good morning and welcome to today's

webinar why our industry automation

chemical best my name is Dan Armendariz

and I will be your moderator for today's

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presentation but please feel free to ask

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with you and it better not be ten or

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okay now we'll close the poll and thank

you for responding today it gives me

great pleasure to introduce today's

presenter Bob boudic who I have known

for nearly 25 years

Bob graduated from Trenton State College

and received his MBA from Georgian Cork

University he is the director of process

equipment and engineering at BASF

Chemical today's webinar will focus as

promoted on making bass more efficient

automated sampling testing and addition

data collection operator safety and with

that I'll turn this presentation over to

Bob

you

you

at times we do have technical

difficulties because we're all working

remotely all right Thank You Dane

appreciate it very much saying are you

able to see the presentation well yes I

am okay so we see the presentation

screen not the side screen we see the

eye screen with it also oh you do okay

so I need to need to change this I'm

sorry

then that worker is that's still the

same way oh do you have the major large

slide and the side slide beside it all

right I'm sorry I was trying to get that

to to come at the opposite way but it's

so on a different screen let me just try

one else thing here and that's good all

right perfect thank you all right

welcome along and I apologize for any

little inconvenience

I want to thank you all for taking the

time today to be part of this

presentation topic what I tried to do is

to provide a little bit of insight into

several different topics to hopefully

stimulate a little bit of conversation

and at the same time to give you a

little bit of information about what

could be done for automation in the wire

industry so some of the topics that

we're going to be talking about today a

little example of a process line we'll

go into some ways some agitation is used

to enhance the chemical process and

we'll be talking about some different

types of filtration to extend your bath

lights we'll go into a little bit of

history of powder feeding to see if in

fact that can help out your process talk

a little bit about process control and

then also go into the data collection

systems everything we'll be talking

today is going to be based on a process

line example that I have here this

example is typical to what a process may

be all tanks may not be exactly the same

the tanks may be a little bit

differently based on the way you're

building layout is but again everything

we're going to be going over today will

be based on this where we have the

cleaning the rinsing the pickling spray

rinse the cascade rinse and then the

also the proselytize and activation and

do digitisation line and so on so this

may not look exactly like your setup but

this is considered to be an optimal

setup for the application

so first thing we're to talk a little

bit about is that that is agitation

there's many ways to agitate a tank and

I'm sure you've probably tried a lot of

them agitation does help enhance the

chemical process there's people that

have put mixers propeller style mixers

into the tanks there's people who have

used air people who have used inductor

type nozzles one set up had a huge

paddle that went around in a circle and

moved the stuff from one end of the tank

to another so there's a lot of different

styles out there and so today what I'm

going to do is kind of focus just on the

ones used for air and also for eductor

agitation air is used all over the world

due to its you know it's installation is

very very simple there's an abundant

supply of it all over and the

installation again being so simple it

only requires in many cases a one inch

or larger pipe across the bottom of the

tank people will do this nothing more

than drill some holes into the tank and

basically the pipe goes the entire

length from one end to another maybe

even on both sides and what it will do

is doesn't bubble the air up into the

tank and the air bubbling up will allow

a natural agitation to take place

similar to what you would see in some

types of if your jacuzzis that you would

see if in fact the pressurized system

goes down so the pump is no longer

pumping you may still have some air

effervescent through this type of

agitation is what you would see with

just a basic error agitation the next

method is is the adductor agitation this

is becoming more and more common in the

industry what it requires is a couple

pipe strategically placed with adductors

on them and the adductors give a good

motion very very similar to it you would

see in a Jacuzzi type setup where it

will violently mix the tank and agitate

the tank in such a way to really enhance

the chemical and the rinsing processes

we're not looking to get in payment on

the part with these nozzles what we're

looking to do is

allow the solution to move around and

through the coil so that all the wire

everything is completely cleaned and

treated accordingly because you have

this motion going around and it's no

longer a stagnant tank by itself if you

take a look at the abductor nozzle

you'll see that the input each one

gallon of pressurized fluid that goes

through that will mix with four gallons

of liquid through the adductor portion

and your output would be five gallons of

recirculation so if we're looking at the

different tanks that you would have a

cleaner tank may require twenty to

thirty tank turns an hour well if we

have a 3000 gallons cleaner tank with 25

tank turns and we'll pick a right in the

middle we're talking about 11 inductors

strategically placed inside that tank

the pump that we would need would be

capable of doing approximately 260

gallons a minute at 40 psi the formula

for doing this if anybody's interested

is that you just take the gallons in

your tank and then multiply it by how

many tank turns you won and you think

your gallons by the tank turns and then

divide it by 60 because again we're

talking tank turns per hour and what we

