How  to  Develop  Your  Emotional  Intelligence  (EQ)  
To  Advance  Your  Career  
 
Module  IV:  Emotionally  Informed  Relationship  Skills  
Q&A  Session  
 
 
 
 
By  Victor  Cheng  
CaseInterview.com  
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

Victor: What I'll do now is spend some time answering any questions you may
have. So the first question is: “Sometimes drilling down and clarifying
needs may be perceived as interrogation or arrogance, especially with
more senior people or business owners. How do you draw the line and not
cross over?” So a lot of that has to do with intent and tone. One of the
things I will often say is, “I would really like to help you more on this
particular initiative. Would it be okay if I asked you a few questions?”

“Would you be willing to help me help you?” So those are two script
phrases that I will use. So again, particularly with someone more senior, if
you ask for permission first, then it's hard for them to object, and then
they'll consider, “Well, I did give the person permission.” So I'll go ahead
and do that. And this is where social awareness makes a big difference. As
you ask questions, they're either going to find the process very beneficial
to them, or not. If they're irritated, you will start to notice in the social
awareness cues -- crossing their arms, giving you short answers, turning
their body away, basically leaning out of the conversation. The asking of
questions to understand their needs is again dependent on the quality and
depth of the relationship you have with them. If they don't know you, it's
difficult to have a meaningful dialogue around that, even if you ask for
permission.

If they know your work, and your work is excellent, and they've benefited
from your work, they're going to answer your questions. They may not
want to do it right now. So maybe you start asking some questions and
you start realizing they seem resistant, like their social cues are resistant.
You might say, "Let me just check in real fast -- you seem like you're
hesitant to answer some of these questions. Is there's something you need
to do?” “Is this an inappropriate time, or would you want to reschedule for
a different time?” Or “Do you feel like this is not adding enough
value, given the time you have allotted for this?" Maybe they're late for a
phone call appointment, who knows? “No, I really want to have the
conversation. I just can't do it right now. Can we do it in half an hour?”

2:01 “No problem. I can do that.” So that's one way you can tell. Again, the
social awareness is important. And if you cross the line, you want to
notice early, and then finish on that question, ask to reschedule if you
think it's really just a timing issue, or if they're really not interested, then
you want to close that out. In a sales situation, it helps if you establish
credibility and your expertise up front. So there’s a step in a lot of types of
professional interactions where you want to establish credibility. One of
the benefits of establishing credibility first is that when you ask questions
about their situation, they're much more willing to answer them because
they feel like you know your stuff and can add value. If you are
completely clueless about your product and your industry, and you ask
someone to clarify their underlying needs, they won't tell you.

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

I've been on both sides of that conversation. I've had salespeople where it's
a complete waste of time, and they want to know my underlying needs,
and it’s like, “No.” I just say that – “No.” And if they ask, I’ll say, "No, I
just don't see any value in answering those questions." “Well, it'll help me
give a better sales presentation to you.” I'm like, "Well, I don't particularly
care to help you." But if you're very knowledgeable, you make
observations or give me suggestions about what you learn, that's a little
different. If I trust you that you have expertise, I'm more open, and more
willing to be open. So if you're doing it in that kind of context, credibility
from a pre-existing relationship or previous interactions can be useful in
getting more honest answers from them.

The next question and comment is: “There are not many good listeners. I
am trying to be a better listener. What psychological traits limit listening
without judgment? Basically, what has to change in a person so they listen
without judgment? Can one be more present and less lost in one's mind?”
So a great exercise (and this goes back to self-awareness and self-
regulation) and way to be present, which is a foundation for listening
without judgment, is to stop thinking so much.

04:01 And it's hard, because I do that a lot. And one of the exercises I suggested
in the earlier modules was a “mindfulness exercise.” And mindfulness, by
the way, is a term in the psychology industry. It's based on Buddhism, and
when you take out the spiritual aspects of Buddhism, it's called
“mindfulness.” And mindfulness really is: if you think of the five senses
that you have -- sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing -- and you ask yourself,
“Right now in this second, what are my five senses telling me?” One, I'm
looking at my slide that says “Questions and Answers.” Two, I am hearing
a squeak in my chair that I'm sitting on because it's a little bit old. I'm
hearing my kids’ pets in the other room squeaking (because I think they're
hungry), so I'm going to check on them later.

I don't smell anything. I'm not touching anything, other than the firm chair
I'm sitting on. I'm noticing that. And so that's one way to be more present
is to kind of go through the five senses. Do it every hour, and say, "What
am I seeing now?" And noticing -- when you notice external
things, you can't be thinking at the same time. I don't know if that's 100%
true, but it's mostly true or at least somewhat true. If you are being
observational, that is very different than being lost in your own thoughts
and your own ideas. So that is a key to noticing social awareness and body
language. It is a key to being a non-judgmental listener.

The second piece is to work on your curiosity. So I had someone in my

Inner Circle who asked me about this. “How do you become a more
engaging listener? What if they're not that interesting?” And I was like,

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

"You know, I disagree with that." The person I was talking to had a very
unusual background, in terms of the countries she had lived in and
languages she speaks, and they're not the typical combination. So I said,
“For example, like you. You mentioned that you grew up in country A, but
then you went to school in country B.”

06:01 “And you speak that language, and you speak a third language here in the
United States. How does that happen? That's so fascinating! I'm
genuinely curious. There's a story there that I don't know but that I would
love to know at some point. I'm really curious about that.” So listening
without judgment is being more present, just generally in terms of your
senses, then being focused on the other person and being genuinely
interested and curious. There is something interesting about them --
assume it. Just assume you don't know what it is yet if you can't tell. Shift
the mental and intellectual emphasis from you and your thoughts to them,
their thoughts, and their feelings. A part of it's an orientation.

One more psychological trait I think that gets in the way and makes it
harder to listen attentively without judgment is anxiety. Anxiety is over-
thinking the future. So one way is to say, "I'm going to worry about that
later." Those anxieties will still be there in 10 minutes. Trust me, they will.
I know from personal experience. And say, "I only have this opportunity
to understand this particular person in front of me." Make a conscious
choice to do that. One thing that prompts people to lose focus and not
listen without judgment is: not listening with intention.

