KClO4. Add water if it's getting too stiff. Just a few drops & mix. Add Ti & mix. Make sure the consistency is about
that of straight Elmer's or a little thicker. Mix in sand. Add a little extra water if you're going to store it. Keep in 'fridge until
ready for use.
Wash a few pellets until completely free of oil. Prepare a drying board by perforating foam meat packing tray, 10 rows of 5.
Insert test pellets nose first in holes (or fill all 50 holes if you want). Holes don't have to go through, just enough to grip the
pellets and hold them in place.
Using a flat toothpick, or a cocktail straw scoop up a little mix and place in the skirt cavity of a pellet. Mix should be about the
consistency of mashed potatoes. If it's too thin. add a little more Oxidizer and sulfur (about 2-1, respectively). Too thick?
Couple drops of water & maybe a little (very little) more glue. If it's just stiff enough, you can go ahead and fill it higher than
the rim of the skirt. Trust me, it does make a difference.
You can let them dry all night, or speed things up with a blow dryer. To do a quick dry, make sure the drying tray is somehow
secured (two-sided tape will work) and position the dryer so the blast hits at about a 45 degree angle. Put it on medium heat,
which may not be the same thing as the medium setting. Some dryers put the same amount of juice to the heating coils
regardless of the fan speed, so the medium setting might be the hottest of the bunch, low being just straight air.
After a couple or three hours, take a pen or pencil & tap on the charge of a pellet. A good way to test is to put a couple of
freestanding charges on the board in open areas, and that way you can test for dryness without ruining a pellet.
If you're stacking the stuff higher than the rim of the skirt, try to keep the charge as concentric as possible and avoid
overhang. Not just for stability, but because the stuff has sand in it, and you don't want to wreck your bore.
And you don't need to go out and spend $400 on a 1,000 fps velocity monster, and you certainly don't need a $1,200
Feinwerkbau, or a $3,000 Anschutz. I've been using a $45 Crosman .177 multipumper and it works just fine with 4 or 5 pumps
in it. I shoot at a 12x12" ceramic flooring tile, since it's hard enough to insure a det, and so far the only beakage has been
from knocking them over.
Just load 'em in backwards, hit something hard, and you'll be rewarded with a Black-Cat-like blast and Incandescent Ti
fragments going ten feet in every direction. And (assuming you have a rifled barrel) you should get near-100% reliability.
Here's something wierd, though. I taped a small piece of paper to the tile, squirted it with lighter fluid, and immediately
whacked it with a pellet with a particularly large charge in it, and it didn't light. I tried it a few more times, and then with various
other solvents (Acetone, Methylene Chloride, MEK, the works). It didn't light any of them. There's got to be some considerable
heat to make that Ti incandesce, so why won't it light the stuff?
Anyway, if you really want to make some noise & be the life of the party, scale ip the mix and trowel about 2 grams each into
some 3/4" cup sets, filling the little one about half to 3/4 full. Then give 'em the dryer treatment overnight. When they're
good & firm, glue on the caps, and when they're completely dry, they'll be ready for mashing. I just use a big river rock about
the size of a bowling ball, or maybe a little bigger. Set the thing on the sidewalk, hold the rock directly over it, and as soon as
you let go, you'd better have your ears covered. I'll go off as loud as a railroad torpedo, or maybe a little louder, spew Ti
sparks for a 30 foot radius. Oh. and do it with long pants on, or you shins will look like ground meat from the sand flying out.
I just bought an old Benjiman .22 pump pistol from a friend of mine, and as soon as I get the time, I'm going to try those
out. They seem to have about 3x the cavity volume, so it should be fun.
Also, I have a friend who's a contract reloader for several police & sheriff departments, and I'm going to have him load me up
some hollow-based .38 wadcutters with the cavities facing forward. That's about ten times the volume of the .22 pellet, at
least. Should be interesting. And don't worry, it'll be propelled with a squib load.
So, whaddaya' think?
iHME October 15th, 2008, 08:24 AM

Awesome stuff if/when I get my hands on everything needed, I'm trying this. :D
-=HeX=- October 15th, 2008, 03:26 PM

Nice work Yafmot! Now I have used zirconum only once before so I am not sure about its properties, except that used in a
flash powder its too dangerous to use. Now if only I had a pellet gun to try it with. Maybe I will improvise. The comment about
them not igniting the lighter fluid is very interestin. Could you grab some media of the rounds?
Yafmot November 4th, 2008, 04:03 PM

Whoops! Re: Post # 35. That was a little heavy on the Sulfur, so either use less or add more Oxidizer. I just whipped up a
scaled up batch of that recipe, and it was stinky and way too slow. The pellets just made some sparks, and when samples were
ignited it gave off way too much smoke and SO2. I just added a bunch more KCLO3/O4, and when I get some of that dried
out I'll test it and, if necessary, add even more Oxidizer.
Stay tuned.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Just purch a s e d
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TheBlasterMan Novem ber 27th, 2006, 07:03 PM

W ell this is m y first post so dont chew m e out if i did som ething wrong
I p l a n o n m aking Flash Powder, I purchased Amm onium Perchlorate and Powdere d Alumm inum 62 5 m e s h .
here are the links:
http://cgi.ebay.com /Alum inum -Powder-1LB-625Mesh-Lowest-SHIPPING-

buySAFE_W0Q Q i t e m Z 1 5 0 0 6 2 1 9 3 6 9 0 Q Q i h Z 0 0 5 Q Q categoryZ25 67QQ rdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com / A m m oniu m-Perchlorate-Superfine-Powder_W0Q Qitem Z 2 7 0 0 5 3 0 5 4 6 4 5 Q Q i h Z 0 1 7 Q Q categoryZ10 4

2 3 3 Q Q s s P a g e N a m e Z W DVW Q Q r d Z 1 Q Q cm dZViewItem
I beleive this should work, im using 70 percent Amm o u n i u m P e r c h l o r a t e a n d 3 0 p e r c e n t A l u m i n u m . W h a t d o u t h i n k a b o u t h is?

I c h o s e A m m onium P erchlorate of Potassium because i was toled its safer, better to use, and i know for a fact its cheaper.
W hat are your 2 cents?
beirut Novem ber 27th, 2006, 07:35 PM

That won't work. PKunlimited sells spherical ato mized Al, which is useless in flash powder.
This is from the thread "Problem with flash powder" in P yrotechnics.

xXexplosivesXx:
Many people believe it has to do with surface area, but in reality, a spherical particle has much more surface area than a flake
relative to its m ass, but a flake will burn m uch faster and light easier due to a spherical particle's tendancy to absorb the initial
heat of reaction, requiring more energy input to burn.
Thread for reference: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum /pyrotechnics/514 4-problem -flash-powder.htm l
Bert Novem ber 27th, 2006, 08:40 PM

Tim e t o f e e d the beast.
Failure to read and abide by the rules. First post starts a new thread on a previously (heavily!) discussed subject, in the wrong
section to bo ot... Poo r gram m ar and spelling, I/i, and k 3wl sp33 k use of "u" for "you".
deadman Novem ber 27th, 2006, 08:54 PM

TheBlasterMan:
Since you were "toled" that am m onium perchlorate is safer than potassium perchlorate, didn't you bother to ask if it would
work in a pyrotechnic com position (not other explosive) using a ratio designed for a completely different oxidizer?
As for your "Powdered Alumm inum" it would be much more effective for flash if you ball m illed it with brass media for a few
hours to distort the spherical shape of the alum inum .
For a castable rocket fuel, what you ha ve is just fine (exluding binder and curing agent), but for flash I'd re think your strategy.
Last question: How do you figure that $19 for a pound of am monium perchlorate is cheaper than under $9 for potassium
perchlorate?
TheBlasterMan Novem ber 27th, 2006, 10:23 PM

Im going to catch hell for this but i cant purchase chem icals from suppliers. Im 17 years o ld so its harder for m e to get them
(must be 21). It would be nice to have a private supplier, can anyone help m e out? If what im hea ring is true im go i n g t o u s e
potassium perchlorate.
Sorry for the spelling and gramm er m i s t a k e s .
Cindor Novem ber 28th, 2006, 01:00 AM

Don't you even look for prices ???
KClO4 is m ade by electrolisis (KCl + 4 H2O + Electricity > KClO4 + 4 H2 )
N H 4 C l O 4 e s m ade by neutralization (NH4OH + HClO4 > NH4ClO4 + H2O ), so you fist have to get the Perchloric Acid from the
Sodium/Barium salt and then react it with am m onium .
c.Tech Novem ber 28th, 2006, 02:33 AM

It m ay be a little harder to get the electrodes for the reaction from chlorate to perchlorate, and if you want NH4ClO4 m a k e s u r e
your perchlorate contains no traces of chlorate or you will get the extrem ely unsta ble NH4ClO 3. On the chlorate/perchlorate
thread/s there is som e t h i n g a b o u t d e c o m posing chlorates.
tmp Novem ber 28th, 2006, 02:52 AM

Actually, am m onium p e r c h l o r a t e c a n b e m a d e b y t h e m e t a t h e s i s m e t h o d
with another perchlorate. The bitch is getting th e shit to dry completely
without reaching its decom position point(above 66C, IIRC). Drying under
vacuum work s well for m e but it's still tim e c o n s u m i n g .
TheBlasterMan, you violated several Forum rules and a mem ber has pointed
this out. It'll be up to a moderator or administrator to determine what
happens now.
In the mean time read The Rules and UTFSE. NH4ClO4 is m ore expensive than
KClO4. $19 + shipping for a pound of NH4C lO4 is a ripo ff IMHO !
TheBlasterMan Novem ber 28th, 2006, 10:53 AM

I dont want to get into the m anufactering process of producing chem icles, i am not experienced enough. Safety is o n m y m ind,
I want reliable resources. Ive decided to go to Potassium Perchlorate, and Alum in um Powder with mesh greater then 600.
Anyone know any private suppliers? Once again, sorry for the inconvenience.
nbk2000 Novem ber 28th, 2006, 11:39 AM

Sure, why not...we'll just give up our precious reliable sources to a total n 00b who has contribute exactly ZERO to us, just for
the asking. :) :rolleyes:
Oh, and I just LOVE the sloppy gram m ar.
W hat a punter.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nonex
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Bert December 8th, 2006, 11:40 AM

There was a fire with multiple injuries at a fireworks company in the Midwest last month. I've received information that the company was making cartridges for a low explosive
rock blasting system, said to produce only Nitrogen, CO2 and water vapor upon deflagration- I take it from that information that the powder may be related to
the tetrazole based airbag inflator compositions?
It's claimed not possible to detonate these, and the cartridges are classed 1.4S or 1.4C (same as a gas generator cartridge or small arms ammunition) depending on which
source I look at. On the face of it, that's insane. If it will blast rock in a borehole as effectively as black powder, it will certainly blow up a shipping container or other confined
storage quite effectively. The company web sites repeatedly calls the stuff "non explosive". ATFE defines Macgyver bombs as explosive devices and they don't even burn.
Claims are made that a construction company can just keep these in their trucks or on their jobsite with none of the storage and transport requirements for normal explosives.
I'm going to have to ask my BATFE agent about that... Nice if it's true.
Here are links to a couple of divisions of the company offering these:

http://www.nonex.com/
http://www.nonex.co.za/2_1overview.htm
http://www.nonex.ie/
I'm interested in the chemistry of these devices, of course. I'd also be interested to know if any of you have seen or used this system.
Chopper December 8th, 2006, 12:48 PM

I've never seen the devices personally Bert, though I can tell you that they were used in the rescue of the two miners that were trapped in Tasmania earlier this year. The last
cartrige was reportedly fired just 45cm from the guys, with no ill-efect. A little fly-rock but nothing to worry about.
It's probably of no consequence, but I think you'll find that the company actually claims the cartiges release mainly the gases you mention, not exclusively.
I note that double-base powder is less than worthless for most fireworks, since the burn-rate climbs expoentially with increased pressure and starts at a rather low figure at
atmospheric pressure. Unlike BP, that has a much flatter curve, that's higher at the origin - rendering it usefull for fireworks.
Given that the classification 1.4 whichever-it-is mandates that the product must not explode when ignited in it's original packaged form, it sounds reasonable enough that yet-
another formulation may be seen to exhibit a similar burn-rate vs pressure relationship to DB powder.
I looked these things up after the guys were freed from the mine in Beaconsfield, but was never able to come up with much more than the material you mention.
One thing of interest that I did note however, was that the system apears to perform it's work by breaking the rock in tension, rather compression as is the case with HEs.
Rather than pulverising the rock with the outward-radiating shockwaves, the system is reported to work by tearing the rocks apart by the gases that are forced into the ever-
expanding cracks.

Question is, since it's classified as a non-explosive, can anyone buy it?
I tried calling them several times, but always got a fucking machine, and RTPB'd it (hang up).
Sounds like something that'd have a lot of potential for criminal (mis)use. :)
Low noise fracturing of reinforced concrete...:D

Well I got a call back from the idiots! :mad:
I didn't leave a message when I got their recording, but they called me back (the danger of 800 #'s) and asked to speak to whoever called them (they didn't have a name).
When asked what the call was in regards to, they said they manufacture dynamite. :rolleyes:
That's real discrete, given how they're calling back what could have been a wrong number, and with no name to ask for.
What if someone had dialed their number by mistake from work, calling for some other company, and these guys call back asking to speak to whoever called about dynamite.
If the boss or the office toady got that call, or the parent or spouse, guess what could happen?
Felixuxo November 27th, 2007, 08:51 AM

Hi Guys . This is my first post. Based in the UK. A dear friend of mine owns a company called PBC "Nonex" systems here is the link :-
http://www.nonex.co.uk .
He has no connection with the company that you refer to and there are a lot of issues as to who owns the name Nonex
The articles that you refer to are very low explosives which deflagrate are placed in haz cat 1.4s and are not controlled due to there design .The MSDS would show basic
pyrotechnic compositions and materials These would have little to no interest in the terrorist community where High order detonation is required for maximum effect these are
made purely for the break up of rock and do the job very well this is because they are gas generators and work best with a great deal of tamping I hope that has been of use
to you

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tetraazidom e t h a n e
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in_flames January 8th, 2007, 05:46 AM

This chemica l was recently pre pared by Klaus Banert in 2006. It has the chemical formula C (N3)4 and is an extrem e l y u n s t a b l e
explosive.
It is prepared by reacting trich loroacetonitrile (Cl3C CN) with sodium azide (NaN3).
Further reading can be found:

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/84/i51/8451chem istry.html
http://sanjayat.wordp ress.com / 2 0 0 6 / 1 2 / 0 6 / t e t r a a z i d o m e t h a n e /
T h i s c o m p o u n d s e e m s to be too unsta ble to be useful at the m o m ent however it might be possible to react it with another
c o m p o u n d t o m aintain power and increase stability.
I a m b y n o m e a n s e q u i p p e d o r e x p e r i e n c e d e n o u g h t o t r y t h i s b u t t h e i n formation m a y b e u s e f u l t o s o m e p e o p l e .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Another spontainious detonation m ixture
and safty lesson
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shooter3 January 8th, 2007, 10:57 PM

Sorry for the long article. The link was long and wouldn't copy correctly, but this is obviously useful inform ation.
SAFETY O F CO PPER/BRASS SC REENS W I T H C H L O RATE C O M P O S I T I O N S
By
The WiZ (donald j haarmann)
(The following article was in re s p o n s e t o E d R a s z k o w s k i ' s Q u e s t i o n i n P G I

Bulletin No. 38.)
Dr. McLain and Donald Lewis; Effects of Phase Change in Solid-Solid

Reactions-1966, [my copy courtesy of E.R.], de termined that when a
m ixture of potassium chlorate was doped with copper chlorate, a n d t h e n
ground with purified sulfur [a brave m o v e ] , t h e m i x t u r e d e t o n a t e d
spontaneously after being let stand undisturbed on a shelf for only thirty
m inutes! The experim e n t w a s r e p e a t e d u s i n g t h e s a m e c o m p o n e n t s ,
sim ply placed in a plastic vial and m ixed by "tu mbling the vial
a p p r o x i m ately ten m inutes about its m ajor axes." After approxim ately
twenty-four hours of standing behind a barricade, a similar detonation
occu rred. [A less complete discussion of this work is reported in Dr.
Milan s bo o k ; p g . 7 8 . ]
They conclud e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e s e e x p e r i m e n t s t h a t ; " A s i d e f r o m t h e

spectacular, the finding that a potassium chlorate could be m ade which
when ;nixed with sulfur is spontaneously detonable at room tem perature
there is a byproduct(s) of this experim ent."
The doctrine of using brass, bronze or copper screens, tools and jigs for
pyro technic mixing and loading for non-sparkin g properties certainly
needs to be reexam ined in light of these findings. Emphasis added]
The warning is repeated by Ellern.
J.C. Shumacher; Perchlorates: Their Properties, Manufacture and U s e ;

page 206+ff reports that the "***deco mpositio n [of am m o n i u m p e r c h l o r a t e ]
was strongly catalyzed by powdered copper m etal or cupric oxide , and to
a lesser extent by sodium chlorate, lithium o r p o t a s s i u m d i c h r o m a t e . "
"emphasis added]
even more importantly he states on page 215:
F o r e x a m p l e a n u m ber of fires in the drying and packaging equipm e n t o f

the AMMONIUM perchlorate plant of W estern Electrochemical Company
(now Am e r i c a n P o t a s h d c C h e m ical Corporation) were fo u n d t o h a v e
been caused when the perchlorate crystals came into contact with copper
tubing in the vibrating pan-dryer heat exchanger. When stainless steel
was substituted for copper the fires ceased. Am monium perchlorate was
f o u n d t o b e m ost sensitive to ignition at a m oisture con tent of 0 .02 to 0.5
per cent, [ho w dry are your stars?], particularly when it is contam i n a t e d
with copper and possibly in the presence of other metallic contaminants.
This experience confirms othe r reports of the accelerating effect of copper
on the therm al decom position of am m onium perchlorate, and pyridine
perchlorate. [Emphasis added.]
T h e d e v e l o p m ent of cheap electricity d uring the later part of the 19th

century, was followed by the first comm ercial electrolysis of chloride
solutions for the prod uction of sodium chlorate by the French in 1866. As
a result of th is process large amounts of chlora tes becam e a v a i l a b l e a t
reasonable cost. It soon followed that because chlorate mixtures had "at
all times fascinated inventors on account of the large am o u n t o f o x y g e n
stored up in *** chlorate(s), which can be given off so readily," these
c h e a p a n d r e a d a b l y a v a i l a b l e c h l o r a t e s ( s o d i u m , p o t a s s i u m , am m o n i u m )
were soon used for the production of e xplosives. In 1890, electrolysis of
s o d i u m chlorate, lead to the production of pota s s i u m a n d a m m onium
Perchlorates for use in the production of explosives. Although few of these
chlorate/perchlorate based explosives ever found favor in this country,
they were widely used i!1 Europe. Their use having in all cases been
supplanted by the introduction of amm onium n itrate based blasting
agents.
B e c a u s e o f a n increasing num ber of accidents resulting from the u s e o f

chlorate explosives, the US Bureau of Mines pe rform ed "Frictional Impact"
testing of chlorate explosives between Septem ber, 1911 and February 1,
1919. [W hy they took eight years to com plete these tests is not recorded!]
The results were repo rted in: Bureau of Mines; Tech. Pa per 234, 1919.
Investigated was: "A certain potassium chlorate explosive that is used in
the United States and is designated Chlorate Explosive B." [Potassium
chlorate, sug ar, gum a r a b l e ] . T h e m ixture had com e under suspicion
b e c a u s e a n u m b e r o f p r e m a t u r e e x p l o sions had occurred during its use in
bitum inous coal m ine s. Quote d from the report are the following
e x a m ples:
1. "W hile inserting copper needle in a charge *** the charge exploded."
2 . " T h e c h a r g e e x p l o d e d w h i l e t h e c o p p e r n e e d le was being inse rted in
the charge bore hole."
3. "W hile pushing a 12-inch cartridge into bore hole, with copper needle
inserted about 6 inches in it, *** charge exploded."
They felt that: In view of the frequency of these accidents and the
s e e m ing ease with which they took place, not b e i n g e x p l a i n a b l e b y t h e
sensitiveness of the explosive itself to friction, it was considered advisable
to determ ine , i f p o s s i b l e , t h e c a u s e o f t h e e x c e s s i v e s e n s i t i v e n e s s t o
friction.
It was thought, as practically all bitum inous coals contain pyrite, perhaps
the pyrite was the cause of the accidents. [Now time out for a little
m ineralogy -- Pyrite or "Fools Gold" is iron-sulfide (FeS2), it can with tim e
break down to form , iron oxide and sulfur. Its cousin Marcasite also FeS2
decomposes rather easily into ferrous sulfate a nd sulfuric acid!]
To the explosive B mixture was added coal dust (basica lly carbon, and
generally not considered safe with potassium chlorate, by m o s t p y r o s ) a n d
finely ground pyrite. /hen the mixture was stirred with a copper needle it
ignited! Unfo rtunately the pap er does not report any tests performed on
explosive "8" without the added pyrite/coal dust, with a copper wire.
" P e n d u l u m friction" tests, were also pe rform ed, [This test was developed
to replace the then standard "broom stick" test i.e. beat on a sam ple of the
explosive with a broom stick and if it fa ils to detonate, o r crack when tested
repeatedly, it receives a passing grade!] on various chlorate explosives,
ever they failed to repeat the sam e tests with either pyrite and/or coal add-
e d , a n d t h e n compare the results. Despite these shortcom ings it was
concluded that the detonation of the explosive was due to the increase in
"Friction Sensitivity" a s a result of the added pyrite. In light of current
information it would appear th at the re al cause of the premature ignition
m ay have been the copper wire!
Due to shortages of raw m aterials during WW II, large am ounts of

chlorates and Perchlorates were produced. As a result the US Bureau of
Mines felt that at war's end: "Promoters m a y s e e k t o m a r k e t e x p l o s i v e s
containing th ese ingredients, ***" Therefore in Decem ber 1945, they
issued Information Circular #7340; Hazards fro m C h l o r a t e s a n d
Perchlorates in Mixtures with Reducing Materials.
One part of this report is of interest. Due to a fatal accident that occurred
during the m anufactu re of pra ctice land mines. A sam ple of the m aterial
[ingredients not stated, other than the fact that it contained potassium n
perchlorate, possible the military potassium perchlorate, barium nitrate,
alum i n u m f l a s h m ixture.] was tested in a "pressure friction apparatus."
The test: consists essentially of a cylin drical brass plunger that exerts a fixed
pressure and rotates at a fixed speed upon a small weight of the sample
contained in a brass cup. Only m ateria ls exceedingly se nsitive to friction,
such as the initiating explosives, will fire in this test. The mixture ignited
during the te st and was found to have a friction sensitivity slightly less
than that of m ercury fulm i n a t e . [ E m p h a s i s a d d e d . ]
O n c e a g a i n t h e s o u r c e o f i g n i t i o n m a y h a v e b e e n c o p p e r i o n s f r o m the
brass!
Although hard evidence is lacking, it would seem certain that careful pyro s
will avoid using copper dust, in any of their com ps. And will refrain from
using copper/brass screens when processing mixtures containing
chlorates if n ot Perchlorates. In the older literature there can be found
s t a r s m a d e u s i n g c o m b i n a t i o n s o f p o t a s s i u m chlorate, and sulfu r, along
with various copper salts (copper sulfate, etc.) these are not
recom m e n d e d f o r u s e , a s e v e n then they had a bad reputation.
"Mix tures containing Sulphur and a Chlorate, Black oxide of Copper or

Sulp hide of Copper (and probable all Sulphides and Sulphites) with
chlorate should be avoided. Purple fire s which generally contain one of
the above co m p o u n d s o f C o p p e r h a v e a n e s p e c i a l l y b a d n a m e f o r g o i n g
off spontaneously." - C.T. Brock, 1872.
DONMAN January 9th, 2007, 12:45 AM

Very interesting, than k s f o r y o u r r e s e a r c h , a p p e a r s y o u h a v e d o n e s o m e e x t e n s i v e r e s e a r c h o n t h e s u b j e c t . I t s e e m s like a lot
of work to random ly be done. May I ask what p rom pted all this research?
Bert January 9th, 2007, 10:25 AM

It seems like a lot of work to randomly be done. May I ask what prompted all this research?
The research was done by the bureau of m ines as state d in the article.
The person who C OLLECTED the studie s and wrote the article is Donald Haarm a n n . H e i s f a m o u s ( i n f a m ous?!) for his collection
of pyrotechnics related historical materials. A quick check of rec pyrotechnics and PML will show m any articles and po sts
springing from his collection... I've cut and pasted his work here too, on occasion. That wh ole "those who do not learn from
history are doom ed to repeat it" thing is definitely going on in am ateur pyrotechn ics.
Before I knew much about pyro history, I m a d e m y own fused Copper sulfide from salvaged Copper electrical wire and garden
Sulfur heated together to red heat in an Iron crucible, and then m ade chlorate blue and purple stars (prim ed with BP!) with no
accidents. I m a d e l e s s t h a n a p o u n d t o t a l o f s u c h m ixes ever, and usually worked with 10 or 100 gram b a t c h e s . T h e f i n i s h e d
stars were never stored for long, and I was lucky.
O n e o f m y m entors u ses brass screens and brass tooling with chlorate m ixes. He's still do ing fine, with no accidental ignitions
or explosions related to the practice. My screen s are 304 stainless, and my tooling is either stainle ss or T6 Alum inum with
"tuffcote" now, however.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nitration of Elmer's Glue (Polyvinyl Nitrate)
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(C4H6O2) + HNO3----->(C2H3NO3) + C2H4O2
(Elmer's Glue)+(Nitric acid)----->(Polyvinyl Nitrate) + (Acetic acid)
Emer's Glue, and many wood glue's, are mostly composed of Polyvinyl Acetate. This process is in it's infantility and I will carrie it out soon once I make some more Nitric acid. I
will experiment with different wood glues and report back which has the least impurities. Of course I know to neutralize the acid and properly wash the substance but, do you
have any impute on this before I give it a try? I don't believe that there are very many hazards involved but, it's best to get a second opinion on any unseen hazards.
If this does work I am sure it will be much cheaper than Nitrating polyvinyl alcohol, depending on the refining process. :/
nbk2000 January 11th, 2007, 04:32 AM

http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/PVN.html
It may be possible to increase the nitration yield by adding the polyvinyl alcohol to acetic anhydride first and using more nitric acid, the procedure is followed as above.
Adding the alcohol to AcO would make PVA, so you're skipping the need for AcO by using Elmers Glue. :)
FUTI January 11th, 2007, 11:41 AM

I think that Ac2O react with HNO3 giving AcOH and mixed anhydride which then can be used with PVA to get PVN. However you will get some acetylation also and prolonged
treatment with extra nitric acid is maybe needed to get best yields. Good sides of the process is lower temperature used (and needed), bad side is mixing HNO3 with Ac2O
which is tricky...do it the wrong way and we will get MD5 number from your RS-tag in the mailbox ;).
I guess that people choose to use ester for nitration because it activate it sligthly and you won't have to remove water from mixture but AcOH instead which is easy with
NaHCO3 wash-up treatment of the product. Also the glue is cheap and not on list of prohibited substances :).

Donman you don't have to experiment to find out the impurities of the different glues. Search for their MSDS, they will tell you what else is in the glue besides PVA and some
might even tell you the ratios.
I am assuming AcO stands for Acetic anhydride and AcOH stands for Acetic acid?
nbk2000 January 11th, 2007, 04:39 PM

AcO = Acetic Anhydride, just like EtO = Ether (Anhydride of Ethanol (EtOH)
These are typical journal abbreviations.

"MODIFIED POLYVINYL ACETATE EMULSION" is what all of the MSDS say for Elmer's Glue. That's why I was wondering if any of you knew what the modifications where or could
direct me to where I could find its composition.
stupid939 January 12th, 2007, 02:52 PM

It was kind of hard to find, but supposedly Elmer's Glue-All is made of a copolymer off polyvinyl acetate and polyvinyl alcohol. Like NBK said, it would be easier to use just
Elmer's glue for the nitration since it already has some PVA in it.
Here is the site that I found it on:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03232.htm
DONMAN January 12th, 2007, 11:21 PM

Well in that case, Elmer's glue is quite good for the production of PVN. It's cheap, simple, and its not on the watch list as mentioned previously.
Now, I need just to make some Nitric acid. :)
Cindor March 13th, 2007, 10:18 AM

I mixed 40% Nitric Acid with Polyvinil glue and nothing happens, but then, after a lot of stirring I get something like Playdough, then I washed it with water and bicarb. solution
and let it dry.
Now is a solid
In a few days I'll make more PVN and a detonator to see if it works.
Maybe mixed with some AN, or NG, but I don't know yet.
nbk2000 March 13th, 2007, 06:39 PM

40% isn't strong enough to perform a nitration.
You need at least 70%, and sulphuric acid to remove the water of nitration.
ultma March 13th, 2007, 08:04 PM

40% isn't strong enough to perform a nitration.
You need at least 70%, and sulphuric acid to remove the water of nitration.
what about 65%? It works for the nitration of celluose
nbk2000 March 13th, 2007, 10:30 PM

If you have sulphuric acid, you can make nitric acid of the required 98%+ concentration by mixing the dilute nitric with several times its volume of concentrated sulphuric, and
distilling.
You then use that nitric in your reactions.

Cindor March 14th, 2007, 01:03 PM
I didn't want to use stronger NA or SA/NA mix to don't screw up the reaction since you are just changing the functional group of the compound
Anyway I get something, but now I'm not sure if it is PVN, what could it be if it isn't PVN?
FUTI March 14th, 2007, 04:37 PM

I didn't want to use stronger NA or SA/NA mix to don't screw up the reaction since you are just changing the functional group of the compound
Anyway I get something, but now I'm not sure if it is PVN, what could it be if it isn't PVN?
Yes in case of Elmers glue I guess your goal is to do good amount of transesterification (and esterification of free OH group with nitric acid), but doing it in diluted nitric is
pointless since you will hydrolyse the ester and get PVA instead. Mega will Ac2O + NA work in this case?
Enkidu May 25th, 2007, 05:08 AM

I found an article on Polyvinyl Nitrate in Propellants, Explosives and Pyrotechnics. Unfortunately, I only have access starting at Volume 23 and continuing to the current issue.
Coincidentally, I think that many other persons have a subscription similar to mine, as I've seen it on tmp's ftp beginning in '98 (Vol. 23).
BTW, I have access to many of the eJournals (at least from a certain time) and eBooks on Wiley Interscience, as well as many other eJournals on wide range of topics. If you
want a reference, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll see what I can do for you.
So, here's what I want, preferably in PDF. Thanks in advance.
Volume 20, Issue 2, Pages 64 - 69
Investigations on Polyvinyl Nitrate as a High Energetic Material
U. C. Durgapal*, P. K. Dutta, S. C. Mishra, Jyotsna Pant

Institute of Armament Technology, Girinagar, Pune-411025 (India)
*Correspondence to U. C. Durgapal, Institute of Armament Technology, Girinagar, Pune-411025 (India)
Abstract
Polyvinyl nitrate (PVN) is one of the few known polymeric explosives. PVN was prepared by controlled addition of cooled nitric acid to a pre-cooled suspension of polyvinyl
alcohol in acetic anhydride and subsequent processing of the reaction product. Nitrogen content of different PVN samples was in the range 11.76% to 15.71%;, and the
molecular weight about 100000. Several properties of PVN have been investigated and correlated with its degree of nitration. Scanning electron micrographs of PVN fibres show
a porous surface. Abel heat test values at 82C indicate that fibrous PVN has a fairly good degree of stability, which decreases with increase in its % N. Addition of small
amounts (0.25%; by wt.) of DPA, 2NDPA, carbamite and resorcinol into PVN (15.71%; N)improves its heat stability. With increasing %;N, ignition temperature of PVN
decreases and impact as tetryl. With increasing %; N from 11.76%; to 15.71%;, heat of combustion decreases from 3744 cal/g to 3023 cal/g, and heat of explosion increases
from 456 cal/g to 987 cal/g, due to increase in oxygen balance.
Received: 25 August 1993
DONMAN June 20th, 2007, 03:17 AM

I have performed a nitration on .5 g of Elmer's Glue All glue. Right now I am the process of purification of the final product. So far it is looking really good. It has become fiber
like, although at this stage it is still in water.

Propellants, Explosives and Pyrotechnics has finally been published in electronic format from volume 1 issue 1. The catch is you have to subscribe to one of Wiley's overpriced
backfile collections (Material Science Backfile Collection).
I actually did an extensive search to find out which of the handful of US universities actually purchased this particular backfile. I will have to make a weekend out of it
someday, but I will be off to get it. I will not be able to get every article, but I will grab as many synth related articles that I can.
Wiley is a greedy malevolent slime of a company that only cares about lining its already bulging pockets at the expense of letting even one syllable of scientific knowledge slip
from its fingers uncompensated.
Enkidu June 20th, 2007, 08:09 PM

Actually, it's all on the FTP, I just couldn't find it. I've found it now. It's under FTP/organic chemistry/journals/jopep. I briefly glanced over the article and I was a bit
disappointed.
black mamba June 20th, 2007, 08:10 PM

megalomania,
I am a student at one of the universities that subscribe to Wiley's. If you make me a list I could grab some of the pdf files for you. As a forum newbie I would love to help out
in any way that I can.
DONMAN June 24th, 2007, 04:07 AM

Ok so after washing my product I am left with a white plastic that burns a bit slower than nitrocellulose. It puts off one hell of a stink when burned, let me tell you! Makes
acetone peroxide smell like roses. It smells like burning electronics. I don't think this substance is very nitrated I was a bit rushed when I was making the nitration bath. I think
I will retry this experiment again with better execution and more ample time.... Someone else please try this!
anonymous411 June 24th, 2007, 04:50 AM

I actually did an extensive search to find out which of the handful of US universities actually purchased this particular backfile. I will have to make a weekend out of it
someday, but I will be off to get it.
If it's at Columbia or NYU, let me know and I'll pull it for you.

Someone else please try this!
I've been working on PVN for a couple months now. Someday (hopefully) it will be a member publication here. You'll have to wait 'til I get finished for more details. ;)
@anonymous: You can check for yourself to see what your library has. For instance, go to your university library's home page and search Propellants, Explosives, and
Pyrotechnics or The Chemistry of Phenols and see what you come up with.

It appears Columbia may have it. If you go to CLIO, the Columbia Library online catalog and search for the journal propellants, explosives, pyrotechnics and open the listing for
it there are two links for the electronic edition. The first link is for the 1998 to present, which just about every uni has, but the second link is for the backfile collection, 1976 to
1997. Clicking that brings me to a Columbia proxy login, so I can't further. If you are at Columbia you should be able to connect directly since access to Wiley's backfiles
requires proper IP address authentication.
If you can get to the Wiley page, anonymous411, see if you can open any of the PDF files. IMPORTANT: OPENED FILES MUST BE 1997 OR EARLIER! Only articles from 1976 to
1997 are the ones no one can get. We already have all of the 1998 to present articles because these are commonly available from Wiley. The 1976-1997 articles are a
separate subscription package that few universities have.
Just because there is a link does not mean Columbia has a subscription. I always get a link to RSC journals from my uni, but we do not have a subscription, so I can't get em.
Only by opening an actual PDF file of an article can you determine if you have proper access, and only an article older than 1997.
Go to CLIO:
http://clio.cul.columbia.edu/webvoy.htm
Do a search for "propellants" with the default settings.
Click the link titled "Propellants, explosives, pyrotechnics [electronic resource]."
Open the link titled "Full text available from Wiley InterScience Backfiles 1976 to 1997"
From there tell us what you see. You should go to the wiley website, specifically the index for volume 6 1997 of Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics. Somewhere on the page
there should be a link to a pdf version of the articles. I can't tell you where to go on the Wiley page because only authenticated users get to see the real version, and I ain't
one o' dem :(

Will do! I don't have remote access, but can make the trip tomorrow. Any other requests for while I'm there are most welcome.
Edit: didn't make it today, try again tomorrow!
Enkidu June 25th, 2007, 02:06 AM

The Second Edition of Chemical Warfare Agents would be most welcome. The Duke put me on to this book.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/bookhome/114205277?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
The_Duke June 26th, 2007, 03:39 PM

This thread is wanderin' way off topic...
I have gathered most of the JoPEP journals including the three issues released thus far this year. I am only missing those released 1980 through 1984, issue 6 of volume 4
(1979) and issue 4 of volume 18 (1993). If someone could get the previously mentioned issues the collection would be complete.:)
anonymous411 June 26th, 2007, 06:27 PM

Megalomania: uploading files; see PM.

