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Monkeyman
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"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
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Monkeyman
------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
------------------
Monkeyman
as for improvising (for a .22LR)you can use beerbottle caps which you reshape till they fit nicely in a tube or you could use
aluminium screenwire winded up to a roll and then taped onto a barrel
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Kdogg November 30th, 2001, 03:21 PM
Hey CyclonitePyro so how does your silencer work on your "IMAGINARY" Ruger 10/22. Oh yeah why dont you use your
imagination & think up a shotgun to make a silencer for, so your dont have to use a .22 hunting geese?
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Monkeyman
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"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania
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Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)
Someone was joking saying we should write out bread-loaf silencer specifications; kaiser rolls for this, buns for that lol
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"You will not be taught the knowledge you seek, you must teach yourself." - Megalomania
I have not tried silencing a shotgun before, one mm to the wrong direction & the shot blow it clean off.
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Monkeyman
I've dreamed of silencing a 30-06 with a watermelon stuck on the barell, worked great.
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Teamwork is essential.
It lets you blame someone else.
"one mm to the wrong direction & the ... blow it clean off."
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Surely that's going to be true of almost any projectile?
I can see a melon working as the internal cavity would act as an expansion chamber. But a potato is dense and water soaked
so I doubt it would really absorb any sound. Bread would work well because of the porus nature of it, loads of connected air
pockets that the gas can expand into.
------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
Eventhorizon, that would be great if you could put some designs/ideas from your book on.
The PVC I found is called Rigid PVC, get the 1/2" It's grey instead of white, I think it's used for electrical stuff, like putting
wires through. It makes an almost perfect fit. My dream silencer is 10" long and slides over the barrel so 8" protrudes off the
barrel. And yes you're right I used the washer in the center to make two separate chambers. And the grommets go at the end
of your silencer, you don't have to use grommets, you could use washers but I found perfectly fitting grommets. And then just
make sure you find a way to make them stay in place.
------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
I've studied up on silencers a bit and am currently developing one for .22's and one for .45's and the .22 is coming along
nicely. I've found a good adapter for the barrel is a large, dense high grade cork. One end of the cork is epoxied into your
silencer tube and the other end is drilled slightly smaller than your barrel and the barrel is slid in. Then a 1/4 inch whole is
drilled all the way through the cork for the bullet. FOr my silencer I'm utilizing a thin aluminum tube with copper cross tubes
inside bedded in probablly epoxy, I don't know yet I'm not that far. Then fiberglass insulation will be put in the spaces and a
washer will be brazed to the end. I'll let you know the complete plans and everything if it works out well.
------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
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Monkeyman
PS: NBK (or anyone else, I know NBK has mentioned it), do you have a good OCR program. I can't seem to find either of the
top 2 in a full install package, only serials.
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
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Monkeyman
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Monkeyman
As soon as I verify that Adobe didn't stick some hidden info in the file somewhere, I'll post to my Yahoo breifcase and post a
link here. Soon to follow, converting the 10/22 to FA.
EDIT:
Here is where to find the file.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/eventhorizon308
------------------
"Chance favors a prepared mind" - Louis Pasteur
"Happiness is a large pile of links." - Me
PGP ID 0x147CEF54
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Monkeyman
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Monkeyman
Cyclonite, what subsonic rounds are you shooting-I also got some remington subsonics but they occassionaly go supersonic.
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CyclonitePyro December 9th, 2001, 03:32 PM
I use Remingtons subsonics, I've never had them go supersonic, regular .22 ammo's velocity is between 1055 fps and 1100
fps, the speed of sound is 1055 fps, Remingtons subsonics are 1049 fps, right under the sound barrier, so its like shooting
reg, ammo without the noise.
I'll have to try some other brands, but I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference since I like to just walk aroung and
randomly unload on shit. I only shoot animals when there is is one unlucky enough to be near me, I don't sit and wait for
animal with my .22
That's where my rifle comes in, when I go hunting I use a Savage .300, I shot a doe in the head this season, always wanted
to do that. It dropped right away, when I walked to it, its legs were still moving and I didn't know at the time if I had a head
shot, and I didn't want it getting up and biting me J/K, so I shot it point blank in the head, again. Messy!
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"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
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Monkeyman
Abstract:
None.
During the investigation of a murder in Albuquerque, eight bullet fragments were recovered from the victim and potato
fragments were recovered from the scene. The victim was shot three times.
It appears that the potato was used as a silencer placed over the barrel of the firearm used in the murder. The potato found
at the scene was tested and positive reactions for lead residues was noted.
Additional tests were conducted to see if a potato actually worked as a silencer. Mr. Haag's results found that the potato did
not effectively silence a revolver. A potato used on a semi-auto firearm did reduce the volume of the gunshot.
The potato reduced bullet velocities from around 950 feet per second to near 600 feet per second.
The bullets recovered from having been fired with the potato on the barrel were very elongated and "wasp-waisted". Mr. Haag
found that when the potato was placed on the barrel a plug of potato is pushed into the barrel. With the rest of the potato
removed, bullets fired down the barrel had this deformation. He concluded the bullet deformation was occurring in the barrel
and not externally.
</font>
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You must create.
I need it to be pretty small, and I'll probobly have a tripple chamber, 1 pipe inside another and the one that the bullet pass's
through will have holes and 2 chambers to expand better. Any input would be apriciated(sp?) ty :) , forgot to mention the
annoying neghbores(sp) who dis-aprove of guns. :rolleyes:
Basically, its using a .22 primer and a .22 air rifle pellet but with an air rifle barrel. Would anyone thats maybe tried this
method compare power with a standard 850+fps air rifle?
As i do not have an air rifle, i can not compare power :\
(the only air guns i have are 12ga+ :D )
By using this with a silencer and standard break action, it would be pretty good fer taking down the odd backyard kritters that
may roam into your domain :mad:
About the silencer.... I was thinking about a vented 6mm tubing that fits the air rifle pellet pretty well, and releases to a
15mm PVC pipe length - the gap filled with that non-static foam???
Any suggestions or info,
thx
rob
I piss off the neighbors already, I told them that it was an air rifle when they came over wondering what the noise was. They
responded "Thats one loud air rifle" I ended up saying "Yeah it uses a whole CO2 cartridge at once"
But ofcourse, if one can get .22 Blanks, then by all means they would be better. Im just proposing something that is totally
license free, but more powerful than a good air rifle ( as you need a license for even THEM!!!)
l8r,
rob
muhuhahahaha
>:]
<small>[ June 05, 2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: ShotgunsAreFun ]</small>
<small>[ June 05, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: electric emu ]</small>
l8r
The downside is that they usually don't have enough power to cycle a semi auto. But that doesn't matter since your rifle is a
single shot bolt action anyway.
If he was looking something that was quiet but still fairly destructive, subsonic rounds (aguilla) might be worth a try.
<small>[ July 22, 2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>
That could be effective, but I'm not sure that it would work as the transition of the bullet from the muzzle into the pipe coul
shave the bullet or make it bounce along the pipe slightly. It'd be hard to get the pipe as tight as the barrel otherwise the
bullet would probably rip the silencer off :)
I would definitely test any homemade silencer remotely a few times before used normally. I've seen a few fly apart already.
You definitely would have to stick some kind of rod or dowel down your barrel to make sure they are aligned properly- even
then it should be tested a few times.
what's wrong with drilling the barrel or the rifle, instead of adding to it?
then, add another pipe around it w/ holes in it, and maybe even another if you wanted to.
this method would mean that you dont have to worry about alignment, the loss of aim would be minimal, and overall it would
be a lot easier to make.
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what do you all think of this?
edit: of course you would want to do this with an inexpensive rifle (sks perhaps), and it would be permanent, so the rifle
definitely couldnt be found by the authorities!
<small>[ July 23, 2002, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: Tyler_Durden ]</small>
<small>[ July 23, 2002, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: john_smith ]</small>
I think the hardest thing would be getting the barrel and holes free of the little metal pieces left over from drilling. If even one
metal piece stays in there and the bullet can't pass properly... :( .
<small>[ July 23, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: john_smith ]</small>
The book is called Hitman and has been forced out of print. Someone killed some people after reading the book and Paladin
was forced to destroy the already printed copies and stop printing the book.
IIRC, the book was originally written as a fiction work, but paladin said they would only print it if it was in the form of a
"handbook". Change a few words around and there you go, fiction becomes how-to.
Besides that, lapping isn't possible after there are holes in the barrel :rolleyes: .
Maybe a really stiff wire brush or something along that line would do it. I would still test it remotely a few times.
Yeah I know what you mean by lapping, but I was talking about your article which defines lapping as using lead. Sure, you can
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stick something that fits nice and tight and lap the barrel. Which is what you need to do, to lap it, after holes are drilled.
Another good thing about the removable silencer is, of course, it being removable. If your walking around with a silencer fixed
on your barrel and a annoying neighbor calls the pigs on you- your screwed. With a removable one you just gotta hide it
somewhere or chuck it on the run.
<small>[ July 24, 2002, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: PYRO500 ]</small>
I think even if the bullet does get shaved slightly by a burr, it might not have *that* effect on accuracy, I guess at wordt it
would make the bullet keyhole.
Charlie Workman, what effect did the bullet passing through the fibreglass stuff have on accuracy?
The front end cap unscrewed, and out fell a number of cup washers that fitted inside. These were made from 1.5mm steel,
and had a .25" hole in the centres (forgive my mixed imperial/metric units - I'm at that awkward age)
Altogether there were about ten of them, and a cross section looked like this: (hope it works)
I___ ___I
HEY, my first attempt at drawing something and I understood it. Let's hope you do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]"
src="wink.gif" />
Electrical solder (and sheetmetal solder, for that matter) is an alloy of tin (Sn) and lead (Pb). It is alloyed to lower the (drum
roll please) melting temp. Use the solid-core stuff.
But, if you still get noivous about heating your barrel, there's bullets available that have an abrasive coating for cleaning rust
pits in the bore, you could use ice to fill the bore before drilling (start with water, then freeze inside bore. Careful with the gas-
operated's!), anything that you can melt in and melt out should work. Lapping the bore is still the best method, though.
Harry
<small>[ July 25, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: McGuyver ]</small>
then put on the barrel stub a 12 inch piece of 1.5 inch brass sink drain pipe.
Use metal washers to mount the pipe on the barrel stub as close to the breech as possible, with one washer at the end of the
barrel. That washer has holes drilled in it so gas can pass back to the most rearward washer.
Every 3 inches do the same but for the end of the pipe use a rubber washer made by crazy gluing innertube rubber to the end.
NO hole yet.
when glued, trim excess off the outside of the pipe. This is a flexible orfice to avoid the pop of a projectile passing through a
rigid orfice.
To get the hole fire a shot through it, cut a 22 lead so all the round front is gone and its a flat cylinder faced lead slug.
put the end against a wood plank and shoot a hole in the rubber.
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use a red hot nail to open that hole up to about 3/8 inches.
This can silence the blast to about the same peak sound level that the bolt of a ruger 10/22 makes as it actions.
22 LR ammo leaves the muzzle at about 950 FPS. so the sound is little.
Sound goes up exponentially as you get above about 800 FPS, and at 1050 it goes up explosively to a very loud noise
indeed.
At about 950 its still not very loud, but you are getting more bullet energy, and a little less bullet drop with distance.
Good deadly to 50 yards on hard headed targets. At 100 yards it makes a several inch deep flesh wound, but not instantly
serious.
All 22 LR ammo burns about the same in a 2 inch bbl. It does not reach mach 1 till about 2.5 to 3 inches. By using 2 inches
allmost all commercial 22 ammo will not crack as it exits the silencer.
The short barrel cuts pressure on the powder before it has burned up, and it just stops burning, and piles up in the silencer.
Do shake it out now and then. Don't want to convert your soldered silencer into a meltdown.
Remember putting ANYTHING on the end of a rifle barrel makes it shoot more or less way off what it used to. Silencers on
snipe rifles are usually never removed for its hard to get them back exactly the same, and accuracy suffers at distance.
For emergency use, tying a pillow over the end of the barrel is ok for close up use, like 20 yards. Bolt action rifle with std
velocity ammo can be very quiet this way. The bullet shoots through the pillow for a distance of about 3 or 4 inches. Test it
before trusting it.
shooting so the barrel end is inside the car, at least a foot from the exit window, with the windown down only enough to let the
bullet out without danger of hitting the glass, greatly quietens boom, but not crack. Use std velocity ammo. Same goes for
shooting out holes in buildings, etc.
The trouble with soda pop bottle silencers is the flexible sides do not attenuate the sound much. Much better to use a rigid
bottle, or
put a sleeve of innertube rubber snug over the bottle to stop the sound exiting its sides.
bicycle innertube rubber slipped over the brass silencer tube also quietens it some.
The plug must be a tight fit so no play exists. solder it in, or use epoxy. If must be at least half inch long plug.
This will radically silence 22LR std vel. rounds, and the long bbl slows them down a tad so they very seldom crack even on cold
days.
Also it takes a skilled eye to spot the end plug if you do it well, crown it and blue it. If range persons question what ammo you
are using have some sub sonic low power stuff to show em, or say you are burning up some very old ammo that has lost lots
of its power. Better yet, don't take it to a range. The end plug must be about half to 3/4 inch long so looking into the barrel
from the front it looks normal.
Use 22LR std vel. Other subsonic stuff is very quiet with this end chamber. This silencer works best on long barrel guns. Not
recommended for 16 18 or 20 inch bbls. short bbls exit pressure is too high, and velocity exceeds mach 1 even for std vel. BBl
friction past the 16 inch distance exceeds push on the bullet, so bullets slow down in bbls past about 16 inches for 22. Also
exit pressure drops a lot in long bbls due to heat transfer and plain old volume expansion.
That's why such a low volume end chamber does so well on long bbls.
BTW in Finland mufflers are required by law on both autos and firearms. They have lots of data on silencers on a website
there.
Search silencers on Google, and search each google page of urls for one going to finland. I think they have \fi\ in their url.
lots of charts on pressure, velocity, volume, noise, etc. They also show commercial designs.
So if you want to use one of those you'll have to drill holes through the baffles for the bullet to pass through. It will probably
silence quite well though- good idea.
I'm sure the baffles will help though, since they reflect sound and pressure and also slow the escaping gas down.
Keep us posted on your progress. Also, how are you planning to attach it to your gun?
In the end my weapon is very silent, even with standard ammo, because of the short barrel, the bullet seldom flies over
900fps. It has accuracy problems, 12” groups at thirty yards. And I’ve had two feed ramp jams, though that’s not the
suppressers fault.
Shotgun suppressors are big and clumsy, but they do work quite well. There is a company that makes an 18” extension barrel
that screws in like a standard choke tube, it has holes all along it’s sides. It has no outer casing to cover these holes, but they
claim when using sub sonic loads it reduces the noise level significantly. What significantly means is anyone’s guess. Besides,
who wants to add another 18” to an all ready long gun?
:rolleyes:
A barrel may be aluminium on the outside, but it's at least going to have a steel liner. Does anyone have any experience at
drilling this, which must be pretty hard steel? I'm wondering if normal HSS bits will do, or if you need something more pricey
like carbide bits.
I'm guessing you could drill out the end of a barrel, like in rjche's idea with a handheld drill if you didn't have a drill press. The
bore would act like a pilot hole to keep the bit straight. It'd probably help to take the bore out a bit at a time, so a drill bit set
that goes up in 0.5mm or 1mm incretments would be handy.
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zaibatsu August 27th, 2002, 04:31 PM
Like Anthony says, the barrel's going to be steel underneath, every(commercial) firearm I know of has at least a steel liner.
The steel used in gun barrels is pretty tough, but I've drilled into an old fucked up one with HSS drill bits, it was tough though,
but that was with a hand-held power drill, a drill press is recommended.
And, like Anthony says, 12" groups at 30yards are shite, how could it possibly be that bad? If it isn't a typo, you got fucked
over.
<small>[ August 30, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: jelly ]</small>
------------------------
next time use the edit post function - kingspaz
<small>[ August 31, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>
<small>[ October 04, 2002, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>
I want to mention that I think the 22LR is underestimated. I just shot through a 2 inch thick Phonebook as if it was butter. If
this was a humans head I think it would be pretty lethal.
The Walther "P22 target" is a very good choice for improvised supressors (for a .22). The barrel weight can be removed which
gives some nice Space to mount a Supressor on it. Ok, some Parts of that Walther are not built for eternity (some screws) and
it is also pretty expensive. But it is good when it comes to hit the target precisely. While my SIG P220 just acts like a shotgun
the walther has a very good accuracy.
I have made a supressor for it and tested it. It works very well. First I used some very slow Z-Lang Ammo, it was very silent,
but it gave me some reloading Problems due to the little gas amount (224 m/s). The ballistic Crack Table I found following a
link you provided here was VERY useful, thanks again. Then I used some Fiocci MAXAC (315m/s). The crack sound was louder,
but the suppressor was still very effective. For the future I think I will buy some Ammo that has around 290 meters per second
. BTW: the sonic crack already starts at about 290 and rises up to about 400 meters! so using 329m/s will still produce about
a 120 dezibel crack although it flies theoreticly at subsonic speed.
I used an Alu-Tube (200*30mm) containing a big compression Chamber and 4 little chambers. The Chambers were seperated
with some "Screw-underlayers" (30*1.7mm, hole 8mm). These Metal-slices are laying on some Keybunch-rings (31mm) which
fit very thightly (have to use some brute force to reduce the spirals diameter) into the Tube. On the other side they are fixed
with some steel-repair-epoxy that I pressed into the corners/gaps. So one Seperator is a Sandwich of: Keybunch-Ring/Screw-
Underlayer/Epoxy. The sizes of the little Chambers are unregular, between 15 and 20mm. The construction is very stiff and
stabile and weights about 180 Grams.
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I also used some epoxy to fix a Metalring on the muzzleside that fits exactly on the barrel and has a Screw to fix it. While this
epoxy-part was still soft, I used a Rod in the barrel, as someone suggested, to make sure the holes are on the right place(!).
As you see, the hole is 8mm, but the .22LR is only about 5mm diameter. So there is 1.5mm Spare Space around the bullet
(or the rod). Don't worry, this spare Space does not reduce the silencers efficiency significantly.
When I tested it with the 224 m/s Ammo I shot against the ground, a piece of earth, about 10 Meters far away (sorry, I am
not familar with "feet"). The loudest Sound I heared was the impact of the bullet when it hit the ground.
All parts were bought in a supermarket but the Alu-Tube which was taken from an old vacuum cleaner / hoover.
Since Supressors are illegal where I live, i just buried it waterproof in the forest. That's ok, there won't be a kid using it to
shoot himself or someting, it's only a strange tube.
I know, building a supressor is almost trivial - anyway, I hope this was useful.
Subsonic, for a "foot" think approximately 1/3 meter. Or, the length of your shoe. But don't worry, write your posts in metric
units, we'll all know what you're talking about.
To clarify the legal silencer issue silencers are legal in 35 States, D.C. is considered a state in the prohibited list which is
composed of the more highly populated and liberal States.
www.advanced-armament.com has a list of states and a map that puts it into perspective pretty well.
Deja_W did you have it permenantly mounted to your barrel? I would think that a factory made detachable would have been a
better choice, cost about the same, been a lot more reliable, and accurate. The AAC M4-2000 would have cost you $625 plus
the $200 stamp-tax, also you would have got a factory warranty with it. Anyway, thats probably the one I would invest in.
On the .22lr issue, this is the prefered round in use by CIA and other Black-Ops units since WWII. Well placed shots can kill or
injure depending on what your purpose is. The .22lr is easy to suppress and commonly available. AWC makes a really nice
model based on the Ruger MKII pistol called the Amphibian II and it's made for getting wet and salty, requiring little
maintanence afterward.
Some of the ideas expressed in earlier replys are rather scary, silencers should be machined and made to exact tolerences.
Imagine what would happen if somone tried to silence a .338 Laupa Mag. with a piece of pipe, washers spot welded to the
inside and it secured with a couple of bolts drilled into the barrel? Something akin to a 360 degree washer shotgun! Try
something small at first BB gun, .22lr and invest in a really nice milling machine w/horizontal and vertical feeds and lathe. In
the long run it will be cheaper than medical bills. I know a few people who have tried stupid gun tricks. One of them involved
alcohol, a .375 H&H Magnum, a foot, and a few years of physical theropy. Oh, ya and the removal of some floating ribs for
bone replacement.:eek: We go big in Montana, Rrreeeaalll Big!!! I don't what to preach but, go if you don't know much about
guns, go small. It's a lot less painful
------------------
"Friends don't let friends play with
Nitrogen Triiodide"
Can someone post some pics of this type of homemade silencer or send to my email? All the links for pics from the last two
years are dead.
Anyone form the UK want to try to send me a silencer to Canada from http://www.soundmoderators.co.uk/sak22lr.htm
Anyhow worth a try.
There are sufficient info in this thread to get the idea of how a silencer is improvised, I suggest you read it again. And ther is
really now idea to post a pic of a silencer, it's just a pieace of pipe. no more no less.
The inside of the pipe is whats interesting. I could have posted some pics of my silencer but since my brother got pissed and
smashed one of the ends in to tight I can't loosen it without damaging the silencer and revealing the inside of it. So no pics,
sorry.
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I bought the 1/2 rigid pvc and it seems to fit very tight but does fit with a bit of pressure. What I need to know is what size of
washer fits in there? What hole size is a good fit for the bullet? What are grommets? Im going to get one of these to work and
this one seems the easiest.
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/pictures/20.jpg
The military silencers are often many sequential chambers that permit the expansion of the sound blast as the picture shows:
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/Su1.1.jpg
These silencers have an excellent efficiency. The problem about make it at home, is that you will never achieve the perfect
a l i g n m e n t of the suppre ssor s b arrel with the gun without any lo ose, the hole of this silencers have the ex actly d iameter of
the projectile stamping the sound and the gas at the chambers.
I have tired to make silencers with iron and cupper pipes and I have achieved the same efficiency with PVC pipes, but the iron
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suppressor was too heavy. So I begun to use just light materials like PVC and wood.
The truth about the suppressors is that almost anything can silence the noise of a shot. You could use, for example, a
plastic bottle tied in the muzzle of the gun with tape. This silencer will work just in the first shot after that it will have a very low
efficiency and if you use this sealed silencer in a gun with strong caliber like M4 it will blow up in the first shot. You could also
put a pillow in the end of the g un s b arrel this will provide a go od efficiency, but as the first it s d ispo sable.
R e v o lvers can t be silenced because the most of the no ise escape b etween the cylinder a nd barre l. Im no t sure if a shotgun
can be silenced becau se when the projectiles leave the barrel they open an angle of tra jectory (that s why it s so destructive in
small distance).
Projectiles that travel faste r than th e sound can t be silenced too. The travel of projectile creates a loud sonic blast.
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/sup.htm
Shotguns can have suppressors, but becuase of the powerful muzzle blast, coming up with materials that can withstand the
pressure but not weigh the gun down is pretty hard. The same goes with high powered rifles.
Most shotgun pellets are contained in a small plastic cup. After the cup accelerates 18-24 inches from the muzzle, the cup
breaks apart and the pellets are let loose. This makes it possible for a suppressor to be attached to the weapon.
NOTE: The term "supressor" means something that lessens the overall report of the firearm. This includes flash and/or audio
supressors. The term "silencer," although inaccurate, does prevent confusion.
________________________________________________
My idea is to make one that uses the more modern design with individual chambers. http://www.geocities.com/ossassin2000/
supressor1.gif(Copy and paste.) The tubes would be either metal or PVC pipe. The outter pipe would be fairly wide, and the
inside pipe would be just wide enough to accomidate the barrel. The inside pipe would have wide grooves in it, running from
the end of the barrel to the front of the supressor. It would have the appearance of 3 or 4 thin bars. This is to allow air to flow
out of the pipe and into the chambers. The walls forming the chambers would be curved, and they would be glued on for PVC
pipe or welded for metal. The front wall of the supressor would simply be a wall like the others. The internal pipe would NOT
continue to the end; it would stop at the second to last wall. The front wall would only touch the external pipe. This is different
than the drawing.
A threaded end cap would be mounted to the barrel. The external pipe on the silencer would simply screw into it, with the end
of the barrel fitting inside of the inner pipe. This design would provide rigidity and keep the supressor from flying off when
firing.
Garbage, I suggest that you grind a little slot for your iron sights, so that once the supressor is pushed onto the rifle, it can be
twisted and locked into place.
My samply drawing is NOT to scale. I apologize for the poor quality; I didn't have any CAD programs readily available, so I
used paint. :)
Shoot at some targets at close range. Inside of one foot you will not see any individual pellet holes becuase the cup has not
opened yet. After 2 feet is when you start to see the pellet holes. Otherwise you get one solid hole as if you fired a slug from
the gun.
"This is because the "bullets" haven't had time to spread out yet!" Even if there wasnt a cup, you would still find little half
circles around the edge of the hole. It wouldnt be a perfectly clean hole.
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/garbagelive/su/sub1.jpg
Some times is a good idea make the barrel go into the external pipe, you can make a long silencer without increase the guns
length.
Nick:
Maybe the reason why chokes make such a huge difference is that they control when the BB's leave the cup. A full choke would
help the cup hold its shape as it leaves the barrel, whereas an open choke would allow the cup to widen inside the barrel. Once
again, that's just a theory.
What did you guys think of my supressor design? Could it work? Should I try it?
With a little metal working you can make a small slim supressor for a .22 thats quite effective.
The overall length was 10 inches with a 1 inch tube and can keep the sound down to the point that you only hear the bolt and
bullet impact.
As for the shotgun supressors, all the designs ive viewed show them as barrel supressors so the choke and the type of ammo
used isnt a major issue.
Theres some high speed photographs of a shell going off. Unfortunatly I dont know what size the shot is.
Just end your supressor even with the barrel, with good porting and a decent wrap to difuse the heat you will get an effective
supressor.
Suppression of a firearm is nothing more than Slowing And Cooling the escaping gasses, remember this... A Can or Muzzle
Can will NEVER stop the Balistic Crack of any projectile traveling much over 1100 FPS. You first have to initially Slow the Gasses
and now cool them repeatedly to have the makings of an effective Firearms Suppressor, No Questions Asked. How do I know
this 40 plus years of trying to find the right conbination. Hey I don't know an Atom from a Bond but I do know Suppressors
and there is alot of BS contained above... PVC is an accident waiting to happen. Baffle Strikes are the BIGGEST Factor in the
manufacture of a Suppressor. They will HURT you if they happen in a Hi Velocity situation, Trust Me.
Slow,Cool this is the principle and that will never change. Keep safe my new friends, Please stay away from PVC. I know that it
is strong but pressure is stronger.
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MP
However, it does show quite clearly that the wad starts to expand quite rapidly. It is only about four wad lengths from the
muzzle, yet it is clearly already rippling back, and has definately expanded. At that stage, it isn't going to be happy hitting a
hole the same size as the barrel!
Just make the emd into a nice ramp shape, to squeeze the shot again, or make the hole at the end a bit bigger. Yes, you
lose more gas and make it louder, but hell, even commercial silenced shotguns are still audible at 300 meters, despite the
vast reduction in noise.
Some modern day snipers use supressors on the .308s and .223s. It doesnt get rid of the sonic crack, but it does get rid of
most of the muzzle noise. The bullet will make noise its entire journey, so it will be near impossible to tell where the shot
came from. This is especially good if your not in your own territory.
Now, for the ones that want to commit crimes with their suppressors, make sure to use PVC pipe (no thicker than 1/8 inch) and
only use it in high powered rifles. It will completely silence it and noone will know you did it. :D
http://www.hunt101.com/img/076968.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/img/076971.jpg
I am aware of how suppressors work and ive built a few of them for an old H&R .22 I had a few years ago. To answer the
above question, yes, you can use PVC for a .22, but you should never use any high pressure cartridges with it (in other words,
use subsonics). With iron or steel you can use any bullet you wish.
Nick my post was not to berate you sir just to save some of your extremities from my former misconceptions throughout the
years.... Please continue with your PVC suppressors, it will save me the time in posts like this down the road. And Nick NO
Suppressor is completely silent, regardless of what you see in movies:rolleyes:
Even though I love the realm of explosives I do not play in their backyard for I would surely hurt myself... Now I'm going to
look up the major manufactures of PVC Pipe and buy some stocks...
MP:p
I don't think he really reccomends the use of thin PVC silencers with high powered rifles :) .
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I suspect that, without mod powers, it is the only way he can thin down the newbies who post stupid shit like "Use a water pipe
and a potato on your .50, its well l33t"
I have come up with a novel suppressor design for very low pressure loads, using a new type of plastic that melts at below 100
degrees. The idea is, if it is set onto a gun and used, it can then be "destroyed" before leaving, so that no-one can ask
questions.
Obviously, using it with a rifle or even decent pistol cartridge would screw it right up.
However, I was being serious when I said some modern day snipers use suppressors on their rifles. Although you will still hear
the shot being fired, the bullet will be traveling great distances while staying supersonic, so without hearing the muzzle blast it
would be very hard locating where the shot came from.
70F + 459 = 529. The Sq. root of 529 =23 X 49.06 = 1128.38 FPS{Feet Per Second}--The Speed of Sound. The speed gets
lower as the temperature drops and higher as it rises.This formula works with any temperature.Give it a try.
The temperature of the chamber and the barrel length have much bigger effects on bullet velocity than the temperature of the
day.
MP
1. You want to be hard to locate after a shot. For this, you don't need subsonic ammo. The bullet breaking the sound barrier
will make things very confusing for everyone around you. Refer to some earlier posts if you're not sure why.
2. You want it to be as quiet as possible. For this, you'll want something like a .22 with subsonic ammunition. This type of
setup would be used in situations where you probably won't be engaged in all-out combat. If anyone returns fire, your cover is
blown.
The military uses silencers for the reason #1. The combination of no muzzle blast, muzzle flash, dust signature, etc. and the
sonic crack from the bullet make it VERY hard to pinpoint the shooter or even approximate the direction that the shot came
from. Besides, it's nearly impossible to supress most military calibers, anyway.
http://www.geocities.com/mr_tack_driver/example.gif
Instead of hearing the sound coming from the muzzle blast, where the blue line is, he would hear it coming from the bullet
path, where the green lines point. This is why supressors are still very effective on super-sonic calibers.
NOTE: You may have to right click the picture and hit "Show Picture" to get it to display.
Thunden
By the way, I'm having some computer problems, so I won't be posting as often as usual until I get it fixed.
Why not take the time to learn how to use a Tap and Ream set and get some quality pipe short and make a good metal
suppressor? Geez, people have making them for years in their garages out of metal scraps and they work great. Instead of
wasting your time with cardboard and plastic, pick up a good book and read.
The only way to get rid of it is to slow the bullet below the speed of sound or (the easier way) use subsonic ammunition.
This is also the reason why it is unwise to use HV ammo with a silencer if you are silencing a calibre that is almost subsonic (ie
you won't lose much energy by making it subsonic).
The purpose of a silencer is simply to slow down the speed at which the gases escape from the firearm, sure, packing helps to
do this, but packing isn't a neccessity in a silencer (think coke bottle silencer).
A lot of people here don't like it when a newbie turns up asking questions left right and centre without searching for the
answers themselves. The other thing that people don't like is being asked to perform tests on things. If you wan't those
questions answered, why not make one and do the tests yourself? Obviously, the durability etc. of the silencer is going to
depend on the materials and how well it was made.
Edit: Tests show it will penitrate 23-25 inches in ballistic gel at 200 meters, close to what a .45 FMJ will get at three feet
For a shot as quiet as possible with the use of a suppressor, go subsonic. Many types of .22 subsonic ammunition have been
made mention in this thread. I myself have ordered some 22LR 60gr Aguila SSS rounds. The .22 is the most popular because
it is the easiest to silence. However there has not been as much mention about the .45 cal bullet. For more power, although
more difficult to construct a suppressor for, the .45 is the way to go. Most .45 ammunition is already subsonic to begin with. I
would like to someday own a silencer for a 1911 pistol. There are many places to get threaded barrels for them.
Most of you already know all of this I'm sure, but this is directed to those who have mentioned they are fairly new to firearms
reading this thread. I hope this will help out those of you new to firearms as some basic working guidelines.
I myself have setup a business which 'says' i professionally exterminate wild pigs and pests etc, Which means i have now
obtained my class D&H firearm licence....mwuhahaha
It also means i now own several semi-auto centrefire rfles, selfloading shotguns and many many semi pistols.Every democracy
has its loopholes
One of those two statements is obviously bullshit so you are either trying to be cool by saying you have lots of guns, or you
are being lazy and saying you don't have any so that someone else will test the silencer.
Granted the .45 is harder to suppress than the .22, but it still can be done pretty effectively. I believe it is a granted that the
suppressor will be pretty large, for it is a larger caliber gun with a larger frame. I'm going to post a link to a video clip of a
Walther P22 with a suppressor and an HK USP Tactical .45 with a suppressor. Both are being fired, and the .45 isn't a whole lot
louder than the .22. Also the suppressor on the .45 isn't really all that big, at least in my opinion.
http://www.subguns.com/ATAS/movies/ATAS45small.mpg
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Does anyone have any information on the amount of pressure a .22cal breach is rated at or the adverage pressure created
buy a .22cal short,LR,and Mag.
Also does anyone have any information on converting a .22cal air rifle to a .22cal rifle.
Mines a breach load single shot non repeating rifle that is spring powered.
Im going to add a fireing pin slightly off center of the breach so it comes in contact with the rim of a .22cal round. So if anyone
has any information it would greatly be appriciated.
What you can do is carefully take off a projectile from a .22 round without deforming it too much. Then you insert the projectile
into the air-rifle barrel and push it trough with a cleanning rod.
I did just that with a Diana (German) air-rifle barrel. It was tight in the beginning but when the lead had forged into the rifling
the rest of the passage was very smooth. I examined the projectile closelty afterwards and found that the rifling had made
very well defined sharp markings and that the maximum diameter outside the projectile was slightly smaller than an unfired
projectile. Thus the entire projectile has been deformed a bit.
After that I made a chamber with a 1:50 honing tool just deep enough that it would accept the entire cartridge and testfired it
a few times. - Again examining both the barrel and the projectiles.
It worked just fine and since then I have fired litterally hundreds of shots of subsonics as well as high velocities. No problems
at all.
By the way - I think the max pressure in .22 weapons is rated to about 1800 bars but I'm not sure.
Take care
Lamar And Stick obviously know what a Suppressor has to be constructed of to be both efficient and durable. A pillow is more
effective than any of the Junk Drawer Devices I've heard discussed here to date.
Read, get a book on suppressor design,learn how to use basic hand tools before you shoot off your mouth in a Public Forum
and inform even the most casual observer that you know nothing about the construction of an effective suppressor or even the
mere principals involved...
And by the way the 60 Gr Aguila SSS .22 RF Round will NOT stabilize using Std .22LR barrel twist rate thus making it even more
prone to baffel strikes. Don't Put Your Eye out.
They work well on the local yotes, and probably as well on humans. They give deep penitration as well as tumbling (in flesh).
The only drawback to this ammo is its price and availabilty.
Ohh well if all else fails I will just rebuild the seals in it and possibly replace the main spring with a stronger.
The Industry Standard for .22 RF Rifling is 1:16 for a 35-40 Gr. Projectile. To stabilize a 60 Gr. Projectile you are going to need
a Twist Rate of 1:8 to 1:9.5. With the Std 1:16 Twist Rate accuracy is going to run past 2-4" Grouping at 50 Yds IF the rifling
was cut with a Sharp Broach or Button. If it was done with a Dull Broach or Button expect this grouping to open up another 1-
1.5".
In a 1:16 Twist Rate the projectile has almost completed 1 revolution before leaving the barrel. Notice I said Almost because
the chamber has stolen almost 1" in chamber length of the overall 16" in length.
Now cut the same 1:16 Twist Rate Barrel down to 2" which means that it is lucky to see 1/16 revolution with rifling cut with a
sharp tool.
It does not take a Phd to see that Stabilization will unlikely be imparted to the fired projectile and it Definately will KEYHOLE at
25Yds. With this said what do you think the chances are of a Baffle Strike in an Intergal Suppressed Ruger MKll with 2" of
effective barrel and the series of pressure differentials it goes through before leaving the end of the suppressor???
http://www.hunt101.com/img/092822.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/092821.jpg
Anyway, out of a 2 inch barrel, you can use any load you want, since they will all be subsonic. Ill stick with the 19 inch barrel in
any situation however.
The larger the caliber the harder it is to make and it also gets much bigger.
For your standard .22 weapons they are easy and cheap to make with simple hand tools.
http://www.onlinemetals.com/
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http://www.doall.com/
http://www.engineersedge.com/
http://www.hillmans.nu/
:eek: Easy Project For Any Cat With Access To A C Cell MagLite...
http://www.hunt101.com/img/072069.jpg
It´s aproximately 45 minutes and covers 3 different silencers and shows the results in various tests with dB levels etc.
So if there are some interests in this one i could up it. Gotta check since it´s around 250 megs and was mildely expressed: "a
pain in the ass" to download from the Overnet p2p software.
I also leeched some other aquilifer publications like the homemade firearms video for example which is almost as big as the
silencer video but is lesser of interests, atleast for me since they use pretty exotic equipment in that manual which i think
most of us haven´t got stacked up at home.
That video sounds great, Omogen! Too bad some of us were refused FTP access...
Because I can't understand how a gas (in this case atmospheric air) should be able to move anything, including a pellet, faster
than it can move it's own shockwave. I can understand it when you have a continous supply of energy and thus heat like in a
jet engine or in a normal firearm. But when a gas is just expanding and moving itself, either by precompression or by a spring
piston - I can't imagine that it, nor anything it touches, can move faster than the speed of the shockwave (sound).
I myself have never measured any airrifle to exceed the speed of sound. But then again, I have not had access to any of the
modern larger airrifles.
I used to own a Gamo that got 1250 FPS with 7 grain and under pellets. I cant remember what model it was, but I clearly
remember hearing the "crack" as I shot it off. The thing isnt fun to cock though.
Despite what some people say, the thing was actually pretty damn accurate. At 25 yards I could easily get groups less than 1
inch in diameter (5 shot), but out to around 50 yards the pellets were keyholing. It could still hold 3 inch groups at 50 yards
however.
As far as I know, none of the .50 caliber airguns can get supersonic, but I could be wrong. When they do, they are less
effected but changing to subsonic becuase of their heavy weight. .177 pellets, which usually weigh 7-12 grains (about 1/2
gram) arent as heavy and arent as stable when hit by the wave. This usually cuases them to tumble and keyhole.
As for how can an air rifle break the speed of sound? Simple.
The speed of sound is related to the temperature and presure of the air. The temperature and pressure of the air pushing the
pellet is higher than that surrounding the gun (gas temps rise as pressure goes up) so you can do it!
Do it right, that trick will work better than you might think. In fact, I've seen such a setup using a flare pistol as the platform.
All components were off-the-shelf: flare pistol, flare adapter, 12 ga. to .22LR or 9mm adapter. Film can on the muzzle
completes the setup. Duct tape. Copper wool for the 9mm.
Those 12 ga adapters can be had in steel. The Numrich ones are aluminum.
OTOH, the Chinese Type 67 (www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/Chinese67.PDF) pistol uses a cylindrical can and is pretty small
enough, so probably it could be done the normal way as well...
Therefore I think to keep the pistol small enough to be concealed, you would have to try to work on some sort of dual-recoil
spring method, like an AK. Otherwise you'd basically have a large .22 machine pistol.