So when I'm listening to somebody with intention, I'll say to myself, “I've
got nine million things on my mind. I'm going to just breathe for a second.
I'm going to calm my mind down. I'm going to tell myself that those things
I need to deal with, I'm going to deal with in 10 minutes, but not now. And
I'm going to look at this person. I want to pay attention to them. I want to
be in this moment with them.” And you can literally say that to yourself.
So no matter your skill level (good, bad or different), if you do that and be
intentional, it helps.

08:00 The next question is: “I don't have direct reports at work, and have to get
my work done through others,” (Welcome to the club; I’ve been there
many times.) “In this virtual leadership, I face difficulty at times. Even
after an agreement on a request, I see people faltering on the deadline. Can
you suggest how to handle such situations?” Here is my suggestion on
that. Raise the issue with the other person, and ask them for how they
would like you to deal with that particular situation. So I’ve had this
conversation with my kids. I'll say, "Hey girls, I’m having this challenge,
which is: tonight, in particular, I've asked you to do your chores. I've

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

counted, and it's actually been nine times I've asked you to get ready for
bed. All of you have ignored me the first eight times."

“So that doesn't work well for me. I feel like I'm not important. I'm feeling
dismissed. I'm feeling, frankly, a little hurt. How would you like me to
handle that situation going forward? I could get mad, I could yell at you,
but then you’d feel bad. And then Id feel bad for yelling you, and it kind
of really stinks. I could do that, but I really don't want to. What else can
we do? What do you guys think? How would you like me to handle it?"
So part of it then makes not meeting their deadlines now a joint problem.

And you can say, "Bob, I know you don't formally report to me, but we
work together. One of the challenges is that I rely on deadlines to do my
work and everyone else's work. And the last few times, the deadlines have
been missed. Just wondering, how would you like me to handle that going
forward? Given that deadlines and knowing when work's going to be
completed impacts everyone else on the team, how can we handle that?
What do you suggest?" You could also do it at a team level. So sometimes
that might sound a little confrontational (as I say it out loud) to one
person, but you might get the entire virtual team together, like six people.

10:00 And then you say, "Hey everyone, I just noticed this particular situation
that I'd like to get your input on and reach a team decision on. One of them
is on deadlines. For our work to be effective, we need to have
predictability about when work will be done. We have a choice to make.
When we have deadlines and we commit to them, are these like real
commitments or fake commitments? Do we expect follow through and
that our culture is: if I say Monday morning at 9 A.M., it's done on
Monday morning at 9 A.M.? Or do we want to say if it's done within 24
hours of Monday at 9 A.M., that that also counts?” So you can put it to the
group to say, "How do we want to define what a deadline means?" And
then you can say, "What happens if we miss? How do you think we should
handle that? What would be appropriate? What if it’s missed more than
once?” Because these create other problems when others can't rely on
work, in terms of the schedule.

And ask them, and make it a team exercise. I would say to do that, the
tone is important. You don't want it to be an angry, judgmental tone. You
want to say, “Hey, there's this situation coming up. Since it impacts all of
us, I thought we could put it on the table and try to come up with a joint
solution that we all agree to.” And then you brainstorm whatever the
solution is -- it almost doesn't matter what it is, as long as it's a reasonable
one. When you get consensus on it, there's a very important step at the end
that you want to do.

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

You want to summarize what's being proposed: “So it sounds like we want
to have hard deadlines, so that Monday 9 A.M. means 9 A.M., and that if a
deadline is missed, the first step is for the project manager (in this case,
me) sends a quick note. And then if it's missed more than 24 hours, it
sounds like we've all agreed that as a project manager, I'm supposed to
email this entire group pointing out that one person was late, and name
them by name. Is that what I understand that everyone is proposing?” So
you can kind of paraphrase. You can say, “It sounds pretty aggressive, but
if you're all okay with that, I'm okay with that. But I want you to know I
don't feel comfortable doing that without everyone's permission.”

11:59 “So Bob, given that proposal, and that plan for how we would handle
deadlines being missed, are you okay with that? Are you okay with
signing up to follow that agreement? Bob, what do you think?” Bob
is like, "Yes, okay." “Mary, is there anything you want to add to this, or
are you comfortable with this commitment that you will make in this
process? Are you comfortable, Mary, with that commitment?” “Jane, are
you comfortable signing up for this commitment that our deadlines are
hard, you'll get one quick conversation, and then if it's past 24 hours, by
mutual agreement, I'm going to email the whole group pointing out that
we're late because of Mary or Jane or Joe or myself, for example. Are you
okay with that?”

But literally, no matter how many people are in the room, you want every
person to agree. If it's less than, say, ten people, you want a verbal
agreement. You want them to say ‘yes,’ and it's very important it is done
socially in front of the rest of the team. Because now there's peer pressure,
and there's a psychology behind peer pressure, which we can't get into, but
everyone else has seen somebody make the verbal commitment in front of
others, and that carries more weight -- social weight, if not authoritative
weight, in terms of “I can fire you,” but a social humiliation risk factor
(for lack of a better phrase) that helps draw enforceability. Let’s say
they agree to the process. Everyone agrees, and then one person still
doesn't do it. You can call them out on it in a team meeting, particularly if
you've agreed to this in advance.

“Jane, a month ago, we talked about a process for meeting deadlines. We

discussed if a deadline was missed, I'd be sending out a quick note within
a few hours, and if a deadline was missed past 24 hours, I’d send a note to
the entire team saying the entire project is held up because of a particular
person, and name that person. If it was still was being missed, we decided
that I would raise the issue in the team meeting in front of everybody. So
here I am not sure what to do, because a month ago, I asked if you were
okay signing up and committing to this process. It hasn't happened, so
Jane, what should the rest of us do?”

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

14:01 And then just be quiet. That's a bit aggressive, so it’s better to
have agreement that that's what you going to do in advance. For anything
very aggressive, or more accountability-oriented, particularly when you
don't have formal authority, you want permission before there's ever an
incident involved. And you want permission from everybody. Now if you
add people to the team who didn't make the initial agreement, what you
now have established is a team culture. A team culture is a set of rules of
governing behavior that everyone on the team agrees to. When you bring
someone on board a new team, you want to onboard them. You want to
disclose all of the rules to make sure they're aware of them, and let them
know that this team is already in motion, and being on this team means
agreeing to this particular culture and set of rules. “Are you okay with
that? Do you still want to be on the team?” So that's how you get
somebody on board.

