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In The Company #13: Bronnie

Ware on having the courage to
live a life true to yourself

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In The Company #13: Bronnie Ware on  What is
having the courage to live a life true to psychological
yourself safety?

Bronnie Ware is a former banker, palliative carer, singer  How to vote

and songwriter, international speaker and author of with your
several books, including the best selling, The Top Five values
Regrets of the Dying, and her latest book, Bloom: A Tale
 Leaders can
of Courage, Surrender and breaking through upper
drive climate
limits.
action from the
Through Bronnie’s work as a palliative carer, she inside out
uncovered the number one regret of the dying was that
people wished they’d had the courage to live a life true
to themselves, not the life others expected of them. Categories
People also wished they hadn’t worked so hard, and that
they’d had the courage to express their feelings.  Daring Leaders

Her compiled list of the human condition in its final  In The Company
stages is a powerful call to show up in our lives fully, Podcast
right now. The list also seems to give us the permission
we have long denied ourselves which is to live our lives  Sustainable
true to us. Leadership

In this podcast we talk about how knowing these regrets  The Leap Stories
shaped Bronnie’s own life, especially to take leaps, work
as a creative entrepreneur living with chronic pain, and
become a first time mum in her mid-40s, as explored in
her new book, Bloom.

For more information about Bronnie and her books,

visit: bronnieware.com

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Transcript
Kylie: Today, we’re in the company of Bronnie Ware, a
former palliative carer, singer and songwriter, speaker
and author of several books including the best-selling
The Top Five Regrets of the Dying, and her latest book
Bloom: A Tale of Courage, Surrender, and Breaking
Through Upper Limits.

The aim of this podcast is to be in the company of people

who help us humanise work. And quite frankly, I can’t
think of a more appropriate person to interview for this
purpose. Through Bronnie’s work as a palliative carer,
she uncovered that the number one regret of the dying
was that people wished they’d had the courage to live a
life true to themselves, not the life others expected of
them. People also wished they hadn’t worked so hard,
and that they’d had the courage to express their feelings.
Her compiled list of the human condition in its final
stages is a powerful call to show up fully in our lives
right now. The list also seems to give us the permission
we have long denied ourselves, which is to live our life
true to us.

Discovering Bronnie’s work woke me up to the choices I

was making in my own life. It’s true to say that without
discovering Bronnie’s list my own life today would be
very different. I have a list of the regrets printed in my
diary, and I use them often as guiding principles when
making choices and plans. You can find the full list at
Bronnieware.com. Today we’re going to talk about how
knowing these regrets shaped Bronnie’s own life,
especially working as a creative entrepreneur living
with chronic pain, and becoming a first-time mum in
her mid-40s, as explored in her new book, Bloom.
Welcome, Bronnie.

Bronnie: Thank you, Kylie.

Kylie: Now every time I think about your work, my

humanity just keeps bubbling to the surface of my life.
And it’s true to say that when I do look up the full list of
the five regrets that you’ve got on your blog I have a
hard time actually reading that full list without being
very moved and becoming very emotional. So I first
want to say thank you for doing such incredible work
and putting such amazing insights into the world. It’s
been a profound uncovering for me.

Bronnie: Thank you, but really I’m the messenger of

those regrets. So the thanks actually go to the dear
people who I looked after.

Kylie: Absolutely.

Bronnie: Yeah, but thank you.

Kylie: Before we dig into that, though I wanted to just

find out a little bit more about young Bronnie, and what
she liked doing as a child. And perhaps there might be
an insight into how you came to do what you do today
from then.

Bronnie: Sure. One of the things I loved as a child was I

had pen friends all over the world. So I was writing and
I had a fascination with other countries and other
cultures. So now obviously I’m a writer of songs and
articles and books. And I travel the world now, and my
audience is very international. So, I think that seed came
from all those years ago.

I also used to love walking over the paddocks on the

farm that I grew up on, which is near [inaudible
00:03:49]. And I was always very connected to nature
and had great reverence for it. And now I use nature as
a tool for teaching often in my books, and in my work.
So again, another seed was planted all those years ago
was already coming through me as a young girl.

Kylie: Fantastic. And I know from having just finished

reading Bloom how important that connection with
nature is in your life in terms of staying connected to
who you are. But also too, in terms of your recovery,
which we’ll get into in just a second. Because one of the
other things that I also like to talk about with my guests
up front is understanding a little bit more about things
that you believe in your life now as an adult and the
experience that you’ve had. So, would you mind giving
us an insight into three things that you believe in right
now?

Bronnie: Sure. That space is medicine, leaving space in

your life is the best medicine. We can’t be our best self if
we don’t leave room for intuitive guidance, for magic,
and for spontaneous fun. So, space is medicine.

That there’s something to learn about ourselves from

every single person we interact with. It’s not necessarily
that they’ve got something to teach us, but we can teach
ourselves something through our interaction with them.

And back to what we’ve just started with, but nature is

the best teacher and healer of all. Anytime I need an
answer I go for a walk in nature and I can just find the
answer there through whatever I’m looking at. So, yeah.
Natures the greatest teacher no matter how much we
can philosophise, we’ve only got to walk outside and sit
and listen.

