Demo - Brad and KT

Speaker Transcript Annotations

Brad Thanks again for volunteering.
KT Yes, of course.
Brad And yeah, the way we like to start these sessions is just for me getting a little bit of understanding of what you Pillar #1: Clarifying the Therapeutic Contract.
would hope for out of our time together.
KT Okay, great. I was reading over sort of my thesis statement for this and there's something blocking connecting I like the way she's describing this with the bike images. The word that really draws me is "block" or
to present life and then future life. There's some sort of block that I can't ... there's like an emotional attachment, "resistance", so I want to clarify further with her about this and what she would like if the resistance is gone.
some kind of attachment that it's really hard for me to break off. And it's affecting kind of what I've been talking
about in counseling, it's affecting a lot of friendships, relationships, work. It just kind of infiltrates into every
area of life where the way I describe it is I can't quite click into right now. And so the image that comes to mind
is cyclists, how they have those shoes that click into the bike, and for some reason I just can't click my shoes in.
And so I have the bike maybe and I have the shoes maybe and I'm by the bike, but there's like some sort of
resistance that's letting me click in. Does that make sense?
Brad Yeah, that's a great way to describe it. I like it a lot, yeah. And you called it resistance, like there's something in Clarifying further with her, part of Pillar #1.
your way of clicking in the way that you'd like it to be there.
KT Yeah, it feels like I have a really stubborn way about me that it's finding the wrong thing. So if I just shifted the I'm interested in this half-level and full-level description and want to understand more about this, so I will
stubbornness towards letting go of whatever it is or breaking the attachment, it seems like I can't dial it in the continue to clarify.
way that's helpful, it's just dialed towards something that's still blocking. So I do not know how to pinpoint it. I
don't know how to unattach, I don't know anything like that, but it's getting to the point now where I think I'm
aware enough that there is something that is just ... anyways, it's really frustrating honestly, and disheartening
just because in my head I think the belief system is, "Well, this is just always how it's going to be. And I'll always
live life at a half level even though I know what it looks like when I live at a full level, and that's a better option."
So that's kind of where my thoughts are.
Brad And that full level, can you give me a little bit more sense of? Because you said you know what that looks like, Further clarification.
like helped me understand what that looks like.
KT So this is where I'm like, "Am I just romanticizing the past?" But I think since I was a little kid I was always
excited about what was ahead and so there was this excitement of the future and like let's dream, let's build
these things, let's ... kind of a zest is the best word that comes to mind for it. And then using that towards like
friendship, seeing hope in friendships, in work, in things that I care about. It was hard for me now, in the last 10
years it's been really hard for me to even care about something enough for me to give it my full attention. And I
think I miss really caring about things. As like simple as that sounds, it feels like it really has a strong effect and
impact just because it's kind of like a shrug the shoulders of like, "Well, if it gets too good, then the other shoe is
going to drop." And that's my past experience so then don't believe anything can get that good, because then if
you start feeling attached to it or excited about it that's when it will get taken away. Yeah.
Brad And so, yeah, that's all so useful. And then it sounds like what I'm hearing you're wanting for yourself is to I put a few pieces together here and want to make sure I am asking this openly to see if this aligns for her.
reconnect to that zest and that excitement and hopefulness about life.
KT Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like there's a fear of being intimate in life, and not just like in relationships but I can
almost taste that life has a lot to offer. And then there's just something that's like, "Do not connect, like do not
attach." And so that's where the stubbornness comes in where it's just it feels like I'm fighting myself, and so
then there comes this like, "Well, then I just don't like myself, because I'm my own enemy and I'm keeping
myself back." And so it just kind of twist everything, it seems like. And then there's a fear of connecting to people
and dreams and literally anything. And it's easier to just let life happen to me than for me to kind of get on the
bike, kind of like, "I'll just sit back and see whatever happens." Yeah, passive.
Brad Yeah, so I'm hearing this bind, there's part of that really wants to connect deeper to life, have that zest, have that Naming the core dilemma here.
excitement, but there's a part that has some fear around it.
KT Yes. And it feels almost like it's ... this is a story I'm telling myself is that it's not in my control to shift the She seems to be describing the grip of the adaptive survival styles, where individuals don't feel in control of
stubbornness or I'm just like it just seems kind of like Jekyll and Hyde, whichever one is the more difficult one, themselves or their lives, but feel compelled to act in familiar ways even when it no longer serves them.
seems just like, "Oh, well, that's just in control of me." As weird as that sounds, it just seems impossible to even
imagine shifting it.
Brad Okay. And again, I'm hearing that you'd like to shift it? Again, I want to check in with her about this.
KT Yes. Yeah.
Brad Yeah. And there's that, again, there's that excitement, there's that zest in there's something that feels kind of out Naming the core dilemma again to clarify.
of your control that's in the way of that.
KT Yeah. And I don't know how to let it go. If it's letting it go, I don't even know the language for it., but breaking
this block.
Brad Yes. Okay, well, I'm happy to explore continue exploring what's in the way of you having more of this full level Notice how I reflect this back to her to see if she's aligned with this exploration. This is the relational consent
experience for yourself? piece of Pillar #1.

