what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?

t=11908&pp=80

what happens next?

Printable View

David Maurice 05-21-2003, 02:56 PM

what happens next?

What are the stages during the beginner's routine?

The lifter trains as often as possible, using very submaximal weights. They struggle with form, flexibility, eating and sleep habits.

The lifter builds up the poundages until they start getting hard. Squats and deads somewhere around 135-155 usually. Time to
change the program, right? Wrong. Instead, they get a message "eat more." And this is invariably good for another 20 pounds worth
of progress on their squat and deadlift. 20 pounds progress isn't the important bit though; it is just a marker. What is really valuable
is the lesson about how food intake affects progress. You can't learn it from reading about it. You have to experience it. You have to
learn to recognize the signs of when you can and should add food.

Pay close attention to this, and share it with new board members who fear that training squats and deads 3x a week will be
overtraining: most of the guys who have done the beginner's routine on this board have worked up to 155-175 for those lifts, for 3
sets of full rep count, before needing any change in program. More have exceeded that level than failed to meet that level - by far.

At about that level, two adjustments are made. 1) Deads are reduced to being done every other workout, while shrugs are done on
non-DL days. On the non-DL day, shrugs are done after the chins/rows the lifter was already doing, allowing a surge of progress on
that movement. 2) A warmup set at 135 x 8-12 is added for squats.

When the lifter passes 185 on squats and deads, one of the work sets becomes a warmup set. So now the lifter's squats might look
something like this:

135 x 10, 185 x 10, 195 x 12, 195 x 12

On deadlift days, the lifter will usually drop the squat work sets. So it might look something like this:

SQ 135 x 10, 185 x 10

MP
DL 155 x 8, 205 x 10, 205 x 10

If the lifter makes it to 225, as a few have, the pattern repeats. A new warmup set at 225, and a reduction of work sets to just one.
Also at this point, it may be necessary to reduce training frequency or to split up squats and deads. This is handled on a case by case

1 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

basis.

What? Why wasn't frequency reduced before this point? Because when the young lifter asked about such, they were told "eat more."
And usually they could keep going by adding food. However, sometimes a reduction is actually needed. Again, this is handled on a
case by case basis. A lifter without a foundation isn't very good yet at identifying when they are really pushing their limits. Remember
that a first routine is intended to set the lifter up for future success. One important factor behind success is knowledge about how
your body responds. You can't learn it from reading about it. You have to experience it.

What happens after the lifter completes their first foundation routine?

The lifter is ready to try some of the exciting workout programs others are doing right? Wrong. They still don't have their foundation.
Read the qualifications in the link above. There are still a few holes in almost all cases. Finishing building the foundation should still
be the priority. It sets the lifter up to make better progress on any other routine. Keep that in mind. That routine that seems so
exciting now will still be available for you to use after you have built your foundation (and you will be lifting for decades, right?), and
you will be able to to do it better later. How? You will make faster progress and you will be less likely to have your progress stopped
by illness, injury, or just plain screwing up.

This seems like good time to go off on a tangent. There is an old saying "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
expecting a different outcome." A corollary might be "insanity is doing something different and expecting the same result." Now if
you have been making good progress, it seems a mild insanity to change what you are doing. Especially if you lack experience. What
makes you think that your changes would improve things? If you have been making good progress, the odds are badly against you
improving on your progress. Why? Because you can only progress so fast if everything is perfect, and the difference between good
progress and perfect progress isn't that great. The odds are greatly in favor of you making things get worse. Keep this in mind. You
will usually be far better off improving your execution of your existing program than by changing it. It isn't the program, it is the lifter
that makes the difference. Improve the lifter first.

So the lifter has completed their first foundation routine. How does the lifter improve? Review the eight points of the foundation.
Think also of the knowledge inherent with achieving them. That is what the lifter works towards.

In terms of program, the changes are slightly more dramatic than the changes that went on during the beginner's routine, but only
slightly. More warmup sets are required, so the number of movements done each session is reduced. As a general rule, the following
are done:

Squats and deads are split so that only one is done each day. If somebody is doing SLDL instead of DL, it is reduced to 1x a week.

The "other" back movement is added. So now the lifter will be doing a chinning movement and a rowing movement, rather than just
one. These are alternated so that just one is done hard each day. However, the new one needs practice so it is done every day, at
least for a while.

Since the lifter has a decent press, press and bench can be alternated as to which is done first. Whichever is done second can be
done at a more moderate effort. Not easy, but not killer; maybe just a bit short of failure.