But now, I've got to sceaming about slapping a silencer onto the little devil, and I was wondering what yall think. Is the pistol
just to ridiculous? Would it be possible to sillence such a dimunitive firearm? Would it even be effective? Is the thing just an
accident waiting to happen? And finally, could the barrel be lengthened?
http://www.gunsnstuff.net/FAC/002.asp
Thanks, Mark
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tiac03 May 20th, 2004, 12:59 AM
I have fired .22 subsonic shorts (CB's??). All I have to say is that although you can easily hear the delay between the gun
being fired and the lead hitting the target (really slow), the upside is that the actual firing makes almost no noise. (You
actually hear the pin hitting the cartrige). Makes less noise than my air rifle does. Would be perfect for city use....
Also I had a dream once where I went to Home depot and bought a few of the standard water pipe fittings. Then connected
the puetogether (since threads on them all connect nicely).
Tools used were pretty simple: a grinder, steel wool, and a thread making set)
luckily the .22 in the dream alrady had its barrel threaded on the end... so it was just a matter of finding the right threading
tool to connect the silencer on. (used many things in it to reduce the noise, like cardboard baffles, steel wool, "great stuff"
foam, smaller tube with holes in it etc.)
Now it did reduce the noise some what, and 1 shot was almost soundless. But there were also complete failures (big loss in
accuracy, absolutely no sound reduction). So all in all it was only slightly effective. And since I don't need to be quiet when
shooting, I sort of gave up on the project.
I'd post pics of the dream but should suffice to say that it looked like a pipe bomb but with a tube running down the middle, a
hole on either end, and one end threaded to fit threads on rifle. (overall size about 6 inches. diameter slightly larger than the
diameter of a 12 gauge shell).
Findings:
.22 not worth trying to silence especially since you have all the different types of ammo for them.
· For 2 cans with the same amount of volume a longer can with more baffles will be quieter.
· Use of an ablative quiets most. Putting some oil. Shaving cream, KY jelly near the barrel end of the can absorbs some
sound. The silencer works by taking the heat, volume, & speed away from the gasses leaving the muzzle. When an ablative is
used the gasses evaporate it using a lot of energy depleting the amount of noise. (not on centerfire rifle caliber silencers)
· Baffles that are cone shaped are more effective than flat ones. The point of the cone should point at the muzzle.
My .22 cans are about an inch in diameter and 8 inches long with baffles about an inch to 1.5 inches apart but these are
professionally made, efficient silencers larger for a home build would be recommended.
As already stated use subsonic bullets. The sonic crack is nearly as loud as a .22 rifle being fired.
#93
When i have the tiem again, I will type another post about rifle suppressors, and try to find a host for some pictures to make
what I have said more clear.
achmeinaugen, you can weld aluminium, just clamp a thin bit of steel to either side, and take it easy, doing small spot-type
welds.
The things I found most interesting was the use of lithium grease and .380 in a 9MM.
vvvvvvvvvvvvv
Minireflex Sound Moderator is primarily a muffler of excessive noise; also known as "semi-silencer". Silencing effect is,
however, available in full extent just by use of subsonic cartridges. "Ballistic crack" or "whiplash noise" of bypassing bullet is
unavoidable evil, if flight velocity of bullet is as high as velocity of sound in air at ambient temperature (Actually must bullet
velocity be less than Mach 0.85, because development of flight noise will start along with transsonic velocity). See an image
about bullet flight noise for more information.
For extra silencing effect, Minireflex Moderators are strong enough to be used also as a "wet" suppressor, by applying about a
spoonfull of grease inside the moderator from its back and spreading it with a stick among the baffles and away from the
bullet path. Grease or liguid inside a sound moderator absorbs muzzle blast energy by its immediate vaporization. The effect
stays for 3 ... 20 shots after each refilling, depending on the properties of the absorbing substance. Ordinary lithium based
lubricating grease is one of the most easily available absorbers. See Alan C. Paulson's book Silencer History and Performance
for more details about wet suppressing techniques and noise absorbers. Caution! Do not over-fill the moderator, as it will raise
the inside pressure beyond a risk of suppressor damage!
Functioning of recoil action pistols is inherently sluggish or deficient, because of extra weight attached to recoiling barrel. A
great many pistols will eject and/or feed reliably no other loads, but those with extra heavy bullets (weight 9 g or more). A
makeshift trick is to obtain an extra recoil spring, and cut it short enough to reduce spring tension 20 to 25 per cent. This
method may, however, result in feed jams - especially when the magazine of the pistol is crammed till it's nominal capacity.
Shooting with reduced tension recoil spring and without Sound Moderator may curtail life of pistol, if powder charge of
cartridges (behind standard weight bullet) is not reduced along with spring tension (20 to 25 %). Use of heavy bullet and
reduced charge is the most advisable way to get reliable autoloading of the pistol, along with reduction of shooting noise.
Some brands of 9 x 19 mm Subsonic cartridges with heavy bullets are available factory loaded (f. ex. Lapua with 9.7 g CEPP
bullet), but any experienced handloader is able to develop and reload "subsonics". Cast bullets of lead alloy are excellent for
these loads. Recommended bullet weight is circa 9.5 g /146 grains. Bullets with round point are best, if reliable functioning of
pistol is of vital importance.
If automatic function is unnecessary, it is possible to get very good silencing effect by rather heretical use of 9 mm Browning
Short (.380 Auto; 9 x 17 mm) cartridges with 90 to 95 grains bullet, velocity ca. 265 m/s. Theoretically it is impossible to shoot
cartridges having 17 mm case length in 19 mm chamber, but in practice most 9 x 19 mm pistols are able to fire 9 mm shorts.
However, when cycling the slide manually the extractor hook of pistol will keep the cartridge in reach of firing pin. Feed from
magazine is also usually reliable, in spite of less length and diameter of cartridge. For target practising without disturbing the
neighbourhood, using 9 mm shorts is usually an economic way. Because the pistol does not "sow" spent cases all over, also
unnecessary littering of the surrounding is avoided.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > single shot gun plans
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"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX
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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Yes there are excellent detailed drawings in the market but you will have to pay for them.
There are couple books in Brownells Catalog
(Brownells Catalog is a huge catalog for gun
parts and related stuff).
go to www.brownells.com (http://www.brownells.com)
click "product"
click "search"
Mr. Single Shot's BOOK OF RIFLE PLANS - Frank and Mark de Haas. 83 pages. 8½" x 11".
Softbound. Extremely detailed book filled with crisp, clear, cross-sectional drawings and step-by-step procedures for making
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four de Haas-designed single shot actions. Featured are two Chicopee actions, designed for small cartridges and as first-rifle
projects for the amateur gunsmith, plus Vault Lock Actions #1 and #2 which employ round breech blocks and many non-
traditional features.
http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/22.html
Everything sanded and epoxied together, the thing holding the firing pin is a piece of threaded section of the bolt. The firing
pin is a nail ground to a blade tip and is held in by a collar, which is a small drilled out nut. The hammer is a short length of
brass rod drilled and threaded onto the eye-bolt.
Edit: typos
www.jpfo.org/alert11.htm (http://www.jpfo.org/alert11.htm)
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"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_916000/916179.stm
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Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
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"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
Especially photographers you don't know to take pictures of you making guns in a country so fanatically anti-gun.
That's the british equivalent of an American hiring some photographer out of the phone book to take pictures of you making
meth in a lab. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
The guy was obviously a DIY kind of person, why couldn't he take his own fucking pictures?!
That's why I bought a digital camera, no need for developing and the attendant risk of exposure.
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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
It was really dumb of Lutty to hire a photographer. Maybe he wanted a way to make the trail lead back to him and he thought
he'd win if the case went to court (lot's of publicity) and he'd have made his point. Hell of a gamble if he did.
Anyway Anthony, interesting to see your little single shot. Easy to break down and conceal. I'm assuming you tested it it, and
wonder what sort of accuaracy you achieved. Also, with this type of device I'd be worried about barrel life, any thoughts on how
many rounds you'd be happy to put through it?
.22 is a lot easier to get hold of in the UK than any centrefire stuff, and a machinegun based around that would be interesting.
I saw somewhere a working scale model of a vickers gun that used beltfed .22LR in a cloth belt.
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Of course with a single shot .22 you run the risk of simply irritating the target, so maybe something a little bigger would be
better. The US Army "improvised warfare devices and techniques" handbook has some interesting stuff in it, especially
vietcong weapons. In a dream, now let me see, erm yes, nineteen years ago, I built what was intended as a reloadable
thunderflash/grenade simulator for FIBUA training. It fired the 12 guage blackpowder blanks that are used by gamekeeper
tripwires. It was lathe built from two pieces of steel, had a locking breech and central firing pin with a safety pin slot and trigger
made from a bit of old hacksaw. It worked a treat, but it hadn't really occurred to me that with a shotgun shell it was a heavy
duty zip gun and some very angry and not at all understanding people removed it from me a couple of years later http://
theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif However, if I had anything like this in mind for real, I'd sure as hell prefer a 12
guage or maybe even .410 to a short barrell .22 :D
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It's easier to get forgiveness than permission
Add an electric motor, neglegible recoil, several thousand rounds per minute, and you've got a .22 man reaping scyth!
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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Considering that the walls of the barrel are as thick as the bore, I'd put no limit on number of rounds to fire. Although parts of
the firing mechanism may fall apart after heavy use. Catastrophic failure would be very unlikely.
I really didn't make it for any purpose, just to see how easy it would be.
I'm interested in what happened over you being caught with the 12bore zip, that's if the police were involved?
A .22 gattling would be great! Imagine the amount of ammo you could carry... A .22 isn't a nasty round but 10 in a small area
should do the job!
As I mentioned, I'd dreamt of building my 12 guage device (never intended as a zip, just a reloadable grenade for training
purposes - 12 guage bp blanks $0.10 each - Thunderflashes $5.0 each) whilst in a cadet unit. Ended up taking it with me to
the hooaah's and made the mistake of leaving it somewhere stupid. Was doing the responsible thing I thought by letting my
boss know, but the shit hit the fan and I met a bunch of very unfriendly military piggies. I'm convinced the fuckers are still
playing with it somewhere - hope one of 'em lost an appendage.
I take the point about higher pressure of something like a .410, (did you also mean that a .410 would be higher pressure
than a 12 guage?) but since we're talking about a barrel of less than 5 inches, will it ever reach the peak pressure that the
load can produce. I don't see that a .410 zip would be substantially harder to build or conceal than a .22, I'd have thought
that a bigger problem would be dealing with the recoil from an essentially ergonomically fucked device. When all said and
done, something like this would be far more effective with a buckshot round than a single .22 projectile. Read "Blackhawk
Down" about the US debacle in Somalia if you want and advert for higher calibre or expanding ammunition.
Whatever the barrel, I never want to look down it Twinkle, you're right!!!!!
------------------
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission
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It's easier to get forgiveness than permission
it sounds like your talking about the "liberator" pistol - a personal favorite. the entire conept appeals to me. And they were of
such a simple design that they can be easily improvised. Miind you Id like some detailed pics of the welrod too - they always
just looked mean.
As for the debate over caliber preferances - I personally wouldnt bother with the .410 when a 12 guage would be more
effective in an improvised piece. A .45 (ala the liberator) would of course be nice as it will make more noise (shock and fear
can be your friend) and put bigger holes in peop... I mean tin cans.
But I still hold with the theory that if you cant kill something with a .22 you shouldnt be shooting at it. .22 bullets are cheap
and easy to get, and if you want more stopping power from it flatten the tip and expand the hollow point - most impro pieces
have shitty accuracy anyway. But better than that is that if you can make a piece with one barrel its not much harder at all to
make one with a cluster of them that all fire at once or with the option of a second burst.
in reality an impro pistol is only any good to about 10-20 feet anyway and 5 or 10 .22 at that range is going to ruin anyones
day.
personally I think the best config is two groups of three clustered barrels arranged so that each group has a seperate
hammer. giving you a followup shot if need be, and the likleyhood of getting a dud bullet in each barrel is minimal.
enough of that tho - Im drooliong at the idea of .22 gatling shematics - so any info would be greatly appreciated.
later all
FS
The only offensive use of the .22 rimfire, in a military roll, is in the silenced pistol. These pistols, beginning with the splendid
Wellrod, of the Second World War, can be remarkably quiet. The Wellrod was a single shot pistol, with a silencer integrated
into the barrel. The Wellrods were primarily for special operations, and tended to be used for assassination, or for sentry
removal.
I guess (from the pictures) that you pull back the knob at the back of the gun to cock it, and this also ejects a spent cartridge,
like if you cycled a semi auto by hand (I think, I've never done this before). Someone (sorry, can't remember who) designed
a single shot shotgun that operated on pulling a knob at the back, maybe you could look at this, and go on from there. Oh,
and it was supposedly manufactured by Welwyn Garden.
Again, all officers were introduced to and given practical training in such as the Welrod (a silent pistol firing 7.65mm
ammunition, but of such puny velocity that its only value lay in killing at extremely close range)
Basically follow this link to find loads of links to sites, not sure how much is just info rechurned.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=welrod
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)
It would be interesting to know how much forensic residue would be left on your hand (glove) by a nagant.
------------------
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/nagrev.htm
I copied the patent number (5423265) and checked it out at the USPTO site. It's a plastic shell with a nipple in the center,
over which is placed a red plastic percussion cap of the kind used in cap guns.
Well, this naturally brought to mind what I've read about the original gatling gun which used an exactly similar arrangement.
Anyways, these things are perfect ready made shells for loading with a powder charge and bullet. It's a .30 caliber size (didn't
get to measure it) and looks like a 1/4" steel slingshot ammo bearing would fit perfectly. The shell, if loaded with a plastic or
glass bullet, would pass through a metal detector easily.
The cost was 10 shells for $1.50. Look for them! They probably won't be around long because some kid (maybe someone
here?) will turn these into weapons and get them recalled.
Anyways, I also thought that (listen to this anthony) that by adding a little extra propellant, you could replace the confetti with
tear gas powder to shoot someone in the face with it.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
------------------
Download the forum archive (http://blake.prohosting.com/~imsako/index.htm)
PGP key available here (http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/) (ID = 0x5B66A792)
falling block actions are nice they are very strong and are easier to make then a bolt action gun .
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited December 23, 2001).]
thank nbk2000 I see the pages now but how do I save them ? it don't work when I click the right mouse button
[This message has been edited by twinkle (edited December 23, 2001).]
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Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum (http://www.surf.to/eliteforum)
[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited December 23, 2001).]
------------------
"To live is to suffer, to survive... well thats to find meaning into suffering." -DMX
http://www.lambobuilder.com/noguns.html
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
------------------
"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
"i smuggled a bbgun shotgun" - woah! You could have run the risk of that getting confiscated!
I don't think border guards are looking for 13 year olds smuggling BB guns. Now if it was a kilo of heroin or a crate of AK-47s
you'd have something to brag about.
Though, if by "zim" you meant zimbabwe, then the assertion of a gun for a few bucks is believable. War-torn 3rd world
countries are often awash with more guns than money to buy food. In liberia you can buy an AK-47 for $10.
BTW, what's it like to live in a country full of niggers? That must really suck bigtime mangy cat scrotum.
------------------
"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. That is the end that awaits me."
Friend One: What did you do on holiday? I went round a few ancient markets.
Cambodia is actually in Asia, my dad went there and u are allowed to shoot the armies guns. Cows i don't know
(Just for the record my country is F***ing SHIT!!!!!!! the kaffas (ka-fas) as we call them here are everyware u look and they all
f****ing stink. They drive shit cars blasting their shit music and genrally make South Africa "suck bigtime mangy cat
scrotum")
[This message has been edited by Riot (edited December 26, 2001).]
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"Death should not be rushed; one should savour it like fine wine and enjoy its aroma, but if in consideration of your
impatience I must kill you now, then so be it..."
Yep Mugabe is still in zim, he's still milking the country for all its worth. He has given up kiling the farmers, but now that most
of the farms have been taken over there are food shortages there and the counrty is now starving. My friend who lives there
says u can't even buy sugar anymore.
As for killing, it works the same here(SA). A black kills a white, no big deal it happens all the time. A white kills a black, it's all
in the newspapers, racist crime, hate crime, apartheid, all that shit.
I never would have guessed the prices were that low! Even in countries like that!
This guy goes to rob these old people, he has a gun(pistil). He is holding the people up. The old guy says can i buy the gun.
The robber says ok but nothing less than 40 dollars/+- R3.50/ $.35 US.
So when the old guy has the gun he holds the robber up and says piss off and calls the cops.
Also the people who sell flowers on the side of the road also sell drugs.(cheap as well)
U can get everything u need there :)
And one question: What excatly is a zip gun? The definition given in dictionaries seems quite lose and would cover just about
any homemade pistol in any caliber, size and form.
but yeah - you got the right definition - a zip gun is basically any kind of homemade pistol - of varying calibers and shapes
and sizes, only slightly less sufficticated than a "saturday night special"
Zip Guns do seem to all follow the same basic design tho and characteristically use a blunted nail as a firing pin and a bent
piece of tin with some rubber bands attached as a hammer
the file from Phrack or temple of the screaming retards will give you a fair idea of what a zip gun is (and looking at where the
file comes from should tell you all you need to kow about the quality)
bUt I spse its still tru the in gun fight any gun is better than none (providing you gun doest blow up in your face) so if you
really cant come up with anything better then make a zip gun (genetic chlorine) >:)
As for the welrod, all i can say is I wish there were detailed diagrams to how it works out there. (this forum was my last hope of
finding info on it.)
but I agree with you when you say most people who make them just do so to prove to themselves they can. I know thats why
I do more then half the pointless shit I do :)
-H.Porn
Looks like I have even more things to do in machine shop. I love the fact that I can legally build semi-auto, single shot, etc.
rifles here in USA.
So far I have a trigger, sear, the barrel, the receiver tube, the bolt, and the springs together. It's a matter of cutting a slot for
the trigger, for the bolt, and fitting things together.
I'll be posting pictures when I'm finished, whether that be on Wednesday or later.
I know that this is a relative blast from the past, but since the forum was reorganised into the new various sub-themes, I've
decided to include the project described below. I basically wrote the information below originally to fellow forumite Killy as a PM,
but I hope it adequately describes my first attempt at gunsmithing. The end product was a perfectly servicable shotgun.
Although I do not have plans for it, it was a single shotgun design that was very easy to construct.
The shotgun was a single shot. It was quite basic. I shaped a wooden stock onto which I attached a pipe with a slot cut down
the middle which then turned 90degrees near the end (receiver). Into this I slid a standard water pipe (barrel) suitable for a
12 gauge shell. The fit was perfect.On either end of the barrel, as I cut it to the correct length, I left a small piece that I then
bent at a 90 degree angle to the barrel. This doubled as a basic front sight on one end, and a basic locking nib on the other
end. you loaded the shell into whatever end you chose, then pushed the barrel with the sight/lock all the way down the slot to
the end, then turned it 90 degrees to lock. the turning to lock moved the front sight from9 o'clock to the correct 12 o'clock
position.
I constructed a basic trigger mechanism from the various sources on the net. Once loaded, the hammer was pulled back until
cocked, then the trigger was pulled.
To reload, the reverse procedure was done, that is, the barrel turned 90 degrees, slid forward. You could even leave the
previous expended shotgun shell in the barrel and use the other side loaded with a fresh cartridge. So in effect, both ends of
the barrel were also chambers with their seperate sights/locking nib.
The firing of the following cartridge would easily expel the fired cartridge in the other side. Rates of fire with this methodology I
achieved were about 10 rounds a minute.
The above project is obviously primitive, but was designed to teach myself a few things. I put about 50 rounds through her
before destroying her. I should have a photo of her somewhere to send if I can find it. I chose a shotgun as I believe it is the
firearm most easily constructed due to low pressures, and ease of materiels use. I was intending then to manufature a break-
open double barrelled shotgun as a more advanced project, but recently have been looking at the Luty machine pistol designs
rather.
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shady mutha July 21st, 2008, 04:04 AM
If you have the round you should have no trouble making a basic gun.
I have made many a dodgy 12g. All you need is a pipe that fits the round and a hammer anything more is up to your
imagination.
What ever works is order of the day. Often I have plenty read plans for this and that, unable to aquire the exact parts I just
make my own version. Improvise the best you can.
Homemade guns are really rewarding to make and you never forget how, its like riding a bike.
http://www.zshare.net/download/1632135915987649/
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Got the .5 0 plans
from J o h n n y . 5 0
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" T h e D e a t h O f O ne Is a tragedy, the Death of a million is just a statistic" Stalin
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"I have begun evil, I shall end evil. Th at is the end that awaits me."
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Long
Ass
Sig
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > barrel rifling
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------------------
"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
[This message has been edited by deezs (edited July 09, 2001).]
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all wize men have unwize fantasies < ^ >
I would appreciate it if you would post the blue prints for the rifling tool you made.
A 9.5mm drillbit w as hammered into it, allowed to tw ist on it's way in, then pulled back out, allowing it to turn in the opposite direction.
However, we could forget the hole down the middle, and just bore it slowly.
You then fit a long steel rod through the hole in the centre of the bar, at one end of the rod you fit a handle preferably one that can spin on the shaft.
Now comes the hard part at the other end of the rod you have to make some sort of rifling file that is up to you.
You could make a spring-loaded filing device that can make 2 cuts 180 deg apart at the same time.
Old files can be cut up with an angle grinder for the rifling files.
If you are going to make large calibre barrel .45 or larger this system could be used w ithout too much precision of construction.
This is actually one of the ways rifling used to be done it isnt to hard to work out the angle of the twist you want and cut the slot accordingly.
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Happiness is a big bang!
[This message has been edited by viper01 (edited July 13, 2001).]
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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."
"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."
Sure there's a risk using them (depends how good a gun smith you are) but there's also a risk buying illegal firearms.
Some dirt/sand in the barrel of a zip shotgun isn't going to burst the barrel...
One general store I heard of had a fully loaded Mini-14 hanging behind the counter in full sight of any potential robbers. They'd even hand it to you to look at, but you'd be
fucked if you then tried to jack the place w ith it.
Why?
Because the firing pin had been removed but there's a fully loaded sawed off double barrel under the counter. OOPPS. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/rolleyes.gif
------------------
"The know ledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
A reliable source for them can be found here. (http://www .trackofthewolf.com/(S(ldcctm451ooxyuzgh4w fty45))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=142&styleID= 483).
No.
When I saw the link I thought it involved coating the smooth bored blank with varnish or something, and scraping a groove in the varnish for the rifling.
It's exactly this method, hence electrolytical rifling as an fluid electrolyte is used. I wondered which coating would work best, e.g. would be easy to apply, insulate good and be -
at the same time - easy to scratch off the barrels surface wherever the grooving is desired.
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No..the amount of metal can be calculated with the current over time and how much electrons are removed for the metal (iron) to become a soluable ion.
For example, you have want to remove 10g of Iron. That's about 0.178 moles. Then you need to remove 3 electrons per atom. That's 0.178*3= 0.53
The 0.53 has to be multiplied with the number of atoms per mole to get the complete amount of electrons we want to remove from the iron:
x/y= 51690 seconds or (51690/3600=)14.3 hours to remove 10g Iron with 1A or to be more precise, 14.3 hours to ionize 0.53m Fe to Fe(3+) ions.
Otherw ise wouldn't it just take metal away from the w hole inside diameter of the blank?
That's why the complete barrel has to be covered with somthing non-conductive - for example plastic spray or solved polystyrole. When this is done, the place where you w ant
the grooves (in this case the helix) has to be scratched inside the barrel. This is the most difficult step in the whole procedure because the helix has to be very flawless and must
not have a single spot where the plastic spray isn't properly removed.
But even w ith these difficulties it's by far more easy for amateurs compared to the other rifling methods.
The problems are making the scratches inside the barrel and the electric part.
At least the last time I read about EDM/ECM it said something like that.
But I also remember reading about it on a thread on The HomeGunsmith Forums (http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi)
And it was about rifling about a barrel! So it fits our interests perfectly! :D
Someone there had also built a crude machine sometime ago but had no real prints for it and had rigged it up from scrap IIRC.
I DO have exelent pdf on EDM/ECM somewhere on my computer, but its ~00:20 here and I need to catch my sleep, so I'll upload the pdf and try to find a link to the thread
tomorrow.
I also have it printed out so if I have accidently deleted it I can scan it if nothing other helps. The pdf has some simple diagrams on the circuitry and similar stuff.
Tough my memories are a bit vague, it is something like more than 6 months after I read it and I read it at the shitter, so I had more pressing maners to pursue :o
Edit:
Read the thread completely, it is basically the same stuff we are after.
http://ww w.build-stuff.com/EDMCompareBooks.htm
It is extremely complicated to produce usable barrels with EDM, let alone the neccessary machinery.
There is a huge difference between EDM, ECM and the method I referred to, which is seemingly the only non-mechanic method an amateur could use. The method does have
nothing to do with EDM and only a bit with ECM.
With the picture of the process it looked as if they were using the resistance of the electrolyte to cut just the grooves, with the little electrode pads on the mandrel thing, maybe
with no coating. Also you might do that to help with only "cutting" metal from where you scratched the grooves in the coating in case there was a few dots where the coating
didn't cover.
I was just about to post fuzzbean's rifling machine right before I read your post! :D Too bad you need to subscribe and pay to see the "library" they have that probably has the
plans in it...
So true. But even with free access they are excellent forums.
Also one can find real gems by lurking at the "New File and Information Uploads" subforum.
This week someone posted there prints for the P08 Luger, damn complicated weapon to machine tough.
It w as built onto a long table, twice as long as a barrel to be rifled plus some working room. The barrel was clamped down in blocks on the table, lengthwise to the table. The
cutting tool was on the end of a long rod (wooden I think) with the helix cut int the length of the rod. That rod was fed into the bore through a block on the table that had a
guide hole and a peg that rode in the helical slot making the rod turn as it was fed into the bore. Each pass cut a groove in the barrelm Multiple lands and grooves were indexed
by turning the barrel in it's blocks. A six sided barrel yielded a six land and groove rifling job. The gunsmith on sight told me that was w hy old guns of the era w ere generalu
hexagonal on the outside, to facilitate this type of early American rifling machine.
I was 15 years old at the time, and even then an avid gun nut. I hag asked the question "How did they do rifling" at the end of his scheduled presentation and was rew arded
with the long lesson that no one else stuck around to learn. Their loss.
Living here in America, I can get used or new barrels or blanks no problem. For now. Those of you living in places w here you can't buy them may well want to build a rifling
table. On the other hand, shotguns are inherently easier to make barrels for, and relatively easy to make amunition for. It may be easier to make a 410 or a 12g rifled slug
mould and just shoot a slug that stabilizes itself. Food for thought. Make an amunition to suit your barrel options.
http://rapidshare.com/files/152047050/How_to_Build_the_Antique_Rifling_Machine.pdf
It uses mainly lumber for everything and if I understood correctly, rather easy to make.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > HK SL8-1 Trigger
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Blueprints for .50BMG - Archive File
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Mmanwitgun
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 12:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you make a .50 gun, I can give you one peice of advice. Buy the barrel. When you are using something as powerful as that you don't want to fuck around w ith a homemade
barrel.
~Dave
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 01:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boo Hoo...*Sobing*
Know how am I supposed to kill Myself and make it look like an accident.
>;-|>
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 07:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lol, and w here the hell do you expect to get half decent non WWII ammo for this thing?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 16, 2001 08:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you expect to get a .50cal barrel from?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
radar
Frequent Poster
Posts: 64
From: Redding California
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 16, 2001 08:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want ammo for it, go to a gun shop, they sell ammo for them, they cost about 40 bucks for 10 rounds though.
DocPhelps
A new voice
Posts: 3
From: Backwoods, Kentucky
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 16, 2001 10:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bought my barrel from The Gun Parts Corp. out of NY. I paid $132.00 for a .50 cal M2HB. The ammo, I buy from Knob Creek Gun Range in West Point, KY. for $1.25 a round.
I can get it in Ball, AP, & APIT. The ammo is also dated between 1974 thru 1994.
I'm working on my own design for the receiver, but the steel material is what I'm having a problem with. One shop said that I need to use 4140 or 4340 tool steel and that
Stainless wasn't strong enough. But then again LAR Grizley makes them completly out of Stainless.
[This message has been edited by DocPhelps (edited January 16, 2001).]
Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 536
From: Dizneland
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 17, 2001 03:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DOC: I want to go the Knob Creek gun/flamethrower/bang show this year. Have you ever been, what is it like.
You can but .50BMG online for $2.50 per round.
------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?
Agent Blak
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 17, 2001 04:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are "APIT" rounds?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Smartguy
A new voice
Posts: 11
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 17, 2001 05:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer
(at least, I think so..)
[This message has been edited by Smartguy (edited January 17, 2001).]
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 17, 2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanx
We don't have A lot of .50cal rifles up here.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
DocPhelps
A new voice
Posts: 3
From: Backwoods, Kentucky
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 17, 2001 08:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Machine Gun shoot at Knob Creek is really something to see. Every kind of Semi or Full Auto you can think of is there. Everything from .22cal to 40mm. Flamethrowers,
nighttime tracer shoots, blowing up cars w ith dyamite. You can rent a weapon from the owner, and buy the rounds, and you can fire anything you w ant to. It's really something
to see. The next shoot is from april 5th thru the 8th. If you can make it it will be something you won't forget.
I will be there Saturday & sunday, hope to meet ya'll.
You w ere right. The APIT is an Armor Pierceing Incenerary Tracer round. It has a tip made of Thermite. When it hits the target the Thermite lights, and w ith that and the force of
impact it drives the solid Tungsten Carbide insert through. It will penetrate 3" of armor plate at 100yds.
Send an e-mail address and I will send you a RealPlayer Clip of the Marine Corps testing different .50cal rounds
smokey
A new voice
Posts: 7
From: newcastle nsw australia
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 07, 2001 02:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you may find that the stainless steel used is 440 grade or pehaps better.....have a fat time
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 08, 2001 05:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone seen this?
<a href="http://www .birdman.org/products/jaded.htm" target="_blank">http://ww w.birdman.org/products/jaded.htm</a>
hahaha.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 08, 2001 05:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cool, this site again! I'd lost the URL to it. Check out some of the other stuff they've got! The 300 round Uzi mag is great!
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 08, 2001 06:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAHA,
I think jumping off a bridge will kill oneself without spending 28 bucks.
It is guaranteed to fire "one shot" now what is that supposed to mean? I don't even think
the pipe barrel will stand the pressure. Not to mention that the gun is "breechless".
Imagine some kids place their heads right next to the exposed case head trying to align
the "1X scope", what will happen if the cartridge ruptures and sends out white hot jet? If it happened in a firearm it will ruin
the action, bear that in mind.
Anthony
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 08, 2001 08:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<a href="http://www .birdman.org/productlist.htm" target="_blank"> http://www .birdman.org/productlist.htm</a>
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 09, 2001 01:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The site is a joke, good site though.
The 1x scope is a beautiful piece.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Dow ning Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 09, 2001 02:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone here remember when that Birdman guy posted here offering us all a discount on that KeWl gun of his ?
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 09, 2001 03:34 PM
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Hahaha, w e shouldnt have flamed him away, damnit.
My airsoft glock 17 needs some homeboy night sites.
Birdman
A new voice
Posts: 9
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 14, 2001 01:39 PM
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You didn't "Flame me away". I still loom here every once and a w hile. I can follow the websites where my pics are physically "linked" via the stats function on my birdman.org
website. That's how I found this w ebsite (and your thread).
I think someone must have thought I was a genuine "serious business" and jumped all over me for trying to sell all of my BWS products to fellow posters. I reciprocated with
some kind of reply like:
""Fine then! ... because you have failed to recognize my pow er and authority in the weapons community I w ill no longer allow any posters on this forum to purchase my
products!"
Sorry!
This was also meant only in humor. I hope nobody w ould actually consider taking me seriously. I have too much fun with this BWS stuff to get all pissy and such.
If anyone really DOES get mad at me, then I'll have BWS's East German Engineering Specialists "Hans" come and kick their ass!
I'll check in from time to time. New products (and video clips) coming soon.
------------------
Sincerely,
Birdman
Birdman Weapons Systems, Inc
"Unfriendly Products for an Unfriendly World"
<a href="http://www .birdman.org" target="_blank"> http://www .birdman.org</a>
Email: EPROM@birdman.org
Ok you have you home made 50 cal barrel coved with fibreglass matting and encased in maybe a few layers of pvc pipe I have a PDF from Crapden Press (Palden press) that
states that you can make a Recoilless Rocket launcher out of pvc pipe and fibre glass you simply cover you first pvc pine in fibre glass till it get to the next size up of pipe and
cover it w ith that or cut the pipe and put it over the fibre glass I think this is highly dubious as it uses "cookies" to reduce the recoil
No I think you misunderstood me you have your home made barrel Then your fibre glass govering over that you have a pvc pipe or a aluiminum pipe this is for safty so if the
pressure is to much for the orignal barrell you dont get ahhh damaged
I do have proper plans and Id buy a barrel but What THEY dont know can Hurt THEM :D
Although thanks for the concern
A piece of seamless hydraulic tubing w ould be best, even the larger diameter sizes are rated for several tens of thousands of PSI.
Also, the seamless hydraulic tubing would have to be fairly thick in order to work.
The ammunition used in smgs is not in any w ay different to that used in pistols to my knowledge. Whether it has higher loadings or not I can't say - but that isn't to do with a
different cartridge case.
Actually, Zaibatsu's idea is much better than the hydraulic tubing, you do have a lathe and are a machinest afterall, so it should be no problem.
Now, for the LAST time w ill you spell w ords correctly and put full stops at the end of EVERY sentence.
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if you have any links or sites that you know of which have good definitions of the parts which make up a firearm [bolt, firing pin, trigger assmebly, sear, hammer] or has nice
cut away diagrams, please paste the link on here.
If you know how to rifle barrels and all the equipment needed to do this please feel free to give your opinion or explanation....
Even if you have seen somebody make one or have had any experiences please feel free to share your knowledge.
ANY INFORMATION OF SUCH NATURE TO DO WITH FABRICTION OR WORKINGS OF A FIREARM please paste it here...
im currently looking over .22 machine pistol plans... interesting but even after reading it like 4 times, i cant work out how the trigger assembly works darn it !
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 02, 2001 11:40 PM
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I don't think I've seen good plans for a making a complete firearm. I have seen good plans though for auto sears and conversion templates.
<a href="http://www.araby-dalbo.com/users/1196/161/ruger.html" target="_blank">http://www.araby-dalbo.com/users/1196/161/ruger.html</a>
that site if remember correctly has some drawings for full auto parts for the ruger 10/22.
Conversion are much easier than building guns from scratch. I onced helped out a guy that is a Class 2 gunsmith, I observed make a few legal conversions of Ruger 10/22's, 3
AK's and 1 SKS. The SKS was the easiest, the disconnector is located on the underside of the hammer and just sheared off. A piece of metal is welded on the trigger frame to
prevent the sear from falling. In that manner the sear is engaged as long as the trigger is pulled and it the weapon keeps firing. Don't try anything with a Marlin 60, pretty hard
to figure out.
Azazel
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Posts: 91
From: ...
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 12:38 AM
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thanx for the help bro
any other sites people ?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 12:38 PM
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One way you could try to rifle a barrel is to place something in side the barrel with the pattern of rifling that you want. Then you heat up the steel and hit hit the outside of the
barrel. This will force it to fill the grooves and leave you with a rifling.
This just an Idea.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 07:16 PM
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Imagine the pressure required to do that! Isn't that how they cold form barrels nowdays? Simply squeeze trhe barrel around a "mould"?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 18, 2001 09:50 PM
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I think the person that told me about it said it was a Europian method(originally).
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
HMTD Factory
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Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
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posted February 18, 2001 10:44 PM
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It's called "hammer forge"
A Ruger 10/22 Target model has a hammer forged barrel.(So does a CZ 75)
Hammer forge actually hammer a block of steel
into a barrel. There are multiple hammers striking at the same time. Because the barrel is pre-stressed, so there's no stress
problem in the barrel. It's also a cheaper process but it doesn't beat botton rifling.
BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 19, 2001 04:07 AM
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Thats button rifling HMTD
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BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorrance will bring your demise.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 19, 2001 01:13 PM
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I am glad I didn't say "bottom" rifling.
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 291
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 19, 2001 01:24 PM
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I suppose you had best leave 'bottom rifling' to that Tyrone chap.
angelo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 281
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 19, 2001 11:43 PM
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Azazel... a tip, don't start with an automatic firearm straight away...
i started to make the 9mm submachine gun that p.a luty devised. although the method is supposed to be simple it is quite hard.
i suggest you start your self from the bottom and work your way up.
i started by making my own knives, then my own swords, then worked up to a bow and arrow, then a crossbow. and now i am making a single shot shot gun. i don't know
how far i will go.
i suggest you go and find a machine shop somewhere, and ask if you could learn the basics, like welding, soldering, cutting and bending metal. i went to a furniture
manufacturer and i started to help the technicians repairing the machines, once i gained some trust they taught me all this stuff i did not know about. its brilliant.
oh yeah and by the way, look out for plans on my single shot shotgun
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[This message has been edited by The_Coyote (edited July 27, 2001).]
They have the complete sten mk2 machinist plans under the "conversions" link I believe.
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twinkle August 17th, 2001, 12:09 PM
go to : http://pinfire4.homestead.com/Patents5.html
http://www.derringer.de/index2.htm
the first one is of a patent for a 2mm pinfire gun which only contains of three moving parts and two coil springs and the
second one is a German site of all kind of information about derringers it has drawings as well
http://bbs.bianca.com/mforums/s/seymorebuttz/
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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 19, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by viper01 (edited October 01, 2001).]
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Well sh!t
The .22 Machine and the two pistols designs you can download at:
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/book.htm
These homemade guns can be very dangerous. The picture below shows an accident with a pen gun:
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/accident.jpg
Garbage, you scared me! That photo shows what happens when you didn't do a "test fire" before using zip gun. It's necessary
to shot few bullets far away from you.
http://geocities.com/osteknopp/shotgun.html
I just got through making a tiny .22 zipgun. Its less than 3 1/2 inches long and less than 1 1/2 inches high. IOWs, it can fit
just about anywhere, and it still packs a punch. It went through a sheet of 14 gauge steel, so its far from a toy. :)
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All these problems can be solve with a good project, appropriates test and conservation of it. Remember that every time that
you pull the trigger an explo sion h a p p e n s near of your face, if the projectile bar the barrel will certain explo de
The pipe I made my .22 zipgun with is 6mm ID. The .22LR is 5.56mm in diameter, so the fit isnt that loose. The walls must
be at least 3mm though. The .22 is a much higher pressure cartridge than most people think it is, so unless you have a
strong pipe the barrel will rupture. Always test fire it no less than 30 feet away from you before firing it in your hands. Look for
any stress marks, and if there arent any, then the pipe is strong enough.
Look up "Proof testing" and see the accepted way that almost every gun in the UK for the past 300 years has been tested,
and try that.
Obviously, if you let your gun rust to bits, it will still fail!
The .22LR bullet is not 5.56mm in diameter, because it is actually .223 and not .22, and therefore it is 5.66mm. The diameter
of the casing (note to newbies, casing, not rim) is even larger, being 5.71mm, so your pipe has to be at least 5.71mm to
accomodate a .22LR.
This means that .22LR definitely won't fit in a 5.5mm barrel (so don't bother trying steyr).