NARM Inner Circle Demo

 KT Amazing. Yeah, yeah. It's been a long enough time where I'm realizing this hopelessness is not ... if it keeps going
from like ... I mean, it's gone into like really deep depression, suicidality - all these things that I'm like, "That feels
heavy to keep carrying." And so if there's a way ... I'm not even trying to be like naive again or like rose colored
glasses just to not be carrying the hopelessness as much.
Brad Well, I think a place maybe that we can start is that like this binds feels very important somehow, because Working directly here with her desire and whatever the pattern is that is blocking her actualizing her desire for
there's a big part of you that does ... you've had experiences in the past and it sounds like you desire to have a "full level" of life experience ("zest").
those experiences again.
KT Yeah.
Brad But then as it gets more intimate or more connected, there's this fear that comes up. And you described like the I bring this up because my sense is that fearing that the next shoe could drop could be part of what gets in the
next shoe will drop or something like that. way of embracing a full level of life experience.
KT Yeah. There's a definite fear. Also, I don't know if this is helpful, but I grew up in a very unemotional family and "Kill me to open emotions" is the language from child consciousness, because that was true for a young child.
so there are a few things that happened post college that where just it feels like it broke me and I did not know But she's no longer a child, and I trust that she just hasn't developed the appropriate capacity to manage her
what to do with. I still, I'm like the grief process freaks me out. And I love the denial phase. And I talked about strong emotions, but as she does develop this capacity, she will be able to stay present without using these
that with my counselor, just I'm like glued to it. And so there's some fear when I do some work getting in my strategies that may be now in her way.
true self, I know that there's this bolt that is so strong and I know that my deepest fears and emotions are there.
And it feels like it will kill me to open emotions. So I don't know if that's helpful, but ...
Brad Yeah, yeah.
KT Emotions are very scary to me until they're not I guess.
Brad Well, if it feels that overwhelming it makes total sense why you've resisted it and use this kind of strategy of First, I do a small piece of psychoeducation through validating the wisdom of the adaptive survival styles, and
being stubborn against it. It makes total sense. Okay, but here's where I think it might be useful for us, is do you then I move into Pillar #2, specifically asking a question that demonstrates the NARM inquiry skill we call
have an experience, it could be recent or it could be longer ago, but that you were like wanting to get more "deconstruction of experience."
intimate or connected to either a person or an experience and then that fear started to come up and you start to
feel that stubbornness and that resistance? Like, can we break it down to a real example?
KT Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to try to follow what's first coming to mind, I have these two friends who are She's naming what we call in NARM "fear of attachment or relational loss". So now we're seeing what could be
sisters who feel like sisters to me which family is very ... I'm always trying to figure out how to create family, but triggering some of her adaptive survival strategies.
there's also this resistance because I'm like, "I will be unchosen." And so we were going on this road trip and I
was like, "Oh, this might be a time where I actually feel accepted at this table." And I was so excited about it and I
was just like ... and then as soon as we got in the car I was like, "I don't know how I fit in this scenario. And I
don't know what I bring to the table. So I should just not even think I should sit here." And so I think that was an
example where ... and then I shut down for the whole day because I was just like [unclear/cross talking 09:26]
Brad Okay, so this is a great example. So this is really interesting, because you had all this excitement and then if we Slowing down to really get into the sequence of how this happens. These things happen so automatically, so
can maybe slow it down it'd be really interesting, like what happened from like you planning and getting excited unconsciouslly, so slowing it down invites her to be in relationship with it more from her adult consciousness.
to like getting in the car and also shutting down? Like, where did that start to shift?
KT I think when I couldn't pinpoint my role. So I actually nannied for the older sister and that's how I met her sister Lots of useful information here, but I am particularly drawn to how she relates to herself with no value if she's
who was my age and then the three of us became really close. And so I was like, "Well, I'm not her nanny," the not playing a specific role. This is a familiar pattern that she shares dates back to her childhood.
older sisters nanny, "So I can't add value there." And then I'm not blood related to either of them so I can't just
be like lean on that as my value. And so I could not figure out what person to be or what role to fill or what value
to add. And so then that's where I think it shut down, it's just like all of a sudden I don't know who I am in this
setting. And if I don't know my role, then I should just not be here, sort of thing. I think that was kind of what my
whole growing up, was figuring out how to be impressive enough to sit in my family setting. And that's the only
way to be recognized or noticed or important. And so that really shifted how I see the world. And maybe it's not
so helpful, I don't know if you do Enneagram, the three is very strong in me of just like you have to be important
to be remembered or to be accepted or any of those things. So I think it ... sorry, in that setting when I couldn't
figure out where my role was, then what I heard was just ... or I didn't even hear anything, I just shut down.
Brad And the thing that seems really significant is that that's a familiar dynamic. I mean, I asked you to come up with I am tying this recent example to a childhood/familiar pattern.
an example, that was a more recent example, but it seems like it's symbolic of like a theme that you've dealt with
from your childhood.
KT Yes, definitely. Yeah. And I think when I'm talking about this time of life, where I was proud of it in myself and Now she goes further than just having no value - now she relates to herself as worthless and feels that she "takes
there was that zest, I knew my role. And so I think maybe part of it is I don't know how to detach from what I'm up space". These shame-based identifications are strong and drive the strategies she's describing.
doing. I don't know. It's really hard for me to flush out just because I do not think about it. I try to just avoid it at
all cost because I'm like, "No, because then they'll realize that I am worthless, and then I just kind of take up
space."
Brad Well, that's one possibility. It could be the opposite possibility that you realize that you're really worth a lot and I am suggesting an alternative here, as a way to keep our exploration open.
you have a lot to contribute and to be valuable.
KT Yeah. So, see, when you say that then the stubbornness comes. This is a great example. Sounds like a strategy emerges in response to this possibility that I reflected.
Brad Good, good, good.
KT Because then I'm like there's this thing that's like, "No, I can't ... I can't even hear it." Like that I ...
Brad Okay, good. Okay, so let's go with this because I like that this is coming up. So what might that stubbornness be Notice how I ask about the function of the adaptive strategy (jn this case, the "stubborness"). I am asking a
protecting against? Like, let's say what I was saying was true. Let's say you had value, you had you had worth, question similar to those that we do in NARM Trainings, which is to reflect on the function of the strategy.
what's the stubbornness? What are you trying to protect against if that's true?

