Here.: This Transcript Was Exported On Jun 09, 2019 - View Latest Version

This transcript was exported on Jun 09, 2019 - view latest version here.
Sean: 00:00:01 I'm very proud of myself.
Alex: 00:00:05 With your archaic cellphone.
Sean: 00:00:05 Don't judge me.
Alex: 00:00:10 [crosstalk 00:00:10].
Mark: 00:00:11 What's wrong with our telephone?
Sean: 00:00:13 It's many years old, and needs to be upgraded.
Mark: 00:00:16 Oh, okay. I wouldn't have guessed.
Alex: 00:00:21 We just had a conversation [crosstalk 00:00:21].
Mark: 00:00:21 Okay.
Sean: 00:00:22 So, Alex has prepared some questions, and-
Alex: 00:00:25 I've got ... yeah.
Sean: 00:00:25 We can start there, but I'd love for you to just [inaudible
00:00:28].
Alex: 00:00:31 Right, and a lot of the questions I originally did have, I've been
able to pull through editorial, through Early to Rise blog posts,
even AWAI. And I did consult with [Julie 00:00:40] and [Tim
00:00:42], maybe some questions or clarifications that they
wanted as well. Let's just start, so you said plenty of times
before that, a lot of people still get the big idea wrong. Why do
you think that is?
Mark: 00:00:53 Well, historically, they get it wrong because the big idea is I
believe, came from David Ogilvy. And he was using it to describe
something in advertising, in the advertising world, that it wasn't
actually an idea at all, he was using the term loosely, it was a-
Alex: 00:01:25 It was the ticking in a car, right? That was-
Mark: 00:01:27 Well, it's ... Let me see how I could put it. I actually think of it as
an image, Ezra Pound said that an image was an emotional and
intellectual complex in an instant of time. And that's how I think
he meant it. He meant that ... substitute for image an
advertisement, per se, or a theme, it's an idea.
Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 1 of 27

Transcript by Rev.com
Mark: 00:01:59 The Marlboro Man, for example, what is that? It's a guy on a
horse, smoking a cigarette. And that has ... Is that an idea? It's
not really an idea at all, right? It's a Gestalt, it's a ... I don't know
what the term is; in poetry, it'd be called an image. William
Carlos Williams' famous Red Wheelbarrow ... I can't remember
the poem-
Sean: 00:02:26 [crosstalk 00:02:26] Red Wheelbarrow-
Mark: 00:02:26 [crosstalk 00:02:26].
Sean: 00:02:26 [crosstalk 00:02:26].
Mark: 00:02:26 Right. So, that's what he meant by it. He meant you get this kind
of idea for an imagistic, emotional ... so there's an emotional
content to the Marlboro, which is independence, you know, "If I
smoke Marlboro, I'm going to be manly, in an independent
cowboy-type of way," which feels good.
Mark: 00:02:57 The idea is very ... The idea component is almost like a negative
idea; in other words, there are some things that you would say
can a doctor smoke Marlboros? Yeah, a doctor can. But can a
home decorator? Nah, probably not. So there's not really a lot
of idea content.
Mark: 00:03:20 So because of that, what happened was that when it was first
started, in our industry, you never heard of it; Bill Bonner
actually introduced it, he liked that idea. But what it really
meant was that, in the advertising world, is that when you got
something that really worked, [inaudible 00:03:47] The Most
Interesting Man in the World, all these kind of advertisements,
what determined whether it was a big idea? The big meant
whether it worked or not. It didn't mean whether your idea was
a big idea or small idea. You follow me?
Alex: 00:04:03 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mark: 00:04:05 So, the big idea was you have all these images out there, these
advertising images, and one that really takes off, that's the big
idea, that's really what he meant by it. I don't know whether he
ever analyzed it, but that's what, deductively, it means.
Mark: 00:04:25 [inaudible 00:04:25], they weren't things that you could define,
they were things that just happened to work. So what happened
was when Bill introduced it to the world, almost 30 years ago,
Bill took it literally, he meant a big actual idea, like debt is an
immoral cause of economic destruction; this is a thesis, it's an
actual intellectual idea. And big, by Bill, means macroeconomic

world-shattering important.
Mark: 00:05:07 So what happened was because Bill introduced this, and
because he was writing packages like that, in our industry,
people all of a sudden started talking about big ideas. And they
were associated with Bill, first, but Gene Schwartz [inaudible
00:05:24], everybody started using the term because everybody
was familiar with it.
Mark: 00:05:29 But instead of using it the way Bill meant to use it, most people
actually, well they did a little bit of a different thing, they went
halfway there. They thought there was an idea, an actual idea,
and ... Let me tell it to you differently.
Mark: 00:05:51 So at Agora, when I went in there, I wasn't really into the big
idea idea, I was about what worked, and I was a little idea guy,
that's how I made ... although I had some ... you could argue
that The Oxford Club was a big idea package, but only in the
wrong sense.
Mark: 00:06:11 The Oxford Club was ... it had ideas connected to it, but it
wasn't based on the big thesis about how to make money, or
how to ... but that's what Bill believed in, and Bill liked, and Bill,
still to this day, he judges the quality [inaudible 00:06:33] based
on your ability to come up with a big idea, but in his way. For
him, a big idea is an actual thought, it's a thesis, it's an
intellectual thesis that you put out to the world, that stimulates
people to think, to discuss, to come up with an antithesis, and
then to move on, and the intellectual ... and that's what Bill has
been done in his whole career.
Mark: 00:06:56 But what happened was Bill was there trying ... Agora was Bill's
copyrighting business, he had all these [inaudible 00:07:05]. The
deal was that he wrote the front end copy, and you guys will ...
Sean will appreciate this, for sure, you may not know the
economics of copy. His deal was, "Look, you'll give me your ...
your newsletter, right now, is shit, and it's not making any
money. I'll write and fund your promotions, and you can keep
all the renewals, I just want half of the profits I make from
writing the promotion for you," that's how Bill [inaudible
00:07:36] possible to do, for anybody. But Bill is such a good
copywriter, he did it.
Mark: 00:07:43 And when I joined him, that's what he was doing, and he was
writing big idea packages, [inaudible 00:07:48] reputation. But
when I came in there, and now I realize what happened, when I
came in there, I was probably like Sean probably does after

