Smith

RIDENHOUR, ET AL v.
CAREER TRAINING SPECIALISTS, ET AL November 17, 2023
Page 1
STATE OF CONNECTICUT: SUPERIOR COURT.
JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF WATERBURY
AT WATERBURY
---------------------------x
TERENCIA RIDENHOUR, :
DANIDSHA AYALA, CAROLINA :
CARRION, SHAKIMA N. GLOVER,:
DIANE LUKOWSKI, AMY OTIS, :
KRISTIE RICKER and WENDY :
SERRANO, individually and :
on behalf of all others :
similarly situated, :
:
Plaintiffs, :
:
-versus- :DOCKET NO.
:UWY-CV23-6070643-S
CAREER TRAINING :
SPECIALISTS, LLC d/b/a :
STONE ACADEMY, MARK :
SCHEINBERG, JOSEPH :
BIERBAUM, GARY EVANS, and :
RICHARD SCHEINBERG in his :
capacity as Trustee for :
CREATIVE CAREER TRUST, :
:
Defendants :
---------------------------x
Deposition of HELEN SMITH, taken pursuant to

Sections 13-26 et seq. and 13-27(h) of the
Connecticut Practice Book, held at THE OFFICE OF
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, 165 Capitol Avenue,
Hartford, Connecticut, before Julia Flynn Cashman,
RPR, CSR 250 and Notary Public in and for the
State of Connecticut, on November 17, 2023, at
9:00 a.m.
Sanders, Gale & Russell

(203) 624-4157
Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

RIDENHOUR, ET AL v. CAREER TRAINING SPECIALISTS, ET AL November 17, 2023
Page 2
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS:
4 HURWITZ SAGARIN SLOSSBERG
& KNUFF LLC
5 147 North Broad Street
Milford, Connecticut 06460
6 BY: DAVID A. SLOSSBERG, ESQUIRE
Dslossberg@hssklaw.com
7
8
ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANTS
9 CAREER TRAINING SPECIALISTS LLC
d/b/a STONE ACADEMY:
10
COWDERY MURPHY DENNEHY & HEALY LLC
11 280 Trumbull Street, 22nd Floor
Hartford, Connecticut 06103
12 BY: JAMES J. HEALY, ESQUIRE
Jhealy@cmdhlaw.com
13
14
ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT
15 MARK SCHEINBERG:
16 HASSETT & GEORGE, PC
945 Hopmeadow Street
17 Simsbury, Connecticut 06070
BY: JEFFREY O. McDONALD, ESQUIRE
18 Jmcdonald@hgesq.com
19
20
ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANTS
21 RICHARD SCHEINBERG, Trustee
for CREATIVE CAREER TRUST:
22
IZARD KINDALL & RAABE LLP
23 29 South Main Street, Suite 305
West Hartford, Connecticut 06107
24 BY: SETH KLEIN, ESQUIRE
Sklein@ikrlaw.com
25

(203) 624-4157

Page 3
1 A L S O P R E S E N T:
2
ATTORNEYS FOR
3 THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT:
4 OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
165 Capitol Avenue
5 Hartford, Connecticut 06106
BY: SHAWN RUTCHICK, ESQUIRE
6 Assistant Attoreny General
Shawn.rutchick@ct.gov
7
JOSEPH GASSER, ESQUIRE
8 Assistant Attorney General
Joseph.Gasser@ct.gov
9
ALINA BRICKLIN-GOLDSTEIN, ESQUIRE
10 Assistant Attorney General
Alina.bricklin-goldstein@ct.gov
11
ALEXANDRA QUENTAL
12 Intern, Office of Attorney General
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 S T I P U L A T I O N S
2
3 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between
4 counsel for the respective parties hereto that all
5 technicalities as to proof of the official
6 character before whom the deposition is to be
7 taken are waived.
8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between
9 counsel for the respective parties hereto that the
10 reading and signing of the deposition by the
11 deponent are not waived.
12 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between
13 counsel for the respective parties hereto that all
14 objections, except as to form, are reserved to the
15 time of trial.
16
17 * * * * *
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 1 FOR
2 IDENTIFICATION Received and Marked.)
3 HELEN SMITH,
4 410 Capitol Avenue, Hartford, Connecticut 06134,
5 having been first duly sworn by Julia Flynn
6 Cashman, a Notary Public in and for the State of
7 Connecticut, testified on her oath as follows:
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. SLOSSBERG:
10 Q. Good morning, Ms. Smith. My name is David
11 Slossberg. I'm with the law firm of Hurwitz
12 Sagarin Slossberg & Knuff. And we're here -- do
13 you understand that we're here to take your
14 testimony as a designated representative of the
15 Department of Public Health.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you been deposed before?
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. So I'm sure your counsel went
20 over this with you, but let me just tell you about
21 today.
22 I'm going to be asking questions and the
23 court reporter is going to be taking down my
24 questions and your answers. So it's important
25 that you -- even if you know where I'm going, that

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1 you allow me to finish my question so that you can
2 answer, and then I'll allow you to finish your
3 answer before I ask the next question. Fair
4 enough?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It's also important that you speak audibly.
7 "Uh-huhs," shrugs of the shoulder, don't show up
8 on the transcript. So I'd ask you to do that. Do
9 you understand that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And with regard to my questions, I may not
12 ask perfect questions all the time. If you don't
13 understand something, please let me know.
14 Otherwise, if you answer a question, we're going
15 to assume that you understood it. Fair enough?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it's not a marathon. You know, if you
18 need a break, just ask me. The only thing that I
19 would ask is that if I have a pending question,
20 you answer it before we take a break, okay?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So can you just tell me your educational
23 background briefly?
24 A. I have a diploma in Nursing. I have a
25 Bachelor's degree in Nursing and I have a Master's

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1 degree in Nursing.
2 Q. Nursing is a broad topic. Can you tell me
3 first, when you refer to Nursing, what kind of
4 nursing, as a RN?
5 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, as a registered nurse.
6 Q. And where did you get your BA? Or BS or BA.
7 A. It would be a BSN, Bachelor of Science in
8 Nursing, Central Connecticut State University.
9 Q. What year?
10 A. 2001.
11 Q. And then where did you get your Master's?
12 A. Master of Science in Nursing, University of
13 Hartford, 2004.
14 Q. What did you do for work after 2004?
15 A. I worked with the Department of Public
16 Health.
17 Q. Prior to that, did you -- what is your work
18 history?
19 A. So from 1986 to present, I have worked as a
20 registered nurse in healthcare facilities.
21 Q. So I don't need to know -- can you just give
22 me a general, hospital setting, where did you
23 work?
24 A. Hospital settings, so acute care hospitals,
25 chronic disease hospitals, long term care

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1 facility, assisted healthcare facilities; so
2 assisted health facilities.
3 Q. Any specialty areas?
4 A. Pulmonary.
5 Q. And so from 1986 until when did you work as
6 a practitioner?
7 A. 2000 -- 2000 -- wait -- and 4.
8 Q. And then what did do you after 2004?
9 A. From January of 2004 to June of 2014, I
10 worked as a nurse consultant for the Department of
11 Public Health in the Facility Licensing and
12 Investigation Section.
13 Q. So can you describe for me your job
14 responsibilities in that position?
15 A. I, as a nurse consultant for FLIS, or
16 Facility Licensing and Investigation Section, I
17 would complete routine and focused surveys as
18 either part of an interdisciplinary team, or by
19 myself, in licensing healthcare entities in
20 Connecticut.
21 Q. So what is a licensed healthcare entity in
22 Connecticut?
23 A. Long term care facilities, hospitals,
24 ambulatory surgical centers, rest home, assisted
25 living, home health agency.

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1 Q. Did you, in that -- let's just say from the
2 2004 to 2014 time period, did any of your work
3 involve supervision of private nursing
4 institutions, educational institutions?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So what happened in 2014, how did it -- how
7 did your job change?
8 A. In June of 2014, I became a nurse consultant
9 in the Practitioner Licensing and Investigation
10 Section, still for the Department of Public
11 Health.
12 Q. And how is that different from what you were
13 doing before?
14 A. So as a nurse consultant in PLIS, or
15 Practitioner Licensing and Investigation Section,
16 I investigate complaints or referrals regarding
17 the care and services provided by an individual
18 healthcare provider.
19 Q. So what is an individual healthcare
20 provider?
21 A. A licensed healthcare provider could be a
22 physician, a licensed practical nurse, a
23 registered nurse, advanced practice registered
24 nurse, a respiratory therapist, a speech
25 therapist; any type of licensee that we

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1 investigate, PLIS investigates.
2 Q. So let's just set our terms for today. If I
3 refer to the Department of Public Health as DPH,
4 will you know what I'm talking about?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know what the Office of Higher
7 Education is?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is it?
10 A. An office that oversees educational programs
11 in Connecticut.
12 Q. And if I refer to the Office of Higher
13 Education as HOE, will you know what I'm referring
14 to?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is there also -- and I have seen it referred
17 to differently -- the Board of Nursing Examiners,
18 can you tell me what the actual name is? BOEN?
19 A. It's Board of Examiners For Nursing.
20 Q. All right. So if I refer to BOEN or, I
21 don't know, how do you refer to the Board?
22 A. I would say the Board.
23 Q. The Board. Okay. What does the Board,
24 BOEN, what does that Board do?
25 A. According to the Nurse Practice Act, the

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1 Board approves pre-licensure nursing programs,
2 oversees administrative hearings, and creates
3 declaratory rulings or guidelines.
4 Q. So you're here today, and I'm going to show
5 you, I put the Notice in front of you, but before
6 we look at the topics, you're here today, you
7 understand, to talk specifically about Stone
8 Academy, and more generally about what the DPH
9 does in connection with working with OHE to
10 oversee educational institutions. Do you
11 understand that generally?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So tell me what experience you have in
14 connection with those, you know, those functions?
15 A. What specific functions?
16 MR. RUTCHICK: Objection.
17 Q. So I'm really talking about -- so tell me
18 about what your role was with regard to Stone
19 Academy, start with that.
20 A. And what time period are we talking about?
21 Q. 2021 to present.
22 MR. HEALY: And just to be clear, her
23 role individually as opposed to DPH's role.
24 MR. SLOSSBERG: Well, she's here as a
25 designated representative, so I'm going to assume

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Page 12
1 that whatever Ms. Smith did was on behalf of DPH.
2 MR. HEALY: I just want to make sure I
3 understand the scope of the question.
4 MR. SLOSSBERG: Yes.
5 MR. RUTCHICK: And to clarify for the
6 record, you haven't gotten into it yet, and I
7 don't know if you folks understand that, but the
8 BOEN is a separate agency. So you haven't gone
9 through that yet, so just so you know, the
10 questions from DPH's perspective, she's not
11 actually here for the BOEN. You can talk about,
12 because they liaison, what she knows about and how
13 that works a little bit. But the BOEN is legally
14 a separate entity.
15 MR. SLOSSBERG: I understand. I
16 understand. And I'll ask about that.
17 Q. So where was I. I want to know what you did
18 with regard to Stone Academy.
19 A. And, again, just --
20 Q. 2021 to present.
21 A. 2021 --
23 Q. You can answer.
24 A. So the -- could you restate the question, or
25 say the question again?

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1 Q. Yeah, I just want to know what, generally,
2 what you did in connection with Stone Academy from
3 2021 to present?
4 A. So for nursing programs, I collect
5 information from nursing programs on -- for
6 whatever requests they have for the Nursing Board.
7 So from Stone Academy, I would collect any
8 information that they would be presenting or
9 request to the Board of Examiners For Nursing.
10 I do believe that during that time period,
11 you said 2021 to present, Stone Academy had a
12 five-year study, which I collected information
13 from Stone Academy, or information that Stone
14 Academy provided to me, in 2021. Also, during a
15 five-year study, I make a campus visit and I made
16 a campus visit. And I also make visits to the
17 clinical experiences.
18 So I made visits to the clinical
19 experiences. I would also present the five-year
20 study to the Nursing Board for their review.
21 Q. So let's unpackage that a little bit.
22 Five-year study, was that something five years
23 prior to 2021? So I'm trying to get, when you
24 refer to a five-year study, what five years, what
25 period of time?

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1 A. It would be from the present -- from the
2 time of review, five years back. So it's a review
3 of the past five years, to the present time. So
4 in 2021, it would be reviewing back to their last
5 five-year study, so five years prior to that.
6 Q. Is there some guideline or rule that says
7 how frequently studies are done of private
8 educational institutions that provide nursing
9 programs?
10 A. In the regulation -- so nursing programs and
11 the guidelines, which I'm referring to the word
12 "regulations," there is language that talks about
13 that the Board will review, on a certain time
14 period, and make onsite visits appropriate as they
15 deem necessary. But the language "five-year
16 study" is not in that regulation.
17 Q. So is there somewhere at the DPH where the
18 DPH has made a judgment that they're going to do
19 this study on a five-year basis, every five years?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So how do you decide when to do a study?
22 A. As directed by the Board; Board of Examiners
23 For Nursing.
24 Q. The last study that was done, am I correct,
25 for Stone Academy, was in 2021, correct?

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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And how about before that for Stone Academy,
3 do you know?
4 A. I do not know.
5 Q. You said that you also collect information,
6 or you -- regarding clinical experiences?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. All right. So first of all, I want to
9 understand your role. So why were you, on behalf
10 of DPH, reviewing or otherwise gathering
11 information about clinical experiences at Stone
12 Academy?
13 A. As part of the five-year study, that's
14 information that's part of the study. So as a
15 department employee, I went out to make those
16 observations.
17 Q. And then when you say that you presented the
18 five-year study, so you said you gathered
19 information. But "presenting" sounds like you put
20 a study together and made findings; is that right?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. So tell me, when you say "present
23 five-year study to the Board of Examiners For
24 Nursing," what do you mean?
25 A. When Stone Academy provides the information

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1 for the five-year study, it comes to me at the
2 Department. I review the information to ensure
3 that the information is complete, request any
4 additional information. And then, as I said, I
5 make a visit to the campus and make visits to
6 observe clinical experiences.
7 What I'm defining, presentation to the Board
8 of Examiners For Nursing, the Board, I would
9 present my visit to the campus, description of the
10 visit to the campus, and a description of my
11 observations of the clinical experience. The
12 actual documentation is provided by the school
13 directly to each board member. So the
14 documentation that was provided to the Department,
15 school provides directly to the Board.
16 Q. What do you -- and in this case, let's talk
17 about this case, in 2021, what did you do to make
18 sure that the information -- that you were
19 satisfied that the information received from Stone
20 Academy was complete?
21 A. Review all of the information according to
22 the five-year study required components.
23 Q. Did you do anything to evaluate whether the
24 information that you received was accurate?
25 A. The only thing I do evaluate, part of the

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1 information that each school would provide to the
2 department is a list of faculty. And when they
3 provide the faculty list, they do include the
4 Connecticut registered nurse license number. And
5 randomly, I would check that the person actually
6 has an active registered nurse license against the
7 Department's system that shows that a person has a
8 Connecticut registered nurse license.
9 Q. What does "randomly" mean?
10 A. Pick a variety of names. There's no rhyme
11 or reason to how I pick the names.
12 Q. So and I'm not sure that I completely
13 understand. Other than randomly looking at RN
14 registration to see if they're actually in good
15 standing, or whatever you're doing, do you do
16 anything -- did you do anything else in 2021 to
17 determine whether or not the information provided
18 to you by Stone Academy was accurate?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Does anybody do that?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Let me just -- in front of you is a Notice
23 of Deposition. First of all, do you recognize
24 that Notice? You have seen it before?
25 A. Yes, I recognize it.

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1 Q. All right. So I don't want to take -- if
2 you turn to the last two pages -- let's do it this
3 way. Could you identify, on the list of topics,
4 any ones that you do not have personal knowledge
5 about, in other words, that you're not here to
6 testify about today, rather than -- I'm assuming
7 you probably can testify about many of them. So
8 if you could identify the ones you're not
9 testifying about today, that would maybe make it
10 go quicker.
11 A. I would state number 8, "Meetings and
12 communications concerning the status of Stone
13 Academy as an accredited academic institution
14 capable of educating students to become licensed
15 nurse practitioners."
16 Q. And then before you go to the next one, can
17 you tell me, just explain to me why you don't have
18 personal knowledge of that topic?
19 A. I could not give information about Stone
20 Academy as an accredited academic institution.
21 And licensed nurse practitioners, I do not believe
22 they have a nurse practitioner educational
23 program.
24 Q. Okay. Any others?
25 A. Number 9, "Communication with Stone Academy

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1 representatives regarding the school's closure."
2 Q. So let's see if we can close that door, if
3 we will. Did you in fact have any conversations
4 with Stone Academy about its closure?
5 A. No.
6 Q. There was a conference on January 9 of 2023
7 that -- I know that Dr. Seepersad was there. And
8 it was a discussion of deficiencies, if you will,
9 that had been identified in a letter from 2022.
10 Did you participates in that conference?
11 A. Yes, I was present.
12 Q. Did you speak?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did you say?
15 A. During that conference, I spoke about any
16 concerns or findings that I observed during my
17 review of the Practical Nursing Program on
18 January -- excuse me, December 13th and 14th. And
19 also attempts to observe clinical experiences in
20 December. I believe I also went on the Waterbury
21 campus one day in December. So I did share that
22 during the meeting.
23 Q. Okay. So how did you -- how did you come to
24 be at that meeting?
25 A. Are we discussing the January 9 meeting?