want to do is reduce that down to

gallons per minute and then we do it

again we reduce it by a divided by five

so let's take the three thousand gallon

tank twenty five tank turns divided by

60 divided by five and we get

approximately 250 260 gallons per minute

of a pump that we would need so looking

at the different setups for a cleaning

tank the pump may be required for 250

260 gallons a minute your rinse tanks

would be less and you can build by with

a smaller tank and let's see doctor

nozzles because typically 10 to 20 tank

terms is enough and then you go down to

your zinc phosphate tank and you'll see

a zinc phosphate thing may only require

a pump that's going to do approximately

75 to 100 gallons a minute in order to

keep everything completely agitated so

looking at this type of

and it's a very very convenient setup to

do the most important thing is to make

sure that your adductors are

strategically placed in such a way so

that you hit all the spots and you get a

good agitation there's no dead spots in

the tank

you're comparing the two air agitation

to the adductor style what you'll see

that the air being very easy to install

but it's also very expensive to operate

and this is something that a lot of

people forget about and that you're

talking about a air that you say well

every plant has it it's around all over

the place well yes it is but you need a

compressor to compress that air and then

you need to be able to take it from the

compressor and bring it over to your

process where you dock your agitation

might be a little bit more expensive to

install but it's definitely less

expensive to operate and it gives you a

much more uniform agitation we put a

tank system in for one customer in Ohio

and they were presently using a twenty

five horsepower compressor and it was

calculated out that that compressor cost

them over twenty six thousand dollars a

year in order to run in electric costs

the adductor agitation system that we

put in required only a ten horsepower

motor and the annual electric savings

cost of that was ten thousand four

hundred fifty six dollars so you see

there was a twelve thousand dollar

savings almost of using inductive

agitation as compared to air and also it

was a lot more uniform the system paid

for itself literally in less than six

months so if I look at question sure on

the inductor agitation is it possible to

use that also as a area where you can

add a liquid chemical to the bath if you

want it sure and some people will do

that the only thing you have to be

careful about is to make sure that what

you're the piping and everything you're

using for the adductors itself are

chemically compatible these are doctors

are made in a lot of different materials

they'll make them out of PVC or polypro

they're made out of cast iron they're

made out of stainless steel and you can

also get them out of kynar in some of

the exotic alloys and if you're going to

be adding the chemical directly internet

in a

concentrated form it's probably best

just to make sure that it is chemically

compatible but yes it will work and it

will work very well

one of the other problems though that's

associated with air agitation that I

didn't touch on

besides being expensive air sometimes

you will have oil inside of it you know

have moisture inside of it and the

piping that's bringing the air and many

of the older plants is usually black

iron or carbon steel and because of that

you have a lot of rust that's internal

to that piping and now we're bringing

those contaminants into the tank that

we're using to agitate with our air so

you want to be cautious of that you may

want to filter the air that you're using

prior to it going into the tank in order

to get those types of contaminants out

because it could present the problem for

you later on but again air is the most

commonly used all over the world on but

at the same time it's a very very

expensive way to run your process as

compared to going with conventional

inductor style agitation next on the

agenda was filtration and I wanted to

touch on a couple of things for

filtration for you just to give you an

idea on on what can be done for our

process tanks in a wire industry there's

many types of filtration I'm sure you've

tried a lot of them here's your

conventional bag filtration there's your

cartridges there's fabric media there's

the pressurized bed filtration and

there's also the filter presses so these

types of items that are out there all

have their fit in a given application

but sometimes they're used in

applications that may not be the best

for them to be used in the cleaner base

as an example you know typically you

would try to turn them over three to

five turns an hour for filtration and

most of the time you're going to use a

filter bag that or filter media that's

somewhere between 25 and 40 micron in

size your zinc phosphate you know may

only require a turnover of five times a

day but then loading in a zinc phosphate

is going

considerably more than the loading that

you would see in a cleaner map I'm

seeing phosphates also somewhere in the

25 micron is a good starting rate your

acid pickles they're in two to three

times an hour again that you would want

to work with and the same thing for your

neutralizing rinses the same thing in

that at that time frame so we're talking

just a couple times in an hour that you

want to turn the backup and again 25

micron is a great starting place when

you're talking about what micron fabrics

should I use for them some of the

different styles that I'm sure you're

familiar with your conventional bag

filtration all right this is probably

the most common that's used in the

industry one of the problems with the

conventional bags though is that the

bags plug up and when the bags plug a

lot of times the maintenance people will

take out that 25 micron and put a 50 or

put a hundred micron bag in reason being

is that that'll instead of changing it

once a day they are once a shift they

could change it once a week not

realizing that you're not helping the

bath by basically putting more and more

about particulate matter into it so

ideally what you'd want to do is not

