11/30/2014

GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy

30November2014

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ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs
$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy

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InadditiontothevehiclesintroductioninJapan,Toyota
launchedtheMiraiafourdoor,midsizefuelcellsedan
withperformancethatfullycompeteswithtraditional
internalcombustionenginesinLosAngelesontheeveof
theLosAngelesAutoShow.Thehydrogenfuelcellelectric
Mirai.Clicktoenlarge.
vehiclerefuelsin35minutes,travelsupto300miles
(482km)onafulltank,andwillbeavailabletocustomersinCaliforniabeginning
infall2015.Additionalmarketswillfollow,trackingtheexpansionofaconvenient
hydrogenrefuelinginfrastructure.
TheMiraiusestheToyotaFuelCellSystem(TFCS),whichfeaturesbothfuelcell
technologyandhybridtechnology,andincludesproprietaryToyotadeveloped
componentsincludingthefuelcell(FC)Stack,FCboostconverter,andhigh
pressurehydrogentanks.TheTFCSismoreenergyefficientthaninternal
combustionenginesandemitsnoCO2orsubstancesofconcern(SOCs)when
driven.ThesystemacceleratesMiraifrom060in9.0secondsanddeliversa
passingtimeof3secondsfrom2540mph.Fuelconsumptionfiguresaretocome.

Miraipowertrain.Clicktoenlarge.

ToyotaFCStack.ThenewToyotaFCStackachievesamaximumoutputof114
kW(153hp).Electricitygenerationefficiencyhasbeenenhancedthroughtheuse
of3Dfinemeshflowchannels.Thesechannelsaworldfirst,accordingtoToyota
arearrangedinafinethreedimensionallatticestructureandenhancethe
dispersionofair(oxygen),therebyenablinguniformgenerationofelectricityon
cellsurfaces.This,inturn,providesacompactsizeandahighlevelof
performance,includingthestacksworldleadingpoweroutputdensityof3.1kW/L
(2.2timeshigherthanthatofthepreviousToyotaFCHVadvlimitedleasemodel),
or2.0kW/kg.
Eachstackcomprises370(singlelinestacking)
cells,withacellthicknessof1.34mmandweight
of102g.

ThecompactMiraiFCstackgenerates
about160timesmorepowerthanthe
residentialfuelcellsonsaleinJapan.

Theamountofwateronfuelcellelectrolytemembraneshasasubstantial
influenceonelectricitygenerationefficiency.Controloftheamountofwateris
carriedoutusinganinternalcirculationsystemforcirculatingthewatercreated
whengeneratingelectricitymeaningtheToyotaFCStack,unlikesystemsusedin
allotherpreviousToyotafuelcellvehicles,doesnotrequiretheuseofa
humidifier.
Thestack,withasignificantlyreducedsize,fitsunderthefrontdriverand
passengerseats.

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy
FCBoostConverter.Anewcompact(13liter),highefficiency,highcapacity
converterhasbeendevelopedtoboostpowergeneratedintheToyotaFCStackto
650volts.Increasingthevoltagehasmadeitpossibletoreducethesizeofthe
electricmotorandthenumberofToyotaFCStackfuelcells,leadingtoasmaller,
higherperformanceToyotaFuelCellSystem,therebyreducingsystemcosts.
Theboostconverterismountedjustforwardofthefuelcellstack.
HighpressureHydrogenTanks.Twotankswith
athreelayerstructuremadeofcarbonfiber
reinforcedplasticandothermaterialsareusedto
storehydrogenat70MPa(approximately700bars
or10,000psi).Thethreelayersare:

Ourfuelcellvehiclerunsonhydrogen
thatcanbemadefromvirtually
anything,evengarbage.
AkioToyoda,ToyotaMotor
CorporationPresident/CEO

Innerlayer:plasticliner(preventshydrogenleakage)
Middlelayer:carbonfiberreinforcedplastic(structuralelement)
Surfacelayer:glassfiberreinforcedplastic(protectsoutersurfacefrom
abrasion)
ComparedtothehighpressurehydrogentanksusedintheToyotaFCHVadv
model,tankstoragehasbeenincreasedbyapproximately20%whilebothweight
andsizehavebeenreducedtoachieveaworldleading5.7wt%.
Thefronttankholds60.0liters,thereartank,62.4liters.Totalhydrogenstorage
massisabout5kg.

