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txt

Thanks ;
From: Gene Richardson
201 Countryview Drive
Harrison, Ohio
45030
----------------
Expect six emails due to size. This being 'PART ONE'.
=================
[[[[[[ Recommended starting capacitor value is; 70 microfarads per horsepower.
[[[[[[ Recommended run-cap(balance) value is; 12 mfd per horsepower.

Email me any questions about this info you feel I may be able to help with.

I'm including a pic (runcaps.jpg) to show a possible position for running capacitors, although in 30 years
of use I have never actually felt the need for them myself. Some woodworkers might want to use them.
Woodworking tools tend to tax a motor at or near full torque much more often than a machine has the
need to.

A woodworker would do well to use a larger converter. A machinist can usually just use a lower gear.

Hope this info is as useful for you as it has been for me.

Gene
======================

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This collection of clips is from an ongoing conversation with a fella who needed to build a
rotary phase converter for a CNC mill. His was just enough out of the ordinary so as to allow
this description to have some value to others. He graciously made a point of telling me that it
was ok to pass on our conversation since it can help others.

25, Sep 2001

I have bought an old CNC mill and need 200v +- 10% 25 kva (about 65 amps if I have converted
it right)in order to run it. It has a 7.5 hp spindle and it looks like it is the only thing that
is actually 3 phase the control circuit is 100v.

The amount of crazyness that I have gone thru with the local power company and the county govt.
just trying to get 3 phase for this machine is just way too much!

I would be very interested in your plans and my question is, do you include the "mods" that
I may have to make to the system to run this CNC with your plans included and if not how can
I find out about them?

---seperate email
I have a question, I will be using a 30hp 200v 3ph motor and am not sure what size the start
capacitor should be, any ideas? Also this will be used for a cnc so I would be interested in
any ideas you have for "conditioning" the current produced to avoid any damage to the machine.
by the way I am a machinist and do not know a lot about electrical work so please keep it simple.

For anything over 15 horsepower I use a pony motor if I can. A smaller used motor can be found
and coupled to the larger one with a conway type clutch or through pully's. The capacitance
required for larger motors can be kinda expensive and might someday have to be replaced. Motors
if good have a really good lifespan compared to caps. By using a pony motor to spin up the
large one the cap expense is avoided 'along with' the 'starting power surge' of 3 to 6 times
the running current of the typical motor. For me, this is a good long term payoff for some
additional work and complexity.
-----

25, Sep 2001

If the one motor is the only thing that sees 3phase then I hafta tell you that lots of people
use a phase converter to supply only the motor. That way the control never sees the manufactured
3phase anyway. But 200v ?? Do you mean 220 3phase ?
----
25, Sep 2001
Thanks for responding, I will be getting your plans as soon as I finish this e-mail and get it
sent. I would like to run this machine off 3-phase totally because I know that it runs OK like
that (I do CNC programming and I have been writing programs for it for about 5 years and it has
never even missed a beat in all that time). If it works don't mess with it, it has been running
off 208 3-ph all that time and the documentation that I got with it says 200 +- 10%, I have no
problem with using a buck/boost trans. to get the voltage down to a reasonable level (my "220"
service where I am at is 244.5v on two different multimeters!) but not knowing how the system
you are using works I need to know if this is possible.

This machine is a "automotive" (not meant for export) Toyoda machine and they are the best
CNC's of their era. The thing is full of large transformers and I do not want to screw the
machine up by trying to separate out the functions, I have looked at the schematic but I
just don't want to fool around with it. I will close now and go and bid, I have a gut
feeling that this machine (as long as you do not get too out of the park) will accept anything
within reason, these things have a reputation of being bulletproof up to a point, and in Japan
there was a wide variance of available currents and voltages in the mid 80's, (the vintage of
this machine)
----
26, Sep 2001
Typically when using a rotary phase converter(even commercial ones), it is very common for
the manufactured leg to be lower in voltage than the other two and possibly higher in
amperage because of it.

Attempts to balance them are usually done by adding a runcap of 12 mfd per hp between an

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original and the manufactured leg.