Kylie: Yes. So, digging into the book and what you’ve
talked about in terms of your connection with nature
and searching for both finding a home that’s close to
nature and also spending time in nature was really
important, as I mentioned earlier in your recovery.
Would you like to spend a few moments describing what
you’ve covered in the latest book in the latest chapter
that you talk about what’s happened in your life that led
you to writing about Bloom.

Bronnie: Okay, I was very blessed to conceive naturally

and quickly at 44. Became a first time mum at 45. Had a
very healthy pregnancy, delivered a gorgeous, healthy
little girl, Elena. But straight after that, I started having
some aches in my hands and feet and I was diagnosed
with rheumatoid arthritis immediately following Elena’s
birth. And I was catapulted into a major healing journey.
I had left the relationship with her biological father
when I was pregnant, for reasons I don’t need to go into.
But it meant I was a single mum and in quite crippling
pain.

So Bloom follows my journey through that … and the

subtitles sums it up, that it’s a tale of courage, surrender,
and breaking through upper limits. And what I came to
find and to use the example of my life through the
storytelling, is that no matter what upheaval we’re given
it is actually given to us from a place of love. And it is
absolutely perfect for who we are individually and for
our own journey. And as much as I would definitely
have never chosen consciously to go down a road of
chronic pain where I couldn’t even walk 30 metres, and
when Elena was two she was helping me get dressed. It
was horrific the depth of pain I went to with the journey,
and I’m doing really well now, and riding a bike, and
jumping on a trampoline, and doing all sorts of amazing
things, travelling.

But I use my life as the example to show that we all get

sent really big lessons in life, but they’re not actually
given to us as a trauma. They’re given to us to crack us
open, to bring us into our best self. So through that story,
I have the storyline of love, there’s a storyline of longing
for home and being back with nature, and there’s the
story of my journey with illness. So, it doesn’t matter if
you’re sick or not. The fact is we have to surrender into
our lessons. And if we have the courage to do that we
actually realise how much love those lessons are
delivered to us with.
Kylie: Yes. So having read through the story and
understanding, or trying to understand the challenges
that you faced. As you mentioned, a single mum with a
very young child, in chronic pain. And just the
exhaustion of raising a small child is significant. Courage
is absolutely the word that comes to my mind when I
think about that journey that you’ve had. Especially
after a period where you’ve given so much to other
people through your [inaudible 00:09:16] care work. One
of the things that came through to me when I was
reading the book, I was thinking, “When is she going to
ask for more help? When is she going to finally start
taking some of what she’s given out into the world for so
long?” And a part of my was thinking that’s the
surrender piece, right?

Bronnie: Yes.

Kylie: That’s kinda coming to that place.

Bronnie: Coming to that place, Kylie. And also to realise

that we’re worthy of that help. And all of us, we get out
there and we expect so much of ourselves personally
and professionally and nothing good happens alone. We
cannot do it alone. For me, because I’d always been so
resilient, and I’d always carried everyone through, I just
thought, “Okay, well I’ve just got to carry myself through
this.” Until it got to the point where I just thought, “This
is ridiculous.” And one of the biggest insights I had in the
journey, which is in the book, is just because I can do it
tough, doesn’t mean I have to. And when I got to that I
was like, “You goose, what are you doing Bronnie?” And
especially because I’ve learned so much about the
importance of time and how sacred it is from hanging
out with dying people for eight years. And I don’t want
to live with regrets. So I have an immense amount of
courage.

I am definitely a teacher of courage because I know that

to create a life free of regret we have to be courageous.
But part of that courage is having the courage to
surrender. It’s not just the courage to have a go at things,
but to actually let go of things. To have the courage to let
go and say, “I actually need help here. I can’t be the
person I used to be because” … In my case I had a
disease, but because we’re not meant to be the people
we used to be. If life is sending us a trauma to crack us
open, it wants to bring us into our best self. And there’s
no point in doing all the same old things because why
would you have this lesson if the same old things were
working?

Kylie: So what you’ve just described there is the paradox

of courage, which is actually that courage is born out of
vulnerability.

Bronnie: Absolutely.

Kylie: And we often think about courage being these

brave, heroic acts. And we somehow tie it with hyper-
independence and that we can make it through on our
own, and it’s just a matter of toughening up. But as
you’ve so beautifully pointed out and lived, it’s actually
the courage to say, “I need some help,” or “I actually
can’t do this on my own anymore and I need to be
connected with people that can service some of my
needs for awhile.” That actually takes a heck of a lot of
courage.

Bronnie: It’s ridiculous. We need courage to get on and

do physical things, and be independent, and do all of
that. I mean, courage has its place there. But it doesn’t
serve us in the long term. The more real we can be, the
more vulnerable we can be, and the more honest we can
be with ourselves about our needs, and just to admit,
“Okay, I need help.” On all sorts of levels, professionally
as well as physically it was then. The more vulnerable
we can be, not only the more open we are then to life’s
blessings. But the more we actually connect with other
people.

Independence is a very solitary path, and it is sort of a

path of control to a degree. Where we’re determined
we’re going to do it this way no matter what, and life
isn’t that clear-cut. All good things have to have some
help. We’re not an island, we’re not meant to be on our
own and not have [inaudible 00:13:16] reaching out.
We’re all meant to be connected. So vulnerability takes
immense courage.