Underthehood.(Powercontrolunitontop,tractionmotorbeneath.)Clicktoenlarge.

Electrictractionmotorandbattery.Currentgenerationhybridcomponentswere
usedextensivelyinthefuelcellpowertrain,includingtheelectricmotor,power
controlandmainbattery.Theelectrictractionmotordelivers113kW(152hp)
and335Nm(247lbft)oftorque.ToyotaisusingaNiMHbatteryintheMirai.
Safety.ToyotabeganfuelcelldevelopmentinJapanintheearly1990sandhas
developedaseriesoffuelcellvehicles,subjectingthemtomorethanamillion
miles(1.6millionkm)ofroadtesting.Inthelasttwoyearsalone,fuelcelltest
vehicleshaveloggedthousandsofmilesonNorthAmericanroads.Thisincludes
hottestinginDeathValley,coldtestinginYellowknife,Canada,steepgradehill
climbsinSanFranciscoandhighaltitudetripsinColorado.TheToyotadesigned
carbonfiberhydrogentankshavealsoundergoneextremetestingtoensuretheir
strengthanddurabilityinacrash.
ThisextendedlegacyofresearchanddevelopmentisreflectedinMiraissafety
andreliability.AtToyotasadvancedHigashifujiSafetyCenter,thevehiclehas
beensubjectedtoextensivecrashtestingtoevaluateadesignspecifically
intendedtoaddressfrontal,sideandrearimpactsandtoprovideexcellent
protectionofvehicleoccupants.Ahighlevelofcollisionsafetyhasalsobeen
achievedtohelpprotectthefuelcellstackandhighpressuretanksagainstbody
deformation.
Thehighpressurehydrogentankshaveexcellenthydrogenpermeationprevention

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy
performance,strength,anddurability.Hydrogensensorsprovidewarningsand
canshutofftankmainstopvalves.Thehydrogentanksandotherhydrogen
relatedpartsarelocatedoutsidethecabintoensurethatifhydrogenleaks,itwill
dissipateeasily.
Thevehiclestructureisdesignedtodisperseandabsorbimpactenergyacross
multiplepartstoensureahighimpactsafetyperformancethatprotectsthe
ToyotaFCStackandhighpressurehydrogentanksduringfrontal,sideorrear
impacts.
TheToyotaFCStackframeisconstructedfromanewlydevelopedthermoplastic
carbonfiberreinforcedplastic,whichislight,strong,andeasilymassproduced.
ThisprotectstheToyotaFCStackbyabsorbingimpactshocksfromroadbumps
andotherroadinterference.
Inadditiontothephysicalsafetymeasures,theMiraifeaturesafullrangeof
advanceddriveassistanceandsafetysystemsappropriatefornextgeneration
vehicles.
APrecollisionSystem(withmillimeterwaveradar)helpspreventcollisions
orreducecollisiondamagethroughalertsandbrakecontrolifahigh
likelihoodofcollisionisdetected.
ALaneDepartureAlertsystemusesacameratodetectwhiteoryellowlane
markingsandalertsthedriverwhenthevehicleisabouttodeviatefromits
lane.
DrivestartControllimitssuddenstartsorsuddenaccelerationduringgear
shiftoperation.
ABlindSpotMonitorusesradartodetectvehiclesinadjacentlanesand
helpsrearviewconfirmationwhenchanginglanes.

Design.LikethePrius,ToyotadesignedtheMiraitobeimmediatelyrecognizable.
Anewtechniquehasbeenemployedinthefrontfacedesigntoemphasizetheleft
andrightgrillesthatdrawinairfortheoxygensupplyandforFCsystemcooling.
Thenovelfrontfaceisintendedtounderscorethevehiclesindividuality.
Toyotasaysthatthesideprofileevokestheflowingshapeofadropletofwaterto
expressthevehiclescharacteristicofdrawinginairandemittingwater.Theroof
siderailsandhoodappeartopopoutofthebodytocreatetheimpressionofa
lowtothegroundvehiclewhilecommunicatingafuturisticfeeling.
Therearofthevehiclepresentsaboldprofilewithatrapezoidalshapeextending
fromthelicenseplategarnishtothebottomofthebumpercornersandouttoward
thewheels,whilethetopofthebumperemphasizeswidthandexpressesa
powerfullystablestance.Itisalsotocreateanagileandcleanimpressionofair
passingthroughandunderthebumper.