I just opened my control panel and found this gem in my reputation:
"Upload the files for the community, not just to Mega. secrets make me nervous and make me give negative rep."
Who said this to me? Speak to my face. There is no "secret"; I have zero problem putting these files where everyone can get to them. When I PMed Megalomania, that's what
I assumed I was doing, since--rightly or wrongly--I assumed he was going to post them to an FTP or in a public area.
Yesterday, I had a VERY limited amount of time to get these files on the net, and as such uploaded them to a snapdrive account, which has no "public share" option. I mailed
him the account name and password because I felt certain he wasn't going to delete them (unlike many people reading this right now). Once I get confirmation he received
them, I'll be glad to open the account up to everyone who wants them. Anyone can feel free to point me to his FTP or shared public account and I'll be glad to upload them
myself.
Obviously, in the future I'll find a better solution than snapdrive, but the situation is what it is. 39 subscription journal articles is the tip of the iceberg compared with what I'm
prepared to upload for this group, so if you want to ban or somehow punish me for mishandling this, it's your call.

Whoever gave you that neg rep is a cocksucker. Only faggots get nervous and emotional. It doesn't tell you who gave it? It tells me who gives positive rep. I certainly doubt it
was a mod. The moment you post the files for public use I'll rep you.
If I were you, I'd ask tmp for access to the FTP. I'm sure he'd give it.
What files did you find?

Thanks. Megalomania emailed me a list of links to articles he was interested in the subscription journal "Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics" and I pulled 39 PDFs for him.
Since it was a list of links and I don't have access to the login from this machine, it's a little time-consuming to download each PDF and copy each title by hand, but here's a
sample title, FYI:
Tris-X(1), A New High Energy Polynitramine Explosive: Synthesis

using Dinitrogen Pentoxide (N205) Technology(2), Characterization,
and Thermal Stability and Hazard Assessment
Interesting stuff--and very worth reading. Give me the definitive place to put it and it's all yours.

Thank you very much, I downloaded them yesterday. I should like to mention I frequently request members make content available to me and the staff first so we can best
get it out to the people before it gets banned, like with rapidshare links getting pulled. And who is to say what I may or may not be getting is even worth distributing to the
group? I get a lot of boring stuff for other research.

You're welcome! I just finished uploading them to the FTP, along with an assortment of other PDFs the group might find interesting.
Enkidu July 5th, 2007, 10:08 PM

Haha, I also found this gem in my reputation today:
Cocksucker you say? Faggots you say? Shame, I was actually starting to like you too. Keep up the good work, but in the future it's be wise to mind your own.
Someone needs to get their twitchy finger off the rep button. It's a shame that a looser like that can erase seven rep points.
I guess some people will remain emotional and irrational. And hidden. :rolleyes:
megalomania July 6th, 2007, 05:20 PM

Only someone with considerable reputation power could remove several reputation points, that's how the system works. Consider now what you might next say with the
knowledge that those with power have you in your sights...
Reputation comments are private for a reason, and they are not within the discussion scope of this thread.
nbk2000 July 7th, 2007, 09:04 AM

Believe me, many's the time I wish I knew who the fuckers were that gave me crap via reputation, but VBulletin made it so you can't find out who did so, even as an admin.
:mad:
I'm sure you could apply some math to figure out what rep level would be necessary to account for your lost rep points, then narrow it down from there.
anonymous411 July 7th, 2007, 10:08 PM

I'm sure you could apply some math to figure out what rep level would be necessary to account for your lost rep points, then narrow it down from there.
I guess I can UTFSE and piece it out. It's hard to believe the system is set up so anyone can knock off nine points on a whim.
The facts are 1) there was no "secret", and 2) everyone is free to enjoy the 39 subscription journal articles Megalomania requested and the other 24 books I uploaded to the
FTP. I literally did nothing wrong. Whomever you are, you might want to reconsider whether or not penalizing the reputation of a legitimate contributor is warranted, or indeed
makes any sense at all.
I know if I had sabotaged someone's reputation in error, I'd be enough of a man of honor to make it right by flagging them an equivalent amount of positive credit in return.
What goes around comes around. I trust you'll be reasonable, think it through, and do the right thing.
nbk2000 July 8th, 2007, 04:59 AM

A person can only give you rep once, good or bad. So even if they had a change of heart, it's too late to do anything about it.

I think after a recent software upgrade they changed the feature so you can give rep again after a certain period of time has elapsed...
OK, see my new post on reputation on The Forum: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=92422
DONMAN July 10th, 2007, 04:47 AM

Hey.... this thread has become just a little off-topic, I mean the last 8 posts aren't even related to explosives or chemistry.
I really want to know if any one has got higher levers of nitration that me.
Enkidu July 10th, 2007, 05:02 AM

I've been working on PVN for a couple months now. Someday (hopefully) it will be a member publication here. You'll have to wait 'til I get finished for more details.
I'd imagine it's just you and me. Don't hold your breath for me to finish: I haven't worked on it again since that post. It will probably take me months and months to finish a
fairly comprehensive PVN document, especially with all the interruptions I entertain. (I am actually dreaming of the preparations, rather than just compiling them.)
If I decide not to finish, you have first dibs on my files and notes, provided you want them. Don't hold your breath for that to happen either.
DONMAN July 12th, 2007, 04:10 AM

So do you have any helpful info right now? Or is it still in its infancy?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Nitration of Hydroq u i n o n e
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View Full Version : Nitration of Hydroquinone
A.Scriabin January 12th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 5 : 3 5 P M

I've obtained 100g of hidroquinone (para-idroxyphenol), and I'm curious about the products of a possible nitration, and the
properties of the com pounds. Because the starting material has 2 activating groups, the n itration shouldn't be difficult...did
s o m eone tried this experience?in the licterature I never seen a "trinitro-idroxyphenol " etc..:eek:
Chris The Great January 12th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 8 : 2 6 P M

Most likely scenario is that the nitric acid oxidizes the hydroquinone and starts a runaway reaction. The stuff is very easily
o x i d i z e d a n d t h e q u i n o n e d o e sn't look like som ething that would survive in a nitrating acid mixture.
If it did not oxidize, then you'd probably get the dinitro com pound, 2,5-dinitro-1,4-dihydroxybenzene.
FUTI January 13th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 2 : 3 8 P M

A.Scriabin you had started a g ood subject. I like chemistry of quinones which is in separable from h ydroquin ones. Product of
nitration of q uinone (IIRC) is 2,5-dinitro-3-hydroxy-1,4-benzoquinone (yes it inserts extra hydroxy group don't ask me how),
but I could be wrong (anyway it should depend on conditions and reagents used for nitration). That product is naturally
e x p l o s i v e l i k e m a n y n i t r a t e d c o m p o u n d i s . I f y o u c a n f i n d a b o o k b y S a u l Patai "Chem istry of Quinonoid co m p o u n d s " y o u c a n
find an full answer there (m y info is from Houben-W e y l " M e t h o d e n d e r O r g a n i s c h e n C h e m ie" I think). And if you find Patai's
book grab it and please scan it. I look for it m ore then I rem e m ber. W e could both benefit from that book - you wo uld find a
conditions for non-runaway-nitration of hydroquinone, and I would find a long lost treasure I'm seeking.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Sensible Sythesis, or dangerous dud?
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View Full Version : Sensible Sythesis, or dangerous dud?
sbovisjb1 February 3rd, 2007, 04:46 PM

I was cruising bombshock and I cam e across this topic. http://bom b s h o c k . c o m / f o rum s/viewtopic.php?t=1339. It states that
y o u c a n m a k e a plastic explosive from bleach. My first reaction was that of horror. C ould anyone tell m e if this would be safe or
dangerous to do?
nbk2000 February 3rd, 2007, 05:37 PM

Technically, you can make a 'plastique ' from bleach by using that as a percursor to m a k e a c h l o r a t e s a l t ( s o d i u m o r
p o t a s s i u m ) a s a n o x i d i z e r , a n d m ixing that in with a fuel like vaseline, which m akes it into a m oldable putty.
This is a very low power explosive, with a DV of about 3,000M/s or so.
Oh, and your failure to UTFSE to see all the previous discussion on this thread earns you a short ban. That, and me ntioning
anything from Bom bShit.
An easy two word search (chlorate AND vaseline ) brough t up 38 threads, with 10 o f them h aving ob viously relevant titles.
:rolleyes:

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Hexanitroethane
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View Full Version : Hexanitroethane
plutobound March 23rd, 2007, 10:24 AM

Ive lurked as an unregistered user for awhile and hoping that Im providing enough new information to make this post acceptable, even though it commits the double
newbie faux pas of both asking a question and starting a new thread not in the watercooler.
Ive searched the forum and found no reference to Hexanitroethane (HNE). It is reported to be a relatively stable solid with a fairly high melting point (~150C) as
compared to Tetranitromethanes (TeNM) 13.8C and a much lower vapor pressure. HNE has as much oxygen (O2) available for combustion as TeNM (~25 mole/liter
when oxygen balanced to CO2 as compared to ~36 mole/liter for LOX).
I have found the following synthesis route to make it.
The Bromopicrin (tribromonitromethane) synthesis is from European Patent # WO2007023496, 03/01/2007, Oren, Golan, and Frim
The Dipotassium salt of Tetranitroethane (DKTeNEt) and the HNE syntheses are from the Encyclopedia of Explosives, 1974, Picatinny Arsenal and also referenced in
Nitrocarbons, 1995, Nielsen. HNE data also from Physical and Chemical Properties of Hexanitroethane, AIAA Journal Feb. 1963, Nobel, et al.
Searches on SciFinder found no better synthesis routes.
My questions are:
a) does anyone have experience with any of these syntheses;
b) see any trouble spots
c) know of a better route
Thanks
Synthesis of Bromopicrin
Reactants: Nitromethane, Bromine, Sodium Hydroxide
Add 61g CH3NO2 (NM) to 100g water
Add 160g Br2 (~3:1 molar ratio with NM)
With continuous stirring, heat mixture to 35-40C
Slowly (~100g/hr) add 34% aqueous solution of NaOH until brown color disappears
Will take ~0.75g NaOH solution per gram of Br2
Important to keep stirring to not allow localized alkaline concentrations to build up causing side reactions
Continue stirring for 30 minutes and allow mixture to cool to room temperature
Allow organic and aqueous layers to separate. Organic layer will be almost pure Br3CNO2 with a yield >95%
CH3NO2 + Br2 to Br3CNO2
CAS# 464-10-8
MP: 10C
BP: 90C
SG: 2.79
Solubility: Water: 1.5g/l @20C
Synthesis of Dipotassium salt of 1,1,2,3-tetranitroethane (DKTeNEt)

Reactants: Bromopicrin, Potassium cyanide, potassium nitrite
50g Bromopicrin in 25ml MeOH
Add 25g finely powdered KNC
Add solution consisting of 12.5g KNO2 in 40ml water
Keep below 30C
Filter precipitate (DKTeNEt)
Dissolve crystals in slightly alkaline water and recrystallize
Dry at 80-90 Yield is ~35%
WARNING: dry material is an initiating explosive and extremely friction and impact sensitive.
2 Br3CNO2 + KCN to Br2(NO2)CC(NO2)Br2 + BrCN + KBr

Br2(NO2)CC(NO2)Br2 + 2 KNO2 to Br(NO2)2CC(NO2)2Br + 2 KBr
Yellow crystalline solid

MP: 293C (decomposes)
Impact Sensitivity H50: 8cm (2kg wt)
Synthesis of Hexanitroethane (HNE)

Reactants: DKTeNEt, Nitrating acid mixture
WARNING: impurities will cause material to explode on contact with concentrated sulfuric acid.
Dissolve 10g dry DKTeNEt in 50ml concentrated H2SO4 with constant stirring
Cool to 5C
Slowly add mixed concentrated H2SO4 and HNO3 (15ml each) with constant stirring and cooling
Slow raise temperature of mixture to 60-70.
Hold for 10 minutes
Cool in ice bath and drown in a large volume of ice water
Filter by suction and rinse with cold water
Dry with air
Dissolve in ether
Add CaCO2 and shake (neutralizes acid)
Filter and evaporate ether under vacuum
Br(NO2)2CC(NO2)2Br + 2 KCN to K(NO2)2CC(NO2)2K + 2 BrCN

K(NO2)2CC(NO2)2K to (NO2)2CHCH(NO2)2
(NO2)2CHCH(NO2)2 to (NO2)3CC(NO2)3
Colorless crystalline solid

MP: ~150C (decomposes)
Vapor Pressure: 0.5mm @ 25C
Density (compressed pellet): 1.88g/cm3 at 25C
Detonation Velocity: 4950m/s
Impact Sensitivity H50: 77cm (2kg wt)
Toxicity: High toxicity for repeated exposure to 3.0ppm
CD-ROM-LAUFWERK April 29th, 2007, 08:16 AM

As mentioned in ''Die Chemie der Kapfstoffe'':
2 CBr3NO2 + 6KI + 2KNO2 --> C2K2(NO2)4 + 6KBr + 3 I2
so there is no need to use KCN or another CN(-) salt although its cheaper, easier to obtain and not kinda ''super poisonous'' ;)
PS: Synthesis of Dipotassium salt of 1,1,2,3-tetranitroethane (DKTeNEt)

there are no 3 carbons in ethane :p
plutobound May 1st, 2007, 04:55 PM

CD-ROM-LAUFWERK: Sorry, 1,1,2,3 was a typographic mistake.
Hunter discusses using four different methods to obtain DKTeNEt. From Table II*, all methods started with 25g Bromompicrin:
KOH yielded 18g of crude product and 0.5g of pure salt

KI was 8.2g crude and 1.5g pure
KOet was 33g crude and 0.8g pure
KCN was 9.5g crude and 1.7g pure
(*Preparation and Reactions of Bromopicrin, Louis Hunter, Journal of the Chemical Society, Transactions, 1923, 543-549 I can send a pdf copy to anyone who would
like it)
I choose the KCN method as yielding maximum product, given the difficulty of the process. As it turns out, the KI method was easier
Further information:
The brompicrin synth was easy, followed exactly as outlined on the patent and yielded expected quantities.
The synthesis of DKTeNEt was much more problematic. The KCN addition created no issues, but the addition of the KNO2 aqueous solution generated significant quantities of
heat. The only way to keep the temperature down (even in an ice-salt bath) was an addition rate of about 3 drops per minute. Temperature excursions favored side reactions
and reduced the already minimal yield.
Eventually went to the KI method as it was less temperature sensitive.
Crude product from either route was messy and it was difficult to balance the quantity of water needed to dissolve the crude product and still crystallize out the pure salt. It
took several attempts to get usable quantities of the pure salt. (These are photos of the crude).
Nitrating the DKTeNET with mixed acids was again straight forward.
The final Hexanitroethane was mixed in close-to stoiciometric ratios with nitromethane (8.8g HNE + 10.0g NM / OB~-1%) and ignited with a pyrotechnic initiator. The results
were impressive.
The combustion chamber was machined from stainless steel with 10mm thick walls.
Needless to say, this is a sensitive mixture.
Work continues
The_Duke May 2nd, 2007, 05:58 AM

When trying to view the attached files I get an error message reading "The image cannot be displayed, because it contains errors."
nbk2000 May 2nd, 2007, 02:34 PM

I got the same.
Plutobound, upload the pictures as a ZIP or RAR file to rapidshare and post the link here so we can see what you're talking about.
plutobound May 2nd, 2007, 10:41 PM

Sorry about that
http://rapidshare.com/files/29180182/Synth_photos.zip.html
Sworn October 17th, 2007, 07:35 AM

Excuse me plutobound, "The Bromopicrin (tribromonitromethane) synthesis" ?
Bromopicrin seems a stuff something like an aromatic ester. BrC6H2(NO2)3.

I wan`t noting to say to this, every child what have somewhat knowledge in easy chemistry knows what give HBr and Benzene ? I think the result is Bromrobenzene, BrC6H5.
Br2 and C6H6 should give Br3CH3 in a major concentration when it stirred on the boiling point of the benzene in an flask which is sealed easy with a glass wool stopper. I
would mean you can make with a waste of bromine a slight access of C6Br6, C6HBr5 and CH26Br4 which you can separate by bp distillation when you have a pressure reflux
quipment. The same things can you get when you handle the bromoethane with a waste of bromine. The major result should be 1,1,2,2-tetrabromoethane.
I have looked to found some boiling point of the bromo benzenes and ethanes to separate it by distillation.
bromrobenzene, boiling point around 156 degrees celsius

1,2 dibromobenzene, boiling point around 224 degrees celsius
1,3 dibromobenzene, boiling point around 188 - 219 degrees celsius
1,4 dibromobenzene, boiling point around 219 - 220 degrees celsius
1,2,4-tribromobenzne, boiling point - explosive or above 299 degrees celsius
1,3,5-tribromobenzne, boiling point around 271 degrees celsius
bromoethane, boiling point around 37 - 39 degrees celsius

1,2-dibromoethane, boiling point around 244 degrees celsius
1,1,2,2-tetrabromoethane, boiling point around 244 degrees celsius
The shitty databases gives nothing more to the boiling points of the in my opinion useful bromines.
A useful process is maybe when you 0,1 mol of bromoethane and 0,1 mol of the theoretical amount of HBr is refluxed above 244 degrees celsius some hours to 1,2-
dibromoethane. The result is maked pure by disstillation and the distillate is than dropped in a chilled nitrating mixture of 0,8 mol triflouro actic acid anhydride and 0,4 mol of
fresh distilled < 98 % HNO3 in a flask. Wehn you don`t hane TFAA, fresh concentrated H2SO4 and HNO3 should work too but the separation is more than crappy.
Next the flask is sealed with a glass wool stopper, the mix is stirred for one day at 39 to 40 degrees celsius and the remainders of TFAA and HNO3 are removed very careful by
evaporation on a hotplate. The formed crystalls of 1,2-dibromo-1,1-2-2-tetranitroethane are careful collected and dissolved in 100 ml of fresh distilled EtOH and dryed
ammonia is bubbled through the mix until the wight is increased the molar ratio to 1,2-diamino-1,1,2,2-tetranitroethane. It should work when you add more than 0,2 mol of 28
- 35 % ammonium hydroxide solution to the dissolved crystals and the solution is than stirred for four or five hours. The solution is than slowly concentrated on a stirrer by low
heat to collect the crystals of 1,2-diamino-1,1-2-2-tetranitroethane.
I mean more than a probelm is the following fabrication of the hexanitroethane and not everybody have a lab equipment to prepare high nitrated stuff in a home lab.
Synthesis 1:
I think it`s esay to transfer the stuff into hexanitroethane when the collcted material is dissolved in a waste of concentrated HNO3 < 98%, collected crystals per 0,5 mol of acid
and the mixture is stirred for 1 week or more at room temperature. The crystals of HNE are now collected when the remainders of the dilute HNO3 vaporaized very careful on a
hotplate.
In my opinion a useful solvent to make the stuff pure is anhydrous EtOH. Maybe the crystals can be slowly dryed over anhydrous magnesium sulfate when somewhat wet.
Synthesis 2:
Dissolve the stuff of the collected crystals is a mixture of triflouro actic acid anhydride and HNO3 in a ratio 1:3:8 and stir the stuff for a week at room temperature rapidly. The
crystals are colected by Synthesis 1. I mean a replacement to TFAA is TCAA - trichloro acetic acid anhydride when you have.
Synthesis 3:
The last way to make HNE is surely when the 1,2-dibromo-1,1-2-2-tetranitroethane is dissoveld in
concentrated H2SO4, < 98 % HNO3 is tropped in the mix, the mix is stirred for an hour and the material is then quickly extracted by several portion of methylene chloride.
Sweeper April 30th, 2008, 07:37 PM

I`ve thinking around by browsing the new papers of megas sites and every day i think, the ideas to get soemething are removing somewhat from me. Something is concocted
in my simple mind !
My opinions are:
A simple stuff by preparing f.i. dnm or 1,1-dne --1 or 2 ne-(CH2)2 by
adding it to bleach:
results:
TNE(1,1,2,2) or TNP(1,1,3,3), results by (NO2)2=C-CH2 on waiting (1,1=C-C=3,3)TNEthen?
Why not HNE ? I`m to tired to think around with good stuff. :mad:
Always, the same pot- ? I mean 1,1,1-tne and tnm when traeted with bleach but gives hexanitroethane ! :eek:
Syth :??
Dissolve 1 g of 1,1,1-tne in 30 mL of MeOH (more than 5 mL of CH2CH2 ?)
By weight, add this to a warm solution of 2 g of tnm in 50 mL of MeOH and 1,5 g of NaOH.
Little precipitation of HNE should be filtered out by stirring it in on summer

day in an icy beaker of ice water..
How prepared 1,1,1-tne ? Questions like TNEtOH in megas pages, years ago to ?
It`s only a little upstairs to haven !
The main background of my oppinions are some stuff like this:

(CH3)NO2)C-C(NO2)(CH3) and so on !
Thinking like MeOH an PPTabs and more ?
megalomania May 3rd, 2008, 03:22 PM

What in gods name are you blathering about and does your doctor know you are off your meds? You are either using a bad machine machine translation, or you are retarded.
Either way you are banned for being a danger to yourself and others.
Do not pay attention to this blather, the lack of coherent sentences makes it dangerous. Who knows what chemicals he is really talking about.
I am lord of the Syth?? :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Styphnate as prim er to Picric Acid
(Questions)
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View Full Version : Lead Styphnate as primer to Picric Acid (Questions)
peppovsky April 11th, 2007, 07:24 PM

Hello. I'm new here, and the only reason I haven't posted this in the water cooler is... well, it is closed for now :-P
I have recently successfully synthesized some Styphnic Acid, has access to MgO a n d P b ( N O 3 ) 2 , a n d I ' m planning on m a k i n g
Lead Styphnate. I'm a l s o p l a n n i n g t o s y n t h e s i z e s o m e Picric acid, since it should be relatively easier to make then Styphnic
Acid. I have som e experience in the area of pyrotechnics - so long distance electric ignition is not a problem, except m a y b e f o r
the fact that it is for igniting pyro m ixe s, and I'm not sure if it would detonate Lead Styphnate by itself (Although the
temperature itself is m ore the n e n o u g h ) .
So here are m y q u e s t i o n s :
My plan is as following: press 4-5 gr. of Picric Acid to a 1 cm d i a m eter tube, then on top of it press (carefully, of cou rse ;-) ) 7-
10 gr. of Lea d Styphnate. Insert a pyrotechnic electric igniter to the LS area (one that burns quickly at over 400 degrees
centigrade), and seal the cap.
Do you think that will detonate the Picric acid? W ill it at least detonate the Lead Styphnate ? Should I use larger am ounts of
prim er Styphnate? Sh ould I let the igniter ignite a flash mix that will, hopefully, ignite the LS? ...or am I looking at it all the
wrong way, and I should use static electricity to ignite th e LS in the first p lace?
nbk2000 April 12th, 2007, 12:32 AM

Q u e s t i n s a b o u t p r i m ary explosives, like LS, don't go in the HE section, but here.
Second, use proper sm iley codes.
Regarding th e question, you'd be using way too much LS!
100 milligrams of LS to 2 grams of PA would be m o r e t h a n a d e q u a t e , a s s u m ing proper pressing and crystal size of the
m aterials. All of which you can find by UTFSE. ;)
Bluebanshee April 12th, 2007, 02:18 PM

I think that with a 1 cm d i a m eter tube you m ay well be getting a bit close to (or below) the critical diameter for picric acid in
which case it will not detonate unless it is seriously over driven, I dont't k now the critical diam eter offhand but could probably
look it up...
why not try to make a bit m ore picric acid and less lead styphnate. then you can use a larger diameter charge, I agree that the
quantity of the primary should be grea tly reduced from your orig inal idea of 7-10 gram s, generally its best to use as little
prim ary as possible, m aybe go for half a gram or so in order to ensure you give the picric acid a big enough kick.
I think the lead styphnate will detonate fine fro m the igniter.
one other concern is that you need som e way to tell for definite that your m ateria l did detonate. ju st hearing a bang isnt
enough as that could be just due to the prim ary or it m ight be caused by a fast burn of the picric a cid leading to pressure burst
of your tube. A reliable way to tell whether or not you get true detonation is to place a witness plate in direct contact with you r
m ain charge. this would norm a l l y b e a b l o c k o f m e t a l s u c h a s s t e e l , a l u m inium or copper, but pretty m uch any tough solid
m aterial will do. If your charge detonates, you will get a dent in the witne s s p l a t e .
Good luck
peppovsky April 13th, 2007, 08:13 AM

First of all, I apologize for putting the thread in the wrong forums, m y m i s t a k e , w o n ' t h a p p e n a g a i n . S e c o n d , I f o u n d
contradicted info while searching this subject, for exam ple one source stated that LS is a "poor primer" and the other said it's
the prim er m ost com m only used today, and so on. So I came to the forums with a specific question ;) (Thanks for the info and
answers, btw)
About the charge itself - I will use m uch less primary, as you advised me , and will try to find a larger then 1 cm d i a m e t e r t u b e
for that (shouldn't be a problem). Should I use Copper or Alum inum t u b e ? m a y b e s o m e t h i n g e l s e i s p r e f e r r e d ? A n d t h e l a s t
question for now - I thought o f closing the ends of the tube with epoxy cure (e.g. P.S.I.'s "repair quick"). Is it generally OK, or
d o y o u a d v i s e o n u s i n g s o m ething else, like real m e t a l c a p s c r e w e d o n t h e t u b e f o r e x a m p l e ?
hereno April 13th, 2007, 02:25 PM

It IS a piss poor initiator, while it also IS the most com m o n , t h e r e s a r e a son its m i x e d w i t h l e a d a z i d e i n d e t o n a t o r s . L e a d
styphnate provides the flam e sensitivity and lead azide the initiating strength.
L e a d s t y p h n a t e i s c o m m only also used in prim i n g c o m p ositions for firearm cartrid ges, thus it is a good "prim er" in that sense,
but certainly not in the initiating a high explosive sense.
Use the 10g detonator, you'll need it :P

As h e r e n o s a y s , L S d o e s h a v e very low initiating power. Regarding the tube size, you don't need 10 mm ID. The critical
diam eter of picric acid in a ste e l s l e e v e i s 4 m m , so 6-8 m m i s e a s i l y e n o u g h ( I ' v e u s e d 5 m m ID thin brass tubing with no
p r o b l e m s ). If you wo uld like to use a m etallic tube, you must use the detonator within a few days after preparing it, otherwise
you risk the form ation of sensitive picrates. These may be able to set off the cap prematurely. If I were you, I would use a
plastic tube instead ( although it would need to be sligh tly larger; 10 mm ID would be plenty ).
As for the primer, I think you should go to the trouble of preparing som ething better than LS or the peroxides. If you can buy
or synthesize an ionic nitrite such as sodium nitrite, you can m ake a lot of excellent initiators.
I will use a PVC t u b e t h e n . T o d a y I m a d e s o m e 30-40 gr of Picric Acid, hopefully of high quality (will know in a couple of days
when I purify it...). After som e s e a r c h a n d r e a d i n g I t h o u g h t o f m a k i n g D D N P a s p r i m er - since I (hope to) have TNP, and
getting the o ther ingredients is too easy (H2SO 4, NaOH, KNO3, Sulfur). Do you th ink DDNP will m a k e f o r a g o o d e n o u g h
initiator of TNP?
Charles Owlen Picket April 17th, 2007, 11:41 AM

In a gross (personal) description of the explosive properties of their heavy metal salts (styphnic and picric), they put out m ore
" f l a m e t h a n p o p " . T e s t i n g ( C OPAE) with PETN showed th at in addition to at least one gram of LS th e issues included were LACK
of com pression of the LS in th e cap. Additionally there may be a difference between normal and basic nitrated phen o l m e t a l
salts in their capacity to initiate (again PATR2700).
Note that the testing was done with PETN which is a heck of a lot easier to initiate than nitrated phenols. Ho wever this does not
m ean that LS is witho ut merit.
If one were to initiate picric acid with these salts the com m ents were directed at the efficiency of the primary as prepared within
a " s t a n d a r d c o m m ercial constructed cap" (as sighted in the above). It C OULD work but the purpose of lead styphnate is to
flam e or ELECTRICALLY sensitize a classic primary like silver or lead azide.
Lead styphnate is quite valuable IMO for the production of bridgeless ignitors since it has inherent ELEC TRICAL RESISTANCE.
Coupled with graphite and a carrier agent like barium nitrate (or sim ilar), you could m a k e s o m e v e r y e f f e c t i v e b r i d g e l e s s
ignitors with it.
nbk2000 April 17th, 2007, 04:44 PM

LS a l s o h a s t h e a d v a n t a g e o f b e i n g a v a i l a b l e i n t h e O T C f o r m of firearm primers, if you live in a country where you can get
such things.
W ashed out with solvent and allowed to dry, it's ready for pressing.

I prefer synthesizing m y own explosives - I'm just that nerdy science boy, and that's where my interest in those stuff come
from ;)
rangegal August 24th, 2007, 11:30 PM

I rem e m b e r r e a d i n g s o m ewhere that firearm prim ers have sand or ground glass in them for friction? And if so wouldn't that
m a k e p r e s s i n g t h e L S d a n g e r o u s ? O r would the sand just stay in the prim er when the LS is dissolved?
I'm g e t t i n g s o m e m u z z l e l o a d e r p r i m e rs soon, I wonder if those would contain LS like rifle prim ers?
chemdude1999 August 26th, 2007, 02:39 AM

I'm g e t t i n g s o m e m u z z l e l o a d e r p r i m e rs soon, I wonder if those would contain LS like rifle prim ers?
Late ly, it is fashionab le for m anufacturers to use shotgun prim e r s a s m u z z l e - l o a d e r p r i m e rs. They sim ply repackage them a n d
up the price.
Also, primers DO have ground glass as a frictionator. And, yes, this would make pressing m ore dangerous, especially with th e
added sensitizers (i.e., tetracene). Solvent m ay rem ove the sensitizers.
Use care when grinding/pressing and only do sm all am ounts.
As a side note, mass production of prim ers uses styphn ic acid and lead oxide (plus other goodies) and creates the prim ers in
situ. Not sure if this h a s b e e n m e n t i o n e d .

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Choppy April 25th, 2007, 07:46 PM

Okay, so I've been mauling over to post here for a while now about this, so I am going to. I have done quite a fair bit of
research on this, and a few attempts, and even asked a very familiar chemistry teacher I know, and even he couldn't give me
an answer, so, let's see.
By using sodium nitrate, with 98% conc sulphuric acid it gives nitric acid and sodium sulphate.
2NaNO3 + H2SO4 ----> Na2SO4 + 2HNO3
Right, so, its a 2:1 ratio of Nitrate to sulphuric. Now for the maths.
If I use, say, 50grams of Sodium nitrate. Change that into moles,

50/NaNO3.... 50/85 = 0.588 moles.
2:1, so 0.588/2 = 0.279 of Sulphuric acid, now to change into mass..
0.279 x H2SO4....0.279 x 98 = 27.34 grams of sulphuric.. which, using 1.84gcm-3 as density, 27.34/1.84 = 14cm3 of
sulphuric acid.
I've tried this. And it fails, it turns into a very thick gunge, which is very hard to submerge the cotton in for the nitration stage.
I dont understand quite why that is. Anyway, I stumbled across this statement on http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/
nitrocellulose.htm and this guy states
An alternate nitrating mix is made by adding 1gram of finely powdered Potassium or Sodium Nitrate (KNO3/NaNo3) for every
3.325g (3.819ml) of cold concentrated Sulphuric Acid (H2SO4),
So, how is this correct. I dont understand, because surely if I am using the correct molar amounts in relation to one another,
then it will create the 2 moles of HNO3 that I want.
Clarification would be highly appreciated.

...So now you meet the point where science becomes interesting - theory is good and beautiful and all, but real world acts a
little different (something to do with Murphy :rolleyes: ) - working in the laboratory (or @ your home) is NEVER a perfect
condition, and things will ALWAYS go different then what you plan in mind. The amount of difference depends, surprisingly
enough, on your experience and skills. Practice more - get better results! ;)
Now for your specific query - Did you add the NaNO3 slowly, or all at once? Throwing KNO3/NaNo3 to H2SO4 quickly results in,
as much as I remember, slime. Try adding the NaNO3 really slow - over 30 mins or so with this amount (50g).
For the record, you haven't reported of any NO2 gas fuming out, so maybe I'm mistaken. That, of course, doesn't mean
anything for what I've said in the first paragraph.
The_Duke April 26th, 2007, 01:52 AM

NaNO3 + H2SO4 = HNO3 + NaHSO4 :rolleyes:
Rbick April 26th, 2007, 07:47 AM

Choppy, I had the same problems with making Nitrocellulose using the KNO3 nitrating method. I found that it is in fact from
adding the KNO3 too quickly that the nitrating mixture becomes a thick paste. As peppovsky said, add it slowly, and make
sure the temp does not raise above 40 degrees C.
The ratio you stated is approx. the amount I use, and it results in some pretty good quality NC. Of course you could get better
quality if you get some HNO3 :rolleyes: Good luck.
Choppy April 26th, 2007, 10:47 AM

Ahh excellent, thanks for that Peppovsky and Rbick. Okay. I'll add it in very slowly then, taking a good 30 minutes for just
that stage, or even longer depending on the situation.
I did some of the calculations for the equation that the duke stated.
NaNO3 + H2SO4 ---> HNO3 + NaHSO4
Which turns out, if I use 50grams of NaNO3, then i'll need to use 57.64 grams of sulphuric (31cm3 of sulphuric acid).
(Calculations done same way as above)
I'm going to try both the equations, doing the 50g:57g, and the 50g:27g . I am following the way that it equation states, not
doing the 1 (nitrate) : 3 (sulphuric) as that website stated, because I can't see the sudden change between 2:1 or 1:1
suddenly to 1:3 !!
I've had a few runaways, but that was only when not using a water bath when adding the cotton in, I've had a few successful
batch, but I truely wish to have the best stuff, absolutly no residue and a complete combustion of the product.