NARM Inner Circle Demo

 KT This is a good ... okay, this is really like real time. Okay, what is it guarding? Ugh. I think ... okay, I mean, really ...
I'm trying to like make it up without actually listening.
Brad No, take your time. Take your time. I want to support her to stay in her adult consciousness as opposed to an old strategy.
KT Okay.
Brad No rush.
KT It's guarding this ... it just feels like a little kid who I'm trying to protect, like it feels like this is the adult trying to
be like, "Don't like let her think that." And she can't hear that or ... and I don't know why.
Brad Yeah, because if she hears it, what happens to her? Staying with the survival function of this strategy, part of Pillar 2.
KT Oh, I don't know. Okay, what happens if she hears that?
Brad Again, take your time.
KT Okay. I think part of it ... this is just off the cuff, I'm trying to like follow the thoughts from here, but it's almost as Her feeling out of control jumps out at me, so I want to inquire more about this.
if when she hears that, which maybe this is language that I've been learning, but it almost seems like then I'm
out of control and then I don't know ... maybe that spirit of like the little kid who's just like wide eyed and
excited about life, maybe I attach it to what led me to the hardest time of my life so then I'm like, "Don't tell her
that because then I can't protect her like this." Does that make sense?
Brad Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so there's something about feeling out of control, that if you really allow yourself to take This is an example of the Pillar 3 intervention of threading. I am threading back different elements she has
in your value or whatever that excitement, that there could be some way that that leads to feeling out of control. shared to see how she is relating to them now.
KT Yeah. And then kind of the word that I almost heard ... I wanted to say was destruction. It like will lead me to It makes sense how scary that would feel if she goes from no value to worthless to destruction (remember, she
that, destruction. Which is really intense. shared with me earlier that she's been suicidal so I want to tread lightly here since this is my first time meeting
her).
Brad Which is what?
KT It feels ... that feels intense. I'm like, "Where's that ... Okay, I didn't know that."
Brad Well, again, it makes me understand more in respect some of the strategies you've developed about avoidance Again, validating the survival strategies.
and about stubbornness and stuff, like if you feel like it's going to lead to destruction then, yeah, that makes total
sense for you to protect against that.
KT Yeah. Yeah. And then so the pen ... I love pendulum things where I'm like yes, but then I'll just swing back here.
And maybe this is a distraction method where I'm like ... but now I'm annoyed that that's happening. Instead of
actually sitting in it I'm like, "Well, let me just be annoyed at it."
Brad Well, but, yeah, that also makes sense because there's two sides to this, there's a side of you that is afraid of Returning to the dilemma. I am naming clearly these strategies which seem to reflect a splitting mechanism.
connecting and then there's a side that has this kind of excitement about connecting. So again, it makes sense
that when you feel into this side, you'll flip to the other side.
KT Yeah. It feels ... it makes you feel crazy, which is why I think I love just putting it to the side. She says crazy here, but before she said out of control and feeling the intense impulse of destruction.
Brad What's the it that makes you feel crazy? This is an example of the Pillar 2 intervention of drilling down. I don't know what she's referring to and I want
to see if we can gather more information about that exactly makes her feel crazy.
KT Maybe anytime, especially in counseling too, we get close to a tender topic, without even me realizing that, I will She's clearly naming the process of connection-disconnection. It's great that she's aware of this process. But,
ping us in a different direction. And so then that's where the frustration is like ... that feels out of my control, just what's challenging is that she attacks herself for this.
because it's like subconscious I'm doing that. And, but .. or James will help me realize like, "Okay, let's bring it
back to what we were talking about," because I'll just kind of bring us this way. And so maybe that's part of
making sure ... the frustrating part about ... it feels like I can't even settle into sitting with it, and so then it will
always be there. Which that gets a little confusing, but ...
Brad Well, again, I heard these words about destruction and that it will break you.
KT Yeah.
Brad Like you've used some significant words, so it makes sense, again, that why you would be kind of moving in Again, naming and validating her reliance on strategies of disconnection. I continue to hold these with
these different directions because when you get closer to connecting that's associated with destruction or compassion and acceptance, not that I expect her to immediately shift in this direction, but she is beating herself
whatever. up for her strategies and many other people (including therapists!) will reinforce the judgments about the
strategies, or try to change them. Here I am inviting her to track the connection-disconnection process and
reflect back as i track this process.
KT Yeah. Okay, that's helpful to hear you give some ... I don't know. Like, bring it back to something that it's like, Sounds like she's giving herself a bit of self-acceptance, but then reflects on how hard it is to stay present with
"Okay, I don't have to make me hate that part," but it's hard to not. this.
Brad Why would you hate it? Pillar #2: Asking Exploratory Questions
KT Oh, because it feels like it's fighting myself. But then when you're saying like it actually makes sense then that's
helpful to hear.
Brad Yeah, because, I mean, I imagine that as you feel less afraid of this internal territory, like when it doesn't feel like This is a foundational perspective in NARM. We trust that as clients shift their internal relationship, with
it's going to destroy you or break you, then the strategy won't have to be so strong and you can allow yourself to support from us (creating the conditions for curiosity and self-inquiry), they will rely less on these strategies
have more space to connect to that. But right now, it hasn't been like that. that once served them and are now in their way.
KT Uh-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's hard ... like I'm like, "What do you do with that?" Just because ...
Brad Well, it's interesting, because when I was just reflecting that back it seemed like you took a breath before you Pillar #4: Reflecting Psychobiological Shifts. I observed that she seemed to take it in for a moment and I didn't
went and ... want to let that pass without reflecting that back.
KT Yeah.

