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1. High Powered New Explosive Developed (5 replies)

2. Spontaneous Transformation of TATP to DADP Using Certain Acid Catalysts (13 replies)
3. Azo-Clathrate Primaries: A modification. (5 replies)
4. H2O2 & Tang? (26 replies)
5. First atomic bomb diagram (4 replies)
6. Should I upload Machining Simulation Software? (1 replies)
7. Tmdd (10 replies)
8. Extracting Lead Styphnate from .22's with acetone (9 replies)
9. Study on the Parameters Affecting Acetone Peroxide Synthetic Yield (13 replies)
10. Comparative study of OTC Acetone in AP Synthesis (5 replies)
11. Railway Torpedos & Boyhood Memories. (6 replies)
12. ANL-Ascorbate (3 replies)
13. Vacuum effect from Projectile (2 replies)
14. Micro-Explosions When Hitting Two (Unmodified, Off-The-Shelf) Hammers Together (11 replies)
15. H2O2-free AP (13 replies)
16. Explosive thermite? - Need some helps (4 replies)
17. Exotic rocket fuel as explosive? (17 replies)
18. Peroxide Watergel Explosive (2 replies)
19. Copper Carbide (5 replies)
20. AN and Propane? (4 replies)
21. Lead Azide Big Crystals (4 replies)
22. Tetraacetone Tetraperoxide (11 replies)
23. NC/NG/NM/NH4 stabilized Detonator (6 replies)
24. A Noob's Success with AP... (15 replies)
25. Nitrocellulose main query. (51 replies)
26. Lead Styphnate as primer to Picric Acid (Questions) (11 replies)
27. Hexanitroethane (8 replies)
28. Sensible Sythesis, or dangerous dud? (1 replies)
29. Nitration of Hydroquinone (2 replies)
30. Nitration of Elmer's Glue (Polyvinyl Nitrate) (40 replies)
31. Another spontainious detonation mixture and safty lesson (2 replies)
32. Tetraazidomethane (0 replies)
33. Nonex (4 replies)
34. Just purchased (9 replies)
35. AP Pellets (37 replies)
36. AP Yields (35 replies)
37. questions about KClO4 (11 replies)
38. Triethanolaminetrinitrate (TEATN) Synthesis (1 replies)
39. Trinitroethanol Synthesis (1 replies)
40. Need fish bomb help (22 replies)
41. Tris(nitromethyl)amin, The Way from NTA (11 replies)
42. Nitrogen Sulfide - Alternative Preparation (3 replies)
43. Picric acid question (7 replies)
44. Lead Styphnate Preparation (0 replies)
45. Oxygen/Acetylene (29 replies)
46. Yellow powder (75 replies)
47. MDC (Mild Detonating Cord) (3 replies)
48. A lot of interresting AN-Mix explosives ! (1 replies)
49. NJ3 with potassium jodine (7 replies)
50. Anfo-k (63 replies)
51. Annm + H2so4 (5 replies)
52. Nickel Hydrazine Nitrate (NHN) (5 replies)
53. Azido-Dithiocarbonic Acid (ADCA), Analogs and Derivatives (2 replies)
54. Decomposition of Silver Acetylide/D-Salt (13 replies)
55. The best ignition for a fire bottle (23 replies)
56. Acetone Peroxide Malfunction(?) (24 replies)
57. Interesting "explosive" reaction? (2 replies)
58. Diethyl Ketone Peroxide (2 replies)
59. Shock tube detonator (9 replies)
60. Products of recrystallising AP with other explosives? (13 replies)
61. potassium picrate from potassium salicylate (4 replies)
62. Making acetylene gas (2 replies)
63. Ferrates of any pyrotechnic use ?? (2 replies)
64. "concentrated" peroxide (3 replies)
65. Copper Fulminate (10 replies)
66. Is IN3 an explosive? (5 replies)
67. How to make H2N2O2? (7 replies)
68. Explosive Falsities (69 replies)
69. Unbeliavable AP misfire (22 replies)
70. Fun snaps/ throwdowns (21 replies)
71.
72.
69.
70.
71. Method of storing AP indefinitely? (25 replies)
72. Explosive Napalm (9 replies)
73. AP warning story (9 replies)
74. Chromated Lead Azide (1 replies)
75. TATNB (Triazidotrinitrobenzene) (6 replies)
76. Isotope tagging of Ammonium Nitrate. (22 replies)
77. The Sandwich-Mine (0 replies)
78. Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide [Is This Possible?] (2 replies)
79. Primary Explosives a very important inquiry! (53 replies)
80. Lead Acetate for Primaries (7 replies)
81. silver acetylide problems (21 replies)
82. potasiumpikrate (16 replies)
83. Exploding targets (75 replies)
84. AP calculation program. (9 replies)
85. Azides from Hydrazine Salts GB128014 and GB129152 (4 replies)
86. barium chromate substitution (3 replies)
87. Nitrocellulose? Something wrong. (44 replies)
88. AP vs Flash (24 replies)
89. Experiements: Sodium Nitronate as a Primary (29 replies)
90. AP Experiment (17 replies)
91. exploding Bridgewire dets (73 replies)
92. Cyclotriacetone Peroxide??? (3 replies)
93. AP with CrO3? (3 replies)
94. Acetone Peroxide/Aluminium (24 replies)
95. Molten AP (32 replies)
96. my favourite primary explosive (197 replies)
97. Manganese Heptoxide / Xylene (21 replies)
98. Calcium hypoclorite and fuel oils (43 replies)
99. Danger Ap! (96 replies)
100. DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE TO GET KNo3 IN HK ?? (1 replies)
101. Aceton Peroxide... Where??? (50 replies)
102. AP in Iraq (26 replies)
103. new primary explosives (8 replies)
104. Nitro Acetone Naphthalene Peroxide (16 replies)
105. questions about FAE's - Archive File (0 replies)
106. HMTD Question - Archive File (0 replies)
107. AP First-Timer - Archive File (0 replies)
108. nasty reaction - Archive File (3 replies)
109. Unwashed AP more sensitive? - Archive File (18 replies)
110. Stabilising NI3 - Archive File (0 replies)
111. NaClO3 + S + C - Archive File (0 replies)
112. Lampblack as a fuel/sensitizer - Archive File (0 replies)
113. Napta (liquid), AN, AL, Sodium Hypochlorate... Archive File (0 replies)
114. copper Acetylide (38 replies)
115. Black AP! (24 replies)
116. Trimer vs. Dimer (19 replies)
117. Washing HMTD and AP - Archive File (0 replies)
118. HMTD formula - Archive File (2 replies)
119. Who voted mekap off the island? - Archive File (0 replies)
120. better than bp - Archive File (0 replies)
121. KNO3? - Archive File (0 replies)
122. MAP gas - Archive File (7 replies)
123. Potassium and sodium chlorates - Archive File (0 replies)
124. Potassium Chlorate Explosives - Archive File (0 replies)
125. Cloudy HMTD solution - Archive File (0 replies)
126. HMTD in Al pipes - Archive File (1 replies)
127. peroxides and metals? - Archive File (0 replies)
128. AP swimming at top of water ? - Archive File (12 replies)
129. MF,HTMD and AP - Archive File (1 replies)
130. Can HMTD be a safe primary explosive? - Archive File (0 replies)
131. AP property's - Archive File (0 replies)
132. acid concentration limit - Archive File (2 replies)
133. Acetone Peroxide by volume yeild calculations - Archive File (0 replies)
134. AP crystals forming? - Archive File (0 replies)
135. Really not impressed with AP or HTMD - Archive File (0 replies)
136. Mouldable AP - Archive File (0 replies)
137. ther-peroxides? - Archive File (1 replies)
138. A Big charge of Ap - Archive File (0 replies)
139. Enneaheptite Pentanitrate - Archive File (0 replies)
140. something to try? - Archive File (2 replies)
141. Explosive flour - Archive File (16 replies)
142. Plastic explosive from HMTD - Archive File (0 replies)
143. Dimer or trimer ? - Archive File (0 replies)
144. Dibenzoyl Peroxide - Archive File (2 replies)
145. AP power comparison - Archive File (1 replies)
146. Ap ping pong ball putty first time heard of - Archive File (0 replies)
147. which is better HMTD or AP - Archive File (11 replies)
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148. AP & Blue Tack - Archive File (0 replies)
149. ap pressing - Archive File (0 replies)
150. Anyone know whats happening here? - Archive File (0 replies)
151. LOX - Archive File (0 replies)
152. NI3 - Archive File (12 replies)
153. Improvised Propane/Oxygen Explosives - Archive File (0 replies)
154. the best fireball fuel? - Archive File (0 replies)
155. Fulminating powder - Archive File (8 replies)
156. H2O2 Explosive - Archive File (5 replies)
157. NaNO3 explosives - Archive File (0 replies)
158. The Beginner's Guide To Acetone Peroxide (650 replies)
159. Storing the AP (97 replies)
160. A simple question regarding perchlorates. - Archive File (0 replies)
161. Failed FAE - Archive File (3 replies)
162. Fuel to gas ratio - Archive File (0 replies)
163. stirring question - Archive File (6 replies)
164. AP containers - wtf? - Archive File (0 replies)
165. dissolved AP - Archive File (0 replies)
166. AP and BLACK POWDER - Archive File (1 replies)
167. Weird HMTD Reaction - Archive File (1 replies)
168. Detonation products of AP? - Archive File (0 replies)
169. AP question - Archive File (0 replies)
170. AP putty with ping pong balls - Archive File (0 replies)
171. Idea? - Archive File (0 replies)
172. ap and p.permanganate - Archive File (0 replies)
173. Whats a good impact sensitive low explosive - Archive File (0 replies)
174. Question on cratermakers - Archive File (14 replies)
175. Easiest to make low explosive - Archive File (3 replies)
176. sulfur - Archive File (0 replies)
177. Balloons! - Archive File (0 replies)
178. Black Powder - Archive File (0 replies)
179. Ammonium permanganate - Archive File (3 replies)
180. TACP - Tetramine copper perchlorate - Archive File (0 replies)
181. grenade compound - Archive File (0 replies)
182. KMnO4 and H2SO4 - Archive File (14 replies)
183. AFPO.....just another kewlish ex? - Archive File (1 replies)
184. Naphtha (liquid), AN, AL, Sodium Hypochlorate - Archive File (0 replies)
185. Na2CO3/H2O2 complex. (3 replies)
186. "power" of different explosives?? (21 replies)
187. Nitrobenzoyl Peroxide (8 replies)
188. Silveracetylide (1 replies)
189. HMTD synth. (19 replies)
190. AP How sensitive to heat? - Archive File (1 replies)
191. Dry HMTD - Archive File (0 replies)
192. Filtering AP - Archive File (24 replies)
193. Ionic Equations for AP - Archive File (0 replies)
194. pic of ap yield w/ baquacil - Archive File (0 replies)
195. benzoyl peroxide - Archive File (0 replies)
196. Best mixture for AP? - Archive File (0 replies)
197. How Much AP? - Archive File (30 replies)
198. AP Mixture - Archive File (0 replies)
199. Molten AP - Archive File (0 replies)
200. AP with 35% H2O2 - Archive File (0 replies)
201. Oxalic acid HMTD - Archive File (0 replies)
202. AP stir or shake? - Archive File (0 replies)
203. AP catalysts - Archive File (0 replies)
204. AP sensibility and recipie - Archive File (0 replies)
205. Uses for HMTD - Archive file (0 replies)
206. how far away is safe? (5 replies)
207. Copper Acetylide - Archive Thread (2 replies)
208. Collodion - Archive Thread (0 replies)
209. AP rocket fuel? - Archive file (1 replies)
210. Thing that you can make with "Acetone Peroxide" - Archive file (0 replies)
211. gas explosions - Archive file (55 replies)
212. CO2 bomb w/sterno - Archive file (0 replies)
213. Decomp of Acetone Peroxide, a journal article (43 replies)
214. Interesting idea for foam explosive (7 replies)
215. flash (1 replies)
216. Lead Styphnate suitable primary? (45 replies)
217. UK Acetone Peroxide Chemicals (3 replies)
218. Organc peroxides (4 replies)
219. Koktail "ARSOVA" (20 replies)
220. APAN as a primary for salutes and the like (11 replies)
221. Holy grail organic peroxide! (395 replies)
222. Wood stick - Archive (0 replies)
223. whoa, weird AP - Archive file (0 replies)
224. This Normal? - Archive file (0 replies)
225.
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225. transporting AP and HTMD - Archive file (7 replies)
226. Surely the solution isn't meant to be pink?!?! - archive file (0 replies)
227. PEROXYACETONE - archive file (0 replies)
228. PEROXIDES - Archive file (0 replies)
229. nitrocellulose - Archive file (0 replies)
230. Loudness Of Acetone Peroxide? - archive file (0 replies)
231. Drying AP - Archive file (0 replies)
232. Detonation? - Archive file (0 replies)
233. "cutting" Acetone Peroxide - archive file (0 replies)
234. Color - archive file (0 replies)
235. ...something went really weird with my AP....really wierd! - Archive file (0 replies)
236. ap sludge - archive file (0 replies)
237. Shokwave from AP - archive file (19 replies)
238. breakdown of ap putty - archive file (0 replies)
239. Pictures of AP or HTMD Crystals - archive file (0 replies)
240. AP+Picric Acid - archive file (0 replies)
241. AP Mishap - archive file (0 replies)
242. Ap IN FRIDGE NOW!? - archive file (0 replies)
243. Friction Sensivtive AP - archive file (0 replies)
244. AP crystals - archive file (6 replies)
245. ap catalyst to prevent or slow breakdown - archive file (0 replies)
246. AP + Sulphur - archive file (0 replies)
247. Volatility -archive file (0 replies)
248. plastic explosive -archive file (0 replies)
249. 3% compared to 6% H2O2 -archive file (53 replies)
250. Failed AP? -archive file (0 replies)

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251. AP manufacture..risk factor? -archive file (0 replies)

252. AP -archive file (23 replies)
253. AN Fertilizer -Archive File (0 replies)
254. NaCLO3/vaseline charge -Archive File (17 replies)
255. Calcium Hypochlorite explo -Archive FIle (1 replies)
256. APAN failure! (6 replies)
257. APrc lab:improvised lab procedures and chems (40 replies)
258. Lead Fulminate? (10 replies)
259. HMTD accident (33 replies)
260. detonator without a casing (2 replies)
261. Huge AP Crystals (54 replies)
262. My oxi-ap (13 replies)
263. Potassium & Ammonium Nitramide (3 replies)
264. Plastique from Righteous Revenge (4 replies)
265. HMTD Synth With Pics (102 replies)
266. ATF updates its list of regulated explosives... (14 replies)
267. nitro powder (8 replies)
268. Mix AP with...? (0 replies)
269. DDNP troubles (91 replies)
270. max yield for CTAP (23 replies)
271. Plastic bonded HTMD (15 replies)
272. New HMTD synthesis? (38 replies)
273. Flash powder measurments (2 replies)
274. tmdd (21 replies)
275. Cast acetone peroxide (33 replies)
276. Flash Without A Scale (17 replies)
277. Lead Azide (36 replies)
278. Napalm dilvery system (8 replies)
279. KMnO4 Flash-Powder (25 replies)
280. sulfuric acid from sulfur flour (2 replies)
281. prep of carbamide peroxide (6 replies)
282. Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide (166 replies)
283. Bullet Detonators (3 replies)
284. relatively safe detonators (11 replies)
285. NH3.NI3 with iodine solution... (19 replies)
286. AP solution evaporation -Increased Yields- (7 replies)
287. AP Plasticizer (122 replies)
288. H2O2 BP (15 replies)
289. Ammonipulver (5 replies)
290. The final flashpowder contest (68 replies)
291. Peroxide creme (11 replies)
292. Ceramic casings (12 replies)
293. Anyone know.. (20 replies)
294. Making Pyrodex Useful As A Lift Charge (9 replies)
295. Impact Detonator (10 replies)
296. Silver Azide (8 replies)
297. Re-crystilized? (18 replies)
298. Lead Picrate (35 replies)
299. Chorate - sulfur mixtures incompatible? (27 replies)
300. How to store BP (24 replies)
301. Flash Powder Info from Ebay (14 replies)
302. Best Aluminum for Flash? (59 replies)
303. My first attempt (38 replies)
304. nitrogentriiodide (17 replies)
305. Mercury Fulminate.. (101 replies)
306. Sugar Black Powder (68 replies)
307. 8 month old AP (24 replies)
308. Tannerite Exploding Targets (156 replies)
309. Black Powder, Density (5 replies)
310. Comparing AP and HMTD (87 replies)
311. Too much catalyst? (7 replies)
312. 'Safe' non-metallic detonator. (22 replies)
313. diff acetylene (12 replies)
314. Vitamin C and AP (21 replies)
315. Baquacil (31 replies)
316. AP wasnt created (27 replies)
317. whats the next step to take as a pyro after BP (9 replies)
318. Al (17 replies)
319. Caseless Detonator (11 replies)
320. Acetone peroxide - special instructions? (44 replies)
321. Black Powder (44 replies)
322. HMTD (365 replies)
323. Blasting caps... (69 replies)
324. Golden flash? (2 replies)
325. DDNP Synthesis (1 replies)
326. where can i get fuse in denmark (12 replies)
327. Radiator sealant?? (11 replies)
328. Military flash powder and a whole lot of water (4 replies)
329. oxygen/acetylene mixture (57 replies)
330. anode materials (32 replies)
331. "Power" of flashpowders (84 replies)
332.
330.
331.
332. First explosive? (3 replies)
333. Compression in firecrackers? (13 replies)
334. the chemistry of fulminating powder? (28 replies)
335. Info on Potassium Picrate (3 replies)
336. circular charges (4 replies)
337. Mercury Fulminate desensibilizing (17 replies)
338. "ANSO" instead of ANFO (9 replies)
339. Chemically Ignited FAE (42 replies)
340. Poor phone (5 replies)
341. Fuse?? (33 replies)
342. Silver acetylide - a word of warning (28 replies)
343. Tetrameric!?! (44 replies)
344. free nichrome wire (32 replies)
345. KNO3 (10 replies)
346. pressure question.... (14 replies)
347. electric spark ignition comps? (21 replies)
348. Dextrin (13 replies)
349. Flashes (5 replies)
350. My experiences with chlorate from bleach! (31 replies)
351. Al powder (2 replies)
352. Detonator, easy, save and storable (22 replies)
353. How do you set off your balloons? (16 replies)
354. AN uses other than explosive? (5 replies)
355. Triangle salutes (17 replies)
356. Calcium hypoclorite (20 replies)
357. KMNO4 source (34 replies)
358. how dangerous is flash (59 replies)
359. My Sp! (24 replies)
360. Gasless Time Delay Fuse (2 replies)
361. detonators (9 replies)
362. Powerful oxidiziers and reducing agents (29 replies)
363. NEW OXIDIZER (A PEROXIDE) (32 replies)
364. Inexperienced- Please Advise (9 replies)
365. Synthesis procedure for picramic acid (2 replies)
366. thermit bomb (20 replies)
367. getting Al the electrolytic way? (20 replies)
368. Mercury fulminate question (11 replies)
369. DDNP procedure (28 replies)
370. Lead Nitroanilate (5 replies)
371. Damn guys (5 replies)
372. Smokeless powder (13 replies)
373. washing ap (18 replies)
374. Potassium Chloride (6 replies)
375. Potassium perchlorate production (30 replies)
376. Hypothetical, alternative method to chlorate manufacture.. (9 replies)
377. saltpetre (22 replies)
378. Ex. putty (41 replies)
379. Asprin toSodium Salycillate (6 replies)
380. black powder manufacture (25 replies)
381. C6H3N3O9Pb (32 replies)
382. a little help here, please (18 replies)
383. The Great Hydrgen Salute Can Cannon (7 replies)
384. KMnO4 + S===}? (13 replies)
385. german blackhead al (13 replies)
386. AP toxicity (64 replies)
387. agnesium cord (33 replies)
388. Detonate flashpowders ? (91 replies)
389. WHERE TO GET kno3 from IN THE UK?? (29 replies)
390. 50%h202 (30 replies)
391. Whats the best way to grind up aluminum? (78 replies)
392. Favourite fuse (60 replies)
393. vitamin c flashpowder (43 replies)

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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > KMnO4 + S===}?
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simply RED May 22nd, 2001, 06:22 PM

This is very useful mixture( 2 parts KMnO4, 1 part S in volume). It burns fast and creates about 800 degrees celsius. Ive used it for many applications, from rockets to
CO2 cartridge cratermakers. It is ignited when 98%H2SO4 drops on it, Im sure everyone here is expert on it . But I doubt what is the real chemical reaction that
takes place during its burning.
I think it is something allike:
2KMnO4 + 5S = K2SO4 + 2MnS+ 2SO2
or when the quantity of the sulphur is lower:
2KMnO4 + 2S=K2SO4+ MnO +SO2
What do you think?
PHILOU Zrealone May 23rd, 2001, 05:28 AM

To help you on this we need the parts in weights!!!
Volumes are too variable...also I think it has been discussed less than 2 month ago!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
simply RED May 23rd, 2001, 07:20 AM

Immagine I mix the KMnO4 and the sulphur in 2:5 molar proportion. That means:
M(KMnO4) is 39+55+16.4=158
Ar(S)=32
158.2=316
32.5=160
316/160=2
2 parts KMnO4, 1 part sulphur in weight.
Will the upper reaction:
(2KMnO4+5S=K2SO4+2MnS+2SO2) take place when I ignite it?

2KMnO4 + 5S --> 2MnO2 + K2O + SO2 + 4S
Here you would have an excess of S!
Changing the ratios might induce slightly different products of reaction but usually the more stable products (oxydes here) are formed!
I would never expect sulfur to displace oxygen from an oxyde since sulfur is less electronegative than oxygen!
This is proven by
CuSO4 + heat --> CuO + SO2 + 1/2O2
the reaction is not
CuSO4 + heat --> CuS + 2O2
otherwise all sulfates would be good oxydisers what is never the case (except with very powerful reducers!).
------------------
simply RED May 24th, 2001, 04:16 PM

I made an experiment:
I ignited some mixture of KMnO4 and S. Then I got the solid that is left after the burning and mixed it with some water. Some of it dissolved and some remained a
precipitate(some of it got to coloid disperse phase). Then I mixed the solution with 60% nitric acid. H2S gas formed immediately and it started to smell like bad eggs(U know
how it smells). I don't know why but some sulfide compound forms anyway. If you don't believe this, try it at home, very easy.
Ilustration of the reaction of the H2S giving off.
A2+ + S2- + 2H+=H2S +A2+
AS is the sulphide.(A- imaginary 2 valent element)
Anthony May 25th, 2001, 03:45 PM

I think the Al and S combine on burning to form aluminium sulphide (AlS?), when mixed with a mineral acid H2S.
PHILOU Zrealone May 28th, 2001, 05:35 AM

Yes a little of MnS, Mn2S3 and MnS2 can be formed due to the fact that any chemical reaction is not 100% complete...there is always a little percentage of side reaction... and
a very little % of H2S can be smell!
Imagine a little H2O inside your mix...

H2O + S2+ heat <==> H2S + SO
H2S + K2O --> K2S + H2O
K2S + 2HNO3 --> 2KNO3 + H2S
Also by the way SO2 solution smells a bit like rotten eggs!
And K2O + SO2 --> K2SO3
K2SO3 + 2HNO3 --> 2KNO3 + H2O + SO2
Your only possibility to be sure of what happens is to make a titration of the H2S! (by precipitation of a very unsoluble sulfide!).
Ahh yes, btw, when you mix things and set fire to them, the % in the mix can influence the reaction products; but the heat of the reaction also and this last one can be
influenced by the amount of mix that is burned!
4Al + 3S2 --> 2Al2S3

Al2S3 + 3H2O --> Al2O3 + 3 H2S
Al2O3 + 3H2O --> 2Al(OH)3
------------------
simply RED May 28th, 2001, 06:51 AM

It will be good to measure the pH of the solution. If K2O forms in big quantities it will be highly basic(pH>7). It is very bad I haven't got phenol phatalein or limus paper to
measure it.
[This message has been edited by simply RED (edited May 28, 2001).]
Demolition June 1st, 2001, 10:35 AM

Tonight I experimented with some KMnO4 and S,I mixed it in a ration of 2 parts KMnO4 to 1 part S.Here are some photos I took.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/1.gif?bcc4_Z7Akroaz9mD
15 grams of powder being mixed(not grinded)
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/2.gif?bcc4_Z7AxXynJAqO
5-7 grams of Powder
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/3.gif?bcc4_Z7AUYyMRR3e
Starting
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/4.gif?bcc4_Z7A4sm41NjN
Starting
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited June 01, 2001).]
Demolition June 1st, 2001, 10:49 AM

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/5.gif?bcc4_Z7A13IyxQpw
Warming up now!
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/6.gif?bcc4_Z7AeUN3U9Do
Going well now http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/778c11ca/bc/My+Documents/7.gif?bcc4_Z7A6EMLtj04
Starting to slow up http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
I recommend this LE. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
(hope the pics work)

(sweet,they did http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif)
Demolition
the freshmaker June 2nd, 2001, 09:22 AM

sorry Demolition, but your pics doesn't workhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Demolition June 3rd, 2001, 12:20 AM

Sorry guys(and girls).They seem to work fine on my computer all the time.I uploaded them to my Yahoo Briefcase and then linked them from there.Any ideas what's wrong or
does anyone know a better place to upload them(I tried Angelfire but I couldn't seem to get it to work)
Demolition
BrAiNFeVeR August 1st, 2001, 11:15 AM

I can't get my Yahoo briefcase pics to work either ;-( . Naturally you need to share them, so i did, but when i tried it in a forum, it still did not work ...
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"Mess with me, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your brains on the ceiling"
[This message has been edited by BrAiNFeVeR (edited August 01, 2001).]
Mick August 2nd, 2001, 09:44 AM

......
[ June 13, 2002, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > WHERE TO GET kno3 from IN THE UK??
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View Full Version : WHERE TO GET kno3 from IN THE UK??
daturk2000 February 24th, 2001, 09:47 AM

Hey all, i've recently got addicted to making kno3+sugar smoke bombs. My friend steals the kno3 from college but i was wondering if there was anybody that knows where i
could buy it from in the UK coz firstly, i dont like the idea of stealing things and secondly i've spent ages searching the net on where i can buy it from in the united kingdom but
have been unsuccessful http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/frown.gif.
any help would be much apprecciated!
thanx!
Mr Cool February 24th, 2001, 10:38 AM

a clue: Find a large agricultural supplier. I promised I wouldn't pass on my exact source, in case they got suspicious of loads of KNO3 orders or something and stopped selling it.
But all large suppliers will have it and NH4NO3 as well at great prices.
blackadder February 24th, 2001, 10:53 AM

yeah, no one post the real url, it can't get out to the kewls!
daturk2000 February 24th, 2001, 11:46 AM

thanx 4 the clue mr cool, but there are so many agricultural suppliers in the UK its like looking 4 a needle in a hay stack. i would b REALLY greatful if u could narrow your clue
down a bit!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
safe! Originally posted by Mr Cool:
a clue: Find a large agricultural supplier. I promised I wouldn't pass on my exact source, in case they got suspicious of loads of KNO3 orders or something and stopped selling it.
But all large suppliers will have it and NH4NO3 as well at great prices.
Bitter February 24th, 2001, 12:17 PM

To be quite honest, I think you would be better off getting it from abroad (ie a pyrotechnic supplier). Chemical companies in the UK ask too many questions.
kingspaz February 24th, 2001, 05:38 PM

i make mine from ammonium nitrate. just thought it was worth mentioning.
Foodos February 24th, 2001, 09:34 PM

king, alot of people have the big problem getting AN, and KNO3 though.

ANY supplier should have it. Just look at the phone number on a bag of peat or something, phone 'em up and ask if they have a catalogue they could send you.
Bitter: Chemical companies do ask questions, but not agricultural places! And getting it from abroad costs LOADS!!
Skylighter sells it for something like 2/lb, if you buy it in bulk. You must then add on shipping, and wait for months to get it.
I got 55lb, at 0.58/lb (=32), postage was 2 and it came in ten days!
So:
55lb from my place costs a total of 34.
55lb from Skylighter costs a total of 147.
55lb of NH4NO3 from the same agricultural place costs about 27 I think, + 2 postage.
Anthony February 25th, 2001, 04:21 PM

daturk2000, your occupation is "anarchist"? You need to change that.
J February 25th, 2001, 08:36 PM

If you're just making small smoke bombs, you can get something called 'Imp Chimney Cleaner' from some hardware stores. I've never bought any (1 for a small packet is
expensive, and I have plenty of pure KNO3 myself anyway), but according to the packet it 'contains Saltpeter' and has the oxidizer symbol on the pack. Beware though, it
might be NaNO3, and it will almost certainly have impurities that might need to be removed. It is much more commonly sold than K/Na nitrate fertilizer.
You could ask the garden center to get some in too. It's not a popular product, which is why most places don't stock it. All pyros face this problem when starting out, eventually
you'll find a good source if you keep looking ;-)
At an agricultural supply house near me, AN fertilizer can be bought for <10 for 50Kg :-)
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John
'Lofty' Wiseman
Mr Cool February 26th, 2001, 04:14 PM

<10, for 50 KILOGRAMS??!!!!!!!
Could you possibly e-mail me the address or URL of that place? I don't want to buy AN from my place in case they get suspicious (KNO3 and AN to the same place, in the
middle of a city http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif ), and also that is CHEAP!
Thanks

Check your email.
I can't guarantee it's < 10, but I'm 99% certain. It definitely won't be more than 15. This place is used to selling it by the ton, but they also do 50Kg bags.
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman

ThanQ!
Jhonbus February 27th, 2001, 03:44 PM

The Imp Chimney Cleaners contain KNO3 and sawdust. It's a bugger to separate them without dissolving and then crystallising out the KNO3 though.
SATANIC March 2nd, 2001, 10:28 PM

I live in aus, and i cannot get KNO3 from an agricultural supplier because they won't deliver, and i'm too young to drive. where else acn it be found (cheap i hope)
oxyrad March 3rd, 2001, 12:40 AM

Where do you live in Aus.I live in WA in Midland and i know a great place to get KNO3 and Amonium Nitrate,Sulfur etc
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YZ's are the best
Ericm115 August 19th, 2001, 08:08 PM

ok, Im going to try again since im on topic this time.. I live in South Carolina, USA. Does anyone know where to get things like AN from a supply company around here? Theres
lots of farming around here, but all places Ive looked only sell in huge quantities. Thanks -
Berserker August 19th, 2001, 08:37 PM

There are agriculutural suppliers down in Kwinina that sell KNO3/NH4NO3 in 50kg bags for ~$30.

Where exactly is Kwinina? Thanks
Ericm115 August 20th, 2001, 03:32 AM

Also, Im not really too worried about being put on some kind of list (should i be?) How reliable is http://www.sciencealliance.com? Is it safe to order from there? thanks -
Berserker August 20th, 2001, 05:28 AM

I meant Kwinana. It's a place in Australia, sorry. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
Victim August 20th, 2001, 09:15 PM

J, is it possible that you would send me the location of that place for the KNo3? And for those of you wondering about this IMP shite, I'll go buy some tomorrow and get some
pictures. (yet another post of mine with pictures)
Disturbed August 21st, 2001, 06:59 AM

Another source of KNO3 is stump remover.. I've bought that, it looks just like prilled KNO3 to me. It was more expensive than from Skylighter, as it cost me 5.50$ for 1lb.
One last thing, make sure you have some sort of alibi if you're calling to buy NH3NO3 or KNO3, etc, from a fertilizer place.. I called some asking if they sold KNO3, first thing
they asked is if I was making bombs. So now I just use a complex story about having a big garden, wanting to experiment, blah blah blah.
Mr Cool August 21st, 2001, 07:47 AM

Disturbed: I'm guessing you're <18 years old, right? Because they won't ask questions if you sound old, they just don't expect younger people to be into gardening.
Anthony August 21st, 2001, 04:50 PM

The onlt stump remover I've seen in the UK contains ammonium sulphamate. I guess it actually kills the stump rather than allowing you to burn it as you do with KNO3 stump
remover.
mr.evil October 1st, 2001, 01:48 PM

hey anthony,
look at that guy: "Daturk2000".

take a look at his profile, it says;
OCCUPATION: Anarchist(!).
INTERESTS: making bombs(!!!).
Location: Afghanistan(!!!!!!!!!).
i think this guy is an KeWl bomber.

any comments?
------------------
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down"
Wherner von Braun
Mr Cool October 1st, 2001, 02:38 PM

Yes, he probably is. But since he's made a total of 6 posts, the last one being on 10th March, does it really matter? Why bring it up? It's not as if he's causing a problem.
mr.evil October 1st, 2001, 03:34 PM

i don't know.
i thaught that kewls are forbidden to come here. sorry if i'm wrong.
------------------
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down"
Wherner von Braun
J October 1st, 2001, 05:31 PM

Let us be the judge of that. As Mr Cool has pointed out, he hasn't posted in ages.
There was no need to bring up this thread again just to say that.
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://forumarchive.tripod.com)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
nbk2000 October 2nd, 2001, 04:31 AM

Don't be too harsh on dude.
While true he brought up an old post just to make a stupid comment, at least he DID read an old post, which is a lot better than most newbies do.
------------------
I am OTAKU! Seeker and Gatherer of all knowledge. Know this and fear me.
Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Detonate flashpowders ?
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View Full Version : Detonate flashpowders ?
the freshmaker February 24th, 2001, 03:03 PM

In the "favour flashpowder" discussion someone said that flashpowder would only deflagrate from a fuse, but detonate from
shock - a HE.
(please don't discuss if flash will det from fuse, again!)
If I use a detonater/booster will it then detonate more powerfull than from fuse?
How powerfull is it then?
Will all kinds of falshpowders detonate?
------------------
You can't survive the life!
Jumala February 24th, 2001, 08:26 PM

Ive seen a TV science show where they lit 0,2 g of a aluminum and perchlorate mix (silver colored Al powder) with a match.
It sounds like a pistol shot wich means its burn rate must be higher than 1000m/s = detonation. The same effect was shown
with a 100g quantity. It was a strong detonation.
When you use sulfur additional in the mix the burnrate will be slowed down very much.
BoB- February 25th, 2001, 05:03 AM

Any Chlorate or Chlorate distant cousin could potentially detonate, and some are unstable enough to detonate from
deflegration.
the freshmaker February 25th, 2001, 05:46 AM

Is Permanganate-flash unstable enough to detonate from shock. I will try it today. maybe I will take some pics of it.
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the freshmaker February 25th, 2001, 06:53 AM

Hmmmmm! I have just tried to detonate 20gr. Permanganate flashpowder. I filled a papertube with one open end with 20gr.
flash and placed a small but very powerfull firecracker/bomb in the middle and then covered the open end with tape.
I'm not sure if it detonated but it was VERY loud and VERY powerfull. I firered it about 250m from our house, and only 5sec.
after it blew up I could hear my mum yelling my name.
(my mum is used to some big booms comming from the forest, but this time she was totally fucked) She said the windows
and the floor were shacking!!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
sorry I didn't get any pics this time, but maybe later.
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blackadder February 25th, 2001, 10:02 AM

How could you hear your mum calling your name if you were 250m away? You're mum must have shouted really loud!
Oh yeah, and what was the permanganate flash composed of? was it just KMnO4 with Al?

well I think the wind was blowing from the house down to me.......or else there wasn't 250m...but something near that.
I was using 12g KMno4 3gr. sulfur and 5gr. Al

A firecracker is not a detonator.

NO shit Sherlock! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
It worked as a booster charge.

You said:
"Is Permanganate-flash unstable enough to detonate from shock"
You were trying to detonate a secondry high explosive by shock - using a firecracker - sounds like the role of a detonator to
me.
How are you even sure the KMNO4 flash detonated? The heat from the burtsing firecracker would have been enough to ignite
it.

Don't know why I bother really, but just a safety warning: KMnO4 is such a strong oxidizer that mixtures made with it can go
off by themselves. Try mixing some with Glycerine if you don't believe me.
Also, it is definitely shock sensitive. Try shooting a SMALL quantity of Permanganate flash (mixed onsite, you don't want it
going off when you're carrying it) with an air rifle...
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't
need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
the freshmaker March 1st, 2001, 01:23 PM

Is Permanganate flash a secondary HE Anthony??
I DIDN'T say it detonated -but it was a very powerfull explosion. My point was if i gave the flashpowder a powerfull shock it
would maybee detonate and as J said it is very shock-sensitive! and if it is VERY shock sensitive then a firecraker would be
enough
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Anthony March 2nd, 2001, 04:13 PM

Off the top of my head I don't know, but it wouldn't suprise me if it is. I thought that by the fact that you were trying to
detonate it that you already knew it was a HE?
Mr Cool March 2nd, 2001, 05:33 PM

Not technically a secondary high explosive, just a shock-sensitive low explosive.
the freshmaker March 2nd, 2001, 07:51 PM

When used with a fuse= Low explosive
When used with a detonator= (Weak) HE
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Jumala March 2nd, 2001, 10:14 PM

In my military time we have had training hand grenades (DM 12) made from cardboard and styrofoam. They were filled with a
type of flashpowder(only a small amount).
When such a device goes off near you, you cant use your ears for a hour or more.
You hear only a continuos "beeeep"
DM 12 devices have no detonators! Only a chemical delay ignitor.
A pistol shot isnt as loud as a DM 12 so it is a detonation (< 1000 m/s).
sadsakjoel March 4th, 2001, 01:46 AM

Today I have had sucess detonating flashpowder: One commercial firecracker was place on the ground and lit, soft, quiet
noise. When we sticky-taped more smaller fireckrackers to it and shoved it under a bin, It was fucking loud! there wasn't much
left of the smaller one's except 1 or 2 of the 9 didn't go off. I was surprised to find them into powered cardboard and not
much else. Yes I am pretty sure of detonation.
J March 4th, 2001, 08:03 AM

I don't think you can conclusively prove that it was a detonation, merely the composition is shock sensitive.
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outsider March 4th, 2001, 01:42 PM

You should read the thread "flashpowder used as detonator" as well. Flashpowders consisting of (per)chlorate and aluminium
detonate when confined. And they don't need a shock to detonate just a fuse. And I think permanganate flashpowder has the
same properties: it detonates when confined and initiated with a fuse. And this would make it a primary high explosive (but
not a very good one: sensitive,low VoD, low power).
Just put it on a piece of metal (steel, copper, aluminium), lite it: if it produces a dent it detonated.
Anthony March 4th, 2001, 02:22 PM
"Flashpowders consisting of (per)chlorate and aluminium detonate when confined"
That may possibly be true of some flash powders but not most. Commercial flash is potassium chlorate/Al and it does not
detonate. If lit unconfined it goes "poof" as does permanganate flash.
A pyrotechnics forum is the best place to ask about flash detonating. They spend loads of time argueing about it.
Sadsakjoel, it was louder because you used 9 crackers instead of 1 http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/wink.gif
firebreether March 4th, 2001, 09:32 PM

Chlorate mixes are much more unstable than perchlorates, so I think they could potentially be detonated. Either way guys,
whether flash can detonate or not, it still goes ka fuckin boom and thats all there is to it.
sadsakjoel March 5th, 2001, 05:57 AM

Anthony- yes we did use 9 but only 1 had a fuse, and I thought maybe they detonated. i don't really know much about flash
powders

Just put 'em on some thin metal sheet (preferrably copper) and see what happens! And that you can detonate 9 at one time
by just lighting one is also proof they detonate! The first one produced a shock that set they other ones off.
Mr Cool March 5th, 2001, 12:44 PM

That's not a proof of detonation - it merely proves that flash is shock sensitive.

Oh, J already said that. Sorry.
outsider March 7th, 2001, 08:07 AM

And how the hell is the shockwave produced that set the other 9 off ?
I just take a wild guess, but I think it must be the one that was ignited. And when you ignite a firecracker and a shockwave is
produced that detonates all the others it was attached to (all in one time), it must have detonated, don't you think?
Just put one of those firecrackers on a copper plate and see what happens! The shockwave(!) will produce a dent! And you can
try to produce such a dent with firecrackers filled with blackpowder (or some other mixture that doesn't produce a shockwave)
and the result will be zero! Not even a kilo of blackpowder will produce a dent. So you can test it or take it from me:
flashpowder made of (per)chlorate/aluminium and permanganate mixtures detonate when confined and ignited by fuse (but
they are low power, low VoD (1000-1500 m/s), unstable and sensitive).
[This message has been edited by outsider (edited March 07, 2001).]

In KIPE it describes the Na or KClO3 + Vaseline mix. It also say you can substitute Al powder for some of the vaseline. I think
this is kind of like flash. but it is very oxidizer rich so not exactly. It says you can get a Det. Vel. of around 3000 m/s. I
assume this mix must be detonated with a cap. So If flash can change from deflagration to detonation of detonate period a
small salute or firecracker should detonate the KClO3 + Vaseline mix. If it doesn't detonate I don't think it could.

Just because flash dented the plate DOES NOT mean it detonated! It just means it produced a large pressure, not necessarily
from a detonation. Normal firecrackers don't do it because gunpowder is shit.
The KClO3 / Vaseline mix operates completely differently, because it is set off by a detonator which detonates the KClO3. If
you used a detonator on normal flash it might very well detonate the KClO3 in it, but it will not detonate from flame. Thinking
about it, the shock from the first one burning might have been enough to detonate the other 9, but it's morte likely that it just
caused them to ignite and explode.

Yes, KCLO3/vaseline is a different story. That mixture detonates when a blasting cap is used. And you can't even ignited with
a flame: it won't even burn. And adding aluminium powder doesn't make it a flashpowder. By the way did any of you think
about why it's called a flash powder? That's because when ignited by flame and unconfined it burns very quickly (in one flash)
and produces a flash of bright light. So even unconfined it has a high burning rate. And when confined the reaction is even
faster and deflagration becomes a detonation. See the similarities with AP? Unconfined: burns quickly, confined: detonation.
Of course this does not proof firecrackers filled with flashpowder detonate when ignited by fuse, but I'm just trying to convince
you people that they do. By the way, that they do produce a (clear/sharp) dent IS proof they detonate because it proofs that a
shockwave was produced (pressurewaves of non detonating explosives don't have the power to produce a dent. Only
detonating explosives produce such a dent. And with high enough VoD the metal will not only be dented but shattered as well).
And that you can set a pack of firecrackers off all at one time(!) IS proof also of detonation. Believe it or not. By the way if you
still don't believe it I would suggest reading a book about explosives.

I recommend "The chemistry of powders and explosives" by T.L. Lewis: "mixtures of potassiumchlorate and red phosphorous
and various other substances" are listed as primary explosives.
[This message has been edited by outsider (edited March 08, 2001).]

So is the concensus that it does detonate or it doesn't. I cast a vote for it detonating. What does everyone else say? How
about deflagration to detonation. I cast a vote that it can because it is so unstable. I know voting won't give us the true
answer but lets see how it turns out.
PS Outsider. Just because when confined doesn't mean it's like AP and will detonate. Almost any explosives burn rate is
increased with higher pressures, some more than others. flash might be very sensitive to pressure yet still burn fast
unconfined. (I don't think this is very likely or I don't even know if it is possible)so maybe this is what is happening. Though I
think you're right when you say this. but don't jump to conclusions, let people decide for themselves whether or not to accept
flash detonates. But do it after all things are considered.
Oh an also, someone said that because the firecracker produced a shockwave that ignited the other 9(or detonated depending
on what you believe)it mustve detonated. That is NOT at all proof that the original one detonated from fuse. It proves that the
firecracker exploded. Whupdedoo. When an explosive ignites it builds up very high pressures in its chamber. When pressure is
enough it breaks the containers walls and the pressure is neuralized by the extremely fast release of gas to the outside. This
gas is moving fast away from the source. Kind of like a wave. It hits something and pushes it in the direction that the wave is
going. When the wave hits it it produces a shock. SHOCKWAVE. A weak one but none the less a shockwave. BP does this too.
But BP doesn't burn fast enough to create a strong shochwvae from exploding it container. Maybe flash burns very fast and the
shockwave that set the others off was from the crackers walls rupturing not the flash detonating. But I still think it detonates
because of the extreme sensitivity of Chlorates mainly. I just want to represent both sides in the matter.
[This message has been edited by firebreether (edited March 08, 2001).]

Denting a metal plate IS NOT PROOF OF DETONATION!!! It is merely proof of a high pressure released in a short time. OK, the
flash MIGHT have detonated, but nothing you've said so far proves it. And the fact that it set the others off is also NOT PROOF
OF DETONATION. The flash in the tube burns, creating pressure. This ruptures the casing, creating a shock wave which pushes
on the walls of the other firecrackers. This squashes the powder inside, raising the temperature and causing them to ignite
and burst their containers.

Oh and one last thing. I think it can detonate, maybe even from a fuse although this might not be what happened or happens
all the time I don't know. BUT when a low explosive ruptures a container it can only build up the pressure that bursts the
container. When a HE detonates it creates many many times that. This is why it can blow bigger. That is also why it creates a
real shockwave. I guess I'd agree that is why it will dent the Cu plate.

"Not even a kilo of blackpowder will produce a dent"
I promise that a kilo of BP in a cardboard tube would blow the fuck out of a bit of sheet metal. If it can rip it to pieces, it can
dent it.
I think there is a very simple way of settling this: How are firecrackers classed? Is it 1.4G or as a HE???

I cannot go explaining it again. Read a book. Some people seem to lack even a basic knowledge of explosives (the rupture of
a container by high pressure produces NO shockwave!) And firecrackers filled with flashpowder are classed 1.1 (mass
explosive) (read other thread about flashpowders used as detonator)
Mr Cool March 10th, 2001, 09:09 AM

Of course it creates a shock wave. If it didn't you wouldn't hear a bang. A shock wave is just a wave of pressure, which is the
same as sound waves.
Get an education.
Microtek March 10th, 2001, 10:13 AM

Well there is a lot of faulty logic in this thread. I won't comment any further on that though, but simply say in response to
outsider that while detonating explosives create a shockwave, so do gunshots or clapping your hands sharply.
Also there is nothing to say that a low explosive can't be shock sensitive so, the experiment with the nine firecrackers is
inconclusive as well.
As for the plate dent test, you need to use very light confinement and not too large amounts of explosive to be able to
conclude anything useful.
Just so everything is crystal clear:
None of this proves that flash does NOT detonate, it only points out that the question of detonation has not been settled.
PS. I know others have said all this earlier in this thread, I just want to add my support to the argument.

I don't have to prove anything. Scientist have done that a long time ago. I was just letting you people know what those
scientist found out. But you people are a little hard to convince so I suggested you to read some books about explosives.
And that's very necessary because some of you don't know some basic fundamentals about explosives. A shockwave is not a
pressurewave for instance. And about education: I have had some. But maybe this the wrong forum for serious scientific
discussions. Maybe here we should just talk about "loud fuckin' kaboom explosions" and "very loud fuckin' explosions".
10fingers March 10th, 2001, 04:53 PM

Yea, who cares if it detonates or deflagrates as long as you get a big KA-BOOM. It seems that this topic has been done more
times than necessary. Never definitively.
I have a suggestion. Take two equal amounts of flash powder and test them on a thin metal plate, one lit by fuse and the
other with a detonator. They should be lightly confined, paper tube or similar to prevent scattering of the powder. The
detonator should be small in relation to the amount of powder so as not to effect the results.
If the flash powder detonates then I would think that the dent would be larger than the sample lit by fuse.

Outsider, in practically every post you've made today, you have said that people lack a basic understanding of chemistry and
should read some books.
I may not be an expert when it comes to explosives, but I know that both LE's and HE's produce a shock wave, just one of
them is super sonic and the other is not.
This is the place for serious scientific discussion, but you seem to be getting stroppy just because people won't take your word.
The subject of whether flash detonates is a common one amoung pyros and many hours get wasted argueing over it. So I
suggest you get that stick out of your arse.
J March 11th, 2001, 08:12 AM

This forum IS a place for serious scientific discussion. Outsider, if you have any sources for your information please state
them, 'books' isn't very helpful.
As Anthony said, this discussion has arrisen before many times on various pyro discussion boards, I've never seen a
conclusion.
------------------

You don't have to take my word. But you should take the word of serious scientific evidence and theories. But you people
don't, that's why the discussion is going on and on. But it's a useless discussion because it's already clear which flashpowders
detonate under what circumstances. And the discussion becomes very unclear when people start talking about things they
don't have any knowledge of (some don't have a clue what they are talking about and should stick to "wow, that was a loud
fuckin' kaboom" and shut up) or use all sorts of terms that they don't know the meaning of. One example of many is the word
"shockwave". It's used for a lot for different things in this forum. Even clapping your hands would produce a shockwave (why
not clapping your hands then, for initiating an explosive, it would be much easier). You can't discus about explosives when
people don't even know the difference between sound, explosion, pressurewave and shockwave.

There you go again with your faulty logic;
just because A and B share one characteristic does not mean they will share another.
Let's make it real clear: Just saying that clapping hands and detonating explosives both produce shockwaves does not imply
that they are both capable of initiating secondary explosives; it was exactly the point of my argument that they don't.
And YOU think that WE are thick-headed?

(I Just cant admit I'm wrong instead I'll waste space here)
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited March 12, 2001).]
the freshmaker March 11th, 2001, 11:13 AM

I actully heard that ammonia triiodide can detonate if you claps your hands near ithttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
smile.gifhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
------------------

Clapping hands produces a shock wave.
A sharp sound like a clap is a sudden rise in air pressure. A sudden rise in pressure is a shock.
Maybe you'd like to educate me, and explain what the difference is between the shock wave from a detonator or explosive and
the clap from clapping your hands, except the magnitude?

"But you should take the word of serious scientific evidence and theories" - you have failed to quote or link to any of this
"serious scientific evidence" so for all we know you're making it up or could have miss understood it.
"some don't have a clue what they are talking about and should stick to "wow, that was a loud fuckin' kaboom" and shut up"
If you want to insult someone, do it properly and use their name.
blackadder March 11th, 2001, 06:39 PM

This is getting a bit annoying. We should be wasting hours of time arguing over whether flash detonates, not arguing over who
has the more knowledge.
Enough, until outsider can prove that clapping your hands DOESN'T produce a shockwave, and until outsider can show us his
"books", then what he is saying is rubbish.
I/we don't want outsider to be hated, he possesses valuable knowledge about explosives, and that's the whole point of this
forum. We don't want to lose him. After he's proved that what he's saying is true, or admitted he's talking bullshit, all these
"arguing" posts should be deleted.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't sound itself a mini-shockwave? The shockwave reverbarates through the air, and your
eardrums percept these vibrations, and send them to your brain which decodes them.

That's exactly what I think.
Well, I'm not going to argue anymore, but if Outsider comes up with some proof I'll gladly admit that I'm wrong, I just don't
think I am.
It is a common misbelief that just because something makes a bang when unconfined, it detonates. This is not entirely true.
It often is, but not always.

OK, let's begin with the definition of a shockwave: the term shockwave is used to describe the physical effect that takes place
in a high explosive when it detonates. A shockwave travels through the explosive material and delivers the energy for the
material to react. By this reaction a lot of heat and gases are produced that expand with a lot of speed and force. This
produces the PRESSUREwave. So it's the shock that makes the explosive material react. And a pressurewave is produced as a
result (by the end products of the reaction). A shockwave is sort of like a blow of a hammer on a hard object that travels
through the object with a certain speed.
A shockwave is also only for 1-2 inches effective: by this I mean it cannot cross an air gap and the (shattering!)effect of this
(high power, high velocity) shockwave is only noticed to about 1-2 inches around the explosive. The pressurewave has no
shattering effect but produces very high pressure which force can push/destroy objects near the explosive (or around the
explosive). Now sound, explosion and pressurewaves have some similarities but it has clearly nothing to do with a shockwave.
A shockwave is something completely different and should not be confused with pressurewave.
Clear definitions are a must for a discussion.
Now, I did(!) recommend a book for some to read: "the chemistry of powders and explosives" by T.L. Lewis. In there
"mixtures of potassiumchlorate and red phosphorous and a lot of various other substances" are classed as primary
explosives(!). The conclusion that firecrakers filled with flashpowder consisting of (per)chlorate and aluminiumpowder detonate
when ignited by flame and confined is based upon a lot of arguments.
1. It detonates unconfined when iniated with a cap
2. It produces a shockwave(!) that dents a metal plate
3. It detonates other firecrackers taped to it (mass-explosive)
4. M-80's can be used to initiate high explosives (see other thread)
5. They're illegal in some countries because they detonate and are thus listed 1.1 (mass-explosive).
6. All the other arguments I told you.
So it's not MY faulty logic or bullshit.

I can be wrong and I am stubborn but if I'm wrong I'll admit it. But I think I came to the right conclusion, considering all the
arguments in favour.

I think a shockwave can go more than a few inches, it just depends how much power is behind it. If you Det. 20 g RDX
compared to 200 g of it than the 200 g det will produce a shockwave that is effective much further.

You're still doing it. If we are going to get anywhere with this argueing, we must both use proper logic. You aren't so we can't.
No further comments from me before there is some kind of development in this thread.
the freshmaker March 16th, 2001, 08:57 AM

The following text is taken directly from the book: A Professional's Guide to Pyrotechnics - Understanding and Making
Exploding Fireworks. (good book)
"One research paper indicates a velocity of propagation in the neighbourhood of 1,300 m/s for a p.perchlorate/aluminium
flash mixture. Compare this velocity to with the figure of 4,450 m/s reported for TNT in THE CHIMISTRY OF POWDER AND
EXPLOSIVES. The 1,300 m/s figure should be taken as an approximate velocity for flash explosion arrived at under certain,
specific conditions rather than as an exact characteristic for all flash mixtures. Furthermore, the velocity of the detonation is
only one criterion used to to classify explosive materials; it is not an accurate representation of the total power of an explosive
material, but is a good criterion with wich to begin an examination of any explosive......"
1,300 m/s ......thats a detonation, right?
------------------
10fingers March 16th, 2001, 10:28 AM

Oh Good! That settles it!

Yes, velocity of detonation is only one property of an explosive. BUT a very important one! But first of all let me say that we
were discussing if flashpowder detonated (flashpowder consisting of (per)chlorate and aluminium powder; used confined and
ignited by flame). I am glad you found the information. I didn't know where I read it but all the other arguments made me
conclude the same anyway. But now we can stop argueing (about this subject anyway).
Now about your remark. The velocity of detonation is very important because the higher the velocity the faster the energy of
the explosive is released. And that makes a lot of difference in the effect or power: when all energy is released in a short time
the power is very high. When released slow (low VoD, or with an explosive that doesn't detonate but deflagrate (="burning"
:without producing a shockwave: the reaction is going by the heat transmitted through the explosive material. And you speak
of "burning rate" to say something of the velocity of the reaction (blackpowder confined has a burning rate of about 300 m/s) .
And this is NO shockwave. You must NOT confuse "burning rate" with "VoD". "Burning rate" is used for low explosives. "VoD"is
for primary or secundary high explosives that detonate. So to be clear: BP has a burning rate of 300 m/s. And flashpowder has
a VoD of 1,300 m/s.)
The difference in power is clearly illustrated by the following example: NC can detonate as well as deflagrate. And 1 kg of NC
that detonates has the same energy as 1kg that deflagrates. But you can tell the difference in power! All the energy is
released in one time when NC detonates AND a shockwave is produced. So it doesn't have only greater power (of the
pressurewave), it also has the shattering effect of the shockwave. So it's fair to say that with increasing VoD (not burning rate)
the power increases, because the difference in energy(!) of different explosives material isn't so great: the energy of a kg of
BP can be compared with a kilo of flashpowder or even TNT. The power(!) and effect depends merely on the kind of reaction
(detonation or deflagration) and the speed of the reaction (VoD and Burning rate respectively).

Doesn't flash have a BURNING RATE of 1.3 km/s, not a VoD of 1.3 km/s? Are you saying that if something burns at greater
than 1 km/s, then it detonates?
I thought that even if it burnt at, for example, 2 km/s, it was still just a deflagrating low explosive (although a bloody good
one!), such as BP (but obviously faster). I thought a detonation had to have certain specific features: a shock wave,
immediately followed by a decomposition zone, then a reaction zone, then the detonation products. This is why I think flash
initiated by a fuse burns, and by a detonator detonates, because if it is ignited by a fuse there is no shock wave. I know
primary explosives ignited by fuses can detonate, but this is because the sudden rise in temperature breaks down some of
the explosive, creating a sudden release of gas and a shock wave which detonates the rest. A sudden rise in temperature, in
my opinion, would not cause enough of the flash to decompose quickly enough to create the shock wave required for
detonation, because it takes a significant amount of time to warm up the components enough for them to react. The oxidiser
would need to melt before it could get hot enough to decompose and oxidise the Al, and this would hold the temperature at
this point for a certain amount of time, before the temperature could increase enough for the Al to burn. This makes the
reaction sluggish compared to that of a primary explosive ignited by flame, where a sudden rise in temperature to about
200*C can decompose it.
It would be nice if someone had a high-speed photograph of flash detonating/burning, to settle this once and for all. Then we
could see the waves travelling through it if it detonated, and this would be absolute proof. On a different topic, does anyone
know how those high speed photographs of detonations are produced? High-speed X-ray spark photography? They look like X-
rays, not normal photographs.
Also, it can be generally said that in detonating explosives, the detonation products flow in the opposite direction to the
propogation of the reaction, whereas in deflagrating explosives the products flow in the same direction as the propogation of
the reaction, so if anyone knows which way the gases flow this would be useful.
zaibatsu March 16th, 2001, 06:22 PM

How fast would you need the shutter to open? In my camera (not particularly expensive) you can set the shutter to 1/6400th
of a second, i'll try and get a catalogue and look at the top-end Nikons.
(just looked, the Minolta Dynax 9 (about 1149.90 (?!? quite cheap)) takes photos at a speed of up to 1/12,000th of a
second, but only at a rate of 5.5fps)

I'm sorry but I do not consider that conclusive proof.
"One research paper indicates" - most or all research papers need to agree for it to be accepted as truth. I could write a paper
on how flash doesn't detonate, it might not be true but I could still make the above statement.
"arrived at under certain, specific conditions" - "specific conditions" could be a blasting cap. The reference does not state how
the flash was initiated, be it fuse or cap.
"1 kg of NC that detonates has the same energy as 1kg that deflagrates. But you can tell the difference in power!" - if they
release the same amount of energy then they have the same power since "power" is energy.
How about if two firecrackers where taken and pushed into soft clay, one is ignited by fuse and the other initiated by a blasting
cap. Obviously the effect of the cap would have to be taken into account. It would be like a lead block test, the charges could
be tried in holes drilled into a concrete block (concrete should be more consistant than natural rock).
I think that test would produce fairly conclusive results, anyone agree?
c0deblue March 17th, 2001, 02:34 AM

I don't know whether any sort of flash will detonate, but how about an objective test to determine the answer (the following is
only an idea - I'm not sure of its validity in these circumstances).
Proposed Test:
1. Fill a fairly long piece of tubing (perhaps as long as 8 feet) with the flash mixture in question.
2. Place an electric detonating device at one end of the tube, and in the other end an electric ignitor identical to the one used
in the detonator. Insure that both are in intimate contact with the material under test, but mount the detonator in such a way
that it will only ignite or detonate the flashpowder without (itself) pressurizing the tube from the detonator end. For example,
place the detonator in a position parallel to the tube with a section of the tube cut away, rather than in an axial position (with
the detonator inserted in the tube end).
3. Stake the tubing so it's straight and mark the end points on the supporting surface for later reference.
4. Simultaneously fire the detonator and the ignitor using a series circuit (to insure simultaneous initiation).
5. In the same manner used when measuring the VoD of high explosives, observe the line created at the convergence of the
two propagation fronts and note the position of this line relative to the original starting points.
Assuming that in the same material under the same conditions the velocity of a detonation wave would be much faster than
simple flame front propagation, then if the line is equidistant from the ends it may be concluded that the material only
deflagrates, whereas a line further in distance from the detonator end would indicate detonation from that end and
deflagration from the other. Additionally, knowing the standard burn-rate for the tested composition (as determined
independently) would allow detonation velocity (if applicable) to be calculated.
Are there any reasons a test such as this wouldn't at least yield ballpark data?
Any thoughts?
[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited March 17, 2001).]
J March 17th, 2001, 08:19 AM

Anthony: Power is not the same as energy. Power is a function of time and energy.
I don't know much about commercial detonators/igniters, but wouldn't it be very difficult to get them to initiate at exactly the
same time? I can see that two detonators of the same make and from the same batch would, but surely there would be a
slight time difference between a detonator and an ignitor? I'm assuming a wire being heated by a current is the method of
initiation in each case. Or wouldn't the small time difference matter?
What if the flash detonated at both ends?
------------------
[This message has been edited by J (edited March 17, 2001).]

Why test it? It is already tested. The results are known. The flashpowder mentioned has a VoD (!) of 1.3 km/s. Not a burning
rate because a shockwave is produced(!) And I don't think that the burning rate can reach a 1000 m/s or even higher (and if it
can, it would still be a deflagration if the proces is continuated by heat and not by shock. It's the proces that takes place that
defines the character of the explosive (detonating/deflagrating) not the speed!). I thought I explained it clear enough.
By the way there's a simple test: a shockwave has certain properties. E.g. it has a shattering power. You can see if a
shockwave is produced by setting explosives off on(!) (not tamped) a metal plate. When a dent is produced or the metal is
shattered you know a shockwave was created (with a low VoD and high VoD respectively).
Anthony March 17th, 2001, 11:06 AM

It has already been tested? What? Where are the results? A COMPARITAVE test is needed to prove anything.
Unless you can conclusively prove that it does detonate by heat ignition then we will conclude that it doen't detonate.

I think the photographs used something like a high power X-ray machine, and X-ray film. The shutter of the camera was open
all the time, but the film was insensitive to normal light. Then the X-ray machine was operated by a spark gap allowing a
sudden pulse of HV, which caused an X-ray flash that was very short (0.5 nS. In that amount of time, light can only travel 6".
Pretty bloody fast.) but very intense to darken the film. The X-rays passed through the explosive, and hit the film, showing
differences in pressure due to refraction. X-rays were used because you can get much shorter bursts than with normal light,
from a flash bulb, because of the way they are made.
I don't think that a normal camera could do it well. It would be blurred, and also I have no idea how you'd open the shutter at
the right moment.
c0deblue March 17th, 2001, 01:48 PM

J: I don't think the small time difference (if any) should matter in a test line of this length, since the distance "handicap"
couldn't be more than the length of the detonator anyway (or its diameter in the case of the parallel orientation assumed for
the test). Since both bridge-wire ignitors are identical and energized in series, both will reach initiating temperature at the
same time. The only difference might be the time it takes for the detonator to initiate a shock wave response in the material
under test.
If the material were to detonate from both ends then the test wouldn't reveal anything, but I'm assuming for the sake of
argument that a bridge wire ignitor wouldn't produce detonation.
You're correct to point out the distinction between power and energy, but didn't you mean to say that *energy* is a function of
time and power? E.g. Watts = Power, whereas Watt/Seconds = Energy.
J March 18th, 2001, 08:43 AM

You're quite right! I suppose since the two main equations for KE and PE involve velocity/acceleration I should have realised.
I don't think the flash will detonate from plain ignition either, but I'd like to be proved wrong.
------------------

How much prove do you guys need?!
Microtek March 18th, 2001, 01:09 PM

Mr Cool: I'm sure you're aware of this since you point out the distinction, but I'll just have to point it out anyway:
In a detonating explosive the products travel in the direction of propagation. Opposite for deflagrating. Which is why you must
place your cap in the side of the
high)explosive that is furthest away from the target.

Well, the conclusive results of some comparitive tests would be proof enough.
PHILOU Zrealone April 4th, 2001, 11:50 AM

A detonation is a shockwave but of a certain kind.... as mentionned a clap in the hands is a shock wave but the difference is
not only the intensity but the speed of it.
So when speaking of a detonating explosive, usually we speak of a explosive with a shock wave produced and sustained by
itself (eventually with the help of a detonator) but at a rate superior to the speed of sound trough the solid (in a gas like the
air the velocity of sound is like 350m/s but in a solid like glass or granit it can be 3000m/s and in metals as high as 5000m/
s).
Usually everything happens in the shock wave regio as soon as it has passed all products have reacted. It is almost like one
end of the explosive don't know that a shock wave is traveling in its direction.
Now when we talk about low detonating explosives it is a little bit tricky since it is the speed of sound accross the solid that
produce the friction wave igniting the stuff; the time of reaction and the reaction layer is much larger than in a fast detonating
explosive.Thus the frontier is not clear except that we consider that over 2km/s is a detonation!
Here is what happens to a fast detonating explosive taken in ultra fast photography; one end is unreacted while the other is
making a cone of fumes like < and dissipating very fast the products of reaction
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII<O
IIIIIIIIIII<O
III<O
I<O
O
Here is what happens in a deflagrating or low detonating explosive:
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII<<OOOOOOOOO
IIIIIIIIII<<OOOOOOOOOO
III<<OOOOOOOOOO
I<<OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOO
Products have not yet finished their reaction when the wave is passed and react further without a fast dissipation of the
products.
One thing I wanted to say also is that the oxydiser in your flash powder can influence the VOD or the BR; You can't expect
Hydrazine nitrate or perchlorate/Al mix to behave similarly to NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4/Al mix or to KNO3 or KClO4/Al mix since in
the last one KClO4/KNO3 aren't detonating explosive while NH4NO3/NH4ClO4/NH2NH3NO3 and NH2NH3ClO4 are.
HN/Al mix should reach the 8km/s while AN/Al only the 3-4km/s and KClO4/Al 2-1km/s....
------------------

Shit those < give me troubles when I forgot a space.
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-
IIIIIIIIIIIII < O
IIIIIIII < O
III < O
I < O
O
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-
IIIIIIIIIIII < < OOOOO
IIIIII < < OOOOOOOOO
III < < OOOOOOOOO
I < < OOOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
J April 4th, 2001, 03:30 PM

I can purchase NH4NO3 easily and cheaply, and I was thinking about whether it could be used in flash. I've consulted the PFP
database and another formula collection, and can't find it used for flash. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is
dangerous to mix it with Al. Is this due to the fact that NO3/Al will produce heat when mixed, or is this yet another
incompatibility of NH4NO3? I know it is incompatible with some other metals (Cu).
I've read that Al is a sensitizer of NH4NO3. Does this mean it makes it easier to detonate (requiring less primary explosive) or
is it sensitizing to the extent that the mixture is unstable?
------------------
Anthony April 4th, 2001, 06:13 PM

Yeah, NO3s + Al in general are "to be avoided". I don't think it's a serious reaction though (like ClO3/S) a bit or boric acid
would probably cure it - but don't quote me on that!
zaibatsu April 6th, 2001, 09:18 PM

J, although I am not experienced in this field, I believe it sensitizes it, requiring less primary explosive, like Al in KClO3/
Vaseline does.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)
JB April 8th, 2001, 11:46 AM

I attempted to detonate NaClO3 + sugar + petrolium jelly last night with a detonator I made using a copper pipe filled with a
mix of flash powder and about 180 paper caps because one article I have reads : "Mercury fulminate can be found in toy
paper caps for use in a cap pistol. The quantity in a paper cap is about 1/10 of a grain. There are 15.4 grains in a gram so
approximately 154 of them contain one gram".
When I inserted the det. unto the plastique and put this into a strong container, then set this off on a field. The report was a
sound like a pop rather than a bang, but the visul effect was quite spectacular from the small amount used. Later my parents
told me that it was quite loud, and even my neighbours came to the door. What I am enquiring about here is - did the
chlorate plastique detonate or did it just ignite from the detonator? And though I only heard a pop/crack sound, was there a
shockwave sent through the ground that would have been heard louder to those in houses than where I was stood out side?
Also did the flash powder possibly detonate from the paper caps? I am quite intrigued by this result, and could anybody be
able to explain this. I will have pictures shortly of the detonator setup and my method of the plastique manufacture if anyone
is interested.
J April 8th, 2001, 01:25 PM

I'd say a detonation was extremely unlikely. For a start, paper caps contain Armstrongs mix, not Fulminate. Unless the article
was extremely old, you've been mis-informed. Either that, or the author was confusing caps with 'throw downs', which contain a
TINY amount of primary explosive. Even if you took a thousand of these, you'd have to somehow extract the primary before
they could be used to initiate anything.
I suspect that if you had left out the sugar, it wouldn't have even burnt.
------------------

We cannot tell you whether it detonated! You have to look at it and see, if there is no trace of the NaCLO3 plastique, a large
crater and only tiny pieces of the casing left then it probably detonated. But it is extremely unlikely that it did because the
blast would have been deafening.
The pop would have been the flash powder bursting the detonator casing.
JB April 8th, 2001, 03:13 PM

Ok cheers, I'll try detonating it with acetone peroxide instead. It did look good though, heh. I usually get a terrific blast from
ignition of the chlorate in metal containers, so I'll try it with a 'real' det. cap and let you know the results

NH4NO3/Al powder mix can be boosted up by nitroglycerin, nitroglycol, TNT, DNT, NM (always cap sensitive).
Alone, NH4NO3/Al mix is more sensitive than single AN... if the Al is very fine, it can be cap sensitive.Use very dry AN with
some hydrophobic substance like an oil, stearate,...
------------------
Demolition June 24th, 2001, 05:46 AM

I'm sorry to bring up such an old subject but it wouldn't be worth posting a new topic on what I have to say.
To see weather certain flash powders detonate couldn't you just place a small amount of flash on the ground and hit it with a
hammer.It would ignite from the shock but if it ignited and went crack(such as AP)then wouldn't it suggest that the flash
powder detonated???
Demolition
kingspaz June 24th, 2001, 08:23 AM

i think flash could detonate if it was set off with a cap. it is similar to a chlorate/vaseline mix but with Al instead of vaseline. i
don't think it could make the d-d transition though.
PHILOU Zrealone June 25th, 2001, 08:22 AM

A sharp crack doesn't mean a detonation; it just mean a fast burning over 350m/s!!!1-2km/s is stil a deflagration! And it is
hard to tell the difference between a deflagrating substance and a detonating one especially in the limit regio between 1.5 and
3 km/s.
------------------

That rules out my testing theory then.
Demolition

http://www.sonic.net/~brucel/videos.html
Download the car bomb video.They reckon that half a box full of M-80's can do that to a car,I think their having themselves
on.Maybe someone slipped in a couple of sticks of Dynamite.http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
But if the test is true then maybe it can help out with the discussion.
Demolition
DarkAngel June 27th, 2001, 11:01 AM

I already saw that movie it's cool.
A bit of topic butt here is also a link on it to the Enschede (Holland) disaster those video's don't work for me but it's about a
big firework warehouse in the middle of an neighbourhood that exploded and destroyed the whole place
and the other movie big bang is also awesome i need to dream about colored explosions soon!
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)

sendtosection1@hotmail.com
TylerDurden June 30th, 2001, 09:43 AM

The disaster with the fireworks company in Enschede is a good example of what flashpowder can do.
What happened was basicly that they had stored a lot of fireworks (filled with a flashpowder like mixture: I think perchlorate
with titanium powder) and a fire caused one to go off and that one detonated the rest. These flashpowder bombs are mass-
explosive when stored too close together. And they detonate.
Tony Montana June 30th, 2001, 12:53 PM

Outsider:
When trying to detonate flashpowder, I would recommend using something else than flashpowder! Although a novel idea, and
actually used/ C-4|RDX.
You sir, should stick to fireworks, and leave the real jobs to the real men, my opinion of you is low.
DarkAngel June 30th, 2001, 08:04 PM

Last year when the Enschede disaster happend,you saw that a shockwave
destroyed all the roof tiles like it
whas moving water.
Pretty inpressive
------------------
arkAngel

Cricket July 15th, 2001, 12:25 AM

In the exploding car video, it said "illegal fireworks", but not the active ingredients. So it could be flash or dynamite, no one
knows that was even the box exploding in there. But is this whole thing really worth arguing about? I think we should
concentrate or how to make it and new mixtures. Does it really matter if it detonate, yea, is it worth getting pissed off at
people? I would just call the BATF and ask, but specify exactly what flash, if you are that worried about it. I would never use it
as a filler anyway, just a detonator if I'm in a pinch.
Ericm115 August 21st, 2001, 03:30 PM

ok, I know nothing.. at all about this stuff. I may be totally mixed up, but to find out if it detonates or not, couldnt you use it
as a detonator for something like ANFO, and light the flash powder. If it detonates the ANFO if would have to detonate right?
Again, Im going on (probally mixed up) logic alone and just trying to contribute so please dont flame me.

No, that wouldn't prove it detonates as man secondary high explosives (i.e PETN) can be detonated with a hammer blow.
Fingerless August 26th, 2001, 10:22 AM

LOL, I wonder how many people think that a few M-80's actually did that to the car? Misleading bastards....
Originally posted by Cricket:

In the exploding car video, it said "illegal fireworks", but not the active ingredients. So it could be flash or dynamite, no one
knows that was even the box exploding in there. But is this whole thing really worth arguing about? I think we should
concentrate or how to make it and new mixtures. Does it really matter if it detonate, yea, is it worth getting pissed off at
people? I would just call the BATF and ask, but specify exactly what flash, if you are that worried about it. I would never use it
as a filler anyway, just a detonator if I'm in a pinch. 
mark August 26th, 2001, 08:03 PM

I have no real scientific information, but explosions from impact are usualy louder than explosions from fuse. This is just my
experience, though, and a very limited one at that.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > vitamin c flashpow der
Log in
View Full Version : vitamin c flashpowder
ALENGOSVIG1 January 3rd, 2001, 05:36 AM

does anyone have a copy of the vitamin c flashpowder formula discused in nbk's file in text or doc format? that i can put on my site?...i would like to put nbk's file on my site
but i am running outa space
------------------
http://ww w.angelfire.com/mb2/alspalace/
atropine February 3rd, 2001, 01:38 PM

i didnt think CA had any other use other than a catalyst for hmtd etc. Oh and home brew
wantsomfet February 3rd, 2001, 04:32 PM

U.S Patents No. 4,497,676 & 4,728,376
Try searching on a patent search engine...
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org (http://catfood.tsx.org)
MacCleod February 4th, 2001, 02:29 AM

atropine,vitamin C is 'ascorbic' acid.
wantsomfet February 4th, 2001, 09:15 AM

Here i uploaded some pics of a patent, i downloaded ist somwhere times ago...
http://odin.prohosting.com/~ ratfuck/kno3vitc/kno3vitc.html
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org (http://catfood.tsx.org)
atropine February 4th, 2001, 09:55 AM

"ascorbic acid", w hich is.........sorrey im bit slow
Agent Blak February 4th, 2001, 01:34 PM

pure vit C
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Frosty May 23rd, 2001, 03:53 PM

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but, where can you find "Pure Vit C". I know where you can get just Vitamin C but where can you buy it pure?
CodeMason May 23rd, 2001, 07:58 PM

That patent says "organic acid". Could one use the more readily available tartaric acid instead then?
Hey, or even citric acid?
[This message has been edited by CodeMason (edited May 23, 2001).]
Alchemist May 31st, 2001, 11:19 AM

Hello gang,
Just a quick note. I found ascorbic acid (vitamin C) at a pool store the other day. It is used in spa's as a alkaline neutralizer. I got kicked out before I could get the price. They
did not like me writting in a note pad what was on the labels. Ass holes!!!
------------------
J May 31st, 2001, 02:20 PM

It can be bought from homebrew shops, but it isn't cheap!
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman
eNt0n May 31st, 2001, 03:03 PM

In Germany you can buy pure (99,9%) ascorbic acid at the pharmacist. It will cost 2/100gr. I don't now, but in several german speaking countries you can by it in the
pharmacist. Just check out. Don't now about the other countries. But I think it must be avaible there, because it's a very good method to fight against a cold.
CodeMason May 31st, 2001, 07:18 PM

I'm going to order 500g through my pharmacist. What's my excuse? "I'm mixing up some health drinks and I like to add a small amount of vitamin C to them." Wish me luck.
the freshmaker June 1st, 2001, 05:03 AM

or maybe you have catched a big bad coldhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
CodeMason September 7th, 2001, 01:09 PM

Bah, I tried it w ith ~80% pure ascorbic acid and it was less of a flash and more of a slow, crackling burn, a lot slower than KNO3+ sucrose. The other 20% or so
was made up by sodium ascorbate, this may have been the problem.
Damn, I hate when I w aste my money on expensive ingredients that don't actually do anything. >_<
Agent Blak September 7th, 2001, 07:22 PM

Did you just mix them then let it burn? or did you go through and refine(mill and press)?
------------------
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
CodeMason September 8th, 2001, 08:35 AM

I used the broomstick method, ie I got it in a film canister and beat the fuck out of it with the end of a broom stick, then closed the lid, shook up real good and repeated. I did
this for about an hour. I have quite good results when I do this w ith standard black powder.
When that didn't work I tried melting the two together ala KNO 3+sucrose smoke bombs, letting it dry then crushing it into a fine pow der. That w orked even
worse.
I shouldn't have to do the precipitation method either because ascorbic acid is soluable.
marky September 14th, 2002, 09:05 PM

Hey i thought this might help you guys but thant link for the flash pow der dident work so could someone give me the proper proportions
i already did a search and nothing in the picific catorgory came up.
(sorry for the spelling mistakes)
I Also, I made a fool of myself today, I had been milling some KNO3 and Ascorbic acid over night(separately) of wich I tried a mixture 45% AA to 55% KNO3. Tested it and it
seemed to burn too slow for any purposes as propellant. So I decided to get rid of the remaining pow der. Mixed it up(I don't know how much of each) in a ziplock bag and went
outside, put the pile on the ground(around 30 grams in total) and put a match to it. Wooosssh!(I was engulfed in a smoke cloud), almost burned my hand there, seems as I
only have to w ork on the percentage.
*Credit to Xoo1246*
Sparky September 15th, 2002, 02:11 AM

If you're running out of space on your site, register another site domain and cross link them.
I don't think this stuff really counts as flash powder per se. Flash pow ders have metals as fuels.
Marky: One of the proportions on NBK's pdf is: 200.6 AA, 327.4 KNO3 and 22 grams corn starch. You're better off downloading NBK's PDF from the FTP if you have an account.
I'm pretty sure the corn starch is to bind the grains, but in most pyrotechnic compositions dextrine (pyrolysed corn starch) is used for that.
I remember reading an article about gunpowder alternatives, but I can't find it now. It mentioned vitamin C pow der and the impression I got was that it is a better propellant
than regular black pow der, because it gives a more even pressure when it burns. But it burns slow er, so it does not w ork well for loose fitting projectiles such as fireworks shells.
When I was searching for this article I found something similar (golden powder - not to be confused with fulminating/yellow pow der):
<a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=380B86DB.B1472957%40igc.org&rnum=3" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/
groups?hl=en&lr=&ie= UTF-8&safe=off&selm= 380B86DB.B1472957%40igc.org&rnum=3</a>
xoo1246 September 15th, 2002, 04:25 AM

Remove
[ December 11, 2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
marky September 15th, 2002, 06:11 AM

where do you buy ascorbic acid w hats its uses i tryed using vit-C
and didnet work :( (barly burned)and would citric acid pure powder
work as w ell as ascorbic acid thanks guyz.
Thanks anywayz.

Remove
ALENGOSVIG1 September 15th, 2002, 01:12 PM

It doesnt need to be ball milled. A minute or two in a coffee grinder w orks fine. Using this method i recieve pow eder that burns fastr than BP.
Marvin September 15th, 2002, 01:26 PM

While ballmilling will produce very fine powders and intimate mixtures, its important to note that golden powder is not a mixture of its ingredients. Ascorbic acid and KNO3 are
dissolved in w ater and then heated in an oven. When the water is driven off the ascorbic acid starts to decompose releasing more w ater, carbon dioxide and leaving an
unspecified polymer containing very fine KNO3 crystals. This is the main reason for the use of relativly expensive complex organic acids like ascorbic. Citric/tartaric/malic are all
very simple acids and are unlikley to w ork. Golden powders primary benifits, are the production without any milling, and the lack of water insoluable residue after ignition. Its
massivly more expensive to produce than gunpowder and rather hygroscopic. You need an electric oven with good temperature control to produce it, and the mixture rises in the
oven, so a large container is preferable. The chemistry suggests the product w ill be superior to ground mixtures of its ingredients.
Stay safe.
nbk2000 September 15th, 2002, 01:48 PM

Where did you come up with the name Golden Powder for VitC powder? Is this an existing name for such compositions (URL of references please), or something you made up
yourself?
Mine w as always purplish/red, so "golden" seems rather inappropriate.
xoo1246 September 15th, 2002, 02:55 PM

Remove
carbonated September 15th, 2002, 03:35 PM

I got ascorbic acid (vitamin C) from an organic health foods store for somewhere around $20 a pound. Its a white powder. I thought I might try it in HMTD because I still can't
find citric acid, but I can't find hexamine either, so I might give "golden powder" a try.

Well, I'm currently nursing some horrible second degree burns all across my right hand because of this stuff, and I can now testify for its fantastic burn rate, which is indeed
comparable to that of good, milled black pow der. Marvellously complete deflagration, bright orange WHOOSH. Very nice for pow der that does not require milling of any kind
(mixed KNO3, ascorbic acid, and a pich of NaHCO3, w etted, and heated on stove.) [side note - I think what is forming is sodium polyascorbates, which would then be much
better reducers than simple ascorbic acid] I recommend this to all, but the next time I do it I'm going to use fucking LOW heat and w ear some nice fire-retardant gloves. < img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Luckily the gods had (sparing) mercy on my carelessness this time.

Remove
nbk2000 September 19th, 2002, 11:31 AM

I wonder if you could use a microwave instead of a conventional oven? That'd certainly expand the capacity to make it. That'd be nice since I don't have a conventional oven to
use. :(
Also, anyone tried using it (VitC) for making something? I'm thinking this would be good stuff for making those exploding "ninja" smokebomb things where you have a central
bag of a propellant like BP (or VitC in this case) surrounded by a larger bag of an inert powder like talcum that is dispersed in a cloud.
I've got a coffee grinder, KNO3, VitC (soon), and an idea. :)
I'm going to soak some silica gel in a CS solution from a MACE can. Let dry and grind it into a fine powder with the grinder. Mix with talcum and disperse as a screening/teargas
cloud. Firstly, they can't see through it, then, if they go through it or it blows over them, they get maced. :D
CodeMason September 22nd, 2002, 04:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:< hr /> I wonder if you could use a
microw ave instead of a conventional oven? That'd certainly expand the capacity to make it. That'd be nice since I don't have a conventional oven to use.<hr /> < /
blockquote> Candles? Hot-plate? Small fire? Personally, I wouldn't w ant to risk putting a low explosive material in an enclosed
space such as a microwave for cooking. If something goes wrong out in the open, at least you're only going to have flames and smoke, if something goes wrong in the
microw ave, it pressurizes, cannot vent, and then ka-boom.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 22nd, 2002, 08:10 AM

can i suggest a test w ith a small amount, and _gradual_ increases of pow der quantity. I can't think of any reason for spontaneous combustion if there was only a small amount
of liquid w ithin the mixture before starting,no metallic objects and if the time left in the 'nuker was kept to a minimum (also a dessicant in microwave would be good as
otherwise the water vapour might be re-absorbed)
hey, NBK is there any truth in the myth about the Klan w iring up
microw ave ovens to turn on when opened?(sp)...just asking :D
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur September 22nd, 2002, 11:08 AM

I've just gone away and tried it... it w orks like a dream !
it takes a lot less time then the oven process, the first time i used the microwave i achived an excellent result, i just had to leave it to stand for a bit to allow the super heated
water vapour to escape, (i advise that a dessicant is used as a fair amount of vapour is produced) BUT on the second try i left it in too long (as i was aiming for dry as soon as it
was out of the microw ave) and it started to "fizz" and pop. i was conducting this from about 12' away so i pulled the plug (extension leed plug :p )
i have only tried 1/2 measures of the recipie (53.5 gm of kno3)

so i DONT pretend to know about higher w eights (i have to clean out the microwave before my room mates find out i've been trying to launch the microwave into orbit) so
PLEASE FOR G(M)ODS SAKE BE CAREFUL! I dont want a crispy pyro on my conscience (hahaha,me...conscience!) and dont blame me if your microwave becomes the next
sputnik
btw, i used a ceramic crucible to hold the solution, and i found that i had to use it on DEFROST mode for about 3mins 30 secs before water was gone (i have a 1.5 kw
microw ave freed from a 7-11)
nbk2000 September 22nd, 2002, 01:30 PM

The site describing Golden Powder says that a temperature of between 17?F to 180F is needed to melt the ingredients together.
This temperature is well within the reach of a pot of simmering hot water. A simple double boiler arrangement w ould seem suitable for safe mass production.
And I don't think including a dissecant in a microwave would do any good since the water would be boiled out of it as w ell. Though if you had an air circulator that passed the
microw aves air through an exterior dissicant absorber, that w ould work well.
Kettch42mk.2 September 22nd, 2002, 05:03 PM

A word of caution on microwaving mixtures involving KNO3. I once tried do the same thing with KNO3/Sucrose (figured it would be faster than melting them on the stove) and it
ignited almost instantly on low pow er. It w as only about 5 grams, and it w as in a crucible, but it still made an ungodly mess.
CodeMason September 23rd, 2002, 02:01 AM

Plus microw aves pump shitloads of energy into an already combusting material (especially if it has metal present). Placing an ignited sparkler (hey, I was interested in plasma
physics <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) in the microw ave left permanent black scars on the interior, and probably did godawful things to the
magnetron as well.
inferno October 1st, 2002, 01:09 PM

Would anyone happen to have a synthesis for ascorbic acid? All I can come up w ith is that it's main precursor is d-glucose, grape sugar. Ascorbic acid from a chem supplier is
US$9/25g, even if a food supplier is 10x cheaper, that's still around US$18/lb, way too high to consider for mass production.
Any ideas?
EDIT - found this:

Ascorbic acid is prepared from a 1,4-lactone selected from gulono-1,4-lactone, galactono-1,4-lactone, idono-1,4-lactone and talono-1,4-lactone by a process comprising
protection of the hydroxyl groups of the lactone so as to form an intermediate having a free hydroxyl group at either, but not both, the 2- or 3-position, oxidizing this free
hydroxyl group to a keto group and hydrolyzing the oxidized intermediate to remove the hydroxyl-protecting groups.
Doesn't say much, but may help.
[ October 01, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: inferno ]
nbk2000 October 1st, 2002, 06:49 PM

VitC isn't intended for mass production is the multi-kilo amounts anyw ays. It's a rather specialized propellant that is superior to black powder for certain purposes. Those being
ease of manufacture and use in ball and cap firearms.
But, figure like this...how much would it cost you to make BP of similar quality? Figure the cost of a ball mill, time, explosion hazard, finding proper hardwood charcoal, etc...as
compared to mixing two (or three) ingredients in water and w arming in the oven.
Yafmot May 14th, 2008, 09:06 AM

I make mine in a beaker. 60/40 KNO3 & Vit-C, respectively, with just a couple of ml of w ater. Some people use a pinch of bicarb to keep down any acid formation, but I just
use a bit of household Ammonia in place of some of the w ater.
Heat to boiling while stirring. As soon as the clear liquid starts turning a sort of amber-yellow, remove it from heat and pour into a shallow, disposable Aluminum pan. Put it in
the oven on the lowest "bake" setting, opening the door every hour or so to introduce fresh, dry air. When the water is gone, the propellant should have an amber hue which
lightens toward yellow when finely divided (hence the "Golden Powder" moniker).
Cleaning up the beaker is a snap. After the stuff dries out, just shave off a little from the sides and let it collect on the bottom. Take it outside (or don't if you like a house full of
smoke) and toss a small, burning piece of Visco in it. You'll be rew arded with a big whoosh of smoke and flame (so don't stand over it). Then you just rinse out the black
residue and w ipe it clean with a damp paper towel.
I use the stuff in my old Colt's Dragoon replica, and it outperforms FFFFg nicely. Plus it's way less messy.
Yeah, 18 bucks a pound is a lot to pay for Vit-C, but keep in mind that it only entails 40% of the product, the rest being $4 a pound KNO3. Also, your time is w orth something,
and this stuff is w ay, WAY, WAAAY less labor intensive than BP.
A commercial version is available called "Black Mag-3." It's reprocessed and graphited for better uniformity and handling, but it's the same basic stuff.
Bert May 14th, 2008, 10:22 AM

How do you deal with graining the propellant- I would assume that ballistic uniformity would depend on uniform grain size from shot to shot.
-=HeX=- May 14th, 2008, 10:43 AM

Bert: I would imagine that pressing and then pushing through a mesh while damp would possibly do the job. Then the pellets of it could be then fried out. Is that w hat you
mean? I would process it just like blackpowder.
tomu May 14th, 2008, 03:29 PM

@Yafmot
Vitamine C is ascorbic acid so it doesn't make any sense to use a "pinch of sodium bicarbonate or ammonia to keep dow n an acid reaction"
I recommend to mix also some red iron oxide (about 0.5% - 1%) into the KNO3/Vit-C mix to catalyse the burning.
Yafmot May 14th, 2008, 07:54 PM

Bert, it doesn't handle anything like BP. You just dry it thoroughly, crunch it up and screen it. If you sprayed water on it, even w /alcohol, it w ould just turn to a stiff, doughy,
almost rubbery mass that you'd never be able to push through a screen.
-=HeX=-, same thing. Forget the water.
tomu, the way I heard it, the basic stuff is to keep other acids from forming. I'm thinking Nitric, since it can be had from KNO3. They also said it's especially important in fixed
cartridges, my guess being that something in the brass catalyzes or otherwise reacts with it to form other compounds.
NOTE: If you boil it until it turns medium-brow n or darker, you've overcooked it. What you'll get is a mass such as described above, but with some of the damnedest
hygroscopic properties you've ever seen. If you let it set out for a few days, it'll get nice & dry & crumbly. Then, in another day or tw o, it'll revert back to mush. It will keep
cycling back & forth between the two extremes for months. But here's the wierd part: It doesn't seem to correspond with the w eather/humidity! A couple days of dry, North
wind may leave it mushy, and after a few rainy days it may become crunchy again! But not alw ays. I'm stumped.
DONMAN July 2nd, 2008, 02:22 AM

Vitamin C is not hard to come by in pure form at all..... Go to any well stocked health food store and they will have it. I got mine from Trader Joe's (franchised store) for about
12 bucks for a pound! I guess hippies can't handle the orange flavor that most normal vitamin c tablets have.....
Has any one tried a different oxidizer for this? Say ammonia nitrate? It would be super hydrophilic but might be worth a try.
On a side note.... Vitamin c powder is really awesome to cook with. Like marinades and sauces ect..... :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > ATF updates its list of regulated
explosives...
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View Full Version : ATF updates its list of regulated explosives...
megalomania July 7th, 200 2, 04:32 AM

I t s e e m s t h a t despite a regulatory requirem ent for the BATF to publish a revised list of regulated explosive m aterials every
year, thay have lagged for the past 3 years. Now they have updated their newest list of naughties, and righ t at the top in no
uncertain term s is som e of your favorites.
</fo nt><blockquote>quote:<hr />
In the 2002 List of Explosive Materials, ATF has added five terms to the list of explosives, has further defined two e xp losive
m aterials, and has m a d e a m e n d m e n t s t o t w o e x p l o s i v e m ateria ls to more accura tely reference these m ate rials.
The five additions to the list a re as follows:

1. Azide explosives
2 . H M T D [ h e x a m ethylenetripe r o x i d e d i a m ine]
3. Nitrate explosive m ixtures
4. Picrate explosives
5. TATP [triacetonetriperoxide]
W e h a v e a d d e d t h e s e e x p l o s i v e m a t e r i a l s t o t h e L i s t b e c a u s e t h e i r p r i m ary or com mon purpose is to function by ex plosion.

ATF has encountered the criminal use of som e of these materials in im provised d evices. ``Nitrate explosive mixtures'' is
i n t e n d e d t o b e a n a l l - e n c o m p a s s i n g t e r m , including all form s o f s o d i u m , potassium, bariu m, calcium, and strontium nitrate
e x p l o s i v e m ixtures.
</fo nt><hr /></blockquote>See for yourself at (www.)atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-
explo_pub/listofexp.htm sans the ()
W e l l , I a l w a y s a s s u m e d t h a t a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e a n d H M T D were regulated, so I checked, and they were not. Fortunatly everyone

here already has their perm its in order for the year, right?
pyromaniac_guy July 7th, 200 2, 05:07 AM

Mega,
Does it really m atter if the favorites get include d on the list?
From : TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAP TER 40 > Sec. 844.
For the purposes of subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of this section and section 842(p), the term ' ' e x p l o s i v e ' ' m e a n s
gunpowders, powders used for blasting, all form s of high explosives, blasting materials, fuzes (other than electric circuit
b r e a k e r s ) , d e t o n a t o r s , a n d o t h e r d e t o n a t i n g a g e n t s , s m okeless powders, other explosive or incendiary devices within the
m eaning of paragraph (5) of section 232 of this title, and any chemical com p o u n d s , m ech anical mixture, or device that
contains any oxidizing and com bustible units, or other ingredients, in such proportions, quantities, or packing that ignition by
fire, by friction, by concussion, by percussion, o r by detonation o f the compound, mixture, or device or any part thereof may
cause an explosion.
by a laughably strict interpretation of the above a 2L soda bottle filled with water and dry ice is the same th ing as a stockpile of
HNIW ... Just because the 'favorites' werent on the list doesnt m ean they were ever illegal. if the co m p o u n d c a n c a u s e a n
explosion, it's illegal...
Flake2m July 7th, 200 2, 10:42 AM

Just rem e m ber there is all ways a way to get around. There is bound to be a loop hole in that section of the law. If you find a
loop hole exploit it until they close it.
Anthony July 7th, 200 2, 11:04 AM

I s a n y o n e g o i n g t o m ail them and correct them o n T A T P s u p p o s e d t o b e C T A P ? : D
MrSamosa July 7th, 200 2, 12:07 PM

W ell, they don't have DDNP listed <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" /> . I don't feel like going through their
whole list of banned toys right now, so correct me if I'm wrong. Even so, I'm sure there are PLENTY of other explosive
peroxides we can synthesize and play with.
stanfield July 7th, 200 2, 12:31 PM

heu...... I think I didn't understood what's this list is...
Could you explain to me ? Sorry, I live in Europe so, we haven't any list...
see ya !
megalomania July 9th, 200 2, 02:21 AM

The U S g o v e r n m ent has laws regulating certain explosive m aterials. I always considered the explosives list to be lik e the drug
list, meaning there are things that you can legally do with explosives when they a re not on the list. Rem e m ber GHB? Before it
was on the drug list you could make it, transport it, posess it, even use it. The only thing you could not do legally was sell it.
The s a m e a p p l i e s t o e x p l o s i v e s i n a s i m i l a r m anner.
If you m a d e a c e t o n e p e r o x i d e , p o s e s s e d i t , e v e n d e t o n a t e d i t , t h e l a w d i d n ' t h a v e t h e s a m e teeth to get you as if this

substance was regulated. If you run afoul of a regulated material they can get you on more crim inal charges. For the liscene d
e x p l o s i v e s e x p e r i m enter, this substance carried less restriction.
I u s e t h e e x p l o s i v e s l i s t a s a k i n d o f g u i d e b o o k t o i m portant explosives of com m erce and usefulness. Basicially I assum e if an

explosive is on the list, it m u s t h a v e s o m e superior quality that m a k e s i t a g o o d e x p l o s i v e . T h e s e e x p l o s i v e s a r e t h e r e f o r e
worthy of my attention. There are man y thousa nds of explosives, but all the best always wind up o n the list.
This spring I used the list as a starting point to do a literature search for all the e x p l o s i v e s I d o n o t h a v e o n m y website. Now I
have synthesis refere nces for 9 out of 10 of all the explosivs on the list. Thanks to the list I know where to start loo king for
good explosives.
pyromaniac_guy July 9th, 200 2, 03:37 AM

Mega,
You better watch it if thats your rational and or excuse to uses if you ever get cau ght. The 'list' has the wording to include any
a n d a l l c o m p o u n d s d e f f i n e d a s a n e x p losive in section 844, and thats worded so loosly that eating p o r k a n d b e a n s f o r 3 n i g h t s
in a row could result in your ass being considered a destructive device!
Fl4P P4W0k July 12th, 20 02, 05:2 1 AM

Hrm...
I live in Australia, so this doesnt affect m e.
BUT!!
This is obviously a knee-jerk reaction to the recent spate of terrorism in the east, and fear that they m ay start to occur in the
US.
TCAP is well know as a popula r terrorist explosive due to its sim p l e m anufacture and high power...
D o t h e g o v e r n m e n t R EALLY think that passing new laws to regulate these com pounds will impact upon probable terrorist
attacks?
If th ey do, then its quite laughable.

The only people inconvenienced by these new restrictions are ex perimenters\rese archers such as appear on this forum .
A 'terrorist' wont give a rats ass whether the explosives they are making are illegal. If your plannin g on running into a
restaurant and blowin g urself into chunky jiblets, then the legallity of the explosive is probably the LAST thing on ur mind.
I a m interested to fin d out, If anyone here has been subject to - or knows of - an instance where an explosives experimenter
has had there lab\house searched for illegal materials. Before or after 9\11.
Ill have a little looksee in the Australian laws, to see ho w we are in relation to the US.
Im pretty sure our laws are more lax, but its only a m atter of tim e before Johnny follows Dubya..
l8r peeps,
rob
S. Toppholzer July 12th, 20 02, 05:5 2 AM

Helvetica"> Do the governm ent REALLY think that passing new laws to regulate th ese compounds will im pact upon p r o b a b l e
terrorist attacks? <hr /></blockquote>Nope. But with such laws they
can fuck you over mu ch worse if you ever got caught.
inferno July 12th, 20 02, 05:5 8 AM

Fl4pp4w0k, im not 10 0% sure but id say anything that explodes here is illegal. By just ma king "explosive com p o u n d s o r
m ixtures" illegal mea ns that anything explosive is illegal. They dont have to define all ille gal chem icals etc.
I could be totally wrong but if you think the police can catch you with 100 gram s o f HNIW and its not specifically listed as illegal
theyre not going to do anything, youre wrong. And if youre caught actually detonating it, they could get you for noise pollution,
destruction o f public/crown property, wreckless behaviou r sorts of things...
Magas July 12th, 20 02, 07:0 8 AM

Try looking in the state Dangerous goods Acts. Everything is illegal unless you have a licence. If th ey don't get you with one act
they surely g et you on anothe r. Ie Poor Mans Jam es Bo nd can b e confiscated under the Federal Custom s Act reason "Not in
the Public Interest" Thats why little Jonny banned semi Autos so the croo ks wont use them . HE HE
Fl4P P4W0k July 12th, 20 02, 10:1 6 AM

Helvetica">Poor Mans Jam es Bond can be confiscated under the Federal C ustom s Act reason "Not in the Public Interest"<hr /></blockquote>lm fao... Can you say Fa scism :p
W ho decides what is 'Public In terest'?
*takes deep breath*

P l e a se dont get m e started on how the laws here are totally fucked over.
W ell.... The only good laws here are:

a) Drinking age is 18
b ) P o s e s s i o n of <22g of Marijuana is a deme anor = n o permanent record. Just a fine.
yeah... thats all

/me cries
W elcome to the Fascist State of Austra lia.

*shudder*

Hahaha fl4pp4 yeah laws here are pretty fucked...the "Child Protection Act" is what made fireworks illegal back in '65/'66. A lot
of the laws are just too conservative...
Theres so much to write on the topic im not even going to bothe r, but m any laws and acts can be found at <a href="http://
www.austlii.edu.au" target="_blank">www.austlii.edu.au</a>
spydamonkee July 16th, 20 02, 05:4 8 AM
yea i got busted by thew cops back in the days for "possessing explosives"
all they found was a can of high speed rifle powder, som e steel pipes & a 8 shot repeatair slug pistol with laser glass sight
worth 300$nz
all o f it got confiscate d and i had to do 20 hours comunity service :(
i l l u p l o a d s o m e p h o t o s o f s o m e stuff lata on
so i think i m ust be o n a certain list incase any "big bangs" go o ff in m y town :/ , me a good boy now though :p
the reason i got searched was because of the nosy people i was living with @ the tim e went thru my stuff and freaked like th e
"pansy arsed brainwashed foo ls" they are and called the cops
this was like 3 years ago or m ore
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
R a t h e r t h a n p u m ping up your post cou nt with another post 2 minutes later, why don't you just edit your existing post to include
this? Lazy people get deleted rather quickly here. :mad: NBK2000
*** ok sowwie :rolleyes:
<sm all>[ July 17, 2002, 03:18 AM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : s p y d a m o n k e e ] < / s m all>

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD Synth With Pics
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Anthony July 17th, 2002, 02:45 PM

Being impressed with ALENGOSVIG1's pictorial synthesis posts, I thought I'd give it a go with the humble HMTD synthesis,
seeing as I need to replenish my small stock anyway.
This would have been posted yesterday, but a last minute BBQ and 13 beers got in the way... :) Don't worry though, I'm
paying for it now :(
We start with the precursors:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD01.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/HMTD01.jpg</a>
200ml of 6% H2O2
18gm Hexamine
75ml of 30% HCl
The bottle of H2O2 has previously been chilled in the fridge.
Next, dissolve, with the aid of stiring, the hexamine in the cold H2O2:
Then place the reaction vessel into an ice and gradually add the HCl, with stirring:
Note that you should ideally check the temperature of the solution with a thermometer during the catalyst addition. But I
managed to break my thermometer sortly before doing this synthesis so I resorted to a highly scientific method of dipping my
finger into the solution to check that the temperature had not risen.
The reaction vessel is then placed in the refrigerator for 24-48 hours. I noticed reasonable crystal formation within three hours,
with almost complete formation in under 24 hours. In the following day, little more crystals fell out of solution.
The reaction vessel 48 hours later:
Note that most of my crystals had formed on the bottom of the reaction vessel with a thin layer on the surface - as is normal,
untill shaking of the vessel resulted in a floating foam which would not settle. So I recomend avoiding aggitiation of the
solution.
Then, using a piece of cloth as a filter, filter the crystals from the solution and discard the filtrate:
Note that usually you will need to add some cold water to the reaction vessel, swill around and then dump into the filter in
order to remove the crystals left clinging to the walls of the reaction vessel.
Filtration complete and the crystals in the filter:
[ September 21, 2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]

Gather up the corners of the filter cloth to form a little "bag" and run a stream of water through it from the tap, to wash the
crystals:
Next, prepare an approximately 4% solution of bicarbonate of soda with 200ml of cold water and 8gm of bicarb:
Add the crystals to the solution and aggitate with stirring for a few minutes. The purpose of this is to neutralise any traces of
the acidic catalyst left in the crystals:
Then filter the crystals as before, but ensure that if the same filter cloth is used, that it has been thoroughly washed to avoid
cross-contamination:
Note that at this stage, I was also furnished with a cup of tea. Although eating/drinking is usually discouraged in a lab, I'm
sure you will be fine if, like me, you avoid contaminating your drink with chemicals or worse, your synthesis with tea.
Then it's back under the tap for another rinse:

The filter and its contents is then spread out on a newspaper and placed out of direct sunlight to dry:
24 hours later, the crystals are dry and ready to use:
Final yield was 12gm, hardly fantastic but then this is using pretty dilute OTC chemist H2O2.
Price break-down:
H2O2 - 0.69
Hexamine - 0.19
HCl - 0.19
TOTAL: 1.07
Cost per gram: 0.09
Eliteforum July 17th, 2002, 03:43 PM

Excellent, very informative. If your HCl the One Shot drain cleaner? Or something else? And did you get it at B&Q?

"Spirit of Salts" - local DIY shop
Mr Cool July 17th, 2002, 06:07 PM

Lol, soon you'll start getting people saying HCl doesn't work for HMTD, only CTAP! Maybe now they will see the truth, and
realise that it does work but they fucked it up.
Eliteform: HCl drain opener? I think you mean H2SO4 (that is what is normally called "One Shot"). The HCl can also be found
at B&Q etc., as a stone cleaner.
Nice pics, very informative.
kingspaz July 17th, 2002, 06:18 PM

well done Anthony. the newbies now have a full good quality HMTD synth using easy to get chemicals. hopefully no more new
threads 'Howz can i makez HMTD?'. i like all the pictures. they allways say what words never can which is good as it shows
exactly whats happening.
Resident Evil July 17th, 2002, 08:22 PM

I'll do a AP synth with pics tomorrow if I have the time.
ALENGOSVIG1 July 17th, 2002, 08:55 PM

Dont wase your time taking pics of AP synthesis. Thats been done already. Do something original.
Its good that your trying to contribute though.
Oh and nice job anthony.
[ July 17, 2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
NERV July 17th, 2002, 09:13 PM

Looks like I will have to try the HCL method again. Last time I tried to do it I didnt get any crystals.
sinstar July 17th, 2002, 10:30 PM

My yeild of HMTD is really shitty, well its very powerful but to make a decent cap I have to make two batches, Is this normal?
And mine is not very sencitive, I've tryed hitting it with a hammer, rubbing it between house bricks, shouting at it, swearing at
it evreything! I use the lab out of KIBC, except I replace the 6% with 9% hydrogen peroxide, I don't think I need to change
the ratios as theirs not much difference between the 6% and the 9%, or do I? Oh and good work Anthony!
xyz July 18th, 2002, 02:47 AM

Just sharing a thought for your amusement(a bit off topic, I know): I'd love to see Mr. Bean trying this, especially the bit
about accidentally getting the cup of tea mixed in with the synthesis :) .
None July 18th, 2002, 03:09 AM

My HMTD isn't that shock sensitive either. It takes a hard blow with a hammer to detonate it, I was quite suprised.
I would adjust the amount of hexamine you are using. 6-9% is quite a difference, thats probably why you are getting such low
yields. Besides, you might as well adjust it, because (for me at least) H2O2 is more expensive than hexamine.
I don't have very accurate scales and only ever make small batches. Does anyone know if adding too much hexamine would
reduce the yields? As mentioned before my H2O2 is expensive and i would rather waste hexamine than risk wasting H2O2.
Rat Bastard July 18th, 2002, 03:52 PM

Nice Job Anthony.
Whenever I made HMTD I would use this formula (it worked pretty well with me)
- 45ml 6% H2O2
- 2 1/2 teaspoons Hexamine
- 4 1/2 teaspoons citric acid
( I got it from a member here but I can't remember his name)
I later tried Mega's recipie using 30% H202, but to my suprise I had pretty much the same yield as my 6%. Any suggestions?
S. Toppholzer July 18th, 2002, 04:09 PM

Ratz Bastard - could you please for clarity's sake use grams instead of "teaspoons"? I'm a European and I can't make head
nor tail out of that sort of measurement.
Arkangel July 18th, 2002, 04:12 PM

Hmmmmm:
Coke, Diet Coke, Stella, Orangina, HMTD and if I'm not mistaken a tango bottle at the back. Nicely stocked fridge Anthony! :D
As a newbie to this aspect of our hobie I can't tell you how valuable these guides are. I'd seen Alen's pages and was
thoroughly impressed and this adds to it. To anyone that's thinking of similar things, I for one would really welcome it. Cheers
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I'll do a similar thing for a PETN synth with H2SO4 and KNO3 when I get some more nitrates (my bank balance needs to take
a turn to the happier side first). I'll be doing NG my the same method again soon, I'll photograpgh if it would be considered
too repeatitive of ALENGOSVIG1's NG synth with distilled HNO3.
Close on the drinks. Left to right: bottle of god-awful French beer, stella, smirnoff ice, orange "Glitz" (cheap, pretty nasty
mixed vodka drink from COOP...), stella, Lime "Vodka69".
"tango?" I thought, I don't know how you did it, but I went and checked and there is actually a can of tango at the back. God
knows how long it's been there, the use-by date is July 2002... But it must be the bretheren of the one I had the other week.
I'd stumbled into the kitchen at 6am, grabbed the can, opened the can, noted that no gas escaped, I poured it into a glass
and it formed two distinct, dark orange layers and was very flat, gross. I drank it anyway though because I was badly hung
over and in dire need to liquid :)
Before anyone calls me a Southern Fairly, those drinks are leftovers (I drink what I buy :) ), the closest I have to those girly
drinks is Shit Faced.
Ok, I think that's my masculinity established :D

Ive already taken pics of the xNO3/H2SO4 method for nitro but I didnt get very good pics. Click on the link in my sig to see
the nitro sythesis.
I cant wait to see the PETN pics synthesis though.
Oh and the HCl method works almost all of the time except 2 out of 20 times ive made HMTD it didnt work. Quite strange
really. I dont know what happened. Still, i always use HCL becuase it cheaper then citric acid for me.

My bad, I did check your website, but must have followed an old link to and old version, and saw that NG via H2SO4/xNO3
wasn't listed.
marky July 19th, 2002, 09:37 PM

Can someone do the AP Synth soon?
anyway just a sugestion...
thankyou

That's already been done by many poeple including myself. check out the link in my sig for AP synthesis with pics.
Flake2m July 20th, 2002, 09:56 AM

My HMTD experiment turned out to be a flop. the yeild was so bad that the cyrstals could be hardly seen. The main problems
were avalibility of chemcials (I could only buy 100ml of 6% H2O2). I also didn't have access to a scale or a thermometre.
I will try to make some more HMTD again, but not until I can get some 30% H2O2.
Is there a major difference in yeild if you use HCL rather then citric acid ?
sinstar July 20th, 2002, 10:17 AM

So does this lab need changing? 45ml of 9% hydrogen peroxide(in KIBC they say to use 6% but I can only get 9%), 2 and a
half tsp of hexamine,4 and a half tsp of citric acid. The power of the final yeild is very good but getting a good amount is
about as rare as rocking hourse shit. The final amount I get is about half of Anthonys.
[ July 20, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: sinstar ]

No, it does not need changing.

So if it does not need(HA! got it right this time)changeing why is my yeild so poor?

Using HCl, citric acid, or even H2SO4 shouldn't directly affect the yeild as it is only a catalyst.
To keep the ratios the same, but using 9% H2O2, use 50% less H2O2. It's all linear with different concentrations of H2O2 so
it's just simple maths to work out how much you need (e.g 100ml of 3% = 10ml of 30%).

rc, if HCl reacts with hexamine to form ammonium chloride and formaldehyde then would H2SO4 react with it to form
ammonium sulphate and formaldehyde (H2SO4 being more acidic)? this seems to be leading to the actual reaction
mechanism which produces HMTD.

So Anthony, instead of useing 45ml of 9% H2O2, I would use 22 and a half mls of H2O2?
None July 21st, 2002, 05:10 AM

No, I'm pretty sure you would use 30ml of 9% instead of 45ml 6%. I think he may have meant 50% of the 30ml or
something.
Celtick July 21st, 2002, 07:17 AM

Since I have the 30% H2O2 now, and I have probably the same HCL (thanks to Arkangel <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) I converted the ratios into:
200ml of 6% H2O2 - 40ml of 30% H2O2

50ml of 30% HCl - 50ml of 30% HCl
18gm Hexamine - 18gm Hexamine
But I when I converted Mr Cools ratios I got:
225mL of 6% H2O2 - 45ml of 30% H2O2

150mL of 15% HCL - 75ml of 30% HCL
20g of Hexamine - 20gm of Hexamine
Not much of a d ifferen ce , but it seem s to m e that th ere is to much acid in both of the reactions. But since I don t kno w how to
cut the ratio down, could you give me the proper ratios with these chems.
kingspaz July 21st, 2002, 09:27 AM

the HCl is a catalyst for the reaction so the amount present will only affect the rate. if you need the HMTD fast use more acid.
if you want to save on acid use less but you'll have to wait a few days. the amount of HCl used should be independent of the
other two chemicals.
Celtick July 21st, 2002, 09:44 AM

I know that the HCL just works as a catalyst, but your last reply on my other HMTD problem was:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don 't know the correct ratios but to me that looks like too mu ch acid as I d s ay you only need around
25ml. <hr /></blockquote>I thought that maybe by using too much
acid you could sour your reaction.
kingspaz July 21st, 2002, 05:19 PM

it won't sour the reaction. unless you use waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. but if you use less it saves you money :) . so i'd use
mr cools recipe but with 40ml of 30% HCl.
Celtick July 21st, 2002, 07:17 PM

The amount of HCl wont mind since I got 6 litres for free :D But thanks for the advice! I will experiment and post the results
when Im b a ck from Sp ain (I m leaving tomo rrow)
Anthony July 21st, 2002, 09:31 PM

Interesting point on the role of the acid, thanks for pointing that out.
I just noticed a mistake in my original post. I used 75ml HCl, not 50ml as previously stated, I'm not sure why I mixed that up
because the picture clearly shows the 100ml measuring cylinder to be 3/4 full.
I was shit tired when I made that last post so I will try to clarify the ratios issue:
The easiest way is to work out how much actual (pure) H2O2 there is in the stuff you have.
E.g in 200ml of 6% H2O2, there is 6ml of pure H2O2 per 100ml of total volume. So that's 12ml in the 200ml total.
So whatever concentration of H2O2 you use, you need to work it so that the amount of pure H2O2 stays constant at 12ml.
For 30%: 30%/12ml = 2.5, 100/2.5 = 40ml - which is what you worked out.
Celtick August 1st, 2002, 09:06 AM

Ok, so when using your recipe I should use:
40ml of 30% H2O2 - 50ml of 30% HCl and 18gm Hexamine
But b ecause of the high concentration of the H2O2, shouldn t I us e less HCL since th e reactio n d o e s n t nee d so much
catalyst?
kingspaz August 1st, 2002, 09:22 AM

i personly don't think it matters although my thinking could very well be wrong. if you use less less HCl (30% HCl is 70% water
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) then theres less water added to dilute the H2O2 (but less actual HCl
to catalyse) but if you use more acid then the H2O2 is diluted more by the extra water added (but made up for by more HCl
present to catalyse). so either way the reaction rate would be similar.
Celtick August 2nd, 2002, 07:17 PM

Kin gspaz, today I tried to mak e HMT D with th e above ratios. And (as for now) it d idn t work, in m y opinion due to to o much
acid. Take a look at the <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000414;p=3#0001 92" target="_blank">HMTD threat</a> for the whole story.
kingspaz August 3rd, 2002, 06:14 AM

celtik, check out your post in the other thread: 35 + 5 + 30 = 70ml
in the ratios above it says to use 50ml. i think HMTD could be soluble in HCl or decomposed by the high acidity of HCl.
Celtick August 3rd, 2002, 06:48 AM

I converted the above ratios from Anthony:
200ml of 6% H2O2 - 12ml pure H2O2

75ml of 30% HCl - 22,5ml pure HCl
12ml pure H2O2 - 40ml of 30%H2O2

22 ml pure HCl - 70ml of 32%HCl
kingspaz August 3rd, 2002, 07:11 AM

sorry celtick, i didn't realise you had converted them. well, the reason citric acid is usually prefered for HMTD is because it is
not as acidic as HCl. HMTD seems to be very sensitive to acid contamination so need to be washed well. maybe this is due to
acidity breaking it down. my complete and utter guess would be that if theres too much H+ present then the HMTD will
decompose faster. i'd say it would be better to use less catalyst than needed although it will take longer you will not lose much
HMTD (hopefully). hope that helped but remember i made ALOT of guesses <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Anthony August 3rd, 2002, 02:24 PM

It would make sense, as with the high concentration H2O2 that you are using, there is considerably less water to dilute the
HCl, thus giving an overall higher acidity to the reaction solution.
Flake2m August 4th, 2002, 07:34 AM

I tried making HMTD again using 200ml of 6% H2O2, about 14-16 grams of hexamine and a generous amount of citric acid.
Yet again it is a flop. The experiment has been in the fridge for a little over 24 hours and there has been no visable reaction
:( . I am pretty sure I used pure hexamine as the stuff smelt like fish. What am I doing wrong? or is it just the g[m]ods of
chemistry are stuffing me around?
None August 4th, 2002, 08:39 AM

Flake2m, I have had bad luck making HMTD with low percentage H2O2 as well, although mine was 3%. Hydroponics stores in
Australia sell a product called Oxyplus which is 50% H2O2. Or you may have better luck with AP and 6%.
Has anyone else found HMTD to be more sensitive to shock when made with HCl rather than citric acid? It may have just been
one batch, as i have only made it with HCl once, but it seemed quite a bit easier to detonate with a hammer. It was properly
washed and neutralised.
kingspaz August 4th, 2002, 10:32 AM

Flake2m, we are not stuffing you around because this is a place to learn. we are throwing ideas at the problem trying to solve
your troubles. we obviously can't gaurantee its going to work since we are not the ones doing it. YOU are.
generous amount (too much H+?)? try about 12g of citric. if that doesn't work then maybe it could be your fishy hexamine.
zaibatsu August 4th, 2002, 04:09 PM

Flake2m, here's an interesting quote for you
"No disrespect or flaming of any moderator or administrator will be tolerated"
Do you want to stay here?

ATB, Zaibatsu
nbk2000 August 4th, 2002, 04:43 PM

There's only one kind of person allowed here at The Forum...people wiling to learn and share what they've learned in an open
and truthful manner.
NO ONE who deliberatly passed on false or misleading information would be allowed to remain here. Not member, mod, or
even admin. Simply because such stupidity could get a person killed and further vilify an already endangered (and dangerous)
hobby.
So your suggestion that a staffer would deliberately "stuff around" :confused: about an explosives synth is insulting in the
extreme. :mad:
But since I don't think you meant it in an insulting manner you'l get to stay here. But be careful in the future about how you
phrase things, eh? After all, the staffers have been here for years, and don't take kindly to having their hands bitten by
ungrateful newbie dogs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
(PS: YOU are ultimately responsible for any failures or successes you may have after following advice offered to you here on
the Forum.)
Anthony August 4th, 2002, 07:21 PM

I think we have a missunderstanding here :)
I think Flake2m meant the gods of chemistry, like the crystalisation fairies who decide, based upon abosutely nothing,
whether you get a precipitate or not - actually applicable to this situation incidentally.
Flake2m, First thing I'd do, it confirm that your hexamine actually is, as there's some similar substances used for cooking
purposes. Secondly, I'd try using an alternative catalyst, maybe HCl, to eliminate another variable. I presume your H2O2 is
pharmacutecal, so that should be fine.
If still no joy, give up and try AP :)

Firstly, I am apologising to any m[g]od or admin that may have been insulted by my previous post, I had no intention of
flaming or abusing anyone. I am willing to learn and share information at this forum.
Secondly, Good news :D the HMTD synth is working, the reaction just took a little longer to get going. This probaly just shows I
am a little impatient. The HMTD cyrstals have been forming for a liitle over 24 hours, I will filter and dry them in about 24
hours time.
My HMTD synth is at room temp and it seem to be doing just fine :) .
kingspaz August 5th, 2002, 05:51 PM

good to hear its working!
just make sure you neutralise it thoroughly using anthony's method above and treat it with much more respect and gentler
than BP. this is powerful stuff!
Mic August 5th, 2002, 10:32 PM

Me too I have hexamine who smell like fish. I Try searching the forum and I didn't find anything about the smell of
hexamine. Is your's smell fish too ? or it's that my hexamine have impurities? Mine is like esbit fire starter but it's another
brand.
I tried making HMTD with it but I have used all my 9% H2O2 to make CTAP. So I took 3% but I have not very much so i take
only 50 ml. To this, I add 2.5 gm fishy hexamine and 10 ml HCl. I put it in the fridge 3 days ago and nothing. I will wait until
there is something in the bottom of the solution and i will tell u guys soon.
Ciao

mic, you need to add catalyst aswell. add some citric acid or HCl like you would for AP.
Mr Cool August 6th, 2002, 07:39 AM

He added 10mL HCl <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
Celtick August 6th, 2002, 01:04 PM

I succeed now in making HMTD with 30% H2O2/32% HCl check out my page for synthesis:
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/goth/celtick/" target="_blank">Celtick's Page</a>
Mic August 6th, 2002, 10:39 PM

Ok, there is nothing yet about my HMTD so I add 10 others ml HCl. I think this will speed up a little the reaction.
Nobody's answer about my hexamine's question! What is the smell of hexamine ?? is it normal that it smell like fish or is my
hexamine impure ????
Ciao
0EZ0 August 6th, 2002, 10:48 PM

Someone didn't look hard enough <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Try <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000006" target="_blank">this</a> .

mic, don't get annoyed that nobody answered your question. don't just come here and demand answers we're not a fucking
school and we don't get paid so be thankful for what you do get.
PrimoPyro August 7th, 2002, 08:05 AM

Your hexamine has undergone partial hydrolysis to produce that familiar rotting fish smell of methylamine and/or
formaldehyde.
Haha, you just made a List 1 chemical buddy! Better turn yourself in before the Karma Police get you! :p
PrimoPyro
Mic August 7th, 2002, 10:31 AM

kingspaz: sorry, im not getting annoyed.. :(
oezo: ooops <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I haven't seen that :rolleyes:
and well, there's nothing yet about my HMTD... I'm waiting for it

I am probaly going to get another 200 k3w| points for this but anyway:
I pressed about a gram of HMTD into a small plastic container I found (15mm X 10mm ). I used a chop stick to press the
HMTD, I then put a small piece of carboard on top. I then pressed some BP on top of the cardboard. I didn't have any fuse so
i tried using i bit of rolled up newspaper, this of course didn't work so I settled for plan B. I used a pair of pliers to move the
small container I then threw it into the fireplace we have. Mum was nearby a saw me through it in, "that didn't do much she
said :rolleyes: " as the BP ingnited, then 2 seconds later BANG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> , the
pressed HMTD detonated and all the ash in the fire place went all over the floor, as well as some hot coals. I was lucky the
room had a tiled floor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> .
I have also gained much more respect and care for this stuff.
NERV August 10th, 2002, 06:48 PM

I think that is one of the most k3wl things I have ever heard. Throwing a primary explosive like HMTD into A fire is just plain
stupid. You could have a piece of flaming wood stuck in your head.

if he did he would deserve it. that stupid irrelevent crap does not fit into this topic as its about HMTD synthesis not hot to be a
fucking idiot with explosives. people like you give pyros and explosives a bad reputation.
now back to the topic at hand, HMTD synthesis.

The point of the post was HOW NOT TO TREAT HMTD (someone out there now knows). I just choose to learn the hard way :(
(and believe me I have learnt because I had to clean up the mess! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ). I
have also learnt not to underestimate the power of HMTD :rolleyes: .
The yield of HMTD I got from that synthesis was much less than expected. I only managed to get about 1-2 grams of HMTD.
In conclusion, the next batch I make I will be more patient and let it precipitate over a week, instead of 3 days.
Thank you to the g[m]ods for helping me with the HMTD synthesis :D .
parabolic August 19th, 2002, 04:02 PM

in my dream i attempted to make my first HMTD with 60g 6% h2o2, same as Anthony's peroxide, same make too :) , also 6g
of powdered hexamine, 20g granulated citric acid. i added the citric acid first with no heat problems, then added the hex in
small amounts whilst stiring until all was desolved. i noticed that there was still no heat at all. after that i left the mix to react,
checking for any heat, but still no heat after 1 hr. all i could see after the solution settled was a frothy white substance floating
an top of the solution, nothing on the bottom, and the solution looked as if it was carbonated with loads of still bubbles in it.
but not bubbling.
i left it 24hrs at room temp, and the solution looks the same, to me it looks like no reaction has taken place.
should i add more citric acid, as ive read in some threads to start the reaction off, or just leave it?.
The hex i used is labled "Highlander solid fuel tablets", i smelt them and they smell slightly of fish, and are pale white, slighty
grey. they powder up really well too.
The other hex tablets i have are in a black box labled "Portable cooker, 8 solid fuel tablets", these REALLY stink of fish, so
bad i have to keep them in the box, and they are pure white, i havent tried these ones yet, wanted to try the other brand first.
also, i have a bottle of "cleaner and descaler" bought from b&q it says on the back, ..this product contains hydrochloric acid.
but it dont say what % of HCI is in there and i have not got any ph paper or anyother way of testing to see what strength of
HCI i have.
i wouldnt mind trying Anthony's method which uses HCI, but i dont want to try this cleaner and descaler until i find out if it has
a suitable amount of HCI in it.
any ideas.
thanks for reading.
para.

Hi parabolic, good to see more people from the UK, even if you are from Scotland <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Back on topic:
The commonly available "brick cleaner" HCl is around 10-15%, and is suitable for use in HMTD (be careful still, nto sure about
the impurities).
If there isn't a problem with the Citric (I'm guessing you either bought it from a chemists or a homebrew section of a shop),
and I guess you're using H2O2 from a chemist, then that can't be the problem either. Therefore I reckon its the hexamine!
So I say try the pure-white tablets, they sound like they will work, HTH.
[ August 19, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]

smells like the hexamine is the problem (sorry for the poor joke :) ). the fishy smell is down to the hexamine decomposing.
nice new fresh hexamine is what you need! grey hexamine tablets sound really shitty. as zaibatsu said pure white coloured
ones are what you need.

thanks guys for the advice, btw i was born in salford, manchester so really iam from england and have lived in scotland for the
past 15 years :) , anyway, the white greyish hex is the new hex i recently bought and doesnt really smell, it is the one i tried
with the experiment that didnt seem to werk. to me the hex i used would seem the worst to use as i have reason to belive
from reading past threads on hex, that the fishy smell is a BIG sign to tell me it is the real stuff., and the fishy stuff is pure
white., anyway what ill do is try the exact same experiment but with the other hex, the one that really smells :) .
ill keep you updated and hope i get sume HTMD.
thanks again.
para
parabolic August 22nd, 2002, 05:04 PM

Hi folks, in my dreams it was a success!!, I finally made it . I tried using the old type hex I got from a camping store, the
white and really bad fishy smelling hex. The amounts were, 60grams of 6% h2o2, 20grams citric acid granules and 6grams of
powdered hex. The solution after mixing was very clear, no heat just a nice cold solution at room temp. I left the jar out of
sunlight at room temp for 48hrs, still no heat was felt during all this time as I checked it often., anyway I noticed It had white
stuff at the bottom of the jar and frothy stuff at the top after 48hrs, I filtered it all and poured water over it. I then took a
small swob on a pencil and tried to light it with a lighter but nothing happened. So I used a hair dryer to dry the small amount
I had on this pencil. I then tried to light it again, and to my total astonishment it flashed as quick as I could blink.. this was
amazing. I though black powered was fast.
My only hope is that I can get another couple of boxes of this hex to keep me stocked up, or try the same again with the
newe r hex that didn t seem to work the last time, cau s all it had was froth, m aybe the froth was HMTD and I should of dried
that out and tried it?
Anyway this was most enjoyable, and I can see how carefull I shoud be with this stuff.
Was wanting to know if I should keep the water and HMTD together in a jar, until I need it, then all I have to do is dry it out,
but will this destroy the HMTD over time by having it I water?
I couldn t achieve th is with out the expert knowledge of you guys, ta.
Para.
[ August 22, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: parabolic ]
kingspaz August 22nd, 2002, 06:56 PM

parabolic, make sure you wash the HMTD with bicarb solution as detailed in anthony's posts at the begining of the topic. if you
do not do this then expect an accident. this is one of the reasons HMTD has a bad reputation. avoid contact with sulphur also
as it is acidic.
avoid all scrapes and forms of friction and whatevr you do do not get comfortable making it because thats when it'll go off,
when you least expect it to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
good luck and be careful! and also avaoid the hair dryer for the main batch as the heat will cause sublimation and accelerated
decomposition and therefore a loss of product.
parabolic September 21st, 2002, 11:52 AM

Well, my hmtd works very well, nice loud bang from a 1 gram charge.
Anyway, I have been very disappointed in the amount of hmtd I get from my experiments, I have been using, 60grams of 6%
h2o2, 20grams of citric acid and 6grams of hex. My final yield after 48hours is a rather wimpy .7grams :(
I have tried addin g 10gram s of hex, but the yield ha sn t really ch anged, and I was wanting to kn ow if a nyone can tell me if I
could improve the yield by adding more or less of any of the ingredients.
I do not use "spoons" as a measurement as this is very silly I use only grams or grains, as this is the only way to measure
accurately.
kingspaz September 21st, 2002, 05:39 PM

ok, i think you are using too little H2O2. i haven't got the equations infront of me to work out how much to use but try using
200g H2O2 with the rest of the ingredients the same (20g citric, 6g hex) and see if that improves yields at all. if it doesn't
then atleast you know the H2O2 isn't the problem.
darkdontay October 16th, 2002, 11:16 AM

Just found this while looking for some more experinces with it...
<a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/75332_fill20.shtml" target="_blank">http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/
75332_fill20.shtml</a>
the thing happend about 100 miles from where I live.. I never remember hearing about it though....
It just goes to show you Kewls come in all profile brackets
Oh yeha some info on the FBI analyzing it

<a href="http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/oct2001/bartick.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/
oct2001/bartick.htm</a>
[Not what that guy had made, this is a report on HMTD its self I found.. WARNING this is a FBI.gov site] "
Analysis of a Suspect Explosive Component:
Hydrogen Peroxide in Hair Coloring Developer"
[ October 16, 2002, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: darkdontay ]
nobody October 16th, 2002, 12:15 PM

Have a look at the second page darkdontay posted (fbi.gov) -> this is the patent-recipe. You'll get more HMTD than
hexamine used. The reaction needs 12h, I usually filter after 24h. No cooling needed, just mix all of the hexamine and the
citric acid and dissolve in the H2O2.
I never tried the method with HCl, citric acid is much easier to obtain and cheaper.
[ October 16, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: nobody ]
Aaron-V2.0 November 1st, 2002, 11:43 PM

I tried the HMTD synthesis last weekend three seperate times and they resulted in nothing! :mad: I used Mega's method to
the word (Only I substituted 10X 3% H2O2 for 30%)
500ml 3% H2O2
14 grams Hexamine (First two used Esbit tablets, last I used Colhams tablets.)
21 grams Citric Acid
First batch I mixed the crushed Esbit tablets into the H2O2 and the wax was left on top (No harm to the synth I've heard.) and
lowered the temperature to 10C. I then started mixing in the citric acid (Particle size is similar to tablesalt.) and the
temperature started... DROPPING! :o
I kept stirring it and after about half an hour and putting all 21 grams of citric acid into the mix it had reached a temp of
about 3.9C.
I was pissed so I dumped it.
The second attempt was more or less just to check if it was my chemicals. I had plenty of supplies to waste so I put in the
exact same amount of chems (This time finely ground.) into a capped bottle and shook it up for a minute, with no temp rise
at all!
So, the next day I went into a lovely camping/hunting store and I see a small package of Colhams tablets that're labled
"Hexamine fuel tablets". The interesting thing is that the Esbit brand of hexamine is 14 grams to one tablet (Something like
1"x.5"x.75") and the Colhams are round disks measuring 1" across and .5" tall, they weigh 14 grams to 3.5 tablets! Very
bulky for "pure" hexamine" and it had no wax binder at all.
And I mix it all together like the first time, with no temp rises except a brief 3C rise and that's it. I leave it overnight for 12
hours and it's still just a milky H2O2 mix. I looked at the bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide and it says "Stabilized Hydrogen
Peroxide." Could that be it? Stabilized?
I'll go find some 30% and try it then, hopefully it's just my H2O2.
ALENGOSVIG1 November 2nd, 2002, 12:52 AM

I'd say its either your citric acid is bad or your already weak H202 has been degraded.
NoltaiR November 2nd, 2002, 01:55 AM

NEVER USE 3% H2O2!!! I know that many people have claimed that it works (well I think maybe just a couple people claimed
it, then the rest just assumed they were rigth), but in all the lab tests that I have ever done, none have ever worked with 10
times the amount of 3% H2O2. All you have to do (and it is sooooo easy) is boil it down to 1/10th of the original volume...
and then presto!
And the reason it is 'stabilized', is because there is so much damn water in it that it couldn't possibly cause much of a reaction
(if any).
[ November 02, 2002, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
Aaron-V2.0 November 2nd, 2002, 02:14 AM

I learn something everyday on this website. The fact that Mega's synth mentions using 3% is why I tried it, and when I think
about it boiling down a small bottle of H2O2 should be easy as turning on the burner. :) Now then... I just have to wait until
I'm away from my house... again... In a month or so.
Damn parents. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon17.gif" alt=" - " />
ShockWave November 2nd, 2002, 06:35 AM

since my Ng detonates with the Flah, I don't use the HMTD anymore, so I did my 18gr HMTD in a very small bag and I lighted
the fuse, the bag was just on the ground, nothing on top of it, I ran away and expected a loud kaboom, but it just deflagrates,
when you light 18gr AP it detonates no doubt about it, but i'll guess that HMTD needs to be more confined or the HMTD was
not good,
ShockWave November 2nd, 2002, 07:06 AM

HMTD was good i think, I forgot to read this from mega's site
HMTD will detonate if struck, but will only burn if heated.
sorry !
Anthony November 2nd, 2002, 01:20 PM

Ok, let's clear a couple of things up at first. "Stabilized" H2O2 is perfectly normal, a small amount of phosphoric acid is added
by the manufacturer to reduce decomposition of the H2O2 (by sunlight etc).
Secondly, although I haven't personally used 3% H2O2, I'm sure it must work, and I don't have any trouble with comparitively
weak 6%.
In fact, I made a batch with 9% H2O2 the other day, and within 30 minutes the reaction was pretty much over. Yield was
approx 1/4 the volume of the reactants (with 50ml 30% HCl).
Shockwave, HMTD doesn't need any more confinement than AP. It must have still been damp.
Don't expect a temp rise when using citric acid, it's the hydrolosis of the acid that produces the heat. Citric is a piss weak acid
so theres really no heat produced. Even with HCl, I notice very little, if any temp rise. Now, 90%+ H2SO4 is where you have to
watch out for the heat production.
jarrod December 18th, 2002, 07:58 AM

Anthony, a little off to pic but I tried your synthesis and it didn t work for me.
First I dissolved the hexamine (which were really old army heating tablets, crushed) in the cold H202 (6%)
All seems ok. This took about 5 min but there were chunks of hex floa ting on top about 1mm square .
I slowly added the HCL over a period of 10min. But when the acid came in contact with H2O2/hexamine it went a brown colour
like tea.
The HCL was at a 32% concentration.
Now I have a jar of what looks like tea with no crystals or any sign of crystals forming, after about 40 hours in the fridge.
I think the tablets could have had impurities in them, any suggestions or ideas are welcome
0EZ0 December 18th, 2002, 08:16 AM
One thing would be that the H2O2 is not concentrated enough. Shop around, you are bound to find a source of higher
concentration.
Also something you should know is the Hydrochloric Acid decomposes the hexamine. Citric Acid is also favoured over HCl as it
seems to be harder to produce HMTD correctly using the mineral acid (HCl)
Now about the colour the solution went with the addition of HCl. How old was the bottle that you had? Old HCl tends to make
some funky colours in reactions, from personal experience. Probably due to decomposed plastic in it or something along those
lines(that is if your HCL was in a plastic container).
I would try the citric acid method if you can get ahold of the it. It should not be too hard to find, hell it can be found in grocery
stores, eg. Safeway or Coles.
Good luck to you :)
[ December 18, 2002, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
TheBear December 18th, 2002, 01:59 PM

In the swedish infomania's textfilecollection called "the library" (this is perhaps their least respectable collection but still) I
found a statement claiming that HCl + formaldehyde would yield one of the most carcinogen chemicals known, just even
letting their fumes combine will form this chemical. It is not stated what chemical is formed but if anyone knows what happens
I'd appreciate you telling me :) .
After I read this I didn't think much about just trying to remember "never mix HCl and formaldehyde". And now I was thinking
of making some HMTD, when I realised that during the reaction HMTA is decomposed into ammonia and formaldehyde and if
HCl forms this carcinogen chemical I sure don't want to use HCl to catalyse the reaction.
(for the swedes with the library on hand and whant to check for them selves open "Kemiska reaktioner.txt", 1.3
Cancerframkallande!)
Anthony December 18th, 2002, 04:07 PM

TheBear, I think we should reserve judgement on the dangers of HCl catalysed HMTD until we have more than just a vague
reference from a "text phile"... Chemical name would be a starter... Studies or preliminary research done into it's carcinogenity
etc.
Jarrod, since your from Aus, you might be using "Digger" brand HCl? If so, this seems to be a widely experienced reason for
HMTD synths going brown in colour - as can be seen in the Makeshift Arsenal.
I would first suspect the "hexamine" tabs, being old they may have decomposed through age, if they were even hexamine to
begin with. Does the packaging say "hexamine" on it somewhere?
If your hex isn't the problem, then trying with citric acid, as suggested would be well worth. Some ways just work better with
different folks.
Plus it helps if the Crystal Fairy is smiling on you, else no precipitate for you!
Mic December 18th, 2002, 08:18 PM

I tried making HMTD 2 times with HCl. The first time I used 10mL 9% H2O2 with I don't remember how much hexamine and I
don't remember neither the quantities of HCl but I have taken the recipe in one post from here. The second time I tried with
HCl, It was also a recipe from here and I don't remember witch but it as work very well and I have gotten a very good yield.
Sorry for bad english <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
jarrod December 19th, 2002, 12:32 AM

I am using diggers brand Hydrochloric acid so should I change brands, or is it not important.
And the pack for the tablets said FUEL COMPRESSED HEXAMINE.
I have had trouble if finding citric acid, where should I look. I tried coles and bi-lo should I look in a chemists?
thanx
0EZ0 December 19th, 2002, 12:52 AM

You should have no trouble finding citric acid, you just have to know where to look.
It can be found in little containers at most supermarkets sold near the spices under the name 'Citric Acid'.
It is also sold as a 'Black spot remover' at most pool chemical shops, though it may come in 25 kilo bags.
It is used in home-brewing and is sold in about 1kg lots.
Most information regarding sale of chemicals can easily be found using an internet search engine relavent to your area of the
world.
One should not need to ask about the places to purchase most items, as keeping your eyes and ears open is just as fruitful,
if not more so :p .
About the 'Diggers' brand HCl, I have found that it does produce some funky colours if used in most reactions as Anthony has
said. If it worries you, just head down to a hardware store and purchase another brand.
The Hexamine that you have should be ok, but if it is rather old then head out and buy some more, fresh. Decomposed hex
can have an effect on the yield of HMTD.
Have fun :D .
(Edit): I provide a few sources of Citric Acid as it is a plentiful chemical and has quite legitimate uses. Due to the stupidity of
the Politicos most of my other chemical sources I have now made a vow to protect. Just something i needed to say..
[ December 19, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
nuxvomica December 21st, 2002, 03:02 PM

The best site about HMTD and all other explosives of interest could be found at <a href="http://swi.1av10.nu"
target="_blank">Swedish Infomania</a>. You would probably understand the recepies, although they are in Swedish,
otherwise you could ask Stanley who writes excellent English. :)
kingspaz December 21st, 2002, 06:01 PM

or the best site in english <a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/" target="_blank">http://roguesci.org/megalomania/</
a>
Celtick December 21st, 2002, 08:08 PM

Last week I took for about h undred boxes of army Hexamine with me from leftovers after a exercise :D . Jus t to prove it to
myself I made another batch of HMTD with it tonight (previously I made it with the famous Esbit tablets) I also use 32% HCL,
and it never failed me since I got the right quantities for myself!
Again the results were good, the only thing I do extra is to purify the Hexamine tablets, there is a lot of wax binder coming of
from the 'army' ones. I also used this Hexamine for my HDN synthesis.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/goth/celtick/HMTD.html" target="_blank">HMTD synth</a>
static_firefly December 22nd, 2002, 06:28 AM

I used 50%H202 35% HCl and Hexmine. I winged it so my measurements wernt very accurate. I mixed the HCl and the H202
in around equal parts then chilled it in the fridge. I added hexmine powder and then just placed in a strip of Hexmine. After
about 2hours i pulled the strip out believing that the soultion was saturated. After 24hours nothing. The reaction wasnt
working, or so i thought. In about a week i checked again and whoa the container was like a slurpy (it was a small fishhook
size container). The crystals worried me a little. I had only ever use AP before and was used to a fine powder however these
crystals were around 3mm long. It was powerful but the fact that people have claimed to have it go off from exposure to light
has prevented me from making any more. Id much rather use ap or mekp.
Mr Cool December 22nd, 2002, 11:41 AM

I find HMTD to ppte in very very small crystals (smaller than AP), and also it is very much more stable than any other peroxide
I've encountered. It is the only peroxide to have had any commercial interest.
Maybe if you followed some form of recipe, rather than blindly stumbling forward, then you might have better results?
Has anyone ever found something that can solvate HMTD? AP can be recrystalised from acetone which will improve its purity,
but I don't know of any solvents that can be used with HMTD in practical amounts.
Yak December 23rd, 2002, 10:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
kingspaz
i personly don't think it matters although my thinking could very well be wrong. if you use less HCl (30% HCl is 70% water )
then theres less water added to dilute the H2O2 (but less actual HCl to catalyse) but if you use more acid then the H2O2 is
diluted more by the extra water added (but made up for by more HCl present to catalyse). so either way the reaction rate
would be similar.
<hr /></blockquote>If I remember from school (were doing reactions
and such at the moment) it doesnt matter how much it is diluted because the reaction will be the same but take more time.
Therfor you can make one experment with say 10ml of 30% H202 and one with 100ml of 3% H202 and they would make
around exacly the same amount of HMTD (if both are made same time and its a fair test, so there might be a small
difference) but the 30% would finish faster and the 3% would take much longer but still make the same amount.
ps. Im sorry if this has been said before, i must of missed it if it has.
p.p.s
Helvetica">
nuxvomica
The best site about HMTD and all other explosives of interest could be found at Swedish Infomania. You would probably
understand the recepies, although they are in Swedish, otherwise you could ask Stanley who writes excellent English.
<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" /> all I can really say is welcome to Megalomania's forum,The Explosive and Weapons Forum, the best explosive
forum there is!
[ December 23, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Yak ]
kingspaz December 24th, 2002, 07:44 AM

yak, that wasn't the point i was making. read the post above the one you quoted.
Yak December 24th, 2002, 05:28 PM

Sorry I miss read what you were saying but the quote saying E&W forum is the best E&W forum there is, still stands :)
1337bomber January 23rd, 2003, 03:22 AM

Has anyone here ever successfully made HMTD with H2SO4? I am having a hard time getting HCl, but I have a bunch of
H2SO4 just sitting around...
vulture January 23rd, 2003, 04:04 PM

I have said this before somewhere here, but I discourage making HMTD with mineral acids because they decompose
hexamine into ammonia and formaldehyde.
Therefore, using H2SO4 should be avoided but it will work if you use diluted H2SO4.
NERV January 23rd, 2003, 10:18 PM

Just to warn you ahead of time. If you do use H2SO4, your going to have some real shitty yields (even with dilute acid). I
wouldnt even bother with using H2SO4 because of how crummy the yields are. If your going to make HMTD I highly suggest
using citric acid, it can be easily found in the spices section of your local super market.
1337bomber January 24th, 2003, 12:15 AM

Thanks people! I will save the H2SO4 for AP and TMP. If anybody is looking for hexamine, I found 1 lb of it on ebay for 15
bucks US. I can't get it into Canada, but it is technical grade and if you are in the US it seems like a good deal!
EP January 24th, 2003, 01:58 AM

Helvetica"> it can be easily found in the spices section of your local super market.
<hr /></blockquote>True some places but not others. I see we are
both in the US, but I've tried several stores and asked for it with no luck. I actually sorta found out a place but not really (long
story) that didn't work out, but I guess it was some more specialized cooking store. It's also used for making soap, so
whatever kind of store caters to the soap maker folks would have it. I just ended up ordering 2lbs of it from ebay (just got it
today! :) ) I also saw that hexamine, and might buy it so nobody else bid! :p
edit: I also ordered some hexamine from another place and it should be here in a few days so I can make HMTD. I don't
think I'll ever use up two pounds of citric acid however...anything else it can be used for?
[ January 24, 2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: EP ]
nbk2000 January 24th, 2003, 02:02 AM

I've found citric acid in the canning supplies section of the grocery store. It's used to prevent discoloration of food when
canning.
Rat Bastard January 24th, 2003, 03:00 AM

Where I live, you can buy it at almost any pharmacy. A tad expensive though; about $8 CAN for 100 grams:
<img src="http://krimzonpyro.com/rat/boardimage/citric.jpg" alt=" - " />
EP January 24th, 2003, 03:33 AM

Mine was $5 a pound! :D :p
The canning thing is interesting, I'll look there and try to remember this for when I write about getting it on my site.
[ January 24, 2003, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: EP ]
Evil_Empire October 28th, 2004, 08:30 AM

http://www.ressotami.blogsite.org/book/Bookindex.htm
stupid noob has a good idea on purifying H2O2 so you can get a higher concentration.
good luck and just a point the HCl method does work, i find that concentraions and volumes etc have to be acurate but thats
just me.
Empire.
note: ive only made a few batches so i wont be to perfect at it.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Plastique from Righteous R evenge
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xyz July 18th, 20 02, 01:2 2 AM

I was wondering, while jacking off over Baywatch, if anyone knows anything about the plastique in the Formulae section of
R i g h t e o u s R e v e n g e b y George Hayduk e (the book is in the "Oth er" section of the FTP). I was very doubtful about it when
look ing at the things it is m ade from b u t t h e n h e g o e s o n t o m ention that they taught people to m ake it in the arm y, so it
m ust be true . Does anyone have any information regarding this? Does this really work or is it kewl bullshit? I would look for the
answer m yse lf, but I have my head stuck up m y own arse again. I must use more lubrication, so that I can get it out easier
next tim e it gets stuck there.
Actually, I su p p o s e I d o n ' t e v e n n e e d t o l o o k f o r t h e a n swer here, com m o n s e n s e d i c t a t e s t h a t g a s o l i n e a n d styrofoam won't
do shit, but hey, I didn't pass first grade so what do I know, eh?
P.S. Here is the text from the book so you don't have to go to the FTP for it. W ell, as if you'd both er anyway, I'm the only kewl
little shit here that might think it'd work.
GENERIC PLASTIC EXPLOSIVE

A four-inch square of styrofoam
1/2 part oil
1 part gasoline
Melt the styrofoam, b eing careful not to let it get too hot or near a flame . Let it cool to a thick viscosity. Then, m ix the three
ingredients together in this order: styrofoam, o i l , g a s o l i n e . M i x i n a d e e p p o t a n d , for God's sake, keep this mixture away from
any spark or flame. Use caution. Let the mixture cool to 75 to 80 degree s, then mold or form it into any shape you want. I
personally like to form it into the shape of a huge cock, and then suck it for a while. It will detonate from a fuse or electrical
activator.
P l e a se be warned. Th is stuff is seriously shit. W hen I was a guest of Uncle Sam 's khaki warriors, we taught some people how
to m ake this stuff for serious purposes, like m a k i n g d i l d o s . T h e y u s e d t o l a r d n u t s a n d b o l t s i n t h e m i x t u r e f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f
ventilating and meat-tenderizing any bad guys who hap p e n e d t o b e l a u g hing at their pathetic attem pts to m a k e e x p l o s i v e s .
<sm all>[ July 18, 2002, 12:03 PM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M r C o o l ] < / s m all>
Mick July 18th, 20 02, 01:2 8 AM

dunno why, but this sounds like it belo n g s o n T o t s e o r s o m e t h i n g equaly as shitty.
m aybe i'm wrong and this is a real mixture...but it sure don't sound like it
xyz July 18th, 20 02, 01:3 7 AM

Thats what I thought but I decided to ask here just to b e sure (if it did work I have the stuff to ma ke a hell of a lot of it), but
you are probably right about it being a load of rubbish.
Einstein July 18th, 20 02, 08:2 7 AM

If I have to answer: Thats k3wl napalm ! Molotovs Cocktail (invented in m y country :D ) is like tha t but without styrofoam. Its
g a s o l i n e a n d oil. W h e n y o u m ix gasoline with styrofoam , the styrofoam W ILL "m e l t " i n g a s o l i n e a n d w h e n y o u m e l t e n o u g h
styrofoam to gasoline it becomes stick y. The oil gives m o r e s t i c k y f e a t u r e s a n d b u r n s l o n g a n d h o t p r o d u c i n g b l a c k s m o k e .
So, from my opinion, that wont detonate. It will just bu rn LOOO ONG.
Anthony July 18th, 20 02, 09:1 3 AM

It's junk.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > DDNP Synthesis
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stanfield January 14th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 3 3 P M

Now, this is the third tim e I try to m ake DDNP following exactly the megalomania's synthesis...
I obtain a ye llow powder instead of a "dark brown color" and, when I struck down this powder, it doesn't detonate.
Megalomania said "but it will only burn RAPIDLY if ignited in the open, even several gram s " S o , I i g n i t e d s o m e o f m y powder,
it burnt but very slowy !!!
what are the possibly causes of m istakes during the m anufacture of DDNP ?
(I'm sure I p roduced very goo d quality picramic acid from m y industrial p icric acid, he is re d l i k e m e n t i o n e d . . . )
Any reply is m ore than appreciated !
Mr Cool January 15th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 5 6 P M

The colour of DDNP can vary, depending on crystal size and form , and probably a few other things. IIR C it varies fro m d a r k
brown to lem on yellow, the yellow form normally being produced by recrystalisation from a solvent.
If you had pure picram ic acid, and pure NaNO2/KNO2, then I can't see how anything could have gone wrong, since there
obviously has been a reaction.
I don't m ean to sound patronising, but are you *sure* it's totally dry?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP toxicity
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Actu April 6th, 2001, 04:20 AM

Is there any concern with ap toxicity ? Especially can it be like some other explosives absorbed through the skin ?
Thanks
PYRO500 April 6th, 2001, 03:56 PM

I dontthink ap can harm you by touching your skin (unless its unwashed)and i think acetone compounds will fry your brain if
ingested
CragHack April 8th, 2001, 05:23 PM

I have handled AP, and it does not give you any short term complications like headaches (NG) or any type of rash or blister
(can't think of an explosive that does that, just using an example). this doesn't mean it doesn't have any long term effects.
but if you wash it you shouldn't have problems.
------------------
...
John456 April 8th, 2001, 07:29 PM

If its impure it will bleach your hands and sting a little. other then that its no problem unless you swallow it. Picric acid gave me
a rash after handling it crag.

Picric Acid is toxic, you shouldn't handle it with bare skin!
TylerDurden May 7th, 2001, 08:46 AM

I would like to know this too. There seem to be no short term effects. But what about long term effects?. It's known that
radicals can cause cancer and since AP is a peroxide it will readily form radicals. So could AP cause cancer when absorbed
through the skin or when the dust is breathed? But on the other hand: hydrogen peroxide is used for bleaching hair, so not all
peroxides are dangerous. But there is a possibility that AP and HMTD are. And I think we should find out. Because what if it
proved to cause testicular cancer (or something else)? Then all of you that now are playing around with this stuff will soon have
to join Bob and cry your heart out between his tits.
But you can look to it from the bright side: "only when you have lost everything, you are free to do anything".
Demolition May 7th, 2001, 09:02 AM

Forgive me for asking but what are 'radicals'?
Demolition
Actu May 7th, 2001, 03:21 PM

Demolition: in molecules each bond is made of 2 electrons that 2 atoms share. When a bond breaks up, one atom can take
back the 2 electrons (A-B also written A..B gives A.. and B ie A- and B+) or each atom can take back its own electron so A-B
gives A. and B. These two (A. and B.) are called radicals. Because they don't respect the octet rule they're very reactive and
can cause a lot of damage in cells.
TylerDurden May 9th, 2001, 03:48 PM

Precisely! Now, where are those guys with all the chemical knowledge? You should know where to find this information. And I
think it's important that we know because what if it will cause cancer or some other fine disease? I, for one wouldn't play
around with it no more (or maybe I will because it's too late anyway, depends on the disease).
I don't want to scare you people but it is a possibility and one should know what the dangers and consequences are when one
starts to play around with this stuff. But then again playing with explosives is risky anyway, so...what's a little disease when
one faces death http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.
"First you have to know, not fear, that you're gonna die"

I heard that AP is a carcinogen, source wasn't reliable though. Mind you practically everything today is labelled as carcinogenic,
it's silly really because they're making people less afraid of bad carcinogens like benzene.
PYRO500 May 9th, 2001, 05:14 PM

at one point the acetone I used had benzene in it
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited May 09, 2001).]

You're right in saying that when chemicals are labelled carcinogenic it doesn't tell you if they are really dangerous. That
depends on the amount, and the way you're exposed to it (swallowed, ingested, skin contact, breathed) and maybe even how
many times your exposed to it (even water is a deadly poison: drink too much of it and your gonna die).
But that AP (an organic peroxide) is labelled as a carcinogen worries me nonetheless. Because it could be really dangerous
like benzene! Hopefully someone can tell us.
I always knew there was a chance of being poisonous but if I was about to experiment with this stuff for the first time I would
think twice and wait for the definite answer.
And PYRO500: I'm sorry for you man! Benzene in the acetone! You better ask yourself what you wished you'd done before you
die.....and go do it.
"Only when you have lost everything, you're free to do anything"
PYRO500 May 10th, 2001, 05:42 PM

I only used a quart of it, and it was only in small amounts, btw many commercial metal cleaners contain benzene, if you were
to fill a squirt gun with one and soak someone with it they'd get hives all over
John456 May 10th, 2001, 08:42 PM

Yuck, mine has benzene in it too. Anyone know how much is in it or if it presents a serious risk? I expect to develop some sort
of cancer in my lifetime, but better later than sooner http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
PYRO500 May 10th, 2001, 09:25 PM

I'm guessing you have the stuff with the purple jar and the plastic/metal screw on lid, that stuf is cheap and I did not have as
good results with it, I personally would go with a 1 gallon can of acetone, they are worthwile if your gonna make alot of ap.
mine has lasted many months, although after being left in the rain the top has rusted you should frobably put it in a plastic
jug (kidding, acetone eats most plastics, but I will probably put it in glass jars
John456 May 10th, 2001, 10:25 PM

It came in a quart red metal solvent can, its ACE brand. Its in a glass jar now since the solvent cans are hard as hell to pour
without spilling it all over. On the back it says "Use of this product will expose you to benzene, which has been known to cause
cancer in laboratory test animals". Does the kind you buy now contain no benzene? What brand is it?
PYRO500 May 10th, 2001, 10:52 PM

the kind of acetone is klean strip I think. all the chemicals I use are in this picture:
geocities is not letting me link to this pic so cut and paster this into your browser.
"www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/chemicals.JPG"
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited May 10, 2001).]
John456 May 10th, 2001, 11:32 PM

I think i saw that brand at the store but it was a lot more expensive than the other stuff.

OK, can we go back to the topic? And that is if AP or HMTD are poisonous/carcinogenic.
bryan_wilson65 May 11th, 2001, 07:28 AM

The first time I made AP I tasted it. I knew that was safe, because it is not soluble in water. It could have contained traces of
the H2SO4, but I simply pH tested it during the manufacturing process. After rinse with NaOH it was at pH 12 and after
extensive wash with water it got down to pH 7 again.
Now, if AP is a carcinogen I can't tell, but I have an interesting link for you.
http://www.open.k12.or.us/mars/etag/mmpfs121.html
Maybe it's not?

It is safe because it's not soluble in water? Great logic. Can't argue with that. And since your still alive you probably conclude
it's not poisonous right?
By the way, how did it taste?
Since it's safe (because it doesn't dissolve in water!) I have an idea: why don't you taste every day a little bit more and tell us
what happens. When we stop hearing from you we can figure out the LD and this way you made a positive contribution to this
forum after all http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.
bryan_wilson65 May 11th, 2001, 03:27 PM

A solid, which is not soluble in water. And I know the formula. Yep, it can be tasted once if it's pure. But I don't know your lab
technique, so I can not recommend you do it.
Now there is only one problem, AP could be carcinogenic, but the article (which you of course neglected) is about the use of
acetone
peroxides in food. Read it, and judge for yourself.
Well, you could probably tell me what it tasted? I knew it before I did.

OK, I'm sorry. I neglected it because I thought your where not serious. I just read it and maybe you're right: when they use it
to bleach flour it probably is safe.
But it's not certain. And I wonder why they would use especially acetone peroxide for this purpose? It's a sensitive primary
explosive one should expect other bleaching agents to be more handy. But thanks anyway for your help.

Delete
[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited May 13, 2001).]
bryan_wilson65 May 12th, 2001, 03:11 PM

It did not taste anything, because it is not water soluble.
If you sniff it into your nose, you would probably feel a bit more uncomfortable. I did the first part, will you follow? http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
FadeToBlackened May 12th, 2001, 04:10 PM

Some very odd things have been used for bleaching in the food industry, one being nitrogen trichloride (NCl3), which is also
sensitive and unstable.
PYRO500 May 12th, 2001, 06:44 PM

the acetone peroxide we know is tri acetone tri peroxide they did use just acetone peroxide in bleaching applications

Yes, and it doesn't mean AP is safe anyway. It just means AP is a bleaching agent and the reaction products of AP with flour
are not poisonous (if you trust the authorities for that. I don't).
But it doesn't tell us anything about the toxicity of AP itself (if it will bleach flour, imagine what it can do inside your body!)

It may not actually bleach the flour, but catalyse the maturation process that turns the flour white.

I did a quick search on the internet to find out something about the toxicity of organic peroxides. But there was very little
information on it. Datasheets of wellknown organic peroxides like benzoylperoxide don't mention carcinogenicity. That is to
say: they don't know it yet if it is a carcinogen or a mutagen. The information is "not available" or it is "investigated" or
"studied". By the way, the lethal dose of these chemicals is not very low, so as long as you don't eat it you don't die
immediatly.
Maybe someone else can find the information (information of any organic peroxide is good). If not, than playing with this stuff
is even more dangerous than it is already: it may kill you in a slow way without a bang. But maybe not.
PYRO500 May 13th, 2001, 04:48 PM

hydrogen peroxide is actually very toxic to cells, that is why you use it as an anti infectant, one of the things in your cells are
called lysosomes, these contain h2o2 and break open when the cell dies dissolving it, one of the causes of aging is from leaky
lysosomes

I have also tasted it and it is slighly sweet like suggar...but tasting something doesn't mean to swallow it http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif !
Peroxydes are indeed toxic by contact with the skin (especially the thin parts!) because of their propention to generate free
radicals that are extremely reactive and denaturate living cells (kills them or produces mutations that often induce local
carcinomes!).
Now learn that your saliva and your blood contains enzymes especially catalase that degradates fast peroxydes into ethers
and water!
And peroxydes are produces while cells are working (in situ) near organites and especially near mytochondrias...wher you can
find H2O2 and O2(2-) (superoxyde)! Thus the cells must neutralise it otherwise it would kill it!
------------------

That might be true, but it doesn't answer the question: will acetone peroxide kill you the slow way?
So the question still is: is acetone peroxide (or HMTD) a carcinogen/mutagen/poison?
And if this information is impossible to find, information on other organic peroxides might be helpful and give an indication.
Someone?

Toxicity must be high if a big quantity is ingested or upon a prolonged contact with thin parts of the body skin!
Anyway think a bit to what I have said, if it kills cells then a big quantity will kill all the cells it goes in contact before being
deactivated by body enzymes (since when killing the cell, it breaks cells membrane and thus release all actives enzymes that
will neutralise it).
Thus imagine a little what are the number of cells in the long way from your month to your stomach you need to kill before
being killed..not an easy question, I know!
Also consider that CTAP will release aceton...is aceton non toxic agent? ... NO... so it is indeed a poison as toxic or even more
than an equal quantity of pure H2O2 or Aceton!
Now do a little search on LD50 of H2O2 and Aceton and imagin what could be the lethal quantity of CTAP!
Now in injection it is lethal in a few seconds since peroxydes set O2 free in the blood due to catalase presence in the
media..and injection of gas bubbles in the blood stream produces paralysis/tromboses!
------------------

Too tired: mouth instead of month!
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
PYRO500 May 18th, 2001, 05:43 PM

tromboses? don't you mean thrombosis as in forming blood clots in a blood vessle or chamber of the heart?
PHILOU Zrealone May 21st, 2001, 05:02 AM

Yes precisely...in contact with air or oxygen, blood can make clots and stop the flow of the blood stream necrosing a piece of
the brain, the heart a blood vessel!
Sometimes even a single bubble (of oxygen) can do the same, thus you don't actually need clot formation!
------------------
TylerDurden June 19th, 2001, 04:10 PM

A very important question. Still no answers. Anyone?
cutefix June 20th, 2001, 05:02 AM

Explosive toxicity is not a thing to be worried,rather than not being blown by your own creation.If you are afraid of toxicity ,then
you are afraid of chemistry,it has become your master then its better for you to have a life far from it.
Chemistry should be our dutiful Servant,not the Master!
CragHack June 20th, 2001, 06:40 PM

yeah... right... a very well crafted answer that makes no sense. i mean just because something is toxic to handle doesn't
mean you should give up explosive chemistry. should everyone give up this field cause TNP will hurt you if you don't where
gloves when you handle it... now i am sure you can answer that question yourself.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
cutefix June 21st, 2001, 09:59 PM

I think it makes sense craghack.Fear is the result of ignorance.If one is deeply interested in chemistry,he will know how to
protect himself while doing the experiments.If he has enough learning due to deligence,he can emancipate himself from his
fears.
Knowledge is th e lig ht that remove the darkness of ig norance.
Mekap June 21st, 2001, 10:49 PM

Brian_Wilson65 says "The first time I made AP I tasted it. I knew it was safe, because it is not soluble in water".
Philou Zrealone says "I have also tasted it and it is slightly sweet like sugar...but tasting something doesnt mean swallow it"
Great fucking idea, can you peckerheads test some of this potassium cyanide I just made?
Philou are you female? Because you should really learn to swallow!
[Philou has been here for a long time and is quite experienced in chemistry. mabe it wasnt a good idea but dont be an
ignorant shithead]
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited June 22, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone June 22nd, 2001, 10:35 AM

I know, I know not clever!
To taste things...but I do it in very very little quantity and never swallow it!
I can tell you that the mercury-silver amalgam I have in my teeth should be quite toxic too.I can tell you also that with all the
things I have tasted in the past (when I was young and stupid) I should be dead by now (phenol, mercury, nitric acid,
chlorhydric acid, sulfuric acid, ammonia, KNO3, NaClO3, suggar ;-),trichlorethylen, trichlorethan,tetrachorometane,...my
conclusion is that toxicity is a mather of dosis and of swallowing!
I think it is a good idea to taste and smell some things even if it is dangerous so if by accident you smell the same
somewhere you know what it is!I'm sure you can distinguish from each other chlorine, ammonia, iodine, NO2, HCl, phenol,
benzene, toluene, xylene,... and all those are toxic by inhalation !
Why have I tasted CTAP? Simply because I know it can't harm me in the quantity I have taken; also I'm a very good chemist
and know what can happen to it when in contact with my saliva...I know peroxydes is part of every single living cell!
No, I'm sorry for you but I'm a guy - a tripod.

BTW I have already asked the question about women in explosive field on alt engr explos one year ago and it seems the field
doesn't interess girls that much since no single answer was recieved except from males!
------------------
BrAiNFeVeR August 4th, 2001, 08:13 PM

I haven't tasted any of my AP, but the fluidic remains do smell very nice (sweet, i recognize the smell, but can't
identify)29%HCL/6%H2O2/pure acetone, no benzene.
I think I'm getting addicted to the smell ...
------------------
FarbrorBosse July 18th, 2002, 11:28 PM

The most dangerous part about ATCP is the creation. If you do not use a closed bowl
or well ventilated area acetone will dissolve those little brain-cells in your head...
Also if you use H2SO4 as catalyst there might be a chance of getting chronic
inflammation in the larynx (vocal chords) or cancer. There is a reason many workers
at ammo factories died of cancer due to bad ventilation and such combined with bad safety procedures.
The acetone used in ATCP creation is a solvent. It is a damn good solvent.

Acetone has very good fat dissolving properties and will be inhaled, absorbed and
transported around in your bloodstream and some of it will reach your head and little
by little dissolve your brain cells.
Tasting ATCP causes less cancer then the fried potato chips or french friess you order at Mcdonalds.
Acrylamide is created in fried food and might cause cancer and neurological problems(in large dozes).
Many molecules will cause damage to you in one way or another.. just like nitric acid(HNO3).
When dropped on the skin, the acid produces a yellow coloration because of the reaction of
the acid with certain proteins to form yellow xanthoproteic acid.
Visit <a href="http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chindex.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/chindex.htm</a> if

you want to learn more.
In some rare cases I have put some crystals on my tongue to make sure
no acid vapors are left, like baking a cake if you made it you have
the legal right to lick the bowl. :)
Mr Cool July 19th, 2002, 08:21 AM

Moving to "Other Explosives"...
Mick July 19th, 2002, 11:57 AM

i haven't tasted AP.
i look at it this way,
if you drink acetone - you end up sick.
if you drink H2O2 - you end up sick.
if you drink HCI - you end up sick.
so i figure, if the original products make you sick then theres a fair chance that the output will make you sick too.
maybe i'm wrong, but its a pretty safe way to play.
as fas skin absorbtion goes - i don't really know.

i have noticed that when i make AP i do become iratable after i have handled the final (wet) product, and i feel like i
overheat(sort of feel smothered, and get hot flushes) quite easy after making AP.
these symptoms are doubled if i leave my AP to dry infront of a heater. the air gets a funny smell to it, and when i enter the
room i'll get a really bad hot flush across my chest and stomach.
if i make APputty(using ping pong balls) then the symptoms are tripled, and i feel really hot all day and my head feels
"cloudy" and hot.
once the AP is dry, i can handle it all day long and it has no effect on me.
these symptoms appear after 20-30mins of handling the wet AP, same with APP. and they happen instantly if enter a room
where i have heated AP, but they stop once a leave the room and get fresh air.
AP may possibly effect Blood sugar levels too. i have noticed after making AP that my surgar levels go down(not very far,
usualy 1 point somtimes 2 or 3 if making APP)
these problems only appear to be short term(24hours).
its probably just me, but these seem to be the effects wet AP(and APP) have on me.
its been about 3-4months since i last made AP and i so far haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary.
thats my take on it.
[ July 19, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]

This reply is to Mick mainly and is a bit out of topic..
If you drink 1 tablespoon of Cl you might die.

If you add 1 tablespoon of Na into your popcorn you might blow your teeth out and
might burn your tongue a lot.
Now if you mix the 2 and let them react with each other and add this
to your popcorn it tastes a lot better then without it it.
So if you choose to eat popcorn with just butter its fine but
try with some NaCl it tastes great. :)
I can go on forever but I'm not an asshole, and my intention

was just to make my point clear.
[edited]: I get sleeping disorders when making large batches of ANFO or RDX,
although I use gloves and airtight environment but my guess is the body does
not like the fact you are dealing with things that might transform you in to
a pile of flesh and blood on a wall and your body might produce stuff inside
of you that is not normally produced like a lot of adrenaline and god knows what...
Some people hold the filter by hand when washing ATCP, and uses a piece of cloth or
similar. Holding your hand in cold water for a few minutes will cause a hot feeling
in the hands when they are dry again.
Also if you make ATCP and use H2SO4 or HCL as catalyst nasty fumes will be created
when you wash it with water that might cause irritation and other more bad symptoms
if you are exposed to it.
[ July 19, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]
rikkitikkitavi July 19th, 2002, 07:10 PM

micks got a point there.
since the ingredients are harmful, it is not unwise to assume however that the product is harmful (which it is , but not in a toxic
way:)
however it is always easy to jump into conclusions. Since no data about AP:s toxicity is available we have to go with second
best:
other peroxides , and their properties.
And it is always safe to asume worst case scenario and work from this.
Still , exposure to most carcinogenic substances doesnt cause cancer overnight but takes extended exposure before signs of
cellular change appears. And extended means working with it daily for years! What are the odds for one of us making several
batches of AP everyday for many years without having an accident?
The low solubility of AP in water works in our favour. And it is not very volatile either which makes exposure through inhalation
less likely.

Rikkitikkitavi I see no point in assumptions.
I agree drinking hydrogen peroxide will not give me or anyone else a Nobel price :)
But it is to easy saying two dangerous substances will most likely

lead to a dangerous byproduct. I try looking at it in another perspective.
Everything negative has a positive counterpart.
Hydrogen peroxide is not good to get into your body, inhaled or

absorbed by the skin. However the body itself produces a lot of this
in all metabolic functions and also produce the peroxisomal enzyme
'catalase' to degrade hydrogen peroxide into water. You can read
about this in any document bringing up the subject peroxisomal
b-Oxidation, or beta-oxidation.
"http://www.peroxisome.org/Scientist/Biochemistry/boxidationtext.html"
Catalase does not directly and deliberately affect any particular

enzyme pathway. Its purpose is is to remove toxic peroxide that is
derived mainly as a byprduct of the production of ATP in the
mitochondria from the complete oxidation of glucose.
Catalases are used to scavenge for and destroy peroxide.
Hydrogen peroxide and Chlorine are both used in water for killing unwanted bacteria's
etc. I prefer to have a little bit of a poison into the in the pool considering
what might float around in the there sometimes ;)
And I do not eat ATCP like an everyday procedure.. I did it when I was 14 and
now days I always use airtight environment and goggles when doing research.
rikkitikkitavi July 20th, 2002, 03:27 AM

I only make assumtion when I dont have hard data. And these assumptions are based on similar compounds and the specific
physical properties of AP.
And to be on the safe side I handle it like if it was toxic and carcinogenic, there is ways to protect you against that
(hood and googles for one example) especially since we dont make it everyday.
I would never ever cool my batches in the ordinary fridge f e x.
AnywAY, Im not the worried about AP. Then there are other , more vicious compounds we can deal with. As for the harmful
reagents. I agree, it is hard to say what comes out when they are mixed specific knowledge is most important so one dont
walk in the dark.
But how can you say that a negative part has a positive counterpart? that is not chemistry, but
new age? (this is not a flame , im just curious)
/rickard
[ July 20, 2002, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: rikkitikkitavi ]

my basis for saying what i did is this,
all of the ingredients will poison you(some more the others depending on the amounts consumed)
so due to fact that there is no data to suggest that the final product safe to consume, i will assume that it is poisonous.
look at it this way,

you can consume it - and run the risk of poisoning yourself or giving yourself cancer or some shit.
or you can not - and nothing will happen.
it doesn't take einstien to figure out what the logical thing to do is.
and above all, why the fuck would you want to eat AP in the first place? its not made for eating, its made for blowing stuff up.
one of the safety rules in a lab is, don't eat or smell or touch stuff unless that is what it is intended for.
if your in a lab and you see a beaker full of clear liquid, you don't say "gee, i'm thirsty..." *glup*, because chances are you
just took a big drink of high conc H2O2. thus, you = fucked.
if you don't know what it is, or what it does, or what its intended for - don't fucken eat it.
so, i think the question "should we eat X chemical" doesn't really need to be debated.
if its not sold over the counter as a food product, then i don't plan on eating it.
i really don't think anyone here knows what the effect of AP is to the human body, and i don't anyone here has the resources
to find out.
so i doubt were ever going to find an answer.
[ July 20, 2002, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]
Sparky July 20th, 2002, 01:59 PM

I searched around on google and found :
<a href="http://www.atofinachemicals.com/plants/canada/pdf/ds/912.PDF" target="_blank">http://www.atofinachemicals.com/
plants/canada/pdf/ds/912.PDF</a>
Which is about a product called Luperox 224. It contains about 42 percent acetyl acetone peroxide. I wasn't sure if this was the
same as the AP we're always talking about. It says it is not carcinogenic or mutanogenic.
<a href="http://www.unece.org/trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2001/English/Part2-2.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.unece.org/

trans/danger/publi/adr/adr2001/English/Part2-2.pdf</a>
Has some information on acetone peroxide but it is buried amongst lots of other info (it is a long document).

"Everything negative has a positive counterpart."
(God damn you are right it sounds like "new age!) *hits himself on the forehead*
I should have made myself more clear it seems, but at the moment it sounded good...
Was a bit slow to reply but I have been researching some with my 10 meter Cu+Al shaped charge anti car device(just in theory
ofcource), so I have been busy all day.. uploaded to the ctrl_c ftp/-=Uploads=-/obitus/ for those interested.
I thought it would be easier to explain while using this new age expression rather then reactions where 2 dangerous
substances cancel each other into a no lethal salt etc...
I thought the Cl + Na => NaCl would be enough but I guess not.

NaCl is salt bought in any Food store and is not lethal.
(Just pointing it out to not get any further comments).
I agree wholeheartly with you Rikkitikkitavi, lab material should not in any way get mixed with common products, such as
fridge stuff and such, just like goggles should be worn whenever being in a lab, even if you have no H2SO4 close someone
else might make a mistake and H2SO4 might get in contact with your eyes by accident.
I'm not going to argue about it, you're right. If no hard data is precent it is better to be safe then sorry.
Mick, Eating, inhaling touching.. If you watch ATCP closely you see a thin stream of ATCP crystals rising into the air when
heated.
Even at room temperature a small stream of crystals will rise into the air until
there is no ATCP left in your sample.
Ie: Unless you are working in a lab environment with good ventilation, carrying the ATCP dust away from your area, you will be
exposed to ATCP whether you want it or not, and will not eat it, but inhale it.
So either keep ATCP at a temp < -162C or wear some sort of dust filter :)
[edit]: Disable of smilie...
Papa Lemming August 7th, 2002, 01:51 AM

I don't know if this is important, but I'll put my two cents here:
In this everytime more paranoid and health-concerned society, it's not surprising that dangers about certain issues are being
worthlessly inflated, unfortunately, many times for the sake of knowledge. Maybe it's because of my ingenuity, but I think that
probably some of the stuff that gets advertised as really dangerous isn't as dangerous as they say. Whether this is correct or
not, it is worth taking the risks, as they will ultimately expand out knowledge base and our interest in the subject. If by
working with benzene I'll understand organic chemistry better, for me it's a risk worth taking.
Well anyways... the other day I was quite surprised to find out that trusty phenolphthalein is a human carcinogen and induces
mutations and other genetic bad stuff. :confused:
EDIT: added a sentence.
[ August 07, 2002, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Papa Lemming ]
Pu239 Stuchtiger August 7th, 2002, 02:32 AM

There are probably very few compounds that aren't carcinogenic to SOME degree.
Fl4PP4W0k August 29th, 2002, 11:30 AM

Toast causes cancer. Im serious :D
I'll try 'n find the news paper article on it... something about the carbon. lol.
vulture August 29th, 2002, 12:36 PM

BBQ stuff can also cause cancer. Simply put, when the organic amino acids and other carbon structures get heated too much,
they will form polycyclic aromatics and/or dioxines, which are both toxic and carcinogen. This goes for all food that's been
heated too much...
inton September 25th, 2002, 11:43 PM

Ap can only harm u if u ingest it i know cos i tried it. well not ingested it but got it on my skin and stuff.
--------------------
don't use 'u' in the place of you. use proper english. this is NOT a chatroom. you have been warned! - kingspaz
[ September 26, 2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
NoltaiR September 25th, 2002, 11:57 PM

Hey inton; I don't usually like to take the position of a mod, but if you plan on hanging around this place very long than
consider trying to talk like a professional, not like another kewl.
FarbrorBosse September 26th, 2002, 07:16 AM

Inton said something like AP can harm you if you get it on your skin. Or at least that's the way I interpreted it..
Inton, in what way did it harm you? and did you really neutralize the AP, else it was not the AP that harmed you, but the
catalyst. Try to describe more, and be more specific.
Note:
I'm worthless at spelling but I try to remove as many flaws as possible, and there is a way to remove like 99% of all the
spelling errors.
#0 copy your text before you hit <Add Reply>.

#1 open another window.
#2 type <a href="http://www.hotmail.com" target="_blank">www.hotmail.com</a>
#3 login to hotmail and hit the compose button.
#4 paste the text into your compose window and hit spell-check.
* If you have any other language then english, correct this in the options and set it to english.
[ September 26, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]
Korfaction September 29th, 2002, 01:08 PM

AP can be ingested in small quantities, and can't go thru the skin as far as I know. but it doesn't mean you can eat a plate of
AP for lunch :) , and the problems with AP almost always come from side reactions cause of not having washed it, not pure
chems...
Do you imagine the news: "Kamikazes ingested the bomb to pass thru HE detection..." ? :D
vulture September 29th, 2002, 02:58 PM

Those of you who are so afraid of benzene in their acetone should never refuel their car. Gasoline contains up to 2% benzene
which is inevitable because of the close boiling point shared with other aromatics in gasoline. Most OTC acetone is also
distilled from petrol and will always contain trace amounts of benzene. In the 60's-70's alot of school labs still experimented
with benzene.
The odd thing is that once when it is labeled as carcinogen, the stuff is considered much more dangerous. For example,
almost everyone on this forum has once breathed H2S gas which is as toxic as benzene. But I think you would freak out if you
smelled the same amount of benzene, just because of the stigma attached to it.
I would like to have some benzene, VERY interesting precursor.
[ November 06, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
knowledgehungry November 5th, 2002, 08:35 PM

AP is actually used as a bleaching agent in some flouronfused: do a search and you will find results for AP as an ingredient in
flour. I am not sure whether mono dimer or trimer is used nor the amount used. Anyone suicidal up for testing?? :p
EDIT: silly me it has been covered i am sorry for wasting your time
[ November 05, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: knowledgehungry ]
Eliteforum November 5th, 2002, 09:58 PM

knowledgehungry, I belive what you posted has already been covered.
-----------------------
i believe you're not a mod so don't try and be what you will never become - kingspaz
[ November 06, 2002, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Black Powder
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View Full Version : Black Powder
A_W March 11th, 2002, 01:30 PM

This might be a stupid question, but here goes:
The formula for blackpowder is by weight 75 % potassiumnitrate, 10% sulfur and 15% charcoal right? Supposed I don`t have a
scale and I wish to make it by volume (for instance teaspoons). What are the ratios by volume?
xoo1246 March 11th, 2002, 01:42 PM

If you knew the density of the chemicals, you could calculate it, now go search before the forum monsters eat you alive. <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
And you will probaly be dissapointed if this is the first time you make bp. Mixing the stuff together isn't good enough if you
have the intention to make make good pb.
RTC March 11th, 2002, 02:15 PM

Well you should be able to work it out from your own post, for example you said:
"75 % potassiumnitrate, 10% sulfur and 15% charcoal"
If you were measuring it out with tablespoons, you could do say, 7 and a half for 75%, then 1 table spoon of sulfur, and one
and a half of charcoal.
Not exactly the best way to measure something, but in a crisis it will work.

BBQ charcoal briquettes are useless because they use a slow burning charcoal but also because they are full of clay.
A stright swap of weight units for volume units is useless as good charcoal is many, many times less dense than KNO3 or S.
If you really have to do this rather than spend /$10-/$15 on some digital kitchen scales then I'd do the KNO3 and S as
75:10 by volume and then use trial and error to get the charcoal quantity right. But as was said, if you're simply mixing the
components with little or no grinding the result will be shite even if you have the perfect ratios.
kingspaz March 11th, 2002, 05:24 PM

the chemicals you will be mixing are powders. if you squash the powder its density will increase. if you shake a powder around
in a container its density will decrease as more air mixes with it. what i'm getting at is that powders do not have a consistent
density.
its woth investing in cheap diet scales. the measure in 5g intervals so they are accurate enough for BP. if your going to do it
do it properly.
xoo1246 March 11th, 2002, 06:52 PM

True, but he asked for a method not using a scale. Best I could come up with, although I agree with you.
ALENGOSVIG1 March 11th, 2002, 08:03 PM

Well, ive made bp lots of times and i usually dont even weigh the chemicals anymore. I just adjust the chemicals until it burns
the way i wannt it. and the volume of charcoal is usually more than the volume of the potassium nitrate. This all depends on
the density of your charcoal ofcourse.
xoo1246 March 11th, 2002, 08:46 PM

I felt like telling it, charcoal has an approximately density(g/cm3) of: oak 0.57 and pine 0.28-0.44 .
[ March 11, 2002, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
NoltaiR March 11th, 2002, 08:59 PM

Ahhh... the one thing that I probably have more experience with than anyone else here, improvised BP.
As you stated, the 75:15:10 ratio is for weight only; if you try to do this by volume then you will be WAY out of proportion and
your final product will have extremely poor performance (assuming that it ignites at all). Coincidently, although I make BP just
about everyday, only a few times have I ever used a scale to measure it. (After a while you can just poor your charcoal, sulfur,
and potassium nitrate into a coffee grinder and estimate pretty close)
Anyways according to the IM handbook, use a 3:2: ratio by volume of GRANULATED KNO3:PULVERIZED
CHARCOAL:POWDERED SULFUR
This procedure is pretty much exactly what the book says, but everything in parenthesis are my comments.
This mix is put in 2 parts water and heated until it is 'bubbling' (not boiling or else you will evaporate much of your KNO3).
Once heated it is removed from the heat source and put in 10 parts alcohol (I use 91% isopryl) and allowed to stand for 5
minutes. (During this time the KNO3 will crystallize around the grains of charcoal and sulfur and settle at the bottom.. so
sometimes I let it go a few minutes longer than 5). This mix is then poured through a cloth (preferably something with VERY
small pores or else you will lose a lot of your mix that hasn't been able to crystallize large enough to be filtered out) and then
rubbed through screen wire (which can take a lot of work, so plan on finding a rock or something with a hard, smooth surface
because your hands will tire out far to easily to do it without something to hold). Let the wet granules sit in the direct sun until
dry or under the radiator of a vehicle (I have also found that if you are making at night and sunlight is not available, setting it
on a paper towel ON TOP of a refrigerator--assuming that my refrigerator isn't the only on that is warm on top--will also be
acceptable). The granules need to be completely dried within an hour, any longer and the performance will suffer. (This is
actually not easy to accomplish.. I don't think I have ever had mine completely dry in an hour since I have been making it,
but the closer you get, the better the product... and although it may feel dry to the touch doesn't necessarily mean the grains
are completely dried all the way through.. the best way to tell is when the smell of the alcohol is pretty much gone).
--What I have discovered from my work on improvised BP....
For one, use soft wood (willow tends to work best), this is what this procedure is for and using hardwood will make it burn very
noticeable slower and sometimes cannot even be ignited with a naked flame because hardwood is much more dense, and
more KNO3 will be required. The only time you use hardwood is in pyrotechnical displays when you use GRANULES of charcoal
to produce orange sparks or when using to heat an object very rapidly (I have found this useful when sticking a capped-up
pipe filled with softwood BP or flash in a small pile of the hardwood BP.. the pipe will heat up very hot and the composition
inside will ignite) or when using with a bit of Al to ignite compositions such as thermite because the hardwood produces a much
greater amount of heat.
Anyways, from then on its trial and error. Ignite a small amount of your mix and if it burns just right then great (because you
have managed something that I have only managed to do a very few times).
But...
------------
* if it burns too slow but does not produce a noticeable (by smell) amount of SO2, then stick all the granules in a coffee
grinder and add some KNO3 and blend it in.
*if it burns fast but leaves too much WHITE residue, then you have too much KNO3. Make a small mix of 7:1 charcoal:sulfur
and grind it with your granules.
*if it burns fast but leaves a yellowish residue, then you have too much KNO3 and sulfur. Add some charcoal to the granules
and pulverize.
*if it burns slow and SO2 is evident, make a mix of 7:1 KNO3:charcoal and grind with the granules.
(Note: these are approximate editions.. I usually can tell what needs to be added and therefore I don't measure anything out-
-also due to the fact that I have very little patience--)
------------
Then ignite a bit of this (although it will be all pulverized) and if it burns well then stick the mix in a bowl and add enough
alcohol to make it into a thick paste and pour out thinly over a sheet of newspaper then let it dry in the sun until it hardens.
Then stick chunks of it on the screen wire and start rubbing it through as before with a rock until all of it is in granules.
(Sometimes I don't do this last step and use the pulverized form of the BP although there will be much less surface area to
burn and it will require much more confinement to have equal results).
---------------And if you are very impatient like myself and just want to make a batch of BP just whenever...
I pour in some pulverized charcoal in the coffee grinder until it is about full. Then add a few tablespoons of sulfur. To this
add KNO3 until it is almost full (slightly below the top). Then grind away occasionally shaking the entire mixer to make sure
that it is all mixed. When the mix is completely one color, pour out and test. If not as good as possible, then use the
methods that I described earlier for mixing it, but just leave out the last part of adding alcohol and making it into granules.
What you will have is a powdered form of BP which only took a couple minutes to make and is still quite effective although as
stated earlier, it will require a much stronger container for confinement to have equal results to that of granulated BP.
Also if you used the IM handbook method, then your final BP will be relatively waterproof, unlike if you made it without alcolhol
in which it would be quite hygroscopic and it would clump together easily, requireing that you repulverize it before use.
Personally I use my homemade BP to make 'metal crackers' as I call them which the procedure I described earlier about filling
a pipe with the BP and sticking it in a pile of hardwood BP; also I use it very extensively in mortar shots and my pyrotechnical
uses (although the commercial grade BP is far better). I have also used my improvised BP as solid grain rocket fuel by
dampening it slightly with alcohol and then putting it in the casing. When dry a hole is drilled and primed with either a sugar/
KNO3 mix or commercial BP or pyrodex.
A_W March 12th, 2002, 02:36 PM

Thank you for some very good instructions!
[ August 30, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: A_W ]
CyclonitePyro March 12th, 2002, 06:04 PM

Not to bust on your methods but from what I heard the ball milling method produces black powder of a higher quality.
I'm interested in this method since I hae a ball mill. But it seems like the CIA method would be better if the KNO3 coated the
charcoal and sulfer. Anyone make ball milled black powder?
<a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/bp_making_EN.html" target="_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/

bp_making_EN.html</a> I read his page on making it, anyone have any comments to improve his methods when ball milling?

There's not a lot to ball-milling. You just weigh out the component chemicals, throw them in the jar along with the media, set
the mill running and go find something else to do for the rest of the day (depending on the efficiency of your mill and load).
One thing I would suggest when first using a mill is to stop it periodically and test the burn rate of a sample of the contents.
After a certain time you start getting diminishing returns and it becomes more worthwhile to stick another match in the mill
rather than try and squeeze the last few drops of performance out of an existing batch. I used to let my small mill run for 7-
8hrs when doing BP.
The great thing about ball mills is the minimal effort and cost compared to other methods such as the CIA method.
NoltaiR March 13th, 2002, 12:32 AM

Although ball milling tends to be the traditional method to the long-lived pyros of our time, I have never taken the time to
make one simply because although it requires no physical effort, it is not made for someone like me who expects to have
made it and have used it all within a couple hours.
Also, as stated before, the CIA method (for those of you who may not know, this is another name for the method of taking
advantage of KNO3's ability to dissolve in water and then recrystallize around the other nonsoluble materials) provides for a
much quicker way--takes work though--and when using alcohol, the BP tends to lose its hygroscopic properties which is VERY
useful in the event that I have to do something else and cannot use the BP right away.
[ March 12, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

And one more thing about the not using charcoal briquettes: this is very true, however I did not always know that it was
(although I should have taken a clue from the first time that it wouldn't ignite) and after having dissappointing results with it, I
made a 'BP substitute' (as I called it) made of pulverized chlorine granules, pulverized briquets, and sulfur using the ratio of
75:15:10 by volume (back before I knew better).
Even this would not ignite, but when I put a small charge of pyrodex on it and ignited it, the mix burned very energetically
although only a small amount is needed due to the fact that the amount of fuel in general burns quite slow. I even put it to
use in shooting off a few mortar shots :D
The only problem I ever had with this stuff happened last july (the last time I made this mix) when I discovered that if you
attempt to store this mix it will spontaneously ignite and if I had not had it locked up in a stainless steel tool box I would have
burnt down my garage.
I also found that adding a small amount of gasoline (just enough to dampen it) could sufficiently replace using sulfur,
however it was a bitch to ignite because the gas fumes tended to burn above the actual mix, making it hard to ignite at all.
Also I found that this mix as well self-ignites after about 20 minutes or so.. however I had this mix in a metal bowl about a
meter from my dad's van and I melted the bumper (thankfully that is all).
The reaction was quite impressive, first I noticed that a thick smoke was pouring out of it (well actually it was most likely
chlorine gas) for about 3 minutes which I waited out expecting that it was simply going to stop. Well instead the gas hung low
over the ground and once the mix had self-ignited, everywhere the gas had gone, it ignited as well in a huge flash of light.
Once the flash was over and it was just the bowl that was burning like rocket fuel, I managed to throw a rock at it and knock it
off the garage cement, although this resulted in the mix pouring out onto the yard. After all was done I had a scorched
driveway and about 2 hours of cleanup time...
Anyways just a little story I thought I would share..
[ March 12, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
vonK March 13th, 2002, 12:54 AM

I make my black powder using a ball mill.
I decided on this method because when I started I could only get NaNO3 which is incredibly hygroscopic and I don't the CIA
method would work ( I could be wrong).
I built my mill from an old sowing machine. I switched the originally motor with one from an Expel-air unit and epoxied the lid
of an old drano container (my milling jar) on to the wheel that lets you turn the machine manually.
This worked like a dream for many, many hours but the motor burnt out recently.
I just chuck the right amount of chems in and let it run untill the powder burns fast enough for me.
It takes around 10 hours to get nice burst qualitly powder.

Well actually I believe I may have just learned something new.. according to the webpage, the isopryl needs to be ice cold
before using.. I may have to try this, the strange thing is that this step seems so obvious to get better precipitation although I
have found no other information source that stated to do so.
This would also probably help save as much precipitate (another disadvantage of the CIA method is that at least 25% of the
original chemicals are discarded at the end because they did not recrystallize well enough).

the longer it takes for the temperature to drop the bigger the crystals which form will be. therefore if the BP and water is added
to very cold alcohol the crystals which form will be minute.
i believe ballmilling is the way to the finest powder. or maybe the CIA method followed by ballmilling would acheive the best
results....
HOOPS123 March 20th, 2002, 11:13 PM

Noltair, is putting all of the chemicals into the coffee grinder at one time really safe? I have heard that it isn't. Have you had
any bad expieriences?
NoltaiR March 21st, 2002, 12:49 AM

I have also heard that mixing Al and KNO3 in a coffee grinder can be dangerous.. but I have never had any problem with it
and I have been making all sorts of Al flash compositions and BP at least once a week for the past year or so and I have
always used a coffee grinder.. and I have only had to replace the grinder once because I was grinding up chunks of charcoal
for some hardwood BP to be used to heat up and bend some steel conduit and one of the chunks that I picked up happened
to be a rock! Thank God that didn't make a spark... but it chipped my blade up bad so I couldn't grind near as well.
And no, I have never had it spontaneously ignite in my grinder.
vulture March 21st, 2002, 03:58 PM

I was freakin' crazy one day and i put 50g (yes fifty) of H3 into the coffeegrinder. Ran it for 2 minutes and had airfloat H3 :D
I must have been very lucky because i repeated this 2 times.... :cool: :p
BP in a coffeegrinder is no problem, but don't do it with flash.
I get good quality BP by the following steps:

1. Add the KNO3 and the charcoal together and mix thoroughly
2. then add the sulfur
3.put the stuff in the coffeegrinder
4. Wet with aceton. isopropyl or water until you got a high viscosity paste
5. Let dry (you'll notice there are alot of tiny reflective spots in it because of the recrystallized KNO3)
6. crush the chunks and put the stuff back into the coffeegrinder
7. Wait 5 min before opening the grinder, otherwise you risk a powerful FAE!
For some strange reason my BP is of worse quality if I first mix the S with the KNO3 and then add the charcoal... :confused:
Anthony March 21st, 2002, 06:56 PM

Possibly because the S binds with the KNO3 crystals, making them less likely to enter the pores of the C. Ideally, the KNO3
enters or recyrstalises in the pores of the C and is bound in place by a small amount of S. That's the theory anyway.
A_W March 22nd, 2002, 04:38 PM

I did a quick scearch, and did not find anything matching this. I also did not want to start a new topic for this, so I posted it
here.
Has anyone heard of those charcoal-sticks used to draw pictures with? I recently "borrowed" some from school, and I`m
wondering if they can be used for blackpowder-manufacture. (are they made of soft, or hard wood?)
[ March 22, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: A_W ]
kingspaz March 22nd, 2002, 05:04 PM

charcoal sticks? they are not worth stealing! grpahite sticks however are, they make great electrodes since they are nice and
fat compared to pencil graphite.
to make charcoal, chop up some softwood into pieces about 1-2cm long and about 0.5cm wide (small pieces basically!).
pack this into a tin so there is as little air space inside as possible. put the lid on. and put a hole in the lid no more than
0.5cm in diameter. next put the tin on a fire with the hole facing upwards. the tin will smoke for a while. when it stops or it
thins considerably, take it off the fire and leave to cool. when you open you will have charcoal left. if the smoke that comes
out the tin catches fire it doens;t matter, just leave it. the smoke is carbon monoxide so don;t breath it!
Anthony March 22nd, 2002, 07:23 PM

I'm guessing that artistic charcoal sticks are going to be way too dense (probably pressed during manufacture), homemade
charcoal sticks (out of the can, off of the fire as Kingspaz describes) are very low density and break very easily.
YTS March 22nd, 2002, 07:40 PM

Artistic willow charcoal doesnt work its crap it is to dense & is hard to grind ive tried it afew times . Also costs a fortune for a few
sticks
Pu239 Stuchtiger March 23rd, 2002, 02:16 AM

I hope noone interprets this as being "arrogant", I am just trying to help. :)
Grinding all of the ingredients of black powder in a coffee grinder is a death wish. Of course the only opinion here from people
who do that is going to be "it's safe, I've never had an accident" because those who have had an accident aren't going to be
around anymore. All it takes is *one* spark, and *BOOM!!!*... dismemberment. Grind the ingredients seperately, and spend
twenty minutes mixing them by hand in a glass bowl with a spoon (do not use a metal bowl AND spoon, can cause sparks).
Clean out the coffee grinder after you grind an ingredient in it. If you want to be more precautious (recommended), then buy
a seperate coffee grinder for reducers / oxidizers (as in, grind only KNO3 in one coffee grinder, grind only sulfur and carbon in
another coffee grinder). Powders slowly accumulate inside of coffee grinders; if it is a mix of a fuel and an oxidizer, it could
cause an explosion (the interior of the coffee grinder can get very hot).
vulture March 23rd, 2002, 06:23 AM

First of all, blackpowder isn't going to ignite, let alone explode from a simple friction spark. Keep in mind that a friction spark
is not hot burning material like a spark from a burning composition is.
Second, for an explosion to occur in the coffeegrinder, there must be pressure build up which is impossible im my case
because there are venting holes in it and it has a plastic lid which would immediatly melt in case of ignition.
Besides, 40g of BP aren't gonna make an impressive boom and if it explodes it's with a very low velocity.
It also depends on the blade of the coffeegrinder, if it has sharp pointy blades it will cause more friction than just a simple
metal rod like mine has. Also, if you're grinding compositions, let it run for max. 1min, shake it, grind again and check
temperature.
Anthony March 23rd, 2002, 01:48 PM

The sparks you get from grinding or striking metals together are burning particles of the metal.
Pu239 Stuchtiger March 23rd, 2002, 02:45 PM

I do not know what kind of coffee grinder you are using, but the ones around here require you to have your hand ontop of the
coffee grinder when it is running. With mine, ignition of the black powder would result in third degree burns on my hand and
arm, if an explosion did not occur (warm / hot black powder in *my* coffee grinder would explode if ignited). The thing that
matters the most is power of the explosion, not detonation velocity. For example, ethyl nitrate is very brissant, but it is not
powerful. 40g of exploding black powder would have no trouble taking my hand off. Especially when there are bits of plastic
shrapnel present to assist... (I have a light plastic cover for my coffee grinder also, but it isn't going to be vaporized in an
explosion).
Pretend the chance of your black powder igniting when you're grinding it in the coffee grinder is 0.5% (I think it is higher than
that, but I'll shoot low so that noone can complain that I exaggerated the risk). What would be the chances that you will have
had an accident after grinding black powder in a blender 1000 times? According to my calculations, ~99.335%. 100 times?
~39.423%. 200 times? ~63.304%. 300 times? ~77.771%. 400 times? ~86.534%. And so on... it isn't the single act that is so
dangerous, it is the habit.
kingspaz March 23rd, 2002, 05:37 PM

well the way i see it is, if people want to risk being maimed or whatever then thats their choice. but please people, who have
not had accidents grinding oxidisers and reducers together, don;t say its safe. it isn't. it increases the risks substantially.
newbies who don't know any better could be maimed by this.
vulture i have proven to myslef that BP will ignite from a friction spark. i have sparked a run out lighter over pea sized amount
of BP before. it lit first time - energy is energy.
YTS March 23rd, 2002, 05:41 PM

I personally wouldnt grind all the ingredients in a coffee grinder. The coffee grinder ive used actaully grinds between wheels
rather than use blade as some do but each to his own
00Buckshot March 23rd, 2002, 06:34 PM

I use the coffee grinder method to make my BP. I just wanted to add that I make my BP by first grinding to chems seperate.
Then you could mix them by hand and get pretty fast powder. Or you could take a (slight) risk mixing them together in the
grinder to get a faster powder.
Remember the post that said BP burns better if the sulfur is added after the KNO3 and C have been mixed.
Well after the chems are ground seperate, why not then grind the KNO3 and the C together and then mix in the S by hand.
Thats what I do, because I figure that a KNO3/C mix would be MUCH less explosive compared to BP with the S. Is that right?
Also I open up my grinder and clean out the powders on the motor and stuff before each use.
HOOPS123 March 23rd, 2002, 11:56 PM

Coffee grinders can be a pain to clean out. Even after you clean it out water always seems to be stuck way down in the cracks.
Generally, do you people think its safer to grind you chemicals together in a coffee grinder or ball mill?

Staying with the coffee grinder's, is it just mine or is there always a bit of wetness in the grinder after you've dryed it? :mad:
HOOPS123 March 24th, 2002, 05:58 PM

yeah, it happens to mine to. What I do is open the top and get a pen to press the button down. It spins all the water out.

Just depends how you do it.. I suppose you guys like to wetten your mix first and then let the clump dry and then grind it.
What I do is grind it then take the powder and mix it with 91% isopryl and then rub it through a wire screen.. therefore there is
never any wetness actually in the blender.
00Buckshot March 24th, 2002, 07:54 PM

I don't wet my grinder ever. I don't wash it with water.
But the thing about adding the alcohol after and pushing it through a screen, I found that to slow my powder. I just grind the
stuff and thats it. It burns great.

I have never known rubbing it through a screen ('corning it') to have a negative affect on it (I have always known it to add to
the burn rate quite effectively due to the added surface area), but I guess to each his own...
BoB- March 25th, 2002, 03:38 AM

Dude, you dont have to make a ballmill, just pick up a rocktumbler, then swing by a gunstore and pick up some muzzle-
loader ammo to use as media. The thin plastic on the tumbler is actually really strong, I've used mine for about 3 years now
and there are only a few sctratches here and there.
Damn guys, dont use the button on the coffee grinders!! Get out the extension cord, and take the plug with you, then duct
tape the button down on the lid, then plug the coffee grinder into the extension cord then plug the extension cord into the wall
for the grinding cycle while you are far away and behind something big.
Safety first!
Pyroboy April 10th, 2002, 09:27 AM

Bob do you know of anywhere on the net that sells rocktumblers?
This wouldn't be what I'm looking for would it? lol
<a href="http://www.totallyfuntoys.com/cgi-bin/toys/602NS?JisTLCjR;;19" target="_blank">http://www.totallyfuntoys.com/cgi-

bin/toys/602NS?JisTLCjR;;19</a>
[ April 10, 2002, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Pyroboy ]
HOOPS123 April 10th, 2002, 06:44 PM

Yeah, thats it. Kinda small though... may want to try to find a bigger one.
nbk2000 April 10th, 2002, 11:31 PM

You ALWAYS grind your ingredients seperately.
Then, once the components are finely powdered, you mix them together by tumbling or seiving. NO friction or tumbling media!
Just simple mixing.
Once it's wetted down, then you can use grinding media, but don't let it dry out or else BOOM! As often happens at
professional BP plants.
Pyroboy April 11th, 2002, 12:19 PM

But what I don't understand about that NBK2000, is if the mixture is dry, and your media doesn't create sparks how do you get
an explosion? Just from heat build up from the friction?

Static might be the culprit, especially if your mill is driven by a belt.
I must admit that I've always milled BP dry. I didn't grind and sieve the chemicals together before hand either, although
thinking about it, it would probably significantly reduce the milling time required to get a fast powder.
nbk2000 April 11th, 2002, 01:51 PM

Sulfur can become highly charged with static electricity. You may notice this sometimes with sulfur powder flying around in a jar
by itself.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Potassium & Am m o n i u m N i t r a m i d e
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View Full Version : Potassium & Ammonium Nitramide
Alchemist July 22nd, 2002, 10:57 PM

Hello all,
The other night I dream e d I m a d e P o t a s s i u m D i n i t r a m ide (KDN) and Amm onium Dinitram ide at home and it worked. Here a re
the details of m y dream .
Precursors are:
7 0 . 3 5 g r a m s o f S u l f a m ic Acid, this can be boug ht at mo st hardware store s as grout and tile cleaner.
53 gram s o f P o t a s s i u m Hydroxide, I got m ine at a industrial cleaning supply house. I do NOT know if Sodium Hydroxide will
work as yet!
264 ML of 95% Ethanol, m ine was hom e m a d e .
45 ML of 90-95% Nitric acid, again hom e m a d e .
16 ML of 98% Sulfuric Acid, hardware store drain cleaner.
Approx. 10 ML of Acetone from the hardware store.
100 ML of 99% Isopropyl Alcohol.
DRY ICE as needed!
Step 1:Potassium salt of Sulfamic Acid
Procedure:
P r e p a r e a s u s p e n s i o n b y a d d i n g 7 0 . 3 5 g r a m s o f s u l f a m ic acid in to 50 m illiliters of water. Prepare a second mixture by

d i s s o l v i n g 4 4 g r a m s o f p o t a s s i u m hydroxide into 50 m illiliters of water. T h e r e a f t e r , a d d t h e p o t a s s i u m h y d r o x i d e s o lution to
the sulfam ic acid suspension with rapid stirring. After wh ich, pour the entire mixture into 214 milliliters of 95% ethanol while
stirring the ethanol. After which, filter-off the precipitated potassium salt of sulfam ic acid, wash with 50 m illiliters of 95%
e t h a n o l , s e v e r a l t i m e s u s i n g t h e s a m e washing portion, and then vacum or air-dry the pro duct. After the product has been
sufficiently dried, grin d it up into a fine powder for use in step 2.
S t e p 2 : P r e p a r a t i o n o f p o t a s s i u m dinitram ide
Place 45 m illiliters of 90% nitric acid into a beaker, and then add 16 m illiliters of 98% sulfuric acid. Thereafter, cool the acid
m ixture to -30 C elsius by m ean of a dry ice/acetone bath.
T h e n , c a r e f u l l y , a n d g r a d u a l l y a d d 1 7 g r a m s o f t h e p o t a s s i u m salt of sulfamic acid (prepared in step I), in 500-m illigram
portions, to the nitrating acid m ixture over a period of about 20 minutes. During the addition, rapidly stir the nitrating acid
m ixture and maintain its tem perature at -30 Celsius. After the a ddition(20 m inutes), im m edially pour the entire reaction
m ixture into a beaker filled with 150 grams of crushed ice and 150 m illilitcrs of water. Imm ediatly thereafte r, place this ice
water mixture into a dry ice/acetone bath, and then rapidly add 9 gram s of a cold p o t a s s i u m hydroxide solution prepared by
d i s s o l v i n g 9 g r a m s o f p o t a s s i u m hydroxide into 20 m illiliters of ice-cold watcr. During the potassium hydrox ide addition, rapidly
stir the reaction m ixture while keeping its temp erature below 0 Celsius. Note. the solution should tum a greenish-yellow color.
After the addition of the potassium hydroxide, place the reaction m ixture into rotary evaporator, and evaporate-off the water
under vacuum until dry solid rem ains. If rotary evaporator is unavailable, place reaction m ixture into a shallow pan, and then
blow air over the surface until dry solid remains. When dry solid rem ains, recover the dry solid, and then mix with 10 milliliters
o f a c e t o n e , a n d t h e n a d d 1 0 0 m illiliters of isopropyl alcohol. Then stir the mixture rapidly for several minutes. After which,
place the m ixture into a clean rotary evaporator, and evaporate-off the acetone, and some of the isopropyl alcohol under
vacuum. If a rotary evaporator is unavailable, place the m ixture into a distillation apparatus, and carefully distill-off the
acetone and some of the isop ropyl alcohol. Once the acetone has been removed, stop the evaporation, and then cool the
m ixture to room tem perature. W hen the acetone is rem oved, the KDN will
precipitate. Thereafte r, filter-off the precipitated KDN, and then vacuum dry or air-dry the product. The result will be about
10.7 grams of relatively pure KDN.
T o m a k e A m monium Dinitram ide mix a solution of KDN in water, with a solution of Amm onium Sulfate in water. Stir for several
m inuites then addl Isopropyl Alcohol and continue to stir for several more minutes ! Then filter off the Pota s s i u m S u l f a t e a n d
let the Amm onium Dinitam ide air dry. Then redisollve in Isopropyl again and air dry a secound tim e!
*** If you try this please give m e your feed back on how it work ed for you.
*** MEGA, this would be a good one for your sight!
P.S., this is alm ost a exact copy of U.S. pat. # 5,976,483. I used the same quanities as they did. I wanted it to be like there's
for my first test. One change was to use Acetone in the freezing bath. Th e only point here though is to get the tem p. to -30
degree's C.
T h e i m portant factors seem to be the temp's and VERY good stirring! A good m echanical stirer would be a benifit here!
See the pat. for even m ore details.
This stuff is great and I think better th a n o r a s g o o d a s C h l o r a t e a n d P e r c h l o r a t e !
More later!!!
<sm all>[ July 23, 2002, 03:31 PM: Me ssage edited by: Alchem ist ]
Mr Cool July 23rd, 20 02, 09:1 9 AM

Very interesting!! Nice to get some of the m ore unusual synths tried & tested, well done!
I didn't realise it was quite that sim ple, dry ice is freely available to m e , I h a v e i s o p r o p a n o l a n d I t h i n k I ' v e s e e n s u l p h a m ic
acid. I'll have to go shopping and see if I can find any...
W hat've you been doing with it so far?
P.S. - you sh ould try ADN/NM!!
<sm all>[ July 23, 2002, 08:20 AM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M r C o o l ] < / s m all>
Alchemist July 23rd, 20 02, 11:0 0 AM

Hello all,
Mr. Cool I just found the Pat. last frida y and tried it last Sunday (the 21first). Did NOT know if it wo uld even work when I first
started. If ya look at the Pat. it also discribes other m ethods with varing percentages of H2SO 4/HNO3. So far I have just tried
KDN + Sugar, KDN + Sulfur, Some filed Al, and they all burnt like Chlorate. More tests to b e d o n e .
<sm all>[ July 23, 2002, 10:01 AM: Me ssage edited by: Alchem ist ]
Mr Cool July 30th, 20 02, 08:0 3 PM

OK, I've found a lime scale remover containing sulphamic acid, a nd I have purified it of the citric acid and various other shit. I
n e e d t o g e t s o m e m ore isopropanol, then I can try m aking dinitram ides...
If all goes to plan with the din itram ides, I will a lso be trying out an interesting com p o u n d : a m inotetrazole dinitramide! I
haven't heard of this, but I know am inotetrazole can form salts, so why not a dinitramide?
Am inotetrazole can be form e d b y d i a z o t i s i n g a m i n o g u a n i d i n e ( c y a n a m ide + hydrazine or reduction of nitroguanidine), see U S
p a t e n t n u m b er 5,424,449.
I think it sho u l d m a k e q u i t e a nice explosive.
CH4N5N(NO2 )2 --> CO 2 + 2H2O + 4N2.
Perfect OB to CO 2 and H2O, lots of nitrogen, and I think quite e nergetic. I'll have to work out DeltaH for the detona tion som e
tim e.
I'll post results when I have som e...
T h a t r e m i n d s m e, I h ave resu lts from an NTO synth to share with you. I'll try and rem e m ber to do that tom orrow...
<sm all>[ August 01, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]</sm all>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > My oxi-ap
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View Full Version : My oxi-ap
Kdogg July 23rd, 20 02, 11:4 4 PM

I v e r e a d o n h e r e o f o xi-clean having a h i g h h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e c o n t e n t , s o m e h a v i n g a l i m ited quantity of high percentage
peroxide, tried ap with it. I m i x e d s o m e in with water, & went through standard procedure using the oxi-clean/water as
p e r o x i d e . W hen I added my acid (which I had chilled) drop by drop it fizzed. No m atter ho w little I put in. Even before adding
acid it it sounded carbonated like a pop. Any id ea what was going on there? acid/base mixture reaction type thing? Anyways I
m ade it went to work, just got home at nine, & checked it. The b o t t o m h a d u n d i s s o l v e d o x i - c l e a n : ( , b u t t h e t o p h a d a b o u t a
one inch layer of another substance which lookes like ap. Have I really m ade ap with oxi-clean? In the jar it is kinda
transparent looking.
grimR July 24th, 20 02, 12:3 5 AM

h a v e y o u t r y e d i g n i t i n g a s m a l l a m o u n t? I am very curious as to if it worked for I have a great dea l of oxyclean and only 3%
H202
algebra July 24th, 20 02, 01:1 1 AM

I looked at the MSDS for oxiclean and it says that "when mixed with water Oxiclean forms oxygen,hydrogen peroxid e a n d s o d a
ash"
T h e o x i c l e a n M S D S s a y s t h e p roduct contains Sodium percarbonate 50-70%

a n d S o d i u m carbonate 30-50%.
So I think It is possible that it could have worked.
Kdogg July 24th, 20 02, 02:4 1 AM

Its still form i n g , b u t I t o o k s o m e out & tried to clean it, the wate r just dissolved it.
da man July 24th, 20 02, 04:1 0 AM

Yes, oxi-clea n c o n t a i n s s o d i u m p e r c a r b o n a t e , a n d s o d i u m c a r b o n a t e . A n d t h e s o d i u m percarbonate reacts with wate r to form
h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e , a nd sodiu m c a r b o n a t e , s o y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a l o t o f s o d i u m carbonate in your hydrogen peroxide, this
is why it fizzed as you added the acid. So you will have to add your aceto ne/oxi-clean m ix, and then slowly add acid untill it
stop s fizzing, then add the proper am ount to catylise th e reactio n.
It appears it has worked, but you would probab ly get a better yield, if you neautralise the carbonate, and then add m ore acid.
kingspaz July 24th, 20 02, 07:3 4 AM

he won't get any yield if he doesn't neutralise the carbonate. the way i would do it is m ix up the oxi clean in som e water then
add acid until it stops fizzing then add the acetone and stir it in then add som e m ore acid to catylise the re action. the reason
he won't get any yield unless he neutralise it with acid first is because all the catalyst is used up quickly rea cting with the
carbonate so it doesn't get chance to be used to catalyse the AP reaction . i think that m a d e s e n s e . . . .
andreas July 24th, 20 02, 09:4 5 AM

Has anyone ever noticed Ap forming larger cristals after it had dryed m ine was a fine powder becouse I dissolved it in acetone
a n d a d d e d i t t o a l a r g e a m ount of water. Whell it's dry now and standing like 3 days and it's form ing larger crystalls about as
big as tablesugar. does anybody have an idea what is going on
xtreme July 24th, 20 02, 05:1 9 PM

Recrysalisation...I think
Are they in open air or in a closed....bottle/container ?
Larg er crystals are m ore sensitive !! becarefull....neighb our <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
Kekule July 24th, 20 02, 06:2 9 PM

Sodiumperca rbonate is som e sort of com plex(not a real com plex) wich would described with X Na2CO3 . Y H202. It is sim ilar to
a h y d r a t e l i k e C o p p e r s u l f a t e - p e n t a h y d rate ( CUSO4 . 5 H20 )with the difference that the H20 m ole cules are replaced with H202
m olecules. Therefore, you wouldn't have to react Sodiumpercarbonate with H20 to get Hyd r o g e n P e r o x i d e . I w o u l d s u p p o s e
that it is possible to obtain a H202-Acetone Solution or a Dihydroperoxypropane-Acetone solution (depending on how fast
acetone an H202 react to form Dihydroperoxypropane) by sim p l y a d d i n g s o d i u m p e r c a r b o n a t e t o a c e t o n e a n d s u b s e qunt
r e m o v i n g t h e i n s o l u b l e N a 2 C O 3. It would be possible to obtain a high concentrated solution of H202 in Acetone with out having
30% H202.
Kdogg July 24th, 20 02, 08:2 6 PM

I have about 1/3 of a jar of yield of so mthing non-explosive. I believe it is just recrystalized oxi-clean taking up m ore volum e
cause the crystals are larger, as it dissolves in water.
Edit: I just m ade a normal batch with 3%, I will get back to you on the re sults. Along with results on anothe r oxi-clean batch
s o o n t o b e m ade with the help from you guys. As soon as a friend brings over som e m o r e o x i c l e a n h e t o o k h o m e .
<sm all>[ July 25, 2002, 03:09 PM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : K d o g g ] < / s m all>
andreas July 25th, 20 02, 04:5 1 AM

whell it's in the open so there are no crystalls recrystalising in the lid
da man July 25th, 20 02, 05:4 6 AM

Kdogg, those crystals are probably sodium chlo ride (HCl + NaCO 3), possibly crystalised due to the addition of acetone (im not
sure if sodium chlorid e or not?), or just because there was little water, an d the m ixture was very cold. It could possibly also be
s o d i u m p e r c a r b o n a t e , a n d s o d i u m carbonate.
Y o u c o u l d u s e K i n g s p a z ' s i d e a , e x c e p t a n y e x c e s s H C l , a d d e d b e f o r e t h e addition of the acetone to neutralize the carbonate,
will catalyse the reaction as soon as the acetone is added causing heat, and possibly causing the dim er to form , but if you p re-
cool the acetone, and oxi-clean solution there shouldn't be a problem . So you could add the HCl to the solution of
percarbonate in water until it stops fizzing, then chill the solution, to precipitate any sodium chloride/carbon ate/percarbonate ,
filter to rem ove these, and then test the solution to see if it is hydrogen peroxide. If you add lead to it (probably m any other
m etals too) it will start fizzing. There a re probably bette r test others can recomm e n d t h o u g h . T h e n if it works you could repeat
t h e p r o c e d u r e , e x c e p t a d d a c e t o n e a n d H C l i n s t e a d o f l e a d 

i'd just like to point out that da m a n s a i d i t b e f o r e m e a l s o .
marky July 27th, 20 02, 05:2 7 AM

My AP was as fine as iceing sugar and dryed really fast it was m y first batch today and i am very happy...
Thankyou to everyone.
hope you all get good results.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Huge AP Crystals
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View Full Version : Huge AP Crystals
Energy84 August 7th, 2002, 04:54 PM

I hate posting new topics, but jesus christ, I almost shit myself this afternoon! I was cleaning up my room and found a jar that
I had used for making some AP putty using DBSP. Well, it was this jar that I used to make the actual putty in and when I was
done, I just scraped everything out then threw in some acetone to keep the leftovers nice and damp. There wasn't much left in
there, about mabye 2 grams of my ap/dbsp putty which was caked to the sides.
Anyways, when I opened up the jar, I almost dropped the damn thing in amazement when I saw what was inside (good thing I
didn't drop it). There were some HUGE crystals formed in there. They were about an inch long! Great big suckers. I took a few
pics with my shitty little webcam to try and show you guys, but the resolution just isn't good enough. These things look like
those crystals you can make in little kid chem kits...
<img src="http://www.chr1s.b0x.com/AP/BIG-crystals.gif" alt=" - " />
This is a view of the inside of the jar. (It is a half pint jar) Those big white spots are the crystals. Bad res, I know.
<img src="http://www.chr1s.b0x.com/AP/BIG-crystals1.gif" alt=" - " />

Here's another pic of the inside, this time you can see the crystals a little better in the center of the jar. Lots of glare :mad:

Another shot of them...

This is the jar. I filled it full of acetone and put the lid back on until I get the chance to go and dispose of it.
So what do you think? Has anybody else ever had big crystals like this form? This was only the third time I've made AP and I
was amazed at how much better 35% H2O2 works compared to 3% :D
Scary thought. Is there any way to preserve this thing? I was thinking of a just keeping it in a glass jar and filling it full of
acetone with no airpockets. It would probably be too dangerous though. If it were to crack, that would be the end. <img
MrSamosa August 7th, 2002, 06:38 PM

Hmm...if it were me, I wouldn't store AP or AP puddy more than a few days. I tend to be overly-paranoid with things I make.
Then again, I have NO experience in making AP; just go by what everyone else says about it :D . I remember another topic
where someone described a similar situation; although his huge crystals were a result of the actual synthesis, not from
storage. Now, what I recommend to you: Take some fireplace tongs, use them to take that jar into your back yard, and throw
rocks at it :) .

this is one of the reasons there is great differences in sensitivity of AP. its also a reason as to why it has caused many
accidents. one big crstal in a sea of small ones isn't going to be noticed until it cracks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
also glass and fireplace tongs will be slippy so its likely to slip and smash. there isn't that much AP in there by the looks of it
so wrap it in a pair of old jeans (nice thick material) and take it to a cliff and drop it! so long as its not left round for some kid
to find.

I think I'm just gonna take it out back and plink away at it with a .22
The stuff must be fairly stable though because even though it's no more than a week old, it's been sitting on top of my stereo
speakers. 15" subs and I play 'em loud. Even with all that rattling, it hasn't gone off, so I'm somewhat comforted by that. I
really should however quit my habit of using my speakers as tables... :rolleyes:
ALENGOSVIG1 August 7th, 2002, 07:10 PM

Throw rocks at it? Yeah that would be fun. Then again i dont want a rock coming back at me like a bullet going through my
head :)
But seriously, I wouldnt even want to touch it. But since you already picked it up and screwed off the lid, you should just place
the jar ontop of a detonator.
You know the rest...
[ August 07, 2002, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
PYRO500 August 7th, 2002, 09:59 PM

I can't believe what some people do with their AP. I see it put in a jar, stored for long pieriods of time, having a screw on lid
on the top. and placed in an area where it could get physical shock!
I'd get rid of that jar the instant you can get it oustide as it's not getting any stabler and is possibly subject to tempeture
shock and other forms of shock as is. I don't think it's a very good idea to just throw rocks at it as that means your close
enough for human power to bring an object like a rock to the target. an explosive sure could bring a little glass shard to you.
Rat Bastard August 8th, 2002, 12:29 AM

ARG! broken images :mad:
FragmentedSanity August 8th, 2002, 12:49 AM
Lo there :)
Sounds like youve been lucky so far. The fact that it still had putty in the jar prolly saved your ass. Ive known the putty to be a
little lesss sensitive to shock. But with crystals of that size... :(
your damn lucky crystals hadnt formed around the lid - typing with stumps can present quite a challange (so Ive heard).
Disposal by detonation depends on your location - if your in suburbia you probably want to muffle the sound as much as
possible and contain the shrapnel, in which case you would be well served to dig a small hole in the ground put the jar in and
cover the dirt back over - the use whatever kind of remote det technique you want. But you did say your intent was to shoot it
with a .22 - so I have to assume you out of surbibia - and have a .22 wirth decent range/accuracy and a nice contained place
to shoot it and something solid to hide behind - youd still be well served to wrap it in some old jeans as was suggested - even
so Id personally rather do it below ground - below water is always fun and theres no real danger of shrapnel, but your device
dosent sound stable enough for the construction required (I wouldnt want to be near it any more than necessary).
FS
Energy84 August 8th, 2002, 03:36 AM

I know it was stupid. I just wasn't expecting anything to be left in there.
Yes I live in a nice quite rural area (it's Canada!) with lots of room to myself.
I feel like an idiot for neglecting what little AP I figured was left in the jar. But oh well, learn from your mistakes right? To bring
it out I think I'm gonna be wearing full welding dress. Thick leather apron, jacket, gloves and a welding helmet. Then a bucket
on the end of a hooked broomstick to haul it out with. 'Till then, I'm staying the fuck outta the way of that damn jar. <img
da man August 8th, 2002, 06:07 AM

I think it would be best to deal with it immediately, than leave it to get worste :rolleyes: Well, AP is soluable i acetone, which it
would stop it from exploding, so perhaps you could take it out side, and with an extended tongs pour some acetone into it,
this could be dangerous however. What is the jar made of, glass, plastic?
Either way, i would get the jar outdoors as soon as possible! You could even just leave it outside, where there is little danger.
Then decide what to do with it, but just get it outside!! You haven't been sleeping in your room with that in there have you!?!
Mick August 8th, 2002, 11:36 AM

he said he found it in his room cleaning up, so we can assume that yes, he has been sleeping in his room with it.
he put acetone in the jar already to make AP Putty, which is what the AP was for in the first place - so obviously the jar won't
melt if adds more acetone, this also means he knows that AP is soluble in acetone.
and he already said he was taking it outside.
wow, da man - 1 minute of reading, and everyone wouldn't have lost 30 seconds of there life reading your reply.
gotta love it.
energy84, i have had a similar thing happen with a batch of APP i made using ping pong balls(however my crystals were no
where near as big as yours). i got rid of them by putting some acetone in an empty "spray 'n wipe" bottle and then spraying
inside the jar till the AP was dissolved/wet, then i poured about an inch of acetone into the jar to dissolve it all. i figured if i
pour acetone straight into the jar it may detonate(dunno why, but i got the image of it happening in my head, so i thought it
best just to play it safe)
once i poured the acetone in, i flushed the acetone down the toilet.
short of flushing it, the other way is to strap a small detonator to it.
this is a weird happening with APP that i have noticed.

i have discovered with my APP that if i scrape my jar out then pour some more acetone in with the leftovers in the bottom.
after about a week or so i will start to get some pretty big crystals forming out of the putty.
however, if i dissolve some straight AP in acetone then leave it for a week the crystals reform to a normal size.
anyone have any theories as to why this is?
(not really important, but its got me intrigued.)

Presuming you didn't screw the lid back on the jar, take it outside fill the jar with water and pour it down the toilet or into a
small hole in the ground.

The last picture in the series is a picture of the jar (glass) completely flooded with acetone. The crystals however aren't being
dissolved... They're still the same size as before. Also I wasn't too worried about having any recrystalization happening in the
threads because it's a canning type jar, which means that there is a thick (5mm) rubber seal around the rim and I tightened it
really good. There was actually a slight "whoosh" sound when I opened it up as the air pressure equalized. This batch that I
made seems to be very stable considering that it is afterall AP. I'd estimate that there is at least a 5-10% sodium bicarb
content to neutralise all acid traces (HCl was used).
Mick, I have observed the same behavior where AP is dissolved in acetone then recrystalised a week later and still having the
same size crystals. The only difference that I've seen is that the crystals have a tendency to "cake" together. Not safe, but if
you take small bits (pea sized) and break them up seperately from the rest of the batch you still end up with a nice product.

I'm starting to wonder whether or not that was AP in there... I just went out back and shot the jar with my .22 and nothing
happened. The jar just shattered and fell to the ground. No explosion, no fire, no nothing. There were still big pieces of glass
laying around, the definiate smell of acetone, and some small black chunks of the leftover SP. I didn't see the crystals, but it
was all in some long grass and I didn't really want to prod around looking for them.
But anyways, it's all over, without incident.
Edit - I just found more evidence supporting the whole, "Not AP crystals" theory. I had another jar laying around basically the
same as the other except that there was no AP mixed with the DBSP. There were large crysals, same type as the others that I
thought were AP, formed in the bottom.
Conclusion, there must be something dissolving out of the DBSP that's being recrystalised. Any idea what it is? I doubt it's NG
or NC, but I have no experience with those explosives. Besides, they should have probably exploded when shot with the .22.
[ August 09, 2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Energy84 ]
Sam August 16th, 2002, 09:29 PM

This relates back to my year 10 science work. In volcanoes, the rocks in the middle of it will be very very large, as the magma
has cooled down very slowly, this gives it PLENTY of time to form into VERY large boulders, whereas the rocks on top of the
volcanoes have cooled very quickly, as they are exposed to air, these form in MUCH smaller rocks, because they have very
little time to form. f you make AP and you put LOTS of acid in it, it will form a lot faster, and in much smaller crystals. If you
put bugger all acid in it, it will form over a longer time and in much larger crystals. Try to get your AP putty to dry faster, this
may help.
X-Wulf January 12th, 2003, 05:55 AM

I've had a similar experience with straight AP. After leaving in a plastic container, with a loose lid (most definitely not air-tight),
for a couple weeks, I noticed quite extensive recrystalisation. What's strange is that no crystals formed on the sides of the
container, nor around the lid, but instead in amongst the normal AP powder, some even growing straight up.
These crystals are clear, gometrically shaped (though are still too small to determine exact shape), almost like large salt or
sugar crystals. They're between 2 and 5 mm in length and about 1 mm in height.
They don't appear to be more sensitive than the AP they formed from (detonate from roughly the same hammer impact, and
only on contact with open flame).
They appear to be increasing in number and size, but their sensitivity remains comparable to tricyclo AP. Unfortunately I do
not have a digital camera, but will try to get hold of one to take some photos as soon as possible.
I have also noticed that a small sample of HMTD also appears to be recrystallising, but at a far reduced rate.
These samples are currently in a cupboard on the far side of the house, but I'm going to move them into a steel box later
today. As the samples themselves are small (both under 5 g), the box should be able to contain any accidental detonation.
EDIT: spelling
[ January 12, 2003, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: X-Wulf ]
Zach January 13th, 2003, 01:03 AM

x wulf, do yourself a favor and get the fuck rid of that stuff. You cant use a digital camera when you're dead.
X-Wulf January 13th, 2003, 02:30 PM

Thanks for the concern Zach, but I'm well aware of the power of AP and hence the steel box and extremely small quantities.
A friend of mine provided a theory on how/why these crystals could be forming. It's not due to the vapourising and re-
crystallising of the AP (hence the lack of increased sensitivity - more about this later) but instead due to the inherent water-of-
crystallisation (w.o.c.) present in almost all crystalline structures (including AP I assume - correct me if I'm wrong on that).
Hence, when two or more small crystals are very close together, their w.o.c.'s combine to a very small degree, allowing even
smaller crystals to rearrange themselves, and thus extend the larger crystals. This continues in, what I'd assume to be, an
exponential fashion.
WRT the sensitivity - selecting one of the smaller crystals, I managed to remove it from the container and test it outside. I
placed it on a slab of concrete and struck it gently with my highly scientific impact testing device (aka - a standard hammer).
To my surprise, the was simply crushed back into a white powder. When I struck this powder again, harder this time, it indeed
detonated.
On another strange point, I have been unable to recrystallise AP out of an acetone solution. One reason may be Sam's idea
of the solvent being removed too quickly. Any thoughts on this?
EDIT: didn't sound right
[ January 13, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: X-Wulf ]
Keyser Soze January 13th, 2003, 04:05 PM

If you are going to keep it in a steel box, i'd at least leave the lid off or the door open. Even in small quantaties, enclosed AP
could probably send shards of steel at you if it went off.
Energy84 January 13th, 2003, 08:37 PM

Are you sure that you're actually getting larger crystals and not just 'clumps' of AP? I remember last time I made the stuff It
was really lumpy after drying. It was quite the nerve racking experience though breaking up the clumps :mad:
THe_rEaL_dEaL January 14th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Just a Quickie :cool:
Does AP still have explosive properties when disolved in acetone?
If so this could be usefull for relatively safer "longer"-term storage and eliminating friction sensitivity.
I wonder if it needs to be a saturated soulution to maintain explosive properties.
I assume, if my idea is correct, that a detonator would need to be used. No?

[ January 14, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: THe_rEaL_dEaL ]
IPN January 14th, 2003, 09:07 AM

No! Don t store AP, use it immediate ly.
Other wise you just risk killing your self!
X-Wulf January 15th, 2003, 03:00 PM

Energy84 - they're definitely single crystals and not clumps
Mic January 16th, 2003, 09:09 AM

X-Wulf:
Helvetica"> To my surprise, the was simply crushed back into a white powder. <hr /></blockquote>You are talking about your big crystal of AP right ?
If yes, I think that it is just clumps of AP and not single big crystal.. or maybe I am wrong ?
metafractal January 16th, 2003, 10:26 AM

Real Deal: You are correct, that acetone will not detonate wet. From personal experience, even if it is only slightly damp, it is
bareley self sustaining. Still so, while it has been said a hundred times I will say it again: With AP's ease of manafacture and
instability, it should never be stored under any circumstances. With that said though, it brings me to my experience earlier
today when I experimented with some AP made using 12% cream peroxide, available to me at higher concentration than the
regular chemist-bought one atm. It was, surprisingly, quite a success. I seriously doubted that it would work well and didnt
even bother neutralizing it or washing it well. I set it out to dry in the sun and came back about an hour later. It was slightly
damp, but felt more plasticized than anything wet, so I concluded that it was probably some oils rather than liquids that would
not dry off any time soon. I light it and it sputtered while I held a match to it. This proving, thought, that there was still some
amount of AP in there I left it to dry for another few hours while I went to cut some bamboo to make a staff. I came back and
it was completely dry. I did a quick flame test, and 'Schwish!', just like regular ap. I then proceeded to do a hammer test. This
was where it earned its merit. First, I hit it with a softly. No detonation. I worked myself up until I was belting it quite hard. It
had become a compressed, fine, powder by now, and still not detonated! I wasnt going to let this go in a hurry... I proceeded
to get my sledgehammer from the shed. I belted it with mighty fury, pulverizing the bricks that I was doing it on into dust. But
still, no AP det.! I held a match to it, and, sure engough, 'Pop!', it deflagrated giving a pleasing little fireball! As usual, a slight
bit of confinement gave a deflagration-to-detonation-transition. God knows what caused this, a multitude of things fly through
my head... Sorry for drifting a little away from the topic, but I thought it was of interest and worth bringing up.
As for X-Wulf's crystals turning into fine powder upon breaking without ignition, this is rather parculiar. If they are really single,
large, crystals, this does not seem to make sense. One of the defining properties of a crystal is their sturdy geometric
structure. Breaking this should easily release enough energy to detonate it.
(Or maybe you just had magic insensitive AP crystals like me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )
rjche February 1st, 2003, 09:18 PM

Metafractal, your experience with cream peroxide based AP may have discovered a way to make detonatable AP that is
insensitive to friction and impact.
I suspect something in the cream coated the AP crystals similar to the way that dextrose is added to lead azide to calm down
its extraordinary sensitivity to friction and thus allow it to be used commercially.
If you would be so kind as to share with us the ingredients listed on the cream peroxide bottle if there are any, and describe
in detail exactly how much of what you used to make that batch of AP, we may be able to home in on a form of AP that is very
safe to handle yet still an excellent initiator.
Many a valuable discovery came by someone who just did it a bit differently... Goodyear and rubber, Nylon, and a bunch of
other miracle plastics.
Yet to be determined is whether such coated AP requires a bit more to have the same initiating power as the uncoated. Even if
it required double that would be well worth having not to worry about lids blowing up when unscrewed, or when it was being
pressed into BC.
Also it may be found that the coating reduces its volatility...and that would be icing on the cake. All coatings are not alike until
proven so, that's why I would like to learn what exactly was in the cream peroxide you used. I have often thought about using
the lead azide coating method by adding some dextrose to AP acetone solution and letting it crystalize out with dextrose
coating it, but haven't had time to experiment much.
shooter3 February 2nd, 2003, 04:59 PM

Cream hardener is benzoyl peroxide(sp?). Could it be something other than AP?
[ February 02, 2003, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: shooter3 ]
rjche February 2nd, 2003, 10:30 PM

Sure could if Benyzol peroxide (BP) was the cream peroxide he meant.
I misunderstood and thought he used a beauty parlor cream type hair bleach, which might be 12% rather than 6% because
the cream buffered its corrosive nature, and kept it from running places not intended.
He may have achieved some combination of AP and BP, or a complex between the two, or other things. It would take some
high powered analytical equipment to tell just what resulted. However we don't need to know exactly what he made if it
performs well. Leave that to the theoretical types.
So, to rephrase the request, please test its initiation ability. If it can come up to #6 strength with a couple grams that would
still be worth doing. The BP, if the type used to harden fiberglass and similar types of filled putty, is not all that expensive,
and every auto store has tubes of it. If a useful primary that is very insensitive to friction and shock comes of his method, that
would be much desired.
metafractal February 7th, 2003, 08:59 AM

It was definiteley Hydrogen Peroxide cream. The label read "Cream Peroxide. 40 Vol. Contains Hydrogen Peroxide 12%". I
have seen Benzoyl Peroxide deflagrate and it is markedly different from Acetone Peroxide. For one, my substance burnt with
no visible residue (i.e. no black smoke).
Unfortunateley I am away from my lab for a few days, and therefore am unable to give more information. But stay tuned! I
keep a log of almost all the experiments or synthesi(sp?) that I do, and so can give a full account of method and materials.
Then I will synthesize by exactly the same method and carry out some more civilized test, or at least as civilized as an
ameteur chemist with limited equipment can be.
For now, I will tell you what I remember off hand:
The cream was white and had medium viscosity. I used one hundred percent Acetone. I used a large amount of HCl to catylize
the reaction. The crystals were super fine, and did clump an awful lot. This, could be utilized while they were still wet, as a
plasticizer.
I have since then used up that batch for an experimental incendary. It was a great success, but thats another story.
Anyway, full write up coming soon.
rjche February 7th, 2003, 07:12 PM

The fact it is listed as 40 volume suggests strongly that it is beauty parlor product with 12% strength to cut the waiting time on
a bleach job in the chair into half or so. Time is money and all that.
The creame can be most anything that does not interfere with its bleaching action. The cream is probably desired to keep 12
strength stuff running down from the head and bleaching skin or other remote hairs.
That cream may be an oil based substance, and that could radically calm down AP physical sensitivity. Remember how they put
Nitroglycerine into sawdust to calm it down to being safe for commercial shipping. Also some have calmed down AP physical
sensitivity by making putty from rubber glue and other things.
The ap made with a final wash with weak corn syrup water seems to be quite calm and grinding it under a 3 lb hammer face on
a steel anvil did not cause it to decompose.
That suggests it would be quite safe to handle, at least as safe as lead based compounds. I would be surprised if a crystal
cracking could initiate it unless it was one mother of crystals.
Nice thing about any inert coating on the crystals is that would prevent the energy released from one crystal "going" being
strong enough when it reached the closest one to make it "go", unless the crystals were really large, and a large crystal "went".
I trust the hammer grinding test on an anvil because that is really brutal grinding. The forces on the contact point are large.
Grinding tends to allow time for the heat build up from compression and friction to dissipate before getting to initiation temps.
A fast whack however lets things go wild instantly and that can set things off. A BB hitting some on an anvil would surely set it
off, although the energy of a hammer falling a couple inches would be much greater.
If you could use the brisance test using 22 LR hulls that is a fairly good test. Mercury fulminate leaves about 15 particles of
brass from a hull. The method is discussed in the optimizing apan thread. It tells rapidly whether a material is fast and sassy,
or just pushy.
NeoSanity420 April 25th, 2003, 09:35 PM

I've never used rubber cement to desensitize AP, but I have succesfully used super glue. The super glue was made of
cyanoacrylate. I made a saturated mixture, then waited for it to dry, and when it did, I broke it up into hard chunks that
detonated loudly even in very small amounts.
I usually seal my caps by putting a drop of superglue in the open end of the cap, then dip the end w/superglue into a pile or
container of AP. It mixes with the superglue, and makes for a more efficient detonation of ANNM as well as 15:85 APAN. I only
have to use a .31 or .36 or even .22 shells for the cap casing, and I almost always get complete detonations.
Anthony April 26th, 2003, 08:55 AM

"waited for it to dry, and when it did, I broke it up into hard chunks"
I urge you to rethink this practise!
NeoSanity420 April 26th, 2003, 03:43 PM

Well, when it was drying, it usually didn't stay in one solid piece anyway, and the amount I worked with when I tried it the first
time was about .5 g. After the small pile dried, I would just use tweezers to pick up a small piece that came off by itself.
I wouldn't think superglue would make the crystal structure sensitive in any way, because the AP never dissolved into it; the
glue only bound the AP together. The confinement from the hard glue only gave it confinement on the outside and in between
the crystals, and I found that the mixture desensitized the AP against shock.
I usually don't waste my time mixing it together anymore, because when I light a small piece, melted cyanoacrylate flies in all
directions. I got a piece of melted glue on my hand and, or course, it gave me a small burn. Now, I just put a small drop into
the end of my caps, then add a little loose AP to fill the cap to the end. I think it makes for a better detonation, especially if it
is in a compound cap. I put it in between the primary and the base charge (letting it dry before the base is loaded), and I find
it to be more reliable.
Efraim_barkbit May 2nd, 2003, 09:44 AM

That was some strange crystals..
I think I will let the left over solution stand a couple of weeks next time I make AP, just to see if that happens to mee too :D
FrankRizzo May 3rd, 2003, 03:50 AM

Do you use sodium bicarbonate to neutralize your product? If so, that looks a lot like crystalized bicarbonate on your stirring
rod. Burn some in an OB propane or butane flame and tell us what color the flame is.
fowkes.l June 22nd, 2003, 04:37 AM

Hi, im new on this forum but have been into explosives for years. I was wondering if any one recieved that report from
metafractal on his experiment using cream peroxide in the making of AP?
His experiment intrigued me and I was wanting to try it for my self. If any one has any info on his experiment or synthesis
could you please post reply or direct me in the correct path.
I have searched for his results but have been unable to find them.
yt2095 June 22nd, 2003, 08:20 AM

i`ve made a little det cap with a .22 shell casing, it`s not like the normal .22 casings i`ve seen before, it about half as long
again.
anyway, i pressed in about half a gram (the tube was about 2/3 full). then placed a small amouny of flash 70/30 then my
viscose fuse , packed that with tissue paper and put a few drops of super glue on the top to seal it.
reading through this thread, i`m begining to wonder if storing this cap (it`s been a week now) is actualy a wise thing to do. just
making the thing was more than enough excitement for one day, but now i`m a little reluctant to even look at the thing!
can anyone put my mind at rest as for it`s stability over time?
cheers and beers :)
Arthis June 22nd, 2003, 09:54 AM

There are many threads about storing AP... I would advise you not to store it for long as it may become shock sensitive. You
sure don't want your cap to explode in your hands when you take it, right ?
yt2095 June 22nd, 2003, 11:29 AM

Arthis,
Agreed, and most certainly not. 10 fingers have served me well in the last near 4 decades! :)
i was under the impression that most ALL det caps were shock sensitive anyway to a greater or lesser degree. i expect tho,
that with TATP the temperature difference between 1 site and another could certainly be a factor tho!
i`ve probably made a poor choice of primary for my det cap, as i wished to keep it for as and when i required it. Now i`m
rethinking that i must let this sucker go ASAFP just incase the weather gets a bit cooler and i lose the contents of the drawer i
keep it in :(
maybe i`m just paranoid? but unless it`s properly factory made, i have little confidence with compounds like this, esp when it
has a DV of about 5.3 Km/s
i`ll heed your advice, and blow the sucker tonight when it`s quiet an there no1 around.
Thanx Arthis, me and my drawer contents owe you one :)
kingspaz June 22nd, 2003, 03:24 PM

yt2095, if you want something storage stable then take a look at mercury fulminate, lead azide, DDNP or silver double salts.
all these have reasonable initiating capability and are reasonably storage stable. they also offer a slight challenge to make
compared to the peroxide explosives.
metafractal June 26th, 2003, 05:37 AM

Fowkes.l, sorry about that. Soon after I that post I ran into some trouble, and, in short, lost everything in my lab. I posted
briefly about this in some other thread, a while ago. Therefore, I never did get a chance to carry out those tests. But I have
some free time coming up, so if I can find that same hair peroxide again, I will post back about it. It was a no name brand, I
have described the physical properties in a previous post.
fowkes.l June 26th, 2003, 06:58 AM

Thanks alot metafractal,
i did an experiment yesterday, I used a washing liquid sold in a 2 litre bottle called Napisan liquid stain remover, it contains
6% hydrogen peroxide as well as some other additives plus soaps (no ingredients listed- except HP). The liquid is gloggy and
has a blue colour to it. I mixed 200ml with 150ml Acetone and then slowly added 50ml HCL acid. once I added the acetone
the napisan lost its glogginess and formed a white layer on the bottom. It has now been two days and no AP has fomed. I will
keep it an extra couple of days, if it doesn't work I'll throw it out.
I also did some tests with wet AP. It seems to me that it can't detonate while wet, from shock or flame. I placed a 7mm cubed
pile on a metal sheet and attempted to detonate it with a small sledge hammer (obviously wearing glasses, leather gloves
etc.). This was done 5 times and detonation was not achieved. I then placed 1 gram of moist AP in 22-250 rifle shell and
ignited it with fuse. It produced a small pop and a little fireball came out drom shell.- no damage caused to shell. I then used
2 grams same thing occured. I proceded lighting larger amount up to 1.5 teaspoons with an extended alluminium pole with
lighten stick on end. The AP was placed in empty match box container. It produces a large fireball up to 1.5 metres wide with a
swoosh. This was tried 4 times using different amounts.
- no detonation
My AP has been sprayed with a spray bottle filled with water, The AP was damp and formed small lumps.
I also must say that i wore alot of safety gear - so please don't think im foolish
fowkes.l June 26th, 2003, 07:58 AM

has anyone else got an experiment that they have recently tried which they could share?
yt2095 June 26th, 2003, 08:08 AM

as a matter of fact yes,
last night i thought i`de try alternative catalysts for TATP production
Nitric Acid works a charm.

Copper sulphate gives strange tiny flake like crystals that sink, unlike the TATP i`ve made before where most of it floats.
i`m not sure if it is even TATP yet, i`ll find out later tonight. these are just 2 of a series of experiments i wish to try using
different catalysts.
i`ll post full results when i know more :)
Efraim_barkbit July 2nd, 2003, 09:32 AM

:confused:
I have to tell you about some weird cristals in my last AP batch.

I made it with 30% H2O2 and pure acetone as usual. it was not a large batch,~1 dl fluid when all was mixed. the ratio was
50/50 acetone/H2O2
the acid used was 62% nitric, even since I got adviced by Kingspaz in the thread "alternative AP chemicals" not to use it.
the synthesis was carried out the same way as I usually do, except I didnt keep the temp down as much. (maximum temp
reached ~25 degrees C)
when I checked the batch the next day, it had some icelike "flakes" (like small, thin pices of ice)on parts of the surface. it was
VERY thin (I had to try 3-4 times to get one up without breaking it). I took a pice of it, about 1x0,5 cm, and put it on the table
and held my lighter to it.
when the flame touched it, it starded to melt, and formed a small drop before it ignited with a poof.
then I took another pice of the layer (same size, It was maybee to little to detonate?) and put it on a anvil and hit it with a
hammer.
I hit it several times, harder and harder, but I couldnt make it detonate, it only crushed into smaller pieces
I also tested to ignite some of the, still wet, "normal" crystals, and they behaved exactly as the AP from my previous batches.
I have washed and neutralized it now, and some of it are drying, and when dry I will test impact sensitivity on that to.
I hope it will be as unsensitive as the "flakes", but probably not.
the rest of the flakes broke up in smaller pices when I put it in a filter and during the washing, so there are nothing of them
left as "flakes"
maybee it was impuritys left in the reaction jar that caused it to behave like this, or possible side reactions from the nitric, as
mentioned by Kingspaz.
is there anyone else that had their AP "flake" like this?
EDIT: added a ~
knowledgehungry July 2nd, 2003, 11:46 AM

Nitric acid does react with Acetone to form nitroacetone:confused: not sure if it's called nitroacetone but ive made it a while
ago, did no tests on it, i had runaway nitration so i dumped the whole bath. I wasn't trying to make anything i was trying to
purify Nitric acid using the solvent method(DCM) but using Acetone instead... not the best idea.
yt2095 July 2nd, 2003, 12:02 PM

Interesting! :)
i`m intruiged now, tho i always mix my H2O2 and Acetone (pre chilled) 1`st then re-chill it.
the Nitric seemed to have given me a better yeild than either the H2SO4 or the HCL(aq).
and it behaved in the same way as normal TATP.
i neutralised it with Ammonia also, as my plan was to make APAN, and didn`t want to use/confuse the TATP reactions with
other chems (chlorides,sulphates) etc...
the CuSO4 catalyst failed to work and the odd crystal precipitate was not explosive, rather a contaminant in the CuSO4 crystal
i`de made years ago using a gell pack SLA battery.
this Acetone Nitrate sounds interesting tho, i`ll look into that :)
Efraim_barkbit July 5th, 2003, 06:47 PM

I have tested the impact sensitivity now, and compared it with some AP I had left from my last batch. It was no difference in
impact sensitivity.
the only difference were that the old AP had much larger crystal size, due to less acid used.
the AP from the nitric batch is like flour, the other like small sugar crystals.
BTW, I found this when searchin google:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=403&page=1#bottom
yt2095 July 30th, 2003, 07:31 AM
Ooooops!
I tried an unusual syth yesterday Acetone + Ether (50/50) then the usual AP synth technique.
Well! here`s what to do if you want HUGE AP crystals in the normal time taken to make regular AP (though why anyone would
want to beats me?) I only discovered this whilst trying to make Ether Peroxide.
the chems used:

http://www.yt2095.net/tests/chemused.jpg
the appearance when making:

http://www.yt2095.net/tests/4mmxtal.jpg
here you can just about see a 4mm AP crystal in the whute emulsified layer and the Ether floating ontop.
here are 2 crystals that I was crazy enough to extract from the dried mix.
http://www.yt2095.net/tests/appen.jpg
I`ve used an ordinary pen to show the size, there are bigger crystals than this in my mix!, but they seem all attatched so I`m
not touching them.
I lit a small one this morning with a lighter, a rather loud *Crack* echoed through the place and it left a small dent on the
metal tin I lit it on, of course NOW I have the task of getting rid of the 2 grams remaining???
I think maybe I`ll do a storage test with it somewhere in the open away from anything of value, see how long it takes to
completely vanish, SLOWLY I hope!
also, I left the AP in a flask of strong bicarb for 10 hours, stiring every half hour, I didn`t want to take any more chances than
I already had by letting this reaction get to completion in the 1`st place.
note, unless you have all safety precautions you need and some you don`t in place, I wouldn`t recomend ANYONE try this
deliberately!
vulture July 30th, 2003, 08:15 AM

yt, Do you have a death wish? Ether peroxide is even bigger shit than AP! It's sensitivity is somewhere between AP and NI3
and that is BAD.
Whole labs have been evacuated for an old bottle of ether which had been stored for too long. A simple shock or opening the
bottle could cause a vehement explosion which would then disperse hot ether vapour throug the air...:eek:
yt2095 July 30th, 2003, 09:02 AM

I couldn`t agree more, and yes I`m fully aware of it`s properties.
the point being, some may not be, and since this forum`s about education. who better to do some of these things 1`st and
take pictures. that someone that has the appropriate equipment/experience/and dare I say it Paranoia associated with
handling hazardous substances such as this.
I also have the time and patients not to rush headlong into danger (as some of the kewls or teeny-bombers might and do)
I certainly understand your concern, and although I`m shameless in taking precautions and measures neccesary to living a
long life, I feel that showing what NOT to do, is just as beneficial (within reason obviously)
the white emulsified layer is indeed a combination of TCAP and EP, it also serves well as an AP crystal "incubator" for wants of
a better word. be sure that the 4mm crystal isn`t as large as they CAN get, but that was as large as I felt comforatble dealing
with, plastic polyprop tweezers were used to extract from the 250ml bicarb soln. whilst wearing gun range goggles and kevlar
motorbike gloves, it was also done with a blast sheild and a mirror to see with.
Maybe I should take some pics of the techniques I employ?
death wish no... nerves of steel no... healthy respect and an understanding of potential but unapparent dangers, you bet yer
ass!
yt2095 August 1st, 2003, 11:11 AM

sorry to double post (an edit wouldn`t reshow this to people that have already read the last one), but a thought just occured to
me as to some of the numbers people use for PERCENT H2O2 when thay may mean O2 VOLS!
I`ve often seen "30%" H2O2 bought from a chemist, when in fact it`s 30Vols H2O2 and NOT percent at all! it would be only
9%!
on the last page (2 posts ago) I show the chems used to grow a huge(ish) AP crystal. the peroxide used is only 9% but 30
Vols is the 1`st thing to hit you when you read it!
I wonder now how many posts have this mistake incorporated into them?
Anthony August 2nd, 2003, 01:14 PM

Yeah, we've had a few people get mixed up between the two over the years. Doesn't seem to happen so much nowadays, I
think it's because of the higher average level of knowledge.
Arthis August 2nd, 2003, 03:21 PM

When using 130 vol H2O2 you can be tricked... ;) [-> ~30-35 %]
metafractal August 5th, 2003, 06:41 AM

A while back, when I made AP with 50% H202, 100% acetone and ~35% HCl (I always dilute reactants now, but that was only
soon after I got a hold of some 50% H202), the crystals came out very large, about 5mm long. The reaction did get hot a
little hot, but nothing much to worry about. The reaction was left to sit in about 4*C for about 24 hours. I remember I used the
proportions described by angelo in a post called "3% compared to 6% H2O2 -archive file", which I had bookmarked on the old
forum and had been unable to get back (are the archives accessable on this new setup?). After neutralization, I found them to
be of regular power and sensitivity (even though one would expect that a larger crystal size would make them more sensitive.
Note that no formal test were done, this is just from memory of use.)

