Insight on Coaching

Coaching Lessons from The Apprentice Transcript

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0:26

Tom Floyd

Hello everyone and welcome to Insight on Coaching.

Insight on Coaching explores the many facets, flavors, and sides of the emerging
professional field. Im Tom Floyd, Im the CEO of Insight Educational Consulting and
your host for todays show.
This week our topic is Coaching Lessons from The Apprentice. Well speak with
former contestants on The Apprentice about their experiences on this hit reality TV
show. Well also chat with experts who have summarized overall business,
leadership, and coaching lessons that have been gleaned from the show and applied
to the business community.
We have a fantastic panel of experts and coaches, as well as former contestants
from The Apprentice on our show today. Our guests include Duncan Brodie, Lauryn
Franzoni, Elizabeth Jarosz, Troy McClain, and Ann Vanino, and Ill begin today by
telling you a little bit more about each of them.
Ill start with Duncan first.
Duncan Brodie is Managing Director of Goals and Achievements Ltd. a leadership
development company that works with individuals, teams and organizations to
develop their management and leadership capability.
Duncan is also a Chartered Management Accountant (CIMA), a Certified
Professional Coach and Team Coach Facilitator.
Prior to starting his own business, he spent over 25 years in accountancy managing
and leading teams in a range of major organizations including
PricewaterhouseCoopers, Ernst & Young, Lloyds TSB and the National Health
Service in the UK.
Welcome to the show, Duncan.

1:49

Duncan Brodie

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

1:52

Tom Floyd

Our next guest Lauren Franzoni is Vice President & Executive Editor at ExecuNet, a
recognized authority in executive career development, recruitment and retention
trends.
In this capacity, she leads the firms research initiatives, website and publication
content, membership and customer acquisition; its Executive Career Management
resources and communities of interest/networking services.
Lauryn joined ExecuNet in 2004 bringing extensive experience in the specialized
information industry including content development and community building for
electronic/internet communications and print media for corporations and non-profit
organizations.
Welcome to the show, Lauryn.

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Lauryn
Franzoni

Thank you, Tom. Its a pleasure to be here.

2:32

Tom Floyd

Its a pleasure to have you.

Our third guest Elizabeth Jarosz beat more than one million applicants to be on
NBCs second season of The Apprentice, where every week, 17 million watched her
compete for the coveted position with Donald Trump.
In addition to being a charismatic speaker, Elizabeth is the founder and president of
Pulse40, Inc. an innovative market research/consulting firm that advises top
Fortune500 companies such as Kraft, Intel, AT&T, Clorox, Blockbuster, Coca-Cola
and Saachi & Saachi Advertising on market research, branding, and positioning
strategy.
Elizabeths accomplishments have been featured all over the media including: The
Today Show; Fox News Live; Inside Edition; Regis & Kelly; The Big Idea With Donny
Deutsch, and magazines including Business Week; People; Fast Company & Fortune
Welcome to the show, Elizabeth.

3:19

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Thank you. Its good to be here.

3:23

Tom Floyd

Our next guest Troy McClain was a cast member on the first season of The
Apprentice with Donald Trump, and is also an award winning international speaker,
professional business coach and award winning television host.
He is also founder and president of The McClain Company, a diverse and unique
corporation providing coaching, personal branding and speaker services.
Troy has appeared on CNN, Larry King Live, Dateline NBC, LIVE with Regis and
Kelly, and E! Entertainment.
He also was the host of Miss World 2004, host of the reality program Home Team
and has appeared in the mini-series The 100 Greatest TV Quotes & Catchphrases..
Welcome to the show, Troy.

3:57

Troy McClain

Thank you very much. Im happy to be here.

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3:59

Tom Floyd

Last but not least, our last guest Ann Vanino is the owner of Moving Forward
Coaching and Consulting and is also a business coach author and consultant based
in Los Angeles, California.
Her book Leadership on Trial: Lessons from The Apprentice offers seven leadership
lessons from the first season of The Apprentice.
Since 2000, Ann has also written a local newspaper column Coaching Corner,
which guides readers to a fulfilling life, and has also published two e-books, Power
Stories and Coaching Corner Volume 1.
Additionally, she writes the leadership blog and a bimonthly eZine Power at Work.
Welcome back to the show, Ann.

4:32

Ann Vanino

Thank you.