necessarily worry about the you know

changing the bag out to a different size

it's I would make sure that if you

needed to change it out less frequently

look at going with a larger vessel

instead of a single or dual bag but with

a multiple bag vessel something back in

the conventional method you can get

these an 8 10 12 and so on bags and then

what that will do is allow you to change

it out a lot less often the next media

that you see the center of the page is

the indexing bed or gravity style filter

all right this provides very very good

filtering but it's much slower than what

you would see at a conventional bag what

typically to set up where the system

would be is that you'll have a pump

that's going to pump the solution on top

of that chain which would have a fabric

media on it and what will happen is is

that chain then will index as

the fabric media blinds because of the

contamination it'll allow the chain to

move faster across and move it up maybe

three to six inches at a time until that

particular area gets plugged and the

chain will always overflow the media

into you see the container that's

sitting on top the media would start

over on a roll on this portion and it

will flow into a cross down across the

chain and then dump out into here

biggest problem with this type of filter

again it is very efficient but it is

also a heat sink you'll lose a lot of

temperature in this particular type of

filter system because you're going to be

pumping the solution a heated solution

up into the filter it's going to be

sitting in that filter as is gravity

feeding through and it's going to be

going through to the bottom and then

gravity feeding back into your process

tank well because of that what's going

to wind up happening is is that you're

going to be losing a lot of the heat

that was in the solution that you

started with so you'll have to take that

and basically work and back up again so

that you can build the heat back up for

your process the last one that you have

there is the one from Overland now

Overland is a very very efficient

filtration system for those of you who

have seen it their claim to fame has

been for these Inc phosphate solutions

they do a lot with the metalworking

fluids also and their solution is a

little different than the other two what

they've done is taking the information

that you get from an index in gravity

bed and instead of having a gravity flow

through the solution what they're doing

is physically forcing it through the

fabric media and then a platen comes

down covers the system and they air dry

it so you end up getting a cake that

comes out a dried cake that you're able

to then dispose of much more efficiently

the overland system is

very costly but it does do an excellent

job part of the issues with the Overland

though are that this particular system

the piping that goes to it especially if

you're working off of a zinc phosphate

process the piping can blind and plug up

and I'm sure you've seen what it does

when the zinc phosphate solidifies

inside some piping it becomes like

concrete so one of the things that's

most important if you're looking at this

type of system is that any elbow in your

process becomes a tea and any tea

becomes a cross and because what you're

trying to do is have an area that you

can rot out or clean out that piping

because if it's coming to that and it

dries down over a weekend it could be a

nightmare to try to get that process

running again another system that's not

pictured here that you may or may not

have used is also a filter press and we

have a system that's out in the

marketplace is called an iron limitation

unit it's used a lot on these ink

phosphate applications in the wire

industry and what it is it's a

continuous feed system where you'd have

a pump off of your zinc phosphate tank

pump it into a lamella style clarifier

that has a mixer that diffuses air out

of the atmosphere into the solution the

air that's in the atmosphere reacts with

the iron that's in the zinc phosphate

and allows it to precipitate out on the

lamella plates what's nice about that

the metal the fluffer two slides that

precipitates down goes through a

clean-out which then goes through a

filter press and then the filter press

can take the solution and press it

similar to what the Oberlin does I'm

sorry I didn't have that picture in for

this today but if anybody would like any

information on that

that is something that I do have

available if in fact you find it

necessary

next area we want to just cover a little

bit that is on powder feeding when I

first started with the company a few

years ago the first project that I was

assigned to do was to fix the powder

feeding system that we had and a few

years ago I'm saying it was

approximately 40 years ago when we tried

to fix a powder feeder that was around

and this powder feeder if you can

picture it was a drum had a special lid

with a screen on it turned upside down

onto a small tank with a spray nozzle

and you had a pump that would spray up

as it needed solution it was spray up

into this tank and then the tank would

gravity feed this powdered solution that

was slightly diluted into a pump then

that pump would transfer to different

feed lines the process was cleaning

small containers for the different soda

bottles

if you remember those old five gal

containers well one of the problem with

that was is that the lid would plug up

the screen would plug up the powder

inside the drum which solidified and

become rock-hard like concrete and it

became very very difficult to control so

we looked at this and we said well this

is not probably not the ideal way to do

that the ideal way we found may be to

dissolve the whole drum at once and

spray up into it and dissolve the whole

drum thinking that that would resolve

everything but at the same time even

trying to do something that's simple by

spraying up so much into it the powder

coming into the tank the powder fell to

the bottom of that container and

solidified in the bottom of that

container so powder feeding has been

something that we in the chemical

industry have been working on for many

many years it's not something that

anybody has a a finite approach to yet

