00:19

okay listen i understand that there are

00:21

a little bit of problem

00:22

with what i i have been saying

00:24

concerning

00:26

the demand for a

00:30

original quran and it may be

00:33

that i'm asking for of islam what i

00:36

don't ask of my own bible and this came

00:39

up in a number of your comments

00:40

here's one john spoonfed said this

00:45

john spoonfed dean strange how they

00:48

didn't preserve the early bible

00:50

nor the quran is that because the books

00:52

were not important or created at the

00:54

time

00:55

or the prophets the messenger delivers

00:57

the basic guidelines and then hundreds

00:59

of years later politics

01:00

jumps in and branding and develops books

01:03

yk made this point

01:06
my point is that you show 4th century 80

01:09

bibles

01:10

the same way that there are fourth or

01:12

fifth century

01:14

a h that means after hijrah qurans

01:17

what you allude to is that since the

01:19

cult of muhammad is about 600 years

01:21

younger than

01:22

that of christ the later should be

01:25

judged by

01:26

higher standards the later meaning the

01:28

islamic

01:29

or the quranic manuscript should be

01:31

judged by a higher standard

01:34

pub lunch says it this way an issue is

01:37

that jay says the new testament written

01:39

down within life the lifetime of people

01:41

who knew

01:41

jesus yet the earliest manuscripts are

01:44

from 300 years later

01:45

isn't that the same as the oldest

01:47
manuscripts for the quran valid point

01:49

absolutely valid point the difficulty

01:52

that

01:52

most of you are coming up with in is

01:55

that we're not

01:56

you cannot really compare the two

01:59

because we have completely two different

02:03

categories

02:07

see the earliest biblical manuscripts

02:10

were written on papyrus so what are

02:12

papyrus well let's take a look and see

02:14

you can see this picture of papyrus

02:17

leaves those are papyrus sleeves

02:19

and uh here i'm just going to show you

02:20

what happens what you what you do with

02:22

the pirates release you can see

02:23

a this is an ancient example of

02:27

uh in egypt where the papyri where

02:30

mostly

02:30

came from and where they used to this

02:32

for thousands of years

02:34
they would cut off the papyrus plant

02:37

and then they would strip it down into

02:40

strips

02:41

and that which they would lay on a

02:43

platform then they would wet it

02:45

and then they would interweave it like a

02:48

weaving mat

02:50

and then they would pound it out and the

02:53

sap from the papyrus sleeves would

02:55

interlock with each other and that would

02:57

create
02:58

a flat surface and then they would put a

03:01

cover over top of it to hold it in place

03:04

with weight and then after a few days

03:06

they would just take it off and there

03:08

you have your papyrus

03:09

it's very simple nothing hard and that's

03:12

and it's also very cheap

03:14

anybody can make papyrus and the oldest

03:18

manuscripts or the oldest paper of the

03:21

bible was written on that why because

03:23
it was a poor man's paper

03:26

anybody could make it all you need are

03:28

papyrus

03:29

stocks and you then understand why

03:32

it was very simple then to make it

03:35

regardless of where you are

03:36

is very simple to make it so when you

03:39

look around the world and you ask well

03:40

where are these papaya right here let me

03:42

give you some examples so the earliest

03:43

papyri
03:44

for the bible are john ryland's p52

03:48

here's a picture of it the john ryan's

03:50

is from manchester

03:52

in england it's from the first century

03:55

some

03:55

would say between 100 to 150 it's from

03:58

the gospel of john chapter 18 verse 31

04:01

to 33 and also

04:02

verses 37 to 38 front and back

04:06

just a small fragment here's another one

04:09
bomber papyrus

04:10

which is in geneva the bottom of papyrus

04:14

the p-66

04:15

it's from 200 a.d uh it's housed there

04:19

in geneva in rome and it has fragments

04:21

of the gospel of luke also it has the

04:23

lord's prayer and it also has fragments

04:25

of the gospel of john from 200 a.d

04:29

here's another example the chester

04:31

beatty that now the chester beatty has

04:33

many many of these fragments here's one

04:36

of p46 which is from the pauline

04:38

epistles

04:39

many of the polygamy epistles are

04:42

represented

04:42

in these fragments from 200 a.d again

04:45

there are 85 folios

04:47

from the chester bd fragments and they

04:50

are

04:51

kept in dublin in ireland and also in

04:54

the university of michigan here in the

04:55
united states

04:56

and the last one i'm going to show you

04:57

here is oxarincus the oxygen

05:00

fragments probably are of almost 41

05:03

of all biblical fragments uh papyrus

05:07

fragments have been found there in ox

05:09

rincus in egypt

05:10

which is uh which is just outside

05:13

actually outside of the city of

05:15

roxarincus it was in a

05:17

um a pit of use for rubbish it was a

05:20

rubbish pit

05:20

and they have come across these and

05:22

since the 1800s i think only one to two

05:25

percent of these have

05:26

even yet been deciphered because we're

05:28

talking about millions of fragments

05:30

many of them just the size of a piece of

05:32

cornflake

05:33

but here you can see the p1 this is one

05:36

of the earliest that were found

05:37
it's from 200 a.d it's been dated 280.