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Tom Floyd

As most of our listeners know, Donald Trump first introduced The Apprentice in 2004.
And the original show has spawned successive seasons, international and celebrity
versions, books, studies, and certainly a large base of loyal fans since its inception.
Id like to begin, kind of as we do at the beginning of all of our shows, by quickly
sharing some information that our research team pulled together about the show
before we jump into our conversation today.
First point, The Apprentice as a television franchise was originated in 2004 in the
United States on NBC. Built as the ultimate job interview, the show depicted a group
of 15 to 18 businessmen and women competing in an elimination style competition
for a one-year $250,000 job of running one of host and executive producer Donald
Trumps companies. Since its premier, the show has spawned many licensed
international versions as well as several imitations.
Now, many magazines, newspapers, educational institutions, and organizations like
The American Management Association have also captured lessons learned from
this hit reality show over the past several years. For example, a headline from an
article in the April 15th, 2004, issue of the Boston Globe reads, Business schools
nationwide find some real lessons in reality TV hit.
The article continues by highlighting the following.
According to the article, there's an entire management class at the University
of Washington in Seattle that is devoted to the show, complete with an hourlong question and answer session with one of Trump's assistants. At
Georgetown University, the accounting and finance faculty, who usually turn
up their noses at other reality shows like "Survivor," are eagerly rehashing
Apprentice episodes in the hallways and have even formed a pool to guess
the winner.
At business schools across the country these days, Donald Trump's The
Apprentice is all the rage, working its way into classroom discussions on
everything from what's fair play in negotiations to how to win customers -- or
even on how the Donald should style his hair.
At the University of Washington, about 80 undergraduates in the
Management Lessons from The Apprentice class watch the show each week
and come up with their own business plans for the tasks presented on
television. Their final exam: A journal of real-life lessons that they learned
from Trump.
Last but not least, one last data point is from an ABC News blog called The Working
Wounded Blog, which is maintained by Cindy Sheehan. According to her blog, a
small percentage of people, 4.8% actually, cited The Apprentice as their main source
for information about how to survive the workplace.
Troy, Id like to start with you to kick off the show today.
Can you tell us a little bit about your experience on The Apprentice?
What was it like being on the show?

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7:22

Troy McClain

Sure. First of all, it was an absolutely amazing experience.

Id have to back you up from the beginning to tell you how I got on the show.
My life legitimately was ten miles to the left and ten miles to the right. I had spent
most of my time mending fences or skinning my fist on something other than a
contract. Here I am, a local guy with a little bit of exposure in my local community
and running a small business.
My wife had sent in the application. On the very first season of that Apprentice, there
were over 215,000 people that had applied. There were 11,000 face-to-face
interviews.
Then it got down to 250 of us and then down to 50. I was the first person to go on
the show with only a high school diploma to taut underneath his record.
So I was going up against 15 contestants with some sort of college degree,
anywhere from a B.A. to a PhD.
When I went on the show, again, life from ten miles to the left and ten miles to the
right. The next thing I know, Im here in New York City and just staring at all these
big concrete walls.
The journey was incredible.
But I say that because thats what I decided to make it.
I know a lot of other people have different opinions on their experience.
For me, just to have the opportunity to interact and work within those type of scenes
and in those type of scenarios was something that was breathtaking and something
that really helps hone in my skills later on in life.

8:50

Tom Floyd

So it sounds like overall, in terms of the experience you had, it was definitely a
positive experience, and a very motivational experience, too.

8:58

Troy McClain

Yes, for me it was definitely a positive experience.

Heres what I tell everybody. Its kind of like bungee jumping or sky diving. At the
time, youre asking yourself, Why in goodness gracious am I doing this?
But looking back on it, you go, That was a hell of an experience.

9:18

Tom Floyd

Did you ever think that the show would become so big that organizations like the
American Management Association and universities like the University of Washington
would be pulling business lessons learned from it?

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Troy McClain

No, we had no clue that The Apprentice was going to be what The Apprentice was.
We were even told in the beginning that they didnt even know if it was going to get
picked up as a series.
Then we taped from September of 03 to November of 03.
By January of 04, they were averaging 28 million Americans watching the show.
The show had introduced us to a whole new world.
We had fans who were not just regular fans but fans of high net worth, such as
Warren Buffett. Warren Buffet sent a private jet, picked me up in Boise, Idaho, flew
me to Omaha, Nebraska, and I got to hang out with the guy for a day.
Bill Gates, we met Bill William Gates.
Mark Cuban showed up and contacted us.
It certainly didnt define me, but it definitely gave me a platform to talk about my
particular style in life and my particular style in business. It certainly was a great
education.
I end with this. I did not go to college, but that doesnt mean that I didnt get
educated. I tell a lot of people, Some people pay tuition to get their education. I
paid attention.
I just paid attention to some of the great coaches that are out there, some of the
great business leaders that are out there.
I learned to get my education through paying attention.

10:57

Tom Floyd

I have one last question for you real fast. If you had to summarize what your
personal biggest lesson learned from being on the show was, what would you say
that lesson is?

11:07

Troy McClain

Id say the biggest lesson I learned from being on the show is that its not the amount
of money that you claim on your tax returns that makes you great.
Its the work experience and life experience that makes you great.
I have learned tons of lessons from Gates, Buffett, Trump, even from Cuban, but I
realize that Ive also learned those lessons from people less obvious that have been
in front of me my whole entire life.
They just dont have the tax returns to say that theyre that great.

