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Testtech posted 24 March 2009 06:36 PM

I have just started taking data on a brand new, variable speed Atlas
Copco two stage screw compressor. On the high pressure stage,
horizontal direction, I measured .739"/sec at 15790 CPM. This is the
male rotor frequency. When brought to the attention of the
manufacturer, they examined the machine and concluded all is well.

Has anyone seen male rotor speed vibration this high on an Atlas
Copco screw machine?

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

Danny posted 25 March 2009 09:09 AM Hide Post

Harvey
Do you see evidence of impacting in the twf? Harmonics in the
spectrum? Any bearing defect frequencies?

Most importantly, was there a vibration spec issued before purchase?

That is very high amplitude on a rotor of relatively small mass and I

share your concern. I would ask for a complete report from Atlas-
Copco explaining how .739 ips is normal.

I don't have any vibration standards from Atlas-Copco but I do for

similar compressors from Sullair. (Assumming that this is a type ZR).

Either get vibration standards from AC or confirm the model number of

the compressor so that I can make sure of a legitimate comparison
and I'll give you the Sullair guides.

Danny

Posts: 3180 | Location: Midlothian, VA, US | Registered: 22

February 2005

Vibuser posted 25 March 2009 10:52 AM Hide Post

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Just an opinion

Maybe you could carryout lube oil check (if any) to figure out any wear
out of the internal parts.

I'd just monitor new Ingersol Rand Screw type compressor. Its stated
on the enclosure body of its maintenance schedule; including oil
analysis every 2000hrs / 4000hrs if im not mistaken.

However, i still not figure out where to sample its lube oil. Anyone
have any idea? Plus, already consult with IR rep for its vibration limit
but no response.

Posts: 126 | Location: Asia | Registered: 10 March 2006

Testtech posted 25 March 2009 04:42 PM Hide Post

Hi Danny:

I need to get the model # and actual internal component data

(bearings, gears, etc.). I have attached a spectrum. You can see the
impellor speed harmonics. Of course, this machine will have lots of
harmonics related to the discharge frequency. I would say no to
evidence of impacting in the twf. No bearing fault frequencies in the
spectrum or in peak view.

Vib--I think Atlas took an oil sample. I am waiting for their report,
which, so far, concludes normal operation.

Atlas_Copco_Vibration.doc (133 Kb, 103 downloads)

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

Testtech posted 27 March 2009 07:16 PM Hide Post

Danny:

Here is the model number. It is a ZR250VSD (variable speed drive).

They have a second machine which is a ZR250. Any comparable
standards for Sullair would be appreciated. The comparable vibration
level for the male high speed rotor on ZR250 is less than .1"/sec. Big
difference!

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

Xracer posted 28 March 2009 04:18 PM Hide Post

quote:

Originally posted by Testtech:

Hi Danny:

I need to get the model # and actual internal component

data (bearings, gears, etc.). I have attached a spectrum.
You can see the impellor speed harmonics. Of course, this
machine will have lots of harmonics related to the
discharge frequency. I would say no to evidence of
impacting in the twf. No bearing fault frequencies in the
spectrum or in peak view.

Vib--I think Atlas took an oil sample. I am waiting for their

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New Atlas Copco Compressor Question - Topic Page 3 of 6

report, which, so far, concludes normal operation.

Good luck with retrieving info from Atlas Copco. I've been waiting for a
few months on internal configuration data for our two units that we
have.

thexracer@live.com

Posts: 354 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 12 January 2006

Danny posted 29 March 2009 12:13 PM Hide Post

Harvey
I've not gotten a lot of help from Atlas Copco or I-R in the past, but
Sullair was recently very prompt and forthcoming with all of the
required information for their compressors.

I'll post the guidelines from Sullair for a comparable type on Monday
when I'm in the office.

Hasn't the advent of variable speed to this type of equipment made

vaibration analysis just that much more fun?

Danny

Posts: 3180 | Location: Midlothian, VA, US | Registered: 22

February 2005

Testtech posted 29 March 2009 01:34 PM Hide Post

Drives are great. Motor vibration contains lots of drive related high
frequency activity to confuse the poor analyst and a Speed Vue has
become indispensable. On this AC, we are running the motor to full
speed to obtain vibration readings. Otherwise, the speeds moves too
much during a set of readings.

One useful technique, on some drives, peak view will produce

harmonics of field frequency, so you can easily determine the motor
speed. On the other hand, you now have to distinguish between drive
frequencies and bearing fault frequencies. NO free lunch.

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

David_G posted 30 March 2009 02:30 PM Hide Post

Since 15790 CPM appears to be discharge ( air pressure pulsations )

frequency there is nothing to worry about.

Just an opinion.

Posts: 1605 | Location: Texas | Registered: 22 February 2005

Danny posted 30 March 2009 04:18 PM Hide Post

Harvey
15,790 is more likely the primary stage male rotor speed. This is a 2-
stage dry screw with a bull gear on the motor shaft driving two much
smaller pinions.

http://productpagesct.atlascop...SD&Lng=EN&Country=US

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Units are ips peak and this is apparently applied to all types of Sullair
Compressors since the my client has a flooded screw single stage, a
flooded screw double stage and this dry screw 2 stage. I would guess
that the ZR 250 would be comparable to a size 25, but you might want
to verify that for yourself.