NARM Inner Circle Demo

 Brad Did you notice that?
KT No.
Brad Oh, okay.
KT Yeah.
Brad It seemed like you took a breath and then you said like, "Oh, but what do I do with that?" I don't want to tell her what she's feeling, but I did want to share what I was observing.
KT Yeah. Okay, yeah, I don't ... there's definitely a (nervous?) that's like, "Oh, you might crack the code." And then Interesting language of "crack the code". And also interesting that she's seemingly afraid of this.
there's this nervousness that's like, "Oh, no."
Brad Well, the good thing is you have some strategies you can always use, you said you have these strategies - you can Supporting her own pacing. I want to reassure her that I am not here to break down her defenses. In fact, I want
be stubborn or resistant or change the topic or avoid. So my job isn't to crack anything, and so I'm just going to her to develop a new relationship to her strategies that she can use them when and if she needs them, but they
follow you. But I do hear that you want to crack it in some level. no longer control her. To me, this is a very powerful aspect of the NARM approach.
KT Yes.
Brad Yeah, because you want to feel more alive and connected to your excitement again. Naming her intention (from Pillar #1).
KT Yeah, yeah. And that's where that feeling comes from here, and I'm like [exhales]. But then to drop from Very true - that's why we don't want to push, because it is hard and we want to make sure she embodies at her
headspace to heart space is just (hard?). own pace.
Brad Yeah.
KT Yeah.
Brad What's just happening overall if we just kind of take a moment just to see how you're doing overall right now? Pillar #4 and also to support a slowing down so we can check in. I don't want her to feel rushed or pushed.
KT Yeah. This is what always happens, is I started to feel like the burning in the back of my eyes and I'm like, "Oh ..."
The emotions, ugh, they just start coming when I start to feel my defenses come down, which is really actually in
some meditation things, that's been a really sweet spot because I know that then I'm here.
Brad Ah.
KT But before I'm here, when I'm in the emotional space I'm just like, "This is uncharted territory." And I don't
know if you've seen James' chart with the like you're in your false self and then lifting up the control and then
here's your emotions. It's like lifting up the control bar freaks me out.
Brad And again, in the way I work, you don't have to go any further than you're comfortable [unclear/cross talking I can hear that this has been a scary place so I want to continue to reinforce she is in control and I am going to
20:50] stay with her.
KT Yeah.
Brad So I'm with you wherever you want to go.
KT Yeah. Thanks for saying that. It is like I hear like, "Please, please let's do this from here." And then I'm just like,
"Yeah." So that's where the Jekyll and Hyde thing comes.
Brad Yeah. Yeah. Because there's part of you that has such a strong desire to feel more of your life energy but there's Coming back to the bind again. I'm holding both sides and not pushing for one side over the other.
another part that's gets scary.
KT Yeah. Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Brad So before when I was checking in with you, you felt some burning behind your eyes, does that mean to you that Pillar #2: Asking Exploratory Questions
you're having emotion?
KT Oh, it's like before you have tears, that feeling where you're just like, "Here they come." And then they'll always
just sit here and I ...
Brad Okay, I want to not ... okay, how do I say this? I don't want you to go into the feelings, okay? We can stay I feel very cautious about moving forward because I can sense, and she's reporting, that there is a lot of energy
disconnected from them. What I'm curious about is if you were going to feel the feelings of the tears or whatever there, and in the past, she has struggled with this. So I will use an intervention of creating some distance, using a
is there, what do you think that would be about? Like, what would that be about? hypothetical "if you were going to feel the feelings", and keeping it more on the cognitive or reflective level (as
opposed to the emotional or body level which I don't feel she has the capacity to tolerate fully yet) - this is an
example of structuralizing as I am working with how she is relating to and organizing herself.
KT Oh, this is good. This is the part that feels new, is as soon as there are tears then I'm just like, "Well, distract." So This is exactly why I want to support her slowing down, precisely because it's felt out of her control
learning when people say how are you feeling it's literally like, "Oh, um, I don't know." So this is good. The tears, ("involuntary"). I want to support agency here.
maybe it almost seems like they're sensing the closeness to seeing things as they are, like out of the denial
phase. And so anytime that that happens I'm like, "Oh, we're getting close to something that matters." And so it
feels involuntary I guess when I'm like, "I sometimes don't even know what they mean."
Brad Okay, so you're getting close to something that matters. And again, let's just keep it cognitive, like why do you Notice how I take it even more cognitive here by using distancing language of "someone" and "human".
think someone, a human, would start to feel the tears, like what would be some possible thoughts about why
they would start feeling tears as they're getting close to something that really matters?
KT Oh, this is sometimes where then I'm just like I like forget what we're talking about. So that's another defense She is increasingly aware of her strategies and I notice she doesn't seem so harsh on herself this time.
thing.
Brad Yeah.

NARM Inner Circle Demo

 KT But I want to stay present. So the tears when they get close to something that matters, it seems like it's touching "Talking to my heart space" and "affirmation" both feel life-affirming and like she may be moving closer to the
a longing in my heart that's almost seeming like an affirmation versus pain. That's like just ... I'm trying to like aliveness she most wants. But again I want to make sure we're titrating this process. I can sense her limited
listen right now. And even when you help me by saying, "This makes sense or there's part of you that wants capacity and don't want her to overwhelm herself by pushing too fast.
this," that feels like you're talking to my heart space. And so I think when the defenses are down, there's tears
because I'm like ... you're like talking to this and then I'm starting to listen to this. And so it's almost like an
affirmation of like, "This matters and this is not a scary space," even though I want it to be so that I don't have to
deal with it. That it almost felt maybe like that tears started as like affirmation of, "Keep going. This is good."
Brad Yeah, I like that word, that affirmation word, because, again, that is part of, a big part, of what you want it for I'm still using more distancing language, but all oriented around Pillar #3: Reinforcing Agency.
yourself. You wanted to feel more connected to yourself, more connected to your aliveness, your excitement.
KT Yeah, yeah.
Brad So there's an affirmation and there's some tears that are kind of are affirming that you're moving in the right Notice again how I am holding and reflecting both sides.
direction, but I don't want to lose sight that it has been very scary for you for a long time.
KT Yeah.
Brad And so there's two things that we're holding here, one, is this kind of movement towards something more Continuing to reflect both sides as part of a possibility for repair of the deep splitting.
meaningful, connected to yourself, and one, is that there's been these old fears of what happens if you do that.
KT Totally. Yes. And immediately, I don't know if this is off topic, but immediately I'm like, "Okay, but that's not Moving again toward disconnection, but with increased awareness and what feels like increased compassion. At
how my family operates." And so there's this like obsession with trying to become like what my family wants. least I don't feel that she's totally identified with it like she was in the example she described in the car with her
And so as soon as I'm like, "I want to value emotions," then I'm like, "No, that's so stupid and it's a waste of time, two friends.
and you just need to be strong."
Brad So this is something we talk about sometimes in our trainings that we do, is that when people start getting close A bit of psychoeducation around the fear of attachment/relational loss. I have the sense that this could be
to like authentic experiences for themselves they start to fear that there's some kind of loss in their family or supportive as we keep structuralizing.
their relationships.
KT Yeah.
Brad So this is helping us to make more sense about why it feels so scary because there's this belief, whether it's true Naming again the core dilemma here.
or not, I don't know, but there's a belief somewhere that if you really stay with yourself and connect to your
excitement, there could be some loss that happens.
KT Yes. And as soon as you said that I'm imagining like this little girl and I'm like, "Oh, she will get," like what we "Stay in your family system so that you're not maybe destroyed" - that's a perfect representation of child
said, I'm like, "She cannot be trusted with life. And she will just get blown over." And so maybe that's where I am consciousness, because for a child, that solved the dilemma (to stay in your family system), but as an adult, it
like, "Oh, just connected back to this image where you have to stay in your family system so that you're not keeps us in an impossible and unhealthy bind. And then she herself names the individuation stage of
maybe destroyed." I don't know. So that makes sense when you're saying that there is ... maybe that's the development, which is interesting.
individualization stage of human.
Brad Yeah.
KT Yeah.
Brad What's happening right now? Pillar #4. If there is an experience of separation-individuation happening, I want to see how she's experiencing
this.
KT I'm like, "That feels so terrifying to me." Because like if your family system is your line that you're in to go Before we experience freedom, we often feel the lonliness, which scares us, and compells us to go back to using
forward and be alone, it's what it feels like, then I'm like, "Oh, I definitely don't want to do that." And I think our survival strategies.
maybe ... yeah, maybe there's a fear of being alone for sure.
Brad Yeah. And again, when that fear comes up of being alone then it makes sense you're going to move yourself Naming the pattern again, as a form of threading.
away from that threat of really feeling your authentic feelings.
KT Yeah, yeah. This is helpful.
Brad Yeah? How so? Pillar #2: Asking Exploratory Questions. I want to drill down here to see what it is that she feels is helping her.
KT Yeah. I think it feels like some floating pieces are kind of becoming like a general ... like it's all in one space. The way I translate this is that there's greater organization, integration or coherency happening. Early trauma
fragments humans, and the structuralization focused work I am doing here seems to be providing some
increasing stability.
Brad And what's that like to kind of have these pieces coming in to one space? Pillar #4: Reflecting Psychobiological Shifts
KT It just makes me not feel crazy, which is nice. Now she's able to validate and provide compassion for herself. To me, this is very significant.
Brad Yeah, that's important.
KT Yeah. I think maybe it makes it feel less unsolvable. I translate this as increasing sense of hope.
Brad Well, that's also important because you talked before about when you get into these kind of depressed or I now connect this increasing connection to the strategies of disconnection she's used in the past. This is another
suicidal states, that you feel really hopeless. example of threading and structuralizing.
KT Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah.
Brad And so there might be something about what we're doing here that might be bringing a little bit more
hopefulness.
KT Yeah. This year, I also don't know if this is helpful information, but I went to the Nashville center of hope and
healing here and they diagnosed me with bipolar two. So I don't know if that adds framework to it. But, so we're
like trying to regulate that in a way that feels helpful. But then I think that's part of the thing that feels out of
control, is those like crazy, one, just keeping me in this like really depressive state and then sometimes bouncing
up and then ... yeah. I think that did not help my (conflicts?) with emotions, because now I'm like, "Oh, now I
have to pay attention to them."