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11:34

Tom Floyd

It certainly sounds like a great lesson to me.

Elizabeth, Id like to turn to you next.
You were a contestant on Season 2 of The Apprentice.
What was your personal biggest lesson learned from being on the show yourself?

11:47

Elizabeth
Jarosz

First I just want to say, I was on Season 2, so Troys season really, really catapulted
our season, as well.
I just want to honor you, Troy, and all the stuff that you guys did, because it really
made a fantastic experience for us, as well.
We ended up having a million apply for Season 2. Then they chose 18.
It was just, for me, an honor to even be chosen to get onto the show at that point.
I think my biggest lesson, to answer your question, Tom, is really that what I do
inside, my workplace within, is really what determines my experience and my reality.
Its kind of like Troy said. Its a little bit like bungee jumping or sky diving. At the time
youre going through this experience, and you are kind of thinking, What am I doing?
What am I doing? In that moment, I started to question myself a little bit. I started to
question lots of things.
I think the key lesson I walked away from is that I can still stay centered within myself
in those kinds of moments.
Its really made me stronger as Ive gone about my business in the real world after
the fact.
Now I dont waiver much. I know that I create my reality and its all inside of me.

13:16

Tom Floyd

You brought up several great points that were actually captured in Anns book for
example. Well definitely come back to those.
It sounds like the biggest lesson learned was really staying true to yourself and who
you are.

13:28

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Very much so. I think I did that to a great degree on the show.
I grew up in Michigan. Im from the Midwest.
Authenticity has always been a very, very important thing to me.
I didnt do anything on the show that I wasnt proud of.
Just the internal journey that I went on while I was on the show, I just remember I
questioned myself a little bit. I looked back on that and really learned from that.

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13:52

Tom Floyd

Id like to ask the same question I asked Troy, too.

When you were on the show, did you ever think that business schools and
organizations like the AMA would be pulling lessons learned from the program?

14:05

Elizabeth
Jarosz

I did not.
Even though we had a lot of acclaim because of Season 1, at that point, we didnt
know that business schools were doing lessons learned or even that the water cooler
chat in the office was about The Apprentice.
When I found that out, I was really, really honored.
I did speak at the American Management Association. Just to see the lessons that
they were teaching from the show made me feel like I was a part of something that
was positively influencing society in some way at that point.

14:36

Tom Floyd

Has the show changed your view at all on things like leadership, teamwork, and the
other skills that we typically hear about that are needed to be successful in the
workplace today?

14:49

Elizabeth
Jarosz

The thing that I found interesting about The Apprentice and teamwork is that its not
like a typical team that you would put together where, as a leader, you can create the
same end goal and the same reward.
At the end of the day in The Apprentice, were competing for one position.
Even if we, as a team, were on the same page in terms of wanting to win a particular
task, many people on the team were also not really on the same page in terms of
wanting, for example, me to win or anyone other than themselves to win.
In an environment like that, I really learned how to rally people around something
even when, seemingly, at the end you didnt have similar objectives.
Choose a third point of reference that everybody could really get wrapped around
and go for.

15:44

Troy McClain

I concur with that completely.

15:46

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Thats an incredible skill.

15:47

Troy McClain

I concur with that absolutely, Elizabeth.

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15:50

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Yes.

15:51

Troy McClain

You said that correctly.

That was a very challenging time to try to figure out how you are going to get the
team to win, when individuals within the team want you out?

16:00

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Right.

16:01

Tom Floyd

So to summarize what you said, what helped was finding a cause or a mission thats
bigger than yourself.
You get them to rally around that opportunity.

16:10

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Yes, that is just a huge skill that Ive taken with me in life.
Actually the lesson around rallying the team is why I got fired.
The team staged a little coup and decided not to do what I was hoping to do for the
past.
I ultimately got fired, because Trump said that I didnt lead the team.
So I really looked at that lesson. It was beautiful. It was a beautiful lesson to get.

16:36

Tom Floyd

In terms of some of the things that you both had to rally people around, they were
tasks that the opportunistic person out there would have been too overwhelmed to
even try to tackle.
Its like what you said.
Theyre not on the same page. And I can imagine how difficult it was to get pretty
difficult personalities to rally around some of those things.

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16:57

Troy McClain

Yes, here was a challenge that I think a lot of people dont realize.
In business or in life, you have a sales cycle or a life cycle of whatever comes to play.
Lets just pick a widget. When you originate that widget, and you also sell that
widget, usually you have an average sale cycle of about 30 days.
Along those 30 days, you have bumps in the road that are just little blips in the road.
You were supposed to call someone back on a Friday, but you dont get back to them
until Monday.
You were supposed to deliver the product on a Monday, but you didnt get it
delivered until Tuesday.
What the genius of Trump and Apprentice was that they took that sales cycle, and
they grabbed onto either end of that sales cycle from the beginning to end.
They put their hands around it, and they crushed it together. They crushed it
together, and they gave you 48 hours to accomplish the same thing that takes 30
days.
Now those little bumps in the road become catastrophic errors. If you fail to call
somebody back on a Friday, its too late. You dont have until Monday. Its over.
If you fail to deliver the product on a Monday, and you deliver on a Tuesday, its over.
These little bumps in the road become grave errors on The Apprentice.
It really taught us to look beyond the obvious of things and really taught us to get
involved in something thats bigger.
We had to take on a challenge that said, Okay. Today youre going to be my friend,
but tomorrow youre going to be my respected adversary.
You learn to work with your adversary quite well to get through to the next task.