05:41

it includes matthew chapter 1 verses 1

05:44

to 9 and also

05:45

verses 13 to 20 on the back side and

05:47

it's housed in the university of

05:49

pennsylvania

05:50

papyrus as you can see when you look at

05:52

these these are very fragile

05:53

uh that's the problem with papyrus

05:55

because they're made out of leaves

05:56

because they're interlocking these

05:58

because they are hammered

05:59

and then wetted and then dried and then

06:01

used

06:02

after a while they just start to

06:04

disintegrate they just become dry

06:06

if you're in a wet climate they even

06:07

disintegrate faster if you're in a dry

06:09

climate they stay a little bit longer in

06:10

fact

06:11

one of the reasons why the papyrus that

06:13
we have

06:14

for the dead sea scrolls lasted well

06:16

those were from

06:18

the first century bc that's over 2000

06:20

years they lasted because they were in a

06:21

very dry climate

06:22

in those jars there in the dead sea just

06:25

above the dead street

06:26

but the the biblical manuscripts the new

06:29

testament matters because we're talking

06:30

about that's just going to be old

06:31

testament new testament manuscripts

06:32

these fragments that you see

06:34

are just that they're just fragments the

06:36

reason why because

06:37

with papyrus they disintegrate very

06:40

quickly they only last about 100 years

06:41

before they start to disintegrate

06:44

so we would not expect to find any

06:47

biblical manuscripts uh complete ones

06:51

uh that are have lasted two thousand

06:53
years the ones that have lasted and the

06:55

old fragments that have lasted were

06:57

thrown away pieces that were thrown away

06:58

remember the

06:59

edict of diocletian in 300 a.d

07:02

destroyed most of the biblical

07:05

manuscripts that existed

07:07

they went around and just collected

07:08

thousands upon tens of thousands of

07:10

bibles and just burned them

07:12

so we don't have full manuscripts

07:14

anymore because

07:15

of the edict of diocletian in 300 a.d

07:18

that which we do have are ones that were

07:20

no one paid attention to and because

07:22

they are fragments no one really cared

07:24

about them and that's why they still

07:25

exist today

07:26

and that's why they're in different

07:27

libraries all over the

07:29

western world papyri

07:32
by definition is a poor man's paper

07:36

disintegrates easily almost all of our

07:39

earliest

07:40

documents were written a papyri because

07:42

the church was very poor

07:44

the church did not control anything the

07:45

church was under persecution

07:47

for 300 years until the 4th century the

07:49

church was always into persecution and

07:51

being under persecution

07:52

they did not did not have the freedoms

07:54

nor did they have the wealth to

07:55

to be able to afford parchment parchment

07:59

is are not leaves these

08:02

are not these have nothing to do with

08:04

interlocking leaves

08:06

and so that's why you don't find

08:07

parchments any earlier than

08:09

the 4th century why the 4th century well

08:11

here's the siniaticus

08:12

and the alexandrinus and the vaticanus

08:15
that i've shown before

08:16

vaticanus alexandrinus and the

08:18

sinaiticus or whichever way you want to

08:19

put it them

08:20

but let's look at the vaticanus and the

08:22

sinaiticus

08:23

the two on the left and in the center

08:25

there those are the earliest

08:26

uh of the full manuscripts now notice

08:29

those are written on parchment

08:31

parchment are animal skins by definition

08:35

animals

08:35

let's take let's look and see what

08:37

happens with parchment when you look at

08:38

parchment here

08:39

here you can see uh what you have to do

08:41

to make parchment is much much more

08:43

sophisticated

08:44

much much more expensive here you see

08:47

the

08:47

skins are being de-haired in order to

08:49
de-hair them

08:51

you've got to put them in a type of

08:53

liquid of

08:54

made up of alkaline and it takes days

08:56

sometimes weeks

08:57

to get all the hair off them so that's

09:00

the first problem and then

09:01

you have to dry them on frame so you can

09:04

see

09:04

skin drying that's parchment and they

09:06

have to be pulled and you have to keep

09:08

them and then

09:08

you you while they are drawing there you

09:11

would then

09:12

uh you would rub them with stones to

09:16

smooth out or get out all whatever hair

09:18

is remaining

09:20

and then on the flesh side of the skin

09:23

which would be the inner side of the

09:24

skin

09:25

you then rub what we call pumice powder

09:28
and here you can see an example

09:29

of pumice powder to make it much

09:32

smoother so this would take an enormous

09:35

amount of labor

