Luce irrigaray

Student :She was really like the lacan because is about a child starts
talking when she is in mother womb and she starts that its really
dark and frozen or poson ??I can not bare this situation I can not
move and it goes on that mother birth and she feels the light and
whats deel is that my body is freeze and I can not move ,you can not
impose yourself , I mean the whole text text was kind of negative
motherhood which in our morality is not acceptable because we
always view our mothers with so much gratitude feeling that why do
you feed me give me milk and she is really absorbed about this , I
think for me it was a bit viered ?? and then she goes on
Master:
Im sorry you believed that irigaray is opposed in mother hood?
Student : I think … claims the child is not satisfied with the situation
and then she says that when you live me for example when you go
for father or when you go cooking im going to live you one day too
and find some one for my self im going to have my own life house ,it
was totally related to the lacan that previous semester we had , and I
not blaming that are they both together or are they separated It was
always slash you me ,me you another thing is that she says that you
wanted to we wanted to a kind of experience your life that you
brought me and sorry I cannot complete for you she says I have my
own make up my own dresses and im going to shape myself as the
mother at the end that the mother is so old and is dying she says
that your going underground its like that im a version of you im going
to give birth to another child and about the images and the mirror it
was a kind of those fragmented
Proph : so it’s the girl ,daughter says as if im the mirror of you you
look at me ,as if you are seeing yourself
 Student : about the relationship between mpther and child , child
says you all the time take care of me give me milk … master:So this
relation ship between mother and daughter do you think it’s a
healthy relationship? Yes I think is ,yes? But she say that its not
because we do not have the perspective of the mother but the child
is totally upset about the situation ,so is this healthy ? I mean is this
ok?the relation ship is allright ? having such relation ship between
mother and daughter ?mother is imposing so much herself on the
baby she is breast within her ,she says I do not like that , another
student :… as if mother imprisoned daughter and master :what about
when she tells her Im gonna leave you and find my own man? what
is that part? Its like now as the mother sees herself in the child the
child also has this feature that she wants to become some one to be
a mother ,to have a man for herself master :and when she reaches
the man is the relation ship again positive? no it’s a kind of jealousy
that why you leave me for some one else , no I mean the girl and the
man and those parts he says I will be the one that he wants me to be
I will do make up and the rest for him and I will fashion my face in
the way that he likes ,student : she says that other objects and the
man can shape me I will be what ever he wants
What do you feel we have such conclusion to that piece ,I mean just
imagine if it was right relationship between the mother and daughter
would it actually end up like that ? and I will just be an object for
another man ? so whats problematic here? you know what you
actually raised and you say it’s a bit viered its not irrigaray herself
believes in , its something that she is objecting to ,she is not saying
that the relation ship between mother and daughter should be like
this ,she is presenting that this is the problematic relationship
between the mother and daughter and if you want to have a better
society first we have to create this relationship and is again related
to the psyche of women and its related to how we create our
identity we have to understand irrigarays ideas first and then you
understand what you means here because she objecting to such
relationship
Student :I think she is taking about the struggles that women
undertake in the period of motherhood and she is objectifying the
fact that my mother takes care of me more than herself and she says
that this is wrong
Student: Some part daughter thinks yes she is a part of her mother
as if she remains in imaginary orders in my idea ,is that true ? as if
they are one
master :its not what irrigaray believes that should be like that ,it’s
the problem , you should understand about irrigarays central point
and that’s sexual difference , you have heard a lot about other and
otherness of women , we can say even Sholters ?? for example she
talks about the second sex or Asimon ?? talking about the second sex
, they say that we have just man and then women are the other to
men , what actually they disregard as the relationship of man as