So that's the process for handling that. It works great with co-workers and
peers. I do with my kids -- even though I could use the “authority figure
thing,” I don't, because I want them to learn these skills through practice
and role modeling. I will do that to them, in terms of, “You tell me how
you want to handle it.” “That process works for me, I'll agree to it,
and then we'll follow it going forward.” It's a good way to build greater
accountability, and you may not always have formal authority, or choose
not to use it.

The next question is: “How do you find out about the underlying
needs from someone who is generally very reserved and non-
confrontational, but is your manager? My old boss had a poker face and
never shared much about what he wants or needs. Even if I asked in
certain ways, I never seemed to get very honest answers. How do you get
people to give you honest answers, especially when they are your
manager?” Okay, so this is where a social awareness and emotionally
informed decision-making comes into play. You can't make somebody do
something they don't want to do. This manager will be less effective
because they're not sharing information that's useful for people like you
and others.

15:59 The best you can do is to follow all the steps I've outlined, but there will
be people who will not share. You have to accept that there's nothing you
can do about it. Now it's different if it is a one-time interaction. So if I
meet somebody for all of 20 minutes, they don't share very much -- that's a
tough situation that's very unlikely to be successful if they're very reserved
and they just don't want to share. However, if it's an ongoing relationship
with someone who doesn't share what they're thinking or feeling, as you
noticed, it's very hard to have a productive relationship with them. It
creates a lot more work for you. So other than what I've shared in the
class, I don't have any suggestions for what you can do. The thing I would

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

encourage you to think about is: recognize there's emotional cost there. So
there is information you need from your boss that your boss will not give
or is extremely reluctant to give. That impacts your ability to be effective.
That impacts your career, and your career progression.

Because one thing I will ask my boss always is, "What do I need to do to
get promoted to the next level?” or, “What do I need to do to get a raise?"
If they will not tell me, do you know what that means? That means I'm
not going to get a raise. I'm not going to get a promotion, or it's not
available. So there's a constraint that you may not be able to remove in
that relationship, short of leaving the relationship. One thing I would
suggest is to just lay it out on the table and say, "Boss, I really want to
work here and be really effective. But honestly, I am really struggling. I
am trying to figure out how to do a great job for you.”

“I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is you want and need from
my performance. I'd like to give it to you, but I just need some guidance.
Can you share with me -- what is your goal for the department? What do
you need from the role I'm in? How do you feel about how things are
going so far? Can you give me some information? Because I'm struggling
here to be effective without that information." So I would have a very
direct conversation -- super clear. Depending on what you're accustomed
to, it might feel a little confrontational, but I prefer to use the word
“direct.”

18:02 Direct means clear; confrontational means aggressive in tone. That's the
difference. See what they say. If you’ve had a couple of direct
conversations and you're not getting anything, then you have to accept that
you're not going to. And then you need to think about: how do you still get
your goals met if that information is never going to come forward? For me
personally, I would have a hard time working for a boss like that for very
long, because it would cause a long-term problem in my career, and I
would probably change jobs at some point. It may not be right away, but I
would look for a natural transition point, and that would be a major factor
in whether I took advantage of the transition point.

Next question: “When I'm fully absorbed in listening to someone talk,

when they finish talking, I haven't formulated any responses and there is
an awkward silence. How do you respond after fully listening?” I'm giving
an awkward silence right now. One thing you can do is to be honest and
transparent about your awkward silence. So what I was just thinking when
I had this awkward moment of silence was, “I am not sure what I want to
say.” You can just say that. And you can essentially think out loud. So
what I'm thinking out loud right now is, “Wow, what a really great
question.”

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

What I'm struggling with is: for me personally, I'm thinking as I'm
listening to somebody, but I'm also realizing that not everyone does that
naturally or can do that in parallel. So for me, I tend to think about what
people are saying, as they say it. I sometimes have questions that pop up,
or certain things jump out as really interesting that I want to learn more
about. And so when they pause their comment, I will either ask my
question or make my comment about the thing they just said that was very
interesting. Now what I'm thinking now is that if that's not what you
naturally do, and let's say for argument's sake, you can't change that very
easily, then I probably would just be pretty upfront about it.

20:00 I might say, "Thank you so much for sharing; I really appreciate that. I
really want to ask you some follow up questions, but I have a hard time,
honestly, thinking of those questions on my feet. So can I get back to you
with some questions I want to learn more about?” Or instead of saying
that, you could just sort of think out loud, like, “Wow, that's a really
interesting story. I'm really intrigued by that. I'm a little nervous and I
don't know what to say next. But I just was so amazed by what you said,
and how you described X, Y and Z. And that really surprised me. It seems
very unusual for that kind of situation, for you to do what you did.”

So the responses can be in two categories, essentially. One is: what did
they say that prompted some kind of atypical reaction in you? So a
reporting of your emotional response to what they said is one type or
category of response. And the other category of response is a question
about something they've said. I would say that the people who are very
good at active listening (rather than passive listening) are thinking about
what the person is saying as they are saying it. They're not thinking about
what to say next necessarily -- that's different -- but they are thinking
about what the person is saying, like, "Oh wow, you flew around the
world in 15 days? Wow, is that even possible?" That's my emotional
reaction; I'm intrigued. I'm surprised. That is how I'm responding
emotionally. “How do you get around the world in 15 days? What modes
of transportation do you take? How does that actually work mechanically?
Aren't you tired?” -- like a lot of very practical things. So those are the
kinds of things I tend to think about when I'm listening. I'm listening to
my own reaction emotionally. Again, it's one kind of response, and the
other is being curious, like, “How did that happen?” And if you need a
process, useful questions to ask are who, what, where, when, why, how.

22:00 It's a bit mechanical, so I wouldn't recommend it, but if you're just with
them and you notice something and you're just genuinely curious, that's
where I get my questions from. I hope that helps. It is hard to do. If you
listen passively without judgment and you're not actually considering what
they say, it is hard to have a conversation in real time. So I would try to

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

work towards having at least some thought about their words in real time.
And then the comments and questions can come from them.