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1 Q. Yes, that meeting.
2 A. By invitation.
3 Q. From whom?
4 A. Office -- OHE.
5 Q. You mentioned that you did site visits, you
6 personally did site visits on 12/13 and 12/14 at
7 Stone Academy, yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Had you done any site visits prior to
10 December of 2022, you, personally?
11 A. At Stone Academy?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes. During their five-year study, I had
14 done site visits in 2021.
15 Q. Well, that's actually my question. So
16 after -- when was the five-year study published in
17 2021?
18 A. It was presented to the Board in September,
19 and then they returned in October of 2021.
20 Q. And when you say they returned in October of
21 2021, what do you mean?
22 A. Oh, I'm sorry. They returned to the Board
23 of Examiners For Nursing in 2021.
24 Q. Oh, I see. Okay. And then so between
25 whatever site visit you did in 2021, in December

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1 of 2022, you didn't do any site visits at Stone
2 Academy. Am I correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Did anybody else at DPH do any site visits
5 of Stone Academy?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Did anybody from the Board of Examiners For
8 Nursing do any site visits at Stone Academy
9 between 2021 and December of 2022?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Who would know?
12 A. I don't -- I do not know who would know that
13 answer.
14 Q. Well, if it wasn't you -- in other words,
15 was that your job? In other words, you were the
16 person who was supposed to do the site visits on
17 behalf the Department of Public Health?
18 A. I do site visits for -- to nursing programs
19 in schools, yes.
20 Q. Is there anybody else at DPH who does site
21 visits?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who?
24 A. I believe there are people that could do
25 site visits for other programs, but not the

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1 nursing programs. And at present, there are two
2 other nurse consultants that do site visits at
3 nursing programs or schools.
4 Q. All right. So let's also be clear about our
5 terms. You understand that the lawsuit within
6 which you are testifying today is representing
7 plaintiffs who were in the Practical Nursing
8 Program at Stone Academy. Do you understand that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the idea was to be -- to finish the
11 program and to become a licensed practical nurse;
12 yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So now, let's limit my question to practical
15 nursing programs. Is there anybody else besides
16 you at DPH who would do site visits relating to
17 practical nursing programs?
19 Q. In this timeframe. Let's say from 2021 to
20 present.
21 A. Yes. At present, there are two other nurse
22 consultants that make site visits to nursing
23 programs for schools.
24 Q. Who are they?
25 A. Ina Erlik, E-R-L-I-K, and Susanne Cammarata,

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1 and I believe her last name is C-A -- I don't know
2 if it's M-M -- A-R-A-T-A.
3 Q. And when were they hired?
4 A. I do not know.
5 Q. Recently?
6 A. It's --
7 Q. Okay, were they employed in 2022?
8 A. Ina Erlik was, yes.
9 Q. But Susan Cammarata was not?
10 A. I don't know if she was employed in 2022. I
11 do know Ina was present, yes.
12 Q. Do you know whether Ina did any site visits
13 for practical nursing programs?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where?
16 A. She accompanied me during the Stone Academy
17 visits on 12/13 and 12/14. She also accompanied
18 me when I attempted to make visits to the clinical
19 experiences on three different dates. And she
20 accompanied me to the Waterbury campus on one of
21 those dates.
22 Q. You made reference to making attempts to
23 visit clinical experiences. Can you tell me about
24 that?
25 A. As part of the survey, I was asked to make

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1 observations of the clinical experiences. During
2 the time I was at Stone Academy, on those two
3 days, I did ask for a list of the clinical
4 experiences. And I would make unannounced visits
5 to the clinical locations.
6 The first attempt was with an evening group,
7 and that's usually after five o'clock until
8 sometime in the evening in a location, a long term
9 care facility in Hamden. No students showed up.
10 The second attempt was during the day, so
11 sometime after 7:00 a.m., to a long term care
12 facility in Cheshire, and no students showed up.
13 At that time, I did go to the Waterbury campus.
14 That group was supposed to be from the Waterbury
15 campus.
16 And the third attempt was during the day, to
17 a long term care facility in New Britain, and no
18 students showed up.
19 Q. Okay. So when were those three attempts,
20 when did you do that?
21 A. I could not tell you the exact dates, but in
22 December of 2022.
23 Q. And were there instructors there? So when
24 you went, you said students didn't show up. Were
25 there instructors there?

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1 A. There were not instructors from Stone
2 Academy.
3 Q. Did you investigate and find out why it is
4 that students didn't show up?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what did you find out?
7 A. For the first location, that was an evening
8 experience, I subsequently contacted the Practical
9 Nursing Program administrator -- at the time, I
10 believe it was Dr. Brian Pervis -- and asked about
11 that clinical experience; found out that the
12 clinical instructor had canceled that experience.
13 Q. Well, let's me stop you there. Did you find
14 out why the instructor canceled?
15 A. I was informed that the instructor was out
16 of the country.
17 Q. Okay. How about the next one?
18 A. The next location was Cheshire. And the
19 facility staff, while myself and Ina were at the
20 location waiting for the students and instructor,
21 the facility staff called the Waterbury campus,
22 and then relayed to me that the students would not
23 be coming, students and instructor would not be
24 coming to clinical.
25 Q. And did they give you an explanation why?

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1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Did you ask?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. And then what about the third
5 one?
6 A. The third location, the facility staff, the
7 nursing supervisor, communicated with the director
8 of Nursing. And the director of Nursing told the
9 supervisor, who then told me, that the school was
10 on holiday, or vacation.
11 Q. So okay, I just want to make sure. So one
12 of the reasons why people may not have shown up is
13 because it was December and it was holiday time;
14 is that fair?
17 A. I did, when I was at the campus on the 13th
18 and 14th, I had actually asked Dr. Pervis when the
19 holiday break was to ensure that I would not make
20 a visit on the holiday or break time. That date
21 that I was at the location in New Britain was not
22 what Dr. Pervis had said there was a holiday or
23 break.
24 Q. All right. I had sort of -- we had stopped
25 because you had mentioned 8 and 9 as topics that

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1 you didn't necessarily have personal knowledge.
2 Is there anything else on that list?
3 A. I'd say number 10, "Circumstances related to
4 the audit of Stone Academy students' transcripts
5 Audit 2 after Stone Academy closed."
6 Q. Okay. So my understanding from emails and
7 things was that you participated in that audit,
8 that you assisted. Am I right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. So tell me what you did in connection
11 with that audit.
12 A. I did provide information to the auditors,
13 but did not participate in the audit process.
14 Q. Well, you provided comments, didn't you?
15 A. I provided information.
16 Q. Well, did you tell them that they should use
17 certain terms and not other terms, did you do
18 that?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. So you identified that topic, but you do
21 have knowledge about the audit that occurred after
22 the closure of Stone Academy, yes?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. All right. What else?
25 A. Number 15, "Administration of National

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1 Council of State Boards of Nursing Licensure
2 Examination PN -- NCLEX-PN exam, including but not
3 limited to the purpose of the exam, underlying
4 standards, and the Department of Public Health's
5 role in its administration."
6 Q. Okay. You know what the NCLEX exam is?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What is it?
9 A. It's a national exam that students who
10 graduate from a nursing program must take prior to
11 licensure.
12 Q. And is the -- am I correct that the
13 department of -- Connecticut Department of Public
14 Health is the licensing body for the State of
15 Connecticut for licensed practical nurses, yes?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the Department of Public Health relies
18 on the NCLEX exam as the measure of when to
19 license someone as a licensed practical nurse in
20 the state of Connecticut, yes?
21 A. I couldn't answer for the -- I do not work
22 for the Licensing Unit, so I could not answer what
23 they depend on to license a person.
24 Q. Well, so who would know about, if I wanted
25 to ask somebody how do you choose the NCLEX exam,

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1 what is it, how do you license, all those kinds of
2 things, who would I ask at the Department of
3 Public Health?
4 A. The manager of the Licensure Unit, Mr. Steve
5 Carragher, or our section chief, Chris Andresen,
6 Christian Andresen.
7 MR. SLOSSBERG: And do I understand from
8 counsel that Mr. Andresen is available today?
9 MR. RUTCHICK: Just to be clear, some of
10 it is in the way you've asked your questions. I
11 mean, it's not that Helen knows absolutely nothing
12 about it.
13 MR. SLOSSBERG: I understand that. But
14 I want to --
15 MR. RUTCHICK: Yes, Mr. Andresen is
16 here.
17 MR. SLOSSBERG: Okay.
18 Q. So let's -- is there anything else on there?
19 You identified 15. Is there anything else?
20 A. I would say 16, "Criteria utilizing --
21 utilized in determining which Stone Academy
22 students were unqualified to sit for the NCLEX-PN
23 exam after Stone Academy closed."
24 Q. That's another topic that I should address
25 to Mr. Andresen? He would know?

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1 A. I don't know if --
2 Q. But you're not the person.
3 A. Yes, I'm not the person.
4 Q. Okay. Anything else on that, on the Notice?
5 A. Number 17, "Criteria utilized to flag Stone
6 Academy applicants for the NCLEX-PN exam after
7 Stone Academy closed."
8 Q. Same answer for that, as for 16?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. And then anything else? Is that it?
11 A. That's it.
12 Q. So every other topic on there, you have
13 personal knowledge and feel comfortable testifying
14 as a designated representative of Department of
15 Public Health today?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you do anything to prepare for the
18 deposition? Did you do any research; did you
19 review any documents? What did you do?
20 A. Spoke with my attorneys.
21 Q. I don't want to know what you talked about
22 with your attorneys. I just want to know if you
23 did any independent kind of preparation for the
24 deposition.
25 A. Reviewed the write-up that I shared with the

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1 Nursing Board in January of 2023.
2 Q. Anything else?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So let's talk about the Board of Examiners
5 For Nursing and its relationship to the Department
6 of Public Health. Why don't I ask it this way:
7 What is the relationship between the Board of
8 Examiners For Nursing and the Department of Public
9 Health?
10 A. The Board is a separate group. And the
11 Department supports the Board.
12 Q. What does that mean; what does "supports the
13 Board" mean?
14 A. So collects information for the Board.
15 Q. How is the -- how are the board members,
16 talking about the Board of Examiners for Nursing,
17 selected?
18 A. They are volunteers and appointed by the
19 governor.
20 Q. Does the Department of Public Health play
21 any role in the appointment of the board members?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Do you know who would know that?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. What do you understand the Department of

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1 Public Health's role to be in assuring that
2 private nursing programs deliver suitable
3 education for their students?
5 A. The Department -- I don't know.
6 Q. Well, who -- so who would know that? Would
7 Mr. Andresen?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know. Does the Department of
10 Public Health play a role in making sure that a
11 private nursing program delivers a suitable
12 education for its students?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, how about doing site visits; that's a
15 role, yes?
16 A. It would be a role.
17 Q. How about gathering information? Is that a
18 role, too?
19 A. It's a task that is completed, yes.
20 Q. How about five-year studies?
21 A. Check the information, yes.
22 Q. And present it to the Board?
23 A. Present -- the five-year study is completed
24 by the school, or the program. I review the
25 information to determine if anything is missing,

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1 request additional information, make a campus
2 visit, and make observations of the clinical
3 experiences. I do present my campus visit and my
4 observations of the clinical experiences to the
5 Board.
6 Q. Yeah, and so that involves you expressing a
7 view about whether something is suitable or not,
8 yes?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Does it -- how about if it -- if a program,
11 any aspect of a program, complies with applicable
12 regulations?
13 A. I would state if the information is
14 consistent or not consistent with the regulations,
15 yes.
16 Q. And so Dr. Seepersad said that you were the
17 person who he could rely on to make judgments
18 about whether or not any aspect of a program
19 complied or didn't comply with applicable
20 regulations. Do you agree with that?
21 A. Could you say that again?
22 MR. SLOSSBERG: Could you read that back
23 for me?
24 (THE REPORTER READ THE RECORD)
25 A. No. I would not make a judgment. I would

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1 just state if it complied with regulations, or did
2 not comply with the regulations.
3 Q. And you don't think that involves any
4 judgment?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you're familiar with the regulations?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And your job is to administer the
9 regulations, yes?
10 A. To collect information to -- I'd say I don't
11 know.
12 Q. So what -- describe to me your process. So
13 here you go, you collect information. You're
14 going to present something to the Board of Nursing
15 Examiners For Nursing. What steps do you take to
16 decide, to determine whether particular aspects of
17 a program does comply or doesn't comply with
18 applicable regulations?
19 A. Review the information, have the
20 regulations -- and I have my regulations -- I'm
21 going to use this paper as an example. I actually
22 have a hard copy of the regulations that I have at
23 my desk at all times. Take the regulations out,
24 and ensure the information is consistent with the
25 regulations.

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1 Q. So it's easy enough, as far as you're
2 concerned, to read the regulations and figure out
3 whether or not something complies or not. Yes?
4 A. At times.
5 Q. Well, what does "at times" mean?
6 A. Your question was, was it easy.
7 Q. And when it's not so easy, do you make
8 judgments?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So what happens then?
11 A. I would say that sometimes easy is not my --
12 sometimes it's a time consuming process, which is
13 not an easy process.
14 Q. Okay. So easy is -- it's hard work to
15 collect information. I'm talking about --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- the analysis part, what you do with the
18 information. So easy enough, once you collect the
19 information, to read the regulations and decide
20 whether something complies or not; yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then you present that to the Board of
23 Examiners For Nursing; yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then what does the Board of Examiners

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1 For Nursing do with your presentation?
2 A. Whatever they deem necessary.
3 Q. Do they ask you questions?
4 A. Sometimes.
5 Q. Okay. What kind of questions does the Board
6 ask you?
8 A. The Board could ask me to clarify what I had
9 written.
10 Q. Anything else?
11 A. More details of what I observed. They can
12 ask for, if they're not able to read a document
13 that's not legible, is it legible, was the
14 document that was provided to me legible. Those
15 are examples of what the Board could ask me.
16 Q. Do you know what the Accrediting Bureau For
17 Health Education Schools is, ABHES?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you or anyone at DPH have any role in
20 collecting information that would go to any
21 accrediting agency for practical nursing programs?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. But you don't?
24 A. I do not, no.
25 Q. Do you play -- "you," and again, right, DPH.

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1 Does DPH review any programmatic documentation
2 that any school would have? So let me give you an
3 example.
4 Stone Academy has a handbook. It has a
5 catalog of course curriculum. It has enrollment
6 forms. It has application forms. All of those
7 documents, does DPH review those?
8 A. During the five-year study, some of those
9 components are provided. Your example of a
10 student handbook and a student catalog would be
11 examples of what would be provided during the
12 five-year study document request.
13 Q. And what does DPH do with those documents
14 after requesting them?
15 A. For a five-year study, I review them. The
16 Department of Public Health does maintain the
17 five-year study in hard copy format.
18 Q. Does the Department of Public Health, in
19 connection with the review of programmatic
20 documents, provide feedback as to whether, you
21 know, a document needs to be changed or made to
22 come within compliance with applicable
23 regulations?
24 A. I would say yes.
25 Q. Okay. So is that something that you

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1 personally do?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So tell me how you do that.
4 A. When I would be reviewing a five-year study,
5 if the information is not complete in the
6 five-year study, or if it is inaccurate, I would
7 ask them to provide either additional information,
8 or remove the inaccurate information.
9 Q. How do you determine what is inaccurate?
10 A. According to the necessary components in the
11 five-year study, the documents that would be
12 required.
13 Q. Well, so let's talk about the handbook
14 specifically. Did you review, in the five-year
15 study, did you review the Stone Academy student
16 handbook?
17 A. I don't recall if I reviewed it.
18 Q. How about the catalog of course offerings,
19 did you review that?
20 A. Again, I don't recall.
21 Q. Do you expect you did?
22 A. I would expect that I did. But that might
23 be speculating if I'm saying I expect that I would
24 normally do something.
25 Q. All right. So then let me ask generally.

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1 If you were reviewing a handbook, student
2 handbook, just tell me what you would do, actually
3 do, to determine whether the information in the
4 student handbook was accurate.
5 A. I would read every page.
6 Q. What do you compare it to, what are you
7 using as your guidelines for whether or not
8 something is accurate?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Does the Department of Public Health have an
11 investigatory function when it comes to practical
12 nursing programs?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So when you go for a site visit, do you
15 consider that to be an investigation?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, I take it that -- isn't that function
18 to go and gather facts so that you can present it
19 to the Board of Examiners For Nursing?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You don't consider that to be an
22 investigation?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What do you consider to be an investigation?
25 A. I would consider being directed to begin an

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1 investigation into a particular topic, asking
2 questions, getting -- getting additional
3 information, providing the complete investigation,
4 reviewing all of the components of what the
5 complaint would be, investigating every component
6 of a complaint, asking questions, maybe getting
7 additional documentation; having a provider in the
8 same practice area review that investigation and
9 give an opinion, along with being guided and
10 directed by my supervisor.
11 Q. Who's your supervisor?
12 A. Dana Dalton.
13 Q. And what is -- Mr., Mrs.?
14 A. Ms.
15 Q. Ms. Dana Dalton. And what's her title?
16 A. Supervising nurse consultant.
17 Q. And can you just tell me in terms of the
18 chain of reporting, so who does Ms. Dalton report
19 to?
20 A. Laura Morris.
21 Q. And who's that?
22 A. Manager of our section.
23 Q. And then to whom does Ms. Morris --
24 A. Chris Andresen. Christian Andresen, our
25 section chief.