subject and women as object , ok ? and they believe this is otherness
we should be the same but what irrigaray actually tells us is we
should understand the sexual difference and you know we say on the
surface it seems that there are you know women are the other of the
men but irrigaray says its not enough is the other we have just the in
western and even in eastern culture and philosophy ,she says we
have just one subject and that one subject is that male subject and

and when and where even you go to philosophy you go to

psychoanalysis all the time, although there are patients for example,
Freud's patients for most often were women, but he talks about the
male psyche, how it is created and become male as male identity and
male subject and when he talks about girl and her way of
.development
He calls a negative Oedipus complex and later on, you come and talk
about electoral complex, this idea of negative Oedipus complex or
when he talks about their phallus as, as the having the power when
she she, he comes to the girl, she talks about penis envy, so it means
this lack what irrigaray actually talks is that all the time in philosophy
in psychoanalysis psychology, when they want to talk about female
subject, it's just one as if it is a deformed form of man, man as the
subject and we are just the deformed form of the main subject, even
the sexual organ as if the main one is male sexual organ and then a
deformed form is for women. So what she actually says is that we
should make it clear that there is sexual differences, and we
shouldn't actually regard one by comparing it to the other from the
beginning These are different and it's not actually comparable, saying
that this is just a deformed form of the other. And all the time. She
says that women are related to or refer to as mothers and mother to
nature and this nature as opposed to culture. So nature meaning
irrationality, and just feeling and not having rationality on their own
part. And so she actually finds fault with Freud's idea. First of all, that
he just talks about male psyche and not girls. And again, this idea
that for him, he believes that the creation of the subject of a woman
is just by separation and from the maternal body or what she calls
matricide, matricide, killing of the mother. So, the way that even
lacan says and she also is critical of lacans idea that we have
imaginary order and then by entering symbolic order it’s a kind of
separation a violent separation from mother as if you know without
separating or rejecting your mother you cant have your subjectivity
so in the way that lacan actually talks about the psyche of people in
the both men and women and when freud talks or when hume talks
about the psyche of men and women its like they have ignored all
together about the rule of the mother in creation or construction of
the identity of that subject either you know men or women and its
not just this kind of subjectifying either men or women we can say
threatening and disadvantages you know for the boy he has to reject
his mother inorder to gain subjectivity and this rejection is rejecting
one part of himself and that part of himself so if he identify hisfather
with his own father this identification actually intels?? rejection of
the mother for girls you remembers we talked in electro complex ,
we said in the relationship between mother and daughter they are
competiters there is a competition and they are rivals so you see it
doesn’t seem healthy actualy for the mother and the daughter to
compete for the love of the father so these two mother and
daughter all the time in the life they are consider as the rivals and
this idea that the y want to dominate at the other one that’s why
irrigaray says at the end we end up with two kinds of mothers one
she calls it phallic mother and the other one submissive mother and
you see that phallic mother in the piece you read that there is a
mother wants to impose herself on her daughter all the time wants
to conquer her and so this is the phallic mother the one ,you know
that inside her psyche this rivalry is so much bold and you know
that’s why all the time she wants to defeat actually or conquer her
daughter and so when we have this phallic mother imposing her self
so what is the acts of daughter ,daughter wants to free away her
mother, she says I want to leave you why you impose yourself on me
and you actually you are ….me so that’s why the girl wants to leave
that phallic empowering imposing mother ,leave her and just free
away scape from home again on the other hand some women would
end up according to this philosophy by freud and lacan that we have
matricide rivalry and rejection of the maternal body the other is the
submissive women the submissive mother and both are disastrous to
this relation ship between mother and children so they would
actually end up either as a phallic mother or a submissive mother
