bonsoir I'm Marie Monique stucco and I'm

the president of the French Institute a

Leon Hall says we call it Phi F and

thank you for this wonderful gathering

of friends for our annual sex and

seduction series we call it the art of

sex and seduction tonight we have the

great pleasure of welcoming the star of

relationships Esther Perel Esther Perel

is well known for being the voice of

reason in modern love and she is here to

discuss her recently published book the

state of affairs rethinking infidelity

how lucky we have we are to have a step

petal here tonight she just told me that

actually it's a third time that she is

coming for this art and sex and

seduction series at VF so you see she's

a loyal fan but we are loyal as well I

must say so I would like also to tell

you that she has a podcast which is

called where should we begin and it's in

a 10 top post cast in iTunes and it it

really is a live couple therapy session

she just showed it to me and I must tell

you I'm going to look at it because it

really and listen to it because it

really looks fascinating Esther Perel

will be joined on stage by writer and

journalist and then give it a toss and

then recently published a book which you

can also buy outside the true American

murder and mercy in Texas he's a

political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC

and a former columnist for The New York

Times there will be a

question-and-answer session they will

talk and then you will have the chance

to ask all your innermost

unit's question and once the talk is

finished you will be able to go and meet

a stare and an end and they will sign

their books now please join me in

welcoming both a stare and a nod thank

you

[Applause]

thank you all for coming it is a

pleasure to be with you all tonight at

this incredible moment in our common

life in which questions of men and women

love and sex power and abuse honor and

betrayal are swirling like a storm it's

an honor to sit beside Astaire who is

not only a dear friend not only one of

the smartest people I have ever met but

also for me personally having met her

right before I was about to become a

father someone who has provided me

extraordinary guidance and extraordinary

reminders that the families we create we

often create with dullness and a lack of

imagination and it doesn't have to be

that way when I was a boy growing up in

Cleveland Ohio if you told me I would

one day be involved in a talk titled the

art of sex and seduction I would have

asked for the exact address and left

Cleveland immediately in search of it

and if you told me the location was the

Allianz Hall says I would have smiled

because it was at another alley Austin

says the one in Bombay India in 1975

that my parents met so the moral of the

story is delete delete your tinder

delete your tinder and take a French

class

[Music]