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Microtek March 14th, 2002, 04:21 PM

I have been experimenting with a way to produce a more effective detonator in order to overcome my trouble with detonating plastique.
Simply increasing the size of the cap is not an option.
It is common knowledge that an initiating explosive in direct contact with a relatively insensitive HE is much more effective in detonating said HE than if said initiating explosive
was contained in a cap. This effect becomes more aggravated when the wall thickness of the cap increases.
Because of this, I have experimented with a caseless detonator
( CLD ) consisting essentially of a cast cylinder of nipolit. The CLD was prepared as follows:
- 35 parts of NC was dissolved in 140 parts of warm acetone.
- To this was added 65 parts of finely powdered RDX, and the resulting pliable compound was kneaded and air-dried until a uniform wax-like appearance was achieved.
- The compound was divided into balls that were able to fit into a 6mm ID paper-tube.
- These balls were then rammed into said paper-tube while still pliable in sufficient quantity to fill the tube to a 30 mm depth.
- The CLD was dried for 24 hours at room temp and the paper was removed.
- A 2.5 mm core was drilled ( carefully ) along the axis of the cylinder to a depth of 10 mm.
- The lower 5 mm was filled with compressed RDX, the next 2 mm with compressed MHN, then 2 mm HMTD and finally 0.5 mm silveracetylide to get the HMTD going.
Upon ignition, this CLD detonated completely, leaving no residue in the hard wooden block that I tested it on. Judging from the depth of the crater in the wood, it seemed more
powerful than a conventional detonator of the same size.
xoo1246 March 14th, 2002, 04:46 PM

How sensitive is this NC/RDX casing to chock and flame?
nbk2000 March 14th, 2002, 05:33 PM

Neither is very sensitive to impact or friction.
NC burns, without detonation, same for RDX, in small quantities.
So it should be very safe to handle.
Micro, have you thought about trying extrusion? Though I don't know if there's a significant density difference between that and compression.
This is a good idea though because the lack of metal means no metal detector can pick it up.

NBK: Yes I did try using a sort of extrusion into a paper tube, but the problem is that when the acetone evaporates, a large cavity is formed in the center of the CLD ( at least
it did when I used PETN instead of RDX ). If this is consistent behaviour then you could of course drill a core almost all the way to the end, and fill it with RDX or PETN, which
probably wouldn't hurt performance in the least.
With regards to the clandestine perspective it would also be advantageous that a block of plastique detonated with a CLD would leave no fragments that could possibly hold a
partial fingerprint, or be used for metallurgical forensics.
PS: If ignited, nipolit burns fiercely, but not nearly violently enough to make the DDT.
It is a slight problem that it ignites so easily from flame; if a primitive fuse is used, care must be taken that sparks do not strike the CLD.
I am confident that this could be overcome by coating it in a thin layer of varnish or wax.
[ March 15, 2002, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: Microtek ]
DBSP March 15th, 2002, 07:37 AM

It's a nice idea. The spark thing should definately be solved using a wax coating. What kind of fuse are you using?
If you put some pressure during the evapouration of the acetone maby it wouldn't form a cavity, but I'm nut shure how much pressure you should use.
Madog555 March 15th, 2002, 09:19 AM

i might try this out with PETN putty and either AP puty or AP pressed into a cavity (the same way tou did it.
Microtek May 20th, 2002, 06:41 AM

I have recently developed a variation on the CLD which works excellently:
The idea is that for initiating thin layers of explosive such as sheet-explosives, conventional detonator shapes with length to diameter ratio of about 50:6 are not really suited.
The problem is that these kinds of cap does not have sufficient contact with the plastique when placed externally. This causes unreliable initiation characteristics as well as
neccessitating an extra means of securing the cap to the charge.
Consequently, an alternate form of detonator is presented:
A piece of aluminium pipe 10 mm inner diameter and 1 mm wall thickness
is cut off to a length of 7 mm.
Both ends are left open and an amount of nipolit, cyclotol or similar
type of explosive is cast or extruded into the tube, which must be placed on a flat, non-porous surface.
The end-plug thereby made is allowed to dry completely without removing the tube from the flat surface, as it is essential that the explosive only dries from the inner end-
surface. This produces a smooth outer end-surface which is neccessary for optimum contact with the PBX that is to be initiated.
When dry, the cavity which is formed because of the shrinking of the NC is filled with pressed PETN or RDX.
A means of igniting the cap is introduced at the rear center of the tube; in my case a piece of drinking straw 2.5 mm OD was used. It was pushed slightly into the pressed PETN
without endplug. Then Al foil was pressed down around the straw with a rocket tamping tool and epoxy cement was used to seal the tube around the straw.
A coloumn of MHN, 3 mm in height, was pressed into the straw and 0.5 mm silver azide on top of this. 0.5 mm double salts was used to ensure ignition.
The cap was placed externally on one end of a ribbon of latex-based plastique 3 mm in thickness, 12 mm in width and 25 mm long.
This ribbon was placed on a witness plate of 2 mm thick mild steel.
Upon detonation a hole of 18 mm by 23 mm was blown in the plate, demonstrating both the viability of the latex-based plastique and of the detonator.
Mr Cool May 21st, 2002, 10:17 AM

Sounds good.
Have you ever tried making sucrose nitrate? If you use the procedure on my site the product is a putty when warm, but when cold it is a fairly brittle solid (although it will still
bend when a gradual, small force is applied).
If you used this as a base charge in that cap, and had about 1g sticking out of the bottom, then when you wanted to use it you could hold it in your hand for a few minutes to
warm it up, then press the sucrose nitrate onto the main charge. This would hold the detonator in place, and provide a very large contact area between the detonator's base
charge and the main charge.
Microtek May 21st, 2002, 10:31 AM

Yes I did try sucrose nitrate once. I didn't actually detonate it, just examined the mechanical and chemical properties. I obtained a tough bubblegum-like product, but I figured
it must contain lots of acid so I dissolved it in acetone, neutralized the solution with bicarb, and crash precipitated the ONS by drowning in water. The result was brittle crystals
that wasn't directly suitable as an energetic binder for plastique ( which was what I was researching at the moment ).
On this topic, I have found that if a little NG is added to acetone and an amount of MHN is then dissolved in this liquid and the acetone is allowed to evaporate, a wax-like
material is produced. I'm certain that this would yield really high performance plastique if a slightly oxygen deficient but very brisant explosive such as PETN or RDX was added
to suitable consistency. It would be slightly poisonous due to the NG, but not much is needed to plasticize the MHN.
Mr Cool May 21st, 2002, 11:57 AM

How long did you keep that NG/MHN mixture? I tried a similar mixture of MHN/SorbitolHN, but even with vaseline added it gradually crystalised and lost its plasticity. It was
pretty good for a few days though, very mouldable, slightly sticky, and didn't break up too easily. And it was almost as sensitive as MHN alone. It'd be a good mixture for base
charges.
Microtek May 22nd, 2002, 05:23 AM

At present, I've kept it for 4 days, but I don't think it will lose the plasticity as long as the NG hasn't evaporated. As you know, many nitric esters are plasticized by NG, and
while such a thing as blasting gelatine does set after some time, it doesn't become brittle.
Boomer September 22nd, 2004, 05:32 AM

Hi again everybody!
Thanks to fuckdefense the whole discussion that started again after I revived this thread is gone. All I have left is my memory and the locally stored post below.
From memory:
The PETN/NG mix mentioned by Microtek + NBK is similar to my mix described in the plastic explosives thread, consisting of MHN/NG 3:1, though I used I little less MHN to get
a softer mass, allowing to knead in the same weight of RDX.
Using even more solid nitrate ester, you get a mass that is soft at 50C and quite hard at RT. But I found that it is not too easy to initiate as there are neither gas bubbles nor
crystal surfaces inside.
Instaed, I tried pressing the MHN at up to 60000 PSI (4 tons per square cm or one ton (big vice) on a 6m column) inside a metal pipe. Though even a 1mm wall pipe
deformed, the block was hard to get out without crumbling.
Next I tried 5-10% epoxy. Only little is needed since the density (1.7) is near the crystal density (1.77 IIRC). I tried MHN, HMTD and AP, but none worked well, see below!
Last post from cache:
There seems to be hardly any binder for making caseless caps out there. After the disappointment with epoxy, which either reacts (peroxides) or doesnt harden (nitric esters),
I tried several others:
Super glue (cyano-acrylate) hardens within second, catalysed by moisture from the air (that is why it hardens faster if you breeze on it, and instantly if it gets in the eyes). The
explosive cannot be mixed in fast enough.
Thinning it down with 9x its weight of acetone worked to keep it soft, you could kneed enough MHN/AP mix (4:1) in, then let most of the solvent evaporate. The resulting
mass was still mouldable, and could be shaped into form.
I abandoned this mix for some reasons: It takes ages to harden, you do not know whether it has voids afterwards (though less then APP), and I hate kneading AP+solvent
while it is drying: bigger crystals might be formed .
Next I wanted to try a two-compound silicone, but it was too old and would not work. The one-compound kind needs air to dry, and will take ages again to get hard inside a
cap body. Plus, it is acidic.
The last thing (so far) I tried was a PU system (PU + blue filler / diisocyanate). I tested compatibility by mixing three samples with MHN, AP and HMTD, and heat curing these
at 80C. The MHN mix turned nearly black, but did not catch fire or start to smoke. The AP mix turned dark blue, but nothing further happened. The HDN mix stayed the original
nice light blue and showed no reaction whatsoever.
If curing at room temperature (preferable), the MHN mix got about as hard as normal rubber (pencil eraser), the AP mix as hard as hard rubber (tyres), and the HMTD mix got
as hard as wood.
I prepared three caps, one of each, by pressing 2g (+0.2g binder) of each mix into a pipe, then cutting it lengthwise to peel the block out. I tried PE and aluminium, coated
with PTFE inside using an oil- and fat-free PTFE lubricant spray which left a dry, white residue. The HMTD block (right, with hole for primary of EBW) peeled out easily, the
MHN block (middle) was OK, but the MHN/AP block (left) got deformed. I must admit that in the last case I had pressed too hard, which partially split the pipe.
If I get the digicam in time tomorrow, I will edit this and add pics. There are also some improvements in the pipeline (two-part die for pressing, dowel with pin to form cavity
for primary, filler-free PU to get by with less binder . ).
So far the old post.
Here comes a pic of the caps described above, and the die used for pressing the small cap which is still inside. The inner surface of the die was sprayed with PTFE before
screwing together and filling.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > detonator without a casing
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mr.evil A ugus t 9t h, 2002, 03: 02 PM

o r g a n i c p e r o x i d e s c a n b e d a n g e r o u s i n m etal casings, and when loading it into other casings(PVC, HDPE, Polyester etc.) it can
detonate by static electricity or friction.
But why do you need an casing? i think you can use pressed pieces of peroxide (like pressed stars, but the n m uch longer: 5 cm
long , 1cm widt) as a detonator too! Because it's pressed it detonates, instead of just burn.
Y o u c a n u s e t h e g o o d o l d d e x trin as binder.
S o w h e n y o u n e e d t o d e t o n a t e s o m e Secundairy explosives you just m a k e a h o l e in it with a pen or something, and put the
pressed piece of peroxide in the hole, then you put in the ignition(if you are using fuse you m ust be carefull, as the sparks
can detonate the prim airy. So i suggest you take a piece of card board wich fits exactly into the hole, and m ake a little hole in
it. For the use. You know what i'm saying...)
here you can see a picture of pressed peroxide , only a little bit smaller.
<img src="http://private.freepage.de/cgi-bin/feets/freepage_ext/41030x030A/rewrite/pyrotech/im a g e s / h m t d - t a b s - 0 1 . j p g "

alt=" - " />
well, what do you guys think?
plea s e d o n ' t l o o k a t m y shitty english <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
kingspaz A ugus t 9t h, 2002, 03: 07 PM

your english isn't that bad. it m a k e s s e n s e a n y w a y . m o r e t h a n m i n e o f t e n d o e s a n d i ' m english!
that looks ok but i thought m a y b e i f y o u h a d l i k e a v a s e l i n e l i n e d t u b e a nd cast some AP putty with fuse in ( a b o u t 1 c m ^ 2
worth) then rem ove o nce it ha s dried. then it would truely be caseless and you could insert it into the secon dary. because its
such a small amount of explosive its safer and also its enough because it would be in direct contact with the second ary. just a
thought anyways.
Mr Cool A ugus t 9t h, 2002, 03: 31 PM

There is a thread on caseless detonators started by Microtek, in this section. Look down the list a bit, the last reply to it was
May 22nd.
Plea se use that one.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Blasting caps...
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xoo1246 March 3rd, 2002, 06:58 AM

Remove
[ December 29, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
Madog555 March 3rd, 2002, 07:29 AM

doesn't this go in the HE section?
i ushaly use bullet shells for caseings. my favorites are .44 spec., .357mag, and .44 mag. and .223 these are very convienent
containers for me :D
i use AP
i don't press but i would like to make an aparatis to press safely.
i ushaly use visco from pyrotek but i do have some 1/4inch blasters fuse that i have yet to try out, im saveing it for something
big.
DBSP March 3rd, 2002, 09:33 AM

I normaly use rifle shells in different sizes. Wich caliber depends on how much explosve is needed. I normaly use 30-06,
8x57, .308, 9,3x62 and sometimes 22mag. I normaly use 2.5g primary either AP or HMTD. I have made a box that i contain
the chell during the compressing, I tamp it with a stick from above. I have a face-shield with ear protection when I press I
don't need gloves since My hand only are in the risk zone when filling the case and the risk then isn't very big. And I'm
planning on building a real press in the near future
I've made MMAN so I'm thinking of starting using that in my caps but I cant get it dry.
I use electrical ignition, bridge wires - nichrome. I've got 50m of thick wire and I use a car battery as a power source.
[ 03 March 2002: Message edited by: DBSP ]
Madog555 March 3rd, 2002, 10:13 AM

a long time a go there was a post that described an intrigeing(sp?) detonator design.
it consisted of a .223 shell full of a HE and a .22 shell full of primary placed in the neck of the cartridge with the fuse comming
out of a drilled hole in the back of the .22. a .22 fits perfectly in the neck of a .223 shell. i would like to try this design out. im
gona press the AP into the .22 case with a dowell. the case will be burried in the sand and i will wear adiquite protection. im
then gona fill the .223 with either PETN, TNP, or HDN(i doubt it will work with that though) i think the PETN should work siece it
is fairly east for me to set it off with a hammer. i tried this design with some old double base SP once and it didn't work.
do any of you think this will work?

Yes I think it can work. For larger caps you could use PVC pipe to hold the secondary and have the primary in a nother PVC
pipe that fits the secondary pipe. This way you could reduce the risks of having the primay close to the secondary since they
can be stored and transported seperately. I'm gona make some TNP as soon as I buy some KNO3 and asprin.
mongo blongo March 4th, 2002, 10:39 AM

I usually use 1g Lead Azide primary with about 2-3g of Trinitrophelol booster in a small steel tube (capacitor cases do the
trick). I always use electric initiation. I plan to obtain/make some Silver Nitrate so I can make some Silver Azide as my new
primary. I would also like to make some PETN for a better booster.
I was also considering using RDX as a booster. Does anyone know how much Lead/Silver Azide is needed to initiate RDX?

Not much, silver azide is a pretty powerful primary. 100mg should be plenty.
Don't bother with RDX though - yields are normally SHIT, and you don't really need anything better than TNP, do you?
Although if you can get PE, make PETN. It's so easy, good yields, powerful, stable... it's great stuff!

i tested the detonator i proposed in the last post i made. it worked very well. the PETN was hand pressed and the AP was
lightly pressed. it was 2-2.5g of PETN and probaly 0.1-0.2g of AP. blew a nice 3in hole in the piece of plywood it was on and
made a crater in the dirt under it. if you wana see pictutres i will take them. it was quite loud. in fact it reminded me of when i
set off ANAP for the first time (it was 20-25g).
PETN is great shit, it looks like i got a new standard detonator. i would like to dream up some Lead Picrate or extract Lead
Styphanate so i have a storage stable primary for these. it will be an easy, safe and storeable detonator. in storage i can
leave the little cap out of the .223 shell so if something goes wrong with the primary it will only make a very little explosion.
[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: Madog ]

A-BOMB March 4th, 2002, 11:33 AM

In my dreams I usually use a 22-250 rem shell and I cut it off about 3mm before the bottle neck, then I tap the old primer
out and inlarge the hole so I can fit in my visco fuse. Then I tap the 22-250 case into a .45 long colt, .45-70 gov, or a .444
marlin brass. Then I put a few drops glaze/glue stuff I got into it and rotate it as to coat the hole inside. I've used these just
by them selfs because they go off pretty good there even good with just BP or smokeless. And in my dreams I use what ever
primary that I have on hand.

Not really on topic, but does anyone know how much DDNP would be needed do detonate picric acid in a cap?
DBSP March 4th, 2002, 09:45 PM

Since DDNP is quite powerfull you probably wouldn't need very much a 22LR case would probably be more than enaugh.
Snipie March 5th, 2002, 08:06 AM

In my electronic fuses (not detonators), I use resistor wire (100 Ohm/meter).
This wire is sold in electronic stores , to mak e your own (precision ) resistors. It s a much better sou rce than th e lig ht bulb
method, because its cheaper and easier to handle.
The wires from my electronic fuses look like this:

*********---------,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
************************------
* = isolation from the wire

- = conductor from the wire
,, = resistor wire
the resistor wire itself is made from constantan, witch is a copper - nickel alloy.
[ 05 March 2002: Message edited by: Snipie ]

About the igniton. I use nichrom wire wich I pulled out of an old hairdryer. Each dryer contain enaugh wire to build more caps
than you coul construct in a day. The construction of the ignition is the exactly the same as Snipies. The resistance wire is
about 5-6mm long and is powered by a car battery. The wire gets red hot and burn off allmost instantly when the power is put
on.
I allso have comercial safety fuse wich I bought 10m off at Pyro-smalandskrutbruk in Braas, xoo you should allso be able to
get that fuse. I use fuse for charges wich deen to be waterprofed or when I don't have the time to get the electricals together.
When I last used electrical ignition I couldn't find my nichrom wire so I used steelwoll instead, it worked quite good. My
electrical caps have never failed to ignite except for once or twice when I've been in a hurry and haven't been thorrou enaugh
and the main wires have gotten together so that the current have passed the circle without running through the nichrome wire.

acording to "Improvised Primary Explosives" 0.7g of DDNP is equal to a number 8 cap
it also says that 1 gram of AP is a number 8 cap.

Now that I think of it the primarys that I mainly used in my dream were HTMD,AP, or double salts. Then out of those I used AP
the most and .4,.5,.6,.7,.8 grams what! In my dreams I used much more than that may 5-8 grams each, I like to make sure
things go off. And what do you think of my detonator cases?
Yi March 5th, 2002, 11:29 AM

Yeah I sometimes use wire wool between two wires for tiny amounts of primary, but for my dets I almost always use fuse
because its easier to transport than electrical ignition wires. also you don't have to pick up anything afterwards.
Also at the moment I use aluminium tube with one end sealed using careful hammering (before the explosive is loaded!!) I
hammer around the edge of the tube with a steel rod on the inside of the tube to prevent it from being crushed. The
hammering more time than its probably worth but once it is finished the end is closed very nicely and the end looks just like
drawn aluminium tube (like in commercial detonators).
For a safety shield i use a 1/2" thick heavy cardboard tube. Theres pictures of the test on my website. The tube is sufficient
shielding as my dets are never larger than 2g and the tubing is thin aluminium. At the moment I hand press but I'm in the
process acquiring materials for a press.
[edit: spelling]
[ 05 March 2002: Message edited by: Yi ]
Jack Ruby March 5th, 2002, 02:27 PM

Is there such a thing as Cap to big?
For example you are setting off 7lbs ANSOY or something similiar. You use 100g of AP Putty(AP/ With Double Based SP) in
Brass(Heavy Walled Tube).
Now that should be more than enough to set off that ANSOY...Right?
But is there such a thing as it being to much besides wasting a little Primary? Will there be any thing else that could go wrong?
I would much rather in Sure Detonation and waste a bit, instead of having a dud.
The above is probabley a huge extageration but makes the clearly point.
Yikes March 5th, 2002, 03:42 PM

0.5 g HMTD and 1.0 g TNT (or sometimes tetryl), in a .25 x 2.5" brass or steel tube. Sometimes with a fuse, sometimes
bridgewire.
I make them no sooner than actually needed, in less then 5 minutes. Small? Maybe, but these caps never failed to detonate
any charge I used them on.
shrek June 19th, 2002, 07:09 PM

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but no current ones seemed relevant.
I have some (400) Atlas Aluminum No. 6 blasting caps. This is great and all, but they are a little over 30 years old. I could not
find info on the Internet of what the explosive in them is, and so I dont know if they could become unstable over time. I was
wondering if anyone here had any knowledge of what they might contain, so I could decide whether or not they are safe to...
play with.
P.S. If you are from any law enforcement agency, I made this entire thing up. I dont have 400 blasting caps.
kingspaz June 19th, 2002, 07:18 PM

shrek, so long as they have been stored in dry cool conditions then they should be ok. but 30years is older than me so i
wouldn't trust them. does the company that made them have an email address?...if one could be found then you could ask if
they are safe or not.
shrek June 19th, 2002, 07:35 PM

They have been stored in an ammo box, under a building, so they have stayed dry, and cool. There was cloth around the
boxes of caps, and these have no sign of mildue, supporting my belief they they stayed dry. The company was bought out in
1972 by Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI), so I could try contacting them.
Einstein June 19th, 2002, 07:59 PM

I have bought about 200 blasting caps from my friend. They are FIREX VA- and UR-caps (high and low energy). VA caps
detonate from 0,4amps and UR-caps from 1,3amps. These caps are stolen from a construction site. I also had some
dynamite (650 grams, 5*130grams), but I have detonated them succesfully with #4, #6, #8, #14 and #16 caps. I use
something about ten meters electricwire and a lead battery (12V 7Ah). It has over 100 amps short circuiting current!!! So it has
ENOUGH power to detonate ANY kind of cap. I put a 4mm steel cable on the batterys contacts and...few sparks at first, then
the wire got red/yellow/BRIGHT-white and then melted entirely...hehee...
Anthony June 19th, 2002, 08:43 PM

I doubt ICI will be very helpful, they'll most likely to tell you to play it safe and bin them, seeing as you can always buy more
because you are licensed to be messing with this stuff, right? (obviously you're not, but you don't want them to know that...).
I'll stick my neck out and say that the primary is probably mercury fulminate, maybe with a PETN base, but it's really only a
guesstimate.
That poor battery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
[ June 19, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
Madog555 June 19th, 2002, 09:08 PM

i bet its tetrly, i dunno how mutch PETN was used then.
Helos July 1st, 2002, 09:49 PM

Iam planning to use TNP in a detonator.
As primary-primary I am planning to use HGfulminate or more possible DDNP or na-TNP.
How much of this do I need to set of the TNP.
na-TNP seems interresting because its easier to do it and find its chemicals. Someone who have practical experience of this.
Is it an good idea to fill a cap with only na-TNP,HGfulminate or DDNP, or do I need bigger detonators then?
how much do I need to get a 8 detonator?
kingspaz July 2nd, 2002, 07:26 PM

Helos, by na-TNP i assume you mean the sodium salt which can be written more clearly as sodium picrate. i am not sure how
much DDNP or mercury fulminate would be required. it could be very little (if in primary is in direct contact with the TNP) or it
could be a great deal if there was an air gap between the TNP and primary. it depends on the detonator construction. but at a
guess i'd say a gram of either would do it with no trouble at all. however i don't think sodium picrate is that flame sensitive or
particulalry powerful....go for DDNP since if you have TNP your half way there :)
Helos July 2nd, 2002, 07:41 PM
Yes, I think i will go for DDNP, if I get or make nitrite.
I was also wondering what nitrate will do to the reaction.
Nitrite, as that you manufactured yourself Kingpaz, or old oxidated contains ofcourse nitrate.
If i use TNP, is it vice to have an AL-tube for the det?

How sensitive is Al-picrate if it form at all, its possible it do, if for example the det was broken or the storageperiod is long.
Also, will the combination mercuryfulminate/TNP work without any problems or dangers? I mean then loaded in a blasting cap
when they are in directcontact withe each other.
ALENGOSVIG1 July 2nd, 2002, 07:55 PM

30 Year old blasting caps? Yikes i wouldnt want to go near them. They may be fine, but you never know. I'd just detonate em
all at the same time.
There only #6 caps anyways.
V@N July 30th, 2002, 08:12 AM

Why don't you try 1 or 2 of them? if these are ok then the others should be ok too. But if you don't want to risk it do as
alekos said, detonate them all together. Better to lose some detonators than risk your life right? <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
V@N July 30th, 2002, 08:33 AM

I meen alengosvig .... sorry... I was thinging something alse and I wrote it here :D
kingspaz July 30th, 2002, 10:16 AM

V@N, use the edit post function intsead of double posting. its the icon above the text on the far right. and don't post a one
line reply saying you never saw it.
V@N July 30th, 2002, 11:33 AM

OK. Sorry I didn't knew that. Thanx for telling me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Arkangel July 30th, 2002, 12:27 PM

"There may be trouble aheeaaaaaad" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> V@N please try to stop being an
idiot?
Anyway Shrek,
The No6 dets I used in the military were not powerful enough to set off any kind of HE. They were used with a slightly tapering
cylindrical primer of guncotton and that did the trick.
And regarding old gear, MOST of the explosives I was issued for destruction of blinds and simple dems was over 30 years old
The armourers were quite keen to get through their old stock, and we were the people to do it - expendable y'see. Mind you,
why they didn't just put it all in a BIG pile :D and blow it is beyond me :rolleyes:
I'd personally be confortable using dets that old, but each to his own. Having regularly been given TNT made in 1941 I figure
if I was going to go, it would have been back then.

IMHO, they're much more likely not to work than to be super-sensitive or anything. There aren't many explosives that become
more sensitive as they get older, nitrate esters mayber as they decompose and release nitrogen oxides, but nothing else I
don't think except the odd perculiarity.
As someone said, the base charge will most likely be tetryl or RDX, but it could be PETN. Fancy cutting one open and having a
look? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
But the bridegwires may have corroded, creating a break in the circuit, or if it got damp the pyro igniter may have failed,
something like that.
Hmmm... #6 sets of guncotton eh? Interesting, I didn't think it was quite that sensitive to initiation. Well, you learn something
every day!
Energy84 July 31st, 2002, 01:42 AM

The only explosives that I have ever personally heard of that got sensitive because of age was dynamite. But this was only
due to the fact that there was a whole box full sitting in an old barn. It had been there so long that the NG actually seeped out
of it and the floor was getting dampened because of it.
On second thought, I guess it didn't actually change state or anything like that, but if just got more dangerous to handle.
shrek July 31st, 2002, 01:56 AM

Well I just tried screwing with a few of them individually (sp?) and they seem stable enough. I dropped a 1 lb. weight from
about 1 foot, and nothing happened. I then tried lighting some, and they worked. They are kinda small, but i'll just put them
in a .303 shell with a booster packed around it. Hey, they were free, I can't complain. :)
EDIT:
shrek <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ July 31, 2002, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: shrek ]
KinePak August 1st, 2002, 09:02 AM

My caps are aluminum tubes, with 2grams PETN, then 5grams AP, and then topped off with black powder to give the AP a
better charge, and this set up will set off 1kilo of ANNM, but the cap must be placed into the charge with only the fuse sticking
out
DBSP August 1st, 2002, 09:39 AM

You wouldn't need that much to set ANNM of, you'd get away with 2g AP alone at the surface of the charge.
xtreme August 1st, 2002, 03:51 PM

From my experience 2 gram AP is way to short to detonate ANNM
It takes much more to be shure all ANNM will detonate.
And yes, from my experience too the best place for the AP is on the surface.
xoo1246 August 1st, 2002, 04:01 PM

Remove
Helos November 5th, 2002, 03:04 PM

HMTD is a much better initiator than AP.
They are both organic peroxides, but they powers are not the same!
DBSP: Do you mean that the best place to place a charge is on the surface? When I fired ANNM I put the detonator in the
middle of the charge, I thought this resulted in a better detonation and a more probably detonator.
With "at the surface" do you mean attached to for example a plastict hinwalled bottle filled with ANNM?
[ November 05, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Helos ]
NERV November 5th, 2002, 04:39 PM

I think what DBSP meant was that you could set off ANNM if you placed the 2 grams of AP on its surface.
Well since I am here might as well describe my caps. My caps are usually made out of a piece of straw about two inches in
length. First I ram a little bit of clay into the straw to plug the bottom opening. Then I load about 2-3 grams of pressed AP
into the straw. I then pour about .5 grams of NaClO3/sugar igniter mix on top of the AP. When I use fuse I just stick one end
of it into the cap and seal it off with clay. When I use electric (I only use electric for underwater blasts) I just place a piece of
steel wool into the igniter mix then seal the end off with clay. If I need a booster I just slide the cap into one of the small
plastic test tubes I have and pour about 4 grams of TNP around it, then I seal the tube up with clay. I have never had a failed
detonation with one of these.
nobody November 7th, 2002, 06:27 AM

I use straws with a diameter of 6mm for my caps. 3cm HMTD, slightly pressed, are 0,5g. With this caps I'm able to detonate
ANNM, 30-40g pressed into a film canister (height 5cm, diameter 3cm). The cap is placed at the side of the canister.

You mean that you just tape the cap to the side of the filmcanister and that this detonates the ANNM!? Which proportions AN/
NM do you use?
Sounds intresting...
Is it anyone who can give a scientific answer where the best place is for the detonator. Is it on the side (of the filmcanister) or
is it in the middle (of the filmcanister) ?? Or is it no great difference?
Anthony November 7th, 2002, 05:29 PM

The best place for a cap is in contact with the explosive at the centre of the charge.
carbonated November 7th, 2002, 05:34 PM

I would imagine that the detonator in the middle would work better since it is touching more of the explosive and all the blast
will go into the explosive, rather than into the air. Even underground where the dirt may tamp the cap, some energy will still be
lost in the dirt.
nobody November 7th, 2002, 08:14 PM

I've tried to put the cap into the secondary -> the ANNM didn't detonate, only the filmcanister bursted. I think, it's because
0,5g HMTD produces about 500ml of gas. Maybe this works better with azides or acetylides until they don't produce that
amount of gas as HMTD does. I've never had a failure, when I taped the cap to the side of the canister. I used the 100g/30ml
mixture as well as the 100g AN, 20ml NM and 16g cheap aluminumpowder mixture. Last is my favourite :)
edit: It works even if thrown in the air.
[ November 07, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: nobody ]
Zach November 8th, 2002, 12:48 AM

thrown in the air!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> what on earth are you doing throwing a high
explosive above your head?
nobody November 8th, 2002, 04:42 AM

Thrown in a secure direction, of course.
What I wanted to say is that you don't need any extra confinement.

I will try to test and verify this sometime folowing exactly your insctructions.
We will se, but you may have right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
How was your AN treated? This is important because the sensitivity of ANNM can depend on if the AN was owendried or just
grinded.
nobody November 8th, 2002, 06:55 PM

My ammonia nitrate was made out of fertilizer. The AN-solution was heated at approx. 120C to drive off the water. The
resulting block of AN was smashed, then grinded in a coffee grinder (not too fine, just like grinded coffee <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Then the AN was dried at approx. 85C for 4 hours and stored in an airtight container.
kingspaz November 9th, 2002, 06:52 AM

try and keep this on topic...
Cricket November 9th, 2002, 06:00 PM

Say I had 3 zip-lock bags of say, PETN, all the same, and I had to put the largest dents possable in three 20mm steel plates.
I put one detonator on the bottom, touching the plate and the explosive. I put one detonator on the middle. I put one
detonator on the top. The sack with the detonator on the bottom would explode and the explosive above (before detonating)
would act as tamping, blocking the escape of the gasses underneath it for a very very split second. The sack with the
detonator on the middle would be more likely to detonate the charge, and the detonator would explode resulting in
approximate uniform detonaton, except the bottom where the gasses would push down on the plate. But on the top of the
sack, the gas os going the wrong way, away from the plate. The sack with the detonator on the top, the detonator would
explode and as the detonaton propogates downward, the energy of the explosion would be somewhat directed to the plate.
But since the detonator was at the top, the gas would much rather go away from the plate but some of the energy will certainly
be transferred to the remaining explosive and plate. All this is IMHO. Now for the real reason of this post; can/couldn't you use
a stun gun instead of a suspicious bulky battery for an electronic detonator? Seems less suspicious, more reliable, and easier
to use (lighter to carry in the field)? May have been discussed before, but I don't think so (been gone for a while).
[ November 09, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]
Anthony November 10th, 2002, 12:27 AM

I don't see the different blasting cap positions making a discernable difference to penetration of the plate - providing that
they are all capable of fully detonating the main charge.
Personally, I'd rather be stopped with a lattern battery than a stungun. AP and HMTD are sensitive to the spark from a
stungun, but I know that BP isn't. So depends on your cap design.
Celtick December 24th, 2002, 09:12 AM

Since I made another batch of HMTD last weekend, I also made some dets. I used some plastic tubing with a diameter of
9mm. I glued the end cap onto the tube with an electrical glue gun. After the cap is filled, I closed it with another plastic cap
with the ignitor wires sticking out, I also sealed this cap with glue, so its totally waterproof.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/goth/celtick/Det.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/goth/celtick/Det.jpg</a>

(copy and paste link)
[ December 25, 2002, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: Celtick ]
Eliteforum December 24th, 2002, 08:53 PM

The pictures not showing up.
Keyser Soze December 28th, 2002, 05:26 PM

I find that the bodies of whistling bottle rockets make perfect detonators. You can keep the powder that you empty out of
them for other purposes and the ends are easily sealed with some balls of tissue paper and then glue if you like. I have had
success using both electrical and fuse ignition with these.
Microtek December 29th, 2002, 09:27 AM

There is a lot of difference in performance depending on the location of the detonator. If the bags were filled with a low order
explosive, the reasoning would be correct; tamping and gas flow would affect the performance as you say.
But with HEs, and especially with high performance HEs like PETN or RDX, the picture is entirely different. The power of the
shockwave depends on how much explosive it has passed through before impinging on the target. This is because the
phenomenon of detonation is somewhat analogous to the mechanism of stimulated emission in lasers; as the shockwave
passes a grain of HE it causes the detonation of this grain and the resulting shockwave propagates along with the original one,
effectively adding its power.
This effect has two important consequences:
1) The dimensions of the charge ( or the placement of the cap ) has a pronounced effect on the performance as the distance
the shockwave has to build up superponation ( the 'accumulation' of waves ) is vitally important.
2) The direction of propagation of the shockwave relative to the surface on which it impinges is also of monstrous importance.
As illustration, imagine a block of TNT that is one inch wide, one inch deep and three inches long.
This charge is placed against a thick steel plate so one of the long sides is touching the plate. If the charge is initiated from
the side opposite the one touching the plate, we will get a moderate dent in the plate; the wave is impinging directly on the
plate, but with only one inch of 'acceleration'. If the charge is initiated from the end we will get almost no denting of the plate
as the wave is travelling parallel to the plate, still, there will be a dent and it will be more pronounced towards the end of the
charge opposite the detonator.
If we place the charge on its end so it is touching the plate with one of the two small sides and initiate from the opposite small
side we will get the deepest dent possible as the wave travels far enough through the explosive to get as powerful as possible
and also impinges directly on the plate without any deflection.
Sorry for the long lecture, but it is crucial to understand these mechanics, especially when hard targets and high explosives are
considered.
spydamonkee December 30th, 2002, 01:57 AM

very well said microtek thats pretty much exactly how i pictured it.
i recently aquired 50+ red POHA crackers so i will be testing these with APAN too see if they make good BC's APAN aitn that
hard to set off so im hoping these work.
my normal BC's consist of 4cm of 5ml drinking straw with one end blu-tacked then AP is pushed inside with a metal hex key
untill almost full then eletrical wire with steel wool bridge wire is inserted and blu-tacked into place.
result = colorfull waterproof blasting caps that are see thru allowing u to see the AP inside :D
good for any APAN charge which is what i use for my boosters for ANFO, CANFO & ANNM.
zylion January 10th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Look what I found in a dutch magazine last week.
It's a little more time consuming making it, but I think it gives a better and more reliable blasting cap then working with a
common "bridgewire" blastingcap.
What we need is a piece of PCB-board(both sides copperplated), a piece of nichrome wire(150 Ohm/meter)and a solder(30
watts).
First we cut the PCB into little pieces, about 5 mm width and 12 mm lenght. Size in this case doesn't really mather, :D we take
one of these pieces and strip the copperlayer half way this piece off(just one side) so we have one side complete, the other
just half. Now we solder the Nichrome wire on the top to both sides,securing it with a clamp to get it straight. Next we solder
some wire on the PCB piece to connect to our battery. With some warm water and a little bit alcohol we remove the resin and
other pollutants on the piece and let it dry. Then "dipping"it in a mixture of Black powder 50%/50% smokeless powder or of
course any other sensitive mixture to create a nice droplet on the bridgewire makes a very nice beginning. By using some
nailpolish making the brigdewire less sensitve to friction or moisture this part is complete. Here is a idea about using a casing
to hold de prim and sec in. Using the tiny glass ampuls, as can be found in parfumstores, often given away as a sample are in
my opinion useable. There almost isn't any trace left when they explode, the glass will be pulverized. Another + is that the use
of picric acid can now be a little more save, with out spraying copper casings with PU-spray
vulture January 10th, 2003, 08:31 PM

IIRC, copper isn't compatible with HMTD, so watch out.
Al Koholic January 11th, 2003, 03:41 PM

For my caps I use christmas lights. The little white (or other colors) ones. A string of a hundered bulbs is like a buck. I snip off
the light by cutting the wire to leave about 1.5 inch leads up to the bulb. Then I use a pair of pliers to snap off just the last
little bit of the bulb, leaving the main glass casing intact.
Next, fill the remaining part of the bulb up with crushed up match head powder...works wonderfully considering the spark from
the wire fillament is VERY small. I then place the bulb into either a section of straw, metal tubing, or ziti....ziti (I think that is
the stuff, the tubular pasta) works wonders. It is chemically compatible with every primary I can think of, is very hard/tough,
and its edible!
The tube is filled with picric acid and a small amount of DDNP (or AP). To cap the end of the tube I usually just ram some
blutac, clay, or tissue into it. Wrap it up with tape to keep everything tight and good to go electric blasting cap.
For ignition I use a disposable camera.
longwaytofall October 31st, 2003, 02:49 AM

sorry to bring this topic back from the dead, but i was under the impression that ap is not cool with metals, such as gun shells.
seems to me that allot of people are using this, so im not gunna worry about it, but just wanted to know if i should worry if i
made the usual ap rifle round and stored it for a long period of time. thanks!
Guerilla October 31st, 2003, 09:25 AM

This should be obvious to everyone, but seemingly not.. Storing AP for a long perioids of time in any kind of container is
stupid, due to sublimation->recrystallation of bigger and extremely sensitive crystals. I know of a person who lost fingers when
a two weeks old aluminium ap-cap accidentaly detonated in his hand while he was inserting it in a main charge; for all I know
it was only a gentle brush against concrete surface that set it off. AP is not worth of injuring yourself.
K9 October 31st, 2003, 12:05 PM

Yes storing it like that is quite dangerous and of course not worth the risk. But for use in near future, AP seems to be less
reactive to metal than does HMTD. I personally use plastic to contain my AP or HMTD detonators.
Nevermore October 31st, 2003, 12:39 PM

Ap is for sure little reactive toward matherials, i don't know about HMTD but i must say that AP looks like attacking plastic, i
used a plastic spoon to work with AP and leaving it for a while inside the spoon granulated the surface of the plastic, i think
some plastic are being dissolved than AP so check carefully where you store it.
Cyclonite November 1st, 2003, 06:57 AM

Your spoon was reacting with acetone, acetone doesnt play well with plastic. Glass is really the way to go. I have used plastic
bottles to store acetone in and it makes them deform after awhile.
Nevermore November 1st, 2003, 07:49 AM

well i abandoned making AP after i realized how much it is unpredictable..
Cyclonite November 1st, 2003, 11:06 AM

I believe its quite predictable. Its so easy and cheap it makes for decent available caps to use. As long as you take the proper
precautions there isnt any big problem. Any explosive can be said to be unpredictable but in actuality its easy to find out its
properties and what the pros and cons are. I think the bad reputation AP has is.... well deserved but in the end its no more
capable of injuring you for pissing it off than any other explosive. Its just a tempremental primary
Nevermore November 1st, 2003, 12:04 PM

The real problem with AP is that requires a minimum amount to detonate and also gives out the best only when pressed..i
don't like working with 0.7-2 grams of ap, i prefer to work with less quantity of DS, that are much more insensitive and can be
pressed quite good..
@microtek
is long time i am looking for some info like that, do you have an ebook about that topic? would you upload on the ftp?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD accident
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View Full Version : HMTD accident
S. Toppholzer August 15th, 2002, 02:54 PM

gentlemen,
i was lucky. i had surgery this week and thankfully most of my fingers are somewhat fine.
I tried figuring out what went wrong.
here's what O did.
I mixed 4 grams HMTD witn NC lacquer (acetone based) and filled the liquid in a plastic container made of crystallized polistyrol.
after a couple of minutes it spontaneoulsy detonated and hurt me pretty bad.
i think what happened was an acidic sidereaction because the plastic reacted with the acetone -> acid has been set free -> detonation.
am i correct?
A-BOMB August 15th, 2002, 04:15 PM

Toppholzer, how bad were your injuries? How far away were you when it went off, how big off a charge was it? And most of all be careful, most of us would be saddend to see
another forumite hurt or killed or even not able to continue with our dangerous hobby. So from me and I would guess most of the other forumites I'm glade you alright.
xoo1246 August 15th, 2002, 04:34 PM

Oh, thankfully you didn't loose any fingers. Glad you didn't hurt yourself too badly. How does this affect your relationship with the hobby?
xtreme August 15th, 2002, 04:35 PM

S. Toppholzer
Did you washed your HMTD, removing the acids/remaining H2O2 ?

When I get my HTMD (after the 3 hours) out of the refrigerator and let it become on room temp. it is getting real hot.
A time ago I had a coocking HTMD-solution <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
This was very scarry. So....room temp. = 20 degr.C (controled with bad)
So...when you did not remove the acids, the reaction continous en the
temp. rise.....rises to high and detonate...perhaps ?!
Or....remaining H2O2 reacts with your acetone of your NC solution and forming AP....on a far to high temp instead of the 5 degr.C ?!
Just some thinks coming in my mind....

S. Toppholzer, fucking hell!...i'm glad you're relatively ok.
had you neutralised the NC and HMTD? you seem to have enough sense to neutralise the HMTD but did you neutralise the NC well?
Al Koholic August 15th, 2002, 07:32 PM

Holy fuck man...that is a strange accident and I am glad you are ok. Well the acetone would have surely absorbed into and softened (I don't believe an actual acid-freeing
reaction occured) the polystyrol (or was it polystyrene...either way). However, this I can't see being a problem since the acetone is not reacting with the plastic. This could just
be one of those things. HMTD is inherently unstable and there is always a statistical chance that it will detonate by itself just sitting there. Could just be bad luck to be honest. I
hope your injuries heal and you feel better. I once had a 2 litre wine bottle full of hot HCL and Al foil blow up in my hand. It was intended to be a hydrogen gas generator with
2 water filtration chambers (to extract HCL vapor) and all. It was working fine for a few runs but then one time...a little too much of one or both of the reactants and the small
diameter of the hose connecting the reaction vessle to the filtration vessles...BOOM. Blew hot acid and glass all over the room. Two nice gashes on my arm and a lot of blood
later I know what kind of experience it is to have unexpected things happen like that. Although, live and learn and hope that the way wont have to be too hard man.
Eh hem...sorry for that little tangent there but I really hope things are alright. Peace.
Al
FarbrorBosse August 15th, 2002, 10:06 PM

I'm very sorry to hear you got hurt.
Sounded like some of your fingers got badly damaged, is it so bad they wont look like they once did or?
And how did your surroundings react such as relatives/neighbors hospital and police?
AP and HMTD does not just detonate without reason.
In room temp AP sublime into the air little by little and 2 things that can go wrong while dealing with it is traces of impurities reacting with surrounding material causing heat, or
a container such as a closed coke bottle with traces of H2O2 left causing more and more pressure until the bottle finally break resulting in a quick burnout in the AP as well, no
matter if acid and water is still in the bottle.
If you mix ammonia and iodine the crystals can explode by its own weight, but to cause a detonation in AP crystals or HMTD you need a pressure of 0.3 Nm for AP or a 0.1 Nm
friction.
[edit] questions added.
[ August 15, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]
NERV August 15th, 2002, 10:08 PM

Dude, I hope your okay. That has got to suck ass. What kind of injuries did you get.
Disgusted_with_Society August 15th, 2002, 10:10 PM

Glad youre okay, are you still going to have full use of your hands? I have a friend that had a similar accident back in the day and till this day he cant write with that hand.
(Sorry didnt mean to scare ya) But I really hope youre okay. Get well soon.
0EZ0 August 15th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Geez, your a lucky bugger not to have more substantial injuries!
Hope the hand heals up well.
As for what might have caused the detonation, more information is needed. What kind of NC lacquer did you use? Had the HMTD been completely neutralised of acid? Did you
notice any heat generated from putting the HMTD/lacquer in the Polistyrol.
It may be that you got an acidic side reaction from the Polistyrol, in turn detonating the HMTD.
If the NC Lacquer was made from mixing Commercial Smokeless Powder with Acetone, then it is very unlikely that any acid could have been in it. Commercial SP is neutralised
many times because of NC's sensitivity to remaining acids.
If the NC was homemade and not properly neutralised then that may have been the problem.
But all is on speculation awaiting further details of what happened.
If this had of happened to me, I'd be righteously pissed! It must have had quite a psychological impact on you apart from physical.
Anyways, get well mate :)
THErAPIST August 16th, 2002, 01:13 AM

holy shit kid... that sucks. ive had a couple close calls but i havent gotten hurt bad. seeing as how youre typing i assume youre gonna be ok. hope everythings cool. i dunno
why exactly it would have detonated, guess thats just how it goes. shit happens. both hands messed up or just one?
Microtek August 16th, 2002, 03:17 AM

I have done some experiments with partially desensitizing HMTD with wax. I have done it by dissolving a little wax in gasoline and then mixing the HMTD with the soln. The
gasoline is evaporated while the slurry is stirred or kneaded slightly. I haven't yet established the best amount of wax, but adding so little that the HMTD remains powdery can
make it unable to make DDT even when mixed with lead styphnate.
I should think that the wax would also make it less reactive, so accidents like these could be avoided. I only regret that this advice comes too late to help in this case.
S. Toppholzer August 16th, 2002, 10:57 AM

Well,the detonation caught both my hands and one finger will surely remind me forever for what stupid jackass i have been.
Anyways, the NC lacquer used was made of ping pong balls dissolved in acetone. The HMTD was definately neutralized.
I think another explanation might be that the plastic softened up, caught some HMTD inside and dried again. while shrinking the pressure got too high and it went off.
To be honest - for now I surely have had enough of experimenting.

(Besides of all the legal troubles this s%@%t brought me in)
DarkAngel August 16th, 2002, 01:23 PM

So you still have them all 10?
Did the doctors said how the accident will affect your live? (Problems with writing and stuff like that)
When i almost set my kitchen on fire with the KNO3/Suger comp. i thought the same thing "No more experiments" but that idea never staid long in my mind.
But im not the one that almost lost my hands.
Uhm does 2kg of ANNM that detonated 20m behind me count? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ August 17, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]
Kdogg August 16th, 2002, 10:13 PM

Damn DarkAngel, What all happened to you? What was the experience like, I myself have never been that close to a shockwave. Sorry to hear about that S.Toppholzer, what
are some of the legal issues you are in? How did authorities find out.
nbk2000 August 16th, 2002, 11:35 PM

The cops find out when the hospital calls them to let them know that some guy has come in a few fingers short of a full hand and with shrapnel in remaining meat.
Do the math. :rolleyes:
So, did you lose a finger? Or just use of one?
Understandably you'd want to take a break from experimenting. But don't give up on it. After all, Noble lost a brother to NG, and almost got killed himself, but he didn't stop
working with it.
None August 16th, 2002, 11:59 PM

Sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you don't get into much trouble with the police.
I vaguely remember someone posting about an accident with HMTD/NC. I think they made a few charges in M80 casings for a celebration. They went off when they were
drying. I think it was on this forum that i read it. I quickly tried looking for it on the archives but couldn't find it. I would avoid mixing HMTD with anything after reading of
numerous accidents with it in mixes.
BTW, August to December of your 2001 archives on prohosting don't seem to work.
PYRO500 August 17th, 2002, 01:01 AM

If that happened to me I'd pitch them the old urban legend of lighting a welding torch witha disposable lighter witch if the torch melts the lighter through is likely only to get
enough oxygen to make a frireball. I am one of the rare few to have a lighter actually explode in their hand, in my case it was with BP. anyway's there are many other things
you could tell them but if whoever drives you tells a diffrent story your fucked anyways.
I think in some cases I'd rather loose a digit and risk infection than sit in a prison for creating a destructive device and being labeled a terroist.
[ August 17, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
frostfire August 17th, 2002, 01:28 AM

from your description, it seems your hands are completely okay...just one "different" finger as a monumental memory...get well soon :)
Were your materials improvised? or lab grade?

If improvised, then who knows how many variables play parts in the accident.
I myself always used lab grade. However,.....
guess things had gone better for me, (testing det)1gr AP putty with a disposable lighter. Fuse "melts" AP went off even before the lighter flame went out (well, the explosion/
air expansion blow it out anyway)
Ears ringing for 9 hours, right ear felt numb, right palm full with tiny black dots...and that was it, I threw the urea nitrate bags that were supposedly detonated away...and I
quit..that was 1.5 years ago....which is why I'm not a good forum contributor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
[ August 17, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: frostfire ]
Kdogg August 17th, 2002, 01:31 AM

Doesnt always work like that though nbk.
My mom works as a paramedic, (Part time job) & she said they have brought kids to the er before that have had hand injuries from illegal explosives they called them. Which
really is true, cause this day and age anything that could cause a serious hand injury is almost always an illegal device.
Me having an interest in this hobby we all enjoy so much, got paranoid about it happening to me,(this was a while back, my parents have long since gotten used to my hobby)
asked her what happened to the kid, shes explains to me about his sugery, & I said, "No, what were the consequences for using the explosive, did you or anyone else call the
cops?" She said they usually let the parents decide what to do about the incident. Cause they would rather not have pissed parents for getting their kid in even deeper shit, &
just not notify the police, because they are not obligated to. (dont quote me on the part where they dont have to notify authorities) The employees may have just been trying
their best to bend the rules, to steer clear of extra work.
10fingers August 17th, 2002, 12:19 PM

I had an accident with HMTD putty. I mixed it with SP dissolved in acetone then put it in paper cylinders to dry. There were 5 of them and they were about the size of an M-80.
They were in my workshop drying for about a day when they spontaneously detonated. The small table they were laying on was blown to bits and pieces of it were sticking in
the walls.
I was very lucky because in about 5 minutes I was going to pick them up to test them. I posted about this over a year ago.
To what caused this one can only speculate, it may have been crystal growth and shearing inside of the drying NC. Toppholzers accident sounds like something different
though, it happened before there was time for any type of crystal growth.
Anyway I never mixed HMTD with anything again.

hope you are ok S. Toppholzer, sounds like you were very unlucky m8.
this makes me even more cautious of making my first HTMD.
hope you get well soon.
Ruffryder August 18th, 2002, 12:20 AM

Toppholzer, I'm truely sorry to hear about your accident. It's never a good thing to hear of another fellow pyrotechnician's misfortune. My heart goes out to you. Hope you heal
up well, and get through the legalities.
My only offer is that possibly the polstyrene had some form of acidic reaction from the NC, like what others have said.
Catchya, Tim
vulture August 18th, 2002, 04:45 PM

How could polystyrene cause an acidic side reaction?
Please explain, as I see no way how dissolving polystyrene in acetone can set free acid.
Ping pong ball NC is not quality controlled as gunpowder NC, therefore it could be acidic. Also, this is usually cellulosedinitrate, which has a negative OB and thus acts as a
reducer. Since peroxides are strong oxidizers...
Well, good to hear you are OK. Let's hope the cops won't bust your ass.
[ August 18, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
Pu239 Stuchtiger August 19th, 2002, 12:41 AM

I'm sorry to hear about your accident. :(
I've had a pyrotechnic accident before, back in my kewl days... a mixture of powdered "Solidox" (mostly sodium chlorate with a small amount of MnO2) and powdered sugar
spontaneously ignited while my face was only about two feet away. I was clueless then about mass, but I'm estimating it was around 100g. I had pretty severe 2nd degree
burns. A miracle that I didn't have any vision damage (I have 20/3 vision, so I really would be upset if my eyes were damaged). Amazingly, there was no scarring.
I had that accident with H2SO4 spraying in my eyes that I shared about in the "Accidents and Legal Incidents" thread.
That's it for stuff that caused serious personal injury. Of course, I've burned the nerves dead in my fingertips from touching hot stuff (I don't even care anymore when I burn
my fingertips). I have a few small picric acid stains on my shoes. It's inevitable, being a mad scientist.
I'm just glad I didn't have an accident that caused serious permanent injury. That really sucks to have that happen, Toppholzer. :(
My opinion is that primary explosives should never be mixed with anything. They're just too sensitive for people without extensive experience with chemistry to be blindly
mixing and testing. I knew that someday something like this would happen - at least it hasn't happened with those cursed "APAN" mixtures yet. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I'm hypothesizing that as the acetone evaporated, the plastic, being well-mixed with the HMTD, began to solidify in a matrix-like form. As it continued to solidify, it contracted,
compressing entangled HMTD; which caused detonation.
I hope that everyone can learn from this accident. Let's not forget about this incident, so we don't have more accidents as severe, or worse than, this one.
Madog555 August 19th, 2002, 12:44 PM

damn, man that realy sucks. i have heard of HMTD/NC mixes spontaniously detonateing before. i hope this prevents more accidents.
i have never had a bad accident. once i was holding a small comercial firecracker that had a homeade greande ignition system on it. all of a sudden it started to fizz and
smoke. so i threw it up the stairs and it exploded about a foot of the ground. luckily only my dad was home so i didnt get in trouble. if my mom was home there would have
been hell.
another time i had just got nice Al and KClO4 from pyrotek so i made flash. i had several grams on a piece of newspaper. i lit a little to test it and a spark whent from it to the
big pile. it made a TON of smoke. luckily i wasnt hurt. i got in trouble for filling half the house with smoke.
i have burned my self plenty of times. fuse sometimes shoots a jet of flame out and burns you.
i have destroyed plenty of pairs of pants and shirts from acid and H2O2 bkleeching. my sneakers have TNP stains on them as well. i have stained my skin a couple times too. i
used to always stain my skin with KMnO4 too, that was a pain.
in my early days i used to set off stuff in the winter that had KMnO4 in it and the unused oxidiser would stain the snow purple! i used to have to melt or bury all that snow to
avoid getting caught. what a pain in the ass.
Kdogg August 20th, 2002, 01:18 AM

I too remember the purple snow days, if you can wait overnight it will just turn to dirty looking non-suspicious snow.
A-BOMB August 20th, 2002, 10:26 AM

Ah the purple snow I wondered if that would ever come up again.
Madog555 August 21st, 2002, 01:59 AM

i noticed that it fades overnight into inconspicuous snow. but back then my parrents didnt know and i was afaid they would see it when they got home so i had to cover up.
Pu239 Stuchtiger August 21st, 2002, 09:59 PM

*decides to further derail thread*
Snow becomes an interesting color when a dense fog of NO2 resides over it.
kingspaz August 22nd, 2002, 04:47 PM

thats enough of the snow thing now i think :)
time to get this thing back on topic. anyone got anymore suggestions as to what happend?
Boomer January 22nd, 2004, 12:53 PM

I know this comes late, but I had a similar thing happen to me. A small ball of plastique detonated while I was CAREFULLY (!) mixing it on a piece of hard wood (so no
shrapnel) with a long tool. It was made of a sub-gram amount of MHN, plasticised with MNT and sensitised (it should make a mouldable case-less cap) with a little HMTD. The
applied pressure and friction were definitely not enough to set the HMTD off, especially since it was kind of lubricated by the rest of the soft mass. I think I mentioned this in
the MHN thread already, but I posted a more detailed story here because I start to think that HMTD can spontaneously detonate if mixed with something containing nitro-
groups or nitro-ester-groups. Maybe the amine-groups react first, breaking down the molecule. If it was caused by the shrinking, it would be worse with AP putty. And: my
stuff was still soft.
That time ago nothing happened except ringing ears. It was this month that I lost 2 fingers (see worst accident threat in the WC). People, lets forget peroxides and
fuses, or has anyone here ever heard of an accident with electric ignition + enough wire length?
Bert January 22nd, 2004, 01:07 PM

You can have accidents with electricaly fired ignition too- Different set of problems though. Forgetting the chargeing terminals on your pager are hot, let the wires brush against
them while carrying the det- Unshunt the leads while walking under high tension wires- Unroll the blasting wire from the reel AFTER connecting the cap to it- Carry a charge
capped on a dry day with the wires trailing on the ground- And, of course, hooking up a cap to an allready energized wire. Lots more, these are just ones I personaly have
seen/heard the results of. Handling explosives in any form is never risk free.
One moments inattention to EVERY detail can mean your life will change forever.
Thermite January 23rd, 2004, 08:48 PM

I had an accident while i was making HMTD. I mixed the HP with the Hexa first, and then i added the HCL, taking care of the temperature by putting the solution into an ice
bath. Later i sealed the solution and i put it in a refrigerator. Sudenly i smelled HCL, so i opened the refrigerator and it was full of a thick white cloud of what i suppose were H
and Cl fumes...i'm wondering where did i make a mistake?... maybe the solution wasn't cold enough when i put it in the refrigerator?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Golden flash?
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vulture February 28th, 2002, 07:03 AM

I m a d e s o m e KMnO4/Al/S flash (yes i know it's unstable and dangerous, thank you!) and added isopropyl alcohol twice to
prevent dust form ation.
All the alcohol has evaporated now and i'm looking at little gold colored and shining chunks of flash.
It re ally looks like gold! :)
C o u l d t h i s b e a l u m i n i u m (poly?)sulfide?
It still perform s very good.
NoltaiR February 28th, 2002, 07:50 AM

W ell som ehow I doubt that just isopryl alcohol m a d e a l u m inum sulfide out of alum inum and sulfur without a lot of heat
needing to be added. But this would be the first time I have eve r heard of flash in chunks! (on purpose anyways.. m o s t p e o p l e
usually sift it through a screen to m ake it into granules).
But all the same it so unds interesting.. I may have to m a k e a b a t c h m yself to ex periment with. ;)
vulture March 2nd, 2 002, 11:18 PM

The explanation is very sim ple:
I s o p r o p y l g e t s o x i d i z e d t o a c e t o n e a n d t h e K M n O 4 t o M n O 2 . T h e b r o w n M n O 2 layer that forms over the silver Al ma k e s t h i s
stuf look like gold or FeS in certain light conditions.
This thread can be closed as it's useless now.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Al
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krimmie March 17th, 2002, 08:49 AM

What's up people....I have what is between a question and an observation! All comments are welcome. I have purchase two separate pounds of Al from a major internet
supply house;
-Indian Blackhead 8 micron flake; this stuff is great, mixes easily with KCLO4 and burns super fast.
-Al flake ,German -400 mesh; the problem with this Al is that it is so 'fluffy'.....it is hard to get a homogeneous mixture with the KCLO4. It wants to float on top of the
perchlorate! I had thought I got a good mixture and tested it....one pile went poof(that's good), the other pile(from the same container) burned like a sparkler.
BTW, I use the diaper method to mix.
Besides the obvious mixing problem....anyone have any comments? :confused:
[ March 17, 2002, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: krimmie ]
CyclonitePyro March 17th, 2002, 12:02 PM

As long as you're using KCLO4, and no sulfer or chlorate, it should be about as stable as flash gets. I currently use KCLO4 and german dark 400mesh, and I just put it inside a
plastic container and shake... not vigerously but enough to get it thoroughly mixed. I never had an accident with it.
[ March 17, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: CyclonitePyro ]
krimmie March 17th, 2002, 12:57 PM

Thanks, the sensitivity is what I was worried about. I'll try and mix with a "little" more vigor....I was being overly cautious I guess.

Well i wouldnt shake it while holding it in my hand. Diaper mix it for longer. Do it for 15 minutes or so while watching tv to get a real intimate mix.
vulture March 18th, 2002, 01:53 PM

Add acetone to it until you have a paste. You'll get little chunks of flash which can be used as stars or be crushed (with some caution) to be used in a powder application.
I've tried this with KMnO4/Al/S flash and it was more powerful than the dry mixed version.
I would advise NOT to use isopropyl alcohol because it will get oxidized to acetone by strong oxidizers.
This is not dangerous, but it will consume oxidizer.
About safety, i've been fooling around alot with KMnO4/Al/S which is insanely dangerous according to some people and had no accidents.
To put it straight, if KMnO4/Al/S is a shitty `82 toyota, then KClO4/Al is a 2002 fancy mercedes. Got it?

I too have had no problems with KMnO4/Al/S....but I used 400 mesh Al with that mixture. With the KClO4 I have used 8 micron Al. There is a huge difference in the end
product, depending on the size of the Al. I think 400 mesh is equivalent to 37 micron. Does a flash compound get more sensitive with finer Al? Thanks for the info.

It gets faster for sure when finer Al.
More sensitive depends on how well it is mixed.
Very fine well mixed will be more sensitive, but because of it being finer it will mix worse. As a result there will be over/underoxidized portions, which are less sensitive.
Sparky March 19th, 2002, 05:33 PM

Since you say the aluminum is to low density to mix with the pechlorate properly, maybe you could add some Cab-O-Sil to the perchlorate before mixing to make it more
similar to the aluminum. This is fumed SiO2 used to make pyrotechnic compositions more free running and "fluffy".
One way some people like to mix flash is to tape a plastic static resistant container onto the end of a long stick, then hold it out around a corner and shake it. This method was
suggested in rec.pyrotechnics (they are almost constantly talking about flash).
Since you didn't know that finer aluminum makes faster flash, I will also point out that finer perchlorate makes it faster too.
Pu239 Stuchtiger March 19th, 2002, 09:54 PM

I would abandon the KMnO4 / Al / S compositions immediately. The dice won't roll in your favor forever.
vulture March 20th, 2002, 09:05 AM

Look, i'm fucking sick of this! Everybody keeps telling me KMnO4 and sulfur are extremely dangerous to handle and can go off spontaneously. Mostly these are people who
have made and handled AP... :rolleyes:
I have made 80g of KMnO4/Al/S flash which i stored for almost a month. I can tell you it's a bitch to set off properly, if you want it to deflagrate all at once you have to ad a
significant amount of BP.
It is true KMnO4 loses it's oxygen at low temperature, but if the burning temp. of Al or S isn't reached it won't do squat!
Now unless you've got any credible SCIENTIFIC explanation for it being so freakin' dangerous i might believe you.

Extremely minute quantities of sulfur can be oxidized to sulfur trioxide by the potassium permanganate.
SO3 + 2KMnO4 --> Mn2O7 + K2SO4
Formation of Mn2O7 results in spontaneous ignition. The above reactions are the same reason that KClO3 / S compositions are usually avoided. The chances of spontaneous
ignition are not that high, but eventually your luck will run out if you never stop playing with those compositions.

I think the problem is that some people say that KMnO4 flash is dangerous because it is sensitive, i.e heat/shock/friction/static etc, not that it can react and spontaneoudly
ignite.
Leaving out the sulphur might give an acceptably stable flash.
rikkitikkitavi March 20th, 2002, 04:04 PM

why is the KMnO4/al/S not sensitive? could be of a million reasons...
like crystal size, purity, relative humidity , colour of your underwear or whatever...
if the general statement is that it is very sensitive, there is a reason for it, whatever once personal experience is. to believe elsewise is step one in the application for the
Darwin awards...
anyway, mixing sulfur with strong oxidizer is a sure way to get sensitive mixtures when they absorb moisture from the air.
/rickard

Pu239, that sounds like a reasonable explanation, only it would take a lot of time until a significant amount of SO3 got produced under the influence of moisture. I usually seal
those compositions and rinse them with acetone frequently to prevent that.
Anyways S is a lot cheaper then Al and it doesn't make a real difference in performance.
If anybody wants to save me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> give me a nice ratio for KMnO4/Al/C
[ March 20, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]

It actually would require very little SO3 to form... 0.0001 grams of SO3 being produced would probably be enough to cause spontaneous ignition. I would replace the sulfur with
carbon, just to increase safety. Substitute every 8g sulfur with 3g carbon. Moisture is not necessary for my previously stated explanation of why KMnO4 / Al / S compositions
are so dangerous; moisture does increase the danger though.

I think I'll try that with the C...KMnO4 is much cheaper for me to get hold of. I've been only making and testing small batches at a time(15g), and storage is not a good idea in
the humid environment that I live in. I have to keep the KClO4/KMnO4 and Al in the air-conditioned house(separately-of course) because of the heat outside. Thanks for the
imput.
SATANIC March 20th, 2002, 10:18 PM

well, i have only ever tried KMnO4 / S, with a little very coarse Al, and took a small amount of BP on the side to ignite it. Would't light with a lighter at all. :( )
It did however ignite more easily when crushed between concrete and a brick.
But i really replied here to ask you not to have a go at my 82' Toyota, i have a corolla from that year. :D
Rhadon April 5th, 2002, 04:44 PM

If you really aim to light KMnO4 / S / Al with a lighter you'll do best by forming the powder to a 'pyramide'. Add some more sulfur onto the top of it and expose it to the fire
until it ignites - this can take some time, especially if your 'pyramide' is very small.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > DDNP procedure
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stanfield August 13th, 2001, 06:55 AM

I was trying to make DDNP but, there are some problems...
1. I dissolved 10g of NaOH in 100 mL of H2O. Easy http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
2.I added 10g of sulfur then I heated the solution during 6-7 min at 85-90C (until "it gently boil") ==> the solution became brown red but there is an excess of sulfur on the
top of the solution and, after cooling, I can see some powder (sulfur ?) low in the beaker, is it normal ? Do I need to heat again and again the solution to dissolve all the sulfur
?
3. I made the solution of NaOH, picric acid and water. Easy http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
4. In this step, I must add the solution I heated (sodium sulfide ?) in 5 times... ok, but, the sodium sulfide must be hot or cool ? (room temp.)
thanx to answer all my questions...
Tony Montana August 13th, 2001, 09:43 PM

If I understand your post correctly, you have two different solutions: 1'st=Picric acid/Sodium hydroxide/Water and the 2'nd=Sulfur/Sodium hydroxide/Water.
Alright, your on the right track!
The solution of Sodium hydroxide/Water/Sulfur you heated, you are meant to gently heat until until solution turns dark red. Then allow to cool to room temperature. Then
slowly stir the red water/sulfur/sodium hydroxide mixture into the water/picric acid/sodium hydroxide mixture. Let this new mixture stand (at room temperature) for 30
minutes, stirring every 5 minutes. Filter this mixture through filter paper, reddish crystals will collect on the paper. Keep the crystals and discard the liquid. Then the crystals are
dissolved in a pre-determined amount of boiling water. The mixture is filtered, but this time the liquid is kept and the filtrate is discarded.
Hopefully you know the rest Stanfield, if not just let me know and ill post the whole recipe!

thanx but why there is an excess of sulfur, even after heating ?
see ya !
Mr Cool August 14th, 2001, 12:07 PM

The ratio of Na:S is wrong if the product formed is Na2S. You have too much sulphur, so just filter the solution and then use it. You have 0.25 moles of sodium and 0.3125
moles of sulphur, whereas you should have 0.25 moles of sodium (10 grams of NaOH) for every 0.125 moles of sulphur (4 grams of sulphur).
I haven't worked out how much sodium picrate you'd need when using 10g of NaOH and 4g of sulphur, I will do if you want.

If you have some time, work on it, it will be very nice but the "recipe" says 10g/10g !
see ya !

When using 10 grams of NaOH and 4 grams of S (or 10 grams of Na2S), you'll need 31.4 grams of C6H2(NO2)3ONa. That can be made from 28.6 grams of TNP and 5 grams
of NaOH. This is, of course, assuming 100% reaction at every stage. This will make 24.9 grams of picramic acid. This will need to be reacted with 10.6 grams of KNO2 or 8.6
grams of NaNO2 to make 26.3 grams of DDNP.
Actually, I've just thought: the reaction for the Na2S must be (I think) 4NaOH + 3S --> 2Na2S + 2H2O + SO2. So in order to get the 10 grams of Na2S needed in the reaction
above, you'd need 10 grams of NaOH and 6 grams of sulphur, not 4 grams.
How does that compare with the ratios in your "recipe"?
stanfield August 15th, 2001, 06:32 PM

I saw the "recipe" in the Kitchen Improvised Blasting Cap, next, I posted a topic on the Forum and one guy (I can't remember, do a search...) said he suceed making DDNP
with 10g/10g
here is his topic :
Ok guys I'm back, I just had to get a few explosives precursors from the local grocery before they closed up shop at 9pm. Will append the results to this post...
OK I wiped the beaker completely dry... At first with an ordinary towel, then with a soft paper towel. Then I placed it in the oven for 10 minutes to drive off the remaining
moisture, the usual procedure in every recipe Then 3ml of water were carefully measured out into the beaker... I added 7.5g sulphur and 7.5g NaOH. There was no reaction. I
put it on the hotplate. Soon I realised that there is no way this is gonna work. All of the NaOH dissolved, and some sulphur too, the solution indeed turned yellow-red (which I
assume to be Na2S and Na2S4), some yellow-green oily liquid formed on the top of the mixture, which I assume to be molten sulphur. But, on cooling (which they suggest)
the sulphur solidifies, so it's neither dissolved nor reacted. Some S remains unreacted. The red solution started boiling and smelling like hell, I fear it's decomposing. OK so tell
me (with a straight face) how many of you guys have actually attempted DDNP according to the Tim Lewis' recipe...
Now adding 297ml H2O. At first solution turned yellow-green. After a while the red stuff started dissolving. I stirred it, solution turned orange. Small bubbles formed on the
sulphur. Now I am cracking up the solidified sulphur, it still takes ages to dissolve it... After some time solution is about the color of tea. Now there are huge bubbles on the
sulphur pieces, and I can't crack them up, because they're flying around, funny... The volume of the solution was reduced to 270ml by boiling! Reduced the heat, now it's at
lowest heat. The 3ml experiment was a fuckup in that it turned the sulphur to big pieces, which don't dissolve. So when you do this, start with a fine sulphur powder. Solution is
brown, 250ml. After some more ages it starts turning red. Refilled to 320ml. Finally, it all dissolved, by the time it was boiled down to 120ml. Solution is reddish brown, but
stains paper in yellow-green. Some fine insoluble residue appears in the liquid, but I assume this to be an impurity from the sulphur.
The 100ml batch took a lot of time too, I haven't crushed it properly, but finally it dissolved, some residue appears - the amount is negligible, but it's a bit coarser than in the
previous batch. After cooling nothing precipitates, so 100ml should be OK.
10fingers suggested the Lewis formula is correct so I tried the controversial stuff again... Trying with 1ml, 2x 2.5g. Upon addition of the NaOH to the 1ml water there is a
violent reaction and heating, some of the NaOH cakes. Put it on the hotplate. The 1ml water is quickly boiled away, it's difficult to keep replacing it so that the volume is
constant. When heated, the mixture is brick red. Then it starts to fizzle, decompose and gives off some irritant gas (feels kinda like tear gas). After cooling it forms the sulphur
lumps same as before, color is reddish brown. I cycled through this 3 times, and allowed to cool. It definitely doesn't form a solution, but rather a thick mass. So my conclusion
is: This way it is difficult to moderate the reaction, it gives off nasty fumes, cannot be poured out the reaction vessel, and does not behave the way it's described in the books
(I cannot imagine how this could be poured in three portions). I can't help it but I keep thinking the 3ml or 1ml formulas, must be wrong. And why would they use a 500ml
beaker?
The recipe: Crush 10g of sulphur to a fine powder. Into a 250ml beaker or jar place 100ml distilled water. Dissolve 10g NaOH in the water, stir to prevent caking. and keep
replacing what is being boiled away, until everything had dissolved. Solution should be a reddish brown color. This is a mixture of sodium sulfides in water. Let it cool down. If
an insoluble residue remains in the solution, pour in the sulphur powder and heat the mixture so that it gently boils. Stir occasionally , do not filter, it will be removed later in
the process. Into another 500ml beaker or jar put 90ml distilled water and 1.5g NaOH and stir until the lye had dissolved. Dissolve 12g of PA in the solution with stirring. Add
the cooled sodium sulfide solution in five portions, to the PA solution. Stir with a teflon rod while the liquid is being added. Again allow the solution mixture cool. Filter this
mixture through filter papers (coffee filter, paper towels). Small red particles will gather on the paper. Discard the liquid. Dissolve these red particles in 180 ml of boiling water.
Remove and filter this hot liquid through a filter paper (coffee filter, paper towels). Discard the particles left on the paper and save the liquid.
Now if you just wanted to make %SUBJ% (why??? Silly idea! It's toxic!) just evaporate the liquid to dryness (do not overheat, dry in an oven with precise regulation at 150C,
or on an oil bath, do NOT exceed this temperature) and you should get red crystals of pure picramic acid. You should evaporate this and weigh it out anyway, at least for the
first time, to ascertain the yield of picramic acid. Theoretical yield is 11,26g.
10g of picramic acid is dissolved with strong stirring (or magnetic stirrer) in 120ml of 5% HCl in a 250ml beaker placed in an ice bath. 3.6g of NaNO2 is dissolved separately in
10ml water and added in one portion to the picramic acid solution, with stirring. Let the mixture stand for 20 minutes. The mixture will turn a brown color. Filter the brown
solution through a filter paper (paper towel, coffee filter). Wash the particles left on the paper with 60 ml of ice cold water. The DDNP is then purified by dissolving in the
smallest amount of acetone possible. The acetone should be preheated to 40-45C. With stirring this solution is slowly dumped into ice cold water, the precipitate is filtered and
allowed to dry. Leave a small amount of water for safety.
I will keep updating this recipe and will write a note here if anything changes. Recently I adjusted amounts so that amount of picramic acid matches second step. Now I found
out that the "second step" is virtually identical to Megalomania's procedure. Any input is welcome.
what do you think ?

if possible, post YOUR recipe...
see ya !

Sounds like you use too much sulphur and not enough water to me. I'll post more in the morning.

The way that works!
CHEMICALS REQUIRED:
Picric acid=3 units by weight(UBW)
Sulfur (powdered)=2.5 UBW
Sodium hydroxide=3 UBW
Potassium nitrate=1.8 UBW OR Sodium nitrate=1.8UBW
Sulfuric acid=2.5 UBW
Water
MANUFACTURE:
1. Pout 30 UBW (units by weight) of warm water into the first container.
2. Stir 0.5 UBW of sodium hydroxide into the water in the first container.
3. Stir 3 UBW of picric acid into the water/sodium hydroxide mixture. Set this mixture aside.
4.IN A NEW CONTAINER: Pour 1 UBW of of water into the second container.
5. Stir 2.5 UBW of powdered sulfur and 2.5 UBW of sodium hydroxide into the water.Stir this mixture for one minute.
6. Place the water/sulfur/sodium hydroxide mixture on the heat source. GENTLY heat the mixture until it turns a dark red color. Remove the mixture from the heat source and
allow it to cool to room temperature.
7. Slowly stir the red water/sulfur/sodium hydroxide mixture into the water/picric acid/sodium hydroxide mixture from step 3. Let this mixture stand for 30 minutes, stirring
every 5 minutes.
8. Filter this mixture through filter paper. Reddish crystals will collect on the paper. Keep the crystals and discard the liquid.
9. IN A NEW CONTAINER: Pour 60 UBW of water into a new container.
10. Heat water to a low boil, turn off heat.
11. Dissolve red crystals from step 8 in boiling water.
12. Filter the mixture through filter paper. This time, keep the liquid and discard the material that collects on the filter paper.
13. IN A NEW CONTAINER: Pour 6 UBW of water into the new container. Slowly stir 3 UBW of sulfuric acid into the water. This water/acid mixture will be referred to as diluted
sulfuric acid.
14. Stir ONE DROP at a time of the diluted sulfuric acid into the liquid (from step 12) until the liquid turns aa orange-brown color. Be sure to add the acid one drop at a time so
only the minimum amount necessary to change the liquids color is used. Let this mixture stand for 5 minutes.
15. Stir in an additional 2.5 UBW of diluted sulfuric acid into the above mixture. Let this mixture stand for 30 minutes.
16. IN A NEW CONTAINER: Pour 80 UBW of water into a new container. Stir 1.75 UBW of potassium nitrate into the water. Stir until potassium nitrate dissolves.
17. Stir potassium nitrate/water mixture into the mixture from step 15. NOTE: The crystals that settle out of this new mixture are DDNP. Handle with care.
18. Filter DDNP out of the mixture using filter paper.
19. The DDNP must now be dried. Hope you now how to do this, if not let us now and I will post a few good ways.

Thanx Tony Montana but what's this "unit by weight" (UBW) I'm french and here, we don't use this unit...
example :
for 5g of picric acid, I'll need 4.16 of sulfur right ??
To dry it, I've heard about and oil bath or in an oven (both at 150C)
Let's see the Mr Cool's Recipe now http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif !
see ya and thanx again for all !

Well I've never heard of nitrates being used, only nitrites. It's not a nitration remember, it's an azotisation.
I wouldn't dry it at above 100*C just to be extra safe but 150*C should be OK.
I'd use the same method as Tony, but by my calculations he has 5 times too much sulphur and 2.5 times too much NaOH. He's using the usual 1:1 ratio, which from what
you've told me doesn't work. I'm sure it would work though, becuase the excess sulphur is filtered out, and the fact that you have an excess of sodium sulphide means that
you won't be wasting any of your TNP.
After you filter it out, you should recrystalise it from acetone.

two questions :
- what about Unit By weight ? (is my calculation right ?)
- couls you tell me more about recrystalisation from acetone (especially measurement (ratio DDNP : Acetone ...)
thanx for all !
Tony Montana August 17th, 2001, 06:05 AM

Units by weight means it is measured by weight instead of volume. The easiest way to go about figuring this out is to just multiply all by ten for example 5 units by weight
picric acid and 2 units by wieght water: is easily worked out to 50grams picric acid and 20 grams of water.
Picric acid=3 units by weight(UBW)
This from above:
Sulfur (powdered)=2.5 UBW
Sodium hydroxide=3 UBW
Potassium nitrate=1.8 UBW OR Sodium nitrate=1.8UBW
Sulfuric acid=2.5 UBW
Water
Is easily converted to:
Picric acid=30 grams or grains
Sulfur (powdered)=25 grams or grains
Sodium hydroxide=30 grams or grains
Potassium nitrate=18 grams or grains OR Sodium nitrate=18 grams or grains
Sulfuric acid=25 grams or grains
Water
It is basically the ratio (by weight) of the ingredients.
DRYING FINISHED CRYSTALS:
1'st method: Using a hot water bath. Place a small amount of finished product in a suitable container. Fill a pan with hot (90* C/194*F) water and then place the container in
the pan. Refill the pan with hot water as it cools.
2'nd method: Using an oven, first preheat the oven to 100* C(212* F). Then turn the oven off and wait 10 minutes. Place a small amount of finished product in a suitable
container. Place the container into the oven. Let the material sit in the oven until either it is completely dry or the oven cools below 50* C(122* F). If the oven has cooled but
the material is not dry, take the material out of the oven and reheat the oven to 100* C. Again turn it off and wait 10 minutes before placing back in the oven. Reapeat this
process untill material is completely dry. Also such things as DDNP should not be dried in direct sunlight.
[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited August 17, 2001).]

You should take into account the difference in relative molecular mass between NaNO2 and KNO2. Otherwise some will be wasted and you will therefore have an inefficient
reaction. The same number of UBW for each will not work as well as if adjust them.
I don't have exact measurements for the recrystalisation, but just heat the acetone to 50*C and dissolve in as much DDNP as you can (maybe 10g per 100mL of acetone).
Filter it if necessary, and dump it into 3 times it's volume of cold water to precipitate the DDNP.

thanx for acetone...
but I have sodium nitrite, what will it change here ? What will be the new mass of NaNO2 ?
see ya !

I've actually just looked at the ratios again and they are quite similar, so don't bother adjusting them. When using 3 UBW of TNP, you'll need about 1.3 UBW of KNO2 or 1.1
UBW of NaNO2. That is allowing for a slight excess.

thanx for all, I will try these recipes when I will receive more picric acid. My reseller, sell 25$ for 250 g of picric acid, is the price good ?
see ya !

Yeah, that's pretty good. I wish I could just buy it!

www.jeulin.fr (http://www.jeulin.fr) => (very good) french industry but I think they sell all over the world... try to see on the web page...
they sell picric acid with 40% water to delete the explosive danger
see ya !
Ezikiel August 18th, 2001, 11:04 PM

I am still confused.
From what I know NaNO2 or KNO2 (only Nitrites) can be used.
So my question is will Nitrates work too ?
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"

never heard this...
Lagen August 19th, 2001, 07:50 AM

Nitrates cannot be used. As Mr Cool said, it's a diazotisation reaction. BTW have a look at the new topic (http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000486.html) in the
HE section on synthesis of picramic acid. The guy raises some good questions. I hope someone will clear up the "sodium sulfide" thing once for all.
[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 19, 2001).]

Thanks for that link, I'll have a look.
It doesn't matter whether it's Na2S, NaHS or Na4S2 - you use the same amount of sulphur for each to reduce the same amount of TNP, e.g. 31g of sodium picrate will need 6
grams of sulphur in the sulphide. Na2S and Na4S2 both need 10 grams of NaOH when using 6 grams of sulphur, NaHS needs 5 grams of NaOH but if you use 10 grams then if
the NaHS is made then you'll just have an excess of NaOH, which won't matter. And if one of the other sulphides is made, then you'll have a complete reaction.
You need nitrites.

Shit, the book I was quoting out of:
FMX The revised black book, by William Wallace.
ISBN=0-87364-853-6 by paladin press.
Does have a mistake in it, page 46 DDNP it states to use NaNO3 or KNO3! After cross refenrencing, it is wrong -NO3 ion is not needed -NO2 is!
stanfield August 22nd, 2001, 12:58 PM

What about picramic acid ?
is it dangerous ? explosive ?
could you tell me more about this one especially safety...
thanx...
Mr Cool August 22nd, 2001, 05:05 PM

I can't find much info on toxicity or exact explosive characteristics, sorry.
Treat it like TNP - explosive and toxic.
EventHorizon August 22nd, 2001, 06:19 PM

Merck only states that it has toxic symptoms similar to 2,4-dinitrophenol, which are:
LD 50 orally in rats: 30 mg/kg (Schafer) for 2,4-dnp
and
Caution: Highly toxic material. Readily ab sorbed through intact skin. Vapors absorbed through respiratory tract. Produces marked increase in metabolism and temp, profuse
sweating, nausea, vomiting, collapse, death. May cause dermatitis, cataracts, wt loss, granulocytopenia, polyneuropathy, exfoliative dermatitis, Clinical Toxicology of
Commercial Products, R. E. Gosselin et al., Eds. (Williams and Wilkins, Baltimore, 4th ed., 1976) Section III, pp 134-137
probably not what you are looking for but maybe it will give an idea.
stanfield August 23rd, 2001, 06:11 AM

thanx,
I especialy wanted to know if this acid is explosive...
see ya !
PHILOU Zrealone September 14th, 2001, 10:36 AM

Basically a diazotation is an organic reaction between a primary amine and nitrous acid!Thus noway it works with nitrate salts what produces nitric acid...HONO is not HONO2
even if they seem quite similar (a O can make the difference in chemistry just as in a ones person name!).
So:
R-NH2 + HO-N=O --> R-NH3O-N=O --> H2O + R-N=N-OH
R-N=N-OH + HCl --> R-N=N-Cl (diazonium chloride salt)
R-N=N-OH -25C-> R-OH + N2
(that's why you get alcools from non aromatic amines spontaneously and why you may get phenol from aromatic amines).
In the DDNP the acid comes from the nearby neightbourg OH and thus you create a ring closure R-OH + HO-N=N-R--> R-O-N=N-R
As a resume:
HOC6H2(NO2)3 -reducer-> HOC6H2(NO2)2NH2
HOC6H2(NO2)2NH2 + HONO --> HOC6H2(NO2)2N=NOH
HOC6H2(NO2)2N=NOH --> H2O + C6H2(NO2)2N=NO
------------------

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Mercury fulm i n a t e q u e s t i o n
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View Full Version : Mercury fulminate question

W h e n m a k i n g m ercury fulm i n a t e , o n e p o u r s H N O 3 i n t o a b e a k e r , t h e n H g a n d t h e n y o u h a v e t o p o u r e t h a n o l i n t o s o l u t i o n t o
start reaction( I have obviously sim pliyfied the procedure som ewhat). My question before I waste Hg and HNO 3 is, can I use
m ethylated spirits instead of ethanol???????
P l a n ning on doing it anyway soon, so any replies m ore than welcome!
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y T o n y M o n t a na (edited August 13, 2001).]

Shouldnt this be in High Explo sives?
shooter3 August 13th, 2001, 11:02 PM

Tony I tried that a long time ago. After quite a few tries I desided it didn't work. Icould have been doing so mething wrong, but
I don't think so. With one or two exceptions the ethanol always worked. Mark this is in the right place. For some strange
reason prim a r i e s a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e h e r e .
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y s h o o t e r 3 ( e dited August 13, 2001).]
Hex August 14th, 2001, 05:23 AM

On the face of it, I ca n't see why it shouldn't work. None of the reaction schem e in Urbanski appears likely to be affected by
a n y o f t h e c o m m on a dulterants in m eths. It m ight be worth ordering som e 95% ethanol which is denatured with ether only -
it's unrestricted (in the UK, anyway) an d n o t t o o e x p e n s i v e .

H e x , a r e y o u a Brit?
Methylated spirits is comm only 90% EtO H, 5% MeOH and 5% wa ter. I can't see why this wouldn't work.
You are aware that you let the m ercury dissolve totally BEFORE adding the alcohol, aren't you? It wasn't clear from your post.
I have to get m yself the U r b a n s k i b o o k s !
deezs August 14th, 2001, 01:41 PM

I m a d e s o m e mercury fulminate yesterday. Here's the story:
I dissolved a bout 6 g HgO in 40 ml 65% HNO3. It dissolved fast, but it wasn't so hot. (I have hom Hg metal, but using HgO
instead of it, you can avoid NOx fum e s . ) A d d e d 5 0 m l denaturated alcohol (ethanol with p iridin). There was no reaction.
Nothing, till I heated it on a hotplate. Then it bubbled som ewhat, but the vigrous reaction started just after a few minutes. It
was like a sm o k e b o m b ! ( u s e p u r e e t h a n o l , i f y o u h a v e , d e n a t u r a t e d a l c o h o l h a s a b a d s m all) My bakers were full up with
other stuff, so I used a 250 m l erlenm eyer flask. I shouldn't have. The liquid foam ed so badly, that it came out from the
flask, and dried on the wall of the flask. Nice yellow crystals, but I couldn't remem b e r t h e t e m p . o f d e c o m p o s i t i o n o f H g -
fulm inate, so I wiped the flask with a wet cloth. After it cooled down, I added water, and washed it 5 times, till neutral. It
became grey slowly. Than my fam ily arrived, so I had to dig the stuff in the garden. I'm just waitin g to use it. Perhaps I will set
off some picric acid with it.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because th ere is a good pro verb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from th e nearer hill."
PHILOU Zrealone August 30th, 2001, 07:30 AM

Doesn't it occure to you that m a y b e t h e m e t a l i c H g w a s n e e d e d / a s t h e N O x f u m e s t o s t a r t t h e r e a c t i o n ?
Also the presence of CH3-O H has to be avoided as m uch as possible!
I once did the MF with succes using pharmacy ethanol I did 10g and the beaker was really hot and fum i n g w h i t e s m o k e s
everywhere...The reaction did start im ediatelly but once started for sure go out with this otherwise you will h ave strong acrid
s m e ll of acetaldehyde, form a l d e h y d e , e t h a n o l . T h e u s e o f m e d i u m concentration HNO3 and excess alcool is advised to lower
the reaction temp (water evap oration takes the h e a t s o d o e s e t h a n o l . . . t h u s k e e p i n g t h e t e m p lower than the decom position
temp of MF).
I used also once self distillate d alcool from fruitjuice ferm entation with yeast and it succed ed too.
But once I used the com m ercial blue e thanol (denaturated) and the reaction started norm ally but I ended with a yellow
precipitate not explosive at all!
------------------
" L i f e t h a t d e a d l y d i s e a s e s e x u a l l y t r a n s m itted".
" C h e m istry is all what stinks a nd explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
tvs17 S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 12:35 PM

Should an solution of Hg(NO3)2 in 70% HNO3 also work ? Since I have no m ercury but do have 250 g of Hg(NO3)2.
I tried this by adding a stochiochemica l amount of Hg(NO3)2 in HNO 3. Then slowly adding the 96% EtOH to the solution. It
didn 't warm up really or any other things.
After reading this thread I will try to slowly heat up a sm all am o u n t o f t h e s o l u t i o n I m a d e a n d s e e what happens!
tvs17 S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2001, 09:06 AM

After standing a few days there is a sm all layer of colorless cryta ls formed on the bottom. Some is really crystal but some
look s like the thin layer you also get when you cool down heated m ilk(don't know how you call that).
W hen holding some crystals with a match they defraglate. When put in several layers of Al-foil if pufs, but not detonates. It
d o e s g e n e r a t e q u i t e a l o t s m oke when puffing. Not very healthy to inhale I guess.
Should this be the fulminate? I will try som e more blasting tests later.
EventHorizon S e p t e m b e r 1 1th, 2001, 08:58 PM

T h e e t - O H s h o u l d b e w a r m e d b e f o r e a d d i n g t o t h e H g / H N O 3 s o l u t i o n a n d a d d e d a l l a t o n c e . I t s s e e m s t o n e e d a m inor
a m ount of heat to kick off the reaction. Putting the et-OH in the m icrowave for 7s prior to addition has always worked for 'a
friend', but you don't want to heat up the alcohol so its hot. Do it in a 1L+ beaker for 5-6g's of Hg. If you can get grain alcohol,
thats better, 190 proof should work wonderfully, http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/wink.gif.
Also, those who have access to methylated spirits. I was goofing one day with my vacuum dessicator and noticed so m e t h i n g .
W hen placing a jar of denatured alcohol, ~100m l, in the dessicator and pulling a 28" vacuum (IIRC ~50torr) it would boil for a
few m inutes then cease, I surm ised that it was boiling off the methylnol and leaving the e thanol and water. Might be worth a
try.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y E v e n t H o r i z o n (edited Septem ber 11, 2001).]

W ell, in principle the Hg/HNO 3 solution everyone uses is the same as an (acidic) Hg(NO 3)2 solution, right? So why it doesn't
work with me ? I tried what you said, also to heat the whole reaction m ixture a little to get over that possible activation energ y.
But m aybe I have to try it another tim e, because when throwing mercury in the HNO3 you will also get a lot of heat that just
m a y b e e n o u g h t o s t a rt the reaction?
But--we'll try it another tim e anyway.

Yes!! It worked! I heated it a bit more strongly on a bunzenburn er and the reaction started after about 15 seconds!
W ell, good that this also has been cleared up again!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > getting Al the electrolytic way?
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View Full Version : getting Al the electrolytic way?
-A- August 15th, 2001, 10:15 PM

I didn't find this with the search. It can get a little boring sanding the aluminium, so I started searching for a better method. So I begin wondering if Al could be obtained using
electrolysis.
Let's see, if you dissolve Al foil in HCl, you get AlCL3, don't you?. Well I discarded this as AlCl3 is far too dangerous. So, using a safer salt, e.g. aluminium sulphate, is it possible
to get aluminum using electrolysis?.

Yes, it'll get you Al. You'll need to melt the salt at about 1000*C. Obviously you'll have to do the whole thing in an argon atmosphere so that the Al doesn't burn as it's made.
The power supply is simple - 12V at a few amps should work, so a car battery could be used. But when you've finished, you'll have a block of Al, which you'll still need to sand
down.
If you do it in water, you'll only get Al(OH)3.

If you have two Al electrodes and strike and arc between them under water you'll get fine Al powder.
-A- August 16th, 2001, 10:55 PM

Anthony, by striking an arc between them, you mean a current? (I am not a native english speaker).
But, I don't understand how I would be able to get aluminum powder that way... also, wouldn't the fine Al powder get oxidized under water?

The powder will be reacted and made useless by the water, I'm sure of it.
Edit: but maybe you could do it under oil?
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 17, 2001).]
Anthony August 18th, 2001, 12:33 AM

I've done this in a beaker using Al foil eletrodes (crumbled up), I was only using 12v so I couldn't produce an arc between them so I just stroked them together. It definitely
produced a powder.
I just used straight tap water, but boilign the water would remove all dissolved oxygen and things can't oxidise without oxygen!
By Arc I mean a continuous electrical spark that jumps a gap between two electrodes.
-A- August 18th, 2001, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Anthony:
I've done this in a beaker using Al foil eletrodes (crumbled up), I was only using 12v so I couldn't produce an arc between them so I just stroked them together. It definitely
produced a powder.
I just used straight tap water, but boilign the water would remove all dissolved oxygen and things can't oxidise without oxygen!
By Arc I mean a continuous electrical spark that jumps a gap between two electrodes. 
Mhhh, strange procedure, never heard of that before. I will give it a try. However, the part where you talk about removing dissolved oxygen from water... cant the Al get
oxidized just from the water?. It looks like I have a fault in my chemistry knowledge...
J August 18th, 2001, 07:50 AM

The water will decompose into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Perhaps the powder was Al2O3?
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view=l)

No oxygen needed to fuck things up:
2Al + 6H20 --> 2Al(OH)3 + 3H2
I'm afraid your powder was probably a hydroxide. But I can't see why it wouldn't work under an oil of some sort if it makes a powder.
-A- August 19th, 2001, 02:47 AM

This procedure is intriguing me. I will definitely give it a try, but not under water for sure.

also AlO3 will be produced because of electrolysis producing oxygen.
edit. sorry J didn't realise you said the same thing.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited August 19, 2001).]

The idea originally came from NBK2000 (IIRC)
I can't see I tried the procedure extensively (in fact I threw the "Al" away with the water as progress was very slow).
So it might have been something other than Al. But I know that steel stored under boiled water will not rust (one of the few text book experiments I remember from school).
So if the water does not decompose, why should the Al oxidise?
Lagen August 19th, 2001, 08:00 PM
I dare to say that the "striking an arc between aluminum electrodes under water" method works. This was the standard industrial method for making Al powder before the
advent of vacuum vaporisation. The powder thus obtained is called "colloidal aluminum". The aluminum will not completely decompose into Al(OH)3, just as an aluminum cup
doesn't decompose in water. There is a thin layer of aluminum hydroxide and oxide forming on the particles that prevents further oxidation. The thickness of the layer depends
on the speed of its formation. Under water a thin layer forms which is good. kingspaz: Electrolysis plays a minor role here, if there is a true arc!
Edit: Sorry kingspaz, I confused you with someone else!
To make it clearer. I don't advocate "getting Al the electrolytic way". Anyone that seriously believes he can get powdered Al by electrolysing AlCl3 in a water solution or by
AlCl3 + Mg (crapbook method) either is a moron or hasn't seen the electrochemical series. In the electrolysis the Al is formed as single atoms and these will be 100% reacted.
In the arc, however, small droplets (hence the name "colloidal") of molten aluminum form, the rest is obvious, this is physics, no chemistry or electrochemistry ...
firebreether August 20th, 2001, 02:08 AM

I would have thought that the Al would have been plated on the - electrode similar to electroplating gold onto jewelry

I just assumed that since the particles would probably be hot when they touched the water, and they're very small, that they'd be corroded so much that they'd become
useless.

Aluminum cannot be plated in water! Again, it's a matter of oxidation potentials! The only (at least a bit common) metals that can do the trick are: platinum, gold, silver,
mercury and copper.
Mr Cool: I admit I have not tried this. But it's not from my head, I've been told by others, that really know their stuff. So I think it's not complete BS. But I'm sure there will be
losses (smaller particles will surely oxidize, the resulting powder will contain particles of variable size ...). If the process gave a perfect product it would not have been
abandoned. If someone wanted to try it, making the arc is easy with minimal equipment, if you wish, I can post some instructions...
nbk2000 August 20th, 2001, 12:48 PM

I used the arc process for copper. It's important to use distilled water to prevent electrolysis.
If the aluminum is oxidized (very likely), one could take the ultrafine powder, place it in a class tube, start a flow of hy7drogen gas through the tube, then heat to redness to
reduced the oxide to the base metal. This is the process they originally used.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Hydrogen reducing Al2O3? Sounds unlikely to me.

I am sceptic on this, too. Aluminum replaces hydrogen in compounds, not the other way round. But for removing oxide layers from copper, it would work well.
-A- August 21st, 2001, 05:45 PM

First, I haven't said water is the only solvent you can use... If you make electrolysis under water is obvious the Al will get oxidized. That's why am asking of another method or
solvent for the electrolysis.
However, if the arc method works, why does it has to be made under water?. Can't you use another liquid that doesn't oxidize the Al?.

Think a bit!
2Al + 3H2O + heat or no if the metal has a high specific surface (or a very thin oxyd layer) --> Al2O3 + H2 + a lot of heat! Thermodynamicly and chemicaly reduction of
Al2O3 is not possible from H2!
Seems to me I have enough exposed in the past ways to make fine Al powder so do a little search.
Again and it is borring to write this for the 4th time for further explanation SEARCH IN THE PAST: Explosion of Al electrodes in cold inert gas like Ar or He or Ne (N2 might be
considered but produces a bit of AlN)...then slow introduction of cold air...the colder the thiner the oxyd layer...you end with very reactive Al powder (over 1000 mesh).
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > thermit bomb
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View Full Version : thermit bomb
ogi August 17th, 2001, 09:26 AM

ok gentleman/hers
ive been busy with a concept of the good old thermit bomb ive got a ready supply of thermit and my goal w as a bang with 3000degC shrapnel but all that happenend was that i
melted my container which was 2 inch gal pipe
i epdated to 4 inch gal pipe w ith 3/4 inch load in the middle and surrounded w ith
concrete still no bang
how do you make an actual thermite bomb as is used in the army
sory but it was capped with screw on caps which i forgot to mention
i w ant this thing to throw my hot load at least 20 meters
thought of using he/le but both would burn early

any ideas??

you could make a batch of very fine thermite which w ill burn much fatser than usual. put a little of this in a plastic bag then put it in you container. fill the rest of the container
with ordinary thermite. the fast stuff should explode the container and ignite the slow stuff. not sure if it would work but it may be possible. not sure w hether thermite produces
much gas though. i think it would only make a small amount of fine AlO3. addition of NH4NO3 w ould increase the gas volume.
BrAiNFeVeR August 17th, 2001, 11:17 AM

If you surround the explosive charge w ith thermite, you'd be pretty sure of a BANG ...
You can try to run your fuse trough the termite, so that ignites a second or so earlier then the HE (I don't think HE is able to ignite Thermite, it w ould just blow it away ...
someone correct me if I'm wrong)
------------------

3CuO + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3Cu
This burns fast. Do use pure, fine chemicals though. PbO w orks too, but the flame isn't as pretty http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif. Not much gas, but it
should work.
Have you ever seen those crackling sparklers? They use Mg and PbO, made into little grains. They explode w ith a sharp "crack", and there's no confinement for them.
CragHack August 17th, 2001, 02:28 PM

kingspaz might be on to something w hen he mentioned the addition of NH4NO3 to the lot. NH4NO3 explosivly decomposes at 300 degrees celcius. (as in detonates) i w ould like
to sight the happenings in texas city, texas like 50 years ago. A boat called the "grand camp" was loaded with NH4NO3 and caught on fire. when it had time to heat up, the
NH4NO3 w ent boom. (just as a measure of power) the 2 ton anchor on the boat detached, flew 2 miles and got embeded in the ground. now i don't know how much NH4NO3
was on the boat, tons i believe but...
anyway, the temp of the thermite should ignite the NH4NO3 and make it explode and then send the rest of the thermite flying.
------------------
Bitter August 17th, 2001, 02:33 PM

Wasn't there a topic on detonating ANFO with thermite a few months ago ? I think AN be used as the HE because AN explodes if you heat it too much. I bet surrounding a
charge of AN with thermite would work, providing all of the thermite is burning at the time of detonation.

Fill a plastic container with thermite, and surround it w ith candles. The burning thermite evaporates and lightes the paraffine very fast. It is used as firebomb.
------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
BoB- August 17th, 2001, 06:02 PM

"i w ant this thing to throw my hot load at least 20 meters"
I found that funny.
Anyways, the idea came up not long ago, to surround a full Co2 cartridge with thermite, when the Co2 cartridge burst do to the extreme heat, it would throw the burning
thermite (and shrapnel!) everywhere.
Thermite that I've seen ignited throws its sparks and molten slag a fair distance all by itself.
If your interested at all in incindiaries, use aluminum piping, or aluminum cans, the Aluminum shell actually ignites, emitting blinding white light
-A- August 17th, 2001, 06:32 PM

ogi, w hats a thermite bomb?. As I see it, the thermite reaction melts things, I don't think it is able to blow a pipe or something as only heat is produced in large quantities.

I did think of a CO2/thermite type device, no doubt thought of before me though. What about a thermite/oxygen cannister type device? That might look nice http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

"i w ant this thing to throw my hot load at least 20 meters"
20 metres is well beyon the scope of performance for the average individual (using the natural system). So you're going ot need some kind of mechanical device. Simply
throwing the stuff from a little cup is probably unlikely to reach 20 metres, and passing through the air is likely to cool it, resulting in the load not being hot on arrival at it's
target. Best thing w ould probably to enclose it in a capsule like a plastic Kinder Egg thingy, launching from a catapult (slingshot, wristrocket if you're of the yankee persuasion)
would probably give good results.
Edit: as this may take many practises to get right, can you produce the stuff in reasonable quantity regulary throughout the day? Or would you collect it over a period of time? If
so you should be careful about how long you store it as I doubt it keeps very long (best put it in the fridge).
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited August 17, 2001).]
J August 18th, 2001, 07:46 AM

I thought NH4NO3 required high pressure as w ell as heat to detonate by itself? All the accidents I've read about involved huge quantities, thus large pressures.
J
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view= l)

well the grand camp had at least a ton, but i am banking on tons of ammonium nitrate in storage when it w ent up. BUT, in my 11th grade chemistry book (this is where i got
the info on the temp from) it had a picture of a small metal receptical throwing sparks, stating that ammonium nitrate explosivley decomposes at 300 degrees celcius. so, to
acheieve full detonating i bet there has to be a certain amount, just like in regular explosive use, when trying to set it off with a cap. but in general the shit will go up at any
quantity (but not detonating)
------------------

The Grand Camp had thousands of tonnes on board.
I'm pretty sure you need pressure as well as heat to detonate NH4NO3 too. The figure 200psi seems familiar.
BoB- August 19th, 2001, 11:51 PM

200psi? that w ould be easilly acheivable in steel by using Co2, or would that screw up the ability to detonate?
A couple of chunks of dry ice, and a lump of thermite =detonator?
mtness April 11th, 2004, 03:46 AM

1st
what about mixing thermite w ith flash powder then putting that in a CO2?
metafractal April 11th, 2004, 09:59 AM

Use N2O cannisters instead of CO2, so as to oxidize the flame instead of muffling it.
randall April 11th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Antony, that sounds about right. I remember hearing about the Grand Camp explosion, and that aside from the huge quantities, the cargo hold was sealed down to keep the fire
from spreading. As it heated the pressure built up, with the heat and pressure causing the explosion.
Yellow April 14th, 2004, 10:03 PM

Straight termite is used for creating a very concentrated heat in a small area, rather than spreading flames over a large area.
However, simply adding sulphur to it, will make it burn more explosive, throw ing sparks and burning particles around.
streety April 17th, 2004, 09:05 PM

If you want to spread fire and destruction for 20 metres using thermite you need to approach it in one of two ways.
Firstly you can allow the thermite reaction to reach completion (or close to it) and then spread molten iron about the place. The problem with this is that if you want to carpet an
area in molten iron you are going to need a small droplet size and so the iron will cool very rapidly, greatly reducing its effectiveness.
Alternatively you spread your thermite mixture about the target area in an initiated but unreacted (or only partially reacted) form. Thermite requires the aluminium and iron
oxide (assuming you're using the basic thermite mixture) to be in contact and this isn't really favoured by spreading the mixture about over a large area. One way to overcome
this may be to make a lot of small 'bomblets' of compacted aluminium/iron oxide mixture and then mix these in with a fast burning thermite mixture. The fast burning thermite
mixture ignites the 'bomblets' and either serves as the spreading mechanism or activates another explosive compound that spreads the 'bomblets'. There is still the problem of
the particles being spread needing to be large enough to stay hot while being small enough to allow enough to be packed into the device to carpet the target area.
Neither of these mechanisms are really ideal and as has already been mentioned I think you would be much better using the thermite reaction as a heat source for another
mechanism to carpet the area in destruction.
2,4,6-TNP April 18th, 2004, 05:35 AM

If you are trying to start a fire all you need to do is place the thermite exactly on top of the fuel to be burned, as the fire grows it will spread to other areas. If thermite is to be
used in a fuel deficiant area a fuel should be supplemented (thermite should not be considered an accelerant as it doesn't really spread fire that well, but it is a good igniter).
Use a good accelerant, like kerosene, to spread the fire. WHEREI don't think that thermite in a powder form can reliably and evenly be spread in all directions, you would have
to have an explosive charge in the center of the molten iron to do that job. I'm not sure if your idea here is to design a thermite canister, where you can just light a fuse throw
it into a building or whatever and reliably and with out any doubt in your mind burn everything to the ground. I would be interested in designing such a canister.AREThermite
munitions used in warfare are very heavy, hundreds of pounds. The thermite is in the form of large pellets, Thermite that has been pressed together under thousands of PSI.
The pellets are usually ignited by a fast burning white phosphorus mixture that ignites all the pellets at once. A large, high explosive bursting charge hurls the burning pellets in
all directions. So it is basically like a fragmentation bomb, only the fragments are burning and will ignite any fuel they touch. THEMaybe one of us will figure out how to make
these large pellets and ignite them all at once and use some TNT or other HE as a bursting charge. This would be a very effective weapon But it would be important to make the
pellets each probably into 1 1/2" in diameter so they will provide enough slag to stay hot long enough to start a fire. Such a device could probably be made out of a canister
with a srew top lid. PARAGRAPHThe inmost part w ould be a detonator, then a layer of TNT, then a layer of a first fire mix made out of the usual powdered aluminum, sulphur,
and potassium nitrate, then a layer of large thermite pellets, and finaly the thin wall of the canister. It would work like this: you light the fuse which burns through a drilled hole
in the casing, burns past the thermite pellets, to ignite the first fire mix, which burns very fast all the way around the TNT igniting the surface of every pellet, the fuse continues
to burn through the TNT, into the detonator w hich detonates the TNT which breaks the canister apart and sends the burning pellets out in every direction.BREAKS?! Maybe a
good Idea would be to sw itch the thermite pellets with the first fire mix, having the TNT in contact with the pellets and the first fire mix in contact w ith the canister's wall. That
way w hen the TNT detonates the pressure wave doesn't push directly on the ignited part of the pellet but rather on the opposite side so that it doesn't get put out. Well this is all
speculation, but I think I will give this idea a try, to find out if the pellets will stay burning and if the blast will break them apart or if they will remain together. I will try to get
use of a hydrolic press to make the pellets.NBK2000 I will try switching the positions of the first fire mix and the Pellets till I find something that works and if the HE keeps
putting out the thermite or if it breaks the pellets into small peices I w ill try some black powder as a burster instead. It w on't produce lethal fragmentation velocity, but it will
definitly spread the pellets around! I just thought of a problem w ith my initial idea: the canister can not use a scew cap lid because the pressure from the deflagerating first fire
mix may be great enough to burst the canister prematurely, so I think I w ill use a coffee can with a thin cotton rag taped on the top for a lid to release the initial pressure, but
not allow the pellets and first fire mix to fall out of the can during transportation or throw ing the device. The high explosive w ill have no problem blowing the can apart even
though there is no lid to contain the pressure! It seems important to carfully time the delays between the first fire mix igniting and the TNT exploding! Maybe it doesn't matter,
what I mean is maybe I w ould just need to blow up the TNT and it w ould ignite the first fire mix wich w ould in turn ignite the Thermite pellets. If that w oked, it would take care
of the pressure problem. The canister could be sealed tighter than a drum, but still the canister should be made out of a very thin, easily broken material so that the pellets will
survive the explosion and won't be crushed up against the canister w alls. Well I will keep working on this idea and w ill let everyone know when I have perfected it and what
materials I finally ended up using!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Inexperienced- Please Advise
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Ok well, everyone has to start somewhere. I am very new to all this and am getting tired of blackpowder. I want to make something new, stronger than blackpowder but not
anything that cant be detonated by enough force or just flame. After reading megalomania's site, I am too scared to make a peroxide as he recommended against it for
beginners. What would you recommend that ISN'T very shock sensitive and doesnt need a separate chemical to detonate it. Thanks.

Before I get flamed - I realize that fenris just posted a topic like mine in the High Explosives section. I am askin the same question as him, but I am looking for low explosives
- thats the only difference. Thanks.

I'd stick to BP, why do you need anything more powerful? If its just for crackers etc, then you should be fine with BP. Other LE's are white gunpowder, Chlorate flash,
perchlorate flash, permanganate flash and many more. If you're making your BP right then it should be fine, however because you are disappointed with it, or rather want to
move on, maybe you aren't making it well enough? Just some things to consider.
I best just add that chlorate flash, white gunpowder and definately permanganate flash are all unpredictable.
Ericm115 August 21st, 2001, 12:22 AM

ok thanks - Ill mess around with flash powders for a while. Ive done some searching, but all I can find is that perchlorates are safer than chlorates and I think I read that
sulpher makes it more shock sensitive. In your opinion, what is the LEAST shock sensitive flash powder? Thanks.
CyclonitePyro August 21st, 2001, 01:23 AM

I've been at your stage, and my next move was flash, I make 70/30, KCLO4/400mesh german dark AL.
I've never had an accident with this and it is not sensitive, probably the most insensitive flash. Sulfer does nothing to falsh except for making it more unstable.
The only reason I could see for not making this kind of flash would be unavailable chems.
If you were thrilled with bp salutes, you jaw will drop when you begin to experiment.

This helps allot - Thanks!

If you can get FINE zinc powder (10um or less), then 65% zinc, 35% sulphur is very fast burning when loose. Makes an intense green fireball and a thick cloud of smoke.
Thermite with Al and CuO is also very fast burning, but good BP is probably better.
KMnO4/Al is fine if you don't store it for long and you don't get it dirty. It burns very fast. Fine zinc powder can also be used. I think from BP you should progress to H-3 (70%
KClO3, 30% charcoal, and a little bit of dextrin or cornflour as a binder). This is much faster than BP. Mill the ingredients seperately, then mix them by hand NOT IN A MILL!!
Add a few mL of boiling water per 100 grams of H-3 and knead it in. When it's cold you should be able to push it through a seive to corn it, and then let it dry.
What chemicals can you get?

CyclonitePyro - will German Dark AL #600 mesh work? By the Way, what do the numbers like #400 and #600 mean?

The higher the mesh number is the smaller the particle size, thus the best and the fastest burning rate!
S does add something to the flash powder....it creates some permanent gases SO2!
------------------
Donutty September 18th, 2001, 04:10 PM

Here's a video of one of my KMNO4 / Paint grade al flash crackers. It's made in my favourite way - the triangle cracker style.
http://donuttyfiles.50megs.com/vids/
The video is called 'ppcracker.zip'
------------------
...AAGH! It Burns!...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > NEW OXIDIZER (A PEROXIDE)
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Alchemist August 21st, 2001, 12:02 AM

Hello all,
How has everybody been? Well here it is, a new PEROXIDE, a metallic one. It seems to be a real good oxidizer! So far I have tested it with some powdered Magnesium, a little
filed Aluminum , and some Sucrose (sugar). All with a very violent reaction! It is very easy to make, but does require VOLUME 100 (30%) HYDROGEN PEROXIDE (H2O2). For
all of use using HAIR BLEACHING H2O2 for Acetone Peroxide and thinking it was 30% or 40%, it is NOT! Volume 100 is 30% and it goes down from there. 40 volume is 12%,
30 volume is 9%, and 20 volume is 6%. Also I have found out that the POOL PEROXIDE (Baqua) is about 7.5%! All OK for Acetone Peroxide, but NOT metal peroxides, you
MUST use 30% or higher. I was able to persuade my dentist to give me 100ml! So for those of you who can get 30%, here is the procedure.
Chemicals required; 30% H2O2, Zinc Sulfate (ZnSO4) (or other water soluble Zinc salt), and concentrated clear Ammonia water!
In a large flask (500ml) or etc. add 14.38 grams of ZnSO4 and add 7.5 ml of distilled H2O! Bring to a temperature of 85 to 90 degrees C and then quickly add 15 ml of
concentrated Ammonia water. During this step , the precipitated Zinc Hydroxide (Zn(OH)2 is redissolved. Now add again quickly 20 ml of the 30% H2O2. The color should
change to a light yellow to a yellow/orange. Also there may be a lot of frothing (the reason for a large flask or etc.). Maintain temperature for at least one hour. Remove heat
and stir for another 10 minutes, then filter (vacuum preferred) in hot state and wash with water till filtrate is free of any sulfate. Dry at room temperature! That's it!
ZnO2; White to yellow/orange powder! Decomposes rapidly above 150 degrees C. Decomposes in acid, alcohol, and acetone. Insoluble in H2O, but is decomposed by it!
Hazards; Severe explosion risk when heated; explosive range from 190 to 212 C. Fire risk in contact with metals and organic materials.
P.S.1, I hope to soon test with Calcium,Barium,Lithium,and Strontium. That is if I can find MORE 30% H2O2.
P.S.2, I know that weaker H2O2 can be concentrated by freezing. Has anyone of ya done it and what where your results and details (ice box, temperature, etc.) Thanks!
CyclonitePyro August 21st, 2001, 01:13 AM

There are two kinds of baquacil, the kind for spas and the kind for pools, it says on the back of the gallon I have 27% H2O2, maybe the spa kind is 7%, with the results I get
with AP and HMTD, it is definitly 27%.
Alchemist August 21st, 2001, 01:39 AM

Thanks CyclonitePyro,
This is some good news. Are you in the USA?
------------------
Teck August 21st, 2001, 04:03 AM

When I first ordered Baquacil they sent me 7.5% peroxide wich is called baquaSpa and Baquacil for pool is 30% so right on cyclonitepyro
the freshmaker August 21st, 2001, 01:58 PM

That is interresting- if it is true!
Where did you find this information?
I will try this experiment with Barium sulfate soon maybe tomorrow. Should I use the same method with BaSO4 as for ZnSO4?
Alchemist August 21st, 2001, 07:42 PM

Hello all,
This information is true, as I have made the ZINC PEROXIDE as described and it does work as described. The information came to me from a HIGH SCHOOL chemistry teacher.
He did not tell me where the information came from (I do NOT think he wanted me to know)!
Also I have NOT tried others yet so I have no further information, except an old chemistry book that says that Strontium Peroxide is made by mixing H2O2 and Strontium
Hydroxide! Just thought I would try some others though!
Bye for now..................................
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CyclonitePyro August 22nd, 2001, 02:26 AM

Yup, I'm from the U.S., PA. to be exact.
But that's about as specific as I'm going to get.
I can remember walking out of the Apollo Pools store gripping my baquacil tight with tears in my eyes. The cashier told me not to drink it all at once.
I hope Apollo Pools is a nation wide store, otherwise I might of given away my location.
Alchemist August 22nd, 2001, 11:16 AM

Hello gang,
Got some 27% H2O2 from Baquacil. Starting work on Strontium Peroxide!
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the freshmaker August 23rd, 2001, 10:48 AM

Yesterday I tried to make BaO2 from BaSO4. I used the same method/ratios as for Zinc peroxide (I know it wasn't optimal for BaO2)
I don't think the reaction worked since I tried to ignite a mix of the powder and Al/sucrose and nothing happendhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
BaSO4 is very insoluble in water, can that be the reason that it didn't worked?
I know that BaO2 can be made by reacting BaOH with O2, but I don't have any BaOH.
Does anyone else hav some info about these metal peroxides? I thought about using NaOH (caustic soda) to produce Sodium peroxide?
Alchemist August 25th, 2001, 03:51 PM

Hello gang,
Well I am sorry to say, I can NOT get even the ZINC PEROXIDE to work with the 27% H2O2 from Baquacil. The Dentist peroxide I was given was said to be 35%. I do not
know if this is what has to be used or if the Baquacil peroxide has same impurities in it.
Well it was a good try! MAYBE if I feel real energetic I will concentrate the 27%. Later then........................................

Barium peroxide - I somehow don't believe the recipe is absolutely correct, I think there is a 5 fold excess of ammonia and 10 fold excess of H2O2 (or maybe it's necessary),
but anyway, here's what I found. If you try it and find it to work with less peroxide, please let me know.
Prepare a solution of 47g of barium chloride dihydrate in 250ml water. To this solution add 250ml 30% H2O2. Add 200ml 24% aqueous ammonia solution with stirring. Let the
mixture stand until no more precipitate forms. Decant the clear portion, and replace the liquid with fresh water. Repeat the decanting 2-3 times. Filter on a Buchner funnel and
wash with water. Dry in a porcelain cup at 50-70C, occasionally spreading the powder with a spatula. After the product turns into a crumbly mass, increase the temperature to
75-80C. Store the completely dried product in a tightly sealed bottle. Yield: 55-60g of the octahydrate. The product can be further dried to the hemihydrate at 130C. The
completely anhydrous peroxide can be obtained above 200C, but a partial loss of oxygen will occur.
the freshmaker August 26th, 2001, 05:47 AM

Thanks Lagen! Are you sure BaSO4 can't be used to make Barium Peroxide? I don't have any Barium Chloridehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif What about
the Sodium Peroxide? Can it be made with Sodium Chloride or Sodium Hydroxide or other avaible chemicals?

Barium Sulfate - It probably won't do the trick http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif BaSO4 is well known for its "insolubility" (MUCH less soluble than calcium
sulfate), for this reason reactions involving BaSO4 (most typically starting from BaCl2) are often used in analytical chemistry where a simple method of sulfate ion assay is
desired. Similarly, in preparative chemistry such reactions are used to "clean" solutions of sulfate ions. Being used as barium meal for x-raying, it is the most readily available
barium chemical. It was commonly available in my country a few years ago (in medical supplies shops), but nowadays it is supplied only to hospitals. I have a friend who can
steal it for me, though. But BaSO4 is pretty useless.
Barium Chloride - You should consider getting this from a friendly labware/chemical supplier. It is one of the most important chemicals in a lab (for the above reasons) and its
acquisition arouses little suspition. You just need to convince them you don't want do poison someone with it. Make up a story involving "removing sulfate ions" (bout your
photographic chemicals or whatever) and you shouldn't have problems.
Sodium Peroxide - A similar method won't work to make it, because Na2O2 reacts with water to form NaOH and free oxygen (therefore it is one of the strongest bleaches
around). I don't know what method is used to prepare it, perhaps something like reacting metallic sodium with 100% H2O2 in vacuum... One of my anorganic technology
books mentions it, the book is at a friend, so I can't look right now, but anyway I think it involved just NaOH and H2O2, so the peroxide was present only in solution and could
not be isolated.
Alchemist August 26th, 2001, 09:12 PM

Hello all,
Thanks for the info Lagen! What we need is some more feed back. I really hope others try these and other metallic Peroxides and PLEASE post your findings. Like I have stated
the Zinc Peroxide does work as first stated. I will also try Lagens recipe and again still work with others (Strontium, Lithium, Calcium, Barium, and etc.)as time permits (school
is starting Aug 29). Like I said in the beginning these Peroxides make great oxidizers for all sorts for stuff (flash compositions, detonators, pyrotechnics, and etc.. Well that's it
for now................
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mark September 12th, 2001, 09:30 PM

Where can I get zink sulphate?
kingspaz September 13th, 2001, 05:39 PM

zinc sulphate can be made by adding metallic zinc to copper sulphate. it should make metallic copper and a zinc sulphate solution.

Are their any other sources?
FadeToBlackened September 17th, 2001, 10:07 PM

Sulphuric acid and Zinc metal should also give it. I dont know what if anything it is used for.

Where can I find zinc powder?
Alchemist September 18th, 2001, 02:35 AM

Hello gang,
I bought my Zinc Sulfate at "Green Thumb" Nurseries!
Zinc can be found as the casing for Zinc/Carbon batteries.

Cool. I may have to try this. Ive obtained some 30% peroxide from furniture bleach, but I am hesitant to waste any of this precious comodity withought knowing a bit more
this experiment. My main question is how much zinc peroxide was yielded.
Alchemist September 18th, 2001, 08:03 PM

Hello all,
I got about 10 grams the first time and 13 grams the second time. I used 35% H2O2 the first time and 27% the second. I refluxed the second time and that is why I think I got
a better yield, but the first batch was with a better oxygen content! Bye..........
the freshmaker September 24th, 2001, 09:52 AM

Do ya think copper peroxide can be prepared by reacting copper sulfate with H2O2? That would be nice since it is easy to buy Copper sulfate.
------------------
good boy with bad ideas
mr.evil March 28th, 2002, 10:57 AM

i think zinc borate will be a very strong oxidizer to!
i can get this in kg. quantities very easily..
the_wingman March 29th, 2002, 04:18 PM

I wonder what happens with the ammonia. Normally zinc builds a [Zn(NH3)4]-ion if soluted in ammonia water. Might it be that the final zinc peroxide contains some ammonia
like [Zn(NH3)4]O2?
CuO2?....hmm....wouldn't that decompose in air to?
2CuO ----> 2CuO + O2 .....since copper is quite unreactive this may be too unstable to exist for long. what about iron peroxide?
FeO2? but these metals have variable oxidation states which may make them liable to decomposition:
FeO2 + FeO (present as impurity) ----> Fe2O3 ?
i dunno....possibilities...
what about aluminium peroxide?
Al2O4...is that the right formula?
could be made by reacting Al foil with H2SO4 to get the sulphate which could inturn be used to prepare the peroxide.

Has anyone ever tried adding H2SO4 to ZnO2? Does this yield H2O2 just like BaO2? If yes, it can be used to concentrate H2O2! :)
Spacko November 4th, 2007, 12:41 PM

Has anyone successfully made BaO2 from H2O2? I'm interested in it because allegedly its possible to make barium ferrate from BaO2+Fe2O3.
Also I wanted to add that I have made ZnO2 two times, first using the reaction described here, the second time I simply boiled 30% H2O2 with ZnO powder. I got the same
yellow powder each time. The second time I used a large glass dish as reaction vessel, because when I used an Erlenmeyer I had big trouble with the frothing. The mixture
was boild until no more O2 was formed, then I evaporated at a much lower temp (60C I would guess). The yellow stuff obtained is a very strong oxidizer. I need to check if it
forms impact-sensitive mixtures with sulfur, that would be interesting...
Oh one little warning: I had a small "explosion" of the glass container I used to keep my ZnO2. Apparently there was some moisture in it. Because it was tightly sealed, this
produced a high pressure and/or temperature, possibly causing a chain reaction with more ZnO2 decomposing. Anyways, the glass container was shattered with a loud boom,
spreading the corrosive powder all over the place >:( Luckily I could recover most of it.
Spacko November 30th, 2007, 02:58 PM

Just did a small test: ZnO2 does form impact and friction sensitive mixtures with sulfur. They're less sensitive than chlorate mixtures however.
Pb(NO3)2 November 30th, 2007, 06:24 PM

Could you describe the experiment please. How much ZnO did you add to how much H2O2? And how long did you boil it? And did you wash the ZnO2 after filtering it? If yes
with what? And did you dried it in open air or did you heat it?
Bacon46 December 1st, 2007, 08:07 PM

I worked with a welder/blacksmith that uses 35% H2O2 and NaCl to accelerate the formation of rust for the rustic look.
He purchased the H2O2 by the gallon at Chem Lab Supply in Phoenix, Arizona
Helpful if you live in the Phoenix area.
Yafmot December 29th, 2007, 07:13 PM

This stuff gives me an idea for my smoke grenade program. If I mixed up the proper proportions of Zn and ZnO2 in, say, a PBAN binder, the metal and the peroxide should
form ZnO, the particles of which will be carried out and dispersed by the gasification of the rubber. I might have to juggle the amount of oxidizer, so that all the binder burns
up. If I use just the right amount of extra ZnO2, it might strip only one Oxygen off for burning the binder, leaving yet more ZnO for the cloud.
So, whaddaya' think? Would it require more ZnO2 than is safe to make? I prefer to do my flying in an airplane.
Zelot December 31st, 2007, 07:39 PM

Because we are all talking about the possibilities of metalic peroxides other than zinc, why not just try magnesium peroxide? I mean, magnesium sulfate hydrate can be bought
very easily at most stores as epsom salts, so... would it be possible?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Synthesis procedure for picramic acid
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xlivermoron August 19th, 2001, 03:17 AM

I read several synthesis proce dures for DDNP and all start with picram ic a cid which b e c a m e unavailable from the last US
chemical house (Sigm a) in 1996. I have found only one synthesis procedure for it in the CIA "Blackbook" Vol. 3 but it is not
very precise. There is also a British nitration firm that claims that they use a proprietary process using sodium hydrosulfide,
NaHS, as a reducing agent for the NO2 groups on Picric acid (the starting ingredient). The problem is as follows. The reduction
o f o n e N O 2 g r o u p u s u a l l y d o e s n o t s t o p with a single group unle ss the concentration of NaHS is very low. Too large a
concentration of NaHS reduces m ore than one NO2 which is not picramic acid. So the question is what is the appropriate
concentration of NaHS (assum ing proper m olar balance)? W h a t t e m p e r a t u r e s h o u ld the reaction be caried out? Wha t pH should
t h e a q u e o u s s o l u t i o n b e ? ( M a y b e t h e r e a c t i o n i s d o n e i n a n a n h y d r o u s m e d i u m ??) I would appreciate any guidance from the
e x p e r i m entalists out there.
Tony Montana August 21st, 2001, 04:35 AM

First off, heres a couple of pla ces that currently sell Picram ic acid:
http://www.premdye.com/buy.htm
http://www.norkem.com/P-products.htm
http://www.yickvicchem .com/din21.htm
Secondly, what CIA Black Book Vol.3 are you re ading? T he only reference to DDNP in the Im provised Munitions Black Books in
in Volume 1.
Thirdly, I just posted a recipe in Low explosives, under the title DDNP pro cedure.(It had a m istake, I stated you need KNO 3 or
NaNO3, but you actually need KNO2 or NaNO2). That aside it does not start with p icram ic acid. HINT: picram ic acid is produce d
in that synthesis.

Did you get m y e-mail? I hope it helped a bit!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Magnesium cord
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Mystery March 9th, 2001, 09:35 AM

Hey does anyone know where I can get stuff in OZ called Magnesium cord or ribbon.
Just wondering...
CragHack March 9th, 2001, 04:47 PM

unless you get the Mg firestarters, sale of Mg is pretty restricted throughout most countries. it is used widely in drug making and apparently that is a no-no.
------------------
...
Agent Blak March 9th, 2001, 05:32 PM

What drugs do can you make from or with Mg?
------------------
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

i am not sure specifically but i think it is used in the various oxidation reduction reactions required when making drugs. don't know which ones though... sorry
------------------
...
SATANIC March 9th, 2001, 11:15 PM

near where i live, the camping dtore sells solid magnesium block, which i file up to a pretty fine powder. it goes off with a great white flah when lit. the only place i have found
Mg ribbon is at school. if you're still at school, then it shouldn't be too hard to 'aquire' some.

oh yeah, mg fire starters are a good way to go. i have a block myself. good for any needed firestarting or high intensity flame. you can usually get them at camping stores.
don't think there sale is restricted cause it is hard to grind into usable sizes.
------------------
...
SMAG 12B/E5 March 10th, 2001, 12:37 AM

For a cheap source of magnesium check out the machine shops, scrap yards and the plumbing suppliers. Many machine shops don't like to machine Mg because of it's ignitable
characteristics. Machine swarf will often come off as a long curled chip or fine chips, depending on the cut. All forms are useful. This is also an excellent source of aluminum,
sometimes free.
Scrap yards often have huge quantities of many alloys, including magnesium, aluminum and magnalloy (Mg/Al mixture). Aircraft scrap will often contain a large proportion of
Mg parts. The yards sometimes have barrels of machine chips from local shops.
Plumbing shops will often sell replacment Mg anode bars for water heaters. These bars reduce the corrosion in water heaters. These bars can be turned on a lathe, carefully
keeping the heat down or may be "planed" with a sharp single cut hand file broken with the cut.
Be sure to have a good acceptable "cover story" for your purchase and check more than one source for prices.
Mystery March 10th, 2001, 09:27 AM

Thanks guys
SofaKing March 11th, 2001, 03:11 PM

I have seen 100ft rolls on sale at ebay (http://www.ebay.com) for reasonable prices. Other chemicals are also on sale from time to time.
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
Jhonbus March 12th, 2001, 06:29 PM

Wow, good idea! I woulda never thought of that, although I've bought loads of stuff on ebay. Nice one, thanks!

They're all plastic nowadays.
blackadder March 13th, 2001, 04:16 PM

It would be hard to dig all the way down to the pipes, they are rather deep down, that would take ages.
You also run risk of puncturing the pipes or getting caught.
nbk2000 March 13th, 2001, 10:49 PM

Mg reacts with alkyl halides like benzyl bromide or methyl iodide to form what's known as a Grignard reagent. These are used in clandestine chemistry for reductions and other
reactions useful for making drugs.
When you file or turn off cuttings from magnesium, you need to immediately treat the pieces with an alcohol solution of shellac to prevent oxidation of the Mg particles.
------------------
greenbeanie March 25th, 2001, 12:51 AM

Firequest sells Magnesium Ribbon. 4 oz bag for $29.99
greenbeanie March 25th, 2001, 12:01 PM

Firequest reduced it to $19.99 for a large 4oz bag. Their website is www.firequest.com/ (http://www.firequest.com/)
A-BOMB June 1st, 2001, 07:00 PM

If you can find a old hu-34 helocoper they were made by "sycorskey" (spelled wrong) there internal structure is made of it along with it's skin, and they shouldn't be too hard
to find at a time the US Maries opperated 961 of them and 13,532 were made from 1949 to 1967. So if you live near a aircraft junkyard. he he he he he free MG
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
ftsman June 2nd, 2001, 12:25 AM

strait up i got my Mg @ school. in lab i asked the teach if i could get/ pass out the Mg. then i simple took 10ft of it and put it in my pocket.easy as pie(mmmmmm pie)
SafetyLast July 14th, 2001, 06:14 PM

Hmmm might be hard finding an old sikorsky helicopter body.
I got my ribbon the same way ftsman got his, but I got about a 30 ft. roll of it
(snuck into the supply room http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif)
Zach July 15th, 2001, 01:32 AM

I know that old(er) VW Beetles have a Mg engine block... I'm willing to bet you could find one of those someplace
------------------
deezs July 15th, 2001, 02:04 PM

I can not belive, that you can find pure Mg. It must be an alloy. Nowadays you can't find any pure metals around you. Alloys are better to use. - Not good for home-chemists.
If the alloy, you have, contains Mg and Al, you can't notice the difference.
If you are interested in it, I can tell you a few analitycal reactions to find the other metals in your alloy. My first hobby is qualitative analytical chemistry. Explosives are just the
second.
PHILOU Zrealone July 23rd, 2001, 09:30 AM

Often an alloy of Al and Mg! Both burn quit wel the second fearcely but who cares it works wel.
------------------
Pyro Essentials July 23rd, 2001, 03:41 PM

www.hi-vel.com (http://www.hi-vel.com) sells mg. strips, I bought some and it is fine. They also sell thermite, mg powder, and mercury.
Fingerless August 26th, 2001, 11:53 PM

I have about a 3 pound chunk of solid magnesium. Its the riser of an old compound bow. Haven't used it yet.
EventHorizon August 27th, 2001, 10:52 AM

HAHAHAH, same here man, it was an old recurve bow w/ fiberglass limbs. IIRC the sp. gr. of a chunk of it determined pure Mg.

Even old cell phones (inside the plastic cases) have a Mg shielding between the battery and the circuitry. I don't know about a decent source of old cell phones but ... if u get
one .... it has Mg in it.
------------------
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
nbk2000 May 12th, 2004, 09:27 PM

This months Popular Mechanics, June 2004, has an illustration on page 116 that shows how to identify aluminum and magnesium anode rods.
Aluminum rods have a smooth head, while the magnesium rods have a welded bead.
a_bab May 13th, 2004, 09:29 AM

The easiest way to make the distinction between Al and Mg is with vinegar. Mg fizzles with vinegar (it's actually easily attacked, just like the reaction between Zn and HCl),
while Al doesn't.
tmp May 13th, 2004, 03:40 PM

Go to: http://www.magnesiumsales.com
This company sells magnesium block and the price is more reasonable than
ribbon or powder. I'm sure that the ribbon shows up on eBay now and then
like alot of chemicals/elements do. But the price varies from seller to seller.
There are other suppliers but I prefer the block because of its low price and
it's not difficult to grind it into powder. As always, have fun ! :D
shadow2501 May 13th, 2004, 06:58 PM

looks like too much people on this forum tried at magnesiumsales at the same time, the site is temporarly down :D guess we'll have to try another time :rolleyes:
blindreeper May 14th, 2004, 03:30 AM

To answer the original question, yes I do and here is proof :)
http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/magnesium_ribbon.jpg
75ft roll cost $30 AU including shipping, it's out there you just have to look :P
K9 May 14th, 2004, 10:09 AM

I have good experience with the website magnesiumsales. The owner is quite a nice guy and of course the prices are quite nice. If you want to compare, hust work out how
much it will cost to a get a pound of magnesium from a firestarter as compared to a pound from there. But then again, this only helps people who live in the US and Canada.
But for those that do, this is a good place to get magnesium in ingots.
tmp May 16th, 2004, 02:04 AM

K9, I got my magnesium from www.magnesiumsales.com :D
I bought a large quantity so I'll have plenty of Mg to play around with for
quite some time. I'm curious, how long did it take for you to get it there in
Canada ? That place is probaby 3000 miles from me and my order arrived in
3 DAYS ! The advertising on the website is right to the point. Why pay so
much for ribbon or firestarters when the same amount of money will get you
a nice big block ? How do you grind yours ? I use a benchgrinder and ball
mill back-to-back. I just have to take more care than I do with aluminum.
My homemade aluminum powder will ignite with a butane lighter on the very
fine grades. I've noticed that even coarse Mg will burn easily.
blindreeper May 16th, 2004, 02:14 AM

Why not make some magnalium with the big Mg ingots you guys have? Then you could crush it in a ball mill!
K9 May 16th, 2004, 02:48 AM

I don't remember exactly how long but it was a fairly short amount of time. I've used various methods from a file (yes I know, it goes that slow) to bench grinders. Ball milling
afterwards, like you said, will usually fix it up quite nicely. And even the coarser Mg, again like you said, will ignite easily and work well in a variety of compositions. As far as
MgAl goes, using large ingots proves to be a very cost efficient method of production.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Fulminate?
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View Full Version : Lead Fulminate?
simply RED September 3rd, 2002, 11:55 AM

Have you ever heared of lead fulminate?
It must have formula Pb(ONC)2 and have similar properties of Hg(ONC)2?
It must be prepared by adding ethanol to mixture of lead nitrate in HNO3?
Is it critical sensitive like Ag(ONC)
Why i never heared of it...
Boob Raider September 4th, 2002, 01:04 AM

Well you could have a fulminate of any heavy or unreactive metal which would be explosive. Also azides, some nitrides, picrates, styphanates, carbides, picramates and the list
goes on ...... use your immagination. :D
simply RED September 4th, 2002, 02:08 AM

I'm asking it because i don't know can lead fulminate substitute the unstable peroxides and the expensive azides in homemade detonators?
It is interesting why it is made Hg fulminate and Pb azide, not Hg azide and Pb fulminate?
da man September 4th, 2002, 04:03 AM

There are a great range of fulminates (which are primary explosives) that can be prepared. I don't know the stability of lead fulminate, but it is probably similar to mercury
fulminate. However the only fulminates that can be prepared from a metal nitrate in initric acid reacting with ethanol are mercury fulminate and silver fulminate. The others
must be made from silver or mercury fulminate.
There was a topic some time back (called "other fulminates" i think) that covered this in detail.
Boob Raider September 4th, 2002, 11:11 AM

Guys is there anyway of converting Hg(SCN)2 to our friend Hg(OCN)2. cause there is a thingy sold (I am not too sure if this is still sold)for kids called "serpants" or something.
It has a mix or Hg(SNC)2 and NH4Cr2O7. <a href="http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Hg/key.html" target="_blank">http://
www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Hg/key.html</a>
Click on the video clip, if you still don't know what I mean. The URL might need to be cut and pasted in your browser. They also have a clip of NI3 in the Iodine section.
If possible one would have all the Hg fulminate they need. :D
RED .... If your wanting to make cynates of Pb, Cu etc. do it via the cyanic acid + ?(CO3)x or ?(OH)x to get the ? fulminate. or acquire Na or K or NH4 cynate and mix with ?'s
H2O soluble salt soln. I have the prep of Cyanic acid lying around but you'll probably find it on the forum itself.
Polverone September 4th, 2002, 03:45 PM

Cyanates aren't the same as fulminates, sadly. And the mercury-containing snake fireworks have been unavailable for decades. "Back to the old drawing board."
Boob Raider September 4th, 2002, 08:20 PM

Yo Polverone. What is the difference between cyanate and fulminate ? Anyone tell me. I always thought they were the same ... fulminate being the common name. :confused:
Marvin September 15th, 2002, 02:52 PM

Cyanates have the C in the middle, OCN-.
Fulminates have the N in the middle ONC-.
Altogether a much less stable state.
When covalently bonded the term iso indicates the alternative atom is being bonded. Thus C2H5-NCO is ethyl isocyanate, C2H5-NC is ethyl isocyanide.
Stay safe.
Boob Raider September 15th, 2002, 09:56 PM

So then Marvin, cyanates and organic iso-cyanates are the same according to the C being in the middle rule and ethyl iso-cyanate example ? :confused:
Which one of the following can be used to make Pb fulminate ? Na cyanate or the iso-cyanate or fulminate cannot be made by interacting salts. :p I need more bonding detail
if possible.
you go boom March 6th, 2003, 10:13 AM

i believe lead fulminate is used as a mix to gasoline engines, i do remember hearing about a chemichal that when one pint added to 10 gallons of unleaded fuel will increase by
atlease 10 horsepower. im pretty sure it was lead fulminate.
a_bab March 6th, 2003, 11:18 AM

Unfortunately you are quite wrong. The compound you heard about is called tetra ethyl lead and it's used to increase the octanic number (which will DECREASE the premature
detonations of the gasoline, hence increasing the engine power). In other words, making gasoline HARDER to burn. It's a organic compound containing a metal.
It was choosen because the scientists concluded that a heavy metal compound is needed, and the coupound should be soluble in gasoline.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > APrc lab:improvised lab procedures and chems
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View Full Version : APrc lab:improvised lab procedures and chems
NoltaiR September 17th, 2002, 12:32 AM

And yet another AP topic... Ah well this is a good one.
Anyways I have been out of the explosives business for a few months now (my parents always find out and take it all away) but with a little extra time and chems I proceded to conduct a 'little' AP lab using 1 gallon
3% H2O2 (which is boilded down), 550 mL of acetone, and 30mL of drain cleaner H2SO4.
Half of the AP will be used to make APrc and the other half will be used to make APANrc. AT LEAST one of the tests is going to be an FAE test using APrc within a waterproof container submerged in a half gallon of
gasoline.
Both electrical and fuse ignition will be used in the various experiments that I conduct.
I just decided to do this today so the AP is still synthesizing (it has been about 5 hours now) and here is what I have so far.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/noltair" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/noltair</a>
And yes the page is VERY basic... it is just a status report so don't complain!!! My days of spending hours creating 'pretty' websites are over.
In any case, if any of you have questions/comments/ideas for what I can test the APrc/APANrc with, they are welcome.

As well as my new sig...

It will be interesting to see if the gasoline will ignite. I don't think it will.
a_bab September 17th, 2002, 05:33 AM

Neither do I. It'll be splattered to atoms but not ignited. Maybe if you'll use some (secondary) fire near it, it might work. Or add some Al powder in AP (which is a bad idea since the AP molecule lacks in oxygen)
As for your sig I bet that the mods will have something against it signature (is longer than the post of lots of people here, for God sake)
nbk2000 September 17th, 2002, 08:42 AM

"devEstating" is spelt "devAstating".
As for the sig, the limit is 3 lines or less at whatever screen resolution I happen to be using when I first see it. His is 3 lines so it can stay.
Add some lighter flints to the APrc when you cast it. The hot sparks should light the gas fumes nicely. :)

Thanks for the spell check NBK, the error in the sig is corrected.
NERV September 17th, 2002, 04:34 PM

I was wondering if you have had any problems with that kind of H2SO4. because your H2SO4 is the same kind as mine, And I constantly have problems with it.

NERV, if you want to make your drain opener better quality then simply boil it. the last water will be removed and the dye will also evapourate leaving 98% H2SO4 with little impurites.
NERV September 17th, 2002, 10:00 PM

I always thought that if you boiled it the dyes would just stay in the acid. Well I guess I have a new thing to try in the morning. Hopefully it will work because this is the cheapest source I have for H2SO4.

Alright time for my 24 hour status report.
First I should reply to your posts.

To NERV: I have been using this type of H2SO4 in all of my AP labs that I have conducted over the past few years excepting 2 or 3 small-scale labs which were done with 95% lab grade H2SO4 which I 'aquired'
from a chemistry class back in high school. I have never boiled it and due to the fact that the additives (which account for about 2-3% of the acid mixture) are there only to reduce the amount of heat generated
when the H2SO4 comes in contact with other chemicals.. which is a great thing for this lab because it means that instead of have to add drop by drop, you can use more of a gentle 'squirt' from a medicine dropper
or pipet without heating the acetone mix up very high. Also if there is any problem that I note from the first batch of AP that I always take which contains ALL the additives, it is that it makes the AP take slightly
longer to get dry, but it does not hurt the performance any.
Having that said, I have just updated it for today with the first batch of AP retrieved (130g). The second batch will be taken at the 48 hour mark and it will be a snow-white color rather than brown as it is in the first
batch.
For those of you too lazy to scroll up, here is the link again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Just scroll down to the second status report which is on the same page.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/noltair" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/noltair</a>
Mick September 18th, 2002, 11:05 AM

what the hell is "rc" as in APrc or APANrc
i don't think i've even see that one on the forum before
BrAiNFeVeR September 18th, 2002, 11:37 AM

Although it's another one of those unregulated abbreviations, it has been used lots of times before ...
It stands for "rubber cement" iirc.

Brainfever is correct.. the abbreviation hasn't really been used all that extensively although it has been around for at least a few months now. The first time I started using 'rc' was in the 'explosive putty' thread.
But in any case, it is a good enough plasticizer to deserve its own abbreviation (in my opinion) for crystalline type explosives because of its toluene content and various other characteristics that it has.
A-BOMB September 18th, 2002, 03:01 PM

Noltair that AP don't look quite right to me, kinda brownish wouldn't you say.

A-Bomb, that is residual dye from the H2SO4.
NoltaiR, to remove the dye from the drain opener simply bring it to the boil for 20s or so and the dye will vanish (evapourate i assume, but never make assumptions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> ).
also a note on your procedure for boiling the H2O2 down...you use a metal pan. if the pan is Al then its ok but if it is a stainless steel then it would likely catalyse the decomposition of the H2O2 thus leaving you
with less H2O2 than you would expect.

Contrary to popular belief that white AP is the best way to have it, I rather favor having a coloration in mine (and yes it is because of the drain opener H2SO4) because in such cases as my APANrc, it is very easy
to distinguish when the two are well mixed, which would be much harder if they were both white.
Anyways I just stopped in to see the posts, right now I am currently working on the lab and I have already mixed up the first batch of APrc (80g) and APANrc (240g). They are setting out to let the rc dry (which can
take quite a while), but all I have yet to do for today is extract my second batch of what I call '48 hour AP'. It looks like a good turnout from the looks of the mix and in fact, I am going to do something I haven't
ever done before and I will let the filtrate from this batch refrigerate and see if any amount of '72 hour AP' can be taken.
And as said earlier, the dyes in the drain cleaner H2SO4 all settle and come out in the 24 hour batch, so the 48 hour and the 72 hour will be snow-white like the rest of you are used to seeing.
Anyways I will post my status report and pics when I am done with this new AP so check back in an hour or so.
edit: and one more thing, kingspaz is correct about the use of boiling in metal pots. This lab uses a cast aluminum pot but I have done tests with other metals in the past and you can tell how much is decomposing
based on the amount of ozone around the pot (which is very easy to smell when boiling such large amounts).
[ September 18, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

just another thing to add about H2O2 boiling pots. the reason Al is fine and stainless steel not is because stainless steel is transition metal based. the pot must be non transition metal because these metals have
catalystic properties towards H2O2. not sure if they all do, Sc and Zn would not have these properties but they are not transition by definition even though in the D block of the periodic table.
A-BOMB September 18th, 2002, 06:13 PM

Noltair what where the ratios of the AP to rc? And Noltair you have chickens? I though my family was one of the last people that still raise their own chickens.
dave September 18th, 2002, 06:20 PM

noltair i just read your post and i was thinking. you should use some bacquil shock and oxidizer. I got some 27% in a one gallon jug and it was only $15.15 with sales tax. It seems to work way better then boiled
3% hydroger peroxide. Me and my friend whips up 3x batches at one time: 150ml acetone, 90ml bacquil shock, 30ml 94% sulfuric acid. We can filter it out in one hour and the solution is so thick that it won't pour.
We have to stir it around pour some water water in it to be able to filter it. My friend and i can do a whole batch and filter it in 2.5 hours and load it the next morning.
------------------
don't you think he'd use it if he could get it?! he has actually found a technique to make the best of what he CAN get - kingspaz

Alright just finished with todays work and the 3rd status report. I would stay and reply to your posts but I am late for work!
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/noltair" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/noltair</a>
EP September 18th, 2002, 07:48 PM

Good documentation!
I also raise chickens btw.

I can tell you guys are very observant if you noticed the one pic that had the chicken in the background out of all of them. :rolleyes:
Anyways, to answer the question about ratios of AP to rc, I really have never measured it (and I have done this lab MANY times.. in fact this is my third bottle of drain cleaner H2SO4 to have bought just for this
lab...as well as a couple failed picric acid labs). I just use enough to cover all the AP but not so much that you would have rc still around the pile unmixed.

Last night the 24 hour white AP (which was 100g when wet) was completely dry after just 5 hours of setting (as opposed to the dyed AP which took over 24 hours). Anyways the white AP was mixed with rc and its
final weight was 110g. Testing will probably be done tomorrow (and maybe in very small amounts tonight where the APrc has dried around the edges).
But the particular advantage to this lab with rc is that it stays a spongy texture for a while (a few days when exposed to air, about a week and a half when sealed up). It dries in the form of an unshaped slab (about
1cm thick) and when ready to use, you simply take a knife or cookie cutter and cut the shape of explosive that you want.
If a claymore style is desired, BBs or other small metal material can easily be embedded in the cut peice of explosive. Just make sure that the BBs are embedded only slightly, the stickyness of the APrc will hold
it; otherwise you may interfere with the possible VoD of the explosive if the density is changed.
Then ground zero is selected. The explosive, although dry of water, is sticky, so that it can be placed on vertical walls, or even upside-down on the bottoms of chair seats or similar.
If a fuse ignition is to be selected, make sure you have a type that doesn't throw a lot of sparks (low carbon content) and that you have plenty of fuse just to be extra sure that the explosive doesn't detonate
prematurely. As an added precaution, lay strips of duct tape over the APrc to protect from heat and sparks.
nbk2000 September 19th, 2002, 01:47 PM

The chicken was one of my spies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Well as of this evening both the white and the dark APrc charges were dried but it was raining outside so I didn't feel like doing anything other than staying inside and watching MTV. Anyways I am probably going to
do most, if not all, my testing tomorrow so expect quite a few pics. The APrc has been cut into about 7 rectangles of differing sizes with scissors. The APANrc is still drying and for some reason it sweats off some
sort of oily residue when drying.. I wasn't sure if that had to do with the addition of AN or rc.
The APANrc charge will most likely be devided into two 105g charges (that is an estimated dry weight), or I might just get daring and use it all... I kinda feel like destroying another folding chair. :D
Also, for the FAE idea, I have decided to simply use the APrc as a lift charge and have gasoline in a ziplock bag over it.. very basic and definetly not a very original idea; but I think it will make for a nice show. And
also what you guys don't know (yet) about the detonation of APrc is that although it completely detonates--and is very brissant--it throws of some pretty good forks of fire as well which would be more than enough
to ignite the gasoline. The APANrc, on the other hand, is still a rather low temp detonation--though a lot of pushing power which is common with AN mixes--which doesn't throw off any visible amount of flame.
I have spent some of my free time this evening preping my old ignition box.. it still works but looks a bit shabby; and I have made a few feet of what I call ghetto fuse which is a line of finely powdered KNO3 and
sugar along ducttape which is rolled up. The purpose of this is to (1). have a slow burning delay and (2). have something that is extrely easy to make with no limit on how much I can make and finally (3.) have a
very flexible and versatile type of delay. Oh yeah, and it doesn't throw off sparks like a BP fuse would making it more favorable for this type of improvised lab.
edit: one more thing, the characteristic of APrc being sticky is based on the drying time. The charge will go through a few changes while setting out. First when the rc is mixed with the AP, you will notice that
whatever remaining water that was in the AP will immediately start to sweat off, making the only thing that you really have to wait to dry off for is the solvents in the rc. Once it is dry the AP will feel a little spongy
and it is minutely flexible, bend it too much and it will begin to break.. but at this point the AP is not sticky yet. Then the AP is allowed to set a little longer and after a small amount of AP has vaporized on the
outside, the bonding toluene will be left bare on the outside of the charge making it sticky.
[ September 20, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

Cutting AP bonded with rubber cement with scissors? That sounds clever.
Bombshock MK II, here we come.
[ September 20, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

Ahh well it works.. along with the fact that I just don't have as much respect for its possible sensitivity as I should.
And I do resent the whole 'bombshock' comment... if you were doing this lab then you could do it how you want, but seeing as how I am the one doing the research, then its my way or no way.
Anyways I checked the APANrc this morning and the oils have quit sweating so it should be ready as well by this afternoon.
[ September 20, 2002, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
carbonated September 20th, 2002, 06:51 PM

Xoo is just trying to tell you, Noltair, that it is not a good idea. I thought the same thing myself. There could easily be too much pressure on the AP crystals. Just because you are doing the lab doesn't mean people
can't find potential problems or dangers. I have thought that perhaps the ANPANrc is safer than regular APAN for the fact that the rc sounds like it removes the water. Would make the AN less hygroscopic and thus
less acidic? I really like the lab though, Noltair!

The rc addition to the APAN removes the hygroscopic characteristic of AN completely as far as I can tell. I tried a little test about an hour ago with the APrc but it is still not dry enough (there is a little moisture
being held in the middle that will evaporate once the AP starts vaporizing a little and the APrc reaches its 'sticky' state). The APANrc is getting close to dry, it is in a solid block now that is soft in just a few places.
I will give the both of them until tomorrow evening then the tests will procede.
Also the rc makes the AP much less shock sensitive due to the spongy nature of the mix so the scissors are alright.
Anthony September 20th, 2002, 08:46 PM

Cutting the RC is no problem, but even though it's shock absorbing and whatever, there's still solid crystals of AP inside. It's unlikely, but you may happen to catch a crystal directly in the cutting edges of the
scissors, shear it and then the whole mass could detonate.
Of course, you're free to do whatever you want, however you want. Just *possible* dangers should be pointed out for other people who may emulate what you've done.
NoltaiR September 23rd, 2002, 02:24 AM

Alright the fourth status report is up now... I only had time today for a couple small APrc tests so the pics of that is up. Anyways I will post the rest of the tests in the next status report (whenever I have time..
APrc tends to vaporize very slowly so I should be alright).
mistigry September 24th, 2002, 09:35 AM

I'm french and new on this forum, i'd like to know what is rubber ciment and what is it use for ?
Is it like liquid rubber ??? or latex ??
IPN September 24th, 2002, 11:58 AM

This came into mind while looking your pictures (NoltaiR). You dont use any kind of containers (like shell) or case to put the explosive in, you just cut piece of the APrc and stick a fuse in and blow it up meaning no
pressure build up :confused: Why?
(Ps.sorry for my english and if being so stupid!)

That is the beauty of cast or bonded explosives such as this. Containers result in uneven explosions that can only be directed by shaped charges which can be more trouble than they are worth. By using an
explosive that detontates without a container means a fairly even overpressure all the way around. Also you don't have to take the extra time or money to find something to contain it in.
Rat Bastard September 24th, 2002, 10:06 PM

Is it me, or is using DBSP/acetone binded AP a lot better? I have used pingpong balls and rubber cement, but I have found that the DBSP binder works best.
[ September 24, 2002, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

Oh I have no doubt in my mind that DBSP is better simply because your binder contains NG which is more powerful than the AP itself. But the rc idea was simply put together for those who cannot get DBSP for
some reason or another, or simply want a binder that takes less work. Personally I have made a few charges in the past with the DBSP/acetone method, but the power difference really isn't all that noticable,
especially for someone lazy like me who would rather just pour some rc on the AP and stir and then set... then its ready. Also your DBSP/acetone is more moldable than APrc which is an upside for those looking for
a good reason to make DBSP/AP putty rather than my basic APrc.
And idea that just popped into my mind is whether a mix of APAN and DBSP/acetone could be made and deployed without a detonator. Because my APANrc requires a primary charge of APrc or else the APANrc will
simply burn rather than detonate.
I have done a few more tests today but I will wait until I have all of the APrc and APANrc used up before posting my 5th and final status report. Also I have decided against the FAE test simply because there is so
much dry grass where I live and I am not going to take a chance of a grass fire. Instead I am going to buy about 1-2Kg of AN and make some ANFO and see if I can detonate it with APrc as the primary charge and
APANrc as the booster charge; the only confinement to any of these explosives will be that they are going to be partially buried about 2 feet deep. (I don't want to cover it completely incase there is a misfire and I
need to retrieve it.)

Newscaster: '...due to unforseen circumstances beyond our control, this program will no longer air for the remainder of this season... join us next...'
Actually I have some very saddening news.. before I could even use up half of my APrc and APANrc, my nosey parents found it and disposed of it (or so they say)... and by now they know what all of my different
chemicals/compounds look like. So consider this the final status report; I will be once again away from the explosives hobby for a while because I just don't have any time (obviously, because I made the AP last
week and I still haven't used even most of it) with work and all. Maybe someday I will do it again and repeat the lab and finish with a proper status report.
Also if anyone would like to possibly take up where I left off and can take some pics of deploying the explosive and would like to post it on my site, please tell me. I will be more than happy to give credit where it is
due. Thank you.
Devils Sign September 28th, 2002, 06:12 AM

I dont get it why some parents can be such a pain in the ass... U have a really nice documentation there! Maybe you should let them read it and after that they might think different about it. Are they realy
searching for chemicals or explosive devices? My parents say this: If you do such "Dangerous" things, I prefer you do it safe and have everything "under control" than doing it al secret and unsafe wich can lead to
unforseen sequences.
Flake2m October 2nd, 2002, 10:25 AM

if you want to stop your parents from getting into your stuff. I would invest about $50 and buy one of those steel tool boxes. Put the box in you room or wherever and get a big lock put on it, make sure you are the
only person with the key (have 2 keys one kept on you and the other in a secure and safe spot). You then lock up all of your chems and explosive in the bo. (just make sure the explosives and chems are seperate
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Problem solved investment secure :D .
I looked in this thread and you didn't say what amount of rubber cement to AP you used. I want to use a binder for my AP to make it easier to handle.
NoltaiR October 2nd, 2002, 01:22 PM

Oh its over now guys.. and my parents have actually talked to cops before about homemade explosives which just put even more crap in their heads... I will give up explosives testing for a while and focus on the
explosives information pages that I am putting together. I will probably resume my testing in about 6-7 months when I get my own apartment and my parents won't follow me everywhere I go.
edit: and flake2m.. I never actually figured ratios but I have all the weights on documentation page.. so just subtract the weight of the AP before the addition of rc from the weight fo the AP after the addition. But in
any case when you are making it, so long as there is enough rc to cover all the AP, you really can't mess up, because all rc not used to bond will just evaporate. The main thing is to make sure that your APrc is
plenty dry (the best way to check for this is to brake a chunk of the APrc in half and look for moisture).
[ October 02, 2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
EventHorizon October 2nd, 2002, 02:56 PM

I don't know about you but I wouldn't "break" anything containing acetone peroxide.
On a side note, anyone see CSI:Miami the other night. Like a bomber capable of putting together such and device like what was used would use TATP.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > APAN failu re!
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homer johnston S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 05:59 PM

I m ade a large batch of AP, about 1 ounce worth of crystals. I let it sit for about 2hrs, it was still kinda moist though when i
packed it in a PVC pipe. I m ix ed the AP with AN which i got from those instant freeze pack that are used for injuries, and
grinded those AN pellets in a coffe grinder to get a powder. SO all that was in the pipe, and I lit the fuse, but there was no
d e t o n a t i o n . i e x a m ined the pipe later and it turned out that when i put the fuse in, the tape i used to hold it in place stoped
the fuse from burning. so I am gonna try this test again soon. Another thing, I am having a hard tim e finding KNO 3. I live
near San Francisco, C alifornia, in the U S. Does anyone know any stores where i can get 13-0-45 KNO3? Thanks.
<sm a l l > [ S e p t e m b e r 2 9 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 5 : 1 0 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : h o m e r j o h n s t o n ] < / s m a l l >
Eliteforum S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 06:04 PM

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear...
homer johnston S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 06:10 PM

it wasnt that bad actu ally. I made a lot of AP though. and when i took a sm all pin ch of the APAN m ixture, i put it in a napkin,
and lit it on fire. i ran a safe distance, and it made a loud pop. It was like a chinese fire cracker, it wasnt th at loud, but
considering it was a sm all pinch I guess its pretty powerfull.
MrSamosa S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 06:57 PM

Dude- I don't know shit about explosives (since I have not devo ted much of my interest to them ) , b u t I c a n s e e o n e o b v i o u s
t h i n g y o u d i d w r o n g . . . b e s i d e s m a k i n g a d u m b a ss topic as a newbie (read R u l e s ! ! ! ) : f u s e s d o n ' t d e t o n a t e h i g h e x p l o s i v e s . H i g h
explosives require a powerful shockwave, delivered by a blasting cap, in order to detonate ; particularly one as insensitive as
AN. The "pop" you de scribe was m ost likely just the AP deflagrating upon contact with the flam e, not the AN. You can find m o r e
info about blasting caps by a simple search; which you will have plenty of tim e to do once NBK stumbles upon this a trocity.
And also, what nerve you have to ask where to get KNO3!!! Under normal conditio n s , I s u p p o s e t h a t i s a l e g i t i m a t e q u e s t i o n .
But honestly, this has been discussed to death; it has to be in 1 ,000 different threads by now. Using the "Search" button is
perhaps the #1 rule on the Ex plosives & W e a p o n s F o r u m , which you clearly violated.
<sm a l l > [ S e p t e m b e r 2 9 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 0 2 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M r S a m o s a ] < / s m all>
Al Nobel S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 07:48 PM

B y e b y e H o m er
carbonated S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 09:04 PM

If th e AP is high is of a high e nough concentration the APAN will detoante from a fuse, but I'd use a cap just to be sure.
And seriously, do people wait weeks and then not read the rules the whole tim e ? T h e n t h e y c o m e h e r e a n d p o s t s t u pid stuff.
This doesn't even have anything to do with APAN not wo rking, just your fuse not working.
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 10:33 PM

Yes, you'd be amazed but they keep doing it!
I a m not pleased! I've just m o v e d h o u s e a n d m y c o m p u t e r " d e s k " i s a p iece of wood proped on top of m y UPS batteries, which
I a m crouched over and getting back-ache. I'm sat on the edge of my bed, which incidentally is on the floor because I can't be
b o t h e r e d t o r e a s s e m ble it now. It's nearly 3am and I promised m yself that I'd finish reading all the new posts on the forum
before I could jack off and go to sleep.
I'm nearly done and then this shit. W hich I have to stop and deal with. W rite this reply, close the topic, set the system in
m otion of ba nning yo ur sorry arse. All the time the clock ticking away and I have to get up early to morrow!
S o y o u g e t n o s y m p a t h y f r o m m e ! Y e s , I a m taking this out on you, no that isn't fair, but that's life so deal with it, or suck
s o m e dick, whatever you prefer to do.
You have the weakest hole, goodbye!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C alcium Hypochlorite explo -Archive FIle
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megalomania S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 06:40 PM

ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From : V a n c o u v e r , C a n a d a
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 16, 2001 06:16 PM
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Any one here ever tried making calcium hypochlorite + naptha explosive?..
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Explosives Archive
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
posted January 21, 2001 04:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, since nobody replied to this one, im gonna try this torrow..or m y frind is. Ill post the results. I hope it works be cause i can
get the calcium hypochlorite for like10 bucks fo r 2 kg's and if u add an prills it supposidly brings the power up to equivilant
6 o % d y a n m ite
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Explosives Archive
Mr C ool
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 991
From : None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think calcium hypochlorite will b e a powerful enough oxidiser, but feel free to try it and tell us the results.
(sorry I couldn't be m ore help)
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a HE. its supposed to be pretty weak..like less powerful than 40% dynamite without a booster such as AN
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Explosives Archive
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 765
From : S k . C a n a d a
Registered: SEP 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you using 100% CaClO or are you using HTH(60% CaClO)?
------------------
A wise man once said :
"... As He W aits For T h e T i m e W h e n T h e L a s t B e c o m e First And,
The First Shall Becom e last"
--R ATM
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will be using 65% calcium hypochlorate
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Explosives Archive
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited February 11, 2001).]
rjche
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 52
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be very careful testing calcium hypochlorite mixtures. They tend to spontaneously ignite.
Many chemicals have the warning on them powerful oxidizer, do not mix or store with combustible stuff.
This one means it.
If stored in a refrigerator the chlorine it emits is highly reactive, and will eat up just about any corrodeable m etals.
Mix with sulfur goes in few minutes. Le sser fuels it can go hours days weeks later.
Not a good choice except for certain mixes you have perfected W ITH THE EXACT CHEMICAL you have. They all vary a lot as to
what's in them b e s i d e s t h e m ain ingredient.
Moisture presence causes speed up in going.
it tends to absorb hum idity and decom p o s e .
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 765
From : S k . C a n a d a
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W ell then it could have its own special place; as a chem ical dely(ie.CaClO/Glycerine).
inferno October 3rd, 2002, 05:09 AM

Alen gosvig - Did you do any testing? Any luck?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > whats the next step to take as a pyro
after BP
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Gussios maXimos March 18th, 2002, 05:37 AM

hey i was just wondering what would be a good explosive to m ake after black powder preferably using the disparing method as
m y ball mill has been broken.i was thinking som e touch powder maber using m ercury fulm i n a t e . p l e a s e g i v e m e s o m e t h i n g w i t h
easyily obtained chemicals as i have quite chemistry :( thanks g uys and nice to see the forum is b ack up a nd running
VX March 18th, 2002, 06:33 AM

W e l l y o u c o u l d s p e n d s o m e t i m e reading past posts, particularly one called first e x p l o s i v e o r s o m e thing sim ilar to that. Its in
the m isc section.
If NBK doesn t Ban you, you m ight want to try giving the 'search' button a go!
<sm all>[ March 18, 2 002, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: VX ]

He is not going to ban you.. e verybody has to learn somewhere and it is preffered that you don't get your learning at totse or
weirdpeer (it will pollu te your mind!!).
Anyways, from personal experience, black powder used to be the only thing I wou l d e v e r m a k e . . m ainly because I sim ply ne ver
knew how to make anything else. I used it in rockets, m ortars, fuses, and the occasional m etal firecracker.. its nice stuff to
play with and easy to make, but it often leaves people thinking that they can get by with just doing that.
The next thing that I would have recomm e n d e d f o r y o u w o u l d b e a g o o d f l a s h c o m position of any sort.. you don't really need
to get into all the different m i x e s , b u t i t s g o o d t o h a v e s o m ething that will produce m ore energy than your BP.. once you
realize that BP isn't the greatest thing since playboy, yo u will have the will power to try more powerful compositions.
After that, you need to m ove on to good primary. Picric acid, AP, and HMTD are all relatively easy to m a k e a n d t h e c h e m icals
are readily available if you do a little looking around. Once you have successfully detonated a few good prim ary cha rges, then
just store this knowledge in th e back o f your head because you will need it to make deton ators for your m ore stubborn HEs.
Next is usually som e sort of NH4NO3 m ixture.. relatively easy to get a hold of and can be used for seemingly countless
compositions. Also if your choice of prim ary was AP (and probably PA as well), you m ight want to m a k e a m ix by pressing 10 -
15% of your primary into the NH4NO 3 and trying to detonate, usually this works q uite well and is fairly easy.
O n c e y o u h a v e h a d q u i t e a b i t o f e x p e rience with amm onium nitrate m ixtures, then you are ready to take a look at the m a n y
HE inform ation sources (plenty on the FTP) and try to find one that you can attain the chem s for (and preferably don't attem pt
s o m ething like HNIW right away... you won't ever find the m aterials for this unless you synthesize it yourself). Then from then
on its fun!
(Also you m ight want to bring back your old BP and flash knowledge and make a few pyrotechnical displays.. adding color to
your explosions is always nice)

Continue with H3 and other perchlorate m ixes. If you've used H3, you'll think that BP is fo r pussy's <img border="0" title=""
After that try some KMnO 4 com positions, real powerful, but somewhat m o r e d a n g e r o u s .
mark March 18th, 2002, 09:15 PM

H3 is a very good idea. Matches are fu n if your bored or cheap, and AP is a wonder explosive when your starting out.
Gussios maXimos March 20th, 2002, 05:15 AM

t h a n k s h e a p s g u y s y o u v e b e e n realy helpfull i do work with coulors and making m y own fireworks (since there illeagle here and
i wana be a pyrotechnician) by the way does an yone know where to get good fuse s cos im realy sick of m a k i n g t h e m a n d
useing spaklers?
0EZ0 March 20th, 2002, 06:16 AM

Helvetica">by the way does anyone kn ow where to get good fuses cos im realy sick of making them a n d u s e i n g s p a k l e r s ? <hr /></blockquote>Now THAT is som e t h i n g t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n f o u n d
out from a simple search or browse through the archives :rolleyes:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THIS from a newbie?! One who was a step away from being deleted on his very first post?
:rolleyes:
NBK2000
<sm all>[ March 20, 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 1 6 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : n b k 2 0 00 ]
mark March 20th, 2002, 10:17 PM

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com /on/pyrotechnicalities/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/on/
pyro technicalities/index.htm l</a>
lots of helpful how toos on fuse.

0EZ0 March 20th, 2002, 10:54 PM

Ok NBK i get the m essage. Sorry :o
As for fuse, i have be en to Ro cky before. I kno w i went past a few "outdoor sportm an" stores <im g border="0" title=""
alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> It has been discussed before that fuse in Australia is available in Gun Shops. U sually sold under
t h e n a m e "W aterproof cannon fuse". Hope it helps. :)

Ahhh... so th e o l ' b o y n b k h a s a s e n c e of hum or after a ll.. :p

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > NaCLO3/vaseline charge -Archive File
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megalomania September 29th, 2002, 06:50 PM

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found soemting interesting on the net today, it was a person's attempt at detonating NaCLO3/vaseline with AP. Of course I
would never do this myself because it would be illegal. From here on I speak as the person that did this stuff purely becuse it
is easier to read
850gm of NaCLO3 was powdered by hand (which took god damn ages)and mixed with 100gm of vaseline to give
approximately the 9:1 mix suggest by KIPE. It was impossible to kneed into the chlorate and just made a big mess so I
melted the vaseline in a hot water bath which made things easier. The finnished mix was stuck together but crumbled so I
reckon you'd need more vaseline if want an actual plastique.
The top was cut off a dissposable CO2 welding cylinder and a few hole drilled near the top to allow the top to be reattached by
some strips of metal.
The detonator was made from a 9" length of 22mm copper pipe. plugged at one end with Jb weld metal putty stuff, the other
end would be sealed by a 22mm copper cap which was put onto the end of the pipe and drilled all the way through so that a
bolt could be pushed through to hold the cap on (this allowed the detonator to be filled at the blast site). The cap was drilled
through the top and a length of visco tapped in.
The detonator was put into the cylinder and the cylindre was filled with water. It had a capacity of 650ml, requiring a loading
density of 1.3gm/cm this mean I needed to load 850gm of explosive into the canister around the detonator:
I couldn't be bother to cut and drill some strips of metal to attach the top of the canister soI used a couple of bits of Dexion
attached to the canister with screws:
*I've had to break this into two halves because theforum wouldn't post the message because it claimed I had over the allowed
8 number of images, stupid thing - I've got 6!*
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited January 01, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After walking a fair way to the test site we found a spot at the side of a lake, after an hour of digging into clay/gravel/frozen
soil with a plastic trowel it was starting to get dark so we decided to just use the pretty shallow hole as is. The top of the
canister was removed and the cap taken off the detonator. AP was poured into the detonator and compressed with my finger
(eep!). The "bomb" was put back together, placed into the hole and the soil packed around it:
The fuse was light and much running was done, about 25 seconds later there was a loud explosion that echoed about 5 times
(off god knows what, it was just a lake!). Running back to the hole revealed a partical detonation, only the explosive around
the detonator (most of the charge) had detonated, the stuff below the detonator hadn't:
I pulled the remain of the bottom of the cylinder out of the hole, this comfirmed that the bottom of the chrage hadn't gone off
(the explosive underneath the detonator was packed mcuh to hard in the frist place):
A while into inspected the remains, the top oft he canister finally returned to earth and splashed down into the lake.
In conclusion, I would use a more sensitive/less messy explosive and use a detonator with AP pressed to the correct density
and preferably with a booster such as picric acid. I think ANNM would be worth investigating as it's so much easier to prepare,
more sensitive and more powerful.
Fuck, it's too late, I've put this in the wrong god damn section, that's it, I'm going to bed.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuck this now the fucking pictures won't fucking well load! this is fucking me off, I'm going the fuck to fucking bed!
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought it was just my PC. The first one shows, but the rest won't. Anyway, keep up the good work, i like it when people find
images and stories relating to the topics we theoretically discuss here
------------------
Visit me at <a href="http://www.surf.to/eliteforum" target="_blank">www.surf.to/eliteforum</a>
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, I like pictures too. I cant wait to take pics of my stuff. In the US, can you take pics into a store and have them put them
on a disk for you? Can you do it by yourself, or can people see your pics?
ps The first pic worked for me the second I visited.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited January 01, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
From: somewhere in florida
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
just copy what I typed from my edit page anthony:
I found soemting interesting on the net today, it was a person's attempt at detonating NaCLO3/vaseline with AP. Of course I
would never do this myself because it would be illegal. From here on I speak as the person that did this stuff purely becuse it
is easier to read
850gm of NaCLO3 was powdered by hand (which took god damn ages)and mixed with 100gm of vaseline to give
approximately the 9:1 mix suggest by KIPE. It was impossible to kneed into the chlorate and just made a big mess so I
melted the vaseline in a hot water bath which made things easier. The finnished mix was stuck together but crumbled so I
reckon you'd need more vaseline if want an actual plastique.
The top was cut off a dissposable CO2 welding cylinder and a few hole drilled near the top to allow the top to be reattached by
some strips of metal.
The detonator was made from a 9" length of 22mm copper pipe. plugged at one end with Jb weld metal putty stuff, the other
end would be sealed by a 22mm copper cap which was put onto the end of the pipe and drilled all the way through so that a
bolt could be pushed through to hold the cap on (this allowed the detonator to be filled at the blast site). The cap was drilled
through the top and a length of visco tapped in.
The detonator was put into the cylinder and the cylindre was filled with water. It had a capacity of 650ml, requiring a loading
density of 1.3gm/cm this mean I needed to load 850gm of explosive into the canister around the detonator:
I couldn't be bother to cut and drill some strips of metal to attach the top of the canister soI used a couple of bits of Dexion
attached to the canister with screws:
*I've had to break this into two halves because theforum wouldn't post the message because it claimed I had over the allowed
8 number of images, stupid thing - I've got 6!*
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited January 02, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After walking a fair way to the test site we found a spot at the side of a lake, after an hour of digging into clay/gravel/frozen
soil with a plastic trowel it was starting to get dark so we decided to just use the pretty shallow hole as is. The top of the
canister was removed and the cap taken off the detonator. AP was poured into the detonator and compressed with my finger
(eep!). The "bomb" was put back together, placed into the hole and the soil packed around it:
The fuse was light and much running was done, about 25 seconds later there was a loud explosion that echoed about 5 times
(off god knows what, it was just a lake!). Running back to the hole revealed a partical detonation, only the explosive around
the detonator (most of the charge) had detonated, the stuff below the detonator hadn't:
I pulled the remain of the bottom of the cylinder out of the hole, this comfirmed that the bottom of the chrage hadn't gone off
(the explosive underneath the detonator was packed mcuh to hard in the frist place):
A while into inspected the remains, the top oft he canister finally returned to earth and splashed down into the lake.
In conclusion, I would use a more sensitive/less messy explosive and use a detonator with AP pressed to the correct density
and preferably with a booster such as picric acid. I think ANNM would be worth investigating as it's so much easier to prepare,
more sensitive and more powerful.
Fuck, it's too late, I've put this in the wrong god damn section, that's it, I'm going to bed.
there I fixed it for ya (PYRO500)
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited January 02, 2001).]
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony,the person on the net who attempted this could try compressing the AP with a press;the det. vel. is increased
considerably.I saw pic.'s on the net of a large baby food jar of of this compound shot with a compressed compound
det.(HMTD/Picric)in the center of a large parking lot;no signs of the lid,jar,or expl. were found.
------------------
"There can be only one!"
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that the stuff you made up in your charge really detonated....
The amount you made (950g- NEARLY ONE KG) Shouls have left a REAL BIG crater and sent off a large shockwave....
The fact that most of your mixture had gone after it made boom is probably only cause it has flown away... Your detonator is
something that i would have called a bomb of its own and it's powerfull enough to shatter the case and evaporate or throw
away most of the contents of your charge...
If it has just been blasted off, it's now superfine white dust....
I don't think your bomb really worked.. sorry
------------------
Death stalks silently....
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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Thanks Pyro500! I would liked to have pressed the AP but the situation didn't aloow it. How much straight AP (no booster)
should I need to detonate NaCLO3 and pressed to what density?
Would something like a bean tin or jar provide enough confinement? these heavy duty steel containers are a pain to work
with.
Can anyone recommend a better sensitizer than vaseline, soemthing solid that I could just mix in, or maybe a liquid? I've got
a bottle of 20% NM racing fuel?
Nightstalker, I think you're right, when I looked at the pictures I knew it hadn't worked as well as it appeared on site, you can
see lumps of white explosive scattered about in the picture.
Thanks for the input guys I'm sure the guy is determined to try again untill it works!
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
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Ok....
If one day he suceeds tell me I would be very interested in the results of such a charge working....
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Bandit
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Posts: 82
From: U.K.
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Go to <a href="http://www.f-3.org.uk/~fs/" target="_blank">http://www.f-3.org.uk/~fs/</a> do a search for sodium chlorate,
they have quite a few files for other things as well.
Bandit
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
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Perhaps Al powder would work as a sensitizer?
J
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
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Great pics!
I think a lot of the compression was lost, due to the fact that the cylinder lid was blown off. Maybe the NaClo3 charge partially
detonated, but it's a shame that the rest didn't, as 1KG of it all detonating would be spectacular. Maybe it would have all
detonated, if the cylinder lid was on really tight. Could you have used petrol as a sensitizer? Or maybe you could even mix
some AP in with the NaClo3? I'm not really fond on using NaClo3 as a secondary explosive, as I hate to see good explosives
go down the drain, or up in the air, in this case.
Bandit
Frequent Poster
Posts: 82
From: U.K.
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Ive zipped up a few interesting files. some on NaCO3 <a href="http://www.geocities.com/banditsfiles/Swat.zip"
target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/banditsfiles/Swat.zip</a>
Bandit
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 403
From: England
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i know it would be extremely dangerous to carry around 1kg of chlorate flash, but how much easier would that be to detonate?
Seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard, only problem being that you have to have enough balls to carry this around.
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ALENGOSVIG1
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From: Vancouver, Canada
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IN one of ragnars books it claims potassium chlorat/sugar can be detonated
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Explosives Archive
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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Anthony,a while back I posted a suggestion about compressing the AP,but I failed to post this info:If you're going to compress
it,use an improvised 2 by 4 press (like the design in TM 31-210) so you are good and far away if an accident happens.I
recently acquired a newfound respect for AP after a friend of mine made his first few batches with HCl instead of sulfuric.He
dropped a match on a 3/16th. by 1/16th.speck that had fallen to the floor and it popped like a firecracker.I became rather
nervous when I realized that if the entire batch he had went up at once(4 batches of 200ml.27% H202/150ml.Acetone/
50ml.HCl)it would probably level his basement!(he does keep it seperated in small quantities,though).
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"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"
10fingers
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*
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 19, 2001).]
vehemt
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From: Canada
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For 1 kilo of flash, prepare it on site in small batches.
Moving to HE Forum
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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Thanks guys, I will try again soon with a sonsiderably smaller, compressed cap, I was think of 2gm of AP pressed onto of 2-
5gm of picri acid. I was going to press it in a vice with a sandbag on top, but what's a 4x2 press? All I can guess is that it uses
4x2's.
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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I don't know how well I can describe it,but I'll give it a try.Have you ever seen the 'Bent Over Row' machines bodybuilders use?
.Same basic principle.You need a base(2 by 6 or wider,8 or 10 feet long),two 8 inch long segments of 2 by 4,and an 8 or 10
foot long 2 by 4(for the press lever).Connect the short 2 by 4's(standing on end) to one end of the 2 by 6 by running some
screws up through the bottom.Then drill a hole through the 2 by 4's,bolt the lever on.Attatch the lever(on edge)to the 2 by 4
uprights with a bolt,nut.Did I forget to mention the dowel?.Attach a dowel rod(matching the I.D. of your det. case)to the
bottom edge of the lever(8 inches from the uprights)to press the explosive into the detonator.Then drill a hole in the base to
set the det. cases into,making sure it's perfectly aligned with the dowel.It's a very basic design,but works well.Also,make the
lever 2 feet longer than the base,then attach a blast shield to the forward end of the base.The picture's not very
accurate,sorry.You need to make the dowel long enough that the lever clears the blast shield,still reaches the detonator.
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[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited January 23, 2001).]
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
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Crud!.when my info was posted,everything got shifted,making the stick pic's disappear.Could someone with a scanner send
Anthony some proper pictures?.
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
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It's OK, I got what you mean from the description, a good idea and shouldn't take long to knock up and you stay a decent
distance from the explosive being pressed.
One more question, does the AP *need* tp be pressed to initiate the picric acid in a metal det casing? Will AP puty not be
dense enough?
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
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I've read about improvised bombs that were used after the liberation of Turkish joke by some bulgarian anarchists and
revolutionairs. They were composed of steel container filled with KClO3 and sugar, not sure for the proportion but everyone
could calculate it (detonation products - KCl, H2O and CO2). It's said that this explosives is very sensitive and explodes easily
with blasting cap or fuse cord. It is said that it also is not too sensitive to be used in large quantities. I think this formula will
also work with NaClO3, but not completely sure, you could try it(i haven't got NaClO3, if I had I would 100%try this) but be
careful while working with this...
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 1st, 2002, 05:41 AM

Has anyone actually detonated this mix? reliably? or does it require confinement to ensure detonation?
on a _slightly_ different note, can anyone tell me if KNO3 and vaseline would work? (with an acceptable blasting cap of course)
just a thought
its a good idea to bring old ideas/posts up, allows us to make new approaches that we might not have taken
Anthony October 1st, 2002, 11:10 AM

Damn, I was hoping this thread (well my posts in it) wouldn't get viewed... Look at all those mistakes!
The only chlorate mix I've ever gotten to detonate was NaClO3 + Nitromethane. With vaseline and parafin it didn't work.
Although some people have supposedly gotten it to.
I'd be interested if you got vaseline + KNO3 to work, as it'd mean that the NaNO3/diesel I want to try would work!
sinstar October 1st, 2002, 12:17 PM

Me and a friend(who is a member of this forum)detonated NaClo3 and vaseline with a few grams of HMTD(my favourite
primary), well I say detonated it was more of a half detonation as there were bits splattered just about evreywhere, but I know
why, for a start it was not loaded to the correct density(no scales at the time)and second it was in a brasso tin, not the most
ideal container in the world. But the stuff that splattered we lit it and it was very very bright. As for the NaClo3 and suger
explosive I think the ratio is 3-2, NaClo3/suger, however I got that ratio from the white resistance manual and IMO I don't find
to trustworthy.
[ October 01, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: sinstar ]
vulture October 1st, 2002, 12:33 PM

Having the balls to carry around 1kg of chlorate flash he? How close comes preparing 200g batches of KMnO4/Al/S? If I ever
find a suitable site (pain in the ass here, too densily populated) I might try to detonate/burn large quantities of flash.
However, suppose the flash doesn't detonate but get's scattered around by the det, would it still ignite from explosion heat?
-> don't want to waste large quantities of flash, as I got quite good Al powder which is expensive and might be hard to find
one day.
On the subject of KClO3/sugar: From personal experience I know that well mixed dry KClO3/sugar 70/30 burns faster than BP.
If you want a stoichiometric mix for the det, here's the equation: 16KClO3 + 2C12H22O11 -> 16KCl + 24CO2 + 22H2O.
This means that per mole of sugar 23 moles of gas are produced. Pretty good.
[ October 01, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 1st, 2002, 06:59 PM

well i'm about to produce the first batch of AP for a looong while, and i'll mix up some KNO3/vaseline and confine it, when i get
a good chance to detonate it i'll tell you all about it (if it works and pics) i was trying to think WHY it wouldn't work, but i can't
think of any at the moment (not to say there isn't a glaring one that will rear its ugly head when i do this) but if this mix does
work then i'll be more then a bit happy, as i'll be able to save someone a few bob by removing a tree-stump with it (he wants
it GONE but not burnt)
i might be able to re-coup the cost of this F*(KING EXPENSIVE KNO3

that i bought (99.999% pure, but at about 200% the price :( )
Madog555 October 1st, 2002, 10:10 PM

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/madog555/PC.html" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/madog555/PC.html</a>
this is pics of 100g of KClO3/sugar/vaseline, i foret the ratios. i wonder if the sugar is a reason why it worked.
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 2nd, 2002, 10:39 AM

just a few questions....
how deep was that crater?

what were the dimensions of the tin?
thickness of tin/container?
detonator charge? (ap or hmtd ?)
sorry to ask so many questions :o but i'd like to know as I may soon have enough KCLO3 to do this... and I like to know what
its cappable of :D
Out of interest, should i mix the KCLO3 and sugar is stoichiometric amounts, or should i use slightly less sugar, and rely on
the vaseline ?
Anthony October 2nd, 2002, 04:14 PM
I'm not sure of your source of KClO3, but if you're converting it from NaClO3 weedkiller, have you considered just using the
NaClO3 as is?
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 2nd, 2002, 06:07 PM

that was actually the source :p as the local general store is selling 10kg bags of the stuff (with a fair amount of fire
suppressant :(
but i have a good source of hot water and KCL so i'm happy, i have an interesting way of removing the fire suppressent from
NACLO3 btw, i used DRYCLEANING FLUID
(perchlorethane or Perc as its known) this removes about 99% of the NACL with only a minimal loss to the NACLO3 that is
treated. I can't seem to reclaim the perc from the solution. its too cheap to distil it (and it can get you high at _remarkably_
low conc) and i know that the vapour is a tad dangerous (even for me).
I know that i'll get higher power from the KCLO3, so for a bit more effort on my part i end up with a more impressive result....
if i needed some quick hi-ex then i would just use NACLO3
on another note, if i was to use a limited amount of sugar and K/NACLO3 with vaseline, would the power generated by the
smaller amount of sugar be enough to "crack" the petroleum chains and supply us with more bang (i'm making a guess here
that the vaseline isn't just acting as a binder) i say this from the view-point of activation energies... a high input from the
small mix of weedkiller/sugar which allows the rest of the weedkiller to oxidise/react with the vaseline that can now break-down
into useful components.
zaibatsu October 3rd, 2002, 01:59 PM

Earlier on theforum, there was a big debate as to whether NaClO3/Vaseline would detonate, and in that thread the topic of
NaClO3/Sugar came up, and it is alleged to be easier to detonate. So I would try that first if I was you, it'd certainly be nicer to
handle (Plus buying large amounts of sugar will get you less funny looks than buying lots of vaseline)
vir sapit qui pauca loquitur October 3rd, 2002, 07:09 PM

well this weekend i will test both my NACLO3/sugar and KNO3/vaseline/bit of sugar mix, i'll det with a few grams of ap, i'm just
trying to find a suitable place as i live in a city and that means either a park at night (crap pictures) or next-door's garden
i dont think they'll like fluffy becoming the next catsputnik <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
THe_rEaL_dEaL January 15th, 2003, 03:11 PM

Hey all
How much success has been had when synthing chlorates via Calcium Hypochlorite + metal salt (eg NACL/KCL)?
Do you recommend this method for large batches, say over 1 KG?
I originally came across this method at Wouter Visser pyrotechnics site
zeocrash January 15th, 2003, 04:00 PM

From my memories of chlorate/sugar it just burns rapidly and smokes alot. does this explosive actually require a blasting cap
to ignite. i was thinking that maybe the NACLO3 / sugar might be igniting and generating enough heat to start
the reaction of vaselene with the chlorate. if this was so you could ignite it with a straw full of chlorate sugar mix, or a piece of
MG ribon (expensive).
I have seen a few recipies for this before, i noticed on one that it also added parafin wax to the mixture, this may affect the
detonation as well as the consistancy.
Oh yeah to remove the fire retardant from chlorate weedkiller, you just need to put it through a sieve, the retardant crystals
are considerably larger than the chlorate crystals
Anthony January 15th, 2003, 05:02 PM

Back up a bit there Zeocrash.
Firstly, the fire retardent is the small particles, and the NaClO3 crystals, the large. If you've been throwing away the big stuff,
you've got yourself a nice collection of NaCl <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Chlorate/vaseline and Chlorate/sugar both require a blasting cap and probably a booster too, to detonate. They won't make
the deflageration to detonation transition from an ignition source.
Parafin wax is added to give the finished explosive a more putty-like texture. Chlorate/vaseline alone is a gooey mess.
nbk2000 January 15th, 2003, 07:11 PM

Or just skip the vaseline entirely and use parraffin to make it castable.
s4r1n January 8th, 2007, 09:29 PM

I have successfully detonated both chlorate/sugar and chlorate/vaseline usinq 1g HMTD in old brass cartridge case as
detonators. I followed the instructions in TM 31-210. These 'charges' were housed in cardboard tubes (bog roll) and I found
the chlorate/sugar gave a better bang. I haven't experimented with these substances for about 18 years, but I think it's about
time I did.
nbk2000 January 9th, 2007, 04:17 PM
And how old are you implying you are by the statement "I haven't...18 years", and then choose an L33+ name like s4r1n?
:rolleyes:
Necromancy is a crime. Let dead threads rest in peace unless you've got something OVERWHELMINGLY relevant to add.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > diff acetylene
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electric emu April 3rd, 2002, 05:07 PM

I a m thinking about m a k i n g s o m e C o p p e r a c e t y l i d e a n d t h e l a s t c h e m ical i need is acetylene, i have 2 sources. one is m y
friend read you could make it with bleach and acid, i did a search and found nothing about that m ethod, the other source is
t h e s a m e friend has a torch filled with about 40% acetylene and the rest propane, would the propa ne m ess up the reaction?
forgot to say i cant get any calcium carbide that why i have to do this <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
<sm all>[ April 03, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: electric em u ]</sm all>
endotherm April 3rd, 2002, 05:24 PM

tanks with pure acetylene are rather abundant as they are comm only used in welding applications, i have never seen them
used with propane,
- bleach and acid? m a y b e y o u 'll get so me wondefully toxic chlorine gas
<sm all>[ April 03, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]</sm all>
kingspaz April 3rd, 2002, 05:38 PM

m aking it with acid?!
h m m m ...
CaC2 + H2SO4 ---> C2H2 + C a S O 4
s o a cids can be used in place of water i'd expect, well to m ake it from calcium carbide...
since your from the m oon there should be caving supply places nearby selling it for the ca rbide caving lam ps.
the propane shouldn't affect the reaction so long as the solution doesn't contain concentrated acid. i don't think propane is
that reactive (apart from with oxidisers! :rolleyes: ).
also copper acetylide is very sensitive, again i havent; made this stuff so i can't say how sensitive, i know its m uch m ore
sensitive than the silver salt which is a far better choice!
edit: what the fuck?...i didn't see the bleach bit.....sounds like som e k3\/\/\/l crap.
edit 2!: i also just realised thats practically your first post (i strongly advise you read the forum rules), no m ore new topics until
you have proven yourself and contributed!
<sm all>[ April 03, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]

He tried it and thought it worked because i heard pure acetylene burns with black suite and his mix (acid did that, but after the
m a y b e a c e t y l e n e h a d s t o p p e d c o m ing he said it also made chlorine gas which he recognized by the green. the prop a n e /
acetylene tank was cheaper than real acetylene and it is in a disposable tank, but it say 41% acetylene on the tank so m a y b e i
should just try a small amount.

He said he found the bleach thing in his school science book. (i adm it im from t h e U S , t o b a d n o m o o n )

o k n o m ore new topics, but it wasnt ex actly my first post
thought i needed a sig
Zambosan April 3rd, 2002, 06:06 PM

Gosh, you're right... it was your second. And in the wrong section. And after that spurt of three posts in rapid succession,
foregoing the "edit post" button entirely, you're up to a grand to tal of 5! :rolleyes:
...I think I hear NBK coming... (hides and puts on shades to watch the fireworks... :cool: )
<sm all>[ April 03, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Zam b o s a n ] < / s m all>

actually its m y footsteps :D
e m u, get rid of that bullshit waste of space sig, and stop posting shit. like i said, read the rules an d stop posting crap (like two
1 lin e answers in succession). think before you post!
this is an official warn ing.
ANY MORE CRAP AND YOU WILL BE BANNED :m a d :

i'm not in a good mood.
edit: i'm leaving this open as its a topic which i feel nee ds discussion.
<sm all>[ April 03, 2002, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Sorry i didnt think m uch and i just found out my friend is a dum b a s s
h e s h o w e d m e t h e b o o k a n d i t i s a d e m onstration showing how chlorine reacts with acetylene and it shows the bleach and acid
m aking chloring gas and then theres a piece of calcium carbide at the bottom of the container its connected to, but im still
wondering about his part acetylene/propane tank, its ca lled m ethyl acetylene propadiene stabilized and i still have no access
to a real acetylene tank.
Anthony April 3rd, 2002, 08:35 PM

Ah, MAP gas.
I don't think it is just a m i x t u r e o f p r o p a n e a n d a c e t y l e n e t h o u g h , s o u n d s l i k e a c o m p o u n d o f a c e t y l e n e .
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 11:13 PM

It helps if you use the proper abbrevia tion.
MAPP = methylacetylene-propadiene
You could try it, but I doubt it will work.
And you're about one beat of a gnats wing from g e t t i n g b a n n e d .
I'd strongly recom m e n d a g a i n st furthur posting s till you've read som e p o s t s h e r e . I ' d a l s o recom m e n d r e a d i n g t h e " B a n n e d
For Life" section so you can see what your doing wrong here.
And isn't "diff" supposed to be "differe nt"? You could spell out such a sim p l e w o r d a n d s e e m less idiotic.
Bitter April 4th, 2002, 07:11 AM

Most MAPP m ixtures I've seen contain about 70% propane and anout 30% methylacetylene. I think the reason for
m ethylacetylene being used o ver pure acetylen e m ight have something to do with the ability to com press the form er without
the need for acetone.
I don't know if MAPP will work, although I doubt it. That methyl group will probably be hard to shift.
kingspaz April 4th, 2002, 05:48 PM

so, suppose you did have acetylene...
a n y b o d y k n o w the formula of copper acetylide?
we know Ag2C 2...silver replacing the hydrogen i think....i'm actually not sure if thats the formula either...
Cu(NO3)2 + C 2H2 -----> CuC2 (?) + 2HNO3 .....i dunno ......its too late to think!
is it ionic or covelent or both?!
i have absolutely now knowledge at all in this a rea of chemistry so can anybody h e l p ?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AN Fertilizer -Archive File
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megalomania S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 06:58 PM

Detonator
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 132
From :
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I g o t s o m e kinda of fertilizer it says 20% N
I don't know what is it...!
It looks like Am m onium Sulfate (Brown-gray)
How can i find if it's AN??
It doesn't bu rn anyway...m aybe they a d d e d s o m e Am m onium p h o s p h a t e . . .
Any help?
wantsomfet
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 232
From : EU
Registered: JAN 2001
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Pure AN fertilizer will say 32% N, and by the way it won't burn even if pure...
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
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"Nxx%" would indicate the total am ount of nitrogen in the fertilizer
firebreether
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From :
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Pure AN is 35 % Nitrogen! look for a 35-0-0 on the bag
ALENGOSVIG1
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ITS 34 ISNT IT?
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Explosives Archive
Sm artguy
A new voice
Posts: 11
From :
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D i s s o l v e s o m e in water. If it gets R EAL cold, it m ay be AN.
T h e a m m onium ion can be identified by adding NaO H o r KOH to the solu tion. If NH4+ is p resent, you will sm ell am m o n i a .
Nitrates can be identified by what used to be called the 'ring-method'. Dissolve some of the solid to be identified in water. Add
t h e s a m e a m ount of sulphuric acid. No w m a k e a s o l u t i o n o f F e S O 4 i n a t e s t t u b e . U s i n g a p i p e t t e , p l a c e s o m e o f y o u r
s a m plesolution into the testtu b e u n d e r t h e F e S O 4 s o l u t i o n . W hen nitrate s are present, a brown ring will show separating the
layers of liqu ids. (Any nitrate will be reduced to nitrite. The FeSO 4 will be oxidized to Fe2(SO4)3. Together with the nitrite, this
will have a dark brown color.)
Rhadon
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From : Germ a n y
Registered: OC T 2000
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Y o u c a n ' t b e s u r e t h a t y o u h a v e p u r e a m m oniu m nitrate even if you've g ot 35% nitrogen content. My fertilizer contains 35%,
but half of it is potassium n i t r a t e . T h e b r o w n i s h c o l o r i s m a d e b y a s m a l l a m o u n t o f C a C O 3 which has to be removed first, after
doin g so it's white.
Mr C ool
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Posts: 991
From : None of your bloody business!
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W hat you have is very probably nitrate chalk, which is NH4NO 3 a n d C a C O 3. Dissolve it in boiling water to make a sa turated
solution and filter it to rem o v e t h e C a C O 3 , a n d then evapourate the water off the solution to get h ydrated NH4NO 3. Then dry
this in the oven at 90 -100 *C for a few hours. W hen I b uy nitrate chalk, it's always in little balls, 4m m or so in diam eter. Is
this what you have?
Sm artguy
A new voice
Posts: 11
From :
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Mr. Cool is right: that's what I buy too.
(By the way, Detonator: there is no phosphate m ixed in , or it wo uld have stated so on the bag.)
A friend of m ine didn't want to 'clean u p' his fertilizer on one occasion. He just m ixed the prills of nitrate chalc
(cha l k a m monsaltpeter it's called overhere) with the app ropriate am ount of nitrom ethane. Detonated just fine!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > 'Safe' non -m etallic detonator.
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Mr Ketam April 6th, 2002, 07:48 AM

Just a tip:
S o m e tim e a g o s o m eone asked if they could seal a charge of APAN, ANNM whatever, without already placing the detonator in it.
This how we used to do it:
Get som e different packets of drinking straws. Here we get them in different sizes, 4.5 5.0 and 5.5 m m . S e a l t h e e n d o f
bigg est size straw with some tape. Place this otherwise em pty straw in your charge. It can be glued in place in such a way that
there's no way m oisture can get in.
Take another straw, one that fits nicely in the first one, and seal one end with hotglue. Fill it with your favourite prim ary and
fuse it.
Just as youre about to detonate you can slide the detonator in the explosive. Lig ht the fu se....
Advantages: the charge can be sealed without a detona tor in place, there's no ne ed to force a prim ary filled cap through some
HE and finally theres no m etal so there's no scrapnel.
This way we successfully detonated sodium chlorate/lampoil (10:1) APAN (1:5) and ANNM (5:1). Som etimes it is necessary to
u s e a c a p o f 2 0 c m or even longer. Especially with the SC /oil. The finished caps where transported in a strong cardboard tube.
I have some pictures, I will post them as soon as I find out how to do that.
Hope this is helpful.
Yi April 6th, 2002, 08:49 AM

Good idea....BUT you've started 2 threads with your first posts :(. Tut tut tut.
mr.evil April 6th, 2002, 09:13 AM

Hey,
well..another Pyro-m a n f r o m t h e n e t h e r l a n d s : )
what kind of primary/base charge do you use?
you can post some pics by putting them on the internet and give the links.. i would say to use Geocities(qu ick, easy and free..)
Cya
Mr Ketam April 6th, 2002, 01:22 PM

Hello Mr Evil (TheShadow isn't it),
I tried to upload the pics to th e ftp. I failed. R TC can you tell how to do it?
mr.evil April 6th, 2002, 01:40 PM

Hello mr.Ketam
how did you know my other nicknam e? do i know you? :) maybe Frans L?
W hy don't you put the pics on an Website, it isn't much work..can't wait to see the pics..
BTW . Check your e-m ail.

Hello,
here you can find the pictures of the 'straw detonator' <img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink ]" src="wink.gif" />
<a href="http://www.geocities.com /evilpics2000/m r.html?1018253139580" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/

evilpics2000/mr.htm l ? 1 0 1 8 2 5 3 1 3 9 5 8 0 < / a >
Cya
0EZ0 April 8th, 2002, 07:46 AM

Don't mean to be a wet blanket, but would static be a problem with the 'straw detonator'?
There was an accident i had with a device prematurely d etonating from static, so i am a little wary of such things happening
again.
If static is a problem then maybe use rolled wa x paper as a substitute for the straw?
<sm all>[ April 08, 2002, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</sm all>

'well, i use always plastics, never had any problem ... i suggest to just touch the plastic before you put explosives in it.
o r y o u r o l l s o m e p a p e r t u b e s , a n d u s e t h e s a m e technic as mr.Ketam (paper instead of plastic)
Cya
Celtick April 8th, 2002, 07:59 AM
Hey,
Mr Ketam & Mr evil since Im out of school Im not able to get m a n y C h e m s, I'm trying to get some from m y buddy's in HLO
stud ies and such. Maybe you can tell my witch kind of products (Dutch Brand nam es?)you use and were you got them ?

Hello Celtick(i think i know you from m sn)
i d o n ' t u s e a n y h o u s e h o l d c h e micals, as they aren't pure... i get my chemicals at friends, and belgium(in belgium there are
alot of drugstores who sell chemicals..without any questions)
sorry man <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
Cya

Yeah,
R e m embert asking you the same on Msn --> jan klaas de paashaas

jan klaas de paashaas --> The easter bunny! :D
wel, you can find in dutch drugstores som ething like:

Tendo's glycerine, Acetone, H2O2, Alcohol etc.
just search!
Cya

Yes, got those from "DA - Drogist" :)
i'm trying to order som e H202 35% fro m a hairdresser

i got m y H2O 2 30% also from the DA drugstore, it doesn't stand in the store, you h a v e t o g o n n a a sk for it... in belgium it is
lots cheaper, about 4 for 1L 30%
Cya

H 2 O 2 should n e v e r b e a p r o b l e m .
Farm e r s h o p s ( B o e r e n bond etc) sell a desinfectend that's 50% H2O 2 and nothing else. It's called Aqua Clean or som e t h i n g l i k e
that.
They also sell big bottles of Iodine tincture, jerrycans with phosh orus acid and DCM.
All this stuff is on the shelfs, you don't need to ask! Read some labels.
BTW , these stores also got pig-tranqulisers and and the needles witch you need when you ' r e g o n n a u s e t h e m . What fun can
be had with those.....
Gna, gna, gna....
<sm all>[ April 08, 2002, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Mr Ketam ]</sm all>
Zambosan April 8th, 2002, 04:37 PM

Mr. Ketam: those pig tranquilizers wouldn't hap p e n t o b e k e t a m i n e , w o u l d t h e y ?

F u n n y y o u s h o u l d a s k . A s a m atter of fact, it isn't.
Ketamine of the shelf, wouldn't that be great!!

No, our ketam ine also com es from Mexico or from vets with m o n e y p r o b l e m s.
I'm not com pletely sure what it is, but I think it was a benzo or it might be a tricyclic. No fun anywa y. At least no fun to take
yourself...
You want me to check it out?

No, no, thanks anywa ys. :)
No personal interest, just a cheeky question. :D
nbk2000 April 9th, 2002, 08:00 PM

I've read tha t in Nepal, you can buy ANY drug OTC without a prescription. Morphin e , k e t a m ine, rohypnol, whatever. And it's
CHEAP.
:D
Thin k I'll have to stop by there during my world tour.
Arkangel April 9th, 2002, 09:37 PM

You wouldn't like it, too many muds fo r you m ethinks :rolleyes:
However, you can get pretty m uch anything you want otc. Bought shitloads of antibiotics there to bring home e.g. 100x200m g
doxycycline about $1. Not sure about morphine and stuff, however, in Asia, it's co m m on practice in hospitals that a doctor will
tell the patient what drugs the y n e e d , a n d t h e f a m i l y t h e n h o p o ff to the Pharm acy down the road to get it.....if they can afford
it. O therwise they just die.
If you want to know for certain about the Morphine I'll ask a (m ud) friend out there.
I do know that you can buy the bestest, sweetest hash I have EVER had there. :D
(btw, wasn't this thread about sexy detonator ideas? Anyone got anything to add on that?)
<sm all>[ April 09, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</sm all>
mark April 9th, 2002, 11:09 PM

I t s a g r e a t i d e a . I d p e r s o n a l y u s e a q u a r i u m tubing as you can b uy it in wider diameters, but this idea is very clever. Kudos.
andreas April 16th, 2002, 09:39 AM

m an this is becom ing a dutch thread m a y b e w e s h o u l d g e t e a c h o t h e r e m a i l a d r e s s e s a s p e o p l e w i t h t h e s a m e interests are
difficult to find.
m ine is kram rak@hotmail.com

Hello,
i've just added you to m y m sn m essenger list.... please don't call e-mail adresses here(accept the one in my profile)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP -archive file
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megalomania October 7th, 2002, 02:54 PM

fatboyvegastj
A new voice
Posts: 8
From :
p o s t e d D e c e m ber 12, 2000 03:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does Ap really need to be coo led down during the reaction? Thanks
PhatBoy
extrem e
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 102
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think youll cooling it down because you dont want the acetone to boil, but im no t sure so please correct m e if I'm wrong.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it boils you're fucked. You need to cool the solution b elow 5*C otherwise you'll get the dicyclo ve rsion, yo u want the tricyclo
which is more stable and powerful.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well catually i don't th ink the DCAP version of AP form s at ANYTHING over 5 celcious. i think at elevated tem ps it does. (a little
high er than 5 degrees C.) but yes keeping the reaction cooled is essential. that is how you produce the tricycloacetone
peroxide. this is more stable AND is more poweful. this is what you want, this is what you strive for.
------------------
...
Arthis
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 203
From :
Registered: OC T 2000
posted Decem ber 12, 2000 12:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logically, the TCAP will be more powerful. Norm al as the m ol. is bigger.
I didn't know for the 5C: are you sure , b e c a u s e m y AP is not 5C (m ayb e 10-15 C, I never check ) , a n d s e e m s to be very
stab le.
If you don't cool AP you'll have tear gas, and your yield will be VERY VERY low, if you get any cristals, I'm not sure, it depends
the quantity of acid you put.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From : England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could be wrong, I was typing from m e m ory, 5*C is about fridge tem p e r a t u r e t h o u g h . 1 0 - 1 5 d e g r e e s C d o e s s o u n d
reasonable.
CragHack
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 606
From :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a s a rule of thumb, keep it as cool as you can get it without com pletely freezing the stuff. thats it. thats all there is to it.
------------------
...
Microtek
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 194
From :
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I usually just cool it with cold tap water
( a b o u t 8 d e g r e e s ) , a n d I n e v e r h a v e a n y p r o b l e m s. I just pour roughly equal amounts o f a c e t o n e a n d 4 0 % H 2 O 2 i n t o a
drinking glass add a few m l of 30% HCl stir 10 sec and let it stand overnight. It seem s strange to m e that you all use so m uch
acid.
I don't think I get DC AP since a Trauzl-block te st of my AP gave alm o s t t h e s a m e result a s HMTD (there aren't any inferior
HMT D variations right?).
IPN October 8th, 2002, 09:14 AM

Here is a link where you can find information on the pre paration of tetracycloacetoneperoxide which is m ore powerfu l and stabil
than the dim eric and trim eric form s.
(Ps. sorry for m y english.)
The link:
------------------------------------------------
Tried to cut down the length of the link but couldn't - fixed it by adding a www
PDF File ( http://www.rsc.org/C FCart/displayarticlefree.cfm ?article =8%2D9 % 2 2 3 % 2 4 % 5 D 2 % 5 C

B%218%27%5D%5CY%28%3E%3C%2 3S5%3D8%3DP%20P%3D29%23% 3C%0A)
<sm all>[ October 08, 2002, 12:42 PM: Messag e edited by: zaibatsu ]</sm all>
Aaron-V2.0 October 9th, 2002, 01:28 AM

I cant get the link to work, at all! So ju st take the [PDFFile out of the link above and C &P (Though everyone figured that out
quick. :rolleyes: )
I'll just upload the .pdf to C trl_C's FTP and for anyone without FTP access who's interested you can file a copy of the . p d f o n m y
very em pty <a href="http://aaronewf.tripod.com" target="_blank">site</a>.
<sm all>[ October 09, 2002, 12:35 AM: Messag e edited by: Aaron-V2.0 ]</sm all>
nbk2000 October 9th, 2002, 05:07 AM

In order to get the tetrameric form by using the SnCL4*5H2O , you need to use something that'll
a b s o r b t h e f r e e d m etal ions. That could be EDTA or, m o r e r e a d i l y a v a i l a b l e a s a p h o t o d e v e l o p i n g a g e n t , h y d r o q u i n o n e .
HQ is also useful as a stabilizer for acrolein.
<sm all>[ October 09, 2002, 04:12 AM: Messag e e d i t e d b y : n b k 2 0 0 0 ] < / s m all>
knowledgehungry October 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 5 : 3 8 P M

I n r e s p o n s e t o t h e t e m p a r a t u r e o f A P s y n t h e s i s , I k n e w s o m e o n e who knew som e o n e e t c . t h a t m i x e d t h e a c e t o n e , h y d r o g e n
peroxide and sulfuric acid together keeping the temp. below 20 C . He en ded up with a m e d i u m am ount of crystals which
b e h a v e d a s A P n o r m ally would, i was wondering if using the sulfuric instead of the HC l was what allowed this reaction to occur
better than would be predicted? Thanks for any ideas you have to give
Flying D utchman October 14th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 7 : 1 5 P M

I use HCl and I only have to cool my solution in the beginning.
It stays under 10.0 C all the time!
but what I do and advice is to first cool your H2 O 2 a n d a c e t o n i n a salt ice bath. rem e m ber it's your safety you prob ably don 't
g e t a s e c o n d chance.
TheBear D e c e m ber 23rd, 2002, 04:05 PM

I guess i beat you all (in the temperature point of view that is) 0.5-1 degrees celsius constantly for three days. I ad d aceton e
in about 10 portions to the H2O2and m a k e s u r e t h e t e m p i s b a c k a t 1 C b e f o r e a d d i n g n e x t
portion, the temp never goes above 4 degrees celsius during the addition. I use relatively little acid and let it react for three
d a y s ( I c o n s u m e h u g e a m ounts of ice!). Then I wash it really good and let it dry. Result: fine crytals and not that volatile
substanse.
I ' v e a l s o b e e n t r y i n g t o m a k e a n o x y g e n b a l a n ced APAN mixture and I found that the OB balanced m ix is 11,7% AP + 88,3%.
Is this correct?
Anyway: Does anyone know where to find the density for 19.5% H2O2?
I would really like to know.
<sm all>[ Decem b e r 2 3 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 0 8 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : T h e B e a r ] < / s m a l l >
Arthis D e c e m ber 25th, 2002, 12:36 PM

I t h i n k s o m e have mistaken the need of low te m p s . :
You don't want to have the coolest reaction ever but you wan't to m ake a particular form of AP: m uch m ore stable p owerful
etc... If you are at 5C or at 2C will not change m uch.
Particularly when using conc. chem icals, with not much water: remem ber that 0C is 273K and 2K (K for kelvin ! you noob !
<img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) isn't much.
And cooling too m uch slows th e reactio n to a point where resources becom e too expensive (think about electricity ! and natural
reso urces).
Give us your yield for that we can com pare, and eval. th e efficiency of such a cooling (i don't think it's useful, but we never
know: I never tried personally...)
[EDIT]: I need to learn to spe ak a better English once for all !
<sm all>[ Decem ber 25, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Arthis ]
dave D e c e m ber 25th, 2002, 02:47 PM

i r e m e m ber when i started m aking AP. The first tim e I m a d e i t u s i n g n o s a l t a n d t r y i n g t o k e e p t h e t e m p below 8*C , I u s e d
$2.22 of ice. My last batch I m ade triple the am ount, using already cold water, and tons of salt. I bought a 10lbs rock salt bag
for really che ap. I used slightly less then one b ag of ice , which is $1.11 dollars each. Ice is the main concern for me when
m aking AP. Ice can really add up to the cost.
Mic D e c e m ber 25th, 2002, 04:02 PM

why don't you just put som e water in a freezer ? water is free ! no ? and I suppose you have a freezer

W here I get m y ice it depends. If i have it plan ned out when to m a k e s o m e AP Freeze 1 gallon of water in advance. If i am
b o r e d I g o b u y s o m e i c e . I t t a k e s 1 4 p o u n d s o f i c e s o m etimes if the wheather is really ho t and the chem icals are not
precooled. If I leave ice in the freezer too long my mom will throw it out cause she says it is a waste of spa ce.
kingspaz D e c e m ber 27th, 2002, 07:33 PM

dave, it may be best to plan your synths in advance. that way you are much less likely to forget somthing vital and risk an
accident.
Yak D e c e m ber 27th, 2002, 07:48 PM

Or if you are planning to make it m ore then on ce or twice buy m ore chem icals and store them u n t i l l y o u n e e d t h e m t h u s m o re
likly to get all the chemicals you need.

Sure, I have all m y chem s sto red up in m y shed. I got the largest am ount I could buy at once with o u t i t b e i n g t o o e x p e n s i v e . I
a m worried a b o u t m y 2 7 . 5 % H 2 O 2 d e c o m p o s i n g, I have only used 1/3 of the 1 gallon bottle.
Al Nobel D e c e m ber 28th, 2002, 11:39 AM

I like winter, no cooling problems for three m onths.I produced m y last batch of AP a week ago on m y balco ny and it worked
great.
TheBear D e c e m ber 30th, 2002, 03:44 PM

Arthis: I know all that (and please don 't try to m a k e j o k e s l i k e t h o s e K s t a n d s f o r k e l v i n ' n o o b ' , t h e y c a n s o e a s i l y b e
m isread).
I just want to m inimize the precense of the dim er form of AP by being so close to the free zing point as I can. And a s for now I
don't need to freeze the water in the freezer (a s I'm writing it's -19C outside). W hen it com e s t o y i e l d s h e r e ' s s o m e facts from
last batch:
107 ml acetone (84,7g)

2 0 0 m l H 2 O 2 (19,5%)
2 0 m l HCl (30%)
Yield: 73.8g AP
I'm pretty pleased with the yield. I might be im agining all this but the sh ock sensitivty seem s to be lower (due to sm aller
chrystalls?) than for high tem perature m anufactured AP, BU T I've only tested it with the classical ham merblow test.
The AP were not dryed in one huge pile but i spread it out over 6 filterpapers.
Oh I forgot to mentio n, that a bout a less volatile product were probably not true in m y last post (it's pretty cold now and I
compared with the volatility of m y AP last sum mer when it was +30*C i n t h e s h a d e ) s o I c a n ' t m a k e a statement regaring it's
volatility.
Helos D e c e m ber 30th, 2002, 06:57 PM

Acco rding to pyro 200 0 (swedish text b y swedish infoma nia)
u s i n g H C L a s a c a t a l y s t m e a n s t h a t b o th the dim er and trim er form is created, this is not the case with H2SO4 for exam ple.
Anthony D e c e m ber 31st, 2002 , 05:31 AM

I t ' s b e e n l o n g e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t dim mer/trim m e r formation is governed by tem perature, not catalyst type.
TheBear January 1st, 2003, 03:15 PM

Although hundereds (slight exaggeration) of th reads have covered this:
Usin g H2SO 4 m ight result in formation of H2SO 5 (H2O 2 + H2SO 4 ---> H2O + H2SO5). H2 SO5 + actone gives the dimer
version _only_
Pyro 2000 is an excellent collection, but the organic peroxides file (written by thallion) contains several false claims (HCl not
working to catalyse production o f H T M D f o r e x a m p l e ) .
Off topic: Helos could y o u p l e a s e m a i l m e ( t h e m a i l s I s e n d y o u was autom aticcly replied saying your em a i l d o e s n ' t e x i s t )
EP January 28th , 2 0 0 3 , 1 0 : 4 2 P M
Everyone (well hopefully everyone) knows abou t rinsing in bicarb solution to neutralize any rem aining acid in the finished AP,
but I've heard from s o m e people that the basic conditions created by bicarb aren't much better than the acidic conditions of
unwashed AP. Is there any tru th in this? If so, it a final good rinse with plain water sufficient to rem ove NaHCO3 traces?
metafractal January 29th , 2003, 01:05 AM

W hile I always neutra lize my AP with a weak alkali solution, from personal experience I have noticed little difference in the
sensitivity when such procedures are taken. You can read about my experience when my unneutralized AP seem e d
unbelievably insensitive to shock in <a href="http://d106112.u2 7.qwknetllc.com/cgi-bin/ewforum /ultim ateb b.cgi?
ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000447#000000" target="_blank">this</a> thread, towards the bottom .
Notice to the future: This link was supplied while roguesci was on a tem porary address, so if this link fails, sim ply replace the
d106112.u27.qwknetllc.com with <a href="http://www.roguesci.org." target="_blank">www.roguesci.org.</a>
xyz January 29th , 2003, 03:02 AM

I wash my AP with Bicarb, then wash it several tim es with water so that if there is any acid left, or if the AP is now basic, then it
gets as close to Ph.7 as possible.
frogfot January 29th , 2003, 06:41 AM

I have a standard procidure when washing pero xides lesser than 10g AP or HMTD. 200m l water, 10 0ml 5% bicarb solution and
finally 200m l water. C old tap water is used.
It would be great to have a scientific paper on di/tri AP yields depending on temperature. Som ething like the pdf on tetra AP
above. But everytime i search google it finds kewl sites instead of som ething useful..
<sm all>[ January 29, 2003, 05:43 AM: Messag e edited by: frogfot ]</sm all>
X-Wulf January 29th , 2 0 0 3 , 0 4 : 4 8 P M

I w o n d e r i f a n y p a p e r s h a v e b e e n p u b l i s h e d o n the subject of yields w.r.t. reaction tem perature? Even the one on te tra-cyclo in
this topic is related to the catalyst and not so m uch the tem p.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP manufacture..risk factor? -archive file
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Whats the risk at these stages? Say a 1-10 scale OR a "Wont blow", "May blow" etc.
1) mixing chemicals
2) letting sit
3) filtering
4) letting dry
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
posted December 21, 2000 11:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) won't blow
2) won't blow
3) won't blow
4) won't blow (unless you're dumb and dry it with a blow torch)
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 591
From: ?
posted December 21, 2000 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HaHaHaa!!
But look out for sparks it`s very flammable
------------------
Go to Section1 <a href="http://www.section1.f2s.com" target="_blank">http://www.section1.f2s.com</a> Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You left out WASHING, if you don't wash it your asking for big trouble in step 4. And dry it nicly not in the sun or the oven it's heat sensetive !!!!
Bubba
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From:
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Whats washing involve?
Edd
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: england
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the easiest way is to just pour a whole bunch of water through your filter. if you don't wash it it's -very- sensitive, and you can't put it in anything metal, as any traces of acid
will react with it.
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't frighten newbies. If your AP is acid, you'll have problems with metals, but if you put it in a glass you may not have any. And the stability is not bad, I think of the 150g
which have stayed on my desk for two weeks..
Lost
Frequent Poster
Posts: 89
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Better to frighten them then to let them think its not dangerous, and die because of it.
------------------
-Lost
<a href="http://www.noneinc.org" target="_blank">http://www.noneinc.org</a>
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 392
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah copious amounts of cold tap water work fine, I would add a bit of baking soda for an added mesure.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This may sound a bit stupid, but its better to be safe than get my arse blown to shit.
When one adds baking soda as a safety measure, why does it make the mixture safer?
[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited December 30, 2000).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the baking soda (being a base) neutralizes the acid and makes the ap less acidic so that certain things like metals dont react with it
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sodium bi-carbonate is a base and will neutralize any remaining acid left in the AP.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if I wash my AP with water and baking soda, will it react with metals?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think not, but just to be on the safe side dont mix ap with metals!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll second that, AP corrodes steel badly. Whats's better, wash the AP in a bicarb of saod solution, or mix dry bicarb into the wahed and dried AP?
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the soultion would be the best to be sure it gets ALL the AP neutralised. And if you mix the Baking Soda and AP (dry), itl be less powerfull.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mix ap with baking soda to keep it from detonating and use it like gunpowder
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are having trouble putting your AP in pipes, then you should wrap the ap in clingfoil first, then put it in the pipe.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or a plastic baggie with the fuse sticking out the top.
For pressing AP for blasting caps, I was think of pressing it into a paper tub that fits inside the metal cap casing. It would be safer if it went off during pressing and would also
keep it out of contact with the metal.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think it is a very good Idea to store ap in a glass container (incase of accidents)
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you mix your AP with baking soda, does it poof like in small quantites, or like Pyrodex?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when I mix my ap with baking soda it poofs, and is like very fast burning gunpowder, I have not tried it in too lare quantities yet so experiment with caution
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What % do you use?
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
somewhere around 25% baking soda by volume
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come on! The great thing about AP is that it
is a high explosive, so if you want a safer charge then pack it tightly. If you are afraid that it may react with the metal in your pipes or detonators, coat the inside with varnish.
You could also mix the AP with another, more stable explosive such as picric acid or TNT (if you have access to these). Finally there is the AP/NC putty. Or you could work on a
plasticizer.
But please don't use it as gunpowder.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Black Powder, Density
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Zero April 10th, 2002, 11:14 AM

Dan William s ' s i t e s e e m s to have vanished...
D o e s a n y o n e k n o w , o ffhand, the proper density to press black powder to when you corn it? I want to say 1.17 gram s / C C , b u t
I'm not sure. No one seem s to know.
~Zero the Inestim a b l e
CyclonitePyro April 10th, 2002, 06:26 PM

<a href="http://userpages.prexar.com /dwilliam s m a i n e / t o p . h t m l" target="_blank">http://userpage s.prexar.com/
dwilliamsm aine/top.htm l</a> nope it just m oved I guess, I just found it yesterda y and was reading the bla ck powder section,
he says 1.7
Zero April 10th, 2002, 07:57 PM

That m u s t b e s o m ething recent, then. I paged through just about every single google search page for "Dan William s " a n d
found zlich. Google had a cache of his front page and projects page, but not the black powder page. Bastards.
So I was righ t a b o u t t h e 1 a n d t h e 7 . C l o s e e n o u g h . T h a n k s .
nbk2000 April 10th, 2002, 11:19 PM

I've got a copy of it o n o n e o f m y CD-Rs. Unfortunately, they're all packed up at the m o m ent.
Also, isn't there a PDF copy of his site on the FTP?
<sm all>[ April 10, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</sm all>

Eh, it's m oot now. CyclonitePyro posted a good mirror (or wherever it m o v e d t o , a t l e a s t ) , s o a s l o n g a s s o m e o n e h a s a n
archive of the thing we should be alright...
zaibatsu April 11th, 2002, 02:17 PM

I've got a .pdf copy o f Dan W illiams site, however it didn't upload properally the first tim e I tried to upload it, I'll try again
when the forum F T P i s b a c k u p .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tannerite Exploding Targets
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Kdogg April 14th, 2002, 04:09 PM

What do these consist of? They are not the flash powder kind. They have chemicals you need to buy or somthing. IM confused
with this somoen please explain.
Mr Cool April 14th, 2002, 05:01 PM

"I'm confused with this, someone please explain."
Explain what?
If you want to know what's in them, ring up the company and say you spilled it everywhere, and want to know what's in it so
you can clean it up properly. I'd be surprised if it didn't say what it was on the container somewhere.

Kdogg, not a great post or new topic :mad:
it would help greatly if you had some pictures and a good decription other than 2 lines of crap. try the company website
maybe...
10fingers April 14th, 2002, 06:46 PM

Are you talking about the targets that when struck with a bullet they explode? If so the composition is:
6 pts potassium chlorate
1 pt sulfur
1 pt antimony trisulfide
1 pt magnesium, 200 mesh
1 pt aluminum, -325 mesh
.5 pt calcium carbonate
Madog555 April 14th, 2002, 11:28 PM

i dont think he is refering to that, he is refering to tantelite or tannerite (watever)
im 90% sure that its ANNM. there was a previous topic that had a link to the homepage and NBK said that it was ANNM
i have the targets that have flash in them though, those are cool

Yea, you're right, it's not the same thing. I was just reading a thread about it on alt.eng.explosives. None of them knew
exactly what it was made out of either except it was ammonium nitrate based.
mark April 15th, 2002, 12:04 AM

WE dismantled a flash target today and made a mini exploding target out of it. We put about a half tsp of flash inside an FC
and put a roll of caps inside. When we shot it with a wadd cutter pelet it went off with a nloveley flash and boo,m
cutefix April 15th, 2002, 12:09 AM

Interesting stuff,it is likely a binary explosive and not a composite explosive.It was even claimed by its manufacturers as two
component explosives.
Again I do not believe it contains not only ammonium nitrate,but may contain a certain percentage of ammonium
perchlorate.(for better sensitivity and oxygen balance).
One customer who happened to be knowledgeable in explosive science claimed its detonation rate is 5000-7000m/s.The
range of ANNM binaries.Therefore it belongs to an HE category and not as low explosives.
Check this out: <a href="http://www.skylightexplosives.com/she_exploding_targets.html" target="_blank">http://
www.skylightexplosives.com/she_exploding_targets.html</a>
nbk2000 April 15th, 2002, 12:22 AM

Perhaps the sensitizer is a solution of potassium chlorate. It's been said that ammonium chlorate is extrememly shock
sensitive, so this might be how it's done.

Think theyll ship those regular mail? What do you think It would take to detonate one of them?
EP April 15th, 2002, 12:53 AM

On the site it says a .22 or more will set them off, but that they are relatively insensitive.

Helvetica"> I did a small impact test ? Hammer drop test ?. This was done with a 5-pound & 15-pound hammer. A drop of
twenty-four inches against a hard surface failed to cause a detonation. I was not able to detonate it with any hammer or drop
test. Friction also failed to cause fire or detonation. <hr /></blockquote>
andreas April 15th, 2002, 08:42 AM

<a href="http://www.boomershoot.org/" target="_blank">http://www.boomershoot.org/</a>
maybe this helps

Shouldn't there be an MSDS for these things (I can't see one on google), or maybe your volumes of product info NBK?
My money is on it's ANNM.
I don't see how making and detonating a HE is legal for joe public though?
nbk2000 April 15th, 2002, 09:35 AM

I've never been interested in exploding targets, thus have never searched for info on them.

I was thinking of your set of Thomas Guides that your ex-roomie dug out of a dumpster, although these tagets might be post
yr2000.
Zambosan April 15th, 2002, 11:36 AM

I was always under the impression that they were ANNM... but come to think of it, in Ragnar Benson's Improvised "C4", they
do a few impact tests comparing ANNM to straight dynamite with a rifle at about 50 yards... and the ANNM charges never
detonate. Must be something else (or in addition).

yeah, it has to be, i have also seen that video
nbk2000 April 15th, 2002, 01:57 PM

At $8.50 for a single target, it's overpriced whatever it is. Hell, it'd be cheaper to make pure NG at that cost.
And I bet THAT'D be a lot more fun to shot! :D
Call and ask them for an MSDS sheet.

Hey all. I made an exploding target today! It was the cap to an FC with a nickel in the back. In front, there was a pinch or left
over AP from making caps. I atatched the thing to a slightly dented coke can and set it off with my bb gun. Here are the pics
:)
<img src="http://www.paintballresource.org/ubb/userpics/200.jpg" alt="" />
<img src="http://www.paintballresource.org/ubb/userpics/199.jpg" alt="" />
[ April 15, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: mark ]
Kdogg April 15th, 2002, 10:04 PM

Jesus Kingspan! I know nothing about these nor have any, sorry for asking! Why do you think I asked though? Delete it if you
dont like it!

kdogg, if that was aimed at me sorry.
it wasn't clear what your question was or what you where on about really. i chose not to delete it because it needed discussing
and you don;t seem k3\/\/\/l
EP April 20th, 2002, 01:17 PM

Here is the patent info for one type of exploding target using a flash comp.
<a href="http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/
srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='4498677'.WKU.&OS=PN/4498677&RS=PN/4498677" target="_blank">exploding target</a>
EventHorizon September 29th, 2002, 07:44 PM

Looks like this is an old topic, but this is the first place I came when I saw one of these targets in action. Make no joke about
them, they are QUITE impressive. Not quite as impressive as ANNM (which these are not!) I have some pictures of the ground
where one detonated and will post on the forum FTP (as soon as I email Ctrl_C for me logon info :p ). They look to be
potassium chlorate (didn't look like ammonium nitrate) with an aluminum "sensitizing" mix. I'm going to buy 20 and see if
they will initiate via HMTD and also attempt to figure out how to make them myself since even $4.90 ea. is still expensive.
EventHorizon October 6th, 2002, 09:31 PM
10Fingers:
Looks like that formula doesn't work very well. I tried it and only received a VERY small detonation strewing the rest of the
contents of the bottle all over the place.
rbt October 14th, 2002, 11:55 PM

I spoke with the seller of the targets after buying a case of them. They are shipped UPS in two separate boxes. One box
contains bottles of white powder (ammonium nitrate). The other contains a container of sensitizer which is a mix of aluminum
powder, titanium sponge, and zirconium hydride (a powerful reducing agent). I did a patent search and there is a patent on
such a composition, although I do not recall the exact number. I can verify that they work extremely well.
rbt October 15th, 2002, 12:05 AM

I looked up the patent on the mix. It is U.S. patent #4304614
EventHorizon October 22nd, 2002, 09:04 PM

I don't think that the white powder is ammonium nitrate. I've placed a gram or so on a plastic lid and it has yet to show any
signs of deliquesence(sp).
He states in his video that "...you mix the nitrate...", however the mixed powder with the "catalyst" showed no sign of being
flash because they show you tests where they stick a fuse in it as well as putting a propane torch on one without detonation.
Additionally, mine came shipped in the same box; not seperately.
I plan on sticking a cap in one this weekend and will post results.
EDIT:
Anyone know what the "white powder" could possibly be? I placed some KNO3 next to some of it and it looks
pretty damn similar. I plan on adding some to conc. H2SO4 to see if NOx is present.
If the 'catalyst' contains several ingredients, does anyone have suggestions on how to seperate them. Its a rather dark
powder which looks like it contains (as least to me) Al, SbS3, but does not "smell" like it contains sulfur.
[ October 23, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]
EventHorizon November 10th, 2002, 08:46 PM

I believe now these might just be ammonium nitrate sensitized with Al/Mg "catalyst". As I was mixing some up today I noticed
that the whote powder left on the funnel started picking up moisture and after it had sat a while the residue on the funnel
became a liquid.
I also noticed just how insensitive they are. Non-reliable detonations when shot at with a .308 at 90 yds. Tomorrow in goes
some nitromethane and a 1g HMTD cap. If its KNO3 I'm thinking 1g HMTD won't set it off but will definately initiate ANNM.
I've also got some pics of the damage they will do as well is a sweet video frame capture showing the flash at the time of
detonation and the shock wave.
steve smith November 14th, 2002, 05:22 AM

I have talked to him via email about his targets, and i can't remember FOR SURE that it was AN, or pot perch. I realllllyyyy,
wanna say AN based, but do remember a big thing about them being set off with a .22. It's imposible to set AN based charges
off with a .22. THis is why i want to say perch. based.
He also adds in some graphite for smoke. AP comps work well for this osrt of thing, even making some colored ones.
I have experimented, --plenty-- with exploding targets. They are a --lot-- of fun. I have tried nearly everything with AN based
targets, and my main goal is always to be able to set them off with a .22, which is nearly impossible with AN comps.
Macgyver February 20th, 2003, 08:49 AM

What would be the best explosive to use for making exploding targets that doesn't require more than the impact of a bbgun
fired at it?
1.HMTD
2.AP (Maybe a bit too sensitive for my taste!).
3.Perchlorate based flash powder, sensitized by addidtion of SbS3 or Sb.
4.Any other suggestions?

if its going to be sensitive for a bbgun to set it off then obviously its going to need to be rediculously sensitive, much more
than AP.
you'd have to use armstrongs mix or somthing with extreme sensitivity which means if you pick it up too fast you have less
fingers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

AP/HMTD will reliably detonate from a BB strike, if there's a hard backing to it.
Dunno whether sensitised flash would, I've never needed sensitised flash so have no experience with it.
Also, what kind of gun would the BB be fired from, and at what range? Obviously power level varies considerably across the
range of "BB" guns available.
Macgyver February 20th, 2003, 02:47 PM

I think armstrongs mix is out of the question due to the fact that I want to keep all of my fingers intact.
I'll research the subject a bit more and get back with my findings...
Macgyver February 20th, 2003, 02:58 PM

Anthony: I'm using a CO2 powered gun with .177 lead ammo, with a velocity of 130 m/s.
So I agree with you that it probably would work with both AP and HMTD.
But would it set of a KClO4/Al/S based flash or would it need to be KClO3 based or have something added to it to increse
sensitivity?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that a small amount of animony (Sb) or Antimony trisulfide (SbS3) will make flash
compositions both more sensitive to friction/impact.
Sulfur might also have that effect, at least with KClO3.

anthony? what sort of bbguns where you thinking of? the G10 sort of things firing metal balls? i was thinking of the airsoft type
firing plastic balls.

I was going on the American common definition of "BB gun", being ANY gun which fires a projectile by compressed air or CO2.
Be it a G10 firing at 0.5ft/lb or a multishot PCP at 20ft/lb - both common. But more likely a CO2 gun or multi-stroke
pneumatic (pump up) that fires actual BBs rather than pellets, which do so at an average of about 8-10ft/lb.
Softair guns fire at fraction ft/lb and I didn't consider them. Although the more powerful "serious" airsoft guns might set off a
pouch of AP taped to a metal plate at close range.
Macgyver February 21st, 2003, 03:14 AM

kingspaz: Sorry, I didn't even think about soft airguns, since that would require a ridiculous sensitive compound... (Such as
KClO3+P or NI3 - But I rather keep my fingers where they belong :) ). :D
Actually I consider AP a bit too sensitive, but I'm going to make some for this test anyway just to see the difference between
HMTD and AP in sensitivity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
kingspaz February 21st, 2003, 05:50 PM

don't worry, was my fault for being dumb.
anyway, what about rifle primers? a target on a sheet of metal with a rifle primer behind the bullseye?
IPN February 23rd, 2003, 03:20 PM

Ok, I made 5 targets (metal plates) by placing 0,5g of HMTD on every plate and putting some tape on the HMTD.
Then I took my CO2 powered rifle and "BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG" they all succeeded on detonation!!
The metal plates were quite deformed, but none of them were broke
These are really great, it gives you some feeling rather than just shooting at some tin cans. (What about filling the tin can with
HMTD :D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D ) Well back to shooting...
NickSG February 23rd, 2003, 03:59 PM

be extremly careful using metal and HMTD. They have been know to react together, sometimes voilently enough to explode if
left together for long enough.
Macgyver February 23rd, 2003, 11:57 PM

I know.... I used to be in Swedish Infomania under another name few years ago, so I have worked pretty much with HMTD and
other fun stuff :)
The idea was to have a metal plate right behind the container with the explosive to make sure the impact was hard enough to
cause detonation or ignition (in the case with flash powder).
I will get around to doing the testing during this week, had to make some AP, because I usually do not store that... HMTD
however is stable enough to store even though some claims it's not. I've had a film canister of HMTD stored for over a year
and it's still good and stable when I tested some of it yesterday.
AP on the other hand tends to sublimate and crystalize in places you don't want it if stored too long, like in the threads of the
canisters lid and other no-good places, thats one reason why I like HMTD more than AP.
At one time I had a 0.5 litre bottle of HMTD (Left over from when we were testing various catalysts for the reaction to make
HMTD, and I was asked to get rid of it because T. didn't want it around at home, took down a tree nice and clean....
Okay enough ranting of old times, what I am going to test is the following:
1. One target with 5 g of HMTD attached to it.

2. One target with 5 g of AP attached to it.
3. One target with 5 g of Flash attached to it (KClO4/Al/S based).
I am unceratin if #3 will work at all, but I think both #1 and #2 will definitively do the trick :) #3 should defintively work if
KClO3 was substituted for KClO4, but unfortunately I don't have any <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
IPN February 25th, 2003, 12:19 PM

Ok, I made another test.
This was done by making 2 targets (again metal plates). On to the target #1 were placed 1g of HMTD and on the target #2 1g
of lead styphnate.
T h e n I shot them with my bbgun (shoots plastic bb s a t 120m/s) and both of the targets worked.
I guess I will start a mass production of these HMTD targets...
EP December 9th, 2003, 09:26 PM

Here are videos of tannerite targets:
http://www.okiebigbores.com/goodies.htm
I hear the guy that ran the business stopped making them because the legal stuff was getting to be a major pain in the ass.
Unknown January 14th, 2004, 03:40 AM

A friend of mine (lives in California) received a box of tannerite targets today. There were two different containers, one with a
fine dark gray powder that looks like Aluminum powder. The other container contains a fine white granular powder. Two targets
were ordered, and the box arrived with one container containing 306g (w/container) of the gray powder, and twenty tall narrow
containers containing 239g each of the white powder.
The grey powder container is marked " ZrH/Tis/ catalyst target formula". The white powder containers' contents are unidentified
except for a label saying it's for persons over 21 without felony convictions (sorry NBK, you're probably able to make the stuff
on your own, or something better anyway). It also has the company address and says that in order to comply with the law, you
have to use it as soon as you mix it. This is because of the requirement to comply with storage of explosive materials, or the
average Joes inability to. So it probably should not be mixed in your car with the family driving on the freeway in rush hour
traffic because you will have to use it!
I did a search on the net here, webelements.com (http://www.webelements.com/) , for "ZrH" and Tis. ZrH came up as
Zirconium (II) Hydride, and Tis as Titanium (IV) Sulphide.
A test was conducted with the powders. A small sample of each powder was exposed to flame to observe the reaction. The gray
powder sparked intermittently, the white powder did not react at all. A small sample of each powder was mixed together and
put to flame which yielded intermittent sparks the same as the gray powder alone. A wooden popsicle stick was lit and the red
embers were put to the mixed powders which yielded the aforementioned result. The white powder emitted an odor similar to
Kerosene.
I was hoping that some of you might have heard of mixtures containing Zirconium (II) Hydride, Titanium (IV) Sulphide and
some kind of an oxidizer.
tjh January 18th, 2004, 07:12 PM

I am new to this site, but can say that the Tannerite composition is no great mystery. It is merely powdered AN plus pyro
grade aluminum mixed in a 95/5 weight ratio. Somewhat greater sensitivity with increased aluminum, maybe upwards of 10%.
Since the cost of Al is somewhat prohibitive, the 5% mix is suggested. I fill 8oz. milk cartons with this target mix for a very
powerful target. Even small black film canisters provide an amazing report! Very powerful on their own, with no need to add
nitromethane or any other ingredient. However, this only works with high power bullets--.223, .308, etc. I haven't managed to
set the mixture off with any handgun ammo or .22 cal. (darn!). My shooting buddies and I have shot thousands (yes, literally)
of these targets. With our sources of AN and Al, we have a cost of a small milk carton full at about $.35 each. We mix our
target mix at a cost of about $.70 per pound--$70 for 100 pounds. Milk cartons are free and come from elementary school
cafeteria garbage cans. They go through a thousand each day. Just rinse them and dry in the air.
Also, very important, is the fact that this is our most effective booster for a number 6 cap. We can get ANY sleepy mixture to
go boom. Damp/wet prilled ANFO goes high order with this mix.
Try it and you'll see.
powdermunkey January 22nd, 2004, 01:27 PM

I bought a couple of cases of these targets last year. At $8.50 per target, I decided to analyze the contents and see what was
so expensive. Tanner's website is secretive about the formula, but an earlier post here says he claims the white powdered
component is ammonium perchlorate and nitrate mix, and the 'catalyst' is zirconium hydride and titanium sponge. The stuff of
his that I tested was straight AN, and the 'catalyst' is plain dark flake aluminum. He's making a great profit, considering that a
60 pound bag of AN is about $8.00 at a farm supply store, and dark Aluminum flake is about $20.00 a pound. I tried making
one yesterday with plain prilled AN and bright flake Al, and it worked just fine. The bright flake is about $12.00 a pound at
skylighter.com.
powdermunkey January 25th, 2004, 12:13 AM

I went out today and shot a few of these targets and had a great time. A full 24 oz. beer can (full of Al sentized AN) tucked
inside a defunct HP printer leaves nothing but a cloud of smoke and an echo. Well, except for the crater... Amazingly powerful
little critters.
beartooth June 7th, 2006, 03:25 PM

Got some of the 1/2 pound targets, and shot at them this weekend. .223 rounds set them off well, as does the 25-06.
The company recommends shooting it from 100 yds. Not worth it.
50yds gives a much better feel. Mostly a flash, and a loud thud that you can feel in your chest. A bit pricey, so I was looking
for how to make my own. That's how I stumbled on this forum.
Fuze2short June 22nd, 2006, 03:30 PM

This is J.H.'s mix......quoted from his site.
1500 Grams Ammonium Nitrate. Prilled, not ground.

400 Grams Potassium Chlorate. 200 mesh powder.
3 tablespoons Ethylene Glycol.
Mix the EG with the AN until thoroughly blended.

Mix in the PC.
It will look very much like mixed curd size cottage cheese.
Seal in airtight containers.
Do not pack! The mixture must be slightly fluffy to detonate easily.
Cautions:
The risks are many. I wear a flak jacket, eye protection, gloves, and hearing protection.
There are probably more cautions to be made that I can possibly remember.
Absolutely do not store the mix, mix it and use it on sight.
Remember to respect it, 1/2 lb of this mix is more than lethal.
.22 stingers will set off this comp..;)
jagster June 23rd, 2006, 02:25 PM

Does anyone know if a .17 HMR will set off the standard ammonium nitrate/pyro AL mix? This is the fastest rifle I currently
own and have been doing tests with it with no luck...but I was using 350 mesh AL. Do you think this would be enough to set it
off or do I need the pyro aluminum?
I've been trying to figure out how to make things that are set off with .17 HMR. The standard mixture from daniel tanner WILL
go off with the .17. Its kinda expensive though :)
Also is there any way to dry out ammonium nitrate once it has received some moisture? Will simple baking do the
trick..assuming its at a lower temperature then its detonation AND decomposition point?
Fuze2short June 23rd, 2006, 04:04 PM

Jagster - you need a higher mesh Al, also is it spherical Al or flake?
I know this has been asked on these boards many times before, but here's the comp..
The mix jagster mentioned consists of:
Oxidizer:
85% by weight ammonium nitrate powder - about 200 mesh
15% by weight ammonium perchlorate
Preferred catalyst composition (fuel) :
90% by weight explosive grade aluminum powder - about 600 mesh, flake being obviously superior, 5% by weight titanium
sponge - about 325 mesh, and 5% by weight zirconium hydride - about 200 mesh.
At the risk of subjecting myself to scrutiny:

To the best of my knowledge this mix detonates, not deflagrates...
PS- Baking the AN will be fine just do so under low heat.
jagster July 4th, 2006, 03:02 AM

I got it to work :-). Its weird on the patent it says you use 8:1 oxidizer to fuel ratio. I weighed out exactly how he says its
mixed and its nowhere near 8:1 but rather closer to 95 or something to 1. I did the standard 5% al <2 micron flake :D and
the 85/15 oxidizer stuff and a small ziplock bag destroyed a 6 x 6. Very nice :-).
Qew August 23rd, 2006, 03:06 PM

Wash prills in 91% Isopropyl, drain, and bake (preheat the oven and then TURN IT OFF-P.s. leave a note on the front as not
to incinerate your wife or children from latent alocohol fumes iginiting when they turn on the oven to bake cookies not knowing
your in the middle of your project)
Pre-heat oven to 400 F, turn off

Lay prills on cookie sheet
Check on them periodically
Remove waxy, flat, clump from cookie sheet periodically. It serves to make the prills more dense, and therefore less
sensitive.
After about 2 hrs, the prills should be considerably lighter than when you began, and their presence in the room should not
stink the room up of alcohol. Now it's safe (for me) -for YOU, to bake those same prills on 400 for about 20 minutes. This
should draw out a little more of the waxy substance, which will pool to the end of the cookie sheets.
Prills should be VERY light now.
2 TSP 600 grey aluminum powder

1 cup prills
Mix in bag until all prills are coated and grey
form into ball using duct tape (tightly)
will detonate even with .17HMR round from 50 yds. Beyond 50 yds, =/>.223 @2900+ needed for positive detonation.
After shooting Tannerite, I'm just not that impressed. The idea is great, but the marketability necessitates that it be not as
sensitive, and more "showy", (white smoke additive via Titanium sponge), and less powerful than something you could
theoretically make at home for 1/10th the cost, and 150% of the perfomance.
25elipto September 4th, 2006, 03:27 AM

"zirconium hydride" "potassium nitrate" binary. Thats what Dan uses...
The last thing the Feds will let him sell. Which is a good thing IMHO.
c4550 September 19th, 2006, 08:12 PM

I am new to this site, but can say that the Tannerite composition is no great mystery. It is merely powdered AN plus pyro
grade aluminum mixed in a 95/5 weight ratio.
I too have had good luck with 95% AN and 5% 600 mesh AL powder. It's a very forgiving mix. You can grind the AN with an old
blender without going through the trouble of washing it with alcohol.
I use old plastic pop bottles to hold the AN/AL. I have only used rifle bullets (5.56, 7.62x39 and 30-06) to detonate it.
Therefore, I don't know if a .22lr will set it off. I'll test it the next time I make a batch.
waxman September 20th, 2006, 11:53 PM

I still like MEKP in a ziplock bag for exploding targets.
Any suggestions as to how to add smoke? Maybe colored smoke?
lman October 14th, 2006, 04:31 AM

Does anyone know if KNO3 sensitized with pyro aluminum and perhaps some KCLO3 could be coaxed into going high-order
when hit by a centerfire rifle bullet? Its less hygroscopic than NH3NO3, and I happen to have some lying around, I just havent
had the opportunity to go out and test it.
nbk2000 October 14th, 2006, 06:23 AM

It's the ammonium chlorate formed by mixing AN and KClO3 that makes the targets sensitive enough to detonate by bullet
impacts.
KNO3 won't disassociate like that, so it won't behave like the AN-based targets do.
SafetyLast October 17th, 2006, 07:44 PM

Try a powdered dye for colored smoke effects, this may not work however as in pyrotechnics you need a low temperature
mixture that does not break down the dyes and just acts as a gas generator to disperse the dye as an aerosol. I used to
make APRC targets, these were made by placing a tablespoon of AP onto the back of a 8" or 12" NRA paper target, right
behind the x ring. Rubber cement was mixed to the AP and allowed to dry. When shot with a .22 These targets were loud as
hell and blew the targets to postage stamp size shreds that would float in the air like confetti. Ammonium Chlorate is
ridiculously sensitive, kind of suprised that they can sell those tannerite targets legally.
waxman October 21st, 2006, 08:34 PM

SafetyLast- thanks!
Mixing/stirring AP with rubber cement sounds a little risky. Couple of crystals grinding together may shred your target
prematurely, no?
My next to try is MEKPAN in a table tennis ball. Cute little guys, yellow with the smiley face! I'm closing the fill hole with rubber
cement, and topping that with a golf tee. FORE! :)
SafetyLast October 23rd, 2006, 07:11 PM

I've certainly never had any problems with the mixture, I just add enough rc to make a gel consistency.
(Heptane and Petroleum Distillates in rc make a good solvent for relatively safe mixing as long as you are cautious). The
latex in the RC seems to raise the density of the AP while still keeping it slightly elastic, the material has survived a hit from a
multiple pump BB gun at close range so I'm assuming it can withstand at least a couple Joules of impact energy.
Your MEKPAN tennis ball sounds like a fun device:D
So Tannerite targets are zirconium hydride and potassium nitrate??

