Please state and spell your full name.

IH He wn HB THE WITNESS: Maria Doe .

MADAM FOREPERSON: Please spell it.

THE WITNESS: M-a-r-i-a.
MADAM FOREPERSON: Thank you.
THE WITNESS:
MADAM FOREPERSON: Thank you.

MARIA Doe ,
having been duly sworn, testified in the Grand Jury
1 proceedings through the interpreter as [ollows:
12
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. ZONEN
15 Q Miss Doe , good morning.
16 A Good morning.
17 Q Actually, closer to this afternoon. How are
18 you today?
19 A Fine.

20 Q Thank you for coming here to testify this

21 morning. You are married currently?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I didn't hear you.

23 Q BY MR. ZONEN: What is the name of your

24 husband?
25 A David.

26 Q And you have how many children?

27 A How many children do I have?
28 Q Yes. How many children?

1032
 A Three children.
Ora Hoe wn H Q And you have how many grandchildren?
A Five and one adopted.
Q Okay. Is Jane Doe one of your
children?
A Yes. She's my only daughter.
Q She's your only daughter. And she has three
children, does she not?

A Yes.

Q And the names of her three children are what?

1 A Judy
12 Q Judy
13 A

14 Q aod . All right. Is

15 Judy the oldest child?

16 A Jane, yes.

17 Q And Jane 's second child is?

18 A My son has two and adopted one.

19 Q Okay.
20 A The second son.
21 Q Jane has three children?
22 A Yes.

23 Q Judy is her oldest child. and her second

24 child, Jane's second child is whom?
25 A John. Jane's second one is John.
26 Q John. And the third one?
27 A James.
28 Q James. Mr. Interpreter, you did very well.

1033
 Mrs. Doe , you live in which city?
OIA Hoe wn HB A El Monte, California.
Q And you've been living in El Monte for how
long?
How many years?
» OD How many years.
I'm not sure if it's 33 or 34.

Q All right. You raised your children in that

house; is that correct?

A Yes.

1 Q And your granddaughter, Judy , currestly

12 lives in that house, is that true?
13 A Judy , yes

14 Q What kind of vork does your husband David do?

15 A He's a truck driver.
16 Q And how long has he worked as a truck driver?
17 A Oh, it's been 40 or 43, I don't know. He's
18 worked at EXC, but that company doesn't exist any more.
19 And then, I don't remember. But now he's in the
20 Ralph's.
21 Q He works for Ralph's as a truck driver; is that
22 correct?
23 A How many years?
24 Q How many years has he worked at Ralph's as a
25 truck driver?
26 A Well, the company that he worked for before
27 switched them to Ralph's, because Ralph's bought the
28 company. Hughes, Hughes. It was Hughes. It was Hughes

1034
 and Ralph's bought it.
OIA Hoe oN He Q All right.
A And all the truck drivers switched over.
Q Okay. Mrs. Doe , do you have a close
relationship with your grandchildren?
A Yes. Yes.

Q And particularly Jane's three children, do you

have a close relationship with them?
A They're mine. I have brought them up.
Q Okay, Do you talk to them regularly?
1 A ves.
12 Q And by regularly, how often do you talk to one
13 of your grandchildren - Jane's grandchildren?
14 A I have to call them every day, because
15 otherwise I would die of my nerves if I don't know about
16 them.
17 So you inquire about your grandchildren daily?
> OPO

18 Pardon?
19 You inquire about your grandchildren daily?
20 Yes. Yes.

21 Q Now, Judy lives with you, but the boys live

22 with whom? With whom do the boys live?
23 A Jane.

24 Q Jane. And Jane lives with whom?

25 A In an apartment with -- I don't know how to say
26 it, but I'm going to say it, Jay Daniel.
27 Q Jay. Good. Okay. All right. Now, do you
28 talk with the boys fairly regularly as well?

1035
 A Yes. I call Jane and I ask about the
OI H Hen children.
Q Are you --
A And she has to tell me where they are.
Q Okay. Daily?
A Judy ?

Q Judy . No, every day?

A Yes. Yes.

Q All right.
A If I don't call in the morning 1/11 call at
1 noon or I'll call in the afternoon. Bul T have Lo know

12 about them.

13 Q Are you aware of the period of time that the

14 boys and sometimes Judy would go to a place called
15 Neverland?

16 A Could you start at the beginning, because I

17 don't hear very well.
18 Q The acoustics here are difficult. Yeah. Do
19 you know what Neverland is? Have you ever heard of a
20 place called Neverland?
21 Yes. Yes.
> OP OP

22 What is Neverland?
23 I don't know, because I've never been there.

24 Do you know who Michael Jackson is?

25 Yes. Also through television and the children
26 spoke about him. But I don't know him.
27 Q All right. Have you ever seen him on
28 television?