The next question is: “How to increase listening skills? Any good practice
exercises?” Talk; talk to people and have them talk to you. I'm trying to
think if there’s a good exercise. There is one actually, now that I think
about it. I did this exercise back at Stanford many years ago when I was
taking a class on how to be a suicide prevention counselor. I needed a
class that was pass/fail with one unit to graduate, and I took that one
because I thought it'd be easy. The exercise is very simple. You basically
have a partner -- friend, family member, it doesn't matter, just someone
that willing to engage in the exercise -- and you have a mutual agreement
that if one person or the other says something that's judgmental, then we'll
clap our hands.

So the way the exercise works the way I learned it was that one person
was supposed to pretend to be on the verge of suicide. And that suicide
counselor in training was supposed to say things to engage in conversation
that was connecting but not judgmental -- because if you were judgmental,
then the person who was considering suicide might actually follow
through and do it. So it was very important to not say anything
judgmental. The exercise was actually a bit different than I explained
initially.

23:59 It was the person who was “potentially suicidal” that would be the arbiter
and decider of whether the suicide counselor's comments were judgmental
or not. So if I, as the counselor in training, said something judgmental, the
person who was on the verge of suicide would clap their hands, if
something I said was judgmental. So for lack of a better word, let’s call it
“the patient,” if you would, in this exercise. If the patient says something,
and I (as the counselor in training) say something judgmental, the patient
is the only one who claps their hands. So it's a one-way exercise, not a
two-way, which I explained incorrectly initially. So in this case, it might
be a spouse, and you agree on this exercise. You might say, "Honey, I'm
going to work on my non-judgmental listening skills. What I want to do is
every day, when you come home from work, I want to ask you about your
day. And if I say something judgmental, I'd like you to clap your hands”.
So your spouse comes home and says, "I had a terrible day at work, my
boss was late 15 minutes to our meeting."

“Oh, how inconsiderate. What a jerk.” [Clap.] That's judgmental. You're

providing a commentary on the information and the facts you've received.
A non-judgmental response would be: “How did you feel about that?”
That would be non-judgmental. That's one way you can practice that, if
you're practicing being non-judgmental. If you're practicing your skill
around emotionally acknowledging other people's emotional feelings, you

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could have the exact same conversation with your spouse and say, "I'm
going to work on acknowledging your feelings more. And so this time, the
clap is a positive signal that I've done something proper. And so anytime
you feel like I'm hearing your feelings and acknowledging them, I would
like you to clap.” So: “I had a tough day at work. My boss was late by 15
minutes, and I was super frustrated by that.” And then you say, “Oh, it
sounds like and I can see you're frustrated.” [Clap.] That's an
acknowledgment. Or if you're extrapolating from body language, you
might say, “Oh, honey, you seem really irritated by that.” [Clap.]

26:00 That's another acknowledgement of how you're receiving their feelings. So

those are ways to do that, if you have a practice partner. It works better
with somebody who's in your life pretty regularly. It can be one-way or it
can be two-way. You just pick one element of what we talked about in
class that you want to work on, and just practice having that in everyday
conversations. That's a very useful tool to build up on those skills.
Separate from that, having lots of conversations with other people, and
being very conscious of which skill you're trying to work on helps. So for
me, if I have difficulty asking curiosity-based questions (one or two
people inferred that might be a challenge), I'm going to go to a social
function and just practice working on curiosity-based questions. If I have
difficulty noticing other people as people, rather than sort of in the
background, I'm going to make a conscious effort. Like when I go to
Starbucks, I'm going to say “hi” to the person and make some comment
about what they say, their demeanor, their energy, or maybe anything
unusual they're wearing that day.

So they say “hi,” I say I want to order my latte, and maybe add, “Wow,
you seem awfully cheery for five o'clock in the morning.” And that's an
observation -- making an observation of somebody else, and reflecting it
back. And I did that the other day. I was at the airport at 4 A.M., and the
bus driver was very cheerful. I said, "You are by far the most cheerful
person I've met at 4 A.M." And that was an honest observation and we
kind of laughed; we had this moment for a second there. So that's another
way to practice. Just pick one element, and again, these skills are
universal. They're daily in your personal life and daily in your professional
life. So pick one element and decide to work on that for a week, and you'll
find you'll get better. Overall, I would say if you're not very extroverted --
and I'm maybe in between at this point in my life. Earlier in life, I was
very introverted, but I'm probably now an ambivert, which is what they
call it between the two. I like being on my own, and having quiet time.
So sometimes I will make the effort to go to more social functions. If I
was to work on this as a skill set, I would go and be more social, and just
work on particular aspects I wanted to improve.

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28:07 The next question is: “Isn't being judgmental good when you are
evaluating/ dating/ meeting someone for the first time?” No, it's not.
There's a distinction. Being judgmental to them is one element of
judgment, and the other is judgment in the sense of assessing whether you
want to give them a job offer, or want a second date -- that kind of thing.
Those are two very different kinds of judgment. I would call the first
judgment more emotional judgment; the second more of -- I like the word
“evaluating,” which is what this person used in their question. There's
almost never any time where it's beneficial to be judgmental verbally,
because being judgmental verbally is a form of aggression.

It’s saying your words don't matter, or they're not as significant as mine.
There's a book called Non-Violent Communication, and we'll add that to
the reading list as well. That is about listening without judgment and
making comments that are neutral. That's a skill set. It’s a book on
communication skills, and I've assumed it’s more on marriage just because
I could see it applying a lot to marriages, but it's also very applicable for
work. When you are judgmental, the other person stops talking. So you
have to ask yourself: under what circumstances is it beneficial for the
other person to stop talking? Being judgmental also damages the
relationship.

If you're judgmental, and it damages the relationship, that's not good. So if

you are on a date, and the other person smells bad, you can evaluate that:
“That doesn't really work well for me for a second date.” You do that to
yourself internally after the date, but you probably don't want to say, "You
really stink. Like not psychologically, you actually just smell really bad."
That's being judgmental, and it would be considered socially very
aggressive.