But once you get that courage and you allow yourself to
be real and vulnerable, it’s just immense the joy that can
come from that. Because you can just be real then.

Kylie: Yes. We’ll come back to that in a second because

there are certain parts in the book where you face down
that courage that is also frightening at the same time.

But you mentioned just before that just because I can do

it tough, doesn’t mean I have to. Why do you think that
we put up with so much before we surrender?

Bronnie: Because we’re shaping our lives around that

first regret. So the first regret of the dying is people
wishing they’d had the courage to live a life true to
themselves, not the life other people expected of them.
We can shape so much of our lives around what other
people expect of us. So, we’re saving face and we’re
appearing strong, and all of this has got to do with how
we’re perceived by our peers, by society, by social media,
by our family, by whatever. So, the more we can use
death as a tool for living and face the fact that we’re
going to die, and we’re on limited time, and there’s a
really good chance that we’re going to get to the end
with that regret if we keep going the way we are. That if
we keep going the way we are we’re going to look back
and realise we’ve lived our life according to the
expectations of others.

So the more we can work backwards from that and say,

“Yeah, okay, my time is decreasing every single day. I
don’t have all the time in the world.” To make these
changes and be vulnerable is going to be painful because
it’s going to take me to a place within that really scares
me. But I can tell you now there’s nothing life can throw
at us that is going to be as painful … Well, there probably
are … But generally, in most peoples’ cases, there’s not
much that life can throw our way that is going to be as
painful as lying on your death bed with the pain of
regret knowing that you actually had choices and you
didn’t exercise those choices consciously.

It does take an immense amount of courage to become

vulnerable. But so much of that lack of vulnerability is
keeping up appearances based on the expectations of
others.

Kylie: Yes, so having, “What will people think?” playing

out in your head every time you make a decision. Rather
than thinking, “But what is it that I truly want?”

Bronnie: Yeah. And, “am I going to fall flat on my face

and be thought of as a fool?” Yes, probably, but you’re
also going to inspire those people when they’re on their
own and they’ve actually got the guts to admit it to
themselves. “Crikey, I was probably wrong about her,
she’s doing an amazing job. And good on her, she’s
failed, but she’s got back up and learned through that.”
And that fear of failure and being misunderstood, and
being seen as a fool, or whatever can stop so many
incredible dreams from unfolding because it’s all about
what other people think of us, and I’ve been blessed
with realising that that’s so irrelevant. And I can actually
live my life my way, and do it with peace and freedom
because I know it whatever anyone thinks of me is
never going to be as painful as living an unconscious
life.

Kylie: Yes. And before you were a palliative carer you

had a significant career in finance? In banking?

Bronnie: In personal banking, yes, yeah working for

quite a few of the banks. Yes. I did what was expected of
me as a young girl straight off the farm. I went and got a
job in a bank and I was good with customer service, I
loved the customers. And I was good with math and
numbers so I was pretty good in the job. But I hated
sales targets, and I was restless and in a lot of emotional
pain from my childhood. And I just went from one bank
to another, from one town to another. And as a result, I
actually had an accelerated career path because I’d
worked in so many departments of so many different
banks that each time I’d go to a new town … It’s different
these days with the internet and everything … But
whenever I’d go to a new town I’d just walk up and say,
“Have you got any jobs I’ve done this, this, this.” “Oh,
well we’ve got this job.” And it’s like yeah, well I’ve sort
of done that, and I probably hadn’t. But it was enough to
get my foot in.

So all of a sudden I’d find myself as an assistant branch

manager at 27 with no degree. So there were things like
that that it took me 15 years of that restlessness to
actually realise … Well, I realised early on that it wasn’t
what I wanted … But I saw work as completely separate
to life. I thought, “Okay if my life’s happy, it doesn’t
really matter what work is as long as I can leave it there
when I go home. And then I have a happy life outside of
that.” But over time I realised that that’s not the case at
all. Our calling is to actually do work with soul and with
heart. And the more banking evolved into a sales
machine, the more heart was removed from it.

I think there’s a new consciousness in banking that

wasn’t there when I left, which is lovely. Banks are
getting very involved in community projects now.
There’s ethical banking, if I was in banking now I’d
definitely be working for one of the ethical banking
groups. But in those days it wasn’t like that and it took a
lot of courage to leave that industry because it was a
good job, there was a recession on. What are you doing,
Bronnie, you’ve got a good job, in a bank, a full-time job?
Oh my gosh. And I left there and went and washed
dishes on an island for a couple of years. And went
completely the opposite way, I just have to break out of
this Monday to Friday zone and do something that has
nothing to do with anything other than having fun.
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Kylie: I write a blog series called, the Leap Stories, and

I’ve also published a book called the Leap Stories, about
people who were taking courageous career leaps. Was
there a defining moment for you thinking, “I can’t walk
into another bank ever again, I need to just do
something completely different.” Was there a defining
moment, or how did you get to that point where it was
like all the bright lights, and all the bonuses and that sort
of stuff, it’s not worth it anymore. Cause I feel like there’s
a lot of people who just say like you did, “As long as my
life is happy outside of work, I’ll put up with whatever I
need to put up with.” And it’s lucrative, and it’s
comfortable, and I know it. Even though I’m slowly
dying inside.