[inaudible 00:07:58], "This sounds like bullshit," [crosstalk
00:08:00].
Sean: 00:08:00 Have I ever done that? [crosstalk 00:08:01].
Mark: 00:08:00 Believe me, I made a presentation to ... do you know [Alvado
00:08:07]?
Sean: 00:08:07 Yeah.
Mark: 00:08:07 Yeah, to his group, and he was sitting a little bit behind me. And
I thought I saw people smiling, and I thought ... I really accused
him of ... he was going like this, "This is a bad idea," he was
editing as I went along.
Sean: 00:08:28 [Alvado's 00:08:28] a lovely guy, [crosstalk 00:08:29].
Mark: 00:08:29 Yeah, he is, he's great. No, he's great. I don't think he did, but I
accused him of it. But they have a ... So I was telling him about
all these little idea things, "This is how you make it work," you
know, "Three things you could say to your broker, to double
your ..." you know, all that. They're not even ideas, they're little
ideas.
Mark: 00:08:47 So there's this huge debate. So because of ... I was using that,
somehow this "big idea" term got applied to our business for
small idea packages that are successful. So that's the way it's
generally used, which kind of brings us back to the David Ogilvy
idea; in other words, if you come up with a lead, and it works
really well, that's an idea. But that's very unhelpful; the whole
reason that Bill tried to bring his concept in was because there's
another way of writing packages, the indirect way, which is
more important.
Mark: 00:09:30 And, often, when you're writing in an indirect way, having an
idea matters, an actual idea. "It's not this, it's this," you know.
So, generally speaking, when people are talking about "What's
the big idea?" they're not even trying to think of an idea. I think
it's very valuable to think of an idea when you're writing a
package, but it's not necessarily going to solve the package, it's
a component.
Mark: 00:09:58 If you have a ... Let me put it to you this way: let's think about
health. In health business, is the health business a big idea
business? The answer's no. Basically, this how it-

Sean: 00:10:16 [crosstalk 00:10:16].
Mark: 00:10:15 There you go. Here's his health: cancer? And then whatever
your answer is. Problem, solution. And it's always cancer, cancer
[inaudible 00:10:26].
Sean: 00:10:27 [crosstalk 00:10:27].
Mark: 00:10:28 [inaudible 00:10:28] health business right now. But there is an
idea component to it, and the idea component ... it helps if you
have an idea component. You can just say, "Here, take these
pills, and you'll never have ..." and testimonial after testimony,
you could try to make it work that way. But it's way better if you
have an idea, an actually medically-sound idea about why the
therapy that you're going to recommend works, and that that
idea itself is kind of cutting edge, you know, tipping point-type
of idea, then you're going to get a lot of it. Okay?
Mark: 00:11:03 For instance, in the health area, when we started 20 years ago,
antioxidants were the whole big thing. Today, it's more like we
know that inflammation is the real problem, and inflammation
is causes by stress, and stress is the ... the new frontier is going
to be, I think, oxygen.
Mark: 00:11:20 When I want to talk to health people about ideas, and these are
big ideas, like oxygen is ... the reason why you're in pain, the
reason you're dying is there's not enough oxygen getting into
certain parts of your body. Now I don't even know if this is
scientifically entirely true, but I've read enough stuff to know
that's plausible. And for somebody in my ... and usually when I
talk to medical people about it, they don't contradict me, so as a
copywriter, that's all I need to know. No, I would certainly like
to believe ... and I believe it in my bones, you know, I believe
that-
Sean: 00:11:57 Your oxygen deprived bones.
Mark: 00:11:58 Yeah, exactly. In fact, you know, it's funny because I had ... I
think I got this idea a long time because I had an X-ray because I
was going to get a back operation, and the guy asked me if I
smoked, and I smoke cigars, and he goes, "Yeah, I can tell by
your bones, these are spots that come from lack of oxygen in
your bones, and that can cause the pain."
Mark: 00:12:20 Anyway, the point of this all is that ideas are very important,
and they can really help us. Seventy percent of the copy, even ...
in the financial area, ideas can be the most important thing,
because you have macroeconomic views, people buy financial

[inaudible 00:12:40] for political reasons.
Mark: 00:12:42 If you're in politics, in direct marketing politics, ideas are super
important, and nonprofits, and so on, ideas are important there.
So there's some parts of our industry where ideas are super
important. Health, it's important, but not that important. And
then you get to selling [tchotchkes 00:13:01], and cars, and
stuff, and they're probably not important at all, although
maybe.
Mark: 00:13:07 But to show a car moving with champagne on his ... that's not
an idea, that's something else. If you buy a car for Tesla,
because you want to save the world, that's an idea. Okay? So
that's the whole thing is I wanted to tell people that because if
they keep thinking that a big idea is just whatever the hell
works, it's not helpful because you can't replicate whatever the
hell worked. Everything that works is a combination of 50
things, in promotion, half of which are [inaudible 00:13:40]
outsiders, it's just the copywriter's instincts at the time he's
writing, staying close to this idea, his person, and he gets it
right.
Mark: 00:13:49 So what can you replicate? You can replicate big ideas because
you can analyze them and understand them. And maybe they're
going to help you, and if they do help you, then it's something
you could repeat, and so that's why I think it's very important to
understand the difference between an actual big idea ... first of
all, an actual idea, it doesn't have to be big, and then a big idea.
Mark: 00:14:14 And a big idea is big to me in two ways: the idea itself is enough
that it fills your imagination, it feels exciting. And, also, it should
be big, in the sense of enduring, like it's not ... although I would
certainly be happy to make a bundle of money on an idea that's
going to be gone in two weeks. I'd much prefer ideas that are
less ephemeral, that I can use for a year or two.
Mark: 00:14:40 And, usually, in the marketplace, in the marketplace of ideas,

and in any industry, there are its own marketplace of ideas that
come and go, they [inaudible 00:14:56] for a year or two. Look,
even in the area of fashion ... I may be stretching this too much.
Anyway, I like fashion, let me put it this way.
Mark: 00:15:09 Like fashion, ideas come into prominence, and then they fall
back. And you want to be aware of what ideas are affecting, like
in fashion, let's short skirts, long skirts, you know, what's
moving, what's the trend, you know. You need to be aware of it
because you always want to be on the uphill trend, it's so much

easier than trying to sell fashion on the wrong side of things.
Mark: 00:15:36 And the same is true with ideas, that if you are in the
information publishing business, there are going to be ideas
that are trending up and trending down, and it's way, way
better to get an idea that's trending up.
Alex: 00:15:50 How do you catch that, though? I think it was [inaudible
00:15:53] talking about getting on the wave before everyone
else does, how do you [crosstalk 00:15:57]?
Mark: 00:15:57 The main thing is you ... It's like an ironic, everything is ironic.
But you have to be plugged in enough that you know what the
actual arguments are. You know, in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, what
people are talking about is this damn footlocking that
everybody's doing right now, it's a big pain in the ass, what are
we going to do about it, should you change the rules, and I'm
aware that that's an interesting argument. A hundred kilos? Not
interesting anymore. We talked about that [inaudible 00:16:27],
you just learned it.
Mark: 00:16:33 So how do you come up with it? At one hand, you have to be
involved in the conversation, you have to be reading what other
people are reading. But in the other hand, it's a danger, you
have to stay innocent, you have to ... This is a problem with a lot
of copywriters, and a lot of editorial people, if you get too into
the industry, then what happens is you're following your own
level of interest, but you don't want to do that, you always want
to be interested in what your readers [inaudible 00:17:04],
which is, generally, fairly introductory.
Mark: 00:17:08 In different areas, it's actually ... you know, for natural health,
believe it or not, they're more sophisticated than your
[inaudible 00:17:14] because of ... what happens is you read
about ... when you're in natural health, you read about the
themes, like antioxidants, and so on. And then you start reading
about what are the good antioxidants. You already know this.
Like, what is better, berries or [inaudible 00:17:28]?
Alex: 00:17:28 Berries.
Mark: 00:17:29 Berries, right. So we already know that, but, believe me, 15
years ago, nobody even knew that, nobody talked about it. You
know that wine's [inaudible 00:17:36] bad antioxidants. And so
you have to be aware of the current conversation so that you're
not writing a story that says "Berries are good for," right now.
You're not going to create a promotion where your idea is that