NARM Inner Circle Demo

 Brad Well, you have to but there's also a part of you that really longs to I heard. Focusing on her desire to feel more "full level", "zest" and alive.
KT Yeah. Okay, see, this is helpful. I forget that when I'm in this like ...
Brad Yeah, because this whole thing started because there's this conflict, because part of you really longs for having Once again naming the core dilemma. This is another aspect of structuralization.
more connection to your authentic experience of life which includes emotions, excitement, zest, all that stuff.
But then it's been really scary, and as a child you felt like you had to protect against that.
KT Uh-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. How do you learn how to come back to remembering both sides of the coin? Good question she asks here.
Brad Well, I think we're practicing right now. Instead of giving her a task, I reflect what's happening in this moment and how she's relating to herself now.
KT Yeah.
Brad Yeah. It's not easy because these strategies that we develop as kids, they're really strong. Like you said, you've Validating the survival power of these strategies, another example of psychoeducation and normalization.
said it several times, like they're unconscious, they just come and pull you out.
KT Yeah.
Brad You feel like you have no control over them. And then it is about learning how to like face them and start to have Which is what we're doing right now.
more of a relationship to them.
KT Yeah.
Brad Because sometimes you do need to be stubborn, sometimes you do need to like avoid things. Like when big Again, validating the survival strategies, while also reflecting on the possibility of shifting out of being controlled
things happen, it might be too much for you. But if that becomes like the go-to every single day, then, of course, by them.
you're going to start to really have a difficult time.
KT Yeah. So then maybe ... I'm trying to see how ... that's definitely a block, right?
Brad Yeah, that's a block. Reflecting back to the beginning.
KT Yeah. So then even what we talked about the beginning of what's getting in the way, that's helpful to have sort
of an idea.
Brad Yeah, you've actually answered that question for me in a couple of ways - you've answered that if you really Continuing to flesh out the core dilemma.
connect to your full self, your authentic self, there's a threat that you could have lost with very important
relationships, your family, there's a threat that you could feel out of control. And both ... so yeah, the aloneness,
the out of control, the craziness I guess that's connected to the out of control.
KT Yeah.
Brad But those are good reasons why a child, again, developed strategies to kind of protect against (these stuff?), but
now it's actually, like you said, it's like fighting ... it's not working for you anymore, so that's the best way to say
it.
KT Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Brad And so again, what's it like right now as we just take a little time to explore both sides of this conflict? Pillar #4: reflecting specifically on how this psychoeducation is landing for her.
KT It kind of feels like you're standing in front of a big mountain and you're like, "Okay, am I going to do this for
real?" And then there is, of course, such an easy way to just be like, "Nope."
Brad Well, I'm not sure if this is good news or bad news, you have to tell me, but you're already halfway up the She may not agree with me here, and that's OK, but I believe it, so I want to share it authentically.
mountain.
KT Okay. Well, that's awesome.
Brad Okay, good, good.
KT Yeah. Part of me I think ... yeah.
Brad Go ahead.
KT Go ahead.
Brad Go ahead.
KT Oh, I think I don't think I see that for sure. I think it still feels like ... it feels like that something is just like Remember, if she fully sees it, it puts her into a bind, so this is going to be a slow unwinding of that bind.
holding me back but maybe we're still making movements.
Brad Yeah, I mean, because you have so much awareness of this. And I know you've been doing a lot of work on Doing some basic reality testing here. She's been naming all these strategies and yet she's been in therapy and
yourself. and so you do have these strong avoidant patterns, but not strong enough that have kept you out of even willing to work with me, a complete stranger, with the hope that it might help her. There's agency there
getting support? that I am reflecting back.
KT Yeah.
Brad You said you've been working with James for a couple of years now and you've gone to other places for your
bipolar.
KT Yeah.
Brad So that's what I meant about like you're already halfway up the mountain because if this was the first time you'd Continuing to do some reality testing as part of Pillar #4.
ever kind of started to address these things I would say, "Yeah, you're right. You're at the beginning." But you've
done a lot of work already. And so the fact that you're able to be aware of all these strategies and stay present
with me and track them in the way you are, I think you're really getting closer to this internal conflict that's
been in your way for a long time.
KT Yeah. That's so helpful to hear. I think we're always our own worst critic. We are our own worst critic. And so in That's very true, she has been an extremely harsh critic of herself for what sounds like a long time. Many clients
my head I think I have another romanticized view of what it looks like to be up the mountain, and I'm like, "Oh, dismiss or minimize their progress, and when they do, I don't agree if it's not true. They can disagree but it feels
I'm not close." So it's helpful to hear even baby steps that have happened so far. important to be genuine with my clients so i call it out if it feels untrue to me.