If you want info on cartridges then go to ammoguide, it is an excellent resource for zipgun makers. Ammoguide (http://
www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/)
If you need a barrel for a .22, use piece of 20mm mild steel rod and a 15/64 drill bit to drill the chamber, and a 5.5mm drill
for the barrel. Now before you say "that is insane it is way too small" take a round chainsaw file that fits into your barrel and
put a power drill onto the end of the file and spin it with a small amount of oil on the file moving the file in and out of the
barrel. this enlarges the bore by a few thousands. once this is done. Get some steel wool, put a ball of it onto the end of a
piece of steel rod and run the wool up and down the barrel with a twisting motion. Doing so leaves lots of small scratches in a
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slightly spiral direction. Whether this helps, is unknown to me but a 3" inch barrel made in this way shoots a cluster of 8" at 20
metres.
If you do not wish to take the time and effort just get the longest 15/64 drill available and drill the hole barrel with it. It is
oversize but it works and is very quick to produce. If the barrel is made in this manner to unload you would have to poke the
empty shell out of the chamber using a piece of rod or similar.
Although it will make the project more complicated, I would definately suggest making a chamber that is seperate from the
barrel. Also, how are you planning on rifling the barrel? I hope you're not going to use a smoothbore! :eek:
One last suggestion: since the .22 is such a small caliber that generates so little pressure, how about supressing it? The
supressor itself would be much easier to make than the gun, and in modern warfare, you would probably not last long with a
homemade .22 that's not supressed (audio supressor, not flash.) That's an entirely different topic, though.
Edit:
I'm sorry for repeating all of that. You must have posted while I was typing mine, Ammonal. A tube with some steel-wool
scratches is NOT a barrel: not one that will last long, anyway. You need to grind grooves in a uniform spiral down the barrel. I
have no idea how to do this. The grooves should be fairly thin and shallow. Since the projectile is so short, the rifling would not
have to be very tight in order to stablize it. 1:12 (1 rotation for every 12 inches) or less ought to be fine.
The cartridge should fit in the chamber snugly, but should slide in easily. For reliability purposes, you might want to consider
throating the chamber.
90% of shootings are at around 7 feet so for its purpose a smooth barrel will do fine.
I have made several zip guns in .22cal for testing and with a standard 1/8in pipe they work quite well up to around 30ft befor
accuracy is aa big issue.
As for silencers for them its quite easy to make simple ones that work reasonably well but if you want good sound reduction it
takes some work. (not that id try it due to the legal issues);)
A couple of months ago I posted a link on how to make a simple suppressor. I dont have time to look for it right now, but it
shouldnt be too hard to find.
If you want a good gun that you can keep to use whenever you may need one, such as with a burgler or in a "when the shit
hits the fan" situation, you'd probably want a rifled barrel. They are more accurate and more durable. Commercial smoothbore
firearms are unheard of.
If you just need a gun to...erm...take care of someone, by all means, go with the smoothbore. It's fast, simple, cheap, and
gets the job done at close range. Ultimately, it's up to you and what the gun will have to be capable of.
Edit:
When i stated that commercial smoothbore firearms were unheard of, I meant breach-loaded firearms (not muzzleloaders.)
I'm sorry for the confusion.
Incidentally, the 5.56mm bullet is actually .224 in diameter and so is quite a bit bigger than 5.56mm.
EDIT: grammer
So how does that work with interchanging .38 and .357 ammo? I always understood you could swap them - maybe it was using
the .357 in the larger barrel. Maybe it was that lead bullets are more malleable. Maybe I just don't have a clue what I'm
talking about?:p
Speaking of which dana, wtf are YOU going on about? Your downside appears when you start writing. Might I venture to
suggest that you think a little more before you post?
What size are people reaming their zip barrels? I always thought they were 5.5mm, as that's a more common ream size.
The .38 special can be shot from a .357 wheelgun, but a .357 magnum can not be shot through a .38 special. The .357
magnum is loaded to much higher pressures than the .38 special, not to mention the magnum is about 1/4 inch longer.
And before anyone says that the casing isn't meant to fit into the barrel, this may be true with most firearms but it makes
zipguns much more simple if the casing does fit (note: I am talking about the casing, not the rim). The other advantage to
having a barrel a bit large is that your zipgun will be able to fire all .22 Rimfire calibres interchangeably (yes, even .22Mag,
because there is enough extra space for it's slighlty larger diameter case).
6mm sounds like the best diameter for .22 Zips, and if you really wanted a bullet that was a good fit, you could use a .243
bullet with a .22 blank behind it (make sure your gun is strong because a heavier bullet means much higher chamber
pressures).
And don't speak dubiously of ammoguide, it is an excellent program with the cartridge and bullet dimensions for pretty much
any commercial or wildcat round you can think of. The error was entirely on my part.
I still wouldn't want to try that with a smoothbore because of there being no "empty space" between the rifling grooves for the
bullet to squash into. I suppose that in a rifled barrel, having it 0.1mm too small would help the bullet to grip the rifling, but
there is no advantage to that with a smoothbore.
Once I again if anyone has a complete copy of "Home Workshop Firearms - .22 machine pistol", could you please direct me to
a source for it please.:confused:
The Brown Bess of 1776 was a .75 caliber smooth bore musket that was accurate to between 75 - 100 yards. This was the
weapon that armed the British Forces which at the time was the worlds Super Power and had not been defeated. All that is
really required for an accurate smooth bore is that the bullet must be a tight fit in the barrel. Thats why in a muzzel loader you
use either a "patched" round ball or an expanding base bullet.
Most smooth bore shot guns will fire a slug accurately out to 75 yards and in fact most will group in 6" at 75 yards. That's
because shot gun slugs are designed with an expanding base. If you want an accurate smooth bore .22LR Zip Gun then just
use a barrel that is 1-2 thousandths SMALLER than the bullet itself (the bullet not the cartrage). I have made several .22LR
zip guns in my misspent youth that would group 6" at 25 yards that were smooth bores. Granted that's not the 2-3" accuracy
of a modern rifled hand gun but it's well within Center-of-Mass on a man size target at 25 yards.
If you can find a rifled barrel for your zip gun fine, if not just find a smooth bore barrel that's a tight fit for the bullet and your
still good to go. Easiest way to tell if it will work is to see if you can force the bullet down the barrel with just your thumb. If it
goes in with strong thumb pressure alone and shaves a small ring of lead off the bullet it should be fine.
Just an FYI: Most Police street shootings are at less the 7 yards (21 feet) with 3 rounds fired in 6 seconds.
The design is superb. I have looked carefully, and see no flaws in it.
An interesting project would be to turn it into a CAD model... Something to do if I ever get off these boards, perhaps!
Any E&W related files, warez, etc. are all welcome on the FTP, pretty much anything except for porn and music.
I hate be negative, but... the WRM is just crap stolen from other places, edited poorly, and cobbled together. It's crap.
And, because Aquilifer uploads it under dozens of different names, I've download that accursed document several dozen
times. It's a scourge of the P2P networks.
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Rhadon
Regards
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Sorry, but 250 kB for two visio files (which 100 people will download an 2 will be able to open) is inacceptable. You can either
upload it to your own webspace and link it or upload a (preferrably smaller) file in a more common format (like PDF, WMF,
GIF, JPEG...).
Rhadon
try www.biggerhammer.net they have a vast number of blueprints that you can download in PDF format.
Here they made it with comercial avaliable steel plates, cut and welded with an regular arc welder. Even the magazine is made
this way.
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You can find an reliable pdf blueprint at http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/survival-lib/firearms-pyro.html
If you want a simple SMG design then have a look at "Expedient Homemade Firearms - The 9mm Submachinegun" by PA
Luty. It needs only a drill, angle grinder, and simple hand tools. The downside is that it is smoothbore so accuracy isn't the
best, but from what I've heard about the Mac-10 and Mac-11, this shouldn't be a problem :p .
guys, please. The two rounds, 5.56mm NATO, and .223 Remington (not Winchester!), are, effectively interchangable. However,
the military spec. 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure than the SAMMI spec for .223. This, combined with other slight
differences in the specs, means that 5.56mm NATO spec rounds will sometimes cause problems in tightly specified match .223
Win rifles. Go search around on one of the target rifle forums, and you will find reams about this.
As a second, and cautionary, tale, NEVER assume that any round will be the diameter of the name! Even some modern rounds
are not the metric value of the name, and almost all imperial named cartridges are not what it said on the tin!
.38 Special and .357 Magnum are actually the same physical size of lead bullet (.357"), as is .44 (Rem) Magnum and .44
(S&W) Special. The nominal diameter of them are not the same as the name, as they are both .43"! Sometimes the distance
is taken across the lands of the rifling, sometimes from land to valley, or valley to valley, sometimes across the case outer
edge, and sometimes it is purely historical reasons! The 6mm Flobert-Rundkugeln (Flobert cap) is so named because it is
5.58mm in diameter, is nominally .22" in diameter, but, is 6mm long, but, in fact, it is 6.18mm long!!
Many examples can be found by looking on Ammoguide (http://www.ammoguide.com). The quote above shows that even
manufacturers get it wrong!! Take care, too, as Ammoguide may not be perfect either... Once you decide, go and look at
various reloading sites, as they often discuss the different types and sizes of bullets.
The good news is, as long as the bullet isn't hard (i.e. lead!) and the pressure doesn't blow your gun to bits, you can stuff
whatever size (within reason) you like down it.
A common "gangsta" twat gun here is a Brocock conversion (an air pistol, now as illegal as a machine gun!) which cuts nearly
half the bullet off as it goes from the cylinder to the barrel! Hence people catching the bullets with two hands...
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf
Jack's Complete, Interesting about a .22 bullet being fired in a .177 air pistol barrel. Probably some of the pressure gets
releived as gas escapes from the gap between the cylinder and barrel.
The barrels are not a problem, you can purchase it at any parts dealer, then cut it down the size you want, crown it with an
dreamell and make the adjustments needed with common tools. If you wishes to make your own barrel, then you must find
the proper shaft, cut it, take it to your machinist and ask him to drill it the proper diameter. tempering, crowning and
adjustments are accomplished at home.
I don´t bore with rifling an smg barrel, it won´t be much precise anyway !
About the forming dies, you have two options, make all the plain parts with steel plates, cut and welded together or ask your
machinist to make the dies, wich you will use to make smgs to all your family and friends. It won´t be a problem either, cause
teh dies don´t rise any supicion, even on the king of the clever machinists.
I want to build one with the following limitations: It must be built only from parts available at Home Depot and utilizing no
power tools.
(Note: I have power tools and quite a few firearms, this is for a "project".)
the Brococks are mostly .22, but the round goes in at an angle due to the firing pin being central, and the .22 rinfire being,
well, a rimfire. It's a revolver, so they don't always line up perfectly to begin with, either. You get shite coming out sideways,
basically!
EDIT:
By the way, The 9mm SMG (Vol I) does not requre machining tools. It looks pretty simple.
There are 3 main sources of all the PDF's floating around on the internet:
1. The FTP (and the forumites who have scanned in all the nice books)
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2. The old Swedish Infomania site
3. The Aquilifer site (with the "Homemade Firearms..." stuff written by Bill Holmes)
If you want to contribute books to TheForum, buy or borrow E&W related books and create your own PDF's.
If you don't want to buy or borrow books or if you don't have a scanner, then do this:
- grab one of the pocket-sized mini-DV camcorders with a good wide-angle lens
- go to a local bookstore and grab an interesting E&W related book
- turn on the camcorder and then leaf through the book... in a distance of about 1 feet from the lens.
This will just take 1-2 minutes per book (~ 30 books fit on a single miniDV cassette :)).
- go home and import the film into a video program like Adobe Premiere or Ulead Media Studio Pro
- export all pages of the book as .jpg files (bitmaps)
- load the bitmaps into Adobe Photoshop and rotate, scale, crop and save them
- load the bitmaps into Adobe Acrobat to create a .PDF file of the book we all are waiting for ;)
A book recorded with a camcorder (mini-DV format: NTSC resolution = 720*480, PAL resolution = 720*576)
is better than nothing.
Also, how hard would it be to convert the design to fire a .45 ACP instead of a 9mm? Since the design is a smoothebore, and
therefore not very accurate, i'd rather have the punch of the .45 than the accuracy and penetration of the 9mm.
Dude, I hope you're not referring to the design in Home Workshop Firearms: 9mm Submachine Gun, because my reading of
the book gives me to understand the preference for a rifled barrel. Unrifled being the ultimate makeshift solution. Author even
shows a method for rifling the homemade barrel. Even I could dope out a way to adapt the method to use a drill bit for a
pattern, and pantograph-type device to amplify movement.
Expedient Homemade Firearms was written by PA luty, not Bill Holmes. His design is meant for ultimate simplicity and uses a
smoothbore barrel.
The Home Workshop Firearms books are written by Bill Holmes and use rifled barrels, however they require a lathe and milling
machine, unlike Luty's design.
I'm sure that you could use a rifled barrel on Luty's SMG design, but you would require access to lathe to turn the barrel down
and chamber it (And this is assuming a rifled blank is available, which is sometimes isn't).
Luty originally wrote the book for people in the UK, where barrels are a restricted item, people in the US or Australia should be
able to get hold of a rifled barrel for their SMG.
Expedient Homemade Firearms was written by PA luty, not Bill Holmes. His design is meant for ultimate simplicity and uses a
smoothbore barrel.
The Home Workshop Firearms books are written by Bill Holmes and use rifled barrels, however they require a lathe and milling
machine, unlike Luty's design.
Haven't seen the book by Luty; have read the ones from Holmes, including the Streetsweeper book he wrote.
An off-topic question for Britons: how much is a "stone" in weight? Pounds or Kg, I don't care.
Ammo is not a problem in the United States. Nobody should have a problem with this, and if they do...
If this person you know really knows this "illegal gun dealer" [more like airsoft dealer], then you won't a have a problem
getting and shipping me a receiver? Packed w/ some metal junk/tools. Label as tool kit on customs, ship to USA. Top dollar
paid. Assuming you're not full of shi7.
Danke.
As for authorship, word usage and sentence structure are consistent with Holmes. As are his preferred methods, editorial
comments. Either Holmes or a poser.
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Due to may country of residence having insane gun-laws - I have been looking at the different methods for rifling a
homemade barrel, and discovered some of the problems involved.
Judging from the Brocock conversions firing a .22 shell from a .22 airgun is at least possible (Mind you that the Brocock
conversion used hardened steel inserts to strengthen the chamber).
I have been unable to find any discussion of the airgun topic on the forum so here goes:
is it possible to take a .22 airgun barrel and use a seamless hardened steel tube on the outside of the barrel as a sleeve?
Not only would the availability of suitable tubes with sufficient wall thickness be easier than finding a 5.5 mm. tube of the right
proportions. The airgun barrel OD would be easy to downsize to fit a tube - than drilling a hole through a steel rod... both
requiring a lathe though...
I guess the wear on the airgun barrel would be higher than normal, but the availability and low pricing of airguns should partly
make up for that.
This could result in a sort of 'inverted Brocock' design, that had the benefit of a safe and precise rifled barrel.
The .22 Machine and the two pistols designs you can download at:
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/book.htm
These homemade guns can be very dangerous. The picture below shows an accident with a pen gun:
http://www.angelfire.com/oz/thegarbage/book/accident.jpg
to ensure a long and happy stay here, try not to post one line with a 20 line quote!
As you can see in the pictures (ruler indication in cm. by the way) it is of quite simple construction.
Picture 1 depicts the gadget dissambled - the barrel doubles at the guns breech by sliding in place over a pair of rails. The
center button on picture 2 most likely is the locking mechanism by inserting a pin in the center hole.
As you can see in picture two each barrel has a trigger, the gun is probably cocked by the big ring connected to the pin.
Obviously the design isn't aimed at any target range i have ever encountered.
It looks like .22 short to me - but I could be wrong..
I have never seen this design before, so if anyone could enlighten me on the innovative use of laminated steel for the
barrel...
btw. smokers should probably not carry this gun and a zippo at the same time - in each instance a mistake could prove
embarrassing :-)
Also, it's customary here, when referring to a something found on a site somewhere else, to provide a link to it so others can
see it as well.
You simply provide the URL, not the whole post it was in, as we don't need all the rest of it to figure out that the site is 404'd,
meaning no longer around, eh?
In fact, why didn't you just say "The URL Garbage provided is 404'd". That provides all the information we needed from your
post, only in one short sentence, instead of an entire quoted post.
In double fact, that's a rule violation too, though it earns you a few days ban, rather than permanent, like I usually do,
because I'm in a good mood tonight. :)
sorry for the lack of url, I have had the pics for some time, and they have now vanished from the cop site.
I am not too sure about the machining marks though - they seem to be patterned to the width of the supposed laminated stel
plate. Also the pattern seems the continue on the inside of the barrel at the same rate as the outside.
On the other hand - as previously mentioned - I don't see how they could have assembled the plates to sustain a discharge.
The keychain gun was produced in the 90s in Bulgaria, sold for just 20 dollars and occasionally confiscated at European
airports.
http://powayusd.sdcoe.k12.ca.us/online/usonline/worddoc/weapons.htm
I ask because if the barrel was 5.56mm as soon as it started, then wouldn't you be unable to chamber the round?.
This is true, you would have great diffculty chambering the round. That is why commercial rifiles have what is called a "throat".
This throat is just after the chamber but before the rifileing begins. This allows the round to be easly chambered, also it is
safer because the ammount of force that would be needed to push the lead bullet into the rifileing could easly deform the rim,
causing the not quite chambered round to explode. In a zip gun application you usually would not have this as a problem,(no
rifileing) however if you are making a rifiled barrell, then you should have no problem at all putting a throat in also.
since the reciever is what is tracked by the BATF, you can make a smg or semiauto w/o any paperwork by doing it this way.
(DON'T INCLUDE YOUR ENTIRE PUBLIC KEY AT THE END OF EACH POST, PROVIDE A LINK INSTEAD! - KINGSPAZ)
Not all that hard, drill a series of holes down the last 1/4 or so of the barrel, re-polish the bore, & wrap it in steel wool. slide a
tube over the outside, fit some baffles, & screw on an endcap. That's it in a nutshell. Check out weapons like Delisle's
commando carbine for details.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > m16 dimensions? - Archive File
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The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 12:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you don't have to cut anything if you have a pre-ban, post ban I'm not sure. You can purchase drop in full auto parts for AR-15's. <a href="http://www.tapco.com"
target="_blank">www.tapco.com</a> or <a href="http://www.cheaperthandirt.com" target="_blank">www.cheaperthandirt.com</a> both used to carry some parts you
could probably find the rest at a gunshow. Nothing is NFA until you possess all the parts to make the weapon full auto or have already converted it.
godjack
A new voice
Posts: 2
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 22, 2001 12:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the sear looks way too wide to possibly fit in an ar15 lower. is it just me?
Metal
Frequent Poster
Posts: 137
From: I'm everywhere.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 22, 2001 09:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just uploaded the conversion plans.
Go here: <a href="http://metalsstuff.homestead.com" target="_blank">http://metalsstuff.homestead.com</a>
I would give credit to whoever scanned it in, but I dont remember where I got it.
------------------
Knowledge Is Our Greatest Defense Against Their Ignorance
1.) Install all M-16 Parts which requires drilling an extra hole above the trigger group for the auto Sear. Drilling jigs are availible and easy to use.
2.) Install all M-16 Parts except auto sear and use a drop-in auto sear. Plans are on the net.
3.) Install a drop-in lightning link that requires no mods. or drilling and can be made out of scrap metal. Although it will were out overtime.
Also it is considered an NFA item if a person only has one part and an AR-15. One year, $10,000 fine, hard to remove but highly reliable. The Lightning link is easy to remove
but can become problematic and wear out. But it is easy to get rid of!
Some good info about it, has some really good pics!:
<a href="http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html" target="_blank">http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html</a>
I dreamed that I lived in Australia and that any gun that dos'nt hav a cork stuffed in the end was illegal I dreamed that i wanted 2 buy a Mill and make a decent Semi/Full Auto
gun capable of combat In my dream I thought to make a m11/9 or a Sten But my dream self conceved the problem that they are only close quarters weapons And that i would
need Something with more range say a Battle rife I dreamed that i knew some one in the US that was willing to send me used cartidges
Im not sure this is the place to post my *Dream* but any help would be appreciated
Plus you can get cartridges in your own country, if you think about where you need to look...
I wouldn't say this was the correct place for your post. Frankly I don't think such a poorly concieved and constructed post should have been made at all.
<small>[ April 09, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: blacktalon ]</small>
Enjoy :)
You cant get smg cases over here or anything that will fire in a auto
Also I mate of mine in the US Is sending my cases and has made a m11/9 he made the barrel from from i think HE DOM (drawn over madrel) it works fine I have lots of time
on my hands and am a profichent Machinest (Tho my spelling leaves a bit to be desired ) so I think I could perfect a gas system. The reason I was dreaming of this is that in
aus you cannot hav basicly anything but a lil gun with a cork in the end
Edit: About the barrel He did this with a small lathe and a few home made mods I any one is interested I can wip up a DIY guide to making a M11/9 in 9mm
If you had a CNC mill you could manufacture an AR15 upper and lower from scratch - check www.roderuscustom.tzo.com (from memory) and go onto the forums, check the
AR15 section. The problem after that would be manufacturing everything else!
Paying a visit to firing ranges can get you spent cartridges. 9mm/8mm blanks can be used as-is with a projectile. Souviner ammo provides 5.56/7.62mm cases and jacketed
bullets.
oh and most run of the mill ammo jams in 9mm smgs unless you have a very nice one you also have to have a firearms licancce over here and i can not get one for 10 years
cause i have two accounts of assult police (I was minding my own bisness and they come up and try to charge me with break and enter no matter that i had just comeback
from holidays and could not hav possably have done it they bashed me up and charge me with Assult police!!)
Also if you go and tell them you want SMG brass or ammo they most likely will ring ASIAO, tell them you want a 200 round case of ex-army 9mm and there will be no
problem.
If you don't believe that, hop a plane to the US in October and visit Knob Creek machine gun shoot in Kentucky. You can rent machine guns there and they dump cheap ammo
down range all day with few jams.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Sten MK III kits -
Archive File
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Igenx
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 80
From : No Fucking Way
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 12:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if it's possible to get kits sent to the UK, but they can be bo ught at <a href="http://www.auctionarm s.com "
target="_blank">www.auctiona rm s.com </a>
I also suggest that you find a Mk. 2 instead of Mk. 3 kit. They a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e m uch easier to put toge ther. I have a Mk. 3
and I can see why- the shroud is a pain in the ass to weld to the barrel.
Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 26, 2001 11:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the link.
Side note, it is kind o f ironic that you want to buy one in the US and ship it to the UK. They were originally m ade in the U K, and
then importe d by the US.
I got M11/9 parts into aus by having a friend send them one by one with a sticker on the frount Stating that they where from
"D.I.Y R obotics" witha fake ad dress So custom s cant identify the single p ieces W ell it work ed for m e:D
----------------------------------------
use punctuation. - kingspaz
Now, as for m achined pa rts p a s s ing am o n g s t s c r a p m e t a l . H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n a S t e n M K I I I ? They look lik e scrap m etal
anyway. The art to the whole ordeal is getting custom s not to rum mage around in your scrap. The original poster only wanted
a kit so there is no tell tail receiver to worry about. Just throw the other goodies in som e n i c e s h a r p o d d s a n d e n d s a n d n o
one would ever be the wiser. Another good idea is to m ake sure there is a lot of grease and other industria l s l u d g e m i x e d i n .
T h o s e l o s e r s d o n t want to get their ha n d s dirty. If all else fails, you could sm uggle it in, i n a 3 5 g a l l o n s t e e l d r u m f u l l o f u s e d
oil that is nice and black. Mak e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s a n i c e Toxic m aterial sticker on the outsid e a n d t h e r e i s n o way they will
want to wade around in that shit. http://ebay0.ipixm edia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_f47875cb021d0b73122b81fd e5ac3864/i-1.JPG
I m ade the barrel and recivers m y self and i did forget to m ention that they where packed in grease. Lol I know that stens a re
scrap metal I was refering to m y m 11/9 the only thing that I couldent get thru is the grip cause it looks like what it is
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > ak-47 full auto w/out
select fire conversion
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When your done you just take it out of your gun. It leaves no marks and does nothing permanent. Also can be switched from
AK to AK.
How the semi-auto version of the AK works (follow along with the picture):
- When cocked, the hammer is held back by the hooks on the trigger.
- Pulling the trigger swings the hooks out of the way, causing the hammer to rotate forward and hit the firing pin which stikes
the primer and you're in business (the shin bone's connected to the knee bone, and so forth) :)
- After firing, the bolt slides back, bringing the hammer with it.
- Keeping the trigger pressed keeps the hooks out of the way, but our lovely friend the disconnector remains on duty to hold
that hammer back when the bolt slides forward again.
- Letting go of the trigger releases the disconnector but raises the hooks, so the hammer is still held back, until the trigger is
pulled anew.
- If it wasn't for the disconnector, the hammer would just rotate forward by being carried along with the bolt, slamming into the
firing pin again.
- This process would continue until either a) you release the trigger, or b) you run out of ammo.
- So what to do about the pesky disconnector? Simply tie it off to the cross pin (the safety lever pivots on it) ... this keeps it
out of the way.
<small>[ September 26, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Nico ]</small>
Does anyone have any plans to converting any common/well known rifle to full-auto? esp with firing mechanism similar to that
of a AK-47?
<small>[ September 29, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: EventHorizon ]</small>
my advise (and i'm sure that i'll get flamed for it) is that you enjoy the years that you would lose if caught with such a device.
learn to rapid fire with that AK, you can count every round with semi,
so you have full control of when (if!) you run dry.
Remember that you can own semi-auto firearms, us poor British weren't given the choice. We either handed in the hand-guns
or were branded as perverts/children killers. We could have revolted but the general public was wedged so far up blairs ass
that they don't see the future, and they only believe what the papers report on :mad: :mad:
BUT, as far as hitting anything, unless you've extensivly trained firing full auto, most normal people can't hit jack sh*t. I've
shot my share of fully auto weapons from subguns to a BAR. If its a 7.62NATO or larger...forget controlling it, but a 5.56 or
7.62X39 isn't to bad.
If you want to actually hit something, semi is all you need and if you're looking to inflict major damage, snipe. Read Gunny
Hathcocks book and you'll see what I mean. Its amazing how many targets are still standing after you cut loose with FA spray
and pray.
Full-auto gives one a huge advantage at close ranges. The "burst" feature was used in the M16A2, because after Vietnam,
there was a widespread concern about ammo conservation. However, the military, including the Marines, is slowly going back to
full-auto. The new M4A1's are full auto, and it is considered the standard-issue rifle.
The AK was designed for full-auto fire. It's not a very accurate rifle, but it was made to be reliable and powerful at close range.
If you want an accurate rifle that works well on semi-auto, get an AR-15.
NOTE: The exception to the full-auto rule is someone who has had years of training. Many spec-ops groups double-tap with
semi-auto instead, but most troops can not keep the necessary state of mind and do not have the reflexes.
I know a guy with one of these modified trigger groups. I've seen him fire off 3 to 5 round groups with pretty good accuracy at
50 yards. Also saw him open up and walk the bullet stream onto target where he could hold it for the duration of the
magazine. This guy is no marksman, either. I can see the advantage.
aprox..../=======I
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................CODE:
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I.....vertical edge...........=========solid steel======
I......................................=========== ============
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..../
.../ slant edge
../
iI've edited several times. I guess that's as good as I can do. Just line up the vertical sides and it should look alright.
everything is right angles except for the steeply angled front (left) side.
==================================
============.1/8.===================
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............7/16...cut.......=======.1/8.=======...........3/8...width
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I--1/16--I----3/16----I----------5/8----------I.....length.......
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...I---1/8---I----1/8----I------------5/8------------I
The best firarm plans on the net are the AR-15 CAD plans at http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/cad/
Hello Forum,
grandyOse, is that ASCII art you posted for an AK-47 auto sear?
Plans for different types of AR-15 LL's are easy to find, the that picture that was posted earlier on this thread was the first I've
ever seen of an AK LL. Does anyone have any information on them at all?
I think buying a drill jig, the full-auto parts and your AK probably already has a FA bolt carrier, and doing it right is the safest
way to rock and roll. But drilling that hole for the autosear is permanent and highly illegal. But hell, it's not like your gonna
offer to let any punk ass cop who might be unfortunate enough to encounter you with your FA AK to come and inspect it now
are you? Better just unload into his patrol car and beat feet while he's sitting there reciting the lords prayer atop a pile of his
now soiled pig pants. Chances are if the cop is caught off gaurd he'll fumble the persuit by trying to get his now freyed nerves
under control. Full-auto 7.62x39 fire isnt something anyone gets over quickly when it's aimed in your direction. Heck neither
are 223's.
http://www.akparts.com/
This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK.
http://www.akparts.com/
This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK.
This place sells also part kits and full auto trigger parts of the AK.
You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being
caught, since both carry a five to ten year term!
Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be
out in seven!
Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder,
wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be
able to get a jury trial!
You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being
caught, since both carry a five to ten year term!
Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be
out in seven!
Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder,
wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be
able to get a jury trial!
You push up the penalty for having a machine gun (or any gun) high enough, and people will start killing to avoid being
caught, since both carry a five to ten year term!
Yes, bizarre ain't it? UK law mandates a minimum 5 years for having a pistol, but "life" [defined penalty for murder] can be
out in seven!
Increase an penalty for a trivial simple possession offence, and you risk this sort of backlash. And you can argue murder,
wether you were there or not, etc. but you can't argue anything at all for a simple possession offence, and might not even be
able to get a jury trial!
I know this is an old post, but saw this and thought I should make a correction. The "Lightning Link" and photo of it posted for
the AK does work - very well for that matter.... only one problem. It will not work in an AK47. It was miss-identitified. The
photo is an SKS autosear. I uploaded two versions of this autosear for everyones viewing pleasure.
http://rapidshare.de/files/25343680/SKS_Auto_Sear_Plans.pdf.html
and
http://rapidshare.de/files/25343753/SKS_Drop-In_Full_Auto_Sear.pdf.html
Enjoy.
Yes, please do try to post some pictures of your FCG in this configuration.
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I had given some thought on how to do this very thing (Georgia state law states a weapon is declared full auto only if more
than 6 shots are fired with one trigger action) but assumed this would involve removing the disconnector spring and welding
the disconnector in just the right position in relation to the front trigger hook(s). When the trigger is pulled, the hammer is
released, recoil of the bolt carrier allows the diconnector to engage the hammer and hold it until the trigger is released, thus
allowing a second shot... lather, rinse, repeat... :) I wasn't positive this would work and didn't feel like messing up a perfectly
good FCG to try it.
From the way you describe your method in your post is leads me to assume it involves a FA disconnector and selector
relationship? Just interested in the process. (IMHO, a select fire is the way to go if you're willing to risk the 10 years fed time
or bump firing if not. M. Kashnikov made it all too easy on us home-brewers, though! Add FA sear and a rate reducer...
BINGO! Rock-n-roll :D ).
NOTE: It should be worthy of a mention that most Romanian kits (especially that of the Romy G type, most popular right now)
are now coming without a disconnector at all and will need to be purchased seperately in either the FA or semi-auto variety.
Always ask before you buy a kit just to be sure you have everything you need to complete a working rifle (since disconnectors
are under $10) and you won't have to pay twice for shipping and handling charges (usually around another $10 no matter how
small the part).
Kudos on your massive AKM collection! I'd love to see a pic of them all lined up and ready for duty, too, if thats possible (gun
porn spank material! ;) )...
P.S. Also, please be more careful with i/I when refering to yourself in the future. It's the leading cause of death among
newbies around here. Just a friendly reminder.
The other cool thing is that you can do it to any open bolt semi auto. I'm afraid to do it to my M-1 Garand. :p
++++++++++++
The other thing you could do is learn to put together a decent sentence that doesn't require Daddy ;) to correct it for you. :p
NBK
Here is the pics of the AK's. This is just some of them, the 2 in the middle have custom wood stocks I made! http://
Badcompanyfiishing.Com/IMG_2266.JPG
Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the reminder but actually I am within my limits, And as far as the snacks, LOL, they're
after hours and she works for the agency you specified!
++++++
You too.
NBK
Very good point. This is getting to be one of those "If I had a nickle for every..." type of thing. Keep one on hand for this
reason. If you're not sure, ask.
Numrich, among others, have component kits for the Romanian variant for < $120.00. Contains all except receiver, stock and
mag.
That actually sounds pretty interesting (and I have heard of it), I am not sure I understand how such a modification works is
there a document or diagram that explains it?
+++++++++++
NBK
Ok, sorry.. The photo was simply meant as an illustration to BulletSmith's comment above.
I have heard of a trick where you tie a string to the trigger, loop it around the buttstock and then tie it to the charging handle.
When you release the bolt, it goes forward and after it locks up it pulls the triger itself. You could maybe make it more
functional by adding a bunjee cord to the mix.
Sorry it's not original. The picture isn't mine, and I wasn't claiming that it was. I should have quoted BulletSmith to begin with
though.
P.S. Until a Google search a few minutes ago, I had no idea what 4chan is.
http://rapidshare.de/files/28048409/AK_DIAS.rar.html
+++++++
NBK
Slam firing is no good for a combat weapon. First, it lacks select fire capability. Second, the hammer follows the carrier on it's
way into battery. It frequently lacks the striking strength to set off hard milspec primers. In other words, don't trust your life to
a gun that may not go bang.
The AK series weapons (AK47,AKM,AK74) are readily converted back to their select fire capability by purchasing a perfectly
legal, full auto, fire control group. The FCG has an autosear and rate reducer(sometimes called an anti-bounce device). This is
where the drilling of the dreaded third hole comes into play.
You drill that hole and get caught, 10 years club fed.
You also have to notch one of the lower rails so that the autosear sticks up and can be tripped by the bolt/carrier to release
the hammer. This way the hammer gets a full strength drop on the firing pin for those hard milspec primers.
The parts are easily obtained online for about $25. You would need a template (sorry, don't have one) to correctly drill the
third axis pin hole. 5mm on one side, 7mm bit for the other.
To have a gun worthy of trusting your life with, it needs to be in it's original configuration. DIAS, shoestrings, bump firing are
all fun but have little combat value. One setup as a SAW might be of some value if used properly with support. The SKS would
be my choice if I were to make a SAW.
If you want to learn how to build your own AK there is a ton of home builders that post in the "Build it yourself" section here
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77
Very interesting...
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Devnull December 20th, 2006, 02:47 AM
There are several sites out there which have the FA parts for the AK-47.
Theoretically you can get the tax stamp to allow you to build your own reciever that is full auto.
If you don't like meeting bubba and you live in a state where personal property laws are completely eroded it may be worth
it.$200 fee/tax, fingerprints and a background check and they should approve it.
Since a home made AK-47 is technically not an AK you can get it approved as a USA made device. (Or so I have been told
from a lawyer friend of mine...)
But hey, your not gonna take that bad boy to the shooting range anyway, are you? Who's gonna know?
Just search on the internet for full auto ak-47 for dummies. Good instructions are out there!
For a $200 tax stamp (each) you can build silencers, Short Barrel rifles, and Short barrel shotguns. But you can't build machine
guns.
I believe DrugRunR meant the machine gun and ballistic knife ban of '86, which was attached to the Firearm Owner's
Protection Act.
Anyone who has or can obtain the correct NFA approved papers can have a preban transferred to them legally (with taxes
applied also), but no more manufacturing going on for private use.
Check the cost of preban autos and it will reflect what I'm saying is true. There are only so many prebans out there and
available for purchase, so the cost is astronomical...
The receiver of the manufactured firearm for sale must include the name and address of the manufacturer imprinted or
engraved upon it to even a certain size and depth. :rolleyes:
You do not require such a license to make a _______-action (insert legally acceptable action here) firearm for your own
personal use in the USA nor does it require any such name or address to be inscribed upon it, however, were one to make
several "personal weapons" then find his/herself in dire finacial straights and need to sell them all... it might attract the kind
of attentions you'd certianly want to avoid, depending on the quantity sold.
Just an observation I made as I do pay close attention to such laws and restrictions for safety sake. :) (me so law-abiding! We
need a halo emote just for me... :D)
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C44.txt
Legal issues aside, except for the dangers of slam firing a weapon, a lot of the preceeding information on AK full autos/
conversions is incorrect or misleading. Slamfiring risks a bolt not being fully engaged, which can result in a cartridge rupturing
and dispelling gases and fragments back at the shooter. Safe operation of a firearm requires that the headspace, the distance
between the rear of a chambered cartridge and the front face of a locked bolt be within set parameters. Insufficient headspace
prevents the bolt from locking, while too much headspace allows the cartridge to stretch rearward when its fired - which
increases the likelihood that the cartridge will rupture and/or blow back gas and fragments at the shooter. The difference
between acceptable and non-acceptable headspace is measured in the thousands of an inch, so slam firing has risks
associated with it.
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
With regards to Romanian full autos, they did come out with a model with a full auto assembly that mounts forward of the
trigger - but that assembly is for three round bursts. A full auto sear and disconnector are required, so its not a self contained
full auto mechanism forward of the trigger. A diagram of the Romanian setup follows:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/361/3shotburstaktriggerdiagbp7.gif
Anyway, the full auto trigger group will still result in slam firing. A full auto AK also includes full auto rails, full auto bolt, full
auto bolt carrier, and a full auto safety/selector switch.
I'm no expert on full autos, but as I understand it the full autobolt and/or full auto carrier disengages the auto sear in a timed
manner to ensure that the bolt is closed or has a chance to fully close prior to the hammer being released. In all likelihood
the safety/selector switch disengages the disconnector. I have no clue what the notch in the full auto rail does.
One of the projects on my list is to build a cutaway full auto receiver. If I ever get around to it I'll post pics or a vid.
I tried to use as much of the illustration you provided as I could to show the notch or slot in the right lower rail and how it's
needed for the the full auto sear to work.
Everything else you mentioned is pretty much correct, the FA disconnector differs from the semi-auto one in that it has a "tail"
that the selector/safety uses to disengage it, whereas the semi does not (this lack of a tail will in and of itself render an
otherwise FA AKM into a semi-auto only one, but is not enough for the BATFE to recognise as a legal semi-auto only rifle).
From this doctored picture I hope you can get a better idea of how simple the design really is.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/FASearRelationship.jpg
When the Bolt carrier brings the bolt to lock within the front trunion it passes over the portion of the FA sear sticking up above
the slot in the lower rail, throwing the sear forward, thus tripping the hammer and firing the round.
You are correct in how the selector/safety holds the disconnector out of operation, so as long as the trigger is held... the bolt
carrier will continue to move freely back and forth, first resetting the hammer to horizontal position (caught again by the notch
in the front of the hammer by the auto sear on it's rearward motion, then travelling forward under spring pressure to strip the
next round from the magazine and carry it to chamber, tripping the auto sear again once bolt is locked into battery to release
the hammer... repeats itself until trigger is released and front hook of trigger interupts the cycle by holding the hammer back
despite auto sear already being tripped for next shot.
The illustration you provided showing the three-round burst mechanism is more than likely of Polish manufacture, as they were
the first to incorperate this into an AKM derivative they designed called the TANTAL, chambering the 5.45 X 39. Now, I believe
Russia also uses it on there AK-100+ series, IIRC.