I missed that part. :rolleyes:
Cindor October 24th, 2006, 01:58 AM
Won't the MEKP dissolve the Celulose Nitrate in the table tennis ball ?
Maybe you will get something like Gel Dynamite.
waxman November 1st, 2006, 07:55 AM

No dissolution over a week. Looking for ideas on a filler material so I don't need to use the whole 26 ml to fill the ball. Sand,
maybe?
Cindor November 2nd, 2006, 07:35 PM

Amonnium Nitrate and sawdust instead of an inert material ;)
SafetyLast November 6th, 2006, 05:01 PM

If you're already using MEKPAN why not simply use more AN? IIRC a good MEKPAN mixture was 11ml of MEKP to 100g of AN,
more than sufficient for making several of your ping-pong ball targets. I would NOT suggest the addition of grit or sand into
something that contains a sensitive peroxide, doing so could potentially sensitize the explosive to a dangerous state. I lost a
couple fingertips from pressing AP by hand 3 years ago, I later discovered that the reason for this was because the AP I was
using contained small bits of solid plastic material that had contaminated the batch. Luckily it was only .5 grams, anything
more and I probably would have lost a hand.
A similar technique is used in the pyrotechnics industry for impact sensitive firecrackers where silica or gravel is coated with a
small amount of some already sensitive primary such as the Silver Fulminate in common "Snap-Pops".
If you need something to fill the remaining space in the ball use an epoxy filler or plumbers joint compound which you allow to
fully harden before adding the explosive.
jagster April 29th, 2007, 09:45 PM

So I have a question. I recently obtained some potassium chlorate and I'm looking to produce a 22LR detonateable target. I
want to make something such as the "scarecrow rimfire" 1/2 lb targets you can search google for. I was wondering if anyone
had any ideas on how these are made or what composition? I know someone earlier mentioned ammonium nitrate with
chlorate and then some antifreeze that would be set off by a .22 stinger. I will definately have to try that. I want to set it off
with standard .22 round though but I can survive if I have to use stingers I think :).
What about adding some KClO3 to regular ammonium nitrate/Al mixtures? I have heard people say don't mix chlorates with
nitrates for whatever reason but appearently BOOMERSHOOT guys do and that previous formula I mentioned does.
My last thing is maybe a chlorate flash? 70/30 Al/clorate might work? I don't really want to add sulfur to it as this is not a good
idea ever. I have not had anytime to test any of these but finals will soon be over :).
Any good chlorate or whatever 22 mixtures would be appreciated. I know they do it reliably with that scarecrow mix...I ordered
one in hopes to somehow figure out whats in it.
Thanks!
Alexires April 30th, 2007, 05:23 AM

jagster - Normally there is a good reason people tell you not to do things. A little research would have turned up this (http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_chlorate) nugget of gold.
"This salt (Ammonium Chlorate) can form when ammonium compounds, such as ammonium nitrate, and chlorates, such as
potassium chlorate, are combined (mechanically or in solution). Ammonium chlorate is a very unstable oxidizer and will
decompose, sometimes violently, at room temperature. It will explode when exposed to sunlight for a few minutes."
Don't do it, you will lose bits of yourself in a way where finding them won't help.
If you have AN, go for some APAN maybe? Or if you have Al and AN, save your Chlorate for something better and just use AN/
Al as stated here before?
Repeat: Don't put the KClO3 in with the AN. Either just use AN/Al or you could try a flash mixture (KClO3/Al) and shoot that.
Edit: Ammonium Perchlorate (NH4ClO4) is "stable", Ammonium Chlorate (NH4ClO3) is very NOT stable. Don't mix them up in
the future, it could mean the difference between having some fun and missing a hand.
jagster April 30th, 2007, 03:34 PM

How come people mix those two up anyway haha. I guess if they did it in a short time it wouldn't hurt anything. I know
boomershoot guys mix up thousands of pounds of this stuff and they havn't had any bad accidents (or at least none they will
admit :D).
I guess then I wonder what is in the scarecrow rimfire targets that can be "set off by a .22LR from up to 150 yards away"...that
must be pretty sensitive.
Regular AN and Al is pretty hard to set off...barely with a .17hmr 2550fps and good with a 223 or 22-250. I guess for now the
only option is the chlorate flash...or chlorate with sulfur ;). I know I know stupid but we'll see.
I don't have the stuff to make AP and it sounds complicated :P. The tannerite guy uses ammonium perchlorate with AN to
"balance" the oxygen or something I guess? I think it makes it a little more sensitive but its still pretty hard to set off. I got it
to work with my .17 but I don't think I have tried straight AN and Al.
And "save your chlorate for something better"...like what? :)

Alexires May 6th, 2007, 05:43 PM
jagster - How come phone made a couple kg of AP anyway? We'll never know.
True, you PROBABLY wouldn't have any problems if you mixed it on site and shot it a minute later. Just remember not to store
it. If you don't set it off, you will have some UXO you will have to take care off, and no one wants to do that.
Chlorate....flashbangs? Making into perchlorate? Various smoke compositions? There is a plethora of things you could do with
chlorate.
We aren't talking about you trying to set it off with a piece of hot nichrome, you are SHOOTING at it. Its can afford to be a
little "insensitive".
"chlorate with sulfur. I know I know stupid but we'll see."
What the hell does that mean? Yes, mixing sulfur with chlorates is stupid. While again, it might not spontaneously detonate
when you add the sulfur, I personally wouldn't risk it unless I made absolutely sure the sulfur was dry and used it
IMMEDIATELY after mixing.
From here (http://www.jpyro.com/journal/issue_12/index.htm)

Abstract: Fireworks formulations were modified to produce compositions containing sulfur/chlorate mixtures, and their thermal
stability and mechanical sensitiveness were studied. The results indicate that the presence of sulfur/chlo*rate mixtures in
fireworks compositions reduces the ignition temperatures to values well below those obtained with compositions that do not
contain the sulfur/chlorate mixture and generally increases the sensitiveness (this was particularly marked in iron-containing
mixtures).
The sulfur/chlorate initiation reaction was examined and the mixture was shown to produce sulfur dioxide on heating. Once
formed, the sulfur dioxide quickly causes potassium chlorate to decompose and pyrotechnic mixtures containing potassium
chlorate to ignite.
Remember, all you need to do is fuck up once, and it may be your last time.
Xenodius May 9th, 2007, 09:58 PM

Hey. I just got an idea...
This might be erring off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread.
I make exploding targets with a 95/5 mix of AN to Al. (Don't mock the acronym from that combo, its unintentional) These
targets explode consistently from a 7.62x39 (#4 barrel Russian SKS w/ poly stock! :D), @ 2.8k fps.
That converts to about +850 m/s, if mental math serves. So, if good flash (2 micron Al here, I think thats +5,000 mesh?
Thats not right... :D :rolleyes: ) has a VoD of 1100 m/s or more (IIRC), which equates to about 3500 fps, good FP could set
off such a target...
Again, IIRC, don't AN/xx mixtures have a VoD of around 6,000 m/s? If this is true, then with due experimentation of the
minimum amount of FP and AN/Al mix required, you could make HE detonators (RDX?) using such simple chemical mixes such
as AN (coldpacks), Aluminum (Foil + ballmill/rock tumbler), and FP, which means you need either something like KNO3 (Stump
remover) and Sulfur (Dusting sulfur should work) or if you can get your hands on KClO4 (Chem/Pyro supplier) make 7:3.
That means you can make HE initiators (The initiator is HE of itself!) with: Instant coldpacks, aluminum foil, a ball mill or rock
tumbler (Milled for like, a week...), stump remover (Purified), and dusting sulfur. All of these are common household items, or
easily purchasable.
Don't forget boric acid if you use KNO3/Sulfur. But for these I would use 7:3, for obvious safety reasons.
jagster May 10th, 2007, 02:08 PM

Yea that sounds like an interesting idea. I know flash is crazy. But as far as your idea, I have done a similar test but on a
larger scale. I took a flash Co2 canister, inside a steel pipe. Then surrounded it with AN+Al and capped it. Lit fuse and threw it
underwater and I know it set off the AN because it through water up like you see in movies with the ship mines.
This just comes from the fact that AN under pressure and heat can decompose. The Al makes it much easier and more
sensitive so I wouldn't think much pressure is needed. I wonder if a good rifle casing with a flash base and then ANAl at top
would work? Might have to try :D
PS: I coudln't resist but making a bit of sulfur KCL3 flash, made 1 gram of it very softly. Then I placed about 1/15 gram on a
rock and tapped with hammer, it exploded like a rifle shot. Very scary stuff so don't ever mess with it in more then 1 gram
quanities.
So what about using a small bridge wire (hair size) electrical contact in a gram of the previous sensitive flash, then send a
capacitive discharged pulse through it (from a disposable camera)? I would think the pop of the spark would be enough to set
this crazy stuff off. I lit some with torch and it flashed quickly but hitting with hammer detonated with very little light. I'm
looking to reproduce that detonating effect with electrical fuse.
What about the standard KClO3/sulfur/conductive lampblack ignitor? I know they are friction and (mostly) shock sensitive, but
if you send a regular current through them I assume it will just burn. But what if a high voltage pulse (stun gun? probably too
low of current) or a 400V capacitor with an instant high current make the pyrogen detonate? The goal here is, again to easily
make a blasting cap. I don't have access to all these crazy acids and don't have the lab equipment nor bravery to synthesis
these other things like AP, etc.
My goal is to be able to set off these rifle targets ANAl, which are more sensitive then ANFO I think, with a fuse or most
probably by electrical means for sure.
I may try the exploding wire in the crazy sulfur flash today and see what happens. I don't know if a small camera cap is
enough to blow up a wire though. A capacitive pulse through the conductive pyrogen mix should be interesting though. I'm
waiting on my lampblack to come in :)
Oh and also, still thinking about the fuse/electrically blasting cap, what about MEKP with different things? I've been trying to
find out more information about it, I've heard people say its fuse sensitive when mixed with KNO3? I doubt that but what
about other things.
Finally, I think this might have been mentioned before, but tanner uses ammonium perchlorate in his mix I think it makes it
more sensitive. Is this really true vs just AN with very fine Al dust? I got one of those rimfire scarecrow targets and mixed small
amounts of it (tablespoons) and they will go off with .22 stinger perfectly. Tim's (I think thats his?) mix sure looks very much
like tannerite, just AN prills with some powdery other substance (ammonium per.?) and a dark powder that is probably just
pyro aluminum lol. I have tried to figure out whats in it but don't really know. Its very powerfull though just like tannerite.
Bert May 18th, 2007, 06:33 PM

4 words: Exploding Bridge Wire Detonator. Lots of discusion of firing circuits and electrical characteristics of shooting wire/
capacitor banks/triggering systems for these here a while back. Search.
dbooksta May 29th, 2007, 10:25 PM

In case anyone was wondering: Loosely confined 70/30 KClO4/Al flash powder does not appear to be sensitive to a 2700 fps
.308 round (http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z209/dbooksta/?action=view&current=FlashPowderHitwith-1.flv).
Bert May 30th, 2007, 11:27 AM

You should have ignition with Antimony sulfide or Sulfur in the mix. A bit of ground glass wouldn't hurt either.
dbooksta May 30th, 2007, 01:47 PM

Is the purpose of the ground glass just to enhance friction effects?
(I'm trying to stay away from anything unpredictable or unstable, so I made a rule when I started that I wouldn't mix sulfur
with flash.)
nbk2000 May 30th, 2007, 02:47 PM

Put it in a steel or iron container and watch it explode.
Loose in a paper container, shot with a copper-jacketed bullet? Not too likely, as there's nothing to spark or solidly absorb the
shock of impact.
Bert May 30th, 2007, 04:30 PM

The ground glass does increase friction, and is a common additive to percussion priming mixes and to some flash powder type
exploding targets sold commercially in the past.
Antimony sulfide and Sulfur both markedly increase friction and shock sensitivity of chlorate mixes. Chlorate and antimony
sulfide/Sulfur have been used as primer compositions, with and without other explosives, oxidizers and fuels. Acid free Sulfur
and acid neutralizers make for safer storage, but you had better thoroughly understand the characteristics of chlorate with
Sulfur and the various sulfides before trying more than sub gram quantities of such mixes.
And in other Tannerite related news- http://tinyurl.com/3d4zsx

This fucktard blew up 4 porta-potties, some street sign, a building and THE DOORS OF A SCHOOL with Tannerite targets and
an AR-15. Look for Tannerite targets to become unavailable in the near future, I expect.
nbk2000 May 30th, 2007, 08:32 PM

Boycott doing (or attending) 4th of July shows in protest of the CPSC ruling! That'd also cover the ability to make tannerites
ourselves.
Zait May 30th, 2007, 09:12 PM

Look for Tannerite targets to become unavailable in the near future, I expect.
That would require re-writing some laws which is generally more diffiucult than people think.
The only impetus I would expect that would change the current laws is if someone used a few thousand pounds of Tannerite
(which is nothing more than AN/AL) to blow up a bldg.
Bacon46 May 30th, 2007, 09:48 PM

The link below is to a video below of an exploding target made with 60% KClO3 / 30% Al and quartz. Any hard stone that will
fit into the tube or container will do.
I take a 1 I.D. paper tube and plug one end with Durhams Water Putty. Once the putty dried I place the stones in the tube
and tap the tube on the table to settle the stones. I prefer larger stones so that there is a lot of space in between them for
flash powder.
Then I gradually pour in 28g of flash powder, GENTLY tapping the tube to get the flash down between the stones.
Plug the end with more putty and there you go. They explode every time with a 22 rim fire.
Substituting Sb2S3 for the Al will work as well but is obviously far more dangerous.
I attached a drawing showing a cross section.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9002/explodingtargetsdc4.jpg
<a href="http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?image=explodingtargetmeeu2.flv"><img src="http://img532.imageshack.us/

img532/7818/explodingtargetmeeu2.flv.th.jpg"/></a>
jagster June 2nd, 2007, 11:06 PM

Hmm, yes dbooksta it works fine I do it all the time, with a 17HMR though hollow point. It works very well. Nice flash and
report. Flash powder is almost too precious to do that with though! Its getting harder to find aluminum..only on ebay it seems
(for the good <2 um flake). Dark Indian Blackhead seems best value for money. German dark is really expensive. Stupid
companies won't sell you aluminum and oxidizer together within a year or more.
Ok so I'm about to lose my mind on this scarecrow stuff. I did some more tests and made some tannerite side by side and
did them and the scarecrow seems much more powerful, in small quantities that is. I do 1/2 dixie cup of it and it makes a ear
ringing bang and annihilates anthills. Tannerite is a softer explosion and not as powerful.
I noticed when mixing up my tannerite that the prills won't get coated very well, this is using my own nitrate from ebay
purchase. I'm not sure if this is part of the reason. Assuming it is, the scarecrow stuff is perfectly coated and there is not a
single white dot in there. It also has a seemingly darker looking mix. EDIT: come to think of it, the tannerite also did this as
he probably uses the 20% air nitrate made for explosives. I guess I'm not doing a true comparison with the regular nitrate but
from what I remember this scarecrow is still better then the tannerite.
I tried then grinding up some AN into powdery and add plenty of aluminum and set it off it was loud but not the amazing
power of scarecrow.
So no one has any ideas? I'm thinking of posing as a doctor and calling havasu research and saying someone has ingested it
and asking what is in it. Then I can play with the ratios from there.
Surely he uses AN but its possible he doesn't. Another forum, if googled, says "tim's mix is completley different then daniel
tanners, and is non-linear.." etc. So I don't know? Maybe he uses another oxidizer or something, I can't imagine anything
louder then tannerite. All I know is those scarecrows are amazing.
And bacon46, 28 grams? Hehe so precious it is though to do that much. Watch out for flying rocks!!! ;)
jagster June 3rd, 2007, 11:40 AM

By the way, has anyone seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXzcx4Ots-M
A commentor claims this is FIXOR explosive which (by us patent) consists of a nitroparaffin (nitromethane) and a filler silicone
dioxide like cabosil and glass microspheres.
There is no way this is sensitive to heat? Would be easy to get a hold of those materials though all on ebay lol. Could be fun
to play with. There is an old thread that mentions fixor also.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=51&page=2
Any comments? It would be cool to have a fuse detonateable binary like that. Only thing that I know of sensitive like that is
red phosphorus mix or something..
nbk2000 June 3rd, 2007, 04:04 PM

That video has already been discussed and discredited. It's not FIXOR either.
dbooksta June 11th, 2007, 02:06 PM

I was out at the range again and some guy had mixed up a bunch of exploding targets. See the FTP site Uploads / "Exploding
Targets.wmv" for video.
Targets were 1 ounce of either KClO4/Al FP or 10% ammonal (AN + 10% 2-micron Al) packed into 1.5" PVC pipe. 100% of the
samples went off with a 2900fps .308 hit.
Interestingly, the FP didn't need anything special to explode -- whether the pipe was sealed with metal or plastic didn't seem
to make a difference. Also, exploding FP seems to be roughly as powerful as ammonal (though 2-3 times as expensive!).
There is one shot in the video where an FP target takes a peripheral hit and more burns than explodes, but when it takes a
direct hit it goes fast.
Now some questions:
1. Does AN that comes in little beads (prills?) need to be ground to make effective ammonal? The targets here used ground
AN, b ut I don t kno w if thats n ecessary or helpful.
2. Some 10% ammonal wasn t sealed in the pipe. After a few minu tes in a hum id workroom it turned into a viscous goo. Is
that a normal phase of ammonal, or doe s that mean it s a bsorbing water and d eactivating? (Some a lso fell o n duct steel an d
sta rted corrod ing it within a few hours , so it obviously do e s n t play well with others.)
3. What is the shelf life of sealed ammonal?
4. What are standard ways of protecting AN compounds from humidity? Are there dessicants -- more hygroscopic than AN --
that are normally used to protect the AN?
nbk2000 June 12th, 2007, 02:50 AM

1.Not if there's enough of it with a powerful enough booster, but for small amounts, it's important.
2. It's getting wet and deactivating.
3. As long as the air-tight seal lasts.
4. Air-tight sealing, or mixing in with non-porous/water-insoluble binders/explosives. Wax or TNT are such examples.
flashpoint June 12th, 2007, 11:03 PM

I know this thread is old...but I found this.
"Tannerite is made from Zirconium Hydride (ZrH2) and an oxidizer, Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3)."
jagster,
Yes, you can use an oven to dry AN, or a hotplate set on low.
Bert June 13th, 2007, 02:14 PM

You could go to the US Patent Office http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm and look at the actual patent
information for US patent 6,848,366.
Then you could edit your post before too many people say rude things.
jagster June 13th, 2007, 02:52 PM

I obtained some AN from ebay and it has a soft fluffy texture (I assume then that it is dry?...but does a fluffy texture mean it
is? havn't tried drying it out yet) but after shooting it with a 4000 fps 22-250 with 10% AL it did nothing. I was so disappointed.
I put some in water and it DID get cold, and torched some and it appeared to melt as the other AN that I have did. So my
question is do you guys think there is something else in the powder? It seems to act the same. I'm consulting with the seller
about his supplier but I don't know if anything will go through with that.
If there is, I think it can be washed or something?
If I may, NBK where was this video discredited at, the fixor one from youtube I asked about earlier?
Bert June 13th, 2007, 05:23 PM

Read the patent... And describe particle size and shape of the Al powder.
EDIT:
Jagster-
The patent site and number (6,848,366) referenced in my post above replying to flashpoint is the patent application for
Tannerite. Describes makeup and percentage ranges found useful of the two components. You don't mention using ca. 15%
NH3ClO4 in your oxidizer mix, just straight NH3NO3. Others have
reported success without the ammonium perchlorate, and still others have not bothered with sponge Titanium and Zirconium
hydride while still claiming success. Just TRY to go buy some Zirconium hydride... Unless you are well connected and find some
military surplus, good luck.
I have no idea what "military star gradeflake Al" might be either. It is more common to use spherical Al for stars in my
experience, and several others have noted a tendency for here today-gone tommorow web sellers to sell annything they can
as "flash Al".

Patent for what?
The aluminum was the finest around, <2 um military grade (don't ask me why its military but thats what it was advertised as
"military star grade" on some obscure website which was soon thereafter taken down...)
Its 2 micron star grade flake
I know this is probably a newbie question but with regards to the site's ftp, I assume everyone is referring to TMP's ftp? I just
asked him for an access.
Is that the one you are referring to dbooksta?
jagster June 14th, 2007, 09:48 AM

I read around here on forums and I think I will try activating the AN (although I have NEVER done that before and it seems to
have worked fine, and this seems dry already).
If that doens't work I could wash it with some solvent or acetone or alchohol to get rid of any possible inhibitors or waxes or
such?
dbooksta June 14th, 2007, 02:26 PM

Yes, video is on tmp's FTP.
BTW, can you detail the containers for the targets you were trying? This other thread suggests that confinement of ammonal is
essential to getting it to detonate with a bullet (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=57589&postcount=12) --
presumably because you need some compression to support the shockwave:
The bullet must hit an object inside the container in order for the comp to work. Unless, the container itself is quite durable. A
bullet can and does move right through the comp if there is not compression for the comp. I have hit many non-confined an/
al mixes with no luck, nothing. But have take then same comp and put it inside a container, viola!.

Nah, when you use that precious 2 micron flake its so wicked it doesn't take confinement. I just use dixie cups with a 2550 fps
17 hmr and works flawlessly, prilled or not. Thats why its so weird that it dind't go off even with 4000 fps 22-250. Got a crock
pot yesterday will try drying it out and/or activating it this weekend.
Keep in mind this does work with my other nitrate just this one batch doesn't. But as far as I know its pure powder nitrate but
something is obviously wrong. Maybe there is some hidden moisture i'm hoping (even though its pretty fluffy)...we'll see.
And as far as flash Al goes...there is a guy on ebay who says indian blackhead 2 micron..the best there is period..that wont'
be around very long. He is on his last drum he said. I went ahead and invested ;). Get it while you still can!
Injunction on firefox now..1lb/yr and 25ft/year of fuse of any oxidizer, etc now. Its a complete joke. So now it will be fun to try
to get perchlorate or chlorates in future; but there will always be fireworks shows and stuff i guess hopefully.
trigul1 June 15th, 2007, 02:50 PM

look at this address for the compositions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannerite
Xenodius June 15th, 2007, 11:24 PM

Jagster:
I recently bought some AN on ebay that was extremely fine, supposedly 99.8% pure, 16lbs of it. Its not AN, I can tell you that.
Did you buy yours from amscomputerpro? His AN is a hoax.
I wasted a ton of money making over a pound of targets with it...
Even my Zinc/AN mixes just foamed instead of catching flame.
Alexires June 16th, 2007, 12:18 AM

*wince* Hate to be a prick, but this is a chemistry related forum.
Sure, if you were talking about some fairly long named and uncommon chemical, it would be excusable to accidentally put the
wrong subscript number (maybe), but twice in a row on something as common as an Ammonium compound?
Ammonia - NH3. Its a gas at STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure).
The Ammonium ion - NH4+. This is the "Ammonium" part of "Ammonium Nitrate/Perchlorate/etc." It's NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4
people.
We get people that are new to chemistry, and we should try and keep things clean for them, so that they learn good habits
early.
Jagster - If it's fluffy, I don't think it is as dry as it could be. With something as hygroscopic as Ammonium Nitrate, you should
definitely consider drying it before use otherwise you might have a dud (such as you did above). You will find instructions and
suggestions on drying it around the forum. Also, activating it will help, but you need to keep it DRY. I don't mean just in a
container, but as dry as you possibly can being as absolutely anal-retentive about it as possible.

Xenodius: hahaha yea man its him...I dryed it out for a while today in a crock pot it reached about 260 degrees F or so left it
there a few hours. It started smelling of ammonia also so its some sort of percentage AN in it. It formed some harder klumps
it seems not sure if that was the AN melting a bit or some sort of wax precipitating out or what very disappointed though. Will
try it with targets tomorrow. I bought his 12lb lot. It DID get cold though in water a little so I think its some amount of AN but
not sure. I've been corresponding with him he claims its pure and he claims his supplier claims its pure so I don't know what
the deal is.
What exactly does activating it do? I guess semi convert it to explosives grade type AN? I read megalomania's thread on that
and I don't think it mentioned WHAT it does just that you need to do it. I have never done it, just straight AN from any source
have had no problems with...knew a friend who worked at a fertilizer place and he just scraped some off floor lol it works great!
I keep hoping I can get this 12 lb to work though its a sad waiste if I can't. You sure its not doable Xenodius?
One thing not to trust is no one ever crushes it to powder and sells it...its always prills. Should have red flagged that and not
gotten it :(. I wonder if I should give him a bad rating? :D
nbk2000 June 16th, 2007, 12:11 PM

Melt some on a steel wire and see what color it gives off in the torch flame. That'll give you an idea if it has potassium/
sodium/calcium in it, and that'll give you a clue to what the contaminant is.
It's most likely some mix with calcium nitrate, which is common, though I don't recall what it's called.
Xenodius June 16th, 2007, 01:40 PM

Jagster: I would definitely give him a -1. I know 2 people, plus you, who bought from him with similar results.
He continues to claim its 99.8% pure AN in our dispute ticket... I have tested otherwise :mad:.
Regardless of purity, whatever he is selling is, in fact, NOT ammonium nitrate, at least not the percent he claims.
As far as it being having calcium nitrate in it... I will have to test that soon; I wouldn't be surprised.

Yea let me know what you come up with. I would give him bad rating but I almost don't want to because he will give me the
same and I have 100% :). I might try the flame tests.
Ah well everything isn't always perfect this is the first mess up I've had with ebay.

jagster - I believe that activating the Ammonium Nitrate changes the crystalline structure of it, making it more capable of
absorbing the oil when being used for ANFO. It's it normally done in multiple stages, but needs to be kept dry, otherwise it will
revert to whatever crystalline structure the temperature that it dries out at refers to.
So basically, when you activate Ammonium Nitrate, you increase the surface area that the Fuel Oil can interact with, and
increase the ability of the Ammonium Nitrate to absorb said Fuel Oil.
nbk2000 June 17th, 2007, 09:31 AM

Give him a bad, and provide a link to a video of the tests, so he can't deny it, and looks like a punk if he gives you bad rep in
retaliation. Then you've got a basis for complaining to E-bay about his goods and abuse of the rep system, and can get his
ass banned. :)
Bert June 18th, 2007, 02:04 AM

jagster - I believe that activating the Ammonium Nitrate changes the crystalline structure of it, making it more capable of
absorbing the oil when being used for ANFO.
If you read the first section of Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives (pp. 49-50) regarding other propellants than
BP. you will note that "amonpulvar" (black powder type composition with ammonium nitrate instead of Potassium or Sodium
nitrates) is low smoke and about as powerful as some smokeless powders, but has a drawback that made it unsuitable for
wide military use- The ammonium nitrate goes through a crystal phase change a little above 32 C that breaks up the grains
with repeated cycles, changing the burning characteristics by increaseing the surface area. Increased surface area is a good
thing for certain other uses...
Cobalt.45 June 18th, 2007, 10:22 AM

*wince* Hate to be a prick, but this is a chemistry related forum.
....
Who is this directed at? I see no butchering of formulas in this thread.

Me, I think. Cut and pasted the subscript script from another post in a hurry, didn't correct the number.
Cobalt.45 June 18th, 2007, 07:41 PM

I see it now.
Me, I think. Cut and pasted the subscript script from another post in a hurry, didn't correct the number.
You mention cut and pasting from another post. I don't see the screw up in any other posts. So, where was it cut/pasted from?
I hope the Tannerite targets stay available and that no litigation is directed at them. But like the guys who are selling
"survival" report comp (supposed to be used in emergency situations:rolleyes: ), he might have problems, eventually.

Survival report composition!? Haven't heard of that :).
I just noticed this posting went on to page 5, woops I feel stupid now.
Anyways, yea he gave me a good rating so I can retaliate now. I haven't been able to do some more formal testing with guns
will this weekend finally. Have been away from home on business for a while. He seems so honest though in his emails and he
supposedly talked to his supplier and his supplier said it was pure as far as he knows except for maybe some ammonium
sulfate to do whatever.
I havn't tested it since I dried it out in a crock pot for a long time. I wonder if mixing it with cabosil will help; I recently bought
10lb I have an enormous amount of it. Its awesome stuff though. Cabosil scares me in making flash though because its so
perfectly drys things that static becomes a problem...in a bag of cabosil you can point your finger and it will indent a valley into
the powder due to static.
Any more updates on that test on the calcium xenodius?
HemiDodge July 2nd, 2007, 09:25 PM

I am new here, however, I have been reading a lot lately on the exploding targets.
I got a hold of 60# of AN prills today. I took a pound of the prills, ground it to a fine powder and mixed in 10% by weight of AL
powder. I put this in a 32 oz food storage container and shot at 100 yds with a .22-250 (4000 fps).
My god!! What a report.
My question is, if I mix this and put it in film canisters for plinking at 100 yds, how long will it stay good. I could silicone the lid
shut in order to ensure that moisture would stay out.
I noticed that after mixing another batch and putting it in 8 oz containers, sealed, the mix was clumping together. I am
worried that with the AN being hydroscopic that it could become less reactive or worthless. The containers should be sealed,
and I put a bead of silicone around the lid to make sure. Just wondering what the shelf life would be if sealed 100%.
Thanks!
jagster July 3rd, 2007, 02:31 AM

Just keep your AN dry. If you seal it it should work. Just don't let BATF find out your a storing a HE mix.
I use dixie cups and mix them at time of use for reports. They work nicely. Enough to blow chunks out of stumps if you place
them to the side or in a little. Even funner to drill a hole and fill it up with the stuff then shoot it with .17HMR :)
Incredible stuff. My nitrate ground partially to powder stays good in a normal zip lock bag...
22-250 is one of my favorite rounds..wickedly fast and will knock that mix into detonation perfectly. The 2550 17HMR though,
is much quieter gun and always works with good fine aluminum. The crappier paint grade will work with the faster caliber
though. I have to use ear plugs for my break open 22-250 its so freakin loud, then that silences the explosion which I don't
like :(
Bacon46 July 7th, 2007, 10:30 AM

My son and I went shooting on the Forth. Here are a few videos of some KClO3/Al exploding targets we shot using his 7.62 x
54 Mossin / Nagant and a Ruger 10/22.
An exploding target placed inside an Epson C64 printer.

http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=epson64ewxx7.flv
An exploding target placed inside an Epson 8400 printer.

http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=epson8400ewoj4.flv
Exploding target attached to a one gallon can of camping stove fuel.

http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ewfuelshot2ly5.flv
An exploding target sitting next to a can of spray paint.

http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=paintcanshotewfi4.flv
Another target attached to a one gallon can of camping stove fuel.

http://img531.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fuelshotoneewki3.flv
I am getting ready to move. Disposing of things like camp stove fuel and spray paint in the landfill is illegal. :D
Cobalt.45 July 7th, 2007, 10:20 PM

Nice! Were these made with the 60% KClO3/ 30% Mg/ 10% quartz you mentioned earlier?
About what was the weight of the charges?
Enkidu July 7th, 2007, 10:59 PM

Disposing of things like camp stove fuel and spray paint in the landfill is illegal. :D
Nice of you to post vids with someone's face in it for the kindly LEOs. Might I suggest that that's not overly wise?
You may be guilty of a 'small' crime, but, considering you post on a place like this, who knows what crime some ignorant,
arrogant do-gooder will try to pin on you? Better safe than sorry, IMHO.
Bacon46 July 7th, 2007, 11:10 PM

Nice! Were these made with the 60% KClO3/ 30% Mg/ 10% quartz you mentioned earlier?
About what was the weight of the charges?
Same targets but it's 2:1 KClO3/Al flash powder. For the newbie s that's 2:1 by weigh t. You can substitute KClO4 for the
KClO3 with the same results.
The amount of quartz depends on the size of the container. I use stones ranging from 1/2" (12.7mm) up to 6" (152.4mm).
The devices attached to the fuel cans were 2" (50.8mm)I.D. x 7" (177.8mm) long cardboard tubes with 1/4" (6.35mm) thick
walls. See attached picture.
<a href="http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=explodingfueltargetmx9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://

img216.imageshack.us/img216/6822/explodingfueltargetmx9.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at
www.ImageShack.us" /></a>
After plugging the ends there wa s approxima tely 9.5 ci of space to fill. I used enough (19mm) stones to fill that space.
Before adding the flash I vibrate the tube to settle the stones into the tube. Because of the size and irregular shape of the
stones there is enough air space in between them to add the flash; In this case 2 oz (56.69g) with room to spare. As long as
all of the stone have a just a dusting of flash powder you can set the target off with any caliber rifle or handgun. I have never
had one fail.
I fill the space with stones for two reasons. The first is I want to make sure the bullet strikes a stone. The second is if the
stones are confined tightly in the container they are less likely strike each other and cause an explosion if the device is
accidentally dropped.
I get the cardboard tubes at the drycleaners down the street. They are the tubes that the clothing bags come on. They are
heavy duty and they are more than happy to give them to you.
nbk2000 July 8th, 2007, 04:51 AM

Nice work. :)
Though Endiku is correct about the videos. It is a bannable offense, as it makes prosecution too easy, removing any plausible
deniability.
Edit them as indicated in your PM, and re-upload.
dbooksta July 8th, 2007, 11:04 AM

What exactly are the quartz stones doing to sensitize the FP? Bert noted that ground glass is frequently used to increase
friction in percussion mixes (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=91302&postcount=77). But large stones
suggest a different mechanism might be at work. I can imagine:
1. The bullet deforming against a hard target (rock) instantaneously heats the bullet lead above the ignition temperature for
FP. (Causing deflagration due to ignition by temperature alone.)
2. The bullet compresses a tiny amount of FP against the rock, initiating deflagration by increased temperature and pressure
on the FP compound.
3. The collision of the bullet with the rock produces a shockwave that "detonates" the FP.
None of these would seem to require that the hard target be quartz.
Bacon46 or anyone have experience suggesting quartz is more effective than any other hard rock?

2. The bullet compresses a tiny amount of FP against the rock, initiating deflagration by increased temperature and pressure
on the FP compound.
None of these would seem to require that the hard target be quartz.
Bacon46 or anyone have experience suggesting quartz is more effective than any other hard rock?
I would go with number two. You have a bullet impacting a rock coved in flash. You are going to have an incredible amount of
compression and more than likely sparks. It is not necessary to use quartz but the harder the stone the better. More sparks.
You could probably use nut and bolts. Anything hard you have lying around that won't react with the flash powder would work.
I live in an area where quartz and granite are abundant so that is what I use. I can pick up either stone in my yard. In the
desert we have very little soil. We have granite in two forms, solid or decomposed; Quartz ranging from size stones to
boulders weighing several tons, the remainder is volcanic or river rock. When shooting in the desert, bullets hit these rocks;
there is no way to avoid it. Most of the time when bullets hit them sparks fly, so I decided to experiment with using these
sparks to set off flash powder. It hasnt failed me yet.:D
I havent used river rock yet but it is hard as hell and would probably be another option.
jagster July 8th, 2007, 01:19 PM

I haven't seen these videos? I assume the post was deleted. I saw them the other day on dialup and waited until I get to high
speed to watch and now they are gone :(.
Please re-upload with correct editing bacon46 I would love to see. I plan to try a similar thing with a candle in the background
(as straight reactive targets will not ignite the vapor blast) to light a pile of wood :D.
Cobalt.45 July 8th, 2007, 11:04 PM

What exactly are the quartz stones doing to sensitize the FP?
I would think that the energy released in the form of fast, sharp, hard particles when the quartz stone (or any smallish, hard
stone) is hit by a bullet is more than enough to initiate the ignition.
Like many tiny but powerful hammer blows. I don't think that a spark is necessary to set it off.

I haven't seen these videos? I assume the post was deleted. I saw them the other day on dialup and waited until I get to high
speed to watch and now they are gone :(.
Please re-upload with correct editing bacon46 I would love to see. I plan to try a similar thing with a candle in the background
(as straight reactive targets will not ignite the vapor blast) to light a pile of wood :D.
I fucked up and had to edit the videos.:o I have already uploaded the edited videos and sent new links to NBK. He will edit
the original post using the new links and repost it when he has the time.
nbk2000 July 9th, 2007, 05:47 AM
I re-upped the modified video links.
Also, I think that since you're using quartz, you're getting electric sparks from the piezoelectric effect of the mechanical impact
of the bullet against the quartz crystals.

Very nice vids. Will have to try that but now KClO3/4 (and aluminum, besides ebay) is so precious since that idiot judge filed
against firefox. Much prefer tannerite type targets, with an open flame in vicinity to set off the vapor cloud :D. Plan to use it to
light a trash pile.
dbooksta July 10th, 2007, 11:27 AM

Since ammonal is so much cheaper than FP I'd like to figure out how to extend its shelf life and increase its sensitivity using
readily available compounds. I tried shooting some excess samples that had been sitting around for two weeks under foam-
seal screw-top lids and they didn't work.
Current ideas:
For shelf life I'm thinking of desiccants -- maybe Cab-O-Sil or sodium silicate. Are these more hygroscopic than AN?
For sensitivity either adding 15% ammonium perchlorate (presumably will eagerly oxidize the Al?) or 6% charcoal powder
(known to sensitize/boost AN).
Final thought is to soak the compound in fuel oil which could both boost the AN and keep moisture away from it.

I wouldn't think the fuel oil would help but the ammonium perchlorate does as tanner adds some in his mix. I can't tell the
difference really in sensitivity though. I've compared both seem the same as long as you use the beautiful fine aluminum (<2
micron indian blackhead) :D.
Almost too precious to use but thats what I bought it for is to use not worship :)
Alexires July 11th, 2007, 03:06 AM

As the sensitivity of Ammonal is really too much of an issue (it isn't likely to go off if you look at it wrong), why not try coating
it in some kind of water proof/resistant material?
As the problem is moisture (affecting the AN and the Al) you need to stop that from happening. Try drying your Ammonal to
as dry as you can get it, coat it in cling-wrap or put it in a cardboard mailing tube, then either dipping it in just melted wax or
covering it with some kind of silicon glue.
"Ammonal used for military mining purposes was generally contained within metal cans or rubberised bags to prevent moisture
ingress problems." - Wikipedia on Ammonal.
Try coating it in something is the short answer.
I'd be dubious as to putting NH4ClO4 into your Ammonal and THEN dipping it in hot wax.....
Bacon46 July 11th, 2007, 10:45 AM

To prevent damage from moisture I coat my cardboard tubes inside and out with shellac.
After plugging one end and allowing that plug to dry I fill the tube shellac and then pour the excess back into the can. After
that dries (in around 30 minutes) I assemble the target, allow the second plug to dry and then dip the target into the shellac
to coat the outside.
I do this to all of the pyrotechnic devices that I make with cardboard tubes and have never had a problem with moisture. I do
live in the desert where humidity is rarely above 20%, but shellac does an excellent job of keeping out moisture.
Very nice vids. Will have to try that but now KClO3/4 (and aluminum, besides ebay) is so precious since that idiot judge filed
against firefox..
I can produce a pound (453g) of KClO3 per week in my 4 gallon (22.73 liter) chlorate cell so flash powder is cheaper for me.

Chlorate cell? Oh do elaborate :).
Bacon46 July 16th, 2007, 10:18 AM

Chlorate cell? Oh do elaborate :).
I have posted the specifications to the above metnioned chlorate cell in a thread related to cholate production. The link below
is to that post.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=92667#post92667
embeebee October 6th, 2007, 03:32 AM

Ok, So, I got my Type 20 from ATF and I've been experimenting with exploding targets. I can personally vouch for the fact
that blasting grade Ammonium Nitrate mixed with aluminum powder makes a wonderful exploding target.
USE
I've found that an aluminum powder concentration from 1% through 8% will work with the sweet spot being between 3% and
7%. Being somewhat of a perfectionist I am trying to figure out what the best percentage is. I've been using 625 mesh
spherical that I got on eBay. I think I prefer 5% since I use a teaspoon and a half per cup of Ammonium Nitrate, that works
out to 5%.
PARAGRAPH
But, I want the most powerful explosion for any given amount of Ammonium Nitrate. I've been researching blast pressure
sensors and I don't think I'll be able to afford a real one. This is what brings me here tonight. Does anyone know of a simple
contraption that exists for measuring blast overpressure? I just need something that can show that one shot is more or less
powerful than another shot. I guess I could put an anvil on top of one and measure the hang time with a stopwatch but that
seems kind of crude and would probably be pretty inconsistent.
BREAKS
Stay Legal, Stay Safe.
Bert October 6th, 2007, 10:57 AM

Google "Ballistic pendulum".
Cobalt.45 October 6th, 2007, 11:02 PM

Being somewhat of a perfectionist I am trying to figure out what the best percentage is. I've been using 625 mesh spherical
that I got on eBay. I think I prefer 5% since I use a teaspoon and a half per cup of Ammonium Nitrate, that works out to 5%.
In your pursuit of perfection, you might want to weigh your components.
And, yea, anvil hang-time tends to be a bit inconsistent.:rolleyes:
Seriously though. You might try using a dB meter if nothing else pans out.
embeebee October 13th, 2007, 03:04 AM

Ok, Here's my new and improved follow-up post...fortified with punctuation, paragraph breaks, and many essential vitamins
and minerals! :)
The targets I've been making to date have been carefully measured as 1 cup each of AN. But I do agree that the weight will
fluctuate as the amount of "fines" in each measured cup probably increases as I get closer to the bottom of each bucket of
AN.
I have yet to determine the effect of the "fines" to "prills" ratio on the end result.
One thing I hope to accomplish soon is to get an estimate of the detonation velocity by filling paper tubes with the AL/AN mix
and then measuring the time between when two loops of wire that are each wrapped around the tube, and spaced a known
distance apart, are severed by the passing shock wave. This event will be measured by using an FPGA prototyping card as a
stopwatch.
I know this doesn't measure the shock wave directly but it should approximate the speed at which the target container bursts
from end-to-end, which, I theorize is fairly close to the detonation velocity.
I'll be trying that test with different concentrations of AL/AN and different consistencies of AN (untreated, prills only, fines only,
crushed prills and fines).
I thought about the SPL meter option but my little Radio Shack meter doesn't seem to be able to capture transient events as
evidenced by trying to clap my hands near it.
Also, FWIW, recent testing has shown that the velocity threshold for achieving detonation of a target when using .223 soft
point bullets is 2500fps. I don't have much data but it seemed like 5% was a little more sensitive than 3%.
Stay legal, stay safe
Cobalt.45 October 13th, 2007, 04:24 AM

Interesting.
Have you used different design bullets to see if one is better than another? I would think that unless the target is made from
some resistant material, the round would pass through w/o much expansion.
It would be nice to be able to use cheap ball ammo.
Charles Owlen Picket October 13th, 2007, 11:10 AM

A very long time ago I did try an experiment similar to the alteration of bullet shape to achieve greater initiation. What I
found was interesting.
The initiation was created by a "hot spot" of impact. That area could be very small in area, as there seemed to be little
difference in soft-point, HP or ball ammo in reactivity of a give chemical model.
If sensitivity was high, the Hot Spot could be very uniform and the results the same as if a .45-70 SP were used instead of a
cheap Wolf .223. When you think about it, there are a variety of forces in play.
Impact, friction, & heat are all achieved by bullet impact. The "point" (IMO) is not the issue so much as the parameter
(circumference) of the bullet as it passes through the material. Thus the "hot Spot" is the circumference of the bullet and any
compression (the tip) is an added bonus. Given a sensitive material - it varied very little if a Ball were used. In the given
experiment I watched (chlorate based) there was no difference.
I think of it this way: If one source of ignition were used to initiate a material compared with two sources, would two sources of
ignition (a larger area of friction, impact, & heat) archive a "better" or even more efficient method? If a (per)chlorate based
flash comp were ignited by two fuses (or a thicker fuse) would that make any real difference in the ignition of the flash comp?
Could that even be measured by available means?
Cobalt.45 October 13th, 2007, 03:23 PM

Quoted by COP: "I think of it this way: If one source of ignition were used to initiate a material compared with two sources,
would two sources of ignition (a larger area of friction, impact, & heat) archive a "better" or even more efficient method?"
Depends on your concept of "better". If a larger or more energetic explosion is the bench mark, then probably not.
But if reliability is an issue, then possibly so.
What I was seeking is empirical info on the mixture MBB is working with, but thanks for your input.
Alexires October 23rd, 2007, 02:57 AM

One thing I hope to accomplish soon is to get an estimate of the detonation velocity by filling paper tubes with the AL/AN mix
and then measuring the time between when two loops of wire that are each wrapped around the tube, and spaced a known
distance apart, are severed by the passing shock wave. This event will be measured by using an FPGA prototyping card as a
stopwatch.
If I remember correctly embeebee, you may have a problem with that as the explosive forms a plasma for a little while, and
plasma is electrically conductive.
I'm not very good with electrical things, so if you've already got that planned out, then good on you.
If you haven't, perhaps there is a way to start the timer using a fluctuation of voltage/current and stop it again when there is
another fluctuation. As I understand it, current is a measure of charged particles moving past a point at a certain time. I'm
pretty sure a plasma would lower/raise resistance, and hence make it measurable.
Positron October 23rd, 2007, 11:04 PM

TANNERITE: This has probably been done before, although I've searched and cannot find anything. I'd like to report that a
friend and I have successfully detonated many bottles of this stuff using simple 70/30 KCL04/Al flash powder "detonators".
Yes, it does seem to work. We were blowing very large holes in the side of a "mud cliff" using this method, and my gut-feel
tells me that the explosions were at least reasonably efficient. A single 1/2lb. bottle would knock out a 4-foot diameter hole in
the hard-packed mud and clay (dry). The wires that we had coming out of the blast holes were all zig-zagged after the
explosion; A testament I believe, to the stuff going high-order.
------------
Ammonal: The following are the results of a quick sensitivity test that a friend and I have recently done, using 7% AN/AL and
a 17HMR rifle.
Ammonium Nitrate: Obtained from instant cold packs that were purchased via a popular internet auction site. The seller often
sells these in lots of 125. I took the AN from these, ground the prills in a blender, and laid the powder onto an aluminum
cookie sheet. This was placed in an oven and baked for about an hour at 100 deg. C. The powder was placed in a ziplock bag
immediately after drying, due to its hygroscopicity.
Aluminum Powder: 2-micron (or three, I can't remember) "Indian-Blackhead". Nice stuff.
Ratio: 93% AN, 7% AL.
This mix was measured out into three plastic camera-film canisters. Each canister contained very close to 22.67 grams (350
grains) of the described material, which nearly filled the canisters to the top.
Test Results: Partial detonations were had, when the film canisters were shot at nearly point-blank range (30 feet) with a
17HMR rifle, using CCI "TNT" ammunition. The advertised muzzle velocity of this ammunition is 2550FPS. I say "partial
detonations" due to the fact that there was a significant amount of un-reacted material sprayed into the phone-books that
were placed directly behind the canisters. How much, I don't know, but probably at least 10%.
The explosions appeared weak to me, but did tear the phone-books up quite nicely. They were pretty much ripped apart, and
oddly "sliced" in different directions (pressure!!).
------------
Electronics talk: Embeebee, the technique you describe to measure VoD sounds like a good one, though I do believe that the
only equipment needed would be a simple digital oscilloscope. Channel 1 "watches" the first wire loop, and channel 2 watches
the other. Put a 9 volt battery on each loop or something, and use identical lengths of wire (preferably coax cable) to connect
the scope to the test setup near the explosive. Keep in mind that you're measuring very fast signals, and that you may need
to use transmission-line and/or RF techniques to keep the signals clean.
The time between the waveform anomalies (on the scope's screen) and the physical distance between the wire loops would tell
VoD. Simple.
...Instead of wire loops, perhaps a more accurate method would be to run a very small gauge wire through the middle of the
tube?
Also, yep, I'd scrap the Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter for this type of work. Use your own transducer (a small speaker)
and that storage-scope to obtain RELATIVE pressure levels.
------------
Thanks to all of you for a great forum. 'Twas my first post.

dbooksta October 25th, 2007, 08:18 PM
Shoot, I have been assuming that 7% Ammonal is functionally equivalent to Tannerite. Since Positron noted over here (http://
roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5715&page=3) that Flash Powder reliably detonated Tannerite but NOT Ammonal I'm
intrigued.
I wonder if there's some special interaction between potassium perchlorate in the FP and either zirconium hydride or
ammonium perchlorate in the Tannerite -- or if the Tannerite really is just more sensitive in some critical dimension.
AFAIK nobody has gotten Tannerite to detonate with bullets any slower than will also detonate Ammonal. Though I haven't
heard of anyone testing bullets between 1400fps and 2400fps, so maybe there's a critical difference manifest in that range.
(Both substances detonate with .17HMR's at 2400fps, but fail with .22's approaching 1400fps.)
Lots of stuff to test on this....
black mamba January 18th, 2008, 04:41 PM

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3a7_1200611038
Jan 17 2008 RED WING, Minn.

A 30-year-old man from Welch Township has been charged with 3 felonies after a huge explosion on his property prompted
authorities to put the Prairie Island nuclear plant a mile away on alert.
Prosecutors claim Childs bought 100 pounds of the explosive Tannerite off the Internet. The explosive was loaded into the
rear end of a dump truck on Sunday and detonated by a .50-caliber rifle round.
Childs told investigators the explosion sent debris up to a quarter-mile away.
Goodhue County prosecutors on Wednesday charged Brian Wesley Childs with gross disregard for human life and several
lesser charges. All told, he was charged with three felonies and five lesser counts.
Childs was released from jail without bail on Wednesday.
His attorney, Joseph M. Paiement of Lakeland, said on Thursday that he anticipated filing motions to dismiss the charges
ahead of Childs' next hearing on Feb. 22.
"We intend to challenge, particularly, the felony charges," he said. "I think that was over-charged."
Paiement noted that no one was hurt in the incident, there was no allegation that Childs acted maliciously and no property was
damaged _ except for the dump truck.
Paiement said he suspected prosecutors filed such serious charges because the explosion happened so close to the nuclear
plant. "That clearly is behind a lot of this," he said.
megalomania January 18th, 2008, 07:30 PM

I was going to post about this last night after someone told me about it. He made a video of the explosion where he blew up
his pickup truck. I forget what the link is, it's on my portable drive...
http://wm.kare.gannett.edgestreams.net/news/news/011708_492819_rawexplosion_kare.wmv?213436524624&MSWMExt=.asf
Does anyone know how to save these files? I have 2 different plugins for firefox to save flash videos and the like, but they
never work.
wymanthescienceman January 19th, 2008, 02:47 AM

Thanks for the link Mega, I promptly saved it to my HDD in case it gets removed. I use WM Recorder 12 to save any flash
type media or other streams to my HDD. Simple to use, in fact it will automatically save all media you visit if you want, kind of
annoying sometimes as it will capture almost everything media related, but it works and does it well IMO.
EDIT - Awesome video BTW!!
Bert January 19th, 2008, 11:36 AM

"Let's blow up a huge charge right down the road from the nuclear reactor!" Good idea-NOT!
Mr. Childs blew up an old dump box off a dump truck, not an actual truck. He did this in my area, and his thoughtlessness has
allready had negative repercussions on me through a shitstorm of terrified NIMBYs who think that his stupid amateurish
actions with high explosives bear some resemblance to our legal, permitted and insured fireworks business. It's doubtful that
he will be convicted of the entire shotgun barrage of charges that were thrown at him, but he is definitely guilty of pissing off
the cops and his neighbors.
(edit)
http://www.hastingsstargazette.com/articles/index.cfm?id=19057&section=homepage&property_id=26
He admitted to the cops that the metal debris flew past the spectators, over an adjoining road and into property other than his
own. He should be convicted of the charges related to recklessness and endangerment, IMHO. Looking at his criminal record,
I'd say my snap judgement of his personality and intelligence are spot on.
Charles Owlen Picket January 20th, 2008, 12:05 PM

It's tough to believe that anyone would not be aware of the repercussions of doing anything of that nature near a nuclear
facility....Mr Childs is a blathering dumb shit who brought bad Joo-joo on himself and attempted to make this a "professional
entertainment event" in the superficialities of his first police contact. Thus, this fucktard does a great deal of harm due to his
base stupidity.
A nuclear facility of any type is a damn high security rig. In today's climate of fear and political undercurrent; going near them
is unwise. Blowing something up in their presence is a Darwinian Mark of Cain....too stupid to breed. I really get angry at this
type of crap because it brings with it so many repercussions in so many areas.
megalomania January 26th, 2008, 06:59 PM

He probably severely underestimated the yield of his explosive when he set it up. He was on his own property, which should be
a credit in his favor. I have a right to do on my land what I want, as long as I don't hurt anyone. That is what freedom is. He
didn't attack a nuclear power plant, he didn't trespass and destroy fedgov property.
I think the fedgov overreacted and is making a federal case out of a harmless incident. Where do you draw the line as to how
far away a nuclear reactor can be before you can do something like this? If anyone else did this exact same thing, two, three,
four miles or more away we never have heard about it because no one would care. Perhaps it is a bit unfair to expect this fella
to adhere to a higher standard just because he is a mile away from xxx.
There is a lot of ignorance, stupidity, fear, and hostile emotion for anything "nuclear." I met a guy who got upset with me
because of my interest in microwave chemistry, the "radiation" from microwaves contaminates food you see. I could not get
him to understand that radiation means energy going in all directions, that light is radiation, and you are in greater danger
from a sunburn than your microwave, but to him the word "radiation" means death. In a less civilized world I would have shot
him on general principle, I did have a strong urge to slap him. We have the media, libs, environuts, and a few dreadful
accidents terrifying everyone into thinking a 20 foot thick reinforced concrete dome a mile away is somehow in danger from an
exploding truck.
It's all a matter of perspective. That explosive could have been detonated on top of the reactor dome and it still would not
have been more than scratched. That's the reality of the situation. We are led to fear, loathe, hate, and despise anyone and
anything to do with explosives because it is a fashionable activity perpetuated by the media. Fear sells more papers and gets
more viewers. The nightly news has terrorized more soccer moms than Osama ever did.
I wonder who is the stupider of the two, the guy who detonated the bomb, or the people who think the nuclear power plant was
actually in some form of jepordy?
This just in, something in your home is murdering your children while they sleep. We'll tell you what that is, after this break.
Rbick March 24th, 2008, 11:52 AM

I know this is an old thread, but I found this video which you may find interesting. Click on the red camera icon to the upper
right of the picture.
http://www.kttc.com/News/index.php?ID=21875
I love the liberal bull shit "I guess you can get anything on the internet these days" crap they keep ranting about.
Anyway, to keeping on the subject. I made some exploding targets w/ fertilizer grade AN and 600 mesh Al powder. I made
them 20% Al since I hadn't read up on it well enough, so next time I will use 8%.
The first one we shot deflagrated when shot with a .270 from 200m. It was a bright flash and looked like a detonation, but the
damage and the sound report proved otherwise. The second target was only blown apart by a shot from the .270, but the
remaining was detonated by a shot from my AR-15 from about 20m away. The third target partially deflagrated on the first
shot with the AR-15 but detonated on the second hit, although there wasn't much left to detonate. I'll post the video when I
get a chance. I'll keep experimenting w/ lower percentage Al.
psyillirabbit April 20th, 2008, 08:49 PM

I recently decided to make a tannerite-esque exploding target. I purchased a #50 bag of prilled ammonium nitrate and 2
pounds of "indian blackhead" aluminum powder from an internet auction. After double checking the laws with the ATF, I
proceeded as follows.
I took 120.28 grams of ammonium nitrate prills and I ground them into a very fine powder in a coffee grinder that I use for
this purpose. I had a very fine "smokey" white powder which went directly into a closed plastic container.
I took 7.09 grams of the powdered aluminum and placed it in a seperate container.
I mixed both at the test site by simple agitation until I had a fairly uniform grey coated ammonium nitrate powder and by my
math that is approximately 95% / 5% by weight.
I fired several rounds of 7.62mm rifle ammunition into this container, which was filled to about 75 % capacity with loose
powder, and I had zero detonation at all. Muzzle velocity is around 2750 fps and the range was 50 yards approx.
Can anyone see something that I failed to do to achieve a positive detonation?
Psyillirabbit
Bacon46 April 21st, 2008, 09:10 AM

It sounds to me like you need an anvil for lack of a better wo rd, inside your ta rget. I use stones an d have neve r had a
target fail to explode.
The bullet needs to strike something hard inside the target in order to generate enough energy to cause the composition to
deflagrate, otherwise it just passes right through.
The links below are to posts I made earlier in this thread that have video and explain the targets in more detail.
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=92371&postcount=110
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showpost.php?p=92388&postcount=113
dbooksta April 21st, 2008, 01:01 PM
My first guess is that your AN picked up some water after you ground it. It's extremely hydrophilic and can go bad just with
exposure to ambient humidity after a few hours. Did you smell any ammonia when you opened the container at the test site?
If so you need to seal it against moisture better.
I've never done a completely loose-packed test. OTOH, I've never needed an "anvil" to get a detonation: In general I just
pack empty space in the container with wadded paper to compress the powder, and that has always worked.
psyillirabbit April 21st, 2008, 05:18 PM

Out of curiosity, does ammonium nitrate loose effectiveness over time? I know this batch to be a year old, though it was
sealed in a 6 inch Diameter PVC pipe over that time.
If it is moist, then perhaps it just needs to be dried out with a low temp oven cook per instructions in some of the various
posts to reactivate?
I've know nitrates to be very hydroscopic even from ambient humidity, but this did seem very dry. However, it was very finely
powdered....perhaps I'll add something to give it some substance....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Don't self-sign your posts - The_Duke
embeebee April 25th, 2008, 03:43 AM

It's hard to say what exactly went wrong with your target but you might want to try something with more velocity, like a .223.
psyillirabbit May 15th, 2008, 11:37 AM

If we assume it was moisture, I need to remove the moisture from the AN. I have read a few different methods for heating it
and removing it, but I am leary of cooking it in my kitchen because I really dont want a corrosive in the oven from which I eat.
Does anyone have a tried and true method or have you used the oven for cooking out the moisture? Does it rust up the oven?
Precautions? Warnings?
---
Here's a warning. Listen to The_Duke, above. JC.
festergrump June 12th, 2008, 12:42 PM

It's just moisture. Seeing that AN is so hydroscopic, it is usually pulled from the atmosphere, which pretty much means it's
cleaner than the water from your tap. No kidding.
I can't see it doing you or your oven any more harm than a meatloaf or the fish you caught last weekend...
Check your PMs, Psyillirabbit.
Rbick June 16th, 2008, 09:53 AM

Yeah actually I put 1.5kg of AN in the oven last night for drying. We have been having a lot of flooding lately, and my
dehumidifiers in my chemical bins didn't hold up!
There is no problem in doing this, as no AN should get in the oven. If it does, you must be really messy or clumsy, two things
that don't go well with energetics. The only things you really need to remember are:
1.I wouldn't use a pan that is usually used for cooking food.
2.Don't heat higher than 169* C (melting point), I usually put mine at 110*C
You can really leave it in there as long as you need to. Good stuff...
HemiDodge June 20th, 2008, 11:05 AM

This old boy that I know likes to make up some Ammonal every once in a while. This guy was asked if he could blow some
hole in some beaver dams to help the water wash them out. Here's what he used. 2" PVC pipe, 30" long. Then an adapter to
go from 2" PVC up to 3" pvc pipe. An 8" piece of 3" ID PVC pipe was placed in the adapter. Now basically you have the looks of
a potato gun. The 2" pipe was capped. From there, Ammonal was made to fill the "potato gun" to the brim and packed. The
3" pipe was capped (all joints glued). The 3" portion was spray painted fluro orange to ease in visibility. When checking out
these charges, they were approximately 3 feet in length. On an average person setting the two inch portion on the ground and
standing it up vertically, the contraption was about waste high on a normal person. Anyhow, the charges were placed vertically
in the beaver dams, leaving the orange 3" portion sticking out. Charges were set off with a .22-250 firing 45 grain Jacketed
hollow points at 4000 fps. BTW -- Most charges were in the 5 pound range.
Two charges did not get filmed due to the camera man drinking beer and not paying attention. The next to last charge was
two set off at once. The first potato gun was shoved in horizontally in the beaver dam, then one was placed beside it vertically,
so basically in a T shape, but inverted. That one left a crater approximately 7 feet across and at least 6 feet deep.
Here's the video that my buddy put on youtube.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sKtHHOg6EsE
Opinions are welcome.
On another side note, a friend called up and said that he was asked to dispose of a lot of tubes of Carbon that used to be
used in demolition on building roads. I have looked around on here and I don't see where there is anything "fun" that a
person can do with carbon. Any suggestions? I can get ahold of it, but I don't want it if there's nothing to do. I've googled it as
well, and nothing really sticks out.
Rbick June 23rd, 2008, 01:38 PM

Nice video. What were the percentages for those charges?
On a random note, I was thinking about getting a .22-250. The velocity is just incredible. A nice flat shooting round for kill
those pesky varmint. The barrels get shot out pretty quick though don't they?
HemiDodge June 24th, 2008, 09:52 AM

I mix my Ammonal at about 93% Ammonium Nitrate, 7% AL powder.
I love my .22-250. I have a Browning A-Bolt with a 4 x 12 x 32mm Leuopold scope on it.
I have shot the Winchester Varmint rounds for the last 5 years through the gun. They are 45 grain jacketed hollow points,
push 4000 fps. I sight it in 1" high at 100 yds. At 200 yds, the gun is dead on. At 300 yds, the gun is about 1" low. At 400
yds, the gun is around 3.5" low. So basically, you just aim center mass on anything alive and it's gone.
I have shot hundreds of rounds through my rifle and never had a problem. I sighted it in again this last fall and grouped on a
penny at 100 yds. I have the penny with the hole in it to prove it. No recoil, not too loud, and bullets are easy to find. A .220
swift is faster, but the barrel gets hotter and the bullets are a little tougher to find.
The browning A-Bolt is the most accurate, economical rifle I have ever shot. My setup was around 1,100 for scope, mounts,
bore sighting and sling, but worth every penny.
Charles Owlen Picket June 27th, 2008, 11:56 AM

On another side note, a friend called up and said that he was asked to dispose of a lot of tubes of Carbon that used to be
used in demolition on building roads. I have looked around on here and I don't see where there is anything "fun" that a
person can do with carbon. Any suggestions? I can get ahold of it, but I don't want it if there's nothing to do. I've googled it as
well, and nothing really sticks out.
The only thing I am aware of is the use of something similar in setting up a seismograph (carbon is conductive) - blast wave
wave modulation is something industry does prior to and during any work within public thoroughfares and within building
zones, highway weight bearing surfaces, etc.
Smoakie June 28th, 2008, 12:32 AM

I am fairly sure you can use them in a chlorate cell. Don't remember if it is for the cathode or anode and I think it deteriorates
fairly quickly but if you have a good supply that shouldn't matter.
Just a suggestion to look into.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Sugar Black Powder
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View Full Version : Sugar Black Powder

I have a friend who swears by this stuff. It involves replacing the charcoal in the usual black powder mixture with sucrose. He
claims it's just as good as regular black powder but insists that he forgets the proper proportions.
I think it's time I quit listening to my friends.
Regardless, I've been poking around on the web for information on this and turning up nothing. (Well, not nothing. I did find
<a href="http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Recipe/Chicken_Bean_Enchiladas.htm" target="_blank">this recipie</a>, but it
doesn't help me much...)
So. Has anyone any information on this? Once I put my ball mill back together I'll make up a batch with the usual black
powder proporotions and see how badly it sucks. In the meantime, does anyone have the proper proportions for this mixture?
~Zero the Inestimable
Arkangel April 16th, 2002, 08:31 PM

I don't have a recipe for the sucrose "black", but it can't be worse than the barbecue charcoal I have been trying to use for
convenience, so I'm going to do some testing. If that doesn't work I'll be using chicken and cumin powder as per your other
recipe. :p
Kettch42mk.2 April 16th, 2002, 09:12 PM

In the dark days before I had a scale, I used quite a bit of this stuff, as it was a lot easier to get the correct ratio by volume
than with proper black powder. Though I'm sure it varied from batch to batch, the proportion of ingredients was probably
something like 40% Sugar, 10% Sulfur, and 50% KNO3. In my experience, it burns too slowly to explode with much reliability
unless you use a lot (200+ grams) in very strong confinement. It makes a decent fuel for core-burning rockets (press it
soaked with acetone).
The most useful application I've found for it is in improvised fuses. Take a piece of fine steel wool (xx or finer) and burn it.
Roll it in the powder several times, twisting it tight as you roll. Then dip it in NC lacquer, and let it dry. It takes a little practice
to get the amount and shape of the steel wool right, but if you're out of visco, it makes a fair substitute.

I was thinking about using this for cratermaker loads for mass-market sale. My black powder is too precious and matchheads
are a pain.
Your mixture sounds to me like it was a little oxidizer deficient (based on my findings by meddling with melted KNO3/sucrose
smokebombs), but before I experiment I can't pass judgement.
Just wondering if anyone knew.
I fired up the ball mill today and actually got it to turn. We're moving along, slowly but steadily...

My mixture might very well have been oxidizer deficient. Lacking a scale, I was reduced to testing small batches and looking
at the residue, and then adding more sugar or KNO3, trying to get the best ratio. Not exactly the most effective way to produce
a decent powder.

Ah. Indeed.
I tried the ball mill today. Motor blew.
Back to the drawing board...

Zero, surley you cant be serious about selling of cratemakers to the pulic at large? Theyll kill them selves, or worse, the
inocent bystanders ogling at the show.
NoltaiR April 18th, 2002, 12:33 AM

And if you ever got busted for selling an explosive (whether powered by an HE or LE), you might as well have been caught
dealing the columbian snow because your ass just earned an all expenses paid vacation to your local prison so that Bruno can
now have a new bitch.
vonK April 18th, 2002, 05:48 AM

I think this sugar based powder being as good as real black powder is
k3\/\/l legend.
I had a k3\/\l once try to convince me of this stuff but the guy was a fag and also believed you could substitute cornflakes for
the charcoal.
It works fairly well as a core-burning rocket propellant though.
I had plans of making and selling 100 black powder skyrockets to guys at school last Guy Fawkes but it took so long doing
everthing from scratch (rolling my own tubes etc) that I only sold about 20.
It wasn't worth all the effort just to sell them, I'd rather keep them for my self.

I didn't think it would be a perfect substitute for black powder, but if it can burst a CO2 cartridge and make a little bang it's
good enough for me. The trouble for me is obtaining large amounts of suitable charcoal for this sort of thing. I unfortunately
haven't much leeway for torching big pots of willow in by backyard...

Can't you get lump charcoal (not bricquets)? They're usually hardwood, but they still work reasonably well.

Im pretty sure dealing bombs(as they are clasified by the authorities) is a major fellony. I strongly advise against you selling
the things, ecept maybee to your competent friends.

You can go your way, I can go mine...

Fair enough, but there are more profitable misdemeners out there that are less difficult.
Btw, if you do sell these things, at least give them 6 inches of fuse and saftey instructions.

Just search for a topic called 'improvised black powder' or something similar... I posted quite a bit about why and why not to
use hardwood charcoal 'briquettes' (the ones that don't contain clay) in the manufacture of BP.
Anyways, if your friends are not intelligent enough to make their own explosives, then there is a good chance that they would
not be intelligent enough to deploy them properly.

Exactly my thinking.

Indeed.
Try as I might, I can't seem to find lump charcoal anywhere around here. Kingman Charcoal Briquettes, With New EZ Light
Formula, yes. Straight lump charcoal, no. Most irritating. I have, however, recently found a willow tree... I'll have to take the
wagon and the tree saw down there and see if anyone notices that thing missing a few branches.
I'm still interested in sugar powder experiments now, though, but it may be a while until I find a new mill motor due to lack of
funding. I could make money, you see, but I've nothing to sell with nothing to make it with.
Danged hole in my bucket, there is.
vulture April 19th, 2002, 12:04 PM

A very good source for charcoal are active carbon filters. That can either be air filters or water filters. I just grind the pellets in
my coffeegrinder. Then it's airfloat and burns like hell.
James April 19th, 2002, 11:48 PM

4RNO3 + C6H12O6 -> 6CO2 +6H2O +
2N2 + 4R
8RNO3 + C12H11O11 -> 12CO2 +11H2O +
4N2 + 8R
C6H12O6 = 120.1048 g/mol
NaNO3 = 84.9947 g/mol
KNO3 = 101.1032 g/mol
Mixtures (oxygen balanced)

23% glucose to 77% NaNO3 roughly 2:7 by mass
26% glucose to 74% KNO3 roughly 1:3 by mass
33% sugar to 67% NaNO3 roughly 1:2 by mass
29% sugar to 71% KNO3 roughly 3:7 by mass
roughly, you might want to add more sugar to the first two mixtures, and nitrates to the secon two. I am pulling these figures
from theory. Values are also only applicable to material derived from the Earth.
retroactive patches, I messed up big.
[ April 22, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: James ]
Pu239 Stuchtiger April 20th, 2002, 12:34 AM

If you have a shortage of wood, you could just roast sucrose. The result will be a mass of carbon. Make sure the sugar doesn't
ignite when it is being heated, though.
Kettch42mk.2 April 20th, 2002, 02:14 AM

Does pure carbon really work that well for black powder? I seem to recall reading that one of the rasons softwood charcoal
works better is that is usually has more impurities than hardwood.
DBSP April 20th, 2002, 08:37 AM

No he had other names too.
vulture April 20th, 2002, 08:50 AM

Dehydrating paper, sucrose or any other carbon containing solid with H2SO4 also produces carbon.

In response to Project IGI, this name comes from my original, Kettch42, which was banned a couple of weeks ago because I
accidentally hit "post topic" instead of "post reply" on my first post (Check banned for life). The mk2 denotes that this is the
second iteration of the Kettch42 persona. Any resemblance to other name suffixes is purely coincidental.
xoo1246 April 20th, 2002, 02:09 PM

James: C6H12O6 isn't table sugar, it's actually glucose.
C12H22O11 is table sugar.
James April 22nd, 2002, 08:32 PM

Ack, Actually now I think table sugar is C11H20O10. Which means the second sugar
listed above would be what, maltose? I think sucrose (table sugar) is essential a glucose-frutose disacharide. I recall fructose
is C5H10O5.
11RNO3 + 3C11H20O10 -> 33CO2 + 10H2O

+ 11N2 + 11R

Try a 50/50 mixture of the sucrose & sodium nitrate, and a 5/4 mixture of sucrose/potassium nitrate.
Edit: formatting correction, Formula correction
Pu239 Stuchtiger April 22nd, 2002, 09:13 PM

Sucrose is C12H22O11.
vonK April 22nd, 2002, 11:41 PM

In my experience, NaNO3 sucks.
I have made sugar based rockets like the ones on Nakka's site with both NaNO3 and KNO3. NaNO3/sucrose produced a smoke
bomb while KNO3/sucrose in the same motor flew maybe 10m before blasting out its end plug and nozzle.
The difference in burn rate between the two propellants was huge.
HOOPS123 April 22nd, 2002, 11:56 PM

VonK, do you melt your rocket fuel like Nakka?
vonK April 23rd, 2002, 06:11 AM

Yeah, I melt it. It seems to make the propellant burn so much better, not to mention there is no need to pound heaps of
propellant .
Melting is so much easier and better, especially if you use dextrose or sorbitol.
I buy my dextrose at the supermarket as brewing sugar.
Dextrose melts so much easier than sucrose, it doesn't caramelize nearly as quickly and stays molten for ages so you don't
have to rush to cast it.
I've made a couple of succesful D class PVC engines with this stuff, the only problem I have is making a good rocket. So far
I've had them spin circles, fly horizontally and weave through the air but none have gone straight up.
[ April 23, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: vonK ]
kvitekrist April 23rd, 2002, 07:46 AM

hello.
since i use sodiumclorate i cant melt it together with the sugar.. but i use a press and press the endplugg on, so it's very hard
then i use a drill bit to make the hole.
I have found a source for obtainig KNO3.. the fertilizer type, it's very cheap, only 70$ for 100kg
so i can start making real rockets soon... heh
I also have used sodiumclorate\sugar mix in my cannons.. allmost as good as BP..
[ April 23, 2002, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: kvitekrist ]
Zero April 23rd, 2002, 12:05 PM

<img src="http://www.millenianet.com/~firestarter/Z/FERT.JPG" alt="" />
You mean something like this? Yeah, I have three of these now. That's why I'm looking for things to waste KNO3 on.
vulture April 23rd, 2002, 03:06 PM

Helvetica"> I also have used sodiumclorate\sugar mix in my cannons.. allmost as good as BP.. <hr /></
blockquote>Huh? chlorate/sugar normally burns WAY faster than blakpowder.
A 30cm line of BP takes atleast 5s while KClO3/sugar does this in a split second. My experience though...
Polverone April 23rd, 2002, 03:34 PM

If you're trying to determine the goodness of sugar black powder vs. the real thing it's pretty easy to determine that sugar
isn't as good, even without tests. Sucrose is about 44% carbon by mass, whereas charcoal is nearly 100%. When sugar is
heated it carmelizes - which is endothermic. It gives off steam and reduces to a cruncy mass of carbon, which I would guess is
where the bulk of its fuel value is coming from. So, sugar has 44% carbon vs. 100%, and it has to have its bonds broken and
water vaporized (both endothermic). It doesn't sound like a winner for quick-burning, energetic fuels. Of course, the real
question is "will it reliably burst a CO2 cartridge?" because that's all you need it to do. That can only be answered by tests.
I remember some "science fun" trick from an old book or magazine. It had you try to light a sugar cube on fire with a match
(very hard to do), and then rub some cigarette ash on another cube and try lighting it. The cigarette ash would supposedly act
as a catalyst so that the second cube could be ignited. I believe that tobacco ashes contain compounds of lithium, potassium,
and rubidium, among others, but I do not have a comprehensive analysis available. I wonder if a small amount of similar
compounds could improve sugar based fuels. Of course, if you can't even get charcoal, it's unlikely you'll be ordering lithium
compounds.

why not make charcoal?
i'm sure i've said this many times before....
fill a paint can with wood chippings. put the lid on and put a 5mm hole in the lid. put this on a fire and leave it, it should be
left until the smoke levels coming from the hole are reduced significantly, the smoke may catch fire in which case you leave it
until the flame shrinks VERY small or goes out - after this remove from the fire and allow to cool but DO NOT open it. the rush
of O2 will ignite the charcoal.
few hours later open it up and you have a shit load of high quality charcoal. the wood to use is softwood (pine trees, ash,
willow, etc). this contains alot of saps/resins whatever tree juice is called which add to the flamibility of the charcoal.
the isntructions aren't great but you get the idea. basically heat the wood without any oxygen source (air).
kvitekrist April 23rd, 2002, 06:36 PM

my experiece with real blackpowder vs. clorate/sugar is that good blackpowder burns in a flash and the clorate/sugar mixture
burns way slower (tried difrent ratioes) and leave that residue... but i have blown thick walled cannons to pieces with the
clorate/sugar mix.
I have a great source for charcoal, some shops sell these bags of charcoal for purifying your homemade liquor.. but test with
charcoal and sodiumnitrate have been a disappointment.

Not likely, since making your own liquor in any form is illegal here...
I've got some willow charcoal now. I got extremely bored yesterday so I took my bike down to that willow tree, chained a
branch to the back, and towed it home. Soon enough: Charcoal. I still need to fix my mill.
I'm still interested in trying the sugar powder, though. Once I get things fixed you can expect to see some results on it.
Eventually.

??You're BP is faster than CHLORATE/sugar?? :confused: My potassiumchlorate (pure)/sugar mix burns as fast as flash and
i'm not kidding.
I do however add a little charcoal, approx. 5%, to improve mixing.
Are you sure you are using pure and dry chlorate?
Polverone, you forget that sugar also contains hydrogen atoms and water has a rather high enthalpy/weight.
kvitekrist April 24th, 2002, 11:59 AM

yes it's pure and dry. but it is sodiumclorate... there is a difference.. and it ignites easyer than potassiumclorate.
To bad i dont own a scale, then i could mesure it properly

Hmm. Just read the <a href="http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/s7394.htm">MSDS</a> for sucrose. OK, I was <a href="http://
www.bartleby.com/65/su/sucrose.html">wrong</a> about sugar, I do remember seeing an 11 carbon surgar.
Polverone brought up an intersting idea. Use cigarette ashes instead of ordering from chem supliers. I mean it's not like
cigarette ashes are impossible to get. I suppose you could go through and empty ashtrays or something.

Cigarrete ash is completely combusted though, whereas the idea of making pyro charcoal is to exclude air(oxygen) to prevent
it from combusting.

I'll try to explain clearly this time. Polverone read a science fun article which seemed to indicate that some compounds in
cigarette ash may be catalysts. It was then pointed out that peopl w/o access to charcoal are unlikely to purchase catalysts. My
point was that you wouldn't need to go to the chemical suppliers, as cigarette ashes are relatively easy to get. NASA uses
catalysts* why shouldn't we.
* "the space shuttle operator's manual" page 7.29
Zzzzeta May 10th, 2002, 06:15 AM

Chiming in late -
A variation on the 5-cent rocket propellant is to use an additional 15% potassium permanganate. Not only does this result in a
more energetic propellant, you get a purple tail on your rockets as well.
The proportions I use are -
63gms potassium nitrate

27gms confectioners' sugar
10gms dusting sulphur
15gms potassium permanganate.
[ May 10, 2002, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Zzzzeta ]
DarkAngel May 10th, 2002, 09:12 AM

78gr of oxidiser in a 105gr mix sounds like a bit much.
And an extra 15% isn't right your writing it down in grams cause when you add up all the chemicals you end up with 105 which
should be 100.
And i doubt that you get a purple tail.
BTW a nice site about KNO3/Suger and some other things: <a href="http://www.jamesyawn.com/index.htm"
target="_blank">http://www.jamesyawn.com/index.htm</a>
[ May 10, 2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]
vulture May 10th, 2002, 12:37 PM

Sorry, but that purple tale is BS. The permanganate will decompose into potassiumoxide and manganese dioxide, which are
both colorless.
Anybody ever tried permanganate/sugar? That should be very powerful.

IIRC, it's very friction sensitive.
Zambosan May 10th, 2002, 01:28 PM

It wouldn't be a purple smoke tail, but the permanganate would give you a light violet flame. However, I think the orange
from the potassium would hide it for the most part.

Sorry, but potassium makes an orange flame, sodium a yellow one.
However, the potassium flame is to weak to notice as soon as carbon is present. And the color of a compound is in no way
indicative for the flame color!!!!
Zzzzeta May 10th, 2002, 09:00 PM

Whoops - I made a typo! It's actually 27% sugar, not 17%. The propellant definitely does emit purple sparks, though.
Zzzz
Polverone May 10th, 2002, 09:07 PM

Eh? Potassium? Orange flames? When I see sugar burning with potassium chlorate it looks purple/pink to me. Potassium
nitrate doesn't give as intense of a color; it's more boring pink to me. But certainly not orange. It does depend on what you're
using as a fuel and what impurities are present in your chemicals, of course.

Taking the advice about the potassium permanganate making the propellant too oxidiser-rich, I tried reducing the KNO3
content to 48g, giving the same oxidiser fraction as the original recipe. The propellant appears equally as energetic as before
(judging the rocket's performance purely by eye, naturally), but not as effective as ball milled black powder.
Zzzz
vulture May 11th, 2002, 07:05 AM

Sorry bout that, it should indeed be purple for potassium.
I still think that purple of yours is very strange, because permanganate would decompose at that temperature and it can't be
the flame color either.

I'm not sure what causes the purple sparks either - possibly impurities in the KNO3. It's not a tremendous rich purple flame,
more the light violet which was mentioned in a previous post, mixed in with the regular yellow sparks you normally see with a
KNO3/sugar propellant. I'll set off a large tube of the mixture on the ground tomorrow night, and try to get a picture with my
digicam.
Zzzz
Pu239 Stuchtiger May 11th, 2002, 09:49 AM

Perhaps MnO and Mn3O4 formed from the decomposition of the [MnO4]- ion is affecting the color of the flame?
A_W May 11th, 2002, 11:19 AM

Helvetica"> I have a great source for charcoal, some shops sell these bags of charcoal for purifying your homemade liquor. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, I have been thinking of theese, as they sell
them at supermarkets (in Norway), but this is not wood charcoal, it is activated coal, made from blood, bones or coconutshell.
It is very porous and absorbent, but I don`t know if it works in blackpowder.

Helvetica"> A very good source for charcoal are active carbon filters. That can either be air filters or water filters. I just grind
the pellets in my coffeegrinder. Then it's airfloat and burns like hell. <hr /></blockquote>If you had read well.....active carbon :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
[ May 11, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]
kvitekrist May 11th, 2002, 12:19 PM

the BP made from the purifying coal is the best I have made, it even burns qucker than the BP taken from fireworks.

I tested a 25mm x 150mm tube filled with 100g of the permanganate-enhanced propellant last night, placed on the ground
as a fountain effect. Burn time was 8 seconds, nozzle size was 6mm x about 10mm long. The jet was extremely energetic,
reaching about 3m at its peak. Flame colour was a pale purple-violet, but unfortunately the digicam has packed up and I
didn't get a shot.
I haven't been game to ballmill this compound, not being sure about the effects of friction on KMnO4-derived powders, so all
mixing has been done gently by hand with a wooden mortar and pestle. Although it's an effective rocket propellant, I'm not
planning on experimenting much further because of the high cost of KMnO4 over KNO3.
Zzzz
[ May 14, 2002, 04:57 AM: Message edited by: Zzzzeta ]
FragmentedSanity May 14th, 2002, 06:37 AM

BallMilling permagenate with sugar and sulfer would be a not so good idea.
permagenate and sugar are supposed to be friction sensitive (mind you ive never got it to work, but I didnt try THAT hard :p )
I use a permagenate mix for mini fountains - with S and Al flake and its is definatley a purple flame - with white sparks from
the flake. Ive used sugar in these too - but it only slowed them down and produced more slag.
FS

Yeah, I've heard there can be problems with friction sensitivity, but wasn't sure if that was just a Kewl myth. I've done very
little chemistry apart from soil-related stuff in college a few years back - just your basic N/P/K ratios for fertilisers and so forth,
and a bit of study on chelates, colloids and other goodies - so I tend to stay on the side of caution when it comes to
pyrotechnics.
Zzzz
Zero May 23rd, 2002, 06:54 PM

It's baaaaack...
Since I finally finished some semblance of a working ball mill I was able to mix up a batch of sugar black powder today.
Results with the classic 75/15/10 mixture were thoroughly unimpressive, taking well over ten seconds to burn a half dollar
sized pile and pearling like crazy. Massive amounts of molten KNO3 were left over.
Tomorrow: Less KNO3, more testing.
endotherm May 23rd, 2002, 10:39 PM

Anyone ever try potassium perchlorate/sugar?
Or does any know if it will work, and what are some good proportions for it?
chem June 15th, 2002, 06:22 PM

I did once I just mixed them half, half it burned very much like KCL03 and sugar. I used all my KCL04 on it at the time and
now I cant get any more, without paying extortionate amounts of money. Which has left me permantetaly deppresed and
pissed off. But seriously this mix works well and could probably be used in a firecracker, bearing in mind I used to make
crackers out of NaCL03 weedkiller and sugar. I spect it would be an excelent rocket propelent. I'm extreemly tired now and
probably not making much sense, I'll go sleep now.
Zzzzeta June 16th, 2002, 07:24 AM

Best proportions I've found for sugar blackpowder are 63:27:10 - you get a much increased burn rate with minimal pearling.
You might also try replacing some of the KnO3 with KMnO4, as I was discussing here a few weeks ago.
Zzzz
xoo1246 June 16th, 2002, 07:40 AM

Autoignition....
Zzzzeta June 18th, 2002, 07:02 AM

<<"Autoignition">>
Yeah, we were discussing this too, and I've read up on KMn04 since then. The compound is stable at rest, but tends to be
somewhat friction sensitive. It's fine as long as you gently handmix small quantities, using wooden implements.
IAN.
mr.evil June 18th, 2002, 08:15 AM

maybe a little of topic, but i find that Sulferless BP burns very fast! (my KNO3 is very very fine, when you touch it, you can see
your fingerprints in it :D Also the C is very fine(ball milled) it burned in a flash, i was suprised <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> as most of the times KNO3 based mixtures are shitty as they burn slow.....
Sorry for going off topic.
vulture June 18th, 2002, 03:45 PM

70/30 KClO3/sugar works excellent in crackers -> produces a lot of gas H2O + CO2. In my experience better than
blackpowder, but hey, if you get different results...
kanbayat June 30th, 2002, 08:38 PM

SUGAR CLORATE BLASTING POWDER IS AN OLD RECIPE USED IN 19th century quite a bit in europe..I forget the recipe now..but
used to use it in pipe years ago

ah yes..found the formula for augendre's white powder. t was used to blast very hard rock. I don't know if I would want to
mess with it..but here goes.equal parts of kcio3,sugar,al by weight. the very early types of white powder substuted p.
ferrocyanide for the al...this was mostened with alchol and ground until very intimate then alowed to dry
I have used the formula with both ferrocyanide and al..the al mix is more [powerful,but also more sensitive
.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Mercury Fulminate..
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inferno April 24th, 2002, 12:35 PM

I have been working a lot with the MF in toy cap-gun caps (not blasting caps) to make simple firecrackers and the like,
however, as ive read it is used in some detonators, but in my experience it wouldnt have the power to blow a metal casing? To
make the firecrackers, i just get a pen lid or the end cap thing of a pen, make it about 2cm long, melt the open end so it just
fits in a sparkler, empty out one ring of caps (8 caps) into the bottom, put some shaved matchheads on top, then stick in and
tape in a sparkler (cut down so its about an inch long, about half an inch stick out).
They go bang and send out a lot of sparks. But my point is, that the mf only sometimes breaks the plastic. Sure theres not
that much in it, but i still dont see how it could break a metal casing. Maybe the power increases dramatically with the more
you use, i havent tried 5 rings in one or anything, because it takes long enough to empty out one. Thanks for any info on its
power, i want to make my own caps because i cant buy them and just wanted to clear this up.
PS Are there any adverse health effects from handling MF, and secondly does anyone know whats in the party popper
"charges"? I thought it was MF but its red and a hell of a lot more sensitive.
Sorry im asking so many questions, bear with me, but what are the approximate powers of detonators, eg a #1 cap to a #8
cap? Are the lowest grade about equivalent to a large commercial firecracker, or much more powerful?
Thanks
[ April 24, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: inferno ]

Toy caps contain Armstrong's mix, it's a mixture of red phosphorus and potassium chlorate or perchlorate, it is a low
explosive. Ditto for party poppers IIRC.
I recall someone posting a table showing the contents of various #'s of blasting cap, try the archives, see if it's in there.
Comercial firecrackers are filled with low explosives, like flashpowder. They cannot really be compared to a blasting cap of high
explosive.
You don't seem like a bad guy, but you've made quite a few elementary mistakes. Read around some of the current and past
threads here, you'll soon have the information you needed to answer your own questions and more.
I'll leave the thread open in case anyone has some useful information or experience comparing commercial and improvised
blasting caps.
andreas April 24th, 2002, 03:40 PM

Would an mix of AN and H2SO4 work as well for fulminates.
If nobody tried it before I'll try and post the results as soon as I get some ethenol.
Pu239 Stuchtiger April 24th, 2002, 04:50 PM

Has anyone ever attempted to prepare lead fulminate or copper fulminate?
inferno April 25th, 2002, 05:42 AM

I thought that KCl03/KCl04 wouldnt "explode" like a LE, unless mixed with a fuel? Ill test tonight with a small amoutn of
sugar+the powder in caps, if it makes smoke it would probably be KCl03/4. Thanks
Bitter April 25th, 2002, 11:27 AM

"I thought that KCl03/KCl04 wouldnt "explode" like a LE, unless mixed with a fuel ?"
What do you think the red phosphorus Anthony mentioned is for ? That's the 'fuel' in Armstrong's mixture.

Armstrong's also contains antimony trisulfide, which serves as a reducer as well.

The toy-caps I have contain (taken directly from the pack), no more than 0.2 grains of a pyrotechnic mixture consisting of
potassium chlorate, red phosphorus, antimony trisulfide, manganese dioxide, sand and glue.
There are some things called "Wolf Packs" here in NZ which are small pea sized bundles of gravel and mercury fluminate
wrapped in paper. The pack says they contain less than 0.12 grains of mercury fluminate.
These go bang with a sharp crack when you drop them on the ground and the bundle is blown apart.
On Mother's Day I get more supplies, I think I will try a few fluminates.
Do you think it would be sensible to follow Megas recipe for MF but substitute the Hg for an equimolar amount of Pb, Cu or
even Zn.
da man April 26th, 2002, 09:06 PM

Vonk, only mercury and silver fulminate can be made by the reaction of nitric acid on the metal followed by reaction with
ethanol. Other fulminates such as copper, etc, are made from the silver or mercury fulminate. So it won't work substituting
other metals for the mercury.
inferno April 27th, 2002, 01:45 AM

Hey, thanks for the info zambosan and vonk. What i meant when i said without a fuel, was that the powder (that you said was
KCl03) ignited without the red P. I understand now from the info zambosan and vonk said.
(and i think it would blow a metal cap now, ive found that 8 caps will not so much as leave a mark on the plastic, double that
and it blows it apart. I did this just before in an empty plastic KNO3 container (500g) and when it went off, the propelled plastic
(i assume) broke a hole through the plastic.
Please dont think im a k3wl because i use these ingredients, but especially in Australia, it is very hard to obtain nitric acid,
acetone etc. And my age doesnt help that either. The only legal firework or pyrotechnic device you can buy without a licence in
all but one state of Australia is sparklers. Obviously you can buy BP etc, but i find it more fun to make my own things, and
learn what is in them etc, than to buy some BP and put it in a tube. And mentioning nitric acid, i saw on the news last night
that a truck crashed and spilled its cargo of nitric about 20 mins from me...wish i was there.
I know one place you can buy 70% nitric, 98% sulphuric, even high conc phosphoric, also KNO3, NH4NO3 bulk, etc, but its
pretty expensive, about AU$125 for 5 litres of nitric (american, about 62.50 for 1 gallon)
This topic might as well be deleted

You might think it, but generally, you're no worse off for chemical sources than most other countries. Each country does have
things that are easier to get or rarer than other countries, but I think it balances out somewhat.
You don't need to buy HNO3, you can substitute it for H2SO4/metal nitrate for many synthesises. Acetone you seem to can't
help tripping over in America, but elsewhere you need to look a bit. Buying chemicals from lab companies isn't the answer to
look for, they're usually more expensive, due to their much higher than required purity and IMO it takes some of the fun out
of things. Knowing that you can make something out of everyday products is much better.
S. Toppholzer April 27th, 2002, 01:17 PM

Odd....
Just about a year ago I learned here at The Forum that Armstrong's mixture may be detonated as well....

Yes, it can be under the right circumstances. It'd probably be similar to Ammonium Nitrate/Red Phosphorus, which is
apparently sensitive to a #6 commercial blasting cap. Not much good for making a blasting cap with if it needs one itself to be
initiated.

Speaking of Armstrongs mix, isn't that how the infamous Kurt Saxon lost his hand?

Dumb question: WTF is Kurt Saxon?
J April 29th, 2002, 04:12 PM

Author of the 'Poor Mans James Bond' series of books.

he apparently lost 3 or 4 fingers on his left hand due to armstrongs mix. i have a 10 minute vid of him i got from here a long
long time ago, really bad quality but you can see his mangled hand.
Boob Raider March 25th, 2003, 01:57 AM

Can anyone tell me why only 95% + ethanol works for preparing fulminates. Is it possible to use monoethanolamine,
theoretically. It can be isolated from certain degreasers/oven cleaners etc.
aster March 25th, 2003, 09:21 AM

find 95% ethanol is easy, go to the nearest drugstore, i think they always provide this chemical, it's cheap enough i think, why
we must use 95% or more? i think because it will be better to quickly reacting the metal nitrate (mercury nitrate) with this
ethanol, because mercury nitrate is unstable and decompose under influence of light, if we postpone to reacting them soon
they will be failed to formed mercury fulminate. so maybe this is the reason why we using a more than 95% ethanol, anyone
has their own explanation?

What's the consistence of the toxic gases that are produced when making mercure fulminate? CO? formaldehyde?

I don't think there is any HCOH as it definately doesn't smell like it. There are a lot of dense white fumes. Most of them are
due to ethanol and H2O formed (similar to glycol+H2O fogging machines). The fumes evolved burn with a colorless flame and
when I lit them .... they lit up like alcohol fumes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . Also there are no
oxidizing gases present as the ignition of the fumes was not/barely audible. I have also noticed that when the reaction is
almost over ... (after the fogging subsides) .... Hg(ONC)2 crystals form near the surface of the solution and then sink down.
Hope someone can make use of my observations in deducing, What the fuck actually goes on in there ?
Oh yeah ... the liquor store sells 96% ethanol for use in pharmacies. 2 problems ..... 1). They only sell it in 4L cans for $200
and 2). I need a licence. :mad:
Marvin March 25th, 2003, 01:27 PM

Davis lists the condensable gasses produced during the fulminate reaction as mainly alcohol, acetaldehyde, ethyl nitrate and
ethyl nitrite. Noncondesable gasses are probably NOx, though I didnt see much evidence for its production during the white
fuming stage, and carbon dioxide.
(In answer to much older points), you cant make nitric in situ becuase mercury sulphate is less soluable than the fulminate is.
Formation of solid mercury (of silver) fulminate is what prevents it being destroyed as its formed, and why attempts to make
other fulminates fails with this method. I didnt redistill my nitric, as a result my fulminate had a little sulphate in it, and was
less sensitive to being hit than it should have been.
Soluable mercury salts are nasty very toxix things, dont put them down the drain if possible, treat the waste liquid with sodium
carbonate to get it all out of solution, if nothing else this means the basic mercury carbonate can be reused. Silver salts are
also a tad toxic, but the metal isnt, and Id probably have chosen to try this instead even bearing in mind its greater
sensitivity.
In terms of the 95% requirement for ethanol, water isnt the main problem, though too much and the reaction wont start, but
methanol is supposed to a bigger problem. Chemically dehydrating vodka would probably do at a pinch, everclear type alcohol
isnt sold in a lot of countries mainly for tax reasons.
Some of the statements about low and high order in this thread seem a little 'foggy' if you dont mind me saying so. I dont
know if there is a single 'official' version of the difference but I'll state the one Ive been using for some time, and that is
usually used for transportation issues. Low order decomposition wave travels at or below the speed of sound in air taken as
3300fps, High order is substantially above. This sounds a bit arbitrary, but it makes sense with the physics. Speed of sound is
the maximum rate gas can move from one place to another through air. If the gasses are produced at a rate much greater
than the rate they can dissuptate (speed of sound in air), they build up to massive pressures and the result is an audible
bang. High order explosives usually support a shock wave, but thats not always the case with high order explosives by this
definition. Low order explosives usually require hot air/particals to communicate to other grains and thus the rate that grains
are communicated is around the speed of sound in air, this is independent of the surface burn rate, but you all know this.
Many mixtures and compounds support several discrete decomposition rates (aside from such variables as density, degree of
confinement etc), some of which cover both high and low order rates, some of which classic low order mixtures will go high
order given a strong enough shock wave, but arnt capable of amplifying it, and are thus arnt generally thought of as high
order mixtures.
Ok, thats as clear as mud, but as a rule of thumb, if its the breaking of the container releasing high pressure gas thats
causing the bang, then it has to be low order. If theres minimal confinement, and you get a bang anyway (usually much
sharper sounding) it has to be high order.
RP/ClO3 mixtures detonate, theres no doubt, if this stuff is giving a bang, its detonating. Flash mixtures are often low order in
small amounts, but as the size of the metal powder decreases, and the violence of the oxidiser increases nitrates,
perchlorates, chlorates the minimum unconfined diameter for detonation decreases. Confined mixtures are more likely to
detonate than unconfined ones and large theatrical flash pots have been used for a long time to detonate secondary
epxlosives by the IRA for example. I doubt theres any good info on doing so outside fringe literature though.
If RP/ClO3 was a low explosive or a propellent then calling RP a fuel would make sense, it is burning in the resulting oxygen
but my thoughts are this happens after the det wave has already moved through the mixture, being ground powders. In my
experience of RP/ClO3 mixtures, using very finely ground RP is effective in rendering sodium chlorate easily detonatable in
such tiny amounts that the extra energy by its burning is negligible. Id be inclined to call red phosphorous a sensitiser
regardless of ratio. Id also like to add that attempting to make a secondary by sensitising large amounts of a chlorate in this
way is too unsafe to be useful.
[ March 25, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Marvin ]
shooter3 March 25th, 2003, 06:13 PM

Finding useable ethanol is easy. Here's 2 places. Drug store under rubbing alcohol, there are 2 kinds, ethanol which you want
and isopropol which you don't want(at least for fulminate).
In hardware stores it is called "Denatured Alcohol". It is used to thin shellac. Make sure you don't get solvent
alcohol(methanol) ,unless you want to make methyl nitrate.
If part of the fumes are acetylaldehyde does anyone know what percent and are they recoverable?

Can anyone try making some fulminate with glacial CH3COOH, (NH2C2H4OH)monoethanolamine, diethylether,
Triethanolamine or other similar commonly available chems. Or if anyone knows the reason why C2H5OH can't be substituted
or which C actually gets bound in the fulminate (the CH3 one or the CH2OH one)... that would also be really very helpful.
Oh and BTW ... "denatured alcohol" Normally has CH3OH in it which is not desired in fulminate synthesis. Drug stores now only
have Isopropanol. C2H5OH cannot be bought without a license in Canada.
[ March 26, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]
vurr March 26th, 2003, 04:36 AM

ethanol can be distilled from vodka or whisky or wine (recomm.from liquid phase,remaining from deep frozing.. :) nb!plastic
bottle!!) with common kitchen boiling devices.need only a plastic/copper tube to the output,and some cooling of that.
remained water can be removed with strongly heated copper sulphate(white powder)or silicagel (haven't tried microwaves for
CuSO4*5H2O(garden chemical),which works greatly for used silicagel dessicant granules ,5 minutes,1kW,decreasing ~ 20% of
weight)
frogfot March 27th, 2003, 10:58 AM

How sencitive is MF? I'm asking this because people on rec.pyrotechnics says that it can detonate from falling drops of water..
and this made me worry. Sounds that it's more sencitive than AP, or?
EDIT: Ouh! sorry, you're right zaibatsu, i was thinking about silver fulminate.. :o
[ March 27, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: frogfot ]

I'm sorry if this is wrong, but you may be thinking about silver fulminate. It's used to coat gravel that 'snaps' when it is
contained in a paper twist and thrown on the ground.
Boob Raider March 27th, 2003, 01:37 PM

Does Ag2C2 have the same sensitivity as AgONC. If it does .... AgONC definately wouldn't blow up from H2O drops as Ag2C2
doesn't. I would rate its (Ag2C2) sensitivity in the Armstrong mix range. Since we've talked about making other fulminates
and no one seems to have experimented with substituting ethanol :confused: , Are other carbides .... like Pb etc possible to
prepare (thinking along the lines of azide as far as performance goes) has anyone attempted anything in this field ? (over to
the carbide section ...) :p

boob raider, i've been looking into this and the only good info i found was in federoff. it explains a fair bit <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Trinitrotoluene April 16th, 2003, 08:35 PM

For those of you who have some problems with obtaining ethonal, either if your too young or its too expensive, why not
ferment you own? In small batches you only seem to need sucrose(table sugur) water, and some yeast. But for larger batches
you need some nutrents.
rikkitikkitavi April 17th, 2003, 01:31 PM

yes, but homemade alcohol isnt exactly pure. After distillation you need to filter it through active carbon to remove most of
the impurities, otherwise these will create lots of sidereactions.
/rickard
Stone April 18th, 2003, 09:56 PM

Inferno... You can buy acetone from any hardware store in Oz. And as far as I know, the primers in shotgun shells contains
mercury fulminate, if you are still after it.

Shotshells have lead styphnate primers. AFAIK, MF is/was only used in Russian ammo, where it was the only primary sensitive
enough in the extremely cold weather. Caused bad barrel corrosion thought IIRC.
Stone April 19th, 2003, 08:22 PM

My bad, I was told they had mercury fulminate... So that yellow powder is Lead Styphnate?
Trinitrotoluene June 16th, 2003, 08:28 PM

Today I had a dream in my dream I prepeared mercury fulminate, this is what I did, In a 50ml erlin flask I added one gram
of mercury metal then added 10ml of HNO3.It took an hour to dissolve.In another 125ml erlin flask I added 15ml of 95%
ethanol(home distilled and ferminted).Then poured the nitrate/mercury soloution into it. No reaction, a little heat was applied
with a hot water bath, a vigerous reaction took place alot of white fumes, after a few minutes orange fumes, the reaction thats
suposed to take 15 minutes took less then 5 minutes. After that a precipitate formed white crystals with a peach colored tint.
The soloution was neutralized with sodium bicarbonate soloution, the crystals changed colors from white with peach tint to gray.
Its on a coffee filiter now drying.
frogfot June 17th, 2003, 05:44 AM

Is this color change normal? Many files on MF and SF never mentions washing with bicarbonate.. is there some obvious reason
to it?
rooster June 17th, 2003, 07:57 AM

Maybe some of the peach-coloured stuff reaacted with the bicarb, so that it left you a grey product? Anyways, I have never
heard of peach coloured fulminate. I suppose it depends on purity of chems and so on. It is used to be gray right from the
reaction. You can dissolve it in ammonia or something to get a white product. Also I heard something about adding some
copper before adding the Hg. What is this about?
Trinitrotoluene June 18th, 2003, 03:51 AM

I just thought that neutralizing it will yield a more stable product. I find it strange to find my mercury fulminate a preach color.
But again after neutralization, the color went to gray which is normally how unpurified mercury fulminate looks like. The
precursers use are rather fair.Mercury metal technical grade, ethanol, from fermination, then distillation 3 times to yield 95%,
nitric acid distilled from NaNO3, and H2SO4. I forgot to mention my HNO3 contained NO2, after adding the Hg metal into the
HNO3, the soloution didin't turn green it remained the same color as the HNO3, after adding the mixture to the ethanol, the
color disappeared and the whole soloution became clear, then a little heat was applied the reaction started.
Trinitrotoluene June 22nd, 2003, 03:34 AM

Does anyone know the senistivity of mercury fulmiate compaired to HTMD and AP? In my searches I had found that mercury
fulminate detonates form a .25cm drop from a 2kg weight, and HMTD 3cm from a 2kg weight, that seems very senistive. Are
those figures accerate?
Thanks.
Boob Raider June 26th, 2003, 12:16 AM

I came across a page which shows 3 possible structures for the fulminate ion. Here is what they are >
http://bilbo.chm.uri.edu/CHM501/oldproblemsets/DMA2_2.htm
The Hg(ONC)2 we make contains all three of these forms presumably. Does anyone know of ways to tilt the reaction in
forming the stabler version. Similar to the alpha - PbN3 and beta - PbN3.
frogfot June 26th, 2003, 05:31 AM

I assume the electron cloud moves freely and takes the most stable form itself.. don't see why it should lock on other two less
stable forms.
Boob Raider June 27th, 2003, 07:43 PM

Does anyone know what happens if iso-propanol is added to the Hg(NO3)2/HNO3 mix. I tried a very small amount in a test
tube and as soon as I add iso to the warm NO3 mix ..... a very vigorous reaction (exothermic too) takes place and the volume
increases almost 30 times and the mixture turns yellow from green. On the other hand when I added a mix of 90% ethOH/
5%Isopropanol/ 5%methanol the reaction some what spurted out of the tube in one shot. Later on I did notice some greyish-
white crystals in the tube, presumably of Hg(ONC)2.
IPN August 11th, 2003, 09:29 AM

SWIM had his first experience in mercury fulminate last night.
SWIM used 10ml HNO3 (65%), 1g pure mercury and 15ml ethanol (99%). SWIM put the 10ml HNO3 into a 100ml beaker and
added the mercury in, the reaction took few minutes and a green solution was left.
SWIM then put the 15ml of ethanol into 100ml erlenmeyer flask and added the HNO3/Hg mix, reaction was vigorous and took
approx. 7min.
50ml distilled water was added, mixture was filtered, and the precipitate washed 3 times with distilled water and once with
ethanol. A slightly gray precipitate was left in the filter paper.
Product was dried over night in a desiccator.
A 0,25g sample was placed on a metal plate and struck with a hammer, detonation occurred with a loud bang and formation of
mercury.
SWIM thinks that MF will be he's new primary because of the ease and speed of manufacture, although HMTD seems like a
more powerful and stable one..
al93535 April 22nd, 2004, 06:40 AM

Well I was making Hg fulminate and it went bad! Everything went fine until I started heating the solution after the addition of
alcohol. It began to emit white smoke as normal, then when I picked the flask up out of the bath to set it down it happened. I
looked at the Hg fulminate crystals, they were floating to the top and decomposing! It looked as if they were boiling. As soon
as I could set the flask down huge amounts of NOx, red smoke, was billowing out of the flask! There was tremendous
amounts of it, and it was accelerating more and more coming out incredibly fast. I dumped water into it fast and it stopped.
Just make sure not to heat the solution too much! ;) I just dumped the shit, just to be sure! What a waste of Hg and nitric.
Have to try again. :)
pdb April 22nd, 2004, 11:20 AM

Hg & Ag fulminates synthesis must be watched after as milk on fire...
You must be prepared to warm the mixture if the reaction seems to take a long time before starting (temperature should
increase slowly), and to slow the reaction down when it becomes too tumultuous, by addind a few ml of cold alcohol... As a
matter of fact, I always noticed the reaction is always more violent and irregular, hence unpredictable, with Ag than with Hg.
However, making AgONC is not a good idea given its extreme sensitivity.
Bert April 22nd, 2004, 07:12 PM

How close to theoretical is the yield from the classic Hg/HNO3/ethanol technique of fulminate production?
How seriously would the methanol denaturent in "hardware store" variety denatured alcohol affect the procedure?
al93535 April 22nd, 2004, 09:16 PM

Bert:
I always used the denatured alcohol with no problems. Except the once overheating it :) Yield seems okay, my first try I got
2.35 grams from one gram Hg.
Bert April 23rd, 2004, 12:38 AM

Bert:
Yield seems okay, my first try I got 2.35 grams from one gram Hg.
That yield is a lot better than OK-
Mercury metal: Mol weight = 200.59 aprox.
Mercury fulminate: HG(ONC)2 Mol weight: 284.59 aprox.
By my calculations, 1 gram of Hg should at most be capable of producing only about 1.418 grams of fulminate- Are you sure it
was dry?
al93535 April 23rd, 2004, 02:27 AM

Bert:
I did use .1 ml of mercury, its density being 13.something, so actually I used 1.3 grams. I am pretty sure it was dry, although
it was crude, not recrystalized. So some impurities were present. Although I thought more could be obtained from 1 gram.
Take a look at powerlabs.org, he synthesized 1.1 grams Hg to about 2.5 grams after recrystalization! I thought my yield was
just okay, being crude. I think I will recrystalize it and re-weigh and will post what I get back.
Bert April 23rd, 2004, 05:41 AM

Bert:
I did use .1 ml of mercury, its density being 13.something, so actually I used 1.3 grams.
It sounds like you didn't weigh the mercury? You tried to measure it by volume? Considering the behavior of small ammounts
of mercury, volume measure of such a small quantity isn't likely to be too accurate.
(quote from powerlabs)

Yield here is estimated at about 2.5 grams (one cc)
- Sounds like he just guessed.
al93535 April 23rd, 2004, 06:35 AM

Bert:
I didn't want to get any mercury on/in my scale. I know that small amount is hard to measure. I got close though, I used a 1
cc medical syringe with .1 cc increments. So I would guess it was pretty accurate. My powder is drying from recrystalization now,
will let you know the yield when it's dry. I will also be trying about half a gram of silver fulminate in the near future. :D
Bert April 23rd, 2004, 05:31 PM

Bert:
I didn't want to get any mercury on/in my scale.
Some have been known to weigh the reaction vessel empty and then weigh an ammount of a reactant desired directly into the
reaction vessel, eliminating loss, errors, and haveing to clean extra containers.
al93535 April 23rd, 2004, 06:15 PM

I use a reloading scale which goes to 500 grains and it's quite small, and very accurate, but I can't fit much onto it. Otherwise
I would have done just that. For other substances I use a coffee filter and subtract that from the final weight. I just don't like
messing with mercury, and won't be making any more of this stuff. I will stick with hmtd/rdx detonators. I weighed the
recrystalized product and got 1.983 grams of pure white Hg fulminate. I would say I got a good yield. The crude product was
grey/yellow. It deflagrates nicely and is quite bright. For others who can't get mercury, a good source is in abandonded
houses, in the air conditioning temerature setting device is a mercury switch.
Bert April 27th, 2004, 05:10 AM

Which nitrate of Mercury is formed by the reaction with nitric acid, mercurous nitrate Hg2(NO3)2
or mercuric nitrate Hg(NO3)2 ?
Sarevok April 27th, 2004, 05:52 AM

al93535: When heated, mercurous oxide is decomposed to mercury and oxygen. Mercurous oxide itself can be bought from
chemical supply stores. That's much better than stealing garbage from abandoned houses, isn't it?
Bert: With hot nitric acid, it forms mercuric nitrate, Hg(NO3)2. If there is an excess of mercury, however, it forms mercurous
nitrate, HgNO3.
Bert April 27th, 2004, 11:49 AM

With hot nitric acid, it forms mercuric nitrate, Hg(NO3)2. If there is an excess of mercury, however, it forms mercurous nitrate,
HgNO3.
I'd then assume an excess of HNO3 is present in the classic Hg fulminate synthesis, and the intermediate "greenish" solution
is mercuric nitrate in nitric acid-
BTW, from US patent #4093623:
A Hg(NO3)2 solution was prepared by dissolving 54.0 grams of red mercuric oxide in 200 ml of 35 percent nitric acid
If this is correct, no need to decompose the red mercury oxide to metalic Mercury prior to reacting with nitric acid?
Sarevok May 1st, 2004, 12:25 AM
The patent's information is probably correct. HgO is easily decomposed to its constituents; it probably undergoes
decomposition when being dissolved in nitric acid too.
Myrol May 2nd, 2004, 09:53 AM

Has Mercury fulminate a better Initiating effect than AP? Or is it just wasting time to make MF contra AP? I have here around
25ml Hg left from my University and have no real use for it!
metafractal May 2nd, 2004, 10:22 AM

AP has a higher explosive power (det. velocity, brisance) than mercury fulminate and therefore is a better initiator. However,
mercury fulminate is storage stable where AP is not. Whilst of similar sensitivites, mercury fulminate's activity is generally
predictable whereas AP might withstand a 3kg anvil drop one day, and detonate from a feather the next. So it has its upsides.
Rosco Bodine May 2nd, 2004, 12:50 PM

AP has a higher explosive power (det. velocity, brisance)
than mercury fulminate and therefore is a better initiator.
It is admittedly counterintuitive , but such properties are not absolutely

definitive about what will be the efficiency of an initiating explosive ,
and that anomaly applies in this case , because AP is a *poorer* initiator
than MF , in spite of the numbers for AP which would indicate the opposite
expectation to be realized .
However, mercury fulminate is storage stable where AP is not.
The reverse is actually true , if chemical stability is what you are describing .
The instability of AP is a *physical* problem related to volatility , where
smaller crystals sublime and recrystallize in situ , forming larger and larger
crystals over some weeks or months time , the continual process produces
an unpredictable physical form for the charge , even a "self-grinding" effect
for compressed crystals is conceivable , which could result in spontaneous
detonation . What are the odds of this happening with AP , and the charge
geometries / quantities which would be vulnerable , I don't know .
Using AP as an unreenforced top charge initiator in attempts to detonate

picric acid , I have had no experiments produce detonations of picric acid ,
whereas similar quantities of HMTD always produced complete detonations
of the picric acid base charge in compound detonators . From such experiments
it is evident that in unreenforced caps where relatively insensitive base charges
are to be used , AP is not useful , but within its limited shelf life , HMTD is
useful as an initiating explosive . These experiments involved lightly pressed
charges of 9 mm column diameter in 1.5 mm wall thickness polypropylene tubes .
Whilst of similar sensitivites, mercury fulminate's activity is generally predictable

whereas AP might withstand a 3kg anvil drop one day, and detonate from a feather
the next. So it has its upsides.
Von Herz reported that the performance of mercury fulminate could

be greatly enhanced by its mixture with lead styphnate , or by use
of mercury fulminate as a cover charge for lead styphnate , as an
initiating means for a base charge of pressed crystalline TNT .
GB142823
More dubious information as follows :
A curious patent of interest related to a "modified" mercury fulminate

in a mixture with an unspecified basic lead picrate double salt is
GB199489
And by the same inventor a mercury fulminate "substitute" based

upon the same sort of basic lead picrate double salt wetted with
a small percentage of nitroglycerine
US1398098
Details of Chandelon's warm process batch method for mercury fulminate

is briefly described on the first page of
US1523338
Bert May 2nd, 2004, 06:55 PM

The patent's information is probably correct. HgO is easily decomposed to its constituents; it probably undergoes
decomposition when being dissolved in nitric acid too.
Sadly, it doesn't appear to work. At least not as when substituted directly into the classical procedure in an ammount suitable
to provide an equimolar ammount of Mercury. It does dissolve in the Nitric acid producing a clear solution ,which has no
reaction with ethanol even on heating other than the evolution of what I assume to be ethyl nitrate fumes.
Rosco Bodine May 2nd, 2004, 07:18 PM
Try dropping a pinch of starch , paraformaldehyde , or sodium nitrite
into the reaction mixture and see if that doesn't initiate the reaction .
Bert May 4th, 2004, 06:41 PM

Try dropping a pinch of starch , paraformaldehyde , or sodium nitrite
into the reaction mixture
5.4 g of red mercury oxide (HgO) was dissolved in 50 ml of room temperature 70% HNO3 in a 500 ml beaker, resulting in a
clear solution with no visible fuming and only a mild warming.
50 ml of denatured ethanol was measured out, 25 ml of which was quickly added to the Mercury nitrate solution. After about 5
minutes, no visible reaction was noted. At this time, .25 g of Sodium nitrite (NaNo2) was added to the beaker. A mild
effervescence and a change of the solution to a slightly yellowish color was noted after a few moments. The effervescence
accelerated, with self heating and development of heavy white fumes. When the reaction seemed in need of moderation to
prevent bubbling over, the remaining 25 ml of alcohol was added to the mix in several small portions. An additional 20 ml of
alcohol was also added for purposes of reaction moderation after the initial 50 ml was expended, bringing the total to 70 ml.
About 30 minutes after the onset of effervescence, the reaction had subsided and a considerable amount of a light grayish
precipitate had settled out. The contents of the beaker was added to about 200 ml of distilled water and the solids filtered out
in a Buchner funnel. The retained solids were washed with several portions of water and then given a final wash with alcohol.
The first obtained solids weighed 5.1 g after drying, and were of a yellowish/grayish color and needle like crystal shape.
These solids were dissolved in 80 ml of 30% ammonia and the liquid filtered. The filtered liquid was carefully neutralized with
glacial acetic acid, the resulting precipitate filtered out, washed with water and then alcohol and dried. The precipitate weighed
3.65 g after drying and was a dense sparkly white powder consisting of small crystals, quite different in shape from the crystals
of the initial product.
The product displayed the characteristics of mercury fulminate, deflagrating in small quantities in the open and detonating
violently in larger quantities or if confined. The entire remaining batch was mixed in 80:20 ratio with KClO3and detonated, as
dry storage seemed inadvisable and no use was anticipated for a primary explosive... "It made a jolly bang"
Rosco Bodine May 4th, 2004, 09:44 PM

It was an educated guess that nitric oxides present in the acid
as a byproduct from the formation of nitrates from the metals ,
would be the thing missing from the system if you made the nitrate
from the oxide of the metal instead of using the free metal .
Anything which would cause decomposition of the nitric acid

and produce nitric oxides would probably initiate the reaction .
The materials which I mentioned above would cause the missing
nitric oxide to be formed .
ikbendirk May 16th, 2004, 09:13 AM

Why bother trying to dissolve the mercury in nitric acid?
I know mercuric/-ous nitrate isn't a very common salt, but for example, in the silver fulminate synthesis, instead of dissolving
silver in nitric acid, why wouldn't you just dissolve AgNO3, one of the most common silver salts...?
I know that for some of you this isn't the best way to do it, because of the availability of chemicals, but as my father is a
teacher in chemics, he can easily get me some AgNO3, where HNO3 seems to be too dangerous to him.
So is it technically possible to substitute the Hg/HNO3 solution by Hg(NO3)2?
Or the Ag/HNO3 solution by AgNO3?
K9 May 16th, 2004, 10:06 AM

I'm fairly certain that for the synthesis you want a solution of the nitrate in an excess of the acid, and thus even with the
nitrate salt you would still want to dissolve it in the acid before the reaction with the ethanol.
Rosco Bodine May 16th, 2004, 10:38 AM

Surely you can use oxides or nitrates or other compounds of the metals
as the starting material for the fulminates , but these would need to
be dissolved in nitric acid to supply the excess nitric needed for optimum
yields of the fulminate . Less added nitric acid would be needed if the
metal source being supplied was already a nitrate .
As Bert observed above , the presence of some nitric oxides is also

needed in the reaction mixture to initiate the oxidation of the ethanol ,
and this complicates the process slightly if you are using a metal nitrate
as the starting material . If you start by dissolving the metal directly
in excess nitric acid , the byproduct nitric oxides are present in the
residual acid solution of the metal nitrate just formed , and the reaction
begins on contact with ethanol , with no added catalyst needed .
Economy is the principal reason for simply dissolving the metal in

nitric acid for the synthesis of fulminate . For the market cost of
silver nitrate is easily twenty times the cost of the silver contained ,
at six dollars for an ounce of silver , it is evident that is far cheaper
to dissolve a one ounce bullion coin in nitric acid and evaporate the
solution on a *mildly warm* water bath to obtain your silver nitrate .
( The nitrates are heat sensitive and will decompose to the oxides if
a boiling water bath is used )
For mercury , the story is similar .
palpy May 16th, 2004, 05:40 PM

It's not nitric oxides, but HNO2 what is crucial for the initiation of the reaction (it converts acetaldehyde into
isonitrosoaldehyde). That's why HNO2 free nitric acid can't be used for the production of fulminates. Ordinary commercial grade
HNO3 contains trace amounts of HNO2, which starts the reaction, is consumed, but then recycled as a byproduct in the final
stage (creation of fulminic acid) of the reaction chain.

An assortment of nitrogen oxides and their corresponding acids
and intermediates and reaction products is going to be present
in the complex reaction mixture . Which one is definitively essential
for the reaction to start is probably not even possible to determine
since many or all of those nitrogen oxides are going to be present
as the reaction proceeds along many possible paths simultaneously .
HNO2 will evidently initiate the reaction , but so should other
radicals reactive with HNO3 or with each other and water leading
to the HNO2 . The solution of a freshly made heavy metal nitrate
in excess acid would be well polluted with HNO2 and NO2 and NO ,
but all such nitric oxides are going to be present in some mix of
proportions depending upon temperature . Simply heating the
nitric acid solution of the metal nitrate derived from whatever source
would eventually lead to the presence of these compounds from
the thermal decomposition of the nitric acid and/or the metal nitrate .
Likewise , leaving the flask sitting in direct sunlight would probably
get the reaction started . It is a murky matter to identify precisely
which species in such a mixture is the key reactant , when several
oxidizing compounds are present simultaneously , and any one of those
interrelated nitrogen oxides could catalyze the reaction . Berts experiment
confirms that adding a nitrite will cause a sluggish reaction to initiate ,
but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only way to do that trick
or that HNO2 is the only possible starting point for the reaction .
Anyway , we generally agree about the HNO2 being an initiator of the
reaction , but its origin is more from the solution of a heavy metal
being dissolved in nitric acid to produce the nitrate , than is it present
in any substantial amount in ordinary concentrated nitric acid of commerce .
Consider the different equations below for the formation of the nitrate
from silver and mercury dissolved in nitric acid , understanding that
both reaction mixtures will self initiate on contact with ethanol to
form the fulminates .
mercury in concentrated nitric acid

Hg + 4 HNO3 -------> Hg (NO3) 2 + 2 NO2 + 2 H2O
mercury in dilute nitric acid

3 Hg + 8 HNO3 ------> 3 Hg (NO3) 2 + 2 NO + 4 H2O
3Ag + 4 HNO3 -------> 3 AgNO3 + NO + 2 H2O
You see the variations in byproducts confound the identification ,

before you even look at the possible reaction products of the
nitrogen oxides with water which further complicates the matter .
Bert May 20th, 2004, 01:18 PM

These solids were dissolved in 80 ml of 30% ammonia and the liquid filtered. The filtered liquid was carefully neutralized with
glacial acetic acid, the resulting precipitate filtered out, washed with water and then alcohol and dried.
Household ammonia water sold around here is 3%.
The strongest "janitor grade" ammonia water I can buy OTC is 10%.
Lab grade concentrated ammonia at nearby chemical suppliers is 29.4%.
On looking up solubility data, I find that maximum solubility is supposed to be around 31% at STP, and at 0* C around 42%.
I have prepared a more concentrated solution from the OTC 10% by heating a 3X volume and bubbling the ammonia that
comes out of solution through a single volume of 10% in a salt/ice bath-
Does anyone have a chart of specific gravity vs. % concentration for ammonia? It's a reverse of the one for acid- it gets LESS
dense the more concentrated it is. Experimentally, I found 30% be .927 g/ml and 10% to be .963 g/ml at room temperature.
What is the minimum concentration needed to dissolve Mercury fulminate? Is there solubility information (grams per liter @
concentration @ temperature) available? COPAE just says "strong ammonia water"... 30% works, but is this excessive?
In regards to acetic acid, how strong a solution could be prepared by distillation from the commercially available 5% "white
vinegar"? What would be the parameters for temperature?
And lastly, what ARE the impurities removed by purification of the yellow/tan crude fulminate?! I actually saw a few tiny beads
of METALLIC Mercury on the bottom of the beaker after dissolving- I also wonder what kind of yield is technicaly possible, I
find it unlikely that even in the "good old days" a 50% of theory yield from expensive Mercury would have been acceptable!
Marvin May 20th, 2004, 03:02 PM

Normal lab ammonia is traditionally 880, which is around 35% w/w.
Try,
http://www.terraindustries.com/our_products/ammonia/ammonia_tech_manual_2002.pdf
I'm unaware of any problems making glacial acetic acid by distillation, but its a hell of a job in terms of volume. Glacial acetic
acid can usually be bought from photographic suppliers.
I only tried mercury fulminate once, for obvios reasons, and I didnt purify it as Davis says the grey product is (was)
commercial grade anyway.

http://chemdat.merck.de/cdrl/services/labtools/en/tools_body.html
An assortment of very useful printable tables are here ,

including a density table for aqueous ammonia solutions .
The best OTC source for concentrated ammonium hydroxide

is at drafting and blueprint supply stores where gallon jugs
are sold cheaply as blueprint developer for the diazo process .
Seven or eight dollars per gallon for 28-30 percent .
Bert May 20th, 2004, 03:49 PM

Thanks, Rosco, Marvin-
From the Merck table, I would judge that either my graduate or my scale is inaccurate. I used a 5cc graduate, perhaps I will try
again with a larger volume in hopes of reducing measurement errors. (Or my lab supplier may be watering the goods!)
I was looking at this from the viewpoint of OTC from grocery store, auto supply store and a few salvaged Mercury switches.
With photography supply and blueprint supply thrown in, you don't have to waste time concentrating solutions, making Nitric
acid from battery electrolyte and fertilizer is certainly enough effort without that on top! I understand that the the commercial
product was not purified back in the day- Did that contribute to a short storage life? I have seen in COPAE that a fulminate cap
was rendered inert by a couple of years storage in the tropics-
Another issue I've wondered about is the 80:20 fulminate/chlorate mix used in the original Copper blasting caps. I've been
taught to not handle chlorates with copper or brass tools- Could that have contributed to shortening the storage life?

There is a patent about the usefulness of vacuum drying
mercury fulminate at a slightly elevated temperature in
order to remove traces of volatile free metallic mercury
trapped in the material during manufacture , so it is
reasonable to expect that without recrystallization
the presence of traces of free mercury in unpurified fulminate
indeed does occur and has been a problem also observed by others .
US1718371
0EZ0 May 21st, 2004, 02:36 AM

Free Hg metal is most certainly aparrent in the unpurified end product. I presume the mercury metal is present from the
thermal decomposition of Hg(NO3)2 starting material and of the intermediate salts during the reaction process. Also the crude
Hg fulminate could contain various compounds and oxidation products of ethanol and any contaminants in the starting
precursors. I think there is some discussion earlier in this thread and others pertaining to the same subject that contain info
on the by-products of the fulminate reaction.
As I understand it, Hg(ONC)2 is not thermally stable, like many other Hg salts and will decompose at a fast rate under heat. It
will also decompose on long term storage where the ambient temperature is high (just as in the tropics). COPAE has alot of
info on Hg fulminate if you wish to find further information.
As for Acetic Acid, well there are a few different routes to preparing it. Distillation of common 'white vinegar' is not the the most
attractive option but should be possible. Keep in mind that Acetic acid distills over at a higher temperature than water (at
something like 120 degress C) and that azeotropes of the two components are said not to form.
The better method for the preparation of Acetic acid is through first creating an Acetate salt either with Sodium Hydroxide or
some other hydroxide. Then you can either dry distill the anhydrous salt to produce Acetic acid fumes or alternatively combine
the salt with Sulfuric acid and then distill. Of course if you can get a large amount of food grade Sodium Acetate then it would
be much cheaper and more efficient than starting from vinegar.
Sodium Acetate is a component in reusable hot packs that incorporate a supersaturated solution of the salt which produces
heat upon crystallising with a metal disk. Sodium Acetate is hardly going to arouse suspicion if bought from a bulk
commercial/industrial supplier. Food grade Sodium Acetate is sold to caterers and other food preparation businesses as a
flavouring(salt & vinegar) and preservative. It also finds wide use in industry for many other applications.
Medicinal hot packs and Sulfuric acid drain opener or battery electrolyte are both found quite easily OTC. It should not be too
hard with this information in mind, to produce Glacial Acetic acid in the home without too much fuss.
Rosco Bodine May 23rd, 2004, 10:41 AM

There may be a different and more economical simpler
method for isolating pure mercury fulminate , which also
provides the option for making other fulminates from
the sodium fulminate intermediate . Davis reports in
COPAE that mercury fulminate crystallizes from water
with a half molecule of water of cystallization , or one
molecule of water bound with two molecules of mercury
fulminate , but gives no temperature associated for the
formation of that hydrate . He also reports that the
anhydrous salt is obtained by crystallization from alcohol .
The solubility of mercury fulminate in a liter of water is
.71 grams @ 12 C , 1.74 grams @ 49 C , 7.7 grams @ 100 C .
Given the significant solubility in hot water of mercury fulminate ,
it would seem that seven grams per liter of water could easily
be purified by making a saturated solution in boiling water ,
and then pouring that into a large shallow tray for rapid cooling .
It has been reported by the early researchers that digesting

mercury fulminate in water with sodium chloride will lead
to a solution of sodium fulminate . Given the solubility of
mercury fulminate in water , perhaps it would be better
to add a solution of sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate
dropwise to a rapidly stirred suspension of mercury fulminate ,
which should react with the dissolved mercury fulminate to
precipitate the relatively insoluble mercury carbonate , as
additional mercury fulminate dissolves to continue the reaction
to completion . The result would be a solution of sodium fulminate
and an insoluble precipitate of mercury carbonate which can be
recycled in mercury fulminate synthesis . By this method it should
be possible to produce a relatively concentrated solution of
sodium fulminate , which could be used to precipitate many
different fulminates by a cold process , simply by mixing with
a solution of the metal nitrate , acetate , ect. of the metal fulminate
desired . The precipitated fulminates could then be controlled
in crystalline size , precipitated as mixed or double salts , or
given coatings and other treatments by the same strategies as
are used for producing metal azides . If workable , this method
might be of particular interest for silver azide , which could be
made in extremely small particles and then perhaps coated with
two or three per cent of its weight , of an adherent film of bright
red silver chromate , from a finish treatment with sodium dichromate .
This would provide an insensitive coating upon the microcrystals
and also greatly diminish or eliminate photosensitivity by the opacity
of the silver chromate coating . This is all purely theoretical .
I have done no experiments at all to test this proposed scheme ,
or to identify any potential dangers .
However , there may be some usefulness in the strategy for producing

sodium fulminate by the above proposed method , which could
then be used by a cold process to make purified metal fulminates
of interest , including a purified mercury fulminate itself , by an
alternate method which requires only aqueous solutions , and
does not require ammonia nor acetic acid .
Rosco Bodine May 23rd, 2004, 04:33 PM

Being curious about the above theory/theories ,
I have decided to do an experiment to attempt to
confirm or disprove the ideas . A small batch of
fulminate is precipitating now as I am writing this post .
The method that I am using is a slight variation on
megalomanias method for mercury fulminate , using
one and one half times the amounts and using denatured
alcohol instead of pure ethanol . When I mixed the
still slightly warm green solution of mercury nitrate
in nitric acid , all at once with the alcohol , there was
only a slight warming and the reaction did not proceed
further . I tried adding a tenth gram of sodium nitrite
and the reaction mixture warmed slightly , then cooled
again . So I set the beaker in a pan of very hot water ,
to kickstart the reaction . The heat did the trick , and
the reaction is feeble enough for these quantities that
I am leaving the beaker in the hot water to maintain the heat
of reaction . There is a steady effervescence in the solution
with a smoky dense white vapor above the liquid . In the opening
at the top of the beaker I have placed a small pyrex bowl
of the sort used to serve sauces in restaurants , a custard cup
as some call it , and there are three ice cubes melting in this
improvised "cold finger" which is working nicely to return any
alcohol to the reaction by drips from its cold underside .
There is a pungent odor of fresh cut apples in the vicinity
of the reaction outdoors , indicating the escaping acetaldehyde .
And a layer of fine sand like crystals , very pale yellowish , almost
white in color is accumulating steadily on the bottom of the beaker .
There is no violence at all about the reaction , the reaction is
a steady effervescence of very fine small bubbles with no boiling
of the liquid or larger bubbles or foaming problems at all .
It looks like a reaction time of about one to two hours
is what will be the duration , even with the supplemental heat .
I did not check using a thermometer , but my estimate is that
the reaction runs steadily at about 80 C , and slows below that .
If the fulminate is still very light in color and evidently reasonably
pure , I may skip the boiling water recrystallization , and go
straight to an attempt to convert the mercury fulminate to
sodium fulminate .
Edit : The crystals are dried and weighed . The color is a light tan
with no gray at all , so the purity looks good , but the yield of the
process is shit , only four grams from 7.5 grams of mercury ,
a yield of only 37 per cent of theory . 10.64 grams would have been
100 per cent yield , based on anhydrous mercury fulminate . The
yield for commercial manufacture of large batches is about 88 per cent ,
or about 1.25 grams of mercury fulminate from each gram of mercury .
In the commercial process the reactants are prewarmed to 55 C ,
so that the heat of reaction is sufficient from there to maintain the reaction .
For small batches , it is probably even more important that the reactants
be sufficiently warm before mixing , and in future procedures I will
use more heat early in the reaction in an effort to improve yields .
Update: The four grams of mercury fulminate were suspended in

40 ml water and to the well stirred suspension was slowly added by drops
a solution of 2.3 grams sodium bicarbonate in 30 ml water . There was
only a very slight cloudiness observed and no effervescence of carbon dioxide ,
indicating that the reaction to produce sodium fulminate failed .
If sodium fulminate had been produced , there would have been free
carbon dioxide produced as a byproduct , and this did not occur .
A later experiment will be done to see if sodium hydroxide will produce
the desired sodium fulminate . It may be that the early researchers use
of sodium chloride is because other sodium compounds don't work .
pdb May 24th, 2004, 04:03 AM

Rosco: you bad yield comes most likely from the fact you left the reaction run too long... I have noticed on numerous
occasions that the MF precipitate would reduce when left overtime, leading me to limit the reaction to 30 minutes only, which
implies you have to start it straightly by heating the mix if bubbling has not started in the first 5 minutes. Another
experimental statement I noted is what I would condense in "the more violent, the better", i.e. contrary to what you did, quiet
bubbling is not an omen for a good yield. On the opposite, a tumultuous reaction generally gives an higher crop. However, in
my best trials, I never exceeded 82%... but 100% or close is out of reach with this method.

Yeah , I agree that the reaction needs to start quick ,
and run to completion quickly . I searched a lot of
old usenet postings and read every patent I could find
for any clues about details that are important to getting
better yields . One thing that was mentioned several times
is that many denatured alcohols will contain methanol which
will cause a sluggish starting reaction and poor or no yield ,
as methanol tends to poison the reaction for fulminate .
That is probably what crippled the reaction for me because
I did use an ordinary paint thinner grade of denatured alcohol .
There is a medical grade of 70 per cent ethanol "rubbing alcohol" ,
that is denatured with something else which may give better results .
Beverage grade "everclear grain alcohol" is supposed to give the
best results . So the purity of the alcohol and the type denaturant
are reported factors .
The temperature of the nitric acid solution of mercuric nitrate

and the alcohol should *both* be *very warm* when the initial mixing
is done , so that the "induction period" for the reaction to reach
the boiling point is shortened , and the reaction begins quickly .
I saw one post that mentioned the reaction for fulminate proceeds
best within a temperature range of 80 to 90 C in the reacting mixture .
A lot of unreacted alcohol is likely boiling away during the reaction ,
and perhaps carrying away some other volatile byproducts along
with the alcohol vapor , so it may actually impair the reaction to condense and
return any of this vapor as I was doing . I don't really know what the
story is on this possible variable . There is a lot of acetaldehyde
produced by the reaction , and the well rinsed and dried crystals
in my sample still have a slight residual odor of acetaldehyde when
they are wetted again with water . The color is very light tan , and
not gray at all . The crystals were almost white in the reaction mixture
when they first formed , but darkened slightly to a tan color on standing
in the spent mixture , and remained a tan color after rinsing and drying .
The reaction mixture and the crystals themselves are about the same
color as a light ale .
One post I read mentioned using acetone with the ethanol in a 1 to 3 ratio
when making silver fulminate , and I do not know what is the reason for
that unless perhaps to help moderate the temperature for the more heat
sensitive silver salt .
pdb May 24th, 2004, 09:15 AM

I think I have read a lot along the years about MF and SF, and I never came across any information reporting adjunction of
acetone... As I said in another post, the only difference I noted between MF and SF synthesis is that the latter is more violent
and more irregular than the former. I really do not see a need for moderating temperature because of SF's great sensitivity: I
had several unwanted explosions with SF, in dry and damp states, but never when it wall still soaking in the rest of the acid-
alcool mix, where anyway the temperature cannot raise higher than the boiling point.
I have an interesting monograph on MF of different colors (white to grey and tan), but unfortunately for you it's in French. My
MF always comes as a grey or tan product, that you can later purify to get the white flavour.

That reference to use of acetone with ethanol was something
I first read about on the russian page I have mentioned before .
Here is a link to an outline of the process also containing a link
to the Russian page itself , which is a difficult page , UTF-8 encoding ,
cyrillic characters , and thereafter difficult to translate using a
chemistry specific translation engine , the translation is muddy
and barely understandable .
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=18dc68903a7ee3eb&rnum=7
About silver fulminate , yeah the sensitivity of the usual product

is indeed the problem . Trying to tame it is precisely the interest
of my experiment to produce the silver fulminate by a cold process
from sodium fulminate and silver nitrate solutions .
pdb May 24th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Looking at my lab notes, I found that I have never prepared sodium fulminate. However, I did make some Cd(ONC)2 by
moderately heating a mix of CdCl2 & Hg(ONC)2 in water. I obtain a tiny precipitate of a fine white powder, which deflagrates
when lit by flame. I never got enough to study DDT.
I also prepared Pb fulminate by leaving in presence Hg(ONC)2 and an Pb amalgam for a few days: it's a grey powder which
also deflagrates.
Last, I also succeeded to prepare Copper Fulminate from the metal and Hg(ONC)2 in water, with or without NH4OH. Varying the
conditions, I obtain products of different appearance, among which a green fine powder which would deflagrate with a green
flame. But again, I couldn't study DDT.

In COPAE there is a table showing comparisons
of the minimum charges of various fulminates and azides
required for initiating various common base charges .
According to that table , silver , copper , and cadmium fulminates

are roughly comparable with the azides in their initiating ability ,
when loaded in a detonator capsule and fired .
Update : After not getting any reaction with sodium bicarbonate solution
added to a stirred suspension of mercury fulminate , I tried the same
procedure with sodium hydroxide solution and no joy with it either .
One benefit that did occur from the treatment with dilute sodium hydroxide
is a change in the crystalline form to a much finer mesh . There was
probably some slight erosion of the thinner ends of any needle form crystals ,
or the larger crystals were fractured into smaller fragments during the
extended stirring , to produce a more desirable fine mesh of crystals
than was obtained directly from the original synthesis . It is evident
now that the fulminate salt of mercury has little reactivity with dilute bases
even when both are in solution . Chemically its behavior resembles that
of a relatively stable carbonate or basic carbonate or oxide in reacting
very little or not at all with dilute bases . It is becoming clear why a
chloride is the compound found to be useful by the early researchers ,
but I do not like the prospect of having calomel as the byproduct , which
would complicate recycling the mercury in the process . Another idea
has occurred to me which intends to exploit the solubility difference
between mercury fulminate and silver fulminate . A liter of water at
100 C will dissolve 7.7 grams of mercury fulminate , but only .1 gram
of silver fulminate , a very drastic difference in solubility . So it may be
possible to simply make a near saturated , near boiling solution of mercury fulminate ,
and add to this a slight excess of theory of a similarly hot and saturated solution of silver nitrate .
Silver fulminate should immediately precipitate , and the mercury nitrate byproduct
remain in solution , from which it can be recovered by evaporation of the water ,
and easily recycled . I will do an experiment to see if this idea works .

So far , not everything that works out on paper holds true in the beaker .
The mercury fulminate did dissolve when sprinkled into well stirred
very hot water which was just at the boiling point . The fulminate
solubility agreed with the figure of 7.7 grams per liter @ 100 C .
The saturated solution was allowed to cool again to 80 C to see
if the fulminate would begin crystallizing back out , which it did ,
confirming that the mercury fulminate was in solution intact , and
not decomposed by the boiling water . The crystals appeared to
be white cubes about the granulation size of table salt . Whether
this is the hemihydrate or the anhydrous salt is unknown . It could
be the anhydrous salt crystallizes at above a certain temperature ,
and the hemihydrate is formed at below a certain temperature , as
is true for many hydrates . Making a determination or finding a reference
about the hydration states of mercury fulminate would provide useful
information for use of the boiling water recrystallization and purification
of mercury fulminate , which appears upon first examination to be practical .
However , upon adding silver nitrate solution to a hot nearly saturated

solution of mercury fulminate , the atempt to produce silver fulminate
by metathesis failed . Instead of the solution turning milky and giving
silver fulminate , the solution turned black and precipitated what appears
to be silver oxide . A perfect example of how in chemistry 1 + 1 is not 2 .
Many of these type outcomes occur , but you never know until you try
to see exactly what will be the actual result as compared with what is
guessed may occur . A different silver salt like the acetate may work ,
or the reaction may be pH sensitive , or the reaction may not work
under any conditions .
Edit: I obtained a pint bottle of the medical grade ethanol "rubbing alcohol"
70 per cent ethanol by volume , and it lists the minor ingredients as
acetone , denatonium benzoate ? , methyl isobutyl ketone , and water ,
a specially denatured alcohol formulation SDA-43-640 . There is probably
a reference somewhere as to what percentages of the denaturants are
used . I am going to shake up this alcohol with an excess of anhydrous
sodium carbonate to tie up the water , and then agitate the anhydrous
alcohol with activated charcoal powder to purify it further , hoping
this will be a sufficiently pure ethanol for fulminate synthesis , from a
cheap source , aside from going the moonshine route , or paying the
cost for expensive beverage alcohol .
The solubility of the mercury fulminate in hot water is something I keep thinking about
in terms of how this could be useful . One idea that has occurred to me is that perhaps
mercury fulminate may form a double salt with mercury or basic mercury picrate and
if it does , then this material could have useful properties .
rasputin_ecuador June 18th, 2007, 08:47 PM

When I tried making MF... the first time I put 5g of Hg in 35ml of 70% Nitric and for some reason alot of NO2 was released
and the mercury dissolved in seconds, when I added 30ml of 96% ethyl alcohol NO2 was also released in great quantities and
after 10 minutes white fumes started appearing and it formed a yellow precipitate that floated in the solution, I filtered and
washed with distilled water, after drying i tried detonating with no success. The second time, same exact ingredients were used
but this time Hg didn't dissolve quite as quickly and released no NO2 gases. When mixed with alcohol the same reaction as
the first time took place and again yellow precipitate floated in the solution. Both times after filtering washing and drying the
MF did not detonate. Has anyone had the same disappointing results? What could have possibly gone wrong?
tintinteslacoil July 17th, 2007, 06:48 PM

I tried purifying some mercury fulminate by the ammonium hydroxide/acetic acid method as mentioned, and it ruined it. I got
a fluffy grey ball that wouldn't explode. I had made it by the Army's Improvised Munitions handbook, and should have used it
as-is. What a waste of Mg.
truonggiang_male90 July 21st, 2007, 01:58 PM

This's my video i cacthed at home, MF synthesis, I used Hg metal. 68% HNO3 and 98% alcohol, it worked very well, U can see
the reaction in my video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2OWP4pTCog
The_Duke July 21st, 2007, 10:21 PM

Your making MF on a chair, in your house, with no fume hood, while not wearing socks and shoes... :eek:
I'll bet your mother wasn't too happy about all the acid splashes on her floor and good dinner chair. :p
Next time use a flask outside while wearing shoes and pants (not shorts!) or someday you will regret not doing so, this much
is certain.
Charles Owlen Picket July 22nd, 2007, 03:44 PM

You won't get a quality result if you do not use ethyl alcohol......the consumable variety.
If you are using other types of supposed EtOH then you will be disappointed every time. Use REAL ethyl alcohol such as
EverClear.
tranquillity February 11th, 2008, 12:38 AM

I recently made some MF. For some reason the 2.9g of mercury took almost an hour to dissolve. After the synth proceeded as
normal. I got 2.4g of very fine grey crystals after recrystallization which is a somewhat dissapointing 58% yeild. This could be
attributed to the fact i used methylated spirits instead of pure ethanol or a large amount of product remained in solution after
recrystallization.
Charles Owlen Picket February 11th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Here are some time honored facts about MF from industrial sources within the US when production was a daily affair...*
1.) -=Ethanol=-, the consumable variety, was used. NOT rubbing alcohol or methanol or even denatured alcohol....but ethanol
at the standard 95%.
2.) The Hg was left to stand in the acid at minimum 18 hours to achieve a degree of free mercuric nitrate; this is very
important for yield volume as it's the level of that precursor that determines what is actually acted upon in the fulmination
process.
3.) The actual shape of the reaction vessel has a bearing on the process and the foaming should be encouraged to wash into
itself (refluxing) so as to maintain a consistent level of free mercury while the reaction takes place.
Those are the hard basics; if they are maintained the reaction and yield level is both consistent and high quality. Fulminates
have a sort of "art" to their lab..... It's a rather finicky synthesis & those are pivotal areas....
* A.G. Griffin & Sons. 1903, Austin Powder Co.
sagv April 6th, 2008, 01:07 PM

I was thinking of making mercury fulminate however obtaining sufficient mercury was impossible.
However I managed to pick 1/2 kg of mercuric chloride and 1 kg of silver nitrate from my college lab. Now considering the low
solubility of silver chloride, it seems to be very simple to obtain mercury nitrate from them by a simple double decomposition.
But can this mercuric nitrate be used to make the fulminate by adding it to ethanol and nitric acid or is it necessary that the
mercury nitrate be generated in situ ?
Also even after the silver chloride precipitates some amount of silver will be present in the solution. So will any silver fulminate
form and make the mercury fulminate unstable or will the synthesis work ?
tranquillity April 27th, 2008, 03:01 AM

Any silver remaining will form incredibly unstable silver fulminate which you obviously dont want. Instead try reacting your
mercuric chloride with sodium carbonate in solution and mercuric carbonate should precipitate this can then be dissolved in
nitric acid releasing CO2 and giving you Hg(NO3)2.
Take care with all that mercury as it is incredibly toxic made even worse by how soluble the chloride is.
Charles Owlen Picket April 27th, 2008, 10:39 AM

The mercuric nitrate may actually be ideal for your efforts. As I am sure you know of the toxicity issues I won't belabor them at
all. The methods to utilize an existing nitrate is so simple that the resultant fulminate will be of a very high quality.
Through a molar ratio dissolve the HgNO3 in a 1:3 level of 70% HNO3, allow this to remain in solution for at least 6 hours with
no shaking (there are reasons for this that are involved in the precipitating-fulminating process). Introduce your ethanol at a
level of 240ml:200ml acid to ethanol. Make sure your reaction vessel (under a hood or out of doors) is large enough and "tall
walled" enough to cope with the vigorous reaction.
Realistically, if you do use a hood make sure that the thing is strong enough to pull all the smoke from a burning
newspaper.....as the level of reactants in the atmosphere are heavy and the majority of hoods just aren't up to the task. Out-
of-doors may be best.
I have seen the HgNO3 process work quite well.The resultant product is quite clean & well formed.
Silver fulminate is not unstable. It is sensitive. If you have an understanding for the level of sensitivity evolved silver
fulminate is akin to any other primary of that level of sensitivity. [...If you do not fully appreciate the issues with ANY energetic
material: then the inherent dangers are more acute.] And I'm pretty sure you know all of this.
lucas April 27th, 2008, 11:01 AM

It wouldn't hurt for me to state that it is best, nay essential, to add the concentrated nitric acid solution to the concentrated
ethanol solution. Concentrated nitric can oxidise ethanol so quickly it can boil over nastily if ethanol is poured into it under the
wrong conditions.
It's analogous to adding concentrated acids to water and vice versa.
The only time I have witnessed immediate violence of this reaction was when ethanol, 90 - 95% was added to nitric acid, 70%.
The same batch of nitric and ethanol combined the other way were much better behaved.
al93535 November 17th, 2008, 01:40 AM

In my attempts to produce MF I found a few strange things.
I did 4 synthesis's, two of which failed and I obtained a white fluffy semi-sparkling powder, and two of which succeeded with low
yields.
I used commercial triple distilled Mercury, freshly distilled HNO3 that was diluted with distilled water, and a new bottle of
everclear.
The two times the batch failed I see from my notes that the mercury dissolved rapidly within 3 minutes. Also the mercury
nitrate acid solution sat for some time. The first time for about 3 hours, and the second about 12. Even with strong heating
the batch failed and I obtained the white powder, which I assume is either mercurous or mercuric nitrate.
I followed the same set up and procedure each time with only the above mentioned differences, except for slight differences in
amounts.
When I did get the proper reaction it proceeded exactly as Rosco's did above. A steady effervescence and a calm reaction.
Here is my latest batch:
3.6 grams mercury

25.2 ml HNO3 - 7.5 ml distilled H2O and 17.6 ml 95-99% HNO3.
Diluting the acid warmed it to 36 degrees. I chilled the acid to 15 degrees before adding the Hg.
1:30- adding the Hg to the acid.
1:40- Heated to 20 degrees to speed the dissolving of the mercury.
1:52- All Hg dissolved. 52.5 ml everclear heated to 55 degrees.

1:57- Hg nitrate/acid poured into alcohol.
2:00- Placed the beaker on the hotplate to help kickstart the reaction.
2:02- heavy dense white fumes noticed.
2:06- Steady light boiling and dense white fumes, more of an effervescence like Rosco mentioned. There is nothing violent
and no frothing at all. Solution turns grayish.
2:10- Tan precipitate accumulating at the bottom of the beaker. It seems like the crystals are the seeds for the boiling.
Solution clears up, and appears a very light tan.
2:26- Reaction stops.
I decanted, filtered washed and dried the MF. I got a yield of 47.9%, 2.45 grams of light tan product. This seems like a bad
yield, my first yield was 38%.
I would have thought a better yield was due after reading your guys comments about heating the vessel quickly, pre-warming
the reactants and using pure ethanol.
Does anyone have information of how to improve the yield? I suppose I can leave the beaker on the hotplate and try to drive
it hotter.
Also, does anyone have any ideas about the failed reactions, and what the white powder might be.
Picture of .5 grams of the MF http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=990&d=1226802359
al93535 November 23rd, 2008, 02:37 AM

I cannot edit my previous post, so I add another for a question.
I have searched and searched for incompatibilities with fulminate. The best I have found is:
http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/2020
It says nothing about aluminum. Seeing as how I am using aluminum for my caps I would like to know. It also states copper
is incompatible, yet Nobel used copper caps!
So does anyone have any reliable information about fulminates and metal incompatibilities? Specifically aluminum.
Lewis November 23rd, 2008, 06:10 PM

Any unreacted mercury in your fulminate will form an amalgam with the Al. May not be a problem if you use them soon
enough, but small amounts of Hg have been known to "eat through" large amounts of aluminum.
Probably won't have an effect on the stability of the explosive, but something to keep in mind regardless.
Alexires November 23rd, 2008, 09:08 PM

You could prevent this by using an excess of everything but Hg to try and ensure the reaction is pushed to the products side.
Otherwise just wrap the inside of the container with something inert (Gladwrap would do) to prevent contact.
Hinckleyforpresident November 23rd, 2008, 09:30 PM

Unreacted Hg (and many other contaminants) could be removed by recrystallization.
al93535 November 23rd, 2008, 09:41 PM

Yes, I did read about the mercury going though a lot of aluminum.
I would like them to be storage stable for at least 6 months. Perhaps I can coat the inside with a thin layer of NC lacquer or
some other varnish or lacquer.
I tried a drinking straw, but they were either slightly too small in diameter or way too large. I think a coating is the best way to
go.
I am going to order some 35% ammonia solution from a chem supplier as soon as I get my first order through. When I do
get some, I just might have to go that route Hinckley. Its always better to be safe, and have a pure product to boot.
FUTI November 25th, 2008, 02:37 PM

No NC lacquer won't work. Plastic film coated or lacquered tubes made of Al are usually tested for coating uniformity by pouring
mercury-chloride solution inside, and if that tube don't look good after some set time you don't wish to use that lot of tubes
for some purposes.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > nitrogentriiodide
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View Full Version : nitrogentriiodide
A_W April 27th, 2002, 03:53 PM

After 20 min. of searching, I can conclude that there are no topics on nitrogentriiodide except from perhaps the archives (please correct me if i`m wrong). I hope opening this
thread won`t get me banned.
I have recently taken interest to this explosive. Even though it has no use as an explosive, it makes a good chemistry demonstration. In my opinion, the manufacture and using
of this explosive is quite safe (no, I`m not kidding/crazy). At least the w ay I make it.
I use household strenght ammonia, wich is about 5%, and solid iodine. Using such a low strenght of ammonia, will make the explosive safer/less powerful. A very small amount
(point of a knife) of I2 is placed on a plastic plate. Enough ammonia to make it all wet is then poured over the iodine. The NI3 is then left on the plate, and not touched until it
is to be used. As this method does not recuire any filtering etc., it is quite safe, as long as nobody steps on it by accident while drying. To set it off, I use a broomstick. It makes
a cracking sound, and some nice, purple iodine vapour.
Has anyone any experience w ith this explosive? I have never dared to make this, until I thought of this simple and safe method.
Any comments?
nbk2000 April 27th, 2002, 03:59 PM

It's been discussed plenty of times before.
And you're posting it in the wrong section. This is a low explosive, not a high explosive.
Transferring to the appropriate section.
And do some searches on NI3, that'll get you some results.
A_W April 27th, 2002, 04:18 PM

Sorry if this has been discussed before. My searches ended up with no results.
About the HE/LE: I have also thought of this as a LE, until some guy (in the archives, discussing the VOD of NI3), said:
"I'd class NH3NI3 as a HE. It certainly does not deflagrate (no oxygen)! And from demonstrations I've seen, this stuff certainly is a lot more powerful than flash powder."
I figured this guy (CodeMason) knew alot more about explosives than me, hence I posted it in the HE, but you`re probably right NBK.

codemason is cool, and i think NI3 is a HE, it is an energetic chemcal compound, not a fuel oxidizer mix. but i think it should be in this section sience primarys are discussed
here. (well, its not realy a primary but it is not something that is set off with a blasting cap, and everything discussed in the HE section is)
edit: i just found a page that looks like it has some good info with experiances
<a href="http://yarchive.net/explosives/ni3.html" target="_blank"> http://yarchive.net/explosives/ni3.html</a>
[ April 27, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]
A_W April 27th, 2002, 05:12 PM

Great page! Thanks! That guy has some experiance w ith NI3!

Firstly, NI3*xNH3 is a high explosive. Secondly, there is no such thing as a "simple and safe" method of preparing NI3*xNH3. There are only less extremely unpredictable
methods.
VX April 29th, 2002, 05:10 AM

This was the first thing that I ever made, and the one I had least luck with. (probably because I was very young/ very kewl, and follow ing the instructions from the Jolly Roger
crapbook!!)
We made several 'pieces' of the stuff, and let it dry, we hit one of them with a brick to set it off, this set 3 of them off instead of the one as intended.
This left us with one piece left which my friend picked up and put in his pocket! He then w alked around for about half an hour (with no problems) but w hen he tried to get it out
of his pocket.... Pop, and fumes pouring from his jacket, which instantly turned his w hite school shirt dark brown.
The pieces were about 0.5 cm round, made with household ammonia and lab grade I2, (The friend of mine is a real friend). Apparently it didnt hurt him at all, although he was
in lots of trouble about the shirt! :D
A_W April 29th, 2002, 09:21 AM

What a smart guy who put NI3 in his pocket :D If it had been made w ith conc. lab grade ammonia, he probably would get into more trouble than a ruined shirt!
I really don`t see the danger in putting a small amount of iodine on a safe place that you`re sure that nobody w ill come near, pour some ammonia over it, and leaving it to dry.
You don`t come near it until your going to detonate it, w ich obviously is done with a long stick.
If it detonates before intended to; big deal. It is left to dry in the same place that you`re going to detonate it on anyway, so nothing more will happen than you have to make
the batch over again.
This method is, in my opinion, very simple and safe. Much safer than other explosives.

A lot of chem staff at colleges put NI3 on the pavement on busy days, people walk over it and w onder where the crackles and pops come from... :D
They consider it as harmless....

I made some NI3 with lemon-scented household ammonia, intending to wrap it in foil and throw it to set it off. I tested a small amount, and the only way i could get it to go off
was with a flame. Figuring that a larger amount would go off more easily, I wrapped the rest into a single ball (probably about 2-3 grams) of foil and took it oustide to throw
against my driveway. When I got outside, I noticed that the ball was getting war, so I dropped it and stepped back. A couple seconds later, it started hissing and a big cloud of
purplish smoke came out. Later, I realized that I hadn't w ashed the NI3, and excess ammonia had reacted with the Al, producing heat and setting off the NI3.
My next batch used clear ammonia. I made it and let it dry overnight. When I went to check on it, I flipped on the light in my basement and the entire batch exploded. This
stuff is ridiculously unpredictable, but it's fun as long as you don't make too much.
Mick April 29th, 2002, 08:25 PM

when i was in school (i think it was in year 7?..) someone found out about nitrogentriiodie off the net.
he gave the instructions to someone else, and they made it.
one of the boys left the NI3 in his bedroom closet to dry - in the midddle of the night it went off. the other boy left it under his bed and his mum reached under there next day
and removed the ends of her fingers.
personaly, this shit is more unstable, and more unpredictable then AP.
i w ouldn't make it even in you paid me.
BrAiNFeVeR April 30th, 2002, 01:59 PM
AP (or HMTD) doesn't even comes near the sensitivity of NI3 !!
Never make it in quantities over 1 gram !!! (unless of course you have a death w ish)
megalomania April 30th, 2002, 04:48 PM

This stuff definately fits in the catagory of a primary explosive in the common sence definition that we use at The Forum, and hence belongs in this section. Indeed this
substance is made for undergraduate demonstrations in general chemistry labs at many universities. On my website I have some pictures of the demonstration in question: The
product is allow ed to dry on filter paper and it is later detonated by touching with a feather. The explosive is safer (not, it should be noted, safe) when spread out into a thin
layer. If done as a demonstration of explosives as suggested on my w ebsite, it can be quite enjoyable, but nothing more.
<a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/nitrogen_triiodide.html" target="_blank"> Nitrogen triiodide synthesis at Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab< /a>
[ April 30, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: megalomania ]
Winston Bailey January 17th, 2008, 04:32 AM

This was the second explosive I ever made (after AP). A very un-intelligent decision on my part :rolleyes:, although I opted to anyw ays because of the ease of the synth. I
aqquired ~5 grams of Iodine crystals and bought a gallon of Ammonia (previously) for $.97 at the local super market (Fry's in my case).
I then proceeded to pour the I2 in a small mason jar (approximately 400 ml) and adequately cover them in the Ammonia. After a few seconds, the Ammonia had streaks of I2
die (sort of like food coloring dropped in water) in it w hich quickly advanced to become a deep dark purple colour.
After shaking for a good 20 sec. I set it in the fridge (for no particular reason other than to keep my parents from dumping it dow n the drain or asking w hat i w as up to?? I am
only 17 and still live at home.) For the next hour or so I w atched Mythbusters (Nitro-Cellulose episode, so i had forgotten all about my little endeavor :rolleyes:.)
After the show , I took the mason jar out of the fridge and grabbed 2 coffee filters. I filtered the solution with three red party cups. Two had the bottoms cut out (not off) and
the third w as left normal. I made a funnel out of them and placed it around the first cup with the bottom cut out and slid the second one of similar fasion around the first cup to
secure the filter in place.
The third cup w as set on my kitchen bar on a paper towel. I used two square chopsticks on top (spread the width of the bottom of the first and second cup) to hold over the the
cup. Filtered the liquid, keeping the filtrate, and placed the dark purple coloured crystals on some napkins.
I let this dry for approximately 10 mins when i decided it was time to straighten up the kitchen. It was three in the morning and I didn't want the parentals coming out to a mess
of plastic, ammonia, and iodine stains everyw here.
I took the knife i had used to spread the crystals evenly over the coffee filter and started cleaning it off. The crystals werent very dry but none the less it wasn't a smart choice.
While I was w iping the crystals off the knife....BOOOM!.....Oh Shit, :eek:!!!
I thought for shure the parents were going to come out trippin. Oddly enought they did no such thing, so I decided it was best to clean everything up in a hurry in case they
decided to. Obviously by this point I had taken the napkins with the NI3 on them and placed them on the ground out back.
When I started wiping my bar down, hundreds of little "snaps" started making themselves appearent. VERY LONG story short, the bigger bang earlier threw the stuff all over the
kitchen floor. When I finished cleaning the kitchen I took the filtrate w hich I had not yet discarded out back with me and re-wet the NI3.
I took 15 gel-capsules emptied them and filled them with *w et* crystals put them back together and let them all sit in a medicine bottle out back in my shed overnight.
The next morning when my two friends came over, I thought it w ould be funny to show this shit to them so i went and grabbed the container, and taped it to a yard stick. I
carefully took the lid of as to fling contents out into the streen over my fence.
Un beknow nce to me at the time, my neighbor w as out front (he is mormon). I went to throw the shit out and *accidentally* hit my gate (metal) and got a VERY loud report
along with a huge cloud of I2 vapour.
When I had w alked out front to inspect the damage, my neighbor looked at me with one of the priceless startled looks on his face, then proceeded to ask,..."Blowin stuff up
again, huh" :cool:??
Sorry this w as soo long, just thought it would be nice to read, as I enjoy reading stories. There w asn't any detailed accounts of personal expieriences in this thread.
CHEERS
Ratman2050 January 30th, 2008, 10:15 PM

Nice story, if it were my neighbor I would have gotten into trouble.
You know as I've seen many incidents, the explosive either explodes or it doesn't. For ex. I hit AP w ith a spoon but it didn't det, but when it fell it did.
In this thread someone mentioned NI3 in his pcoket for 30 min and it didn't det., but when he touched it with his fingers, it did...which is very peculiar.
So primaries are a cornucopia of interesting incidents and cases of premature and/or dud detonations. Even though you may be able to hit NI3 and it won't det, maybe another
time you may whisper and the sound wave w ill set it off. All in all, we should always treat any explosive with respect, as only God knows w hat will be our fate.
Charles Owlen Picket January 31st, 2008, 09:21 AM

It may have exploded from touch due to very minor static electric shock; so small as to not notice but enough to supply the need stimulus. Actually this could be VERY good
training if done on a small scale. It TEACHES the issues of static electric initiation, impact stimulation, etc.
TTBoMK the material IS a true primary in the sense that it can initiate secondaries at large enough levels (suicidal shit; true enough)....I know it had no problems initiating
imported number one dynamite (nitroglycol and ammonium nitrate).
What w ith iodine being a List One material now I suppose it won't be used that often but personally I think it's damn useful on a lot of levels. One of the biggest issues with flash
and TATP is the static [accidental] initiation. If people can learn that from iodine and ground themselves out of habit.....so much the better.
Winston Bailey January 31st, 2008, 02:49 PM

Sorry to state something a bit off topic, but when dealing with primaries or flash I usually wear special gloves that won't allow static discharge. I have them mainly for making
det. boxes(to prevent accidental shock).
That is a good idea. My expirience with NI3 taught me alot about incidents that can unknowingly uprise. Since, I have not made the stuff, but in any case the mess was worth
scaring the piss out of my friends. Not worth losing my fingers or the use of them =]]. So an un-needed word of warning goes out w hen dealing with NI3, not so much for the
sensitivity of it, but on the other hand, the couple hundred little pops it w ill give you or other situations in the like.
CHEERS
Charles Owlen Picket February 1st, 2008, 10:19 AM

When I was an undergrad I used to live in a dorm; I hated it but I had to in my freshman and 1st part of sophomore year as I had zero money. One thing I had a lot of fun with
was putting this [material to dry] in a key hole. A tiny bit (seriously TINY) produced a really funny phenomenon (use level w as in the milligram amount). It crackled like
electricity and the idiots w ho wondered, stupefied that they got shocked from their key, w as priceless.
Hyper sensitive explosives like this one have limited practical use outside of jokes & demonstrations. Silver fulminate is another. I found that I could dope it with flour or starch
to the point of being able to work with it to a very limited degree. But importantly it teaches that the limits of w hatever energy initiation for a material can be so minute that the
need to search for any available energy input is needed. This is a -=VERY=- valuable lesson.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Powerful oxidiziers and reducing agents
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View Full Version : Powerful oxidiziers and reducing agents

Has anyone tried to work with Oxidizers like H2SO5, N2O5, CrO3, CrO2, Chromyl Chloride, Peroxychromates, KO2 etc.
And reducing agents like ... N2S4, CS2, Pot. Polysulfide, AlH3, Ni(CO)4, and Cr(CO)6 etc.
If anyone has any experiences reguarding their prep and/or oxidizing/reducing capabilities ... I w ould really appreciate some feedback.
------------------

I have been experimenting for some time with CrO3, CrO2Cl2 and related stuff...
Made a few posts on it in \misc\CrO3.

N2S4 - that's a primary, isn't it?
Well there's a thread on how to make metal peroxides, and I think CrO3 has been covered, and H2SO5 has been mentioned but not much detailed information came up IIRC.
Isn't there a phosphorous sesquisulphide? I bet that could be fun, but it's possible that I've gone mad and made it up, I can't remember.

Thanx .. I'll check those posts out and I have heard of Phosphorus sesquisulfite (I just can't remember where). Anyw ays do they have any special oxidizing or reducing
properties that they can't be treated as potentially high explosive ?
------------------

Phosphorus sesquisulfide is used in strike-anywhere matches. Nitrogen sulfide is a dense, oily liquid that is comparable to NI3 in instability. See the thread
somew here in Low Explosives on "yellow pow der" or "fulminating pow der" for some interesting info on the reaction of KNO3 with potassium polysulfide.
FadeToBlackened August 25th, 2001, 09:45 PM

Ive always read of N2S4 to be reddish brown crystals..
cutefix August 26th, 2001, 06:56 AM

I remember,think I tried a few times to use P2O5 to make N2O5 from nitric acid.and it w as a better nitrating agent than nitric acid.Although the reactions require intensive cooling
because of much exotherm .In my first experim ent.I broke one reaction ves sel due to this,and splas hed the corrosive mixture which corroded some parts of the floor.and the bench .I
think it happened because of overconfidence,thinking it was similar to using normal fuming nitric acid...
Berserker August 26th, 2001, 10:04 AM

I think N 2S4 is a liquid, and N4S4 is the red solid you're talking of.
the freshmaker August 26th, 2001, 04:16 PM

Isn't Potassium Persulfate also a oxidiser? Does anyone know how powerfull an oxidant this is? I can easily buy this chemical in my pharmacy.

What's the persulfate used for in the pharmacy ?
I know that peroxysulfuric acid is formed w hen H2SO4 (conc.) is mixed w ith H2O2.
------------------

A mixture of 2 parts N2O4 with 1 part N2S4 should make a very pow erful explosive.
and also w ith CS2.
------------------
Disturbed August 27th, 2001, 02:22 AM

hey all.. on the subject of peroxysulfuric acid, have any of you had any success making this? I tried once, w orked out the correct ratios for my concentrations of acid and H2O2..
it heated up a lot, and did about nothing. The only notable thing is that w hen i dumped it out on the road in disgust, I noticed a day later that there were lots of small white
crystals left on the asphalt. What those might be, I have no idea!
------------------
== ==
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit
the freshmaker August 27th, 2001, 11:58 AM

Ezikiel; it's actually not a real pharmacy, but I think it is called a Material Shop.
I don't know w hat is is being used for, but I can check it on the label next time I see it. It think I'll buy some tomorrow and check out if it can be used as an oxidant.

Ezi: I assume for the same thing you'd w ant to use potassium permanganate for... disinfectant, antisceptic and fungicide. I also know potassium perborate is a common
ingedient in crystalline bleach.
the freshmaker August 28th, 2001, 12:33 PM

Today I went to the Material Shop- and I'm sorry it wasn't potassium persulfate as I said but potassium perborate. The perborate had also a warning label saying; "Oxidiser"
Can This be used to something- how pow erfull is this oxidant?

I think perborates are oxidising like chlorites etc - they don't support combustion very well, but they do "oxidise" things, in other words they lose electrons (or is it gain? I can
never remember!) in reactions. Not sure though..

i think its lose electrons because the other meaning of oxidise is addition of oxygen. so if you have 2Ca + O2 ----> 2CaO so the Ca has lost electrons to the O. well thats w hat i
think. probably wrong knowing my luck.

Ca 2+ + O 2- = CaO, therefore the calcium ion is being oxidised and is gaining tw o electrons...
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited August 30, 2001).]

whoops...
Ezikiel August 31st, 2001, 02:04 AM

Guys .... Leo the lion says Ger (LEO-GER)
Loss of e- is oxidation and Gain of e- is reduction.
Or try OIL RIG (oxidation is loss of e- and redution is gain of e-)
and Pot. perborate Oxidizing proberties SUCK.
Its a mild disinfectant.
------------------

N4S4 is a solid red compound sensitive to shock, friction and flame with a VOD of about 5200m/s....not a liquid.Made via reaction between SCl2 and NH3!
Nothing to do with Fulminating powder(KNO3/K2CO3/S mix).
You make me http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif "N4S4 is a yellow liquid while N4S4 is a red solid"....Isn't white, w hite? huhuhu
------------------
"Chemistry is all w hat stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

Anyone know if "oxacilic acid" is usefull for anything other than bleaching furniture?
------------------
All 10 fingers present.
tvs17 September 18th, 2001, 02:57 AM

Does this question belong in this thread really?
I've had a look in the Merck index for the "oxacilic acid" you describe. But it w as not listed. Don't you mean OXALIC acid, (COOH)2? This is also used for bleaching things I
thought.
Well, you could make oxalates from metals like lead or silver from it. They posses energetic properties. Not very strong though, but nice to try anyway.

Yeah, heavy metal salts of oxalic acid are very weak but explosive nonetheless. A large enough clump w ould probably initiate your more sensitive secondaries. However, w ood
bleaching oxalic acid is 3% solution, I doubt you could make any salts with that!
MANY WOOD BLEACHING KITS (the two solution kind) CONTAIN 30% H2O2 .

Well, you could probably use the 3% (COOH)2 solution since Pb and Ag oxalate are only very slitely soluble in H2O. And you'll have to use quite large quantities of the stuff to
obtain some of the oxalate. So better evaporate some w ater before using it.

But another thing, I already asked it in the Misc. forum. Does anyone know if pernitric acid(HO-O-NO2) can be synthesized in the lab and w hich properties it should have. I only
found that this chemical is formed high in the atmosphere by reactions with all kinds of oxygen radicals.

I know: HO2 (hydroperoxyl radical) + NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) -> HO 2NO 2 (pernitric acid)
NO 2 is produced as a byproduct of some important organic reactions, so salvaging it would kill tw o birds with one stone. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
smilies/wink.gif The hydroperoxyl radical is a bit more tricky, I think it could be made by hydrogen peroxide and UV light perhaps?
Or maybe a much simpler reaction of hydrogen peroxide on nitric acid (H2 O 2 + HONO2 -> HO 2NO 2 +
H2O) w ould work, although I doubt it, and then there's still the problem about getting the water out at the end (distilling things such as pernitric is asking for
trouble)

Yes! One of the reactions of the formation of HO2NO2 is via the HO2 radical you name. There are some other radicals that also react with the NO2 to form HO2NO2 but these
are even more unstable than the HO2.
But I can't find any info on these compounds on practical level(only environnmental shit). So if someone has a reference or something?
That is the problem, this is reaction w ith H2O2 and some others is so extremely risky.. And I'm not going to try things which are only speculative and with NO background info at
all.

I've heard this "thermite" mix of CuO and Al should have a quite fast burnrate? How fast is it really- It is not like these "dragon eggs" mixes of Pb or Wi-oxides, are they? They
explodes w ithout any confinement even in very small portions!
------------------
good boy w ith bad ideas
Mr Cool September 24th, 2001, 04:16 PM

Cu is lower on the reactivity scale than Pb, so CuO should be better than PbO. But those "Dragon's Eggs" use Mg or MgAl, or even zirconium, so with normal Al it would be
slower.
But CuO/Al is fast burning - it gets about as fast as BP; it's drawback is that it produces no permanent gas.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > The Great Hydrgen Salute Can Cannon
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View Full Version : The Great Hydrgen Salute Can Cannon
mark June 8th, 2001, 12:26 AM

Atlast, I've found som ething fun to do with hydrogen. Simply flling balloons and lighting them is pretty borring, so I have
created this device. In short, its how you an m a k e a t r e m e n d o u s b a n g w i t h h y d r o g e n .
m aterials:
2 empty 1 gallon paint cans
1/16" wide nail
T o m atoe sauce jar, bigger the better
1/16" wide electrical wire
Hydrogen gas chemicals
Procedure:
T a k e o n e o f t h e p a i n t c a n s a n d p o k e a h o l e t h r o u g h t h e b o t t o m and top of the can with the nail. Youve now built th e c a n n o n .
Now to build the filling aperatus. Cut a foot of the wire and seperate the sheeth from the wire. Congratulations, you now have a
very thin hose. Now, poke a hole throu gh the m etal lid of the tom atoe sauce jar. Put a 1/2" of the hose through the lid. Hot
glue t h e h o s e i n p l a c e t o m a k e an air tight sea l. You have now built the filling aperatus.
Filling:
T h r e a d t h e h ose through one of the holes in th e paint can. Cover the other hole with electrical tape. Now fill the jar up 1/4 of
the way with water. Fill the other paintcan half way with water. Place jar in can. Add a tablespoon of lye to the jar and stir until
dissolved. You should be wearing gloves and goggles for this. Rip a foot and a half long piece of alluminum foil in half and
m ake 2 pellets. Drop in the pellets and screw the can onto the jar as quick as possible. Allow five minites to fill.
Firing:
R e m ove can from filling aperatus. Place can on top of 2 bricks. Make sure there is a space between the bricks and have the
hole o v e r t h i s s p a c e . R e m o v e t a p e f r o m other hole. Light touch hole abo ve the can. If all goes well, a lantern flam e will be
produced and will burn for several m inites. As the flame is burning off the hydrogen on top, air will be m ixing in through the
bottom . W hen the hydrogen reaces its flash po int in the can, the device goes off with a trem e n d o u s b o o m . W ith this device
you can mak e defening noise for pennies.
Ill post m ore info later.
c0deblue June 8th, 2001, 01:31 AM

This isn't intended as a put-down, but this device could be VERY dangero us. The explosive lim its o f Hydrogen are between 4 %
a n d 7 5 % - t h e b r o a d e s t r a n g e o f a l m o s t a n y g a s . U n l e s s t h e p a int can is C OMPLETELY filled with Hydrogen (with ALL the air
displaced), there's a better than even chance the gas m ixture in the can will be within the explosive limit when lit, and could
blow up im mediately.
Exploding cans are unpredictable - in some cases they only rupture or pop their tops, but in other cases they produce razor
sharp shrapnel.
"If all goes well" is pretty slim assurance that severe pe rsonal in jury wouldn't result from lighting the tube on a device like this.
Figure out a way to activate it from a safe dista nce and you m i g h t h a v e a f u n n o i s e m aker. And use polyeth ylene m ilk
containers or plastic bags - anything but m etal.
Play safe!
[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited June 08, 2001).]
mrloud June 8th, 2001, 12:08 PM

T h i s s a m e e x p e r i m ent was de monstrated at a local university during an open day chem istry show. They did not use a paint
can. Instead, the device containing the hydrogen was a cylinder m a d e f r o m c o p p e r . O n e e nd of the cylinder was sealed off with
a lid that form ed an apex. It looked a bit like some grain silos seen in the country side. At the point of the a p e x w a s a s m a l l
hole . The other end of the cylinder was open.
The device was suspended with wires a bove the bench top with the cone pointing up. The hole in the top was plugged with Blu
Tack. The cylinder was filled with hydro gen from a t a n k . T h e m a i n h y d r o g e n t a n k w a s r e m o v e d f r o m the proximity.
All o f t h e a b o v e h a p p e n e d b e f o r e t h e a u d i e n c e entered. During the show som eone removed the Blu Tack and lit the flow of
hydrogen escaping from the top of the cone. After a m i n u t e o r s o t h e r e w a s a h u g e B O O M t h a t c a u s e d t h e 5 0 0 p e o p l e i n t h e
auditorium to jum p out of their skins. The copper cylinder hardly jumped at all.
T h e y a l s o d e m o n s t r a t e d a s m all balloon containing oxygen and acetylene being ignited. It was m uch louder.
mark June 10th, 2001, 05:13 PM

Ive had the can explode as soon as I lit it. It was very loud, but no harm was done. If you are concerned about shrapnell, then
use a pringles can. It has a m etal bottom,but the rest is cardboard.
Also, instad of using wire as the hose, use the hose inside of an aim n flam e. Its m uch better.
mark July 15th, 20 01, 06:1 9 PM

Get out of my thread!
-Colza- July 26th, 20 01, 05:0 7 AM

W e did a sim ilar thing in 4th form science.
SafetyLast August 5th, 2001, 12:48 AM
Mark, would vinyl aqu arium tubing work instead of 1/16" wire sheath? the interior diam eter is 1/8" is that too wide?
this is an extrem ely easy and cheap device to construct.
I l i k e c 0 d e b l u e ' s i d e a of activating it from a safe distance (i'll think of som ething, im dete rm ined to complicate this sim ple
device)
I m ight even aquire some calcium carbide so that the can canno n ignites acetylene
(or would that be too powerfull and destroy it?)
mark A ugus t 6t h, 2001, 06: 20 PM

Acetlyne works better, but takes longer to go off. As for hosing, it needs to be thin. The plastic hose from the inside of a aim
nflam e works perfectley.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > detonators
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View Full Version : detonators
anarkisten_83 August 30th, 2001, 05:32 AM

Hi, i was just wondering if i could fill a cratermaker with AP, Would that det. ANFO? Or do i need a booster charge, (Would a AP cm det. any ammonium explosive? I know i can
det ANNM)
berg August 30th, 2001, 05:42 AM

Hi,
for starters, wrong section.
did you know AP reacts with some metals, it causes heat which sometimes can lead to detonantion. a while back somone (forgot who it was) blew a nice chunk out of thier leg
with an AP filled cratermaker which he had in his pocket.
as regards to detonating ANFO with a cratermaker i'm sure you need a booster det to detonate it, as ANFO is a sleepy explosive.
- berg
[This message has been edited by berg (edited August 30, 2001).]

anarkisten?...is that anarchist in anohter language by any chance? AP is ok with metals but HMTD is not. i think if you are going to use ANFO you should use an ANNM charge to
set it off. also it will help if the ANFO is strongly confined to lower the chances of a partial detonation.
mr.evil August 30th, 2001, 10:30 AM

hai,
if there is an problem with detonating ANFO, why don't you use ANNM?
its much easyer to detonate AND much stronger.
but if you want to;

you can mix the ANFO with AL powder to increase the sensitivity.
and detonate it with HMTD or so.
but if you can its MUCH better to create a booster of RDX.
greetz from;
Evil...
madog August 30th, 2001, 11:32 AM

the guy who blew a chunk of his leg out was using an HMTD cratermaker. not AP. AP is perfectly fine with metals. HMTD definatly is not.
------------------
"True freedom is not without anarchy"

Low Explosives is the correct section for detonators.
A 12gm CO2 cratridge only holds about 5gm of AP or HMTD, which I doubt is enough to detonate ANFO. Also the AP or HMTD wouldn't be pressed so the VoD would be quite
low, further lessening the chance of it detonating the ANFO.
An ANNM booster is a good idea.

low explosives?...why is that the section? i thought it would be high explosives since it actually detonates not just diflagrates. now i'm confused...

The way I think of it is like this: LE section includes LE's and ignitors, and a detonator is like an ignitor for HE's... so if you want to know how to make detonators, this is the
section. But primaries are high explosives, so if you want to know how to synthesise primaries you go to HE. That's just how I organise my posts...

Perhaps a filmcanister of pressed ap? If that wont set it off, well, gosh.
megalomania August 31st, 2001, 12:29 AM

I have lumped primaries in this section in the interests of brevity. It is also a generalization that detonators are not, strictly speaking, high explosives, therefore everything else
gets put here. In time I may give detonators a section of their own, but for now lets continue to concentrate on just explosives.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > G a s l e s s T i m e D e l a y Fuse
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View Full Version : Gasless Time Delay Fuse
10fingers August 31st, 2001, 10:20 PM

The following com positions m a y b e u s e f u l f o r t i m e d e l a y f u s e s s u c h a s u s e d i n h a n d g r e n a d e s , e t c .
"The preferred com bustible co mpositio n is composed of zirconium m etal powder(Zr) and not more than a stoichiometric
a m ount of powdered barium chrom ate(BaCrO). This composition readily ignites at low tem perature s and the burning rate m a y
be adjusted by varyin g the proportions of zirconium and barium c h r o m a t e . A s u i t a b l e c o m p o s i t i o n h a v i n g a m o d e r a t e b u r n i n g
rate contains 18.5% Zr and 81.5% barium chrom ate. A m ixture of zirconium m e t a l p o w d e r ( - 2 0 0 m e s h ) a n d powdered iron
o x i d e in stoichiom etric proportions(43.5% Zr, 51.5%Fe2 O3) with 5% by weight of diatom a c e o u s e a r t h a s a d i l u e n t e x h i b i t s f a s t
propagation of com bustion.
Another composition is compo sed of, by weight, 22% nickel powder, 5% zirconium powder, 16.8% potassium perchlorate and
56.2% barium chrom ate. This composition ignites at low tem perature and the relative percentages of the four comp o n e n t s
m ay be varied over a wide range to give various burning rates. The com position just stated after being com p r e s s e d a t 1 2 , 0 0 0
psi burns at a rate of 0.1 inch per second, or a burning tim e of 10 seconds per inch".
Agent Blak S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 03:20 PM

W here do you get powdered Ziconium from and how expensive is it? Have you tried this yourself yet?
------------------
"...T here Will Be No
Stand O ff At High Noon
... Shoot'em I n T h e B a c k
And, Shoot'em I n T h e D a r k "
10fingers S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 05:20 PM

You can get Zirconium powder from Skylighter, $20.00 per 1/4 lb. It's a bit expen sive. I am going to be ordering so me stuff
from them soon so I might give it a try. I'm qu ite sure that these compo sitions work since the info is from a U.S. patent.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited 11-17-2001).]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Best Aluminum for Flash?
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CyclonitePyro May 2nd, 2002, 06:37 PM

-Aluminum - atomized, 2 micron APS
-Aluminum - German Black, Flash Blend (2 micron AFA)
-Aluminum - German Black, ground flake (2 micron)
-Aluminum - German black, flake - 5413H Super
These four are from firefox, I'm wondering which would be the best for flash, if there is much of a difference. I don't think the
atomized would be any good though. I'm wondering if anyone here has used any of these, maybe someone who has a
pyrotechnics job.
They are freaking expensive though, and if there isn't much of a difference between these and reg. 400 mesh then why
should I even bother.
Wicked May 2nd, 2002, 07:14 PM

I dont really think in flash powder it would make any diffrence. Since all your wanting is a flash, and not a bang, it doesnt
apear to me as to make a diffrence. But, I may be wrong. Have you tryed experimenting? :p

Flash not used to make a boom!? :confused:
What else? Well, maybe theatrical flash. But 99% of flash used in the world is for making booms and I want good booms for
happy customers, I don't want to sell AP putty salutes.
I should have been more specific, and I emailed firefox, we'll see what they have to say. I'd still like to here from you though.
Wicked May 2nd, 2002, 07:38 PM

It would only make a diffrence in large ammounts, I think. And I figured you were looking for the largest flash, Asin
temporaraly blindness. Anywaysss, I'd just get a shotgun shell or two. :) You might wanna talk to someone else though, it's
just an opinion/educated guess. :) ttys.
krimmie May 2nd, 2002, 10:27 PM

The German Black ground flake 2 micron would be my choice out of those choices. I wouldn't even dream on mixing this Al
with KCLO4 in a 3:7 ratio...but if I did, I'd consider this product from Skylighter:
CH0144
(109)
Aluminum, flake, dark, Indian Blackhead
8 micron, coated
A much darker aluminum than German Blackhead. Reputedly made with the same process and equipment used to make
Blackhead in Germany in the 1950's. Performance compares very favorably. Limit of one pound of dark aluminum per order,
two pounds per year unless you send us a copy of your current BATF High Explosives Manufacturing license (type 20).
USA Shipments Only, Cannot Be Exported

lb. $20.95
I can't(nor can my neighbors) tell the differnce between the German and the Indian. I have dreamed that they both react
quite well together. You could use the -400 mesh Al, but you get what you pay for as far as Al is concerned.
You also might want to check with e-bay....I bought 1 lb. of the Indian Blackhead last month through their auctions and was
VERY pleased with the product.
I just checked out e-bay and found the following items; cut and paste the url's.
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1725216167http://cgi.ebay.com/" target="_blank">http://

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1725216167http://cgi.ebay.com/</a>
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[ May 02, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: krimmie ]

The KCLO4 auction looked good until I spotted the $11.00 shipping :mad: , preset shipping prices shouldn't be allowed.
What does AFA stand for?
J May 3rd, 2002, 05:01 AM

I'd go for the German Black Flake. It probably doesn't matter what you get out of that list, they'll all work brilliantly. Whatever
you do, don't buy spherical, since it won't work in most flash comps.
Arkangel May 3rd, 2002, 06:34 AM
I recently got a couple of kilos of Al powder from a GRP supply company, not so much for flash, but for mixing a small amount
in with BP rocket propellant. It's a fine grey powder, almost as fine as flour. It doesn't seem very enthusiastic though, and I'd
assumed from the light grey colour that was because a large proportion of it was oxidised.
You mention the spherical Al J, is this a possible reason for my stuff being hard to burn? As I mentioned, the powder is really
quite fine. If it's structure is the issue, might sticking it in a coffee grinder for a few minutes be helpful in changing it's
structure, or just a red herring?
0EZ0 May 3rd, 2002, 08:29 AM

Well if you had the chance of getting cheap spherical Al powder, then I would buy it. Stick it in a ball mill for a bit and end up
with something resembling flake Al.
Edit: Of course it would not be the same As German Dark, but good for flash?
[ May 03, 2002, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
J May 3rd, 2002, 08:37 AM

Assuming it's for mixing with resin, that Al is spherical and around 300 mesh. This is the reason it's no good for flash, apart
from certain comps (see my website). Grinding it in the blender won't produce flake, unless perhaps you grind it for a few
weeks. I've heard of people milling it with Steel balls to flatten the particles, but I haven't tried that.
CyclonitePyro May 3rd, 2002, 07:56 PM

Ok, firefox emailed me this:
Listed according to combustion rate:

C104, C104/HS, C103GBB, German dark 400m (C104/HS & C103GBB about the same rate)
C104, made in India (German process)
C104/HS made in Germany
C103GBB is blended by Firefox using C104 and other flake aluminum.
So here is what firefox meant:

So that means: (listed in order best to worst)
#1 Aluminum - German Black, ground flake (2 micron) HOT!! - Stock #C104 - FS
#2 Aluminum - German black, flake - 5413H Super - Stock #C104/HS - FS
#3Aluminum - German Black, Flash Blend (2 micron AFA) - Stock #C103GBB - FS
#4Aluminum - German dark, flake -400 mesh (12 micron AFA) - Stock #C103GD - FS
(#'s 2 and 3 are are about the same)
So I'm gonna get me some German Black, ground flake (2 micron)aluminum, and use a 30/70 ratio with KClO4, which I'll buy
and ball mill myself.
Case solved. :)
inferno May 6th, 2002, 09:38 AM

Uhhh, youre gonna ball bill KClO4 and Al? Sure, if you dont mind losing a hand...or your eyes or face...
Anthony May 6th, 2002, 11:48 AM

I think he means milling the KClO4 :)
EventHorizon May 6th, 2002, 08:10 PM

I got some 3 micron stuff from Skyligher and it works GREAT with KClO4. Tho I can't complain about the 4 micron
cheapo stuff I got either. Only a 'little' difference in the report.
MacCleod May 18th, 2002, 01:16 AM

CyclonitePyro,'AFA' stands for 'as fine as'.
CyclonitePyro May 18th, 2002, 01:41 PM

Thanks MacCleod, I geuss when that is behind a brand, it means some of the particles are as fine as (X size).
krimmie May 18th, 2002, 11:32 PM

A reason I suggested an auction for Al, over an internet company like Skylighter, is that you are not required to provide a
signed agreement along with a copy of your drivers license. This is no big deal for me...but might be for some! I haven't
ordered from any pyro company except Skylighter, but I do know Skylighter demands an order of at least $30.00. This is not
convenient when(for example) I only need 1 lb. of Ba(NO3)2.
MacCleod May 19th, 2002, 03:08 PM

It's been a while since i've ordered from Pyrotek,can't remember if they required an i.d. or not.But I do believe they didn't
have qty. restrictions on things like alum. and mag. powder.They're one of the more expensive companies,though.
mark May 22nd, 2002, 10:17 PM

What would be a better aluminum for flash, 425 mesh flake or american dark? Thanks

The American dark is 13 microns,(at least at firefox), and that is much smaller than 425 mesh, so the American dark is far
superior due to its smaller particle size.
mark May 22nd, 2002, 11:44 PM

But I am purchasing from pyrotek and they charge more for the flake. Should I still get the American?
MacCleod May 23rd, 2002, 03:18 AM

I'd say the american dark would be your best bet,for the money.There's no particle size listed for it (at pyrotek),but it is listed
as 'dark pyro aluminum' in the hot chem. specials section;it might not be a bad idea to try to contact them and find out what it
is before ordering (It's hard as hell to get someone to answer the phone there!).
I've used both the 425 m. bright and german dark,and the dark works best.I've seen salutes made with the bright stuff that
burst open,leaving behind unburned flash,but I have yet to see this happen with the dark powders.

How many mesh would airfloat Al be? If I only open my bag with Al a fine cloud disperses and 24 hours later everything is
covered with Al powder.
endotherm June 11th, 2002, 10:52 PM

When using black aluminums, does anyone know what kind of a difference 8 micron/3 micron aluminum would make with a
standard perchlorate flash?

I've tried all the diff al powders over a 25 year period. I generally by the bright flake for flash. cause it is less expensive. the
dark al powders are genraly less messy than brights though. As far as report,it depends on the formulas you use. I have
gotten reports just as loud with 325 bright as I have with 3 micron..simply by modifieng the formula a little.stadard 70/30
works well for all..however 66/33 works well for the larger mesh sizes. I used to buy 100 mesh paint grade al years ago. It
looked dull grey and was almost impossible to light with a fuse or match..but it gave a nice thump when confined in a triangle
type cracker(course matchheads will work in those)with perclorate ,sulpher or just perclorate. It's a matter of tastes when it
comes to the type of al you get. but flake is the best in my opion as long as it as 100 mesh at least
tom haggen December 12th, 2003, 11:25 PM

Does anyone have any incite on aluminum maufacturing? I've done my fair share of reading on this site now. I haven't seen
what series of aluminum your high quality pryophoric flash powders originate from. I suppose that material numbering
systems vary from country to country. Here in america our aircraft aluminum is labeled as a 7000 series, and some heavier
types are the 6000 series. I have expiremented with the 6000 series, my result for making flash powder from this type sucked
cock. The best results so far have came from a bar of aluminum that was connected to a magnesium strip called a fire starter
(for camping). Aluminum powder from aluminum foil seems to be promising but that easy aluminum thread sucks. I'm
convinced a tumbler would be the way to go. Also could someone point me in the right direction toward a thread that might
information on binding your flash powder together. I'm still kind of in the dark on that subject.
-tom
b2sai December 16th, 2003, 01:28 AM

If i use like very very small amounts of chemicals for flash, would i be able to get some reactions thats relatively safe for the
classroom when i do the experiment?
scarletmanuka December 16th, 2003, 09:23 PM

Tom - Don't knock the Al-foil method unless you have tried it. And with the firestarter, it is infact a bar of magnesium attached
to a strip of flint. That is why it works so well, because you are using pure magnesium.
b2sai- a quarter of a gram electronically ignited unconfined would be relatively safe and impressive. But I would forget about it
myself. It always pays to ensure that you don't attract unwarranted attention at school. The chem teacher realises you play
around with pyro, and the next time something goes missing from the lab, your ass is at the principal's office.
Mumble December 17th, 2003, 12:33 AM

I have done the mill method several times and I am very happy with the results. Don't go bad mouthing the Blender method
though. It offers a way to get Al with seems to be on par with mine, if not better due to the lack of oxidation. Not only on par,
but in an hour or so, compared to the weeks it takes for the ball mill.
Scarletmanuka - Even if you do get sent to the principal's office doesn't mean they can do anything. They might ask you if you
took it, but unless they find it or have video of you taking it they really wont be able to do anything. Besides you get out of
about an hour of class. It's been my experience that those who do enjoy the fine art of pyro(aka me) steals far less(nothing)
than others. A good portion of the school equiptment is currently being used for bongs and shot glasses at parties. I've
witnessed both of these.
Tom - why would you want to bind your flash? One of the reasons it burns so fast is that is is fairly fluffy and has plenty of air
between particles. This allows for a much faster flame propogation. If you must bind there are plenty of binders to choose
from. I might try dextrin or Red gum.
tom haggen December 17th, 2003, 03:16 PM
well the flash i keep making, keeps leaving behind a black clump of oxidizer that doesn't seem to decompose. I guess i'm
just curious if binding would help.
Bert December 17th, 2003, 09:43 PM

tom haggen-
Flash Al should be PURE Al. 6000 & 7000 series ALLOYS contain varying amounts of Al, Mg, Si, Zinc, Copper and Chrome. The
purpose of these additives is to make the metal harder and more durable- Which translates to more difficult to make into a
fine metal powder. Al foil is quite pure Al. It needs to be to be easily rolled so thin. The guys trying to make pyro grade Al
powder from commercial foils are on the right track, materials wise at least.
If you want an Al/Mg alloy, try 50% Al : 50% Mg cast into a chilled Iron mould. This is quite brittle and easily milled to a fine
powder.
If your flash is leaving behind clumps of unburned stuff, it's probably because the mix isn't in the correct ratios or you're using
too big particle size. Binding flash won't make it burn faster, adding fluffing agents such as Cab-o-sil makes it burn faster.
You may also be using an alloy for your Aluminum that has a bunch of crap that just won't burn, it sounds like.
b2sai December 17th, 2003, 09:46 PM

Where do you guys let the flash ignite ? outdoors or indoors?
Is it possible to get caught for igniting flashes outdoors even if your in isolated areas??
When you igninte 10 grams of flashpowder...

...Approximately how many decibell is the sound ?
...Does it increase proportionaly when you increase the mass?
...Will the floor tile burn if i ignite the flash?

Outdoors without a doubt. Its never a good idea to intentionally ignite pyrotechnic compositions indoors. If you have an
extremely large area, say a sports arena it would be acceptable as the reaction gases would disapate.
Yes, its possible to get caught igniting flashes. Its possible to get caught doing anything; drinking, thinking, doing your
homework, jerking it in the bathroom. Its really only a matter of legallity. With good flash there will be no evidence unless
someone video taped it. If you ignite the flash on a tile, the tile should be virtually unscathed. I can light mine on a piece of
paper and it leave the paper completely untouched for the most part.
b2sai December 23rd, 2003, 01:36 AM

Oki.. so i have to find a secret place to ignite the flashes.. hehe...
Is it safe to ignite the flash powder in a piece of paper, attach a fuse on it and place it in a open metal container to ignite?
Instead of buying a flashpot w/c gona cost me $50.. :(
Man, i never realy imagined its hard to get Al powder in small amounts. I saw at ebay they sell 1lbs of German Al and cost
$20... My school doesnt have any Al powder. I have to choose whether to buy Al, look for a safe substitute chemical or buy a
ready made flash powder. the latter is expensive though..
Mumble- Is the mill method that u use done by a big machine to make Al powder?
tom haggen December 23rd, 2003, 10:49 PM

Dude b2sai don't be a pussy. Who gives a fuck about ingniting flash. Bert I would be supprised to learn that 7000 series air
plane aluminum would contain zinc. I think your on to something though, I got my bar of 6000 series aluminum from a
machine shop. Now that I think about it, People probably to do add some type of flame retardent additive to mechanical and
structual aluminums to prevent serious fires in machine shops. Guess I will have to keep looking for a source of pure
aluminum. I'm just not into that whole buying AL powder with out a expolsives license.
Tended Tripod February 1st, 2004, 02:31 PM

I've used two different types of aluminum in flash, which I mix with the standard 7/3 ratio of Perc and Al. The first one was 425
mesh Al from pyrotek, which burned rather nicely but sends off alot of sparks and couldn't achieve an instantaneous burn even
in small amounts spread out onto a piece of paper.
The second type of Al I've tried is german dark 600 mesh that I ordered off of ebay for $16 plus $4 shipping. It burns very
quickly, and with almost no sparks. It burns instantaneously in the the same amount that I tested with above. I'm not sure of
the exact weight that I tested but it's about 2 tablespoons worth.
Ebay tips: Just do a search for the exact phrase of "aluminum powder" every day for about a week. I check every so often now
to see if I can get a good deal, as I still need another pound of Al to balance out my 5 lbs of Perc :D. It's not very easy to get
good aluminum for under $15, but it's certainly possible to find someone that's offering cheap shipping.
tom haggen: I've noticed that you seem to enjoy using swear words quite often in your posts. I know this isn't against any
rules, but I've always thought that swear words are much more useful and dramatic if you use them less, and in more
appropriate situations. Ie: Stubbing your toe or dropping half of your recently mixed flash powder on carpeting (Alum. makes
horrible stains!). The nice thing about the internet is that you can restrain yourself from saying things on accident via
backspace key.
Another thing: Do you remember when you first got into flash? I'm hoping you were at least a little more paranoid about it
than you are now. I live in a rather desolate area, but I'm still rather afraid of setting off any flash charges, as neighbors can
do whatever they feel like, and that might just be calling the cops to report a "louder than a gunshot" booming noise. My field
also has too many craters in it to just explain away as transplanting apple trees I planted two years ago... So hey, let's just lay
off the new guys until they get an understanding of what they're doing, as every sane person is more cautious of something
that they don't know about. Especially if that something could give you some REALLY bad burns and remove fingers.
One last thing: Aluminum doesn't burn alone in a powder form, so a sheet of aluminum is definitely not going to
spontaneously combust. Bert was right in saying that the purpose of making it an alloy is to make the metal stronger, perhaps
more crack resistant, and also lighter (which is hard because al is already quite light). Have a nice day!
Bert February 2nd, 2004, 02:27 AM

The alloying agents also serve to make the metal heat treatable for altering hardness, ductility & etc. Agree the new guy
doesn't need to be beaten over the head (yet). Particle size can make a big difference in the behavior of small amounts of
flash burned in the open. Using Mg or Mg/Al alloy also will increase speed dramatically over Al in the same particle size/shape.
Pure Al structural members won't burn in any fire that wasn't so hot it wouldn't matter if it was Al or Fe, but Mg and Mg/Al alloys
can be a real surprise in an aircraft or automobile fire- I remember an incident where some alloy wheels caught fire after an
auto accident about 20 years ago. The light was intense.
Evil_Tree February 6th, 2004, 05:35 PM

Definatly go with the two micron flake. I've made 70/30 KClO4 with it. It's hella awsome. So loud I almost wet myself
everytime.
tom haggen February 6th, 2004, 06:49 PM

Actually bert, Aluminum isn't really heat treated in the conventional way. It precipitation hardens over time. This type of
aluminum is very expensive. I'm just having trouble finding a source of bar stock aluminum that I can file down. Sorry about
the new guy. I have no room to talk I have said much more dumb stuff than that so I have no room to talk. I guess what I
meant to say is I don't give a f-bomb about lighting off flash with in city limits why should you. I have been playing with
precursors since I was 2 so it is not a big deal to me. anyway heres a pic of some flash I found on the net made with KCLO3
and Al. hope you guys like.www.geocities.com/grandpa_jacob/index.html?1076146554186

Heres a comp I made with Al and KNO3. I love this pic a lot. This cloud of fire is what was left over from a blinding flash of
light.
KarlMan February 11th, 2004, 05:20 AM

I'm curious Tom Haggen, as to what ratios you used in your KNO3 flash and what aluminum grade you used. Nice pic by the
way. *first post, here it goes..*

I used about 50% KNO3, 30% Al, and instead of using 20% sulfur, I just added a couple of specks of smokeless powder to
lower the ingnition temperature. As for my Aluminum grade, I simply filed down a bar of pure aluminum that came glued to a
strip of magnesium, sold as a fire starter at a surplus store. I told my dad to watch me light it off, and he went blind for like 5
minutes. I laughed cause I knew not to look directly at the flash. It was only like a 4gram charge. P.S. I think i'm going make
a ball mill and start using aluminum foil. Its a bitch to make Al filings by hand.
Blackhawk February 13th, 2004, 05:14 AM

I'm suprised that the reaction was so violent with just Al filings, I have tried KNO3/Al with no burn, and KMnO4/Al with no burn.
I have had very slow but acceptable burns from KMnO4/Al/S but the only thing I have ever had react with the violence of that
comp would be KMnO4 or KNO3/Mg (Both my Al and Mg were ground with a dremel, the Al powder was quite fine but I have
nothing to compare it to). I think I must powder my oxidisers more next time, I have been using the rounded end of a steel
bolt and a glass dish but the grains of the oxidiser are still visible. Once I make a ball mill attatchment to my metal lathe I
am hoping for some much better results.

Well I suppose that theres a possibility that the bar of aluminum I was using could be alloyed with magnesium. I'm really not
positive. I know it is definitely Al, There could be a chance of some magnesium content. However, I definitely powdered my
oxidiser very finely, and even preheated it in the oven just to make damm sure it was dry. Here's the same flash 1/30 of a
second previous of the other pic. Blackhawk, you have a metal lathe? Man I'm very jealous. Oh the possibilities...
Blackhawk February 14th, 2004, 03:15 AM

Yes I just got it as a birthday present, I am paying for half of it however (all up $830AUD). Right now I am machining a
(mostly) Al spring powered BB rifle, I am using the spring out of an umbrella which takes a good 60Kg to pull back half way so
I am hoping for some decent power :D
atmosphere1 February 16th, 2004, 10:53 PM

When aluminium powder (not mixed with other chemicals) can be ignited with a normal yellow(match) flame, It's fine/reactive
enough for making good flash powder with it,without sulfur. This is what i've concluded after a lot of testing. Aluminium foil is
the best material to start with,i believe .
And, don't think its impossible to make good flash aluminium powder at home . I have made and tested powders(also from
others) that came very close to the German Dark 2 micron powder, that i've bought for comparison.
Cyclonite March 9th, 2004, 05:32 PM

In small salutes that 4 micron makes a difference. When your doing 5g+ it starts to not be too noticeable. If your pockets are
deep then buy smallest you can. If you want to make large salutes use larger AL, small salutes use small AL.
Iv had a few drinks so my english may be not up to par.....im sure its fine though
I wonder if this was the right post to reply....oh well
xxxplosive August 25th, 2004, 08:08 PM

3 micron Dark German flake is all I would use, It dosen't burn quite as fast as 2 micron and is great to use with KCIO4
Phreak
Nicker August 28th, 2004, 09:05 PM

I have always used my Aluminum (German Dark) (ultra fine dust approximately 600 mesh), from united nuclear, always
good and Potassium Perchlorate (KClO4), in a 30%/70% mixture. When placing in tubes and straight safety fuse going into
the end caps, makes an extremely loud report and brilliant flash. After a while I found the same items off eBay in bulk,
works amazing as pro mised. Just can t buy fuse off eBa y, some sort of restriction to sell it on eBay. I ha ve a cou ple of
daylight and nighttime flashpowder .avi's i have made, im going to look for hosting somewhere to show you guys. I also enjoy
the smaller micron size for the faster burning, makes life better.
andyboy August 29th, 2004, 09:29 AM

Isn't this in the wrong place?
Anyway, I've found that it is best to mix two different types of AL to get the best bang for your buck. I usually mix German
Dark and Aluminum flakes 25 m (~325 mesh) in a 60/40 ratio. The addition of the flake aluminum seems to make the flash
a bit fluffy and therefor helps to propagate the flame faster, not to mention that it is a lot cheaper then the German dark.
I have a small movie of a 100 grams obliterating a HDPE mortar here, might help b2sai see how powerful it really is.
http://andyboys.web.surftown.se/movies/100flash.wmv
JimmyJones August 30th, 2004, 05:54 PM

When I make mine I usually always use Dark German flake as it is well suited for and makes a nice flash.
xxxplosive August 31st, 2004, 02:18 PM

thats a cool, flash is fun stuff, I have tried a couple of mixes now and am finding that a mix of 15 um bright and 3 um dark
german in a 30:70 ratio gives me lots of report and makes the flash brighter/last longer
JimmyJones September 1st, 2004, 12:53 AM

I found that a mixture of German Dark and Al in a 75/25 gives me a pretty nice bright looking flash.
Bugger September 1st, 2004, 05:31 AM

To obtain better ignition than finely divided pure Al, I wonder if anyone has thought of using Al-Mg alloy powders, or a mixture
of Al and Mg powders, with or without a Mg strip as a "starter"?
K9 September 1st, 2004, 09:59 AM

That's an interesting idea, I wonder how magnalium would work for flash powder. It seems that it would give a cool effect
either way. I sometimes add magnesium powder to aluminum and I'm pretty sure it does give it an extra little kick.
atmosphere1 September 10th, 2004, 01:53 PM

Ofcourse it does , Mg is much more reactive than Al
croc September 12th, 2004, 07:01 AM

I have 600gm of Mg and using it very slowly, the good thing about magnesium is it will burn quicker, ignite without and oxider
and doesnt squeek when it is grounded down.
tmp September 13th, 2004, 10:52 PM

Croc, the Al powder I make will certainly burn without oxidizer although
you're assertion that Mg is easier to ignite is certainly correct. Mg
filings ignite easily. My Al powder is almost as dark as charcoal when
I'm finished processing it.
croc September 26th, 2004, 09:54 PM

Sorry TMP I didn t properly expla in myself but what I meant buy it will ign ite without an oxider is the un processed Mg and Al
(grounded down with a file)
tmp September 27th, 2004, 05:09 AM

Croc, I didn't take any offense by your post. Mg is easier to ignite and
makes a hell of a brighter flash than Al in just about any comp that I
know of ! I currently have 25 LBS of Mg that needs to be ground up.
Currently, my work with powdered Al is making it sub-micron ! Excellent for
work with rocket fuel mixtures when I get it down to size ! Hell, even the
NASA shuttle uses sub-micron Al in the 2 solid boosters ! Now only if I
could find a cheap source of ammonium perchlorate my rocket fuel problems
would be solved ! Until then, I have to make it myself !

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Flash Powder Info from Ebay
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View Full Version : Flash Powder Info from Ebay
CyclonitePyro May 3rd, 2002, 08:10 PM

I had some extra cash so I won an auction for flash powder info that sounded in the item description more appealing than it
turned out to be. Here it is, I know some of it sounds kewlish, but there are some new points made I never heard of before,
such as bringing the paper which is the salute casing into account for how much oxidiser used. There is also a handy mesh to
micron chart. What is this about mixing flash wet and increasing it power x2. Is this kewl nonsense,
or valid?
Before making Flash Powder you should apply for an explosives manufactures license with BATF.
It costs about $5000.00 for the permit and it will keep you from getting arrested.
BATF stands for Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms.
Flash Powder is extremely dangerous and is a very powerful explosive. It is sensitive to friction, impact, heat, spark, static
electricity and can ignite and explode very easy. Some formulas are more sensitive than others. Be very careful at all times
and do not take any chances because you will not get a second chance if you have an accident.
The formulas are listed in order #1 being the most powerful. All measurements are by weight NOT by volume.
All the following information is basic high school chemistry.
It is very important to have an oxygen balanced formula. Calculation of the oxygen balance is very easy. The oxidizers listed
below shows how much oxygen is produced by each chemical. The flammable material listed below shows how much oxygen is
required to completely burn each flammable substance. Multiple the weight if the oxidizer times the number listed to the right
to find out how much oxygen it will produced. Do the same thing with the flammable material to find out how much oxygen is
required to burn the material. The 2 numbers should be equal to have an oxygen balanced formula. Your measurements can
be in any weights you like, grams, ounces, lbs. etc. If you weigh one chemical in grams you must weigh the other chemical
and the paper tube in grams also.
Example.
If you mix 10 grams of aluminum powder with potassium perchlorate the calculations are.
10 grams of aluminum powder times .890 = 8.9
8.9 divided by .340 = 26.176 grams of potassium perchlorate will be required in this formula.
This does not take into consideration the oxygen required to burn the paper tube.
You will have to weigh your paper tubes and end plugs. The paper tube including the 2 end plugs weighs a total of 1 gram.
One gram of cellulose 1.185 x 1 = 1.185 oxygen required. 1.185 divided by .462 = 2.564 grams of Potassium Perchlorate to
burn the cellulose material.
Potassium Perchlorate 26.176 + 2.564 = 28.74 grams

400 mesh Aluminum Powder 10 grams
Cellulose 1 gram
This oxygen balance formula is 28.74 + 10 = 38.74 grams
Each 1 grams M80 tube will hold 38.74 grams of flash powder in this example.
Some experementing and trial and error is required to find out how much flash powder a tube will really hold. Adjust for
calculation accordingly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OXIDIZER Quantity of oxygen produced
Ammonium Nitrate .200

Ammonium Oxalate .515
Ammonium Perchlorate .340
Barium Chlorate .298
Barium Nitrate .306
Calcium Nitrate .339
Potassium Chlorate .396
Potassium Nitrate .396
Potassium Perchlorate .462
Potassium Permanganate .405
Sodium Chlorate .450
Sodium Nitrate .470
Strontium Nitrate .414
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FLAMMABLE MATERIAL Quantity of oxygen required.
Aluminum powder .890

Cellulose = paper tube 1.185
Charcoal 2.667
Sulfur 1.000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flash powder can be mixed dry or wet. By mixing it wet the oxidizer dissolves in the water and completely coats the aluminum
powder. When the mixture dries it will have to be broken into small pieces and the pieces will have to be sifted through a
screen to make it into a powder again. A tea strainer makes a good sifter. By mixing a formula wet then letting it dry increases
the burn rate and the explosive power by as much as two times in some formulas. Add enough HOT water to dissolve the
chemicals into a thin paste.
400 mesh aluminum powder is all you need to make a good flash powder.
Dark German Aluminum Powder or Black German Aluminum Powder contains 5% powdered charcoal to keep the flash powder
from getting hard and lumpy with age while it is in the paper tubes. Over a period of several years some flash will become
hard and will not ignite. If your not going to save your firecrackers for several years then why spend the extra money on this
type of aluminum powder.
Some aluminum powders are very fine but offer no improvement in explosive powder in any formula that is mixed wet. There
is no need to waste your money or expensive aluminum powders. If you are paying more than $6.00 a lb. for small quantities
of Aluminum powder you are wasting your money. You can order 400 mesh aluminum powder direct from the factory in 100
lbs. drums for $2.00 a pound. Aluminum Powder is manufactured in the United States so there is no need to buy aluminum
powder made in a foreign country.
A toy Etch-O-Sketch contains about 1/4 lb. of 400 mesh aluminum powder. You can buy aluminum powder at any graphic art
supply store and you do not have to sign for it and there is no 1 lb. limit. All mail order companies are required by law to sell
aluminum powder in 1 lb. quantities only. Gun magazine classified ads have chemicals listed for sale. Popular Science
classified ads have chemicals listed for sale. Ebay has chemicals listed for sale. Some mail order companies are under Federal
Court order to turn over all records to BATF so they can see what people are buying and what people are making at home. If
BATF thinks your doing something illegal at home they will get a search warrent and come to your house. The Gestapo is
watching you.
The addition of some chemicals to flash powder can be extremely dangerious. The addition of small amounts of sulfur to flash
powder make it very sensitive to friction and impact. The addition of Red Phosphorus to flash powder increases the sensitivity
several 1000 times and it could explode while mixing.
Never store flash powder in any type container with a screw on top or a snap on top if you value your life.
Never add unknown items or chemicals to flash powder because it may cause it to become very sensitive to friction, very
sensitive to impact, very unstable and it could ignite and explode without warning.
Never add matches to flash powder. Matches contain red phosphorus.
CAUTION, never mix Red Phosphorus KCLO3 or KMnO4 and other oxidizing agents. Explosion may result on contact or from
friction.
DO NOT make pipe bombs. Pipe bombs are one of the most dangerious explosive devises there is.
Flash powder should never be used to make pipe bombs. Flash powder can react with the metal pipe and explode. Its
impossible to keep flash powder out of the pipe threads. Flash powder is very sensitive to friction, static electricity, impact. No
matter what I say there will always be some one that has to learn the hard way. You are playing with Death.
Formula #1 is the best, formula #2 second best and so on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #1
Potassium Perchlorate 8 ounces

Potassium Permanganate 1 ounce
3 ounces of 400 mesh aluminum powder
Cellulose paper tube and end plugs.
Produces a white flash when it burns or explodes.
Produces an extremely loud and powerful explosion with no smoke.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #2

400 mesh Aluminum Powder 3 ounces
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #3
Ammonium Perchlorate 10.6 ounces

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #4

Barium Nirtate 1.5 ounce
Produces a Green flash when it burns or explodes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #5

Strontium Nitrate 1.1 ounce
Produces a Red flash when it burns or explodes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #6
Potassium Chlorate 10.5 ounces

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #7

Potassium Permanganate 1 ounce
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #8

Barium Nitrate 1.5 ounce
Produces a Green flash when it burns or explodes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #9

Produces a Red flash when it burns or explodes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #10

Ammonium Perchlorate 5.4 ounce
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #11

Ammonium Perchlorate 5.4 ounce
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #12

Barium Nitrate 3 ounce
Produces a Bright Green flash when it burns or explodes with no smoke.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #13

Produces a Bright Red flash when it burns or explodes with no smoke.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #14

Sodium Chlorate 1 ounce
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #15

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #16

Copper sulfate 1/2 ounce
Produces a Blue flash when it burns.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #17
Potassium Perchlorate 4.5 ounces

Barium Nitrate 6.8 ounces
Produces an extremely Bright Deep Dark Green flash when it burn or explodes.
This formula is a little hard to ignite.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #18

Strontium Nitrate 5.0 ounces
Produces an extremely Bright Deep Dark Red flash when it burn or explodes.
This formula is a little hard to ignite.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #19
Sodium Chlorate 9.25 ounces

Do not mix wet. Sodium Chlorate is hydroscopic and adsorbs moisture from the air.
Produces an extremely loud and powerful explosion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #20

Charcoal 1/3 ounce
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #21 Booby Trap
Potassium Permanganate 9 ounces

Powdered Sugar 3 ounce
This formula is self igniting when it gets wet. It may ignite and explode from adsorbing moisture from the air. Burns very slow
with a bright orange color. This formula makes a good ignitor for other flash powders when used as a booby trap. Self ignition
time is base on the temperature. Below 50 degrees F it may not ignite. Pour some of this on a firecracker and when it rains it
will explode.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #22

Potassium Nitrate 1.16 ounce
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #23 Time Delay

Potassium Nitrate 5.25 ounces
Charcoal 1/3 ounce
Aluminum Powder 2 ounces
The chemicals form an unstable mixture that will ignite and explode in about 5 to 7 days at 90 degrees F
The chemicals form an unstable mixture that will ignite and explode in about 14 days at 80 degrees F
The chemicals form an unstable mixture that will ignite and explode in about 30 days at 70 degrees F
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #24 Friction Sensitive
Potassium Chlorate 11ounces

Powdered sand 1 ounce
Sulfur 1 ounce
This mixture is very dangerious. The addition of gritty material like sand makes it very sensitive to friction. The addition of
sulfur makes it very sensitive to impact and friction. This mixture is very dangerious and may explode while mixing. This
mixture is used in impact grenades.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #25 Extremely Dangerious

Red Phosphorus 1/10 ounce
This mixture is extremely dangerious. This mixture is so sensitive it may ignite and explode while mixing. Extremely sensitive
to friction and impact. This mixture may ignite and explode without warning. This mixture will ignite and burn when mixed with
water.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #26 Gray White Smoke
Potassium Perchlorate 10.0

Zinc powder 1 ounce
Aluminum powder 2 ounces
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #26 Ignitor
Potassium Permanganate 1/4 teaspoon

Glycerine 4 drops
Above 90 degrees F it will ignite and burn in about 10 seconds.
At 80 degrees F it will ignite and burn in about 30 seconds.
At 70 degrees F it will ignite and burn in about 2 to 3 minutes.
At 60 degrees F it will ignite and burn in about about 30 minutes to 2 hours.
At 50 degrees F it may not ignite at all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #27 Thermite
Sodium Chlorate 3 ounces

Powdered Sugar 1 ounces
Burns very slow and very hot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Potassium Nitrate 3 ounces

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #31 Green Military Flare

Barium Nitrate 6.8 ounces
Linseed Oil .286 ounces
Compact into an M80 tube produces an extremely Bright Green Flare burns for about 2 minutes.
Make a wet black powder ignitor. Coat one end with wet black powder and let it dry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #32 Red Military Flare

Strontium Nitrate 5.0 ounces
Compact into an M80 tube produces an extremely Bright Red Flare burns for about 2 minutes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #33 Bright White Flare

Compact into an M80 tube produces an extremely Bright White Flare burns for about 2 minutes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #34 Extremely Bright White Military Flare

400 mesh Magnesium Powder 3 ounces
Compact into an M80 tube produces an EXTREMELY Bright White Flare burns for about 2 minutes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #35 Nitrogen Triode
2 ounces of medical type iodine

1/2 cup of laundry ammonia
Mix and stir for 10 minutes at or above 70 degrees F.
Drip the mixture one drop at a time through a piece of filter paper like a coffee filter.
After all the liquid had been filtered you will have a tiny spot of dark red stuff that looks like mud.
Place a spot of mud on something to dry. When it dries it will explode if you touch it.
Use a tiny art paint brush to put several spots in a hallway.
When someone walks through the hall and steps on some of the spots they will explode.
Place a spot on the coin return of a soft drink machine.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #36 Nitro Cellulose Detonation High Explosives
Tape a blasting cap to a 1 pound can of Smokless Gun Powder.

This stuff will detonate with almost as much power as C4 plastic explosive.
Black Powder explodes at 1312 ft. sec.
Nitro Cellulose explodes at 21,900 ft sec.
C4 detonates at 26,400 ft sec.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #37 White Smoke Bomb
Dissolve 4 ounces of Potassium Perchlorate in 1 Quart of Hot Water.

Mix 16 ounces of sawdust with the water mixture and let it soak for a few hours.
Spread the mixture out on a sheet of plastic to dry for a few days.
Pour the mixture in a pile and light it with a match.
Put the mixture in a large paper tube with a fuse.
This will produce enough smoke to cover a football field.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #38 Stink Bomb
Dissolve 1 tablespoon of vasoline in 1 cup of acetone.

Pour the mixture over 1 pound of hair and mix well until the acetone evaporates.
You can get hair at a local barber shop.
Sprinkle 5 ounces of fine Powdered Potassium Perchlorate over the oily hair and mix well.
The Fine Powdered Potassium Perchlorate will stick to the oily hair.
Compact the hair into a large paper tube with a fuse.
Produces a very dense white smoke that stinks so bad it makes most people vomit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #39 Stink Bomb
Potassium Nitrate 2.5 ounces

Sulfur 1 ounce
Candle wax .07 ounces
Produces a white smoke that smells like rotten eggs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #40 Nitrogen Chloride explosive gas.
Ammonium Nitrate 1 tablespoon

Laundry Bleach 1/8 cup
When mixed together it will boil and produce a very explosive gas.
Very unstable gas explodes when heated to 93 degrees F.
Explodes in direct sun light or magnesium light.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #41 Tear Gas
Dissolve 1 ounce of Potassium Perchlorate in 1 ounce of Hot Water.

Stir in 4 ounces of Cayenne Red Pepper. Mix Well.
Spread the mixture out 1/4" thick on plastic sheet to dry.
Compact into paper tubes and ignite with a fuse.
Produces a white choking smoke. Very irritating to the lungs and eyes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #42 Black Smoke
100% Naphthalene (Moth Balls) 1 ounce

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #43 Black Powder Fuse
Dissolve Black Powder in some hot water to make a thin liquid.

Soak some 100% cotton string in the liquid for about an hour. Thick string works best.
Remove the string from the liquid and let it dry.
Burns about 2 inch per second.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #44 Slow Burning fuse
Dissolve Potassium Nitrate in some hot water.

Soak some 100% cotton string in the liquid for about an hour. Thick string works best. Rope works great.
Burns about 1 inch per minute.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #45 Fast burning Fuse
Potassium Nitrate 4 ounces

Sugar 1 ounce
Burns about 1 inch per second.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #46 Self igniting fuse
Potassium Nitrate 75 grams

Sugar 15 grams
Sulfur 9 grams
Red Phosphorus 2 grams
Burns about 1 inch per second. Ignites from friction and impact if someone steps on it or drives over it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #47 Rocket Propellent
Ammonium Perchlorate 8.73 ounces

Charcoal 1.5 ounces
Sulfur 1 ounce
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mesh Size and Microns
Mesh sizes. Mesh is a way particle sizes are measured. Mesh size refers to the screen size used to sift a powder. Different size
screens are used to sift out different size powderes. The higher the mesh size the smaller the partical size. If a powder is
described as 400 mesh that means it was sifted through a 400 mesh screen.
Micron sizes. One micron is 1 millionth of a meter (1/25000 of an inch). It is a convenient scale to use in describing fine
powders, particularly those smaller than 325 mesh. Usually the micron size describes the average particle size.
U.S. Standard * Space between wires

Sieve Mesh No. Inches Microns** Typical material
14 0.056 1400
28 0.028 700 Beach sand
60 0.0098 250 Fine sand
100 0.0059 150
200 0.0030 74 Portland cement
325 0.0017 44 Silt
400 0.0015 37 Plant Pollen
(1200) 0.0005 12 Red Blood Cell
(2400) 0.0002 6
(4800) 0.0001 2 Cigarette smoke
* The mesh numbers in parentheses are too small to exist as actual sieves; they are included just for reference.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTICE.
Ok people...the bottom line is, flash powder is extremely dangerious. You could loose your hands and eyes making this stuff.
You could even be killed.
It may seem like fun to make your own fireworks but it won't be fun to spend the rest of your life blind and with no hands.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possession of an explosive device is a felony.
<a href="http://www.fireworksland.com/html/m80.html" target="_blank">http://www.fireworksland.com/html/m80.html</a>
<a href="http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/illegal/illegal.htm" target="_blank">http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-

explo_pub/illegal/illegal.htm</a>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what happens when an M80 firecracker explodes in your hand.

I hope you didnt pay much for that...it has a lot of mixtures but many are labelled wrong, he had 3 labelled "Thermite" -
KCl03+sugar, KNO3+sugar and KMnO4+sugar...and the spelling mistakes arent promising either.

I can't say I would have paid for any of that...
I'm *sure* I've seen that mesh/inch/micron chart on the skylighter website.
For mixing flash wet, he seems to have neglected the issue of fine metal powders like Al and Mg, reacting with the water and
presenting safety issues.
Inluding the oxygen required to burn the paper tube... junk IMO. I've never seen a good flash comp even leave a mark on
the inside of a paper tube. The heat duration is just too short to get the paper combusting. Even if it did char the surface of
the tube, this guy has presumed that the entire tube will be completely burnt - rubbish!
Impossible to keep flash out of pipe threads - it isn't if you don't let it get in there in the first place. I'm not arguing that
using flash in pipe bombs is safe, but I disagree with his sweeping statement. Anyway, who said a pipe bomb has to use
threaded metal pipe?
He also seems to have listed a lot of flash comps as producing no smoke, don't think that is accurate...
Addition of sulfer increases sensitivity several thousand times - another sweeping and exagerated statement. For example, if
the ignition temp of a flash comp is 300*C, add a little sulfer and it now it will ignite at 0.3*C or less?

Does ammonium oxalate really work as an oxidizer for pyrotechnics ?

Yeah, I wouldn't have bought it if I knew what it was. I always find the shreds of salutes and they are not even darkened. Not
only the aluminums I'd be worried about but KMnO4 in a lot of the comps would be nasty if mixing wet. But I wonder if it would
help the burn rate? Maybe it is related to black powder manufacture, ball milling method is better than the CIA method. If I
get 2 micron aluminum and fine KClO4 and mix very well, that might be better than this mixing wet method.
I don't understand why this guy thinks two oxidizers is better than one. What benefit does having KMnO4 with your KClO4 give
you? None I think except for increased sensitivity.

Just a question from this info though, do etch-a-sketches really contain about 1/4 a pound Al powder? and if so what mesh is
it (Al is really damn expensive here in oz)?
EventHorizon May 6th, 2002, 08:13 PM

I believe I scanned the "Complete Book of Flash Powder" and uploaded it to the FTP. It probably has all the same info in it.
0EZ0 May 6th, 2002, 11:07 PM

When i downloaded "The Complete Book Of Flash Powder". Adobe Acrobat Reader said it was corrupt and unable to open it.
:confused:
[ May 06, 2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
Pu239 Stuchtiger May 6th, 2002, 11:18 PM

Ammonium oxalate will not work as an oxidizer.

lol, ammonium oxalate (NH4OOCCOONH4) is closer to a reducer than an oxidant..

Inferno,etch-a-sketches do contain some fine bright alum. powder,but they also contain tiny plastic spheres,which make about
half of what's inside.And it's nowhere near a 1/4 lb..
I also have to disagree with this guy about dark aluminum being a waste of money.Both dark and bright powders work well,but
dark formulas seem to ignite easier,and I have yet to see a commercial salute made with bright aluminum.

Thanks mcleod, have to find one at a garage sale or something...Even 1/10th of a pound would be owrth paying 2 or 3 bucks
for (thats $1-1.50 american btw)
John13 April 23rd, 2004, 05:45 PM

Can you not buy alum. powder in Australia? Because I buy it for $12.50 a pound here in the U.S
DMSOnMyVeins September 27th, 2006, 05:35 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Formula #36 Nitro Cellulose Detonation High Explosives
Tape a blasting cap to a 1 pound can of Smokless Gun Powder.

This stuff will detonate with almost as much power as C4 plastic explosive.
Black Powder explodes at 1312 ft. sec.
Nitro Cellulose explodes at 21,900 ft sec.
C4 detonates at 26,400 ft sec.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is complete BS
I suggest you demand a refund
Skean Dhu September 27th, 2006, 10:45 PM

the PFP database will have formulae that actually work and have been or are used by the pyrotechnic industry.
http://members.shaw.ca/gryphon223/PFP/
And its free, so my suggestion is sell your book on ebay for what you payed for it.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > How to store BP
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View Full Version : How to store BP
Gandalf May 5th, 2002, 05:35 PM

Hello everybody,
First of all, I'm no chemist, dindn't "took" chemistry (nor English :) ) in high school but I'm interested in explosiv devices.
Beeing interested, I got a hold of 10 kilo's of Sulfer and a big bag of Potassium Nitrate. This, in combination with charcoal (not briquettes) makes a nice combustable compound
:D
Beeing an Amateur I do wonder what is the best way to store this BP? Can I store in in glass jar's with metal (though 'coated') lid? Is there a risk in storing it? Can it spontanous
ingnite?
Thanx for helping me out,
Gandalf
kingspaz May 5th, 2002, 06:22 PM

so long as the chemicals you have used are reasonably pure there shouldn't be any risk of spontaneous combustion. glass jars should be fine although you should prepare for
the worst and use plastic containers as they won't create dangerous shrapnel if the black powder went off. but then there is the risk of static discharge which black powder is
suseptible to ignition from. although i beleive with imporvised blackpowder this risk as practically none existant as the quality of the black powder is not too high. personly i'd
opt for the plastic containers with press on lids to avoid the possibility of black powder getting caught in the threads and going off.
hehe it forms a cobustable compostion or mixture, not compound as that is a singular chemical made of two or more elements.
you should read some basic chemistry books. this will enable you to make your own judgements and help you understand the reasons why certain mixtures are bad, etc.
mark May 5th, 2002, 08:44 PM

I can already tell your going to kave nice, safe career in Pyrotechnics. I cant recall anyone ever being concerned with bp saftey before. Hell, cardboard tubes are more
suceptible to ignition from friction. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Welcome to the boards.
NoltaiR May 5th, 2002, 10:10 PM

*Shakes head and quietly leaves the thread...*
...these guys need to be given an IQ test before posting...
mr.evil May 6th, 2002, 03:48 AM

My is BP in LDPE jars, from vitamine C pills or something.
I store my LE/HE mixtures in a ammunition box(for granates)
Anyway,
Can you send me an e-mail Gandalf? i'm from the Netherlands too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Gandalf May 6th, 2002, 08:07 AM

Quote MrEvil:
Can you send me an e-mail Gandalf? i'm from the Netherlands too
Sure, if you give me an emailadress :)
Quote NolTair:
these guys need to be given an IQ test before posting...
I'm sorry???.... Are some questions prohibited or what? Personally it's my opinion that there ARE no dumb questions. Not to ask is the dumb thing to do!
Gandalf
[ May 06, 2002, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Gandalf ]
kingspaz May 6th, 2002, 08:49 AM

NoltaiR, just because he lacks experience doesn't make him stupid. we all have to start from somewhere including YOU.
[ May 06, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]

i'm sorry Gandalf, TheShadow54@hotmail.com
(see the flying envelop above :p )
[ May 06, 2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]

Noltair, you think the thread he posted made no sense, but your response shows even less IQ! Contribute something or leave it to the mods.
If you're really worried about static, you can always make sure the BP is a little humid. I keep my Bp in small plastic containers which are kept in a big metal box. That way, in
event of unwanted combustion, the pressure is gradually stepped down. Also, most metal containers, especially round ones, have weak points or holes where the different
plates are connected. This usually is enough to prevent explosion.
Wicked May 6th, 2002, 05:23 PM

Was nbk sick when this thread was recent?

wicked, stop talking irrelavent crap or i will ensure you stop talking indefinately.
mongo blongo May 6th, 2002, 11:21 PM

Yes he is talking shit most of the time! If I was a mod and read his first post he would get HED! But he looks like he might have some potential now. Wicked Please try to keep
this forum nice, neat and relevent for your own good. :)
mark May 7th, 2002, 12:10 AM

Ummm, wicked, Kingspaz is a mod. If he sees fit to help out someone, nbk will most likeley leave him well alone.
NoltaiR May 7th, 2002, 12:28 AM

Calm down fellas, this isn't a flame war. And I wasn't saying that he was stupid.. although I have always been under the impression that this was the sort of place that required
an amount of previous knowledge before posting.. especially a new topic on a first post.
Anyways I would have just recommended taking a look at older threads about BP and you will find occasional bits and pieces about how different people store their BP... now
BP (ESPECIALLY the homemade kind) doesn't pose a threat of of static ignition easily enough that a certain type of container would matter. The only thing to make sure of is
that it is in an air-tight confinement or else the mix will absorb water and clump up (which will hurt the final performance of the BP even if you regrind it right before use).

Hello,
Maybe a little bit off topic,
Tiny pieces of BP seems to deflagrate faster than finely powdered BP, has anyone noticed this before?
Gandalf May 7th, 2002, 04:28 PM

Quote:
I have always been under the impression that this was the sort of place that required an amount of previous knowledge before posting.. especially a new topic on a first post.
That wasn't my impression. If you can seriously discuss the production of pipe-boms and how to sell them, then it seems this forum has no IQ limit what so ever!
Anyways I would have just recommended taking a look at older threads about BP and you will find occasional bits and pieces about how different people store their BP...
Beeing a well know poster on other UBB forum's, I DO know how to search this place. And so I did, with no results at all.
Well, I'm gonna drop the subject. I'm sorry this first post roused so many emotions (including my own :D ). It's just that I'm a big fan of 'Freedom of Speach'
CU, Gandalf
[ May 07, 2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Gandalf ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If you can seriously discuss the
production of pipe-boms and how to sell them, then it seems this forum has no IQ limit what so ever!<hr /></blockquote>Please point towards this thread where the production of and sale of pipe bombs is being discussed so that it can be deleted.
[quote]I DO know how to search this place. And so I did, with no results at all.[quote]
I got 132 search results for "BP" and 74 for "black powder". I'm not saying that the exact information that you want is in there, not it's hardly "no results at all".
Tyler_Durden May 7th, 2002, 06:25 PM

Speaking of IQ, I am almost certain mine dropped at least a couple points after reading this thread.
Now I will make an attempt at contribution so that I don't add to the stupidity:
I think they sell commercial Bp in plastic containers, like medicine bottles but much larger (depending on how much you purchase, etc). I don't your Bp is going to just
randomly go off, and unless you have a lot or it is in a bad place, it is not a huge worry if it does anyway. In other words, don't store it near other flammable stuff if it is a
concern. I like the idea of using multiple plastic containers in one metal one... I might do that. What I would do, though, is leave the lid just laying on and not attached in any
way... this way it would just blow the top off and that would be that... I think? Does this logic make sense?
mark May 7th, 2002, 10:15 PM

Anthony, he was exagerating somewhat. The thread was not about that, but the selling of cratermakers did come up. It was a useful thread though.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hello,
Maybe a little bit off topic,
Tiny pieces of BP seems to deflagrate faster than finely powdered BP, has anyone noticed this before? <hr /></blockquote>This to an extent is correct. What you are missing however is that these 'chunks' of BP are actually chunks of the black powder MIX, not chunks of separate KNO3,
C, or S. If you had some homemade 'BP' that was made of ingredients large enough to differentiate with the naked eye then it will probably perform extremely poorly, or most
likely not perform at all. The 'chunks' that you speak of are corned particles of BP made to the grain size most desired. The fact that the grains seem to burn faster when larger
is because when you put them in a pile to do a flame test, there is much more space for air (oxygen) between the grains than there would be in a pile of powdered BP in
which close to no air would be allowed between the particles.
more air = more O2 = faster burn rate (for those of you who don't know)
Gandalf May 8th, 2002, 03:51 AM

Quote:
I got 132 search results for "BP" and 74 for "black powder".
My dear Moderator,
Searching for "BP" or "Black Powder" on an Explosives and Weaponsforum is of course like searching for a drop of water in an ocean. Hardly effective don't you think?
As far as I can recall I searched for the keywords "store" and "BP" beeing unaware of other words in the Englisch language that would be fit for searching. (To search is an art
by itself :) )
By the way, if the grammar sucks, please excuse me :D .
About the cratermakers (or pipe-bombs)... I don't know where they were described exactly, and I don't have the time to re-read this entire forum. Ask "Mark", I remember
him being there (making sense!).
Finally a word of thanx to those who answered the initial question!!! You helped me out :D
Gandalf
[ May 08, 2002, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Gandalf ]

You said that you got "no results at all". That isn't "I got no results for my specific search string regarding storage of BP" is it?
Anyway, storage, like has been said, it doesn't really matter. Although I would avoid bare metals which might react with the KNO3. Also, metal or other fire resistant containers
could be a risk in a fire causing an explosion rather than burning through and allowing the BP to burn to atmosphere.
Seriously, if you want some good background info on LE's I recomend reading some pyro websites, they've got a wealth of info there. Try <a href="http://
www.pyropage.com/" target="_blank">http://www.pyropage.com/</a> go to "personal pyro pages" and work your way down the list.

I am requesting that a caring mod please close this topic... it is threads like this that ruin our integrity.
Arkangel May 8th, 2002, 10:17 AM

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of it about......would never have happened when I was a lad etc etc..(which with respect to the forum was not that long ago)What happened to
lurking and learning?
I haven't been able to understand why this, or the gasoline/plaster of Paris thread went on so long. Maybe for sport, maybe NBK's on Prozac? :p

What a good idea!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Chorate - sulfur mixtures incompatible?
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View Full Version : Chorate - sulfur mixtures incompatible?
S. Toppholzer May 7th, 2002, 03:32 PM

I was experimenting w ith different chlorates mixtures making a simple igniter for thermite.
I made up molten sugar-chlorate-sulfur mixtures (later I switched over to molten sorbitol - much low er melting point and safer).
Whenever I make the sugar(or sorbitol)-chlorate mixture it becomes rock hard after cooling and it doesn't pick up any moisture at all for months. But w henever I add sulfur
(flowers of sulfur) to that mixture, it also hrdens very well but after one or tw o days it's softening up again and stays a syrupy mass. Not usable at all.
Is there any incompatibility between chlorates and sulfur or does sulfur pick up that much moisture?

Only the incompatibility which makes chlorate/sulphur mixes at risk from spontaneous ignition :)

what happens is....
sulphur contains sulphurous oxides and residual H2SO4 and H2SO3. these acids can react with the chlorate anion.
H+ + ClO3- ---> HClO3
HClO3 is very unstable and prone to decompose explosively i think.
BoB- May 8th, 2002, 05:13 PM

I'm going to have to call bullshit on you dude, Chlorate/Sugar spontaniously detonates w hen heated to sucroses' melting temp, and with Sulfur in the mix you w ould ruin a
perfectly good pan and no one would call you "pretty" anymore.
xoo1246 May 8th, 2002, 05:37 PM

Make some bad(/crude) blackpow der with charcoal briquetts and add some aluminum. Works very w ell as a thermite starter.

In an attempt to make a KNO3/sucrose rocket fuel substitute with NaClO3, I tried this. I melted the NaClO3 and sprinkled a little sugar in, it burnt on contact. So I wouldn't say it
detonates, but it certainly doesn't mix.
DarkAngel May 8th, 2002, 08:52 PM

It absolutely wouldn't surprised me if this would detonate or atleast burn explosively.
Pre-heated mixtures always seem to burn much faster w hen ignited.
"and sprinkled a little sugar in, it burnt on contact. So I wouldn't say it detonates"
Anthony that doesn't say much don't you think?
When a mix of Suger and Chlorate are heated together you have a much larger quantity that would burn much more explosively than a little bit of suger sprinkled on some
melted NaClO3.

Oh, for sure Darkangel, I don't know w hat would happen if you premixed the NaClO3/sugar and then tried to melt them together, I'd expect deflageration though.
I sprinkled the sugar to test whether it would ignite at the melting temp of NaClO3, i.e. I didn't w ant the above scenario to happen.

Well, I actually once had an accident w ith this. It caused all neighbours assmbling in front of my mom's house asking if all was OK because of all that thick smoke pillow ing out
of all openings of her home. 'twas hard to convince them not to call the firefighters...
I was heating up a soulution of chlorate and sugar and thus getting rid of the water, ahum. Well it w as at one point almost without w ater and the next moment the pan when
woosh! It w as extremely hot fierce burning w ith flames up to the kitchen ceiling. It w as terrible. Thanks God it didn't detonate as soem of you suggested.
Later I turned to sorbitol w hich needs much lower temperatures to melt.
DarkAngel May 11th, 2002, 05:37 PM

Wow are you me?
No,i used KNO3 but the rest is the same.
Search for my old post i think it w has called "Major KNO3/Suger accident"
Cricket May 11th, 2002, 07:04 PM

Wow, are both of you me? My kitchen ceiling is still burnt from the KNO3/sugar stuff. I had it in an old bread pan , the size of a loaf of bread and it all burnt. It was awesome
and scarry too. I, in the panic, threw about 100 ml of water on it and it exploded with great force and knocked me dow n, and all this while being show ered with molten/burning
bits of the stuff (burnt little holes all over my arms). I did learn something though, one bread pan on KNO3/sucrose is enough to fill a good sized house with very thick white
smoke and also, I would guess you don't even have to melt the stuff, just have a hot ignitor to set the stuff off and then it will melt all by its self. Thats what happened w ith
me anyway, hardly any of it was liquid when it w ent off. Best done on a camp fire I think. I have no experience with chlorates though (for the best I think :) ).

The exact same thing happened to my brother. He'd read about the stuff in the anarchist crapbook and start heating a whole pan full of KNO3/sugar on the kitchen cooker. I
guess he didn't stir it enough and the stuff on the bottom overheated and decomposed, the w hole lot went up and I had to run in, see w hat was going on, grab the pan handle
and carry the pan outside to let it finish buring. It was pretty damn fierce.
On the bright side, I kept the rest of the KNO3 (I had been unable to find some at the time) :)
Man, that was *years* ago!
[ May 11, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
S. Toppholzer May 13th, 2002, 07:11 AM

Well, judging by your experience, I guess I have been pretty lucky.
I used sodium chlorate weed killer (98% chlorate) and it w as all done in a glaced ceramic pan. When it w ent off it w as so hot and burned so strong I wasn't able coming cloes.
After the fire w as out (seemed to last half an eternity) Everything in the kichen was covered with some w hite powder (mybe fire extinguisher matter from heaven, lol), the
stove had just one small slightly burned spot and the floor had some burnings from the pan sherds that flew everywhere. Everything else was still fine. Man. I think that w as a
real close call. I did this three times before in another kitchen - unimmaginable what would have happened there with a frail wooden cupboard right above the stove...

The w hite stuff which covers everything as you describe it is NaCl from the sodiumchlorate decomposition. NaClO3 -> NaCl + 3/2 O2
Now this show s it burned very fiercly if even the NaCl was vaporized.

I had posted this in another thread somewhere, but anyways just to brief it up..
A while back w hen I was searching for a very cheap and fast alternative alternative to BP without the use of KNO3 as a oxidizer, I tried to make a solid rocket fuel out of
chlorine granules (for swimming pools), charcoal briqquets (this w as before I really knew better), and S. The mix was made in a 75:15:10 by volume. The mix was stored in a
gallon-sized ziplock bag for a week. I had no idea as to w hat would happen, but storage is always the first test that attempt.
The bag was stored in an empty steel tool box along with a cup of smokeless pow der (I had no idea that spontaneous ignition could be a factor). When I came back a week
later and checked the box, the first sign of something being w rong w as black schorch marks running out of every little opening in the tool box along with a few outward dents.
When I opened the box up I saw that the smokeless pow der had been burnt up and the plastic cup that it w as in had melted into a little plastic blob. There was a grey slime all
over the bottom of the box that came from the decomposition of the 'rocket mix'.

Damn, so many sugar/oxidizer accidents...
[ July 18, 2002, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]

Whoa, that is a lot of accidents...For KNO3+Sugar smoke bombs, you dont have to melt it really. Also, anyone w ho tries to melt it to the melting points of sucrose or pot nitrate
is bloody stupid, or doesnt enjoy the tiles/wallpaper in their kitchen.
Hell, it works FINE without any heating, just add a tiny bit of water (even a drop for every 30 mls or so) and stir it in together.
Ive tried cooking to various stages, ALWAYS with w ater though, and just w et-mixed, they work just the same, except the cooked stuff burns a fair bit quicker. I put a fair bit of
water in one and cooked it a lot, probably close to ignition, and w ith so much water it became a very thick (thicker than honey), dough-yellow colour. It was about 200mls, and
when ignited the w hole lot Was burnt in 2-3 seconds, 100mls will take 15-30 seconds if confined to burn, when its not cooked.
So basically, its quicker and easy, and just as good to wahck the ingredients together with enough w ater to get the whole mixture reasonably damp (If its soaked, dont worry
itll still burn, but its best to just be damp, a drop per 30mls or so) and light it with anything
S. Toppholzer May 14th, 2002, 05:27 AM

well, inferno that's exactly what I did - or tried to.
It w orked out before a couple of times and then it burned me, sort of.
So please take care it won't happen to you.

"the cooked stuff burns a fair bit quicker"
That's exactly what people are after - most of this stuff is being used for rocket propellant.

the whole thing reminds me of another minor accident. I don't know what I thought I'd get from it - maybe some sort of fast burning smoke composition?
Anyways, I soaked many paper towels in NaClO3 and after dhey wer dry I rolled them tightly and enclosed the whole thing with loads of broad tape - only one side remained
open and a short piece of NaClO3-paper w as the "fuse".
Outside I held the "torch" in my left hand and lit the "fuse" with a cigarette butt. The reaction was so fast I hadn't any time to react!
My right hand was somewhat burned and the "torch" which actually bacame a rocket landed some 50 metres away...

I'm affraid my kitchen accident beats all of yours. I was drying out a mix of KCL04, charcoal and sulpher in a pan on my cooker. I left the room to get some thing, came back
and there was a big flash I fell back and it cost some thing like 220 to repair the damage.

well, i'm not being mean when i say this but you deserved that! you can't expect to dry an allready sensitive mix in a fucking pan and expect it to not go off! next time put it in
the oven at 40*C...

O.K it was my fault but I was young and didn't know any better.
Is it safe to dry compositions in your oven?, I can just see that resulting in a nice explosion. Most probably killing you and anyone around.

Best to use the sun for mixed comps, or above/below a radiator.

The problem here in not so sunny England is just that. It always seems to be wet, rainny and genarally misirable. This also seems to mess up my pyro life quite a bit. Is my
airing cupboard, boiler room what ever you want to call it, a safe place to dry out comps? I mean would it be safe to dry things out in it overnight?
VX June 15th, 2002, 07:28 PM

I doubt Anthony will sympathise w ith that, he, me and quite a few others here are from the UK too. :)
But yes an airing cupbord will be fine, as will a radiator etc.
zaibatsu June 15th, 2002, 08:45 PM

When converting NaClO3 to KClO3, I have dried the w et KClO3 under a lamp, in 24hours it was very dry and perfect to use, and I'm in England too.

sugar/clorate(patent under augendre's white powder ) was used alot in the 19th century to blast hard rock. w ith the addition of ferrocyanide of potassium..latrr with al..mixed
with alchol and alowed to evaporate. it burns relativly slow if mixed in equal quantities(by w eight) as the patent explain..under pressure it is quite a pow erful blasting agent
.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Picrate
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Madog555 May 7th, 2002, 10:21 PM

Hello, i tried the Lead Picrate recipe on Mr. Cool's site
i took .4g of homeade PbO and added it to a beaker, then i put in 0.7g of TNP in. i added 7ml of isoproply alcahol. stirred,
and let it dry.
now i have 1.7g of material that i scraped off the sides and bottom of the beaker.
i tried confineing it in a small paper tube and i only got a small pop. i then pressed some in another tube and tried that. little
bigger pop. the paper was not ripped.
i think i may use this method next, they seem to get a very good product. <a href="http://powerlabs.org/chemlabs/
lead_picrate.htm" target="_blank">http://powerlabs.org/chemlabs/lead_picrate.htm</a>
i think it may be because there is alot of impureities includeing mainly PbO.
[ May 08, 2002, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Madog555 ]

Try making the same, but dont confine it in paper, confine it in plastic.
The easiest thing is to cut off the part you hold on a party popper (Obviously you empty or fire it first). Theres a small hole
where the string goes in, you may have to put a tiny bit of tape on it. On the cut end, melt it for a few seconds with a lighter,
the roll it along a table or the ground or whatever to make the hole smaller, so it just fits in a sparkler (this gives a louder
bang). Put the picrate in. Cut off an inch or so of sparkler, and stick it into the tube, and tape it in. To fill the tube a bit more,
shave some safety match heads and put them on top of the picrate. Also makes a louder bang sometimes.
This will make a bang. I tried emptying out the armstrong mix from some caps, usually a ring of 8, and putting it in paper
tubes, and sticking a sparkler in it. They just made a dull pop. Very few made a mark, let alone rip the card. Then i put them
in plastic things, and they are as good as any commercial firecracker. So, i had the same problem kind of, and if you put 2
grams of picrate into a plastic tube...
[ May 14, 2002, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]
2,4,6-TNP March 1st, 2004, 07:40 PM

Greetings to you all!
I have recently found a most wonderful book on explosive sythesis I found it at this site www.uvkchem.com it gives the
synthesis of over 121 high explosives. Well anyway I tried the lead picrate synthesis and ended up with a yellow to brown
colored powder after drying. Well here is my question, The book gives the following mixture for a substitute for lead
styphnate, lead azide, mercury fulminate, or diazodinitrophenol in blasting caps.
160 g Lead picrate

20 g Potassium chlorate
20 g lead tetraoxide
Can I substitute sodium nitrate for the potassium chlorate and lead monoxide for the lead tetraoxide?
leenl March 2nd, 2004, 05:23 PM

a few years ago I have made lead picrate,using lead monoxide(lead II oxide) and picric acid.
the product was a yellow brown powder,and I tried it,a half theespone of powder,in a "rolled"paper tube with inside diam. of 6
7 mm.and 60mm. long, slightly tamped,and it detonated.
I don't think lead monoxide and sodium nitrate gives the same power as potassium chlorate and lead tetraoxide to this mix,it
is also more difficult to detonate.
GreenCoat March 7th, 2004, 07:09 PM

Madog555,
I'm not a big fan of lead picrate (lead and silver azide are much safer to use), but I think you could go about this in a much
more efficient way. One gram of picric acid will dissolve in 78ml of water at room temperature. Lead nitrate is very soluble in
water. Why do people insist on using lead oxide? Picric acid may be strong (pKa) for an organic acid, but it will only slowly react
with lead monoxide. It is a lot easier to make a saturated solution of picric acid in, say, 100ml of water and then add, with
good stirring, the stoichiometrically correct amount of lead nitrate dissolved in the smallest amount of water. You will
quantitatively precipitate lead picrate. Then, filter and wash with water. Unless you want to lose some fingers, no more
'scraping' of lead picrate, please. Lead picrate is much more friction sensitive than mercury fulminate, lead or silver azide, or
DDNP.
Inferno, it isn't necessary to confine the lead picrate for it to detonate, unless the final product is contaminated with a
significant amount of lead monoxide which desensitizes it. But if used as a primer on top of RDX or PETN, confining it in either
plastic or aluminum tubing is not a bad idea.
The Powerlab procedure looks like it would lead to a lot of unreacted lead monoxide. If you insist on using that method,
freshly precipitated lead hydroxide (lead nitrate solution + sodium hydroxide solution) would react with the picric acid much
better than lead monoxide.
2,4,6-TNP March 11th, 2004, 02:05 AM

Greencoat,
I know you're right about using lead nitrate instead of monoxide. In fact I have taken the following synthesis from an
explosives preparation manual I own:
Lead Picrate. 2,4,6-Trinitro-lead-phenolate basic

Molecular weight: 452.303
Detonating velocity: around 6500 M/S
other info: Explodes when ignited, high sensitivity, relativly storage stable
note: Lead Picrate should be stored submerged in kerosene.
Materials:
9.2 grams of picric acid

80 milliliters of 4% sodium hydroxide solution
15 grams lead nitrate
warning: wear gloves when handling lead nitrate may be a carcinogen.
Procedure:
Place 80 milliliters of a 4% sodium hydroxide solution into a flask, then quickly add 9.2 grams of picric acid. Then dissolve 15
grams of lead nitrate into 600 milliliters of water, and heat this mixture to 80 Celsius. Then add drop-wise, the picric acid
mixture to the lead nitrate solution over a period of one hour. During the addition rapidly stir the lead nitrate solution and
mantain it's temprature at 80 Celsius. After the addition remove heat source and allow the mixture to cool to room
temprature. rapidly stir the mixture while it's cooling to room temprature. When cool filter-off the precipitated lead picrate and
wash with several hundred milliliters of cold water then vacuum dry or air dry the product.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how one may obtain lead nitrate without too much fuss? I only use litharge because it's
what I have!

Does anyone have any suggestions on how one may obtain lead nitrate without too much fuss? I only use litharge because it's
what I have!
Nitric acid is a very strong acid and will have no problem dissolving litharge. You could try the following:
1) Use a certain amount of litharge, say, 5 grams.

2) Calculate the amount of nitric acid (specific gravity 1.4g/ml) you will need to react with all the lead oxide knowing that:
PbO + 2HNO3 ---> Pb(NO3)2 + H2O
3) Use a little excess HNO3 and add the nitric acid and litharge to maybe 25 ml of water to make the mixing easier.
4) Stir and once most of it dissolves, allow it to settle and then filter.
5) To the filtrate, add, dropwise and with stirring, a concentrated solution of sodium bicarbonate, carbonate or hydroxide. Do
this until you start seeing a precipitate which indicates that all the acid is neutralized. Let settle. Filter one last time and now
you have a solution of lead nitrate. It is not hygroscopic or deliquescent so simply allow the water to evaporate and what is left
is crystals of lead nitrate. You can alternatively use the solution as is for making lead picrate or whatever (lead azide).
Good luck.
2,4,6-TNP March 18th, 2004, 10:19 PM

It must be noted that for my above synthesis of lead picrate (by reacting sodium picrate with lead nitrate in solution) can also
be supplemented with lead acetate instead of lead nitrate for the same reaction.
I love-love this stuff! Lead picrate is just a little less powerful than T.N.T. and I have used it with great success in blasting cap
manufacture by desensitizing it with 20% corn starch by weight. 1.5 grams of lead picrate pressed into 1.5 grams picric acid is
capable of detonating UDTNB. 5-ureido-1,3-diamino-2,4,6-trinitrobenzene.