because most the powders that we have

have hydro scopic tendencies I mean if

you went into your kitchen

store cabinet now it opened up and

looked at your garlic powder or your

salt you may find out that it picked up

some moisture and it's solidified in

that container and now you have to find

a way to crush that up in order to allow

it to flow back through the holes that

you have well the same thing happens to

us in the chemical industry is that

we're trying to get that powder to feed

in a uniform basis and it plugs up

inside the hoppers literally it will

turn into a block of concrete and it'll

trip out the over loads of the motors

it'll burn out the motors and in some

cases you know actually the orders

themselves will snap a nap which is

what's something that's happened to us

several times the one with the drum on

top is a system that we had tried and it

did work successfully during the you

know winter months when it was very cold

and dry but soon as it became slightly

damp in the environment of the facility

the powder tended to solidify and we had

nothing but problems with it and Larry

was very very costly so there's not a

lot of great ways to to feed powder

under every circumstance but there is a

great association that you may or may

not have heard of it's the powder and

bulk solids association and if you're

looking for some ideas they are a great

Avenue to look at they do make several

different types of systems there's one

system that has been tested recently

it's very similar to your shopback where

you're going to suck they suck the

powder out with the vacuum and then

place it into a in an area that you'd

want to use it at but they have a great

association and if in fact you're

looking for an idea to try to feed a

difficult powder they would be somebody

that I would talk to again these two

being very common ones that you'll see

out there the auger style but at the

same time there's something new

happening

all the time so I would ask you with you

you had the opportunity and you have a

difficult application to please you know

give them a holler to Bob I think that's

a great suggestion could you repeat that

name again at that association all right

it's the powder and bulk solids

Association

great because I know on the plants like

go into we always see operators opening

bags and dumping the Cotters in or

shoveling out of drums and it's one of

the things that isn't safe I mean it

would be nicer if we could have

something automated but sometimes the

maintenance problems outweigh the safety

okay sorry to interrupt no no that's

fine it also some places especially for

the activators as an example for the

zinc phosphate there's a lot of people

that will take and you know use a slurry

tank for deactivation again it requires

handling and the operator has to put in

three four or five scoops of the

activation in in order to have it fed in

these do help you out where you can feed

it in and keep it agitated and use it so

you only have to make those additions

you know once or twice a week but at the

same time it still has the handling that

we've tried for so long to try to get

you know a control over but again you

know just we just haven't hit it yet

next area would like to talk a little

bit about and that's in the process

control area and you've probably heard

industry 4.0 spoken about a lot there's

a lot of truth to what they want to do

with industry 4.0 and specifically you

know we know we can monitor a process

and we know we can monitor several value

variables of that process but what we're

trying to do or what they're asking for

with the industry 4.0 is to find a way

that we can take those variables that we

have the information from and then we

could make the different changes to the

process to accommodate the changes in

the different variables so if the

temperature goes up if the concentration

goes down these kind of pressure goes

down these kind of things can be

monitored automatically and adjustments

made automatically so that it you don't

have to have someone there watching it

or doing it all the time so that's what

industry 4.0 is driving right now and in

our industry with the wire Association

there's a lot of different variables

that we can monitor for our systems I'll

go over a few of them and you can read

the rest but if we take a look at your

cleaners typically most companies will

monitor the conductivity of the cleaner

baths they'll look at the temperature

they may look at the time how long was

the spool into the particularly nurse oh

we know wasn't able to get you know the

true cleaning how many schools went in

in a given day so we can get an idea on

how much and then wasn't facting is it

about time to to change out the bath

based on how much was processed you know

do we want to monitor the chemical feed

to know how much went in how much

chemical we use on any given day if

we're looking to do a filter on it you

know can we monitor the Delta P as a

filter so that we can automatically tell

hey we need to change this out or hey

the media is shot or the pump is not

pumping the way it should along with

that gee agitation pressure one of the

things

it's sad in a way is that a lot of

people realize so highly engages when

they're talking about their agitation or

monitoring their tank pressures and what

happens with that is that the gauges

sometimes do fail and when they fail

they may lock up at that 10 12 18 psi

whatever we're running at and not having

a way to verify those gauges we had a

pump that was running everybody thought

everything was fine only to find out

that there was no pressure at all coming

out of everything they were blaming

everybody and anybody for failures what

happened was is the veins on top of the

pump had had worn down and because

they'd worn down the way they did they

were no longer getting the kind of

pressure that they needed the gauge

showed that everything was okay but

realistically it wasn't had they had a

transducer on it a transmitter that you

can find out what the pressure was also

they might have been able to pick that

up along with that also the tank level

maintained the level at a certain amount

and you may wonder why is this so