Good luck.
In the future, avoid not using an ice bath - homemade explosives synth is too damn dangerous as it is ;)
ponder April 30th, 2007, 06:41 PM

"Which turns out, if I use 50grams of NaNO3, then I'll need to use 57.64 grams of sulphuric (31cm3 of sulphuric acid).
(Calculations done same way as above)."
Wouldn't that mean that your nitric is coming to around the conc of the H2SO4 (98%). If that is so the even using the 35% to
65% would give you the tri nitrate in stead of the hexa nitrate .
Dr. Hextromeister May 1st, 2007, 09:10 AM

Ammonium Nitrate is your friend.....
As previously stated, KNO3 needs to be added slowly over a period of around 15 minutes to allow for the right conditions to
work with. Stirring while being slowly killed by nasty vapors isn't such a good thing to do.... So have your gas mask at the
ready.
Mesh5 May 1st, 2007, 03:54 PM

If you're making a small amount of NC (4g orso) KNO3 doesn't need to
be added slowly. You won't need any temp. controll whatsoever.
This (http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/index6.html) is a nice and simple tut. Don't use toilet paper though.
EDIT: You're using 50g of NaNO3 on 30ml of H2SO4!? That's waay too much NaNO3. 20-30g of -NO3 on
30ml of H2SO4 has always done the trick with me. Let it nitrate for 3 hours and you're sure to have
NC that will poof when you light it. Make sure to clean it of acids properly or it will NEVER dry. Drying can
be done in an oven heated to 100C with hot air (turn the oven off and put your NC in).
I think I can (sort of) explain what the mistake is you made. You calculated your quantities to fabricate
HNO3 I'm guessing that the HNO3 this method makes is diluted with water. That's why you need H2SO4
to get the water out sort of (I'm not sure, fact is you NEED the H2SO4 in your mix). The problem lays
not at all in your nitrate-salt.
w00t first post :D.
Choppy May 1st, 2007, 08:14 PM

"Which turns out, if I use 50grams of NaNO3, then I'll need to use 57.64 grams of sulphuric (31cm3 of sulphuric acid).
(Calculations done same way as above)."
Wouldn't that mean that your nitric is coming to around the conc of the H2SO4 (98%). If that is so the even using the 35% to
65% would give you the tri nitrate in stead of the hexa nitrate .
I dont quite follow what you mean, I'm afraid. Are you saying that by using the quanitites which I have I am basically creating
a very strong nitric in which will only produce a trinitrate instead of the better hexanitrate?
I've been drying the stuff for a week or so now, and it burns, fast, but with a bit of residue which is annoying. I believe it may
still be a little damp, or just didnt nitrate properly. There was still a fair porportion of undissolved sodium nitrate in the
sulphuric solution, so I have been advised to basically anhydrate it by heating to like 100*C, obviously not decomposing as it
doesnt untill around 300 odd.
I used the 50g nitrate:57g sulphuric (31ml) ratio, what is it which works best? I should be getting some AN and KNO3 soon
too.
ponder May 3rd, 2007, 08:00 AM

All I was tyring to say was that if your are using to much nitric acid in ratio to sulphuric then you might not get the best
nitration results . Meaning that you will get the tri-nitrate version rather than the hexa-nitrate.
As for the residue left it should not be any salts from the nitrating mixture as they will be soluble and wash of when you are
washing to get rid of th excess acid.
If it is taking long to dry you probably still have some acid in your nitrocellulose , when that had happened to me i had had
the same probs that you are having.
me234 May 4th, 2007, 08:10 AM

Basically what I understand you to be doing is making some ~98 % nitric acid, and trying to use that as a nitrating agent for
cellulose. Also you not quite sure why Powerlab's method uses more sulphuric than stochiometrically required right?
Well, first of all, using so much nitrate salt with so little acid (whether it's the right amount or not) is going to give you
problems (had them myself). Secondly, Instead of a straight nitric acid bath, why not try a nitric acid / sulphuric acid bath as
with most nitrate esters?
This is what Powerlab's method uses: You add enough sulphuric acid to react with the nitrate salt to give you nitric acid, but
then you add further sulphuric acid to give you a nitric/sulphuric acid nitrating mixture.
This gives you at least 2 advantages: Firstly, you get to add extra sulphuric acid which gives you plain old extra volume of
solvent to dissolve all your salt into, and; Secondly, straight nitric acid (ignoring any unconverted sulphuric acid) fails to give
you the nitronium ion NO2+ (which is the true nitrating agent) in any great quantity (sorry, forgot how to sub- and superscript).
Adding conc. sulphuric to nitric acid dehydrates the nitric to give the nitronium ion which then goes on to form the nitrate
esters. So extra sulphuric (ala a sulphuric/nitric bath) generally works better IMO.
Good luck with the synths

Sorry about the lack of mutiple paragraphs NBK
Alexires May 6th, 2007, 05:27 PM

Just to add on to what me234 is saying, Sulfuric Acid also acts to "suck up" the water created by reacting the nitric acid with the
cellulose.
What you should do is this. Write out your equation for making nitrocellulose. Calculate how much water it produces, then work
out how much sulfuric acid you need to make the required nitric + how much sulfuric acid you need to absorb all the water + a
little more (not too much, but just in case everything isn't absolutely dry, etc).
I'll leave you to the stoichiometry bliss that is chemistry *grin*.
bobo May 7th, 2007, 12:17 PM

Guideline number one when doing nitrations is that you need excess sulfuric, but not so much excess nitric. Not so much as in
not 3eq of nitric. 1.2 eq of nitric would be far more convenient, or 1.5 eq perhaps. Sulfuric is used in great excess some of the
time. Salts make things more viscous, their concentration should be minimized.
I hate using nitrate salts directly, by the way. Nitrocellulose from cotton is difficult because the cotton is too heterogeneous,
making a sludge is just asking for trouble. This reaction can runaway after unexpectedly long times. I obtained partly nitrated
cotton, too. You have to have excellent stirring capabilities, a rotary drill or something like that is a good idea.
Anyway, it might do to re nitrate the partially nitrated cotton to obtain complete esterification. Unlike aromats, nitroesters don't
generally go more difficult as nitro content goes up.
Choppy May 7th, 2007, 07:02 PM

1. NaNO3 + H2SO4 ---> HNO3 + NaHSO4
2. 2HNO3 + C6H10O5 ---> C6H8(NO2)2O5 + 2H2O
So, after working around the last 1-2 weeks with some research both on the net and actually carrying some through, I firstly
decided to use the 30g (Nitrate ):90g (Sulphuric) t at Powerlabs suggested. The main problem was, even though I managed to
reduce the bisulphate crystals, the actual nitration mixture just wasn't in enough mass to nitrate the cotton that I submerged
in it for 4-6 hours. It ended up being okay, didnt burn down to nothing which was dissappointing, but I detonated it with some
HMTD that I made up. Not that good. And rather dissappointed.
Very pleased that the actual chemical reasoning has been explained, stops my on going fight that the equation must be
correct to follow stoichmetrically. Anyway, I would preferably like to find the exact quantites (for self satisfaction) of each
reactant, so I can actually scale up, or scale down making nitrocellulose.
Alexires, I tried having a bash at doing some calculations for the method in which you suggested, but I couldnt make it work
without manipluating some of relative molecular mass of the compound. I couldnt get the ratio correct, because two of the
things are being mixed up, its not as easy as the classic "how much NaCl is made with 92grams of sodium" because theres
one product, with two products its not doable. Or is it?
I have a new plan however. If I take a round bottom flask, clamp it up, and pour in my 60cm3 (90g) of sulphuric, and then
add in the sodium nitrate, using around 20-30gs of it, take a bunsen fitted to a butane canister, using a g cramp (oh yes,
cramp, GCSE resistant materials taught me that one) as a regulator, then if I heat the mixture gently the nitrate will dissolve
much easier with less hasle. If I then took this, let it cool and added the cotton in for nitration then wouldnt that be successful,
as the desired amounts would actually be in solution?
I will try this, and get back about it.

Choppy - *sigh* Ok then. Lets see how we go.
Lets say we want to make one mole of nitrocellulose. That means we need 1 mole of cellulose (1:1 ratio from the equation
2HNO3+C6H10O5 --> C6H8(NO2)2O5 + 2H2O).
1 mole of cellulose = 162.1g

2 moles of HNO3 = 126g
Ok, so you need 126g or 2 moles of HNO3.
As we know that NaNO3 reacts with H2SO4 in a 1:1 ratio to give 1 mole of HNO3, then we need 2 moles of NaNO3 and 2 moles
of H2SO4.
2 mole of NaNO3 = 169.8g

2 mole of H2SO4 = 196.04g
That is the basic reaction. Of course, we now need some more H2SO4 to soak the H2O made during the NC reaction. We know
that 2 moles of H2O are produced for every mole of NC.
Now, I don't know how much water Sulfuric Acid is capable of absorbing, but I believe it is two moles for every mole of Sulfuric
acid due to this equation:
H2O + H2SO4 --> H3O+ + HSO4-
then
HSO4+ + H2O --> H3O + SO42-
So, assuming this is correct, we now need another mole of H2SO4 to absorb the water created. This ends up with 294.06g of
H2SO4 in total.
So I would guess this. Add 169.8g of dry pure NaNO3 to 300g of 100% sulfuric acid. Then, when you are ready, add 162.1g of
pure cellulose to the sulfuric acid mixture. This should be enough sulfuric to a) react with the NaNO3, b) soak up the excess
water, c) with a little left over.
Given the density of 100% H2SO4, this is about 163mL of H2SO4.
I've looked over this a few times, and I'm pretty sure its ok. The only problem could be equilibrium. If the Nitrate Salt/Sulfuric
reaction is an equilibrium reaction, you are going to need more H2SO4 to push the reaction towards the Nitric acid side. Same
with the NC reaction.
The floor is now open for opposing view points *grin*.
Choppy May 12th, 2007, 08:51 PM

Ahh excellent maths, however I am a tad confused on the use of the RMM (relative molecular mass, ie Fe = 56g per mole,
being used as the mass, in this case you use H2SO4 = 98 per mole, doubled up to 168g per mole) seeing as I usually use
the mass = moles x RMM, so RMM = mass/moles, and so, moles = mass/RMM.
But anyway, I got myself over the last week a good set of 0.01 scales, and I performed the experiment, using a 30g-90g ratio
of nitrate:sulphuric, and even after adding in the nitrate slowly as suggested by many above, there was still wayyy to much
undissolved nitrate.
I am guessing, that my sodium nitrate is way too hydrous for the reaction. I still managed to, (what I believe is) fairly well
nitrated cotton. I will have to test this out. I'm thinking maybe heat my nitrate up to the level at which it will remove the water
from the compound, and give a more solube nitrate..
ponder May 13th, 2007, 04:21 PM

"Now, I don't know how much water Sulfuric Acid is capable of absorbing, but I believe it is two moles for every mole of Sulfuric
acid due to this equation:
H2O + H2SO4 --> H3O+ + HSO4-
then
HSO4+ + H2O --> H3O + SO42-"

That has nothing to do with the dehydratind power of the sulphuric acid ,in those equations you are just representing the
equation of a di basic bronsted-lawry acid .
FUTI May 14th, 2007, 03:11 PM

Are you guys sure about undisolved nitrate? I have seen KHSO4 precipitating during making "chrom-sulfuric-acid" (God knows
how you call that in English), so maybe you have seen the same thing just didn't understood it clearly. Did you check is that
undisolved thing mostly nitrate or sulfate?

Ok ponder, go for it. How much water does sulfuric acid absorb? I said I didn't know, put forward an assumption (stated)
based on some research.
Where is your supporting documentation/argument besides "No it doesn't".
Considering you can't spell "Bronsted-Lowry" correctly, I don't see how you expect me to believe you :rolleyes:
ponder May 15th, 2007, 05:01 AM

Ok ponder, go for it. How much water does sulfuric acid absorb? I said I didn't know, put forward an assumption (stated)
based on some research.
Where is your supporting documentation/argument besides "No it doesn't".
Considering you can't spell "Bronsted-Lowry" correctly, I don't see how you expect me to believe you :rolleyes:
Sorry for being off topic . I have not experimented with the dehydrating power of sulphuric acid but you could do a few simple
experiments to find out , for example you can leave a known amount of sulphuric acid in air and see how much water it
absorbs from the air the time you leave it going for might be quite lengthy,to get more of a precise answer you might want to
carry out a few titrations. On another note the dehydration of sugar with the aid of sulphuric acid if a definite indication that it
absorbs more than 2 molecules of sulphuric per molecule sulphuric.
Grapes Of Wraith October 8th, 2007, 10:23 PM

quote by Rbick:
"Now as for the role of Sulfuric Acid: As mentioned earlier, the Sulfuric is used to absorb water from the resulting nitration and
act as a catalyst, driving the reaction. Unless of course if you are using a nitration salt, in which case the Sulfuric is also used
to make HNO3 through the reaction with the nitrating salt. Sulfuric Acid is not always needed in some reactions. For instance,
RDX and PETN can use 95% or higher HNO3 alone. What happens when the Sulfuric Acid mixes with the water is as follows:
H2SO4 + H2O --> H3O+ + SO4 -
This creates a positively charged Hydronium ion and a negatively charged Sulfate ion. The two bond to form Sulfuric Acid
Hydrate, or H2SO4*H2O. This is how Sulfuric Acid absorbs the water. If you can, visualize the Water and Sulfuric Acid sharing
a Hydrogen atom. Sulfuric acid hydrate can be turned into steam from the exothermic reaction with water, which is corrosive
and dangerous. Remember, add acid to water, not water to acid ."
This sounds right to me. but does that mean that 1 molecule of sulphuric only absorbs one water molecule?
Rbick October 9th, 2007, 12:05 PM

I didn't put accurate numbers for the reason that I'm not sure how many molecules of water 1 mol of Sulfuric Acid absorbs. I
just know it is used for dehydration (among other things), and attracts water strongly enough to be considered hygroscopic.
It is probably more than 1, considering Sulfuric Acid is composed of a positive H ion and a negative Bisulfate ion. Or H+ and
HSO4-. Or I guess you could say 2 positive H ions and one sulfate ion with a -2 charge. This makes the molecule itself
electrically neutral, as things in nature tend to move towards more stability (entropy in action!), but the components hold the
charge regardless. Along with the above reaction, which was discussed just a few posts eariler in this thread, the positively
charged H ion(s) may attract the negatively polar Oxygen of the water molecule and the negativley charged Bisulfate would
probably attract the positivley polar Hydrogen in other molecules of water. The above explains how most ionic compounds
become hydrates. I had to bust out the organic chemistry text book for this... :D
In case you're wondering, polarity (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_polarity) of a molecule depends on the

electronegativity (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronegativity) of an element. This is determined by the elements
electron affinity, or how easily the element will give away or gain an electron. So when two mols of Hydrogen Bond with the one
mol of Oxygen, the two elements' electronegativity effect the polarity of the molecule. So, since Hydrogen has a very low level
of electronegativity, and Oxygens is substancially higher (the further up and right you go on the periodic table, the more
electronegative elements become, Flourine being the most), the electrons shared in the molecule will be more attracted to, or
"spend more time" around the Oxygen Nucleus. This will cause the side of the molecule with the oxygen atom to be more
negativley charged (electrons are negativley charged particles), and are therefore attracted to the H ion of the Sulfuric Acid.
The opposite is true of the H atoms of the water, which will be more attracted to a negative charge. When enough water has
bonded to the molecule, it will dissolve in the water, becoming a solution. I think part of the purpose of the Sulfuric Acid in a
nitration reaction is to have all the water absorbed and have enough Acid to not fully be dissolved by the water. This is a little
off topic of NC, but it is applicable to the reaction needed to make it. Hope this helps the understanding of it.
How many it would bond with, I'm not sure. Could any body verify this or correct me if I'm wrong?

If you are going to be pedantic, spell electronegativity right... :) Polarity is not just about electronegativity, carbon is only
slightly less electronegative than oxygen, yet simple alkanes are not polar molecules. Water is polar because of its lone pair
of electrons, the molecule is no longer linear which contributes to a dipole. Even fluorine containing molecules can be non-
polar if in pairs because the effects of one cancel out the other.
You should also know that acidic species form H3O+, and solvation effects are a very complicated gridwork in solution as water
can bond to other waters or species in the water.
LibertyOrDeath October 9th, 2007, 11:17 PM

Not being anything close to a chemist myself, I just did a quick Wikipedia check of how much water sulfuric acid will absorb
(link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid#Reaction_with_water)).
It says that sulfuric acid reacts with water in two steps. First there's this:
H2SO4 + H2O H3O+ + HSO4-
Then the bisulfate ion reacts with another water molecule:
HSO4- + H2O H3O+ + SO 42
So, if we believe this, each mole of sulfuric ultimately "deals with" two moles of water. But then there's the solvation of each
hydronium ion by multiple water molecules.
The above seems sensible, but maybe it's overly simplistic for what's being discussed here? I.e., in some reactions (possibly
including NC) maybe the HSO4- ion initially produced will have a significant probability of reacting with something other than a
water molecule, meaning that the H2SO4 will have killed off only one water molecule in that case? Pardon my naivety if this
makes no sense.
Rbick October 10th, 2007, 12:35 AM

Thanks for the corrections Mega, I felt silly when I saw my mispelling. As far as being pedantic, well you know I'm always trying
to impress you guys :D, along with trying to learn of course, since obviously I wasn't all too clear on the reaction.
But the polarity has little to do with the amount Sulfuric Acid bonds with water then? Its probably almost impossible to figure
everything that happens exactly, but maybe the reaction between Sulfuric Acid and Water is as simple as they have it on
wikipedia in perfect conditions? This reaction is something I don't know much about but have been very interested in for quite
a while. Its fun to know how a reaction works along with actually performing it.
nbk2000 October 10th, 2007, 01:14 AM

Experimentation would be in order.
Leave 1 mole of sulphuric acid exposed to the open air until it no longer gains weight, at which time you calculate the water
absorbed, and that tells you what you want to know. :)

Sounds like physical chemistry... EVIL! RUN AWAY!
rangegal October 25th, 2007, 01:01 AM

Has anybody ever heard of nitrating ping pong ball cellulose trinitrate into cellulose hexanitrate?
I'm just wondering because I'm going to try synthesizing NC for my first time tomorrow, but I can only make a bit because I
only have a couple cotton balls left. Then I remembered I have a little jar of thick ping pong ball NC lacquer I mixed up the
other day.
I figure it should work, since toluene is nitrated into the mono, then di, then trinitrate in separate steps. But other things in
the ping pong balls (I read theres some camphor in there?) might get in the way of the nitration. Plus, as NBK says; chemistry
isn't 1+1.
Either way I'm going to try it. I just wanted to see if anybody has heard of this before.
rangegal November 3rd, 2007, 03:49 PM

Nitrating trinitrocellulose into hexanitrocellulose doesn't work. I don't know why I thought ping pong ball NC would dissolve in
the acid mix.
I also learned when dealing with chemicals and using long sleeves for slight protection past your gloves, put rubber bands on
your wrists to hold the sleeve to your skin. I was wiping spilt H2SO4 off the side of my graduated cylinder when I stupidly
turned it upside down and a drop or two of acid left inside it must have fell down my sleeve. I didn't notice until I felt my flesh
stinging and pulled up my sleeve to see what was up. A square half inch spot of flesh was red and puffing up along with tiny
dots around it. I washed, neutralized and sterilized it before putting some scar ointment on it.
Perhaps wearing short sleeves is better anyway. I have spilt chemicals on my forearms before but always noticed quickly
enough to wipe it and neutralize it before it caused any real damage.
rangegal December 3rd, 2007, 09:23 PM

Sorry for posting 3 times in a row, but I just wanted to share a picture and video of my yield.
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/212/dscf3664smallvh7li5.jpg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IIfTLHX6qWM
Thats a small amount of fluffy NC burning. I don't know how much it weighed.
Is that fast burning? Or can it to be faster?
Barnacles December 6th, 2007, 07:24 PM

I know "SWIM" who puts their NC in a jar and use a hand blender to increase the surface area. Also he noted that NC burns
extremely fast each time high quality or not if ignited with a cherry from a cigarrette or other smoking types.
EDIT as someone named bert mentioned in your video comments on youtube, that it appears to be lower quality. My question
is how much would this effect VOD? the difference between the tri and hexa nitrates?
Masonjar Chemist December 6th, 2007, 08:52 PM

I also know "SWIM" who will never put anything other than inert compounds in his coffee grinder after he had an incedent with
nitrocellulose detonating inside of his. Honestly this is a bad idea I would stop imediatly if you value your fingers.
Barnacles December 7th, 2007, 01:53 AM

Its never a large amount and always done remotely, so he says. I should've said that but to me its common sense. No
offense intended.
EDIT the hand blender is about 2 feet long, and its blended in a plastic measuring cup that isnt sealed and never more than a
gram or 2 is done ,so he says.
Could it be you did it in a sealed environment which allowed a DDT? any glass involved?
Thanks for the concern though! Will definately keep that in mind!
Man Down Under December 7th, 2007, 04:53 AM

It could be done safely if the NC was blended while suspended in water.
Bert December 8th, 2007, 03:36 AM

Phokion Naoum describes milling partially finished smokeless powder under water in a wheel mill to reduce it to particles small
enough to be shot in rock bore holes. This was done during the period after WWI, when they were recycling military surplus
into civilian explosives.
peppovsky February 10th, 2008, 02:21 PM

...I'm starting to think something is wrong with my chemicals (or is it with me?):
Today was my 5th unsuccessful (!!) try on Nitrocellulose synth. I used 100% cotton pad, 68% HNO3 and 98% H2SO4 . I mixed
(drop wise) 3.5 ml of HNO3 with 6.5 ml of H2SO4 . I then added about 2 grams of cotton, and let it nitrate for 30 mins, while
the temp kept at ~23 C. Then neutralized with saturated NaCO3 mixture, and two times water (the last batch of water was
slightly basic when I tested it).
Now the thing is - as every time I tried making NC - the shit doesn't burn at all. I even tried igniting it with a torch - nothing. I
dissolved it in acetone - and not all of the pad dissolved, just some it.
I really don't understand this. Should I let it sit in the mixture for more then 30 mins? Should I let it dry for a couple of days
before trying to ignite it? should I rise the temp a bit while it's in the nitrate mixture?..
EDIT: I take that all back. Stupid me, never gave it a chance to dry thoroughly. After writing the post I took some and dried it
in an oven for 210F (about 100C) for an hour. Then tested it. Now it burns fast, flashy and with that famous "woosh" sound. A
lesson for all us noobs out there - let things dry before you give up :)
Charles Owlen Picket February 11th, 2008, 10:49 AM

...I'm starting to think something is wrong with my chemicals (or is it with me?):
Today was my 5th unsuccessful (!!) try on Nitrocellulose synth. I used 100% cotton pad, 68% HNO3 and 98% H2SO4 . I mixed
(drop wise) 3.5 ml of HNO3 with 6.5 ml of H2SO4 . I then added about 2 grams of cotton, and let it nitrate for 30 mins, while
the temp kept at ~23 C. Then neutralized with saturated.....
Your'e going too small scale! That's all. Everything is fine you just can't scale down NC synthesis to that point. Try working with
at least a few hundred ml of acid and give it a try; you'll do fine! Nitrations are the Big Birtha of organic reactions and just
need a heft and push to get them moving especially on cellulose ... :D ... You are going to NEED TO SPEND ACID on a
nitration. That's a fact of life. :p
peppovsky February 16th, 2008, 10:41 AM

Thanks for answering, Charles.
Since my first success, I've slowly raised the scale each synth - even when it comes to the simplest nitrations I believe in
caution. I know that I can theoretically scale it up as much as a factor of 10 or more, but before I start "manufacture" stuff in
"bulk" (by "manufacture" and "bulk" I mean, of course, 100 grams NC MAX :p ), I need to see I can handle a reaction on a
small scale... ;)
Yet, one thing remains unclear... when making the nitrating solution (0.65 parts [conc] H2SO4 and 0.35 parts [68%] HNO3, by
volume), I first pour the H2SO4, then I stir (with a magnetic stirrer, 'course) and add HNO3 drop wise (actually 1/2 ml wise ;) ),
on an ice bath, to avoid hot acid spills. This takes a lot of time.
My questions are:
1. Which is safer - Adding the HNO3 to H2SO4, or the other way around?
2. Is there any other safe way of mixing these acids, which is a faster one?
(EDIT: now that I think about it, since the HNO3 contains water, I should probably add the H2SO4 to the HNO3 and NOT the
other way around - "Add acid to water", after all... am I right?)

Realistically... acid to acid additions on the level we are talking about [with nitric and sulfuric] - the addition order means
little.... Personally I would add the sulfuric to the nitric (for a somewhat quirky reason) but it's not big deal. You could make a
point that there is more water in the nitric so that should dictate your choice; but I don't think it's a big deal....
If you can, keep the acids cold. You know that an exothermic reaction takes place when they are mixed; if they start off cold
the level of heat produced is much less, even if mixed as fast as possible.
Put a pinch of Urea in the nitric; it keeps that delicious spicy nitric smell around awhile longer. You know.... "the smell of camel
shit, RDX & cosmoline; that's the smell of the desert"
peppovsky February 17th, 2008, 02:33 PM

Of course, I always mix the acids on an ice bath, while monitoring the temp... The highest temp I've got to this day was 30C.
Though, I haven't yet made a larger then 20 ml batch, and I guess a 100 ml batch or so will give off much more heat ;)
Yesterday, when making another NC batch, I've mixed the acids the other way around then I was used to (H2SO4 to HNO3 this
time). Well, what can I say - the mixture got hotter then usual. I started on an ice bath, with temp at 10C, then it raised to
22-25C while adding the H2SO4, and it even gave out more acid vapors then usual - the other way around it tends to raise up
to 20C, and give much less vapor. oh well.
Charles Owlen Picket February 17th, 2008, 08:31 PM

Just in point of our discussion, the sulfuric has greater density..... so perhaps that influences the exothermic dynamic.
Another thought -> I had some fantastic results in NC with toilet paper. I'm not kidding. It worked so well as to really be the
first choice I make rather than cotton batting. I did try some totally natural cotton from a plant once but even after cleaning it
- it still had some inconsistent results.
When people didn't burn their ping-pong balls 1st to SEE whether they were cellulose, some people attempted to nitrate them
and wound up with plastic crap... :-] Geniuses! But those that did try to nitrate existing cellulose products often had pretty
good results. The method of extracting NG & NC cleanly from double based smokeless powder is to use ethyl acetate and
ethanol. I tried it and it really DOES work!
peppovsky March 3rd, 2008, 08:09 AM

btw - How do you guys suggest to store the NC? I usually put it in a small plastic box, wet with lots of (distilled!) water, sealed
so it won't get dry. Is there any better way to store it?..
Charles Owlen Picket March 3rd, 2008, 02:34 PM

Storage of esters might include an anti-acid like a carbonate in solution. You could simplify by using baking soda @ 10% with
your water.
Interrelated with this subject is the materials used in firearms propellants. Most people know that the standard of triple based
smokeless is NitroGuanadine but actually there are HE's that are used as propellants as well! All these materials can be
sourced out of the propellant if you have a desire to work at it.
peppovsky March 3rd, 2008, 08:47 PM

It's ok, I have lots and lots of Na2CO3... ;) What about storing it with dry Ethanol?
Charles Owlen Picket March 4th, 2008, 09:22 AM

Alcohol is often preferred as it evaporates fast and [via refrigeration] can maintain itself as a low temp preservative. But you
need a bit of water to dissolved the carbonate in as I believe that it does not go into solution well with alcohols.
Often in times past, kerosene was used as a preservative as it keep oxygen off the target material. But kerosene levels very
tiny (almost imperceivable) amounts of residue after it evaporates.
totenkov March 11th, 2008, 12:21 AM

Yes kerosene is excellent for storing many HE. It is important to store acetylides and fulminates under kerosene because H2O
will decompose them (those aren't the only salts).
I don't know about storing NC under Kerosene however. As Charles said, stay with fast evaporating liquids, Ketones and
alcohols work best, when in doubt, use them before water.
peppovsky March 11th, 2008, 06:50 AM

Thanks for the advice. I have lots of n-Hexane around - I believe I will use it instead of kerosine (probably leaves less
residue).
Charles Owlen Picket March 12th, 2008, 10:09 AM

I can comment on the residual materials left after kerosene evaporates.....it's not too bad and in some applications may be a
positive. There are actually some positives to the use of same (& why it's been in use for some many decades).
Long ago when Hg Fulminate was actually made industrially kerosene was typically used in conjunction with it. When it would
evaporate a tiny bit of residue was left. If the fulminate had any acidity left on it, it was often deposited in the residue. They
they could be quickly flushed out with a fast bath of alcohol or ether & the fulminate was very neutral & acid free. Thus the
preservative also sped production.
The advantage (speaking to the other side of this issue) of kerosene is that it allows virtually no air to ever come in contact
with the product where as some thinner materials might. but most importantly, it can be frozen. This is why it may have been
used so much with fulminate. It does not allow crystal reformation and in a deeply refrigerated environment, it does not allow
for freezing to take place even at ridiculously low temps.
Altroman May 21st, 2008, 07:36 PM

The original idea of "Add the ACID to the Water and not vice-versa" was because mineral acids are denser than water, so the
heat of hydration is released at the bottom of the container, where you have a mechanical "buffer" of a few inches or so of
relatively pure water to protect your face from spattering acid (if you add water to acid, it forms a thin layer on top, then boils
and spatters water and acid all over). When you mix two acids, add the denser acid to the less dense acid, so the same effect
occurs.
Cobalt.45 July 10th, 2008, 05:02 AM

The method of extracting NG & NC cleanly from double based smokeless powder is to use ethyl acetate and ethanol. I tried it
and it really DOES work!
I would be interested in hearing more on the process if possible.
Cobalt.45 July 21st, 2008, 06:28 PM

Turns out no voodoo is involved:). All I did was soak then stir/swirl a 5g quantity of Bullseye with denatured alcohol (100 parts
ethyl to 10 parts methyl alcohol) over a period of an hour.
Decant the solvent into a drying dish, then evaporate the alcohol. What is left is a slightly yellow, viscous quantity of
nitroglycerin. Because of the small amount of Bullseye that was used, the exact amount of NG obtained is not known.
Theoretical yield would be only 2g. Judging by the amount that was obtained, this would be very close to that amount. It was
eventually disposed of by burning.
What is known, is that when you soak a 1cm square piece of tissue with it (folded twice) then strike the tissue w/a hammer/
anvil, the resulting blast will make you wish you had remembered ear plugs!
The powder grain was not physically effected The resulting powder after extracting the NG and drying looked very much as it
had prior to extraction. It did seem to take a little longer to go into a NC lacquer solution when mixed w/acetone (which is what
I was primarily after- "clean" NC from the Bullseye that I had on hand).
The constituents of Bullseye smokeless gun powder are as follows:
Nitrocellulose CASRN 9004-70-0

Nitroglycerin CASRN 55-63-0
Diphenylamine (DFA) CASRN 122-39-4
Ethyl centralite (EC) (diethyl diphenyl urea) CASRN 85-98-3
Rosin CASRN 8050-09-7
Polyester NJTSRN 800928-5003
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > A Noob's Success with AP...
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txclimber April 26th, 2007, 04:45 PM

Hi, it's nice to meet you all.
For the record, I don't really know I'm doing. I'm sure that there are MUCH better and safer techniques to m a k i n g A P t h a n
what I'm about to describe, but this is the result of about 3 days of m y research on this site and the web. I did cut m y own
corners though, and perhaps that is what m osts interests you.
I n g e d i e n t s : 1 0 0 % H C L (Pool Supply), Acetone (Hardware Store), 3% hydrogen pe roxide (Mal-W art), baking soda, ice cubes,
water.
I p u t a s m all beaker in a bowl of ice water, and poured in "som e" acetone. Then I poured in "a little less than that" hydrogen
p e r o x i d e t h a t I h a d b oiled down from 3% to "I don't know" concentration. If I had to guess based on the rem aining liquid in
m y cooking pot, the hydrogen peroxide was 50% concentration or better. I did no t measure any of this stuff, I just guessed at
the proportio ns by looking at the liquid levels.
I stirred the beaker o f a c e t o n e a n d h y d r o g e n p eroxide (H202) together a bit with a test tube, then set the beaker in a bowl of
ice water. I then began adding 100% HCL to the m ix, about 10 drops at a tim e, stirring in between. I let a couple of m i n u t e s
e l a p se between putting the 10 drops in. At som e point (30 drops?) the solution went from clear to cloudy, then started to form
visible white crystals. It was th en that I knew it would work ; )) I was absolutely th rilled, and still am. Anyhow the solution got
thicker and thicker with pretty white AP crystals until add i n g m o r e a c i d s t o p p e d d o i n g a n y t h i n g , s o I s t o p p e d .
I p o u r e d t h e s l u s h o u t o f t h e b e a k e r o nto a coffee filter, and washed the crystals with water a few tim e s . T h e n I w a s h e d t h e m
with a weak solution of water + baking soda. (I hear that it's not necessary to neutralize the acid? O h well...)
Total yield: A volume of crystals that would easily fill a 1.5" diam eter sphere. Tim e to com plete: 1/2 hour. (note the pic below
doesn't show the entire yield).
Thanks to all who have contributed information. I'm having a great tim e with this stuff, an d am responsible with it (shooting
with 17HMR rifle at 100yds. Such fun!!!)
http://hvguy.4hv.org/tem p/AP Synth/im g1.jpg

 
 
 
PTS April 26th, 2007, 05:01 PM

Good for you m ate.:)
But if you got your HCL from the pool shop it would be ~31% not 100% forgive m e if i am wrong.
The_Duke April 26th, 2007, 05:23 PM

Hey great! Another useless AP thread....:rolleyes:
And "100% HCl" does not exist!

Hey great! Another asshole posting in a forum !!
I don't give a shit whether 100% HCL exists or not. Talk about useless...
Lewis April 26th, 2007, 07:38 PM

No, sir, YO U a r e t h e u s e l e s s o ne. This is a forum about science, and believe it or not, we aren't impressed by the fact that you
risked your life for a little AP.
Get a fucking clue.
Frunk April 26th, 2007, 07:52 PM

R e a d t h e d a m n bottle and it will say 30-37% HCl. You are lucky that AP synthesis isn't very picky, but try using 100% nitric in a
reaction where you need 30%.
If 100% HCl existed, you would be dangerously lying instead of being ignorant.
Choppy April 26th, 2007, 08:04 PM

I don't really know I'm doing.
Apparently so! W hat was the point in m a s k i n g y o u r c h e m ical quanities? Nearly everybody has the ability to m a k e
this..unfortunately.
Horrigan April 26th, 2007, 08:12 PM

M a y b e h e m eant liquid hydrogen chloride :D
festergrump April 26th, 2007, 08:48 PM

I did cut m y own corners though, and perhaps that is what m osts interests you.
Nope. This is what interests m e the m ost:
I don't really know [what] I'm d o i n g .
"Pinch, Dab, & Dash" chem ist wannabe s coming close to Darwin Award nom ination s always grab m y attention by the horns... :)
W hen everyone else jumps in and plays niggerpile... well, that's fun to watch, too! :D

I guess that mentioning up front that I really don't know what I am doing wasn't enough.
C h o p p y : T h e a b o v e , a n d a l s o , m y inte nt wasn't to m ask anythin g. My intent was to show that it could be done easily, without
the use of even a graduated cylinder for m e a s u r e m e n t o f t h e c o nstituents.
Lewis: I wasn't trying to im press anyone. Also, I didn't risk m y life. Or m y hearing. Or m y vision. O r my arm hairs.
The fact that 100% HC L doesn't exist, is quite useless, to me, a t this point in tim e . L o o k i n g b a c k , I p r o b a b l y s h o u l d h a v e
been more clear. I prom ise, it wasn't personal :rolleyes:
I s i t a 2 x 4 ? A s t e e l p o l e , o r a b a d g e r m a y b e ? W h a t i s u p your asses? I threw som e stuff together in m y b a c k y a r d , t h e n p o s t e d

on a forum , excited that IT FUCKING W O R KED. Someho w I didn't even get credit for it working. Thanks! That tells m e
s o m ething about you guys.