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1 Q. Let me just see if I can kind of -- you tell
2 me if you agree with this and maybe we can wrap
3 this up in a bow, okay? I'm just trying to
4 summarize.
5 With regard to five-year reviews, you don't
6 consider that to be an investigation, --
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. -- correct? And the only time that the
9 Department of Public Health would do an
10 investigation is if they were directed to do an
11 investigation, --
13 Q. -- is that fair?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Well, I'm using your words. You said "an
16 investigation where I'm directed to do an
17 investigation."
18 A. I said I am directed. I'm not the entire
19 Department. I am an individual that works at the
20 Department.
21 Q. All right, who would direct you?
22 A. My supervisor.
23 Q. And you said that you think that an
24 investigation would involve a complaint that would
25 be investigated?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So when you're talking about complaints,
3 what kinds of complaints?
4 A. From the general public. It could be from a
5 patient, a family member, an employee of some
6 type; the general public observing something. It
7 could be another state agency.
8 Q. What about LPN students, practical nursing
9 students?
10 A. If a practical nursing student contacts the
11 Department with a complaint regarding a health --
12 a licensed healthcare provider, I would guide that
13 person through our complaint process. There would
14 be a form to fill out. They would need to mail it
15 to the Department. And then my supervisor would
16 take that complaint regarding a licensed
17 healthcare provider.
18 If it was in regards to a school issue or
19 concern, as a student, I would do three things. I
20 would direct the student to make a complaint to
21 their school, or they may call it a grievance,
22 each school. I would have them check generally
23 their handbook. Second, I would direct them to
24 the Office of Higher Education to submit a
25 complaint as a student. And third, I would direct

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1 them that they can participate in the Board of
2 Examiners For Nursing meeting, as there is a
3 public forum time where they can share any issues
4 or concerns with the Board directly.
5 Q. So with regard to your -- let's just talk
6 about the Department of Public Health right now.
7 Are you aware of any investigations that were done
8 by the Department of Public Health for any
9 practical nursing student complaint from Stone
10 Academy?
11 A. I am not.
12 Q. Were there any Stone Academy students who
13 contacted the DPH and were directed elsewhere?
14 A. I do not recall.
15 Q. So it's possible it happened, you just don't
16 recall?
18 Q. Are you familiar with sort of the process
19 for issuing certificates of authorization for
20 programs and then engaging in Corrective Action
21 Plans and remedial efforts where, you know,
22 practical nursing programs are not meeting
23 standards?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you don't do that?

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1 A. No.
2 Q. So you wouldn't be able to testify, for
3 example, about any Corrective Action Plans with
4 regard to Stone Academy?
5 A. Corrective Action Plans specific to a NCLEX
6 test result for Stone Academy, I am aware of that.
7 Q. All right. So tell me what you did in
8 connection with Stone Academy regarding Corrective
9 Action Plans concerning NCLEX scores.
10 A. When the Board directs that a school must
11 provide a Corrective Action Plan, related to the
12 NCLEX test results, they -- the school then sends
13 the information to me. I review the information,
14 write a summary. And then during the Board
15 meeting, read aloud my summary.
16 I will also say that the information that is
17 sent to me from the school, their Corrective
18 Action Plan or CAP, would be then sent in a timely
19 manner to the Public Health hearing office, along
20 with my abbreviated, very abbreviated summary of
21 the Corrective Action Plan. And then the Public
22 Health Office then transmits that to each Board
23 member in advance of the Board's meeting.
24 Q. Do you make recommendations as to what steps
25 should be taken when there's a Corrective Action

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1 Plan?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So when you summarize information that you
4 receive from a school, what do you tell the Board?
5 A. I summarize what their Corrective Action
6 Plan is.
7 Q. Do you consult with the school and say, you
8 know, "You really need to consider this," or "You
9 have to add this," or "You have to do this"? Do
10 you do any of that?
11 A. I do not consult with the school. I would
12 say, if information is missing, I would say, "It
13 seems information is missing."
14 Q. Well, I'm still not understanding. What
15 does it mean, information missing? Give me an
16 example of something with Stone Academy that was
17 missing.
18 A. I couldn't recall. I don't recall.
19 Q. What about attendance records; did you have
20 problems with attendance records?
21 A. Related to a Corrective Action Plan?
22 Q. Yes.
24 Q. Well, you don't recall anything about things
25 that were missing in connection with your role

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1 with Stone Academy?
2 A. I don't recall if items were missing from
3 Corrective Action Plans related to the NCLEX test
4 results for Stone Academy. I do not recall.
5 Q. All right, I'll broaden the question. Just
6 in general, when you were -- whatever you were
7 doing with Stone Academy, gathering information,
8 can you remember things that you were -- that were
9 missing, and you had to go back to them and say,
10 "I want some examples of those things"?
11 A. And you said "examples of those things." Is
12 this related to their five-year study? Is it a
13 Corrective Action Plan?
14 Q. Just in general. I don't care what it is.
15 I don't care whether it's the five-year plan; I
16 don't care whether it's the after 2021 and your
17 role then. I want to know instances where you
18 went back and said there were things that were
19 missing and what those things were.
21 Q. You don't recall any?
22 A. I don't.
23 Q. Who's the person at the Board of Examiners
24 For Nursing, if I wanted to depose somebody from
25 there and ask them about all the decisionmaking,

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1 who should I talk to? Who would you talk to? And
2 I'm Stone Academy.
3 A. The Board does have a chairperson.
4 Q. Who's that?
5 A. Dr. Patricia Bouffard.
6 Q. How frequently do you speak with her?
7 A. Rarely.
8 Q. Is there anybody else -- how long has Mrs.
9 Bouffard been on that Board?
10 A. I don't know how long she's been on the
11 Board.
12 Q. Anyone else who -- is there somebody at the
13 Board who you speak with on a regular basis?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Anyone you speak with on the Board?
16 A. No.
17 Q. People don't call you and say "Hey, we need
18 you to get this information or that information"?
19 A. They do not.
20 MR. SLOSSBERG: Let's take ten minutes.
21 We've been going for more than an hour.
22 (R E C E S S)
23 BY MR. SLOSSBERG:
24 Q. All right, I'm going to refer to the next
25 document that I will show the witness, which is

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1 exhibit -- it's PJR Exhibit Number 21, okay? And
2 it's got a sticker on it to that effect.
3 So Ms. Smith, I'm going to show you what
4 we've marked as --
5 MR. HEALY: What number?
6 MR. SLOSSBERG: 21, full exhibit.
7 Q. -- and ask you whether you recognize that
8 document?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What is it?
11 A. The -- should I refer to numbers here?
12 Q. Of course.
13 A. B, C, D and E are violations of the
14 regulations that I observed during the Stone
15 Academy visit on 12/9 -- excuse me, 12/13/2022,
16 and 12/14. There was also concerns listed, D.
17 And then F, violations related to observations of
18 clinical experiences. And G and H are the NCLEX
19 first time test takers percentages of candidates
20 that passed from 2019 to 2022 for the schools in
21 Connecticut, nursing schools in Connecticut.
22 Q. All right. So the first thing is, the
23 document, the pages that you identified, B, C, D,
24 E and F, did you draft this document?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And you said that it included violations,
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Can you just tell me what it is that
5 allows you to be able to assess whether or not
6 there are violations, what is it in your
7 experience that allows you to do that?
8 A. So it's review of the regulations from what
9 I observed. So my experience would be my -- I
10 would say my training, my education, training, and
11 experiences completing the onsite campus and
12 clinical visits for many schools in Connecticut.
13 Q. Okay. And how many schools?
14 A. At present, there are 33 RN schools and 17
15 LPN schools. Now I'm saying 17; it's actually not
16 17 schools. Each school that has a campus, and
17 then a day or evening program, has a unique NCLEX
18 test code. So it would be 33 unique NCLEX test
19 codes for the RN programs in Connecticut, and 17
20 unique NCLEX test codes for the practical nursing
21 programs in Connecticut.
22 Q. So for example, Stone Academy had three
23 campuses; yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And they had day and night programs. So a

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1 NCLEX score might be for an evening program at one
2 of the campuses?
3 A. Correct. Each campus, and then day or
4 evening program, would have a unique NCLEX program
5 code. So if Stone Academy had three campuses, and
6 each campus had a day and evening program, they
7 would have six unique NCLEX test codes.
8 Q. Understood. Now, with regard to -- you've
9 told me what your education is. Were you actually
10 trained to read the regulations and determine, you
11 know, what would or would not comply?
12 A. When I became a nurse consultant
13 practitioner, Licensing Investigation Section, I
14 did have an orientation by a supervisor. I also
15 have a weekly and really daily communication with
16 my supervisor. The regulations were certainly
17 reviewed.
18 I also had a one-on-one orientation by the
19 previous nurse consultant who completed the
20 information gathering from nursing schools from
21 about the fall of 2015, to when her retirement was
22 in spring of 2017. So during that time, one on
23 one, I worked with the former nurse consultant who
24 did the same review.
25 I have also completed investigator training,

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1 basic and advanced. I have completed training
2 from NCSBN as an investigator. I also am a
3 certified medical board investigator, present to
4 the Nursing Board as described. I also take phone
5 calls regarding scope of practice and respond to
6 e-mails for scope of practice.
7 In the past, I had written on a monthly
8 basis the actual calls, what the topics of those
9 calls were, and presented those calls to the
10 Nursing Board as part of my presentation to the
11 Board at each meeting.
12 Q. So actually, I didn't -- I should have asked
13 you this earlier, but in terms of just the other
14 training that you have, aside from your education,
15 what training did you receive as an investigator?
16 A. I received federal training on how to survey
17 a long term care facility; how to survey a
18 hospital; how to survey a surgical center;
19 infection control in surgical centers.
20 Investigator training that I spoke about.
21 And I do have the Nurse Practice Act and
22 Regulations. And again, I'm going to pick up this
23 piece of paper, but at my desk, I have both the
24 Nurse Practice Act in hard copy and the
25 regulations in hard copy, and I literally, when

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1 any request is made, I literally will pull out the
2 regulations.
3 Q. So with regard to investigator and your
4 training, did you have any training in terms of
5 investigating practical nursing programs?
6 A. That would be through that one-on-one, about
7 from fall of 2015 to spring of 2017, with my
8 former colleague, and review the documents that
9 would be necessary, so whether it would be a
10 five-year study, or -- that would be my training
11 specific to that.
12 Q. On-the-job training?
13 A. On-the-job training, and also, again, with
14 my supervisor, at all times, communication.
15 Q. What is the NCSBN?
16 A. National Council State Boards of Nursing.
17 Q. And am I correct that the NCSBN also
18 develops and provides the NCLEX exam to states for
19 licensure?
20 A. The exam is actually administered through a
21 separate company called Pearson VUE, the actual
22 exam. So NCSBN does not administer the test.
23 Pearson VUE administers the NCLEX exams.
24 Q. If you go to the NCSBN website, am I correct
25 that the NCSBN develops the exam?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And they update it every three years?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. So have you been to the NCSBN website?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you familiar with it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Let me just show you what we'll
9 mark as Exhibit 2, something from the website.
10 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 2 FOR
11 IDENTIFICATION, Received and Marked.)
12 Q. And I guess my first question is, do you
13 recognize this?
14 MR. RUTCHICK: Is the date up top the
15 date on which you printed it?
16 MR. SLOSSBERG: Yes. At 2:47 p.m. on
17 the 10th of November.
18 A. I do not recognize it.
19 Q. All right. Well, let's take a look at it.
20 And I'm going to ask you if you agree with the
21 content.
22 First of all, do you consider the National
23 Council of State Boards of Nursing to be an
24 authoritative organization for nursing programs
25 throughout the country?

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1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, you agree that the State of
3 Connecticut has adopted the NCLEX as the licensing
4 examination for practical nursing; yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And so at least from the State of
7 Connecticut's point of view, it's a suitable means
8 to assess whether or not somebody should be
9 licensed, right?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Who would know?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. So let's take a look at the document. You
14 see "the premiere licensure exam," do you agree
15 with that, that that's what it is?
16 A. That's what the document says.
17 Q. Well, I mean, you're here as a
18 representative of the Department of Public Health.
19 You said you have the regulations on your desk.
20 You have experience, you're an investigator. The
21 document that I just showed you, which is Exhibit
22 21, you're collecting information about NCLEX and
23 sending it to people. So I want to know whether
24 or not you have any understanding of a NCLEX exam.
25 Do you?

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1 A. Do I have understanding of the exam?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yes, I have understanding of the exam.
4 Q. All right. Well, here it says NCSBN, right,
5 I'm just looking, "is dedicated to developing
6 psychometrically sound and legally defensible
7 nurse licensure and certification examinations
8 consistent with current entry level practice." Do
9 you agree with that?
10 A. I don't know. I do not work for NCSBN.
11 Q. But you work for the Department of Public
12 Health.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the Department of Public Health
15 administers the test, right?
16 A. The Department of Public Health does not
17 administer --
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. -- the NCLEX.
20 Q. I'll withdraw the question. Relies on the
21 test to license practical nurses in the state of
22 Connecticut, that's what the Department of Public
23 Health does, right?
24 A. I don't know. It would be someone from the
25 Licensure Unit that would need to answer that

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1 question. I do not -- I do not generate the
2 license.
3 Q. When you gather the information -- so in
4 Exhibit 21, there's a chart on the back of it for
5 the NCLEX. Why are you gathering that
6 information?
7 A. According to the regulations, the NCLEX data
8 is collected on an annual basis from May 1st of
9 the previous year, to April 30th of the present
10 year, collecting information on the students who
11 have attended schools in Connecticut and then
12 taken the licensure exam. I'm collecting it based
13 on the regulations.
14 Q. Yeah, but why; why does the State of
15 Connecticut care about the NCLEX scores?
17 A. The regulations state that 80 percent of the
18 students who take the exam for the first time, 80
19 percent would pass that licensure exam.
20 Q. Okay, and why is that important? Why is 80
21 percent threshold important?
22 A. It's according to the regulations.
23 Q. Well, why is it important?
25 Q. Why does it -- why 80 percent? Why not 20

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1 percent?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Is there somebody at DPH who would know the
4 answer to that question?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. So just so we are clear, it's your testimony
7 as a designated representative for the Department
8 of Public Health that you don't have any views
9 about the NCLEX exam that you can testify to on
10 behalf of the Department of Public Health, is that
11 right?
12 MR. RUTCHICK: Object; I'm going to
13 object. She's not here as an expert. She's here
14 as a fact witness to testify about these
15 particular things. She's not here to provide
16 based on her expertise whether she thinks it's
17 sufficient or not. She already testified the
18 regulations require it. If you want to know why
19 the regulations were written or something, you're
20 going to have to go elsewhere. And if you want
21 opinion testimony, I'm going to object, instruct
22 not to answer, and we're going to go before the
23 judge. She's not here -- she's here as a fact
24 witness.
25 MR. SLOSSBERG: And so, look, I don't

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1 want to argue with you, but is it your position
2 that the Department of Public Health has no views
3 or nothing to offer in the way of its regulatory
4 authority on anything?
5 MR. RUTCHICK: No.
6 MR. SLOSSBERG: Okay, so then I have a
7 right to ask this witness some questions. And if
8 we have to go before the judge because people
9 haven't been prepared to talk about topics today,
10 then I would really hate to have to do that. But
11 I'm, you know, --
12 MR. RUTCHICK: So it's clear, you're
13 asking --
14 MR. SLOSSBERG: We don't have to have a
15 colloquy here about whether or not we're going
16 before the judge, okay? And we're wasting time.
17 Q. So I take it -- so we're going to move on to
18 the next thing. I want to show you -- there's a
19 document that was marked as Defendant's Exhibit
20 517 at the Prejudgment Remedy hearing. And I'm
21 going to show this to you and ask you if you
22 recognize this document.
23 A. Yes, I recognize it.
24 Q. What is it?
25 A. Information regarding LPN license applicants

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1 who graduated from Stone Academy after November
2 1st, 2021.
3 Q. And was that the date of the approval of the
4 five-year study, November 1, 2021?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So what is relevant about November 1, 2021?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. What role, if any, did you play in
9 preparation of this document?
10 A. None.
11 Q. Who prepared it?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. When is the last time you saw this document?
14 A. I can't recall.
15 Q. Did you play any role after its preparation
16 in answering student questions, or otherwise
17 directing anybody's conduct with regard to what is
18 in here?
19 A. As far as student questions on the phone
20 that I have at the Department of Public Health,
21 it's my extension in the nursing scope of practice
22 line, so I may have answered student questions. I
23 don't recall exactly if I did or not, but I may
24 have answered student questions.
25 Q. Does the Department keep records -- do you

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1 keep records of phone calls?
2 A. I do not keep records of phone calls. I do
3 not know if the Department as a whole does.
4 Q. So, for example, if you have a conversation
5 with a student who calls, would you take notes of
6 that conversation?
7 A. If a student calls, I would speak to them
8 regarding what they're calling. Generally, no, I
9 would not take notes on that.
10 Q. Well, let me just ask you, for example, you
11 know, based on the regulations -- let's see.
12 So do you see number one on the first page
13 there, it says "I graduated from Stone Academy on
14 or after November 1, 2021, and I just passed the
15 NCLEX. Will DPH issue me a LPN license?" Do you
16 see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it says "Yes, DPH is required by law to
19 issue an LPN license to applicants after they have
20 passed the NCLEX." Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you agree?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. So who would know that?
25 A. I don't know.