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy

Theheadlightsexhibithightechandsophisticatedluxurythroughanoveldesign
thatpresentsanultrathinprofilewithaninlinearrangementoffourLEDlights
plusvisibleheatsinksandotheropticalequipment.Thefrontturnsignalsand
clearancelightsareseparatefromtheheadlights,contributingtoanultrathin
headlightprofileatthesametimeasmergingwiththesidegrilles.Thiscreatesan
advancedcleandesignwithaerodynamicsthatimproveairflow.
TheMiraicomeswith17inchaluminumwheelsthathavebeenmadelighterusing
anengravingprocess.
Handlingstabilityandquietness.Handlingstabilityandridecomfortareboth
improvedthroughthelocationofmajorpartssuchastheToyotaFCStackand
highpressurehydrogentankscentrallyunderthefloortoachievealowcenterof
gravityandsuperiorfrontandrearweightdistribution,aswellastheuseofa
highrigiditybody,whichfeaturesenhancedrigidityaroundtherearsuspension.
Thefullunderfloorcoverandaerodynamicallydesignedclearancelightsreduce
windresistanceandcontributetoimprovedfuelefficiencyandhandlingstability.
Aerofinsemployedatthesideoftherearcombinationlampsalsoimprove
straightdrivingstability.
Outstandingquietnessisachievedbyelectricmotordriveatallspeedsand
reducedwindnoise,plusfullsealingofallbodyparts,andtheuseofsound
absorbingandsoundblockingmaterialsoptimallyarrangedaroundthecabin,
includingtheuseofnoisereducingglassforthewindshieldandalldoorwindows.
Brakesupportmodemakesefficientuseofregenerativebrakingandimproves
brakingperformancewhenthedriverwishestogreatlyreducevehiclespeedsuch
aswhennegotiatinglongdownhillsectionsofroad.
Largeexternalpowersupplysystem.TheMiraiwillcomewithapowersupply
systemwithalargecapacityofapproximately60kWhandmaximumpower
supplycapabilityof9kWforuseduringpoweroutages,suchasthosefollowing
naturaldisasters.(AfterDC/ACconversionbypowersupplyunit.Powersupply
capacityvariesaccordingtopowersupplyunitconversionefficiency,amountof
remaininghydrogenandpowerconsumption.)Whenapowersupplyunitis
connected,itconvertstheDCpowerfromtheCHAdeMOpowersocketlocated
insidethetrunktoACpowerandcanpoweravehicletohome16systemora
vehicletoloadsystem.Consumerelectronicscanalsobeconnecteddirectlyand
usedfromtheinterioraccessorysocket(AC100V,1,500W).
SalesandMarketing.IntheUS,customerswillbeabletotakeadvantageof
Mirais$499permonth/36monthleaseoption,with$3649dueatleasesigning,or
purchasethevehiclefor$57,500.Withcombinedstateandfederalincentivesof
$13,000availabletomanycustomers,thepurchasepricecouldpotentiallyfallto
below$45,000.
Thevehiclewillbematchedbyacomprehensive,360degreeOwnership
Experienceofferingarangeofservices,including:
24/7conciergeservice,withcallsansweredbyadedicatedfuelcell
representative
24/7enhancedroadsideassistance,includingtowing,battery,flattire
assistance,tripinterruptionreimbursement,andloanervehicle
ThreeyearsofToyotaCaremaintenance,whichcoversallrecommended
factorymaintenance,upto12,000milesannually
Eightyear/100,000milewarrantyonfuelcellcomponents
EntuneandthreeyearsofcomplimentarySafetyConnect,including
hydrogenstationmapappand