Disclaimer: Having an AKM with a receiver which has the holes drilled for the Auto Sear pivot pin AND/OR the slot in the Lower
Right rail for the Auto Sear is considered by the BATFE as being in possession of a FULLY AUTOMATIC rifle, whether all the
other FA parts are present or not...
http://www.bsg-dornier.de/schiessen/filme/filme.htm[/url]
Without an auto sear or disconnector, the hammer would simply ride the bolt carrier back into battery without enough inertia to
fire the round. This especially being true due to the bump on the rear of the FA bolt carrier, which is only a safety feature the
FA bolt carrier has (and the semi-auto only bolt carrier has not) to eliminate the risk of possible slam-fires.
Your taking the time on the illustrations and explanation is acknowledged and appreciated, but there are still alot of missing
pieces to the puzzle.
First, the notch I was talking about is not the one in the drawing - but the notch in the ejector port rail (left side of receiver):
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3614/akreceiverrailannotatedtf7.jpg
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/3715/picturejf7.jpg
The cutout notch you refer to can be seen in its correct orientation (below the slide, in front of the rivet). I'll bear your advice in
mind, but that would position the full auto sear over the magazine well and some distance forward of the hammer.
The receiver in the photographs is a DCI "Premium" receiver. The "Premium" designation includes a receiver with full auto
rails.
If anyone's got illustrations or photographs of full auto trigger group installed in a receiver - a post or link would be greatly
appreciated. The "Full Auto Conversion" book on the AK is essentially useless. It doesn't even show an isnstalled trigger group
(I'd have been ripped off if I paid money for it).
My only experiences with a select-fire AKM are from handling one a friend had and brought over to show me. A lot of things
clicked in my head once I saw how it was all put together and worked the action slowly, by hand, in each firing mode.
Aside from the lower right rail there is no need for a notch or cutout on the ejector (left lower rail) unless this has something to
do with the tri-burst parts, which I doubt, but am not sure of entirely. The tri-burst mechanisms I have never had in my
possession to fiddle with.
The cutout notch you refer to can be seen in its correct orientation (below the slide, in front of the rivet).
This is an easily made mistake. The right lower rail you show does not have the notch for the auto sear, which it DOES need to
be an auto, or it is too dark of a picture to be seen.
Look more carefully at the rail from the picture then at the rail in the DCI receiver. The rail in the photo does not appear to
have a slotted place for the Auto sear to poke up through whereas the one in the drawing does. The curl on the underside of
the LR rail (just atop the mag dimple) is for magazine stability and nothing more (in fact, I have had to grind these down
some on Tapco rails to get the mag to fit correctly without canting when building my own semi-auto model. Grind not enough
off and the mag will cant and sometimes not feed correctly from the left side of the mag... too much and it will feed correctly
but have some irritating magazine wobble).
Bear also in mind that in order for DCI to be able to sell a receiver with a slot on the LR rail for an auto sear it would be a class
3 item, as the receiver is the weapon according to BATFE. The slot makes it a "machinegun" as opposed to a semi-auto
whether the auto sear pivot-pin holes are drilled yet or not. (man, I know it sucks).
Just look very carefully at the rail in your DCI and compare it to the one in the drawing. If there's a difference it should be
apparent by paying close attention to the integrity of the topmost side of the rail (the part which will be in contact with the
bolt). If it has a cutout about 5/8" x 1/8" on the receiver wall side it's full auto, if it is consistant in it's width the entire length
of the rail it is not FA.
Here's a picture of a semi-auto rail I have on hand. It's from Tapco. Highlighted are the areas which would need to be
removed before it will accept the auto sear:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/example01.jpg
Alternatively, since the rails are already spotwelded in place on the DCI receiver, you could cut out the entire section with a
Dremel-tool and use it like that. The space removed is about 5/8" and the section of bolt which rides on this rail is also about
5/8"... SWIM tells me you shouldn't have much problem since the bolt will pass over this entirely too quickly for the bolt to
drop into, so long as the frontmost section remains on the same level as the rearmost (ie: not bent up or down)... :)
Here is a picture I just took of how the FA fire control group goes together:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/example02.jpg
Note: Yes, I do have some FA parts left over from a kit or two. No, I do not ever use them in any of my semi-auto builds. I
prefer to replace the entire FCG with US made parts to be 922r compliant, leaving out the rate reducer and it's spring.
Now I can see that DCI might have played the 'confusion card' to their advantage... :mad:
I'll bear your advice in mind, but that would position the full auto sear over the magazine well and some distance forward of
the hammer.
Actually, the armature of the auto sear which contacts the bolt carrier rides beside the magazine in the space allowed (about 1/
8") by the magazine dimple and LR rail curl and rests just in front of the center support. The auto sear pivot axis is just
behind the magazine well, does not interfere with the magazine at all, yet it is barely behind (and somewhat) below the center
support. It IS in front of the hammer pivot, though. (it is confusing when explaining it, I know, but so simple when you just
see it. My template is in .DXF format and I cannot provide a picture since my printer is out of ink and I cannot print it then
scan it full size. I'll post it to Rapidshare in .DXF format if anyone needs it, though).
I have a Tapco flat and I think I have some thin cardboard handy. If needed, I could cut out a cardboard flat, bend and
maybe somehow glue it into shape, and take some better pictures.
If this is needed or asked of me, it will better illustrate how it all fits, and I'll be happy to give it a shot. I will NOT brave the
cold to to bend the flat, however (BRRR!), and will DEFINITELY not make a select fire receiver... sorry! :o
Semi-auto AK's don't have this left rail notch. I don't know what that notch is for, but sooner or later that will be figured out.
As for the cutout notch on the right rail, you appear to be absolutely correct. Courtesy of a full auto kit, photos of the right rail
follow:
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7837/rail1oy8.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7939/rail2se7.jpg
So if I'm not misinterpreting anything, the auto sear relationship to the right rail would look something like this:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9402/wautosearhg3.jpg
And aligning the spring as shown below, with the bent end of the spring fit into the small hole in the auto sear and the coiled
hole in the spring lined up with the larger retainer pin hole in the auto sear:
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/9089/searwspringmz8.jpg
http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/6328/searwspring2hk7.jpg
I haven't figured out what the free end of the spring goes, so any help in this regard would be appreciated ... :rolleyes:
I have a Tapco flat and I think I have some thin cardboard handy. If needed, I could cut out a cardboard flat, bend and
maybe somehow glue it into shape, and take some better pictures.
You're explaining yourself fine without the model. Yesterday this was impossible:
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4518/triggergrouplm6.jpg
Now for the legal disclaimer: I fully intend to build a full auto ak - but only after researching and complying with the legal
requirements. Thus far my research leads me to believe that Class III weapons are legal to own in my home state of Florida,
but an individual needs to have a chief law enforcement officer "sign off" that the individual is law abiding, and not a risk to
society or the established order. Or something like that. The problem is, reportedly, that law enforcement won't sign the
required form. The alternative may be to register the Class III weapon to a corporation - as corporations aren't required to
have a chief law enforcement officer sign off. This applies to ownership of silencers, but I'm not positive it applies to full autos
or full autos manufactured after 1986. Will post a legal treatise after researching the matter thoroughly.
Simple. It goes under the Hammer pin and over the FCG pin. This negates the need for a "shepherds hook" or E-clips to hold
all the pins in... :D (M. Kalashnikov is my fricken HERO!).
Looks like you've got it licked! (that is... except for the legal battle. :eek: ).
And, I don't know how safe it would be, but I believe it's possible to go straight full auto by just removing the disconnecter
altogether.
Plus that's gives you denyability, because you can say you must have forgotten that step upon reassembling your rifle ;)
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Gun plans
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So if you have some links to (preferably pdf) gun plans, you are pushed to post them here. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
I already have those exploded drawings of Urban-Armory, Gunsworld etc... the same collection btw seems to be in a variety of web sites. And they are not plans, exactly.
The Sten mk II plans: Someone mentioned in an other topic that www.wetworx.com (http://www.wetworx.com) has a link on the "conversions" section. Well, they don't have
a link, but they have <a href="http://www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf">the pdf</a> as www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf (http://www.wetworx.com/sten.pdf) !!(Found that while
searching for gun plans. The only set of plans I found http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited August 15, 2001).]
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > m g42 project
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > C onverting SAR 1 AK-47
to Full-Auto or Select-Fire
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-------------------------
I d e a s a r e m ore powerful than guns. W e would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ide a s ?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)
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-------------------------
I d e a s a r e m ore powerful than guns. W e would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ide a s ?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)
[This message has been edited by Teck (edited May 30, 2001).]
http://www.sksparts.com /whattodowhenthepolicecom e . h t m l
http://plauder-sm ilies.de/rough/com e a n d g e t s o m e . g i f
http://www.ak-47.net/legal/sear1.txt
(of course such perso n which sends or orders such item s h a s t o b e b a s e d o n a c o u n t r y w h e r e p o s s e s s i n g t h ese parts is legal,
otherwise he's insane ) http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif
J u s t a s k i n g b e c a u s e i n m y country possessing any gun part is le gal, unless it is a barrel, bolt or receiver, or other part with
sim ilar function(think about break action and bolt http://theforum .virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/sm ile.gif). Installing such parts
and making full-auto modifications is another story, but that's som ething I wouldn't do http://theforum.virtualave.n e t / u b b /
smilies/tongue.gif
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 14, 2001).]
<a href="http://practical.hyperm art.net/ase.html">Finnish ones</a> cost about $2000(they are the best ak's in the world but I
won't pay that m uch), and tha t's quite a m o n e y f o r a k a l a s h n i k o v .
They are also very advanced from the original ak-47 so I'm not sure if they could b e c o n v e r t e d i n e x a c t l y t h e s a m e m e a n s
than regular ak's http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/sm ilies/frown.gif
[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited July 16, 2001).]
T h e t i m e y o u h a v e t o wait to get a gun is not u sually a problem a n d i t d e p e n d s o n where you live and how lazy people you
h a p p e n t o m eet.
John Norrell sells them he is a class3 man. and the inventor of the norrell 10/22 trigger pack. (the 9,000 dollar ones)
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
++++++++++
just look on gunbroker.comor ftfindustries.com.both have drill jigs that you use as a temp late for the autosear hole.ftf has a
very fast shipping tim e and i have yet to hear the feds at m y do orstep.
Both have drill jigs that you can use as a tem plate for the autosear hole. FTF has a very fast shipp ing time and I have yet to
hear the feds at my doorstep.
O n e p o s t l o o ks like shit, the other doesn't. See the difference good gram m ar ma kes? Use it.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Turn som ething into a
.22 + answers
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The trickier part of making a survival .22 or a disguised .22 at hom e is the barrel and rifling. The stuff here gives solution and
answer for th o s e w h o a s k e d " W here ca n I find a .22 barrel" or "How do I put rifling in my .22 barrel"
A thin tube(25" or 32" in length) of chrome moly steel with internal dimension(.223) and rifling(1-16 twist or 1-20 twist) to fit a
.22 rim fire bullet.
W hy:
.22 Barrel liners are for converting bigger rifles into shooting .22s or re-boring worn out .22 barrels. O r people(you) want to turn
s o m ething into a .22 barrel without the works.
How:
First a barrel blank(aka "a ste el rod that is thick enough") is drilled to fit the liner. As the liner inserts into the drilled hole,
soldering compound or Acraglas is add ed to fill the gap between liner and original barrel. The Acraglas will glue them together
or hot solder do the job. Last, cut the new barrel precisely and a chamber ream ing job. Now you ha ve a .22 barrel.
The liner will stand pressure of a .22LR or anything less than that(no .22 Hornet or .223 R em, sorry!)
Brownells website
W W W .Brownells.com (http://W W W.Bro wnells.com)
It's quite a coincidence that this post added m y total post number to 222...
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > re-activating de-
activated weapons - Archive File
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skunkdude
New Mem ber
Posts: 30
From :
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-19-2001 05:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hat type of gun?
Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 05:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ' v e b e e n a s k i n g t h e s a m e question for about a year never get m uch of a respon se. You basically have to replace or drill do wn
the barrel an d install certain p arts like firing pins extractors etc.
king s p a z
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 347
From : U K
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for th e replies guys
i'm thinking it would need quite a bit o f work to fix it up again because they weld the barrel aswell as rem oving parts. i think it
c o u l d b e d o n e if you had like a diagram or plans for the gun because you could see whats m issing . does anybody know where
you could get such plans?
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 06:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there was som eone called antony micthell who reactivated mac10s and sold them to crim e g a n g s . b u t h e w a s a q u a l i f i e d
engineer who reactivated them by fitting a new barrel and breech block.
zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-19-2001 07:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also you have to take into account the fact that you will also have to be able to get am m o for this gun, which you m ost likely
won't if you live in the uk.
YTS
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 61
From :
R e g i s t e r e d : M A R 2001
posted 04-20-2001 05:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a m m o i s n t a p r o b l e m just buy inert am m o and it would it would be easy to make live the hard bit would be reactivating a de -
act ive got old spec de-acts and the least you would need is a decent lathe revolvers would be easier as you can sle e v e t h e m
to a lower calibre that would be quite simple?
zaibatsu
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Posts: 407
This is not registered version of Total HTML Converter
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-20-2001 05:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o m a k e i n ert am m o live? Sure you can use m atch he ad powder for the prim ers, but what about the
propellant? What are you going to use for that? You can't use BP in sem i-autos, I doubt it would cycle properally. However, you
could use it in a revolver. You could however make your own gun cotton, but how reliable do you think it would be? I'm a s k i n g
this because of a long-term project I'm dream ing up.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
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AR-15 Man
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Posts: 180
From :
Registered: OC T 2000
posted 04-20-2001 05:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you were in the US it would be so m uch easier to buy a STEN kit and get the receiver tem plates. It also d e p e n d s o n w h a t y o u
are wanting to reactivate.
jin
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 111
From : u k
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-20-2001 06:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you can get 9m m para blanks in the uk which contain sm o k e l e s s p o w d e r a n d a r e t h e s a m e c a l i b e r a s s o m e s u b m a c h i n e g u n s
and pistols.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-20-2001 09:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ' v e b e e n l o o k i n g a t s o m e 9m m b l a n k s a n d I s e e m t o h a v e a c h o i c e o f r e g u l a r s a n d A u t o . Are the auto's tapered for use in
automatic loading weapons? I'd also think they're filled with sm okeless powder so that they don't foul the mechanism if they're
i n t e n d e d f o r a u t o m atics.
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 04:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T h e b i g g e s t p r o b l e m I have had is finding prim er cups/anvils. W h e r e d o y o u g e t t h o s e m atches with the white tips from in the
UK ? I have never seen any.
Aggy
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 44
From :
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 09:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK you can buy primers, cases ,bullets and the m achine to put them together with out a license but you need a license
for the blackpowder.
Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 09:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you absoloutely sure about the prim ers etc ? It's an awful shame about needing a lice nce for black/sm okeless powder, but
I reckon buying prim ers would be great (just think of the fun you could have after extracting the LS/MF out of them ).
zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 12:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitter, are yo u serious? I guess you just want to know where to find the strike-anywhere m atches, for use in impro p rimers? All
the strike-an ywhere matches in the UK have red heads, ie: Swan Vestas, Cooks Matches, they are all strike anywhere m atches.
I'm pretty su re the white-tip m atches are just the same as the strike-anywhere m atches we have h ere. Just look for m atches
with a strip of glass paper on the side of the box and these will be the right ones.
------------------
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Bitter
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 290
From : 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W hat I was talking about were those m atches with a white tip. I thought the com mon pink strike-anywhere m atches were a
m ixture of the white 'igniter' p art m ixed with the red 'fuel' part, rather than them b e i n g s e p e r a t e . T h e s e s t r i k e - a n y w h e r e
m atches don 't seem to be anywhere near as sensitive as anyone claim s, so I assumed they were different...
zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, i know what you mean, but I'm positive it'd work, they ignite from being shot out of a pellet gun (ok, a little bit more
powerful than a ham mer) or you could use the toy caps from cap guns, just dissolve that in aceton e/whatever, and pput that in
the prim ers, i'm sure that they'd be pretty sensitive then. Maybe a little too sensitive thou gh. Check your m ail bitter.
zaibatsu
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 407
From : England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-21-2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, i know what you mean, but I'm positive it'd work, they ignite from being shot out of a pellet gun (ok, a little bit more
powerful than a ham mer) or you could use the toy caps from cap guns, just dissolve that in aceton e/whatever, and pput that in
the prim ers, i'm sure that they'd be pretty sensitive then. Maybe a little too sensitive thou gh. Check your m ail bitter.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > 12 Gague Flare gun
conversion? - Archive File
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PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From : s o m ewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 09:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hell no! those things are flim sy as hell and flares put out wuss p ressure, that wou l d e x p l o d e i n y o u r h a n d I u s e d t o h a v e o n e
a n d t h e t h i n g b r o k e o n m e, (after a couple of shots) yo u could theoreticly load a shell by cutting off the narrow tip of the flare
gun but all I'd shoot is a blank a weak one at that. plus flares dont get that hot for that long so you'd be e ndangering your
gun as it might m elt. plus how are you going to deal with the recoil?
if I was gonn a g e t a h a n d h e l d shotgun I'd get a revolver .410 like the one in three kings. I think it is called a thunder 5
Agent Blak
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 766
From : S k . C a n a d a
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 10:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not just fire flares. I bet you that shit would hurt plus you ca n get capsism ( O C ) r o u n d s f o r t h e m .
PYRO 500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From : s o m ewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-22-2001 10:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont think a flare would hurt someon e that bad unless it hit them in the face, they are just little light card b o a r d b a l l s a n d
they dont go that fast they'd probably bounce off of you. I'd con s i d e r b e a r b a n g e r s o r c a p s a c i s u m r o u n d s b u t I ' d g e t a h o m e
m ade wad shooting g un with a brass flare gun the wads travel around 400 fps witch is 100 fps faster than p a i n t b a l l g u n s a n d
pepper spray can backfire majorly
Mad Dog
New Mem ber
Posts: 32
From :
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-22-2001 11:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was hit by a flare once from 50-60m away, the only result was slight pain and a burn patch on m y jacket.
------------------
If you kill som e o n e a nd it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?
SofaKing
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Posts: 399
From : YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-23-2001 05:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I tend to ag ree with the others who have alrea dy poste d, you could saftly test fire the gun by going to a secluded
spot strapping the fla regun to a tree with a string attached to the trigger and get bethind a DIFFERENT tree and pull. I doubt
that that would accom plish m ore than a wasted flare gun but know you know.
------------------
W ith Knowledge we find Truth - With Truth we find Freedom
DaRkDwArF
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 258
From : Austra lia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-24-2001 06:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hm m m perhaps OC rounds are the best best, deal with a group instead of using flares on individuals.
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what about replacing the barrel?
would it be able to stand one of NBK's shotgun grenades?
[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited April 24, 2001).]
EP
Freq uent Poster
Posts: 108
From : U SA
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-27-2001 01:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yu can buy "bird bom bs" specially m ade for 12 gauge flare guns that are for scaring birds. They are basically an m 80 that
shoots from a flare gun. Im sure a flare gun would blow apart with a real shell.
www.guns2u.com sells an all-steel 12 ga flare gun as a self-defense pistol. If you can get one of those thru a friend in Europe,
m ore power to you.
A bloke with access to a m illing m achine could probably duplicate the plastic flare barrel in s t e e l , t h e n u s e h o t l o a d s .
Ergo nomics will suck. Better to m ake zip gun with 3/4" pipe, lumber.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > plans for .22? - Archive File
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PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 08:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the most silent ammo you can get is subsonic, download angelo's files, I think there is a 4 winds shotgun in there, just make a sleeve for the 22 bullet or a small 4 winds
shotgun , beware zip guns arent the safest things in the world to hold in your hands
Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 25, 2001 09:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the "Birdshots" are the one's i'm thinking of you will have a hard time killing a rabbit with them.
we had some and I was trying to shoot some crows with them. I must have been only 10m away and it wouldn't kill them..
BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 12:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22 bird shot sucks period.
They use such small shot, that they have no power beyond about 10 feet!
At about 15 feet... they wont even puncture an empty soda can. The only use i have seen for them... is for against snakes. From the range of your hand.. to your feet
(keeping in mind not to shoot your feet) they do a lot of damage. Thats about all they are good for. If you are mowing the lawn, or fishing, hiking, etc.. they are good for
snakes.
Any other uses however.... forget it.
------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.
burugle
A new voice
Posts: 2
From: oslo,norway
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 26, 2001 03:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't use the .22 birdshot... It won't penetrate unless you get really close. If possible use a silenced .22 rifle, if not ordineary .22 ammo don't make mutch noice, so noone will
take any notice. Or you could try setting some snares. Works great on rabbits, rodents, neighbours cats ect.
-Good Luck!
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 657
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 11:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, if you dont have any kids, I would recomend some non-explosive traps
But hey, shooting them is more fun, theres a few active topics about silencers.
richl261
Frequent Poster
Posts: 134
From: uk
Registered: MAR 2001
posted March 26, 2001 12:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
why not buy a .22 pistol? unless ure in england where every thing is illegal just buy an air gun to kill the rabbbits..
The_Coyote
A new voice
Posts: 18
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
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posted March 26, 2001 07:36 PM
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I can not buy them. I live in ontario where you can't get anything. Also I am 16 so I can not get one until I am 18. Also where I live no stores will sell them with out a shit load
of paper work... I don't know why though. It's a pellet gun for christ's sake!!!! And a .22 I can not get anywhere with all the licensing you have to go through, and you also
need to be 18. I might try my recurve or crossbow on them, but I can't aim worth shit.
------------------
Gun control is being able to hit your target.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 770
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 26, 2001 10:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you live in Canada the is a store called Canadian Tire they sell so not bad stuff you only have to be 18(get you buddy or brother).
SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 26, 2001 11:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you end up improvising, and don't need a long barrel, check out the automotive shop scrap bins. There are some "push rods" used in some V-8 (Chrysler???) that are 22 cal
in ID. Use caution.
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted March 27, 2001 12:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The push rods could be a good solution, provided they'll chamber a .22 cartridge. They're hardened, so the ball ends will have to be ground (not sawed) off. The interiors often
are encrusted with engine residues that can be quite tough to remove - try to find the cleanest ones and insure the bores are smooth before firing live rounds.
The strength should be more than okay. We used to use sections of auto antenna (brass and about .25 internal), and a .22 LR fit so loosely it had to be held in with scotch
tape. When these "weapons" were fired the shell case would expand to the larger diameter so tightly it would have to be hammered out using a ramrod. Accuracy was of
course nonexistent, but I never heard of any blowing up when properly constructed.
Very simple (disposable) guns can be made by taping the barrel(s) to a piece of wood and using a door "slidebolt" for the firing mechanism. A few heavy duty rubber bands
provide the "spring", and the bolt is drawn back and "cocked" in the slide notch. Just push the handle up out of the notch to fire. Multiple barrels are possible using this method,
provided they're aligned so the bolt hits a portion of all (firing is simultaneous). Not fancy, but effective and cheap.
[This message has been edited by c0deblue (edited March 27, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1478
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could buy a bang stick, I dont think they need a licence, then you solder a metal tube to the back of the part that screws onto the bullet, then to fire you slam hard on the
handle going through the tube withck you are holding. you might need to make a support for this though and they are wildly in accuarate
NightStalker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 116
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 27, 2001 03:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a quite nice improvised .22 gun.
It is made from a 6mm blank cartridge revolver using a 5,5mm steel pipe as barrel and a homemade silencer attached. It's not too accurate but it does the job.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Gun Plans - Archive File
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Thanks Will
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Homemade AR-7 type rifle
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Here is a picture of the parts I have currently aquired they are ontop of some of my schematics for the gun I'll scan them or take pictures of them soon.
HERE (ftp://ewf:sd332gf@209.195.155.80/Hosted%20Images/A-BOMB/Pcdv00054.JPG)
https://ww w.onlinemetals.com/check_order_status.cfm?id=49500&step= 2
Here is a pic of the blue print because my scanner just bit the dust (I cracked the glass plate) perminatly so heres a pic.
Well I got $18 dollars left on my prepayed credit card to use up any ideas, I borrowed the drill bits I'll need and the locking pins and cutoff w heels for my dremel tool. Oh that
reminds me I bought every thing w ith one of those new prepayed credit cards I got a CVS I think this thing is great you pay a $9 dollar one time fee and then can put any
amount from 20 to 500 on it. To recharge you just buy a recharge card for $4 and then put more money on it. Though you do have to call in and give them information on were
to send the card w ith you name/exp date/pin.
So anybody have any idea on what I could buy with it item+ shipping for $18 ?
It w as a bit of a hassle but hell its easies than sending a check, to recharge the card you just buy a recharge card for $4 and then add more money to the account, and there is
a $4 monthly service charge but aleast I'm not paying intrest anymore+ the monthly charge so I works for me for how little I use it.
Also, I have one of those pre-paid credit cards too.. They work w onders when your under 18:)
Lucky for you you hadn't gone forward to change the target!
Next time a newbie posts a stupid thread about how they want to make a homemade firearm, give them the link to this post so that they can see what .22LR can do to an
experienced member.
That should make them think twice about wanting to make a .308 or a .50BMG...
Nice idea.
A: Barrel
B: Trigger/trigger guard
C: Stock
D: Clip
E: Clip relese
F: Stock again
G: Buttplate relese
H: trigger group
I: Buttplate
J: Receiver/recoil and firing pin springs
K: Firing pin/extractor
L: Bolt
I got the idea for remaking it a bullpup from the fact that the stock is now gouged out were the receiver was before I would looke neater as a bullpup, So I'm going to put the
stock on my bandsaw and cut it in tw o then I will hollow out the sections of each side to acommindate the receiver and mechinisms
A: pin
B: Spring
C: Spring Follower
How does the P-90 magazine feed the last round? It doesn't seem like it would w ork with the follower you have drawn, as there are no more rounds to push it beyond the
mouth of the stack. Do you get rounds falling out when you take off a full mag? How do the two pins re-engage?
- U.S.M.C-Man
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > How to m a k e a
silencer?
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Am e r i c a O n l i n e s o u n d i n ' a d e a t h t o n e
Adm in's turned ya to stone before ya realised
(Guitar solo)
2 weeks in line
Passing the tim e
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Ya waited, to o b a d
Ya gotta a bullet in ya HED
:D
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > I need a receiver diagram!
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Irish, I think NBK was only doing that because they were advertising the other forum and their post was solely for that purpose. You should be OK posting a link for the purpose
of spreading information.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf
Before anyone starts an argument, I know that pistols and subs both fire the 9mm parabellum round but I have heard on this forum that 9mm pistol ammo will cause jams in
SMGs and I have also seen a handgun manufacturers website where there were specific safety instructions not to fire 9mm SMG ammo in that manufacturer's handguns.
The only way that I can think of for you to get 9mm SMG ammo in Australia is for you to buy once fired SMG brass from the military or someone else, then reload the ammo
yourself.
I know that to buy 9mm ammo you have to have a license with a 9mm weapon recorded on it but do you need this for buying 9mm reloading components? You would need a
license for buying the reloading components of course but I am not sure if you need a license with a 9mm recorded on it.
You could always buy a rifle chambered for any small pistol round so that you can buy primers and powder, buy once fired brass, and cast your own bullets.
So you should be alright with using 9mm pistol ammo in a sten then, especially if you were to shorten the barrel.
JDAM
If what you say is true about ammo without a license, you may be able to order your ammo online from somewhere else in the country.
I am willing to bet 10Kg of RDX that the recipient of the ammo would have ASIO, customs, and the local cuntstabulary bashing their door down in a matter of days.
Components you don't need a licence for, if you do reload go to a pistol range and get a bag of once fired 9mm shells (single flash hole only) they will cost next to nothing also
get a good reloading manuel don't improvise with powder loads til you know what you are doing as far as pressure goes.
You will be able to improvise everything exept for the powder measures (unless you weigh every load one at a time)
There is plenty of good reloading data available online at powder manufacturers websites. Go to www.adi-limited.com for loading data for ADI powders, which should be
available almost everywhere is Australia.
If you want to buy pistol ammo with an A or B license, just get a lever action cowboy rifle or a TC contender chambered for pistol calibres (you can have a contender with
multiple barrels chambered for multiple pistol calibres).
There is a form to apply for an FTP account that can be filled out on the main roge science page, but you have to have been a member for a while and proven your worth
before you will be granted access.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Needin m 79 blueprints!
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > eMachineShop
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You design it, it autom atically gives yo u a quote, you put in credit card info and it ships th e exact part you designed right to
your door. I think it is kind of expensive though. But yo u could concievably get a whole machine gun built this way. Like one of
Bill Bill holm es guns or you could use this for som e harder parts or whatever. You could probably easily get ar-15 m-16
receivers made this way. Just use the blueprints on biggerham m er.net
I was putting in the upper receiver of the .22 m achine p istol but i decided that would be pretty easy to do m y s e l f , b e c a u s e I
a m getting a m illing m a c h i n e s o o n . I t o o k p a r t o f a m a c h i n e s h o p c l a s s a t t h e l o c a l c o m m unity college. I a m t a k i n g a n
Autodesk Inventor 6(which I h ave a copy of) co urse next week. On inventor you can actually set mechanical assem blies in
m otion to test them out virtually and design in 3D.
ninja.
Parts for a biological agent disperser? Nozzles for HV rockets? There's always som ething. :)
However, the prices! $450 was about as low as I could g et for a sim ple steel "barrel" m achined from c h e a p m i l d s t e e l b a r , a n d
turned down. It wasn't even funny. It was a large bore, and a short length (10cm ), so would have taken anyone with a lathe
five minutes to bore and then another ten to polish. I g ave up at that point. I didn't waste m y tim e trying to see if there was a
way to rifle the barrel. U nless it is going to be a m ajor investm ent, it seem s that the costs for a on e-off are too high, and the
set-up charges are quite vast.
usually the m achine shop types at least in m y area are all gun owner, hunting types. I took part of a m achine shop class at
the local com munity college and all of them were wearing cam o p a n t s a n d f r o m out in the country.
For the prices eMachine charge, I kid you not, you could buy a sm all lathe and use it for two parts. You would have saved a
little m oney, and still have a good little lathe.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > My expedient smg
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On the other hand i thought of making cases from metal/brass rod in lathe.
MMIV,
1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above.
2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW.
Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can
afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)
MMIV,
1. Bill Holmes has a .22lr book that can be found on the ftp or at the 1st link above.
2. wont say that making your own cases is a bad idea,but.... it is TMW.
Too Much Work..... Your looking at CNC type tolerances that you'll have to keep too. If you can afford CNC machinery, you can
afford 9mm brass.....(licensed or not)
Bill Homes weapons are very very difficult to make (you need a milling machine, a lathe, a lot of patient and time)
P.A luty guns are really expedient guns.
I live in spain (here it's ilegal buy or sell weapons or ammo) but i bought some army bullets (friends or firends of firneds ;)
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arroun $6 50 box )
yes there is but you would need to do modifications to the mag,spring and the the upper and lower receiver so they feed
correctly. Which this is no probelms and this modification will make the smg more useful intead of being a paper weight.
I agree with rounds being hard to get in Oz but they are about if you look. The problem with building Luty's weapon in .22
would be eliminating hang-ups with the .22LR case during feeding. Bill Holmes claims to have eliminated this with his bolt
design, but then you are getting right away from Luty's concept for a truly homemade smg and starting to add lathe and
milling proceedures to the project.
This shouldn't arouse suspision because there are leaver action rifles which fire .357 magnum / .38 special ammo.
If you have a cat A, or no licence, consider yourself stuffed, or if you're not a prohibited person, go and get a cat B licence.
Then you can buy as much ammo as you want, just tell them your going on a long hunting trip up north and need to stock up.
To add to the problem of trying to make P.A. Luttys desing into .22 rimfire, you would have to use a different (lighter) spring
and breech block.
The 7.62 X 54R is rimmed and was employed by the Ruskies in FA applications for quite some time, IIRC. If not FA, then
definitely semi-auto, but not much difference when bump firing, something which has been done with rimmed rounds very
often.
Care still needed to be taken when loading these to ensure the rim of the top round was not behind that of the cartridge
beneath it or a jam would be inevitable.
Making your own mags could be troublesome to the DIYer, but not out of the question entirely. A much tighter radius would be
needed for the mag, I think, giving it more of a 'banana' look in design. I'm seeing that the Ruger 10-22 FA conversion has
been working well for many for a long time, and while it employs a funky rotary wheel at the top of the magazine it can easily
be found in hicap models. Seems possible, at least.
Joining of two or more magazines to increase ammo capacity via MIG or TIG welding is something that has often been
accomplished in the past, too. Smooth insides and much longer custom spring are a must, but the original follower can be
used. [EDIT: No longer speaking of Ruger 10-22 mags here... They're made of plastic. Many others arent, though.
My whole point is that .22LR FA or other rimmed round FA is very do-able, you just need to think outside the box a little bit
and not need to rely on following Mr. Luty's designs exactly. Modification and experimentation are devine... neccesity is the
mother of invention, ect, ect... You can see examples of invention overcoming caliber obstacles in these three links (though
sadly no examples of rimmed rounds):
1 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13385&highlight=9mm), 2 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/
showthread.php?t=13861), 3 (http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14401)]
The Bren .303 Mark IV Light Machine Gun uses .303. British rimed ammo, but I dont know how the ammo sits in the mag.
(I'm assuming its stacked).
They also use 100 round drum. This could be another option.
Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to
see & hear of your progress if any was made.
Is xload still a member here, and if so have you actually made any progress on your so called gun build up, would be nice to
see & hear of your progress if any was made.
I'm occassionally in contact with him. He completed his SMG even reactivated a deactivated catme (sp?) machine gun. However
AFAIK he is in the school busy. HTH.
Well that sucks for us here. Would have been nice to hear from him or anyone else about the details involved in building this
gun, see some test fires/pictures and find out other information he would have to offer us here at the forums.
Since your in Oz you can pick up 25 round butler creek clear plastic mags with steel lips from Cleaver Fire-arms at margate in
qld for $60. They are for the 10/22 ruger.
I mail ordered a couple and built a project to find that they are cheap as chips and feed .22lr cleanly into a blowback operated
thingo....
I did find however that I had to move my ejector a little closer then in the plans I had seen to ensure propper ejection, but
this could be because of the ejection port, placement of mag well, stroke of bolt or any other varying factor in my hand tool
skills.
Yes it's CETME. He even sent me pictures, however I cannot dig out the picture from these several file stashes.
He actually deviated from the Luty's design and purchased a blank barrel and have it chambered by one of his friends and
install it on the SMG.
Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?
But when building a project like this, if you have access to purchase a barrel with rifling (which is fairly easy & cheap in most
countries) or have the means to make your own barrel why not build the project to the best of your abilities, and improve upon
the gun where it can be improved upon. The gun will be that much better.
Do you know if you need a cat "c" licence to buy these mags, since the are semi-auto.? Or NO licence at all?
As they aren't considered a part you need no liscence at all, nor will they ask for one. They also fit onto lever action rugers
that are cat (a) anyway. BTW it would take a cat (c) semi auto rimfire to a cat (d) because of the capacity
You will get them without any paper work, just give them a call and ask them what they would like for postage.
Call: (07) 3883 1733 and tell them you are afer a butler creek clear 25 round 10/22 mag and they will know what your on
about.
Also Sterling M20 magazines work great on rocker, and if you had a Gevarm (befor you handed it in) they worked great on the
select conversion.
First of all:
Category A weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category A weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable—
(a) a miniature cannon under 120cm in barrel length that is
a black powder and muzzle loading cannon, depicting a
scale model of an historical artillery piece or naval gun;
(b) an air rifle;
(c) a blank-fire firearm at least 75cm in length;
(d) a rimfire rifle (other than a self-loading rimfire rifle);
(e) a single or double barrel shotgun;
(f) a powerhead.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category A weapon.
(3) In this section—
conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is
capable of being used for converting a category A weapon
that is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.
Category B weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category B weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable—
(a) a muzzle-loading firearm;
(b) a single shot centre fire rifle;
(c) a double barrel centre fire rifle;
(d) a repeating centre fire rifle;
(e) a break action shotgun and rifle combination.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category B weapon.
(3) In this section—
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conversion unit means a unit or device or barrel that is
capable of being used for converting a category B weapon that
is a firearm from one calibre to another calibre.
Category C weapons
Each of the following is a category C weapon if it has not
been rendered permanently inoperable—
(a) a semiautomatic rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity
no greater than 10 rounds;
(b) a semiautomatic shotgun with a magazine capacity no
greater than 5 rounds;
(c) a pump action shotgun with a magazine capacity no
greater than 5 rounds.
Category D weapons
(1) Each of the following is a category D weapon—
(a) a self-loading centre fire rifle designed or adapted for
military purposes or a firearm that substantially
duplicates a rifle of that type in design, function or
appearance;
(b) a non-military style self-loading centre fire rifle with
either an integral or detachable magazine;
(c) a self-loading shotgun with either an integral or
detachable magazine with a capacity of more than 5
rounds and a pump action shotgun with a capacity of
more than 5 rounds;
(d) a self-loading rimfire rifle with a magazine capacity of
more than 10 rounds.
(2) Subsection (1) applies to a weapon mentioned in the
subsection even if the weapon is permanently inoperable.
Category E weapons
A bulletproof vest or protective body vest or body armour designed to
prevent the penetration of small arms projectiles is a category E weapon.
Category H weapons
(1) A firearm, including an air pistol and a blank-fire firearm, under
75 cm in length, other than a powerhead, is a category H weapon, regardless
of whether it has been rendered permanently inoperable.
(2) A conversion unit is also a category H weapon.
(3) This section does not apply to a powerhead or category C, D or
R weapon.
(4) In this section—
“conversion unit” means a unit or device or barrel that is capable of being
used for converting a category H weapon that is a firearm from one
calibre to another calibre.
Category M weapons
Each of the following is a category M weapon—
(a) any clothing, apparel, accessory or article designed to disguise any
weapon or other cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing
bodily harm;
(b) any of the following that is primarily designed for the control of
native or feral animals—
(i) an antipersonnel gas of a corrosive, noxious or irritant nature
or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any weapon
capable of discharging the gas by any means;
(ii) an antipersonnel substance of a corrosive, noxious or irritant
nature or that is capable of causing bodily harm and any
weapon capable of discharging the substance by any means;
(c) any knife so designed or constructed so as to be used as a weapon
that while the knife is held in 1 hand, the blade may be released by
that hand;
(d) any clothing, apparel, adornment or accessory designed for use as
a weapon or a cutting or piercing instrument capable of causing
bodily harm;
(e) any incendiary or inflammable device containing any substance
capable of causing bodily harm or damage to property that is
primarily designed for vegetation management;
(f) any pistol crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of
1 hand (that is not a toy pistol crossbow) that when discharged is
capable of causing damage or injury to property or capable of
causing bodily harm;
(g) any crossbow designed to be discharged by the use of 2 hands
that, when discharged, is capable of causing damage or injury to
property or capable of causing bodily harm;
(h) a chinese throwing iron that is a hard non-flexible plate having
3 or more radiating points with 1 or more sharp edges in the shape
of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or geometric shape and
constructed or designed to be thrown as a weapon;
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(i) a flail or similar device constructed and designed as a weapon
consisting of in part a striking head and which, if used offensively
against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm;
(j) a device known as a ‘manrikiguisari’ or ‘kusari’, consisting of a
length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a
geometrically shaped weight or handgrip and constructed or
designed for use as a weapon;
(k) a device known as a knuckleduster or any device made or
adapted for use as a knuckleduster and which, if used offensively
against a person, is capable of causing bodily harm;
(l) a weighted glove designed or constructed to be used as a weapon;
(m) a mace or any similar article (other than a ceremonial mace made
for and used solely as a symbol of authority on ceremonial
occasions);
(n) any device, not a toy, constructed or designed as a telescopic
baton, the extension of which is actuated by the operation of a
mechanical trigger.