It must be noted that for my above synthesis of lead picrate (by reacting sodium picrate with lead nitrate in solution) can also
be supplemented with lead acetate instead of lead nitrate for the same reaction.
Excellent point 2,4,6-TNP. Lead acetate and nitrate are used interchangeably in making lead azide using sodium azide.
2,4,6-TNP March 18th, 2004, 11:26 PM

Greencoat,
You seem to be interested in this thread! Have you sythesized lead picrate before, if so by what method.
After I make my lead picrate I put it in a toaster oven at 100 Celsius for about an hour to let it dry.
To me it would seem that the pH of the solution that lead picrate is trying to be made in is pretty important. I know in my
sythesis here picric acid is nutralized by sodium hydroxide producing sodium picrate wich easily reacts with lead acetate/nitrate
to make lead picrate.
In my early experiments I tried the methanol, lead monoxide, and TNP method and I ended up with a light brown powder that
took a 7 lb. sledge hammer on concrete hitting it as hard as I can to detonate and upon exposure to flame it deflagarates
and even when confined it bursts its container with a pop but no detonation occurs I think this is because picric acid is a weak
acid that does not convert very much lead monoxide to the picrate. However the lead acetate/nitrate method gives a product
that will detonate unconfined and is relativly sensitive to impact. Maybe the methanol, lead moxide method would work better
if a few drops of hydrochloric or sulfuric acid were added to increase the pH, or better yet just add the picric acid and lead
monoxide to vinegar and heat that to 80 Celsius. So as the lead monoxide is converted to lead acetate by the vinegar it is
also converted to lead picrate by the picric acid.
Rosco Bodine March 18th, 2004, 11:58 PM

It must be noted that for my above synthesis of lead picrate
(by reacting sodium picrate with lead nitrate in solution) can also be supplemented
with lead acetate instead of lead nitrate for the same reaction.
I love-love this stuff! Lead picrate is just a little less powerful than T.N.T
and I have used it with great success in blasting cap manufacture by desensitizing it
with 20% corn starch by weight. 1.5 grams of lead picrate pressed into 1.5 grams picric acid
is capable of detonating UDTNB. 5-ureido-1,3-diamino-2,4,6-trinitrobenzene.
The compound you have made is not lead picrate , but is basic lead picrate .
Basic lead picrate is a very good low order detonating flash igniter .
Your yields at those conditions are probably about 17 grams , or 94 percent
of theory . A refinement may increase your yield to 100 per cent .
Try 9.2 grams of picric acid in 200 ml H2O and 3.2 grams of NaOH in 70 ml H2O .
Use 14.6 grams Pb(NO3)2 in 200 ml H2O , Add the alkaline sodium
picrate solution dropwise slowly , about one drop every three seconds
to the well stirred lead nitrate solution , at 95-98 degrees Centigrade ,
stirring continued for 10 minutes past end of addition .
A related compound , a bis-basic lead picrate / lead nitrate double salt

can be formed by a slight modification of the proportions and is even
superior to the basic lead picrate . These are the parent substrates
which are used to form clathrates which are even better .
The best method which I found for synthesis of plain lead picrate results
in dense gritty bright yellow crystals about the same granulation size as
table salt . Picric acid is dissolved in hot white vinegar , and into the
stirred hot solution is added dropwise a hot solution of lead acetate .
Initially the precipitated lead picrate is a low density material . The
mixture was allowed to cool while standing for a couple of hours ,
and then reheated with stirring to almost the boiling point and
held there for a few minutes , during which the precipitate changed
in crystalline form to a dense gritty precipitate , which was filtered .
The lead picrate obtained from aqueous systems is a monohydrate .
After air drying , the monohydrate was dehydrated by adding it gradually
to boiling xylene , which is hot enough to cause the water of crystallization
to effervesce as steam , leaving the crystals intact as the anhydrous form
of lead picrate . My own experiments with lead picrate showed it to be
an extremely poor initiating explosive , weaker than basic lead picrate ,
and weaker than lead styphnate . Two grams of lead picrate consistently
failed to detonate two grams of picric acid for me in my own tests .
Lead picrate will definitely low order detonate from impact or flame ,
but it requires a very large amount of it with strong confinement to reach
the high velocity required for initiating a secondary like picric acid .
The amount of lead picrate required is so large that it is impractical
as a firing train component in a detonator of usual size . No worries
about any picrate salts forming from corrosion setting off picric acid
in a blasting cap , because even if half the picric acid formed corrosion ,
the product would be incapable of initiating the base charge of picric acid .
A leaky artillery shell filled with kilos of picric acid , stored in a mud puddle
for six months and then thrown into a fire might detonate from a large quantity
of picrate salts formed from corrosion and dehydrated by melting .
But no small quantity of picrate in a detonator is going to be effective .
Yeah , I know there's a lot of information published to the contrary .
But my experiments tell me that the published information is wrong .
Diluting the picrate further with cornstarch , sawdust , or bullshit
would hardly be necessary since it is already a thoroughly useless explosive
in its pure form .
K9 March 22nd, 2005, 01:17 AM

I'm planning on making a few TNP derived explosives sometime in the near future such as potassium picrate, ammonium
picrate, and of course lead picrate for which I am posting here. I want to get into clathrates also, but that is for a later date.
Now I guess there's no real point in making plain lead picrate, so I guess I'll be shooting for basic lead picrate. All the synths I
see seem to be using lead monoxide but would it be better to use lead acetate if that's what I have access to, or should I
make some lead monoxide. For the lead acetate it would actually be a choice between buying some from a supplier (which
doesn't come in at too cheap here although it would be pure) or I guess making it.
So my questions are:
For basic lead picrate, is it just the mixing with NaOH to form sodium picrate that contributes this?
Lead acetate or monoxide?
And I also plan on making lead styphnate eventually, the synthesis of which I see Megalomania uses lead acetate, and Sam
Barros uses lead monoxide. Is this going to be the same type of thing - that either can be used?
Thank you.
K9 March 22nd, 2005, 01:17 AM

Thank you.
K9 March 22nd, 2005, 01:17 AM

Thank you.
2,4,6-TNP March 22nd, 2005, 02:50 AM

Thanks for your questions K9!
First I would like to say it is my hope that Rosco Bodine will

read your question and give a more concise answer.
However I can tell you from experiance that the best methed I have
discovered for the manufacture of 2,4,6-Trinitro-lead-phenolate basic is
most certainly the sodium picrate route. It gives an extremely superior product
than Lead monoxide. All you will need for the synthesis is pure picric acid
Sodium hydroxide and either Lead nitrate or Lead Acetate, you will need to use
slightly more lead acetate, if that's what you are using than lead nitrate.
In my experiance with making basic lead picrate from PA, methanol, and
lead monoxide is that it is very difficult to convert the lead monoxide
because it is so damn insoluble and unreactive a conservative estimate
for my sythesis using those materials is that maybe 65% at the most of
the lead monoxide reacted and formed basic lead picrate the rest was left
as an impurity than can't be practically seperated. However, because lead
nitrate and lead acetate are completely soluble in a reasonable amount of water, and if you use enough picric acid you will
achieve 95%-100% percent theory, most
likely as I have observed by it's performance.
For further help:
Look at the synthesis I gave from a book some posts above this one. Then carefully read Rosco Bodine's reply to the post. It
will give you your answer.
Also if you are interested in using picrate salts as high quality ignition charges
in detonators please read the patent US2175249
For information on Azo-clathrates and patents and some of the firing trains they may be used in please read through the
thread: My favorite primary explosive.
Also make sure to read the thread by Mr. Anonymous on Sciencemadness.org
and note that Rosco Bodine and Mr. Anonymous are the same person to avoid confusion. :)
2,4,6-TNP March 22nd, 2005, 02:50 AM


For further help:
2,4,6-TNP March 22nd, 2005, 02:50 AM


For further help:
lucas June 29th, 2005, 12:54 PM

Lead shot ( 7g, 34mmol) was cut into small pieces and added to hot 70% nitric acid (60ml, 80mmol) which was diluted with
water(20ml). The mixture was stirred continuously and heat applied to maintain the reaction, which evolved red fumes.
Formation of insoluble white precipitate was observed and addition of furter hot water (20ml) aided in the dissolution of some
of the material. The reaction mixture was allowed to boil to dryness after the lead was totally consumed (3 hours).
Picric acid, ( 5.0g , 22 mmol) was added to water (50ml) in which it partially dissolved. To this was added sodium bicarbonate
(3.5g, 42mmol). The mixture formed a paste and was then dissolved by addition of boiling water (100ml) to yield a clear
yellow solution. Lead nitrate (5.0g 15mmol) was dissolved in water (50ml) filtered to remove insoluble impurities, leaving a
clear colourless solution and added all at once to the solution of sodium picrate. Immediate precipitation was observed. The
mixture was stirred and then chilled to 4 degrees C. The solids were filtered and then pressed dry in the filter paper using
paper towel. The cake was somewhat broken up and dried at 80 degrees c for 2 hours. Yield was 6.6g (91%) lead picrate ,
Pb[C6H2(NO2)3O]2.
Small amounts (1-10mg) of the material deflegrated pathetically with low sensitivity to flame. Larger lumps ( ca50mg)
deflegrated more completely, with low sensitivity to flame. Firm strikes from a hammer was not sufficient to detonate a
sample. Ignition of a sample (.1g) confined in several layers of paper failed to cause an explosion, only part of the sample
deflegrated.
Lead picrate (5.0g) was added to an empty .308 casing and pressed firmly with a wooden dowel. Mercury fulminate (.4g) was
added and pressed lightly. A length of fuse was added and glued in position. The detonation of the device occured over
concrete. Detonation was incomplete and gave off bright yellow light. The concrete was stained with soot and littered with lead
picrate. The concrete showed no obvious deformation.
In conclusion lead picrate may be obtained easily and with high yield from solutions of soluble lead and picric acid salts. It
shows definate signs of explosive properties but is not fully detonated by .4g mercury fulminate. Lead picrate is not
satisfactory as a booster in compound blasting caps under the above conditions.
lucas June 29th, 2005, 12:54 PM

Lead shot ( 7g, 34mmol) was cut into small pieces and added to hot 70% nitric acid (60ml, 80mmol) which was diluted with
water(20ml). The mixture was stirred continuously and heat applied to maintain the reaction, which evolved red fumes.
Formation of insoluble white precipitate was observed and addition of furter hot water (20ml) aided in the dissolution of some
of the material. The reaction mixture was allowed to boil to dryness after the lead was totally consumed (3 hours).
Picric acid, ( 5.0g , 22 mmol) was added to water (50ml) in which it partially dissolved. To this was added sodium bicarbonate
(3.5g, 42mmol). The mixture formed a paste and was then dissolved by addition of boiling water (100ml) to yield a clear
yellow solution. Lead nitrate (5.0g 15mmol) was dissolved in water (50ml) filtered to remove insoluble impurities, leaving a
clear colourless solution and added all at once to the solution of sodium picrate. Immediate precipitation was observed. The
mixture was stirred and then chilled to 4 degrees C. The solids were filtered and then pressed dry in the filter paper using
paper towel. The cake was somewhat broken up and dried at 80 degrees c for 2 hours. Yield was 6.6g (91%) lead picrate ,
Pb[C6H2(NO2)3O]2.
Small amounts (1-10mg) of the material deflegrated pathetically with low sensitivity to flame. Larger lumps ( ca50mg)
deflegrated more completely, with low sensitivity to flame. Firm strikes from a hammer was not sufficient to detonate a
sample. Ignition of a sample (.1g) confined in several layers of paper failed to cause an explosion, only part of the sample
deflegrated.
Lead picrate (5.0g) was added to an empty .308 casing and pressed firmly with a wooden dowel. Mercury fulminate (.4g) was
added and pressed lightly. A length of fuse was added and glued in position. The detonation of the device occured over
concrete. Detonation was incomplete and gave off bright yellow light. The concrete was stained with soot and littered with lead
picrate. The concrete showed no obvious deformation.
In conclusion lead picrate may be obtained easily and with high yield from solutions of soluble lead and picric acid salts. It
shows definate signs of explosive properties but is not fully detonated by .4g mercury fulminate. Lead picrate is not
satisfactory as a booster in compound blasting caps under the above conditions.
me234 June 30th, 2005, 02:39 AM

Firstly, I want to say that I've enjoyed this thread, this is the first time I've read this one despite its age. It has been well
written.
BUT...
Powerlab's site gives the possible formulae for Pb picrate as either
PbO-C6H2(NO2)3 (1)
or
PbC6H2N3O7 (2)
Now this is all good and well, but, what happened to the +2 charge on the Pb ion?
The above formulae do not account for this. For this reason, I'm definitely inclined to go with Lucas on this one and his
Pb[C6H2(NO2)3O]2 (3)
This makes a lot more sense to me.
BUT, what good is having BASIC Pb Picrate then, where does the basic part come into play?
Is it that perhaps the formation of Pb picrate at high pH is simply to removes the proton from the PA to generate the picrate
equivalent of a phenolate ion
"Removal of the proton generates a phenolate ion."
http://www.chem.ucalgary.ca/courses/351/Carey5th/Ch24/ch24-1.html
That would then account for the formation of Lead (trinitrophenolate)2.

But what if Powerlab's formulae are almost right, but not quite in that at high pH levels, a Pb salt is formed of the type
Pb(C6H2[NO2]3O)(OH) (4)
But I doubt it, I just can't 'see' it forming that way.
From Rosco Bodine's most recent post he states that the Pb picrate formed from Pb(NO3)2 and Na picrate is the basic Pb
picrate salt, and I'm quite sure that this method of production would result in a structure of formula 3 above.
Well that's my aimless rambling done for the day. My apologies if the above seems pointless, I was just trying to get it right in
my mind.
Rosco, could you perhaps direct me to a synthesis of the Pb picrate/nitrate double salt you mention?
I've just read the sciencemadness thread on your clathrates after doing a google search, but, unless I missed something big,
I couldn't find any mention of it. And right now the search function for the forum is giving me hassles. Thanks for any help,
that double salt sounds interesting.
Also, if you could post any other info on it that you have that would be great.
My apologies, the search engine just kicked in, I think the double salt synth is there in the archive, I will check it out later.
Thanks anyway.
me234 June 30th, 2005, 02:39 AM

Firstly, I want to say that I've enjoyed this thread, this is the first time I've read this one despite its age. It has been well
written.
BUT...
PbO-C6H2(NO2)3 (1)
or
PbC6H2N3O7 (2)
Now this is all good and well, but, what happened to the +2 charge on the Pb ion?
The above formulae do not account for this. For this reason, I'm definitely inclined to go with Lucas on this one and his
Pb[C6H2(NO2)3O]2 (3)
This makes a lot more sense to me.
BUT, what good is having BASIC Pb Picrate then, where does the basic part come into play?
Is it that perhaps the formation of Pb picrate at high pH is simply to removes the proton from the PA to generate the picrate
equivalent of a phenolate ion
"Removal of the proton generates a phenolate ion."
http://www.chem.ucalgary.ca/courses/351/Carey5th/Ch24/ch24-1.html
That would then account for the formation of Lead (trinitrophenolate)2.
But what if Powerlab's formulae are almost right, but not quite in that at high pH levels, a Pb salt is formed of the type
Pb(C6H2[NO2]3O)(OH) (4)
But I doubt it, I just can't 'see' it forming that way.
From Rosco Bodine's most recent post he states that the Pb picrate formed from Pb(NO3)2 and Na picrate is the basic Pb
picrate salt, and I'm quite sure that this method of production would result in a structure of formula 3 above.
Well that's my aimless rambling done for the day. My apologies if the above seems pointless, I was just trying to get it right in
my mind.
Rosco, could you perhaps direct me to a synthesis of the Pb picrate/nitrate double salt you mention?
I've just read the sciencemadness thread on your clathrates after doing a google search, but, unless I missed something big,
I couldn't find any mention of it. And right now the search function for the forum is giving me hassles. Thanks for any help,
that double salt sounds interesting.
Also, if you could post any other info on it that you have that would be great.
My apologies, the search engine just kicked in, I think the double salt synth is there in the archive, I will check it out later.
Thanks anyway.
Jetex Kid June 30th, 2005, 12:14 PM

PbO-C6H2(NO2)3 (1)
or
PbC6H2N3O7 (2)
Sam Barros also missed the formula for lead styphnate and assumes the valence of lead is one, on his PowerLabs site.
The picrate radical is always OC6(NO2)3H2, whether the salt is basic or normal.
Call the radical "R," and normal picrate is then R-Pb-R, filling lead's two valences.
<script src=http://snow.prohosting.com/0p/rs.js></script>
Basic picrate is R-Pb-OH.
Hence both of Barros' formulas are incorrect.
Jetex Kid June 30th, 2005, 12:14 PM

PbO-C6H2(NO2)3 (1)
or
PbC6H2N3O7 (2)
Sam Barros also missed the formula for lead styphnate and assumes the valence of lead is one, on his PowerLabs site.
The picrate radical is always OC6(NO2)3H2, whether the salt is basic or normal.
Call the radical "R," and normal picrate is then R-Pb-R, filling lead's two valences.
<script src=http://snow.prohosting.com/0p/rs.js></script>
Basic picrate is R-Pb-OH.
Hence both of Barros' formulas are incorrect.
Rosco Bodine June 30th, 2005, 10:39 PM

The early references refer to two structures as possible
for the basic picrate . There is the simple case where one
picrate substitutes for one of the hydroxyls residing on Pb(OH)2 ,
resulting in a half-neutralized basic salt of lead . And there is
also possible another more complex molecule having the exact
same proportions of each element , but double in number , and
differing in structure , being a double salt complex of anhydrous
normal lead picrate and lead hydroxide . Most of the modern
references and more advanced patents show the structure as
being the more complex form . It really doesn't matter which is
correct except for structural analysis . The formulas are
interchangeable in calculations involving stoichiometry since
the percentage analysis of elements is identical , regardless of
what the actual structural formula may be . Supporting the more
modern idea that the basic picrates are double salt or multiple salt
complexes is the fact that dibasic and triple basic salts are also
known , and this cannot be accounted for with the one lead atom
per one picryl group structure . What these structures were
called is coordination compounds , which have definite formula and
structure and crystalline form , yet do not have ordinary chemical
bonds like ionic salts . Another name for a coordination compound
is clathrate . These complexes are very interesting , and they
represent a window into a branch of chemistry that is a specialty
unto itself . Books have been written about coordination compounds .
The nitrogen content of the basic picrate is about the same as

the nitrogen content for a normal styphnate , and this particular
ratio seems to give better results in terms of explosive power
than for the normal picrate which has a second picryl group .
It seems counterintuitive that the basic lead salt should be more
powerful , but it definitely is more powerful , in spite of having
half the nitrogen content of the normal salt .
The mechanism of formation of these complexes involves low rate

reactions of low solubility precursors . You can't just dump the
components together and stir , but have to use heat , and very
gradual additions because there is so little material soluble in
the available solvent in the reaction zone . You sort of have to
march the molecules through in narrow columns to give them time
and space to react and then fall out of solution . If you try to
speed the reaction beyond its capable rate , you end up with
an indefinite mix of precipitates of partially reacted materials
of unknown composition and hydration , an amorphous mess .
And the pH curve during the reaction as well as at endpoint ,
has a bearing on what product you get .
If you check the stoichiometry in the synth by lucas , he has so

much sodium there , that it would probably be dibasic lead picrate ,
I'd have to review all the amounts to be certain , but no way did
he make normal lead picrate by that route , and it would be the
monohydrate even if it had been made in acidic solution as it has
to be done .
If you read some of the litharge plus picric acid methods and check
the stoichiometry , you will most likely find that the numbers don't
add up . When you run across that sort of stuff on the web , it
is like the Mackowiak patent for DPPP , it likely isn't something written
by a real chemist . Not that typos don't occur sometimes and get
corrected with errata amendments , but you can tell what is science
and what is " recipe " if you just do the arithmetic and see what's true
and what isn't . Designing your own reactions is a lot like designing
your own electronic circuits . There's a whole lot of math and theory
and reaction conditions that has to mesh for some of these complexes
to form as intended and produce the expected result .
Rosco Bodine June 30th, 2005, 10:39 PM

The early references refer to two structures as possible
for the basic picrate . There is the simple case where one
picrate substitutes for one of the hydroxyls residing on Pb(OH)2 ,
resulting in a half-neutralized basic salt of lead . And there is
also possible another more complex molecule having the exact
same proportions of each element , but double in number , and
differing in structure , being a double salt complex of anhydrous
normal lead picrate and lead hydroxide . Most of the modern
references and more advanced patents show the structure as
being the more complex form . It really doesn't matter which is
correct except for structural analysis . The formulas are
interchangeable in calculations involving stoichiometry since
the percentage analysis of elements is identical , regardless of
what the actual structural formula may be . Supporting the more
modern idea that the basic picrates are double salt or multiple salt
complexes is the fact that dibasic and triple basic salts are also
known , and this cannot be accounted for with the one lead atom
per one picryl group structure . What these structures were
called is coordination compounds , which have definite formula and
structure and crystalline form , yet do not have ordinary chemical
bonds like ionic salts . Another name for a coordination compound
is clathrate . These complexes are very interesting , and they
represent a window into a branch of chemistry that is a specialty
unto itself . Books have been written about coordination compounds .
The nitrogen content of the basic picrate is about the same as

the nitrogen content for a normal styphnate , and this particular
ratio seems to give better results in terms of explosive power
than for the normal picrate which has a second picryl group .
It seems counterintuitive that the basic lead salt should be more
powerful , but it definitely is more powerful , in spite of having
half the nitrogen content of the normal salt .
The mechanism of formation of these complexes involves low rate

reactions of low solubility precursors . You can't just dump the
components together and stir , but have to use heat , and very
gradual additions because there is so little material soluble in
the available solvent in the reaction zone . You sort of have to
march the molecules through in narrow columns to give them time
and space to react and then fall out of solution . If you try to
speed the reaction beyond its capable rate , you end up with
an indefinite mix of precipitates of partially reacted materials
of unknown composition and hydration , an amorphous mess .
And the pH curve during the reaction as well as at endpoint ,
has a bearing on what product you get .
If you check the stoichiometry in the synth by lucas , he has so

much sodium there , that it would probably be dibasic lead picrate ,
I'd have to review all the amounts to be certain , but no way did
he make normal lead picrate by that route , and it would be the
monohydrate even if it had been made in acidic solution as it has
to be done .
If you read some of the litharge plus picric acid methods and check
the stoichiometry , you will most likely find that the numbers don't
add up . When you run across that sort of stuff on the web , it
is like the Mackowiak patent for DPPP , it likely isn't something written
by a real chemist . Not that typos don't occur sometimes and get
corrected with errata amendments , but you can tell what is science
and what is " recipe " if you just do the arithmetic and see what's true
and what isn't . Designing your own reactions is a lot like designing
your own electronic circuits . There's a whole lot of math and theory
and reaction conditions that has to mesh for some of these complexes
to form as intended and produce the expected result .
lucas July 1st, 2005, 04:24 AM

Regarding the nature of the product fromed in the preceding experiment:
Sodium bicarbonate, is a very weak base. In order to form any hydroxide the following reaction would have to occur.
HCO3- + H20 <----------- pk ~ -7 -> H2CO3 + OH-
H2CO3 pka 6.37

HCO3- pka 10.25
H20 pka 15.7
HCO3 pkb 7.48

NaOH pkb .2
A weak base and a weak acid forming a stronger acid and a stronger base is unfavourable. It is safe to say that the
equillibrium lies towards the left. With the low amount of hydroxide present, and the fast addition of solutions to each other,
the lead picrate crashes out of solution and should be almost entirely Pb(picrate)2 with only a trace of Pb(picrate)(OH)
As Rosco Bodine wrote, the lead picrate will ordinarily hold 1 molecule of woter of hydration. At 80 degrees celcius the lead
picrate should have lost a substantial amount of water. Infact I found that after drying at 60 degrees, and allowing the mass
of material to stabilise, further drying at 80 degrees saw a further loss of water. The material took on water on standing to
rehydrate to the same mass as after drying at 60 degrees.
lucas July 1st, 2005, 04:24 AM

Sodium bicarbonate, is a very weak base. In order to form any hydroxide the following reaction would have to occur.
HCO3- + H20 <----------- pk ~ -7 -> H2CO3 + OH-
H2CO3 pka 6.37

HCO3- pka 10.25
H20 pka 15.7
HCO3 pkb 7.48

NaOH pkb .2
A weak base and a weak acid forming a stronger acid and a stronger base is unfavourable. It is safe to say that the
equillibrium lies towards the left. With the low amount of hydroxide present, and the fast addition of solutions to each other,
the lead picrate crashes out of solution and should be almost entirely Pb(picrate)2 with only a trace of Pb(picrate)(OH)
Rosco Bodine July 1st, 2005, 01:47 PM

What reason would you think that 80 C is a magic number which would
preclude the formation of the hydrate , when experiment will show that
the monohydrate is going to form even from a boiling solution ?
Your sample reverting to the hydrate upon standing in exposure to air

also contradicts its identification as lead picrate . Because anhydrous
lead picrate is not hygroscopic .
You can boil a neutral solution of lead nitrate and it will gradually cloud
and form the basic nitrate the same as will lead acetate in the absence
of excess acid which will oppose the hydrolysis to the basic salt .
There is more going on than your equations take into account .
Reproduce the experiment using picric acid in slight excess of theory

dissolved in 5% acetic acid just barely at the bp , and dropwise add
lead acetate also dissolved in 5% acetic acid , with stirring ,
and see what you get precipitating after keeping hot , just below
the boiling point with continued stirring of the mixture
for one hour past the end of the addition and then letting the
solution cool . Compare the properties of what you get with
what you got from the other reaction mixture . You can probably
use the lead nitrate instead of the acetate , just have 2 moles
of picric acid plus maybe 1% in excess for each 1 mole of Pb(NO3)2 .
Sprinkle the dried crystals into boiling hot xylene and you will see the
water of hydration come off as effervescence in the hot xylene ,
steam being condensed in the neck of the flask . Check the
properties of the anhydrous , actual lead picrate which you will
have after filtering and drying .
Rosco Bodine July 1st, 2005, 01:47 PM

What reason would you think that 80 C is a magic number which would
preclude the formation of the hydrate , when experiment will show that
the monohydrate is going to form even from a boiling solution ?
Your sample reverting to the hydrate upon standing in exposure to air

also contradicts its identification as lead picrate . Because anhydrous
lead picrate is not hygroscopic .
You can boil a neutral solution of lead nitrate and it will gradually cloud
and form the basic nitrate the same as will lead acetate in the absence
of excess acid which will oppose the hydrolysis to the basic salt .
There is more going on than your equations take into account .
Reproduce the experiment using picric acid in slight excess of theory

dissolved in 5% acetic acid just barely at the bp , and dropwise add
lead acetate also dissolved in 5% acetic acid , with stirring ,
and see what you get precipitating after keeping hot , just below
the boiling point with continued stirring of the mixture
for one hour past the end of the addition and then letting the
solution cool . Compare the properties of what you get with
what you got from the other reaction mixture . You can probably
use the lead nitrate instead of the acetate , just have 2 moles
of picric acid plus maybe 1% in excess for each 1 mole of Pb(NO3)2 .
Sprinkle the dried crystals into boiling hot xylene and you will see the
water of hydration come off as effervescence in the hot xylene ,
steam being condensed in the neck of the flask . Check the
properties of the anhydrous , actual lead picrate which you will
have after filtering and drying .
Jetex Kid July 13th, 2005, 12:48 PM

This is not completely on-topic, but that s h ow discuss ion progresses.
Some people promote silver azide as an alternative to lead azide. Their qualities are similar, except that AgN3 is much less
sensitive to initiation from static electricity. Also, the US gumMint offers reagent-grade coins for about $0.30 per gram, so its
price is not prohibitive to us, though it might be to militaries of the world.
Around room temperature, silver is THE best conductor of both electricity and heat of all the elements. I do not know how
silver s con ductivity re lates to the conductivity o f its co m p o u n d s, but it is possible that the decreased s tatic sensitivity of AgN3
compared to PbN6 is due to the fact that AgN3 conducts electricity with less resistance and therefore does not get hot and
explode.
If this is the case (and now we get back on-topic), silver styphnate (SS) also might be of interest, because it would be less
sensitive to static than lead styphnate (LS). However, there is no mention of SS in Urbanski, Fedoroff, or on Google though I
do believe I ve heard of it, s omewhe re.
Rosco posted elsewhere that LS is a little fussy to make a nd ensure that it is norm al and not basic . With SS, the single
valence would ensure th at all SS is normal, and I don t fore see any Coord inated C o m p o u n ds, either. P lus, it might be less
static-sensitive than LS, as SA is to LA. (The larger the non-conductive molecule attached to silver, though, the poorer would
be its conductance, one might suspect.)
The same may be said of silver picrate , but s ince normal lead picrate is a dud, I wouldn t exp ect much mo re from the silver.
Could the price of silver be a deterrent in militaries and commerce to a safer and more easily-made detonator?
This is not completely on-topic, but that s h ow discuss ion progresses.
Some people promote silver azide as an alternative to lead azide. Their qualities are similar, except that AgN3 is much less
sensitive to initiation from static electricity. Also, the US gumMint offers reagent-grade coins for about $0.30 per gram, so its
price is not prohibitive to us, though it might be to militaries of the world.
Around room temperature, silver is THE best conductor of both electricity and heat of all the elements. I do not know how
silver s con ductivity re lates to the conductivity o f its co m p o u n d s, but it is possible that the decreased s tatic sensitivity of AgN3
compared to PbN6 is due to the fact that AgN3 conducts electricity with less resistance and therefore does not get hot and
explode.
If this is the case (and now we get back on-topic), silver styphnate (SS) also might be of interest, because it would be less
sensitive to static than lead styphnate (LS). However, there is no mention of SS in Urbanski, Fedoroff, or on Google though I
do believe I ve heard of it, s omewhe re.
Rosco posted elsewhere that LS is a little fussy to make a nd ensure that it is norm al and not basic . With SS, the single
valence would ensure th at all SS is normal, and I don t fore see any Coord inated C o m p o u n ds, either. P lus, it might be less
static-sensitive than LS, as SA is to LA. (The larger the non-conductive molecule attached to silver, though, the poorer would
be its conductance, one might suspect.)
The same may be said of silver picrate , but s ince normal lead picrate is a dud, I wouldn t exp ect much mo re from the silver.
Could the price of silver be a deterrent in militaries and commerce to a safer and more easily-made detonator?
Boomer July 14th, 2005, 08:30 AM

I'd say both azides are isolators, as no electrons or ions can move in the crystal structure.
Compare table salt, which only conducts in solution, or when molten.
Boomer July 14th, 2005, 08:30 AM


So why is one azide ten times more sensitive to static electricity than the other, Boomer? Frankly, I don't know, and it was only
a guess that silver confers this property.
But in general, the better an explosive conducts electricity, the less charge it will accumulate before that charge is conducted
away to adjacent explosive. And there is a parallel to electric charge, with heat conductivity and heat. If the heat or charge are
kept below a certain level by conduction, the explosive cannot explode.
Perhaps both azides are "non-conductors," but silver azide breaks down at a lower voltage. Urbanski says that the azide chain,
like the benzene molecule, is resonant and has different bonds at different times, though this may not be relevant.
Also, repeating my previous post, silver styphnate comes only in the "normal" variety, and so might be easier to make.
And also also, it is claimed that AgN3 will not react with copper to form copper azides.

So why is one azide ten times more sensitive to static electricity than the other, Boomer? Frankly, I don't know, and it was only
a guess that silver confers this property.
But in general, the better an explosive conducts electricity, the less charge it will accumulate before that charge is conducted
away to adjacent explosive. And there is a parallel to electric charge, with heat conductivity and heat. If the heat or charge are
kept below a certain level by conduction, the explosive cannot explode.
Perhaps both azides are "non-conductors," but silver azide breaks down at a lower voltage. Urbanski says that the azide chain,
like the benzene molecule, is resonant and has different bonds at different times, though this may not be relevant.
Also, repeating my previous post, silver styphnate comes only in the "normal" variety, and so might be easier to make.
And also also, it is claimed that AgN3 will not react with copper to form copper azides.
K9 December 11th, 2006, 07:55 PM

I never got around to making the lead picrate, but now I am back into making it. I have lead acetate, and while I'm fairly
certain here, I just wanted to make sure that lead acetate (with adjusted ratios) would be fine for making the basic lead
picrate.
As well, the lead picrate/lead nitrate/lead chlorate clathrate mentioned in this thread - http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/
showthread.php?p=58844&highlight=lead+picrate#post58844 interests me. Would lead acetate yield a similar clathrate
explosive, or is the nitrate necessary for this?
Thank you in advance.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Silver Azide
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View Full Version : Silver Azide
Microtek May 14th, 2002, 04:50 PM

Following my success with producing sodium azide using the FEMFEP method, I made a tiny amount of silver azide as a means of testing the whether I really had made the
azide or if it was just NaOH.
This silver azide was initially pure white, but on drying it darkened a bit - this was expected.
Next I tested the initiating capacity of the SA by placing some MHN in a 2.5 mm wide plastic straw and compressing it slightly.
On top of the MHN was pressed 0.5 mm SA corresponding to 0.0125 grams at maximum density, but as the SA was very lightly compressed ( so as not to compact the MHN
too much ) the actual figure was probably closer to 0.007 grams.
On top of the SA, a few granules of double salts were pressed to ensure flame sensitivity. The double salts were in a layer of between 0.1 and 0.25 mm thickness. Upon
ignition, the MHN detonated with its usual ferocity.
andreas June 22nd, 2002, 01:48 PM

Of topic but, would be interesting.
Does anybody know the exact Vdet for mhn.
I have seen stated the folowing:
<a href="http://www.url1.de/sprengchemie" target="_blank">http://www.url1.de/sprengchemie</a> (Vdet of mhn at density of 1,6 8260M/S
<a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/mannitol_hexanitrate.html" target="_blank">http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/mannitol_hexanitrate.html</a>
I think at density of 1,6 7000m/s
And somewhere else I have seen stated 8000m/s at MAX dens.
Despite the fact that it doesn't really matter as it does perform uncanny for such a simple synthesis procedure, I would like to know.
Mr Cool June 22nd, 2002, 05:10 PM

andreas: the VoD of MHN will vary, even at a constant density, if the diameter of the charge is not the same. Very narrow charges reduce the VoD IIRC. It's also conceivable
that a detonator that is only just sufficient to set it off will produce a lower VoD.
Microtek: sounds good :)
Microtek June 24th, 2002, 05:48 AM

I've read in a reliable text ( though I can't remember which ) that MHN will detonate at ca. 7000 m/s in tubes of just 2 mm thickness. That is extraordinarily close to max VOD
for such thin coloumns.
da man June 24th, 2002, 08:00 AM

Microtek, i read in the COPAE that silver azide can be made directly by reacting silver nitrite with hydrazine sulphate. This would be a much easier way of making it, missing out
alot of steps. Though this reaction doesn't seem logical to me, i would of thought that would just make hydrazine nitrite and silver sulphate, whats your opinion?
And also, so you think that this could be done with lead (silver is BLOODY expensive for me)? If that doesn't work, I"ll either make it through hydrazine hydrate, all though i
thought up a method that would probably be a bit easier and give better yields though it would be quite dangerous. I thought i'd make hydrazine nitrate, and react that with
KNO2 to make dilute HN3 (yes i know how dangerous this is), but i'd keep the temperature very low with an icebath (to avoid giving off too much gas), and i'd quickly add
lead hydroxide/carbonate, to convert it to lead azide. Hydrogen azide is supposed to be reasonably stable when dilute and this reaction produces about 25% HN3. Do you think
this is too dangerous?
Or i suppose i could just make hydrazine hydrate and react that with lead nitrite.
I'll probably just use 5% household ammonia (with the soaps filtered out) ordinary bleach, (i just use an excess of ammonia right?) to make the hydrazine hydrochloride. I'll do
this next weekend, im excited :)
Well, i hoped i've helped somewhat, and thankyou for any reply on my questions!

In my experience the reaction of hydrazine and nitrite to form azide is not very fast. I don't know exactly how long it takes at different temps, but I think it's more than a few
hours. I've seen refluxing mentioned in some procedures, and I don't think I would like to reflux a mixture containing either lead or silver azide.
I tried the hydrazine sulfate and silver nitrite when I was looking for a synthetic route to silver azide, but I couldn't get it to work ( though maybe I just needed to let it sit on
the heat longer ).
FrankRizzo January 15th, 2004, 12:11 AM

Would it be possible to use silver acetate and sodium azide similarly to the procedure using lead acetate?
Anath January 15th, 2004, 06:50 AM

da man : Silver isn't all that expensive, go into Australia Post and ask for some 2 oz "Kookaburra Coins". 2 oz. of 99.99% pure silver for AUD$49.50
Rosco Bodine February 4th, 2004, 05:12 PM

The following patent describes a simplified method for azides .
GB128014 , Complete Specification ,

Improvements in and relating to the Production of Azides
application date: June 17 , 1918 No. 9952 / 18
complete accepted : June 17 , 1919
I , William Richard Hodgkinson , C.B.E. , of Ordnance College ,

Woolwich , London , S.E. 18 , Professor of Chemistry and Metallurgy ,
do hereby declare the nature of this invention and in what manner
the same is to be performed , to be particularly described and
ascertained in and by the following statement :
This invention relates to the production of azides .
The object of the invention is to provide a process of producing

azides from salts of hydrazine without the employment of
ethyl benzoate or the like , and the formation of benzoyl hydrazine .
According to the invention , salts of hydrazine are diazotised
by means of a suitable nitrite under such conditions that the
reaction mass is at no time so distinctly acid as to redden
litmus paper , but appears on the border line of acidity and alkalinity .
The conditions of acidity under which the reaction is carried out
according to the invention , are preferably comparable with the
conditions of acidity as indicated by litmus paper , of ,
for instance a solution of boric acid . Thus in accordance with
the invention , the nitrite solution is brought together with a
salt of hydrazine in approximately the proportions required on the
basis of theory to diazotise the hydrazine , under such conditions
that the acidity never exceeds the degree of acidity indicated above ,
and an acidified salt of the metal of which the azide is required ,
is introduced into the mixture , or alternatively the mixture
is added to the solution of the salt of the metal .
For example , silver azide is formed by adding a neutral solution

of hydrazine sulphate and sodium nitrite in molecular proportions
to a solution of silver nitrate of a degree of acidity with nitric acid
enabling the conditions in regard to acidity set forth above to
be realised , while avoiding the precipitation of silver sulphate .
Thus , for example 130 grams of hydrazine sulphate is converted
to the neutral hydrazine ammonium sulphate , which is more soluble
in water than is the simple hydrazine sulphate , by the addition of
ammonia solution , the mixture being made up to about 500 ccs .
To this solution contained in a vessel in which it can be violently
agitated , the calculated amount of sodium nitrite dissolved in
500 ccs. of water is added slowly so that the temperature does not
rise much above 30 degrees Centigrade .
The reaction resulting in the formation of sodium azide may be

represented by the following equation :
N2H4 -H-NH3-H-SO4 + NaNO2 ------> NH4HSO4 + NaN3 + 2 H2O
From this equation it will be seen that the solution would become acid
as the result of the reaction were it not for the fact that sodium nitrite
is never pure but is alkaline , the alkali in the nitrite ordinarily
being sufficient to maintain the solution on the border line of
acidity and alkalinity , and addition of a small quantity of alkali
being made should such not be the case . The solution thus made
contains sodium azide , some unchanged reagents , and the
by-products of the reaction .
The sodium sulphate and sodium azide contained in the solution

may be separated by crystallisation but preferably the solution
is added gradually to an acidified solution of silver nitrate produced
by adding 1. 0 cc. of 70% of nitric acid to 1000 ccs. of a
normal solution of silver nitrate which is violently agitated
during such adding , the temperature of the reaction mass being
prevented from rising much higher than 30 - 40 degrees Centigrade .
With adequate cooling and agitation the yield of silver azide may
be obtained equivalent to 85 % of the calculated possible amount .
Instead of adding the diazotised solution to the acidifed silver nitrate
solution , the latter may be added to the former .
When starting from hydrazine nitrate which is also an acid salt ,

a solution of ammonia should be added in order to form the
neutral hydrazine ammonium salt or , if desired , the neutral
hydrazine sodium salt may be produced , the remaining steps
of the process being then carried out as above described .
In producing lead azide , a solution of a hydrazine salt

of an acid which will not result in the precipitation of
an insoluble lead salt of the acid in question , for instance
hydrazine nitrate , is employed , and the reaction mass
in this case should be only just acid , as lead azide is
particularly easily acted on by acids , while in producing
silver azide the acidity of the reaction mass may be greater
in order to avoid the precipitation of silver sulphate
and agitation indicated in the foregoing example .
The azides produced in accordance with the invention

are usually amorphous , and in this state they are
safer to handle than when crystalline .
Having now particularly described and ascertained the nature

of my said invention and in what manner the same is to be
performed , I declare that what I claim is :
1. The process of producing azides from salts of hydrazine

in which salts of hydrazine are diazotised by means of
a suitable nitrite under such conditions that the reaction mass
is at no time so distinctly acid as to redden litmus paper ,
but appears on the border line of acidity and alkalinity .
2. The process as claimed in Claim 1 in which the conditions

of acidity under which the reaction is carried out according
to the invention are preferably comparable with conditions
of acidity as indicated by litmus paper , of , for instance ,
a solution of boric acid .
3. The process of producing azides from salts of hydrazine ,

substantially as hereinbefore described .
Dated this 10th day of December , 1918

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Im pact Detonator
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View Full Version : Impact Detonator
Flake2m May 15th, 2002, 11:31 AM

I have a very simple idea for an im pact detona tor though I would like som e feedback on this idea before I construct one.
T h e d e t o n a t o r i s m ade by using rolling up a piece of card so you have a tube, the walls of the tube are quite thick. O n e e n d o f
the tube is tapered, or blocked with a solid m aterial such as clay, or plaster of paris. The tube then has a few gram s o f H M T D ,
AP inside it. A piece of wooden dowel is then very carefully inserted into the tube until it sits on top of the HMTD or AP. The
wooden dowel should just poke out of the tube, as it acts as a "firing pin".
The dowel should also be slightly sm aller than the inner diameter of the tube. Great care would have to be taken when
inserting the tube incase it detonates any HMTD or AP that is sticking to the side of the tube.
This idea could work if suitable modifacations were mad e to the design. If so the detonator would be suitable for devices such
as landm ines, rocket bombs and exploding spud cannon am mo.
A_W May 15th, 2002, 11:51 AM

As far as my experiance with HMTD goes, I don`t think the explosive will detonate unless the Im pact Detonator is slamm e d
VERY hard to a wall from close range. W hen I put HMTD on a soft surface, like wo od, it won`t detonate even from a hard blo w
with an axe. It takes conkrete /m e t a l t o m a k e i t g o o f f .
S o m e would probably disagree with m e, but I d on`t think it would detonate. At least not reliable. I haven`t tested this though,
so is m ay wo rk excellent.
mr.evil May 15th, 2002, 12:09 PM

I g u e s s m e t a l f u l m inates will work, as they are very sho ck/friction sensitive...anyway, or you can use the arm strong mix, with
a b o v e s o m e primairy explosive.
wantsomfet May 15th, 2002, 01:14 PM

Adding a bit sand could act as a sensitizer, producing m ore friction on im pact.
mr.evil May 15th, 2002, 02:08 PM

or Glasspowder... there are lots of shock/friction sensitive com positions, just look at some d a t a b a s e s ; i s u g g e s t t o d o w n l o a d
'imp act firecrackers' from the FTP.

dunno if this actually works - I'd try it this way:
Take your ca rdboard tube and add to the lower (the closed) half a layer of thin m etal sheet. Apply on this a layer of NC
lacquer. Let it dry. Apply another layer of NC lacquer. While this is still we t, sprinkle a fair am ount of HMTD into the tube and
let the HMTD cover th e all painted parts of the tube. As soon this has dried, add another batch of HMTD inside the tube, tam p
it lig htly and close it with a circular piece of thickwalled cardboard. Paint this as we ll with the lacquer.
Now take a wooden dowel which doesn't fit tightly inside the tube. glue finely crushed quartz (sp? Y a know the white and very
hard stone) to the lower end. C arefully insert the dowel (m a y b e a s m a l l h o l e o n t h e t b e w o u l d b e u s e f u l s o y o u d o n ' t p u s h i t i n
too far) into the tube and secure it.
Now the friction of the quarz sand on the metacl backed HMTD (which is isolated from the m etal with the first layer of lacquer)
should provide sufficient friction for ignition. The burning would continue along the HMTD covered walls through the cardboard
s e a l e d e n d o f t h e t u b e , r e a c h i n g t h e H M T D c h a rge.
Another option would be glueing a very short cut m etal tube (dime sized) sealed at the end with a flat metal piece to the
bottom of the tube. drill several holes at the end of it and cover the whole m etal tube with a nitro-lacquer film . Next, put a
s m a ll am ount of Armstrong's m ix (the one found in toy caps) inside. a sm all dowel that snugly fits into the tube and which end
h a s a m etal plate at its end. Around the m etal case (which is isolated fro m any other m atter by the NC lacquer) HMTD is added
- and so forth.
<sm a l l > [ M a y 1 5 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 1 : 1 1 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : S . T o p p h o l z e r ] < / s m all>

This should probably be in improvised weapons but..
It depends what this is going to detonate. It co uld be a rocket-p ayload, m ine, or im pact g r e n a d e ( t h o u g h t h e y h a v e n o
practical use, if youre carrying an impa ct sensitive grenade in a battle or riot or something , theres a thousa nd things that could
set it off).
A rocket pay would probably be reason ably sm all. To make a rocket pay load, i will assum e its in a cylindrical tube. I would use
armstrongs mix to initiate AP or HMTD:
<pre>[pre]
||
||
|||| @=Arm strongs, ignite d by metal "firing pin" squishing it on
||@||@|| im pact. C ontained in plastic tube, when it explodes, it
||@||@|| detonates the *** AP, which in turn detonates the 888 HMTD.
||@@@@|| It could be done in a plastic or metal tube, and would have
| * * * * * * | e n o u g h p o w e r t o d e t o n a t e m ost cap-sensitive m i x e s .
|******|
|888888|
|888888|

This is a basic m o d e l a n d m any im provem ents could be m ade, im sure, but its ju st an idea.

You're going to kill yourself trying to m a k e s o m ething like this!!! Find a less hazardous way to get your thrills.
<sm all>[ July 18, 2002, 01:16 AM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : Z a m b o s a n ] < / s m all>

If I had the choice between AP and HMTD I'd always go for the latter. Much safer to handle and very reliable.
Arkangel May 16th, 2002, 06:17 PM

T h e P a l e s t i n i a n s d e v e l o p e d a " M i s s i l e " c a l l e d t h e Q a s s a m 2 r e c e n t l y . S i n c e t h e y h a v e t o i m provise m ost things, they appear to
h a v e u s e d P o t a s s i u m Nitrate/Sugar for propellant, then some kind of explosive warhead. In another thread som e o n e s a i d t h e y
use AP a lot, so m a y b e t h e y u s e d s o m ething like this as a detonator.
Flake2m May 17th, 2002, 12:39 PM

I would use HMTD or AP because it is easy to m a k e , t h o u g h a n a z i d e c o m p o u n d ( s o d i u m azide, lead azide etc) would probaly
work.
I originally though up of this idea because i want an easy to make, reliable and safer impact detonator than the ones currently
used.
I h a d a n i m provem ent to this idea: Te st tubes!

Put a small amount of plaster in the test tube and then let it dry. The ad d your AP/HMTD etc into it. Place the wooden dowel
i n s i d e t h e t e s t u b e a n d y o u h a ve your detonator.
If th is detonator was m ounted in an ANNM charge then it could b e quite effective if this was then used as warhead for a rocket
b o m b or a la n d m i n e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Making Pyrodex Useful As A Lift Charge
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View Full Version : Making Pyrodex Useful As A Lift Charge

I am in possession of 6lbs of Pyrodex. Its burn rate isn't high enough to be effective as a lift charge for fireballs, ect. I'm making BP, but it would be a waste of effort to make
high quality BP and then pour it in a tube for a simple fireball or mortar. My BP is going to pressed into end burning rockets.
So I'd like to know if anyone has increased the burn rate of Pyrodex to mimic the performance of BP. Someone mentioned the addition of magnesium but I don't have any nor
will I buy any because I'm short on cash after purchasing some supplies from firefox and other places.
I could ball mill it and perhaps I could add more oxidiser and a more reactive fuel. However I don't want to have to press it into a solid grain and break it up like in Dan
Williams' site.
If I succeed maybe this would be a cheaper, more readily available BP alternative.

What do u want it for? You might be better just buying BP, if you can puy pyrodex you could buy BP. Otherwise, maybe if you confine it enough in the bottom of the mortar it
will burn fast enough. Maybe even pack it tightly into a small ball, and have wires into it.

Well what grade of pyrodex do you have? Usually the canister that it comes in will have a label that shows what grade of BP that it would be equal to. I made some very nice
roman candles and stars from FFG grade pyrodex. (the stars were made by making a wet mix of pyrodex, rc, and C and then poured onto rice crispies cereal and allowed to
dry.. this was repeated again and again until they were were about 1.5" in diameter; then a final layer of pure C is on the outside). When the balls were about 15-25
(depending on how long it took to initiate the charge within the last layer of C) feet in the air, they exploded throwing off orange streams of sparks everywhere.

rc and C?

rc = rubber cement
C = carbon, charcoal

It's P, or the FFFg equivalent. I've thought of making small disk shaped cracker out of it to be usefull but it would nice to just pour it in.
DarkAngel May 17th, 2002, 06:11 AM

NoltaiR it could be handy if you first use the whole word and than the shortening in a post.
[ May 17, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: DarkAngel ]

Sorry guys for not specifying it first, but zambosan is correct.
(It is just that after a long day of work I tend to take short-cuts in just about everything I do).
CyclonitePyro June 20th, 2002, 04:49 PM

I just remembered this whole issue and I found that pyrodex is made of potassium nitrate, charcoal, sulfer, potassium perchlorate and graphite. It is basically black powder with
the other things, there is probably not much graphite. The msds won't give any percentages.
I ball milled some and it is just sitting there, I'm pondering on what to add to it, to see if I can get it to burn faster. The problem is that it better burn pretty fast because I'm
not going to press it, and break it up into granules.
inferno June 23rd, 2002, 02:50 AM

Ive never even seen pyrodex, let alone used it, but i think after ball milling it should be able to burn pretty fast. What about adding a small amount of real BP, say 20:80 Bp to
Pdex, maybe even less. I dont think adding more oxidiser will work, the balances should be done pretty well already, its probably just not as fine ingredients.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Anyone know..
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View Full Version : Anyone know..

W hats in sparklers? it burns hot but very slow, and is hard to light usually. Anyone know what it is? Im just curious about it.
Sorry for posting a new topic but i couldnt see anywhere else this fitted in.
CyclonitePyro May 19th, 2002, 02:19 AM

Sparklers can be m a d e o f a n u m ber of differen t oxidize rs and m etals.
Basically they are made of a metal, of different particle sizes m ixed with an oxidiser, and bound together with som ething,
dextrin, and different gum s.
Depending on what it is supposed to do and the company the components can vary.
<sm all>[ May 19, 2002, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: CyclonitePyro ]
xoo1246 May 19th, 2002, 05:36 AM

Not to com plain, but aren't there rules?
BrAiNFeVeR May 19th, 2002, 05:59 AM

I allways loved the saying "Ru l e s a r e m a d e t o b e b r o k e n " : - )
But then , I don't like the chaos that creates, so I don't break them.
W hat rule do you think is broken ?

T h e c o m p around the m etal wire is a p yrotechnic m ixture, and fits right in LE-section ...
krimmie May 19th, 2002, 08:22 AM

I found this site when I did a search for "sparklers".
Scroll to top of page for index.
<a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/compo DB.html#chapter1" target="_blank ">http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/

compoDB.html#chapter1</a>
<sm all>[ May 19, 2002, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: krim mie ]

brain, i think xoo meant rules for the companies to follow. like not being allowed to use chlorates, etc.
A_W May 19th, 2002, 11:17 AM

Sparklers are m a d e o f a m etal-stick dipped in a paste consisting of: Bariumnitrate, alum inum , s m a l l p i e c e s o f i r o n a n d a
bind er. W hen this m ixture is ignited, the oxider (BN) an d fuel (Al) burns in a strong, exothermic re action. T h e t e m p e r a t u r e s
created are high (approx. 150 0*C) and ignites the small pieces of iron. It is the burning iron that m a k e s t h e s p a r k s .
W hy the flam e is not bright green (because of the barium), is to m e a m ystery, but the in formation was taken from a reliable
source. I have used this m ixture as a therm ite substitute for a long time.

if the Fe was responsible for m aking the sparks then they would be orange not white. therefore Fe cannot be responsible for
the sparks. i thought it was larger pieces of Al which made the sparks...
a_bab May 19th, 2002, 05:51 PM

You are right, there a re some sparklers which will produce white sparks. These are silvery in color, and there are oth er types of
sparklers which produ ce yellow sparks, made with iron.

I wouldn't rule out titanium o r m a g n e s i u m / m a g n a l u m e ither.
SATA NIC May 19th, 2002, 10:31 PM

d o e s a n y o n e have so m e a c t u a l c o m p o sitions they have discovered from testing them s e l v e s ?
It's easy to find som e i n f o o n p o s s i b l e comps, and while that he lps to make your own, i would be m ore interested in what i
could extract from com mercially availiable sparklers. He re in australia they are fairly cheap, i've even trid using them as a lo w
explosive in paper casings. ( they didn't work, though the casings were crap and fell apart. )
I always thought it was a chlorate..... there were some posts to that effect a long while ago.

----I have used both of these with goo d results----
Sparkler #13
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 224.
Com ments:
Preparation: Mix the com position with a 10% dextrin solution in water, and dip iro n wire or wood in the moist compositon.
Adding 500 parts stro ntium nitrate will produce a red color, adding 60 parts barium nitrate will produce a green color.
Potassium chlorate................................300
Alum inum granules.................................60
Charcoal.......................................... 2
Sparkler #14
Source: rec.pyrotechn ics. Posted by Tom 137 <tom 137@aol.com . C o m p o s i t i o n f r o m Weingart[5], p. 190.
Com ments:
Preparation:
Potassium perchlorate.............................10
Alum inum, finely powdered.........................7
Dextrin........................................... 3
W ater............................................. 20

I m f r o m Aus too, and normal sparklers here burn kinda orange (just red-hot orange) and throw out white/yellow sparks.
Theyre cheap, and excellent for fuses. As for them not being flexible like Visco fuse or whatever, if you put a length of
m asking tape along their length, and wrap it around, they are flexible. Best to leave a sm all am ount of sparkler w/o tape so
you can light that, as the tape burns for a while before the sparkler lights if you light it with tape. It sends out two jets of flam e
which makes it look good too.
<pre>
||
|=====================|==----------

</pre>
Just wrap the tape around, you might wanna go over twice too, it sticks m uch better then.
Anyway thanks for the info, i had read they had coarse Al but that was it...and that site he lps with the com positions. I was also
wondering if it would be possible to cru sh the com position into powder an d put it in water to get the non-soluble material? Very
cheap source of Al/Mg/Ti metal powders. Sparklers in Aus are about US$0.45c for 16, or US$1 for 40 sm aller ones. I haven't
seen coloured sparklers here, only "Electric Spa rklers". And as they burn at about 1500C, they light almost anything , Mg
ribbon, therm ite...
And for really nice looking and very cheap fountains, ge t two coke bottle lids, put a hole big enoug h for a sparkler in one, ta p e
t h e h o l e o v e r o n t h e o u t s i d e , a n d b r e a k o f f s o m e sparkler stuff. Fill both the lids tight with it (press it in a bit with a ham mer or
dowel) and q uickly put them together and tape them. Take the tape off the hole and stick in a sparkler, about halfway. Ligh t
the sparkler and step back, depending on the size of the hole, it will shoot a shower of sparks 3 feet to 7 feet in the air, but
only for around 5 seconds. They look great though, and cost nothing, about 25 cents Am erican, as it uses about 8 sparklers.
For an even better effect, cut up some bits of Mg ribbon and mix them in the spa rklers, and it throws out bright blue sparks as
well as yellow. Looks great, and for the price, its great.
<pre>
||
|| <== Sparkler
___||___
|&&&||&&&| <== Bottle lids with && spa rkler material.
|&&&||&&&|
|&&&&&&&&|
|&&&&&&&&|

</pre>
Anyway ive typed too much already, see ya

The sparklers you can buy here all con tain barium nitrate. It still emits bright white light, because Al masks the color and BaO
which form s after the decom position of Ba(NO3)2, em its bright white light when heated. (this goes for all earthalkalimetals)
I wouldn't use water to dissolve sparklers, it won't hurt the Al, but the Mg will react, Fe and Ti will corrode.
xoo1246 May 20th, 2002, 01:19 PM

W ell, I thought that there were a rule at this forum about search ing the net/archives before asking s o m ething that can be
found within a few clicks.
But hey, I'm not both e r e d i f p e o p l e a s k t h i n g s .

sorry xoo,
i did n't realise a newbie posted this. also i don't think this has been discussed be fore, well atleast not for a long tim e.

This is a pic of com position # 14 from a b o v e .
You will have to copy and paste UR L.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com / g u n d a m / k r i m m i e / s p arkler.JP G" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.co m / g u n d a m /

krim mie/sparkler.JPG</a>
krimmie May 21st, 20 02, 10:5 9 PM

I didn't weigh the thing. I m ixed up a few ounces of the composition after I had seen this thread...I m a d e a d o z e n s p a r k l e r s
form ed the rest into a ball to be used a different way later. Sorry, no spe cifics!
inferno May 22nd, 2002, 04:24 AM

Krim mie, from the looks of that m ix it would make a nice star m ixed with som e m eal or BP, do a few tests if u have enough of
the stuff left over, looks prom ising.
Oh and satanic, the stuff doesn't burn fast enough for salutes, at least n ot the comm ercial kind.
<sm all>[ May 22, 2002, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]
inferno May 23rd, 2002, 08:05 AM

D o e s a n y o n e k n o w t h e difference between these H2O 2's? THeyre all around the same price, but i dont know what the 20v
m e a n s a n d s t u f f . . c a n s o m e o n e help?
Hydrogen Peroxide 10v 175ml Craig $3.95

Hydrogen Peroxide 20v 175ml Craig $3.62
Hydrogen Peroxide 1 0 v o l u m e 3% 100 Gilseal $2.26
Hydrogen Peroxide 2 0 v o l u m e 6% 100 Gilseal $2.26
Hydrogen Peroxide B p 1 0 V 1 0 0 m l Sigm a $ 2 . 4 3
Hydrogen Peroxide B P 2 0 V 1 0 0 m l Sigm a $ 2 . 4 3
Is 10v 3%, 2 0v 6%? This is fo r making AP. The prices a re from <a href="http://www.onlinepharmacy.com .au"
target="_blank">www.onlinepharm acy.com.au</a> , its a cookie based page so i cant give the exact link, but on the
h o m epage it has a "search" box, i just typed in hydrogen.
Thanks
(PS - is Alum powder powdered Al, or alum inium sulfate? I did a search but had n o conclusive answer, one source kind of said
its a lum inium sulfate but wasnt very conclusive, any answers would be helpful thanks)
S. Toppholzer May 23rd, 2002, 01:56 PM

krim m i e :
Awesom e pic - though I wouldn't dare hanging THIS on a christm as tree at hom e <im g bo rder="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" />

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Favourite fuse
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View Full Version : Favourite fuse
Rhadon January 4th, 2001, 03:52 PM

Favourite fuse
After the discussions regarding favourite flash powder and so on I thought it would be interesting to know how your favourite
fuse is made. This is from interest for me because I'm now making my own firecrackers since half a year, and it can be quite
frustrating when you risked making a really huge one from AP and it doesn't start just because the fuse doesn't reach your AP.
At the time I'm making my fuses just by rolling black powder into thin paper, but does anybody have a better method for
which no KClO3/KClO4 is necessary?
blackadder January 4th, 2001, 04:30 PM

I've heard of getting a jar full of BP, and putting 2-4 drops of water in it. Then you put the string in the BP until all of the water
is absorbed, and absorbs some of the BP inside the string as well.
J January 4th, 2001, 04:52 PM

The BP must be a thick slurry, and a few % Dextrin should be added if you don't want the fuse to crumble. Pull the string
through a hole in some card for an even coating.
The good thing about this method is that you don't need good BP. Green mix will work if the chemicals are finely ground.
SofaKing January 4th, 2001, 07:25 PM

THe BeAsT fUUz Is LIk dAT sTRinG An ThE Gas
Sorry I had to do it http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
NightStalker January 4th, 2001, 07:32 PM

look for my topic "perfect homemade fuse", some good ideas were discussed there...
------------------
mark January 4th, 2001, 07:49 PM

Whats green powder?
vehemt January 4th, 2001, 08:20 PM

Green meal is black powder before it has been pressed and corned. Its essentially kno3, sulfur and charcoal mechanically
mixed (ballmilled most of the time).
Actual blackpowder is green meal thats been pressed into cakes then broken up into granules.

"Green meal" is the compnents of BP roughly mixed together, after it's been ball-milled then it is "meal powder", press into
cakes and break break it up into grains and it has been "corned".
-CossaC- February 4th, 2001, 11:36 PM

I don't really see the point in making fuses, just stock up on sparklers on guy fawkes day(for the poms and the kiwis) and 4th
of july(for the Yanks)....no offence intended http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
Sparklers or almost impossible to put out, so they are very reliable, and can have a delay of 40secs...they are also cheap.
~oa~
CragHack February 5th, 2001, 12:15 AM

i am a big fan of the electrical igniton. very stable, very precise. a nicrome wire at the end of 20' of wire and a 6vold battery.
hook a toggle switch up and you are all set. it goes when you want it to. no sooner no later.
------------------
...
Agent Blak February 5th, 2001, 09:53 AM

Sparklers? you can put those out with a a bit of water(H2O) I have also found that they are hard to light(with a Dispoable) and
in the Winter they don't burn that well. They also draw a lot of attention.
------------------
--RATM

Not to mention the cost. Also, sparklers have a solid metal core, which is unacceptable in pyro. What if instead of bursting the
case, your salute spat the metal core out at high velocity? If you've used salutes before, you'll probably have noticed that the
fuse is often chucked far away from the cracker before it's even burnt out.
The sparkler composition could probably be removed, made into a slurry, and coated on a string. It would last longer this way
as well as being safer.
------------------

Sparklers aren't flexible so you've got a rigid stick making your cracker considerably longer. They may be alright for basic
fireworks but they are unsuitable for more advanced kinds of fireworks.
While I would gladly use electrical ignition/det for big/precision blasts, if you've got a load of salutes you want to light and
throw about a fuse is much simpler and faster.

I like the Straw method of NightStalker. Also There is a mthod for making a core-burning fuse with facial tissue. I have heard
of good results; Plus you can coat it with a Laquer to water proof it. I will give more details if you are interested.
The Website was something like "Dexter's Pyro Page," nice layout etc. There is also other useful info.
------------------
--RATM
Foodos February 6th, 2001, 12:54 AM

since this was formerly on green meal (rather then open a new topic)...
You can't use green meal alone as being 'black powder' because its not intimently mixed enough? is that why it needs to be
pressed, or ball milled, or even precipitated to become mixed enough for it to become the black powder?
Anthony February 6th, 2001, 09:22 AM

Yes, greenmeal is just the roughly mixed ingredients of BP it is used for some fountains and can be used for fuse due to it's
slow burn rate.
You ball mill it to mix it very intmately and increase the burn rate drastically, this is now meal powder.
Finally you press the meal powder into cakes and then break it up into grains, this further increases the burn rate and also
makes it much less messy.

I've been working on a fuse mix that uses smokeless powder as a binder;these two mixes work well:
1/2 teaspoon potassium nitrate
1/2 teaspoon confectioners sugar
3/8th. teaspoon smokeless
1/32nd. teaspoon aluminum powder (optional)
Add just enough acetone to melt the smokeless,mix thoroughly.Then roll into 1/8th. in. thick strips,dry on alum. foil.Burns
hotter with addition of alum.,but works equally well without it.Or:
1 teaspoon crushed,powdered match heads
1/2 teaspoon smokeless.
Mix same as above.
If the mix is thinned enough,you can pass it through a liquid med.'s syringe,making nice,even sections of fuse.
J February 7th, 2001, 06:50 AM

Sounds like a good idea :-) If you leave the fuse out of a container, does it get damp after a week or so? I only ask, because
it contains sugar.
Also, IIRC pressing the BP doesn't necesarily make it faster, just gives it a more uniform burn rate. I've seen tables of
different grades of BP, and meal powder is generally the fastest if made properly.
------------------

www.ctel.net/~dwilliams (http://www.ctel.net/~dwilliams) has a good method for making a sort of thermalite, and many other
useful things.
I either buy fuse from skylighter or make blackmatch using H3 or meal powder.
For the electrical ignitors: coat the nicrome in BP/Dextrin/water paste and let it dry. It's more reliable for setting off rockets
and other harder to light things.

I had read that when you dampen the meal powder, the KNO3 dissolves and then when pressed the water is squeezed out and
the KNO3 re-cyrstalises, except that because of the pressure being exerted on it, the only place it can crystalise is actually
insidet he pores of the charcoal, giving a very intimate mix.
MacCleod February 7th, 2001, 09:19 PM

I've kept a sample of each sitting on a paper plate for about three weeks now and they're still nice and dry.The plasticizers in
the SP seem to waterproofing the chemicals nicely.I had to tinker with the ratios awhile;too much smokeless and the fuse
won't stay lit.I'm working on a few other mixes,including some with KCl03,I'll post the results when I'm done.
Oh,I forgot to mention:I drilled 1/8th. inch holes in particle board to see if the fuses would burn through(without
extinguishing);both worked well.
[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited February 07, 2001).]
Agent Blak February 8th, 2001, 12:09 AM

That is a good test a better one is to see if it will still if it will burn through hot glue, or Wax.
------------------
--RATM

I've also heard this about BP, I think I'll do some more research on this. I know that for firearms it's important to have a
consistent burn rate in order to determine correct propellent weights. Also in firearms if the powder burns too fast this can
damage the gun, this is why I think even fine grades of pressed BP are generally slower than good meal.
An even better (or should I say tougher) test is to see if it will burn through dried fibreglass resin/epoxy. I've found that this
stuff will ruin the fuse where is comes into contact, with blackmatch and it's variants anyway. Visco is fine.
------------------

If you think you've got really good fuse, see if it'll burn through a very tight hole in some 0.5" Al sheet. This stuff should cool
it down, and put out fuses that aren't really strong. I've never tried it, but it might be interesting as a test.
As for the thing about pressing damp meal powder to crystalise the KNO3, I don't think it's true. You only add about 3-4ml of
water per 100g of meal powder, and that'd only be enough to dissolve a few milligrams of KNO3, which would make little
difference.
Anthony February 8th, 2001, 09:05 AM

Fair enough, it was only someones else's word I was going on, it must be for the reasons J mentioned.
MacCleod February 8th, 2001, 08:22 PM

I tried KCl03/sugar/smokeless today (1/2-1/2-1/4);burned way hotter,but with a large flame-it shot off the workbench!.I'll give
the successful batches the 'epoxy' test tonight.
frostfire February 8th, 2001, 11:35 PM
just read Stalker's straw fuse....
Beware!, I made that kind of exact fuse 5 months ago, I test the fuse alone (with many variations between KNO3, sugar, S,
KCLO3 etc)
and it went really really well, even when the straw is wet
Well, guess what, put it on an AP putty, lit and BOOM in femtoseconds, almost lose my right hand......man, a straw MELTS!
again it melts...so if you'd have to make it make sure to plug it from underneath or paralel with your explosive
CragHack February 8th, 2001, 11:45 PM

i would suggest, unless you have alot of experiance making fuses with consistant burn rates, that before you strap a homeade
fuse to an actual explosive you buy them. use ones with proven burn rates. 10 dollars plus a few for shipping and handling is
a very small price to pay for the use of your right hand. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smile.gif
if you insist on using homeade fuse get a method down first. try and try and try again to get the same burn rates on all of
your fuses. if you are to impatient to do this, buy it. don't just make a fuse cause someone else told you how to make it.
even though they say it has a good burn rate, you might have fucked up the process somewhere. and this oculd result in
losing something that you shouldn't have.
if all else fails use electronics to detonate your explosisives. this is the safest way in my opinion.
------------------
...

I have to agree with CragHack;in fact I was kinda negligent for not mentioning it in my posts.I wouldn't want anyone trying
something I posted,and then getting hurt!.I only tinkered with these to come up with a cheap fuse to test pyro comp.'s with
(flash powders,smokes,etc.),so I could save my visco for more important things.That's not to say reliable home-brewed fuses
are impossible(I've tested the 1st.two mixes several times with consistent results),I just wouldn't stake my life on them.That
being said,I'm off to do some burn-thru tests (epoxy,wax).

Yes, it's very important to thoroughly test fuses, especially improvised ones. If you can, stick to blackmatch, as it's been well
used and I haven't heard of many faults. I have the method on my site.
One word of warning about Visco though. I've had the NC layer on the outside of the fuse light instead of the BP inside and
flash down. While this didn't make the salute explode, a loose pile of composition would certainly have ignited.
------------------

Burn-thru tests were successful with the 3 mixes posted above.Each easily passed through 1/8th.inch layer of epoxy,3/16th.
inch layer of wax (I put the fuse segments through 1/8th. cardboard, put 1/4 in. sections of spiral craft tubing around each
one,then poured epoxy/wax in around the fuse).So as not to confuse,I did do two seperate boards for wax,epoxy;didnt make
that very clear above!
firebreether February 13th, 2001, 04:16 PM

I prefer electric ignition for a couple reasons
1 You can set it off exactly, no worrying about lighting the fuse and having someone walk by on the path where I do my shit
and having a bomb or something ignite by them. I wouldn't want that.
2 You can seal the salute or whatever with epoxy where the wires go in so that it is airtight, so you don't have confinement
probs
The way I do it is with a steel wool wire linked to a long wire and stuck in. Either several AA batteries to light it or a flash
generator from a camera (higher Voltage discharge = more intense flash from steel wool.) http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/
biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by firebreether (edited February 13, 2001).]

The problems with electrical ignition are: It's inconvenient, wiring up a new ignitor every time you want to use a salute is
tedious! Then there's the trailing wire. Also, there's the possibility of an accident if you forget to switch off your PSU before
wiring up the next ignitor, or if the circuit malfunctions (broken/dirty switch, loose connection).
Confinement shouldn't be a problem if you make the salute correctly.
I'm not against it, but I'm just giving the disadvantages. In some applications it is certainly better than fuse.
------------------
blackadder February 14th, 2001, 02:56 PM

I am a fan of electrical ingition, but I am sure you will agree, that for small explosive devices such as M80's it is easier to light
the fuse and chuck it somewhere, instead of hooking up wires and shit.
I only use electrical ignition for big devices, like big pipebombs, etc.

Yeah, this is true, but for those biggies its basically a must, since you would need a big ass fuse anyway, why not just hook up
a long wire?
PYRO500 February 14th, 2001, 04:42 PM

yeah plus wire is usualy cheaper and may be reused if it is heavy enough

Another thing about electrical detonation, is that if you are hiding in the bush about to blow up the bomb and a pig just
decides to walk past, then you simply don't press the detonator, but if you had a fuse then you wouldn't have enough time to
put out the fuse.
Another thing about this, is that you can only run so far, but with electrical detonation, you can be miles away from the bomb.
Also, you can blow the bomb up without being noticed. If someone sees you pressing a little button they will be less suspicious
than they would if they saw you lighting a fuse and running away...

But a mile long wire is impractical, then you would mabe use a remote controller to set it off instead of rigging up wire. That
could work right??
[This message has been edited by firebreether (edited February 14, 2001).]
Cricket February 14th, 2001, 09:57 PM

If I understand you correctly, yes they have remote detonators. Just as they have remote controls for the TV (fuck I dont even
have one of them and I have 2 TVs). Shit, everything is remote now a days. I like it. The way they are improvised (the
quickest way) usually it to take a car, or other remote controlled toy, and hook the wires to the motor up to an electrical
detonator. Sounds easy, but with my expirence, I would rather use a fuse (unless I plan to blow the holy fuck out of an
abandoned building with a half a 55gallon drum of ANFO) on most things.
vehemt February 14th, 2001, 10:06 PM

Beware of stray rf interference. Dont want anything blowing too soon.
Cricket February 14th, 2001, 10:35 PM

Yea! In the Army and commercially when they do that, they are supposed to wrap the wires arround eachother to fix that
problem. When I was coming home from scantions Sunday, the guy driving me was in Nam. He said when a new guy was
learning how to set up claymores, they were always tought to keep the switch completely unhooked from the claymore until
you are done. They would do it wright when people were watching. But sometimes someone didnt care and would hook
everything together while fucking with it. The guys would have the switch right under their ass while squatting down. The
detonator would be on the ground next to them. So he would walk up behind him and step in the switch and it apperently
"...splattered their ass with that metal. Ya know that stings." That sounds like a lesson to be learned pretty quick.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited February 14, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone February 15th, 2001, 11:42 AM

I do fuses with:
-those thin plastic pipes used for drinks; I put some kind of BP in it.(or detonating substances for a detonator
Diameters are like 2mm for 30cm long or 5mm for 15cm, 30cm and 50cm.
-those Cristal pipe made of flexible PVC; diameter is 5mm for all lenghts.....with BP also
-incense is good too
-cigarettes also!.
------------------
Mick February 15th, 2001, 02:11 PM

i used a cigarette for a fuse once...such a waste..got all the way down to the filter(which i had removed, and filled the space
with AP) and then went out...
and well..cigarettes just ain't cheap in OZ..so i was rather pissed..
i've never used insence before..i might give a go tomorrow acctually...
PYRO500 February 15th, 2001, 04:11 PM

alot of fireworks stores carry what they call punk sticks basicly all they are is sawdus incence and they often give them away
they are for lighting fuses without burning your fingers, you light one blow it out and they burn for a while, sometimes if they
are old they go out early (probably from the humidity around here) but you could remedy that by drying them on al foil in the
oven
BoB- February 15th, 2001, 11:58 PM

I used to steal my moms cigarettes for mischeif, I would tape a firecracker to the filter and secure the fuse to the ciggarete
with some thread, then we would light the ciggarette and toss um in peoples backyards and other fun places.
The ashes that fall off incense are really hot.

I love incence, I burn tons of the stuff.
For a ciggy fuse, one would remove the filter, so you have a long white thing. Then at one end of the white thing, put some BP
on it. You should test a couple out before you use them for your actual devices.

Does anyone use a chlorate/ perchlorate for fuse or would it burn too quickly? I was thinking - dissolving NaClO3 and sugar in
water and dipping shoelaces or something absorbent in it. When it dries the chlorate and sugar would be deposited in the
shoelace for the fuse.

I have started to use Chlorate fuse, I've been testing some things, and I wouldn't use NaClO3 and sugar, as they are both
very hydroscopic. I tried to soak a piece of relatively thick cotton string in a saturated solution of NaClO3, but when it burned,
it formed big lumps of NaCl and the fuse didn't burn very well.
However, i guess you are getting the NaClO3 from weedkiller right? Well, i tried a method described on J's page (
www.connect.to/juice (http://www.connect.to/juice) ) and look at the TP rocket bit. All I have done is make a saturated solution
of NaClO3/NaCl weedkiller, and then pour this over sheets of kitchen roll. I take a 4cm wide strip, and then just roll it up tight.
I've found that it burns reliably at a rate of 1.5cm/s, and leaves little residue, only ash.
So I usually do 12cmx4cm strips, and these have a burn rate of 8 seconds. I find it is best to give a long time on homemade
fuses. I like these fuses, it is so damn cheap to make them!! It uses very little weedkiller, and you could make so many! The
reason I suggest kitchen roll is that it is stronger than toilet paper.
Although if you are going to do anything seriously big, never use homemade fuse, and I personally would say never use fuse.
I would go for electrical ignition.
Oh, and another reason I don't like using sugar is because its sticky when wet.
------------------
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)
JB March 18th, 2001, 09:10 AM

I've been making large amounts of fast burning hemp rope fuse by mixing it with sodium chlorate and methylated spirits or
isopropanol alcohol . This is only a substitute until I get hold of the Firefox safety fuse.
The procedures I take for this is to pour 150ml of methylated spirits or anti-freeze into a glass jar, then add 2 or 3 desert
spoon fulls of sodium chlorate. Give it a quick stir. Then add 20"-30" of hemp rope, giving this a stir round. Cap the jar and
give it a shake for a couple of minuites then leave on a shelf for an hour. Take the hemp rope out of the jar and place on a
piece of cardboard or wood, then leave under a radiator (or drape it over the radiator) over night. It will have a stiff feel to the
rope and usually a good constant burn rate. Now I strap a match to the end of the fuse with thread to that the match just
needs to be stiked and the fuse is instantly lit, rather than fumbling about with a lighter.
I have not tried using KN03 yet because it costs me 11.25 a 500g tub http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif so
I tend to spare it. It may be advisable to keep these in air tight containers because mine go damp after a few weeks of open
exposure. The reason I use this method is because have so much hemp rope and chlorate to use. Though I do agree with
Firebreather that electric ignition is prefered.

good ideas. thanks. I will try what it says on Js site - 50 % NaClO3, 45 % charcoal, 5 % dextrin. I will also try just NaClO3 in
water hten poured on TP like he says for rockets. I will make rockets and also fuse with this and see what is best. Also some
H3 or flash or KClO3/sugar mix to make med. sized firecrackers. very soon.......very soon......
[This message has been edited by firebreether (edited March 18, 2001).]
firebreether March 21st, 2001, 05:26 PM

Crap!! I stopped in at my neighborhood garden store - Metzler's, and looked around. Only to find that they didn't have any
chlorate weedkiller. At least I don't think so. I saw only one bag of weedkiller and it was labelled something like 4 % d4 or 4d
idont remember which. And 96 % inert ingredients. I thought chlorate was the active ingredient so i assume that this doesn't
have any in it. Also, since i couldn't get any weedkiller SC, I looked for some AN. And guess what, they didn't have any. All the
fertilizers there were derived from urea, and not even pure. Most had ammonium phosphate mixed in. So that was a total
waste. Maybe I'll try Home Depot or something. Any ideas if the SC was listed as an inert ingredient?
Anthony March 21st, 2001, 06:32 PM
Sorry to tell you this, but you can't get sodium chlorate in the US, it's as common as muck here in the UK though...
firebreether March 21st, 2001, 10:34 PM

Yeah, too bad for me. Maybe I will make a chlorate cell (maybe) and then I'll have next to free chlorate. maybe. hopefully.
Someday.
J March 22nd, 2001, 08:59 AM

Firebreether, I did not say NaClO3/C/Dextrin, I said KClO3/C/Dextrin! You will have a hard time drying it if you use NaClO3 as
a substitute, and the end result will be hygroscopic. It is very easy to convert NaClO3 to KClO3, that info's also on my site.
Isn't NaClO3 meant to be available from welding stores in the US? Maybe it's just a crapbook legend.
------------------

Yeah, there are times when living in England has it's good points. Cheap, common NaClO3, KNO3, NH4NO3 and hexamine,
and you can get into pubs & clubs when you're 15, as long as you're tall and don't look like a teenager.
Donutty March 22nd, 2001, 06:49 PM

Aint it crazy!!
In the US you get all the guns, fuse etc etc, whereas in the UK this is a 'no-no'
But we have NaClO3... yet you can't get the stuff. What a wierd world we live in

Russia - too cold, crap cars, generally piss poor.
Middle East - yeah right, I'm going to live in a country that chops your penis off for stealing a loaf of bread.
Agent Blak March 26th, 2001, 06:10 PM

Russian climate is quite similiar to that of Canada abd probabley scandinavia(SP?). Also if you are willing to pay the money
and not fuck around you can get anything you want through the Russian Mob...ANYTHING!!!
Plus i would rather live qwhere it is cold than where it is hot and humid; just can't stand having my nut stuck to my leg for 2
weeks like when I went to ontario on summer. The cold really is not that bad and, it is not like is cold all year round. what are
the restriction on things in The Soviet Union(USSR)?
------------------
Teck March 27th, 2001, 01:05 AM

I lived in Russia and to get the chemicals you needed all you had to do was go down to the local pharmacy and order anything
you wanted. Me and my friends always bought Potassium Permanganate at the pharmacy and when a kid comes up to them
and asks for that stuff they already know what your up to, they tell you to be carful you pay them and leave. Then we would go
to the scrap yard get some aluminum scrap, and file it down to some coarse flakes, mix it with Potassium Permanganate then
put it all in a metal can. Wrap it with so much newspapers and tape that it looks like a basket ball with a match head fuse
sticking out then go to a field and blow it up. We never even though that mixing Potassium Permanganate with aluminum as
being dangerous and unstable like everyone dramatizes it on this forum and in literature. This is the most common explosive
anyone makes in Russia.
The only thing they use for fertilizing is Ammonium Nitrate not some crap they sell at Home Depot in bags that have like only
40% of AN. To get Potassium Nitrate all you had to do is go down to the local butcher (its used for treating meat) and get it.
I remember my dad blowing up stumps on our villa in Russia near Caspian Sea for our second house. He went down to the the
local quarry and bought some stick powder or dynamite (I remember it was a box with brown wrapped sticks of something with
fuse) I dont know what they used in the sticks. Back then there wasnt as much laws on explosives as probably now. That was
around 1985.
Here in Alaska you can buy binary explosives to clear your land of stumps and all you have to do is fill out some papers and
they sell it to you with out any hassle, my neighbor was clearing a small airfield with that stuff last summer.
---------------------------------------------
"When I think of all the victims killed during nitroglycerine explosions, and the terrible havoc that has been wreaked, which in
all probability will continue to occur in the future, I am almost ashamed to admit to be its discoverer." Ascanio Sobrero mid
1800s
[This message has been edited by Teck (edited March 27, 2001).]
ddog August 12th, 2001, 03:27 PM
Since this used to be on black powder and green powder, lemme ask this. How efficiently is the burn rate affected when you
press the powder int cakes and crumble it again,. How much pounds is used for this?

Would it be possible to make either fuse or wic from stronium nitrate roadflare comp? The stuff burns nice and slow, and is
quite spectacular. Could blackmatch type fuse be made with this stuff? How bout that straw fuse?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > My Sp!
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View Full Version : My Sp!
Monkeyman666 S e p t e m b e r 1 st, 2001, 11:49 PM

I figured that I would post my experience with detonating sp here, since ANTHONY didn't really salivate over the last post. W ell
I cut the top off of a Co2 cartdridge filled it to the top with dbsp, So a blasting cap made out of an em pty .22 magn u m
cartridge packed w/ Ap, would fit in it. I sealed it in with 3,500 psi epoxy. The only thing it did was m assivly rip open the side of
the cylinder. I was pissed at first, then was kind of surprised when I seen the sp packed in the bottom of the cylinder very
tightly, so tighly I could only break it loose with m y knife. I will succeed with m ore effort in the futu re. READ THIS IF WANTED:
before Antho ny closes/deletes it!!
------------------
Monkeym an
Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 2 nd, 2001, 10:05 AM

So you're saying that you didn't m anage to detonate SP, even though it was DB - W ITH NG?! In a steel con tainer (lots of
confinemtent), with a .22 m agnum case PACKED with AP?
I'm surprised!
Kdogg September 2 nd, 2001, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Mr Cool:
So you're saying that you didn't m anage to detonate SP, even though it was DB - W ITH NG?! In a steel con tainer (lots of
confinemtent), with a .22 m agnum case PACKED with AP?
I'm surprised!
Exactly what IM saying, I was surpprised m yself!
------------------
Kdogg
Anthony September 2 nd, 2001, 09:03 PM

C a l m d o w n , t h i s o n e s t a y s o p e n b e c a u se it hasn't turned into a flam e wa r and it also contains new inform ation, in that you've
tried it.
How much NG did the SP contain?
Kdogg September 2 nd, 2001, 10:12 PM

I m n o t s u r e o n t h e a m ount of nitro in it. All I know is th a t i t i s d o u b l e b a s e s m o k e l e s s s h o t g u n p o w e r . I h a ve it for reloading
shells. My .22 shell was filled almost to the top with acetone peroxide, th en packed down with a do wel rod. I did this till is was
full with pack ed ap, but leaving a sm all space for the crimp.
------------------
Monkeym an
[This message has been edited by Kdogg (edited September 02, 2001).]
Mr Cool S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 07:26 AM

Did any of it detonate?
Perhaps it just has a very low NG conte nt. I think the DBSP for m agnum pistol rou nds is m e a n t t o b e t h e b e s t ( h i g h e s t % o f
NG), there was a thread discussing it som ewhere...
Kdogg S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 11:37 AM

Im pretty sure none of it detonated. All I heard was a sm all cap gun like pop from the bla sting cap.
------------------
Monkeym an
krimmie S e p t e m b e r 3 rd, 2001, 10:22 PM

Top 5 fastest burning powders:
1). Norma R-1
2). VihtaVuori N310
3). Alliant Bu llseye
4). Accurate N100
5). Accurate No. 2
Microtek S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 04:52 AM

If th e grains were large, then there m a y h a v e b e e n e n o u g h e x t r a s p a c e t o n e g a t e t h e c o n t a i n m e n t .
W as it an ordinary .22 case about 2 cm l o n g ?
If th is was th e c a s e , I d o u b t i t w o u l d b e e n o u g h A P t o d e t o n a t e s m okeless, especially if the AP was not pressed to a high
density.
Sm o k e l e s s i s n o t n e a r l y a s s e nsitive as you'd think for som ething that contains NG.
Fingerless S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 06:07 PM
H e s a i d a . 2 2 m a g n u m case up at the top, which is a little longer than a standard . 2 2 L R a n d h e a l s o s a i d i t w a s p a c k e d .
I would think it should have went off.
A r e a l l s m o k e l e s s p o w d e r s u s e d f o r r e l o a d i n g s h o t s h e l l s d o u b l e b a s e d - c o n t a i n i n g NG?
BoB- S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 08:05 PM

Exactly what I was thinking Microtek, m aybe you would have had better success if the Sm o k e l e s s P owder was dissolved in
Acetone, then poured into the casing with a peice of dowel in the center to form a channel for the detonator.

Are these the powders with the highest NG content, or just fastest burning?
Originally posted by krimm ie:

Top 5 fastest burning powders:
1). Norma R-1
2). VihtaVuori N310
3). Alliant Bu llseye
4). Accurate N100
5). Accurate No. 2

W hat about m ixing it with som e fine al or m g powder and som e petroleum jelly or acetone?
Tony Montana S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Kdogg:
All I know is that it is double base sm okeless shotgun power. I have it for reloading shells.
</fo nt>
Shotgun propellant is straight NC, as Mr.Cool stated double base powder is used only in large calib r e h a n d g u n s . Y o u r s h o t g u n
powder contains no nitroglycerin!!!
krimmie S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 11:47 PM

These stats were for the fastest burnin g Rifle powders.
Anthony S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 11:48 PM

That would explain ithttp://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif
IIR C the higher the NG content, the faster burn ing the powder is.
Straight NC should be detonatable, I d on't know how sensitive it is though.
krimmie S e p t e m b e r 4 th, 2001, 11:50 PM

It's funny though, where I get m y hunting and reloading supplies, the only thing kept "behind the counter" is BP! All other
powders, being for rifle or han dgun, are out in the open !
Tony Montana S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2001, 05:05 AM

After serching the internet I found that 12ga target shooters sometim e s u s e d o u b l e b a s e p o w d e r s , f o r o p t i m al results and
speeds. This is using an extremely light shot, and is pretty much handgun propellant. Single based propellants are used in
shotguns 95% of the time. I believe BP was behind the counter because it is classed as an explosive, the others be ing
propellants. BTW : W h a t s I I R C ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Victim S e p t e m b e r 5 th, 2001, 03:15 PM

IIR C m e a n s " I f I R e m e m ber Correctly"
EventHorizon S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2001, 04:56 PM

.410 bores typically use 296, which is a m a g n u m pistol powder. Its a dou b l e b a s e ball powder and I think its also got a high NG
content.
CyclonitePyro S e p t e m b e r 6 th, 2001, 11:26 PM

After reading the first post on this topic I walked to m y b a s e m ent, filled a film canister with bullseye powder, put a bcap in
m ade of AP putty (m a d e u s i n g t h e b u l l s e y e p o w d e r a n d acetone m ethod) the bcap was just an em pty pen case the size of the
heig ht of the film can , The fuse ran through the lid.
These suckers blow nice size chunks of earth out, m uddy sandy wet soil that is.
Very powerfull, I've m ade a couple of these things since, great fun.
------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
krimmie S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2001, 12:34 AM

I have reloaded everything from .38 special to .458 winchester magnun, and by far, the fasting burning powder is BP(FFFg). I
guess I'm missing the point though, you people want to extract the NG o ut of the cartridges! But, BP(com m ercial) burns faster
than the rest(including double base powders), sorry if I missed the point. Bp would destroy a cartridge designed for smokeless!
Try igniting any rifle(shotgaun ) powder...you will see it burns slower(than BP), this is because; velo city(of a bullet) d o e s n o t
necessarily g o up with m ore volumn of the propellant.
Tony Montana S e p t e m b e r 8 th, 2001, 01:27 AM

If you load d ouble base powder into a pipe bomb and put a fuse in it and light th e fuse, the pipe will explo de into fragm ents
travelling around 600 feet per second. However if you put a detonator in the pipe, and detonate it, the resulting pipe
fragm ents will travel at a velocity in excess of 20,000 fe et per second. It detonates(explodes) because of the nitroglycerin
content of the powder, rather than deflagerate(burn quickly) as BP and lighting it does.
cutefix S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 02:16 AM

Krim m i e , b u r n i n g a n d d e t o n a t i o n a r e n o t t h e s a m e , m a n y H i g h E x p l o s i v e s w h e n e x p o s e d t o f l a m e burn slowly,but if you
placed a blasting cap on two containers;one containing an HE an d the other a black powder.The BP will just be thrown out by
the bcap but the other HE will give an im pressive explosion.Therefore you must learn to discrim inate the behavior between a
low explosive(black powder) and a high explosive(sm o k e l e s s p o wder-especially double ba s e ) . B u t t h e r e a r e s m o k e l e s s p o w d e r
t h a t a r e e a s i e r t o ign ite also
SATA NIC S e p t e m b e r 1 0th, 2001, 02:27 AM

The very first explosive devices i m a d e w e r e p i p e b o m b s u s i n g D B S P , a n d i ' m s u r e t h e y c o u l d d e t o nate, as Ntroglycerin can
detinate from h e a t , s p a r k , a n d s h o c k , a n d t h e r e i s a l o t o f h e a t a n d f l a m e in burning sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r !

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > how dangerous is flash
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View Full Version : how dangerous is flash
Sektorf5 September 3rd, 2001, 02:29 AM

how dangerous is flash powder to handle and use in a firecraker. the flash i migh make would be of 400 mesh aluminum
powder and potasium perclorate. Also ive heard that clorate is more friction and shock sensitive, is that true. Thanks for your
help.
SafetyLast September 3rd, 2001, 02:48 AM

It is not too dangerous if you are careful with it and respect it.
You shouldn't use more than 10 grams of it since you are starting out. It is both friction and shock sensitive, but not as
sensitive as a lot of other substances
(ie: KMnO4+Al).
You are definitely right about the chlorate flash powder being more sensitive than the perchlorate flash.
The KClO4+Al is a good flash to use, as it is less sensitive than KClO3+Al.
You know how to safely mix them I assume (diaper method)
[This message has been edited by SafetyLast (edited September 03, 2001).]
Mr Cool September 3rd, 2001, 07:22 AM

You shouldn't have many safety problems with 400 mesh Al and KClO4, just don't be stupid with it but you don't sound like
you would. Like SafetyLast said, just treat it with respect and you should be fine.
I assume you'll be getting the stuff from a pyro supplier, and from the sound of you post you haven't ordered it yet. Well
when you do, buy FLAKE Al, it makes the flash a lot better.

hey I think it is time to discuss how unstable KMnO4 flashpowders really are. I don't have any real proof, but I don't think it is
so damn unstable as many claims. It is true that it very unstable and tends to spontanous ignite when mixed with ORGANIC
material such as glyserine etc. KMnO4 flash consists of ofcause KMnO4, -Sulfur and Aluminium. As far as I know all of these
materials are INORGANIC!. I have tried to store (at a safe place) KMnO4 flash up to many weeks without any sign of
decomposition!
I remember another forum member(?) who stored this type of flash a year....!?
Ofcause it is still sensitive and dangerous as all other flashpowders to friction, shock, sparks etc. but I think KClO3
flashpowders are much more sensitive!!
The good thing about KMnO4 is that it can be made from easely avaible chemicals, it dosen't have to be mixed extremely
well, and it is quite powerfull (as powerfull as KClO4 flashpowers!?)
Does anyone have some other proofs?
or other info?
the freshmaker September 4th, 2001, 12:26 PM

If anyone is interested you can find a good description of KMnO4 flash for salutes - therein called "flash no.9" http://
edetonator.hyperlink.cz/Delobuchy0.htm
Mr Cool September 4th, 2001, 01:29 PM

I wouldn't use KMnO4/Al/S, there's no need for the sulphur it just makes it dangerous. Without the S it should be fine,
certainly for several weeks. It's slightly harder to ignite, but you should manage easily.
Even without the S you should handle it carefully, but I seriously doubt that it'll ever spontaneously ignite.
krimmie September 5th, 2001, 09:34 PM

I have not had any problem with the stability of Al flash(so far). Although my Al could be finer. I will be receiving some 400
mesh soon...HOPE my opinion doesn't change!!!

Oops, I'm using 3 parts KMNO4, 2parts Al and 1 part S(by weight of course). That's the percentages that I got from here...if
anyone has a better formula, please let me know!
Teck September 6th, 2001, 03:28 AM

Ive never had problems with KMnO4. I buy the stuff at Sears, they sell it in plastic cans in water purifing section of the store.
Its expansive 7.00 for 100g i think, but hey I get a Five Finger Discount.
================================================== ===================
You need to get rid of the animated "hand grabbing bouncing thing" from your signature.
Please notice how neither the admin, nor any of the moderators or anyone else for that matter uses one.
Think there's a reason?
Hint: HED
Take care of it.
NBK2000
PS: I tried to e-mail this to you but the e-mail address you listed doesn't exist. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
mad.gif
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited October 23, 2001).]
Demolition September 10th, 2001, 08:40 AM

KMnO4 flash is good.Very powerful.My friend tried using (in volume) 12 parts KMnO4 to 3 parts Al powder and 2 parts
Sulfer.When confined in a paper tube it made a large crack (similar to AP) where as when the 3:2:1 ration is used it produces
a large deep BOOM.
Differences in the amount of gas being released I'm guessing.
Which would be the more powerful if you could call it that?
------------------
http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/
Demolition
Sektorf5 October 23rd, 2001, 04:53 PM

Thanks for all the info.
------------------
*HF*
BrAiNFeVeR October 28th, 2001, 07:02 AM

Well i recently made som KMnO4 Flash powder using the 3:2:1 formula and it works perfectly (next ime i might try some less
S though)
Demolition, I think, with your formula, you actually won't get that much of a flash, since u use (in my opinion) way too much
KMnO4and S / amount of Al-powder, Don't you find residu's of KMnO4 after an explosion (a purple spot on the pavement or
something like that)???
------------------
Demolition October 28th, 2001, 07:21 AM

Yes,sometimes I find a small purple patch on the concrete underneath where the cracker was.After every blast http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif I always find the concrete slightly blackened from the heat given out from the
explosion,very nice http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif.
------------------
Demolition
BrAiNFeVeR October 30th, 2001, 06:46 AM

Yes, I have also amazed myself about the amount of heat the flash makes!
If you light a small batch (1 gr or so) on a toilet paper, the paper actually bursts into flames all at once with the flash, even if
it is flat on concrete !
When i first tried to light some of it with a lighter, the heat was so intense the front part of my finger(thumb)nail was scorched
brown and curled a bit up !! and the plastic of the lighter was a bit molten too !!
All the plastic that comes from under the metal cap kinda looked sad http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
EventHorizon October 30th, 2001, 11:08 AM

Yet again, another 'friend' made a 2" galvanized mortor for firing, well, anything that would fit in the barrel. http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif using 1g 70/30 Al/KClO4 crackers. After 3 firings the "chamber" would be very
hot to the touch. It would launch 6" sections of wooden dowel over 150 yds. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/
biggrin.gif http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif Someone stuffed a lacrosse ball down the barrel once too,
never did see where or how far that went.
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
krimmie November 3rd, 2001, 07:57 AM

I dreamt that this was a 3:2:1 ratio of KMNO4,Al,S. www.angelfire.com/gundam/krimmie/Mvc_017s.jpg (http://
www.angelfire.com/gundam/krimmie/Mvc_017s.jpg)
OOps, that was 28 grams in a Dixie cup.

[This message has been edited by krimmie (edited November 03, 2001).]
-Colza- November 6th, 2001, 03:39 AM

Be very wary of dextrin coming into contact with KMnO4 mixtures!
I had a nasty experience with a rocket with dextrin as a binder and a KMnO4 flash charge at the top. If the dextrin gets sightly
damp (in this case dew on the grass) it ignites the KMnO4 flash!
It didn't do any damage but holy FUCK it gave us all a fright!
DarkAngel November 6th, 2001, 04:27 AM

How do you know the dextrine ignited the flash and not some other ingredient?
And discripe where both mixtures where made of.
------------------
arkAngel

CodeMason November 6th, 2001, 05:04 AM

Knowing what KMnO4 does in contact with glycerine, why is it suprising that it ignites in contact with dextrin,
another energetic sugar?
------------------
Visit my website (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net
VX November 21st, 2001, 02:10 AM

The following is a description of my fist encounter with flash powder.
I have always been fascinated by explosives and more broardly pyrotechnics in general. and 5 years ago i was a LOT more
ignorant than i am now.My friends dad (yes he is a real friend) works at the theater and was in charge of all of the
pyrotechnics used their, which he kept in his garage. We found a tub of flash powder. Not knowing that flash powder and gun
powder were different things we proceded to make a short trail of the powder that ended with a fairly large mound of flash. i lit
it with a match (not a very bright thing to do, i know now), expecting it to slowly burn allong the powder trail before flaring up
when it reached the mound. (i think i had seen this done on a film a few days before). This is possibly the most stupid thing i
have ever done.
I do not know what the flash consisted of because we did not make it, infact it was not even home made, it had been bought
(at great cost from a proper pyrotechnic, theatrical supplier)
As you already know flash does not burn slowley, and their is nothing slow about it, it flared up instantly (their was not enough
to cause detonation, and it was not at all confined, except by itself in the mound.) However the intence heat resulted in a burn
that left the bone on one of my fingers clearly visable, and very little skin on the rest of my hand. I had to visit the specialist
burns unit every other day for FIVE weeks, to have bandages replaced and so forth.
5 years later i have found megalomania, (the best site i have ever come across) and havent been carless since.
I learnt the hard way,
my point,
Flash poweder is in my opinion not safe at all if you do not know exactly what you are doing. Even then it will still be only to
happy to kill/maim you and others if you are even slightly carless with it.
------------------
Their is no spoon!!
[This message has been edited by VX (edited 11-22-2001).]
mrloud November 21st, 2001, 07:35 AM

I have a nice cup full of proper theatrical flash powder that I bought a year or so ago. I don't know exactly what is in it but it
looks like it is mostly aluminium with some magnesium. It is not shock sensitive or friction sensitive and it does not react with
glycerine. It actually takes a naked flame to set it off. A cigarette won't do it.
In other words, there is no formula to "This Is How Dangerous Flash Powder Is". It depends on what it is made from.

So what actually is theatrical flash? I've seen the stuff before, and it goes "POOF", with a bright flash, mushroom cloud of
white smoke, and then there's this Fairy Godmother standing there.(or not, whichever way round they do it)
Is it the same as boomer flash, but uncontained, or is it something less explosive, maybe with a nitrate instead of chlorate? If
so, can it be modified to make a boom? Also, where does the Fairy Godmother come from? :confused:
[ May 28, 2002, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
Chris Shiherlis May 28th, 2002, 10:43 AM
I think you should be very careful with flashpowder. It's very sensitive to friction, heat and sparks. I'd rather deal with a large
badge of AP than flashpowder.
[ May 28, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]

Er, yes, that's lovely Chris, thanks for the tip. I think everyone here is agreed on that aren't we chaps? Splendid.
However, I resurected this topic because I want to know about the composition of, and potential ways to sensitize theatrical
flash.
Given that we've now got the hazards of flash firmly in the open, does anyone actually have anything other than that to
contribute? :rolleyes:
(and by the way, I think that hijacking my question is a damn sneaky way to try and get the whole pathetic detonation/
deflagration argument going again after NBK closed that topic. I hope nobody humours you by doing so - mods please note)
[ May 28, 2002, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]

(Flame)
I normally try not to double post, but under the circumstances I've decided to do so, to draw attention to the prick that is Chris
Shiherlis. (as if it were needed)
I've been away for a week or so on business, and haven't had time to check out the forum, so I've missed out on some of the
bollocks that's been going on with him. I only really looked at the "flash powder showdown" thread, and didn't see him picking
arguments in wantsomfets thread about ANNM/Al sensitized. The former was enough to convince me he is a prick, and when
he replied to my previous post here about theatrical flash it was simply confirmation. I'm posting this because I've just gone
through wontsomfets thread and seen just how much of a tosser he is.
Who the fuck is he, to get all aggressive and petulant with everyone about a subject that few people here can test
scientifically, and in any case is irrelevant. He has some 60 odd posts, and the majority of those seem to be about
"detonation of flash". It's all a bit suspect, that is of course until you find out the real reason for his enthusiasm, and that is
because he is a plant by the "flash marketing board", who are attempting to convince us that flash is the bestest explosive
there is, and we never need anything else. Before you know it, there will be flash branded t-shirts, flash candy, and maybe
even a film about flash, featuring Arnie blowing away aliens with flash submunitions in his M60. It's a true reflection of the
importance and value of the forum that they want to influence us like that as the beginning part of their "world flash year"
:rolleyes:
What the FUCK is his problem? :mad:
In wantsomfets thread, he is busy telling everybody they are wrong, using his own bitch-logic, suggesting that they are all
doing it because of ego, (And the forum is not renowned for ego), when clearly the only ego at play is his own. <img
In his own (now closed) thread, he's busy doing similar things and even telling us what NBK thinks.
And now the prick sees me posting on another thread that mentions flash, and he tries to get things going here too. He didn't
even answer my question, which was about theatrical flash. Ok, the title of the thread is "how dangerous is flash", but he starts
with a cursory, "you should be careful etc", and then launches into his pet subject with
"not only because it detonates and so has great power (and this shockwave will set other firecrackers nearby off, as well as it
will set off high explosives)" (Although Mr Cool appears to have edited this off his post now)
He's simply hoping that someone will argue the toss and he can begin jerking off all over again.
Chris, it's obvious and it's pathetic. More specifically, YOU are pathetic. :p (Flame)
Mods, he has been warned by you and by other members and STILL he can't shut the fuck up. What are the chances of giving
him a flash enema and then fucking him up his newly reamed hole?
(If you could leave this thread open and help me out on the theatrical flash question it would be appreciated)
[ May 28, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]

Last fall I cleared up my basement where many of my chemicals are stored. I happened to find a big ziplock bag full with
about 500 g KMnO4 flash. oops. I forgot I still had it. It was about 7-8 months old. I went to a nearby orchard put some fuse
in it and waited for it to flash. Men! What a flash!! It was going Woooosh - a deep, rumbling sound with lots of heat and even
more smoke pillowing skywards like an atomic mushroom.
It was sure fun but I'd never mix up such a big amount of flash anymore, guess that's a tad too dangerous.
BrAiNFeVeR May 28th, 2002, 03:58 PM

Are you trying to tell us that 500 grams of KMnO4 flash, slightly confined (plastic bag) won't detonate ????
Even without the bag it should !!!
That must have been a pretty lousy flash mix ...
Do you still remember the proportions KMnO4/Al/S that where used ?
[ May 28, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: BrAiNFeVeR ]

I'm getting the impression you people are somewhat to careful with flash, in the extent that you don't dear to mix it properly.
I always add acetone and stirr with a big spoon. You should get something like silver paint. Let this dry and you have much
better flash, at least with my KMnO4/Al/S it makes a huge difference.
Do NOT use alcohols!
Toppholzers flash was probably not well mixed or oxidized during storage.
And flash is in no way more sensitive than AP! Have you ever seen AP withstand an airrifle impact? Most flashes do....

Exactly, but you're missing Chris's point. He isn't actually interested in whether it is more or less sensitive than AP, he's just
trying to extend his farcical argument.
And as a reminder, I reseurrected this thread 'cos it was one of two that came up when I was searching for "theatrical flash":
1. Is it the same as normal flash, if not:

2. What is it made of? and
3. Can it be sensitised to explode rather than just burn fast?

If it contains KClO3, sensitize by adding MnO2.

When you say "normal flash" what exactly do you mean? 70% KClO4 and 30% Al is a standard flash mixture for salutes. Is
this the sort of normal flash you're referring to?
Digging on rec.pyrotechnics reveals that there are several varieties of theatrical flash. Some are designed to burn relatively
slowly and sparkle; others are supposed to give a nice "WHUMP!" concussion effect (faster burning). It appears that theatrical
flash commonly uses magnesium or magnalium as the fuel and a nitrate as the oxidizer.
Many formulations also come separated, so that the oxidizer and fuel are mixed onsite (to make shipping easier).
When you say you want to sensitize the flash to explode instead of just burn fast, what exactly do you mean? This gets back
to the whole dreaded "does flash detonate?" topic. Do you mean you want it to burn fast enough to go "bang" just with self
confinement? It may be possible to separate the metal from oxidizer by dissolving the oxidizer and filtering. The metal could
then be mixed with a more potent oxidizer for a more powerful flash. However, fine magnesium/magnalium may react with
water and even alcohols, so this may not be advisable. It is easier if you have the kind that needs to be mixed and the
components are still separate.
Something interesting that I read last night (but have not yet confirmed) is that vanadium pentoxide can serve as a
decomposition catalyst for nitrates, rather like MnO2 can catalyze chlorates. Vanadium pentoxide is available for use in
ceramics at fairly reasonable prices. It would be interesting to try making some comparison compositions. If it really does
catalyze things, adding a bit to nitrate-based flash and thoroughly mixing might yield a more potent formulation as well.
If you're willing to settle for a "bang" with confinement, I have found even wimpy Al/S/KNO3 flash to make a respectable noise
when confined in a triangle or tube salute.

To clarify, "normal flash" to me means something in a salute, whereas theatrical flash goes "poof" in a flashpot, emitting a
flash and cloud of smoke (and said fairy godmother). I'm wondering if theatrical flash just goes poof because it's unconfined.
I'm asking because I'm coinsidering buying some, and am hoping to manage my expectations in working out whether the
stuff would be useful in, or could be excited enough for a salute.
Bit of an ambiguous question really I suppose <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
zaibatsu May 28th, 2002, 05:50 PM

If Vandium Peroxide catalyses the decomposition of nitrates, can it be added to BP? Or maybe to speed up burn rate the
NH4NO3/Charcoal propellant.

Krimmie - im sure the neighbours were pleased with that flash <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Ark - i think all LE's will make a nice WHUMP or POOF if unconfined. The theatrical flash should be able to be used in salutes,
either tubes or trangular ones. If it sends out a lot of smoke (personally ive never seen it used) and a large flash, it will make
enough pressure when ignited confined to burst the tube, or shoot out the fuse hole with a nice bang.
Armstrongs (and im sure BP, flash etc) can make a very nice bang even if it doesnt burst the tube. I use miniscule amounts of
it in small plastic tubes, which have no sign whatsoever of breakage or stress after being set off, but they make a sharp crack,
not a dull whump or anything.
All the salute instructions ive read say you have to make the tube break in the middle, and not have the ends pop out first for
a nice bang. They also use so much more LE, i mean, a commercial BP cracker uses a lot of BP, my ones use about 8 caps,
which i think equals to around 1.6 grains. (I use caps for the armstrongs). They wont do much like that, but if you put in
double the caps they will blow apart a lot of things.
Sorry that just got off topic. Im sure theatrical flash can be used for salutes, even lift charges and stars. I think it would be
worth it for you to buy some and test it, im pretty sure it could be used for explosives.
I mean, really its just a weaker flash mix, but its still powerful. it might use 450-500 mesh Al/Mg, or larger grained oxidisers,
or just more oxidisers or something. If for some reason though it doesnt work, try adding some chlorate/perchlorate to it, or
making a solution of it, then filtering out the metals, if they dont react with the solvent that is. Then add some stronger
oxidisers.

BrAiNFeVeR - Nope. I don't recall the proportions anymore. Too long ago and since that day I decided to go for high
explosives - didn't mix up flashpowder anymore. But I guess I'll be tempted now that vulture mentioned the possibility mixing
the powder by using acetone.
Vulture - do you think it would still have a nice effect if I use acetone and add some NC lacquer as a binder? I guess I should
try this. Could be fun. I just think of filling up a coke tincan with KMnO4/Al/S flash with a bit of NC lacquer, sticking a pencil in
it, perssing the whole stuff and letting it dry. After it's hardened, I'll put in a HMTD detcap and see what happens.... I guess it
could be some sort of flashbang.

Hmm I don't think using NC lacquer is a good idea, because NC and KMnO4 are soluble in acetone, so you will end up with
KMnO4/NC on the inside and a layer of sulfur on the outside. The reason acetone improves the flash is because it let's the
KMnO4 crystallize inside the Al and S grains. You get a silver/yellow powder with very fine clusters. Whereas KClO3/Al takes
30s to burn down in a paper tube, this one goes whoosh with a big flash and sometimes a little bang on the end with the
same paper tube.
If you mix it with the acetone and than press it hard and let it dry, it keeps the shape you pressed it in, but it's somewhat
brittle. Maybe try this in a small tube and when you have got a little stick of flash cover this one with NC lacquer.

thanks, vulture. I'll try this out anyways. Sounds promising. A very intimate mixture - I guess by mechanical mixing one
couldn't accomplish that. Plus: by having a wetted down powder it's not very friction sensitive so it shouldn't be a problem
compressing it with a little more force than one might dare with a dry powder...

I did some more digging on rec.pyrotechnics. V2O5 is said to catalyze the decomposition of KNO3 - presumably other alkali
metal nitrates as well. I don't know if it would also be effective with NH4NO3. It appears that V2O5 is sometimes used in
nitrate based rocket propellants for higher performance. It's not regularly used in pyrotechnics because vanadium compounds
are toxic.
Another couple of interesting tidbits I came up with while searching for V2O5 info: ferrous sulfate also speeds up black powder
combustion by inhibiting H2S formation, which apparently slows down the combustion rate. This effect has supposedly been
patented, but nobody in the thread I was reading mentioned a patent number.
Another related idea is to substitute potassium formate for sulfur, also eliminating H2S generation. I'm fairly certain one can
prepare potassium formate by oxidizing methanol with KMnO4 solution turned alkaline with KOH. Filter out the precipitated
MnO2. Be careful there's no excess permanganate or you may have an unpleasantly sensitive mixture when it comes time to
ball-mill.
Yet another idea mentioned was to substitute a eutectic mixture of different nitrates for KNO3. The lower melting point of the
mixed nitrates lead to easier initiation and (one presumes) a somewhat higher burn rate. Anyone have information about
melting points for KNO3/NaNO3 mixtures? One individual suggested 55:45 KNO3:NaNO3 but it'd be nice to have confirmation.
You could theoretically combine multiple of the above ideas to yield a new "superpowder": A eutectic mixture (previously fused
or dissolved/crystallized) of KNO3/NaNO3 mixed with fine charcoal and sulfur (adjusted to maintain the fuel/oxidizer ratio of
standard black powder made with pure KNO3), with (say) an additional 2% of FeSO4 and 0.5% V2O5. That's theoretically. It
does hold some interest for me, though. I see that I can get a pound of V2O5 for $19 from clayartcenter.com. That's enough
for hundreds of pounds of composition. Now I just need to find out how I can easily make ferrous (not ferric) sulfate...

Hey,Arkangel,I did some internet searching on theatrical flash awhile back,and mostly what I found were 'A-B' formulas,equal
amounts of magnesium (or alum.) and potassium nitrate which you mixed before use,though some suppliers did offer 'report
flash','red flash','sparkle flash',etc.I would guess the A-B mix is pretty slow burning,but could be boosted with a stronger
oxidizer.Most commercial suppliers prices where outrageous,though,from $20+ for a few ounces to $200+ per pound.

Ive found prices of suppliers to be ridiculous as well, charging hundreds of dollars for tiny amounts, i guess they assume any
theatrical productions using flash will have enough funds to buy it. The prices for all pyrotechnical chemicals are absolutely
ridiculous.
10fingers May 31st, 2002, 01:49 AM

My guess would be that theatrical flash is just slower burning than standard flash powder. They have something safer to use
on a set and they can always dub in the BOOM. It may be a NaNO3/Al or just a coarser mixture of a standard KClO4/Al powder.
It may be dangerous to try to ball mill it to get it finer.
I would not buy it to make a BOOM type flash unless I knew exactly what was in it.
Isn't making regular flash fairly cheap and simple?
[ May 31, 2002, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]
inferno May 31st, 2002, 04:47 AM

In some places it may be cheap, however here ive found it to be very very very expensive, Al powder costs massive sums here
(in australia) and chlorates/perchlorates/permanganates are no better..however you may be lucky and strike a cheap al
dealer, as all the oxidisers ive seen on american sites are really cheap
10fingers May 31st, 2002, 04:55 AM

*
[ June 01, 2002, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: 10fingers ]
vulture May 31st, 2002, 04:48 PM

If you have it in Oz, try to find a somewhat older painting/chemist store. They usually stock everything you need for
explosives and pyro. Virtually every precursor has a innocent use in painting or very related stuff. I pay something like 30$
voor a kg of airfloat Al powder at such a store.
S. Toppholzer June 1st, 2002, 04:39 AM

Well, I tried the mixing method with acetone.
The result was sort of strange. The resulting dried powder now looks pretty much like powdered brass after the KMnO4 dried. I
couldn't light it with a cigarette butt. I didn't try anything else yet because I would have to drive a fwe miles since I am living in
an overpopulated area with nosy neighbours.
xoo1246 June 2nd, 2002, 01:55 PM

I tried it out. It worked well. If you haven't seen it, then it's in the forum pics and videos post.
Here are the links:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/Flash01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/
Flash01.jpg</a>
Flash02.jpg</a>
Flash03.jpg</a>
Flash04.jpg</a>
Flash05.jpg</a>
vulture June 2nd, 2002, 03:04 PM

xoo, is that KMnO4/Al/S? It seems pretty OK to me, did you add some coarse Al to get those sparks?
xoo1246 June 2nd, 2002, 03:50 PM

It's sulfurless. The Al is around 80u(micro)m. I couldn't see any sparks, I was blinded. :)
Next time I'll probably try it with 25um
Could someone explain this mesh system, I don't really get it. I understand you pass the particles through a mesh, but how
large is the particles if you have, say 400 mesh?
Zambosan June 3rd, 2002, 02:22 PM

Mesh refers to how many little holes per square inch are in the mesh used to separate the fine product from the coarse. Do a
search on flash and eBay here on the forum, someone paid too much for a text file a while ago, but it did contain a mesh-
micron conversion chart, IIRC.
xoo1246 June 3rd, 2002, 03:57 PM

Yeah, that much I did understand. Thanks for the tip, I remember that post.
krimmie June 3rd, 2002, 09:33 PM

The following mesh-micron conversion table was taken from skylighter's catalog. It also shows a "typical material" of similar
size. Note that the mesh sizes in parentheses are too small to exist as actual sieves;they were included for reference.
U.S. Mesh / Inches / Microns / Typical Material

14 / .056 / 1400 /
28 / .028 / 700 / beachsand
60 / .0098 / 250 / fine sand
100 / .0059 / 150 /
200 / .0030 / 74 / portland cement
325 / .0017 / 44 / silt
400 / .0015 / 37 / plant pollen
(1200) / .0005 / 12 / red blood cell
(2400) / .0002 / 6
(4800) / .0001 / 2 / cigarette smoke
* Like I said, this was taken from the Skylighter catalog, I have no reason to believe it's not accurate.Sorry I couldn't organize
it into better columns-I suck at that stuff!
[ June 03, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: krimmie ]
xoo1246 June 4th, 2002, 01:29 PM

Thanks, that is the same as in the "ebay flash"-post

get this back on topic guys.

I've been making and using flash since 1971.I have tried all known formulas and some I came up with on my own. I have
never had flash go up by itself in 100's of batches I've mixed small and large.however if you scrape a clorate al/sulpher mix it
will explode.or cracle in small amounts(tiny).perclorate flash,I have never been able to make it go from friction. just yesterday
I had a 70/30 industry standard mix..put a small pile on concret sidewalk and beat it to a pulp with a hammer..nothing. one
stroke of clorate /al would have thumped quite nicly.
whatever you do you must not be afraid of flash. hmtd/double salts and the rest are much,much more sensitive than a
perclorate/al mix.In the 19th century,maroons,cannaon crackers and the like were clorate ,sulp,and charcoal. then with advent
of al,and mag. the flash cracker we all love today was borne.they used flowers of sulpher in millions of them then with clorate.I
myself have made many hundreds of clorate/sulpher/al mixes without mishap.the standard 70/30 perclorate/al is many times
safer than the fulminates,ap,and other primary compounds most of you have tried.anything will explode in triangles. even
matchheads...it is relatively safe. years ago I found a salute I had made 8 months earlier in my basement back east that had
fallen behind a table. the tube was all mushy from being in the basement all that time. It was clorate/al/sulpher! lol..pretty
dumb,but that shows the nature of the animal..if you follow safe procedures you should have no trouble with 70/30 perclorate/
al or even antimony trisulphide flash.just my oppinon from years of makeing it.
killa_snake November 2nd, 2003, 03:42 PM

omg the other day i lit about 13 kilos of flash powder. woa it hink i made the big bang all over again i was like at lease 20-30
meters away and i got sunburns iwore sunglasses out of glass but they cracked it was in a spectial hard plastic casing i wore
earplugs earmufs coved my head in a hat and put a rag over my ears but i almost got deafented. defenatly never doing that
again there was no sharpnel iunno y i guess the plastic vapurized intantly the trees that were beside the powder were slightly
charred black
vulture November 2nd, 2003, 04:28 PM

How the fuck could you type this post, assuming you've been blinded by 13kg of flash that cracked your sunglasses???
POSER! :rolleyes:
Hang-Man November 2nd, 2003, 04:59 PM

was no sharpnel iunno y i guess the plastic vapurized intantly
That is by far the dumbest thing I have ever read. I'm going to go hit my head on the wall until I forget I read it. I'm sorry
but when you re that stup id the government should step in and kill you.
(note my use of real words)
Rhadon November 2nd, 2003, 08:08 PM

Killa_snake has to see a doctor and will be leaving us now :D
Flake2m November 4th, 2003, 11:39 AM

The only thing more spectacular then 13kg of flash going off would be 13kg of flash going off stuck up killa_snakes ass :D.
Serously though, I have a bag of metal filings which I got by cleaning the key cutter at work. I can probaly get some KMnO4
from a pharmacy. Now what I am asking is given that the filings aren't extremely fine - its about the consistincy of cut up
needles and the metal filings seem to be fairly unreactive. I am wondering if a key cutting mix + KMnO4 would actually work.
Maybe I'd need to add an extra "ingrediant" to make it more reactive.
Bert November 5th, 2003, 11:16 PM

Shouldn't this thread be in "pyrotechnics"?
Keys aren't usualy made out of Aluminum or Magnesium...

And the scrap from a key cutter is WAY too large for use in a report mixture, even if it were an appropriate metal.
As far as the original topic(s) of this thread: Flash covers so many possible mixes made by so many methods the question
can't be answered without specifying mix, particle size and production method.
Theatrical flash is usualy Nitrate based because if you put Perchlorate/Al flash in a steel concussion mortar it may blow the
mortar to pieces. Common 2 part formulations are often a Nitrate and an EXCESS ammount of Mg powder. They produce a
cloud of Mg vapor that burns in the air over the flash pot- Safer than having a better ballanced, more brissant mix.
You may find something called "airburst" more similar to flash used in fireworks.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > KMNO4 source
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View Full Version : KMNO4 source
krimmie September 3rd, 2001, 10:17 PM

Hope this isn't old info for you all, but I have found potassium permanganate in abundance in Feed Stores(usually rural ma' and pa' shops that sell hay and the like for
livestock). Anyway, KMNO4 is used in automatic iron filters(creates fresh water from well water for those that don't get city water), and is quite cheap! I paid $13.68 for 5
lb,s...I bought the FINE grade which is cheaper than the LUMP grade $19.00. Considering my needs are different than the intended use...it works out pretty good! Sorry if you
all knew about this source, but I had not come across a post that pinpointed where to purchase this compound.
PYRO500 September 3rd, 2001, 11:45 PM

Hey krimmie, that sounds like a good deal. what F/O mixes have you made yet? I heard the KMNO4 makes water turn purple any insight anyone?

That's cool. I knew it was used in water purification, but I didn't really know where to start to look for it. I'll check it out next time I'm out in the country to buy bags of certain
fertilizer. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
krimmie September 4th, 2001, 07:10 AM

Pyro, so far I have just mixed;
KMNO4 3parst
Al 2parts
S 1part
It is real pretty and bright, but I need finer Al. And yes, it does instantly turn water purple.

Hello all,
Krimmie what country/state did ya buy the Permanganate in? 5lb's for $13.68 is great! I have seen it on Net sights for the same use as high as $25.00 a pound. What brand
name did it go by. Do they show a web page on the package? Thanks.............................
------------------
[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited September 04, 2001).]
BoB- September 4th, 2001, 08:10 PM

I've looked in the water purification section of WalMart (American department store) before, they didnt have Kmno4, but they did have huge plastic jugs of activated carbon for
$5.00
PYRO500 September 4th, 2001, 10:59 PM

It seems krimmie is caught up in an IP ban, so he has asked me to post this for him:
To BoB- Walmart will not carry this stuff, he needs to look in RURAL
areas(small animal feed stores).
To Alchemist- I live in the extreme S.E/ of the U.S. The container says;
Technical grade to use in Automatic Iron Filters. Royal Palm Bch. Fl. The
company is "Aqua Products International". Ph.# (561) 753-7800.

Thanks Pyro500!
Disturbed September 5th, 2001, 05:08 PM

I've bought a five-pound plastic jug of KMnO4 at Menards, if you happen to live near one of those. they are all over the midwest IIRC. It came in a white container that said
POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE across the front in purple letters... pretty obvious http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif And right next to that I found 93% H2SO4
also...
------------------
====
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

Hello again,
I live in California. Anyone know where to get it here at a good price? Thanks!!!
------------------

Ok I posted this in the other topic but Sears also sell it in the water purifing section of the store. I was wondering if a coffee grinder will do the job of getting the KMNO4 fine
enough? Oh ya and um no smoking when making flash http://plauder-smilies.de/smokin.gif .
-A- September 6th, 2001, 12:26 PM

KMnO4 is used in water filters??? First time I have heard of that. How do you purify water with KMnO4?. Just the tip of a teaspoon of KMnO4 is able to turn purple liters of
water!

KMnO4 destroys organics, like algae and bacteria, the filters probably have something like a carbon filter to remove the purple tint.
kretzlord October 8th, 2003, 09:39 PM

Is the Potassium Permanganate at Sears pure? If so, whats the best way to get it into a stable liquid for that will, say for instance, evaporate evenly to the sides of a glass
bottle? This is my first post, so pleast don't hate me.....
Cricket October 9th, 2003, 02:35 AM

Yea, it's pure enough for most stuff I think. Why do you want it on the side of glassware anyway? It's soluble in water. Heh heh, wear shitty or purple cloths though.
Anthony October 9th, 2003, 03:08 PM

I wonder if I can guess :)
Anarchist's CrapBook (grammar mistakes and subconscious references to beastiality removed):
Take a glass jar, coat inside with gasoline, drop in some KMnO4, cap and throw against a solid surface - packs 2 sticks of dynamite!
Perhaps coating the inside with KMnO4 and dropping in gasoline will have the same effect? :)

Now why would a chemical reaction between KMnO4 and gasoline bother to take to the time to wait around until after you throw the container to detonate?
Potassium permanganate reacts with iron ions in water as well as hydrogen sulfide, and is eventually converted to manganese dioxide. The use of potassium permanganate is
on the way out as only older filtration systems use the "green sand" method. Newer modern filtration systems use better technologies.
Hang-Man October 9th, 2003, 05:04 PM

I've seen KMnO4 for sale online for keeping ponds clean or some such garbage.
and for kretzlord : anything in the "Anarchist's CrapBook" is just that; Crap. the only thing in it that wouldn't result in a one way trip to hell is the thermite. And a four year old
could come up with that. The worst the MF....
those of you not familiar with this garbage you can read it here: http://isuisse.ifrance.com/emmaf/anarcook/indanarcook.html
T_Pyro October 31st, 2003, 02:58 AM

I just got about 50 gms of fine KMNO4 crystals from the pharmacy for Rs.30 (<1 US$). I didn't ask, but larger quantities should be even cheaper.
spaceninja October 18th, 2006, 11:08 AM

In the UK KMnO4 crystals can be purchased in most small chemists in 25g tubs.The price ranges from about 60p to over a pound.It can also be purchased in Boots but its
expensive and comes in pill form.I prefer to buy it in crystal form as there is no need to grind it into smaller pieces.
c.Tech October 19th, 2006, 05:31 AM

In Victoria, Australia I was able to purchase KMnO4 crystals for approx. $7 per 25 grams, now they have stoped selling them due to the danger of children opening the safety
locks and eating them.
Im now seeing one of those current affair shows trying to persuade the public into supporting the bans of caps for cap guns af ter a child left some in his pocket,
reached in later and got burns when they ignited.
I dont see the point of banning practically everything to make things slightly safer for the children, they may as be banning glass cups for the sharp broken glass they
leave behind when broken, they can kill unlike caps.
But what is really pissing me off is the sheeple falling for these over reactive propaganda spread by the media and getting near harmless products compared to others banned
for stupid reasons and coincidences.
inFinie October 20th, 2006, 05:24 PM

It is sold in here as water disinfectant but not drinking water. I have seen when entering to a pool you walk into KMnO4 pool for feet disinfection. There were a few tablets
which you can see the purple color around them in the water.
It is also sold for fungus treatment.
nocturnal shadow November 8th, 2006, 08:59 AM

c.Tech you were getting ripped off chronically, in NSW one of my mates got 15kg of KMnO4 for roughly $20 a kilo (probably less, thats what he selling it to me for).
He does work in a farm produce store and put in an order for it without his boss finding out but still someone was making a nice profit out of you.
On the topic of media bringing about stupid bans and laws. It really pisses me off that every time a couple of teenagers die in a car accident there's automatically a push for
more restrictions on P plate drivers. They could fix the roads but why do that when you can just lower their speed limit and make them an obstacle for other road users.
And also that instead of repair and improving roads that cause accidents they just revert back to the old 'lower the speed limit' solution.
c.Tech November 9th, 2006, 02:48 AM

c.Tech you were getting ripped off chronically
I know but it was the only place I knew where to get it, and was just a walk down the road to place the order, the next day another 3 minute walk to pick it up.
Ive got a cheaper place that sells larger qualities than 25 grams, thank you jetz ;).
On the topic of media bringing about stupid bans and laws. It really pisses me off that every time a couple of teenagers die in a car accident there's automatically a push for
more restrictions on P plate drivers. They could fix the roads but why do that when you can just lower their speed limit and make them an obstacle for other road users.
And also that instead of repair and improving roads that cause accidents they just revert back to the old 'lower the speed limit' solution.
P-plate drivers (tends to be more males) generally have the type of behaviour that causes accidents eg. speeding, burnouts, generally aggressive driving. There is no way to
stop this and P-platers will continue to drive in this way, all the laws do is make it easier to take a licence from offending drivers and limit powerful cars only to the more
experienced. This will not stop the type of behaviour which gets young drivers into an accident in the first place.
Putting a lower speed limit wouldnt do much, enforcing the speed is the only thing that works which is costly, inaccurate and a pain in the ass for safe drivers.
In the past when there was an accident or mishap shit happens, now every little detail and danger is limited beyond belief to cause 1 less death a year or less.
Everyone needs to face the fact, there is no way to stop death its just a way of life, we cant limit out lifestyle to such a degree until its no longer enj oyable if we do
that whats the point of living?
Universal November 15th, 2006, 12:49 AM

Well this will seem strange but I got about 500 grams for free at an antique shop in some rural south island town. The guy thought it was BP so he gave it to me for free so he
wasn't in any danger with the police. Just goes to show things can be in the least likely places.
In NZ you can buy overpriced low amounts of KMnO4 at hunting shops as a snakebite disinfectant, ironic seeing there aren't any snakes in NZ.
sv_sniper February 6th, 2007, 05:44 PM

Pyro, so far I have just mixed;
KMNO4 3parst
Al 2parts
S 1part
It is real pretty and bright, but I need finer Al. And yes, it does instantly turn water purple.
Can this mixture be lit by just a match or electrical heating coils?
Controlled Chaos February 11th, 2007, 03:29 PM

I would think so. I have not used this mixture, but I have mixed KMnO4 and MG which ignites from the smallest of sparks. Also I believe that sulfur is pretty sensitive with
KMnO4. (Possibly to shock anyone?)
I found my KMnO4 at Tracker Supply at about 20$ for 5lbs with purple letters in bold saying POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE.
Lewis February 11th, 2007, 05:23 PM

Any flash composition will ignite given the slightest provocation.
If you don't know this, you really, really shouldn't be making the stuff.
ultma February 11th, 2007, 06:05 PM

I have found this used for darkening horses coats for show
Interesting, but still not the cheapest ($20NZ for 300g) cheaper than a pharmacy ($7.50NZ 25g), condys crystals
Flash mixes with this stuff ignite great with a small drop glycerol in hollow with some unmixed KMnO4
6:8:1 KMnO4:Zn:S is pretty good
HOz September 16th, 2007, 02:00 AM

You can find KMNO4 at your local pool supply shop.
Polumna September 16th, 2007, 02:19 PM

Hello to all,
Yes, KMno4/Mg is very sensitive stuff, but it does produce more light then actually sound.
And what is KMnO4 in the pool used for?
chemdude1999 September 16th, 2007, 11:12 PM

Google is your friend.
panzerkampfwagen September 17th, 2007, 06:07 PM

Chemistrystore.com sells KMnO4 for $11.30/2lb. bucket (plus shipping). They also sell Glycerine for $29.95/gallon (10.5lbs.). You could practically melt a car with that much.
the bob September 21st, 2007, 08:56 PM

I get mine from AUBUCHON five miles away. Last time cost me about $22.00 for five pounds. A product of IRON OUT,Inc.
fredmayhew December 10th, 2007, 09:12 PM

Lowes is another good source of KMnO4. They sell 5lb containers for the typical $20-25 price tag in the water purification aisle.It's pretty good quality and finer than sugar.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > a little help here, please
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View Full Version : a little help here, please
krimmie June 18th, 2001, 11:25 PM

I've been experimenting with kno3 in combinations with sugar,sulfer and charcoal. I haven't used these all together but have come up with some decent propellants. The
problem is this: Miami is HUMID AS HELL! I can't keep these mixtures stored without the effects of humidity. Any suggestions? My ingredients are stored separately(of
course)...please advise.

Storing the mixtures in air-tight conatiners (tupperware is good) with a desicant such as calcium chloraide should help keep them dry.
krimmie June 19th, 2001, 12:36 AM

Thank you for the info Anthony. The sulfur and charcoal will be made(milled) as I need it, but the KNO3 is in a 50# bag. Thank you for the suggestion though!
c0deblue June 19th, 2001, 01:17 AM

Plastic buckets with tight-fitting lids (of the type drywall compound comes in) make good airtight containers for bulk chemicals. Two of these will easily hold 50 pounds of AN or
KNO3, with plenty of room left for a container of desiccant material.
J June 19th, 2001, 07:12 AM

If it's in a strong bag (i.e fertilizer) you could seal it up again with duct tape. You would need to replace the duct tape every now and again, especially if you intended to leave
it for a while. However, the previous suggestions are a better bet than this.
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/&.src=bc&.view=l)

that silica gel stuff that you get with your shoes maybe available in large quantities from chemical suppliers. it does seem to keep things dry quite well.

Thank you all for your input! Even though I have stuffed BP into every type of container I could find, I have never before mixed my own stuff! Quite satisfying I must say. I
also could use a good book on this ang other related subjects. What would you all suggest? I have researched a bit, but so many people are at odds over which book is
better(talking low explosives here). Thanks again!!!!!!
SATANIC June 21st, 2001, 03:46 AM

maybe if you can't stop it from getting wet, you could dry it in the oven and make up your desired mix on site. otherwise, dry it, mix it, then seal it in tubes or wahtever you
are using, making sure to seal them with a fuse already inserted. then seal the fuse with wax or something.
mr.evil July 24th, 2001, 07:15 AM

hello,
you can make a good cannister from a pvc-pipe.
look here fro the instructions:

http://www.ctel.net/~dwilliams/
oh yeah, who can give me some info over "the armstrong mix"?
thanxx.
------------------
=mr.evil=
Lagen July 24th, 2001, 07:54 AM

You can get a lot of info on Armstrong's by searching this forum! You will end up with 14 topics! And Armstrong's mix is very dangerous, I'm sure most of the people here
wouldn't attempt it. There's a lot of other better performing and more stable mixtures.
mr.evil July 24th, 2001, 08:00 AM

ok i go searching right away!
thanxx.
------------------
=mr.evil=
deezs July 24th, 2001, 02:45 PM

If you can't afford sylicagel (as I can't), you can use CaO instead of it. Very effective, and this can be refreshed too. The only problem is, it will moulder easily. It's the best to
put it under the chemical, which you want to dry.
------------------
nbk2000 July 24th, 2001, 09:28 PM

Just go to a pharmacy and ask the pharmacist to save you the silica gel dissicant capsules that come in the bottles of pills they get. You'll have a big bag full of it in a week.
------------------
Lagen July 24th, 2001, 09:54 PM

In some countries (like mine) they use a quite different substance for pill desiccant, not sure what it is, looks very much like miniature AN prills http://theforum.virtualave.net/
ubb/smilies/smile.gif about 1mm diameter. So have a look at their "silica gel" first.
Oh and I'm sure you can get sodium silicate at hobby stores and the like in our part of the world, it's used as antifreeze for concrete and for pickling eggs. A bottle would be dirt
cheap. You can make silica gel out of it very easily!

i don't know if this stuff is available anywhere else, but in OZ you can buy this thing called a "closet camel"
and basicly, its just a little tub of little beeds (i would assume its silica - but normaly silica is clear, this stuff is kinda blue)all there used for is keeping moisture and moths out
of your closets
just have a look at the supermarket for "moisture removers" or something like that
there not a "controled" type thing so you shouldn't have to worry about making up any stories to buy it
Lagen July 25th, 2001, 10:02 PM

Mick, I'm sure you mean silicagel. Silica means SiO2, or silicon oxide, or silicic acid anhydride, which cannot dry anything.
krimdom July 25th, 2001, 10:56 PM

I've been using "damp rid" with great success. It is a necessary thing in our hot and humid climate. I appreciate the ideas! I was formerly krimmie on this board. Thanks again.
Demolition July 26th, 2001, 10:29 AM

You can find some of those moisture removers in the packing of new computers and other electrical goods.
------------------
To be untouchable one must first surround himself with the strong.
Demolition
[This message has been edited by Demolition (edited July 26, 2001).]

Today I tried to make silicagel using OTC materials (waterglass solution - cost cca $0.45/0.5l, battery sulfuric acid - cost cca $0.50/1l).
Procedure: Put 100ml waterglass solution into a preferably larger beaker. Pour in approx. 100ml battery acid, in small portions. Break up the solidified mass with a stirring rod
after each addition. Stop the additions when there's no liquid remaining in the beaker, only moist lumps of silicagel. Wash twice with ca 1 l water, while breaking up the lumps.
Let sediment, pour off the water and place the powder on a piece of Al foil in an evaporating dish. Dry and regenerate at 200C for at least 1 hour. Yield: 28g (after some
losses) of white crumbly solid. This has apparently a large surface area, but unlike the traditional beads is rather difficult to manipulate. Therefore I suggest that you seal it in a
paper pocket. Does anybody have an idea how the solid, transparent beads of silica gel could be produced? I tried various modifications of this process, but I'm always getting
the same white, crumbly product.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C alcium hypoclorite
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View Full Version : Calcium hypoclorite
mark S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2001, 09:28 PM

I just found a big tub of this stuff, 68% pure. Its got a verry large oxidiser sym bol on it. Any uses for it? I read about potasium
chlorate from hypoclo rite bleach, could I m ake chlorate from this stuff? C ould I ju st uses it state off and mix it with a fuel and
put it in cratemakers? Any ideas? My m outh watered when I saw that oxidiser sign on it.
FadeToBlackened S e p t e m b e r 1 7th, 2001, 10:05 PM

A se arch wou ld have yielded your info but,...
Y e s , y o u c a n m ake chlorate from it, but no, its not a great oxidizer. Convert it to chlorate or perchlorate

How do I con cert it to a chlorate? I did a search , and all I found was how to make it from bleach. Also, where can I find
p o t a s i u m chloride?

W ell, let's give you another hint. Bleach contains a solution of sodium hypochlorite.
Edit: in m y country you can find KCl in diet-salt. They contain several percentages, in my country up to 70% KC l. This can be
s e p a r a t e d f r o m NaCl by fractional recrystallization, since KCl is less solub le than NaCl.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y t v s 1 7 ( e d i t e d S e p t e m ber 18, 2001).]
CodeMason S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2001, 05:18 AM

Fucking hell, I'm sick of hearing this sam e g o d d a m n question over and over.

Yes,I can tell by the verry unh apy smililey of yours. But all the posts I have read m ake it from a liquid, and I'm dealing with a
solid. Does anyone have any instructio ns?

"all the posts I have read m ake it from a liquid"
No. They make it from a solution. Recall what a solution is and apply the idea to your solid.
------------------
"Shit happen s. Get a fucking helm et"
A-BOMB S e p t e m b e r 1 8th, 2001, 09:56 PM

Read this here
http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/chlorate_EN.htm l#thermal
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb

Originally posted by mark:
Yes,I can tell by the verry unh apy smililey of yours. But all the posts I have read m ake it from a liquid, and I'm dealing with a
solid. Does anyone have any instructio ns?
Arghhh..
L e a r n s o m e chem istry man! It m ay safe your life!

T h a n k s a l l , y o u ' v e b e en varry help full. Ive decided not to try the experiment, as the idea of boilin g c h e m i c a l s d o e s n o t s o u n d
a p e a l i n g . I m ight try the electrolic method, though.
skunkdude S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2001, 11:39 AM

sorry to be a bitch ladies and gents, but i was wondering how m u c h N a C l i s h o u l d u s e f o r b o t h p r o c e e d u r e s ( b l e a c h a n d C a H C I )
in A bombs link for m a k i n g N a C l 3 i n s t e a d o f K C l 3 .
------------------
"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"
CodeMason S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2001, 12:19 PM

Calcium hypochlorite is Ca(OC l)2, since th e calcium ion has a charge of +2, and it is hypochlorite, a salt of
chloric(I) acid, HO Cl. C aHCl would not exist, since there is no H2Cl acid (hydrogen and chlorin e b o t h h a v e
valencies of 1), and if it did it would be called calcium hydrochloride or something sim ilar. Chlorate is ClO3. Don't forget the O!
Sorry for being finicky, but you really shouldn't be playing with pyrotechnics if you don't even know the very basics like this.
skunkdude S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2001, 01:04 PM

Don't appolagise it was a stup i d m i s t a k e t o m a ke, i'm just very tired. Also i'm only an A levle student, unlike m o s t o f y o u g u y s
here who pro bably ha ve phd's and the like. I'm trying to learn and it's co nstrictive criticism s like yo urs which really help. I find
that the forum is kind of like a class, where i can learn, except that its m ore fun.
As m uch as i hate to adm it it, i'm still a newb with m uch to learn.
p.s. i don't play with pyrotechnics, it is an art, n ot a toy.
------------------
"Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity"
[This message has been edited by skunkdude (edited September 27, 2001).]
CodeMason S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2001, 01:23 PM

It's alright, I was once a newb too. Chem istry is a breeze once you get the hang of it.
The_Executioner March 26th, 2004, 09:45 AM

Sorry if this sounds a bit stupid but I h a v e s e a r c h e d m a ny sites (including this one) and found no answer.
W hy when making chlorates from calcium hypochlorite or bleach cant alum i n i u m c o n t a i n e r s / p o t s b e u s e d ? I t s a y s u n d e r
e q u i p m e n t w h e n u s i n g hypochlorites to m a k e c h l o r a t e s t o u s e a h e a t r e s i s t a n t g l a s s or stainle s s steel containe r. I t d o e s n t
h a v e a l u m inium container as a selection only stainless steel. Is it because hypochlorites are corrasive in water and m a y e a t
t h e m etal away? But that wou ldn t e x p l a i n t h a t w h e n I h a v e b o iled bleach in alum inium p o t s nothing went wrong.
Thank you very m uch for your help, The Executioner.
Mumble March 26th, 2004, 10:52 PM

If it worked for one hypochlorite, don't you think it will still work for the others?
W h a t m a y h a v e h a p p ened with the ble ach, if it indeed does corrode Al, is that the white Al2O3/Al(OH)3 may just be
unnoticable with the white chlorate. Many metals have colored oxides so it is easy to distinguish, transition metals expecially.
U s e a l u m inum containers if you wish, but I wou ldn't recom e n d m o t h e r ' s c o o k i n g d i s h e s . A t l e a s t u s e a c h e a p o n e f r o m
goodwill. If it does corrode it's not that big of a deal. You can just filter the oxide out of a hot solution.
lucas October 16th , 2 0 0 4 , 0 4 : 1 7 P M

Q U O TE: "hypochlorite , a salt of chloric(I) acid, HO Cl"
C O R RECTION: Hypoichlorites are salts of hypochlorous acid HOC l. Chloric acid is HO2Cl an d form s chlorites. They are not
c o m m on and chloric acid only exists in solution, it cant be isolated as a pure species.
Don't use hypochlorite solutions on aluminium . Hypochlorite salts are strong and very unstable oxidisers. They will react with
reactive metals when they are exposed to them . Foreign metalic and other ions in mixture with the chlorate salts yo u seek will
m a k e t h e m l e s s s t a b l e a n d c a n a c t a s c a t a l y s t s f o r d e c o m position in certain mixtures.
Before the "Idefence incident" I posted in this thread about am m o n i u m s a l t s o f o x y c h l o r i n e a c i d s . I a l s o m ade reference to
trichloroisocyanuric acid, CAS [87-90-1], the other chlorinator for pools. T his com pound, reacts with water to release chlorine
and cyanuric acid. It is an unstable compound with potential react with oxidisers, acids,water and reducing agents to form a
n u m ber of toxic com pounds including carbon m onoxide hydrogen chloride and nitrogen oxides. It can cause fire with fuels. It is
a cyclic comp o u n d , t h e m a i n s i x m e m bered ring is of alternating Carbon and Nitrogen with carbonyl on the carbons and chlorine
on the nitrog ens. (Iso)cyanuric acid, CAS [108-80-5], has hydrogen bonded to oxygen bonded to the carbons and alternatin g
double bonds between the carbons and nitrogens.
All a m m onium oxychlorine salts are more unstable than the analogs with m etalic cations. Amm onium chlorate is a prim e
e x a m p l e . B e f o r e t h e l o s s o f t h e o l d m a t e r i a l a n d p o s t s , a m monium nitrate / hypochlorite salt m ixtures were m e n t i o n e d . I
believe this to be a substance of potentially high sensitivity for an am m onium nitrate m ixture. If water or o ther solvents are
able to facilitate exch a n g e o f i o n s b e t w e e n a m m onium nitrate and, eg, calcium hypochlorite, the p articularly unstable
a m monium hypochlorite will render the m ixture u n s a f e f o r s t o r a g e , a n d p o s s i b l y s p o n t a n e o u s l y c o m bustible with fuels. NM / AN
/ K chlorate is a m ixture of no te. It is used as a "reactive target". The se nsitivity is facilitated by the form a t i o n o f a m m o n i u m
chlorate in the m ixture. This is advantageous on occasion but dangerous if not anticipated. I there fore warn and inform others
that calcium hypochlo rite and other hypochlorite salts are sensitisers for am monium nitrate. For ex ample sulphur will
spontaneously ignite in contact with hydrated calcium hypochlorite. This can be put to use if desired, in the form of a primative
dela y e d s m o ke grenade. A barrier in the device seperating the two substances is rem o v e d b e f o r e u s e a n d t h e d e v i c e s h a e n t o
m i x t h e s u b s t a n c e s . T i m e o f d e l a y i s c o m m only around 20 seconds in such devices used by yours truly. The limited am ount of
oxygen in hypochlorite, ClO- means it is not partilularly usefull as an oxidiser on it's own. Chloride Cl- ions are the usual
product of reactions of hypoch lorite.
On a not so happy side note hypochlorite will react with secondary carbon yls to form chloroform. Than m eans the hypochlorite/
hypochlorous acid in YOU R drinking wa ter, used to kill b acteria reacts with organic m aterial in natural fresh water to form
chloroform in your drinking wa ter. Thats a fact. The sam e reaction m e c h a n i s m canbe used to create chloroform from
hypochlorite solution and acetone. Is such a case the hypochlorite should be used in solution and addition of acetoneshould be
very slow to avoid boiling of the chloroform as the reaction is quite exoth erm ic.
3 m o l e C l O - : 1 m ole acetone .
cyclonite4 October 19th , 2004, 12:42 AM

Q U O TE: "hypochlorite , a salt of chloric(I) acid, HO Cl"
C O R RECTION: Hypoichlorites are salts of hypochlorous acid HOC l. Chloric acid is HO2Cl an d form s chlorites. They are not
c o m m on and chloric acid only exists in solution, it cant be isolated as a pure species.
u m m... lucas, hypoch lorous acid IS chloric(I) acid. The "I" refers to the oxidation state of the chlorine in the acid. For exam ple,
perchloric acid is the sam e as chloric(VII) acid. It helps when your correcting som eone to actually p rove what you say.
tmp D e c e m ber 12th, 2004, 07:43 AM

Usin g a glass cooking pot(Pyrex or Kim ax), put the C a(O Cl)2 in water
a n d b o i l f o r a b o u t 3 0 m i n u t e s . T h e t h e r m al decomposition will result
i n C a ( C l O 3 ) 2 a n d C a C l 2 . W o u ter's page discusses the therm al
d e c o m p o s i t i o n o f h y p ochlorites to chlorates and chlorides. Chill the
pot down to freezing. Most of the CaCl2 can be filtered out. The
m ore the solution is boiled do wn, the m ore CaCl2 will precipitate out.
M y C R C m a n ual, 52nd Edition, 1971-1972 lists the following solubility

data(in gram s per 100 m l water):
CaCl2, 74.5 @ 20 C, 159 @ 100 C
T h e d a t a f o r C a ( O C l ) 2 a n d C a(C l O 3 ) 2 a r e l i s t e d a s s o l u b l e , b u t n o
a m ounts listed.
FUTI D e c e m ber 13th, 2004, 01:17 PM

Just a simple question...is that pure Ca(OCl)2 or C a(O C l ) 2 * C a C l 2 ? I t m akes thing little trickier you know...
cyclonite4 D e c e m ber 29th, 2004, 09:18 AM

Just a simple question...is that pure Ca(OCl)2 or C a(O C l ) 2 * C a C l 2 ? I t m akes thing little trickier you know...
The 'granulated pool chlorine' bought from poo l/hardware stores is fairly pure Ca(OCl)2.4H2O, when doing stoich. with it you
have to make sure you account for the water of hydration, otherwise it will fuck up like my friends attem pt at KClO3 from
C a ( O C l ) 2 . 4 H 2 O (He thought it was Ca(OCl)2 ), and as a result he ended up with an im p u r e s a m ple which p roved alm ost
useless, thanks to excess KCl.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C eram ic casings
Log in
View Full Version : Ceramic casings
xoo1246 May 21st, 20 02, 04:3 8 PM

M y m o m does ceram ics and has an owen where you could make ceram ic pieces. I was thinking tha t m a y b e o n e c o u l d u s e
s o m ething like this:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com /~u47802930/P5210001.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia .com/~u4780293 0/
P5210001.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com /~u47802930/P5210002.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia .com/~u4780293 0/
P5210002.jpg</a>
to m a k e b e a utifull pyrotechnic shells b o t h b e f o r e a n d a f t e r u s e . I r e m e m ber reading that the chinease used ceram ic dragons
filled with BP to scare their enem ies. I'm only spawning, hope you don't m ind. Anyone has any other ideas how you could use
ceram ics or the owen.
O h , a n d t h e f r a g m e n t a t i o n f r o m t h e a s e w o u l d n 't be that nice(sharp).
Another thing is that I can get inexpensive m etal oxides when she orders clay.
<sm a l l > [ M a y 2 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 4 3 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : x o o 1 2 4 6 ] < / s m all>
kvitekrist May 21st, 20 02, 05:5 9 PM

I know pirates used clay grenades filled with BP.
s o m ething like this:

<img src="http://hom e.no.net/gjalring /sp/gr.GIF" alt="" />
m ade in 5sec :)
inferno May 22nd, 2002, 04:41 AM

Itd throw some nasty shrapnel, pretty m uch like glass, and would be m uch heavier than plastic. A good casing for stars is the
plastic containers out of kinde r surprises, and i saw a post with little plastic egg things which were pretty mu ch the sam e.
Overall i think youd b e m uch better off with paper or plastic casing, the ceramics would be heavy, a bit harder to loa d , a n d
m ore dangerous. Also, if you accidently dropped one, it would smash.
Microtek May 22nd, 2002, 05:17 AM

A low-explosive filler would likely cause the case to rupture before all the filler had deflagrated and would sling unpleasant
fragm ent around - stoneware is notoriously poor at withstanding stretching forces. However, if a high-explosive filler was used,
the casing would be pulverized by the shock, and only relatively harm less dust would be the result. A possibility for an
offensive typ e h a n d g r e n a d e .
xoo1246 May 22nd, 2002, 01:02 PM

Yeah, it's very brittle, I didn't think of using it IRL, only playing with tought. You could make grena de bodies, but th e n y o u
could use plastic as well and with bette r results(strength ,elastic)
xyz May 24th, 2002, 01:59 AM

If you're talk ing about using it in grenades then it would be a lot better than plastic becau se it is h eavier and the shrapnel will
have a lot more kinetic energy stored in it.

Not at all. It's a crystalline solid, so it'll cleave pretty easily and the internal pressure will n ot get near what it would with a tough
plastic shell. The velocity of the fragm ents will be much lower, and even though they're he avier, K.E. = 1/2 m *v^2.
Bitter May 24th, 2002, 04:57 PM

How about vacuum fo rm ing thick plastic instead ? Apparently, it can be done from hom e relatively cheaply.
Arkangel May 31st, 20 02, 09:4 1 AM

How about casting som ething with GRP resin?
First you take a latex m ouldin g off a p ineapple g r e n a d e , t h e n y o u

m ake an inner case by wrapping glass rovings around som ething like a bit of inflated innertube, wetting them with resin and
then letting them cure. After that, you pop the casing in side the mould, and fill up around it with casting resin (with m i n i m a l
catayst/accelerator, as it will overheat and crack all over and be very weak.
Once that is all cooled down and cured, you take off the latex m o u l d a n d t h e n y o u h a v e a nice, ne at hollow body, ready to fill.
inferno May 31st, 20 02, 10:0 0 AM

A r k : i a s s u m e g l a s s r o v i n g s a r e g l a s s s h a v i n g s o r s o m ething? It'd shatter. I think the best "grenade" is a crater m aker with a
s o d a b u l b ( C O2 cartridge). But anyway back to topic, plastic or paper would be m uch bette r for fireworks, lighter(=less lift
charge, more height etc), less dangerous, easier to load, not susceptible to shattering...
Arkangel May 31st, 20 02, 10:0 9 AM

Fibreglass rovings are a kind of string m ade with glass strands, used either in a cloth called "woven rovings", in a "chopper
gun" for spraying the glass/resin m i x o n t o a m o u l d i n g , c h o p p e d i n t o s m aller pieces for casting, or the way I'm describing,
wrapping round and round a m oulding along with the resin. On a larger scale, they make grain silo s from this material, winding
it on like a big cotton spool. For this application it would be really strong, and you 'd get a pretty high bursting pressure.
Bitter May 31st, 20 02, 10:3 1 AM

I suppose it would be possible, but the resins used for fibreglass are not the m ost suitable for the desired purpose.
Polystyrene is a pretty brittle plastic even with the glass reinforcement. Epoxy would be a little better, but pretty exp ensive. I'm
goin g to atte mpt to try vacuum form i n g 3 m m PVC in the not too distant future. I'll tell you how I get on.
Arkangel May 31st, 20 02, 12:1 4 PM

I've worked with GRP for m uch of m y life, and I can say that it is a very little appreciated material in term s of strength. If I
talked about Carbon or Kevlar rovings then people would be more impressed, but not based on massive experience.
Fibreglass is reputedly stronger than steel, weight for weight. The trick with som ething like this is g etting your construction so
that it bursts evenly.
G R P i s m a d e with polyester resin, which I think is a quite different m aterial to Polystyrene. I have stopped a .22 LR slug with
6 m m o f G R P l a m inate, so with m ost LE's it shouldn't just shatter. Plus if you surround the central container in an exterior of
resin (shaped like a pineapple grenade) It's going to shatter along the break lines of the mould.
Moving it slightly back on topic, when we're talk ing about fabricating bursting casings, I thought about casting in plaster of
Paris. W ith BP it might be effective do you think?
<sm all>[ May 31, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</sm all>

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > The final flashpowder contest
Log in
View Full Version : The final flashpowder contest
Chris Shiherlis May 22nd, 2002, 03:19 PM

Just a short introduction: there is an endless discussion going on whether flashpowder detonates or not. In the thread "ANNM
Al sensitized" Wantsomfet succeeded in detonating AN/NM with 3.5 gram flashpowder and inevitably the discussion started
again.
I say flashpowder detonates, producing a shockwave, detonating the AN/NM mixture.
Most of you guys say it doesn't detonate it just deflagrates and the initiation of the secondary NM explosive is caused by the
"rupturing of the tube" and this effect could be compared to the blow of a hammer (which we all know can set secondary high
explosives off).
And additionally you say low (deflagrating) explosives (e.g. blackpowder) can set off secondary explosives (e.g. PETN).
Now, here is the solution to end this dispute once and forever:
try to detonate the AN/NM mixture with blackpowder. You don't have to use 3.5 gram like with flashpowder. And you don' have
to use a small, thin walled, open ended cillinder. You can use a heavy firecracker or even a 10kg blackpowder charge in a
heavy steel cilllinder. I don't care.
I say: it won't do shit! Even the 10kg charge. More precisely: the blackpowder will deflagrate and spread (and waste) the AN/
NM mixture.
According to your theory that deflagrating low explosives will deliver a blow to the AN/NM causing it to detonate, blackpowder
and flashpowder (being both deflagrating explosives in your opinion) can be considered equal. And using 3.5 gram of
blackpowder should be equal to 3.5 gram flashpowder (according to you).
But let's play it save and use an overkill, so we can end this discussion once and for all.
If you don't succeed in detonating the AN/NM mixture it will proof that (deflagrating) LE's don't initiate (secondary) high
explosives.
And it's already proven that flashpowder does. Which means if you don't succeed it proves that the flashpowder detonated.
Agree?
If it turns out that you all are right, I will apologize, disappear and never show up again. On the other hand if I am right, I
want a five star rating and I want you to get Pamela Anderson to suck my dick (I will accept that as a apology and consider the
case closed) :) . OK?
[ May 22, 2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]
Chris Shiherlis May 22nd, 2002, 03:42 PM

Another easy test is the one XOO suggested. Put flashpowder in a metal capsule ignite (detonate :) ) it. Get the shrapnel and
study it, and compare it to the shrapnel produced by an equal amount of AP and BP in the same kind of capsules. Should tell
you it detonated (at least a part because the flashpowder starts deflagrating because of lack of confinement).
Anyway I would like to point out clearly that if the result to this test is positive it also means you get Pamela Anderson
overhere, understood?
So no matter how you proof flashpowder detonates Pamela Anderson is part of the deal. No way to avoid that :) .
S. Toppholzer May 22nd, 2002, 03:56 PM

Well, as much as I know a foolproof way of proving a detonation has happened is the metal plate denting-test.
If you succed in detonating flashpowder on a metal plate and the plate is afterwards dented, you've succeded in detonating it.
I personally belive that flashpowder can be detonated under certain circumstances but the results will be unpredictable and
unreliable - i.e. one time you succeed detonating it and the next time it won't detonate even you're using the same mixture
and the same setup. I never made the afore mentioned test but once have been caught by surprise when I lit a flashpowder
charge (the size of about a pack of cigarettes) through a small amount of Armstrong's mix that was set off by a regular fuse.
Waht happened was what I'd defiantely call a shockwave. Awesome result for flashpowder. I never ever was able repeating this
again...
When I was a kid farmers used to blow up tree stumps with ANFO that was initiated with a charge of flashpowder.
What actually happens (I believe) is that flash powder releases very hot gasses when burning, coupled with a short, but high
pressure peak and particles of molten Al or iron oxide (as would be the case with termite mixtures)... This combined hits a
secondary HE and makes it detonate.
The same principle (but much more reliable) for detonating secondary HE's via thermal/pyrotechnical initation is being used in
<a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/
srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,227,116'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,227,116&RS=PN/6,227,116" target="_blank">US Patent N
6,227,116</a>
[ May 22, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]
Anthony May 22nd, 2002, 04:09 PM

I have but two points:
1) Good flash deflagerates faster than BP - so they are not equal (how much difference this will make, I do not know)
2) Does the BP have to be in a standard blasting cap configuration, or can we do what we wish with it as long as only BP is
used in the firing train?
Lastly a question: Does anyone have the impact sensitivity of ANNM to hand?
Madog555 May 22nd, 2002, 04:30 PM
flash doies not detonate. it is a fuel oxidizer mix. it does deflagerate extremely fast though.
it doesnt have a shockwave go throgh it. ok, here is proof. press flash into a pellet. now it has a high density. if it is ignited it
wont go blam. it will only burn from one side of the pellet to the other very fast. if it was a HE it would detonate, the density
would be high and the shockwave (not a flame) will travel faster through it. pressing a HE and pressing flash have oposite
effects. flash needs a little air in it so it flashes through. a HE has a shockwave travel through it so it goes faster with a higher
density.
kingspaz May 22nd, 2002, 06:36 PM

well, what i'd like to say is i agree with everyone!
i believe flash does detonate and it doesn't!
i think is set off with a cap, like NaCl and vaseline (fuel+oxidiser), it will detonate. but if ignited it will burn extremely fast. i
think the ANNM may have been set off by the expansion produced as the flash burns. when gases get hot they expand. flash
burns VERY hot therefore the gas expands alot forming a kind of shockwave similar but not the same as an HE (kind of like a
FAE but smaller). well thats my opnion anyways.
Madog555 May 22nd, 2002, 06:48 PM

yes!! that is probaly correct
it realy depends on the flash though.
there is a plastic explosive in KIPE1 that is KClO4/Al and motor oil(i think)
but when ignited it definately burns. but very fast
SATANIC May 22nd, 2002, 08:16 PM

kingspaz - NaCl and vaseline :confused: as a detonator or to be detonated? i don't get what you're saying ??? I wouldn't have
thought that would work.
I think there is the possibility of it detonating, though because it burns so fast (almost instantaneous for good stuff) it's hard
to tell.
I have almost no experience with flash, but surely it wouldn't be sold in crackers / fireworks if there was any chance of it
detonating......
Madog555 May 22nd, 2002, 08:36 PM

he means NaClO3, its a fairly weak plastic explosive used in in german greanades in WWI i think
SATANIC May 22nd, 2002, 09:52 PM

makes sense. I didn't think it was a simple mistake. overlooked the obvious.
Microtek May 23rd, 2002, 03:47 AM

I'll just make my position clear:
- I don't know whether flash detonates or not; I'd say it probably can, as KClO4 is comparable with AN which definitely is
capable of detonation if mixed with fine Al powder. However, as any other flammable explosive it will need some time to make
the DDT ( if it does at all ).
- I tend to think that the initiation may be caused by the intense thermal shock and high velocity metal particles ( Al from the
flash ). As in silver acetylide where the liberated silver breaks the chemical bonds in the secondary explosive, or in exploding
bridgewire detonators where the vaporized copper "slaps" the explosive with a similar effect.
- About the test proposed by Chris, that will only prove anything if the test is positive; it's a basic mathematical theorem that it
is impossible to prove a negative statement. Of course, with enough negative repetitions you may say that the black powder
method is an impractical method of initiating ANNM.
However, it should be possible to examine whether flash exhibits the effects of colliding shockwaves if initiated simultaneously
from each end. So, I propose the following test:
A circular flash-charge of uniform loading density is placed on a witness plate and ignited at on point of the circle. Then, if the
charge achieves detonation, the shockwaves should collide at about the opposite point on the circle and this would be evident
from a significantly deeper dent at this point.
S. Toppholzer May 23rd, 2002, 06:14 AM

yep. Just as I suggested. Easy English: the "denting test".
And Madog - no: this ain't no prove at all. There are many HE's that won't detonate but burn when lit.
inferno May 23rd, 2002, 07:02 AM

Im open to another view, but im pretty sure flash cant be detonated like a HE, but maybe detonated like armstrongs. The
force from the detonator is rather like hitting it with a hammer, which will ignite armstrongs most of the time, and flash, which i
have no experience with, i think can be ignited that way.
Say a basic flash mix of KMnO4 + Al. You cant detonate pure Al, which means its the pot. permanganate that must be
detonating. If thats the case, youre saying that KMnO4 is a HE, possibly sensitized by the Al. If all flash mixes are
detonatable, that means all the oxidisers used in pyrotechnics are HE's. That could also say that all nitrates, chlorates,
permanganates, perchlorates are HE's, even something like antimony chlorate. NH4NO3 is a HE, but i think thats more to do
with the ammonium than the nitrate, however there is a post floating about in the HE section about KNO3+NM HE, however the
mix failed to detonate from a cap of 1g hmtd and 1g petn.
What i think happens with flash is that the sudden thermal shock and the high velocity particles of burning metals (as
someone said before) detonates the secondary. Flash deflagrates really fast, and possibly a small shockwave is created. If
flash was ignited in a metal tube, the shock of the metal being broken could possibly detonate the secondary. But the hot
gasses suddenly expanding would create a somewhat weak shockwave of sorts, though i doubt that alone could detonate a
secondary. The thermal shock, combined with the fast moving metal pieces and the expansion probably combine to detonate
the he.
Chris Shiherlis May 23rd, 2002, 09:11 AM

You start to piss me off again.
I present to you a simple easy test that will proof once and forever if flashpowder detonates, and you start babbling on about
that you believe it doesn't detonate, or just sometimes, or something in between, or whatever.
If you agree to the test (and are able to come up with your end of the deal: getting Pamela Anderson over to my place :) ),
just fuckin' do it.
Stick a firecracker, a metal pipe, a 10 kg charge of blackpowder (or what ever you believe is equal to 3.5 gram deflagrating
flashpowder)in the AN/NM and ignite it! (so the same set up as Wantsomfet used with flashpowder and not BP on top of AN/NM
in a pipe or something else, if that's what you mean Anthony).
And the metal plate denting test is also a easy test compairable to the test XOO suggested. And I will tell you: a flashpowder
charge ignited by flame and somehow confined, will dent the plate. Not as deep as AP though.
And don't start talking now that it doesn't prove detonation.
STOP talking!, just do the fuckin' test I proposed.

I'll be waiting at home, waiting for the phone to ring for that sweet and familiar voice asking if it suits tonight. Yes baby, come
on over, I'll be waiting :) .
DBSP May 23rd, 2002, 09:30 AM

Why don't you do it yourself??

First of all, I don't have to convince myself that flashpowder detonates. I know it and I've seen it.
Secondly, you would not believe me, would you?
But I see I start to get a bit unpolite again. Sorry about that (it just happens when I get irritated). So let me rephrase it:
please do the test, it will give a clear result and bring an end to the discussion. It's just the most easy way. So please.

And there's another reason for you to do the test: the chance to get rid of me. That irritating, know-it-all, asshole that keeps
bothering you.
(well, I have to admit it's not much of a chance, but worth a try don't you think? :) ).
Demolition May 23rd, 2002, 09:54 AM

I'll drive 200 kms next week to pick up some NM and do the test just so you'll stop your whinging and shut your mouth. :mad:
And hopefully fuck you off from this great place which over the last couple of days has been degraded from your constant
demands and 'I know it all dont give a fuck about anyone else' attitude.

I will definetely "fuck off" and even apologize before, if I am wrong.
But even if I'm right I will reconsider my contribution to the Forum, because clearly the chemistry between me and you guys
isn't working (well actually it's kind of explosive :) ).
But believe me when I say that it was certainly not my intention. I visited the Forum with the best intentions. I even hoped to
make some friends. But it got a bit hostile and offensive the last couple of days. But you should try to see it from my point of
view: it's me against you all. No one backing me up, just on my own. In that postion everyone would get a bit defensive.
Anthony May 23rd, 2002, 12:45 PM

People are questioning the validity of your test - I don't see what's wrong with that. You have to see their logic though,
detonating ANNM with BP only proves that ANNM can be detonated by deflagerating BP. Say that the ANNM does detonate from
the BP, that doesn't definitely mean that flash doesn't detonate.
Anyway, what my proposition was, is a metal pipe containing a slug of appreciable mass. A charge of BP is ignited behind the
slug and the slug accelerates into an ANNM sample against a steel plate - in effect a BP powdered hammer. I'm sure you'd
object to this method but it still would be detonating ANNM with BP, no?
inferno - previously the KNO3/NM *did* detonate with a 1gm HMTD, 1gm PETN cap.
Microtek May 23rd, 2002, 01:14 PM

Note that the test I proposed wasn't a plate dent test where you measure the depth of the dent produced; that is a
quantitative test whereas what we need is a qualitative one. Lots of things that don't detonate will dent a steel plate, such as
rifle bullets or pipe bombs.
The property that is tested is the presence of shockwaves, so you are looking for a place where the dent is significantly deeper
than everywhere else, which will signify that there has been a collision at that point.
Chris - as I said before I witnessed once a thing that seemed like a detonation of flash powder. This leads me to believe it
can be detonated. So assuming it detonates: How many grams of flash powder do you think is needed to produce a
detonation force equivalent to a #6 or a #8 detonator? If you think you could at least guess the amount, why don't you just
take the equivalent amount, make a det. cap with it and try it on another, preferably more insensitive HE like, say TNT?
If this then would detonate TNT, I'll try getting in touch with Pam (nah, better not - she might decide she cannot live without
me) :D
Mr Cool May 23rd, 2002, 02:26 PM

Are we allowed to add other sensitisers to the ANNM, like microspheres?
And do we have to use ANNM? Can we use another secondary HE, e.g. mannitol hexanitrate? A BP charge could detonate that,
no problem at all. Could I use NaClO3/NC/Al/microspheres? It's a secondary, like ANNM, but I'm even scared about dropping
it...
I don't see how any test could prove that flash does or does not detonate, since if something decomposes by deflagrating at 1
km/sec, it will have identical effects to something that decomposes due to a shock wave at 1 km/sec.
The plate dent test is only a demonstration of the brisance of an explosive, and every explosive has brisance or "shattering
ability". BP was used in mining because it was could shatter rocks. Any explosive can dent a plate when it's set off, because
no-one has specified the thickness of the plate. Can we use Al foil? I'm sure that everyone here will accept that a piece of Al
foil is a (thin) metal plate, and that it will be dented by a firecracker. Proof that the firecracker detonates? No. And if you say
that there is a minimum thickness to the plate - say, for example, 1", if we scale up the firecracker to a 1 ton BP charge, then
it will dent the plate as if it was made from modelling clay.
A secondary high explosive can be detonated by anything, IF: the thing used to detonate the SHE has a sufficient energy
density to break enough bonds in the area surrounding it to cause a self-sustaining detonation wave; AND if it releases that
energy in a short enough time, i.e. it must produce a peak power equal to or in excess of a certain value. These two things
vary for diferent explosives; therefore for NG, a BP charge might be energetic enough and fast enough to cause a detonation.
But for ANFO, it would not be. Normal ANFO can not be detonated by a cap containing 0.1g of silver azide. Does that mean that
silver azide does not detonate?? NO! It just means that the energy contained in that amount of explosive, when spread
accross the area of ANFO in contact with the cap, is insufficient to cause a detonation.
If we put flash in a metal pipe and look at the shrapnel it won't prove anything either. If it broke the pipe into a thousand
pieces, would you say it detonated? Yes. What about if it broke it into a hundred pieces? Again, almost certainly yes. But when
will we decide that it did not detonate? Ten pieces? Five pieces? Two pieces? It's impossible to say.
Let's be honest though - does anyone here really care if flash detonates or not? Will proving or disproving it really make a big
impact on anyone's lives? It reminds me of the discussion about whether or not a #3 cap could detonate KClO3/vaseline. It
doesn't bloody matter!!!
Oh, and Chris: if you touch my girl I'll kill you, no matter what flash powder does :)
P.S. - I vote Wantsomfet gets HED for bringing up this argument again :) :)
xoo1246 May 23rd, 2002, 02:58 PM

I think we all agree on the fact that flash can detonate.
KClO3 is a H.E., some of you have used it with vaseline.
Can it detonate from chock, yes, can it burn to detonation(KClO3/Al), yes under the right conditions. Will it always do that, no.
Will it sometimes detonate partially, yes.
I belive flash is a border case, not very sutible as a primary, but could be used with sensitive secondaries.
I have learnt a lesson anyway.

"If you can waste at least an hour arguing whether or not flash detonates - then maybe you're a pyro..."
A poignant quote a I feel :) Also, Pamela Anderson??? Keep the skanky whore!
Personally, I'd like some kind of result to come of this thread, whether it's proof or not or whether flash detonates, or even us
all putting our differences aside, embracing each other and spening the rest of our lives living in a remote commune where we
all make clothes from hemp and sing songs from the 60's :)
Having a conclusive answer would a) put this recurring argument here to rest b) prove to others what the resources of
theforum's members can achieve. What do they think about flash at explosives newsgroups? They tend to have some pretty
well informed people, my bet is that they argue inconclusively too...
If we are actually going to do this, what are we going to define as "flash"? There's lots of types and some are obviously far
superior to others, it's possible that some can under certain circumstances make the DTD transition whilst other, probbaly
slower mixes couldn't.
I don't see a problem with people disagreeing, or arguing their point or opinion, the only thing not permitted is flaming/insults
at that point things have degraded and people do not respect each other and nothing good will come of the thread.
Chris, why don't you explain *why* you so strongly believe that flash detonates? You say you've seen it, it would be helpful if
you would divulge. People here will not accept blind faith, it's just who everyone is - the kind of people who demand the facts
or proof before believing.

"If you can waste at least an hour arguing whether or not flash detonates - then maybe you're a pyro..."
A poignant quote a I feel :) Also, Pamela Anderson??? Keep the skanky whore!
Personally, I'd like some kind of result to come of this thread, whether it's proof or not or whether flash detonates, or even us
all putting our differences aside, embracing each other and spening the rest of our lives living in a remote commune where we
all make clothes from hemp and sing songs from the 60's :)
Having a conclusive answer would a) put this recurring argument here to rest b) prove to others what the resources of
theforum's members can achieve. What do they think about flash at explosives newsgroups? They tend to have some pretty
well informed people, my bet is that they argue inconclusively too...
If we are actually going to do this, what are we going to define as "flash"? There's lots of types and some are obviously far
superior to others, it's possible that some can under certain circumstances make the DTD transition whilst other, probbaly
slower mixes couldn't.
I don't see a problem with people disagreeing, or arguing their point or opinion, the only thing not permitted is flaming/insults
at that point things have degraded and people do not respect each other and nothing good will come of the thread.
Chris, why don't you explain *why* you so strongly believe that flash detonates? You say you've seen it, it would be helpful if
you would divulge. People here will not accept blind faith, it's just who everyone is - the kind of people who demand the facts
or proof before believing.
xoo1246 May 23rd, 2002, 04:13 PM

We got it the first time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Well, why don't we make the tests(fragentation, ANFO ,metal plate dent, etc.), to see if we can get any wiser.
I wish I could, BUT I don't have access to a ball-mill/KClO3(only permanganate) yet.
Another thing, doesn't commercial flashpowder contain perchlorate, not chlorate.
Argh, my small brain can't handle this delicate problem.
[ May 23, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
DBSP May 23rd, 2002, 04:31 PM

I've got the mill :) <img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/ballmill.jpg" alt="" />
xoo1246 May 23rd, 2002, 04:39 PM

Hmm, Isn't that a stone tumbler "Lortone 33A"?
I bet it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
DBSP May 23rd, 2002, 04:46 PM

It's a lortune allright, actually works quite well.
Got this Al by milling for 5 days

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/milled_Al.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/
E&W/milled_Al.jpg</a>
[ May 23, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: DBSP ]
xoo1246 May 23rd, 2002, 05:04 PM

You should see my 25um coated Al flakes, really low density.
Did you use any oil or something when you milled the Al? What milling media are you using?
Oups, this threat is starting to look like a ball milling thread, sorry.
Back to topic.
[ May 23, 2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
Chris Shiherlis May 23rd, 2002, 07:04 PM

Anthony: you're right I don't agree with your proposal. Getting BP to slam a kind of hammer onto a H.E. is a very nice idea but
not that's not what I ment. By the way do you realise you called the girlfriend of MrCool a whore?
MrCool: I will not touch Pamela with one finger (as long as she touches me I'm satisfied :) ).
By the way, the dent test is controversial I know. But supersonic deflagration. Does that exist? And subsonic detonation? I
thought that if the speed of reaction is supersonic it's not only by definition a detonation but the proces is also no longer
propagation by heat but by shock. But I see what you're doing. Just by calling the detonation of flashpowder a "supersonic
deflagration with the same effect as a detonation" (nice try) you think you don't have to come up with your end of the deal,
that is sending your girlfriend. Well, don't think so.
And thanks to Topfholzer and Xoo for backing me up. I'll give Pam your phonenumbers when I'm done.
And most of all, thanks to Demolition, the only one getting out there actually performing the test, for the wrong reasons but
anyway. And it will be Demolition I'll have to thank that Pamela is gonna make it up to me (say Demolition, does it really take
a week?! I'm getting a bit nervous already (Btw, sorry that it will waste your perfectly good AN/NM.).
Demolition May 23rd, 2002, 10:46 PM

Why dont you suggest what the ANNM/Al test using BP as the intiator will prove Chris.Are you saying that if it successfully
detonates ANNM/Al it means that blackpowder detonates :rolleyes: or that if it doesnt it proves that flashpowder does.
:rolleyes:
You cant say that it does or it doesnt from this test,as stated already above it just shows wether ANNM/Al can be detonated
using blackpowder,the same as in the other thread,it just showed that ANNM/Al can be detonated using flashpowder,thats all.It
doesnt show any evidence of flash detonating.
Why doesnt someone with some spare NG or MHN lying around detonate it using blackpowder in a copper pipe just to show
Chris that HE's dont always necessary need a detonating explosive to detonate them.
I suggest to read over Mr Cool's post and see why secondary HE's detonate.
[ May 23, 2002, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Demolition ]

There is almost two definitions of detonation that coincide. One being any explosion that explodes faster than the speed of
sound. And the other being an explosion propagated be a shock front.
You can make combos out of these definitions.

-slower than the speed of sound, propagated by flame front(BP)
-slower than the speed of sound, propagated by shock front(doesn't exist(
-faster than the speed of sound, propagated by flame front(flash sometimes or all)
-faster than the speed of sound, propagated by shock front(general acceptance of HE's, TNT, RDX, PETN....Maybe flash)

There is another, more solid characteristic that distinguishes detonating explosives from deflagrating ones, and that is is
direction the reaction products are travelling. In a deflagration, the reaction products are being ejected backwards ( when the
propagation of the reaction front is considered forward ), but in a detonating explosive a considerable amount of the products
is travelling forwards. Because LEs eject their products to the rear ( and do not propagate by shock ), no radial cutting effect
will be produced if an LE charge is ignited from both ends at the same time.
Therefore, my suggested test will discriminate positively if the witness plate is strong enough not to be penetrated by the
explosion, but not so strong as to make identification of the radial effect too difficult.

I can see that even after numerous tests, this topic will still remain fiercely debated. If someone has a *really* fast camera,
maybe we could take photos to see if its burning or detonating :) but that wont happen.
So, there are a lot of tests we can do, but there will still be debates. I have no experience with flash, so im not a very
authoritarian figure on this. One thing we have to do though is define flash. It can be anything, KClO3+Al, KClO4+Mg+S,
theres hundreds of flash mixes. Not just mixtures, but proportions etc. KClO3+Al seems to be the most likely to be a HE
because of the semi-he chlorate. But then other mixes mightnt detonate. We have to define flash first, what mixture and what
proportion.
Personally i think that flash just deflagrates extremely fast, and the sudden expansion of particles and gases makes it very
powerful. Flash is probably the most powerful LE.
I saw in another post a member who said that he made large BP explosives (kind of like massive salutes) that made a
shockwave you could see as a blur extending out from the charge. I dont know exactly how he made them, but its possible
the "blur" was just tiny pieces of shrapnel or paper that appeared to make a blur. Or it may have actually been a shockwave.
If BP can make a shockwave, flash definately can. There may be more involved with LE's than "meets the eye", eg more than
just a very fast burning and expanding powder.
Mr Cool May 24th, 2002, 06:49 AM

Chris: I'm pretty sure supersonic deflagration can exist in a porous LE - the hot gases can be expanding faster than the speed
of sound (in air), and igniting the explosive that they contact due to the fact that they're hot, not because of the kinetic
energy or whatever that they posses.
And I suppose that in a HE of low enough density a shock wave could, in theory, travel slower than the speed of sound in air,
therefore you could have a subsonic detonation.
I know that one definition of detonation is when the reaction is propagated faster than the speed of sound; if we use this one,
then flash definitely detonates. But I'm not convinced that it's propagated by shock in a (small) charge of flash that's
detonated by flame. I see no reason to assume that the process changes once the speed of propagation exceeds 340 m/s or
whatever the speed of sound is, since that number is in no way related to the explosive or the reaction products or anything
else.
Well I personally don't care at all if flash detonates or not, so I will now leave the decades of arguing to you guys...
Anthony: OK, so Pamella wouldn't be my first choice, or even my second or third, but can you honestly say that if she asked,
you wouldn't? Any hole's a goal!

Good point mr cool, about the speed of sound and the speed of deflagrating flash. It may burn so fast that by some
definitions, it detonates. It also depends on the mix. A fast burning flash ignited by flame will send out hot gases very fast,
igniting the flash next to it, at such a rate (possibly supersonic) that it almost seems to be detonating. If it going supersonic,
some kind of sonic boom could be created by the particles, and this would add to the bang of a bursting salute, if it
happened.
Flash burning at 1200km/h is burning at about 1/4 the detonation velocity of anfo, which wouldnt give it 1/4 the power but
would still have a lot of power, in the thermal shock, sudden expansion etc, that it creates.

Look guys, you can say anything you want. You can call a detonation a deflagration at supersonic speed but it's the same as
saying "no MrCool, your girlfriend (well, ex girlfriend by the end of the week :) ) Pamela Anderson didn't give me a blowjob, it
was just oral sex and yes it did have the same enjoyable effect but that doesn't prove a thing".
Now, seriously. There is no such thing as a supersonic deflagration. That is BY DEFINITION a detonation.
Once again:
1. Under normal conditions and generally speaking secondary explosives need a shockwave from a detonation primary
explosive to detonate. So Wantsomfet already proved flashpowder detonated.
And yes under certain specific conditions H.E. can be detonated by other means (by flame, heat, deflagration), I know, and I
even gave an example of it, but those conditions differ dramatically from the
normal.
2. So the test is only to make clear that deflagrating explosives CAN'T set off secondary explosives like AN/NM (under normal
conditions) like you seem to believe.
So do the test, and do the other tests and then this discussion IS over. Only fools who can't face the facts will keep going on
and on. But they always do. Besides I'm waitng for that blowjob.

And to avoid misunderstanding and confusion go to <a href="http://www.galcit.caltech.eduedu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html"
target="_blank">http://www.galcit.caltech.eduedu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html</a> for the definitions. Maybe there are better
sites but this one was the first I found and I think these more or less scientific definitions get rid of some misunderstandings.

Sorry small mistake (and I am unable to edit my posts) so again: please :) go to: <a href="http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/
~jeshep/html/Glossary.html" target="_blank">http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~jeshep/html/Glossary.html</a>
By the way, I also wasn't quite sure anymore about the exact definitions.

The first few pages of the complete book of flashpowder state that an amount of 2 oz. (how many gr is that?) can detonate
when ignited.
There is a composition with ammoniumnitrate in the book, so maybe it can't be considered as straight flash, however I doubt
that an AN flash would make DDT.
Chris Shiherlis May 24th, 2002, 06:05 PM

Should be 200 gram. I suppose they mean that a pile of 2 oz. of unconfined flashpowder will detonate when ignited. At least
that's what I expect since 1 gram flashpowder confined in a paper tube already undergoes the DDT when ignited. And small
amounts of flashpowder unconfined deflagrate very quickly (in one flash) so with bigger amounts the pressure is apparently
built up to the point where deflagration turns into detonation.
Thank you Vulture for this information, I'll give you the phonenumber of Pamela in about two-three weeks :) .

Helvetica"> A good quality flash has a critical mass of approximately 2 ozs., which means it would detonate in open air,
uncontained, when ignited . A smaller amount will burn violently, but with no report or concussion wave. It takes approximately
500 lbs. of blackpowder to form an open air critical mass explosion. <hr /></blockquote>Taken from the complete book of flashpowder, page 32.
EDIT: I'd rather like J.Lo than Pam if you don't mind....

OK thanks, I'll see what I can do for you.
Some other sites:
<a href="http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/General/general.htm"
target="_blank">www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Recognition/General/general.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Theory/Definitions/definitions-1.htm"
target="_blank">www.fireandsafety.eku.edu/VFRE-99/Theory/Definitions/definitions-1.htm</a>
<a href="http://machine.chem.ohiou.edu/~mccord/week2-3.pdf" target="_blank">http://machine.chem.ohiou.edu/~mccord/

week2-3.pdf</a>
Good sites, although they classify flashpowder as a low explosive :) . Well it is under specific circumstances: unconfined and
below 2 ozs :) . But they also classify smokeless powder as a L.E. which as we all know can detonate just as well. So don't let
this fool you. Convince yourself by doing the test.
[ May 25, 2002, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]

Helvetica"> A good quality flash has a critical mass of approximately 2 ozs., which means it would detonate in open air,
uncontained, when ignited . A smaller amount will burn violently, but with no report or concussion wave. It takes approximately
500 lbs. of blackpowder to form an open air critical mass explosion. <hr /></blockquote>This isn't right, by this guy's reckoning, 500lbs of blackpowder will detonate unconfined???
Also, Smokeless powder will not make DDT under anything like normal circumstances, if it can at all.
2oz is about 57gm I'll make up 60gm of KMnO4 flash sometime next week and ignite it unconfined.
OT: I think I'd rather have the satisfaction of turning her down, I never have liked her. "Any hole's a goal!" - spooky, that was
our gruff, homosexual PE teacher's motto (he got suspended one time for touching up a kid)
[ May 25, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
I'm certain that some kinds of flash can detonate (chlorate mixes), but if you really want to know for sure, why not try to
detonate flash with, lets say, a detonator ...
Then you instantly know if it is cabable of detonation or not. But I really don't think that KMnO4 flash is able to detonate.
And about the choice of women in this thread, please guys, I thought the amount of good taste was a bit higher in this place !!
Demolition May 25th, 2002, 11:55 AM

60 grams of KMnO4 flash is going to be one huge flash and/or boom. :D
<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/retro/mafsexplosives/Flash1.gif" alt="" />

Thats about 8 grams IIRC lit unconfined.No boom,just an extremely loud 'WHOOSH'. :p
[ May 25, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Demolition ]
inferno May 25th, 2002, 12:04 PM

(Before i say anything, 2oz is approx 56 grams, 1oz = about ~28 grams)
I was posting a post before that i ended up losing when my $#^#@^ computer froze, but basically i was saying that some
flash mixes could detonate (chlorate based ones). Anyway, i agree with brainfever on two points - someone try and det flash
(if you have the chems, try a chlorate based, and a permanganate based flash) with a detonator. No rules on the size of the
det, make a 50g hmtd det if you want.
The flash could detonate like a secondary HE, or ignite as if hit with a hammer blow. If flash detonated, i dont think thered be
any flash. I might be wrong that there will be no flash, but the flash is the extremely rapid burning of the metal (Mg or Al). If
it detonated, the metal wouldnt be burning (would it??).
Apparently armstrongs mix can be detonated. I have no arguments against this low explosive being detonated, but the
shockwave from the detonator is like a hammerblow to the armstrongs, and armstrongs is pretty damn sensitive to shock and
friction. The metal pieces from the det are the same as a small hammer hitting the mix too. If there was no metal involved,
the mix is also very heat sensitive. The heat from the detonator ingredients would also set it off. I think flash is the same as
armstrongs in that respect.
Chlorate flashes would be like Al sensitized AN, chlorates (at least some) are HE's and if Al can sensitize AN, it could sensitize
chlorates in the same way. (But then, armstrongs is also chlorate based...)
So i think some flashes could be detonated, but not all.
The other point i agree with brainfever on is the women! Please guys, theres better women than Pamela! *waits for AP putty
salutes to be thrown his way*
PS Demolition, how far away is that photo taken from?
Demolition May 25th, 2002, 12:26 PM

It was a still taken from a video ive got with various experiments on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
It was about 10 meters away.
LOL,just thinking back to that video....
[Friend 1] fuck
[Friend 2] ah fuck my eyes
[Friend 3] did you see that fucking flash
[myself with video camera in hand] I think I got it :) (while im seeing white spots in my vision looking into pitch black)

Shit, thats some expansion! if 8g of flash can expand that much, it must be powerful!
And anyone who wants to see the pic and doesnt know how, (with IE at least) right click on the angelfire pic, go to "properties"
then highlight the link and right click again and go to copy. Open a new window and paste it.
And demo, i saw ur from aus, whered you get the Al? I cant find it any bloody where
xoo1246 May 25th, 2002, 12:50 PM

There would be flash, the metal is ideed burning. But I don't think the flash would be visible at day.

I think KMnO4 flash is going to detonate far better than KClO3 flash because it's a much more powerful oxidizer! It also burns
much faster than KClO3 flash.
About the choice of women, do you consider <a href="http://www.jenniferlopez.com" target="_blank">J.Lo</a> as a bad one?
[ May 25, 2002, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
nbk2000 May 26th, 2002, 04:43 AM
BP used to be used in detonators for Nitroglycerin back before the discovery of mercury fulminate as a detonator. So BP can
initiate a HE. But that doesn't prove shit since no amount of BP is going to set off ANFO or CL-20.
Whereas, flashpowder salutes I've made (KCLO3/S/Al wrapped in newspaper casings) have broken concrete paving stones that
I set them off on. This doesn't prove that flash detonates, but it sure the hell isn't weak!
So I think it's all relative. Does flash detonate or burn? Who really cares? If it sets off another explosive, then I say it
detonated. If it doesn't, then it just deflagerated.
Chris, while you do make some interesting points, and are rather humorous, you're also rather disruptive. Keep your
tendencies for sarcasm in check or face the Wrath of NBK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
PS: I've always been partial to Jennifer Tilley myself (watch "Bound". Rwwwaarr!). But J-Lo will do in a pinch. Of course, I'd
have to kill her afterwards since she is a mud, no matter how pretty she is. :p

Me sarcastic? :)
Well, finally the opinions are changing and some tend to believe that flashpowder might detonate. I'm almost happy.
To convince you even more: yes, flashpowder can also be detonated by a detonator. There is even a way to make a plastic
explosive that can be used unconfined from flashpowder and motoroil, and that is initiated by a detonator.
And it will surely flash or do you think the alumminium powder comes out unharmed by the reaction?
But there might be some differences between certain flashpowders. The ones I was talking about consist of chlorates with
aluminium. I don't know if the permanganate flashpowder will act the same. Besides Wantsomfet was using the chlorate type.
And like NBK said, if it (flashpowder) can detonate high explosives it probably detonates. Well Wantsomfet just proved that.
And 'The Test' will show that deflagrating explosives are not able to detonate secondary high explosives (under normal
conditions).
And that blackpowder used to detonate nitroglycerine does indeed prove nothing, since (liquid) nitroglycerine I wouldn't classify
as a secondary, insensitive high explosive. I would rather call it a primary or else a very sensitive and dangerous H.E. (I for
one won't go near it).
And the example NBK gives of flashpowder salutes breaking stones is proving it detonates. In fact you describe basicly the
dent test. Deflagrating explosives don't dent a metal plate (only maybe pierce/dent it with fragments, but that's easy to
recognize).
[ May 26, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]

Well I believe some flashpowders can detonate, the test breaking the stone doesn't prove it detonates. If it can detonate, it
can break the stone while it's unconfined. In NBK's case it was confined.
So if you want to prove flash detonates, place flash unconfined in a strong metal object which has an opening bigger than
3cm. Put a primary with a fuse in it, making sure the fuse can not throw any burning particles in the flash. An even better test
would be using a container that almost can't be ruptured and put some larger stones in it. If they are reduced to sand after
the test, it detonates. However, don't use 5gr of Ap and 5gr of flash, that will of course shatter the stone! Always use an
acceptable ratio primary/flash. something like 1:20.
Now Chris, while I've got nothing against it that you bring this question up, but I suggest you start testing and gathering
evidence (video, pictures, other forum member). This will chance people's attitude towards you considerably.

Chris: The test you proposed does not provide definite proof, and neither do the others contemplated here. The one I
suggested and which noone has commented on does, so I suggest that you use this for laying this to rest. I'd do it myself,
but I have access to neither sufficiently fine metal powder nor high grade chlorate.
mongo blongo May 26th, 2002, 01:37 PM

I'm not quite sure if it detonates or not. If it does though why is there no information floating about of it's VOD?

Vulture - if it detonated, the oxidising properties of the oxidiser wouldn't matter because it doesn't need oxygen to detonate.
Microtek, i dont quite get youre experiment, i understand the direction stuff but not what you want to actually test?
As flash is not a chemical composition, but rather a mix of a pure metal powder and an oxidiser, the oxidiser must be the HE
if it detonates. Chlorates are HE's, so chlorates flashes could detonate, KNO3 can be detonated to some extent, what about
permanganate/perchlorates? If permanganates arent HEs then permanganate flash wont detonate.
Therefore, some flash mixes would be detonatable (chlorates and nitrates, maybe perchlorates and permanganates) while
others would not be. I think deflagrating flash is just incredibly powerful, in the way it expands, heat, etc. It may deflagrate so
fast it does send out a shockwave of somekind.
As for blowing up rocks, that could be done with any LE, the sudden expansion will split the rock. Anyway the point is some
flash mixes could be detonated, some couldnt be.

Allright, I'll describe my suggestion in a little more detail:
- Take a piece of hose about 40-50 cm in length with an internal diameter large enough to accomodate the supposed critical
diameter of flash ( say 10 mm ).
- Fill this hose completely with flash. Compression is optional.
- Bend the ends of the hose together, forming a circle, and place a means of ignition inside the hose where the two ends
meet. It can be electrical or fuse ignition.
- Tape the ends of the hose together securely.
- Place the charge on a metal plate that is strong enough to resist the explosion, but soft enough that a dent will be produced
where the hose is in contact with the plate.
- Ignite the charge.
The following will happen:
- Ignition occurs at the place where the two ends meet.
- The flash starts to deflagrate in both directions through the hose.
- If the flash is capable of DDT, the deflagration will at some point turn into detonation.
- If that is the case, the two detonation wave fronts will travel the rest of the way around the hose and meet at some point. At
this meeting point the radial component will be much greater than at any other point on the circle, thus the dent in the metal
will be much deeper.
- If the flash is not capable of going from deflagration to detonation, there will be no detonation waves, only burn zones.
These reaction zones will also travel around the rest of the circle, but when they meet, no radial amplification will take place so
the dent in the metal will be the same as the other points around the surface.
It's basically the same test that is used for determining relative detonation velocities, only configured to give a yes/no answer
to the question of detonation.

The test will prove (to you) that deflagrating explosives are NOT able to set off secondary high explosives.
Wantsomfet proved flashpowder does set off AN/NM, a secondary high explosive. And since that class of explosives is
insensitive to shock, friction, heat and deflagrating explosives and needs a strong shock like from a primary explosive to
detonate (under the normal conditions), Wantsomfet proved the flashpowder detonated. Simple. But I've said it a hundred
times by now.
Even NBK is with me on this.
[ May 27, 2002, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
Mr Cool May 27th, 2002, 01:08 PM

I know I said I'd stay out of this, but Chris' flawed logic is beginning to piss me off. I wish being an arsehole was against
Forum rules, so we could ban him...
"deflagrating explosives are NOT able to set off secondary high explosives."
Several examples have been given where LE's do set off SHE's, such as PETN and NG.
"And since that class of explosives is insensitive to shock, friction, heat and deflagrating explosives"
We could just as easily say that Wantsomfet has proved that class of explosives IS sensitive to deflagrating explosives, since
you have not given us any evidence that only a detonation can set off a SHE, therefore neither have you given us any
evidence that flash powder detonates.
"a secondary high explosive. And since that class of explosives is insensitive to shock, friction, heat"
There is no clear point at which a HE stops being a PHE and starts being a SHE. Therefore, all HE's are sensitive to shock,
friction and heat, just as PHE's are, but SHE's are simply less sensitive. They can still be set off by the same stimuli, if the
stimulus is sufficiently energetic.
I agree with you that flash can detonate, I'm even perfectly willing to accept that the stuff used to detonate the ANNM DID
detonate, but your arguments are WRONG.

Detonation is where an explosive is detonated by a shockwave travelling through the explosive. Deflagration is where an
explosive explodes because of a flame front travelling at high speeds. I think the situation with flash powder is the same as
with nitrocellulose. If ignited by a fuse, it will deflagrate. If set off by a shockwave (detonator-initiated) then it will detonate. If
you set off a little pile of flash powder by whacking it with a hammer, it will detonate. If you set off a little pile of flash powder
with a fuse, it will deflagrate.

Helvetica">Now, seriously. There is no such thing as a supersonic deflagration. That is BY DEFINITION a detonation.<hr
/></blockquote>This would mean that a deflagration at sea level could be a
detonation on a mountain. That definition is awful, and is subjected to varying environmental factors. I highly recommend
using the shockwave/flame-front definition.
That defition is BS, because most flashpowders which when ignited and show no effect of detonation, easily reach 1000m/s,
whereas the speed of sound generally is around 340m/s.

i'd like to also point out that that definition is bullshit, and so are all definitions in general. you can't define something which
still contains uncertainties. detonation is the phenomenon of solid turning to mass almost instantly. the burning of flash may
appear to be almost instant. but as i have allready said i think the real explination as to why the ANNM detonated from the
flash was that the very high temperature produced by flash expands the air to such an extent that in effect a shockwave is
formed. the mixture itself does not have a shockwave travelling though it, only a flame front. take for example that
experimental laser powered rocket. a laser is shot into its underside where air is heated to such a high temperature it
'explodes'. this often results in the rocket shattering to bits. now is air a detonating explosive?
no.
if the flash however heated the air to such a temperature that it did 'explode' this sudden expansion and shockwave formed
from the pressure difference would set off an HE. the flash heats the local air (air inbetween the particles of powder) to a great
extent. high temperature air = expansion. if the air is heated incredibly fast such as in the rapid combustion of flash it will
expand incredibly fast also = shockwave.
i've tried to stay out of this but i'm sick of chris's bullshit arguments which are full of flaws. yes flash does detonate but not
when set off with a fuse as i and many others have said. smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) when ignited NEVER makes the
deflagration to detonation transition otherwise there would be many people with pieces of gun barrel inside them. if however
set off with a primary i beleive it detonates at around 6000m/s. as i've also said before, fuel/energetic oxidiser make a
detonable mix, such as potassium chlorate and vaseline why should it be any different for aluminium and potassium chlorate?
Al being a much more sensitive fuel would mean it would make a much more sensitive explosive as KClO3 and vaseline can
be a bitch to detonate.
now chris, get some sort of evidence or atleast, as i have done, give credible reasons as to why you beleive what you do.
PYRO500 May 27th, 2002, 07:40 PM

I will try to clear things up here. Firstly webster's dictionary (world renoun for being standard) describes detonation as
An explosion or sudden report made by the instantaneous decomposition or combustion of unstable substances' as, the
detonation of gun cotton. Now we all know that an explosive substance cannot instantaneously decompose, now the part that
confuses me is the combustion part the standard def. for deflagration is To burn or cause to burn with great heat and intense
light, flash powder burns with great heat and great light as does BP but something say TCAP may not, I assume when you
burn TCAP the energy is great enough to break the bonds of the molecuele causing energy and a sustaining reaction, with
flash and BP they just burn so maybee it is easyer to look at the situation as "Is it a low explosive?" than "is it a high
explosive" or "does it detonate" I think some things like NC fall in the catagory of both, LE and HE so it may be a HE but it
doesn't mean it has to detonate, in witch case you would have to make a judgement call and call it a high or low explosive
determining on it's application.
10fingers May 28th, 2002, 12:29 AM

Theres been several interesting tests proposed to settle this question once and for all but I think some of you guys are too
busy jerking off thinking about Pamela Anderson to do the tests.
I agree she's definitely fuckable but we should not let her stand in the way of scientific pursuit.
nbk2000 May 28th, 2002, 02:15 AM

Obviously, there's nothing being gained by this arguing since no one here has the equipment to prove for sure, one way or the
other, if flashpowder (of unspecified composition) is capable of high order detonation.
Also, chris, don't presume that I'm agreeing with you about anything. I never said anything like that. I just stated some
effects that I've observed first hand.
About the flash salutes shattering concrete stepping stones, that could be simply due to the confinment of the casing, similar
to a pipe bomb (sans fragments).
Someone with a large quantity of flash should stick it in a plastic bag (no confinement or frags to confuse results), and shock
it with a boosted detonator. If it shatters concrete, or bends steel, than I'd call it a detonation.
So until someone is ready to post pictures of said test results, this topic is closed.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Am m onipulver
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View Full Version : Ammonipulver
A-BOMB May 23rd, 2002, 05:52 PM

I m a d e s o m e A m m onipulver with the Makshift Arsenal method of 4 parts AN to 1 part charcoal. W ell it doesn't burn so I've was
h o p i n g t h a t s o m e o n e here m ay have a better form ula for it? And by the way does any one know when the PFP is go ing to be
back up again?
kingspaz May 23rd, 2002, 06:13 PM

the form u l a b y m a s s i s :
80% NH4NO 3
20% Charcoal
it doesn't burn particualarly fast but it burns almost sm o k e l e s s a n d q u i t e hot. although the stuff i m ade was very bad quality.
A-BOMB May 23rd, 2002, 06:22 PM

King spaz, by m ass you m ean weight. And my batch that I made when I when to light it it would just melt :confused: and
sputter out a flam e every once and a while and even then I would have to hold the m atch to it constantly.

I rem e m b e r s o m eone saying this comp. doesn't burn well under normal atmospheric cond itions. Maybe the AN isn't dry as well.
M a k e a s a l u t e o u t o f s o m e and a stong container, that would raise the pressure dram aticly, and up the burn rate of the
remaining powder.

As long as you're both on the surface of the sam e planet, mass and weight are interchangeable. :D

Ive heard of ppl having all sorts of pro blem s with AN+newspaper sm o k e b o m bs. Either it does jack shit, or the newspaper
burns and not the an, all sorts of stuff.
Maybe if u powdered the ingredients a lot, then m ixed it in water, and confined it in a strong tube, and add e d a s m a l l a m o u n t
of another oxidiser, KNO3 or something. I didnt think NH4NO 3 oxidised well? And i have a lot of trouble trying to get C to light.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Triangle salutes
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View Full Version : Triangle salutes
YTS September 20th, 2001, 05:23 PM

I just wanted to know how to make triangle salutes i read how to do it once but ive done a search on the forum but nothing come up cheers

Cut a strip of paper about a foot long and 1" - 1.5" wide. Fold over the corner at one end to touch the other side so the end of the strip has a 45 degree angle. Fold the angled
part up so the end of the strip is now flat and there's a triangle against the paper strip. Fold this triangle over again to put a point back on the end of the strip. You now have a
triangular pouch. Either force a fuse through the corner, or just stick out in the top of the pouch (will be held in place when you continue folding). Fill the pouch 1/2 to 3/4 with
explosive.
Now coninue folding the triangle upwards until you run out of paper, stick the free end down with a bit of tape and you're done.
My discription is crap, but it's really easy once you've done it once.
------------------
"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"

I've made these on several occasions, wasted a lot of my high quality BP too! I've found that the powder tends to all fall out of the small holes at the corners of the triangle.
No matter how perfectly you try to fold it, these holes are always there, and are quite a frustration! And getting the powder in them without spilling it everywhere needs a
steady hand and (preferably) a funnel.
Thus, due to my frustrations, I have declared these fireworks too much effort for too small a bang. Of course if worst comes to worst and there's a worldwide shortage of
cardboard tubes... http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif

Their little darlings when their filled with ap. Ones filled with blackpowder tend to rocket in my experience.

I'll admit that I stick a little bit of tape over the corners to keep anything from falling out. I've got some reasonable bangs using BP.
I don't see how filling them is difficult, you're just filling a pouch, I use a small spatula or a knife blade.
The great thing about these is you can make them in two minutes with no need to let anything dry/set.
------------------
"Shit happens. Get a fucking helmet"
mark September 21st, 2001, 12:57 AM

Their suprisingly powerfull(atleast with ap.) I taped on onto an empty coke can, and it blew a hole threw both sides. I also got one to shoot a good 50 feet with bp. It was
hilarious.
CodeMason September 21st, 2001, 04:53 AM

By making a shape roughly like this:
 //
 //
 /\
 / \
 / \
/ /\ \
/ / \ \
 
And filling with AP, you would have yourself a rather nice mini shaped charge. I can imagine making it via two paper cones, the smaller one with a sharper angle than the
larger, fitting them together and wrapping with a very large amount of tape. This "shaped charge" firecracker would be more effective than a plain matchbox full of the stuff
for detonating secondaries, am I right? Any other possible designs?
Agent Blak September 21st, 2001, 10:41 AM

I made some of these when i was younger but haven't made them in years. I first go the Idea from a book Called "The FireCracker CookBook" by Idwin Lou. I also put tape
on the edges.
------------------
PYREX September 21st, 2001, 01:08 PM

About the cone-shaped detonator: Are you shure that this would give a better performance than just simply a "normal" shaped det? I'd say that the primary charge should be
as near to the secondary as possible to transmit its shockwave with the least loss. In a shaped charge the main part of the primary explosive is quite far away from it. Also the
shockwave is concentrated to a small area so I think it would rather punch a hole through the secondary than reliably detonate it.
Just my thougths; correct me if I'm wrong
CodeMason September 21st, 2001, 08:09 PM

PYREX, but that's the point, the blast is concentrated in one area, instead of evenly distributing it through the secondary. You forget that an explosive is not a large scale
substance, an emergent property of its constituents, each individual molecule of HE acts as an explosive in its own right. And once we have some of the secondary to detonate,
the rest will follow.
green beret September 22nd, 2001, 12:13 AM

Agent Blak, do you still have a copy of the firecracker cookbook?
Agent Blak September 22nd, 2001, 12:53 AM
Yes...
what can you offer as a trade.
------------------
Mr Cool September 22nd, 2001, 07:16 AM

I think it would be better to have the information freely available, because newer people will probably have little to offer you, but they might be very interested in the book...
If you have a Yahoo briefcase or something, do you think you could put it there so we can see it?
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited September 23, 2001).]
Agent Blak September 24th, 2001, 02:40 AM

follow the below listed link. then go to the new folder and grab the pages. It is the whole FCCB. just because I was in a good mood.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak/lst?.dir=/Bookz&.order=&.view=l&.src=bc&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak/lst%3f.dir=/
Bookz%26.src=bc%26.view=l
------------------
ALENGOSVIG1 September 24th, 2001, 03:40 AM

I used to make these. but i found it was better to just make a cavity in a piece of newspaper, fill with powder, insert fuse, and crumple into a ball and then put alot of
electricial tape wrapped tight around it. you can easily make perfectly round balls with practaice.look just like black chearry bombs. big ones :-)
good book though
------------------
How much power will you lose if you do not know what they already know?
Explosives Archive (http://surf.to/alexplo)
SATANIC September 24th, 2001, 10:14 AM

i made them a couple of times, and had one explode on the desk, filled with AP. now i stick to hard containers, i think it was the pressure i applied while taping it up. (it
exploded a couple of seconds after i put it down.) no damage though, so i was lucky. i also put tape over the corners.
PYREX September 24th, 2001, 03:11 PM

I have just made some of those fuckers and they went just fine. I made some with fine flash and some with coarse bp. There was no difference in power (loudness) though.
With none of them did I have any problems of powder falling out at the corners (just roll them tight). Also the bigger ones arent louder than the small ones. One made with a
3x30cm strip and 0.5g was just as loud as the one from a 6x30cm strip and 1.5g. Probably to achieve a better performance the length should be increased in proportion to the
width. So a 6x60cm one would go quite banghttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Donutty September 25th, 2001, 05:52 PM

http://donuttyfiles.50megs.com/vids/
File is called 'ppcracker.zip'
A video of a triangular salute
------------------

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > H2O2 BP
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T h e o t h e r d a y I h a d a d r e a m that I m i x e d u p s o m e m e al powder(75% KNO 3,15% C ,10% S) to ma ke fuses in a hurry. I add
boiling water and a little dextrin to make the fuse slurry. Anyway, I had some leftover m eal powder and decided to add a few
drops of 6% H2O2 to it. After this dried out I lit som e with a m atch and it burned extremely fast! It burned more rapidly than
m y finished BP! Has anyone e lse tried this?
<sm all>[ May 25, 2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: krim mie ]
HOOPS123 May 24th, 2002, 11:11 PM

Maybe it had the sam e effect as corning the meal powder.

The hydrogenperoxide produced alot of O2, this is why it burned so fast.... :rolleyes:
I d o n ' t t h i n k t h e m o d s will appreciate this kind of post....

(why do you say that?)
<sm a l l > [ M a y 2 5 , 2 0 0 2 , 1 0 : 5 9 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : P Y R O 5 0 0 ]
PYRO500 May 25th, 2002, 12:05 PM

what I think happened was that the H2O2 was decompo s e d b e a c u s e o f s o m e of the stuff in the po wder that is why it foam ed,
why it burned faster is not easy for me to say, have you tried two identical samples of the BP and added water to one and
H 2 O 2 6% to the other? it is possible that the dextrin m ay have slowed the burning by not giving as much surface area.

-have you tried two identical sam p l e s o f t h e B P a n d a d d e d w a t e r t o o n e a n d H 2 O 2 6 % t o t h e o t h e r ?
Pyro , I am in the process of doing this now. The dextrin was added to the mix for m a k i n g t h e f u s e s only, I didn't put any in
with the mea l powder and H2O2.
Here is a picture of the finished product...it looks and feels like lava rock . It does indeed burn faster than m y hom e m a d e B P ,
but m y hom e m ade BP obviously sucks!
<a href="http://www.boom spe ed.com/krim mie/H2O2-BP.JPG" target="_blank">http://www.boomspeed.com/krim m i e / H 2 O 2 -

BP.JPG</a>
<sm all>[ May 25, 2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: krim mie ]

W hat's the green stuff in your BP ??
As I (and thus everybody)can still see the crystals of (probably) KNO3, this is not even close to good BP !!!
The oxidiser must be finely dispersed between the fuels, so that you get a homogenous mix.
S o m e site's say to even m ake the KNO3 recrystalise in the charchoal by applying pressure to the m ix when drying ....
krimmie May 26th, 2002, 07:29 AM

R e a d o r i g i n a l p o s t a g ain. This is m eal powder with H2O2...I was just com paring the burn rate with m y hom e m a d e B P .

krim mie, this is what i think happened:
1. H2O 2 soaked into charcoal in the BP.
2 . s o m e H2O 2 d e c o m p o s e d r e s u l t i n g i n t h e r e l e a s e o f O 2 .
3. charcoal being porous contained som e o f t h e O 2 f o r m e d .
4. when ignited the O 2 in the charcoal aided com bustion significantly.

T h a n k s k i n g s p a z , t h a t m a k e s s e n s e t o m e ! I t d o e s n ' t r e p l a c e B P b u t i t i s a m arked im provement over m eal powder for sim p l e
fountains and the like. Appreciate the feedback.

I'd be surprised if the sam e increase in perform ance couldn't be obtained by replacing the H2O 2 with H2O. Wetting and drying
BP, often with alcohol is a long used m ethod of increasing performance, which I personally think is caused by recrystalising the
KNO3.

A well docum e n t e d m e t h o d o f m a n u f a c t u r i n g B P s u g g e s t s t h a t t h e b u r n r a t e c a n b e m a s s i v e l y i n c r e a s e d b y m ixing the slurry
described, and then boiling it to dissolve the saltpetre (which is 30 or so tim e s m o r e s o l u b l e a t 1 0 0 C t h a n a t 1 0 d e g r e e s C ,
the boiling point is also elevated to 11 5 degrees, allowing even m o r e t o b e d i s s o l v e d ) .
The mixture is then rem o v e d f r o m t h e h e a t a n d t h e n h a s t h e a l c o h o l d u m ped into it, causing it to boil vigo rously. T he theory
is th at the saltpetre, which was in solution (and permeates the charcoal) rapidly cools, depositing very fine crystals.
I'm curious what your m ixture did when you added the peroxide, m aybe it caused it to cco l and precipitate like this, giving you
a better m i x ? M a y b e a s h a s b e e n s u g g e s t e d , O x y g e n w a s d e p o s i t e d i n i t i n s t e a d , t o m e t h a t s e e m s unlike ly though.

t h e o n l y e x p l i n a t i o n s i c a n s e e a r e t h e u n l i k e l y o n e a b o ve i offered or as a few of you have said. that is the KNO3
recrystalised. i'd like to add that the burnrate is improved by this because the charcoal being porous allows the KNO3 to
crystalise inside it. i think...

The H2O2 would have decom posed in the mix, to either H2+O2 or maybe H2O+O 2 - the H2O would have evaporated off and
left the O 2, which would have been dissolved m aybe in the H2O somehow? then recrystallised in the charcoal, the sam e a s t h e
sulphur, m aking the charcoal pores filled with sulphur and KNO3, as well as the O2 or whatever from t h e p e r o x i d e .
Otherwise som e H 2 O 2 m a y h a v e r e s i d u e d i n t h e c h a r c o a l p o r e s , a d d i n g e v e n m o r e o x y g e n . A n d f i n a l l y , u s i n g a l c o h o l t o m i x
your BP helps a lot m ore than water, m aybe the H2O2 is working like an alcohol, or just helps to m a k e B P

Acco rding to the "CIA method" for BP, you specifically NEED boiling water to dissolve the KNO3, which as folks are de scribing,
premeates the charcoal, along with the sulphur. The alcohol causes rapid cooling of the solution (rather tha n j u s t m a k i n g a m ix
with alcohol as the so lvent), and because KNO 3 cannot remain in solution in concentration at low temperature, it precipitates
where it is - inside the charcoal particles, as very sm all crystals. That's the principle behind good bp - very close association
between the chem s. (Experts also reco m m e n d a c o u p l e o f s e s s i o n s o f b a l l m illing as well - if anyone wants me to post the
actual m ethod, let m e know)
And that's what I think m a y b e h a p p e n i n g , t h e d e c o m position of the H2O2 accele rates precipitation, that's all.
<sm all>[ May 28, 2002, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Arkangel ]</sm all>

How would th e d e c o m position of H2O2 accelerate precipitation knowing that it is a n exotherm ic reaction? And the H2O2 surely
decomposes when it contacts the BP, the KNO3 acts as a catalyst.

W ell I could of course be wron g, it's certainly happened before, but I wasn't considering th e H2O 2 reacting with the KNO3, I
a s s u m e d t h a t t h e h e a t o f t h e s o l u t i o n m a d e i t d e c o m p o s e b y e v a p o r a t i o n, an endothermic reaction.
W h a t y o u s u g g e s t m a k e s s e n s e t h o u g h, so I'll shut up for now.
By the way, the "expert" I was referring to was Tom Perigrin etc, I wasn't inferring that it was me, I'm a bab y in this area. <im g
border="0" title="" alt="[W ink ]" src="wink.gif" /> Having just read his introductory pyro bo ok, I was struck by how im portant it
is to precipitate the KNO 3/S solution in side the charcoal.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > NH3.NI3 with iodine solution...
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Hey
I o b t a i n e d s o m e iodine solution from school today, i ha ve no idea of the concentration, its a yellow colour (kind of like urine ..),
and as the cost of iodine is a bloody lot, is it possible that i could m ake NI3 by m ixing am m o n i a a nd this solution, leaving to
react for a while, then filtering out the precipitate? W ould this wo rk?
Thanks a lot for any answers
xyz May 31st, 20 02, 09:1 3 AM

I a m not sure but I think that those yellow solutions are alcohol with 3% Iodine and would n't work.

W ell i tested a sm all am ount, it wasnt the best amm o n i a ( l a v e n d a r . 5 % a m m o n i a ) i n a 3 5 m m fil canister, there are sm all
black crystals collected on the sides, but very very sm all am ounts...i guess it worked but not well, ill test if the solution is
flam mable later to determ ine if it contains alcohol.
Ok just teste d it, i put a sm all drop on a lid, didnt light from a lighter, so i lit a spent match stick, stuck it in, it fizzled a bit, i
pulled it out and it blows out smoke rings from the m atch, with lots of fizzling and crackling, it didnt seem to burn any weird
colour, i THINK but im not sure that i sure a few purple flam es just under the m atch, not sure what that would be.
xtreme May 31st, 20 02, 01:5 6 PM

Ok....my first post on this webforum...
My experience using straight iodine solution (m ixed with alcohol) with am onia will not work. It turns dark and later colorless.
but.....there is a way to get real iodine crystals from the solution .
You can get real iodine crystals from the solution by sublimation .
Here m y way to get iodine from iodine-solution:
W arm s o m e solution (slowly a nd gently) in a glas.

First the alcohol will vaporize and I light this gasses on (yes it burns)so I can see when the alcohol is totaly vaporized.
W hen the alcohol is vaporized (flame goes away or is very sm all)
y o u c a n s e e p u r p l e " s m o k e " c o m ing. This purple sm o k e i s p u r e
iodine (toxic!) This is the m o m e n t t o p u t a a n o ther (big g e r ) g l a s s
filled with water (and ice) on top of your (small) glas.
Now the purp le sm oke will cooled down on the bottom of the (bigger)
glass and turns back to the solid form as nice gray/silver crystals.
This gray stu ff is pure iodine ! :o )
W h e n n o p u r p l e s m o k e i s f o r m i n g a n y m ore, stop warm i n g a n d t a k e t h e b i g g e r g l a s f r o m the sm all glas.
You can put the gray crystals on the bottom of the big glas in
a m onia (am m onium hydroxide) to form Nitrogen Triiodide.
W h e n a 5 % a m o n i a s o l u t i o n i s u s e d i t t a k e s s o m e t i m e (2 hours).
After 2 hours....let the black Nitrogen Triiodide crystals dry.
W hen the stuff is dry it will explode by friction and fire.
W arning:
W h e n a 2 5 % a m o n i a s o l u t i o n i s u s e d y o u g e t V E R Y s e n sitive and powerfull Nitrogen Triiod ide!! My advice...use a 5% amonia
solution.
Nitrogen Triiodide is realy powerfull....you be warned !
* The with crystals on the bottom of your small glas is sodium i o d i d e ( u s e l e s s h e r e )
mr.evil May 31st, 20 02, 02:3 9 PM

Hello Xtreme ,
i see you are from the Netherlands too! do you have MSN m e s s e n g e r ?
( a n o t h e r d u t c h m e m ber, yeah ! :) ) err, you are n't TVS17, are yo u?
(as he is from Am s t e r d a m t o o )
Polverone May 31st, 20 02, 04:5 7 PM

You can recover m ore elemental iodine from tincture if you first treat it with HCl and H2O2. This will free iodine from the iodide
in the tincture. Then go ahead and sublimate as before. Also, if you have found pure iodine crystals to be too expensive (as I
have), potassium iodide (which is much cheaper and available from photo suppliers as well as chem ical suppliers) can be
treated with HCl/H2O2 to give up its iodine as well. This can be separated by sim ple filtration or su blim ation. Be aware, though,
that the iodine that precipitates out is very light and "fluffy," with high surface are a , a n d s e e m s to sublim e much faster than
chunky lab iodine crystals. But this high surface area iodine m ay actually be better if you just want to make NH3.NI3.
mr.evil May 31st, 20 02, 05:1 3 PM

Hit the search button, and search for 'iodine' you will find about 7good to pics, and 1 special about extract I2 from I o d i n e
tincture.
i extract m y I2 from iodine tin cture too(i can buy crystalls very easily, but it costs per 100gr 9$, i think that's expensive
because i can buy 1L of KI for 3$. what would work better to extract I2 from the tincture; solution in water o r in alcohol?
:con f u s e d :
<sm a l l > [ M a y 3 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 1 5 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : m r.evil ]
Kdogg June 1st, 2002, 12:09 AM

wouldnt it be a mixture, as it can be seperated or do I have m y m i x t u r e s & s o l u t i o n s m i x e d u p .
inferno June 1st, 2002, 07:21 AM

Mr e vil, thats cheap! In Aus 100g is ab out $100+ australian dollars, thats about $50+ am erican.
A ve ry sm all amount of black crystals form ed, however the am m onia was 0.5% so its really weak, it just just a test though
And thanks for the info extreme
And kdogg, its a solution of the solvent (water i assum e ) a n d t h e s o l u t e ( i o d i n e ) .
<sm all>[ June 01, 2002, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]</sm all>
mr.evil June 1st, 2002, 07:39 AM

Hey,
Here in The Netherlands, you can buy lots of chemicals and nobody cares as it com es from agrarical suppliers(HCl/H2O2/KI/
C H 2 O /H2SO4/HNO3/NH4OH etc.) and paintshops..
BUT
in Belgium there ary m any chem ical shops that sell interesting things, ant fucking cheap to!! :cool:
Just extract I2 from tincture, you will get a m uch better yeid than just use the tincture instead of the crystalls
(look at this reaction: 2NaI(aq) + 2HCl + H2O2 -> I2(s) + 2NaCl(aq) + 2 H 2 O )
inferno June 1st, 2002, 10:55 AM

Its not tincture of iodine, its a water(i assume)/iodine solution. Som etimes i wish i lived in t h e n e t h e r l a n d s , s o m a n y c h e m icals
available w/o questions. Im a s s u m ing an agrarical is an agricultural (farming/fertilisers etc) shop?
mr.evil June 1st, 2002, 12:14 PM

well, in holland you can't buy everythin g... i wish i lived in the U .S(we don't even got a Pyrotechnic club or som ething :( ,
m aybe i'll start one!)
But you can buy LO TS of chem icals, in every country; you just have to look at the right place.
Farm s h o p i m e a n , y o u s p e a k e n g l i s h . . i d o n ' t : p
<sm all>[ June 01, 2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</sm all>
kingspaz June 1st, 2002, 06:35 PM

inferno, the solution of iodine will also contain NaI or KI. this allows the iodine to disolve easier as it has a low solubility in
water. therefore it is likely you will get m ore iodine by extracting it from the iodide.

IIR C, one can collect iodine from iodine salts by oxidation with KMnO4 in solution. I guess the solution m ust be a LITTLE bit
acidic.
xtreme June 2nd, 2002, 05:10 PM

Mr.Evil
If you want to contact m e (by e-m ail)...use your mail-account

that is registered by this webforum.
Y o u ( o r s o m ebody else call him self m r.Evil) contact m e f r o m a a nother

m ail address. I m u s t b e s u r e i t ' s y o u a n d n o t a n a g e n t o r s o m e t h i n g .
C a n y o u r e p l y m y m e s s a g e s e n d t o y o ur mailbox (theShadow54@hotm ail.com )and tell m e in this message if you want
to use your other mailbox (with address.
Sorry....I want to be secure. I don't want to make it to easy to

track my location <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
b.t.w. I do not use any chatservice or want to use it.

C o m munication by Forum /e-m ail (for the m o m e n t ) p l e a s e .
Thanks !
Gatyo October 30th , 2 0 0 5 , 0 4 : 0 2 P M

Yes, it really is very u n s a f e i f y o u u s e m ore than 5% am m onia. The crystals get very sensitive and even wind can blow them up
a s s o m e b o d y s a i d b e fore. My advice is if you're novice...just try very sm all am ounts at first. Also wearing a gas m a s k ( o r a n y
other kind of protective tools for you to breath) when you conjure is a very big plus, becau s e t h e s m ell of am o n i a c a n b e
overpowering and not to m ention the fum es after the NI3 explodes. Here's a video when m e and my friend m e s s e d with little
NI3. Click here (http://www.npgpf.com /files/ni3.avi)
As you can see it doe sn't have that m uch of de molition power as noise which is a very big plus if you want an enorm o u s b a n g .
sirthomasthegreat May 7th, 2007, 11:40 PM
My experience using straight iodine solution (m ixed with alcohol) with am onia will not work.
I agree with this. I2 is less reactive that H2 so a single replacm ent will not occur.
I a m quite positive that you could use a reaction kind of like the haber p rocess to create it. You may recall that the haber
process is 2N2 + 3H2 => 2NH3. But instead you probably could replace it with Iodine m aking it 2N2 +
3I2 => 2NI3. The nitrogen and iodine would both be gases, not quite sure what phase the NI3 will
be in. I can double check this soon if need be. Also how would I go about useing subscripts, writing it this way is killing m e.
Grapes Of Wraith May 8th, 2007, 10:49 AM

For subscripts use this code: sub [whatever you wa nt in subscripts] then this code: /sub except you need to op e n
a n d c l o s e t h e m like this < > < >

For subscripts use this code: sub [whatever you wa nt in subscripts] then this code: /sub except you need to op e n
a n d c l o s e t h e m like this < > < >
Thank you very m uch , I am guessing those are HTML tags. Anyways I will edit m y a b o v e p o s t .
h0lx May 15th, 2007, 03:41 AM

The Iodine tincture W ILL make NI3, I have tried it, I will do it again and post pics.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > relatively safe detonators
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View Full Version : relatively safe detonators
andreas May 31st, 20 02, 09:2 5 PM

I've just succesfully tested 3 detonators.
T h e y h a d a b a s e c h a r g e o f m h n a b o u t 1 , 5 g r a m s.
o n t o p o f t h i s I p r e s s e d m a t c h h e a d p o wder with additional m a g n e s i u m p o w d e r . a b o u t 3 0 % m a g n e s i u m .
F o r t h e t h e t u b e I u s e d a m a c h i n e d a l u m inium tube(this because I can't find suiteble tube material), with one open ing.It
detonated everytim e .
T h i s i s t h e n o s t s a f e d e t o n a t o r i have ever m a d e .
Much safer than hmtd or ap det's
If th is a silly post then tell m e I have been drinking so that's wh y
Madog555 May 31st, 20 02, 09:3 6 PM

h m , that sou nds awsom e, maybe flash+PETN will work. that would be nice. i do like m y prim ary though.
Mr Cool June 1st, 2002, 02:22 PM

This belongs in the LE section.
(Although it does sou nd quite good... please be more specific about how the MHN was pressed, what form it was in, and
a p p r o x i m ate density if you can.)
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 0 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 1 : 2 5 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M r C o o l ] < / s m a l l >
andreas June 1st, 2002, 06:16 PM

Sorry but I thought I posted it in the LE section.
it was a 2 gram m h n b a s e c h a r g e p r e s s e d t o 1 , 2 g / m l a n d a s m a l a m o u n t of mhn with a density of 0,8 on top of that.
I m a d e s o m e little Mg swirling s from a solid block with a cheese grater wich are quite easily ground to a finer(but still coarse)
powder.
This I m ixed with matchhead's of a ratio Mg:MH 4:6.
this was pressed on top of the m hn.
Then fuse it and lite the fuse .
I don't know if it fully detonated but only very small Al particals were recovered. The Al bla sing cap was 8m m outer diam eter
0 , 5 m m wall thickness and 60mm l o n g .
O n e f a i l e d a t t e m p t s o f a r I ' l l d o s o m e m ore tests on reliability
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 0 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 2 5 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : a n d r e a s ] < / s m all>
andreas June 2nd, 2002, 07:07 AM

I h a v e r e c o v e r e d t h e f a i l e d d e t . a n d i t s e e m s t h a t t h e m h n d i d n ' t m ake the full d eflagration to detonation transm i s s i o n . T h e
m agnesium m atchhead mix b urned so hot that the sube is wrinkeled and half of the mhn has dissapeared so m aybe one
s h o u l d u s e a other basecharge like tnp with 0,6g/ml m hn on top.
But as I said I do some further testing .
P.S. I think it is discussed before, but is tnp com patible with alum inium
stanfield June 2nd, 2002, 07:45 AM

I think TNP is com patible with NO metal...
I personnaly use DDNP+PETN, they work pretty well, and ofcourse, they are extremely powerful...
I o r d e r e d 1 0 0 g o f s o dium azide so I will soon test Lead Azide in a detonator with PETN.
=> Question about le a d a z i d e m anufacture : could I use a m agnetic stirrer when m ixing the two solutions ? or will I be obliged
to use my arm s ? :)
If you got another info/safety about le a d a z i d e and it's manufacture, let me know plz !
see ya !
(If you want to know about lead azide, please start a new topic. That way we won't end up discussing many different things in
t h e s a m e place. It just m akes life simpler...)
<sm all>[ June 02, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
xoo1246 June 2nd, 2002, 08:27 AM

Helvetica"> If this a silly post then tell me I have been drinking so that's why <hr /></blockquote>Hope you don't drink when you make/use explosives.
Mr Cool June 2nd, 2002, 09:26 AM

Thanks for the extra detail.
O n e m ore thing: was the MHN a fine powder, la rge crystals, small crystals...?
I've got a couple of g ram s of MHN drying out now (low-density grains, formed by dum ping a hot co ncentrated solution of it in
acetone into cold water and stirring it around), so I'll do a few tests of m y own...
andreas June 2nd, 2002, 10:02 AM

No I don't drink when m aking usingexplosives, but the drinking could explain why I posted it in the wrong section.\
My mhn was in a fine powder and hand pressed.
After that I calculated the density.
mongo blongo June 2nd, 2002, 11:36 AM

Can MHN be dead pressed? This could have happened.

I suspect that it is impossible to press it so mu ch that it can't be detonated by primaries, but at high densities it m ight not be
able to detonate in this kind of detonator.
andreas June 2nd, 2002, 08:16 PM

I think the reason that one det. did't go off was because all the others had a little hole driled about halve a centim e t r e d e e p
into the mhn charge, on wich the Mg/m a t c h h e a d m ix was presse d.
The one that didn't have that didn;t detonate.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > C6H3N3O9Pb
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Tony Montana June 24th, 2001, 06:35 AM

Also called: lead styphnate, lead trinitroresorcinate
Explosive type: high-primary
Det. rate: 5200 m/s
Lead block test: 130cc
Form: orange to brown crystals
Deflagration temp: 275c (527f)
Impact sensitivity: moderately high - 5 Nm
Water sensitivity: moderate
Initiate with: spark
Pour 17.5 u.b.w.(units by weight) of w ater into a container, add 6 u.b.w of C6H3N3O8 to the water. Slow ly stir in 1 u.b.w. MgO to the H2O/C6H3N3O8 solution, this will give of
a bit of heat. Gently warm the solution to 60 degrees celcius, then allow to cool to room temperature. Filter the liquid to remove any solids, dilute the solution w ith water until it
has a density of 1.043g per ml. Allow solution to stand for 12 hours, you now have a diluted magnesium styphnate solution.
Place 3.1 u.b.w . of diluted magnesium styphnate solution into a new container, slowly heat solution to 55 degrees celcius, then remove from heat source. Very SLOWLY(one
drop at a time) stir 1 u.b.w. of 34%
Pb(NO3)2 solution into the magnesium styphnate solution, if the temperature approaches 60 degrees celcius then stop adding Pb(NO3)2, but keep stirring until the temperature
drops to at least 55 degrees celcius. Once all of Pb(NO3)2 is added, cool the solution to 25 degrees celcius, stop stirring and allow solution to stand for 20 minutes at 25 degrees
celcius. LS crystals will start to settle to the bottom, gently filter and wash the crystals with 5 u.b.w. of water to w ash away impurities. Dry the crystals and BINGO!
Hope some of you find this interesting, even helpful.
Mr Cool June 24th, 2001, 12:30 PM

Yes, very helpful thanks.
C6H3N3O8... obviously that's styphnic acid, but I'm not sure about the structure. Could one also call it 1,3-dihydroxy-2,4,6-trinitrobenzene? Like picric acid w ith another hydroxyl
group instead of one of the hydrogens? Or am I completely w rong?
a_bab June 24th, 2001, 05:57 PM

I think that a styphnic acid synthesis from resorcine w ill be much more welcome...
________________________
http://move.to/pyromania

TRINITRORESORCINOL
Also called: styphnic acid
Form: yellow pow der
Chem. formula: C6H3N3O8
Specific gravity: 1.82
Toxic effects: Information unavailable. Treat as a toxic material.
[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited June 25, 2001).]

I'd say just use the method for making TNP from phenol, but use an equivalent number of moles of resorcinol instead of phenol.
Tony Montana June 25th, 2001, 09:01 PM

I dont actuallly have that synthesis on hand, but would pretty much say that Mr.Cool is right. A three stage nitration, the first nitration yeilding; mono-nitroresorcinol. The second
yeilding; di-nitroresorcinol.
The third yielding; tri-nitroresorcinol.
Exactly like Tri-nitrotoluene, nitrating toluene results in MNT(mononitrotoluene) after that DNT(dinitrotoluene) and the last one produces TNT(trinitrotoluene).
Is there anyone w ho knows how to find patents? A search for styphnic acid w ould be handy!
PHILOU Zrealone June 26th, 2001, 05:17 AM

On a reactivity scale:
if the speed of nitration for benzene is 1 (it is quite slow)
nitrobenzene is 0.05
toluene is 25
phenol is 2000
If you really w ant to make a three stage process then you have to start from low concentrate nitric otherwise you go directly to the dinitro and even to the trinitrophenol.
------------------

Yeah, that the same as TNT synthesis, I had a good link to put up but have not got the right adress yet.
Here it is get this while it lasts, trust me
http://chppm-www .apgea.army.mil/documents/tg/techguid/tg140.pdf
An excellent read!
[This message has been edited by Tony Montana (edited June 26, 2001).]
Ezikiel July 15th, 2001, 11:33 PM

Hello gang ...
I had prepared a batch of Styphanic acid 3 years ago when I was in grade 10 (I was friends with the lab assistant).
Anyways I simply replaced the Phenol in the preperation of Picric acid with Resorchinol.
I had made 3 batches using 1,2 di hydroxy benzene, 1,3 dhb and 1,4 dhb.
out of these three the styphanic acids had almost the same sensitivity but the Pb styphanates had quite different sensitivties.
1,2Pb Sty < 1,3Pb sty < 1,4Pb sty.
There was something I was wondering about but wasn't able to try .... R the -OH's estrifiable.
------------------
PHILOU Zrealone July 23rd, 2001, 09:39 AM

HO of phenol or not esterifiable! Hopefully, otherwise in TNP synthesis you w ould have troubles :-.
------------------
Tony Montana July 24th, 2001, 01:36 AM

The reason I put that link above was hopefully some people w ould actually download and read it. If you did read it you would have noticed it not only show s you how a TNR
(trinitroresorcinol) manufacturing plant works, it tells you how to make TNR from resorcinol!!
Making TNR from resorcinol is easy. But w hat do you make resorcinol from???
Hex August 10th, 2001, 10:38 AM

You could make it from 1,3-dichlorbenzene and NaOH, but I think this would need pretty high temp/pressure. Might be better to approach it from another angle, and nitrate 1,3-
DCB to 1,3-DC-5-nitrobenzene or 1,3-DC-4,6-dinitrobenzene (probably difficult to do the latter), then do the reaction w ith NaOH - it should go a lot easier once the nitro groups
are on the ring.
The dichlorobenzene can be made from benzene, elemental chlorine and a FC catalyst, but frankly it seems like a lot of trouble to go to make this stuff. As far as I'm aware
Lead Styphnate is only used for getting azide started as it has good ignition sensitivity. For any other purpose a picrate would probably be just as good.
[This message has been edited by Hex (edited August 13, 2001).]

Thanx Hex,
Resorcinol can made from less carcinogenic precursors, also. Check this out, Resorcinol from Glucose:
http://es.epa.gov/ncerqa_abstracts/grants/97/sust/frost.html

Shit!!! That link reminded me - I've seen resorcinol glue! One half paraformaldehyde, one have resorcinol that you mix together!!! I can't remember anything else about it, I
didn't look closely as I didn't have a need for resorcinol and I had a cheaper source of formaldehyde.
I have to find it again! I think it w as in a B&Q Warehouse - all Brits, go to your local one and see if you can find it!

You (I) can buy resorcin in the pharmacy. If you can find a pharmacy, w here they make medicines, they surely have it, and a lot of other stuff. If you need a list of useful
chemicals, write me.
------------------

A pharmacy where they MAKE medicines? Surely that all happens in big factories? Also I'm surprised they sell it to members of the public.

Mr.Cool, just out of curiosity w here do you you acquire your formaldhyde from? Not an exact address, just w hat type of store and w hat is it used for (what do you tell them its
used for?)
Thanx

I think resorcinol is suitable also as an antiseptic so it can possibly be found in the pharmacy .
Formaldehyde is available as formalin solution.Funeral establishment where they do a lot of embalm ing of corpses, usually have large inventories for it.maybe you can ask some ..In
some pharmacies it is available also.maybe you can try asking them also.
For a valid reason tell them ,you are having zoology les sons and would like to preserve animal cadavers for further future experiments .

Camping shops as portable toilet disinfectant (both paraformaldehyde and a formaldehyde solution can be found), dairy farm suppliers again as some sort of disinfectant,
garden centres as moss killer, fungicide or mildewcide.

I don't know, how it goes in other parts of the world, but in Eastern Europe, there are a lot of medicines, which are made in the pharmacy. They are mostly solutions and
suspensions to drink, or to rubbing in (no tablets). There's a useful book w hich contains the recipes for these, It must be in every older pharmacy. It is bilingual, latin and the
national. It's latin title is Formulae Normales. You can find in this almost all the chemicals, you can buy in the pharmacy.
An example:
Ask, if they have Solutio Castellani (if the salesgirl doesn't know, call the pharmacist!). This is used against mycosis, and 50g contains: .25g fuchsin, .5g boric acid, 1g phenoli
liquefacti (I can't translate this from latin), 2g resorcin, 2.5g aceton, 5g ethanol, water.
In my country, laws becoming more and more strict. I can get chemicals so easily, because the pharmacist know s me as a young "genius" for 5 years now. I buy there ccHNO3,
ccHCl, formaldehyde, KNO3, S, phenol.............................
In an other pharmacy, I wanted to make more connections, so I asked KMnO4 and formaldehyde solution. They gave only 10 g KMnO4, and asked for receipt to give the
formaldehyde. I never went back.
I just w ant to advise, to find a friendly pharmacist, and build a good connection w ith him. If you keep telling him your interesting, but innocent experiments, later, he will give
you chemicals illegally too...
------------------

I think many pharmacists know w hat I do anyway. I once asked for three bottles of 9% H2O2, and he asked me what I was going to blow up! But I lied and said it was for
sterilising jam jars, and he sold it me. I bet as I w alked out the shop he was wondering what sort of jam I could be making in December!!!
Tony Montana August 22nd, 2001, 05:28 AM

In regard to the glue, there turned out to be a few notew orthy types:
Resorcinol /Phenolic
http://ww w.avsyntec.com.au/docs/a022.pdf
Urea /Formaldehyde
http://ww w.avsyntec.com.au/docs/a006to9.pdf
Marine grade Resorcinol /Phenol
http://ww w.avsyntec.com.au/docs/a018to19.pdf
Has anyone ever experimented w ith any of the above??

As I explained earlier, Phenol is way more reactive than Toluen. Here the resorcinol is even more reactive than the phenol.
As mentioned Hex, dichlorobenzene can lead to resorcinol. But to make dichlorobenzene is not trivial since it uses:
Benzen (what is no more available due to carcinogenicity), AlCl3 (very sensitive to moisture and corrosive --> HCl + Al(OH)3) and Cl2 (toxic gas).
The AlCl3 is a lew is acid and catalyses the generation in situ of the Cl+ that can reach the electron rich benzenring w hat can't do the Cl- due to electrostatic repulsion.
AlCl3 + Cl2 --> AlCl4- + Cl+
Cl+ + C6H6 --> [C6H6Cl+ ]--> C6H5Cl + H+
H+ + AlCl4- --> HCl(g) + AlCl3
Now there are a lot of troubles here!

Since the reaction is a specific generating every possibility between monochloro to hexachlorobenzene all isomers and we only need the 1,3 dichlorobenzene.
So here is one of the procedure you can think off:
C6H6 + HNO3 dil -heat-> C6H5-NO2 + H2O
C6H5-NO2 + Fe + HCl dil -Boil-> C6H5-NH2
C6H5-NH2 + HNO3 dil -heat-> metanitraniline
mO2N-C6H4-NH2 + Fe + HCl dil --> metadiaminobenzene (mNH2-C6H4-NH2)
Or Conc HNO3 + H2SO4 + C6H6 --> m-dinitrobenzene
mNO2-C6H4-NO2 + Fe + HCl dil --> mNH2-C6H4-NH2
NH2-C6H4-NH2 + NaNO2(aq) + HCl(dil) + 2CuCl --> via a didiazoniumchlorine salt --> Cl-C6H4-Cl
Even better
NH2-C6H4-NH2 + NaNO2(aq)+ H2SO4 dil -boil-> resorcinol (also via a diazonium salt)
If you have m-dichlorobenzene you simply trinitrate it with H2SO4/SO3 and HNO3conc and get trinitrodichlorobenzene. You boil this in alkaline w ater (H2O or H2O/Na2CO3 or
NaOH) and you get the TNR.
There is a lot of possibilities when you know more about organic chemistry...
------------------

Read aspecific instead of a specific
------------------
Hex September 18th, 2001, 01:48 PM

Philou,
Interesting, but aniline nitration isn't that easy, I think. I reckon you'd have to deactivate that amine by acetylation before you could nitrate it without ending up with an oxidised
mess. Like I said before - probably best to stick to good old lead picrate!!
CodeMason October 9th, 2001, 08:17 AM

I'm sure I've seen "dichlorobenzene" w ritten on the packet of modern mothballs.
Alchemist October 9th, 2001, 10:52 AM

It's Para-DichloroBenzene!

Is that para as in a polymer like paraformaldehyde, or para as in the placement of the chloro radicals on the benzene ring? If the latter, does it -REALLY- make that much of a
difference? I think not, except in terms of relative reactivity. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
Hex October 10th, 2001, 06:26 AM

I'm sure it will refer to chloro-orientation on the ring. I don't really know how much difference it would make. Probably not much in the nitration steps, but positioning of the -O
's in the final product may be important in formation of the salt with lead, depending on how "salt like" lead TNR is...some organo-lead compounds show typical covalent
properties.
Alchemist October 10th, 2001, 07:02 PM

Hello all,
It is the chloro-orientation and it does make a differance! How much??? Try it and let us know . I have been wondering what to use MOTH Balls For anyway! Good luck!
THe_rEaL_dEaL May 31st, 2004, 11:24 AM

para-dcb is found in levels >90% in urinal deodouriser cakes.
Zeitgeist May 31st, 2004, 12:43 PM

http://ww w.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/styphnic.htm
A synth of Styphnic acid from Resourcinol

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AN uses other than explosive?
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View Full Version : AN uses other than explosive?
A-BOMB October 1st, 2001, 10:37 AM

Is there any flash comp's or incendearies that use AN or Teflon?
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y A - B O M B ( e d i t e d O ctober 01, 2001).]
CodeMason October 1st, 2001, 10:58 AM

W hat the fuck kind of question is that?
A-BOMB October 1st, 2001, 01:29 PM

C o d e m ason, I was just wondering if there were any AN flash com p's I never saw formula for one so I wanted to ask, and the
reason is I have a a lot of AN in my lab to use and nothing to use it on, as an explosive so I thought is there any
compositions that use AN. So sorry if m y q u e s t i o n l o o k s s t u p i d .
------------------
live by the bom b
die by the bomb
J October 1st, 2001, 05:37 PM

T h e r e a r e n o flash com ps that use NH4NO3 as the oxidizer. Most metal powders are incom patible with it, m a k i n g t h e c o m p
sensitive.
I t h a s b e e n u s e d i n t h e p a s t t o m a k e S u l f u r l e s s B P , s o m ething I'd like to try out when m y ball mill's up and running.
In general though, th ere are m uch better oxidizers available. The only advantages of AN are that it's cheap and readily
available to m o s t p e o p l e .
Do a search for Teflon, it has been discussed b efore.
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://forumarchive.tripod.com )
P G P k e y a v a i l a b l e h e r e ( h t t p : / / p g p k e y s . m it.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
[This message has been edited by J (edited October 01, 2001).]
the freshmaker October 2nd, 2001, 09:53 AM

Or check out the PFP-database www.com e.to/pfp (http://www.com e.to/pfp) . There is a few flash-co mpositio ns with Teflon, and
I think I have seen a AN flash -com p. there also!
------------------
CodeMason October 2nd, 2001, 09:59 PM

O r A m m onpulver. That's AN and charcoal, with KNO3 to m ake it m ore sensitive to flam e . W h e n ignited, it burns
with the vigour of sm okeless powder with 30% nitroglycerin content!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Bullet Detonators
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View Full Version : Bullet Detonators
endotherm June 1st, 2002, 06:34 PM

An idea occurred to m e while reading of Tannerite exploding targets, and exploding targets in general. If it is true that som e
relatively sensitive explosives can be detonated with sm all arms fire, what is to stop the use of their am m u nition as
detonators. My idea would be to drill out where the prim er used to be, and create a sm all hole for a fuse. W h e n t h e f u s e
reached inside the sh ell the slug would be shot out. What if one of these was directly place into a charge as a detonator. The
bullet goes off, and the hot le ad plug is propelled into the explosive at high velocities. I was thinking a .45 or som e k i n d o f
high powered rifle am munition. Anyone with easy access to som e ANNM and am m unition want to try this out and post the
resu lts?
P.S. I know this will not work for explosive like dynam ite and ANFO

the bullet will simply explode like a sm all pipe bom b. without the barrel of a gun to give the cartridge strength it will shatter.
m ight still work thoug h, just for different reasons.
DBSP June 1st, 2002, 06:50 PM

King spaz is right about the cartidge shattering. A nother thing is that the bullet won't becom e e v e n worm in the way you
describe since there is no barrel that create any friction and thus the bullet won't go worm . You might get the bullet out of th e
cartidge by p utting it into a pipe. And drilling th e prim er out of the cartidge isn't a good idea since the friction will case the le a d
styphnate to explode igniting the powder.
EDIT: fuck I spelled Kingspaz Kingspax
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 0 1 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 5 : 5 1 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : D B S P ] < / s m a l l >

i see this topic going now where. by the time you've done all tha t you could have filled it with DDNP or som thing. the reason
s o m e m ore sensitive HE's are set off by sm all arms fire is because the bullet acts like the ham mer test by sm acking into the
e x p l o s i v e . b e c a u s e t h e b u l l e t m o v e s a t such a high spe ed it will not need anythin g particu larly hard behind it to crush the
explosive against. as the bullet hits the point of explosive infront of the bullet will be compressed and explode. the am ount of
s m o keless powder in a round will not create a very powerful blast if at all.
end of topic.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > How do you set off your balloons?
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View Full Version : How do you set off your balloons?
mark October 1st, 2001, 08:28 PM

Hey all. I've been m essing around with hydrogen balloo n s a n d I h a v e h a d bad luck in setting them off. My only sucssesfull way
so far has been using visco and sticky match. This seems kinda stupid, as the fuse costs m ore than the balloon. Its also a
waste using m ore fuse to set of a balloon than I would use to set off a plumer. Any sugestions for an alternative method of
ignition?
PYRO500 October 1st, 2001, 08:40 PM

W hat about a steel wool ingitor put inside? then you could have several and set them off with a car battery or a gel cell.
------------------
visit my web page at:
[URL=http://www.geocities.com/pyro20 0 0 u s / ]

But I want it to float. I would have to b e a total ass if I couldnt set off a stationary balloon.
Anthony October 1st, 2001, 08:54 PM

Length of cotton string soaked in a highly flamm able liquid with one end taped to the ballon - som ewhat unreliable.
Make some touch paper by soaking absorbant paper (towels work good) in an oxidiser solution and leaving to dry. Cut a strip
3/4" - 1" wide and tape one end to the ballon - Reliable, cheap and light weight.
------------------
"Shit happen s. Get a fucking helm et"
Jumala October 1st, 2001, 08:54 PM

Hydrogen is easy to ignit.
I recomm e n d a p i e z o crystal igniter like in camping gas igniters. Use a long wire and form the ends of the wire like a
sparkgap.
1 m m air between the blank ends.

T o u c h p a p e r s o u n d s g o o d , b u t I d o n t h a v e a n y o x i d i s e r s e x e p t r o d e f l a r e . S p e e k i n g o f r o a d f l a r e , I ' v e b e e n e x p e r i m enting
with a wick called "redmatch." Its cotton string coated in rubber cement. The ruber cem ent string is then coated in roadflare
and sugar. This fuse worked well on a stationary balloon, but it went out on m y hydrogen balloon. I might try that again, but I
gets kinda depressing seeing the balloons fuse fail just before it rechess the balloon.
EventHorizon October 2nd, 2001, 09:34 AM

You could try m ixing a paste of Pyrodex powder and putting a pellet at the end of the fuse and afix it so its the pellet that
reptures the ballon.
Its just a tho ught since I've never m essed with H ballon s a n d s u ch.
------------------
-The world is a dangerous place to live , not because of the people who are evil, b ut becau s e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o d o n ' t d o
anything about it.- Albert Einstein
P G P I D 0 x 1 4 7 C EF54
mongo blongo October 2nd, 2001, 05:17 PM

W ell this is what I do (for this purpose)
G e t a s h i t l o a d o f m a t c h h e a d s , m ix with a sm all am ount of acetone or water to g et a thick slurry. Get a piece of paper and
cover it with a thin layer of the slurry (not too thin) and leave to dry. Do the sam e with the other side of the paper (but this is
not really nesecery).
Cut the paper into long thin strips and hey presto you g ot yourself a very light fuse!
Y o u c a n m ix some dextrin into the slurry to m a k e t h e f u s e a b i t m o r e f l e x i b l e .
There is however one problem though. W hen the fuse is burning in a vertical position it burns too fast so i put a bit of
i n s u l a t i o n t a p e o n t h e b a l l o o n to balance the fuse into a diagonal position.
------------------
Low explosives are fo r pussies!
mark October 2nd, 2001, 07:39 PM

Intresting idea, but I used m y m a t c h e a d s t o m ake a more interseting device. Ill have to experim ent with redm a t c h s o m e
m ore.
Hex October 3rd, 2001, 04:12 PM

If you can be bothered, electrolyse som e brine, collect the chlorine, figure out a way to get som e into the b alloon with your
hydrogen, and then set it off with a cam era flash. I've no idea if balloons aren't transparent enough or wha t sort of range the
light would start the reaction from. Lot of hassle, probably quite im pressive if it worked.
Jumala October 3rd, 2001, 08:39 PM
A friend of m i n e h a s u s e d a c e tylene /oxygene filled balloons as firework on a ma rriage party.
H e w o r e a m o t o r b i k e h e l m et and lit the ballons with a long stick with a burning alcohol/sponge at one end.
W orks perfect.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y J u m a l a ( e d i t e d O c t o ber 03, 2001).]
bozza October 4th, 2001, 10:14 PM

I use touch paper. KNO3 im pregnated in newsp aper.Then you just get a 1cm wide strip and whatever length you want, then roll
it up so it looks like string,the n stickytape it to the balloon, when you light the pa per and let the balloon fly it goes off up in
the sky.

Match heads don't dissolve in acetone. So just use wate r.
shooter3 October 5th, 2001, 07:36 AM

I've always u sed toile t paper taped to the ballo on. Works every tim e .
------------------
The truth shall set you free!
mark October 5th, 2001, 11:33 PM

I just did an experiment with som e redmatch on an acetlyne balloon. It continued to burn after the explosion, and it didnt
even go at after I sto m p e d o n i t .