Bronnie: It built up over a while. I think the first

noticeable point was when I was putting on stockings
and high heels one day and just thought this is just not
me. And it just festered to the point where I would go, as
soon as lunch was on, I’d always be in a park or by a
river, or whatever piece of nature I could find. And I’d
always have my lunch there, and finding the energy to
go back into work after lunch was becoming really
painful. It was actually becoming a great effort. And I
went up to Fitzroy Island on the Barrier Reef with my
older sister, and we did a scuba diving holiday, and she
was cracking onto our diving instructor, which was
really handy. To get out and to pass our tests.

And I’d climbed this mountain, and I was sitting on the

… It was a defining moment … I was sitting on a boulder,
and so I’d seen that there was another life outside of this
banking world. There was staff on the island having a
ball, and that was their office that they were working on
a tropical island. And I sat up on this boulder on Fitzroy
Island and I just thought, “I’ve got to work on an island, I
just have to leave everything behind.” I don’t know if it
was the same year or within a few years of when Top
Gun came out. And there was this song on Top Gun, on
the soundtrack, called Destination Unknown. And it was
my favourite song, I had this huge romantic view of me
zooming off into the unknown and not knowing where
I’d land.

So that’s exactly what I did. I went back from Fitzroy

Island, sold all my furniture, quit my banking job.
Whatever furniture was left I sent it home to my
parents’ farm. And then I wrote to two islands, Fitzroy
and Dunk because of the location of them. And I just said
I was willing to do anything, which was pretty crazy in a
way when I had so many skills. And it was before the
internet, so then I did take off destination unknown. I
took off and caught the train toward North Queensland,
just figuring I’ll work it out when I get there. And while I
was on my way, they wrote to me [inaudible 00:23:39]
and when I rang my mum from one of those old silver
phone books, just dropping 20 cent pieces in. She said
Dunk Island has written, they want you to ring them.
There’s a job as a kitchen hand.

So within a week, I was living on Dunk Island, and up to

my elbows in grease and stuff. But from that I learned to
mix cocktails, I ended up in the bar and that took me
overseas. Yeah, it was a fantastic existence, and I didn’t
even know what day it was half the time let alone
Monday to Friday anymore. It was a big leap, and it was
all that romantic destination unknown thing, and that
was my first leap of faith and I’ve done many many
leaps of faith since. And always they ask a little bit more
of me, and always the reward is so much bigger and
better.

Kylie: Well, courage is a muscle, they say-

Bronnie: Yes.

Kylie: So the more you exercise it, the stronger it gets.

Bronnie: Yeah, I’m strong … Oh I’ve got it.

Kylie: So, I’m wondering how you dealt with the

inevitable voice that was in your head when it came to
actually deciding I am going to leave banking, and I’m
going to do something else. You know, the inevitable
voice that was in your head that said, “But it’s a
recession, and but it’s this, and but it’s that.” How were
you able to overcome that?

Bronnie: Well, I’d been shown a glimpse of what was

possible. And the pain of staying in banking had become
too much. And that is often the case that we have to,
rather than pull ourselves forward for the lure of
pleasure, we have to wait till it becomes too painful. And
I just knew sitting up on that boulder that I couldn’t do it
anymore. I just could not work in a bank anymore. I just
couldn’t give my best self to the customers. I just
couldn’t do it, there was something in me that was in
such a place of pain that I thought, “Okay I’ve been
shown something else here, I’ve been shown there’s a
choice.” So I went back with complete resolve that I had
to quit my job, and I quit it the day I got back from the
island.

Kylie: Often in the stories that I discover with other

people, it is the walking away from what you know and
finding space, as you mentioned earlier. To invite a
different mindset that enables us to get some
perspective. And we don’t often allow ourselves that
space to actually find the courage that we need to
change and to recognise our choices.

Bronnie: That’s right, Kylie. Those years on the island I

knew it wasn’t my career and my soul’s work. But by
having a job with no pressure for a while … It’s like that
whole thing about a side hustle … It took the pressure
off, so I could actually just earn a living while I sorted
out stuff and went through a lot of growth, and did a lot
of healing. And it was still going to be a few years, I went
overseas then for a few years, and that’s when I began
as a carer, my first care role as a companion. But again, I
didn’t see it coming. So I just took a job that took the
pressure off while I was trying to work out what
worked. So we don’t always know what we want, but we
almost always know what we don’t want.

If we dare to step away from what we don’t want and

give ourselves that little bit of fluidity in between, then
we become more open and our vision becomes clearer
to be pulled towards what we actually do want.

Kylie: That’s so true. I wanted to pick up on something

that you also said, then. Which was talking about we’re
often motivated by pain rather than pleasure.

Bronnie: Yes.

Kylie: And one of the questions I had written down after

reading your book and hearing about your journey with
Rheumatoid Arthritis, and the intense physical pain that
that brought to you. That has lead to this uncovering of
surrender plays a massive part in our life. The question I
have is, do you think we have to go through great pain to
live more regret free?