30:04 So that's a distinction. It's useful to be evaluating offline, or in your own

mind, or separately afterwards, but being judgmental in your demeanor is
not beneficial. Even if you don't care about that particular person or
relationship, particularly in an organization, word gets around that you're
kind of mean. Being judgmental in your words comes across as being
mean. That biases people in a negative way towards interacting with you.
And it creates a negative bias to wanting to share information with you, if
they perceive you and if you have a reputation as being mean and
judgmental. So that's a reason why you don't want to do that.

The next question/comment is: “Trust is more important than competence.

Any good books to read on that topic?” I'd like to think about that more.
There's a book called The Trusted Advisor, and we’ll add that to the
reading list as well. That's about being in a trusted advisor relationship,
either formally like a consultant, or perhaps internally. In terms of trust, I
don't think trust is more important than competence. I think they're related.

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I'm trying to think of someone who's incompetent that I trust. It's hard,
because if someone is to follow through on their agreements, they have to
be competent and skilled enough to be able to follow through. So there's a
degree of competence needed for trust. If someone is to be trustworthy
with their words and accurately represent facts, they have to have enough
competence and knowledge in order to be accurate in their words.

So I think there's some degree of that. I think maybe the question is

referring to maybe consultants. If everyone's reasonably competent, the
client might be heavily biased towards picking the consultant they trust
more. That I would agree with. So I would say, once you have sufficient
competence, trust matters more than competence -- over and above the
minimum level is probably a better way to phrase it.

31:55 The next question is: “We learned many facial expressions. To build on
top of that, what are the key verbal expressions to understand other
people's feelings or their real intention?” It's interesting, with verbal
expressions, it's not usually the words they say. It's usually how it is said.
So it's the tone of voice that’s a lot of it. As a great example, you see this
in romantic comedies a lot is, and it's very stereotypical. I'm not fond of
the stereotype, but since it's so common and people see it a lot, I'll
reference it to teach this point. Stereotypically, with a married husband
and wife, the husband comes home from work, the wife has also come
home from work, and they meet. And the husband says something like,
"Honey, I'm going to go out with the guys tonight. I’m going to cancel our
plans for a date tonight and go out with the guys." “Fine.” So there's a
difference between how “fine” is said, right? There's “fine,” as in, “no
problem,” or “Fine,” which is definitely not fine.

It's interesting; it's subtext versus text. “Text,” in screenwriting, is the

words the actors and actresses are supposed to say out loud. “Subtext” is
what the actor or actress is supposed to mean, regardless of what word is
actually said. So usually emotional information is not conveyed
necessarily all that well with text -- the literal words. It's more often the
subtext -- what is not said verbally. This is why if you have a face-to-face
meeting with somebody, versus a phone call with that person, versus a
transcript of a phone call with that person (when you see his or her
answer, it's only in the written transcription form), you get a completely
different experience across all three. In person, you see nonverbal cues.
You see body language, you see all the visual cues and you hear the audio
cues. And then you hear the actual words that they say. On the phone, you
miss all the visual cues – it’s only auditory cues.

34:00 And then when you read the transcript, or you have a text conversation
with somebody, where you're only texting (which is terrible for anything
emotionally sensitive, by the way), you miss all the cues. You only see the

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word, and it's not always accurate. If it's asking for directions -- that’s low
emotional intensity, no problem, text is great for that. If it's an emotionally
sensitive topic, where it's very subject to being misconstrued, and hearing
the voice intonations and seeing the face and facial expressions conveys a
lot, you don't want to do it on text. It's either in person or by phone. So in
terms of the question about what verbal expressions to understand, the key
to that really is listening to how it is said. And that's challenging to teach,
particularly for online, because it’s not very visual obviously. But pauses
are a big one, and “filler words,” like “huh” and “mm-ph” are also telling.
(“You want to go out with your buddies? Mm-ph. Fine.”)

Notice when there's a longer pause there, or there's a filler word of “mm-
ph.” (I'm not sure what you call that -- it's not an actual word, it's more of
a phonetic sound that conveys some kind of meaning.) You might hear a
long pause, and then the literal word “fine.” As you watch films, as you
have more social interactions, as you do “checking in” a lot with people
you know and meet, you will start to notice and recognize which sounds
refer to which emotion. And that will vary by person. So, it matters a lot
whether you know the person or not. That makes a big difference. But the
universal ones I shared with you are just the awkward pause that was
unexpected, and the phonetic sounds like “mm-ph.” “Uhhh, no, not really.
I don't want to do that.” Those are auditory but non-verbal. So those are
often much more indicative of the emotion than the actual literal word.
Practice helps with a lot of that. A few things are a bit more universal, but
a lot of them are very person-specific.

36:03 Our next question is going back to an earlier question that's been clarified
on listening without judgment: “Here, listening without judgment means
not to come to a conclusion. What does ‘without judgment’ mean?” Okay,
so when I say, “listening without judgment,” I am not saying to listen to
somebody and don't draw any conclusions around what they are saying.
What I am saying is: don't judge them, their emotions and feelings, and
what they say. So if someone says, “I'm really upset that we're really late
in the start of this project,” you don't argue with the feeling (“Oh, you
shouldn't feel bad, it's incorrect. You shouldn't feel bad that we're late. It's
common that these things are late.”) That's very invalidating. You're
judging the emotional expression, and you don't want to do that.

So when someone expresses or conveys emotion, it's a very important

thing: all emotions are valid (but they may not necessarily be
logically correct). And that last part is in sort of mental parentheses. So if
they are upset, it's never invalid to be upset. It may not be justified
logically, but again, we're not talking about logic; we're talking about
emotion. So when someone's emotionally upset, you don't judge the
emotion, you simply acknowledge it. “Wow, you seem really upset.” “I
am.” “I could tell, what's going on?” Whereas someone comes in and says

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they're upset about whatever it is, and you say, “It's irrational, you
shouldn't be upset. Why are you upset? That doesn't make any sense at
all.” There, you're invalidating the emotional expression. You're saying
that their feelings are invalid, and that shuts them down. So that's what I
mean by listening without judgment: listening without judging their
feelings and the validity of their feelings. All feelings are valid. What they
do about it may or may not be justified, certainly.

