Let's get uncomfortable https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?

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Let's get uncomfortable

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David Maurice 08-18-2002, 03:19 PM

Let's get uncomfortable

There are many RT members who are relatively new to productive training and thus lack the benefits of extended period of
experience and observation. Here is a partial list of discomforts you might experience while learning to train productively, and what
they mean.

Soreness

Being sore does not indicate that you have stimulated growth, nor does it indicate that you have not recovered enough to lift. Being
sore is more likely when new to training (or a lift) or starting a new cycle, yet this is when you are least likely to place such demands
on your body that it needs extra time to recuperate. If you train infrequently, you are likely to often be sore; if you start light and
train frequently as prescribed for beginners then soreness should not be an issue.

Fatigue

Dragging the next day? Normal. You'll adapt. You need to build your base of conditioning. You can't do that if you don't train!

Squats and deadlifts

It takes time for them to feel natural. However they feel more natural when you add some weight! It is much easier to have proper
squatting balance for squats when using 95 pounds then it is when using the bare bar; deadlifts will feel better at 95 than at 55.
(Weights will of course be different for female lifters.) This isn't to say you should throw weight on the bar indiscriminately, but if you
stick at a very low weight with the dream of it someday feeling perfect, it isn't going to happen. Get the wobbles out and add weight.

Not seeing progress in a lift or two

You really need to be pushing decent weights before you need to split up your lifts or reduce frequency. If you are following a
balanced routine, then there are two possibilities to look at. One, did you try to make faster progress on the lift(s) that stalled? Lots
of guys obsess so much about the bench press that they apply high effort to it while still building up slowly on other lifts. Two, is your
diet marginal?

Not being able to do many chin-ups.

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This is normal for beginners. It is perfectly fine to do pulldowns until you get a bit stronger. If you see rapid progress (from humble
beginnings) on the chin-ups, stick with them, but if you don't, then do the pulldowns.

Not seeing changes in bodyweight or muscle size

It is pretty rare to see much change in the first few months if working with light weights. You need to crank it up and get really
working and give the muscles a stimulus. Don't be discouraged, don't rush to get there. But don't dawdle either. Keep adding a bit of
weight each week and you'll get there. Get the out-of-gym factors in order so when you are training hard, you can respond to the
stimulus.

Andy Fochtman 08-18-2002, 04:57 PM

Excellent

Jeff Pitts 08-18-2002, 09:16 PM

"If you see rapid progress (from humble beginnings) on the chin-ups, stick with them, but if you don't, then do the pulldowns. "

Great David. Why didn't you just put Jeff Pitts down there on that one. In big glaring letters. No sense in beating around the bush.

Jeff Pitts

ps, GREAT post! Not only beginners need to read that one, EVERYONE should.

David Maurice 08-19-2002, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Pitts

"If you see rapid progress (from humble beginnings) on the chin-ups, stick with them, but if you don't, then
do the pulldowns. "

Great David. Why didn't you just put Jeff Pitts down there on that one. In big glaring letters. No sense in
beating around the bush.

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Because, Jeff, I expect you to do them!

But you raise a good point; I need to clarify. This comment (like the rest of the post) was aimed at the true beginner, who sometimes
does not yet have the strength to perform many chin-ups. If they go from two to six reps in a month, great, but if they make no
progress from their two reps, there is no sense in them training that close to their maximum for weeks on end.

But a guy who has been training a few years should have the strength to do chin-ups. What might hold such a person back is too
much BF or something between the ears. There is no upper body movement which will expose excess BF faster, or which causes as
much mental barriers, as the chin-up.

Get your bodyfat down to 15% or less, train your upper back hard while doing so, and you will be able to do chin-ups effectively.

Jeff Pitts 08-19-2002, 09:57 AM

Great Dave,

Now I'm a fatty. :D I'm just a hair over your 15%, about 17% and I'm real happy there. I can crank out 10 or 12 chins, but only
about 6 or 7 of them picture perfect. And since they irritate my shoulder a little, I'm happy with pulldowns! :)

Jeff Pitts, Fatty ;)

Craig Payne 08-19-2002, 10:13 AM

Re: Let's get uncomfortable

Interesting read there. I can relate to this. I started lifting again about 6 months ago, with no weight on the bar, and then worked
my way up and started pushing myself and upping the calories in June in order to attempt to gain weight. So I'd have to say I'm still
a beginner. Therefore, I will address each point below:

Quote:

Originally posted by David Maurice

There are many RT members who are relatively new to productive training and thus lack the benefits of
extended period of experience and observation. Here is a partial list of discomforts you might experience
while learning to train productively, and what they mean.