important well the importance comes just

because if someone makes a large ad of

water what will happen is is that your

chemical balance is going to change

until the chemical feed pump can bring

it back to what is the normal range so

you can maintain your level within a

certain Delta as compared to looking oh

I'm about six inches low let me fill it

back up by doing that what you'll be

able to do is maintain a tight Delta

your chemical feed will be minimal at

any given time and you'll have a uniform

map all the time so if we look at the

different parameters for our rinse again

typically what rinses we would monitor

the conductivity maybe the temperature

again maybe the time how long it was

rinsed but also the de filter and the

agitation and a tank level the only ones

you see that might be a little bit

different your activation and your zinc

your activation a lot of times we'll

monitor both conductivity and pH

for your zinc's we don't kind of monitor

conductivity as much but we do monitor

pH because that is something that is

very important to know what the pH range

we're in so this gives you a little bit

of an idea on what typically we may do

with monitoring of the chemical

processes now what's the best for you

you know we have a survey that we do

when we come out and we'll take a look

at your process and we'll talk with you

and go over what you need what is

important to you to monitor with a given

stage on a given outlook you take a look

at the process that we described in the

second slide today you'll notice that

the using that bath as and that tank

layout as what would develop this for

you'll see that there's approximately 87

analogue digital inputs that we would

monitor in order to get a very good idea

of that process and we have

approximately 16 digital outputs that we

would use to take care of making

necessary replenishments or corrections

so we don't have to use everything that

we had in that prior slide the prior

slide was just showing you what could be

monitored then we can take a look at

each individual stage and say what do we

want to monitor what is important to us

to know and maybe you know the

temperature of the rinse tanks is not

important so we don't need to include

that the same with the agitation

pressure maybe we're not as worried

about there but we are worried about it

in a chemical processes maybe in a spray

rinses we want to know how much water we

use it so maybe we'll take a look at

what the flow rate is in a spray rinse

the tank levels again like we talked

about maybe in our dryer we want to

monitor the temperature we might want to

monitor how much time something was in

the dryer for so these kind of things

are things that we would typically look

at and we would say all right what do we

need to do now based on what we just

went through

and what we selected what is the next

step and what we would do and most

chemical companies will do with you is

to sit down and then decide what type of

instrumentation would be the best for

you what is best for your process and

we're looking at what kind of pressure

transmitters what kind of level controls

now what kind of conductivity or pH

monitors and then do we want to also

maybe monitor some of the energy

constituents that we have do we want to

take a look at hey how much gas did we

use today we put a meter on the gas line

how many how much parts or how many

total coils did we process today or how

much water did we use today or even how

much chemical did we use if we can get

that information and bringing it all

into one area what you'll be able to

then do is view it from some type of

SCADA system that you'd be able to see

everything that's going on again the

supervisor of control and data

acquisition is this the Yaak when the

SCADA stands for we have our own we have

our Kodak system there's a lot of

different systems out there and

typically what we're trying to do is

combine everything that you want to

monitor find the best possible devices

that are out there for this so that we

can take this information and really use

it to give you the type of data that you

need you take a look you'll see there's

a lot of different things on here and

it's just a matter of taking those

different things and saying yes this is

what I would like to do based on that

then we want a screen we want some kind

of display that's going to show us

exactly what's going on this particular

one would be for you know a spray rinse

system you can have the exact same type

of design that would be for your

agitation system and literally what we

would have instead of having the the

nozzles that you see up top here these

nozzles would be placed inside your tank

the nozzles would change color if in

fact the spray is spraying at the

pressure you want each of the boxes

here you know would show you exactly

what's going on with your process as

well if you're linked the service of

your pump

how many minutes or how many hours as

that pump and operating so you can get

an idea not only how your solution

strength is not only how well your

process is running but also hey how my

pumps been running out for you know

2,000 hours we may need to take a look

or get a replacement ready we may want

to take a look at the bearings to make

sure they're okay

all this type of information can be

combined and brought into one central

area for you so that you're able to have

all of that data and have that data in

front of you you'll notice that the pump

is turned green in this picture and what

that means is that maybe chemical feed

has taken place if in fact the valve was

green it may be blowing down or allowing

some of the chemistry and that tanked

and going down because the solids are up

too high so these are the kind of things

that you would want to look for when

you're looking at process control for

your system this is one way of doing it

there's also another way and this is the

way that's used a lot in the nuclear

power industry the nuclear power

industry you know but yes these screens

or all the fancy pictures are very nice

but typically what they look for is they

look for something to make it very

simple and easy to read so in this

particular case here you can see that if