38:02 Whether the feeling is logically justified may or may not be the case, but
it's irrelevant, because the feeling itself is valid. And once the feeling is
acknowledged, you can often then shift to having purely a functional,
logical conversation. But when someone has a very heightened sense of
emotion around something and it's not acknowledged, they're going to
object to the functional conversation, mostly as a way of getting their
feelings acknowledged in some kind of indirect way. So that's why you
have people making very illogical arguments very passionately -- you see
that a lot. It's because it's really not about the logic. It's about the feeling
they have, and they want that feeling to be acknowledged, and they don't
always know how to do that in their communications, so it'll bleed in to
the functional conversation, and it'll just seem very odd if you're looking at
it purely from a logical standpoint. But again, you can never win an
emotional argument with logic. That's essentially the gist of what I just
talked about.

The next question is: “In managing a relationship with a highly emotional
family member, how can I help her to grasp the importance of self-
regulation and self-awareness to improve the quality of our
communication?” That is a tough one because self-regulation is not
something you can impose on somebody. The kind of work one needs to
do to get better at that is really very personal. It's very intimate in the
sense that it is something that only they can choose to do for themselves.
So the best you can do is really let them know the impact their lack of self-
regulation and their lack of self-awareness is having on you. But then if
they're going to do anything about it, it's really up to them. So given the
feedback, it's hard. It's hard because I have family members that are like
that, and it's hard to be that honest. And then you can ask if they're open to
a suggestion. Say, "If you're interested in learning more about self-
awareness and self-regulation, I might have some suggestions, but only if
you're interested.”

40:03 “Otherwise, it's none of my business. But when you yell at me like that, it
hurts my feelings. I don't like it. I feel dismissed. And I, frankly, feel a
little scared, and I don't really want to be around you when you do that. So
that's the impact it's having on me. I just wanted to let you know that.
Would you be willing to not do that around me?” And so that would be a
request, and they may or may not agree to the request. And by the way, on

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that one, if they don't agree to the request and it's really miserable to be
around them, you can just decide to remove yourself from the situation
too. So that's more of a boundary, and that's something we talked about in
this class.

Next question: “How do you handle low EQ people when they give
unsolicited feedback, and the company encourages giving such feedback
outside direct areas of responsibility?” So that's a culture and values
compatibility issue. So for example, if someone gives unsolicited
feedback, and it's encouraged in the company because the company
culture and the company rules say, “We should tell everyone how to do
their job, even if it's not our area of responsibility,” then if you don't like
that, you either have two choices. Deal with it and sort of tolerate it, or
change companies to a culture that's more compatible with you. So for
example, for me, some company culture will say, "When you're upset at
a direct report, it's perfectly fine to humiliate them and yell at them in
front of everyone else. It's okay, because we pay you so well. You’ve got
to take it. And guess what? All of us got it when we were younger in the
same company. So it's part of the rite of passage.“

That value system may work for some, but it doesn't work for me. That
culture does not work for me, and I would not work there. So you have to
decide whether those shared values in the company, and the values and the
culture of the entire organization are compatible with you. If not, life will
be very emotionally draining for you in that situation. Now, if the other
person specifically gives unsolicited feedback, you can make a request.

42:02 You can say, "I hear the information you're giving me about finance,
which is my area. But I'm going to request that you not do that in the
future. I don't give you unsolicited feedback around how you do your
engineering work. I would prefer not to receive any about my finance
work unless I ask. And I would ask you to respect that.” So you can make
a request and ask them if that's okay. And that's basically the whole
request process, and whether they agree or not. If they agree, you can hold
them to it. Or you can draw a boundary. A boundary really is: it's not
an agreement, because you're not asking for their input, but you are
notifying them what you will do and what works for you in more of a
unilateral way. So you would say, " I don't appreciate being told how to do
my job. I don't tell you how to do yours, and I'm going to ask that you not
give me unsolicited advice that I don't ask for regarding my department.
And if you do, honestly, I'm just going to end the conversation pretty
abruptly going forward. But I wanted to let you know in advance that I
will do that. So I will say to you, ‘thank you for your input, but I'm not
going to participate in this conversation.’ And I'm going to walk away.
That feels a little rude to me, but I don't know what else to do. I do not

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want to participate in being told how to do my job from someone who

doesn't have functional experience in the same area.”

So that's a little bit more aggressive. I probably would tone it down a little
bit in real life, but just to give you the idea. You can either ask and get an
agreement, or you can be more one-way. If it's one-way though, you can't
force them to do something, like, “I'm going to force you to shut up, I'm
just letting you know.” You can't do that. What you can do in a one-
way boundary, you're making a rule, not to govern their behavior, but to
govern your own behavior. In those conversations, I'm just going to say
“thank you, but no thank you” and walk away. That's allowed because
that's fully in your control. You can't muzzle them in a sort of a unilateral
agreement.

43:55 Our next question is: “When does the productive conflict resolution
process not work? For example, maybe if there is a larger power
differential between the parties.” The process works very well, even when
there is a power differential between the parties. The process does not
work when there is not goodwill and good intention on the part of all
parties. The process does not work when one person really wants to
dominate the other person -- not “dominate,” in the sense of “I have more
power,” but does not want the other person to win. If the other person has
a win/ lose mentality, this process doesn't work well. If the other person
wants a mutually beneficial relationship, the process works really well.

When one person does not want a mutually beneficial relationship and
only wants a one-way relationship, I would say the process works well in
the sense that you won't come to an agreement -- in my mind, that's okay.
So it does not give you an agreement when it's one-sided, and I don't think
of that as not working. I think of that as probably a benefit of the process,
but some might interpret a lack of agreement as a failure in the process.
The process works well to get mutual agreement. It does not work well if
you're trying to force someone else to agree to something they don't want
to do.

Next question: “Following up on one of the previous

questions around virtual leadership, there are times when I got really angry
because the task was important and I almost shouted at the person
handling the task. How should I handle myself in these situations and at
the same time, communicate my feelings and concerns to the other
person?” So this question actually covers the entire class. There is a self-
awareness process where it sounds like the person asking the question
recognized that he or she was feeling angry because the
task was important. There was an instinctive impulse to yell and shout at
the person who was really late. If I read the question correctly, it sounds

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like there was some self-regulation of recognizing, “If I yelled at a co-

worker, that's not going to be good for anybody.”