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1 Q. Were you consulted at all to provide
2 information in preparation of this document which
3 is Exhibit 517?
4 A. I was consulted to ask about what refresher
5 courses there are approved by the Board of
6 Examiners For Nursing that are in Connecticut.
7 Q. And what did you say, what did you find out?
8 A. I provided them the list of refresher
9 courses in Connecticut that are approved by the
10 Board.
11 Q. What is a refresher course?
12 A. It's a course that a nurse can take to
13 refresh his or her skills in the area of nursing.
14 Q. You're talking about preexisting refresher
15 courses, or ones that were developed for this
16 purpose?
17 A. Ones that were approved by the Nursing
18 Board.
19 Q. Were you involved in any discussions
20 internally at the DPH about requesting Stone
21 Academy graduates who passed the NCLEX to sign a
22 stipulation agreeing to a refresher course?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You weren't consulted at all?
25 A. No.

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1 Q. If you had to go and find out in DPH who
2 would know about this, who would you talk to?
3 A. I would talk to my supervisor.
4 Q. Who's that?
5 A. Ms. Dalton, Dana Dalton.
6 Q. And her supervisor is Mr. --
7 A. Her supervisor would be Laura Morris,
8 manager. And her supervisor would be Chris
9 Andresen, section chief.
10 Q. Okay. So I probably could talk to Mr.
11 Andresen and he might know. You don't know?
12 A. I don't know.
13 MR. RUTCHICK: I could tell you that's
14 why we brought him here, so -- one of the reasons.
15 Q. Okay, let me show you what has been marked
16 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 29, which is a full exhibit
17 at the PJR hearing, and ask you if you recognize
18 this document.
19 Do you recognize this document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What role did you play in its preparation?
22 A. None.
23 Q. Did you provide information?
24 A. Provide information on?
25 Q. In connection with the preparation of this

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1 document.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you read any draft of it?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you -- and I want to make sure that
6 we're not -- this is a summary of an audit, yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you play a role in the underlying audit?
9 A. I provided information to the auditors, yes.
10 Q. And with whom did you communicate at the
11 auditors?
12 A. There was a Jeffrey; I don't recall the
13 person's last name. And an Erin. Again, don't
14 recall the person's last name. There may have
15 been a third person, a woman; I don't recall the
16 name at all.
17 Q. Did you, in connection with the audit,
18 prepare a list of -- sort of a check list of
19 topics that -- and information that should be
20 reviewed and addressed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you provide any information to the
23 auditors on what would be appropriate information
24 to review according to the applicable -- according
25 to regulations?

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1 A. I did provide the regulations to the
2 auditors.
3 Q. And you said -- and you provided them with
4 the regulations and said "You should refer to
5 this;" yes?
6 A. I provided the regulations.
7 Q. There are references in here, in the
8 summary, and I'll give you an example. If you
9 turn to page 8 of 9. See where it says "reviewing
10 attendance files continued" at the top of the
11 page, page 2?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And then Roman -- no, just number 2, it says
14 "Per DPH, valid clinical attendance sheets must
15 include the following." Right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So what does it mean, "Per DPH"?
18 A. That may have been a conversation that I had
19 with an auditor.
20 Q. Okay. But the point is that you were giving
21 the auditors guidance based on your experience;
22 yes?
23 A. I was providing them information.
24 Q. You were doing more than that, right? You
25 were -- it says "Per DPH, valid clinical

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1 attendance sheets must include the following."
2 Did you have that conversation with the auditors?
3 A. I may have.
4 Q. And but as you sit here, you just don't
5 recall?
7 Q. If you turn to page 12, "Missing or
8 incomplete information." Do you see number one?
9 It says "Per Department of Public Health, if one
10 or more of the fields within a clinical student
11 attendance occurrence was incomplete, the hours
12 for that student in the clinical session were
13 classified as invalid." Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So it says "Per Department of Public
16 Health." What conversations did you have with the
17 auditors about the fields being filled out in the
18 attendance records?
19 A. I don't recall the conversation.
20 Q. How about generally?
21 A. I may have said the components of a clinical
22 attendance sheet.
23 Q. This happened like in the last six months,
24 right? Whatever conversations you had -- well,
25 maybe eight months. It's not that long ago. You

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1 don't have a recollection of any conversations you
2 had with the auditors?
3 A. I don't recall the exact conversations that
4 I had with the auditors.
5 Q. Okay. So let's try it this way. Whether or
6 not you recall the exact words you used, can you
7 tell me generally what you discussed with the
8 auditors regarding the fields for attendance
9 sheets?
11 Q. Did you -- do you recall at least having the
12 conversation?
13 A. I can't recall --
14 Q. Do you --
15 A. -- conversation.
16 Q. Do you think -- are you suggesting that
17 somehow this is misreported in the audit, that
18 "Per Department of Public Health," that that's
19 somehow not correct?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Was there anybody else besides you
22 communicating with the auditors and providing
23 information --
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. -- from the DPH?

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1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, the one person you mentioned is junior
3 to you, yes, the person who went to the -- is it
4 Ina, who went to the site views with you?
5 A. She's not junior to me. We're both nurse
6 consultants.
7 Q. Okay. Did anybody discuss with you -- do
8 you agree, is it -- let me ask it this way: Is it
9 your view that if something -- like if attendance
10 sheets didn't comply with the regulations, that
11 the clinical session would be invalid?
12 A. There are no regulations related to
13 attendance sheets.
14 Q. Okay. So what do you know -- tell me about
15 your view or your knowledge of how attendance
16 sheets should be kept.
17 A. What I observed when I go out to a clinical
18 experience, I do observe that the schools
19 routinely use clinical attendance sheets with the
20 date, the time of the clinical experience, the
21 location, the instructor's name and
22 qualifications, the times that the students
23 arrive. Sometimes there's lunch break times on
24 that list, and sometimes there's just dates when
25 they conclude. So that's what I observed.

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1 Q. And you said -- you're saying there's no
2 actual requirements in a regulation for those
3 elements?
4 A. There's no regulation that speaks to
5 attendance sheets for a clinical experience.
6 Q. When you did the five-year study in 2021,
7 did you request information from Stone Academy
8 regarding their methods of attendance, keeping
9 attendance?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So as you -- all right. And if there's
12 documents in the record that say otherwise, would
13 you dispute them?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. If you look at page 15, "Reviewing
16 instructors." It says "CLA was initially provided
17 a list of 124 instructors with each identified as
18 either qualified or unqualified." Do you see
19 that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, you, personally, went through and made
22 a list and identified who you believed of the
23 instructors at Stone Academy were both -- were
24 either qualified or unqualified; yes?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. How did you do that?
2 A. During the visit on December 13th and 14th,
3 myself and my colleague Ina reviewed the
4 faculty -- the nursing faculty files. We
5 collected information if that person has an active
6 registered nurse license in the state of
7 Connecticut, their minimum level of education,
8 their years of clinical experience. And if they
9 had not earned a graduate degree, the date of hire
10 to when they earned a graduate degree. That is
11 where I got the data for this list. So that would
12 be in accordance with the regulations.
13 Q. Okay. And it says -- it refers in
14 subsection A, "Verification in collaboration with
15 the Department of Public Health." So there was a
16 collaboration; yes?
17 A. I would not -- was there a collaboration; I
18 don't know. I did provide them additional
19 information.
20 Q. Yeah, and you didn't just give them the regs
21 and say "Go look at the list and make your own
22 judgment." You went -- you did the process; you
23 went through and made your judgments as to who was
24 qualified and who wasn't; yes?
25 A. I did not make judgment. I compared the

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1 data to the regulations.
2 Q. And that didn't -- you're saying that didn't
3 involve any judgment on your part?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If you turn the page to 16, do you see where
6 it says subsection C, Relevant attendance sheet
7 had a blank or unidentifiable instructor name,"
8 and it says "classified as unqualified per DPH."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So tell me what you know about that.
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Was there anybody else at DPH communicating
14 with the auditors?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Do you guys have office meetings, like
17 department meetings, weekly meetings, monthly
18 meetings?
19 A. I meet with my supervisor on a weekly basis
20 and also communicate on a daily basis regarding my
21 investigations or other information.
22 Q. Do you have like, I don't know what they
23 call them, you know, roundups on Monday mornings
24 where everybody sort of gets on the same page as
25 to what people are working on; you know, some kind

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1 of meeting where people in the Department are
2 together?
3 A. I can only speak for my role as a
4 consultant. I speak with my direct supervisor.
5 Q. If you go to the next page, this is on
6 clinical sites. There's a couple of references
7 here "Per DPH."
8 "One of the 54 clinical sites identified,
9 Marlborough Healthcare and Rehab Center, was not
10 an approved clinical location, per DPH." Do you
11 see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that information you provided to the
14 auditors?
15 A. It was.
16 Q. Okay. So describe your process for making
17 that determination.
18 A. The auditors requested a list. So in the
19 five-year study, part of the information that is
20 provided is a list of clinical locations where
21 clinical experiences happen. The Practical
22 Nursing Program has a contract with the clinical
23 location.
24 Looking at that list, and then also reaching
25 out to some of the other clinical locations that

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1 were identified by the auditors, the Department
2 asked the -- either the information in the
3 five-year study, the list of clinical locations,
4 reviewing that, or calling the facility directly,
5 "Did you have a contract with Stone Academy to
6 allow the practical nursing students to have a
7 clinical experience at your facility," either
8 answered by the director of Nursing, or the
9 administrator of the facility. So that
10 information was then communicated to the auditors.
11 Q. So it's your understanding from the
12 regulations that if there's going to be a
13 relationship between Stone Academy and a clinical
14 site for purposes of providing clinical
15 experiences, there must be a written contract
16 between them; yes?
17 A. The regulations speak to a contract. I,
18 again, would have to see if it says "written
19 contract." But there must be a contract agreement
20 to allow the facility to allow the students to
21 have a clinical experience at that location.
22 Q. All right. And do you see, under subsection
23 B, on page 17, "There were 3,518 occurrences of
24 students who attended a clinical course that was
25 taught on campus." And then it says "(invalid per

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1 DPH for the period under review)." Do you see
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So is that what you told the auditors?
5 A. The regulations speak to the clinical
6 experiences must be, for a Practical Nursing
7 Program, either supervised direct -- I believe it
8 says client patient care, or observation related
9 to the educational outcome, or appropriate to the
10 educational outcome. So the clinical courses on
11 campus do not -- are not consistent with the
12 regulations.
13 Q. Well, you know, you've been telling me how
14 easy it is to look at the regulations and figure
15 out if something doesn't comply. And you also
16 told me that the last five-year study was in
17 November, you know, was in 2021.
18 So what, if anything, did DPH do between
19 2021 and December of '23 to find out whether
20 clinical experiences were being provided to the
21 students at Stone Academy in an appropriate way
22 under the regulations?
23 A. The schools are very familiar -- well, the
24 schools are aware. I don't know how familiar they
25 are with the regulations, but the schools -- it is

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1 the school's responsibility to provide the
2 clinical experience to the student, not the
3 Department. The Department does not approve the
4 program. The Board of Examiners For Nursing
5 approves the pre-licensure nursing program.
6 Q. I understand. But am I correct that it's
7 the Department that has the investigatory power,
8 the Department of Public Health, right?
9 A. Related to?
10 Q. Well, so the Board of Examiners For Nursing,
11 do they have any staff, their own staff?
12 A. No, they do not.
13 Q. So the staff that they use is at the
14 Department of Public Health, yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They don't have any investigators, do they?
17 A. The Board?
18 Q. The Board.
19 A. Do not.
20 Q. So you're a certified -- you said you have
21 all this training as an investigator. The
22 investigators are at the Department of Public
23 Health; yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So it's the Department of Public Health that

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1 does investigations; yes?
2 A. We do investigations, yes.
3 Q. And then you report to the Board the
4 findings of your investigation?
5 A. If it is an individual licensee, it may go
6 in front of a board or commission, and it may not.
7 Q. When does it not?
8 A. When a community consultant opines that the
9 standard of care, standard of practice, has been
10 met for that licensee.
11 Q. All right. Well, so my question is a simple
12 one. Between 2021 and December of 2023, --
13 withdrawn.
14 From 2021, when you did the -- finished the
15 five-year study, until December of 2022, did the
16 DPH do any investigation into whether or not Stone
17 Academy was complying with the regulations for
18 clinical experiences for its students?
19 A. I do not know.
20 Q. Well, would you be the one to do that?
21 A. One of the people.
22 Q. Well, who else? Who else did any kind of
23 investigation for Stone Academy during that time
24 period, anyone?
25 A. I don't know.

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1 Q. When you go and investigate -- you went in
2 December of 2022. Did you -- did you do any
3 preparation for that, like go and look in the file
4 and see if anybody from DPH investigated prior to
5 that?
6 A. That was a survey that I was requested to
7 attend. It was not an investigation.
8 Q. And you don't think that if you're on
9 conditional authorization, that that's an
10 investigation?
11 A. Explain "conditional authorization."
12 Q. Well, do you know the difference, if you're
13 approved as a -- you know, there's conditional and
14 unconditional. And you don't know anything about
15 that?
16 A. The regulations for the school programs are
17 three levels: Initial approval for a new program,
18 conditional approval, and full approval. So
19 there's no authorization or unauthorization.
20 It's --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. -- in one of those three.
23 Q. Thank you for correcting me. So if I'm
24 using the word "approval," when somebody -- when a
25 program is on conditional approval, and you go out

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1 and visit, you do, you know, your site assessment,
2 you don't consider that to be an investigation?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The document that I showed you, that you
5 have in front of you, which is Exhibits 29, when
6 is the last time you saw this document?
7 A. I believe that it was reviewed by the Office
8 of Higher Education, provided to the Department
9 and the Board sometime in the summer.
10 Q. Did you review this document in preparation
11 for this deposition?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you have records of communications with
14 the auditors; emails, for example?
15 A. I may.
16 Q. Do you have notes of conversations?
17 A. I may.
18 Q. Do you have -- do you have like a -- do you
19 have a calendar, do you keep a calendar of when --
20 did you have conference calls, did you get on Zoom
21 calls with the auditors?
22 A. I don't recall if I did Zoom calls with the
23 auditors. The Department uses Microsoft Teams,
24 but that same --
25 Q. Teams.

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1 A. -- virtual communication. I don't recall.
2 Q. Did you have in-person meetings with the
3 auditors?
4 A. I met one of the auditors, I believe it was
5 Erin, at the Office of Higher Education.
6 Q. When was that?
7 A. That was either January or February of 2023.
8 Q. Who was present?
9 A. I was there, Erin was there. I know Dr.
10 Seepersad was there, other OHE staff. I'm trying
11 to think of their names. Christine; I don't know
12 Christine's last name. Vi; again, OHE staff.
13 Giancarlo. There were other OHE staff who I don't
14 know their names. And there may have been other
15 people, but I don't recall.
16 Q. What did you say at that meeting?
18 Q. Did you report any inconsistencies between
19 Stone Academy's conduct and requirements of state
20 regulations?
21 A. The findings that I had observed in December
22 had already been shared with the Board in a public
23 meeting in January. I believe the meeting was
24 after that. So that information had already been
25 shared in the Nursing Board meeting.