Soreness

Being sore does not indicate that you have stimulated growth, nor does it indicate that you have not
recovered enough to lift. Being sore is more likely when new to training (or a lift) or starting a new cycle,

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yet this is when you are least likely to place such demands on your body that it needs extra time to
recuperate. If you train infrequently, you are likely to often be sore; if you start light and train frequently as
prescribed for beginners then soreness should not be an issue.

When I lifted weights a couple years back, I'd train each exercise once a week and get sore. Now that I do each lift twice a week, I
don't get sore.

Quote:

Fatigue

Dragging the next day? Normal. You'll adapt. You need to build your base of conditioning. You can't do that
if you don't train!

Makes perfect sense.

Quote:

Squats and deadlifts

It takes time for them to feel natural. However they feel more natural when you add some weight! It is
much easier to have proper squatting balance for squats when using 95 pounds then it is when using the
bare bar; deadlifts will feel better at 95 than at 55. (Weights will of course be different for female lifters.)
This isn't to say you should throw weight on the bar indiscriminately, but if you stick at a very low weight
with the dream of it someday feeling perfect, it isn't going to happen. Get the wobbles out and add weight.

I currently deadlift 80 lbs, 25 reps. By the time I hit my tenth rep, I start breathing heavy and by the time I'm done, I'm totally
exhausted. I figure I'll try to hit 30 reps before I add weight.

As far as the squat goes, I just purchased an open rack so I've started to squat with 20 lbs. I've been doing this after the deadlift so
after about 20-25 reps on the squat, my legs give out. Yes, 20 pounds! Does the weight really matter as long as you're pushing
yourself to the limit? I know I could do lift more weight if I didn't squat after the deadlift. Maybe I should do squat one day and
deadlift the other?

Quote:

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Not seeing progress in a lift or two

You really need to be pushing decent weights before you need to split up your lifts or reduce frequency. If
you are following a balanced routine, then there are two possibilities to look at. One, did you try to make
faster progress on the lift(s) that stalled? Lots of guys obsess so much about the bench press that they
apply high effort to it while still building up slowly on other lifts. Two, is your diet marginal?

I'm stuck on the bench press. Been at around 12 reps at 135 pounds for the past couple weeks. Up until a month ago, I was adding 5
pounds on the bar per workout (10 per week). I'm toying around with the idea of benching just once a week and adding dips on the
other day.

Quote:

Not being able to do many chin-ups.

This is normal for beginners. It is perfectly fine to do pulldowns until you get a bit stronger. If you see rapid
progress (from humble beginnings) on the chin-ups, stick with them, but if you don't, then do the
pulldowns.

Surprisingly, I don't have any problem with chin ups. This is one of my stronger exercises even though you couldn't tell by looking at
me. I started them about 3 weeks ago after I got my rack and I'm already up to 12 chins. It might be time to get me a hip belt so I
can add some weight.

Quote:

Not seeing changes in bodyweight or muscle size

It is pretty rare to see much change in the first few months if working with light weights. You need to crank
it up and get really working and give the muscles a stimulus. Don't be discouraged, don't rush to get there.
But don't dawdle either. Keep adding a bit of weight each week and you'll get there. Get the out-of-gym
factors in order so when you are training hard, you can respond to the stimulus.

When I started pushing myself a couple months ago, and increasing the calories, I gained 10 pounds in a month (from June to July).
But from July to August, I only gained 1 pound. Granted, I didn't increase the calories at all, so perhaps my maintenance
requirements are catching up to my daily calorie consumption. It may be time to increase the calories a bit...

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Manny Silva 08-19-2002, 12:54 PM

Dave,
I just dropped a three day split after experiencing shoulder pain.I started back on a two day a week lifting session with one top set
for deads and belt squats.I am also doing numerous movements for the chest and shoulders with different movements for one top
set.

You say one should be lifting heavy before dropping frequency and sets.I am confused again!Example today i did 278x15 on the
deadlift and it went pretty easy except the last couple reps.Am i risking undertraining now?

David Maurice 08-19-2002, 02:09 PM

Jeff - If pulldowns don't bother your shoulders, then chin-ups won't bother your shoulders if you use the same grip and control.