46:02 And this person seems like they restrained themselves from doing that,
which is good. And now the issue is: “Okay, what's the ideal way to
handle that?” Anger means that something is not working for you. So you
need to recognize the anger, because it's just fine – “Hey, this behavior
does not work for me, it's problematic.” You don't want to yell because
now that risks damaging the relationship and your reputation. So, the first
two steps are good. You recognize the emotion, you get the information,
you regulate so you don't damage the relationship. And now you get into
the emotionally aware relationship skills, specifically around the feedback
and making a request.

So you can have a request to say, "I would like to speak to you about XYZ
project, but there were some problems that were caused when the project
wasn't done on time. Would you be willing to have a conversation with me
about that?" And then that gives an invitation to have the conversation. I'm
trying to think of a script that you would use in a professional setting
versus personal. So in a personal setting, I would say," When you were
late, I was really upset about that. I was really angry about that, because
my project was late. And honestly, my career took a hit because I relied
on you, and I'm angry about that. And I would like to request if you'd be
willing to be on time next time to avoid my career suffering because of
that. Is that something you'd be willing to do?" And so that basically
becomes the request.

And then there's the entire request process. They may share their feelings.
They may say no, they may offer additional information, like maybe your
deadlines are too aggressive and they just want to say yes to please you,
but they actually need more time. Maybe they need to negotiate you have
more time for the deadlines, and then they'd be willing to hit the deadlines
that involve more time. I don't know, but it invites the dialogue.

48:00 Whether you want to use the words “I feel upset or angry about that,”
depends on the corporate culture; some would be okay with that. I would
say, though, “it caused a problem for me when you were late. My career
and reputation took a hit. And I would prefer that not to happen. Would
you be willing to be on time going forward?” Or “can we talk about being
on time going forward?” and “are there certain challenges and difficulties
involved? Is there something I'm doing that makes it difficult to be on
time?”

“What do you need to be on time?” “Can we work on this issue together?”

– which is kind of an invitation. So this is, again, where the EQ skills
come into play -- their EQ skills. If their EQ skills are high, you can say,

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"I'm late. Your project is late, which makes my project late. Can you stop
that?" and they can go figure out what they need to do that. If their EQ
skills are very low, and for example, they don't want to tell you the truth,
or they're afraid or they're not aware that they're feeling frustrated by the
process and they don't share information with you, then you have to ask
more questions to lead the conversation to figure out what's going on.

Because maybe there's a practical reason they're always late. Maybe your
deadlines are way too aggressive, and they're afraid to tell you. Maybe
they're intimidated by you. Who knows? So starting the conversation,
leading it, not assuming they're wrong just say, "Hey, there's an issue I'd
like to prevent because it's causing me a problem. I just want to make sure
that I don't suffer a reputation hit and you don't either when our work
together isn't in sync. Help me understand what is difficult about making
the deadlines on time. Is it unclear? Am I doing something wrong? Is it
too aggressive? Help me understand the situation better. And would you
be willing to work with me to find some way that meets your needs and
meets mine? My need is for things to be predictable and on time. I'd like
to understand your needs, and what you need, in terms of working
together. And I'd like to find some kind of solution that would work for
both of us, where you get what you need and the project work is
predictable for me and my scheduling. Can we talk about that?”
Something along those lines is something that I would say.

50:07 The next question is: “How do I know if I am emotionally intelligent

enough to succeed (technical work abilities aside) as a management
consultant? Let’s see, how do I know if I'm emotionally intelligent enough
to succeed as a management consultant? My first reaction is: that's a tough
one. I would probably ask people who are already successful as
management consultants that know you. And say, "Can you give me some
feedback on my EQ and people skills? How do I stack up? Am I at the
“good enough” level, or am I short? How do I compare to other people at
my tenure level, in terms of our abilities? Are my people skills a strength,
a weakness, or just competent enough not to get in the way?" Those would
be great questions to ask

If you know a client that you have a good relationship with, and who will
give you good feedback, and it's more of a personal relationship, you can
ask them, "I'm just curious, from a people skills standpoint, how am I
doing with everyone else in the client company? Have I offended anyone?
Do you perceive that I’m having functional relationships with everyone?
Are there any complaints I haven't heard about? I just want to make sure
that my working relationships with everyone are really good. " So you can
do that. You can ask your clients individually, or specific coworkers, and
say, "I really want to work on my people skills, and I've been trying to
invest a lot in making our relationship really productive. I'm just curious,

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how do I stack up against other people you've worked with, in terms of

people skills? What do I need to do differently to get better at it? What
would you like? How can I change to make this relationship more
beneficial to you?" It works in family relationships and marriage
relationships: “Hey, honey, I want this marriage to really work. I want you
to be really happy. What can I do in our interactions? What can I do, in
terms of my behaviors, that would make this marriage better for you?”

51:59 I do it with my kids. I say, "Hey kids, I really want to be a good dad and
an effective dad, and part of that is making sure that our relationship is
enjoyable and satisfying and fair for you. Is there anything daddy can do
differently that would make our relationship better? What do you think?"
So the short answer is: ask. And the harder question is whom to ask. Ask
many different people, and this is the whole feedback request again. How
do you know? You've got to ask people who interact with you. They're
the best ones to know, and for management consulting, it's really other
consultants that are more senior to you that you respect that they
themselves have good skills. Don't ask a partner with poor people skills
how you're doing. It's not useful feedback. But if someone is universally
very admired and respected internally and with clients, that's a great
person to ask, especially if they know your work.

Here’s the next question: “If you had to know in only five minutes, what
are the markers that you find as signs of high EQ in another person?” I
like this question. Let's see, my answer is that I don't think I need five
minutes, to be perfectly honest. It’s 30 to 60 seconds. In 30 to 60 seconds,
I know. I'm trying to think of why I know though, because there are a lot
of things I'm observing situationally. I'm just trying to picture an
interaction, and I’ll go through the list. I’m thinking of a specific person
who shall remain nameless. 1) If they make eye contact or not, because
eye contact is a sign of engagement, with me in this particular example.
And lack of eye contact is often a sign of discomfort with self -- a lack of
self-acceptance, which is more the self-awareness type issues. 2) Whether
they're actually paying attention to me when I talk, or are they kind of
mentally zoned out, looking at their phone or looking away, and not
making eye contact.