Bronnie: Yes. Not necessarily physical pain. We have to

be cracked open. And some of us a have to be cracked
open in a bigger way than others, but no one is immune
from growth. Some people may not go through massive
upheaval, but if we’re going to create a life completely
free of regret … And I have the confidence to do that in
my life now … If we are truly going to live a life free of
regret, then we have to dare to be our best self.
Whatever that is, not as we define it, but as life calls us
to be.

In that case, yes, there’s going to be pain because we

have to let go of our old identity. We have to let go of
how we think life should be. We have to learn to
surrender and that is a painful process of developing
faith and letting go of control of how we had it all
worked out, supposedly. Because even when we think
we’ve got it worked out life still throws a curve ball our
way. So I do believe that it may not always be as extreme
as my own cracking open has been, but I’m yet to meet
anyone who hasn’t gone through a major upheaval, and
a few years down the track can actually stop and think,
“Wow, this has actually made me just such a better
person. And brought me more into myself.”

Kylie: So there is part of that post-traumatic growth as

opposed to post-traumatic stress. That opportunity to
actually see something that has cracked us open as being
a positive and growth experience, rather than one that
puts us in the corner of fear, for potentially the rest of
our lives. That work is all inner work that we need to
find our way through.

How do you think some people, like yourself, are able to

choose that path, as opposed to potentially the other
path. Which does lead to a lot of regrets?

Bronnie: I’ve witnessed the pain of regret, and it’s very

real. And I could’ve stayed in banking forever. But again,
it’s that pain thing, it just pulls you back. So I guess I’ve
just had a lot of pain in my past. All the calling from my
soul was just so strong that I couldn’t deny that. And it’s
probably that more than anything. Because there’s no
way I would have ever seen myself as a creative person.
Despite my mum being a singer, and my father being a
guitarist and songwriter when they met, my father was
also an accountant, and my mother a dietician. So, I was
raised with this very Monday to Friday career path
mindset.

And it didn’t matter that we also had musicians

dropping in for three months at a time, and lots of music
happening. I had been bred to believe in the Monday to
Friday nine to five life. And there’s no way without pain,
I wouldn’t have stepped out of that, without the pain
that it brought. And I’d have never imagined and seen
myself as a creative type, I just saw myself as a young
corporate woman. And now my creativity that’s who I
am completely. I’m grateful that I’ve got a great business
head, which is really good for a creative person. The
banking industry has blessed me with that, and I think
that no skills are ever wasted.

But those skills that we gain in jobs that we don’t like

can actually carry us forward in a really positive way
into work that we will love. And I love my work now, I
absolutely love it. So I guess what made me different
was that the pain got too much to bear. And so it gave
me the courage to keep making choices and I started
recognising those patterns. Whenever pain kept coming
up I’d think, “My life is too precious. I’m not going to
spend my life doing what doesn’t bring me joy.” Because
it’s ticking by, and this is not a practise run. This is it.

Kylie: And I think I heard it from Oprah, many years ago

when her show was still on TV. And she says that your
life is always speaking to you. And at first it’ll speak to
you in whispers and if you don’t listen, it starts tapping
you on the shoulder. And if you’re not listening it starts
kind of pushing you around, until you completely get
bowled over to say, “Hey, I’m trying to tell you something
here. You’ve got to be listening.” And if you’re not
listening that’s when pain really starts to magnify and
intense. Because as you said, there was something else
that was going on in your life that was, you call it a
calling.

Bronnie: Yes.
Kylie: Yeah.

Bronnie: In the subtitle of Bloom, where I say, it’s also

about breaking through upper limits. I really had to
break through a lot of stuff about did I deserve success?
Or did I deserve happiness, or whatever? I had to break
through and heal a lot of painful stuff that I had carried
through and created as little Bronnie. And my belief
systems as a little girl, I had to go back and heal a lot of
that stuff before I could actually realise my own worth.
So life was trying to tell me this for a long time, but I
guess life just said, “You’re too slow at this, Bronnie. Let’s
just get on with it. Haven’t got all the time in the world
to heal this, get on with it. Let’s crack you open so you
can actually receive all of this goodness that is actually
waiting for you. Because you deserve it like everybody
does.”

Kylie: Yes. And what was it like the moment that you
started to claim that identity as being a creative person?

Bronnie: I did it with one foot in, one foot out. What I
did was I left banking … I’d gone back into banking
when I came back from overseas, but only as a temp. I
couldn’t do Monday to Friday, but I kept the banking
skills up while I was developing. Photography was
where I first started, writing inspirational quotes and
taking nature photos. So I started selling those as
markets while I was still working in banks for a little
while. Despite the island in the middle, I went back to
banking. So it can take awhile to break the old habits.

And then I left banking completely, but I got an office job

in a photography lab. So I thought that was my first step
into it, but it was still just another office job like banking.
But it was my step into it. And that just become too
painful, and I needed a job with heart. And I just kept
putting it out there more and more. And that’s how I
ended up as a palliative carer, because I just thought I
wanna do something … And I had started songwriting by
then as well … I wanna do something that allows me to
devote time to my creativity without worrying about a
mortgage or rent.

So I took a live-in job as a carer, and started doing this.