Category R weapons
Each of the following is a category R weapon—
(a) a machine gun or submachine gun that is fully automatic in its
operation and actuated by energy developed when it is being fired
or has multiple revolving barrels, and any replica or facsimile of a
machine gun or submachine gun that is not a toy;
(b) a unit or device that is capable of being used for converting any
firearm to a weapon mentioned in paragraph (a);
(c) a firearm capable of firing 50 calibre BMG cartridge ammunition;
(d) an antipersonnel gas, and an antipersonnel substance, of a
corrosive, noxious or irritant nature or that is capable of causing
bodily harm, and any weapon capable of discharging the gas or
substance by any means, other than a gas or substance and any
weapon capable of discharging the gas or substance that is
primarily designed for the control of native or feral animals;
(e) an acoustical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of
causing bodily harm;
(f) an electrical antipersonnel device of an intensity that is capable of
causing bodily harm;
(g) a hand grenade, other than an inert hand grenade, and an
antipersonnel mine;
Second of all;
• Step 1.
You will need a genuine reason to obtain a Category A & B Firearms Licence. If you become a Member of S.S.A.A. you can
then list your genuine reason as Sports & Target Shooting and Recreation & Hunting, as we are an approved body
prescribed under the law. Anyone who is already a member can help you or contact your local S.S.A.A. Branch.
• Step 2.
Contact your nearest S.S.A.A. Branch Safety Course Instructor, and book in for a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Course.
(The State Office can also assist you to contact a S.S.A.A. Safety Course Instructor in your area.)
All S.S.A.A. (QLD) Inc. Instructors have attained the Certificate 4 in Workplace Training and Assessment.
As it takes time for your Membership Card to arrive, and you need proof of Membership of an Association to apply for a
license, we suggest you Join Now.
• Step 3.
When you have completed your Safety Course we will post to you a 'Statement of Attainment' this is your proof that you have
successfully completed the Safety Course. A copy of this will be needed when you apply for your licence. While you are waiting
for this to arrive go to your nearest photo shop and have 2 passport size photos taken, as these will have to be supplied with
your application.
• Step 4.
When you have everything you need go to the Police Station nearest you and ask for an 'Application for a License' Form 1 and
a 'Proof of Identity' Form 30, or download them from the Queensland Police Service Website. Fill these in and pay the fees,
the police station will then send them to Weapons Licensing Branch where they will be processed. Have patience, as they will
only be processed after 28 days.
• Step 5.
When your licence arrives, you can then decide which firearm best suits your needs. Different types (we call them Disciplines)
of shooting require different types of firearms, so try all the Disciplines that your Branch has, then decide on the firearm you
want - don't make a hasty decision. When you have decided what you need, visit or call Your Gun Shop.
• Step 1.
Obtaining a handgun licence is different to the steps you need to get a rifle licence. Just being a member of S.S.A.A. is not
enough, you need to be a member of a 'Pistol Section' of a S.S.A.A. Branch, or an 'Approved Club', most S.S.A.A. Branches
have a pistol section. To join this 'Approved Club' you have to go to the Police Station and ask for a 'Pre Approval' application
form, Form Q515. You fill this in and lodge it at the Police Station. Weapons Licensing Branch will process the form and send
you back a letter authorising you to join a Club.
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• Step 2.
When the letter comes back, you can then join the Pistol Section of a Branch. The Branch will advise you on what is required to
join. You are now on probation for 6 months. During that time you have to attend a minimum of 3 Branch Competition Shoots,
these shoots will be recorded on your Participation Record Card that the Branch will issue you when you join. At any time within
the 6 months you can do a 30195QLD Weapons Act Safety Pistol Course, then when your 6 months are up you can apply for
your licence.
• Step 3.
After you have sent your application form in, it will be processed after 28 days. So have patience.
• Step 4.
Enjoy your sport.
Cat R notes:
1 There is nothing about flash hiders
2 Nothing of electro-mechanical weapons or motorised/hand cranked machine guns.
I have experimented with a trigger mechanism one of Luty's designs. If I get time I'll upload a picture.
.22LR's are a good idea because 525 rounds of Federal are Au$25-30.
@ Neo
Neo I'd think it would be a bit risky buying a mag. And do they have a web site or email?
WOW! I think that list just shouts out to me, "get the heck OUT of this country!"
Move somewhere that the gov't allows you at least a pointy stick to defend yourself.
RPI (Remote primary industries): Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, fully automatic rifles/submachine guns with magazine
capacity no greater than 30, arms chambered for .50 BMG, .55 BOYS or 10.5 Soviet
and that is Queensland standard - there is no restricions on body armour, and even inert grenades/bazookas and crap like
that are strictly illegal.
Does this mean what it implies...that there are NO restrictions on body armour, meaning that anyone can own it?
Or did you mean to say that there are no restrictions on body armour because it's in the same class as inert grenades (which
are strictly illegal), thus unownable by anyone?
It was my understanding that you needed to hold some sort of firearms license to own one. Is this correct or is it just a very
common misconception?
As to paintball guns I'm not quite sure, especially when you require a cat A licence for a airsoft rifle, keep in mind that it has
to be a bolt action sniper only.
And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about
lever action? Hmm...
A bikey gang on the Gold Coast had full auto Glock 18 (model?), Uzi's, and M72 LAW's.
And if you want a fifty cal - .510 DTC Europ, if the cops let you have one.
What lame is that our next door neighbour, New Zealand is lucky they can have semi auto military style rifles, snipers, and
also gun turrets of warships. Although I'm not sure how hard it is to obtain a licence.
As for body armor - a standard kevlar-ceramic vest is available for anyone who can prove thier job involves a risk of high
speed projectiles of any kind - I could buy one with a rural firefighters ticket.
And lastly - my dad had two inert grenades confiscated at the range when the police members showed up.
++++++++++
I added the punctuation marks to the end of your sentences for you. You know, the . ! ? marks that show that you are done
with a sentence?
NBK
Yes, usually - if not most of the time .50 cal means .50BMG.
About those mags, does anyone know of any rifles/models that would use/fit one.
If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG
and a rifle.
If I were to purchase a couple of blank .22LR (and 9mm) rifle barrels, can any one suggest length, twist, grade etc. for a SMG
and a rifle.
If you want barrels then go to Margate and see tony cleaver at cleaver firearms.
If your after magazines then go to shooters warehouse in ashmore (gold coast) and anyone there can help you.
If your on the coast, you can pick up level II vests, cash no questions asked if you know where, and who to ask.
Pm me
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On a side note Mr Metral in his book "Do-It-Yourself Submachine Gun" suggests two groove rifling is sufficient accuracy for a
sub-machine gun. Early big game rifles used two grooves with a belted bullet and were deemed accurate enough for that kind
of dangerous work.
And another reason why Cat C is ridiculous; pump action shotguns are the same class as semi auto shotguns. But what about
lever action? Hmm...
In answer to your questions, BOTH are cat A!:D
It has already been scanned, along with all his other books that went for sale.
http://rapidshare.com/files/22780652/Wpnarch3LUTY.rar.html
I hope you enjoy them. I have other ebooks as well, including Holmes' books, but I'll upload those later because my hard
drive is a bit disorganized atm...
I love the people who post this stuff on U-tube. I call it "Thank you for sharing your felony". particularly those whiz kids who
show their faces.
To spell it out very clearly, a drawing is different than a picture of a metallic item. A picture of some crystalline substance is
different than a explosion and your car or whatever in the background. A mathematical model is different than a blown up
mailbox, etc, etc. We are talking about self preservation. I'm not getting on anyone's back, so don't get all defensive - just
treat the last two posts like you would signs at a shooting range.
If you think about it, this forum is on the edge of censorship and has already been attacked by iDefense to the extent of
loosing it's ISP. Please use common sense. :rolleyes:
I understand that the longer one participates in these discussions, the more "comfortable" one gets in the general discussion.
But every once in awhile pretend that you are talking through a bullhorn to the public on the street. :eek:
That polish guy Focusofdarkness on youtube has removed every one of his vids. I think that's better for him, but worse for us
since his design was a perfect open bolt SMG. He even showed how he made his munitions by using a hilti nail gun cartridge...
:cool:
btw, in some countries there's no problem in building your own firearms. MOST countries are so afraid of armed civilians they
ban everything resembling a gun just to give the IMPRESSION of safety on the streets. I capitalize that word because criminals
aren't bound by law so they can't be disarmed...
I know that in my country I can't even buy an Airsoft, wich didn't stop me from having an airsoft resembling a M4 carbine :D
Even worse, I bought it in America and went on a flight back home with the thing in my backpack... :eek:
As regards legality, if I was a cop and looking for an easy bust, I'd go for the Youtuber's showing their faces, and get Youtube!
to give me the IP and get the ISP to give me the user. No warrant needed either. :)
Doesn't matter if there's ever a conviction. Simply arresting them and letting them go through the hell of the court system is
almost certain to get a guilty plea, rather than risk the absurd sentences a 'bomb' charge would get them, after showing the
video 'this dangerous psychopath made to glorify himself on the Internet' to the jury. :p
Because I live in the Netherlands and I'm not allowed to build my own guns or own them.
The only legal way would be for me to obtain a gun smithing license, which would cost me 5 years in education. And then I
would have to be hired by someone already manufacturing them since my government has chosen not to expand it's gun
production ability (which means they won't give you a license for starting your own gun company)...
You can recover YouTube movies from your browser cache. Simply rename them as .flv files and you can open them with any
video player that supports FLV files.
If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.
Use a downloader to get the SWF file. Rename from .SWF to .TXT. Open it, search for '.flv', and copy the filepath into your
browser after the top-level name of the site where the video is located. Voila! :)
"I was able to build the gun in about 60 hours with only some basic hand tools, and the only power tool was a handheld drill. A
drill press and angle grinder would make it easier and go faster but at the time I did not have such things. Many parts
described in the book I could not find anywhere. Parts that I could not find include the wag well, 3 inch roll pin, barrel, barrel
sleeve, steel collars of the right size. I have worked out many of the problems and this page should help you on your build."
"For the barrel I used a pre-owned UZI barrel purchased from www.auctionarms.com for half the price of a chamber reamer.
This barrel is 10 inches lo ng, one inch lo nger tha n the tube called for in the bo ok but d on t cut it shorter. The barrel co m e s
chambered and rifled making it more accurate and is a huge time saver. It needs a sleeve to fit into the steel collars. The
sleeve has the dimensions of 0.75" x 0.035" x 0.68" and will slide onto the UZI barrel with ease but not sloppy. It is a tap
tight fit into the 3/4 inch collars. The set screws on the collars hold it in place against the barrel."
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"Close up of sleeve on barrel in collars. I could not find collars with the right outer diameter, only ones with a smaller 1.25 OD.
These will not fit into the upper receiver. To fix the problem buy a 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" tube and cut it up and put it over
the collars to get the right size. It might be a little too large and need to be filed down where it makes contact with the upper
receiver to fit in."
"For the breech block I used 0.625" x 0.12" x 0.39" and 0.75" x 0.065" x 0.62 tubes for the center of it. The inside tube is too
large and needs to be filed down all around to slide inside the larger one. JB weld is used to secure them together along with
the tight fit. Over this goes the steel collars and over those go the 1.375" x 0.065" x 1.25" slices also held on strong by JB
weld."
"I could not find the 3 inch roll pin called for in the book. I used a 0.5" x 0.095" x 0.31" tube cut with 2 hacksaw blades on
one saw and opened up with files to cut the slot for the ejector. In the center went a round steel rod held in with JB weld and
two roll pins."
"The Firing pin is part of a drill bit shank; it was too long at first and was ground down and at an angle to keep from getting
caught on the end of the cartridge. It too is glued in with JB weld."
"At the end of the upper receiver is the recoil shield and guide rod. The guide rod is made from a thick metal coat hanger
stuck into a steel round with that inside of a collar and that collar inside of the large collar used in the rest of the weapon. This
is JB welded together. The end cover is made from scrap left over from making the lower receiver."
"Trigger is cut and filed from scrap left over from lower receiver."
"Sear is made the same as it is in the book, but mine would bind on the side of the upper receiver to fix this I used some
nuts to keep it strait."
"The Magazine is made from a tube that is about the size of the magazine well described in the book and is a tight fit into the
lower receiver. The lips were bent in a vise and tapped with a hammer."
"Lips let cartridge protrude enough to allow breach block to catch it."
"I finished the lower receiver with the oil and torch method from the book, it works very well, wipe down the parts that can rust
with oil. Many of the parts are made with stainless steel or aluminum, these parts I painted with a semi flat black spray paint.
If your breach b lock doe sn t line up quite right with yo ur chambe r file the parts of th e block that mak e contact with the receiver
walls to point it in the right direction. Silicone spray does a fantastic job of making the breach block and magazine operate
smoothly if you are having friction problems."
"I enjoyed building this weapon, though at times it was frustrating and time consuming. It will go faster and your results will be
better if you have better tools, drill press, grinders, welder, and of course some skill with the tools. Don't be discouraged if
your parts don't look as nice as the ones in the book, isn't easy to shape everything just right but if you make everything line
up on yours it should work. I have only fired one shot from this, and it worked. At some point I will be able to do a full test fire
and will update this site when that happens. I expect to be able to do that this summer."
If one wants to make a real one that would be legal in most parts of the world one could just make it fire 8mm or 9mmPA
blanks. Also, if the barrel is plugged and ported it would not fire anything. Around here one can buy blank firing replicas and
ammo for them without license. But theres a catch, the barrel must be plugged and the gases from the blanks have to be
vented in some other direction then to the front of the gun. One thing that could hinder American builders is the (or so I'm led
to belive) that BATF considers the reciver to be the gun, so even if the gun only fires blanks and the barrel is plugged it is
considered a fully automatic short barreled carbine/smg. If you drill or some other way take the cap of the barrel it is
considered as manufacture of illeagal weapon, after that the gun is from legal point of view the same with any normal weapon
loaded with blanks. As long as the cap stays in the barrel the gun is considered to bee something similar to a childs capgun.
One of the technical problems in building the luty smg to fire 8mm blanks is the fact that the blanks don't feed well even in
their real counterparts, give that you would use a weapon that allready has problems potential with feeding (luty smg). The
blanks feed reasonably well from a pistol magazine, but from a curved or rectangular smg magazine they don't feed well. It is
said that the blanks ressemble the wadcutter rounds in their feeding.
Also in Lutys book "Improvised HANDGUN ammunition" he uses 8mm blansk for primers in proces of making the ammo, so if
you make a live fire and need to improvise the ammunition one could already have the blanks.
8mm blanks:
http://dekoase.com/page/pics/8mmpamf.jpg
I used to reload ammo, using a reloading press to resize the used cartridges to their original size. I don't know how well this
works on brass tubing, but if it is able to resize it, this is the ideal solution.
I haven't tried this before, so I'm just making suggestions. I wonder if anyone has already tried this...
If somebody still has them, please upload them to rapidshare and/or the FTP so we can still benefit from them.
Hey, use Cache View to find it in your cache, it makes Firefox cache file extraction 100 times easier, and assuming you don't
have it wiped everyitme you close your browser, it may still be there.
http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~timj/cv/
http://rapidshare.com/files/87122667/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_1.flv.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/87123195/YouTube_-_Homemade_gun_part_4_8mm_ammo.flv.html
This reminds me of my idea about making a simple reloading press and necking 8mm or 9mm blanks down to .22 or .177 so
that i could use air rifle barrels.
Basic construction of a improvised pistol that necks 9mm blanks down to .177:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O3OVDSycsx8
The maker shooting his creation, at the start you can see him inserting a .177 pellet in to the tip of the blank:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kbj4UPBrV64
One type of modification would be that you take normal blank firing revolver, cut the barrel and weld that 5.5mm air rifle
barrel,
or drill through/remove the barrel and insert air rifle barrel (or some barrel to fire normal ammo even, thats one possible
modification for blank fireing revolvers to become useful)
But, beside that, I think that posts about modified blank firing ammo, or ramset "ammo" dont belong to this homemade SMG
thread, and should be moved to Rameset or some similar or
maybe even new thread for improvised firearm ammo only (this is not a bad idea).
Neetje, what are you fixing for .32, what you have in mind ?
- Luty uses shaft lock collars (bolt and barrel). I can't seem to find them, so I'll drill a hole in a aluminum block, fit in my
barrel and maybe file it a bit for ease of feeding. This block will be fitted in a U-profile tube.
- No guidance rod. My bolt will be a steel rod, drilled out in front. In this hole I will fit my firing pin. Using 2 pins I wil let the
bolt slide.
- No barrel rifling. I don't have a lathe, rifling machine or whatever you need to make these. Where I live you can only order a
gun barrel if you own a gun, so this is not an option for me. I have bought a 14x3mm seamless tube, which I will use as a
barrel.
I will be using hilti cartridges (.27 short or long, whatever suits me best) as primer and propellant for my 8mm bullet (.32 acp
can be a possibility, using .27 short). :cool:
The gun itself will be made mostly from aluminum tubing and aluminum blocks, except for the bolt, sear and, of course, the
barrel. These parts need to be strong, because they will get heavy blows and lots of pressure.
Second, try to find as more "genuine" parts from Lutys design, like collars, and pipe sizes.
I was fucking amazed when I found some company who had in their catalogue all sizes that I need, it even had 3 sizes I can
choose for barrel and barrel sleeve, and all would do the job
(that werent Luty sizes like 15.88, but "round" sizes in mm like 18 x 4.5mm, which would be maybe even better than his
sizes)
I was particulary happy with that barrel size, since it is pretty heavy, and with sleeve probably wouldnt make problems like
exploading.
Other "alternate" barrel sizes were 16x3.5mm and 15x3mm.
The last size is maybe not the best option, since in that case barrel sleeve would have bigger walls than barrel itself.
But to my great dissapointment, when I called and asked about it, I found out that they have none of my needs !
(why they promote it in a catalogue, I dont know, bastards)
I was so pissed, but Its like that in life, if you want something, you will never get it easy way ( and tubing sizes listed in that
catalogue were way too easy!)
I continue my search, and thus, modifications of tube sizes, primary needed by tubes available.
Same suggestions to you, dont try to find exact tubes, find some that will be near his sizes, and could be easy assembled and
put together inside one another.
The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine.
Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel.
Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.
For 9mm Luger caliber,magazine size of 35x15x2 mm is the best possible option, since in this rounds will fit nicely.
Sizes like 35x20 or bigger could maybe be good ( then magazine would be more like two stacked), but that needs more
tubing size adjustment in magazine well and so.
Making your own parts like collars out of aluminum block is good idea, or that could be made from steel block with height of
14-20 mm.Of course it should be very precise, so it could fit in tube, and barrels could fit in it.
But now back to the subject when I get some more money I'l get some materials from the hardware store for the luty smg and
a shotgun project. My time and motivation are not unlimited and I also do have to concentrate on my studies.
Mate, I can't get it legally. The trick to making your own firearms is using whatever you have, or are able to get.
I can buy all the tubes, no problem, the ammo I can't. So I'll have to improvise that too. It's no problem for me to buy the
nail gun blanks, so it's a good alternative. I've already tested the blanks I'm going to use, they are more powerful than a
.22lr.
The most important parts of construction are shaft lock collars and magazine.
Shaft lock collar outside diameter determines size of tube, and inside diameter determines size of barrel sleeve and barrel.
Magazine determines size of magazine well and size of lower tube.
I don't agree with the shaft lock collars. He uses this to fasten his barrel, give the bolt the needed weight and to make the
recoil shield. These can all be replaced with other things. The barrel can be fastened using an aluminum block with a hole in it,
the recoil shield can be made the same way and the bolt can be made heavy with a steel rod and round tubing in which this
rod will fit.
It's just like Luty says in all his books, this is an example of building your own improvised smg with a limited amount of tools.
His designs are not the only way of making a smg.
As for the magazine, I'm playing with the idea of making up a Sten - type mag, the construction method of which is described
nicely by Bill Holmes in his SMG book. The reason for this is that I'm struggling to find the correct tube type once more, and
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seeing as I'm probably going to have to modify the project already, I might as well carry on. I do not want to make too many
changes though, as I'm afraid that this will complicate the project unneccessarily. But, as neetje said above, There are ways
and reasons to modify the original Luty design.
This thread would be a fantastic topic or repository for ideas relating to help or modifications to the basic Luty design. All
purely theoretical of course.......
Kaiserbill you should search, and, just like I said, modify the plans to fit things you could found.
Too many changes arent bad, if everything works as planned, at the end.
That sten type mag, in which book from Bill Holmes is that mentioned, and could you describe it shortly ?
This topic will hopefully one day be place you can read about real Luty SMG somebody made, not just theoretical masturbation
around his books.If my memory serves me well, something like that is said on mainpage, here we want real knowledge, not
hypothetical geek shit.
Some more pics of somebody trying to make .380 SMG, this is everything I found:
No additional pics, no more info about materials, procedure etc.
http://i32.tinypic.com/116n8yh.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/3310eac.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/246kqit.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/2qm15ya.jpg
I indeed know people who can buy me some 9mm ammo. But if they (or me) get caught, they lose their licenses, and I hate
to have that on me. If I (for self-defense or whatever) decide to use the gun against someone, they will be guilty too.
However, I have a reasonable amount of time, about enough tubing to build 8 smgs, and I like working in my garage. When I
started thinking about building this gun I was already thinking of trail and error, and spending a reasonable amount of time in
fine tuning the gun. :rolleyes:
The blanks are nowhere near 9mm ammo ballistics, so if I use spring, bolt etc from luty's design and just downgrade the
spring strength and bolt weight in steps, I will get it to work ;)
Anyways, this will be my project for the next couple of weeks. When it's finished, I'll make a couple of pics/vids so everybody
can see.
btw, the pics: Nice lower receiver, but I wonder where the rest of the gun is :D
I'm going away for the week-end, but I'll give a description of the sten type mag when I return on Monday. I have most of
Luty's books as well as a couple from Bill Holmes. My original intention was to build the basic Luty design quite closely. Then
move through his designs: For example 9mm MP Mk1, Mk2, and 9mm BSP, with design improvements progressively built in.
I'd like to end off with the Holmes 9mm MP, but we are talking a timeline over a few years. My family and work commitments
ensure this.
I also started making my boltaction pistol, whem I get more done I'll make a separate thread for it. I'll also try to write up
some plans for the pistol.
I made some basic drawings on my laptop before starting the project, unfortunately it is a very old laptop, it does not have a
usb or netconnection.
So I can only show you a picture of the pipe thats going to be the reciver.
Pic (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view¤t=IMG_5398.jpg)
Oh also one thing, the pipes cost me 8,57eur and I cut them to length with the shops bandsaw.
Who wrote it (Gerard Metral?) and even better, it looks that you have it. So could you upload it if it's a e-book or scan it if it is
a traditional book. It would greatly help people understand you if they saw the same than you.
Compared to Uzi and stuff like that means nothing if you cant made it at home.
It's been floating around on P2P networks and I remember even seeing it on FTP.
My scanner bit the "Big Red One":mad: a couple of days ago. As soon as I get a new one. I'll be more than happy to scan
and upload for the forum...
http://rapidshare.com/files/97648225/diy_SUB.rar.html
8.1mb
pass. roguesci.org
No problem. If you ever come across some of those Gingery books, on my list in the request section, I would appreciate your
letting me know.
I think RapidShit does that just to infuriate:mad: you enough to buy a Premium account.
Conversely, Holmes & Metral's weapons are of a more complicated design, costlier, not as quick to produce and require some
machine tools and knowledge to manufacture. However they do make use of off the shelf mags: The Metral and both of
Holmes 9mm Sub-guns use Sten mags while Holmes .22 machine pistol uses a universal mag for the Thompson .22 guns.
Using basic machine tools equipped with a DRO or better yet CNC capability, a high degree of repeatability can be acheived
thus giving greater parts interchange between weapons.
And a3990918, I'll look around if I can acquire some of the publications on your list.
I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest
to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:
I've bought everything I need to build the smg, I've got all the tools needed (8mm 1:50 tapered pin reamer was the hardest
to get), now I need some time to build the device... I'll update my design when I'm finished and have tried the gun :cool:
There are different types of caps for play guns. When I was 7-8 yrs old my grandmother bought me a Musket & Pistol set (she
didn't know my dad had already given me a .22 single-shot) :eek:that shot, yes actually shot, hard cork balls. You rammed a
ball down the barrel(the guns came with ramrods), half cocked the hammer, placed a yellow plastic percussion cap on the
nipple, full cock and fire. Made a bang like a .22, from an 8yr olds view the ball flew a country mile, actually more like 30-40
feet .
These caps came in packs of 20, all fit together with legs like in a model car. Don't know if regular "Bang" caps would ignite
your charge, but these surely would. Have no idea where to get or if you can even get these caps anymore
My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel
already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit.
I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and
design criteria.
My thoughts on a Luty gun in something other than 9mm would lean towards 7.62x39. Easy with the mags, use an SKS barrel
already chambered or make use of the thousands of .30 barrel available and chamber to fit.
I look at the Luty design as more of a guideline than a verbatim set of directions, open to everyones own interpolation and
design criteria.
I found an online toy store which sells to Holland (where I live). They don't sell to other countries, I guess because they are
essentially explosives packed in a little pack. I remember I used to put them under my shoes and try to set them one roll at
a time using friction :D
They cost about €3,- for a pack of 20 rolls of 8 or 12 cap rolls. It's not the ball shooter you are talking about, but more the
blank fire type (red caps).
And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg
;)
http://rapidshare.com/files/98583841/DIY_SUB_2.rar.html
5.43mb
Pass: ROGUESCI.ORG
And Luty's design is indeed a guideline. He even says so in his books. I'm taking a little bit of 'freedom' in building the smg
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;)
Making something like that in Luty style would be insane, since Ive never seen assault rifle with open bolt conception and
open bolt with 7.62x39 cartridges !
Some kind of single shot rifle maybe, but automatic homemade rifle in that caliber, impossible for making in home.
M60 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60_machine_gun)
M1918 BAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1918_Browning_Automatic_Rifle)
Both are open-bolt machine guns chambered for powerful bullets. No they are not Luty style, but for more power you need
more experience in building this and I guess a little bit more powerful construction materials (seamless tubing for receiver
instead of the welded tubing, for instance)
I don't think it's impossible to build something similar using a SKS/SVD barrel or similar. In fact, I think this is what we should
be doing, improvising assault weapons/high powered rifles ;)
That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us :D
If I were to emigrate to America or Switzerland or whatever, I would try to make an assault rifle like the M60, chambered in the
Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. :rolleyes:
But if I'm not mistaken the barrel of a SVD (for example) has the extra piping needed above it already in place when bought.
So if you are able to buy it, it should be possible to improvise an assault weapon ;)
btw, the H&K G11, wasn't that the experimental caseless ammo assault rifle?
Well even though it was a joke, trying to make one for real would be quite an accomplishment. .45 acp would be my logical
upscale choice. I've fired both 9mm and .45 and I like them both. I've never fired the .357 sig and the .40 S&W, so I'm not
going to comment on those :D
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I read PA lutys plan for Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-Vol-II .32/.380 machine pistol and 9mm BSP_SMG are they the same?
The fact that you're asking tells me you've not read them both, or were asleep while reading them. They are not the same,
even though they are similar open-bolt type smg's.
Is there a book for a .22 machine pistol? What would I need to change for it be able to fire .22
You can try Bil Holmes' "Home Workshop Guns for Defense and Resistance - Volume 3 - The .22 Machine Pistol". It can be
found on rapidshare and on the FTP. This requires a workshop to build!!!
Changing a Luty into a .22lr machine gun you would have to change:
- the bolt size and weight
- spring strength
- barrel size
- magazine and magazine well
M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???
"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade
Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it.
Boys, stop fantasizing, and get to real work and results, this forum is not about intellectual masturbation and philosophic
thoughts, we need some damn results and useful thoughts.
Shrub, you should read EHF Vol.I 9mm SMG, its similar to .32 (and vice-versa).
M 60 "assault rifle" ( I hope you didnt watch First Blood too many times) chambered to russian mg round ???
"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade
Killy I was trying to make a point. I wasn't talking about creating it, I was just saying it's possible if you have the right
experience (which I don't have, sorry to say ;) ). I know neither one of BAR or the M60 uses russian ammo, and I know the
M60 is used for suppressive fire instead of actual assaults, but it started with somebody talking about SKS barrels, 7.62x39
ammo, and open bolt smgs. The M60 is an open bolt machinegun that uses rifle ammo and the SVD rifle is one of my
favorites, so I brought it up.
And smgs in .40 S&W, .45 ACP or in 357 SIG are possible, the cartridges are reasonably small (compared to rifle ammo), just
check out this pic:
As you can see, the .357 SIG and .40S&W aren't much bigger then a 9mm parabellum and are still considered pistol
cartridges.
"That people on other forums can't seem to build this, should be a challenge for us " -
first build SMG, than fantasize about other things that people cant seem to do it homemade
Dont post links for G11 because this thread is not about homemade G11, or something like it.
Dang Killy, No disrespect but what put the burr in your butt?? This forum is FOR "philosphic thoughts" and such.
Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification
This section is for discussion about building or modifying commercial firearms, firearm repair, full-auto conversion, and
resources for DIY gunsmiths.
Please note: "Discussion About" not "Bragging,Showing Off or Stating" what you have built.
As for me, that is all you will get, is my discussion and hypotheticals. I do not look forward to a mandatory prison
sentence:mad: because I was stupid enough to get on here and brag about building illegal firearms and/or the production of
explosives.
If people only discussed things that they had actually done, then there would be a significant reduction in the number of
posts.:( The banter back and forth between members will lead to new ideas in improvised gunsmithing. Most original thought
is the result of a persons dreams or fantasies brought to fruition. If you are building something such as this you should listen
and partake in the discussions, perhaps you will glean some insight on your own projects from someone else's "Bench
Smithing".
And why not post a link to the H&K G11? This thread is discussing a blow-back operated, open bolt weapon, which according to
IMHE is what the G11 is. Studing this weapon might lead to new ideas and improvements in Luty's design or even the
production of an entirely new style of improvised weapon.
How's this for a hypothetical improvision on the Luty design. Suppose in what ever part of the world somebody lives, that
factory load rounds or brass for the .45ACP are unavailable or hard to procure. Possibly .308 blanks are not covered under the
law. Obtain some blank brass, cut it down and make something akin to low pressure .44 Auto Mag? Could be scaled back to
the performance of a .45 or slightly better, be made on the kitchen table, bandoliers of .308 blanks are cheap and readily
available, this is a rim-less round so feeding and mag. construction should not be a problem. Any ideas??
The cartridge (http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/2030.html) was experimental and never fielded. But I personally believe that it
will some day in the future be the cartridge of choice for militaries and law enforcement world wide. But by all means lets get
back to discussing the idea about a smg. We can make a separate thread for the assault rifle.
Also even if .357 SIG and .40 are smaller than 9mm, they are considerably more hotter in terms of the load, they also have a
more powerful recoil. Even if .45 is physically larger than 9mm it is lower pressure and thus it could be actually safer and easier
to make a improvised smg in .45 than 9mm. The .45 of cource costs more than 9mm and is bigger. So the capacity of the
small easily built single stack mags would be even more reduced. And wasn't the "minute man smg" made in .45?
Saw this link in a post in the BP section. Thought it might work as a way to expedite your cartridge production.:)
http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FRTC1000
http://yarchive.net/gun/homemade_smg.html
I too have been interested in the various "home" or "shop" made SMG's used by both sides in Northern Ireland over the
years. There is very little information on the various models made. I do know that the IRA manufactured straight copies of the
Sten. I have seen pictures of them, and they look identical to the British "factory" model. I'm not sure whether the barrels
were rifled or not.
As for the Avenger and other esoteric models, I have been looking for a while myself. Anybody else got any info?
I have been thinking about making them in either 8mm or 9mm blanks.
The 8mm ones are cheaper, but with the 9mm ones I might be able to use the same bolt for blank and real cartridges.
And if I make, port and plug the barrel in a correct way it should be completely legal here.
And if I'm going to use blanks I'd have to make a reloading press style press with a crimping die to make the blanks feed
properly.
Any way it is time to reread both Lutys books on the mk1 and mk2.
I am probably at a similar stage to you. I have gathered some of the basic materiels and have sourced almost all the rest. I
think it is important to do this as I've found that if you are not in the UK as P Luty is, you will most likely find that not all the
exact tube sizes are available. An example of this is in my country. I legally own a 9mm pistol, so ammunition is no problem.
However, there are no SMT/SHT tubes with the correct 9mm bore available here. I have access to a friend who runs an
engineering shop who will bore and polish a suitable barrel out of steel for me though, so I'm lucky in that regard.
I should be able to commence with my build in about a month or so, time permitting. I have only basic tools in my garage,
but do have access to a small lathe and then obviously my engineer friend has all the equipment needed. I would prefer to
use him only when absolutely essential though. I intend building Lutys' 9mm Machine Pistol with the magazine body made
from a single piece of rectangular tubing. I intend following the design as faithfully as possible as part of my learning process.
Any major modifications or improvements will be limited to a possible follow on construction.
Good luck on your project, and please let me know how you are progressing.
On the luty smg, I'll make the mk1 lower first and later the mk2 lower.
I don't have a friend with a lathe, so I have to make with the tools I have and that I can make or improvise.
Thank god that I have a angle and a bench grinder along with my semi-improvised drill press.
We all agree?
Right, now after more than 10 years of his 'fictional' crude contraptions, along with various books, diagrams and so-called
blueprints, how many of us have actually seen a fully functioning article- of any of his devices?
Not a single Luty de sign has e ver reportedly been produced , that s a fact, although m any attempts have been m ade.
I could add lots of pictures of the 380/.32 EHF Vol.2 parts that I have made and assembled, and also list the reasons of why
in practice, that this gun would not functio n but I d rather you find out for yourselves.
Following this, is a link to a British site where you can acquire most of the material for this build.
http://www.hublebas.co.uk/
I would like someone to prove me wrong I really would, but after so much time and effort I have put into his work, just too
may modifications would have to be made, rendering his work merely a blank canvas!
I was intending to use a steering shaft for my barrel. A friend donated one to me, and a second friend who owns an
engineering concern was going to bore it out for me. Unfortunately, the shaft has not proved suitable due to it already having
a bore of slightly larger than 9mm diameter. I only found this out once it was in my posession and after a little cutting. I have
now resorted to sawing a piece of a defective air rifle barrel off and will hand this over to be bored and polished to the correct
9mm diameter. The barrel outside diameter is 15mm and is therefor identical to the tubing Mr Luty used.
I have access to a lathe at night, so on Friday night I will machine the bolt from roundstock. I will have help on this as I've
never worked as a metalworker or machinest. I'm hoping my little project will educate me a little more in this field. I've found
that not all the tubing in my country is identical to that in the book, but I intend to match them as closely as possible and
adjust where necessary. I hope to post some pictures in the next week or 2.
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neetje August 29th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Not a single Luty de sign has e ver reportedly been produced , that s a fact, although m any attempts have been m ade.
You're wrong, somebody has already made it. Check this post from killy:
Here is the only reproduction of Luty project on the net that I found.
It is from page
http://www.geocities.com/homemadefirepower/
that is blank right now (and would stay probably forever)
Although the link is dead now, it did show a complete build of the luty smg. The author remarked he hadn't fired it in full auto,
but had fired several single shots with it. I hope the link comes up once again, but I doubt it.
I can look up some of the pictures that were on the site, but I'd have to check my old computer. Send me a pm if you want
these pics ;)
Jolly-roger, have you considered that the type of person making a Luty machine pistol is most likely going to be living in a
country where ownership of those types of weapon is frowned upon? Otherwise, he would just go out and buy a factory
produced SMG. Therefore it stands to reason that it is hardly likely that people would advertise a complete weapon...
I must admit I'm still debating whether to post any pictures of my project once I finish it.
This of course is not to deny that there will most likely have to be a fair amount of modification and "hand-fitting" of any
completed project. This I always expected. I'm also finding that different countries have different tube sizes, so a fair amount
of improvisation will have to be done even before the first hole is drilled. I will most likely find it necessary to modify quite a
bit during my construction....
I have now all Luty's plans, Bill Holmes 3 machine pistol plans, as well as Metrals' design. I believe that solutions can be
found to any submachine gun design, given the fact that an SMG is quite a basic weapon....
I didn't want to make new thread since we're discussing about smg's anyway. I have been offered deactivated UZI smg which I
think I could be able to reactivate. I am still to ask how it has been destroyed. Most likely there is metal plug in the barrel and
the bolt has been destroyed, but the parts in general are all moving. Does anybody know more of deactivated guns like this
and how feasible they are to reactivate with post drill, welding machine and a sanding/grinding machine? I wouldnt't like to
purchase it only to see it has been fully cut apart due to high price(nearly 2 grands).
Is it a blank firer?
I'm not savvy to UZ1s in general, but in most other demilled, non-firing replicas they use a plastic or aluminum receiver and a
totally non-funtioning bolt. (it's just outwardly appearing to be cosmetically correct. Besides the barrel drilling, if needed or at
all possible, you'd be in need of many more hard to obtain parts to make it function at all, IMHO. If the barrel is plugged
somehow, they pretty much make sure it's beyond repair in those cases. Drilling the weld or plug could mess it up entirely if
welded from the breech, especially.
If in the case of a blank-firing replica made from original parts, however, you may just need a new barrel, but I cannot swear
to that, to be completely honest with you.
Might try some people who have a serious love for Israeli weapons, though. Try http://www.uzitalk.com for a better grasp on
your prospective purchase...
The pin through chamber worries me most. It can somehwat easily be reinforced by drilling a bit from the sides and welding a
couple of mills but there still might be danger of blowing or ripping apart the chamber when firing. The pin is made of
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hardened steel but you say it, tungsten carbide drills, even diamond drills can be bought from hardware store.
For 2 grands, if I just dare to ask you, how could one obtain compact durable genral calibre full-auto? In europe one can not
just purchase a working semi-auto gun and saw it pieces and turn to full-auto. :rolleyes:
Generally speaking, firearms de-activated before this period/new legislation have proved to be relatively easier to re-activate,
and therefor command much higher prices. Perhaps your Uzi is one of these, although "2 grand" seems a very steep asking
price! Many of the Yardie gangster hits have been carried out by such weapons.
This is in the UK though, so I'm not too sure how it is in the rest of Europe.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http://
img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Well, here we have 3 creations, the left one looks even like its one of Luty designs ("smg vol.3"),
the right is fitted with some kind of silencer, and in the center even looks like something not home-made.
Antoher pic. I found, Its another home-made smg that mi5 acquired investigating on North Ireland loyalist groups in 1995 :
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9086/mi51995uvffa2.th.gif (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=mi51995uvffa2.gif)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Its a small and bad picture, but grip looks like from revolver !
It would be higly appreciated if we have anybody on forum thats from Ireland and have some more info on subject.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3861/uff1ck3.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uff1ck3.jpg)http://
img20.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
It seems like his lefty and righty lads have notorious "Avenger" (manufactured about 10 years ago)
finaly got info on them from good friend :
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7771/avengerqx7.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=avengerqx7.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7518/avenger2io7.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?
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image=avenger2io7.jpg)http://img219.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8314/avengswernr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=avengswernr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Pretty heavy barrel on these square section smg.