,submissive mother is the one that is accepted ,he is her being a
dominated by the other forces dominated by the girl dominated by
the phallic symbol by the father ,so they either become so powerful
and imposing or the submisive and not having identity for
themselves mothers and both are ,we said both are disastrous in the
relationship between the mother and her children ,so for submissive
there is a part we read together if your so With the daughter tells
her mother your so weak I don’t like you ,my father is much more
powerful , I will turn away from you and turning to my father so the
girl doesn’t want either the overpowering imposing mother or
submissive and weak ,she doesn’t want to find herself like this weak
person ,she wants strong mother but not strong in a sense of
imposing and not recognizing her sexuality or here space ,we see
when she says that you will leave this world and I continue
generation and I will have my own daughter so its like as if the
mother is … they call …18:14I mean mother is responsible for care of
the daughter and make her ready for the husband and having you
know children and this generation goes on and on that’s why again
this idea of imposing herself and not letting her to have her own
space because what is important for irrigaray is having your own
private space , private space is very important we talked about it ,so
here the mother who has been traditionally brought up and she
would just care that the daughter does not actually we can say go
astray and having experimental relationship between the lovers and
not being in this direction of preducing legitimate children so here is
like making here ready for husband for another man and then
become a mother and this is repeated again and again so when she
says I will have my own daughter you feel that this girl was not been
told to have her own space to respect herself and do not allow
others to overpower her she will actually bring out another girl like
herself that’s why they become mirror to each other ,the mother
feels that the girl is the mirror to her ,this mirror because again she
believes that the only rule for her is …determined to be a mother for
her self ,whats actually important according to irrigaray is to change
our mind about the way we come to have our own subjects ,so
according to her ,frued is actually make a mistake by just comparing
women as the deformed form of men again lacan just by talking
about imaginary order and symbolic order this symbolic order he
says when I say ,remember lacan said father is symbolic not
necessarily biological father and phallus as the symbol is not really
the main sexual organ that’s what lacan claims but irrigaray tells and
again he says when the child interest the language this is ahistorical
language that you enter ,and gain you know your identity ,irrigaray
reject this ideas and says when you say this is not biological phallus
its just on the surface you are claiming but in reality there are when
we have the power this phallus is really the sexual organ its really
man having power we cannot deny it we cannot just say its symbolic
its not related to man ,it is related to man and man has the power so
its not like what you say and again he says in the same way that child
he lookat the mirror and see his or her own perfect image in the
imaginary order we whole culture we whole society has its own
imaginary order and the image that he or she sees is the male image
and not a faminane or female imaginary ok , so the ideal is the male
identity ,male subject as the ideal ,you remember in the imaginary
order the baby would look at him self and see how handsome I am
remember and that’s the ideal image with out fragmentation and
later on by entering the symbolic order this becomes fragmented so
here it says for the whole society like a child there is an ideal image
but this ideal image for both men and women is just one and that’s
the ideal image of the man and male sexual organ as the dominant
power and again lacan says the language is ahistoric , irrigaray says
who says it’s ahistoric when we say a historic it means it remains
static and stable not changeable , ahistoric mean its not related to
history but irrigaray says the language itself is historical and at each
historical period it changes and within it self it has ,you know
depending on the culture of the time the language changes and
when we are living in a patriarchal culture and society so the
language all the time the words would be we can say putting women
in the inferior position and man in the superior position so the
language is very important when we are cultured the language will
used for women the language will use for men for example a very
brief example the word spinster we see man not marring and that’s