18:40

Tom Floyd

Excellent. Ann, Id like to turn to you next. Later in the show, were going to focus on
some of the specific lessons within your book, Leadership on Trial: Lessons from
The Apprentice.
For now just a big picture question, can you tell us a little bit more about what led you
to write a book about lessons learned from the show?

11

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18:58

Ann Vanino

Sure, Id be happy to. The first point was what led me to see the show.
With my schedule and everything, there wasnt time to get involved in reality TV. But
I read an article the week before the show premiered in the New York Times. It said
that the show was about power at work.
I work with my clients on maximizing their performance and finding fulfillment at work,
so I decided to take a look.
I became a huge fan and didnt miss an episode. The way that I used it was, both for
my own observation of how people worked within the workplace, and also looking at
Donald Trump and how he managed in the standards that he set up.
I was actually writing another book about power in the workplace.
We were driving up to Northern California, my husband and I.
We were talking about The Apprentice, and he said, Why dont you write a book
about The Apprentice. I said, No way. Ive got plenty to do.
I started thinking about it. I went to a brunch, and a lot of people who had graduated
from top schools and MBA programs were there. I said, My husband thinks I should
write a book.
They were all fans of the first season of The Apprentice.
I quickly wrote an outline, and that was that.
It was great to write the book.
I learned a lot in the writing of it as well as from the show.

20:15

Tom Floyd

Its funny how in life you never quite know when that inspiration is going to hit you.
Im sure you didnt think an afternoon car ride with your husband in California was
going to inspire you to write a book. Funny how that happens, right?

20:26

Ann Vanino

It sure is. It was inspired.

The main thing is to be open to it.
Im sure everybody on the call can tell about times that, if youre open and receptive
and dont block things off, it leads you on a wonderful ride.
This book has been one for me.

20:40

Tom Floyd

From your perspective, do you believe the challenges that the contestants faced
across the various seasons were typical of those that business professionals faced in
the workplace today?

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20:53

Ann Vanino

They were typical in the sense that they had some of the elements.
But I think they werent typical in what Troy was talking about, in the intense time
crunch, and what Elizabeth was talking about that everybody was competing for one
position, but they had to be a team in order to succeed.
I think some of it was intense and you were on a much bigger stage besides the fact
that you were on national television with millions of people watching you.
I think the lessons were clearly there. One way that I used the show was when I was
working with people that were trying to understand the workplace better and know
the game of work, I say, Take a look at The Apprentice, and let me know what you
find out. That led me to put a series of forms where you could look at The
Apprentice as a case study in the back of my book.
Thats why the American Management Association and the University of Washington
are looking at that.
You can take a case study and follow a candidate all the way through. What did they
do right? What did they do wrong?
You can follow a team. You can pretend that youre Donald and say, How would
you have judged the performance in the boardroom?

22:02

Tom Floyd

Interesting. Lauryn, Id like to loop you in on the conversation next. What kind of
impact do you feel The Apprentice has had on Corporate America and the business
world?

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22:12

Lauryn
Franzoni:

One of the things we see from the executives in our network is that the fascination
with The Apprentice has a lot to do with how it does reflect so many of the way days
do place out with them. While it definitely was a compressed time period, and there
were certainly lessons learned from that, I think what you saw in so many of the
participants was their reactions to stress in the workplace.
There was a stressful work situation. An interview, for example, is one of the most
stressful things that a leader will go through when trying to achieve a new position,
whether its inside a company or in a new company. This very visible interview
process, if you will, and the fact that everything about your performance is seen by
such a wide audience of people, really reminds us a bit about how we react under
stress to certain situations.
I think that if you think through any of The Apprentice seasons that youve watched,
you think about who you might say was a winner. Theres always a winner, but
theres certainly more than one winner per program and per season. There are a
number of people who stand out.
The people who really stand out in their performance are the people who had focus,
who had flexibility, who could listen and learn from whatever environment they were
thrown into. However long they made it through the season, they had very consistent
values showing. They typically were very positive and had creative and enthusiastic
approaches.
Thats what companies are looking for when theyre interviewing potential executives.
Theyre looking for that kind of show. Thats why theyll go through even nine people
interviews, two days, three panels, all that sort of thing, to see how theyre going to
perform.
Then we also have this fish bowl effect of everyone watching. This was one of the
first times that individuals who had been entrepreneurs, successful business people
in their own right, suddenly not just known in their local communities. They were
known across the country, across the world.
This was a preview of what were now seeing in the way that companies are doing
major online searches about candidates before they even bring them in to do an
interview process. Everything of the everyday businesspersons activities and what
theyre known for may be now very accessible on the Internet. They could be either
qualified or disqualified even from getting into the discussion based on whats out
there.
For these folks like Troy and Elizabeth, theyve had this tremendous microscope put
on them. They were amongst the first out there.
Now this is becoming quite commonplace.
Executives and business people are looking at their careers.
They have to think, not only who do they know and who knows them, but who knows
what about them and who knows what they can do.