Since no bolts are visible on side of barrel shroud end, I guess the barrel is pinned in place by welding or soldering.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4205/rectangularsidecf8.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=rectangularsidecf8.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Another design, this is made from round tubing, first one with magazine on side, second has magazine under :
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7328/round1jf7.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=round1jf7.jpg)http://img221.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8739/round2pr0.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=round2pr0.jpg)http://img222.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Apparently, those rectanglar and round designs look like they are based on smg from the book
"improvised weapons of american underground",
another info for that is from magazine Firepower, article (1984)
called ".45 minuteman SMG", its available on net, but horrible scan, maybe somebody could find better.
As is apparent, the SMG can be quite a basic weapon, whilst the magazines seem always to be sourced from existing designs.
I have just read your PM, but I've been busy with work commitments and a work related trip, but I hope to inform of my
progress so far, which has not been as much as I hoped. Perhaps the Christmas holidays will provide some of the time I
need...
Good work on those drawings Killy. I think it's the first time the Avenger SMG has been posted on the internet. I certainly have
never been able to find much.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Full auto conversio n of
t h e B a i k a l D r o z d C O 2 gun.
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View Full Version : Full auto conversion of the Baikal Drozd CO2 gun.
http://www.flopped.org/~m ykrowyre/drozd/
http://www.yorkguns.co.uk
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > R emington 1100 full-
auto ???
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But a lot peo ple were referring to the amazon or loom panics book sales links in which I'd have to fork over an undisclosed
a m ount of cash for a conversion book that for the m ost part , wont be easily acco mplished or even work for that m atter.
C a n t s o m e o n e t h a t h a s s a i d e x o t i c w e a p o n s s y s t e m b o o k o n t h e r e m ington 1100 m a k e i t a v a i l a b l e o n l i n e a s h a v e s o m a n y
other conversions like the SKS to Full auto , or the Semi to Full-auto AK47 select fire conversion?
I m ean damnit jim! I'm no tig ht ass, but for what my ru ger 10/2 2 exotic weapons system b o o k g o t m e a n d m y open bolt 10/
2 2 b o o k d i d t o o , I ' l l b e d a m ned if I get ripped off again.
I screwed up several parts at first. Plus you have to be able to figgure out that so me of th e " T e m p lates" are not the right
scale, m esure them and convert them .
Also the aternate trip mechanism, which there are no tem plates for is the best set up.
The way the last post reads, it sounds like billybobobrain was already attem pted an illegal conversion, and has basically
a d m itted it in a public forum. I'm sure this is not the case, and it is merely that there is a misunderstanding of som e sort, b ut
care should be used with how things are worded here. This particular site happens to be on a lot of watch lists.
All o f the information I have collected, shared, or viewed is used for ente rtainm ent and education only. I would never attem p t
an actual project based on information such as what you are discussing. As I'm sure nobody else here would. One m ight say
that the information they received from one of these books was worthless intellectually, but I wouldn't word it to sou nd like I
had tried it a nd failed.
It doesn't take much for FEDs to get search warrants for things like illega l weapons. An adm ission of guilt in a public online
forum m ight be enough for the BATFE to drop in for a visit.
I didn't m ean to write such a large, nagging, post. My m ain poin t is just to be careful how you word things online. I would hate
t o f i n d o u t t h a t s o m e k i d g o t r a i d e d a n d a r r e s t e d o n s o m e bullshit charge because of a m isinterpreted post.
The way the last post reads, it sounds like billybobobrain was already attem pted an illegal conversion, and has basically
a d m itted it in a public forum. I'm sure this is not the case, and it is merely that there is a misunderstanding of som e sort, b ut
care should be used with how things are worded here. This particular site happens to be on a lot of watch lists.
All o f the information I have collected, shared, or viewed is used for ente rtainm ent and education only. I would never attem p t
an actual project based on information such as what you are discussing. As I'm sure nobody else here would. One m ight say
that the information they received from one of these books was worthless intellectually, but I wouldn't word it to sou nd like I
had tried it a nd failed.
It doesn't take much for FEDs to get search warrants for things like illega l weapons. An adm ission of guilt in a public online
forum m ight be enough for the BATFE to drop in for a visit.
I didn't m ean to write such a large, nagging, post. My m ain poin t is just to be careful how you word things online. I would hate
t o f i n d o u t t h a t s o m e k i d g o t r a i d e d a n d a r r e s t e d o n s o m e bullshit charge because of a m isinterpreted post.
Excellent advice. As far as I know, BATFE officia ls investigate every alleged NFA violation.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Great .22 suppressor design
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View Full Version : Great .22 suppressor design
Looks very professional compared to the 'homeshop' or 'homebench' silencer made from pvc pipes and coke cans.
I wouldn't have thought of using a maglight body, but thinking about it more it seems like the perfect item to start w ith.
I do have one question though... How did you make/acquire the "nylon / delrin rod" that you used for the central baffling? Was it a solid piece that you carved and drilled?
Thanks in advance for answering...
As to using a Maglite body as a supressor tube, w ell this seems a bit expensive to me. Why doesn't he use a normal Al-tube? Al-tubes are available in any imaginable size at
reasonable prices, certainly much cheaper than a Maglite.
Right now I'm trying to do it on a M4/AR15, I don't know if the aluminium body will be enough for the pressure of a 223 round. Most 223 silencers are 300 series stainless
steels.
http://ww w.advanced-armament.com/products/rifles/ranger.asp
http://ww w.gem-tech.com/m4-96d.html
http://ww w.impactguns.com/store/knights_m4qd_silencer.html
Just do a google search for delrin. Also, w hen you order, there is minimum cost, so be sure to add extra feet to the length. I ended up getting 3 feet for the same as a foot, just
because of the minimum cost.
I remember searching google a few months ago on silencer designs, and reached a w ebsite w hich involved making silencers from maglite torch casings, this may be the same
one, or a different site, running on the same idea.
They looked quite impressive, and could be dissasembled for cleaning by unscrewing the battery cover.
And IIRC, the guy was trying to sell them from his website.
Maybe the maglite could be reassembled later to disguise the silencer, they are illegal in a lot of countries aren't they?
That maglite w ill never be re-assembeled again- He's used a lathe to cut away the end w ith the switch button and permanently affixed the barrel end bushing w here it once
was.
Nice design making use of OTC product- and maglites come up to 6-"D" cell.
Buying a knurling tool would probably be cheaper and he could make more nice looking supressors for all his other rifles as well.
My guess is any Al-tubing is pretty much OTC, well maybe not the Al-tubes used in gasultracentrifuges.
just use a led and button batteries to give the illusion that the maglite was still just an operational flashlight (illustration below)
The common link I found in all the designs I looked at was the ratio between the gas volume generated by the pow der charge, the bore volume, and the internal volume of the
supressor. This ratio (w ich I call the expansion factor) ranged from 13 - 17. My design has an internal volume of 11.19 in3 across 13 baffles, giving it an EF of 13.
The baffles were made from aircraft aluminum stock and the spacers were turned and bored from stock PVC pipe. The muzzle adapter w as made from the same aluminum as
the baffles and was tapped w ith 1/2-28 UNF threads. The rifle muzzle was CNC machined to ensure less than .005" TIR runout.
I still have the Excel spreadsheet and Solidworks files if anyone is interested.
Even though the 597 is a semi-auto, this supressor preforms extremely w ell w et or dry. All that you hear is the hammer and the round impact when using Dynamit Nobel
subsonic .22LR ammo. At 100 yards without the supressor, groups average .75". With the supressor, groups average .5".
This HappyNanoq doesn't seem to be utilising the maglites internal volume to its full potential and the more baffled chambers there are, the more effective it w ill be.
BTW, Gedi, thanks for the note about googling for Delrin...since DaedalusX w as from Eur, I thought it was a product from there, as I didn't recognize the name...
http://ww w.happynanoq.dk/22lrsilencer/
Also, since everything has to be perfect, when threading the hole, what do you guys reccomend to ensure a perfect perpendicular tapped hole?
In reviewing old US Patent Office files on firearm suppressors (Patent #4,530,417) it appears that cooling of the combustion gases assists the reduction in sound. Has anyone
tried placing aluminum, brass or copper w ool (similar to steel wool) in the voids to absorb heat and sound?
++ ++++ =
If you're going to provide a link, please be bothered to make it complete, eh? ;) NBK
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > SKS full auto conversion w/pics
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The *.PCX Files, Sear1, Sear2, and Sear3, should help you out
much more than these notes. If you can't view *.PCX files, let me
know, I can supply *.TIF, *.MSP, *.IMG, *.CUT, & *.GX1 formats.
The reason I didn't include them is simply to keep the file
package smaller, hopefully increasing your incentive to get it.
The first thing you gotta do, before you even consider making the
conversion, is KNOW HOW TO DISASSEMBLE YOUR TRIGGER GROUP (Not
just take it out, but strip it down to it's major components). If
you don't know how to do that, even after studying the thing for
twenty minutes, then forget it!
Once you get your trigger group out, you must first remove the
Hammer. The hammer has a 'nub' at the bottom which acts as a
SECONDARY Disconnect. Cut that 'nub' off.
In the Trigger Group, under the Hammer, you will find the PRIMARY
Disconnect. When you force the hammer BACK, you will notice the
bottom of the Hammer pushes down on two tits of THIS Disconnect
(One on either side, though it's a single 'folded' unit). You
only have to remove as much metal from these tits as it takes to
prevent the Hammer from contacting them. Once you've got that
done, the Disconnect work is finished.
Next comes the Primary Sear. This is the "Block" located at the
forward end of the trigger group. It is pushed backward by a
Spring that fits between this Sear and the Magazine Catch.
With the Primary Sear Block removed, cut a "shelf" onto it that
you will be able to see through the Inspection Hole. Here too,
you want this "shelf" to be about 3/32 of an inch thick. You
won't need it more than 3/32 of an inch deep either. Once you've
got this "shelf" done, you move on to the Trigger Sear.
The Trigger Sear is a "T"-Shaped Bar you can see best only by
pulling up on the Full Auto Trip (The big, angled thing that
sticks up out front of the Hammer). If you haven't removed the
Primary Disconnect (discussed a little ways back) then do so now
or you won't be able to finish the job! The front end of the
Trigger Sear only needs to be reshaped to fit securely on the
Shelf you cut into the Sear Block.
Once you've got the Trigger Sear reshaped, reassemble the Trigger
Group and put it back in the gun and have a field day.
This is the point at which the Full Auto Sear is 'critical'. Any
movement forward, from here, pushes the Full Auto Trip Down,
disengaging the Full Auto Sear and letting the Hammer Drop.
Because there is some distance, now, between the Hammer and the
Firing Pin, there is a time-lag between when the Bolt Shuts and
when the Hammer hits home. In a Closed-Bolt system, this timing
is basically the only thing that ensures the gun will go off!
flat piece of Sheet Steel about a half inch wide. You'll then
need to 'bend' this piece of sheet steel to fit around the
outside of the trigger group, starting at the point between the
Hammer and the Primary Disconnect, to fill in the "gap" you made
by relieving the Primary Disconnect as described earlier, and
wrapping around the Trigger Group clear to the same place on the
opposite side. This little gizmo, if made right, will 'slide'
back and forth. Full Auto will have it fully to the rear, Semi-
will be had by pushing it forward, jamming it between the Hammer
and the Disconnect. It's more of a Pain in the ass than it's
worth, though, since you can actually shoot Double-taps within
the first ten rounds you ever load - And you should find yourself
shooting singles within the first twenty.
First you'll cut through the sleeve, and then through the barrel.
Cut a little shy of the half-way mark (You want SOME Barrel
there, and you want the gas to go more "up" than "out"). Move the
blade about two blade widths forward (Toward the Sight base), and
cut another slot. You have room for about 5 slots if you done it
right. If you done it wrong, Hell! Just file out all the middle
'vents', leaving you a big gaping hole (I did that to mine as a
way to clear mud - I carry the gun over the Shoulder, muzzle down
- Sometimes when you sit down....uh....well, you know)
When you're done with the saw, use a pocket knife or screw-driver
to 'pick out' the burrs the saw left behind. When you fire the
gun, you will notice a 'difference' in the recoil. It's not less,
it's not more, it's just 'different'. But you will notice a BIG
Difference in your shot-string! All things being equal, the gun
wants to shoot in circles, instead of vertically!
finished). Fill the tube, around the dowel, with Steel Wool or
fiberglass (Fiberglass is the Quietest - But Always use SOME
steel wool at the gun's muzzle-end anyway - Helps prevent the
Fiberglass from blowing back into the action). Keep the Dowel as
close to the middle of the pipe as you can - This will be the
Bullet Path when you take the dowel out.
Now put one of the Toilet "Flapper Valves" at one end of the
larger (Inch and a Half Inner Diamater) tube. You'll notice the
'Flapper' is Hollow - With an opening at the bottom of it's Cone
Shaped 'Skirt' - This opening faces INTO the Tube - The Outside
Solid Wall of the Flaper faces the OUTSIDE End of the Tube. It's
not necessary, but it's 'good luck' to cut an "X" in the middle
of the Flapper's Solid Wall - This eliminates any danger of any
real pressure build-up.
Now take your other Flapper and cut a hole in it's Solid Wall the
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same size as your threaded Muzzle Brake. Take the dowel out of
your smaller tube and insert this tube into the larger one. Place
the other Flapper at this end where your gun muzzle will fit.
Put a 3/8ths inch hole in one Cap and put that cap on the FAR End
where the bullet will be leaving the supressor.
Drill and Tap a hole in the other cap to fit the threads you cut
into your muzzle brake. Place this cap on the opposite end of
your now completed Supressor.
Since SK's are running at about $100, even an AK owner may think
twice about investing in a Parts Kit since you can have a Full
Auto SK for the same (actually less) money!
Neil :rolleyes:
Here's a few sks sears required to convert to Full-auto.
Sear 1:
http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear1.jpg
Sear 2:
http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear2.jpg
Sear 3:
http://www.geocities.com/hiveaddict2000/sear3.jpg
Well I'm sure not too many of you are interested in the milled sks autosear, because here it is and not a "cool, or a right on" from anyone.
Not that i crave anyones praise, but I just was hoping to help someone out with the 3 sear pics and the step-by-step in converting it in a way that wont blow your face off
when it fires out of battery.
Now having said that, Welcome to the forum. I for one appreciate your willingness to share. Hang out, chill, enjoy the ride and learn all you can about all you can before it
disappears.
oh yeah,
And never assume someone hasn't benefitted from your contribution. Some of us will talk, but others (like me) would never tell anyone about actually having performed (or
thinking about performing) anything illegal........
With all the kick ass shit here on this forum it seems like I'm never gonna get a glance at that FTP site. Well maybe a glance, but as for having access to it.... it seems
impossible..
see you
herminiano
Good work!
I know XP thinks it has an accaptable FTP function, but it dont. Not for Uploading or Downloading.
I'd suggest at very least purchasing an SKS-D or an SKS-M made from the factory and insuring it's reliability before tinkering it to full auto.
FWIW a friend once owned a factory built FN49 FA rifle with a 10 round clip fed magazine in 8mm.
It would make what sounded like one BIG bang, with the rounds stringing about 8 feet vertically at 50 yards. Impressive,turned a lot of heads at the local range, but basically
useless in combat.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Home Workshop Guns
For Defense & Resistance, Vol. II
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thanks.
thanks.
thanks.
That is an awesome link with lots of good info, for noob s without chem istry backgrounds a t least!
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > full auto conversions
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But I do have some basic powertools, like a drill press, stone griding wheel, and couple of dremel tools.... plus everthing you
would find a wood shop.
Unfortunately the other torrents you link to on silencers etc. cannot be downloade d without a Dem onoid account as they are too
old, and accounts are presently closed.
T h e n e e d e d m odification would be very easy to accomplish. The problem aside from legality would be that the auto-firing
m echanism would be uncontrollable. The bolt-slap continual firin g would m aintain itself un til amm o was exhausted. But from a
m echanical stand-point it is VERY easy to produce this effect.
the simplest conversion would be a M1 carbine to M2, requires the purchase of a hand full of non regulated parts and no
m odification to existing parts.
second easiest would be the AK but it requires that the triparm and bolt scallop be properly timed, difficult to perform without
knowledge of the systems design and function.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > The Home Gunsmith
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http://www.thehomegunsmith.com/
:(
Well,
Let's see ......
1. He was convicted of illegally manufacturing a full auto firearm. And to be completely fair---- he did do it. He admits it and there is photographic proof of him constructing it
as well. All politics aside he is/was guilty. No further questions or arguments for (or from) either side.
2. Now that he is out of prison, he continues to publish information on constructing the same type of weapons and also now is into ammunition construction as well. Technically
this is not illegal since all he is doing is disseminating information. As of yet there is no evidence of any recent illicit happenings.
3. HOWEVER! and this is the point of contention (I am sure) If you are convicted of a crime and then try and teach others how to commit the same crime, you are going to
continue to attract the attention of the authorities.....for a long time......a very LONG time.
In short he has broken the 1st and possibly 2nd rule of any one who does not want this kind of attention.
1. Leave no witnesses.
2. Leave no trace.
Now having said that ( I know, you weren't expecting a lecture were you?)
I hope this is only a temporary setback... the world needs more people like P.A. Luty
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > R eactivating a Glock 17
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Now, say if I got my hands onto the co mplete uppers section of a Glock 17 brand new, this would include a barrel top slide
a n d a l l c o m p o n e n t s I t h a t slide and t h e Recoil Rod. And let s s a y I g o t m y h a n d s o n t o a complete receiver part replacem e n t
kit. (All parts in side the receiver).
Now I would have thought from that it would have been possible to reactivate the Glock 17. The on ly thing that I am concern e d
about is that, the barrel in the Glock 17 might not be re m o v a b l e i.e. welded in place which will m ake it difficult.
For am munition I would have though if I got some INER T a m m u nition I would be able to convert this into live amm unition is
this possible?
This post is of course theoretically speaking and I am n ot going to build the firearm a n d g o r o b a b a n k l o l : e e k :
I'm a s s u m ing the barrel has been plugged and welded into place, with the slide rails cut to weaken them ?
Also, have you searched for previous discussion threads here ab out reactivation of DEWAT ' s a n d p r o p g u n s ?
If it can't be diassembled, try to get your hands on a LEP-Glock (it's a real Glock m odified to an air gun, I forget the english
Brandname for this type of gu n). with this type of modification only the b arrel and the slide is mod ified. Reactivating see
above.
Also, the only "deactivated" glocks I've seen are cutawa ys. W ould be interested to know about other m ethods of deactivation,
and used by whom.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Plans of Sardauker
Press
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http://rapidshare.de/files/155 98534/Sarpen.zip.htm l
It's the Sardaukar Zapper, a modified Zippo lig hter to fire .22 short.
I even bought that zips pens and pipes book to look at the scaled down diagrams of each of the plans, which is useless after
s e e i n g t h e s e especiallty.
There are the plans for the Buckler Belt Buckel Gun. The Plans for the Bo lt Gun will follow soon.
Thanks.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Brocock revolver conversion to live firing
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This adapter consists of a round steel body which is turned to the outer shape and dimensions of the Brocock air cartridge. It is much easier to use a thickwalled tube with a 5 mm or 5,5 mm bore and turn it to the proper
outside dimensions and after that drill and ream the inside holes. If a metal lathe is not available a tube can be dressed to the proper shape if chucked in a electrical drill and by using a file (lots of skill is required by that way an
it s lots of work).
The adapter is drilled and reamed all way through the middle with a hole of the size of the .22 lr cartridge, if a chamber reamer (Brownells) is availble great, if not a suitable drill and a normal reamer will suffice.
The second larger hole is drilled and reamed only partly through, this hole holds the hammer.
The hammer is a piece of small round steel or brass stock with a small firing pin, which is fixed off-center to hit the .22 lr cartridge rim. There two ways to make the hammer. First way would be to drill a small hole off-center
in the hammer face and solder/epoxy a short piece of 1 1,5 mm diameter piano wire in it, it should protrude not more than 1,5 mm and the striker face should be slightly rounded. The next ways is to cut a slot at the side of the
hammer and solder/epoxy in a flat piece of spring steel, see diagrams
Dimensions of the .22 long rifle cartridge and chamber might come in handy for making the adapter. The first number is the maximum dimension of the cartridge, the second number in brackets is the minimum
dimension of the chamber, all dimensions are in millimeters (mm).
Lenght of the shell body (L3): 15,57 (16,33), Thickness of cartridge rim (R): 1,09 (1,09),
Diameter of cartridge base (R1): 7,06 (7,32), Diameter of shell body at the base (P1): 5,74 (5,76), Diameter of the shell body at the cartridge throat (H2): 5,72 (5,72).
Different types of adapters can be made. One as described above for firing a .22 lr cartridge, thos adapter can also be used to load .22 blanks with separate bullets if access to .22 long rifle cartridges is regulated
by gun laws.An adapter can be made which could use blank firing center firing cartridges and be loaded with a separate bullet also adapters can be made to load a air gun pellet ( BB or Diabolo) and use a center fire
primer ( shotgun shell primer or any other type of Boxer primer) for propulsion (see diagrams).
Proper tools, especially drills and reamers can be bought at any tools shop which supplies metal working shops. Drills and reamers are available at 0,1 mm steppings. A very good source for gun smithing tools,
like chamber reamers and properly sized drills, is Brownells (www.brownells.com/).
1. Chamber Pressure: Your "conversion" cartrages had better be pretty strong of quality steel. A "Target" .22LR, 40gr bullet at 1080 fps developes 26,500 psi chamber pressure and a "Full Blown" .22LR 38gr bullet
Super/Hyper Velocity up to 1750 fps has to be pushing at least 30,000 psi chamber pressure. I'm not sure what the Maximum SAMMI listed chamber pressure for a .22LR is.
2. Barrrel throat wear: All pistol barrels have a "Forcing Cone" at the start of the barrel that A. Starts the bullet into the rifeling and B. Compensates for slightly with Out-of-Time cylinders (the cylinder chambers
don't exactly line up with the bore). The barrel is made for a .22 cal soft lead pellet expelled at about 410 fps by a "cold" gas. A regular .22LR cartrage bullet is expelled by a "Very Hot" gas at 3-4 times the velocity
that the pistols barrel isn't made to take and may well fail in a very short time. It will depend on the steel used by the manufacture of the barrel.
3. Recoil Shock: The frame of the pistol could well be cheap "Pot" metal as a CO2 pellet at 410fps isn't going to produce much recoil. A .22LR may produce a lot more recoil shock to the frame than it's made to
withstand. Again it comes down to what steel the maufacturer used to make the frame from.
I think from a safety stand point #1 is your biggest problem to overcome. #2 is much less of a problem other than accuracy over a period of time though that time could be very short. I think #3 falls somewhere in
between #1 and #2 but "may" be avoided by just making sure you buy a good quality pistol in the first place to make the conversion with.
There are two types of this guns, first are real guns converted to Brocock Air Cartridge System and ones which are originaly produced for this Brocock system. In Germany they are called LEP (Luft Energie
Patrone). There are also pistols available, but this conversion only works with revolvers because the cartridge shells of the pistol ammo is to small/short to take the .22 lr cartridge and the special striker/
hammer. Also the firing pin of Brocock Pistols is flatened so it will not fire a primer or a blank cartridge.
The conversion is certainly not only feasible ,it works. Did it, tested it with several types of Brocock revolvers. With this type of adapter it certainly does not make sense to go to a shooting competition, but for
self defence it's ok.
To #1: I'm european so I use the metric system, sorry. A .22 lr cartridge develops a maximum pressure (CIP) of 1800 bar which translates to 180 Newton per square millimeter. Even the softest steel has a
tensile strenght of about 330 - 380 N/mm2 and even the more interesting yield strenght for dynamic stresses is over 220 N/mm2. No pressure problem at all with .22 long rifle ammo. So, I would not advice to use
high velocity ammo, with short barrled revolvers it wouldn't make sense anyway.
The steel adapter takes all the pressure and distributes it over it's large outside area to the cylinder walls, it's just a few Newtons. The adapter could even be fired without being in the cylinder from a pressure point
of view.
to #2: The barrel liners used in Brocock revolvers are genuine .22 barrel liners made of steel and like in all revolvers (and in any other gun as well) the barrel has a forcing cone.
to #3: What recoil? Have you ever shot a .22 lr? The recoil of a .22 lr is so weak, even plastic can stand it. Many commercial .22 lr guns also have a frame of what you call "pot-metal", I know of at least one .38
Special revolver which also has a die cast zinc alloy frame and it doesn't cause it any problems.
The high velocity hot powder gases can and will cause errossion of the frame around and above where the barrel is fixed to it, but with a .22 lr it's not a real problem.
BTW. I made the first prototype of the adapter out of brass because I had the brass round stock at hand and it worked.
By the way, this conversion has been known for some time by the police, have the brockocks remained the same in the mean time?
It's not about the pressure, the maximum pressure of a cartridge is regulated by SAAMI in the USA and by CIP in most other countries, and a gun must be constructed so it will withstand the maximum pressure
of the calibre it is made for.
It's a question of bullet weight and velocity or to make it short it's about energy. A high velocity cartridge will stress the gun more than a normal cartridge will do because it develops a higher energy.
To Jacks Complete: It's really a shame what they are doing in the UK. But it's going to get thougher everywhere in Europe. I agree totally with you if one can get his hands on a real gun, be legal or not, I wouldn't
bother with converting a Brocock. But getting an illegal gun is not everybodies bussines, one must be afraid not only of police and snitches but also of the illegal gun dealers itself.
So it comes all down to availability and ease of availbility. A Brocock is certainly easier to get than a real gun in most parts of Europe. Brocock's or LEP's (have a look at www.egun.de and do a search for LEP) as
they are called in Germany are readily available in Germany for anyone who is at least 18 years old. Btw. parcels send within Europe are no longer subject to customs controlls.
And the real beauty lies in the fact that the gun needs not to be altered and the adapter itself is legal in most countries. As far as I know it is easier to get a licence for a Brocock gun in the UK than it is for the real
McCoy, at least one doesn't need to provide a reason for having a Brocock, but I'm not an expert on UK gun laws.
Section 1 (Brocock grandfathering) is fairly straightforward, just have the police come round for an interview, send them counter-signed pictures, money, get a safe, go to a gun club for 6 months, fill out a big
form, have your criminal and medical records checked, and more.
Section 5 (where non-grandfathered Brococks are) is a letter from the Secretary of State, and allows ownership of real pistols, machineguns, rocket launchers, etc. I've heard that there are 7 people with these for
pistols in the entire country. Even gun shops can't have them! Oh, and expanding bullets live there too, along with AP and explosive and incendiary rounds.
As far as I can see these are conversions from live guns to airguns. Not that I am familiar with german law, but doesn't the conversion to normal weapon include making it permanently useless for live ammo? Are
you saying any LEP be remade into a live firearm as long as it's 5.5 mm?
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tomu April 19th, 2006, 08:51 PM
You are right on both assumptions.
Brocock/LEP revolvers in .22/5.5 mm calibre can be made to fire live .22 lr cartridges with the help of the above described adapter without making any modifications on the gun itself.
http://rapidshare.de/files/27105290/brocock_adapters.jpg.html
The little (originally .38 spec) Derringer is very nice. I see it's current owner payed 190 to convert it to LEP.
Applications for existing owners had to be in by January of last year (or was it the year before). It is also ilegal to sell or transfer said weapons.
As for getting them sent in from mainland Eurpope; if you could find someone willing to do it, all overseas parcel post is x-rayed and dog handled. Almost impossible to get one in.
That said there are something like 25000 unlicensed Brococks still in circulation.
The adapter conversion works perfectly with brass and steel as a UK Govt firearms supplier informed me.
sibear, yes, that's right. To get a new one legally, you need Section 5. Which is impossible to get. So you can buy (and be "trusted" with) a .50BMG rifle, but not a toy air pistol. Great country!
My reasons for using a starter pistol are seemingly obvious, it's meant to fire blanks, which are simply cartridges without the bullets (though there may be differences in the powder used, or the amount, if I'm
wrong please correct me) so you know it's meant to take that kind of stress.
And since the only kind that you can effectively modify into a live fire weapon is a revolver, it's easier to find one real cheap. The one I purchased I got at a hunting goods store, if they ask any questions, it's so you
can train your dog for hunting. I don't know about the availability across the pond though.
Congrtulation, for making these adapters. I experienced the same problem with my first prototype adapters, the problem was that I drilled the hole through slightly angled because the drill went off maybe 0.1 mm
or so. Solution was I drilled the hole first in the round stock and then turned the outside contours between centers.
I used a cylinder made for firing live ammunition, and put a liner in the barrel, (as I'd written in my previous post.) I have fired it. It's not accurate, but it works, and it's safe to shoot.
Hello Tomu,
Unfortunately I can't sell these adapters, under the valid gun laws in my country it's not clear if one needs a licences to buy them. And I'm certainly not the one who will find out in judical trial.
Interesting enough it is not illegal to make them by yourself at least where I live. Who am I to ask for some sense in laws.
If you can't make them yourself, there are always small machineshops who will make them for you for a fee. All they need is a scetch and the exact measurements. Without the hammerpiece it's a hardguess for
them what the adapters are for.
I know st37 steel (common) can hold the .22LR pressures but what about the .22WMR?
The .22WMR the same in rim and diameter as the .22LR, the only difference is in its length and of course its energy and pressure.
If pressure would be the only concern just use 42CrMo4 (in the US I think it's 4130) or similar steel.
Unfortunately I can't sell these adapters, under the valid gun laws in my country it's not clear if one needs a licences to buy them. And I'm certainly not the one who will find out in judical trial.
Interesting enough it is not illegal to make them by yourself at least where I live. Who am I to ask for some sense in laws.
If you can't make them yourself, there are always small machineshops who will make them for you for a fee. All they need is a scetch and the exact measurements. Without the hammerpiece it's a hardguess for
them what the adapters are for.
I'm to the west of your location if you live in Germany and am very font at al the ersatzteilen :cool: Next month i will be at the Kassel messe and will watch some of these revolvers.
This is possible but difficult using a and drill, as there is only JUST room for the blank. The central rod from the cartridge can be suitably butchered to form a striker.
There is a lucky individual who has access to a supply of obsolete .32 blanks, with the rear plug removed these are a near perfect fit inside the cartridge.
PLEASE NOTE that any such bodging of the brass cartridges while it may work and be very entertaining is not safe. tomu's method is safe however especially if used in one of the wheirauch guns.
I bought a brand new Brocock ME38 magnum .22 for a couple of weeks and this is what I've made during christmas. This cartridge is easily loaded with a .22lr shot. I haven't seen any signs of high pressure etc. It
really works perfect. Here are som pics of what I'm talking about:
I also made some drawings with correct measures for you guys to work with. (PDF-file ~6Mb)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TI1LMU5S
Great!
Did you make them up yourself or did you get a machine shop to do it for you?
either way, it looks great.
There's a company in the USA that makes cartridges powered by primers, for use in centrefire guns. They also supply a .177 barrel to install in said guns. I am in the process of having some cartridges custom
made for a brocock, using the 209 primer. I will report how well they work, although some people who have used 209 primers report 10ft/lb of energy, a 50% increase from air.
Osis, you made a brilliant invention; however, a .22 short bullet is 0.223, as compared to regular airgun pellets which are .220. Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel?
I'm not osis or connected with him/her but the .22 slugs from rimfire rounds are a pretty soft lead compound, barrel damage is minimal.
Section 5 (where non-grandfathered Brococks are) is a letter from the Secretary of State, and allows ownership of real pistols, machineguns, rocket launchers, etc. I've heard that there are 7 people with these for
pistols in the entire country. Even gun shops can't have them! Oh, and expanding bullets live there too, along with AP and explosive and incendiary rounds.
Sorry but you can't 'grandfather' Brococks - they're all S.5 - it's just that owners that had them were allowed to declare them by the date Part 5 of the Antisocial Behaviour Act (2003) came into effect and have
them put on an FAC (the police could not refuse an FAC for this purpose for lack of 'good reason'). (Other S.5 weapons also go on FAC if you're not an RFD - the dfference is the Chief of Police cannot refuse you an
FAC if the Home Secretary has granted you the S.5 authorisation). If you 'discovered' you had a self contained air cartridge system gun (even a lever action rifle or a Saxby & Palmer No4) you would have to hand it
in.
Here's the section of the Antisocial Behaviour Act (2003) under which sales and transfers of Brococks were 'banned'.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030038_en_6#pt5-l1g39
Osis, you made a brilliant invention; however, a .22 short bullet is 0.223, as compared to regular airgun pellets which are .220. Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel?
I thought .22S/L/LR bullets were .221" - hence their inaccuracy in blowback adapters like the M261 for AR15/M16 type rifles chambered for .224" bullets? Strangely enough early .22 Hornets took true .223 bullets
(which are still available) although later/current ones are .224.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Anyone have experience in de-limiting Canadian hi-cap magazines?
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View Full Version : Anyone have experience in de-limiting Canadian hi-cap magazines?
I'd also like to be able to modify some magazines for the vz 58 that I'm going to pick up soon, the 5 round magazine really sucks. It should be a 30 round magazine.
Anyone know how to remove the limiter in the mags without destroying the magazine, and allowing it to be used to full capacity?
As for the other mags there should be a pin welded in the mags along a corner, just open up the mag, find the pin and find a way to pry it/ grind it off.
Anyways if you opened up the mags you would have seen what I am talking about. It's not hard to spot just a piece of metal that stops the mag from going further down than
the 5 round mark. (atleast it should be, thats how they block the SKS 10 round mags)
Obviously modifying a mag can get you thrown into jail so before you do that ask yourself if it would just be better to buy more 5 round ones... but since you probably don't
have the right kind of licene for that rifle anyways I guess you arn't worried about mag restriction. So have fun...
Are you sure it's as simple as you decribe? I heard somewhere that they not only put a pin through the mags but cut some of the spring in the mag so it won't handle that
many rounds.. Not sure about that though.
High capacity clips sold in Canada vary in design the one that I am familiar with is a permanent pinned clip, and have had a block of steel riveted or tack welded into the inside
of the magazine. This can be filed out or grind, drill, dremel or use a hack saw blade to remove this pesky block of steal. This is the type of clip that I am familiar with but
there are a number of ways of limiting the amount of ammo a clip can hold depending on the company you obtain your clip from. When modifying a clip I do believe you will
have to modify the spring as well. So a new spring will have to be fabricated or ordered from a manufacture.
Another option at getting a high capacity clip with out being limited; is if you know someone who works in a Army Surplus store, they usually have connections and can get
what you want under the table. They usually don't deal with people they don't know, as it is risky to them.
My friends dad has a 30 round banana clip for his .22 semi auto, which he obtained through a Army Surplus Store in Canada and it is an awesome gopher shooting clip; you
can shoot up dust trails behind a gopher as it running away
When your out in the field or in the bush the chance of getting caught with a un-restricted clip are slim to none. Just don't give the porkers any reason to search your house.
Do a search on Google.ca and search Canada only, for .45 High capacity clips I'm sure you will come up with many manufactures and they will specify how the clip is made on
their web site on if they don't and you really want to find out you could E-Mail them and ask how their clips are limited.
Personally throwing good money away for marginal magazine capacity isn't worth it. If you need 13 rounds of .45 ACP, you're probably in over your head. I wouldn't
recommend it, not to mention liberal courts love to fry people for doing things like that as opposed to actual criminals. Just saying, are 3 rounds worth it?
"Actually the rifle can be bought with your basic firearms license."
Wrong.
These guns are Restricted in Canada, but not banned. Meaning any one with a "RESTRICTED LICENCE", who can legally own handguns and other restricted gun may purchase
one.
So just having a basic fire arms license will not allow you to obtain this type of firearm or handgun for that matter. Although getting a "Restricted License" isn't too hard at all. If
I remember correctly it's a weekend class, or you can opt to take the test without the course (In class time). :D
I took the weekend course some time back.....You might want to talk to your dealer that you are planning on obtaining your Rifle & Hand gun from, and ask him about this as
I'm 99.9% sure that every where in Canada is the same, and they are concidered "Restricted Guns".
The VZ-58S carbine that is imported in to Canada is not the military issue ones sold else where, each one is made to abide by gun laws here, meaning they are a
watered down civilian legal version incorporating a purpose built semi-automatic ONLY receiver!
This carbine is produced by the original manufacturer and is identical to its brother the original military issue VZ-58 in every detail with the sole exception being use of a special
semi-auto receiver which cannot accept full-auto fire control components.
So the one you are planning on buying is a VZ-58S Carbine, unless you are buying an illegally imported version, sold under the table or on the black market.
The usual cost of one of these "Civilian legal versions" VZ-58S run from $600-$700 new "Canadian dollars".
Making modifications to the magazines or firing mechanisims is of course illegal, but exactly how is anyone going to know about those changes?
Also, FWIW, modifying guns to fire full auto is in my opinion, useless. Full auto is a big waste of ammunition, you can fire nearly as fast with a semi auto just by tapping the
trigger numerous times. And it's much more accurate that way. The purpose of having 30 round magazines is one of convenience and saved time.
The military issue VZ-58 carbine is a definite departure from the norm in both historical terms and with regards to the 'semi-auto only' version we have introduced to the
Canadian market. Originally developed in Czechoslovakia during the 1950's, the Samopal VZ-58 was adopted by that country in 1958. This is no small accomplishment given
most other Warsaw Pact countries were 'persuaded' by the U.S.S.R. to manufacture Kalashnikov AK-47 rifles rather than use their own designs. That the light, well-balanced
VZ-58 carbine remains the front-line infantry rifle of the Czech Republic almost 50 years after it was adopted is further proof of its excellent ergonomics and reliability.
Now, thanks to Marstar Canada, a civilian legal version incorporating a purpose built semi-automatic only receiver has been imported for the C anadian market! Our VZ-
58S carbine is produced by the original manufacturer and is identical to the original military issue VZ-58 in every detail with the sole exception being use of a special semi-auto
receiver which cannot accept full-auto fire control components.
Each carbine incorporates new and arsenal refinished milspec components and is individually inspected, test-fired, and certified by the Czech Proof House prior to our importing
them. As this rifle is not a Kalashnikov (AK-47) variant it is not prohibited. The VZ-58 (VZ-58S) features the original military length 390mm chrome-lined barrel (restricted,
meaning anyone licensed to own handguns may purchase one). The following accessories are included:
Taken from:
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm
Everyone that I go shooting with also tells me that these guns are considered "Restricted Firearms" as well. One of the guys is the president of the local gun club, who really
dose know his stuff. Maybe something changed and they were just recently taken off the Restricted list.... It's possible. :confused:
I'll search the net later tonight and see what I can dig up. I'll also make a few call to some gun dealer and other places here in my province and see what I am told. I'm also in
the process of writing a E-Mail to the company I'll post Both E-mails when I have confirmation.
Anyways, the more I read about this gun the more I'm starting to like it, we'll see maybe I'll have to get myself a early B-day present. ;) Naw I'm still paying of my deer gun I
got last year :rolleyes:
Cheers
http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/faq/default_e.asp
features the original military length 390mm chrome-lined barrel (restricted, meaning anyone licensed to own handguns may purchase one).
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-VZ-58/VZ-58S.shtm
So there it is, this gun is concidered a Restricted Firearm in Canada. Also some guns are even more restricted in the provincial level, so this is just the basic's for Canada...Some
Provinces are even more harsh.