Nope. This is what interests m e the m ost:
"Pinch, Dab, & Dash" chem ist wannabe s coming close to Darwin Award nom ination s always grab m y attention by the horns... :)
Hey man, I never said that chem istry was m y b est field :D :D
My shit worked!
Awww, poor b aby, I didn't order my chemicals 100% spe cified with a C of C on a p urchase order. Is that what you all wanted m e
to do?? *sniff sniff*
Hooray for garage chem istry :cool:
nbk2000 April 26th, 2007, 09:15 PM

W hat your experim ent proves is that som eone with a dangerous LACK of knowled ge about what they are doing can, have, and
will in the future, m ess with things that can, have, and will in the future, m aim ed and killed people with FAR m o r e e x p e r i e n c e
than you.
The amount of AP in that filter is enough to blow every finger clean off of the han d holding it, and burger-m e a t t h e h a n d t o o .
Your peroxide was no where near 50%, as it's clearly at a full boil in your picture, m eaning it's being decom p o s e d a n d c a r r i e d
away by the steam, n ot concentrating.
W e've had people here do it with 50%, and it p roduces so much heat it'd boil itse lf without the ice cooling and catch on fire,
prior to explosion. :p
30 minutes is FAR too soon to be trying to collect a yield.
But anyways, the point is that because you got away with it once is no excuse to be proud. And coming here, to our 'house',
and then complaining when a long-term resident dresses down the boorish n00b for foolish behaviour, is in itself intolerable.
Bye.
BaronVonSchtupp April 27th, 2007, 02:57 AM

W ow, mixing together stuff at unknown quantities and unknown concentrations is how one loses a hand, lik e t h e t h e s a y i n g
g o e s . I t ' s a l l f u n a n d g a m e s t i l l s o m eone gets hurt.. an d to tell you the truth I've been the "hurt" quite a few times, not
s e r i o u s l y b u t e n o u g h t o g i v e y o u u n b e a r a b l e p a i n a n d s k i n t r a u m a, and I don't wanna experience what it feels like to have a
m issing opposable th umb on one hand.
Let m e just tell you, you won't be laughing at joking around about concentrations and qua lities when you lo se a part of your
hand...considering yo u didn't even care about temperatures your quantity of ap is prolly 98% Dim er form , you prolly do not
know what th at is, they call it "Mother of Satan" for a reason, just wait till your tim e comes... and, oh boy will it com e .
Also, when you com e back onto this forum with 1 less eardrum , you are the one thats getting laughed at.... :)
++++++++++++++
'Prolly' proba bly wants a cracker. :p NBK
Pb_Producer April 27th, 2007, 02:37 PM

You the kind of person that gives newcomers a very bad name, I also agree with nbk in that you a re going to have a very
short life in this hobby.
I recently decided to do my first AP production, I followed chem istry and added th e right proportions, found the concentration
of m y HC l through a titration and was extrem ely careful (and scared) to follow directions and temperatures thoroughly, I must
have read at least 6 hours on this subject. I also m a d e a v e r y s m all quantity just for the records.
Gammaray1981 April 28th, 2007, 04:44 PM

W hy is it that the first high-ish explosive (often first explosive at all) that the newbies try to m ake is the one with the big,
stated-by-every-longtim e-m e m ber-in-every-useless-AP-thread, "This is unstable and impractical to use" warning stickers?
Does the ease with which this stuff is p roduced just sweep all consideration for their own safety from their m inds? Or is it that
they think they're im m ortal? Because it seem s to me th at anything that will go off if you d rop it, which will also rem ove your
hand in any quantity, is not som ething to m a k e a k i l o o f o n y o u r first try. (Phone, R.I.P)
And then the y post about it. As if there aren't at least twenty other threads on the sam e subject. You succeeded, so did
everyone else who tried. W ell done, but we didn't need to know. Now go dispose of it safely before you becom e a n o ther victim
and get H2O2 and ketones banned.
209 April 28th, 2007, 09:03 PM

I only m a k e m i n i m al amounts of AP at a tim e for the occational electronic cap. You should see the way I handle AP, I handle it
as if it were.........AP :D. I am currently searching for a safe(er) explosive for blasting caps, picric a cid m ay be a possiblity.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > NC /NG/NM/NH4 sta bilized Detonator
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Voodoo0744 May 3rd, 2007, 01:16 PM

First off, I'd just like to say thanks guys for having a we bsite where nobody is an unreasonable prick, like o ther sites. Anyhow.
I ' v e b e e n t h i n k i n g a b out a com p o u n d d e t o n a t o r u s i n g p e r h a p s 1 - 1 1 / 2 g r a m s bullseye sm okeless pistol powder, which is NC /

NG/2% stabilized. It has TNT equivalent VoD and brisan ce.
-Could possibly be damp with NG, NM, EDGN, or PGDN to enhance sensitivity and Over Vod/ brisance.
-KCL03/04 for Oxy-balance?
-20-30% AP or 20% KCL03 for sensitivity to detonation?
Second, under that charge is a sm all a mount of PLX liquid explo sive, wielding 2.2 tim es the power of our previous m aterial.
T h i s c o u l d b e a b s o r b e d i n a s m all am ount of NH4NO 3 instead of pure NH4 or other aniline s, trading power for stability.
On top of this charge would be placed a normal prim ary explosive such a s a n e x p l o s i v e p e r o x i d e ( n o t H M T D , i t d e t o n a t e s a f t e r
awhile on contact with the Bullseye powder.), an azide, acetylide, or fulum i n a t e .
If th is detonator can be successfully fa bricated, we will have at least a sm all bom b with extremely decent capabilities.
Note: I am recieving an order of 99.5% Nitrom e t h a n e i n 3 - 4 w e e k s , b e g i n n i n g C h lorate/Perchlorate electrolysis in 5-7 days,

and getting Bullseye powder from a m u t u a l f r i e n d s o o n .
*VoD: Trinitrotoluene 6900 Meters per second, theoretically m aking this detonato r hold extrem e power. Even if the PLX charge
didn 't detonate properly, this detonato r still has TNT power.
C o n t a i n e r : l a r g e s p e n t r o u n d , . 2 2 3 / 7 . 6 2 m m . drinking straw (Thick kind, but has to fit)
Pack in the BSP Charge.

Carefully press in the AP charge on top of it(practical, but dangerous chain-detonation cha rge)
S e a l o n b o t h e n d s , a d d fuse or rocket initiator/wire to AP. Call this Det. #1
Take Epoxy paint or sim ilar adhesive, pour in the empty shell, a nd pour out, letting it coat the inside for a thin, but durable
seal.
Mix up a very sm all a mount of PLX or AN/NM (very damp).
Pour/inject or pack an am ount of PLX/ANNM explosive unitl the shell is 1/3 (? goo d enough?) full.
Insert Det. #1(sealed) on top/into the PLX/ANNM.
Crim p, seal generously with epoxy.
/ \
|[AP ]|
-----
|[BSP]|
---
|=PLX=|
____
If th is post is com p l e t e l y u s e l e s s g u y s / l a d i e s , I a p o l o g i z e . : o
Otherwise give m e yo u comm ents/critisism ! :)
Voodoo0744 May 3rd, 2007, 01:23 PM

O n s e c o n d t h o u g h t , I b e t a n y m o d e r a t e l y p o w e rful home synth'd explosive could match the sm okeless (*IE: Picric acid, ETN,
PETN, RDX, of that so rt.)
I guess the point is: Q uick, easy, powerful, Safe, Reliable.
I really bet it detonates ANFO. I intend to do tests as soon as I recieve my Nitro.
simply RED May 4th, 2007, 07:38 AM

To detonate ANFO reliably you need at least 200g TNT equivalent.
I guess you use 200ml gelatinized NG or EGDN (with 5% sm okeless powder) (booster in a small tin can) and 3 g HMTD for
detonator.
300-500g AN/NM or 200g AN/HMTD (20-30%HMTD) also w o r k s a s a g o o d b o o s t e r .

Making straight anfo is waste. Go for a monal, anfo-k, AN-terpentine-Al, AN-urea nitrate etc...
This is the 1000001 time this question h a s b e e n a s k e d a n d a n s w e r e d , b t w . . .

V o o d o o - Y o u p r o b a b l y c o u l d h a v e f o u n d a t h r e a d t o p o st that in....
Personally, from a chem ical standpoint, I would be hesitant to m ix AP with a per/chlorate. It might form per/chloric acid, and a s
we know, acids and AP don't really m ix well.... I'd go for the old AP putty with NC in it.
In the next part, if you are talking about amm onia, that is NH3 not NH4. NH4 is the Amm onium ion that really only exists when
a m monia is coupled with something (nitrates, sulfates, etc).
W h y w o u l d y o u u s e a l i q u i d e x p l o s i v e ? T h a t j u s t m a k e s p r o b l e m s of needing to seal the initiator of all liquid so the PLX

doesn't get in there and m a k e i t i n s e n sitive to whatever fuze you are pla nning to use.
If you wanted a liquid explosive, you could try just using MEKPAN without an initiator....
For what purpose do you design this in itiator? If it is just for the sake of m aking an initiator, use som e o n e e l s e ' s t h a t h a s
been proven to work. KISS principle an d all that.
I f i t d o e s h a v e a n o t h e r p u r p o s e t h a t y o u h a v e d e s i g n e d i t a r o u n d , p l e a s e t e l l a n d w e m i g h t b e a b l e t o h e l p s o m e m ore....
Voodoo0744 May 5th, 2007, 02:12 AM

Okay guys, adjustments.
Scratch any chlorates if AP is used, for the danger of Perchloric a cid creation.
(Thanks for the tip-off Alexires)
If AP is howe ver used , m a k e a s h a p e d AP putty charge, 60/40 ratio (AP to SP) for extra power, and less sensitivity. (Is AP
putty DTD capable?)
Again, under that is the Bullseye powder or any sim pler high-ord er explosive with good capabilities. Such as: RDX, PETN, Picric,
ETN..the works. You know.
PLX is still the 3rd charge, it's power versus sim plicity is im pressive.
The charge container is still th e s a m e, unless you are specifically detonating extrem ely insensitive compounds. If you are, it
can be upped to a .50:rolleyes: shell to accom o d a t e a r o u n d 2 0 0 - 2 2 5 m L . o f P L X a s o p p o s e d t o 2 5 m L.-ish in the puny .223.
Thanks a lot for your responses guys.
By the way, glass sna p s ( b u b b l e s , b r e a k s ) c o u l d b e a d d e d t o t h e A N e x p l o s i v e y o u m ight be thinking about to enhance it's

sensitivity.
simply RED June 30th, 2007, 07:45 AM

S o m ebody criticized my post, as a reputation com m e n t : ) .
For this very individual I have to make s o m e e x p l a n a t i o n :
D e a r f o r u m m e m ber, the 3 gram s H M T D i s t h e d e t o n a t o r . T h e 2 0 0 g r a m s h i g h e x p l o s i v e i s t h e b o o s t e r , o k ay? You put the

detonator in the booster and the booster in the AN explosive. You m ay m a k e s e v e r a l h u n d r e d e x p e r i m e n t s t o d e t e r m i n e t h a t
200g is quite sensible amount for AN explosive s booste r.
S o m e m istakes with AN mixes: wet AN, not crushed AN fertilizer prills, too m uch fuel oil, wet fuel oil, diam eter less than critical,
s m a ll booste r, weak enclosing .
If you have m ore questions please ask as a PM.
Alexires July 29th, 20 07, 11:5 9 PM

Maybe its just this thread, sim ply RED, but som e o n e d i d n ' t l i k e m y AP putty com m e n t a s w e l l , f o r s o m e o b s c u r e r e a s o n .
For that person, I'm assuming that you think that som e kind of AP putty is a k3wl idea, but it has been m e n t i o n e d h e r e o n t h e
forum , and is a m ix of AP with Nitro C ellulose.
The appropriate thread is here (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=353&highlight=putty), I believe.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tetraacetone Tetraperoxide
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There was a pdf article concerning Tetraacetone Tetraperoxide synthesis with tin tetrachloride (7 Euro for 200 m l here) as a
catalysator. Back in 2002 as I rem e m ber...
Unfortunately I lost the file and can not find it on the hard drive, neither in the net. Does som ebody have the article?
I would like to try TeATP because it was written in the article that this primer is less sensitive and m ore powerful than TATP, but
gives the sam e good yield.
D o e s s o m e b o d y h a v e a n y e x p e r i e n c e w i t h T e A T P ? I g u e s s i t w o u l d b e s o m ething sim ilar to DPPP in physical properties and

sensitivity?
zeppelin69 May 5th, 2007, 01:59 PM

There was a thread on this awhile back. http://www.rogu esci.org/theforum /showthread.php ?t=490&highlight=tetra+ap
I doubt that it will help you m uch though, but p ersonaly I don't think the pdf would either, it looks like this stuff is just a bunk
as DPPP.
simply RED May 5th, 2007, 06:52 PM

pdf nowhere found...
nbk2000 May 5th, 2007, 07:35 PM

A n o n y m ous delivers! :D
(4ch an joke...)
Attachm ent rem oved because it was corrupted.

T h e a r c h i v e i s d a m a g ed...
I found the pdf in the net, thanks anyway.
http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/article.asp?doi=a809955c
Free access, click on the pdf.
Beauford August 19th, 2008, 12:14 PM

Has anyone had success with the Sn4+ synthesis? I appear to be getting a good yield of TATP, not TrATrP.
Alexires August 21st, 2008, 02:41 AM

Beauford - Perhaps you would like to post a write up of your exp eriment using Tin as a catalyst?
It m ight just stop that ban you have com ing from the Necromancy you just com m i t t e d t o a s k s u c h a q u e s t i o n .
Beauford August 22nd, 2008, 06:46 PM

Alex ires,
I'm afraid yo ur last m essage was too cryptic for this particular junior mem ber.
++++++++++++++++++++
Don't sign your posts. - The_Duke
thelasttrueone S e p t e m b e r 2 0th, 2008, 11:17 PM

Alrig ht, since this has gone too long without saying by a m od I will explain. Necrom ancy is asking questions of those who are
long gone. If you look at the poster above your first post you will see why you are never g oing to get an answer. Ho wever
adding new info (your synth notes) is acceptable, which is why Alexires was so ma g n a n i m ous as to allow you to m a k e u p f o r
your blunder.
Alexires S e p t e m b e r 2 1st, 2008, 10:43 AM

Thanks for that, thelasttruone . Idiots like these don't tend stick in my mind for too long :rolleyes:.
My mercy only goes so far, though. Re gardless of not being able understand the concept of "Necro mancy", I asked for a write
up and I don't see a write up.
T h e G o d s m u s t b e a p p e a s e d , s o B e a u f o r d ' s r i g ht to bre a t h e h a s n o w b e e n r e v o k e d .
waveguider S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2008, 09:57 AM

I'm not 100% sure on this but I believe ''Nuclearrabbit'' tried the synthesis but was completely unsuccessful.
He can be co ntacted via:
googling ''youtube nuclearrabbit''
I s e n t h i m a m e s s a g e a n d h o p e f u l l y h e w e l l p o p r o u n d s o o n , h e 's a cool guy so I'm sure he'll be more than helpful.
Sim ply RED mentione d DPPP, wasn't there a hu ge article on DPPP and eventually som eone tested it and realized it was just
plain AP?
I could be wrong.
Cobalt.45 S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2008, 10:03 PM

...wasn't there a huge article on DPPP and eventually someone tested it and realized it wa s just plain AP? I could be wrong.I
recall something like that, too . IIRC, it not only turned out to be TATP, b ut the dim er form , as well.:p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Azide Big Crystals
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deady May 30th, 2007, 11:28 AM

Hi Guys
first sorry for my bad english. i'm a swiss guy trying to ask some questions :D
The Synthesis of Leadazide told me that without adding dextrine it can happen that big crystals can be formed wich can detonate themself if they are broken. so my question:
whats the size of this crystals? Because i did some Leadazide without dextrine. And i become this result:
http://www.freestyledesignlab.ch/images/bleiazid.jpg
This are potions of fine leadazid powder dryed and they stick together. (in german: zusammenkleben) Is it dangerous to grind the sticky powder softly with a spoon? no, not
grind.. how to say.... to take away from the ground... i want to take the powder away without detonation ;)
Thanks for answer ;)
Greetings deady
The same in german (if someone can speek ;))
Bei der Synthese von Bleiazid entstand eine Masse die Gipsartig ist und zusammenklebt. Habe kein Dextrin benutzt. Nun die Frage: sieht man die berchtigten, zu grossen
Kristalle? Kann ich das zusammengeklebte Pulver gefahrlos abkratzen?
Gruss deady
Zajcek May 30th, 2007, 03:25 PM

Hi, I have the same problems when I make silver azide. It always sticks itself together when it drys. I bend the filter paper and it simply falls off, then I break the lumps with a
plastic spoon. (I make silver azide instead of lead azide, because I get silver for free from a friend)
You could probably do the same and break those lumps apart with a plastic spoon very, very carefully. Do not use metal spoon!
It would be a good idea to dry it on a paper (filter paper, news paper) next time, because if it goes off on a ceramic plate, you will be full of shrapnel.
Be very careful breaking it. Use as little force as possible and do not forget about personal protection. (leather gloves, safety glasses, hearing protection)!
Again, be very careful and good luck.
+++++++++++
If you don't brake your car in time, you'll break your bones. NBK
nbk2000 May 30th, 2007, 08:38 PM

Once it's caked and dried like that, it's rather dangerous.
Better to resuspend it, add the dextrin, and filter out again.
deady May 31st, 2007, 06:47 AM

Thanks a lot for your helpfull informations. So i'll try with a plastic spoon. Yesterday i took 0.3g of Leadazide and hold with a long firelighter a small flame on it. The detonation
was so f***** loud that my neighbours runs out to their garden to see whats happened :D Only 0.3g!!!!!! Unbeliveble.
Now my question:
Is it possible to burn a small amount of Leadazide without an explosion? Like TATP or DDDP. If you take a small amount of TATP you can burn it without a detonation. Only a
short flame occurs.
Greetings deady
Charles Owlen Picket May 31st, 2007, 12:32 PM

Most all mil-spec formulation either use dextrine or other water soluble DV agent. From the volume viewable upon that plate you could loose some fingers fast. Friction from
the breaking of caked material occurs on a very small level but may occur with enough acuity to detonate a bit which would spread to the whole sample.
This is very good advice as the caking of the material can also hide what may be a very serious problem (foreign matter, etc). Azides are a military standard for several
reasons; one of which is raw power.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AN and Propane?
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blythenator August 6th, 2007, 12:24 AM

Hello all, yesterday I was reading a forum that contained the following text.
" M y u n c l e u s e d a n i n t e r e s t i n g m e t h o d t o d e t o n a t e a m m onium n itrate for m aking farm ponds. He would fill a 10lb propane
tank with unm odified prills, tap in a spark plug (sealing with superglue), and overpressurize the tank with 2 /1 air/propane until
just before the relief valve popped. He then let the tank sit 24 h ours to mix.
The tank's propane was ignite d with an ordinary ignition coil wired to the sparkplug as per usual. Detonation was achieved from
the heat of com bustion in the air gaps between the prills."
Does this sound like it may work? I know you h ave to detonate with super sonic p rimer/bo oster to start the reaction, but what
about the cargo containers that detonated due to fire?
H a s a n y o n e e v e r d o n e t h i s b e fore? I would love to give it a try b ut I have to drive atleast 1-2 hours to be safe.
Jacks Complete A ugus t 6t h, 2007, 07: 16 PM

I t h i n k a n a g g r e s s i v e , e x p l o s i v e m i x o f something like acetylene, com bined with the containm e n t o f t h e t a n k s h o u l d d o i t . A s
long a s t h e m i x i s c o n t a i n e d a n d m ixe d enough to detonate, ANFO s h o u l d g o .
T h e m i x y o u d e s c r i b e would be fine for the gas to air mix (perhaps a bit lean) but is going to be very very lean for the AN
prills.
209 A ugus t 6t h, 2007, 10: 11 PM

I p e r s o n a l l y h a v e c u t o p e n a p r o p a n e t a n k t o u s e f o r a n a l u m inum m elting foundry. I basically tore off the valve with a pipe
wrench nearly a big as me and then filled the tank with water then let it sit for several days. I then sparked up my torch and
cut the top of that would later serve as a lid.
If he did indeed fill the tank full of AN with risid u a l a m o u n t s o f p ropane left, I would think that to be very dangerous, being
that there is still enough propane to detonate the AN. The are far better and safe r methods of detonating AN.
Rbick A ugus t 9t h, 2007, 12: 23 PM

It sounds like it would work, although with that much AN it might be a little over oxidized, but if it works, it works. The proper
Propane to AN ratio would be 5% Propane to 95% AN for full oxidation. The Propa ne doesn't exactly detonate the AN, the AN
would donate its free Oxygen to the Propane, which has the chem ical form u l a C 3 H 8 .
T h e d e c o m position of AN is
NH4NO 3 ---> 2H2O + N2 + 1/2O2
That 1/2O2 is what is donated to the unoxidize d c o m p o nent. W ith the introduction of oxygen and heat, propane decom p o s e s
t o 3 C O 2 and 4H2O. This is the reaction you see when you light a cam p stove. The heat from the lighter causes the Oxygen in
the air to oxidize the Propane, starting an exotherm ic reaction. If there is a strong oxidizer, such as AN, the propane will
o x i d ize m uch faster, resulting in a detonation.
U n d e r S T P , p r o p a n e i s o b v i o u s l y a g a s . M y g u e ss is that when the guy pum p e d t h e p r o p a n e b a c k i n t o t h e t a n k c o n t a i n i n g t h e

AN, it was under enough pressure to become a liquid. As a result, you wo uld have a mixture similar to ANFO. Even if the
propane was still in gas form, it would be oxidized non-the-less by the AN in the tank. So there isn 't really anything special
about this explosion other than the ignition. I'm not sure how th at works... Propane is explosive when mixed with air in the
precentages of 2.379.5%. Maybe the spark plug ignite s the propane/air m ix, wh ich then detonates the AN/Propane mix?
Charles Owlen Picket A ugus t 9t h, 2007, 12: 42 PM

P r o p a n e i s e x p l o s i v e w h e n m i x e d w i t h a i r i n t h e p r e c e n t a g e s o f 2 . 3 7 9.5%. Ma y b e t h e s p a r k p l u g i g n i t e s t h e p r o p a n e / a i r m ix,
which then detonates the AN/Propane m ix?
I think you h i t t h e n a i l o n t h e h e a d . Y o u r p o i n t m a k e s s e n s e . H o w e v e r , a m b i e n t t e m p e r a t u r e w o u l d h a v e a m ost basic

influ ence. R ealistically, it could also be that the p r o p a n e e x p l o d e d a n d t h e p r i l l s s i m ply flew. If you didn't exam i n e t h e
explosion yourself, you may never really know.
R e m ember in the OP you stated that the prills were not prepared as an explosive (clay or whatever m ay still be on their
surface) m aking absorption possibly difficult. There are variables that could only be accounted for if you, yourself observed the
phenom enon.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C opper Carbide
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Unsunghero August 21st, 2007, 02:12 AM

Ok, well I have had a couple of close-calls with AP and HMTD sin ce I got into doin g this, and I want a new primary. I was
browsing another forum (not gonna m ention names don't want to anger y'all) and som e o n e s a i d s o m ething about copper
carbide being pretty cheap and sim ple to m a k e .
After searching this forum , no posts co ncerned the synth of CuCarbide which got m e a little suspicious about how well it
performs. Th e o n l y s y n t h I h a v e b e e n a b l e t o f i n d s o f a r is here http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/acetylide.htm
I h a v e n ' t s e e n m uch inform ation on it except that it is soluble in water, which kind of sucks. I was wondering if anyo n e h a s a n y
experience with copper carbide that they would like to share, because I'm looking i n t o m a k i n g s o m e a s t h e m ateria ls are
EXTREMELY easy to obtain.
nbk2000 August 21st, 2007, 03:12 AM

You're batting 0-2 with the search engine.
Once again...UTFSE p ulls up four threa ds with your desired explosive in the title, not counting all the m entions in related
threads.
FAIL.
You failed to find it (if you even bothered U TFSE) becau se the other place (that thankfully remains nam e l e s s ) u s e d t h e
W R O N G n a m e for the explosive that you seek. It's not a carbide. I'd tell you what the proper nam e i s , b u t t h a t ' d b e s p o o n -
f e e d i n g y o u . I ' v e g i v e n e n o u g h hints already for you to find it if you wish to seek it out.
Oh, and it's a primary, not a High-Explosive, so this thread has been mo ved to the proper section.
FAILx2.
iostream333 August 22nd, 2007, 03:20 AM

Perhaps you're referring to copper (REMO VED, as we don't want to spoonfeed them , now do we? NBK)
If so, doing a search of the fo rum yields numerous thre ads discussing it. From what I've read, it's relatively easy to synthesize,
b u t h a s t h e d i s a d v a n t a g e s o f b e i n g q u i t e s e n s i t i v e . I t i s a l s o s o m ewhat impotent compared to other primaries given its low
VoD.
I hope that helps. I don't think it would really be a suitable substitute for HMTD o r AP, in any category.
megalomania August 26th, 2007, 04:28 AM

T h e c o m p o u n d i n q u e s t i o n i s d a n g e r o u s a n d u n s t a b l e . W hen we t it has its industrial uses, but it is completely unsuitable for
m ilitary service as an explosive. The ragheads might tem pt fate with it since it is easy to prepare, but I think even they would
stee r clear. Under sm all scale controlle d experim ents using safety precautions there would be little to fear, but any device large
e n o u g h t o m aim or kill should not use the likes of this.
tmp August 26th, 2007, 05:51 PM

T h e m e m ber in question is lacking in chemical knowledge. The compound in
question is a m o n g t h e u n s t a b le substances that are FOR BIDDEN to transport
by a ny m eans in the U .S.. This according to Federal Motor Carrier Regula tions
and specifica lly the HAZMAT section. Most com pounds with that particular
anio n are also illegal to transport. That's very telling about the instabilities
involved.
Unsunghero October 12th , 2 0 0 7 , 1 1 : 2 0 P M

Yes, I lack in chem ical knowledge, learning little by little. Anyways, I saw a couple of discussions on google including powerlabs
but nothing on the forum s about copper carbide (when searched with quotes there are 3 topics on it in the forum s). I was
unaware that copper carbide is copper acetylide (at least that's what I'm gathering since it's copper *som ething* and that
pretty m uch m e a n s a z i d e o r a cetylide. It seemed like that page had silver acetylide and copper carbide on it, I didn't know..
Anyways for that I apologize, to sum that paragraph up.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > P e r o x i d e W atergel Explosive
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Red Beret October 11th , 2007, 04:31 AM

P e r o x i d e W a t e r g e l E x plosive, is m a d e f r o m h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e , a l u m i n i u m p o w d e r ( f l a k e ? I h a v e a t o m i s e d Al, will it work?),
a n d g u a r g u m . From m y searches here, it dose n't seem t o h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s e d a t l e n g t h .
T h e v i d e o s o f this stuff detonating seem to portray a fa irly low p owered explosive . But, if these chem icals were all that a
person had on hand, it could fill a gap. Maybe for special applications too, or simply as a novelty.
D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a n y e x p e r i e n c e w i t h t h i s e x p l o s i v e ? C a n t h e g u a r g u m be substituted with dextrin or starch? Guar is a pain

in the arse to get here. Maybe with a little adjusting, cornflour would work.
Also, initiatio n sensitivity? I'm assuming it's not all that sensitive, but I do recall som e o n e s a y i n g t h e y u s e d 1 . 5 g o f E T N .
Anyone with experience with this, feel free to add.
I think it's m ainly the novelty of a watergel thats easy to make that has drawn me to it. I mean, ANNM is just as easy to whip
up, m ore powerful, and probably easie r to initiate. Science m a d n e s s h a d a d i s c u s s i o n o n t h i s b u t t h e b o a r d s e e m s to be down.
The Science m adness thread; Peroxide Watergel (http://www.sciencem adness.org/talk/vie wthread.php?tid=3214)
Rbick October 15th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 6 : 2 8 P M

Y e s , g u a r g u m can be replaced with any substa nce to bond the m ixture, as Al and Hydrogen Perox ide don't gell very well. The
g u m itself has nothing to do with the explosive reaction.
W h a t h a p p e n s i s t h e O 2 i s t h e h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e l e n d s O xygen to the Alum inum , oxidizing it. This results in Al2O 3 a n d H 2

g a s . T h e r e m aining water (som e of it, not all) also undergoes the sam e reaction. Any water that didn't lend its oxygen would
turn into steam .
3 H 2 O + 2Al ---> 3H2 + Al2O3
So the water and hydrogen pe roxide is actually the oxid izing agent.
Atomized Al will work fine, and higher conc. hyd rogen peroxide is preferred, although 35% will work as well, just adjust the
a m ounts for the reaction. The m ixture is not very sensitive and does require a significant cap to initiate. I had a 50g charge
that failed to detonate with 1.5g ETN and .5g AP! :o I'm not sure if this was due to insensitivity or to som ething else that was
wrong, although I couldn't im agine what it was...
panzerkampfwagen October 18th , 2007, 12:45 AM

I think that if you added som e a m m onium perchlorate to the mixture the reaction would be m uch faster and m o r e e x p l o s i v e .
If you could m ake it powerful enough, a rather insensitive liquid explosive could be rather helpful, if only for some cruel
practical jokes.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Exotic rocket fuel as explosive?
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panzerkampfwagen October 23rd, 2007, 12:22 AM

I have recently come across some info about an abandoned NASA project using Li, H, F as a rocket propellant. It turns out that it was abandoned because it was far too volatile
and ended up destroying the rocket (after displaying a specific impulse of about 14000Ns/Kg) in a small-scale experiment. I was thinking that if such a combination could be
detonated fast enough (high heat, high velocity primary), it could be used as a form of thermobaric explosive, along the lines of blowing up an acetylene tank.
I was also trying to find a reasonable method of containing/pressurizing (or producing as part of the explosive?) fluorine gas. It might be a little difficult to procure enough
fluorine, but I think that it would be worth it. CaF2 is not very expensive and fluorine can be prepared by electrolysis of CaF2. Or, for some more fun, if I am not mistaken,
some lithium ion batteries are lithium fluoride, so if you could produce an incredibly high current, it may be possible to do an ultra fast electrolysis and produce all of the
compounds at the same time.
I think that substituting sodium for the lithium would make it significantly more feasible with a minimal loss of power. Lithium can be rather hard to produce, and all reactive
metals are expensive to buy.
nbk2000 October 23rd, 2007, 01:21 AM

A Mr. Wizard, huh? :rolleyes:
High-pressure fluorine would, if it didn't kill you, be sufficent in itself to destroy anything that came in contact with it, making an explosion pretty much frosting on the fluorine
cake.
Cost? Astronomical.
Effectiveness? Nothing that an equally expensive amount of explosives wouldn't achieve 10x better.
If you want to bother with elemental fluorine, why not make Chlorine Trifluoride? A gas that sets fire to nearly anything it touches...hair, skin, asphalt. :)
N-stoff ("substance N"), chlorine trifluoride was investigated for military applications by the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Nazi Germany from slightly before the start of World War
II. Tests were made against mock-ups of the Maginot Line fortifications, and it was found to be an effective combined incendiary weapon and poison gas.
...
Handling concerns, however, prevented its use. Clark summarized the difficulties, "It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with
every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to
mention asbestos, sand, and waterwith which it reacts explosively."[8][9]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride
panzerkampfwagen October 23rd, 2007, 07:30 PM

How about HSbF5? It has a pKa of somewhere around -25 and will explode or otherwise annihilate anything except for Teflon, probably because of its high fluorine content. I
believe that it is the most powerful Bronsted-Lowry acid. Electronics duster is C2F5, so I would think that you could use an antimony electrode and some source of hydrogen
(though I would not suggest water) and produce it via electrolysis. Or maybe it would be possible to use some antimonic acid (if it exists) and C2F5 as the fluorine donor to
produce HSbF5 through what could be a fairly simple reaction, sans the elemental fluorine.
nbk2000 October 23rd, 2007, 10:15 PM

Please don't start with 1+1 chemistry. It's nowhere near that simple and will get you banned.
Bert October 23rd, 2007, 10:17 PM

Conjecture has it's place. Immediately before experimental attempts to prove or disprove the theory, ideally. Are you going to try any of this? Can you please have someone
video it from a goodly distance up wind if you do? I'd kind of like to watch, and I suspect you won't be posting your lab notes if you succeed with the proposed substances.
panzerkampfwagen October 24th, 2007, 06:59 PM

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I though that it would turn out to be "1+1 chemistry." I was just throwing out a basic template and wondering if anyone has ever heard of
a synthesis method similar to that.
In any case, it turns out that HSbF5 is the prodct of HF and SbF5. For some reason, SbF5 is not the easiest chemical to find info about. Sb is frequently used in low-temp
casting alloys for fishing weights, solder, and musket loaders (though rarely used for the last purpose). Antimony first forms SbF3 and must then be converted to SbF5. I would
think that the other fluorides could be added by HF, but it would not be very efficient, since I could not see it being easy to push more fluorines onto a compound that has
already reached its most stable form. Plus, I would not appreciate unnecessary exposure to HF. I have no idea what kind of catalyst could survive such a reaction. Iridium may
be able to, but it is also not exactly the cheapest metal.
If I could find a substance that is denser than SbF5 and will not react with it (SbF3) or dissolve it, it may be possible to release elemental fluorine from below it through
electrolysis of HF (dissolved in aforementioned solvent that will not react with the reactants or the products, but will dissolve the HF) and hope that the SbF3 would "soak up"
all of the fluorine being produced. It's a long shot, but it might just work, and it might not be absurdly dangerous. The only question is where I can find HF and equipment that
it would not destroy (teflon?).
It seems rather dangerous, but from what I have read, it would be worth it. And anways, I am not exactly intending on handling anything myself and F2 gas can't exactly
sneak up on you. If I am not mistaken, it looks alot like Cl2 and forms clouds that should be rather easy to see. I am not intending on jumping right into this, so I would like to
some small-scale test runs right after I get the right equipment and materials.
nbk2000 October 25th, 2007, 10:27 AM

Fluorine doesn't have to 'sneak up' on you, in much the same way a Great White shark doesn't have to sneak up on you...it just tears your apart before you know what has
happened to you or have any chance to protect yourself.
You may wish to read up on the history of fluorine and see what happened to a lot of professional chemists who worked with it...blindness, debilitating lung injury, and death.
These guys had state-of-art labs (for the times) and where professionally trained chemists, and they STILL got maimed and killed by fluorine.
Not to dissuade you from trying, but don't be naive about the danger (or cost) of handling such an element.
Charles Owlen Picket October 25th, 2007, 11:36 AM

Fluorine is a motherfucker. I knew a guy who sold chemicals for a living and was not a chemist; he also grew quite complacent. He knew Fluorine was vicious but had some in
a plastic bag on a counter in the back of his place.
He was a nice guy. But what he did was a really stupid move. He originally thought he had gotten sick. Then he thought he had cancer. Then I stopped hearing from him. Don't
fuck with Fluorine.