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25:29

Troy McClain

Id like to add to that

25:30

Tom Floyd

Troy.

25:31

Troy McClain

Lauryn. That is absolutely correct.

One of the things that most people dont realize is we were all interviewing for a job
that we didnt know what the job was. I point that out to a lot of people. I go, When
you apply for a job, and the job is advertising a sales position, you cater your resume,
your character, and your behavior towards your sales attributes. But if its a
management job, you cater your resume more towards management.
We were asked to apply for a job, but yet they wouldnt tell us what the job was. The
job description was left blank. I was just told, The job will be for this amount of
money, and it will be for this person. But we will not tell you what the job entails, and
we just want to watch your behavior and your character.
Then to add what you also said, Lauryn, there was a lot of winners out there that
didnt win the show. I tell everybody that winning is for losers sometimes. I lost the
coveted position, but I won so much more, because I won exposure via the
bandwidth of, not only TV, but the Internet.
We literally took our miles from ten miles to the left to ten miles to the right. Next
thing I know, it was Australia to Alaska.
We had firms calling us up from Australia.
We had firms calling us up from China and Australia.
The bandwidth of that Internet is something that I compliment on what youre saying.
Its amazing, and more and more people are just looking at your online performance
or your documented information that you have out there via the Internet or via the
bandwidth of TV.
I think that really opened my eyes.

27:17

Elizabeth
Jarosz

And I am still getting requests. The last I think was Africa.

They must be airing The Apprentice in Africa or something at this point.
Its really quite the reach in terms of lessons learned. Its not just in the States.
Its been really all over the world.

27:36

Tom Floyd

Yes, it sounds like

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27:37

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Its interesting to watch, because you

27:38

Tom Floyd

to recap, in terms of some of the impact that it had, one is the show has definitely
put a focus on some of the things that companies and organizations within Corporate
America look for in successful people they would bring into their organizations.
Lauryn, you mentioned flexibility and the ability to learn and focus, things like that. It
really helps people see what some of those trades are.
In terms of hiring people and making sure you are selecting the right candidate for a
job, it really magnified to do your research and the importance of carefully looking at
what the person has done in the past. You mentioned online search and things like
that. It sounds like some of the points that the show really brought to fruition.
One last question before we go to our first commercial break, Duncan, Id like to turn
to you.
I understand youve spent some time capturing the differences and similarities
between, both The Apprentice in the U.S., as well as The Apprentice that ran in the
UK.
What have been some of your observations in doing so, and also anything in general
you would add to the conversation so far?

28:47

Duncan Brodie

I think many great points have been made. A couple of things, weve just had
Season 4 of The Apprentice in the UK and have just chosen a brand new apprentice.
Its a gentleman called Sir Allen Sugar.
Hes best known for involvement in the technology business. I think a couple of
points were made earlier on about listening to different peoples views around
contributions. Its really important.
We had one candidate - who maybe was slightly loony. I think thats how Allen
described the person.
But she actually had a very sharp business brain.
I think we also saw that in The Apprentice, while its obviously very pressurized in
terms of a lot to do in not a lot of time, sometimes you just need to stand back and do
a check on what youre doing.
A great example in the UK was on the very first task of the season, where our
candidates had to sell boxes of fish. One of the teams - - started selling the fish
priced a whole lot down at the per kilogram price. Theyre making lots of sales, but
they were selling lobsters for about $8, when they probably should have been selling
them for about $46.
I think sometimes youve just got to stand back in that frame. Business is
demanding, and business does sometimes require you to think on your feet very
quickly.

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30:49

Tom Floyd

Thats a great point. Im starting to hear the music for our first commercial break.
Lets go ahead and go on pause. Stay tuned, everyone.
More from Insight on Coaching when we return.

33:22

Tom Floyd

Welcome back to Insight on Coaching. Im Tom Floyd.