These Regulations came into force on December 1, 1998, so if you were inquirig about this gun before this date, maybe that is why you were told this firearm could be
purchesed with your FAC Licence which classed fire arms into 2 class. As of December 1 1998, Fire Arms were devided into 3 classes (Non-Restricted, Restricted & Prohibited)
On another note about how Hi Cap magazines are limited: This should give you an idea of how the magazine in question is made and that way you can plan how you intend to
modify it. After reading this and other related material, some magazines will be almost imposible to modify with out destroying the Mag.
A large-capacity magazine is not prohibited if it has been permanently altered so that it cannot hold more than the number of cartridges allowed by law. Methods accepted by
law here in Canada include:
In the case of a magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion & attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of aluminum or steel (as the
case may be)
may be welded, brazing or another similar method.
In the case of a magazin with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum the attachment plug, sleeve, rod etc that is similar to that of the material of the
magazine casing, may be welded, brazing or other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue.
Have you concidered making your own magazine this might be an easier way to go about getting the extra 3 shots you desire.
As for the extra 3 rounds in the mag, forget about it. That's the kind of thing that bites you in the ass for no reason. I can't see a benefit there, YMMV. However, the 5 up to 30
round conversion, that's probably worth doing. I'd leave it stashed in a baggie under a rock where you shoot, though, and would never take it home, just in case. Losing your
license for a trivial infraction would be a bitch.
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Dank$taVegas July 4th, 2006, 12:09 AM
There is no arguing going on, we are trying to figure out if this gun is Restricted or not… So far all the information I have found and posted says this gun is Classified as a
Restricted fire arm, I never said it was banned either, you need a special license to own one. The license is very easy to get as well. The reason why this gun is Restricted is
due to the barrel length, as that is what all the information I have gathered says.
If however my information I gathered (From a government site, and one of the biggest Importers of this gun into Canada, and other reliable sources I have talked to) are
wrong, I would like to know. So if you could post something that will say other, I'm all ears and willing to admit I was wrong, and all the other sources I have gathered info
from were wrong too, then they should be contacted to make corrections on their sites since they are spreading miss-leading information to the public.
.
I'm sorry if it comes off like I'm arguing, I'm just trying to find and post correct information in the forums. As that is one thing that had drawn me here, all the knowledgeable
people, and 99.9% of the information is correct (Unlike most other places on the internet).
I have gotten around to calling today "The Canada Firearms Centre (CAFC)" which is run from a branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as Monday was a holiday, and
inquired about the Samopal VZ-58S, and they confirmed that this gun in question is classified as a "Restricted Gun" due to the fact that the barrel is shorter than 470 mm. And
in order to purchase this rifle in question you will need to have a "Restricted License".
Anyone would like to inquire about this for them self can Call 1 800 731-4000 or visit the Canada Firearms Center's web site at www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca. The number is a toll free
call.
I'll leave it at this, since all my questions and doubts have been answered with that simple phone call.
Simply slide your mag base off and install the extended one. This works for the para ordance and norinco hi-cap mags. Talk to any IPSC shooter in your club and find the
nearest accesory dealer.
Any weapon that was originally full auto but converted to semi, can fall into restricted or prohibited, because they were originally full auto. and I believe there is something in
there that says "ak-47 and their varients".
It wouldn't even surprise me if they listed it as a prohibited weapon because it 'looks dangerous'
The 1928 thompson for example is prohibited even though it was built only as a semi automatic. and just to tell you about those people incharge, a thompson according to
them is "too powerful" to shoot in a shooting range (indoor pistol/ small rifle) even though you can fire any pistol you want. Its like saying a sten is too powerfull to shoot
indoors.
I don't know about now how they have changed it since harper has been in charge though, so maybe it is different now.
I can confirm that this dealer "Wolverine Supplies" Imports both versions of this said gun the Restricted VZ-58S "Restricted Version" with the 390mm barrel and a "Non
Restricted Version" CZ 585 with the 482 mm.
This is a good example of why it is critical to provide proper details about anything talked about on the forums. For when you are referring to the VZ-58S you are talking about
a Restricted gun, and all the information I found pointed to this, had you said you were planning on getting the CZ 585 the information would have pointed to a Non Restricted
gun. As NBK2000 points out in his riddles all the time, the changing of a letter number or anything can make a big difference on the topic.
Thank you for clearing this up charger and for providing the name of the dealer.
This company (Wolverine Supplies) might be a good place for you gollum to ask and find out information about Hi-Cap magazines, since on their web site they have a few for
sale, and after getting off the phone with the owner he seems like a really nice guy, who went well out of his way to help answer all my question I had. So I'm sure he would
be more than happy to give you a run down of how Hi-Cap Magazines that he sell are limited. Just don't tell him you plans.
Non-restricted version:
http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/default.asp?Pg=8&do=3&mcid=1&scid=12&pid=43
Restricted version:
http://www.marstar.ca/rifles.htm
I hear they are quite nice. I would consider one good for lugging around in the bush. My first choice for a military serious gun would be a Garand, however. For an extra $100
dollars or so more than the Wolverine Supply version, that's the general asking price for a Garand. My big bro has a Dane and a nice Canuck T-26 *referring to the barrel,
which is 19 inches. Also notice Marstar is selling the parts-made-in-Vietnam, assembled-in-the-warehouse-district-in-Australia #4 knockoffs. I would not buy one as they are
apparently made by the Asian mafia. As an aside, you can get all the standard capacity 25-50 round magazines for the Ruger 10/22, it's just too bad such a magazine is not
offered for the 10/22 Magnum, if so, I suspect that would be a more popular gun up here, although the ammo price would put that in check, too, as we all know .22 Magnum
ammo is expensive.
As for 'de-limiting'(?) I would not touch that with a 10 foot pole. If you need more rounds, get a pouch made up with stripper clips with 5 rounds in each. I think you may be
able to get them from one or other of the above vendors. The Cz is set up for stripper clips, unless you want to put a scope and a half dozen :rolleyes: Picatinny rails on it.
The only real issue will be getting springs. Instead of fabrication you might want to purchase some full size springs and have someone mail them to you from the US as
"replacement car part" etc. That might since I doubt Canada keeps a record of what the hell a AK spring looks like through a X-ray machine. As long as the bodies and
followers aren't sent I think you will be set.
As for the extra rounds in the pistol see above. If for some reason it is a 1911 you could probably send the base plates the same way, but you will need the springs as well. I
haven't really meet anyone who believes anything over 10 rounds is a good idea in a 1911. They apparently don't function as well, feed properly, and I am not even sure any
good companies like wilson, Chip McCormick(SP) carry them. I could be wrong, but all the 1911 nuts really look down on anything above 10 rounds.
Now I am going to bed with my Walther and 1911 in this fine state that allows me to own them without being anally probed over a stupid round count. I mean jesus if you
have 3 more rounds you might actually be able to hit someone because the first 10 are warning shots right? Good luck.
My friends dad has a 30 round banana clip for his .22 semi auto, which he obtained through a Army Surplus Store in Canada and it is an awesome gopher shooting clip; you
can shoot up dust trails behind a gopher as it running away
.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > .30 caliber Homebrew SMG
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View Full Version : .30 caliber Homebrew SMG
I've studied Luty's work and I really like his ideas. Very simple. I wanted my SMG to operate in a similar manner, be a larger caliber, but use existing gun parts that were
readily available to me out of my parts reserves or fairly common.
I wanted the weapon to fire a decent round, something with more power than a .380 or .32 ACP. I decided on 7.63 Mauser, which is almost if not identical to 7.62 Tokarev. I
have literally thousansd of empty cases of 7.63 Mauser so ammo was not going to be a problem. This is what I came up with:
'http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/933/theprojectpj4.jpg'
I had a beat to hell M1 Carbine stock and surplus barrel left from restoring an old M1, so I thought that those would be useful. I had my local gunsmith to cut the chamber on
the M1 barrel to accomodate the 7.63 Mauser round.
The reciever is made of 1.75" outside diameter steel pipe with threads cut to fit that of the barrel. I also had to weld the gas port on the M1 barrel closed. I had to use a lathe
on some of the bolt, but for the most part is hand made. The extractor is an extra Mauser Broomhandle C96 fitted onto the bolt. The charging handle is from an old .22. The
trigger assembly is a hodge-podge of Sten/PPSH-41. It's pretty much a slightly scaled version of Luty's. The spings are all from a Sten Mark III.
The magazine is made from two aftermarket M1 Carbine mags welded, sanded, and blued. One M1 mag would have given me only 11 rounds since the 7.63 is larger in
diameter than .30 carbine. I had to make and insert to fit in the magazine to keep the rounds in place since 7.63 Mauser is a bit shorter than original .30 carbine round. The
max magazine capacity is 24 rounds.
'http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4861/theproject2mx1.jpg'
This is a top view of the magazine with ammunition. You can see at the top of the magazine where I made the insert and modified the follower to accomodate the shorter 7.63
round.
I have shot two magazines through it and it only jammed once, and that was on the fourteenth round of the second magazine. I plan to add some sort of optics eventually.
I will apologize for the quality of the pictures. I went out and bought a cheap ass Concord 2.0 megapixel camera just to take pictures (it was all I could afford!). As for a film of
the weapon being fired... that won't happen unless I can find someone with a capable camera, but if I do, I'll post a video.
I plan on making a real "Luty" model SMG in the next three months, but I thought I'd knock this project out of the way. I hope you enjoyed it and feel free to ask questions.
Thanks.
You should look at an ultimak scout to top off the M1 Carbine barrel. These mount nicely and mean you can get rid of the top wood from your stock.Check here for more info
'http://www.ultimak.com/m6.htm'
'http://www.ultimak.com/gallery/30M1AimpointChoate.jpg
I have one here with an Aim Point sight and torch, with the compulsory threaded barrel.
'http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2233/carbinemr5.jpg
'http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6521/threadgr1.jpg
That stock I have on there is crap. You can see in the picture where I had to repair a chunk of wood the right side with a slice of maple wood and epoxy. The previous owner
broke the stock while whacking at a dog that was attacking him. Dunno why he didn't shoot it. I'd really like to get a nice synthetic for this thing. Or perhaps a vertical foregrip
of some sort. I know that would help with accuracy.
The 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev is a great round, and so is .30 carbine. I think they were the fastest round in the world until .357 Magnum came out. However, I have to be
careful about shooting the two calibers in the SMG. Surplus Tokarev rounds are much hotter than Mauser. I think it could handle it, but I don't wanna take a chance of screwing
it up. I worked too hard on it.
For a long time both rounds carried some dogmatic hate from most people, I have heard of the .30 Carbine being reffered to as 'the poor man's 300 whisper' but alas when
your onto a good thing run with it. I am a great fan of the above calibers. I think the 30 in particular is a good tinkerer of a cartidge and a great wifes gun (I know mine
complains at the "recoil" from a mini-14....
I'd really like to get a nice synthetic for this thing. Or perhaps a vertical foregrip of some sort. I know that would help with accuracy
.
I have only had experiance with the ramline synthetic stock, but I would like one of those folders from ultimak. As you can see in the pics of my carbine with the Aimpoint I
have the capability to mount a fore-grip but instead have a remote torch mounted ( spose I could do both .) I simply got a length of rail and milled it into the wood, epoxied in
some knurled brass nuts and tightened it. You can't use a lazer on the set up as you don't retain zero, but a torch and fore-grip work well.
Keep us updated~!
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Scratch built AR15 receiver
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http://www.geocities.com/elmgrove1765/project6/project6.html
After assembly and before live firing, I manually dry cycled the firearm and doubled checked that the safety, disconnector function, trigger, and magazine catch worked.
Everything checked out OK.
I took it to the range and fired 60 shots. No major problems! I had 2 failures to go into battery - had to push slightly on the forward assist.
I'll keep shooting it some more to break it in, but other than that, I am very pleased with the scratchbuilt receiver... well on to the next project!
You are a braver engineer then I am. I know the best of AR's have had issues. Just a suggestion but piston driven conversion kits are being sold online for 399-4XX. You could
get one and that MAY solve some issues.
I really want to see a report when you hit the 2000+ range.
POF makes a great piston upper, but the price is outrageous I feel. Maybe someone could design an easy home-built alternative. An AR-15 that doesn't shit were it eats would
be great, especially if it was cost-effective.
btw, am I the only one that is a little creeped out by festergrump uploading a pdf on butchering human carcasses???
LOL----I downloaded it anyway!
It's not "that" finicky. If you are getting out-of-battery problems with a homebuilt AR, look at your ammo (Wolf tends to be low-powered and "sticky") the alignment of your
gas-block. (I chamfer the hole in the barrel to make it easier to align, and make sure your gas key is properly installed and staked in the BCG.
The lower receiver in the AR is pretty non-critical. You can have all sorts of slop, machining-wise and still have a functional and accurate weapon.
Cheap ammo, yes, but only use MIL-SPEC brass cased ammo for a war load.
BTW, Tdog49... You gotta do something with them. You can't be a bad boy yardie and just CREATE the bodies, now can you... and I don't happen to have a pig farm. :p :D
I have uploaded a new folder of "how-to" info (starting with ar-15 stuff) onto the ftp. I think that this is new stuff that was not already on the ftp. I went through directories
until my eyes bled and didn't see any duplicates but I am a welder so my eyes aren't worth much....
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where to look:
folder:UPLOAD
folder:tdog49
folder:Ar-15
Yeah they are floating all over the net. I know several guys make there own weapons from blanks, etc. If I can find my old stuff I will post it.
I got all hot and bothered when you mentioned CAD files... .PDF files are a dime a dozen and won't do it justice, at least for me. ACAD is the only way to go. Many thanks for
the link, though, Chemdude.
I know SolidWorks is a pain. I use to have a copy on my machine, but dumped it since I needed the space.
http://www.modelpress.com/igs-viewer.htm
If it doesn't work type "igs file viewer" in google. It has more listings.
Good luck.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > beretta 92 full auto
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W hy convert it? W ouldn't your time be better spent on some oth er project?
If you feel you must convert a handgun to full-auto, you should at least add an im provise d stock to the weapon. It shouldn't
be too difficult to m a k e a n d m ight look something like the stock for the R ussian Stechkin APS m achine pistol:
http://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Stechkin_APS
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Production of a rotary drum magazine
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View Full Version : Production of a rotary drum magazine
In the image the Red object is the follower, the Blue coil is the main spring
The Copper colored circles are shells, the main problem is that some shells will stay in the verticle section of the clip.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/DeathBlade556/clip.gif
It'd be nice if it worked, though. In Canada, we have magazine restrictions but not on rimfire rifles, so hicap rimfire mags are in high demand.
Also, what you describe is a magazine, not a clip. A magazine feeds ammunition into the chamber. A clip is used to load a magazine. The En bloc clip of the M1 Garand is a
good example. Generally, if it has a spring, it's a magazine. If it doesn't, it's a clip.
Besides even if you dont want to go plastic the internals of the magazine might give you some ideas to work from.
The problem with drum mags is that reloading them is a drag too, unless they're like the chinese AK drum, which pops open so you can just drop in the ammo, not feed it in
one-round-at-a-time.
And as for fabbing one I was doing some math and I can use a strip of 1/16th inch steel strip and Tig it in a spiral to a disk of 1/8th" and I can use a .22 shells as spacers as
I'm welding it. I think the clock spring might be too weak, but I have the spring from the pullstart from a weed trimmer so that should be stronger. I'll post picture of the
progress as I get to fabricating it.
It is interesting to note the almost textbook process by which "bad" things are removed. As with our beloved books, it seems AK's and other assault rifles (even mags/drums)
are well on their way to becoming unaffordable and or simply "out of stock". But that does not seem to have stopped any of us from learning from each other and improvising.
I believe the same can be said for creative souls like DeathBlade. I'm sure improvising a nice drum can't be much harder than the ultra scientific mixtures and calculations you
people seem to casually recite off hand with ease. :confused: Very interesting topic!
Loading those mags without the loader IS a pain in the ass. (I have 25rd stick mags.)
Prepare for a lot of work, and several fabrications, then you may get it to work.........or simply build some extended clip mags out of existing ones.
The usual solution to this is to have the tower (the straight part) come off the tangentially instead, like the opening on a snail shell. That way the cartridges don't HAVE to
change direction.
Also, if you are just intending to use the perimeter of the mag, you could make the drum smaller and fabricate a fairly powerful spring out of music wire, and house the spring
internally as it would only need to function on a constant radius.
You stomp on every firearm enthusiast who resides here's nuts every time you refer to a magazine as a clip. This forum (and all forums under the "roof" of Roguesci.org)
demand attention to detail, terminology, grammar, spelling, etc.
We demand people to learn from their mistakes here. You've made the mistake once already in this thread, just posts ago. Learn the difference between CLIP and MAGAZINE
and commit it to memory, pretty fucking please.
On topic, I think the problem you are having is with the spring binding inside the magazine housing if you've already gotten 19 to load.
Now, did the 19 you loaded "dry-cycle" through the weapon it was intended for, or did they bind up upon firing? Did any of the rounds load past the elbow joint in the
magazine?
You can only expect answers as detailed as the input you provide... pics (real ones, from this point on... you promised) would help since we can't be there to witness the faults
of your design ourselves...
And I don't know if you've ever watched Mythbusters on Discovery channel, they did a test with .22lr used as a fuse in a pickup truck. Although it might hurt when they
explode, the bullets don't penetrate soft tissue. Without the barrel a .22 lr loses a lot of force.
As for that hard transition from round cylinder to vertical, just have it transition using a longer slope ( if you get my meaning, just trying to put thought pictures into words, if
this is even possible........... :) )
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > defender blankfirer
single shot .22 project
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http://i139.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / q 2 9 4 / a k a z z 6 9 / D S C 0 0 0 7 8 - 1 . j p g
Obviously there are m easures in place to stop people doing this like a solid barrel and blocked cylinders:
http://i139.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / q 2 9 4 / a k a z z 6 9 / D S C 0 0 0 7 9 . j p g
So I removed the chamber cylinders and with the aid of my rusty drem el rem oved the barrel and the upper fram e rail
(pictured):
http://i139.p h o t o b u c k e t . c o m / a l b u m s / q 2 9 4 / a k a z z 6 9 / D S C 0 0 0 8 1 - 1 . j p g
I then cut 3.5ins from an old .22 air rifle barrel as a substitute a nd drilled out a cham ber for the round to sit in and a sm all
slot to aid extraction
The weapon has been test fired in a vice as it is not welded together yet on testing the we apon was loaded with an air rifle
pellet and a .22 blank. Tests showed the pellet consistently being put though both sides of alum in ium bin and roug hly 8-10
m m into the wall behind.
Better pictures and te st footage will follow as I progress further with the project apologies for the poor typing skills i am
learning to type witho ut the m ovem ent of m y left hand.
W hy did you have to detach the barrel and upp er frame with the dremel? I've never seen a replica up close ... Could you
perhaps use a drill press to re vitalize the barrel and cylinders? :confused:
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Jaco Home-Built Pistol
Plan s
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http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69679/Jaco_Derringer.pdf.html
I will be posting a couple of m ore plans by Jaco. One is a m ini-pistol (basically another derringer) and a larger fram e d s i n g l e
shot, Western Style p istol.
http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69679/Jaco_Derringer.pdf.html
I will be posting a couple of m ore plans by Jaco. One is a m ini-pistol (basically another derringer) and a larger fram e d s i n g l e
shot, Western Style p istol.
Jaco _Mini_Pistol
http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69685/Jaco_Mini_Pistol.pdf.html
--------------
Jaco _W estern_Style_Pistol
http://rapidshare.de/files/379 69688/Jaco_Western_Style_Pistol.pdf.html
Anything that appears to be altered to make them unworkable, a synthesis unm anageable, or related misinform ation should
b e p o s t e d a n d e x a m ined thoughtfully. IF, indeed we ha v e e n t e r e d a n a g e when such censorship is progressing; tha t's a very
serious thing . I would be very interested in any exam ples of an actual ce n s o r i n g a g e n d a .
I was rem e m bering the derringer prints. I pulled the W estern Pistol plans up today and scanned over them briefly. There was
a l s o a d e m e n s i o n f o r t h e m uzzle of the barrel, "The m uzzle end of the barrel is tapered starting at the middle of the barrel
leng th to a d ia. of 5/8 inch at the muzzle" not counting the crown. Also the demension for the flat on the barrel whe re it
m ounts to th e fram e. "Draw file a flat on barrel 5/16 inch wide by 2-1/2 inches long to fit part 26".
These plans, I think, were mo re of a g uideline for som e b o d y w i t h s o m e g u n s m ithing and/or machinist experience to interpret
as you see fit, than a s cut and dried dem ensional drawings. Good luck with your build, please keep us apprised as to your
progress.
If you are now seeing actual alterations in prod uction dim ensions or things of that nature, in works published within the last
year or so, this is extrem ely im portant. Several bills have past into law that deal with the dissem ination of information that
boarder on d irect censorship.
Anything that appears to be altered to make them unworkable, a synthesis unm anageable, or related misinform ation should
b e p o s t e d a n d e x a m ined thoughtfully. IF, indeed we ha v e e n t e r e d a n a g e when such censorship is progressing; tha t's a very
serious thing . I would be very interested in any exam ples of an actual ce n s o r i n g a g e n d a .
Thanks for posting th is, I agree with it. Do you have a web address for m o r e i n f o o n t h i s ? ? T h e s e p l a n s a r e 3 6 + y e a r s o l d , s o
would not apply here...
You will probably need to register to view the thread. Bu t that forum is worth registering.
Anyone know?
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > 80% firearms, winter project
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The project will be a government model 1911. The task seems to be pretty straightforward. The procedures as well as the pros and cons of the build will be documented and
posted.
Heres one link of many.
http://www.diyguns.com/
Even a light duty, cheapo Harbor Freight mill would be worth spending a couple hundred bucks on if any work on the X and Y planes are required. The tolerances of a cheap
mill are probably measured more along the lines of 1/100ths instead of 1/1000ths, though. Many light passes and a good set of calipers will be your friend, as always.
Quite right. Also the spindle of most Drill presses uses a Morse Taper, friction fit tool hoolder vs a a locked down(draw bar etc) holder in a mill and/or lathe. Could create a little
comotion when you put a little lateral pressure on the drill press and your razor sharp mill tool comes flying out of the spindle at a few hundred RPM and starts bouncing around
your work area. :eek:
If you absolutly don't want to buy a mill, I have some plans for converting a drill press to a very light duty mill. Still doesn't address the possibility of the mill flying out but will
save the bearings in your DP's quill. If I can find them I'll up load to Rapidshare and post a link.
Here are the plans I promised. The 1st two are for Drill Press modifications to use as a mill. The last one is an old plan for building a small, bench top horizonal mill that could
easily be modified into a vertical mill. Enjoy:D
BTW, does anyone know if the "mechtech" "pistol to rifle conversion kits" need the slide rails cut in the receiver? I'm guessing they probably do but I'd like to verify it.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.html
Be carefull, these little "Mini-Mills" are notorious for the column flexing(because of the thin wall tube used for the column) while under load, could easily ruin an expensive
project.:( They can be made more stable by either filling the tube with cement/concrete with reinforcement or by replacing the column with a thicker wall tube. There are a
couple of groups on Yahoo that deal with these. Well worth joining them before spending the money on the mill.
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > material choice for gun barrel, chamber
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I suppose I start out with single-shot, maybe to incorporate a magazine when it works. My caliber of choice is a .22 because those are easy to get black market, and seem to
have so little force that catastrophic mishap seems unlikely.
I have a limitless supply of 12mm steel bars and a few 16mm steel bars. Of course I can obtain every type of bar needed if these are not right.
And for the alternative backup plan. A single shot shotgun that can be fed with cartridges that I also will have to prepare by myself.
1. Which thickness for the barrel in this case versus the diameter of the shotgun shell?
*( I had to make a correction here due to a mistake inmy vocabulary, I mistook yield strength for tensile strength SORRY!)
To 1.:
I wouldn’t go below a wall thickness of 3mm better 5 mm for a .22 lr barrel but I wouldn’t want to exceed a wall thickness of 10 mm (e.g. in a simple rifle). Of course I‘m not
talking about high precision competition rifles here obviously.
To 2.:
The bullet diameter of a .22 lr is 5.68 mm so I would choose a 5.6 - 5.7 mm drill bit. And I would step drill my barrel, start with a 3 mm bit and after that drill with a 5 mm bit
next take a 5.5 mm bit and after that I would ream it to correct size. If you could ream it to the correct diameter take a 5.6 mm drill bit and measure the bore if it is anything
above 5.65 mm I would leave it below that finish with 5.7 mm bit.
To 2b:
The minimum length would be the cartridge length of 25 mm and you won’t gain much by exceeding a length of 450 mm.
To 4.:
Do you have the equipment to rifle a barrel? My guess is no. We are not talking about building a competition gun here. For a self defense pistol were the shooting distance is
mostly below 5 m I wouldn’t even think about to take the pain and rifle my own barrel.
To 5.:
Out of curiosity I once tried to reload fired .22 lr shells it is a real pain in the ***. The results are as unreliable as you can get it. I used scraped of amorces for the primer
pocket and black powder as a propellant.
The pressure of a normal 12 gauge shotgun shell is about 800 bar so it’s even lower than that of a .22 lr. As above I wouldn‘t want a wall below 3 mm better 5 mm.
*shakes head* Remember to write that it is theoretical, as you wouldn't want some government agency getting the wrong impression that you would think about doing
something illegal, or haram as you put it, bobo.
I agree unless you just absolutly need/want to have a rifled barrel. I haven't seen them in a while but use to you could buy barrel liners for replacing the bore of a shot out
barrel without having to purchase a new barrel.. Just drill the barrel out to the manufacturers spec. Apply something like a bearing adhesive to the insert and install. A little
trimming up and cleaning up and viola, new rifling. Would of course also work with a smooth bore you want to rifle.
May be he could get hold of an old air gun with a 5.5 mm barrel, he could make use of this. But personnely I would not want to waste it on my first try to make a gun.
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a3990918 April 15th, 2008, 10:03 PM
I have a hunch that he can't lay his hands on barrel liners or barrel blanks, so it's fruitless to discuss them.
Btw. barrel liners could be bought from Brownell's.
Yes, I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal, but are there restrictions on barrel liners?? Anybody?? I wouldn't think so since in and of themselves they do not
costitute a firearm component.
Also, there are several plans on the internet for building simple rifling machines.
Also, there are several plans on the internet for building simple rifling machines.
There are many countries where owning any component for a firearm that you don't have a licence for is illegal.
Looking at P Luty's info on expedient gun barrels made from seamless tubing, for .22 the tubing he suggests comes with a 2mm wall thickness.
In fact, for the far more powerful 9mm parabellum cartridge, the tubes he recommends have wall thicknesses of between 2.5mm and 3.0mm. I have not yet built his designs
so I cannot comment on safety or integrity.
At least there are some european countries where buying barrel as well as barrel liners requires a license.
Depending on the yield- and tensile strenght of the steel you could even go below a wall thickness of one millimeter for a .22 lr. But personally I wouldn't consider it as save
and sane especially when more than one shot should be fired from the gun.
Luty shrouds his improvised barrel with set rings (is this the right term for those rings?) to certain length.
My steel bars are scrap of unknown quality and as such I'd like to be safe rather than sorry with thickness. Of course, if inspection would reveal the signs of wear instead of a
sudden failure then I'd feel safer playing with it.
The prospect of government agents taking action against me seem slim since roguesci would need to reveal my IP and besides, I am not a terrorist just a civilian who hates the
strict firearm laws.
The main point is that I want to make a firearm that requires only an archaic lathe, some scrap steel and some toy parts to produce a lethal and concealable weapon. Indeed,
for academic purposes only (and publication on the internet) given the fact that I am perfectly allowed to obtain a firearm for sporting purposes and match grade ammo. Legal
means that police can show up at any time to check on your weapons, though, so for self-defence, legal firearms are worse than useless here (unless the whole country
collapses).
My plan is now to make the weapon with four main parts, pen-gun design. It should have a barrel and the part that locks with it (whatever its name is in english). These two
parts are connected by thread, so to load the gun it has to be screwed on. There is a thin tipped firing pin in it and a powerful spring behind it, unsprung just like the spring in a
ball-point. All these parts can be disassembled and assembled quickly. I guess I'd make a piece that is interchangeable with the barrel itself, but with a pencil tip in it, so that it
looks like some heavy duty mechanic pencil:D
A little tidbit of information: in the Netherlands, white powder is obtainable without the actual permit (of course an organic chemist can manufacture this and leave no trail at all
but to do this right takes a lot of skill). In Germany, alarm gun ammo can be obtained there that can be used as the cap (Luty describes this process in the expedient ammo
book) for caps. Professional reload materials are outside permit and OTC. Bullet tips are easily obtained. This means that clandestine ammo can be made from OTC parts, in a
quality exceeding the factory quality if one is an experienced reloader.. of course the scrap parts gun would be so inaccurate that the quality of ammo is a moot point.
If I go the way suggested by Tomu, I'd take a 5.7 drill bit. The 5.7 size makes it suitable for factory ammo. However, how realistic is it to manufacture our own ammo at
basically ANY caliber, including the unsuspicious 6.5mm caliber (aka, a design that can de-facto be used even if the barrel has to be custom-made by a third party without any
suspicions)?
And, very importantly, how much bigger should the inner diameter of the barrel be than the ammo (so to fit hmmm... a luger 9mm, take 9.1mm or somthing?)
Do=Di*(1+PF/Y)^0.5
Just remember to utilize the diameter of the case for Do at the breech end.
What is the easier way? Do just have just finished drilling and chambering the barrel but haven't it fixed to the gun frame so my guess is it would be easier to fix the relative
position.
If you make alterations in the ammo, you have do do this also in the future, which is a question of how often you would like to fire the gun.
Maybe do a little sketch (free hand) post it somewhere to be downloaded and describe your problem with the spring and the firing pin.
[edit: aw hell, that ascii drawing was absolutely garbled after submitting, removed it]
The bullet (not drawn) will be squeezed in between tightly if screwed on. A firing pin on a metal bar with a powerful spring behind it is triggered ball point style. This way, the
contraption is single shot, will not be reloading quickly but it is an object of minimal size consisting of four parts. The bullet will absolutely not fire its case backwards.
This is thus an utterly primitive thing, nothing to be proud of even once it succeeds but it'll serve for a useful lesson in improvising firearms and testing ammo.
Anyway why don't you use an offset firing pin? Just a steel rod where the firing pin is excentrically fitted to it. Or if the steel rod is too small a kind of fork with two prongs
fitted to the small steel rod.
Maybe this video of a crude made .22 single shot tilting breech pistol is of interest to you.
I was hypothesizing using a thin steel pipe 1mm rim strength, rifled, to being rolled on with several dozen, even couple of hundred times with finest mesh glass fiber one can
get. You heard correctly. They used this stuff in a shotgun barrel in the 70's, but people didn't trust it and it didn't sold althrough was referred being even many times stronger
than it's steely counterpart.
I have been planning of attempting making out such a construction when I have more time and equipment to complete it. I found airsoft barrels being readily capable of
discharging 22LR cartridge through plank without any breakage or expansion in the discharging end, but no one can speak of accuracy: the bullet can be dropped through due
to the wrong caliber ratio - .22 being 5.7mm and AS barrel 6mm min.
One could purchase 9mm innerdim. pipe and roll 300 layers fine mesh glass fibre in resin bath. In the chamber end one would roll twice as much, and even, at least partially,
use the 9mm shell or a model made of it forming the chamber.
Setharier, do you recall the make of the 1970's shotgun you mention that utilized the external glass fibre strengthener?
About the barrels and material once again. There has been discussion of less powerful, mostly .22cal barrels. How about making 308Win machine gun barrel? The material
choice seems absolutely more important on this. The cartridge produces 62,000 psi (430 MPa) or nearly 4300 bars of pressure.
"Rifle barrels are usually made from steel alloys called ordinance steel, nickel steel, chrome-molybdenum steel, or stainless steel, depending upon the requirements of the
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cartridge for which they are chambered."
I always tought stainless steel is very soft metal, but also heard that several rifle barrels are actually made out of it. Purchasing an 1" rod two feet long of stainless and then
lathing it does not sound impossible nor too expensive in any mean.
A barrel should be tough and soft, usually well below 30° on the HRC scale to withstand the high dynamic stresses. A 42CrMo4 steel is quite suitable for a highpower barrel.
Also most stainless steels will be ok.
Using the deactivated barrel unit would be laziest and easiest, but potentially dangerous way since the chamber has been drilled and tap pushed through it, severely weakening
it. Anyway it could be drilled/slammed away and reinforce-mass-welded and I bet it would withstand about enough to make the gun act repeatingly.
Your best choice is cut rifling somewhere on this forum is a threat about a video of Guy Lautards rifling machine. Making a rifling button for button rifling will be impossible
without a toolmakers knowledge/skill and workshop.
There are some deactivated barrels on the market where only the chamber is welded shut and some short distance forward the chamber are some holes drilled through. If cut
off the remainder of the barrel can be rechambered.
I have not been able to find a copy floating about the web. It'd be a good find if someone did.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_47/ai_79586229
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/making_rifle_barrel.htm
Material info
http://ammtiac.alionscience.com/pdf/AMPQ8_4ART08.pdf
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0774828
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Rebarreling the SKS
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Now the SKS is a very good rifle, sturdy and reasonably accurate. It's only major drawbacks are low mag capacity(easily remedied with a dremel and other tools to make it work with AK mags) and poor caliber.
7.62x39mm is not a very good performer. It's mediocre in all aspects. Some calibers(like 6.5 Grendel) seem like they'd be a much better thing for it. Most of the accuracy problems and limited range are from the
caliber the SKS uses. So why not replace the barrel with one of a better caliber and modify the mag slightly to accommodate the slightly longer rounds?
On the Yugo SKS, the barrel is threaded in and has flats on it for a wrench. There are companies out there that produce custom 6.5 Grendel barrels. Someone with a lathe could do the same thing from a barrel
blank. It's just a matter of copying the barrel, or possibly changing the length of it for better performance.
The magazine is just a hair too short, but that can be changed by either making a new one or bending the front part of it out(I think).
The spring in the gas system might need to be changed out as well, but I'm not sure.
E. g. the rim diameter of the 6.5 Grendel is smaller than that of the 7.62x39 and it's overall lenght is 1.7 mm longer.
I know about the overall length, that's why the mag needs to be modified. Aside from that, there is enough space in the stroke of the action to accommodate it. The only major issue is the bolt face.
I know there have been rebarrelings in 5.56, that required a new bolt(obviously) and those function pretty well.
How is the 7.62x39 "mediocre in all aspects"? It is currently the most widely used cartridge in the world, and has one of the better reputations of in use calibers. Are you basing your opinion off of it's effectiveness
against personal armor? Off of reliability as a man stopping round? It's reliability?
While I am all for finding a better round, not sure if I would be worried about the 7.62x39. i would be more interested in switching calibers if I was shooting a 5.56 or similar varmint type round.
The SKS also does not lend itself to a caliber change as readily as some other platforms. Have you thought of trying an AR-15 style rifle, or maybe going for an AK-74 style if you prefer that type of platform. Not
saying you can't re-caliber, but you need to take the position and size of the gas port into account on the SKS. You may end up having to machine several parts from scratch to get something like what you describe
to work.
The SKS does not lend itself as easily to caliber change as the AR platform, but I have a "thing" for it. It is one of the few rifles out there that "fits me". It's also cheap compared to the AR or even the AK(the days
of the 380$ AK are gone).
486 has a good idea though. If the pressures aren't too much for the system to handle, .50 Beowulf might be worth considering.
The purpose for such a project is to make the SKS better suited to modern use.
Unfortunately the cartridge rim of the 7.62x39 is 11.30 mm and the rim of the 6.5 Grendel is 11.20 mm. This might very well lead to extraction problems, especially with semiautomatic fire.
I don't have access to SKS right now, but you might get away with just using a modified extractor as if IIRC the bolt face itself is plane. It might be even as simple as soldering a steel shim to the curvature of the
extractor.
Anway the bolt of the SKS is a straightforward milling job so any good machinist with a mill can duplicate one.
As was mentioned before about the .50 beowulf, I did some looking up and it's rim is supposed to be compatible with both the 6.5 Grendel and the 7.62x39, so maybe it won't be as much of a problem for the 6.5 to
extract. It's something that would be worth seeing how good a grip it gets is.
Unfortunately I do not have a piece of 6.5 brass or I'd see right now.
Hate to disagree, but the 5.56 is not known as a manstopper round. That is why SOCOM is helped in the development of the 6.8 SPC and tried to get it approved. I happen to work with someone who just got back
from Iraq, and has also seen combat in Bosnia, and he said the M14 in 7.62x51 is making a dramatic comeback due to it's increased stopping power. When he got back from Iraq, he sold his AR-15 and bought a
Springfield M1A.
And with the AK-47 being the most widely used Assault rifle in the world (still) I don't believe that your assertion that only the Czech still use it is correct.
All the nations which employed the 7.62x39, aside from the Czech Republic(maybe Slovakia, but I doubt it) have switched to superior rounds like 5.45. Even China has a new round.
The AKM-47 is so popular because the Russkies made a ton of them and sold off most of what they had when they switched to the AKM-74. That means that there are a lot of guns out there which are cheap enough
for the dirt poor guerrillas of X country to purchase.
But let's not get into a caliber pissing match, because the 7.62x39 vs. 5.56x45 debate has been going on for decades and will go on until they no longer exist.
I agree, let's not get into a caliber pissing match. I happen to own rifles in both calibers (AR-15, SKS, and AK-47) and believe each to have it's own pros and cons. But my point is that you also need to provide
examples for statements when you make such broad statements as "mediocre in all aspects". Such overly broad statements have no place on a Science based board such as this without any supporting evidence.
How is it mediocre? Do people not die when they are shot with it? Is it notorious for jamming? Is it widely considered inaccurate? If it is mediocre because it is not the main cartridge in official use by it's country of
origin, does that also make the same true of the 30-06 and .308? If you would put forth some type of arguable facts, maybe you could support such a conclusion, but for now, you are just appearing uninformed.
Let's change the target of your scorn to something else for a moment. Let's say you had stated that you wanted to learn to make Semtex because C4 is mediocre in all aspects. I'm sure several members of this
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board would ask you what you based that conclusion on. Now, would I agree that each of the aforementioned explosives has it's own properties which would cause some to prefer one over the other? Of course. But
both will blow the shit out of something, so neither are ineffectual nor mediocre. If you would please list what about the 7.62 round causes it to be mediocre in your opinion, maybe I could see from what you are
basing your opinion.
And that's not the only problem with your original post. Let's take a look at the basic premise of your original post. You want to re-caliber a SKS. Why? It's current caliber is "mediocre" and "not a good performer".
So without more info, I have to speculate that the basis in your logic is flawed. The SKS is a 60+ year old design. It utilizes a tilt bolt locking design, which is not as secure as breach lug locking. You offer no
formula or postulates on what cartridge to use, or what the pressures the SKS design is capable of handling. I'm sure it would be "kewl" to mount an Abrams 120 mm main gun on a WWII era Sherman tank, but if
you don't understand the pressures and forces involved, you're going to end up destroying something other than the intended target. Same scenario here.
What is the pressure curve of the .50 Beowulf? While I do believe that the action of an SKS could handle that cartridge, what adjustments need to be made to the gas system? While it is possible to re-barrel or re-
caliber the Simonov design, parts are not in abundance. How much will it cost to do the work you are talking about? Would it be a better decision financially to make some other type of weapon for which the caliber
you want is already designed for? Would it be easier from an engineering standpoint to modify a different base weapon?