So the general template might look like this:

2 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

MP 1 warmup, 2-3 work sets

SQ 2 warmup, 2-3 work sets
Chins 1 warmup, 2-3 work sets
BP or dip 1 set
rows 1-2 practice sets

DL 2 warmup, 2-3 work sets

BP 1 warmup, 2-3 work sets
Rows 1 warmup, 2-3 work sets
MP 1 set
Shrugs 2 sets

Reps are kept above eight for all movements, though chins can be done with less by some. Of course ab work is done. The two
routines are alternated. Many are electing to stick to 3x a week, at least to start. When it gets tough, what should the lifter do? Try
adding food and sleep! Then after a bit, a shift to 2x a week is appropriate.

Just as with the beginner's routine, the exact program can and should be customized to address the lifter's weaknesses, equipment
and physical limitations, and any other factors that may be relevant.

How long does this pre-foundation stage last?

It depends on the lifter. What is their background? How fast do they learn, how well do they apply what they learn?

In an old HG, Mike Thompson commented on how lifters at the gym he used as a young man were required to go through a
sequence of programs, lasting about a year, before they were really "turned loose." On this board, Tom Bourg has commented that
with less than two years of productive training, most lifters are better off sticking to basics for two years before trying much else
(Tom, sorry if I have misquoted or misinterpreted you). I think that for the lifter training alone, starting from scratch getting a full
foundation may well take in the range of one to two years. Don't lose sight of the conditioning, the flexibility, the diet, the knowledge
that are involved. You don't acquire these things over night. Be patient. You will be lifting for decades. And in just a few years, you
will look back with nostalgia at your gains during this period.

Phil Blackstone 05-21-2003, 03:26 PM

I have been training for 25 some years...

And still must admit I learn something to apply either to myself or others everyday!

Thanks for the insight Dave.

3 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

Yves Semerjian 05-21-2003, 03:36 PM

Excellent post!

Lots of answers to my questions.

I finally experienced the feeling of needing to eat more. When I used to workout following poor advices, I just bulked without even
feeling like eating. In other words, I calculated a number of cals (3500) and ate it all. Result = fat gain, very little strength gain (poor
exercise form and poor exercise selection).

This should be added to Vic's links :D

Thanks Dave.

Jeff Roark 05-21-2003, 05:54 PM

Dave,
I hate to be in the "smack on the rear" club, but I wish I had been able to train under your guidance from my beginning with a
barbell. I honestly beleive I could have been extremely competetive in natural bodybuilding or a lifting sport. The new members are
very lucky and fortunate to have someone who puts so much effort and care in helping them. Some of us others struggled and are
still struggling with somethings by ourselves for along time. My progress could have been 10 fold if I would have had the guidance
you provide here. Some memebers here need to read the above post about 50 times or however long it takes to sink in.

John DalFavero 05-21-2003, 06:03 PM

O.K. I hope this doesn't "muck up" this post (I seem to have a knack for it).

For simplicity sake I'll use myself as an example.

What should a person like myself do. I've been lifting for several fairly productive years. I have reached or will very soon reach the
goals set forth for a hard gainer (The percentages set forth in B.B. and your Q & A colum). I've never done a "Foundation Routine".
I'm not sure if I've learned the lessons it will provide.

It seems I've read this alot when newer people come here. Is it a matter of starting over? I think we are pushing too much weight to
be working out 3 x a week. Or have I learned this stuff along the way and I haven't realized it? I think I've missed the boat and the
lessons :confused:

4 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

Matthew Amos 05-22-2003, 02:13 AM

Dave, this is what I needed to know after completing my foundation routine.

David Maurice 05-22-2003, 09:14 AM

Jeff - thanks for the kind comments. In your case, I don't think any coach would have made that much of a difference. The lifter
makes more difference than the program. With your gung-ho approach and the body structure to handle it, less improvement would
have been possible.

If you want to compete in natural BBing, PLing, or strongman, there is no reason why you (or anybody else on this board) should not
pursue that on a local level. If you find it enjoyable, pursue it farther. You would have to be so gifted and lucky and willing to
sacrifice so much else to make it a career that you've lost nothing. To pursue any or all of these as hobbies, to the extent you find
them enjoyable, is as valid now or in ten years as it would have been if you had started years ago.

John - on the contrary, you raise an excellent question.