there's so much to talk about I know I

was not even paid to do that there's so

much to talk about tonight your book the

world beyond your book all the questions

implicated by this amazing book the

state of affairs which I read with great

embarrassment in many public places in

America people looking at me like I was

figuring out how to have one but I want

to start with more people yeah exactly

I'm thinking of getting the the Bible

jacket and just putting it on the

outside one of the great things about

hardcovers and I want to start with this

moment that we're in you have a

remarkable ability to step back and look

at what happens between small groups of

people in a bigger context but the

benefit of history with the benefit of

the thousands of hours people have spent

in a chair with you telling you their

intimate lives what do you make of this

remarkable me to moment and where do you

think it's leave us it's a watershed

moment where there well you hear a loud

roar a an accumulation of all the small

and not so small experiences that men

and women have experienced of

belittlement of oppression of

humiliation of intimidation of threats

of harassment of assault and of rape and

there is just a this is enough something

else has to happen and what is what is

it that needs to change you know the

story of men who have social power and

have leveraged it to deal with their

sexual insecurities is an old story

these are not sexually powerful men

sexually powerful men seduced they don't

harass these are insecure man who

leveraged their social power

and that is old I mean I've gone back to

reading things from the 80s and then

from the you know periods and periods

and periods you know all the way to 2 to

3 centuries back and it's a crowd at the

same time I read a very interesting line

that when we think you know will this

lead to anything and what about this

movement of people coalescing and

basically finding a voice and feeling

like it's okay to say because you won't

be told I won't be believed that in the

1700s it was what people began to talk

about in terms of how the grits were

dealing with the slaves that actually it

led gradually to a change in the law in

the legislation so actually I do think

that noise can be effective it just

needs to be sustainable noise and it

needs to be noise that remains careful

of not lumping everything together such

as such as you cannot take power out of

sex power and sexuality are

intrinsically related so is power in

relationships it's a dimension of

relationships when your kid doesn't want

to do something he has power its power

from the bottom up and power from the

top down but there is a big difference

between power 2 and power over when i

seduce you I have power to make you

gradually want to come to me voluntarily

that is the essential word voluntarily

there is no greater power or sovereignty

than voluntary surrender power over is

humiliation and threats and demeaning

and degradation and there's a difference

between a compliment and a degradation

but when we are constantly talking about

the degradation we still need to

remember the importance of the

compliment one of the interesting when

you're talking about power and sex one

of the interesting debates that's

happening right now is about the

workplace and whether there is any place

for even consensual romance flirtation

relationships in the workplace and there

are some people who say if you have

power differentials of any kind

consent is kind of unknowable we can

never ascertain it therefore let's keep

it entirely out of the workplace you you

tend to have a different view can you

talk about where you land on whether we

need to banish all of that all sexuality

from the workplace well then what go

with robots I mean where exactly are

people still supposed to meet at this

point you know you can't eradicate the

ambiguities the tensions the unspoken of

relationships you can legislate it up

the wazoo there still this is a living

animal thing distinct hold relationships

it is filled with mishaps etc at the

moment we decided in the West that we

were going to democratize sexuality and

to become more promiscuous that you were

no longer just going to marry and have

sex for the first time actually with

today you marry and you stop having sex

with others that from that moment on we

were putting ourselves in a bed of all

kinds of situations that said he's not

at all the same thing as as licensing

for harassment and assault

but every situation has an element of

power and you could say that for a long

time women leverage their sexual power

to rise and get more social power people

have used power for their benefit to

compensate for the spaces where they

lack power is it possible to have a

relationship with somebody that you work

with and that is clear of power no but

why would you is it possible that people

can fall in love at work and live a life

together afterwards absolutely is it not

a good idea if you are the boss that you

go out with your underling probably it's

not a good idea because it's complicated

but people have done complicated

relationships forever people have gone

with their muses they've gone with their

students they've gone with their their

staff their people have and not always

was it just an

the size of power and sometimes we also

have to still talk about love love has

sometimes had the force to want to go

across borders and barriers that you

were not meant to go and that force that

force is also something that motivates

us and so that's my answer

but I'm not a legislator I'm a

psychologist we wish we wish you were a

legislator obviously you can literally

replace any of them and it would be an

improvement let's talk about consent I

was at this amazing performance this

weekend

and this very pioneering artist kind of

started by saying you know a lot of

people think this stuff happening on

college campuses where consent is

getting very explicit and can I now look

at your shoulder kind of thing is it's

too far and it's unsexy but he said but

I want to prove otherwise and he did

this kind of routine kind of trying to

make it show that it can be sexy to say

can I sit next to you can I now said two

inches closer to you and it was a kind

of funny thing but I wonder you talk so

much about keeping exactly thank you

thank you that's that was my oblique way

of asking you talk so much about how do

you keep the spice alive how do you have

mystery how do you have the unknowable

have a space in relationships how does

that square with the other good thing

that is happening which is consent

getting more explicit and people coming

to a clearer understanding of when it

actually occurs you know I think there's

something about the issue of consent

that is also a little bit cultural you

know a relationship is a process of

iteration and reiteration you do

something you watch you check for the

consequence you notice you're not sure

you try a little bit it doesn't work

it's called pacing you know you wait to

get a sign you get a sign then you're

not sure was it really the sign we

thought it was then you think yes maybe

it is then you

realize that it was a sign but not the

one you thought and then you know that

whole dance like that some people

literally in the middle of that right

now he's like a date that they're having

and sometimes somebody needs to say stop

enough not interested or sometimes you

have consent but it was not wanted you

can have consent and unwanted you know

and that that is part of the

complication of the experiences that you

realize in the middle I'm not so sure I

wanted this even though I said yes did

you see this amazing short story that's

gone viral over the weekend no I'm sure

many of you saw a cat person

it's amazing story in The New Yorker

that is entirely about when there is

consent but it's unwanted yes I mean you

know anybody in this room who has had

many experiences since they were 16 or

17 has at least those that make you

smile and those that made you say what

was I thinking you know where was I what

was but if the day we decided we wanted

that freedom that freedom comes with

sometimes consent that is unwanted at

the same time I think that the more

experience you have with other people

with members of the sex that you are

drawn to and from little on the more you

have known the experiences of the other

the more you have piled up with boys and

girls in the grass and talked about

things like that the better you are

attuned at reading the signs if you come

after years of ignorance and deserts and

suddenly you have to deal with consent

you are bringing an Asperger mentality

to seduction and how do you read the

face and how do you know you've done

everything online you've been hiding the

whole time you know even really learn to

look at eyes you don't know what the

experience is on the other side you know

it's that that then puts consent as the

ultimate gait rather than intuition

sensibility a sense of aesthetic a sense

of interpersonal intelligence those

things also guide our interactions not

just the

Gate yay me the screen generation

becomes a worrisome and yes because once

you have that kind of digital

communication as the primary

communication it flattens things I mean

it's great I mean I'd love to text it's

not but it flattens things you know you

just don't have that many emotions not

getting that sciences of human

experience in human feelings so now I

come and you sit this way and I'm not

really sure anymore is this a face that

says keep talking or is this the face

that said shut the up I'm trying

I'm trying to keep it completely

unreadable that's all you read it

correctly so now I'm waiting for consent

now I need a clear visible sign you know

nobody's gotten a weird but it always

does with I mean this has to be clear

nobody wants to wake up the next day and

say what happened to me what happened to

me you know and nobody wants to be lying

they're half drunk and drugged out with

somebody who takes advantage of us and

and nobody wants a man who confuses sex

and rape and no those things have to be

established once we are very clear on

that then you need to still bring people

back to an experience of relational

intelligence so that they can be in

interaction with people and not freak

out when the signs are not clear and

learn to read and decode and do that

which people have done for centuries I

want to turn to the book now you know if

you write a book about infidelity and

it's a book that has a compassionate

approach to the topic you're obviously

highly motivated and willing to to face

serious blowback the great American

writer Michael Lewis once said writers

write because they feel the world has

misperceived something so what did you

feel the world had misperceived

what did I feel the world had

misperceived I think that when when I

deal with experiences of human life that

are in that like in my office you know

I've been at couples therapist for 35

years almost I've the last years only

seen couples with infidelity I have seen

the gamut I haven't seen all yet but

I've seen a lot worldwide and and I'm

thinking this experience is so complex

it's really a vortex it's complete it's

it's messy it's it really can't be

summarized in black and white it can't

just be a victim and a perpetrator it

can't just be you know a good person and

a bad person and I and this conversation

is wrong not that it is inaccurate but

it is incomplete and it leaves out you

know a host of other understandings for

the complexity of this experience if I

can I ask a question to this audience so

you this is the misperception don't

answer yet but imagine this I'm asking

you have you been touched by the

experience of infidelity in your life

either because you had a child of a

partner a parent who fell in love with

someone else and left or who had affairs

or a one affair either because you had

the offspring of an illicit love either

because you're the friend that somebody

has been crying to for days now in

either because you are the confidant of

people who are in the throes of one or

either because you are resisting and you

know that there is something really

intensely pulling you or you are one of

the three primary protagonists in the

triangle how many of you would say

you've been touched by the experience of

infidelity in your lives okay this is

the misperception the story is in

fairness this is a French Institute so

[Applause]