alright as if the society has accepted that men can have a choice and
if they don’t want to married you see they are still men just talking
about language there are still called man and it has no dragitory?
sense but a girl according to the age which is limited by the culture of
you know people some times back in to some decades earlier a girl
of 18 or 19 if she would pass this age she would call as spinster some
one who has passed her prime life and not still married it was a
disgrace for a family just you know decades earlier but you know it
changes now it about 30 ,I don’t know something like that but
anyway still they are are looked it negatively and the word spinster ,
these words have negative connotations they are dragitory it shows
what it shows the culture so culture and language the steriotipical
words that we use in race , race relation ships you see it a lot ,those
stereotype you know characteristic assign to black people for
example ,you know the monkey for example the things that they
would tell Africans for example so these are the words and these
words are not a historic and with out any relation ship to the culture
to the history of the time they are coming from culture and from one
culture to another they would differ ,from one historical period to
another they change its not without change so here these are the
things that she founds fault with lacan that what you say phallus
symbol has nothing to do with male biological, male is wrong it has
relationship with them and again the language we enter you see is
historical its not ahistorical it comes from culture and it changes and
it depends how we think ,we would define you know the idea of
masculine the rules of masculine ,the rules of feminine who is a good
roman these are the things that we describe we define with our
words ,ok? And it affects our identities so when she rejects these
ideas she comes up with another way of looking at the way that the
baby comes to recognize herself or himself as a subject ,she is
looking for some thing or some philosophy some psycho analysis or
psychology to make men and women separate so she believes in
sexual difference , it means what when we say sexual difference and
even some feminists they reject irrigarays idea and they say you are
essentialist
‫یه حالت‬ ‫وقتی جندر استادی بخونید خیلی اوقات میگه نه تنها میگه جندر‬
‫ساختگی داره و کانستراکت شده حتی سکشوالتی هم ساخته شده وقتی اونایی که میخوان‬
‫حاال مثال جولیت باتلر حاال اگه بخونید وقتی داره راجع به هوموسکشوالتی صحبت‬
‫ میگه حی سکشوالتی کانستراکتد هست که برای همین ما میگیم هتروسکشوال‬، ‫میکنه‬
‫ اونا با ایریگری مخالف هستن که میگه سکشوال دیفرنس اصال وجود داره‬، ‫ارجع هست‬
‫اون میگه نه حتی سکشوال دیفرنس هم به صورت کانستراکتد هست پس اینجوری نیست‬
‫که ایریگری بدون مخالف باشه‬
But anyway what she says he get familiar with her ideas and it
depends on you if you accept her or not but so the way that she
wants to change the whole idea of ,the way we get our subjectivity is
to care for the period of time before the mother gives birth to a child
,in all this psychology they have ignored this part of nine month that
the baby is in the mothers womb as if it has no relationship ,creates
no relationship between mother and the baby but now this you
understand that its very intimate relationship at that time and if we
ignore this relation ship its like a baby whose born has to forget
about all these ideas and reject maternal body so it affects and it
become harmful for the psyche of the baby not just for the girl also
for the boy to reject that part of his own psyche so what she actually
believes is that we have prenatal period , the time that the baby …or
stays in and that suasion is invisible ,invisible suasion of baby in the
uterus or at the womb ,this womb according to irrigaray its real its
physical and the baby is really there , why she stresses on its reality
because if you remember in archetypal studying archetypal an
approach to literature he say see an water are archetype for a
mother and this man or women now but they speak or talk about
man just desiring the desire for the return to the mothers womb we
have such thing for archetype and in psychoanalysis even freud talks
about this desire or a return for mothers womb but for freud this
return is fantastic , its not something real its just a desire just some
fantasy in the mind of you know man and that’s why when irrigaray
talks about an envelope or the space ,she says men have their space ,
men have their space first in the mothers womb then when they
come when the wife they choose the wife resembles their mother so
as if they are gaining again the space the body of the female body
again becomes the space for man so men have their space and that’s
the body of ,the mothers body or even the wife or women they are
with again they look at it as another womb , but what about women