First of all, I was not intending on putting the only chemical to ever react with all but two of the noble gasses in a plastic bag. I was also not exactly intending on dealing
directly with elemental fluorine. I was referring to something related to the gas collection process via bubbling through water, just replacing the water with SbF3 and an
appropriate solvent.
To make my idea more clear, I am talking about electrolysis of HF or some other convenient fluorine compound that does not take substantial work to melt, then transporting it
via tubing that will not be annihilated by the F2 and allowing it to contact antimony sheets/rods/whatever immersed in something that SbF3 and SbF5 will dissolve in. As the Sb
undergoes reaction, it will go into solution and when all of the antimony has reacted, the fluorine should turn to the dissolbed SbF3. Otherwise, direct addition of HF may be
required.
What I had not noticed before is that Sb is one of those annoying elements that has a +6 charge, so it should not be too difficult to add the extra fluorines. With any luck, it
might skip the intermediary SbF3. SbF5 is a strong Lewis acid, while SbF3 is not, so I think that I should be able to test it directly and determine what it actually is. In any
event, once the SbF5 is created, the hard part is over, since I know for a fact that SbF5+HF=HSbF5.
I just have not idea where to start looking for HF, or if there is a better source of fluorine for the initial Sb+F2 reaction, but I should be able to find one if there is (I'm sure
Wikipedia knows). I just hope that the Fluorine will make it through the solvent. If it can't, I will have to leave it out, and since it is the only thing that will definitely contain the
Fluorine (aside from Teflon or plasma or some other highly infeasible thing), I will have to find some way to make it safer. By the way, can borosilicate glass survive fluorine? I
know that it eats other kinds of glass, but I would hope that Pyrex would be strong enough to at least dramatically slow the reaction.
Bert October 25th, 2007, 10:50 PM

Go to a rock shop/lapidary store. Pretty crystals of Calcium Fluoride are usually available. Used to cost a couple of dollars an ounce when I last bought some. Cheaper than
reagent grade-
Don't work where no one will find your body, and leave a note regarding what you were working with in case you can't talk.
Chemdabbler October 26th, 2007, 03:04 AM

We use HF to clean scratched or scored borosilicate glassware before fire polishing the damage out, it works by dissolving the fine high-surface area glass dust out of the crack,
you then wash it out before it frosts the rest of the piece. So in a word - no. - borosilicate will not contain HF or even F2 gas safely or for long. We have containers made of
polyethylene and containers made of PTFE, and even double-gloved and covered with barrier cream, i HATE to work with the stuff.
As far as where you can get it, should you be foolish/invincible enough to wan t it, you might look for a friendly scientific glassblower, or try to convince a chemical supplier that
you are a glassblower working with boro, claiming to be a bongmaker might work. Wikipedia also claims that some car wheel cleaning sprays contain HF, but at what
concentration and with what other chemicals it doesn't mention.
There's an interesting (to me) article on Theodore Grey's Periodic Table Table Flourine Page (http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/009/index.s7.html) about the
sheer difficulty involved in storing F2 in any kind of silicon glass, it can be done, but really, don't bother.
*laughs* Wikipedia's HF page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid) has this gem:

"A concern for emergency services is the theft of drums of hydrofluoric acid, possibly after being mistaken for hydrochloric acid which has uses in the preparation of all kinds of
substances, including in the clandestine production of drugs such as methamphetamines."
Good god, that'd be a lab accident I'd pay handsomely to see (on tape...)
Flourine is fascinating stuff, but not anything i'd voluntarily work with/expose myself to.

Is there any chance that I could find some place to buy SbF5? Seems like a stretch, but stranger things have happened, and you could probably buy just about anything online.
If not, I am thinking about just containing all of the reactions in the container that the HF comes in. It can obviously resist HF, so it seems like it would work. Is there any
fluorine compound that is reactive enough to use for any synthesis but will not kill you if you look at it funny?
Chemdabbler October 26th, 2007, 09:12 PM

"If not, I am thinking about just containing all of the reactions in the container that the HF comes in. It can obviously resist HF, so it seems like it would work."
This logic strikes me as dangerously faulty... i mean, what if the reaction produces gas or heat beyond the ability of the container to contain, or produces something that can
degrade, dissolve or penetrate it? It's your life, but before you start mixing, i'd suggest looking long and hard at the various and nasty possible consequences of contaminating
yourself with any reactive flourine compound.
AcMav October 27th, 2007, 07:16 PM

So on your behalf Panzer I decided to do a search and see if I could perhaps find a dealer of Antimony Pentaflouride in the world, And low and behold there are 5, 2 of which
are in Germany, 1 in China, 1 in Belgium and 1 in the United States. Unless you happen to be a multimillionaire I doubt you're going to be able to afford the stuff because the
United States supplier is only willing to contact a legitimate company and deal with amounts in units of Kilograms or Tons.
I'd say this is a lost cause and just give it up.
Incase you want to do some more searching of your own, the CAS number for Antimony Pentaflouride is 7783-70-2.
panzerkampfwagen October 28th, 2007, 12:23 AM

Thanks, AcMav. Unfortunately, I regret to inform you that I am not a millionaire or a company (though if I could find someone to sell HSbF5 to...). I am not surprised that half
of them (fine, 2/5) are in Germany. They seem to make everything of quality now.
I had not thought of the heat of the reaction exceeding the max temp of the origional container, but then again, that's why I posted here before running off and doing
something stupid (potentially, but why take the risk?). Platinum is a little too expensive, but it would work. Then again, so would solid helium, but that's not even remotely
feasible. I still think that Teflon would probably be the best bet, though its heat resistance isn't particularly good. Does anyone happen to know whether Sb has any chance of
replacing Ca in a single replacement? I would not expect that it would, but it would make for an incredibly convenient reaction, completely skipping over the undesirable
gaseous fluorine.
Maybe if I put the Sb in a gigantic tub of toothpaste and left it in an iron furnace and cryo froze myself for a few centuries, it may make SbF5, though I doubt it (particularly
the cryo part).
Are there any other convenient (common, cheap, and not "one strike, you're out") fluorine compounds? I've been searching through my secret database (Wikipedia), but none
of them seem particularly "user-friendly." With any luck, I may be able to use some of the electronic spray duster that I have piling up. It is, after all, pentafluoride and not
particularly dangerous (for fluorine). C-F bonds should not be too hard to break, but then we go again with the fluorine gas. I'll try to find a solvent that it will dissolve in so
that maybe the duster can be reacted directly.
Also, does anyone know anything about AlF3? I can't find much, but since
Al2O3 forms a passivation layer, I would hope that AlF3 would too. That would be the ideal, since aluminum conducts heat rather well, so I could dissipate the heat into
something else (sand?), and if my theory holds true, it should form a solid, nonporous, and inert passivation layer that will contain the fluorine. Give it a Teflon bottom and skirt
(on the inside, of course) and it will be able to withstand the HSbF5. It should also be easy to rig up an HF drip that could add the HF to the SbF5 without my opening the
container (big plus), and it should control the reaction rate. Actually, an aluminum-coated (is this possible?) Buchner flask would be ideal, since I could pump out any residual
fluorine gas that would make the opening of the container "eventfull." I could add a one-way valve on the top to let air in so I don't accidentially vaporize the product(s?).
Bert October 28th, 2007, 12:25 PM

Are there any other convenient (common, cheap, and not "one strike, you're out") fluorine compounds? I've been searching through my secret database (Wikipedia), but none
of them seem particularly "user-friendly." ?).
Sigh. Calcium fluoride (fluorite, fluorospar) is easily available. There are hundreds of listing on eBay for it, plus every rock shop I've ever been in has it. If 17th century man
could use it to make hydrofluoric acid with sulfuric acid, even a kid relying on Wikipedia as his primary source could figure it out. With a little more gumption, he could also
figure out electrolytic production of Fluorine gas and kill himself. Of course, the equipment and materials would likely cost more than his allowance...
With any luck, I may be able to use some of the electronic spray duster that I have piling up...... C-F bonds should not be too hard to break
You don't have any idea why that bit is funny, do you?
Learn to walk (or even crawl) before trying to run. Go get a HANDS ON grounding in basic chemical knowledge, lab equipment and techniques, rather than sitting at your
computer speculating without sufficient background or any attempt at an experiment.
Or go to TOTSE where it's the style.
In the meantime, I suggest this thread be locked.
nbk2000 October 28th, 2007, 03:29 PM

It'll stay open, but the OP is no more.
rightway October 31st, 2007, 11:01 PM

Interestingly, electronic spray duster could be used to produce HF (though not in a direct reaction to form SbF5).
C2H4F4+O2+heat (relatively little) --> 2HF+2HFC=O(carbon oxyfluoride)
Carbon oxyfluoride is very, very toxic (2-5ppm (OSHEA reg.)). Fortunately, it decomposes under water or when exposed to a hot surface. The MSDS I was reading said that a
hot surface may cause too fast of a decomposition and cause a small, but rather toxic explosion. I would think that collecting it over (really in) water would be effective.
Carbon oxyfluoride does not have defined products of decomposition; every time is like a mystery box, you never know what you might get. More HF may be produced, but
there is no way to tell until someone tries it. Carbon oxyfluoride is rather corrosive, though (dangerous in every way but flammability). Therefore, for the sake of safety, I
would definitely not use glass or steel containers at any point when dealing with Carbon oxyfluoride (not to mention the HF). If it is collected over water, whatever gaseous
products are produced should probably be vented as quickly as possible.
Since the decomposition is not exact, I could not guarantee the purity of the HF, but if purity is essential, I am sure that there is a way to remove whatever impurities there
are. Otherwise, it should not matter too much. If you are trying the synth. for HSbF5 (just the SbF5 to HSbF5 part) that panzer proposed, the water must be removed from the
equation, which would unfortunately make the collection of the products much more complicated and dangerous.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Explosive thermite? - Need some helps
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truonggiang_male90 October 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 1 : 4 5 P M

I've watched a clip on Y o u t u b e a b o u t t h e d e m o nstation of a very powerful explosive. they said that is was Cr2O3 (the green
powder) and Fe2O3 (the dark powder), was Al used? any one can help me? thank s
this is the lin k to the clip:http://youtube.com /watch?v=5n2FI9b6 FNc
http://img.youtube.com /vi/5n2FI9b6FNc/default.jpg
--------------
ex1ge October 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 3 : 1 5 P M

"Oh, by the way, it's totally fake. Technically, though, nothing I wrote is untrue, just misleading.
I never actually ignited the po wder shown, but it does indeed release a lot of energy when ignited. It is thermite - iron oxide
and chrom ium oxide thermite. The explosive is indeed used by terrorists. It's am monium nitrate, with a sm all am o u n t o f
nitroglycerin to sensitize it, wh ich was then shot with a rifle. Pure AN is very, very difficult to detonate.
A little careful editing puts tog ether a video of a fuse burning an d g o i n g o u t , a n d a n o t h e r v i d e o o f t h e e x p l o s i v e i n s i d e t h e b o x

bein g detonated with a rifle."
Here is your answer.
hatal October 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 3 : 3 0 P M

Are you fam iliar with the abbrevation BS?
Hinckleyforpresident October 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 4 : 1 2 P M

Read the description. It clearly states that it is not thermite, but rather am m o n i u m nitrate/nitroglycerin. It was sort of a joke
video i think, seeing if people will believe it and get excited about a fake explosive. Seem s like it worked :p.
The_Duke October 26th , 2 0 0 7 , 0 5 : 4 9 P M

This thread is going nowhere.
Locked...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > H2O2-free AP
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UnderConstruction November 7th, 2007, 09:03 PM

I first started to wonder about this trying to balance the acetone and hydrogen peroxide reaction: C3H6O+H2O2--->C9H18O6+X. In that reaction a catalyst (sulphuric acid) is
necessary.
I saw that the extra compound would be removed under the new formula 3C3H6O+O3--->C9H18O6, (the hydrogen peroxide being substituted for ozone), and the catalyst
could theoretically be removed do to the incredible reactivity of ozone.
Ozone generators are available for therapeutic purposes (some people apparently bathe themselves in a body-encasement filled with ozone gas or ozonated water...), even in
the form of "bubblers" that send the ozone into water or oil (some people like to drink/cook with it also, god knows why). If acetone was replaced for the water/oil is it even
theoretically possible that such a reaction could occur? Mind you that I'm not even an amateur chemist, and not suicidal enough to attempt this hit-or-miss-or-miss-&-die
experiment on a hunch (and spending several hundred dollars on the equipment necessary to do so).
Thank you for any information you can give me on this subject.

I've read this idea posted by somebody here before, but if your the one to get it to work, you get credit!
I think you could safely test this on a very small scale with a remote "bubbler" or something. It would probably need to be cooled pretty well though.

I UTFSE it before I posted, but I didn't any resemblant topic :o
I don't see any good reason why it shouldn't work, basing that on... nothing, I guess. But the logic is there, so that's what I'm counting on. Sadly, I don't have $300 to dish out
on an ozone source, but even that could theoretically change at any time.
I'm convinced that it will work though, if the resources are available
megalomania November 7th, 2007, 11:12 PM

The mechanisms for the formation of acetone peroxides (TATP and DADP) goes through several intermediate compounds, and in fact can continue to create higher ring
structures. It is not a simple 1 + 1 reaction with a direct combination of the reactants to the final products. Ozone reacts in a completly different way than hydrogen peroxide,
and I strongly doubt it could form the necessary peroxide structure. It would make something, but that does not mean it will make acetone peroxide.
I applaud your forward thinking, but what science are you basing your hypothesis on? I recommend brushing up on a little peroxide chemistry. I read about the complex
formation of acetone peroxides in a book about peroxide chemistry some years ago, but I can't remember the title.
Don't take my word for it though, the proof is in the pudding, that is to say experimentation is the ONLY way to proceed because all the theorizing in the world is utterly useless
until someone does an experiment.

Maybe you should look up how to make your own ozone generator from a salvaged high voltage source (microwave transformer, neon sign transformer, etc...). I know
nothing about it, but apparently passing air through a high voltage arc creates ozone.
I'm planning on making a Marx generator sometime in the near future, so maybe I'll do it.
Beamier Scarab November 10th, 2007, 01:09 AM

One of the possible generators to make your ozone is the corona discharge ozone generator; it can be made using the following methodGet a glass tube that is about 1/4 inch
in diameter.
Put aluminum foil on the outside of the tube, for the middle half of its length.
Put a very thin metal wire, no insulation, inside the tube.
One end of the wire is inside the part of the tube with the foil.
The other end of the wire comes out the back end of tube.
Get a fish-tank air-pump, and connect it with a rubber hose to the glass tube to push air through the tube.
The wire will need to be poked through the wall of the rubber hose to get outside where you can connect to it.
Get an AC high voltage supply, limited to 1 milliamp by a large resistor inside.
Connect one high voltage lead to the wire inside and the other to the foil outside.
We want a very small buzzing sound from the glass tube to be heard. This is high-voltage corona discharge in air.
The air being forced out of the open end of the tube should have a fair concentration of ozone in it.
It would be beneficial to dry the air before it goes into the glass tube to help eliminate the formation of nitrogen oxide. (The use of a hair dryer should be adequate)
If you wanted to just buy one, you dont have to spend that $300, this spa ozonator costs just over $100.
http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Eclipse-Solid-State-CD-Ozonator-Kit-110V-P689C287.aspx
DONMAN November 10th, 2007, 09:00 PM

If you had an electric welding torch, you could some how encase that in a chamber and utilize the ozone, as stated above.

thanks for everybody's comments. The method Beamie Scarab sent me sounds pretty cool, more fun than buying it and a lot cheaper.:cool:
Also, I know that this has been discussed numerous times before, but is it possible to generate nitric acid from this method? Ozone generators supplied with elemental air (as
opposed to chemically pure O2) create it as an unwanted by-product, any chance that this would occur along with the NO?:confused:
gaussincarnate November 13th, 2007, 09:27 PM

If you do not want to just jump into making an ozone generator,
amazing1.com has the plans for them, sometimes for free, sometimes for a small fee (<$5). I am not attempting to advertise anything; I personally do not like the company
that much for their actual products, but the plans and directions are legit.
As for your fear of creating NO, I would definitely try to use pure oxygen, just in case. You are playing with what might end up being a rather sensitive explosive compound,
one of the most reactive compounds in existance, a highly toxic and flammable liquid, and high-voltage electricity all at once. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

gauss - I believe that the bond energy of O2 is much less than that of N2 owing to the "double" bond of Oxygen and the "triple" bond of Nitrogen. Hence, as long as you didn't
exceed extremely insane voltages, you probably wouldn't have the energy to split N2 to form NO.
O2 has a bond energy of about 498kJ/mol while N2 has a bond energy of 945.33 kJ/mol. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what that translates to in actual volts.
The_Duke November 19th, 2007, 11:15 PM
According to PATR 2700 this will not work to form AP, just a bunch of useless gunk.
LibertyOrDeath November 20th, 2007, 07:06 AM

Here's something that's a bit off-topic but that's also related to non-standard(?) methods of making AP.
The Wikipedia article on AP has a reference called "Decomposition of Triacetone Triperoxide is an Entropic Explosion," but the only mention I could find of the authors (a bunch
of Israeli Jews led by Ehud Keinan) or their work is on these threads:
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=73037&highlight=Keinan#post73037 (post #6)

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=389&highlight=Keinan&page=2 (post #20)
The PDF of the article is here: http://www.technion.ac.il/~keinanj/pub/122.pdf
What I thought was interesting was their mention that TATP (which they label "1", as opposed to DADP, "2") can be made without any catalyst at all. From p. 1148 (emphasis
added):
Synthesis and Crystallization of 1 and 2. Since the first reported synthesis of 1 by Wolffenstein in 1895, various protocols for its preparation have been published, some of which
are rather unsafe. Interestingly, Wolffenstein himself did not ascribe the explosiveness of 1 to the material itself but rather to traces of ether used for the workup. His
uncatalyzed synthesis involved keeping a mixture of acetone (11.6 g) and hydrogen peroxide (50%, 13.6 g) for 4 weeks at room temperature and collecting the resultant
precipitate (11.9 g, 26.8%) by filtration followed by recrystallization from ether. The acid-catalyzed synthesis was first described in 1959 by Millas, who slowly added acetone
(0.2 mol) at 0 C to a cold mixture of hydrogen peroxide (50%, 0.2 mol) and sulfuric acid, kept the mixture at 0 C for 3 h, and then extracted it with pentane. This
procedure, which uses large quantities of sulfuric acid, represents a fast route to 1, but it is rather unsafe, as reported by Oxley.
The authors' chosen method of making TATP not only uses concentrated sulfuric (which I understand is common in technical literature) but allows the solution to sit at room
temperature:
We found that large quantities of 1 may be prepared safely with minimal amounts of sulfuric acid. For example, acetone (5.6 g, 0.1 mol) was mixed with hydrogen peroxide
(30%, 0.1 mol). Concentrated sulfuric acid (5 drops) was added at 0 C, and the mixture was kept at room temperature for 24 h. The resultant precipitate was collected by
filtration with suction and air-dried to afford 1 (4.7 g, 65%) in the form of white crystals. This procedure was scaled up to produce kilogram quantities of 1 :eek:. Large single
crystals of 1 for X-ray crystallographic studies were obtained by slow sublimation in a closed flask at room temperature.
Based on everything I've read, particularly about temperature issues, I would expect the above method to form a lot of the dimer form of AP. But they have a completely
different synthesis for DADP:
Compound 1, which is obtained by precipitation from the above-described reaction between acetone and hydrogen peroxide, is a kinetic product, while 2 is the thermodynamic
product. Accordingly, one way to prepare 2 is by acid-catalyzed isomerization of 1 in organic solvents. Thus, dissolving 1 in either chloroform or dichloromethane with a catalytic
amount of p-toluenesulfonic acid and keeping the solution at room temperature for 1 week afforded pure 2, which was then collected and recrystallized from hot methanol. An
alternative procedure involved slow addition of hydrogen peroxide (30%) to a cold (-5 C) stirred mixture of acetone and catalytic amounts of methanesulfonic acid in
dichloromethane. After the mixture was stirred at -5 C for an additional 30 min, it was cooled to -20 C, the organic layer was separated and dried over molecular sieves, the
solvent was removed under reduced pressure, and the resultant crude 2 was recrystallized from hot methanol.
More on their syntheses is given on p. 1158.
I'm not particularly interested in AP as a primary myself except as a possible last resort, but I thought this article was interesting because it seems to go against the
conventional wisdom about AP.

The reaction likely does prepare a large quantity of DADP (~5% IIRC), but since they used sublimation to purify their crystals for the X-ray diff a contamination would not
matter. They likely went with a cheap and fast route (important for some labs) rather than a tedious and lengthy preparation AFTER trying out the other routes and comparing
their GC, MS, and NMR results. Well, GC probably would not work for acetone peroxide, but NMR would be fine.
The_Duke November 20th, 2007, 05:36 PM

His uncatalyzed synthesis involved keeping a mixture of acetone (11.6 g) and hydrogen peroxide (50%, 13.6 g) for 4 weeks at room temperature and collecting the resultant
precipitate (11.9 g, 26.8%) by filtration followed by recrystallization from ether.
Wolffenstein actually did use an acid catalyst, IICR phosphoric acid. Check PATR 2700 for more info if you like.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Micro-Explosions W hen Hitting Two
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Positron Novem ber 11th, 2007, 06:42 PM

Hi All,
I was recently at a very large departm ent store (WM) here in The States with a few friends, and I h eard loud cracking noises
coming from one of the aisles. No big deal I though, it's just m y weird friends hitting hamm ers tog ether for fun :rolleyes:. So
t h e n o i s e k e e p s h a p p e n i n g f o r a while, then one of m y friends com es running around the corner telling me that I've GOT to
come see this.
So, m y friend picks two norm a l - l o o k i n g s l e d g e h a m m e r s o f f t h e s h e l f , a n d s m a c k s t h e m together pretty hard head to head.
Nothing really happens, other than the nice "TING!!!!" noise that is made when two ham mers contact each other.
He tries a couple m ore tim es, hitting them together pretty dam n hard, until a much louder and sharper "C RACK" was emitted,
complete with a puff of sm oke, acrid sm ell, and tiny burn spot on the ham mer!! The noise was quite loud; about lik e a coup le
of toy "caps" going off.
The micro-explosions were hard to repeat, though we could mak e t h e m h a p p e n o n e o u t o f every three or four hits.
They were 2 or 3 pound sledges if I had to gue ss. W o o d e n h a n d l e . I c a n 't remem ber m uch m o r e a b o u t t h e m , b u t I ' l l t a k e a
closer look when I'm there next.
W hat do ya'll think?
Thermiteisfun Novem ber 11th, 2007, 08:05 PM

It sounds to me like you were forcing the m e t a l t o o x i d i z e b y s h o c k .
nbk2000 Novem ber 11th, 2007, 09:17 PM

W a s t h e r e a p a i n t c o a t i n g o n t h e f a c e s o f t h e s l e d g e h e a d s ? P e r h a p s t h e p r e s s u r e o f b e i n g c o m pressed was reactin g
components in the paint with the oxide in the metal.
hereno Novem ber 11th, 2007, 11:36 PM

If it has a coating of oil, its possibly a dieseling effect.
Barnacles Novem ber 11th, 2007, 11:50 PM

Mythbusters did som ething on this "proving" that hamm ers cannot explode via th is m e t h o d . A l t h o u g h I d i d s e e o n e thing
wrong with th eir m ethod. See when the y s m a s h e d t h e h a m mers together they used two rigid pieces of metals in place of
h u m an arms for swinging.
I think these arms didnt allow certain types of vibrations to occur that would norm ally happen with hum an a rm s doing the wo rk.
Maybe the elasticity of the hum an arm causes/allows some sort of resonance frequency effect that the non-flexing ,
n o n b e n d i n g m etallic arms would/could negate.
jetz Novem ber 12th, 2007, 02:51 AM

I v e h e a r d o f s o m e c h e a p C h i n e s e h a m m ers being coated with NC to protect them during transport and when hit to together
they crack from the NC going off.
Positron Novem ber 12th, 2007, 10:20 PM

There is a "m inor detail" that I forgot to m e n t i o n . Y e s , t h e r e i s a c o a t i n g o n t h e h a m m er faces. It's clear, maybe a bit
yellowish. Very thin. Sorry for not m entioning this the first tim e a r o u n d .
Sounds like NC lacquer could be the culprit!!
Anyhow, Shadow3910, this is an entirely different phenomenon than what the Mythbusters were dealing with. They were trying
to shatter the steel through physical m eans. What I witnessed involved a chem ical reaction (forces within the m olecule), as
evidenced by the sm o k e a n d b u r n s p o t . I t h i n k the Mythbusters had the right idea with wh at they were tryin g to do, as elasticity
in the system (hum an arm & body) would serve to dampen the m echanical resonances, and reduce the tim e - a v e r a g e d i n t e r n a l
forces across the steel. In the end, they were g oing for worst-case to bust the ham mers. End O ff-T opic.
ChippedHammer Novem ber 13th, 2007, 02:45 AM

Ive heard of this before, don't know where but som e o n e m e n t i o n e d t h a t o n s o m e c h e a p h a m m ers the NC is poorly applied
and flakes off.
Cheap pretty m uch free source of NC :)
Cobalt.45 Novem ber 13th, 2007, 07:51 AM

H a m mer faces can and will shatter if struck together with enough force.
Not all hamm ers, not all the time- just when yo u least expect it.
I suspect that there's a flaw in the forging that causes it (duh) but it dam n sure o ccurs.
I'm all for the NC theory for the phenom ena that Positron describes.
Double-Oh-Zero Novem ber 13th, 2007, 08:38 AM

I tried this at a shop here in SA. It took m e a couple of tries but I also got som e s m o k e a n d a b u r n t s p o t o n t h e h a m m ers.
Hm m , i t d o e s l o o k l i k e N C .
H a m m e r s h a ve been known to shatter. My dad, (who is a carpenter by trade) and I were putting a desk together ab out a week
ago and as he hit the nail with a ham mer, It split into six pieces.
hatal Novem ber 13th, 2007, 12:36 PM

Most likely anything made from m artensite (rather the austenite) would shatter if driven with enough force. I would certainly
believe that the chinese produced shitty steel for ham m ers by annealing it too quickly or putting too m uch carbon in it. But
explosion... wow
Jacks Complete Novem ber 19th, 2007, 07:35 PM

That's a cheap-ass ham mer! The face should be hard, and the rest tough and softer.
The varnish is what is exploding. It's (probably) a cheap NC lacq u e r , a n d t h e e n t i r e c h e a p h a m m er was probably dipped or
spra yed in it prior to shipping to coat the wood for life and the steel of shipping. Or it could be the oil, as som e o n e e l s e s a i d ,
which is sim ply exploding under the pressure. 'm sure the OP can tell the differen ce if he looks closely.
This only works with a cheap hamm er, and you will get faster results with a ball-pein against a flat face. Not good fo r the
h a m mers, th o u g h .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Vacuum effect from Projectile
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Felixuxo Novem ber 28th, 2007, 10:26 AM

I have been asked if anyone can help with this issue and wondered if anyone has any bright ideas in here . There is a problem
with ignition system s in the back of projectiles caused by the vacuum effect left in its wake This is causing ignition systems to
f a i l a s h o t g a s e s a r e d r a w n f r o m t h e d e l a y e l e m e n t s i n t h e b a s e of the u n i t . C a n a n y o n e s h e d l i g h t on m y problem ?
:con f u s e d :
Bert Novem ber 29th, 2007, 02:28 AM

Go to a solid/solid reaction (gasless) delay train. Get a copy of Hardt's Pyrotechnics for inform ation on more or less current
chemistry and techniques. Gasless delays are pretty comm o n , a s i t i s u n d e s i r a b l e t o h a v e a d e l a y e l e m ent raise the internal
pressure of an artillery shell in flight.
Alternatively, a system that leaves an adhering slag to protect the reaction zone and hold the heat in m ight serve. Are you
tryin g to use black powder as the delay elem ent? BP won't burn in a vacu um...
Felixuxo Novem ber 29th, 2007, 05:03 AM

T h a n k y o u , B e r t . A T u n g s t e n b a s e d g a sless system I th ink is the way to go, which we are producing already. But there are
issues with ease of ig nition. So will go with incremental pressings and T40 BP at the end of the delay.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > ANL-Ascorbate
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DONMAN January 8th, 2008, 10:27 PM

I was reading about the KNO3 + Ascorbic acid a nd it gave m e the idea to replace the KNO3 with a bit strong er oxidizer... I
wasn't sure how the ratio would go so I just found the oxygen balance of the Ascorbic acid. Turns o ut its like -90% and we all
know that NH4NO3 is around 20% so that gives us som ething like 4.5 m oles AN to 1 m ole Vitam in C. That works ou t to be
around 2.018 g (NH3NO3/Ascorbic acid). Is this correct???
S o m e p o s s i b le concerts with the com pound would be...
Form ation of nitric acid as AN is very hydrophilic

Reactions with m etals as a result...
I h a v e m a d e a small amount but I think that m y AN has got hydrated dude to the fact there is a lot of m oisture in the air, a s it
is ra ining...
So I really haven't go t to test the form ula yet... Please tell m e if m y work is correct and/or are m y concerns realistic.
I a m g o i n g t o d o s o m e research soon once it stops rain ing :D
Until then can any one provide any insight ???
Masonjar Chemist January 8th, 2008, 11:46 PM

(NH3NO3/Ascorbic acid).
It's NH4NO 3 :), also I think you will have a hard time igniting the mixture even if it is dry. Some KNSU may get it going but I
have my doubts. If you are looking for a crim son powd er substitute you can stop now, but if you are looking for a rocket
propellant you m ay want to add som e a l u m inum powder to sensitize it. I would be very im pressed if you are able to ignite this
m ixture at all; am m o nium nitrate is a stubborn oxidizer especially in pyrotechnics.
BTW , where did the L in ANL Ascorbate come from ? Am I m i s s i n g s o m eth ing?

Ascorbic acid is also known as L-ascorbate. I noticed when I tried to get a sam ple to burn, it first m elted.... Then fizzled. So I
a m going to try to m elt a sm all quantity into a solid. Th e Vitam in C melts around 190-192 so it will be tricky :/. I if it works it
m ay dehydrate the NH4NO 3 and then keep it from re-hydrating; possibly sensitizing the whole mix. I think there is potential
h e r e . I a m not lookin g for any crim son powder by any m eans but, it would be nice if I could get a clean crisp burn.
Curiosity, is the m oth er of invention.
DONMAN January 13th , 2008, 04:37 AM

I m elted it together and I was left with a blood red solid that was relative ly incombustible. I wouldnt recom mend trying this
e x p e r i m ent as its a waist of m aterials.
:(
Although, I am curios as to why its red. Possibly the start of the dehydration of th e L-ascorbate?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > R ailway Torpedos & Boyhood Memories.
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Yafmot January 20th , 2008, 05:52 AM

I've looked everywhere, and I just can't seem to find anything on railroad torpedos. These were some of m y favorite toys back
w h e n . M y f i e n d s a n d I u s e d t o s n a g ' e m off of cabooses when they were parked on sidings, and occasionally from locomotives.
A friend of m ine who's an engineer for Union Pacific says they were recalled after 9-11, but he's be en full of shit before.
S o m etime I've got to check it out firsthand.
for those of you who don't know, a raliroad torpedo is a small piece of im pact sensitive ex plosive about 1 1/2" long X 3/4" wide
X 3/8" thick which is wrapped in Kraft p aper, followed by what is apparently the sam e kind of red, treated paper as is used for
high way flares. A strip of lead or soft a lum inum about 5 " long & 3/8" wide ran between the layers of paper and protruded about
2" out of either side. This was to fasten it onto the "T" section of the rail securely enough that the vibration s from the
approaching train wouldn't knock it off the track. This is a signal to stop the train and, yes, it could be heard over a locomotive.
W e'd pull the m etal strip out (to avoid shrapnel), place it on the sidewalk, and drop a nice, big river rock about the size of a
bowling ball on it. The report was truly satisfying, with about 3 or 4 times the power of an M-80 and m uch m ore brisant. Or we'd
open the thing up and tap the charge lightly with a ham mer to b reak it up into sm a l l e r c h u n k s . T h e s e c o u l d b e t a p e d t o t h e
e n d o f a b a t , a n d t h e n stuffed into the pavem ent to set it off. This was accom plished to m a x i m u m effect at som e p l a c e l i k e t h e
Taco Bell down the street. Guaranteed to spew half-m asticated burrito fragments all over.
There were a couple of other types of torpedo we would encounter. One was with a square charge about the s a m e thickness but
with the edges beveled on two sides in the direction the rail. I guess to g et a little extra com pression from the wheel. It was
wrapped in the sam e type of paper, but with a spring steel arran gement that, when spread, described the shape of the rail;
rather m ore of a clam ping effect. The com p l o o k e d a n d a c t e d a b o u t t h e s a m e.
In addition to the devices listed above, we'd occasionally run across some real an tiques: Metal or cardboard tubes with a mix
that was a dark, rusty brown so it probably was Arm strong's or a sim i l a r m i x c o n t a i n i n g R e d P h o s p h o r u s . W e o p e n e d o n e u p &
d u m p e d i t o u t a n d m y f r i e n d p i c k e d u p a s m all pinch and began rubbing it between his fingertips. POW! It blistered his fingers
and slapped the shit out of his hand. Most of these were painted silver, a couple blue. They had lead strips for fastening onto
the track. W A T C H O U T I F Y O U RU N ACR OSS O NE O F THESE!
W hat I'm really looking for is the formula for the newer ones. It's m uch the sam e color as the flare com p, a light yellow. The
bind er could be anything from Dextrin to Elm er's glue. I'm guessing It's a Chlorate/Perchlorate & Sulfur mix, since there was a
strong Sulfur smell whenever we banged it or burned it (it burned like a match head). I doubt if there was any Sb2S3 in it,
otherwise m y innards would have gotten sick.
I've run way long here, even for starting a thread. Anybody got any info on this com p?
Oh yeah, and I think there wa s some kind of grit in the mix for friction. Silica, m a y b e ?
deformedreality January 29th , 2008, 04:54 AM

Through very extensive searching this is the best I could find.
http://www.textfiles.com /hum o r / b o e . h u m
Railway torpedoes contained a m ixture of potassium chlorate, sulphur, sand,
bind er and a neutralizer.
Look at the second half of this page
http://tinyurl.com/3767rp
a n d o f c o u r s e , s o m ething from our very own forum about it.

http://tinyurl.com/2qfw6q
T h e f u s e e e m i x g e n e rally contains Sulfur. Guess that's a reson they'd use perchlorate rather than chlorate... See the
perchlorate ground water contam ination suit against Olin for further confirmation that they use perchlorate.
T h e c o m m ercial railro ad torpedo went the way of the dodo shortly after 9/11. Not hard to reproduce with chlorate and Antimo ny
sulfide though.
Bert January 29th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 8 : 2 7 P M

Through very extensive searching this is the best I could find.
None of those links are working for m e...
deformedreality January 29th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 9 : 1 4 P M

I used tiny url to m ake the lin ks smaller. For som e reason this forum kept shortening the url links significa ntly and replacing
half of the link with "...."
The original com position contained gravel which was later replaced with sand due to too many people getting injured when the
torpedoes were detonated.
So from the looks of it, the average composition involves:

Potassium Perchlorate, antim ony sulfide, sulfur, possibly sand, and som e form of binder. I cant seem to find the exact ratio s
anywhere though.
Yafmot February 10th, 2008, 03:01 AM

Thanks, guys. This is pretty m uch what I suspe cted. I've been am u s i n g m yself of late with 60/40 KClO 3 & Sulfur, respectively,
a l o n g with some Elm er's Glue-all and a few drops of water for a binder, som e 6 0 m e s h s a n d f o r s e n s i t i z i n g , a n d s o m e 6 0
m e s h T i t a n i u m s p o n g e f o r s o m e great visual effects. Then I line up som e . 1 7 7 p e l l e t s o n a f o a m b o a r d , a s s e n d u p , a n d g l o b
a little wad of the mix into the cavity.
After they dry, I shoot 'em into the fireplace, getting a sharp report and a great spray of incandescent Ti. Great fun, if you're
a m used by that kind of thing. And aren't we all?
Next, I'm g o i n g t o l o a d s o m e hollow based .38 wadcutters backward with a squib load for propulsio n a n d a b i g g l o b o f m i x i n
the cavity, and shoot 'em from my .357. Should be pretty spectacular. I also m ay toss a little flash in the m ix, just to add to
the lighting effects and m ake sure all the Ti lights off.
Anybody thin k of anything else to do with this stuff? I've yet to try a full sized torpedo with it; should be fun. I also forgot to
s a y t h a t I ' v e b e e n p u tting in a sm all percentage of BiO3, as an extra oxidizer and possible burn rate catalyst. Do y'all think it's
doin g a n y g o o d , o r a m I just jacking off?
W ell, I tried it with som e flash thrown in and, if anything, it DEse nsitized the mix. Other th an that, it added a little white color
to the central flash. Guess all my Ti was already lighting off. Oh, well, as the old classroom 1 6 m m film s used to say, "Science
m arches on!"
Yafmot February 17th, 2008, 07:23 PM

S o m e pretty big grins here. I tried a batch using m ore Oxidizer, a m uch higher percentage of BiO3 , p l u s a c o u p l e o f g r a m s o f
3 micron Zirconium, in addition to the usual Ti sponge.
W O W ! It's hard to believe all this is com ing out of a din ky little .177 pellet. There's a fist-sized ball of flash at the im pact
poin t, a repo rt I would estimate at about ten Db louder than your average firecracker, and it scatte rs incandescent bits of Ti
about 8-10 feet in every direction. W hen I shoot it into the fireplace, there's a little cloud of orange Carbon sparks from the
soot being blasted loose and ignited. I was shooting som e of my earlier examples into some sheets of paper I had taped to a
heavy ceramic tile, to exam ine the blast pattern (opposite the inpact side, oddly enough), but whe n I hit it with the new stuff,
it'd usually just rip it to shreds.
Again, hard to believe I'm getting all that out of a little .177 pellet.
Charles Owlen Picket February 17th, 2008, 08:03 PM

T h e r e a r e s o m e very interesting responses one can get from altering the "fuel" from a flash com position. Typical was the 64 /
23/13 flash that Shim izu claim ed was the loudest thing he had worked with.
I h a v e h e a r d o f a n a l t e r a t i o n o f f u e l d o s o m e u n i q u e t h ings. W hen there was a great deal of discussion of Konski's

presentation re: flash in the 9 0's a lot of people wondered if the re was a way to a lter the report in terms of tone. The concept
was that if th e fuel would burn at a different rate, the re port would be altered by a change in the am o u n t o f g a s m o v e d a t a
certain speed. Since all the gases would not be m oved at once in any deflagation; it was possible that there was heated air
b e h i n d w a v e s o f g a s e s s p r e a d f r o m the exploding container [which yielded reports of various tonal qualities]. The other issue
was the density of the air itself; if som e t h i n g e x p l o d e d i n t h e s k y the air was both a different density and and temp .
W hat was experim ented with was the two fuels which were "rate-changers". The first was Boron (silicon was often substituted
due to cost; their spe ed was sim ilar). The result was a hot "slag", that stayed hot after the initial b urn. This m ateria l stayed
hot longer th a n a m e t a l f u e l . T h e o t h e r was rosin, which burned m uch cooler and faster than sim ilar sized metal fue l.
Reports from burning explosions are so subjective that it's very difficult to make any claim s. But the science of sound from
explosions was mostly substantiated from these variables. Air temp and density should play a part in tonal quality. The
burning itself if somewhat faster or slower in the depth of the blast should also play a part. This is not the sim plistic concept of
tone being altered by a com position per se' (sulfur m aking the tone rise of lower, etc) but of both external and internal burn
rate alteratio ns and sound reflectivity (in air) playing a role.
W hy was the 64/23/13 of Shimizu claimed to be so loud? W ell it's only opinion that the total variances usin g both Al & Sb2S3
were captured in that com position. yet when com pared to 70/30 in side b y side te sts Konski believed that the burn-rate
variances did indeed play a ro le IF the air were the sam e i n t h e t e s t s . ( T o k i d o , C h u e t a l . 1 9 9 6 E P P p p 1 9 6 - 2 0 2 )
(This was not in the film often sited that Konski did in '96, but a continuation of material from various sources.)

