Sherman Tank DSR2- Installed

Matt Todd
pollinator
Posts: 229
Location: Northwest Missouri
89

Here is part 3 of my RMH build. To recap, I built a 7" ceramic fiber board core following Peter van
den Bergs Double Shoebox Rocket II open system design (open system=no door, no secondary air
tube.) Then installed it into an old fuel oil tank. Then tested it in my driveway... and now here it is
installed in my shop!

Being in a shop with a sheet metal roof and slab floor, I was able to keep the install cheap and
simple. I will describe it from the ground up.
-Floor: I wanted to keep the metal tank off the floor, away from moisture. To do this I put it
on concrete pavers treated with a water repellent polymer. The floor was not level so I have some
metal shims on top of the blocks on one side.
-Stove body and core: Best explained with the diagram below and original build post. One
downside of the all CFB core is the fragility. It got scraped up a bit pulling it out and re-inserting it
after I rolled the tank into the building.
-Thermal Mass: Inside the stove body I have 6 pails of concrete. They're about 3/4 full so they
nest nicely. 3 on each side to make columns of thermal mass on either side of the core with room
for airflow around them. To tune the stove (changing the ratio of quick radiate heat vs longer
stored heat) I can add additional mass on the outside, such as bricks and/or cob.
- Flue: There is a stub of 8" flue bolted onto the stove body that sticks out of the stove. I have
sealed this with sand-clay mortar, a simple recipe of 1 part fire clay: 3 parts sand : water to desired
consistency.
- Chimney: 8" black stove pipe up to almost ceiling height, then a 5' piece of galvanized HVAC
pipe. I have used a draw-band to secure the galvanized to the black stove pipe since it sticks up
out of the roof and I wanted to prevent wind from rocking it around. This decision will draw
scrutiny. Usually you would/should use double wall insulated pipe to penetrate the roof for
combustion safety and helping draw (warm insulated chimney = better draw.) I'm cheap and
double wall is expensive... so I'm trying it this way first. Not too worried about the safety aspect
since the outside of the pipe at ceiling level never got above 60 degrees F, and it's just sheet
metal.
-Transition: I used a silicone flashing boot, large enough to accommodate a double wall stove
pipe if I decide to upgrade in the future. These are pretty neat since they conform to my
corrugated roof. Lots of screws and caulk!
-Cap: Supervent 6" cap. It's made for a double wall pipe so it fits on my 8" single wall pipe with a
bit of persuasion. Supposedly this cap uses the Venturi effect to turn wind into draft. It does not
quite meet the rules of 2' above roof level that's 10' away. Again, something I can upgrade if it
doesn't work out.

If this was in my home, I would follow all the rules that I bent and you should too!
First burns have gone great and were doggo approved. Now I can work in the shop without
electric heaters kicking breakers :)
Still need to upgrade my "door" with spark screens and eventually a re-design with glass so I can
see the fire better. Or even further upgrade to a secondary air tube and real door.
The long term goal is to get super comfortable with these design elements and do a much prettier
and sophisticated build inside the house.
Original Build Thread: https://permies.com/t/151576/Sherman-Tank-DSR-Rocket-Mass
Troubleshooting Thread: https://permies.com/t/152831/Open-System-DSR-Smoke
26-Installed.jpg

27-Chimney-Base.jpg
28-Chimney-ceiling.jpg
29-Chimney-Roof.jpg
30-Chimney-wide.jpg
31-Batteries.jpg
32-Sherman-Tank-Drawing.png
I don't own the plants, they own me.

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thomas rubino
Rocket Scientist

Posts: 4167
Location: latitude 47 N.W. montana zone 6A
1332

I like...

posted 1 month ago

1

Matt; Looking Great!

For a shop build nothing wrong with your roof exit. That pipe will never get hot enough to melt
your rubber seal much less start the roof on fire.
I don't like your stove cap though. Too restrictive and easily plugged. When it is really cold out
that hvac pipe will be losing heat quickly, you want your exhaust passing right on through not
stalling at the cap.
I have found the the cheapest "coolie" cap is all an RMH needs. Of course high wind areas might
be different.
Great job ! Excellent coverage for us to follow along. Keep the updates and photo's coming!
Remember where to get your secondary air tube and door from!
For all your Rocket Mass heater parts.
Visit me at
dragontechrmh.com

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Douglas Alpenstock
master pollinator
Posts: 1105
Location: Canadian Prairies - Zone 3b
279

posted 1 month ago

I had the exact same supervent cap (on double wall insulated pipe) at my old acreage. It worked
fine, never had a problem. I can't tell you if the venturi effect stuff is meaningful or hype; but the
system seemed well engineered overall.

