Socrates, Meno, and Definitions

David Pattillo

University of Notre Dame

Fall, 2015
Platontic Dialogues

“Meno” is a dialogue written by Plato (429-347 B.C)

You’ll notice that the dialogue is between Socrates (470-399
B.C), Plato’s teacher, and Meno. This is the style of Plato’s
writings. Socrates never wrote anything, rather he walked the
streets of Athens talking to people. Plato’s dialogues are a
mix of things Socrates likely actually said and Plato’s own
philosophical views which he puts in the mouth of Socrates.
For the sake of this class, we will not attempt to distinguish
Plato’s views from Socrates’ views.
Socrates

Socrates was never popular...Why?

Socratic method: (proceeds by Socrates

asking questions)
You think you know something
↓
You realize you never actually understood
it to begin with
The person is left stunned/perplexed
The end goal is not numbness; the end goal is to realize one’s
ignorance so that one can start building up one’s knowledge in
a less confused way.
Meno

The Meno begins by Meno asking Socrates the question

Can you tell me Socrates, can virtue be taught? Or
is it not teachable but the result of practice, or is it
neither or these, but men possess it by nature or
some other way?

Socrates responds
I do not even have any knowledge of what virtue
itself is...If I do not know what something is, how
could I know what qualities it possesses?

This is Plato’s doctrine of the Primacy of Definitions:

Every inquiry about X ought to begin with the question
“What is X?”
Is this plausible?
Definitions

Meno repeatedly tries and fails to give a definition of virtue

Through this Plato is trying to show us the proper method for
giving definitions
There are at least 5 things Plato shows us about a good
definition of X:
I It should not confuse X with instances of X (72b, 73e)
Meno gives a list of different virtues for men, women, children,
slaves etc.
Socrates compares this to giving different instances of bees.
What we want to know to define “beehood” is what they have
in common in virtue of all being bees (likewise with health,
strength).
We want to know what unites all instances of virtue as virtues.
Definitions

There are at least 5 things Plato shows us about a good

definition of X:
I It should not confuse X with instances of X (72b, 73e)
I It should be given in terms that are clearer than X (75d, 76d)
Socrates define shape as that which always follows color
Meno complains that this is not helpful because color is no
more clear than shape
Socrates responds in a mocking way by defining color as “an
effluvium from shapes which fits the sight and is perceived,”
which Meno claims to understand.
The point is that his first definition was in fact much clearer,
but this clarity condition is somewhat subjective
Definitions

There are at least 5 things Plato shows us about a good

definition of X:
I It should not confuse X with instances of X (72b, 73e)
I It should be given in terms that are clearer than X (75d, 76d)
I It should not contain superfluous material (77b-78b)
Meno defines virtue as desiring beautiful (good) things and
having the power to acquire them.
Socrates argues that everyone always desires good things, even
if they are mistaken in what things are actually good.
Thus, desiring good things is a superfluous condition
Compare this to taking any of the previous necessary and
sufficient conditions we’ve had and sticking on the end “and
either being Teddy Roosevelt or not being Teddy Roosevelt”.
It is true of everything, so it does not contribute anything
important to our conditions.
Definitions

There are at least 5 things Plato shows us about a good

definition of X:
I It should not confuse X with instances of X (72b, 73e)
I It should be given in terms that are clearer than X (75d, 76d)
I It should not contain superfluous material (77b-78b)
I It should not be circular (78c-79c)
Meno, at Socrates prompting, defines virtue as the power of
securing good things justly and piously
Justice and piety are virtues, so this amounts to saying that an
action is a virtue if it is performed with virtue
This is obviously only helpful if we already know what virtue is;
i.e. it is unhelpful as a definition
Definitions

There are at least 5 things Plato shows us about a good

definition of X:
I It should not confuse X with instances of X (72b, 73e)
I It should be given in terms that are clearer than X (75d, 76d)
I It should not contain superfluous material (77b-78b)
I It should not be circular (78c-79c)
I It should give necessary and sufficient conditions (73d)
Meno defines virtue as being able to rule over people
Socrates points out that this is not necessary, because children
and slaves can be virtuous
Also, it is not sufficient because it does not require them to
rule justly
Are these plausible? Are there others?