However since you seem comfortable with buck/boost methods then you should do ok, you
should be able to coax it to where you want it.
----
26, Sep 2001
By the way what is a "runcap"? I am not familiar with that term.
----
Thanks for responding, I will be getting your plans as soon as I finish this e-mail
and get it sent.
----
26 Dec, 2001
I have been working on my 3 phase project off and on since I got the info from you about this.
I have run into a snag and I thought that you might be able to shed some light on what is wrong.

The setup I have constructed is fairly simple and it consists of a 30hp 3 phase motor on a
frame that also contains a 3/4 hp single phase [pony] motor working thru a movable idler wheel
to spin the 3 phase motor up to about 1000 rpm (picture attached) at which time I throw the
switch to connect the 200v single phase power to l1 and l2 on the 3 phase motor. The problem
is that as soon as power is applied the 3 phase motor "growls" and stops like a brake has been
applied, it does this regardless of which direction it is spun up! Maybe I have wired it
wrong or there is something wrong with the 3 phase motor I am using. I wondered if you have
encountered anything like this in working with these setups, the motor I am using shows an
"across the line starting" setup and that is how I wired it (picture of the motor plate
and this diagram is attached).

Any thoughts you have or ways that I could diagnose this problem are appreciated.

P.S. the current supplied is 210v 125amp single phase.

----
Dave:
I am not familiar with that
me. Does the note have to do
'partial' winding for a 'soft
wiring label. Also the mention of 'part winding motors' is new to
with a 'built in timer' of some kind. Sounds like it might mean
start'.(Ed: "Turned out to be 'partial winding' for 'soft start'.").

Are there 9 wires available in the hookup box or only 6 ?

----
27, Dec 2001
I think the part winding motors thing is for some kind of soft start. I went to the us motors
web site and read some of their stuff on it and it seems to be to start with minimal current so
I will try wiring it that way and see what it does but I do not really think that is the problem,
there should be plenty of power available for a normal start, and even so the very heavy armature
is turning at 1000rpm and comes to a halt quickly as soon as power is applied.
There are only 6 wires available in the box
----
A good spin should allow it to start. But a good spin means about like 6 or 7 wraps of
clothesling
around the shaft and a healthy smooth pull up to at least a few hundred rpm. There is a point
where
it will continue and accellerate but below this it will sink back to the vibration thing of single
phasing. With your particular motor having a 'soft start' winding it may require more rpm to
stabalize and continue running.
----
5, Jan 2002
I will try that, a buddy of mine has some old 3ph motors that he bought at an auction, he is
going to look at them and see if any have a 286t frame (the frame I welded up for the pony motor
is
designed for this size) if so we will just replace the existing motor and try another. I think
that
I could get away with about 20 hp. if necessary, machine I am trying to run with this is only 7.5
hp

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rms but it is a cnc and has to power a hydraulic pump and the dc servo motors as well as the
control.
----
is how the circuit is now. I have 4 160 mfd caps that would maybe enough to start the motor but
I imagine that I will have to get more if they are needed (50 x 30hp = 1500 mfd and I will have
only about 640). I also have 750 mfd of oil filled caps that I have not installed yet that I
intend to use as run caps
----
Your right. I musta started several hundred of them by now by simply spinning the shaft. I've
made
some with a poney motor coupled to them in various ways (belted or direct clutch). Some start much
easier than others. The only way I have ever found out was just to try them. If one will 'not'
start
by spinning it then it would surprise me. I would suspect something may be 'not' standard when
that
happened. I've not had one of my own that wouldnt start by spinning.

I would expect a 'high speed' motor to require 'more' speed to start than a low speed one though.
----
All the motors I have been working with are either 1725/1750 rpms I have the idea that the
lower
speed ones were better for these projects. The big motor is set up to be spun to about 1000 rpm
but
I can remachine the roller on the pony motor to get it up to more if you think it would help.
It is currently "geared" at (pony)1.6 to 1(3ph motor) thru an idler wheel that swings away if I
can ever get the dammed thing to start.
----
4, Jan 2002
Maybe 'soft start' and maybe 'braking action' also.