The Sherman Tank DSR2 Rocket Mass Heater

Nov 20, 2020 at 3:54pm
Quote

Post by foxtatic on Nov 20, 2020 at 3:54pm

I am pleased to share my journey building "The Sherman Tank."
Because builds need fun names. Watching how others have built
heaters has helped me immensely, so now I'll share!

Goal- Make a powerful heater with a removable core for an poorly

insulated shop. Able to be moved. Able to add mass that can be fine
tuned.

Core choice- Peter Van Den Bergs DSR2 (Double Shoebox Rocket
version2) Selected because the shape lends itself to my build, it's
shape is such that it can be removed, it has a fun window which could
become a door and oven, it's super efficient, and it can be ran as a
simple open system (no door or secondary air tube, BUT those can be
added later in this design.)
Material choice- Ceramic Fiber Board for the core because it is light
weight, lending itself to removal. And because it's easier to work with
than castables or firebrick. A 300 gallon steel tank for the housing/bell
because I had the big ugly thing in my yard already and it fits the bill of
an inclusive shell that can be moved, rather than built in place from
things like brick and/or cob.

Sizing- I chose a 7 inch system to use with 8 inch flue pipe for better
guarantee on proper draw. Also liked 7 inch because it fit my firewood
and my tank. The one measurement you can adjust in a core is the
firebox length, which I took from 20 inches to 24 inches. This also
matched the longest edge of the CFB sheets. Someday I will move a
system into my home which has an existing chimney with 8 inch flue.

Problems- Despite the best advise not to, I ordered CFB online,
shipped to me. It was damaged. I was able to get a partial refund, but
freight or in-person buying is the correct way to go.

There is bad CFB out there, and that's what I got from Phoenix Supply.
It did not take the flame well. Spraying the pieces with sodium silicate
saved the day. Now instead of fraying, the CFB just gets harder. I did
have to water down the thick 40% sodium silicate solution by a third to
be able to spray it. A little blue dye helps you see where you've
covered.

I'll tell the build story mostly in pictures, but here are a few videos also:

-The initial CFB material test results. This was rather

disheartening youtu.be/lwmUGAVHQtk

-The smokeback at the beginning of the burn, likely caused by me still

figuring out how to properly light the thing! I was able to fan it back to
start the proper burn path youtu.be/JXbv9jMCT7k

-The roaring takeoff of secondary combustion. A great pleasure to

behold in real life youtu.be/DS-EtrIa7iA

-Even smokeless burning at about the 20 minute mark. I bet it would

have been sooner if I had lit properly (plus the tank
residue) youtu.be/hI91G6SjNl8
Using an infrared temp gun, I got the following readings:

500 to 550 degree F Max top temp right above the exit port of the core.
Otherwise tank top was 400 to 500.

200 degrees at flue base (where it meets the tank top) but 180 above
that.

Towards the end of the burn the whole tank read more evenly around
300 degrees.

Conclusion- Well over a year ago, I started studying rocket mass

heaters. And to build one, it takes lots of studying! You have to
determine your goals, your style, your materials, then run into obstacles
until you hammer out something that will then need a bunch more
refinements. Special thanks to Peter Van Den Berg, Matt Walker,
Thomas Rubio, Gerry Parent, and all the folks on Donkey's board. Most
of this core came from studying the 31 pages of Peters DSR2 build
here: donkey32.proboards.com/thread/3503/double-shoebox-rocket-
mark-ii

Next up- I'll do an update post when I move it into the shop. This will
include how I'll add thermal mass, and how the chimney will interface.

Any comments, criticisms, and questions are welcome!

CFB damaged from shipping.

My cheap CFB could not stand the heat.
Treating with sodium silicate made cheap CFB "Super CFB." No more
fraying.
Tested all measurements and sizing with foam before cutting CFB.
Excessive maybe, but I discovered a few design mistakes.
All parts ready for sodium silicate treatment.
Stainless screws used in high heat exposed areas.
Three inches may seem excessive for the stub, but per design notes
the riser stub must be "less wide" than the fire box and top box.
Nubs from shipping damage trimmed and re-treated. Gaps stuffed with
super wool.
The ugly tank in my back yard will get an upcycled new life. It's best to
just do these things without telling your wife your intentions.
foxtatic
New
Member

Posts:
26
Member
is
Online

Angle grinder and reciprocating saw did the job.