berries are fantastic because they're, blackberries in particular,
are good antioxidants.
Mark: 00:17:55 Because these guys already know that, they've already read
that. Somehow that's easier to understand than trying to
remember what selling a put means. And, financially, that's ...
Luckily, with my brain, I'm always a beginner in financial, I've
just stayed there, and that's helped me-
Alex: 00:18:13 [crosstalk 00:18:13].
Mark: 00:18:15 [crosstalk 00:18:15] again? Explain it to me, [Jay 00:18:16]. And
so once I get it, I can re-explain it in a way with enthusiasm. So
that's how our business really works, is that you have to
maintain a kind of innocence about it, and enthusiasm about it,
but you have to be reading what people are talking about, at
that level.
Mark: 00:18:32 And so, obviously, if ... There must be social media places where
you can go to find out what those kind of arguments are. The
other thing you could do, of course, is just to find out, this is the
old way, what promotions are actually working, and do they
have ideas in them, and if they do, where is that going, and so
on. If you think of politics, it's very easy to see how ideas come
in and out of fashion, [inaudible 00:18:59].
Alex: 00:18:59 Would you say that coming up with big ideas in finance is
relatively more easy than in the health sector, because it's not
so constantly evolving?
Sean: 00:19:08 Before we move on to that-
Alex: 00:19:09 Sorry.
Sean: 00:19:10 Can I ask a couple of follow-up questions?
Mark: 00:19:11 Right.
Sean: 00:19:13 In particular, you know, we were on this "How do you catch the
wave?" And you listed basically two, a couple of different times.
One is [inaudible 00:19:20] reading what your readers are
reading. The other is to not [inaudible 00:19:26] knowledge.
Would you say that there's any other tip that you would give to
somebody who might want to be looking for a trend [crosstalk
00:19:33]?

Mark: 00:19:32 Yeah, well what I'm talking about right now is look at the
promotions that are working in your area. Are we talking about
promotion, or the marketing or advertising? What are we
talking about here?
Alex: 00:19:42 The big idea [crosstalk 00:19:44].
Sean: 00:19:44 [crosstalk 00:19:44].
Mark: 00:19:45 Yeah. So, yeah, be aware of the ... I recommend this, in third
place, because this is what most people do, they're lazy, and
they only look at the advertisements that work, and they try to
knock it off. But they may be coming too late in the wave when
they do that.
Mark: 00:20:02 So that's a very good shortcut, but you've got to make sure that
you're not [inaudible 00:20:08], like they're coming out right
now with cannabis promotion for stocks, right? [inaudible
00:20:13] they're the most innovate people, really, in Agora, but
they're so conservative [inaudible 00:20:18] the only time they'll
ever get into any subject, is after it's completely died, and
[inaudible 00:20:23] try to make some money, and then they
don't make that much money. Yeah, so that's a good example.
That's a topic, it's not really an idea.
Mark: 00:20:35 And I want to make sure that I'm making this point, too. Bill
would like the whole world just to write big ideas. Seventy
percent of Agora's success are small ideas, or no ideas at all. I
don't believe that big ideas are the secret. I think that the secret
is emotionally compelling copy, and that's it.
Mark: 00:21:02 Now, if you're going to have an idea, it has to be emotionally

compelling. It doesn't need to be intellectually sound, or it
doesn't need to be intellectually big. But the key is emotionally
compelling. So, in a way, that's a definition that, what do you
call it, it defines itself, it's a truism, in a way, [inaudible
00:21:23] emotionally compelling, the thing that works.
Mark: 00:21:25 But when we're creating content, we have our own internal
sense of what's emotionally compelling. And if the person that's
knocking off something is not using the instrument of his own
sensitivity, and that's a mistake, and that's why you will never
be ahead, you'll always be behind if that's your only tool; if your
only tool is looking at other promotions, and not really getting
them.

Mark: 00:21:51 But if you're not that way, if you're really trying to stay in the
debate, in the discussion of what's going on, in terms of ideas,
but also other things, topics are just as important as ideas, then
if you look at a promotion, you'll be able to say, "This is what's
working in this promotion; it's not the headline, it's this, I think."
Mark: 00:22:14 I remember that one time I, I mean, I practically saved Agora in
the very beginning because the big idea packages weren't
working anymore, that Bill was writing, which they don't, they
only work somethings. And then we were doing [inaudible
00:22:30] packages, [Phillips 00:22:31] was the big company.
Because I refused to be a knockoff guy myself, I always wanted
to come up with an idea, I was looking at their packages, and
they weren't as clever as our packages. And as I was looking,
there was something there. And I remember I noticed what it
was, is there are ... they pitched everything, it was very clever,
all their [inaudible 00:22:55] they pitched as being very
conservative people, very conservative investors that have just
discovered this very hot investment idea.
Mark: 00:23:05 And I thought, "That's the secret." It's just a little thing there,
but very powerful. Like, "I'm super conservative, but I'm going
to give you something that's really hot," it solves a big problem.
And so that was one of the things, they did something else,
related to structure, they were much better at providing
credibility, and also track record, than we were. But those three
things ... [inaudible 00:23:32].
Mark: 00:23:38 To me, the interesting thing is always what can be repeated,
what can I learn that can be repeated? So, the great thing about
ideas is that you can discover the idea ... if you're in the
conversation, you can come up with your own idea, "Here's the
next thing." Like, I would be doing this if I worked in health, I
would definitely be pushing oxygen, I think it's going to be the
next best thing, nobody's come out with it yet. I encouraged a
couple people to put it in their promos, but they're not really
getting it, they're not doing it in an exciting way, but I know it's
going to happen sooner or later.
Mark: 00:24:09 And it's so ... It's like sun to me. Look, I wrote a sun book 15
years ago because I ... first of all, it's impossible for the sun to be
bad for you, it's got to be good for you, it feels too good. And
the other thing is I know I can sell it. But we couldn't sell it 15
years ago, people just weren't ready. But people are ready now
for sun, they're starting to realize ... the media, it's a tipping
point, people are realizing that you do need sun, and things are
changing.
Mark: 00:24:33 So this is all about how to stay at the cutting edge, how to be
around the tipping point. And the thing to remember is that if
you are in that area, and you know what you're doing, and you
feel like I do, that this particular topic is important. And it's not
the copy, per se, or even the idea, per se, it's the articulation of
the idea. So even if the idea [inaudible 00:25:00]. So the idea is
"sun is good for you, not bad for you," it's a simple idea, but it's
a revolutionary idea, in a way, in a certain context.
Mark: 00:25:13 Just because you wrote that promotion doesn't mean it's going
to work, you have to articulate it in a way that works right now
in this current [crosstalk 00:25:20].
Alex: 00:25:20 How do you perfect that though? How do you figure out if
you're ... I mean, obviously you can try a promotion, and if
you're not articulating it correctly, it's not going to do well.
Obviously you want to be able to articulate it to prior to that, so
you can know it's going to do well. What are strategies that you
can do to ensure that?
Mark: 00:25:35 That's a good question. In the old days, there was only so much
you could but write the promotion and put it out there. But,
today, there are so many shorter forms and ways of getting
feedback that ... The main thing that you need to do is believe;
if you believe in it, keep believing in it, don't give up after one
try, like some people do.
Mark: 00:25:53 Keep putting it out there, with different articulations. Just
believe in the core idea, but understand that you have to have
the right articulation at the right moment. It's almost like ...
somehow I'm thinking uncertainty principle. But, Sean, here, I
would tell you what it was, but he probably actually knows what
it is, so I'm going to hold back for a while. [inaudible 00:26:20]?
Sean: 00:26:20 So the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is you can detect