Most improvised weapons are made for low pressure calibers. If they call for high pressure calibers, they are normally some type of single shot design. The mathematics for semi-auto weapon systems are
complex. Of the equation E = 1/2mv2 for kinetic energy, only about 30% of the energy gets transfered to the actual bullet. Almost 20% of the energy gets transfered to gas pressure, with the rest going to heat
(case, barrel, gas, and bullet). And this total energy is not transfered in a flat line. Each caliber and powder generate their own energy curve. And those curves can change based on cartridge material and bullet
weight. And that is just some of the variables.
Just because the forum has added a firearms section doesn't mean that it's high standards are completely thrown out the window. Provide some basis for your arguments, some facts, or at least some arguable
conclusions. Most of your other posts do include such facts, plus some logical deductions. All I'm asking is that you do a little research and come up with some supportable reasons for your postulate. This is a
Science based forum (whether that be chemistry, mechanical, geopolitical, etc), after all.
As for dealing with chamber pressure, I was unable to find the max pressure of the .50, but for 6.5 it's 50,000 psi, which puts it very close to the 7.62x39. The maximum load pressure is 52,080. So it should be
more than able to handle the pressure given that most loads for the calibers are lower than that max.
Why do I feel that the 7.62x39 is mediocre? It does not fragment, expand or tumble(only FMJ will be considered in this example, because it's obvious what soft point and hollow point will do) while inside the body.
It does not create a large permanent or temporary cavity compared to other rounds. The round also tends to overpenetrate unless used with HP or SP. It's saving grace is that it feeds very well and extracts very
well due to it's case design. Yes, such a round can blow the shit out of someone. But other calibers can do it better(which is my premise for such a build).
Thank you. With that, I can at least see what you are basing your opinion off of. While I don't believe I necessarily agree with all of your conclusions on the various rounds, we can agree to disagree. Your thought
process is defined and will allow others to make informed judgments based off of the basis for your conclusion.
Your cost estimate appears to be in line with what a competent gunsmith or machinist would charge you, plus cost of materials, and doing some of the work yourself. I agree with your assessment that you are
approaching a low end AR-15 variant. It may be easier in the long run to just purchase a low end AR already in the caliber you want if you are willing to settle for a 5.56 or 6.8 SPC. The 6.5 Grendel or .50 Beowulf
may be cheaper to do yourself. From what I've seen, these calibers are rather expensive no matter which route you take.
One of the things that would be necessary is a modified mag. Right now I'm thinking of a modified tapco 20 rounder adapted to fit. It may be necessary to fabricate an entirely new magazine, but I'd avoid that if
possible. However, if it is necessary to do, it would be much better to make one of a design similar to that of the original mag. It's feeding system is very well suited to being self-contained and fixed in place but is
also very reliable. It would have to be slightly longer and deeper with a slightly different follower.
It might be possible to just bend the original mag, but that would give me less than ten rounds per.
This will all have to wait until I have the money to afford the build though.
Also for some sort of size comparison [maybe useful] 7.62x39 fits in AR mags, just only 5 rounds or so because of the extreme case taper, and I have heard of people getting .223 in AK mags.
Luckily the actual hole seems to be large enough to fit the rounds.
The M & D model DO NOT have the same receiver, yes it looks the same but it's NOT. The receiver walls of the M & D model are thicker to accommodate the AK Magazine. Butchered SKS receivers, even done by
a competent machinist wind up being VERY THIN especially in the front where the original SKS magazine tapers. And this is where the receiver cracks and I've seen two that have done so after being modified to
take AK mags. Granted I've only seen two SKS's modified like this but that pretty much follows the posts on other boards where this has been discussed and done.
As far as the FMJ Military 7.62x39 not being an effective round I have a few friends whose names are on a wall in Washington DC that would disagree with you if they were still alive. And when they took our M-14's
away and gave us M-16's mine lasted less than 2 weeks and I finished my tour with an SKS, which accounted for 14 of 17 confirmed kills, none with the M-16 that I know of.
Also don't forget gas operated semi-autos work on "Peak Gas Pressure" which is NOT the same as Muzzle Velocity, but has to do with the "speed" of the powder burn. So unless your magick bullet has the same
"burn" your going to be modifying the fixed gas system (unless your using a Yugo) to get the rifle to function properly without FTF or FTE problems, or battering the rifle apart with over pressure.
Either way, it's been tried before, it didn't work. But hey, good luck to you, maybe you'll be the lucky one.
The gas port has to be re-drilled anyways for the new barrel for 6.5, besides the gas port adjustment should be pretty easy.
Trevor, what nationality were the SKS's you've seen fail due to being butchered? The Yugo ones are already beefier than the regular ones, which is why I mentioned going with those in my first post. I also would
rather not have to modify the receiver, hence my being big on modifying or copying the original mag design.
Of the two I saw one was a Chinese Mil-Surp and the other was a Norinco, (Norinco's aren't Mil-Surp but they are Mil Spec). I've never read anyone trying to modify a Yugo as yet. Sorry I missed the part in you
post about using a Yugo, my mistake. I've never looked over a Yugo closely, mostly because I never cared for their un-chromed barrel and chamber and the funky grenade launcher on them.
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Sorry if I came off as wanting to start a pissing match on 7.62x39. It's just that there is so much BS put out about the round by people that have never used the round in combat. I have and know what it will do
within it's design parameters as a Military round coupled with a totally reliable weapon system like the SKS or AK-47.
The terminal ballistics were greatly improved by the Russians with the 8M1 - 8M3 "effect" bullet but came at the time 7.62x39 was being phased out and the 5.45 was being brought in service so it was never fielded
as a service round. Now it's only available in Silver Bear Ammo, if you can find it. I stashed away 5,000 rounds of it when it was $85 a 1,000 rnd case several years ago, now if it can be found it's well over $200 a
case. I haven't seen any for sale in a year or more. I have the feeling it's gone the way just as the Chinese steel core did, never to be seen again.
I can understand the want of a little more power in a carbine size action, but then I always look at it from a Military stand point. Cost of ammo, availability or if there is already a Military weapon that already
achieves the same thing. Which is probably why out of 15 or so weapons I own 10 or 12 are Military and the first ones I'd grab in an emergency. Each one is set up with web gear and a full combat load out of ammo
for those Just-in-Case times.
Sorry if I come off rough at times, I'm an old fart and pretty set in my ways and thinking at 60.
The Yugo guns are considerably beefed up compared to their Russian or Chinese counterparts. That's because Yugoslavian ammunition was hotter than other standard production ammo. The only AK mag fed
modified ones I've seen are Yugos(because they're the cheapest right now).
I haven't been able to find any of the 8M3 stuff, wish I could though. Sounds pretty good if extremely rare.
The primary desire for having the 6.5 would be to give the SKS more legs as well as more power. 6.5 Grendel out of a 20" barrel is good out a very long ways(I forget exactly how far, but out of a 24 it's good past
1000 yards). That coupled with a very good custom barrel would be able to turn the SKS into a modern battle rifle or possibly DM rifle. The SKS has potential for excellence, you have probably seen that yourself, it
just needs to have that fulfilled.
To my knowledge, there are few firearms out there in that caliber and those that are out there are expensive. Ammo cost for Wolf Gold(not the best, but still passable) isn't too much more than 7.62x39 per case.
Once I get into handloading, that will drop costs even more, especially considering that 6.5x39 can be formed from 7.62x39 brass cases.
Your project really piqued my interest and I spent a few hours checking out the 6.5mm Grendel on the web. While the project seems VERY doable in a Yugo SKS there does seem to be a couple problems in the
ammo department.
True 6.5mm Grendel is a straight walled case, while 7.62x39mm is a tapered wall case. And to reform 7.62x39mm into 6.5mm Grendel cases is quite a project as a bulge will form just below the shoulder of the 7.62x39mm
c ase when full length resized. While this can be dealt w it h by turning, its one more step added to the process. Plus the new formed case has to be fire formed as a final step and you still dont have a True 6.5mm Grendel case.
The 6.5mm Grendel takes a S m all Rifle Primer while the 7.62x39m m takes a Large Rifle Primer which does and will affect performance which seems to be the large rifle primer blowing powder and bullet down the bore before
the powder ignites. Why this happens w it h a straight walled case and not to a tapered w all case is beyond me.
So you have a choice to make before you chamber the new barrel. Either chamber it for 6.5mm Grendel or chamber it for 6.5x39m m . The 6.5x39m m is just a necked down 7.62x39m m case and since it s ju st necked down you
dont have the problems with full lengt h resizing and the subsequent bulge, turning and fire for ming in trying to go to a str aight w alled Grendel case. The 6.5x39m m suffers a little in the velocity department compared to the true
Grendel, but were talking less than 100fps out of a 24 barrel so I dont see it as a real problem.
If you decide to go the true Grendel way youre looking at buying cases from Alexander Arms or Lapua. Though the Lapua is considered a better case the price difference is about $28 per one hundred cases, AA is about $64 per
100 and Lapua runs about $92 per 100.
If it were me I think Id just suck up the 100fps velocity difference and go with the 6.5x39m m and neck down 7.62x39m m cases. I think youd have fewer problems in feeding; no change to the magazine, st ill feed it from str ipper
clips and cheap but tough Military cases to work from.
While youll never have a true MBR since youre not firing a full size military cartridge, I think youd have a kick ass DMR in a carbine size package with a good set of optics. Midway sells the Choate Weaver-Style Scope Mount for
the SKS (item #435-151) though youll have to dr ill and tap the r eceiver for it. But it appears t o be a rock solid steel mount that w ont int erfere w it h disassembly and cleaning from what I can see of it. Midway has it on sale right
now at $30 rather than the normal $38.99, so you may want to look int o it. With a set of quick change rings you could pop off the scope if it took a dump and be back to the original iron sights which you cant do with a scout
mount and a LER scope. Though this has disadvantages also.
The scope mount will kill the use of stripper clips for reload. Though you c ould turn the mount around so it off set to the left and retain feeding from stripper clips and add a cheek pad t o the stock. Same thing they did with the M-
1 Gar and M odel C sniper rifle and having the benefit of ret aining the use of t he Iron sights without removing the scope.
While I doubt youll get the 1.198 group at 600 yards the true Grendel gets with a modified semi-auto SKS. I dont see any reason you couldnt get say 3 MOA at 600 yards which should put you into Minute-of-Bad-Guy out to 900 -
1000 yards with 6.5x39m m . O ver all from the litt le investigation Ive done the project seems doable and kick ass if you stay in the 6.5x39m m and not try to go for a true 6.5mm Grendel package.
The change over to AK-47 mags would be dependent on if the Yugo can handle the cuts to the receiver wall without compromising the strength of the receiver. While this would eliminate the need to feed it from
stripper clips and an "off set" scope. It will also not allow you to get as close to the ground in the prone position with a 30 or 40 round mag sticking out the bottom of the rifle. Gain some, lose some so you have to
choose what you want and how you'll use the rifle to make the choice.
No matter what you choose please keep us updated on the project I'm very interested in how it turns out.
6.5x39 is definitely the way to go in the price area, I can't afford to feed something that is $92 a case but I should be able to afford to neck down 7.62 brass.
This is a long term project. It'll be a while before I save up enough to start the build. Should turn out well though.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > .22LR magazine DIY
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T h e A R - 7 ' s m ag isn't the best and is responsible for m ost of it's reliability problem s, But give it a shot anyway and see.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > vz.58 full auto
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++++++++++++++
Don't forget to capitalize the letter "I" when referring to yourself - The_Duke
VZ receivers can be bought (if you're willing to register it) but the price is much higher than that of an AKM reciever blank. (VZ
kits are still very cheap, however, and readily available).
One thing that I always thought was ra ther strange is th at the VZ is allowed in Canuckistan while the AKM is banned, though
they outwardly look very similar. :confused:
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > Simple revolver de sign
aka the "Manual Revolver"
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If one has a very good drill press the cylinder could be bored with it.
I recomm end studying JACO Designs, they have very sim ple trig ger system s.
And they cou l d b e a d a p t e d t o f i t o u r n e e d s .
Now that I have the thread started I'll draw som e prints.
If you are carefully in laying out the cylinder bo rings/cham bers this could be easily done with basic tools.
IIR C there were som e pictures of a hom e m a d e sim ple handturned revolver like this m a d e b y a r u s s i a n g u y s o m e where on the
web, unfortunately I can't find the link nor the photos on my PC.
Here is a plan from Paladin Press for a revolver-knife that is, I believe, basically the sam e as you are describing. The cylinder
is ro tated by hand after each shot and is of a single action design. Of course this could be m odified to a standard h a n d g u n
configuration .
No Pass:
I suppose so, but the idea was if your going to build a zip gun, then adapting a cap pistol would sim ply give you a repeating
weapon for a b o u t t h e s a m e a m ount of effort.
There are conversion cylinders for som e of the better cap & ball revolvers such as the Ruger Old Army. They're designed for
the "Cowboy" low power loads and they cost between $2 00 - $30 0. With the reputation of the R uger I'll bet it will take "full"
power loads without a hitch in .45LC.
Do cap and ball revolvers need a licence in the States? (If not that would be the way to go .)
P.S. It kind of goes without saying, if you already have one revo l v e r i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n t o u s e a s a m o d e l a n d t h e n e e d e d
m achine tools to duplicate parts... you can pum p o u t a s m any com p l e t e d r e v o l v e r s a s y o u d a r e . Y o u d o n ' t h a v e t o b e a n
engineer to duplicate what already works well.
The hardest part would be the cylinder IMHO, a nd if you have a m odel cylinder and a good rotary indexing attachm ent for your
drillpress, ha lf the battle is already won.
Designing a revolver com pletely from scratch is probably going to be m ostly a pain due to the correct throw of the hand to
rotate the cylinder into proper alignment with the barrel I should think, once you finish the cylinder. Lots of trial and error with
hand length there with much cussing to follow, I'd im a g i n e . W i t h a d e c e n t m o d e l t o m atch exactly O TOH, how could you go
wrong?
The Explosives and Weapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification > Arming The Masses
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The Israelis armed their people with machine guns manufactured with near-primitive technologies, not even having access to
full machine shops in many cases.
In the modern day, we've better technology and more available materials for such a task, making the effectiveness greater
and the cost lower.
What sort of firearm design would allow for a concealable, reliable, effective and hopefully more ergonomic modern Liberator?
Consider that the national military probably would not do something like this again, and so it would have to be a private
endeavor.
There are any number of inexpensive and more effective firearms than a cheap POS "liberator" type pistol. If you want to
have hand-out weapons, SKS's and Mosin Nagants, Mausers, etc. are inexpensive and more effective.
We dont need to arm the masses. The masses are alread armed.
We need people that will fight with the arms they already have.
In particular I'm considering a handgun-style armament, since that would be most useful in a personal-defense context. I'm,
unfortunately, too skeptical to believe that anything better can be hoped for. People won't want to fight a war.
To answer your question, I'd trust my life to a cheap handgun when facing someone armed before I'd trust my life to my bare
hands.
http://www.beemans.net/Austrian%20airguns.htm
Big bore air rifles can be pretty effective, especially since they have zero muzzle flash and a reduced report compared to
firearms. Those old Austrian air rifles could put about 600-800 fps into a ~.40 cal bullet, not bad considering it runs on air,
and it was invented 200 years ago.
Heres a reinvented version made by an Austrian bicycle maker during WW2 to fight then Nazi's.
http://www.beemans.net/images/RA5--Austrian-Partisan-Airg.jpg
Those San-Yang big bore hunting air rifles are pretty sick too, although quite expensive.
http://www.airgundepot.com/big-bore-article.html
And then theres www.fullyautomaticairgun.com, too bad thats only .22 cal. It gives you an idea what kind of things can be
done with CO2 though.
Another thing to look to for inspiration would be the new propane powered paint ball gun by Tippman. Would a "gun" that runs
on propane be considered a "firearm" or would it just be another "air gun". I think that's where the best idea's for a powerful
freedom fighting gun will be found. BUT BACK OFF, it's my idea.
One way or another, I think non-firearm weapons would offer great possibilities for a "liberator". Of course, theres just no
substitute for those of you that already own full auto assault rifles.
I'd have to agree with you on that statement. If I had to guess, less than 25% of the people who ARE armed would likely
never use them in warfare against an oppressive government, regardless of whether they put "MOLONE LABE" in their sigline or
not. :rolleyes:
Even Commyfornians are not totally disarmed yet, though, nor are those in the NE section of the USSA, yet. It's those who
have a hard time getting them legally that have a better appreciation for them, I think.
In the event that people will fight and have no gun with which to do so, IMHO the best thing to arm them with would be slam-
fire shotguns. The mass production capabilities are the best around since the weapon is so piss-poor simple to find parts for
on the scrounge and to put together in reliable working order: Two lengths of steel tubing (which one slides into another
freely), an endcap, a screw or nail as a firing pin, and whatever you can make a few pistol grips with. One man should be able
to make several dozens a day, honestly.
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Even old shotgun husks can be reloaded relatively easily if ammo even dries up (read: no longer allowed for civilians to
possess). "Strike-anywhere" match head primers, BP, paper wadding, and use whatever you like for shot (blunderbuss style).
One, in the event that whichever Marxist takes office in January decides to try to disarm people, I want to monkeywrench that
fucker into an ulcer-driven early grave. I'd be happy to stand in a tyrant's way.
Two, I'm a firm believer in the philosophy that an armed society is a polite society. I think the only way to be free is to be
well-armed - and I don't mean in the sense of the number of arms versus the number of people, but in terms of the
proliferation of arms. I'd like to see, as author L. Neil Smith puts it, "every man, woman, and responsible child" armed in
some way. If I can do my part in making it happen, I will truly feel like I contributed something of worth to society.
You can search out Lutys' improvised weapons and improvised ammo. It's here somewhere, because I downloaded it. Check
the rapidshare links thread.
There are plans for the Caselman Air machine gun here too. IIRC it uses .32 bullets.
It would be a very ambitious project though.
I look at it this way. Time is money. I'd personally rather buy a weapon than build one.
But having this info available is a Good Thing.
If I had to guess, less than 25% of the people who ARE armed would likely never use them in warfare against an oppressive
government,
???
I assume you mean < 25% would use them. OK, that is still a very large number.
I'd be thrilled if 10% showed up. In my opinion, even 1% could get the job done.
"An armed society is a polite society". I've held that same opinion for many, many years now. :) The thing is, it has to be
common knowledge that the society is well armed for this to work as well as it could, as in legally armed with a majority (or
unknown percentage) that be so armed always. What you seem to be talking about is a different matter altogether, what with
the Liberator pistol's origin and "standing in a tyrant's way" mentioned.
I offered the idea of the slam-fire shotgun because it meets the criteria presented in the OP. The same would pretty much
apply for just about any zipgun type contraption you could think of. Build the weapon around whatever ammo you might have
on hand, or alternatively, whatever you might take off the end recipient of such a weapon after he/she has been rendered
"safe". (dead).
Several copies of Zips, Pipes, and Pens are floating about the internet (and the FTP, IIRC). There's a pretty good source of
ideas, though you'll have to improvise just a bit. There are no plans in the book that I remember. But... you'll only need to
use what weapon you make once to acquire a better weapon and ammo, right? The choice of targets is probably more
important than most factors of the original weapon itself.
Look to prison as a good idea of how just people who are so "strictly forbidden" to have weapons make or obtain them, yet
have them they do. Prison is the most "safe" (:rolleyes:) society you'll ever see with absolute and total "control" over what the
population is allowed or disallowed. Yet every prison is literally riddled with firearms and other weapons. That's all the proof
anyone should need that making such things "illegal" does absolutely nothing to those that want or need them, for protection
or otherwise, though the antis continue with their insane ideas that banning something makes it vanish from the world forever.
I rest fairly well at night knowing that no matter what they do to us we will be able to counteract with some ingenuity and guts.
It's the latter many cannot seem to find no matter how hard they look these days...
On somewhat of an aside, preventative medicine would be in order here at this point, anyway. Buy what you can while you can
and continue to form ideas about what to do when you can't. BP revolvers ship right to your door in the USSA (as of now) and
there's no restriction on them whatsoever within the fedgov regulations. (local regs may differ legally, but having them shipped
isn't a problem). Same with any BP gun, inline rifle, rock-lock, percussion lock, etc.
Buy reloading supplies in abundance (ships to your door in the US) and brass or hulls, various chems and powders, etc. He
who is prepared is better off than he who hasn't even given the slightest thought towards a future without (which is pretty much
99% of the sheeple, I'm afraid).
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3287 October 20th, 2008, 05:18 AM
I'm certain that they are restricted in my locale.
That's another part of my curiosity. I can acquire rifles and shotguns, but as it stands, I can not acquire handguns.
Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle. Have the trigger
switch positioned like a firearm trigger. Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant, wadding and projectile like with muzzle
loader.
When trigger is pulled, the igniter ignites the propellant which does its job..It can also easily be made in a multi barrel config
for multiple shots.
Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle. Have the trigger
switch positioned like a firearm trigger. Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant, wadding and projectile like with muzzle
loader.
When trigger is pulled, the igniter ignites the propellant which does its job..It can also easily be made in a multi barrel config
for multiple shots.
Why "arming the masses" (the term "masses" reminds me on marxist pamphlets) would be neccesity to any goverment, when
mostly they are afraid of their own armed people, not their outer enemy ?
Today, metalworking industry in any country is so developed that some factories could easily produce cheap and simple SMGs
in great numbers in small time, to arm their "masses".
This can all be done with a milling machine In quick processes and very little cost for materials. This is basically how the Sten
was made. The version I am imagining is a longer recoil that will allow for a very small gun width because you don't have as
much issue with ejecting spent cartridges. A fair sized shop could make these without any trouble at all. They would be cheap
and could use the cheapest available ammunition.
A crate of these could be handed out to resistance groups that are fighting your enemy. A crate of cheap ammo would also be
handed out with the guns. 60 rounds per weapon is enough to do anything they hope to accomplish even with spray and pray
tactics.
[forgot to think about ammo. If the government were the one making the ammo, the bulk at which the ammo would be made
would put the costs at next to nothing. If arming a resistance movement were a private endeavour, one would simply need to
purchase in a quantity enough to put the unit cost very low. It would be as easy as calling a ammo manufacturer and asking
for a production run of however many crates of ammo. They would be willing to seeing as your order would be in the area of
say 200,000 - 300,000 rounds of ammunition (60rnds./arm, 200 arms to a crate) and you would want to supply at least 5000
resistance fighters. Not to mention self defence weapons for the families and transportation safety and whatnot.) But my
estimate only applies to a large war type senario without any sort of obvious complications.]
60 rounds per gun is a generous supply, considering the intended use. I believe the Liberator came w/something like 10
rounds.
Might not be spraying, but I know I'd be praying- in the case of the FP-45 you have a gun that has accuracy measured in feet,
no rifling, a ram-rod to eject the cases and a single-shot to boot...:(
I see this as a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon, IMO.
Great minds think alike. Stupidity is also found ed majoritum. Lets hope the first genertic proverb is true ;)
The idea of the Liberator pistol was not to arm a bunch of soldiers for a battlefield scenario. It was to give citizens something
concealable to use against their occupiers long after things had cooled down and the occupying army had grown complacent
with the ritual checking of proper papers, etc. It was to bring out of concealment at the right time to catch a soldier unaware, to
kill him at very close range, and to acquire the better weapons that he had on his person. No more.
It was actually a very glorified zipgun. Ten rounds were more than ample for this role, I think. Three would have been enough
with hopefully two to spare under the right circumstances.
The jews allegedly used even cruder implemented weapons to take REAL weapons off the German and Polish soldiers in
Warsaw. I believe that was the original intent of the Liberator pistol, and for that it's manufacture was superb, at least
compared to what a ragtag bunch who has no funding or machineshops working "legally" for any government could manage for
another country's hopeless peoples.
That said, three rounds for a zipgun or slam-fire shotty sounds mighty impressive for such a bunch of hopeful patriots,
especially if they may or may not ever choose to use them...
If you want to have hand-out weapons, SKS's and Mosin Nagants, Mausers, etc. are inexpensive and more effective.
Mausers and SKSs are pretty expensive lately, both around $200-250, if you can find AK parts kits [with the barrels [importing
the barrels was recently outlawed]] they are usually less than $200, then you have $25 for a receiver flat, and $10 each for
magazines, you just need to fold the flat, and weld the rails on, you don't need to harden it, it'll just not last as long, but by
the time it wears out you'll have picked up someone else's gun.
Bending the flat and welding the lower rails in is the hardest part of the job, actually, and if you can do those steps correctly...
why not harden the hammer pin holes, trigger pin holes, and ejector nub while you're at it? It takes less than five minutes.
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MAAP gas torches cost ~$13 (with an extra bottle) in most places, but you can do it without that, also.
I've seen cases where someone forgot to harden the ejector and it began to peen badly after two shots. It could essentially
lock up a bolt trying to pass over it and take the gun out of the fight.
Over here guns are very hard to obtain legally, so the kalashnikov parts kit is out of the question. Slam bang firearms are an
option, but then you have to obtain ammo. Ammo can be obtained from wherever people are shooting, only last night I found
2 of the 9mm rounds and a shotgun cartridge. Maybe iHME has an idea for the 'Battery gun'.
We have a 16mm(yes you read right) muzzle loader with a simple trigger mechanism.
A 1-3mm flash hole is drilled and a short length of fuze is put trough, a modified modified fireplace lighter is used as the
trigger to ignite the fuze and thus the propellant.
For me this thing is more a toy, the flash hole in mine is too big (2,5mm, did not have a smaller bit at hand) so I lose power
thanks for it.
I also don't have proper propellant for it.
Alright, the Luty design seems sufficient for emergency production - it's like the Liberator's better, meaner cousin. But what
about all of the guns that are suddenly going to be verboten for us poor old plebes? What does it take, assuming moderate
machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools, to produce bolt, semi- and fully-automatic rifles?
Most of the gunsmithing courses I've checked out are about accurizing, adjusting or modifying firearms, I don't think I've ever
seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."
Quote 3287:
"What does it take, assuming moderate machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools, to produce bolt, semi- and
fully-automatic rifles?
Most of the gunsmithing courses I've checked out are about accurizing, adjusting or modifying firearms, I don't think I've ever
seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."
...I don't think I've ever seen one that says, "Here's some steel, let's make a gun."There are members here that can and do
just that- with the help of available "parts kits" that supply various components.
Precise hole placement/drilling and sheet metal bending is what's mainly needed to build them. With just a little searching
(google "ak47 gun kit", for instance:rolleyes:), you will find sites that cater to scratch-building "stamped-steel"-receiver
weapons.
Recently, I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed. Can anyone shed any light on this?
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3287 November 7th, 2008, 04:43 PM
I'll research it and see what I can pull up. I have seen the AK sites, and while I'm not a super-fan of the AK, it's better than
fighting with a stick and a rock. Just ask the Jihadis.
Even if they ban assault weapons, there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted.
Although we need visionary man, intellectual masturbations won't help anyone, because scenario like that is unlikely to
happen, however much you wish for it.
I would understand if you posted a picture with technical information like schematic and sizes of components.
I know I sound a bit offensive, but I said it before, too much material here is discussed on theoretical base, everybody has
some "brilliant" idea
(which he hasn't and wouldn't build, of course) with little true practical meaning, or to show-off of that.
@3287
Jihadis ?
The AK is probably used in most of the countries worldwide.
Are you try to imply that it's only weapon of so called terrorists or members of fictional Al Quasi organisation (interestingly
enough, freedom fighters are always called terrorists by invading country) ?
Ok, I drew a pic of my design in paint, albeit only a rough 'sketch'. It is in pieces at the moment, awaiting a camera so I can
photo its assembly. A PA. Luty gun would be nice, but a proper gun nicer still. I envision a horde of rioters used as a
convenient 'diversion' for a staged assault on an (empty) police station, with the rioters armed with the homemade weapons.
Then the 'Resistance' get proper weapons. However, why 'guns' anyway, why not 'hedgehog' weapons, grenades, CW, optical
isotropic radiators, blinging weapons, 'hot knives', boom sticks, and other 'unusual' weapons which can be effective too?
One, guns are a staple. Wars are won and lost on the backs of infantrymen. The other weapons are great, but you've got
nothing if you have no guns.
Two, guns are much easier than explosives or experimental high-tech weaponry. There's little uncertainty, and they require no
difficult-to-obtain chemicals or devices. In their simplest form, they're just a tube to direct the bullet and a hammer to activate
the cartridge.
I think that the single shot reloadable handgun is still viable, just not quite the same as the Liberator. First, the liberator had
problems in that it was percieved as too cheap to be counted on. In reality they worked, but those few resistance fighters who
got them were said to be too sceptical of them to actually use them in action. Using moderm manufacturing, a break action or
falling block handgun that feels like something could be more readily accepted. Think of the Sheridan Knockabout 22 single
shot at one end and the Thompson Contender (one of my favorite handguns ) at the other end of the spectrum and you could
build a gun in the middle.
Next perameter I would add is either provision for a silencer or just built in to the design. Think of the British designed Welrod
pistols of WWII. Reason being that as others have pointed out, most folks don't want to fight. Non trained and under trained
fighters are the people we are talking about arming here. Anything that adds a degree of confidence is key. The feeling that
'all hell will break loose when I pull this trigger' scares many people out of pulling that trigger. Increase the likelyhood of
getting away with it and the would be/ may be fighter can focus on doing the deed.
I think the idea of a full auto gun is not as practical. You could build Macs or Stens, but they are a bit more gun than most
people can shoot well. A manualy operated firearm is very practical. There is a damn good reason my father started me
shooting with a single shot 22. First off, I was seven years old. More over, that's just the best way to start a marksman off. As
an aside, the fact that there are many many people in this country that were similarly taught as children makes a real
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impediment to any sort of invasion of my country. Just don't try it.
Lastly, I would add a provision for adding a shoulder stock or make the gun adaptable being converted to a rifle. Shoulder
arms are easier to shoot well than pistols. A suppressed pistol caliber or even 22 rifle/pistol platform would be readily accepted
and infinitely practical.
On a historical note, most of the Liberator pistols were eventualy destroyed, not delivered to resistance movements. The
French government in exile objected to flooding their country with zip guns that were un numbered smoothbores that would be
all over the underworld after the war. Likewise other countries realized that the war would end and didn't want them distributed
to be a lethal nuisance to their police for years to come. This comes from the book "OSS Weapons" by Brunner.
Oh, thank you very much for giving us this precious informations !
But a sten with a crude stick welder, files, drill and bitts?
Maybe a sten clone in some low pressure cartidge like .25acp or .32.
But a full fledged sten in 9mm would be hard to build.
But if you can make one even a non-firing replica, please do!
Add a angle and bench grinder to the mix and you could replicate some of the milling operations. Making the bolt would be
the hardest part.
And if I have figured it out correctly. There could be a way how someone could make a sten style bolt with a drill press, angle
grinder and files.
The barrels were recently banned from importation, because they supposedly had no "sporting purpose". "Sporting purpose" is
bullshit, the second amendment was given so citizens could regain freedom, if the need arises. Hunting, clay pigeons, etc.
have nothing at all to do with the 2nd amendment... :(
I even think if you put that time and will in conventional jobs for gaining money, and beside that you search for (not legal)
firearms, you would end up better than building it on your own.
Illegal Ak-47 sells for about $500 and one mag for $30 and 1000 bullets for $250. And masses have been ARMED to teeth. a
political party named MQM "Mutahida Quomi Movement" I think it is called. It was proclaimed as a Terrorist Organization by
Canadian Supreme Court when MQM goons tried to run a Toronto and Vancouver units, found excessively involved in money
laundering.
If anyone interested can watch news about karachi because within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE.
Arming masses means "weapons which are tested and have readily available ammunition be made available to people who
can fight one to one fights for survival"
most common weapons are Tula Tokarev 30 Cal. Chinese make 9mms. People have even been rumoured to have taken
loans from banks to buy weapons on license. The Governor of that Province "Sindh" is someone who was WANTED in terrorism
cases not one or two but 43 different cases. Pakistan has been at war since it got its independence and now is the HUB of all
sorts of wars. Be it international, National, city wise or tribal or even street wise.
This is where arming the masses has been carried out on GRAND scale.
A bit of a drama-queen post. Please restrain yourself from airing your views on local politics. This is not the place for that.
Learn the difference between 9mm and 7.62mm (30 cal). They are not the same as you imply.
Guns are cheap and universally available (thank God). I have a Tokarev myself.... takes 7.62 necked bullets. It's a known
car-stopper, cop killer, with the power of a 44 magnum... excellent penetration. See video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfoDH7s-Hnc
Cheap, tough, and easy to maintain. The best serious weapon for 'arming the masses' I say.
And no, I didn't have to take out a loan from the bank.:p Chinese TTs (Tokarevs) only cost Rs.12,000 ($150)... a local made
TT would've only cost me $50 at the most (but since my weapon is legal, why act cheap?). And magazines and laser mounts
and accessories of all sorts are openly available without a license (for any sort of weapon). A Tokarev magazine costs less
than $4 (US).
I believe arming the masses is a good thing. Keeps the riffraff in check. Because the riffraff will always be armed no matter
what laws you put in place.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > W asr compensator
question
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I can't see any reason why it would hurt to screw it on as is other than m a y b e c o s m etically, assum ing it's m ade for a rifle that
c h a m b e r s t h e s a m e r o u n d a s y o u r s d o es. It probably won't engage the spring loaded pin in the base of the front sight post to
keep it from backing off, so if you like it on there better than without it, you might just silver solde r it there in place.
Alternatively, you could try to find a 14 :1 reverse thread bottom t a p ( I d i d s e e t h e m s o m eplace, actually, b ut the site evades
m e now) and finish out the threads on your compensator that way. Mcm aster Carr would surely have them, but you'll pay a
pretty penny for one there (much more than a new flash hider or recoil com p e n s a tor, anyway).
Show us som e pics. O f the com pensator would be helpful, but I'm a suck er for gu n-porn, so show us your WASR, too! :)
Aside from s o m e m odels working well to redirect m uzzle flash to the side so you don't lose your sight picture so easily, they
s e e m to do nothing much for recoil that I could tell. Some certainly look cooler than others, though.
If it were me, I'd stick a m uzzlenut or a slant b rake on there (so I could use a bayonet if needed) and call it done. But then all
the AKMs I've ever fired were "working guns" so cosm etics never m attered one bit.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > TZ 75 Series 88 41
Action Express
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > hom ebrew blackpo wder
to cartridge conversion
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I a m a welder by trad e a n d a n a m a t e u r h o m e g u n s m ith , m y m ain interest is single action pistols, lever action rifles and
double barrel shotguns.
I recently bought 2 1851 navy copies very chea p b o t h n e e d a l o t o f c o s m etic work and small parts replaced, I have researched
conversions online and only find the comm ercial offered kits. I found one item while doing a pattern search but no real tech to
try my own.
I h a v e a n I d e a a n d w o u l d l i k e input to see if it is possible and to let m e know if I'm m issing any steps.
Here is what I have 2, 36 cal BP revolvers, a 22lr barrel from an old Stevens single shot rifle, a me tal shop and a friend with a
m illing m achine.
I a m thinking if I drill out the BP barrel and cylinder to say .380 (cylinder is at current .376) then have the old 22 barrel m illed
to fit as an insert into the BP barrel and cylinde r. W eld them in place, then do the finishing touches such as m o d d i n g t h e
h a m mer to rimfire, etc etc. After all is said and done I am thinking I wou ld have a nice 22 lr 1851 pistol.
W ould I have to rem ove the barrelling from the sections of barrel I would be using in the cylinder, if yes wo uld it just be easier
t o u s e r o u n d s t o c k a n d m illet to fit ?
I hope this is worded right, I know in m y cluttered little m ind what I'm thinking and wanting to do and hope I have given
enough info for comm enting back on.
I cant really help m uch with th e barrel. I could never afford (or legally purchase) anything other than hydraulic tube for
barrels.:(
I think you m ean rifling instead of barreling. You could simple turn down the 22 barrel to .01 less than the diam eter of the
barrel ID. This would give let you just drop the 22 barrel in and m elt sold er in the cracks to seal it.
How I helped!
Thanks for the info , I am hoping to try this project during m y vacation . in decem ber . So all the info I can get between now
a n d t h e n s h o u l d m a k e this a sm ooth project .
I hope the info you have now is really enough to get you started, as if your gramm ar does not im prove gre atly, I suspect yo u
will not be a m e m ber here at RS for that long.
G i v i n g y o u t h e g e n e r o u s b e n e fit of the doubt that you will attempt this conversion, maybe I can help in some way.
First off, if you are not choose y as to what calib er your converted revolvers will be, the existing barrel of the .36 navies you
have would suffice for the .38 special round, providing you never shoot any jacketed bullet. 100% soft lead only. Th a t m a y
help alot towards your conversion endevours.
I don't have an 1851 Colt example right in front of m e, so I can not mic the cham bers of the cylinder to see how a .38 spl
casing would fit if you sim ply drilled ou t the back, ream e d , a n d a d d e d a d o t o f w e l d t o t h e ham mer to strike the centerfire
prim er. Besides, diffe rent m a k e r s m e a n s d i f f e r e n c e s i n t h e m e a surem e n t s ( P e d e rsoli, F. Pietta, Uberti, Palm etto, etc).
In the chance this will not work (Drilling out the cylinder for a sleeve of th is caliber seem s like it m a y n o t l e a v e e n o u g h " m eat"
between cham bers to work well), so long as you have the existing BP cylinder handy as a m odel and access to a lathe, m illing
m achine, and rotary indexing vise for your drillpress, making a new cylinder is not as difficult as you m ight im a g i n e a f t e r s o m e
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trial and erro r. You'll want to use a steel high in carbon content to be able to harden it after com pleted.
If a .22LR is your ultim a t e g o a l a s y o u suggest, the pro cess will be a bit m ore involved with the barrel but MUCH less so with
the cylinder. The barrel you should either ream out the rifling an d pressfit a new barrel liner in with a shop press or leave the
riflin g and use a very powerful compou nd glue like JB W eld to hold it into place. A weld at the crown and where the sleeve
alm ost engages the cylinder that could be turned to perfection would be very good for longevity.
As for the cylinder, drill out the ass end (bit centered from the front), rea m, and press fit your newly lathe turned "cham ber
sleeves" into each on e then rework your ham m er to strike the rim o f a n i n d e x e d r o u n d .
My disclaimer here is that I have never done this. This is all speculation on my part as I h a v e n o 1 8 5 1 m o d e l h e r e t o l o o k a t,
which would be very h elpful. I do have an exploded view of this m odel, though it shows no m e a s u r e m ents. I'll post it here
anyway for anyone who m ay like to see it.
Personally, I favor the 1858 R emington due to the topstrap support of the fram e and the ability to swap cylinders with relative
e a s e a n d s p e e d . T h a t a n d I r e a l l y h a t e t h e C o l t ' s w e d g e h o l d i n g t h e d a m n thing together. Seem s weak in design to m e. But, I
suppose I'd work with what's on hand, like you.
Good luck.
The Explosives and W eapons Forum > Military Science > Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n > AR -15 Lighting Link
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And to live long and healthy h ere, read and follow the links provided HER E (http://www.rog uesci.org/theforum /
a n n o u n c e m e nt.php?f=14) and read THIS (http://www.ro guesci.org/theforum /showthread.p hp?t=4469) thread for good
m easure...
In a nutshell, the AR lightning link is considered a m achinegun in and of itself, which a perm it has to be ap p l i e d f o r t o p o s s e s s
a n y a n d a t a x p a i d f o r e a c h o n e t o b e l e g a l . H a p p y h o o p jumping...