or female space in that , that’s why she talks about apace so we will
talk about it later but I finished this point so this uterus ??or womb
its not something fantastic its something real and this is related to
the time for the baby before his or her birth ,besides irrigaray and
then i want to explain the difference between irrigaray or cristiva
,julie cristiva ,again another feminist , cristiva is also another famous
feminist and she also talks about psyche of women ,she is also
influence by lacan but she opposes to some part of lacan but for
most part she agrees with lacan , cristiva , but she just add some
point to his psychoanalysis , she says there is period what she calls it
chora , chora for cristiva is the movements or the redeem ?? of you
know the time that the baby is in the womb of her mother the
redeem of ,because the baby is somehow suspended in the liquid
inside the uterus so its not some thing fixed its fluid around the baby
and when the mother works this the baby actually fluids inside that
liquid inside that the womb so the redeem the baby gains from that
period of experiencing womb she says the redeem and the senses
they become when the baby is born ,they become part of symbolic
language, so when we say this chora makes that semiotic part of
language ,she believes that there are two parts symbolic language
and semiotic ,symbolic is the one related to syntax to the grammar
to the logic of the language and that’s male dominated ,ok ? so the
‫‪syntax and the grammar or the symbolic part of language but‬‬
‫‪language she says its not just symbolic part but also semiotic ,this‬‬
‫‪semiotic is the intonations ups and downs ,you know the way we talk‬‬
‫‪or the poetry for example the prosody which is rhythmic, rhythmic‬‬
‫‪prosody which are part of language and they have the embedded in‬‬
‫‪symbolic they come from you know female maternal body affecting‬‬
‫‪in these fracturations and these rhythmic pattern but at the end for‬‬
‫‪cristiva when they comes the baby come this part of maternal‬‬
‫‪influence on the language is embedded inside the symbolic language‬‬
‫‪and only those rhythmic parts are related to female and maternal‬‬
‫‪internal body‬‬
‫هم کریستوا راجع به این مترنال بادی صحبت میکنه هم ایریگری ‪ ،‬یعنی یه جورایی کال‬
‫میخوان این سایکی که براشون برای فیمیل سایکی ساختن یا حتی میل سایکی به عنوان‬
‫سابجکتیویتی در نظر گرفتن که هر کسی از این سایکالوجیست هایی که اومدن همشون‬
‫یه جوری اینو برنامه ریزی کردن کهمیگن که اره ادم ها کال چه مرد چه زن به این‬
‫صورت سابجکتیویتی ابجکتیویتی شون بدست میاد که همشون وقتی نگاه میکنی همشون‬
‫یه جورایی اول انگار میل سایکی هست بعد فیمیل سایکی و همشون یه جورایی لک رو‬
‫برای فیمیل گذاشتن همین اینکه شما بخوای یک گرل رو در نظر بگیری که کل‬
‫ایدنتیتیش و سابجکتیویتیش بر اساس پینس انوی و کامپتیشن با مادر بوجود میاد درنظر‬
‫بگیر این ادم میتونه هلثی باشه ؟که اصال کل زندگیش از اولی که به دنیا اومده تا وقتی‬
‫که به سابجکت رسیده براساس لک هست‬
‫‪Because with this envy the girl understands that she lacks something‬‬
‫‪so when you’re a subjectivity‬‬
‫وقتیکه فیمیل سابجکتیویتی برای سکشوال اورگان خودش ارزشی قایل نمیشه به عنوان‬
‫یک هویت جدا به عنوان یک بادی جدا در نظر گرفته نمیشه و سکشوالتی زن براساس‬
‫مرد تعریف میشه براساس یه لک تعریف میشه نداشتن یه عضو تعریف میشه این چیزی‬
‫که ایریگری داره میگه اشتباه هست و برا همین خیلی اصرارداره رو سکشوال دیفرنس‬
‫و اینجوری نیست که ما بخوایم هر چیزی که وقتی میرسیم به زن ‪،‬همش تعریف های ما‬
‫جوری که انگار یه لکی داره و دختری که قرار این شکلی بزرگ بشه و همش هم با‬
‫کامپتیشن مادرش هست مطمعنا چیزی بهتر از اون چیزی که خوندین نمیشه پس اینی که‬
‫خوندین این نیستش که ایریگری یه همچین مفهومی باور داره بهش میگه این اشتباه‬
Ok that’s problematic relationship between mother and daughter
and why we have such problematic relationship because what ever
we talk about you know our psyche is based on some prejudices
against women but we should rethink about them why we have
actually excluded those part of the baby is with the mother first in
the uterus then when the baby is born throughout all the stages
before we will earning language is with the mother and the very
close relationship between this breastfeeding or even toilet training
or even the way that they go and come together ,the interact with
the each other so how come we can actually ignore this parts and
again when she says why should we have lack on sexual organ of the
women she says because we have this patriarchal psyche in our
culture they believe that the main part is the man sexual organ and
they did not see it that first before that sexual organ first it was
umbilical cord as life giving , its like first we had umbilical cord as life
giving it’s the way that the baby if fed in the uterus And then breast
feeding by the mother and later on when the boy grows up you know
his sexual organ becomes a way of creating life for another baby so