directions of velocity, or you can detect positions-
Mark: 00:26:28 But not both, right.
Sean: 00:26:30 [crosstalk 00:26:30]. And that seems to be similar to what

you're doing here, which is [crosstalk 00:26:33] you've either
talked about the idea, or the articulation of the idea, but you'll
never have an idea of which one it was.
Mark: 00:26:43 Right. And it has to come at a certain place in time, because for
it to work ... So, anyways, so that's ... So what you need is ... you
need this internal belief in yourself, and I think that comes from
caring about the customer always, being connected with the

customer. You'll never get any energy to keep doing this, if
you're doing it externally. You will do it because you're trying to
connect, and make the person excited, and get them charged
up.
Mark: 00:27:10 And so you keep believing and you keep trying. And the good
news is that today, they are many ways of testing things that
are very inexpensive, to social media and so on, where you're
just getting feedback, and you're testing different [inaudible
00:27:29] about how he came up with the 4-hour workweek,
and that's an articulation of an idea, right?
Mark: 00:27:36 There's actually a book here, [crosstalk 00:27:38]. It's called the
4-Hour Workday, that he probably knocked off [crosstalk
00:27:44]-
Sean: 00:27:46 4-Hour Workweek, yeah.
Mark: 00:27:47 That's it.
Sean: 00:27:47 [crosstalk 00:27:47].
Mark: 00:27:47 Yeah. But I'm telling you, I found a book in an old bookstore, I
wonder if I have it here. And he must have knocked it off
because it's called the 4-Hour Workday, which is way more
realistic, right?
Sean: 00:28:02 Yeah.
Mark: 00:28:02 Anyway.
Sean: 00:28:03 Well that's similar to what was going on in the early [inaudible
00:28:07] with, first it was 11-minute ads, and then there was
10-minute ads, and then there was-
Mark: 00:28:11 Four-minute ads.
Sean: 00:28:12 Four-minute ads.
Alex: 00:28:12 And then there's actually a meme now that says like, "30 second
ads," and it's a picture of a really hefty man against [inaudible
00:28:19]-
Mark: 00:28:18 Against what?

Alex: 00:28:20 Against, like, it's almost like chicken wire, and he sat against
[crosstalk 00:28:24].
Mark: 00:28:29 Look at this, [inaudible 00:28:30]. This is the book that my
father taught Ulysses. See, these are his [inaudible 00:28:38].
Sean: 00:28:38 What did he have to say about the [inaudible 00:28:42]
chapter?
Mark: 00:28:43 I don't know.
Alex: 00:28:45 You mean you didn't read every note?
Mark: 00:28:54 [inaudible 00:28:54].
Alex: 00:28:59 I don't know about that.
Mark: 00:28:59 [inaudible 00:28:59]. But how much fun is it to be able to look at
this, and he's still alive.
Alex: 00:29:07 Okay, so let's talk about the components of a big idea. So we've
addressed timeliness, right, and when you can't-
Sean: 00:29:13 Before we do that ... actually, he made a distinction between a

regular idea and a big idea. And you described, effectively, what
a big idea is, not only was it the intellectual and emotional
apparent [crosstalk 00:29:26]-
Mark: 00:29:25 An intellectual [crosstalk 00:29:29].
Sean: 00:29:31 But you didn't really get into what just a regular idea is, and I
imagine [crosstalk 00:29:35] reading this kind of book would be
wanting to, one, know the distinguishing marks, and, two, might
be under the impression that their idea [crosstalk 00:29:46].
Mark: 00:29:46 I do try to ... So I don't know if you looked up in the dictionary
what "idea" is, but it is a thought, an articulated thought, that is
perceived through the rational mind, that's what an idea is. An
idea isn't "That was scary," "How pretty this picture is," or an
idea isn't if I say, "I can make you a million dollars," that's not an
idea.
Mark: 00:30:24 So, once again, I'm trying to ... it may sound like I'm being,
what's the word, semantic, these are semantics, but it's not. If
you say, "I can show you how to double your money," that's a
promise, it's not an idea. If you say, "Let me tell you the story

about the girl that I doubled her IQ [inaudible 00:30:57]," that's

a story.
Mark: 00:30:59 An idea is an actual idea, like The Plague of the Black Debt,
that's not the idea, that's the title of the story, but the idea
behind the Plague of the Black Debt is the thesis that we have
gotten ourselves into a meltdown, in terms of debt, and our
economy is about to completely collapse, and there's nothing
we can do about it now, for these reasons.
Alex: 00:31:31 So it's not necessarily directly stated?
Mark: 00:31:34 I would say that it's something that you can grapple with,
intellectually. I mean, you would think that it would be easier
to, but ... I'll just say that, it could be debated. If it's an idea, it
can be debated. But not in the way that, "I'm going to make you
a million dollars," you can debate that, you know what I'm
saying? Like, if you say that it's better for the government to
own property than for private people to own, that's an idea that
can debated, that's an idea. Like I said, 70-80% of the things that
are solved are not solved with ideas.
Alex: 00:32:13 Right. And that brings me to the next point. I think you either
told Julia or Tim, "Not all products need to have an idea behind
them, to sell."
Mark: 00:32:20 Yeah, most don't.
Alex: 00:32:24 Why is that? Because [crosstalk 00:32:24]?
Mark: 00:32:24 Because we don't buy things for rational reasons, for the most
part. We buy things because we feel like they're going to fill
some holes, right?
Alex: 00:32:33 Yeah.
Mark: 00:32:34 And so you don't need ideas for that. When you see somebody
selling jewelry, and you see perfume, and you see he's a super
handsome guy [inaudible 00:32:54] a woman as she walks by
down the street, is there an idea there? I mean, you could say
the idea is that if you wear this perfume, you will be ... but
that's not really an idea, it's a promise, it's not something that
you would debate, other than say, "I tried the perfume, and it
doesn't work."
Mark: 00:33:13 So you're not really ... you're using it ... to me, that's more like
going back to the image. I mean, this is interesting to me. Now
I'm going back to the image, that's how I [inaudible 00:33:25]