I’d moved to Sydney by then, I’d moved around a lot.
And I was doing a songwriting circuit in Sydney while I
was caring for what I thought initially was just as a
carer. And then my first patient became palliative. So
that ended up being eight years of looking after dying
people. And I still, even during all those years, I saw
them as two separate entities. That I had a job with heart
that I completely devoted myself to when I was there, as
a carer. But then I had this creative job on the side,
doing the songwriting and playing at a few folk festivals
and stuff. It wasn’t until I was burning out from both of
them that … And then I set up a songwriting programme
in a women’s jail … So I sort of blended the two together.

It was only then, and then I wrote the blog about the five
regrets, that I realised that all of those years of looking
after dying people weren’t just to fund my creative path.
They were the seed of my creative path. And when I
blended all of that together and realised, like I said, that
no skill is ever wasted. I looked at all my banking
history, my hospitality history, being able to cook for
people, that helped me with my patients and their
families. When it all came together it helped me to
surrender, because I realised that life knows our needs
so much better than we do. And in the big picture, it was
already in place just waiting for my readiness.

Kylie: Yes, and what I’m hearing is every opportunity

that presented, which gave you more skills enabled you
to leverage that in a new way. But in your own creative
way, not necessarily in a defined role, or a role that
someone else was setting you up to and expected you to
live out. It was enabling you to kind of make your own
creative role in the world.

Bronnie: Yes, it was. And it was all gifted to me perfectly.

And with those skills behind me, each of those skills
gave me another level of confidence. And every step
forward gave me another layer of confidence. And when
I started teaching in the jail, I’d never walked inside a
jail in my life, and I’d never taught before. And I was
teaching songwriting to female inmates, and I just stood
there and thought, “Well I’ve sort of done all this in one
way or another.” And that gave me the confidence to
even apply and to create the programme.

Kylie: Yes, so part of that is realising that nothing’s ever

wasted.

Bronnie: Nothing.

Kylie: Nothing.

Bronnie: Nothing at all. And it all makes us who we are

and perfect for the next level of our journey.

Kylie: Yes, and that right now is just as it should be.

Bronnie: Absolutely, and for that, I’m enormously

grateful. All of it. The pain of banking, the pain of
Rheumatoid Arthritis, all of it. Washing dishes on a
tropical island in 40 degrees heat. It’s all relevant
because all of those skills have been utilised and further
developed along the way. To support my life’s work. And
to bring this life’s work to the masses.

Kylie: Yeah. I would like to switch tracks just for the last
part of our conversation, because there’s a topic that
keeps coming up in my work with coaching clients. And
that’s the topic of grief. And it’s something that we aren’t
really taught to deal with as children, we’re often very
protected from grief. Perhaps we aren’t in an
environment where we have an opportunity to
experience it, or we are very much being shielded from
the pain of grief. But it’s an undeniable emotion that we
will experience throughout our lifetime. And I’m
wondering through your work experience in dealing
with people in their final stages of living, and being
around their families at the same time. But also you talk
about the grief of some of your expectations in your new
book. Of things not going the way that you thought that
they would. What do you know about grief that you wish
that more people knew?

Bronnie: Well, what you said. That it is a part of our life

experience. That we will all have to experience it at
some stage. It’s a layer by layer process. It involves a lot
of gentleness and compassion for ourselves. And the
more we suppress it the more damage we’re doing to
ourselves in the long term. So, again, it’s another layer of
courage and surrender that we have to surrender to the
grief. Things won’t always turn out as we want. We will
lose people who we love immensely. We have to allow
ourselves to feel it completely, and not toughen up. We
will come through it eventually if we’re allowed to feel
it. If we’re forced to toughen up, then it’s just going to
explode within us through disease, or through mental
illness, through whatever. It will come out of us
somehow.

So, compassion has to start with ourselves and it’s okay

to feel grief. We can’t just think we should be over it by
now. Some people take years to let go and still feel grief.
Sometimes I still dream about my little dog who died
when I was 14. And I find myself waking up crying
because of my little dog. There are so many layers that
we can’t always be conscious of, but as a society, we
need to allow people to grieve. And realise that it’s not a
failing to feel sad. Grief is a part of life. And we’ve got to
go gently on each other and ourselves. I’ve always been
quite a gentle person, but I’ve now learned to also go
very gently on myself as well.

And as much as we can feel the grief, there does come a

time where our heart will say, “Let’s try and get on with
life now.” We owe it to ourselves to try and be our best
self. Take this grief and use it in a really positive way if
possible.
Kylie: So as you mentioned grief is layers, and it does
often pop up and reappear at times that we don’t expect
it. I often find that when I’m in my car driving by myself
it’ll come and set up camp again for a little while. And
you’re right, in terms of, I just need to be compassionate
with myself. To say it’s okay to feel sad. I think we don’t
give ourselves permission very often to feel that.

Bronnie: That’s right. And we don’t know what’s going

to trigger the grief either. We can think we’re through it,
and then something brand new will trigger another
layer of it. And it’s part of our return to ourself. It’s part
of cracking open our hearts and returning to the core of
real love, of pure love. And grief is a part of that. It’s not
all joy, and anger, and denial, and determination, and all
of those other things that life sees in public. Grief is just
as real as any of that, and it is a part of the process that
we have to open our hearts to.