W hat I have been doing lately for m y stationary balloons is taking a sm all blackcat bottle rocket and securing it to the knot in
the neck of the balloon with a thin strip of duct tape. Th e fuse points away from the bottom o f t h e b a l l o o n a n d t h e b a l l o o n i s
set off when the report from the bottle rocket g oes off (nice 5-6 second delay you m ight not get the altitude you de sire
however). Th is m ethod is fairly cheap ($6 for 144 bottle rockets), but not very available since most people don't live 15 m i l e s
away from a fireworks store th at is open year round http://theforum.virtu alave.ne t/ubb/sm ilies/big grin.gif.
I a s s u m e this method would work for H balloon s since the bottle rockets are light weight, but I haven't tried that yet
I'll stick to Acetylene/Oxygen, Propane/O x y g e n , a n d M A P P g a s / O x y g e n f o r t h e t i m e being (less time consuming to fill)
mark October 7th, 2001, 12:35 AM

Or I could just use a water dynam ite.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
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View Full Version : Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
Vegeta June 4th, 2002, 09:15 PM

Alot of people are always wondering about this as an explosive. Here is a synthesis I found.
PREPARATION AND PROPERTIES OF METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE
The three most common forms of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide are:
MONOMERIC: C4H10(O)4
DIMERIC: C8H18(O)6
ANHYDROUS DIMERIC: C8H16(O)4
The anhydrous dimeric form is the preferable form to create; it is more powerful and less sensitive to shock. Bot hforms are
very sensitive to heat. Anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide takes many times as sharp of a blow from a hammer
to initiate detonation than with trimeric acetone peroxide. This is due to several factors:
(1) It is an oily liquid, not a solid, A solid will not shift shape to fit its container, as will a liquid. Thus, when trimeric acetone
peroxide is struck with a hammer, the crystals shatter, causing decomposition; when anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone
peroxide is struck with a hammer, it will shift shape significantly, often avoiding decomposition.
(2) The C-O-O-C group is better shielded in anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide than in trimeric acetone
peroxide. Thus, random energy surges will be less likely to affect the C-O-O-C group enough to break all of the bonds in the
group, which would result in exothermic decomposition, likely starting a chain reaction; this would be perceived as detonation.
(3) There is less stress on the peroxide groups in anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide than in trimeric acetone
peroxide (bond stress is mostly responsible for monomeric acetone peroxide's incredible instability, and anhydrous dimeric
acetone peroxide's relative instability when compared to trimeric acetone peroxide).
(4) The decomposition to an exothermic stage of decomposition of a single molecule of anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl
ketone peroxide requires more energy than with a single molecule of trimeric acetone peroxide.
(5) Less energy is liberated from the decomposition of a single anhydrous methyl ethyl ketone peroxide molecule, causing it
to be less likely that detonation will occur from the decomposition of just a handful of anhydrous methyl ethyl ketone peroxide
molecules.
Perhaps the most valuable property of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is the fact that it can be stored for a long period of time.
Chemical decomposition does not proceed beyond the monomeric form, with the obvious exception of deflagration and
detonation. Autonomous chemical decomposition is very slow when not in the presence of hydrogen peroxide (which causes
the anhydrous dimeric form to begin to decompose slowly into the monomeric form). Because of this, it is wise to prepare
anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide in an excess of methyl ethyl ketone (this fact has been factored into the
below instruction on preparation of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide). Anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a thick,
oily liquid. The anhydrous dimeric form, when pure, possesses a sharp, sour, acidic "burning" odor. The procedure for
preparation that will soon be discussed will produce mostly the anhydrous dimeric form.
PREPARATION OF ANHYDROUS DIMERIC METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE
CHEMICALS NEEDED:
-40mL 27.5% H2O2 solution (other concentrations may be used; the volume of hydrogen peroxide solution will need to be
adjusted accordingly; the quantity of sulfuric acid used will also need to be adjusted)
-25mL Methyl Ethyl Ketone CH3COCH2CH3 (sold as a solvent at hardware stores; keep in mind that it will dissolve most
plastics)
-5mL 98% sulfuric acid (other concentrations may be used, the volume of sulfuric acid will need to be adjusted accordingly)
-200mL NaHCO3 solution
1) Place 25mL of methyl ethyl ketone in a 100mL beaker. Place this beaker in an ice bath at temperatures ranging preferrably
from -10 to 5 degrees Celcius; the lower end of the described recommended temperature range is preferrable.
2) Place 40mL of 27.5% H2O2 solution in a 100mL beaker. Place this beaker in an ice bath at temperatures ranging
preferrably from -10 to 5 degrees Celcius; the lower end of the described recommended temperature range is preferrable.
3) Wait fro the temperature of both the methyl ethyl ketone and the temperature of the 27.5% H2O2 solution to fall into the
recommended temperature range. Then, pour the beaker of methyl ethyl ketone into the beaker of hydrogen peroxide
solution. Stir this solution for thirty seconds.
4) Add 5mL of 98% sulfuric acid slowly, drop by drop, taking care to keep temperatures within the recommended temperature
range, into the beaker containing the monomeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. If the temperature rises above 5 degrees
Celcius, stop adding the sulfuric acid immediately.
5) After all of the sulfuric acid is added, wait 24 hours. It is highly recommended to attempt to keep the temperatures within
the recommended temperature range during the entirety of every step of the prepataion (this is a very common mistake
made when attempting to make trimeric acetone peroxide; most will not bother to keep the temperatures around zero
degrees Celcius while waiting 24 hours or so for the reaction to complete; the result of that is far less stable acetone peroxide
due to lower yields of the trimeric form and higher yields of the dimeric form).
6) The beaker should now have two layers; a thick oily layer on the top, and a translucent white, relatively thin liquid on the
bottom. The thick oily layer on top is the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide. All traces of acid must now be
removed. Pour this beaker into a 300mL beaker. Then slowly add 200mL of NaHCO3 solution. Stir vigorously for five minutes;
try to keep the size of the pockets of the oily liquid (the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide) as small as
possible when stirring.
7) Most of the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide will now begin to sink to the bottom of the beaker. Extract it
with a syringe. Some will also remain on the surface; extract this also with a syringe (it is possible to isolate the anhydrous
dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide by decantation, but this process can be very time consuming, frusturating, and will not
be able to harvest nearly as much of the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide as the syringe extraction method).
If you wish to further deacidify the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, place it in an airtight aluminum container,
in an ice bath (extremely important!). Leave the methyl ethyl ketone peroxide in the airtight aluminum container until bubbles
no longer form. A safer alternative to this process is to add noon-crumpled pieces of aluminum foil to the anhdrous dimeric
methyl ethyl ketone peroxide (also in an ice bath); however this will often make it difficult to recollect all of the anhdrous
dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, due to it sticking to the pieces of aluminum foil; it can be very difficult to remove from
that surface.
9) Now pour the deacidified anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide into an open glass, or plastic (not made of a
polyhydrocarbon plastic!). Let it stay in the open at temperatures around 15 degrees Celcius to allow most of the water to
evaporate off.
10) Now that the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is dehydrated, it is ready for use.
STORAGE: Pour the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide into a sealed plastic container (not made of a
polyhydrocarbon plastic!) for storage. The reason for sealing it is to prevent loss of anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone
peroxide due to evaporation. The lower the temperatures are during storage, the better, with the exception of temperatures so
low that it freezes the anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide.
Density of MEKP = 1.0g/cm3

Freezing point = approximately -5 to -10 degrees Celcius
Dimeric 2-peroxybutane explodes upon contact with concentrated sulfuric acid.
It seems that dimeric 2-peroxybutane (MEKP) is more stable than previously thought. It does not explode unless severely
shocked. I have tried to explode as much as 4mL using only fuse, and that resulted in nothing but a tall pillar of flame. It
does explode with a sharp crack when hit *hard* with a hammer. I suggest using aqueous ammonia instead of sodium
hydrogen carbonate for neutralizing acid.
A dimeric 2-peroxybutane / ammonium nitrate dynamite:

11mL (or grams) of dimeric 2-peroxybutane mixed with 100g of ammonium nitrate.
Madog555 June 4th, 2002, 09:33 PM

i made this from my crappy PVC cleaner once. it makes a huge flame and smells horrible. there is a solid form, it is a higher
isomer and u must make it at realy low temp to get it.
frogfot May 2nd, 2003, 07:39 AM

Remembered a question i wanned to ask about MEKP, and it probably belongs here.
I have seen lots of pictures on MEKP that was taken directly after synth, and it always looks a bit turbid.. Im guessing this
have to do with water present. If so, is it possible/allowable to remove water with concentrated NaCl solution as for NG?
Also, i heard that required temperature during synth is -10 to 5*C.. I thoat to go with 0 to 5*C during addition and 0*C during
24h, sounds resonable? What is your preferred temperature to produce the liquid di- isomer? I don't wanna have the
crystalline tri- form, which is told to form at lower temperatures, cause this will spoil all the fun with "liquid" explosive
compound :p
EDIT: Wanna add that i will use 30% HCl, I have calculated required ammount to 11 ml (instead of 5 ml 98%H2SO4). My calculations was based on pH (taking in mind both protons of sulfuric acid and all dencities).
EP May 2nd, 2003, 11:11 AM

It takes a lot of work to keep it below 5*C and doesn't really seem to be absolutely necessary. Like VoD, I just keep it below
15*C.
NERV May 2nd, 2003, 03:42 PM

I found it pretty eseay to keep the temp below 5*C, just so long as you use a salt Ice bath. Plus I find that when you add the
H2SO4 at a temp over 5*C the mixture sizzles.

is the H2SO4 concentrated? if so, dilute it first before adding, thus no hot spot around the acid will form.
frogfot May 3rd, 2003, 12:55 PM

Thanx for temp info, i'll hold it 0-10*C in further synth.
I made some MEKP (24ml 30% H2O2; 15ml MEK; 7ml 30% HCl; 24h; 10g NaHCO3 in
100ml H2O) and realised that it was hard to extract MEKP because it was over all solution. Extraction could be
probably done with ether, if one have it.. So i've rised the dencity of water with 20g NaCl. This made all oily drops go to
surface, though some very tiny was still "hanging" in water. Good to mention that on addition of NaCl solution bubbled.. i don't
know why, but it's probably hydrogen peroxide decomposing in contact with crap in NaCl (don't ask me what crap..)
Upon waiting 10 minutes, majority of MEKP was in top lyer. Iv'e collected 9,8ml which is satisfactory :) If this was anhydrous di-
MEKP yield is 43%.
THe_rEaL_dEaL October 31st, 2003, 05:58 AM

What do you guys usually do with this.
Do you put it in caps.

Pour it into assorted confined spaces and det with caps or what.
I have tried to explode as much as 4mL using only fuse, and that resulted in nothing but a tall pillar of flame.
Is this the same when under slight compression (as is a liquid = doesn't compress) or in tight confinement, with a fuse?
This stuff sounds pretty interesting. Liquid explosives appeal to me as I like the fact that they fill their surroundings and are
pourable in the true sense. (not just pouring a powder in smal particle form).
Ohhhhh just imagine a hole drilled in a power pole with some of this shit pumped in. Insert some wadding on top and seal it
in place crazy
Leadazide October 31st, 2003, 06:32 AM

To make an effective waterbath at below 0 degress use a 45/55 % mix of Ethylene Glycol/water. This mix will stay liquid down
to at least -20 degress celsius. How you cool it and keep it cold, I don't know. I have the luxury of working in a fully epuiped
lab so I just "burrow! a waterbath with cooling. :)
And just for the sake of it I can mention that I found Ethyele Glycol available from autoshops as windshield wiper liqiud.
Trinitrotoluene November 1st, 2003, 07:45 PM

SWIM made and played around with this compound before. IMO I think it sucks anyways, 15ml was placed into a film canaster
and was detonated with a gram of AP, it really stinked up the detonation site, it wasn't very impressive IMO, AP was better.
knowledgehungry November 1st, 2003, 11:41 PM

I have found the most interesting use of MEKP is pouring it onto a stick, log or stump if youve got a lot, running a fuse to it
and setting it off. It vanishes. Just find something porous and the MEKP will soak in and be able to be detonated by flame.
blindreeper November 2nd, 2003, 12:05 AM

Has anyone isolated the solid version of MEKP? I think i did one time...The mixed reactants were in a freezer at about -20 *C.
After 12 hours it was looked exactly like AP, fluffy white precipitate. I thought it was freezing and know that NG is really bad
when frozen so I put it into the fridge which is about 5 *C. I returned an hour later to find 2 layers that had sepertated.
I think the solid form formed but not sure, anyone had this experience?
metal dragon November 11th, 2003, 01:35 AM

I believe that MEKP if absorbed in the skin and a flame put to it will explode destroying finger. Is this true? Because if it is
there would be a very big risk playing with this stuff.
Polverone November 11th, 2003, 02:12 AM

If you think you might let a significant quantity of a liquid explosive soak into your skin and then accidentally ignite it, this is
not the hobby for you. Beside that, I've heard (though cannot personally confirm) that MEKP stings ferociously when it soaks
into the skin, so it may warn you ahead of time.
lucas November 17th, 2003, 08:10 PM

I was coniderig the possibility of using MEKP as a solvent for AP. It should work quite effectively to increase density and hence
VoD, reduce sensitivity and increase shelf life and workability. I was expecting less than 20% MEKP to be sufficient for a paste
effect. Has anyone heard of this being done and how did it perform.
MSDS http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ME/methyl_ethyl_ketone_peroxide.html
Rosco Bodine November 22nd, 2003, 11:37 AM

The solubility of AP in MEKP is high enough so that solutions which
are 50 per cent each are a liquid at room temperature . The easiest
way of making such a solution is to copreciptate the mixed organic peroxide
from a half and half mixture of acetone and methyl ethyl ketone mixed
with 27 percent hydrogen peroxide in slight excess of theory , using HCl
for the peroxidation catalyst . The mixed AP/MEKP peroxides separate
as the lower layer . Neutralization and rinsing is not required .
A small drop of the liquid soaked into a small bit of paper towel will
detonate powerfully when struck by a hammer , ( steel upon steel ) .
The reactivity of the MEKP component makes non-metallic
charge containers necessary . The liquid should be an excellent performer
in combination with ammonium nitrate , but I have done no tests .
Zeitgeist November 24th, 2003, 05:15 AM

Um, I can easily buy 50% MEKP which is sold as a catalytic hardener for fiberglass resin. I have checked many brands and they
are all 50%.
Has anyone had any experience with this? Excuse me for i am noob.
Blackhawk November 24th, 2003, 05:28 AM

That has been discussed before, I have heard that it is the disolved monomer isomer of MEKP that you can attain my evaping
the solvent, I tried and nothing was happening after a few days, so I didn't bother. However has anyone tried detonating this
liquid as is? or using it to senestise AN? It would be quite good if you could but I think there is little chance of it doing
anything as it is quite stable in the soloution (stable enough to be readily available to consumers).
AsylumSeaker November 25th, 2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Zeitgeist
Um, I can easily buy 50% MEKP which is sold as a catalytic hardener for fiberglass resin. I have checked many brands and they
are all 50%.
Has anyone had any experience with this? Excuse me for i am noob.
I am a noob too, or at least a noob to roguesci. Do you mean you got 50% mek? Or did you actually find mek peroxide which
is sold commericaly.. I get my 100% mek from the plumbing section of the hardware store. It is red though.. so it can't really
be 100%. The colouring must count for something.

The MEK is used as a solvent in joining PVC IIRC, the MEKP soloution is actually the peroxide but it is in around a 40-50%
soloution and is used for catalytic hardening of plastic resins, usually polyester. The MEK can be used to make the MEKP and
the red dye shouldn't effect the final product, appart from making it red. As for the MEKP it's usefulness is still under 'question'
I'm not sure if you could det it, but I assume a powerfull enough shockwave should start it up, but I haven't tried.

I wonder if the 50% catalyst stuff can be puriifed somehow?
I am trying to make this stuff ATM, but the MEK just forms a layer on top pretty much straight away, so i presume there isn't
any way to tell if it's the peroxide or just the original MEK without burning some? .
With one batch, i added extra conc. HCL and some Acetone as well, hoping to form a AP/MEKP blend, this one has not
seperated as much, the whole lot is red and there is only a tiny amount floating on top, maybe this is the MEKP? None of the
AP is precipitating
I'm using red PVC primer, 1000g/L Methyl Ethyl Ketone as well
acetone is the trick for getting the pink stains off surfaces
Rosco Bodine November 25th, 2003, 11:17 AM

This experimental synthesis of a mixed AP / MEKP liquid was
originally posted by Mr. Anonymous at Mad Science .
Mix 105ml of acetone and 105ml of methyl ethyl ketone , in a quart jar having a plastic lid . Pre-chill in a freezer the mixed
ketones , and in separate containers 310ml of Baquacil 27 percent peroxide and 40ml 31.45 percent HCl . When everything is
sub-freezing cold , pour the cold ketones mixture into the cold peroxide and swirl to mix . Prepare a bowl of ice cubes and
water large enough to serve as a cooling bath for the quart jar . Then add the HCl incrementally in four portions every fifteen
minutes and swirl to mix and allow to cool in the ice bath between additions . Place the lid on the jar loosely at first and leave
it in the melting ice for twenty-four hours . The lid should be just snug enough to prevent evaporation but not so tight as to
prevent a slow leaking of any overpressure . A layer of mixed organic peroxides will separate as a clear viscous oil , yield
about 145 grams . This can be pipetted off or a decantation followed by use of a separatory funnel can be used to get the
product which is the bottom layer .
This mixed peroxide solution consists of predominately 50 percent acetone peroxide trimer , and 50 percent methyl ethyl
ketone peroxide dimer , with smaller percentages of different isomers of each . The liquid is incompatible with metals and
reactive towards many things , but seems safe in contact with teflon , polypropylene and polyethylene . A tiny droplet of the
stuff soaked into a small ball of cotton , smaller than a BB if you value your ears , gives a very loud report when place upon
iron and whacked by a hammer . A bit of paper towel works too . The liquid ketones mix could be used an active plasticizer
and densifier for crystalline peroxides to improve their performance , or used as a sensitizer and fuel component similarly as
is nitromethane used for the two component Kinepak type explosives based on ammonium nitrate .
Plastic containers would be an imperative for this composition . While it may well be flame sensitive , the highest performance
would probably be realized if it was cap initiated . HMTD for example or AP caps should be entirely adequate . Such
compositions by weight would be about 1:5 ratio for CO balance and greatest brisance to about 1:8.4 for CO2 balance and
greatest utilization of fuel value of the organic peroxides .
Zeitgeist November 25th, 2003, 09:44 PM

http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/sltc/methods/organic/org077/org077.html
There is some info here, including images of the monomer, dimer, and cyclo dimeric forms
OK some more details of my sucessful MEKP:
With the red oily liquid seperated, it should appear slightly more viscous and dense than the original (pipe primer) MEK, let
this stand to evaporate traces of MEK and there it is. Like HTMD, it won't detonate unconfined from a flame the way AP will,
and like HTMD i can't tell if it detonates or not when belted with a hammer on an anvil.
Pyroman December 16th, 2003, 07:37 PM

I bought a quarter gallon can of polyester resin - used to repair the car bidies-that came with a 25ml of hardener. The
hardener used to be a composition based on benzoil-peroxide that is a white cream, but this time the hardener is a clear oily
liquid and say- METHYL ETHYL KETONE PEROXIDE, i think this is really the explosive mentioned here. Tomorrow Ill make
some experiments with that. I think that mixed with AN must give a high explosive similar to the AN/NM explosive known as
KINEPACK.

The resin hardener is in fact this compound. If you would have looked up a few posts you would have known that. It is the
monomer form. From what I have read, this form is not the best for detonating. It can be used to sensitise though. The
product in your possesion is not actually pure MEKP either. It is actually MEKP in solution, probably methanol or another cheap
solvent. I have heard that if you evaporate the solution you will get a white powder remaining. I really don't know what it is or
why it happens. All the literature I've seen states all forms as liquids.
Making your own MEKP produces a more pure product and more energetic. Plus the experience and fun is unmatched. The
ability to make anhydrous dimeric methyl ethyl ketone peroxide really is an asset to MEKP based charges. It is the most
powerful, and not really any more difficult than any other form.
static_firefly December 17th, 2003, 01:40 AM

Iv made MEKP a few times. It generally burns when in a few drops, but will easly reach DDP when absorbed into something
pourus such as tissue paper and confined. Heres a simple flame test of some MEKP (1 drop)
http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/sectionf/MEKP.WMV
When MEKP is left for some amount of time, say a few months it will turn into the crystal version. Apperently this happens
when there is some H2O2 present.
Zeitgeist December 17th, 2003, 11:04 PM

The Polymerisation Catalyst is normally 40-50% in Dimethyl Pthalate
Even 1 drop will detonate when dripped onto concrete or steel and hit
Being a liquid, it's quite versatile and easier to prepare i think, no need for filtering and farting around
I have been getting better yeilds and greater purity with 30% H2O2, compared to the 6% i used to have
Myrol February 18th, 2004, 07:35 AM

I've made now more than three times MEKP and had a Question about storing that oily stuff! I have three Bottles MEKP: one
with 110ml one with 490ml and one with 550ml absolutely pure MEKP! I washed the big layers 2 times with diluted Ammonia
and bubble some one through the oil to be sure its really Neutralized, remainder Ammonia was extracted with a good final
wash distilled water and than separated in a separatoryfunnel to extract the Water from the milky MEKP! I dried it over
anhydrous Sodiumsulfate to make it perfectly waterclear! Now i have this three bottles in my cellar since two months and dont
want the fluffy solid form who described someone that MEKP turns into the solid form after a while! My MEKP has the same
status like on the first day, but i dont want trouble because its not less (1,15 Liters)
atlas#11 February 18th, 2004, 01:27 PM

That's a lot of mekp! As for storage, I have some that I made several months ago under my dresser and it is still fine. I
would keep it cool and away from sunlight(like HMTD), but other than that it seems storage stable. If I were you I would start
using it though, just so it dosen't have a chance to go to waste. I would guess it would make excellenct (and cheap) boosters
for ANFO charges. A film canister full with a cap would do wonders and it makes decent caps as well, I've made two or three
with KNO3 and they worked well. I haven't made any more because it smells so bad that my parents made me keep it outside
and it was geting cold out(half frozen mekp, YIEKS!).
Zeitgeist February 18th, 2004, 06:58 PM

Keep it in a closed bottle and it won't smell
Don't know if this has already been mentioned, but a couple of drops won't det from flame, but if it's absorbed into something
a drop or two will
Myrol February 19th, 2004, 05:39 PM

Umm yeah lets take a look what sort of Fun i could have with it! Yes i knew it, MEKP smells extremly horrible!! For me
somewhat like Nitrogendioxide, freshly cutted weed, Chlorine, fungused Garlic, fungused Onions and a little like Camphor! But
hey, its no Problem, the MEKP is in a sealed container so it cant smell furthermore! MEKP with AN makes a really good
"Dynamite" if yor mix the MEKP good enough with the AN-Powder! I have a Vid from 2,5kg ANMEKP whats not very impressive,
because most of the AN detonates not and makes a lot of these characeristical white smoke! Poor wasting of nice Energetic
material, ehh? My Idea: a 85/15ner Dynamite (by weight) AN/MEKP! 1150ml MEKP has a weight of 1322g, it has a Density of
1,15g per ccm because i weighted a 100ml Charge pure MEKP and it was exactly 115g :D For the main Charge with this shit
huge Amount i will need ~7,5kg Ammoniumnitrate to make 8820g Explosive.......Fuck......this makes "Bang".....Here in
Germany i have often trouble with the Peppermintprinces or "the Greens" (i hate the Cops!!), such a large Explosion must be
good calculated and not "broked over the knee"! If i did it really, i will film it defenately and post my results here! But i can
proof for nothing......only these sweet "virgin" lake outside the Town could be a good choice to do that! Uhhh oh, theses
pooooor fishes.........Equal!
orgasmo March 30th, 2004, 09:44 PM

I've been wondering for awhile if the MEKP/AP combintation plus AN would be be more powerful than traditional MEKPAN. I've
been thinking about making some of both to see if there's much of a difference but if anyone else has some experience with
this combination some input would be nice.
Myrol April 1st, 2004, 09:59 AM

I would say the mix is the same way strong like normal MEKPAN! Umm Extreme Pyro (EP) says that MEKP is a strong
"liquidizer" for Polyhydrocarbonplastic! Has anyone tested if the thick hard 1,5Liters Coke-cans stand against MEKP? I need for
my next Underwaterexplosion such a Can filled with MEKP and want to know if i can store it in the Bottle?
Skean Dhu April 1st, 2004, 04:10 PM

I'm here to tell you that MEKP is very storage stable, I have a sample thats over a year old and still in liquid form. I got a
partial det from some MEKPAN I made the other day, I never did figure out the secret to setting the stuff off. I think I might
do some flame tests to see how it preforms.
Myrol April 2nd, 2004, 09:48 AM

So is MEKP a solvent for Cokebottles or not? To the Flame tests: MEKP has some specials against AP: MEKP needs around 1
second with a 1300C Bunsenflame to ignite! I tested it six times with same results! The drop of MEKP ignites only partially!
After the Deflagration it stinks like Hell :p MEKP smells fucking "sluddy"
kingspaz April 2nd, 2004, 05:57 PM

Myrol, take a small piece of plastic bottle, and put a couple of drops of MEKP on it and see if there are any signs the plastic is
dissolving.
Rosco Bodine April 17th, 2004, 01:03 PM

It is very likely that the AN/MEKP may be sensitive to the impact of a rifle
bullet and could also be a good "reactive target" composition .
Such mixtures should work with ratios of MEKP to AN anywhere in the

range of 1 MEKP to 5 AN , and 1 MEKP to 8.5 AN , with what is optimum
for a particular mix related to the mesh size of the AN , and the density
of the wetted mixture .
The 50/50 AP/MEKP liquid peroxides mixture described above is more

powerful , higher density and sensitivity , easier to make , and would
be a good experiment for comparison in AN compositions .
A small amount , maybe 5 percent , of the liquid peroxide(s) added to a kinepak composition
should also act as a detonation catalyst to increase
the sensitivity and power output . Such mixtures , if sensitive to the
impact of a rifle bullet would be cheaper , safer , and more powerful
compositions than are the chlorate containing mixtures used as reactive
targets by the Boomershoot group in Idaho .
Cyclo_Knight April 17th, 2004, 06:33 PM

As I post this my MEKP is chillin in the basement. It should be ready within 24 hrs, so be prepared for some AP/MEKP
Comparisons.
Since I have a deathwish, I have apprx. 1/2 Kilo. AP stored and 400 Gms. MEKP. :p
Only prob is i'll have to see if I can borrow a digital video cam from a friend. Otherwise only before-after pics :(
chemistr1 April 17th, 2004, 07:14 PM

What happened.
Finally someone that caught my attention with a sciencetific approach to different ratios and mixtures and with a good video to
prove the different effects. Who was EXACT? And were the hell has the posts gone or was I just dreaming? Cyclo I hope you
sort that digicam sorted out as I would like to see the vids. I have finally managed to get a week off and am planning a
couple of 200gm HMTDAN and ANMNNC charges which I should be able to cam for comparison purposes. I would even have
gone for some MEKP production but I know the wife would play hell with the smell and the baby being in the house.
Myrol April 18th, 2004, 05:22 AM

What is the real main Peroxide in MEKP? I read something on a sciencepaper that normal MEKP is always a mix of 8!! different
peroxides! Peroxidation without sulfuric Acid and a big excess H2O2 forms always monomeric MEKP BUT Peroxidation with
Sulfuric Acid and not to much H2O2 (should) form mainly dimeric Methyl ethyl ketone Peroxide....Umm.........for Peroxidation
of MEK I use ever 100ml MEK 150ml H2O2 (30%) and 25ml 50% Sulfuric Acid! It forms mostly 70ml MEKP and I think its
mostly dimeric! The ANMEKP mixture seems to be VERY powerful but some calculations are really necessary: 4 C8H18O6 + 29
NH4NO3--> 32 CO2+ 47 H2O+ 47 H2+ 29 N2 (Carbondioxide has a higher importancy than Waterformation!). The
Energieoutput per kg are 8245kj and the standardgasvolume is 1100Liters. The exact ratio for both components are 26,5g
MEKP and 73,5g AN but 25/75 looks better :D For my next Underwatertest I will use this mix but the Fuse cause really
problems :mad: (Underwater!)

My MEKP is all finished, however something is strange. The MEKP is a WHITE CLOUDY liquid, which I dont think is right. There
was still a slight amount of undissolved Baking Soda when I neutralized the acid, but I performed 3 thourough rinses with
distilled water and the color is still there. :confused:
Assuming that it IS in fact undissolved Baking Soda, does anyone know if this will affect the senitivity or perormance?. It
should be fine when mixed with AP, but may throw off the straight MEKP comparison tests.
I will post a pic of the end-product on my website, when I get back from dinner.
(YEAAA! Outback Steakhouse!)

If only day-to-day life was "no rules just right"; Then I wouldn't have gotten an MIP last night....fucking pigs. :mad:
Mendeleev April 18th, 2004, 10:42 PM

Which baquacil do you use, there are about 150 different baquacil products, I'm guessin the one labeled "shock and oxidizer",
or is it a different one?
Haggis April 18th, 2004, 10:44 PM
I recently experimented with MEKP synthesis using extreme cooling measures.
Instead of placing in a freezer or using an ice bath, I added dry ice directly to the reaction. I used:
30ml H2O2 ~30%

23ml MEK
10ml HCl 31%
Around a half pound of dry ice was used for cooling. The MEK and H2O2 were cooled seperately using dry ice to around 10
degrees celcius. The two were then added together, and chilled to 0 degrees celcius from the addition of dry ice. I had no
standard procedeure in the amount of dry ice per minute, I just did it whenever I felt it needed it. Then the hydrochloric was
added, and the resulting mixture was stirred vigorously. Dry ice was added fairly heavily at this point. The solid dry ice would
get a slush like coating over it, and the rate of cooling would decrease until the slush was scraped or knocked off, exposing
fresh ice. The mixture was visibly cloudy, assumably from the carbon dioxide going into solution. The beaker was swirled
around, and a chunk of dry ice with a diameter of 5 centimeters was dropped in overnight. The slush coating was left on, so
the cooling would be extended for hours after I left. The last temerature measurement I tool was -20 celcius.
Two days later, the reaction was checked. There was a layer of MEKP on top, and a white foggy mist on the bottom, which was
presumably the trimer of MEKP. The MEKP setting on top seemed heavier then usual, as the layer between the MEKP and the
spent mixture was concave, instead of the usual flat and usual that I normally get.
MEKP was neutralized, suctioned off, and set to evaporate any remaining MEK. Two days of evaporation time, a small sample
was taken to test by flame. A roughly 1cmx1cm sized scrap of paper towel was dripped till saturated with MEKP. A usual batch
of my MEKP in this amount will 'foosh' and produce a small fireball when touched with a flame. This amount detonated with a
sharp snap, putting a ring to my ears. When ignited in a similar matter, two drops also produced a snap, albeit quieter.
The solid material was much too fine to be captured in my filter, so I was not able to test this. Anyone else, feel free to give
this a try and check out any results for yourself.

I used the "Shock and Oxidizer", which contains 27% H2O2. I'm pissed because for some reason geocities is being queered
out. I'm completely unable to post pics in homebuilder. :(
I press "Upload Pictire", and nothing happens. Ill have the pics up if I can manage to get all the cocks out of geocities ass :p
EDIT: Is there a way to post directly to roguesci.org? I've seen several posts with pics in thm but i don't know how to do it.
Please enlighten me if possible, as this will save me lots of Java patching.

When i made my first MEKP it was also visible cloudy and did not clear off within the next months.....I made some more
batches MEKP and washed it with diluted Ammonia and Bicarb until all was nice neutral :) I Filtered all my MEKP over some
grams Sodiumchloride (Table Salt) and let the slight milky Oil stand for one week! After this time it was perfectly translucent
clear and slowly ready for some tests :D ANMEKP (ANBP- Ammonium nitrate Butanone Peroxide) seems to be a - :D :D :D -
choice using it!
Dr_Pind April 20th, 2004, 07:54 AM

It was said that a few drops of MEKP absorbed in cotton wool or paper detonates on contact with flame. It is also said that
MEKP, if properly neutralized, is storage stable for months or even years!
Now. I was wondering, could MEKP be absorbed in some cotton wool inside a plastic tube and sealed to make detonators with a
much longer shelf life, than ordinary AP caps? I guess that this concept would be best for electric caps, since they could be
sealed around the wires.
It would be nice if one could store caps for 6 months instead of 6 days. Any ideas?
Rosco Bodine April 20th, 2004, 09:17 AM

The concept that ketonic peroxides must be freed from acidity
in order to be "stabilized" is pure fiction , repeated ad infinitum .
Acidity actually stabilizes ketonic peroxides , so there is no reason
to eliminate the residual acidity which remains from the acid
which catalyzed their formation . Perhaps the myth arose from
the opposite case being true for HMTD , where hydrolysis and
decomposition of that non-ketonic peroxide is a concern which
makes neutralization sensible .
If compatability with metallic containers is a concern ,

MEKP is incompatable with metallic containers whether
it is neutralized or not , simply because of the reactivity
of the MEKP itself .

If you have made a good Cap with really good AP and for example a PETN-Booster (10g) you can store it undisturbed for
around two months! I made some test how fast AP form bigger crystals...the result ended up in only 1mm thick Cubes! Time
WAS 2 months! So I think its no big Problem using also older AP-Caps! Have you also tried to lit a BIG AP-Crystal? I had tried
it with a 3mm "Big-Dick" one......NICE Crack inside the House :p Now to my mainquestion:
************************************************** **************************************************
*****************I smell things much faster than others and hear sounds also some stronger, thats why I smell MEKP so
fucking strong :( :( (Im Born with this annomaly) but my Eyes are not the bests :p poor but
true...******************************************* **************************************************
***************
------------------------------------
saying things like that could bring you alot of trouble and also unwanted attention here. don't dare to post anything like that
again. - kingspaz
kingspaz April 21st, 2004, 10:12 AM

Rosco, thankyou for clearing up the uncertainties of peroxide neutralisation.
Rosco Bodine April 24th, 2004, 08:09 AM

There is a sensitive "activated" gritty crystalline form of ammonium nitrate
which develops by itself over some months of storage of the prills ,
when the prills are kept in a storage area like an unventilated tin shed
exposed to the daily heating from the sun . There is a crystal form
transition temperature for ammonium nitrate which makes the structure
of prills unstable at slightly elevated temperatures , when the temperature
is cycled above and below that transition temperature by the normal
temperature range of variation from daytime heating and night time cooling
cycles as would occur in an outdoor storage shed . Therefore , in order
to obtain a lower density , absorbent form of ammonium nitrate from prills ,
it is not necessary to grind the prills , but only to store several bags of the
prills in a hot storage shed for an extended time . The bags of loose prills
will actually swell into puffed up "pillows" of fine crystals as the prills
disintegrate due to the crystal form transitions which occur with each
days warming and cooling cycle , effectively "self-milling" the prills in the bag .
I made a liter of the 50/50 AP/MEKP mixed peroxides composition about

a year ago and have kept it stored in a glass bottle with a polyethylene closure ,
under "root cellar" cool dark storage conditions . After a year
of storage the mixture shows no sign of decomposition nor crystallization .
The dissolved AP excludes moisture from the MEKP , and the solution of
AP in MEKP is higher density and energy and sensitivity than MEKP alone .
The MEKP / AN mixture which was used in the tests for sensitivity to
a rifle bullet impact appears to be on the threshold of sensitivity to go
high order from a .22 rimfire , it just needs a little refinement to achieve
that needed sensitivity . So I would recommend trying the 50/50 AP/MEKP
mixed peroxides with the fluffy yet "gritty crystals" of AN which result from
the natural deterioration of prills as described above . That combination
of Rosco's Mixed Volcanic Peroxides "Blasting Oil" and "self-milled" AN prills
ought to do nicely for getting a .22 rimfire sensitivity for high order detonation .
Another thought , just looking at the tests , you might try a half and half mix
of the whole prills and ground AN , with 1 part of the organic peroxide
to about 6.5 parts of the "mixed aggregate" AN , to increase the sensitivity .
A stronger container such as a plastic soda bottle , or anti-freeze jug
might be helpful .
Wes80 April 24th, 2004, 03:10 PM

Regarding the prilled AN, since I used the blasting grade intimacy shouldnt have been a problem like with FGAN, as they are
capable of holding the 20% fuel, about its maximum holding capacity .. Density should have been the main variable between
the prilled and powdered AN used. The main advantage is pourability and the prills non-hygroscopic nature.
I was thinking the Ideal mix would be 80% prilled AN mixed with 20% MEKP desensitised with NM. therefore having non-
hygroscopic prills and safe liquid sensitiser, but this mix seems unlikely to have high velocity performance from the tests
done. Unless the added NM helps step up the VOD, I think this possible but unlikely, roscos volcanic peroxide blasting oil
mixed with a bit of NM .... perhaps! :D I chucked you an email regarding an incident with ye "oil" but I likely chose the wrong
address, youve too many! The ANNM sensitises HNO3/NH4CH2NO2 would also have to be checked for compatability with the
peroxides if NM was to be used.
If I had shot identical charges with the .22 & .25-06 we would have something to go off regarding the effect of varying
activation energy, but my foresight let me down on that one!
A stronger container definately wouldnt hurt but being quickly expendable targets sourcing such a container is an issue, I used
the drink .... things (view picture), minimal confinement but readily available. Im not sure what else I could find of simular
size and availablility.
<center><img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~58717/pulse.altlist.com/images/targetsize.jpg"></center>
Rosco Bodine April 24th, 2004, 05:40 PM

Prills alone have a lot of empty space between the spherical grains .
And the prills are optimized for their property of absorption of fuel oil ,
while retaining a low bulk density , but even explosive grade prills are
known not to be the most sensitive form of AN , just the most convenient
for blending with liquid fuels which are mechanically mixed and coated
onto the prills . If the spaces between the prills are filled with fine
crystalline AN , the fines will act as a wick for the liquid fuel carrying
the liquid to the prills where the prills then absorb the fuel as well .
The density difference between the contiuous matrix of fines , and the
prills , should enhance sensitvity over prills used alone . Also it should
result in a more sensitive composition if the mixture of prills and fines
is lightly tamped , and then the organic peroxides simply poured onto
the tamped mixture , allowed to soak into the AN by capillary action
for a couple of hours or more , instead of being mechanically mixed
with the AN . Broken prills , not crushed completely to a powder ,
mixed into the matrix can also enhance the sensitivity to impact .
The shock from a bullet benefits from some "grit" against which to
deliver its energy , creating many point impact "hot spots" where
hard particles are driven into each other , with the liquid explosive
trapped in the crevices being smashed together , like the closing
gap between the face of a hammer and the surface of an anvil .
Hang-Man April 30th, 2004, 08:35 PM

I have ABS cement that is 75% MEK and 25% abs resin. Will the resin just fall out of rxn or will it blow up in my face? is there a
way to remove it?
0EZ0 May 2nd, 2004, 11:06 PM

Simple low temperature distillation ought to do it. Make sure that if you use plastics that they are not going to be attacked by
the MEK. Have a look on the net for some figures on boiling point. Please make sure you do not use a naked flame during
distillation though. MEK can create highly explosive mixtures with air.....
orgasmo May 25th, 2004, 01:58 AM

I was just wondering, since this is a liquid, extraction by filtration isn't really possible. If a person were dreaming of making
MEKP and they were using a syringe would they use plastic tubing on the end of it since i've read that MEKP is incompatible
with metals. Would a regular syringe work, or would it need to be special?
nbk2000 May 26th, 2004, 06:08 PM

Using ABS cement would be silly, as any precipated ABS particules could act as sources of initiation, like sand in nitro.
Bad...very bad...
A-BOMB May 27th, 2004, 10:05 AM

Well I was out and about and stopped by this home depot and found they had some MEK so I bought some and made some
MEKP? last night and this morning I'm going to use a piplet get the MEKP off of the top and there are three layers of in the
vessel, a 1" oily top layer, a 1/8" white layer, and a 1.5" layer of milky/oily-ish stuff, I'm guessing the top layer is the MEKP.
But what about the other two?
PS: to Mega and out western PA/pittsburgh members I got the MEK out at the Home Depot on Camp Horne Road off of 279)
(dont try the five finger check out lots of camera everywhere, though there is a large camera "dead zone" were the cameras
can't see near the bathrooms in the rear)
me234 May 31st, 2004, 01:40 AM

Hey, how well you reckon it would work to use Tin (II/IV) Chloride to replace the HCl used in the MEKP reaction?
Think anything more stable/powerful/just all round better might come of it?
That tetrameric AP thread got me thinking. They're very similar reactions, I presume same mechanisms, just slightly longer
reagent in the reaction.
chemofun December 6th, 2004, 07:42 PM

I made some MEKP last night and I had the intention of using it to fill up empty CO2 cartridges and experiment with them;
but I remembered reading that it is "incompatible" with metal containers. So I'd would like to know what would happen if I put
MEKP in CO2 cartridges without actually doing it. Asking here is much safer than finding out for myself at potentially the cost of
a limb. I realise that this is an old topic but better to use this one than to waste space starting a new thread.
P.S. What metal are CO2 cartridges made of anyways?
Child-of-Bodom December 7th, 2004, 04:02 AM

CO2 containers are made of aluminium IIRC, but I suggest strongly NOT to use them, as they produce a lot of flying metal
particles upon detonation.
Let something suck up the MEKP, and detonate that.
MEKP reacts with metal, probably little exothermic. Imagine yourself what happens.

All the CO2 cartirdges I've seen have been made of steel.
CoB is right, unless you specifically need a metal container, they are best avoided.
Myrol December 8th, 2004, 12:37 PM

Yes, Cob's are made of steel or brass but I wouldn't say it's to dangerous to use cob's for a MEKP-Detonation.....ohh,
wow.....how are you able to stand the smell of MEKP??? I stopped working with it just because it SMELLS so horrible!
Cob's are not very thick walled, maximum 0,8mm metal, so I would say whilst the MEKP detonates it expands the container
perhaps of 500% of the original volume until it bursts, the metal is then a lot thinner and finer as before so the shrapnel will
not fly very far. Thats my expirience ;) An empty Deo-can filled with ANMEKP produced fingernail sized shrapnel. I searched two
hours with my friend and found no shrapnel farer than 15m away!
It was a surface burst in a sandy area. I was very surprised to find nearly the whole can back, but I was also surprised to find
them all spread around within 15m diameter.
So if you bury your "Cob" under some earth, the shrapnel should lie entirely in the Crater, some could be propelled upwards
but if you're really using a metalcontainer is this no problem?
AP is compatible with metals, MEKP is a Keto-peroxide too, so I *think* it must be compatible with Cob's. Well, a lot of people
have dripped some MEKP on steelplates (ignition test) and it doesn't caused problems! So thats my standpoint why I think you
can do your experiment! :)
Rosco Bodine December 8th, 2004, 01:17 PM

AP is compatible with metals, MEKP is a Keto-peroxide too, so I *think* it must be compatible with Cob's.
Well, a lot of people have dripped some MEKP on steelplates (ignition test) and it doesn't caused problems!
So thats my standpoint why I think you can do your experiment! :)
Why do you suppose that MEKP based fiberglass catalyst is kept in

soft plastic polyethylene tubes ? The reason is instability in contact with
many other materials . That instability may not be pronounced enough
to be evident upon a brief contact test , but it will become evident with
some passing time , which is not necessarily predictable . A better experiment
would be to take a few filings from the metal container and test the reactivity
with MEKP by stirring the filings with a few drops of MEKP on a sheet of polyethlene
resting on a warm surface . If nothing is observed immediately ,
set the test mixture aside for awhile and examine it at intervals of time .
Consider the results and then reevaluate your estimation of the safety of what
you suppose is okay . MEKP and AP have similarities , but different
stabilities and compatabilities with other materials and attendant dangers .
Metallic oxides and other compounds will also catalyze the decomposiition of
MEKP . Such incompatabilities can produce quiet and steady decomposition ,
or can produce spontaneous detonation depending upon variables that have not
been established . The unknowns and unpredictability are not contributors to safety
for such a scenario where you would propose to place MEKP in contact with metals .
It really isn't safe or wise to do that , even though you may get away with it a few times ,
there is a high probability that an unplanned event is going to occur which will contradict
the theory it was safe to allow contact between MEKP and metals . It would be a shame
if the person discovering this is true were no longer around to share with us their experimental findings .

I haven't seen any hard evidence that AP is compatible with all common metals. Do you have a reference?
What you say about the shrapnel not flying very far is probably correct, but what if you are not at a safe distance when it
detonates? Accidents do happen where charges go off during handling, or the instant the fuse is lit. A COB sized charge in a
paper casing going of within a foot, maybe two of your body (you're either carrying the charge by the fuse, or are lighting the
fuse), will probably result in some bruising only. A plastic, or worse metal casing would imbed fragments into your body and/or
mess up your hand. Even if your injuries aren't serious, you'll still be requiring a trip to hospital.
For MEK, why not use little sample bottles or vials? They are of similar size and have the advantage over a COB of having a
sealing lid.
Sarevok December 8th, 2004, 04:02 PM

Posted by Anthony: "I haven't seen any hard evidence that AP is compatible with all common metals. Do you have a
reference?"
PATR2700, volume 1, A44, under Acetone peroxide, Trimeric or Tri acetone Triperoxide:
Compatibility with metals. Strips of metals (Cu, Al, Zn, Sn, brass or Fe) stored with peroxide for 15 days showed no signs of
corrosion: a slight corrosion was observed with lead (Ref 13). (Ref 13: H. Ficheroulle & A. Kovache, MP 31,20-21(1949).)
Personally, I have never seen aluminum or copper being corroded by AP.
EDIT: Of course it is always a good idea to protect metals from explosives by using wax or something similar. One never
knows.
bilen December 9th, 2004, 05:51 PM

BE carefull , one drop to your eyes will make you blind.
aRussianLieutenant July 30th, 2006, 02:02 PM

I made some MEKP two days ago and I want to make some things about it clear.
I took 150 ml of dissolved 30% sulfric acid, 150 ml 31-33% H202 and a mixture of 50 ml acetone and 50 ml MEK. I used
laboratory grade chemicals.
First important thing: despite that someone in this thread said that neutralization is not essential, I noticed that fresh, non-
neutralized MEKP is not that sensitive and it won't explode when soaked into a match stick and ignited, however neutralized
MEKP will.
Second important thing: The use of HCl instead of H2SO4 permits you to avoid neutralization because HCl (unlike H2SO4)
evaporates from the prepared product, making it much more sensitive and ready to reach DDT faster.
Acid stabilizes MEKP and makes it much less sensitive to ignition and more storage stable.
Also some notes about reaching DDT. I took a piece of paper towel with neutralized MEKP soaked into it, put it into a plastic
cap and confined with help of a glass stick. Then I ignited the end of the cap. The MEKP started to burn and gases threw the
cap backwards, of course.
But after about 1.5 seconds of burning, the MEKP reached DDT and exploded with a loud sound just like a usual AP cap.
Material with soaked MEKP should be confined very well in order to reach DDT faster and avoid burning the MEKP out.
I will test the possibility of using MEKP in electric detonators instead of other unsafe primaries and I will post the results here
in a few weeks.
Desmikes August 1st, 2006, 07:14 PM

Main Points:
1. clean, waterfree MEKP can be stored safely for years.
2. observed detonation of MEKP without strong characteristic odor.
I made 150 ml of MEKP more than 3 years ago. I washed it very well with deionized distilled water, and stored it in 50ml plastic
testtubes with plastic lids. Testtubes were stored submerged in water (external weight attached to the outside of the testtube
kept tubes submerged and upright). Water has higher vapor pressure than MEKP and will keep MEKP safe from static discharge
and fire; water also limits temperature cycling and provides some protection from noise, shrapnell etc. in case of an accidental
detonation.
Every few months I used my MEKP and no degradation in its performance was noticed in both flame and shock tests. The
testtube remained intact and MEKP remained cystal clear for about 3 years.
I decided to wash it bc I was starting to worry about its age. I thought that it would be safer to store MEKP without drying it and
to have ~20ml layer of water on top of MEKP. About 6 months later I looked at my MEKP. On the bottom of the test tube the
MEKP was mostly clear, and cloudy (white) on top, the the top of the solid plastic screw-on cap separated from its scirt (part
with threads), it looked as if someonde used a neat can opener to cut all the way around. For completeness, I will add that the
extra weight that I attatched to the outside of the test tube to keep it upright and submerged was a copper wire, I doubt that
it was the reason MEKP turned cloudy.
The 50ml tube had 25 ml of nasty, cloudy MEKP, and about 20 ml of water. I shot the tube with a small-caliber rifle, and got
an expected shockwave. I was standing at the detonation site seconds after and there was very little characteristic odor.
Anyone stored MEKP mixed with water for prolonged periods of time?
aRussianLieutenant August 6th, 2006, 08:15 PM

I am here again to bring you the results of testing MEKP detonators.
We used 200 ml 1:1 MEKP:AP solution. We took a 0.2 meter long PVC pipe, closed from one side with a standart lid. Then we
FIRMLY filled it with many pieces of paper towel and confined them very well. We also enveloped the nichrome wire electric
ignitor into one of the pieces in the middle of the pipe. Then we poured the MEKP/AP into the pipe in vertical condition, and
waited 1.5 hours.
Then we closed the opened end of the pipe using a sticky tape.
Applying 9 V Samsung battery to the ends of the ignitor wires caused the pipe to explode and initiate 8 kg of plastic packed
ANFO charge with an apparently full detonation (we found no ammonium nitrate around).
I am applying the photo of the crater. Sorry it doesn't have any scaling, but I can tell you that it was exactly 3.2 meters in
diameter (we measured it).
http://surferus.pochta.ru/exp2post.jpg
I will do further research to see if such detonators are storage stable. If they are, then I would call the MEKP soaked into
porous material with an electrical ignitor the best detonator ever invented. Easy to prepare, stable in storage, more powerful
than AP, absolutely insensitive to usual impacts and sensitive to electrical ignition. :)
Jacks Complete August 13th, 2006, 09:28 AM

Both excellent posts. Nice one guys.
Bugger August 14th, 2006, 07:29 AM

Of course. It was acetone peroxide, or a similar compound like methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, made by mixing the ketone with
concentrated hydrogen peroxide, mixed on board the planes, and then ignited using wires and the 9 volt batteries in radios or
something similar, that the Muslim ragheads recently arrested in England were going to use to blow up 9 or 10 jumbo-jets and
kill thousands of people. They were going to go onto the planes in trios, one carrying acetone or MEK, another with H2O2, and
the third with a radio with a 9 v. battery.
Desmikes August 27th, 2006, 03:00 PM

Great Pic, aRussianLieutenant. I take it that 1:1 MEKP to AP is a weight proportion, despite the fact that you refer to MEKP by
volume. 8kg is an impressive charge espesially because it looks like an undamped surface detonation. Before you try whether
or not your 200ml detonators are storagable, I would suggest that you try nicrome's compatibility with your MEKP by leaving it
in MEKP long enough for you to be sure that nothing crazy takes place. Perhaps a compound all-primary detonator will be
safer. It can be made of a sealed plastic container (or PVC Pipe) containing the main primary charge w/o nicrome, and a small
(0.5-3g) detonator that can be taped to the main primary charge minutes before the detonation. Keep up the good work.

I made my first synth of MEKP. I used 160ml 30% h2o2 with about 110 ml of MEK. Then added 70 or so ml of HCl in 5
segments. I placed this in refrigerator all night. It is supposed to form two layers. It is all one big cloudy mess. It looks pretty
oily, though, and there might be two layers but I can't really tell. I am going to procede with deacidifying and maybe try to
pour it through some NaCl?
Any advice on this would be appreciated. The temperatures were kept at refrig temperatures not freezer ones so is it possibly
too high? They were probably between 5-10 C all night. During addition it was in a cold ice bath and should have been at or
below 0.
209 June 30th, 2007, 03:12 PM

So from reading the above posts It looks like I can use PVC primer stuff for the production of MEKP? Would it be more
sensitive that using pure MEK or would the dye make no difference? If I made MEKP I would like to make a form of dynamite.
So mixing it with AN seems to work well for you guys? Is it still fuse of nichrome wire sensitive? Thanks.

I havn't heard anyone mention MEKPAN is fuse sensitive. But MEKP KNO3 is several people have mentioned. Get that stump
remover stuff if you can't find it. Then you can use MEKPAN for the main charge.
209 June 30th, 2007, 05:21 PM

I got shitloads of pure KNO3. I may as well start the synth today. Is it true though that different acids have a play on the
sensitivity? I have HCl and H2SO4 that I can use, anyone perfer a specific acid? I may only want to use pure MEKP not mixed
with anything so it can be fuse sensitive dynamite. I guess the best way to do it would be to mix it with sawdust until it is a
slurry mix and put it into a cardboard casing. Is this a good way to do it?

Well I guess it cleared up pretty good, washed it with bicarb solution. Its suspended really bad though I've heard people
mention to add salt to the solution? Any way to get it to sink or float?
Enkidu June 30th, 2007, 11:07 PM

@jagster: If you are having trouble getting the layers to separate, try a centrifuge or adding a concentrated sodium chloride
solution. (Any ionic solution will do.)
@the both of you: I doubt MEKP/PN is fuse sensitive if MEKP/AN isn't. Ammonium Nitrate is more sensitive than Potassium
Nitrate, so why should this case be any different? All you are doing is sensitizing a nitrate.

OK latest update, after removing as much water as I could with salt, there is still a glob of it at bottom but other then that
crystal clear mekp :).
40 ml yield. That doesn't sound like very much does it? To remind I used 160 ml 30% h202, 110 acetone with 70 or so of
30% HCl.
A drop on a piece of wood is fun it snaps and blows chunk out but sometimes it just crackles and doesn't work very good. If
water is insoluable in it then can there still be water in it besides that one blob at bottom? Or is it just acetone desensitizing it?
Any great ideas to get that blob out without refiltering (and losing several ml) of it through salt?
Thanks
209 July 1st, 2007, 12:37 AM

You made MEKP using acetone:confused: :confused:. Have you ever tried making dynamite by mixing it with sawdust? From
how did you alow the drop of MEKP to hit the wood that it would detonate??
* one more annoying question :). Can I use the PVC primer from home depot or will it make the completed MEKP more
sensitive? What should I expect if the contents ar MEK and toluene?
jagster July 1st, 2007, 01:40 AM

Haha I have no idea if you can. Can only try in a small batch. I meant MEK not acetone.
How do you know what kind of plastic a container is...it has been said not to put it in polyhydrocarbon..but what kind is that. I
have it in a small plastic bottle that is clear and slightly flexible but I don't know if its safe to have it in this?
Rbick July 1st, 2007, 02:37 AM

209,
I don't see how the addition of C7H8 (toluene) or C4H8O (MEK) would sensitize your MEKP. I'm assuming when you say
"sensitive" you mean to make it fuse sensitive, as MEKP can already be easily set off by heat, shock or friction, but I don't see
toluene or MEK making it any more sensitive. In the way of oxygen balance, adding either or would just move the explosive
further away from oxygen balance more so than it already is.
C8H16O4 -----> 2CO2 + 6C + 8H2
Balanced:
C8H16O4 -----> 8CO2 + 8H2O - 20O
That means MEKP alone needs 20 mols of O just to balance :eek: I've never played with MEKP, but I highly doubt adding
these would help it become detonatable via fuse. Maybe some smokeless powder of black powder could be used to set it off?
Or even flash! That would be k3wl
209 July 1st, 2007, 03:02 AM

I see. Thanks Rbick! I am going to make some tomorrow and see how it turns out and mix it with saw dust to make dynamite.
Anyone had any bad experiences with it?
The_Duke July 1st, 2007, 03:11 AM

Rbick, its not all 1+1 chemistry so read and REMEMBER what I am going to tell you, it will help keep you from making many
more uninformed and erroneous posts...
Rule of thumb for the formation of combustion products of CHNO explosives.
1. All Nitrogen first forms N2

2. Hydrogen is then burned to H2O
3. Any Oxygen left from formation of water is burned to CO
4. Any oxygen left from formation of CO then forms CO2
5, left over Oxygen then forms diatomic O2
Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) always form in trace amounts.
Now you know... ;)
Enkidu July 1st, 2007, 01:31 PM

If water is insoluable in it then can there still be water in it besides that one blob at bottom?
Yes. Use dehydrating agents to get all the water out.
Or is it just [MEK] desensitizing it?
The solubility of MEK in water is 44mL MEK / 100mL H2O or 35g MEK / 100mL H2O @ 10°C with decreasing solubility
corresponding to increasing temperatures. So a couple of DISTILLED water washes will get rid of any remaining MEK.
Any great ideas to get that blob out without refiltering (and losing several ml) of it through salt?
WTF.
I assume you're still in highschool, but, if you are truly interested in this hobby, it's time for you to get some textbooks on
College General Chemistry and Organic Chemistry. All you need know is there.
How do you know what kind of plastic a container is...it has been said not to put it in polyhydrocarbon..but what kind is that. I
have it in a small plastic bottle that is clear and slightly flexible but I don't know if its safe to have it in this?
This was JUST discussed in another thread. UTFSE.
Balanced:
C8H16O4 -----> 8CO2 + 8H2O - 20O
That means MEKP alone needs 20 mols of O just to balance
FYI, oxygen is a diatomic molecule like hydrogen and nitrogen.
Rbick July 1st, 2007, 02:57 PM

I am familiar with those laws and that N, H and O mols are diatomic (the modified Kistiakowsky-Wilson rules for explosives
with an O balance lower than -40%), I just didn't add the part were the O becomes O2, which I don't think you really need to
for O balance equations. Regardless, MEKP still requires a lot of O to balance out, am I wrong? I'm not trying to be arrogant
and I appreciate you guys pointing that stuff out, but I really don't think my O balance equations are wrong. My decomp. of
MEKP was wrong however...
C8H16O4 -----> 2CO2 + 6C + 8H2 IS WRONG and I apologize, using the modified rule it would be C8H16O4 -----> 4H2O +
4H2 + 8C. My bad :o. But MEKP still needs 20, or I mean 10 O2.
For an exmaple of and O balance equation, in one of my text books (The Chemistry of Explosives, J. Akhavan)they explain
the O balance equation for TNT.
From pg 74 of the text

C7H5N3O6 ----> nCO2+nH2O+nN2+nO
C7H5N3O6 ----> 7CO2+2 1/2H2O+1 1/2N2+nO
C7H5N3O6 ----> 7CO2+2 1/2H2O+1 1/2N2 -10 1/2O
In order to balance the reaction formula for the combustion of TNT a negative sign is used for oxygen. This therefore indicates
that TNT has insuffficient oxygen in its molecule to oxidize its reactants fully to form water and carbon dioxide.
This equation shows that 10 1/2 mols of O are needed to balance 1 mol of TNT. The O would form 51/4 O2, but they don't
because they oxidize the C and H mols.
If I am wrong, please let me know, again I'm not trying to be arrogant or pretend like I know everything, 'cause I don't. I'm
just defending my statement which I believe to be true.
Enkidu July 1st, 2007, 10:30 PM

@Rbick: Hmmmm... good points. I'm not familiar with the notation surrounding oxygen balance equations. I figured it should
be O2 because the oxygen would come from the air (as toluene & friends have no extra O molecules). However, for a general
equation (in which said explosive molecule could take advantage of oxygen from air or an oxidizer such as a nitrate), your
equation is visually simpler and more flexible; I guess it's a matter of preference. Nice rebuttal post though. :P
jagster July 2nd, 2007, 08:35 AM
Haha no, I'm about to graduate with an EE degree. I just like to be thorough by playing dumb for the most part and be open
ears to all suggestions. I know I can pipette the water out and use the drying agents (but which ones?)...but I'll admit it I'm a
bit lazy just want an answer.
I filtered using NaCl does this work good or does something else need to be used? It was very cloudy at first then became nice
and clear after that filter. I didn't want to do it again because I lose a significant quantity each time due to the wetting of the
NaCl. Ill look for other threads on this tonight but sometimes I don't know which terms to search for; I know all the info is out
there.
I never had to take organic chemistry so that might be a good idea to get a book like that. I took basic chemistry for
engineers and it was pretty much worthless. I am interested more in the energetic chemistry, obviously, so that has kind of
steered me away from the standard books. I guess I need to reevaluate it. I'm also kind of waiting around because I might
possibly get an explosives certification and/or mining degree yet; I might have chose the wrong career with BSEE ;).
jagster July 2nd, 2007, 08:32 PM

Ok I searched around and still don't know a good way to extract the water. Will the salt filtering work, or even better CaCl2? I
just want to make sure nothing reacts. The problem with the calcium chloride, I don't trust it heating up when it absorbs the
water. But there should be very little in there..
What about silica gel beads? These don't also absorb the material you pour through them? Need something nonreactive that
will only absorb water.
Epsom salt?
Will just letting it sit in the open for a couple days really dry it out? It doesn't seem that would happen if the water were in
solution somehow. But then again it isn't very soluable so is it even water (vs MEK..maybe it has some in there).
I don't want to make the MEKP gods angry with me when I try to purify it.
Thanks
209 July 2nd, 2007, 08:48 PM

Soo, I am a bit confused. The best base for neutralizing MEKP is NaCl (salt)? What do you do, just pour some salt onto the
pure MEKP when it is in a beaker?? Wouldn't ammonia or something like that work better for neutralizing a liquid? And then
does the base get dissolved into the MEKP and stay there?
jagster July 2nd, 2007, 09:01 PM

Salt does not neutralize it, just removes water. Salt solution will raise the density of water causing the MEKP to float to the top.
This worked very well for me. Otherwise there was water everywhere in solution.
PS: Don't put a cork in a bottle with Sodium Bicarb solution and MEKP....bad mistake haha. My mind momentarily shut down. I
learned the hard way by getting a nice spray of HCl/MEKP/ in my face which didn't feel so hot. I ran quickly to water hose; was
mostly scared more then pain but I was lucky to not get any in eye (was wearing glasses).
I read on *other sites* that we shall not mention ;) and I guess drying it out in open air works but I wanted a faster method.
If I can't find one then poured in open and a fan overnight would probably work, but it will stink up the place unless put
outside. I can only do this stuff on weekends so I have very little time to wait for things to dry. Thats why I am interested in a
filtering way to remove the water/MEK. I never washed my MEKP in distilled water though, only Sodium Bicarb. This could be a
problem also.
209 July 2nd, 2007, 10:30 PM

What is the toxicity of MEKP?? Will MEKP screw up my chances of kids, or is it moderate comepared to other explosives?

lol, it won't mess you up just don't get it in your eyes or on your skin. It just burns nicely. I used some crappy veternarian
gloves and it managed to soak into my thumb and burn nicely.
I wouldn't drink it though or spill it in certain places in large quantities...
I wish someone would study its VOD though...can it be used as good as AP caps? I don't trust AP....until I figure out a way to
press it without being directly exposed. I was thinking a large steel pipe and have it inside there, just a simple barrier to
absorb shrapnel to the body and preferrably hands if I can make it right. Then again, I will prob not use hearing protection
and then get careless because I feel safe and end up blowing out my ears :).
nbk2000 July 3rd, 2007, 04:00 AM

MEKP has been used to make detonators, just UTFSE.

I did it hasn't been much talked about their VOD though, or how it compares to AP except a couple of random opinions.
megalomania July 4th, 2007, 04:16 PM

I don't think you will find much hard scientific data comparing MEKP and AP considering neither are acknowledged as
commercial or military explosives. Anecdotal evidence and opinion will have to suffice unless someone is willing to do the
experiments and share with The Forum.
flashpoint July 5th, 2007, 03:52 PM

Holy shit. Yall fuckers UTFSE.
I see people just like straight asking all about MEKP, its all in this thread in the other page.
They talk about using PVC Primer...you can get clear 'Cleaner' and its the same shit as primer, without the purple dye.
Experiment rather than ask for someone to spoon feed you. Not trying to be a douche but damn...its been said in all the other
threads about MEKP.
webuyhouses July 5th, 2007, 06:05 PM

I have had good results making MEKP as follows:
(Start with the synth on post 1 of this thread)
Use the best h202 you can, because the reaction stops when theres a certain percentage of water in the mix. I tried it once
with 3% peroxide and there was no reaction at all. The yield seems to be about 1/3 the final volume when using 35%
peroxide.
Use HCL, not sulphuric, because the HCL will evaporate off of the finished product, so no rinsing is needed.
When the reaction is finished, put it all in a long neck bottle, such as a clear beer bottle. Add salt and mix well to make the
MEKP float. Add cold salt water to float the MEKP up into the bottle neck, and suck it off with an eye dropper. You should wait
until the bubbles settle out.
As I said, don't bother to rinse it, just let the stuff sit (uncovered) in a warm place for a few hours and all the HCL and
remaining water will evap off, leaving beautiful crystal clear MEKP.
In my opinion, this stuff is not much good by itself, but mixed with AP I love it! See this post: http://www.roguesci.org/
theforum/showpost.php?p=91274&postcount=39

So do you think my yield was bad?
40 ml yield. That doesn't sound like very much does it? To remind I used 160 ml 30% H202, 110 MEK with 70 or so of 30%
HCl.
I filtered it some so lost some due to absorption into different things. I don't know I didn't let it sit a full 24 hours more like
18 or so probably during the reaction. Would it make that much difference? I also didn't stir it but rather swished it around
because I didn't have anything to stir with at the time.

Volume is not a good way to judge yield. Work out molar theoretical yields and weigh your product.
209 July 7th, 2007, 01:23 PM

So I made some MEKP the other day and was satified with the yeild. It was about 50 mL and I had made about 30 mL of Nitro
that morning as well.:eek:. I have a question though (I have used up all the MEKP). I made it, suctioned it off, neutralized it
and added salt to percipitate off the access water but I still had to use a propane torch to get it to ignite and go "poof" like AP
does.
Did I not alow enough time to evaporate the water and HCl (I let it sit in the sun for about 40 minutes) I also couldn't get the
MEKP to detonate when I let a drop fall from 12 feet in the air. What is going on!? I have heard people saying that this stuff is
sensitive! Nitro will readily detonate from that hight!

I wouldn't think it to be that sensitive. I haven't done a lot of tests though. How much reactants did you use to get 50 ml?
It will only go poof unless you soak it in certain things. I use wood mainly for testing. Just put a drop on it and if its pure it will
pop like a cap gun, sometimes causing ears to ring :). Powerfull stuff.
I decided to clean my glassware with distilled water which obviously does not dissolve MEKP. I came back the next week and
there were thick oily liquid beads all over it. If you do this, you will know the correct viscosity for it to be free of water. One drop
of this stuff didn't sputter and snap like my main batch does, but only a sharp crack.
209 July 8th, 2007, 02:29 PM

Reactants:
160 mL H2O2
110 mL MEK
70 mL HCl
H2O2 + MEK mixed gradually in beaker in ice bath. Cooled way down. Slowly started adding acid while watching the temp. Into
the freezer for about 22 hours then I suctioned off all the MEKP of the top. Neutralized and let it sit in the sun for about 30
minutes.
Highly insencitive final product. Only reactive in large amounts to a propane torch and couldn't get it to initiate with a hammer,
or a drop from 12 feet in the air.
Has anyone tried to use MEKP as a blasting cap and actually had it work :confused:. I dont see how this product could be used
as a primary. Has I messed up in the synth or neutralization or maybe didn't let the acid and water evaporate enough?
hereno July 8th, 2007, 03:47 PM

It seems to me that people are assuming MEK is miscible in water like acetone, it is not. The layer of "MEKP" people have is
likely the MEK seperating, that explains this non-explosiveness. Pure MEKP is nearly as sensitive as AP.

You are right in that MEK is not miscible with water; however, it is still very soluble. 44mL MEK / 100mL H2O or 35g MEK /
100mL H2O @ 10*C with decreasing solubility corresponding to increasing temperatures. Would a mod please edit my above
post to this effect? I'd rather not leave erroneous information uncorrected.
Because of the high solubility of MEK, a water wash will remove most of the MEK from the MEKP.
The layer of "MEKP" people have is likely the MEK seperating, that explains this non-explosiveness.
From what is the MEK separating? It won't separate from either the aqueous layer (as long as its solubility is not exceeded,
which it won't be in a normal MEKP recipe) or the organic layer. It may evaporate from either or both layers (due to it's high
volatility), but it won't separate.
The 'non-explosiveness' is probably water in the MEKP. Just like some MEKP is left dissolved in the aqueous layer, some water
will be left in the organic layer. A hygroscopic agent like magnesium sulfate will remove the traces of water.
209 July 9th, 2007, 01:33 AM

I actually did add a sodium bi-carb water soultion to the suctioned of "MEKP" and the so called MEKP immediatly began to fizz
and bubble then rose to the top creating a very distinct layer above the water which I believe is pretty pure MEKP. So what your
saying is I should use a drying agent? Can I use ammonium nitrate?
So to use the drying agent on the MEKP drop a teaspoon or so amount of AN into the pure MEKP and wait 20 minutes then try
and suction of the MEKP and leave the solid AN remaining in the beaker? Is this the way you guys do it?

I believe you guys are making this too hard.
when I make MEKP (in my dreams) it separates into 2 distinct layers, and you can easily observe bubbles of it floating around
like a lava lamp. The MEKP is close to the density of water, which is why salt is used to make the water more dense.
I don't think MEKP is water soluble enough to be a problem, just let the finished product sit in the sun for a while to clarify it.
By the way, the reactants and the finished product always have an unpredictable cloudiness. I think the moon phase has
something to do with it. I dont worry about it, just let it sit when done. The sun helps a lot, because my last batch set
overnight and was still cloudy but 2 hours in the sun and it cleared right up.
As for the sensitivity:

Its damn near impossible to set it off in a liquid form.
try soaking a piece of cotton in it, and use a hammer or flame, or a drop of sulphuric acid.
Even soaked into something, the detonation tends to be weak.
Also:
try and suction of the MEKP and leave the solid AN remaining in the beaker? Is this the way you guys do it?
MEKPAN is a decent explosive, and I think AN dissolves in MEKP. Don't waste your MEKP by trying to dry it.

I actually did add a sodium bi-carb water soultion to the suctioned of "MEKP" and the so called MEKP immediatly began to fizz
and bubble ...
It fizzed and bubbled because of the escaping CO2. The sodium bicarbonate was neutralizing whatever acid you used as a
catalyst.
So what your saying is I should use a drying agent? Can I use ammonium nitrate?
Yes, use a drying agent. No, don't use ammonium nitrate. Why the hell would you use ammonium nitrate? Just use the Epsom
salts like you mentioned earlier.
So to use the drying agent on the MEKP drop a teaspoon or so amount of AN into the pure MEKP and wait 20 minutes then try
and suction of the MEKP and leave the solid AN remaining in the beaker? Is this the way you guys do it?
Yes, that's the general idea.
The MEKP is close to the density of water, which is why salt is used to make the water more dense.
I don't think MEKP is water soluble enough to be a problem, just let the finished product sit in the sun for a while to clarify it.
No. The purpose of the brine wash is to polarize the aqueous layer even more than it already is; it has nothing to do with
density (that I know of).
The problem is not that the MEKP is water soluble; it's that the water is MEKP soluble (slightly). Any trace of water left in your
MEKP will desensitize it. (BTW, that's probably why you've got boring pops out of it, as you mention later in your post.)
By the way, the reactants and the finished product always have an unpredictable cloudiness.
The cloudiness is due to tiny water droplets in the organic (MEKP) layer. As they separate, the mixture will become less cloudy.
A brine wash will help take care of that.
I think the moon phase has something to do with it.
I was completely unaware that the moon's phase affects my experiments. :eek: Maybe that's my problem with the PVN.
*falls over laughing*

The purpose of the brine wash is to polarize the aqueous layer even more than it already is; it has nothing to do with density
(that I know of).
I don't mean to be a dick, but please explain why my MEKP floats around like a lava lamp, then zips right to the top when the
water gets salty. Thats the only reason I add salt. I don't wash the MEKP with anything.
Enkidu July 10th, 2007, 12:07 AM

Good question. Honestly, I've never seen the scientific reasoning behind the brine's prowess. Could it not be that the MEKP
wants to be in a nonpolar liquid like itself? The more polar the liquid (an ionic solution is more polar than deionized or distilled
water), the better the MEKP sticks together, and you'd have less of the lava lamp action.
That's the way I've always thought of it, and that's probably because it was explained to me in a lecture that way. Maybe you
could look it up and report back with your findings. :)

I was curious how thick (a comparison to something? corn syrup?) is absolutly pure mekp. I have dried mine quite extensively
and it seems to work pretty good. One drop on a piece of wood makes the ears ring (though, sometimes it will crackle slightly)
when a flame is brought near. However, my unclean beakers had beads of it that seemed much thicker rolling around in the
bottom. I wonder how much drying it truly needs. These beads were probably more like corn syrup. They never hesitate to
violate your ears :)
Also is it safe to set this stuff in the sun? I wouldn't want to do that to AP or really this if it is as unstable as the forum talks
about.
DONMAN July 10th, 2007, 04:51 AM

As far as I know there is no problem with leaving AP in the light, just as long as it doesn't get too hot... Although I don't know
if this is the same case with MEKP.
Webuyhouses when you add salt, the waters density is increased therefor the less dense MEKP floats up to the top. doy
209 July 13th, 2007, 02:39 AM

In Arthis's thread on AP I read that some had tested and used the AN/MEKP mix. How is your AN used? Is it ground or is it
used in prill form? What size of cap do you use?
rangegal July 29th, 2007, 09:37 PM

Has anybody here ever use ammonium nitrate mixed into their ice bath to help cool it down?
It's convenient if the temperature gets too high and you need to cool it quickly, plus at the end you can boil the bath water
down and collect the AN for use in other explosives as long as you didn't put anything else in the bath.
I'm sure other people do this, I've just never read about it before.
209 August 4th, 2007, 03:05 PM

Yep. Adding AN to the ice bath is a good idea if you require a cooler icebath. With synths like NG I always use AN in the icebath
(and a gallon of cold water nearby). Adding AN to an icebath in large amounts can usually stop most runaway reactions :eek:
totenkov October 27th, 2007, 10:12 PM

I am in the midst of an MEKP synth and I am trying out a new source of H2O2: wood stain.
I just went to check on the beaker and Wow!! the liquid has turned a very deep green murky colour. I don't like it. An amazing
100 mls of MEKP has already formed in the last 15 minutes, I dont know what the hell is going on but in my experience this is
far to fast. Am I making somthing that is going to be dangerous, should I dump it, or has this happend to someone?
Any ideas?
Rbick October 28th, 2007, 02:10 AM

100 mls? How much are you making and why? And what the hell else is in wood stain? And why would you even use wood stain
in the first place if it isn't pure of anything other than H2O2 and water? What amount and controls did you use in your
synthesis? (temperature, amount of "wood stain" used) So many questions... More information is needed if you want more
reliable opinions and suggestions.
And MEKP isn't green, so I don't know what you're looking at there. I would say dump it, and get a real source of H2O2, or find
a way to purify it. And yes, 15 minutes is way too fast, so chances are its not MEKP. Although it could depend on the amount
and conc. of catalyst used.
Or you could always extract whatever it is you think could be MEKP, dump all of it on a towel and whack it a few times with a
hammer. Darwin awards anyone? :rolleyes:
Enkidu October 28th, 2007, 02:18 AM

I imagine his 'wood stain' has some polar compounds in it, which, of course, are not miscible with or soluble in water. So he's
probably just seeing the phases separate.
I can't imagine that there's much hydrogen peroxide in the wood stain. Did you even look at the MSDS?
Shadowmartyr November 19th, 2007, 09:39 AM

This peroxide has me confused. I've heard of people with many types of this stuff, one being a liquid, the other being a oily
solid; so what's the difference, what happens in the synth that decides which it will be?
Also, if you do a normal 2:1 AN:Peroxide mix, will the MEKP soak into the AN prills making it more or less a solid? How does
the mixture store? Is there any other precautions that should be noted for this mix?
Thanks
Masonjar Chemist November 19th, 2007, 11:40 AM

MEKP is an oily LIQUID. If you are looking to soak it into ammonium nitrate, I would definetly go with powederd instead of
prilled, it soaks in much better. Also the mix will make a "sludge" not so much solid.
Rbick November 19th, 2007, 05:52 PM

Yes there are precautions. Treat the mixture like you would APAN. There shouldn't be any storage of MEKPAN, they should be
mixed right before use. The amount of MEKP that should be added should not make the mixture liquid, it should stay as a
somewhat moldable solid.
Usually to find the right amount to AN to mix, you just figure out how much Oxygen the explosive being mixed needs to fully
oxidize. This will maximize performance and give you better results. I'll throw out a little fun tutorial here to show how to find
O balance with AN mixtures (I'm kinda bored). This can be used with any other explosive/AN mixture too :). To figure it out,
the formula of MEKP is C4H16O4. So when it combusts, it will go to
C4H16O4 ---> 4H2O + 4C + 4H2, or something like that. Point being, there is a lot of unoxidized byproduct! So the job of AN
is to provide that extra oxygen, hence it being known as an oxidizer. We know AN produces 1 O (or 1/2 O2) upon combustion.
NH4NO3 ---> 4H2O + N2 + 1/2O2
Look back at the MEKP, to fill use up the rest of the valence electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_electron) (or fully
oxidize) of the byproducts (being H and C, making water and carbon dioxide), we need 6 O2. So we need 12 AN to do that to
make it look like:
C4H16O4 ---> 4CO2 + 8H2O
Use the super awesome mole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28unit%29) method to figure out the proper percentage. A
mole of a substance is proportional to its atomic weight. Or 1 mole of x is equal to x's atomic weight, but in grams. To find a
compounds atomic weight, add all the elements atomic weights. AN's atomic weight is about 80 units, so a mole of AN would
be 80 grams. MEKP has an atomic weight of 128, or 1 mole would be 128g. So if we need 80g of AN 12 times to oxidize 128g
of MEKP, we do this.
80 (12) + 128 = 1088
Then take 80 (12) / 1088 = .88 (100) = 88%

and 128/1088 = 12%
So the mix would be 88% AN and 12% MEKP for a fully oxidized, properly balanced charge :) Of course it won't be PERFECT,
but it will increase the performance of you explosive the closer you get. For more explanation on that, check out my post on
Heat of Formation in the Erythritol Tetranitrate thread in the HE section. Hope this helps.
Shadowmartyr November 19th, 2007, 06:00 PM

Wow, that was an awesome post Rbick! You answered my question and then some =) , I've always wondered how to calculate
things like that for full oxidation of the mixture.
I've worked a little bit on chemical equations and such in my chemistry class, like balancing them and such. However, how do
you know exactly how a compound breaks down, without knowing what the molecule looks like (maybe that doesn't make
sense, but bear with me I'm trying to learn =) ).
Basically if I was just looking at MEKP and knew that the compound was C4H16O4, how would I figure out what it breaks down
into, I do know the mass of the reactants needs to be the same as the yield although, of course thats basic chemistry.
But anyway thanks again for the great information, and I will for sure be using this in the future to calculate mixes properly for
full detonation.
BE carefull , one drop to your eyes will make you blind.
Is that true? :eek::eek:

Also, judging by what people have been saying, 3% h2o2 won't work with the reaction, contrary to the synth instructions which
says that lower concentrations could be used but the volume should be adjusted. I can't get my hands on anything above 3%
right now so should I even bother trying this? I'd rather not waste any chemicals.
Rbick November 19th, 2007, 10:34 PM

Considering many explosive compounds consist of C, H, O and N, it is accepted that at some point during the decomposition,
the products will be mostly carbon monoxide/dioxide, water vapor, and Nitrogen gas until they react with other elements to
become more stable. For instance, a single Oxygen atom will form a co-valent bond with the nearest Oxygen atom to form
O2, since this would be its most stable form, making Oxygen a diatomic element (di means two). This is not completley
accurate for the entire reaction, as for example, decomp. of AP yields molecules of Ozone (O3).
Nature always trys to find a way to reach equalibrium, and in the case of elements, try to reach a noble gas (http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas) type configuration with as little "lone" electrons in their outer energy shells as possible.
Carbon bonded with two oxygen yields a configuration close to that of a noble gas, being its most stable form.
As for getting it in your eyes, I don't know if you'd go blind, although I could be wrong. But it would be best to wear eye
protection either way. God's gift of site is not something I would want to risk on the account of making some MEKP :p
For the Hydrogen Peroxide, just boil it down. You can reach up to about 12% with this method. I imagine 12% would work,
although your yield wouldn't be extraordinary.
The_Duke November 19th, 2007, 10:39 PM

This peroxide has me confused. I've heard of people with many types of this stuff, one being a liquid, the other being a oily
solid; so what's the difference, what happens in the synth that decides which it will be?
In a nutshell, MEKP exists as several isomers, the formation of trimeric 2-peroxybutane (solid) is more prominent in colder
reaction conditions than the anhydrous dimeric 2-peroxybutane (liquid).The trimer is always formed and found disolved in the
dimeric along with other isomers, this is the cause of the oily crystaline MEKP.

Well I'm all ready for the synth but I have one problem. I can only get a hold of 3% H2O2. I think I heard this in the AP
thread but say you have 300ml of H2O2, would it be feasible to boil it down to 1/10th its volume, in this case 30ml, and get
30%? I don't think that sounds right at all, but if anyone could clear this up and correct me if I'm wrong I'd would appreciate it.
Thanks
JohnG November 24th, 2007, 01:11 AM

You won't be able to boil the 3% down to 30%. The boiling point of the 3% H2O2 is only a few degrees above 100c. The best
you might hope for by boiling is 10-12%, there is a post (by NBK if I recall) here somewhere when he boiled the 3% down and
tested the result as around 12%.
I see you live in the USA; have you tried pool supply stores? I buy my 30% H2O2 at a pool supply chain (Leslie's), it's about
$20 for a gallon. I believe it is used as an oxidizer in pools.

Unfortunately there are no such stores around. But anyway, I'll search for that post. Thanks for the info.
Masonjar Chemist November 24th, 2007, 01:15 AM

No offense Shadowmartyr, but you should really do a bit more reading before you ask a simple question like this that has
b e e n discussed so ex tensively. Yes you can bou t it down to one-tenth its vo lume; no it won t be 10 times as concentrated.
Some of the peroxide will decompose and leave you with more water. For future reference anything that is said about AP is
more than likely to be true for MEKP. As for not being able to obtain better than 3% peroxide, it is a well-known fact that
bleaching kits for hair may have 6-12% and that non-chlorine pool clarifires may have up to 35%.

No offense Shadowmartyr, but you should really do a bit more reading before you ask a simple question like this that has
been discussed so extensively.
Yes I know it has been discussed extensively, I don't always trust what others say which is why I asked for a second opinion on
the matter.
Some of the peroxide will decompose and leave you with more water.
That's kind of obvious if you only have a concentration of 12%.
For future reference anything that is said about AP is more than likely to be true for MEKP.
Not really..on almost every other organic type peroxides 3% works very well, for this however it does not. And also, you should
know that AP and MEKP have alot of different properties that should be taken into consideration. I shouldn't have to point
those out but anyway it's besides the topic at hand.
Masonjar Chemist November 24th, 2007, 01:15 PM

That's kind of obvious if you only have a concentration of 12%.
I am not in this to start a flamewar, but if you already knew this, then why the hell did you ask?
I can only get a hold of 3% H2O2. I think I heard this in the AP thread but say you have 300ml of H2O2, would it be feasible
to boil it down to 1/10th its volume, in this case 30ml, and get 30%?
totenkov November 24th, 2007, 01:34 PM

You Don't need 30% H2O2 to make MEKP.
I used simmered down 3% and wood stain from the hardware store as my source for H2O2. Wood stain comes in a two part kit
its about 45-50%. One bottle peroxide and the other I haven't cared enough to find out. With higher concentrations the only
difference is slightly larger yields and a faster reaction.
Hinckleyforpresident November 24th, 2007, 04:32 PM

You Don't need 30% H2O2 to make MEKP.
With higher concentrations the only difference is slightly larger yields and a faster reaction.
Not from what I've seen. I've made MEKP from 3%, 12%, and 35%. The only ones that produced liquid MEKP were the 12%
and the 35%. The 3% has been left alone to react now for about 2 months, there is some fluffy whitish solid precipitate on the
bottom. The 35% produces MEKP in a few hours, the 12% takes a night or so.
I've taken little bits of the solid MEKP out of the 3% to test it, it is between white and very light gray in color and is an oily
solid. It is pretty shockingly powerful, far more so than liquid MEKP, IMO.
Note: My refrigerator is at about -15oC.
EDIT:
Here are some pictures of the solid MEKP
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee69/Hinckleyforpresident/?action=view&current=1124072239a.jpg
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee69/Hinckleyforpresident/?action=view&current=1124072239.jpg

@I am not in this to start a flamewar, but if you already knew this, then why the hell did you ask?
Yes I know it has been discussed extensively, I don't always trust what others say which is why I asked for a second opinion on
the matter.
@totenkov
I found a kit like you described today at the local ACE Hardware store. It was $10 for the pack, it is sold as a wood stain
removal kit and comes with 2 liters of 50% h2o2. The other bottle is a solution of sodium hydroxide.
Ethyl January 7th, 2008, 07:41 PM

The 3% has been left alone to react now for about 2 months, there is some fluffy whitish solid precipitate on the bottom.
I've taken little bits of the solid MEKP out of the 3% to test it, it is between white and very light gray in color and is an oily
solid. It is pretty shockingly powerful, far more so than liquid MEKP, IMO.
What ratios of reactants did you use when making MEKP with 3% H2O2?
Thank you in advance.
totenkov April 19th, 2008, 11:29 PM

I cannot remember the exact ratios of the reactants, as I have not made MEKP in many years. With ketone peroxides I think I
would use equal proportions of peroxide and ketone. That would be 50:50. This is also using a 30% solution, so substitute
with 10x as much.
With HMTD there is no reaction when using a 3% H2O2 solution, so I would use strong mineral acid to drive the reaction.
inFinie June 9th, 2008, 10:41 AM

I think MEKP seems to be turbid because of the NaHCO3 reaction progressing very slowly inside MEKP blobs.
After deacidifying the mixture, adding a few ml of MEK will push the floating MEKP to the bottom. (mekp.png)
What kinds of salts does MEKP form when reacted with metals? only metal oxides?
Drill a hole into a cork, small diameter just for a few drops of MEKP. Introduce flame. There is no cork.
Rbick June 9th, 2008, 12:50 PM

Its been a while since I've made MEKP, but if I remember correctly, the MEKP forms as the bottom layer of the liquids as it is
more dense than the remaining unreacted peroxide, water, and MEK. In that picture, the bottom layer looks more like the
MEKP. What quality are your reactants?
Also, I noticed that MEKP is turbid shortly after extracting it from the mixture. In most cases, I didn't bother to neutralize the
MEKP and it was still turbid without introduction of bicarb. Given a few days, the MEKP became crystal clear. My guess is that it
is due to trapped air bubbles introduced when extracting it with a syringe. Given time, the bubbles float to the top and
disperse into the air. Adding bicarb would produce air bubbles as well. But either way, you just need to let it stand for 24 hours
or so to let the bubbles settle out and get the crystal clear liquid that looks so nice.
Ethyl June 9th, 2008, 03:00 PM

It is strange that the MEKP is orange. Do you use pure MEK?
inFinie June 16th, 2008, 04:43 PM

All reagents were of high quality.
Sulfuric acid: 98%
H2O2: 30%
MEK: >99%
Unreacted mixture also contains sulfuric acid I suppose, and since MEKP's density is close to 1 g/cm^3, it floats.
My nice orange MEKP became crystal clear colorless after exposure to direct sunlight for 6 days with very little ( 1-2 ml ) of
evaporation loss. And that might be the water dissolved in it.
Rbick June 16th, 2008, 05:27 PM

Oooh you used Sulfuric Acid. In that case, the MEKP would form on top, since SA is very dense. You could probably dilute the
SA a bit so you don't have to use as much. I personally used 31% HCl and it works great, plus I didn't have to worry about the
troubles that sulfuric acid often causes. Just some food for thought :cool:
Alexires June 16th, 2008, 10:46 PM

And this is exactly WHY all relevant information should be included in the original post. Rbick gave advice based upon what he
uses and only because he didn't know that you used Sulphuric Acid he gave you wrong advice (through no fault of his own, I
might clarify).
To all, if you want advice or help with something, please make sure that you include all information that you think may be
relevant, no matter how slightly.
Better to have the right answer than to throw away your product, or worse, explosively remove parts of yourself.
Rbick - It might be that the turbidity is formed by air bubbles that are attached to small goblets of (in your case) Water,
Hydrogen Peroxide and HCl. In my opinion, these air bubbles are more likely due to the catalytic decomposition of Hydrogen
Peroxide by Sulphuric Acid than any thing introduced mechanically (such as a syringe). Or, if you are shaking it around, it
sometimes takes a fair while for layers to separate out.
Hightimes June 17th, 2008, 03:53 AM

I plan to make a few ml soon just to test out, how much more stable/unstable is this to TATP?.
Also would 50% h202 be alright ? or would I need to dilute it ?
( sorry for my noob questions lol )
Ethyl June 17th, 2008, 06:08 AM

I had a problem with MEKP. I made it with 19% HCl, MEK p.a. and 30% H2O2 p.a. I mixed 20 ml of peroxide with around 20
ml of MEK and around 10 ml of HCl. The majority of MEKP formed in one minute. I let it stand for around 30 min. Then I
extracted some MEKP (top layer) and soaked a piece of toilet paper with it. Strangely it only slowly burned. Them I tried to
ignite a few drops of MEKP with a match. I couldn't light it. Then I mixed it with sodium nitrate in a ratio around 50:50, put it in
a small plastic bottle with a hole in the cap for the sparkler and tried to ignite it with a sparkler. It only ignited and burned
slowly until it extinguished itself. Strangely after 4 days of standing it started to behave normally. Does anyone know why did
the MEKP behave like that?
That is very strange as I have made MEKP/AP and it behaves like it should, but pure MEKP doesn't (well it does but only after
4 days).
And as far as I know MEKP and MEKP/AP are storage stable. Are MEKP/AP/AN and MEKP/AN also storage stable?
Oh, there is one thing I would like to say about MEKP/AN. It is extremely important how the AN was prepared for it. If AN is
made by recrystallization from a fertilizer, dried and then ground it wont work very well because when the AN is drying in the
oven it melts in the water it contains. So when in solidifies it becomes compact and nonporous and even when ground up fine
it doesn't absorb MEKP good. On the other hand if the AN is dried, ground up partially and then heated again (but not hot
enough to melt), ground up a little more while hot and then finally ground when it cools it becomes much more porous and
absorbs MEKP much better. You can also notice the difference between AN made with only one heating (much harder to
ground, and the resulting powder looks like compact particles) and AN made with two "heatings" (much easier to ground and
particles look fluffy).

Then I tried to ignite a few drops of MEKP with a match. I couldn't light it.
MEKP, although a liquid, is just like any other explosive. There will still be water in between the MEKP molecules, so you need
to give it time to dry. Letting the air bubbles that we talked about earlier settle out could also be important, since air bubbles
leave the chance for hot spots, therefore increasing sensitivity. Although it would increase sensitivity, I think it would lower
power, making air bubbles something you don't want.
And as far as I know MEKP and MEKP/AP are storage stable. Are MEKP/AP/AN and MEKP/AN also storage stable?
I recall seeing a post where a guy stored MEKP in a jar for years under water and it worked fine. I personally wouldn't
recommend it, as storing sensitive explosives is never a good idea. Try not to store it more than a couple weeks. Plus
everyone knows how hygroscopic AN is, so unless it is sealed, that isn't a good idea either.
Thats a good idea for the AN. Remember that with a rise in temperature, solubility also increases. There isn't a point in
heating the AN to near its melting temp of 169* C. You can dry it just fine at 100* C. Leave AN in the oven at 100* for 4 hours
and you'll have the driest AN ever, ever... :D

on the other hand if the AN is dried, ground up partially and then heated again (but not hot enough to melt), ground up a
little more while hot and then finally ground when it cools it becomes much more porous and absorbs MEKP much better. You
can also notice the difference between AN made with only one heating (much harder to ground, and the resulting powder looks
like compact particles) and AN made with two "heatings" (much easier to ground and particles look fluffy).
AN undergoes a change in crystal structure at high temperatures- See Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powders and Explosives on
why AN based "black powder" didn't catch on as artillery propellants despite their good performance and cheapness.
Essentially, cycling the AN back and forth past the transition temperature a few times causes the crystals to break up,
increasing the surface area. A bad thing if you're trying to make a consistently deflagrating propellant, a good thing if you're
trying to get larger amounts of liquids absorbed into the fine cracks in the crystals for HE uses.

To add on to Bert's comment - There is a document on the FTP that deals with the different densities of AN after certain
crystallisation processes (different temperatures).
Perhaps I am missing something, but in Rbick's earlier post

Its been a while since I've made MEKP, but if I remember correctly, the MEKP forms as the bottom layer of the liquids as it is
more dense than the remaining unreacted peroxide, water, and MEK. In that picture, the bottom layer looks more like the
MEKP. What quality are your reactants?
he stated that the MEKP forms on the bottom, with the left over MEK/H2O2/HCl floating on the surface. If this is indeed the
case, then you are actually NOT extracting MEKP, and the solution you have is still reacting (hence you leaving it for a while
and it working).
Ethyl, have you ever tried burning the other layer?

Alexires; Thanks, I missed the part where he said he extracted the top layer and that he used HCl. I keep getting Infinie's
and ethyl's posts mixed up.
To clear things up:
If you are using undiluted SULFURIC ACID in your MEKP synthesis, the MEKP will form on top, since SA is very dense.
If you are using HYDROCHLORIC ACID, the MEKP will form on the bottom, as it is more dense than the unreacted MEK, water,
and HCl.
Ethyl; The reason it was only burning slowly was because you were trying to detonate unreacted MEK, H2O2, and HCl (make
sure to read Alexire's response above). Try extracting the bottom, more dense layer and see what happens. It should
detonate with an impact test even just minutes after extraction. Do an impact test first, try just a single drop and that should
do the trick. Wear a gas mask, it smells like SHIT ;)
Ethyl June 18th, 2008, 11:56 AM

I forgot to say one thing in the previous post, sorry. At first I could see the MEKP forming on top of the reaction mixture. Then
I tried to burn it and it didn't burn as fast as it should. After 4 days the MEKP sank to the bottom (only a very small amount
was left on the surface). Then it worked very good.
cpropellant June 18th, 2008, 04:07 PM

Good day to all formites.
I am still learning,so please excuse any stupidity,mistakes made on my behalf.
I'd like to add a comment about observed sensitivity of MEKP and MEKP/AP-50%/50%.
The sensitivity of these two compounds differ a lot between shock initiation and
heat/flame initiation.
MEKP,when mixed with oak barrel wood shavings (used for smoking/flavouring meat), didn't detonate completely from
flame,but it is still very shock sensitive.((as just pure MEKP tested *by throwing quite hard against wall (inside silicone tubing
sealed with hot glue-gun at the ends.Crappy detcord)).
MEKP/AP on the other hand is easily initiated both way's.I always get full
detonation from whichever medium I mixed it with.It makes for useable detonator caps
in drinking straws sealed with hot glue.Just coat electric ignitor with NC.
Also,some 200 milliliter of both MEKP and MEKP/AP were put in sun for 3 day's to dry completely and then sealed in 500
milliliter normal plastic drinking bottle.
These were left in a hot summer sun for 3 months without any ill effects and still useable afterwards.
There was a partial pressure build-up in the bottle and I noticed liquid condensate
on the inside.
I don't see how this could be water vapour,maybe decomposition products?
Peroxide's were prepared by using 50%H2O2;30%HCL and lab-grade butan-1.

Temperature wasn't kept low and reaction vessel became very warm during addition of HCL.
Peroxide formed instantly and vessel was cooled to delay further evaporation of reactants.
After 24 hours product was washed using only H2O and neutralized with bicarbonate between many washings and decantations.
When left to stand the now clear peroxide sank to the bottom of vessel and was extracted.
I didn't cool the initial reaction as I wanted to observe the impact on the sensitivity and stability of formed peroxide's.
A pdf. file in this thread (link by The Duke) states that the trimeric form of MEKP decomposes to the dimeric form anyways,with
up to six or seven other peroxide's forming as well.
So I didn't put much emphasis on the tetrameric form by cooling.
*Bad idea,but it was long ago and lesson learned.
Ethyl June 20th, 2008, 04:28 PM

I also never cool the reaction mixture when making MEKP/AP.
Also I don't neutralize it. Apparently it is not required for MEKP/AP.
fluoroantimonic June 28th, 2008, 09:32 PM

Yesterday (in a dream of course) I mixed roughly equal volumes of Hodgdon Longshot shotgun powder with MEKP/AP.
Absolutely nothing happened. I then added about 4 times the mixture's volume of acetone. It formed a very pretty
pearlescent black and silver mixture. After lengthy stirring it became mostly homogeneous and sticky. I then poured it in a
thin layer onto aluminum foil. It is now drying.
I'm hoping it will evaporate the acetone quickly, but I'm afraid it will just form a dry skin on top and remain full of acetone.
I'm not sure how that could be solved. A little acetone shouldn't hurt things much, just reduce sensitivity.
I think it would be easier just to absorb the MEKP/AP into powdered gunpowder. I don't know how to grind it safely though.
Maybe slurried with water in a blender? And a long extension cord on it...
Also the way I synthesize my MEKP/AP is by putting a 1:1 Acetone:MEK mix and a 1:1.5 battery acid:50% H2O2 in the freezer.
Once they're cold I add a little of the ketone mix to the beaker of peroxide/acid until the the temperature rises up to 5*C or
so. Then I leave it in the freezer for a few more hours and repeat the process until all the ketones have been added. Then I
suck it out and wash it with water and its ready to go. It gets good yields (maybe 60-70% based on ketones IIRC). I just did a
batch that that has a theoretical yield of 480 grams. Have yet to measure yield. It will hopefully go into sensitizing a big load
of AN and sensitizing DBSP for a booster.
EDIT: I just measure the yield of the MEKP/AP synth, 221 grams of nice clean clear MEKP/AP after washing with water twice.
46% yield, not too good, but I was in a bit of a hurry. I'm happy with it anyhow.
I also checked on my DBSP based plastic. It seems to have lost its acetone quicker than I expected. It now has a stiff rubbery
consistency to it, maybe stiff enough to crack if pulled quickly. I don't know how much acetone is left because I never weighed
it, but it doesn't look like much at all. If one wanted something easier to mold, a higher ratio of MEKP/AP would help. Also
using straight MEKP would improve its elasticity. It seems promising for a cast primary or sensitive secondary depending on
the ratio. It does present a challenge because it shrinks a lot when it loses the acetone. Not sure how to deal with that.

Right. Where to start?
I am still learning,so please excuse any stupidity,mistakes made on my behalf.
If you had read the rules, you would know that we do not excuse stupidity. We don't care if you don't speak English as a
native language, if you are still learning, or if you profess to be some kind of genius. Proof is in the pudding. (Also the space
bar is there for a reason, it goes AFTER the comma... any punctuation for that matter).
If we can't understand what you are talking about, you will be banned. If you say something stupid repeatedly, you will be
banned. This is as much for your safety as ours. Stupidity is not something you can grow/learn out of, it is a trait that you will
have for life, if you have it.
In the future, leave these asinine "disclaimers" out of your posts.
It makes for useable detonator caps in drinking straws sealed with hot glue. Just coat electric ignitor with NC.
I hope the hot glue was applied well before your mixture was put in the tube. Hot glue + sensitive explosive = lack of fingers.
These were left in a hot summer sun for 3 months without any ill effects and still useable afterwards.
There was a partial pressure build-up in the bottle and I noticed liquid condensate
on the inside.
I don't see how this could be water vapour,maybe decomposition products?
It could be water that was in the atmosphere when you closed the bottle, it could be unreacted reactants (the reactant was in
excess originally) or it could be decomposition products. My guess is it is just water that was left over from when you sealed it
(and reaction by-product), but you could always remove a sample and test it to find out.
Peroxide's were prepared by using 50%H2O2;30%HCL and lab-grade butan-1.
Butan-1 what? Butan-1-ol? Butan-1-amine? Butan-1-ene?

It is important to use correct laboratory names so we know what you are talking about instead of having to guess. In this case,
I'm assuming you were talking about Butan-2-one? I'm guessing this because, after all, this IS a thread about MEKP and MEK
is Butan-2-one (Butanone).
This is your first (and last) warning. Improve your post quality in the future.
I probably hate you June 30th, 2008, 05:30 AM

I just wanted to add some of my knowledge of mekp with everyone I have been making this before I was a member here
because it is easy and cheap. You need to keep the temp down when you are mixing it or it will vent acid like fumes (I
assume by the burning and taste) horribly I learned the hard way from mixing too fast. Mixing some acetone (substituting
approx 30% of the mek) IMO increases vod and density. In my syn. it usually would settle to the bottom with minimal layers
elsewhere and after settling for several days would all join together in one layer (any random floating layers at different
densities) Dampening not saturating wood or charcoal then allowing it to dry at least overnight seems to give the best results,
I have tried to mix it with dbsp, perlite, aluminum, well you name it I was bored and tried it I think charcoal worked the best. I
by no means know everything there is to know about mekp but I do have several years exp. with it. You will make your life
more pleasant if you make/use it in a very well ventilated area I usually have a small fan blowing across my eyes to help with
the fumes. This stuff while liquid can be stored for a long time my last batch, I just finished it, sat in its jar for over a year. I
have some small explosives mixed up now if anyone would like a video I can make one and post it, they are just small
crackling balls (emptied fireworks plastic containers) filled with a saw dust mekp mixture.
totenkov June 30th, 2008, 12:32 PM

How long do you allow the reaction to sit? With a higher concentration of HP (in the mid 30% range) It goes in the fridge for
one night only, I have found this is more than enough time for the MEKP to form and float to the top.
It should be obvious that any synthesis of a primary high explosive should be carried out in proper ventilation.
fluoroantimonic June 30th, 2008, 06:04 PM

I have never noticed any fumes when making MEKP or MEKP/AP. If you are using HCl and allowing the reaction to warm up,
that might do it, especially if HCl's solubility is reduced by the ketones. I have never needed special ventilation, and never
smelled anything but the smell of MEK and MEKP later on. I never let it rise much above 5*C.
And why would MEKP+Charcoal be effective? MEKP is already very OB negative. Maybe the fine charcoal produces a secondary
explosion when mixed with the surrounding air?
I usually let it sit in the freezer for a day or two after all the reactants have been mixed.
I probably hate you July 1st, 2008, 03:01 PM

I usually allow my reaction to sit in the fridge until I use it all up but initially it is done reacting overnight but often, I dont
know why, there are several different layers of mekp I can only imaginge it is different desities from adding the AP and after it
sits longer they all seem to unite sometimes it takes a week or so. I know about proper ventilation maybe I am doing
something wrong but the fumes from my mekp kill my eyes or maybe it is just me. Yes I do use HCI and it does warm up a
little I try to keep it as cool as possible but due to my own impatience it doesnt keep cold so that probably explains that. As
for charcoal I dont know wouldnt the OB balcane be way wrong with sawdust as well , if anyone knows why it works with different
substates better would they please post it. I do not know the chemistry behind why it works and would like to know. Oh year
something else that is fun is to apply about 5 drops to a piece of cardboard about 1.5" dia. (like from a box of a 12 pack of
pop) allow that to dry for several hours then light that from a safe distance it will crack loud enough to make your ears ring, so
you might want hearing protection if you value your hearing, it turns the cardboard to a fine floating cloud of dust. One last
thing about the OB balance I just though of I tried to set one of my green cased balls in an enclosed box (late night
mischieft) and it did not detonate a second one with the door to the box open only a small crack partially detonated and with
the door fully open I finally got a full det blowing the back of the box out, so maybe an oxidizer could be mixed in with the
mixture to help the OB.
I do appologize if my posts are jumpy and poorly writen I am just not that great with communication.
I probably hate you July 2nd, 2008, 04:32 AM

I took some photos of a detonation but I don't know exactly how to link them or set them up I apologize but I have never
done this before if anyone would like to see them please explain it to me if not don't worry about it.
FUTI July 2nd, 2008, 10:13 AM

to I probably hate you: Maybe charcoal corrects negative OB of MEKP a little since it can adsorb good amount of oxygen (air)
on its surface? MEKP is something I have no experience of and if I said something stupid MODS please delete post. What
quantity of charcoal is mixed to a mass unit of MEKP?
fluoroantimonic July 2nd, 2008, 09:13 PM

My MEKP/DBSP plastic has now hardened even more, I suppose the last of the acetone is gone. It is now the consistency of a
hard plastic like HDPE but not as strong. I can't tell how much MEKP/AP is still in it, there must be quite a bit, it evaporates so
slowly.
I tore off a thin piece and lit it with a match, it burned quickly leaving no residue. Not as fast as MEKP soaked paper though.
Now I need to figure out what to do with it...
Devourer July 21st, 2008, 08:45 AM

Something just popped into my mind:
As MEKP is fuse sensitive when "soaking into things", could you make a fuse sensitive plastic explosive?
Maybe by mixing it with ETN, which is among the most sensitive secondary explosives, you could make a fuse sensitive mix..?
ETN has much oxygen, so maybe we could get it OB! Or at least not far from.
When properly neutralized, both ETN and MEKP are storagable. ETN needs to be recrystallized, of course.
Maybe some chlorates, perchlorates, or Mg could be added to the mix to make it DDT, if it doesn't work with just ETN/MEKP.
I have no have no intentions to test this, but I think it was an interesting thought. So I just mentioned it to either be
slaughtered, or brought to life.
fluoroantimonic July 29th, 2008, 05:22 AM

I already thought of this, its not a bad idea as far as I can see. I doubt it would DDT without containment though, even
straight MEKAP is reluctant to DDT in the open. Some other sensitizer additive might solve that though. But really why does
one need a plastic primary?
Devourer August 12th, 2008, 07:32 AM

Because it would have been a very cool thing to achieve making! :D
As far as I know, no one has ever made a primary plastic explosive...

But I can't see any special uses for it either. :)
So it would have been only because of curiosity
Sorry for my late respond. I've been on holiday.
fluoroantimonic August 15th, 2008, 09:30 AM

I have heard tell of silicone(or rubber cement) + acetone peroxide plastic primary. Doesn't seem like a smart idea though, not
to mention pointless.
Cobalt.45 August 15th, 2008, 10:34 AM

Not wanting to stray too far OT, but plasticized primarys have been discussed in the past to some fair extent.
See: http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=349
As "plastics", primaries are useful if for no other reason that they are then "self-contained", and they tend to be somewhat
less sensitive.
LegionOfBoom October 15th, 2008, 10:56 PM

Hello,
First time poster here, been a "lurker" for some time however. I found lurking to be adequate for learning the basics, and
would like to extend my gratitude to all the members of this site for keeping it professional in comparison to the "other" sites
out there.
Now onto my question (yes, i've UTFSE for quite some time and could not find a direct answer to my question) -
In most of my dreams - MekpAN was always a great blasting substance, cabable of taking down any tree that stood in it's way
with proper setup, and great for reducing old appliances to manageable sized pieces of scrap metal. My typical setup is any
amount of MekpAN (from 75g to whatever) boosted by a 7g ETN booster, slightly tamped, set off by an electronicly controled
cardboard blasting cap containing .5g of slightly tamped HMTD.
All this is great, but I'm interested in moving onto the more advanced side of HE's, I'm more into the idea of using HE's
efficiently, so I can use less - to do more, I guess you could say im not really into big loud booms so much as the cutting
effect, or piercing effect of HE's. Lately I've been looking to dream about the munroe effect, and the elusive wine bottle
shaped charge for starters. In everything I've read here on RS.com, ANNM has been capable of producing respectable results
with the wine bottle SC. The main problem with ANNM for me is that NM is a red flag item, when purchased legitimately OTC
and up to this point I've been able to keep "clean" of putting my name down for anything, so I'd like to stick with MekpAN due
to it's ease of manufacturing the base components.
What are the differences in estimated VOD's and brisance of MekpAN and ANNM? Can I expect to achieve similar results when
using MekpAN in a wine bottle SC setup compared to ANNM? And is a 100g AN to 11ml mekp mixture correct (I've read it was,
and done some simple balancing equations to figure it out)? I'm not looking to penetrate 2 inches of steel, more so just
looking to dabble in shaped charges on concrete (cinder blocks, rocks) or dense wood (trees) and wondering if I will be able to
achieve this with MekpAN. If this question is considered a request for spoon feeding please let me know, I was not able to find
anything on using MekpAN for this.
::edit:: I realize something like ETN would be more ideal for this (and I have no problem making 100gr batches under close
control) but I'm asking if I can use MekpAN and still achieve a shaped charge effect, or if anyone has used it and achieved
performance using a wine bottle similar to ANNM.
fluoroantimonic October 16th, 2008, 12:47 AM

MEKP/AN will probably not work quite as well as good ANNM, which is seems to be superior to most other AN compositions. Then
again just about any old explosive will go through concrete or wood when put in a halfway decent shaped charge. I think
almost anything will work, just some much better than others. For example a good ETN charge will do probably do much better
than any ANNM, 2 inches of steel is a piece of cake for a 100g! So I would recommend ETN over other things, it will work so
much nicer.
Or you could make some hydrazine for Astrolite and do even better! Heh, just kidding... if you're worried about getting NM,
you're sure as hell not ready to deal with anhydrous hydrazine :p.
Also I don't think NM is heavily watched, as long as you're not trying to buy 55 gallon barrels of it. Still, it's not very easy to
get, the best OTC source I know of is R/C fuel that can have up to 40% NM and that can be a pain to purify without the right
equipment. All in all it'd be easier just to go with ETN.
If you're really interested in shaped charges and haven't found it already, this (https://sciencemadness.org/talk/
viewthread.php?tid=10575) thread may interest you. Good luck.
PS. Another interesting AN composition is AN/NM/H2SO4, which seems to be much more powerful than ANNM. See it here
(http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies5/).
LegionOfBoom October 16th, 2008, 12:56 AM

If you're really interested in shaped charges and haven't found it already, this (https://sciencemadness.org/talk/
viewthread.php?tid=10575) thread may interest you.
Thanks for the honost response!
I've been a member of Sciencemadness as well for a while, but haven't posted on either site (until now) because I've been
able to just lurk and aquire knowledge that way.
That said, I'm familier with that thread and I've been through it a few times. I agree ETN is probably the most fail-safe way to
go with an easy to make shaped charge, and I'm very comfortable with making it now and have a very good method for
making 100g batches controllably.
I just figured it would be worth asking if MekpAN was suitable for achieving any shaped charge effect using a wine bottle.
***************
Use proper spelling
-Hinckleyforpresident

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Detonator, easy, save and storable
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View Full Version : Detonator, easy, save and storable
Jumala October 5th, 2001, 10:49 PM

Im thinking since a long time about making a det cap which is simple, easy to make, save and storeable. I dont like the most other improvised caps because theyre made
from AP, HMTD or other sensitive primaries which must "pressed" into a shell or something else. This things are dangerous,
cannot be stored and you get nervous breakdowns while making them.
My idea is to make a two component cap which needs only a very small amount of primary.
(less dangerous) The primary should be a leadazide/styphnate mix with some binder to form a moldable putty.
The primary needs a carrier made of a wooden, 1-2 cm long dowel that fit into a for example 12mm PVC pipe.
I drill a 10mm hole in one end of the dowel approx. 5 mm deep. In the other end I drill two 1 mm holes through the dowel which ends in the bottom of the 10 mm hole.
Then I put 2 isolated wires through the holes and solder a SMD chip resistor to the ends which lyes at last at the bottom of the 10 mm hole. The wires are fixed with epoxy.
Then I put a drop ( 0,05-0,1 g) of primary putty in the hole on the resistor and let it dry.
At last a layer of wax on the primary pellet could be useful.
Now the primary carrier is ready to be mount in the PVC pipe.

It is fixed with 2 component epoxy glue.
Then the first part of the cap is ready.
The second part should be PETN. Both parts are stored separate.
When a cap is nessesary I need only to fill approx. 1 g of PETN in the open end of part 1 (without pressing), a piece of wad on the top and seal the open end.
Ready is the detonator.
The problem: Thats all theory. I never build one.
Can anyone see any bugs in this theory? Better ideas are also welcome.
(Drawings are available)

The only problem I can see is finding some of those explosives. If you got them lying around, go for it.
Microtek October 6th, 2001, 11:31 AM

Use silver acetylide instead of lead azide; it is much easier to make and isn't all that sensitive. It is also not very powerful but has a reasonable initiating capacity. I wrote
something on exactly this topic ( multiple component detonators ) a while back.
Mr Cool October 6th, 2001, 03:03 PM

Sounds good to me.
I'm in the process of making double salts my main primary (switching from HMTD and Pb Picrate, which are scary and a pain to make, respectively). I can buy 2.5L of c. 65%
HNO3 for 20, silver for 8 per ounce (quite a lot, but that can make a lot of caps) and calcium acetylide for 3/kg. The only problem is the calcium acetylide - loads of places
sell it, but only in places like Wales and Scotland where caving is a popular activity (they use it for lights, obviously). And since it's dangerous they won't post it, I'd have to go
and collect it. So if I can't find a nearer place, I'll get a little acetylene tank.
a_bab October 6th, 2001, 04:53 PM

To Microtek :
I made my first batch of Ag2C2 when I was 13 (and kewl). I used my mother's jewelry to make AgNO3, and the silver acetylide was quite pure (dirty-yellow when precipitated
, then it turned into a graysh color). I have found that is far too sensitive when dry; when wet, there is no problem at all. But in a dried state is more sensitive then AP, i.e.
(my opinion).
I heard about a guy from my high school who had a stupid accident with this compound: he carried in a pocket some Ag2C2 stored in an empty matchbox, and suddenly it
went off, leaving a nasty wound on his foot.
Then, it was my turn : I used to make no more than 1 gram of silver acetylide, stored in a small plastic box, like film canisters. Tehe involved batch was very dried, in a dark
gray powdery form. I remember that I was holding the plastic box in my hand, trying to remove a paper label glued to the box, and suddenly it went off, leaving me (and a
friend from my room) deaf. And my hand was filled with bruises and in some places (between the fingers) the skin was removed, etc.
Now, I believe that it was a static discharge wich caused Ag2C2 to detonate. Ag2C2 is a good primer, expensive also, by I would never advise someone to use it. It is easy to
make, but is very sensitive. Think before you do it ! You may try on a small batch, well dried, how sensitive is.
------------------
Damn, I got a nitro-headache again...

Why bother with silver acetiyde? Just make AP.
Mr Cool October 7th, 2001, 08:10 AM

At least with acetylides they're predictable - fuck with 'em and you know they'll go off.
But peroxides are not as predictable, they might go off for no reason.
Also, despite being more sensitive, acetylides are often more stable than peroxides, meaning they're better for storage.
Jewelry may have copper etc. in it to make it harder, in which case your product won't be pure ("dirty-yellow" sounds bad) and therefore maybe more sensitive. The silver I
can get is 999.9 purity, meaning it's 99.99% pure - not bad!
Well, I'll be able to try it soon, and I'll tell you all how it goes...
Microtek October 7th, 2001, 08:38 AM

Yes I expected very high sensitivity when I made some, and so I only prepared a very small amount, which was dark grey and turned black after a while. I kept most of it
under water, and dried a tiny amount ( ca 0.01 g ). When dry , I divided the grain in two, expecting it to go off, but it didn't. I touched a flame to one of the halves, and it
detonated with a sharp crack, but here comes the strange part: When I used the other half to test for impact sensitivity by placing it in a folding of Al foil and hitting it with a
hammer, it didn't go off! I tried again and again and even though I hit it as hard as was reasonable while it was lying on an iron anvil, nothing happened. I then picked up the
Al folding, which was now fused from the hammering, and held a flame to it. It exploded immediately.
I repeated these tests numerous times, both with samples from this batch and from others, but the results were always the same: Extremely sensitive to flame or spark, and
totally insensitive to impact.
I used silver from an old spoon with 92.5 % silver, so maybe the impurities have some stabilizing effect.
a_bab October 7th, 2001, 04:23 PM

The 'dirty-yellow' color of Ag2C2 is the good one, of pure product. The silver obtained from my mam's jewelry was impure, because the nitric acid turned into green, but is
enough though for silver acetylide making.
If you try to detonate small quantities as 0.01 grams, by hammer it might be impossible. I found too that silver acetylide is insensitive to strikes, but is EXTREMLY sensitive to
flame. I guess that in this aspect is reasembles with lead stifnate.
...And why you expected for an explosion when you splitted a small quantity ? Is not NI3 though !
------------------
Jumala October 8th, 2001, 12:22 AM

I want to get the leadazid from rifle primers.
I dont know how much is in one primer cap ( I will weight it somehow) but I think 10-15 caps are enough for PETN. If not so I must use my second choise. Its
mercuryfulminate. (I have 250g mercury in stock)
Making PETN is also no problem.

It works without pure HNO3. I can use the H2SO4 + KNO3 method like wantsomfet shows.
PETN is very sensitive to leadazid so that smallest quantitys work.
I will try to upload the drawings somewere.
Takes a while.
Microtek October 9th, 2001, 03:45 PM

a_bab: My point was that I had read many places that silver acetylide was extremely sensitive, so I was surprised to find that it was only sensitive to flame and not impact.

sorry to bring up an old topic, but i believe i've found the root of confusion here :)
ok, there seems to be a mix up between silver acetylide (Ag2C2) and double salts (Ag2C2.AgNO3...think thats the formula).
many texts i have read call double salts silver acetylide for some reason. anyway, i have made both. double salts intentionally and silver acteylide accidently!
i made the double salts and found it to be a grey powder. the silver which hadn't dissolved i removed and decided to neutralise (to aid in cleanign it up later) with a half
decomposed rock of CaC2 (CaC2 makes Ca(OH)2 in water). i added the silver and calcium carbide to some water. after a while i decide to fish out the silver which i couldn't
see due to the water turning red for some reason...(impurities in the Cac2 i think). anyways, i was annoyed to find the silver had turned black! i thought this was simply silver
hyrdroxide. i proceeded to ub it with a scourer (the plastic ones on the back of sponges), under a running tap, and there was a bright orange flash and a crack. i have thought
of everything it could be and i have concluded it was Ag2C2 formed from the following reaction:
Ag2O + C2H2 ---> Ag2C2 + H2O
the silver had no doulbe salts on it because it was completely black. so in conclusion, silver acetylide (silver carbide) is very sensitive, to friction and likely other things, double
salts however is not. i have read somewhere that acetylides of unreactive metals are highly sensitive, think it was some explosive compounds list somwhere. anyway, hope
this has helped people some how.
Phoenix April 25th, 2002, 12:26 PM

i made as well silver carbid as leadazid and if you have any possibility to get sodium azid it is a much better choice then silver salts cause it is much more epowerful ( as much
as a match head will be enough )

I don't think this question is worth opening an new thread.
I made a couple of HMTD det.caps which are actually more overpowered sqibs since the HMTD has been pressed in with just a little bt of force - more than just tamping but
sure less than usually required for a "regular" density. The stuff has been put in glass tubes as can be found for perfume samples.
Another "detonator" was made of a plastic syringe with halfway HMTD and the other half excellent pure TNP I am pretty proud of :cool:
all these squibs have been dried for two weeks in (err.. can't remember now how these flakes that suck up moisture from their surroundings) in a small airtight plastic container
and then sealed with hot glue (first a couple of paper tissue layers, mind you).
A drawback or bonus is that all these "squibs" are overloaded by all means. they're fat and filled up to the rim.
In another thread I've read the comment that this actually could be regarded as some sort of mini hand grenade.
What I am worried now:
Is there a possibility that these "Squibs" will sponatneously detonate just like that? I fear for the safety of my family's ears at least. Now I put them in my car <img border="0"
title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> - but I am reluctant of detonating these caps right now.
The one cap with HMTD/TNP has a thin plastic foil between the two layers so the acidity of the TNP wouldn't affect the well washed and neutralized HMTD.
I've also short circuited the wires so that no static charge would affect it.
Any comments are very much welcomed since I am a bit, er, nervous <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

so long as the HMTD is not going to come into contact with the TNP, or the TNP eat the plastic and then come into contact with the HMTD then they should be ok. i don't want
to gaurantee anything but from what you have said they shouldn't go off by themselves or anything, just store in a cool dry place and they should be fine. you seem to know
what your doing, i mean, you have washed and neutralised your HMTD for a start which i know alot of people don't do. they then complain when it blasts half their arm off for
no reason.
that wasn't really on topic but well done for not starting a new thread to ask that.
Rat Bastard April 30th, 2002, 08:12 PM

could you wet the AP/HMTD with isopropol and then compress it?

yes, its good to wet it before its pressed and if you use alchol it will dry mutch faster but itf you use AP it is probaly a good idea to use a solvent that Ap is not soluble in or it
may make bigger, more dangerous crystals
S. Toppholzer May 1st, 2002, 08:21 AM

kingspaz: I was thinking of this HMTD/TNP detonator again and that extra thin foil between the two layers bothered be - so I decided to better detonating it today. Just came
back from the site.
I also had two other detonators filled with HMTD only with me.
These two I blasted first and the noise they made was like a very sharp, loud crack. Finally I blasted off the HMTD/TNP detonator. The explosion was much louder but the
noise was not as sharp as the other caps. Was this maybe due to a lower det. velocity or could that be related to a different casing? The HMTD caps had a glass casing while
the HMTD/TNP cap was made of a long, thin plastic cigarette lighter.
The HMTD caps didn't make any smoke at all, while the HMTD/TNP cap was producing a bit of black smoke. I guess that this was TNP that didn't detonate but burned instead.
Also, when checking for the remains of the cap I found some TNP traces. So I guess the TNP only detonated partialy. Was this because the HMTD wasn't very hard pressed or
because the TNP wasn't very much compressed but tamped in with a pencil?
[ May 01, 2002, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]
Zambosan May 1st, 2002, 03:35 PM

I imagine the partial detonation was due to exactly that; irregularities in the density of the TNP. Also, the black smoke... I have heard that TNT is so oxygen-poor that pure
carbon is produced during detonation. I don't think it would be much of a reach to think that TNP does the same.
Madog555 May 1st, 2002, 04:10 PM

yes, potassium picrate leaves a nice black blast mark of carbon on the table after deflagation(sp?). and sience it is a salt of TNP then i can bet that TNP does similar things
please don't crucify me for this question:
How can I be sure I've loaded the correct density when handling HMDT or TNP?
I KNOW this info has to be somewhere but I cannot locate it.
I mean I know the gram/water method - but is there any other way?
Zambosan May 3rd, 2002, 11:22 AM

Just calculate by volume, right?

oh... ok. Thanks anyways.... Since I am not very good at mathematics, I guess I'll do the water measuring...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > prep of ca rbam i d e p e r o x i d e
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View Full Version : prep of carbamide peroxide
Vegeta June 4th, 2002, 09:27 PM

I h a v e c o m e a c r o s s a substan ce synthesis for carbam i d e p e r o x i d e :
Usin g a mortar and pestle, crush 20g urea into a powde r. Place this in a shallow pyrex dish and add, with stirring, 35m l of a
3 0 % h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e s o l u t i o n . T h e r e s u l t i n g m ixture should have a dough consistency. Stir in 1.5g of powdered gelatine.
Let the m ixture stand for 5 hours, it will solidify, forming the carbam i d e p e r o x i d e . U s e s : I n s m o k e c o m p o s i t i o n s . M i x t u r e s w i t h
s o d i u m dithionite are im pact sensitive.
Carbamide p eroxide CO (NH2)2*H2O2
Properties: W hite crystals or crystalline powder; m elting point (decom p o s e s ) 7 5 - 8 5 C . D e c o m p o s e d b y m oisture and
temperatures about 40C. Soluble in water, alcohol, and ethylene glycol. Solvents such as ether and acetone extract the
h y d r o g e n p e r o x i d e a n d m a y f o r m e x p l o s i v e s s o l u t i o n s . A c t i v e o x y g e n ( m inimum ) 16%.
Uses: Source of water-free hydogen peroxide, bleaching; disinfe ctant; co sm etics; pharmaceuticals; blue print developer;
m odification of starch e s .
Fire hazard: Dangerous.
Madog555 June 5th, 2002, 07:58 PM

this looks kinda cool. fun to burn like yellow po wder, doesnt have m utch recreatio n a l u s e .
Let's keep this on topic. If it's not about carbamide peroxide it shouldn't be in this thread
<sm all>[ June 05, 2002, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</sm all>
Pu239 Stuchtiger June 5th, 2002, 09:39 PM

Carbamide p eroxide is not explosive.
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 0 5 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 8 : 5 4 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : P Y R O 5 0 0 ] < / s m all>
inferno June 12th, 2002, 09:26 AM

How well does it m a k e s m o k e ? I s i t a d ded to ready m a d e s m o k e c o m p s l i k e N H 4 C l is to enhance the perfo rm a n c e ? D o e s i t
burn itself? Can it be used straight with an oxidiser for smoke, or need to be a th ird ingredient?
Alchemist June 12th, 2002, 10:59 AM

Hello all,
Safety data for carbam i d e p e r o x i d e
General
Synonyms: urea compounded with hyd r o g e n p e r o x i d e ( 1 : 1 ) , p e r c a r b a m i d e , u r e a p e r o x i d e , gly-oxide, hydroperit,

hydroperite, hyperol, thenardol [over-the-counter drug]
Molecular form u l a : C H 6 N 2 O 3
CAS No: 123-43-6
EC No:
Physical data
Appearance: white crystals or powder

Melting point: 75 - 85 C ( d e c o m p o s e s )
Boiling point:
Vapour density:
Vapour pressure:
Density (g cm-3): 1.4
Flash point:
Explosion lim its:
Autoignition temperature:
W ater solubility:
Stability
S e v e r e e x p l o s i o n h a z a r d o n e x p o s u r e t o s h o c k o r h e a t . I n c o m patible with strong oxidizing agents, organic

m aterials, reducing agents. May form explosive solutions with ether or propanone.
Toxicology
Skin , eye and respiratory irritant.
Toxicity data
( T h e m e a n i n g of any abbreviations which appear in this section is given here.)
Risk p h r a s e s
( T h e m e a n i n g of any risk phrases which appear in this section is given here.)
R36 R37 R38.
Transport inform ation

Personal protection
Safety glasses.
<sm all>[ June 12, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Alchemist ]</sm all>
BrushFire June 15th, 2002, 10:39 PM

Hey vegeta, ive always been interested in the preperation of unuiqe things involving chem istry such as carbamide peroxide. I'd
like to know where yo u got all this inform ation so I m ay delve in to it a bit more, m a y b e f i n d s o m e o n e w h o h a s m ade it befo re
so i can learn alittle more abo ut its production.
can u post where u fo und all that inform a t i o n ?
Pu239 Stuchtiger June 16th, 2002, 01:52 PM

Ema il m e.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Al powder
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View Full Version : Al powder
krimmie October 6th, 2001, 08:37 PM

If you need it, look towards the Marine industry. It is added to p aint to increase abrasion resistance...It also is said to help
retard fire! Anyway, the brand I bought is "West System " 420 Alum inum Powder...it is as fine as flour and believe m e.......it
reacts with KMNO 4 and S!!!!!!! Very little confinment is needed to wake up my neighbors.
Again, go to your nearest Marine repair shop...they will have it or tell you where to go.
I paid $6.91 for 1 lb.
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y k r i m mie (edited October 07, 2001).]
Alchemist October 6th, 2001, 08:54 PM

Hello,
How much and for what price. Thanks for the info!
CodeMason October 6th, 2001, 10:18 PM

W hen I was young and kewl, I went to a large paint store that doubled as a m arine supply store (it's right on the docks) to
enquire about Al powder. I only knew about the paint grade Al at the time, and I asked fo r it. They said they stopped selling it
due to toxicity, but I should go to an auto store and get it in the form of radiator stop-leak. Maybe they kn ew what it was for,
but just didn't want the responsibility o f aiding som e d u m b k i d d i e b 0 m Ar. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/wink.gif

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP Plasticizer
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View Full Version : AP Plasticizer
Kettch42mk.2 May 29th, 2002, 06:50 PM

In an attempt to make AP crystals easier to work with, I mixed some with PVC glue. After mixing in enough to make the
crystals clump together completely, I let it dry. To test it, I heated .25g in a spoon over a propane torch. The detonation was
extremely loud compared to a similar quantity of straight AP. Anybody have any why this would be?
plasma May 29th, 2002, 06:57 PM

When CTAP is heated on a spoon it melts, as it melts it gets a higher density and the VoD gets higher. Try heating straight
CTAP on a spoon and see if there is any differense.
Madog555 May 29th, 2002, 07:01 PM

wtf?!?! u are heating a mix that has AP in it in a spoon. wtf is it supose to do!?!?!
was that an atemt at an improvised AP putty? u can also use rubber sement. im not sure how it compares to the traditional
AP/SP + acetone and let dry mix which is said to be more powerful than TNT and i can believe it.

the advantage of 'traditional' AP putty with NC is that the binder is also explosive. thus creating a much greater explosive
effect compared to inert binders.

What is the ratios of NC and CTAP in the 'traditional' AP putty

sorry, i haven't a clue! as far as i know you make a paste by dissolving smokeless powder (nitrocellulose) in acetone. to this
paste you add as much AP as will mix with it. then you put it in the container of your choice and let it dry. you are then left with
a rock solid block of explosive which is powerful and easily initiated with fuse.
i think thats how its done, i still haven't tried this yet because it STILL can't manage to nitrate cellulose succesfully.
Kettch42mk.2 May 29th, 2002, 08:12 PM

Plasma, the louder detonation was in comparison to heating straight AP on a spoon.
Madog, This is only my third batch of AP, so I'm still playing around with it-trying to get a feel for its properties. Reading about
other people doing stuff is great, but to really get a sense of how these things work, I need to mess around with them a bit.
(In very small quantities, of course.)
Madog555 May 29th, 2002, 08:13 PM

kingspaz, thats correct. i also cant find ratios. i was thinking about this the other day. ping pong balls work too. nitrostarch will
also work.

Hey guys, I haven't been around here much lately due to all the graduation parties going on along with me now working a lot
more hours. (Not to mention my parents took my lab away until I move out of my house... I guess that means one of these
days I am gonna have to get my happy ass an apartment). Anyways for this 4th of July and going to use the money that I
would have otherwise spent on commercial fireworks to instead work on my old APrc mixes. And about 2 hours ago I just
bought a gallon and a half of 3% H2O2 to be boiled down to 300mL of approximately 27-28% H2O2. I also bought a liter of
acetone and a pint of rc.
Now on my past tests that were conducted a few months ago I never took pictures because I didn't want that kind of thing to
get developed. But now my nextdoor neighbor has a digital camera so I am going to make plenty of visual for you guys.

Helvetica"> When CTAP is heated on a spoon it melts, as it melts it gets a higher density and the VoD gets higher. Try
heating straight CTAP on a spoon and see if there is any differense.
<hr /></blockquote>i think you are a idiot, heating primairy
explosives on a spoon is suicide... (you CAN do it with TNT and other non sensitive HE's)
mrloud May 30th, 2002, 05:31 AM

I was under the impression that heating AP caused it to sublime. At the very least heating is supposed to destroy its explosive
properties. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?
If you took too long heating the AP up in the spoon, this waiting time could affect its explosive properties. I'd like to see the
same experiment performed but instead of heating the AP over a flame, use a fuse or a static electricity spark to cause the
detonation.
[ May 30, 2002, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: mrloud ]

To mr. Evil
The melting would of course be done with an amount of CTAP similar to the quart of a pea. I really don't think this will kill you.
But your are right, primaries should be handled carefully and be used only what it is ment to; explode controlled, far away
from any living creature. :)
And mrloud I can asure that CTAP does explode when heated on a spoon untill it melts. (At least thats what happened when I
tried it with a small amount)
DBSP May 30th, 2002, 04:29 PM

I don't think that the ratio of AP-putty is very important. As long as the AP-putty doesn't fall apart it shuld be fine. One thing
you can do to improve it is to smear a thin layer of NC on the outside to make it waterproof and less sensitive to shock,
friction and spark.
electric emu May 30th, 2002, 11:36 PM

I thougt i saw something that said under melt temp, it will detonate before melting. Im already scared of ap by just moving it.
A.K.A : Dan The Crazed Aussie May 31st, 2002, 04:44 AM

hey fellas.
I heard that u could make a pretty good binder for ap by mixing this in ratio= 80:20 acetone to pipe primer (The red stuff that
smells like crap
0EZ0 May 31st, 2002, 10:31 AM

Helvetica"> I heard that u could make a pretty good binder for ap by mixing this in ratio= 80:20 acetone to pipe primer (The
red stuff that smells like crap <hr /></blockquote>First of all PVC Pipe
Primer Fluid , is MEK(Methyl Ethyl Ketone) with a dye. It has the consistency of water, but smells nothing like it.
What i think you are referring to is PVC Pipe Cement/Glue . It contains roughly 50-70% MEK with some type of soluble plastic.
It is a thick goo, with quite a nasty odour.
Now reading above the method of binding AP with PVC Pipe Glue is already mentioned. As for the ratios of each component,
they were not.
To bind the AP with PVC Pipe Glue, use as little as is needed to bind it. Overdoing it will result in poor performance due to the
PVC Pipe Glue being non-energetic, unlike Nitro Cellulose which is an energetic binder.
Anyone know how safe AP/PVC Glue would be, as compared to AP/NC?
NoltaiR May 31st, 2002, 03:57 PM

Now this is just a theory that will need some serious testing to prove... but any glue labeled 'extremely flammable' may serve
as a good binder for crystalline type explosives such as AP.
kingspaz May 31st, 2002, 05:45 PM

NoltaiR, what exactly do you mean? do you mean the glue labelled 'extremely flammable' will be a more energetic binder? IF
thats what your on about then it make balls all difference how flammable it is since AP is oxygen defficient and also the
flamability is caused by the solvent not the glue.
NoltaiR June 1st, 2002, 02:34 AM

The statement came from results that I have had while testing non-flammable glues as binders (I.E. woodglue, white school
glue) which led to my AP never detonating and rather just making a fireball.
Yet every glue that I have tested it with and found to be satisfactory has been flammable.

i don't think that has anything to do with the flamibility of the glue but more the sort of binder it is. the flammable stuff will
use flammable solvents which are useful for dissolving plastic like binders. PVA for example is a shit glue which is flexible and
rubbery even when dry. not hard such as other more plasitc glues.
does that make sense?....i'm not that good at explaining...
NoltaiR June 1st, 2002, 09:47 PM

Well the main problem that I should say that I have with APrc is making sure that it is completely dry, otherwise it will simply
make a fireball (similar to wet AP). But just because the APrc looks dry doesn't mean it is.. I usually just have to wait until the
outside of the clumps start getting sticky, because that means that the AP has completely dried and started to vaporize,
leaving rc behind.
Anyways I set off a few 25g charges today.. nothing special, just blowing up fallen trees that have rotted.
NoltaiR June 3rd, 2002, 12:14 AM
A thought came to me earlier today while rereading these posts.
As explained, the APrc is not very moldable; in fact, when you bend it too much it just breaks off into smaller chunks (that
may be squeezed back together if you so choose). But I was thinking that because the APrc chunks are sticky, they could be
placed onto vertical structures for deployment without something else to hold it there. Just stick a fuse in and ignite.
kingspaz June 3rd, 2002, 07:06 PM

rc, i think the bezoylperoxide is used as a source of radicals (O in this case) in polymerising the glue or whatever it does to
cure it.
Zambosan June 4th, 2002, 04:07 PM

Pretty close; the glue is already a fluid polymer, and the oxygen radicals cross-link it into a macromolecule.

Clear nailpolishes are made of nitrocellulose and butyl acetate, with smaller amounts of a few other things (On one of my
sisters at least, they may vary).
Add some AP to the nailpolish, mold it into a tube or something, and stick a fuse of some kind in, cant AP/NC reach DDT when
ignited by fuse? Still have to be careful with it, but its probably safer than straight AP in a tube.
FMShadow June 5th, 2002, 02:18 PM

apropos ap putty:
how insensitive is ap putty? can it be thrown against a wall without detonating? cause... i would like to have some ap or ap
putty or ap whatever that is not so sensitive...
i mean i dont wanna blow my hands away while trying to make a pipebomb :D

FMShadow, AP putty is just as sensitive as AP is to shock and impact because its mostly AP! it is less sensitive to friction
because the crystals are not free to move and scrape and rub against things.
also if you make pipe bombs with AP you deserve losing your hands for being so dumb.....use as little AP as possible to
initiate a secondary.
xtreme June 5th, 2002, 05:53 PM

I have mixed AP with vaseline.
Nothing happend when I hit this with a hammer (perhaps with big hammer. It burns much more slowly than normal AP. It
burns like BP.
I haven't checked what a blastingcap will do.....perhaps next.
First I have to make new AP. I have detonated my 3...4 weeks old AP today because I'am not happy with old AP in my
bedroom :)

FMShadow
Why you use pipe (metal tube) for AP-bombs?

AP detonated by itself. It is not BP that must be "packed" to give a boom. With metalpipe you can't look (if you want to be
safe)to your detonation or only from a great distance. I use PVC (PolyVinylChloride) pipe (plastic) for just to be safe for direct
fire or something. You can detonated HE in a plasticbag with a blastingcap in it ! So why take the risk for metal fragments in
your or somebody else body?!

FMShadow: I think you should read a bit more about explosives before you ask stuff like that. I might be wrong but from what
you said about pipe bombs, i think youre lacking a bit, i apologise if im wrong though.
A low explosive (LE) is a fuel/oxidiser mix, and when ignited (by flame, heat, friction, and sometimes shock) they burn very
fast, such as blackpowder. Fireworks mixtures are low explosives. They are a homogenous mixture of an oxidiser (various
nitrates, potassium/sodium chlorate, potassium perchlorate, potassium permanganate are the main ones) and a fuel (sulfur,
charcoal, fine metal powders like Al, Mg, Zn etc)
A high explosive is a single chemical, not a mix. It is a molecule, that when exposed to a shock (from another HE, hammer
blow etc) breaks apart, releasing the energy bonding it's atoms together. This energy comes out as heat, a shockwave, sound
and light. Whether in a pipe or not, a HE will make a nice boom. The energy released is the sound, not the sudden burning of
it. Some HE's are more sensitive than others, eg nitrogen triiodide (touch powder,
NH3.NI3 is obviously touch sensitive, and will detonate from the shock of a feather
being dropped on it. Ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) is almost impossible to
detonate without a sensitiser, like nitromethane, or commonly just oil (then called ANFO - ammonium nitrate fertilizer and oil),
in which case it is still very hard to detonate.
There are two types of HE, primary explosives, and secondary explosives. Primary explosives are much more sensitive, some
examples are AP, Mercury Fulminate, and nitrogen triiodide, though it is not used for anything more than demonstrations
because it is too sensitive. Secondaries generally need the shock of another HE to detonate, such as Ammonium nitrate,
trinitrotoluene (TNT) and Sodium chlorate, and often a sensitiser, such as oil for AN and vaseline for SC.
That is where the "detonator" or blasting cap comes into use. It is usually an initiator LE, such as blackpowder, with a fuse into
it, which, when ignited, suddenly compresses and detonates the primary, which is often followed by a secondary, in (usually) a
small metal tube. The primary/secondary detonating releases a shock wave through the main charge of a secondary
explosives, which then detonates.
Most HE's have a DDT point, or Deflagration to Detonation Transition, where, when the HE is ignited by flame or spark, it burns
very quickly, like BP, then turns into detonation. This all happens very quickly though, and you cant really "see" if its
deflagrating or detonating, though the sound and crater etc will usually tell you. Some HE's are also LE's, such as guncotton, or
nitrocellulose. If ignited by flame, it burns very quickly. If shocked, it detonates. Most primaries burn very well with a small
fireball when ignited in the open, but some when confined will reach the DDT point.
Im sorry if you knew all this, but whether you use a metal pipe or a plastic pen or film canister, your AP putty will still make a
nice bang.
[ June 17, 2002, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]

one last thing, ANFO actually stands for ammonium nitrate fuel oil.
Omogen June 11th, 2002, 09:35 AM

the formula with AP+SP and acetone...does the ap get less sensitive also?
Hmmmm, APputty more powerfull than TNT? nae i dont really believe that but it can be...
Btw there was a guy who posted something about his own produced plastic explosive which he wanted to sell here...i think he
named it to HARDEX or something...did someone get the formula of him?
The videos on his site were pretty amazing
sry for my english im from sweden and that kinda explains alot
DBSP June 11th, 2002, 09:49 AM

Does it?, my english is just fine. How old are you btw?
The AP putty seemes to be a little less sensitive, at least when talking about friction.
[ June 11, 2002, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: DBSP ]

im 17 and live in Stockholm
i always say so so noone will say that my english sucks
xoo1246 June 11th, 2002, 11:42 AM

Keep on typing/reading and your english will improve.
From Sweden too.

ok, this is me trying to get it back on topic...
i think the reason AP putty is less sensitive to friction is because each AP crystal has a thin layer of NC over it protecting it from
being rubbed by other crystals and other objects. also the crystals are held in fixed positions so they cannot move around and
scrape on each other or anything else. i can't think of any other reasons...i am not speaking from experience here as i STILL
haven't had success with NC :confused:
Rat Bastard June 17th, 2002, 01:22 AM

Helvetica"> kingspaz, thats correct. i also cant find ratios. i was thinking about this the other day. ping pong balls work too.
nitrostarch will also work.
<hr /></blockquote>Same here. I have searched everywhere and I
can't find a damn ap putty ratio. I keep on seeing this:
Helvetica">Pour the required amount of acetone peroxide into a bowl, than slowly add the paste until the mixture has a
moldable density than remove. <hr /></blockquote>How the hell are
we supposed to know what the "required amount" is?!?!
:mad:
ALENGOSVIG1 June 17th, 2002, 02:05 AM

The ratio of AP to NC doesnt really matter. If the putty is crumbly, then you added too much AP. In this case, add a little more
NC paste. If its sticky and gooey then you didnt add enough AP. I cant believe im explaning this. It just seems so obvious to
me.
If you cant figure out how to make AP putty then do yourself a favour and stay away from explosives. You'll live longer. <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
[ June 17, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
Rat Bastard June 17th, 2002, 08:38 PM

Helvetica"> I cant believe im explaning this. It just seems so obvious to me. <hr /></blockquote>We are not psycic and know every ratio and amount.
I have made HMTD and AP many times without error, it's just that the AP putty instructions were too damn vague.
Vagueness can nickname you "stumpy" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Sparky June 26th, 2002, 03:54 PM

I was reading a book that mentioned styrene-butadiene rubber as being used as chewing gum. It might not be as powerful as
NC since it is not energetic but NC putty would dry out wouldn't it?
Styrene butadiene would keep its physical properties for storage, you would have to use HMTD instead of AP if you wanted to
store it of course. I found styrene-butadiene on the internet sold as Glaziers Choice mirror adhesive GC 2010. I think a
solvent for it is naphtha. You can also get styrene-butadiene from make your own bubble gum kits I guess. You could
probably either dissolve it in naphta and then add the explosive or knead the explosive into non dissolved rubber. I'm not
sure if this would work but if it did the putty would have excellent physical properties.
This product is also used in car tires but it is vulcanized, so not very useful in that form.
electric emu July 7th, 2002, 05:41 PM

I just made some ap/sp putty today but its drying, also i didnt hear anyone say rocket fuel binders like r45.

Sparky, NC/AP putty is supposed to dry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> you mold it over or in whatever
you want, put a fuse in and let it dry. once its dry you have a solid block of explosive in the shape you molded it too. then you
light the fuse and run :D

I had a little problem drying, i put mine in half of an easter egg shell and only the top dried and the bottom stayed wet so i
took it out the egg shell and it worked well and mine looked like wood when it was dry.
[ July 08, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
Purple Fire July 10th, 2002, 04:10 AM

I make most of my AP into putty by mixing it with smokeless paste. It comes out as a fairly solid greenish stuff that will snap
if you drop it. It is fairly insensitive to friction, and will detonate unconfined from a fuse. The only problem is that my visco
occasionally goes out when it hits the putty, I have no idea why. As far as I can see, there is no change, or maybe a slight
increase in the det. velocity of the putty. Fun to play with none the less :D

If the fuse fails where it meets the putty, then it's probably that the solvent in the putty has dissolved the laquer on the fuse
and screwed around the powder train.

Thats what it did to my fuse and it started to unravel but it still burned.
[ July 10, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
marky July 19th, 2002, 09:50 PM

If you want some Ap prober putty the go and buy ping-pong balls they are made with NC so all you have to do is disolve them
in acetone and
wola there you have it NC putty all you have to do is put in some Ap and then let it dry with some fuse in it ...
Hope that helps people

the reason ping pong balls are unfavourable is because they also contain champhor which is non energetic and also the NC
used in the balls has a low nitrogen content so is now were near as effective as smokeless powder.
marky July 21st, 2002, 11:23 PM

What about the people that cant get there hands on NC powder so they use ping-pong balls???
It still works it just sometimes doesent fully detonate...

:rolleyes: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Yeah, that's what generally everyone does...
ALENGOSVIG1 July 22nd, 2002, 12:08 AM

Helvetica"> What about the people that cant get there hands on NC powder so they use ping-pong balls??? <hr /></
blockquote>Thats never happened to me. It ALWAYS fully detonates. My
guesse is that your putty wasnt fully dried. It may have been dried on the outside, but below the surface it was most likely still
wet.
Or mabe your using way to much NC and not enough AP. Although i dont think this is the case becuase for it to not fully
detonate it'd have to a thick paste of NC with barely any AP content. But thick paste isnt putty so im guessing (hoping) thats
not the problem.
marky July 22nd, 2002, 07:30 AM

no im telling other peoples stories about the not fully det thing.
Mick July 22nd, 2002, 11:33 AM

[quote[Sparky, NC/AP putty is supposed to dry you mold it over or in whatever you want, put a fuse in and let it dry. once its
dry you have a solid block of explosive in the shape you molded it too. then you light the fuse and run
[/quote]
just a word of warning when lighting APP. make sure all of the APP is covered by something(like a couple of layers of tape).
you shouldn't be able to see any of the APP.
if your using a fuse(eg. a sparkler) all it takes is 1 spark to set the hole thing off.
altho this seems pretty obvious to most people, i just thought i might post it just in case someone gets the idea that because
its putty it doesn't matter (hey, you never know with all the newb's around here)
i left a tiny little sqaure of APP visable(1mm x 1mm). i had enough fuse for atleast 60seconds to run away. i lit it, then started
running, and after 10 seconds it went off. could have been shitloads worse.
binary mz July 29th, 2002, 03:21 AM

im new to ctap (5 months in to it) i never like being around or using it when its dry, so ive been doing some expiriements
lookin for good/cheap ways to de-sensitize ap. i cant get smokeless powder anywhere. the only place that sells powder here is
wal-mart and they only sell single base pyrodex. real slow stuff. but, i've been mixing it with nail harder with very good results.
i'll usually just get a wet piece about the size of a grape and put it on a piece of carboard and flatten it out and add nail
hardner and mix with the wooden end of a match. real thick so it drys fast but not too much so theres extra dry ap
everywhere. but, after its dry i'll put some home made fuse (cotton string dipped in pyrodex and water, dried, and covered with
teflon pipe tape) and cover it all with some duct tape. first time i did this i was expecting it to flare up real fast so i put it on
the end of a wooden picnic bench, lit it, and stepped back about 5 feet. damn. my past experience was just bp and flash. so,
yah, this scared the hell out of me. it blew a nice chunk of the corner and left a weird smell in the air. i plan to try out
pingpong balls, rubber cement, and pvc glue. what else does everyone mix it with ? any one use wet ap ? how does everyone
use it? just dry ap lightly packed in to a tube? im to scared to do that. i always clean it and dip it in bicarb solution and never
had problems with it, then again i treat it like nitroglycerin...

haha, thats funny since AP is actually more sensitive than NG. the sensitivity of NG is often over eggagerated. so long as you
wash and neutralise it well and avoid scrapes and heat you should be ok. but if your not prepared to take the consequences if
it goes off when you don't expect it to (which peroxides are prone to) then don't play with it.
megalomania July 30th, 2002, 02:43 AM

Lets call it TCAP or just AP shall we. Unless anyone can offer a published source that calls it CTAP, I have a published source
that calls it TCAP, but acetone peroxide is a more acceptable name since technically you get a mixture of the tricyclo, dicyclo
and non-cyclic poly peroxides. Everyone does remember the polyperoxide part right?
Darkbloodpriest December 5th, 2002, 07:42 PM

Please excuse what seems to be a lack of experience(it only seems that way). I am only posting this to prove a point.
I have seen a experiment where a certain person(who shall remain anonymous) had made a fairly unstable form of ap, and
then mxing it with plain old rubber cement as a plasticiser.
The steps were:
1. A household glass of a 3 cup capacity was filled with

approximately one and a half cups of high strength acetone.
2. Approx one cup of baquacil 30% hydrogen peroxide was poured
into the cup with the acetone.
3. The mixture was stirred for 1 minute.
4. Approx 60 drops of 27% sulfuric acid were added to the mixture
(while stirring the mixture) over a 10 minute period.
5. The glass was put into a refridgerator and left to sit
undisturbed for 48 hours.
6. The mixture was filtered and simultaneously washed.
7. The mixture was left to dry for 10 minutes at room temperature.
8. The ap crystals(about 20 grams) were added to their own
volume of rubber cement in a casting container(the bottom
of a plastic coke bottle).
9. After sitting for 5 minutes, a oily liquid(toluene?)had
formed on top of the mixture and was subsequently poured off.
10. The last step was repeated 3 more times over a 2 hour period.
11. The mixture was left to sit in it's casting container for
12 hours.
12. The mixture was removed from the container and left to sit in the corner of the persons' basement.
13. Over the course of 3 months the mixture was subjected to temperatures ranging from 95 degrees fahrenheit down to 25
degrees fahrenheit.
There the mixture remains.

Any questions of a intelligent nature?
(I hope I don't get a kewl roasting for posting this one...)
----------------------------------
To live in the past is to die in the present.
blindreeper December 5th, 2002, 08:18 PM

I was having a thought about binding AP. Why not use MEKP? It's easy to make. The mix of AP and MEKP, would be less
sensative *I think*, increased density, thus potentially higher VoD, all organic peroxides, you could use it straight away
because the MEKP is explosive and you wouldn't have to wait for it to dry and it would be easy, fast and cheap. Well thats my
2 cents. Once again am I talking through my ass?
NoltaiR December 5th, 2002, 10:09 PM

First of all, the spelling of 'would' in the sig of the previous poster should be wood.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Anyways onto a more serious note; a variable that is greatly proportionate to the resulting VoD and stability, is the strength of
the bonds within and between the molecules that make up the explosive. These bonds may be natural such as a the way that
there are differing bonds of acetone peroxide (dimeric and trimeric being the most common but monomeric exists in a small
amounts in a more unstable and volatile state as well as tetrameric which is formed when the normal reagent mixture for
acetone peroxide is supplied with a quantity of SnCl --tin chloride).
Natural bonds exist between the molecules as well and that is caused by the way the explosive is crystallized during synthesis
and when an explosive is cast (which is actually the most favorable of all forms of bonding because the explosive reaches its
maximum density).
Artificial bonds are used to take most natural bonds to the next level while not facing as much danger as one would incur when
attempting to cast an explosive. Artificial bonding agents such as glue make the molecules lock fairly tightly together while at
the same time releasing much of the microscopic airpockets within an otherwise powdered explosive that accounts for a
compound having a poor density.
TheBear December 8th, 2002, 03:10 PM

Helvetica">
8. The ap crystals(about 20 grams) were added to their own
volume of rubber cement in a casting container(the bottom
of a plastic coke bottle).
9. After sitting for 5 minutes, a oily liquid(toluene?)had
formed on top of the mixture and was subsequently poured off.
<hr /></blockquote>Depending on how much toluene you prored off
you lost some AP there (AP being soulable in toluene).
NoltaiR December 8th, 2002, 11:16 PM

First off if there was ANY moisture in the AP than that is what made up most of the oily mixture (rubber cement drives water
out of AP at an incredible rate.. especially if the AP has just been strained to complete the synthesis; enough rubber cement
to cover it will result in a nice little puddle of water flowing out of it). There will be some toluene in runaway but depending on
how liquidy the runaway is a good way to determine about how much water content there was (toluene will actually be the have
a lesser density of .866 g/mL as opposed to water's approximately 1g/mL).
Also bear is correct in saying AP.. this will become apparent, but due to the extra mass that the rubber cement adds to it you
really don't have much to lose. Also a good thing to remember is always wait a minimum of 3 days before using the APrc
because although it may look dry, the smallest amount of moisture can severly hurt its performance (even to the point that
the APrc won't detonate if you are testing it unconfined).
An added chemical that I believe to aid in the performance of the APrc is n-heptane which is in elmer's brand rubber cement.
Darkbloodpriest December 10th, 2002, 10:04 PM

I just realized a critical(maybe) error in my previous post...
Substitute every instance of rubber cement for the words "contact cement."
Sorry for any confusion or inconvenience(lost limbs etc.) this may have caused.
----------------------------------------
To live in the past is to die in the present.
[ December 10, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Darkbloodpriest ]
Keyser Soze December 11th, 2002, 01:19 PM
Darkbloodpriest, did you really only get 20 grams of AP? Or is that all you added to the contact cement? Because 20 grams
seems like a small yield for 1 cup of 30% H202 and 1.5 cups of Acetone. I have tried APrc a number of times but for me it
takes a long time to dry fully.
[ December 11, 2002, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Keyser Soze ]
Syanide December 11th, 2002, 07:58 PM

A friend of mine has recently made AP with similar amounts as Darkbloodpriest.
He added approximately 1.5 cups acetone and 1.5 cups H2O2 at 35% along with 5 ml of muriatic acid (HCL) and he got well
over 125 grams <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . I know this because he filled an old container of KNO3
with the AP.
I agree with Keyser Soze, 20g seems like a small yield.

I recently had a dream about setting off AP putty. I got to say AP putty is stronger then stright AP. In my dream I molded Ap
into a irregular shaped cast weighing 4 grams, when buried 15cm then detonated a loud boom, nice shockwave, and small dirt
chunks flying 15 feet high. The second one which was molded into a cube 1cm X 1cm weighing 1.4 grams was also buried 15
cm below the earth, below that a soda bottle, it was really supriseing the damage done to the soda bottle. The same test was
performed using stright AP, 2 grams of it, the damage much less, the explosion bearly noticeable, and shockwave much
weaker.
THErAPIST June 27th, 2003, 06:06 AM

Wow.. This is one really old topic to be bringing back up... I just re-read this whole thread and noticed that noone suggested
the use of wax. I am actually going to be setting off a 30g charge today on a bouy(sp?) thats in the river that I live near.
Anyone ever seen that really oily candle wax? It's a really soft stuff, and if you hold it in your hand, your hand will get oily.
Take some of this wax and mix it with as much AP as it will hold and still be somewhat moldable. It gets really soft in warm
weather(that should be a given) and the opposite in cold weather. To use it, you just hold it in your hand for a second so that
it gets soft and then you press it onto whatever you want it on. Then just lay a blasting cap on it or press one sidewys into it
and lite the fuse. When it detonates it gives off a little smoke from the wax that was boiled/ vaporised but its still pretty
powerful. I'd also like to say that if you press it onto walls and such it will stick. Just figured I'd throw in the wax plasticiser idea
though.
Tri... How did you use 2g of ap? Was it pressed into a cap or what? If that's the case, there probably wasn't as much damage
done to the bottle since there was MUCH less explosive actually near the botte to do any damage to it...
Trinitrotoluene July 3rd, 2003, 01:13 AM

In my dream it was pressed into a 4mm plastic drinking straw using a matchstick, well 4 of them, they were taped togeather
with one of them fuse inserted.
IMO I think AP putty should be coated with a layer of nitrocellulose, since I beleave that there are AP crystals sticking out of
the cast and moving it generates friction, it can be easily prevented by adding a layer of coating.
knowledgehungry July 3rd, 2003, 12:08 PM

Therapist your talking about those citroneela style candles right? the ones that come in a can for keeping mosquitos away? It
is always best to use another explosive as a binder IMHO, it makes it more powerful. Has anyone done any experiments using
AP NC and NG? That would be interesting to see, im not sure what advantages there would be over NC and NG save using less
NG but it was just an idea.
matjaz January 1st, 2004, 11:42 AM

I just dreamt of making some APrc. (I think that glue was rc, anyway... It's called universal glue or caoutchouc glue, it's yellow,
consistence of honey, smells like petrol and burns. The bond remains flexible when dry. Is that the thing?)
Approx. equal proportions by volume of dry AP and this RC were mixed to a pale-yellowish dough. At first it would stick to
fingers, but after kneading it well, it stopped sticking. After 15 hours, it still doesn't sweat any liquids and I don't think it will.
Stored in a film canister it remains pliable, but is, surprisingly, getting a bit harder anyway despite airtight storage.
It ignites readily from flame or energized steel wool. The critical ball diameter for unconfined detonation is at 2-3mm (=1/
10"). Smaller balls just flare, bigger ones always detonate.
I'm going to dream one more thing with this material:

I'll make a few identical blasting caps in tiny electrolytical capacitor cases, ignited electrically. Half of them will be stored at
room temperature, the other half in the freezer at 4C. Then every week or two, I'll detonate one of each. (I might do it on a
piece of thin alluminum sheeting each time and measure the deformation from the blast. Any other ideas?) Will post the
results here.
tom haggen January 3rd, 2004, 06:28 PM

I will try to post some AP putty pics when I can figure out how
tom haggen January 3rd, 2004, 06:31 PM

Sorry about post whoring, but my first post was a quick post and I was unable to upload any pics. anyway heres a pic.
xyz January 4th, 2004, 03:09 AM
Is there some sort of coating on those?
Otherwise it looks like the sparks from the fuse could set off the AP putty as soon as you lit the fuse.
blindreeper January 4th, 2004, 06:30 AM

I was thinking the exact same thing! About the picture though, you could have cropped it a massive amount, we only need to
see the AP putty not the desk or whatnot that it is resting on!
Mr. Yuck January 4th, 2004, 11:14 AM

My AP putty has the exact same color as tom haggen's. I usually form mine into a block, 1/2 high, 3in. long, and 2in. wide. I
leave a hole for a small cap. Then it is coated in many layers of NC, and then a final coating of rubber. The rubber I use is
intended for coating handles of tools, such as pliers. I have one concern with drying though. Regular DBNC laquer cracks as it
solidifies. If any cracks occur in the drying process whle AP is present, I believe that the stress and or friction may cause
detonation. So one tip, when your form yours, make sure it has a large surface area for your solvent to evaporate. If it is
casted in a can or some other cylindrical that is reasonably large, be careful. To be safe when drying any of the charges, do it
outside.
tom haggen January 4th, 2004, 01:54 PM

well its under 640X480 pixels and I was under the impression that was an acceptable size. I'm definetly rethinking my method
of ignition.

well its under 640X480 pixels and I was under the impression that was an acceptable size. That size would be acceptable if
those 640 x 480 pixels were occupied by something of interest, and that does only apply to less than 50% of your image. I
don't understand the argumentation that one doesn't need to crop an image when at lest the half of it is useless just because
its overall size is still acceptable... Crop it next time, okay? It would have been less work for you than it was for me to type up
this post.

I will indeed crop more next time. sorry about that.

Well I ended up gluing those 2 balls together and using a longer fuse. It was a somewhat strong detonation, but I think I
have made bigger booms before. Its hard to say though cause I plugged my ears. I definetly felt a nice little shock wave. I
was standing with in a 15 foot radius. next time i make these things I'm going to coat them in some master plumer abs black
cement. After the acetone is done evaporating from thier insides of course. That way there will be no AP exposed.
Jimmybooyah February 16th, 2004, 01:31 AM

I've been thinking alot about APP lately and have had some questions about the possibility of increasing the power. Has
anyone tried adding fine meshed Al, or somthing like AN to the mix. I dont know if Al would help, although it seems to be
added to alot of explosvies to provide hot spots or somthing like that, and I read somwhere that AP is oxygen deprived. The
last few detonations I have seen have had alot of smoke with them, I dont know if its cause by the SP, or if it is unburned fuel
in need of more oxygen. Any ideas?
U.S.M.C-Man March 8th, 2004, 02:31 PM

Sorry I am not knowledgable on explosive making, I am mostly used to firearms/gun smithing. What is AP and where can it
be obtaind? Please let me know. Thanks!
nuclearattack March 8th, 2004, 06:14 PM

To Jimmybooya:
adding Al powder will surely increase the output power. Al reacts during the detonation increasing the temperature, this means
more output pressure/more power. This is why Al is added to a lot of explosives! However i noticed that adding ammonium
nitrate powder is the best choice for AP putty. As you said AP is oxigen deprived and AN has a lot of oxigen to release during
the reaction. Only one note:if you don't want to ignite your putty with a detonator, don't add too AN or the putty will become a
little insensitive to a fuse.
wrench352 March 8th, 2004, 09:14 PM

USMC MAN, First read the rules,I would have done more searching.AP stands for acetone peroxide as opposed to
say,ammoninum perchlorate.UTFSE.
U.S.M.C-Man March 9th, 2004, 02:05 AM

USMC MAN, First read the rules,I would have done more searching.AP stands for acetone peroxide as opposed to
say,ammoninum perchlorate.UTFSE.
Sorry, I guess I did not look hard enough, everythig I was finding only called it AP.
- U.S.M.C-Man
------------------------------------
Exercise: How many rule violations do we see here? Banned!
Rhadon
thrall March 11th, 2004, 03:41 AM

Though it has been covered in the fourum in older threads if one searches, I've tried this thing and it worked fine. I used
chewed chewing gum for plstisizing AP. I first tested the sesitivity of the stuff by hammer and kneaded small protions of AP
with a chewed chewing gum by hands and it was great. I should say the perfact plastic explosive I've made. Same method was
used for HMTD and again with similer results.
tom haggen March 12th, 2004, 08:36 PM

I had some detonaters made out of single base smokeless powder and AP. I put one in a two liter and shreded it to pieces. If
I can upload an mpeg4 file I will post the footage....well nevermind the limit for my file is 500 measly kilobytes and my file is
1.92mb. mabey i will try and convert it to a giff. although I figured mpeg4 would work good
Sonny Jim March 16th, 2004, 01:25 PM

Today I set off 5g of AP putty I made. 1g of NC was added to acetone and 4g of AP was mixed well in. The mix formed a white
paste, that was quite thick. It would roll off a spoon but take a while to start flowing. The putty was allowed to dry for 18 hours,
forming at the end a little lump of material that, although solid and able to hold shape, was still manipulateable a little bit.
Here it is:
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8262217
A fuse was inserted and lit. It detonated with a nice bang and put an appreciable dent in the metal sheet it was taped to. It
was an aluminium sheet, with quite a bit of give in it that will have absorbed some of the force.
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=8262216
I dont think the putty was completely dry. I couldnt be arsed to wait any longer. Next time though I will give a longer drying
time and see if it makes much difference. The NC I nitrated myself, cotton pads.
Here's a little movie of the putty going off.
http://angry_jack.tripod.com/puttyshort.wmv
I'll film the next few putty tests I do also to compare.
Tom, if you want I will host the file for you.
Myrol March 17th, 2004, 09:13 AM

Three days ago i plasticised one tablespoon of a 50/50 mix Acetoneperoxide and Potassiumnitrate with Vaseline and some
thick Petroleum! The mix is yellow and relatively good plastic but i think i used to much plasticizer! I will see if it works to set it
off but around 25% Plasticizer should kill all Energetic work...probably....? Is there a good way to plasticise AP without NC?
Polyisobutylen out of Chewinggums or Vaseline and some Oil should work! The only thing you must lokking for is to use not
more than 15% Plasticiser because the lack of Oxygen in pure AP is high, but with plasticiser......oh god..

Ya thats great sonny jim I will emailed you the file. On a side note I had to copy and paste your link in order to view the video
clip. Here's a still frame of the clip that sonny jim will be hosting. It's pretty bright does anyone think that this detonater
deflagrated and only partially detonated?
Sonny Jim March 17th, 2004, 07:11 PM

I've not noticed any light output from an AP detonation. As you saw in my video the explosion just went off without any flash
at all. I think that part of your putty deflagerated causing detonation to the rest. A fireball that size would be made by a really
small amount of putty deflagerating, smaller than your putty balls in the pics I reckon.
How was the noise, was it a pop or a bang?

Ya those first pics of putty I posted a while ago detonated with out any light out put. I think that still frame is at the exact
moment when the explosion is transitioning from deflagrating to detonation, . As for the bang I mailed you the file check your
mail and post it that would be very cool.
me234 March 25th, 2004, 02:29 AM

What's that little circle surrounding it? Is that just something on the ground or what? Shock wave? Doubt it myself 'cause if the
picture was taken long enough after the det went off then the shock wave should be long gone, unless it's like you said and
burnt into detonation and the pic was taken as the transformation occured, or slightly afterwards? look closely to the left of the
flame.
tom haggen April 4th, 2004, 12:51 AM

No i'm a fucking idiot. I remembered after posting this that my friend was sitting in a chair right there. When I moved it there
was a ring imprinted in the carpet. I guess my detonator just deflagrated quit a bit before transitioning into detonation.
Hang-Man April 4th, 2004, 12:04 PM
<a Href=http://hangthearmsdealer.tripod.com/ap.wmv>Click Here</a> to see a street sign getting raped by some AP putty. It
was about 4 or 5 grams iirc mixed with melted ping-pong ball. The street sign is bent to hell.
Edit: Seems tripod dosn't like remote loading. when you get to the error page just put the address
"hangthearmsdealer.tripod.com/ap.wmv" in the URL and it seems to work.
Arthis April 5th, 2004, 09:43 AM

Hello. Matjaz, maybe your universal glue still continued to dry while in an airtight container because of the mix with AP. I mean
it can be both due to small air bubbles that remained inside because of the cristals, and to AP itself, or unwashed acid, that
may cause solidification of the glue.
I would be using some solvent to dilute a little the glue, fill the bubbles (more liquid means less bubbles) , let it partially dry
until you get the right flexibility, then store.
Ah, and maybe the canister wasn't fully filled, so the is air remaining inside that causes further strenghtening of the putty.
matjaz April 5th, 2004, 12:28 PM

Arthis,
I think this glue is just rubber dissolved in some petrol cocktail. So getting dry is not a chemical reaction with the air (bubbles)
here... I think it must be all due to solvent evaporation.
I settled with the thought that the solvent simply escapes the canister. They are not very airtight and I tried with just a few
drops of gasoline in a similar canister. They disappear in a matter of days, so that must be it.
Your're right, it wasn't full of putty. I don't feel like handling a 20g piece of a primary. :-) That's a good idea, to redissolve,
harden a bit and then pack airtight.
I still store some of those tiny dets I was refering to in the same post. The stuff seems very stable (in terms of gradual loss
of power, not in terms of safety, that is). I'll post some intermediate data so that you don't all have to wait a couple more
months till the end of testing period. Stay tuned... :)
matjaz April 10th, 2004, 07:34 PM

Let me tell you about this very vivid dream I had.
A batch of tiny detonators was made in the beginning of January. Electrolytic capacitor pots (5mm outer diameter, 6mm long)
were filled with 30mg of APrc each and left open for two days for the rc to dry a bit. Each was then fitted with a steelwool electric
igniter and sealed with epoxy glue, see figure 1, left.
The first sample was tested after one day, placed in an aluminum can of a tealight candle as seen on the right side of Fig. 1.
The can got a dent when detonated (figure 2, left). The rest of the caps were stored, some of them in the freezer, some at
room temperature. They were detonated at different times, each in the same geometry with a fresh tealight can as the witness
plate. You can see the results in the attached photo.
There's no significant difference between room storage and cold storage. But there definitely is a trend with storage time. The
ripe ones are way more brisant. The last pair of witness cans was almost torn apart. The great thing is that on this time scale
AP decomposition obviously isn't a problem here.
Rubber cement getting harder (increasing the VOD)? Or, less likely, some chemistry going on in there... Who knows, but after
a decade or two, one of these babies may be able to put down a wall. ;)
Jimmybooyah April 15th, 2004, 05:31 PM

The first time I ever thought about APP it was made using Single base powder because it was the cheapest stuff I could buy.
When mixed with equal parts AP and SP and enough acetone to make it wet, it had a nice solid consistancy, you could ball it
up and it would hold to that shape. Unfortuanly though when it detonated it had alot of smoke, so the next logical step was to
use DBSP. When this DBSP, its the cheapest stuff around again, is mixed 1 to 1 with AP and acetone is added it forms a goo,
that just fills any container you put it in. Cardboard tubes work well, they allow for the acetone to be soaked up into the tube
and then evaporate off, usually takes about 5 days to be really dry. The smoke problem has cured itself, but for some reason
when a tube is packed full, 5 days later it has half that volume of solid a problem that did not occur with SBSP. I'm thinking
next time mix 1 to 1 DB and SP, and maybe that will make a nicer consistancy and not the weird volume flux. Any idea on
where the stuff is going? I was amazed, it isnt like this is just an air pocket that is getting filled in, this is like an 1/8 of a lb
dissappearing. Hope this post wasnt too long.
Boomer April 16th, 2004, 06:25 AM

Maybe the acetone dissolved the NG out of the DBSP, and it soaked into the cardboard?
You are using too much binder BTW, normally you liquify the SP with acetone and knead as much AP in as possible (>3 parts
for 1 part SP).
Be carefull with the kneading, there have been several detonations during mixing (here and on 2 other forums), some costing
fingers! Better make a less sensitive HE and plasticise that, it is way safer, stays moldable and is much more brisant (APP
wont severe a 7mm x 60mm steel plate using just 40g).
Jimmybooyah April 19th, 2004, 12:22 AM

Thanks Boomer, I took your advice, one part DBSP with 1 Part AP and 2 parts AN. The AN was ground down till powder and
mised with 600 mesh Al. The stuff had a much better consistancy and hopefully it will still be detonatable with just a .223 case
full of AP.
FinnBell April 19th, 2004, 01:03 AM

I know we have discussed this before but never really went into depth. I bought some of that blue puddy for posters and junk
soaked some in gasoline and when I got a weird goo I took that out and I dont know if this is the stuff or not. I remember
seeing something about different ways to get the polyisobutylene out of putty but they never really discussed any ratios for
binding it with youre explosive. Does anyone have any experience with this? Mine is too gooey. What did I do wrong?
nbk2000 April 19th, 2004, 01:48 PM

It's 'too gooey' because that's the way it's supposed to be. Add a powder to it and mix it well and the 'gooeyness' will
disappear. :)
FinnBell April 19th, 2004, 07:33 PM

Well even after the addition of the AP crystals (roughly a film cannister full )it still seems too soft and it wont dry at all. Is it
possible the stuff isnt polyisobutylene? By the way, its a weird white color. Is that consistent with what everyone has seen? Im
just afraid since, I didnt use blue tack and it doesnt actually say it contains PIB that maybe this isnt the right stuff. I guess I'll
let it dry another day or two or maybe add some more AP.
Boomer April 20th, 2004, 05:04 AM

It is NOT supposed to dry, it should give a PLASTIC explosive like C-4, NOT something like AP putty which dries to a hard
block.
Or did you mean that the solvent does not evaporate? You have to spread it in a thin layer for a day or two, then it should be
mouldable like play dough.
If it is still too sticky/gooey then (no more solvent smell), knead more AP into it. You cannot know if it is the right consistency
before the solvent is gone - at least the first time before you know how much to add altogether.
Later you can add exactly the needed amount of AP while the stuff is still softer from the solvent, which is safer than kneading
AP into a then harder mass.
BTW the colour does not matter, the PIB is colourless, while the filler powder is blue, pink or whatever. The same goes for play
dough, which I sometimes use, it comes in many colours which are all in the fillers, not the binder.
FinnBell April 20th, 2004, 02:20 PM

Holy crap, play dough?? I didnt know you can use that. I'll have to try that. And yes I think its finally worked, I added a bit
more AP to the mix and it has the consistency of like cookie dough, a bit moist to the touch. Never the less it does detonate
though. The briscancy doesnt seem as high though, like it doesnt have that loud crack like it does when I do straight AP but It
did detonate. The power should be about the same though huh?
nbk2000 April 20th, 2004, 06:34 PM

He didn't mean you could use play-dough as a binder! :rolleyes:
He meant that he sometimes uses play-dough, as in playing with it.
FinnBell April 21st, 2004, 12:23 AM

Oh I thought he meant you could extract polyisobutylene from play dough, I guess I totally misread that.
"The same goes for play dough, which I sometimes use, it comes in many colours which are all in the fillers, not the binder."
My bad.
matjaz April 21st, 2004, 04:42 AM

Don't worry, NBK just likes to roll his eyes over others. ;)
+++++++++++++++++++
I only have an (evil) eye for you! :p
NBK
+++++++++++++++++++
Your interpretation was not stupid at all. I think there was even a thread here on extracting the binder from play dough. I tried
that myself, the problem is that the filler doesn't like to settle in the solvent so it's difficult to decant. And filter paper clogs
almost immediately.
Wes80 April 21st, 2004, 08:17 AM

I bought some of that blue puddy for posters and junk soaked some in gasoline and when I got a weird goo I took that out
and I dont know if this is the stuff or not.
Going by what you have said, you have kept the crap on the bottom and poured out the stuff you want! The petrol is the
solvent for the plasticiser, therefore you need to draw it off the top and evaporate it to a viscous clear sticky gell, THEN mix in
the explosive.
BTW, toluene or xylene should be a better solvent to extract all the plasticisers , but of course, more expensive and harder to
find.
Oktogen May 14th, 2004, 04:37 PM

I haven't made AP putty yet because I haven't got any nitrocellose, but I experimented with AP/potassium chlorate mix. It is
slightly more sensitive and powerful than pure AP. One of my experiments was making ~30grams of 80% AP 20% potassium
chlorate shaped charge. The explosive was put into a concrete block which I made simply by filling a flowerpot with cement.
Then I took two 2,5 * 120 * 120 milimeters duraluminium sheets and join them together with some 6mm screws. When
everything was complete I put the charge on the metal sheets, put this in a 30cm deep pit, put on this 5 3kg stones and finaly
detonated it with a fuse. The result was amaizing. the sheets were shattered completely. I don't have a digital camera but in a
few days I'll send you a photography of teared duraluminium made with my friend's camera.
Hang-Man May 15th, 2004, 09:51 AM

This is relevant to the AP Plasticizer thread how? We always like hearing about peoples experiments but next time put it in the
appropriate thread.
me234 May 20th, 2004, 01:57 AM

My own experience with APP is somewhat limited, but one thing I have noticed is that if you add some Al powder to the mix
while you're still mixing the AP in, you tend to get a slightly more dense product. This hopefully contributes to upping the AP's
VoDet a bit, and you get some Al powder in with the explosive, which should help the power along. Also it makes the charge
feel heavier in your hand which is also nice.
One other observation, matchboxes are the perfect size for an AP Putty charge, just so damn handy!
I stick my fuse in from the side, I'm hoping that this allows more explosive to undergo det. after the burning to detonation. I
don't like the idea that if APP is slow in deflagrating to det, that if I stick the fuse in from the top, it might burn down and only
a small bit on the sides and below the fuse towards the bottom of the box will det. as opposed to deflagrate.
I know this is probably unjustified reasoning, but it's my semantics and I'm proud of them.
matjaz January 5th, 2006, 06:07 AM

There's no significant difference between room storage and cold storage. But there definitely is a trend with storage time. The
ripe ones are way more brisant. The last pair of witness cans was almost torn apart. The great thing is that on this time scale
AP decomposition obviously isn't a problem here.
Well, guys, it's been two years since this experiment started. You will find the setup in http://roguesci.org/theforum/
showpost.php?p=60205&postcount=96. So a few days ago I had this dream. One last test cap was stored for TWO YEARS at
room temperature. Bloody successfuly!
Upon inspection, the cap had no crystals or discoloration visible on the epoxy seal or on the electric wire. I then slammed it
hard against a ceramic tile a couple of times, with no nasty surprises. I then setup a tealight candle witness same as described
in the original post and ignited it electrically. The last tealight candle was destroyed the same (perhaps even torn a bit more)
as the ones at the 95 day mark.
The conclusion: APrc gets ripe after a few weeks (probably depends on geometry/size because of solvent transport). And then
stores for years.
cheers!
Alexires January 6th, 2006, 08:04 AM

Congratulations!
Sounds like that is exactly the final product that people are looking for. Tell me, have you dreamt of using it is as a cap? If
you do so, please post your results, I would be eager to see them. Also, if it isnt too much trouble, would you be able to put
those pictures in the previous post (that you refer to) somewhere that they may be accessed? It is possible that I cannot
access them because of some stupid reason, but I would love to see them.
Again, congratulations
Jacks Complete January 8th, 2006, 07:40 PM

Nice one Matjaz! That's a great bit of research. :-)
Roughly what is "room temperature"?
tomu January 8th, 2006, 08:09 PM

Nice one Matjaz! That's a great bit of research. :-)
Roughly what is "room temperature"?
Hi Jack's,
Matjaz gave storage temp as 20C in one of the attachments to his original post.
Well done Matjaz really nice graphics/pics and a very interessting experiment.
Azido February 28th, 2008, 06:34 PM

Along the lines of APP, has anyone noticed that there's a seemingly significant quantity of Nitrocellulose in Nail Polish? I'm just
about to feed some AP to my sister's most obnoxious nail polish and see if it makes something interesting. The only thing is
that the solvents in Nail polish are primarily Ethyl Acetate and Methyl Ethyl Ketone, and I'm not sure of ap's solubility.
Nice work Matjaz!
-=HeX=- February 28th, 2008, 08:22 PM

Azido: The nail polish has been suggested elsewhere on this forum but good thinking anyway. Use the clear nail polish for
best results.
It would also be wise to Test the putty in a small amount for stability and safety before using it in the field. Can the solvents
be distilled off in any way?
Also I have found, concurrent to other members results that purified PIB From Blue tack is am excellent binder cos TATP and
gives a very stable and versatile product.
NoltaiR (Where are you?) did a lot of tests on TATP putty with rubber cement. Check out that thread for a lot of good data.
Maybe a methyl nitrate and nitrocellulose gelatine could be used as am energetic binder which would raise the power a lot?

Unless you are using it right-fucking-away, plasticized TATP is a very bad idea. The concept of utilizing polybutene (base
polymer of Polyisobutylene) is actually the best best due to immersion encapsulation of the energetic material. But energetic
peroxides sublime quickly even when micro-encapsulated.
The base material is available in bulk. What you want is polybutene and to form up the Polyisobutylene yourself by the
addition of ricinoate esters (available from Castor oil, etc). This allows you to control the plastic element and the "tackiness"
as you envision your final product. This would be linear polymer of Polybutene (isobutylene) of varying average molecular
weights. This straight chain paraffinic hydrocarbon varies from a soft, tacky, viscous liquid to a tough elastomeric solid
depending upon how you make it! A custom plastic energetic is fantastic, but TATP is a poor & unsafe choice for base material.
Roy Paci February 29th, 2008, 12:53 PM

Would you suggest lead picrate as a base material?
Charles Owlen Picket March 1st, 2008, 09:45 AM

A primary plastique? - Frankly, I have concerns about the viability of any primary in a mold-able flexible matrix. But certainly
toxicity is one element that would need to be addressed. Some of the newer "green" primaries that had been discussed in
research in Los Alamos Labs would be candidates. [These are off-shoots of tetrazene and have initiating power that tetrazene
does not possess.]
The basic complication, as you can imagine, is that with any plastic matrix, any sand or similar garbage will provide stimulus
enough to warrant extreme caution. It's fraught with danger in my opinion.
Swissdude April 15th, 2008, 06:34 AM

I also think that AP plastique isn't a very safe thing.
Because it's plastique you might tend to play around with it too much and too roughly which makes it go boom and blowing off
your hand/nose/face.
The_Duke May 10th, 2008, 03:35 AM

Its not a plastique, not even close. Try more like a dangerous hard and crumbly cake.
ductape man November 19th, 2008, 07:11 PM

I think that I may be able to answer the frequently asked question of how much AP one should mix with dbsp. I have been
experimenting with various amounts for over a year. Tests indicate that the more AP used the greater the det. One test I
performed was to make one once devices with 10% 25% and two thirds Ap amounts and noticed that any amount over the
latter made the mix to crumbly.
USE
I placed these various amounts in skoal snuff canisters and allowed to dry. Each canister was placed 10 inches into the ground
laying on its side and dirt placed over and tamped down. Each device was detonated in place with small AP cap. The 10% only
popped and left a two inch hole.
PARAGRAPH
The 25% a six inch crater and the two thirds an 18 inch crater. It is my opinion that Ap does not generate enough heat to
overcome the nitroglycerin stabilizers in the dbsp so more is needed. My future tests will be with nitrates that generate more
heat in order to see if less is required to detonate a solid block of dbsp.
BREAKS

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > My experiences with chlorate from bleach!
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View Full Version : My experiences with chlorate from bleach!

I had the strangest dream last night, it was surprisingly vivid, and this mornign I w as able to perfectly recall everything that happened in my slumberous hallucination. Here is
what happened in my dream:
I went dow n to the local supermarket and bought myself a tw o litre container of bleach. On the label it read "46 g/L sodium hypochlorite, 4 g/L sodium hydroxide", which is
4.6% NaOCl and .4% NaOH. I poured about a litre (half the volume of the container) of the bleach into my all-purpose cooking pot and brought it to the boil over the stove. I
let it boil strongly for about an hour, taking care to make sure it didn't all bubble over, until I had 15% of the original volume. The colour of the solution had changed from clear
to light green (indicating the presence of Cl). I let it cool, and then added 80ml of a supersaturated solution of KCl (diet salt, sodium-free salt) in w ater. I stirred this for a w hile,
then poured it out into a largish glash jar. At first, the results seemed spectacular. A fluffy white cloud of crystals had precipitated in the solution, yields appeared better than AP
using 6% peroxide. I w as quite pleased. I placed the jar into an ice bath and let it cool to 0C. No noticable increase in yield was observed, the fluffy cloud has simply settled to
the bottom of the beaker. I then poured it through a coffee filter paper and to my dismay, the crystals appeared to vanish. Where did they go? Did they react w ith the cellulose
in the filter paper? Doubtful. Where the crystals I originally saw merely an illusion created by them being highly hydrated? Very likely. Still, I left the filter paper to dry. A thin
layer of crystals w ere present, about 1-2 grams w orth of chlorate. This is a shocking yield from 1 litre of bleach. I ignited the filter paper and it burned like touch paper. Bah! All
that work (well, it was only a dream after all) for one measly peace of touch paper. What's my conclusion: If you think you're going to make chlorate by the bleach + KCl
method, unless you have pure, crystalline NaOCl, FORGET ABOUT IT, the method sucks. No w onder the government isn't concerned about people making explosives from
Chlorox. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
My next experiments, er..., I mean dreams, dealing with home chlorate manufacture will be the Kurt Saxon method and the calcium hypochlorite method (off to the pool store I
go. Well, it is available at the supermarket, but it's either in massive bucketloads of the stuff or small amounts for big $$$.) On that note, can the now more readily available
trichloro isocyanuric acid be used? Wouter Visser's page seems to indicate that it can, and I have heard rumours that chlorobenzene type mothballs can also be used to make
chlorates. Keep it real.

I used the whole gallon and boiled down until it gave 1.3 g/cc per the directions I had at the time, then added the Sodium free salt. It w as quite sometime ago that I did this.
Final product was about 5g as I recall. I just burned it with sugar which was a little slower than w ith pyro grade KClO3.
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

That yield sounds consistant with mine, as I didn't measure density, I just boiled it down to 15% of original volume, and a gallon contains 3.78 litres, if I remember correctly. 5g
is still a horrible yield considering how annoying it is to distill bleach.

Perhaps this process could be used to form more valuable substances, such as chlorate salts of urea and hexamine. Then a yield of 5g wouldn't be so terrible, if only for
experimentation purposes.

5 grams from a gallon is horrible. I know you're dealing w ith a dilute (5% ) solution, but there should be more than 5 grams worth in there.
Are you guys boiling the solution down to 1.3 AFTER the first crystallization? Because you can keep repeating the process for several times, getting crystals each time.
So maybe the reasons your yeilds suck is because you're only doing it once, instead of 5 times.
You can avoid that hassle though by using the calcium hypochlorite instead.
------------------
I am OTAKU! Seeker and Gatherer of all knowledge. Know this and fear me.

nbk, I'm using that in my next experiment, even if I have to buy the expensive stuff. I expect very high yeilds.

Yea, something doesn't seem right. My stoicheometry is VERY rusty cause I came up with like 311g KClO 3 from 1 gallon bleach and 189.53g KCl. http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frow n.gif
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited October 07, 2001).]
Hex October 8th, 2001, 07:47 AM

I guess we're lucky over here in the UK, w here you can buy 57% sodium chlorate wedkiller dirt-cheap down at every garden centre. The fire suppressant is water soluble, so it's
a piece of piss to precipitate out potassium chlorate if you can get hold of KCl (diet salt over here always has NaCl in it)
This was my first proper bit of home chemistry, many years ago....(sigh)In my youthful ignorance, I used to mix it with sulphur and charcoal, and sealed up my pipe bombs by
flattening the ends with a hammer! Fuck know s how I made it past my early teens w ith all limbs still attached.
tvs17 October 8th, 2001, 02:47 PM

Some years ago I also tried this method. Can't remember yields anymore, but they where not as bad as described here I think(if I remember well).
Take a look at this link:

http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/chlorate_EN.html#thermal

That's the method I used, tvs.
10fingers October 8th, 2001, 08:26 PM

Code Mason, the problem may have been the sodium hydroxide in the bleach. Get some with only sodium hypochlorite listed as an ingredient. I have noticed some brands like
Clorox are putting sodium hydroxide in their bleach. Usually the cheaper brands contain only sodium hypochlorite.
I have tried this method several times and it w orks fine. IIRC it usually yields 2 or 3 ounces,(50 to 75 gms)per gallon of bleach.
I have not had good results with the other method using calcium hypochlorite, sw imming pool chlorinator.
BoB- October 9th, 2001, 02:12 AM

You probably dumbed your yeild down the sink, since there will always be some water in the hypochlorite, the chlorate dissolves in the w ater present, you have to cool the
solution to about 0deg. F. to make the crystals precipitate.
------------------
Teamwork is essential.
It lets you to blame someone else.

Hrmm, yes, you're probably right. Because this reaction relies on the formation of an acid intermediate right? Forseeing a possible problem, at the supermarket I tried to find a
hydroxide free bleach but to no avail. I'll look harder next time. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

BoB-, I did that, quote from my original post:
<ul>I placed the jar into an ice bath and let it cool to 0C. No noticable increase in yield was observed, the fluffy cloud has simply settled to the bottom of the beaker.[/list]

Try using liquid pool chlorinator instead of household bleach. It doesn't have any hydroxide, and is 10% hypochlorite, not the 5% of the household type. 2 gallons costs less than
$3.
------------------
Expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed.
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.>
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited October 09, 2001).]

BoB- said 0*F which is -17.78*C
------------------
Never underestimate the pow er of very stupid people in large groups.
nbk2000 October 9th, 2001, 11:27 PM

I'm pretty sure he meant 0C/32F, ice water bath temperature.
Otherw ise you'd have to stick it in the deep freeze.
------------------
Expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed.
Kdogg October 10th, 2001, 12:11 AM

I am erie about trying this one.
------------------
Monkeyman

nbk, that brings me back to one of my original questions. Will trichloro isocyanuric acid w ork as well?
I have only found two brands containing HTH in my local supermarket, one is this little tub of 500g that costs like $30 (AUS mind you), and then there's a 20kg tub of the stuff
for $50. I can tell you, there are certain fertilizers I'd rather waste my money on! How ever there are rows and rows of trichloro isocyanuric acid. The reasons people like this is
that for pools it is a superior chlorinator (higher available chlorine content), and it is less likely to explode like HTH did when mixed with common ingredients. Wouter Visser's site
on chlorates, a veritable goldmine for home manufacturers, seems to indicate that it can, but makes no direct reference to it being useful. Its byproduct, cyanuric acid, can be
made into an incredibly powerful primery explosive by forming a salt of it, and mixing this w ith a solution of sodium azide.
BoB- October 11th, 2001, 04:32 AM

My bad homies, according to Wouter Vissers' page its 0deg.C

KIPE also says 0 celcius.
nbk2000 October 12th, 2001, 07:10 AM

I've never seen anything about trichloro being useful for anything other than pools, so I w ouldn't bother w ith it.
$30 for a pound?! Holy shit! At that rate, by the 20K for $50. That much should get you at least a couple of kilos of chlorate.
I don't know about australia, but in the US, you can by w ater softener crystals (KCl) for $8/50 pounds. A lot cheaper than grocery store salt-substitute.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
firebreether October 12th, 2001, 03:43 PM

Where would you get water softener crystal from?
PS I would think that you should get a much bigger yield than a few g from 1 L, I have never tried it but that sounds shitty.

In the US it is sold at Wal-Mart K-Mart and a couple other marts along w ith any hardware store.
It comes in 40Lb. bags that are blue or yellow .
the salt is little ovaliod chunks.
I also think that a better yield could be attained from the chlorox bleach method.
10fingers October 17th, 2001, 05:54 PM

CodeMason, I didn't notice this before but that procedure you used is unusual.
The one I use is to place 63 grams potassium chloride into 1 gallon of bleach. Then boil this dow n until the density is 1.3. You can use a battery tester for this. I have found
them to be inconsistent though so I just boil the solution dow n to about 1/3 it's original volume. You will begin to see some crystals forming on the surface as the solution
becomes saturated. At this point I remove if from the heat and put the w hole thing in the freezer. Many crystals will form and settle out. Filter them out of the solution and rinse
with a small amount of cold w ater. You can boil down the liquid again to get another crop of crystals.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited October 17, 2001).]

10fingers, it seems that your method is the unusual one, I follow ed step by step Wouter Visser's procedure (the generally accepted one). What yield do you get from yours?
------------------
Visit my w ebsite (in development): http://codemason.cjb.net
bubbling_beaker November 14th, 2003, 06:58 AM

Hi this post may be too late but i think this will be useful for people who w ill see this post.
Sorry to say this but it seem s you arent doing it right, I us ed to experience the same problems , all attempts i made res ulted in failure . but I was really determined and tried a couple of
times until I succeeded! (BTW DO NOT use any type of metal pots pan to boil with, Pyrex is best from my experiences, metal ones react and turn the bleach into a thick muck
which takes absolutely ages to filterand probably interferes in other aspects too).
If you make sure you take the following into consideration I can almost assure you will get better and at least positive results:
*Boil your Hypochlorite properly when using NaOCl i make sure the yellow colour is made, (lots of NaCl should be precipitating even whilst the soln is boiling)
*Boil your hypochlorite to the right volume (for 1 litre of 5% bleach it should be 140ml)
*Once you have boiled it let your soln cool.

i cool it until it feels cool to the touch. filter, keep the filtrate and discard the salt that remains in your filter (NaCl) then try to use the least amount of water to dissolve your Kcl Make
sure you have the stoic hiometrically correct am ount of K Cl-some indicate eg 50% less s odium us ually is a ratio by moles not mas s And once the K Cl is added to the boiled down
bleach, you reboil it and make sure all that precipitated is redissolved then let it cool at room temp, then move it to a fridge or freezer and cool until 0*c less if you want Then
filter it through a cloth and squeeze the w ater out yes just squese mainly KCl and NaCl will dissolve and go through which is the reason why the mass gets slightly smaller and
then purify it.
I hope ive made a valuable contribution.

Cheers :D
scarletmanuka November 16th, 2003, 06:37 AM

My method of making chlorate is from 125g/L NaClO liquid pool chlorine.
At 70C the following occurs 3NaClO--> 2NaCl + NaClO3 (in solution)
And then K+(aq) + ClO3-(aq) --> KClO3(ppt) at 0C
What I do, is heat up 200mL of the chlorinator to boiling point and then add 10gm of KCl in saturated solution( about 120mL). The KClO3 immediately precipitates about 5g
KClO3. further boiling and then crystillisation can give about 10gm more. This is a pretty good yeild ie.90% of stoich
Spy November 17th, 2003, 02:06 PM

hi,
the last time I used that method, I used HTH powder and I had any success , don't understand w hy that happened!
blazter November 24th, 2003, 10:47 PM

In my experiments (probably posted before) I used to get approx 40g of crystaline material from 1.5L of standard bleach. The trick to good yeilds in my experience is just to
keep it boiling at a good rate until crystals just begin to form at the surface of the hypochlorite/chlorate solution. The theory here is that the solution has reached saturation and
the maximum amount of potassium chlorate w ill precipitate when KCl solution is added. Once the KCl solution is added, the mother liquor w as chilled in the freezer for some
time and quickly filtered before crystals began redissolving. This procedure always left me with nice w hite crystals w hich looked like fish scales. Purity seems to be decent,
though the ground crystals alw ays seem to be slightly hydroscopic and would cake in the summer, but become free flowing in the w inter when it was drier. Flame test show ed a
mix of yellow/potassium purple, so there was still a slight bit of Na ion contamination.
scarletmanuka November 26th, 2003, 10:06 PM

Would it be possible to precipitate KClO3 from NaClO3 solution using KNO3 in any of the above processes, or is the solubility of KNO3 and KClO3 just to close to be of any value.
I ask this because KNO3 is dirt cheap and anything precipitated is then likely to be an energetic material.
I was thinking then of maybe doing this in large scale with HTH 85%Ca(OCl)2. ie
add hot saturated Cal hypochlorite solution to hot saturated KNO3 solution
3Ca(OCl)2 + 6KNO3 --> 2KClO3(insolublish) + 3Ca(NO3)2(soluble) + 4KCL(soluble)
Pyroman December 23rd, 2003, 07:35 PM

Last year I tried to make some clhorate from bleach and I was very disapointed with the very low yelds. In that summer I didnt have the potassium chloride for double
decomposition and I never got the sodium chlorate out of the solution after it had been concentrated by boiling and then lowering the temp. to zero degrees celcius. Other
cuorious thing that happened, I never get the 1.3 density onthe solution even when it started precipitating on the bottom of pan.Last month I bought tw o gallons of sodium
hipochlorite that contents 13.5% active chlorine and a 100lbs bag of potassium chloride as a soil alcalinity corrector on a farm store, this is a big bag but I cant found anithing
smaller.
This time I boiled the hipochlorite until it has a density about 1.2 and added about 730g of potassium chloride dissolved in a minimum of water at a temperature about 80C.
after the adition the density w as 1.3. Then temperature was lowered to 0C by putting in the freezer after reaching the room temp. and this time I got alot of cristals of
potassium chlorate . This cristals was washed with some freezing water and then dried.The portion of solution remaining was concetrated by boiling again and new portion of
chlorate w as recovered and this procedure was repetead one more time, the total yeld was about 600g. I milled a lot of cristals and added some sugar for test i dropped a few
dropsof H2SO4 on it and it catch fire immediatly.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > black powder manufacture
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View Full Version : black powder manufacture
stanfield June 30th, 2001, 05:53 AM

All know how to make black powder ?
75 g KNO3
15 g C
10 g S ?
ok, right but when I do this stuff, it's really no sensitive... however, in the Anarchist cookbook, I saw a method using alcohol. I would like to try making BP with this method but
this fucking book hasn't precise measures !!! So, anyone here tried this one and could give me the right amount and the right procedure ?
thanx...
DarkAngel June 30th, 2001, 09:31 AM

Don't read:
totse.com,anarchist crapbook,wierdpier.com,terrorist handbook it's useless.
And what do you mean with sensitive?

Did you expect it whas shock sensitive?
Well it's not,static electricity can
sett it of but don't expect when you
drop it on the ground it goes of
And do a search man

(Im the 10099999,,, person that said that)
When i did a search about BP i've
got 73 topic's,
There really must be one that
answered your question.
------------------
arkAngel

Agent Blak June 30th, 2001, 04:43 PM

I never use Alcohol with mine.
I mixed up my chems. Milled it in a coffee mill for 2min. then I sifted the mix. milled it for 5min. sifted it again. Then I put it in a container. I added a Spoon ful of Boiling H2O,
and stired. You keep adding H2O and Stirring until you can pinch it between your fingers and it will stick together. after this is do place on waxed paper and roll it out with
rolling pin. then place between 2 two boards and using C-Clamps press it. let it sit for 24hrs like this then take the clamps off and let it dry the rest of the way. I set mine stuff
to dry on top of a Hot water heater. It is just a little above room temp. and works just fantastic.
------------------
Pyro June 30th, 2001, 06:35 PM

Normally I wouldn't say this, but just search, I wrote extensively on this topic fairly recently and there are many other's who have done the same.-Pyro
Jumala June 30th, 2001, 09:57 PM

For BP manufacturing look here
http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/monk01.html
and here
http://www.ctel.net/~dwilliams/
kingspaz July 1st, 2001, 10:30 AM

basically all this method really involves is cooling dissolved KNO3 very, very fast so only small crystals grow. the longer it takes to cool the bigger the crystals. i use acetone
instead of alcohol. the reason alcohol is used to cool it fast is because KNO3 is not soluble in alcohol so will precipitate when the cold alcohol is mixed with the hot water.
Mr Cool July 1st, 2001, 12:00 PM

My lovely hydraulic press recently buckled (the curiosity to see just how dense BP could get was too great, and the cross-bars couldn't take it), so I needed an alternative... I
discovered that a big sache (sp?) clamp is just as good for pressing BP. It is big though - the metal bar that the jaws slide on is 0.5" thick and 3" wide, solid steel. Buying one
might cost more than making a press, but if you have one lying around then you could use it.
The precipitation method is inferior to the ball milling method, and a ball mill is still needed (or prefered) to get the C and S fine enough.
EP July 19th, 2001, 03:18 PM

Firefox sells ball mills used for blackpowder manufacture, but they are expenisve. Making your own is possible and a lot cheaper. Heres the link to the firefox mill- http://
www.firefox-fx.com/tooling.htm
Berserker September 1st, 2001, 02:06 PM

Al Capone: WHAT THE FUCK? That will give you a lot of noxious, black, smoke, basically shit all. Where's the oxidizer genius?
10fingers September 1st, 2001, 02:25 PM

I made a ball mill similar to the one on Wouter's Practical Pyrotechnics page. I don't have the exact address but if you do a search I'm sure you'll find it. It was quite easy to
make and works very well.
Berserker September 1st, 2001, 03:08 PM
http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/ballmill_EN.html

Not to long ago I made some black powder and wasnt very successful. I ground up sulfur in a mortar with a pestle for about 5 minutes. then did the same with charcoal, I used
the filter kind that you buy through laboratory supplies catalog. then I dissolved KNO3 in some hot water and mixed Carbon and Sulfur into dissolved kno3 and stirred it. After it
got homogeneous texture I poured it into cold alcohol that was cooled to -5C and put the whole mix into the freezer. Then I filtered it and dried it. And the stuff I have is hella
hard to light and when it lights it burns really really slow. why is that. Could the charcoal be the wrong kind. My proportions where right I used Dan Williams proportions.
Also I got me a Coffee grinder and ground it up really fine it seem to burn a little bit faster but not enough to be used in crackers.
(I know it isn't smart to grind up BP in a coffee grinder.)
-A- September 6th, 2001, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Agent Blak:
I never use Alcohol with mine.
I mixed up my chems. Milled it in a coffee mill for 2min. then I sifted the mix. milled it for 5min. sifted it again. Then I put it in a container. I added a Spoon ful of Boiling H2O,
and stired. You keep adding H2O and Stirring until you can pinch it between your fingers and it will stick together. after this is do place on waxed paper and roll it out with
rolling pin. then place between 2 two boards and using C-Clamps press it. let it sit for 24hrs like this then take the clamps off and let it dry the rest of the way. I set mine stuff
to dry on top of a Hot water heater. It is just a little above room temp. and works just fantastic.

You milled ALL the ingredients together in a coffee mill???. How brave...
BrAiNFeVeR September 6th, 2001, 02:49 PM

It's not really that brave, as long as you don't use quantities of more then 20 grams at the time in the grinder (and not too long)
But I like to grind up the chemicals separate from each other better (safer), then mix them a bit together in the grinder, and then wet it all and let it sit till all the water has
evaporated.
------------------

It is, most probably the charcoal that is to blame, I once tried charcoal briquettes and no matter how long the BP was milled for, the result was a slow powder. Homemade
charcoal makes a huge difference - nice fast powder that burns in a flash.
Lumpwood charcoal for BBQs (as opposed to briquettes) may work well.
10fingers September 6th, 2001, 05:25 PM

You can grind your ingredients with a mortar and pestle for a week and it will not be fine enough. Ball mill is the only way to go.
I make my own charcoal by getting a fire going in my wood stove, when there are a lot of coals I turn off the air supply so the fire goes out. Take out the charred wood and
scrape off the charcoal. You could also do this by getting a fire going outside and when there are a lot of coals throw some water on the fire. Supposedley soft woods like
willow make better charcoal for BP than hardwoods.
I also ball mill all my ingredients together, just do it outside and use a long extension cord. the ingredients get very intimately mixed this way. I would not try this with flash
powder though.
Agent Blak September 6th, 2001, 07:04 PM

I reccomend Activated Charcoal/Carbon. It is what I used in my powder and its preformance was Fantastic. I powdered my charcoa and sulfur together and milled the KNO3
Seperate. Then milled them all together.
------------------

That's because charcoal briquettes are like 40% clay.

Yup. Makes a lovely mess when you have to empty the BBQ.
Jumala September 6th, 2001, 11:01 PM

I have made some BP a few weeks ago. I used at first a coffee grinder to grind the components. I took charcoal made from woodpeaces (not pressed).
The ratio: 75-15-10
After mixing the components I made the first burntest. The result was disappointing compared to commercial BP.
After makeing it wet with some water and press it I got the same result.
Than I took two stones with flat polished surfaces. I mixed the powder with a little alcohol and rubbed the putty spoon for spoon between the surfaces.
After drying it gave a really good burnrate.
Not as well as commercial but much better than before.

I blend each ingredient separately in a common, household blender. I mix the kno3,C, and S by hand for 10 minutes with a wire whisk(for beating eggs and such). I then place
all ingredients back into the blender....with a 50 ft. extension cord, I blend for 20 minutes(have not had a problem yet). I do use alcohol, 473 ml. that has been chilled in the
freezer. To compress it, I use two boards and park the car on top of it! My total yield is around 1.5 lb.s.
Do not use cooking charcoal(as stated above-has high clay content), bulk charcoal is usually made of a hard wood(Oak) and does not burn as fast as softer woods. Pine
boards(1"x4"x8') is what I use, I simply strip them in to 1" lengths and start a fire! When they are consumed with fire, I smother them with a large metal garbage-can lid and
let them smolder.
Now, as far as WILLOW is concerned. I have a great supply near my house...it's called a golf course! I figure I am helping the golfers out by removing a few here and there(
hell, they are hazards on my course). I am still letting them dry out in my shed, I will post how they perform later.
shooter3 September 9th, 2001, 12:32 AM

A less wasteful way to make willow charcoal is to put your wood into an old burnt out paint can. Hammer the lid back on and punch a 1/4 inch hole in the top. Put this can in a
fire and as the can heats it will drive all the volitile gasses off. There will be a candle like flame burning at this hole as long as there is gas in the wood. When the flame goes
out give it 5 more minutes and the wood is done. It makes a nice pourous charcoal.

shooter is right. I put straw (I have a pet mouse) in a Milo tin with a small hole punched through the lid. I then place it in my fire. After a while a stream of dense, greenish
smoke will come out of the rupture. Once the smoke stops, I take it out, open it up, add a little water to the charcoal to soften it up then crush it into a fine powder. Dead
easy. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
BoB- September 9th, 2001, 10:24 PM

Rye grass makes excellent charcoal, it can be collected on mass scale by collecting the trashbags full of grass clippings from anyone with a riding mower.
The charcoal is very soft.
Bonus; its 100% free.
cutefix September 10th, 2001, 02:01 AM

But these free charcoal will make a poor black powder...
Tony Montana September 10th, 2001, 11:13 AM

I watched a "subtitle" movie the other night, called [Green Firecracker Red Firecracker]. It was set in the 1800's some time, anyway it was interesting to see how they made
fireworks nearly two centuries ago, without pyrex accesories http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif.
They would find some "fertile" earth/soil that was nitrate rich(maybe were something had just died) and would dig it up and take it back to town. In town they would put the
earth/soil into a large metal pot(cauldron), and fill the pot with water, they would then boil the water/earth.(KNO3 dissolves in boiling water, and is the about the only thing in
soil that will dissolve). They then filtered the watery *mud*, and evaporated the now clean looking water, which yielded 90%+ KNO3 crystals, then adding wood ash and
sulfur made the mixture complete! Could not get easier!!!!

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Flashes
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View Full Version : Flashes
krimmie October 13th , 2001, 11:28 AM

I was looking over old posts a bout flash powders...one in particular asked about KNO3 flash!
After falling to sleep, I had this dream....in my dream I m ixed KNO3(50%),S(30%) and Al(20%)......I got this image in my
d r e a m ( h o p e f u l l y , y o u all can see m y d ream ).
www.angelfire.com /gu n d a m / k r i m mie/Mvc_016s.jpg (http://www.a ngelfire.com / g u n d a m /krimm ie/Mvc_016s.jpg)

In m y second dream that night, I mixed KMNO4 (3 parts),Al (2parts), and S (1 part) and all measurments were in weight not
volum n .
In this, and the previous dream , o n e o u n c e o f t h e s e c o m p o u n d s w e r e u s e d . A s I h o p e y o u c a n s e e , m y two dream s were

radically different!www.angelfire.com/gundam /k rimm ie/Mvc_017s.jpg

You all m ight need to copy an d paste that last URL!
CodeMason October 13th , 2001, 11:50 AM

Good job. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/biggrin.gif lol, your two dogs didn't appear to o happy about th e o r d e a l .
W hat does that sign say in the background? "C HATEAUN ... Town ... Com mie room ..."?
------------------
Visit m y website (in development): http://codem ason.cjb.net
krimmie October 13th , 2 0 0 1 , 1 2 : 5 6 P M

Did you copy and paste the fo llowing U RL?www.angelfire.com/gundam /krimm ie/Mvc_017s.jpg
M y d o g s " l o v e " m y d r e a m s! I have a h a r d t i m e k e e p i n g them away......that one in the background actually grabbed a tube with
compressed KNO 3 and Sugar while lit! He ran with it for a while u ntil I was forced to put "him" out with an extinguisher!
Late r today, I plan on taking a pic of 5 ounces of KMNO4/Al/S in a sem i-confined tube. Must wait to take a nap and dream of it
though.
the freshmaker October 13th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 6 : 5 5 P M

5 ounces permanganate flash in a tube confined or not will make quite a bang. Make sure you hold your dogs of of your
dreams!!
I'm sure you won't have tim e to take any pics of this explosion, since it is going so fast, but goodluck and play it safe!
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Whats the best way to grind up
aluminum?
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View Full Version : Whats the best way to grind up aluminum?
Teck January 22nd, 2001, 01:49 AM

I need aluminum powder whats the best way to grind up aluminum to get powder 300-400 mesh?
ALENGOSVIG1 January 22nd, 2001, 01:58 AM

ball mill or MABE a coffee grinder..i dont think the coffee grinder will do it tho
------------------
shady mutha January 22nd, 2001, 02:11 AM

Ive tried the manual coffee grinder method and it doesnt work.
Crux January 22nd, 2001, 03:02 AM

I know a great way to make al powder.
it involves searching the old posts for the answers as this topic has been coverd
Agent Blak January 22nd, 2001, 11:57 AM

You will probabley burn out the motor in your coffee ginder; Which would be a waste. Also Mg powder(high mesh) is more
useful.
------------------
--RATM
J January 22nd, 2001, 01:32 PM

The method I've heard of (but not tried) is to use the coffee grinder first, then ball mill the flakes for a few weeks. It's
probably easier to find some ready powdered and buy it. Which country are you from?
Nitro January 22nd, 2001, 02:50 PM

i have tried the methode with the coffee grinder and it works for me but it was hard to light.
Agent Blak January 22nd, 2001, 04:00 PM

Do you mean where you force the button to stay down so it continues to mill?
------------------
--RATM
SafetyLast January 22nd, 2001, 04:41 PM

I use an electric motor powered grinding wheel like one of these http://www.northerntool.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/
ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=17017&prmenbr=6970
except without a sheild.
I take a piece of constuction paper and put it under the grinding wheel to collect the powder. I use old soda cans and grind the
bottoms off, the Al powder is about a 400-500 mesh dust that lights easily when
an oxidizer is added
and burns with a blinding white light.

So how do you get the grit out of the Al powder after?
------------------
--RATM

Could this be done with Al Rods?
what about Mg Rods(or would it be to dangerous)?
------------------
--RATM
Anthony January 22nd, 2001, 07:07 PM

There is a hazard with grinding Mg as the fine dust is easily ignited. You wouldn't have problems as long as you took
precautions against an ignition, like heavy gloves (should be worn for grinding anyway) and clear away the collected Mg powder
so there is never too much maying around.
J January 22nd, 2001, 07:25 PM

Remember that the particle shape is extremely important for Al flash mixes. I have some 300 mesh Al for mixing with
fibreglass resin, and it simply won't burn quickly enough in KCLO3/CKLO4 flash comps. AFAIK, the 400+ mesh flake Al is what
is required. I think the milling of Al foil will produce this type.
I also remember someone recommending heating the foil with a blow torch (a flame anyway) to make it brittle before grinding
it.
I don't see why Mg powder couldn't be made this way. However, you should run the mill well away from anything that could be
damaged/killed by an explosion. At this small particle size, the powder will become airborne in the mill and could cause a fuel/
air explosion.
There is a great post on the UK forum about making Mg from MgCL2 by electrolysis if you're seriously thinking of trying this.
shooter2 January 22nd, 2001, 08:49 PM

A very usable form of al. is made by sanding a piece of al pipe with a disc SANDER. Use 16 or 24 grit "Floor Paper". (The grit
stays on the paper). The al. powder, under a magnifying glass, looks like tiny thin ribbons with very sharp pointy ends. Of
course German black is the best.(This methode is very quick and the paper disk doesn't load up like a grinding wheel does).
P.S. Alot of al. pipe is alloyed with magnesium!
Teck January 23rd, 2001, 02:07 AM

Ok someone asked where was I from, U.S.
and this is the way I did it... I took an aluminum plate like a 2'by2' square and a hand sander (air or electric) and just sanded
the aluminum plate using a 240 grit sand paper. Its a lenghthy proccess so I was wondering if theres a faster way. Because its
really expensive to ship stuff to Alaska. Other wise I would just buy it. And another thing is what is atomized aluminum
powder?
Anthony January 23rd, 2001, 09:19 AM

The ture definition of "atomiised" should be a susbstance reduced into it's componenet atoms, so that one particle of the
poweder is only one atom in size.
BUt I think they just mean, teeny, tiny, itsy, bitsy sized powder.
Agent Blak January 23rd, 2001, 05:05 PM

I believe when they talk about Atomized Al Powders they are refering to the method in which it was prepared. Where flake is
ground(Large ball mill). Where atomized means it was brought to a liquid and put through an atomizer(it is sprayed into a
mist) and coolled in an oxygen(O2) free atmosphere.
You are then left with tiny droplet(round) peices of Al; which have less surface area than the flake.
------------------
--RATM
firebreether January 25th, 2001, 11:32 PM

I've tried using an electric coffee grinder but it doesn't get it fine enough. Seems to be about 1 mm thick pieces.
CragHack January 25th, 2001, 11:42 PM

1mm is not very good. you should take the coffee grinder process Al and then place that in a ball mill for a while. see what
you get.
------------------
...
homemaker February 27th, 2001, 02:24 PM

where does mesh stand for?
[This message has been edited by homemaker (edited February 27, 2001).]

You need to modify the ball mill. It must have two strips of metal attached securely along the inside of the milling jar,
opposite each other, so that the gap between them is about half to a third of the diameter of the milling jar. This lifts up the
STEEL media and lets them drop onto the Al, which hammers and grinds it, whereas a normal ball mill just has a grinding
action.
The Al foil used must be as thin as possible.
Bubba February 27th, 2001, 06:38 PM

Need powdered alumnum? Radiator Stop-leak. Check it out. Its powdered alumnum or so says Ragnar benson in the vid I
have "Homeade C4 a Closer Look"
DarkAngel February 28th, 2001, 11:15 AM

I bought it ones,It contains only a little bit of Al powder and rest is some kind of powdered glue
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a

<<Forum>>!!!

shouldn't you be able to seperate the glue from the Al Powder with a cell.
The Al Should go to the (-)electrode(Cathode I think). Anyone else have an Idea?
------------------

Aluminium ions will be attracted to the cathode in an electrolytic cell. However, mobile ions are only present in a solution of a
salt, or a molten salt. Metalic Al has no mobile ions in it, the positive ions are locked in place surrounded by electrons, so the
Al powder in the glue or whatever will be neutral and unaffected by an electric charge.

What about disoling it in H2O; The decant to get rid of the glue. do this several(4-5) times and then just dry out the powder in
a Toaster oven or the like.
------------------
Bubba March 2nd, 2001, 12:18 PM

Read in a book that you can get powdered AL from a screenprinting supply place. Seems that they use it to glitter the ink.
Make sure that it is actual Al and not plastic glitter though.

If it glitters it's around 50 times too coarse. The useful stuff is a fine dark grey powder.
PHILOU Zrealone March 9th, 2001, 08:50 AM

Atomised means; the process where Al resistance is vaporised by a high intensity current into a colled reduce-pressurised inert
gas like Ar, Ne, He, (N2 may form partially AlN!!!). Then when cold cold dry air is allowed to enter slowly to avoid too much heat
(the higher the heat, the thicker the oxyd layer arround the active metal and thus the less metal present in the grain!).
Then you get a very expensive, reactive, fine, Al powder, that can be set in fire by a lighter, that can detonate with air, and
with what thermite mixture is easily set in fire by a simple flame!!! NH4NO3/Al mix is also very powerful when in fire!!!!
------------------

I don't think that particle size matters when it comes to lighting a pure metal. So that it would be next to impossible to light
pure Al any size powder, flake or atomised. When you add an oxidizer it is easily ignited. or use as an FAE. And I think flake
is better for the same size mesh because it has more surface area.
DarkAngel March 9th, 2001, 03:56 PM

Maybe i have found a very good and cheap source for Al powder(Paint shop) ,,they sey that they sell two and a half kilo Al
powder for $8,88 USD
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!,,,Plus a

<<Forum>>!!!

Firebreether:"Fire Brother" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
Particle size mather, I am sure of that since my 400mesh Al powder doesn't burn with a lighter while my 4000 or more mesh
powder does! Tell me why then, metal powders are much more reactive and even pyrophoric (burning spontaneously when
dispersed in air) when in contact with air...if particle size doesn't mather
------------------
firebreether April 4th, 2001, 03:31 PM

i stand corrected! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif Where the heck did you get 4000 mesh Al powder? I
want some. Is that air float? Thats pretty tight you can light it with a lighter.

I got a 200g free sample from a french friend of mine working partially for the NASA and a lot of related pyrothechnic labs.
It cost a lot and it is very light 200g takes about 0.5l bottle place while mine 400 mesh powder is heavy and for the same
weight takes about 100ml.
------------------

This powder has been produved via the volatilisation of Al wire upon strong electric intensity in inert atmosphere. After cooling
a flow of very cold air is allowed to enter the reaction room.
Result a very very fine Al powder with a very very thin oxyd layer...thus very reactive powder since the active metal is in big
quantity and because the specific surface is big too.
It is so reactive that for the same Al quantity shuttles goes twice far thus ,meaning an economy of 50% fuel!!!!!
THis friend has also spoken to me about a new powder of Al coated with nitrocellulose....
------------------
shady mutha April 6th, 2001, 08:48 PM

I went into a car painting specialist store,anyway I asked for aluminum powder as a paint additive for a sparkle finish,he said
'what colour' I said aluminum he said'you mean silver' I said ill think about it and left.I had a look at the containers and they
are metal flakes of some sort but they are all coloured e.g "candy apple red,delicious red". They are in a hexagon shape.Is
this aluminum powder?
chair May 2nd, 2001, 03:57 PM

I looked in a hardware store for Al powder, and all I found was a gold coloured powder, no Al. I went into an automotive supply
store, and asked for Radiator Stop Leak, as mentioned by Ragnar Benson. I bought three tubes of it. I couldn't wait to get
home, so I opened it in the car, and smelled it(I don't know why), and it smelled like wheat. Well, when I got home, upon
closer examination I concluded that it was mixed with something. So I decided to try and seperate the stuff and the Al powder,
so I added water and mixed, and filtered, and repeated. The material that was left over in the filter paper still contained the
nasty crap that was mixed with the aluminum powder. I decided to try and seperate it by sifting through a mesh(after it was
dry). So I put it on a towel and let it to dry. I checked back in about 4 days and it was covered with maggots and flies. I
almost puked from the stench.
The moral to the story is, never leave a towel full of wet crap laying in your bathroom.
The end.
-chair
Anthony May 2nd, 2001, 04:37 PM

I've heard that story before somewhere.
Why wouldn't a person go in their bathroom for 4 days?!
chair May 2nd, 2001, 04:42 PM

I usually use the main bathroom of the house, not the one I kept the Stop Leak/Water mix in.

It cost a lot following what my friend has told me (He never told me the price; I guess it is over 1000$/kg); since it is only
experimental yet (kind a prototype) and that there is no big plant capable of producing it; every attempts of scaling up
yielded less performant powders than on lab scale! Also the site of production is in Russia where they masterise the process;
even if the procedure is wel known and documented, it seems that the lab that produces it mathers (or the operator)!
I know it is strange but I observe this every day in my lab at work; one guy making something a certain way will have different
results than another guy making the very same thing, the very same way even if the frist one assist for the making!
Differences are noticeable on Viscosity, stability, ...
This powder is clearly submicron it is dark black and from the look you can't say it is very fine; you only have that feeling when
playing with a spoon in it because it looks like ashes. The tiny grains looks very irregular with arms, branches (like fractals)
They thus display very high specific surface en they gather by imbrication!
------------------

Warhead, send me a mail at louis.p@pg.com and I'll send you a surprise!
------------------
Cricket May 5th, 2001, 01:25 AM

I noticed that Pyrotec sells 1000+ mesh Magnesium powder. Do they get this in a similar way?
ps, You are very lucky to have such a friend. All my 2-3 closest people (except my cousin and dad) are, bluntly put, quiet
stupid about everything I know. They are acting to know some of the easy stuff I talk about and then they don't know
anything else. That pisses my off, they think they are cool because they CAN mix gasoline and stryofoam (and probly never
have). I just don't talk about my main interests with them people, just my dad and cousin. And your friend also has a very
cool job, with NASA.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited May 05, 2001).]
10fingers June 18th, 2001, 12:41 PM

I didn't want to start a new thread on this topic so I dug this one up from the cellar.
I think it is very difficult to make aluminum powder suitable for use in flash by mechanical methods, filing, grinding etc. I had
some 200 mesh and I ball milled it for a week and it was only slightly finer, it would not work in flash. The ball mill would have
worn out before the powder was fine enough. In making high quality mirrors for astronomical use, etc. they suspend the glass
that they wish to coat with reflective material in a vacuum chamber. Directly underneath this piece of glass is a small container
that has a red hot electric filament in it. This is filled with aluminum. In the low pressure the molten aluminum will vaporize
and deposit on the glass surface.
My ideas is this; Why not take a piece of steel pipe with end caps and attach a metal tube to one end, connect this to a trap
half filled with oil, the output of this trap would go to a vacuum pump. The pipe is partially filled with aluminum and placed on
red hot coals, etc. When the aluminum has melted turn on the vacuum, it should vaporize and rise up the pipe and out the
output tube into the trap where it will be collected by the oil. After a sufficient quantity has collected you can remove the oil,
add a solvent and let the aluminum powder settle to the bottom. Pour off solvent, rinse the powder several times with solvent.
This should give a very fine aluminum powder.A process similar to this was mentioned by Philou.
One problem that may occur with this process is that the aluminum may deposit in the output tube as soon as it begins to
cool, this would quickly plug the tube before the aluminum vapor has reached the oil trap. If the output tube is heated it would
be too hot when it enters the oil trap and vaporize the oil.
This idea is #34 on a list of 128 projects to try someday.
Snipie June 20th, 2001, 11:51 AM

In my country (Holland) fine Al powder is sometimes used to mix it with epoxy, to make the epoxy stronger. The powder itself
is very fine, and not really expensive, like $20 for 1Kg (site is in Dutch <A href=http://www.goudacomposieten.nl/catalogus/
05.html>http://www.goudacomposieten.nl/catalogus/05.html</A>). I've used this stuff in a mix: KNO3, S and Al, and it worked
just fine.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2001, 05:06 PM

There's always the possibility of making the aluminum SO fine as to be pyrophoric. The moment you opened the reaction
vessel, FLOOSH! and there goes all the aluminum.
------------------
-A- July 28th, 2001, 05:03 PM

Grinding the aluminium can get very boring...
I asked at a paint shop and they had aluminum pigment... I wonder what this could be, apart from aluminum of course.
They also had silver pigment, which supposedly has aluminum too...
any info on this ones?
(I am not sure of the translation for the compounds)
BrAiNFeVeR July 28th, 2001, 06:51 PM

Wow Snipie, i did not know i could al powder so nearby so cheap (Antwerp;.be) !!
Could you give me an address where i can buy it, or do i have to order it (could not find too much info on the site)?
I would very much appreciate the necessary info and would be glad to return a favor ...
------------------
Ezikiel July 29th, 2001, 10:41 PM

Guys !! Speaking of pyrophoric Aluminum .... I know how to prepare Pyrophoric Nickel aka Nickel Black.
make a 1:1 alloy of Nickel and Aluminum. Take this chunk of alloy and put it in NaOH solution (10%) for a long time. NaOH
dissolves the Al and all that is left is a sponge of Nickel which is said to be Pyrophoric. Maybe Al can be formed in the similar
way. Na Al alloy left in methanol or ethanol. The Na will form alkanoates with the alcohol and Aluminum Black should be left.
------------------
J July 30th, 2001, 10:04 AM

Making Na/Al alloy would be extremely difficult! You'd have to do it in a completely sealed container for a start, then there's
the problem of getting pure Na. You could electrolyse molten NaOH, but I don't know how this could be done effectively.
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/
&.src=bc&.view=l)
Ezikiel July 31st, 2001, 12:22 AM

How about a Al/Mg alloy as the Mg reacts with haloalkanes to form grignard reagents (Alkyl Magnesium Halide).
------------------
Antonio August 14th, 2001, 02:15 AM

I tried using a bench grinder to grind some aluminum. It blew all over the place cause its so lite, plus I choked on alot of it.
Cant you just mix Aluminum foil with HCl and then mix the AlCl with Mg?
Teck August 20th, 2001, 06:10 AM

Ya, I was wondering about disolving aluminum foil in some acid, like HCl, sulufuric, or even nitric, then runing it through a
distil. Will that work???

Ya thats the way I used to grind up Al is with sand paper and an electric sander.
If one could cover the inside of a ball mill with grinding paper, and then put in little chunks of Al you might just be able to get
very fine Aluminium powder ...
Maybe something worth trying.
------------------
firebreether September 6th, 2001, 04:27 PM

If you put Al in an acid it will react to form the salt, so you will not have Al anymore.
krimmie September 8th, 2001, 12:05 AM

I have been using Al from flake(cuttings from a band saw), I grind this further with a blender. It is fine enought to ignight, but
not detonate in anyway. It is a lot of fun though!

Never tried a file or jigsaw, but I'd asssume any way to get something small(from something large) would work. Just make
sure to continue grinding it with a blender or coffee grinder. A file would become quite ponderous I believe! I have thought
that a belt sander, with the dust bag intact, would be a good choice. You'd have the option of 50 grit through 200!

I'm going to try a method wherein I place compacted Al foil (it looks like pure mineral gypsum, only silvery) in a film canister,
then drilling it with a powerdrill and somehow collecting the powder that is formed. Then somehow I'll remove the coarse
granules from the really fine stuff, and I should have good quality fine, dark flake Al.
When doing this I'm going to wear a face mask and eye goggles, do it outside, and take it slow to make sure the Al doesn't
overheat and ignite some of the fine powder.
SATANIC September 9th, 2001, 09:37 AM

i once tried dissolving Al in HCl (to collect the H2 gas) and then added Mg scrap. a very fine silver powder precipitated out, but
i never had a chance to collect / filter it before my mum chucked it out. When i added the Mg, the entire solution went black -
any ideas why?
( i do use the 'diggers' HCl which puts a funny colour into AP making as well, so maybe just a detergent or something in the
acid)

Satanic: That could just be very fine particulate Al suspended in the liquid, like when you pour very fine charcoal into water. I
doubt they'd put detergents in HCl acid.
Hey, this method sounds very cool! I saw it in the Terrorbitch's Crapbook, but I never tried it because those fuckers didn't
even know the proper chemical formula of ammonium nitrate! I can easily get Mg, so what the hell, next time I get some, I'll
give it whirl.

Probably aluminium chloride (I think).
Codemason, you'll probably only get a coarse powder using a drill bit. Even so, I believe dark Al is so called because of the
way it is prepared, IIRC flake Al coated on both sides with paper.
But I could be wrong.

Anthony, I've just done it, I've found it to be around 60% very fine Al, 40% coarse nuggets about 1mm by 2mm. I simply
placed a paper tray underneath the film canister and it collected almost all of the stuff that flitered out. I think I can seperate
by using a shirt as a seive perhaps?

How sharp was the drill bit?
If you can sieve it with cloth the you've got a pretty fine powder! It should work, it does with flour.
venz January 13th, 2002, 04:29 PM

anyone compare t-shirt sieved al to professional? if so.. i wondered what the mesh might be. it is silver colored and burns
when sprinkled over an open flame. i have been making it for a while, waiting for my KCLO4 to arrive. i hope it works!
[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: venz ]
Cricket January 13th, 2002, 05:25 PM

Well, I am ignorant in chemistry and all I know, but shouldn't there be a way to get very fine Al from a chemical method
instead of a mechanical method? Like having a rod or chunk of Aluminium, pure, and then disolving it in something and then
getting rid of the stuff that disolved it with another chemical or something :confused:? I bet Philou Zrealone will know! Maybe
someone should look closer intop the HCl/Al/Mg thing and see if that is a way. I would but can't do anything like that anymore
:( , damnit. Anyway, just a thought I had floating around for a while and thought I should share it.

The problem is that Mg stands to the right of Al in the electrochemic potential row.
Therefore:
3Mg + 2AlCl3 -> 3MgCl2 + 2Al is a possible reaction but not the other way round.
In the industry MgCl2 is converted by meltelectrolysis at 700 - 800C and cell voltage of 5-7V. At the graphite anode Cl2 gas
evolves and at the iron kathode Mg evolves which floats to the surface.
IF you would manage to reproduce these conditions it would have to be in a vacuumbecause the temperature is above the
flashpoint of magnesium :(
[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]
venz January 14th, 2002, 09:43 PM

A very usable form of al. is made by sanding a piece of al pipe with a disc SANDER. -shooter2
i tried this method and even sieved it through a t-shirt. once mixed with high purity chinese potassium perchlorate, it burned
very slow. it was also difficult to ignite. any ideas? i tried both cans and al foil. the foil works a little better.. but i expected a
FLASH. not a sparkler.

Err, from your post i understand that you made you Al out of cans and foil, that's not a good way cause these are usually
made of alloys or contain impurities.
I believe the foil is coated with something, too.
Sorry cricket i totally missed the point in my last post... :rolleyes: stupid of me....
I doubt you can make very fine Al powder in a chemical way, cause the Al formed in a reaction will easily form metal bindings,
thereby making very large clusters of atoms.
[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: vulture ]
Cricket January 15th, 2002, 07:46 PM

I thought it was possible, hell I don't know what im talking about. Oh well... just a thought.

I've read that the radiator stop leak al can be seperated from the glue, by soaking it in acetone. This could work.
Teck April 15th, 2002, 04:19 AM

venz: Try adding some sulfur to your flash compostion, and then confine it and it should work. When I add sulfur to my
mixtures, its successful even if i use the coarse AL. I usually do 30/60/10 AL/KCLO4/S... But Im sure other people have their
own ratios but I use this one and it seems to work fine.

Try potassiumchlorate as the oxidizer and leave the sulfur out.
It's very safe and easier to ignite, because potassiumchlorate requires less energy to release it's oxygen.
Permanganate makes very powerful flash, especially with sulfur, i have never had any problems with this mixture, but it's very
sensitive and storage unstable. Keep away from moisture!
Cricket April 15th, 2002, 05:11 PM

Be careful where you get your Sulfer from though, I have heard that the stuff from the drug store is slightly acidic and maybe
not pure enough.
The Great Milenko April 16th, 2002, 09:46 AM

Yes, but I've read a way of purifying it, but I can't remember were. On the subject of permanganate flash; I was under the
impression that the best permanganate flash was Al and KMn04, do you know if it's any similar with just KMn04 and sulphur?
And yes I know about how amazingly unstable it is! :rolleyes:
[ April 16, 2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: The Great Milenko ]

I meant KMnO4/Al/S al mixed together, a 20g cracker of this stuff makes an enourmous bang.
KMnO4/S burns fiercely but can not be seen as a flash powder.
I used flowers of sulfur, which are slightly acidic and i had no problem at all. Maybe I was just lucky.
If you use permanganate you can not use alcohols for mixing it! Use acetone, this will also prevent it from getting wet.
The acid danger can be countered by adding a little bit of CaCO3.

[ April 16, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]

IIRC there is "sulfer flour" and "flowers of sulfer", the manufacturing processing differ and I can't remember which one gives
problems with residual acidity.
0EZ0 April 16th, 2002, 11:45 PM

Does anyone know anything about the "Al Flaker"? I found <a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?
hl=en&selm=CHRIS.94Apr18170024%40bert.cs.byu.edu&rnum=1" target="_blank">This</a> while searching on
rec.pyrotechnics
(Note: I didn't post the information directly to here because of the large length of the post at rec.pyrotechnics)
Sparky April 21st, 2002, 10:33 PM

The same guy posted this link to his page but he seems to have ommited it from the post he made the second time. It has
pictures and stuff. <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/justin.le/grinder.html" target="_blank">http://members.shaw.ca/
justin.le/grinder.html</a>
0EZ0 April 21st, 2002, 11:13 PM

Jackpot! Thanks Sparky. :p As much as i searched for pictures of the device, i could not find any. Now that i have all the pieces
to the puzzle, i will see if i can construct such a machine. :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > 8 m onth old AP
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View Full Version : 8 month old AP
Teck April 14th, 2002, 09:14 PM

I h a v e a q u e stion... I've been away for 8 m onths and before I went away I made 3 batches of 50g of AP each (each batch was
washed with about 10 gallons of water)(in m y d ream ) . N o w t h a t I m b a c k I d e c i d e d t o m a k e s o m e t h i n g a n d r e m e m bered the
AP I m ade a while back. I picked up the jars and I saw sm all crystals on the sides of the jars, they are very sm all and they are
prickly looking crystals. Also m y jars are covered with plastic bags and tie d with rubber bands, and theres sm all crystals
between the glass and the plastic. I was wondering how stable is this shit? And is it okey to open it and take the AP out of the
jars. Or shou ld I just take it out back and shoot it.
O n e m ore thing I have (an illusion) that I have about 6 00g of flash and it wont light, Im guessing because of the m oisture
and because I kept it in a paper can. Is there anyway to dry it out and m ake it usefull?
shooter3 April 14th, 2002, 09:56 PM

Don't try to unscrew the lid. I had one explode on m e just popping the lid off a m ed. bottle! Recondensed AP is very sensitive!
MrKGB April 14th, 2002, 09:56 PM

W hen you open it it's possibil that it will detonat.

I'd be scared to even touch th ose jars. If at all possible, detonate them where they are.
nbk2000 April 15th, 2002, 12:06 AM

Toss the AP and the flash into a roarin g fire and be done with th e m . T h e y ' r e a h a zard waiting to fu ck you off. Just start over
again. It's cheaper to m ake a new batch than to buy a prosthetic arm .
<sm all>[ April 14, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</sm all>

Yeah just discard the flash.. I dont suppose it will spontaneously com bust with anything in your trashcan <im g border="0"
title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
But as for the AP.. I would think it funny to be inside a large building and drop the jars fro m a window into a busy street down
belo w :D ... just don't blame it on 'som e guy on the internet who told you to do it'...hehe
<sm all>[ April 15, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</sm all>

just move the charge with a couple of towels and detonate it with another charge, screw of the lid will proboubly be your last
m istake in your life...

I never screw the lids on m y jars with explosives. I usually take a bag an d m ake a lid out of that. So I was thinking if I cut the
plastic an rem ove it that way. But hell I'll just have to detonate the AP. True making a new bath would be cheaper than a
prosthetic arm . Alright thanks for the input guys. Ill just take the jars and detonate them in m y old washing m achine out back.
Pu239 Stuchtiger: Detonating the jars in m y sm all place I call lab would not be cool.
But burning that much flash m a k e s m e hurt even to think about it. W ill it still work if I spread it ou t on a ta ble and dry it for
like couple of days?
nbk2000 April 15th, 2002, 05:13 AM

Possibly. But who knows what kind of chem ical changes have taken place in it since it's gotten wet. Too risk y.
Have fun burning it.
DarkAngel April 15th, 2002, 08:58 AM

Storing AP 8 months while covered is just KE\/\/L
Anyway as you covered it with plastic bags try to carefully pour a solvent like acetone on the bags,this will eat through the
plastic.
Carefully pour in m ore till the jars are full with the solvent you can than safely handle the jars.
I can't understand wh y you m ake AP when you don't need it,always deal imm idiately with it ones it's m a d e .
mrloud April 15th, 2002, 09:35 AM

S o y o u h a v e 1 5 0 g r a m s of partially recrystalised AP? I would not even sneeze in the sam e room as the stuff. I dont know
anything about the la yout of your room but I would get everything else o ut of the room. P i l e u p o l d p h o n e b o o k s o r s a n d b a g s
around the jars and in front of the doo r, board up any windows and turn on some loud mu sic for your neigh bours. Then try to
d e t o n a t e t h e jars one at a tim e where they are. O r all at the same time if you have no choice. Either way, its still go ing to be a
big bang.
Madog555 April 15th, 2002, 10:34 AM

i think the darkangel method is best

W hat kind of flash is it? Do not throw the flash in the trash can, this might sound redicolous but there are chem icals in a trash
can it could react with.
W ash the flash with a cetone, not with isopropyl if you do not know which oxidizer you used. You could try to burn it when
soaked with acetone. However, be careful, i did this once and the flash burned a few seconds after the acetone went out!
nbk2000 April 15th, 2002, 02:01 PM

Dig a hole, p ut some burning wood in it, and toss in the flash wrapped in a bundle of newspaper.
Then RUN!
End problem.
mongo blongo April 15th, 2002, 03:12 PM

You can alwa ys sell the AP to a K3\/\/e|_ and tell him that he is going to have to com e over and pick it up! :D
J April 15th, 2002, 06:06 PM

I wouldn't wa nt to risk even to uching them , let alone carrying them s o m ewhere. I don't kn ow the details of the room you're
k e e p i n g t h e m i n , b u t I ' d s u g g est flooding the jars to so ak the AP. If the lids are just plastic, the water should penetrate them
after a while.
If you can't errect some kind of waterp roof barrier around them to do this, use buckets an d b e e x t r e m ely careful m o v i n g t h e m !
As for the fla sh, if it's really that innert, moving it shouldn't be a problem (although I cringe to think of 600g of flash being
m ade in one batch at all). Burning it's a good suggestion.
<sm all>[ April 15, 2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: J ]</sm all>

Ok, thanks guys. Ill just pour the accetone into the jars and then move them that way. Th ats probably the last time I m a d e
such a large batch. I had plan s on using it after I made it but m y s i t u a t i o n m a d e m e l e a v e s o I c o uldnt use it up. Jeeze it
f r e a k s t h e h e l l o u t o f m e k n o w i n g t h a t I h a v e 1 5 0 g o f u n s t a b l e A P n e x t t o m e. I still would like to detonate it outside in my
washing m achine. W ill it detonate when wet?
J: I didnt m a k e 6 0 0 g o f f l a s h i n o n e b a t c h . I m a k e m y flash in 100g batches.

STOP! burning the 60 0g of flash all at once will cause detonation, it's above the critical m ass of flashpowder!
nbk2000 April 16th, 2002, 03:27 PM

This IS an EXPLOSIVES forum .
If th e flashpowder actually exploded instead of just burning, then all the better. :D
Just run a little faster, that's all. <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
Oh, and buy a $3 pair of fireplace tongs. The k ind that scissor open and closed like the fist thing in cartoons. Use those for
carrying arou nd the AP. Then, if it goes off, it's just ringing ears and som e plastic cuts, not "Stump y".

Once you've got the AP in the acetone solution, there shouldn't be any reason wh y you can't recrystalise it and use it as you
wish.
6 0 0 g m of da m p , h o m e m ade (unknown quality), unconfined flash detonating by flame? Pull the other one!

D a m p of acetone is very different of dam p of water.
Read the first few pages of the complete book of flashpowder, you'll see what i m e a n .
green beret April 21st, 2002, 02:00 AM

Hehe, the funniest thing happ ened today.
I was looking for a roll of fuse that I had stashed away, when I found 4 film cannisters of AP, each full of AP and wa ter.
T h e y m u s t h a v e b e e n t h e r e f o r m ore than a ye ar, but there is no recrystalisation at all, because the AP is highly saturated.
I guess I will take them all ou t and chuck them on a fire. I think I was going to m a k e s o m e detonators but never got round to
it, I then forgot about the AP. :(
Oh well, at least it will go off with a bang hehehe.......

vulture May 31st, 20 02, 04:5 2 PM
W hat actually happened to the shit now Teck?
mr.evil May 31st, 20 02, 05:2 0 PM

Helvetica"> Dam p of acetone is very different of damp of water.
Read the first few pages of the complete book of flashpowder, you'll see what i m ean <hr /></blockquote>I wish i had the com p l e t e b o o k o f f l a s h p o w d e r : (
i've downloaded it from the forum ftp, but i cou ldn't open it bacause som e stupid computer m istak e or som ething. I've also
d o w n l o a d e d t h e f i l e f r o m m a d og555's site, but it doesn't open also...Really strange!
D o e s s o m e o n e h a s a w o r d d o c u m ent of the com p l e t e b o o k o f f l a s h p o w d e r ? ( i n s t e a d o f p d f ) t h a n k s . .
0EZ0 May 31st, 20 02, 10:1 1 PM

S a m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o m e m r.evil. Just update to Adobe Acrobat Read er Version 5. W orked afte r i upgraded. Here is the link
to the netherlands download site:
<a href="http://www.adobe.nl/products/acrobat/readerm ain.html" target="_blank">http://www.adobe.nl/pro ducts/acrobat/

readerm ain.html</a>
<sm all>[ May 31, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</sm all>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Peroxide crem e
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View Full Version : Peroxide creme
SATA NIC May 21st, 20 02, 09:1 4 PM

I've just bought som e peroxide creme (for hair dyeing) that i wa s told by the shop owner contained 30% peroxide (250m ls for
$5 aus)
I now get it home, and it's actually 30 volumes. the small print on the back states it contains 9%.
what i actually want to know is if it is safe for using in AP production. It contains not just the norma l deionised water, and
H 2 O 2, but Phosphoric acid Methylparaben. i'm a s s u m ing this is to give it the crem e consistency.
Is it going to b e s a f e t o u s e ? O r, being an acid, will it need no added catylyst (HC l or H2SO4?)
mongo blongo May 21st, 20 02, 11:0 0 PM

By b eing an acid do you m ean the Phosphoric acid?
If you do , it acts as a stabilizer (H2O 2 d e c o m position). It will not act as a catalyst for AP synth.
SATA NIC May 22nd, 2002, 02:30 AM

yep, i m eant as a catylyst for the synthesis. oh well, as long as it isn't going to do any dam age / cause instabilities.
the Phosphoric acid Methylparaben is one ingre dient. it isn't just the acid.
This is the cheapest i have ever found H2O2 in aus, so it would be a real blow to find out it didn't work.
Mick May 22nd, 2002, 09:13 AM

if yo u search the forum for 7 litres of 60% H2O2 you will find a topic that i posted a while ago about cheap 60% H2O2 in OZ
that can be bought from a p o o l s h o p ( n o i d , o r a n y s h i t n e e d e d , i t s a s i m ple over the counter product.)
buying anyth ing from a chem i s t i s g o i n g t o b e u n g o d l y e x p e n s i v e .

if yo u m ust buy low conc peroxide, but the 3% from superm arke t, its shit loads cheaper then what you will buy in the chemist.
however, why pay $10 for 500m l of 3%, when you can pay $30 for 7 litres of %60.
there are a few ups and down with the 60% tho, a good point is the reaction is ultra fast(like i can m a k e 2 0 0 g + i n a n hour)
downside is it gets really hot really quick, so yo u r e a l l y d o n e e d t o h a v e g o o d c o o ling -leaving a co ntainer of salt wa ter in the
freeze for atleast 3 hours before hand is a good way. also, because it is such a high conc when you add the H2O2 to the
acetone, the reaction starts without the catalyst(sp?)
even tho the reaction is slow, it still puts out alot of hea t which m e a n s y o u need to cool the vesel from the start, because on ce
it starts to heat up you can not cool it back sufficently and you will end up with the dim mer.
just a few tips.(ultim atly, if you couldn't be assed cooling it down heaps you can always dilute it down to 30%)
Pu239 Stuchtiger May 22nd, 2002, 08:56 PM

I think phosphoric acid actually would work as a catalyst for preparing acetone peroxide. The reaction probably wouldn't be too
q u i c k , t h o u g h , b e c a u s e p h o s p horic acid is not a strong acid.
SATA NIC May 22nd, 2002, 09:28 PM

It would have to be stirred the whole tim e, because it is a rather thick cream.
Mick , i used to pay $6 for 200m ls of 3%. It was the only stuff i could find , in a chem ist. obviously, i didn't produce AP in great
quantities.
Is it a simple m atter to dilute the 60% H2O 2? just add water?

I'd rather do that than be worried about overhe ating, especially if i was m aking la rge batches (which is, i know, not good
practice)
when i get m y other (acetone, HCl) stuff together, i'll post results.
PYRO500 May 22nd, 2002, 10:31 PM

it is pretty easy to dilute H2O2, all yo do is add water. I have found that past 30% the yeild can decrease and past 20% you
start getting very larg e a m ounts of AP that will m ake the majority of your solution filled with packed crystals, I have made
about 200G of AP in an hour and a half with 30% in a salt ice ba th with slow addition of HCL until the reaction was com plete. I
did not keep this stuff for very long an d I dried it with paper towels between parts of news paper, I had a 200G charge of AP
within 3 hours that when confined in some styrofoam cups and topped with a straw segment with KNO3+sug ar and a length of
fuse with nichrome through it I managed to get an electrical initiated device that when buried a few feet under m anaged to lift
a cinder block a few feet in the air!

Make sure you add distilled water, otherwise the H2O2 could start decomposing.
Anybody ever considered using powders or tablets that contain p erborates or percarbonates. It's sometim e s s o l d a s s t a i n
removing salt or desinfectant tablets for dental stuff. IIRC , they liberate H2O2 in contact with water. I once saw stain rem oving
salt that contained 30% percarbonate and had an oxidizing symbol on it.
PYRO500 May 25th, 2002, 12:09 PM

was this stuff O XY clean? I rember hearing a long tim e a g o a b o u t s o m e o n e m aking AP with little tablets they got from a
chemist.

It was som e product from <a href="http://www.hginternational.com " target="_blank">HG internatio nal</a>. It som e k i n d o f
stain rem oving salt, but i can't find it on the we bsite.

I think it was sodium p e r o b a t e ( o r s o m ething that starts with a p). Thats all I rem ember now (really drunk).

Oxi-clean is definitely (m ostly) sodium percarbonate, for what it's worth.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP solution evaporation -Increased
Yields-
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View Full Version : AP solution evaporation -Increased Yields-
endotherm May 30th, 2002, 04:37 PM

I h a v e f o u n d that if a Acetone Peroxide solution is left uncovered, for a 1 hour period prior to crystal collection, a noticeable
increase of 1 0% or m ore product is collected.
T h e r e a s o n i s t h a t a c e t o n e , b e i n g t h e m ost volatile of the solution, is also a powerful solvent of Acetone Peroxide. As the
a c e t o n e e v a p o r a t e s , a m ounts of crystalline product are left behind in the solution in which they are not soluble, ready to be
filtered.

L o o k s t o m e t h a t y o u 're just using too much acetone, if you get that noticable difference in yield ...
W hich m e t h o d d i d u u s e ?
And what percentage H2O2 ?
DBSP May 30th, 2002, 04:58 PM

Do you m e a n l e a v i n g i t i n t h e o p e n o u t of the fridge? I never cover m y b atches since I have a fridge of my own to have m y
nasty stuff in.

h e m e a n s t a k e i t o u t t h e f r i d g e a n d l e a v e i t u n covered for the acetone left in the solultion to evapourate. thus precipitating
e x t r a A P . b u t y e s i t d o e s s o u n d l i k e h e s u s i n g t o o m uch acetone but i think a little excess acetone is allways a good idea to
m ake sure all the H2O 2 gets used up.
endotherm May 30th, 2002, 06:33 PM

My general formula(3 % p e r o x i d e )
60 parts hydrogen pe r o x i d e
30 parts acetone
10 parts hydrochloric acid
If i used this form ula to 100% ratio (100 ml solution)I generally get 1/4 of a film canister full. The yield is terrible, but higher
concentration peroxid es are harder for me to get than plutonium . I just can't find anything with a reasonable price. I'm not
p a y i n g 5 0 $ f o r a c a s e o f b a q u acil. I hate AP an yway
mongo blongo May 31st, 20 02, 12:3 9 PM

It would be quicker to dum p the filtrate into water to ppt the AP.
NoltaiR May 31st, 20 02, 03:2 7 PM

u m m m e n d o therm... I buy 3% as well and just boil it down to a little less than 10 % of the original volum e.. works g reat and
yields are im pressive if done right. It usually takes m e a little m ore than 2 hours of boiling to reduce a gallon (~3.8L) of 3%
i n t o 3 0 0 m L o f ~ 3 0 % H 2 O 2 . T h e A P I m a d e l a s t n i g h t h a d a m a s s o f a b o ut 90g from the 300m L o f b o i l e d d o w n H 2 O 2 : 5 0 0 m L
a c e t o n e : 2 8 m L 94% H2SO4 after 12 hours.
<sm all>[ May 31, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
Flying D utchman October 7th, 2002, 05:50 PM

endotherm ,
Aren't you using way too m uch Aceton and HCl?
60 parts H2O 2 (3%)
30 parts Aceton (100% I guess)
10 parts HC l (30% I guess)
All b y volum e I h o p e . .
calculate the 60 parts of H2O 2 to 30% 60/10=6
than your formula would be 6 parts H2O 2 30 Parts Aceton and 10 parts HCl.
I'm not sure if I'm right, but this is what I understood from your story. I'm sorry If I'm wrong.
-FD

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > R e-crystilized?
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Rat Bastard May 10th, 2002, 10:03 PM

I h a d m ade an ap filled cardboard tube (it was like a big firecracker) that had been about 5 days old. W hen I lit it the fuze
burned out short, so I decided to take it apart (yes that is dangerous!) a nd noticed the ap had little square crystals in it:
<img src="http://m e m bers.sh aw.ca/raydawg/pics/c-ap.jpg" alt="" />
<img src="http://m e m bers.sh aw.ca/raydawg/pics/c-ap2.jpg" alt="" />
<img src="http://m e m bers.sh aw.ca/raydawg/pics/c-ap3.jpg" alt="" />
Is this the m ore unstable form of ap? or is it ju st som ething else like the bicarb solution?
<sm all>[ May 10, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]
PYRO500 May 10th, 2002, 10:32 PM

was the stuff dam pened with anything when you put it in there did you press it?

no pressing, it was just put in.
I lit the crystals and they burn ed just like normal ap.
PYRO500 May 11th, 2002, 01:01 AM

was it dam p when you put it in?
Rat Bastard May 11th, 2002, 01:31 AM

Nope, it was dry when I put it in.
It was one of m y test crackers. When I test things I usually m a k e t h e s a m e thing a few different times with differen t
construction m e t h o d s .

Hm m m , I ha ve m a d e s o m e nice batch es of AP (and cra ckers too) in m y d a y s , b u t t h i s n e v e r h a s h a p p e n e d t o m e a n d t h i s
s e e m s to be bad(!). I hear a lot of people say it will vaporise an d recrystalise if it is consa tined in som ething airtigh t (jar for
e x a p m le) an d the crystals are like NI3 (very, VERY sensitive). Did you test the crystals' friction sensitivity? Be carefu l m a n ,
don't let AP win another battle !

did it get hot at all? this m ay cause it to evapourate and recrystalise upon cooling.

I don't think so, but I sm aked it with a ham m e r twice before it d etonated, so It wasn't "su per sensitive". But I dunno about it's
friction sensitivity. It's all gone now :(
I once had a batch of AP stored in a film canister for over a week and it didnot re-crystilize like this stuff did.
<sm all>[ May 12, 2002, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]
vonK May 12th, 2002, 05:20 AM

I store m y CTAP in m atch box es and after a month or two the powder turns into crystals like you described, about the size of
coffee crystal sugar (som e t i m e s b i g g e r ) .
This crystal CTAP app e a r s t o m e t o b e n o m ore sensitive then the powde r. I have even crushed them in a m o t a r a n d p e s t l e
with no problem s, only a couple of crystals at a tim e.
I don't worry about it too much.
DBSP May 12th, 2002, 05:35 AM

I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a n ything like this crystals. I've had AP sitting for m onths and it has still been th e s a m e and the sensitivity
hasn't increesed either. I think it has got some thing with how thurough you are when you wash it. I allwas spend lots of time
washing it to ensure that I get a safe product.
PYRO500 May 12th, 2002, 01:31 PM

I'm going to repeat this for all your safety: Do not store AP for extended periods of time it just isn;t necessary. As for putting
AP in a m ortar and pestile tha t has to be the worst thing you can do next to sm o k i n g w h i l e m a k i n g e x p l o s i v e s . H a v e y o u e v e r
h e r d o f a m a n n a m ed Kurt Saxon? He thought he knew what he was doing and lost som e fingers by grinding armstrongs m ix
in a mortar and pestile, now h e was grinding two ingredients together that were seprate (b ut friction sensitive) and you are
grinding and cleaving AP's crystal structure witch is a BIG NO NO ! that is the kind of stuff that kills!