idea. But you could ... Yeah, because he's not being intellectual
about that. But it's a ... I don't know. I don't know, we don't
have [inaudible 00:33:33], but we should invent it, which is to
say, "What is that," when you have that thing. It's not really an
idea. It is kind of an image, it's really an image, and the image
has an idea embedded in it that can be articulated because if
you do articulate it, it would be ridiculous.
Mark: 00:33:49 It's very different from an actual idea, leading with an idea,
which is what Bill likes to do. Bill has been talking about the
[inaudible 00:33:59], this is a thesis, it's one way to market
certain kinds of information products.
Mark: 00:34:06 But if you ... My main ... The point I'm trying to make with all
this is if you just say big idea, big idea, everybody runs on a big
idea, what is a big idea? Nobody knows. It's whatever the hell is
working; they try to knock it off, that's completely not helpful. It
is helpful to understand what an idea is, it is helpful to
understand that when you make a promise, that's not an idea,
or if you tell a story, that's not an idea. But there could be an
idea lurking around, or several ideas lurking around under there
that you're going to touch on, or you may actually articulate at
some point.
Sean: 00:34:41 Let me ... because I think I see what you're trying to do, and
establishing [inaudible 00:34:48] criteria for ideas, because you
have this sort of non-idea-driven package, or marketing piece,
or copy, or what have you. And then you have an idea-driven
piece, and then you have a big idea-driven piece. And it seems
like for a ... like, no ideas are [inaudible 00:35:03], it's all
emotions, it's all trying to tap into people's irrational impulses,
and things like that.
Sean: 00:35:08 Whereas an idea-drive piece is more talking to the [inaudible

00:35:12] prefrontal cortex, the part that's responsible for
judgment. And you're trying to overcome whatever objections
they may have. A big idea seems to be a combination of both of
those things, where it's a big idea articulated in such a way that
it speaks directly to your emotional center of the brain. Like,
there's a new railroad across America, or something like that,
it's an idea-
Mark: 00:35:34 Yeah, I think that's true, but I wouldn't break it into three
because any idea that's going to work is going to have to do
that. To persuade ... Persuasion, at some level, emotional, and
that's why I call it an emotionally compelling idea. If you're
going to include ... It's almost like this whole big thing, maybe
we should wipe out the idea of big ideas because I was just
saying there are ...
Mark: 00:35:58 When I was describing big ideas for Bill, if you came at Bill with
a clever medium-sized idea, like options, as a strategy, he would
be bored, that's medium ... in fact, he used to criticize my stuff
as gimmicky, it was saving our business, but, for Bill, it was
gimmicky because it wasn't interesting. He just wants an
overarching concept that he can talk about for a long ...
Mark: 00:36:26 So it's big in that way because it's exciting, because the idea
itself is big, like communism versus capitalism, or what have
you. And it's also enduring idea. So I admit that I created a lot of
confusion by talking about two or three different things at the
same time. But in terms of helping people, I think that they
need to know that ... I think it's important for them to know
what an idea is, and what it is not, to know that most of the
time, ideas are secondary, if they exist at all, in promotions. And
when they do exist, you should understand them and treat
them like ideas.
Mark: 00:37:11 But I would say that ... Maybe it's better to say that ... there's
something called notions, right, that are ... rather than ideas,
there are notions. Right now, there's an insurgency on the left, a
young Liberals left is that they have notions about [inaudible
00:37:37] basic communist ideas, but they don't understand
them, notions about quality, or fairness, or about ...
Alex: 00:37:46 [inaudible 00:37:46] human rights-
Mark: 00:37:56 Yeah-
Sean: 00:37:57 [crosstalk 00:37:57].
Mark: 00:37:56 Social justice. They don't really ... I mean part of the YouTube
porn is watching [inaudible 00:37:57] people try and explain
[inaudible 00:37:58]. They don't actually have ideas in their
heads. They go to college, and the teachers give them notions
about, you know, like gender fluidity, and stuff, that's a ... it's a
no ... it's not really ... it's kind of an idea, but it's so weak, it's
almost a notion. Like, they all know how to feel about things, on
this topic. I know I should be in this direction, but it's not
actually an idea.
Mark: 00:38:23 Now what I'm saying is this, if you want to be a good
copywriter, you have to work mostly on the notions, because
that's why these kids, that's why everybody's getting stirred up.
But at some point in the copy, if you're talking about popular
notions about popular topics, whether you're going for or
against them, you will have to actually get to the idea point.
Like, when you're selling a health product, you will actually have
to explain why this works better, in a rational way.
Alex: 00:38:57 To prove and [crosstalk 00:38:58]-
Mark: 00:38:57 Yeah, there's going to be a point where you're going to have to
do that. So you do need to understand how ideas work, and
how you elaborate and prove ideas, and how you disprove
other ideas, and that's a part of rhetoric, it's a part of what we
have to learn how to do. But it's not the major part, unless
you're writing a Bill Bonner-type of letter. The major-
Sean: 00:39:18 The notions are not a major part?
Mark: 00:39:20 The notions are more important. The idea, the big ideas are not
a ... the ideas are not a major part in our business, they're
overly blown. And by paying attention to the ideas, that's my
problem, by calling them "ideas," people ... it's such a blunt tool,
you mean everything, you mean whatever the hell works, so
you can't tell the difference between a story and a promise.
Mark: 00:39:40 When I say to a copywriter, "What's the idea in this package?"
And they go, "The idea is that you can double your money in six
months," that's not a fucking idea. Do you see why that's a-
Sean: 00:39:51 You shouldn't talk about money [inaudible 00:39:53].
Mark: 00:39:57 [crosstalk 00:39:57]. But you want to be able to say you need an
idea if you're going ... that's a promise, okay? That's a promise.
It's probably a new promise, but it's a promise. But now let's
attach an idea to it, or let's attach a notion to it, which is even
stronger, is better than an idea, per se.
Alex: 00:40:20 So notions, from what I'm gathering, plays on emotions, and
you can use that within your copy to [crosstalk 00:40:26]-
Mark: 00:40:25 Of course. Look, everything I'm telling you, you already know,
you already know it. In your normal communications with
people, you know when you're talking to ... let's say you're
talking to somebody that has different political views that you.
If you want that conversation to still be fine, you know how to
[inaudible 00:40:46]. And what you're doing is you're making
comments relating to notions, you're not ... you're gently
touching on the notional limits of the discussion, you're not

going to dig into the ideas because everything's going to fall
apart, so you stay on that outside fuzzy edge; you're respecting
their notions, [inaudible 00:41:13].
Mark: 00:41:14 What ideas we talk about, or just the ideas that won't ... so if
these are things that we all understand, and ... Anyway, the
reason I keep wanting to talk about this is because it's totally
not helpful for somebody to say "big idea" when that's not what
they mean. And when people try to define it, and we all have
tried to come up with a definition that incorporates all the
things that are big and successful, they end up saying it has to
be ... [inaudible 00:41:54], it has to be big, it has be current-
Alex: 00:41:57 Timely.
Mark: 00:41:57 It has to be timely.
Alex: 00:41:59 Intellectually interesting. Yeah, I mean, I've seen anywhere from
three to five different things that can be categorized into that.
Mark: 00:42:05 And I'm not saying that that's wrong; that's true, it has to be
those things, but, again, they're like truisms. Timely, well, yeah,
for 20 years, Agora Financial wrote The End of America, and
then [Porter 00:42:20] wrote it once, and he won, so that's
timely. So it doesn't really help to be timely, you know, to say
timely, it's like saying, "Don't be nervous" when somebody's
nervous, it doesn't really help.
Sean: 00:42:30 So just to give you some context-
Alex: 00:42:34 I know what it is.
Sean: 00:42:35 Have you read The End of America?
Alex: 00:42:36 I haven't read it, but they've discussed it at AWAI, and it's
definitely like-
Sean: 00:42:40 So, End of America was a [inaudible 00:42:42] of a thesis that's
been going on for a long time, which is basically that not only
was there a debt crisis, but there was also a worry that the
United States dollar would no longer be the [inaudible 00:42:50]
currency of the world, which will be cataclysmic for America, if
that ever, and probably won't ever happen.