09:36

an enormous amount of work and that's

09:38

why only very wealthy individuals would

09:41

be able to to use or to

09:44

take parchments the sinaiticus this one

09:47

here that you see in the middle

09:48

this one the siniaticus we know took

09:50

about anywhere from 50 to 60

09:53

gazelle skins this is deerskins anywhere

09:55

from 50 to 60 gazelle skins

09:58

had to be cured that way that i just

09:59

showed you it would take weeks

10:01

months and it would then you would then

10:04

have to put them together to create the

10:06

codis known as the sinaiticus only

10:08

someone very wealthy

10:09

could afford something of that

10:13

that expensive and that's why

10:16
when constantine who was the emperor in

10:20

the 4th century

10:21

when he converted to christianity

10:24

when he commissioned the council of

10:27

nicaea

10:28

in 325 324 325

10:31

a.d he commissioned we understand

10:35

quite a number of these codices these

10:37

books to

10:38

be made of the new testament so that

10:41

athanasius could argue against

10:44

eris arius uh on whether or not jesus

10:47

was god

10:48

and so these books were commissioned at

10:50

that time this

10:51

siniaticus and the vaticanus these two

10:54

that you see here

10:55

are possibly two of those codices that

10:58

were commissioned at that time

11:00

we don't know because we don't know how

11:01

many of them were finished we just know

11:03
that this was the what this is what the

11:05

intent was but those would have been

11:07

commissioned

11:08

by constantine who was very wealthy

11:10

being emperor of the entire empire at

11:11

that time

11:12

he could therefore afford parchment

11:14

that's why it would be nothing for him

11:15

to commission

11:17

books written out of parchment but that

11:19

only began in the fourth century so from

11:20

the fourth century on then of course

11:22

parchment became very popular

11:23

amongst the monks and of course amongst

11:27

the church which was very wealthy

11:30

we then come to the seventh century and

11:32

this is when islam

11:33

came to the fore uh this is what we've

11:36

been told

11:38

and what we're told is that immediately

11:41

after the death of muhammad in 632

11:46
you then get the first codex the first

11:49

codex

11:49

that was commissioned by a caliph a

11:51

caliph is a king caliph

11:53

abubakar in between 632-634

11:57

so as a king who was there in medina

12:00

according to the traditions is what the

12:02

traditions tell us

12:03

he would have been wealthy and he would

12:05

have been able to therefore

12:07

afford parchment he would not need

12:09

papyrus and that's why uh

12:11

when he commissioned zaide meant to be

12:13

to write out

12:14

the first quran that would have been on

12:16

parchment

12:17

20 years later 652

12:21

when uthman then has even though it

12:23

again

12:24

write a second quran that's known as the

12:26

utmonic recession

12:28
he by that time he controlled all the

12:31

way from tripoli all the way

12:32

to afghanistan all that land was under

12:35

his control according to the tradition

12:36

i'm always going to say that according

12:37

to the traditions so he would have been

12:39

enormously wealthy

12:40

he would have never used papyrus and

12:43

there's no reason for any caliph of his

12:46

note to have used par

12:47

papyrus so he would have used parchment

12:49

again so that earliest manuscript

12:52

by abu bakr would have been in parchment

12:53

so with the one in 652

12:55

that would have been in parchment and

12:57

the five copies he made to the five

12:59

cities would have all been on parchment

13:01

some said well what about vellum vellum

13:02

is actually another form it's similar to

13:05

parchment but it comes from

13:06

calves much much younger and therefore

13:08
they have much

13:10

nicer finer skin and that's why

13:13

they are very very very expensive i

13:15

don't know whether these were

13:17

made on vitamin we're not told what we

13:19

are told is that these codices were

13:20

created

13:21

and that's why the first quran would

13:22

have been on these codices written on

13:24

parchment

13:25

what we do know is that the earliest

13:27

manuscripts that

13:28

have been have uh come down to us that

13:31

are still extant today

13:33

like the topkapa which is there in

13:36

istanbul in the topkapi museum like the

13:39

samarkand manuscript which is in tusket

13:41

in uzbekistan

13:42

like the one that is in the british

13:44

library the 2165 manuscript

13:47

or the metropolitan manuscript which is

13:50
in

13:51

paris in france or the husseini

13:54

manuscript which

13:55

is there in cairo in egypt or even the

13:58

salah manuscript which was discovered in