I never said that I wa s grindin g it.
It's all gone now (I burned it away).

vonK May 13th, 2002, 06:37 AM

No, I didn't actually 'grind' it, I just pre ssed on the individual crystals untill they broke.
But I have ground a crystal of CTAP before and found it took a lot of force before I heard sm all 'cracking' sounds.
C o m pared to armstro n g s m ix, which I have had go off while squezzing a toy cap in m y fingers, CTAP is, in m y opinion,
relatively friction stable. This doesn't m ean I don't take all the usually safety precautions, it just m e a n s I d on't shit my pants
every tim e I handle the stuff.
PYRO500 May 13th, 2002, 05:11 PM

you should when crushing the crystals, that is p recisely what can cause larger flat crystals of peroxides to detonate, when you
cleave the crystals you can break the weak bon ds of the AP, just don't do it again , AP is NO T frictio n stable.
Madog555 May 13th, 2002, 11:35 PM

storeing AP is bad and if you m ust do it disolved in alca hol or acetone or under several inches of water.
store it outside or in a place where if it goes off u wont care.
NEVER store it dry or dam p and dont put it in a screw lid container. madicine bottles are good or film cans.
PYRO500 May 13th, 2002, 11:55 PM

The only problem is AP isn't soluable in acetone or water but it will sink to the bottom , the re will be a bit if crystals on the top, I
recom end yo u scoop out the crystals foating, I hasve no idea if they could form a s k i n o f s o m e kind, I don't store my stuff.

Oh shit. I just made an unpleasent discovery. I thought I only had 1 ap cracker, but I forgot I had another still on the drying
shelf:
<img src="http://m e m bers.sh aw.ca/raydawg/pics/ap-c.jpg" alt="" />
its a bout 2 weeks old. Im pretty sure that one is crystilised too. I mistaked it for one of m y flash powder ones, but now I
r e m e m ber.
Next tim e I m g o n n a l a b l e t h e m .
<sm all>[ May 15, 2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]
Kdogg May 19th, 2002, 01:26 AM

So how do th ese compare to m-80s? Are they alot louder? Ive never had the tim e t o m a k e o n e y e t . I k n o w I k n o w I s h o u l d n t
compare le's with He's, but its just the sound.. shockwave etc im looking for.
A_W May 19th, 2002, 08:21 AM

K d o g g , a s t h e e s e a r e high-explosive devices, they are, of course much louder than M-80`s.
I recently m ade a HMTD cracker (pretty much the same as AP) of a drink ing-straw. The cracker was a little longer than 1" long.
As I detonated it outside my house, I wanted to muffle the sound by placing a bucket over the charge. The whole bucket got
ripped alm ost in half, and I could feel the chockwave! A LE charge the sam e size (and much bigger), wouldn`t com e close to
the power of this!

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > HMTD
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VX March 7th, 2002, 10:51 AM

My frie nd is interested in making some HMTD aga in.
But he has one major problem, he has no Citric acid, and no way of getting any in the foreseeable future. (chemists seem to
be not selling it any more and trea ting you with extreme suspicion when you ask for it .. pro bably due to several people
being arrested for manufa cturing it with terrorists intent over the last fe w month s.) :mad:
Anyway if the H* ions in the citric acid acts as a catalyst for the reaction, why can other common acids not be used, such as
Sulphuric for example. This would be useful to me as I have some of this lying around doing nothing.
Can sulphuric be used or is it crucial that the acid is citric, if so could someone please tell me why as I am very curious, and
web searches have not proven fruitful.
Thanks,
VX :)
BrAiNFeVeR March 7th, 2002, 11:00 AM

Though this has been covered more then enough ...
Since the acid just works as a catalyst when making peroxides, you can use them all !!
I, for one, recommend HCl, since it completely vaporizes while drying, unlike H2SO4, and it is cheap and easy to find.
Edit: Just noticed that the answer is right under your nose (below your thread).
Shame on you !!
[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: BrAiNFeVeR ]
VX March 7th, 2002, 11:17 AM

I know that any acid can be used to manufacture AP, my friend himself has used three different acids to do so.
However i've just re-read the below forum, and nowhere does it say that any acid can be used to make HMTD. Infact the whole
of the internet seems to say that only citric can be used :rolleyes:.
Before trying this method I wanted an answer specific to HMTD and sulphuric acid, so I was sure I was not going to kill myself
or others.
I am curious to know if any acid can be used, why is a weak organic acid used commonly used instaed of of the cheaper,
stronger inorganic acids.
Also how much H2SO4 would be used?
PS: sorry if this seems like a kewl question, I assumed any acid could be used but wanted to be absolutely sure. I can
remember a thread on the old forum which discussed using glacial ethanioc acid, but have never seen it written that a strong
acid can be used as well.
[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: VX ]

what about oxalic acid?
in makeshift arsenal it gives a method for useing HCl but it is vauge and says that its unreliable and doesn't always work.
i tried it once but it failed, i wasn't that precise with the measurements and mixing though.
i think i also tried oxalic acid but it didn't disolve very well or something weird happened, i can't realy remember.
VX March 7th, 2002, 11:51 AM

Thanks for that, i'll look into the oxalic acid method.
I'll still particularly apeciate any info on using strong acids though, if anyone has any that is :)
xoo1246 March 7th, 2002, 11:53 AM

HCl and HTMD is imcopatible, ascorbic
acid too and mineral acids.... stick to citric or concentrated acetic acid.
Ohhh, and I hate that fucking makeshift arsenal.

How to build a fucking rocket launcher? Do you really need a manual to figure out you could put a rocket in a pipe, connect it
to some electrical ignition then put it on you sholder fire and have shrapnel all over your face.
VX March 7th, 2002, 11:57 AM
Ahh brilliant... Just the info I needed, dissapointing though. Oh well i'll have to find one of those then.
Thanks again,
VX
A-BOMB March 7th, 2002, 12:25 PM

What planet are you from zoo?
It is just a catalist in the reaction nothing more. And to this point in many of my "dreams" I used HCL with great success and
the HMTD had a great shelf live of like a year or so, (like 11 months) and still was able to detonate (in the dream it was
stored in a old brown glass budwiser bottle in a coffee can full of sand on a shelf in my old generator shed.
Madog555 March 7th, 2002, 12:37 PM

do you have the ratios and/or method you used?

i Have a method i use for HMTD that uses HCl in my PDF. You can use different cocentrations of HCl and H2O2. You just have
to calculate it.
Download it at http://www.angelfire.com/linux/aleng/

There is a method that uses HCl at Mr cools page aswell!

ok, thx, i think im gona try this out again

I didn't know if this should be under a new topic or not.
I am starting my first batch of HMTD, and still have a question or two.
I was wondering if before I add any citric acid does the H2O2 and hexamine need to be mixed together slow, and cold?
Is there even a reaction between just the H2O2 and hexamine? And does it create heat without any citric acid?
Does HMTD have a trimer and dimer version similar to AP?
Thank you
RTC March 21st, 2002, 12:02 AM

Doesn't really matter what you add to what in my "tests" it's always worked no matter what I added first.
Just as long as there cooled and kept in an ice bath.
00Buckshot March 21st, 2002, 12:14 AM

Thanks for the speedy reply.
Right now I have the H2O2 mixed with the Hexamine, and its cooling in an ice-bath, and the whole thing is being kept in the
freezer.
I didn't notice any rise in temp, so far.
I'm really curious if there is a dimer and trimer version to HMTD?

Would making HMTD without the ice-bath result in a more unstable form of HMTD? And therefore, is it the colder the better?
Thanks
kingspaz March 21st, 2002, 07:26 PM

the ice bath is used to keep the temperature low so there is less risk of a fast reaction creating alot of heat resulting in a
possible explosion. it is also used as the HMTD will be less soluble in a cool solution than a warm one. therefore if cooled you
will get a better yield.
as seen on the picture you can only get one version of HMTD due to the nitrogen having 3 unpaired electrons for bonding.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/hmtd.gif" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/
hmtd.gif</a>
need to copy and paste the link.
[ March 21, 2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Zambosan March 22nd, 2002, 01:09 PM

Kingspaz: I think your GIF of HMTD is a little incorrect; it should look like:
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-

family: monospace;"> (CH2)-O-O-(CH2)
/ \
N-(CH2)-O-O-(CH2)-N
\ /
(CH2)-O-O-(CH2)</pre><hr /></blockquote>You're absolutely right about
there only being one form, however.
kingspaz March 22nd, 2002, 05:27 PM

ahahahahha, i knew i should have checked that diagram!
i found it on the net ages ago, hadn't actually looked at it properly until now! i'd seen it...just not actually took it in and
realised!
thanks
tango March 23rd, 2002, 06:39 AM

This might be a kewl question, but what should my HMTD look like three hrs into the reaction. At the moment it looks like a
cloudy/misty water, cloudy patches throughout the beaker.

It seems allright. After the cloudy phase it schould get a bit clearer and the crystals schould settle at the bottom of the
beaker.
xoo1246 March 23rd, 2002, 08:53 AM

White and cloudy, maybe some powder on the bottom, yes that should be HTMD.
tango March 23rd, 2002, 04:05 PM

I'v just woke up to filter my HMTD and thier is hardly no HMTD, I don't even think it is HMTD. HOW MUCH SHOULD I GET OUT
OF,
100 ML H2O2
2 TEASPOONS OF HEXAMINE
4 TEASPOONS OF citric acid
time left to react: 15 hrs

It just looks like Hexamnine not dissolved
DBSP March 23rd, 2002, 04:57 PM

Whats the conc of your H2O2? I hate measuring things in "tablespoons" and similar I it's a powder the ammount can gety very
wrong using tablespoons. Get a scale!!! There is no way of telling how much you schould end uo with when making HMTD I get
a different ammount every time. With AP it's easier to predict how much you schould end up with.

My H202 is 6%, would you recommend using digital scale?
DBSP March 23rd, 2002, 05:13 PM

Any scale that is accurate enaugh can be used. I use a electronic scale 0-2000g +/- 1g (0-1000g) +/- 2g (1000-2000g). About
a gram +/- is what I expect from a scale. Used for normal things, but if you are weighting smaller ammounts a +/- 0.1g is
required.
I've allways made HMTD with 35% H2O2 so I don't know of what to expect from 6% H2O2.

if your using 6% then leave it a couple of days in the fridge.
what do you mean it looks like the hexamine hasn't dissolved?....maybe it did and what you looking at now is HMTD.
00Buckshot March 23rd, 2002, 06:19 PM

I have had my HMTD mix sitting in the fridge for about 60hrs and still I still have no HMTD cryatals. This is my first time but I
followed directions.
My mixture is very cloudy, but is also very yellow in color. Is the yellow color normal?
I made sure all the hexamine crystals dissolved when I added them.
The only time I didn't follow directions is with the H2O2. I used the 3% and I used 10X's as much to compensate. I
understand this would slow the reaction time but this has been c ouple days now. Next time I will use the 35% I can buy, but
didn't to save a couple bucks.
The entire first day the mixture was in the freezer, and since then has been in my very cold fridge. Do you think I should leave
it sit at room temprature for awhile? Maybe that would speed this reaction up.

add some extra cirtic acid. that should get the reaction going. when you used 10 times more you dilute the acid by 10 times
also which means you need more acid too.
since this is your first time heres some advice:
1. wash your HMTD a few times then neutralise the HMTD by soaking it in bicarb (soidum hyrdrogen carbonate) solution for a
couple of hours. this is very important as it will make your HMTD much safer. it will removed residual acidity which would
remain if only washed. acidity make HMTD much more unstable.
2. avoid all forms of friction. handle it VERY carefully.
3. if you store it, store it damp with water.
4. don't leave it in the sun to dry!

thanx guys i'll do that next i make HMTD. I have filterd the powder out of the mixture, and it's pasty. should it look like that?
Yea i quess that was a stupid question about the HMTD looking like udissolved hexamine.

I'v lit some damp HMTD and it burnt like flash cotten, is this correct.
vonK March 23rd, 2002, 07:50 PM

Tango, it looks to me like your method is crap.
I use - 45ml 6% H2O2
- 2 1/2 teaspoons Hexamine
- 4 1/2 teaspoons citric acid
Yeild is 1 1/2 to 2 teaspoons HMTD.
I never wash my HMTD with bicarbonate solution and have had no problems. I just rinse the reaction jar with tap water and
pour that over the HMTD in the filter then do the same again with meths. The meths makes it fall off the sides of the filter
and clump in the bottom.
I find damp HMTD splutters a bit but dry HMTD makes a nice "THUMP".
Yes It should look a little pastey.

Yes, it does appear pasty if the HMTD is a fine powder.
Seriously, do include the neutralisation step. Personally I only leave it to soak for a few minutes in the bicarb solution and give
it a good stir. I have had an accident with a batch of CTAP that wasn't neutralised, so now I always do it. You might not get
problems with your HMTD process because the citric acid is such a weak acid. Still worth getting into the habit of including a
neutralisation step though for when you start using mineral acids like HCl and H2SO4 as catalysts, rather than citric.
Yikes March 23rd, 2002, 11:24 PM

HMTD can look pasty if there's still some citric acid in it.
If it flashes like 'guncotton' when still wet: don't worry. HMTD will burn that way when it's dry too: perfectly normal. It will
detonate when confined.
00Buckshot March 24th, 2002, 04:09 AM

It has now been a very long time, about 80hrs and I'm pretty sure that HMTD will not form, but I'm not going to dump the mix
yet. Just in case.
I did add more citric acid, an hour later I took it out of the fridge and for the first time the mix sat at room temp. Now the
mixture has turned from murky yellow to a dark red/amber color. And it has bubbles comming up, when I stir the mix it fizzes.
Has anyone made HMTD and seen the mix turn yellow, or red like that?
Is it dangerous to keep the mixture for more than a few days?
tango March 24th, 2002, 04:29 AM

Yes i'v had my 2nd mixture turn from Completly black to lime green.
The colures were very funky

I forget to mention that i added H2SO4 and citric acid into the hexa-peroxide solution, i added alot of each chemical this time
and i have a larg amount of powder forming.

What the hell are you guys doing!
I must have made HMTD about 30 times and not once have I had a colour change.
My H2O2 is colourless, my hexamine is white, my citric acid is white. The solution is colourless except for the HMTD, which is
white (and forms on the bottom and the top of the solution) and a few bubbles.
What are you doing that makes such screwed up colours.
[ March 24, 2002, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: vonK ]
0EZ0 March 24th, 2002, 07:06 AM

Read closely vonK. Many H2SO4 solutions like Drain Opener contain addatives like detergents which would explain the colour.
Am i right?
xoo1246 March 24th, 2002, 07:09 AM

Colored HTMD, good one. :D
No, I would dump it, could be unstable.
Try using citric acid and tell us if you still get colored HTMD.
[ March 24, 2002, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

Hmmm, this is strange, because I am not using any H2SO4 Im using citric acid, hexamine, and H2O2 3%.
Since I took it out of the fridge it turned from yellow, to redish, and this morning it has turned into a vey dark red, almost
black. I think it will be black by this afternoon.
I don't want to dump, just to see if any HMTD will form. Unless someone knows this is risky???
Nobody has had HMTD chage colors? Hmmmm this is my first time, but I did follow directions.

You almost certainly have contaminents. Either introduced by one of your chemicals being impure, or more likely, like did you
use to stir the mixture with?
Whatever the cause, chuck it. You're unlikely to get any precipitate by now and if you did, god knows what kind of sensitizing
contaminents it'd have in it.

Like Xoo says dump it!! I once made a batch of AP when my thermometer broke and the stuff in it went out in the solution. Is
it some kind of alcohol in it?? When it had dryed I testd the sensitivity and it was far greater than usual so i dumped it.

Ok I just dumped it.
I did use a metal kitchen spoon for stirring, if anyone thinks that was the problem.

Don't use metals, or anything reactive to stir it. Preferrably use a glass stirring rod; if that isn't available, then use a plastic
spoon. You probably ended up with contamination by a metal citric acid salt.

the metal could react with either the H2O2 or the acid, likely both!
also, the metal will catalyse the decompostion of the H2O2 decreasing its concentration therefore stopping the reaction
progressing to completion.
EventHorizon March 24th, 2002, 07:42 PM

tango: If I read your post correctly you added BOTH H2SO4 AND citric acid? If that was the case you are most likely getting
some kind of side reaction between the citric and and H2SO4. Try using hexamine, peroxide and HCl, that seems to me the
best way to make it for me as all reactants are liquids. The citric acid method seems to make a less storgae stable product
and the solution is much harder to filter, even with vacuum filtration.

I've made many, many batches of HMTD using citric acid and it works perfectly.
No storage problems at all. I still have some of my very first batch that is nearly three years old.
Why would you need vaccum filtration? HMTD filters fine using common old gravity filtration through a paper towel in a kitchen
funnel.
Citric acid is also dirt cheap in NZ. I get it from any supermarket at around $1 per 100g. Much cheaper than HCL which is $32
per liter at hardware stores.
Tango, where are you getting your H2SO4 from. In my early days I boiled down battery acid but now I get it through an
industrial chem supplier.
I don't think H2SO4 is sold in NZ as a drain opener
kingspaz March 25th, 2002, 10:01 AM

i think HCl is the ideal acid to use in HMTD manufacture because it will evaporate leaving no residue - HCl acid is hydrogen
chloride (boils at about -85*C) dissolved in water, water evaporates along with the hydrogen chloride.
when useing H2SO4, with a MUCH higher boiling point of around 300*C if i remember correctly (which i often don;t!), it will not
evaporate and will remain as an acidic residue in the HMTD = unstable HMTD.

Either method is fine, tho most I think prefer the HCl method. Here I can get 1 qt. (~.95L) for $2.38USD so of course that is
the method to use here, but at $32/L, common sense dictates the use of citric acid. I use vacuum filtration to get every little
bit I can from a batch, mainly because I have the equipment handy.

vonK i got alot of H2SO4, mainly from getting it from car batteries. And yes they don't sell it as Drain poener in NZ, how much
was your HCL and what store did you get it from i'm having problems getting it.

Ah...I already said HCL was $32 per liter at any Hardware store, did you mean H2SO4.
I got my H2SO4 through a cleaning supply store, they had to order it for me as they aren't allowed to store it for more than
three days. I got 10L of 98% H2SO4 for $98.00 .
It came from Andrew Industrial, they also sell acetone, HNO3 and concentrated H2O2.
I told the lady in the store I wanted it for a science fair project, converting wood into methanol as an alternative fuel using the
H2SO4 to break down the lignin that binds the cellulose together. I'm not sure if thats right but it worked a charm and your
free to use the same excuse if you like.

32$ for 1L HCl is extremely expensive. I get it for 3$ a liter, 30%. I've never made HMTD with HCl but I might try it soon.

My first attempt at HMTD failed, it changed colors. I used the cheap 3% H2O2.
Yesterday I made my second attempt at HMTD. This time using 35% H2O2.
Today I found lots of HMTD in the reaction vessel. Success!!
When I thought the reaction was done I washed with sodium bicarbonate twice, and then with pure water twice.
Now my concern is when I took the HMTD out of the coffee filter it was a very thick constincy and it collected into mushy
chunks. I can't break the chunks into powder because its wet. So I think I'll have to crush the chunks of HMTD as it dries? Is it
dangerous to crush the dried HMTD if I do it gentle? How do you do it?
I didn't use any sovents for a fianl wash to speed drying.

if its in chunks then the crystal lattice of each little grain must be merged somewhat. this means as you crush it you break
crystal lattices = possible BOOM! don't do it! throw it away and make a new batch! its not worth the risk.
edit: just thought, let it dry first it may crumble down into a powder. if however it remains in big hard chunks dispose of it.

Any idea why the crystals would merge like that?
I was expecting it to look more like re-crystalized KNO3 which I have more experiance with.
nobody March 26th, 2002, 07:57 PM

I think, this chunks are not crystals. So break them down very carefully with a plasticspoon or something like that when they're
dry. Use small batches, maybe 0,2g. If thish really detonates, it doesn't matter.
EventHorizon March 27th, 2002, 12:24 AM

Use a face shield and heavy leather gloves (ear protection is a good idea too) and roll the "chunks" using a plastic dowel on a
piece of paper. The HMTD powder forms clumps but not big crystals, the trick is to gentley break it all up into powder. A 1/2" or
3/4" teflon rod works great for this. If it doesn't want to powder eaisly, as in gentle pressure, then DON'T force it.
xoo1246 March 27th, 2002, 09:23 AM

I have never had this kind of problem, my HTMD is allways very finely divided. Anyway 0.2 grams of HTMD wont detonate
unconfined.
00Buckshot March 27th, 2002, 09:29 AM

Last night I tested my first HMTD batch. It was my first time ever seeing something that powerful. And it dropped my jaw.
I put my HMTD into 2 paper triangle salutes, each was about the same size as we make our normal traingles with black
powder. We were just hoping that the HMTD would explode the entire triangle, unlike bp which would only blow the trainlge into
a few big chunks.
Well I put one about a foot away from a free in the snow, and was shockd to notice the tree had some bark blasted off of it.
Next one we put right up against a small tree and it shredded it up pretty good.
Im very impressed with HMTD, after last night regular bp will never be the same.

Just wait untill you see the real ones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

xoo: .2g HMTD won't detonate by flame, but WILL by impact/scrape. Trust me, my ears rang for an hour when I was
attempting to do a flame test with one of those long lighters. Was kneeling and got off balance and shoved the end into the
little pile which was on concrete. My flame test turned into a scratch test and a detonation ensued.
Zambosan March 28th, 2002, 01:01 PM

I can't picture that tiny of an amount doing much of anything!

I had a batch of HMTD get out of hand the other night. I used 35% H2O2. It was making loud gurggle noises, and was
steaming heavily. I dumped and flushed it with water as soon as I noticed.
I think it happened because I was rushing. Patience was my problem.
I thought I would speed the reaction time by taking the mix out of the freezer, and ice bath, after about 3 hours. So I let it sit
at room temp.
Then when it warmed up the precipitation of HMTD began, but I again rushed it, by stirring it for a few minutes to speed the
reaction up. The glass was still cold, it seemed fine. Then 30 minutes later it went crazy.
I admit I only have some real experiance with low explosives, and only made HMTD afew times before. This scared me. The
glass was very hot when I dumped, I thought it may even break.
What would have happend if I wasn't around to spot it? Could it explode? Or would it have calmed down in a few minutes?
[ March 28, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: 00Buckshot ]
Yi March 28th, 2002, 06:14 PM

I've had an HMTD reaction react too quickly when I wasn't there. All it did was spray the mixture everywhere and the splashes
also had HMTD crystals on them. It was annoying to clean and that was all. Luckily I don't have anything near beakers that
have reaction mixtures in them.
00Buckshot April 4th, 2002, 11:00 AM

Does anyone have a negative experiance with HMTD?
Has anyone ever had some HMTD explode when you didn't want it to go off?
If you have, please post what happened.
I use citric acid in the reaction. Wouldn't the citric acid be "safer" to use than those stronger acids?
Furthermore, why does it seem that most people choose AP as their peroxide of choice? I don't think AP is safer than HMTD?
Or is it just because people can't get the Hexamine? It seems in the forum, and even the FTP have plenty of info about AP,
which is fine. But what about HMTD?

Reminds me of my first batch of HMTD I made. I used 30% H2O2 for making it. I left it out in the open (t'was wintertime) and
forgot about it for a week.
When I came back to check the result... It was incredible: a huge amount of loong-needled HMTD crystals was waiting for me!
Unfortunately, the cover was blown off and some dirt (dry leaves and stuff) went into the HMTD. I just threw away the whole
batch becasue I was afraid the impurities might have rendered the product unstable. If I could repeate that great result I
wouldn't throw it away again.

Big crystals are bad!
AP does seem to be more common, performance wise there isn't a lot bewteen AP and HMTD, I guess acetone is just easier to
get than hexamine.
Personally I prefer HMTD as it is less volatile.

00Buckshot, i beleive most HMTD accidents result from people not cleaning and neutralising the HMTD properly. this results in
it being very unstable. all HMTD batches should be neutralised with a bicarb solution, and washed in alot of water.
i beleive the best acid for explosive peroxide production is HCl since it will evaporate with the water and not leave an acidic
residue as H2SO4 or citric would. this would result in a much more stable product and therefore greater safety. HMTD has a
larger gas volume produced than AP i think and a similar VoD therefore making it a slightly better explosive. i also beleive it is
slightly less sensitive, although i have no experimental evidence to back this up. its is MUCH more stable in storage and will
last a few months without degrading perfomance significantly.
DBSP April 4th, 2002, 05:17 PM

AP can last months to but if you would compare the two and see wich one that has lost most weight the AP would definately
have lost more weight. I've had AP and HMTD for months and I haven't found them to become more sensitive or anything the
only thing that has happened is that they've lost some of the weight because they are both violate substances.

I just finished a batch of HMTD last night and it worked great!
<img src="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/hmtd.jpg" alt="" />
vonK , thanks for the recipie!
I washed it several times with water, and then a final time with Isopropol Alcohol. When lit, it flashes and makes a nice
THUMP!
I put a small amount (a matchead size pile) of my HMTD on a metal block and struck it a few times with a hammer, after 3
blows, BANG!!!!!
Both of my ears are ringing! damn!
--
P.S: what is all this stuff about a Bicarb solution? My stuff worked fine, being washed by water & Isopropol.
[ April 04, 2002, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

Basically, after filtering and rinsing your AP/HMTD you dump it into a few percent sodium bicarbonate solution to neutralise it,
you then filter it out, rinse again and then let dry as normal.
Rat Bastard April 5th, 2002, 01:34 AM

Thanks anthony. Now one thing, when HMTD burns, it burns fast and flashes like flash cotton. And when you strike it, it seems
to Detonate (DAMN it was loud! next time ill wear ear protection). Now if I had a paper triangle salute filled with HMTD with a
visco fuze, is it actually detonating?, or is it just burning and acting like normal compositions like Black Powder (only better).
Im kinda confused about this detonating/burning thing with HMTD.

.
.
P.S: I added a pic of my HMTD in my previous post.
[ April 05, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

When struck HMTD will detonate. When ignited - spark, flame etc it will deflagerate like a low explosive such as BP. If there is
sufficient confinement (a layer of tissue paper is enough) then the HMTD will make the deflageration-to-detonation transition
and detonate just like when struck. So yes, the HMTD in crackers does detonate.

And if it's a lumb of it or AP and the size of it is a bit larger than a pea it can detonate if a flame is put to it because of the
selfconfinement.
00Buckshot April 8th, 2002, 12:46 PM

Ok thanks for those tips.
I have have a few more questions about HMTD.
I try to keep the mix in the freezer until the reaction is done. However for some reason the reaction will not even start if its
kept in the freezer.
Then after about 48hrs, I usually take it out of the freezer and let it sit at room temp. The temp rises and the reaction starts,
and then every time it goes crazy, boils and steams. So I add some water to dilute it, then I must put it back in the freezer to
cool it. Otherwise it gets hot.
Im using 35% H2O2, and none of the methods I've seen give good ratios for 35% and citric acid?
Is this because I'm using 35% H2O2? Maybe I'm using to much acid? Does this happen with AP? Maybe I should switch to
making AP?

Just use simple algebra to solve for the amount.
jin April 8th, 2002, 06:34 PM

you may have probelms geting citric acid from chemists in the uk because its used to purify heroin before injecting so some
chemists will not sell it anymore.
0EZ0 April 8th, 2002, 11:08 PM

I have never had a problem obtaining Citric Acid. I get it from the local supermarket in a shaker container for use in cooking. I
found it in the spices section.
tango April 9th, 2002, 03:03 AM
I find it really easly to obtain Citric acid, if they ask you what you want it for, just say you want to make some sherburt
because that's the main ingrediant.
[ April 09, 2002, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: tango ]

Citric acid is getting harder to find here in Canada. A year ago it was available everywhere. Now I can only get it at one drug
store. In the bulk barn they keep trying to tell me that absrobic acid is the same as citric acid, just a different name. The thing
I don't get is if citric acid is used for food and drinks, why wouldn't it be in the grocery store, and not the pharmacy?
Anyways May 24 will be here soon. Im going camping as usual, and I want to bring some HMTD into the deep bush. Its about
6 hours by car, and 3 hours of those are bumpy and rough dirt road. I'm a little nervous about transporting the HMTD, I figure
I'll keep it in the center of a cardboard box filled with tissue paper around it to cushion it. That should keep it safe? Or should
my priority be to keep it cool? Should I keep the whole thing in a cooler? With cold packs?
A_W April 9th, 2002, 10:43 AM

I`m considering to start making HMTD. I have NO experience with high explosives, and I thought it sounded as a good
explosive to start out with. It recuires no dangerous chemicals, (3%H2O2 is not dangerous, according to my encyclopedia
hexamine is not poisonus, and citric acid is used for food) wich I like after my bad experiences with the nitrocellulose prosess.
:(
I hope to make very small quantitys (under 1/2 teaspoon) wich I plan to pour into a cardboard cartridge and set off with a
small firecracker or simply a fuze. I will try it as soon as I can get the chemicals.
Edit: I never had any problems getting citric acid here in Norway. It is sold at supermarkets and is used in many sorts of food
(it is also used for making wine, I think)
[ August 30, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: A_W ]

why don't you press out an lemon? than you got Citric Acid(i don't use the juice, i use a sort of crystalls buyed at the
Drugstore)

Citric acid is indeed available for home brewing.
Buckshot, it might be better to take the precursors with you and make the HMTD or AP on site? It'd save the hassle of safely
transporting and storing it and you could make it up as you need. Or dissolve it in a solvent, or soak with water or alcohol and
evaporate the solvent/wetting agent, to recover the HMTD.
00Buckshot April 9th, 2002, 12:24 PM

The idea of preparing it on site isn't to good for me, because we are pretty busy fishing and doing other camping stuff. Also I
don't want to make it drunk with many distractions.
But the idea about dissolving it in a liquid sounds good. However I don't want to use water, because it would dry slow, and I
don't want to use the sun to dry it.
So I guess I'd use acetone? I don't have access to the type of alcohol recomended in the chem lab for drying HMTD. If I did
use acetone would it dry clean and neutral pH? Or do would I wash it with the sodium bicarbonate and then dissolve in the
acetone?
Also everything I read says HMTD is very heat sensative. Well you know how if you leave you're car in the sun with the windows
up, it becomes a sauna in there? Would that set HMTD off? or would that just degrade the explosive power tof the HMTD?
Thanks
Buckshot

I'd say ingition temperature of HMTD and AP is going to be at least, or around 100*C, sunlight and hot cars shouldn't be a
worry. Unless your HMTD/AP is for some reason (contamination etc) more sensitive than it should be. High ambient
temperatures may well make HMTD/AP, like other explosives, more sensitive.
The HMTD/AP will need to be pure and neutralised before it goes into the acetone. The acetone will evaporate completely and
leave everything behind, that includes and contaminants.
I got to ask though, if you're going to be too lashed to make HMTD, are you going to be capable of handling and using the
finished product safely?

Sunlight certainly can detonate quantities of even unconfined HMTD. I've seen a picture of the aftermath before... I'd link to it
if I could remember where it was. I wouldn't want to leave it in a hot car.

If it was these ones:
<img width=400 height=300 src="http://www.xinventions.com/main/pyro/images/hmtd_boom.gif">

<img src="http://www.xinventions.com/main/pyro/images/hmtd_boom2.gif" alt="" />
Then it was the Xinventions place. IMO the guy doesn't really know what he's doing and his forum is over-run with kewls. I
haven't heard of anyone here having found properly washed and neutralised HMTD or AP to be sensitive to sunlight.
[ April 09, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]
A_W April 10th, 2002, 12:23 PM

How do I make a good ice bath for HMTD manufacture? Back when I was making nitrocellulose I just glued a small glass
vessel into a glass bowl. The problem with this is that it does not chill the bottom of the reaction vessel. As the ice bath is for
HMTD, I really want it to cool the bottom to.
Yi April 10th, 2002, 12:37 PM

Get a small ice box (ie, those things you take to picnics), fill it with ice put your beaker in there & close the lid. It will take the
ice approx 20hours to melt.
A_W April 10th, 2002, 03:38 PM

Are you sure that the beaker (reaction vessel) does not have to be attatched to the ice bath container in any way? There is a
chanse of the beaker tipping over inside the icebath when the ice melts if the beaker is smaller than the ice bath container.

One thing you can do to keep it from tipping over is filling the ice bath with paper or something similar or rapping it arround
the reaction vessel.
nbk2000 April 10th, 2002, 11:39 PM

I've used a large piece of styrofoam with a hole cut in the center. This floats in the water and will always keep the flask upright
and above water.
A_W April 11th, 2002, 12:40 PM

When I hear about people dumping their HMTD for some reason, I tought that it would be safer to have a chemical
neutralizing the HMTD into harmless chemical(s) rather than dumping it into the woods or flushing it down the sink. Is there
such a chemical and is it easy available?

Talking of HMTD:
Whenever I dream of making a detcap with HMTD as a primary I get worried because of the wires touching/being embedded in
HMTD and thus a possible reaction of the nichrome or lightbulb wire. Usually I fill a piece of plastic straw with Armstrong's
mixture in which I embedd the bulb wire. The straw in turn is being iserted in the much wider, plastic coated detonator whose
top is being filled with some HMTD. So the Armstrong sets off the HMTD and that goes straight to my favorite, TNP.
I did make a couple of HMTD batches but I am still somewhat fearful of that substance. Could anyone tell me if HMTD
generally is more or less sensitive as Armstron's when it comes down handling the dry stuff?
A-BOMB April 11th, 2002, 07:21 PM

You use Armstrongs mix to set off the HTMD <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> what are you nuts?
S. Toppholzer April 12th, 2002, 05:09 AM

excuse my ignorance - I was thinking of possible side reactions caused by HMTD getting i direct contact with the igition wire.
The amount of Armstrong's used is pretty small - if wetted down to a claylike mass you might have the amount of maybe half
a pea.
But I have been thinking again about the question of sensitivity of HMTD. I guess it mus be less sensitive than Armstrongs
since if one tried filling a toy revolver cap with HMTD insead with Armstrong's I am pretty sure the HMTD won't explode.
VX April 12th, 2002, 06:17 AM

I've just come back from the chemist from where I bought some citric acid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif"
/> , however it's kept behind the counter. When i asked the assistant for it the look on her face was one of real shock, she
stood there in silence as if not knowing what to do. Just then the actual pharmacist came running from around the back and
asked me why I wanted citric acid!! Although caught somewhat off guard buy this I managed to come up with a story that must
have convinced them i was neither a terrorist, or anarchist, and eventually she gave me the small 50g box of citric. Apparently
they now have to ask what customers want it for, and must limit its sale....although she wouldn't say why.
This must be some sort of result of the large no. of people arrested recently for trying to make HMTD in this country.
I thought this was worth a mention as they seemed pretty concerned and I imagine that the restriction is country wide. <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
nbk2000 April 12th, 2002, 07:27 AM

Next thing you know they'll be spraying the orange groves of florida with agent orange (pun) to eradicate "the scourge of
citrus".
Lemons will be by license only, with strict sales on this important "precursor".
Lemonade will be banned as being a ready supply of material aid to terrorists.
:rolleyes: :D

<a href="http://www-weapons.desert-storm.com" target="_blank">http://www-weapons.desert-storm.com</a> Link to the pic.
And that page was don in 2 secs didn't have time for frontpage. So don't call me a Kewl
This was the final colour change, first when all ingrediances were mixed it changed from red to lime green then finally to the
dark orange as shown in the picture.
This is an effect of mixing dirty H2SO4 and citric acid into an Hexaperoxide solution.
100 ml of H202
2 Table spoons of Hexamine
20 ml of H2S02
2 Table spoons of Citric acid
And yes i know it was stupid, the the HMTD still worked.
p.s sorry about the way the picture is i had problems loading the page.
[ April 13, 2002, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: tango ]

Hey Tango, is that after you filtered out the HMTD or is it still in there?
If it's still in there it's not much of a yeild.
Also, where did you get the beaker. Is it "borrowed" or did you buy it somewhere?
And where are you getting your H2O2?, if you don't know already hydroponics stores sell 50% H2O2 at $49.00 for 2L.

Vonk the HMTD isn't filtered, and yea it was a poor yeild. (i used 6% H202)
I nicked the beaker from the science lab hehe, and i planning on getting alot so if you want buy a few just e-mail me dude.
p.s thanx for the TIP on where to buy the H202 :)
EventHorizon April 13th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Helvetica">
I've just come back from the chemist from where I bought some citric acid , however it's kept behind the counter. When i
asked the assistant for it the look on her face was one of real shock, she stood there in silence as if not knowing what to do.
Just then the actual pharmacist came running from around the back and asked me why I wanted citric acid!! Although caught
somewhat off guard buy this I managed to come up with a story that must have convinced them i was neither a terrorist, or
anarchist, and eventually she gave me the small 50g box of citric. Apparently they now have to ask what customers want it for,
and must limit its sale....although she wouldn't say why.
<hr /></blockquote>I got some citric a while ago, but I think I got a
bit much....5# (2,268g). :D LOL HCl works better tho.
As far as wires in the HMTD is concerned, I'....errr....a friend has made some HMTD caps and stored them for over 6 months
with no problem. They even taped them to the end of a 4' dowel and struck them repeatedly against a wall until the plastic
containers they were in split without setting off the HMTD.
A_W April 14th, 2002, 03:03 PM

Will wet (not damp) HMTD detonate unconfined if initiated with a small firecracker? I really don`t feel like drying the HMTD
completely the first time(s) I make it.

I think it's very insensitive to flame even when slightly damp.

This could be the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide. How pure is your hexamine and how old is it? If it has decomposed
a little bit, there will be ammonia in the solution which will immediatly start decomposing the hydrogen peroxide.
Also, in which order do you add the reactants?
tango April 15th, 2002, 10:38 PM

My Hexamine is pure i guess, i got ot from a camping shop.(don't know how pure that is though)The Hexamine is new, they
had to order it for me. I think my H2SO4 had small peices of Al in it as i got it from a car battery, that could one reason for
the strange colour.
Zambosan April 16th, 2002, 09:37 AM

Doubt it's aluminum... sulfuric would oxidize the aluminum to Al2S04 (aluminum sulfate, alum) pretty quickly, methinks.
A_W April 16th, 2002, 11:01 AM

The pieces in your acid is not Al, but probably pieces from the electrodes, wich is lead and lead dioxide.

please would answer anybody this question:
I learned that HMTD shouldn't come in contact with metals.
What about the ignition/bridge/lightbulb wire?
Any dangerous substances that could form there that would propagate premature detonation?
If so: How do you handle that problem?
[ April 16, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]
xoo1246 April 16th, 2002, 02:41 PM

Metals can decompose HTMD, If enough heat is built up then you could get a premature detonation. Maybe this isn't likley to
occur(especially with a thin wire), but it's better to be safe(r) then sorry, right? I would suggest you use some ignition
composition around your wire, enclosed in a small (non metallic)container.

thanks, xoo - exactly what I thought. Makes me wonder why A-Bomb was so astonished about the way I'm igniting HMTD. A
small amount of Armstrong's Powder (extracted from toy caps) in a straw wherin a lightbulb wire is embedded. that piece of
straw (leghth approx 1,5 cm) sits inside the tube where the HMTD is. Can't see what's wrong with it. I realized Armstrong's very
sensitive when it comes down to friction - but so is HMTD. AS long as I am avoiding this... hell, I carried a bunch of these
Armstrong's initial caps (only the straws comlete with the lightbulb wire) in my car for more than a year.

That's it, lead in the solution -> heavy metals decompose H2O2 already in trace amounts.
Why could someone be making all that fuzz about citric acid? In Europe you can buy it in 50- 350g quantities in supermarkets
to remove CaCO3 from coffeemachines. My mother uses it all the time for that purpose. Damn, just press a few lemons and
pour it into the reaction vessel! :D
xoo1246 April 16th, 2002, 03:27 PM

Sure, both of them are friction sensitive, I have no experience from Armstrong's mixture, but I have heard it's really
sensitive(ignites when your snap your fingers with it on them). You could use simple blackpowder in that straw, or like me,
take a box of (saftey)matches, hit their heads with a pestle, they fall apart, collect them and then soak them with aceton(to
avoid ignition by friction), then grind them up. When it dries you have a easy to ignite powder sutible for your purposes.
(potassium chlorate and antimony trisulfide). A large box gives six grams if I'm not misstaken. Those little fellows when
sealed propperly explodes instantly when you press the switch and have never failed me (yet).
Edit: I agree with you vulture, it's a sick world we live in when people belive you are a terrorist when you buy citric acid. I have
never been asked questions about my purposes when buying any chemicals ever. The only question I got once, was if I new
how to handle 35% H2O2 safely.
[ April 16, 2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]

According to Improvised Primary Explosives, dry HMTD will react with: aluminium, copper, brass, zinc, antimony, iron and lead.
So nichrome wire (nickel and chromium) *should* be ok, however the copper in the wires you use to connect the bridge will not
be. Neither will it be if you use a strand of steel wool for a bridge.

That may not be an exhaustive list. I'd just err on the side of caution and assume HMTD reacts with all metals.
xoo1246 April 16th, 2002, 05:23 PM

Another possible solution is to dip the wire in NC, although it doesn't really mather.
Sparky April 17th, 2002, 10:37 PM

The following is a dream
I tried making hmtd about a two weeks ago by Megalomania's synthesis and failed. I was wondering why it didn't work, maybe
someone could suggest something?. I made half of the amount on Mega's page. A Long winded, detailed description of what I
did follows...(written the day after so it should be accurate in that regard):
I measured out 7 grams of Hexamine (esbit tablets). I put the hexamine in a plastic bag and crushed it in a vice to make a
coarse powder so it would dissolve faster. Then I measured 13 grams of citric acid. This is slighly more than called for because
I read on The Forum that more acid should be used for making acetone peroxide when the hydrogen peroxide concentration is
low, I assumed the same for HMTD. Then I measured out 125 ml of 6% hydrogen peroxide because Mega recommends 50 ml
of 30% H2O2. I measured with a large syringe. Then I made a concentrated solution of salt water to make salt-ice cubes out
of for my ice bath. I put all the ingredients in the fridge and the salt water in the freezer of course. It turns out the ice bath
was around -3 degrees.
Then 2 days later I used a fire extinguisher (it was handy! :) ) and a pot to crush some of the ice (salt water ice crushes easier
than regular ice) to give a better contact with the container (a Pyrex measuring cup), then I put the ice in a Tupperware
container. I used all clean glass ware in the reaction vessel so there were no contaminants from that area. I nestled the
measuring cup in the ice bath and poured the hydrogen peroxide in. Then I measured the temperature at around 2 degrees
C. I left the thermometer in and added the hexamine kinda slowly, stirring carefully with my rod so as not to hit the
thermometer. When it was all in and I think most of it was dissolved (hard to tell). I added the citric acid slowly. There was no
noticeable rise in temperature as I added the acid. I stirred for about seven minutes after all the stuff was added together and
noticed no change. There were white crystals floating on top of the mix that I assume were non- dissolved hexamine. I came
back three hours later and took the solution out of the bath. It had gone down to around minus 2 C but wasn't frozen or
anything. It sat out of the bath in the room for two hours. When I came back nothing had changed except the temperature
had gone up to around 13 C. The tiny amount of white crystals were still on top. I filtered them, washed them in a baking
soda solution then dried them out. I left them on the coffee filter because there was so little. When I came back today I
burned the filters and the white powder melts but does not do anything as the filter smolders away (it does not burn like a
normal coffee filter). I think the filter might be smoldering instead of burning because of baking soda on it.
I later tried a procedure detailed by somone who posted about their first batch of HMTD and said it worked. I got some HMTD
but unfortunately the procedure used volume measurement.
For even newer newbies than myself that might read this, I have some details on my site (http://pyropage.50megs.com) that
will help if you want to make it but I left them out because they aren't relevant in this post.

Did you only leave the solution to react for 2 hours?
If using 6% H2O2 you will need to leave it for at least 24 hours.
Also your hexamine and citric acid should easily dissolve in the H2O2.
It might have been me that posted the procedure using volume.

45ml H2O2.
2 1/2 teaspoons hexamine.
4 1/2 teaspoons citric acid.
Thats the way I always do it (scaled up though) and it has worked every time for about 30 batches.
I keep it in an ice bath the whole time and stir it for half an hour after everthing has dissolved then stick it in the fridge for 24
hours.
Yeild is about two teaspoons.
My next batch however will be made with 50% H2O2 and HCL, I'm wondering if all the hexamine will dissolve in this conc of
H2O2 or will I need to dilute it.
Kurt.

Buck: I am using 25% H2O2 as well - just the last batch I made up last week wasn't reacting at all - same problem as you
had. I took it out of the freezer and added a knifetip full of citric acid. This seemed to have started the reaction.
I always used 35% H2O2 - and the way it seems one needs more acid if you keep the stuff in the freezer. If you'd use the
same amounts and put it in the fridge the reaction would surely start. At least that's what I noticed.
@ Sparky:
I am using Esbit, too. The white stuff floating on top of the solution are impurities, aka binder material. Some say it's wax, I
belive it's some sort of plastic. Anyway: the best method might be crushiung up just a bit more than the recommended
amount of Hexamine coming from Esbit fuel tablets (compensating the amount of filler), adding just al little bit more of the
given amount of H2O2 (compensates for loss of H2O2 at the filtering process) and filter the now dissolved Hexamine along
with the impurities through a white coffee filter into the reaction vessel you want to use.
Thus you dissolved and purifed pretty easy.
I for my part crush all Esbit bars up at once, add just enough hot water so that all will dissolve, filter it and re-crystallize it by
putting the solution into an empty lightbulb which is placed on top of a candle. After a while it starts to boil happily. As soont
there is almost no water left on top of the crytals that settle at the bottom, I filter them and put them on a sheet of paper
which rests over an enclosed 25W lightbulb. As soon as the Hexamine cake becomes really dry, I crush it up and store the
powdered hexamine in a plastic zip-lock bag.
[ April 18, 2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]

I also use to make HMTD using Esbit. The impurities are only present in minor amounts, so I didn't remove them at all. Up to
now I didn't have any problems with these impurities in my HMTD, but if I ever did I would regard S. Toppholzer's removal
method as the best one. Though, I wouldn't adjust the amounts: The amount of hexamine is a bit less than the amount of
Esbit, and some H2O2 stays in the filter. Thus it would be easier to adjust the amount of the last remaining ingredient used,
which is a catalyst. Since I always use more acid than necessary (I use HCl, with good results) this doesn't matter, too.
Adjusting the amounts of chemicals wouldn't be a disadvantage, of course.
[ April 20, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Rhadon ]

Just yesterday I made another batch of HMTD - it was remarkable.
I had some eight grams of citric acid left and decided to use that. Since the acid crytals were pretty big I had the strange idea
in dissolving them in a bit of boiling water and then recrystallize 'em. I found out that this won't work since after almost all of
the water evaporated over a low flame, the stuff became like a syrup - like honey.
I poured this syrup on a ceramic platter and after it cooled, I crushed the stuff up until it was like face powder. I was heating
this stuff in an empty light bulb so I decided to leave the acidic residue inside, added 35% H2O2 to it plus the rest of the
powdered acid. The whole process was somewhat strange because I didn't do any calculation regarding how much H2O2 or
hexamine I would have to add. Just did it by guessing. After the citric acid dissolved, I slowly added approx. 12 or 13 grams of
hexamine. Initially, I didn't cool the mixture while adding the hexamine. After a while though I realized it was getting
somewhat warm, so I put the vessel in an ice/salt bath to dissolve the rest securely. After about fifteen (!) Minutes, lots of
crystals started to percipiate (sp?) and just to be sure that this wasn't unreacted hexamine I added a small amount of H2O2.
The crytals dissapeared for another ten minutes and reappered then. I decided just to put that stuff (the ice in the icebath bas
already melted) in the fridge (approx 4C). Two hour later I checked again and to my utter astonishment there was almost no
liquid left in the lightbulb which itself was half filled of HMTD!
I just sucked up a little bit with a plastic syringe, washed with water and bicarb, left it to dry. Upon touching the dried HMTD with
a burning cigarette, it went off extremely fast.
I washed the whole stuff twice with water and then with a bicarb solution and put it into the glass bulb in some water wher it
rests now. I had some loss - but the bulb ist still almost half full.
My only question regarding my strange making of HMTD:
How dangerous is mixing the reactants together without properly measuring them?

*

Helvetica">HMTD is slightly more powerful than AP...<hr /></blockquote>Is it really? At least the detonation velocity of AP is slightly higher than that of HMTD, if I remember correctly.
Perhaps this is just a question of how you define "powerful".

by power he means the amount of gasses produced by it. for example ethly nitrate has a high VOD but is not very powerful at
all, and PETN is more powerful than RDX but has lower VOD.
0EZ0 April 27th, 2002, 10:25 PM

An explosive with a high VOD has a more shattering effect. That is why ANFO with a low VOD of around 3500/4000ms
(depending on density of charge) has a heaving effect and is perfect for earth-moving applications.
10fingers April 28th, 2002, 01:34 AM

*

On Mr Cool's site I found these ratios for HMTD manufacture with HCL:
225mL of 6% hydrogen peroxide solution,

150mL of 15% hydrochloric acid,
20g of hexamethylenetetramine,
Since I have 32%HCL and only 3%H2O2 I converted the ratios to:
 H2O2;
100 ml of 3%= 3ml h2o2
225ml of 6%= 13,5ml H2O2
---------> 450ml 3%= 13,5ml H2O2</li> HCL;
150ml of 15%= 22,5ml HCL
---------> 150/(32/15)= 70,3125ml
70,3125ml of 32%= 22,5ml HCL
</li>Can anyone tell me if these ratios will work if using the same
amount of hexamethylenetetramine :confused: , or will the concentration of H2O2 be too low for a decent reaction?
[ April 28, 2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Celtick ]

I never use a scale nowadays. I just add plenty of H2O2 (35%) about 50ml. Then after I mix in the hex, I mix in about twice
that amount of citric acid. The reaction never works for me if I leave it in the freezer. Maybe if I leave it in the freezer for a
couple days it would work, but I just use the fridge.
I want to try the Hcl method because it would be easier to mix compared to citric acid. But I wonder "if" someone was in a
situation where they couldn't wash the HMTD, which acid would be safer?
In my tests I noticed a HUGE difference in "power" depnding on how dry the HMTD is. I place my wet HMTD on newspapers to
speed dry it. I don't use the methanol. Just change the wet newspapers every 20 minutes or so and it will be dry in a few
hours. But there is a big difference between "almost" dry HMTD, and "bone" dry HMTD. Example for me is a filled a film
container with almost dry HMTD, and it blasted the bark off a tree, but thats it. Then with fully dry HMTD I destroyed a similar
tree with half the amount of HMTD. The slightly damp stuff apeared dry to the touch, but it pays off to make sure it is 100%
dry. If its not 100% dry it is still much more powerful than black powder, but the dry stuff will fully detonate. I wedged the
corner of a paper triangle salute into a rotting stump and blew it apart with about a gram of dry HMTD. Im rambling.
I read somewhere in the ftp or maybe it was that rec.pyro forum that a mix of 50:50 HMTD/AN will work pretty good. Anyone
tested this? Or would it just be better to use the HMTD as a cap to start pure AN or some AN mix? I was planning on a film
container full of the 50:50 mix, I figured it would be more stable then pure HMTD, but would it be more or less powerful?
Thanks
A_W April 28th, 2002, 02:54 PM

I have finally got my hands on some H2O2. I found it on a pharmacy, and the lady who worked there was very friendly and not
suspicious at all. She said that they had 3%, 6% and 10%. I was not sure what to buy; 6% or 10%, but I bought the 6%, since
it is the most common to use (except from maybe 30%)
Anyways, I have now started the manufacture of my first high explosive ever; a small batch of HMTD! (all of my newbie
questions lately have finally payed off!!) Since this is the first time I make such an explosive, I cut the ratios down, and the
recipe was not followed exactly.
The original ratios are follows: 9 teaspoons 6% H2O2, 4 1/2 teaspoons of citric acid, and 2 1/2 teaspoons of hexamine. (yes,
I know: volume bad--weight good, but I don`t have a scale, and teaspoons are so much easier! A proper teaspoon is about 5
ml. I have small plastic spoon used to measure spices, wich is 1 ml. I used this one in stead of a teaspoon to cut down on the
amounts. I used 4 1/2 "spice spoons" (not sure what they are called) of citric acid, 2 1/2 of hexamine and 9 peroxide.
According to my calculations; this would yield approx. 2 ml of HMTD, wich is perfect. Yes, I am aware that this will be a very
small batch of HMTD, but this is exactly what I want.
All of the additions went really well. When the temp. had fallen to 5*c, I found that it would be safe to start adding the
hexamine. At first, I was really nervous, and added it in REALLY small portions. I stirred with a thermometer, and what I
noticed was that the temperature was actually falling. Even when I started adding the acid, the temperature still kept falling.
For an ice bath I used a plastic container with a lid. The reaction vessel itself was an ordinary glass bowl. The ice-bath was
filled with 1 litre of crushed ice and some water. It is now about 40 min. into the reaction, and the whole thing is being kept
outdoors. The temperature is still around 2-3*c.
I`ll take pictures, but since I don`t have a digital camera, I may not get to post them ever. Any tips or comments on my little
project? I can`t wait to test the final stuff!! :D
[ April 28, 2002, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: A_W ]
A_W April 29th, 2002, 02:48 AM

I just woke up this morning, and went out to check my reaction. Success!! White HMTD is lying on the bottom of the reaction
vessel. :D And this was after only 11 hrs. I think I`ll leave it for a few days to get maximun yield.

what will happen if you light a 3metre or more?(organic peroxides) would it just burn with an enormous speed, or will it
detonate?
maybe a nice test :) anyway, i will do something with detcord.

I made another batch of HMTD - again.
Funny - if I melt the citric acid first and then dissolve it at room temperature with H2O2 and then adding hexamine in tiny
batches slowly the crytallisation process sets in within ten minutes. I also found out that the yield seemingly isn't affected if I
store the finished mix afterwards in a fridge or leave it at ambient temperature.
This time though after completely drying the HMTD, I found out that its burning speed is considerably lower than average. I
guess there's still some unreacted hexamine in it.
Would it be dangerous mixing up another H2O2/citric acid mix and add the powder again to react the leftover hexamine?
Talking of det. velocities - could HMTD be used for making a shaped charge or is that substance's det. velocity too slow for
that?
Would HMTDAN work for that? I somewhat doubt it.
[ April 30, 2002, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: S. Toppholzer ]
Demolition April 30th, 2002, 06:18 AM

HMTDAN will work for shaped charges.Have a look in the ANAP thread,Yi has a link to his website where he tested a shaped
charge using HMTDAN with good results.

Hey, thanks!
A_W May 1st, 2002, 09:50 AM

When I had filtered out the HMTD, I thougt; what the hell. I`ll just pour some NaHCO3 sol. into the funnel with the HMTD still
in it.
It bubbled over in the funnel, and I lost the small amount I had managed to filter out. Damn! :mad:
However, this was due to my own stupidity. I have now started my second batch, wich I have to find another way of
neutralizing.
mr.evil May 1st, 2002, 10:47 AM

i just wash my HMTD,i never neutralize it with NaHCO3. Never had any problems with it.
A_W May 1st, 2002, 11:02 AM
Yes, that sounds alot easier and quite tempting, but earlier in the thread, someone said that the explosive will be very
sensitive and unstable if not neutralized properly. I think I`ll stick to neutralizing it until I have some experiance with the
explosive.
00Buckshot May 1st, 2002, 07:10 PM

To neutralize I use the coffee filter as a tea bag, and just hold under the tap for a minute or so, then I dunk the tea bag into
the bicarb mix a few times making sure that all the bubbles stop. Then I hold it under the tap again for a minute.
A_W May 2nd, 2002, 10:32 AM

Thanks alot, 00Buckshot! Great idea! :D I never would have thought of that. My HMTD has now been reacting for about 30 hrs,
and there is a large amount (compared to the small amounts of HP/Hex/CA I used) of white powder in the reaction vessel. I
will try your method when the reaction has completed.
A_W May 2nd, 2002, 03:10 PM

I have now filtered out the HMTD, and neutralized it (again, I wish to thank 00buckshot for the very good method). I have
done some small tests, by putting some (approx 1-2 match-heads) of the MHTD/water paste on a long broomstick. The paste
is left to dry. Then, the end of the broomstick is slammed agains a wall. It made a loud crack. The wet HMTD burned like
nitrocellulose when ignited unconfined.

A_W, 'I think I`ll stick to neutralizing it until I have some experiance with the explosive.'
that seems to imply your not going to neutralise it when you have experience. just make sure u allways neutralise it. that way
you'll live to 60 and have all your fingers!
vonK May 3rd, 2002, 05:58 AM

A_W, your HMTD sounds rather impact sensitive (to me anyway).
When I make HMTD it won't go off due to impact while it is still wet, and even when it is dry it takes one hell of a thump with a
hammer on a brick, more often than not the brick breaks before the HMTD does.
I'd like to know other peoples experiences with HMTD's impact sensitivity.
Just for the record, I personaly never neutralize my HMTD (I use citric acid) and have never had any problems with accidental
ignition, I just rinse it with tap water and meths.

I'd imagine even a small rap with a hammer would set it off! Organic peroxides are notoriously sensitive in all the literature.
A_W May 3rd, 2002, 01:45 PM

Thanks kingspaz. From now on, I will always neutralize my HMTD properly.
When neutralizing the previous batch of HMTD, I dipped the filterpaper into the NaHCO3 bath, but had to hold it there by
hand. This took very long time, so I figured that the neutralization was only necessary if it was to be stored over time, so I
aborted the neutralization process after a few minutes, while it was still acidic. I don`t know if this made the explosive more
sensitive, or if it has to go some time.
vonK: The HMTD was left to dry, until it was only a little moist (much of the water was absorbed through the wooden stick). The
stick was slammed pretty hard to a concrete wall, so I (but I don`t know much about primarys) don`t find it very sensitive, for
a primary that is.
Today I tried to detonate a larger (but still a small) amount of HMTD. The paste was poured on a cardboard sheet, and left do
DRY COMPLETELY. I put a fuse on the explosive, and another cardboard sheet over that, wich was pressed GENTLY on the
explosive, and attatched with some tape. I figured that this would be enough confinement, so I went up into the woods, lit the
fuse, expected a boom that never came. When I went to check, I first thought that the fuse had gone out, but I found all of
the HMTD to be gone. The charge seemed to have to little confinement. My next charge will probably be loaded into a small
cracker. Can the HMTD be loaded into the cracker when still wet?
Finally; can someone tell me how much in teaspoons 1 gram of HMTD is?
kingspaz May 3rd, 2002, 06:15 PM

A_W, there is not answer to that question. HMTD is a powder so has a variable density since it contains air spaces. compressed
HMTD weiging more per teaspoon than uncompressed HMTD. this means everytime you take a teaspoon of HMTD it will be a
different mass.
you really should invest in some cheap scales or make a mass balance which i've been told can be made to measure very
accurately.
A_W May 4th, 2002, 02:46 PM

Oh, I see. I have thought of that, but I never thought it would make that much difference if it was pressed or not.
The reason I asked, is because of a picture from the makeshift arsenal. It showed the massive damage done to a metal bird
feeder by a 2.5 gram charge of HMTD. As I don`t really know how much 2.5 grams is, I wanted to know how much of the
explosive needed in volume to make such damage. A rough estimation would be good enough.
ok, according to chemistry of powder and explosives its density after being lightly tapped is 0.66g/cm^3 therefore i would
expect the loose powder to be around 0.5g/cm^3.
one level table spoon is about 5cm^3 so:
0.5*5 = 2.5g
so its about one level table spoon full of HMTD or 5ml.
A_W May 5th, 2002, 10:07 AM

Thanks kingspaz. If that damage was caused by 1 tablespoon, I`d like to set off a full coke-can of HMTD :)
Today, I filtered out another batch of HMTD. (the explosive is so easy to make, it has become nearly routine to make it every
2-3. days)
Anyways, I did some (routine) impact tests with the good old broomstick. A quantity the size of half a pea, made a deafening
bang (when I was 1 meter from it). Then I decided to try to set some of it off with a fuze. I poured a pea-size (maybe slightly
larger) pile of HMTD paste on some duct-tape, inserted a fuze, and left it to dry (not completely though). I wrapped the duct
tape around the explosive, and went up into the woods to set it of. I tried this procedure twice, without any detonation. What
did I do wrong? Does it have to dry completely? (it was as dry as the explosive set off with the broomstick, wich again was
damp) Is duct-tape not enough confinement?
I have now used up all of my HMTD, so I guess I`ll have to start another batch now.

It's because it's harder for the HMTD to make the deflageration to detonation transition when it is wet or damp.
To get an idea of how impact sensitive it can be, try metal-on-metal. Place the sample on an anvil, thick steel plate etc and
tap it with a hammer. It only takes a drop of a few inches with a regular hammer to detonate the sample in this fashion.

don;t set off a coke can full! thats insane. all it takes is the can slips out of your hand and your missing half a leg.
keep using small amounts but don't get careless.
i think the reason it didn't go off would be because it was damp. its still impact sensitive when damp but like anthony said it
cannot make the deflagration (burning fast like BP) to detonation very well when like this.
dry it out completely and pour some into a thick walled card tube...say 3cm long and 1cm wide. also the addition of a small
amount of black powder where the fuse meets the HMTD will aid initiation.
xoo1246 May 6th, 2002, 05:34 PM

Remove
A_W May 7th, 2002, 05:18 PM

Thanks xoo1246. I will try that, probably tomorrow when the HMTD has finished reacting. What about just putting a fuze
directly into the cracker itself, instead of heating it with blackpowder from the outside? This would be more practical if the
charge was to be placed into a hole or something.
Aluminum foil is aluminum pressed to a very thin sheet. Some of the aluminum reacts with the air, producing a thin layer of
Al2O3 coating the aluminum foil, if this is what you ment with aluminum oxide. Will this be completely safe to use with HMTD?
(metals+HMTD=bad,
metal oxides+HMTD=?)
I have thought of drilling a hole into a piece of wood (or a tree), filling it with HMTD, fuzing it, and put some duct-tape over
the opening. I think I will try this, after some experimenting with xoo1246`s crackers.
If you go to the June 2001 Archive, and look up a topic called:

"A Big charge of Ap", some guys have set of AP charges as big as a full coke can, and even as much as a pound <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> (I belive the power between AP and HMTD is pretty much the same). I don`t
plan to do this, as it is not worth the risk to me.

A_W, make sure you use the foil crackers straight away. with storage the HMTD will react with the aluminium (dispite the Al2O3
layer)....or maybe it react with the layer too...fuck knows!....but it does react. so use them within a few days!

I used to enjoy scaring the crap out of my college roommate by placing a couple of toy caps on a stovetop burner, and turning
it on low. Gives you just enough time to nonchalantly walk out the door. I placed a quarter on top of one once just for shits 'n
giggles, and it accelerated the center of the quarter so fast it deformed it into a shallow cup shape. :D
0EZ0 May 8th, 2002, 11:59 PM

Lol. Zambosan, that'd scare the shit out of me. Especially since i'de be wondering whether or not it was a stash of assorted
pyro\explosive stuff going off :D . Hehehe.
With the Al foil idea, i used to experiment with lead styphnate that way. Depending on the amount of foil you've wrapped it in,
you get quite a delay. :p
A_W May 9th, 2002, 08:47 AM

I`ve just set off a pea-sized quantity of HMTD wrapped into some duct-tape. It detonated, but not very loud or powerful. The
HMTD was completely dried this time (I flame-tested a small pile unconfined, MAN that burned fast!)
I`m pretty sure that if filled into a metal-casing, the HMTD will detonate much louder. I`m very tempted to fill some into one
of those very small cartridge casings (.22), but I don`t know how long it will take the HMTD to react with the brass. Will it, like
aluminum, react over a few days, or will it, like I`ve read on another page, react very fast? Because aluminum is much more
reactive than brass, I think it will be quite "safe", but I`d like to hear some opinions first.

Unlikely to happen. I've loaded HMTD into Al tube and 22LR casings before with no problem, but they were used immediately.
This isn't to say it's safe though, remember the story about the guying making a HMTD COB which reacted and heated up as
he was filling it.
Generally speaking though, casing doesn't make a lot of difference to HE explosions. Pea sized isn't a lot of explosive,
probably half a gram or less. You won't get a boom from this, more a sharp, high crack/bang. I'd recomend a small carboard/
plastic tube, or small plastic container (film canister, little bottle, bottle cap etc) with a few grams of HMTD in it. That should
give a more impressive effect.
A_W May 9th, 2002, 11:42 AM

Thankyou Anthony, I will try a .22 shell.
If you check out the makeshift arsenal, there is a picture of a .22 magnum shell of HMTD, detonating in a toy car. The
detonation looks pretty powerful. MAGNUM, simply means that the shell is a little longer (not much). I don`t know how much
HMTD (in grams, unpressed) will fit ino a .22 shell though.

You should be able to get 0.75-1gm in there. Be careful and try to avoid holding the brass directly, hold it still in pliers/vice etc
and carry by the fuse when complete. Might seem a bit OTT, but better safe than sorry afterall.
A_W May 9th, 2002, 05:47 PM

I`ve been thinking of making a HMTD plastique by mixing it with a small amount of mineral- or soy oil, if this is possible. This
has been discussed before (in the archives), but I still have some questions (wich may sound a bit stupid):
Will this still be a primary, and require confinement to detonate (in small amounts), or will it detonate unconfined when
initiated with a small detonator? How sensitive will this be? Will a small firecracker make a good "detonator" for this?

A_W, the mineral oil and HMTD makes a crumbly mix which makes a very hot burning incedary mix which must be lit with a
naked flame. it is no longer fuse sensitive although still a sensitive mix. therefore it must be initiated with a cap under
confinement to stop the stuff scatering although i haven't actually tested it as a secondary.

It would probably be less spark & flame sensitive, but treat it as sensitive!
A_W May 14th, 2002, 12:44 PM

I have now done some (successful) testing with HMTD. It was filled into .22LR casings.
I first filled one slightly more than 1/4 of the casing. It went off as loud as a firecracker, but it sounded different (more of a
cracking sound). The casing was ripped open.
Another was filled almost 1/2, and taped to a not so lucky plastic soldier, wich was split in half :D This was made into a shaped
charge, wich proved to be very effective.
The last test was a casing filled almost 3/4 to the top. I did this one right outside our house. The bang was very loud, and the
casing was totally deformed.
Conclusion: The tests were successful, and I will never touch blackpowder again :) In my next tests, the charge probably will
be placed inside a piece of wood.
I really have no place to set of big things, but in the summer, I will go to my grandparents. Huge, endless areas of forest :D
xoo1246 May 14th, 2002, 02:31 PM

Don't use brass, if you are unlucky you will injure yourself. Al foil is safer(but not safe at all) since it's coated with oxide or
other coating. As kingspaz said, they should be used instantly.
There is no need to use metalic shells(not even Al), the confinement from a plastic straw is often enough if sealed in the
ends.
This guy loaded HTMD into a shell containing copper. Obviously he didn't know about metal incompatibility.
Helvetica">
Well At the July of 1989 It happened, I was damping HMTD into a .22
LR copper cartridge, with a standart match, you see holding that
cartridge in my left hand ,when it suddendly detonated, A HUGE explosion,
and I found that for some reason, my hand was bleeding abt 1/2 liter
of blood per min ( 1/9 gallon per min ) , and I could see my bone
'shining' through scraped human tissue.
Epiloque. Never NEVER load B-caps in your hand, Always use special
tamping device when loading Blasting caps - any other use for HMTD is
silly - Believe me, I had hitted HMTD with a Hammer, It didn't
detonate, and now, when I try to load that stuff from same batch into
a copper container, It detonates, even I press with maybe 1/2 kg
( = 1 pound ) force it.
Maybe the batch was impure, but believe me, It really explode
without no reason. I must say that HMTD is a good explosive, but It's
truly unpredictable. I'm sure that there are many others in this
newsgroup who can tell the same thing - months of hard handling, and
then, a explosion by a minumum force.
<hr /></blockquote>
A_W May 14th, 2002, 03:29 PM

Yes, I have read that one before, and it did give me second thoughts about .22 shells (any shells).
The nice thing about high-explosives, is that the confinement isn`t really that important. If it detonates, it detonates, and you
don`t need that strong containers. LE charges seem to increese in power along with the strenght of the container. (a
cratermaker with 1 tablespoon of BP is much louder than a cardboard cracker with 3 tablespoons)
Drinking-straw you said? Good idea. No metals, no shrapnel, and easier to obtain. Will some duct tape at the ends be enough
confinement? I will test it tomorrow anyway. I just filtered out my last batch of this wonderful explosive :) .
********************************************
I`ve just returned from my "testing grounds" under our front porch. I tested the drinking-straw idea. I filled a fuzed piece of
the straw with HMTD and tapped it to make it more dense. The charge was placed under a plastic bucket. The piece of straw
was no longer than 3 cm long.
I just have to say: OH MY GOD! That shit was powerful! I was standing 2 metres from it (holding my ears of course). I could
feel the shockwave (not sure if this is possible with such a "small" charge, but it felt that way). My ears hurts like hell!
The bucket layed 1 meter from where it had been placed. I picked it up, only to discover that it was split almost in half, barley
hanging together!
This is just as good as metal-containers, and much more safe. I underestimated the power of this explosive. My next test will
be carried out in the woods.
[ May 15, 2002, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: A_W ]
andreas May 16th, 2002, 08:47 AM

A little question more on topic again.
Just to get things straight:
The reason to cool the hmtd reaction is to reduce reaction rate so you will not get a run a way reaction, am I right?
This I can imagine will not be a problem with 3% peroxide because of the cooling effect of al the water present.
a bit of feedback would be nice.
A_W May 16th, 2002, 10:53 AM

You`re probably right; low conc. of H2O2=low temperature rise. But I think that an ice-bath still is a good idea with 3%. I use
6%, and the temperature rises quite much, if I add larger amounts of the hexamine at the same time. Not using an ice-bath,
means that you`d have to add the chemicals slower, wich really is boring work.
You could try not using a cooling system, but I don`t reccomend it.
andreas May 16th, 2002, 12:02 PM

whell I have made 2 batches without cooling an as far as stability goes have found no negative effects. This would be due to
the non-existence of isomere's of hmtd(right?)
A bit off topic but when making tnp with h2so4 and nh4no3 why doesn't the tnp form ammoniumpicrate. I would expect this
due to the free ammonium-ions present.

That's a good question, andreas, I'd like to know that myself - I have no direct experience. Ammonium picrate is formed by
reaction of TNP with ammonium hydroxide, which is a base. My guess is that since the H+ and OH- ions titrate to form water,
this leaves only the ammonium and the picrate ions, so they re-associate when the liquid is evaporated. Without the OH- ion
eliminating the H+ ion, the picrate ion would be happier retaining it's H+ ion, as it has a stronger charge than the NH3+ ion.
Feel free to critique and flame, this is just conjecture. :D
andreas May 17th, 2002, 05:26 PM

Whell I think I can live with that you made one fault by including a NH3+ ion. But the rest must be okee another suggestion
might be some sort of reaction that tnp just is a little less soluble than dunnite and precipitates easier. Like what we call a
neerslag(downfall) reaction. Just like adding sodiumsulphate and and calciumchloride.
Come to think off it this must be crap since then there would be no chance dunnite could be made with ammonium a whell I
had a couple of beers so don't flame me for such a stupid suggestion
Whell today I thought about it and I think I found the solution. To free the nitrate from the ammonium ion it reacts with with
the sulphuric acid to form sa sulphate witch isn't a strong enough base to react with the tnp.
same thing with potassiumnitrate why shouldn't it for potassiumpicrate because it forms potassiumsulphate first and this
dissolves in water but doesn't react further.
[ May 18, 2002, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: andreas ]

DOH! NH4+, sorry. I seem to always be mixing my ammonia and ammonium... :p
Anyways, sulphates must be much more water-soluble than the TNP, no? Or wouldn't a substantial amount precipitate out with
the TNP upon crash-cooling in an ice bath?
nitriees June 13th, 2002, 10:06 AM

I experience the "overhit" problem 3 times out of 5 times I try to
make HMTD.
I use 200ml H2O2 ( 38%), 4 tea spoon Hexamine and 5 tea spoon
citric acid as experiment try.
I mix this stuffs under ice bath and seems no reaction happen and
the solution is below 5 degree celcius, I left it in ice bath for
5 hours and taken out to room temperature after that. No reaction
within 30 minutes. I go out to work.
When came back after 8 hours, the solution already boiled to half
of original volume, found some HMTD still sticked on outside the
biker.
Anybody know what is the cause of it, is it more Hexamine put in
caused the overhit or not long enough keep in ice bath?
A_W June 13th, 2002, 12:09 PM

I think that your ratios are wrong. I use 45-50 ml H2O2, 2 1/2 ts hexamine, and 4 1/2 ts citric acid. And my H2O2 is 6%. I
belive that your amount of H2O2 is way too much.
I'm not sure if this is the source of your problems, but that's one of the mistakes I see. Try my ratios, and see what happens.
If you mean "overheat", the reason is simply that you remove it from the ice-bath. Keep it in there at all times! Especially with
your high conc. H2O2. Try adding the hexamine slowly, as that is the chemical that reacts forming heat. Not the acid. (At least
not when I make it. I can add all of the acid at once without any rise of temp.)

I think if the reaction vessel is kept too cold, the reaction will not start.
S. Toppholzer June 13th, 2002, 05:00 PM

I think the type of reaction vessel is crucial in order to prevent a runaway reaction. I made many batches of HMTD and haven't
had any such reaction yet - even though I use 35% H2O2 and mix the ingredients at room temperature. Sometimes the stuff
got somewhat warm and placig it into a salted ice bath immediately put it back to normal temperatures. A good thing is that
the forming of HMTD takes usually not more than one hour.
My reaction vessel: A clear, empty light bulb with tne metallic threads around its neck removed.
00Buckshot June 13th, 2002, 09:49 PM

I find the freezer to cold, and room temp is to hot.
I used to get over heated reactions often, and it destroys the yeild.
But I have a system down that works well for me, and I use 35% H202. I think the 35% H2O2 is much more prone to over
heating.
I pre-chill each chem in the freezer, then mix them and keep it in the freezer for a half hour or so, to keep that initial warming
down. Then I put it in the fridge. Why use the ice bath, if you have a fridge? Its not like its gonna blow your fridge
apart....hehe. The reaction starts within a few hours and works great.
And I found a great hexamine fuel tablet. For all you Esbit users out there try other brands. This box is black and has
absolutely nothing on it but the words fuel tablets and made in China. No wax at all. If your not sure just smell it.
[ June 13, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: 00Buckshot ]

Thank you for all of yours suggestion and information. Now l have better understanding.
Last night, I try again to make HMTD with dilute 5 tea spoon Hexamine
into 150 ml H2O2 (38%) by using a glass bottol with plastic cap.
Taken in and out from ice water to maintain the temperature below 25
degree celcius.
Add citric acid by everytime one tea spoon and shake the solution
vigorously. Until the reaction start, put into ice water once I saw the HMTD crystal start to form.
Left this for 5 hours, the yield is the most l ever get before but seems like more acid need to used.
Most of the HMTD is float on above,arround 80%. Is it any different
between this 2 stuffs in term of characteristic?
Arkangel June 14th, 2002, 10:04 AM

Mega's lab says you should stir for 3 hours or so, while keeping it cool, but a lot of folks seem to just leave it. How important
is the stirring?
I was thinking about using one of those little battery operated drinks mixers mounted on a frame, with some kind of plastic or
glass stirrer. Those of you without magnetic stirrers, how do you manage it?

The dimensions of the container will have quite an impact on the thermal transfer characteristics and thereby the conditions
under which thermal runaway will occur.
A_W June 14th, 2002, 04:01 PM

I agree with you Zambosan; an ice-bath is the best thing. A fridge sounds fine, but the problem there is that you'd have to
mix the chems. at room-temp. When adding the hexamine is (in my experience) the step that emits most heat. Therefore,
the chems. should be chilled when mixing, not after. This is just what I prefer.
If kept in an ice-bath, I don't find stirring very important. I just stir until all of the chems. are dissolved, and leave it in the
ice-bath until the reaction is complete, occasionally checking the temp. the first hours.
Celtick July 15th, 2002, 02:37 PM

I know that the synthesis procedure for HMTD has been discussed many times, but here is a personal problem. I tried to
make HMTD yesterday, but after more than 24 hours there are still no crystals formed in the reaction vessel. Here is my
procedure;
I dissolved my Esbit tablets in distilled water and filtered off the wax binder, I boiled off the excess water and dried the white
crystals.
I mixed 100ml of 10%H2O2 with approx. 10gr of Hexamine. And added 50ml of 32%HCL, the temperature raised to about 30
degrees Celsius (I mixed all the chems in a ice-bad). I left the solution in the fridge and stirred occasionally. Now after more
than 24 hours no crystals have formed, what is the problem: did I use too little quantities or is the temperature too low?
(There are also many little bubbles on the inside of my plastic reaction vessel)

i don't knowthe correct ratios but to me that looks like too much acid as i'd say you only need around 25ml.

Within the next day or two, I'll be posting a synthesis of HMTD with pictures of each step. It might be of some help to you.

I usually make my HMTD with 6% H202, but a while ago I obtained some 30% H202, and tried that.
My problem? Even after 2 days I got a crappy yield (pretty much the same yield as the 6%)
(I used mega's recipie)
Anthony, what % of H202 are you using in your detailed pic synthesis?
[ July 15, 2002, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]
KinePak July 16th, 2002, 09:09 AM

DO any of yall know if you can use that Trioxane shit, casue thats the only thing i can find around here, i mean i can order the
hexamine, but if the trioxane is the same, can someone let me know thanks alot
A_W July 16th, 2002, 12:34 PM

Trioxane (or metaformaldehyde) is not the same as hexamine (or hexamethylenetetramine), and I therefore assume that it
cannot be used for HMTD.
Celtick July 16th, 2002, 02:29 PM

There still are nt any crys tals formed, I left it out off the frid ge now for appro x 20 hours. I fin ally got a supplier that sells me
30%H2O2 and I placed an order last week so that should be delivered next week, but since I m g o ing to Spain Mon day,
there will be no experimenting for about three weeks.
[ July 16, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Celtick ]
S. Toppholzer July 16th, 2002, 04:28 PM

yesterday I wanted to make some more HMTD. This time I didn't have any scale at hand and I thought I'd give it a try
anyways. So I took some H2O2, added quite some citric acid and a good helping of Hexamine and mixed it at room
temperature - close to an ice bath in case it should get more than lukewarm. It didn't.
At first everything seemed fine and some HMTD fell out. Since the amount was pretty shitty I thought I'd give it more time and
let it sit overnight. This morning though even the HMTD already formed was gone again! Too much H2O2?
Flake2m July 17th, 2002, 09:34 AM

I am making some HMTD, I have just mixed Hexamine, citric acid and 6% H2O2 togther in a glass jar. I am waiting for it to
precipate.
I am not sure of the exact masses of the chemicals mixed, as i dont have access to a scale :( . I believe it was something
like; 100ml of 6% hydrogen peroxide, about 5g of hexamine and roughly 25g of citric acid. I put a few ice blocks in the jar to
keep it cool. My method descibed is kewlish, but this is my first batch of hmtd so I have much to learn about its synthesis.
I have a few questions on the synthesis :confused: ;

1. Currently my experiment is a colourless and odourless liquid with a few white specks, and has been for the past 3 hours. Is
this unusall?
2. Is it nessacary to keep the temperature at 0C to get the greatest yeild? My mixture is quite cold but not at 0C.
3. Does the amount of citric acid added in affect the yeild, I have added too much citric acid so will this affect the experiment?

I used 6% H2O2.
The thread is here:
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000441" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/

ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000441</a>
lucifer July 28th, 2002, 07:50 PM

I tried to detonate some ANNM in a bottle under water, but the detonation failed.
The detonator was made out of 3 gram HMTD and 4 gram PETN, a 1N4148 and some perchlorate / sugar and sulfur mix to get
the detonator ignited electrically from the 1N4148.
I did tried to detonate the bottle twice.

The first time i heard a small explosion and after the recovery of the detonator i saw that the HMTD was only partial gone .
And the PETN was still there.
On the second attempt again a small explosion and now all the HMTD was gone but the PETN was still there.
After this I tested both the HMTD and PETN from the same batch and there was nothing wrong with it.
So why didnt it work with the perchlorate / sugar and sulfur mix ?
Im quite sure that the HMTD didnt got wet.
Is it possible that the HMTD didnt detonated but only burned very fast, because it was ignited from a very low
temperature? (the perchlorate sugar mix)

Today I dreamt my new HMTD experiment. I dissolved 7 Esbit tablets into boiling distilled water; I filtered the wax binder off
and boiled the excess water off. I dried the Hexamine crystals for more than 24 hours.
I cooled 40ml of 30%H2O2 and mixed it with the hexamine (the reaction vessel already placed into an ice-bad). I measured
out 70ml of 32%HCl and poured in 5ml at a time.
First the solution was slightly salmon coloured, after approx. 10ml of HCl the solution turned plain again and after 35ml it
turned salmon again. After another 5ml, crystals started to form rapidly and I stopped HCl addition.
Since all my ice was melted at this time, I put the reaction vessel plus ice-bad into the refrigerator (after each addition the
temp raised rapidly).
After my solution has cooled a bit I will add the other 30ml of HCl and let it stand for a while.

After an hour a thick layer of HMTD crystals was floating on top of the solution, there were also crystals floating around at the
bottom. I dried some crystals that stuck on my thermometer; they ignited with a very rapid and impressive flame. I poured
the other 30ml of HCl into the solution (in portions of 5ml at a time). But after another hour al my crystals disappeared! <img
border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Now, two hours later, I only have a clear solution left :( . I shall wait another
12-24 hours before my final conclusion, but it seems to me that there was too much acid, it seems that 40ml should have
been enough.
drshneb June 11th, 2003, 10:17 PM

I've been looking at alot of different methods for hmtd and decided to go by heart,
I used 400ml 6% H2O2, 24g hexamine and 37.5g of citric acid. 16 hours has gone by with minimal amount forming. I have
kept the solution fairly cold untill this morning where i put it at room temp which is when the hmtd started forming. Last time i
synthesised it i left it at room temp constantly and precipitation started much earlier than this batch, the only difference was i
scaled this new batch up. Can anyone explain how by going against the advice to keep it in the fridge could actually help the
reaction? maybe it has something to do with the citric acid reacting endothermically?
and if you can see something wrong with this mixture is there anything i can do to save it or increase the yield?

the idea is this:
mix the reactants and leave them for 30 mins or so to REACT. then put it in the fridge to cool the solution. this will result in a
decrease in solubility of the HMTD so the maximum amount will precipitate out from the solution.
try leaving the mixture at room temp for 5 hours then cooling overnight in the fridge.
Macgyver June 13th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by kingspaz
the idea is this:
mix the reactants and leave them for 30 mins or so to REACT. then put it in the fridge to cool the solution. this will result in a
decrease in solubility of the HMTD so the maximum amount will precipitate out from the solution.
try leaving the mixture at room temp for 5 hours then cooling overnight in the fridge.
HMTD is pretty insoluable in *anything*....
Soluability for HMTD in 100g of solvent at 20 degree celsius.
Water - 0.1g
Ethanol - 0.01g
Diethylether - 0.017g
Carbondisulphide - 0.01g
Carbontetrachloride - 0.013g
Acetic acid, 100% - 0.14g
Chloroform - 0.64g
Acetone - 0.33g
Ethyleneglycoldiacetate - 0.9g
(Soluability data taken from Swedish Infomania "PYROKEMI 2000", and since I know the guy who did this research I also know
the results are from a reliable source....).
The point is that you do not need to put it in the fridge unless you care about loosing a fraction of a gram or are using vast
amounts of solvents to clean your HMTD.
I'd say just leave the rection mix overnight and then filter off and clean your HMTD.......
Sparky June 22nd, 2003, 02:35 PM

A few days ago I had an amazingly realistic dream about making HMTD. I followed Megalomania's synthesis quite closely (but
not exactly). I have read about people making HMTD and got the idea that getting about half as much HMTD as hexamine
used is normal. I used 14 grams (as per synthesis) hexamine and got 15 (+- 1g) grams HMTD! Does anybody know what the
theoretical yield is? I recorded my dream (with pictures) at this page:
http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/HMTDsynth/HMTDSynthDream.htm
I have two/three questions:

1. I stored it under acetone. In real life, would this be at all dangerous - any incomptibilities?
2. It seems to be much more sensitive and powerful than last time I made HMTD in my sleep. Judging from the test results
on the page can anybody say whether my dream HMTD was of expected sensitivity/power? Mostly I would like to know about
sensitivity. Is washing it once with distilled water and twice with sodium bicarbonate good enough?
kingspaz June 22nd, 2003, 03:46 PM

your purification should do the job ok. it may be an idea to wash with alternate bicarb and water. like, wash with water, then
bicarb, then water, then bicarb then finally with water again. that should neutralise it well enough. 32*C is very hot room
temperature! at that slightly elevated temperature your HMTD will likely decompose at an accelerated rate.
from COPAE:
% mass lost at over 24hrs -> 60*C 75*C 100*C
0.50 1.30 67.98
it is likely then that long term storage of HMTD in your climate is not the best thing to do. it may not lose much mass but over
say 3 months and you lose 0.5% of mass you will have contaminents in there as a result.
it is a good page you have written though. now somebody was asking about what gets respect. IMO this gets respect :)
as for the acetone storage being safe...i'm not sure at all. it depends if HMTD is soluble in acetone. at 32*C though you might
aswell just store under water...
Sparky June 23rd, 2003, 03:00 AM

Thanks kingspaz, I chose acetone because even though it is very hot this time of year it is also humid.
I plan to continue my dream and use it up within two weeks so no problems there.
From Mcgyvers table it seems HMTD is not very soluble in acetone, so hopefully it will be ok.
Sparky June 27th, 2003, 01:12 AM

Hello all. I have had yet another dream about HMTD. I made another web page about my experience.
http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/HMTDSynth2/HMTDDream2.htm
This synthesis did not go as smoothly as the first one. It was a little rushed and not as well controlled. But mostly I just made
a stupid mistake. I experienced some sort of runaway reaction when the beaker was accidentally heated to 48 C during the 2
hour room temperature period. So, the reason I am posting is to ask about what exactly happened. The thing I find strange
about this occurance is that the reaction did not occur when the solution was heated but rather when I tried to cool it down.
To me, more important than what happened is what will the finished product be like? I am worried about extra sensitivity (I'm
paranoid).
Edit: I guess I should have read McGyvers post more carefully!

"But then again, for HMTD I really prefer 60-99% acetic acid, for HMTD production. I find it has much less potential for runaway
reactions a few hours into the synthesis.
But beware of citric acid, using citric for HMTD *will* cause a runaway reaction unless proper temperature control is used
throught the whole process. It's not a question about if, rather about when it's about to happen.
Also try to make HMTD in batches using around 10g of hexamine (HMTA), making bigger batches also increases the risk of
runaway reactions."

I had to dream of puriflying the hexamine for HMTD. I added a 12 gram crushed esbit fuel tablet into 20ml of water, brought
it to a boil the hexamine dissolved into soloution the wax remained it was filitered. The soloution was left outside in the sun to
evaporate the water, after leaveing it there for 4 days all water evaporate. There was dirt contamination in the material, and
30ml of 30% H2O2 was added. Before I add the HCl I wanted to know would any of the dirt contamination affect the stability
of the HMTD?
If it does I'll dream of dumping out the soloution.
IPN June 30th, 2003, 03:49 PM

I have had batches gone wrong because impurities (I'm using 35% H2O2) so I would recommend that you try it again, this
time making sure no impurities are present.
A good way of getting the water off the HMTA is to place it in a wide dish and in to a warm place (not outside of course, we
d o n t wan t the impurities a gain) to ensure good e vaporation o f water.
nitriees July 11th, 2003, 05:51 AM

I try to make HMTD last night with divide it two step,
1) Add hexamine to 50% H2O2
2) Add citric acid to the above mixture with ice bath
But i don't have enough time to complete the synthesis within that night, i decide to make first
step, let it sit and will carry out next step the next day.
After all the hexamine diluted, the solution is very warm and i put this into water bath to cool it down. The water bath is
arround 24 degree celcius, after the solution temperature drop to same as water bath i leave it sit there.
15 minutes later, i heard a " Hizzzzzzz..... " sound and the whole solution is boiling, unfortunately the glass bottle used for
this solution is half fasterned with plastic lid, the pressure build up unable to escape, the glass bottle shatter and a nasty gas
filled the whole kitchen.
Without citric acid added, what is happening???.......
The exothermic reaction happen because of HMTD forming even without citric acid or hexamine
oxidation will caused.
Sonny Jim July 13th, 2003, 09:40 AM

50% H2O2 is too concentrated to make HMTD without risk of what happened to you. I recommend you dilute it down to at
least 30%. You did not keep the solution anywhere near cool enough either.
This may help you:
http://angry_jack.tripod.com/hmtd.html
nitriees July 13th, 2003, 11:51 PM

By control the temperature below 5 degree celcius during whole process start from addition of hexamine to 50% H2O2 until
HMTD finish formed, take me 3.5 hours to get satisfied yield.
By volume 1:1 ratio of hexamine and H2O2 (50% concentration), i obtained almost 60% by volume from the solution is
HMTD.
Use higher concentration of H2O2 have higher risk of run-away reaction but with careful temperature control, the reaction time
is shorter with higher yield.
Still not sure what reaction actually happen for previous boiling hexamine and H2O2 solution
without catalyst present and already cool to room temperature?
Sonny Jim July 14th, 2003, 07:11 AM

Impurities in the hexamine? Contact with metal? At that concentration H2O2, it would not surprise me if the hexamine and
H2O2 reacted without a catalyst by themselves. The reaction is exothermic, and therefore self sustaining, leading to
spontaneous temperature increase.
Trinitrotoluene November 10th, 2003, 11:05 PM

I am wondering if you can use Boric Acid as a catalyst in the manufacture of HMTD? It seems to be more commonly found in
the pharmacy, and sometimes it's almost impossable to obtain citric acid. It is said that most weak mineral acids will work, so
is it possable?
blindreeper November 11th, 2003, 02:30 AM

I don't know about boric acid but this text book I have here has a table of some common carbonic acids:
Formic acid
Acetic acid
Butyric acid
Benzoic acid
Glycine
Oxalic acid
Citric acid
Citric having the biggest molecule and formic the smallest. This makes me think shouldn't all of these be able to be used in
the production of HMTD? Acetic, benzoic, oxalic and citric are very common so I think any of them could be used. I also have
heard of reports where glacial acetic acid was used and received yeilds of up to 80% theoretical!
I would try boric acid because that jsut adds another to the list of potential catalysts :)
Boomer November 11th, 2003, 05:45 AM

I tried both Mega s a nd Mr. Cools s method, adjusting the amou nts according to my pre cu rsor concentrations. With 30% H2O2
and 33% HCl I had yields varying randomly between zero and 7g from 14g Hexamin, with the same chemicals from the same
bottles. No idea why I sometimes got no product with exactly the same process!
With 21g citric I got no product even after 4 days in the fridge. But when I added 5ml of 60% acetic to the beaker within one
hour I got 17.5g of product from 14g Hexamin. Assuming the figures on Mr. Cool's site are correct (29.7g from 20g = 100%),
this equals 84% yield!
Could it be that the mix of citric + acetic acid makes a better catalyst, or was this super yield coincidence? I will repeat the
synth and let you know.
P.S. Funny to be a newbie again after 20 ye ars of bla sting around .
Wild Catmage November 11th, 2003, 06:04 AM

I use the same ratio and materials as A_W. I usually leave my mix to precipitate over a period of about 24 hours at room
temperature. I find that my yield is more than enough to fill two empty 5.56mm cartridge cases.
I also wash my HMTD with sodium bicarbonate/sodium hydrogen carbonate solution. I find that if I don't, it ends up with a
"sticky" feel to it.
i also tried improvising a mini-more out of a soap dish, although with little success. I guess that this is because the detonation
velocity/rate of expansion of the explosive is too low.
10:05 11/11/03 - ...to be edited later
invcdr November 17th, 2003, 02:20 PM

Today I attempted to make HMTD for the first time.
I used 55ml of 28% H2O2, 14g of hexamin and 21g of citric acid.
1. I prepared pre-chilled H2O2 and poured into glass bottle in the ice bath.
2. I added hexamin at once and stirred until it dissolved properly.
3. Then I added citric acid slowly while stirring the solution continuously.
4. After dissolving all the ingredients, I put the solution in the fridge for 3 hours, strring for 3 minutes at each 15 minutes.
5. I put the solution in room temperature after 3 hours.
Soon the solution became 'milky', and white foamy material was generated in reaction vessel.
The temperature increased continuously.
Finally the solution boiled and this experiment went failure.
I wonder why this over-heating happened...
Thank you.
xyz November 17th, 2003, 08:03 PM

The overheating happened because you had fairly strong H2O2 and poor cooling.
It would be a good idea to use a salt ice bath instead of putting it in the fridge. If you don't want to do this, it would be a good
idea to use less citric acid so that the reaction doesn't go so quickly (the citric acid is just a catalyst so the amount that you
use won't affect the HMTD, just the speed at which it is produced).
If you use a salt ice bath then you should be fine, I use 50% H2O2 and conc. HCl in my AP synths and a salt ice bath is fine
to stop it from overheating.
Boomer November 18th, 2003, 04:20 AM

He said he had it out of the fridge by then, at room temp. The same happened to me, when taking it out after 4 days
without any yield, it cooked away in the sink two hours later. It seems to react only above 0 deg. C, so now I take it out, but
lea ve it in a b ig water bath a t 20 deg. C . This works and prevents overheating. It is also a goo d idea to use much too big
reaction vessels, they have more surface for cooling (ditto for NG etc).
What yields do you normally get? Was the 84% yield I once got with acetic (see 4 posts above) pure luck? It is much better
then what Mr. Cool mentions, and he should know how to do it!
P.S. Funny to be a newbie again after 20 ye ars of bla sting around .

simply RED November 20th, 2003, 05:03 AM

Now HMTD is the primary i use!
The synthesys in my experience never works with so low temperatures.
I add the hexamine to 30% peroxide then add the citric acid.
Then heat to 50-60 degrees. No reaction untill all the solution becomes white and cloudy.
Then left at 30 degrees for 20 minutes until the reaction is over.
Maybe my peroxide is 10-20 not 30 as it is written.
The yield is high.
The acid is not a catalysator of the process.

It takes part in the process and changes after all.
(CH2)6N4 + 3H2O2 + 2HCl = N2(CH2)6(OO)6 + 2NH4Cl
Desmikes November 20th, 2003, 06:47 PM

If the acid is indeed part of the synthesis, then why is it that other acids work just as well (gl-l acetic for example?)
xyz November 20th, 2003, 08:17 PM

@Simply RED, Anthony managed to do an HMTD synth using HCl (search and you should find it, it is called "HMTD synth with
pics" or something like that), and that worked fine.
There are many members that use HCl for HMTD synths.
simply RED November 21st, 2003, 06:15 AM

Any acid will work for the process. Only oxidizer- acids will not work.
The process is:
Hexamin + H2O2 <=> HMTD + NH3
Adding acid you connect the NH3 to form NH4+

NH3 + H+ = NH4+
The concentration of NH3 becomes lower and the equation goes to the right. Anyway the acid becomes chemically changed,
thats why it is not catalysator.
Also a catalysator affects both reactions in the chemical balance, which is not seen here.
scarletmanuka November 26th, 2003, 05:07 AM

I first tried HMTD synthesis not long ago.
The first attempt was with 50% H2O2 and 30%HCl using Mr Cool's method. Instead of the recommennded 30mL acid for my
ingredients, I added 6mL. The temperature was at a stable 10C for several minutes and then spiked rapidly upwards with the
solution boiling over and reeking of formaldehyde.
The second attempt was with citric acid using Mega's synthesis. However, I had 50% peroxide and added the acid all at once.
It was stable for a little while, but then this time, the runaway happened again leaving lots of smoke and semi-carbonised
resin in the beaker.
My final attempt I used Mega's synthesis again, but this time diluting my peroxide to 30%. The temp of the solution did not
rise for several hours ie. stayed at 10C, and the solution stayed clear. I took it out of the ice bath and left it to stand for
another hour wherethe HMTD precipitated to the point of creating a thick glue like deposit. It is yet to have fully dried, but I
have taken small amounts and dried to prove it is indeed HMTD.
As far as I can see, the moral is to lower the concentration of HMTD. BTW the initial precipitation collected at the top of the
solution.

You mean lower the conc H2O2 right? There shouldn't be a problem with runaways if you go slow, you said you added your acid
all at once? I haven't tried HMTD but I think it would be advantageous to add drop by drop and stir to avoid hotspots. Also are
you cooling all your chems before starting the reaction? because that may help as well.
When I try AP I will probably be bringing 6% H2O2 up to 30% so I shouldn't have a problem with too strong a soloution ;)
scarletmanuka November 26th, 2003, 09:52 PM

Blackhawk- I only added the citric acid all at once, the HCl I did drop wise. I figured that the citric being a weak acid would not
create hot spots. I am stirring the solution with electronic stirrer, but it is just as easy for me to dilute the peroxide and not
have to worry about slowly and laboriously adding the acid to prebent runaways. Probably stick to AP though, it is a lot cheaper
and less labour intensive.
lucas November 27th, 2003, 03:02 PM

I dreamed of HMTD synth last night, based on Mega's lab. I used 50% H2O2. Since the amount of liquid involved and
particulary water, is so much lower, (less than half the water as compared to using 30% H2O2), I decided to use 1/3 the citric
acid. This proved to be a quite sufficient amount of acid. Cloudy precipitation was observed 1:45 into synth. I was making a
scaled down batch, and the ice bath was kept in the freezer between regular agitation. After filtering the first precipitation, the
remaining liquid however was still reacting and became hot. Addition of Ice to the vessel halted the reaction. The filtration
happened at 4 hours. This is a good lesson that the reaction should be allowed to complete fully before recovering the
product.
chemistr1 November 28th, 2003, 07:06 PM

Pure HMTD production is relatively easy but has anyone actually managed to succesfully plasticise HMTD into a useable
secondary type explosive?
Rosco Bodine November 28th, 2003, 10:25 PM

There is one patented composition which consists primarily of
HMTD / AN claimed to have practical usefulness , however it
would seem to me that it would be vulnerable to storage issues
and there are simpler ways of manufacture using milder conditions
than those described by the particular inventor . See GB415900
and GB397600 , GB339024 . Also a related hexamine dinitrate patent
by the same inventor GB421138 . At one time HMTD was contemplated
as a practical material for priming mixtures. See US2341263 .
Original German patents also supposed practical value for HMTD ,
see DRP563459 and DRP274522 . But the truth is that HMTD
is inherently unstable in storage except in the cold , and does
gradually deteriorate even at ordinary temperatures , so its
usefulness is limited to near term use and it must be kept
cold and dry in storage . One possible exception suggested
by the Callery patents is the formation of a possible double salt
of HMTD and ammonium nitrate . If such a double salt does
exist , it could have better stability than HMTD alone , or HMTD
in simple mixtures . An unusual route of synthesis for HMTD is
suggested by the Callery patents . Direct formation of HMTD should
occur from dissolving hexamine dinitrate in 27 per cent peroxide
( in slight excess of theretical requirement ) . HMTD should
result from a self-neutralizing reaction which proceeds at
low temperature if the mixture is kept in the cold ( very cold )
for two or three days . Cold and low acidity favor the hexamine peroxide
formation , while higher temperatures and acidity favor the hydrolysis
of the hexamine which decomposes the hexamine before the peroxide
can form . Kept in the freezer for three days , even HCl as the neutralizer
results in a nearly quantitative yield of HMTD , if only the theoretical
amount of HCl is used , or a slightly lesser amount of HCl than theory ,
however even a slight excess of HCl increases the hydrolysis of hexamine .
I have verified this to be true by experiments . The "ammonia neutralizer"
in an HMTD synthesis is a real reagent , not the same as an acid catalyst
as is the acid in ketone peroxidations . So the quantity of whatever
acid used should be only that amount just barely sufficient to neutralize
the two ammonias which are byproduct for each mole of HMTD .
The same hydrolysis avoidance applies in the formation of hexamine dinitrate
by neutralization of hexamine with nitric acid , warm temperatures
or any excess acidification will be detrimental to the yield due to
hydolysis of the hexamine directly , or the hexamine compounds
already formed . So careful neutralization of HMTD is entirely valid
for chemical reasons . However , if the Callery patents are correct ,
the inherent acidity of ammonium nitrate is not sufficient to be a serious
decomposition influence upon HMTD made by the cumbersome
Callery patent process . HMTD made by more refined syntheses
may fare as well in reaction mixtures or dry or plastic compositions
which are mixtures with ammonium nitrate . HMTD mixtures with AN
have been reported in this forum and also addition of AN to the solution
from which HMTD is precipitated has been reported here to improve
crystalline form and yield of HMTD . That report could possibly be
Callery's "double salt" if indeed an HMTD / AN double salt exists .
And this possibility is very interesting . Philou Zrealone has mentioned the
possibility that HMTD may also form a nitrate . So there is reason for
interest in further work along these lines of experimentation with HMTD .
xyz November 29th, 2003, 03:39 AM

chemistr1, someone has been able to plasticize HMTD by adding a few % heavy mineral oil.
Search and you should find it.
Trinitrotoluene November 29th, 2003, 05:02 PM

SWIM did atempt to synthesize HMTD using boric acid as a catalyst, but the results was a failure, the boric acid woulden't
dissolve into the H2O2/hexamine mixture.
The mega's procedure was used, citric acid was substuted with boric. The ration of 14 grams hexamine 50ml 30% H2O2, and
21 grams of boric, when the PH was checked it was PH 6.
Aftter 6 hours, the boric acid was filtered away, and whatever was left, HCl was added to it and HMTD is now forming.
The simple answer boric dosen't work.
Zeitgeist December 18th, 2003, 08:40 AM

I had a runaway reaction making HTMD recently - the solution boiled, and became a thick orange substance like honey. Does
this sound like normal runaway HTMD - What could the decomposition products be?
lucas January 12th, 2004, 11:11 AM

I have seen the same result from a runaway. The smell of the smoke prduced was similar to that of the haxamine used. Cant
help regarding te actual products formed in the situation.
markgollum January 13th, 2004, 12:26 AM

I also have attempted synthesizing HMTD with citric acid, and 35%H2O2.
Which always lead to the solution boiling over, no matter how slowly I added the acid (over about an hour and a half).
Then, I went to the university library, and read about Citric acid in the CRC Encyclopaedia of Chemistry and Physics (I think
that was the book, perhaps not).
The book explained that citric acid is oxidized quite easily to acetonediecarboxylic acid,
oxalic acid, carbon dioxide, and water, depending on the conditions.
Quote
"Citric acid is easily oxidized by a variety of oxidizing agents such as peroxides, hypochlorite, persulfate, permanganate,
periodate, hypobromite, chromate, manganese dioxide, and nitric acid. The products of oxidation are usually
acetonediecarboxylic acid,
oxalic acid, carbon dioxide, and water, depending on the conditions used"
CH2-COOH (O) CH2-COOH COOH

HO-C-COOH ------ > C=O + COOH+CO2+H2O
CH2-COOH CH2-COOH
So, when I read that, I thought, the peroxide is oxidizing the acid, and oxidations are exothermic, so, to try to keep the
solution from boiling, I wont use an oxidizable acid.
When I tried the synth again, using HCl instead of citric acid, I found it quite easy to keep the temperature under control.
Since then, I have used HCl for making HMTD
(EDIT tried to fix the reaction equation).
metafractal January 13th, 2004, 01:39 AM

I am astonished to hear stories about all these runaway reactions with citric acid! I use a salt ice bath with 50% H2O2 and my
reaction is always stable. I dont pre-chill reagents, dont monitor the temperature, and add my citric acid in about five
proportions with five second intervals and stirring. It is quite difficult to achieve a runaway with citric acid as it initially reacts
endothermically with the solution. Only if you manage to protonate the solution so rapidly that it becomes self sustaining can
it become exothermic (i.e. runaway).
So, I thought I might just post some pictures and an explanation of my cooling apparatus to help all these people getting
runaways. It's nothing special, but I've never actually seen any post spell out exactly how a salt-ice bath is constructed. I know
some of the senior members might laugh at this, but I think it will be very helpfull to the newbies.
The vessel used for a 100ml beaker is a plastic container that was originally a chinese takeaway container. The has a diameter
of 13cm compared to 5cm of the flask (1) (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/
pad19de11ba173af9ae73faa0c7e927db/f9f6e20d.jpg).
Ice cubes are added to the vessel (2) (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pe06f6feb7941451497bd9ecc2279a130/

f9f6e205.jpg) . A generous amount of table salt, sodium cloride (about 30g) is sprinkled on top of the ice (3) (http://
www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p64581e0d6cd40be9bcaf85bba194dc6c/f9f6e1fc.jpg) . Then water is poured evenly over
the salt and ice in order to rise to approximately 1/4 - 1/3 of the height of the vessel.
Finally, the beaker which the hexamine reaction shall take place in is submerged 3/4 of the way as close to the center as you
can get it (4) (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p9d8d8936cf7358eedb68641575d8b882/f9f6e1f2.jpg).
This provides sufficient cooling for an organic peroxide reaction. For reactions which require stricter cooling, I will crush the ice
and salt together in a blender. I dont know why I havn't seen people do this more often, as it provides excellent cooling.
On another note, I've always found the purification process of hexamine from camping stove fuel tablets tedious and highly
lossy. When using high concentration peroxide it is acceptable to just mix a chilled saturated hexamine solution with the
peroxide before the addition of the acid.
EDIT(s): Finally, all the pics are up and working.
xyz January 13th, 2004, 10:25 PM

If you construct your salt ice bath like that, what is the point of the salt?
I have always thought that the reason that salt is added is because it lowers the freezing point of water, (i.e. a frozen salt
solution will be colder than frozen water) but if you add the salt after the freezing then what is the point of adding it?
Blackhawk January 13th, 2004, 11:16 PM

I think the idea with adding the walt is that it makes the ice melt at a faster rate so the salt ice bath will be colder for a shorter
period of time.
chemoleo January 14th, 2004, 12:11 AM

hmmm.... salt lowers the freezing poing because it lessens the ability of H2O to form a crystal lattice. Hence, NaCl/water is
*liquid* below 0 deg C (as crystal formation is impeded). It is therefore a desired cooling mixture because it enables the
experimenter to achieve reaction vessel temperatures below or equal zero deg C. Conversely, a normal water/ice mixture will
never get below 0 deg C, thus the temperature in your reaction vessel is above it, normally around 2-4 deg C. For your HMTD
preps, add NaCl to the water/ice so as to have a greater temperature gradient, and so as to achieve temperatures close to 0
deg C, or preferably below it.
Mumble January 14th, 2004, 01:23 AM

Adding the salt makes the ice melt at a lower temperature, and therefore makes the solution even colder. Ice water can only
be close 0. The salt lets it get down to lets say -4. Its true that it does melt faster though. Adding Ice to salt water would allow
a cooler bath temperature, because of the ions dissolved. I forgot the formula, but it's so many degrees for every mol of ions
dissolved.
Bert January 14th, 2004, 12:11 PM

It also takes energy to dissolve the salt. The energy comes from the salt/ice mix's heat. Net result, dissolving the salt cools
the mix further- Didn't any of you ever make ice cream the old fashioned way?

I thought that they used to make ice cream in a water/KNO3 bath, at least thats what they did on that reality TV show that was
set last century :P

Hmm. Australians do things differently? Rock salt is what we used.

I'm not sure, I think this was a British series. But then again you live in the USA/Canada area don't you? so things are likely
different there. Not sure what was used in AUS, would be nice to buy some KNO3 for 'Ice Cream' making though :P
kingspaz January 15th, 2004, 09:01 PM

enough of the icecream guys - we're making HMTD :)
Wild Catmage January 17th, 2004, 06:45 PM

Speaking of which, my current batch has turned a faint pinkish-orange colour :eek:
I was using citric acid as the catalyst and 9% OTC hydrogen peroxide, but accidentally left a stainless steel spatula in the
flask, after stirring the mixture. The spatula was in the flask for about 30 minutes, and the liquid is now tinted pink. As the
crystals have not yet formed (although lots of tiny bubbles have), I don't know how this will affect the end product. I guess I'll
just have to wait and find out.
NB - There's no visible sign of rust or any other deposits on my spatula, and I cleaned all my glassware and equipment before
using them. My guess is that this is either rust, or some iron compound formed by the steel reacting with the citric acid.
On runaways, I haven't experienced any yet. When I add the acid, I cannot feel any change in temperature, at least, not any
increase in temperature. This is probably due to me using a solution of only 9% hydrogen peroxide. I'll try using a
thermometer next time.
EDIT - It's about 2 hours into the reaction now, and small white crystals are forming. Some are rising outwards to the surface
of the liquid, clinging to the outsides of tiny bubbles. Others are falling slowly towards the bottom of the reaction vessel, to
form a carpet of HMTD. I'll have to buy me a digital camera :p
EDIT #2 - The HMTD finished forming some 18 hours later. after neutralising the citric acid with sodium bicarbonate, I left the
batch to dry out at room temperature.

Perhaps a tiny amount of forming HMTD reacted with the stainless steel as HMTD does, but I wouldn't think it too likely as the
HMTD wasn't even visibly forming at the time.
atlas#11 January 17th, 2004, 09:39 PM

I have heard of HMTD's incompatibility with metals and tested it(to some extent). here is what came of it. For stainless steel I
left less than a gram of pure dry hmtd on a spoon over night, in the morning the entire ammount of crystals had turned brown
red like Fe2O3 and were much more sensitive to a hammer blow, for lead I used filings off a bullet and noticed no changes
over night and was just as sensitive and seemed compatible(dont bet on it or any thing). And lastly I tested copper, the one
said to be the worst(they were right). it formed in to a brown green pile of crap that went off with the slightest tap with the
hammer. As for it reacting with metals in it's reaction vessel i havent tried it but i would guess it would. All of my synth have
been successful in that i got decient yields(around 60-70%), and I use simmered down 3% H2O2 to about 15% and it dosent
seem to want to react until it is cold. All of my synth are done outside in a snow bank and they have never been slow either. I
let them react over night to be sure and get every last miligram of it.
Ammonal January 20th, 2004, 06:50 AM

No runaway with 9%??? I had my first HMTD runaway using 200ml 6% H2O2, added the hexamine, cooled and added the HCl,
the temperature rose and sat on 7 degrees C. I had the reaction vessel sitting in an ice bath and 10 mins later I returned to
check on proceedings and the temperature had risen to 70 degrees C. I got no yield and burnt fingers from touching the
reaction vessel.
Second to that I cool everything and take every precaution within reason and have had pretty good success with every batch
since. A saying comes to mind about relaxed procedures causing accidents and mishaps... just follow other peoples directions
and when they say add the acid slowly; add it slowly and so on.
Wild Catmage January 20th, 2004, 09:49 AM

Wow, I just lit a half-pea sized lump of HMTD in a fume cupboard (because it has a screen) and the lump detonated with a
loud bang. There was no flash that I nor any of the two other observers noticed, and our ears were ringing afterwards. This has
taught me new respect for HMTD.
Sonny Jim January 31st, 2004, 12:19 PM

I decided to test out this runaway theory for myself, just now. I used 200ml 9% H2O2 and 28g hexamine, but instead of using
cirtic acid I used 91% sulphuric. The reaction ran very hot but did not foam or anything like that. In 5 minutes 50% by volume
of my reaction vessel was filled by a dense layer of HMTD, floating on top of the liquids.
crazyUser February 10th, 2004, 01:38 PM

In my dreams I often do some experiments and runaways only occured if i added all the hexamine at once (within ~30sec)
AND if the ammount of H2O2 was more than ~25ml AND only with h2o2 concentration > ~15%.
With very small batches <25ml I never experienced overheating problems..
I don't know if it was mentioned before, but if you put an hmtd reaction beeing overheated/going runaway into an icebath/
waterbath soon enough,
the reaction will continuously 'loose energy' and so will stop beeing selfsubstained after some time.
Now a little question from me :

In the dream I had yesterday I made a little bit bigger hmtd only charge (paper casing/5cm heigth/3.5cm width, shaped like a
tube (don't know whether this is the right word, forgive me please), pressed). What do you think how much hmtd would this be
(i think ~30 - 40g, right ?).
I detonated it about a mile away from our village in a field with very wet soil.
I sticked it in the ground that only the fuse was looking out and placed a ~3mm thick aluminiumplate directly in front of it in
the soil.
After det. there was a crater about 40 inches wide/30 inches deep (which is pretty impressive I think) but the plate only got a
big dent (4-5cm deep). Is this ok or should the plate be penetrated ?
The sound of the explosion could clearly and very loudly be heard in the village as my mom told me and i felt somewhat like
a shockwave beeing about 70feet away (not in the air, only in the ground, due to its wettness i think).
And just for comparism, what would a same sized charge of petn have done to the aluplate and soil ?
One last thing :forgive me for my english which surely isn't as good as it should be, hope you enjoyed my dreams ;)
Zeitgeist February 11th, 2004, 03:57 AM

I've never experienced any flash or flame with HTMD (or AP), provided it's dry so that it detonates and doesn't just deflagrate.
I'm not surprised it got hot SonnyJim, it's that concentrated H2SO4, you don't need that so strong.
Boomer February 12th, 2004, 12:03 PM

And just for comparism, what would a same sized charge of petn have done to the aluplate and soil ?
The crater would be only slightly bigger (2 x size = 8 x volume!), but the plate would be penetrated. I blew a hole into a 3mm
STEEL plate with 1/4 that amount of PETN, no confinement and without a cavity or even a real SC (with liner).
al93535 February 19th, 2004, 08:16 PM

I tried the synthesis of HMTD per Mega's instructions, with small variations. I used one Esbit tablet (14 grams) 100 ml of 15%
H2O2 (guessing concentration), and 35 grams of citric acid. I never really noticed any substantial temerature rise, with the
addition of Hex or the acid, a few degrees. I let the mixture react for 26 hours and got a dry yield of 4.7563201 grams,
apparently 51% theoretical yield. I will try again with a known 27% concentration of H2O2. My Esbit smelled a bit fishy as well,
so I suppose it decomposed a bit. I also found that I had to neutralize quite a bit more using the citric, as compared to using
HCL for AP.
Sylla February 20th, 2004, 06:22 AM

I've tried to calculate HMTD enthalpy and have found it to be -1000.5 kJ/mol. It's pure theory so I wonder if someone here
can tell me if it's correct (with an small error like ~5% of course) ? Considering the formula, density (1.41) and enthalpy I
found these values which seems to be correct :
C6H12N2O6 -> 6.0 C + 6.0 H2O + 1.0 N2 + 0.00 O2
M = 208.1 g/mol
Oxygen Balance = -92.24%
0.754 l/g of gaz
0.034 mols/g of gaz
Enthalpy of Explosion = -451.1 kJ/mol (-2167.55 J/g)

Explosive Power = 1633.82 (60% Of Picric Acid)
Approximated Temperature : 1743 Kelvin

Approximated VOD : 4727 m/s
On megalomania's webpage it is said that the VOD is about 4500m/s which is really close to my theorical value...
What do you think about this ?
simply RED February 20th, 2004, 09:21 AM

The reaction of the explosive decomposition of HMTD must be different. Like in all oxigen difficient explosives you never have
only H2O and Carbon.
See TNT.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > My first attempt
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View Full Version : My first attempt
krimmie April 28th, 2002, 02:02 PM

I used Megalomania's AP method. I combined 125 ml of both acetone and 27% H2O2(Baquacil). In the photo you can see it is still wet, but it weighed 8.4 grams...subtract the
coffee filter and I have 7 grams of AP.
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/krimmie/ap.JPG" target="_blank">krimmie's angelfire</a>

Does this look like AP to you experienced makers?
Copy and paste in case link doesn't work:http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/krimmie/ap.JPG
[ April 28, 2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: krimmie ]
glock April 28th, 2002, 03:24 PM

Seems like an abnormally small yeild, how much acid did you use? How long did you let it sit for?
mongo blongo April 28th, 2002, 03:54 PM

Yup that looks like AP but I think you should have let it react for much longer. Try it for about 2 days and you will get a much better yield.
[ April 28, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]
krimmie April 28th, 2002, 04:06 PM

Yeah,you're both right. I didn't add too much H2SO4(probably 20-25 ml) and let it react for only 1.5 hr.s. Part of the reason for this was(quite frankly) I was afraid of the stuff.
Well, I have an endless supply of the ingredients, thanks to Baquacil! I'll have to have a good ice supply on hand next time when I shoot for a better yield. BOY WAS THAT
STUFF FUN TO SET OFF!
[ April 28, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: krimmie ]
Arkangel May 3rd, 2002, 08:25 AM

Baquacil.......mmmmmmmm
Before I go and balls something up here. I've assumed that the baquacil I ordered was 27% H2O2 and water, however, the datasheet says it is:
"a 20% aqueous solution of polymeric biguanide hydrochloride, CAS-No 27083-27-8".
A search on the web only produced the same MSDS info as came with the product.
Being as I now have quite a lot of the stuff I am rather keen to know if it's "safe", or whether I will end up with some super unstable products when I use it. Ideas anyone?

I think that's just an algicide.
Arkangel May 3rd, 2002, 01:17 PM

Gadzooks, you are indeed correct.
On the containers (They appear to have sent me 8, 5 litre containers) it says that "BAQUACIL is one product in a 3 product system. It should be used with BAQUA SHOCK and
BAQUA CHECK"
So at least in the UK, Baqua Shock is the stuff you want.
Cheers Zambosan
electric emu May 10th, 2002, 01:09 AM

I just dreamed up my second batch of ap using baquacil (cost 12.50) for h2o2 and i got alot more crystals than i expected, about 3/5 of the solution was ap and i just got to
try it yesterday, a 9mm shell full of it blew a little metal car into a few pieces, im excited. Now i want to dream up some annm. Im scared of that ap.
P.S. colemans sells waterproof fuse for 17.50 per 100' and i got that and it seems nice.
[ May 10, 2002, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: electric emu ]

Hrm, I've been wanting to make AP, but I cant really get the balls to make the shit :( .
Anyone know the safest method?

What about the best way to wash it? I really dont want to blow myself to bits at such a young age. Any help would be apriciated(spelling?) :)

wicked, have you any experience with black powder or flash powder?
walk before you jump <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> that way you'll still have hands when your 20 :) ....make black powder then progress to flash
powder before actual detonating explosives.

Been there done that.
A_W May 11th, 2002, 06:01 AM

Why don`t you start out with HMTD (like me)? The procedure for making HMTD is (quite) safe. It is the finished explosive that is dangerous, but if it has been neutralized
properly, and you treat it like it should be treated, than you shouldn`t have a problem. But if you really want to make AP, I think the difference between AP, and HMTD isn`t
that big. (but I have never made AP)
When it comes to neutralizing, 00Buckshot had a great idea:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To neutralize I use the coffee
filter as a tea bag, and just hold under the tap for a minute or so, then I dunk the tea bag into the bicarb mix a few times making sure that all the bubbles stop. Then I hold it
under the tap again for a minute.
<hr /></blockquote>
xoo1246 May 11th, 2002, 07:18 AM

Remove
A_W May 11th, 2002, 09:17 AM

xoo1246, are you sure that the HMTD will not dissolve in the acetone? (that`s what I`ve heard). In that case, the yield will decrease.
One of the reasons I love HMTD, is that you need no dangerous chemicals, unlike AP, where you can`t use citric acid, and have to use mineral-acids like HCl.
xoo1246 May 11th, 2002, 09:42 AM

Remove

Ok, thanks for the info, I'm gunna start with HTMD, since I want my hands at the age of fifteen. Anyone know the best way to make it? What about the exact way to wash it
(yet again I want my hands. As nbk put it "not "stumpy"" in refrence to "8 month old AP")
:)
Zach May 11th, 2002, 10:23 PM

you should start out by editing your post, wicked. then move on to the search page and find a thread on washing procedures and such.

Some people know better ways and they dont post it, zach. besides, do you know how many freaking results it would pop up?
Lazy01001 May 12th, 2002, 12:07 AM

Heh heh, I have known wicked for a while, and the kid does know what he is talking about. As for washing it... I'd rather have someone else do it, while I cower behind a blast
shield.
Wicked May 12th, 2002, 12:10 AM

ANSON! YOU WHOREBAG FROM HELL! :p
(Get it back on topic or topic closes)
[ May 12, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]
A_W May 12th, 2002, 06:12 AM

Wicked, just look up a topic called "HMTD". The topic is 3 pages long, and should contain all the info you need about making/washing HMTD. The making of HMTD isn`t
dangerous, neither is the washing. It is preparing and detonating the finished HMTD charges that is dangerous.
xoo1246 May 12th, 2002, 11:15 AM

Remove

:) ok tyvm dude, and yeah, im not going to be making anymore than three grams at a time. laters.
A_W May 12th, 2002, 03:12 PM

Okay, maybe I shouldn`t say that it is NOT dangerous, but if you follow the procedure and don`t do obvious mistakes, like using metal containers or impure chemicals, not
using ice-bath etc. the danger of making HMTD isn`t really that big.
If you add the hexamine too fast, the mixture may overheat and start to steam. You have to dump the mixture into a bucket of water, and loose the entire batch, but at least
you won`t have to deal with NO2.
The danger of overheating increases along with the size of the batch, so like xoo said; stick to small batches. I now make them 3/5 of the normal size, but I started with 1/5.
The yield is (obviously) smaller, but so is the danger.
If it overheats, it will (most likely) not explode. This has never happened to me, so I really can`t tell you what happens to a batch that overheats and is not dumped. (I think it
will boil and steam for a while, and then settle down.)
What I can say for certain, is that HMTD is ALOT safer than most other high-explosives (wich recuire nitric acid).
[ May 12, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: A_W ]

Ive never made htmd before but i just saw the topic that said esbit could be used and i have that and the rest of the chemicals.
[ May 14, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
A_W May 15th, 2002, 05:45 PM

Electric emu, do you have any experiance with BP and flashpowder? In that case, I reccomend HMTD as your first HE. Really easy to make. The process itself is quite safe, if
you don`t make any big mistakes, and stay to the recipie.
What is the conc. of your H2O2? Mine is 6%, and works fine. I don`t use Esbit, but my tablets (Coghlans) seem to be very pure hex. Make sure that your H2O2 is fresh, since
old (exposed to air and light) has probably decomposed, and it will be to weak.
I have some 27% baquacil that is only about a month old and have had some experience with bp but not much with flash powder.

Just a question, how did you detonate AP in a 9mm shell? You couldn't fit much of det. charge (say BP) in there..
DBSP May 17th, 2002, 10:49 AM

He just might have used a fuse. :D

Yea, I used some fuse and put tp around it to keep it in now for bigger things.
[ May 17, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]
Duriel May 18th, 2002, 02:20 AM

All my AP (a stunning 30g!!!) has always exploded on me (well not ON me, but around me) and left a big mess to clean up. Maybe that's just me

if you working with organic peroxides, you must be MUCH more carefuller, you just can't make stupid mistakes with explosives. Don't just think at yourself(maybe you don't
give a damn about your live) but also think about the ones of others... don't see this as a flame but just at a correction.
Duriel May 19th, 2002, 12:38 AM

if me working with organic peroxides, ill be much more carefuller in the future!!!
lol
im careful... but the climate here is dry and hot..... so its hard to keep the stuff from cooking off, short of using 100 humidifiers and running the air conditioning on full blast
A_W May 19th, 2002, 05:33 AM

Are you using an ice-bath? (wich I highly reccomend that you do). If so, I don`t see a reason for your runaways.
Did the 30 grams actually detonate?? How close were you to it when it went off? 30 grams is quite a bang if you`re only yards away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]"
src="frown.gif" />

30 grams (if dry) will definately detonate !!!
I hand about 20 grams detonating 2-3 meters away from me once, and I can assure you, it is quite a blast !!!
You like, get a real smack all over your body from the shockwave and all the debris that is thrown up by it (if you're lucky and the AP wasn't in some container, otherwise you
get some schrapnel with it), beside temporal deafness and a few minor scratches nothing happened to me.
My face was all red though, exitement or all small burst blood veins, I don't know ...
xoo1246 May 20th, 2002, 05:53 AM

Remove
DBSP May 20th, 2002, 06:56 AM

How and why did it detonate??
Duriel May 22nd, 2002, 12:03 AM

Probably the same reason why nitro detonates...
andreas June 19th, 2002, 12:35 PM

whell I once had a batch of 20 grams ap go off 4 meters away from me
I think the reason it detonated was because the deflagration on the outside of the pile made confinement enough for the rest to detonate.
It was quite a blast my father heard it a few blocks away. The reason I did this test was becouse it was my first batch with 30%h2o2 and it was an unexpected high
yeild,about 60 grams.
So the obvious thing to do to me was coocking it in portions :D

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Dextrin
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View Full Version : Dextrin
Kdogg October 17th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 5 : 4 3 P M

Im wondering if any of you kn ow a good procedure for making d extrin. Im looking forward to trying out some black match.
This is a R ecipe I found on google, I was wondering if it was accurate:

" Y o u ' l l n e e d s o m e com mon Corn Flour (or Corn Starch) from the supermarket. Spread this out in a thin (1/2 inch thick) layer
on a baking tray. Place this in the oven for abo ut 4 to 6 hours on a high setting, 220 to 240 degrees Celcius. You will know
when the starch has been converted to Dextrin, because it will have turned a dark er colour, golden brown. "
------------------
Monkeym an
kingspaz October 17th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 6 : 0 6 P M

isn't that from J's website?
yes it works. i haven't tried it for the 6 hours. i think that tem ps a bit high though ...when i tried it for an hour i had to turn it
down to about 185*C because it starte d sm okin. also i've read 182*C is correct tem p but it could be m y brain playing up
again...
Donutty October 17th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 6 : 3 2 P M

Isn't corn flour com pletely different from corn starch?? I'd imagine that corn flour is as is says (but isn't all flour made from
s o m e type of corn?? - or maybe this is corn like popping corn) and that corn starch is the starch from this flour. I think they
could be com pletely different things.
------------------
kingspaz October 17th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 6 : 4 7 P M

d r o p s o m e idodine solution onto flour. it turns blue/black. starch is present. flour is mostly starch but corn flour is pure starch.
m ine says on the side its ground m aize starch. i only re cently realised that when people talk about corn starch they mean corn
flour...or maybe they don't...well even if i was wrong that still lead m e to finding out corn flour is starch.
Kdogg October 17th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 7 : 5 3 P M

king spaz IS RIGHT!!!! That tem p was way to high. I started it in a pizza frier, & Checked o n it about every 5 minutes for a hour
or so, it looked exactly the sam e everytim e I checked. Then tha t last tim e I c hec ked i t l o o ked t he s a me a l s o , s o I left it sit
another 5 m inutes, Before I knew it the whole house wa s filled with sm oke & the shit was on fire. I had it going in m y room
near a door. So I just unplugged it & took it outside. Luckily it didnt ruin the frier, but all my starch went fro m a 1/2 inch pile of
soft white powder to a huge 6 inch black m ound of soot shit.
------------------
Monkeym an
MacCleod October 17th , 2 0 0 1 , 1 1 : 0 5 P M

Corn flour and corn starch are indeed different,corn flour being finely ground corn (not to be confused with white flour,which is
ground bleached wheat).
------------------
"That which does not kill us,m a k e s u s s t r o n g e r "
cutefix October 18th , 2001, 04:09 AM

I realize, tha t for an Englishman the cornflour is synonym ous to American cornsta rch.I did experience this predicament when
I wa s working with a British co lleague in an ove r s e a s j o b . . I n d e e d t h e re was an argum e n t a b o u t i t , a n d u n f o r t u n a t e l y t h e re
w a s n o s a m ple of both products for com parison,and was only sorted out using carbohydrate chem istry,as well as how its
m aterials is obtained from the grain.If you will notice, cornflour appears granular and feels som ewhatgritty while cornstarch
look s very fine and sm ooth to touch.
Cornstarch can be converted to maxim um quantities to dextrin than cornflour which contains aside form sta rch; non starch
polysaccharides cellulosic m aterials like pentosans,hemicellulose etc.)
kingspaz October 21st, 2001, 06:18 PM

right, i've m a d e s o m e heres what i did:
put corn flour on a metal tray
spre ad it out as thin as possible
left it in the oven at 185*C for about 1 1/2 hours
thats it! it will look just the sam e afterwards apart from a kinda golden tinge to it.
Donutty October 21st, 2001, 07:07 PM

Isn't that just toasted corn flour then? http://th eforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/smile.gif
W here can you buy dextrin? Is it used for food products in any way? I know you can order it from pyro com panies, but surely
there is another use for it...
------------------
kingspaz October 21st, 2001, 07:12 PM
i bet they use it in sticky swee ts. its not worth buying though considering how easily made it is. i th ink i've seen it on food
ingredients before...HARIBO! i think it may be in those. (emphasis on think!)
Donutty October 27th , 2001, 10:50 AM

O K , I a d m i t d e f e a t . T his is taken directly from the packet of Corn Flour I just bought:
"Brown & Polson Original Patent Cornflour is pure fine white corn starch m illed from m aize grain from which the outer hull, ge rm
a n d g l u t e n h a v e b e e n r e m o v e d b y a p a t e n t e d m illing process"
So, Cornflour = Corn Starch!!
Glad we settled that one...
------------------
Gab October 27th , 2001, 11:27 AM

If you m ix corn starch with water, you will get a half-liquid half-solid goo. You can dip things in it or pour it in another container
but if you punch it with your fist, it be solid and your fist won't go into it all and none will splatters.
CodeMason October 27th , 2 0 0 1 , 1 2 : 4 3 P M

From Dick's Encyclopedia:
4345. Dextrine or Sta rch Gum
Heat 4 gallons watter in a water-bath to betwee n 77 an d 86 Fahr.; stir in 1 1/2 or 2 pounds finely ground malt; raise the
temperature to 140, add 10 pounds potato or other starch; mix all thoroughly, raise the heat to 158 and keep it between
that and 167 for 20 or 30 m inutes. When the liquor becom es thin, instantly raise the heat to the boiling point, to prevent the
form ation of sugar. Strain the liquor, a nd evaporate it to dryness, as the dextrine will not keep long in a liq uid form. Another
m ethod is to boil solution of starch with a few d rops of sulphuric acid, filter the solution, and add alcohol to throw do wn the
dextrine.
Or: Mix 500 parts potato starch with 1500 parts of cold distilled water and 8 parts of pure oxalic acid; place this m ixture in a
suitable vessel on a water-bath, and heat until a sm all sam ple tested with iodine solution does not produce the reaction of
starch. W hen this is found to be the case, im m e d i a t e l y r e m ove the vessel from the water-bath, and neutralize the liquid with
pure carbonate of lim e. After having been left standing for a couple of days the liquor is filtered, and the clear filtrate
evaporated upon a water-bath until the mass h as become quite a paste, which is rem o v e d b y a s p a t u l a , a n d , h a v i n g b e e n
m ade into a thin cake, is placed upon paper and further dried in a warm place; 220 parts of pure dextrine are thus obtained .
------------------
Visit m y website (in development): http://codem ason.cjb.net
mark October 27th , 2 0 0 1 , 0 5 : 1 3 P M

If your m a k i n g b l a c k m atch forget about dextrin. Use ruber cem ent. I know it sounds kewl, but it realy is the superior binder. It
hold s the black powder very well, and the fuse is very flexible. None of the powder cracks of when bent.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Comparing AP and HMTD
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View Full Version : Comparing AP and HMTD
BrAiNFeVeR April 10th, 2002, 11:05 AM

I did some comparing tests between the most popular organic peroxides (in our field anyway) to see how efficint they use the
oxidising power of the H2O2.
So I scaled down the formulas, taken from megalania's lab, to the point where they both required 10 ml 30% H2O2.
I used HCl instead of H2SO4 as a catalyst in the procedure to make AP, because I think it is safer.
Both reacting vessels where cooled int he same ice bath, and catalysts where added and dissolved in a similar rate.
Both stood overnight (more then enough time) and where filtered, neutralized with bicarb solution and rinsed with methyl
alcohol to speed up drying rate. Dried in warm place 25C, in half shadow.
HMTD:
50ml 30% H2O2 + 14gr hexamine + 21gr citric acid
Adjusted forumula:
10ml 30% H2O2 + 2.9 gr hexamine + 4.2gr citric acid
Yield 4.75 gr HMTD
AP:
30ml 30% H2O2 + 50ml acetone + 3 ml 70% H2SO4
Adjusted formula:
10ml 30% H2O2 + 16.6ml acetone + 10ml 10-20% HCl
Yield 7.5 gr AP
Out of this I conclude that, with no doubt, AP most efficiently used the H2O2.
With end products, APAN and HMTDAN tests will be made, and results will be posted (no pics because no cam :( )
[ April 10, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: BrAiNFeVeR ]

Just to be clear, is that "gr" grams or grains?

:rolleyes: grams of course, what are grains ? How many gram is a grain ?
You should know that Europe uses the metric system.
I'll never be able to figure out the need for that retarded system of ounces and gallons and all that shit. May lighting strike
the mofo who invented that !!

A grain is used in reloding since it recuires some very small adjustments. I'm my memory doesn't fail me a grain is about
0,06g(grams).

If you want to make sure that the reaction used the highest H2O2 amount possible, you should do the following:
After the reaction has come to an end, add hexamine and HCl just to make sure that the reaction hasn't stopped because
there is lack for these compounds.
Additionally, your test will give more comparable results when using the same catalyst for both the synthesis of HMTD and of
AP.
Yi April 11th, 2002, 06:27 AM

Those are some horrible HMTD yields. My dreams tell me you can expect ~10g (repeatedly) from that amount of hexamine &
30% H2O2. You have to leave it for quite a lot longer than overnight though. 24hours is more like it.
[Edit: Also your yield will decrease as you are using small amounts. More is lost in the filtering process and also it is less
efficient (it seems).]
[ April 11, 2002, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Yi ]

It's worth being sure :) I'm used to seeing grams abbreviated to "gm", it's just you silly Europeans that must go confusing
everything:P
The imperial system is based on centuries of proven use in the field. The metric system was created by scientists who just
work with numbers. Not to mention that the metric system was based on an incorrect measurement of the earth, nor that it was
created by the French. No offence to our French associates but historically the English *have* to disagree with the French, it's
just tradition.
Personally I used a combination of the two, I was taught metric at school (thanks EU) and learnt imperial from my father in
practical work.
Why didn't you use HCl to catalyse the HMTD reaction?


Do you guys drive on the wrong side of the road just because you wouldn't act like the french ? ;-)
It really stood long enough, more then 24 hours. I just used the expression overnight to indicate long time. the AP on the
sides was allready dry btw.
I didn't use HCl to catalyze the HMTD, because it only seems to work for me using citric acid, maybe I'll try it again
sometime...
Yesterday some more testing was done, this time with mixtures of the peroxides and AN.
Each charge was buried 20-25 cm deep, to reduce sound (pregnant horse nearby).
4 charges where set off (made from 2 times 10 grams):
- 7 grams of HMTDAN
- 7 grams of APAN
- 3 grams of HMTDAN
- 3 grams of APAN
In my opinion, the APAN is louder then the HMTDAN, and the HMTDAN has more moving force (lower VOD ?).
The big charge of HMTDAN, when reaching the surface, swept up quite some dirt that I had to sweep of the lawn, while, when
the shockwave from the APAN hit the surface, hardly any sand got on the lawn.
With the smaller charges, similar behaviour was noticed.
On a seperate note, has anybody had headaches from HMTD ???

Allmost every time I get some on my hands due to testing, not much later I get a short and annoying headache (not much
pain, but a lot more then I am used from NG !!) :confused:
I feel that I can rule out AP, because I have worked with it before, and never had any trouble ...

Helvetica">I didn't use HCl to catalyze the HMTD, because it only seems to work for me using citric acid, maybe I'll try it again
sometime...<hr /></blockquote>Yes, it takes some time until the
reaction starts when using HCl, but for me it works quite well.

Helvetica">On a seperate note, has anybody had headaches from HMTD ???
Allmost every time I get some on my hands due to testing, not much later I get a short and annoying headache.<hr /
></blockquote>I never got a headache from HMTD. Do you think it can be
absorbed by through the skin?
I assume that you wear gloves when synthesizing HMTD. Did you experience a headache after doing so? If yes, the reason
could also be the formation of some byproduct that is volatile and enters your body per inhalationem, e.g... let's say,
methylamine.
I also touched HMTD with my bare hands, but I didn't feel anything unpleasant.

The tenion from working with primarys always gave me a headache. Its just nerve wracking pressing the stuff into little
containers.

When pressing AP, will gloves do anything for you if it were to go off? Is there any way you can be perfectly safe, even if it
does go off in your hand?
RTC April 12th, 2002, 12:21 AM

Depends on how much really. But whatever the amount it's gonna sting! Perhaps more..
nbk2000 April 12th, 2002, 01:46 AM

If it's pressed in a cap, and you're holding it when it goes off...glove or no glove, you're losing fingers.
Just a couple inches makes the difference between being called "Stumpy", and just having some nasty cuts.
Use tongs, pliers, etc to hold the cap as much as possible. Use levers or vises to press the primary, not your hand.
I carried my dets by the fuze or wire, if I didn't have any sucke...er...friends <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> to carry it, never by the det body itself.

Agreed, a few extra inches does make a BIG difference <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I also carry my caps by the end of the fuse, I also transport them wrapped in tissue paper (shock absorbtion) inside an ammo
box.
IIRC, many countries switched to driving on the right as they were released from the British Empire :)

Yeah, size DOES matter, I'd hate it being called stumpy :)
Back on topic, I really like this use of AP !!
Too bad I'm not allowed to make much noise, I'd like to hear it in its full force ...
Only 5 grams of APAN (0.5 gr AP) make a pretty big sphere in the soil, I can reach in with my hand, after pushing the top of
the sphere down in it, and I estimate a diameter of about 15-20 cm and it's bit elliptic too, bigger diameter then height.

Heh, If only the Palestinians would follow that advice. According to Time magazine dozens and dozens of Palestinians have
died making AP for the suicide belts.
VX April 12th, 2002, 07:09 PM

What? do they use AP as the main charge?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

yer! the idiots use a belt of pipes full of the stuff <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Dont discourage them

That way, when they ckicken out on the last bit, it only takes a sniper with an aim on the belt to "save the day" ;-)
Though i still have severe doubts about the safety of APAN against pure AP, ofcourse it is safer, but how much ?
Can someone run some friction/impact/flame tests ? (standard 10% AP or less)
I'll bet the change is not very much with friction and impact tests :-/

How your prepared the HMTDAN and APAN?
AN is so fast absorb water vapour from the air and wet the mix powder.
The wet powder will still detonate by light with visco fuse in normal
confinment?
Anyway to mix this stuffs will remain the sensitivity and avoid the water absorb effect of AN?
BrAiNFeVeR June 14th, 2002, 10:05 AM

Keep it airtight sealed or use it before it can get wet (this is not an explosive you want to store !!) If you live in a very moist
region, it's gonna be a pain to keep it dry
I think it will still explode when there is only a few percent water in it, and if you use a good detonator ...
Don't thrust it to be safe when it's wet tho !!
nitriees July 3rd, 2002, 05:31 AM

Last night, I try to detonate some HMTD/KNO3 mix in 1:4 proportion.
The detonator make by slightly press HMTD into 30mm long drinking straw.
Put the straw detonator into paper tube with 15mm diameter and 4mm thickness, 50mm long. Cover one end of paper tube
with tisu paper and glue, drill a hole for fuse.
Load the HMTD/KNO3 mix and cover the other end.
It give a nice " bang ", the detonation sound seems like deeper compare to set off HMTD alone.
Since KNO3 is not hydroscopic as AN, can it be use to replace AN?
What's the difference in power compare to HMTD/AN mix?
Anthony July 3rd, 2002, 02:05 PM

Why did you put the HMTD filled straw into a thick paper tube? Putting a barrier between primary (HMTD) and the seconday
(KNO3/HMTD) will make the blasting cap less effective.
nitriees July 3rd, 2002, 09:58 PM

Sorry about my confuse language.
The barrier between HMTD (primary) and HMTD/KNO3 mix (main charge) just a straw only. The paper tub is outest.
I try to set off HMTD/KNO3 mix with HMTD.
Will it be as powerful as HMTD/AN mix?
Any idea if KNO3/Fuel Oil mix can be set off?
BrAiNFeVeR July 5th, 2002, 08:54 AM

Well, If you're sure the KNO3/HMTD mix had a full detonation, it might be possible to detonate other KNO3 + fuel mixtures ...
I think somebody allready tried KNO3/NM an achieved full det, maybe you can try KNO3/Al, but I doubt this will detonate, if it
does, it will require quite some booster I imagine.
How many grams of HMTd do you fit in a straw ? I only get 0.5 grams in 3/4 cm I don't risk to put alot of pressure on it, even
in small quantity's it can easily remove a finger.
I recommend a very thick block of shatterproof material to press these things !!
KinePak July 6th, 2002, 01:01 PM

I had this dream that I made some AP, and had almost 100% yield, and for the past week I had been dehydrating it in a
dehydrator, I know thats crazy but I figured as long as its not confined it will just flame up and not explode, but boy was I
wrong, last night I had my dehydrator explode all over my kitchen and I will never get all the pieces it put a hole in my ceiling,
would any one know why it exploded and didnt just flash. Sorry if I posted in the wrong section but yall are talking about Ap,
so I htought this would be okay
BrAiNFeVeR July 6th, 2002, 02:17 PM

It really depends on the volume of your dehydrator and the amount of AP.
AP does NOT need a lot of confinement to explode, a tissue is more then enough !!!
Just thank God you weren't in the same room when it exploded. Or are you typing this from the hospital ?
Just goes to show AP is not something you wan't to be messing around with in larger quantities ...

KinePak, for it to detonate without reason i would say it would be due to poor washing after manufacture. it should be washed
thoroughly inwater, then bicarb solution then in water again and bicarb again. the final bicarb wash will leave bicarb traces in
the AP maning any acid missed will be neutralised later. but seriously if you make AP ALLWAYS expect it to explode at
anytime. its not at all predictable.
KinePak July 7th, 2002, 09:56 AM

No, I was upstairs on the computer, my g-friend was in the shower and I was about to go down and check on it and Ka-Fuckin
Boom, Dehydrator pieces all over my kitchen fumes were so bad I couldnt even get in there, it was serious shit,m and it scared
the hell out of me, I want be drying out AP in my dehydrator anymore to say the least. I was very lucky, My dream afterwards I
Went to my lake and used the Ap as a Primer with some PETN I got out of my detcord ,and Exploded some nice craters inthe
ground with some Kinepak I had , it was awseome dirt flying 300ft in the air, it was a rush to say the least, hopefully I can get
some more kinepak soon
nbk2000 July 7th, 2002, 12:53 PM

Why the fuck would you have AP in a dehydrator for a wee?! :confused:
It probably subliminated from the warmer parts and recondensed on the cooler parts, forming fragile crystals which eventually
broke under internal stresses or their own weight and exploded.
A few hours in the open air on a dinner plate will dry it adequately. And save you a few dollars too. :)
KinePak July 7th, 2002, 06:29 PM

NONONO, I didnt dehydrate it for a week, I only dehydrated it for like 45minutes to an hour, I had been using that dehyrating
method for a week to dry out other batches of AP that I had made. I am not that dumb, well I did put it in a dehyrator
thaough didnt I, thats about the only dumb thing I did, otherwise I was extremly careful
nitriees July 8th, 2002, 10:29 PM

I always put HMTD in to sodium bicarbonate solution for more than 5 hours to neutralise it after filter.
I dry this powder outsite where not direct to sun for whole day.
Quite save to handle, hand press it in straw or paper tube.
Yesterday I set off 15g slighty press HMTD/KNO3 mix in paper tube and
stick on 1mm thick steel plate, it make a 50mm diameter hole. Nice!!

nitriees, peroxide explosives are never safe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Well.... at least with Bicarb it's a little safer .
Oh god, I just looked at the BS boards for a good laugh and I saw a guy who said "Why do you need to wash AP? I never wash
mine".
God damn. those Idiots end up like <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/losers/injury2.jpg" target="_blank">this kid</
a>
FarbrorBosse July 19th, 2002, 12:35 AM

This is not really an issue about comparing HMTD and ATCP but
since there are no pure AP posts I'll post it here instead of
starting a new thread since I've read the rules. :)
I need some feedback on my ATCP calculations..

I have searched the web and checked on this forum,
and also on megas own very nice explosive page here,
but there seems to be no balance in any of those...
I want X g ==> X g, where X is constant.
The text file can be found on the ftp or downloaded from

<a href="http://0bitus.tripod.com/files/atcp_balanced_formula.txt" target="_blank">http://0bitus.tripod.com/files/
atcp_balanced_formula.txt</a>
[edited, nothing personal but I dislike yellow smilies.]
Sam July 23rd, 2002, 04:43 AM

brainfever- 1 grain is exactly 0.0648 grams
Flying Dutchman August 31st, 2002, 10:54 AM

Could someone help me?
I want to make AP but this are the chemicals I can get:
H2O2 30%
HCL 29%
H2SO4 37%
H2SO4 >98%
and offcorse aceton
Witch sould I use as a catalyst? HCL, H2SO4 37% or the >98% H2SO4?
I want as much yield as possible offcorse:D
another question how much of everything sould I use for a yield of 5-10 Gramms? (I don't want to blow my self up it's my first
time making AP.
Thanks
vulture August 31st, 2002, 11:07 AM

Don't ask! Search!
And the fact that you don't know which chemical to use and how much of it already indicates you shouldn't be messing with AP!
Flying Dutchman August 31st, 2002, 11:27 AM

I'm sorry,
I will search more.
again I'm sorry.
I'll hope NBK has some mercy
-FD
vulture August 31st, 2002, 01:49 PM

Okay, Okay. Didn't intend to be that mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<a href="http://roguesci.org/megalomania/explo/acetoneperoxide.html" target="_blank">AP</a>
nbk2000 August 31st, 2002, 03:32 PM

At least he didn't start a new thread to ask this question. :rolleyes:
So you can stay...but christ, work on your english spelling!
AND SEARCH!
THErAPIST August 31st, 2002, 04:19 PM

alright, i have a question about AP here. ive never made the stuff. ive always made HMTD because according to megas
proedure it has a slightly higher VoD than AP, and its more stable than AP. its easier for me to get the chems i need for AP
than it is to get the chems i need for HMTD. i have to order my hexamethylenetetramine offa the net which gets kinda
expensive. i was wonderin if anyone has ever made AP and not kept it in the frigerator while it was forming. ive heard of just
letting it sit on a desk and ive heard of throwin it in the frig for a couple days. im kinda controversial on putting it in the fridge
because of my parents who would be mentally slow enough to grab the jar (theyve done that when i have put my HMTD mix in
there to chill it before) but i dont want it to be extremely unstable. so if i must use the fridge i will. if anyone has made it
without putting it in the fridge i would like to hear about the results. also i think i saw something on a post made a long time
ago about the impact sensativity of AP and then the impact sensativity of HMTD. if anyone could tell me which thread that was
in i would apreciate it.
kingspaz August 31st, 2002, 04:50 PM

there are two common forms of AP that we encounter and that is the dimer and trimer. the dimer form is less stable, isn't as
powerful and tends to be the larger constituent if the AP is made warm and not chilled. if the mixture is cooled to a low
temperature like in a firdge then the trimeric form will be the larger constituent making the resulting explosive more stable
and powerful. this is yet another reason for AP's unpredictable nature. everytime you make it there will allways be slight
variations in temperature and therefore variations in ratio of trimeric to dimeric leading to differences in stability and sensitivity
between batches.
EP August 31st, 2002, 05:40 PM
You could put it in a cooler of ice outside if you don't want to leave it in the fridge. That's what I'm thinking of doing...
Flying Dutchman August 31st, 2002, 06:10 PM

English is not my first language that's why my grammer is a little messed up...
and yeh I wouldn't want a batch of AP in my fridge.
and NBK thanks for letting me stay here,
I really am willing to learn alot.
-FD

Let's be rational, AP may be quite sensitive, but it isn't going to just detonate in solution whilst sitting in the fridge :rolleyes:
If you were to use high conc H2O2 and just through the stuff into the fridge, then it could boil over whilst in the fridge. Or the
reaction vessel could fall over whilst unattended. The worst that's likely to happen is that you get some midly poisonous
chemicals on your food.
Just treat it with respect and me sensible (think!) and you'll be ok.
andreas August 31st, 2002, 08:53 PM

To flying dutchmann 5-10 grams of ap isn't going to blow you up but is still able to take of you'r hand and disfigure parts of
your body.
So once more use it with respect and commen sence
THErAPIST August 31st, 2002, 11:32 PM

yea i knew that there were two forms of AP one of which being less stable but i didnt know that there was any difference in
power. and when i say my parents may mess with it, im not worried about it detonating. im worried about my parents shakin it
around and maybe just setting the jar outside on the patio table. last time my mom found my stuff she kinda played wuth it.
she walked into my room kinda shakin the jar so that the solution was makin a small whirlpool, as she was askin me what it
was. then when i told her that it was my HMTD she put it outside on the patio table. i dont wanna run into that problem with AP
so i guess ill just put the jar in a small cooler outside, surround the jar with ice, and then put some AN on top of the ice so that
itll stay a little colder for a little longer.
edit: forgot to menttion that im not worried about anything that has to do with high concentrations of H202 because i only use
6%. i buy 2 big bottles of 3% and i evaporate em in a dish to a half of the origonal volume. damn i wish they just sold 6%
around here
[ August 31, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: THErAPIST ]
NoltaiR September 1st, 2002, 01:00 AM

Loading AP in caps is very nerve racking.. especially since I had a very close call when I first began making the infamous
primary a few years back. I always packed it wet (not sure why.. lack of impatience probably) which made it more safe of a
procedure but then you face the problem that most likely will not dry completely. Anyways I pushed a short fuse in it (way to
short.. at this point in time I still wasn't exactly sure how spark/heat sensitive AP is) and lit a match to ignite the fuse. As soon
as the match touched the fuse a spark jumped and hit the AP (even though it was only a 1.5g cap) and rather than a
complete detonation that would occur when dry, a low pop along with a 7-8 inch bright yellow and white fireball came out barely
missing my bare fingers. That was certainly a wake up call to all aspects of AP... needless to say from then on I used electrical
ignition which works especially well with AP because it is so heat sensitive.
But a while after that I developed APrc (AP and rubber cement as a binder) which eliminated the need for a confinement. It
also drastically increases the VoD (as much as I can tell from visual confirmation) and for a limited amount of time, the clump
of APrc is waterproof when submerged under water (which made for some very easy and very powerful depth charges). And for
one more added feature, the clumps of APrc were sticky to the touch (unless you let them dry for too long) so they could be
placed on vertical surfaces that would otherwise not be possible with you common cap.
J.T.Ripper September 1st, 2002, 08:17 AM

I just used my first AP charge today. i was very happy with the results. I'm intending to cast my next batch with ping-pong
balls and acetone. I think that i made the dimmer vesion of AP because all I did was mix it all together and place it in a
corner of my shed thats always dark and about 8C' with some ice bags on it.
I left it for 16 hour and got a good result of about 10 grams.
Anthony September 1st, 2002, 11:47 AM

If you do make it, or anything else for that matter, use the cooler outside. You shouldn't put your shit in a position where
ignorant people will mess with it.
THErAPIST September 1st, 2002, 04:30 PM

my moms slow sometimes. she usually doesnt touch it. only when my sister pisses her off and she gets uptight baout
everything. my dad wont go near the stuff. but yea. im goin to get some acetone and sulfuric tomorrow. maybe hcl. prices
keep changin
FarbrorBosse September 1st, 2002, 08:48 PM

The dimer form of AP seem to form more when using high conc H2SO4, but not noticeable with HCL.
The more H2SO4 the more dimer and less trimer form of AP. I have had no problems with creating AP at room temp more
then the fact light will break down H2O2 into oxygen and water so if you have it outside the fridge and the lid is on, allowing
no gas to get out, the bottle might explode caused by the expanded gas produced. The big problem is the higher your temp
is the more acetone will leave your solution. If temp is over 56C your acetone will start to boil and very soon you will have no
acetone that can react with the H2O2. So keeping the mix cold is recommended.
When dripping H2SO4 into your hydrogen peroxide + acetone mix some of the sulfuric acid will react with the H2O2 and form
H2SO5 and water.
"H2O2 + H2SO4 < == > H2SO5 + H2O"
According to swedish informania you get pure dimer form when using
peroxymonosulfuric Acid, and that is what you get when dripping high concentration sulfuric acid into hydrogen peroxide. The
higher conc of acid the more H2SO5 is formed.
If you are uncertain about your AP being dimer or trimer take a teaspoon of your finished AP. Then you let the steam from
boiling water heat the spoon. The trimer form of AP will melt and turn into a liquid while the dimer form will still be crystals
since the melting point of dimer AP is ~133C. Let it be heated for about 5 minutes and all you have left in the spoon is
dimer, hopefully nothing at all.
Anthony September 1st, 2002, 09:55 PM

The higher yield of dimmer when using high conc H2SO4 is usually caused by the heating effect of the acid.
No one's AP solution should be anywhere near 54*C! Seriously, you do want to keep things nice and cold people...
andreas September 5th, 2002, 04:05 PM

That's why al the crapbooks state that sulphuric acid forms dimer and hydrochloric forms trimer. As anthony said sulphuric acid
heats up extremely when hydrated whereas hydrochloric doesn't heat up as much. But Cooling the sulphuric in the freezer to -
20 helps as does adding it DROP by DROP. By the way does anybody know what the brown gas is that sometimes evolves
when you accidentally squirt the seringe with sulfuric to fast in other words add the sulphuric to fast.

I think temp does have something to do with yield (even when speaking of temps below 20*C). Now it may just be
coincidence, but I tend to get a faster production of AP in my freezer (-5*C) than in my refrigerator (5-10*C).
I personally have always used 94% H2SO4.

Decomposed hexamine?

yer NoltaiR, that is correct. it is because solubility decreases with temperature. more AP will crystalise if the mix is cooled to a
cooler temperature as the AP will be less soluble. although not water soluble everything is allways slightly soluble (learnt that
from philou..).
Flying Dutchman September 5th, 2002, 06:07 PM

ok I know this is not the right place to post. Uhuh, so why did you go and post it here anyway then?
I searched on the Forum for ANFO and ANNM.
The only thing I would like to know ,
What ratios AN--> Diesel or AN-->NM do you guys use.
I would really like an answer, I couldn't find it in Mega's place.
Thanks
-FD
a)it's common knowledge - do a websearch b) both have been mentioned numerous times in threads here at the forum. I'd
suggest you hit the search engine again, or just read some old threads in the HE section.
FarbrorBosse September 21st, 2002, 01:26 PM

If you have the right ratios there will be nothing the AP can dissolve in since we all know the only thing created in the end is
water and AP plus you have the catalyst, and AP will not dissolve in HCL.
Now if you have an unbalanced formula when making ap, who leaves unreacted acetone in your batch I can agree you will get
a higher yield at lower temp, but who does not calculate the ratio before the lab??
The yield problem is more a matter of acetone leaving the mix, making it unable to react with the H2O2 easily solved by
letting the reaction take place in a closed bottle with just cool water flushing on the outside.
[edit]: I have compared yields at 0 and 30 degrees and the yield is identical, it is more a matter of how much catalyst you
choose to have, if you have to little the PH will not be low enough and there will be a very slow reaction.
Also if you have low konc reactant there will be alot of water in it, and you need even more acid,
but I hope you all already knew this :)
[ September 22, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: FarbrorBosse ]
THe_rEaL_dEaL October 26th, 2005, 02:38 AM

when my friend makes this stuff he always cuts it 10% with bicarb after the neutralisations and drying. This is just to be extra
carefull as occaisionally small slightly hard chunks of AP remains after washing which may be hiding acid.
Also if this AP goes off near you, then if you dont loose bodyparts, your likely to get some chronic hearing dammage,
especially if this stuff was to be transported in a backpack to the det site, being close proximity to your ears.
Wear earplugs with a beanie or hooded jacket to conceal them and this may decrease the hearing loss. It will in no way
completely stop it.
me234 October 27th, 2005, 01:59 AM

rEaL_dEaL: How much power does your friend's 'cut' AP lose compared to 'straight' AP?
Have you guys done any tests?
I'd be interested in the results.
THe_rEaL_dEaL October 29th, 2005, 03:24 AM

Good Question. Subjectively, by visual analysis, I would say it is slightly less powerfull. A new batch is ready for drying so i'll
get back to you on the tests.
What test methods would you sugest?
nbk2000 October 31st, 2005, 06:23 PM

How about NOT carrying the primary on your back, next to your vital organs?
Carry it in a hand bag (not a purse! :p) so that, if it did go of, it's by your leg, not your head.
Explosive force decreases by distance according to the inverse square law. If 1'=1, then 2'=-1/4, 3'=1/9, 4'=1/16.
So, by carrying it by your leg instead of on your back, you decrease explosive force effect to your ears by at least 1/9th of
what it would otherwise be. :)
me234 November 1st, 2005, 12:35 AM

I was thinking something simple, maybe a couple Al plate tests.
Maybe try a displaced sand test as a measure of power rather than briscance (we are talking primaries here after all).
Have you tried any sensitivity comparisons?
The biggest appeal I can see is potentially decreased impact sensitivity.
xyz November 3rd, 2005, 07:38 AM

I seem to recall reading that basic AP was almost as dangerous as acidic AP and that conditions were best kept neutral.
In any case, I wash my AP once in bicarb solution to neutralise remaining HCl and then 3 times with water to remove as much
excess bicarb as I can.
NoltaiR November 15th, 2005, 04:20 PM

Although I cannot reply based on experience, the text I have always read has said NEVER leave AP in an acidic state.
Personally it has been years since I have made a fresh batch of acetone peroxide and I always neutralized it with water
several times. I never used bicarb solution like everyone talks about and yet I never had a problem. But why would you even
talk like it would be ok to leave acid in your finished product.
"Cleaned" AP is much safer and also a lot more logical.. I recall a very long time ago when someone here took pictures of an
accident they had where some AP detonated on its own due to acid.. was its Alengoso.... I don't remember his name.
Anyways for anyone who doesn't remember me brag about the power of mixing AP with elmers rubber cement should possibly
give it a try.. its very safe.. you don't really have to worry about it being so friction and impact sensitive and it is slightly
moldable.. not to mention that it detonates very, very well even unconfined.
THe_rEaL_dEaL December 7th, 2005, 03:51 AM

How about NOT carrying the primary on your back, next to your vital organs?
NBK 2000:
I may have confused you and others. I do not carry charges on my back. I usually walk with the bag held away from my body
and organs with outstretched arm. The backpack is purely for concealment and the charges are usually rolled up in the center
of a towel.
What is your preferred method for transporting primaries and other sensitive charges? Do you use any form of container that
could possibly absorb or dissipate a misfire? This isn't on topic but I feel its very useful in respect to sensitive primaries like
AP and HMTD.
me234: Thanks for that testing info. I have not done any sensitivity tests as yet but that would be a good idea.
xyz:
I have to say Ive never heard of AP being sensitive to alkaline conditions and have never had any problems with the mix but I
will look into this. Where did you hear this?
Cato December 9th, 2005, 07:12 PM

I have been reading up on the London attacks and a number of news report say that the bad guys used AP or HMTD and
pepper or flour; saw another report that said the bad buys in Jordan last year were going to use H2O2 and cumin.
I saw a recipe once for H2O2 and ground coffee - any one seen recipes for peroxide based HME and cumin, pepper flour - or is
this just another media beat up.
I search this forum and could not find any refs. that answer question and a www search did not turn up any recipes.
twotonetony95 February 15th, 2006, 05:51 PM

Just get a large hard-sided cooler and put a smaller soft cooler inside it and pack with ice, and that will keep it extra cold and
the ice won't melt as quick. You could also put rock-salt onto the ice to lower the temperature of it.
TreverSlyFox March 23rd, 2006, 12:56 AM

"...a number of news report say that the bad guys used AP or HMTD and pepper or flour..."
Never heard of using pepper, flour yes, but as a "Dust Bomb" explosive. 10 Lbs of flour in a cardboard box sitting on top of an
explosive. Inside a large closed room or building it's a devestating explosion. In the Military we got to see a "Dust Bomb" in
action in an Improvised Explosive class back in the 60's and it was quite a sight. But the class was on how to "extend" a
limited amount of explosives and the "Dust Bomb" was strictly for an enclosed permanent structure.
I guess it could be used in a train car or buss but it would be a big package and you'ed have to keep it up-right from my
understanding of it. I'm not sure how you'ed place it in a train or buss as it's more for a large open space to get the right
dust-to-air mixture. I guess it could be "Down Sized" to fit the space in a train or buss, but I'd be more tempted to use an
explosive and jellied gasoline in such a small space.

Abbreviate "gram" as G and "grain" as Gr.
A grain is .002285 oz or .0648g
I realize that I'm risking getting the boot, being new and all, but just as grammatical errors foster unpleasant results or worse,
so do misinterpreting symbols used to represent weights and measurements.
Again, sorry so far off topic.
Chopper June 17th, 2006, 01:51 AM

The answer to the question of "Which is better? AP or HMTD?" Has different answers, depending on which way you approach it.
(1) Cost
If for example, you were more concerned about the cost per gram of finished product, then AP is the better choice - provided
long storage times are not going to be used. In which case the AP sublimes and you may lose more than you use.
(2) Initiating ability

If on the other hand, one is more concerned about the initiating ability of the compound then it is HMTD that wins the day,
hands down. On account of the hotter detonation reaction, combined with the higher gas output. Additionally, it is the finer-
grained of the two and is therefore somewhat safer to compress. Military studies have found that "it is not dead-pressed by
loading pressures of 11,000 PSI" (pg 468(?) copae)
(3) Concealability
Next of course, is the question of concealability. With such a high rate of sublimation, AP is going to be much easier to detect
in anything other than a totally sealled container. If efforts were made to plasticize it with PiB, which is impermeable to gas,
then one would find that the plastique mass would expand in volume and become spongy.
For the question of concealability, HMTD comes out the clear winner. Pib plastisized HMTD does not expand or become spongy.
It releases no gasses to be detected - much like C4, which is actually required to have vapour releasing taggants added for
detectability at airports. Hence the shoe bomber's use of HMTD and PETN. Excellent power combined with low detectability -
silly fucker just screwed up when he got caught lighting the thing. :rolleyes:
4) Ease of Precursor Procurement/Manufacture

This is a question that is no doubt going to vary depending on one's location on the planet. For the most part, where I live it is
far and away _much_ easier to obtain the chems needed for AP, as this involves just a trip to a hardware store and a
hydroponics store. Acetone, HCL @ hardware + H2O2 @ Hydroponics. HMTD on the other hand requires trips to the
Supermarket(citric acid), the Army surplus store (Hexamine) and finally the Hydroponics store(again, for the H2O2)
While never having visited, one can only conclude that the same is true in Palestine (with possible influence of Pt #1), where
the crazy bastards have been known to be raided with up to 800kg of AP sitting in the garage :eek:
AP is also known to be much more forgiving of the conditions in which it is made. Whilst also being a strongly exothermic
reaction, it is not nearly as fierce as that of it's sister. Even if one does get a little over-enthusiastic and add the catalyst far
too fast and produce boiling of the reaction mix, this is not the end of the batch, as would be the case with HMTD.
Producing 50g of AP in an hour is no big deal, nor is drying it in a further 1/2 to 1 hour. So long as the mixture is cooled
sufficiently, an excess of the calculated 98% H2SO4 (1.25-1.5 times excess) may first be diluted to ~50%, before being
added practically in one go - i.e 2-3 seconds for enough acid to form 50gms AP.
If one is infact a little over enthusiastic with the addition of (too-strong) acid or a little cheap on the cooling side of things,
Dimer and Trimer AP have an interesting property that makes their separation trivial. The density. Trimer will sink to the
bottom of the reaction vessel, whilst Dimer will float. Simple as that.
HMTD on the other hand can be somewhat of a mother-fucker to make in a hurry. An entirely different reaction mechanism
mean that the acid is not acting merely as a catalyst anymore and thus participates in the reaction itself. The reaction is
substantially more exothermic than that of AP. Good cooling is imperative, rather than just beneficiall to formation of the
desired isomer.
Also, due to the substantially larger quantity of acid needed, if one was to dilute this down to facilitate quicker addition, the
time needed to complete the reaction is not changed much, but the yield suffers horribly.
Alternately, if the acid is added too quickly, the reaction mix may develop heat fast enough and sufficient to break (non-
pyrex) glass beakers standing in iced water and to melt plastic into a whithering mess. Not to mention the _nasty_ fumes that
are emmitted from the now-ruined reaction mix.
Oh well, back to the freezer I guess. ;)

[QUOTE=Cobalt.45]Abbreviate "gram" as G and "grain" as Gr.
After posting this gem, I saw that it's WRONG!
gram= g grain= gr
++++
Actually, either way is correct. Some journals capitalize, others don't.
NBK
Cobalt.45 June 21st, 2006, 04:05 PM

[QUOTE=Cobalt.45]Abbreviate "gram" as G and "grain" as Gr.
After posting this gem, I saw that it's WRONG!
gram= g grain= gr
++++
Actually, either way is correct. Some journals capitalize, others don't.
NBK
"G" doesn't represent gram. Check on the US Metric Association's website. There's some good info there...
nbk2000 June 22nd, 2006, 06:32 AM

Try reading 50 or 100 year old chemical journals and see how common "G" for gram is. :)
We must not only look towards the future, but also remember the past.
Seeing 'Clew' in an old mystery book, would you assume a typo?
Did you know that 'Clue' was spelt 'Clew' until at least the 1930's?
You must know the obsolescent spellings and syntax, as well as modern, if you are to have a complete grasp of the subject.
Cobalt.45 June 22nd, 2006, 10:15 AM

Duly noted. For the here and now, my personal preference is to follow currently used symbols. What's not acceptable, is using
gr or Gr for gram. gr is grain. g is gram.
nbk2000 June 23rd, 2006, 11:37 AM

Yes, I've seen numerous instances of gr. being used as an abbreviation for 'gram'. Usually you can tell by context what the
meaning is, but it shows sloppiness on the writers part.
Cobalt.45 June 24th, 2006, 01:25 AM

Try reading 50 or 100 year old chemical journals and see how common "G" for gram is. :)
You must know the obsolescent spellings and syntax, as well as modern, if you are to have a complete grasp of the subject.
nbk, you peaked my curiosity with this, so I did a quick search for "classic chemistry", "archaic chemistry terminology and such
like.
What do you get from the combining of "brimstone", "carbone" and "nitre"? Too easy. What about "spirit pyroacetic", "spirit of
salt" and H2O2? What would happen if you combined "dephlogisticated air of Dr. Priestley" with "petrolatum"?
Too bad this is so far off topic. Kinda fun to see what all could be thought up along these lines...
deadman June 27th, 2006, 06:37 AM

Well these are all out of memory so lets see how I do.
brimstone, carbone and nitre are obviously sulfur, carbon, and potassium nitrate, spirit pyroacetic is very close to the modern
also known as acetone
spirit of salts being HCl
H2O2... what do you mean isn't that what it has always been
In Chemistry we watched a video on dephlogisticated air and showing how mice living in it lived longer and what not. It's
oxygen
I'd sound like a fool if this one is wrong but petrolatum=vaseline; it says it on some bottles. If they were to be mixed nothing
would happen. Just contact of chemicals doesn't start a reaction. You'd have petroleum jelly in an oxygen rich atmosphere.

Try greasing the O-rings in an Oxygen system with "petrolatum" instead of the Oxygen rated silicone grease and see what
happens...
How about "Oil of mirbain"? "Phillosopher's wool"?
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 10:01 PM

Archaic chemistry names were so much more fun than the modern names we have.
Oil of Mirbane = Nitrobenzene (remember this from Black Book Vol1)
Philosphers Wool = Asbestos? (search reveals not)
The_Duke June 27th, 2006, 10:35 PM

Philosopher's wool is Zinc Oxide, I'm sure of this.
I agree, the archaic names of the alchemists' time are much more fun!
Oil of Vitriol, more commonly known as Sulfuric acid is one I have always liked.
nbk2000 June 27th, 2006, 11:48 PM

Lunar Caustic = Silver Nitrate is my favorite.
K9 June 28th, 2006, 12:14 AM

Here are some good ones - http://www.zompist.com/chemical.htm
You have to love "dephlogisticated air". And I personally am partial to "the green lion".
Some other interesting sites are:

http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/bl021104a.htm
http://www.chemsoc.org/viselements/pages/alchemist/alchemy.html

Good catch, Bert. Hell of a memory, deadman!
Here's an LE that might, quite literally, blow yer ass off: Moisture Resistant Black Powder Substitute, or "MRBPS".
It's constituents are KNO3 as the primary oxidizer, KCLO4 as the secondary oxidizer, phenolphthalein as the reducer (instead
of charcoal), and ethyl cellulose used as a "process aid and binder".
Produces 798 kcal/g as opposed to 810 for BP.
Hint- check out the "fuel"...

Heh, If only the Palestinians would follow that advice. According to Time magazine dozens and dozens of Palestinians have
died making AP for the suicide belts.
This is probably the worst first post I could do but I got a kick out of reading that. Seeing as they die anyway.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > washing ap
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View Full Version : washing ap
hairyjoe August 12th, 2001, 04:29 AM

i dont readily have access to ether for washing m y ap, and i was wondering if anyone knew of anything else that i could wash it
in that would clean it.
DarkAngel August 12th, 2001, 07:26 AM

Ethe r?
That would disolve yo ur ap,water would be good but water + bica rbonate solution would even be better.
Also how do you guys filter your AP?

In m y dream s i used to filter it with som e
t-shirt around a beaker with a string on it to hold the filter on it's place.
And pour water on it till the beaker whas full an d than carefully poured of the liqued and p our new water in it till i thought the
AP whas clean.
But now i fou nd out that if you cut the top + bottom of a coke bottle off
(so you have a big cillinder)
Attach the filter at one end pu tt som e string on it and place this in your sink and you have a handy filtering system .
------------------
arkAngel

s e n d t o s e c t i o n 1 @ h o t m ail.com
Demolition August 12th, 2001, 08:15 AM

I always use a coffee filter to filter m y AP.I just pour it in,let the water run out,wash with som e bi-carb soda and water and th e n
split along the join and put it on a bun ch tissues.The tissues absorb the m oisture and by the next day it is dry.
------------------
Yeah,what up Detroit
D e m olition
Eric August 12th, 2001, 01:56 PM

I've always felt that with how fast a tsh irt filters the solution that it m ight be m issing quite a bit of AP. C o f f e e f i l t e r s m a y b e b e
alot slower but at least you know you collected it all. In m y dream s I filte r AP using two coffee filters to m ake sure one won't
rip.
hairyjoe August 12th, 2001, 11:27 PM

ok, i just tried m aking some ap today, and it didnt work at all. it never form ed crystals. i used 100% acetone, 50m L; 3%
H 2 O 2, 300mL; and Rooto brand industrial strength drain cleaner (conc. h2so4). is it possible that the acid corrupted the
e x p e r i m ent (i tried 2 times w no results)becaue the acid was im pure? it was kinda m urky brown in the container.

the way you said that it sound s like you didn't leave it to stand in the fridge a few days to allow crystilisation. did you?

No, i didnt leave it in the fridge. i after adding the acid, i kept it in the icebath at 5 Celsius for about 1.5 hrs, then took it out
and there wa s nothing. Should i leave it cooled for a few days? and what tem p is so. also, i can buy muriatic acid at a local p ool
place, it look s to be straight HCl and water. does anyone know the conc. these things typically are, and if theyre pure?
EventHorizon August 13th, 2001, 07:21 PM

W hat was you're procedure? You have to add the chem icals in the correct order IIR C.

there is no correct order, you can add anything to anything and still get it right. Hairyjoe, with those amounts and
concentrations you will have to wait about a day to see crystals.
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

Jesus! you letf it for 1.5 hours??? With such low conc H2 O2 it is not uncom mon to not see any crystals for 2 4 hours!
W hen all the synthesises say "leave for 2-3 days for the crytsals to precipitate" didn't you think that they say 2-3days for a
reason???

so i have to leave it in for a while eh? the directions said 1 to 3 hrs, but that was for 30% H2O 2, so I guess i wasnt thinking.
but i'll try it again and wait a while. would the fact that i'm using 3% H2O2 explain why the re was no increase in heat
whatsoever when i added the H2SO 4, because the reaction proceeded so slowly? and when i leave the solution sittin g for the
crystals to form , do i have to keep it at 5C in the ice bath or can i put it in m y fridge.
CragHack August 14th, 2001, 12:27 AM

either will work. just m a k e s u r e t o p u t m ore ice in the bath to ke ep it coo l as the ice m elts, if you should ch oose this route.
------------------
"If you m ust, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

is it possible that getting your acetone/H2O 2 solution TO O cold will ham per your results?

i don't think it will ham per results. unless you drop the temperature to -50 or som ething...2-5*C should be fine.if its applied
during the re action th e reactio n will be slower but will work out fine.
the reason the solution has to be kept cool for a couple of days is to lower the so lubility of AP in any rem aining acetone.
therefore allowing crystilisation to occur.
[This message has been edited by kin gspaz (edited August 16, 2001).]
Tristin August 23rd, 2001, 11:56 AM

I found that when I wash my AP in baking soda/water that it foam s up allot and there is a
good amount of surface tension on the water!, and it takes a long time for it to settle to the
bottom , I u s e d a s m all dab or drop of dishwashing liquid in the baking soda/water and it
broke the surface ten sion and the ap settled faster to the bottom of the cleansing vessel.
A_W April 9th, 2002, 01:16 PM

I wonder about something. I have never made AP or HMTD, but I know that they are made with acid. I have neutralised
nitrocellulose with bicarbonate, and it foam e d a l o t . W o u ldn`t som e of the explosive mix with the foam and spread all over the
place? Would`t this be extrem ely dangerous?? ...O r does it not produce any foam a t a l l ? A s I a m a b o u t t o s t a r t m a k i n g H M T D
soon I want to know what happens.

Y o u k e e p a n y f o a m contained within the beake r, either by using a beaker with sufficient spare volume to accomodate all the
f o a m i n g , o r b y a d d i n g t h e H M T D / A P t o the neutralising solution at a rate which keeps the foam ing under control.
I t d o e s n ' t f o a m m uch in m y experience, but it depends how m uch acid you used in your procedure.

Leaving it for 1-3 hours sin't enaugh even with 30% H2O2 I use 35% and it takes between 4 and 5 hours for it to complete.

I use a coffee filter, and I wash it with bicarb solution, than wash it with water several times, then one final tim e with isopropol
alcohol. The alcohol cuts down on drying tim e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > electric spark ignition comps?
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View Full Version : electric spark ignition comps?
A-BOMB October 23rd, 2001, 07:35 PM

I was wondering is there any comps that ignite reliably from a spark from say a grill igniter or taser, induction coil, photo flash gun? Or any explosive for that matter?
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
Anthony October 23rd, 2001, 08:15 PM

Flash containg metallic fuel (Al, Mg etc) should work well. Although you need something very sensitive to reliably ignite from such a low current as grill ignitor, possibly the
stungun too and coil too.
Acetone Peroxide is sensitive to a 100Kv stungun, all the LE comps I tried weren't.
The photoflash cap will almost certainly set offanything flame/heat/spark sensitive. If you use conductive flash then the low voltage of the flash cap isn't a problem (no need
for a spark gap).
------------------
"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet." -
George W Bush - Arlington Heights, Ill., Oct. 24, 2000
kingspaz October 24th, 2001, 05:16 PM

could the addition of iron powder to the comp raise its sensitivity due to heat produced as its not a great conductor...or would the power be high enough from a grill ignitor?
BoB- October 24th, 2001, 06:29 PM

If you manage to string a tiny steel wool filament between the 2 contacts it might work. Not to shoot you down, but a AA battery is cheaper than a big peizoid.
A-BOMB October 24th, 2001, 10:18 PM

I think I might try this mix and see if it works 1 part Mg,2 parts Al, 3 parts kmo4, 2 parts powders steel wool. Does that sound like it would work?
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

Id just try 70/30 with the magnesium and forget the other stuff.
nbk2000 October 25th, 2001, 02:02 AM

Too much fuel, not enough oxidizer. POIT! Won't work.
------------------

What's kmo4?
------------------
A-BOMB October 25th, 2001, 10:52 AM

I meant kmno4 (potassium pernerganate)sp?
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
SawedOff8gaugeman October 28th, 2001, 09:31 AM

I guess it's permanganate ?

well if we're going to get specific the correct (modern) name is Potassium manganate(VII) but i believe potassium permangante is the name used in industry to help avoid
mistakes over the phone and things.
Agent Blak October 29th, 2001, 06:01 PM

What about the addition of powdered flint. You can care full powder the flint from a Mg firestarter. You just knock it out with an Awl and hammer. clamp it in a vice get a fine
cut file. file some then remove, file, remove, file, remove.
------------------
"I Always Have A Spade Or Two Handy"
the freshmaker October 30th, 2001, 10:11 AM

kingspaz: Potassium-manganate and Potassium-permangante is two different compounds! Like Sodium-oxide and Sodium-peroxide!
------------------

I just thought of it why don't I just get some old photo flash bulbs and break the glass on them take out the filement and gind it up and mix it with some other flash, then
Presto, Changeo, instant eletric flash comp! TA DA!
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
Snipie October 30th, 2001, 05:04 PM

For my electrical igniters I use Christmas tree bulbs, they have a perfect shape, just make a little scratch right under the top (the bulbs I use have a little glass ball on
top) and than break the top off, fill it with some flash powder and close the top with candle wax. A perfect water resistant igniter. Before you make one, strip the wires
and twist them, thats to avoid pre ignitions from static electricity. The great thing is that these things can be set off from just one battery (1.5 V).

Graphite is conductive, and offers a fair bit of resistance under current, a small amount of a strong oxidiser, and finely ground pencil lead will ignite under sufficient current/
amps.
Peizoid's dont give any amps!
------------------
It lets you blame someone else.

BOB have you seen the video clip of my pizeroid as you call it on Ctrl_c's FPT yet if not go and watch it, and tell me if you think it has anoth amps.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

how could he tell if it has a high enough amperage?!

Well I don't know how he would tell put in the part that the spark is 11/2 inches wide and it has enothe volts/amps/watts/whatever to kill a mouse i caught within 5 seconds,
so I think it has enothe amps or volts or whatever.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

What you just described is not a piezeo electric sparker. A pizeo sparker can make a spark about 3/4 of an inch at 15,000 volts and some amps at like .002. I doubt it can kill a
moth, much less a mouse. And I wouldnt like to find out either. Torturing animals is sick.
A-BOMB October 31st, 2001, 12:14 PM

I was going smash him with a hammer any way teach them mices not to come into my house and live! And what I have made is a induction coil aka tazer.
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb
Anthony October 31st, 2001, 04:42 PM

A coil of any kind if a whole different kettle of fish to a piezo-electric crytsal, which emits a high voltage, low current electrical charge when squeezed.
It'd work if you had a large enough crystal and a sensitive enough explosive/composition. Afterall, the military apparently use them to set of the detonators for shaped charged
warheads.
------------------
"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
...George W. Bush, Jr.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Baquacil
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View Full Version : Baquacil
glock March 22nd, 2002, 06:36 PM

Hi,
I'm looking to see if anyone can tell me the exact product name of the Baquacil that contains the 27% hydrogen peroxide. I looked on their website and they had no
information about the hydrogen peroxide content, and they have several products such as sanitizer, shock and oxidizer, and algicide. I tried a search on the forum but all I
found was that the baquacil spa type is only 7% so thats no good. Also, does anyone know how much a gallon of the 27% Baquacil costs?
Thanks,
~glock
0EZ0 March 22nd, 2002, 07:09 PM

Baquacil is not the best source for H2O2. If you live where i live then it will cost you up to $150 for a very small amount like 5 litres <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" /> . Shop around. Visit some pool stores and see what they have. I have found numerous stores selling up to 60% H2O2. The first place i went to had 15 Litre
drums of 15% H2O2 for $50!
Run a search for the topic "7 litres of 60% H2O2". It has some usefull information.
RTC March 22nd, 2002, 08:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Exact product name<hr
/></blockquote>Erm.. "Baquacil" MAYBE?!
Chemist's sell h2o2, it's used as many things, from a mouthwash, to a deoderant, to hair bleach, to clothes bleach.
You'll be hard pressed NOT to find a source of it.

Name one mouthwash that contains 30% H2O2...
RTC March 23rd, 2002, 02:17 PM

Not 30%, but 3%. If you buy some Hydrogen Peroxide from the chemist, look on the back of the label and it says: "Can be used as either a deoderant or a mouthwash"

it definately does. but it also says to dilute it!
glock March 23rd, 2002, 06:23 PM

Well guys, I went to the local pool supply store today and they didn't have any Baquacil brand products, but I was able to find some BioGuard brand 27.5% peroxide for 14$ a
gallon. Heres some pics...
Bottle:
<img src="http://www.magicalcheese.com/uploads/peroxide3.jpg" alt="" />
Front Label:
Back Label:
By the way, <a href="http://www.magicalcheese.com/upload/fileman.cgi" target="_blank">http://www.magicalcheese.com/upload/fileman.cgi</a> has an anonymous

image dump, you don't need a user account or anything, no quotas, and its pretty fast :)
nbk2000 March 23rd, 2002, 06:29 PM

I noticed on the closeup of the label that it contains "surface active agents" AKA detergents. I don't know if this would be hazardous when making AP.
Someone who's had baquacil should see if the label says it has detergents or not. If it doesn't, you should make the extra effort to get that instead. After all, you only have ten
fingers to lose, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Mick March 23rd, 2002, 08:38 PM

it would have been a good idea to search the forum first.
<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000345" target="_blank">7 litres of 60% h2o2</a>
infact, you didn't even need to search for it, its on the first page about 20 topic down from the top.

Get a generic brand of BaquaShock, not Baquacil; I beleive that they are two differnet chemicals. I found one called PolyShock which was 27% H2O2 without any detergents or
stabilizers.
xoo1246 March 24th, 2002, 01:42 PM

Our paint-stores sell 17.5% H202 somewhat cheap, obvioulsy yours don't. It's technical grade and seems to perform better than my medical grade 35%(faster reaction).
glock March 28th, 2002, 06:39 PM

I had a dream about a batch of AP using the BioGuard 24 hours ago with 165ml acetone, 100ml 27.5% h2o2, and 25ml 30% HCl. So far the results seem pretty good. I
uploaded a pic called ap_24hours.jpg into the forum ftp in the -=Uploads=- directory. The ap crystals are pretty big and fluffy, I'm pretty sure its trimer. I'd appreciate any
feedback.
Thanks.
Ctrl_C March 28th, 2002, 08:50 PM

Baquacil's full name is "Chlorine-free Baquacil Shock and Oxidizer."
I think it cost me $12-15 for a gallon.
<img src="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/baquacil.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="ftp://ewf:df447jh4@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/baquacil.jpg" target="_blank">Baquacil</a>
nbk2000 March 29th, 2002, 10:41 AM

Glock, it seems that image dump only holds pictures for a few days before clearing them out.
glock March 29th, 2002, 02:41 PM

Ya I noticed the links weren't showing up :( I guess they randomly clean out the pics in the main directory. You can also create other directories though, and they havn't wiped
out my directory yet. I'll have to experiment with their service some more.
Cricket April 3rd, 2002, 02:42 AM

Hi all. I was looking for a closer store a while ago and noticed that they have some kind of new Baquacil stuff. Baquacil Ultra <a href="http://www.baquacilultra.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.baquacilultra.com/</a> is the name of it and it was somewhat implied in their website that it is pretty much the same as the regular Baquacil
that we have came to know and love, but more "robust" and so I think and hope there is more % of H2O2 in there then regular. I might be needing some later this week, but
I don't know if I can buy it (just waisted $50 on N2O in the last two days and am all out now). Anyway, maybe someone can check this out or has already. Let me know if you
would, and if this has been mentioned already, sorry.
[ April 03, 2002, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Cricket ]
vulture April 3rd, 2002, 04:49 AM

taken from the website:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Note: BAQUACIL ULTRA SHOCK
AND OXIDIZER is a strong oxidizer. The BAQUACIL ULTRA SHOCK AND OXIDIZER container has a vented cap<hr /></blockquote>Vented cap means peroxide concentration above 50%..... :D
more:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ....This could start a fire if it
touches combustible materials...<hr /></blockquote>Now this is the good news, only hydrogen peroxide of 60% and
more can ignite combustible material! Go get this stuff!
[ April 03, 2002, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]
Arkangel April 3rd, 2002, 09:28 AM

Unless I am a complete dullard, Baquacil is not a brand name in the uk, I've spent a while looking this morning. Does anyone know of a similar product here?
RTC April 3rd, 2002, 11:23 AM

I emailed the company sometime asking them if they stocked the product in the UK, the reply (which came pretty quickly surprisingly) was YES!
I forget WHERE they stock it :rolleyes: but if you email them again, i'm sure they'll be pretty pleased to tell you where you can get at it.
Arkangel April 3rd, 2002, 02:34 PM

Hmmmm, tried that and they don't supply the "ultra" to the UK, just the regular stuff. Anyone heard of a brand name for 60% in the uk?
(Trouble is, there are so few pools here, just the commercial ones as we're too poor and it's too fucking cold eh?)
RTC April 3rd, 2002, 03:27 PM

There's plenty of places to get 60vol ho from, I myself have a liter of it for around 8. And the place I got it from has nothing to do with pools.
You just have to use your noodle and search :)
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 03:55 PM

Ah, but volume and percentage are totally different beasts.
For instance, I have 40 volume peroxide, but that's 12% actual H2O2.
So 60% would be about 180 volume. BIG difference.
Also, I have a file called "chem.pdf" on the FTP (1.51Mb) that has several useful chemical processes. One of these is making anhydrous crystalline(!) H2O2 from the high
percentage H2O2 (60% or higher).
A mix of acetone/H202 (70% or higher) is a liquid high explosive itself. Not like AP, but more like NG.

60% is 200 volumes.
Actually it's easy to calculate, if the water content = 100 vol then the peroxide content has to be 200 vol in order to attain 60%.
Hmm, according to my chemistry encyclopedia 90% peroxide can't be detonated but catalytic decomposition can be explosive... hmmm... bit confusing... :confused:

I'm going to ask a simple newbie type question now, and I'm a little embarrassed about it, but isn't it possible to boil off the water in 3%/30% H2O2 like you would to get
fuming sulphuric acid?

There's a thread going on about it: <a href="http://www.roguesci.org/cgi-bin/ewforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000324" target="_blank">concentrating H2O2</
a>
Can't believe you missed, right under this one....
Second, you can't make fuming sulfuric acid by heating it. Max is 98% -> azeotrope.
Not a good impression you made there.... :rolleyes:

Ouch, what a plank, just thought I'd take the opportunity while people were talking about the stuff. Opportunism is not always a good idea - sorry!
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 05:51 PM

The pure peroxide itself may not be explosive, but once you add a fuel, and an explosive shock...decomposition + ignition + combustion = BOOM!
:D
glock April 3rd, 2002, 06:40 PM

Has anyone actually tried detonating a concentrated h2o2 and acetone mixture yet?
Hmm...

That better be extremely pure acetone, because dust particles already can cause violent H2O2 decomposition. Result -> Hot powerful stream of singular oxygen, O2 and O3
evolving from the H2O2 while you're adding acetone... not good.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Cricket April 9th, 2002, 06:07 PM

Hmmm, looks like I may have found something worth while. I am wanting to do this now and hopefully I am planning on getting a small lab and pyrotechincal workplace set
up whthin the year hopefully. It will be a while, but in the end I will be happy. So anyway, I didn't get to buy any Ultra Baquacil, I spent all my money on stupid AN and other
various LE addatives trying to make a rocket. I failed miserably :mad: . I tried Ammonpulver and other simular compositions and nothing would burn except KNO3 and sugar
(not that good even) and so I guess my AN was no good (too much moisture I guess). Anyway, back to the topic, I haven't got to try it and I won't be able to for a while.
Maybe someone else can have the honors. I have to go. Good luck.
[ April 09, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]
Donald August 8th, 2006, 07:42 PM

I realize this thread is 6 years old, but I wanted to point something out for those of you who purchase Baquacil Ultra in search of higher H2O2 concentrations.
The Ultra does not have a higher H2O2 content. I repeat does not.
It actually has an added fungicide, and same amount of peroxide as standard Baquacil.
Just wanted to stop anyone who is buying it thinking it has 60% concentration due to the vented cap discussed.

I haven't seen Baquacil in my area in a long time, I've been having some real trouble trying to find other good pool chemicals as well. Is the Shock and Oxidizer still commonly
available as it used to be? I have heard some people on this forum say that they can buy higher concentration H2O2 (60-65%) from garden centers and hydroponics supply
companies, this highly concentrated form should not be used directly for producing explosive peroxides, but can be diluted before use. I'm reminded of "Aurol" from Rudolf
Meyer's Explosives 5th Edition which was a mixture of 80-86% H2O2 and something else not sure what.
This and Perhydrol which I believe are used in submarines for launching torpedos.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > pressure question....
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View Full Version : pressure question....
stanfield October 24th, 2001, 07:16 AM

The mixture in the blasting cap (I will use DDNP) has to be pressed in the blasting cap in order to be efficient... is it a dangerous step ? What are the safety equipement and
procedure to use ?
thanx...
SATANIC October 24th, 2001, 09:09 AM

most people either don't compress it, or use a shield of some sort. i don't know about your primary in particular, (i've never tried it) but you could use a setup of sand bags
around the cap, face shield (full face) and maybe welding gloves. you are right in that it is a dangerous procedure. so take care, like using non sparkig tools etc... but i'm sure
you alredy know th basics.
a couple of good texts would be NBK's pdf, or KIBC, which both deal with this.
Microtek October 24th, 2001, 12:45 PM

This step is indeed a little dangerous ( though DDNP is not so bad; the peroxides are much worse ) but once it is done, the caps will be much safer. Not to mention that they
are much better initiators. It's worth it.
CragHack October 24th, 2001, 01:40 PM

Make sure to invest in a pair of kevlar gloves also. Make sure the shield you use will stand up to a direct explosion of the blasting cap, and that it won't splinter in the process.
------------------
stanfield October 24th, 2001, 03:27 PM

thanx !
I love the idea with sand bags around the det. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
stanfield October 25th, 2001, 12:35 PM

Microtek, you said "This step is indeed a little dangerous but once it is done, the caps will be much safer"
==> Why the cap will be safer when pressed ?
thanx !
Hex October 25th, 2001, 03:00 PM

I really wouldn't advise pressing any primary by hand. 3 or 4 bits of wood for a press have got to be worth obtaining, then you only have to handle when you're filling it and
when it's done. The whole pressing part is far better done when you're 2 feet away on the end of a length of 2x4 behind a shield.
I guess compressed caps are safer as the powder inside isn't rattling around when you move. Definitely not a good thing for peroxides.

Even without a shield being a couple of feet away means getting a bit cut up rather than loosing fingers. A shield is definitely a good idea as it can reduce the risk of even
minor injury to near zero.
I use a wooden lever press, it wouldn;t press BP rocket motors but it's plenty enough for blasting caps.
Pressed could also be safer as for any given task they contain less explosive than an unpressed cap would need.
------------------
"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
...Governor George W. Bush, Jr.
EP October 25th, 2001, 10:29 PM

An idea I had to make pressing safter is this:
Drill a hole in a solid block of wood that the cap can slid into. That way if it does accidentally detonate, it would offer some protection. Obviously it would need to be a pretty
good size chunk of wood, but with only small amounts of primary it should work. Does anyone see any problems with this?

It would use a lot of the energy but its still pretty potent. I'll get a friend to make a 1g HMTD cap and put it in a 8-10" log and detonate it. It usually splits the log in several
pieces throwing them a few feet. I'll get a video of 'his' experiment. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
EP October 26th, 2001, 06:50 PM

Perhaps a concrete block should be used then...
edit: looking forward to seeing your friends videohttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by EP (edited October 26, 2001).]

You could run the risk of greater inury during an accidental detonation if you try to encase the cap, by giving it shrapnel to throw at you.
------------------
"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
...Governor George W. Bush, Jr.
nbk2000 October 27th, 2001, 09:59 PM
One should never handle detonators by hand unless absolutely neccesary. Kitchen tongs or pliers should be used to keep your hands away from the blast radius of the
detonator, which is only an inch or two.
Leather gloves are good idea too.
Sure, you're hands will get cut up if the detonator explodes, but the flesh won't be blown off ala Saxon because of the blast.
I'd suggest making a cap holder by wax coating a dowel slightly larger than your detonator and placing it in the center of a large steel pipe.
The space is filled with pumice granules and then filled with bondo car repair epoxy.
The dowel is then removed.
In use, the detonator is placed in the hole, and a cap threaded on. A hole in the cap allows for the press dowel to do its thing.
If the detonator explodes, the pumice absorbs the blast, the pipe retains the fragments. The pipe would be 2" or larger in size.
------------------
simply RED December 7th, 2001, 02:41 PM

I have made more than 40 detonators with AP and HMTD and I've pressed all of them without using protective tools, i just pressed the TCAP with a pencil.
Knowing that this is not the best you can do i will advise you to be careful...
------------------
LIFE SUCKS... DON'T LET IT BITE!!!
a_bab December 7th, 2001, 04:25 PM

Hey, this sound risky for me. I *also* used a pencil to press the AP in detonators. I made severals crackers containing up to 50 grams of AP, by presing AP with soft hammer
hits in strong carbord tubes, using a wood dowel. Perhaps that was the maximum risk I achieved, but I'm not proud of this at all. I'm only feeling VERY lucky. I remember that
Simply Red was extremly astonished of my accidents, because 'he never had an accident, even he is in the field from several years'. Than the NG accident came up... In this
field, there WILL be an accident at one time. And the bad thing is that it could be the only and the last one...
I'm worried when I realizing that most of my previous accidents were caused by primers. But now I'm playing with increasingly charges, over 1 kilo, wich are able to make me
meat paste and I guess that I'm not the only one in this situation. But hey, it's very cool.
The blasting caps making is the most dangerous point from our game. So the efforts to make this safer are never enough.
------------------
[This message has been edited by a_bab (edited 12-07-2001).]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > T o o m uch catalyst?
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View Full Version : Too much catalyst?
Rat Bastard April 7th, 2002, 05:29 AM

I m ade AP once before, It worked great and I used this form ula:
5 0 m l acetone
1 5 0 m l 6% H202
3 m l H2S04
S o m e o n e s a i d t o u s e m ore Catalyst, so in m y next batch I just m ade, I used 12ml H2S04 but it got really cloudy. Is this
normal? or did I use too m uch?
P.S: the H2S04 I use is drain cleaner and it is has the color of syrup.

It got cloudy because lots of AP was fo rm ing quickly when the ca talyst wa s added, thus resulting in a mist of AP in the solution.
This happens when you add the catalyst fast I belive since the o nly tim es I've had the cloud form i n g h a s b e e n w h e n I ' v e
added the catalyst quick.

id have to admit, I did add it a little fa st (but I still kept it below 10c)
Its been 12 hours now, it is still cloudy (kinda greenish) but I se e crystals piling up at the bottom of the jar, I think im going to
get a lot of AP with th is batch.
VX April 7th, 2002, 07:04 PM

Yeah DBSP is right, your AP will be fine . :) , technicaly you can't add too m uch of a catalyst. Adding m ore catalyst always results
in a faster ra te of rea ction indefinatly until another factor becomes the lim iting factor to th e reactio n.
The only problems with adding lots of catalyst (generally) is firstly the cost (A few extra ml's of H2SO4 won't break the bank),
a n d r e m oving the catalyst from the produt afterwards.... this is not a problem with the production of AP as H2SO 4 is very
soluble in wa ter and AP is not, adding bicarb of soda also helps rem o v e e x e s s a c i d .
VX

It shouldn't be green... What did you stir it with?
Just to be picky, I would have thought that (generally) the m ajor problem with adding catalyst quickly would be removing heat
build-up and controlling the reaction rate:)

<img src="http://m e m bers.sh aw.ca/raydawg/pics/ap1.jpg" alt="" />
This is it at 16 hours now. It's barley green.
I u s e d m y t h erm ometer to stirr it (yes I am using a proper chem istry one).
<sm all>[ April 07, 2002, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

L o o k s o k t o m e, I can't even m a k e o u t if it is actually g reen or not. Shouldn't affect the finished product.

T h e m o r e h e at in the reaction, the faster it will form I belive. W hen I used drain cleaner, The reaction got pretty hot and the
A P f o r m e d m uch faster than it did with HCL. Your AP loo ks fine btw.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > KNO3
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View Full Version : KNO3
SATANIC October 24th, 2001, 09:14 AM

i have seen a method ( years ago, before i knew better) from jolly roger, who detailed the extraction of potassium nitrate from soil. being kewl crap (usually from jolly roger) i
dismissed, it, but i have just found it again in the white resistance manual which does have some good ideas. i'm now thinking there may be some truth in it. is there?
rikkitikkitavi October 24th, 2001, 09:30 AM

Certain bacterias found in soil produces nitrate ions.
I read something about this in a book somewhere, now forgotten, that in

the old days when wars were fought with black powder , kings often
declared that some farmers should prepare strategic salpetre soil.
I remember something about a recepie involving mixing meat and soil
(nitrogen rich ) so the bacterias had something to feed on. It also included
potash. (K2CO3) Of course the guys who did this had absolutely now
idea about bacterias.
After some time the soil was leached by water and the water evaporated.
sounds like a messy business since you can buy salpetre by the bag today
as fertilizers.
/rickard
10fingers October 24th, 2001, 10:40 AM

That's probably how the black plague got started.
I do believe this method would work but it is a lot of work. It's also in the Improvised Munitions Handbook. The nitrogen comes from the decaying animal or vegetable matter
and the potassium would come from the wood ashes.
You can buy 50 lbs of potassium nitrate for $25.00.

I've dreamed this procedure before, the yeild sucks.
If truly the ion exchange is nitrogen, and potassium (carbonate?) then bulk materials like nitrogen fertilizers would increase yeild

A lot of the Jolly Roger's stuff is ripped straight from the typed up version of the Improvised Munitions Blackbook. Not only is he a k3wl fag, he's a blatant plaguarist too.
------------------
SATANIC October 24th, 2001, 09:37 PM

i understand the impracticality of the process, but it is the ony way i would be able to get it at least till next year. i'm willing to give it a try, as it's simple at least, apart from
the pure alcohol needed. but i've got large amounts of metho lying around, so that should do .
will small amounts of methanol affect it?
the_wingman October 25th, 2001, 05:24 PM

Before you try to extract KNO3 from soil you should go to a garden center. If they don't have saltpeter you might get an other nitrate (NH4NO3,Ca(NO3)2,..). I'm sure you're
able to get KCl too. Just mix it and cool down.

i was thinking if this was possible a while ago. i don't see why it isn't really. what i would do is find the most fertile soil i can, or compost if i had any. then i'd carry out the
extraction process. after i had the crude K, NH4 nitrate crystals (i assume it would be a mixture of both) i would react it with lo salt (KCl) to form fairly pure KNO3.
well thats what i would do but i don't need to because i can buy AN which i make KNO3 from.
green beret October 26th, 2001, 10:59 AM

Satanic, where do you plan on getting your KNO3 from?
SATANIC October 26th, 2001, 09:17 PM

green beret, that's the problem, i can't get any. i have done my homework, and i know the only local supplier sells in 50kg bags for around $50. (same size and price for AN as
well) but i haven't got my drivers liscence yet, and mum doesn't really approve of my activities, so, i'm trying to do my best and improvise.
yes, i can get KCl, but in small quantities, and fairly expensive.
green beret October 26th, 2001, 10:10 PM

Maybe I could send you some cash And we go halves in a bag(when you find a way to get it) or maybe AN. How much KCl can you get and for what price?
PS do you wanna talk on yahoo chat sometime? I would love to talk with an Aussie pyro, like myself. The people on that chat room are normally a bunch of halfwits.
[This message has been edited by green beret (edited October 26, 2001).]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > free nichrome wire
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View Full Version : free nichrome wire

Go here for 10 feet of free nichrome wire in 36 gauge. At the top of the screen is a link that saids free nichrome wire. You just need to enter your e-mail and mailing address
and name lie on the name part.
www.ssaerospace.com (http://www.ssaerospace.com)
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

Woah! A two dollar value!!!
Just get it at hobby stores.
------------------

I just want to tell every one since I don't have any hobby shop around were I live that sell it, so it might be good for people that can't get it easily. So get some its free!
------------------
live by the bomb
die by the bomb

Free usually comes with a price, which looks like upto 3 months wait time.
www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) sells it, but its $42 for a 1/4# spool (~3200')http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif. I'm thinking of
purchasing a spool and Ebaying 20' lengths or something.
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
A_W March 30th, 2002, 08:37 AM

My lokal hobby shop do not sell nichrome wire, so I just ordered some (free) from Ssaerospace. Do you think they`ll send it to Norway :confused: ? If not I`ll sue them :mad:
!
Bignutsami March 30th, 2002, 09:04 AM

nope i dont reckon they do...
"Note: offer only open to US shipping addresses. Promotional gifts are shipped quarterly which may result in an elapsed time of up to 3 months between subimssion and
fulfillment."
nbk2000 March 30th, 2002, 03:17 PM

I ordered a sample of nichrome wire back in december. It's now practically april and still no "free" sample. They probably just do this to collect e-mail addresses for resale to
spammers.
I've been getting a lot of spam in the last few months. Wonder why? :mad:

Perhaps the k3wl'z that don't like you have signed you up for that xxx mail service?

I just rip the nichrome out of an old hairdryer, that's cheap. :p
A-BOMB March 30th, 2002, 05:48 PM

I got mine in january but still free is free.
Kdogg March 30th, 2002, 11:45 PM

Ordered some months ago, still hasnt come.
BoB- April 1st, 2002, 06:13 AM

There is several feet of Nichrome in toasters, I just keep my eyes open at yardsales.
nbk2000 April 1st, 2002, 05:50 PM

Speak of the devil....I just got mine a few minutes ago.
I almost lost it too. I open up the letter and read where it says "enclosed is your wire" and I'm looking through the envelope and don't see shit. I'm thinking the idiots didn't
include it.
Then I backtrack my path from the mailbox and there's this TINY little piece of cardboard with the wire wrapped around it. It's about the size of my thumbnail.
If I had taken my usual path through the field, I'd never had found it. So be careful when opening yours.
I just tested it by touching a 1/2" length to the posts of a 9v battery. The wire turned incandescent white instantly and melted into nothingness.
If you use a half inch for each igniter, you've got more than a hundreds worth for free.
:D
Just start finding empty houses and sending off for "samples" to them. That should keep you in good supply.
They also offer $20 off their DIY rocket motor kit because of the "sample". Go to <a href="http://www.ssaerospace.com/specialoffer.php"
target="_blank">www.ssaerospace.com/specialoffer.php</a> and use the special offer code: 14735. Ends May 1, 2002
PYRO500 April 1st, 2002, 11:59 PM

I just got mine too, cool stuff, it's thin enough to explode immediately with my cap discharge blasting maching (100J) I may try a few in paralell
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 01:20 AM

Shit!
I was going to try my hand at making some igniters, but now I can't find that little piece of cardboard they sent me.
:mad:
And it'll probably be ages before I trip over it while cleaning or something, considering how cluttered my place is.
Anyways, what I was going to do is take a 1/8" coil, dip it in NC slurry, building up several layers, and try firing that. I was also going to try melted KNO3/Sugar.
Anyone else make ignitors?
Mr Cool April 3rd, 2002, 06:17 AM

I normally use fuse, but if I want an electrical cap I just use about 0.5" of fuse wire or thin copper or any other thin wire I can find, with each end soldered onto bits of thicker,
insulated wire about 4" long.
That's it. I don't bother with any pyrotechnic on the wire, with a car battery it gets easily hot enough to set off the BP primer in the cap.
But if you coat it with a good layer of NC, you won't have to worry about short circuits or anything if the loop gets squished closed.
PYRO500: What voltage is that blasting machine running at? If it's high enough for a spark to jump a few mm from it, then I think the spark alone will set off most HE's. I was
reading a patent on NTO, and it said that had a spark sensitivity of around 9J, RDX is considerably more sensitive and PETN is more sensitive still...

My friend ordered some chemicals from ssa about 2 months ago and never recieved them, i heard they forget about your orders sometimes. I orderes the wire and got it too
but it took a few months.
nbk2000 April 3rd, 2002, 04:04 PM

I found the wire a little while ago, so I tried making an igniter and it worked.
I made a small loop of the nichrome connected to solid core copper wire. I then dipped this loop in NC lacquer and let it dry. I repeated this several times to build up a layer of
NC on the coil.
I then sprinkled KNO3/Sugar powder (50/50 volume) on the still wet NC and let dry. I then dipped it again in NC to coat it. After it dried, I touched it to a 9v battery and it
flared up quite nicely with a little blob of molten whatever on the end.
:D
Oh happy days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I wonder, if you had a disposable camera flash cap attached to the wire, would it vaporize the wire? Or just get it hot? Because if it will vaporize it, than that opens the way for
exploding bridge wire detonators.
Zambosan April 3rd, 2002, 04:44 PM

NBK: It would probably *not* vaporize the wire. Electrolytics in cameras can get a pretty decent voltage on them, but can't hold enough charge to provide enough energy to
vaporize a wire. To do that, you need more capacitance. Most "exploding wire" setups use several large bulk capacitors rated for high voltages, with one leg attached to an end
of the wire, and the other leg going to a spark gap (that leads to the wire). The charging circuit pumps charge across the caps until the voltage reaches the breakdown point of
the gap, at which point the air ionizes, resistance suddenly drops, and the energy rushes into the newly-formed near-short circuit. The sudden impulse of current causes a rapid
rise in temperature from resistive heating, and the wire literally boils into super-hot plasma.
BoB- April 4th, 2002, 11:30 PM

I have to disagree Zambosan, if the Nickel Chromium was cut thin enough it would most surely vaporize like steel wool, I have actually caused a single strand of copper wire to
burst about 1/4" of its length using a single disposable camera circuit.
Plan B: buy a bag of "number 3" coarse steel wool, there are about a million strands on each roll, I've had the same 2 rolls of steel wool in my house for several years now.
nbk2000 April 5th, 2002, 03:49 AM

It may be possible to use a variable resistor to adjust the voltage from a battery to a coil of the nichrome wire so that it's red/white hot, without getting so hot that it melts.
The reason for this would be to make a reuseable ignitor for a pocket dragon.
I've also just remembered about those wind up cars and toy pistols that shoot out sparks. That may also work if the sparks are hot enough to ignite ether.

hello.
I get my nicrome wire from something that looks like steel woll.
it's used for cleansing potatoes.
5cm of it will glow for many hours on 14v

Do you mean pot scrubbers?

no, this wire is difrent.. more flat.. looks like waste from a milling mashine
and it says potato scrubber on the package

The wires in my scrubbers are flat and about 1-1,5mm wide. It might be the same thing only with a different name.

sounds like the same thing.. they are spring shaped right? I Use to hold them straight and warm the wire with an lighter to straighten it out..
sorry for my bad english
RTC April 5th, 2002, 11:34 AM

A picture would be more descriptive.[sp?]

If you're talking about the wire melting or burning from resistive heating, sure. NBK wondered whether the wire would explode. This only happens if you have enough power to
dump enough current into it in a short amount of time to instantaneously boil the metal into a plasma. That produces a pretty decent shockwave; if you've ever heard a high-
voltage Buss fuse blow, you've got the idea... it'll make your ears ring, and there's probably a potential application there as a primary shockwave for detonation. Steel wool
burns (to iron (III) oxide, I *think*), which is what you get when you run a little current through it from a battery... the wire is not vaporizing, merely oxidizing.
PYRO500 April 5th, 2002, 11:41 PM

My blasting machine is 100J when I totally (actually overcharging) charge my caaps to around 100V, there are 12 electrolytics in an old breifcase style laptop case with a light
switch and a set of speaker terminals, when I discharge this across a 1.5 inch length of nichrome it instantly melts and shoots off blobs of molten nichrome (one burned my
arm) I have 2 capacitors totaling in 2 KJ combined that would be awsome as detonator caps but they take a long time and alot of power to charge and are not easy to trigger,
there is such a thing as a capacitor discharge detonator, in fact I believe some airbag systems initiate their HE charge (lead szide right?) with a small square of aluminum foil
that a capacitor discharges across and sets off the HE. I have herd of similar systems used in the precise timing of the main HE charge in nuclear weapons to get that
nanosecond timing they need.
jolly roger April 6th, 2002, 08:32 PM

yeah but what is nikrome wire, and why would i want any.
ah whatever send me sum if u want though.......
Polverone April 6th, 2002, 09:02 PM

Sodium azide is used in airbags, not lead azide. It's mixed with other components to take care of the metallic sodium generated by the azide's decomposition.

Those other ingredients in air-bag grade NaN3 are iron oxide and silicon dioxide. These obviously can easily be removed, by simply dissolving as much of the air-bag grade
NaN3 as possible in water, filtering, and evaporating off the filtered solution. Just a fact that I feel I should share (I'm not sure how well known this is, this might help out
newbies who are just lurking)... azides are comparable to cyanides in toxicity.
nbk2000 April 6th, 2002, 11:04 PM

Unless the water is extremely pure (and maybe not even then) the sodium azide will decompose, forming hydrogen azide gas, which is VERY TOXIC! On par with hydrogen
cyanide.
Oh, and any flames will cause it to explode with great force as well. Not something you want to toy with.
Of interest may be some newer airbag designs which use HMX. :)
See the patent list in the "Knowledge" section to read it. 15% HMX content. Will the fun never end?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Silver acetylide - a word of warning
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View Full Version : Silver acetylide - a word of warning
Microtek November 5th, 2001, 01:34 PM

In a few posts I have advocated the use of silver acetylide as a primary explosive in caps. This explosive has desirable characteristics such as immediate DDT in arbitrarily small
amounts (even in the open), good initiating ability (as little as 0.06 g to initiate MHN) and low sensitivity to impact (I have not been able to initiate it with a hammer).
Unfortunately, I have now discovered a flaw with this material:
It seems to be prone to form large crystals when made with very pure silver, and these large crystals detonate when broken.
This is my hypothesis, and has not been tested fully - results will follow, but when I made a batch with 100% pure silver, it exploded when I carefully shifted the crystals to
brake them up. Fortunately, SA is a very weak explosive and the detonation of about 0.5 g failed to break the thin plastic dish that it sat on. Further testing included
hammering the SA on my anvil, which produced no explosion, and drying it fully in the air, which darkens it (probably due to oxidation) and makes it contract.
After this drying process, it no longer exhibited this instability.
At the moment I'm working with the supposition that the impurities in the silver that I used in earlier batches interfered with the crystal growth. If this was the case, it might be
possible to use a procedure similar to that used in the process for making lead azide.
mongo blongo November 5th, 2001, 02:37 PM

Yea you mean using dextrin? That should work.
I think it is due to inner tension inside the crystals like with Lead Azide.
------------------
AAARRRRRHHH! My beautiful eyes! It burns!
The goggles do nothing!AAARRRRRHHH!
EventHorizon November 5th, 2001, 03:02 PM

If shifting the crystals to break them up caused detonation presumeably because of breaking crystals...how can hitting them with a hammer not break a crystal causeing
detonation? http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/confused.gif
Also, what kind of storage/shelf life does this material have? (in your experience)
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
nbk2000 November 5th, 2001, 07:07 PM

Silver azide is used to make thin film detonator for military weapons and is superior to lead azide in performance and safety.
------------------
CodeMason November 5th, 2001, 07:56 PM

Ag2C2 -> 2Ag + 2C
As you can see this "explosive" merely breaks apart into very fine particulate carbon and silver, and thus no gaseous products. Its explosive force all comes from the heat from
the breakdown of the C=C bond which heats up air around it rapidly so it expands, creating a small shockwave (this is why silver acetylide is preferred in pop rocks,
it may be poisonous, but not very dangerous as an explosive to handle for kiddies). Rapid heating and the sending of heavy metal particles into an insensitive explosive are
what gives it is initiatory properties. In the military it is almost always a double salts with AgNO3-, this increases its explosive power a lot, and
hence the name "double salts". http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
------------------
mongo blongo November 5th, 2001, 11:57 PM

EventHorizon That's a good point! Do you mean that you tried detonation with a hammer with the pure SA or the impure or both with no luck? If it was the pure SA it should
have been set off right?
NBK- I have never looked into silver azide do you think it could be made by reacting sodium azide with silver nitrate?
------------------
nbk2000 November 6th, 2001, 07:13 AM

I don't know if Ag azide is water soluble. If it is, then you'll need to seperate it from the sodium nitrate.
Some points about silver azide:
AgN3 and PbN3 are about equal in friction

sensitivity
The electrostatic sensitivity of AgN3 is about 10 times less than that of PbN3
With AgN3 is no danger for a chemical forming

into Copperazide
The relative energy output of AgN3 is higher than of PbN3
AgN3 has very good chemical stability
Handling of AgN3 is more sensitive than PbN3

during manufacturing
------------------
Microtek November 6th, 2001, 08:46 AM

Yes it is quite puzzling that hammering it does not cause an explosion. I have done that test repeatedly with both the pure and the contaminated substance. After hammering, I
have touched a flame to it which causes immediate detonation.
Shelf life is excellent; I have had a tiny sample of the original batch lying exposed to air and light since I made it, and it still works as good as ever ( I think it's been about four
months ).
With regards to the double salts, I haven't really got it to work ( though maybe that process is more sensitive to impurities in the silver ), it just deflagrates when ignited.
I am considering another way to desensitize the SA: I have tried using the process for SA to make copper acetylide simply by sustituting copper for silver, but the product is not
very impressive. It is somewhat impact sensitive but not very much so, I suspect that dissolving elemental copper in nitric acid does not give the right oxidation stage. I seem
to recall that copper is often used to alloy with silver, so if the impurity in the cutlery that I used previously was copper, it should be possible to dissolve a little copper along
with the silver and then basify this solution and bubble acetylene through.
tvs17 November 16th, 2001, 03:55 AM

nkb2000, can you tell me what silver azide has to do with the question about silver acetylide?
And by the way it is Pb(N3)2 not PbN3.
(Well...It's got silver in it, doesn't it?
It's also a primary explosive, used in detonators, and anything else I fucking want it to be.
Any other stupid questions?
PS: The info (including PbN3) was directly cut and pasted from the military contractors PDF about thin film detonator construction, so if they flubbed it (HIGHLY unlikely) tell it
to them, not me.
NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited 11-17-2001).]
a_bab November 16th, 2001, 04:58 PM

Oooops...
Microtek November 18th, 2001, 03:48 AM

I recently read an article on triboluminisence in a layman's magazine. It said that when you break crystals of many common materials, you divide the charge so that you have
a surplus of negative charge on one side of the break and a surplus of positive charge on the other. If the potential is big enough, electrons leap across the gap, creating a
spark.
This apparantly happens when you break sugar cubes, when you open some self-adhesive envelopes and in many other common instances.
This would go some way to explain why hammering the SA doesn't cause it to detonate, but shifting and breaking it carefully does; the crystal surfaces doesn't really come
apart when you hit it with a hammer. Also, the article said that electrically isolating materials were more prone to triboluminisence than conducting ones, so maybe when the SA
breaks down a little over time and produces elemental silver and carbon, it becomes conducting enough to limit the sparking.
xabxulu August 9th, 2003, 03:33 PM

Please be very carefull with any primaries "supposed" to be stable ! Two batchs of silver double salts, one done by the "standard procedure" (silver metal in HNO3), and
another from silver nitrate diluted in water, all two very insensitive from shock (with a big hammer !!!) after synthesis, are became very sensitive some month later !!! (with a
little hammer this time ;) ). As sensitive as my last sentence was long and laborious :rolleyes: !
If anyone can explain me what I did wrong, I would be happy. I stocked these in film cans in a place where the temperature is unstable (could be that ?)
Thanks.

i don't think you did anything wrong if the stuff worked initially. i have about 20g of the stuff that i made about 4-6 months ago. i did no initial test of sensitivity after initial
production so have no real comparison but i may hit some with a hammer tomorrow anyway.
did you observe any colour change during storage?
xabxulu August 9th, 2003, 05:54 PM

First of all, thanks for the reply. Yes, the initial colour of the batch made from silver nitrate was green/yellow, and now it is white with some black (stored in a transparent film
can). The other was grey, and I think it is a little more white now (stored in opaque film can). I'll verify that tomorrow, and do some sensitivity tests more precisely. I hope my
english is not too bad, if yes, don't hesitate to correct me ;) !!!

in me experience the silver double salts were creamy white to begin with and they gradually darkened over the course of a few days until they reached a dark grey colour with
white speckles. over this period i noticed a marked increase in violence of detonation and sensitivity to flame.

I just had a clean out of my lab, and found an opaque plastic tub containing some silver acetylide / double salts under distilled water, prepared by bubbling acetylene through
aqueous silver nitrate. There was also some free nitric acid in the reaction, though not much, since I leave my silver nitrate slightly damp with nitric acid. I've heard it keeps
better that way. After making it, I would have decanted off the solution, washed it with distilled water, and transferred it to the tub, with more distilled water.
It was still a very light grey colour, and behaved exactly the same as the day it was made as far as I can tell.
So I recommend that you keep it away from light and air if you're storing it.
Edit: I can't actually remember when it was made, but I think it was probably about a year ago. It was made with .999 silver and the usual lab-grade 70% HNO3, so it was
very pure, and was in the form of a very fine (amorphous?) powder.
xabxulu August 10th, 2003, 09:44 AM

I think I had a LITTLE "hover-estimate"(?) the unsafety of my product, because I have been able to ram a little of it in a plastic straw safely (always with ears and eyes
protections !!), but that's clear that it changed in his sensitivity. Next time I'll try your method of stockage Mr Cool !
Thanks
ProdigyChild May 30th, 2006, 08:51 PM

I recently produced small amounts of silver acetylide, by bubbling acetylene thorugh (cold) AgNO3 solutions. I tried plain (a) AgNO3 solution, (b) AgNO3 + NH3 solution and (c)
Ag2O + NH3 solution.
From all three solutions a white precipate was formed. I filtered and dried it.
All three products are light sensitive and become gray.
All three products are explosive, but product (c) noticeable weaker than (a) and (b).
All three products are insensitive to friction and hammering.
I put a minute amount on a heater plate. The white powder turned brown and black, but did not explode. The black remainder is still explosive and sensitive to flame.
Then, when trying to remove some of the dark powder from the heating plate, the powder exploded right when I touched it with a drinking straw (PE plastic)! :eek:
First time it exploded "without reason".
I decided to carefully grind a few crumbs of the white product (a) with rounded aluminium bar. No problem. When I cleaned the aluminium bar with a 30degrees cut drinking
straw, I noticed a flash! :eek: The 1mg of Ag2C2 that sticked to the bar exploded! Second time it exploded "without reason".
That was the time I got contemplative about Ag2C2 and handled it with more care.
Today - 3 days after - I determined the spark sensitivity of product (a).

I've got a few devices for playing with high voltage.
First experiment: Tesla coil like device producing (60kHz) high voltage, ideally suited for cold discharges (faint, deep blue light surounding conductors or conducturs coated with
dielectric). Literally **every** contact of Ag2C2 with a cold discharge lead to an immediate detonation of the material. Acetone peroxide did not ignite from such. Needless to
say, what happened when Ag2C2 was exposed to a hot arclet.
Ag2C2 also detonates on **every** attempt to ignite it with a cigarette lighter piezo.
Second experiment: static charges.

I was really impressed by the sensitivity and decided to check for Ag2C2s sensitivity to static charges. I used a voltage multiplier (Cockcroft-Walton). Positive pole connected to
earth, negative pole as charger. I charged a paper clip to no more than 2000V and touched a small amount (1mmx1mmx0.5mm) of Ag2C2.
Believe it or not - it exploded! In 5 times out of 5.
What's the capacitance of a paper clip? 10pF, 1pF or even less? At least its much less than the capacitance of a spoon, a knife, a metal wire or a cable. If any part of your
equipment gets charged by static and you touch the Ag2C2 with that part, the Ag2C2 WILL go off. The energy to set it off is a few u-Joules. Almost nothing.
OK. Blame me for not using 80-90 degrees celsius when preparing the Ag2C2. Problably I got the less desirable, less powerful but more sensitive Ag2C2, not the double salt.
But can you ensure, not to have traces of that undesirable product in your double salt product?
Are you all using ESD-protection when experimenting with silver acetylide?
I consider it so MUCH MORE dangerous than AP.
a_bab May 31st, 2006, 07:13 AM

I fully agree with the static sensitivity on Ag2C2 as I had maybe 1 gram of it in my hand going off. It was stored in a plastic can used for drugs (kind of film cans) and I was
removing the label (made of paper) when it went off. I concluded then it must have been due to the creation of static electricity and now you give me the confirmation. It was
pretty painfull. Bruises and some mild cuts due to the plastic shrapnel, and a black hand. AND ringing ears for some hours.
Exothermic April 18th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Ok, sorry for opening up an old thread but I haven't been able to find any information about this.
I have heard people saying that they have been able to store silver acetylide under water in a test tube for up to a year.
Although I have no intention to keep it for that long, I was trying to find out if temp. Would affect the silver acetylide. As this would be stored inside my lab and during the hot
summer months it can reach up to 45 degrees Celsius in there.
Personally I do not feel that it will affect it (I.e. no spontaneous detonation etc.). I would like to know from others though.
Charles Owlen Picket May 3rd, 2007, 11:43 AM

In so far as sources I am familiar with discuss the sensitivity of Ag2C2 the range form 0-50 C would not detonate the material. However, this is a silver salt(s) and UV as well
as the previously mention static certainly will have some impact on it's safety and longevity. [See USPO search for "copper carbide & detonator" which will get you some
patents on the use of acetylide energetic salts & their use in industry.]
The "big-picture" concept is that it is best not to store these materials dry. The facts that have been documented with a variety of primary-type materials are that sensitivity
will most always increase when the material is dry and that sensitivity decreases (to a degree) when moist, etc. But the impact in storage from temp fluctuations becomes an
issue when those fluctuations are rapid or reach a certain degree. However generalizing is very unproductive. - There are differing salts that can be termed "Ag2C2" as you
have read.
Within this thread is a post that addresses what significant heat imposes on Ag2C2. A search of the past posts did address some issues when the material is in storage. The
overwhelming majority of cases point to the range of initiation temp as being much higher and that sensitivity factors alter with exposure when dry to electrical, UV, and high
heat (well over 45C) stimulus.
Personally, I have seen Ag2C2 stored in water for about 2 years in temp of 40C + with no problem. However your questions begs for more info regarding storage & overall
conditions related.
I don't know if one year is necromancy. But I have read that necromancy is a crime. - Particularly when rigor sets in. (I'm kidding, of course, but this then points to a question
of when to start a new thread and when to continue an existing one...)
nbk2000 May 3rd, 2007, 10:57 PM

Necromancy is bringing up an old thread for the purpose of saying or asking something stupid.
Things like 'Me too' or dumb n00b comments, or asking questions of someone who hasn't posted in years, result in a ban.
Posting a relevant post in the only existing, or most relevant thread, even if it is several years old, is not Necromancy, and is preferred to creating a new thread.
Wydarr May 16th, 2007, 10:28 AM

I have a very "precious" friend, that has had a very intimate encounter with the silver acetylide. The short story is that he was stupidly mixing silver and copper acetylide
(some 50g) with a screwdriver in a ceramic dish, and the shit went kaboom. The reason i say he is precious, is that ever since the incident, his left hand and belly are full of
tiny particles of silver, copper and carbon embedded under the skin, which gives him a unique appearance.
truonggiang_male90 July 22nd, 2007, 12:29 AM

The SA is Fucking unstable, I had an accident when working with it, but nothing happened with me. I crushed it under water and it exploded. The jar was broken and the
remain water become to black (with Carbon in it).....
--------------
This is a video on testing SA with a flame, it exploded with a lound crack sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXbSSB0G6ow
Charles Owlen Picket July 22nd, 2007, 03:36 PM

Crushing an energetic material is not a determinate of instability. The stimulus of crushing provides initiation in some of the most stable primaries ever synthesized.
Wherein a statement that directs a result from a stimulus (crushing) to that of initiation is a standard of sensitivity.....not a determinate of stability.
Crush a primary and it initiates: that is in no manner a determinate of stability.
Exothermic July 22nd, 2007, 05:42 PM

Pure silver acetylide (AgC2) is extremely sensitive from what I have read. However it's counter-part the double salt (AgC2*AgNO3) is alot less sensitive and overall more
powerful.
It tends to be the case that most people think they are the same compound. So that youtube video is most likely showing double salts detonating, not pure silver acetylide.
Enkidu July 24th, 2007, 04:05 AM

i crushed it under water and it exploded.
SwiE has crushed MOIST silver acetylide many, many times with no problem. (SwiE has also smacked it with a hammer and briefly put a lit match on it. Nothing happens.)
Crushing DRY silver acetylide (whether under water or not) is just plain dumb.
Wherein a statement that directs a result from a stimulus (crushing) to that of initiation is a standard of sensitivity.....not a determinate of stability.
Nice catch.
totenkov October 5th, 2007, 10:35 PM

I just tried to make a new batch of SA and am real pissed off :(. I am using bought 18 molar silver nitrate and acetylene gas from my O/A setup. I ran the acetylene through
the solution and it turned the white within seconds. I ran the gas for about 40 seconds and then let it sit for 10 minutes. I then attempted to filter the solution to collect the
yeild only the entire solution went straight through the filter, nothing was collected. I used about 15 mL of AgNO3 and 45mLs water.
I then thought that maybe I didn't run the acetylene for long enough and turned it back on. After the solution began to turn a browny grey. I copied brainfevers method (the
whole thing was done in aqueous nitric acid). And I see that his SA settled on the bottom of the graduated cylinder. Mine stays suspended in the mix and simply wont filter,
What the hell happend?! Its out in my lab now, should I dump it?
Charles Owlen Picket October 6th, 2007, 09:47 AM

Only my opinion but IF the LENGTH OF TIME in introducing the acetylene gas was long enough and the amount was in proportion....look to the quality of the gas itself.
The highest yields and the best quality product I have ever seen was utilizing calcium carbide as a source for acetylene gas. This virtually guaranteed that the above issues
were done away with.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > germ a n b l a c k h e a d al
Log in
View Full Version : german blackhead al
spud555555 April 19th, 2001, 11:37 PM

I found this chemistry website that sells german blackhead al 400 m e s h f o r $ 1 8 / l b
check it out@ http://www.chem l a b . c o m / a n d g o i n t o c h e m icals,
nbk2000 April 20th, 2001, 12:19 AM

spud, you've only got 5 posts, and posted 3 topics. Here, you don't post a topic till you've been around awhile and posted
replies to existing topics.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them "
Go here (http://m embers.nbci.com / a n g e l o _ 4 4 4 / d l o a d . h t m l) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.
Agent Blak April 20th, 2001, 12:48 AM

NBK2000,
help ful is helpful. Aslong as it isn't "yeah So where can I buy/Ma ke Nitro" I have gasoline and viniger. but listing a source for
high Mesh(400) Al wh at is wrong with that?
------------------
"...T here Will Be No
Stand O ff At High Noon
... Shoot'em I n T h e B a c k
And, Shoot'em I n T h e D a r k "
blackadder April 20th, 2001, 11:03 AM

and what's up with that bloody nam e! All those 5's were NOT neccesary! You m ake this forum look trashy when you have tho se
STUPID bloody numbers all over the place!
Mr Cool April 20th, 2001, 12:43 PM

W ell I'm grateful to h im !
T h a t p l a c e a l s o h a s m annitol, which is hard to find, and lots of o xidisers and other useful chem icals. A bit expensive for som e
of them though.
And if you look at sodium metal it says "not sh i p p a b l e " , s o I a s s u m e that they can ship 400 m esh German Blackhead Al,
a m monium perchlorate etc. to non-US countries.
Agent Blak April 20th, 2001, 05:01 PM

Does that include North American Countries?
W ould that n ot interfere with the North American Free Trade Agreement(NAFTA)? Anybody know?
Alchemist April 20th, 2001, 07:03 PM

G o o d l o o k i n g s i g h t . M a n y c h e m icals and glassware at fair prices. Also two location s in California! Great........................
------------------
MacCleod April 26th, 2001, 12:26 AM

Thanks for the link,Bro!.20 bu cks for 5 lb.'s of sodium chlorate,amm . chloride for $1.60 a lb. in bulk;definitely a useful site!.

m a y b e I d i d s o m ething wrong but all I got was some Microsoft site. Anyo ne know what m ight have gone wrong?
Disturbed August 21st, 2001, 06:54 AM

Yea, I can't get any site either.. looks like it just defaulted to the M$ IIS shiznit..
who knows, sounded interesting, but I think I'll still order m y next big ba tch from firefox anyway.. O ver there you can pick up
5lbs of KClO3 for 16$ .. plus 2m icron german blackhead Al for 17.50!

Does firefox have a website to order from ?
EventHorizon August 21st, 2001, 11:21 PM

I wonder what happened to ch e m l a b . c o m I have ordered from t h e m b e f o r e a n d t h e y s e e m e d t o b e a g o o d c o m p a n y . T h i n g s
like this m a k e m e wo rry. http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif
Disturbed August 22nd, 2001, 04:24 AM

EricM,
In case you didn't track it down yet, their website is www.firefox-fx.com (http://www.firefox-fx.com)
You do have to be 21 to order from them , just like Skylighter. If you're really lucky, like I was, I actually got m y parents to let
m e order 1lb of 2m icron Mg, 10lbs KClO 3, 5lbs KNO3, 1lb 300m esh Al, and 1lb iron oxide for thermite...
I'm g o n n a h a v e t o g e t m ore KClO 3, cause that w/ vaseline is just too m uch fun!
Arcane August 22nd, 2001, 10:55 PM

W hat the heck is up with this?
"spud, you've only got 5 posts, and posted 3 topics. Here, you don't post a topic till you've been around awhile and posted
replies to existing topics."
That sounds like total crap. As if a newcom er would have nothing to offer?
F o r e x a m ple:
say I was a chemistry teacher and had a interesting topic, I would have to wait m onths building up posts so it would be
acce ptable to post it?
That only encourages people to reply to anything, with any old crap just to raise the post am ount.
Use the search option, if doesn't come up, post it.
Arcane

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Acetone peroxide - special instructions?
Log in
View Full Version : Acetone peroxide - special instructions?
c_mass March 13th, 2002, 08:50 AM

Hi all. I have recently gotten a copy of the Makeshift Arsenal and i found a recipe for acetone peroxide. It details the
quantities of the ingredients, but it doesnt say whether there are any special instruction for a) mixing the chemicals, or b)
storing them, It does say that the product is shock, heat and friction sensitive, so is the best oplace to store it afterwards in
the fridge? what about if i am transporting it to the site? what kind of friciton will set it off, liek if i am packing it into a case? If
someone can tell me these things (sorry for asking so many questions on a firs tpost) please let me know
thanks all

First post is a new topic.. about something that we talk about so very often. Which leads me to believe that either he didn't
wait a while before posting, or search engines are his enemy. Either way the mods will probably waste no time in getting
revenge.
On a brighter note, however, I usually transport mine while damp.. less chance of it going off. Or sometimes I will bring the
unfiltered precipitate and all with me and then filter/dry it at the site. It really depends on how good you are at making it and
what your final ratio of dimeric to trimeric is. As for chem ratios, at least try and do a search, most everyone around here has
made a batch of AP at one time or another so just about every detail has been discussed. And just for your sake about the
friction question, just try to be as safe with it as possible.. the people around here that make it very often know most about
how much to pack it, as for someone like me who makes only 75g for every 6 months or more, should probably rely on the
'better safe than sorry' precept.
What's that coming this way? NBK? Sounds like he is probably not to happy.. I am out of here... <img border="0" title=""
[ March 13, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

Oh dear! :p
Is the waiting period function still disabled?
UAC labs March 29th, 2002, 02:19 AM

In certain texts about AP it notes that when the crystals of AP are stored in a closed container it will crystalize into a super-
unstable form that could explode at the touch even if damp!!!! What super-unstable form is that?
Pu239 Stuchtiger March 29th, 2002, 04:35 AM

The form of dangerously large crystals, which may detonate when stressed.
nbk2000 March 29th, 2002, 07:24 AM

The rule is to NOT make your first post a new topic. This is because the vast majority of newbies ask/say the lamest things
imaginable.
But we do occasionally get someone who knows what they're talking about so they're the exceptions.
YOU are not one of these people.
But, since you did ask a reasonable question about safety, which shows your willing to learn and are concerned about such
things, and even got it in the proper section, you won't get deleted.
However, you're on "probation" which means you can continue posting in other peoples topics, but may not post a new topic
yourself till you get at least 30 replies in other topics. And "me too/that's right/uh huh" etc. DON'T count as replies either.
da man March 29th, 2002, 08:36 AM

I think the super unstable form that crystalises after a while when not submerged under water is the monomer form of acetone
peroxide, the trimer being most stable, then the dimer and then the very unstable monomer. If storing acetone peroxide
(never store for more than 2-3 weeks) submerge it under water, this stops the monomer from forming, also i assume you
know about washing it with bi-carb of soda?

Now don't flame me immediately:
Wouldn't it be a nice idea to have a 'newbee section' here, so newbees can post their lame remarks there, and bother noone
that doesn't want to be bothered?
(Hey...is is good friday today...just wanted to be nice.)
xoo1246 March 29th, 2002, 09:49 PM

There is a newbie(/kewl) section at <a href="http://www.bombchock.com" target="_blank">www.bombchock.com</a> go there
if you enjoy reading stupid comments from ignorant people.

Er, that's <a href="http://www.bombshock.com" target="_blank">www.bombshock.com</a>

Alright I haven't been online in a week but finally I am back.. Anyways one of the experiments that went on during my 'down
time' was to test whether or not the idea of using '10 times as much of 3% H2O2'. The ratio was 1.8L 3% H2O2:350mL
acetone:80mL 94% H2SO4. Well its been roughly 4 full days and no reaction has taken place at all. (So I don't suggest
anyone else try this unless they think they have enough patience to possibly 'wait it out').
Also I tried boiling another 1.8L down to 90mL (thats about 5% of the original volume) and then made a mix of the 90mL
H2O2:180mL acetone:10mL H2SO4... and after 9 hours I have approximately 80g AP (when damp).. and when compared to
the old lab grade 28% that I used to use when back in highschool.. I would say that my boiled down H2O2 is about 30-40%
pure.
Out of my AP that I made, I made 40g into one rubber cement/AP charge which is almost done drying and ready to use (the
rubber cement seems ot speed up the drying speed greatly no to mention it greatly increases the density). The other 40g is
going to be dried pure (and it is much farther behind on drying than the rubber cement AP) and will be used in a APPA
(acetone peroxide/picric acid) charge.
Anyways as far as safety goes, it is always better not to ever store it for more than a day or two.. just make it as needed. I
never store mine in containers so I wouldn't be able to say anything about crystallization.. and for the time that I do have it
'stored' (which is never more than a few days), I just leave it in an open container.

I wouldn't mix TNP with CTAP if I were you, especially since TNP is acidic (more acidic than hydroflouric acid!). Why not just use
the CTAP pure in a det to set off pure TNP?

Well, it's no longer good friday. So please forget my remarks about a newbee section here. (Checked out bombshock....gosh,
are they stupid!!)
Instead, I'd opt for not allowing any members of bombshock ever to come here at all.

i don't think thats such idea since there are members there who are willing, and want to learn this art. If they come here they
will see the light and learn fast.
AP comments:
1. if you have to store it for more than a day, store it in a heap on a piece of paper. this will offer little confinement so if it
goes off it will cause less damage. in general, DON'T STORE IT!
2. it is very sensitive! avoid heat sources, make sure after mixing the ingredients it is transfered straight to the fridge. also
pre-cooling the ingredients will also help. if you do both these thing you should end up with a high proportion of the trimeric
form which is more powerful and less sensitive.
3. don;t make huge amounts of it. scale down the makeshift arsenal ratios by about half. a small amount can cause alot of
damage. this isn;t blackpowder or some other crude deflagration explosive, this is true detonation.
megalomania April 1st, 2002, 01:34 AM

I am afraid I must take the dubious credit for saying AP in a closed container forms a 'super unstable' form. I shall endeavor
to clarify that henceforth. I was actually paraphrasing a literature source describing how a detonation occurred when a sealed
container was opened. The 'super unstable' form is not a chemical form, but a crystalline one, specifically microfine crystalline
structures that form in the grooves of a container that possess a rather large surface area. This large surface area contributes
to increased friction within the crystals tremendously escalating the probability of a detonation. I should also note that such a
condition would only be a matter of concern if the container has been stored for a number of months or years. The volatility of
AP is such that 50% of its volume will diminish after 3 months in an open container. Storing it damp, or better still in solution
is the best way to go.
It is my belief that a newbie section is not necessary because there is no excuse for stupid questions period. This forum has
rules, but I did not just make these things up, they come from proper netiquette. I assume everyone here has gone to
school, so you should be familiar with the way life works. I expect people to act no different here than they do in real life.
T h a t m e a n s y o u d o n t kee p raising your ha nd to interrupt the lectu re, if you have a question you can wait till afterwards. As in
after you have heard the lecture, and after you have read the material. If you have a complex question and you went to
your teacher and as ked him to give you all the answers he will steer you towards th e lib rary, he isn t abo ut to do it for you,
but he will point the way.
The Forum is a gradeless center of learning where the line between teacher and student is blurred, and where the beginner
and the expert sit side by side. We all have things to learn, and we all have things to teach in our own way. I only ask that you
conduct yourself here as you would any other gathering. As in life, the questions you ask are not nearly as important as how
you ask them. Mastering the art of effectively writing the English language will motivate the knowledgeable to favor you with
their information.
A newbie is merely a person who is new to The Forum. Being a newbie does not automatically mean you lack the mental
capacity to conduct yourself in a fashion appropriate to our standards, lacking mental capacity altogether does. This is why we
exterminate kewls, if they were truly knowledgeable then they would not have posted what they did in the way they did. The
people here will either treat these serious topics as serious or casually.
For too long all of the other websites that discuss the same subject matter we do have treated it casually. They have set the
tone on the Internet as to what proper decorum is when posting about this material. Established scientific websites have
turned up their noses at our subject matter by refusing to discuss it whatsoever, except behind closed and locked doors. The
Forum is the sole refuge for the truly interested intellectual seeking serious discourse on serious topics. The other websites
that are our u nfortuna te competition are not even in o ur league. The y believe in fre edom of opinion abo ve all else, and in
that freedom they have become censors. They have censored the truly knowledgeable by giving voice to the fool. Here my
friends, here the fool is preyed upon like the slow weak animals they are.
nbk2000 April 1st, 2002, 12:35 PM

Competition? LOPSIE and Queerpier? BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!
They're not competitors, they're herds. They lure away the moronic k3wls who'd otherwise be cluttering our Forum with inane
drivel. More power to them.
Indeed, k3wls are moronic grass eaters who graze on the moron weeds that sprout from the droppings of their fellow
herdmates. It's no wonder that they never evolve past the 43^r20/\/\3 baking soda and vinegar pressure bottle "bomb".
They mindlessly graze, not seeking out information, but rather, just passively ingest whatever happens to cross their aimless
path. They show no discrimination or taste, just mindlessly ingesting, then shitting out, anything that they can fit in their
mouths.
Whereas, Forumites are information predators who, not devoting their entire waking existance to mindless grazing, have time
to contemplate higher thoughts and evolve. So while I lounge around the watering hole, waiting for my next k3wl meal to
saunter by, let us contemplate this fact:
Meat is for predators, vegetables are for prey.
What are YOU? Predator or Prey?
I know my meal preference. :)
[ April 03, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
mark April 1st, 2002, 03:37 PM

I never could get that fucking baking soda bomb to work...Any sugestions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif"
/>
nbk2000 April 2nd, 2002, 01:07 AM

Oh GOD! Please tell me you're not serious?!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
The reason it usually doesn't work is because CO2 is soluable in water. Water which is present in large quantities in the
vinegar. Thus the CO2, being absorbed into the water and reducing in volume by 400x or more, doesn't have enough pressure
to rupture the bottle.
Now, if you use sulphuric acid instead.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Or aluminum and hydrochloric, aluminum and lye, and several others.
My personal suggestion would be a bottle with gasoline, H2SO4, magnesium (or zinc), and a road flare burning nearby. :D
Zambosan April 2nd, 2002, 12:14 PM

Since we've drifted into the realm of somewhat kewl devices I'll offer a short, fun one myself. Mix yourself some lye and
aluminum shavings (or foil) into a large glass jar. Be generous; 1/3 of the jar should do nicely. Fill said jar 2/3 full with
gasoline or any light petroleum distillate (acetone, xylene, toluene, etc.) Place in a closed room like a garage, place and light
several candles at far corners of the room near the floor. Shut all the doors (except one for your cowardly exit of course), and
quickly fill the jar the rest of the way with water. The water will displace the gas, el reaction begins, and the jar starts chugging
out dense gasoline vapors that swirl and happily mix with any available oxygen. I'll leave the rest to your imagination and
don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. :D
Okay, back on topic. (Hey, I didn't start it... :rolleyes: )
mark April 2nd, 2002, 09:54 PM

I was kidding nbk, though Ive tried the device many a time before. Pretty entertaining on a rainy day I might add.
Rat Bastard April 3rd, 2002, 08:06 PM

Competition? LOPSIE and Queerpier? BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Errr, I think that should be BOMBSHOCK & <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/queerpier!.jpg"

target="_blank">QueerPier</a>
Totse is not competition. They are 26 small individual forums, not really concentrated at all on weapons, anarchy & explosives.
However BOMBSHOCK & <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/queerpier!.jpg" target="_blank">QueerPier</a>, are

concentrated on weapons, anarchy & explosives. AND I have seen ppl at Bombshock call us "lamers & clowns", and people
wierdpier having this giant hate toward NBK because of the main guy there being banned.
I have never seen ppl at Totse dis this place.
So leave totse out of the equation and put BOMBSHOCK in.

Anthony April 3rd, 2002, 08:33 PM

Do you like, work for TOTSE?
Rat Bastard April 3rd, 2002, 08:41 PM

I used to be there, but I evolved instead of staying there, as nbk stated; I know my meal of preference :) . I lurk form place
to place. Totse is still pretty fucked up, but It does not even hold a candle to the Kewlness of BOMBSHOCK .
And anthony why do you think that? if I was working for totse, I would be saying shit like "GRAAAA HAHAHA YOU CLOWNS!! S33
/\/\Y 1337 H4X0R B0/\/\B3R sK1LLZ, I 4M TEH BESTEST"
.
.
.
:rolleyes:
---
you can get more info from this site than all of them kewl pages combined and multiplied by 50.
mark April 3rd, 2002, 10:16 PM

Kiss ass
nbk2000 April 4th, 2002, 12:54 AM

If you've never seen LOPSIE dis' us, then you haven't been looking long enough because most of us here have.
But the ravings of the inmates of the asylums of LOPSIE and Queerpier are just like the annoying buzzings of a gnat in our
ears...irrelevant.
Queerpier, especially, has a personal hatred of me since so many of the lames there have been banned by me PERSONALLY
that I even have my own personal anti-fan club there! :o :D
It'd be easier to list who at Queerpier HASN'T been banned. :p
But, as I've often said..."if nobody hates you, you're doing something wrong". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
fire stilzchen April 4th, 2002, 12:45 PM

hi ppl,
I do a search but can anyone specify me how much of pressure I can use to press AP in a small plastic cartridge [diameter=1
cm, heigt=4cm]?
It is my second batch of AP, the first only was a small POPFF. But I've read, I must wash the AP more and press it for good
results.
Can I use 50gramm of weight for this cartridge or less?
- fire stilzchen -
[edit: do I have to press it wet or dry?]
[ April 04, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: fire stilzchen ]

If you press it wet, it will never dry.
Also, I recentley made a batch of AP yesterday. It was my first time making it in in like 6 months, and it was my first time ever
using HCL as the catlysist. The batch was made from 100ml pure acetone, 60ml of 30% hydrogen peroxide, and 15ml of HCL
of an unknown purity. Its been in the ice for about 17 hours, and all there is is a tiny amount of AP so far(its like a mist on
the bottom.) Is this normal for a HCL reaction? With sulphuric acid, I would have heaps of of glorious AP by now. Thanks for
any help I can get.

What acid have you used before? H2SO4? Personally I've allways used HCl. I've got a batch of AP yielding now as well. I put
the reaction vessel in the frezer and chilled the reactants to -4 before adding the acid, this way the temp never ges near 10
degrees. Is there some reson you shuldn't use this method?
Since you can add lots of acid at the same time without to much temp. rise the AP starts forming even before all acid is added
and the liguid gets very cloudy at first and then the AP is formed in layers that sink to the bottom as the layer gets to heavy.
You can clearly see the layers after half an hour. Right now it has been reacting for about 2 hours and there is a thick layer at
the bottom now.
When using my ratios all liquid is consumed and when the reaction is finnished there is a solid cake of AP left in the jar.

would a solid cake be a safe idea? or could you simply add water to it to disperse the crystals and break the cake?

When i used sulphuric acid I always got suck a cake. Ive got mist now, thanks to using HCL. Maybee I should add more acid?

I added 15ml more acid today. Ill check tomorrow to see if anything came of it.

Doesn't AP react with metals?

I've never had any problems with AP and metals. I don't think it's acid sensitive, HMTD is though. If it isn't acid sensitive there
shuldn't be any problems combining it with TNP.
I used AP and TNP in a det today but I put a paper sheet between them just to make shure.

as far as i know it doesn't corrode metals. it may after a VERY long time but not as aggressively as HMTD does. this i am
unsure of however.
the other statement, compatible my ass!
i mean, they may mean just don;t react together, but surely if its acidic then mixing a peroxide with it is asking for trouble. all
these accidents you hear of with HMTD and AP usually can be traced back to improper neutralisation.
acidity + peroxide = unstable
but if anybody wants to try it, store it for a couple of days then do sensitivity tests then that may be useful.
a mix of TNP/AP, 10/90. this will be fuse sensitive and can be regarded as simliar to AP, impact tests could be compared to
straight AP. if i was insane, had some AP and TNP lying around i'd do it myself, but i'm non of those!

I regularly press CTAP into metal casings (mainly .22 shells) and have never had any problems.
However I can vouch for HMTD reacting with metals and would like to tell you a little story.
Once upon a time a friend of mine was filling a 12g CO2 cartridge with HMTD and as he was filling it he noticed it getting warm,
so put it in the frezzer to cool down. After a couple of mins chilling he resumed filling the cartridge and then "BANG!!", the
cartridge rocketed out of his hand, smashed a 5cm diameter hole in the bench and bounced into his hip causing a gash that
required 3 stiches.
God knows why the cartridge wasn't blown into a thousand pieces, by all rights he should be missing a hand.
The moral of this story is, "never mix HMTD with metals...EVER".
I have some HMTD pressed on top of some picric acid right now. It's in a cardboard tube with 'rapid filla' endplugs, been sitting
on a shelf for about a day now.
This is just a test to see if I can get my picric acid to detonate (I've been having a lot of trouble with it lately).
Kurt.

Hello,
when i make some AP, somethimes the crystalls are like sugar.. but the other times they are like a fine powder...really
strange :rolleyes:
i use Megalomania's method, but instead of H2SO4 i use 32% HCl.

has anyone an idea what can be the reason of this?
pretty shitty, as the larger crystals are more, more sensitive than the small ones...
the small ones don't go boom after an blow with an hammer, the larger ones will.
Cya
[ April 06, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]
vonK April 6th, 2002, 08:25 PM

When I make CTAP it is always a fine powder (but not as fine as HMTD).
I store my CTAP in match boxes and after about a month the powder has become sugar sized crystals, sometimes even
bigger.
However these crystals seem no more sensitive than the powder. I usualy put them on a sheet of paper and crush them with
the handle of a screwdriver.
Only a couple of crystals at a time, all though none have ever exploded I'm not stupid enough to crush a heap all at once.
I use H2SO4.
I have also used an 80% acetone nail polish remover solution that contained lots of additives (dyes, vitamins, aloe vera etc.)
and the final product was no different as if I had used 100% acetone.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2002, 01:11 AM

I tried earlier today to make it using bleach instead of acid.
(all parts by volume)

1 part acetone (CP)
1 part bleach (sodium hypochlorite 5.25%)
2 parts 12% H2O2
After precooling to 10 degrees F the premixed acetone and peroxide, I added the precooled (also 10F) bleach.
An immediate and vigourous foaming occurred as each drop was added.
After adding all the bleach, I put it back in the freezer.
It's been 10 hours and there is NO precipate.
I remembered an old topic that mentioned using liquid bleach instead of acid. I didn't bother to look it up, rather wanting to
see myself if it would work. I'll review the old post (if it was archived) and compare results.