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy
Complimentaryhydrogenfuelforuptothreeyears.
Buildingaconvenientrefuelinginfrastructure.Inaddition,Toyotacontinuesto
supportthedevelopmentofaconvenientandreliablehydrogenrefueling
infrastructure.ResearchattheUniversityofCaliforniaIrvinesAdvancedPower
andEnergyProgram(APEP)hasfoundthat68stations,locatedatthepropersites,
couldhandleaFCVpopulationofatleast10,000vehicles.Earlierpost.Those
stationsareontheirwaytobecomingareality.Bytheendof2015,3of
Californias9activehydrogenstationsand17newlyconstructedstationsare
scheduledtobeopenedtothegeneralpublic,with28additionalstationssetto
comeonlinebytheendof2016,bringingtheneartermtotalto48stations.
Nineteenofthose48stationswillbebuiltbyFirstElementFuels,supportedbya
$7.3millionloanfromToyota.Thecompanyhasalsoannouncedadditionalefforts
todevelopinfrastructureinthecountrysNortheastregion.In2016,AirLiquide,in
collaborationwithToyota,istargetingconstructionof12stationsinfivestates
NewYork,NewJersey,Massachusetts,Connecticut,andRhodeIsland.
ThePriusanalogy.InboththeJapanandUSintroductionsoftheMirai,Toyota
executivescarefullydrewacomparisonbetweenthelaunchoftheMiraiandthe
developmentandlaunchofthefirstPrius.Forexample:
Aquickflashbacktotheyear2000.Iamjuststartingmynewjobas
theGMintheLosAngelesregion,ourlargestcompanyowned
distributorcoveringSouthernCalifornia.Ourfirstmajortask...launch
anewPrius,anewhybrid.Fuelisveryaffordableandthereisno
marketorawarenessforthisnewtechnology,agaselectrichybrid.
Ourdealerswereapprehensivebuttrustedourvisionandinstincts.
Weneverworkedhardertoproduce5500salesinsixmonthsinmy
life.Asyouknowby2012weweresellingover235kPriusfamily
salesayear,andithasbecomethebestsellingvehicleinCalifornia
thelasttwoyearsinarow.
Andhereweareagain,atanotherturningpointintechnology.
Launchingadisruptivetechnologyisachallenge,itstrueButwedid
learnathingortwowhenwelaunchedPrius15yearsagoWhenyou
launchanewtechnology,educationiskey.WelearnedthiswithPrius.
BillFay,GroupVicePresident,ToyotaMotorSalesandGeneral
Manager,ToyotaDivision
And:
AsJohnpointedoutinhisintroductionsofmeandChairman
Uchiyamada,wehaveworkedtogetherformanyyearsonthisvision
offuturemobilityinvolvingfirstthehybridPriusandnowthefuel
cellMirai.Icannothelpbutthinkthattosomepeople,our
collaborationouradventurousroadtripmustseemquixotic
idealismwithoutregardforpracticality.I,ofcourse,wouldnotagree
withthatbutatleastIknowwhoisDonQuixoteandwhoisSancho
Panza.
UchiyamadasansaidearlierthatHydrogen,andHydrogenfuelcell
technologywillbeasocietalandeconomicgamechangerandthatit
willbethefuelforthenextcentury.Franklyspeaking,IthinkIfeela
littlemoreoptimisticthanthat.Ibelievethistechnologyisgoingto
changeourworldandsoonerratherthanlater.That,infact,iswhy
wenamedthiscarMirai.Weseeitasthevehiclethatwillopenthe
doortofutureforToyota.
Ofcoursenoteveryoneagrees.Formanyyears,theuseofhydrogen
gastopowerautomobileshasbeenseenbymanysmartpeopleasa
foolishquest.Thatpointofviewismuchlikeopinions20yearsagoof
howthePriushybridwasnothingmorethanascienceprojectand
economicallyunfeasible.Sometimeschangecanhappenquicklya
disruptionofconventionforthebetter.Othertimes,changetakes
persistence.Andalongview.
foranyproducttorevolutionizeamarketitmustfitneatlyand
comfortablyandconvenientlyintotheeverydaylivesoftheconsumer,
accomplishingmore,withoutaskingformore,oftheowner.Forallof
itstechnicalwizardry,itszeroemissionsanditsboldstyling,itneeds
tobe,attheendofthedayaregularcar.ThatswhatmadePriusa
success.WehopethatiswhatmakesMiraiasuccessaswell.
SatoshiOgiso,ManagingOfficer,ToyotaMotorCorporation
OgisowasoneoftheoriginalengineersinthePriusprogramandlaterthechief
engineerforthePriusprogram.
And:
Priusmeansgobefore,andfornearlytwentyyears,Priuspavedthe