14:01

the 1970s

14:02

there in sana in yemen all of these six

14:04

major manuscripts which

14:06

are available i have the top copy right

14:09

here that's it right up there

14:10

there's the topkapi the top copy all of

14:13

these

14:13

would have been written and are written

14:15

on parchment they're not

14:17

written on papyrus they were all written

14:19

on animal skins

14:21

animal skins are durable all of these

14:23

manuscripts continue until today

14:24

the sinaiticus the allison dryness are

14:26

still available they're still pristine

14:28

you can go to the british library go to

14:29
the blue back gallery

14:30

and you can see this cine hat because

14:32

it's almost as nice today as the day it

14:34

was made because it's made on

14:35

animal skin that's why

14:39

the question i'm asking is perfectly

14:40

relevant where

14:42

is or where are these five

14:45

parchments of uthman five of them

14:49

sent to five different cities written on

14:50

animal skins not on papyrus

14:53

you can't ask the same question of the

14:54

earliest biblical matters because

14:56

because papyrus would have disintegrated

14:58

within 100 years that's why we only have

14:59

little bits and bits and bits of

15:01

fragments but we have so many

15:02

tens of thousands of them that we can

15:04

piece them together and by the fourth

15:06

century then

15:06

when constantine was able then to with

15:08
his will to then commission

15:11

these manuscripts like the sinaiticus

15:14

the vaticanus later on the alexandrians

15:17

which comes in the fifth century

15:18

those are all written on parchment on

15:20

animal skin

15:22

if we could come up with three complete

15:24

manuscripts

15:25

of the new testament by the fifth

15:27

century

15:29

where in the world are these five

15:31

manuscripts

15:32

parchment manuscripts written by uthman

15:34

commissioned by uthman and sent to five

15:36

cities

15:36

i just want one i just want one

15:40

so don't get upset with me when i seem

15:42

to when you think i'm

15:43

actually not being consistent i am being

15:46

consistent but you need to understand

15:48

the technology that was used to create

15:50
the earliest biblical script manuscripts

15:51

was not did

15:52

did not did not include parchment they

15:55

all they had because they were poor

15:57

were papyrus that excuse

16:00

muslims you can't make because all of

16:03

your manuscripts were created by caliphs

16:05

and none of them were created by poor

16:07

people they were all created by people

16:08

who were

16:09

enormously wealthy and the earliest

16:11

manuscripts we have today are all on

16:13

parchment

16:15

therefore there is no excuse for you not

16:17

to have these parchment steak because

16:19

those parchments last for

16:21

hundreds thousands of years watch maybe

16:23

shouldn't say thousands but at least

16:25

uh we know that the ones that we have uh

16:27

for the biblical manuscripts are now

16:28

1700 years old oh coming up on to 2000

16:31
years there are parchments that go all

16:32

the way back

16:33

we there are parchments in museums from

16:36

greek poetry that go right back to

16:38

the the time be long before christ

16:41

hundreds of years before christ and

16:42

that's almost like 2 400

16:44

to 2500 years ago and they're still

16:46

pristine today

16:47

you have no excuse not to have your

16:50

parchments
16:51

where are your parchments that's all i'm

16:53

asking

16:54

i would just like one of the five

16:57

one of the five and please stop showing

16:59

me the top copy

17:00

or the samarkand or the mail or the

17:03

who's

17:04

who zany i don't want to look at those

17:06

because those are all 8th

17:08

and 9th center we haven't even got into

17:09
the manuscript evidence

17:11

i don't want you to keep pushing those

17:13

or even the birmingham folios those two

17:15

pages those two pages those two pages

17:17

that you keep on throwing at me and say

17:19

listen that shows that they're from the

17:20

seventh century we're going to confront

17:22

all of that later on

17:24

but can you understand why i'm asking

17:26

this question can you understand why i'm

17:28

not being inconsistent can you now

17:29

understand

17:30

why the muslims are so fearful because

17:32

there's no excuse

17:34

for them not to have these manuscripts

17:37

there's no excuse

17:38

for them not being able to trace back

17:40

this book

17:41

1700 years that's not very long ago not

17:44

for parchment

17:45

not for vellum for papyrus yes

17:48
so we would not expect to have the

17:51

papyrus

17:52

for our new testament not today you

17:55

can't make that excuse

17:56

god bless you this has been jay over and

17:59

out

18:27

you