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1 Q. Do you remember what anyone else said with
2 the auditors?
3 A. I don't. I don't recall.
4 Q. Do you remember what the auditors said?
5 A. (Negative head shake.)
6 Q. Did you talk about the process of the audit?
7 A. No, I didn't -- not that I recall, let me
8 say that. Not that I recall.
9 Q. Were there notes taken of that meeting?
10 A. I did not take notes.
11 Q. Who's Joseph Bierbaum?
12 A. Mr. Bierbaum, I believe, owns, and I -- so I
13 should say Mr. Bierbaum, I believe, owns Stone
14 Academy. Mr. Bierbaum also was on the Board of
15 Examiners For Nursing for a short time in 2022.
16 Q. Do you know how he ended up on the Board of
17 Examiners For Nursing?
18 A. I do not.
19 Q. Do you know why he was -- why he left the
20 Board?
21 A. During a Board meeting, the Board
22 chairperson had identified that Mr. Bierbaum had
23 not attended a certain number of meetings. That
24 was publicly said by the Board chairperson.
25 Q. Do you have any -- what role, if any -- and

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1 I want to be careful the way I ask this question
2 so that -- you know, I just want to know if you
3 provided any information or did anything else in
4 connection with the closure of Stone Academy.
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. There is a draft -- well, it's not a draft.
7 There's a signed agreement that Mr. Bierbaum
8 signed on behalf of Stone Academy, and there's a
9 signature, I think the Office of Higher Education,
10 that set out an audit process. Did you play any
11 role in the preparation of -- I don't mean like
12 sitting at your computer typing the agreement, but
13 in determining what would be appropriate for
14 purposes of an audit?
15 A. I believe Dr. Seepersad from the Office of
16 Higher Education may have asked me what
17 information to look at as far as students. And I
18 believe, and I -- I don't recall if this is the
19 inclusive list. I would ask for the student
20 names, when they enrolled in the program, what
21 campus they enrolled in; if it were a day or
22 evening group, and anticipated graduation, I
23 believe was the information that I provided to
24 Dr. Seepersad.
25 MR. SLOSSBERG: All right. Why don't we

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1 take -- let's just take ten minutes, because
2 there's a couple other things. And while we're
3 staying on the record, I do think that what I
4 would like to do -- and this is subject to I have
5 other counsel here representing other parties. I
6 understand that there's another witness who's
7 prepared to testify today. I have other things
8 that I -- documents that I can show this witness
9 that I'd like to ask about. But there are some
10 really central things that I need to ask about
11 that this witness, you know, has testified she
12 doesn't have personal knowledge of. And I'd like
13 to address those with her superior and perhaps we
14 can move this along.
15 So let's take a break. Let me figure
16 out exactly where I am, and then we'll see if we
17 can have an agreement on this going forward, okay?
18 MR. RUTCHICK: All right.
19 (R E C E S S)
20 BY MR. SLOSSBERG:
21 Q. So let's -- I'm going to show you, Ms.
22 Smith, what is a full exhibit at the PJR hearing,
23 Plaintiff's Exhibit 13, and which is your email of
24 December 20th, 2022. Do you recognize it?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. So there's a couple of things it says in
2 here. One, from you, it says "Good afternoon, Ina
3 and I reviewed the copies of the faculty records
4 that Ina and I had copied and had to update the
5 violation letter." Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when there's a reference to the
8 violation letter, what did you mean; what were you
9 referring to?
10 A. The document dated, in this attachment,
11 pages 1, 2, 3 and 4.
12 Q. All right. Well, there was a formal letter
13 that was sent out, right, by the Office of Higher
14 Education, to Stone Academy?
15 Let me show it to you. This is Exhibit 14
16 from the PJR hearing. You see that's an e-mail
17 from Dr. Seepersad to you, dated December 20th,
18 2022?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you see that attached to that -- what
21 he says is "Helen -- Hi, Helen, just an FYI,
22 attached is the compliance conference letter we
23 mailed to Stone Academy today. Your review and
24 reports were invaluable in contributing to this
25 letter." Do you see that?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. So what did you do in connection with
3 preparation of this letter?
4 A. Preparation of the Office of Higher
5 Education letter?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I had provided the Office of Higher
8 Education staff Christine Martinez the violations
9 regarding the visit to the campus at Stone
10 Academy.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I did not create the Office of Higher
13 Education letter.
14 Q. No, you didn't type it. But he refers here
15 to your review. Did you review a draft?
16 A. I did not.
17 Q. Let me just look at this. Are the -- and
18 again, you know, there's eight topics there. Are
19 those all things that you identified as violations
20 of the regs?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. Well, which ones did you
23 provide?
24 A. I believe the statutes, they're referring
25 to. I'm referring to the regulations. So that

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1 would be number 4 has the regulations 20-90- -- I
2 think 48(a)(2)(A). The other regulation is not
3 that.
4 So I could say that the number 4 is the
5 regulations that I am referring to, nursing
6 programs in general requirements, general
7 licensure requirements, general. And then my
8 report to the Office of Higher Education. I did
9 not create the Office of Higher Education letter.
10 Q. Understood. Just that you did note from
11 your -- did you know anything in your
12 investigation regarding attendance recording
13 procedures?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. How about -- let's see, how about instructor
16 qualifications?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So that's number 7. Do you agree?
19 A. That speaks to "The school fails to
20 satisfactorily meet the criteria set forth in
21 Connecticut agencies" -- looks like Connecticut
22 General Statutes 10a-22k(5)(K) and Connecticut
23 General Statute 10a-22b(G)(D). I could not tell
24 you what those statutes are related to.
25 Q. All right. But if I want to know what

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1 judgments you made, I think it's Exhibit 21, from
2 your observations from the 13th and 14th of
3 December that you memorialized, those would be
4 your instances of violations, correct?
5 A. Violations of the regulations, yes.
6 Q. And then if I show you Exhibit -- I'm going
7 to show you 15, another document which is your
8 email. Do you recognize this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what is it?
11 A. This was email to Office of Higher Education
12 Christine Martinez and Sean Seepersad. So on
13 page -- on B, these are violations regarding the
14 attempts to observe clinical experiences. First
15 is the location in Hamden, second is in Cheshire,
16 and last is in New Britain; email from Dr. Pervis
17 regarding the clinical schedules and the
18 instructor; Dr. Pervis on page D, homework that
19 the clinical instructor gave to the students. E
20 is a document I believe that Dr. Pervis provided.
21 F, again, a document that Dr. Pervis provided.
22 Q. And if I can just stop you, those two
23 documents, were those things you requested?
24 A. I requested -- so regarding his information
25 that he sent on December 16th about the instructor

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1 from the Hamden campus that canceled clinical, he
2 identified she did give her students homework to
3 do and I did request that he provide me the
4 homework. So he then forwarded me the homework
5 that the clinical instructor assigned to the
6 students. And that document, on page E and F, I'm
7 not sure if it's front and back or if it's two
8 separate documents, were provided.
9 Q. Okay. And then if you go, I'm just curious,
10 on the page that's designated as H, at the bottom,
11 whose handwriting is that?
12 A. On the bottom is my handwriting. So --
13 Q. And what about the checkmarks; is this a
14 document you worked on?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So what does the handwriting indicate?
17 A. When there was no clinical experience at the
18 Cheshire location, that was supposed to be
19 students from the Waterbury campus. Myself and my
20 colleague, Ina, went out to the Waterbury campus
21 to determine if the Stone Academy Practical
22 Nursing -- I would say management, or people in
23 charge of the program, were updated or aware that
24 the clinical experience was not happening at the
25 Cheshire location. So the email on G was printed

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1 up for me by Stone Academy staff. And that was
2 from the email for the instructor when she had
3 emailed the students directly that there would not
4 be a clinical.
5 H is, I believe, another document that was
6 provided to me by the Stone Academy Practical
7 Nursing kind of person in charge. I don't recall
8 the person's name. There was also, in her office,
9 there was on the wall a whiteboard with names
10 listed on the whiteboard. So the checkoff and the
11 handwritten names on the bottom were what were on
12 the whiteboard.
13 Q. Okay. And so did the checks mean qualify or
14 unqualified?
15 A. The checks just mean that the name was
16 listed from this list and on the whiteboard.
17 That's all it meant.
18 Q. Do you know what -- I don't understand. Do
19 you know what the significance was that there were
20 names on a whiteboard?
21 A. I do not. I asked what the list was, and
22 they said it was their instructor list. So they
23 had provided me this long list of names. And I
24 compared that long list of names with what was
25 on -- the board was behind me, so I turned around

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1 and did a checkmark. And if there was no
2 checkmark, then I wrote "Not on list," and I mean
3 the list that was on the whiteboard, but were one,
4 two -- five names that I added on there.
5 Q. Okay. So just so I know what we're looking
6 at, the names that are not checked, were those
7 folks still employed?
8 A. I do not know. They were not on the list on
9 the whiteboard. That's all I know.
10 Q. I mean, they didn't give you some kind of
11 printout off of the computer system of their
12 employees?
13 A. When I was at the Waterbury campus, my
14 main -- my main reason to go there was to find out
15 if they were aware that the clinical experience
16 had been canceled.
17 Q. Okay. Let me show you what was marked as
18 Plaintiff's 18. It's a full exhibit at the PJR,
19 another email from you.
20 You said earlier that you had provided the
21 regulations. So if you could take a look, is that
22 what you mean, or what you meant, when you said
23 that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the second page of that document, what

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1 is that?
2 A. That's when I discussed, I believe it was
3 earlier, what data I would collect: The student,
4 the campus location. So the required clock hours,
5 classroom and clinical hours of the Practical
6 Nursing Program, and the most -- information about
7 the five-year study. And the five-year study
8 identified there are 940 hours required for
9 classroom; 860 hours were required for clinical
10 experiences. So that's the last information that
11 Stone Academy had provided to the Board, and then
12 the Department kept that hard copy.
13 And also, I would ask him to ask them to
14 provide the acceptable timeframe for a student to
15 complete the Practical Nursing Program in the day
16 group, which is a full-time program, and in the
17 evening group, which is a part-time. And for each
18 student enrolled in the program, the campus
19 location, if they were a day or evening, what
20 group, date of the admission, expected graduation
21 date, classroom hours.
22 And I wrote "Deduct the classroom hours when
23 the staff teaching the class did not meet the
24 minimum requirements according to the Nursing
25 Education Programs and Licensure Requirements

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1 General, 20-90-45 to 20-90-58b regulation, and
2 clinical hours -- clinical experiences hours
3 completed, and deduct the campus clinical hours
4 completed as those hours would not count as
5 clinical experiences according to the
6 regulations."
7 Q. So that's you're responding and you're
8 telling them how to utilize the regulations.
9 You're telling them what's good and not good under
10 the regulations; right?
11 A. Well, some of this is not part of the
12 regulations. For example, the five-year study.
13 Q. I understand. But what you just read to me,
14 at the bottom there, you're telling them -- you're
15 giving them instructions about what is acceptable
16 and not acceptable under the regulations; right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Could you read that again?
19 A. What part do you want me to read again?
20 Q. Okay, I'm just -- this is what it says.
21 "Classroom hours completed. Deduct the classroom
22 hours when the staff teaching the class did not
23 meet the minimum requirements according to the
24 Nursing Education Programs and Licensure
25 Requirements General 20-90-45 to 20-90-58, the

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1 regulations."
2 So you're telling them to deduct the
3 classroom hours, right?
4 A. Well, it says "classroom hours completed."
5 Q. Okay, but --
6 A. So for each student enrolled in the
7 Practical Nursing Program, I asked them -- I
8 provided -- and this is a draft; this is not my
9 final document -- for the classroom hours
10 completed, to deduct the classroom -- so when the
11 staff, when the nursing faculty did not meet the
12 minimum requirements according to the regulations.
13 Q. Okay. But "deduct" is a direction; yes?
14 The word "deduct," you're telling them to deduct;
15 yes?
16 A. It says "deduct." I don't know that I'm
17 directing them they must do it. And, again, this
18 is a draft document.
19 Q. You drafted this document, right?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. You know what the word "deduct" means?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And anybody picking up this document would
24 take this as your guidance, your direction, to
25 deduct the classroom hours, right?

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1 A. I require -- I said to them for each
2 student, the classroom hours that they had
3 completed; and then I did say, "deduct the
4 classroom hours when the staff did not meet the
5 minimum requirements according to the
6 regulations."
7 Q. And you said the same thing, "Clinical
8 experience hours completed, deduct the 'campus
9 clinical hours' completed as those hours would not
10 count as clinical experiences according to the
11 regulations;" right?
12 A. I wrote that, yes.
13 Q. And that was an instruction to them, "This
14 is what you got to do."
15 A. I did not take it as an instruction. I did
16 not say that they must do that. And this is a
17 draft document.
18 Q. And that's fine. But you know, Dr.
19 Seepersad said that he relied on you. He said he
20 relied on you. You were the person who would give
21 instructions about how to interpret the
22 regulations. And that's what you were doing here,
23 right?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. You just don't know?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let me show you what's Exhibit 19, also from
3 the PJR. What is this document?
4 A. It's an email and a draft for Stone Academy
5 audit activities, a list of 25 items.
6 Q. And you see Dr. Seepersad sends this to
7 Commissioner -- I don't know if that's Larson, and
8 Dan Shapiro at the AG's Office and you're copied
9 on that email?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And it says "Attached is list of items
12 Helen" -- that's you, right?
13 A. That is me.
14 Q. -- Alina, Christine and I have come up with
15 for the audit. Let me now if there's any
16 additional feedback." Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So what input did you give with regard to
19 coming up with this list?
20 A. I believe that was the input regarding the
21 program type, number 2; campus location; original
22 anticipated graduation -- oh, excuse me, not 5.
23 That's says "specified in the enrollment
24 agreement."
25 So it would be campus location where the

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1 student had attended classes, one; program type;
2 8, "List of all instructors, including those who
3 are no longer employed but have taught active
4 students and denote if they were qualified to
5 teach per Department of Public Health regulation
6 at the time of instruction;" total number of
7 classroom hours -- that says "Determine from
8 attendance records." No, I did not provide that
9 as "Determine by attendance records."
10 "Total number of classrooms taught by
11 unqualified instructors; list clinical experiences
12 taken for each, name of instructor, number of
13 hours and semester and number of year," --
14 Q. What about 12, --
15 A. -- "if applicable."
16 Q. -- "Adjusted classroom hours determined by
17 the total classroom hours minus the total
18 classroom hours taught by unqualified
19 instructors"?
20 A. This is not my list. This is Dr. Seepersad.
21 So I don't --
22 Q. But that wasn't my question. My question
23 was, on the cover sheet, it says, you know, that
24 you participated in coming up with this list. And
25 my question to you is what input did you have?

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1 12, "Adjusted classroom hours determined by the
2 total classroom hours minus the total classroom
3 hours taught by unqualified instructors." Is that
4 one of the things that you indicated?
5 A. The classroom hours completed, yes. So I
6 would not say "adjusted classroom hours." The
7 classroom hours would be completed and the
8 classroom hours taught by hours -- by unqualified
9 instructors, but not adjusted classroom hours.
10 Q. We just looked at your -- the previous
11 documents, where you said "deduct," right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. So isn't that deducting?
14 A. I could not say if "adjusted" means
15 exclusively deducting.
16 Q. Hmm. What else on here did you have input
17 on?
18 A. List of clinical experiences, I'm not sure
19 about the word choices here, "taken and for each,
20 name of instructor, number of hours and semester
21 number and year, if applicable." But clinical
22 experiences, I did provide guidance to have the
23 clinical hours that were completed.
24 Q. What else?
25 A. "Any clinical experiences which the ratio of

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1 students was -- student to instructor was greater
2 than 10 to one."
3 Q. Anything else?
4 A. "Total number of clinical experience hours
5 taught by unqualified instructors."
6 Q. Anything else?
7 A. "Total number of clinical experiences
8 taught -- experience hours taught as quote,
9 unquote, campus clinical hours."
10 That would be it.
11 Q. Okay. And I showed you earlier the summary
12 of the audit report where it said "Per DPH." So
13 this explains at least a portion of the input by
14 DPH in connection with the ultimate audit; yes?
15 MR. HEALY: I'm going to object to the
16 form of the question.
17 A. This is not my document. I did not author
18 this document, so I can't say that shows -- what
19 it shows.
20 Q. Well, you just identified topics that you
21 had input at the meeting.
22 A. I had input.
23 Q. Yeah.
24 A. Provided information on.
25 Q. Well, you also gave instructions on certain

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1 things relating to Department of Public Health
2 regulations; yes?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. 20. What's the audit tool? Here, let me
6 show you. Here's Exhibit 20. And that, on page
7 2, you write to Dr. Seepersad, "I was thinking
8 that the audit tool should be more detailed.
9 Please review the revised tool." What is that?
10 A. I think for my -- so this was January 12th.
11 In my email on January 10th, I use that word
12 "audit tool" for information, my draft that was
13 sent to Dr. Seepersad. That's what I am referring
14 to. So this information.
15 Q. Okay. And then if you look at the last
16 email, this says January 12th, second to last,
17 1:41 p.m., from you to Dr. Seepersad, "Updated
18 Audit Tool." And you say "Hi, Sean, thanks for
19 that comprehensive audit document. I would add 9,
20 Practical Nursing (PN) Programs are not per
21 semester. They are usually per term (that is the
22 word that Stone Academy uses.) And 13, I would
23 use the clinical experiences which is in
24 accordance with the regulations," and you cite the
25 regulation. Yes?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So those were specific things that you
3 corrected in the list; yes?
4 A. That's what additional information I
5 provided to him.
6 Q. And he was relying on that, right?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Okay, and then let's look at Exhibit 23,
9 which is also from the PJR. What is this
10 document?
11 A. It's an email to Dr. Seepersad at OHE, with
12 an attached list of Stone Academy
13 instructors/faculty regarding the nursing faculty
14 for Stone Academy.
15 Q. All right. And this was your conclusion as
16 to who was and was not qualified; yes?
17 A. This was, according to the regulation, who
18 qualified and who did not qualify.
19 Q. Your conclusion according to the regulations
20 as to who was qualified and who wasn't qualified?
21 A. These were the people that did not qualify
22 according to the regulations. It was not my
23 conclusion. It was comparison of the data to the
24 regulation.
25 Q. So, well, you know, I really don't want to