Sean: 00:42:58 And he happened to release it right at the beginning of the

Obama administration. Like, [inaudible 00:43:04] happening at
that time, jobs were hemorrhaging, so not only were they
talking about, "This is going to make things worse than they
already are," and just look what they are, things are terrible,
and they're getting worse, imagine how worse they could be.
It's easy for people to do that because how bad things were.
Mark: 00:43:25 Right. Yeah, so that's ... that's how they work.
Sean: 00:43:31 So, if I may ask, it seems like you are boiling down, in this
conversation, that the major things that you need to consider,
when writing a package or coming up with a larger marketing
idea, is not just a promise, and not just an idea itself, but also
the notions that people have about these ideas at a particular
time, or notions that they have about this promise at a certain
time.
Mark: 00:43:55 Right. [inaudible 00:43:58] I don't know if they still keep it, I
talked about this is a prism, that you have to look at the product
that you're selling to a prism that consisted of thoughts,
feelings, and desires. So if I'm going to sell this book about how
to get rich, I'm going to imagine who my audience is, let's say a
little old granny, and I want to know what she thinks about this,
how she feels about it, and what she wants from it.
Mark: 00:44:38 So if you ask those questions, what you want from it may or
may not be obvious. Most people think, if it's an investment
program, they want to make more money in their investments,
but that's not really true. What they desire, often, is validation,
respect, etc. So there's a whole series of levels you can go into
what you decide that your person wants from this.
Mark: 00:45:10 And it's not always the same. I mean, you could say that we all
want validation more than we want to be wealthy, but
depending on your circumstance and context of where you are,
the wealthy part may be a very strong [inaudible 00:45:21] may
be very compelling for you.
Mark: 00:45:25 Then what do you think about it? Well think about the topic. So
if you're selling a stock ladder, the topic of stocks themselves,
what are people thinking right now about it? This gets you into
the thought area, which we'll relate to the idea area about what
are their current thoughts or beliefs about the stock market.
Mark: 00:45:46 And then the third is their feelings, they may believe something,
but there's other feelings other than, you know, it's not just
greed or fear, there are other things going on. When you talk
about losing weight, for example, it's obviously not greed and
fear; the feelings that we have discovered, that are important,
are the feelings of guilt, that you have to assuage, if you're
going to have a good lose weight promotion.
Mark: 00:46:22 Feelings, thoughts, and desires, and rather than think of, I
would say maybe the way we should put it is that we should
forget about the big ideas, that's not going to help you. The
whole big idea thing is just overblown-
Alex: 00:46:36 Confusing, yeah.
Mark: 00:46:37 It's confusing. Mostly what it is is confusing. Ideas do matter,

but less often, and less monumentally than you think. And what
really matters is the particular articulation of an idea, or a
promotion, at a particular time, and that depends on the ... you
guys will be able to help figure this out better than I will, it
depends on ... I realize now this has been very helpful because I
realize now how unarticulated I've been on this ... inarticulated
I've been on this whole subject, it's very clear to me, and it's
given me a lot of fuel to tell people.
Mark: 00:47:21 [inaudible 00:47:21] sent them home crying all night, but that's
not really ... I haven't explained myself. So I think if that prism is
better, it's a better way to think of it. And depending on your
analysis of what those thoughts, feelings, and desires are, you
may decide [inaudible 00:47:44] an idea-drive package. But,
again, it's not a question whether the idea is sound, it's a
question if the idea is emotionally compelling.
Sean: 00:47:56 If I were to extrapolate from what you're saying, it seems like in
that thoughts, feelings, desires prism, that really connects well
with what you were saying before about promises connecting
with desires, and notions connecting with feelings, and ideas
connecting with thoughts.
Mark: 00:48:11 Yeah, that's good, yeah.
Sean: 00:48:13 Because it seems like, not only through that prism, you can
develop, depending upon the desire that somebody has,
different promises [crosstalk 00:48:21]-
Mark: 00:48:21 Yeah, that's good. You're thinking like [inaudible 00:48:23] now,
I can see all the diagrams out there that we can ... no, I mean it's
cool.

Sean: 00:48:29 [inaudible 00:48:29].
Mark: 00:48:30 Yeah, people will enjoy that.
Sean: 00:48:31 And I can definitely see that's a very simple way to take that
prism, and take it to the next level because at a certain point,
once you start assessing that particular prism, you can start
actually diagnosing what is or is not working in the package-
Mark: 00:48:47 Exactly, right.
Sean: 00:48:48 You can also start [inaudible 00:48:49] packages, and you can
also start brainstorming, as well. And from there, and if we're to
write a book about that, it basically gives us six more chapters.
Mark: 00:48:59 Yeah, very true. And you know, when you're analyzing copy,
often you will realize something that's not working in the copy,
and it's usually one of those three things: the feelings aren't
right, the desire is wrong, or the-
Alex: 00:49:16 Is there one part that you look at first?
Mark: 00:49:19 No, I [inaudible 00:49:22] do everything like ... To me, it's
Gestalt, you know, I just try to stay with the reader, "What's he
thinking now? What's he feeling now?" [inaudible 00:49:36]
conversation with somebody, you meet somebody, you're
trying to make them like you, you're reading their face, right, so
... [inaudible 00:49:45] going to care what you're saying, you're
trying to get the facial reaction, that's what we do, right, and
say, "Okay, [inaudible 00:49:51]." And so, yeah, you're reading
all those things. The thought stuff comes ... you know, if you say
something that violates one of their notions, you'll know it right
away, you'll read it, and then you'll start backtracking.
Alex: 00:50:10 In terms of knowing your reader and your audience, Henry
Bingaman gave a speech at the bootcamp, talking about a
proven way to target, and for this sake I'll just use the word idea
because that's the context he used, to target your idea to make
it successful, and knowing basically every idiosyncrasy or
neuroticism your reader has by taking a test. Do you think that
that's a useful strategy? Or can you just generalize it?
Mark: 00:50:34 How do you take a test?
Alex: 00:50:36 Well, you can take a test for yourself, and then there's five
different characteristics [crosstalk 00:50:43]-