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy
waybydemonstratingtomainstreambuyersthatthefuturein
mobilitywouldincludeelectricmotors.ButthefuturethatPriuswent
beforewillbethecarwewilltalkabouttoday:theToyotaMirai
hydrogenfuelcellelectricvehicle.Thegaselectrichybrid
technologyinthefirstPriusblazedanewtrail,thatmanycriticssaid
couldnotbeblazed.Thehydrogenfuelcelltechnologyinthenew
Miraiwilldothesame.
TakeshiUchiyamada,ChairmanofBoard,ToyotaMotorCorporation
Expectations.DespitethetwodecadesofworkprecedingMirai,Toyotaviewsits
introductionasonlyanearlysteponamuchlongerroadthatwillentailnotjust
furthervehicledevelopment,butalsomajorprogressinhydrogenproduction,
infrastructuredevelopment,andsoon.
Initialdeliversmaybeslow,ToyotanotedinJapan,asthevehiclesaregoingto
bebuiltmeticulously.
Wearejustatthestartingpoint.Todayisnotthedayofcompletion
andperfection.Wewillcontinueoureffortswithfreshdevotion.Mirai
containstwoinnovations:innovationformobility,andinnovationto
realizeahydrogenbasedsociety.
Manychallengesstillremainbeforethesetwoinnovationscanbe
perfectedathigherlevels.Production,salesandservicesystemsall
needtobereinforcedforcustomertousethemwithasenseof
security.Despitethosechallenges,Toyotahasdecidedtointroduce
thisvehicleandtotakeastepforwardtowardmakingadifferencefor
thefuture.
MitsuhisaKato,ExecutiveVicePresident,ToyotaMotorCorp.atthe
JapanlaunchofMirai
November18,2014inFuelCells,Hydrogen|Permalink|Comments(21)|TrackBack(0)

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Comments
Thefigurethathitsmeisthestoragetankwith5.7%hydrogenbyweight.
ThatexceedstheDOE'sjustreleasedtargetfor2020of5.5%byweight!
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/11/20141117doeh2storage.html
Greatjob,Toyota.
The650Voltsusedandthatitdoesnotneedahumidifierarealsointeresting
advances.
Postedby:Davemart|November18,2014at12:54AM

Thecardoesnothaveapracticaltrunk(halfofitsspaceistakenbythehydrogen
tankandthebattery.Itcosts57.5kUSDbutonlydoes0to60in9sec.Ifyouare
luckyenoughtofindafuelstationyouwillneedtopaymoreforhydrogenthan
youpayforequivalentgasolinenottospeakofthecostofelectricity.Foracar
thatneedstoberefueledataremotepublichydrogentankitsrangeof300miles
isnotnearlyenough.Rangeanxietywillbearealproblemhere.OfcauseToyota
knowsitisahardsellandtheyonlyplantosellafewhundredofthemgloballyin
2015.Basicallyitistestingprograminthepublic.Theautoindustryisstilla
decadeawayfrommassproductionofhydrogencarsifthateverhappens.Ifthe
carcannotbemadeforthesamepriceasagasserorless(consideringits
shortcomingsrelativetogassersandBEVs)itwillfailIMO.Itcannotdoanything
betterthanagassersopeopleingeneralwillnotpaymoreforit.AtleastBEVs
canberefueledanywhere(athome95%ofthetime).Thatandlowerrefueling
costsandbettertrunkspacearethemainsellingpointsforBEVsovergassersand
fuelcellcars.
Postedby:Henrik|November18,2014at12:54AM

Thiscarhas1865Wh/kg.
Afterallowingforlossesinthefuelstackthatcomesouttoaround1100Wh/kg
batteryequivalent.
ThebestbatteriesinaBEVareintheTesla,andcomeouttoaround150Wh/kgat

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thepacklevel.
Unlessthatgapcanbeclosedvery,verysignificantlythereisaplaceforfuel
cells,butitisamovingtargetastheenergydensityofthehydrogensystemis
increasingalso.
Lithiumairorsomethingmightreducetheplaceforhydrogen,butweare
nowhereremotelynearbatterieswhichareinthesameballparkinenergy
density.
Postedby:Davemart|November18,2014at01:36AM

Wonderwhytheymadeitsoslow....
Ridiculousgrills....
Andwhycouldn'ttheydesignbettertrunkspace?
ThecomplexitydoesmakeanEVmoreappealing.
WhatburnsmeupisaheadlinethatreadFirstmassmarketzeroemissions
vehicle.Canmeguesswhenthiswillexceedthe2014Leaf'ssalesnumbers
2025?
EVshaveabigheadstart.ButatleastforCalifornianswhodon'thaveaccessto
homecharging,thisisaanoptionbetweentheLeafandTesla.
Therestofthecountrywillwaitfor2025butI'mguessingcheaperbatterieswill
comefirst.
Postedby:DavidPilati|November18,2014at03:12AM