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Comparative study of OTC Acetone in AP Synthesis
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Rbick January 23rd, 2008, 11:13 AM

My goal in this was to determine what type of OTC acetone would work best in AP synthesis. The idea came about when Mega suggested someone test the yields on acetone
from various sources. To do this, I purchased five samples of acetone from several well-known sources. Before I go over those, a little on AP
AP is formed in an acid-catalyzed nucleophilic addition when 3 acetone molecules (when referring to AP, I will be referring to the trimer form) bond with 3 atoms of oxygen (the
oxygen being the nucleophile) in an aromatic ring structure with the carbon atoms in the ring bonded with 2 methyl groups. There are also dimer and open monomer forms, but
those are not what we are going for here, as they are more unstable than the trimer. The reason AP is so sensitive can be seen in its molecular structure, with the single O-O
bonds being very weak, making it sensitive to shock, friction, and heat. In acidic and relativley cool conditions, the trimer form is created more readily than the dimer and
monomer forms. Drawing of AP structure (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/AP.jpg)
You can see how this comes about by looking at the structure of acetone here (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/acetone.jpg)
Note the double C=O bond (which classifies acetone as a ketone)
The oxidizer used is Hydrogen Peroxide, or H2O2. When the catalyst (HCl or H2SO4) is added, the peroxide molecules donate one oxygen atom, resulting in a water byproduct.
Oxygen, being extremley electronegative, is attracted to the more partially positive charge (research polarity) of the carbon atom of the acetone molecule that is double
bonded with an oxygen. The double bond is broken, and the carbon atom now possesses two single covalent bonds with oxygen atoms. This can be seen in the equation:
3H2O2 + 3C3H6O ---> C9H18O6 + 3H2O
A common misconception is that AP decomposes into CO2 and H2O. This is however apparently wrong. A paper posted HERE (http://www.technion.ac.il/~keinanj/pub/
122.pdf) states that most byproducts are acetone and ozone. My assumption is that when AP is mixed with an oxidizer like AN, these byproducts then decompose into CO2 and
H2O, although I am not certain. Read the article for more details.
Now for my test results:
I collected acetone from the following sources, listed in no particular order. The manufacturer of the acetone is placed next to the supplier along with the price per 1 liter.
Ace Hardware : ACE, $5.99

K-Mart : EZ, $5.99
Fleet Farm, Lowes, and Home Depot: Klean Strip, $4.49
Menards : Sunnyside, $4.98
Walgreens : Nail Polish Remover, N/A
Online Chem Supplier: Reagent grade, $3.75 per 30mL
The following quantities were used:
25mL Acetone
12.8mL 35% Hydrogen Peroxide acs/reagent grade(calculated to have same amount as in megas synthesis)
4mL 31.45% HCl
Temps:
All reactants were measured carefully and put into separate vessels prior to mixing. Care was taken to ensure the samples never mixed or came in contact with each other. All
peroxide was cooled to 7* C. All acetone was cooled to 10* C. HCl was kept at room temp.
Reactants were mixed first without catalyst and temperature change was recorded. I assume the intensity of the temperature change will reflect somewhat the level of
reactivity. HCl was added and progress was checked at 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, and 12 hours. Reaction was complete by 12 hours and crystals were filtered. Other
measurements taken can be seen down below.
EZ:
Temperature increased to 14*C
Density: .80g/mL
pH: 6
Final yield: 7.2g
Crystals were large in size compared to other samples, as large as 1cm long
Sunnyside:
Temperature increased to 28*C, did second test and it rose to 20*C
Density: .80g/mL
Final yield: 7.2g
pH: 6
Crystals finest of all OTC acetone products
ACE:
Temperature increase to 15*C
Density: .81g/mL
Final Yield: 7g
pH: 7
Klean Strip:
Density: .81g/mL
Final yield: 7.2g
pH: 6
Nail Polish Remover:

Density: .9g/mL
Final yield: 5.6g
pH: 7
Had largest crystals out of all samples, as large as 1.5cm in length
Reagent:
Density: .79g/mL
Final yield: 7.4g
pH: 6
Crystals were very fine and smooth
Over the first 3 hours after adding the HCl, I monitored the speed of the reactions. Im assuming that the speed of the reactions reflects the amount of impurities in the sample.
The slower the reaction, I assume that would mean more impurities. The density measurements should also reflect the level of impurities. Pictures can be seen through the
below links:
1 hour: 1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/fridgeleft1h.jpg) and 2 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/
fridgeright1h.jpg)
2 hours 1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/fridgelefth2.jpg) and 2 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/
fridgerighth2.jpg)
3 hours 1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/left3h.jpg) and 2 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/right3h.jpg)
12 hours 1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/12hleft.jpg) and 2 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Experiment/
12hright.jpg)
The speeds of reactions went as follows fastest to slowest: Reagent, Sunnyside, Klean Strip, ACE, EZ, Polish Remover.
Conclusion: There was almost no difference in the final yields of the OTC acetone products. Aside from of course the polish remover, which was expected to have a low yield. I
am suprised that I was able to get 5.6g out of it though. However, one has to consider the amount of impurities, the temp change, speed of reaction and quality of the
product. Apologies for not having access to a microscope, but the sunnyside product looked by far the best, with finer, smoother looking crystals. So in conclusion, I would go
with the sunnyside brand acetone found at Menards. It reacted faster, more intensely, had a good density, and had a better end product than the other OTC samples. It is
interesting that the better performing samples were the less expensive ones. Although the yields were close across the board, you can make an educated guess about the
impurities from the density. For example, the ACE product had .02 g/mL more mass than the reagent. Multiply .02 by 25, since we used 25mL of acetone. .02 (25) = .5g. So
there is a potential .5g of impurities in the yield.
I hope this little study was helpful to people. Any critiques, corrections, or any comments would be great. Again I apologize for having a lack of proper lab equpiment such as a
microscope. Im working on that as we speak. But at least I have a reliable scale and thermometer. Enjoy!
Oh, and also: I now have 40+ g of AP lying around. I need something fun to do with it...
Hinckleyforpresident January 23rd, 2008, 04:09 PM

Excellent work Rbick.
Was your HCl source muriatic acid? If so, what brand was it? Perhaps this study could be completed by trying out different HCl sources, and later maybe trying out different
sulfuric acid sources to get a comparison. Perhaps then the Hydrochloric vs. Sulfuric debate could be ended.
Rbick January 23rd, 2008, 05:45 PM

The HCl was muriatic acid, sold in 1 gallon amounts for something like 3 dollars. I'll have to get back with you on the name of the manufacturer, but I also saw muriatic acid
sold from the same company as the acetone at menards: Sunnyside. They sold HCl of the same concentration (31%) in 1 gallon and 1/4 gallon amounts. The 1/4 gallon was
something like $1.50. I would have gotten the smaller amount had I not bought the gallon from fleet farm first. That will last me a good year or two :D I actually had a gallon
of old 27% HCl from at least 5 years ago. There was about 200 mL left and I had to get rid of it, as it finally got too dilute to actually carry out its function.
Considering the quality of the sunnyside acetone, I would feel confident in buying their HCl as well.
Perhaps this study could be completed by trying out different HCl sources, and later maybe trying out different sulfuric acid sources to get a comparison
I thought about that. Maybe with different sources of hydrogen peroxide too? As for now, my funds are stretched, so I'll have to wait a bit before I carry out another
experiment. And I have about 2 gallons of acetone lying around I don't know what to do with. I'll use it as a fuel in a FAE or something.
Charles Owlen Picket January 24th, 2008, 11:34 AM

I think this may get back to the issue of really dry acetone. I was in a store and noticed that they sold two types of acetone; one of which was labeled "extra" or some such
shit. There is little doubt in my mind that some are not anhydrous and therefore a poor choice for most synthesis. The trick would be finding methods of determining purity
from the source. There MAY be one or two very large concerns which sell off heavy quantities for re-bottling.
.....pulling water out without distillation, finding contaminants, etc. - of this and other solvents had been something that was always in the back of my mind.
Rbick January 31st, 2008, 12:07 PM

Is this possible to do? I assume because of the volatility of acetone, it would be nearly impossible to separate it without a distillation apparatus. Perhaps a sealed container with
a desiccant. The sealed container would prevent acetone or the solvent from escaping to the air and the desiccant would absorb the water. Just throwing that out there. Any
other ideas?
megalomania January 31st, 2008, 11:38 PM

You might be able to pour the acetone over a molecular sieve and physically filter out undesired products, but I don't think anything would be as easy and convenient as
distillation. Considering glass distillation equipment is readily available to amateur scientists for the same price as a decent cordless drill I can unabashedly suggest you get the
right tool for the job. Saving money is all well and good, but you have to buy "something" to do chemistry.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Study on the Parameters Affecting Acetone Peroxide Synthetic Yield
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megalomania January 26th, 2008, 04:05 PM

Over the last several years I have pondered on how the yield of acetone peroxide could be optimized through a series of controlled experiments testing different
parameters encountered during the reaction. I dont suppose I will ever find the time to do the study in the manner I would prefer since it seems to be quite involved.
Therefore the least I can do is share my thoughts and ideas on how I would conduct such a study were I to sit down and do it. Rbicks thread on comparative yields of
acetone peroxide using different OTC sources of acetone (Comparative study of OTC Acetone in AP Synthesis - http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=7068)
has prompted me to share my knowledge in case some Forumites were interested in optimizing acetone peroxide syntheses themselves, but perhaps were not sure how to
begin testing.
I have never actually sat down and wrote out the full experimental conditions on which I would test acetone peroxide synthesis; this information is just my mental
musings. Def ining a detailed experimental methodology would require some library research I have not yet invested in this project since I dont consider this a priority
experiment on my list of things to do. I only kept notes on this experiment in my head, which is in dire need of defraging
The big question I want to answer with this study is to dispel some of the myths and misconceptions I hear about acetone peroxide. There is a significant difference between
the procedures used in professional literature, and the procedures used by amateur scientists. The amateur scientists provide copious information on the success of the reaction,
but their information is only anecdotal. Professional chemists have, to my knowledge, never published anything other than a procedure, with no mention as to how or why they
derived their methods. There exists a gap of information on this compound caused by professional chemists basically writing off acetone peroxide as a viable energetic material.
My study can actually be broken down into many subparts, a feature that may benefit some would be researchers. Some may have only the resources to test for specific
subset of the study, others may find the number of experiments required to be exhaustively thorough to be daunting (part of the reason I have not undertaken this task), and
so may choose to limit their efforts to a specific subtask. All reactions should ideally be conducted only with laboratory grade reagents using analytical instruments as precise as
possible. All experiments should be replicated a minimum of three trials to minimize experimental error, and to provide enough data for statistical analysis.
The conditions that affect acetone peroxide yield, and the reasons why I would test these factors, are as follows:
Determination of the effectiveness of acid catalyst on acetone peroxide yield: According to published literature sources (citation needed, may have been an anecdotal
reference) only mineral acids are suitable for preparing acetone peroxide. There is also the question of why published procedures use sulfuric acid, but amateur procedures use
hydrochloric acid. This part of the study would compare acetone peroxide yields of a variety of common acidic substances including sulfuric acid; nitric acid; hydrochloric acid;
phosphoric acid; citric acid; and acetic acid. This experiment should take into account both the molarity and pH of the acid catalysts. I would initially focus on volumes of acids
adjusted to have equal molarity. All other conditions remaining equal, the reactions would be done simultaneously in multiple test tubes to keep the temperature of the
reaction, length of reaction, etc. constant. The results of the replicate trials should be averaged and compared via graph plots to see if any one acid is favored over another.
Acidic factors affecting the yield of acetone peroxide: The preliminary data of what acid is more effective from the last experiment only tests for yield based on a single
arbitrarily set molarity. Each acid tested should be varied over a range of concentrations. Starting from a common batch of acetone and hydrogen peroxide, serial
addition of an increasing molarity of acid in each test tube would test for the effects of acid concentration. There seems to be a wide variety of concentrations of acids
in both published and amateur procedures for acetone peroxide synthesis. This experiment will shed some light on what effect a range of concentrations and a range of
pH levels will have on acetone peroxide yield. Each acid should be tested separately, for example testing only sulfuric acid with each test tube having a slightly higher
molarity of acid, all test tubes then immersed in the same temperature bath, addition of reactant controlled to keep conditions as similar as possible. The concentration
experiment is separate from the pH experiment, although both data should be recorded for every reaction. The pH experiment would be independent of concentration
by varying the pH over a range of values below 7. What then is more important, molarity or pH? This experiment should determine if organic acids are in fact inferior to
mineral acids when pH factors are equal by comparing pkas to hydronium concentration.
Temperature factors affecting the yield of acetone peroxide: Proper temperature control is apparently important on the yield of acetone peroxide, but where is the
data supporting this? Published literature gives vague warnings about not letting the temperature get to high, but I have not seen any studies that explicitly test for
temperature differences. We take for granted the unsubstantiated claim higher temperatures cause more diacetone peroxide to form. Is this in f act a truthful statement
(citation needed, I think this is a claim made by a published source)? First, does varying the temperature of the reaction have an impact on overall yield? Second, does
varying the temperature lead to different ratios of triacetone and diacetone peroxide yield? Testing for the presence of diacetone peroxide is rather difficult since it
would require sophisticated equipment. Unless there is some sort of purification technique that can separate the products. Determining overall yield is not a suitable
yardstick if a significant portion of crystallized product is in fact not triacetone triperoxide. What percentage of diacetone diperoxide is formed by varying reaction
temperatures? Vary the temperatures; do yields depend on initial low temperatures followed by warming, are yields improved by sustaining low temperatures for hours, days,
weeks?
Determination of the rate and order of addition reagents, mixing speed, and length of time beforehand that reagents are combined affecting the yield of acetone peroxide:
Does the rate of addition, and the order of addition of reactants make a difference in the yield of acetone peroxide? Should the acid, hydrogen peroxide, or acetone be added
all at once, slowly, with stirring, without stirring? How long beforehand can you combine reagents? Will there be adverse side reactions if certain combinations of reactants are
kept over long periods of time? This experiment would test for acetone/hydrogen peroxide mix, acid added; acetone/acid mix, peroxide added; peroxide/acid mix, acetone
added. Addition conducted very slowly, slow, rapid, all at once. Reaction mixtures rapidly stirred, slowly stirred, not stirred at all (shaken but not stirred?). Reagents mixtures
combined immediately before reaction, stored for some minutes, hours, days. Does the reaction benefit from brief stirring, how long should stirring be conducted?
Determination of length of time needed to optimize acetone peroxide yield. What affect does time have on the yield of acetone peroxide? Is a reaction done after minutes,
hours, days? How do the time differences come into play depending on reagent concentration, temperature, reaction size?
Determination of hydrogen peroxide concentration on acetone peroxide yield. Another unsubstantiated claim is that using weaker hydrogen peroxide lowers the yield of acetone
peroxide even when equal molarities of hydrogen peroxide are added. This may have something to do with the concentration or pH of the acid catalyst rather than
concentration of hydrogen peroxide. This experiment should test for acetone peroxide yields over a wide range of hydrogen peroxide concentrations, both with adjusted pH
levels, and without adjusted pH levels. Maintaining similar molarities of acid should also be tested for. Adding additional acid might be all that is needed to sustain high yields,
or perhaps water does have an adverse role in this reaction.
The hard part of doing these reactions will be evident if you consider you would have to conduct hundreds, perhaps a thousand or more separate reactions to test for
all of these parameters. Each experiment should vary the parameters from the earlier experiment, although I didnt put these in any particular order that need be
followed. You have 6 acids in the first experiment, 6 different reactions for molarity, 6 reactions for pH, 12 reactions overall. In the second experiment you test each of the six
acids over a range of molarities, say 10 different points, giving 60 reactions, then test for 10 different pH levels for another 60 reactions, giving 120 reactions for this
experiment. The third experiment could test over 5 different temperature points, with six acids is 30 reactions. Those same 30 reactions tested over the earlier 120 different
reactions of acid concentration and pH would be 3600 different reactions to be conducted!
To test exhaustively you would have to repeat thousands of experiments, but that sounds like a masters thesis to me. Instead, you do a series of experiments on the
list and if an acid does not give useful yields you dont use that acid anymore. If there is no difference between sulfuric and nitric acid, dont use nitric acid. If yields
drop off over 10 degrees, testing the 5 temp points at -5, 0, 5, 10, and 15 degrees, dont test all of the varying acid concentrations at greater than 10 degrees. If yields
are the same at -5 to 0 degrees, just do the reactions at 0 degrees.
The purpose of doing the study in a series of separate experiments is to focus on a specific condition, hold everything constant, and optimize that condition. Sure, you
may never know that 9M citric acid at 13 degrees gives 99.9% acetone peroxide yield in 15 minutes if you dont test for every parameter, but if every other experiment
with citric acid gives terrible yields regardless of concentration, pH, or temperature, chances are every trial with I will be terrible. Thats why you have to plot graphs,
calculate slopes, and determine trends in the data.
There are probably a few other conditions I forget to mention. Who knows if there are funky conditions affecting yield like exposure to visible or UV light, presence of
atmospheric oxygen, volume of reaction, etc. I doubt the ancient chemists ever thought to conduct an acetone peroxide synthesis in the dark with the exclusion of air.
Why can say if there will be a dif ference? Maybe this reaction is activated by UV light, or having air bubbled into it. I didnt even tough on crystals forms of acetone
peroxide. It is more than likely that recrystallization from different solvents can have an impact on crystal structure, so this is more of a physical characteristic for explosive
engineers to worry about rather than a synthetic characteristic for chemists to worry about.
The most important considerations I have are figuring out what the deal is with the different acids, hydrogen peroxide strength, and reaction temperature. These are the three
conditions with conflicting data, and in al likelihood the only important affecting acetone peroxide yield.
Ratman2050 January 30th, 2008, 09:19 PM

Very thorough analysis, and if someone would do apply this theoretical knowledge it would be greatly knowledgeable yet tedious.
I've been through some of these parameters in my experiments such as the temperature variation. For example, when conducted outside in a cold atmosphere (0 C, not
outside in solution), precipitate seem to show instantly, and is clearly visible and solid.
When done in an ice bath inside at room temperature (less than 10 C) precipitate is shown once acid is dropped, however, this precipitate quickly dissipates into smaller crystals
which are less visible. Although, when taken to a freezer (exactly 0 C for mine) for 30-60 min precipitate seems to become more visible and solid similar to the outside
experiment.
As for different acids I only have H2SO4, nothing else since I am a novice yet learning and haven't conducted nitration's. And for H2O2 strength, I have done over 5
experiments before I had 27% Hydrogen Peroxide and all yields were less than 1 gram, I tried many quantities for variations (some were left in fridge for a week with no
results). When I used 27% H2O2 it didn't matter what quantities were used as long as there was excess acetone I produced over 15g yields of AP.
I hope that helps.
megalomania January 30th, 2008, 11:38 PM

With an analytical balance these experiments can be conducted in test tube batches at the 100 mg scale allowing materials to me minimized, space to be conserved, and such
things as temperature conditions to be shared across as many vials as will fit in the ice bath. For example I would test all of the different acids in the same batch at the same
temperature and length of reaction. The effective concentration of peroxide could be determined by serially diluting 30% peroxide with more and more water, then running all
the reactions using all of the acids in the same temperature bath.
Using a test tube rack with the tubes crammed in would speed up doing the reactions, but you would still have to weigh all of the products individually, which is where the
tedious part comes in. With the right equipment once could devise a means of filtering and aspirating dry dozens of test tubes at once, then they just need to be weighed
)before and after) to calc the yield. If one had the best resources, a combinatorial reactor could do nearly all of the work automatically.
Ratman2050 January 31st, 2008, 06:39 PM

Although I lack many of those resources, wouldn't it be more proficient to test these analysis's on a different explosive, something more readily used such as a secondary, since
after most of us make AP we don't make more than 500g+ batches because it would be easier to get a secondary that could require 1/8 of that quantity to make the same
impact.
Rbick February 1st, 2008, 12:47 AM

Well I think the ideas suggested by Mega can be used in almost any explosive synthesis. You just have to change the wording around a bit. I think AP is a good explosive to
discuss, as so many people use it, newbies and experts alike. When making a product as sensitive as AP, I think it is also a good idea to know what procedure will yield you
the most trimeric forms and the most stable and contaminant free.
You certainly are not wrong though, this could be used on secondary explosives, although at a much higher price I'm afraid.
Hell, we could break this whole experiment down and assign different parts to different people. Considering most of us don't have the materials, funds, or time, we could just
split it up a bit to those willing to participate. it could be its own section, well maybe. :D
megalomania February 1st, 2008, 05:46 PM

Oh I could spend my time curing cancer, ending world hunger, and putting a man on Mars, but I don't care about that stuff. I am curious about AP, specifically the lack of
verifiable data on its yields. What I choose to work on is my decision.
Barnacles February 9th, 2008, 02:39 AM

Made a booboo. sorry could a mod please delete this. Thanks in advance
Silentnite February 20th, 2008, 12:12 AM

I have a project for the summer. I enjoy AP and the creation of. Once I finish building my lab I'll respond back.
I do believe however that HCl is used more by amateurs simply because it's more widely available. I can never seem to find H2SO4 but have obtained a source for HCl.
While batching I've noticed that the colder the ingredients prior/when mixing the higher the yield. Letting the mixture sit prior to adding acid for a day or three has also
increased yield substantially.
Rbick February 20th, 2008, 12:19 AM

I have a great amount of access to both acids, and I will always go with HCl for organic peroxide synthesis, including HMTD.
The reason for this is Sulfuric is too bothersome and a hassle for a simple oxidation reaction. I also believe it is too strong of an acid to use in this particular reaction, which
means it should be diluted, which means more work than necessary. Plus, regardless of where you buy your acids, HCl will always be cheaper. I bought 3.7L of 31.45% HCl for
about 2 dollars as compared to even the crappiest Sulfuric drain cleaner being 7 dollars per liter.
I would much rather save my Sulfuric Acid for my NG/ETN/NC/ect. labs. I have never done a comparative yield with SA and HCl reactions, but I am perfectly happy with my
HCl, as the entire reaction vessel is stuffed with fine crystals at the end of the lab.
Azido February 20th, 2008, 06:13 AM

While this is far from an analytical response, nor is it backed by a particular amount of theory, I have made some interesting observations that could be used to further research
into this topic.
I decided for to make AP for the first time the other day. I went out and bought seven 473mL (around 2.6 cup) bottles of 3% topical stabilized solution, and a quart of pure
acetone. I also picked up a bottle of 32% HCl.
I did a quick run through of some threads and decided the Acetone to Peroxide(3%) ratio should be around 1:10.4. i mixed my first batch of the chilled precursors, one bottle
of Peroxide and 50mL of Acetone. I slowly added drops (40) of the HCl, but got only a fraction of a rise in temperature, and four days later, no yield, not even a trace of
precipitate.
My next batch I thought, perhaps if the peroxide isn't being utilized fully, the yield has been dissolved in the remaining acetone. This batch I did the same thing, albeit with half
the acetone. No results. Nothing, even still.
I even brought samples of the two out into the room temperature environment to test if the reaction would progress in a warmer environment. Still nothing.
Frustrated with my lack of success and apparent waste of time and chemicals, I read more into the threads and picked up vague hints that the three percent solution might be
unsatisfactory, and that a higher concentration could be attained through boiling. Using common sense, I brought two bottles, (five cups, 946 mL) to a heat just before boil, so
bubbles were just forming and subsiding. I continued this for a few hours until I had just over a cup and a half (approx 315 mL) of peroxide remaining. Assuming I lost very
litttle peroxide to decomposition, I was left with two cups of around 10% solution.
I adjusted my ratios accordingly and chilled the precursors. This time almost immediately upon addition of the catalyst, small crystals began to form on the surface. The mixture
was placed back in the freezer and continued to form a fine, amost milky precipitate that eventually (6 hours) formed a conglomerate mass of cloudy precipitate.
Finding hope in this method of concentration, I boiled three bottles (8 cups, 1419 mL) down into two cups of peroxide (368 mL). Assuming 12% concentration, I adjusted my
ratios and proceeded as usual. There was almost instant precipitation, and the reaction seemed very healthy.
Curious as to why neither seemed to be producing much heat, I took samples of both (less that 10mL to avoid affecting the yield too much) and exposed them to room
temperature. It was really interesting to note the change. Rather than forming the powdery, cloudy precipitate, the samples began to form large flaky clumps of precipitate,
which rose to the top in a bubbly foam of precipitate, and larger clumps sunk. Perhaps I'd begun to form the dimer? Or perhaps just a result of the temperature change.
After 24 hours, filtration, washing, and neutralization, the yield of the 10% batch, with around 50mL of Acetone, was approximately 24 grams of Acetone Peroxide.
The yield of the 12% batch was an impressive 78 grams for 146ml of Acetone.
Now I've got a shitload of acetone peroxide and nowhere to put it.
Enkidu February 20th, 2008, 06:22 AM

May I remind you NOT to put in a container with a screw on lid. The crystals are known to sublime and pervade the threads between the cap and the container.
Azido February 20th, 2008, 06:28 AM

I used porcelain bowls. Bet grandma never imagined what her bowls would be used for. :)
-=HeX=- February 20th, 2008, 06:43 AM

Azido: Nice tests, any chance of putting all the ratios in millilitres because us europeans do not use cups, whatever they are.
As for the excess, do a few storage and sensitivity tests on it and post results. Or maybe make acetone peroxide and rubber cement putty. I am sure you can find a use.
Come the summer I will do a shit load of tests on TATP, HDN and ETN. Maybe I will do the tests mega suggests when my new labware arrives.
Azido February 20th, 2008, 01:11 PM

At the risk of straying from the thread topic, I've stored my ap in damp filter paper, in an altoids container, and buried it. I'm thinking about buying some starch and pressing
the damp ap into lock pick sticks (as mentioned in another thread) or some other shapes.. but for now it stays buried. I will perform some friction, crater, drop and flame tests
as soon as I am afforded some alone time. I'm also thinking about running my two rxns again at room temperature and doing friction and drop tests on the product to
determine whether or not there is an increase in sensitivity. If there is, it might be an indicator that I've formed the dimer, like I predicted.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Extracting Lead Styphnate from .22's with
acetone
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View Full Version : Extracting Lead Styphnate from .22's with acetone
tay1392 January 27th , 2 0 0 8 , 0 9 : 3 3 P M

Hello everyone, I know I am new here but just hear me out. This is a good idea if you want to try it.
1. First, get yourself a little capfull of acetone.
2 . T a k e t h e b u l l e t a n d s m o k e l e s s p o w d e r o u t o f a . 2 2 ( o r a n y r i m fire shell)
3. Put a few drops of Acetone in the shell (or m o r e d e p e n d i n g o n y o u r s h e l l )
4. Get a toothpick and stir it a ll up and pour on t o a p i e c e o f a l u m i n u m f o i l
http://i273.p hotobucket.com/albums/jj218/buttsexftw/IMG_0143.jpg
5. W ait for it to dry and use as needed. I dont suggest storing as Lead Styphnate is a very sensitive Primary.
I hope this is a fun thing try for all of you guys. ;)
Positron January 27th , 2 0 0 8 , 1 1 : 5 1 P M

Yes newbie, this has been done before.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=386&highlight=lead+styphnate
I appreciate your willingness to contribute, but suggest that you spend som e tim e u s i n g t h e s e a r c h e n g i n e ( U T F S E ) b e f o r e
posting any "new" information . If you do com e to the conclusion that you have new stuff, m ake sure it goes into the right
place...otherwise it will be cluttering things up. This is th e nicest forum I've ever seen...and people here are protective of it, for
good reason.
Charles Owlen Picket January 28th , 2008, 10:34 AM

W e could discuss the merits of extraction of prim ary via comm ercially available prim ers. This IS an O T C source for material
that could not elsewhere be bought with ease. However, it's note worthy that with the extraction process outlined, the return is
not very substantial and (m ore im portantly) the material is very im pure.
Prim ers vary in their composition due to their application to im pact received and their em b o d i m ent within the cartridge design.
S o m e contain more o r less LS and the ratio of tetrazene, lead salts of trinitrophlo roglucanol, & hot flame prim aries that are
trade secret stuff will vary quite a bit. Patents will show the perce ntages of binder vs. prim er; but with some it's pretty high.
W hat's m ore the leve l of powdered gla ss is pretty high.
I have played with com p a r i s o n s o f s h o t g u n p r i m e r s a n d L g . m ag rifle prim ers and concluded that the form er have m o r e
m aterial to b e pulled.....however that m aterial has more glass in it. What's more, forget color of the m aterial. Som e
companies specifically color th e m aterial for clean-up purposes within the m fg pro cess (so it m ay b e seen clearly, etc).
THAT is why m icroscopes beco me a worthy tool. Their uses continue to provide m ore inform ation than would be first thought
possible.
rangegal February 4th, 2008, 11:51 PM

W ould you say its safe to scra pe the lead styph. up with a razor blade to load a d etonator? Or do I need to do that when its
still dam p with acetone? I put a few drops of acetone in a .22 sh ell the other week but I was to sca red to stick a toothpick or
anything into it. I didn't want to find out what would hap pen if it went off full of acetone. But since you did it first I guess I'll try
it too. I don't have any good prim aries right no w and anything is better than AP if you ask m e.
A single .22 prim er is actually sufficient to set off som e explosives by its self if initiated properly. After seeing a video of NG
bein g d e t o n a t e d b y a shotgun shell primer initiated by therm ite I discovered I could detonated the prim er by putting a
blowtorch on a .22 shell. I then filled the shell with NG b ehind a log, put the blowtorch on it and ran. I had already timed how
long it takes to set off once the flam e touches it, and it was at least 4 seconds each tim e. The shell had sprayed the log in tiny
s u b m i l l i m e t e r s q u a r e d p e i c e s o f b r a s s a n d t h e re was a dent in the m eta l barrel I had set the shell on. Upon further inspection
I noticed a piece of .22 shell hit the tip of my blowtorch and ripped a tiny piece out of it...
I t o o a m g l a d I b o u g h t a m icroscope when I started getting into science. Whenever I'm wondering about something new I've
f o u n d o r s o m ething I've m ade I just throw it under the m icroscope and see what I can learn about it by just observing it, you
can't always get the info you want from looking at it, but it always helps m a k e i n f e r e n c e s .

Personally speaking I will never say so m e t h i n g i s s a f e t o d o e v e n if I do it because I don't know what the "touch" of the reader
will be like. I once m ade that m i s t a k e a n d t h e i d i o t p u s h e d t h e l i m its of the enve l o p e a n d t h e m aterial reacted. However know
that this lead styphnate has u s u a l l y s o m e p o w d e r e d g l a s s a n d s o m e t e t r a z e n e i n it making is a bit sensitive.....However while
it is whetted with alcohol it SHOU LD be able to m anipulate with n o great concern.....so long as you don't GR IND THE MATERIAL
IN THE PROC ESS. -=Use Caution=-
Masonjar Chemist February 5th, 2008, 12:01 PM

If some one were to do extraction from multiple shells at once, wouldn't it be feasible to filter out the powd ered glass while the
s t y p h n a t e a n d t e t a z e n e a r e d i s s o l v e d ? T h e n t o get rid of the tetrazene, just boil the solution in wa ter for a few minutes, and it
will decompose.
Bert February 5th, 2008, 12:11 PM

T h e p r i m i n g m ix is designed to be sensitive to SHOCK and produce FLAME. You want som ething that is sensitive to FLAME and
produces a strong SHO CK. Even in detonators where it was used, styphnate was m ixed into or layered over the primary
intended to do the brunt of the work.