Sean: 00:50:42 The Big Five Personality Test.
Alex: 00:50:44 Right. It was, I guess I could use it in comparison to the IQ test,
in terms of knowing different things about people. Is it really
that necessary to go in depth in knowing that much about your
reader?
Mark: 00:50:57 Well, I mean, I'd be interested to hear ... I know that this is what
[Ben Settle's 00:51:06] girlfriend does, right? That's what she
does?
Sean: 00:51:08 I don't know, actually.
Mark: 00:51:09 She has her own newsletter now. Yeah, she believes in that test.
What's it called, that test?
Sean: 00:51:16 There's the Big Five Personality Test.
Alex: 00:51:18 I think it was the Big Five.
Mark: 00:51:21 [inaudible 00:51:21] person's name attached to it.
Sean: 00:51:23 Myers-Briggs.
Mark: 00:51:23 Myers-Briggs, right.
Alex: 00:51:24 That's a good one though.
Mark: 00:51:25 So these things are ... they're usually like ... If you are dominant
in this quadrant, then you need to do this, rather than this. I
mean, think if this is largely true, I think we do it intuitively, but I
just don't know actually how you would apply it to your
audience. Or to put it differently, I presume that I'm doing that
already at a fairly high level, just by being empathetic. But
maybe it would be helpful to do it, I don't know, I didn't hear
the presentation.
Sean: 00:52:08 May I?
Alex: 00:52:08 Yeah, go ahead.
Sean: 00:52:08 So, I mean, on that note, and we'll wrap up shortly so that ...
well, one, so that you can do your thing, and we also have the
dinner at 6:30. But just to ask a couple more questions, the one
thing that I have to follow-up on that then is: everybody has
their own system for doing demographic research. How do you

get into a mindset where you can be empathetic with people,

that perhaps you never encountered, don't even have anything
in agreement with?
Mark: 00:52:33 Okay, so, if generally what you do as a copywriter is you choose
one audience, and you stick to it, and you learn that audience.
And for me, that audience was people that are retiring, I never
veered from that; investment, you know, there's all these
people [inaudible 00:52:54] younger people, it's not going to
happen. You don't care about investing until you're on a fixed
income, then you care a lot.
Mark: 00:53:03 So I don't have to ... All those people are the same to me, it's
just one image of one person, they have the same responses, I
don't have to ... But when I went into the health area, I had my
own preconceived notion of what health buyers were like,
natural health people were. I was wrong; I thought they were
like me, I thought they were interested in natural health, but
they really basically trusted conventional medicine.
Mark: 00:53:34 But they're not like that, they don't like conventional medicine
at all, they have a deep distrust more than I have. And so I had
to learn that before I went in, and so it's just a fact that I know.
Actually, the fact that this thing, I can write to that audience
now, based on this analysis [inaudible 00:53:56] personality
testings would be very effective to find out what they ...
because that ... Can you imagine if I kept trying to write copy
with that bias in my copy? Because I wouldn't be hitting hard
enough on mainstream medicine, and I wouldn't be satisfying
their notional needs.
Mark: 00:54:19 So, yeah, so maybe you can incorporate that as ... but I do think
it's very, very important, and so, yeah, actually, yeah, maybe
you should go in that direction for those chapters.
Sean: 00:54:34 Absolutely. I mean, if you notes on that-
Alex: 00:54:36 I did. I think I shared it with, Google Doc, yeah.
Sean: 00:54:38 Great.
Mark: 00:54:38 Yeah, and presumably, he has a way of finding that out, from
analysis of the audience.
Alex: 00:54:44 Right. Like, he can kind of prejudge it, right? So one of the
characteristic traits is someone's open-mindedness, compared
to being not open-minded. So in the health industry, that may
be good if you are kind of on the cutting edge of a new non-

Westernized medicine, you know, if you're appealing to
someone. Or even in finance, okay, someone's close-minded,
you may not want to dabble in [inaudible 00:55:07] talk.
Mark: 00:55:07 Yeah, I would say that ... now that you just gave me that
example, I'm [inaudible 00:55:15]. Like, open-minded and close-
minded could be interpreted in many ways. But what I want to
know is, again, through the prism. I want to know what they
think and feel ... yeah, I think that's all you need, you don't need
that test if you do this. What do they feel about ... I'll give you
an example in health.
Mark: 00:55:36 Because what they feel, and what they think, changes, it's never
stable because information changes, it's the tipping point thing.
So what do they feel about ... I mean, the example you just gave
is they thought the same thing, but what happened with the
beginning of the Obama administration is they were feeling
something much more urgently than they were before,
[inaudible 00:55:59]. In health, for example, fish oil became a
great source of, I don't know even know what, and it-
Sean: 00:56:09 Omega-3s.
Mark: 00:56:11 Omega-3s, right. And so everybody was ... Isn't this guy
ridiculous? Is there anything he doesn't know?
Alex: 00:56:21 [crosstalk 00:56:21].
Mark: 00:56:20 It's like I don't even need, what's that thing, Alexa?
Alex: 00:56:21 [crosstalk 00:56:21].
Mark: 00:56:21 Right. Yeah, you don't even need your iPhone [inaudible
00:56:24]. He's quicker than your iPhone, and he writes copy.
Sean: 00:56:29 Oh, boy.
Mark: 00:56:35 Anyway. I learned that that was a thing, so I ... I was looking at,
you know, going to websites, and I remember looking at it,
thinking, "God, these guys believe ... this is a new thought now.
This oil, omega-3s, there's a belief system now." So, what did I
do? I said, [inaudible 00:56:58] better than fish oil. And it was
krill oil, or something ... we ran a whole series of things based
on that.

Mark: 00:57:07 So what did they feel about it? Very excited, it's new, positive,
very positive. What did they think? Fish oil is the answer. Their
thought thing was about omega-3s, and later on in the
promotion, you've got to deliver the thought part, the proof,
and the rational part, and what do they want [crosstalk
00:57:25]-
Sean: 00:57:25 The promise and the desires, which is something even better
than omega-3s.
Sean: 00:57:38 Omega-18s.
Mark: 00:57:38 Yeah. [inaudible 00:57:39], they're going to get their omega-3s,
[inaudible 00:57:39] and that's going to make them healthier.
The general promise is still the same, but the difference is that
when you say it's better, then you're giving ... yeah, you're right,
that's ... it's a different way of promising that's even stronger, in
some ways. And because it's based on a belief system that
they've recently acquired from the earlier promotions.
Sean: 00:58:05 That reminds me of [inaudible 00:58:06].
Sean: 00:58:12 And that's the promise that you're making to fulfill [crosstalk
00:58:14] desire.
Sean: 00:58:17 Very cool. This has been a very, very good and edifying
conversation.
Alex: 00:58:20 Exactly. I think they've kind of debunked the whole big idea
thing for me.
Mark: 00:58:25 Yeah, in a way, [inaudible 00:58:27] take that angle, for sure.
And now whether you [inaudible 00:58:30] angle will depend on
how ... you run the prism on your audience, what do they think,
feel, and believe about big ideas. If the thoughts, feelings, and
... they may not want to give it up.
Alex: 00:58:43 You're going to ruffle feathers if that were to be a thing.
Sean: 00:58:46 I'm friends with all of them, anyway.

