KPS7, Palm Springs, California

INTERVIEW OF RON DE WOLFE

July 14, 1983; 8:20 a.m.
By: Ed Kibbey & Stan Lane, DJ's

DJ = Disk Jockey (first DJ voice)'

DJ #2 = Disk Jockey (second DJ voice)
RD = Ron DeWolfe

DJ: . . and the Church of Scientology, and if you followed

the story at all you've heard some of the publicity centering
around whether or not L. Ron is still amoung the living and,
L. Ron Hubbard's son, Ron Jr., who is, I guess these days
being called Ron DeWolfe. And Ron DeWolfe is on the line with
us this morning to update us on his attempt to find out about
his dad, to control his father's estate and just to give us
some input on just who L. Ron Hubbard really is and why.
Ron, thank you for joining us.
RD: -Good morning. Thank you for having me.
DJ: Appreciate you're being on the air. Now, when was the
interview you did. Was it recent Penthouse interview?
RD: It was in the June issue.
DJ: OK, that was pretty recent. June issue. And according to
the wireless here they quote you--and I didn't see it, didn't
read the interview--but it says that amoung other things your
father was kind of a, well, flounder?
RD: Very much so.
DJ: Tell us a little bit about that.
RD: Well, he was deeply involved in the personal use of drugs,

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black magic and what have you, throughout his early life,
and it continued up to the time I left at least. And also
he was involved in associations with organized crime and ah,
which, by the way, have come out now in indictments, I believe
in Arizona. So he was a bigger than life fellow that sort of
involved himself in just about everything.
DJ: Ron, when did the break happen between you and your dad?
He's obviously a very bright man, written many books, created
this--I don't know if he calls it a religion or following or
whatever it is--the Church of Scientology. What caused the
two of you go so such separate ways and to end up on opposite
ends of-of things here?
RD: Well, I left in 1959 and I got pretty tired of all of
his involvement with black magic, drugs, his fraud and decep-
tion involved in what he was doing; the fact that Scientology
didn't, didn't work as stated and ah, that's why I basically
left.
DJ: If, indeed, Scientology does not work as stated, what makes
it work, what makes it go. Why are they so rich and why do
they have so many members?
RE: Well, it's the granddaddy of all cults, and Dianetics
the first book, Dianetics The Modern Science Of Mental Health
in 1950 was the first do-it-yourself psychotherapy, and then
it promises people a great deal of power and also they have
gone to great lengths to silence any critics or dissidents
and particularly the press and the radio and TV, and that
sort of thing over the last 30 some odd years, so people didn't
really learn the truth until they got rather deeply into it and

left. There's probably far more on the outside now then there

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are on the inside.
DJ: Is it a costly religion for the person who takes part
in it?
RD: Oh, very much sc. Recent evidence is shown that there's
been some people that have paid as much as $900,000; some of
the auditing goes as high as $300 an hour or more. The average
would probably be somewhere between $5,000 and $25,000.
DJ: There has been recent, on this same sort of subject money,
and Scientologists. There was a recent story a year or two
ago in the Riverside area where they--I, correct me if I am
wrong, but my recollection of it is--they actually caught
some Scientology higher-ups defrauding savings and loans and
banks. They would go make a loan and then cut out on the loan
after they got the money and there was, there was some problems
with that. Do you recall that?
RD: Ah yes, and one of the more recent stories too is that in
the St. Petersburg Times in St. Petersburg, Florida, broke a
story where they finally uncovered the root of millions of
dollars that were coming from the non-profit corporations
through a dummy corporation and into Liberia into my father's
personal bank accounts, many millions of dollars.
DJ: Where are you with your father now? You went to court to
try to prove that he was either dead or unfit to take care
of himself and you wanted to take control of his so-called
fortune. Apparently the court didn't see it your way.
Where are you in that battle?
RD: Well, the court decided that my father was not missing.
Of course, no one really knows where he is at, ah, except a
small group of people around him, but that particular decision
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 -

really opened up a terrible Pandora's box for him in that it

now, in the legal sense, makes him quite reachable so that,
for us anyway, was ah, step one was to achieve a decision of
whether he was missing or not and then now we're involved in
preparing step two which is further litigation.
DJ: And Ron, your claim is what; that the, that the Scientology
authorities and leaders have basically taken over his millions
and his fortunes and are calling the shots and are controlling
what is. his/yours as his son?
RD: That's true. We're dealing here with assets probably in
the neighborhood of a billion dollars, which isn't bad for a
broke science fiction writer in 1949 to wind up with a billion
dollar worth of assets. So, this is where we're at now is to
getting those assets uncovered and to stop the dissipation and
the continued misuse of them.
DJ: If he,_indeed, is alive, well and has most of his faculties
there isn't really much you can do about it, is there?
RD: Well, in that sense, on the previous petition, no, but
there are many legal remedies. It's very much like a David
and Goliath situation with me--I mean when you have dozens_of
lawyers and thousands of followers and a billion dollars to
play with, it's sort of an up-hill battle, but very much like
Terry Moore and the Howard Hughes situation, she fought that
for 30 years and she finally won out through many different

court cases.
DJ: What right have you to any of this money?
RD: Well, as an heir and as a son, plus I helped put the
whole darn thing together in, in early fifties, and the--