One does not have to follow a foundation-type routine to get a foundation. It simply speeds the process, especially for somebody
new to productive training. You can look back and analyze where you might have done better (faster progress, fewer injuries, and so
on) and maybe learn from that, but that is as far as it goes.

What can an advanced lifter do? Look at the foundation points. Where you perceive room for improvement, improve. Learn. We are
not static. Advanced lifters might even "deliberately" lose (sacrifice one aspect to improve another) part of their foundation at times.
e.g., an advanced lifter might perform specialization routines for faster progress in a given area, which might reduce the strength
balance. The advanced lifters might then regain that balance by some combination of doing their foundation routine and another
specialization routine that focusses opposite where the first one did. Or maybe the advanced lifter will put strength on a backburner
to work on conditioning (everybody wants to do triathlons at an advanced age, right) and then will need to "relearn" some lifts and
how to push hard on them.

Just analyze your needs at any point, and then figure out how best to meet them. If in unfamilar territory, ask others. Keep learning.
None of us have it all figured out.

John DalFavero 05-22-2003, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Maurice

5 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

You can look back and analyze where you might have done better (faster progress, fewer injuries, and so
on) and maybe learn from that...

What can an advanced lifter do? Look at the foundation points. Where you perceive room for improvement,
improve. Learn.

That made perfect sense to me. Thank You.

Jim Notman 05-22-2003, 05:38 PM

Dang - this sort of took the suspense out of what Dave had up his sleeve next for me. But it's good to know there's a method to the
maddness.

I'm closing in on 225 on the squats & DL - waiting for your instructions DM.

Jim

Yves Semerjian 05-25-2003, 09:59 AM

Re: what happens next?

Hi,

I was reading again, and again this thread, and noticed this:

Quote:

Originally posted by David Maurice

On deadlift days, the lifter will usually drop the squat work sets. So it might look something like this:

SQ 135 x 10, 185 x 10

MP
DL 155 x 8, 205 x 10, 205 x 10

I'm on the beginner's routine, and I never did this...on Deadlift days, I also do squat work sets. I'm at 205/225 right now

6 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

(squats/deadlifts) and I plan to add 5 pounds to squats next W/O. I workout every 3rd day (2days off between)...
Should I drop the squats worksets during on DL days, or keep it like that?

Dan Long 05-25-2003, 10:59 AM

Yves, I think as long as you are recovering and progressing, there's no need to change anything.

One thing that did help me with work sets is adjusting warmups. Use lighter weight and higher reps for your warmups, then do
progressively heavier singles until you get you your work set weight. This way, you conserve energy for the work sets and can
probably use more weight for them.

Like for squats, do the bar x10, 95x10, 135x5, 185x3, then your work sets of 205.

For my work sets on squats, I follow a pattern like this- 45x10 135x2x5 185x5 225x3 275x1 325x1 375x1 then the work sets. If I'm
doing under 400 for a work set I'll go right from 325 to the work weight. It's helped me a lot in maintaining energy for the work sets.

Andy Fochtman 05-25-2003, 12:06 PM

I would like to say that starting out this way and following the laid out plan as progress occurs would've probably saved me 3-5 years
of time, so for anyone starting out, this is really solid advice...Also if you never really got a foundation and ego allows you to kid
yourself about being "intermediate" or "advanced"...it really is never too late to do this type of routine. If you are fairly strong in a
couple lifts (say you are a intermediate-advanced bencher, but have never really chinned) you can tailor it slightly to account for your
bench training. Ditto for anyone coming off an injury, extended layoff, etc...

Andy

Tony Young 05-25-2003, 01:07 PM

Quote:

If you are fairly strong in a couple lifts (say you are a intermediate-advanced bencher, but have never really chinned) you
can tailor it slightly to account for your bench training.

Hmm, your post makes a lot of sense, Andy. ('Bout time you showed up :D)
I've been trying to convince myself for a long time to get on a foundation routine. And finally succeeded. If anything it's to cure my

7 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

CRC tendencies. Why can't us CRC's stop doing that?

I'd appreciate some input from anyone on this:
My BLDL is fairly good. I haven't done a max for a long while but I know I could pull minimum 300 for a single or even a triple. Close
to 200 for 15 reps. Close to 200x20 on WGPDL. My squats aren't so great. I probably couldn't manage more than maybe 150 for 3x8.
And that's being optomistic.
I was thinking of doing the WGPDL every other workout, but maybe something like SLDL would be better. I know after trying it the
weights wouldn't be nearly as much compared to the other deadlifts (I've never really used it in the past) so it wouldn't take so much
out of me while I concentrate on my squats.
Any thoughts?