NARM Inner Circle Demo

 Brad Are you okay sharing with me what that looks like, that romanticized view of being up the mountain? I'm curious if she's holding an unrealistic or impossible standard for herself.
KT Yeah. I think I imagine kind of a recreation of my college self, which that also has been hard because I'm like,
"All right, I'm not that age anymore." But it was just this like carefree, connected to people, dreaming, going for
it, just like this ... I was in love with life and humans and stories and all these things that I saw so much beauty in.
And then now I'm still ... I'm like, "Do not connect." And so I think that's something that's hard because at the top
of this mountain I have this maybe not super helpful goal, because in my other space I'm like, "I don't want to go
backwards. I want to go forwards," but I'd miss that person if I like let myself actually think about it.
Brad So you had this period of your life where you were really connected to that, and did a shoe drop? Notice how I bring back her words from before - that she's afraid of fully feeling for fear that a shoe will drop. So
I want to know if that happened to her.
KT Yeah, pretty much a lot of them. But, yeah, that post college it was so many things at once that it just ... I think These shame-based associations that clients share with me always feel painful to me. It is a place I need to
that's where I attach my like, "Oh, that life broke me a little bit," where I was like I'd started this thing in college watch my own countertransference because from my perspective children are so precious and hearing adults
and with all my best friends and really like making money and I was like, "Oh, this is going to go global," and it break the spirit of children by imposing these fear-based worldviews is painful for me. At the same time, there is
just started to take off which I found a lot of value in what I did and so then I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm like in a some truth in it - because when we love open-heartedly, the loss is more painful. So I imagine many adults
the right track, I'm in the right lane, I found it. And this is like my life's goal." And then dating a guy in it who I teach their children this with the intention to protect them. It may just be that she did not have adequate
put all my value in and then that bad breakup and then saw our friend group broke up and all these support to move through difficult emotional experiences as a child, or later as a young adult, and so she had to
relationships I'd spent six years building post college, like in college and post college, and then family members rely on survival strategies to manage. This is the "block" or "resistance" she described at the beginning that's
died. It was just like so much at once. And then moving to a new city and not having ... it was just like been in her way of feeling more fully alive.
overwhelming. And so I think I remember the time right before that was like my favorite time of life. And in my
head I'm like, "You enjoyed it too much so it got taken away from you. And if you want to go this route, the pride
comes before the fall," stuff that I learned growing up in church and in Christianity. And so now there's this view
that's like, "Don't get prideful, because if you love something too much it will be taken away from you." So that
adds a whole another element.
Brad Yeah, well, it's an important element I think. And I think in some ways what you're saying is true, that when you Staying in adult consciousness, which I believe helps to support increasing psychobiological capacity.
have open heartedness, when you love things deeply and live life deeply, when you lose things it is painful.
KT Yeah.
Brad But I think the piece that maybe we can continue to work on and you can continue to work on with James is the
piece that the strategies that you use to manage the heartbreak are no longer really useful strategies.
KT Yes, that's so true. Those feel like I'm super glued to them. And so I think ... yeah, you're so right. They're not
working for me even though I don't know a different way necessarily and so I just am like, "I'll just keep doing
this." But it keeps me cynical and bitter and I know that that's not who I am when I let myself be here. But then it
just becomes habit to be like, "I don't want to do any of it."
Brad You made this movement like on your heart like when I just like let myself be here, like I'm curious what it was Pillar #4: Reflecting Psychobiological Shifts. Something in her gesture and the words felt significant to me, so I
like as you just, even that phrase, just let myself be here, like what it was like for you to notice that? wanted to check in with her.
KT In counseling James will help me think of times where I felt in my true self and whole and alive, all these things,
and there are a few where it's like, "Oh, I didn't have to earn anything, I didn't have to prove anything, I didn't
have to accomplish anything or be attached to other people that I saw as valuable, and I was alive." And then the
complex comes into place where I'm like, "Those are such few and far between moments and you will lose out
on what you need to be doing in life." Or I'm just like, "But that's like you can't live there forever because then
you won't get things done, you won't be motivated, you won't be successful, you won't be all these things." So
then the voice of like, "But that's not how we do it in my family." And so even if it's so good to have a moment
here, it's I hope that at some point I can learn to see the value in that versus just being like, "Well, that's cute, but
that's not what's valuable in this world."
Brad So in that moment you're kind of choosing to value these family beliefs over what feels most authentic to you. Back to reflecting the bind. It's been so unconscious so this work to support increased self-awareness is a big
part of Pillar #3: Reinforcing Agency.
KT Yeah. Yeah, I think, again, it goes back to then I will be alone if I choose that. There's this image that I use a lot in Reflecting shame-based identifications about lack of value and worthlessness again. And at the same time, the
counseling where I'm like, "I want to be at the big table," with like all of my uncles, aunts, parents, brother, desire to be "at the big table".
cousins who are all very driven and successful and they have a lot to talk about and then I Christmas I just sit
there so quiet and I'm just like, "I have nothing to offer." And so there is this fear that if I let my true self become
valuable to me then I will not be valuable here. Like at the table, in life I won't. Anyways, so I think there's
another fear that holds me back.
Brad And if you're not valuable, then you'll be alone. Reflecting concisely the bind.
KT Yes. And I think I really care what people think too, especially in my family or my uncles and parents, where I'm
like, "I don't want to be a disappointment to all of us." Or to be the one that they're like, "Oh, and then she kind
of just, she got really emotional and like whatever." Ugh, thinking about that I'm like, "That would be hard." But
then it's hard because then when I'm ... like I live in Nashville and then my family lives here and I'm learning
these things here and it feels like it shifting the dial back, but then ... anyways, that's like a hard dichotomy to
where I'm just like, "I want to be accepted here and important in my family," and then that pattern isn't working
either so then ... and I'm seeing this pattern like true self stuff start to kind of make life feel like it's coming back
to life. So that is confusing to sit in the middle of that.
Brad So at least if we just kind of focus on what you're doing in Nashville, it seems like you're moving in a direction Trying to pull the thread of agency out of this.
where you are feeling more connected to your authentic life?