For those of you just joining us today, today the topic is Coaching Lessons from The
Apprentice. With me are Duncan Brodie, Managing Director of Goals and
Achievements Limited, Lauryn Franzoni, Vice President and Executive Editor of
ExecuNets Center for Executive Careers, Elizabeth Jarosz, former contestant from
The Apprentice Season 2 and Founder and President of Pulse40 Incorporated, Troy
McClain, former contestant on The Apprentice Season 1 and Founder and President
of The McClain Company, and Ann Vanino, Executive Coach and Author of
Leadership on Trial: Lessons from The Apprentice.
In this segment of the show, Id like to begin our discussion around some of the
lessons learned from The Apprentice, particularly some of the overall business
lessons.
Im going to quickly share some more data that our research team pulled together to
set the stage.
According to a Business Week article titled Lessons B-schoolers Can Learn
from The Apprentice, which appeared in its February 2nd, 2004 issue, writer
Jennifer Merritt notes, The show features some hard lessons you aren't
likely to learn in typical case studies on leadership. Two lessons
summarized in the article include:
Lesson 1: Always watch your back. For all the enlightened talk of
teamwork, when push comes to shove, people often look out for
themselves and try to blame others for their failures.
Lesson 2: There's no such thing as bad publicity. Quality isn't what
drives customers to buy. Exposure is what matters in a celebrityobsessed society. Call it the Donald Trump version of Marketing 101.
In Workforce Management, writer John Hollon identifies key Lessons from
the Donald as he puts them, saying, There are lessons to be learned from
"The Apprentice," and they can be applied to any business and workforce
anywhere. Three lessons he summarizes include:
Lesson No. 1: Leadership-even a little bit of it-matters. Although it is
largely an individual competition, it's not surprising that the winners of
"The Apprentice" were the people who showed some basic team
leadership skills, at least at a very minor level.
Lesson No. 2: Second-guessing is fatally disruptive. "The Apprentice" is
a show where the second-guessing goes nonstop. Competitors
constantly second-guess one another's motives, appearance, work
habits, leadership skills and everything else. And Trump is the worst,
using the weekly boardroom appearance by the losing team as an
opportunity to second-guess everything before he summarily fires
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someone.
Lesson No. 3: It's good to be a selfless team player (even if Trump
doesn't think so). Each week on "The Apprentice," two of the competitors
are designated as "project managers" for that week's task. The manager
of the winning team gets a small bonus: They can't be fired if their team
loses the next week. Getting people to put the larger team above their
own personal self-interest is one of the real keys to success for most any
business and not a reason to fire someone.
Finally, as The New York Times put it, "The show's firing ritual is somehow
more plausible than voting people off islands. It reflects the musical chairs
quality of corporate life: top management keeps taking away seats so that
only people no one would ever want to work with are left."

36:37

Tom Floyd

Duncan, Id like to start with you for this segment.

Id like to begin with the New York Times quote first.
Do you believe that The Apprentice reflects what it refers to as the musical chair
quality of corporate life, so to speak?

36:52

Duncan Brodie

Yes, I think that you have that, particularly in senior levels in the organizations.
Whether The Apprentice really reflects it I would say is questionable, because as
Troy and Elizabeth have mentioned, it is incredibly short periods of time.
I do think that there is definitely a drive in businesses of getting results and getting
results quickly. Sometimes the cost is success achieved in the short-term, but
sustainable success is not achieved.

37:41

Tom Floyd

Lauryn, anything that you would add?

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37:44

Lauryn
Franzoni:

I think Duncans got a point. As you know, companies are frequently assessing the
leadership potential of the professionals in the organization. They have high
performers, the hi-pos, as they call them.
Does that mean the others are all low performers or just not quite as high?
Theres a big question as to whether one should even structure it that way.
One of the things The Apprentice reminded me of was how many business school
grads, and also as common in large non-profit organizations in their fellows
programs, where they bring individuals in through some period of time, whether it be
a year or two years. They rotate them through a variety of departments or perhaps
businesses within the organization.
As Troy said before the break, you suddenly find yourself performing an interview,
and you dont know what your end goal is.
Its a very difficult position to put people in. So they really have no foundation beyond
who they are, what they can bring to the table, and how quickly they can respond to
the situation.
I spoke to a professional just the other day that said her experience living through
one of these yearlong programs was that every time she went to a new department, it
was as though she left one team and had gone to the other.
You think about how Trump used to reformulate teams, where suddenly youd been
all for your one team, and suddenly you have to switch allegiances, join the other
team, compete just as hard, and bring your specific goals to the organization.
I think its very much a sense of you need to know whats driving you, and in any
situation, to always look for, What am I passionate about? What is it that I can bring
to this situation to try to create success?
Because you might not always be in control of the situation.

39:42

Tom Floyd

It really is a sink or swim situation in those situations, and to summarize it sounds like
its important to really stick to your goals, your passions, and whats driving you to get
through it?

39:53

Lauryn
Franzoni:

Exactly.

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39:54

Tom Floyd

Okay. Elizabeth, I have a question for you.

The first lesson that was captured in the Business Week article that I referenced was,
Always watch your back.
It talked about the contestants blaming each other and only looking out for
themselves and things like that.
Can you tell us about your experience around that?
Was that a recurring theme or something that you consistently saw while you were
on the show?