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1 belabor the point. But you actually had to do
2 something. You had to go look at the regulations
3 and look at the qualifications. And you had to
4 decide for each person whether they were
5 qualified; yes?
6 A. I reviewed the actual the hard copy file in
7 comparison with the regulations and ensured that
8 each person met the qualifications. If they did
9 not meet the qualifications, it was not in
10 accordance with the regulations. That's what the
11 list is. These are people who, according to the
12 regulations, did not -- were not qualified to
13 teach in the Practical Nursing Program.
14 Q. By the way, you, as a person at the DPH,
15 were the one who was responsible for doing that
16 analysis; correct?
17 A. I was, with my colleague, Ina Erlik, who
18 also reviewed files. It was both of us reviewing
19 the files.
20 MR. SLOSSBERG: We had had a
21 conversation off the record. I do want to keep
22 the deposition open. There are lots of topics
23 here that the witness indicated she could testify
24 to, and I think that that's spotty, at best. And
25 I do want to talk with, who is it Mr. --

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1 MR. RUTCHICK: Andresen.
2 MR. SLOSSBERG: -- Andresen, about things
3 that I have raised here that the witness does not
4 have knowledge or can't speak to.
5 My understanding is that the AG's Office
6 on behalf of the witness may have some questions,
7 and then counsel for the defendants in our action.
8 But, again, I'm going to keep it open and then
9 let's bring in Andresen and see how we do, okay?
10 MR. RUTCHICK: We're waiting on Mr.
11 Andresen for the moment?
12 MR. SLOSSBERG: Let's stay on the
13 record. I thought the idea was that you would be
14 able to ask some clarifying --
15 MR. RUTCHICK: Right.
16 MR. SLOSSBERG: -- questions. Counsel
17 for the defendants would ask whatever questions
18 they want on topics we've covered.
19 MR. RUTCHICK: Right.
20 MR. SLOSSBERG: And we would leave the
21 deposition open and just move to Mr. Andresen. I
22 just want to make sure everybody agrees with that.
23 We did discuss it.
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. HEALY:

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1 Q. Good morning, Ms. Smith.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. My name is James Healy. I'm an attorney
4 representing Stone Academy. I believe we've met
5 before virtually.
6 I have a few questions for you here based on
7 what Attorney Slossberg asked you. If I could ask
8 you to refer to the PJR Exhibit 19, which is the
9 audit. And I wanted to direct you back to page 8.
10 If I understand your testimony with Attorney
11 Slossberg, Ms. Smith, it's that you may have been
12 the person at DPH who provided the information
13 indicated under Section 2. Did I understand that
14 correctly?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are you aware of any -- and I believe you
17 also testified that there was no regulation that
18 required a clinical attendance sheet. Did I
19 understand that correctly?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you aware of any other statute or source
22 of authority that would require a clinical
23 attendance sheet?
24 A. I am not. I do not know of any other
25 authority or statute that would require a clinical

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1 attendance sheet.
2 Q. Okay. So I gather you're not aware of any
3 other source of authority that would require a
4 clinical attendance sheet; right?
5 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of anything.
6 Q. Under Section 2, there's an A through G
7 criteria. Do you see that, Ms. Smith?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let's start with subsection A, the total
10 number of students in attendance. I think I know
11 the answer based on your answers to the previous
12 questions, but let me ask it.
13 Are you aware of any statute, regulation or
14 other source of authority that would require Stone
15 Academy to maintain information related to the
16 total number of students in attendance at a
17 clinic?
18 A. In the regulations, there is a ratio of one
19 instructor to 10 students in a clinical setting.
20 But there's no requirement to maintain
21 documentation of that. But there's a regulation
22 that speaks to the ratio.
23 Q. So just to make sure I understand that
24 answer, Ms. Smith, your answer is there is not any
25 source of authority that requires the maintenance

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1 of that information, right?
2 A. In the regulation does not have any --
3 there's nothing that says they must document it.
4 Q. And you offered, I believe, the regulations
5 do have a student/faculty ration, maybe section
6 48, I may not be remembering offhand, but is that
7 the regulation you had in mind with your previous
8 answer?
9 A. Yes. I don't know the section. I literally
10 would have to pull out the regulations and review
11 them, --
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. -- but there is a ratio.
14 Q. Maybe we'll do that in a moment, but let me
15 get through the rest of these criteria.
16 Subsection B is "Student in time, student
17 out time." Am I correct Ms. Smith that there is
18 no statute, regulation or other source of
19 authority that would have required Stone Academy
20 to maintain documentation of that information for
21 a clinical session?
22 MR. SLOSSBERG: I'm just going to object
23 to the form.
24 MR. HEALY: What was unclear? I'm happy
25 to remedy it.

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1 MR. SLOSSBERG: Well, you said "any."
2 And I think the witness probably has some limited
3 knowledge, so --
4 Q. I'll ask it this way: Can you identify any
5 source of authority that would require Stone
6 Academy to maintain information related to student
7 in time or student out time for a clinical
8 session?
9 A. No, I could not.
10 Q. Subsection C, "Course location," do you see
11 that, Ms. Smith?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you aware of any source of authority
14 that would require Stone Academy to maintain
15 information related to the course location for a
16 clinical session?
17 A. No, I am not.
18 Q. Subsection D is "Course date." Do you see
19 that, Ms. Smith?
20 A. Yes.
23 documentation or information related to the course
24 date for a clinical session?
25 A. No, I'm not.

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1 Q. Subsection E, "Course instructors," do you
2 see that, Ms. Smith?
3 A. Yes.
6 information or documentation related to course
7 instructors for a clinical session?
8 A. No, I am not.
9 Q. Subsection F is "Course name." Do you see
10 that, Ms. Smith?
11 A. Yes.
14 documentation or information related to the course
15 name for a clinical session?
16 A. No, I am not.
17 Q. Subsection G, "Student name." Do you see
18 that, Ms. Smith?
19 A. Yes, I do.
21 that would have required Stone Academy to maintain
22 documentation or information related to student
23 name in a clinical session?
24 A. No, I am not.
25 Q. Are you aware of any source of authority,

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1 Ms. Smith, that would have required Stone Academy
2 to keep attendance at all for a credit hour
3 program?
4 A. I'm not. But the regulations do speak to
5 the minimum hours that a student must complete for
6 a Practical Nursing Program, which is 1500 hours,
7 50 percent in clinical and 50 percent in class.
8 But I am not aware of any documentation necessary.
9 Q. So we do agree, then, I guess, that there is
10 no source of authority that requires tracking of
11 attendance, --
12 MR. SLOSSBERG: Objection.
13 Q. -- right?
14 MR. SLOSSBERG: Objection to form.
16 A. Yes, I would agree with that.
17 Q. If we go to page 12 of that document, under
18 subsection 2 here, Ms. Smith, the various criteria
19 are the same ones we talked about on page 8 a
20 moment ago; would you agree with me about that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And if I were to ask you questions
23 about the source of authority for any of those
24 subsections, would you give me the same answers
25 that you gave me a moment ago?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If we look at subsection 1, "Per Department
3 of Health," do you see that section, Ms. Smith?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it the position of the Department of
6 Public Health that if one or more of the fields in
7 a clinical student attendance sheet is incomplete,
8 that the hours should be classified as invalid?
9 A. No.
10 Q. That is not DPH's position?
11 A. It is not.
12 Q. So is this aspect of the audit incorrect?
13 A. I did not write the audit, so I do not know
14 if it is correct to the person who authored it.
15 But what it states, if some of the
16 documentation -- "one or more of the fields within
17 a clinical student attendance occurrence was
18 incomplete, the hours for that student in the
19 clinical session were classified as invalid," I
20 don't know if that's accurate to them. But
21 there's no requirement that documentation be
22 recorded for attendance in a clinical experience.
23 So I don't know if it is correct to them. I could
24 not speak for the author of the document.
25 Q. But if I understand that answer correctly,

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1 it is not correct to you?
2 A. Correct. As in my years of observing
3 clinical experiences, I had observed these --
4 some, attendance sheets. And sometimes the
5 information was not accurate. It does not mean
6 that I was not observing a clinical experience. I
7 absolutely was observing a clinical experience.
8 Q. And in those examples where some of that
9 information was incomplete, it did not mean the
10 student was not completing the clinical
11 experience, correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And I suppose if we go down to let's say
14 subsection 2B on that same page, "Student sign-in
15 and sign-out times were missing," do you see that,
16 Ms. Smith?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I gather you'd agree with me that just
19 because sign-in or sign-out time was missing, does
20 not mean that that student didn't in fact attend
21 that clinical session, right?
22 A. I agree.
23 Q. And same thing for subsection C, would you
24 agree with me, Ms. Smith, that just because the
25 location of a clinical course is either missing or

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1 illegible on a clinical attendance sheet does not
2 mean that that clinical session didn't happen,
3 right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And if the date of the clinical course is
6 missing or illegible on a clinical attendance
7 sheet, would you agree with me that that does not
8 mean that the clinical session did not happen on
9 that date; correct?
10 A. I agree.
11 Q. Would you agree with me as well that if the
12 course instructor's name is missing or illegible
13 on a clinical attendance sheet, that that does not
14 mean that no instructor was present during the
15 clinical session?
16 A. It does not mean that.
17 Q. And the same with the missing course name.
18 The absence of a course name from a clinical
19 attendance sheet does not mean that that clinical
20 session did not happen, right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. In terms of subsection A, it reports "The
23 instructor to student ratio was greater than 10 to
24 one." Do you see that, Ms. Smith?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Am I correct that a student in a clinical
2 session can still learn the material in that
3 clinical session, even if he or she is alongside
4 10 or 11 or 12 other students?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. They might still learn the information,
7 right?
8 A. I don't know. The regulation is that's the
9 ratio, the regulation. I don't know what the
10 student would learn.
11 Q. I understand your position is that the
12 regulation requires a 10 to one student ration. I
13 understand that, Ms. Smith.
14 My question is, from DPH's perspective, as
15 the witness most knowledgeable for DPH here, is it
16 DPH's position that a student in a clinical
17 experience with a student -- an instructor to
18 student ratio greater than 10 to one, is incapable
19 of learning the information taught during that
20 clinical experience?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Let's go to Exhibit -- I'm sorry, page 15 of
23 the same exhibit, Ms. Smith.
24 If I understood your testimony with Attorney
25 Slossberg on this topic a few moments ago, it was

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1 that you were the person who provided a list of
2 these 124 instructors; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And am I correct that that list was limited
5 to nursing faculty?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So am I also correct that DPH did not
8 purport to take any positions on the
9 qualifications necessary for general education
10 instructors at Stone Academy?
11 A. We just reviewed the nursing faculty that
12 the regulations speak to.
13 Q. When did you provide that list of
14 instructors to -- did you provide it to the
15 auditor?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. When did you do that?
19 Q. Am I correct that that list of instructors
20 was not provided to Stone Academy before it
21 closed?
22 A. Could you repeat the question?
23 Q. This list of instructors that you provided
24 to the auditor, I understand you can't recall the
25 exact date you provided it to the author.

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1 My question is, am I correct that that list
2 was not provided to Stone Academy prior to its
3 closure?
4 A. Correct.
5 May I just add, I -- you're asking me if I
6 provided it. I did not provide it. I don't know
7 if anybody else provided it to Stone Academy, but
8 I did not provide that to Stone Academy.
9 Q. Are you aware that someone else at DPH did
10 provide it to Stone Academy --
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. -- prior to its closure?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. And you did not.
15 A. I did not.
16 Q. And you were the person who ultimately
17 provided it to the auditor at an unknown time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Let go to page 16 of that same exhibit,
20 please, Ms. Smith.
21 Again, I think I know the answer to this
22 based on the previous questions we discussed, but
23 I do need to ask you. Subsection C provides that
24 "Relevant attendance sheet had a blank or
25 unidentifiable instructor name classified as

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1 unqualified per DPH."
2 Is it DPH's position that a blank or
3 unidentifiable instructor name on an attendance
4 sheet invalidates that clinical experience?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So is subsection 1C incorrect?
7 A. Again, I did not author the document, so I
8 can't say if the author -- if it was correct to
9 the author whether there was relevant attendance
10 sheet had blank or unidentified instructor name.
11 Q. My question was, I gather you -- let's back
12 up.
13 I understood from your previous answer that
14 you did not agree that that should invalidate the
15 clinical experience; right?
16 A. I agree with that.
17 Q. So to the extent the auditor invalidated 452
18 occurrences on that basis, DPH would not agree
19 with that, correct?
20 A. Say that again. Or repeat the question.
21 MR. HEALY: Would you mind reading that
22 one back? I don't know if I can recapture it.
24 A. Would not agree with the invalidation, is
25 that what the question is? Yes.

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1 Q. And same question for subsection D in that
2 list, Ms. Smith. "Instructor name was identified,
3 but qualification of instructor was unknown/could
4 not be determined, classified as unqualified per
5 DPH." Did I read that correctly, Ms. Smith?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is that the position of DPH?
8 A. So "The instructor name was identified, but
9 qualification of the instructor was unknown or
10 could not be determined." And that then in
11 parentheses "classified as unqualified per DPH."
12 I don't know that if the instructor name was
13 not identified or qualification was known or could
14 not be determined, would come out as that the
15 instructor was unqualified.
16 Q. Are you finished with your answer, Ms.
17 Smith?
18 A. Yes, I'm sorry.
19 Q. Let me ask this way, this might be more
20 helpful. Is it DPH -- if the auditor invalidated
21 295 occurrences on the basis that the instructor
22 name was identified, but the qualification of the
23 instructor was unknown or could not be determined,
24 does DPH disagree with that conclusion?
25 A. I don't know, because I would not know

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1 the -- there are qualifications for an instructor.
2 So I don't know if they would be qualified or not
3 qualified, because -- if the information is not
4 provided according to the regulations. And if
5 that's how the auditors came about it, then that's
6 how they came about. But I would not know if the
7 instructor was qualified.
8 Q. So in your view, that would not be a basis
9 to invalidate 295 occurrences?
10 A. It may not be a base.
11 Q. I gather you'd agree with me, along the
12 lines of a topic we discussed a few moments ago,
13 just because an instructor's qualification is
14 unknown or cannot be determined, does not mean
15 that that instructor was unqualified?
16 A. It does not mean that.
17 Q. And if that instructor was indeed qualified,
18 there would be no basis to invalidate that
19 clinical experience, correct?
20 A. Correct, if they were qualified.
21 Q. Let's move to the next page, Ms. Smith, page
22 17.
23 Subsection B talks about students who
24 attended a clinical course that was taught on
25 campus. Do you see that, Ms. Smith?

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1 A. I do.
2 Q. And in subsection I below that, it says
3 "Pursuant to DPH commissioner's order dated August
4 14, 2020, virtual clinical experiences for up to
5 25 percent of in-person clinical experiences are
6 allowed from August 14, 2020 to September 30th,
7 2021." Did I read that correctly?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you aware of that DPH commissioner's
10 order?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And am I correct that that order expired on
13 September 30th, 2021?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Does DPH take the position that that order
16 was inapplicable to Stone Academy at any point
17 prior to September 30th, 2021?
18 A. That it was applicable? Stone Academy would
19 have been able to follow the commissioner's order
20 from that time period.
21 Q. And they would have been able to follow that
22 until September 30th, 2021?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Am I correct that the approved Stone Academy
25 program provided for 816 hours of clinical work?

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1 A. I believe that in one of these documents we
2 just discussed that the last five-year study -- I
3 don't know they talk about number off the top of
4 my head, but in the five-year study that was
5 provided in 2021, it had that information.
6 Q. Ms. Smith, I'm just going to ask you a few
7 more questions on this and then I'll move on.
8 Would you agree with me that that audit does
9 not revoke any student's credit?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. How about this: Mr. Seepersad testified
13 that this audit did not revoke any student's
14 credit. Do you have any basis to disagree with
15 that assertion?
17 A. I don't know. I don't have anything to do
18 with credits, so I could not answer. So I do not
19 know.
20 Q. And maybe you won't know the answer to this
21 question, but just to make sure it's not sort of
22 in your bailiwick as opposed to somebody else's,
23 are you aware of any authority for revoking any
24 student's credit earned at an approved program?
25 A. I am not aware, no.