it's green it's okay if it's yellow it

means it's slightly above or slightly

below what is considered to be your

ideal setting if it's in a red it's in

an area that could be a problem for you

and it needs to be addressed right away

these type of process screens give you a

great overview they really make the

process visible so now you have

something that you can take a look at

and see exactly the way your process is

running and then take this information

and if the screen is done correctly you

can double click on any one of these

settings any one of these boxes and it

will show you exactly what your settings

are

it'll show you exactly what your

concentration is set for what your

setpoint is what your I'll I'm a low

alarm so be able to see exactly how the

process has been running for the past

couple you know you know what your set

points are for the past couple days

knowing this and having this information

available goes a long way and making

sure that your process is under control

so now we have all of this information

alright what do we do with it

all right what do we do with all of this

data well ideally what we need to do is

we need to set up a system put something

in place that's going to be able to

collect this data all of it not just a

real-time but be able to take it and

archive it and do it in such a way that

it's going to make it visible for

everybody that needs to see it in your

facility so ideally what we'd want to do

is take this information and put it into

some type of system some type of

web-based system so that you'd be able

to from any operator screen anywhere in

the facility that needs to see it would

be able to see exactly how the process

is running now some of the benefits of

this sure to have a screen for the

operator to see how everything is

running right in front of him is always

a big benefit having something possibly

in the lab where you know you do all

your controls so they can see and say

wow I need to take a look at that

there's a problem there possibly in the

supervisors office but another area

that's sometimes overlooked is over in

waste treatment what happens is is that

if you're monitoring tank levels and the

tank level is high we know that it's

overflowing so waste treatment we'll

know that he has water coming his way if

you're looking to maintain your rinse

tanks and your instincts have to be

overflowed in order to get the TDS down

and there's no more room left in waste

treatment in order to have that bethlo

and go to them you know something has

got to stop something has got to be able

to say hey I can't take that right now

and being able to have a system that you

can view in real-time

what's going on and then also you'd be

able to archive it in such a way that

you can see it is very very important

and again these SCADA systems there's a

lot of them out there and there are good

programs and they've been around for a

long time most important thing is being

able to have one though that can give

you the data and archive it in trend it

so you have something back you have your

data collection you have your data any

given day you can see exactly how you

Ryan you can see when they started up in

the morning when they up the temperature

when they started up when that first

coil went in how did it run throughout

the day how did everything look

throughout the day and if in fact the

situation occurred you know can it be

fixed can something somebody take care

of it any time you have any of these

alarms these alarms should be sent out

they could be emailed they could be sent

via text message somebody could be

notified about any of these types of

things so that you're able to easily you

know address them right away when they

occur

I mean pipes brake pumps go down valves

hang up an overflow but having someone

be able to be notified not only changing

red to yellow on a screen but also the

ability to notify somebody about that so

that it could be handled promptly is

real real important and a good data

collection system a good system a SCADA

system will allow that to happen for you

so it's a matter of taking that data and

using that data and having it so that

you can take a look and say alright look

this is how I ran today and I don't know

what happened you know somewhere around

four o'clock in the afternoon we had a

couple of hiccups there and I don't know

what happened a little after midnight

that we went down so low we need to take

a look at that we need to find out

what's going on and we need to get that

line so it's a little bit closer

together for us so these are the kind of

things that is you know is important in

the industry this is the kind of things

that we

work with customers everyday to try to

help them out putting the system

together in order to help out their

process so whether it be going back to

the original slide whether it be you

know in the agitation of the tanks and

monitoring the agitation what can be

done whether it be extending the bath

lights do filtration whether it be

seeing what we can do to help them

because they really like this powder

product we had and they want to find a

safe way to handle it or whether it be a

way of just controlling your process at

any given time and they had taken the

data these are the things that a good

chemical company will do for you it's

the things that we do when our

competitors do because we want to make

it right we want your process to be

around for a long time and we're hoping

that by working together we can really

help you out with that so with that I

hope I covered the little bit of

information that was enough to give you

some ideas on on what's available out

there and at this time Dane you know is

there any questions that we may want to

go over yes there is there's been

questions coming in throughout the

presentation due to the time

restrictions I didn't want to interrupt

every time one came in a couple of them

I can make it a little bit of an answer

for all so number of questions came in

about pH monitoring and why is it

important for zinc phosphate and can you

control a zinc phosphate bath bike you

know watching the pH answer is no the pH

is important it is in Class A processing