David:
Iagreeonthegrillandtrunkspace,andtheHyundaiFCEVisfarbetterandmore
practicalinmyview.
ItisnotjustCaliforniathough,Toyotaarehelpinginthebuildof12hydrogen
stationsintheNorthEast,wherecoldweathercanmeanseverelyrestrictedrange
forBEVsinwinter,sofuelcellshavemoregoingforthem.
Asyousaythough,muchdependsonhowfastbatteriesimprove.
Postedby:Davemart|November18,2014at03:41AM

Fuelcellshavetraditionallybeenaimedatlargercars,basicallytofitthestuffin.
Toyotahavetriedtotakeitdownasize,tosomethingsimilartothePrius,andin
theprocesswiththisgenerationoftechnologyhavesignificantlycompromisedthe
car,asidefromitsweirdstyling.
However,gettingfiveyearsaheadofthegamein,forinstance,weightreduction
intheCFtankisastaggeringengineeringachievement,andsucharateof
progressexplainsToyota'senthusiasmforfuelcellscomparedtotherather
delayedprogressioninenergydensityinbatteries.
PersonallyIamcheeringbothon,andhopeforasswiftaspossibleprogressonall
fronts.
Postedby:Davemart|November18,2014at05:08AM

Thoughagain,it'sanotheryearuntilafewFCcarsMAYactuallybesoldin
CaliforniaONLYwith"therubberhitstheroad"data,perhapsduringthenext
fiveyears,willthemarketsettlefuelcellcarsanduse.
Postedby:kelly|November18,2014at06:16AM

Thoughagain,it'sanotheryearuntilafewFCcarsMAYactuallybesoldin
CaliforniaONLYwith"therubberhitstheroad"data,perhapsduringthenext
fiveyears,willthemarketsettlefuelcellcarsanduse.
Postedby:kelly|November18,2014at06:16AM

Inothernews,Toyotahassaidthatfuelcellcarswillbemoreexpensivetorefuel
thangasolinecarsfortheforseeablefuture:
http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2014/08/14/toyotaadmits

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fuelcellcarswillcostmoretofillupthanpetrolmodels/
Theyestimate$50forafulltankofH2and300milesrange.Comparethiswitha
Prius,whichischeaper,canrefuelatanygasstation,hasarangeof595miles,
andthegasolinewouldcost$18togo300miles.Withcompetitionlikethat,the
FCVcouldbeadifficultsell,eveninJapan.
Postedby:clett|November18,2014at06:34AM

Theyshouldhavemadeitmorevisuallyappealing.Itlookslikeacorollawith
flaredoutfenders.Fortheprice,andinconvenienceoffindingfuelingstations,
theyreallyshouldhavedonesomethinginterestingwiththedesign.Veryuglyin
myopinion.
Postedby:EStorageGuy|November18,2014at07:00AM

Thereissomeamazingtechnologyinthisvehicle.Mostoftheautocompaniesare
planningsometypeoffuelcellelectricvehicle(FCEV).Thoughthereisstillsome
debateabouttheHydrogeninfrastructure(boththeonboardvehicleH2storage
andthenecessaryrefuelingprocess,i.eusingcompressedH2gas).
MaybethetechnologythatGEisinvestigatingconcerningLiquidFuelCellswill
changetheperspectiveofFCEV,furtherblurringthelinesbetweenBatteryElectric
VehiclesandFCEV(reference:http://www.beilstein
journals.org/bjnano/single/articleFullText.htm?publicId=219042865153or
here:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4168903/)
Postedby:gryf|November18,2014at09:10AM

Indeed,Clett,andthere'stheWTWefficiencytoconsider.Whichburnslessfuel:
theMirairunningonH2fromSMR,oraTelsachargedonjuicefromCCGT?
Postedby:EngineerPoet|November18,2014at09:59AM