It's importan t to understand the distinction between the prim er in a sm okeless powder shell and a detonator, per se'. Bert
s p o k e o f t h e d e s i g n o f t h e m aterial (LS) as being directed toward the production of flam e. Understand that LS is actually not
i n t e n d e d t o p r o d u c e t h e s h o c k i m p u l s e t h a t a n a z i d e w o u l d . Y o u m ight think that with eno ugh lead styphnate there would be a
substantial increase in shock but that is open to conjecture. LS is just not that great of a shock pro ducing m aterial. (There is
really no reason to get rid of the tetrazene;, the glass would be a better thing to be rid of...)
It's within the realm of possibility that LS may be a promising base from which to build (chemically) such a com p o s i t i o n b u t a s
it exists from a prim er; the results would not seem too prom ising. However.....this also depends on the secondary to be
initiated. If you were to build an explosive train with NG just behind the LS, your detonation m ay work quite well.
Discussed before was the idea of a detonator with NG within it, as a "m ini-booster" to allow for the use of ju st such a concept. It
would be easy to conceptualize but ide ally you would wa nt to separate the dry LS from the liquid NG, etc, etc.
Yafmot April 27th, 2008, 08:34 AM

You can get a lot m ore prim er m i x o u t o f C C I # 5 0 0 M a g n u m rifle primers, and it's stupid easy. Over a paper plate, gently and
stea dily squeeze the primer EDGEW ISE with some long nosed pliers. The anvil will fall out, followed by the foil, which you just
brush to the side with a toothpick or other small. wooden im plem ent. Then you GENTLY tap the pliers on the plate a nd the m ix
will fall out, sometim es in a powder form, som etimes in chunks, and occasionally as a solid pellet.
But you've got to have a touch for these things. It's a very tactile process, and critically so. You only need to deform the cup a
little bit. Put the gorilla grip on it, and you're liable to wind up with your thum bnail sticking through your lip, or som ething.
I once detonated about a half pound of AN/Furfuryl Alco hol with about 15 prim ers worth of this stuff, so there's definitely some
Azide in there, as well as Tetracene. To make sure of that, I talked to a guy at RCBS, a sister com pany to CC I, and h e g a v e
m e the whole rundown on it. He also told m e anybody would have to be nuts to play with prim a r i e s . P a s s t h e T h o r a z i n e ,
plea s e .
486 May 11th, 2008, 10:11 PM

The primer m ix in individual p rimers is shock sensitive, but slow force hasn't set it off in m y experience. I was reloading a
large batch of .223 and the prim er crim p s o n m any of the cases were still in, and it was about every 20th one that had a
prim er crush in it, some even went in sideways. They sp illed out powder [which ap pears to be the priming com p o u n d ] b u t o u t
o f a r o u n d 5 0 crushed prim ers none went off.
J u s t f o r a n e x a m ple of the sensitivity, also these were non-corro sive prim ers [not m ercuric] and not lead free, so I think they
a r e t h e s a m e lead styphnate. They were winchester "sm all rifle" primers, if you want to look up a MSDS on them .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tmdd
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View Full Version : Tmdd
Ethyl February 1st, 2008, 04:03 PM

First I know that this topic was discussed before. But discussion died quickly. And as the thread is very old I didn't want to post in it.
I made TMDD from 16 ml of 36% formaldehyde solution, 27 ml of 30% H2O2, 6 g of urea and 20 ml of H2SO4 extracted from a car battery. First I dissolved urea in H2O2 and
then I added formaldehyde and sulfuric acid. The mixture warmed only a little. After two days I filtered it, neutralized the remaining acid with a sodium carbonate solution and
then I washed it with water. Yield is around 8-10 g.
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb248/Cigan_2007/TMDD.jpg
When I ignited it with a match it burned with a flame similar to AP and HMTD but a little faster than AP. And some white smoke was evolved. Perhaps the smoke was created
because some water remained in it as I have noticed that lumps sometime go up in smoke with no flame at all. Probably they weren't dry inside.
I have read in the two old threads that it is easily dead pressed. I will try to detonate the TMDD I have and will post the results. And did anyone here recently made TMDD and
tried to use it in a blasting cap?
Tinton February 2nd, 2008, 11:52 AM

If your formaldehyde is in solution with water, wouldn't adding sulfuric acid release formaldehyde gas?
Ethyl February 2nd, 2008, 01:24 PM

Perhaps adding enough conc. H2SO4 would but I don't know. I added only 20 ml of dilute acid. And the solution of formaldehyde has around 10% methanol to prevent the
formaldehyde from polymerizing. Perhaps that has also some effect.
And today I set of that TMDD. I filled a cardboard tube with AP and then over it TMDD(AP and TMDD were not mixed). There was approximately 50% of each. It detonated
nicely!! And it created a lot of smoke for a such small charge. I will make an another batch of TMDD but I will detonate it alone.
Ethyl March 13th, 2008, 04:26 PM

Sorry for the double post and late reply. Now that I have again obtained 30% hydrogen peroxide I am going to make TMDD again. The problem is now I don't have any H2SO4
so I am interested if HCl can be used instead? I would try it myself but my H2O2 is too valuable to be used on something that perhaps won't work. I know that HNO3 can be
also used instead of sulfuric acid.

Sorry for double posting again but I cant edit the previous post.
I finally made more TMDD. It is drying now. I used 70 ml of 30% H2O2, 50 ml of 36% formaldehyde, 19 g of urea and around 40 ml of sulfuric acid extracted from a old car
battery. When it gets dry I will test it more (a mix with AN, detonating pure TMDD (I read that it easily gets dead pressed, and using it for a blasting cap). I will report the
results.

Unfortunately I double post again but I cant edit the previous post. What is the time limit for editing??
I am unfortunately unable to test TMDD due to problems with the police. Now all I can do is light it in small amounts to burn it. I will let a small amount stand to see how
storage stable it is. And there is one thing I thing is strange. When TMDD deflagrates it creates smoke. The smoke is actually oil. When I ignite it with a match my fingers get
covered in some viscous and colorless oil. Also a small amount of oil is left on the surface it burned. Does anyone know what the oil might be?
dhemor_ July 8th, 2008, 07:44 AM

Hmm, I'm not sure what the oil could be.. Is the smoke a vapourized solid? It might give an indication of the power of this compound, as the energy given to vapourize the
solid formed could take away from the overall explosive power..
I have never heard of it before, so I'm interested in this :). Now I need to find a source of urea!
Ethyl July 8th, 2008, 08:15 AM

The smoke is a vaporised oily liquid. You can find urea as an artificial fertilizer in hardware stores.
dhemor_ July 8th, 2008, 07:26 PM

Oh ok. Hm, I'll check that out. I've never really seen it over here. I'm from Ireland, and if you've heard of the IRA, you'll see why explosives are on extreme crack-down.. :(
I believe that farmers can get their hands on it, but I've only heard of it coming in one tonne bags (Need to verify this; I heard from a mate who heard from a mate.. I'll get
my hands on whatever it is and see what I can find out!). Also my uncle (needed it for his garden, but knows more things about explosives than the typical adult) was in a
large fertilizer distributor centre, aimed at farmers, and they only had ammonium nitrate, I believe. No urea to be found :(.
Ethyl July 12th, 2008, 11:08 AM

Today I mixed up another TMDD batch (32 ml of 36% formaldehyde,40 ml of H2SO4 from a old car battery, 12 g of urea and 60 ml of 30% H2O2). When the TMDD is ready I
will try to detonate it alone (not with AP as the last time) and do some impact sensitivity tests. But I will be able only to set off a few grams under ground in my back yard (the
police found me, and now too much people, mostly tourists, are where I live). I hope it will go off (people reported it easily becomes dead pressed). After summer I will test
AN/TMDD mix. It should be safer than APAN, as I believe TMDD is more stable than AP.
simply RED July 13th, 2008, 01:38 PM

Indeed it easily becomes dead pressed !
AN+TMDD sounds interesting ...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Should I upload Machining Sim ulation
Software?
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View Full Version : Should I upload Machining Simulation Software?
sbovisjb1 February 4th, 2008, 07:27 PM

http://www.spring.fr/e n/ncm achiningsimulation_ncsimul.asp ?

This can be a great contribution and you should be thanked accordingly. However the question is d o p e o p l e u s e n u m e r i c a l
control m achine tools? If so, this is the answer to a prayer. If no t you are doing a lot of work for an absent audience, as it
were.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > First atomic bomb diagram
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black mamba March 17th, 2008, 12:07 AM

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/First_atomic_bomb_diagram
File
first-atomic-bomb-drawing.jpg (click to view full file)
Analysis
Make a targeted donation to sponsor analysis and reportage of this document by professional journalists or anti-corruption investigators. You can also research the document
yourself and add your findings to its discussion page.
Summary
Censored early drawing of an atomic weapon based on the famous U.S Los Alamos "Fat Man" device which was dropped on Nagasaki and detonated in the Trinity test. The
diagram is from a report completed by William G. Penney on 1 July 1947
The Penney Report, outlining the features of an atomic bomb based on the U.S. Fat Man pattern, and the tasks required to develop one for Britain, was declassified and made
available to the the public under the Public Records Act (now amended by the Freedom of Information Act which came into force in January 2005).
However the UK Public Record Office File AVIA 65/1163, "Implosion" (covering the years 1947-1953) was then withdrawn from public access during 2002 and this will not be
reconsidered until 2014.
The actual legal status of this file remains as a public record. Its access condition has been changed to "Retained by Department under Section 3.4" (of the PRA) which means
that the file has been returned to the custody of the originating department (Ministry of Supply) or its successor. This limitation of access does not constitute reimposition of a
secret security marking, and no attempt appears to have been made by the UK government to contact people who had previously obtained copies of this file.
It should be observed that Penney's description and discussion of development are no more revealing than descriptions of the United States' first implosion bomb that have
been publicly available for many years, and in fact are less precise than other descriptions that are now available, and are in any case are the oldest material in the file, written
before any actual bomb development work had been undertaken in the UK.
Penney's description is by all accounts far less technical and detailed than "Tuck's Bible", detailed notes written around this same time by James Tuck, another member of the
British Mission to Los Alamos who, unlike Penney ,was deeply involved in the actual design and development of the implosion bomb. Tuck's Bible has never been made public.
Penney and the Start of the Post-War British Atomic Bomb Program
William G. Penney, the British "Oppenheimer", spent most of 1944 and 1945 as part of the British Mission at Los Alamos. This was an elite team of British scientists, and emigres
to Britain, who contributed to the development, testing and use of the atomic bombs during the Second World War. Sent as a specialist on ocean waves, his gifts were readily
apparent at Los Alamos and he soon was made one of the five members of the Los Alamos "brain trust" that made key decisions in the direction of the program, putting him in
the company of Robert Oppenheimer, John Von Neumann, "Deke" Parsons and Norman Ramsey. On 27 April 1945 Penney became one of only two representatives from Los
Alamos (and the only Briton) to be part of the ten man Target Committee that drew up the list of targets for the atomic bombing of Japan. Penney travelled to Tinian Island in
the Pacific to be on hand for planning and briefing the atomic bombing missions. Penney actually witnessed the bombing of Nagasaki, flying in an observation plane
accompanying the attack. Afterward he conducted damage surveys there on the ground.
Penney returned to Imperial College immediately after the war, but accepted an appointment to head the Armament Research Department (ARD) on 1 January 1946. On 8
January 1947 the secret GEN.163 Cabinet committee of six Ministers (headed by PM Attlee) decided to proceed with development and acquisition of atomic weapons. Penney
did not receive word of this decision until May 1947 when he was finally asked by Lord Portal to lead Britain's own nuclear weapon program. The decision was not disclosed
publicly in any respect until 12 May 1948, when an oblique reference was made to atomic weapon development in parliamentary discussions.
In June 1947 Penney began assembling a team to work on the bomb. One of his first steps was to prepare a document describing the features of the U.S. implosion bomb,
breaking down the development tasks required to replicate it, and identifying outstanding questions that required further research. This report was completed on 1 July, was
entitled Plutonium Weapon - General Description (UK Public Record Office File AVIA 65/1163, "Implosion") and gave the British atomic weapons program a preliminary design
description roughly equivalent in terms of detail to the description provided the Soviets by Klaus Fuchs.
The diagram is an overview of a plutonium-239 based weapon. The synthesis of plutonium requires a plutonium breeder nuclear reactor which in turn requires a supply of
enriched uranium or significant quantities of natural uranium and a large core. In general, the plutonium-production route to weapons development, which involves reprocessing
of spent reactor-fuel to extract plutonium, is easier to detect than small-scale clandestine uranium enrichment.
The censored diagram has also been made available from the nuclearweapons.org archive who also provided much of the above text. The text to the report can be found
here: http://www.nuclearweaponarchive.org/Library/DocumentArchive/Resources/PenneyPuWeapon.html
Quick analysis of purported Atomic Bomb Diagram
1. Neutron Initiator
Theoretically workable. Polonium is a well known alpha radiation emitter. Alpha radiation is He atoms stripped of electrons and accelerated towards c. When polonium
crushed onto beryllium by explosion, reaction occurs between polonium alpha emissions and beryllium leading to Carbon-12 & 1 neutron. This, in practice, would lead
to a predictable neutron flux, sufficient to set off device. Widely known that once critical mass is obtained, in order for bomb to explode, requires fission initiation by
neutron generation; this will do the trick. Polonium 210 specifically well known alpha emitter. Gold/nickel foil layer around beryllium is sufficient to prevent pre-reaction
prior to explosive compression due to low penetrability of alpha radiation (cant pass through paper). This allows f or long-term storage of initiator.
The Boron-10 shielding is to keep stray (eg cosmic ray generated) neutrons from pre-initiating the chain reaction.
The polonium in the initiator has a short, half-year halflife.
The inner layer of the Be sphere is etched with grooves, these will create Be jets when imploded (shaped charge effect) which mixes the Be and Po very quickly.
2. Diagram
Roughly to scale. No easy feat in days prior to computerized drafting tools. Measurements located on table in top left roughly match drawing scale. Note archaic units
(lbs): physicists after 50s probably would have used SI units, regardless of country. Also note quality of arcs (Fast HE/Slow HE) indicates is drawn by professional
draftsman.
3. High Explosives & Miznay/Schardin effect (e.g. shaped charge)
Miznay/Schardin effect will work in this design, in all likelihood, though the additional layer of HE after the first layer of lenses is a surprise. Are the lenses strong
enough to compress the second layer of HE? In any event, theres enough explosive in there to cause the Miznay/Schardin effect, and enough aluminum to convincingly
crush the core.
The outer layer of slow + fast explosives is used to create a number of converging planar shock wavefronts. The inner layer of solid HE is not compressed, but is initiated fairly
uniformly by the many planar wavefronts hitting it. The uniformity of initiation is important to the compression of the core.
Also note the squiggly lines indicating compression.
Note also the possibilities table in the bottom left. This indicates several possibilities as to how much explosive is necessary, indicating that this may be an incomplete
design, perhaps a pre-Trinity design.
4. Weaponization.
The weapon has a removable core, or at least a serviceable one, as evidenced by felt layers. This is necessary to allow the bomb to be disassembled.
5. Assessment.
This diagram is not really a secret to foreign intelligence services; nobody is going to be surprised by this design, just by the fact that its appeared in public. Open
sources have speculated on these matters for a long time (see nuclear weapons design article in Wikipedia), and this just confirms that they were right. (The structure of the
neutron initiator is elegant, and interesting, however.)
This is a crude, but effective, plutonium based design. Devices that are orders of magnitude more efficient are possible. A disclosure of, for example, the plans of the
W-88 or a Russian equivalent, would be far more threatening, as there are actually real secrets involved there not known to all the NWS (the Big-5 + India, Pakistan,
Israel, North Korea) or Virtual NWS (Germany, Japan, Sweden, South Korea, Canada, Ukraine, Taiwan, Italy, Spainto name a few) intelligence agencies. After 1949 or
so, disclosure of this would not have been a real threat to U.S. national security.
The real problem about building one of these designs is the rarity (at least outside of NWS nuclear facilities) of plutonium and polonium, as well as the ability to
fabricate sophisticated high explosives to exacting specifications. Were not talking about IEDs here. To build a nuclear weapon requires a state.
Context
United States
Military or intelligence (ruling)
US Department of Defense
Wikileaks release date

Tuesday March 11, 2008
Primary language
English
File size in bytes
395437
File type information
JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
Cryptographic identity
SHA256 7f1faeaadf7abedad8d6de2ffe1a507ab956c506aa1840bb1b 51db7ea87e1f27
a3990918 March 17th, 2008, 12:37 AM

Why post the whole page here when the link would have sufficed?:confused: Seems like a waste of forum space and bandwidth...:(
Bert March 17th, 2008, 11:57 AM

I question the choice of forum for this post.
On quick inspection, the 1947 material COMPLETELY skips the vital matter of the high voltage discharge switching to the EBW detonators- As I know that interdicting the needed
electronics supplies to Iraq, N. Korea and other such places has been a priority, I find that an interesting omission.
plutobound March 17th, 2008, 03:03 PM

The book "US Nuclear Weapons - A Secret History" by Chuck Hansen published in 1988 provides much more detailed information about Nuclear weapon designs including
weapon diagrams and yields. Copies are expensive, but available

Building one using two detonation points seems to be a lot easier (I think there are people here on the forum who could get at least a few hundred tons tnt, results). The hard
part is the materals. Even knowing the principles of centrifuge separation doesn't really get you anywhere. What you really need is a vast crude oil source so you can buy a lot
of machines and people. If you have that, you're golden. Just watch your back, the IDF or marines may be sneaking up on you.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > H2O2 & Tang?
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Yafmot April 4th, 2008, 06:14 AM

Just listened to the news. Apparently, those sweethearts who were going to blow up nine airliners going from Heathrow to US
destinations were going to board with bottles of H2O 2 a n d " T a n g " b r e a k f a s t d r i n k powder. Let's see, there's Citric Acid, a little
Ascorbic Acid, som e sugar and what else in there?
Anybody ever heard of this shit? Think it'd bring down som e "Big Iron?"
ChippedHammer April 4th, 2008, 07:25 AM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ne ws/m ain.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/03/nterror403.xml
Mr W r i g h t d e s c r i b e d h o w t h i s m a i n c h a r g e w o u l d h a v e b e e n d e t o n a t e d b y a n o t h e r s u b s t a n c e k n o w n a s h e x a m ethyle n e
triperoxide diamine (HMTD) concealed within hollowed-out batteries.
H e a d d e d : T h e d e t o n a t o r w o u l d e x p l o d e t h e p rimary charge of hydrogen peroxide and Tang with lethal effect.
W hat the fuck? Looks like something out of a shitty cookbook.
Rbick April 4th, 2008, 11:18 AM

Yeah I think it is a "k 3wl bomb" design. My guess is that it would work sim ilarly to the water gel ex plosive mixture, which is
h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e a n d a l u m inum powder, gelled with guar gum. Here is a video (http://www.youtu be.com/watch?
v = z v N o U c O J a k 0 ) o f i t o n y o u t u b e . T h e H 2 O 2 w o u l d o x i d i z e t h e c o m p o n e n t s o f t h e t a n g , a nd the 50% or so of water would be
turned into g a s , m a y b e e v e n o x i d i z e m o r e o f t h e t a n g i f t h e e n e r g y l e v e l w a s h i g h e n o u g h a n d b e c o m e H2 g a s .
T h e t a n g d o e s c o n t a i n a l a r g e am ount of sugar, as was mention ed earlier. In a m ixture with a powerful oxidizer like AN, the
effects can be quite im pressive. See this video (http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=EN-66pjyvkE) which is a m ixture of AN and
icing sugar. W e also know that potassium nitrate with sugar is used to make hom e m ade rocket fuel or fuse. So sugar is an
effective fuel. In high er concentrations, hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer, especially when approaching the 50% rang e.
80% will actu ally cause organic substances to start on fire upon contact! In conclusion, high concentration hydrogen peroxide +
sugar = an e nergetic and potentially explosive mixture. The acids that are inherent in the tang m ay also further sensitize the
m ixture, and other ingredients probably cause it to reach a more gel like consistency, allowing better dispersion of the
components.
T h e y h a d a l r e a d y s a i d t h e H M T D w a s m a d e a n d c o n c e a l e d i n a h o l l o w e d b a t t e r y . P l u s m aking it on the plane and drying it for

use would be impossible unless you're on a really long flight and you are som ehow able to conceal your actions and the sm ell
it makes.
Perhaps som eone could test this idea for the sake of experim ent? I think this case makes a good point that explosives can be
m ade from basically anything. W atch them try to ban hydrogen peroxide and tang :rolleyes:
EDIT: Here is the stuff that would probably gel it: XANTHAN AND C ELLULO SE AND CALCIUM PHOSPHATE
Ingredients found at http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=949492

W as this published on April 1st?
HMT D in a m etal tube, with a m etal filam ent and/or wires in direct contact with it. HMTD doesn't like being in contact with
m etals...
H i g h p e r c e n t a g e H 2 O 2 c a n b e m a d e i n t o h i g h e x p l o s i v e m ixture s. They don't store well. Dehydrating drug store 3% H2O2 to a

concentration suitable for such a m ix would be cahllenging to say the least.
megalomania April 5th, 2008, 02:30 AM

W hat the... does TO TSE have an arabic section? Is this the best these idiots can com e up with, tang? W hat's next, will they be
distilling nitrates out of their urine in the john?
Strong enough hydrogen peroxide is explosive by itself. I think in their case HMTD being m a d e l e s s s t a b l e i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f
m etal is a good thing because they are suicide bombers after all, they want it to detonate easy.
These guys should stick to buses, subways, and police stations because their track record with the airlines is miserable. I am
glad they don't, but why don't they mix it up a little? Hijack a tanker full of gasoline and d rive it into a jew temple or federal
building; dress an arab in a nice suit a nd briefcase full of high explosives and blow up the entrance to the Capital Building
while som e s e n a t o r o r c o n g r e s s m e n i s g o i n g i n s i d e ; m achine gu n a bunch of rich white kids as they get out of a pricey private
school; hold hostages at a donors conference at Harvard... There are num erous targets with no security that will get them just
a s m uch m edia attention as a p l a n e c r a s h i n g i n f l a m e s .
Gerbil April 16th, 2008, 06:06 PM

It's hardly surprising, given that their last m aster plan was to m ix 30% H2O 2 with flour and detona te with AP. Ragheads have
never shown any intelligence or skill when making explosives- even the Palestinian ones, with large scale funding, keep
m aking peroxide bottle rockets that kill more jihadis than jews.
D o e s t h e K o r a n h a v e a v e r s e a b o u t d e stroying the big metal birds in the sky?
Alexires April 18th, 2008, 11:06 PM

I was just about to say what Gerbil said. I bet it is based upon som e bullshit in th e Koran.
Otherwise they are drunk on the power that 9/11 got them (if they even did it) and think that they need to keep blowing up
" m e t a l b i r d s " t o k e e p up their track record.
Y o u w o u l d n e e d A L O T o f t a n g t o g e l H 2 O 2 i n t o a n y t h i n g e v e n v a g u e l y r e s e m b l i n g a n e x p losive.
I was thinking perhaps it was som e k3wl variation on an HMTD synth. In tang you have so me of th e known useful acids that
work in the synth of HMTD. Pe rhaps they think that by sticking together a synth that looks vaguely like a water-gel/HMTD they
would get som ewhere ....
Fuck knows what they are thinking.
Controlled Chaos April 19th, 2008, 01:45 AM

I a m probably ruining the fun, but we all know how excited the m edia gets over these thin gs. They are ready to turn any
nonreactive or harmless product into a terroristic device. I don't know exactly what it is inside of them , I a s s u m e they are just
tryin g to sell another story.
W hen kids are just trying to have some relatively harm less fun with a coke bottle, som e d ry ice, and water... They turn the
children into mad "bo mbers'. I bet that the threat was not Tang, but a disguised power that was in a Tang container designe d
to resemble Tang.
megalomania April 21st, 2008, 05:02 PM

It could be a translation error. I have seen the references specifically saying NOT to use citric acid, or any o rganic acid in the
s y n t h e s i s o f a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e . Maybe they confused a warning against using citric acid with a recomm e n d a t i o n t o u s e i t . H e n c e
Tang is chosen as a concentrated source of acid.
FortiusPenguin August 1st, 2008, 10:56 PM

Aye, I have always been bam b o o z l e d b y t h e s t a g g e r i n g a m o u n t o f f u n d i n g a n d o r g a n i z a t i o n s o m e of these terrorist groups
p o s s e s s , a n d y e t , m ost of the m embers here at RogueSci could likely m a k e a m ore effective explosive device, or organize a
m ore media-stirring attack.
Jeez.
It's like a four year old with a hundred nukes, but he doesn't know how to push buttons!
AliasBlast October 9th, 2008, 10:34 PM

I'm a little surprised that most people don't seem to think that H2O 2 a n d " T a n g " c o u l d c r e a t e a p o t e n t i a l e x p l o s i v e m ixture.
After all, H2O2 is kno wn to detonate in high concentrations (>90 %- as already m entioned), and H2O2 with organic fuels can
form explosive mixtures with m uch lower H2O2 concentrations (see Federeoff or Urbanski). However, from the news articles I
saw, the concentration of H2O2 they had planned to use was significantly lower, around 15-20%.
In regards to this, I have two questions for anyone who may have experience with H2O2:
1. Exactly how difficult is it to concentrate H2O2 ( a s s u m e 1 5 % ) t o s o m e t h i n g t h a t m ight be capable of creating an e xp losive
m ixture (assum e 30-50%)? No, I don't plan on doing this, just looking for a little insight into the potential threat from
terrorists.
2. Is it reaso nable to think that the citric acid (or any other acid) could act as a catalyst enough to significantly lower the H2O2
concentration needed for explosive decom position? Does anyone have experience to share or know of any references which
discuss this?

Hey AB, are you fam iliar w/the old Civil Defence exercise, "Duck and Cover"? :p
AliasBlast October 13th , 2008, 01:49 AM

C o 4 5 - Y e a h . . a n d I ' m g u e s s i n g i t ' s a f a m iliar concept for many people in this forum :D.
I know that peroxides are particularly inclined to have runaway d ecom position rea ctions (h ence the SADT criteria used in
indu stry), and acids as well as other contam inants will increase the chances or such decom position.
A n y H 2 O 2 a n d f u e l m ixture would not m a k e a g r e a t e x p l o s i v e u n l e s s t h e concentration is very high (too m u c h e n e r g y g o e s t o

creating gaseous water). But terrorists aren't really interested in great explosives, they want what's easy and available. Making
TATP and HMTD doesn't require such a high concentration of H2O2, so I wonder if they would bother (or even be able) to
produce H2O 2 in a high enough concentration. From what I understand g etting anything above 30% can be difficult without
using vaccuum distillation or more com p l i c a t e d m e t h o d s .
Hinckleyforpresident October 13th , 2008, 02:05 AM

Alias:
1. Exactly how difficult is it to concentrate H2O2 ( a s s u m e 1 5 % ) t o s o m e t h i n g t h a t m ight be capable of creating an e xp losive

m ixture (assum e 30-50%)? No, I don't plan on doing this, just looking for a little insight into the potential threat from
terrorists.
UTFSE, we don't spoonfeed here.

T h a t ' s m o r e l i k e t h e d u c k a n d cover I was referring to...
Sandman1 Novem ber 4th, 2008, 02:29 PM

Most of the articles i've seen claim the H2O2 was concentrated to 70% and you do not need vaccuum distillation, a beaker a n d
a hot plate works just fine.
Hinckleyforpresident Novem ber 4th, 2008, 02:57 PM
Most of the articles i've seen claim the H2O2 was concentrated to 70% and you do not need vaccuum distillation, a beaker a n d
a hot plate works just fine.
W ould you m ind citing some of these articles that claim H2O2 can be concentrated to 70% simply by boiling?
fluoroantimonic Novem ber 4th, 2008, 11:00 PM

I don't recall seeing where it was concentrated by boiling (at least anywhere near atm o s p h eric pressure), but I do know for a
fact it has be m a d e u p to about 80% by slow evaporation. I have the paper som ewhere, I'll try to find it..
AliasBlast Novem ber 5th, 2008, 09:46 AM

From the older threads on concentrating H2O 2, m any people claim to get 30+% concentra tion by sim ply bo iling it, but don't
have any way of actually m e a s u r i n g . T h e " s i m p ly evaporating" m ethod is intriguing and also sounds effective, as well as the
s e m i-perm e a b l e m e m b r a n e m ethods. Either way, it see ms that getting the H2O2 from 3% to something th a t m a y d e t o n a t e o r
a t l e a s t " e x p losively decompo se" with som e fuel or catalyst is possible.
The next question is if the terrorist would or will try to pursue this for future attacks. It's obscure, a n d n o t t h e b e s t u s e o f
H 2 O 2, but as its been pointed out, they're not the brightest bunch. O f co urse, its going to be a lot harder with the current liq uid
restrictions and 3-1-1 rule. If I were going to go to all the trouble of sneaking som ething on the plane it sure as hell wouldn't
be a bottle o f H 2 O 2 .
**********************
I fail to see the purpose behind your post... Yo u s e e m to just be restating what o t h e r s h a v e s a i d b e f o r e y o u . P o s t s o n t h e
Foru m m u s t h a v e a p oint, otherwise you are just comm itting the crime of post-whoring.
-Hinckleyforpresident
Nerdlock Novem ber 5th, 2008, 01:22 PM

I know writing my first post ou tside of the water cooler is looked down upon, but I feel like I have som ething of a bit of value
to add.
This past week I decided to concentrate H2O2 by boiling it. I used 50 m L o f 3 % H 2 O 2 m e a n i n g t h e r e i s 1 . 5 m L H2O2. I was
boiling the m ixture at 102 C and around the 1.5 m L m a r k i t s t o p p e d b o i l i n g b e c a u s e t h e b o i l i n g p o i n t o f H 2 O 2 i s a b o u t 1 5 0 C .
I was left 1.5 m L o f w h a t I ' m a s s u m i n g t o b e n e a r 1 0 0 % H 2 O 2 .
Hinckleyforpresident Novem ber 5th, 2008, 02:28 PM

This past week I decided to concentrate H2O2 by boiling it. I used 50 m L o f 3 % H 2 O 2 m e a n i n g t h e r e i s 1 . 5 m L H2O2. I was
boiling the m ixture at 102 C and around the 1.5 m L m a r k i t s t o p p e d b o i l i n g b e c a u s e t h e b o i l i n g p o i n t o f H 2 O 2 i s a b o u t 1 5 0 C .
I was left 1.5 m L o f w h a t I ' m a s s u m i n g t o b e n e a r 1 0 0 % H 2 O 2 .
Had you UTFSE (or read the whole thre ad), you would have seen that sim ply boiling at atm ospheric pressure will always lead to
significant decomposition. And also had you U TFSE, you would have seen that the concentration can be measured by density.
Never assum e. Always check.
Sandman1 Novem ber 7th, 2008, 12:09 PM

Hinckleyforpresident,
Let m e clarify, I was refering to the explosive m ixture to be used in the attacks. I think th e BBC re ferenced the specific
m ixture/ratio and concentation in court testimony of both the July 21, 2005 bom bing trial and the Trans Atlantic trial.
The reference to the hot plate m ethod was attributed to a lab study which claim ed.
They used retail products containing hydrogen peroxide antiseptics, hair bleaches, wood bleach, and labora tory reagents
ranging in co ncentration from 3% to 35%. and boiled th e m i n g l a s s b e a k e r s a n d s t a i n l e s s s t e e l s a u c e p a n s u s i n g 7 5 0 - W a t t a n d
1,000-W att electric hot plates. Supposedly they m a d e p eroxide concentrations be tween 70-90%
megalomania Novem ber 10th, 2008, 08:30 PM

Boiling a two component m ixture in the open will cause a significant amount of both substances to vaporize. You can't get pure
water from a beer by boiling o ff the alcohol, both substances boil off, alb eit at different rates.
You can only concentrate dilute hydrog e n p e r o x i d e s o m uch by heating in the open, and I strongly doubt a conc even near
70% would be possible just by heating alone. Perhaps if you gently heated a 500 gallon tank of dilute peroxide for a year you
could get a few mL of 70%...
This is what you get from liste ning to the m edia... They m ay have boiled their peroxide to concentrate it. They also may have
o b t a i n e d 9 0 % p e r o x i d e . T h i s d o e s n o t m ean they boiled it to obtain 90% peroxide!
There is a missing step, just like the crapbooks, that the article does not m ention. There is m o r e t h a n o n e d i f f e r e n t k i n d o f
concentration procedure here. You can drive off a good bit of the water of a very dilute peroxide solution without losing m uch
peroxide by boiling, but only up to a point. They would then have taken that reduced volum e and distilled it in lab equipm e n t
to obtain higher concentrations.
This is why we don't follow lab procedures from n e wsp apers .
FUTI Novem ber 11th, 2008, 07:38 AM

AFAIK 56% H2O2 can be purchased by factories because at this concentration even H2O 2 can evaporate. And if significant
a m ount of H2O 2 vapors is form ed these can th en detonate above solution so no you can't concentrate H2O2 that easy. My
e x p e r i m ents with peroxides clearly shows that above 40 d e g r e e s C e l s i u s e v e n s t a b l e f o r m peroxides start to decom p o s e a t
high er rate.
James Novem ber 11th, 2008, 03:09 PM

just as a swa g they m ight be adding a dehydrating agent (silica gell come to m ind for som e reason) or freezing it with
s o m ething that separate/binds to the water. Or they m ight be running a fractional distillation rig (not).{/useless rub bish}
*******************
Thank you for yet again restating what others have said before you :rolleyes:.
{/useless rubbish} At least you got that part right...
-Hinckleyforpresident
Sandman1 Novem ber 13th, 2008, 07:25 AM

I found the source doc for boiling H2O2. Suppo sedly its a Sandia National Lab report.
Product Vessel *Heat Source Concentration

35% Lab Gra d e G l a s s B e a k e r 7 5 0 W H o t P l a t e E x p l o d e d
12% Clairol Hair Bleach Glass Beaker 750 W H o t P l a t e E x p l o d e d
3% Aaron An tiseptic Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 80% w/w
3% W algreens Antiseptic Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W H o t P l a t e 7 7
9% W ella Ha ir Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 82
9 % S a l o n C a re Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 80
12% Salon C are Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot P late 90
12% Clairol Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot Plate 88
35% W o o d B l e a c h M u l t i p l e G l a s s B e a k e r s 7 5 0 W Hot Plate 85
35% Lab Gra d e M u l t i p l e G l a s s B e a k e r s 7 5 0 W H o t P l a t e 8 8
3% Aaron An tiseptic Single Glass Beaker 750 W Hot Plate 79
3% Aaron An tiseptic Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W H o t P l a t e 8 1
12% Salon C are Hair Bleach Multiple Glass Beakers 750 W Hot P late 91
12% Salon C are Hair Bleach Stainless Steel Saucepan 750 W Hot Plate 89
35% Lab Gra d e S i n g l e G l a s s B e a k e r 7 5 0 W H o t P l a t e 8 4
35% Lab Gra d e S i n g l e G l a s s B e a k e r 1 , 0 0 0 W Hot Plate 82
Intrinsic Novem ber 13th, 2008, 01:02 PM

S a n d m an1,
I don't suppose you could attach the d ocum ent you are referencing, or at least provide a link for us?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Azo-Clathrate Prim aries: A modification.
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-=HeX=- April 18th, 2008, 04:38 PM

I h o p e I a m not breaking any rules. I adm it that I did not UTFSE. PLease point out any m i s t a k e s .
T h i s i s a p a p er I have typed up. The synth is courtsey of SMDB.
Variations and theore tical improvemen ts to Azo-C lathrate Structures.
P a t e n t n u m b er is: US3431156.
Experim ental :
A n a l k a l i n e s o l u t i o n o f s o d i u m picrate is m ade as follows:
4.6 grams (four and six tenths gram ) pure dry pale yellow picric acid is dissolved with stirring in 180 ml hot distilled water, and
to the stirred solution is added a solution of 1.7 gram s ( o n e a n d s e v e n t e n t h s g r a m s) NaOH in 40 ml distilled water. The
s o d i u m picrate solution is transferred to an addition fun nel and kept warm in a hot water bath.
Into a tall form (Berzelius) 500 m l beaker is placed a m agnetic stirbar and 100 m l of distilled wate r. O n a stirrer hotplate is
m ade a hot solution of lead nitrate by adding 25 gram s (twenty-five grams) lead nitrate to this stirred 100 ml of hot water.
W hile stirring, this lead nitrate solution is heated to and m aintained just below the boiling point. 95 degrees centigrade is fine.
The warm sodium picrate solution is added dropwise slo wly at a rate of about one drop every two o r three seconds, into the
vortex of the vigorously stirred hot lead nitrate solution, continuing stirring and heating for ten minutes after the addition is
completed. The precipitated m aterial will initially be brig ht yellow, and change slowly in color to a darker orange, as a m ore
m ature crystalline precipitate is developed towards the end of this step in the synthesis, which results in a suspension of
crystalline basic lead picrate, possibly basic lead picrate / lead nitrate double salt, in residual lead nitrate solution.
T h e v a l v e o n the addition funnel is closed, and in the addition funnel is placed a solution of 5.3 gram s (five and three tenths
g r a m s ) o f s o dium a z i d e d i s s o l v e d i n 5 0 m l of distilled water. This sodium azide solution is added very slowly by drops, at a
rate of about one dro p every four or five seconds, to the vigorously stirre d suspension of crystals. These basic lead picrate
crystals suspended in the stirred m ixture with rem aining lead nitrate will be chang ed in color and size as they react with the
s o d i u m azide being introduced. This change is due to the formation of the host com plex and its subsequent saturation with
e n t r a p p e d l e a d a z i d e f o r m ed within the "cage-crystal matrix" of the host com plex . Heating and stirring is continued past the
e n d o f t h i s s o d i u m a z i d e a d d i t i o n , f o r a n a d d i t o n a l t e n m inutes and the heating is then discontinued, yet vigorous stirring of
the slowly cooling suspension of microcrystals is continued, maintaining the crystals in suspension for an additional 1 hour as
t h e b e a k e r a nd its stirred contents slowly air cools. These slow additions and extended periods of stirring are necessary for
g o o d c o m ple tion of the reactions and good crystal formation. Th e clathra te com plex has a very low solubility and so its crystal
d e v e l o p m ent is a bit sluggish, and req uires the very gradual, steadily m aintained and con trolled reaction conditions be
follo wed as described for best results.
The stirring is stopped and the reaction mixture is allowed to cool to room temperature. The supernatant liquid is decanted
from the crystals, and the crystals are rinsed with 50 m l of distilled water, and washed from the beaker onto a coffee filter with
a stream of distilled water from a wash bottle. The filter is placed upon a stack of paper towels to blotter away m o s t o f t h e
residual m o i s t u r e . T h e g r a n u l a t i o n m e s h o f t h e m icrocrystals is extrem ely fine, and there is a poin t at which the drying crystals
are not quite completely dry, when the m aterial m ay be freed of lum ps b y light pressure applied by a plastic spoon. The yield
of dried crystals is 24 grams, which is 100 per cent of th eory.
Try obtaining a 24 gram yield of a first class primary any other way from only 5.3 gram s o f s o d i u m azide, and the e conom y of
this com p o u n d i s s o o n r e a l i z e d .
Ok. That is the synthesis of Azo-Clathrate prim ary by Mr. Anonym ous from science m a d n e s s . I h o w e v e r h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o
test this synthesis. Thankfully Microtek and Roscoe Bodine have claimed that they have used this synthesis, unless I am
m istaken. I also recall that it worked to make a top notch primary.
I recently cam e up with an ide a. First I shall introduce it to you by telling why it should work. Please note that I have not tried it
and if anybody would be so kind could they try it and take m a n y p i c t u r e s a n d m a y b e a v i d e o o f s o m e tests compared to the
usual lead version of the Azo-Clathrate primary explosive.
The usual LEAD version of the AZO CLATHRATE PRIMARY is a very good prim ary already and is already very custom i z a b l e . S o
why meddle with an a lready very good primary explosive? The answer is simple, to im prove it.
As we all know, Silver Azide is a better primary than Lea d Azide. I have b een led to believe that Silver Picrate also e xists from
m y research. However I have not found it in CO PAE, Meyer, or Urbanski.
The theory is simple. Replace the Lead Nitrate in the synthesis with an equimolar mass of Silver Nitrate. Simple. Silver Nitrate
h a s a m olar m a s s o f a p p r o x i m a t e l y 1 6 9 . 8 8 g r a m s p e r m o l e .
Lead Nitrate has a m o l a r m a s s o f a p p r o x i m ately 331.2 gram s per m ole. Therefore, for 25 grams of Lead Nitrate one must p ut
in 12.823 gram s of Silver Nitrate, according to m y calculations, h owever I expect that I have fucked up som ewhere in there.
The end result of the synthesis, all going well, would be a Clathrate with better initiating capability due to the Lead Azide being
replaced with the better initiating com pound, Silver Azide.
I p o s t u l a t e ( M o r e o f a m educated guess really :P) That the resu ltant clathrate would be of lower density, have higher power, be
m ore brisant than an already Very brisant (insanely so) primary, albeit at a highe r cost du e to the high cost of Silver Nitrate
(32 euro for a 25 gram s a m ple of m y lab supplier, Lead Nitrate is 21 euro for a 500 gram sample.) and m a y n o t b e
economical for the lab on a budget, (2 syntheses from Silver Nitrate rather than 20 from Lead Nitrate being m a d e f r o m t h e
s a m p l e o b t a i n e d ) a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e L e a d v e r s i o n m a y e n d u p b e i n g s u p e r i o r ( o n a n e c o n o m ical basis) to the theoretically
m ore powerful Silver variant.
My only fears are that the Silver varian t may end up being photo sensitive or very unstable, like Silver Fulm inate. Any data on
Silver Picrate?
S a m e deal ran be applied to a Copper variant. Just use Copper Nitrate, with the equim olar m ass. But I shall cover that later,
however I fear it would be very water soluble. O r just plain unstable.
Finally, will som e solubility or crystallization shite stop this from working? Is some sim ple rule going to shoot m e down? Is this
a l o a d o f b u n k ? A m I a retard who deserves to be dragged out and shot? All input, be it praise or flam ing will be accepted.