so adjust for Infernus I have now done

30 talks across America and the

Americans don't cheat any less than the

French

so just less sexily in fairness this is

intergenerational this is systemic

infidelity has accompanied marriage

since marriage was invented and it is

described as if it is a few bad apples

and I think that it lacks the compassion

and the understanding of that phenomenon

so that it becomes shrouded in secrecy

and in shame all the time and that to me

when I see something I think it's from

where I come from that that where I just

feel like the judgment galore and people

are just dismissed you know all of them

all of them the only ones that get a

little sympathy sometimes is the

children but none of the other three are

the primary adults I just thought we can

do better we need a new conversation for

the oldest sin one of the profoundest

things in the book for me is although on

every page it's about infidelity on

every page it seems to me not about

infidelity in a deeper level and you

reject what you call the symptom model

which is infidelity is always a symptom

of a bad relationship you think that's a

an outdated a very narrow view and what

struck me on page after page is that you

think we are all living wrong in a

variety of ways that have nothing to do

with our relationship we don't have

enough friends we don't have enough

community we're putting all this

pressure on this one relationship in

part because we don't we don't have the

kinds of other social connections of

people you sue can you talk about how

this is in some ways a book about how we

live more broadly I really like that you

see that it is true that I always say

this is a book about relationships

through the lens of infidelity what

better way to understand relationships

resilience strength Reba

etc than to go actually go digging in

one of the worst crisis but in writing

this I you know to understand modern

infidelity you have to understand modern

marriage because infidelity has existed

but it changes with the model of

marriage pain is pain but the way you

narrate your pain the made you make

meaning of it has to do with your

expectations as well so I I read a lot a

lot about but you know what has happened

to the couple of today and you know here

is this unit that has relationship

expectations at an all-time high never

have we expected more from this one unit

you know that is meant to give you all

the base needs of survival and

companionship and children and economic

support then it's meant to give you

belonging and transcendence and meaning

and then it's meant to give yourself

fulfilment and passion and all of these

things and then it's on top of it in

this country it has to be a social

welfare state of two you know it's like

in this unit not only is it meant to be

this one and only which by the way used

to refer to God not two people soul

mates the soul me it was not your

partner

you know this was for the divine and

then at the same time in the village you

know you kind of heard every argument of

every couple you golf and do way too

much but now your friends can come and

tell you that they're divorcing and you

didn't see it coming so you put this

unit that is so much expected from it

and that we also under resource it and

it feels so isolated and something is

not working and then you add infidelity

to it so when you now cheat on me

you my best friend my trusted confidante

my passionate lover my one and only the

one for whom I deleted my apps the one

who cured me of my case of FOMO the one

who I called my soulmate the one all

when you do this to me and we were

everything for each other where do I go

so this becomes one of the most

isolating experiences people can tell

you that they are divorced they will not

tell you that they have experienced

infidelity it's the big

and if you cheated on me not only do I

have the shame of your cheating on me

but on top of it I have the shame of not

being able to tell anybody because the

only thing people will tell me is throw

the dog on the curb so now I'm really

caught and all I saw was people who are

living you know for any other crisis you

get support for this one you are doubly

isolated and I saw this in the context

of what does it mean when you want

everything from one person what does it

mean when you can't talk truth couples

are not telling the truth that's why I

did the podcast I wanted a place where

people can actually hear through telling

around relationships not fictitious

curated lives on social you know the

real story and and then from there I

think we can do it we can do better we

can take it we can take this in a

different direction that's it that's

what I see when I look at society I I

see you know the public the number one

public health crisis is loneliness at

this point in this country and at the

same time this experience compounds it

and I see that people still want to be

in relationships people still want

families they want relationships they

don't want to lose themselves in the

relationships but they want the

relationships and so it becomes really

an examination of modern living yeah and

part of what happens when you let all

those other relationships wither and you

do gamble everything on that one person

and that one person is now the village

is that another very big theme of the

book is an almost excessive closeness

develops that you keep writing when it

comes again and again in the book in

different ways you have this great line

fire needs air and when everybody else

is gone and that person is the one and

only an almost sibling like relationship

often forms and the people you are

talking about and thinking about and can

you talk about how an excess of

closeness an excess of comfort and

excess of familiarity

can actually get people into a very bad

place so you know this is actually more

for me when I try to understand the

relationship between love and desire

they relate but sometimes they also

conflict and herein lies the mystery of

eroticism right what fuels love that I

know you that you are predictable to me

that you are reliable that that we have

low conflict that you are that I feel

secure with you that I can open up to

all of those things and not necessarily

the same things that fuel desire by

which I want to actually not know you I

still want to discover you I still want

you to be curious about me I still want

to have some sense of mystery

I still want some element of

unpredictability you know everything

that erotism thrives on sometimes it's

what family life defends against and so

when people would come to me and say in

first book in mating in captivity people

would say to me and we love each other

very much

we have no sex and I had to begin to

understand that and now people would

coming to me and say I love my partner

I'm having an affair the ones who are in

a mess and really resent their

relationships and and now having an

affair it's kind of what's to write

about that it's kind of it's been said

you know either you want to leave either