40:16

Elizabeth
Jarosz

The answer to that is yes. Was I mentioned in that article?

40:22

Tom Floyd

(Laughing) You werent.

40:24

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Ive seen very similar articles listing a couple of examples of those who had fallen
victim to that lesson.
Yes, just because of the way I was fired, as I mentioned earlier, basically what
happened, those of you listening who dont remember, we were doing an NYPD
marketing task.
Marketing is my specialty. Thats what I do for many corporations.
I felt very strongly that we should do a positive campaign message. We ended up
doing a very negative message mostly because the team decided that thats what
they wanted to do, and just kind of rallied together and didnt want to listen.
I found out later actually through the interview process before I went to the
boardroom to get fired, they had decided to do that as a team, almost stage a coup.
One of the teammates of mine came to me and told me that. That would be a watchyour-back scenario in my mind.
Prior to that, I had done pretty well. I think they were kind of gunning for people that
they thought they could get off the show.
Whenever youre a project leader on that show, youre a target.
If everybody can come into the boardroom and say, We think its this. We think its
this, and everybodys the same, it makes it pretty easy for Trump to make a
decision. Thats what happened to me.
Thats why I was bringing up earlier the idea of how do you lead a team when you
have competing objectives?
Its the point of going for something greater than just yourself or your own interests.

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42:01

Tom Floyd

Ann, lets talk about the same situation Elizabeth just highlighted or same type of
situation in the workplace. If were coming at it from a coaching perspective, for
example, lets say youve got a coach out there is a coaching the manger, who has a
team full of people who are finger-pointing and placing blame on each other or, in this
case, forming a coup perhaps.
How would you guide a manager in dealing with that situation?
Are there any relevant points that you would pull from the show about that?

42:33

Ann Vanino

I think one of the surprises in writing the booka lot of the lessons were things that I
might have guessed before were going to be lessonsto be a true leader, you have
to know when to join and when to lead.
Everybodys been talking about that in the show today.
There was one point where one of the contestants, Tammy in the first season, said
she knew that they had done a particular job. Trump really went at her. He said,
You were part of a team. That wasnt a place where you needed to pull away from
the team and distinguish yourself.
If I was coaching someone, and they were either getting a sense that people were
going to be moving against that person, or someone told them, as in Elizabeths
case, I think what I would recommend is that we coach on, Is this a time for you to
lead and really size up the situation and move out on your own rather than being
concerned about being a leader of a team and having to be a real team member?
I think its a very important point. I think its something that you have to address if
youre going to move up into the higher ranks of management to know when youre
joining and when youre leading.
The Apprentice is a perfect example of that. As Elizabeth mentioned, you are
competing for one spot, but your success in most of the show is dependent on
working well as a team.

43:53

Troy McClain

I think its funny, because the group was me - - Katrina. That was

43:57

Ann Vanino

Thats right. Youre in there.

43:58

Troy McClain

I want what you want.

44:00

Ann Vanino

Right.

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44:01

Troy McClain

Right after I wrote that, and after it aired, I got contacted by every law firm. I guess
theres an actual strategy or technique. Theres some name to it. I dont know what
it was.
What theyre referring to is Katrina and I were negotiating over two separate pieces
of property.
I knew that I wanted exactly what she wanted, but she didnt want to own up to that.

44:29

Tom Floyd

I hate to interrupt but Im hearing the music for our next commercial break.

44:30

Troy McClain

Okay.

44:31

Tom Floyd

Lets go ahead and go on pause.

More from Insight on Coaching and Lessons Learned from The Apprentice when
we return.

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47:14

Tom Floyd

Welcome back to Insight on Coaching. Im Tom Floyd.

Today the topic is Coaching Lessons from The Apprentice.
With me are Duncan Brodie, Lauryn Franzoni, Elizabeth Jarosz, Troy McClain, and
Ann Vanino.
In the last segment of our show, Id like to talk more about some of the leadership
and coaching lessons pulled from the show as captured in our guest Ann Vaninos
book, Leadership on Trial: Lessons from The Apprentice.
Heres some additional information to very quickly set the stage.
In Leadership on Trial: Lessons from The Apprentice, professional business coach
and one of our guests, Ann Vanino, illustrates seven distinct lessons found in the first
season of The Apprentice.
Leadership on Trial goes beyond the show itself, giving readers advice on developing
leadership skills and providing exercises and resources through which readers can
put the lessons into practice.
Ann highlights the following set of leadership lessons in the book:
Lesson 1, take risks.
Lesson 2, be yourself. I think thats one weve certainly talked about so far in
the show, as well.
Lesson 3, know the game, also has already come up.
Lesson 4, maintain balance.
Lesson 5, have a strategy.
Lesson 6, think outside the box.
Lesson 7, another great point we talked about, know when to join and when
to lead.
Ann, so many of these lessons called out to me.
Its interesting how many in the natural course of our conversation today have
already come out and been discussed.
Lets focus on one that we havent talked about as much yet. Thats Lesson 1, Take
risks.
Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
When and why is it important for leaders to take risks in the workplace?