For what it's worth, .73 ips is just about off Sullair's chart for any
compressor, at any speed, or at any frequency.

Danny

Posts: 3180 | Location: Midlothian, VA, US | Registered: 22

February 2005

Danny posted 30 March 2009 04:21 PM Hide Post

Harvey
15,790 is more likely the primary stage male rotor speed. This is a 2-
stage dry screw with a bull gear on the motor shaft driving two much
smaller pinions.

The attached file is what Sullair sent me for use at my clients. They
were very helpful and answered all the questions promptly and fully.
Units are ips peak and this is apparently applied to all types of Sullair
Compressors since my client has a flooded screw single stage, a
flooded screw double stage and this dry screw 2 stage. I would guess
that the ZR 250 would be comparable to a size 25, but you might want
to verify that for yourself.

For what it's worth, .73 ips is just about off Sullair's chart for any
compressor, at any speed, or at any frequency.

Danny

Posts: 3180 | Location: Midlothian, VA, US | Registered: 22

February 2005

Terrence posted 31 March 2009 04:32 PM Hide Post

O'Hanlon
OK Now

Posts: 983 | Location: Southwest Florida Gulf | Registered: 03

April 2004

Testtech posted 31 March 2009 10:42 PM Hide Post

Hi Danny:
Sorry, but the attachment does not appear.

I believe that the low speed primary rotor is 10120 and the high speed
is as stated. I worked backwards from the discharge pulses and then
inspected data from each stage to confirm.

These numbers are actually close to a ZR4A.

Hopefully, I will get the factory data at some point. I look forward to
your attachment.

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

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Testtech posted 31 March 2009 10:59 PM Hide Post

David G:

The high speed discharge pulse is at 63140 CPM, 4x male rotor speed.
In the peakview spectrum, the highest value is at 63140. In this
particular machine, there is also a a series at male rotor speed. In a
"normal" machine, the male rotor speed harmonics do not show up on
peakview, only the 4x male rotor (discharge pulse ) series is
predominant.

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

David_G posted 07 April 2009 06:20 PM Hide Post

Testtech,

Sorry I missed that. I did not read full description and wrongfully
jumped to conclusion based on the fact that 15,790cpm is exactly 6
orders of 2590 RPM.

At the same time, could 15,790 cpm be a frequency of some

intermediate discharge pulse?

Posts: 1605 | Location: Texas | Registered: 22 February 2005

Testtech posted 07 April 2009 09:37 PM Hide Post

David: I don't think so. The discharge pulse is simply 4x impeller

speed.

The factory techs took vibration data on the machine. They accept a
maximum vibration of 40 dbi.

What is dbi?

If this is an overall value, then they will miss the problem. The
machine can produce relatively large discharge pulse vibration. The
presence of a high 1x male rotor would be easily missed by an overall
reading calibrated against a high discharge pulse vibration.

Posts: 248 | Location: US | Registered: 26 May 2005

RRS_Dave posted 08 April 2009 08:14 PM Hide Post

dbi was the same thing the local Cooper bearing guy read when we
were determining why his bearings were failing. It came from a vibe
meter, but don't know whose it was.

By the way, he picked the wrong one to take apart. Spike said it was
the outboard one (the one we called him on to start with) and his dbi
said the inboard was worse.

Posts: 1686 | Location: Marietta, Oh | Registered: 15 April 2004

Danny posted 09 April 2009 10:29 AM Hide Post

Harvey
Dave,

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That's funny because the Cooper service guy (obviously a different

one) told me that they look for 1 ips overall as a replacement trigger
and don't even consider acceleration or demod

His reasoning was that their bearings were so robust that they could
take all the high frequency stuff and didn't need replacement until it
started showing up heavily in velocity. Spectral or waveform analysis
is not necessary according to him although I'm not sure how he tells 1
ips overall of bearing wear from 1 ips overall of imbalance

Danny

Posts: 3180 | Location: Midlothian, VA, US | Registered: 22

February 2005

RRS_Dave posted 09 April 2009 02:47 PM Hide Post

Danny,

1 IPS. I would not want to be around the fans these things were
holding up at 1 IPS

This guy did not have a spectral analyzer either. It just gave an
overall reading. I looked at both velocity and spike, and told the
customer to replace the outboard bearing. It was the second time in a
short time frame. They called this guy in, and he said the drive side
was worse than the one I said. Ended up it was an installation error
they were commiting, but I kinda giggled when they opened up the
drive side and found nothing.
I think I asked him what the dbi was, but don't know if he reponded
to me. Been a year.

Posts: 1686 | Location: Marietta, Oh | Registered: 15 April 2004

Danny posted 09 April 2009 04:41 PM Hide Post

Harvey
It's usually an installation error that causes Coopers to act up. They
definitely ARE tough but being cylindrical, there is little margin for
error and have to be put together right. And soft foot in the bearing
pads is a problem sometimes, too.

Danny

Posts: 3180 | Location: Midlothian, VA, US | Registered: 22

February 2005

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