you want a vengeance either you you know

you're doing a reaction but the happy

people they're happy people that was

something that I was really it wasn't

happy people it's people that are in

satisfying relationships people who are

in happy relationships it's been looked

as a spur happy people and then I began

to see the longing so then we get the

question becomes longing for what why do

people after years risk losing

everything that they themselves have

built the rules they themselves have set

up for what what is it that they're

missing and something happens when you

are with your best friend and you are in

a relationship with your confidante and

your and you become interchangeable

roles to create a family and all these

things that make for happy relationships

but something becomes dear

deciced sometimes and then I start to

hear people who say I it's been 15 years

and all I have been is wife and mother

and daughter to my parents where is the

woman and then you don't know anymore

how to find a woman inside this unit you

don't you love this unit but this unit

is predicated on the part of you that

isn't it has not been there for so long

and so suddenly you have this thing

called an affair this is not to be an

apologies this is just one of the

multiple stories but it's such a common

one and suddenly for the first time

you're doing something that is just for

you that's what you're doing you're not

cheating you know you're not cheating -

you know you are betraying you know you

are lying deceiving you're doing a lot

of things but what you're doing for you

is a complete different thing what

you're doing for you is reconnecting

with lost parts of yourselves you know

with a different version of you with the

sense of aliveness the issue of

infidelity is less about the cheating

and the betrayal as it is about the

transgression it's about the breaking

out of one's own you know now that can

be my insecurity my narcissism my life

my beloved life but it is a

transgressive act it is a resounding act

of rebellion and entitlement an

entitlement it is totally a selfish act

you're doing this just for you it's very

clear this is not a collective thinking

one bit but what you're experiencing is

not that what you are experiencing is an

experience of desire affairs are not

about sex Affairs are about desire

desire for connection desire for

intensity desire for for physical touch

desire for you know fulfilling a life

desire you can have a whole affair with

no sex just imagining it and it is just

as intense and as passionate as if you

had actually had the act it is more

enchantment than performance so I just

saw got it caught a glimpse of a

Argentinian friend of mine in the

audience is Amit I immediately thought

of the topic of jealousy

and jealousy is one of these things that

and there are many examples of this in

your book things that you concepts that

have a low reputation that you sort of

redeem mm-hmm in the book

jealousy became a bad word in modern

times it disappeared from the magazines

here in the 70s and you think it

actually has some constructive use yes

in keeping people together so give us

your pitch on the redemption you know

it's very distinguished sometimes I ask

in the States for people to free

associate about the word infidelity or

affair or twist or adventure or love

affair or but you know the whole

gamut and I can get a list of 60 words

and jealousy will not feature but the

main one that rarely features is love

when I'm in Argentina among the first

five you have love jealousy passion and

revenge and then I say to the urgent in

Ian's I say how come you don't put lying

on the top of your list they say we've

been doing that since the Spanish

arrived that's a given that comes with

the territory

so jealousy is an erotic wrath that's

one of the ways of looking at it you

gotta go to the operas to understand for

the force of jealousy jealousy means

there was it can only happen for

something that you have envy is from

something that you didn't know but

jealousy is for something that you have

that is being taken away and diverted to

this third person and I want it back

and sometimes that jealousy makes me

fight for you and sometimes in that

jealousy I'm not talking pathological

jealousy now for a moment but in that

jealousy I lose some of my pride pride

but I reconnect with my fire and I

reconnect with the pardon me that

actually lets you know that I do want

you after sometimes four years being

rather lazy and complacent and

uninterested and indifference it comes

on the heels of that today sometimes

when people are jealous we prefer to say

they're traumatized it is the new line

which you know it's an it rather than to

sometimes I say to people you jealous

you know you have obsessions you are you

if this you have images you're to seeing

them you want to experience what the

other one did experience this is good

old jealousy you know it's not a fun

feeling one bit but it is part of the

experience of love it is intrinsic to

love jealousy it's not just a trauma

there is trauma to but everything these

days emphasizes the traumatic nature now

if I am in a rotted wrath then I am

fighting for my partner for the person

that I love that I want to bring back

that is a different way of fighting than

being victim you are empowered when you

come from that place you're not just in

a disempowered victim place and in the

rejection and in the triangulation of

the adulteress plot I get reignited with

that part of me and I'm gonna go and

reclaim you and put my claws on the

territory and all the possessiveness

that comes with that and it does

reconnect people with a part of their

erotic self it is part of the erotic

that darker corner of the erotic

yes I think she redeemed jealousy would

you agree I did okay let's talk about

let's talk about men yes men need a

reboot

the you know there are a lot of men in

your book people you've you've seen

therapeutically probably none of them I

don't think they're any Harvey

Weinstein's in your book there's your

good narcissist right but I'm talking

about you know truly evil monsters

there's a lot of men in your book who

are lost confused trapped between all

the new ideas of male power sexuality

who work just lost and I wonder in this

moment where we're having this

conversation

men are struggling to fit into quote the

shrinking maneuvering space between

being a wimp and being a rapist mm-hmm

do you think we're doing enough to teach

men who they need to be on the other

side of patriarchy no no I think that

how do we do that I think that first of

all the life of women will not change

until the men come along and in if we're

gonna talk sexually for a moment the

same way that we worked very hard to

finally change this notion that female

sexuality is inherently masochistic I

think we have to also challenge the

notion that male sexuality is inherently

violent or aggressive or predatory I

think the predatory fear is at a heart

of male sexuality but not the inherent