Drained 2 gallons of fuel, scraped the sides, and pushed sludge the
sludge out.
Bath by fire to clean the residue out. Torch kept going out in the tank
because DUH, it was eating all the oxygen.
1/2 inch holes and a few jig saw blades. Torching the inside got a lot
easier after this additional hole.
Paint removed with scraper and flap disc on the angle grinder.
Flue suspended 8 inches from floor, spaced one inch off back wall with
extra nuts.
Didn't quite fit, needed a little more grinding.
The Sherman Tank! Stainless eye bolt that acts as the bypass handle is
visible up top.
Wood and sticks likely too damp to be good fuel, but burned fine.
Soot and condensation quickly burned off.
 Discolored firebox but CFB in good shape.

fuegos Nov 21, 2020 at 9:05am

Junior Quote
Member

Post by fuegos on Nov 21, 2020 at 9:05am

WOW ! Great build and well documented . Looking forward to seeing
the finished stove .What sort of mass material are you thinking of
adding ?
Posts: 88

Nov 21, 2020 at 3:42pm

Orange Quote
Full
Member
Post by Orange on Nov 21, 2020 at 3:42pm
love the story and documentation! I had problems with smoke
comming out in test phase so deceided to build door.

Does it work without bypass? How big of a space you're heating

and how's it performing?
Posts: 449

Last Edit: Nov 21, 2020 at 3:43pm by Orange

Nov 21, 2020 at 10:42pm via mobile
Quote

Post by foxtatic on Nov 21, 2020 at 10:42pm

foxtatic
New
Member

Nov 21, 2020 at 9:05am fuegos said:

Posts: WOW ! Great build and well documented . Looking forward to seeing
26 the finished stove .What sort of mass material are you thinking of
Member adding ?
is
Online
Thanks! It's got a lot of tinkering ahead of it but I'm happy so far. If not
just to see that secondary burn in real life:)

I'll start with mass inside. A stack of concrete filled metal pails on each
side of the core. I'm real close to the prescribed internal surface area
now, and the concrete batteries will get me there. After that, maybe
start ringing bricks around the outside.

Nov 21, 2020 at 10:49pm via mobile

Quote
 Post by foxtatic on Nov 21, 2020 at 10:49pm

foxtatic
New
Member

Nov 21, 2020 at 3:42pm Orange said:

love the story and documentation! I had problems with smoke comming
out in test phase so deceided to build door.

Posts: Does it work without bypass? How big of a space you're heating and
26 how's it performing?
Member
is
Online

Haven't tried to start it without the bypass, but runs fine when I give it a
few mins open then close the gate. It will go in a 30x30 shop. Bit
overkill maybe but that shop might get bigger some day and theres
little insulation. Dunno because I haven't moved it inside yet. Wanted a
few test runs outside first so I can learn how to best light it without
smoke back. Which may mean a door like you experienced.
But a door requires a secondary air tube as I understand it. Did you
start without one of those too and add it with your door? Or did you
have a tube and no door?
gadget Nov 22, 2020 at 12:18am
Full Quote
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Post by gadget on Nov 22, 2020 at 12:18am

Nice heater. It will be interesting to see how the sodium silicate does.
Another option is a face coat if your having trouble with the CFB. I've
destroyed 2300F Ceramic Fiber Blanket in less then 2 dozen burns.
Posts:
302

Nov 22, 2020 at 10:35am

Quote

Post by Orange on Nov 22, 2020 at 10:35am

Orange
Full
Member

Nov 21, 2020 at 10:49pm foxtatic said:

But a door requires a secondary air tube as I understand it. Did you
Posts: start without one of those too and add it with your door? Or did you
449 have a tube and no door?
I'm building classic closed dsr2 with floor channel. Figured since one
needs door anyway (like a frame with steel mesh to protect against
sparks) it's not a big deal to make a flooor channel.

And I noticed you don't have any box/frame around the core which can
be useful if CFB breakes or screws loosen up.

patamos Nov 22, 2020 at 4:03pm

Senior Quote
Member
Post by patamos on Nov 22, 2020 at 4:03pm
nice experiment

in my experience, adding a coat of sodium silicate or furnace cement

Posts: to the inner surface of CFB only last a short while. The hard material
615 wants to expand and contract and soon delaminates from its softer
substrate, taking a thin layer of fuzz with it.