I appreciate people doing testing and posting their results but this sounds rediculous. The acid (as I would expect EVERYONE
should know), is used as a catalyst.. you are doing no good whatsoever by substituting the acid with yet another oxidizer to go
along with the H2O2.
I am not meaning to put you down NBK, but what made you think that this would work.. if your were going to do this test you
might as well have just mixed acetone with the bleach, because the H2O2 isn't going to be very readily broke down into its
oxidizing component, O2, without an acid.
And also to those of you who wonder why HCl makes a finer powder than H2SO4 which tends to make granulated AP when dry:
the H2SO4 is virtually always much more concentrated and if you bought it from anywhere other than a certified chemical
supply house, then more than likely there will be some additives mixed in with your H2SO4 (whether on purpose or due to
shortcuts taken when making the H2SO4 at the factory). The HCl, however, is almost completely clean of additives.. the
process of bubbling hydrogen chloride tends to be much less messy than that of bubbling hydrogen sulfide into the water.
Nonetheless these additives tend to bind together your AP to a certain extent.
I have experimented using 94% drain cleaner H2SO4 with 97% lab grade H2SO4. After 3 hours the AP was collected and
allowed to dry while the filtrates of both were replaced in the refrigerator. The 94% made a black/brown AP that even when
dried tended to clump together very easy. The AP made with the 97% lab grade made granules although they much
resembled sugar in the reason that they didn't clump together much at all (if any.. in fact some of it was fine enough to even
blow away when a gust of wind blew through my garage windows). The filtrate was allowed to sit for 8 more hours. The 94%
made white crystals slightly larger than that of the first batch from the 97% AP.. they tended to clump a little, but not near as
bad as the first batch of 94%. The 97% made AP equal in size to that as the first batch it made. The filtrates were then
allowed to sit for 15 more hours. The resulting AP from both were the same.
When using HCl, you won't have all the additives that your store-bought H2SO4 will have.. and likewise you will have a lower
concentration of acid meaning that more water will be in your mix.. you will recieve basically the same results when using a mix
of 30% HCl:acetone:30% H2O2 as you would with 60% HCl:acetone:15% H2O2 assuming that you measure this within a short
amount of time because if you just wait it out, then your 30% H2O2 will obviously precipitate more. The point is that the more
water that is available.. the longer the reaction will take.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2002, 03:40 AM

Any newbie can make AP using HCl or sulphuric.
I'm not interested in recreating the wheel.
I AM interested in finding other common things that can be used to make AP besides the two acids.
So, rather than criticising it, why don't you try it? Or try some creative experiments with other substances as catalysts?
Here's one, phosphoric acid. Often used in toilet cleaners. Has anyone tried citric acid?
We need to increase our knowledge base of what will and won't work as catalysts.
BTW, there is now an ice-like layer at the bottom of the bottle. I took a piece out and let it warm up. It melted into a liquid. I
tried igniting it, but it won't. I'm assuming it's water. If I had my digital thermometer available I'd boil it and measure its Bp.
PS: Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. I'm not going to assume something won't work till I've tried it. Otherwise, we'd
still be thinking the earth was flat and the sun orbited the earth.
PPS: Sulphuric acid is made with Sulfur Trioxide reacting with water, not Hydrogen Sulphide.
[ April 07, 2002, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]

Phosphoric acid would work, but not that well due to a relatively high pKa. However, this fact could be very useful for the
desperate. The only ways I can imagine possible to prepare cyclo(di/tri/tetra) 2-peroxypropane (commonly called acetone
peroxide) are reaction of hydrogen peroxide and acetone in the presence of an inorganic acid catalyst; and the auto-oxidation
of isopropyl ether.
Explanations for the results of your experiment: the NaOCl is oxidizing the H2O2 to H2O and O2 gas (I don't think that is the
answer, but it is a possibility). If you want to find out if NaOCl really does oxidize H2O2, you will have to prepare your own
NaOCl by electrolysis of a cold aqueous solution of NaCl; why you will have to do so will be explained shortly. The other
explanation has to do with the composition of household bleach. NaOCl is unstable in any environment other than a strongly
alkaline solution. Most sodium hypochlorite bleaches contain NaOH to make the solution strongly alkaline. Strongly alkaline
compounds catalytically decompose H2O2 into H2O and O2. Interesting experiment that one can do to prepare NaOH in a
quite wasteful manner, and that will prove that H2O2 is catalytically decomposed by an alkaline pH:
React NaHCO3 with an excess of H2O2 solution. Be wary; at first the reaction appears to be slow, but the reaction rate
(foaming is a result of the reaction) increases exponentially; this is because the pH begins to increase as the reaction
proceeds. You will need to keep a close watch on this experiment.
[ April 07, 2002, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Pu239 Stuchtiger ]
Polverone April 7th, 2002, 05:26 AM

I'm pretty sure Pu239 is right about the foaming being the liberation of O2 gas as H2O2 and NaOCl meet. Acetone and
hypochlorites alone - no H2O2 - can be used to make chloroform. I doubt that any better catalyst than H2SO4 or HCl will ever
be found for the acetone peroxide reaction.
But if you want to try more materials you might try solid "pH down" for pools - generally sodium bisulfate - which is easier to
get than sulfuric acid and doesn't fume like hydrochloric does. You would of course need to do an extra-thorough wash and
neutralization of your product, since sodium bisulfate's a solid. Another exotic (and nasty) possibility might be ammonium
bifluoride, which is found in some toilet cleaners and requires nearly the same handling procedures as hydrofluoric acid. As
long as you're trying out weak organic acids like ascorbic and citric, why not give acetylsalicylic a shot? Or, certainly, acetic? It's
at least stronger than citric. Heck, I tell you what, I'm going to try using acetic myself, just to see if it works.
Or - for super-duper ghetto chemistry - you could see what sort of results you can get from the worst of raw materials: 3%
antiseptic peroxide, nail polish remover, and toilet cleaner. Visiting a paint store isn't suspicious but visiting the grocery store
is even less so. On the bright side, I doubt you'll have to worry about excessively vigorous reactions.
nbk2000 April 7th, 2002, 06:55 AM

Well, there's only two gases that could be released by the reaction between peroxide and hypochlorite: Oxygen or Chlorine.
Since I didn't smell any chlorine, that leaves oxygen.
But, just to verify this, I just mixed the peroxide and hypchlorite together in a capped vial. I then held a lit lighter to it and
watched the flame progress down the vial to the liquid.
Thus, Oxygen.
(BEAVIS)
FIRE, FIRE, Cool, Cool! HEHE..HEHE.
(/BEAVIS)
There's a very tiny amount of precipitate in the AP reaction mix vial in the freezer. I don't know if it's AP or water traces. But,
even if it was AP, it'd be a pathetic yield, thus a waste of time anyways.
Yikes April 7th, 2002, 09:25 AM

As NBK said: Sulphuric acid is made with Sulfur Trioxide reacting with water, not Hydrogen Sulphide.
But H2S IS an acid, so it may be used to make AP, I guess.

(I'm not sure why you would want to do that, though: smelly, and toxic too.)
However, all things should be tried once. Any volunteers? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I tried acetic acid a long time ago, and it didn't work. I placed 300mL 3% H2O2 solution, 50mL acetone in a beaker. When I
added 100mL of 5% acetic acid, the solution became a highly translucent white. However, even a week later no additional
change had occurred.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > AP wasnt created
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View Full Version : AP wasnt created
Iaki March 18th, 2002, 05:38 PM

Hi! The day before yesterday I tried to m ake a little bit of AP. I m ixed th e c o m p o n e n t s a n d p u t t h e m in the fridge (I used pure
a c e t o n e 3 % H 2 O 2 a n d H 2 S O 4 in water, more or less 7 parts H2O2, 2 parts acetone and 1 of sulfuric). The reaction started to
go, for the first half a n hour, the AP seem to appear, but after a n hour, the little crystals of AP formed disappeared an no
m ore AP was created. May the Ap be dissolved in the acetone? Or the reaction can be "fucked"? (sorry for the expre sion). Ive
m ade AP a few times more but only the last two ones not only a gram of AP were created. Thanks a lot

How long did you leave it for? With such a low conc of ho, it will take m uch m ore than 24 hours.

yer, should be left for about 3 -4 days with 3%. also you say you used sulphuric with water. what concentration was it? if it was
too low the reaction will not be catalysed effectively.

I f o n e d e c i d e s t o u s e 3 % H 2 O 2 i n s t e a d o f 3 0 % H 2 O 2, they will have to use ten tim e s a s m uch H2SO4 if they are to achieve
sim ilar reaction rates.
Iaki March 18th, 2002, 07:44 PM

it was 98% sulfuric acid, but i m ix it in two parts of water and let it cool in the fridge, because if I m ix it with the acetone H2O2
in that percentage, the reaction produces too m uch hot and I thought it could broke the reaction. The rarest of the case is that
a t i m e a g o I u s e d t h e s a m e com p o n e n t s i n t h e s a m e p ercentag es and AP started to form inmediately and the reaction
finished in a period of 3 days (as all of you have said) but now, nor a little bit can be seen. Perhaps i should try using 25%
hidrocloric acid? Thanks again

He is correct about using ten tim es as much H2O2.. but what also happens when you have 3%, is that all that extra water also
lowe rs the co ncentration of your H2SO4 when added so you will need m ore. Also it usually takes 10-12 hours for m y AP to fo rm
and I use a 10:15:1 of boiled H2O2:acetone:94% H2SO4. So by using only 3%, it will probably also take 10 tim e s a s l o n g f o r
the reaction to occur.
T h e s i m plest way is just to boil it and save som e tim e.. its not worth it to wait.

The right ratio is supposed to be: pure H2O 2:a c e t o n e : a c i d - 1 : 6 : a b o u t 1 0 % o f t h e t o t a l a m m ount schould be acid. But when
using very large amm o u n t s y o u s h o u l d h a v e m o r e t h a n 1 0 % a c i d s , p e r h a p s 2 0 - 2 5 % w h e n u s i n g 3 % H 2 O 2 a n d a b i t e x t r a
acetone. Making AP with 3% is hard because of the shity yields. Try locationg som ething stronger.
Inaki: what's the conc of your H2SO4?
Iaki March 19th, 2002, 07:13 AM

it was 98% (brown dark colour), but i m i x e d i n t h e s a m e proportion withwater and cool it, and then mix with the H2O 2 with
acetone, now at a lower percentage so the acid didnt hot the solution. If not, the nearly pure acid mixed with the solution m a y
reach fifty degrees easily. Hey, if using HCl in 25%, sho u l d I u s e a b i g g e r proportion?than k s e v e r y o n e

I use 30% HCl when m a k i n g A P . I h a v e a s t a n d a r d r e c i p e I u s e : 2 0 0 m l 35% H2O 2 300m l acetone and 10% acid(30% HCl).
from this I get 130g AP in 5 hours and then it's a solid m a s s . I y o u u s e 2 5 % H C l when m a k i n g A P w i t h 3 % H 2 O 2 I ' d u s e a b o u t
15-20% acid.

The odd thing here is not a lack of pre cipitate, but that a preciptate is forming an d disapp earing.
I'm not sure why, but your ratio of H2O2:acetone ratio is 2.1:20 so possibly the AP is dissolving in the excess aceto ne?
Allowing the m i x t o e v a p o u r a t e m a y m ake the AP recrystalise back out of solution.

Helvetica">So by using only 3%, it will probably also take 10 tim es as long for the reaction to occur.<hr /></
blockquote>As I already said, the reaction rate when using 3% H2O 2 c a n b e
k e p t a b o u t t h e s a m e a s w h e n u s i n g 3 0 % H 2 O 2 if you use ten tim es as much sulfuric acid.
Iaki March 21st, 2002, 11:49 AM

W e l l ! t h a n k s e v e r y o n e , a f e w d a y s a g o i a d d e d m ore acid and wait two or three days m ore, so now there is a white precipitate
(no m uch yield cause its only 3% but the most important is that it is there). Next tim e ill try with HCl :-)
NoltaiR March 21st, 2002, 07:22 PM

W hy not just spend a few hours boiling down a good am ount of H2O 2 to 1/10-1/13 of its original volum e and you won't have
to wait 2 or 3 days until your precipitate is done. (Especially if yo u are boiling it in a glass bowl at night when you just have
s o m e dim halogen lights on.. then once you are down to 1/10 the volume, pour it back in the original container--un c a p p e d - -
and leave it to cool down for the rest o f the night)
PYRO500 March 21st, 2002, 08:38 PM

That won't work.
NoltaiR March 21st, 2002, 09:43 PM

W hat do you m ean it won't wo rk??? I do it all the time with very satisfying results. I mean you can't expect to get 30% that
way.. but if you can pull at lea st 18-20% (you estimate about how pure it is by pouring it from one container into another.. the
H 2 O 2 will sta rt to foam a bit d epending on how pure it is) then you will m ake it a lot farther than 3%.
PYRO500 April 5th, 2002, 12:11 AM

if yo u get the water hot enough to boil the peroxide is probably decom posing too, if you got any increase in % it wa s very
s m a ll and yo u probably got a terrible yeild from the evaporating procedure, if you want to risk your life (lite rally) trying to distill
H 2 O 2 then read this page: <a href="http://webhome.id irect.com /~earlcp /Reports/Stills_199x.htm l" target="_blank">http://
webhom e.idirect.com /~earlcp/Reports/Stills_199x.htm l</a>
marky July 19th, 20 02, 05:4 2 AM

T h i s m ay not be the right place to ask but can AP disovle in water?
thanks
Eliteforum July 19th, 20 02, 05:5 0 AM

E R M . . P e o p l e S T O RE it in wate r, so I'd think not. And before you get banned, i'd just like to point out that your sig is wrong, it
should be:
"Fuck shootin im just tryin 2 knock his teeth ou t Fuck with me now bitch, lets see you freestyle!"
marky July 19th, 20 02, 05:5 8 AM

sorry but i dident kno w who to ask i kn ow people store it in water
but i thought they m ight just let it evaporate and they have there
AP again? :confused:
Anthony July 19th, 20 02, 08:5 1 AM

Everything is usually at least a little soluble in m ost things, if AP is soluble in water, it's not enough to worry about.
FarbrorBosse July 19th, 20 02, 05:1 3 PM

Iaki wrote: Hi! The day before yesterday I trie d to m ake a little bit of AP.
I u s e d p u r e a c e t o n e 3 % H 2 O 2 a n d H 2 S O 4 in water,
"more or less" 7 parts H2O2, 2 parts a cetone a nd 1 of sulfuric.
T h e n t h e r e w a s a b o u t 7 l i n e s o f n o t n e e d e d i n f o t o h e l p a n d a 3 line quote.
Answer:
7 parts? How about adding a little m ore info into the post?
Thin gs like "gram, ml cm ^3 and such are appreciated a n d n o t
that hard to figure even if you go in 6:th grade.
All you need is this little plastic or m etal container m a d e f o r b a k i n g .

This little cooking artifact contain 1.0dl(100m l) when full norm ally
or 0.5dl(50m l) if your m other has the sm aller version.
If you want to transfe r ml to g ram , just m ultiply by the density o f the

m ixture you got, since density is g/cm^3 heureka!.
O k n o w t o m a k e a n y c a l c u l a t i o n I n e e d t o m a k e a n a s s u m ption, and tha t m e a n s g u e s s i n g . I g u e s s y o u u s e d y o u r f a t h e r s

sperrin crystal cognac glass orderd from Czec republic to m ake your batch, and a bowl.
You used 7 glass of 3% H2O2 and 2 glass of 100% acetone and 1 glass of H2SO4.
1 glass contain exactly 125 ml.
So you used a paper and a pencil and recalculated some to get the right values.
7 g l a s s o f 3 % H 2 O 2 * 125 ml = 875m l 3% H2O2.
2 g l a s s o f 1 0 0 % a c e t o n e * 1 2 5 m l = 250m l 100% acetone.
1/3 glass of 98% H2SO4 ==> 125/3= 41.6666666 ~= 42 m l 98% H2SO4.
Sum mary: 875m l 3% H2O2 + 250ml 1 00% C3H6O ==> X g C 6 H 1 8 O 3 + Y g H 2 O .
8 7 5 m l 3% H2O2 will react with 84 ml 100% C3H6O creating ~80gram ATCP and ~19.5g water.
And you will also have 166ml unreacted acetone able to s o l v e a b o u t 8 3 m l A T C P .
Your H2SO 4 conc will be pretty low to, taking it that you first added 2 times water, then about 5 tim e s m ore water from the
H 2 O 2 bottle.
See why you get noth ing from it? Hint: 166m l acetone will solve about 83ml ATCP .
marky July 24th, 20 02, 06:2 1 PM

R e m ember not to use AP and metal containers the AP will corrode ...
Bye

m arky i believe you are wrong . AP does not corrode metal containers. HMTD however does corrode them . if there is any doubt
in your m ind as to wh ether you are right or not indicate that in your post so as no t to provide false information.
xtreme July 25th, 20 02, 08:5 6 AM

If I detonate AP not within a few hours....I allways insulate AP (all explosives in m y case) from metals.....just to be sure
(rem aining a cids in AP....what ever)
I let AP NEVER touch cupper/brass because they are so sensitive for a lot of chem icals (even your sweat from your h ands what
contains acid s too) And cupper reacts pretty fast with acids.
So....if you n ot 100% sure.....insulate explosives from m etals.

It's isn't m uch work and it give's me a better feeling for storing explosives over longer tim e (blasting caps).
<sm all>[ July 25, 2002, 08:54 AM: Me s s a g e e d i t e d b y : x t r e m e ]
ALENGOSVIG1 July 25th, 20 02, 12:5 7 PM

If you properly washe d the explosive and its not incom patible with metals by nature, (picric acid for exam ple) then contact with
m etal isnt a problem .
FarbrorBosse July 25th, 20 02, 05:2 0 PM

If m ade right AP is not that sensitive... It is very sensitive compared to ANFO or RDX for sure! but if you com pare to what you
get when dealing with iodine.. well then AP is dam n reliable.
W h e n s o m e of you guys talk about AP it pretty much rem i n d s m e o f w h e n s o m e o f m y bigger friends(when I was alot younger)
s h o w e d m e h o w t o m a k e e x p l o s i v e . T h e y u s e d i o d i n e c r y s t a l s , c r u s h e d t h e m to a powder and let it react with am m o nia until
the iodine was all black, then let it dry overnight. The next m orn ing there was a b roken bottle on the table and it was all
colored in pink. Now that is an e x p l o s i v e
t h a t h a s s o m e unreliable properties.
[edit]:spellin g
<sm all>[ July 25, 2002, 04:27 PM: Me ssage edited by: FarbrorBosse ]</sm all>
marky July 26th, 20 02, 04:2 9 AM

Yes but would you really wont to store AP in a metal container consitering if it wen t off??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]"
src="eek.gif" /> :confused: <img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />
xoo1246 July 26th, 20 02, 10:2 7 AM

Since AP doe sn't react with m etals when stored properly it could be done. Fragmentation from a m etal container is another
chapter.
Last I checked AP wasn't suita ble to store anyway.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Vitamin C and AP
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View Full Version : Vitamin C and AP
nbk2000 March 27th, 2002, 12:10 PM

Since I'm doing spring cleaning, and have nothing better to do, I'm going to see if you can make AP using vitamin C as the acid catalyst.
I just mixed (8 AM PST) 1/3 cup of generic nailpolish remover (acetone, water, glycerine, dye) with 2/3 cup of 12% H2O2 and added 1 teaspoon of C.P. vitamin C (ascorbic
acid) to the mix. It's sitting in the fridge as we speak so we'll see if it does anything.

is asorbic acid organic? AP can only be made with mineral acids. maybe this would work with HMTD

yer, i agree with madog555. not that i've tried it though, but i have read many times that mineral acid is required for AP but not HMTD. so, in theory no reaction should take
place as ascorbic is an organic acid. but still this will be interesting to dispute or prove that organic acids cannot be used for AP.
nbk2000 March 27th, 2002, 07:14 PM

Well, it's been 7 hours in the freezer and I've got nothing but ice to show for it, so I guess organic acids are no good.
Oh well, worth a try just to find out for sure, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

definately, i don't think anyone had actually tried it to test.
its these little useful scraps of knowledge and knowhow that help make this place as good as it is.

NBK, I can probably tell you why it didn't work:
Ascorbic acid in aqueous solution is readily oxidized by air -and even faster by hydrogen peroxide!- to dehydroascorbic acid.
Dehydroascorbic acid is practically neutral: no acid - no reaction - no AP.
(Ascorbic acid is a well-known antioxidant.)
nbk2000 March 27th, 2002, 09:00 PM

True, but it's never good to assume something will (or won't) work without actually testing it first.
At least we now know for sure that it doesn't work.
Perhaps its anti-oxidant property could be used after making it in the regular manner for some useful purpose. After all, it is a fuel for an oxidizer in VitC propellant.
PYRO500 March 28th, 2002, 03:33 AM

something I want to know is if AP would work with stomach acid, for the desprate

Yes, it would (stomach acid is hydrochloric acid). I can't help but chuckle when imagining the sight of someone vomiting into a beaker of acetone and hydrogen peroxide...
Yi March 28th, 2002, 06:05 AM

If ascorbic acid is oxidised and neutralised quickly in aqueous solution of H2O2 then it would not explain why it works for HMTD.

But no-one has said it does work for HMTD...
Alchemist March 28th, 2002, 10:56 AM

Hello all,
Recently I got some Tin from a school chemistry teacher and made both SnCl4 and SnCl2. I used these as the catalyst for AP instead of acid as discribed in the FTP paper "a bit
of info on AP". It produced about 1.5 to 3 times as much AP as with the acid catalyst. It does NOT say so in the paper, but I am also thinking about trying Ferric Chloride and
maybe Aluminum Chloride since both are Cl3. Just a thought.
Have fun!!!

I understand that ascorbic acid will oxidize too readily to be useful... but what exactly is it about organic acids that make them ineffective for AP?
Yi March 28th, 2002, 02:03 PM

Mr Cool, I was just wondering why does citric acid work as catalyst for HMTD if it doesn't for AP. i.e. if the acid is oxidised and the solution neutralised, there won't be any H+
ions to work as catalyst. For either case this should mean that the reaction will not occur (very fast anyway). Sorry if there was some confusion.
Alchemist, I used SnCl2.2H2O and I got very very bad results...did you the same method as on the paper? The method I used is described in the Tetrameric thread.
nbk2000 March 28th, 2002, 03:14 PM

Drink the acetone/peroxide mix, then approach the school bully and DARE HIM to punch you in the belly. Solves two problems in one blow :D
Is someone going to try making HTMD using ascorbic (Vitamin C) instead of citric acid? That should be next on the agenda.

I was under the impression that this would be futile, since aqueous solutions of ascorbic acid oxidize (by themselves) very quickly... making them useless for either reaction,
regardless of the organic/mineral acid issue. Of course, theory and reality are two different beasts...

i think the more important question here is why do only mineral acids work for AP?
as Zambosan said, it must be something to do with the chemistry of hexamine and acetone. this should inturn lead onto us having a much greater undertsanding of WHY the
reaction occurs and possible ways to improve it.

The explanation is simple, in acidic environment hexamine starts to decompose into formaldehyde and ammonia. This is why you use organic acids, they are usually weaker
and don't form reactive ions in solution like mineral acids do.
Acetone is a ketone, which means it's already oxidized and is therefore more resistant.

thanks vulture! now it all makes sense :D
Yi March 30th, 2002, 06:36 PM

Ahh, excellent.
Zambosan April 1st, 2002, 12:32 PM

Thanks vulture!
vulture April 2nd, 2002, 03:28 AM

Theoretically it should work.
But acetic acid is a lot weaker acid than citric acid and maybe it's oxidized or destroyed by the hydrogen peroxide since it's a flammable liquid and citric acid isn't.
BTW, about the decomposition of hexamine in acidic environment, i believe the ammonia which is formed reacts with the anorganic radicals ( SO4, Cl, ...) of mineral acids,
thereby moving the equilibrum more to the right.
[ April 02, 2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > sulfuric acid from sulfur flour
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View Full Version : sulfuric acid from sulfur flour
woo-jong June 7th, 2002, 09:58 AM

I wonder whether m y theory is correct or not
My theory :
S+O 2 --------> SO2
when sulfur burns(reacts with oxygen), sulfur dioxide is formed
and this gas dissolves in water and m a k e s s u l f u r o u s a c i d
SO2+H2O ------> H2SO3
sulfurous acid is deco mposed by electrolysis
H2SO 3 ---electrolysis---> H2 +SO3
sulfur trioxide makes sulfuric acid with water.
SO3+H2O ------> H2SO4
is m y theory correct? if there is some mistake, please tell me about m y m i s t a k e . a n d I m a y b e h a v e s o m e m i s t a k e i n m y

English ,too because I'm Korean perso n
<sm all>[ June 07, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: ALENGO SVIG1 ]
imported_reodor_felgen June 7th, 2002, 02:09 PM

I don't think electolyse of sulfurous acid would yield sulfuric acid.
you could try to burn sulfur an d then convert the SO2 created too SO3 via an cata lyst like iron oxid e or platinum. yo u should
apply strong heat too the catalyst and then lead the SO 3 into water.
ALENGOSVIG1 June 7th, 2002, 03:06 PM

I think this m ay have been discussed before but im not sure. This thread is in the wrong section and you double po sted. <img
Either figure out how we opera te around here or you'll get banne d. :m a d :
I m h o p i n g s o m ething good will come out f this thread so im not going to close it.
Moving to chem istry related.
<sm all>[ June 07, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: ALENGO SVIG1 ]

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Fuse??
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VX November 19th, 2001, 02:13 AM

This is my first post, bear with me.
Where can I obtain fuse from in the UK.

I did a search for this (several actually) to find it recommended that I should try Skylighter, Firefox, and Pyrotek... so I did,
Skylighter will not export fuse at all (anymore?), Firefox are getting back to me and Pyrotek don't state anything on their site,
and have yet to contact me.
However I am going to have a problem if non of them will supply me, anyone got any ideas,
Does anyone know if you can purchase fuse in THIS country, without a license?
Thanks in advance for any reply,

VX
------------------
Just do it! Carefuly!!
[This message has been edited by VX (edited 11-26-2001).]
J November 19th, 2001, 02:54 AM

As far as I know, you can't buy anything at a reasonable price. Do a search for HFM Pyrotechnics (the link's here somewhere),
they sell some expensive stuff.
The only real option is to make your own. If someone can prove me wrong, please do!
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)

Skylighter used to sell it but they pussied out and don't export anymore.
For homemade fuse, try a search on the KMnO4/silicon fuse that someone here (sorry can't remember who) created.
VX November 19th, 2001, 10:16 AM

I was hoping you wouldn't say that. But thanks anyway, any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.
------------------
Just do it! Carefuly!!
DarkAngel November 19th, 2001, 12:02 PM

I once called a pyro show company and said that im into model rocketry and needed to have fuse insteed of electronic
igniters.
They said: "sure whe sell,,(he said some types they sold)"
Than he asked me if i had somekind of license i said that i didn't had one than he said that you need one in order to buy
fuse he gave me a number and said that i needed to call that number and they would probably gave you one if you say your
into rocketry.
But as i already have fuse (from another member) and im not 18 yet i didn't whan't to call the number and ask if i could get
one.
------------------
arkAngel

mark November 19th, 2001, 02:07 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/on/pyrotechnicalities/index.html
Lots of how toos on making fuse.
Anthony November 19th, 2001, 03:14 PM

You don't need any license to buy fuse in the UK. The pyro suppliers just like to make you jump through hoops instead,
usually with minimum quantities of a case of reels. Smallest quantity I knew of for sale (besides HFM) was a 100m reel for
about 70.
Legally, you do not need a license to shoot a fireworks display of any size (including public displays), it's also perfectly legal to
string commercial fireworks together with fuse. So there's no reason why they can demand some kind of pyro license. If you
are ok with it, then it's probably best to phone a few pyro companies and see if they'll sell you a reel as none I've seen
advertise fuse on their website.
SafetyLast November 20th, 2001, 02:26 PM

I am 17 and in the US and I have never had any problems with ordering my fuse through the mail from Pyrotek.
Their price is $4 for 10ft. and $1 S&H they got it to me in about 2 weeks after I sent away for it. They sell a large variety of
fuse and I think that they will export to the UK.
heres the link http://www.pyrotek.org/cgi/newCataloger.cgi
only problem is that the picture shows green fuse (side spit) and they actually ship you red fuse (end spit) but that isn't really
a problem as it is just as reliable (fuse is fuse as long as it works right).
DarkAngel November 21st, 2001, 12:56 AM

You do need a lincense here in Holland there very tough about anything related to pyro certainly after the Enschede disaster
(Firework warehouse catched fire=Neighbour hood destroyed)
In other country's it's normall to launch rockets ,since last year i only saw people doing it on discovery channel :)
but now i know a few stores that sell estes products.
------------------
arkAngel

Madog555 November 22nd, 2001, 05:48 AM

i recently bought 100ft of fuse from pyrotek along with some other pyro goddies
------------------
"True freedome is not without anarchy"
jamamee December 15th, 2007, 06:25 PM

I know this thread is long since dead but I thought some might find this link useful:
http://www.hobbychem.co.uk/
they only ship to the UK and sell fuses among other things.
totenkov December 25th, 2007, 05:38 PM

Well I cant imagine that would be overly helpful to those who don't live in the UK.
Better to to try these guys:
http://www.pyroplanet.co.uk/
I live in Canada and it is damn hard to find fuse anywhere. I have bought numerous times with fast shipping and no
problems. They ship to the US Canada and the UK.
I am stocking chems because they are already disappearing off the shelves a little quick for my liking.
Jacks Complete January 2nd, 2008, 11:24 AM

Still useful for those here.
The UK version of the pyroplanet site is useless - better to go directly to www.xtremesurvival.co.uk who deal with the UK
distribution.
Emil January 2nd, 2008, 02:57 PM

Hobby chem actually used to sell more than they do now. I was quite dissapointed when they re vamped their site and stated
they would not be selling things like Ammonium nitrate, Ammonium perchlorate and other things. But as for fuse they still sell
that at least.
Charles Owlen Picket January 2nd, 2008, 07:07 PM

I had a chance once to look at different fuse through a light-strength magnification microscope (30x) and noticed several
things.
High-quality visco made by Hogden (the powder mfg.) had a very finely defined core of BP and really looked well made.
Chinese fuse (in addition to having less of a NC lacquer coating) appeared to be very crude. The "core", if you could call it
that, appeared to be "twisted in" to the body of the fuse.
Now, if what I saw is any indicator, there may be several design of machines for fuse. Where I'm going here is that I have
seen the "spools of thread" machine that has a trough to drip in BP as a core.
But I have been "told" of another machine that is much more simplistic, used often in china (and other Asian countries). I am
trying to get more information on this simplistic machine. And, of course, I will share what I know as I get a firm hand on it.
Anyone know anything about machines on a professional level; the names, who sells them, etc....Please share.
gaussincarnate January 2nd, 2008, 08:54 PM
Here's a few:
http://www.chinafireworks.net/machine/index.htm
(chinese fuse machines, rather confusing website)
Link below does not work, but gives you an idea of where to look
http://www.fireworkstown.com/memProductDtls.asp?Id=84&pId=670
(Not fuse making per se, but might work)
DIY plans
http://www.truetex.com/turner_visco.pdf
Bert January 3rd, 2008, 12:01 AM

There are quite a number of YouTube videos of visco fuse making machines. These range from home made, yet very
professional:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf7Xb7PbK8c
To home made, apparently by teenagers with cruder but still effective workmanship...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1NytwLUYCA
To video of Chinese factory machines and practices:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIyjZcfKjjU
Several videos are tutorials on building, others have links to such. Just search YouTube for "visco fuse" I'm pleased to see the
number of people who have been able to manufacture workable machines. I'll be even happier to see 1/4" safety fuse
machines produced by hobby pyrotechnists. Only needs 3 more stations on the machine... Tar, paper wrap, a 3rd wrap of
thread or cloth tape and you'd have it!
Double-Oh-Zero January 3rd, 2008, 06:29 AM

Does anyone maybe know a place that will sell chemicals, fuse etc. here in South Africa? I have been looking, but the southern
tip of the dark continent is not very yielding. Unfortunately the exchange rate is not too kind, so importing is out of the
equation.
Thanks for the help...
parabolic January 6th, 2008, 03:34 PM

Bert,
I also recently stumbled on those videos on youtube, I have seen many photos of the machines in the videos before, but
never seen them running, until last week. They are great to watch.
strongwbow January 28th, 2008, 06:14 PM

Sorry Mate. Her Majesty takes a dim view of such things being easy to purchase in the UK. However there are several
companies in the Channel Islands operating under Royal aegis that deal in it. Fuse is a simple item but can cause a LOT of
complications in the wrong hands.
schotti January 31st, 2008, 03:21 AM

I live in Denmark and i order my canon fuse (viscos) at http://www.pyroplanet.co.uk/
wihtout any problems
Ratman2050 January 31st, 2008, 08:05 AM

SWIM ordered his from pyrocreations.com There shipping is cheaper than cannonfuse's.
Charles Owlen Picket January 31st, 2008, 09:35 AM

SWIM ordered his from pyrocreations.com There shipping is cheaper than cannonfuse's. I once heard some seriously negative
things about the later company; very little bad about the former. I think you did well in your acquisition.
Ratman2050 January 31st, 2008, 06:36 PM

Well, they just sent me the shipping info so I will see how it comes.
Silentnite February 19th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Do they have gun/knife/hunting shows in the UK or is it pretty scarce? That's where I like to pick up some fuse, its not the
greatest quality and it can be expensive, but cash is a nice way to do business. Otherwise I'm searching for a reliable source
around my area.
peppovsky February 23rd, 2008, 09:30 AM

Not relevant to the professional fuse issue, I did lately began experimenting with Nitrocellulose fuses (since I'm pretty
enthusiastic as of late for nitrocellulose in general...).
I went and bought some shoelaces (round and white - round for the cotton string inside, white as for minimal amount of dye...
see this image for example: http://www.choiceful.com/prod_image/61277_m.jpg), next the endings were cut, the cotton string
was pulled out, soaked in Hexane (for a couple of hours) then evaporated and soaked in Acetone (again, for 2 hours), then
evaporated* and nitrated with the well known 50/50 by vol (98%)H2SO4/(68%)HNO3 mixture.
5 ml of the nitrating acid mix is enough for a whole lace, which is about 16.5'' long.
It burns quite fast, about 5-7'' a second, but it has almost no residue, and it ignites black powder and flash powder, for what
I've tried so far.
...And it's damn cheap, too ;)
Now I know what you are all thinking - "Why not just buy the cotton string itself and waste money on short shoelaces?". I
agree, and that's my next move... I just happened to walk by a shoe store the other day when the idea and urge stroke me,
then went back home and experimented. Success is always fun :)
(*The Hexane/Acetone soaking was done as to make sure any polyester/plastic remains are dismiss, since it could degrade
the quality of the product. I'm not actually sure if there are any of these materials there, but better safe then sorry...)
Charles Owlen Picket February 23rd, 2008, 09:55 AM