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 KT Yeah, starting to. It's definitely a slow process. And I definitely feel myself questioning if I can trust it for sure. Interesting language she used about her "protector", which I had not really heard her use before.
And I think a lot of that stems to I don't trust myself, as in like if the true self is this little girl and like, "She can't
do this, like she is a child and she needs guidance and help." And then this protector person comes into play and
I'm just like, "All right, now they've got it."
Brad What if the true self isn't either of those and this piece that you said before is just about the longing to feel more Bringing it back to the contract, her intention, about her desire to feel more fully alive.
alive? What if that's really more the true self here?
KT Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. That, I have not thought about that.
Brad What's it like to think about that now? Pillar #4: Reflecting Psychobiological Shifts
KT It's helped. I mean, it's so helpful. I think this is such an off the cuff comment but maybe this like true self that
I'm talking to is a little girl. Dang, see the tears come? But maybe it's because that's when I stopped believing in
myself and shifted into other like, "I need to be impressive." And so maybe that's part of the true self that I'm
talking to because I'm like, "She got stuck at like five years old and she didn't grow up." I don't know what, even
if that fits or if that's something that happens. But, yeah, when you said maybe it's something else I'm like, "Oh,
she's not maybe the fullest part, she's just a part of it."
Brad Yeah, I think that, to me that makes a lot of sense.
KT Yeah. And then maybe these tools are helping her grow up too. I don't know. In like the right way instead of
kind of ...
Brad Yeah, instead of the way that you have to accommodate or adjust your authentic self just to stay in relationship. Helping her finish this sentence which relates back to the dilemma we've been working on throughout this
session.
KT Yeah.
Brad Because that's never really going to be successful. There's always going to be a little bit of adjustment you have I am trying to subtly differentiate the adjustment that may need to happen from adult consciousness to
to do in a relationship, but if you have to like disconnect from yourself to keep in a relationship that's not going disconnecting from her authentic self (child consciousness).
to be a healthy pattern.
KT Yeah.
Brad And it sounds like in Nashville you're really moving in that direction. I mean, you're really creating a life for Reinforcing her movement toward separation-individuation, using the behavior of being in Nashville as the
yourself that sounds like it's going to be more aligned with that. There was a famous psychologist, he said, "The external manifestation of this.
most difficult thing for a client is to go home for Christmas."
KT Yeah.
Brad It's like someone who's doing work and then they go back to their family, because it's like that's where it all got Again, another bit of normalization here. I have been feeling strong connection survival style themes throughout
created. And it's very challenging for people that live still in their family system or in town to kind of do this our session and the outside looking in piece can be very strong, so I wanted to reiterate the reality that she is
work and then also stay in this relationship. I mean, we hope that it can work, but it's tricky for a lot of people. clearly not the only person who experiences this.
You're not the only one with that, you know?
KT Yeah. Ooh, it is ... I really was like, "I don't have many problems with my family," and then I'm like, "Ha, okay,
yes, I can see some." So that's been a realization for sure.
Brad Yeah, and a child doesn't know how to be authentic and be in relationship. They have to choose one or the other, Naming the core dilemma for the child.
and they're always going to choose the relationship.
KT I've never thought about that. Why is that?
Brad Why? Because children don't have the capacity ... like let's say they wanted to be their authentic self they would Psychoeducation.
be potentially rejected from their family. And like people that try to show up in a certain way with their family
even as adults they can get rejected, but a child has no capacity to have that rejection because you can't just as a
two years old pack your stuff up and go live somewhere else. It's like it doesn't work that way.
KT That's really interesting. So we all do that. Sweet question, which may reflect a bit more self-compassion.
Brad Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we all ... on some level, we're all in the same conflict, like how do we stay in our Continuing to reflect the bind she's in, and that she shares with so many people.
authentic self and stay close in relationships that are most important for us?
KT Yeah. I wish that there was like a guide book about that in life that everyone got when they are born.
Brad Well, there is, and again, I'm not sure if this is good news or bad news, but where it is, is right in here. Pillar #3: Reinforcing Agency.
KT Hmm. Yes, okay. That makes sense. Yeah. I love the thought of someone just being like, "I can fix this for you." Self-blame and self-shame are clearly blocks.
And then like, "Great, amazing." And then I wouldn't have to get to know myself is what it comes down to. But
I'm hearing and I'm encouraged by this conversation too just because I think ... it helps me not ... it kind of
alleviates some ... hate feels like a strong word, but like whatever is close to that, about the whole process,
because it feels like I just want to blame myself. And that also keeps me from moving forward.
Brad Exactly. You know, that was the second piece. I'm glad you brought that up, the second piece. So let's go back to Broadening the psychoeducation, which also serves to thread together things I have observed from her - just
the first piece, a child, let's say a really young child, they're in this impossible situation. If they want to be doing it at a distance.
authentic, they have to make a choice - they can either be authentic and be alone or they can stay in the
relationship and disconnect from their authenticity. Well, what's a great way to disconnect from our
authenticity? Is to shame and attack ourselves. And so every time we shame and we judge ourselves and we
attack ourselves and hate on ourselves it's actually serving that old fear of loss to protect us against
[unclear/cross talking 48:46]
KT Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah.