Nov 23, 2020 at 1:29pm

Quote

Post by foxtatic on Nov 23, 2020 at 1:29pm

foxtatic
New
Member

Nov 22, 2020 at 4:03pm patamos said:

nice experiment
 in my experience, adding a coat of sodium silicate or furnace cement to
the inner surface of CFB only last a short while. The hard material
wants to expand and contract and soon delaminates from its softer
Posts: substrate, taking a thin layer of fuzz with it.
26 That issue with sodium silicate is what I kept hearing, but in my
Member experience it's not a coating. My CFB soaks it right up, so it's absorbed
is rather than just making a shell on the outside. This could be because I
Online have some poor quality CFB discussed
here donkey32.proboards.com/thread/3715/cfb-heat-test-bad-
material

I was satisfied with how a treated sample stood up to the yard torch on
full blast (glowing red in the picture) so I proceeded with the build. I'd
like to get my hands on a sample of everybody else's normal CFB to
see how it's different. Mine is so absorbent that a piece got wet and
moldy just sitting with an edge on the concrete floor!

Nov 23, 2020 at 4:11pm

martyn Quote
Full
Member
Post by martyn on Nov 23, 2020 at 4:11pm
From my own experience Water glass works really well on CFB, it
soaks in and sets hard as glass!
I use around 4-6 coats or until the surface stops absorbing the liquid
and it starts to float on top, it then needs some heat to set hard.
Posts: I dont have any long term results to report but after five or six firings
163 the CFB still have a hard smooth finish.
However, the product i brought is not cheap and it does seem to take
a fair few painted on coats to get a decent coating.
serg247 Nov 23, 2020 at 5:04pm
Junior Member Quote

Post by serg247 on Nov 23,

2020 at 5:04pm
www.ecologieforum.eu/viewtopic.php?
f=3&t=4610

The mountain can not be conquered, it

can allow it to ascend...
Posts: 82
patamos Nov 24, 2020 at 12:30am
Senior Member Quote

Post by patamos on Nov 24, 2020 at 12:30am

I could be wrong about the straight application of sodium
silicate.
The stuff i have used is quite thick, like a syrup, so it didn't
soak in much at all.
Posts: 615 maybe the deep penetration makes a big difference

Nov 24, 2020 at 9:58am

Quote

Post by foxtatic on Nov 24, 2020 at 9:58am

foxtatic
New
Member

Nov 24, 2020 at 12:30am patamos said:

I could be wrong about the straight application of sodium silicate.
The stuff i have used is quite thick, like a syrup, so it didn't soak in
Posts: much at all.
26 maybe the deep penetration makes a big difference
Member Interesting. The two different sources of sodium silicate I had were also
is both syrup thick, but they soaked right into my crappy CFB. So easily
Online that I could not apply with a brush because it sucked the material in
and I could not get any coverage. I gave up on dabbing it on and went
to spray application.
Too thick to go through a sprayer, that's for sure! 1 part water to 2 parts
Sodium Silicate was enough to get it flowing.

Seems like there is a lot of inconsistency between CFB products, even

though they have a very consistent heat rating and density across the
board.

pianomark Nov 24, 2020 at 11:33am Orange likes this

New Quote
Member

Post by pianomark on Nov 24, 2020 at 11:33am

It stands to reason that the insulation value of CFB will decrease in
 proportion to the amount of sodium silicate absorbed. Not saying the
idea has no merit, just something to be aware of. In other words,
don't overdo it.

Posts: 41

Vortex Nov 24, 2020 at 11:34am

Senior Quote
Member

Post by Vortex on Nov 24, 2020 at 11:34am

Wouldn't soaking CFB in waterglass fill the air gaps between the
fibers and result in the loss of most of it's insulation properties?

Posts: 992 Vortex Stove

Nov 24, 2020 at 12:26pm foxtatic likes this

Quote

Post by martyn on Nov 24, 2020 at 12:26pm

In my case it soaks in around 2mm below the ceramic board surface , it is
possible to fully soak ceramic matting.
Nov 24, 2020 at 2:30pm
Quote

Post by foxtatic on Nov 24, 2020 at 2:30pm

foxtatic
New
Member

Nov 24, 2020 at 11:34am Vortex said:

Wouldn't soaking CFB in waterglass fill the air gaps between the fibers
Posts:
and result in the loss of most of it's insulation properties?
26
A valid concern for sure. A sample I cut open was still fluffy in the
middle. And I accept some loss of insulation for what I gained in
abrasion/fraying resistance with the super soft CFB I had. Especially
since my riser stub is 3 inches thick.

I have no doubt the pros and cons of waterglass would be weighed

differently with a better quality CFB. I just know I wouldn't have been
able to use this poor quality CFB at all without it.