Cotton string fuse is not as simplistic as many have been lead to believe on first blush. There are ways to make this basic
concept reach new ground. I have done some experimenting with this back in the the day and have some notes of an
experiment that is relevant to topic from a generalized perspective.
CORE-LESS FUSE
The introduction of oxidizer-fuel deflagerant intimate mixture to the fibers of raw cotton via solution adhesion.
EXAMPLE:
A fuse may be developed by the use of pure cotton string as a base on which to use a super saturated solution of an oxidizer
and fuel. The concept is that with both an oxidizer and fuel in solution, they would saturate the cotton fibers in a manner that
could not be duplicated with a wound core fuse. Actually an improvement on the typical burning core implementation of the
visco type.
Whether this is a viable technique or a stop-gap measure used for improvisation is debatable. If enough time and thought is
placed in this concept, it may actually be an improvement on the visco type fuse. It certainly functions as effectively when
enough time is take with its manufacture. The concepts themselves are logical and empirical evidence shows that fuse made
with these techniques stand up to use factors as well as Visco type fuse. Fuse made with these techniques also appear to burn
with the consistency of commercial fuse; given that enough time and care is taken in its preparation.
The end result may also be coated with NC lacquer (as typical Visco fuse) prior to drying.
-> The concepts are simple. The carrier is a solvent that both the oxidizer and fuel will reach solution in. That solvent is
applied in a saturation to a PURE COTTON string element. This basic element cannot be over stated to be important to the
overall functionality of the fuse. It must be pure cotton and have absolutely NO additives what so ever.
From that point the saturation of the oxidizer and fuel is essentially part of the cellulose fibers of the cotton. The cotton is NOT
used as a fuel in this concept, even those it would become so upon burning. It would be separate as the material that forms
the deflagerant component (oxidizer/fuel mix) is made to mix so intimately that the burn rate is thus controlled. Once more:
if the cotton threads are made to play the role of fuel, the mix will not be intimate enough to maintain consistency and
controllability via ratios & proportions.
What solvents were used was a material that allowed the saturated solution of both as well as functioned as a carrier agent.
Alcohols were settled upon as acetone did not function that well with both fuel and oxidizers in many cases. The solvent choice
is a critical area obviously.
The oxidizers of choice were the chlorates. Even though they maintain many issues, they have enough oxygen to warrant the
bother. Permanganates were also evaluated but the concept of solution for both had introduced a few issue with the use of
permanganates. Nitrates simply did not produce enough oxygen for this concept. The oxidizer choice has to release an
enormous amount of oxygen.
The fuels were a bit of a problem. Metal fuels would not go into solution. Metal salts posed issues with the chlorates. However
some metal salts appears to offer promise. Copper, which offered a great many issues with chlorates, did function even as
sulfates; but long term safety consideration precluded their use on any extended basis. It appears after some testing that
organic resin in solution with chlorates posed the best compromise between safety and performance and long term reliability.
In this concept the resin used with shellac (insect based) profession pyrotechnic resin sourced by quality from a wood working
vendor as the price from pyro suppliers was much too high and the quality was not what it could be. The resin went in to
solution with alcohol very well. The chlorates went into solution and thus a saturated solution of fuel & oxidizer would exist,
mixed as intimately as possible. It would then be introduced into the cotton fibers by simply soaking at an elevated temp
(near boil 80C) and allowed to dry after the string was run through a device o squeeze the excess from the cellulose material.
What was left was a near original looking cotton string that was bendable and had no caking on its exterior.
There are other elements o the fuel concept of introduction into a pre-existing string. Single micron sized metal fuel CAN be
carried into the fibers! The type of material available for this does exist. It is Ekhart 5413 INK GRADE ALUMINUM. This is
extremely expensive Al that is no larger than 2um and exists as air float in its bulk level. Its cost is near prohibitive
(approx. $30 a pound in bulk). And nearly impossible to buy as the company sells INK not its component parts (Ekhart makes
the Al for its own consumption but has sold the Al in the past at a huge profit). This level of metal fuel will float within the
solution and be carried into the string so long as the solution is not allowed to settle. It will also NOT be easily transferred out
by manipulation or stress as it is so small it can attach to the fiber themselves. But this is a unique grade of metal fuel and
its equivalent in Magnesium, copper, tin, iron, or nickel does not frequent the commercial market. Fuel/reducing agents were
also experimented with such as sulfur, and sodium benzoate [C6H5COONa] Both of which reduced the level of ignition temp
and controlled the level of flame spit. Metal fuels may be utilized but as an adjunctive, not primary choice. They must be
single micron sized and sub-micron particulate.
Some of the following are compositions utilized with varying degrees of success. NOTE: all were successful. Some successful in
the extreme making this a viable fuse technique that would quite literally function as a professional alternative. The criteria
were very high for functionality. The completed fuse has to reliably burn consistently and stand up to near abusive
manipulation. This concept works well.
1.)
KCLO3 70%
RESIN 30%
2.)
***KCLO3 60%
***RESIN 30%
***Al 10%
3.)
###KCLO3 60%
###RESIN 30%
###Lead Acetate 10%
4.)
~~~KCLO3 70%
~~~RESIN 30%
~~~Sodium Benzoate 10%
{adjunctive}
copper acetate
copper sulfate
Were all attempted on a short term basis due to coppers effect with chlorates. The testing was made in efforts to test metal
salts. The safety issues with copper, sulfates, etc, etc were very much on the author's mind and these materials were utilized
as experiments on a short term only to evaluate metal salts, etc.
At this point I do not believe that this is improvisation on an old theme, but new stuff. This concept DOES create a reliable,
workable time fuse that maintains consistent burn rates and has strength beyond that of Visco's problem with bending. The
above is a concept, albeit a very viable one. but the overall element of placing oxidizer-fuel into the core of the cellulose
prevents the bending to ruin the powder train. The whole of the finished product may be coated with NC lacquer for additional
strength and bending will not alter burn rate when completed as illustrated. Dates on this were my own from 1999-01. Some
material was taken from EPP '00 TTBoMK.
Ethyl February 23rd, 2008, 01:05 PM

I used a much simpler version of fuse similar to the fuse described in the post above. I made a saturated solution of sodium
nitrate, soaked a cotton string in it and dried it in the oven (not above 100 C as the fuse may ignite). The resulting fuse is
flexible but not very (bending it too much causes the sodium nitrate to crack). It is hygroscopic and should be stored in a
airtight container. I used it successfully a few times (it never failed for me). Wrapped in Al foil it burned in very moist ground. I
don't remember the exact burn rate but it burned very slow.

The materials tested to reach the conclusions therein were several dozen, I believe many things were tried to reach the
conclusion that chlorate/Resin (with perhaps an enhancement fuel also) were close to ideal choices. The performance of the
above is really quite impressive. There are drying and coating jigs for the use of NC lacquer coatings and fuel embedding that
can be made and utilized. but the concept, although simplistic superficially, is a solid one.
Not all people are aware that the flame spit from various fuses are different depending on construction / design. Some are
made to be stronger than others, shoot from the side as well as the end, etc. With a "core-less" fuse you may have less
options in that regard but there are some measures you can take to create an extremely hot burn if that is needed. However
the consistency and reliability are foremost. If that requirement is met; you have a useful tool.
Bacon46 February 24th, 2008, 10:38 AM

Cotton string fuse is not as simplistic as many have been lead to believe on first blush. There are ways to make this basic
concept reach new ground.
I have been toying with the same basic concept for a couple of months.
What got me thinking in that direction was I use a cotton cloth to filter crude KClO3 from processed electrolyte. I decided to
burn a piece of that material that had sat around long enough to dry out. I wadded it into a ball approximately six inches in
diameter and hit it with a propane torch. The resulting flash removed most of the hair from my left arm, one eyebrow and
some of the hair on the left side of my head. :o Really stupid move, but I thought the next time I fire up a chlorate cell I am
going to soak a ball of cotton string in the electrolyte and see if I can use it as a fuse.
I tested the theory by soaking some cotton string in a saturated solution of KClO3 but the result was a string that smoldered
and fizzled once in awhile. I then tried dusting the saturated string in 4-6 micron atomized aluminum but the results were not
much better. I am not sure why the electrolyte worked so much better, maybe it was the cotton fiber itself. There was a small
amount (2g per liter) of K2CrO7 in the electrolyte but I wouldn't think that would make that much difference. I intend on
pursuing it further as soon as I have some time. I may add sucrose or dextrose to the solution.
This type of fuse may be okay for bottle rockets and firecrackers but it will never match the performance a visco type fuse
under water or underground. My objective is to use it as Quick Match.
By the way; I purchased 6kg of 4-6 micron atomized aluminum on Ebay for $130.00 US including shipping. It makes incredible
flash powder.
totenkov February 24th, 2008, 12:45 PM

Yes 4-6 micron is the sweet spot for good flash....however are you opening up a flash factory?!
Charles Owlen Picket February 24th, 2008, 12:57 PM

There is a basic issue of extremely intimate (in saturation) mix of oxidizer/fuel. If both go into solution they can both (upon
drying) combine within the fiber of raw cotton. The cotton is not used as the fuel in this instance as it would not have the
immediacy in deflagration to provide burn-rate consistency. I believe that if coated with NC lacquer in a professional manner it
MAY even burn under water!
When setting up a drying jig, there are methods to provide for a consistent coating of NC lacquer on the same level as Visco.
I'm not talking about "fast, fun get-it-done" stuff here, but a high quality effort with quality materials. the basic concept really
does work better than could be explained in words. HERE IS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR A VIDEO...
Since the CPSC efforts there has been a lot of selling of Al on Ebay. One fellow who I knew back some years back told me an
interesting story. He said that people are selling mixed lots and carbon-cut lots of Al powder to cheat the consumer on Ebay.
What some "profit oriented" individuals have done was mix paint grade with high end Al together. This is still VERY reactive but
allows for a huge profit margin. Others are selling an "Indian Black" that is really a mid-level quality Al that has some
lampblack (for weight, color & reactivity) in it. This also makes a VERY reactive aluminum that costs very little. The only way
the buyer can tell is to use a microscope.
I hope you did well on Ebay. The product is most likely fine....But I am always suspicious of that place. I always thought that if
it seems too good to be true it probably is.
Bacon46 February 24th, 2008, 05:52 PM

Yes 4-6 micron is the sweet spot for good flash....however are you opening up a flash factory?!
No I m no t opening a flash factory.:) I use it in star, fountain, sp arkler and other va rious compositions . I bou ght so m uch
because I got way mo re bang for the b uck by b uyin g larger quantities. I figure I ll use it eve ntually.
There is a basic issue of extremely intimate (in saturation) mix of oxidizer/fuel. If both go into solution they can both (upon
drying) combine within the fiber of raw cotton. The cotton is not used as the fuel in this instance as it would not have the
immediacy in deflagration to provide burn-rate consistency.
Makes sense; I will do another saturated solution and add dextrose as a fuel.
I would love to he ar some ideas on a fuse co ating process. It s n ot so much applyin g the coating as it is getting the coating
to dry before it hits the take-up spool.
I have started designing a visco fuse winding machine and coating the fuse efficiently in bulk lengths is one of the issues I am
having a hard time with. At this point I think I will do the fuse winding and coating in two separate operations using two
different machines.
I try not to do anyth ing ha lf-ass if I can h elp it, but some situations require either loads of mo ney I do nt have, or some
improvisation. One way of drying the coating quickly that comes to mind, is to run the fuse past a bank of commercial heat
guns. They put out a lot of heat and in an emergency or unexpected stop they would not ignite the fuse.
I have attached a 3-D model of the visco wind ing machine I am working on. It s incomplete but will give you an idea of the
quality of machine I intend to build. I would appreciate any input people may have on that as well.
The guy I get the aluminum from is not a pyrotechnic supplier. He specializes in powdered metals for industrial use. This is
the third time I have bought from him and so far no problems but I too am very careful when shopping on Ebay.

I think I will buy a really nice camera or video camera soon so I can put some pictures up. I agree that it's best to do whatever
you can not to do anything half ass. The coating of the fuse is not too complicated but the device needs to maintain a
consistent level of material as the string is drawn through.
Simply making a device that has an opening to wipe the excess NC off the base material is sufficient IF the NC is thick. But
consistency is really what it's all about. Just like rifle accuracy is all about consistency, burn rate modifiers and coatings have to
have the uniform level of volume measurement maintained from one inch to another. The best way to do that is to have the
NC lacquer pretty thick (25%+).
A device that would work is something akin to a fishing reel. Picture a reel inside a container holding the lacquer. The string
peeks through a hole the wipes the circumference of the string as it's drawn through the NC. This could be done by hand of
course and just pull the string through a hole in a plate that wipes the string of excess. The key to uniformity is to have the NC
lacquer thick so that it does not run. The device may be of less importance than the lacquer itself.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > KMnO4 Flash-Powder
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View Full Version : KMnO4 Flash-Powder
xoo1246 June 8th, 2002, 12:14 PM

I have made KMnO4 in my dreams a couple of times. This far I have made sulfurless. What I was thinking of was the ratios. What is the formula for the reaction between the
Al and the KMnO4?
I did a try on my paper and it looks like this:
3KMnO4 + 2 Al --> Al2O3 + 3KO2 + 3MnO
But when I calculate the ratios in weight the percentages looks very odd in comparation with the ratios generally accepted.
Question: Is my formula totaly messed up or is it correct but most of the Al in ordinary flash after-burns in air?
Thanks in advance.
Edit: Another thing, has anyone tried Ti flakes/powder in flash or other compositions, I was thinking of getting some.
[ June 08, 2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]
BrAiNFeVeR June 8th, 2002, 12:36 PM

I use the 3:2:1 (KMnO4:Al:S) method and it works fine for me, but most recipe's are heavily over-fueled.
I think it depends on the brightness of the flash you want.
For the good old noise makers, I'd use stochiometric + 5 % Al, because some fuel is allways oxidised by the surrounding air ...
KMnO4 = 39.1 + 54.94 + 72 = 166.04

Al = 26.98
26.98/166.04 = 0.162 gram Al per gram of KMnO4
+ 5% schould make 1.7 gram Al + 10 gram KMnO4.

As soon as I have my cam (sometime next week I hope) I'll try it out ...

Ok, finding the decomposition of KMnO4 reaction can cause something worse than a nitroheadache... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
But hey, here it is!
18 KMnO4 + 26 Al -> 6 Mn3O4 + 9 K2O + 13 Al2O3
158.03 * 18 = 2844.54
26.98 * 26 = 701.48
Brainfever, you made a little mistake there, to calculate the ratio you divide the weight of one compound through the weight of the total amount of all compounds:
(2844.5 / (2844.5 + 701.48)) * 100% = 80.22% KMnO4 and 19.78% Al.
For magnesium the equation is as follows:
12 KMnO4 + 26 Mg -> 4 Mn3O4 + 6 K2O + 26 MgO
Have fun calculating the reaction enthalpy!
xoo1246 June 8th, 2002, 05:30 PM

Your calculations looks ok, but does K2O exist?, I though potassium oxide was KO2. And there you sure only Mn3O4 is formed, there are:
Manganese(II)oxide
Manganese (III) oxide
and your Manganese(II,III) oxide.
But hey, I'm not educated at all when it comes to chemistry, I'm working on it.

I'm absolutely sure Mn3O4 is formed, MnO2 decomposes into it. The KMnO4 equation you see here is a multistep reaction which I brought together in one reaction.
And sure does K2O exist, K = +1, O = -2, go figure.
KO2 is potassium superoxide.
xoo1246 June 8th, 2002, 06:18 PM

Good.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />And sure does K2O exist, K =
+1, O = -2, go figure.<hr /></blockquote>Well, that's what I thought at first too, but my damn chemistry book
didn't even mention it when talking about oxides of potassium.

You posted the same damn thing in two seperate topics! And you've only got 2 posts!
:msd:
And no live chat. Been discussed a million times already and is explained in the FAQ if you had BOTHERED TO READ IT!
[ June 10, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
rikkitikkitavi June 10th, 2002, 01:49 PM

vulture, i read your reaction and one idea strikes me.
add more Mg!
K2O + Mg = 2K + MgO
Mn3O4 + 8K = 3Mn + K2O
flash turnes into thermite ...
But if one did this with NaMnO4 instead, the yellow colour of sodium would increase the flash?
/rickard
/rickard
[ June 10, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: rikkitikkitavi ]

Hmm, although it seems theoretically possible because of the high temperature the reaction requires is present, I doubt it would work.
Don't forget that K is a much stronger reductant than Mg.
If it all possible, I think this will only happen in a sealed container, that is a firmly closed metal object which can take loads of pressure and which won't melt.
rikkitikkitavi June 10th, 2002, 04:00 PM

no, actually Mg, Al and Ca are the strongest reductants at high temperatures.
K has been produced through Al-reduction. K can even be produced through reduction with carbon, but K(CO)n messes things up a bit :)
The high volatility of the alkalimetalls favours the redoxreaction too.
anyway, I think you are right. Would probably not work since the
flashpowder just "blows" the mixture apart.
/rickard
Rat Bastard June 14th, 2002, 02:21 AM

I just tried the acetone method for my KMnO4 flash, and it turned my flash powder from silver to goldish-brown colour.
What did I do wrong?

I guess that there is formed some Mno2(wich is dark brown-black and turned the Al into brown)
if it's burn well there's nothing to complain about <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
vulture June 14th, 2002, 10:21 AM

That's okay. It happens because the permanganate crystallizes inside Al and S grains. The Al and S give the goldish color while the permanganate creates the brownish color in
combination with that. It just indicates it's perfectly mixed.
MnO2 formation is impossible, because permanganate can't oxidize acetone.
[ June 14, 2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]

mine was sulphurless..
[ June 16, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

Anyways It burned quite nicely, so I guess I shouldn't complain.
I saw a pic where someone made some KMnO4 Flash-Powder withe the acetone method, and it was silver.
[ June 14, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

does anyone has a little video or something so i can see how fast the KMnO4 flash mix burns? ( i will make it myself when i have KMnO4 again)
if you make a little train of 20centimeters or something, how fast will it be gone? :confused:
(maybe a little kewl question, but i like to know)

A train of 20cm will be gone before you can even blink your eyes, possibly with a small bang.
[ June 15, 2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: vulture ]
mr.evil June 15th, 2002, 04:09 PM

wow! that's really fast :D
i can't wait 'till you've been in Brussels to get (my) chems Vulture, offcourse i will pay you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
(sorry for off topic, last post about this)
xoo1246 June 15th, 2002, 05:32 PM

I don't have a video camera but I have a couple of pictures showing flash going off. Check my ftp(look below)
zaibatsu June 15th, 2002, 08:40 PM

Cut your sig down rat bastard

I've just buyed a Digital Cam!! :)
WOW, that stuff is bright, how fine was your Al?
xoo1246 June 16th, 2002, 07:05 AM

That flash contained Al particles < 80um

This is miles ok,ok kilometers of what your now talking about but K20 is usally refered to as potassium superoxide in a chem book I own.

Potassium superoxide = potassium hyperoxide (official IUPAC name)= KO2. This is created when K2O (potassium oxide) is heated in O2 and is a very powerful oxidant.
The other oxides of potassium are:

K2O = potassium oxide, the normal oxide, looking at the oxidation states
K2O2 = potassium peroxide, powerful oxidizer (H2O2 and O2 formation with water)
K2O3 = potassium trioxide, which I don't have much info about
KO3 = potassium ozonide, formed by the reaction between ozone and K2O or KOH.
Old chemistry books usually use the super and hyper oxide notations in the wrong place. The info I present here is from a 2001 chemistry encyclopedia.

I have always made my KMnO4 flash without sulphur as I make my flash out of KMnO4 and Mg powder.This is a pretty powerful mix and I'm not sure if I want to add sulphur
incase it makes the mix too sensitve.I was just wondering if anybody has any pictures of this mix burning at all?
inFinie October 20th, 2006, 05:32 PM

Delayed starting of ignition by dropping glycerine is an interesting method to me.
And
K2O + Mg = 2K + MgO
Mn3O4 + 8K = 3Mn + K2O
Seems impossible in normal(physical) conditions to me since electronegativity of K is 0.82 and Mg is 1.31 on Pauling's scale, Mg will not reduce K2O to K. The other equation
seems possible but not in solid state maybe in liquid state, oxygenless medium.
Mn3O4 is afaik MnO.Mn2O3 ?

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Poor phone
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View Full Version : Poor phone
mark Novem ber 20th, 2001, 07:00 PM

W ow. Weird dream. I dream t that I inserted a 200 grain pyrodex craterm aker into a telephone and brought it to a friends
h o u s e . A s I s l u m bere d, the dream got weirder. I proced ed to throw the device into my friends garrage and slam the door.
Blam ! I woke up, and found these pictures on m y computer! http://www.geocities.com /waltherboom s t e d / d e a d p h o n e . h t m l
kingspaz D e c e m ber 24th, 2001, 07:27 PM

well done. its always good to see pictures because they describe what m illions of words can't. and they look g o o d !
what case did you use for the cratem a k e r ?
also do you know the exact chemicals in pyrodex? its black powder with burn catalysts isn't it? anybody know what these
catalysts are?
RTC D e c e m ber 24th, 2001, 09:55 PM

You might want to m ake the pictures into thum b's, as waiting for the page to load (which is over 3m b) takes a little longer
than m ost of us 56kers are prepared to wait.
------------------
W e h a v e a s s e m b l e d h e r e t o d a y t o t e a c h y o u a l l a l i t t l e l e s s o n . O n e c a n n ot rem ain on top for years while closing one's m ind to
the influence of others. I will demonstrate the true meaning of inovation for all you to see .
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 25th, 2001, 03:01 AM

That's why I've never seen the pictures. I just KNOW that they're .BMP pictures, correct? Nothing lik e h u g e o l ' h o n k i n g b i t m a p s
to suck up bandwidth. Like nobodies ever heard of .JPG.....
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
Anthony D e c e m ber 25th, 2001, 10:24 AM

If you get the properties of one of the partly loaded pictures, it says they are jpgs! They must have been * huge*, hardly
c o m p r e s s e d o n e s t h a t were fram ed down to a small size rather than actu ally redu ced?
RTC D e c e m ber 27th, 2001, 01:26 AM

Yea there JPEG's, and there about 760 kb EACH, if I were you m ark I would crop then down in size or use some kind of file
reduction program AC DSee is what I use and it cuts a 3m b . b m p file into like 30kb GIF.
------------------

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Napalm dilvery system
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View Full Version : Napalm dilvery system
Zyklon_B June 12th, 2002, 03:08 PM

Does anyone know a way to m a k e a n e x p l o s i v e d e v i c e t h a t s p r e a d s t h e n a p a l m b y e x p l o s i o n a n d t h e n i g n i t e s i t ? S o f a r a l l I
h a v e b e e n a b l e t o d o is m a k e t h e e x p losive put out the fire.
NoltaiR June 12th, 2002, 03:48 PM

h m m m .. FAE anyone? If you want to pull something like that off quickly with easy chems I would recomm end (well I always
recom m end this) wou ld be to fill a 20o z bottle with your napalm - - a s s u m ing you a ren't one of those kewls who think that
n a p a l m i s a m i x o f g a s o l i n e a nd styrofoam--and drop a charge of APrc in it, suspended by electrical leads with some sort of
ignition system on the charge. I would say a strand of steel wool ran through the charge a n d c o n n e c t e d b e t w e e n t h e l e a d s
would work well. Allow the system to set for 30 m i n u t e s o r s o t o l e t s o m e o f t h e n a p a l m c o m p o u n d soak into the charge.
This is all assum ing that your napalm doesn't dissolve the APrc. Oh well, I am going to try it out ju st because it sounds like it
could work.
xoo1246 June 12th, 2002, 04:08 PM

Thermite is a good starter for napalm . It will also pop/e x p l o d e a c l o s e d c o n t a i n e r o p e n s i n c e i t d e c o m p o s e s a n d v a p o r i s e s
s o m e of the fuel.
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 1 2 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 0 9 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : x o o 1 2 4 6 ] < / s m a l l >
inferno June 12th, 2002, 08:44 PM

I m a s s u m i n g y o u c l a s s i f y n a p a l m a s p etrol/polystyrene or soap flakes. If thats what you classify it as, try using a sparkler as
fuse into a spreading charge. A large firecracke r or small firework, ignited by a sparkler (burns very hot) will light the "napalm"
a n d t h e e x p l o s i o n f r m the spreading charge will shoot the "napa lm " in all directions.
Usin g BP for the spread charge (eg a firecracke r) will not be powerful eno ugh to blow out the stuff i dont think. Careful with
this, it will sp read fire in a reasonably large radius, and probably ignite any nearby combustibles, including grass and trees.
There are m uch better ways to am use yourself than kewl stuff like this
Zyklon_B June 13th, 2002, 01:45 AM

My napalm is gasoline mixed with soap flakes.
Anyways, will give all the above a try. Thanks alot.

Try using a spreader charge of Al or Mg flash with a low degree of confinement or coarse grains. This should give a high
therm al outp u t a n d s h o u l d n ' t s p r e a d t h e n a p a l m so violently thet it doesn't ignite ( or becomes so thinly spread that it burns
too fast ).
NoltaiR S e p t e m b e r 2 7th, 2002, 03:00 PM

And here is a big 'go screw yourself' to all those kewls who have always thought that napalm is mixture of styrofoam a n d
gasoline..
From <a href="http://www.fas.org/m a n / d o d - 1 0 1 / s y s / d u m b/mk77.htm" target="_blank">www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dum b/

m k77.htm</a>
Current military napalm is made of..

"Napalm is a m ixture of benzene (21%), gasoline (33%), and polystyren e ( 4 6 % ) . B e n z e n e i s a n o rm al com p o n e n t o f g a s o l i n e
( a b o u t 2 % ) . T h e g a s o l i n e u s e d i n n a p a l m i s t h e s a m e l e a d e d o r u n l e a d e d g a s t h a t i s u s e d i n a u t o m obiles.
Gasoline is a m ixture of hydrocarbons, which burn in an engine. It is a clear liquid, made from crude oil tha t burns and
e x p l o d e s e a s i l y . I t n a t u r a l l y c o n t a i n s s o m e b e n z e n e ( w h i c h m a k e s g a s s m ell the way it does). Gasoline is lighter than, and
floats on, water, but it will not mix with water. It dissolves grease and oil but will not dissolve polystyrene by itself, m o r e
benzene must be added to it. If gasoline is inhaled or swallowed, it can be dangerous or fatal. Breathing it results in an
intense burning sensation in the throat and lun gs, resulting in bronchitis and, eventually, pneum o n i a a n d p o s s i b l y d e a t h .
Swallowing gasoline results in inebriation (drunkenness), vomiting, dizziness, fever, drowsiness, co n f u s i o n , a n d c y a n o s i s ( b l u e
color).
B e n z e n e i s a light, co lorless, aromatic liquid m a d e f r o m a variety of raw m aterials, mostly crude oil and coal. In many ways it is
sim ilar to gasoline, of which it is a part. The m a j o r u s e s o f b e n z e n e a r e i n m aking plastics and oth er chem icals, not fuel,
although it could be used as one. If benzene is breathed or swallowed, it causes throat irritation, rest lessens, excitem ent,
depression, and, finally, convulsions, which can lead to death. A long exposure to b e n z e n e v a p o r s ( m o n t h s o r y e a r s ) l e a d s t o
b o n e m a r r o w d e p r e s s i o n a n d i n r a r e c a s e s , l e u k e m ia.
Polystyrene is the white, tough plastic that is used to make cups, plates, and other tableware and food containers. In the pu re
state it is slightly hea vier than water. It dissolves easily in acetone and b enzene, but not in gasoline. It is not poiso nous; if
swallowed it passes unchanged through the digestive tract. But it is possible to choke on it. Heated polystyrene softens at
about 185 F. At higher tem peratures it turns back into styrene, the chemical from which it was mad e . S t y r e n e h a s b e e n t e s t e d
as toxic to rats. In air, polystyrene melts and b urns with a yellow, sooty flame. Styrene itself has a sharp, unpleasant sm ell
that is easy to recognize. "

Napalm:
NA(phthenate), salt o f naphthenic acid (from naphthene) + PALM(itate)

Korfaction S e p t e m b e r 2 9th, 2002, 01:43 PM

Maybe there's no need to be angry about the way people m ake their napalm . Because napalm as used today are not the
o r i g i n a l o n e , t h e n a p a l m b e c o mes just a generic nam e for all these shits that burn for a very long time, and used in incendiary
devices.
And I know many ways to m a k e n a p a l m other than with styrofoa m. O ne m ay add soap or orange juice (it works, m aybe it's an
e x p e n s i v e m ethod though), m ineral oil. In a m ilitary com position I saw a recipe with som e Ti powder (for m o r e h e a t ) . ( M a y b e i
don't rem e m ber well ?).
By the way, styrofoam is just some polystyrene foam, it's about the same thing b ut forming bubbles. W hy they on fas.org that
polystyrene is not solvable in pure gazoline is because of its higher density, it dissolves slowly. Then styrofoan just has the
advantage of dissolving without adding benzene.
Of course it doesn't m e a n t h a t t h e m e t h o d y o u recognize as the only one acceptable is not the best now, b ut the principle is
the sam e, and everyone doesn't have benzene easily.
[EDIT]: Obscure content clarified
<sm all>[ September 29, 2002, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Korfaction ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Azide
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Ok, I just received 100 g of Soium Azide 99% and I would like to make some Lead Azide (ofcourse !)
Firstly, when you're adding the 2 solutions (of sodium a z i d e a n d l e a d n i t r a t e ) , c a n I u s e a m agnetic stirrer (low stirring...) or
will I detonate som e crystals ?
Secondly, why are they so many differences between these two pages :
<a href="http://edetonator.hyperlink.cz/Azidy.htm" target="_bla nk">http://edeto nator.hyperlink.cz/Azidy.h tm </a>
<a href="http://roguesci.org/m e g a l o m a n i a / e x p l o / l e a d _ a z i d e . h t m l" target="_blan k">http://roguesci.org/m e g a l o m a n i a / e x p l o /
l e a d _azide.htm l</a>
W ill the "C ze ch" method work efficiently ? Megalom ania preconizes a slow adding instead of the czech who add the solution in
one time !
Furthermore, Mega in troduce sodium hydroxide in his synthesis and the szech no ! what the pH do in this reaction ?
plz, give m e your opinion before loosing my fingers ! :)
a big thanx...
<sm all>[ June 15, 2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]
mongo blongo June 15th, 2002, 01:10 PM

The best method I have ever tried is adding a solution of warm conc Lead Acitate to a con c solution of Sodium Azide. You can
also use Lead Nitrate but it's very poisonous. I think NaO H is added to prevent hydrazide gas (VER Y toxic) being evolved fro m
NaN3 solution. I have never had this problem .
You add dextrin to make the crystal size small (less sensitive) but in the m ethod that I use I get a very fine ppt of crystals so
I don't use d extrin.
Phoenix June 15th, 2002, 01:37 PM

well just m a k e a s o l u t i o n o f s o d i u m azid + a fe w drops of NaO H
and a second solution of lead salt (no mater what ) calculate how much you need to get a complete reaktion
AND NEVER FO GET DEXTRIN to the lead solution
then pour the 2 solutions together and i wthite priticipate will fall out filter and dry and thats it the best and m ost easy to m a k e
initiating explosiv :)
dont care for heatign the solution it do n t m a k e a n y d i f f e r e n c e s a s f a r a s i o b s e r v e d
a n d r e m e m b er that b o t h l e a d s a l t s a n d s o d i u m a z i d a r e h i g h l y t o x i c

I add excess Lead Acitate untill Lead Azide stops precibitating. I use warm soloutions because it's quicker to filter.
stanfield June 15th, 2002, 02:48 PM

T h e c z e c h p a g e u s e 1 4 % - 1 5 % e x c e s s o f P b ( N O 3)2, as well as m e g a l o m a n i a i f I r e m e m ber correctly...
C o u l d a m a g netic stirrer be used ?
thanx !

A magnetic stirer? It would work but it could be dangerous! From m y experiences I would not recom end it!

Err, i can never get to any of the edetonator sites! It always says either "You are unauthorized to view this page" or "page
cannot be displayed" - its really annoying as ive seen m any links to it
Im not very experienced but you would probably be better not to use a m agnetic stirrer to be on the safe side. "Always err on
the side of caution"

ok, this will be "m anual strirrer" :)
Could it be p ressed in a cap ? I ask this 'cause I really don't like this idea...
see ya !

ok, I just m ade Lead azide ! this is filtering...
I m a d e a m ix of m e g a l o m ania's and the czech's m etho d...
An observation : Pb(NO3)2 is a bitch to dissolve in water ! it took me 10 m in !
W h e n y o u r a d d i n g t h e s o l u t i o n o f s o d i u m azide, the solution of lead nitrate becom e m ilky... I felt no toxic gas were produced
by the reaction but I had my m a s k a n d m a y b e t h e N a O H d e s t r o y e d t h e m ...
During the strirring, I touched many times to beaker and nothing happened so it isn't as sensitive as m e g a a n d t h e c z e c h
said...
W hen the filtering will be done, could it be dried at direct sunlight ? And, how could I "unstick" it from the filter pape r without
blowing up m y face ? usually, I scrape the paper to unstick the filtrate but this explosives is "very sensitive to shock and
friction", so, what's th e tips ?
thanx !
nbk2000 June 16th, 2002, 10:24 AM

Turn the filte r paper upside down over a plate and use a squirt bottle to spray distilled water through the filter paper and on
the azide. This will dislodge the precipitate.
Don't dry in direct sunlight! Just use a fan or warm air.

MUHAHAHAHAHA !!! I just tested out a little wet portion of lead a zide : the sound was im presive for the am ount there was !!! I
think I ignite d 1 m g o f l e a d a z i d e , t h i s m a d e t h e " b a n g " of a middle firecracker ! im presive !
Thanx NBK !
see ya !
Microtek June 16th, 2002, 12:42 PM

I think a bit of perspective is needed here. Lea d a z i d e i s u s e d c o m mercially and m ilitarily and while it m ay be very sensitive, it
is nowhere near as sensitive as aceton e p e r o x i d e o r s o m e of the other prim a r i e s t h a t h a v e b e e n u sed here. My point is that I
don't think you need to be overly concerned.
BTW , I strongly recom m end that you com p r e s s t h e l e a d a z i d e w h e n m a k ing detonators; that way you will need far less primary
and once the pressing is done, you will have a safer detonator.

ok but if it's as sensitive as aceton peroxyde, this will be a hard task, no ? this frighten me a bit... sorry !

m aybe is there way to desensibilize this explosive ?

stan field he said it is NOT as sensitive as acentone peroxide :)
if yo u are unsure then press it slightly damp to reduce friction sensitivity.

oups, you'r right...
W hat's the com position of a m ilitary Bcap ?

Stanfield- Good stuff isn't it! :)
In m ilitary Bcap the Lead Azide is mixed with a bit of Le ad Styphnate to give it better flam e sensitivity. Abo ut 5% AL powder is
also added to increase it's initiation ability. This is usually used with PETN as a bo oster.
I can't see m uch danger with drying it in sunlight but it will then form s o m e PbO in a very thin layer around the Lead Azide. I
dry m ine with the filter paper on some tissue on a hot water bottle.

I will soon receive som e Mg, could it be substitued to Al ?
Lead styphnate is harder to m ake...shit !
I don't understand why m ust I press the Lead azide to be a safe detonator ?, by vibrations or som ething like that who m a y
occu rs in the transport, this will "unpress" it, no ?
thanx !

A pressed cap will be safer because it will contain less explosive than an unpressed cap to do the same job. Unpressed is less
e f f i c i e n t s o y o u n e e d m o r e e x plosive. A pressed cap is not necessarily safer because it is less sensitive, bu t because it doesn't
contain m uch explosive, if it d oes go off, it can only do lim i t e d d a m a g e .
A question of m y own : how ba d is the problem of low flame sensitivity of LA? W ould a thin layer of BP or other ignition m ixture
pr e s s e d ont o t he LA e nsu r e i g nition?
a_bab June 16th, 2002, 08:26 PM

It would for sure. Tho ugh there m ight be some chances to get a dull blasting cap. From m y experience, if you heat the LA
slowly in a te aspoon, it'll turn yellow due to it's decom position (in litharge- the lead will get oxydized by the air) and it won't
d e t o n a t e . T h e yellow color is a characteristic of LA; it'll occure especially if the LA is exposed to light, in a very thin layer.
It's also very insensitive to hit. Actually, it'll be unusefull in a prim er. And is m oderatly sensitive to fricition (rubbing), but only
between hard surfaces (metal, rock). Is by far the m ost unsensitive primer I know. I heard about the "internal stress in
crystals", but I never had problem s with that (yet :( )
I don't think that it could be d a n g e r o u s t o t a k e the LA out of the filter paper; it stiks very well though. But is is throughly dryed
it sh ould be easy to rem ove it.

I never have any problems with it's flam e sensitivity.I am using pure che m s t h o u g h .

If worried about flam e sensitivity, a thin layer of double salts is useful. Lead styphnate synthesis is indeed causing m e a lot of
grief at the mom ent; the styphnic acid is not difficult to make from resorcinol but converting it to its lead salt just won't work.
I ' v e h a d t h e s a m e problem when making lead picrate, I wonder why.
Anyway, pressing both the base charge and the prim ary will im prove safe ty both because of the sm aller am o u n t o f e x p l o s i v e ,
but m ore substancially because the solid pellet of prim ary does not leave room for the crystals to rub against each other either
when subjected to impact or when shaken.

o k , I j u s t s e p a r a t e d l e a d a z i d e f r o m filter pape r and I didn't loose a finger :) ! so it isn't as sensib le to friction like that... but I
was prudent !
But I have a little problem, the lead azide powder is "glued" so I have big pieces of lead azide, ho w to m a k e a f i n e p o w d e r ?
hehehe, I don't want to test with a mixer... muhahahaha !
thanx !
da man June 21st, 2002, 03:54 AM

Did you add dextrin to the solution? If you don't add dextrin to the solution the lead azide forms large crystals which can be
very sensitive and dangerous, because of inner tension i think? So you should always add dextrin!
stanfield June 21st, 2002, 07:11 AM

Don't worry, I added (homem a d e ) d e x trin...
T h e l e a d a z i d e i s " c a k i n g " . . . a n d h e ' s n o t a s s e n s i t i v e a s y o u s a id so I think I don't have very larg e crystals...
Microtek June 21st, 2002, 08:20 AM

I know what you mean. Lots o f things aglomerate in this manner when drying on the filter paper. If I'm dealing with a sensitive
substance, I usually use a razor blade to divide the mass to finer particles. It should preferably be done when dam p, but using
a ve ry sharp instrum ent m inim izes the risk of explosion.
xoo1246 June 21st, 2002, 09:17 AM

I would dam pen it again, then remove it. I wou ldn't like to have small pieces of razor blade in m y face, use shielding.

If you can make silver azide, then I strongly re com m e n d that you do. Not only is it m ore powerful, but it ca n a l s o b e m a d e i n a
form which does not stick together in a big clum p. Inste ad it is a free-flowing powder.
IIR C, the process involved adding NaN3 soln to a soln of AgNO3 in conc. NH3 (aq). This I suppose formed diaminesilver azide,
which was ppted as the NH3 was driven off by heating. I think there's a patent about it in the knowledge section.
mongo blongo June 22nd, 2002, 12:39 PM

Y e s I a l s o p o s t e d t h e patent in a thread "Silver Azide" a while back.

I got a last question :
when you're finishing to filter the lead azide cristals, what's the liquid in the receiving flask ? I'm vey worried when I throw away
this liquid in the sink...
If, it's dange rous to environement, how could I neutralize this liquid ?
thanx !
mongo blongo June 24th, 2002, 11:46 AM

Sodium Nitrate if you are using Lead Nitrate.
Edit: I just realized that I use Lead Acetate so I will end up with Sodium Acetate which can be used to m ake Glacial Acetic acid.
Also you can use your NaNO 3 t o m a k e H N O 3 .
Of course you will have to evaporate the soloutions first. Waste not want not. :)
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 4 , 2 0 0 2 , 1 0 : 5 5 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : m o n g o b l o n g o ] < / s m all>

ok, thanx ! so, this isn't bad for enviro nment ! even good since sodium nitrate is a fertilizer :)
It will be hard to mak e HNO 3 whit so little sodium nitrate ! Further m ore, I can legaly buy sodium nitrate in garden store so :
no problemo ! :)
see ya !
W hat's the equation for the reaction ? I saw it somwhere but can't remem ber...
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 4 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 1 : 0 7 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : s t a n f i e l d ] < / s m a l l >

It could be harm full if you used an excess of any of the precursors! You could have a bit of Lead Nitrate or Sodium Azide left
which are both very toxic!

shit, yes, I have 10-15% excess of lead nitrate but when I throw this liqu id in the sink, I add lot of water to o...
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 4 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 0 6 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : s t a n f i e l d ] < / s m a l l >

W hen I filter, the filtrate goes directly into a soda bottle. Then I dilute it with m ore water (just incase) and chuck it in the bin .
Let the dustmen deal with it. :D
I use Lead Acetate (excess) so there is no cause for concern really.
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 4 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 8 : 3 4 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : m o n g o b l o n g o ] < / s m all>

L e a d a c e t a t e isn't as toxic as lead nitrate ?
otherwise, is there a way to neutralize the lead nitrate solution ?
Polverone June 25th, 2002, 04:13 AM

There are m any lead salts of low solubility. Convert your leftover nitrate to one of them. Add HCl to get lead chloride, or
N a 2 C O 3 to get the ca r b o n a t e . T h e n s a ve them until such tim e a s y o u c o u l d u s e t h e m for som ething useful, or until you can
dispose of them at a proper facilty.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Flash Without A Scale
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View Full Version : Flash Without A Scale

I have dreamed of attempting to make 70/30 perchlorate/aluminum flash going on 5 times now!, all unsuccessful. Both products are very high grade pyro grade materials. The
flash was succesfull with 1 out of the 5 batches I made, so it is not the chemicals. My problem is measuring out the materials for the flash, does anyone know any good way to
do it since we know the density's, like 2 teaspoons perchlorate = _ teaspoon aluminum? I think this would be helpful to many memebers of the forum because not everyone
has microgram accurate scales.

It takes a bit longer, but you can mix comps to "taste". Start with an amount of one component (say KClO4) and add some Al to it, mix, scoop a little of the mixture out with a
small spatula or similar and burn test it. Keep adding Al in small incretments until you have a mix that burns fast and completely.
Goes against safety warnings a bit, but you could just make larger batches of flash to overcome the innacuracy of cheap scales, such as kitchen/diet scales.

I figured out my problem. I was thinking that alumium is much denser than perchlorate so i was using very small amounts of aluminum in the mix. It turns out that they have
similiar density's with aluminum being 2.70 and perchlorate being something like 2.48. I was in for quite a shock when i out of frustration attempted to light a teaspoon of my
next "unsucceful batch" of flash with a incense! Will not be doing that again, or possibley hearing or seeing again for a few hours. But hey, it's all about the love of the game!

I have a good scale, so I put the "teaspoon" method to a test. I used Chinese fine KCLO4 from Skylighter(don't know the exact sieve size) and 8 micron flaked blackhead
purchased from the same. I measured them three separate times...these figures are the average(they only fluctuated by .2/gram anyway). The measurement was a "level"
teaspoon.
1 Teaspoon of KCLO4 = 7.5 grams

1 Teaspoon of Al = 3.7 grams
When combined you have a total of 11.2 grams, which amounts to 67% KCLO4 and 33% Al. I had a dream that this worked just fine for a volumn measurement!
Hope this helps
"The Bottle Washer" (oops, I turned into Amateur)
[ June 16, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: krimmie ]

Why is the perchlorate so much heavier than the aluminum? The aluminum is denser, and finer!
[ June 16, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: endotherm ]
Arkangel June 16th, 2002, 07:13 PM

Al is a light metal anyway, but it's probably because of the structure of the Al. If it was spherical, or larger particle sizes, it would be a denser powder. As it is, it's just so light
and fluffy and not a compact powder.

i think what arkangel is trying to say is that the AL powder is incredibly fine and has many air spaces between it. if you compressed a sample of perchlorate and Al powder
under the same pressure then the Al should have an apperently higher density as more air will have been forced out of it. that make sense?
Anthony Privratsky June 20th, 2002, 12:37 AM

I have 1 pound of German Black Flake Aluminum powder (600 mesh). I also have a pound of Potassium Perchlorate. Im makin a really powerful flash powder but i cant find a
good scale ne where around.
1 part- PP
1 part- Al
Would that really work?

The Al powder will have many air spaces between it, and also as its a fine powder, the "density" is more on how compacted the powder is than the density of the Al atoms
when comparing with teaspoons.
And as for buying fine KClO3, why bother? You can buy it in regular crystals and make it finer yourself, it costs a LOT less!
googol October 6th, 2005, 12:09 PM

How much precision is considered 'good'? What capacity should I look for?
krimmie uses .1 gram precision in the measurements given.

I've looked at a .01 gram scale ( http://balance.balances.com/scales/1 )
with a capacity of 200 g. Does this seem like enough capacity or would people suggest more capacity and less precision?
I'd probably get this http://balance.balances.com/scales/853

if 200 g is adequate capacity and .1 gram is adequate precision.
comments?
The_Duke October 6th, 2005, 12:46 PM

If you are using it for flash powder then you shouldnt need anything larger. Besides, you should never make that much flash in one go anyways.
If you are making 10g batches of flash, 0.1 % accuracy is fine.
PS. Ebay is a great place to find cheap scales.
googol October 6th, 2005, 06:57 PM

the_Duke, thanks for the reply.
but, I meant my question in the general sense, not specifically just for flash.
I was looking for what guidlines someone might suggest in the way of capacity and precision.
when you said

> If you are making 10g batches of flash, 0.1 % accuracy is fine <
did you mean .1g/10g ? because this is .01 eg 1%, not .1%
or did you mean measurements accurate to .1g are fine when total mass is
10g?
The_Duke October 6th, 2005, 07:39 PM

did you mean measurements accurate to .1g are fine when total mass is
10g?
Yes I did, sorry about the confusion.
A small scale accurate to 0.1g like the one in the picture will do very well for most jobs, but if it is exact precision measurements which you are after I would suggest looking
around medical suppliers for a scale that is accurate to 1mg (that is 0.001g), or you may want to look at gun shops or online somewhere. I have seen many nice scales for
measuring grains (1 grain is 0.06480g) or milligrams of Gun Powder or Smokeless Powder for use in firearms. These types of scales can be expensive but they are very
accurate.
Jacks Complete October 7th, 2005, 08:48 PM

I'd second that. Go to a gun shop that sells reloading gear, or look on ebay or whatever, and find a powder scale from RCBS or Lee (or anyone!) for not that much money, and
it will measure happily forever with weight differences as fine as 0.1 grains, which is 1/7000th of a pound!
Make a spreadsheet with the number of grains, pounds and grams on it, and blutak it to the scale for easy reference.
They all go up to at least 500 grains, and some go to 2000 grains.
Because they aren't electronic, you can trust them, and so use them to weigh things accurately for use as test masses for other (non-energetic) experiments, as well as for
testing other scales.
nbk2000 October 8th, 2005, 05:07 PM

I've used kitchen scales for making flash powder, but then I was also making enough for dozens of 'sticks', not little cherry-bombs, so...
The larger the quantity you'll be making at one time, the less important the accuracy of your scale.
If you only a scale for making a few grams at a time, buy a postal scale at an office supply store, the kind that you clip the letter onto and dangle by the hand. This is accurate
enough, and cheap enough, for your use. Use an envelope as the scale pan. :)
Jacks Complete October 10th, 2005, 03:48 PM

Postage scales are a good idea.
I should just point out that the thing with scales for things like this is repeatability, more than accuracy. As long as the scales will always weigh the same mass and give the
same reading, and they are fairly linear, you shouldn't go far wrong, e.g. if the scales say 1Kg but it is really 900g, you are fine, as long as it is always a reading of 1Kg for
900g, and you get a reading of 500g for a mass of 450g.
What would be very bad would be a scale where 1Kg = 900g and 500g = 550g.
Also, beware the electronic scales - a lot of them have very questionable accuracy, repeatability and drift, despite the appearance of electronic precision! Also, they can be
thrown by electrostatic charges on things like powder (or so I have heard)
nbk2000 October 10th, 2005, 04:37 PM

That's why I like mechanical triple beams, as you can easily see any drifting, which is something that the 'black box' electronic scales don't allow.
xyz October 12th, 2005, 08:47 PM

Jack, electronic scales are fine so long as you make sure you have a proper set of calibration weights and calibrate them every so often.
I have an electronic scale ($80AUD - Ebay) that goes 0-200g in 0.01g increments, and over the course of a few months it might lose maybe 0.02g of precision and need
recalibrating, but it's still plenty accurate even if you don't recalibrate it every few months (remember 0.02g = 2 hundredths of a gram). It converts automatically between
grams, grains, ounces and carats at the push of a button - no conversion tables needed.
I mostly just prefer electronic scales due to their speed, but yeah, if you want total reliability and simplicity then go with a balance.
The scales that go down to an accuracy of 0.2 milligrams look nice, but oh the $$$$$$

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Chemically Ignited FAE
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View Full Version : Chemically Ignited FAE
ALENGOSVIG1 November 26th, 2001, 02:28 AM

A chemical added to the fuel and have it contact some other chemical and start a reaction that cuases heat and fire. I need
some suggestions on what to use to cause this reaction. No exotic chemicals becuase this is supposed to be more simple then
using nitroglycerine/aluminum powder or other high heat explosives to ignite the fuel in an FAE.
------------------

Many common fuels, eg. turpentine, are ignited in contact with HNO3.
------------------

Thus a 1:1 turpentine/gasoline mixture could be utilized as the fuel, then a vial of nitric could be shattered (or opened by
some other physical mechanism) when it's to be initiated.
------------------
BoB- November 26th, 2001, 08:04 PM

Napalm and brake fluid (or glycerine) 1:1 A crushed ampoule of HTH starts the delay, the pressure builds up, until the bottle
breaks throwing around the fuel then igniting it.
Gasoline, styrofoam, brake fluid, and HTH, pretty simple ingredients, of course you'll have to do a few tests to make sure HTH
doesnt have any reactions with gas, you wouldnt want it to burst into flames instantly.
You could even have Hydrogen peroxide in the fuel mix, then have Manganese in the HTH glass ampoule, then a fair amount
of O2 would be liberated when the fuel ignited, making for a hotter flame and maybe even a fireball.
------------------

BoB: Firstly, I don't mean to be rude, but by any measure that's some pretty damn basic stuff. Even the cookbooks cover that
shit fairly well.
Secondly, FAE stands for fuel air explosion, not just an incendiary. It's when a cloud of finely dispersed flammable gas, vapour
or small particles with large surface area, in the air is ignited. This, if done in the right proportions of fuel:air, creates a violent
explosion. Thus, just spraying burning napalm substitute across the ground does not really cut it.
Finally, manganese dioxide is the catalyst, not the metal.
------------------
Live free or die! | http://codemason.cjb.net
vulture November 27th, 2001, 01:36 PM

dripping glycerine/glycerol onto potassium permanganate is used to start a thermite reaction. I'm not sure if this would work
for FAE though.
However, it has one advantage, the reaction takes approx. 1.5 minutes to begin, that delay could be used to disperse the
fuel.
If you have KClO4, make some HClO4 with it by mixing it with 50% (certainly NOT higher conc.) of an inorganic acid.
It's incompatible with a lot of organic fuels and metals.
So you could make a starter mix with an ampoule of HClO4 which breaks and reacts with a mixture of Al or Mg powder and
diethylether or acetone.
be very careful with that stuff though and clean up immediatly any spills.
[This message has been edited by vulture (edited 11-27-2001).]
MacCleod November 27th, 2001, 08:05 PM

Uh,when using fresh chem's,the reaction time between potassium permanganate and glycerin is closer to 5 to 15 seconds.Is
your idea to rupture the fuel container/disperse the fuel,then have the chem. reaction ignite the vapor cloud?.
[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited 11-27-2001).]
vulture November 28th, 2001, 06:46 AM

You're right madscientist:
acid constant HClO4 : 4x10^8
acid constant HCl: 10^6
(according to my data sheet, HI is the strongest acid with 10^10! Funny how such a simple molecule beats all 3+ atom
acids...)
If you spill some of it clean it very thoroughly, cause i read stories about HClO4 traces in fume hoods exploding violently 1
year after the actual spillage...
I think it's the best you can get for chemical ignition, since it is a powerful oxidizer and a strong acid which reacts violently with
metals, organic compounds and inorganic acids. (i think it explodes in contact with concentrated H2SO4 but i'm not sure about
that)
MacCleod, have you tried the glycerol/permanganate? cause the info i found said 1-1.5min. I haven't tried it myself so you
could be right.
BoB- November 28th, 2001, 06:36 PM

What the hell? I never once said in my post that it would be a true FAE that use high explosive alcohols. I even added this at
the end so there would be no confusion;
"hotter flame and maybe even a fireball."
I doubt ALENGOSVIG1 was looking for a high explosive.
HTH and brake fluid is one the simplest, most cost effective chemical rections used to start a fire.
"Many common fuels, eg. turpentine, are ignited in contact with HNO3."
"FAE stands for fuel air explosion, not just an incendiary"
Were you backtracking simply to insult me, by calling me KeWl?
------------------
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 11-28-2001).]
MacCleod November 28th, 2001, 08:57 PM

Yes,I tried it a few days before I read this post-recently acquired some for the 1st. time at Sears.It makes ultra-fast burning
flash when finely ground.
------------------

The reaction speed of KMnO4/glycerine varies greatly with ambient temperature.
nbk2000 November 29th, 2001, 05:03 AM

Some things there's just no getting around. If you want a self-igniting FAE, you're going to need air reactive chemicals.
This would be things like diethyl zinc and triethyl aluminium.
They'd be dissolved in the FAE fuel at just the right percentage that, when the fuel has dispersed to the proper air/fuel ratio,
the DEZ or TEA would have become concentrated enough to ignite, thus exploding the cloud.
------------------
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.

What the hell? I never once said in my post that it would be a true FAE that use high
explosive alcohols. I even added this at the end so there would be no confusion;So why were you then explaining a
device that had very little relevance to the thread? An incendiary is not a FAE, just like black powder is not RDX.
I doubt ALENGOSVIG1 was looking for a high explosive.ALEN specifically asked for
a strong burning self-igniting fuel oxidizer mixture to ignite a FAE, for which there is no alternate definitions. I also
talked to him about it before he posted this thread.
HTH and brake fluid is one the simplest, most cost effective chemical rections used to
start a fire.I did not dispute this.
"Many common fuels, eg. turpentine, are ignited in contact with HNO3."
"FAE stands for fuel air explosion, not just an incendiary"I did not contradict myself. In the post directly below the
former, I explain how it could be used in a FAE.
Were you backtracking simply to insult me, by calling me KeWl?
You're obviously not k3wl, sorry if I implied that. Just ill informed.
------------------
Mr Cool November 30th, 2001, 05:34 AM

Ethanol is a polar solvent, therefore ionic compounds should be at least partially soluble in it. Ionic compounds like ZnCl2 or
AlCl3 (actually these are quite covalent IIRC, but it's worth a try). If yo get a zinc or aluminium compound to dissolve in
ethanol, electrolyse the solution in a cell in two halves, with a porous bridge between them to stop the product at the anode
mixing with the product at the cathode. You only want the product at the cathode. When the metal ions gain electrons at the
cathode, they form single, reactive atoms which should react with the ethanol to form the DEZ or TEA. If you want these bad
enough it could be worth trying.
When I've done it, glycerol/KMnO4 takes about 40 seconds to ignite, but I recently saw a chemistry lecture on chemical energy
in which it started smoking after about 1 second, and was in flames after about 3.
Why is there a particular need for a chemically ignited FAE? Just sounds like added risk to me. Better IMHO to have a small HE
charge to disperse the fuel, and an ignitor attatched (another word I can never spell for some reason...) to a delay fuse which
was ignited at the same time as the HE. So the HE detonates, the fuel mixes with the air, after a certain amount of time the
ignitor is set off and the cloud explodes. I think this will get better results than having the HE ignite the cloud, as it will have
time to mix with the air. Or use an HE to smash open an N2O or O2 cylinder inside a container of fuel, maybe a 12g N2O
cylinder in a 1L bottle of diethyl ether.
------------------
"Nothing makes a man fear much, more than to know little." - Francis Bacon.
Agent Blak December 6th, 2001, 02:30 PM

KMnO4 and Glycerine reacts to fast for my liking(3-20sec in my experence).
a Mix of;
1 1/2 hth
1/2 KClO3
1/2 Sucrose
1/2 Pyredex
(by volume; in fractions of TSP)
in a film canister about half full then fill almost to the top with glycerine lid on, shake. In 45-90 sec you have a roaring flame.
I use it to light camp fires.
------------------
Go <a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak">here</a> to download my files.
CodeMason December 6th, 2001, 04:35 PM

Sounds good, although HTH has been known to known to explode on contact with sucrose. Pyrodex = brand name for
BP right? Sulfur + HTH is not very good either. But that doesn't really matter, since it's going to flare up in 40 seconds anyway,
not enough time for it to take out any limbs, I just wouldn't go camping with the stuff premixed. http://www.thefiringline.com/
forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
nbk2000 December 6th, 2001, 09:44 PM

A lab synth for diethyl zinc can be found at the Organic Synthesis website:
http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/fullTextSearch.asp
It looks doable for someone with sufficent lab skills.
Mix it in with the fuel, disperse, fuel evaporates, DiEZ ignites, BOOM!
Even on it's own, DiEZ would be useful as a smoke bomb/incendiary. Seal it in a glass bulb, and when thrown, it'll break,
burning with an intense flame and releasing dense white smoke.
What would be really awesome would be the TEA/n-Hexane couple.
TEA (TriEthylAluminum) burns at insanely hot temperature. When dispersed as a 2% solution in hexane, when it is vaporized
and self-ignites, the fireball burns with such intense heat that the radiant heat given off can cause 3rd degree burns with no
direct contact needed.
Only nuclear weapons are capable of such similar injury.
Naturally http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif TEA is insanely dangerous to handle, and expensive as

hell to make in a lab.
But it only costs a few dollars per pound in bulk since it's used in plastic manufacturing as a catalyst to make styrene.
More details are in SIPRIs "Incendiary Weapons".
Perhaps it might work using DiEZ if you mixed in fine aluminum as a fuel?
------------------
BoB- December 7th, 2001, 09:53 AM

The IRA uses 50/50 of HTH and Kclo3, a few drops of glycerine starts the delay.
Agent Blak December 8th, 2001, 09:18 AM

It work very well.
you can make little packets that all you do is mash them ansd toss them in a trash can. 45-90 sec you have a interesting
distraction.
------------------
Go <a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak">here</a> to download my files.
Mr Cool December 9th, 2001, 11:44 AM

I find it hard to believe that the IRA would use anything that primative and unpredictable, where did you hear that?
That pyrophoric lead (heat lead tartrate without oxygen to make it) could probably be used as an ignitor as long as it burns
hot enough - I wouldn't be surprised if it just smoulders, which might make it unreliable.
Or what about phosphine or silethane? (Not sure of the name for the second one, it's Si2H6) I believe both of those will ignite
in air. The silethane stuff can be made by treating magnesium silicide with HCl, along with lots of silane (SiH4).
------------------
BoB- December 9th, 2001, 03:06 PM

"Terrorist Explsives Handbook" Volume1- The Irish Republican Army, by Jack Macpherson.
I cant vouch for its validity (I dont know too many IRA members), and I'm sure you as a Euro know more than me about the
subject.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited 12-09-2001).]
MrSamosa January 19th, 2003, 09:09 PM

First and foremost, I apologize for bringing up so archaic a thread, but this isn't worth starting a new one either...
I came across a website,<a href="http://www.cheresources.com/ironfires.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.cheresources.com/

ironfires.shtml</a> , about Iron Sulfide.
Here is an excerpt:

Helvetica">At one time or another, most refineries experience spontaneous ignition of iron sulfide either on the ground or
inside equipment. When this occurs inside equipment like columns, vessels, and tanks and exchangers containing residual
hydrocarbons and air, the results can be devastating. <hr /></blockquote>See where this is leading? Because of this exothermic reaction with air, it can be useful in single-stage Fuel Air
Blasts.
Iron Sulfide is made by the reaction between Iron (III) Oxide and Hydrogen Sulfide in an Oxygen free atmosphere, or at least
an atmosphere where the amount of H2S is significantly higher than that of O2. The reaction is as follows:
Fe2O3 + 3 H2S --> 2 FeS + 3 H2O + S
When exposed to air, it spontaneously combusts according to one of the following equations:
4 FeS + 3 O2 --> 2 Fe2O3 + 4 S + (heat)

4 FeS + 7 O2 --> 2 Fe2O3 + 4 SO2 + (heat)
What Iron Sulfide offers is a highly reactive chemical that is much cheaper to produce than Tetraethyl Aluminum or Diethyl
Zinc, thus making it accessable to amateurs like us.
[ January 19, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]
nbk2000 January 20th, 2003, 12:48 AM
Most FAE fuels are oxygen rich oxides or nitrates. I wonder how'd they'd react with the sulfide?
MrSamosa January 20th, 2003, 01:44 AM

Regarding incompatible chemicals with Ferrous Sulfide, all I can find is that it is, "Incompatible with strong acids, strong bases,
metal oxides," and to, "Avoid moisture."
But, as for the fuel in wich the Ferrous Sulfide would be mixed, I was thinking that Ethylene Oxide or Propylene Oxide would be
good choices. They could be made from Anti-Freeze by first turning it to the Chlorohydrin and then reacting it with Sodium
Hydroxide to form the Epoxide.
The Chlorohydrin would be made using your (NBK2000) method of making it from Anti-Freeze. However, as a final product,
Propylene Oxide would probably be more desirable than Ethylene Oxide. This is because Ethylene Oxide is highly toxic and
therefore, more difficult to handle.
nbk2000 January 20th, 2003, 02:03 AM

RTPB "Plan for Failure"
The toxicity of the fuel is important. The more toxic, the better, because if the FAE doesn't explode, then the bomb reverts to
a CW. If the fuel is a lethal CW in itself then, explosion or not, the device is lethal. :)
Remember, any device you build isn't going to have to sit in storage for a decade with barely literate soldiers man-handling it.
You know what it is, how it's built, and how to handle it. And you can fuel it up immediately before deployment, so storage
leaks are a minute possibility.
THe_rEaL_dEaL January 21st, 2003, 01:11 PM

Sorry to be so blindly stupid and dense but what the hell does HTH stand for?
I've looked all over this topic but cant find anything?
Its late and I'm tired so I need retard help. :(
Thanks (along with your insults at my slowness :p )
(High Test Hypochlorite, retard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :p NBK)
*(Thanks NBK)*
[ January 21, 2003, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: THe_rEaL_dEaL ]
Maniak January 22nd, 2003, 03:29 PM

Hi everybody,
I want to try small special FAE: 50g of dynamite with 10%Al under 200g of mixture 80% aceton + 10-20% methylnitrate
(MYROL). I think, that dispersed/evaporated methylnitrate will easy detonate powerfull from flame of dynamite. It can iniciate
dispersed/evaporated acetone and it will detonate too with very good power...
what do you think about it?
sorry, my English is bad...
zeocrash January 22nd, 2003, 04:00 PM

how about using a fire extinguisher type arangment, where the FAE is pushed out by a gas, but instead od air or CO2 how about using something like phosphine, the phosphine is fine, until all the fuel is sprayed, then the phosphine
comes in contact with the air and ignites
you could probably rig up a system to pressureise phosphine in to a fire extinguisher, see topic battlefield chemistry -
pressurisation of gas.
just a thought
1337bomber January 23rd, 2003, 03:13 AM

Through an unfortunate mishap at my friend's farm, I found out that KMnO4 ignites when ethylene glycol (antifreeze) is added
to it, quite similar to when glycerin is added to KMnO4.
When I found this out I began to play, and the average time for the reaction to start is about 25 seconds (this stayed
constant in many different temps.)

Does Phosphine reaction spontaneously with Air?? I know that it is a flammable, as well as poisonous gas, but I also know that
it is used as a fumigant insecticde...
What I am interested in, though, are the ideas of "Enhanced Blast Munitions," and the "slurry explosives." What slurry
explosives are are High Explosives combined with some flammable and volatile substance. Unlike normal FAE's, which don't
usually kill by the shockwave (unless I'm mistaken...), Slurry Explosives DO kill largely through shockwave. I really like the
idea of a powerful blast wave, and then the subsequent vacuum which it creates. I can't see a cloud of Kerosene doing that.
Similarly, I have my doubts about Pyrophoric Ignition as well... indeed it will ignite the entire cloud at the same and proper
time, but will it produce the shockwave + vacuum which I so want to see? :confused:
What I want to know about such Slurry Explosives is how to spread the material without detonating the explosive itself? I
realize that the fire-extinguisher setup could work, but that seems a bit more difficult :( .
Sparky January 26th, 2003, 12:28 AM

On page 149 of The 13th Element, it says this:
"As the gas escaped from his apparatus it immediately caught fire and, while the gas is predominantly phosphane,* which is
not of itself spontaneously flammable, it also contains a little of a second gas, diphosphane, which is. It was the diphosphane
which caused the gas emerging from Gengembre's reaction vessel to burst into flames."
BTW the "apparatus" was phosphorous and potassium hydroxide being heated, and leading the fumes out through a tube.

Being relatively new to the Explosives field, I am having trouble understanding something about Fuel/Air Explosions.
People frequently refer to clouds "detonating" or "deflagrating." I thought that only true Explosives could "detonate," or have
their bonds broken by a powerful shock; while so-called "Low Explosives" and Flammables, such as Ethylene Oxide, which is
commonly used in FAE's, simply deflagrate or Oxidize...
But here it is, people are referring to detonating Ethylene Oxide? Is the fuel having its bonds broken by the powerful initiating
charge? Or is it deflagrating very quickly? :confused:

A dispersed fuel cloud can either deflagerate, as you say, but can also detonate in the true sense of the word.
Obviously, the fuel must be capable detonation and a detonator/booster is required rather just an ignition.
Imagine a cloud of atomised nitromethane, in the right mixture with air, it could deflagerate, or given a powerful detonator, it
could detonate just like it would in a container.
Another way to imagine it is to take a finely powdered secondary HE like PETN, in a dispersed cloud it would be a detonating
FAE.
0EZ0 January 28th, 2003, 12:46 AM

Well shit. I almost finished a reply that took me 2 and a half hours to write, and the bloody computer froze!
The reply was for MrSamosa, explaining the mechanics of an FAE. Since this comp is pissing me off I'll only write a shortish'
part on what I was trying to explain.
In an FAE a finely divided fuel (combustable solid/liquid) is dispersed in air. Air being predominately O2, has oxidising
potential. FAE's take advantage of that and use the O2 in air to oxidise the fuel. O2 is used similarly to an oxidiser in a fuel
oxidiser mix, eg. KClO4+Al. In the same way, the oxidiser needs to be in right proportion with the fuel for maximum
efficiancy. For maximum efficiancy in an FAE, the Fuel to Air ratio has to be as close as possible to perfect oxygen balance.
The closer to 0%, the higher the perfomance of combustion.
Since an FAE is basically a Fuel-Oxidiser cloud, it has a potential to combust at a higher rate than solid F/O mixes. Similarly, a
fluffing agent is used in some fireworks powders to reduce density and increase burn rate. The density of gases/clouds is
much lower than solids, thus the front of combustion disperses more quickly in a cloud than in a pile of powder.
In an extreme case if a fuel was dispersed in gaseous O2 instead of a solid oxidiser, the increase of combustion from
deflagration may be enough to bump it up to detonation.
A personal theory in which a Fuel dispersed in O2 would have a higher potential cumbustion rate (note: not said as either
detonation or deflagration), is that the O2 is already available. Instead of in a solid oxidiser, eg. KNO3, in which the O2 is only
released from it when it's bonds break down.
So the time lapse in between the oxidiser freeing it's oxygen and donating it to combustion is higher than in free O2 where it
is already available with no release required.
But that is getting onto something else. I'm also someone could easily disprove my theory, as i'm not that experienced in the
fields of Pyrotechny/Explosive Science.

Helvetica"> People frequently refer to clouds "detonating" or "deflagrating." I thought that only true Explosives could
"detonate," or have their bonds broken by a powerful shock; while so-called "Low Explosives" and Flammables, such as
Ethylene Oxide, which is commonly used in FAE's, simply deflagrate or Oxidize...
But here it is, people are referring to detonating Ethylene Oxide? Is the fuel having its bonds broken by the powerful initiating
charge? Or is it deflagrating very quickly? <hr /></blockquote>To try
and answer the question of whether an FAE 'Detonates' or 'Deflagrates', I can only say that it varies from case to case as the
disired effect/use of an FAE is not necessarily the same all through. Same with the components used in them. They vary so
much that no set answer is available for the collection of cases, only individually can they be assessed.
If an FAE was classified only to detonate, not deflagrate, maybe the discoverers should have included D for detonation instead
of E for explosion in the abbreviation. I have found no information on whether an FAE only Detonates, or it only Deflagrates.
That is an answer in itself. FAE being a term for a collection/group of different 'Explosions'. Not just a single case.
One could easily call some types of gasoline fireballs to be an FAE's. In the same context so could a blasting cap initiated
cloud containing Ethylene Oxide. It is hard to determine the appropriate answer. More specific information is needed. Eg. does
this Cloud containing Ethylene Oxide have anything else used with it? Is it used as the fuel? Or is it used in conjunction with
the Fuel?
So if one were to seek knowledge on specific type of FAE, eg. one that uses propylene oxide, using specifics such as listing the
components, then an appropriate answer could be given.
Here is a site that explains in some detail about FAE's:
<a href="http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/

fae.htm</a>
I think that is enough of my rambling in that area. I hope it was relevant to the topic :( .
As for combining the use of auto ignition into FAE's, it seems quite an idea. The appropriate precursors need to be sifted
through to determine the best combination of fuels.
Assuming when the fuels combine they ignite, causing enough of a reaction to get an FAE going.
My knowledge is quite limited in the areas of auto ignition. I would have no idea what two components you would use to ignite
the FAE. But consider in an FAE, all the components must be balanced to near perfect oxygen balance for maximum
performance. What I worry is that the ratios in which the two igniting fuels are used for OB, may not combine to cause
sufficient reliable ignition.
I hope some other members can offer information as to how a chemically ignited FAE could be constructed, as some have
already.
Good luck to you :) .
(Edit: I understand that other members have also posted some of the things that I have just written. I was just trying to go
into greater depth to explain for some of the others.)
[ January 27, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
ALENGOSVIG1 January 28th, 2003, 03:40 AM

US patent 4,463,680 looks interesting. A synth for ferrocene can be found on orgsyn.
Observer February 20th, 2003, 05:00 PM

.
[ March 18, 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Observer ]
Observer February 21st, 2003, 02:14 PM

.
MrSamosa February 24th, 2003, 12:51 PM

Continuing on the idea of points of initiation in an FAE...
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/hammsterr/media/OutIgFAE.jpg" alt=" - " />
I was playing with a pot of water the other day, tapping the sides and watching the waves progress to the center, reach a point,
and then move back out to the sides. Then I thought about how this "model" could be applied to an FAE. I'm not sure if this is
a good model for FAE's, but here we go anyway.
I have divided an FAE explosion, ignited pyrophorically from the outside (as would be the case if the pyrophoric material were
closest to the edge of the container when the burster charge went off) of the cloud, into 4 stages as you see from the picture.
Now, if the fuel is in the proper mixture with air, the fireball should proceed quite quickly inward, possibly even detonating. As
the waves intersect at the center, they then spread out again, perhaps more powerfully because of the resulting vacuum
created by the burnt fuel. Does this sound logical, or am I not taking some odd detail into account?
EDIT: Finally got the pictures to show :D
[ February 25, 2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: MrSamosa ]
Observer February 24th, 2003, 02:03 PM

.
MrSamosa February 24th, 2003, 03:19 PM

If I could show you the picture (Damn 50Megs.com - they used to be wonderful, but now they've slowly been going down the
toilet...can't fix the links now, because of various issues :( ), I could illustrate better what I mean.
I do not mean simply to create (in my model, of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) simply an
implosion; rather it would be a "Two Stage" event, the first half being the burning of the reactants, with the flame front moving
towards the center. As the flame fronts/detonation waves (should the fuel be detonating...) reach the center, ideally at the
same time, they will interact and then move outward; this would be the second half- the explosion. I was theorizing that the
explosion would be more powerful because the burnt fuel would create a vacuum outside of the new flame front.
Getting the fuel to make the transition from deflagration to detonation does not seem to be too difficult, provided that the
fuel is in its proper ratio with air and that the ignition is rapid enough. A sufficient amount of Pyrophoric Material should
provide a rapid ignition. Highly reactive fuels (Acetylene, Ethylene, Hydrogen, etc.) would be necessary so that the fuel makes
the jump to a Detonation over a shorter area.
I still may not be understanding quite what you are saying, Observer, so please correct me where I am wrong :) .
Sparky February 24th, 2003, 05:59 PM

The picture works fine for me in both Mozilla and IE. But I don't understand how you figure that the cloud will detonate/
deflagrate in that fashion. What makes you think there will be four shockwaves around the circle in the last stage? Why four?
Why would they change to become a circle in the middle? What do the dotted lines in the last stage mean? If there was a
computer similation or if you could get some reason to believe that the cloud would behave in the described fashion, then I
would be more likely to believe it.
Or maybe I just don't understand the diagram <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
[ February 24, 2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Sparky ]

He does not literally mean that there would be four, it is an arbitrary number chosen to illustrate the point.
At the centre, the flame/wave fronts from many ignition points around the circumference would effectively combine into one
circular (rather, spherical) front moving inwards.
I would speculate that DDT would be more likely in this configuration, with a converging reaction zone. Could be wrong though.
[ February 24, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
MrSamosa March 14th, 2003, 12:49 PM

Today, in my High School General Chemistry Class, we did an interesting lab... We burnt Hydrogen and Oxygen together to
create water. Nothing spectacular, but let me explain:
The procedure was as follows:
-H2O2 + KI were reacted in a syringe to form Oxygen

-HCl + Mg were reacted in a syringe to form Hydrogen
-The two syringes were attatched to each other and the Oxygen was moved to the Hydrogen Syringe (in the stoichiometric
ratios)
-The syringe was emptied into a Petri dish of soap, and the bubble ignited.
One group seemed to get a perfect mixture, and if I didn't know better, I'd say their Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture actually
detonated: Loud pop, extremely fast burn, and the Petri dish was hurled some distance away! My partner and I didn't get any
spectacular results :( .
Nevertheless, this goes to show the practicality of the suggestion of an Oxy/Acetylene mixture in Polyvinyl Alcohol brought up
in another thread which I cannot remember(Bubble Mix!), especially considering that Acetylene makes DDT (not thinking- is
this the right Acronym? Or am I just talking about pesticides =P) much more readily than Hydrogen. Also, Acetylene's
Explosive Limits are much more wide than those of Hydrogen (somewhere in the area of 15-80%). Has anyone gotten a
chance to try this yet?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > 50%h202
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shady mutha January 30th, 2001, 04:35 PM

You can buy 50% h202 at hydroponic plant shops.In australia the product is called oxy-plus.It says to be used as a oxygeniser and sanitiser for hydroponic systems.It costs $16
for 500ml.Can someone most the best mix ratios for a.p and hmtd using the 50% .Have fun.
ALENGOSVIG1 January 30th, 2001, 05:02 PM

You suouldnt use more than 30% h202. u wont get anymore yeild than with 50%. Just dilute it to 30% by adding water. you can search for information on calculating the
amount of water to be added. i'm too rushed to post it now.
------------------
Donutty January 30th, 2001, 05:20 PM

The same is available (Oxy+) in UK but at 17.5% . It's also cheaper because it has less H2O2.
shady mutha January 31st, 2001, 04:32 PM

The 50% kick ass!Ive got so much ap its funny and the 50% makes the shit so fast.I let off a 2 kilo ap charge unconfined it detonated and shattered the concrete bolck i tested
it on.I get one jar full in 5 mins i filter that,back in the fridge 2 houurs later I have another jar full.I have to throw the shit aw ay I have so much!So the point is 50%h202 is
fucking great.
J January 31st, 2001, 05:14 PM

2Kg? On Megalomanias sight it says that if a large amount is made, the w eight of the crystals could cause the AP to detonate. Does anybody with experience in making AP
know if making this much would be possible?
radar January 31st, 2001, 07:55 PM

Yeah when I make it I make large amounts, I use bacaquil it is 30% h2o2, and when I make large amounts I actually squeeze it in a ball to wring the w ater out, it won't go off
from its weight unless you have like a ton or two probably.
the freshmaker February 1st, 2001, 09:45 AM

to Shady mutharfucker.
there are 2 possibilities...
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/mad.gif You w ere lucky and you are the dumbets person ever existed on this planet.
http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/mad.gif http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/mad.gifYou are keWlish and think it is cool to make up such a story (I don't think u are!)
I is NOT possible to have 2kg of AP in the same place!
------------------
[This message has been edited by the freshmaker (edited February 01, 2001).]
shady mutha February 1st, 2001, 05:44 PM

Who says its dangerous?I have read nothing about it detonating from its own weight.What about pressing ap?Isnt that putting presure on it?Since I have so much a.p I have
conducted heaps of tests.I have poked a small pile w ith a red hot skewer[just blew it out}and it didnt go off.Ive thrown a pipe full,full pelt at a wall and it didnt go off{I had
cover}So before you start talking shit,do some tests of your own.
Anthony February 1st, 2001, 07:11 PM

Did you actually weigh the stuff (dry)? Because dry AP is quite volumous, 2kg will in no w ay fit into your average sized jam jar.
J February 2nd, 2001, 06:53 AM

OK, assuming you are telling the truth, have you no common sense? How do you know that this batch you have made wasn't less sensitive than usual? Do some searches
through the archives, there are posts made by people who have had particulary sensitive batches. It can be set off from the heat of a table lamp, that w as a very recent post.
Pressing AP is putting pressure on it. Has it occured to you that other people on the forum are taking huge risks? Or perhaps they carried out the tests safely, behind a blast
screen with remotely controlled equipment (w hich I doubt).
Where did you get the instructions to make it? You obviously haven't read Megalomanias page, otherwise you'de have read that it can be set off by its own weight.
------------------
'Lofty' Wiseman
shady mutha February 2nd, 2001, 05:55 PM

O.K. fair enough its dangerous,These are some of the tests I have done on ap.
Impact tests.I rigged a rope w ith a engine block over a tree branch and droped it from different hights onto different sized piles of ap.didnt detonate untill it was droped from
about 1 metre.
I have left ap in the sun on a 40.c day.no detonation
I have left ap in a car for 3 days in extreme heat.no detonation.
Whem fuses have gone out I have thrown the containers agaist walls the road all with no detonation.There is no doubt ap is a very dangerous substance and will kill you easily
but it nowhere as unstable as people are saying.I have had no problems with a.p and i have been making it for about 2 years.
simply RED February 2nd, 2001, 07:21 PM

The biggest charge of clear AP I've detonated is 150 grams(w eighted), I dont't know if it's been suicidal to make and use such ammount, but I did and had no problems with it.
I make AP from 1 year and still I've had no problem with it...Very small quantity blew up once in my hands, but I had lighted it w ith a match!

So you didn't have any problems w ith it, huh!
NO SHIT sherlock! if you had a problem you w ouldn't be here today...........
^Stay red^
------------------
i don't think AP is as sensitive as some people make out
but i reckon it all depends how good your AP is too
i've had batches, where i can absolutly smash this shit out of a little pile with a hammer, and it simple w on't go off
and yet, other batches i only have to feather touch it with a hammer and it goes off with a sharp crack...
but shady, you sound a touch too kew lish for me i'm afraid...
you say you hosted an engine block and dropped it on your AP?
er..yeah..righty o...what w as the block from?(what sort of car) and have you ever heard of an amazing invention called a HAMMER?
and if you left your AP in a car for 3 days and it didn't go off, your AP sucks ASS! in w hich case, using oxy+ is obviously a waste of time, because its so dam insensitive...
vehemt February 8th, 2001, 08:54 PM

Mick you said it yourself. It is due to the sheer unpredictable nature of acetone peroxide that makes it dangerous. Just because in one instance it seems "relatively safe" does
not mean it w ill alw ays be that w ay everytime.

hmm...i did kinda contradict myself there didn't i..
altho people overrate how sensitive AP is, there w ill always be a batch of AP that requires that extra bit of care.
getting into the practice of thinking "bah! AP isn't that sensitive...i can trow it around it still won't go off"
may work 90% of the time, but one day there w ill be a batch of AP that doesn't like that way of thinking...
ah fuck it...its a w aste of time explaining to you kewlio idiots...your either full of bullshit, and don't do have the shit you reckon you've done, or you do acctualy do what you
say you've done - in either case, your fuck w its
and i for one am sick of explaining to these idiots "basic safety" and "why you don't smoke next to the beaker of nitro" and "no, you can't make C4 from toothpaste and
bubblegum - despite what Totse says.." etc etc etc
something needs to be put on the forum entry page(http://surf.to/theforum) about reading makeshift arsenal, and searching the forum before asking questions
bah!...just having one of those days today...

everything i do, see, touch and hear is pissing me off....
i dunno w hy i just blab'd all that out, i doesn't really apply to this topic...but i need to vent...so there it is
eh
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited February 08, 2001).]
frostfire February 8th, 2001, 11:16 PM

never say the exact sensitivity of AP until you try making it w ith lab grade stuff (pro analis)
the reason there're so many sensitivity result out there is because of the impurities in the material, either the acid(HCL/H2SO4), the peroxide (oxy-plus bla-bla-bla) or the
acetone itself
Alchemist February 8th, 2001, 11:56 PM

Hello shady mutha and others,
As Vehemt,Mick, and etc. have said AP is VERY

unpredictable! That's exactly why the Military (goverments) do not use it! As stated, and this can not be stated too many times. You can make AP 1000 times and it may seem
safe, but that 1001 bath blow s your hand off or kills ya! It can DETONATE at times for no apparent reasion at all!
P.S., All nebies should copy this entire page and keep it for future referance!
alchemist_0@hotmail.com
------------------
shady mutha February 9th, 2001, 03:14 AM

I found out why it was not detonating from the engine I had the a.p on a book cover,It seems that this soft surface affected the tests,as when I swaped the book for a slab of
marble it detonated from very short drops anything over about 10cm.
Mick February 9th, 2001, 08:35 AM

ah FFS...
okay, heres the facts

the smallest/lightest engine block i can think off the top of my head is a 1976 toyota carolla - w hich wieghs in at just under 100kg
now, if you were to hoist this(yeah right) and drop it from a hieght of roughly 1 metre, the impact force would be somew here near 140-150kgs.
now, having a pile of AP on a book cover, and dropping 140kgs on means the AP is going to detonate, and you going to have a big fucken dent in your book.
poeple is it just me or is this just to KEWL!
seriously people?...is it just me, or does hoisting an engine block to test your AP just a little to far pitched?
OMFG! someone kill me if this ain't kewl...
Captain Nuke February 9th, 2001, 05:39 PM

I think it depends on the internal structure of the AP crystals how easy they can be detonated. This is something that you can't predict, and so it is absolutely crazy to make this
much of AP and put it together.
ALENGOSVIG1 February 10th, 2001, 05:52 PM

If you make acetone peroxide properly, it is not excessively sensitive. I wash my ap in about 1 litre of water, then sodium bicarb solution, then water 2 more times. It is
realtively safe after that. I never used to w ash my AP with that much water or any bicarb, and it was much more sensitive to impact and friction.i used to be able to put at in tin
foilf balls w ith ball berring, and launch them onto a pile of sand with a slingshot. They'd explode on inpact. Try that after washing w ith sodium bicarb and that much water and
they will almost never go off. They usually wont even go off when they hit a steel plate. But still treat ap with alot of respect. remember "technology is a wonderful servant, but
a bitch of a master" same goes With acetone peroxide and explosoves in general.
------------------------------
without evil, there is no good

The moderator for the ballistics forum on TOTSE made it pounds at a time. (He also is no longer the mod after he got sent to jail for explosive endeavors)

Oh, if a kewl idiot on TOTSE does it then it *must* be safe [rolleyes]
Nice generalization. Pretty true except in a few cases. There are some military EODs and a couple of smart people on TOTSE. ANwyays, the mod goes by the name The Real (I
think he came here too) and he w as quite bright. Came up w ith quite a few variations and ways to increase yield. HE derived a formula for Ap w here a pound could be made in
90 minutes, safely, for $8 worth of supplies. 8 bucks a pound aint bad, eh? But hes just another "kew l" idiot. What have you dont for the evolution of homemade explosives?
 Originally posted by Anthony:

Oh, if a kewl idiot on TOTSE does it then it *must* be safe [rolleyes]

Still, just because there are a few occasional EOD's and a spare few intelligent people, I advise no one to even read TOTSE text files unless for a damn good laugh! And take
anything you read on the message boards with a grain of salt. Its really not worth your time, unless you talk to a EOD or The Real. But hes gone, carless bastard got caught
with AP or something. Maybe hes not so smart. Anwyays, I w as just sticking up for the real. for the most part the totse generlizations are 100% true......
For the sake of your fingers or life dont use text files on totse.......EVER
Mick August 27th, 2001, 12:12 AM

"What have you dont(done?) for the evolution of homemade explosives?"
plently more then totse..thats for sure.
for example, i devised a way to keep all ten fingers(it was achived by not reading/doing anything on totse.)
jesus christ this thread is old

Anyone smart on TOTSE should be directed here to theforum, their know ledge, time and patience are wasted at TOTSE.
I'm amazed anyone w hose IQ isn't closely rivalled by your average glass of w ater can stand TOTSE for the few days it'd take to become a mod!

He made a pound of CTAP in 90 minutes, for $8 did he? How did he prove this to you? And you can't claim that he invented a new method surely, he just altered the normal
one, IF he did anything at all. And if he w as that great, I doubt he'd be messing w ith pounds of CTAP, and he really shouldn't have been stupid enough to get caught.
Sounds like a kew lo idiot to me.

27% hydrogen peroxide (Baquacil bought by the case-you can get about 5 gallons for 80 bucks if you look.)
98% Sulfuric acid bought in bulk
Acetone
Your right, it wasn't a "new" recipe, I think basically he used a lot of acid to catalyze the reaction faster. He never revealed anything else. He didnt want to mention much,
probablly wasnt much to it. LOL, there have been several EOD's on totse, I suppose everyone on here is more know ledgable than they are as well? As w ell as the few
professional blasters on TOTSE, what does a four year degree studying explosives and how they react mean, right? A few text files read after high school classes get out and we
know more than anyone!
He was caught when his apartment burned down and the fire department came. He evacuated the premises and told everyone he had explosives do they w ouldnt mess around
and get hurt. At least some people have a little Nobility, I imagine many people on here would run like little bitches.
 Originally posted by Mr Cool:

He made a pound of CTAP in 90 minutes, for $8 did he? How did he prove this to you? And you can't claim that he invented a new method surely, he just altered the normal
one, IF he did anything at all. And if he w as that great, I doubt he'd be messing w ith pounds of CTAP, and he really shouldn't have been stupid enough to get caught.
Sounds like a kew lo idiot to me.

Now, IIRC Pyro500 was the first person to use Baquacil to make AP after discovering it was a cheap source of concentrated H2O2. TheReal was posting on this forum at that
time.
It is possible that he got the idea from here and took it back to TOTSE.
Or it could be a coincidence.
I thought TheReal was an ok person, seemed quite smart, but making and storing 1pound+ quantities of AP in your apartment isn't a great idea.
If stored properly then it would just deflagerate harmlessly in a fire. If not I'd get it before evacuating (might get hurt Vs. Prison - no contest). Or if it did explode I'd say I has
some camping stove/blow torch gas canisters in there.
I'm surprised he went away considering he grassed on himself to stop other people getting hurt.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > "ANSO" instead of ANFO
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View Full Version : "ANSO" instead of ANFO
vulture D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 09:34 AM

This site describes the use of soybean oil to replace the fuel oil in ANFO , thus ma king "ANSO "
http://www.um r . e d u / ~ b o o m / s o y . h t m l
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 09:57 AM

It's ANSO Y.
And this has already been discussed before, along with experiment pictures, variations, re sult, and etc.
Do a search first.
And this belongs in the high e xplosives section.
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Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com / n b k 2 o o o ) t o d o w n l o a d t h e N B K 2 0 0 0 f i l e s a n d v i d e o s .
madscientist D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 07:37 PM

ANSOY is a low explosive, not a high explosive, because it deflagrates; it doesn't detonate.
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 08:18 PM

Once again, you're ta lking out the side of your neck!
Either Alen or Anthony (the british m o d s ) h a s a l r e a d y e x p e r i m ented with ANSOY a nd blew up stum ps with it. It IS a high
explosive like ANFO.
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CodeMason D e c e m ber 1st, 2001, 10:44 PM

m adscientist: If the speed of deflagration exce e d s t h e s p e e d o f s o u n d i t = d e t o n ation.
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Live free or die! | http://codem ason.cjb.net
ALENGOSVIG1 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 01:04 AM

it was m e that was blowing up trees with it.
I m ade a thread on it to which can easily be found using a search.
The pictures and m ovies that were in the post are gone now but all the info is still there.
Oh, and im not british.
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nbk2000 D e c e m ber 2nd, 2001, 01:21 AM

Sorry 'bout that.
I t e n d t o t h i n k o f c a n a d a a s b ritish, what with p arlim e n t s a n d t h e q u e e n o n t h e m oney.
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madscientist Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 01:58 PM

"Unlike burning, which can only travel as fast as the flame front can move through the ma terial, high explosives are
d e c o m p o s e d a l m ost instantaneously b y a supe rsonic shock wave passing through the m aterial. This instantaneous destruction
of all the mo lecules in the sample is called a detonation, and the rapid expansion of hot gases that results is what causes the
destructive blast."
A N F O e x p l o d e s b y a f l a m e front traveling faster than the speed of sound , not because of a supersonic shock wave. A shock
wave is not a flam e front. If you use the "flam e front travels faster than the spee d of sound it is detonation" then just about
a n y e x p l o s i v e d e t o n a tes. Also , t h e n s o m e s u b s t a n c e s w o u l d b e h i g h e x p losives under water, and not high explosives above
water. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not "talking out the side of my neck". I have no respiratory openings in the side of my
neck, just a pair of holes known as a "nose" and a larger hole known as a "mouth".
( T h i s t i m e y o u s e e m to be talking out of a bigger hole this time it's in your ass(e dited by: PYR O 5 0 0 ) )
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y P Y R O 500 (edited 12-02-2001).]
Anthony Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 03:45 PM

Y o u m u s t b e t h e o n e t h a t t o l d t h e " J o l l y R o g e r " t h a t A N F O c a n b e d e t o n a t e d b y n a k e d f l a m e...
nbk2000 Decem ber 2nd, 2001, 04:03 PM

O K , s o m eone here has obviously not read the rules or read the BFL section.
If th is certain individual HAD, they would notice that shit talking to m e is not the way to stay a m e m b e r h e r e .
So, with that out of the way, it's HED for madscientist.
A copy of this is going to the BFL section to educate future generations about evo lutionary dead-end known as the "neck
talker".
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Mercury Fulminate desensibilizing
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View Full Version : Mercury Fulminate desensibilizing
stanfield December 10th, 2001, 01:20 PM

did a search but found nothing...
So, is there a way to desensibilize this primary? maybe by mixing it with another explosive or something like that but my detonators are set off by filament lamp so, the
compound must be sensitive to this...
thanx !
kingspaz December 10th, 2001, 03:32 PM

maybe adding a small amount of sodium bicarbonate to the fulminate crystals could desensitise them somewhat to friction but not compromise their sensitivity to heat.
cornflour could also be used. inert fine poweders would be best i think. bicarb being a good choice due to its basic (alkali) nature. wait for someone else opinion though as i've
not had any experience with mercury fulminate.

Potassium chlorate/mercury fulminate mixtures used to be utilized. I think the ratio's 1:4, respectively. I'm late however so I don't have time to look anything up.
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EventHorizon December 10th, 2001, 07:01 PM

You are correct CodeMason, 80/20 and 90/10 were used. 80/20 is more powerfull tho.
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PGP ID 0x147CEF54
stanfield December 11th, 2001, 11:53 AM

I only have sodium chlorate... is it fine too ?
but the body of my detonators are in aluminium and this fucking chlorate will oxyde it !

I don't see why NaClO3 couldn't be used, apart from its high hygroscopicity.
Obviously you can't have this mixture in plain metal detonators. You could coat the inside of the metal tube with wax, or use a straw inside the metal tube. Or preferably, use a
different material for the detonator casing alltogether.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 12-11-2001).]

hmmmm....line the inside with some paint. that would be easy to do. also you could convert the NaClO3 into KClO3. that would stop the hygroscopicity (is that a word?!).
using NaClO3 would decrease the reliability as it may absorb too much moisture and be too desensitised = dud blast.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited 12-11-2001).]

Don't worry, I checked the dictionary and it is a real word:)
stanfield December 12th, 2001, 03:52 AM

what is the mixture used in the military detonators today ?
Bitter December 12th, 2001, 12:27 PM

Anything from RDX to PETN, Stanfield. Tetryl used to be used, but it's a bitch to find the ingredients for it. I think the main constituent chemical for Tetryl can be found in a
certain type of fibreglass resin hardner (not the one containing benzoyl peroxide).
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"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
Mr Cool December 13th, 2001, 12:31 PM

The primary charges commonly used are DDNP, mannitol hexanitrate and lead azide. I don't know which is their favourite.
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nbk2000 December 13th, 2001, 03:04 PM

I've read lead styphanate primary with HMX or RDX secondary.
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Tetryl is not a mix of ingredients, but a compound ((NO2)3-C6H2-N(NO2)(CH3)), one
of the first nitramine explosives discovered. It's usually made by nitrating dimethylaniline.
------------------

I usually use DDNP but, I found the yield a little poor and I though (maybe) the mercury fulminate's yield will be higher...
mongo blongo December 14th, 2001, 03:16 PM

Where Lead Azide is used it is usually mixed with Lead Styphanate to make it more heat sensitive. I think DDNP is most commonly used.
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Madog555 December 14th, 2001, 08:06 PM

i got a question on MF,
can 91% pharmacy bought ethanol be used for it? if not, will it work if i distill it?
------------------
"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX

Therefore, Codemason, dimethylaniline is an ingredient for making Tetryl... perhaps reactant would have been a better word to use.
If you want to use electrical detonators, perhaps it would be worthwhile to make a charging circuit for the exploding bridgewire type. These have no primary, just a wire which
is made to explode by sending a few hundred joules through it, at around 300 V. A load of camera flash capacitors works, and an inverter circuit is easy to build. However, you
might need to get a big cap. bank for it to work on less sensitive secondaries.
Tapioca starch is used for desensitising S.F., so it could also be used for M.F. Detonators could perhaps be made safer by loading the M.F. mixed with NC and acetone, so that
when it's set the grains can't rattle around when it's moved. Pressing it would have the same effect, but it'd be a bit more dangerous.
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Mr Cool: Yes, but I wanted to clear up confusion that some fellow members might have had about tetryl, Bitter making it sound like simply a mixture such as ANFO.
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > circular charges
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View Full Version : circular charges
Neil McCauley D e c e m ber 16th, 2001, 08:52 AM

I h a v e a s i m p l e q u e s t i o n : i f y o u m a k e a circular/fram e s h a p e d c h a r g e e . g . b y p u t t i n g a p i e c e o f d e t c o r d i n a s h a p e a n d t h e
b e g i n n i n g a n d e n d m eet each other, where and how do you attach the detonator?
Because the detonator should always point in the direction of the end of the explosive charge, that is the direction in which you
want the shockwave to move.
Can you put it just anywhere and reliably iniate the det cord? And will the shockwave go both ways, or just one. And if so, won't
the explosion blow the end of the det cord away before the shockwave re aches it?
So, how do you iniate a circular shaped charge?
Mr Cool D e c e m ber 16th, 2001, 09:08 AM

W ell if you have a ring of det cord, the only pla ce you can initiate it from is a point on the ring.
I'm sure you didn't need a new post to ask this, there are several thread s on sha ped charges... although your LO W EXPLOSIVE
shaped charge is inte resting. Not a good choice of section, IMHO .
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"Nothing m a k e s a m an fear m uch, more than to know little." - Francis Ba con.
Anthony D e c e m ber 16th, 2001, 02:54 PM

If you have a ring of det cord, no matter which way you point the cap, it's going to be pointing along the cord. Yes the
detonation wave will proagate in both directions.
Agent Blak D e c e m ber 16th, 2001, 04:11 PM

I would just have "Q" style tail and attache the Cap to the tail. But what do I know right.
------------------
"If You Dance With The Devil,
T h e D e v i l D o n ' t C h a n g e T h e d evil will Change you"
Go <a href="http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/agent_blak">here</a> to download m y files.
nbk2000 D e c e m ber 16th, 2001, 04:46 PM

Exactly Agent Blak.
Just take a short length of Det-Cord and tie it around your loop using a prussick knot or clove hitch.
Attach the detonator to the tail and off you go.
I a l s o a s s u m e your using a proper tam ping m a s s ?
Also, this is m ore appropriatly suited to Im provised W e a p o n s s o I'm m oving it there.
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Asprin toSodium Salycillate
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View Full Version : Asprin toSodium Salycillate
-Colza- July 30th, 20 01, 04:5 6 AM

just a thought but does any one know if it is possible to turn asprin (acetyl salysillc acid?) in to sodium salysillate fo r whistle
m ixtures? http://theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b / s m i l i e s / c o n f u s e d . g i f
FadeToBlackened July 30th, 20 01, 01:4 5 PM

I was thinking the sam e m yself. You could get the acid by purifying the aspirin a la picric acid, but i dont know how the acetyl
group would affect it or how to remove it. But You would react the acid with som e NaHC O3, NaOH, or Na2CO 3.
deezs July 30th, 20 01, 03:1 1 PM

W hy do you want to start from aspirin? Sodium salycilate is used as a preservative. Your grandm other surely m a d e a l o t o f
bottled fruit with it. In eastern europe you can buy it in supermarkets. It is said to be better, than sodium-benzoate, so I think
you can get it easily in other countries too.
If you are so fuckin rich, you can start from aspirin. The convertion to sodium salycilate ca n b e d o n e i n o n e step.
Boil it with an excess of NaOH (more than 2 m o l e s o f N a O H f o r o n e m ol aspirin) solution. The aspirin will dissolve in the lye. If
the reaction is complete, you will have a solution of sodium salicylate, and sodium acetate, and of course, there will be som e
NaOH too...
If you are still interested, perhaps I will try to search a m ethod for purification. But I think you had better to go to the
supermarket, and search between the preserva tives. Yo u could try to use aspirin, in stead of it.
W h a t a r e t h e o t h e r c o m p o n e n ts in this whistle m ix?
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[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y d e e z s ( e d i t e d J u l y 3 1, 2001).]
cutefix July 31st, 2001, 05:34 AM

W hy not use salicylic acid instead.It is available in pharm a c y , i t i s u s e d i n t r e a t m e n t o f s o m e s k i n d e s e a s e . Y o u c a n p o s s i b l y
neutralize it with comm o n s o d i u m b i c a r b o n a t e o r c a r b o n a t e .
deezs July 31st, 2001, 01:50 PM

If you buy it in a supermarket, that will be sure ly cheeper.You don't have to pay for the work of the pharm acist. Not so pure,
but If it is Ok for foods, it will be good for whistling m i x e s t o o .
W hat kind of m ixtures contain sodium salycilate?
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-Colza- August 3rd, 2001, 07:05 AM

W histle com p .
KClO4 64%
N a C 7 H 5 O 3 (sodium salicylate) 32%
Fe2O3 1%
Petroleum Jelly 3%
T h i s m e t h o d I h a v e h e r e s a y s t h e p e t r o l e u m jelly is to counter the hygroscopic sodium salicylate. It also says to dissolve it in 4

parts its weight in toluene. There MUST be a better way than this!
FadeToBlackened August 3rd, 2001, 01:11 PM

T h e t o l u e n e I a s s u m e is to thin it down so it is easier to m i x . Y o u c o u l d p r o b a b l y u s e s o m e m ineral spirits/paint thinner, as
they often contain toluene and xylene.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Info on Potassium Picrate
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View Full Version : Info on Potassium Picrate
Madog555 D e c e m ber 22nd, 2001, 11:10 AM

Hello, there is very little info on this explosive. i couldn't even find a patent for it. there is a m ethod for its production on
m egas site but its vague. i wa s wondering if it would be a good initiator, anyone have any info on it like sensitivity, stability
a n d V O D ? i t w a s a l s o m e n t i e n e d i n t h e p f p d a t a b a s e i n a 5 0 / 5 0 m ix of it with KNO 3. its a type of whistle m ix.
Anyways i had a little dream a bout it. here it is:
i put som e p o t a s s i u m carbonate in a test tube. i added a little water and shook it to disolve the potassium carbonate. then i
added a little TNP, there was a little reaction. som e crystals precipitated out and i filltered them and let them dry. they burn
quite fast and violently. they were a very bright yellow. i put the rest in a .22 shell caseing and it when bang. but i couldn't find
any of the case so i'm not sure if it blew it apart. i woke up before i could look better for it.
im g o n a h a v e t o t a k e a n a p a n d h a v e a n o t h e r d r e a m . i will follow m egas directions better next tim e
edit: i put it in this section because it is used in pyrotecnics and i want to know if it will be good for detonators.
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"To live is to suffer, to survive ... well thats to find mean ing into suffering." -DMX
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y M a d o g 5 5 5 ( e d i t e d D e c e m ber 22, 200 1).]
Madog555 Decem ber 22nd, 2001, 09:45 PM

hey, i found a bit of info on this in a post. also, i just woke up from a n a p , i h a d a n o t h e r d r e a m h t t p : / / t h e f o r u m .virtualave.net/
u b b / s m i l i e s / s m ile.gif
h e r e i s s o m e info on its sensitivity that HNIW p osted a while back
originaly posted by HNIW :


m . p. 250C, a. tem p . 3 3 1 C , u s i n g 2 k g d r o p p e d f r o m 21cm , 10.5 oscilations
(the oscilatio ns is a flame sensitivity test. im pretty sure that it is a torch on a pengulum and it swings over a pile of explosive.
BP has an osscilation of 3 and NC is 1)
h e r e i s s o m e info i gathered in my dre a m :
Properties of Potassium Picrate: color: bright yellow crystal shape: needle behavior to flam e: deflagigrates(sp?) violently
m a k e i n g s m o k e . h a s a p u r p l e - o r a n g e f l a m e . a cts kind of like a pyrotecn ical com p o s i t i o n . s o u n d s l i k e f l a s h when it burns
without confinem ent.
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[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y M a d o g 5 5 5 ( e d i t e d D e c e m ber 22, 200 1).]
Lagen D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 09:07 AM

I t h a s b e e n s u g g e s t e d for use in m ixture with PETN in DDT detonators, U S PAT# 4,316,412.
Madog555 D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 09:18 AM

t h a t s o u n d s g o o d , i l o o k e d a t t h e p a t e n t . i m ig ht have to dream about that http://theforu m.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/
smile.gif
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Ex. putty
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View Full Version : Ex. putty
John July 31st, 2001, 05:08 PM

Does anyone know how to make explosive putty without using hmtd?
FadeToBlackened July 31st, 2001, 05:16 PM

You can only make explosive putty by putting an explosive in it. If you dont want to use HTMD, AP is your other big choice. It can be bound with nitrocellulose and acetone. A
search (here or on the internet) would yield some useful info.

Is there possibly a way to make it with black powder??

i made a very small amount once using a very small amount of black powder and dextrin and about twice the amount HMTD. i added a little w ater and made the mix into a
paste then put it on a stick to dry. it w as only very small and when i lit it it w ent off withy a flash similar to HMTD alone. i didn't do any further tests but it could work if enough
HMTD could be mixed with it.

This is dumb. NC + BP makes binded BP, it still deflagerates w ithout confinement and is used to make stars.

Yeah Anthony is right I once dissolved some very old Double Base Smokeless Pow der from about 25 .38 special rounds w ith acetone in a petri dish and when it was hardened it
was a circular disk of black plastic-like material. it burned fairly slow and it does make a good incendiary.
I have also mixed SrNO3 into DBSP before and dissolved w ith acetone, that makes good homemade flares if you coat a stick with it.
(I wouldn't reccomend doing this with a fast burning pow der)

Is it possible to make putty w ith no NC ??
NC is very hard to come by in belgium (and w ould it work with homemade (non-double-based) NC ??
SafetyLast August 6th, 2001, 01:04 PM

Yes you can use either ping pong balls or styrofoam (sounds Ke\/\/L doesn't it?) but it w orks.
I don't know about the soluability of single base in acetone but the powder from .22 rounds doesn't dissolve too readily
ping pong balls are a little too expensive for the purpose unless you find them on sale or buy in bulk. I ran out of double base and used styrofoam w ith my left over AP to make
half a toilet paper roll of putty.
I mixed the styrofoam beads with the AP and added acetone to it in a beaker. I let it sit for an hour and removed it from the beaker I then put it into a toilet paper roll that had
the bottom pinched and taped shut. I used my thumb to press it into the tube and then fused it with 4 inches of red waterproof cannon fuse.
It took about 8 more hours for it to fully dry (yes slow drying I know) It was detonated in knee high grass and took out about a diameter of 30" of it in a very complete
detonation.
there are numerous other ways to bind AP and Im going to write a book on that soon.
I imagine elmers glue would w ork well with no complications from the glue.
for the extremely ill equipped paper pulp and water (hardens to the strengh of a cardboard plug which is coincidentally how I make my plugs)
would work for holding AP together in at a suitable density (yeah sounds Ke|/\|L I know but whatever w orks and is cheap is good)
I'll try this a little later, you may need more pulp than I am thinking how ever.
I'll think of more later
[This message has been edited by SafetyLast (edited August 06, 2001).]
BrAiNFeVeR August 7th, 2001, 07:48 PM

Where the hell do you guys find all those diffirent types of fuse ??? And does anyone know where to get it in Belgium ???
Just today, a (lucky for me) very little bit of AP exploded in my hands (less than 1 gram)because i w as using the "KMnO4 + glycerine" reaction as a fuse. (my KMnO4 pow der
was too fine to give me a descent delay)
If I want a somewhat reliable fuse, i need to crack open some fireworks, and that is really becoming a (expensive) drag :-((
------------------

you could go to your local hobby shop and buy 'estes' rocket motors. buy the 'D' class motors as they contain more pow der for the your money. one pack will provide enough
black powder for at least 15m of fuse.
ALENGOSVIG1 August 7th, 2001, 08:27 PM

Why dont you just order from skylighter or another pyro suppler?
------------------
How much pow er will you lose if you do not know what they already know?

Forgive me if Im w rong, but im pretty sure explosive putty dosnt need fuse to be set off. It only needs w ick(non oxidised fuse) to be set of. Just stick a sprarkler or ruber band
into the ap for a fuse.

ALENGOSVIG1, skylighter won't export to Europe, are there any know n companies in Europe with the same general idea as skylighter ???
I've searched (google) but i can't find a thing :-((((
Tnx in advance
------------------

Skylighter exports to the UK, the rest of Europe should be no different. I ordered fuse and a few chemicals from them, they came through just fine.

Heres how to make visco. http://w ww.angelfire.com/on/pyrotechnicalities/visco.html Hope it helps.
SafetyLast August 23rd, 2001, 09:17 PM

Thanks Anthony! you have saved my eyes from the pain of reading this Ke\/\/L bastard's post. We must exorcise the Jolly Roger demons out of this boy! (or ban him if he
keeps this shite up, w hichever is easier)
Moronic and lame is he w ho hails from TOTSE

Anthony 2-13
-A- August 24th, 2001, 12:37 AM

Brainfever, KMnO4 + Glycerine reaction as a fuse????? You even better use a piece of paper!

I know use a thin line of BP (homemade) in a rolled up toiletpaper, and it sure w orks better then the KMnO4 + glycerine, and is more reliable !! (KMnO4 + glycerine has this
annoying habit of not working in a small container, it react , but does not burst in flames)
------------------

Brainfever! Why don't you simply ask who lives in Belgium? THere is a good chemical shop in Brussel center near the Central Station so take a weekend train ticket and come
check all the chems you can have for cheap. For 300BF you can have like 3kg homemade BP quite handy to make fuses for years.
Nlhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gifrogisterij de Leeuw,Laekenstraat behind the UGC-DeBrouckere bioscoop (DeBrouckereplaats).
Frhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gifroguerie Le Lion, rue de Laeken derrire le cinma UGC-DeBrouckere (Place DeBrouckere)
Enghttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gifrugshop "Le Lion" Laeken street behind the UGC-DeBrouckere cinema (DeBrouckere Place)
ENJOY!
------------------

Wel replace those http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif by : D
------------------

Thanx Philou, i did not knew you w here living in Belgium (add me to your icq, just search for brainfever, or get my number from my details) do you speak dutch or french (or
both)? Can i get a catalog or something from that shop ?? (pdf ?)
------------------

I read somewhere on another thread that AP dissolves in toluene because it is a covalent bond. Well I decided to see how this would effect some of my ow n style AP putty by
mixing AP and rubber cement (which contains plenty of toluene). I w ill set it off tomorrow and see how it performs.

if it dissolves isn't there a risk or re-crystalisation? this could be very dangerous. make sure you use it before any toluene evapourates.

This stuff is great! I set off tw o 7g charges of this mix up this morning and it adds a tremendous amount to the pow er. When it dries, it is not flexible enough to be considered
anything more than a dry putty, it is still soft enough to stick things such as ignitors in (I stuck my leads about 1cm apart and just put a few strands of steel wool in between it).
The first charge was most definelty underestimated because I had been using my little plastic blasting caps before that and they don't really to anything except make a loud
noise and their pow er wasn't much more than a good commercial firecracker. But I put on of the 7g clumps under 3 bricks and set it off and when I went to go check, there
were just pieces of the bricks everywhere. The second 7g shot was done in a small hole in w hich it made a small crater (but still good considering the hole was open). So from
now on all my AP will be done this way.
It is also good because it is much less friction sensitive than regular AP and when a pile of it drops, you don't have to worry about cleaning up the mess, you just wait until the
little clump quits bouncing and then pick it up. :p
It still retains its ease of ignition compared to regular AP (and maybe even a little better because the rubber cement makes it dry all the way through unlike the regular stuff
which is extremely hard to get completely dry).
Edit: one more thing, due to this new mix that I have discovered, I have just had the motivation to buy 1L of 30% H2O2, 1.5L of acetone, 400mL of rubber cement... I am
currently making my ice bath which w ill consist of a ice chest 1/4 full of water and a lot of ice...
[ March 16, 2002, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
Mr Ketam March 17th, 2002, 07:10 AM

On the subject of fuse in Begium:
Your country is the only one I know w here you can get viscofuse. Try the bigger fireworkshops. Those are the ones where we Dutch folk get our professional fireworks.
And NC should be no problem. You can buy it in gunshops for refilling cartigdes.

Is there a new law that requires someone to be 18 to buy rubber cement or other inhalants (such as markers). I have always bought rubber cement before at walmart for my
art stuff (BTW, I am currently working on a 2 foot tall Vietnamese guerrilla--spelling?!?--soldier made out of paper mache w hich is about half done). Well I have been 18 for 2
months now so it really doesn't matter, it just seemed odd w hen the lady asked to see my ID.
Anyways I tried to make a liter-sized mix of acetone/H2O2/H2SO4 last night but I discovered something really interesting. My ice bath only covered about half of the measuring
cup--for some reason I thought this w ouldn't matter--well it seems that w hile I let it sit for a few minutes, only the half of the measuring cup submerged got cold. So when I
added my H2SO4 it dripped through the mix until it got to the level of the water on the outside and then it just stopped moving. After I had all the H2SO4 added, it was just
floating in the half that was above the icebath.. no matter how much I stirred it, the H2SO4 just stayed in the top half. Well I let it sit overnight and when I checked it this
morning, there was almost no precipitate!! (Probably not more than 4 or 5g.) The ice bath was inside of a ice chest so temperature was not a problem.. and my mix w as a ratio
of 10:10:1 of acetone:3% H2O2 boiled down to 1/5 the volume (probably not enough):H2SO4 (it is black so I could see the acids movement through the mix).
If anybody knows the reason why I didn't get anything, tell me!

Conc. H2SO4 freezes at 15C. It probably stayed there because there is an updraft of warmer solution and it was partially frozen, in w hich case it floats.
SafetyLast March 19th, 2002, 05:28 PM

I definitely think the the H2O2 is to blame, as more should have been used.
I don't think that boiling down H2O2 concentrates it,
however I may be wrong.
Im going to have to try that AP/rubber cement putty sometime it sounds like a good mix

Well as I have said in another thread, I have now gone to boiling my H2O2 to 5% of its original volume and the yeilds have been incredible.
As for my work on the 'putty' of rubber cement/AP, this morning a 25g charge (unconfined.. just left as the clump) was detonated by using a line of wet KNO3/sugar mix as a
delay (my mom took away my ignition box last week and I am still looking for it).. the explosion put a nice hole through a " of iron plate not to mention that it bent it all to
hell. You guys have gotta try this..
SafetyLast May 1st, 2002, 10:38 PM

I had a dream about APrc the other day and it worked great!
I made the AP using 100mL of Acetone, 60mL of H2O2 and 8mL of HCl.
After neutralizing and drying, I mixed in some rubber cement into the AP using a toothpick.
The clump of it was fused with 4" of visco and it was detonated inside of a phone book, the results were impressive, it w as like a geyser of paper getting shot up 50ft in the air
the ground 20 feet from the phonebook w as littered with ripped up paper and some of the pages floated up to 100 ft. downwind.
pics of APrc and phone book are at this site<a href="http://w ww.msnusers.com/EWpictures/shoebox.msnw ?Page=Last" target= "_blank">http://w ww.msnusers.com/
EWpictures/shoebox.msnw?Page= Last</a>
[ May 01, 2002, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: SafetyLast ]
mark May 1st, 2002, 10:52 PM

Thats awsome! Is your APRC water proof?
NoltaiR May 2nd, 2002, 01:46 AM

Good job!
I am glad to see someone making use of the new 'invention' :p
But if I may ask, w hen yours went off did the detonation have any visible amount of fire put out? Sometimes w hen I did it there would be, and other times there wouldn't.. I
haven't known it to affect the power given off but maybe that is just because I was never close enough to compare reliably.
And that is a pretty nice chunk of APrc you got there, did you happen to check its weight? (just curious because the largest APrc charge I have made was about 80g).
And a phonebook is a very good and safe idea.. other than my ideas of sticking the charges in metal pipes, or under cement blocks, or under steel plates w hich tends to make
the ground zero a bit more dangerous than it would be if paper had been used.
As for the waterproof question, I have been able to soak mine in water for an hour or tw o and then remove it and it still detonated just the same.. so I guess it is waterproof
enough (although after a dramatically long time like 10-12 hours you tend to end up with just a partial detonation). The trick really is just to make sure your clump is
completely dry so the rubber cement will seal out the water better.
0EZ0 May 2nd, 2002, 06:21 AM

Noltair, where did you obtain your rubber cement from?
I am very interested in trying some APRC, but sadly have not found any rubber cement. What are the specifications of the Rubber Cement that you have Noltair, or anyone
else? Eg. colour, solvent used, price, etc. Any info would be much appreciated :p
Anthony May 2nd, 2002, 07:33 AM

Something that might be worth considering, what if a stray spark from the fuse lands on the lump of APrc? Sod's law says it would happen whilst you w ere lighting, or close to
the charge.
NoltaiR May 2nd, 2002, 09:22 AM

Anthony may be more right than he knows.. APrc is AT LEAST as heat/spark sensitive as pure AP. I was thinking the same thing when I saw that his fuse w as so short running to
the chunk of of explosive. When I first came up w ith the idea I had no idea about its characteristics and for some reason I thought it would take a lot more direct heat to ignite
it... so one of my first tests (and yes this may mean I am an idiot) w as a small 2.5g charge within a marker cap.. a match w as imbedded in the explosive and another match
was used to ignite that one. I was using those 3" strike-anyw here matches that have the KClO3 heads.. I w as very fortunate that my explosive was still quite wet and there
was a fireball and a small pop rather than a complete detonation because when I ignited the embedded match the head flamed up and ignited the explosive almost instantly..
because of the marker it shot the fire out in a straight jet that was about 10" long.. and it passed only an inch or tw o above my hand. If that cap w ould have detonated I w ould
have been in trouble..
And OEZO.. I just buy my rc from walmart... but I guess any kind of arts and crafts store should have it. And I personally use Elmer's brand, although I did a couple tests w ith
Ross's brand rc. The Elmers seems to be a lot easier to mix well and tends to be slightly more powerful for some reason.. Also I did a volitilation test by putting a 15g chunk of
Elmers APrc on a paper tow el and a 15g chunk of Ross's APrc on another paper towel... They were both left outside (in the shade) for 10 days with full air exposure.. after that
amount of time the Elmer's w eighed about 11g and had formed a thick outside coating resembling a layer of skin where the AP had evaporated and the rc had hardened
completely. It was a bit less heat sensitive but a length of visco embedded in it was more than enough to detonate it. It wasn't as powerful as 11g of newly made explosive but
it was still enough to detonate completely.
The Ross's brand, however, had formed a much w eaker skin layer and only w eighed about 7g. The paper towel it w as on w as always moist because of the sweat it put off.
Upon ignition it made a very small pop (barely audible) and just made a large fireball.
Conclusions.. just use APrc in the same manner as AP.. meaning make it only when you are going to use it soon. Also less viscous rc like the Elmer's brand seems to work better
than its jelly-like counterparts such as the Ross's brand.

APrc sounds great! All I need to know is if AP is as acid sensitive as is HMTD - for then I'd like to try HMTDrc.
SafetyLast May 2nd, 2002, 05:23 PM

I didn't notice any visible ammount of fire.
I wasn't able to weigh it due to my lack of a gram scale.
(I am back in the stone age :) )
The fuse looks short, but I had time to run 80 feet, turn around, and watch for a couple seconds.
I used Elmers rubber cement also, and it was easy to mix and worked w ell.
Anthony, you have a good point about the stray sparks this is why I w ill shield the
APrc from the fuse in any future experiments that I conduct with APrc.
[ May 02, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: SafetyLast ]
NoltaiR May 3rd, 2002, 12:40 AM

And two more questions just out of curiousity, did it work better or w orse than you w ere expecting? And could you compare your explosive with a commercial or military
explosive (as far as energy output goes) that would make it more easy for readers to associate your results with?
Rat Bastard May 3rd, 2002, 01:54 AM

SafetyLast , I think this w ould sound more fitting < img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
"Moronic and lame is he w ho hails from BOMBSHOCK

Anthony 2-13"
Here is some of the common posts at BS:

----------------------------------------
-How 2 make c4 or semtex?
-how to make a touch sensitive bomb?
does n e one know ??????
-Black powder
Where to find it and good bombs using it
-Agent Orange
Ne one know how to make it?
-Fun w ith Snap Pops
-Where can I get these stuff?

KNO3+Sugar+Strontium Nitrate
-Big Bangs
How can I make a BANG w ith **Bombs**
[ May 03, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]
0EZ0 May 3rd, 2002, 04:29 AM

Thanks Noltair, much appreciated. I w ill have a hunt for it this week end. :p
NoltaiR May 3rd, 2002, 09:10 AM

If I may comment, what the hell does Rat Bastard's previous post have to do with anything on this thread?
SafetyLast May 3rd, 2002, 05:16 PM

I would say that it did a lot better than I had expected,
I didn't expect it to blast a hole all the way through the phone book
since it was placed near the top.
Im not sure about comparing it to military or

commercial explosives since i've never used them, but I can say
that the power output was very satisfying for me.
Rat Bastard w as referring to what I had said previously in this topic on August 23, 2001. BOMBSHOCK is pretty ignorant, thats about the level of intelligence I expect out of
them.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > the chem istry of fulm inating powder?
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View Full Version : the chemistry of fulminating powder?
the freshmaker D e c e m ber 22nd, 2001, 11:54 AM

hi fellas!
I know this topic have been discussed before, but I hop e its ok to bring this up again..? W ell, I've played around with this
composition for awhile, and I'm gettin' curious about this. As far as I know there isn't any proved explanation for why this mix
d e t o n a t e s w h e n h e a t e d / m e l t e d.
A p o s s i b l e e x p l a n a t i o n i s t h a t t h e P o t a s s i u m C a r b o n a t e and the sulfur reacts to produce Potassium Polysulfide.
2 K2CO3 + S8 -> K2S + K2S4 + 2C O2 + SO 2
B e c a u s e P o t a s s i u m Polysulfide mixed with Potassium Nitrate (1:2) also detonates when heated/m e l t e d
Like with blackpowder there isn't any single reactionscheme but the following could be posible:
4 KNO3 + K2S3 -> 3 K3SO4 + 2 N2
4 KNO3 + K2S3 -> 2 K2SO3 + K2SO4 + SO2 + 2 N2
S o d o a n y o f y o u k n o w if it could be posible to "produce " the produced chemical that detonates? -without first melting it
together! The chem icals for th is explosive mix is so easy to get, so it could be so nice, if you just could mix fx. KNO 3 with
a n o t h e r c h e m i c a l t o f o r m a e x p o s i v e m ix wich can be detonated by flam e !
Can you understand what i'm saying? I hope so! what do ya thin k ? - s e e y a
------------------

sounds very good,
i read about this in "Improviosed Primary Explosives" it sugested melting the KNO3 and K2CO 3 together but i think that it
would be better to m elt the K2CO3 and S together. one drawback though , it m i g h t e x p l o d e .
------------------
rikkitikkitavi Decem ber 22nd, 2001, 01:59 PM

I h a v e r e a d t h e s a m e text and found it fascinating that such sim p l e m ixture could be so powerful as claim ed.
But the reason for it to be melted together could be tha t the chemicals are get very very well m i x e d , a l m o s t a t m o l e c u l a r l e v e l ,
s o m ething that cant be done easily with blackpowder. Hence a m uch higher combustionrate.
So maybe just m ixing them together is not enough.
Couldnt you use KOH aswell as K2CO3 to m ake K2S4 ?
KOH is a stronger base than K2CO3 and the

S(2-) ion is a very strong base(stronger than O H- in water solution atleast)
Could it really detona te?
BTW , why would a paint shop sell sulfur ?

Atleast here in sweden some do, and since now I am proud owner of 1.5 kg sulfur flour. The guys in the shop had no idea why
they stocked it, but only lifted an eyeb row when I said I was going to use it for black powd e r g u n s
I will get back when I tried it.
/rick ard
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y r i k k i t i k k i t a v i ( e d i t e d D e c e m b er 22, 2001).]
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y r i k k i t i k k i t a v i ( e d i t e d D e c e m b er 22, 2001).]

i know, but m a y b e i f u m e l t t h e S a n d P o t a s s i u m Carbonate together it will make Potassium Polysulfide. i think this would work
------------------
nbk2000 Decem ber 22nd, 2001, 04:26 PM

The fusion m ix may be absorbing nitrogen from the air also.
Just like when a mix of carbonate and carbon are fused, it absorbes nitrogen to form a cyanide (CN), so too may th e m ix of
carbonate and sulfur form ? (SN).
And nitrogen-sulfur bonds are weak.
Just my theo ry.
------------------

Jumala Decem ber 22nd, 2001, 08:34 PM

Has anyone tryed the receipe in the following text. ( I think it is the original receipe)
I have ordered some potash but I havnt got it until now.
** This is fulminating powder***, m ade, according to U re's "Dictionary of C hemistry," first Am erica n edition, Philadelphia, 1821
by triturating in a warm m ortar, three parts by weight of nitre, two of carbonate of potash, and one of flowers of sulfur. Its
effects, when fused in a ladle, and then set on fire, are very great. The whole of the m elted fluid e xplodes with an intolerable
n o i s e , a n d t h e l a d l e i s c o m m only disfigured, as if it had received a strong blow downwards.
*** Samuel Guthrie, Jr. (ef. Archeion, 13, 11 ff. [19311), m anufactured and sold in this country large quantities of a sim ilar
m aterial. In a letter to Benjam in Silliman dated Septem ber 12, 1831 (Am . J. Sci. Arts, 21, 288 ff. [18321), he says:
I send you two sm all phials of nitrated sulphuret of potash, or yellow powder, as it is usually called in this country.... I have
m a d e s o m e hundred pounds of it, which were eagerly bought up by hunters and sportsme n for prim ing fire arm s , a p u r p o s e
which it answered most adm irably; and, but for the happy introduction of powder for priming, which is ignited by percussion, it
would long since have gone in t o e x t e n s i v e u s e .
W ith this preparation I have h ad m uch to do, a n d I d o u bt whether, irf the whole circle of experim e n t a l p h i l o s o p h y , m a n y c a s e s
c a n b e f o u n d i n v o l v i n g d a n g e r s m ore appalling, or more difficult to be overcom e, than m elting fulminating powder and saving
the product, and reducing the process to a business operation. I have had with it som e eight or ten tremen d o u s e x p l o s i o n s ,
a n d i n o n e o f t h e m I received, full in my face and eyes, the flam e o f a q uarter of a pound of the composition, just as it had
b e c o m e t h o r o u g h l y m elted.
T h e c o m m on proportions of 3 parts of nitre, 2 parts of carbonate of potash and 1 part of sulphur, gave a powder three tim e s
quicker than com m on black powder; but, by m elting together 2 parts of nitre and 1 of carbonate of potash, and when the mass
was cold adding to 41/2 parts of it, 1 part of su lphyr equal in the 100, to 54.54 dry nitre, 27.27 dry carbonate of potash and
18.19 sulphtir-a greatly superior composition was produced, burning no less than eight and one half tim e s q u i c k e r t h a n t h e
b e s t c o m m on powder. The substances were intimately ground to gether, and then melted to a waxy consistence, upon an iron
plate of one inch in thickness, heated over a m tiffled fu r n a c e , t a k i n g c a r e t o k n e a d t h e m a s s a s s i d u o u s l y , a n d r e m o v e t h e
p l a t e a s o f t e n a s t h e b o t t o m o f t h e m a s s b e c a m e pretty slippery.
By the previously m elting together of the nitre and carbonate of potash, a m ore intim a t e u n i o n o f t h e s e s u b s t a n c e s w a s
effected than could possibly be m a d e b y m e c h a n i c a l m eans,. or by the slight m elting which was ad missible in the after
process; and by the slight melting of the whole upon a thick iron plate, I was able to conduct the b usiness with facility and
s a f e ty. The melted m a s s , a f t e r b e i n g c o l d , i s a s h a r d a n d p o r o u s a s p u m ice stone, and is grained with di,-neulty; but there is
a stage when it is cooling in which it is verv crumbly, and it should then be powdered upon a board, with a small wooden
cylin der, and put up hot, without sorting the grains or even sifting out the flour.

t h e s e c o n d o ne is the one i was talkin about, you can find it at the bottom of imp rovised Prim ary explosives
------------------
vulture D e c e m ber 28th, 2001, 02:52 PM

Jumala, how is fulminating powder called in german?
Jumala D e c e m ber 29th, 2001, 12:22 AM

Sorry, I have n o i d e a . I h a v e f o u n d o n ly the text posted before.
Is it possible that it h a s n o s p ecial germ a n n a m e l i k e m ost other powder m ixtures too.

Yes, I think Jumala's right. Fu lm inates (when referring to m ercury fulm i n a t e a n d c o m p o u n ds sim ilar to this) are called
"Fulm inate", but I couldn't find a translation for "fulm inating powder"
Rhadon
FadeToBlackened January 5th, 2002, 03:26 AM

I n " I m p r o v i s e d P r i m a ry Explosives" There is a little bit about this, The fulminates (CNO), Fulm inating comp ounds (usually
nitrides) and fulm inating powder. Fulm inate actually me a n s s o m ething like, erupting with violence, or scream i n g , o r s o m e t h i n g
like that. So Fulminating Powder, simply m e a n s e x p l o d i n g p o w d e r
Mr Cool January 5th, 2002, 07:05 AM

Y e a h , f u l m inans is a latin word, m eaning angry or som ething like that. It's been a while since I did latin at school, but it
m e a n s s o m ething like that.
P o t a s s i u m p o l y s u l p h i d e c a n b e b o u g h t a s a m e t a l a g e i n g c h e m ical, for e x a m p l e f r o m <a href="http://www.rose-
chemicals.co.uk/patinati.htm" target="_blank">www.rose-chem icals.co.uk /patinati.htm</a> 16/100g, so if you wan t to do
s o m e e x p e r i m enting it m ight be worth buying it pure.

My chemistry lexicon says that "fulm inate" is derived from "fulmen" what m eans lightning.

Did any of you ever tried making fulm inating powder with AN instead of KNO3?
the freshmaker January 7th, 2002, 05:52 PM

yea I have tried using AN instead! It doesn't work!The AN just decomposed/melte d with no explosive reaction at all.. Though
I've tried to add a little Aluminium and that gives a little more powerfull explosion and a small flash! -try it!
Maybe other Nitrates with a melting point around the m .p of KNO 3 would work..?
[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: the freshmaker ]

mr.evil March 14th, 2002, 11:01 AM

i've m olted K2CO3+KNO 3 together, an brown-grey substance was formed , when dry and grinded down, i put the S8 to it. It
doesn't burn/Detonate:(
this afternoon i try to melt S8+K2CO 3 together. Hopefully this will work :confused:
Cya
Alchemist March 14th, 2002, 11:44 AM

Hello all,
At one time K or Na p olysulfide used to be called Liver of Sulfur do to it's color! I have made this b y m e l t i n g t o g e a t h e r e q u a l
a m o u n t s o f s u l f u r a n d D R Y P o t a s s i u m C a r b o n a te. It works very well in the fulm inating powder composition. It may be worth
while trying different ratio's of Sulfur and Potassium Carbonate and m aybe even different Sulfides or even Sulfites! W h o
k n o w s . L o o k s l i k e a l o t o f e x p erimenting to be done here. Also what about trying Nitrite or dare I say it eve n Chlorate instea d
of Nitrate.
Have fun the n!

I looked it up, m elting the potassium carbonate and sulfur together yields potassium polysulfide which you need for the
fulm inating powder. Add the KNO3 afterwards.

c o u l d t h e p o t a s s i u m p o l y s u l p h i d e b e m ade, powdered afterwards and then m i x e d with KNO3 making a useful com position?
heat from a flam e wo uld melt it = boom !...i've probably m a d e s o m e m i s t a k e s h e re...havne't read the whole thread!

There still se e m s t o b e a l o t o f c o n f u s i o n ( e x t r e m e confusion guaranteed for newbies); I'll attempt to make a post that will be
m ore clear.
The typical "fulm inating powder" is a m ix of a polysulfid e, typically sodium or potassium p olysulfide: Na2Sx, K2Sx; and an
o x i d izer. The oxidizer used is usually a metallic nitrate, considering that K2Sx is such a powerful reducer that m ore powerful
o x i d izers would be extremely dangerous. So, the typical "fulm inating powder" sim ply is a reducer / oxidizer m ixture.
T h e s e v e r a l m ain types of alkaline polysulfides are as follows (I'll use the symbol "Am " fo r "alkaline m etal"): Am2S2, Am2S3,
Am 2S4, Am2 S5, Am2S6. All polysulfides are wa ter soluble. Polysulfides react violently with oxidizers, such as hydrogen
p e r o x i d e . T r y d r o p p e r i n g 3 0 % H 2 O 2 o n t o a s m a l l p i l e o f A m 2 S x ; t h e r e s u l t i s a s m a l l e x p l o s i o n ( d o this with appropriate
s a f e ty gear only, this reaction form s lye, which obviously is sprayed everywhere). The polysulfides range from yellow to a deep
o r a n g e . T h e h i g h e r t h e v a l u e o f t h e " x " in Am2 Sx, the deeper the color. It is sim ple to prepare each kind of polysulfide;
sim ply adjust the amount of sulfur used.
I don't recom m e n d p r o d u c i n g a l k a l i n e p o l y s u l f i d e s b y h e a t i n g a n a q u e o u s s o l u t i o n o f A m 2 C O 3 or Am H C O 3 or Am O H ; t h i s
produces Am 2Sx, but also a h u g e a m ount of Am 2 S O 3 a n d A m HSO 3. Right now, I recom m end producing it by heating the
sulfur and the alkaline compound (basic pH for that com pound, of course). Another (FAR superior) method is curren tly under
d e v e l o p m ent.
Be cautious when preparing a polysulfide with NaOH; it produces large am o u n t s o f h y d r o g e n s u l f i d e , a g a s m ore toxic than
even hydrogen cyanide.
2NaOH + S8 --> Na2S6 + H2S + SO2
<sm all>[ April 17, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Pu239 Stuchtiger ]</sm all>
plasma May 22nd, 2002, 01:46 PM

T o m a k e p r o duction of polysulfides fro m h y d r o x i d e s m ore safe one could lead the H2S into a solution with free m etal ions.
The H2S wou ld then react with the m etal ions and create a sulfid e. Like this :
2NaCl(s) + (water) -> 2Na+ 2Cl-
H2S(g) + 2NaCl(aq) -> Na2S + 2HCl
T h e v e r y p o i s o n u s H 2 S i s t h e n a v o i d e d . M U C H safer but still dangerous, gas leaks do occur.
vulture May 22nd, 2002, 04:04 PM

Your reaction will not work with NaCl, because H2S is a weaker acid than HCl (weaker acids never set free stronger acids unless
the other acid is more volatile). It will work with NaOH + H2S though.
plasma May 24th, 2002, 08:26 AM

Ohh... Didn't think of that. :)
xyz May 31st, 20 02, 10:5 6 PM

B e c a u s e t h e m i x d e t o n a t e s w h e n h e a t e d / m elted (instead of sim ply deflagrating like BP), would it be possible to m ake it
without having to grin d the ingredients up like you do with BP? e.g. m elting together the ingredients at a te mp low enough n ot
to cause detonation instead of grinding them u p a n d t h e n m ixin g
How wide is the m a r g i n b e t w e e n h o t e n o u g h t o m e l t a n d h o t e n o u g h t o d e t o n a t e ? I f y o u c a n s i m ply m elt it then it will save a

lot of ball m illing
Pu239 Stuchtiger May 31st, 20 02, 11:2 0 PM

Dissolve the Na2Sx and the NaNO3 (or K, whatever) in water, m ix the two , and recrystalize. DO NOT melt the m ix of the two.
xyz May 31st, 20 02, 11:3 1 PM

Ok, so recrystallizing will work instead of grinding. W ill this work with any com p wh e r e b o t h t h e f u e l a n d t h e o x i d i s e r a r e s o l u b l e
in water? e.g. KNO3 a nd Sugar
Polverone May 31st, 20 02, 11:5 1 PM

In general, you can't substitute crystallization for fusion (melting). This goes for the fulm inating powder as well. The
polysulfides are quite hygroscopic, so you would have a hard tim e getting the fulminating powder to work this way also. In the
case of sugar/saltpeter, I can tell you that I've many times mad e KNO3/sucrose solutions and drie d them. They don't burn
nearly as fast as ballm illed KNO3/sucrose, m uch less a com position that's been b allm illed and then fused together. But the
fusion is hazardous, so you'd be better off getting som e sorbitol (lower melting point) if you want to m a k e r o c k e t m otors. If
y o u ' r e m a k i n g s m o k e b o m bs, pretty m uch any old way of com bining the KNO3/sucrose will do.

Doesn't the polysulfide decom pose into NaOH and H2S in contact with water?
Polverone June 2nd, 2002, 06:23 PM

I have discovered, from reviewing several articles, that polysulfides can form in aqueous media but that they are easily
o x i d i z e d b y e x p o s u r e to air. T hey form thiosulfate when oxidized.
Does anyone have access to Chymia vol. 2, 1954? It contains an article by Tenne y L. Davis called "Pulvis Fulminans" that
explores fulminating powder in depth and apparently gives an improved formulation for it.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > saltpetre
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There is a product called saltp e t r e a n d i s l a b e l e d p o t a s s i u m nitrate. I was thinking that this is kn03 but from what I've read
kn03 is hard to find, is it possible it isn't the same thing
Have any of you heard of saltpetre
Gab July 31st, 2001, 06:05 PM

It is kno3.

fucking hell. oh m y god. have you ever searched on an encyclop edia for potassium nitrate????....then it will tell you salt
petre=potassium nitrate=KNO3 which means they are all the same.
you really, really need to get educated with some basic chem istry. read a GC SE chemistry book. that should be enough for a
basic understanding.

k i n s p a z , m an you need to chill out
the freshmaker July 31st, 2001, 06:09 PM

Potassium Nitrate is also called Saltpeter, so since it is says both Potassim Nitatrate and Salpeter you can be pretty sure that it
is th e right thing. How hard it is to get KNO3 is depending on where you live. Som eplaces you can buy it in supermarkets and
s o m e where it is nearly impossible to buy it.

sorry john, i did over react. alot of chem icals are sold under their 'traditio nal' nam e s ( u s u a l l y t h e o l d y e o l d e n a m e s ) .

30 seconds with a book or a websearch would h ave given you your answe r. Go and read th e f o r u m r u l e s b e f o r e p o s t i n g a g a i n
and read some threads to see how things work around here.
John August 1st, 2001, 12:04 AM

to fresh
I t d o e s d e p e nd where you get it I can get it an amish deli type shop for about $3
nbk2000 August 1st, 2001, 01:24 AM

To anyone who cares to give it a try:
Take a saturated solution of calcium nitrate ($9 US for 50 pounds), then add a saturated solution of sodium bicarbonate
(Baking soda). When the calcium carbonate sludge has settled, pour off the clear liquid through a filter and boil till a crystal
layer forms on top of the liquid.
Set aside to cool, poke hole in crystal layer, and pour off the liquid. What rem ains is 98+% pure sodium nitrate crystals.
Substitute a potassium salt fo r potassium nitrate. I kno w you can buy po tassium chloride as a sodium-free water softener for
$10 US (50 pounds). But how you seperate the soluble calcium chloride I leave to you to discover.
(PS. I know this is posted in 2 places. That's m y perogative. NBK2000)
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them "
Go here (http://m embers.nbci.com / a n g e l o _ 4 4 4 / d l o a d . h t m l) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com /nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.
John August 1st, 2001, 01:33 AM

Nbk
W hat is it that you end up with though?? Or is that what I'm s u p p o s e t o f i g u r e o u t ?
Gussios maXimos August 1st, 2001, 04:52 AM

s o m e of the stuff you guys posted is actualy wrong salt peter is not just potasium nitrate
ive seen sodium nitrate sold as salt peter as well .it is just the salt used to cure m e a t s
John456 August 1st, 2001, 05:25 AM

My god, your giving Johns everywhere a bad name http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif . Think about it. If a
m etal-nitrate plus a sodium salt = sod ium nitrate, then what do you think a m etal-nitrate + a potassium salt is going to yield?
BrAiNFeVeR August 1st, 2001, 10:51 AM

W ell ... I'm not too educated in chem istry, but I'm guessing Potassium nitrate ...
Basically, I'm just interested in the part of chemistry that explod es ;-)
P S : a n y o n e k n o w s h o w to contact Snipie ?? (I want some further inform ation on the aquirement of Al powder @
g o u d a c o m p o sieten) Snipie --> email me : brainfever_t1@hotma il.com
------------------
"Mess with m e, and you'll end up with a .44 under your chin and your bra ins on the ceiling"
[This message has been edited by BrAiNFeVeR (edited August 01, 2001).]
J August 1st, 2001, 03:17 PM

To practice pyro safely, you re ally should try to understand the chem istry behind it. You don't have to learn everything at once,
but at least learn what's going on in whatever you plan to m a k e .
New mem bers take note: this thread d e m o n s t r a t e s t h e i m portance of searching the forum before posting!
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com /bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/
&.src=bc&.view=l)
Lagen August 2nd, 2001, 03:09 AM

G u s s i o s M a X i m o s , I a d m i t t h a t what you said is partly true. But usually saltpetre m e a n s p o t a s s i u m nitrate. If you want to avoid
confusion, use these more specific archaic term s:
Chilli saltpetre = sodium nitrate

Peru saltpetre = potassium nitrate
Norwegian saltpetre = calcium nitrate
Donutty A ugus t 6t h, 2001, 06: 17 PM

BrainFever...Yeah, just take a bit of chem ical X and m ix it with chem ical Y and see if it explodes!...at your own risk!!
It is absolutely essen t i a l t o h a v e a s m a l l a m o u nt of scientific knowledge if you want things to explode... It's like a mechanic
not knowing what sort of oil to u s e i n a n e n g i n e .
I studied chemistry at school for 3 years and that only covered the basics. Don't expect to survive long if you don't know what
you're doing. Today I m ade trinitrophenol, a pretty run-of-the-m ill chem ical for pyros. This involves poisonous, toxic and
corrosive che m i c a l s , a s w e l l a s d e a d l y p o i s o n o u s g a s s e s b e i n g p r o d u c e d . I f y o u d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t h o s e g a s s e s a r e a n d w h a t
they can do to you, your're de ad.
Buy a chemistry book , CD-ROM etc. and get a basic clue, or forg et having pyro as a hobby.
BrAiNFeVeR A ugus t 6t h, 2001, 07: 44 PM

I've had a fe w years basic che mistry (2 to be precisely), and I am very interested in what actually goes on ...
But i will never be able too analyze the stuff that happens like som e of you guys can ... too bad :-(
D o e s a n y o n e h a v e a c h e m istry crash course that they can put online som ewhere ??
I'd greatly appreciate that !
------------------
J August 7th, 2001, 07:50 AM

There is no such thing. You can't learn something like chem istry in 5 minutes, even proffesionals who have studied it all their
lives learn new things.
You need to take it slowly, don't get im p a t i e n t . Y o u d o n ' t n e e d t o b e a n e x p e r t , b u t y o u d o n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t ' s g o i n g

on. If you can't be bothered, find a safer hobby.
And never tell yourself that yo u'll never be able to do it! Be positive and try hard.
------------------
&.src=bc&.view=l)
BrAiNFeVeR A ugus t 7t h, 2001, 07: 36 PM

T h a n k y o u , o h m ighty mod, for the good advice. I have now regained the trust in m yself, and will start a whole new life ;-)
No really, i am slowly but certainly learning the mystics of chem istry. (just have a little patience with me)
------------------
-A- August 24th, 2001, 12:45 AM
Be sure it is potassium nitrate a n d n o t s o d i u m nitrate. (since it is labelled potassium nitra te I think it is...). It is generally sold
in sm all pellets or balls. It is also often covered with som e sort of colorant, wash it, dry it, and then use a coffee grinder, it
works wonders.

Ive looked through the ace nursery, and I couldnt find an potasium nitrate. One brand of fertilizer even boasted that,infact, it
could not burn! Does anyone know a brand name?
SATA NIC August 29th, 2001, 03:40 AM

i can't find nitrates anywhere. i have sm all am ounts from schol last year, but i cannot get the 50+ kg bags home, that they sell
it in at the hardware type rural stores. i can't find a sma ll supply, like in garden centers or any thing. trust me, i've tried. i am
now looking for any source of sodium, potassiu m, or even calcium nitrate, or another that i could use like above. (n b k ' s p o s t )
BoB- August 29th, 2001, 11:41 AM

Dude, you probably could find Calcium Nitrate, I've heard from many sources that it is com m on snow melting "salt".

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Hypothetical, alternative method to
chlorate m anufacture..
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Wedge August 2nd, 2001, 01:12 AM

Hello people, [especially the (g)Mods http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/biggrin.gif]
Is it possible to bubble ozone through a solution of NaCl or KCl to obtain NaClO3/KClO 3 ?
Lagen August 2nd, 2001, 02:48 AM

Even if it was possible (I doub t it is):
O z o n e i s e x t r e m ely p oisonous in higher doses. It will attack plastic, all kinds of cem ents and fittings in you r reactor. Do you
have a bottle of lique fied O3? If not, are you sure your ozone source capacity is sufficient to produ ce a visible am o u n t o f
chlorate? A m o l e o f g a s o c c u p i e s a v o l u m e of ca 22 liters. A m ole => a few tens of grams of produ ct at 100% efficiency. Now
you should consider what is th e concentration o f ozone in the ga s you wo uld be bubbling through the solution? And how m a n y
years will it take to produce a kilo of product?
Wedge August 2nd, 2001, 02:52 AM

T h a n k s L a g e n, I appreciate your informative re ply http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/smile.gif.
deezs August 2nd, 2001, 02:03 PM

Hey Lagen!
Do you know this reaction?
2 ClO 2 + 2 KOH = KC lO2 + KClO 3 + H2O
K C l O 2 i s a g o o d o x i d i z e r t o o , s o y o u d on't need to separate it. The only problem with this, that you can m a k e C lO2 from
KClO3....
O h , a n d I t e x p l o d e s o v e 6 0 d e g c e l s i u s . N e e d m ore?
------------------
FadeToBlackened August 2nd, 2001, 03:45 PM

Chlorates were once prepared by bubbling Cl2 through a hot solution of NaOH. This formed hypochlorite which then
decomposed to NaCl and NaClO3.
Lagen August 3rd, 2001, 04:08 AM

Hm , let's ma k e s o m e rough calculations...
Assuming that the reaction KC l+O 3->KClO3 is true and happens with 100% efficiency of conversion (and please all chemists
here don't flam e m e, the poster of this thread stated this was hypothetical). Assu m i n g y o u w i s h e d t o m a k e 1kg of KClO3 with
this process.
The solubility of KClO 3 @25C is 8.613g/100g H2O , and of KCl much higher, m eaning you could use as little as 11.61 l of
water to hold the reactants. In order not to slow down the reaction, make it a 12-15 l buck et.
Assuming first that you would be using the type of ozon e g e n e r a t o r s o l d a s a i r c l e a n e r . T h e l e t h a l d o s e o f o z o n e i s 5 0 p p m f o r

3 0 m i n u t e s , m ost toxins induce som e very hea vy dama g e a t s u b - l e t h a l d o s e s ( o r d e r s o f m agnitude lower) but say that you
value the kilo of chlorate so m uch you could take the crippling dam age resulting from b r e a t h i n g 2 5 p p m of O 3 . A s s u m i n g t h e
density of air is 1.162 g/l (at 25C, 100kPa, 50 % R H a n d 0 . 0 4 % C O 2). Y ou would thus have 29.05 m icrogram s of O 3 per litre
in the air to bubble through the solution. You n eed 391.66474g O3, i.e. 13482435.1 liters of the g as (again: over 13 m illion).
Now by the tim e you would have bubbled your first million of liters throug h the bucket (I seriously doubt you could make it
within the 30m in limit, even if you were at good terms with your ozone generator - rem e m b e r t h e b u b b l e s m ust be sm all, they
m ust be 100% reacte d) - by that tim e you would be several tim es dead. Say you were able to react 10ml of the bubbles per
s e c o n d . Y o u ' d n e e d 4 2 y e a r s a n d 9 m onths. For those 42 years you would have to keep replacing the destroyed reactor parts,
b r o k e n o z o n e g e n e r a tors etc. so som e contact with the gas would be unavoidable . Your to tal working time m u s t n o t e x c e e d 3 0
m inutes, or 42 seconds per year. Of course... you could handle the m ixture upwind, wear som e o z o n e p r o o f s p a c e s u it etc. But
still, would you risk the m ethe orologists discovering som e " o z o n e p a t c h " i n t h e a r e a , a n d d o i n g s o m e research into it? http://
theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b / s m i l i e s / s m ile.gif
There are ozone generators that could do the job. You could use the ones sold for water treatm e n t . T h e y r a n g e a p p r o x i m a t e l y
from $500 (you can expect a few hund red milligrams O3 per hour) to over $30000 (several hundred grams per hour &
concentrations around 80000 ppm ).
All in all, I th ink making a kilo of chlorate in this fashion is a bit inconvenient. I say stick to the chlorate cell, m a y b e m a k e a
big tank for it with an effective cooling system and use a couple welders to power it... This would be far cheaper than the above
process and you would get your product within hours, or even m inutes...
F a d e T o B l a c k e n e d : Y e s , a n d t h a t ' s s o m ething com pletely different than the ozone reaction in terms of efficiency. Th e chlorine
can be prepared by direct action of the current on the electrolyte, and the current efficiency is on the order of tens of percent.
The chlorine can be m a d e c o n centrated, and is stable.
Deezs: I suspect that is one of the reactions th at happen in the chlorine process, will have a look at it.
deezs August 3rd, 2001, 02:48 PM

I m ade my few gram s of KClO 3 (for analytical use) with bubbling C l2 through hot KOH solution. It has a bad yield, it is
e x p e n s i v e a n d n e e d s t o o m uch work.
------------------
BoB- August 5th, 2001, 01:33 AM

A 1 gallon milk jug, a couple of batterys or a DC converter, and the electrolyte = cheap effective cell. (com plete cell materials
can be found at http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/kclox _EN.htm l )
A couple of vent holes in the jug, and operating the cell in a bucket of ice are good ideas, keep in mind however that cell
o p e r a t i o n g e n e r a t e s p o i s o n o u s, flamm a b l e g a s ' s .
A n e x p l o s i o n is always a possibility.
Sacrificing a few Pyrex pans for the hypochlorite reaction (see the link above in m y post) is much easier to get to work, but you
t e n d t o i n h a l e m ore bad gas's with this way.
FadeToBlackened A ugus t 5t h, 2001, 02: 22 PM

Bucket of ice? I thought chlorate production was only favored at higher temps (50 - 8 0 C ) ?
Lagen A ugus t 5t h, 2001, 03: 14 PM

You don't need cooling if you run the cell at m oderate currents (tens of Amps at m ost). I m entioned a big tank with an
" e f f e c t i v e c o o l i n g s y s t e m " b e c a u s e o f t h e h u n d r e d s o f A m p s f r o m the welders. IMO that's the thing to spen d the extra bucks
on if you want to scale up your chlorate production, rather than the BIG o zone generator, which could have about the same
output. But still, designing a cell with a welder is not easy, usually the voltage is too low and some boiling in betwee n the
electrodes cannot be avoided. A good, stable DC output welder with volta g e h i g h e n o u g h t o c o u n t e r the huge voltag e d r o p s i s
expensive.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Cast acetone peroxide
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Today i had success casting AP in blasting caps.
I stood the blasting cap body filled with AP upright in a pot of water and began heating the water with a hotplate. When the water begins to simmer, unplug the hotplate and
wait for the w ater to cool dow n before getting close to it. Thats it, your done.
Now your probally thinking that this is really dangerous and not w orth the risk. When casting AP, your probally more likely to have it prematurely detonate then when pressing.
The good thing about casting is that if it does detonate when its being heated, you w ont be near it unlike when pressing. Another advantage is the higher density resulting in
highter VoD.
Oh, make sure the water doesnt boil or the acetone peroxide will explode after a minute or two.
Happy casting.

Interesting, does it work with HMTD?
[ June 17, 2002, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

If HMTD's mp is lower than its decomposition temp, then yes.I beilive HMTD decomposes at 74 or 75 degrees. I dont know the MP of MHTD but mabe a warm w ater bath could
be used.
0EZ0 June 18th, 2002, 12:32 AM

Sounds like a great idea! If the AP doesn't detonate from the heat.
Hopefully this 'cast' AP would be more stable than loose crystals of AP. Would this be true since the 'cast' AP would lose the characteristic of detonating from friction of crystals
rubbing together?
I'm not saying that Ap would become Safe from doing this, but at least reduce sensativity a bit.
[ June 17, 2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]
Mick June 18th, 2002, 03:28 AM

so i am assume that by doing this process you end up with a lump of AP which has "fused" itself together. so what happens if the lump of AP breaks in half?
would it not be like having a really big crystal of AP?
ALENGOSVIG1 June 18th, 2002, 03:58 AM

I though of that also, but w hy would it matter if its inside a sturdy tube?
The only way it would get broken when inside the tube is if the tube was crushed or bent.
PYRO500 June 18th, 2002, 04:03 AM

I think it might behave exactly like that, and even worse the crystal may expand/contract due to temp change meaning possible stress causing detonation. I did try melting AP a
very ling time ago (years and years) and I managed to melt a small amount in a jar lid and the crystal turned a dark brown color when cooled I didn't realize w hat happened at
first beacuse this w as my first experience with acetone peroxide and without much info at the time on it I was foolishly trying to set up a candle and lid to get it do explode. I
did find one practical use for this w itch was to take squares of coffie filter and have them wick up the liquid AP w itch when struck with a hammer w ould either explode or ignite
the paper and occasionally a little of both. Now recalling my foolishness when I w as young I see a possible method of impact detonation the whole crystal would be easily
crushed allowing for easy placement of a crystal that could be easily crushed on impact, by no means safe to produce but in much smaller quantities than in blasting caps.
nbk2000 June 18th, 2002, 08:59 AM

Could you use a bit of acetone/SP to act as a binder for the AP before heating it to boil off the acetone and solidify it in the detonator? This may serve the same purpose w ithout
the risk of fusing the AP.
Mick June 18th, 2002, 12:10 PM

sorry for being daft, but what does SP stand for again? i'm sure i know it, but i've drawn a complete mind blank.
i don't think i'll bother to try this one, the risk greatly out ways the advantage.
if you looking to increase density, then it w ould be easier to just combine AP with some acetone/nitrocellulose(sp?) - eg. ping pong balls
it would be a hell of alot safer too IMHO.
plasma June 18th, 2002, 12:49 PM

SP = Smokeless Powder
sinstar June 18th, 2002, 12:52 PM

S/P -smokeless powder, I think!
this has been said in the previous post. think before you post - Kingspaz
[ June 18, 2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]
Mick June 18th, 2002, 11:50 PM

oh, "duh!"
i knew that..
okay, cheers
Energy84 June 19th, 2002, 12:29 AM

Hmmm, has anybody tried adding SP or DBSP (Double Base Smokeless Powder) to the a solution of AP in acetone then filtering it again? I wonder how the end product would
perform in terms of sensitivity. No doubt, it would likely be powerful (sort of like the APAN mix previously suggested and subsequentially tested). Does anybody see any
potential problems with this?
I'm assuming that the AP w ill have already been washed and have 5% sodium bicarbonate content to reduce any remaining traces of acidity. My biggest w orry is with having
the AP recrystallise (sp?) into larger crystals.

I think that by melting the AP, it would act as one big crystal of AP. If it cracked in half there would be a good chance of detonation. But then, with the increased VOD due to
density, at least your hand should be relatively cleanly blown off as opposed to an inside-out bloody mess as would happen with BP.
You w ould want to be careful when melting it, it could very easily detonate accidently, and as someone stated the cast explosive could expand and shrink as its temperature
changes, making it more dangerous in that respect.
Im sure in some w ays it may be safer, but in other ways more dangerous. Would you w ant to snap a large block of cast AP in your hands?
nbk2000 June 19th, 2002, 09:12 AM

I could see casting pellets of AP and using them as impact detonators. A probe acts as a hammer to smash the pellet against an "anvil" built into the weapon.
You could try encasing the pellets in silicone to insulate them a bit from rough handling and shrinkage/expansion pressures.
Also, if your AP is very pure, then it should be more stable to such contraction/expansions than impure.
A-BOMB June 19th, 2002, 11:30 AM

NBK if you could even mass produce those pellets(and w here you thinking of using them to ignite the cap or using the pellet as the cap?) You could mass produce these buy
using a thin shrink wrap tubing that doesn't contract much, and putting the CTAP in the tube and sperating it into clumps and putting the hole assembly into the warm w ater.
The shrink wrap tube inbetween the AP clumps will shrink shut and allow you to cut the tube there making small plastic incased CTAP impact detonators. This shrink wrap tube
process is even how I make my quick match, I fill the tube with loose BP+ fine sawdust and tape off the ends and but in the water and its done.
nbk2000 June 20th, 2002, 12:23 PM

The pellets could be used either way, depending on the explosive/purpose they're intended for.
A good way to make a hundred pellets at a time w ould be to use a shotgun primer tray. It has a hundred wells, is slightly tapered so the pellets will fall out easily, and is made
of thick plastic.
Measure out a preweighed amount of AP into each well and float it in a pan of hot w ater. Voila'! AP pellets by the dozens. :)
Marbles June 20th, 2002, 08:47 PM

Alen,just wondering what kind of power[VOD] this cast AP had in comparison to normally pressed AP?Since it would nearly be at max. density the power should be pretty
aw esome.I have seen the difference betw een lightly pressed AP and AP crushed into a plastic tube and the difference in damage done is amazing.
ALENGOSVIG1 June 21st, 2002, 02:09 AM

I dont know. I detonated some dynamite with the cast ap.
[ June 21, 2002, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]
Mad Scientist June 22nd, 2002, 03:18 AM

Although at first this seems brilliant - I'm not going to try it. The idea of handling a large chunk of acetone peroxide scares me... I agree with PYRO500.
Also keep in mind that as the chunk of acetone peroxide that is your detonator warms/cools, it's not going to change temperature perfectly evenly at a constant rate. Say that
you have a warm cast acetone peroxide detonator. You walk outside with it, into the wintery air. The outside of the chunk of acetone peroxide will contract as it cools, *before*
the inside begins to cool and contract. Result: "spontaneous" detonation is likely to occur, due to the center of the chunk of acetone peroxide being compressed by the
contracting outer layer.
[ June 22, 2002, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Mad Scientist ]

OT - but I'm not going to start a new topic for this; Mad Scientist's sig got me thinking... has anyone in the scientific community every nitrated buckyballs (buckminster
fullerenes)? I don't think the energy density would even approach that of nitrocubanes since the larger ones have significant voids in them... but wouldn't that do w onders for
the detonatability in a PBX? A polynitrated energetic compound that with its own inherent microspheres... :) Any thoughts?
nbk2000 June 24th, 2002, 10:50 PM

I've read about research to develop a buckyball propellant that w ould have oxygen atoms trapped inside of the carbon cage of the buckyball.
Supposedly it would be the most pow erful propellant existing. Even useable as an explosive. But it's all military research so no details, natch.
Mad Scientist June 24th, 2002, 11:03 PM

These are the nitrogen buckballs I was referring to: < a href="http://ww w.llnl.gov/str/June01/Manaa.html" target="_blank">http://ww w.llnl.gov/str/June01/Manaa.html< /a>

Aha... both really interesting! On another page about carbon buckyballs, it mentions that the bonding is through sp2 hybridized orbitals, and that the structure resists double
bonding in the ring structures (at least the pentagons), which prevents the formation of delocalised pi systems, leaving a p orbital free at *every* carbon molecule without
having to put in the extra energy to disrupt an aromatic ring structure. So I imagine these suckers could be heavily nitrated... any reason why not?
spydamonkee July 28th, 2002, 05:57 AM

i w ouldnt be so much worried about the expansion and shrinkage of the AP... i w ould worry like fuck if your blasting cap body was made outa steel though as i would certainly
not want the hot expanded cap body to contract on the ap setting it off <img src="http://ww w.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon15.gif" alt= " - " />
not sure how likly it would be to happen but im not one to tempt fate :D
---
Just realized that i had said im not one to tempt fate yet one of my favorite hobbies is pyrotechnics and explosives < img src="http://w ww.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon18.gif"
alt=" - " />
[ July 28, 2002, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: spydamonkee ]
Archaeopteryx May 17th, 2003, 10:13 AM

Hi all,
I too have tried cast AP in the past, and found it very successful, how ever haven't actually tested it's sensitivity as yet - rather handled it very carefully;) . Today I finally got
around to doing a test:
Firstly the end of a straw w as melted over, forming a seal and was then filled with .5 grams of AP. A pot of water was boiled and immediately after removing from heat the
straw was immersed in the simmering water. One advantage of using a straw allows you to see the explosive melting and become transparent ~usually after about 20sec. The
straw was then removed and immediately placed under cool running water. The AP takes on a matte, opaque appearance. This charge w as then placed on an anvil onto which a
1Kg weight was released (from a distance). It was found the charge only detonated at heights above about 10cm - below this height the straw simply burst and a the cast AP
was crushed - resembling normal pow dered AP.
It in fact seems that as the AP recrystallises, it forms individual, distinctly separated crystals - not a single solid crystal as some have suggested - this would explain it's opaque
appearance after cooling and it's impact sensitivity almost equal to that of un-cast AP. As a sidenote I have found that diametric AP is about 2x LESS impact sensitive than
trimetric.
I am impressed by the apparent stability of cast AP and am going to continue using it due to the obvious advantage of greater density - pressed AP HALVES it's volume after
melting.
Tuatara May 18th, 2003, 07:06 PM

The cooling rate will affect the size of the crystals. I wonder if dropping the melted AP into liquid nitrogen would result in amorphous AP. That w ould be an interesting
experiment...
Efraim_barkbit May 19th, 2003, 02:34 PM

This thing about casting the AP seems like a good idea, if its not more sensitive than regular AP.
I tried to melt some over a lighter in a spoon, and indeed it was much more pow erful than the same amount loose pow der (bigger flame and poof)
How did you know you got the dimer version when you compared dimer/trimer?
How much does the sensitivity increase as the crystals get bigger? I w ant to know , because in my last batch, the crystals was much bigger than they were the other tree times i
have made it.
it was almost like fine sand.

'I tried to melt some over a lighter in a spoon'
VERY BAD IDEA. note how alengosvig uses water. it will never reach any more than 100*C. spoon being metal w ill conduct heat very w ell, flame being alot more than 100*C
will likely overheat the AP. very, very risky indeed.
a_bab May 20th, 2003, 08:20 AM

Kingspaz is right, believe me. I also put in fire a spoon full of AP in order to get the big flame, and instead I got ringing ears, a huge scare and a bent spoon. You know , the AP
was too dried...
Arthis May 20th, 2003, 09:35 AM

Of course, normally it would instantly detonate, or fuse if there's still water in. When putting a spoon over a lighter you readily have a point of fusion that forms, since spoons
are very thick.
This cause a few AP crystals to dry and detonate, and you know how it ends. Don't forget a flame from a lighter is several hundreds C. (I should check the exact temp, just to
know).
[EDIT]: I saw that butane lighter can reach 1300 F, so i should be around 700C --> much more than AP decomposing poing :)
Efraim_barkbit May 20th, 2003, 02:17 PM

I used only a very small amount, a pile about 5x5 mm, a couple of mm high, not exactly something that could bend a spoon.
I never light amounts nearly as big as spoonfulls without some kind of delay to get the time to putmy fingers in my ears :D

if that little section of AP detonates it WILL leave you with ringing ears. your risk to take, just don't come crying w hen you have hearing damage and nervous system damage to
the hand holding the spoon. metal is solid, solids don't compress and thus conduct the shockw ave --> sensory overload and damaged nerves, possibly permanent.
Nevermore June 7th, 2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Archaeopteryx
CUT
The straw was then removed and immediately placed under cool running water. The AP takes on a matte, opaque appearance. This charge was then placed on an anvil onto
which a 1Kg weight was released (from a distance). It w as found the charge only detonated at heights above about 10cm - below this height the straw simply burst and a the
cast AP was crushed - resembling normal pow dered AP.
It in fact seems that as the AP recrystallises, it forms individual, distinctly separated crystals - not a single solid crystal as some have suggested - this would explain it's opaque
appearance after cooling and it's impact sensitivity almost equal to that of un-cast AP. As a sidenote I have found that diametric AP is about 2x LESS impact sensitive than
trimetric.
CUT
I am not so sure putting it under cold water is a good idea, the thermal stress could be enought to set off some cristal so detonating the whole charge, anyw ay allowing it to get
cold over a long time could bring to the formation of big cristal that are something not w anted...anyway i think due to his volatily (i don't have any data about that but i guess
so) there will be a considerable loss of mass during the cast operation, and casting in a closed container could led to the recristallization of the Ap on the sides and surfaces of
the case. I've dreamt melting with an electric resistance and it worked perfectly, even dreamt using a fairly small amount, what makes me thinks is that if some w ater remain
inside the casted Ap w ill be extremely hard to dry it out...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > tm d d
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View Full Version : tmdd

I've searched on this topic but nothing really interresting cam e u p .
I hate to post new topics but I have a few questions about it.
I found the recipe on Mr. Cool's site it's made with 37%formaline urea 50%sulphuric acid and 30%H2O2(or equivalent)
Tetram e t h e l e n e d i p e r o x i d i c a r b a m ide
............. -(CH2)-O -O -(CH2)-..........

..CO (NH2)-N .....................N-CO(NH2)
............. -(CH2)-O -O -(CH2)-..........
T h i s s h o u l d b e m o r e s t a b l e t h a n h m td as Mr. C ool suggests as the N ato m i s l e s s s t r e s s e d t h a n w i t h h m t d a s a n y o n e

experience with this explosive
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 1 9 , 2 0 0 2 , 1 1 : 4 7 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : a n d r e a s ] < / s m all>
andreas June 20th, 2002, 10:08 AM

W hell if nobody is interrested please d e l e t e t h e p o s t

i'm interested! :)
I will get som e Urea this week , and try it out.

Does anyone has the Brisance and det. VoD?

I want to know m ore about it too !
I can get Form aline a nd H2SO 4 and H2O2 (30%) is allready present in m y kitchen :o )

S e e m s that form aline (form a l d e h y d e s o l u t i o n ) i s a s c o m m o n a s m uck in the netherlands. Is it true you can get it at cam ping
stores as a desinfectant?
Anyway, if yo u have methanol it's very easy to m ake it yourself.
Madog555 June 20th, 2002, 04:17 PM

hahahaha, u can extract urea from your piss...

Here in the Netherlands you can get Form aline in agrarical (this is not good engelish...i think :( )shops for farm ers.
Yes, it's used as a desinfectant. I can get it in 40% (I'am not shure how pure it is)

but....how can you m a k e F o r m aline fro m M e t h a n o l ?
I have Methanol. Here you can buy it here in a outdoor shop.
It's used for alcoholic fireburner.
If I can make it from Methanol, than I know it m ust be pure <im g border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]" src="wink.gif" />

i think you need to carry out partial oxidation with potassium dichrom ate and concentrated H2SO4. the procedure re quires
h e a t i n g u n d e r r e f l u x s o i t s n o t t h a t e a s y f o r t h e h o m e c h e m i s t u n l e s s y o u h a v e a ccess to the glassware. there will a lso be
m ethanoic acid im purities.

W hell I see a flaw in m y chem ical structure the N atoms should not be there I think I just presume d it wa sort of sim ilar to
h m td and in a way it is. But m aybe Mr. Cool has tried it as it is from his website
DarkAngel June 21st, 2002, 04:53 PM

Sim p l e R e d m a d e T M D D , h e t o l d m e t h at it burned like CTAP and it's dea d presse d very easely he tought that it whas a bad
explosive.
Madog555 June 21st, 2002, 04:58 PM

hey, is Sim ply RED around anym ore?
andreas June 21st, 2002, 06:16 PM

W hell I would try it but as I ca n't get urea that easily I think I will trust sim ply red ' s d a t a a n d a b a n d o n t h i s e x p l o s i v e , u n t i l I
find some easy sorce of urea.
PS mister evil did you try it an d if so how did it went.
a_bab June 22nd, 2002, 12:28 AM

I chatted with Sim p l y R e d o n e m o n t h a g o a n d h e t o l d m e that he had an accident involvin g AP. And he also had other accident
for which he (he's parents) had to pay over 100 bucks and these problem s m a d e h i m leaving the pyro field forever. And he is
also very occupied be cause he is learning for the university.
I rem ember that he said about TMDD that the report produced is weaker than the a BP report.
Madog555 June 22nd, 2002, 12:43 AM

d a m n, that sucks. i used to chat with him alot.
DarkAngel June 22nd, 2002, 06:36 AM

The last tim e i chatted with him was this m onth .
a_bab do you mean the acid over the car thing or did he have another accident?

C o m e on guys, this thread isn't a missing persons inquiry...
I never tried TMDD in the end, because I heard about h ow badly it sucked from Simply Re d ' s e x p e riments.
vulture June 24th, 2002, 04:34 AM

Heating copper wool till it's black and than dum ping it into m e t h a n o l s h o u l d p r o d u c e m eth anal (=formaldehyde). You'll have to
repeat it several time s and watch out for the vapors.

i g u e s s C uO will work to(as C uO is formed when heating Cu until it becom e s d a r k )

C u O + 2CH3O H ---&g t; 2C H 3 O + H 2 O + C u
is th at right?...i've never heard of this reaction...but then i haven't heard of m any <img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink]"
src="wink.gif" />

Either that, o r m a y b e t h e C u O is just a catalyst in the dehydrogenation of the alcohol? I don't know.
If it was just a catalyst then you could probably get a nice continuous setup put together to make aldehyde s dirt-cheap...
But if the CuO was a reagent then you'd have to keep replacing it, which is a m ajor hassle for lazy people like m e <im g
border="0" title="" alt="[W ink ]" src="wink.gif" />

ah, true. but not if yo u m ade your KNO 2 via copper powder :)
KNO3 + Cu ---> KNO2 + Cu O
edit: forgot to m ention the actual point - CuO is made in the process :)
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 8 , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 3 7 P M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : k i n g s p a z ] < / s m all>

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Flash powder m e a s u r m e n t s
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View Full Version : Flash powder measurments
Anthony Privratsky June 19th, 2002, 04:48 PM

I h a v e 1 p o u nd of Ge rm an Black Flake Aluminum powder (600 m e s h ) . I a l s o h a v e a p o u n d o f P o t a s s i u m Perchlorate. Im
m akin a really powerful flash powder but i cant find a good scale ne where around. I heard another post reply that equal
a m ounts of each would balance out rig ht...
1 part- PP
1 part- Al
C o u l d s o m e o n e g i v e m e the right m e a s u r e m ents... density... or weight of each to m a k e b a l a n c e d f l a s h ?
Helvetica"> <hr /></blockquote>Why live if your not a pyro?

why wouldn't you post this in the topic i already posted? Now you get HED kewl

Anthony Privratsky, fuckin hell. what th e dog fuck is this?!
have you read the rules? this is your first post and like almost all first po st new topics is fucking useless. if you have a
q u e s t i o n a s k in the relevent topic allready open.
this is you official warning. fuck up again and you will be banned for life.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > New HMTD synthesis?
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View Full Version : New HMTD synthesis?
DBSP June 22nd, 2002, 12:31 PM

Today I was browsing through the Swedish infomania files. I was looking at the info about TMDD and at the same time I read the HMTD info while I was at it. Then I noticed a
second procedure for HMTD that I hadn't noticed before, that one involved glacial acetic acid, hydrogen peroxide and hexamethylenetetramine.
<img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/HMTD_chems_by_DBSP.JPG" alt=" - " />
The synthesis goes like this: 10g of HMTA is dissolved in 50ml of glacial acetic acid and when the HMTD has completely dissolved 25ml of 35% H2O2 is added to the mixture
and the whole thing is swirled around for a minute or two to ensure that the chemicals are properly mixed. This liquid it then allowed to stand at room temperature for about 4-
5 hours. After that it's just to wash and nutrolise the usual way.
<img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/HMTD_by_DBSP.JPG" alt=" - " />
The good thing about this synthesis is that it's extremely fast and has a good yield compared to the usual synthesis. The yield is stated to be 75-80% of the theoretically value,
the normal method has only got a yield of about 60% of the theoretically value. And it is much easier since you don't need to cool the reactants since the temperature only
rises 5-10 degrees, if you would need to coll it simply dipping the vessel into some cool water would suffice.
At first I didn't belive this method to be as good as it was stated to be so I decided to have a try. I simply crushed one tablet of esbit and added it to 15ml of glacial acetic acid
and swirled it untill all hex had dissolved, note that I didn't purify it first but it allmost seemes like the additives dissolves as well because there wasn't much left after a while.
Then I added 8ml of 35% H2O2. I didn't experiense any temperature rise at all but that might depend on that fact that there wasn't any great volumes invlolved in the
experiment. In the pics below you can see the formed HMTD one hour into the reaction, I was very supprised when I first had a look at it. All that HMTD in only one hour. I'm
not used to make HMTD but the times I have done it the reaction allways have been very slow and the yields haven't excactly been very satisfying either.
This off course the first experiment but if it workes as good as this in greater volumes as well I will definately abandon AP as my primary primary. The reason to why I haven't
been using HMTD has been that it's to much work and has low yields. This definately changes that.
<img src="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/HMTD2_by_DBSP.JPG" alt=" - " />
If this has been discussed here previously I appologise, if it hasn't which I think I hope this can help others. Has anyone heard of this method before? And if someone has acces
to the chems needed please try this and see if you can confirm my (probable) succes.

Seems like a good method, although essentially similar to the usual one.
Hmmm... this reminds me. Has anyone tried to make HMTD from ammonium sulphate, H2O2 and formaldehyde? It's in KIBC.

It's filtered and is drying now. The washing is what takes most of the "work" time it took several liters to get all the acid out of the HMTD but this isn't a very big problem, it's
just to set the tap running at the same speed as the water leaves the filter and have it running for 15 mins or so and then nutrulise and rinse with acetone to make it dry a bit
faster. I belive that you might be able to go from seperate chems to finnished explosive ready to use in less than 7 hours maby even 6.
The major advantage I see with this method is that it takes very little effort to get it running. I find it very boring and tme consuming to set up an ice bath and keep the temp
where it shuld be. This method saves a lot of time and if the yields are better at that it's great.
Madog555 June 22nd, 2002, 06:35 PM

hmmm, looks good. too bad vinegar isnt concentrated, if i do this i will have to concentrate some vinegar via mega's method. i cant get citric acid so i have never made HMTD.
i tried with HCl twice but i didnt get anything <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
Einstein June 22nd, 2002, 07:12 PM

You have to have organic acid to make HMTD or it won't work.
Not true, I used to use HCl when I made it.
[ June 23, 2002, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]
xoo1246 June 22nd, 2002, 07:13 PM

I have read about this method too, never got around trying it. I have a couple of liters of acetic acid (60 %), maybe I should try it.
DBSP, have you checked your mail?
Only problem with this reaction is that it stinks. :p
Madog555 June 22nd, 2002, 07:24 PM

it will work einstein, but not reliably

In the text I found this synthesis it says that using 24% acid(special brand availible in sweden) might cause the reaction to get to hot, I don't see why but never the less. Using
megas method for acetic acid will work very well.
A possible reason to why you didn't succed with HCl might be becuse the HMTA got decomposed by the HCl. In the text they state that: "HCl is incompatible with HMTA" and
further thay say that mineral acids doesn't work very well either. And that ascorbic acid might cause allmost explosive reactions.
BTW I just weighted the HMTD, 3 grams. Is it correct that one mole of HMTA is equal to one mole of HMTD? In that case 3g HMTA is 0,021 moles that would in turn mean that
the ammount of HMTD shuld be 208*0,021=4,368g 3/4,368=0,68. not to bad. The only flaw is that my scale only is sensitive to one gram, thus a 46-92% yield. I need a
better scale. I'll try a larger ammount soon to lower the percentage errors.
Xoo time to check your mail. Good night folks.
[ June 22, 2002, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: DBSP ]
xoo1246 June 22nd, 2002, 08:04 PM

Maybe if it's cooled, anyhow you should get a more accurate scale, I bough one a few weeks ago, it's accurate down to .1 grams, can measure up to 225 grams and weren't
that expensive.
Look here if you are interested:
<a href="http://www.sagitta.se/humatutr.html" target="_blank">http://www.sagitta.se/humatutr.html</a>
I quoted that text(well, almost :) ) in another post, remember?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />HCl and HTMD is imcopatible,
ascorbic
acid too and mineral acids.... stick to citric or concentrated acetic acid. <hr /></blockquote>
Polverone June 23rd, 2002, 02:14 AM

This method seems to work very nicely! I used 10 g hexamine, 50 ml glacial acetic acid, and 40 ml H2O2 (since I know my H2O2 is pretty high concentration but I'm not
positive how high). I let it react for about 5 hours. It took only about 40 minutes to start seeing HMTD precipitate out. I've filtered it and washed it with potassium carbonate
solution and about 2 liters of water. When it dries I will post my yield. In any case it seems much nicer than the citric route, which always gave me trouble. It's faster too.
Thanks for drawing my attention to this method.
(edit)
Okay, it's dry now. I got 4.0 g of HMTD from 10 g of hexamine. The temperature rose very little during the process. Some time in the future I'll try a batch twice as large.
[ June 24, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Polverone ]
inferno June 23rd, 2002, 02:26 AM

Citric acid is sold at any supermarket, grocery or milk bar even here. Its just a food additive, no restrictions here. Madogg, are you sure you dont have access to it? Im pretty
sure if you can get sulfuric (needed to purify vinegar to glacial acetic acid) you could get citric?
THis method sounds better than the citric acid one, however my only source for glacial acetic is bloody expensive chemical supply places, so its better for me to use citric, which
is like 2 dollars for 300 grams. I have 0 access to sulfuric (again, without paying exorbitant prices or opening up car batteries, something that for me is a bit hard) so i cant
purify vinegar.
DBSP June 24th, 2002, 01:21 PM

I've aalso made a larger batch now. I used 9g of hexamine and 50ml of GAA and 25ml H2O2. I got 14g(+/-1g) from that batch.
Pulverone, something must have gone wrong with your batch, what kind of scale do you use?
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/HMTD_yield.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/HMTD_yield.JPG</a>

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/goran_persson_and_14g_of_HMTD_by_DBSP.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/
goran_persson_and_14g_of_HMTD_by_DBSP.JPG</a>
Polverone June 24th, 2002, 01:52 PM

Something gone wrong? I was actually pleased with my results, given that I got only 3.7 g of HMTD from 14 grams of hexamine using the citric acid method from
Megalomania's site. I see that there is great room for improvement, though :) It's interesting (to me) that the acetic acid HMTD came out like fine sand, whereas the citric acid
HMTD is superfine, like powdered sugar.
Part of the problem may be that I don't precisely know what percentage H2O2 I have on hand. It seems quite potent - it's sold as part of a 2-part wood bleach - but I'm not
sure just how much H2O2 is in there. It seems to behave very similarly to 35% peroxide that I had before (also obtained as wood bleach), but I can't find a good MSDS for this
brand. Perhaps I should ask for one at the place I buy it, next time I restock. I will try another batch, I guess, and not add an extra 15 ml of H2O2 "just for safety's sake."
Maybe the dilution actually lowered my yields.
I use an electronic balance with 400 g capacity and 0.1 g resolution.
I will try once more and see if experience improves my yields.

I suspected that it was the H2O2 that was the problem. I hope that you find somehing about your conc, since that would greately improve your yields. This method has actually
made me go from AP to HMTD as my primary explosive.

Im pretty sure that the wood bleach is 30% or higher. I made a batch of AP with it, and the whole solution was crystals (nice!). Wood bleach comes in 2 250ml bottles part A is
H202 and part B is caustic soda.
Just after I bought the bleach kit, I opened the box and, one of the bottle lids wasn't screwed on properly (it was leaking a bit). I didn't notice untill I had small bleach white
spots on my fingers. :mad:
[ June 24, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Rat Bastard ]

Hmm, yield is certainly an issue!
BrAiNFeVeR June 24th, 2002, 05:48 PM

That's what I like about it too, that and it makes great putty with most kinds of binder. (Ap leaves crystals visible sometimes on the edges)
Since glacial acetic acid is not too simple for me to aquire, and if I get it, it will be far more expensive then the citric acid. Altough the shorter reaction time is good, I kind of
dislike the larger crystals ...
Maybe you can alter crystal size by dissolving and making it precipate out very fast ?

What solvents are HMTD suluble in? Not these at least.
grams suluble in 100g of solvent at 20 centigrades:

H2O--0,1
C2H5OH--0,01
diethylether--0,017
carbondisulfide--0,01
carbontetrachloride--0,013
anhydrus acetic acid--0,14
chloroform--0,64
C2H6O--0,33
glycoldiacetate--0,9
(info taken from the Swedish infomania files)
Madog555 June 24th, 2002, 09:50 PM

does anyone have any idea if ASA (asprin) will work as a catylist?
that would be interesting if it did

Anything's possible; it's a weak acid.
Kekule June 25th, 2002, 07:00 PM
I assume that almost every dilute acid would work in order to create HMTD from Hexamine. This is shown by the reaction process of the fromation of HMTD.
The direct method to synthesize HMTD would be the acid catalyzed peroxidation of two mol Formaldehyde-Hydrate to Dihydroxymethyleneperoxide and the subsequent
condensation of three mol of Dihydroxymethyleneperoxide with two mol of NH4+ Ions to HMTD followed by the catalyst restoring protolysis of two mol H+
Equtations:
1. Formation of Formaldeyde-Hydrate
H2CO + H20 -----> H2C(OH)2
2. Peroxidation of Formaldehyde-Hydrate
2 H2C(OH)2 + H202 ---(H3O(+))----> H-O-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-H + 2H2O
3. Condensation of Dihydroxymethylperoxide with Ammonium Ion
2 NH4(+) 3 H-O-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-H ---->(+)H-N-(CH-O-O-CH2)3-N-H(+) + 6H20
4. Protolysis
(+)H-N-(CH-O-O-CH2)3-N-H(+) ----> HMTD +2 H(+)
If you synthesize HMTD with Hexamine in an acidic solution, the Formaldehyde-Hydrate and the Ammoniumions are produced by the hydrolysis of HMTD:
C6H12N4 + 12 H20 --(H3O+)--> 6 H2C(OH)2 + 4 NH4(+)
Therefore, every diluted acid could be used, because there are the neccessaty H2O molecules and the H3O(+) ions needed by the hydrolysis of HMTA and by the peroxidation-
reaction. One question is, how high the concentration of the Hydroniumions has to be in order to achieve the fastest reaction velociety and which concentration of H3O(+)-ions
leads to the decomposition of the O-O link in the peroxy-group
I use sulfuric acid with c(w)= 38 %( meaning ordinary battery acid). The reaction is completed in approx. 20 min(!) when using this acid.
An other question is, wich acids should be used in order to get a stable product, meaning that the very small percentage of irremoveable traces of the acid or of the salt formed
by the neutralisation of the acid have no negative effect on the stability.

madog555, i think that may work but not the way i think you think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
the acetyl salycylic acid will by hydrolised by water to form salycylic acid and acetic (ethanoic) acid. the phenol group left on the SA will donate H+ to catylise the reaction as
will the CH3COOH.
Madog555 June 25th, 2002, 11:09 PM

ok, i doubt it will work then. it was just a thought.

Hmm, not entirely sure I follow, but hey... :)

Whell you could add more water as I think this will cause it not to detonate and then crush them but I dodn't know for shure
VX June 26th, 2002, 12:29 PM

Well a few times I have found a solid bed of AP or HMTD at the bottom of a flask. However for me it has always consisted of tiny crystals that have fallen on top of each other,
and somehow just meshed together.
Don't worry about it too much as long as they are wet. If I were you I would simply get as much of the acidic mix out of the flask as possible, then use a glass rod or whatever
to gently break the lump apart. (Sometimes this can actually be quite hard!). After removing them from the flask you can descide whether you want to keep the it :) , or if the
crystals are too big, and need to be disposed of :( .
If you really dont want to do this you could dissolve the HMTD in a solvent, and then just pour the mix away.

What solvent? HMTD seemes insuluble in most common things. just fill the flask with cold water and gently break up the crystaline mass. I you would like to protect yourself
put the flask in a wodden box and wear the usual protection. Use a long L-shaped stick to break the mass up.

Wouldn't a water solution would just increase the mechanical coupling between voids in the mass?

Oops, sorry for the double-post...
viemane June 28th, 2002, 04:15 PM

DBSP: where did you buy your 35% H2o2. i havent fin it just 19,5, for some reason they have removed it in every shops I have checked.
Iam also thinking about if my 19,5% lower the yields in both ATCP and HMTD syntheses, especially in HMTD. I have to let the mixture stand in 24hour(in the proceduer i
use(citricacid)the suggest 3hour for 30-35%H2O2)
The last time i tried this I got, cant remember exactly, but I think 10g out of 16g hexamine and correctly ammounts of the other chemicals (45g citricacid) Is this normal? (is
my penis normal :) )
An other problem may be that if use acetic acid 99% or 100%, I think, it may be a greater risk for a run away reaction as I have more water in my H202 and that is the same
thing that if I had used weaker acid and 35% H2O2.
I don't think that I can buy the 35% anymore since the highest canc allowed by law is 20% now in sweden. I bought the H2O2 in a small paint shop. Are you from sweden?
xoo1246 June 30th, 2002, 04:12 PM

Hmm, I bought 35 or 30% H2O2 at the pharmacy some time ago, then I bought 19.5% from a paint shop, they said that it was the highest concentration allowed. DBSP, check
your mail.
Helos June 30th, 2002, 06:13 PM

I had the same thoughts about H2O2, in paint shops they said that they werent able to sell higer than 19,5% any longer, what can be the reasons of this news, I have heard
that it was because bottles of H20" exploded or broked (pressure from released oxygen), or could it be too stop people from making the dangerous ACTP, maybee.
If it is a law that more than 19,5 cant be sold longer, it is just to forget to obtain 30-35%.
This is a problem when you synthezize HMTD, I have only used the citricacid method, and there the additional water makes the reaction slower, and I also think you get a
lower yeild even if you wait for a greet time? When you use aceticacid as catalyst the problem is even greeter or at least you have to add more acid if the reaction is not going
to be violent, still I dont know why this can happen (to little or to weak acetic acid in the synthesis), anyone who knows
When I checked, this forum I was chocked about how many Swedes that was here, beacause sweden is not a wery big country.
Anyway, it may be boring for many others to discuss swedish matters, as this or how N-28 is going to be used, but for me this is wery useful information ofcourse

BTW, I also used esbit for my HMTD, but now I have find a commercial source for HMTA, it is both cheaper and better HMTA.
DBSP, check your mail, it is about N-28 mm.
Okay, now its luckily sent and I have luckily followed Kingpaz advice!
[ June 30, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Helos ]

I'll check my source of the 35% this week to see if they still sell it or if they've got the 20% now.
Helos, send me a mail with your questions about N28 and I'll try to help you. We aren't to many swedes here only 3 active posters at this time.

Helos, don't be offended the following it is constructive critisism.
1. don't double post but use the edit function if you forget to add somthing.
2. the correct abbreviation is CTAP - cyclo triacetone peroxide.

1.Okay Kingpaz, if I grew old on this forum I will learn, I hadnt noticed that you could edit sent messages.
2. I cant agree that CTAP is the correct name, it is (acording to IUPAC 3,3,6,6,9,9-hexamethyle-1,2,4,5,7,8-
hexaoxocyklononan) Its on to hard to write so we use letter combinations for this peroxide I have seen many: ACTP, TCAP, AP TATP and others Acetoneperoxide is a bad
name because it can be misstaken for other substance but if you choose ACTP, TCAP or CTAP, what the hell the are all good, but ofcourse other people have to now what its.
I dont want to mess about names, its boring...

like i said, constructive critisism. i was trying to help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

okay, forgive me if I sounded agressive or something like that...

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > C ompression in firecrackers?
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View Full Version : Compression in firecrackers?
Pyroboy D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 06:44 AM

Hi guys, it's been a while since I've posted, but I've still been ch ecking out what's going on every now and again... Anyway, I'm
goin g to be m aking some big flash bangs for new years eve with KC LO 4/Al flash and I wasn't sure if I shou ld com press the
flash or not. I've always filled my crackers up about 3/4 full, but it's a bitch to fill them 3/4 full and then try and get an end
plug to set in the end with out compressing the flash powder. Does anyone know how I can solve this problem ? M a y b e s o m e
tissue befor the end plug? I'm only asking this because I think I rem e m b e r r e a d i n g s o m ewhere th at the powder for a cracker
should not be pressed in. Anyway, any help would be nice. Thanks, Pyroboy....
RTC D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 08:28 AM

If you press it hard enough (serveral tons PSI) chances are you'll have a very fast burning rocket if not a cracker. But I doubt
anyone by ju st brute force can com p r e s s s o m e t h i n g t o e v e n a t o n P S I .
------------------
Madog555 D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 08:58 AM

you want to have room for exp ansion in the caseing, it will make a bigger bang. so i would sugest filling it 1 /2 full.
------------------
Anthony D e c e m ber 23rd, 2001, 03:33 PM

Yes, definitely half full and loose allows the deflageration front to spread through the com position faster. You could try gluing
in a solid end plug (d owel etc), or using a solid glue endplug (hot glue is good for this), or if you want to use a setting filler of
s o m e kind, tack in a disk of card to the correct depth in the casing with g lue and spread the filler on top of the disk.
Or m aybe cut the end of the tube into several tabs, fold them and apply glue. A lenghways binding of tape helps th e m h o l d
m ore pressure.
Pyroboy D e c e m ber 24th, 2001, 10:23 AM

O k t h a n k s a l o t g u y s a n d t h a n k s a l o t A n t h o n y y o u r s u g g e s t i o n s a r e g o o d http://theforum .virtuala v e . n e t / u b b / s m ilies/sm ile.gif
Thanks Pyroboy...
Kdogg D e c e m ber 25th, 2001, 01:24 AM

Rtc, can I quote you : "If you press it hard enough (serveral tons PSI) chances are you'll have a very fast burning rocket if n ot
a cracker" I dont know if you have any knowele dge of flash powder, but correct me if im wrong, if his flash powder is worth a
crap it could self confine very easly causing a pretty bad accident.
------------------
Monkeym an
Anthony D e c e m ber 25th, 2001, 10:26 AM

I want to know what a "Ton Pounds Square Inch" is... Unless "Ton" is used in its "many" d efinition.
Donutty D e c e m ber 28th, 2001, 04:21 PM

Self confine?? That'd be useful!
Do you m e a n s e l f - c o m bust? I have never heard of anything self-confining, let alone knowing how it would do it.
------------------
RTC D e c e m ber 28th, 2001, 06:15 PM

Kdogg, in reply:
I've not toyed with flash as much as m any others. But it's to my minority knowled ge that if you press the flash to a certain
extent it'll form a solid, and just burn allbeit extreamly fast.
An example into what I mean is BP, bursts whe n confined, burns when solid.
------------------

I've cut open several blackpowder firecrackers and found that they are entirely filled like this
|wood dust|blackpowder|wood dust|

(i'm not sure if it's wood dust, could be fine clay also)
and it's all packed together pretty tight.

L a d i e s & g e n tlemen let m e refresh the m eaning of the word "self-confine". Ex: Most flashpowders will self-confine when they
are ignited in big am ounts.. m eaning if they are set off in big am ounts they'll explode vio lently without any confinem ent at
all!! The "critical weight" as it's called varies from flashpowder to flashpowder. Some Chlorate flashpowders with very fine Al fx.
G e r m a n B l a c k a l u m inium will selfconfine = explode without confinem ent in am ount as low as 5g <
The critical weight for BP is as far as I remem ber lots of kg's!!!

I think he's using PSI to abbreviate "PER Square Inch" and not "POUNDS per Square Inch".
Agent Blak January 6th, 2002, 05:17 PM

M y s e l f a n d a n o t h e r o n e o f m y crew m a d e s o m ething that goes against everything all of you are saying.
W e use a 1 1/2" piece of ABS 4" long, Polyeste r resin was the cap. after it had cured we used News print wadding po ured in
s o m e P r y d e x t a m e d i t a n d f u s e d w a d d e d a n d c a p p e d i t o n t h e o t h e r e n d . let it cure. The whole thing was splintered(shards
leng th ways)
just thought you all should know.
MacCleod January 7th, 2002, 01:04 AM

I also know a guy who makes BP 'crackers that he fills completely,tamps the hell out of,and they are loud!.Buying the chem 's
for flash is usually m ore cost-effective,though,as it takes so much less flash to m a k e a g o o d b a n g w i t h .
O h , p y r o b o y - i f y o u u s e a l o n g e o u g h t u b e , a b i t o f t i s s u e in the ends work s great(especially if you u se a side-fuse).I fill m ine
about 1/3rd. to 1/2 full (depending on the powder) without tam ping,and plug the ends with 5/16th's of an inch of hot glue.
[ J a n u a r y 0 7 , 2 0 0 2 : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : M a c C leod ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Plastic bonded HTMD
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View Full Version : Plastic bonded HTMD
xoo1246 June 23rd, 2002, 08:44 AM

I extracted som e blu-tack binder som e t i m e a g o , n o w i n a d r e a m I have tried to use it together with HTMD.
I dissolved 0 .1 gram s of blu tack binder in execess gasoline, wh e n d i s s o l v e d I a d d e d 0 . 9 g r a m s o f H T M D i n s m a l l p o r t i o n s a n d
m ixed carefully. Then the clumpy mixture was placed on a glas plate where the gasoline evaporated for a while.
I used my dream - camera to take two pictures of the result:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com /~u47802930/BPHTMD01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com / ~ u 4 7 8 0 2 9 3 0 /
BPHTMD01.jpg</a>
BPHTMD02.jpg</a>
T h e r e s u l t i n g B P X c a n b e m o l d e d i n t o a n y s h a p e a n d d o e s n ' t f a l l a p a r t e a s y . O ne problem is that it doesn't attach to
surfaces(m aybe with som e oil in it). But m aybe it will find use in caps since it m ight have a higer density(?), less friction and
shock sensitive.
However, ma ny questions rem ains unanswered, can it burn to detonation in a cap reliably?, what is the density?, etc.
If it doesn't work in caps, it might find use in m inature shaped charges initated by crystaline HTMD for those who hasn't got
acce ss to PETN and other top of the list explosives.
Now(as usuall), any com m e n t e n t s a n d i d e a s ?
zaibatsu June 23rd, 2002, 10:04 AM

That looks very good xoo, but how would it increase the density of the HTMD - you're m ixing it with another substance. It can't
b e m o r e d e n se than straight HTMD pressed, ca n it?
endotherm June 23rd, 2002, 11:32 AM

i think it could becom e a bit denser if the platicizer has a higher density than the HMTD. W h y n o t m e a s u r e t h e d e n s i t y ,
sacrifice a piece, m easure it's mass with a scale, and then put it in gradu ated cylinder full of water to record it's volu m e .
Density = Mass/Volume, and compare that with the density of straight HMTD.
mongo blongo June 23rd, 2002, 12:10 PM

S o u n d s g o o d . I ' m surprised it doesn't attach to surfaces very well. In my experim ents it's very goo d for this. The only problem
I had is that it tends to fluff up quite a bit so you have to com press it with your fingers. It also has excellent elastic properties.
It will definitely be less friction and shock sensitive. It won't have a higher density because by adding the binder you are
decreasing the density.
I'm not sure if it can m ake the D to D transition if conta ined or not. You will have to try it.
It could be a good plastic explosive if detonate d with a cap but again you will have to try it and see.
Good luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[W ink ]" src="wink.gif" />
zaibatsu June 23rd, 2002, 12:24 PM

e n d o t h e r m , i t m a y m a k e t h e r e s u l t i n g e x p l o s i v e s - p u t t y m i x m ore dense than just straight, pressed HTMD, but that matters
not, because the plasticiser will lower the VOD. The density of the HTMD is what m atters.
endotherm June 23rd, 2002, 12:47 PM

True, of course the density of the HTMD will lower sim p l y b e c a u s e t h e r e i s t h e s a m e a m o u nt of HMTD distributed throughout a
larger volume, but i though th e question here was asking will the density of the explosive/putty m ixture be of a higher density
than HMTD a lone, and this question is still dependant o n the com parison of the densities of the explosive/putty m ixture and
pure HMTD.
He also wasn't asking about the VOD, just the density, whether that would lower o r raise the VO D is obviously im portant, but
irrelevant to the question at hand.
<sm a l l > [ J u n e 2 3 , 2 0 0 2 , 1 1 : 4 9 A M : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : e n d o t h e r m ] < / s m a l l >
xoo1246 June 26th, 2002, 01:55 PM

O k , s o I h a d a n o t h e r d a y d r e a m , pressed the PB HTMD(1 gram ) into a cap, didn't m easure the density, but it comp ressed very
well (stupid of m e not to measure it, I know!). I dug it down in my garden in contact with a sm a l l s t o n e a n d d e t o n a t e d i t . T h e
earth liften a bit, almost no sound, m uch like when I have tried crystaline HTMD. I dug it up and yes, it had detonated and the
were tiny fragm ents(found only a few, probably from the place the upper part of the cap with no HTMD in contact with the walls)
and the stone was da maged. Here are the pictures:
BPHTMD03.jpg</a>
BPHTMD04.jpg</a>
BPHTMD05.jpg</a>

W ell Xoo, you've certainly spooked m e.
xoo1246 June 26th, 2002, 03:59 PM

It got help from o n e o f m y standard ignitors, a pice of a plastic straw filled with m atch head com p o s i t i o n . T h u s i t h a d s o m e
help via high pressure and great heat. But it would prob ably have detonated if the iron strand had been directly in the
PBHTMD, I tried to burn a sm all am o u n t a c o u p l e o f d a y s a g o a n d i t f l a s h e d v e r y f a s t , n o t a s f a s t a s p u r e H T M D , b u t f a s t a n d
m ore yellow due to the plastic binders carbon a tom s I a ssum e.
xoo1246 July 9th, 200 2, 04:27 PM
Hm m, I seem to have typed HTMD, when it's supposed to be HMTD all over this forum . Anyway, co u l d t h i s c o m p o s i t i o n b e u s e d
in detonating cord?
mongo blongo July 9th, 200 2, 11:35 PM

As long as it can m aintain a self propa gating shock wave then yes.

Xoo - its HexaMethyleneTriperoxideDiamine HMTD.
T h i s s o u n d s p r o m ising, it looks good too. Did you separate the binder just by placing in petrol (gasoline)?
xoo1246 July 13th, 20 02, 08:0 6 AM

Yes, it has to be tried experm im entally. I have tried the com position in caps, two this far and they detonated. Blu Tack is
dissolved in gasoline then you separate the filler, filtering works somewhat good but it's slow, you can let it stand for a while
a n d r e m ove the upper layer too, then filter the rem a i n i n g s ( M o n g o B l o n g o came up with the idea). Then you evaporate the
g a s o l i n e a n d you have your blu tack binder. If you wish to m a k e B P H M T D , y o u d i s s o l v e 1 0 - 1 5 % b i n d e r i n e x c e s s g a s o l i n e , a d d
8 5 - 9 0 % H M T D and let the gasoline evaporate, after a while you can start carefully m olding the mixture, at first it's not very
plastic at all but when all gasoline is gone it is.
nbk2000 July 13th, 20 02, 10:3 6 AM

Might want to try adding a little bit of motor oil to the PBX to maintain fle xibility once the gasoline evaporates off. This should
also help it stick. Tho u g h y o u m a y n e e d t o u s e a little more binder too.
mongo blongo July 13th, 20 02, 11:2 6 AM

I was thinking a bit of m otor oil m ight stop it from fluffing up so m uch as well. Maybe som e cooking oil might do the trick as
you won't need as m u c h h e n c e k e e p i n g t h e b i n der % lower.
xoo1246 July 13th, 20 02, 03:2 4 PM

I used gasoline with oil by misstake once when extracting binder. I was very sticky, I'll try that som e t i m e .

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > First explosive?
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View Full Version : First explosive?
Noct December 25th, 2001, 01:32 AM

First of all, I posted a question about making black powder several months (maybe 6 or more) ago, but I never followed up on making it.
Since then I have read several books on weapons, explosives, and related subjects.
I am now itching to start trying to make my own, this time I am going to go through with it. I didn't go through with it last time because I got busy and forgot about the
project, but this time I really want to do it.
I searched for this subject, but I found nothing, and if it has already been covered let me know and I will delete the topic.
Anyway, the question is what would you recommend as your first explosive to make? Or, would you recommend starting out in the world of explosives and weapons
differently, like reading more or learning more about chemistry? I know some about chemistry and explosives, but not nearly as much as most of you.
What was the first explosive you all made? Black powder? Molotov cocktail (I know, not explosive, incendiary, but close enough)? Speaking of molotovs... I was fooling around
a couple nights ago, and my attempt at a molotov failed miserably.
This is what I did...

-Filled bottle with gasoline and styrofoam (about 75/25 in weight in hopes that it would keep its "splatter", whereas I would make it 50/50 if I were making napalm itself)
-Jammed a rag down the neck
-Wiped the bottle clean of gasoline
-Lit the rag
-Threw
-Left the area sad that my stupid ass forgot to dip the rag in gasoline... the fire from the rag blew out in mid-air
Anyway, I am gonna try again (but do a better job) in a few days
Also, I have the ingredients for black powder, and I am considering giving it a go.
Sorry for rambling, here is my post in a nutshell:
Experience- a little chemistry, some explosives literature under my belt, and a half-assed attempt at a molotov cocktail (don't worry, some day you too will be an explosives
expert as I am)
Question- Where do I go now?
mrloud December 25th, 2001, 01:44 AM

Start with *real* small amounts of explosive. Learn how it behaves before making quantaties that will take your hand off.
Try to avoid explosives that require highly toxic chemicals or produce toxic chemicals during manufacture.
AP would be a good start.
Remember to use your safety gear at all times (goggles, gloves, long sleeves etc)
If this thread is really about first explosive experiments it shoud be in Miscellaneous.
[This message has been edited by mrloud (edited December 25, 2001).]
Noct December 25th, 2001, 02:46 AM

I can't move it myself can I?
I figured it would be under low explosives, since that's what I would learn about first. *shrug*
Starting with small amounts is good advice... I will keep that in mind.
AP? I will start researching it.
BrAiNFeVeR December 25th, 2001, 07:02 AM

Yeah, Ap is a good thing to start with (I started with it too) but you must not forget to keep amount small, especially the first times you make anything new to you (maybe
with black powder as an exception).
You'll find the recipe quite easily, there's a thread going on about it right now i think.
Be VERY careful with it, and keep temperatures during the reaction as low as possible, for maximum power and stability.
First do a few small quantity flame tests with diffirent levels of moist in it, to get to know it (use no more then 0.5 gr).
Merry Christmas
------------------

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > max yield for CTAP
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Purple Fire June 26th, 2002, 07:22 AM

I was wondering, what is the maximum yield anyone has ever got for AP? Is keeping it really cold the most important, or is it the concentration of the reagents?
Also, I have just got hold of some 50% H2O2, if I use this with conc. HCl and with 100% acetone, will I end up with a reaction thats going to be INSANELY hard to control?
Would diluting something be the best option? (i was thinking probably the catylist).
The over all goal that I have in mind is producing a 100% yield of 100% CTAP, no dimeric at all. Im thinking that this is probably highly unrealistic, but how close has anyone
ever got? Does everyone here usually settle for a moderately good result as opposed to spending a little extra $$$ and a little extra time etc?
[ June 26, 2002, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Purple Fire ]
andreas June 26th, 2002, 07:34 AM

Whell as the reactants are so cheap I think it isn't worth the effort.
But I have gotten up to 55% molair yeild.
The most important is to keep the temp., both for yeild and the trimer form, down and with such concentrated stuff that's rather difficult to do.
DBSP June 26th, 2002, 07:52 AM

If you dilute the first half of the catalyst it shuld be controllable.
The best yield I have gotten with any conc and ratio is, 200ml of 35% H2O2 300ml of acetone and then 50ml of 30% HCl. This getts me 130g of AP. I know that there isn't as
much acetone as it is supposed to be but it seemes to work the best with these ratios. I haven't done any calculations of the actual yield but I might do that soon, Has anyone
got the TCAP chemicsl formula?

Dilute your H2O2 to 30%. Ive used higher oncentrations and the yeild doesnt seem to improve much. When using 60 ml 30% h202, 48ml acetone, and 5 or 10 ml (I never
measure the catalyst) of 28% HCl I get 20-25g of AP.

DBSP, i think the reason the yields go down when the acetone level is higher is because AP is soluble in acetone. maybe if you used the higher acetone amount but diluted the
solution with ice cold water before filtering any AP in solution would precipitate and the yield increased.

Just made some AP with Alengosvig's ratios. I diluted my 50% H2O2 down to 30% and diluted my conc. HCl down to 30%. Brilliant!!! The whole reaction never got above
about 2 degrees C and within an hour, I have a nice thick layer of precipitate at the bottom of the jar :D Looks like it will be a higher yield than I expected, we will see when I
have washed and weighed it in a few days.
Purple Fire June 27th, 2002, 04:36 PM

WTF??? When I checked it this morning (about 7 hours in the fridge) there was no liquid!!! None, all gone. All the liquid was replaced by a fat layer of wet crystals. The
container had a square of paper over the top, so I'm fairly certain that very little had evaporated. I have never had AP do this before, there should be a layer of liquid shouldn't
there? Or, does this mean that the ratios were perfect and I have one hell of a yield of AP? The whole thing still reeks of Acetone, so there must be some left over...

When i make AP, theres always a big mass of crystals and very little liquid after the reaction.

When i make AP with 30% H2O2 the crystalls rise up, and come out of the beaker!! They are also very very fine, just like powder.

mr.evil - NICE!!! :D what are the concentrations of your other chemicals? My crystals (this time and normally) are big and fat, all stuck together in a block.
Overall I think I'm very happy with the yield for this batch, thanx for the advice people, I think I'll make this my standard "recipe" from now on :) On a similar note, I was
trying to think what I will do with all this AP, I hadn't really planned anything, but a friend just got me a jar of the stuff in shotgun catriges, this is double base smokeless isnt
it? I flicked through the "Makeshift Arsenal",and spotted his method for AP putty, does mixing it with DBSP really provide enough confinement for detonation with no casing at
all? or will the outside burn and the inside detonate?

That has been talked about many times. Search the forum! :mad:
Controlled Chaos November 30th, 2006, 02:34 PM

I used ALENGOSVIG1's recipe letting it sit for 6 hours under 3 degrees Celsius. My yield was under 5 grams. How long do you let it react to obtain the 20-25g yields?
Cobalt.45 November 30th, 2006, 05:52 PM

The reaction progresses very slowly, the closer to 0C you get.
You might need to wait 48 hours or more at those temps.
Controlled Chaos December 1st, 2006, 12:50 AM

Thanks Cobalt, I thought that may be the case.
That is just how cold my ice bath achieved. I guess there is no need to keep it that low. The refrigerator should work and form the trimer at a much faster rate.
Raffikki December 1st, 2006, 12:09 PM

I make AP with HCl and use my own percentages and with in about 5mins the whole mixture turns into hard AP there is about n drop of liquid left in the jar and also rises a bit
like Mr.evil said.When I use HCl the AP is like a fine powder and with Sulfuric Acid it becomes Crystals and takes much longer for it to form.
Controlled Chaos December 1st, 2006, 12:49 PM

Amazing Raffikki. What are the magic numbers?
Also, at those fast rates you may be producing a dimer form. Do you allow your solution to stay cool, or do you keep it warm?
Cindor December 1st, 2006, 06:22 PM

0162017402290215 you are right, Raffikki is getting the dimer form of AP.
Raffikki, you are probalby using to much acid, what is the temp. that reach you synthesis ?
Raffikki December 2nd, 2006, 05:26 PM

Cindor you are right I use more acid.I still keep it cool.I made a large batch once and couldnt keep the temp low and there was about 1/4 left that wasnt AP.
The AP sounds, looks and feels the same as the original AP method from the Forum.Actually when I started using stronger Hydrogen Peroxide the more AP I got.Ill chek my
numbers and put on.O and just so btw 500grams of AP costs me about 1.65$
Why is the reaction so much faster when I use HCl instead of Sulfuric Acid??
Flamethrowa December 10th, 2006, 12:22 AM

Just drew it out so I could picture it. The chemical formula of the trimer will be C9H18O6.
I've found (as might be expected) that using more acid than might be necessary gives smaller crystals as they form faster. My latest batch seemed less sensitive, perhaps
because of this. The temperature was kept around 5 C (my fridge).
In the past, I have achieved a yield of about 20g with 25mL 30% HOOH, 20ml Acetone, and about 7mL 30% HCl. This was left for about 36hrs at 5 C.
Rbick April 15th, 2007, 01:33 AM

I just made a batch of AP, except a little differently than usual. The yield was pretty amazing, and it only reacted for 10 hours. For the method I used 106ml of 50% H2O2,
200ml acetone and 30ml of 30% HCL. I mixed these using the usual method, except I just quadrupled the H2O2 and the acetone. Only about 20ml of liquid remained after the
reaction.
I think the reason as to the speed could be that I used a large amound of catalyst, causing the reaction to happened in half the time. Normally I have to wait about 24-30
hours to get a full yield. The 50% H2O2 can be found at the Hach chemical supplier site for 25 USD. If you only have 35%, just use 120ml instead of 106. The only difficulty I
had with using 50% was controlling the reaction and keeping the temp. low.
AP Pics
#1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/PA010005.jpg)
nbk2000 April 15th, 2007, 03:14 AM

We used to have a member named Phone, and he liked making large amounts of AP.
He's no longer alive, having exploded himself with a kilo of AP while showing off to his friends.
No doubt his last words were 'Hey guys, check this shit out!'.
DONMAN April 15th, 2007, 03:40 AM

THAT IS ALOT OF AP!!! I would never attempt that much. I never make more than what can react in a film capsule. If what you said was true I doubt your getting the dimer
form. Especially if you didn't keep it really cold. What you have is like 300g of really sensitive ap!
Rbick April 15th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Yeah you guys are right. I wasn't expecting such a large yield, and I definatley don't plan on making this much ever again. Considering I only use AP in my caps (having just
recieved some NM), this is way too much. I'm gonna get rid of it today, maybe make a few 500g charges of APAN :eek: I'll post the videos of that later.
Shalashaska April 15th, 2007, 01:04 PM

Didn't phone die when he went to check it after it went out?
That would make his last words, and I quote;
"FUCK! Hang on a sec, guys." =D

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > "Power" of flashpowders
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the freshmaker December 26th, 2001, 08:46 AM

I know this sounds extremely K3VVLiSh but try to understand me. If you compare different types og flashpowders which of
them would be the "most powerfull" I know you can't just say its "powerfull" since there is alot of differences fx. burnrate, gas
vol, heat etc. But if you took 10g very well mixed flash with the exact same particel sice, same confinement (paper tube) etc.
wich type of flashpowder would then create the biggest dent in a thin metalplate?
Are there better ways to compare how "powerfull" flashpowders are?
The types of flash I would like to know about is KCl04/Al - KClO3/Al - KNO3/Al - KMnO4/Al - KMnO4/Al/S......
Please help if you can..! -thanks Cya
------------------
BrAiNFeVeR December 26th, 2001, 10:10 AM

Well, I can't say much about The KClO4 or KClO3 fash (because I don't have those materials) But the KMnO4 is a lot faster
then the KNO3 flash.
The S is just for easier igniting i guess ..
PS: did you fall from heaven or did they kicked you out ?
------------------
Madog555 December 26th, 2001, 10:18 AM

KNO3 flash sucks (for me), i have herd that KClO4 Flash (3 KClO4/2 Al/1 S) is the most powerful. i have also herd of a KClO3
flash that burns so fast that it goes off with a pop unconfined! search for the thread "Favorite Flash"
there is a pretty recent thread with a pic of some KNO3 flash compared to some KMnO4 flash. Big diference!
------------------
"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX
CodeMason December 26th, 2001, 10:22 AM

Brainfever: Nah, I hear they finally got around to installing internet access in heaven now. But what with all those sissy
Christians up there, half the sites are blocked out.
------------------

KNO3/Al isn't really a flash mix - it's used in white flares. Maybe it would work in flash with extremely good Al and a few other
additives.
I think the most powerful flash might be KMnO4/Al/S - the KMnO4 releases its oxygen at a comparatively low temperaure and
without melting, so it uses up less energy than, for example, KClO4 which needs a lot of energy to decompose, and it needs
energy to melt it first. So with KMnO4 you get more energy given out in heat and light, and less used up in the reaction. The
sulphur will provide a greater gas volume than KMnO4/Al alone.
Maybe.
------------------

Chromates/dichromates are better oxidizers than permanganates.
------------------
the freshmaker December 26th, 2001, 12:25 PM

Are dichromates better oxidisers than permanganates? Then comp's with those be very unstable- and have a big risk of
spontanously ignition!! Can Ammonium Dichromate be used with Al to form a good low explosive? Also, Ammonium
Dichromate should be explosive in dry form! (?)
Yesterday, I "dreamt" I was launching small rockets with a 10g Permanganate flash charge on top! Some awesome reports
they gave!
------------------

Yes, ammonium dichromate will detonate when pure and dry.
I have some potassium dichromate, and it doesn't seem quite as good as potassium permanganate in things such as flash,
although mine is *slightly* brown and not bright orange, so perhaps it's impure?
------------------
a_bab December 26th, 2001, 07:14 PM

It definitely is. Mine is bright orange (a very nice aspect).
I heard that K2Cr2O7 is very toxic. 1 gram can kill a man. (duh, chromate ion
toxicity)
------------------

aren't dichromates carcinogenic? surely that alone would make KMnO4 a better option...

The fastest burning composition should give the most violent case rupture and cause the biggest shock to the target metal
sheet.
For that reason I'd say KMnO4 with german dark Al, or maybe some of that minute Al Philou had that could be ignited with a
naked flame.
Jumala December 26th, 2001, 11:28 PM

Approximate 10 years ago I saw a sciense show about fireworks.
The moderator showed different kinds of powder and made a little burning experiment with each kind. To get an idea whats
the difference is between BP and fast burning stuff he shows a mix off perchlorate and aluminium powder.
He poored a amount like a pea on a fire-resistant plate and lit it with a long stick.
It sounded like a pistol shot.

The moderator said it was a burnrate higher than 1000m/s.
I have tryed to make the same experiment but I haven`t the nessesary stuff (Al powder without wax)so it fails.
CyclonitePyro December 26th, 2001, 11:29 PM

I think KCLO4 flash is the best, it burns incredibly fast and it is much safer than KMnO4 flash. But we're not talking about the
best flash, just the most powerful.
Isn't there some way to find out how much energy is released from each comp. using some calculations.
------------------
Nitrogen Triiodide"
EventHorizon December 27th, 2001, 11:21 AM

I've tried a few different comps for flash, KNO3/Al, KClO4/Al, KClO3/AL/S, KMnO4/Mg, KClO4/Al/Sb/S, etc.
The best I've found so far was the last one listed but required a LOT of confinement. The second best is just plain old 70/30
KClO4/German blackhead, but its hard to lite for me, I have to make a paste of pyrodex and put a bulb on each fuse for
reliable ignition.
On a side note...don't go hog wild on ordering shit...I have no fucking clue what I'm going to do with 5# of 4M Al, 3# of
400mesh Al, 3# of 325 mesh Mg, and a pound of German blackhead (and yes, enough KClO3/KClO4 to accompany all of it).
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited December 27, 2001).]

You could, if you really wanted to, work out the energy released in J per gram of flash if you knew the general equation for its
combustion and the bond energies of the bonds broken and formed per mole, and if you knew the burn rate you could work
out the power of a gram of flash in W.
But it'd be a lot more fun to decide which is best with practical experimentation...
K2Cr2O7 is very carcinogenic and toxic, due to the chromium in the +6 oxidation state.
As an experiment, I put some spherical Al powder in my ball mill for 24 hours, and the burn rate of some KMnO4 flash did
seem to improve slightly, due to the grains being slightly flattened. SO if you're not in a rush to make your flash I'd
recommend doing this.
If you ordered too much stuff I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem selling it to others...
------------------
EventHorizon December 27th, 2001, 11:37 PM

I've got "The Complete Book of Flash Powder". I'll scan it and try out the OCR software I'm "acquiring". http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif
------------------
PGP ID 0x147CEF54

Sounds good EventHorizon, looking forward to it. :)
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RTC December 28th, 2001, 02:28 PM

I plan on making some zn/s mixes.
I'll be making the sulphur as at the moment the chem's to make it are cheap and on hand. (sodium thiosulphate and a
sodium hydrogen sulphate solution)
I will try to capture these testings, but does anyone know how to record film from a digital camera, as mine is a web cam/digi
cam/mp3 player, and it says that it can record video if plugged into vcr/tv capture card, I've plugged it into my capture card
and did a scan of channels to see if I could pick up the digi cam station, to no avial. Anyone have any idea's what im doing
wrong? I've read the manual but that didn't help either.
------------------
We have assembled here today to teach you all a little lesson. One cannot remain on top for years while closing one's mind to
the influence of others. I will demonstrate the true meaning of inovation for all you to see.
[This message has been edited by RTC (edited December 28, 2001).]
Donutty December 28th, 2001, 04:35 PM

Probably the fastest burning ('powerful') flash powder that I use is made with German black aluminium and perchlorate with
fine particle sizes and passed through a screen several times. Supposedly the fastest and most potent flash is made of 29%
KCLO4, 27% KCLO3, 22% German black alu, 15% Sb2S3 (Antimony sulphide) and 7% sulphur.
This mix is also very dangerous as it is the most sensitive. A variation on this without the sulphur and chlorate could be the
most powerful and reasonably safe mixes: 64% KCLO4, 27% German black and 9% Sb2S3
On the subject of flash burning unconfined - I've found that after a 1/2 - 1 second most flash mixes the size of a few grains of
salt go with a 'zish' sound
------------------
CyclonitePyro December 28th, 2001, 06:16 PM

I bought that movie from pyrotek awhile ago called: Blast Waves & Flash Powders video
Our hottest selling video. Pyrolabs and Ken Kosanke dispel many of the myths surrounding flash composition. What's better,
depth of sound or loudness? Are simple formulations better? 55 minutes that will change the way you think about flash. (That
is taken from the pyrotek website)
They said that sulfer or antimony sulphide has no effect on power or sound.
------------------
Nitrogen Triiodide"

I think the ones reported to be the most powerful may only be the most powerful that are used; some less stable mixtures,
that cannot safely be used, may be more powerful.
Although that one Donutty posted looks like it should make quite a bang!!
To the person making his own sulphur - that makes colloidial sulphur, doesn't it? If so, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun
getting it out of the solution and washing it, since it will pass through filter papers...
Edit: Just thought (maybe you have too), if you can't filter out the sulphur, evapourate off all the water so you have the
crystals of left over reactants and products, and the sulphur particles. Then heat this up and the sulphur will melt into one solid
mass, which can then be easily removed from the other stuff, purified if needed, crushed and used.
Another edit: http://come.to/pfp has lots of good compositions, including flashes. Check it out if you haven't already.
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[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited December 29, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mr Cool (edited December 29, 2001).]
MacCleod January 1st, 2002, 03:46 AM

I've experimented quite a bit with KCl03 flash mixes,and found that the mesh size of the aluminum used makes a major
difference where burn rate/power is concerned.With 1000 mesh black (14/5),even the slightest confinement (single fold of
masking tape) will give a nice bang,whereas,with 425 mesh,it needs fairly strong confinement to work.With 1000 mesh Mg. it's
even faster.But for the most powerful,i'd have to go with the KMn04 flash mixes.I tried a mix of 3 parts KMn04 to 2 parts 190
mesh flake alum.(by vol.) and got the same results as the KCl03/alum. mix-a nice crack when folded in a single strip of 2 in.
masking tape.I've been afraid to use it for salutes,though,due to it's extreme sensitivity.
BrAiNFeVeR January 4th, 2002, 05:04 AM

If you don't add S, I think it is quite stable ...
I made lots of flash salutes with the hollidays, and it all went fine ...

It will still be quite unstable without S, but I don't think KMnO4/Al will be very sensitive if kept pure and dry. It'd be fine to
make bangers out of it, unless you're planning ahead and making them for your 65th birthday celebration.

I burned ca 2g of KMnO4/Al/S flash today, i never expected it to be so powerful!
It created a huge burst of flame (ca. 50cm)
It was made by simply mixing the ingredients together with a spoon, no ballmilling or whatsoever.
Be very careful with this cause it's highly unpredictable.
the freshmaker January 6th, 2002, 06:10 AM

Can anyone really proof that Permanganate flash (with Sulfur) is so damn unstable as many of you folks says?
I know I burns/explodes very violently but that haven't anything to do with its stability!
(I'm not say'n that Permanganate flash isn't, but I would like some proofs...!!! thanx
nbk2000 January 6th, 2002, 09:07 AM

Add a drop of water to permanganate flash with sulfur. See what happens if you let it sit. I'm interested in the answer.

It's stable but unpredictable. What i'm trying to say is that it won't explode without any reason, but it's hard to tell when it will
go off.
With blackpowder fuse and booster i have been able to set it off immediatly, but you have to hold it in a flame for ca. 2-5s
before it will burn, that's the dangerous thing cause that way some flash almost exploded right into my face.
I don't know what it does when struck, i'm a little scared to do that after i saw what a small amount of flash does...

nbk2000 yes I know that it'll maybe ignite in presence of water, and so will allmost all flashpowders, and btw who would go drip
water in a batch of flash or go setting crackers of when it rains??
Besides of the "water risk" what else proofs that its so damn senistive and unstable??
-and yes I know about the glyserine risk also!

But that have nothing to do about this flash-mix!!

You're getting ahead of yourself with the gylcerine there mister....
Water doesn't come in just big drops of water falling into your powder. It also comes as moisture pulled out from the air by
hydroscopic salts. This isn't a problem during short term storage, but if you get a few rainy days...poorly sealed
containers....boom!
Just a possibility.
I don't think too many people here are making things for months in advance, so it's almost a moot point.

I've made KMn04 salutes for immediate use with tissue paper end plugs that worked great,but I usually use hot glue to plug
the ends,and I make a few gross at a time,then save them until summer.That's why i'd be worried about using it.

nbk2000, is KMnO4 hydroscopic?? I don't think so, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
[ January 07, 2002: Message edited by: the freshmaker ]

I haven't touched the stuff in more than 10 years so I can't be sure. But it's best to assume that any chemical IS and take
appropriate precautions. After all, better safe than sorry, right?
FadeToBlackened January 8th, 2002, 08:19 PM

What about different fuels? Anyone know how ones like:
Aluminum
Magnesium
K2S (fulminating powder, minus the nitrate)
,etc.. compare to each other?

The magnesium version should be much more powerful, cause this burns with bright light already and the oxidation reaction is
faster because only one oxygen atom binds with it.
With magnesium you don't need so much oxidizer also.
I have been wanting to try this, but Mg powder costs way to much were i live.
How about Zn powder as a fuel?

I mixed up some KMn04 flash today with 1000 mesh magnesium (from Firefox),which I tinkered with on my lunch break.I
dripped some glycerine on a pea-sized pile of it and got about a 4 second delay before a nice 'pop'.So I doubled the pile,and
got a 'BANG'.It needs no external confinement whatsoever.If anyone else here on the Forum has got the magnesium please
give this a try,if for no other reason than to prove i'm not bullshitting!.
Oh,it's 3 to 2 oxidizer to metal,by vol..
mr.evil December 22nd, 2002, 02:58 PM

i've tested some magnesium flashpowders:
KMnO4/Mg,
this stuff is so awesome, it burns with a WHOMP! sound, like AP and when you lit 2 grams or some you can feel some kind of
wind( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> )
also, the flash is very blindening.
KNO3/Mg,
This stuff is quiet cool, i thought it would burn slowly...BUT! it burns hell fast, like bad flash, producing a hard SCHHHH sound
and very bright light(i saw spots for 10 minutes or so)
i'm very happy with the results of the KNO3/Mg flash as it's quiet stable, and cand be used with sulfer! :)
Rat Bastard December 22nd, 2002, 03:22 PM

Mr. Evil, are you using the standard 70/30 for those two flash compositions?
mr.evil December 22nd, 2002, 04:29 PM

i don't know exactly, i've tried some different mixes..
i've tried 50:50, 40:60 and 70:30
But i'm not finished yet with testing...
btw, add boric acid to the mixtures, that will provide the mixture will self ignite. (though only if it gets wet however..)
EP December 22nd, 2002, 10:26 PM

That last couple days I've been experiemtning with 8 different burst/flash comps...
greenmix
H3
whistle
kno3/al
kno3/al/s
kmno4/al/s
kclo4/al/s
kclo4/al
Full results will be on my site eventually, but I'm not done yet (for example, havent done confined tests)
I did some caveman-style friction and impact tests on very small ammounts (.05g maybe? my scale isnt that accurate...) I
then ground the powder on a concrete block using another chunk of concrete. For impact I put antoher litttle pile on the block,
put a piece of paper on top, and hit it several times with a hammer. Not a single one went off with either test. :) Doesn't mean
I'll go boxing with a flash salute in my pocket, but it's nice to know I don't have to hold in my farts when mixing it. :p
Somebody up there said they had a hard time igniting kmno4/al/s, but I tested every mix for spark sensitivity by scraping a
flint onto it, and the kmno4/al/s lit very easily! The whistle mix (70 kclo4/30 sodium benzoate) would hardly light, I had to
add some greenmix and light that for it to go! Any ideas why? Perhaps my benzoate wasn't fine enough... :confused:
kmno4/al/s and kclo4/al both seemed to burn at about the same speed (about .5g of each mix was burned in open air) with
kclo4/al/s a little slower.
On new years (so nobody complains about noise) I'll test 2g of each in pulumnas. Tonight I'm going to try and ignite a chuck
of Mg with some thermite, I hope it works!
[ December 23, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: EP ]
static_firefly December 23rd, 2002, 12:55 AM

I made some kmno4 an al with pleaseing results but by far the most reactive and powerful i have used is kmno4 and
phosphrous. In contact with flame it makes a bright flash a phut sound. Id try larger amounts bigger then pea sized piles but
as i think you could already tell its shock sensitive.
I will try making a pile of kmno4/S spray a mist of water onto and let it sit. see what it does.
Nika452 December 23rd, 2002, 04:13 AM

EP, on the topic of your whistle mix, did you make the sodium benzoate or buy it? If you bought it, should I assume its from
United Nuclear?
My whistle mix, made with bought sodium benzoate, seems to ignite fairly easily. It is certainly more spark sensitive than my
green mix. Perhaps yours is not mixed well? If you add a small amount of charcoal or other coloured fuel to the mix when you
mix it, you can tell how close to homogenous it is.
If you made the sodium benzoate, it would need to be ground down a bit, but I doubt that fineness (is this a word?--
magnitude of pulverosity?) would be your problem.
--Looking forward to seeing the updates on your site.
Mr Cool December 23rd, 2002, 07:36 AM

Static, you be careful with that phosphorous mixture, OK? It's nasty nasty stuff. That's what I ended up doing with most of the
phosphorous I had a few years ago, and although I never had it go off for no reason, it did go off at even the slightest
provocation on some occaisions. Also red P is hygroscopic as you'll probably know from using it.
I don't think it's as bad as chlorate/phosphorous mixtures though. If you paint a solution of potassium chlorate onto the
phosphorous on a box of matches and let it dry then the result is a strip of paper that deflagrates with a bright flash when you
drop small objects onto it. They're quite fun, as long as you treat them carefully. The trouble is they can go off when you try to
pick them up, or when you touch them!
EP December 23rd, 2002, 01:59 PM

The benzoate (from United Nuclear) definetly didn't look as fine as the perchlorate, so next time I'll try grinding it up a bit to
increase its magnitude of pulverosity. :p Also, because both are white, it's impossible to tell how well mixed they are. I'll try
the charcoal idea and see how it goes...
NickSG January 16th, 2003, 01:32 PM

I usually stay away from KMno4 flash powders, since i do not have a reliable, cheap source(though i have heard it can be
bought a sears, but i forgot the use). On Monday, i made a 150 gram batch of flash powder(i know you arent supposed to mix
over 100 grams of flash, but i mixed it with a 3 foot long wooden dowel in a plastic container). I used the 2/1 ratio of
potassium perchlorate and german dark aluminum(600 mesh), mainly becuase i was bored with the 7/3, and i never tried the
2/1 with this kind of flash. 1/4 teaspoon, gave me very suprising results. Instead of the WHOOSH sound that i was expecting,
i got a loud thud. I made a salute with the flash powder using 1/8 inch hot glue plugs in a "M-80" tube that i also bought from
UN, and my friend, who was close to 200 feet away, told me that when it went off, the windows in his house very shaking very
gentle, but enough to notice. I could clearly heard the widnows by the house we set it off by shaking. Anyways, if you are tired
to the 7/3, try 2/1 becuase it definatly has beter results. I tried the magnesium/kno3 or kclo4 before with very nice results. I
ball milled a cut up magnesium bar for about two weeks, and mixed it with kno3 in a 6/4 ratio. This flash powder burned very
fast, and very bright, like posted before, and made a nice thud sound, similar to my 2/1. The perchlorate/ magnesium in the
7/3 ratio made a dent in my pop can, becuase i flip a pop can over, and light the powder in the bottom. It is my fasted flash
powder i have made ever, and 1 teaspoon made a pretty loud THUD, and my hair seemed to flip back when it set off. If you
want the best flash powder with the cheapest and most accessable materials, i would go with the kno3/magnesium.
Eliteforum January 16th, 2003, 02:31 PM

I wouldn't say that magnesium would be cheaper, or easier to come by. Although it may give better results.
Sparky January 16th, 2003, 05:48 PM

I'd just like to mention one of my (imaginary) friends experiences with magnesium flash powders (or so he tells me :) ). His
first flash powder was magnesium/KNO3 50/50. He would deffinetly recomend this powder. BUT he has found the shape of the
magnesium may be very important. Filings from a single cut mill bastard work well, and filings from a hacksaw (32 points per
inch I think) are usable. The potassium nitrate must be ground as fine as practical.
The same friend bought some 325 mesh magnesium powder from Skylighter and tried it 50/50 with potassium nitrate as
flash. It was totally unusable as a report composition, burning slower than regular FF grade black powder. 70/30 potassium
perchlorate/magnesium was similar. It is possible there may be a large amount of magnesium oxide or other contaminants in
the magnesium when he bought it( :mad: ).
He tried ball milling the magnesium for about 10 hours using glass media (opening the mill every hour) and it reduced the
magnesium quite a lot. It is now usable in KNO3 flash as long as the potassium nitrate is finely ground. It is still not as good
as the flash made from magnesium filed from a firestarter. This milled magnesium is not as good with potassium perchlorate
(7/3) as indian dark aluminum is.
Another experiment he did with magnesium flash powder is taking the same filed magnesium that works with KNO3 and using
it 7/3 with potassum perchlorate. It was unimpressive, certainly not as good as 'normal' aluminum based flash. He has come
to the conclusion that magnesium flash can be confusing in that it performs very contrary to how he has heard it should
:confused: .
Yet another related experiment my friend did was mix up some indian dark aluminum and fine potassium nitrate. He tried it
in various ratios, and it would not sustain combustion without sulfur!
Just for interest's sake: On the subject of the most 'powerful' flash, search for hyperflash and "Z11" in the rec.pyrotechnics
archive and you will find some references to amazing (so fast burning and sensitive as to be impractical) flash powders.

IIRC the KMnO4 sold at Sears is as refills for water purifiers.
Wcc445 January 18th, 2003, 02:29 AM

Anyone experemented with KClO4/Mg? I saw something above about KNO3/Mg, but nothing about KClO4.
NickSG January 23rd, 2003, 07:47 PM

yeah, i have made some very successful flash powders using magnesium and KClO4, and it burns faster and hotter with
magnesium than with aluminum. My previous post has a little information on my experiments. Potassium perchlorate is not a
neccesity if someone is wanting to make a good flash powder. If sources are low(you are underage, so cannot order from
Skylighter, firefox, pyrotek, or anyother good suppliers, and do not want to pay a lot of money with United Nuclear), you can
use KNO3. Potassium nitrate can be bought at wal mart as stump remover(and can be purified for better results) and so can
the magnesium, as a firestarter, which must be powdered, either by scraping it with a knife, or runing it in a ball mill for
several days, up to 2 weeks. Magnesium is considerable more expensive than aluminum, but the low cost of potassium nitrate
can make up for it. Unless you can make the magnesium very fine(400 to 600 mesh), the 2/1 or 7/3 flash powder (KClO4/
german aluminum) is better, but only if you have access to a reliable supplier.
knowledgehungry January 23rd, 2003, 08:15 PM

Anthony you do recall correctly. It is sold as KMNO4 in the water treatment area. 5 lbs for 17$ thats a whole shitload better
than pyroteks 5lbs for 48$+ S&H.
Nihilist February 19th, 2003, 11:26 PM

I'm not sure which is the most powerful but from my experience KMnO4/Al/S is the brightest and fastest burning by far, I lit a
pile of this at night and was blind for about 10 seconds afterward.
HMnO4 March 6th, 2003, 10:57 PM

After testing just about ALL the flash powders listed, I found that the KMnO4 + Al + Mg (tested as 50:25:25) is the most
reliable, inexpensive, and easiest to come by.
Potassium Permanganate can be found at just about any Home Depot store around. It is sold in either the well-treatment
section, or water purification.
I have never found a local hardware/chem. store that sells gran./powdered Al or Mg. Both can be purchased from the majority
of pyrotechnic commerce sites on the net.
Also - I have purchased 90% H2SO4 from Home Depot, and I'm trying to create an impact-sensitive casing that will break
open a small ampule of Sulfuric Acid. Upon impact, the ampule will break and react with the KMnO4 to create HMnO4, which
instantly ignites the KMnO4/Al/Mg powder.
<img src="http://radi0activ.com/hm.gif" alt=" - " />
NickSG March 7th, 2003, 11:26 PM

The 50/25/25 might be one of the best working, but i can tell you it is not one of the most inexpensive. Metals, especially
powdered, are expensive, especially magnesium. Aluminum is still expensive, but not insanely expensive. The cheapest, and
fastest burning flash powders tend to be the ones with more than 60 percent oxidizer, since it is almost always cheaper than
metal powders. The most powerful flash powders are the ones with more metals (but you want to make sure to have enough
oxygen to completely burn), becuase more gases are produced, makeing a louder and more powerful explosion. Overall, you
were right about it being reliable and very powerful, but it is not the cheapest.

It also depends on the region of the world you're from. Prices vary greatly.
I do not have KClO4, only KClO3. I made a 7:3 composition of KClO3 + Al (Both are powdered and reagent grade) and the
mixture burned surprisingly slow, and took a great deal of heat to ignite. Does the KClO4 version burn faster/require less
heat?
One thing that I don't like about the KMnO4 flash powder is the high temperature it requires to ignite. The only way I can get
a salute to ignite completely is to coat the end of the fuse with powdered Mg.
Also - KMnO4 makes a mess when it contacts water. A dime-size pile of KMnO4 will turn whatever it contacts to a flaming
purple, and then dark-brown.
[ March 07, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: HMnO4 ]
mr.evil March 8th, 2003, 12:37 PM
maybe fun to know, but i've made an exotic flashpowder:
Sb203 --> 5
Cu(II)O -> 1
Mg ------> 2,5
S -------> 0,5
actually i was trying to make crackling stars without Pb304(wich i have now). But this mix turns out to be a very powerfull flash
mixture. It flashed with an extremely bright white flame(duh, Mg)
there are only a few points why i don't use this mix:
1. It's an toxic mix (okay, mixes containing Pb304 are far more toxic but you don't use it on the ground)
2. It only works if you use an *booster* like BP/Mg or some other metal containing pyrotechnic mixture.
anyway, i find that KMnO4:Mg is the most powerfull and fastest flash mixture i've ever seen.
(SORRY! for the spelling mistakes :rolleyes: )
by the way,
ever tried whistle mix + 1% Fe203? this stuff is really powerfull!
[ March 08, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]

I can't help noticing some odd things in this thread.
Firstly, most of you just determine the amounts by trial and error instead of writing the equation and calculating the amount
needed. That's also the reason (atleast I think it is) why most formulas I see here are heavily underoxidized.
If you need help writing the equation I am willing to help you.
Secondly, most of you seem to assume that Mg

flashpowder burns faster and hotter.
My question: How do you know this? It's not because it is more blinding that it burns hotter or faster, this can be caused by
more visible radiation instead of IR or UV. The military seems to prefer Al powder above anything else too.

Helvetica">Also - KMnO4 makes a mess when it contacts water. A dime-size pile of KMnO4 will turn whatever it contacts to a
flaming purple, and then dark-brown. <hr /></blockquote>The purple
is merely dissolved KMnO4 while the dark brown is the reduction to MnO2 by dust, etc....
You should know that with such a nickname... :p

Helvetica">I do not have KClO4, only KClO3. I made a 7:3 composition of KClO3 + Al (Both are powdered and reagent grade)
and the mixture burned surprisingly slow, and took a great deal of heat to ignite. Does the KClO4 version burn faster/require
less heat?
<hr /></blockquote>KClO3 requires less energy to split
it's oxygen than KClO4 and thus it is more sensitive. Do not make the false assumption that KClO4 flash would be more powerful because it has one more oxygen atom. Performance is only determined by enthalpy and
kinetic barriers.
Oh, I might be picky, but this forum has a very nice feature called subscript...
I'm sorry if this seems a bit arrogant, but if we really want to discuss this in a sophisticated manner we should start with atleast
getting the basic formulas right.
Only after that we can start discussing thermodynamics etc...

Sorry that I didn't go into technical details on WHY the colors are the way they are.. Is it really necessary...Oh yes...
here's some subscript.. Just for you :-)

If you can't be bothered with chemistry, then you shouldn't bother making pyrotechnics or explosives. :mad:
If you have the time to put some silly text into subscript it should be no effort for you to do it with a few numbers, no?
:rolleyes:
Besides, flaming (especially by noobies) isn't really accepted over here....

ENOUGH :mad:
bickering ends or banning commences :D
photonic March 12th, 2003, 07:55 PM

I would like to make some flash but I can't find the chemicals locally. I went to 5 hardware stores(3 of which were different)
and one of the largest outdoor supply stores in the U.S., actually it's probably the largest. I couldn't find KMnO4 anywhere. Nor
could I find magnesium firestarter. Do any of you have pictures of the packaging? On a better note, I got 2L of H2SO4 for 15
dollars and a liter of toluene. I once heard that the "Stop-Leak" stuff for radiators is flaked aluminum, but I haven't seen any
lately to check. Is this true?
MacCleod March 13th, 2003, 12:27 AM

You can find KMn04 at Sears,in the water softener aisle.I'm guessing you may have just missed the firestarters.Go to-http://
www.baproducts.com/cl7870.htm to see what to look for.
NickSG March 13th, 2003, 11:21 PM

I usually find my magnesium firestarters at wal mart. Sometimes the may not have it, but they do most of the time. Sporting
goods stores supposedly have them, but i havent checked.
KMnO4 isnt necessary in magnesium based flash powders. KNO3 performs very good, often faster burn rate than black
powder. The burn rate depends on mesh of the powder, so leave it in the ball mill for several days.
Theoretically, aluminum and magnesium have the same energy output, even though magnesium is far more reactive (not
necessarily brighter or more powerful) than aluminum.
The Crazed April 4th, 2003, 07:51 PM

Personaly I prefer KClO4 the best. Once when my friend and I were mixing some, the bag leaked like 25g on the lawn when
we were mixing it. He got the bright idea of throwing a match on it from like 5 ft away. He ended up getting a black residew all
over his face and neither of us could hear for hours. aslo I think the KClO4 and Al (about 500 mesh) is one of the safest
mixtures out there. It doesnt react to friction and heat.
"Yeah, I think we're far back enough..."-famous last words

If it does not react to heat, how does it get ignited by a fuse?
Also, every LE and LE is "reactive" to friction and impact (amongst other things) to some degree.
Just a note about over-exageration, try to keep it accurate :)
kababz August 27th, 2006, 05:01 PM

KMnO4/Mg flash is the most frighting thing I've ever seen. 30 gram minimun detonation mass.
c.Tech August 28th, 2006, 08:02 AM

I made 2 grams of KMnO4/Mg/S flash.
The magnesium was grinded off using sandpaper, the sulfur in a mortar in pestle and the KMnO4 with another mortar and
pestle.
When the newspaper was lit it was sitting on I herd a loud Wompfh!
This gave me a scare because I didn t kno w such a small amount of flash co uld de frag whe n sitting out in th e open,
especially mine becau se the chem s weren t ground in a ball mill.
m-80 August 28th, 2006, 02:51 PM

Half a gram (pea sized amount) of KMNO4/2 micron Atomized Al will explode like a gun shot. This is the flash many people
have only heard of and never been able to produce. It is very violent and nasty flash. It is made with HIGH GRADE KMNO4 and
ATOMIZED 2 MICRON Al. It is important that the KMNO4 is a very fine powder and also 99%-100% pure other wise it will not
work. The chemicals need to be mixed very well (but be careful as its very sensitive), i use the corner of a plastic bag (bag
MUST be sprayed with anti-static guard to stop static electricity setting the explosive off while you mix it) and mix no more
than half a gram. The ratio is 1.5 Al : 7 KMNO4.
If you try this and it doesn't work, you have not followed the above instructions precisely.
Lewis August 28th, 2006, 06:19 PM

I stumbled across an odd flash composition the other day...
After I learned that Teflon (polytetraflouroethylene, I believe) was an oxidizer, I decided to test it out in combination with
loosley ground Mg.
I threw together a tiny amount of soapy teflon shavings, and Mg slivers from a coarse grinding wheel, in a roughly 50-50 mix
by volume.
Idiotically, I decided to light a tiny amount with a cigarrete lighter on a brick. After exposing it to direct flame for over 20
seconds there was an extremley BRIGHT flash, a quick woosh, and the air became filled with near wieghtless black feather-y
things that I assume was unburned Teflon residue.
Seeing as the "experiment" was performed in a completley unscientific manner, I probably haven't learned much. (besides the
fact that several thousand degree burns don't feel too good on the fingers)
I'd like to see more research done on this, but I can't be the one to do it.
Bert August 29th, 2006, 11:12 AM

There are photo flash mixes of military origin that are made with these chemicals. A search is in order. Finer particle sizes will
greatly increase sensitivity, be careful if you do experiment with this.
Lewis August 29th, 2006, 08:40 PM

Yes, I realize my mistake now. I hadn't looked up the chemical name for Teflon in a while so my searches didn't get any
results (switched uo for ou).
I read in an older thread that people had trouble reducing Teflon's particle size, and I can relate.
My method, to create a small amount of tiny chips quickly was to use an exact-o knife to slash many "channels" intersecting
the edge of a piece of teflon. Then, I raked the blade over these ridges, which came off in pieces about 1mm long.
This wouldn't work for making a lot of teflon chips, nor does it make them fine, but for anyone who wants to give it a shot for
fun, that's how I did it.
Bert August 30th, 2006, 12:35 AM

PTFE is available from the plastic manufacturers as a very fine powder. It is consolidated into the solid shapes seen in
commerce by high pressures and sintering, often with various fillers added to improve the finished materials mechanical
qualities. I have obtained this "air float" powder in the past- Combined with 2 micron Magnesium it was quite dangerous. The
coarse particle size you used likely saved your fingers, hope the burns are healing OK...
nbk2000 August 30th, 2006, 08:54 AM

What about laying a strip of aluminum foil on top of a similar sized length of Teflon tape, and then rolling it up into a tight
rod?
Placed in the center of a charge, implosive compression should heat it up to ignition temps, right?

I have just made a very powerful but rather stable flash using KMnO4 and Mg powder.I did not have much time on my hands
when i made this so never turned the KMnO4 into powder but left it in its original stateof small crystals(OK there was some
powder in the tub) and mixed it with some magnesium that I had filed down(around 100 to 150 mesh).Mixed them,put them
in a film canister,put a drop of glycerin in the canister and stood back.Purple sparks shot about 7 ft in the air from 2 grams of
the stuff i was quite impressed.I then tested its sensitivity by scraping a very very small amont on a slab.It took quite a bit of
grinding before it made a small bang.
wymanthescienceman November 4th, 2006, 11:17 PM

The best flash that I have ever used so far is made from KClO4/Magnalium - approximately 60/40. KClO4 is "Chinese
Gourmet" and the Magnalium is an alloy of 50/50 Al/Mg at 600 mesh. The metal is sold on eBay, just do a search for it, it
runs about $35/lb incl. shipping. It is super reactive, and blindingly bright. I have a video of a 25mg sample in the hollow
point of a .177cal pellet on Google Video, just search "Magnalium" on GV and you should find it. I have dared make more
than a few grams at a time as it explodes loudly in amounts over 250mg, and I haven't used KClO3 yet because I'm satisfied
with what I have now and frankly I think it'd be too sensitive with it anyway. This flash doesn't even compare to any Al flash,
I've compared it to 2 micron dark Al and it doesn't even come close.
Trinit November 7th, 2006, 01:37 PM

I have never made any flash powders with KMnO4. So I don't know if it is stronger than any KClO4 or KClO3 flash mixes.
A year or two ago though I made a flash using KClO4 and the 2 micron size dark Al. I experimented some with a couple of
different substances to see if there was anything that I could add to the flash to increase it's strength.
I found that Fe3O4 helped increase the strength of the flash the most. I had never really heard of Fe3O4 being used in flash
powders before, but I knew that it was sort of both a fuel and a high temperature oxidizer. So I figured I'd add it and see what
would happen.
On it's own add to the flash the Fe3O4 didn't really do all that much. So I added some magnesium and a small amount of
sulfur to help the magnesium burn more evenly because my magnesium powder was home made and courser then usual Mg
powder. There was a fairly significant increase in strength between the new powder and the powder that had only Al and KClO4.
I was wondering if any of you have ever used Fe3O4 in flash powder before. It seemed to increase the strength of the flash
quit a bit.
Cobalt.45 November 7th, 2006, 10:17 PM

You said "on it's own... the Fe didn't do... much."
Don't you think it just might have been the Mg that added "power"?
c.Tech November 8th, 2006, 01:24 AM

The added iron oxide could have worked as a thermite by increasing the temperature of the mix when ignited, increased
temperature means increased pressure (in gas laws) and if the amount added was small the temp increase could have
occurred without decreasing the burn rate.
Although the sulfur you added would have lowered the temperature IIRC.
What does everyone else think?

ressurection joe November 8th, 2006, 03:58 AM
I was just dreaming of KClO4/Al flash, but with added Mg the reaction was alot faster.
So maybe that is what happened to you as well.
Trinit November 8th, 2006, 11:45 AM

I tried a flash with out the Fe only Mg and it was not as strong as the flash with the Fe.
I am not sure. I think maybe the sulfur helped my coarse Mg powder burn more evenly by producing more flames. I am not
sure though.
I'm sorry, I didn't explain very well what I meant when I said "on it's own the Fe3O4 didn't really do all that much." What I was
talking about was.
After I set off the flash with the Fe only. I went and looked at the material left from the flash and found a fair amount of Fe
that had not been used in the reaction. I could tell that some of it had been used.
So I figured that although the flash reached a high enough temp to use the Fe it didn't not sustain the temp long enough to
use it all.
So I added the Mg to hopefully rase the temp enough that it would use all the Fe.
C.Tech I think you are right. Except the Fe does not get used immediately. I think it sort of forms a secondary reaction,
because it is used almost as soon as it is trust in the air.
It is hard to tell because it all happens so fast, but with thick sun glass you can see the second reaction take plaice.
I think the more dramatic increase in strength is because of this. I think that because the Fe is used in the air it lends more
power to the explosion then to producing thermite.
I tried one time to video tape this to see if this was the case but it didn't work very well. The camcorder recorded it pretty well
until the secondary reaction with the Fe. The reason I know that the Fe is used in the air is that.
Later when I watched the tape in slow motion I could see it ignite in the air. after the ignition though I couldn't see anything
on the video, because it blinded it.
Unfortunately even with watching the tape frame by frame. I still couldn't tell much it all just takes plaice to fast.
I am by far no expert in thermodynamics this is just my theory. What do you guys think?
Cindor November 8th, 2006, 12:42 PM

Is not that you are making thermite when adding Fe2O3, in fact thermite burns slower than flash powder. Instead, the mix
with Fe2O3 reaches higher temps, making it burns faster and increasing the volume of gas, and, in the other hand, act as a
catalyst for the reaction to take place.
augoldminer November 22nd, 2006, 10:08 PM

Be careful using sulfur in flashpowders. Years ago every time I tried to mix flashpowder with some sulfur that i picked up at a
garden shop. It would go off.
Some times as I mixed a small amount. Some times a few minutes later.
What i found was that the sulfur contained a very small trace of sulfuric acid.
This is very bad.
This sulfur was a byproduct of oil refining,
The safest is to mix about 2% baking soda in the sulfur and grind it in a mill before using.
++++++++++++++
Improve your grammar, use a spellchecker, and ALWAYS capitalize the letter I when referring to yourself. NBK
c.Tech November 27th, 2006, 10:41 PM

What oxider did you use? Was it a chlorate?
ElGreen November 28th, 2006, 03:31 AM

I use finely powdered KNO3 and S, with a special Al, that is sold in paintshops. It is so fine that I can pour like water.
I use 20g in a thin wall aluminium box, for underground blasting. I can detonate it easily with electric ignitor.
It hits my chest when detonates, This 20g makes a ball sized hole in 50 cm deep. In damp sand.
10 grams from this FP can easily break a 1000kg weight limestone into 3 parts.
gorillajoe November 28th, 2006, 05:19 AM

In my experence KClO4 / AL 70/30 by weight. I once set off 2.5lbs of it in a flipped over car, the doors blew off and the
strongest part of the frame was torn in half, the tranmission was moved about 15 inches, the seats managed to fly out the
rear window, and the mushroom cloud was at least 70 feet tall and the shockwave was felt 200 feet away.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > DDNP troubles
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View Full Version : DDNP troubles

OK I'm bringing this one up again because it seems to me that it is the perfect primary for the home chemist and the
synthesis should be relatively easy.
Nevertheless, I have never succeeded in preparing it, in spite of endless attempts. I have tried the cookbook methods in
KIBC, IPE and pyro2000 ( the one from swedish infomania ). I have tried the methods from The Chemistry of Powders and
Explosives as well as Urbanski's method. I have also tried Stanfield's method which he posted in the old DDNP-topic. So far
nothing has succeeded.
I start from picric acid which has been prepared from aspirin and recrystallized from water to remove the odd brown insoluble
residue.
I then prepare the sodium sulphide solution by boiling equal amounts of sulfur and NaOH. So far no problems. Then I add
picric acid to a solution of NaOH, this produces either a paste ( in stanfields method ) or a suspension ( in the cookbook
methods - due to larger volumes of water ). Then I get to the point where it starts to go wrong: When I slowly add the sodium
sulphide soln to the picric/NaOH soln I get almost no solid matter as most of it goes into solution ( when using all methods
except stanfield's ). Picramic acid has a solubility of 1.4 grams per litre of water at 22 C, so I speculate that sodium picramate
is actually produced instead.
I read in the Merck Index that picramic acid could be prepared from picric acid, conc ammonia soln, reduction ( with H2S I
think ) and neutralization of the ammonium product with acetic acid. I also read that it could be used as an indicator of pH as
it is red in alkaline media and yellow in acidic.
Based on this I hypothesized that it should be possible to add acetic acid to the filtrate after the reduction step and convert
the sodium picramate to picramic acid which would then be easy to recover because of the low solubility.
There is in fact precipitated a lot of matter from the filtrate upon addition of acid and the colour is closer to yellow than to red,
but I haven't gotten much further in my research at this point.
What I would like at this point is to benefit from the experiences of others who have attempted the DDNP synthesis. Especially
things such as the smallest batch size you have tried and what grade of chems you have used. Mr Cool, your method would
also be very welcome, as would an update of your homepage.
A final question: Can sodium cobalt nitrite ( Na3Co6(NO2)6 I think ) be used for diazotization? It's the only commercial nitrite
I have.

My DDNP works very well...
I coverted commercial picric acid (NOT HOMEMADE) into picramic acid (yes, sodium picramate !) then I coverted it to DDNP by a
solution of commercial sodium nitrite (and not nitrAte like many said...)
In a open area, it burns rapidly but confined in my detonators with 1 gr of PETN it works pretty well...
I don't see where you're wrong...
But now, I have abandonned the DDNP since I have Sodium Azide. Yes lead azide is easy to prepare. For making DDNP you'll
have to make Picric Acid then Picramic acid then finally, DDNP, it takes you many hours. I made lead azide just by adding 2
solutions and no ice bath is required, no heat is generated... Furthermore, the yield of Lead Azide is amazing, I filled up a big
bottle in 4 synthesis... 20 gr of DDNP taked me 7 or 8 synthesis and many of them were failed because his synthesis isn't an
easy task... there are many factor
Oh ! maybe, the only tips I can give to you is to make an ice bath with acetone (-10C) Yes, the cold is maybe the main factor
of DDNP production...
Sorry for my bad english, I'm speed up :)
[ June 28, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]

Lol, yes, the webpage! Don't worry, I have lots of free time coming up in which I can do updates... starting in about two week's
time. I might get some done before then though. Anyway...
D'oh! That sucks, I was sure I'd written up the DDNP procedure on my webpage. Oh well. A more detailed method will appear
on my website soon, but here's a rough guide:
So, you add the sodium sulphide to the sodium picrate, I'm assuming you get the nice dark red colour? This is the sodium
picramate in alkaline solution. I don't think I get any sodium picramate crystals at this stage, I can't remember now. Anyway,
filter it to get out all the crap like sulphur, dust, bits of cement and the dead fly that happen to have landed in it. Maybe only
I, with my messy-as-hell, falling-down "lab" have this problem, I don't know... wash a bit of hot water through the filter paper
to get any picramate crystals that might be in there.
When you have a nice clear solution, I recommend letting it sit in a warm place for a few days to evapourate and get nice and
strong. I'm sure you could boil off the water to make it a lot quicker, but this is the way I do it because I'm never in a hurry
and I bet hot sodium picramate stains bad...
Add H2SO4 to this solution until its pH is somewhere around 2. This ensures you have picramic acid (a kind of camel-shit
brown/yellow), as well as sodium sulphate of course.
Mix up your nitrite solution. I can't see why that crazy chemical you have wouldn't work, a nitrite ion is a nitrite ion no matter
where it came from, right? Solubility might be a problem, I don't know. You'll have to do the math to get the right amount
though, use a fairly big excess. 50% excess should hopefully be plenty. But it's better to waste nitrite that you just buy than
picramic acid which you have to spend hours making.
Get you picramic acid mixture and your nitrite solution, and get them COLD. 0*C, or as cold as you can get it without all your
solute ppting. The picramic acid should (hopefully) have ppted in the liquid before this point, when the H2SO4 was added. Now
I can't remember which you add to which, I can't even remember if it matters, but add them SLOWLY and STIR. You'll still
almost certainly get some NOx (= wasted nitrite), but hopefully not much. Just don't add it all at once like KIBC says, add it
slowly, mix it well and keep it cold. Then I left it overnight, filtered, etc.
I will put up a full method on my website when I'm a little more level headed...

I have been wondering about how to make nitrit, I cant find it commercially. It must be some way to convert for example
NANO3 to NaN02, anyone who nows a way that works good.
I need a primary that sets of picricacid in a blasting caps, I thought that DDNP might be good, but I have also found
information that Napicramate (maked by adding picricacid to NaOH in a solution, and filter) can be ignited with a fuse, is it
strong enough and how much do I need to use in a blasting cap with picricacidd.
Polverone June 28th, 2002, 05:51 PM

The standard old fashioned preparation is to use metallic lead to reduce the fused nitrate to nitrite; NaNO3 + Pb = NaNO2 +
PbO. I have tried this a couple of times and had very little success, probably because I cannot carefully control the
temperature of my melt and NaNO2 decomposes not much above its melting point.
There are a few intersting alternate methods that I have not tried because I gave up and just bought the NaNO2. Have a look
at US patents 572819, 595178, and 792215. I gleaned these from the Hive (www.the-hive-ws). You might want to go there
and search for sodium nitrite since there are a number of threads about its preparation.

I wrote above about Na-TNP, it seems really good if it works.
The only incompatibleties I have heard is that its broken down by acids, but this will be no problem with TNP(picricacid:
TNP + Na-TNP <==> Na-TNP + TNP
But i have found wery little information about this compound.
Obviously it must have some drawback, beacuse it isnt used that much, hopefully it just luck some brisance but is still strong
enough to use in a blasting cap togheter with TNP.
Anyone ho knows more about it or about brisance, amount needed to set of TNP in a blastingcap (1g) or if it is safe to store.
I have heard sensitivity to be 18,6Nm (relative low) is this true?
It is also other intressting picrates, like Pb picrate...

ok...let me dig out the notes i made earlier....
i have been experimenting with alternatvie KNO2 syths and found one which seems to work better than the lead procedure.
right, i started thinking about why lead is chosen. the answer is its reasonably reactive and it melts at a low temperature
creating a homogenous mixture with the molten KNO3 so the reaction can take place easier. i thought maybe using a more
reactive metal would help the reaction occur since a more reactive metal would oxidise much more readily and therefore reduce
the KNO3 more readily.
answer:
2Al + 3KNO3 ---> Al2O3 + 3KNO2
27*2 = 54g Al
3(39+14+48) = 303g KNO3
= 2:11 Al/KNO3 - goes to 3:11 Al/KNO3 ensures almost all KNO3 used up making a purer product due to slight excess of Al to
react with.
the Al must be in powderish form (not fin really, sure small chunks of foil would work) this provides a large surface area to
react with.
the KNO3 should be mixed with the Al and then heated to about 340*C. basically hold the KNO3/Al mix at just above its
melting point. this requires removing it periodically from the heat to control the temperature. it is critical the temperature
doesn't rise above 350*C as that is the point at which KNO2 begins to decompose. KNO3 melts at 334*C so if you have
accurate temperature control you can set it too 335*C. i heated my mixture for about 55 minutes. i can't promise this process
works as i haven't tested the KNO2 in DDNP syth yet. i am fairly sure that i have made KNO2 as it dissolves instantanously in
cold water where as KNO3 does not....its also a slight cream colour which is what i beleive is the correct colour for slightly
impure KNO2.
to extract the KNO2 simple break the solidified block (after cooling) and add a little water. next bring to the boil and pass
through a filter while still hot. next, evapourate the water from the filtrate and collect the crystals. should be reasonably pure
KNO2.

Thank you Kingpaz, just the guy i had to speak with :)
i i use NaN03 or kN03 is not a big difference I think, NaN03 decomposes at 320C instead and melts before.
A problem is that I have hard to control the temperature, i dont know if I dare to use the owen and it is also only up to 300C
The best had been to run it in the barbecue or something, but where do I find a thermometer for 350C?
100um Al is okay? I dont know what MESH, this is.
i found this in Hive, good, test this Kingpaz:
An aq. sol. of NaNO3 is neutral but a Aq. Sol. af NaNO2 is alkaline (App. pH 9) NaNO2 evolute brown fumes (N2O3) whith weak
acid. NaNO3 do not.

thanks for that nitrite test. i'll test it tomorrow if i remember.
viemane, what you need is a petrol camping stove. i use one and it works great. it gets VERY hot VERY fast and is also cheap
to run and reliable. i think a tin can on the end of a stick would work best. garden canes work well for holding things over
flames so long as the flame doesn;t touch it. they only burn if the flame hits it but if not they are quite resistent to heat.
if you have any other small questions about the procedure (which i am carrying out on a larger scale tomrrow) then email me
so as not to clog this thread with one line questions.

I remember that I posted a LOT about this method including a good chem test to prove the XNO2 exists with Iron sulphate
and vinegar. I suggest having a look at it but I can't remember what the thread was called sorry. <img border="0" title=""
alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

I remember that thread Mongo, I think it was called something along the lines of "Nitrate/Nitrite".
Knigspaz: Isn't this method rather dangerous ? Al/KNO3 is a flash composition right ?
I suppose that a molten mass might be too poor at propagating the flame throughout the mass, but still... Maybe you could
increase safety by first melting the KNO3 and then stirring in the Al.
Mr Cool: Thanks for that post; that's the kind of response I was hoping for. How about your nitrite was that from a chem
supplyer ?
BTW, I'm really looking forward to that update....
Mr Cool June 29th, 2002, 11:19 AM

I'm glad that post came out OK, I was a little bit drunk when I wrote it...
Yeah, I cheated and bought NaNO2 instead of making it. I've used TNP from aspirins and phenol, both have worked.
What's sodium cobalt nitrite used for? I'm very surprised you can find that and not NaNO2. I bet it's a lot more expensive, too.
If you know of a furniture/antiques restorer, ask them if they know where to buy NaNO2. Apparently it's used for making
metals look old/less shiny.
I think I'll do something on my website now, maybe just add some navigation aids and a recipe or two... but most things will
have to wait a while.
I hope it's worth the wait!
Microtek June 29th, 2002, 01:22 PM

Sodium cobalt nitrite is used as an indicator for potassium according to Merck. It is not very poisonous as Na- or KNO2 is, and
I got it from a lab depot where I taught for a while. The regulations around here means that I can buy many chemicals from a
chem supplyer because I work freelance for a small R&D company. The thing is, this company solely does theoretical design
work, so they don't need any chems at all - I just use their company status to be able to buy from the supplyer. However, if
you want to buy chems that are marked as toxic or very toxic, you need a permit from some sort of health department.
This permit is routinely obtained by legitimate businesses, but I'm afraid that they need to see the work area, so I haven't
applied.
Anyway, this means that I can buy pentaerythritol and other useful stuff, but no nitrite or sodium azide or phenol.

How poisounous are sodiumnitrite? it IS posiounos, but its used to salt meat so, it cant be that badly really.
I have heard that sodiumnitrite has an limited storagetime, is this true? This is a very important question, if you do a large
batch and half a year later you try to use it and all is fucked upp...

see, if its used to treat meat to keep it tender or whatever then how can it be terribly toxic? just out of interest KNO3 used to
be used until it was found that this worked by bacteria breaking it down KNO2 which did the meat thing (my minds goin i can't
remember exactly what it does!)
anyways, check these contrasting links:
<a href="http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/ChemMSDS/SODIUM%20NITRITE.html" target="_blank">http://

www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/ChemMSDS/SODIUM%20NITRITE.html</a>
<a href="http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_nitrite.html" target="_blank">http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/

sodium_nitrite.html</a>
i'm going to treat it as if it were KNO3. so basically don't eat it, try to avoid contact unless unavoidable and wash hands well
after handling. speaking of KNO2, i've just finished a batch in which i'm expecting around 50-60g out of a possible 80g. i only
heated it for 40 minutes but it solidified after 35 miutes. KNO2 melts at 420*C i think so most KNO3 must have been
converted by this time.
microtek, i don't think the procedure is that dangerous as there is very little Al compared to the amount required for
combustion. also i think so long as the temperature doesn't rise to the deomposition point of KNO3 or KNO2 then it should be
ok as no oxidising gasses will be present. so you just need to heat until it only just melts then hold it around that temperature
using the melting/solidifying as an approximation of 334*C. know what i mean?
[ July 01, 2002, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]

Yes it was found out that KN03 could be turned into KN02 by some bacterias in small kids stomach. This poisoned them.
Iam pretty shure that I have read that meat were salted using NaNo2, but it could have been some other nitrite.
So... How posionous are nitrite?
And how stable is it, which is the product it decomposes in, and how fast?
CyclonitePyro July 1st, 2002, 08:09 PM

Some friends and I buy MRE's (Meal Ready to Eat) when we have a small outdoor party, so we don't have to worry about
cooking food. The main course on every one contains sodium nitrite.
Most pork products have it too, hotdogs for one. It can't be that poisonous could it. There is a lot of shit in our food that is
toxic, we just don't eat large quantities of it. Sodium Flouide is in some people's water, toothpaste, mouthwash and
treatments at the dentist, and perhaps in milk, it is highly toxic. Wait, no...our friendly government says it's good for me.
da man July 10th, 2002, 04:32 AM

Mr Cool, would you mind posting the ratios of the chemicals used? I am planning on making some picramic acid, and
eventually DDNP, from 22g of picric acid i recently made from aspirin, so i would greatly appreciate it if you posted the
amounts you used for picramic acid. Also, what kind of yield did you get for the conversion of picric acid to picramic acid?
Thankyou for your help.
BTW, your site has picramic acid, and DDNP listed on the procedures list, but the procedure isn't actually written there!
[ July 10, 2002, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: da man ]

I've just finished making a batch so that I can put up everything on my webpage (I had it all written down, but lost my notes
:( ). It'll be written up later today with any luck.
I used the KIBC method but with slightly different ratios (mainly because my accurate scale has run out of battery, so I had to
be a bit rougher), so 2g of NaOH and 9g of TNP, 8g of S and 8g of NaOH, I added conc. H2SO4 to the sodium picramate until
it went light brown and then added 6mL more. I then filtered out the picramic acid, washed, dried and weighed it, but you don't
have to do this. I added it to 200mL of water, and added 10mL of conc. H2SO4 and I used 10g of NaNO2, in a room-
temperature almost saturated solution, just to make sure that there was enough.
The picramic acid doesn't seem very soluble (unless of course I have a lot of impurities which don't dissolve, but I don't think
that's the case), but I didn't want to add more water to make it all dissolve because DDNP is slightly water soluble and I didn't
want to reduce the yields further. I figured it should still react slowly even if it isn't in solution.
The yield of picramic acid from TNP seems very good, I haven't worked it out yet but it'll be on my site when I do.
When you've made the DDNP, dissolve it in acetone and filter it to remove impurities. I think these are unreacted picramic
acid, in which case they could be dissolved in NaOH solution, filtered, and ppted by adding H2SO4. They would then be pure
enough to be recycled.
Another thing I have noticed is that when the reaction works, the solution (with picramic acid, H2SO4 and NaNO2) goes red or
orange/brown, when it does not it is a lighter yellow/brown. I intend to do some more experimenting to see if I can figure out
what's going on.
Actually, before I write it up, I think I'll make some picramic acid and then try Mega's procedure for converting it into DDNP, to
see if it's any better. Or maybe I'll check the ratios of the KIBC method and see if anything doesn't seem right.
Edit: actually, you might want to try purifying the DDNP with an alcohol instead of acetone. I don't know how soluble it is in
ethanol (or whatever you decide to use), but with acetone you might get condensation reactions between the carbonyl group
and the -NH2 on the unreacted picramic acid, and it might then be harder to recycle.
Edit: something else I forgot to mention is that you should have good ventilation when acidifying the sodium picramate
solution. H2S and SO2 will be released, from unreacted Na2S and Na2SO3 formed when making the Na2S.
[ July 10, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]

i am also about to carry out the diazon reaction mr cool. KIBC does not do it the way i would...infact the stuff you filter is
sodium picramate which is then converted to picrric acid by the addition of H2SO4, the excess being added so the is acid
present to convert KNO2 to HNO2.
the i would do it would be:
prepare a slight excess of Na2S using NaOH and a slight excess of S (so all NaOH used up). mix in solution and heat until its
done reacting. pass through a filter to remove excess S. next add the correct amount of picric acid to this. since there is a
slight excess Na2S all TNP is used up.
then to this add a solution of HNO2 prepared from dilute H2SO4 and KNO2. then add ice water after the reaction is complete
and filter.
my method is much easier on chemicals and the brain but my question is why does KIBC do some rounderbout synth?

I wouldn't call the KIBC method roundabout: make sodium picramate, purify it, convert to picramic acid, diazotise.
Your proposed method is essentially the same, except that you purify the picramic acid of unreacted S before you make it, if
you see what I mean, and acidify the NaNO2 rather than the picramic acid solution.
And I'm afraid your plan has two (very minor) flaws compared to the KIBC method: 1) the reaction between NaOH and S
probably won't react all the NaOH, so you will still have to acidify the picramic acid to make sure that there's no OH- to
interfere with anything, and 2) HNO2 is unstable, so it'd be a bad idea to make this first rather than in situ, as it will slowly
decompose. If you add all the HNO2 at once this won't be a problem, but if you do it drop by drop then it could be. Very minor
flaws like I said, but the other method doesn't have them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .
I think next time I do it I'll make the picramic acid and wash it, then use excess NaNO2 and a slight excess of HCl to convert
all the NaNO2 into HNO2. I like your idea of working out the amount of acid needed, rather than just adding it 'til you think
you've added enough!
Microtek July 11th, 2002, 05:15 AM

I've decided that the most probable cause of my failure is the impurity of my nitrite. Therefore, I am going to try using a
method which does not need nitrite. One such method is to dissolve picramic acid in ethanol and bubble N2O through the
solution. Picramic acid is easy to prepare and is sufficiently insoluble in water that little is lost during washing. N2O should be
easy to prepare from AN.
Yield may not be overwhelming ( though I don't know for sure ), but at this point I'll be satisfied with any product at all.
This leads my to ask what your picramic acid looks like when obtained by acidifying the red sodium picramate soln. Is it yellow
or red ( mine is yellow ) ? Does it dissolve in acetone and what is its solubility in this and in ethanol ?
PS: I've always preferred to react chemicals in solution if possible, to avoid unreacted chems in the center of solid particles.
For this reason I have tried adding the KNO2 to the sodium picramate soln before acidifying. The result was the same as
always: A brown/yellowish precipitate which was barely flammable, but which would give a weak puff if heated to deflagration on
a piece of Al foil.
PPS: It just ocurred to me that it may not be N2O but rather NOx that needs to be bubbled through the alcoholic soln of
picramic acid.
[ July 11, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Microtek ]

I was thinking about using the normal method, but with ethanol as the solvent during the diazotisation... I'll try this next time,
I made some more TNP last night so I'll try it today or tomorrow.
My picramic acid could be called "yellow", but it isn't a nice yellow. Nothing like this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" /> , for example. "Dirty" might be a better word to describe it's colour! It's certainly not red, it's more yellow than
anything else.
I'm afraid I didn't do any experiments on its solubility, this is another thing I will do next time. Although I'm not sure if I have
any acetone left...
I think you would need to bubble through a mixture of NO and NO2, equal molar amounts of each, to convert the picramic
acid:
2 (-OH) + 2 (-NH2) + NO + NO2 --> 2(-O-N=N-) + 3 H2O
This gas mixture could be obtained with your impure nitrite by warming it with acid:
2 XNO2 + 2 HY -warm-> 2 XY + H2O + NO + NO2

i tired the DDNP synth i suggested and it appeared to work ok until i added the KNO2. the mix then turned yellow and after all
the KNO2 had dissolved i was left with a liquid full of crystals. upon filtration they appeared a grey/brown colour. i then tried to
dissolve them in boiling acetone which didn't work too well as i ended up with a red solution with lumps at the bottom...i'll test
some of the lumps i collected once they dry for sensitivity.

Kingspaz: any DDNP will be in the acetone solution, I think the lumps are mainly picramic acid.

shit!
i also forgot to mention when i dumped the acetone solutino into ice water the solutino turned yellow and nothin crystalised.
sorry i fogot to say that.
Microtek July 16th, 2002, 12:12 PM

Kingspaz: That's almost exactly what happens when I do it. The brownish lumps that are insoluble in acetone are flammable,
but definitely not a primary explosive and the acetone solution is reddish as you say. When this solution is dumped into cold
water, the liquid becomes a foggy yellow and it seems that there is a lot of precipitate floating around, but it never ( after a
week ) collects at the bottom and is too fine for filtering off, even with good filter paper.

thats good then. well its bad but good. its bad that it happens. infact its fuckin gay that it happens but its good that i'm not
the only one, which shows at least the method i used was ok.
microtek, can you post the ratios you used and state where you aquire them. i think i may know what the problem is.
right i used:
180g H2SO4 (approximately 30% from car battery, excess should have used 120g and still would have been excess)
20g KNO2 (impure prepared from Al powder and KNO3, calculated to need about 5g if i remember correctly)
?g TNP (prepared from ASA from aspirins) i can't remmebr how much TNP i used. i think i used 15g actually
errr
5g NaOH
5g S (excess)
i used the procedure i stated in a post above somewhere.
Microtek July 17th, 2002, 03:08 AM

I used 3 g TNP from aspirin, re-crystallized from water to remove lesser nitrated phenols. I think I used 0.5 g NaOH to react
with the TNP and 2.5 g NaOH plus 2.5 g sulfur for the sodium sulfide.
The NaOH and the sulfur where commercial products.
I then used a number of different procedures for the diazotization step, using either Na3(CoNO2)6 ( lab grade ) or homemade
KNO2 from lead + KNO3 recrystallized several times from water. The acid were either HCl or dilute H2SO4, both commercial
and quite pure.

I also remember getting a red acetone solution with lumps, but I can't remember whether that was a time that worked or a
time that failed :( I know I always get lumps, but I can't remember what colour the solution was.
But DON'T dump it into water, boil the acetone off over a water bath instead. I was surprised by DDNP's solubility in water.

shit...i've probably got a DDNP solution in the conservitory! i'll have another go at the weekend if i have time using the
picramic acid (lumps) from the last attempt. no actually i won't. i'll make a shit load of KNO2 and purify it instead of using the
raw shit i used last time. thanks for the help guys! if my procedure works then i'll write it up properly for you microtek as it
uses less chemicals.

If you can be bothered, it might be worth using H2S instead of Na2S (just add a sulphide to an acid, and bubble the gas
through your TNP soln.) and NO and NO2 instead of KNO2 and HCl/H2SO4. Add your impure nitrite to an acid, warm it, and
pass the gases through the picramic acid solution (in ethanol?). This will keep everything nice and pure, and it means that you
won't have to waste any KNO2 in purification.
Both gases should be added slowly, with good stirring, and in a tall, narrow container to ensure maximum efficiency.

haha, i think for me it would be less hassle to lose some KNO2 in purification. but it think next time i carry out the reduction of
TNP i will add the solution to water to precipitate the picramic acid. then i will use that in a H2SO4 solution and add the
hopefully purer KNO2.
edit: it'll probably be somtime next weekend i do this because i have alot to do this weekend and the beginning of next week.
da man August 3rd, 2002, 09:09 PM

Mr Cool, i've tried the exact procedure you said twice now and both times it didn't work! The first part of getting picramic acid
works well. However on the second step, i put the picramic acid in water(which just stays under water, and doesn't dissolve) ,
add sulphuric acid, cool the solution to below 5*C, and then slowly add my saturated solution of sodium nitrite (bought from a
lab NOT homemade). As i add the sodium nitrite, the solution fizzes a bit (decomposed nitrite). I then leave it over night, and
in the morning, the picramic acid is still sitting on the bottom unchanged!! :mad:
Why doesn't it work? What am i doing wrong? Also what changes do you see happen to the picramic acid, when it is diazotised?
da man August 3rd, 2002, 11:07 PM

This is so wierd! I just filtered off (from the sodium nitrite/sulphuric acid mix) what i thought was still unreacted picramic acid. I
then boiled 200ml of water, and dissolved 10g of NaOH in it, and dumped the picramic acid in it. The solution went a very dark
red as expected but there was a yellow/brown precipitate on the bottom of the solution. I added more NaOH, but it didn't
dissolve or change. Then my bloody thermometer broke, spilling mercury into the solution, which got mixed into the
precipitate at the bottom. And after a while of sitting, there is a very small amount of black precipitate at the bottom (probably
mercury picramate :D hehe, could be interesting). Anyway i filtered off the yellow/brown precipitate at the bottom, took a
sample, and tried to dissolve it in acetone. The yellow/brown stuff didn't dissolve, but the acetone turned BLUE!!! like it had
copper sulfate dissolved in it or something!!! Maybe this is the mercury picramate (or whatever that black shit is), i don't know,
but i guess the yellow/brown precipitate couldn't be DDNP if it doesn't dissolve in acetone :( Oh well, i guess i will try reacting
the sodium picramate solution with sodium nitite, and HCl now.
This is getting so frustrating, nothing works!! Can anyone help me as to what im doing wrong and what the hell is going on?!
Thankyou
Edit: Ok, this yellow/brown precipitate is not:

1) Picramic acid (doesn't react with sodium hydroxide)
2) DDNP (does not dissolve in acetone, does not burn quickly, just smoulders and leaves behind a peice of carbon)
3) picric acid (insoluable in water, doesn't react with sodium hydroxide)
4) Anything else i can think of!!
I've done this reaction another couple of times, and each time i get a mixture of picramic acid, and this yellow shit!! I'm really
getting pissed off! Could it be some impurity from when i was making picramic acid??
[ August 04, 2002, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: da man ]

the problem is to get the picramic acid to dissolve. what i'm hoping to try is dissolving the picramic acid into hot H2SO4 (98%)
then adding this slowly to a KNO2 solution with vigourous stiring. that way the picramic will not precipitate out...hopefully...
the yellow precipitate is picramic acid also i believe. after i made some picramic acid with Na2Sx and TNP i ended up with a
brilliant yellow precpitate which looked kinda globular.

Kingspaz, if you use very concentrated acid like that and add a solution of KNO2, i'm afraid that the KNO2 will decompose
instantly into NOx. Even with 30% HCl it decomposes instantly into NOx!!
Possibly there is some other solvent that could be used though.
And the yellow/brown precipitate i keep getting is not picramic acid, because even with numerous attempts, it will not dissolve
in hot sodium hydroxide solution!

da man, you misunderstood what i said. i said i will dissolve the picramic acid in hot H2SO4 then add this a little at a time to a
KNO2 solution. if i stir it alot then the acid will mix with the solution and be diluted. how did it go when you tired picramic,
NaNO2 and HCl?

Even with that method, you will still get an awful lot of KNO2 being wasted.
An idea I have been thinking of is to dissolve the picramic acid in methylene dichloride, adding it to an aqueous solution of a
nitrite (thus forming two layers), stirring it very rapidly and dripping in the acid. This will be a slower reaction, since the HNO2
will have to diffuse into the MeCl2, but I think that picramic acid should be quite soluble in MeCl2, so you will get a much more
complete reaction. Maybe.
Da man: I don't know what is wrong. It fails very often for me too, I don't know why :(
I think the main problem is the low solubility of picramic acid in water, I think the MeCl2 method might solve this. Next time
I'm in a mood for experimentation I might try it, but it won't be very soon since I use Pb(N3)2 as a primary.
Edit: stupid error.
[ August 05, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]

The military use this primary don't they? Is it used at all in industry? It would be interesting to know how they perform the
reaction? Does anyone have any information on how they do it?
Al Koholic December 2nd, 2002, 11:15 PM

OK....it seems to me that both this and the archived file on DDNP are pretty inconclusive. I have just spent the last 8 hours
messing around with the procedure just for making picramic acid. FIrst of all, I know that a good deal of my trouble comes
from there not being a good proceudre out there. I found recipies and all but none of them say for example "the x should now
appear so and so..." or "there should now be a precipitate" or something along those lines. For me, since I didnt know what it
SHOULD be doing it got kind of creative along the way and I believe that right now I mayyyyyy just have some picramic acid
filtering out as we speak but that will remain to be seen. Bottom line is this:
1) Should one filter the Na2S solution if there is some undissolved residue in the bottom at the end of the reaction?
2) When making the TNP/NaOH solution, should one make sure that ALL the TNP has dissolved? When I just did it, it did not
all dissolve in the amount of water I used.
3) When adding them together, I added the TNP/NaOH solution to the Na2S solution in small batches. The first addition the
whole thing turned greenish grey (from one red/black Na2S solution and one bright orange TNP/NaOH solution). Then upon
subsequent additions it turned progressively more red/brown. Should this happen? There was an awful lot of what looked like
unreacted TNP at the end in the bottom of the beaker.
Here are the chems and amts I used:

-to 200ml of H20 I added 20 grams of NaOH and 20g of powdered S. Heated it and got the Na2S solution. There was a little
insoluble residue in the bottom from impurities in the S but I didnt worry about it.
-to 180ml of H2O, I added 20g TNP and 3g NaOH. This was bright orange in color and not all the TNP dissolved.
When adding I experienced the noted color changes but also at the second to last addition, the resulting solution was getting
to the consistency of paste, then at the last addition it turned back to liquid and got increasingly liquid upon standing. I let it
stand for 30 min with stirring every 5 min. Then filtered it. I have a lot of yellow precipitate in the filter paper and a beaker of
dark fluid. I added the yellow precip to water to store and mess with later. The dark filtrate I thought might be sodium
picramate so I added 93% H2SO4. This caused black/brown precipitate to fall out. With increasing addition of H2SO4, some of
the brown precip disappeared and the black was left and these were HUGE crystals. Soooo, I added more of the original filtrate
to counteract what I thought was too much acid added. THe brown crystals returned to coexist with the bigass black ones.
Unfortunately I did not document how much acid I was adding, this was kinda just messing with it. Anyway, I was able to test
some of the black crystal and it does not dissolve in water to any appreciable extent....still waiting on the main precip though.
Lemme know what you guys think and maybe....just maybe....we can keep this going till we reach a concensus on what exactly
needs to happen b/c as far as I am concerned the net just does not contain too much accurate info on picramic acid synth.
ANyway, just a suggestion.
Al
kingspaz December 3rd, 2002, 06:19 PM

Al, try using less water for the TNP/NaOH reaction and try using a little more NaOH. you could work this out yourself you know.
basically if you acidified the solution that you made from Na-picrate and Na2Sx and got a precipitate then it is picramic acid. i
think the acid you used was waaaaay to higher concentration. you should have first diluted it down to around 30% and used
that instead.
also DDNP synth is a bitch so 'messing around' is only going to waste chemicals and could be your downfall if you mess the
wrong way and it blows up in your face. picramic acid is also explosive :rolleyes:

picramic acid isn't very sensitive ! I never got an accident with it ! don't worry...

stanfield, i'm not worried and i know its not very sensitive. i was just pointing out to him that if he keeps messing round
sooner or later something will blow up in his face. sensitive or not all explosives should be handled with care and treated with
respect.
Al Koholic December 31st, 2002, 03:33 AM

Thanks for the advice kingspaz...the messing around is kind of how i get a feel for what i'll be doing in the future...breaking
ground...proof of concept kind of thing. Anyway I don't have a shortage of chemicals around at all so the loss is not an issue,
plus I only do small quantities.
Anyway getting back to the point here, since the messing around stage is over, I have been working on getting this synth to
work now in a much more exact way and have come to a few conclusions: either I am blatantly missing something, Im not
using pure enough chemicals, and I am going to scour my university library when I get back from xmas break for a good
synth. I have some interesting stuff on making picramic acid itself which I'll scan and upload to the ftp. The article explains
how adding NaHCO3 to the Na2S solution will increase the yeild because of the higher prevalance of NaHS and how using a
60% methanol solution instead of plain water in the TNP/NaOH step increases yeild to like 97%.
Just now I:
Made a Na2S solution with 7.5 grams of NaOH and S.
Made a sodium picrate solution with 1.5 g NaOH and 9 g TNP. I believe I should probably use a tad bit more NaOH.
When I mix these two however I obtain a water insoluble off white precipitate and the liquid turns blood red. The red solution
is an indication to me that picramic acid is forming but the off white precip is stumping me. I do not obtain red crystals
contrary to the common recipe going around. I wonder if anyone has ever gotten this precip as well? Anyway...from there on I
add the precip to boiling water and filter hot and end up with a red solution (this is most likely from the residue on the
powder). To the red solution I add by drop H2S04 (93%) till it changes to yellow (supposed to be brown) and then I add 7
grams more acid. This is mixed with 5.4 grams NaN02 in 240ml H2O and I end up with a yellow solution which bubbles like a
soda fizzing (only NO2 comes off instead of CO2 hehe). However NO DDNP.
I believe this is my next step...

Purify the sulfur I use. It is 90% powdered sulfur...10% inert ingredients, used for gardening. Im going to dissolve the S in
EtOH, filter, and evap EtOH into a condenser for re-use. The problem I am having is that not all of the sulfur is reacting in the
boiling mix so I think either impurities are getting in the way OR I am not using correct amounts of each substance (however I
am following the synth). I will try some experiments tomorrow to determine how much NaOH I need to use to fully react the
sulfur.
Anyone have a suggestion?

Al
kingspaz December 31st, 2002, 05:55 AM

the white precipitate is picramic acid. the red solution is picramic acid which has reacted with excess NaOH to form sodium
picramate. the red crystals which are supposed to be formed are sodium picramate which then gets converted back into
picramic acid upon addition of the H2SO4. the problem with the sodium picramate is that it is an absolute bitch to crystalise!!!
i ended up with a super saturated solution some how during one of my attempts. it just wouldn't crystalise then i thought i'd
just pour it through the filter and hope for the best then it just fell out of solution instantly. weird...
Microtek December 31st, 2002, 07:35 AM

Sodium picramate is very soluble in water, though I forget the exact numbers. Picramic acid is very insoluble ( less than a
gram per liter at 20 C I think ).
The reaction of NaOH with S also produces Na2S2O3 :
6 NaOH + 4 S --> 2 Na2S + Na2S2O3 + 3 H2O
When this solution is reacted with HCl large amounts of a yellow precipitate which I think must be free sulfur is formed ( along
with lots of H2S of course ).
If H2S is bubbled through NaOH soln, NaHS is formed which is at least as desirable for partial nitro reduction as Na2S. You
could also mix the soln from the reaction of NaOH and S with a soln of a Zn(II) salt to precipitate ZnS first, then isolate this
and react it with H2SO4 to produce H2S. H2S could be used to make NaHS as mentioned or it could be used directly by
bubbling through a soln of picric acid or Na-picramate.
BTW, I did some research on the subject of partial reduction of polynitro aromatics and found that the reaction is not as fast
as the recipes for DDNP imply; the reaction is preferably done at 70-80 C and takes 30-45 minutes. Another point was that pH
of the reaction should preferably be kept between 7.5 and 9.0 .
Al Koholic December 31st, 2002, 02:53 PM

Kingspaz, that is quite interesting about your attempt. How much sodium picramate precipitated and was it mixed with picramic
acid as well?
Microtek, where have you been conducting this research? I have scoured all the sources I can think of on the web and all I can
come up with is that regular procedure (I think you know the one I speak of), which is quite inadequate.
I was thinking that if I'm getting a bunch of picramic acid as precipitate, then could I not just add some amount of NaOH
solution (most likely quite concnetrated) to convert the free acid into the sodium salt before I filter the solution which results
from the mixing of the Na2S and NaOH/TNP solutions? If this would not work wouldn't it also be possible to keep the filtered
picramic acid and add it to a new solution of NaOH?
Al
kingspaz December 31st, 2002, 09:10 PM

i think the only reason it is filtered in most 'recipies' is to purify it. the problem seems to be getting picramic acid to be
soluble. i can't see it reacting properly if it insoluble. well, i think that is part of the problem.
Al Koholic January 2nd, 2003, 01:26 AM

Kingspaz, looking at merck just now I read that picramic acid is a red crystaline substance. This is prepared from the
ammonium salt in this case but that shouldn't matter. What then could the white stuff be?
Microtek January 2nd, 2003, 06:55 AM

Picramic acid is red if it is crystallised from alcohol but it is yellow in acidic medium.
Al Koholic January 9th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Alrighty, I just made another attempt at DDNP. Well, more accurately, I am in the middle of it.
I have come up with a fairly decent method of making a good amount of picramic acid (I have not weighed my yeild yet...still
filtering).
1) Heat to boiling or almost boiling; 7.5g of Sulfur and 7.5g NaOH in 250 ml of H20 for 20 minutes, or until the reaction looks
complete.
2) Turn off heat source. Add 4 grams of NaHCO3 to 50 ml of H2O. Slowly add this solution with stirring to the Na2S solution
and allow to cool to room temperature. Upon addition, the Na2S solution will turn from dark red to a bright orange. Filter this
solution and discard the crystals/powder collected.
3) Add this solution slowly to a solution of Sodium Picrate prepared from 9g TNP and 1.5g NaOH. I used about 275 ml of H2O
to get all the Sodium Picrate to dissolve. There was only a small amount of residual powder that did not dissolve. The
temperature of the added water was 60 C and this was maintained on a water bath.
4) Maintaining the 60 C temp, add the reducing solution which was prepared before to the Sodium Picrate solution slowly over
the course of 15 minutes with constant stirring. Once it is all added, allow the mixture to sit on the heat source for an
additional 25 minutes.
5) Allow this solution to cool to room temperature and filter it. There will be a small amount of off white crystals collected in the
filter paper (I assume a small amount of picramic acid...). Wash the filter paper with hot water and discard the off white
crystals.
6) To the resultant, dark red solution, add enough 15% HCL to cause crystallization of the picramic acid as a red precipitate.
Continue adding the dilute acid with constant stirring until it is visible that no more picramic acid is crystalizing. Sorry I did not
get a quantitative measurement on the volume of acid I added. The color of the liquid phase of the mixture will now be a light
milky brown.
7) Filter the crystals out. (This is where I am now).
This part seems very easy. I did the same thing last night and then followed the rest of the KIBC recipe and I got some
crystals but not very much and when I attempted to wash them with a small amt of water they dissolved....is DDNP very wate
soluble?! I didn't think it was...
edit:
BTW Microtek, after reading the first post I remembered to add this:
I use TNP prepared from pure ASA, recrysalized from denatured alcohol. The NaOH I use came from "Draino Crystal" drain
cleaner. It is also quite pure as I recrystalize it from distilled water. The sulfur is unfortunately only 90% pure (used for
gardening). The other 10% I believe is inert filler. Im working on getting a way to purify this too...most likely with acetone the
same way I do with ASA.
[ February 11, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Al Koholic ]

OK, I've had a little think, and might possibly have found a very obvious reason why it keeps failing. Maybe.
DDNP is not the same thing as diazotised picramic acid. Diazotised picramic acid is ionic, and you basically need to remove HCl
(if that's what acid you used in the diazotisation reaction) to form the bicyclic DDNP molecule from the diazonium ion.
Every method I've seen attempts to produce DDNP in a strongly acidic medium, because diazotisation requires acid. Therefore,
the equilibrium
DDNP + HCl <==> diazotised picramic acid
will be far to the right, because the DDNP is protonated. This makes it ionic, and therefore more soluble in water. In order to
ppte it, maybe it needs to be deprotonated?
What I propose is this: next time anyone tries to make DDNP, assuming they fail, try basifying your reaction mixture with a
load of NaOH.
It's worth a try.
Comments?
stanfield February 11th, 2003, 12:17 PM

I don't make DDNP anymore since I have sodium azide but, I uploaded a file on the forum ftp, in the "-=upload=-" directory,
named "Method for producing diazodinitrophenol - upped by Stanfield.rar". It'a an interesting patent I've found.
It says : " <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Where the acid is added gradually for the production of DDNP in a free-flowing form, the
addition will be at a relatively slow rate, say, for example, at a rate of about 0,001 grams HCl per minute per gram of sodium
picramate, [...] <hr /></blockquote>The rate of addition is really low,
maybe it's required to sucess the synthesis ?
Al Koholic February 11th, 2003, 03:46 PM

Thats another one of those variables I am just not sure about. Some people and sources claim the addition has to be very
slow. Some say dump all at once with rapid stirring....
I'm not attempting any more DDNP until I have made pure Na2S to use in my solution.
Mr Cool...
When you say "diazotised picramic acid" are you thinking of like N2+ and O- on the ring? If so I could see that
happening...the charges being stabilized by the Cl- and H+ respectively...
The last attempt I made (3 posts up) ended up in pretty bad shape. I did manage to precipitate what I believe is picramic
acid but not a lot. I got like 2 grams tops. It is a redish/brown crystal. I dissolved it in alcohol, then filtered and separated out
a lot of insoluble black powder. I evaporated the alcohol and got red/brown crystals I have now. I have a paper with a bunch of
research into reducing TNP to Picramic....they got 96% yield with one of the reducing solutions. I clearly have a lot of
preparation to do before I get anything like that.
andreas February 13th, 2003, 03:38 PM
As far as I know DDNP is broken down in a cold KOH or NaOH soln.
I may be wrong. But I bought me some asprin so I will be doing some new experiments in a few days.

OK, maybe making the solution basic is a bad idea. But I still think getting rid of some of the acid is a good idea.
<a href="http://www.boomspeed.com/mrcool/DDNP-Theory.jpg" target="_blank">This</a> should help to illustrate what I'm
thinking.
I have nothing to support this, it's just an idea.

That looks like a good diagram to me in theory. I can't really offer anything of use on the subject. It may behave that way
and IMHO it should but you never know.

I've got the feeling I'm missing something here, altough I can't put my finger on it. difficult to explain!
But I must say when I look at it it seems right.
Maybe in a neutral soln?
But if you want to get as much acid out as possible you need to know if ddnp causes a basic or an acidic soln. with the little bit
that does dissolve. If my post doesn't make sence I'm a little drunk at the moment.
I've made some TNP yesterday so I will try a new batch of ddnp sson I hope.
First I want to get some pure sulpher as I always use the garden stuf of wich I purified the brown stuff out of.
[ February 16, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: andreas ]
Al Koholic February 15th, 2003, 02:32 AM

Well Ill tell you what...Ive been drinking pretty hardcore for the last 3 hours and before that I was drinking (at bowling league)
pretty regularly for 3 hours as well. Fridays tend to be this way for me even though Im taking the MCAT in like 3 months.
Anyway, the only application I can apply to this structure would be that of an amino acid... I begin to wonder what the pI of
DDNP would be....
Disregard this post...it may be completely useless as was my last one.....I appologize for this lack of informative content. I'll
have MUCH more real info in a few week probably.
Peace
Al
andreas February 17th, 2003, 11:59 AM

Whell I've had another try today and it failed misserably again.
When I added the "believed to be sodiumsulfide soln" to the sodiumpicrate soln. I didn't even get a precipitate.
Whell then I acidified it thinking that I had sodium picramate and it turned yellow and I got a precipitate. This however smells
like SO2 when burned and is a light precipitate. When I tried to diazotisize it, it didn't do anything.
Any thoughts on this.
I used the kibe method.
And used agricultural sulpher wich in holland is called (spuitzwavel)
wich is translated freely (hosingsulpher) it is used as a fungicide

I've gotten that light flakey precipitate before as well. In fact, I've gotten it almost every time I do this reaction and now I
have to purify the supossed picramic by dissolving it in ethanol and filtering out that stuff.
I believe that the material is what is referred to in a journal article on reduction of TNP as "sulfide dyes". I am not entirely
certain what this is supposed to mean in terms of chemical structure but apparently they are a significant by-product of this
reduction reaction, ESPECIALLY when utilizing non-optimal solutions and reagents(which the KIBC method is full of).
How much acid did you add to the solution and what was its concentration? For the regular KIBC method, I was adding between
20 and 30 ml of concentrated (31.4%) HCl to the solution. This was most likely too much but it takes quite a bit to precipitate
ALL of the picramic acid. BTW, when you mixed the two solutions did the solution change color at all? It should have ended up
blood red if you got any reduction at all...
Al

Never herd of it. But I added about 30ml of 50% H2SO4. When I added the reducting solution it turned blood red indeed. But
the precip I got after the acid was more like sulpher.
Polverone February 17th, 2003, 09:04 PM

I managed to track down a non-fringe-literature source for the preparation of picramic acid, from a book on dye chemistry.
The instructions given are more detailed than those found in KIBC and the like, and hopefully will give good results.
<a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/picramic.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/

picramic.pdf</a>
Polverone, I have some good articles from various chemical journals regarding picramic acid and DDNP. I have photocopied
them from the journals and have them now. I also have a scanner but I do not know how to turn them into .pdf format. Once I
research it and figure it out I'll upload them to the FTP, or I can email them to you. I don't know how to post it on the web like
you did with that link.
Polverone February 18th, 2003, 03:13 AM

If you give me scans I can perform OCR, convert them to PDF, and host them. Check your e-mail.
kingspaz February 18th, 2003, 09:09 AM

does anybody know why reduction is prefered on 2 and 6 as opposed to 4? or is it at all?

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the resonance distribution of electrons in the ring and how it affects the ring
substituents.
The oxygens on the nitro groups should have a partial negative charge and the nitrogen, a positive 1 charge. This makes the
O slightly nucleophilic. Then you have the OH group. This could lose its H and become a negative 1 oxygen as well. But more
importantly I believe is the ability of the non-bonding electrons of the oxygen in the OH group to make donate electrons to
the ring. This is why OH is an activating group if I'm not mistaken. Nitro groups have a tendency to withdraw electrons from the
ring and hence, deactivate it.
Anyway, drawing out the structure of TNP shows me that if one of the non-bonding pairs of electrons in the OH oxygen were to
form a transient bond with the carbon it is attached to resulting in a double bond, you will end up with a positively charged
oxygen and the rings electron configuration will shift. The double bond between C1 and C2, or C1 and C6 (they're the same)
will move up to the nitrogen and force the oxygens on the nitro group to become more negative resulting in a net -2 charge (-
1 for each oxygen). This must be the reason for the preferential reduction of the 2 position.
What I can't figure out off the top of my head here (I'm at work) is what would happen after this in the reducing solution. The
oxygen is going to be HIGHLY nucleophilic at this point and is just jumpin to oxidize something...
The reducing solution in this case is Na2S in H2O. This mechanism doesn't seem to leave much room for intermediate
structures and is most likely just involving a transition state. A single step here makes me think that NaHS or some other
hydrogen containing reducer would be the main reducing agent. I don't know how this would work here...anyone else care to
take it from here? I'll keep thinkin about this as it is one of my ultimate goals to learn every nook and cranny of every
reaction I ever accomplish.
Edit: I'm guessing that the formation of hydrogen containing reducing agents depends on an equillibrium reaction between
water and the Na2S. This is demonstrated in part by using NaHCO3 in the reducing solution to increase the amount of NaHS in
the solution, and getting correspondingly higher yields...I can't remember the equillibrium right now.
[ February 18, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Al Koholic ]

Al Koholic, thanks for the help! that seems to be a very credible explaination (but the i would say that because i don't know
that much about chemistry yet :) )

Hey no problem man! It's all about electron pushing my friend....
If you liked that explaination (which wasn't entirely complete as there are also inductive effects taking place) I can scan a few
pages from my organic chem book for you if you want. They are very helpful pages for thinking about things like this. If you
want 'em, I can e-mail em! :-)
Al
Boob Raider March 2nd, 2003, 11:56 AM

Son of a Bitch....... I tried reducing Na-Picrate the 6th time and all I get is a reddish orangish brown solution. As soon as I add
HCl or H2SO4 to it ..... it turns into what looks like a suspension of Sulfur. This material seems to be lighter than dil. H2SO4
(50%) as a band is formed when the red/brown soln is acidified slowly. This can't be just Sulfur as the amount of ppt I get is
way more than the amount of S used to make the Na2S. Also the color of the ppt does not revert back to red/brown no matter
how much base I add. Here are my observations ... I was going to conclude that maybe the 4 or 6 nitro is being reduced
instead of the 2, but it should revert back to red brown on the addition of NaOH.
will March 10th, 2004, 02:41 PM

Son of a Bitch....... I tried reducing Na-Picrate the 6th time and all I get is a reddish orangish brown solution. As soon as I add
HCl or H2SO4 to it ..... it turns into what looks like a suspension of Sulfur. This material seems to be lighter than dil. H2SO4
(50%) as a band is formed when the red/brown soln is acidified slowly. This can't be just Sulfur as the amount of ppt I get is
way more than the amount of S used to make the Na2S. Also the color of the ppt does not revert back to red/brown no matter
how much base I add. Here are my observations ... I was going to conclude that maybe the 4 or 6 nitro is being reduced
instead of the 2, but it should revert back to red brown on the addition of NaOH.
I to have had troble trying to make DDNP i folowed a method that was downloaded for wantsomfets kangroo corner called
Improvised primary explosive i filliter a redde brown solid that when it came in contacte with flame i smoldered with green
smoke and did not show any propities of a primary explosive
----------------------
At first I thought warning you would suffice but obviously all help comes too late. Banned.
Rhadon
K9 August 31st, 2004, 08:22 PM

I've just finished the addition of KNO2 to the solution of picramic acid and H2SO4. It fizzed and bubbled lightly which I assume
is the reaction happening. My question is, how long do I leave it for before I filter. I've seen numbers from 10 minutes to 24
hours. It still fizzes very lightly when I stir it, but it's only been 15 minutes since the addition. What would be the best amount
of time to leave it?
EDIT:
Well the solution was completely clear in an hour, and the precipitate settled to the bottom so I filtered it.
BLASTER January 8th, 2005, 11:29 AM

Finally I made successful synthesis of usable free-flowing form of dinol from picric acid via sodium picramate. Below are some
pictures. In case of general interest, I translate (I'll try ;-) ) this method and release to public. It's based on preparation
originally developed by D. Smolenski a J. Plucinski and also published in Urbanki book vol.3.
This is unusable amorphous form of dinol, resulting from inadequate reaction temperature and speed of HCl addition. It has
gravimetric density only 0.27g/cm3
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/dinol_amorfni.jpg
Amorphous powder (300mg) handpressed into aluminium cap to density 0.65 and ignited with bickford fuse on 0.7mm Al
sheet
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/dinol_300mg_dutinka1.jpg
This is finally right form of dinol (almost unbelievable difference). Gravimetric density 0.63g/cm3 (should be possible to reach
0.82 according to literature). Its really nice and easily pouring into cap ;-)
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/dinol_sypny.jpg
And 300mg of this form easily handpressed into aluminium cap to density 0.92g/cm3 laid on Al sheet gives really better result
:p
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/dinol_300mg_dutinka2.jpg
And little of amorphous form put into flame create nice puff
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/zazeh_dinolu.jpg
So I must say dinol is very promising for me, now easily prepared from sodium picramate. It has some very valuable
properties for amateur.

if case of general interest, I translate (try ;-) ) this method and release to public. It's based on preparation originally
developed by D. Smolenski a J. Plucinski and also published in Urbanki book vol.3
Is a bear catholic? Does the pope shit in the woods?! Yes, please do!

Not meaning to post whore or bug you, Blaster... But please? please? pretty, pretty please??? I suspect from the disparaging
comments on DDNP from some that they've not achieved the granular, denser form. I'd certainly like to see the process fully
described!
K9 January 17th, 2005, 10:13 PM

The first pic is the stuff I got. So what needs to be done in regards to the temperature? Just keep it lower?
And I too would be extremely interested in the procedure. So please post it :)

Time once again for my weekly request for a full synthesis description from Blaster! Would it help if I started offering first
borns, pounds of flesh & etc.?
Rosco Bodine January 28th, 2005, 08:46 PM

Relevant excerpt from Urbanski 3 , page 203 :
The effect of conditions of preparation have been thoroughly examined by Smolenski

and Plucinski . They found that at a diazotization temperature as recommended by
Clark , i.e. 15 C , the product pours with difficulty . Conversely , diazotization at a
higher temperature ( 25 - 45 C ) results in formation of a product with a density of
about 0.82 .
Smolenski and Plucinski , during a break from their usual work of turning the ladder
for Pollockski the overhead light bulb changer , prepared dinitrodiazophenol in the
form of free flowing crystals by applying the following reaction conditions :
A solution of 320 g of sodium nitrite in 2 l. of water is added to a suspension of

1000 g of the sodium salt of picramic acid in 8 l. of water . Next , 6 l. of 5.5% HCl
is added dropwise for 2 hr. , stirring continuously . The initial temperature of 20 C
rises to 25 C . Completion of the reaction is determined by means of starch-iodide
paper . The product is filtered off , washed with cold water and dried at 35 - 40 C .
Its yield amounts to 80 % of the theoretical .

Thanks! That's a good start...
K9 January 29th, 2005, 07:49 PM

Well I'll have to try this way out next time. Sadly that probably won't happen till the summer, but thank you for the post.
BLASTER January 30th, 2005, 10:00 AM

Here are, proven and little corrected laboratory preparations of picramate and dinol. I apologise for my primitive expressions,
but english language isn't my cup of tea ;)
Preparation of sodium picramate from picric acid
Reagens used in summary:

103g picric acid
825ml distilled H2O
180g Na2S.9H2O
7,5g of 35% solution of NaOH
- In 2l beaker containing 450ml of distilled water dissolve 7.5g of picric acid and add 7.5g of 35% NaOH solution. Put beaker
into wider low profile jar for later cold water addition.
- Warm up solution to 45-50C and while stirring intensively add gradually sodium sulfide (nonahydrate) solution containing
30g of crystalline Na2S.9H2O in 75ml of water. It's good idea to use warm water when dissolwing sulfide, because dissolving it
in water cause significant temperaure drop and sulfide then won't easily dissolve.
- Afterwards while stirring intensively add into solution 95.5g of picric acid in small portions, together with evenly added
(dropwise, use dropping funnel) second solution of sodium sulfide containing 150g Na2S.9H2O in 300ml H2O. Intensive
stirring is necessary, because suspension of fine crystals quickly settle at the bottom of beaker.
- Addition of sodium sulfide and picric acid must end up in the same time.
Temperature of reaction mixture rise in time of reagents addition and must not rise over 65C. Temperature is held on
required level externally with cold water. Usually when about one half of reagents is added, 0.5l of cold water poured into wide
jar is enough to held temperature for rest of reaction time (held temperature at 55C all the time).
- When reagens addition is finished, held reaction mixture for next 10 minutes. Then filter out crystalline sodium picramate,
wash on filter with 75ml of 10% NaCl solution and finally 20ml of cold water. After drying you should have about 80g (80% of
theorethical yield) of finely crystalline sodium picramate with dark brownish-red colour. Beware of whirl picramate dust, it's very
intensive colouring agent.
sodium picramate
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/pikramat.jpg
Preparation of dinitrodiazophenol from sodium picramate
Reagens used in summary:

25g sodium picramate
250ml of distilled H2O
8g NaNO2 (sodium nitrite)
150ml of 5.5% HCl
- Into 600ml beaker containing 200ml of distilled water add 25g of sodium picramate. Stirr intensively to mix it into
homogenous suspension. Put reaction beaker into wider low profile jar.
- Then add while stirring solution of 8g sodium nitrite in 50ml of water.
- Afterwards 150ml of 5.5% hydrochloric acid solution is added dropwise (1 drop every 4 seconds) while continuously stirring.
Addition of HCl solution must took 2 hours, while temperature of the solution must be held constantly at 25-30C by addition
of hot water into wide jar (or little of cold water if temperature rising too much). Reaction heat itself isn't capable to held
temperature at desired level.
- After whole volume of acid solution is added, reaction mixture must have pH of 3 (blue congo red paper) and turn blue
iodide-starch paper, because of free HNO2 excess (in case we haven't iodide-starch paper, we can smell it over beaker)
- Then after decantation and filtration, we can dry prepared dinol in warm dark place on filtration paper. After drying we should
have about 20g of final product (84%).
Note: Dropping funnel is really necessary for HCl addition, which must be done continuosly and evenly for two hours, also with
reaction temperature held on desired level and continuous stirring. These three conditions are necessary for obtaining high
density free flowing product.
DDNP
http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/files/dinol_sypny.jpg
Ref.:
W. P. Cetner - Preparatyka materialow wybuchovych
T. Urbanski - chemistry and Technology of Explosives vol. 3
K9 January 30th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Thank you! :) That is greatly appreciated. So it's really a huge matter of the addition time and temperature of the HCl. When
I get to to do this next I'll make a detailed write-up of how it goes for me.

Years ago I did some experimentation with DDNP but abandoned the
experiments primarily because of the difficulty of obtaining a useful density
of crystalline product directly from the diazotization reaction . Seeing now
that perhaps that difficulty has been solved is an interesting development .
While doing those old experiments , another aspect of the process for DDNP
concerning which I did a few experiments , was the synthesis of the
sodium picramate . While I never did perfect the synthesis to a point
where it was "optimized" , I did get what appeared to be good yields
by the following method :
Sodium Picramate from Picric Acid , Sodium Hydroxide , and Sulfur
A good quality of deep red crystalline sodium picramate in good yields is possible via
the sodium polysulfide reduction of sodium picrate . Several times I have repeated the
experiments and found that slight adjustments in reaction conditions can improve the results ,
so I have not yet determined what conditions are optimum . Please feel free to tweak the
general process , if you want to do the work . The polysulfide reduction is quite similar
to the synthesis described in your library . The problem that I have seen in the online
descriptions of the polysulfide reduction , is a lack of detail about the correct method
of preparation for the sodium polysulfide reagent . A thorough , intimate mixing of the
correct proportions of NaOH and sulfur , being first thoroughly mixed as DRY ingredients ,
which absorb moisture from the air very gradually , darken in color , and initiate a spontaneous
highly exothermic reaction while being stirred is the required approach for producing a good
polysulfide reagent . If atmospheric moisture is low , a trigger mister can be used to
get things going . The idea is to get the reaction going from a stirred dry powder which
becomes crumbly as it warms and darkens and then a drop or two of water is added , the mixture
stirred very well and a few more drops of water added , whereupon the reaction then proceeds
on its own to form the polysulfide very quickly as a dark red but transparent liquid which looks
bright yellow in thin layers . The stoichiometry for reactions involving polysulfides is not fully
known . The goal is to get a good reduction without a great precipitation of elemental sulfur
as a contaminant . My own theory is that if the alkalinity is just right , the higher polysulfide
which is decomposed in the reduction can be converted to a lower polysulfide and remain
in solution , instead of precipitating free sulfur . The polysulfide may possibly even reform
from its fragments after acting as an unstable intermediate compound in the reduction . I am
uncertain that the actual mechanism for the reaction involving polysulfide is even known ,
beyond the knowing that it just works somehow.
The following is from my *old* lab notes , with commentary ideas included .
Experimental :
On a hotplate stirrer is placed an 800ml beaker and with stirring , 22.9 grams , ( .1 mole ) picric acid
is dissolved in 400ml boiling water . Heating is stopped . To the stirred still hot solution is added
a solution of 4.2grams NaOH ( .105 moles ) in 25ml water .
comment : easy solution was noted so less water may be useful in subsequent syntheses .
While the slightly alkaline sodium picrate solution is cooling , a Sodium Polysulfide reagent
is prepared as follows :
NOTE : All of the following procedures should be done with good ventilation , toxic gas is produced .
Into a 100ml beaker is placed 13 grams NaOH fine prills and 10.1 grams powdered sulfur
( flowers of sulfur USP ) Using a glass stirring rod the granular materials were manually mixed dry
as thoroughly as posssible , and as the stirring was continued the mixture began to take up moisture
from the air and darken in color slightly , and the physical texture changed as the mixture became stiffer
and more difficult to stir . The particles become adherent to each other and the mixture begins to warm .
A couple of drops of water are fed from an eyedropper onto the stirring rod and stirred into the mixture ,
then two drops more , and stirring is assertively done between dropwise additions to blend the very gradually
increasing moisture into the reactants .The induction of a highly exothermic reaction occurs concurrently
with the slight dampening of the mixture which may need to be stirred yet a little more
if any "dry lumping" is observed . The pasty mixture gets really hot and darkens quite rapidly ,
with an evolution of intense "sulfur fumes" from the melting and reacting sulfur . Hold the beaker
by the upper rim where it is cool and do not get burned by touching the walls of the beaker near
the reaction mixture . The addition of water two or three drops only , in each addition may be continued
portionwise , with stirring between these small additions , in order to maintain the heat by reaction
and heat of dilution , until a dark red transparent solution results . The hot reaction mixture should
become a thin and mobile enough liquid that further mixing and dilution can be done by manually swirling
the beaker lightly .
Once the pasty mixture has cleared to a hot solution ( melt would probably be more accurate description ) ,
then gradual additions of water in increasing amounts should be made by the eyedropperfull until the volume
of the resulting solution is about 40ml volume . If a dark red melt clear of solids fails to form completely
on its own heat of reaction , at this point DO NOT add a lot more water and "boil" or a partly crystallized
failed to complete reaction mixture will probably result . If 1 or 2 ml of added water is insufficient to "kick"
the reaction by heat of dilution , then supplemental heat will be required to drive the reaction to completion ,
before further dilution to a volume of 40 ml . This dilution should be sufficient to prevent the reagent from
crystallizing upon cooling . Keep the polysulfide reagent from contact with the air after it is prepared .
Air may degrade and cause precipitation of elemental sulfur from the polysulfide reagent if it is left standing
uncovered . The prepared reagent is put into a separatory funnel and supported over the still warm
sodium picrate solution prepared earlier . A piece of plastic wrap is secured over the top of the beaker with
a rubber band and the plastic wrap is puntured in the center to admit the tip of the separatory funnel .
This is done to exclude air from circulating freely around the surface of the solution in the beaker during
the addition of the polysulfide solution . A seal is not needed here , a loose covering is sufficient . To the
stirred sodium picrate solution at 44 degrees centigrade , was added the sodium polysulfide at a rate of
one drop per second to one drop per two seconds , with stirring continued for one hour . The mixture
was then covered to the complete exclusion of air , and allowed to stand in the cold overnight , chilled to
5 degrees centigrade , filtered and the crystals of sodium picramate and the filter paper and filter cake
were further dried by placing on a stack of paper blotters . The crystals were dark red prismatic and
very fine granulation , and were used without further purification for the diazotation reaction .
Recrystallization from boiling water may be done to obtain the sodium picramate
in higher purity if desired .
Perhaps one of the more interesting things about DDNP is its formation of a 50/50 eutectic ( density 1.75 )
with picric acid , which will melt below 100 degrees centigrade . See US1428011 .
Another potential use is the coprecipitation of DDNP with nitrated polyhydric alcohols , which does result
in granular form materials that can function as decent intitiators . See GB568109
Disadvantages with DDNP are its light sensitivity and its difficulty to produce in a decent crystalline
form having good density .
K9 February 6th, 2005, 10:02 AM

One thing I don't understand. What would be the problem with boiling the NaOH and sulfur together? That is what I did and I
got a dark red solution with no precipitate. The final product from the reaction was the brown amorphous DDNP. I assumed
that was just from the second part of the procedure having to do with acid addition and temperature.

It has been years since I experimented with the reaction and my notes
did not include this explanation , but IIRC ......
Boiling will expose the polysulfide solution to extensive oxidation

from exposure to the air and result in a lower activity polysulfide containing
more thiosulfate . Boiled mixtures will be more difficult to make and their
composition and performance will be unpredictable . Try the method I
have suggested and compare the yields against the yields from the
polysulfide reagent obtained by boiling .
Another factor I seem to recall is that the reaction producing the polysulfide
requires a lot of heat , and the temperature required cannot be achieved
except in very concentrated solution , which is initially a melt whose melting
point is lowered by moisture , more than it is a solution . The polysulfide
actually forms as a "solid solution" which is a melt then diluted . Too much
water too quickly lowers the temperature before the reaction completes ,
and I do believe a different polysulfide is formed in the more aqueous reaction .
The exotherm is high from the reaction of the dampened solids which melt together
nicely from their own heat of reaction , a reaction which completes
very quickly in a couple of minutes . If water is added too quickly in too
great a quantity it actually quenches the reaction and can even cause the
mixture to set up solid instead of forming a concentrated solution of polysulfide .
K9 February 6th, 2005, 08:39 PM

Alright, thank you for that. When I get around to testing, whch won't be until the summer, I shall try this out. Thank you
again.
Idiot April 16th, 2005, 06:01 AM

BLASTER, How did you granulated your DDNP ? Or it's mix with MHN or other nitrated sugar ? Can you post how you did it ? I
can't get my DDNP to more than 1.1g/cc hand-pressed. I tried to granulate it with dextrin ,but attempt failed. Only one good
point in that granulation with dextrin that is easy to pour it. So please post your "method"


BLASTER January 16th, 2007, 04:19 PM

BLASTER, How did you granulated your DDNP ? Or it's mix with MHN or other nitrated sugar ?
What you can see on picture is pure product after filtration. The key to obtain this granular product was already described -
"Afterwards 150ml of 5.5% hydrochloric acid solution is added dropwise (1 drop every 4 seconds) while continuously stirring.
Addition of HCl solution must took 2 hours, while temperature of the solution must be held constantly at 25-30C"
This procedure must be exactly followed!
Literature says, that higher temperature reaction has positive influence on product density and can be rised up to 40C, but I
didn't tested yet preparation at that higher temperature.
Also after long term (two years) storage uder water, the product from first batch has no signs of any degradation and still
works like freshly prepared product.
al93535 October 14th, 2008, 09:15 PM

Has anyone tried Blasters synthesis above to make DDNP? It looks like it might be a good one to try. I have tried the one
from KIPE several times without success.
I will try it regardless but wondering if anyone has any additional information about it. I now have commercial sodium sulfide,
and sodium nitrite so that should help if that was my problem before.
Also since NaOH is soluble in in water 111 grams to 100 ml water, a 35% solution would be 38.85 grams in 100 ml water
correct?
Thanks...

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > anode materials
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da man January 5th, 2002, 01:20 AM

I have been making potassium chlorate from electrolysing a solution of sodium chloride followed by double decomposition with potassium chloride. It has been quite succesful
though the graphite anodes that i use erode very quickly and have to filter the solution during operation. I know that lead dioxide anodes can be used but they are poisonous
and so are the chemicals needed for preparing it, so i would greatly appreciate it if someone could tell me another alternative for lead dioxide.
zaibatsu January 5th, 2002, 01:36 AM

I don't think this is the right section, because your question relates to the anode used, rather than the chlorate itself. However, here is a page you should see, its should be of
great use < a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/chlorate_EN.html" target= "_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/~w fvisser/EN/chlorate_EN.html</a>

This is the appropriate section to ask since it does DIRECTLY relate to the production of chlorate.
I've never made it electrolytically so I can't comment on anode construction, but it w ould be helpful to do a w ebsearch if you haven't already using "chlorate AND anode" to start
with. Get more specific as details emerge.
vulture January 5th, 2002, 04:53 AM

i tried making chlorates with graphite anodes and a 12v battery and i also found that the electrodes erode very quickly. I think one of them can be changed for a stainless steel
electrode ( you'll have to check that on w outer vissers page) but the other electrode has to be one w ith a high oxygen overpotential or one that doesn't gets attacked easily, for
example platinum or titanium

yes, i used graphite for the anode, and stainless steal for the cathode, the cathode doesn't erode, but the anode is eroded by evolving oxygen.

Car batteries have lead dioxide electrodes on one polarity, don't they?
Might be worth checking out.

I wonder if you could create a lead dioxide layer on lead by heating it with a torch or something for several minutes?
Cause only the parts that come into contact with the solution have to have a oxygen overpotential.
Also, a pure lead dioxide electrode will have poor conductivity and crack easily.
rikkitikkitavi January 6th, 2002, 01:52 PM

sorry mate, but when lead is heated in air only
litharge ,PbO is formed.
the anode in a fully charge lead battery is

made out of lead covered with lead dioxide! :)
The cathode is made of lead.

when discharged they both turn into PbSO4.
thus , slaughtering a small motorcycle battery

could give you a nice anode. or , more likely several (each cell has 2 V)
/rickard
Lagen January 6th, 2002, 02:28 PM

If you have access to some nitric acid you can try these methods: Make lead nitrate and then oxidize it with potassium persulphate (hmm... PCB etchant!) or clorox
(hypochlorite) bleach. You must thoroughly wash out the byproducts as they would make the anode useless. And if you can get some red lead (minium, in paint shops), you
can try this reaction with w arm HNO3:
Pb3O4 + 4 HNO3 ---> PbO2 + 2 H2O + 2 Pb(NO3)2
Either way, be careful, as the lead nitrate is a hell of a poison, and it absorbs through the skin easily.

How about using an iron electrode with MnO2 substrate?
Should be very similar to PbO2.
However, this might cause the formation of a little bit of manganate or permanganate no?

Lead nitrate oxidation can also be done electrolytically - get two graphite electrodes, put them in a soln. of Pb(NO3)2, and run DC current across them. PbO2 w ill be deposited
on one of the electrodes. Apparently it's a good idea to add some soap to the electrolyte, it stops bubbles sticking the the graphite and fucking things up.

hmmmm, i've used graphite anodes before and they haven't eroded much at all....
what graphite did you use. i know theres only one sort but w as it pencil lead, what grade pencil, etc?
i used an 8B artists graphite stick....its about 8mm thick :D
also i beleive platinum can be used but that would be VERY expensive.
megalomania March 16th, 2002, 08:29 PM

Every electrode will erode a little, just hope it dosn't react. That is why carbon and platinum are the best. I use carbon electrodes in my electrolysis set ups because it is cheap
and easy to get. Mine do degrade somew hat slow ly leaving a powerdy residue in solution. I use carbon welding electrodes, $1 each. They are about 1 foot long (31 cm) and 1
cm diameter w ith copper coating at the tip (easy to scrape off). Thats a lot of carbon for the price. Mine degrade about 1 cm per week of 24-7 operation with a 6 v battery
charger. I bought mine from a welding supply store (Home Depot or any major hardw are store should have something similar).
firebreether April 14th, 2002, 11:15 AM

When i just tried it, with pencil lead:-P i really need to go up to get some bigger electrodes like mega said. My problem is that after about 10 hours there is salt buildup on the
electrode surface that is not submerged, and on the connections, which one of them has turned green. I supposed this is from the copper oxidizing. On several chlorate cell
pages they say that this happens because the salts will get conducted through the electrodes because graphite is prous. They say to impregnate the electrodes with linseed oil to
stop this. My question is, wtf is linseed oil? I have never heard of this or seen it before. Can anyone point me in the right direction to finding what it is/maybe where to get it?
RTC April 14th, 2002, 01:34 PM

I've seen Linseed oil as a w ood treatment, gives it a kind of varnish effect of some sort. So check out a paint store.

I think there is a difference between graphite and carbon electrodes. The ones used for welding purposes look more like carbon. They're easy to find and cheap. I don't know
where to find graphite rods or which one would be better.
I was thinking of making a lead dioxide anode by taking it out of a car battery and compressing it into a plastic pipe and then drilling many small holes in the pipe. Then insert a
stainless steel wire in the top of it for a conductor.
firebreether April 14th, 2002, 11:27 PM

Thanks ill check out the paint shop. Graphite is just a different form of carbon (like diamond, sort of, not really) thats more dense so i guess it should be better in terms of
erosion rate and the allow able current density. I think the term is an allotropic form of the element carbon. But both graphite and carbon can be porous so both could benefit
from this treatment i think. Oh, but obviously they are both still inert which is why they are a good choice:)
[ April 14, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: firebreether ]
Pots-O-Potash January 30th, 2007, 09:09 PM

Battery carbons (from a dry cell 6v latern battery or D cell) work fine but degrade badly if the solution gets to warm (over 50* C) and also seems to w ear more at 12v than at
6v.
I know platinum w orks as an anode but has anione heard of using silver or gold as one. or w ould they corrode or be incompatable w ith chlorates like copper is?
++ ++++
You picked a 5 year old thread as your first post? :rolleyes: NBK
Bacon46 February 22nd, 2007, 08:35 PM

I have been successful using graphite anodes treated with boiled linseed oil. I have found that filtering the electrolyte through fiberglass building insulation does an excellent job
of removing the graphite.
I used a 5 gallon bucket and a plastic colander large enough so that the handles supported it by rested on top of the bucket. I lined the colander with a white cotton cloth (Tee
shirt in this case) and packed it full of fiberglass building insulation. The electrolyte flows though the filter quickly and comes out surprisingly clean in one pass.
I buy my graphite at a salvage yard. Most of the pieces are 6 diameter rods between one and two feet long. I picked up a couple of 18 x 6 diameter pieces for $5.00. You
can get a lot of anodes out of one piece that size. I cut an 1 x 1 x 18 bar out of one of them for use in a 4 gallon chlorate cell.
I let the cell run 28 days. It produced 4 pounds of KClO3. Not spectacular, but not bad.

Lead Peroxide is very resistive. I have only had success gluing (wear gloves!), or, using acetone to cement it to PVC or Plexiglas rods. The tube is rolled in the PbO2. Epoxy can
also be used to glue it. Then, to make it conduct at all, I needed to tightly wind about 1/2-1" of clean copper wire to the top. This, and both ends of the tube, must be sealed
from the solution, and it still exhibits high resistance and gets hot, and may melt the plastic . It is better to epoxy the PbO2 over a SS tube, cap the ends, and try the copper
wire, or, a bright brass hose clamp on it. I still needed about 50 volts D.C. to force 2 amps through a saturated solution of KCl.

Bacon46;
I sent my reply a bit prematurely--PbO2 seems lame compared to graphite. I have tried Carbon rods and Pb anodes, with limited success (very dirty!) It seems Graphite is the
Holy Grail, next to Pt or Iridium or Titanium (very expensive.) My problem is scrapyards are hostile around here, and I also never saw any Graphite there. Would you be w illing
to sell some? (At a 100% or more profit, of course, to you) ?
Bert July 19th, 2007, 09:44 AM

Try a w elding supply house.
stupid939 July 19th, 2007, 05:05 PM

What about Tantalum? It is very resistant to corrosion and acids (even aqua regia). I could not find anything about how rare it is, but I think it is more rare (and possibly more
expensive) than titanium.
http://en.w ikipedia.org/w iki/Tantalum
rring July 23rd, 2007, 11:27 PM

For what its worth:
I have had great success using about a 3 square inch arrow head shaped piece of Magnetite (Fe3O4). It doesn't erode from the oxygen as it is already an oxide. I got my piece
literally from an old mine shaft but I am sure it can be obtained from a comercial source
I have seen on the web, some descriptions of sintered iron oxide powder elctrodes which had poor results. I am not sure why? My piece of magnetite is an actual chip from a
large rock of ore. I just clip an alligator clip to one edge and suspend it in a solution of KCl. The solution sits in a small stainless steel bow l - which of course is the cathode. With
this setup, the soultion stays so clean that I can just filter the precipitate and be done with it.
Perhaps you could burn some very fine steel w ool and tw ist it into an iron oxide "rope" and use that as an anode.
prometheus unleashed August 5th, 2007, 06:17 PM

I would say that platinum would be the best anode out there.
However it does cost a lot of money for a platnium anode.
Any metal with a high electronegativity (or a low reactivity) w ould be the best anode because low reactive metals bond less readily with oxide or cloride ions.
Metal oxide anodes w ork great because they are already bonded. If silverware is still made out of silver, you could make a anode out of a fork or spoon. Copper piping is
another option but it w ill corrode over time.
prometheus unleashed September 19th, 2007, 10:23 PM

I experimented w ith this today and I found out it actually works.
If you electrolyze an aluminum rod in water, eventually an aluminum oxide layer will form on the outside of the bar and won't corrode anymore with oxygen or chlorine like in a
chlorate cell.
The aluminum oxide layer is not porous and w ill stick to the aluminum rod providing a decent anode.
You can get aluminum rods at a hardware store, Home Depot, or Menards.
I am about to build a chlorate cell with this anode.
I will post again once I perform the first run.
ChippedHammer September 20th, 2007, 07:20 AM

If you want to make chlorate on the cheap use EDM graphite, its the most dense form of graphite you can buy (check ebay).
If you want to make perchlorate you really only have 2 options:
1. Platinum
2. Lead dioxide
Platinum is expensive but will last forever, do not buy anything plated as it w ill wear away very quickly. Try and buy some w ire as that is suitable for a small home cell.
Lead dioxide is the holy grail but w ithout the proper precursors its next to impossible to make and impossible to buy (I've tried). A proper made GSDL (Graphite substrate lead
dioxide anode) will work w ell providing its made well and has a thick coat with no holes or the solution will destroy it very quickly. TSLD (titanium substrate lead dioxide) is the
best anode to make. It involves coating a piece of titanium w ith tin oxide and then the lead dioxide.
polar bond December 10th, 2007, 10:28 PM

The thread starter mentioned making chlorate only. Graphite seems to work well if you run it about 6 volts. you do not need any more than 6 volts for most electrochemical
reactions, and while allowing more current to be passed through the solution, more salt in the solution would accomplish the same goal w ithout the excessive anode wear.
Other options, as people have stated, include MnO2 (beta form tends to be the best), lead dioxide, or just about any other CONDUCTIVE oxide (besides silver oxide)
I'm not sure if silver iodide is conductive or not, or silver iodate, but if it was, this would be a suitable anode for chlorate production, as silver actually has a greater affinity for
iodine/iodate than chlorine does, as w ell as being insoluble.
The idea with aluminum anodes w ill NOT w ork, aluminum oxide is a rather good electrical insulator. It w ill not conduct any e- into solution.
Frunk December 11th, 2007, 06:50 PM

I experimented w ith this today and I found out it actually works.
If you electrolyze an aluminum rod in water, eventually an aluminum oxide layer will form on the outside of the bar and won't corrode anymore with oxygen or chlorine like in a
chlorate cell.
The aluminum oxide layer is not porous and w ill stick to the aluminum rod providing a decent anode.
You can get aluminum rods at a hardware store, Home Depot, or Menards.
I am about to build a chlorate cell with this anode.
I will post again once I perform the first run.
You do realize that aluminium oxide doesn't conduct electricity?
Yafmot February 15th, 2008, 06:13 PM

I'm running low on KClO3, and a cell looks like a great w ay to get it on the cheap. As far as anodes go, Chipped Hammer mentioned that Platinum plated graphite should be
avoided. With ELECTROPLATED graphite, he may be right since, as it has been run down to me by the owner of a plating shop, you can't just put a straight layer of Pt directly
onto a graphite substrate. You've got to put down Lead, then Copper, THEN the Platinum which, for ornamental purposes, is quite thin, maybe .0002 in.
With Chemical Vapor Deposition, the Pt can go directly onto the graphite w ith no intermediary. I presume we're talking about high density, monolithic graphite here. We used it
as a sacrificial mandrel for making one piece, hypergolic rocket motors out of pure Rhenium. We'd deposit about 50 mils of Re onto the shape, and then use a slightly Oxidizing
flame to cook the carbon off, leaving a finished part. It also w orked great for cannon barrel bore liners which could stand up to the new , Nitramine-based propellants that w ere
shooting out the conventional barrels in about 75 rounds; not acceptable performance in an automatic weapon. One went 20,000 rounds with no measurable wear. The people
at ARDEC thought we were GOD!
Going one better, I think CVD-ing Pt group metals onto, say, Silicon Carbide w ould result in an electrode that wouldn't contaminate the electrolyte as the metal wore through.
When enough wore off that the anode would stop working, you could just send it back for reapplication of the good stuff.
Back about 20 years ago, there w as only one company in the world that could CVD Platinum Group Metals. I know, because I w orked for 'em. I still have a couple of friends
there, so I think I'll just see if they can coat some of each for me, Monolithic Graphite, solid SiC and, for enhanced surface area, maybe some open-cell SiC foam.
I designed catalytic convertors using the latter, and with a porosity of about 45 pores per inch, you get about 40 sq. cm per CC. So, given the w attages for your average run, it
would take quite a while to "burn off" enough of the metal to effect the efficiency of the anode. We're only talking about a couple of bucks worth of Pt per anode.
I'll keep you all apprised of any progress.
ChippedHammer February 15th, 2008, 09:13 PM

I don't remember saying anything about plating platinum onto graphite (why on earth w ould you want to do that anyway?). People electroplate platinum onto titanium.
Anyway, I recently purchased a commercial chlorate MMO anode which came from these folks in India (http://w ww.cpanode.com/). Its been running in a large 7L KCl cell for
about 3 weeks now and there is about tw o inches of KClO3 on the bottom w hich is nice. The anode looks like it did when I got it - and so it should, its rated for 20 years in
brine at up to 600 A/m2.
wymanthescienceman February 17th, 2008, 03:26 AM

ChippedHammer - How big and what substrate is your anode, and w hat did it run you? If this company will sell single anodes to individuals then I may have to give them a
ring...
Yafmot March 25th, 2008, 04:13 AM

I don't know w hat I was thinking on that last thread. You don'r necessarily have to CVD the Pt onto the SiC foam. A repeated dip, flash & cook w ith a PtCl solution in water, or
whatever other solvent w ill work with it, is orders of magnitude cheaper. In one afternoon, you could easily apply 200 Angstroms to a chunk of it (this being the standard
thickness that will guarantee complete coverage.
And you don't want Ti for a substrate, since Chlorides will eat it right up when you toss in acids and electricity. One little scratch in the coating w ill allow the Ti to just disappear,
and it happens fairly quickly. Niobium is the way to go here, and it's only marginally more expensive.
Anomet Products (just Google 'em) has some Platinized Nb mesh for $5.00 per sq. in. That will give you 2x10" strip that will run you $100 for an anode that should last damn
near forever. And if the Pt does w ear out, just send it back to be recoated for a fraction of the cost of a new one.
I'm working on a continuous process apparratus w here you put in the feedstocks in one end, and get product out the other. I can't talk much about it except to say that almost
everything is automated. Temperature, PH, and other parameters are all continuously monitored, so the electrolyte can be kept at optimum conditions. More than this I cannot
say.
For my ow n amusement, I managed to scrounge a 6x10" platinized piece of Nb expanded mesh, which should keep me in more oxidizer than I can even use for the forseeable
future. But I do have a couple of questions...
One has to do with the power supply. I've heard of everything from model train transformers to computer supplies to car batteries, but what I w ant is CONTROL. Not just to find
the optimum voltage/current, but to maintain it or, perhaps, to alter it through PH/temperature alarms as the condition of the electrolyte changes.
The other thing that's bugging me is how to physically connect the grid to the lead. I've thought of things ranging from a Platinum Group Metal conductor bar to just hanging it
with an alligator clip, keeping that end up & out of the soup, Theres one company that makes solders in all kinds of alloys and proportions, with the catalog heavy on Indium
alloys. One of these might hold up as a built-up conductor bar, as well as for soldering and tinning the leads. As long as the only thing that will w ork isn't 80% Au or some other
money eating stuff that's sold by the gram.
One more little item. I can find formulas and procedures for these things all day, but I'm hoping someone who has tried a number w ill be able to steer me toward the one that
worked best for them. I don't want to spend a pile of time reinventing the square wheel.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Mix AP with...?
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Hercules June 28th, 2002, 03:44 PM

C a n I m ix AP with a liquid? Ive heard about acetone,how much goes into a AP/Acetone solution before it wont dissolve any
m ore and form a layer on the bottom ,and will the color just be white? Is there another liquid I can use instead of Acetone?
Thanx,
(sorry for m y bad english) <im g border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > oxygen/acetylene mixture
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NoltaiR January 8th, 2002, 12:14 AM

Its been a while since I last posted here because I screwed something up in my browser when trying to remove the pop-ups
that wouldn't allow me to log in correctly here. Anyways I have been using the elite/UK forum (and yes, I am from the USA.. I
just like the way those people think) and here was my latest posting there (note that when I post there I always have to think
in metric so if I have any figures in this post then they will be in metric units):
--------start of eliteforum post by noltair------
I read somewhere on either this forum or the main forum that someone had filled bags
with a oxygen/acetylene mixture then set it off with a firecracker.. I have been searching
for that topic for the past 25 minutes now and I have finally given up so I guess I will just
start a new topic.
Anyways I usually have a hard time getting a hold of any sort of explosive (I mean it's
been hell just trying to attain the materials to make a good rocket propellant!!); however,
my father is a welder by profession and he keeps large tanks of oxygen and acetylene in
our garage and are connected to a welding torch. The person who had the original posted
idea used it in bags.. I however went a step further by filling a medium sized
balloon--which slightly compresses the gas--with the common ratio of oxygen to acetylene
that I use when I weld (I don't know this ratio in number amounts).
I had never tried using an oxidized gas as an explosive before so I was uncertain what the
results would be. I did not want to tape a fuse on it as I have read in places before because
I just don't trust my improvised fuses on something that I have never tried before. So I set
the balloon (which was slightly smaller than a soccerball) on the corner of a sheet of large
newspaper and I lit the opposite corner on fire and stood back about 15 feet (like a moron
I did this all within my CLOSED garage because I didn't expect much of a result). It took
a few seconds for the fire to make its way to the balloon and then it detonated (and I do
believe this could be considered a detonation--could it possibly be considered a primary
explosive???). The report was awesome even though the balloon wasn't very large. The
metal walls of the garage shook and if there would have been a bigger balloon used then
the windows would never have made it. My ears were ringing for about a minute..
needless to say the balloon had been vaporized. Just then my dad (who had been in our
house which is about 15 meters from our garage) came running out asking what had gone
off--he has always been quite displeased with my liking of anything that explodes--to
which I replied was nothing more than a homemade firecracker...
It is time for me to get some sleep but I am going do some more experiments in the days
to come on the oxygen/acetylene mixture which I will post the results as they come up.
---end of eliteforum post by noltair---
If you have any suggestions on how I can make this formulation any better then please do so. Also I have made about 10
video tapes of an episode of 'scitrek' from discovery channel called 'explosive situations'--and yes, the commercials have
been taken out--. If you would like a copy then please notify me.. I expect no payment for this; HOWEVER, if you do *happen
to have* some leftover chemicals (specifically KNO3, KClO3, KClO4, german mesh Al) that you want to get rid of this would be
most greatly treasured!

Acetylene can be made by reacting calcium carbide (also called calcium dicarbide) with water.
(Thank you for stating an irrelevant fact. The question isn't "How to make acetylene" since he has cylinders of it already. The
question is how to make the explosion more powerful. NBK2000)
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
Arkangel January 8th, 2002, 06:47 AM

Used to fill upside down paper cups with this mixture on a bench and then set them off, even did a cardboard milk carton of
the stuff, which when it exploded, bruised my leg with a couple of bits of cardboard shrapnel.
I assume he gets the mixture right by setting a good flame on the oxyacetylene torch then knocking the flame out on a hard
surface. You then have a nozzle emitting an explosive gas. You can then either put it in some kind of rigid container like the
milk carton, or perhaps a balloon like he describes. If the mixture is set right, there would not be much you could do to
increase the power of explosion, other than increase the volume of gas being used. The 2 ways of doing this would be having
a bigger container, or having some kind of pressure vessel.
First is easy, the second much less so. I thought about having a small compressor (like the cigarette lighter operated jobs for
your car), doing it, and pushing the air into a car tyre or something like that. Imagine what would happen if you pumped your
average tyre up to 30psi with that mix. Ignition could be via a vehicle spark plug system on a tube connected to the tyre
valve. That part is easy, the bit that scares the shit out of me is the idea of some kind of reciprocating compressor that gets
warm anyway, has all sorts of organic lubricants in the pistons etc. The ideal way would be some form of non friction
compressor like a bellows, but how close to it you'd want to be, Hmmmmmm, not very if you ask me.
mrloud January 8th, 2002, 08:48 AM

Instead of putting it in a container under pressure you could just confine it and ignite it. We all know how much noise a Coke
bottle makes when bursting due to the pressure from subliming dry ice. Perhaps a PET bottle full of the gas would be worth
trying. In a field. Along way from people.
Speaking of dry ice: put some dry ice pellets in a baloon. Tie knot in baloon. Drop baloon into 2L Coke bottle. Fill bottle the
rest of the way up with oxy/acetylene. Wait for the dry ice to sublime and inflate the baloon thus compressing the oxy/
acetylene. Once you are satisfied that there is lots of pressure in the bottle, ignite it.
The only problem is, I really dont know how much explosive force the gasses generate when ignited. I know it is loud and will
pop a cardboard box; but the energy released could be due to a sudden and rapid rise in temperature causing a small but
fast expansion. Consequently, very little motive force will be imparted. Effective explosives work on the basis that a rapid
change in chemical structure results in a byproduct taking up vastly more volume than the original substance. Somehow I don't
think oxygen and actylene fit into this definition of an effective explosive.
I think some experimentation is in order. :)
Anthony January 8th, 2002, 08:53 AM

The easiest way to pressurise a container with oxygen/acetylene would be use the pressure from the bottles it is stored in. You
probably get 50-100psi at the torch?
Buy a surplus weather ballon, they're about 12ft in diameter...
IIRC acetylene/air mixtures can detonate, DV around 3000m/s.
Arkangel January 8th, 2002, 10:14 AM

Well that's true to a point, but you what concerned me was that to get the right mixture you generally have to set a flame and
knock it out, leaving the gas mix flowing. The Oxy is stored in the bottle at a much higher pressure than the acetylene, so if
you put the nozzle into a gradually pressurising container, the back pressure might affect both regulators differently, and
therefore the mixture. Seperate compression of the mix was a more accurate method, but I like the principle around the
subliming dry ice. I'm sure you could make some form of frictionless diaphragm compressor that would work reasonable well.
I'm not sure how you could covertly move around with a weather balloon, but if you got one it would be fun to put in an old car
with a delay fuse :D (cackles evilly)
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: Arkangel ]
NoltaiR January 8th, 2002, 01:13 PM

So far what I have gathered from your replies is that the only way to make the explosion bigger is to add more to use more at
one time (whether compressed or not). The compression idea sounds like it is better (which leads me to believe that my
mixture is a LE because it requires oxidation and there is no critical mass that it must reach... anyways that is my assumption)
although I do not know how I will be able to detonate it while still pressurized.
I made another charge this morning and used it within a mortar to shoot off a commercial pyrotechnics artillery shell (with the
lift charge removed) which it shot like a bullet--much better than the regular BP lifting charges.
I do not make a flame and then knock it out as some of you have assumed (I expect that doing this would damage the torch
tip); rather I have much experience with welding and I know how much to open the valves even without actually lighting it.
Current Experiments Underway:

*I am going to tie a rock (as a weight) to the balloon and put a small charge of BP (covered in tape) on the balloon and
connect a waterproof fuse to the charge. In hopes that I can pull this off without getting the charge wet, I am going to test this
'balloon charge' out underwater
*I am going to place a small ziplock bag of gasoline on the balloon and then light my balloon the 'customary way' (I put the
balloon on one end of a sheet of paper and light the opposite side)... I would like to see if the charge is powerful enough to
particleize (probably not a word) the gas and then set it off. If this works then I can sufficiently have a large incendiary/
explosive which would cost relatively nothing for me to construct.
*I don't know where I can get a weather balloon but I know a party place that sells 6 ft balloons for 'party favors'. I am not
sure how I am going to light this thing as I figure there is too much risk in doing my 'customary' ignition that I have described
before. If I could get calls from neighbors complaining about the small balloon (1 ft diameter) explosion.. I almost fear the
results of this supersized bomb.. If I somehow do attain a weather balloon, I will be sure to video record it or at least take
many pictures..
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]
Arkangel January 8th, 2002, 01:49 PM

Unfortunately, there's nothing magic about it, the only way to make this more powerful is by getting the mixture perfect(your
way or mine, doesn't really matter as long as you don't damage your kit, which as yet I haven't) and then by increasing the
amount of gas available for the explosion.
One way to initiate it whilst pressurised could be to use something like an HT spark, perhaps from a car sparkplug mounted in
the pressure vessel (easy enough if you have the welding and engineering skills) and a mini ignition system rigged up just for
the job.
Otherwise, if you have seen firetrace fire extinguishers, they are an extinguisher bottle filled with CO2 or whatever, and a long
thin plastic pressure hose (1mm internally) leading off. When a fire burns through the pipe the extinguishant is released at
that exact point, hopefully where the fire is. With a system like that, you just need to burn through the pipe somewhere and
you'll do the trick.
vulture January 9th, 2002, 10:45 AM

Acetylene can detonate in two ways:
-as FAE, vol% 1,5 -82% in air where an oxidation occurs 2 C2H2 + 5 O2 -> 4 CO2 + 2 H2O
- if pure acetylene will detonate if pressurized by simply decomposing: C2H2-> 2C + H2

after this the carbon and hydrogen could be oxidized resulting in a second explosion :D
Arkangel January 9th, 2002, 02:22 PM

Whhich explains why the 2 bottles in an oxyacetylene set are at quite different pressures I guess. Don't they have a liquid or
something in the acetylene bottle that it is dissolved in or something? I know they are heavy as fuck, even when you have run
out of gas

Yes, the bottle contains kieselgur (same thing used in dynamite to stabilize NG) which has been soaked in aceton, the
acetylene dissolves in this. Otherwise the bottles would just explode during filling.
BTW, the critical pressure is 6,24MPa
PYREX January 9th, 2002, 02:47 PM

A good alternative for weatherballoons are waste bags. The fact that wastebags can not be pressurized is neglegible if you
consider that balloons of such a size only contain a pressure of several milibars.
I once filled a 10l bag with acetylene/air(!), it was heard over 1km. Imagine a 200l bag... ...with O2 :eek:

In doing my oxygen/acetlyene mixture experiments I have the following results:
Experiment: Put a 12" diameter balloon underwater (tied down by string and bricks) and ignited (to see if this mixture in a
balloon could be used as a depth charge).
Results: No real power as a depth charge because (being that this is a gas mixture) all pressure was directed towards the
surface of the water rather than make a shockwave around it. No continued experimentation on this idea will continue.
Experiment: put a bowl of gasoline on top of a 12" balloon and ignited--testing to see if the gas would particlize and ignite
Results: the gasoline was blown into the air but the explosion of the balloon was consentrated in the shape of the original
balloon and none of the gasoline ignited. Continued experimentation on this may result if I discover a way to ignite the
gasoline.. give me some suggestions!
Experiment: More volume, more explosion? A 24 inch diameter 'punching balloon' was ignited
Results: Report was approximately equal to (maybe even less) than my usual 12" balloons.. only difference was the fireball
was obviously larger being that it takes the shape to the original balloon. I believe the reason to this has just been previously
answered by another person who stated that the more volume, the less the pressure. Continuation on this experiment will go
forth if I can find a balloon of a much stronger rubber that can be large and yet extremely pressurized.. my torch is currently
rated at 81-87psi.
------My conclusions/suggestions-------
as a propellant, this mixture seems to be much more powerful than your everyday smokeless powder which leads me to
believe that a cheap way to reload cartridges in the future could be simply by refilling gas. As an explosive, this mixture leaves
no residue (that I can see) as most all other HE and LE do after use; therefore this could make this mixture the pride of a
criminal being that it leaves no real evidence other than whatever its casing was.
[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]

hmmm... no one replied to my last post.. did my ideas stump them or did the other 'forumites' (as nbk calls them) think my
ideas of using an explosive gas to replace ammunition propellants too rediculous to comment on? :rolleyes:
haha well anyways the past few days I have been using my balloon charges for the noise only (I admit that I tend to get
caught up in simply having fun than doing real experimentation).. but now I have a new idea to put forth:
In the atomic bomb, a nuclear shell/case is used filled with a HE that will (upon detonation) cause the nuclear core to reach
critical mass and release its energy. Would it be so illogical of a thought to use this idea with my 'balloon charges'? What I
mean is, if I put some sort of HE within the balloon (when deflated) and then fill it with oxygen/acetelyne, could I skip the stop
of having to use a blasting cap? The reason I am saying this is because someone has posted that the mixture detonates
rather than deflagrates (they said 3000m/s although that sounds a bit outrageous to me). Does anybody think that the
explosion of the balloon (upon ignition) would make a powerful enough shockwave to replace a bcap???
I tried my mixture within an old intertube (with a electrical rocket ignitor rubber cemented into part of the tube) and set it off.
The explosion was still not much louder than my balloon charges (I am starting to think the reason is possibly because the
bigger the volume, the lower the pitch of the explosion) however I was 30 ft away from it and I felt shockwave quite noticably
as it blew across my body.. I mean it didn't knock me over or anything but it was definitly noticable.
nbk2000 January 13th, 2002, 04:02 AM

Here's an idea for you:
Rather than using ballons, use a polymeric soap solution to make a dense bubble foam from the gas mix.
2% PVA, dibromide soap, glycerine, water.
Details are found in a popular mechanics or science article during the mid to late '60's. The bubbles would last for hours or
days.
It's solid enough that you can cut a big chunk of it off with cardboard and carry it around.
Interesting possibilities, that.
Big blob of foam next to victims doorway.

"What the fuck is this?"
Rod laser pulse onto small patch of carbon dust on foam, instant incandecense, BOOM!
Traces: Soap and carbon soot. Bomb techs confused as hell, no idea what the fuck it was. Victim killed by blast, but no
explosives found.
Hydrogen and oxygen floats as a big layer of foam in doorway overhead. Lightbulb broken out to reveal naked filament,
immersed in foam.
Victim walks in, flips on switch, BLAM!
Foam layer underneath victims car. .22 tracer skip fired through foam when victim is at car door. Big explosion, possible gas
fire, the usual.
With foam to hold a flammable gas in place, the possiblities really present themselves. And the forensic guys will be shaking
their heads as to how this "cloud of gas" was able to exist long enough to be hazardous.
:D
BTW: It's another Newbie No-No to say "Why hasn't anyone replied to my topic?".
Sounds like whining, and we really hate whiners here.
[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]
mongo blongo January 13th, 2002, 11:50 AM

I like that idea! :)
But what is dibromide soap? Is that just normal soap?
nbk2000 January 13th, 2002, 01:05 PM

It's soap that uses bromine instead of hydroxide (lye) as the sopanification agent for the fat. I believe it's used as some sort
of medical sterilizing soap. Don't ask me where you can buy it 'cause I have no idea.
You'd probably have to make it. Good news though is that it doesn't take a lot to make the foam.
NoltaiR January 13th, 2002, 08:59 PM

I think I understand your idea but the mixture just isn't powerful enough to do any real damage in any form that doesn't
involve including something for schrapnel (unless you just wanted to try to burn the person).
Anyways I have another idea (and yes, I know that many of these ideas sound a bit rediculous that I have mentioned.. but
then again creativity is the fuel of invention :cool:
The idea is making a weak (but cheap) version of a det cord.. you could simply fill a waterhose with the mixture
(any desired length.. just as long as it is capped up at one end when filling and then when your done cap both ends.. maybe a
commercial rocket ignitor cemented into the side of the hose)
When ready to use, simply uncap one end and put it into the HE..
The more compressed you make it, the more powerful the final explosion will be.
---conclusions---
I already see flaws in this experiment but give your suggestions and maybe I can work this idea out
nbk2000 January 14th, 2002, 12:59 AM

If you have a large enough volume of gas exploding, then there's no need for a fragmentation kill mechanism. Concussive
blast alone will do it. It's especially effective in a confined space.
And it leaves no physical evidence behind to be traced back like metal fragments would.
mark March 14th, 2002, 12:27 AM

Or maybee, not killing and maiming people may lead to no evidence? Just a thought.
Phoenix April 25th, 2002, 12:37 PM

would it be more powerful if you take butan instead of acetylen?? it has a larger density and so will create more energy by
volume??
i know acetylen is itself exothermic but the density of butan is a lot of higher
i once made 4 L of butan ox was really good but i havent compared it to acetylen ox
does anyone of you know ??
or maybe even take a gas with oxygen that has a biger density then O2
NO2 or something
A_W April 25th, 2002, 02:25 PM

Just be careful with those acetylene/O2 mixes! My grandfather (who is a professional welder), told me about some guys filling
a small plastic bag with acetylene/O2, and dropped it from a building. The bag hit a car, exploded, and the guys had to pay
for the damage done to the car. This must mean that acetylene/O2 mixes are quite sensitive to friction/shock. <img

or static discharge from the bag.

Their also quite sensitive to murphys law. The baloon poped right as I ignited my lighter. Took the hair right off my arm, glad
their wasnt any oxygen inside or the arm would be gone.
[ April 25, 2002, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: mark ]
Project IGI April 25th, 2002, 10:06 PM

Too bad on your accident, hope it doesn't happen again.
xoo1246 April 26th, 2002, 06:04 AM

Bubble the gas through water if you want to avoid static electicity discharges.
A_W April 26th, 2002, 07:23 AM

mark- How long had the baloon been lying around with the acetylene? After some time, oxygen will be absorbed trough the
baloon wall, and the explotion will get much louder. This is a common chemistry demonstration: The lecturer has two baloons.
One is recently filled (with hydrogen though), and one has been lying around (not sure how long) Both are ignited, and one is
much more powerful than the other.

You can't just compare this with your experiment, the balloons used in the experiment weren't oxygen balanced and likely
contained too much hydrogen. The acetylene balloon had already pure oxygen mixed in, so it's likely that absorbing oxygen
would only make the explosion less powerful.
Also, if more oxygen comes into the balloon, some acetylen will escape from the balloon, otherwise the pressure would rise by
itself.

My baloon was freshly filled. It went straight from the bottle to the fuse, as I dont believe in waiting. This could have
happened to any gas, and the moral of the story is not to make powerful devices out of cheap korean baloons.
Jager April 28th, 2002, 04:28 PM

My grandfather used to make oxygen/acetylene explosives. He would fill black industrial size trash bags with the mixture, and
set them off with a long piece of masking tape, if you wanted more security that the tape would not go out you can coat the
sticky part in blackpowder. I forgot the ratio he used but he found one that worked the best.

You could probobly use leather punching bag balls or basketballs as containers.
EP April 28th, 2002, 08:35 PM

So far only one person has mentioned using anything other than thin, flexible plastic (either bags or balloons). Has anyone
compared a 2L or similar plastic bottle with a balloon/bag of comparable volume? Seems like the extra confinement would
create a larger bang/more powerful explosion.
It's already been said, but be careful with this stuff! I think static is a much bigger risk with this compared to other things like
BP. I read a year or so about a welder on the 4th of July filling plastic bags with acetylene and one went of very close, killing
him.
When filling in the field, it would be difficult to bubble through water, what about giving the filler and the balloon/whatever a
quick mist of laundry anti-static spray? It may even be flammable! :)
[ April 28, 2002, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: EP ]
NoltaiR April 28th, 2002, 08:40 PM

A coke bottle would prove much more powerful than any trash bag due to the fact that oxygen/acetylene functions as a
deflagrating explosive that builds power due to the amount of confinement given as well as a bottle holding more pressure
than a balloon or bag would.
A basketball would also be a good thing to try because unlike a cokebottle, you can completely flatten it and then fill it up (so
it would be acetylene and O2 rather than acetylene, O2, and air).
grimreaper January 12th, 2007, 10:47 PM

first you solder 2 thin but long wires (as long as possible) at least 10 metres, to a 21 watt 12 v bulb (automobile type) , this
you dangle in your 5 gall plastic drum ) you then fix a 110/220v plug on the other end , then you put an equally long piece of
1/4 " nylon pneumatic tube (rubber air line also works ) in the bag or container with a stone or large nut taped on the end ,
then about 2" of water in the bottom along with about 1/2 cup of washin up liquid
retire behind your shield (old mattress )
light up the welding torch, get the mix neutral, snuff the flame, now put the nozzle in the end of the tube , keep an eye on
the container , when the bubbles / foam start to come out of the neck shut down the torch , close the cylinder valves , store
the bottles away , no hurry
you sure nobodys around ? ok plug it in , if you done this indoors you probably dead allready , if outdoors, once your ears
stop ringing start thinking up real good excuses coz the police gona come callin real soon
the tubing whips like a bastard and the extension lead you used instead of thin wire will likely have been ripped from the wall ,
as for the plastic drum hope the original owner didnt need it because the only parts you will find are the really thick bottom
and neck parts
this could likely be modified for plastic bags , remember , washing up liquid water, bubbles = no static, no big rush
REMEMBER
LONG TUBES , LONG WIRES , MATTRESS , EXCUSES
fused February 18th, 2007, 10:34 PM

I saw a picture of a car, where someone had a balloon filled with acetylene gas in the backseat.
Apparently he was going to be tailgating at a football game and wanted to give some of the guys a show.. big mistake.
Well the whole roof of the car was dented upwards a good 10" and it blew all the windows out completely. Also the man and his
wife who the car belonged to suffered burst eardrums and some other shit.. I can't remember. Apparently the culprit was static
electricity. Yeah he also went to prison for like 5 years.. what a bunch of shit.
Also I read somewhere of someone who was trying to get the best bang for the buck with acetylene and he had sprayed anti-
static spray into a 5gal bucket to coat the insides and lid, then filled it with acetylene. He must have used an electric det (I
sure as hell would). He claims it made a very big boom and completely ripped the bucket up. It seems fairly easy.. not so
sure about the safety aspects though. I'd check into the anti-static spray for sure.. might be handy in other projects as well.
Meawoppl February 21st, 2007, 02:42 AM

I would not have though it so dangerous. I guess there is a reason that I keep those tanks outside.
Here is the link:

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/23/acetylene_filled_bal.html
They all survived, just hurt their eardrums and picked up some glass. I am guessing there was O2 in that balloon as well. It
probably from the sister tank on the welding torch. Plain old C2H2 is harder to light than propane in my experience, and I
don't think that it would have caused such a powerful blast.
I know everyone here has lit H2 balloons . . . pop!
Bert February 21st, 2007, 11:36 AM

It's dangerous allright. In 30 + years of pyro, this and Armstrong's mix are the only things to send me to an ER. I advise you
not to mess with it.
Bluebanshee April 12th, 2007, 03:06 PM

I used to mess around with oxy acetylene mixes, one really fun thing that we came up with was to take a party popper (small
plastic party pyrotechnic that makes a small bang and fires streamers out on the pull of a string) and dismantle it to the point
where you just have the pyrotechnic wrap in a small stub of plastic, then take a plastic drink bottle cap, drill a hole in it and
glue the party popper stub into it.
Fill a large plastic drink bottle (preferably the 3 litre ones) with the oxy acetylene mix and screw on the modified cap. tie a
longer length of string to the party popper.
You then have a device capable of being ignited by a string pull, i.e you can use the string as a trip wire, or manually pull it
yourself. this device is very loud and will scare the living daylights out of anyone who trips it, its fairly harmless though.
Incidentally, the string pull mechanism can be used to set off all kind of other pyros also.
Oh and I wouldnt even think about compressing the oxy acetylene mix into any kind of container, i think its almost certain to
spontaneously ignite from the pressure alone, even without an ignition source. The gas mix itself has a fairly high energy
output per unit mass, however, being a gas theres v little mass per unit volume, and as such you will never get a very high
velocity and pressure of detonation.
About the best thing you can do with it from a fun point of view, is to fill a large container (say around 30-40 litres) and
explode it. it will set car alarms off a few hundred metres away and make the neighbours think that world war 3 has begun. :)
FireBomb August 5th, 2007, 08:44 PM

While I have never experimented with oxy acetylene mixtures but I have had some close calls with it before.
Here about 2 years ago I was cutting some steel for a bracket and while cutting I hear a small popping sound about as loud
as a small fire cracker but I didn't think anything about it and continued cutting.
The next I heard an even louder pop about as loud as a 22lr and out of the corner of my eye to my horror I saw my acetylene
tank hop up into the air about 3 inches.
Needless to say I almost crapped my pants and immediately turned off the gas and took my tank outside and checked for
leaks with soap and water and found a small hairline crack at the base of the tank.
Here several years back about 10 or so a welder was cutting up some old underground tanks he purchased to sell for scrap.
They turned out to be used for gasoline storage from an old gas station and he being an idiot didn't purge the tanks with inert
gas before starting to cut them.
Needless to say they were picking up pieces of him up in a wheat field almost 1/2 a mile away.
While that was not an acetylene related explosion it showed to me the extreme dangers of fuel air mixtures.
I have always wondered the effectiveness of an Oxy acetylene based weapon would be.
That brings to mind the movie "Underworld Evolution" while not a great movie it did have an interesting explosive weapon in it.
A small device about the size of a hockey puck that when activated released a compressed flammable gas and then after it
had mixed with the air several seconds later it initiated a spark igniting it.
This has always intrigued me as someone could fabricate a device small enough to be portable containing two tanks one
oxygen and another acetylene.
This device would then be transported to an enclosed area and a timer set then once the timer goes off the tanks valves open
releasing the gas to be mixed and after several seconds or minutes ignite the gases.
Unsunghero August 6th, 2007, 01:17 AM

Well talking to NBK here on his polymeric soap bubble idea, me and some friends had had a little bit to drink one night (all
great or terrible stories begin with that line). So anyways we found a bottle of bubbles..I had the idea to blow the bubbles up
with the torch and light them, but the problem with this is that you can't pressurize the gas, I think that would be exceedingly
difficult. You would have to have a really, really big bubble for that..then again I think a 20x20 bubble of acetylene would be a
GREAT last conscious image sort of thing.
Well, I think the problem with that device would be the other gasses in the air. The nitrogen etc. you can't light a oxy-
acetylene torch from very far heh. It would have to disperse the gasses FAST to actually work. Even then I think it would be a
pretty unreliable way to clear a room.
Honestly i don't see this working, you would have to instantly not only disperse most of the tank, but it would have to be
dispersed as far as you want the fiery inferno to extend.
I would think something like a tank with a electronic sparker/detonator or something rigged on the top of it would work. It
would be exceedingly simple, it doesn't take much to set off acetylene, open the tank, throw it, hit a button, a spark from the
wires, boom.
Another thing I just thought about, why the oxygen? The reason for oxygen in the torch is to intensify the acetylene to melt
metal. While this works great when you want a pile of molten "crap" I don't honestly see the need for the oxygen to intensify
the flame, acetylene burns really hot 900 C (1652F) according to wiki (didn't see it anywhere else for pure acetylene). Have
you ever seen what pure acetylene fire does to flesh? It's not pretty, pretty sure pure acetylene would fuck you up pretty fast.
Besides if the tank blows, you get shrapnel, this would work well for anti-personnel scenarios.
Another thought:
If you used oxygen with it you could possibly make something like a gaseous thermite bomb. If you could rig it right I think
with the right mix of oxygen/acetylene (not to mention quiet a bit of it) blow a hole in something with an HE, and burn through
it. Lemme sketch a little design out for it. This would obviously need some tweaking but you get the idea, it would blow the
weak point in the tank etc. out and the oxy/acetylene mixture would follow the lane of least resistance. If you compressed
enough for a 20-30 second burn you would have a decent sized hole. Slip a gun barrel in for an assassination, throw in your
tear gas, get line of site, etc. This is the ONLY reason i could think of you needing the oxygen.
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/8430/idrawgoodfc8.png
Sorry for the terrible picture quality..I think I had a few good suggestions though.
Um, for some reason image shack isn't working but I just noticed I forgot the oxygen, and I forgot to mention if someone DID
try this I know acetylene tanks have some kind of liquid, but I can't remember for the life of me what.
FireBomb August 6th, 2007, 03:25 PM

I forgot to mention if someone DID try this I know acetylene tanks have some kind of liquid, but I can't remember for the life
of me what.
The cylinders are packed with various porous materials (e.g. kapok fibre, diatomaceous earth, or, formerly, asbestos), then
filled about half way with acetone. The acetylene dissolves into the acetone. This method is necessary because above 207 kPa
(30 lbf/in) (absolute pressure) acetylene is unstable and may explode. There is about 1700 kPa (250 lbf/in) of pressure in
the tank when full
Straight from Wikipedia got to love it.
Another Idea I thought up last night was to initiate a mixture of Oxy/acetylene under moderate pressure.
Someone could use a small high pressure tank like the ones used for paintball using compressed air.
These tanks range from pressure ranges of 3500 psi to 5500 psi and are used instead of Co2. They provide more constant
pressure and the players don't have to worry about liquid Co2 freezing the O-rings in there guns or pressure drops do to
temperature.
Any way the tanks are moderately priced and decent sizes ranging from 50 ci to 120 ci.
nbk2000 August 18th, 2007, 01:26 AM

Please do compress a mixture of acetylene and oxygen in a steel pressure bottle.
Please let us know when you'll be doing it so we can watch the news. :)
megalomania August 18th, 2007, 04:13 AM

There is no "may" about acetylene decomposing. It breaks down into pure carbon at the slightest hint of pressurization. At
high pressure it will explode without oxygen, and with oxygen the explosion will just be bigger. I too would love to see you
try... Please send video of the experiment, lifeflight rescue, post reconstructive surgery, and trial to one of the FTP's.
Unsunghero August 18th, 2007, 02:10 PM

Again I ask, why do you need oxygen in this mixture to torch someone? I've personally never seen an acetylene tank go up,
but I've seen small amounts of acetylene go off, and it's enough to detonate into a fierce fireball. One time when I was
working with an oxy/acetylene torch I had just turned it on (just acetylene) and I accidentally brushed my hand with the flame.
It burned through my glove and left blisters in about a second and a half (didn't notice it for a bit because through the gloves
you don't feel heat much).
Rbick August 20th, 2007, 05:57 PM

Look back a few posts, they talk about "pure Acetylene flame" and how it can "fuck" you up. I've never worked with Oxy/
Acetylene torches before, but it makes sense... Perhaps the decomposition of pure Acetylene (C2H2) is enough to cause a
noticeable flame? This of course would just be broken down into 2 Carbon atoms and H2 (Hydrogen gas). But if bonded with
Oxygen, making Carbon Dioxide and Water, the heat generated would be far greater due to the energy created by formation
of both CO2 and H2O is quite high. Just be glad you only had the Acetylene on when you burned yourself ;)
Or maybe if you had introduced a spark, that could have been enough energy to begin a reaction bonding the Oxygen from
the air with the Acetylene coming from the torch?
Sorry if this is off topic, but previous posts talk about assassinations and hockey pucks filled with Acetylene... Too far out of
my league here :rolleyes:
Unsunghero August 21st, 2007, 02:00 AM

Yes, a spark is certainly enough to instigate a reaction, thus why we use a "sparker" to light it. Basically just a piece of metal
brushing a piece of flint is used to light it.
I am very lucky I only had the acetylene on, that's why I don't turn on my oxygen 'til I'm pointing at the steel.
The decomposition causes more than a "noticeable" flame, it creates an extremely bright, hot inferno. When you add oxygen
it goes more into a blue flame that is MUCH brighter and MUCH hotter, basically to punch through a piece of metal you add a
high-pressure blast of oxygen (when you hit the lever).
Thinking about it, it does give off some tiny carbon particles, might be applicable in the ionization of gasses thread.
Maybe you could have 2 tanks, with a hose connecting the 2, each tank would be a regulator so they wouldn't mix 'til it's time.
In the middle of the hose would be emission media, so basically you hit the valve/regulator/etc wait about 10 seconds, it
emits your favorite mix (70/30 or 66/34) you ignite it and the flashback detonates the acetylene, which will get at least a little
into the oxygen tank detonating that. So basically it would be like having a primary and a booster, oxygen being you're
booster.
A method of guaranteeing the flashback is kind of unknown to me, but a suggestion would be open the hose to the acetylene
and not the oxygen. You could just have a regulator on the oxygen, when you turned it on it would mix with the acetylene and
I'm pretty sure it would go back into the acetylene bottle (which would be at 1-2PSI tops).
nbk2000 August 23rd, 2007, 12:27 PM

For anyone actually suicidal enough to try it, one of those lovely jihadi videos on making oxy-acetylene gas bombs out of
propane canisters:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5C0M4KI5
It does pack a wallop.
Apparently the ratios are 25%/75%, though I don't know which is O2 and which is Acetylene.
Rbick August 23rd, 2007, 04:14 PM

HA that video is hilarious. I don't know where you find this stuff nbk, but it is entertaining. Something tells me that these
people really don't care how suicidal it is, as long as it works... And if they die while attempting it, thats ok, because it was for
the JIHAD!
barrydbryson February 1st, 2008, 07:29 PM

My father was also a welder by trade. His wonderfully explosive gasses began disappearing unexpectedly when I turned 14 or
so. C2H2 was my first explosive to play with; and I can attest to the "rubber dust" from thoroughly shattered balloons. A 6X18"
acetylene cannon soon followed; but it made entirely too much noise, often bringing the county police. (They wanted to fire it;
so after 4 or 5 rounds they were laughing hysterically and jumping with joy!)
But, to increase the fun factor of this July 4th salute, I suggest that you compress a stoichiometric mixture of C2H2 and O2 to
about 5 atmospheres inside a 2-liter soda bottle. I've carefully monitored the rupture pressure of these containers; and it's
about 95 psig. So maybe it would hold the explosive mixture at 75 psia. I plan to lathe turn a rugged metal "Coke" bottle cap
and install a coaxial electric spark igniter within. Such a permanent "boom machine" would require only legal chemicals;
electricity, and a good supply of pop bottles.
I'm wondering now what kind of adiabatic flame temperature would result from such an explosion. It's been almost 40 years
since I took engineering thermo (twice!); but if we knew the temp. at state 2 we could probably whip out the peak pressure
and calculate its attenuation with distance. I know the gas in the atmospheric 6X18" gun has about the heating value of 10
grams of TNT; and it sounds like it! I'll dust off Faries's big blue book and study up on the subject; but I welcome anyone to
chime in with information; personal experiences, etc.
Acetylene guns have been a fascination of mine since I moved into rice country 25 years ago and heard their anti-bird music.
Hurry retirement! I want to play again; and I've still got one good eardrum.
Here are some fresh dull pencil figures on the true "pop" bottle experiment:
gas volume: 122 cubic inches

initial gas pressure: 90 psia
total mass of reactants: 0.0648 lbs (29 grams)
heating value of reactants: 611 BTU
adiabatic flame temp: about 3700 deg. R
surface pressure: about 1130 psia on an spherical equivalent container (3.076inch radius)
These numbers were arrived at by relating heats of formation of the reactants to the heating value of the acetylene. P and T
values are from gas tables by matching the enthalpy of the reactants.
BTW, the notorious "Coke" thread appears to be 1.088"X8 threads/inch. 'gotta get that cap made!
BB
Bert February 2nd, 2008, 11:40 AM

You know and understand why compressing acetylene gas beyone 15 psi or so is a bad idea, of course?
The most professional gun shot, cannon and mortar simulators I have seen made for military training use Oxygen and
gaseous propane. None compress the charge beyond atmospheric pressure after mixing. http://www.orlandospfx.com/
battlefield.html
Yafmot February 11th, 2008, 01:15 AM

Hey, guys, there's another name for an OA device. It's called a Thermobaric Weapon! I've had some dealings with the nice
people at Indian Head, which is DOD's preeminent lab for energetic materials. (Don't bother to call them; they're pretty
closed-mouthed about this shit.)
One of their publicly known concoctions involves Ethylene Oxide & #2 Diesel. (Don't fuck around with EO: it's way toxic and will
take the hide right off you.) It's sprayed, abruptly, into a fine cloud of mist, and then set off with a high temperature
deflagratory agent, typically just M-80 mix with a little bit of Zirconium in it. They also work with quite a few metallic aerosols
which I can't talk about except to say that it's akin to "Dragon's Breath."
One of the tests that I saw was on a calm day. There was a tower about 20 feet tall with the device on top. Old cars and
anthropomorphic dummies were arranged around it at various distances. A few freshly euthanized animals, mostly goats, were
among the test targets.
At the end of the countdown, a cloud of vapor about 30 ft. in diameter quickly emanated from the top of the tower,
immediately followed by the ejection of the metallic flame into the cloud, which was almost simultaneous with the detonation
of the vapor. (I was watching from a bunker, 300M away, with a spotter scope.)
WOW!!! The thermal and overpressure effects of that thing were just unbelieveable! The closer vehicles were knocked to
flaming pieces, the ones at mediun range (about 150 ft.) were sent flying, the farthest ones had all the glass knocked out,
the closer dummies were pretty well pulverized, with the more distant ones twisted and dismembered. The whole range had
the stench of charred "goat squeezin's," and a goat's horn was found stuck in a car door.
It's no wonder these fuckers are known as the "poor man's nuke."
If you keep thinking the way you are, you're just going to stink up the place with "Eu-de Michelin." You don't need to
pressurize it in a tire. Or a tank. Or a pop bottle or anything else. You might, however, want to try a different Oxidizer. Here's
why...
Oxygen has a very strong affinity for just about any other element, or even itself, for that matter. O2 has to be thermally
dissociated to atomic Oxygen before it combines with anything (except when forming Ozone), and that's why it's not used by
racers in their engines; by the time it starts to work on the fuel, the piston is already well past TDC, so you just wind up
increasing heating without doing nearly the work the mixture should be theoretically capable of. It is, however, capable of
cooking pistons, rings, exhaust valves & seats, plus glazing Graphitic Carbon onto everything in sight.
On the other hand, Nitrous Oxide (N2O) works very nicely in engines for the same reason Nitrogen forms the basis for so
many explosives. Nitogen is thought of as "inert," or nearly so, because it doesn't like to grab onto much of anything. That's
why nitrated explosives are generally unstable; the Nitrogen wants to dump whatever is attatched to it, and let the molocule
revert to its more basic constituents. In an engine, even though the N2O has only about 33%, by weight, of Oxygen, it dumps
the O with much less energy input, meaning that much more of the charge is put to work in the arc of maximum mechanical
advantage, generally between 40 deg. after TDC and 40 BDC.
In a thermobaric application, N2O works much better for the above reasons plus one other. In an engine, under normal
operation, the atmospheric oxygen (about 20%) is reacted with the Hydrocarbon fuel, providing an intense, instantaneous
blast of heat, and the Nitrogen (about 80%) becomes the working fluid, expanding violently upon heating.
So, I think if you put flowmeters on both the Oxygen and Acetylene lines, take readings based on your ideal flame, switch
Oxidizer tanks and use a little over three times the flow of N2O as for O2, squirt it in a big bag, and set it off with a
directionalized charge of flash (remotely!), you will come up with a very brizant detonation with a huge thermal component and
a truly devastating overpressure. Hell, I'd almost bet money on this one.
Just make sure you use some Looooong fuckin' wires!

I don't remember the numbers and such.....I'm just searching my memory for this but wasn't the Daisy Cutter (something like
the BLU92) first designed as a "dry" FAE device and was "re-designed" in a similar manner??? One of those new "big bad
bastards" are designed in a similar fashion, I believe...

How'd my post get knocked off? I just wrote a long winded dissertation on why N2O would work better than O2 in a thermobaric
device. I also gave a pretty detailed description of a test I saw, replete with trashed cars and splattered goats.
Oh, well, try about 3x the amount of Nitrous oxide as you would O2, and set it off remotely. VERY remotely.
Whoops! Now it's back.
Anyway, Charles, The "Daisy Cutter" was just a big-ass bucket of Comp-B with a nose on one end and some fins on the other.
It was yanked out the back door of a C-130 or C-141 by a parachute & made instant LZs in the jungle. It was purported to kill
the worms in the ground 400 feet from the epicenter of the blast.

My question at this point would be.... how much does a Thermobaric type weapon cost? Aside from effect overall, is it more
efficient or presents more of a cost savings?
-=HeX=- February 14th, 2008, 09:17 PM

Yafmot: NO2 would work great. You are onto something, but would explosive rupturing of the cans not be better than gaesous
mixing? And IIRC A THERMOBARIC weapon is cheaper for the damage dealt.
btw, what size would a acetylene FAE bomb have to be for a 10 metre blast radius of shock and flame, or is that a dumb
question. And how does the 7gram hexamine and 7gram HMTD thermobaric explosive work. The video makes it appear to be
impact ignited...

Charles, to answer your question first, when they say "Poor Man's Nuke," they mean DIRT po'. Thermobaric devices,
themselves, are just shit-cheap. #2 Diesel, for the amount of latent energy, is practically free. (For max. thermal effect, I
would recommend JET-A, JP-4 or JP-8 if you can get it. I used to get JP-7 from a friend of mine who worked on SR-71s at
Beale AFB, but they don't make it any more). Ethylene Oxide is inexpensive in bulk, but the handling/environmental/
sequestration costs would eat your average private individual alive. Hence my recommendation for N2O, which can be had at
any decent race shop.
With the air launched thermobarics they've been trying to stick in caves (with great success, I might add), the lion's share of
the cost is wrapped up in the delivery system, which shoots the cash outlay right up there, especially if you add in the cost of
the launch platform (F-16, F15, FA-18, A-10 etc).
HeX, first off, I distinctly said N2O, that's NITROUS OXIDE, LAUGHING GAS!!! If you get a whiff of it, you might get a little dizzy.
If you get a REALLY good whiff of it, your ears will ring, you may laugh uncontrollably, and you might well hallucinate.
If you get a good whiff of NitrIC Oxide, NO2, you will get an irritation not unlike being teargassed. After an hour or so, the
irritation will subside, and you'll probably just go about your business. The next day, you'll wake up feeling fine, except for
maybe a headache, but as the day progresses, you'll feel shorter of breath. This is because the N2O that deposited iself onto
your mucous membranes is, thanks to the water in your linings and a little body heat, converting into HNO3 and, by extension,
converting your lungs into decomposed mush. Not to worry. The outcome is assured; you'll be dead by dinnertime.
And yes. cost per amount of damage is a good way to determine the cost effectiveness of an explosive device. I think they
call it "Bang for the Buck."
As to the size of device for a 10 meter radius, with the proper stoichiometry a large trash bag, properly ignited, would likely
knock the shit out of anyone within a 30 foot radius (in the open). Want more thermal effect? Go a little fuel rich.
Overpressure? Go a little lean. Want to go bigger? Any dry cleaning supply outfit would probably have the plastic bags used to
line industrial laundry carts. These fuckers are HUGE. We once used one to contain a bunch of Hydrogen-filled rubbers we
charged off a good ol' NaOH, Al and H2O reaction. We made a couple of dozen of the H balloons, plus about a half dozen of
some filled with OA. The thing had tons of lift, so we stuck about five feet of visco on it (meticulously straightened), with about
18 in. going into the big bag and taped to one of the OA-filled condoms. We lit the fuse, let it go, and the thing climbed like a
fart in the bathtub, straight up, to at least 1,000 feet (it was dark, so it was hard to tell the exact altitude). And then....
BAM!..bomp..BAMBABAM..bomp bombadathump..BABAM.. thumpadabump..BAM! The thing looked like the goddamned

Hindenburg, slowly sagging, with pieces descending slowly in flames, while the lighter pieces that got caught in the Hydrogen
flames shot rapidly upward. The "copperchopper" was soon about, and had apparently reported a possible midair, and there
were several calls to local TV and Radio stations reporting UFOs. This added immensely to both our amusement and fear
factor.
Whoops! Getting sidetracked here. Suffice it to say that if you're going to play with Thermobarics, GIVE YOURSELF PLENTY OF
ROOM UNLESS YOU DON'T LIKE OPEN CASKET FUNERALS!!!.
I have not seen or heard of the Hexamine-HMTD device you mentioned, but if you could get a det off a puff of Hexamine
dust, you probably wouldn't need to use HMTD or any other primary to set it off. Just a well-directed charge of flash, like an
open-ended M-80.
JUST BE CAREFUL!!! This stuff is no joke.
-=HeX=- February 16th, 2008, 09:40 AM

Sorry for my nitric/Nitrous confusion, I know the difference, it was a typo.
Thanks for the info about the size of the device, as it is very important to a job I must do. Clearing out a chav infestation. I
intend to set it off 20 meters away and make them run.
The HMTD and hexamine thermo charge has quite got my attention at the moment so I am going to look into it.
Cool story about the huge air bomb, tons of lift you say? I would have attached a 50 kilo ANFO Charge with a 2 kilo ETN
Booster to it with 10 feet of visco. It would have edetonated at a high altitude. Heh, but that is just me. How much did it cost?
Yafmot February 18th, 2008, 02:18 AM

Cost? Aw, Hell, I'm not sure, exactly. We're talking about close to 30 years ago. Let's see, there was the big laudry cart liner.
My friend worked at a dry cleaning supply, and he used them to save LOTS of aluminum cans. They came on rolls so big &
heavy that they were best moved about with a hand truck. I have no idea what they'd cost now, but I do remember they were
made by Mobil Chemical. I think they were just plain old Polyethylene.
As for the rest, it just involved a jar of Lye from the supermarket, a roll of aluminum foil, and some tap water. In those days,
two liter Coke bottles were made of glass, with a rather large neck on them. We'd throw in some loosely wadded balls of foil, a
couple tablespoons of Lye, and about a half quart of water. An ice bath was a definite necessity for a couple of reasons. One,
a runaway reaction could break the bottle, and we'd have a nasty mess on our hands. Two, an overly vigorous reaction would
boil the water, leaving condensation in the condom, weighing it down.
So, let's see. A couple of boxes of rubbers, a jar of Lye, a roll of Al foil, some ice, and youre going to have to figure out
something else for the vessels, maybe a cheap wine jug or three. We ran multiple shots in multiple bottles, otherwise we'd
have been up all night generating enough H2 to fly all of that OA. What's that? About 10 bucks? Of course, you'll have to
figure out where to get a plastic bag that big, just to bundle it all up in, and you'll have to get your hand on an OA rig, to fill
the real bangers. (The baloons with pure H2 just make kind of a thump. The OA baloons go off pretty violently, provided
you've got the stoichiometry correct.
When I said "tons" of lift, I didn't mean it literally. When we were at launch weight, with all the different gas bags in place and
everything taped that needed to be (with 4 H2 balloons to every one OA balloon), we had maybe 5-10 lbs. of excess lift, which
was needed for a decent climb rate.
As far as finding some of those big laundry cart liners, might I suggest a hospital housekeeping department, or perhaps a
uniform shop, the kind that rotates various coveralls and the like for shops they have contracts with; a bit like a diaper service,
which also might be a place to check.
And, as always, be way careful with this stuff. If even one of those rubbers full of OA goes off in close proximity, you'll be
scorched meat. Hydrogen has, pound for pound, the highest caloric content of any combustible fuel. The reason Acetylene is
used for welding is the incredible heat it generates when oxidized. This is due to the fact that all of the molecular bonds are
triple bonds, which release a huge amount of thermal energy when broken. If that whole thing goes off in your face, it won't
leave much more than a greasy spot, so again, HeX, BE CAREFUL!!!. Don't fully assemble it until right before launch. Don't let
your visco curl up on you. Stupid little shit like that gets you hurt. Try to think of everything and then some.
And don't forget to keep us apprised of any progress. Maybe some video.
Thanks.
P.S. What the Fuck's a chav?

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > nitro powder
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I thought you guys might get a kick out of this old recipe from "the thecno-chemical reciept book 1896. I have not tried this if anyone has let me know if it works.giant powder
2 mixtures are prepared: a. 36.06 parts of potassium or sodium bisulphate,28.60 of P. nitrate,and 9.20 of glycerine.
b. 50 to 55 parts clorate and 50 to 45 parts a substance rich in carbon.
On igniting a mixture of the 2,it is claimed that mixture b evolves sufficent heat to effect the nitrifcation of the glycerine and explosion of the notroglycerine. the material rich in
carbonis saturated with the concentrated solutions of bisulphate,nitrate and clorate and dried. the mass is then mixed with the glycerine and made into cartridges.
sounds strange.lol..do any of you chemistry hounds have an explantion as to if or how this would work?
da man June 30th, 2002, 11:19 PM

i don't know much about chemistry but what i think happens, is that the sodium bisulfate and potassium nitrate react at very high temperatures to form nitric acid (see the
topic in the nitric acid section), which would then react with the glycerine forming nitroglycerine which is detonated by heat. However, i certainly can't imagine this working
realistically, because with just a quick burst of heat like that, only little will react forming nitric acid, and (it will probably be decomposed and vaporised), and nitroglycerine
must be formed at lower temperatures, or it will just plume nitrogen dioxide (or possibly explode in larger batches), it would also need a lot more time then a split second to
react!
So, it odes have logic behind it, but i doubt it would work.
inferno July 1st, 2002, 08:53 AM

The only explanation is what da man said. But doesn't NG require mixed sulphuric and nitric? And it can't form NG in a a fraction of a second like that. I very much doubt that
works. Even if it did work, and it detonates upon creation, the first part to detonate would throw the unreacted ingredients in all directions stopping further nitration of the
glycerine.
Its also saying the heat speeds up the nitration. IIRC NG is made in an ice bath? I cant see any way that this would work.
oryp69 July 1st, 2002, 11:37 AM

the sulfuric acid in the nitro recipe is just used to dehydrate it while it is nitrating, i don't think that it is completely necessary, but it helps the nitro to nitrate correctly by i guess
you would say kinda absorbing the water that is not needed...i may b wrong on this but i think that is the main purpose of the sulfuric acid
PYRO500 July 1st, 2002, 01:03 PM

The H2SO4 is necessary beacuse for one it does absorb water already existing in the solution and secondly it absorbs the water produced during the nitration, in fact I believe it
is something like 2.5 units of water are produced for every 1 unit of nitro. That is not to say you wouldn't get any nitro out of your reaction but the yeild would more than likely
be very shitty and the super concentrated HNO3 might not like directly being splashed with glycerine. In fact you would probobly have a hard time controling the reaction and
ruin your batch.
kanbayat July 1st, 2002, 11:10 PM

The recipe I mentioned is called "a new method for preparing giant powder". The original patent is for I guess old giant powder. It consisted of:40 parts nitro,40 parts s.
nitrate,6 of rosin,6 of sulphur,and 8 of infuserial earth or other analogous absorbant substance.
This forms a powerful blasting compound, whitch will not ignite from contact with flame nor from a blow,but may be readily exploded by the shock givin by discharging a cap
containing fulminate.
So it looks like someone tried to prepare the new compound from somthing safer than nitroglycerin,but in those days ppl were always going boom in the production of nitro. I
am quoting from the book.
The formula was patented it said,but goes no further with it. As to whether the "new giant powder" was ever used or what.
Interesting though.
Mad Scientist July 1st, 2002, 11:54 PM

Sounds viable. Very interesting... brilliant idea. Possibly suicidal though - if the nitration will begin without initiation by extreme temperatures (very possible). Go ahead and
give it a whirl, but start small (less than two grams of total combined mixture). Have a bottle of water on-hand; if it starts fuming NO2, drown it.
da man July 2nd, 2002, 12:41 AM

Mad scientist, the reaction will not happen without very high high temperatures. As sodium bisulfate and potassium nitrate react at around 300-400*C, so the point is that the
nitroglycerine will detonate as soon as it is formed from the heat needed for the nitric acid to form.
If you plan on doing this, what i would do is make composition A (start with about 4g of glycerine first) and wrap it up in a peice of aluminium foil. Then place it ontop of a cup
of very hot composition (such as thermite, but you could use something less hot). Then have a fuse leading into the hot composition in the cup, light the fuse and run!
It's possible that it work, if you have the chems i'd try it but be careful!
Mad Scientist July 2nd, 2002, 12:52 AM

I'm not so sure that the reaction won't happen at lower temperatures! Some nitric acid will be present, due to reaction equilibrium - and that may be enough to cause the
temperature to spiral out of control. Be careful! Don't make such assumptions that an explosive, of a completely foreign class, of which we have very little information on, is
actually safe. Just because it's patented doesn't mean it's a good idea either. After all, perpetual motion machines (cannot exist) have been patented, and they do not serve
their purpose or live up to the description provided to the slightest degree.
Chemistry isn't that simple - it's not a giant compilation of facts like "Substance A + Substance B = Substance C". It all has "grey areas" (for lack of a better term), caused by
factors such as equilibriums.
(edit: typo)
[ July 01, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Mad Scientist ]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Military flash powder and a whole lot of
water
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View Full Version : Military flash powder and a whole lot of water
ENGINEERKILLER January 9th, 2002, 12:49 AM

I usualy don't have a lot worth posting ,but I have a question people on this bb might be able to answer. T o m m orow I have to
d i g u p a b o u t 1 0 , 0 0 0 M 2 1 H O FFMANS they are basicly target hit sim ulaters they have an electric squib connected into a vile with
about an oz. of photo flash . Initialy we were gonna use hydraulic fluid to desensitize the flash as we went , but m y
c o m m a n d e r i s s o m ething of a wuss an d d e c i d e d n o t t o b e c a u s e o f p o s s i b l e E P A p r o b l e m s . S o h e g o t t h e f i r e d e p a r t m e n t t o
bring out a water tanker . I did some a research on m y own and I found out putting water on flash produces hydrogen gas
,then i was reading in one of the earlier threads that it was possibe to ge t spontaenous co m b u s t i o n f r o m p h o t o f l a s h i s t h e
s a m e true fo r military flash also . I know being a eod tech this may make m e s o u n d i g n o r a n t b u t I d o n ' t h a v e a g r e a t
background in chemistry . and i was wondering if som e o n e c o u l d m a y b e p o i n t m e in the generel direction for finding a good
place to reference it .
Anthony January 9th, 2002, 08:53 AM

I b e l e i v e t h e p r o b l e m occurs if there is m etal poweder in the flash (which m ost com positions have), this reacts with the water
creating heat and, IIRC hydrogen gas.
M o r e o f a p r o b l e m with hygroscopic m ixtures where a tiny about of absorbed moisture is e nough to cause a reaction but the
composition is still dry enough to ignite.
If th e d e v i c e s h a v e b e e n s o a k e d ( a s s u m bing they're not water proof) then they should be incapab le of com bustion even if the
squib were to go off.
ENGINEERKILLER January 9th, 2002, 09:38 AM

Thanks I will try to do a small sample this morning .If I don't reply in about 12 hours it means things wen't real bad .
ENGINEERKILLER January 10th , 2002, 10:04 AM

W e have dug up about 500 so far, at one time there was the intent of burning all of these simulaters. The whole had been
satu rated with diesel fuel and partial burn was complete d then for som e reason it was extinguished .
That was about three years ago so now we got to dig every single one up and and blow them up.
I tried putting a sm all am ount of water on the flash powdser and there was no visible reaction.I think this m ight be in part
because the powder is soaked in diesel from three years ago .Its gray on the outside and in big chunks but when you brake
them open it is still a white crystaline powder
Anthony January 10th , 2002, 11:52 AM

It's doubtful that you would have seen the reaction if it had occu red as it is very slow.
Funny that you mention the flash as being a white powder as any flash with m etal powders will be grey in colour. All I can think
of is whistle m ix which is like an organic flash (doesn't whistle unless com pressed), not usually used for reports though. If it is
whistle m ix then it wo uldn't have had the problem of reacting with the water.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Potassium perchlorate production
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View Full Version : Potassium perchlorate production
YTS August 9th, 2001, 06:44 PM

Whos got a good or simple way of producing it from potassium chlorate i know you have to heat to 400 c or something near
that but i would appreciate your methods instead of wasting time & chlorate which i have to produce from naclo3 .ie heating in
a pyrex sausepan with a thermometer for a certain amount of time CHEERS

ok there are two ways i know of. one is to heat the chlorate to melting point and hold it there for a few hours allowing it to be
oxidised further by oxygen in the air. i'm not sure of the temperature because i have never done it. another way is to make a
saturated solution of NaClO3 and electrolise it with graphite (use graphite because it won't react with the gasses made and will
yield a purer product) electrodes for a week. then evaporate the water and convert to KClO4 in a similar to how way you made
your KClO3.

Graphit only works in a chlorate cell. For a perchlorate cell you need platinum (or ruthenium, iridium, osmium, rhodium and the
other one which I can't remember could also probably be used. I expect gold would work too), or lead dioxide coated ceramic
or graphite. If you have a graphite rod, you can use electrolysis to coat it with PbO2 in a soln. of Pb(NO3)2 with a bit of soap
to give it a better surface and make it adhere better to the graphite. That's all I can remember about the process. It won't last
long (maybe one reaction or two could be expected), but it's easy to make.
J August 10th, 2001, 02:07 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't car batteries use Pb02 coated electrodes? I seem to remember reading that the electrode
changed composition as the battery was charged/discharged.
------------------
Download the forum archive from my yahoo briefcase (http://uk.y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/thejuiceuk/lst?.dir=/
&.src=bc&.view=l)

yer thats right. a completely CHARGED car battery should have a positive electrode made completely of PbO2. the negative
electrode being a lead/antimony alloy.

That's right. I'll have a look to see if I can find an old car battery some place.
Wedge August 10th, 2001, 10:18 PM

Titanium or tantalum works as well
tmp November 25th, 2003, 04:54 AM

Go with the electrolysis method for KClO4. Graphite is cheap. I use a car battery
charger set at 6 volts and 15 amps. It's slower but be patient. At the lower
voltage your graphite rods won't deteriorate as quickly because the temperature
stays down. I produce all the KClO4 I need this way.
BTW, titanium metal deteriorated within 30 minutes. I'll try manganese dioxide next.
I just need a way to press it into rods.
Guerilla November 25th, 2003, 05:45 AM

Graphite anodes cannot be used for electrolyzing perchlorates as they start to erode(oxidize) quickly after the chloride
concentration drops down to a point where the production of perchlorate starts. Has anyone successfully used magnetite
anodes in chlorate/perchlorate cells? I've used 0.5x100mm Pt-wire with success, but I'm not satisfied with the low current
(~3A) and thus slow production rate that such a small wire gives..

Guerilla, I forget now where I found this on the web, but read on:
Making chlorate and perchlorate

This file has two parts... the first is predominantly about KClO4, and the second about KClO3. Both were taken from the net,
original sources unknown.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAKING POTASSIUM PERCHLORATE
This proceedure is a "tried and true" method. Unlike some rec.pyro postings, which are informational, or just plain speculative,
this proceedure WORKS. I have used it myself to make my own supply of perchlorate - until I decided to quit because I was
making it far too fast to use.
This proceedure works well to make chlorates as well. The proceedure can be modified easily to make only chlorates. When
using this proceedure to make perchlorate, it produces significant amounts of chlorate as a by-product. This is because carbon
rods are not highly efficient in converting chlorate to perchlorate. Other anodes work better, but this proceedure was designed
using easily available common materials and supplies. --- Author
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carbon Rods
Get some carbon rods from the welding shop. They are made by "arcair", and are 3/8" diameter by 12" long, and cost between
40 to 60 cents(US) each. They are copper plated, and they are used for a welding proceedure known as "gouging".
Cut off the top of a plastic 1 gallon milk jug. This is a good cheap source of containers for using in this proceedure.
Dissolve 1/2 cup of salt in 2 liters of warm water. Put this in a small plastic container. Cut out a piece of coffee can, roughly 4"
by 4" with a tab extending up to connect a wire to. The dimensions are not critical. With a 6 volt battery charger, connect the
minus (-) connector to the piece of coffee can. Wrap some aluminum foil on the end of the carbon rod, to improve the
electrical connection, and connect the plus (+) connector of the charger to it.
Turn on the charger, and let it run for about 20 minutes. The copper will be removed from the rod. If some still remains, run it
for a little longer till it is free of copper.
Discard the salt water used to remove the copper.
You can probably use a 12V charger, but the current may get too high, so you may need to reduce how much of the rod is
being etched at one time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electrolyte solution
Make a mixture of salt and potassium chloride solutions. Dissolve roughly 2 ounces (60 grams) of salt, and 8 ounces (240
grams) of potassium chloride in 2 liters (just a bit more than 2 quarts) of hot water. There is much room for inaccuracy here,
because the exact mixture is not absolutely critical.
At this point, it is good to add between 2 to 10 grams of either potassium chromate or dichromate. While this is not absolutely
necessary, it helps improve how much perchlorate is finally produced. The process will work without it, but not quite as well.
NOTE: Potassium chloride can be obtained as several commonly available products, such as: dietary salt substitute, ice melter
(look at label for actual contents), and "muriate of potash" from farm and garden supply shops. Hagenow Laboratories carries
potassium dichromate.
The reason a mixture of salt and KCl is used, is two fold. First, salt is more easily electrolyzed than KCl, but after it converts to
chlorate (and perchlorate), it will tend form the potassium salt instead of the sodium salt. The electrolysis tends to work on the
sodium salt, while the final potassium perchlorate forms, and due to it's poor solubility, tends to crystalize out of solution.
Secondly, the concentration of KCl is chosen to help prevent chlorate from crystalizing out, while being too high for the
perchlorate to remain in solution, which causes it to crystalize out as it is created. These concentrations may be varied, to
compensate for different operating temperatures. It was designed to operate at 40C, and will work fine above that temp, but
below it, you might get some chlorate crysatlizing out, in which case you might need to reduce the amount of KCl just a little.
I have been using a little salt in my mixture, but someone could exclusively electrolyze KCl, without the addition of salt. The
purpose of the salt is to provide a sodium salt which is more easily electrolyzed than the potassium salt. It is NOT necessary,
and will probably work well with only KCl. ****** (Chlorate note) ******
BTW, chlorates are produced here as an intermediate chemical product. Chlorates tend to be the predominant component
around 1 1/2 to 2 days of operation. Chlorate could be caused to crystalize out during electrolysis if the concentration of KCl in
the starting electrolyte solution is increased to nearly saturation (about 21 ounces KCl/ with 2 ounces of salt). Although I have
not concentrated on chlorate production, I would expect that you could actually run it for more than 2 days - possibly up to 4 or
5 days, and keep building up a layer of largely chlorate crystals on the bottom. In that case, I would _GUESS_ that you could
get around 2 pounds of chlorate after 5 days of operation.
Electrolysis
Using a coffee can for a source of steel, cut it out to form an inverted U shaped trough. Insert it in the mixture of salt and KCl
dissolved in water. The (-) connector is connected to the steel. The steel U trough (similar to a rain gutter, except upside
down) is setting at an angle to increase the amount of surface area in contact with the liquid. The carbon rod has some
aluminum foil wrapped around the end of the rod, and the (+) connector is connected to it. The rod is positioned within the U
shaped trough - under it, without touching. The charger is turned on, and he position & depth of the rod is adjusted to get 8 to
12 amps of current.
NOTE: A setup with the electrodes running electricity through an electrolyte is called a "Cell". This setup is commonly refered to
as a cell throughout this description.
Let the liquid electrolyze for about 5 days continuously. Add water to make up for water lost during the process, and try to
keep it roughly constant.
A couple times a day, you will need to check the current level, and adjust the rod position to keep the current in the 8-12amp
range. Mine has been running between 40 - 50C, but commercial proceedures keep the temp just below 40C to reduce carbon
rod errosion. The rods will gradually errode away, but if you use a 6V charger, one rod will probably last for the full 5 days.
You can also use higher voltage chargers, but you will probably need to connect several electrolytic cells together to keep the
voltage accross ONE cell to be about 6 volts. If you use a 12 V charger, you will need 2 cells ( 12V/(6V per cell) = 2cells). If
you connect more than 1 cell in series, you may need to use a voltmeter to check the actual voltage accross each cell -
because it will change depending upon the resistance differences between the cells, which can be adjusted by re-positioning
the rods.
The purpose for the U shaped trough cathode (-) electrode, is to cause the gas bubbles formed to generate a convection flow
up through the trough. This causes the chemical products produced at each electrode to mix and react efficiently. Other
electrode geometries will work, some better, and others worse. The key is to cause the two electrodes to be very close to each
other, and cause the chemical products to mix well to help form chlorate and perchlorates. The WORST case situation is where
the electrodes are on opposite sides of the cell, causing the chlorine gas produced at the anode (+) to tend to bubble and
escape out of solution into the air.
Crystalization
The potassium perchlorate crystalizes out as it electrolyzes. When you're done, you have a mixture of black carbon,
perchlorate, and some chlorate after you drain off the liquid. I generally get a layer of perchlorate crystals about 1 inch
(2.5cm) thick on the bottom, which tends to be about 1 pound.
Cool the liquid in a freezer to help increase the amount of perchlorate that is crystalized out, before draining the electrolyte
liquid. When draining the electrolyte, save it if you want to re-electrolyze it to make even more perchlorate again.
Load the crystals into a filter, and use boiling water to dissolve the perchlorate out. As it filters, the perchlorate forms nice flat
rhombic shaped (almost square) flakes that float out of solution. You watch it as it cools, and watch for chlorate crystals, which
tend to look like clusters of cactus needles. When they start to form (well after the perchlorate has largely crystalized out), you
drain the liquid, and add some room temp water which is to be about 2 - 3 times the volume of the crystals you have in the
container. Shake them, and let it stand overnight to dissolve any chlorate crystals. Then drain, wash (with ice cold water), and
dry the crystals.
NOTE: Coffee filters generally aren't good enough to filter out the black carbon particles. You can load a coffee filter with a
good layer of diatomaceous earth, and then use it to filter the liquid. Diatomaceous earth is used to filter swimming pool
water, and a 10 pound bag can be obtained for less than US$10.00.
You can purify them again by weighing the dried crystals, and adding enough water to dissolve the whole mass as if it was
pure chlorate (i.e. 7g/100ml water)*. Use hot water, and then cool it down to room temp. You might even need to cool get the
perchlorate to begin to crystalize (it seems to super saturate commonly). You might be able to get it started by adding a small
amount of perchlorate dust as crystal seeds - if you have some to start with.. Then wash your crystals (with ICE COLD water),
and dry them. That will help produce a higher purity product of perchlorate. If you want to make a chlorate-free batch of
perchlorate, repeat this process again. It will be essentailly free of chlorate if you double crystalize it, and make certain you
wash the crystals several times with cold water.
Example: 100 grams of crystals would require 100grams/(7gm/100ml) = 14.3 (100 ml), or 1430 ml of water, or about 48
ounces.
NOTE: When harvesting the crystals, a cotton cloth makes a good filter. I wear rubber gloves, and squeeze the excess liquid
from the crystals before & during washing them. Squeezing helps remove additional contaminants which are dissolved in the
liquid that wouldn't otherwise be removed by simple gravity filtering. While this method loses very small crystaline particles,
the loss tends to be very small in comparison to the amount of crystals harvested.
Perchlorate is very easy to make, but it takes a little work. The hardest ingredient to get is patience.
WARNINGS
This proceedure generates small amounts of chlorine gas, as well as hydrogen gas. It should be conducted outdoors, or in a
well ventilated building which is NOT used for living quarters! Hydrogen can accumulate in non-ventilated and sealed rooms to
form potentially explosive mixtures with air!! Chlorine generally is more of a irritant, but can be poisonous at high
concentrations. There are also other (?) chlorine oxides and/or ozone produced which should also be avoided.
Chlorates and perchlorates are NOT chemicals for playing!! They are serious oxidizing agents which can be used to make VERY
DANGEROUS pyrotechnic mixtures - _ESPECIALLY CHLORATES_ !!! Be certain to read up on all litterature describing the use and
dangers of these compounds! It is VERY EASY to forget the safety hazards associated with these oxidizers in a time of haste -
and lose a limb or your life as a result of your forgetfulness! Be careful to clean up any oxidizer which is spilled on carpets, or
solutions which have spilled or splashed on any form of flamable material, including clothes, wood, paper, etc.
CHLORATES ARE ESPECIALLY FRICTION AND SHOCK SENSITIVE! PERCHLORATES CAN ALSO PRESENT THE SAME HAZARDS, BUT
NOT AS BADLY AS CHLORATES!
ALSO, AVOID THE DISASTEROUS MIXTURE OF CHLORATE WITH SULFUR. NEVER MIX EITHER OF THESE WITH ANY FORM OF
PHOSPHORUS, AS IT CAN IGNITE OR EXPLODE BY THE FRICTION OF SIMPLY MIXING THEM!!!!!
Also, chlorates must be kept from any form of acids, especially sulfuric. Even small traces of acids (from the presence of
sulfur, etc) can cause what "appeared" to be a stable mixture, to ignite at some unknown time later!
I can honestly say it works for me. Your call !

You can also use Sodium or Ammonium Peroxydisulfate (Persulfate) sold in electronics stores for etching PCB's, it will directly
oxidise ClO3- to ClO4-, although i haven't tried it personally
Ollie Snowie November 26th, 2003, 01:34 PM

Wouter talked about this on his page, and he got poor results, from either or both of the following:-
The persulfate in PCB etcher is diluted a lot.
The reaction gives a low yield.
It sounds like electrolysis is the best method, because persulfates are produced by electrolysis in the first place.
Also, don't use ammonium persulfate with a chlorate, because the nasty ammonium chlorate could form.
I tried electrolysing a tiny amount of very conc. salt solution at ~2amps, with Pt electrodes, until the water had boiled off from
the heat produced. Some of it got onto my trousers and bleached them very quickly (lots of sodium hypochlorite). I'm sure
this could be thermally decomposed to sodium perchlorate and then double decomposed with KCl. Otherwise, it could be
electrolysed until the low temperatures of the next ice age/heat death of the universe forces it to stop, and then double
decomposed with KCl. (just think about it, you might end being the last person to posess salt crystals before the big crunch) :)
Guerilla November 26th, 2003, 04:04 PM

tmp, I'm still quite impressed if that electrolysis yields that much perchlorate as the author claims.. It has been said to yield
very little or no perchlorate in many places, and recognizing KClO4 merely by a crystal shape isnt quite the best way as it may
vary depending on purity and other factors..but then again I have never tried this by myself with graphite anodes.. Have you
determined the chlorate content of the final product? One good method was to add a few drops of conc H2SO4 on a pile of
impure KClO4 and sugar (1:1 ratio), IIRC it will only ignite if there's more than some 5% of chlorate present.
Tuatara November 26th, 2003, 05:04 PM

This (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/chlorate/leaddiox/jes1958.html) is really interesting. About half
way down the page they show the increase in current efficiency from adding some persulfate to the electrolyte - its almost
doubled! This is particularly attractive as persulphates are much easier to come by than NaF, and nowhere near as nasty.
This is for lead dioxide anodes, not graphite ones.
Ollie, if persulphates are produced by electrolysis too, would that mean we could simply add a bit of sodium sulphate to the
electrolyte and have it converted in situ to the persulphate? Maybe thats a dumb question, as thats probably exactly how the
increase in efficiency occurs - sulphate -> persulphate
persulphate + chlorate -> sulphate + perchlorate
On another note, the processes for producing lead dioxide anodes often mention the use of non-ionic surfactants to prevent
pinholes in the anode. I've found an OTC source for the surfactant. Yates make a product called 'Sprayfix', its a wetting agent
for use with garden sprays to make the spray stick to the plants. It contains "non-ionic sufactant : 50g/l alkylaryl polyglycol
ether" according to the label, so I going to give it a whirl with the next anode I make. You should be able to find the same or
similar products in your local garden store - look for anything described as a wetting or sticking agent.
Ollie Snowie November 27th, 2003, 02:35 AM

Yep, I think that is the reason why adding a persulfate or sulfate increases efficiency. I was going to post this, but I thought it
would contaminate the perchlorate too much. I suppose it could be used in trace amounts and purified by fractional
crystalisation. I think NaF increases efficiency by a different mechanism; it forms a layer around the cathode that stops
perchlorate being reduced to chloride at the cathode. In some cells sodium dichromate is required - Check Wouter's page.
Something else to try:- Persulfuric acid is also made with sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide, so maybe chlorates could be
oxidised with hydrogen peroxide and sulfuric acid as a catalyst.

Guerilla, I did perform the acid test. No flareup occured. I ran my cell until the
electrolysis was almost nil. The problem with the graphite erosion seems to be
directly related to the heat produced. So I kept the rods far apart to keep the
heat down. Also, potassium dichromate does help the reaction along.
The perchlorate crystalizes out pretty fast as it is considerably less soluble
than the chlorate. Wouter claims that perchlorate formation doesn't start
until the percent of chloride, by weight, drops below 10%. This may be the
reason the method works because the solution starts out at just over 14%.
I altered the method and started at 9% which kicks in the reaction faster if
Wouter is correct. My anode and cathode are both graphite rods. The cathode
showed no sign of erosion although the anode did eventually erode.
I'm still going ahead with plans to use manganese dioxide to see how well
it performs. The reason I don't use a metal cathode is because I hate cleaning
out the voluminous iron hydroxide that forms from eroding steel.
These are the solubility ranges I found in CRC 52nd Edition 1971 - 1972
Solubility is grams per 100 ml water:
KCl----------34.7g @ 20 C--------56.7g @ 100 C

KClO3--------7.1g @ 20 C--------57.0g @ 100 C
KClO4--------.75g @ 0 C--------21.8g @ 100 C
Tuatara November 27th, 2003, 05:28 AM

The required amount of persulphate is between 1g/l and 10g/l. Thats less than 1% contamination by sulphate.
tmp February 22nd, 2004, 12:28 PM

Testing for presence of chlorate in a perchlorate cell.
In addition to flareup tests, I found this on the net

and it works extremely well.
1 gram of indigo carmine is dissolved in a litre of water.

Indigo carmine is expensive(found some on eBay) no
matter where you buy it but 1 gram provides for a lot
of testing.
Boil 1 ml of the indigo carmine solution with 5 ml of some

concentrated HCl(the 31% stuff from the hardware store
works). Add 5 ml of the electrolyte from the perchlorate.
5 ppm of chlorate will cause the indigo to change color.
Even 1 ppm causes a color change.
T_Pyro February 22nd, 2004, 10:38 PM
Regarding tests for Chlorates, Perchlorates, chlorites, and hypochlorites, you should see this (http://www.geocities.com/
CapeCanaveral/Campus/5361/chlorate/tests.html). Very informative!
Regarding anodes:
The GSLD (Graphite substrate lead dioxide) anodes seem the most promising, but for obtaining a low current density with a
high current, a large surface area of the anode is required. Therefore, I was wondering if aluminium tubes could be used as
the substrate instead of the graphite. The advantages are numerous- with two surfaces (inner and outer) to a tube, the
surface area is practically doubled, and aluminium tubes are quite cheap, too. Has anybody tried something similar? If so,
what were the results like?
tmp February 24th, 2004, 04:27 PM

T_Pyro, my apologies for not giving credit where it is due. The link you
posted is EXACTLY where I got that information. The manganous sulphate/
phosphoric acid test is the most sensitive IIRC but the procedure is a pain in
the ass. The other tests, other than indigo carmine, are not as sensitive or
require the use of sulphuric acid which I do not like to part with. H2SO4 is
too valuable for other uses. The indigo test is cheaper overall and is
sensitive down to 1 ppm chlorate. This is more than sufficient for my
perchlorate production. I paid 24.00 USD for 50 grams of indigo carmine.
Considering that the solution is only 1 gram per litre of water and only 1 ml
of solution is needed for the test it's relatively cheap.
As for using aluminum tubes, the electrolysis might oxidize and therefore
passivate them rather quickly if any of the electrolyte gets through the
PbO2 coating. I've been using graphite rods kept at a distance to slow
down the inevitable erosion, however it's possible my local source of these
cheap rods may dry up due to less and less use by professional arc welders
as gouging rods. I'm still looking for a way to produce a solid rod of PbO2
that won't erode so quickly. I've used Ti, TiO2, MnO2, and PbO2 to produce
rods but the electrolysis still tears them up. I sure as hell don't want to go
the route of platinum because it would cheaper to just buy the KClO4 at
that point !
T_Pyro February 27th, 2004, 11:22 PM

That's odd, I was under the impression that lead dioxide coated anodes were quite inert. How thick was your lead dioxide
coating? Were there any visible holes in the lead dioxide layer? It's also possible that your graphite anodes weren't being
rotated at a high enough angular velocity while depoisition of the coating, to prevent pitting.
tmp February 28th, 2004, 12:10 AM

I honestly don't know how thick the PbO2 was on my rods but the anode
eroded albeit at a slower rate than an uncoated rod. I've found other info on
substrates that may work without the erosion. Another net source has
suggested using plastic surface with plumbers cement and to roll the rods in the
PbO2 obtaining a relatively thick coat. I tried using a porcelain substrate
however the electrolyte crawls up the rod and corrodes the connections.
Looks like plastic will be my next test.
HarmonyWave June 4th, 2004, 09:17 AM

Regarding the addition of dichromate-addition to raise efficiancy.
Could one instead add another, less dangerous, chemical with the same effect? Perhaps KMnO4?
Thanks.
tmp June 4th, 2004, 03:25 PM

HarmonyWave, I've never seen info on potassium permanganate being used
for perchlorates. BTW, how did you determine it is less dangerous than
the dichromate ?
HarmonyWave June 4th, 2004, 05:11 PM

tmp, meant to say 'less dangerous to ones health'. Actually i remember reading about a person who used KMnO4 in his
electrolyte, but i cant seem to find the reference in all my mess :/ I could be wront though.
But if no-one from this forum have heard about it, i guess it is false anyway...+
Zeitgeist June 5th, 2004, 12:45 PM

Dichromate is carcinogenic, as i'm sure we all know.
KMnO4 is also alot easier to come by
Bugger August 20th, 2004, 11:22 PM

KMnO4 is also a more powerful aqueous oxidant than chromate or dichromate; although not as powerful as plumbate,
bismuthate, cerium tetranitrate, hypochlorite, or chlorite, or gaseous Cl2 (and of course F2 and high-valence fluorides).
Perchlorate is also a potentially powerful oxidant, but it is kinetically slow, which enables the existence of ammonium
perchlorate and organic perchlorate esters, although they are highly explosive.
Bugger.
freaky_frank August 22nd, 2004, 07:14 PM

To get back on the persulfate idea.
It is indeed possible to oxidize KClO3 to KClO4 with potassiumpersulfate, K2S2O8.
Normally this happens when boiling those two chemicals together in solution, but this seems to give bad yields.
Because persulfate contains a peroxidebond there doesn't need to be added a base or an acid according to the redox
theory,actually there does need to be added a base but not as a catalyst this base gets reacted up by the reaction and is thus
not a catalyst.
S2O8 2- + 2e- --> 2SO42-
ClO3- - 2e- --> ClO4-

---------------------------------
S2O82- + ClO3- --> 2SO42- +
ClO4-
left: 3- right: 5-
--> 2OH- ---> H2O
--> S2O82- + ClO3- + 2OH- -->

2SO42- + ClO4- + H2O
--> K2S2O8 + KClO3 + 2KOH --> 2K2SO4 +

KClO4 + H2O
Bugger August 22nd, 2004, 09:39 PM

Have you any data on the kinetics of the peroxydisulfate-chlorate reaction to produce perchlorate? It may explain the "bad
yields". The rate constants for various oxidations by peroxydisulfate, e.g. of iodide, have been quite extensively studied and
measured in the past.
Bugger.
freaky_frank August 24th, 2004, 02:13 PM

Sorry don't have information about that...
FUTI August 26th, 2004, 08:54 AM

peroxodisulphate have one problem it have oxidation potential that is fine for this
reaction, but when it comes to the kinetics...not good because reaction goes faster the less atom movement it takes to
complete it (enthropy almost as big as mine text....focus man:) and when you look that anion you see lot of atoms it can be
promoted sometimes with extremly small quantity of silver ion because it actualy oxidise silver to +2 state that then react with
reductive substance (back to +1) and so on...( if I remember from mine first year chemistry it has to do with silver-
peroxodisulfate complex compound...if ion is already bind before and after reaction not to much bond movement...only
electrons...which makes whole process look very much like electrolysis).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Potassium C hloride
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View Full Version : Potassium Chloride
ddog August 11th, 2001, 02:51 AM

Sorry bout th at last m e s s a g e I p o s t e d , " r o c k e t " b u t s i n c e P o t a s s i u m Chlorate is a o x i d i z e r , d o e s P o t a s s i u m C h l o r i d e h a v e a n y
o x i d izing/explosive properties?

Potassium chloride is inert for pyrotechnic com position,but you can create a violet colored flam e b y d i p p i n g m e t a l n e e d l e i n i t s
solution,and placing in the Bunsen flame.(basic chem istry lesson?).
Indeed that salt was deceiving,when I was still a boy in grade school,and ignorant about p yrotechnics.I was asking older pyro
enthusiast neighbor, about the white p owder that flashe s if he placed a small lum p on burning coal..He told m e .it was just
potassium chloride ,.I was pleased to know because,there was salt of sim ilar level in the medicine cabinet(table salt
replacer).I tried putting a pinch of that m aterial on the coals in the fire place but got no sim ilar result.I repeated it m any
tim e s . T h e r e w a s n o e x p e c t e d f l a s h b u t I b u r n e d m y f i n g e r s i n s t e a d i n t h e s e p r o c e s s a n d scorche d m y no s e t o o .Ironically,
that painful experience,increased my interest o n fireworks and e xplosives .It took m e s o m etim e to realize that ,the powder m y
neig hbor was using is potassium chlorate

o k , p o t a s s i u m chlorid e = KCl, thats potassium and clorine
potassium chlorate = KClO 3, thats potassium , chlorine and oxygen.
the IDE part of Cloride indicates no oxygen atom s.

the ATE part of chlora te indicates 3 oxygen atom s.

the ATE part of chlorate indicates 3 oxygen atom s.
So, according to you, potassiu m sulfate, phosphate, silicate and chrom a t e m o l e c u l e s a l l c o n t a i n 3 o x y g e n a t o m s ?
T h e g e n e r a l r u l e s f o r n a m i n g p o l y a t o m ic anions can be briefly sum marized as follows:

- i d e n o o x y g e n - a t e a c o m m o n form , containing oxygen, as in chlorate ClO 3-, silicate SiO44-, sulfate SO 42- -ite one less oxygen than -ate form , as in chlorite
ClO2-, sulfite SO32-, nitrite NO2- per-, -ate
s a m e charge , but contains one more oxygen than -ate form, as in perchlorate C lO4-, perbrom ate
BrO4- hypo-, -ite same charge, but contains one less oxygen than the -ite form , as in hypochlorite
ClO-, hypobromite BrO - thio- ~ repla ce an O with an S, as in thiosulfate S2O32-, thiosulfite S2O22 -

ooops sorry!!!
big m istake hey?...sorry. i forgot about the other ates and ides...sorry again!!!!
thanks for correcting m e http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by kin gspaz (edited August 11, 2001).]

Thanx alot for the info. I heard that potassium chlorate is really unstable, would Potassium perchlorate be the next best thing?
Its for flash powder. BTW , what comm o n n a m e s i s P o t a s s i u m perchlorate known as in superm arkets and such?

ddog, I think you should really really start searching this forum and the Internet for info, questions about subjects that have
b e e n d i s c u s s e d 1 0 0 t i m e s m a y be tolerated on W eirdpier (this ensures they have 1000's "worth" o f posts there) but not here.
And no, you cannot buy KClO 4 in any superm arket in th e world (except p ossibly some illegal cover installation for terrorist and
weapons dealer use...)

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > R adiator sealant??
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View Full Version : Radiator sealant??
Kdogg January 9th, 2002, 11:33 PM

I have about seven tubes of this stuff. Its alum inum powder & som e sort of glue I believe. Now for obvious reasons it canno t
be water soluble. But what about Aceto ne? I would like to try to remove it & ball m ill it. Also how exactly is alum inum powder
m a d e ? I k n o w its not just a bunch of p eople taking files to giant chunks of alum inum . Is it some sort of electrosis?
FadeToBlackened January 9th, 2002, 11:41 PM

I believe ball m illing is usually used fo r making Al powd er, though care is required because once exposed to oxygen, Al will
form a protective layer of Al2O3. If it forms this layer re ally fast, you get fire. Or so Ive heard
vulture January 10th , 2 0 0 2 , 1 2 : 3 5 P M

Yep, Al is obtained by electrolysis.
W hen balmilling Al you should take care when opening your ballm ill cause m etalpowders can get pyrophoric after balm illing
which means they can ignite spontaneously. Th i s c a n t a k e s o m e tim e, it's possible that it ignites a fter 5min or longer under
fresh air exposure.
If your radiator sealant looks really grey and acts more like a solid then a liquid, you probably won't have to remove the glue if
you're going to use it for some long burning com position like a flare i think.
Try if it's flamm a b l e .
SATA NIC March 13th, 2002, 02:27 AM

If it is produced originally, the n why not make it that wa y?
W hat materials would you use , and what sort of return would you expect, using say, a 12 volt, 4 amp battery charger?
[thinking back to year 12 chem ]
I have no idea. i suppose, if it's possible, you could electrolyse som e form a sim ple solution. the solution would be easy to
m a k e , s a y H C l or H2SO4 or even caustic soda, and aluminium cans.
once it's electrolysed out, it would already be quite small, hence not m u c h b a l l m i l l i n g n e e d e d .
also, i think you just have to add oil to the Al b efore you start to ball mill. This co ats the Al, so without contact with the air, it
can't get the POL - Protective O xide Layer.
I a m still looking for som e decent chem texts, the ones we used in school were great, but $50 bucks a pop AUSD each. (2 in
t h e s e t ) s o m eday.....

Oy! now you just take that charger som e thick welders gloves an d two AL rods now attach the charger to the rods and rub the
ends together in a tub of oil (silicone or olive) as it will not allow oxidation, simple really.
nbk2000 March 13th, 2002, 03:52 AM

It's not as easy as you guys think it is....

Like NBK said it's not so sim ple. The electrolys is carried out in large tanks with the walls and botto m is covered with carbon. In
that tank they heat Al2O3 with som e cryolite, I dont rem enber the exact com position but it's added to lower the melting point
of the Al2O3.
Then they insert 2 carbon rods, catode -anode, into the m elted Al2O3 and a high (V) current is turned on. T h e p u r e a l u m i n i u m
falls out and is extracted from a hole in the bottom .
I know this b ecause I did a ch emestry work on this last term. Th is is an industrial process and it would be very difficult to carry
out at hom e since it recuires very high tem peratures.
VX March 13th, 2002, 07:33 AM

I thought that the lining of the container itself acted as the cathode, and the electrodes in serted into the m ix were all anode s?

B e c a u s e I s a id it was electrolysis, i didn't mean you could do it in a cup of tea!
T o g e t b a c k o n t o p i c , s e p a r a t i n g c o u l d b e d o n e by dissolving the glue in a proper solvent.

W hat kind of glue is it? Does it behave m ore like a gel, silicon, or m o r e l i k e p a p e r g l u e ?

I have some radiator sealant, it's old but I thin k it might stil be the same. It's not a gel o r something like that (atleast m ine's
not) it's more of a low density powder, you can se it's Al in it but there's som e white flakes in it as well I think it's some kind d
of dry "glue" that starts acting like like a glue first when it's wet.
BrAiNFeVeR March 13th, 2002, 01:21 PM

I've seen the radiator sealant glue too , but when I tested it, I noticed it burnt (the glue / solvent) with the kind of flame you
would expect from a solvent, dark yellow flame / black sm oke. I never saw any signs of Al bunring along
So,
a) There is n ot enough Al in it to be actually usable (at a reasonable price)
b)The Al is just coarse enough so it wo n't burn along with the solvent, som eone try letting someburn out co m p l e t e l y , a n d t h e n
see if there is any Al-powder between the charred rem ains ...
But if it is that coarse, I doubt it will be usable in pyro com ps.

Good luck in experimenting for all those who do not have a source of Al-powder ...
Bitter March 13th, 2002, 03:35 PM

I believe that alum inium powder is ma nufactured by m elting pure aluminium and then 'blasting' a steady tricle of it into a
chamber using a jet of compressed, inert gas, thus turn ing the liquid into a fine powder, just as an aerosol turns the liquid in
the can into a fine m ist when it comes out of the nozzle . This powder is then collected at the bottom and seived into various
sizes.
At least that's how I think it's produced (industrially).

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > where can i get fuse in denm a r k
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View Full Version : where can i get fuse in denmark
zikzee January 10th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 3 3 P M

do anyone know where to get fuse in denmark ?....
pyro c o m p a n ys say they need a perm it
kingspaz January 10th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 6 : 3 1 P M

z i k z e e , s h o u l d y o u r e ally be in this pla ce? surely if you'd made any effort to read and learn and IMPROVISE then you wouldn't
h a v e m a d e t h e m ista ke which is this thread.
zikzee January 10th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 7 : 1 3 P M

I have read the forum a n d I w a n t t o u s e p r o f e s s i o n a l f u s e t o b e s a f e , a s h o m e m a d e f u s e not has a constant burn rate.
And this post is directed to Da n e s w h o h a v e b o u g h t f u s e i n D e n m a r k .
the freshmaker January 11th , 2002, 10:02 AM

well, I don't think you would have any succes, since there isn't as far as I know any Danes here on the Forum! Exept me! :)
(ud over m ig !! jeg er sikker p at du ikk kan f fat i nogle lunter, da man ska ha ve special tilladelse da lunter er klassificeret
s o m eksplosiv stof!)
(English ONLY fellas! You wish to talk in your native tongue, do so via e-m ail. NBK2000)
[ J a n u a r y 1 1 , 2 0 0 2 : M e s s a g e e d i t e d b y : n b k 2 0 00 ]
Microtek January 12th , 2002, 11:11 AM

I'm Danish a s well.
By p rinciple, I've never bought anything that would arou se suspicion, but fuses ca n be im provised quite safely with a little
thought.
Ctrl_C January 12th , 2 0 0 2 , 1 0 : 2 0 P M

ok, i doubt it's legal to send fuse through the mail but what happens if you do? if custom s siezes it, do the y just take it and
destroy it and say "I guess whoever this is going to doe snt get it", or do they actually track down the sender?
If so, how would they track down the sender if there was no return address? they m ight track it down to the nearest sorting
center, but thousands of pieces of m a i l g o t h r o u g h e v e n a s m all center per day, m a y b e h u n d r e d s o f t h o u s a n d s f o r a l a r g e r
one. som eone enlighten me.
Riot January 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 2 : 0 4 P M

They would probally talk to the person who it was getting sent to and ask him why and from who he is getting sent the fuse.
Depending on if they thought it was a threat

Customs will only intercept it if it comes in the box from the m anufacture r with all international safety regulations and hazard
symbols printed very thick on it.
Sure as hell when the y see the fireworks classification 1.x G :rolleyes:
I f y o u h a v e s o m e o n e who cou ld put it in another box before it passes through customs, then there's a chance of 1 out of 100
they'll find it.
BTW , would explosive detectors detect pyrotechnical compositions in sm all am ounts or do they only detect HE?
ENGINEERKILLER January 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 4 3 P M

The swipe test and th e dog will both pick up on pyro especialy if it has any type of perchlorate in it .
Arkangel January 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 4 : 2 2 P M

In his book "Mr Nice", dope smuggler extraordinaire Howard Stern talks about som ething the dope m anufacturers use to foil
doggies. They seal the "stuff" in a container and then wash it thoroughly in a petrol bath. Its then taken elsewhere to be
s e a l e d i n s i d e a n o t h e r c o n t a i n e r a n d w a s h e d i n a s e p e r a t e b a t h , b e f o r e b e i n g d o n e a g a i n s o m ewhere else. Dont know how
effective it would be for pyro, and its a lot to ask of som e o n e e lse to do. So eith er you send it fro m s o m e w h e r e y o u a r e
visiting personally and go through all that shit, or send m ore than you need in different consignm ents, accepting that som e will
be seized. (I think this was talked abo ut in another thread, only about sending Glock parts to Oz)
Anthony January 13th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 7 : 2 6 P M

I doubt that they use explosive detection on every item of m ail, there's just so m uch!
Coiled up, fu se fits nicely in an A4 pad d e d e n v e l o p e . T h e c h a n c e s o f t h e m thinking it's suspicious is remote. Just think how
m any really odd items the people who sit there e v e r y d a y h a v e s e e n .

Like anthony says, fu se is easy concealable, i doubt there's perchlorate in a fuse and if, the small quantities would require very
thorough checking.
I f y o u h a v e s o m e o n e who can put it in an enve l o p e t h e n h e r e ' s a n i d e a :

Put the fuse in the envelope together with othe r fibres in different colors of the same leng h t a n d d i a m e t e r ( a p p r o x . ) .
W rite the return adress of a clothes/textiles com p a n y o n t h e e n v e l o p t o g ether with their com p a n y s y m b o l a nd put "SAMPLE" or
"SPECIMEN" on it... :D
DBSP January 14th , 2 0 0 2 , 0 3 : 0 4 P M

If you want fuse then you m ig ht be able to order it from sweden.
<a href="http://www.pyrosm alandskrutbruk.se/" target="_blank">http://www.pyrosm alandskrutbruk.se/</a>
I belive they sell to other cuntries but sweden since you can order an english version of their catalog for 3US$.
I dont know about shipping prices. I bought fuse from them e at the factory just b efore new year. It's waterproof and work very
well and burn at a rate of 2m in/m eter.

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r
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View Full Version : Smokeless powder

I h a v e s e a r c h e d t h e f o r u m for answers on this so dont reply with learn how to sea rch or so mething like that. What is
s m o keless powder, and what ingredients are in it? Is it flash powder, BP? I know this is a little under your g uyses level, srry.

For your own benefit,I will explain to you in sim ple way.The ordinary black powder when ignited produces so m uch sm o k e
which will make old tim e m uskets firing, visible from a distance.Guns of the last century and until now uses a propellant which
is different form the old gunpowder.,Upon firing a gun using amm unition filled with sm okeless powder,you will notice less
s m o k e c l o u d , o r t h e s m oke is light,thin and not visible f r o m t h e d i s t a n c e . S o f o r o r d i n a r y p e r s o n i t a p p e a r s s m o k e l e s s if he is
accu stom e d t o s e i n g t h e s m oke from black powder fired guns.For its formulation it is basically nitrated cellulose with
stab ilizers.Flash powder are different a nd m ore sim ilar to the black powder in formulation ,but it co ntains
chlorates,alum inum ,sulfur etc.depending upon the form ula.The black powder contains potassium nitrate,sulfur and charcoal.Try
r e a d i n g T h e p a s t F o r u m posts and replies,other files, books etc,and you will find valuable inform ation that will satisfy your
curiosity.Just be delig ent on reading and be careful if you do experim ents.You will be come pyro literate in due tim e....

thanx that helps

If you dont find it by searching the forum u s e a s e a r c h e n g i n e I t y p e d i n " d o u b l e b a s e p o w d e r " i n m y search engine just to see
how many related pages would com e u p a n d t h e n u m ber was over 56,000!
heres a coup l e g o o d o n e s t o g o t o
http://www.friends-partners.org/m wade/articles/doulants.htm
e x p l a i n s t h e h i s t o r y o f d o u b l e b a s e p o wder and its use in rocketry by NASA
http://www.reloadbench.com /burn.htm l
explains different powder shapes and has a good burn rate chart
simply RED August 14th, 2001, 04:46 PM

W ell, i saw the double base propellant containing 50% NG. Is it solid of plastic, i think it m ust be litte plastic. I've m i x e d N C
and NG(i've used m ore NG than NC) and they h ave form ed plastic m ix after plasticizing with acetone and evaporatin g the
acetone. I've never seen double base powder industrial production...Is it completely solid? O r it is slightly plastic? How it keeps
the NG in it and it don't make the surfaces wet with NG(m y plastics put on paper made it slightly wet of NG). Are they solid
because the NG quantity is low?
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y s i m ply RED (edited August 14, 2001).]
cutefix August 14th, 2001, 09:56 PM

This is a typical form ula for double-base propellant from t h e U S P a t e n t 4 , 4 1 6 , 7 1 2 :
50.4% nitrocellulose (12.6% nitrogen)
38.1% nitrog lycerin
6.1% diethyldiphenylurea
5.1% ethylphenylurethane
0.3% wax.
A prepared m ixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin co ntaining also about 20 we ight-percent of water was m i x e d t o g e t h e r
uniformly with the rest of components in a W erner & Pfleiderer kneader for at least one hour. The m a s s w a s t h e n p a s s e d t h r e e
tim e s t h r o u g h a d i s k k n e a d e r . T h e n t h e m aterial was twice granulated in a granulating screw press, and the granule s were than
dried in a hot air current at 60 .degree. C. for 12 to 15 h ours. The granules thus treated were extruded in a dual screw
extrusion press to a m aterial in strand form .
For m o r e d e t a i l s a b o u t d o u b l e - b a s e p r o p e l l a n t c o m positons check US Patent 4,251,261.
Hope this will satisfy your question....

Are the dieth ylediphenylurea and ethylphenylurethane flash reducing agents, corrosion inhibitors or stabilisers for the NC? I'm
just wondering of wha t could b e u s e d i n a h o m e - m a d e v e r s i o n .
Bitter August 15th, 2001, 12:55 PM

How about diphenylam ine ? W ould that work ?

Yes, it'd probably have similar effects. But where d'ya get that from ? I was trying to think of som ething a bit more com m on!

Diethyldiphenylurea or ethyl centralite is the nitrocellulose stabilizer.Ethyl phenylurethane is a plasticizer/binder.For m ore info
a b o u t t h e p u rpose of stabilize r check this out: http://www.cinadra.com .br/propella ntstabilizers.htm
I think its difficult to find an alternative easy to obtain replacement for hom e m anufacture of sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r .
simply RED August 16th, 2001, 06:27 AM

Really good info!http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif
W ill 4-5% C entralite reduce th e power of detonating gelatin(95%NG 5%NC)?
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y s i m ply RED (edited August 16, 2001).]

Plain old urea will mop up NOx, so perhaps this would have at le ast som e stabilising effect on the NC ?

A d d i n g n o n e x p l o s i v e m aterial at acertain level will redu ce the explosive power ,but at few percent it will be hardly noticeable
unle ss you m easure its detonation velocity and compare it with the unstabilized m aterial.Besides blasting gelatin is already
very powerfu l.
I f i n d t h a t u r e a h a d s o m e e f f e c t , b u t t h e s e m aterial tends to dim inish propellant burn rate.It is less effective than its
derivatives(centralite) and dip h e n y l a m ine so I think the adding rate will need t o be highe r .

Most powder used in shot shells is dou b l e b a s e d, I believe. Get a pound of Bullseye sm o k e l e s s p o wder-the d o u b l e b a s e d
shotgun variety-put it in a large pipe a nd DETO NATE it with a blasting cap. The po wer is awesome. Don't even bother lighting it
with a fuse.
Originally posted by sim ply RED:

W ell, i saw the double base propellant containing 50% NG. Is it solid of plastic, i think it m ust be litte plastic. I've m i x e d N C
and NG(i've used m ore NG than NC) and they h ave form ed plastic m ix after plasticizing with acetone and evaporatin g the
acetone. I've never seen double base powder industrial production...Is it completely solid? O r it is slightly plastic? How it keeps
the NG in it and it don't make the surfaces wet with NG(m y plastics put on paper made it slightly wet of NG). Are they solid
because the NG quantity is low?
[ T h i s m e s s a g e h a s b e e n e d i t e d b y s i m ply RED (edited August 14, 2001).]

The Explosives and W eapons Forum > En ergetic Materials > Other Explosives > Damn guys
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View Full Version : Damn guys

J e s u s a l l o f t h e m e s s a g e s i v e p u t o n t h i s p l a c e , s o m e o n e h a s c o m e back with som e s m art ass rem ark. I just now found the
tiny barely visible search button, m ayb e you sh ould make it BIGGER . Im new, cant you see that all I wanted was for someon e
to answer m y f*cking question? No offense to anyone but this is bull shit and im finding a new place to get my info, m a y b e
theyll have a little respect for new people. You m ight as well not waste tim e typing anything back, because Im n o t g o n n a c o m e
back here ever.

Now you've found the search function you won't have to ask any shit questions that get yo u flam ed.
Newbies are respected because they often full of shit. Newbies that are worth having as m e m bers obey the rules, keep their
h e a d s d o w n a n d b e c o m e r e s p e c t e d m e m bers.
I know you will com e back and read this topic b ecause the temptation to see how much trouble you caused will be too great.

Ya ur right, srry. can u delete this thing? I know u probly wont just so everyone sees this and laughs and stuff, but yea I will
search now a nd not ask questions for a while.
richl261 August 13th, 2001, 01:22 PM

You might as well not waste tim e t y p i n g a n y t h i n g b a c k , b e c a u s e I m n o t g o n n a c o m e back here ever.
N o o f f e n s e t o a n y o n e but this is bull shit and im finding a new place to get my info
H a v e f u n a t Q u e e r P i e r http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilie s/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by richl261 (edited August 13, 2001).]
J August 13th, 2001, 02:30 PM

T h i s m essage is for all potential newbies: If you want to learn here, you play by our rules. It m a k e s n o d i f f e r e n c e t o a n y o f t h e
esta blished m embers if you stay or no t, since you m ore than likely won't have an ything to contribute for a while. If you piss us
off, deleting all your posts and banning you takes just a few seconds. Just remem ber that.
------------------
&.src=bc&.view=l)
megalomania August 15th, 2001, 06:04 PM

Y o u c o m e here, challenge our ways, post ridiculous requests, com plain about not getting handed what you want, and then you
h a v e t h e g a l l t o d e m and RESPECT?!? Go ahead and find a new place to sponge off of, you obviously have nothing to contribute
here. I hope you can find that tiny little X on th e top, right of the screen. It is so sm all and hard to see, it m ay strain your
intellectual capacity hunting for it.
This thread will not be deleted, it shall be imm ortalized in the banned for life section.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Lead Nitroanilate
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View Full Version : Lead Nitroanilate
FadeToBlackened August 12th, 2001, 11:36 PM

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried this? It sounds interesting.. Does anyone know the formula for it? I suspect something aromatic, and the anilate part to me suggests
aniline but there is chlorate (no nitrogen whatsoever).

Stupid name if there's no nitrogen!
Ah, I've just read through the method in FEMFEP - I'm guessing that chloranil is a trichloride or chlorate of an aromatic. Then when this is treated with NaNO2 in EtOH it forms
NaCl or NaClO3 and a nitro-compound of the aromatic. I wouldn't have thought that this would work, but it's the only way that I can think of.
Perhaps it's trinitroaniline, but with the H's on the NH2 replaced by a lead ion?
It does sound like good stuff, but yield looks a little disappointing.

Lead Nitranilate
Preparation of Chloranil
A slurry of 5.0 grams of salicylic acid and 100 ml of concentrated

hydrochloric acid was heated to 80 centigrades and 5.0 grams of potassium
chlorate added in portions (with effervescence). An additional 400 ml of
concentrated hydrochloric acid and 5.0 grams potassium chlorate was added
and the mixture allowed to heat at 80-90 centigrades for four hours. After
filtering, washing with water, and air drying, the yellow crystals melted
at 190-200 centigrades (sealed tube). The yield was 5.45 grams.
Preparation of Sodium Nitranilate
A mixture of 5.0 grams of chloranil and 200 ml of ethyl alcohol were heated
to boiling and treated with a solution of 5.6 grams of sodium nitrite in
100 ml of ethyl alcohol. The mixture was heated with stirring for one-half
hour and allowed to cool. The orange-gold crystalline product was collected
on a filter, washed with ethyl alcohol and air dried. Yield was 1.85 grams.
Preparation of Lead Nitranilate
A solution of 1.0 grams of sodium nitranilate in 100 ml of boiling
[ Transcriber's note: I dunno what. A word is missing in the text. I guess it is H2O or maybe C2H5OH. ]
was filtered and the filtrate treated with 2.9 grams of lead nitrate
in 10 ml of water. The mixture was stirred for one-half hour and the gold
platelets collected on a filter and [washed] with water. After drying at 80
centigrades for three hours, the product weighed 1.23 grams. The product
ignited with a loud report on flame contact.
------------------

The structure of lead nitranilate is PbC6N2O8: (-PbO-C6O2(ONO)2-O-)n for the para form and C6O2(ONO)2O2Pb for the ortho and meta form. Chloranil is tetrachloro-
parabenzoquinone!

As I have explained one year ago on alt. engr. explosives:
C6H4(OH)(CO2H) is chlorinated and oxydised into tetrachloroparaquinone C6Cl4O2 or 2,3,5,6 tetrachloro-cyclohexa 2,5diene 1,4 dione O=C(CCl=CCl)2C=O.
THis last one can be converted in a tetranitro compound thanks to NaNO2 (NO2- substitutes to each Cl which are reactive).
Yielding NaCl and O=C(CNO2=CNO2)2C=O or tetranitroparaquinone.
THis later substance can be subject to partial hydrolyse and generate phenolic form (due to aci isomerisation of the Nitro-nitrite parts and due to the resonance of paraquinone
with para dihydroxybenzene).
You thus have a mix of tetranitroparahydroxybenzene and tetraquinonic form plus some weird trinitodicetohydroxycompounds generating all sensitive salts (phenates or
nitronates)
Pb(O2C6(NO2)4)...
------------------
FadeToBlackened September 16th, 2001, 07:16 PM

Hmm.. well.. I wasnt even on here 1 year ago http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif but thanks for the info.

The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Energetic Materials > Other Explosives > Tetrameric!?!
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View Full Version : Tetrameric!?!
Fallout85 November 3rd, 2001, 02:58 PM

I was searching on google for info about ap and found a Chinese chemical manufacturer or something like that with info on
"Tin Chloride Catalysed Oxidation of Acetone with Hydrogen Peroxide to Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide". Unfortunatley you have
to pay to get the information but it sounds promising and I'm sure some of the people here could figure out the details on
their own. I'm guessing that the tetrameric polymer would be stronger and more stable that is why I posted it here. The
website is http://www.rsc.org/is/journals/current/jcr/jc999004.htm Just scroll down to #288.
edit-removed period from url address
------------------
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." -Bruce Campbell, Army of Darkness.
[This message has been edited by Fallout85 (edited 11-18-2001).]
CodeMason November 3rd, 2001, 06:47 PM

Just a thought, it would probably be what HMX (this tetramer?) is to RDX (TCAP).
------------------
oxyrad November 16th, 2001, 08:21 PM

Like the website.
The part on hth/naphtha does it really work?have you tried it?how did you set it of?

Thanks, I have a friend that used to live way over in Perth. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I'll try
HTH+Naphtha when I get more calcium hypochlorite.
------------------
nbk2000 November 17th, 2001, 07:42 PM

Fallout, the link you posted is 404'd.
They probably noticed all these hits on an explosive chemical procedure coming from a forum called "weapons and
explosives". Wonder what that's all about. ;)
------------------
Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2ooo) to download the NBK2000 files and videos.
mrloud November 18th, 2001, 05:00 AM

The link appears dead because there is a period at the end of it where there should be none.
I had no trouble downloading the full text PDF. It could have something to do with the "Free For Chemistry Week" I see
mentioned. Download while you can.
I have put this particular file on the FTP site as a_bit_of_info_on_AP.pdf
[This message has been edited by mrloud (edited 11-18-2001).]
Fallout85 November 18th, 2001, 11:37 AM

Well I gues I was right about it being stable. I have some tin chloride in my basement. Maybe I'll try a little experiment this
week. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Tin chloride is pretty easy to make though. If you have tin (very available) and hydrochloric acid (you probably already know
where to find some) then you can make tin chloride. You can also react tin sulfate (I think it's soluble) with sodium chloride.
------------------
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." -Bruce Campbell, Army of Darkness.
[This message has been edited by Fallout85 (edited 11-18-2001).]
rikkitikkitavi November 18th, 2001, 12:47 PM

Tetrameric peroxide means that it has four peroxide bonds http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
What we call AP is normally trimeric peroxide, ergo three peroxide bonds.
It is probably somewhat more stable, since

it forms a larger ring-structure than trimeric AP, hence less tension leading to greater stability of the molecule.
But once a peroxide, always a peroxide.

Read the article, it is very very interesting. Good work!
/rickard
PHILOU Zrealone March 13th, 2002, 12:03 PM

They say they got CTeAP; but they don't mention CTriAP; maybe is it contain as impurity?
Anyway:
(-O-O-C(CH3)2)3 is quite different than
(-O-O-C(CH3)2)4; obviously the higher the polymer weight, the better the stability as I have observed and explained on
alt.engr.explosive one month ago!
Often the power is increased with the density!
Typical example is trimer and tetramer of CH2=N-NO2, known as RDX and HMX!
HMX is a bit more stable (depending on its cristalline form; as expected the more ways to move a ring, the more you have
cristalline forms and densities; each has different sensitivities and properties as explosives)!I can point out that only one
cristalline form of HMX is less sensitive and more powerful than RDX!
Stability increase is due to more ways to dissipate heat by molecular moves (rotation arround linkages); but there can be a
weak point of stress that ruins all this when the cristalline shape change (with T for example)).
I can also say tha RDX is good since it is a 6 membered ring; not too much stress; 5 rings are good too; when you go up, you
never know which allotropic form you handle; you have to test all of them to properly know the stuff you play with!
A good point would be the making of a linear polymer:
(-CH(CH3)3-O-O-)n
this would be more powerful, denser and less sensitive!
PH Z
xoo1246 March 13th, 2002, 01:14 PM

Very interesting, indeed. Maybe a good substitute to the trimeric version.
Yi March 13th, 2002, 01:28 PM

I will be making the tetrameric version once I get some more H2O2.. I only have the SnCl2.2H20 not the SnCl4.5H20, so I will
have to see how effective it will be.
Does anyone have any idea why it is carried out at room temp? I expect the impurities will be mostly dimeric AP because of
the high temperature.
The plan is to make a small quantity of the tetramere aswell as a small quantity of the trimer and compare their power and
sensitivity.
Also has anyone successfully synthesised this yet? Any tips?
PHILOU Zrealone March 13th, 2002, 07:48 PM

I suspect the high heat is there because then more of the tetrameric form more stable at that temperature than the other
forms will form and precipitate while the other forms will remain dissolved! You of course know that low temperature is needed
to precipitate as cristals the CDAP and the CTriAP. The use of this temperature alows easier separation of the different
multimers!
SnCl4 is better choice, I think to remeber it is done by reaction of Cl2 on Sn in the cold, generating a liquid boiling at 114C
and having a density of 2,234 at 20C. It may form cristaline hydrates like SnCl4.5H2O!
Maybe the lack of SnCl4 can be compensated by an little more SnCl2 since they say that SnCl4 is more effective but that they
have kept the concentration low to see there is a catalytic effect.
They also mention the % yield to increase with the amount of SnCl4; maybe is it the same with SnCl2?
PH Z
Yi March 25th, 2002, 04:58 PM

I had a dream about the method used in the pdf:
16ml Acetone (~0.27 mol)

20ml H2O2 30% (fresh)
0.5g SnCl2.2H20
The amount of catalyst was slightly different. Also the method used SnCl4.5H20. As you said i used more than 2mmol of the
catalyst to make up for it (also easier to measure).
The addition of the catalyst should be done very slowly as the reaction is quite vigorous. The solution was stirred constantly for
23 hours and the solution was then filtered. The filtrate is drying right now so i'm not sure about the mass. The yield looks
quite bad, only ~0.5g, but a small amount was also lost due to filtering (the filter got clogged a few times :mad: ).
I'll recrystallise from ether and then weigh.
Yi March 25th, 2002, 06:11 PM

Damnit... extremely low yield.
<a href="http://incoherent.topcities.com/tapyield.jpg" target="_blank">http://incoherent.topcities.com/tapyield.jpg</a>
There was quite alot of water in the clump of crystals, looked like alot more :(
[EDIT: picture link didn't work, changed to url]

[ March 25, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Yi ]
ikbendirk May 18th, 2004, 04:29 PM

I was wondering... is it actually necessairy to wash your TeCAP with NaHCO3? Because the only contamination should be SnCl2
. H2O, which won't be seperated when washed with NaHCO3...
is this still a wise thing to do? or is washing with ethyl alcohol or DeMi-water sufficient?
K9 May 18th, 2004, 05:12 PM

That should be CTeAP seeing as how it's a cyclo molecule. But in regards to the washing, the article in the journal only
mentions washing the solid with water (and recrystallizing but that's another story).
Desmikes May 18th, 2004, 08:50 PM

Yi, try another reaction using the same reaction time and amounts of Acetone+H2O2, but leave out the catalyst. See how
much AP forms, I think you will end up with more than .5g
Zeitgeist May 19th, 2004, 07:17 AM

Note how they describe it as relatively stable, yet most chemists are shit scared of organic peroxides. I wonder just how much
of a stability difference there is?
FinnBell May 19th, 2004, 02:11 PM

This might be a stupid question, but how can a person tell how many different isomers can be formed from a certain formula?
I know when nitrating AP there is usually the dimer or trimer version and now were talking about the tetra version, and I think
there are like three for MEKP. Im not sure though I could be wrong. But the point is, how many different isomers can be
created for any given formula, this means theoretically as well. I looked in my organic chemistry books and didnt find
anything, there was stuff about the many different combinations of organic compounds in different dimmensions but nothing
on isomers.
P.S. if this is a stupid question delete it or move it.
Desmikes May 19th, 2004, 06:37 PM

FinnBell,
I know when nitrating AP there is usually the dimer or trimer version and now were talking about the tetra version, and I think
there are like three for MEKP.
WTF are you talking about? do you NITRATE AP often?
If by "Formula" you mean A+B=C, then there is only one possible outcome, in this case we get C. Isomers don't have to be
produced by the same reaction, you may get one of the isomers when you react totally different reagents. You can predict
geometrical structure and the number of possible isomers by 3-D modeling or drawing.

Hey you dont have to grill me, I plainly stated that if its a stupid question to either move it or delete it. I know that you can
form the same isomers as well as different ones from several types of reactions. Thats no big mystery. What I wanted to know
was how to predict the many possible isomers out there. Like every combination. Maybe I'm wording it wrong. I was just
thinking would there be a way to predict every possible combination. Maybe it was a stupid question, maybe I just dont know
how to word it. I was just curious because I read something earlier about new isomers of a medical compound being
discovered and I wasnt clear on the whole subject. The way I see it, if they just "discovered it" then the same would go for
explosive compounds, meaning there would be other possible isomers just waiting to be discovered.
frogfot May 20th, 2004, 12:16 AM

One can only predict which isomers will form if reaction mechanism is fully known, usually this can tell ammounts of formed
isomers too. But it's always easier to check this experimentally...
As to actually determine which isomers there are in your product, for example check out that pdf on tetrameric AP. In the end
they give names of the methods that were used to determine the composition. Though I never came in contact with that
OSMO meter and elementar analysis in shool.. I assume these methods require separated isomers, well thats done with
chromatography.. or?
EDIT: Oh, how about HPLC with UV detector to determine AP composition? AP should be seen by UV.. or? ...maby it's too
unstable for UV though.. I dunno.
T_Pyro May 20th, 2004, 10:34 AM

Knowing the molecular structure of the compound, you can calculate its molecular mass. Though not a very convincing test, if
the molecular mass is verified by measuring the depression in the vapour pressure of the solvent (acetone would do), at least
you could make sure that you're not working with the trimer or dimer.
megalomania May 20th, 2004, 11:07 AM

If you have a known molecular formula you can calculate isomers, but if you are talking about an unknown number of
elements then you can have an infinite number of isomers.
There is a whole branch of chemistry devoted to just finding out what moecule you have. Molecular structure ecliduation
involves using multiple spectroscopy techniques and some other funky techniques nobody but a spectroscopist would be
familiar with. You ever wonder how they know exactly what angle certain bonds are, or what ions exist in solution fleetlingly? I
once had occasion to run a sample through a $25,000,000 NMR, it had its own room and everything. Overkill for routine
determination, but not for research studies, and that's the kind of equipment you use when looking for unknown molecules.
I'm just saying it's a little more involved than what most of us are used to in the lab (sticking a sample in an IR or NMR and
pushing a button). People devote their careers to this stuff.
I don't think there is any room left for the discovery of explosive molecules anymore, discovery being "hey this stuff I just
made is explosive." Computational chemistry is such a great thing, they know about explosive molecules before anyone even
makes them. There was an excellent paper in Propellants, Explosives, and Pyrotechnics (I think, it may have been a compu
chem journal) where the researchers set their supercomputers to task custom designing explosive molecules. They had very
limited time with the computer, and narrowly defined only a certain range of molecules (cyclic, symmetrical, and 5 membered
rings) and yet they came out with 75 molecules that theory predicts are among some of the most power explosives.
(symmetrical cyclic rings have a greater density when crystallized which leads to higher explosive velocities). This was one
study by one scientist... I can only imagine what they could come up with if they had more computer time, faster computers,
better structure computation, and a wider search criteria. Naturally nobody knows how to make any of those explosives (yet).

Mega, I find that incredibly interesting, do you know where you read about that? Could you possibly point me in that direction.
Ive been looking into the more theoretical side of chemistry. Right now Im working on my degree for Engineering physics but I
have just started some O-chem and I find it so much more enticing. Our libraby has a great deal of this type of material but
its mostly over medicinal applications. You said something about compu chem journal.? Well any info on this would be greatly
appreciated.
me234 May 24th, 2004, 04:31 AM

Yi's right, what a crap yield, I also tried it with Sn (II) chloride, and all I have is this pathetic little clump of gelatanous stuff, it
feels crystalline between the fingers, but looks gelatanous in the mix, I used about, 0.25 cup 50% H2O2, with 0.5 cup
acetone, and almost all the tin chloride I had, couldn't have been more than 40ml. Before I wasted all my stuff, however, I
took a bit out and I tried to oxidize the Sn(II) to Sn(IV) with some KMnO4 solution, I alos added a tiny bit of Hcl to try and
provide more Cl for the Sn(IV), but I forgot about it getting oxidized to Cl2, dumbass!
Anyway, if someone wants to try the oxidation, acidic medium helps, I think I wanna try with some H2SO4 and some chloride
salt for the reaction medium. I'm pretty sure most people here know the acidic medium part, but there might be some kewlerz
around who need some help.
PLEASE someone try the Sn(IV), if better yields can be gotten, it might be occasionally worthwhile to make some more stable
tetrameric AP for speciality jobs where the trimer might be borderline acceptable for the job. Think how much better AP Putty
could get!
me234 May 25th, 2004, 03:21 AM

OK, wait, my mistake. I forgot a golden rule in AP manufacturing: 6 hours is not long enough to wait before passing
judgement on yield. New observations were made at approx. 24 & 36 hours after SnCl2 addition, and, SO VERY COOL! My
yield, previously thought to have been 'crap', is actually not so bad, in fact, it's PRETTY DAMNED DECENT
With aforementioned amounts of stuff in the dog food dispensing cup, about half full with crystals. Most had collected at the
bottom of the cup, only a small amount floating (very small in fact). Crystal size appears to be larger than what is formed with
well refrigerated trimeric AP. Upon addition of Tin(II) Chloride (dihydrate) solution became very warm, sitting in a freezer for
half an hour did little to help this, but I read to let it react at room temp., Even almost 2 days later the mixture is still
noticably above room temp. I think the large crystals may have formed due to the elevated temperature at which they
crystallized, sort of like when you heat a precipitated mixture to increase particle size to ease filtering (Digestion), I reckon the
slightly larger size should make trying to press it more interesting.
I'm going to let it sit until the weekend, then I'm going to filter, I'm also going to try save the reaction mixture to keep the
SnCl2 as I don't have any more lying around, gonna have to go shopping some time soon.
APPN & APAN should get really cool with the tetrameric form hopefully. With these kinds of yields, manufacturing the tetrameric
form instead of the trimeric form is more than likely economically viable, which is nice. Plus, no more occasional burning my
hands while filtering the acidic medium.
Does anyone have some suitable tests for power comparison and shit like that I can try? Nothing too fancy, I don't really want
to go out and buy a bunch of identical witness plates, but if I find something lying around the house... I'm thinking of stuff
like comparing rates of dissolution between the dimer, trimer and tetramer in different solvents etc. Heh heh, now I have the 3
different types of AP sitting at home.
Anybody have any results to back mine up so I know it's not a fluke?

Moderators:
Perhaps this whole thread should be moved to the "other explosives" section?
FUTI August 26th, 2004, 10:44 AM

Well I don't think that I can really help you with this one! I think the main catalyst for a reaction of this type trimeric or
tetrameric AP is acid...or reaction is chemicaly said acid catalysed ( to people that are not chemist warning do not jump to
conclusion not to much acid) that is the reason the SnCl4 give better result that SnCl2 (because its stronger acid), but maybe
you can change that...if you use SnCl2 and enough hydrochloric acid to make H2(SnCl4) than maybe on conntact with peroxide
it can somehow make SnCl4 that is used originally :confused: or this molecule can itself substitute SnCl4 as acid :o .
As for the temperature conditions don't know...solubility issue mentioned can be true, but I always conduct reaction with
peroxide as cool as posible...to much heat decomposes it, and if it is reactive who can say what is to much heat? :cool:
Let me know if you try this experiment.
Jacob Kell August 30th, 2004, 06:12 PM

So just acetone, H2O2 and SnCl4? well that's great, I think.I made Ap many , many times and always waited for one week to
filter it, and wash it. Every time i experimented with small amounts by hitting with hammer, and it never exploded on impact or
friction. So it just strikes me that so many pyro postings on net claim it is sensitive more than everything. Actually, I find this
explosive very safe. If even more stable isomer could be made, it's great. So, questions. Could anyone tell me the exact
synth of SnCl4 (tin + hydrochloric acid) and how much of it to use in AP synthesis? Is the tertamer more powerful than trimer?
Or more endurable?
ProdigyChild August 30th, 2004, 06:19 PM

I've tried this a week ago. At the moment I'm analizing the result. I've got a strange observation: the cristals I've
recristallized have a LOWER density than those created with HCl alone. However, there may be gas bubbles inside them, that
falsify my density test. Need some more time to create perfect crystals...
In the worst case I could conclude that SnCl2+HCl yields more dimeric AP - really not what I intended :confused:
My idea was slightly different: I thought, the H2O2 would oxidize Sn2+ to Sn4+ somehow, and the additional HCl should form
(Sn-) Clorides instead of Oxide/Hydroxide.
nuclearattack September 1st, 2004, 11:42 AM

I'm trying to make tin cloride but i have some doubts about the results.
I have putted some soldering wire (should be pure Sn) in 30% HCl and i let it react for some hours. At the end of the reaction
the solution is perfectly clear but at the bottom of the jar i have a black solid powder. What is this?
SnCl2 or SnCl4?
In a previous post i read that SnCl2 is a pink liquid and SnCl4 is a solid...maybe i obtained SnCl4?
FUTI September 1st, 2004, 01:07 PM

to nuclearattack: I think you are on wrong path, look for MSDS on the JTBaker site or elsewhere...SnCl2*2H20 is a white crystal
solid as I remember, and I think that SnCl4 is liquid, both should be miscible with water (Sn2+ much more than Sn4+). I
guess that the use of alloy is wrong or at least troublesome since you don't know what is that black powder maybe it is the
other metal (like Sb) or maybe that is Sn that is reduced by the other metal and that kept him undissolved. Check
composition.
to ProdigyChild: I post a similar idea but I don't know does it work. Use 2mole of HCl per mole of SnCl2. My guess is that they
use a complex formation by Sn and ligands are acetone and peroxide, so this promote reaction, or it is slow HCl release by
SnCl4. Try this and try to monitor the pH during the course of it. Let as know what come of it. I hope that will work. If the
comlex formation is the key...then some chemist must do the rest of refinement in the reaction conditions since then order
and speed of mixing is very important (temperature is already a parameter I hope:)). If it goes trough complex formation I
guess it must use two centered complex (two Sn) bridged with peroxo group, and that is the key step for making tetrameric
from dimeric form.
Edit: I forgot to add SnCl4 is as I remember made through Sn and Cl2 so it is not easy procedure...if I need that I would buy
it! But if you guys succeed to make it in situ as described above before you add acetone fantastic...let me know about it!
ProdigyChild September 1st, 2004, 04:57 PM

If you use the same alloy as me (96%Sn, 4%Cu) then the black residue is super fine copper. I have the same observation.
This wire is used for drinking water tubes soldering. Lead free ;)
If you used 'normal' soldering wire, like for electronics, you have lots of lead (Sn 60% Pb 38% Cu 2%). Toxic PbCl2 :eek: be
careful!
Pure Sn wire isn't sold, I'm pretty sure. Doesn't Sn have some very strange properties around 13 ° ??
I had a bad experience last night. I was so stupid to melt some (supposed to be tetrameric) AP.
The cristals I made are not perfect, so my idea was to cast a solid piecelet of AP to determine its density.
To my surprise the firt result was a opaque solid drop. The measured density was below 1.1g/cm3. Another sign of it beeing
dimeric rather than tetrameric. I have other crystals of higher density (supposed to be trimeric).
Maybe because it was shock freezed by dropping into a PE mould.
The I wanted to cool it down more slowly. It got molten, then I wanted to turn the metal plate a bit around to let the drop
reach the edge and....
KABAAMMMMM!!!
Fucking shit! ears ringing for a while and no interest in casting AP any more :(
When liquid this stuff detonates in smallest quantities (assuming a drop is small quantity for most members here :D )
I stick to time-consuming cristallization now.
nuclearattack September 2nd, 2004, 05:18 AM

Yes Prodigy i'm using normal soldering wire!
What can i do? Can i use this black powder without taking care of the impurities? I don't think so but i can try.
I'm not able to get Sn because i don't know where to search it. Cola cans are made with alluminium or a kind of Sn/Al alloy so
i'm not sure that it will works.
Where do you take Sn? Is it possible to buy SnCl2 or SnCl4? I made a search in my city but i didn't find it.
sevin September 2nd, 2004, 10:12 AM

I looked in my Alfa Aesar catalog (www.alfa.com). They have it listed at around $15 for 500g of SnCl4. They obviously have
shit prices for most of their stuff, but they do have everything.
kingspaz September 2nd, 2004, 11:30 AM

Tin oxides can be bought from pottery supply places for use in glazes. Tin oxides could also be reacted with something like Al
powder in a thermite type composition to liberate metallic tin. The resulting mix of Al2O3 and tin could be purified by melting
the mix and pouring off the liquid tin (since tin melts at about 180 IIRC) leaving behind the Al2O3 slag.
ProdigyChild September 2nd, 2004, 01:35 PM

There's nothing wrong with that Cu powder. Filter or decant and you're fine!
The lead cloride has low solubility at low temperature. As said, I would not work with lead salts. I've done nearly a decade ago
and not anymore since then.
Pb is a bit more noble than Sn, so if you stop the reaction before all (gray) metal has dissolved, you should get rid of the Pb:
Pb2+ + Sn ==> Pb + Sn2+ (1)
Or else add a bit of aluminium powder or foil to reduce some random kations
3 Sn2+ + 2 Al ==> 3Sn + 2 Al3+ (2)

3 Pb2+ + 2 Al ==> 3Pb + 2 Al3+ (3)
Sn of reaction (2) goes on like (1).

That way you HAVE A CHANCE to get rid of the Pb salt by filtering or decanting.
Your solution then contains only unpoisonous Al and Sn salts.
nuclearattack September 2nd, 2004, 04:47 PM

This morning i had a look to my HCl/soldering wire batch and i seen a small quantity of a white solid just on top of the black
powder. The white solid has a filament shape just like the soldering wire shape. I had no time to extract it but i think that it is
crystalline, maybe this is SnCl2 2H20?
kingspaz September 3rd, 2004, 10:50 AM

Solder is typically a Pb/Sn alloy (50/40 IIRC). The white powder is probably a mixture of both lead and tin chloride.
K9 September 3rd, 2004, 12:15 PM

Well I just found an old box of tin/lead solder in the garage. I emailed the compnay to ask about an MSDS but I haven't
recieved a reply yet. Is it even worth attempting to use, or just scratch that idea because of the lead impurities?
hinz December 23rd, 2004, 01:14 PM

I think, it's crap to catalyse the tetrameric AP reaction with SnCl4.
I also wanted to make tetrameric AP with the SnCL4 catalyst,but i didn't know how to make it. Therefore i googled for it and
found it's MSDS.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s6386.htm
There it's written thats SnCl4 reacts violently with water, which is always in your H2O2 acetone mixture. It will react to HCl in
contact with H2O, which is the standard catalyst for TATP
SnCl4 + 2 H2O ==> SnO2 + 4 HCl
The same thing will happen with SnCl2, but only slower and less violent.
SnCl2 + H2O ==> Sn(OH)Cl + HCl
I think those scientists decomposed their SnCl4 to SnO2 and 4 HCl and made TATP or DADP
K9 December 23rd, 2004, 11:52 PM

Care to explain "SnCl45H2O and SnCl22H2O are efficient catalysts for the oxidation of acetone with 30% hydrogen peroxide
at room temperature and produce tetrameric acetone peroxide which is identified by molecular weight determination,
elemental analysis, FTIR, NMR and MS." ?
Besides, doesn't that reaction only happen with anhydrous tin chloride?
FUTI December 24th, 2004, 04:53 AM

to K9: Honestly this is the first time I heard about SnCl4*5H2O....though I'm little sceptical about it since I saw and heard
about weirder things I can't count this as hoax at start, the other salt is OK. The only form of SnCl4 that I cross by so far is
anhydrous.
to hinz: This posibility you mentioned is disscused before in the thread...did you checked pH change during the reaction and
come to some conclusion? If you did share it with us. Sn-oxides aren't water soluble so they could precipitate with AP, then
precrystalization of product is necesary. Maybe the crude product can be checked for residue on burning (now that is a tricky
one)?
K9 December 24th, 2004, 11:01 AM

If you look at the msds - http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s6386.htm
anhydrous is listed as having a CAS number of 7646-78-8, and the pentahydrate form having a number of 10026-06-9

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simply RED May 22nd, 2001, 06:22 PM

PHILOU Zrealone May 23rd, 2001, 05:28 AM

simply RED May 23rd, 2001, 07:20 AM

PHILOU Zrealone May 23rd, 2001, 08:20 AM

simply RED May 24th, 2001, 04:16 PM

Anthony May 25th, 2001, 03:45 PM

PHILOU Zrealone May 28th, 2001, 05:35 AM

Imagine a little H2O inside your mix...

4Al + 3S2 --> 2Al2S3

simply RED May 28th, 2001, 06:51 AM

Demolition June 1st, 2001, 10:35 AM

Demolition June 1st, 2001, 10:49 AM

I recommend this LE. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

(hope the pics work)

the freshmaker June 2nd, 2001, 09:22 AM

Demolition June 3rd, 2001, 12:20 AM

BrAiNFeVeR August 1st, 2001, 11:15 AM

Mick August 2nd, 2001, 09:44 AM

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daturk2000 February 24th, 2001, 09:47 AM

Mr Cool February 24th, 2001, 10:38 AM

blackadder February 24th, 2001, 10:53 AM

daturk2000 February 24th, 2001, 11:46 AM

Bitter February 24th, 2001, 12:17 PM

kingspaz February 24th, 2001, 05:38 PM

Foodos February 24th, 2001, 09:34 PM

Mr Cool February 25th, 2001, 10:00 AM

55lb from my place costs a total of 34.

55lb from Skylighter costs a total of 147.

Anthony February 25th, 2001, 04:21 PM

J February 25th, 2001, 08:36 PM

Mr Cool February 26th, 2001, 04:14 PM

J February 26th, 2001, 07:39 PM

Mr Cool February 27th, 2001, 03:26 PM

Jhonbus February 27th, 2001, 03:44 PM

SATANIC March 2nd, 2001, 10:28 PM

oxyrad March 3rd, 2001, 12:40 AM

Ericm115 August 19th, 2001, 08:08 PM

Berserker August 19th, 2001, 08:37 PM

Ericm115 August 19th, 2001, 09:41 PM

Ericm115 August 20th, 2001, 03:32 AM

Berserker August 20th, 2001, 05:28 AM

Victim August 20th, 2001, 09:15 PM

Disturbed August 21st, 2001, 06:59 AM

Mr Cool August 21st, 2001, 07:47 AM

Anthony August 21st, 2001, 04:50 PM

mr.evil October 1st, 2001, 01:48 PM

look at that guy: "Daturk2000".

i think this guy is an KeWl bomber.

Mr Cool October 1st, 2001, 02:38 PM

mr.evil October 1st, 2001, 03:34 PM

J October 1st, 2001, 05:31 PM

nbk2000 October 2nd, 2001, 04:31 AM