predatory nature that's a very big

difference because if you can put it

like that then you can teach men how to

be how to be sexual without being

aggressive or violent or hurtful which

and the only way they know that the only

way you know that you are not being a

predator is by the response of the other

person it is the other person's pleasure

that tells you you're not hurting me

you're pleasing me and that's what makes

male sexuality is so deeply dependent

and relational contrary to anything we

think we look at male sexuality as if

it's some biological force they were

always ready in search of an outlet it

just spurts out of them no it's like it

is
so relational and it is part of that

dependence and part of that relation

ality of male sexuality that is so

troubling that it needs to be squashed

by all these power maneuvers you know

that way I you know I can do this in

front of you I can completely expose

myself and now I do not have to fear

your rejection anymore and now I don't

have to fear my lack of performance

anymore and now I don't have to worry

about what your experience is like I am

owning this space and you are my captive

audience this is all compensation for

for the degree to which this dependence

exists so I think that you know boys at

the age of three are touched less than

girls by their own parents

we still collude in this notion that we

can feminize these boys if we leave them

too sensitive and too vulnerable and

then we begin the masculinization of

these boys you know this the making of

men because we are born women but we

become men man's identity is constantly

having to prove itself I'm a real man

I'm away you know and now we're going to

start working on disconnecting boys from

their vulnerability from their

connections to other from their

Sensibility

we're gonna make them fearless and

autonomous and competitive and all of

that stuff and then we all they then

they want to know how do I experience

connection that you know in which I

don't have to use aggression from that

place so in the book what you see is a

lot of men who struggle with aggression

actually and who split it off and so

they leave love lust splits they have a

place for their aggression with women

that they that the extent with whom they

have a different emotional connection

sometimes they devalue them but not

always and then they have the partner

with whom they live their life and that

is a very traditional split for

infidelity we have a few minutes left I

want to these will be a little rapid

round and start getting your own

ready I want to ask you about you know

we're living in such a remarkable era in

terms of the family changing and you

know because it's a dark time right now

for many of us we also forget how much

progress there has been on the rights of

gay people of transgender people etc in

this very same era and fathers and

father the biggest change of men's life

is the invention of modern fatherhood so

I wonder when you think about same-sex

marriage and that revolution when you

think about our growing understanding of

gender how is it changing the

relationships of traditional

heterosexual couples is it changing the

institution for the rest of us in ways

that that you're seeing and now what's

your last time with them Savage she said

straight people are living the lives

that queer people used to live and queer

people have beginning to live the lives

of the heterosexuals you know and I

thought there's something to this

comment I think I think that when you

are not part of the norm the

heterosexual norm in general you are

more isolated but you are also sometimes

a lot more creative you get to actually

invent your own norms you're not

beholden to a system that is telling you

how to live every step so I think that

definitely the conversation about

monogamy has been led by by a lot of

same sex couples particularly gay

couples you know until not until

recently and I think in most cases still

the conversation on monogamy and the

negotiation about monogamy in straight

couples it's five words I catch you you

dead that is it that's the chat you know

that is the entire and yet we can't

assume it anymore there's no way we can

just assume monogamy at this moment we

have to negotiate it I think that the

whole notion of the fluidity you know by

thinking about trans people by

understanding the difference between sex

and gender by understanding the

difference between who you're making

love to and who you're making love as

you know that these are really

degrees that needed to be opened up you

know all these concepts we use the same

words but their meanings have

fundamentally shifted the fact that when

you you know on the level of the family

on the level of the man I really do

think fatherhood is the the big big

change and if you are gave six months of

paternity leave you would have a

different story later on you know

there's no doubt about that

that's that's just the beginning of this

so you know you mentioned these

conversations about monogamy so in the

book towards the end you encourage

people to maybe overcome their

squeamishness about having the talk

which in which in your case means that

talk about the birds right exactly it's

the it's like the stage two of the talk

and the talk that you describe is a talk

of saying let's not inherit a template

of a monogamous relationship that our

great-grandparents used but let's

actually have a conversation about what

are the boundaries of this relationship

and the conclusion of that conversation

maybe let's do what our

great-grandparents did and it may be

let's have a open relationship and it

may be something in between do you think

we are trending however slowly in a

direction where everybody is going to

have some variant of an open

relationship or at least a negotiated

monogamy or do you think that's monogamy

is going to have a tenacity to out

maneuver those pressures do you think

that virginity which used to be the big

boundary before it's the precursor to

the conversation about monogamy today

forever the thought of having sex before

marriage was inconceivable shameful

ostracizing inconceivable not accepted

today in the West it is a fairly

accepted norm monogamy used to be one

person for life today monogamy is one

person at a time and people comfortably

tell you that they are monogamous in all

their relationships

Norrell you know this word has already

undergone an amazing makeover you know

so I think that what we talked about

today around sexual exclusivity is in

the continuation of the conversation

that began around virginity we wanted

freedom before and now some people would

like freedom from within or at least we

want to have a sense of what that's like

but here is the challenge of the

conversation about monogamy if I have

had 15 years of sexual nomadism and then

finally I picked the person and this

person is my one and only it's the one

for whom I was willing to put all the

others aside how am I gonna have a

conversation with this person about the