line when you're monitoring rinses

neutralizers those areas because you

want to make sure you don't get out of

range on the rinses now Bob maybe you

could talk a little bit about Auto

titrate errs because pH is one of the

things that are used in Auto titration

for doing all the tests that you would

normally be manually which would go into

the SCADA system also and feed into that

could you just elaborate a little on

Auto titration how it works no I'd be

happy to

and until I'd be the pH control for a

zinc phosphate it's not necessarily for

control it's for monitoring one of the

things we don't want to do is have the

pH escalate up and what will happen

sometimes it's the rinses before it are

not kept in a clean mode we've had

tendencies where the pH does escalate up

and that becomes a problem for us so

it's just a matter of knowing the pH but

on the auto titrate or there's a couple

really good companies one company's name

is met your own they're a company

they're based out of Florida and they

make a very very nice Auto titration

system and what the auto tight raters

will do is it'll do the same

titration that your workforce would

normally do whether it be a and alkaline

titration an acid titration they can do

the different titrations including the

ones for some of the advanced pre

treatments that you may have heard about

they can do these titrations and do them

remotely so you'll have a line and a

pump that we take the solution from your

process tank bring it over to the auto

titrate er

the auto titrate er then we'll actually

do the titration for you and basically

it sends a signal to a skated device so

that it can make the necessary chemical

replenishments based on the type

iteration that was done and then right

after the chemical replacement is done

it can be set where you can put in

alright in 30 minutes

let the tank mix yourself thoroughly do

another titration see if it still needs

the any other chemical additions you're

very very good systems are extremely

accurate there are a little unexpensive

sign but again it's all relative you

know a good auto titration system that

could do multiple parameters you're

probably somewhere in the 80 to 150

thousand dollar range in order to do

that but if you look at the titrations

that we're doing now if we're doing a

titration you know twice a shift or once

a shift or once an hour these hydration

systems can do one every ten

minutes so when you're looking at you

know repurposing manpower you may have

people that right now are working the

hoist and working everything and then

they're running down to do a titration

once an hour

well now that person could focus on his

job and now the auto titrate er can make

those titrations for you the only issues

with the auto tight raters that we have

to be cognizant of similar to what I

mentioned about the zinc phosphate the

way the lines plug that is the biggest

problem and that's why you want to use a

good company when you're looking at the

auto tight raters you want a company

that's going to design the delivery

system also in such a way that it's not

going to be plugged up it's not going to

become an issue for you and solidify

where you have to take all the you know

the piping out or tubing out and

replenish it so whenever you're looking

at them like I said Metro is just one

company there's numerous others out

there the feed system that goes to the

auto tight raters it's probably the most

critical thing the auto tight raters

themselves work very very well it's just

the method of getting the solution to

them that could become a problem another

question on the same topic is is any

automation for securing concentration

specifically when there are more than

two elements or components in the bath

changing conductivity and pH and I think

you answered that the auto tight raters

now can do any testing that the operator

can do it's just a matter of how

complicated the process is for the auto

tight rater correct yes anything that

you're titrating now for the bath if

you're titrating you know copper if

you're titrating iron if you're

titrating alkalinity or you're titrating

zinc you're you know anything that

you've been titrate for an auto tight

rotor can do that titration for you and

make those necessary additions or

replenishments of an individual

ingredient if in fact that's what you're

titrating for or for the the process

chemistry if it's a mixture of the

different things in it yes

another question on the powder feeding

we're going backwards here now that's

okay have you looked at have you looked

at using a dry nitrogen atmosphere for

the drama auger which was on the right

which I think was your upside down

Krug sis drum system for putting in

powders no we have not we have not taken

a look at that I will make a note of it

it is it is something that possibly

could work but again it's adding

something else to a customer you know

that they may or may not have or may not

be able to have at their facility but I

will look into that a little bit more

thank you okay which filtration

equipment should be used for phosphate

solution removal of sludge well if we're

looking at the zinc phosphate solution

probably the best one you know on the

market right now is the one from

Overland again it is the most expensive

one but their claim to fame and what

they've done for zinc phosphate

solutions that's probably one of the

best there's another method that I

didn't mention but I get it's used quite

a bit and that is using a clarifier some

people what they will do with some

customers is they'll have a clarifier

tank don't pump the solution up

overnight and some customers even have

to clarifier thanks so what they will do

is just pump one solution up let it

settle for a day and then they have a

solution that they're using in tank that

that that day while it's settling and

they keep changing it out they may have

a filter press or even sludge bags I've

seen where they just pump it they opened

a valve at the bottom of the clarifier

to get the sludge out and allow the

clear liquid to come back to the tank

for processing that works it is an

inexpensive way to go you do need to

have the the footprint in order to have