Mark: 00:58:48 All who?
Sean: 00:58:48 [inaudible 00:58:48]-
Mark: 00:58:48 Oh, the big idea thing, yeah.
Sean: 00:58:53 [crosstalk 00:58:53].
Alex: 00:58:53 Well I don't mean actually piss them off, per se, but I think it'll
definitely put it out there, "Hey, listen, big ideas aren't what
[crosstalk 00:59:00]."
Mark: 00:59:01 No, right, it's a good [crosstalk 00:59:05]-
Sean: 00:59:05 [crosstalk 00:59:05] other stuff.
Alex: 00:59:05 Right.
Mark: 00:59:04 But in terms of whether it would sell, whether you'd sell the
book, I don't know whether I would go against the big ideas,
you would have to test it earlier, which is exactly what we're
talking about. Because this may be too much of a sacred cow, at
this point. People may just want to have the real source, the
real source of big ideas, Mark Ford and Bill Bonner, now
[inaudible 00:59:28]. You don't have to dis those guys [inaudible
00:59:31]. So I don't know, I don't know which ... but that's how
you put this idea to work, right? Everything we've been talking
about, to me, is more-
Sean: 00:59:41 I mean, and that seems like a very, very easy test to set up,
where you could have one package that's very contrarian, and
one package that leans into them, so it's like, yes, you need a
big idea, but you need these five other things, too, you know,
better than the big idea, there you go.
Mark: 00:59:54 Right, there you go, right, yeah.
Alex: 00:59:56 But from your perspective-
Mark: 00:59:58 [crosstalk 00:59:58].
Alex: 00:59:58 What would you buy? The contrarian point of view, or ...?
Mark: 01:00:02 I don't know, I don't know what I would buy. I don't know, I
don't know.

Alex: 01:00:07 Just as a copywriter, or someone who's involved in the business.
Mark: 01:00:10 Yeah, but I don't care what I would buy, because I'm not likely
to buy, I care ... it's more a question what you would buy than
what I would buy. But certainly, it's either better than the big
idea, or it could be the big idea is a myth, the prism is the
[crosstalk 01:00:29]-
Alex: 01:00:29 I don't know, I think the myth, I would buy the myth.
Mark: 01:00:34 [inaudible 01:00:34] because I like to be contrary, but ... I'm not
saying that because I believe in it, I'm just ... I said it as an
illustration of what you need to do, you need to ... all we're
doing, in asking that question, is respecting the audience, and
saying, "I want this product to appeal to them. And I know the
product is good, I'm going to teach them the same stuff," so I
want to know how to say it.
Sean: 01:01:02 I would say that that connects very well with what you were
saying earlier, and I'm wondering if I can remember this
precisely, which is you identified, in one of your competitor's
packages, an idea, [crosstalk 01:01:13] the notion that [crosstalk
01:01:15] wanted to do. Put that in the front, and all of a
sudden, that's it. The contrarian idea, I think the articulation of
that is really predicated on the inventor of the big idea says the
big idea is [inaudible 01:01:32].
Mark: 01:01:31 Oh, that's good.
Sean: 01:01:37 There you go. And that's your contrarian package. And that
would only work if it's in either about you, and your [crosstalk
01:01:44]-
Mark: 01:01:46 Right, but in all fairness, I'm not the inventor, so make Bill or
[crosstalk 01:01:48]-
Sean: 01:01:48 The propagator.
Sean: 01:01:53 I know [crosstalk 01:01:54]-
Mark: 01:01:53 I did invent the Long Island Ice Tea, though, [crosstalk 01:01:56],
I would like you to promote that idea.


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Sean: 00:00:01 I'm very proud of myself.

Alex: 00:00:05 With your archaic cellphone.

Sean: 00:00:05 Don't judge me.

Alex: 00:00:10 [crosstalk 00:00:10].

Mark: 00:00:11 What's wrong with our telephone?

Sean: 00:00:13 It's many years old, and needs to be upgraded.

Mark: 00:00:16 Oh, okay. I wouldn't have guessed.

Alex: 00:00:21 We just had a conversation [crosstalk 00:00:21].

Mark: 00:00:21 Okay.

Sean: 00:00:22 So, Alex has prepared some questions, and-

Alex: 00:00:25 I've got ... yeah.

Alex: 00:01:25 It was the ticking in a car, right? That was-

Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 1 of 27

Sean: 00:02:26 [crosstalk 00:02:26] Red Wheelbarrow-

Mark: 00:02:26 [crosstalk 00:02:26].

Sean: 00:02:26 [crosstalk 00:02:26].

Alex: 00:04:03 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

actual intellectual idea. And big, by Bill, means macroeconomic

came in there, I was probably like Sean probably does after

Sean: 00:08:00 Have I ever done that? [crosstalk 00:08:01].

Sean: 00:08:07 Yeah.

Sean: 00:08:28 [Alvado's 00:08:28] a lovely guy, [crosstalk 00:08:29].

Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 4 of 27

Sean: 00:10:16 [crosstalk 00:10:16].

Sean: 00:10:27 [crosstalk 00:10:27].

Sean: 00:11:57 Your oxygen deprived bones.

because you have macroeconomic views, people buy financial

Mark: 00:14:40 And, usually, in the marketplace, in the marketplace of ideas,

because you always want to be on the uphill trend, it's so much

Alex: 00:17:28 Berries.

You're not going to create a promotion where your idea is that

Alex: 00:18:13 [crosstalk 00:18:13].

Sean: 00:19:08 Before we move on to that-

Alex: 00:19:09 Sorry.

Sean: 00:19:10 Can I ask a couple of follow-up questions?

Mark: 00:19:11 Right.

Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 8 of 27

Alex: 00:19:42 The big idea [crosstalk 00:19:44].

Sean: 00:19:44 [crosstalk 00:19:44].

Mark: 00:21:02 Now, if you're going to have an idea, it has to be emotionally

Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 9 of 27

Sean: 00:26:20 So the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is you can detect

Mark: 00:26:28 But not both, right.

Sean: 00:26:30 [crosstalk 00:26:30]. And that seems to be similar to what

caring about the customer always, being connected with the

Sean: 00:27:46 4-Hour Workweek, yeah.

Mark: 00:27:47 That's it.

Sean: 00:27:47 [crosstalk 00:27:47].

Sean: 00:28:02 Yeah.

Mark: 00:28:02 Anyway.

Mark: 00:28:11 Four-minute ads.

Sean: 00:28:12 Four-minute ads.

Mark: 00:28:18 Against what?

Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 12 of 27

Mark: 00:28:43 I don't know.

Alex: 00:28:45 You mean you didn't read every note?

Mark: 00:28:54 [inaudible 00:28:54].

Alex: 00:28:59 I don't know about that.

Sean: 00:29:13 Before we do that ... actually, he made a distinction between a

Mark: 00:29:25 An intellectual [crosstalk 00:29:29].

Big Idea Interview - 6-5-19 (Completed 06/08/19) Page 13 of 27

about the girl that I doubled her IQ [inaudible 00:30:57]," that's