fact that I may still have attractions

to others just that we're not talking

about being with other partners just the

notion that the fact that you are mine

or I'm with you and we are us doesn't

mean that my entire erotic self has been

subsumed by you it still exists

independently and so the conversation

can take place because it instantly

means I'm not enough if you tell people

what's the best way to initiate that

very hard conversation exactly dad I

said come on it's like did you just

drink a lot like how do you actually

have that how do you you know when you

see you know what's it like today when

you see people do you still have the

same kind of thoughts that you used to

have before do you find yourself

censoring your thoughts when you see

other people because are you do you feel

guilty when you have a fantasy about

somebody else would you ever share your

fantasies about someone else with me

when you sit on the subway and you

notice this person and you and you think

these things do you wonder what it would

have been like if you were still single

today it's a chance it's not a

threatening conversation that I am not

enough because you have interesting

others it's not are we allowed to be an

open relationship the conversation has

to be open not the relationship what is

open is the conversation and when the

conversation is open in fact people are

not nearly as inclined to go so far

because who'd wants to leave a place in

which you feel free

you come home voluntarily it's the

places that are in contrary constraining

you that make you want to go outside so

I always said people don't open up your

relationship open up the conversation

don't pretend that this is not happening

you know when you sing this movie and

you see this actor you know it's like

that it's the it but it is an

acknowledgement that the fact that we

chose it so that doesn't mean that we

are not still sexual as an entity

sovereignty sovereignly on our own and

from there you can then start to talk

you know what is your value system what

would you like to do what kind of

generosity do we want to have with each

other do you want do we want a

relationship for some people

non-monogamy consensual non-monogamy is

part of a value system I want stability

and commitment but I also want freedom

and self-expression and I want to be

able to do this in a way that is not

going to threaten us and make us be

unfaithful I actually want us to have

more honesty more transparency and

therefore maybe more longevity than my

boomer parents did when they did the old

model and split up after the fraca

so your homework tonight I want all of

you to consider at a minimum having one

of these conversations if you're in a

relationship ask one of these questions

see what happens

intimate conversation between partners

to open each other's erotic minds and

the Institute will then take a survey of

how many of you ended up breaking up as

a result and how many of you actually

deepen your relationship and what do

some big data analysis and don't you

think people open their bodies but they

don't open their minds to each other

it's also sometimes very strange you

know if anything is true about this

moment it is it's time for your

questions I think we have some

microphone runners I can't see them

because can we get more light in the

house please

and so just find the microphone runners

and there we go

and sorry if the next microphone person

can just get it to tee up the next

person while we're waiting go ahead

sorry one more note these have to be

real questions very short ending in a

question mark and I will cut you off

ruthlessly if they're not of what you

just said how would you handle that yes

it requires a certain level of

confidence to be able to have those

conversations it requires a

vulnerability

it requires intimacy it requires all the

things that we want to have in our

intimate relationships yeah and you

develop it over time you try you see the

response you read about it you it's an

integrated conversation as part of

something it's not like you it's not the

talk it's part of many talks and in that

conversation you sometimes say you know

I've that's very scary to me I feel very

insecure about that I would I would hate

it I you know it taps into a deep fear

of mine and and you want a partner who

then says I get it you know and that

that opening up of that vulnerability of

what am I to you

Who am I to you am i enough to you can

somebody else take my place is part of

modern love the day we replaced arranged

marriages with no choice to free choice

marriages in which basically the

relationship lasts as long as the

quality of the relationship demands it

we have put ourselves in a more

vulnerable place yes that is the model

that we are in at this moment

next question hold the microphone very

close

where is it okay I have the microphone

so you talked a lot about I'm over here

if you want to see you talked a lot

about it being different today that our

partner is someone that we rely on for

everything and that we count on to be

everything for us and I'm wondering if

you could talk a little bit more about

is that inherently bad or is there a way

to have that but to also balance it out

and how you would recommend that we do

that where are you here you know you're

not gonna hear me say good and bad like

this it's it's it's it's an interesting

evolution it's an amazing evolution

it puts relationships in a state of a

tremendous burden no I do not think

personally that one person can satisfy

you with everything I think that the

marriages even the best marriages may

have certain things that they will never

provide you with and then the question

is what do you do and maybe you say and

make a compromise it's a choice and we

the choice comes a loss but they did we

do know that relationships that are

nurtured by many other friends mentors

families a community that live in an

ecosystem do a lot better than

relationships where people have only

each other as an echo chamber we don't

think echo chambers are particularly

good in society as a whole and they're

not particularly good in a couple either

you need another point of view you need

to be able to go and vent about your

partner to somebody else who tells you

I've got the same situation now let's go

have a drink you know and then you go

home and then you feel better because

you were able to commiserate and and and

and it normalizes you it says this is

part of life this is living and you get

ups and downs and frustrations and in

moments when you think I can't do

another day like this and then the next

morning you wake up and you say I'm so

happy to wake up next to you and you go

into this kind of a thing

the insularity of modern coupledom to me

I think it's complicated people are

constantly saying to other people go

through this what's life like at the

neighbor's house you know am I alone

with this however other people dealt

with this and instead of an abundance of

resources of how one does that so that