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48:50

Ann Vanino

I think risk is an absolute part of every workday. It may be in large degrees or small
degrees.
I think what it means is that you cant succeed in business without taking them.
It means that there will always be unknowns involved in business situations.
You have to get comfortable with the possibility of loss.
If you strive for absolute certainty or safety, youre doomed. Youre not going to get
very far. There are certainly some jobs that you can do, but you have to take risks.
Every person that applied for The Apprentice took risks. Troy was talking about his
reluctance to go on there, but he jumped. It had wonderful consequences for him.
So I think in our society we create safety. If you stay in the box, if you go the way
that people say, Youll have a fairly safe life, you may not have a very interesting life
or even perhaps a fulfilling life.
You have to get used to taking risks. You have to be able at some point to jump out
of your comfort zone into the unknown and take a leap.
For several years I worked in New York City as part of a hazardous materials
response team. Thats where I really learned to take risks.
You had to make decisions with limited information, and they had to be made
immediately. There was no going back.
You had to live with what you decided, go for it, and then move from there.

50:07

Troy McClain

Ann, I agree with that. Even in talking about my situation, I was not going to apply for
the show. Had I not applied for the show, I would not have the bandwidth that I have
today. I think, in taking those risks, youve even got to look at the end goal.
My end goal was ultimately to win.
If I look at it, I did win, simply by making it through the process.
I may not have won the coveted position, but I won so much more if Im willing to
open my eyes and look at that.
Today we literally travel the world. Today we speak for Lockheed Martin, the Clinton
Foundation, and Berkshire Hathaway.
We got introduced to that because of my willingness to take a risk, or actually truly
because of my wifes encouragement to make me take a risk.

50:56

Tom Floyd

From both the story that you shared before the last break and just in general, would
you summarize that as saying that those who were successful on the show were
those who took more risks than others?

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51:09

Troy McClain

Absolutely, absolutely.
Heres what I will say. The ones that continued to take risk on the show are the ones
that continued to be successful after the show.

51:21

Tom Floyd

Interesting. That makes sense.

Elizabeth, is there anything that you would add to that?
Do you think those who took risks were more successful than others?
A follow-up question is can you think of a situation where taking a risk backfired on
anybody on the show, too?

51:41

Elizabeth
Jarosz

To answer the first question, I think taking risks is critical if you want to live a fulfilling
life. I just firmly, firmly believe that. Its something that Im growing more and more
into myself. Obviously, Im a risk-taker. I didnt have a problem going up in front of
20 million people and competing for the job. On some level, I have that going for me.
Everybody, including myself, we think about things. We weigh the options. We want
to take calculated risks. I remember terms like cautiously optimistic that came out
even in my season of The Apprentice.
I think the more I look at my own life, the more I realize that when Ive actually made
the leap, as was said earlier in the show, and risked potentially losing something,
those were the times where the big things happened to me, the big transitions, the
big changes, where the things that Ive always wanted to happen in my life have
happened. Its when I play it safe and I stay in my box that I get more of the same.
So I think its just a critical piece of success and really pushing yourself to limits and
transitioning from one state to another.
Separately, I just want to mention that Troy and I have had a couple of conversations
just in the last week. He is somebody who is consistently taking risks. We were
talking about a project that I have going. One of the things that he was saying to me
was, Elizabeth, youve got to take the leap. Youve got to take the risk.
So I bring that up, because I think having support and having a network around you
of people who are of like mind, who think big like you do, or at least surround yourself
with people who you want to be more like is really, really important, because you
encourage each other.
Thats the kind of support network thats there no matter what happens with the
particular project.

53:40

Tom Floyd

Really having that network encourages you, inspires you, and makes taking some of
those risks a little bit less scary.

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53:47

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Absolutely. That brings up the whole networking point, which we dont talk about a
lot when we talk about The Apprentice, because much of it happens after the fact.
Nobody really asks those questions.
What a powerful group of individuals hand-selected from across the county.
I have made some incredible friends, Troy being one of them.

54:10

Troy McClain

I concur with that, too.

54:10

Elizabeth
Jarosz

Thats important in doing business.

54:13

Tom Floyd

That is certainly a great point, as well. I feel like theres so many lessons learned
from this show. I think we need to have at least another follow-up show or two!
Unfortunately, I cant believe it; were at the end of our show today.
A huge thank you to the five of you for joining us today.
As always, a huge thank you to our listeners, as well.
For more information about our show, you can look us up on the Voice of America
business channel.
You can visit our website at www.ieconsulting.biz .
Dont forget you can download the podcast version of this show as well. Just go to
Apple iTunes. Click podcast on the left side of the screen. Enter Insight on
Coaching in the search field, and youll see us from there.
Thanks everyone, well see you next week.

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