53:58 3) If they make a comment, does it fit in the flow of the conversation
already in progress? 4) If they ask a question, is it socially appropriate?
When I was a teenager, I went to my father's college reunion, and some
kid next to me who was like 9 asked me for my GPA and SAT scores. I'm
like, "Dude, we just met. You're nine years old. That information is
personal. I'm not going to tell you." Maybe I was a little older, he knew I
had gone to Stanford, and I'm like, “that's not appropriate to the
conversation.” So that's an example of poor social calibration -- this nine-
year-old. He's nine, so not an adult obviously, and still learning.

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He didn't really realize what things are socially acceptable or not. And so
that's a sign -- if someone asks something sort of socially awkward or
inappropriate, or if they ask questions that are discontinuous or leap from
the existing conversation without making some kind of acknowledgement.
If you want to change the subject, it’s useful to say, "Oh, that reminds me
of something completely different. If you're interested, I'd love to share a
story about how I had an exciting weekend too." "Oh, I'd love to hear
about that. Let me just finish my story first," and that would be a
conversation. Let me think what else? 5) The way people phrase their
comments -- the big one is the judgmental-ness.

If someone is very judgmental in how they comment about other people,

and so they say something judgmental about somebody else to me when
that person isn't there, then I know at some point they're going to say
something that's judgmental of me to somebody else. So very judgy
people in their language tend to be judgy in their personalities, which is a
form of low EQ, because it's very aggressive.

56:00 A judgment implies “better than/ less than,” like “I'm the judger, so I'm
better than you, the judgee” and so it's correlated with a lot of other lower
EQ type skills. Those are probably my five big ones that are often
knowable in the first minute or so.

Here is our final question here for today: “Victor, I fully understand your
four modules. But how can we turn these four modules into daily actions
that we can practice every day? As you said, knowing what to do is very
far away from being able to do it, just as in case interviews.” That is very
true. So one of the things we are preparing is a list of exercises and tasks
that were scattered throughout our four modules. There'll be a several-
page checklist-like PDF, grouped by skill area.

These are all things that you can do, either particular procedures or
particular training exercises, or some combination of those. When that
becomes available, what I would suggest is to take that list out, now that
you've gone through the entire course, and just circle the ones that jump
out to you as the ones you really want to work on now. And which ones
make the most sense depends on the person and the specific situation. If
your emotional awareness and regulation skills are maybe not perfect but
reasonable, and you want to work on social awareness or the emotionally
aware relationship skills, then you might work on tasks in the latter two
modules. If throughout this course, you're realizing “Gosh, some of this
advanced emotional awareness stuff -- I'm not seeing it; I just don't notice
that,” then you might want to work on the social awareness. If all of it
seems very foreign to you, then I'd probably start with more of the
exercises around self-awareness.

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58:04 I'm going to compile all the different suggestions of exercises and specific
habits that are associated with high EQ, and there'll be a single list. Just
circle the ones you want to work on. And I would probably pick one, and
work on it for one to two weeks, depending on how much social
interaction you have with other people. That would be a good way to
practice -- just one skill a week, or one skill every two weeks, and build
from there. If you just do that and be very deliberate about it, most of
these things don't take a lot of extra time. They take a little bit of
conscious intention, but not a lot of extra time, because most of us are
interacting with other people constantly anyway – coworkers, family
members, spouses, cashiers, waiters, waitresses. We live in a social world,
so those are lots of opportunities to practice, and I would just pick one and
practice it. With one a week, you're going to cover 50 in a year. If it's one
every two weeks, you're going to cover 25 -- that's ample. Even if you do
one a month, which should be fine as well, particularly if you want to get
much better at it -- one a month for a year will give you 12 new skills you
didn't have before, for not a lot of extra time.

So that's my suggestion: to use those particular exercises and habit

descriptions and just pick one, practice it. And then when you get that,
then work on another one that seems to be getting in the way or slowing
you down, in terms of either your personal or your professional life. So
that's it for our questions for today. I want to thank everyone for joining
me, on our session today, as well as the prior three sessions. And I've
enjoyed teaching this class. It brings up lots of interesting thoughts and
memories of my own, and my own progression in all this. And I would
just end by saying it's an important life skill. It's probably honestly, by far,
with no exceptions, the most important skill that I've developed myself.
And it's the most important skill that I teach. It is far more important than
literally everything else.

1:00:02 I learned this the hard way by doing almost all of it wrong, which is why
it's been an interesting experience for me emotionally to create the class.
And when I look back on my life, had I had the emotional intelligence
skill level I have today when I was 20 (and I've said this before publicly in
other places), I would have given up my entire McKinsey career and
everything that followed it. It makes that much of a difference. It's a
profound game changer, in terms of the quality of life and the quality of
career too. Those two are interrelated, obviously.

It's just that important. So I want to acknowledge, first of all, those of you
who've joined in on the class. It is a vital, important topic, but it's not
always adopted by a lot of people who need it or who want it. And it takes
a certain level of self-awareness to want to work on this stuff. So I think

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EQ Development - Module 4 - Q&A - Transcript

it's amazing that it's something you notice, want to improve on, and have
made the effort and commitment to do it.

I get the sense that that effort will continue well beyond this class, as it
should appropriately. And that alone is a big signal of if not high EQ,
higher or increasing EQ -- the desire to improve in these topics that are
more personal and sensitive, and of a more personal nature. I wish more
people would do it, honestly, but it's very few who do. And I want to
acknowledge all of you who are in that few, that minority, that are willing
to work on it. And acknowledge yourselves for that.

So on that note, I will wrap up our session and our class today. Thank you
so much for joining. I very much appreciate your attention and devotion to
the topic -- something very near and dear to my heart. Thank you for
paying attention. I appreciate you. Thanks, everyone, have a great day or
evening, wherever you may be today. Thank you.

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