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1 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, I believe it was
2 Exhibit 21 from the PJR hearing. I believe you
3 talked about that a few moments ago with Attorney
4 Slossberg. Do you have that document in front of
5 you?
6 MR. RUTCHICK: The January 13th email?
7 MR. HEALY: That's correct.
8 A. Here we go.
9 Q. Do you have that if front of you, Ms. Smith?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Could you please turn to -- I believe it's
12 denominated as page B of that exhibit. The top of
13 it says "Department of Public Health onsite visits
14 to Stone Academy." Do you have that page, Ms.
15 Smith?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If I can direct your attention to subsection
18 2, violation of 20-90-55(c). Do you see that
19 section?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Am I correct, Ms. Smith, that both
22 supervised direct clinical care experiences and
23 observational experiences appropriate to the
24 program's educational outcome count toward that
25 750 hours in that regulation?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And down below, under 2A, subsection one, it
3 says "Review of the attendance sheet or clinical,
4 and the clinical site roster sheets for these 37
5 students dated 12/13/2022, identified," and then
6 it goes on to list several features. Do you see
7 that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I think we explored this before, and I
10 just want to ask the questions so we can move on.
11 We all agree that no attendance sheet was required
12 under any regulation or other source of
13 authority --
14 MR. SLOSSBERG: Objection.
15 Q. -- for any clinical session, right?
17 A. There is no requirement for attendance
18 sheets, according to the regulations.
19 Q. And there's no requirement under any other
20 source of authority that you are aware, correct?
21 A. Not that I'm aware of.
22 Q. Subsection 3 over on page C of that exhibit,
23 it begins "Violation of 20-90-51(b)(3)(B)," do you
24 see that Ms. Smith?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Is that the provision of the regulations on
2 which you were relying for your observations about
3 the qualifications of those faculty members?
4 A. Observations and review of the faculty
5 files.
6 Q. But I have the right regulation in mind?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. I'll turn to that regulation in a
9 moment, but before we do, if I could just direct
10 your attention to page F of that exhibit.
11 Do you have that page in front of you, Ms.
12 Smith?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Am I correct that those three instances form
15 the basis for your finding, or your belief, I
16 should say, that Stone Academy violated
17 20-90-55(c)?
18 A. That is part of -- the violation was the
19 quote, unquote, campus clinical and the
20 cancelation, so I did not observe any clinical
21 experiences. So that's not exclusively to the
22 violation, this page F. There's also the
23 information on page B.
24 Q. About your review of the attendance sheet?
25 A. No. Two, "Violation, Stone Academy, a

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1 violation of 20-90-55(c). From 2/11/2022 to
2 12/13/2022, Stone Academy failed to provide
3 students with clinical experiences in that they
4 counted campus clinical experiences as clinical
5 hours."
6 Q. Okay. So your basis for -- let me ask you
7 this way: The basis for the observations you make
8 are limited to this document. There's nothing
9 outside this document on which you relied?
10 A. No, there are other things outside the
11 document. Stone Academy provided a list of
12 clinical -- the clinical schedules for when I
13 presented onsite for each of their campuses, for
14 East Hartford, Waterbury and West Haven. So those
15 documents also reflected campus clinicals. In
16 fact, they may have used that word or they may
17 have used other words, but the quote, unquote,
18 clinical location for the clinical experience was
19 at an address like 745, I believe it's Main
20 Street -- it's not Main Street -- Burnside in East
21 Hartford, which was the campus for East Hartford.
22 So it's not exclusive to these observations or
23 what I heard from people and what I observed
24 myself. There's other documents.
25 Q. And if we go back to page F here, at the end

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1 of this exhibit, you write "Stone Academy failed
2 to provide students with the required hours of
3 clinical experiences in the clinical instructor's
4 canceled clinical experience." Did I read that
5 correctly?
6 A. You did.
7 Q. And I gather from your testimony here that
8 that observation is based on the three items
9 referenced below on that page, as well as the
10 observations you pointed out to me a moment ago in
11 Section 2 on page B. Am I correct about that, Ms.
12 Smith?
13 A. The violation on F says that the instructors
14 canceled the clinical experiences. On B, it is
15 violation of the same regulation 20-90-55(c). And
16 that is what I observed at the clinical location,
17 what was told to me by staff. So they are both
18 violations of 20-90-55(c).
19 Q. And 20-90-55(c), is that the one that you
20 believe requires 750 hours of supervised direct
21 clinical care experiences and observational
22 experiences?
23 A. I believe so. I would have to look at the
24 regulations.
25 Q. And I think we agreed a moment ago that

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1 Stone Academy's program provided for 860 hours;
2 correct?
3 A. Again, I could not -- the five-year study
4 had the last hours for both classroom and
5 clinical. I could not tell you off the top of my
6 head what that was.
7 Q. And the observations you make on page B
8 under subsection 2 relate to the dates February
9 11th to February -- I'm sorry, let me move on.
10 I will -- let me mark, I think it myself be
11 easier to just -- I want to ask you some
12 questions about the regulations. They're attached
13 to -- they're attached to one of the exhibits, but
14 I think it might be easier to just introduce them
15 as an exhibit.
16 MR. SLOSSBERG: They're attached to --
17 MR. HEALY: You can use them if you
18 like.
19 MR. SLOSSBERG: -- the ones that were
20 sent over, right?
21 MR. HEALY: I want to say it's --
22 MR. SLOSSBERG: Here, it's a exhibit.
23 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1 FOR
24 IDENTIFICATION, Received and Marked.)
25 MR. SLOSSBERG: All right, so I can look

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1 on the other exhibit, which is Exhibit 18.
2 MR. HEALY: Oh, I'm sorry, if you'd like
3 originals, David --
4 MR. SLOSSBERG: No, that's fine. I'm
5 good.
6 By MR. HEALY:
7 Q. And I just have a few questions about these
8 regulations, Ms. Smith, and then I think we can
9 move on to the other witness.
10 MR. HEALY: If I don't say it at the
11 end, I will exercise the same position as Attorney
12 Slossberg in terms of leaving the deposition open.
13 Q. Let's refer, if we may, Ms. Smith, to
14 section 20-90-48. I believe it's on page 7 of
15 that set that we just introduced as Defendant's 1.
16 Do you have that provision in front of you,
17 Ms. Smith?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And if I could direct your attention to
20 section -- or I guess I should say subsection
21 (a)(2)(A), "The overall faculty/student ratio
22 shall be no less than one clinical faculty member
23 for every 10 students engaged in direct clinical
24 care experiences."
25 Did I read that correctly, Ms. Smith?

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1 A. No, it says "direct client care experience,"
2 not "direct clinical care experience."
3 Q. Thank you. With that correction, is that
4 the correct reading --
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. -- of the provision? Thank you, Ms. Smith,
7 appreciate that.
8 Is that the faculty/student ratio that you
9 mentioned a few moments ago in one of your
10 answers?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. I'd like to direct your attention
13 down to subsection (a)(2)(C). I'll see if I can
14 read it correctly this time, but please do point
15 it out if I miss a word.
16 "Upon written request from the program
17 director, the Board may, within its discretion and
18 after reviewing merits of the request, provide a
19 temporary exception from the mandated
20 faculty/student ratio."
21 Did I read that correctly, Ms. Smith?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And am I correct in understanding the Board
24 has discretion to grant exceptions to the
25 faculty/student ratio?

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1 A. That's what the regulation states.
2 Q. When an exception occurs, Ms. Smith, am I
3 correct that a student who has completed a
4 clinical session with a faculty/student ratio
5 higher than 10 to one, is permitted to practice as
6 a practical nurse?
8 A. I believe that it would depend what the
9 Board -- so it says that the Board may provide a
10 temporary exception from the mandated
11 faculty/student ratio. So they're still a
12 student. So it would depend on what the Board's
13 decision would be to that school request. But
14 they are not a practical nurse. They're a
15 student. So this is related to the
16 faculty/student ratio.
17 Q. Let's think of the question this way; I
18 think maybe this is easier.
19 If a student completes a clinical experience
20 under a temporary exception granted in the Board's
21 discretion that permitted a faculty/student ratio
22 higher than 10 to one, completed the program and
23 passed the NCLEX, that student would be able to be
24 licensed as a practical nurse, correct?

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1 A. I could not answer if they would be able to
2 be licensed as a practical nurse. I do not know.
3 Q. Other than the licensure, are you able to
4 offer any response to the rest of that question,
5 Ms. Smith?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I guess what I'm driving at is the
8 faculty/student ratio is not necessarily a defect
9 in a student's education. Can we agree about
10 that?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. If the Board of Examiners For Nursing has
13 the discretion to grant a temporary exception to
14 the faculty/student ratio, and permit a student to
15 complete an educational experience in an
16 environment with a faculty/student ratio that
17 exceeds 10 to one, can we agree that a student can
18 still learn the information needed in that
19 session?
20 A. I do not --
23 Q. Are you aware of the Board exercising its
24 discretion to provide any temporary exceptions
25 from the mandated faculty/student ratio in

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1 Practical Nursing Programs, Ms. Smith?
3 Q. Let's go to section 20-90-51, it's over on
4 page 9.
5 Do you see that's entitled "Nursing
6 Faculty," Ms. Smith?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. We talked a few moments ago about nurse
9 faculty versus general education faculty. Am I
10 correct that this provision sets forth the
11 qualifications required for nursing faculty
12 members as opposed to general education faculty?
13 A. The regulations speak to nursing faculty.
14 Q. Do you know if there's a regulation that
15 speaks to requirements -- or, I'm sorry,
16 qualifications for any general education faculty
17 members?
19 Q. And if the auditor were to have purported to
20 invalidate any credits earned by a student on the
21 basis that they're -- for example, their math
22 instructor did not have a nursing degree, I take
23 it you would disagree with that conclusion, right,
24 Ms. Smith?
25 A. I only review the nursing faculty. I could

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1 not give any information on any other faculty.
2 Q. And you're not aware of any basis to
3 invalidate, for example, a math course taught by
4 somebody without a nursing degree, correct?
5 A. I don't know. The qualifications for the
6 regulations speak to the nursing faculty and
7 that's exclusively what I review.
8 Q. Let's look at subsection C of that
9 provision, Ms. Smith. It's entitled
10 "Grandfathering." Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Am I correct that at the time this
13 regulation was adopted, any faculty member at a
14 program who held a Master's degree in any field
15 was considered to be qualified?
16 A. Repeat the question? And we're talking
17 about 20-91 -- 20-90-51, is it large C, under (a)?
18 Q. Small (c). "Grandfathering."
19 A. Oh, "Grandfathering," okay.
20 Q. Am I correct, Ms. Smith, that at the time
21 this regulation was adopted, any faculty member
22 employed in a nursing education program who held a
23 Master's degree in any field was considered
24 qualified?
25 A. I don't know.

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1 Q. Do you have any basis to disagree with that
2 provision?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. You don't know whether you have any basis --
5 A. I don't --
6 Q. -- to disagree with that provision?
7 A. I do not know.
8 Q. Okay. Subsection (c)(2) below provides that
9 that qualification remains in place even if that
10 faculty member changes jobs. Any basis to
11 disagree with that, Ms. Smith?
12 A. I don't know that I would disagree with the
13 regulations, but I don't know the -- I don't have
14 a response.
15 Q. Let me ask it this way: Is it correct that
16 the Board can grant a temporary waiver?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Have you had occasion to work on a temporary
19 waiver before?
20 A. Yes. Many.
21 Q. Is it something that frequently occurs?
22 A. Frequently, yes.
23 Q. And am I correct that when that occurs, the
24 Board has discretion to grant a temporary waiver
25 of the requirements of subdivision (b)(2) and

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1 (b)(3) -- and/or (b)(3), for an individual up to
2 two years?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Am I also correct that the Board can do that
5 for circumstances that include, but are not
6 limited to, an unexpected resignation of a faculty
7 member, an extended illness of a faculty member,
8 or a school being unable to hire a faculty member
9 despite advertising for that position?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Am I also correct, Ms. Smith, that there are
12 other bases on which a Board could grant a
13 temporary waiver if it chose to?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let's move to subsection (e) of the same
16 provision. It's on the next page, it's entitled
17 "Permanent Waiver." Do you see that, Ms. Smith?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Am I correct as well that the Board has
20 discretion to grant a permanent individual waiver
21 of subsection (b)(2) for a faculty member?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you agree with me, Ms. Smith, that a
24 student who has completed a course taught by a
25 faculty member, who is the subject of either a

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1 temporary or permanent waiver, can still learn the
2 information taught by that instructor in that
3 class?
4 A. I don't know. I don't know what the student
5 can learn.
6 Q. But based on these regulations, it's not
7 essential that a faculty member hold the
8 qualifications set forth in subsection (b),
9 correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Because the Board allows for exceptions to
12 those qualification provisions, doesn't it?
13 A. It does.
14 Q. And it allows students to learn in
15 educational environments with faculty members that
16 don't meet the requirements of subsection (b).
17 Correct?
18 A. I don't know what they learn, but they are
19 allowed to teach in the nursing program with a
20 waiver approved by the Board, Board approval.
21 Q. Understood. And students are allowed to
22 attend classes with those individuals, correct?
23 A. Yes, they are.
24 Q. And students are allowed to complete their
25 education and rely on some credit earned in those

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1 classes, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if a student then passes the NCLEX exam,
4 that student can practice as a practical nurse,
5 correct?
6 A. They would have to get a license as a --
7 practical license, practical nurse.
8 Q. Let's ask is it this way: A student who
9 learns in that experience can graduate from a
10 program in reliance on those credits, right?
11 A. Is that faculty who are waived?
12 Q. The student who undergoes -- who completes
13 one or more courses with a faculty member that is
14 either grandfathered in or holds a temporary or
15 permanent waiver or exception in those
16 requirements; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. A student who earns that credit can apply it
19 towards completion of his or her program, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And if upon completion and successful
22 passage of the NCLEX, the State of Connecticut
23 provides them with a license, he or she can then
24 practice as a licensed practical nurse, right?
25 A. They could.

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1 MR. HEALY: I think that's all I have
2 for now. I will exercise the same right as
3 brother counsel and leave this deposition open for
4 other topics pending whatever we're able to lean
5 from Mr. Andresen today.
6 MR. KLEIN: If I can jump in, Seth Klein
7 on behalf of Joseph Bierbaum and Richard
8 Scheinberg as Trustee. To save time, I will not
9 be asking any questions now. But I just want to
10 put on the record that we similarly are leaving
11 the deposition open and reserving our rights
12 pending ongoing developments.
13 MR. McDONALD: And we'll make the same
14 notation on behalf of Mark Scheinberg, no
15 questions at this time, but we'll leave it open.
16 MR. RUTCHICK: That's it on that side?
17 All right. Can we take two minutes?
18 (R E C E S S)
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. RUTCHICK:
21 Q. I just want to touch base on one thing.
22 Well, not true; a couple things.
23 Since the regulations were spoken to last,
24 Defendant's 1, we were talking about the waiver,
25 the waivers that were available to the faculty

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1 credentials requirements. Do you recall that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I'm taking a look at regulation
4 20-90-51 subsection (a). Can you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what is -- what, if anything, does that
7 have to do with -- that provision have to do with
8 our discussion earlier about the credentialing
9 that's required?
10 A. That the faculty and program administrator
11 must have been active -- maintain an active RN
12 licensure in Connecticut. So during the five-year
13 study, I do randomly evaluate -- again,
14 randomly -- that they have a active RN license in
15 Connecticut, just checking that.
16 Q. Okay. So we'll touch base on that a little
17 bit more in a moment. But what about the waiver
18 provisions. Do you see where it says (d)(1)?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You can waive the educational requirements
21 of (b)(2) and (b)(3). Can they actually waive the
22 RN licensure requirement?
23 A. Looks like the educational requirements of
24 this section.
25 Q. Are you aware of any instance in which the

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1 Board of Examiners For Nursing has granted a
2 faculty waiver for not being required to possess
3 an active RN licensure?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And back to the five-year study, I want to
6 talk a little bit about that.
7 Now, earlier today, you recall you said
8 there was some discussion about what you do to
9 authenticate the information that you have
10 obtained. And, for example, just a moment ago,
11 you said you did, and you also, I believe, spoke
12 to that earlier today, you talked about doing a
13 random sample of the faculty to determine whether
14 they have the RN licensure; is that correct?
15 A. Correct, an active RN license.
16 Q. Can you give me other examples -- well, let
17 me just -- let me just go about it this way. Do
18 you actually take a look at their -- strike that.
19 Let's go back even further.
20 Do they provide you with their -- the list
21 of educational institutions, et cetera, when the
22 school is actually providing you with the roster
23 of their faculty?
24 A. Educational -- can you clarify that?
25 Q. Sure. Does it say Mary Nurse, or, you know,

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1 Ms. X, who's a teacher, that she went to Central
2 Connecticut and she has a BS, and that she went to
3 Yale and got her Master's of Nursing there. Do
4 they have that information on it?
5 A. At times, they may identify the school or
6 the undergraduate and graduate and/or doctoral
7 degrees. And at times, they may just put in the
8 actual degree. For example, a BSN, Bachelor of
9 Science in Nursing, MSN, Master of Science in
10 Nursing, and a doctoral degree, whether it's a
11 PhD, or maybe a doctoral degree in education EdD,
12 whatever the doctoral degree is. They -- so they
13 may.
14 Q. Okay. So in some instances, they may and
15 some instances, they may not, is what I'm hearing?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And again, we're talking about during the
18 five-year study. What, if anything, did you do to
19 authenticate that? Do you actually contact the
20 schools to see if that's accurate or what do you
21 do there?
22 A. Nothing. I do not authenticate the
23 information that they have provided regarding the
24 educational preparation of the faculty, nursing
25 faculty.

