Re: What is the basic principle of vibration measurement by BENTLY NEVADA

vibration measurement system? and Why it gives the -ve voltage output

This is a very good, accurate writeup done by someone

else
for a similar question earlier on. Hope it helps.

The vibration sensors used in turbine, generator etc are

all
same type i.e proximity type of sensors. The sensor are
mounted at the proximity of the Turbine and generator
rotor.
From the sensors one coaxial cable runs to the
proximater,
which is mounted in a separate JB nearby. From TSI
Monitors,
this Vibration probes gets +24 Volts DC. The proximater
gives a signal 0 to -22.4 Volts DC depending upon the
vibration measured by the sensor. Generally the distance
between the probe tip and the rotor is maintained such
that
it gives -10 Volts DC when the turbine is not running.

The sensor works on eddy current principle. As the rotor

vibration increases, the eddy current generation remains
constant, but the absorption of power in terms of eddy
current increases. This loss of power is sensed by the
proximater and DC voltage signal is transmitter to TSI
monitor for Measurement, Controlling & Indication
purpose.
Good luck
As a 20-year Bently Nevada employee, and as someone
responsible for answering such questions over the years
within our company as well as externally, allow me to
explain the rather interesting circumstances behind the
use
of negative voltages (-24 vdc) for powering eddy current
vibration oscillator/demodulator devices. I will then
proceed to explain the operating principles behind the
eddy
current proximity probe and how it converts physical gap
between the probe and its target into a voltage.
First, the question of negative voltage. The short
answer
is that When Don Bently worked on making solid-state
versions of the eddy-current measurement system (it was
actually originally designed in the 1930s by GE engineers
using vacuum tubes), he had a choice between using N-P-N
transistors or P-N-P transistors. At the time,
transistors
were quite expensive, so he chose the least expensive of
the two: P-N-P (apparently, PNP transistors they were
less
expensive to manufacture 50 years ago than their NPN
counterparts).

Because the circuits used PNP transistors, a negative

bias
voltage was required rather than a positive bias voltage.
Don chose -18V. This was later changed to -24V to allow
more linear range from the transducer.

At that time, the industrial instrumentation community

had
not yet standardized on +24 vdc, and by the time they
did,
there were so many Bently Nevada eddy current vibration
sensors installed that changing to +24V rather than -24V
was not greeting with enthusiasm by users. Hence, it has
remained -24V to this day.

This was not a deliberate effort to "be different" or

"non-
conformist" on the part of Bently Nevada. It was quite
literally based on which components were the least
expensive when the technology was originally introduced
50-
plus years ago.

Now, the question of how an eddy-current proximity probe

works:
An eddy-current probe works by passing an alternating
current through a coil of wire and measuring the coil’s
impedance. This impedance changes when the probe is
brought
near an electrically conductive material and the
impedance
change is proportional to the physical gap between the
coil
and the conductive target. The sensing electronics in
turn
convert this impedance change to a voltage, providing an
electrical output directly proportional to physical gap.

The above is an excerpt from a recent article in our

ORBIT
technical journal. You can read the full-length article
here:

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/oc/en/orbit/dow
nlo
ads/1Q09_Prox_Probes.pdf

Here are some other articles that may also prove helpful
in
understanding how proximity probes work in actual
machinery
vibration/position measurement applications:

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/oc/en/orbit/dow
nlo
ads/1q01sabin3.pdf

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/oc/en/orbit/dow
nlo
ads/1293jordan.pdf

Finally, I am including a link to a datasheet for our 8mm

proximity probe system. Although it does not go into a
lot
of detail on principles of operation, you may find some
useful information therein.
Should you have additional questions, please contact the
undersigned.
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8
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2
includes gas flow, pressure, and temperature.
why we use 24v dc in instrument rahter than
3
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L&T 3
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What is the purpose of MATLAB? 1