because we have patriarchal ideology imposing itself we see that
which comes later after this sexual organs of the woman as the
dominant we had ignored the whole thing before that so this is the
way of revising of the whole psychology of the way that both man
and boys and girls come to have their own identity and objectivity
and subjectivity and she does not see that this is now the female
organ is superior says no its like even she makes fun of that umbilical
cord and sexual organhe says this one is first and the one that gives
because you know for freud this is the deformed one of male organ ,
female organ is a deformed for of a male organ and now she says
male organ could be the deformed form of the umbilical cord but she
just its just fun its not like really now saying that we are superior and
women and female sexuality is superior ,she says just different , they
are different we cant compare one to the other , its not like that if
you want to talk about male psyche talk about according to its own
criteria ,his own criteria and women according to them and their
sexual organ , you know she has written a book about female sexual
organ and talking about how it is not only a defect but also about the
orgasm and the rest of it the way that it is complete in it self its not
thing , it does not lack anything and again in archetypes everything
concave and whole is considered as female sexual organ ,actually
seen in archetypal criticism archetype anything that you know
concave like a ball
‫ما کانوکس داریم و کانکیو دیگه و کانکیو یه چیز فارسیش البته تو عربی فارسی هم‬
‫ خب همون همین‬.. ‫ چی بود ؟ محدب و مقعر واها محدب اینی که‬.. ‫نیست بین محدب و‬
‫میشه کانکیو و کانوکس هم برعکسش‬
Whatever was concave or whole was considered in archetypal
criticism in literature you see something like a ball and they would
say its female sexual organ but she says it’s a whole , I mean this
whole it means empty but its not empty its nothing empty we cant
say everything which is whole and empty represents ,it again it
means lack it means this idea comes from our patriarchal we can say
ideology or thinking that we see that this empty so it represents
female organ but its not empty it has its own subjectivity ,its own
characteristics and im telling its like she is written a book about it
and describing how it affects the subjectivity so this is the idea of
sexual difference and when she talks about piece of talking to read I
loved you she talks about space , do you want to say something
about space ?
‫ این مثالی که اورده این مفهوم میخواد برسونه که زن ها به دنبال تضادشون با‬: ‫دانشجو‬
‫مرد هانباشن و نرن حقشون بخوان از مزد ها بگیرن بلکه به دنبال اثبات خودشون باشن‬
‫خب همین قضیه که وقتی که سکشوال دیفرنس رو بهش نپرداختن و همیشه یجورایی‬
‫دامینیت شده پس یعنی باید ما فکرمون رو عوض بکنیم و باور داشته باشیم به این‬
‫سکشوال دیفرنس و یه جورایی وقتی که ما فکرمون عوض بکنیم یه جورایی انگار داریم‬
‫ازمردا چیزی میخوایم دیگه یعنی چی ازشون میخوایم تغییر فکر رو ازشون میخوایم و‬
‫تغییر فکر نه اینکه فقط بخوان خانوما فکرشون تغییر بد ن چه فایده داره موضوع اینه که‬
‫همه بتید فکرشون عوض بشه‬
 ‫ این در خانوما هست که خودشون رو جنس دوم یا جنس در مخالف با مرد‬:‫دانشجو‬
‫میدونن خب اگع این تصحیح بشه به نظر شما اون ور هم تصحیح نمیشه‬
‫ خب دیگه برا همین داره میگه‬:‫استاد‬
If you want to make relationships correct first correct mother
daughter relationships
Master answer to another students idea :Return to the womb for
both man and women
The desire of mother in the third party It could be any third party but
just imagine this third party is when you go to … it means the society
most often third party exists somewhere in the society and what
irrigaray saying that this third party most often comes from or
affected by the dominants of man its not just where you work we
said even work could be some third party ,could be phallus because
it attracts the attention or makes the mother go away from the baby
so when you believe that all these things that distracts you actually is
exist some where in the society and the whole society it is
dominated by patriarchal idiologies so she says we cannot say that
this phallic has nothing to do with male power some how it is related
to male power maybe not directly but indirectly It has been affected
the things or duties assigned for women , the duties it could be
another third party ,the women has to attend to the house and not
being with the baby so the work that she does is some thing
separating mother and the baby so becomes the third party but the
thing that she does or has to do without even her really wanting to
do those things again it shows the duties assigned to female identity
or as feminine these are again ,are we can say regulated by the male
dominants does you know what she means it means that we cant
really disconnect this phallus from male dominants and mostly she
says that because she believes that …..