two tanks back you can you know

accommodate the solution from your ears

ink phosphate but that is also a very

economical way of doing it

it's just not as automated I guess so

some people would like next question is

I think it says for bag filtration is 25

micron size filtration a good starting

point or where would you recommend now

25 is a very good starting point and if

you excuse me there are several

companies out there Paul

sir Phillip L people like that and you

know if you'd speak to their engineers

25 is probably a good starting point for

a lot of the applications that you have

so whether it be a cleaner whether it be

a pickle tank and also with your rinses

if you wanted to start at 25 and if you

say wow he says you know it's blinded up

weekly on me well maybe you can go down

a little bit less and even keep the tank

even cleaner if it's blinded up within

you know a couple minutes now you have

an option

do you take the tank and try to get it

all cleaned up first once and then see

how often to bag will plug or do you

just up size it a little bit and see if

you can get go with a 40 micron or a 50

micron and work your way down the other

option you have in again we don't use it

a lot in the in our industry but the

cartridges if in fact you wanted to go

with cartridge filtration one of the

things about cartridge filtration says

as they blind and they've media itself

hence the blind they filter out finer

and finer particulate so with some

people what they'll do with the

cartridge filtration you may start out

with a hundred micron cartridges inside

your your vessel and as the hundred

micron vessel as it takes out the

hundred micron particles or bigger beef

now the space that it can flow through

become smaller and smaller so that it'll

constantly filter it finer and finer and

finer until the cartridge is ultimately

plugged and it can't be used anymore so

sometimes you may see some information

telling you that if you go with the

cartridge filtration you may be able to

start out with a hundred and I've seen

that and what happened is is that as

cartridge becomes you know bind up it

allows finer and finer filtration it's a

place and it actually gets your tank

cleaner and cleaner so that is another

option

okay early on its what type of cleaner

is used for what type of chemicals used

for cleaning normally in a phosphate

line use an alkaline cleaner you have to

match it up with the soil if you're

going to be removing look you're going

to be moving oil before it goes in a

line if it's going to be removing

polymer for ygritte cleans so the

cleaner has to be matched up to the

soils you're looking at at the start of

a phosphate line would that be correct

Bob yes okay

regarding the inductors is this suitable

for acid baths also yes it is the

adductors again they're made out of your

different materials of construction

dependent upon the acid you know they

have them at 316 they have them in the

carpenter 20 alloy but a lot of people

are also using the polypro or kynar ones

for the acid types it's just a matter of

protecting them so if you're going to be

putting them into place just some type

of protection and it could be nothing

more than some angle brackets that if in

fact these spools should ever fall in

for whatever reason all the way down and

hit against them the angle brackets

would stop it from hitting onto the

adapter itself okay this so let's see

there's one question here see this might

be difficult what type nozzle selection

would you require to perform cleaning

and five to a11 middle millimeter wire

rod I think that would take some

laboratory work wouldn't it we would

want to calculate that a little bit

better yes I'm sorry yeah another

question what is red copper peppering

being in the chemical bath that would

that would be more of chemical and

outside your realm I believe yeah you

could handle that one yeah that's one if

you sent it we'll try to get you an

answer I'll have to get that from one of

the chemists that BASF maybe

probably here's the last question and

this is going to be a good one is the

system of analyzing the data in deciding

the dosage and chemical additions

self-correct the parameters something

like a level 2 automation I'm not sure

what level do foundation is can you

repeat this and I'm sorry it did the

first part of the question is the system

of self analyze the data there's a

system self analyze the data and decide

and do the chemical addition self

correcting the parameters so I guess

we're asking about the level 2

automation of the system if it goes in

will it automatically make the correct

dosages to the chemical bath to bring

them back in range yes it will and that

is the whole purpose of looking at these

you know the this type of system in that

you want something that's going to be

able to automatically correct it for you

there's several ways to do this if

you're looking at an oat oat I traitor

like I explained they would do the

titration they'll do the testing and

analysis they'll say ok look based on

that I am two points low and that two

points low may mean I need to feed in

five gallons of product and again you

have that calculation already set up

inside the auto titration system then we

would send a signal to the pump to feed

in that five gallons of product with a

flow meter find that it was okay when

it's done give the tank exactly you know

two minutes five minutes 10 minutes 20

minutes a half hour to recirculate and

then we would test it again to find out

where we're at so yes the whole idea

behind this is to try to have it so that

everything can automatically make these

changes and make the additions or in the

case of a rinse tank make the

subtraction to get rid of the high TDS

rinse water and allow fresh water to

come in so yeah that is what we were

which we try to do with these systems

well it appears we're out of time and I

want to thank everyone for joining us

today and Bob especially you for the

very informative and exciting and

interesting presentation so with that I

want to thank you for all the attendees

and look forward to hearing from you on

other topics you would like for webinars

thank you very much thank you all