I saw one P&ID 6" control valve has been
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reason. please clarify. With Regards-Kittu
What means zero and span in transmitter callibration. Wartsila 1 147

what are the programming languages used in dcs 1 117

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Honeywell 0 34
instrumentation system?
In a class of 150 students, 40 passed in Social
Studies, 90 passed in Science and 30 failed in both
Cipla 0 24
the subjects. vi)How many students passed in at most
one subject among Science and Social Science?
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1 32
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testing of thermo-couple? 1 190

you must show the examples application and give at
least 4 types of transducer/sensors that can minimize DEWA 0 52
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is value at 10k ohms each but when the resistors
reach the quality control, some of the resistor has
been rejected caused by failure in manufacturing.the
high quality measurement is used to determine the
0 49
failure. describe the instrumentation terminology in
measurement of a system above with explaining the
important in:- -reliability -sensitivity -repeatability
-precision -range -resolution -linearity -hysteresis
-error -accuracy (answer must related to the scenario
above)
HOW TO CALIBRATE A PRESSURE SWITCH? 1 491
HOW TO CALIBRATE A DRUM LEVEL
0 69
TRANSMITTER
how can we measure the level measurement with the
Reliance 2 447
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Draw block digram for well head from well to
0 37
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what is the well head protection system? 1 101
1.What means zero and span in transmitter callibration.

Yes there are two adjustments in transmitter and

positioners i.e ZERO and SPAN adjustment.

For example, if we calibrate the level transmitter for 4

to
20 mA with the range of 0 mmH2o to 5000 mmH20, for 0
mmH2o
we must get 4 mA and if it not 4 mA(say 4.5mA) means, we
start to adjust the zero adjustment to make 4 mA for 0
mmH2o.
And for 5000 mmH2o we must get 20 mA and if it not 20 mA
(say 19.69 mA) means, we start to adjust the span to 20
mA.
This is the way to calibrate the transmitter with the
help
of zero and span adjustment.

Re: what are the programming languages used in dcs

Answer ladder logic, statement list,
# 1 functional block,and atill
more two is there ...
Re: if in a level tx height is given, how u calculate the ranges of the tx?
Answer In case of Dry Leg
# 1 Span = (X)(Gl)
Hw at minimum level = (Z)(Gs)+(Y)
(Gl)
Hw at maximum level = (Z)(Gs)+
(X+Y)(Gl)

In case of Wet Leg

Span = (X)(Gl)
Hw at minimum level = (Y)(Gl)-(d)
(Gs)
Hw at maximum level = (X+Y)(Gl)-
(d)(Gs)

Gl=Specific gravity of tank liquid

Gs=Specific gravity of seal liquid
Hw=Equivalent head of Water
 X=Max level
Y=Min level
Z=Distance b/w Datum and
Transmitter.

Re: what is the formula for calculating milliampere at different pressure

points for eg 4-20 ma = 3-15 psi but if i have to check the ma at 4.6
ma?
Answer 12 4 Nick
# 1 -- = .75 x 4.6= 3.45
16

9
Yes
Is This Answer Correct ?
1 No

Re: what is the formula for calculating milliampere at different pressure

points for eg 4-20 ma = 3-15 psi but if i have to check the ma at 4.6 ma?
Answer as per as nick formula it is not 3 Lalchhotex
# 2 fullfill anoter range like [BBDIL
as 0-100 for level, 0-14 for PH Aligarh]
formula is
16*(unknow value-Low
end of rang)
mA O/P = 4+
--------------------------------
-
transmitter span
Suppose range is 3-15 PSI
according to question what is
the
psi for 4.6 mA
by the formula
4.6-4 =16*(unknow value-3PSI)
----------------------
12 PSI
0.6*12PSI
--------- = (unknow value-
3PSI)
16
7.2 psi
------- = (unknow value-
3PSI)
 16
0.45 psi = (unknow value-
3PSI)