Craig - why are you doing such high reps in the squat and dead? At those strength levels you'd be better off doing 3 x 10-12. Yes,
weight matters; the mechanisms by which the muscle fatigues depend upon weight. Right now your body is just getting tired from
moving up and down so many times! Since you are really starting out, suggest you check out the beginner's thread in the archives
and get on that program. That way you'll be working with a program known to work, plus you'll have a bunch of virtual training
partners.

Manny - this was addressed to people experiencing these discomforts for the first time; you are well past that point. You may err (as
we all do) from time to time on workload and frequency, but what you describe is certainly within the range of reasonable given your
development.

Manny Silva 08-19-2002, 02:22 PM

Thank you Dave.

Andreas Carlsson 08-19-2002, 03:56 PM

David Maurice

Excellent as usual!

I don't think that I've ever read anything, on the subject of weight trainging, as good as your posts and articles. You describe things

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with a seldom found simplicity which allows communication between the educated and uneducated. You should write a book!

Andreas

Craig Payne 08-20-2002, 03:55 PM

As far as the high reps go, just being cautious. I'm a little hesitant to lift heavier weights due to a prior back injury (which has since
healed 100%), but I do see your point about lower reps being less tiring. Perhaps it would be best to gradually decrease the number
of reps as I gradually increase weight? I'm not sure that suddenly doing half as many reps with twice is much weight would be very
safe. I will definitely check out the beginner's thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by David Maurice

Jeff - If pulldowns don't bother your shoulders, then chin-ups won't bother your shoulders if you use the
same grip and control.

Craig - why are you doing such high reps in the squat and dead? At those strength levels you'd be better off
doing 3 x 10-12. Yes, weight matters; the mechanisms by which the muscle fatigues depend upon weight.
Right now your body is just getting tired from moving up and down so many times! Since you are really
starting out, suggest you check out the beginner's thread in the archives and get on that program. That way
you'll be working with a program known to work, plus you'll have a bunch of virtual training partners.

Manny - this was addressed to people experiencing these discomforts for the first time; you are well past
that point. You may err (as we all do) from time to time on workload and frequency, but what you describe
is certainly within the range of reasonable given your development.

Faheem Chauhan 08-20-2002, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craig Payne

I'm not sure that suddenly doing half as many reps with twice is much weight would be very safe.

No it wouldnt, i dont think anyone would recommend that, least of all Dave. If youre going to cut reps then treat it as a new cycle

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and start with manageable weights and build up.

Rich Eastwood 08-20-2002, 05:37 PM

I think that it's a good idea to err on the side of 'more reps, less weight' but 25-30 is maybe taking it a bit far.

Can you maintain perfect concentration for every one of those reps? I know if it were me I'd tend to rush towards the end of a set, or
loosen my form a little to make the rep count.

Great chinning BTW, 12 reps is a real achievement, and in 3 weeks it's fantastic progress.

Mark Collins 08-21-2002, 11:52 AM

David

I beg to differ on what you said about chins vs. pulldowns. I have a shoulder problem as well, and I find pulldowns (even well over
my bodyweight) do not bother my shoulder. But chins are VERY uncomfortable. This may have to do with the body's precise position.
This is easier to control in a pulldown where the body is stationary, whereas in chinning (especially with weight attached), there's
always the concern of NOT allowing a dead hang and also avoiding a slight swing or torso rotation during the full ROM.

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David Maurice 08-21-2002, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Collins

This is easier to control in a pulldown where the body is stationary, whereas in chinning (especially with
weight attached), there's always the concern of NOT allowing a dead hang and also avoiding a slight swing
or torso rotation during the full ROM.

Then control isn't the same, is it?

There is no question that there are situations where a machine or pulley is needed because the body has a structure which is either
damaged or weak and thereby disallows the control needed to perform a movement safely. In those situations, there are two, not
one, actions to take. One, limit training to movements which are both biomechanically sound and pain free. Two, determine the exact
structural weakness which results in pain that leads to changing training, and take whatever action is available to improve the
strength of that structure.

Andy Fochtman 08-21-2002, 02:28 PM

Craig,

Not to take this thread off track, but I don't think it was suggested to cut the reps and pile on weight. Why don't you make a plan to
progressively add weight, say 5-10 lbs a week, while cutting your reps down by 3-5 repes every few weeks, until you are in the 10-15
rep range? You'll have manageable workouts, quickly find a reasonable working weight and still be in a fairly high rep, moderate
weight range. Then start to work up to heavy weights

Andy

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