Kylie: Yes, because you can’t have the good stuff without
the hard stuff.

Bronnie: You wouldn’t even recognise the good stuff

without the hard stuff.

Kylie: Yeah. I’m wondering, you obviously learned so

much through the people who were dying with their
regrets. What was it like for someone who was a bit
more at peace at the end of their life?

Bronnie: There were people who didn’t have regrets.

And what I found was a common denominator was that
they had a sense of gratitude. They also had good
communication with their families and friends. They
were open to laughter, that sort of thing. But it was quite
incredible that there were more people that actually had
regrets that didn’t, in my experience. And that may just
be because I had a good listening ear, and that’s what
came out of people. I didn’t force it out of anyone, but it
seemed to just come out. But for those who died
peacefully, it was beautiful to recognise that it can be
done. It can be done, but they’ve lived a very honest life
in their communication, and their expressions. They
could express their vulnerability, they could
communicate with their families well. Those factors
really made a big difference.

Kylie: You mentioned just before that you feel quite

comfortable with the idea of living to the very end with
no regrets?

Bronnie: Yes.

Kylie: Do you think it is possible to?

Bronnie: Yep. I do. I don’t think it’s possible to not wish

we could do things differently. There’s certainly things I
can look back at now and, I’m a 50-year-old woman now,
and I look back on 50 years and I can think of lots of
things I would certainly do differently if I had my time
again. Cause regret is a very harsh judgement of
ourselves. So as we’re developing compassion, which
compassion has to start with ourselves. Then we can
actually look back and say, “Okay, I did make mistakes,
there are things I could regret. But I’m actually going to
have compassion for my old self as who I am now.”
Because I’ve obviously evolved from that or I wouldn’t
recognise the mistake. I think it is possible, in two ways.
For me, I’ve got compassion for the mistakes I’ve made,
and for mistakes I will probably still make.

And also I have an awareness of death, and I use death

as a tool for living, and think, “Okay, if I do this or don’t
do this which one’s going to cause regret here?” I’ve got
a really scary decision to make. If I go this way I’m going
to regret it, or which way. And so I use that awareness of
death and regret to make decisions consciously all the
time. It’s just a part of my makeup now. So I think it is
possible to die without regret. Providing we can have
compassion for ourselves and our human-ness for the
mistakes we’ve already made. And to apply as much
consciousness as possible about the potential of regret to
the decisions we’re making now.
Kylie: And that’s in all parts of our life, right? It doesn’t
matter whether we’re talking about our working lives,
our contribution to a community, or to society, or to our
relationships with our family, or our friends.
Compassion is something that we hold for ourselves no
matter where we show up in our lives.

Bronnie: Yes, and the more compassion we can have for

ourselves, the more compassion we can have for others.
So we don’t react to others if they’re dumping stuff on
us, whether it’s in a work environment, or at home,
whatever. Because we can actually step back and look at
it compassionately and think, “Okay, well they’re really
suffering at this moment. They’re taking it out on me,
but this is their suffering talking, not me.” So that
compassion can just heal so much.

Kylie: I know you’ve also done a Ted Talk and one of the
things you talked in the Ted Talk was the difference
between self-love or self-compassion and selfishness.
Because often people will think that self-love and self-
compassion piece that’s kind of just an easy way out. Or
for people that don’t think of anyone but themselves. But
what would you say to that?

Bronnie: Well, we have to be our best self in order to

serve others. And the more we honour our genuine self-
care needs, not stuff like a bucket list of 10 countries to
visit, but actually I need to have a bath tonight I’m burnt
out. The more we can genuinely treat ourselves with
self-care then the better we show up for everyone else.
So self-care isn’t about not caring for other people, it’s
about caring for yourself as well as caring for other
people. And if you only care for other people, and you
don’t care for yourself you’re going to either end up with
burn out, or resentment, or regret, or all three of them.
Whereas if you have the courage to genuinely honour
your needs, and we all have limits whether we’re well or
not, we all have limits. And the more we can
acknowledge those limits and create space to wanna
honour our needs. Including enjoying time out with
girlfriends, or whatever. Then the better we show up for
everyone.

And the more we do that then we’re leading a heart

centred life. And anyone who lives a heart centred life,
genuinely lives it, they know that you end up being
called to serve anyway. So you just do it from a place of
sustenance, rather than burnout, or martyrdom, or
whatever.

Kylie: And that just seems like the perfect cycle of what’s
happened in your life and what you talk about in Bloom.
From the giving and the giving and then actually
needing the help and the assistance and the support and
the surrender yourself. That just is a perfect circular
kind of story that I’ve seen play out in your life. So it’s
incredible to see those lessons play out.

Bronnie: Yes, well life gives us all full circles in different

ways. Some small full circles, some big full circles.

Kylie: Yes. I was just wanting to check in with your

health. As you mentioned, for people who may be
interested in listening from the very beginning, because
as you describe in Bloom, the Rheumatoid Arthritis was
very debilitating early days. And you talk about not
being able to use your hands to cut vegetables, or just
the pain of them just being at the end of your arms. How
are you doing now?