@EP:
TheMiraiisbetterWTW,byadistance,notthatthereisanyrealwayofsorting
outtheelectricityyougetfromyourwallsockettojusttunonCCGTinsteadofthe
muchmorecommonsinglecycle,withaveragenaturalgasefficiencyintheUSof
42%beforeT&Dlosses.
TheTeslahasverylowefficiencypermileforanelectriccar.
HereisORNL:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544214008573
(Followpdflink)
SowhyamIquotingalinkwhichappearstoshowtheoppositeofthatwhichIam
arguing,thatitismoreefficienttoburnNGtocreateelectricityforanEVthanto
useittomakehydrogenforaBEV?
Forastartcheckoutfig14.
TheBEVrunningonelectricityfromNGisshownasmoreefficientthantheH2
FCEV.
HowevertheTesla'susealotmorejuicethanmostBEVs,soadjustbyhowever
muchyoufeelappropriateforthat.
Therealkickerthoughisintable3,wheretheefficiencyWelltopumpofthe
hypotheticalCNGfuelcellwithonboardreformingiscitedas85%,whilsttheH2
FCEVisonly55%,IOWreforminglossesareclearlytakenoutatthatpoint.
AstoundinglyhowevertheefficiencyoftheCNGfuelcellvehicleat38.5mpge
wheretheonboardreforminghasstilltotakeplaceisshownasidenticaltotheH2
FCEVwherethereforminghasalreadytakenplace.
Ifyouputinamorerealistic5060mpgethereisonlyonewinner.
AFCEVusingreformednaturalgasismoreefficientinitsuseofthegasthanany
BEV,letalonethemoreenergyconsumingTeslas.
Postedby:Davemart|November18,2014at10:56AM

Extendedrange,veryquickrefills,bettercoldweatheroperationetcmaybe
enoughtoselectthisFCEVoveranequivalentBEVinmanyplaces.
At$42,000(NET)+freeH2forthree(3)yearsthisFCEVmaybecheaperthanan
equivalentfullyequippedBMWSeries5?

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy
MoreH2stationshavetobeinstalledbutthatwillcomeinduetime.
Postedby:HarveyD|November18,2014at12:33PM

TheBEVrunningonelectricityfromNGisshownasmoreefficient
thantheH2FCEV.
Allthosebargraphsareabithardtointerpret,andIdon'tseecitationsfortheir
sourcecalculations.
Figure14putsCNGfuelcellvehicleslightlymoreefficientthantheCH4toH2
FCEVcertainlytheheatofreformingcanbeputtobetterusethatway.The
EV+chargerusingNGpowerisgivenat~130gCO2/km,butthat'susingthe
lowballCCGTefficiencyfigureof51%giveninthepaper.Modernplantsexceed
60%.
ThisDOEoverviewshowsSMRrequiring137kBTUofNG,plus9200BTUof
electricity,toproduceanddispense116kBTU(1gge)ofH2.Ifweassumethe
same60%efficiencyoftheelectricsupply,there'sanother15.3kBTUofgas
burnedthereforatotalof152.3kBTUinput.Thepipelinetotankefficiencyis
76%.You'dneedafuelcellefficiencyof80%togettheoverallefficiencyto
60%.
Let'ssee...116kBTUofmethane@60%yields68.6kBTUor20.4kWh.Running
at380Wh/mi,thatyields53.6miles.Thisisroughlyatiebetweenyour5060
MPGeFCVandtheTesla,buttheTeslacanrunonanythingthatmakeselectricity
whileasystemrunningonSMRistiedtoNG.Plus,theTeslaModelScanseat5
adults,2kidsinjumpseats,plusbaggageinthefrunk.Advantage,Tesla.
Postedby:EngineerPoet|November18,2014at01:02PM

OnthelinesofcomparisontoTesla...060in5secvs9secs
Butfromapracticalstandpoint,anyonewithaplugathomewouldhavetoprefer
thattogoingtoahydrogenstation.A24hrhydrogenstation?Asecurelocation?
Closetohome?
AtleastnowwecanstarttohaveacomparisonbetweenEVandFCEV.Lookslike
fornow,themainFCEVadvantageisforapartmentdwellers.SureToyotais
subsidizingthecostsoifyoucangetit,itwillbecheaperthanTeslabutuglier,
slower,smaller,lessluxurious.Toyotadoeshavesomeinteresting120Vcapability
though.
Postedby:DavidPilati|November18,2014at01:17PM