Well so long as it isnt going to 'hurt' the motor I dont see any reason not to try spinning
it up faster.
----
5, Jan 2002
In order to try and isolate the problem with the motor I took a 5HP 3ph motor off an old air
compressor that I have out back and hooked it up to my setup, it is wired for 208 and has the
normal 9 leads 456 jumped 1-7 2-8 3-9 with t1 to 1-7 and t2 to 2-8.

Sounds normal.

I did not use the pony motor to start it but just spun it with a rope (one time it started by
itself) it does not seem to care which direction it runs and does spin under its own power but
only about

Also normal.

30 or 40 rpm and can never seem to gain any more speed. it also makes a pronounced buzzing sound
that cycles with rpm's.

The buzzing would be expected if it were 'not' spun up to a high enough rpm or if the leads were
of
too small a size and 30 or 40 rpm sounds like it may be single phasing.

I only left it on a few seconds but I do not think it would have ever gained any more speed.
The
casing was warm to the touch after only 3 or 4 starts each lasting only 3-5 seconds so unless I
have

Yes, 'single phasing' will allow one to heat up. I think it needs to be
spun up to a higher rpm before it will sync and accelerate to full rpm.

gotten two bad motors in a row (and the compressor ran when it was removed in August) there must

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be
something else wrong. Any ideas as to how to diagnose what is happening?

>From what your describing and assuming your start cap is the right value (or at least close) and
circuit is wired right then I dont know why it wouldnt work. Spin it up to a higher speed before
energizing it.

Well from this response I think I see where I am going wrong, I had got the idea that a good
spin on
the three phase was enough to start it going without a start cap at all, if this is incorrect let
me
know as that is how the circuit is now. I have 4 160 mfd caps that would maybe enough to start
the motor but I imagine that I will have to get more if they are needed (50 x 30hp = 1500 mfd and
I will have only about 640).
I also have 750 mfd of oil filled caps that I have not installed yet that I intend to use as
run caps to balance the 3 phase once I manage to produce it (350 on 1-3 400 on 2-3) does that
sound
about right?

Again, I have been under the impression (maybe wrong) that start caps would not be needed if
the
3 phase motor was spun mechanically to get it started.

And your right!

[If its a standard motor and you spin it fast enough you 'will not' need the starting caps.

P.S. the leads are #4 wire and the circuit (single phase 220) should be good for about 100 amps,
certainly enough to start the 5hp and should be enough to start and run the 30hp if I am not far
off in my calculations.
----

7, Jan 2002
Thought I would drop you a line and let you know that with a little experimentation and ratio
juggling I have everything working beautifully! The 30HP motor starts with no fuss and does not
even cause the lights to dim!

I will start balancing the run caps tomorrow and with any luck will have
the CNC machines running by the end of the week.

Thanks again for the advice and input on this system, you were a great
help and helped me save a couple of thousand bucks!
----

10, Jan 2002

Well, glad you got it going. Sounds good. What turned out to be the problem.?

As near as I can tell the motor I am using for the idler is a 'sychronous' motor and has to be
spun up to about 80% of it's running speed before it starts, at first I was only spinning it up
to around 800 rpm or so. I doubled the size of the 'gear' on the pony motor (for around 1600
rpm) and it started with no problem, in fact there was so little fuss that I did not realize it
was running at first! I guess I had gotten used to a lot of growling and weird effects when I
switched it on that I expected it!

================================================
I'm guessing that the 'soft start' function is what caused this machine to require being spun up
to this high an rpm for starting. Because the soft start circuit would limit initial current
level.
================================================
Just a quick question about caps, and connections on my setup I have l1 going to t1 on the
motor
l2 to t2 and t3 is the "manufactured" leg, does this make any difference? does which leg goes
where

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to the machine you are running make any difference (except direction). The machine that I am
hooking up to has a designation of R0, S0 and T0 at the hookup panel. It looks like T1 went to R0
T2 to S0 and T3 to T0 at the shop where it was R0 was coded with blue and S0 with red does any of
that sound familiar or standard to you? I plan to hook it up as above but do not know any way to
check if this is right, any ideas?