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1 Q. And why is that?
2 A. It would be the responsibility of the school
3 to adhere to the regulations and provide the
4 accurate information.
5 Q. But you spoke a moment ago about -- not a
6 moment, many moments ago, about authenticating --
7 the authentication process that you did during the
8 five-year study. And there was some -- for
9 example, there was some talk about the student
10 handbook.
11 What, if anything, did you do to
12 authenticate -- what's the scope of your
13 authentication process when you're dealing with
14 the student handbook?
15 A. So the student handbook, I read the pages,
16 every page. And if there's inaccurate
17 information -- for example, if the student
18 handbook says things like when a student graduates
19 and applies to the Connecticut Board of Nursing
20 for a licensure, that's not accurate. When a
21 student graduates, they would apply to the State
22 of Connecticut Department of Public Health for
23 licensure, not the -- it would be the Board of
24 Examiners For Nursing. And if they do not have
25 the correct name for the Board of Examiners For

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1 Nursing, I would correct that. So I correct the
2 information that's factual.
3 Q. Okay. Now, what about if they state "Look,
4 we have a really great program and we have highly
5 qualified faculty" in the handbook. Do you
6 authenticate that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What about if they say "We provide real
9 hands-on clinical experiences of great value to
10 the student." Do you actually authenticate that
11 statement and determine whether that's true?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What would you do if you came across a
14 statement like that in the handbook; what, if
15 anything, would you do?
16 A. I would read it.
17 Q. Also, earlier today, we talked about the --
18 the term was used, "investigation." And some of
19 the questioning was a little -- and response was a
20 little clunky, I guess, around that and whatnot.
21 So can you just tell me what -- does
22 "investigation" mean something to you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And can you tell me what that means?
25 A. So as a nurse consultant in a Practitioner

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1 Licensing and Investigation Section, I am assigned
2 to complete investigations into individual
3 licensing. So that term "investigation," to me, I
4 use that term regarding my assigned investigate --
5 assigned investigations or cases regarding the
6 process that I'm following for that individual
7 licensee.
8 Q. And you also spoke -- like I believe when
9 were you going over your educational background,
10 about survey. You actually got trained as a
11 surveyor and you've done hospital surveys, et
12 cetera.
13 How would you describe, keeping in mind you
14 got the investigation, you got a survey, how would
15 you investigate -- investigate -- how would you
16 describe your role that you actually partook in
17 the five-year study of Stone Academy? Was it an
18 investigation, was it a survey, was it something
19 else?
20 A. It was not an investigation. It was -- the
21 five-year study is a routine review by the Board.
22 I reviewed the data. Sometimes I do confirm the
23 data. For example, do they have an active RN
24 license. Then I go out and make observations of
25 the campus and the clinical locations. So maybe

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1 informed --
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. -- data collector?
4 Q. Okay. And we talked about the processes
5 that -- well, let's step back.
6 How does -- you said the school provides you
7 with information. How do they know what
8 information that needs to be provided? Is it self
9 select or how does that work?
10 A. So each practical nursing school in the
11 state of Connecticut gets -- completes a five-year
12 study every five years. In January of the year
13 that they're going to have to present their
14 five-year study to the Board, they get a letter
15 from me to say "Your five-year study will be done
16 and needs to be presented to the Board in this
17 month and this year." They also get an
18 attachment, a document that has been approved by
19 the Nursing Board regarding the documentation that
20 they must provide. And as I spoke to, for
21 example, their faculty requirements, their
22 contracts; so there's a preamble and 16 criteria.
23 So they get all of that information.
24 In addition, that has information about when
25 I do my campus visit, what I would be looking for.

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1 And when I do the clinical, unannounced clinical
2 experiences, when I observed the clinical
3 experience. So the campus visit is announced, and
4 the observations of the clinical experience are
5 not announced to the school.
6 Q. So if I can just take one piece of what your
7 response was, I think directly responding to the
8 question, they know -- the school knows what they
9 need to provide because you gave them a letter,
10 outlined the categories of information that you
11 require?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And not just you require; that the BOEN, the
14 Nursing Board, has required --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- that you collect for them?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in your review process, when that --
19 when those categories of information come in, what
20 are you actually doing at that point in time?
21 A. I'm reading the information that they sent
22 in and ensuring that the information that they
23 sent is complete. So if they, for example, had
24 not provided the list of contracts with clinical
25 locations, I would then reach out to the school

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1 program administrator and say "For this criterion,
2 you did not provide a list of contracts for your
3 clinical locations," and request that they provide
4 that.
5 Q. Do you provide any assessment of the
6 materials, assuming they actually provided
7 everything that's -- you know, information
8 responding to all the categories of information,
9 do you then take a look at the information they
10 provided to you and assess it, apart from, you
11 already told us, you check the RN licensure?
12 A. I don't provide any assessment. But if the
13 information is not accurate, for example, if it
14 talks about how they would -- who actually -- how
15 the student would apply for a license, which I
16 used my example for the -- in the student
17 handbook, if it says they applied to the state
18 Board of Nursing, which is not accurate, I would
19 say, "This is not accurate."
20 Q. Okay. And what would you do in that regard
21 if you did find inaccurate information?
22 A. I would contact the program director and say
23 "On page whatever, this information is not
24 accurate."
25 Q. Okay. Now, there's also been some

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1 discussion, you know there was an audit done at a
2 certain point in time, and the auditors took a
3 look at the clinical experiences. And there was
4 some questioning about -- it was called, I think,
5 your role in that or whatnot. But without just,
6 you know, calling it a role or whatnot, did you
7 provide any information that the auditors then may
8 have actually used in determining whether
9 something was a clinical experience, do you know
10 that?
12 A. I did provide how -- how the nursing school
13 could demonstrate that a clinical experience
14 happened. Things like attendance sheets.
15 Q. So it kind of was a yes or no.
16 A. Oh, I'm sorry; so yes.
17 Q. I want to break it down because it's
18 important. You just said the nursing school can
19 demonstrate?
20 A. The nursing school.
21 Q. Did you provide anything that says the
22 student could demonstrate that they satisfied?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So what was -- before we get to the
25 information you provided, what was the basis for

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1 the information you provided? In other words, did
2 you go to the regulations, or how did you come up
3 with the items that you were suggesting?
4 A. So that would be based on my education
5 experience and -- and clinical experiences. So
6 that's how I came up with -- and what my
7 observations had been for the many years that I
8 have completed observations of schools in their
9 clinical -- during their clinical experiences.
10 Q. Okay. And do you recall the -- I don't have
11 it in front of me, but do you recall, you know,
12 how you actually communicated that information to
13 the auditors?
14 A. I --
15 Q. Or how it was communicated to the auditors?
16 A. So I was asked to create a list. And then
17 sent that back up to, internally, the Department
18 of Public Health. So I don't -- I believe it was
19 communicated from our department, to Office of
20 Higher Education. I'm not sure how the
21 auditors -- I do not know how the auditors got the
22 information.
23 Q. Was it directly from you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. And just, again, to clarify, we're

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1 talking about the clinical experience piece and
2 whether it was valid or not. The information you
3 were giving from that point, was that derived from
4 you sitting as a student, whether making a
5 determination was valid or not, or was it from a
6 different perspective?
7 MR. HEALY: Object to the form of the
8 question.
9 A. It was not related to if the experience was
10 valid. It was how the school could demonstrate
11 that a clinical experience had occurred.
12 Q. Okay. There was also some testimony earlier
13 that Dr. Seepersad, you know, looked to you,
14 relied on you. Do you recall that earlier today?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Can you describe what your role is
17 with respect to the Office of Higher Education, if
18 you have a role at all?
19 A. I don't.
20 Q. You don't have any designations or anything
21 like that?
22 A. I have been identified as a curriculum
23 specialist for Practical Nursing Programs by the
24 Office of Higher Education.
25 Q. So what is that?

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1 A. When they complete a survey of an
2 educational institution, they have people that
3 review different parts of that educational
4 institution's educational programs. And I would
5 be reviewing the Practical Nursing Program.
6 Q. Is that just a casual designation that you
7 made up, or --
9 Q. The curriculum specialist.
10 A. That is the Office of Higher Education's
11 term. They had requested that I apply to be a
12 curriculum specialist to review the Practical
13 Nursing Programs for some educational programs
14 that they were surveying.
15 Q. And did you actually apply?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. And were you accepted?
18 A. I was accepted.
19 Q. Okay. And do you recall when that was, how
20 long you have been a curriculum specialist for
21 OHE?
22 A. It was sometime in 2022. I don't know
23 exactly.
24 Q. Okay. Let's just talk about the NCLEX for a
25 moment.

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1 You're aware that -- why don't you tell me
2 how it is, how it came to be, that the State of
3 Connecticut, for licensure purposes of LPNs, has
4 designated the NCLEX as the exam?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. State of Connecticut came to that.
8 Q. Okay. So as far as you're concerned, do you
9 know if that's a requirement?
11 A. A requirement for...
12 Q. For licensure.
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Okay. But exactly how that came to pass,
15 you don't know?
17 Q. Okay. You never discussed the NCLEX with
18 the Nursing Board?
19 A. I discussed the NCLEX test results that I
20 cleared for each school in Connecticut one time a
21 year. So I do present that to the Board.
22 Q. Okay. Are you -- does the Department of
23 Public Health have any role in accrediting a
24 Licensed Practical Nurse Program in Connecticut?
25 A. No.

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1 Q. To your knowledge, does the Department of
2 Public Health accredit nursing programs?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Does the Department of Public Health have
5 any oversight role over Stone Academy's nursing
6 program?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Or any Licensed Practical Nursing Program in
10 Connecticut?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know if the Department of Public
13 Health has determined whether or not Stone -- at
14 any time, whether or not Stone Academy would be
15 capable of educating students to become licensed
16 nurse practitioners?
17 A. Can you repeat that question?
18 Q. Probably not.
19 MR. RUTCHICK: Can you read it back?
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. Again, to clarify, I think we did speak
23 about this, but there is no DPH role in
24 accreditation or not in terms of a licensing -- a
25 Practical Nursing Program, excuse me, in

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1 Connecticut?
3 A. Correct.
4 MR. RUTCHICK: Okay, I don't think I
5 have anything further.
6 MR. SLOSSBERG: I just have a couple
7 follow-ups on the last line of questions.
8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. SLOSSBERG:
10 Q. Counsel used the word "role," okay. You've
11 been -- we've asked you lots of things so far
12 today. You're a curriculum specialist, correct?
13 A. For the Office of Higher Education.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. That is the title that they provided.
16 Q. Right. And you're a RN?
17 A. I'm a registered nurse, yes.
18 Q. And you have all this experience in
19 reviewing the regulations and making sure that
20 people comply, right?
21 A. No, I don't make sure people comply. I
22 review regulations, yes.
23 Q. And, for example, Dr. Seepersad is not a
24 nurse, right?
25 A. I don't know if he's a nurse or not.

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1 Q. Well, there's people at the Office of Higher
2 Education look to the people who have nursing
3 background to be able to oversee or to give them
4 information regarding nursing; correct?
5 A. I don't know what Dr. Seepersad looks to
6 people. I don't know.
7 Q. Well, so I'm trying to figure out here, one
8 of the things that is relevant to accreditation is
9 the five-year review, right?
11 A. The Practical Nursing Programs in
12 Connecticut are not accredited. They are approved
13 by the Nursing Board. They're not accredited.
14 Q. Okay, so approved. We'll use your word. So
15 approvals of programs are dependent on five-year
16 reviews, correct?
17 A. That would be the Board's determination to
18 approve a program.
19 Q. But you play a role in that, right?
20 A. I collect information for the five-year
21 study. I do not approve the program.
22 Q. You --
23 A. I do not play a role in the approval of a --
24 any nursing program in the state of Connecticut.
25 Q. Well, that's -- okay. You don't sign the

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1 order that says "Approved," or you don't vote on
2 whether or not it's approved. That's at the Board
3 of Examiners For Nursing, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. But you gather the information, right?
6 A. I collect information, yes.
7 Q. You present it to the Board?
8 A. I present -- yes.
9 Q. You tell them whether you found any faculty
10 that are unqualified?
11 A. I tell them if there's any things that I
12 found there not consistent with the regulations.
13 Q. All right. You tell them if there's
14 substandard NCLEX scores, right? So if it's below
15 80 percent, you report that to them as well,
16 correct?
17 A. I report the numbers.
18 Q. You go and you do site visits so that your
19 personal observations are part of the approval
20 process, right?
21 A. I do site visits, yes.
22 Q. So it's, for example, you gave us an example
23 with Stone Academy, where you went to three
24 different locations for clinicals, and nobody
25 showed up; right?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I'm assuming, how many -- do you
3 remember how many clinical locations you went to
4 for the five-year study for Stone Academy in 2021?
5 A. I believe I went to two day locations, and
6 one evening location.
7 Q. And people showed up at that?
8 A. Students showed up and instructors, yes.
9 Q. And as a curriculum specialist, one of the
10 things that you determine is whether the
11 curriculum meets the regulations, right?
12 A. I don't make that determination.
13 Q. Who does?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. So what do you do as a curriculum
16 specialist?
17 A. I review the program during the survey, for
18 the Office of Higher Education survey, and give
19 information whether the program is consistent with
20 the regulations.
21 Q. And you have -- so just so we're clear, the
22 reason why, for nursing programs, the Department
23 of Public Health is involved, is because it
24 involves the specialty of Nursing; correct?
25 A. Could you repeat that?

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1 Q. Yes. All I want to know, it seems
2 self-evident to me, but I just want to make sure
3 that you agree with me, that the reason why the
4 Department of Public Health is involved with
5 nursing programs, is because it involves a public
6 health specialty in the nursing field; correct?
7 A. We're involved because the Board is a
8 voluntary Board, and directs the Department to
9 collect information, make visits.
10 Q. Okay. Well, the Office of Higher Education,
11 I don't know, they probably have a role with
12 regard to UConn, their engineering school. They
13 don't come to the Department of Public Health for
14 engineering, correct?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. With your experience, what value do you add,
17 what is it that you bring to the table with your
18 years of experience as a nurse, with all of your
19 practical experience with the regulations, with
20 everything that you bring to the table, what value
21 do you add?
22 A. To value add to --
23 Q. To the education of nursing students in the
24 state of Connecticut.
25 A. I collect information for the Nursing Board.

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1 MR. SLOSSBERG: All right, I don't have
2 anything further on this.
3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. HEALY:
5 Q. One question, Ms. Smith. Would you agree
6 with this statement: The Board of Examiners For
7 Nursing reviewed the Stone Academy LPN program in
8 2021 and gave final approval for the program in
9 October of 2021?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. HEALY: Thank you.
12 MR. SLOSSBERG: Okay, why don't we
13 take -- let's go off the record.
14 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD)
15 (WHEREUPON, the deposition was adjourned
16 at 1:10 p.m.)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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1 WITNESS INDEX
2 Witness - HELEN SMITH PAGE
3 Direct Examination by Mr. Slossberg 5
4 Cross-Examination by Mr. Healy 101
5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Rutchick 134
6 Redirect Examination by Mr. Slossberg 150
7 Recross-Examination by Mr. Healy 155
8 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT INDEX
9 1 Notice of Deposition 5
10 2 NCSBN website 53
11 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT INDEX
12 1 Nursing Regulations 124
13 PJR EXHIBIT INDEX
14 21 Violations of Regulations 48
15 517 LPN License Information 58
16 29 Audit Summary 62
17 13 12/20/22 email 81
18 14 12/20/22 email 82
19 15 OHE email 85
20 18 Regulations email 88
21 19 Audit list email 93
22 20 Audit tool email 97
23 23 Nursing faculty email 98
24
25 (Exhibits retained by plaintiff's counsel)

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1 J U R A T
2
3
4
5 _________________________________
Deponent: HELEN SMITH
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME, the
13 undersigned authority, on this the _____ day of
14 ________________, 2023.
15
16
17
18 _________________________________
19 Notary Public
20
21 My commission expires:
22
23
24
25

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Page 158
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I hereby certify that I am a Notary Public
3 in and for the State of Connecticut duly
4 commissioned and qualified to administer oaths.
5 I further certify that the deponent named in the
6 foregoing deposition was by me duly sworn and
7 thereupon testified as appears in the foregoing
8 deposition; that said deposition was taken by me
9 stenographically in the presence of counsel and
10 transcribed by means of computer-aided
11 transcription by the undersigned, and the
12 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the
13 testimony.
14 I further certify that I am neither of counsel nor
15 attorney to either of the parties to said suit,
16 nor of either counsel in said suit, nor related to
17 or employed by any of the parties or counsel to
18 said suit, nor am I interested in the outcome of
19 said cause.
20 Witness my hand and seal as Notary Public this
21 20th day of November, 2023.
22
23 _________________________________
24 NOTARY PUBLIC
25 My commission expires: 11/30/2027

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RIDENHOUR, ET AL v.

CAREER TRAINING SPECIALISTS, ET AL November 17, 2023

Deposition of HELEN SMITH, taken pursuant to

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

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Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

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Sanders, Gale & Russell

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Sanders, Gale & Russell

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Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

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Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell

Electronically signed by JULIA CASHMAN (601-228-566-4085) 1f6ce44f-e6d2-4606-850b-7ea0ed25e6dd

Sanders, Gale & Russell