@EP:
ThereisnorealwayofseparatingouttheCCGTfromthegridtousethebest
theoreticalefficiency.
WhatcouldbedonehoweverisinstallaSOFCfuelcellinthehouseorinasmall
unit,whichdoesrunat~60%efficiency,andtherestcanmostlybeusedforhot
water!
Soifyourunyourelectriccarfromahomefuelcellunit,youwouldbegetting
prettygoodefficiency!)
BTW,beingabletoseat5adults,2kidsinjumpseats,plusbaggageinthefrunk
isnotreallyasignofefficiencyincarswhichusuallycarry12people!
Postedby:Davemart|November18,2014at01:23PM

ThereisnorealwayofseparatingouttheCCGTfromthegridtouse
thebesttheoreticalefficiency.
That'sweaselwording.Justabouteverythingelse,savenuclearorwind,would
beworse.Youcan'treallyusePVbecauseyou'dneedtosizeallofyourgearfor
thenoonpeak.
AndImiscalculatedtheCO2costabove.TocalculateequivalencytotheMirai,the
Teslashouldbeallowedbetween8kg(for137kBTUofNG,assuming100%
carbonfreeelectricity)and10.5kg(coalfiredelectricity@950gCO2/kWh)for
5060miles.137kBTUthroughaCCGT@60%willdrivetheModelSroughly63
miles.
IfyouhavecarbonfreeelectricityfordirectusetheTeslacannotbebeat,period.
Justtheelectricityrequiredtoreformandpump1ggefortheMiraiwilldrivea
ModelSfor7miles.
beingabletoseat5adults,2kidsinjumpseats,plusbaggageinthe

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GreenCarCongress:ToyotaFCVMirailaunchesinLAinitialTFCSspecs$57,500or$499leaseleaningonPriusanalogy
frunkisnotreallyasignofefficiencyincarswhichusuallycarry12
people!
Soifyoudownsizedtoavehiclewithjust4seatsandaMiraisizedtrunk,you'd
havemuchlowerNGconsumptionandCO2emissionsevenifyourancompletely
onNG.
Postedby:EngineerPoet|November19,2014at12:22PM

Itisarealproblemthatthedesignofthisfuelcellcardoesnotallowforafull
sizetrunk.Sowhatcouldbedonetoremedythis?Youcan'tinsertafueltankin
thefrontofthecarasthatareaisneededascrumblezoneforcarcrashes.There
isspaceatthebackseatsbutthenthecarwouldbecomeatwoseatcarwhichis
unacceptable.TheonlysolutionIseeistodolikeTeslaandmakeathickfloorin
thecarandusethatforstoringfiveorfourlonghydrogencylindersthatgofrom
thefrontwheelstothebackwheels.Becauseofthelowerpackingefficiencyand
lowvolumetricenergydensityofthehydrogencylindersthefloorwouldneedto
betwoorthreetimesasthickasthefloorintheTesla.Thecarwouldlook
differentthanothercarsbeing10to15inchestallerthanothercarswiththe
samecabinspacebutotherwiseitwillhaveafullsizetrunk.Thefuelcellcould
stillbepackedunderthefrontseatsandthebatterypackunderthebackseats.I
alsothinkyoucouldstoremorethan5kgofhydrogeninsuchafloorbased
system.8kgwouldprobablyincreaserangeto460milesandmakeitmore
practicalaswell.Itwouldofcausecostmoretousefourorfivetanksinthefloor
raterthanjusttwotanks.However,thecurrentdesignisimpractical(limited
trunkandnotenoughrange)andaneffectiveshowstopperforfuelcellcallsso
somethingelsehastobedone.
Postedby:Henrik|November20,2014at12:18AM

Thatthickfloordesignwithgascylinderscouldalsobeusedtomakealongrange
(460miles)carthatrunoncompressednaturalgas.Suchacarwouldcostabout
10kUSDmorethananordinarygassersolelybecauseofthosetanksandevenin
massproductionbutNGisalsoonlyhalfthecostorlessofdieselorgasoline.If
thepriceofoileverreaches200USDperbarrelandstayabovethatpricesucha
NGcarcouldbecomepopular.
Postedby:Henrik|November20,2014at12:32AM

DesigningaFCVwithatrunkisnoproblemifyoureformliquidhydrocarbonfuels
intohydrogenonboard.LiquidfuelhashigherenergydensitythanCNGorH2.
Postedby:SJC|November23,2014at02:39PM
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