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 Brad And that's why it's so hard to change shame and self hatred. You can't just like one day wake up and say, "I'm
going to tell myself I love myself." It doesn't work that way, because it's so deep inside of us.
KT Yeah. Which was it a helpful tool at some point?
Brad Yes. This is reality for a child - in NARM, we view self-shaming as part of a survival strategy.
KT See, that (shit?) gets so blurry where it's like now all of a sudden ... that maybe what you said is like it worked at
some point, your defenses, and then now they're not serving you. It's a similar thing.
Brad Similar thing, exactly the same, yeah. On some level ... I know it doesn't make sense from here looking back on it,
but for the child it made total sense. We harm ourselves to help ourselves, if that makes sense.
KT Yeah.
Brad Remember that movie that came out like 10 years ago? It was a true story about this guy who got his arm
trapped in this boulder.
KT Yes, 127 Hours.
Brad Yeah, exactly. Well, he ended up having a horrible experience, he had to take a knife and cut his arm off. And it's More psychoeducation and normalization. This is all in service of structuralization. I don't want to go any
like in some way that's what we do as children, it's like when we're trapped we have to hurt ourselves to save deeper with her, instead, I am focusing on supporting her self-structure, that may lead to her being able to
ourselves. processing her intense emotional internal experience at some later session.
KT Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Brad But the problem ... the difference between that and our psychology is that we don't want to continue doing that
as we get older, you know?
KT Yeah.
Brad That made sense when we were young, but it doesn't make sense anymore. In fact, it drives us to depression and Linking it to her current challenges, the "block".
all of that stuff that you've been dealing with.
KT Yeah. So then it takes ... how do you realize when it stops? How do you realize when ... I guess it's stuff like
counseling and all these things that we're talking about. But are those things helpful to have to notice that?
Because then I'm saying like, "How do I know that?"
Brad Well, but I don't think you give yourself enough credit because I think you know it a lot more. I mean, I've been I am reflecting the strengths that I see that she might not see clearly for herself. Yes, she clearly has a lot more
very impressed just by like how much you're able to track all these different strategies you use for a lot of ... it work to do, but we don't want to collude with minimizing the progress (nor do we want to cheerlead if it's
goes back to the mountain thing, like for a lot of people that takes years for them to become aware of some of inauthentic).
these patterns. Some people never become aware of them.
KT Yeah.
Brad And it's a little bit of hard at first because once you become aware of it, it's a little bit like more painful in a
certain way, because avoiding is a good pattern because it like numbs everything.
KT Yes.
Brad Denial numbs everything. But once ... so there's like an initial feeling, like every time I've noticed that you've I'm now bringing this a bit closer to her present experience, to see how she might be relating to herself now.
gotten a little close like you have emotion that comes up, but then once you get on the other side of that you get Also, reinforcing the support she's already setting up for herself, which includes seeing me here.
to connect more to that authentic aliveness that you're looking for. It's just, it's about having good support, you
have to have good support to kind of help you get to the other side of that.
KT Got you, okay.
Brad And again, I think you're already far down that road, just it takes time. I mean, these patterns got developed over
many years so it takes time to unlearn them.
KT Yeah. And then it maybe makes sense why ... is this that we're talking about, with the second thing, is this the
grief cycle part of it?
Brad It is part of it.
KT Okay. Because I think when I'm listening to you talk about how it takes a long time I'm like, "But then I'll be Nice way of saying it, "the hope is that you accept it"
angry at all of it." And then you like shift into these different spaces where maybe the hope is that you accept it,
something like that.
Brad Yeah, actually that is exactly true. It's just we can't make it happen, we can't make acceptance happen. But yeah, Pillar #3: Reinforcing Agency.
you're right, it is true. That's kind of at some point we learned how to be in relationship to these feelings from a
different perspective. Instead of shaming and hating ourselves for them we started to be like, "Oh, they had a
value, they had a purpose. They're no longer really serving that purpose. But they're still here, and maybe I can
relate to it a little bit differently that's not so painful." And again, I see you doing that already, and I know
there's, there's more to do. And James will be there to help you. And if you want to meet with me again, we can
do tha, we can talk about that.
KT Amazing. Yeah. Okay, I do this, I'm like, "Is this Kosher?" But have you done that and did it ... was it just so hard?
Brad Well, there's two parts of the question - have I done this? Yes, I've done this and I continue to do it. We're always I am comfortable here with self-disclosure. I can empathize with her connection survival style pattern and she's
kind of a work in progress. And so there's always going to be territory that you bump up against that you're like, asking as a human to human, and I do have experience with this that I am comfortable sharing.
"Oh, I thought I had resolved that, but ..." So yes. For me the second one is it wasn't hard for me. For me what's
harder is blocking against it. Because like I'm the type of person, and everyone's different a little bit, but like I
would rather just like get the shots than to like deal with the illness and stuff. You know what I mean?
KT Yeah.

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 Brad Like, I'm the kind of person that like I would rather just face it and deal with it than blocking against something
that takes a lot of energy to do.
KT Yeah. So you saw ... it's helpful talking to people kind of a few steps ahead, and so you saw the value in like It's true, when we didn't have adults to model ourselves after as children, we didn't fully learn what it means to
getting the shot. be fully human. So therapists can model to some extent when we're authentic and genuine with our clients.
Brad Yeah, which, again, you've already been doing. I mean, you've been getting support for last couple of years. And
you've been facing a lot of tough stuff already. And it sounds like it's got ... I know not every day is better, but it
sounds like on a whole maybe you're moving in the right direction.
KT Yeah. Okay. It's funny that like sometimes we just do not see it for ourselves. Interesting reflection.
Brad Which is another strategy. Part of Pillar #3 - I want to reflect agency now to continue supporting her increasing self-awareness.
KT Yeah, okay.
Brad It's amazing. Like, you can see it in your friends and you can see it, but as soon as it comes to you it's like ... yeah, Again, this is a bit of self-disclosure. It's just my sense, perhaps I'm wrong here, but my sense is that she has
that's a very common strategy, that we dismiss the growth that we've done. And I didn't know you a couple made significant progress, though of course she's still struggling. From my perspective, she has more capacity
years ago, but I can tell just by getting to know you in the last hour like you have a lot of capacities you've than she gives herself credit for.
developed for yourself, and those are going to be really useful moving forward.
KT Okay, that's encouraging.
Brad Well, we're going to have to wrap up today, but I really appreciate you and getting to know you and ...
KT Yes, thank you so much for this.
Brad Yeah. And I hope that you and James can continue working on this and maybe you and I can revisit at some
point.
KT Yeah, that sounds great. I really appreciate seriously this whole ... he has helped give me tools ... give me hope Nice human to human sharing which feels touching.
again. I just have the utmost respect for everything y'all do. It really matters. So thanks for even doing this. This
is so great.
Brad Thank you. I really appreciate that. And best to you.
KT You too. Okay, I'll please talk to you again pretty soon.
Brad That sounds great.
KT Thanks. Bye.
Brad Take care. Bye.
KT Thank you.

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