Bronnie: I’m doing really really well. I started the

journey just trying to heal it naturally, then I went onto
pharmaceutical meds, which helped me a lot but they
had a lot of side effects. Now I’m only on herbs, and I’m
doing remarkably well. Only last week, actually one of
my fingers bent even further cause there’s some joint
pain in them. And as you’d know from reading Bloom, I
had to give up my guitar for awhile. I now have a
contraption that this wonderful man in Ireland makes
called Cordelia. And it lets me play chords without
having to put my fingers in their old positions. And I
have a lot of grief with my music part, it’s brought me
back to my music. Now I’m actually finding that I’m
bending my fingers while I’m speaking to you now, that
my fingers are coming back very slowly. But I’m doing
some really amazing rehabilitation work with them.

I jump on a trampoline, which I just can’t believe that I

have that freedom. I ride a pushbike now. I’m doing
really really well. I think the real marker for me was
seeing the Northern Lights in Norway over Christmas
New Year. It was something I always wanted to do, and I
was so ill that I couldn’t even pack a suitcase let alone go
anywhere. I just couldn’t. At one stage I had to get … You
know when you catch a flight and they have a lift for
people that can’t walk … I was in a wheelchair taken up
into a plane that way. And now I’m travelling, and I
don’t line up in the disabled line to get on first. And I
was standing there under the Northern Lights in
between Christmas and New Year, just gone. And the
Northern Lights are dancing over me, and that was
beautiful to witness in itself. But it was more just like,
“Wow, Bronnie, good on you. You’ve got this far.” So I’m
doing remarkably well.

I still live with RA, but I live with it in a way that it’s just
a very gentle friend that says, “Hang on don’t push
yourself too far,” because life can be gentle and
beautiful if you allow it to be. And I feel that it is still
reversing. I’m still noticing improvements. And like I
said, one of my fingers bent down and actually touched
my palm again not long ago. And I said to Elena, “Check
this out, look what’s happened.” And she’s like, “Oh my
goodness mummy, that’s fantastic.” So I’m continuing to
improve and for that I’m enormously grateful.

Kylie: Yes, and after reading the book and hearing about
your entry into motherhood in your 40s dealing with a
chronic pain condition, and still creating a wonderfully
creative entrepreneurial for yourself that enables you
also to be a wonderful mum, and contributor to the
broader community. I’m grateful that you also have had
the courage to choose that path in your life. And to fully
acknowledge the choices that you have. So thank you for
putting the work out into the world that you have, and
sharing your stories with us. Because in sharing your
stories we will find ourselves in part of that as well.

Bronnie: Thank you, Kylie, thank you.

Kylie: I want wrap up our discussion. So before we go,

I’ve got two things. The first thing I’d like to ask you is,
what three things would you like listeners to take away
from our chat today?

Bronnie: The courage to realise how precious life is, that

they’re not on unlimited time. The courage to realise
that they’re worthy of a happy life, however they define
that, that they are worthy. And that health is freedom,
and none of us are invincible. So leave space, because
that is the best medicine of all. Leave some space
without plans.

Kylie: Yes, because you’re your most important asset at

the end of the day. So space to take care of that asset is
top priority.

Bronnie: Here, here. Yes.

Kylie: We have ten questions to answer in ten seconds,

our ten by ten. Are you ready to rumble?

Bronnie: Okay.

Kylie: Alright. Number one, what I like about myself is …

Bronnie: My courage.

Kylie: I beat procrastination by …

Bronnie: Using death as a tool for living, and

appreciating the gift of time.

Kylie: That’s a big one! A song on my life’s soundtrack is

…
Bronnie: Take It In by the Waifs, due to my commitment
to presence.

Kylie: The world needs more …

Bronnie: Time offline, and reconnection in real life.

Kylie: A phrase I live by is …

Bronnie: Trust in the big picture, there are blessings to

be found in every challenge.

Kylie: Something everyone must do is …

Bronnie: To learn how to accept kindness as so much

flows from that on the deepest levels.

Kylie: A book that changed me is …

Bronnie: Footprints on the Path by Eileen Caddy.

Kylie: I’ll be looking that one up. Fear and I …

Bronnie: Are no longer close friends. I enjoy better

friendships with love and courage these days.

Kylie: Yes! Something that always makes me feel good is

…

Bronnie: Going for a bike ride with my five-year-old

daughter, always.

Kylie: And number ten. My legacy will be …

Bronnie: More courageous people in the world.

Kylie: And I am one of those, as a product of your work.

And I’m proud to say that I feel part of your legacy.
Thank you so much for spending this time with us today,
Bronnie. I really can’t tell you how much your work has
impacted me and what a privilege it is to speak with you
today. I’m really grateful.
Bronnie: Thank you, Kylie. I’ve enjoyed it thoroughly,
and thank you for the work that you’re doing as well.
And many blessings to you with that.

Kylie: Thanks, Bronnie.

By Kylie Lewis | September 10, 2017 | In The Company Podcast | 0

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About the Author: Kylie Lewis

Kylie supports the development of creative,

curious and entrepreneurial businesses and
their teams interested in daring leadership,
humanising work, building brave cultures
and cultivating professional and personal courage.

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