0.45psi+3psi = unknow value

psi

3.45 PSI = unknow value

psi answer

10
Yes
Is This Answer Correct ?
0 No

Re: what is the formula for calculating milliampere at different pressure

points for eg 4-20 ma = 3-15 psi but if i have to check the ma at 4.6 ma?
Answer 4~20mA=3~15psi 0 Gunasekaran
#3
4.6mA=?psi

psi =(mA -mA Zero)/(mA

Span)×Range Span+Range Zero

4.6-4
psi = ------ x 12+3
16

0.6
psi = ---- x 12+3
16

psi = 0.0375 x 12+3

psi = 3.45

4.6mA = 3.45psi

Is This Answer Correct ? 1

Yes 0 No
 Re: what is the formula for calculating milliampere at different pressure
points for eg 4-20 ma = 3-15 psi but if i have to check the ma at 4.6 ma?
Answer this is the one of the best
# 4 formula for this situation
measuring value (1) - low
ranmeasge value (1)/span
=
measuring value (2) - low range
value (2)/span
u know span high value - low
value 4 to 20 span is =16
3 to 15 span is = 12
simple
mv1 - lrv1 = mv2 - lrv2
span span
4.6-4/16= ?-3/12 =
4.3psi ans

0
Yes
Is This Answer Correct ?
0 No

Re: Wht is Dry Leg Calibration and Wet Leg Calibration?

Answer Dry leg calibration and Wet Leg 0 Solomon
# 1 Calibration are used for
closed and pressurized vessels
level measurement.
Difference:
Wet leg calibration is used
for vapourised liquid(which
will be condensated by
atmosphere)level.In LP side
Tapping ,liquid filled .
Dry leg calibration for the
liquid under pressurised
condition which will not be
condensated.
 48
Yes
Is This Answer Correct ?
12 No

Re: Wht is Dry Leg Calibration and Wet Leg Calibration?

Answer Dry leg is where the low
# 2 pressure side is vented to
ATM.,
and the vessel is open to ATM.
Wet leg is where the vessel
is closed and the low side is
connectd to the top bridle.
With each type the "legs" wil
be filled with an inert fluid
with a higher density then the
fluid in th evessel all has
to be taken into consideration
when calibrating
instruments. I can normally hit
a percent error of 1
%. Hope this helped the guy has
no idea what he is talking
about.
Other communication methods 0 Anwar
suppose RS232 are having Azim
constrains for long
distance communication and
require
repeater after some
distance and are prone to
external
disturbances.4-20mA is not
prone to external
disturbances
and the cabling can be done
for long distances with out
any
effect on signal.

0
Yes
Is This Answer Correct ?
8 No
 Re: Why do we go for 4-20mA? why
not other standara?
Answer in 0 Muthu
#2 communication,
some loss
occurs . if we
sent 0-20 mA
signal through
comunication,
0-4 mA
vanishes due
to loss.
so 4-20 mA
current signal
are preferred
in standard.

2
Is This Ye
Answer s
Correct ? 3 No

Re: Why do we go for 4-20mA? why

not other standara?
Answer In long 0 Jb
#3 distance wire
if some wire
are broken
then at the
receiver end
there will be
current value
0. If we take
0-20
standard in
that case it
will be
difficult to
know that the
 current value
is actually 0
or its 0
because of
broken wire.
but in case of
4-20 it the
the signal is
in off state
then
at the
receiver end
we will have
current value
4 and in
case of broken
wore we will
have current
value 0.

7
Is This Ye
Answer s
Correct ? 2 No

Re: Why do we go for 4-20mA? why

not other standara?
Answer yes, i agree
#4 with JB,s
answar, to
some exctent,
some times
transmitter 0
drifts due to
calibration
disterbance,if
we use 0-20ma
we cont find
the -ve 0
drift of the
transmitter in
case of 4-20
the drift will
be within the
0-4ma. also
the 4-20ma is
easy to equal
division and
calculate with
any range .