is my point of view but I think the

research at this point is backing this

calibration of expectations

diversification of relationships are two

essential components that will

strengthen relationships someone in this

zone I have a mic in Chapter 11 in your

book you're talking about the love and

was split yes is it curable and how long

it takes

chapter 11 the segment people begin to

know better than me where things are due

it's also the bankruptcy the love lust

split is it's it's not uncommon it's not

so easy to explain to you in two minutes

you really this is one of the few times

that I would say you need to go read

about it it's one of the most difficult

things to do to change I have to say

it's the love lust split the inability

to integrate desire and maybe just

define the phenomenon and just like say

the observation she came from Freud you

know early on where he loves he can't

desire he can't lust it's a split it's a

split in without men and women have by

which they find it virtually you know in

it's a split that comes from many

sources so we're not gonna go there but

the notion when I see a person who

deeply loves their partner is is deeply

intimate connected is affectionate but

can touch hear but can't touch there

there it becomes sexual and this like

the Berlin Wall comes up it's a ironclad

it's just it feels

kibou it's when sex feels taboo with the

person that you love either because they

have become overly familial they have

that they have become to parental for

you and we do not want sex in the family

you know

so when certain a certain kind of

attachment a certain kind of connection

sometimes becomes so familiarized that

it makes sex impossible with that same

person that's the love lust split it's

very difficult to change I have to say

and Sigmund Freud will also be signing

books hi yes my question you said

something that fire needs air yes so I

am complaining to my girlfriends about

men not trying to talk to us in person

and so forth and how do I encourage my

male friends to go and make a compliment

to a woman and go ask a woman out if

such a conversation in person because

I've tried to talk to I try to do to

start encouraging them but I still can't

motivate them enough because they're all

doing it online yes

I mean it's they see plenty of beautiful

women out can't you just say you're

beautiful it's not about making me

uncomfortable is about making a

compliment I think we need to take trips

to Argentina leave that one right there

where's the next microphone I mean

that's really in a nutshell is it's a

you can't just say it it's a it's really

a cultural thing you know I went to give

a talk at Wharton last week and this

young student is waiting for me on the

street and he's opening the door of the

taxi and he's opening the door of the

building and I said to him enjoy it

while it lasts because the next one is

gonna tell you what you think I can't

open the door myself

I said you hit the right person Bigelow

as much as you want with me based on

your research would you say that the

motives for infidelity are different

from men and women I grew up in Latin

America and there's a I would say a myth

whereas men look for sex whereas women

look for connection or emotion are the

motives different

yes that's such a great question so the

traditional stereotypic view is twofold

one is men cheat for sex because they're

bored they need novelty variety and all

of that and women cheat because they're

lonely and hungry for intimacy and the

second part of course of this very same

thing is let's really remember since you

are from Latin America as well that this

sub conversation has never been a

gender-equal affair

I mean men have practically had a

license to cheat worldwide and women

still have nine countries where they can

be killed just for straying so when we

say that women cheat when they're

miserable and when they want out

is it because that's really what

motivates them to cheat or is it because

the consequences have been so dire

ostracism destitution pregnancy

mortality you bet she needs to really be

miserable before she takes the risk he

didn't have the consequences were so

massively different that of course he

could do it for much more frivolous

reasons what we don't have a clue what

women want we only know what women value

and what women have been compliant to do

we have never known what women really

want you really have to go look in their

affairs actually sometimes to know what

they what if truly want but I think that

once the consequences will be equal we

will know if the motives are

fundamentally different my my personal

research when I do research it's really

clinical research it's it's 1,500

letters after the TED talk it's that I

am NOT a an empirical researcher of the

other kind but no I truly in the way

this notion you know yes there are

certain men who really just want to go

and have sex but even hit-and-run

sex has meaning I don't believe sex is

ever just sex especially when you want

to strip it of everything that's a very

different way you know to make something

mean nothing takes a lot of feelings you

understand so the when you go to the

hooker there is a whole story behind

that what it is that you always ask what

is this you being you paying her for and

sometimes you don't just pay her to come

you're paying her to leave you know it's

a different thing what is it that you're

looking for there what is the story what

is the so the Act doesn't tell me

anything the meaning and the story will

tell me what is going on yeah well I'm

from New Jersey I'll leave it up to you

to figure out what that means but you

know I get what you're saying I get what

you're saying about the value of

openness and communication and so forth

but but what about mystery and intrigue

and novelty and unpredictability I mean

surely there has to be a balance between

these things and you know would you

comment are there certain areas or how

do you maintain that in the face of this

drive for total transparency my whole

first book meeting captivity is exactly

about that it is about the mystery it is

about the intrigue it is about you know

the the opposite it is about privacy

actually the privacy that exists between

secrecy and transparency when I am

talking I don't necessarily think about

it in that we need to put everything out

there and it has to be all out in the

open I think that there is a way to to

play with this the concept of that is

really behind this is the playfulness

it's not about you know an inventory of

my of my fantasies it's just that there

is a certain there is a certain for some

people for some people there's a certain

deep intimacy in just kind of saying you

know if we didn't if you were not with

me where would you be what would your

life look like who's the one you would

be drawn to to

you know if you met me today would you

still be interested it's those kind of

conversations sometimes it's not about

putting everything out there and I am I

am very much in line with your way of