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DJ: You mean at one time you were a Scientologist and were
compatible with your father in terms of his views?
RD: Oh, very much so. I was Director of Training, helped
put together a lot of the courses and a lot of the basic
techniques and I was deeply involved from 1952 to 1959.
DJ: Is it phoney?
RD: Yes. There's been just absolutely thousands of affidavits
and testimony in dozens of legal cases over the years, parti-
cularly in the last 3 or 4 years which have attested to that.
DJ: Does your father and his followers know it's phoney?
RD: I think so, but they keep, they keep following on.
DJ: Well, with that kind of income I can see, you know there's
a lot of reason to keep the plow going through the field. The
reason I ask it in that manner, it would seem to me then what
you're claiming is that it's simply fraudulent.
RD: Yes, and again, this is being proven over and over in
court. Over the last few weeks and months they've lost some
quite major court cases, particularly back East.
DJ: I was talking to a fellow the other day, I can't remember
who it even was, but he was saying that he been-worked in an
office building in LA, and there was a Scientology setting
there near his building, and he'd walked to lunch and every
day there would be somebody out there on the street from
the Scientology group trying to talk to him, and it became
just sort of a cat and mouse issue. They would debate and
argue and discuss. What would somebody do if they ran into
a Scientologist? The Scientology argument is firm and sharp
and well thought out. I've never met a Scientologist yet

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that didn't seem bright and accurate and aware and all this
stuff. What would you recommend somebody do if they meet a
Scientologist and start talking to them?
RD: Well, I certainly would keep your money in your pocket.
You start out with, as I said, Dianetics and, and if you go
any further into it you take some tests which pretty well
prove conclusively that you're absolutely psycho and if you
don't get help immediately you're going to really hurt some-
body or yourself oneti--very soon. And it starts out with
just a few dollars, sometimes it's free, and then the next
level or the next activity is a few more bucks and a few
more bucks so to the point where pretty soon you're into it
up to your eyeballs and ah, because they keep in it very
accurate track of your life and they really investigate it
a great deal and ask you a lot of questions, and they keep
records of it, and if you get too far out of line then they
waive it in front of your face and say "Well if you talk
we're gonna let all of this stuff we know about you known."
DJ: You mean they actually black mail people in a sense?
RD: Yes, very much so. This is, it is called the "fair
game" policy in which people's files, records and every last
detail of their life is aired if you don't toe the mark.
DJ: Rmmm. What is Dianetics?
RD: Well, Dianetics is, was the beginning of it all, and it
basically says that you have moments of pain and unconsciousness
called "engrams" and the purpose of Dianetics, or the attempt
is anyway, to eradicate these painful moments so that it can
release your various abilities and powers.

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DJ: And then it's developed from there. Are you in any
danger? You imply in the interview in Penthouse apparently
that you feel like some people from the organization would
like to not have you amoung the living.
RD: Well, I've been an object of "fair game" policy of my
father for the last 25 years, so I've had to sometimes be
rather swift on my feet.
DJ: What are you saying Ron?
RD: Well, the problem my father has always had with me is that
I knew the facts of his actual life and activies. 99% of what
my father ever wrote or said about himself is totally untrue
and most of that is now coming out and proven. And --
DJ: OK, but you're saying your father's tried to what,
do you in?
RD: Yup. And he's also tried to keep me shut-up with fear
force and intimidation and that sort of thing over the last
quarter century.
DJ: Where are you now?
RD: I'm here in Carson City, and ah, Carson City, Nevada.
DJ: Next court stop for this is when?
RD: It should be in the next few weeks.
DJ: OK. Well, listen, thank you for taking time to share
your perspective and your side of the story with us, and good

luck.
RD: And you're most welcome. Thank you.
DJ: Thank you sir. Ron DeWolfe, son of L. Ron Hubbard.
DJ #2: And I think we ought to emphasis that little comment
that you made in the closing--his side of the story.

DJ: Sure, no question.

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DJ #2: This is certainly one side of the story and many
of the things, at least according to court document's, and
so on, that he claims he has been yet unable to prove.
DJ: Yea, yea.
DJ #2: So, it may or it may not be true, but it's certainly
his word spoken at this time only.