Steve Brose 05-25-2003, 01:25 PM

Oh ok, I didn't see that you had switched routines again Tony.

Well, look at it this way, the time before wasn't wasted, you got stronger after all. But yes, I agree that building a foundation through
this routine is a good idea.

I would say to stick with one deadlift variation, whatever that is. Personally I'm big on the olympic squat/SLDL combination.

Lih Wuu 05-25-2003, 01:29 PM

For lifters who are around beginner level but who are not doing the beginner routine, and do not have a solid foundation, would
going back to a beginner routine cause regression, in a way, since you would be doing more reps and sets with lighter weights for
months?

With all this talk about the beginner routine, I almost feel like I should be doing it myself, with my poor squat and SLDL poundages.

Tony Young 05-25-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Brose

Oh ok, I didn't see that you had switched routines again Tony.

Seems kind of silly doesn't it? I want to change my routine because I keep changing my routine.
I've been thinking about this for over a year. It's been gnawing at my brain. I know it's the right thing to do. My lifting has been too

8 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

sporadic to actually implement it until now. I've figured out my own goals (instead of chasing other people goals) so I'm in a different
frame of mind with the lifting and I don't see a problem staying consistent. I won't go into that. I may never shut up.

Quote:

I would say to stick with one deadlift variation, whatever that is. Personally I'm big on the olympic squat/SLDL
combination.

I think my BLDL is fine for now. I can get about 25 reps with BW. My main concern is getting those squats up there. If I choose the
SLDL, I'll stick to it for quite a while, but when my squats catch up I will go back to the BLDL as my main deadlift movement. I have
a tendency to work it pretty hard and I don't want it to detract from my effort on squats or my recovery between workouts. My SLDL
is actually quite poor. If I'm not using a lot of weight it shouldn't take too much out of me compared to the BLDL or WGPDL.
Quote:

For lifters who are around beginner level but who are not doing the beginner routine, and do not have a solid foundation,
would going back to a beginner routine cause regression, in a way, since you would be doing more reps and sets with
lighter weights for months?

My thought is that it would be more actual work overall. More work-more reason for your body to adapt.
I've been using a lot of low rep sets and I have a feeling that it's going to be a big blow psycologically when I see the lower weights
I'll be using for 10 reps. I'm going to try and not let it get to me. The amount of weight on the bar isn't really important. Only that
the weights keep going up is what's important.

Steve Brose 05-25-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Young

The amount of weight on the bar isn't really important. Only that the weights keep going up is what's
important.

THIS is the right attitude.

You wouldn't believe how many routines I've POORLY designed around a simple desire to keep heavy weight on the bar. The result
was that I didn't go anywhere, and missed out on a chance to use HEAVIER weights eventually.

Andy Fochtman 05-25-2003, 04:57 PM

9 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM
what happens next? https://www.hardgainer.com/forums/printthread.php?t=11908&pp=80

Lih,

regardless of whatever your other current lifts are, not having an established groove and significant poundages in your squats and
deads is reason enough to get on a routine that is conceptually similar to the beginners routine. At worst, run your squats and deads
that way and plug your other lifts in as you see fit. i.e perhaps doing the upper body stuff twice a week, assuming your form is
developed and honed and your poundages merit it. Just don't let progress on the squats and deads suffer because your eager to
remain a big shot on the other lifts.

Tony, routine design is everyone's own business, but I've gone back to those routines many times as the need arises. Sometimes I
even find the need to retrain a groove that was slowly lost in the quest for "poundage at any cost"...so it's lighten up and back to
groove and foundational training. Ditto if you find yourself cutting back on lots of things to extend a cycle in one particular lift..

Andy

Jeff Steinberg 05-26-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Sometimes I even find the need to retrain a groove that was slowly lost in the quest for "poundage at any
cost"...so it's lighten up and back to groove and foundational training.

very well said and insightful point. this is currently what i am doing with squats. i pushed the poundage up on the squats very quickly
during a squat specialization routine and gained a lot of strength. i also developed a slight rock at the bottom of the rep which my
lifting partner noticed. therefore, i have now gone back to training squats twice a week with 2-3 sets of 8-10 reps. my groove is
recovering nicely.

jeff

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:55 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3

Copyright © 2018 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

Copyright CS Publishing

10 of 10 9/7/2018, 10:56 AM