thinking so it speaks to me but if none

of this is for everybody I think the

most important thing in this whole

conversation is there isn't a one size

fits all you know for some people

predictability is about as much as

they've ever hope to have in their lives

because they grew up in chaos they grew

up in massive unpredictability and to

have a secure predictable reliable

landscape in front of them is major more

than they ever dreamed about so for some

people it's the other side that they're

longing for the unknown the exploration

the discovery all of that but not

everybody wants to live in that place

and the problem is that sometimes you

have one of each in the same couple with

time for two more questions so obviously

from some of your earliest lectures and

I've been following for a long time but

you speak a lot about desire and I guess

I wanted to you know why is that

forbidden why is it forbidden so erotic

right can we do something in take to a

few and then see let's do it why is it

forbidden so erotic yeah they have fast

microphone action here okay we got one

more I just wanted to know what would be

your advice to not repeat or to like be

in a certain mindset at the beginning of

a relationship so as to start in you and

like what would be the best steps yeah

so okay I'm hearing you say that we have

to be honest about the limitations I'm

way up here in the back I'm hearing you

say that we have to be honest honest

about the limitations of monogamy and

sometimes being honest and having that

commerce

can actually make those limitations more

tolerable but I guess that once you get

past that my question is what what about

a workable model of non-monogamy in your

experience have relationships been able

to flourish when whatever you want to

call it infidelity or polyamory has been

acted upon on a sustained first

sustained period of time how do you

rebuild that trust once you've had

infidelity why is the forbidden so

erotic that's the whole story of Adam

and Eve isn't it there is something in

breaking rules that gives you a feeling

of freedom and power and when you do

something that you're expected to do

sometimes it's wonderful and sometimes

it starts to feel like it's compliance

especially in the realm of sex

especially actually for women

once it's what she's supposed to she

often doesn't want to because then it

feels like she's just doing what she's

been socialized to do pleasing the

forbidden is the note you know when when

I when you limp child runs and takes

something and then looks at you with

utter Glee because they know that

they've done something that they're not

supposed to they feel on top of the

world for a moment it's that you know

but it's not just in the realm of

affairs in general there is something

about about leaps transgressions that is

that is enlivening that is the easy word

for it how do you rebuild trust slowly

over time with enormous affirmations

from your partner that one that they

experienced deep remorse for hurting you

that they feel guilty for what they've

done maybe they don't feel guilty for

the affair themselves itself but they

feel guilty for what they did to you

it's two things

that they are able to be accountable and

take responsibility and that they're

able to show you that it deeply care

about the relationship that you have to

just not do it again is not really going

to breed trust to have a surveillance

system with passwords and GPS doesn't

necessarily Brit Rus totalitarianism is

not the best system for trust but to

really feel deeply affirmed again to

reclaim your value to feel once again

that you are really important in that

person's life and to reclaim your sense

of wholeness so that you're not just the

victim of the affair that is where you

begin to bring trust again

you know Trust is a leap of faith it's

your ability to live with the unknown if

you have to know all the details you

can't trust so you need what you want to

trust is that your partner is back with

you and this is where he or she wants to

be how you negotiate non-monogamy there

are many ways that many people that have

monogamish or consensually open

relationships or ethical na monogamy or

polyamory I think that more and more it

is they are you know it is one of the

many models of an entrepreneurial spirit

that wants to have a certain freedom and

a certain lack of structure and things

like that

now I was asked earlier I was on Terry

Gross today and she was also asking me

you know can they work and I just said

no it's very interesting I spent 20

years working with intermarriage

interracial intercultural

inter-religious couples and at the time

people kept saying that doesn't work

because they were new because they were

breaking a norm because they were

marrying outside of the of the

traditional mandate and and because they

would never speak it about it out loud

and when you are the only one in the

neighborhood I bet you you have more

pressure on you how many open

relationships actually speak about it

openly the majority hide it they hide it

because they would anticipate the

judgment I think success and the

workability of things also has to do

with the mainstreaming of something the

more isolated and hidden it is the more

likely that it will be problematic in

general when people are innovators

of all kinds in life but especially in

relationships those who do it well do it

very well

but it's not for everybody to succeed at

it this is what happens to innovators

the ones who do it

well are surpassing in quality

maybe the relationships that have

existed until today but the vast

majority may not be able to do it yet or

adoro doesn't want to and I think that

that kind of I think you you answered

more than any of us could hope for you

know I think we're living in this moment

that is so extraordinary in so many ways

in one really big obvious horrible way

and then I'm sorry to interject this and

I hope it's not but I find it's so

interesting that everybody keeps talking

about the Weinstein era why don't we

start the story with the Trump and I

think you're right that's where the

story began all right

many of you probably saw today a big

press conference where three of trumps

accusers I shouldn't say told their

story because they were actually

retelling their story and they were

essentially telling the story of how

their story got ignored the first time

and maybe second and fourth and fifth

time they they told it it's

extraordinary that that the president

United States has impunity on this thing

that is purging so many other male

predators from all kinds of other

positions of power as we navigate that

story the story of our changing families

the story of this new and very powerful

female rage the story of infidelity you

it's just coming out right there so I'm

not new you know it's just finally like

I think there are we are very blessed to

have you as a guide to these times so

please join me

and I think we're signing some books

have come join us and say hi

[Applause]