Anyway I am gettin there so I will go back to making my wiring 'looms'

for the capicitors, trying to get as close to 208 across all 3 as I can.
----

Just wanted to drop you a line with a couple of pix on my 3ph converter project. Started the
CNC today with only a couple of problems (had to reverse t1 and t2) and had a hydraulic hose
leaking where the riggers abraded it. Once those were fixed the machine ran good! No control or
spindle problems (correct direction rpm etc.) Was able to up and down load programs and ran a
couple of simple ones. Here is some info for you as to what I ended up doing to balance the
phases for cnc applications.

30 hp 3 phase converter

470uf 350uf caps between legs in parallel

1 - 2 1 - 3 2 - 3
211 V 221 V 219 V

This was with machine on (control, hydraulics, chiller, and servos) but no
movement or spindle rotation.

Again thanks for all the help on this project, if you do a little
homework I think you could power any CNC with this approach.
----

15, Jan 2002

You've gone an dunnit now. The engineers, the electricians and all the
commercial converter manufacturers are probably gonna have a hit out on ya.

It's funny how you can kick a rat your a hero but when you do what you did
here your stealin from their kids mouth's.

The one thing I'd really like to know is what the comparable converter would cost commercially.
I'm sure it would cost a few more bucks than what you've spent. Course the nice box and
additional wiring would not come with it.

I looked at just about all the commercial guys out there and the prices for a converter that
they guaranteed to be +-10% CNC compatible that would be big enough to run the machine I have
(their recommendations ranged from 25 to 40hp) were from about $3500 to around $7000.

My costs were $200 for a 30hp 200v used motor bought from a local motor repair shop,
(has new bearings). this was cheap because nobody wants 200v motors, most want 208/240/440 types.

pony motor 3/4 hp Dayton $50 (used) capacitors $330 (bought new from Grainger)

Buck boost transformer $225 plus $175 shipping (used) most people would not need this, it is
due to the needs of my machine (200v +-10) and the very high line current supplied by the local
utility (245-255V) where I live... I would have had to buy this even with a commercial converter.

The folks that I bought the CNC from were closing down so they let me get off with the box as
well as the conduit and many feet of #4 httn wire (not to mention enough copper tubing and
fittings to do the air lines in my new shop) so I was lucky there.

The only other expenses were building the frame and machining my starting mechanism which I
did myself from scrap that I had laying around, many folks would have to pay to have this done
but it should be no more than about $200.

I am sure I have forgotten some of the expenses but I am sure I got in

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under $1000 even with the transformer!

Appreciate the pictures and the info. Lots of people need the
encouragement of knowing that someone else has done it.

Thats why I include the photo's with the info I send out.

The CNC machine is rated in kW but it works out to about 10hp at the spindle, of course on a
CNC
there is a bunch of other stuff to run. That is why I opted to build the converter from a 30hp
motor.
Yes, I used a pony because I did not want to stress the power setup around here, I am in a semi
rural area and my shop has only 100a service running to it, also I did not want to "brown out" or
cause my neighbors' lights to flicker when I started the idler. Also to get a 30hp to start
quickly with caps would take a lot of caps .. and finally I am a firm KISS (keep it simple
stupid) design advocate!

When I start the thing my lights do not even flicker as it is already

turning around 1500 rpm.

I'm glad you were willing to do that 'homework'. Looks like it can pay off
for you.

I am very happy with this setup and would encourage anyone who wants to
do this to buy your plans .. and you are certainly welcome to tell em I said
so!

Again thanks for all the help and advice/e-mails it sure helps to have
someone to clarify and bounce ideas off of!
----

Thank you 'very' much for the insight. I could not 'read into' anything you say that I would
have
considered differently. I think you picked all the right options given your circumstance. Myself I
will opt for a 'pony motor' anytime I go above 10 hp. Its just so easy to find a small 'throw
away'
motor and so easy to do that the cost of more caps just isnt justified when for starting ya gotta
know
that sooner or later your probably going to have to replace them.

Thanks. Your 'experience' seems to be a perfect example of how we manage to 'survive'.

If you'd like to see this same info on the website and larger pictures its;
http://www.isoc.net/generic/cnc.htm

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