I a m inclined to think that you would g et a m ixture of silver azid e a n d m a y b e s o m e o x i d e d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t p H y o u e n d u p
with. Maybe also som e silver picrate if you're using very concentrated solutions.
Coordination chemistry and crystal growth is not my strongest suit, so I can't tell you abso lutely wh at will happen. However, you
s h o u l d b e a r i n m ind that silver is m ono valent, which probably m akes it hard to build a chlathrate skeleton with it.
Having said that, it is often possible to m ake coprecipitates that look and act roughly like a hom o g e n o u s s u b s t a n c e , s o g o
ahead and try it out. Then characterize the product and tell us if it is worth anything.
I did a coprecipitation of lead azide an d styphn ate once by dissolving calculated amounts (for a 80:20 ratio of
a z i d e : s t y p h n a t e ) o f m a g n e s i u m s t y p h n a t e a n d sodium azide in water, and then adding le ad nitrate soln. I don't kn ow if the
product was a mixed salt or sim ply an intim a t e m i x o f t h e t w o , b u t i t l o o k e d h o m o g e n o u s a n d d i d n ' t s e p a r a t e o v e r s e v e r a l
years. It worked like you would expect from an intim ate m ixture (ie. m ore fuse sensitive than straight azide, very brisant an d
with very high initiating effect)

It's early in the m orning for m e and I honestly don't m e a n t o m a k e o n e o f t h o s e " u s e t h e S e a r c h e n g i n e " p o s t s . I ' m a l s o n o t
saying this in a m ean or hostile fashion....however...
Silver azide is not a "better" p rimary. It is a different primary in that it utilizes a salt with a differing weight & density. Most of
what silver azide can accomplish can be done with dextrinated le a d a z i d e . The resistance to static was done thus.....The
lessened sensitivity was done thus....And while I appreciate the effort m a d e t o e x a m i n e d i f f e r i n g t e c h n i q u e s.......(IF you had
searched).......this is already well trod ground. For those of you who may be tem p e d t o e x periment let m e first offer a word of
caution: Do not fuck with cupric (or cop per) azide in any form at. Just "don't" - period......The sensitivity of a copper azide is
very close to a touch explosive (nearly iodine trinitride sensitive) and it's really not light weight. Fingers will fly. Just take my
word on that: I'm not getting paid by the Lead Azide C orporation to keep you from switching to copper; I swear.
First Note:
The azio-clathrate was first brought to light from a patent by Roscoe who is Mr. Anonymou s....All of his posts pertaining to the
clathrate actually should be re ad as it would have saved a lot of time. R oscoe & som e other fellows R EALLY hamm ered this
issue quite in depth & well. TT BoMK he a l s o h a s a t m i n i m u m a n u n d e r g r a d c h e m background & docum ented his material
professionally & clearly. Quite a few folks HAD worked with variants in oth er metal salts and found that both Roscoe's own
variant & Example #4 in the Patent were the viable option for sustained reliability (via substitution experiments) & higher
yields. Most of those post are on SM and he did a Hell of a lot of good work.
The clathrate is a lattice crystal. That is one grown within another (or several): think of "lace". One of the m ost im portant
features of a zides is the crystal shape. IF the crystal (le a d a z i d e a s a n e x a m ple) is produced in needles the result is a highly
sensitive material that becomes virtually unusa ble. The subtle structure of picrate platelets is vital in that it inhibits rigidity to
the lattice. Take away that interaction and you have a chance at brittle clathrate structure and the results m a y be hig h er
sensitivity than desired. The reason for the clathrate's utility in energetics is both econom y & longevity. The original work with
clathrates wa s done by a Nun...go figure! Note also....th e resultant material is NOT as potent an initiator as lead azide alone.
That's a fact. It's m o r e e c o n o m ical....it stretches the base materials but it was NO T a d o p t e d b y i n d ustry.......Because the sam e
dollar stretch i n g m e c h a n i s m can be accom plished by sophisticated dextrination of the base azide. It's a dam n interesting
thing, especially if you have a m icroscope: but it's not the Holy Grail. A great m any guys were experim enting with Roscoe's
idea when he originally posted it. It's a dam n n e a t t h i n g & h e d i d s o m e d a m n fine work.
A great deal of experimentation in this area wa s accom plished a nd posted already. I not only don't want to reinvent the wheel
nor put pointers up to Science Madness but frankly.....we really should have used some searching prior to this entry. I hope by
now most people inte r e s t e d i n a z i d e s h a v e m a d e e x c u r s i o n s t o t h e j u n k y a r d s a n d gotten their share of m aterial....because
azides cost a pretty p enny if you need to go to the bio-science supply ho u s e s .
I'm repeating a lot of m aterial here (as I didn't expect the clathrate issue to start over once again) but for what it's worth...
Silver salts are generally passed over in energetics due to their expense, sensitivity (excepting the azide) & inconsistency (the
u s e o f 9 9 . x % i s d e m anded in energetic applica tions & im purities like cop per & tin have po or results). There was a tim e when
silver azide was used for detonators but with modern research, lead azide was able to accom plish all of what silver azide
appeared to do initially. Copper was basically a "no-go" salt. Except for cupric acetylide (at the turn of the 19th century or there
a b o u t s ) u s e d i n s o m e fuse bulbs, it was simply too sensitive and inconsistent for use in industry. Mercury W AS
used........Mercury does appear to have a place in energetic salts but tod ay we have the toxicity issue to contend with so that
Hg is as expensive as Ag. It's a heavy salt in n itrate format. However if you price out both : they are now about equal
depending upon purity level. Their salts cost enorm o u s a m o u n t s . A 5 0 0 g r bottle of silver nitrate and m ercury nitrate BO TH cost
about $450 today! Note finally that the costs of m etals are going through the roof. If you C AN get som e 99 .x% silver - get it!
as with other elem ents, the costs will n ot seem to lower them selves with tim e.
-=HeX=- April 19th, 2008, 06:27 PM

Charles: I did do a search, 10 m inutes after posting. I found a wealth of data by a fair few people, but non e about a silver
variant. A nun you say? Nice. But heck, with tod ays world I believe such a good explosive warrants m ore discussion, sodium
azide being expensive and rare.
I only got 32 hits on google. I was referring to silver azide being better than non dextrinated azide. Also, I believe that it is
m ore brisant. As I am ignoring cost for now to discuss a zo clathrates from a scien tific perspective. This sum mer I will attemp t
to synth it, then I will attem pt the silver variant.
I thank you all for the help. Also, Charles, thank you for the warning abo ut coppe r azide. Should I include it in my .pdf?
Microtek: you just provided a wealth of information. Thank you so m uch.
H a s a n y b o d y a n y a c t u a l h a r d n u m bers on the azo clathrates? Or have I just used wrong search term s. Also, I joined science
m adness.

W ell, realistically the clathrate was not used outside of research, because it wasn't really a dollar stretcher. It's an in teresting
p h e n o m enon, a crystal structure with a crystal (a lattice) but not a truly "better" prim ary.. A "better" primary would be a more
efficient one or less expensive. Azo-clathrate is neither. It DOES work very well. but if compared to lead azide for military or
indu strial purposes, it doesn't make the grade of "better". It is basically m o r e e x p e n s i v e t o m anufacture & somewhat less
efficient (it's still a great little item however. W e are just talking about utility here.)
There are a group of metallic tetrazenes that are som ewhat similar in that they are unique in structure and actually function
better than tetrazene alone as initiators, but th ey cost quite a bit to man ufacture..... They have a drawback of being exposu re
sensitive, having lower longevity than m any prim aries in com m o n u s a g e .
I would ALW AYS put cautions in files detailing energetics. Cupric azide is a known bad-boy. It is the by-product of the use of
copper capsules to co ntain other azides and resulted in lost accessories to the hum a n a n a t o m y.
MANY people have researched m e t a l i c a z i d e s a n d s o m e were very close to usurping lead / silver azide as the primary initiators
of choice. But som e, like mercuric azide, had little idiosyncrasies like crystal restructure wh ich m a d e t h e m hyper sensitive.
Silver azide was used in the early 1950's critical com p o n e n t d e t o nators due to it's stability. Silver azide is a damn good
initiator! It just costs too much today in light of silver itself rising in cost. Two of the most expensive salts in Technical forma t
(I'm not talking abou t Gold Chloride or Platinum bla-bla reagent, but tech-grade stuff) are Silver & Mercuric nitrate.
If one has access to nitric acid one of the nicest ways to save real m oney is to m ake one's own silver nitrate.
The "Story of the Nun " can be found in s o m e of the citations in "The Patent". She was the originator of the clathrate concept
from a weste rn chem ist's perspective. I read it years ago. The only way to find info on this and related subjects is to pour over
the Patent and find all the citations, extrapolating from articles found in the Library of Congress & som e P a tents related to the
original.
W hat you will find is a wealth of inform ation. The Exam ples cited in the P atent were actually not the only ones related to
prim ary explosives. T here was som e work done with Trinitrophloroglucinol (TPG!), Mehtylpicric acid (m -cresol), & Styphnic Acid
also! Phloroglucinol is available via photographic supply outlets for the tim e b e i n g a s m o s t p e o p l e d o n ' t k n o w a b o u t T P G .
W hen I go on about collecting books on explosives THIS is what I'm o n a b o u t . T h e y a r e r a r e a s h e n ' s t e e t h a n d c o n t a i n s o m e

really remarkable stuff. (O ff T opic) I found a book calle d "The P entaerythritols" b y Berlow, Barth, & Snow, American Chemica l
Society; last published in '58 that deta iled som e of the most innovative concepts in explosive production in W estern society.
...Techniques that are actually production secre ts of manufacturers currently. - The m aterial is in the BO OKS! This stuff will be
lost in the co ming years to all but the largest of corpora tions.
As the "old timers" like Gerald Hurst pass on, there won 't be anyone to take their place. The techniques, especially of efficient,
lab-level production will be lost with them ! Currently all that is available to the rookie researcher is industry-scale production
techniques. {I'm not kidding.} The lab -scale te chniques are being lost because all the research is being do ne in plants; not at
s m a ll scale labs like in the distant past.
-=HeX=- April 21st, 2008, 04:45 AM

Actually, getting silver or silver nitrate is not a problem for m e . T h e p r i c e c a n b e n e g a t e d t h a n k s t o c h e m class. However I do
h a v e s o m e silver m etal in stock from taking it out of broken watches (Many watches have a silver bracelet that is 99% pure,
just melt them down) m y stock is about 50 to 60 gram s.
I have searched the net extensively since I posted this thread for data on azides, azo clathrates, and picrates. I have found
out that Roscoe Bodine Considered a silver variant but did not see the point beca use of the original azo clathrates
custom izability. I have yet to obtain th e original patent due to lack of tim e .
A final note for now is that according to m y search silver picrate is not all that sensitive when in water so m i x i n g t h i s c o m p o u n d
has little to no risk. It seem s to be a little used and very stable com p o u n d .

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Spontaneous Transform ation of TATP to
DADP Using Certain Acid Catalysts
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megalomania April 22nd, 2008, 03:10 AM

The current April 2008 issue of Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics has an article concern ing a study that shows triacetone
triperoxide (TATP) transforms to diacetone diperoxide (DADP) if the acid catalyst used is sulfuric acid, perchloric acid, or
m ethanesulfonic acid. This tra nsformation does not happen if hydrochloric acid, nitric acid, or tin(IV) chloride is used as the
acid catalyst.
This transform a t i o n i s s p o n t a n e o u s a n d i t i s q u i t e r a p i d d e p e n d i n g o n t h e t e m p e r a t u r e o f s t o r a g e a n d t h e a m ount of catalyst

used. Apparently this transform ation continues until com plete co nversion to DADP is achieved. The prim ary method in the
literature (Picatinny Arsenal m ethod) recomm e n d s s u l f u ric acid as the catalyst. In light of this research sulfuric acid should not
be used to prepare acetone peroxide, but rather hydrochloric acid would be the m ost readily available alternative. Many people
already use hydrochloric in their synthesis. Furthermore, this article clearly serves as another reaso n why acetone peroxide
SHO ULD NEVER BE STO RED FO R LO NG PERIODS O F TIME!
Clearly this transform ation is related to the presence of residual acid catalyst in the finished product. Triace tone triperoxide
purified by recrystallization did not transform to diacetone diperoxide. TATP stored at 0 C still transform ed to DADP, and the
high er the te mperature the faster the transform ation.
Source:
Study of TATP: Spontaneous Transformation of TATP to DADP
Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics, Volum e 33, iss ue 2 (Ap ril 2 0 0 8 ) , p . 8 9 91
Matyas, Robert; Pachm an, Jiri; Ang, How-Ghee
-=HeX=- April 22nd, 2008, 12:58 PM

Thank you for that data! I had believed, along with m any others here, th at the catalyst did not affect the form ation of trim er or
dim eric forms. However many of us, m yself included used hydrochloric acid for the catalyst simply because of a lower reaction
temperature.
I wonder why this occurs? W as a reaction equation included in the article? Is it sim ply 2 trim e r m o l e c u l e s b e i n g d e c o m p o s e d t o
2 dim er molecules in the prescence of certain acid catalysts? Wh y do only certain acids cause this change?
I will have to have a good search because this is worrying for those who store their TCAP. O nly yesterday I had to dispose of a
s a m ple vial of TCAP, which had been lying under m y bed for 4 m onths! It had form ed huge crystals, and when I threw it into
the stream it hit a rock and detonated! It was the samp le from m y tests wade with nail polish rem over. Needless to say, I was
scared by the incident.
Ethyl April 22nd, 2008, 03:37 PM

This is very interesting.
Fortunately I always use HC l for m y AP .
I did once try to make AP with battery acid instead of hydrochloric acid. The strange thing was that the AP formed m uch more
slowly and th e yield was lower.
And disposing explosives by throwing them in a river is not a sm art thing to do. Fortunately it went off. Im agine if it didn't and
later som eone found it and it went off then. I know the chances for that to happen are low but still.
Enkidu April 22nd, 2008, 04:25 PM

Study of TATP: Spontaneous Transformation of TATP to DADP
Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics, Volum e 33, iss ue 2 (Ap ril 2 0 0 8 ) , p . 8 9 91
Matyas, Robert; Pachm an, Jiri; Ang, How-Ghee
Masonjar Chemist April 22nd, 2008, 06:06 PM

I wonder if this also accounts for AP's ability to sublim e. As one trimm er m olecule transform s t o a d i m m er, it gives a monom er
that either le aves in a vapour state, or m eets up with another m onomer and recrystallizes as a dim m er on som e other surfa ce.
I s t h i s p l a u s i b l e a t a l l ? I a s k b e c a u s e I h a v e n e v e r e x p e r i e n c e d a n y l o s s o f A P d u e t o s u b lim a t i o n e v e n o v e r a l o n g p e r i o d
when I use HCl.
EDIT: Personally, I wash and neutralize my AP with bicarbonate. Then I dissolve it with m ethanol and neutralize it again while
in solution, and after recrystallizing I g ive it a final wash with distilled water. I have a much more stable pro duct than most
m embers describe on here with no volatility or crystal growth even after 6 m onths.
megalomania April 22nd, 2008, 08:16 PM

As you can see, the article is only a brief com m unication, and it does not explain why this happens, only that it does.
I would suspect that those of you who do not wash and purify your acetone peroxide as rigorous as the professional scientists
will experience transformation from TATP to DADP, even if you use hydrochloric acid. How m any honestly follow the procedures
outlined in the literature?
ETCS (Ret) April 22nd, 2008, 11:18 PM

W ell now, this knowledge answers som e q u e s t i o n s !
Since I've be en using Sulfuric Acid for m y experim ents I've probably been dealing with DADP rather than the much desired
TATP.
The last quantity precipitated and collected was about a heaping t a b l e s p o o n .

After verifying that it had pote ncy, the rem ainder was left in an open plastic bowl exposed to room tem perature. After
a p p r o x i m ately two to three m o n t h s i t h a d a p p a rently decom posed into an inert m aterial which still had what appeared to be
t h e s a m e b u l k a s t h e original product. When subjected to flame it simply "glowed " with incandescence rather than deflagrating.
I wish now I'd kept it. I suppose I'll ha ve to m a k e a n o t h e r s m all experim ent usin g HCl to evaluate the process again. I'm very
curious to kn ow what the inert material m i g h t h a v e b e e n .
H a v e a n y o t h e r s h a d a s i m ilar experience?
Masonjar Chemist April 23rd, 2008, 12:06 AM

H a v e a n y o t h e r s h a d a s i m ilar experience?
I have once, with a batch I m ade with sulfuric that I failed to pro perly neutralized for a few days. Before I neutralized/
recrystallized it deflagrated just fine, like ordinary AP, but after neutralization with a n a m m onia solution it was comp letely inert.
I'm not sure if the chem icals used or the conditions I m entioned were the exact reason or if it was a coincidence, but this was
the only tim e I h a d e v e r u s e d a m m o n i a a n d t h e only tim e I eve r experienced it.
Ethyl April 23rd, 2008, 08:20 PM

I t a l s o o n c e h a p p e n e d t o m e. I m ade AP with HCl and H2O2 30% and neutralized it very well with NaHCO 3 and then washed it
with water. After a week or two (It was a long tim e a g o s o I d o n ' t r e m e m ber correctly, the AP was staying on a table uncovered)
I tried to ignite a sm all am ount and it didn't burn at all. It was very stran g e a s I h a v e m ade AP with the sam e m eth od m a n y
tim es and this was the only tim e i t h a p p e n e d ( I h a d s o m e AP which was one mon th old stored in a test tube covered with
plastic foil and it still burned like it should, but that one was m ade with 6% H2O2 but that shouldn't make any difference).
Nitrato May 26th, 2008, 12:15 AM

first of all: V-E-R -Y interesting thread!!!
Just to add to this: I always m a d e m y AP with battery acid and n ever had any apparent modificatio n in m y AP, even when I
stored it for two m onths (it is quite rare when I do this..I tend to burn/de tonate all within one week , at most), although this
s a m ple sublim ed quite a lot (since it was left at open, on paper).
However I always recrystallized the 'washed' AP in ethan ol , with a small am ount of NaHCO 3 a d d e d . .
Here the usu al HCl sold to people is only 9.5-10%; I tried many tim es to use it in AP synth but always get nothing (since I was
u s i n g 3 % H 2 O 2 and nail polish rem over.. HMTD very thoroughly washed is m uch safe and more powerful th an AP, as all of you
know).
M e g a a n d E n kidu thank you guys very much for this info. I always believed that H2SO4 was 'king' as catalyst.
Lewis June 5th, 2008, 07:45 PM

first of all: V-E-R -Y interesting thread!!!
Just to add to this: I always m a d e m y AP with battery acid and n ever had any apparent modificatio n in m y AP,
Then again, you never prepared AP with another acid ca talyst, so you don't have m uch to com pare it to.
By the way, HMTD being m o r e u s e f u l / s a f e r t h a n A P h a s n o t b e e n a c c e p t e d a s f a c t a r o u n d h e r e . P e r s o n a l l y , i f I h a d t o c h o o s e

between two unstable peroxides that could kill m e, I would choose the cheaper one. (AP)
Nitrato June 5th, 2008, 10:19 PM

Lewis,
Thank you to see this point in m y post. I did not was very thorough in my earlier post, that was m y lack. Sorry.
I actually m a d e b e f o r e , s o m e A P f r o m d i l u t e H C l a n d a c e t o n e ( b u t o f c o u r s e u s i n g 3 9 % H 2 O 2..). But I m ade this way only one

tim e and this was a a couple of years ago. And since I used all AP quickly after m ade, rea lly I cant compare both ways,
especially in storage behaviour. If I recall correctly, the burn test from that fresh product of HCl batch was not very different of
m y usual H2SO 4 batches.. But as you can see, that statement is far from being of any significative accuracy and importance to
this discussion.
The reason , I think, that never worked with 3% H2O2 stuff is that the reactants were very diluted. Acetone sold to comm o m
p e o p l e h e r e ( a c e t o n e nail polish remover), by local law, cant be more concentraded than 60% acetone (the rest is a m ix of
ethanol, water , dyes , heavy oils and other shits) ; HCl only 9.5-10%....And as spected is just a PITA when one uses this for
AP synthesis.
So the only way I found to this procedure work was to carefully boil down the 3% H2O2 to about ha lf its volum e. This way I
m anaged not only to made AP in better yields ( just apparent better yieds, since som e of the H2O2 certainly decom p o s e d ) b u t
HMT D as well.
But Today , fortunately, I dont need to do this, because of the more concentrated H2O2 that I have (I just bought that stuff,
without any question or the like :) )
BTW , I also agree with you that organic peroxides are n ot that g ood by being too unstable and for related storability problems,
but just easy to m a k e a n d C H E A P . S o I a l m ost always u se that explosive s, just for being cheap, powerful and quickly m a d e
without m ajor problems.
I personally prefer HMTD since it just always wo rked fine for m e and although it is m uch m ore expensible than AP, it works
better, IMHO (very fine powde r, m uch easier to compress and re latively safer than AP, etc).
BTW , regarding storability problems and other prim ary HE's, just for com parison, I have stored in my attic , for 5 years, a sm all
s a m p l e o f A g 2 C 2 * A g N O 3 u n d e r a b s o l u t e e t h a n ol that still work fine and looks like in the day that was made and that I rarely
use (I used once whe n bored to make more HMTD). But of course I will destroy that before that stuff do it the other way :(
Back on topic:
Another reason that I found this thread very interesting was due the fact that the amateur explo/pyro com m u n i t y ( a n d I , o f
course) where I live a lways believed that sulfuric acid was the *best* choice. Not only the OTC form (~30%) is relatively
stronger (comparing with dilute HCl) to use but alm o s t c h e a p a s H C l .
I always followed the Mega's procedure (that uses H2SO 4) but with a bit of m odification, since the concentration of m y
reactants were not the preferred in his page.

The procedure on my website, and the procedure often cited in the literature, is the Picitanny Arsenal procedure, which is
presumably the best m ethod around. It has on ly been in the last ten years or so, due to acetone peroxide being used in an
increasing number of im provised devices, that the com p o u n d h a s been researche d at the level of comm ercial explosives.
Since it was decided decades ago that acetone peroxide is worthless as a military or com m e r c i a l e x p l o s i v e , a c a d e m ic
evaluation of it cease d, or slowed down near enough. Now that there is a crapload of m oney being thrown into Hom e l a n d
Security and anything defense related, I would expect research into acetone peroxide to increase more than it alrea dy has. Not
necessarily the synthesis, but testing and evaluation.
I would also not be surprised if there is legislation that restricts the sale of either hydrogen peroxide or ace tone, or both, in the
near future. Such laws will larg e l y b e t o a s s u a g e t h e s h e e p l e i n g o v e r n m ent, they will want action to purge society of this
s c o u r g e o f d e m on chem icals that has been sitting on th eir childrens shelves for lo these m a n y d e c a d e s .
Taking away these ch emicals wont stop the terrorists, b ut it will hurt us, the innocent experimenters. The terrorist bom bings to
date have all been in foreign countries, so US chemical legislation wont help there, and the terrorists use industrial chem ical
supplies, which legislation is u nlikely to touch.
SafetyLast July 17th, 20 08, 07:1 3 PM

I ' v e b e e n m a k i n g A P f o r a b o u t 8 years and have always used HCl.
I think it was ~Lowry who suggested early on that HCl should be used.
Usin g H C l o v e r H 2 S O 4 m a k e s s e n s e a s i t u s u a l l y c o s t s l e s s a n d i s m o r e r e a d i l y a v a i l a b l e f o r m o s t p e o p l e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > High Powered New Explosive Developed
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tranquillity November 12th, 2008, 04:12 AM

A research team led by David E. Chavez at Los Alamos National Laboratory (USA) has now developed a novel tetranitrate ester.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081010102718.htm
The new compound contains 6 carbons, 4 nitro-ester groups and 2 nitro groups. A picture of the molecule can be seen at the link above.
It has sensitivity similar to PETN. The explosive melts at 85C and decomposes at 141C which makes it a perfect candidate for melt casting either on its own or with other
explosives. It also apparently has the highest density of any nitrate ester and power that could rival HMX.

The referenced article (with synthesis).
fluoroantimonic November 12th, 2008, 05:33 AM

Very interesting. The synthesis starting from the dioxane looks doable. As long as the dioxane isn't too hard to synthesize, it looks like it wouldn't be too hard at all. Very nice
find.
tranquillity November 12th, 2008, 08:22 AM

Working from the synthesis presented by nbk2000
50g tris(hydroxymethyl)nitromethane is prepared by reacting 20g of nitromethane and 75g 40% formaldehyde in the presence of KHCO3.
Now for the theoretical part: tris(hydroxymethyl)nitromethane is separated and purified then dissolved in toluene and p-toluenesolphonic acid. 1 molar equivalent of acetone is
added and it is refluxed with the addition of something to remove the water.
See http://www.organic-chemistry.org/protectivegroups/carbonyl/dioxanes-dioxolanes.htm
Someone with more than 1st year organic chemistry will probably come up with something better.
------------------
The synthesis can then proceed as is stated in the PDF. When compound 4 is reached I suppose it may be nitrated with H2SO4/XNO3 hopefully shouldnt affect the
existing nitro groups.
An alternative to methanol in the steps converting compound 3 to compound 4 on the pdf would probably be dry ethanol or methylated spirits.
tranquillity November 12th, 2008, 06:24 PM

EXAMPLE 1
A 100 ml round bottom flask equipped with a stir bar and reflux condenser topped with a nitrogen inlet was charged with 15.1 g (0.1 mol) of tris(hydroxymethyl) nitromethane
and 22 ml (0.3 mol) of acetone. The mixture was heated until all the tris(hydroxymethyl)nitromethane had dissolved and then was cooled to 15-20 C. The trimethylol
compound crystallized in fine needles. Boron trifluorideetherate (13 ml, 0.1 mol) was added with stirring. The temperature rose to 55 C. and crystals of product began to
separate. After five minutes, the mixture was poured into a stirred mixture of 110 ml of saturated sodium bicarbonate solution and excess ice. After stirring for 15 minutes, the
product, 2,2-dimethyl-5-hydroxymethyl-5-nitro-1,3-dioxane was collected by filtration, washed with cold water and dried in vacuo. The yield was determined to 88%.
Source http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4851588.html
Hopefully the Boron trifluorideetherate could be substituted with a different acid.
Or
Example 10 :
Following the procedure 2(B) described in this application; to a 25 ml round bottom flask equipped with a stir bar was added 1g (0.007 mol) tris(hydroxymethyl) nitormethane,
8 ml (0.07 mol) 2,2-diemthoxypropane and 2 drops concentrated hydrochloric acid. The reaction was heated to 45-50C for 30 minutes. After cooling to room temperature the
volatiles were removed in vacuo to give a white solid 2,2-dimethyl-5-hydroxy methyl-5-nitro-1,3-dioxane in 93% yield.
Source http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0348223.html
2,2-Dimethoxypropane could probably be produced from a reaction mixture containing methanol, acetone and H2SO4 to remove the water and force the equilibrium forward.
fluoroantimonic November 12th, 2008, 11:40 PM

That is some very good news!
The production of the dimethoxypropane looks pretty easy. For example:
670 g (11.5 moles) of acetone, 740 g (23 moles) of methanol and 40 g (about 1 mole) of hydrogen chloride were stirred for one hour at room temperature with a suspension
of 5.5 kg of decane and 4.1 kg (about 30 moles) of anhydrous calcium sulfate. Working up the liquid phase by distillation gave 150 g of an azeotrope of 8 g of 2,2-
dimethoxypropane, 30 g of acetone and 112 g of methanol, 177 g of an azeotrope of 83 g of the ketal and 94 g of methanol, and 910 g of 2,2-dimethoxypropane of 99%
purity. US Patent 4136124
I would bet MgSO4 would work well too, and you'd need a lot less of it since it absorbs a lot more water per gram. Also suspending it in decane wouldn't be needed for small
scale preparation, simply suspending it in the reaction mix and filtering later would probably be easier.
The production of something that powerful from such simple things as nitromethane, formaldehyde, methanol, acetone, NaOH, NaCl, H2O2, H2SO4 and XNO3 is pretty damn
amazing in my opinion. Everything looks workable, almost every precourser looks relatively easy to prepare.
The Ac2O required for the nitration is unfortunate, but I don't think it would be prohibitive. Synthesis via toluene -> benzotrichloride -> benzoyl chloride -> acetyl chloride ->
Ac2O shouldn't be too hard. And maybe you could get away without using it anyway.

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:11 PM

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y e n d o t h e r m (edited January 31, 2001).]

PHILOU Zrea lone

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:12 PM

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:14 PM

Stone April 13th, 2003, 03:25 AM

50% H2O2 (should react exothermically): 204.06 grams (170.19 mL)

35% H2O2: 291.51 grams (261mL)

xyz April 13th, 2003, 03:30 AM

Stone April 13th, 2003, 03:53 AM

From the above amounts, i'm looking at

Is more Acetone reommended? If so, how much?

static_firefly April 13th, 2003, 07:46 AM

darkdontay April 13th, 2003, 08:32 AM

Stone April 13th, 2003, 08:52 AM

darkdontay April 13th, 2003, 12:53 PM

Anthony April 13th, 2003, 02:37 PM

kingspaz April 13th, 2003, 03:00 PM

darkdontay April 14th, 2003, 05:39 AM

Who would you guys consruct one?

Efraim_barkbit April 18th, 2003, 09:59 AM

I poured in 20ml H2O2 in the jar, and added 15ml of acetone.

By the way, any of you had AP go BOOM by itself?

knowledgehungry April 18th, 2003, 01:35 PM

Anthony April 18th, 2003, 02:57 PM

Efraim_barkbit April 18th, 2003, 06:02 PM

knowledgehungry April 18th, 2003, 06:23 PM

Efraim_barkbit April 18th, 2003, 06:58 PM

rooster April 18th, 2003, 08:02 PM

xyz April 18th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Large amounts of pure AP is not a good idea though.

drshneb June 5th, 2003, 10:17 AM

metafractal June 6th, 2003, 10:12 AM

rooster June 6th, 2003, 01:31 PM

Anthony June 6th, 2003, 02:25 PM

metafractal June 7th, 2003, 03:40 AM

Arthis June 8th, 2003, 04:11 PM

GibboNet June 18th, 2003, 12:22 AM

Cyclonite July 24th, 2003, 09:46 AM

Sorry im off subject but its good info

knowledgehungry July 24th, 2003, 12:45 PM

gliper July 24th, 2003, 02:59 PM

knowledgehungry July 24th, 2003, 07:20 PM

Cyclonite July 26th, 2003, 09:09 AM

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Anthony March 17th, 2003, 08:15 PM

[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y b l a ckadder (edited February 02, 2001).]

READ THAT TEN TIMES OVER

h o w m u c h a c e t o n e a n d h y d r o g e n p e r o x ide must i take to produce much Ap ???

I will be better with m y english!!!

UUU UHHHUU HUHUHU H