1036
 A Yes. Every day I've seen him now.
Ora He wn H Q All right. So now you know who he is. But
back then, back in February of '03, 2003, the early part
of 2003, did you know vho Michael Jackson was back then?
A No. It was when the children started to talk
about it, because I watched television. Now I do know
him because I see him on television every day.
Q Exhibit No. 40, do you recognize this person,
Exhibit No. 40?

A Yes.

1 Q And who is this?

12 A Michael Jackson.

13 Q Were you aware that your grandchildren were

14 visiting Michael Jackson at his ranch called Neverland?
15 A Whether I knew?
16 Q Yes. Did you know?
17 A Yes. Yes.

18 Q Okay. Who is it who told you that they were

19 visiting up there?
20 A They did, when they'd come.
21 Q Was it -- do you know whether or not -- was
22 there -- strike that.

23 Was there a period of time where the children

24 were staying up there at this place called Neverland for
25 longer periods of time than just a day or two?
26 A whether they remained there longer time?
27 Q Uh-huh.
28 A Yes.

1037
 Q Do you remember when that was? How long ago?
Or A Hoe oN A Whether I remember when?

Q Do you remember when it was that your

grandchildren were up at Neverland for a longer period
of time?
A I don't know.
Q Okay. Did you try to talk with your
grandchildren during the time that they were at
Neverland on the telephone?
A They would call me, because they knew that if
1 they didn't call me, they knew that I'd die Crom my
12 nerves. And one of them would always call me. If it
13 wasn't John, it was James or Judy -
14 ‘Then when they would call me I would tell them
15 that I wanted to talk to the other ones. Then they
16 would say, "No, they can't." I said, "Why?" And they'd
17 hang up on me.
18 Q Was that normal for them? was that how your
19 grandchildren behaved?
20 A No. No. ‘They always spoke with me. They
21 always told me everything. But once they were over
22 there, they couldn't talk. and then they would talk to
23 me in this manner, and I would say, "Talk to me louder,
24 I can't hear you." They'd say, "I can't," and hung up.
25 Q And then hang up the phone?
26 A Yes. Yes. One of the times, one of the
27 children, I don't remember which, because my nerves were
28 all like that, they said to me, ‘Ma, we can't talk or

1038
 call you because they're listening to me." Then I was
OIA Hen in worse shape. I ended up in worse shape, because then
again, they had to call me, otherwise -- so I said,
“what is going on with you?" And then hang up.
Which one?
oP oO They weren't finish what they were saying.
which grandchild was that?
A One would call me, I would say, "Bring the
others." And they'd say no, they couldn't. and they
were in one place, and the others were in another place.
1 So then I would say, "Well, tell tne "Once James
12 called me very late at night, and I said, "James, tell me
13 what's going on?" "I can't, Ma, because they'll hear
14 us. They're listening to us." Then they had the
15 telephones bugged or something. I don't know.
16 Q All right. Did you have a conversation with

17 Jay and with your daughter Jane and with your husband
18 David about calling the grandchildren and telling them
19 that you were sick and that they had to come visit you?
20 A Yes. Yes.

21 Q Did you make that telephone call or did they

22 call you?

23 A We would never call. We never called. The --

24 oh, Jay, Jay, because that's how it's written, Jay
25 Daniel, and I called him Jota. That's Spanish for Jay.
26 Jota in Spanish is Jay.
27 Q Okay.
28 A And so then he called, he called, and I grabbed

1039
 the phone. And then I said -- he was speaking to me in
Cr cc English. And I said to my husband, "Look, Jay is
calling me, and what is he saying?"
Then when they hung up and everything my
husband told me that he had to go to -- I'll call him
Daniel -- to see Daniel. Because Jay Daniel, all right,

and my husband said that they were going to go and get

the kids out because they were going to take then
somewhere else.
Q who's Daniel?
1 A That's the Jota, Jay.
12 Q Oh, his middle name is Daniel. Okay.
13 A And it's easier for me to say Daniel.
14 THE INTERPRETER: That's J-o-t-a.

15 Q BY MR. ZONEN: All right. Now, did you have a

16 conversation with your grandchildren, any of the three
17 grandchildren, wherein you told them that you were sick?
18 A Yes.

19 Q With which child?

20 A I was called by one of them, I can't remember
21 if it was James. James, because John was the second one,
22 because he said, "Mama, are you sick?" Because he
23 called -- they called me mama, not granny.
24 Q Okay.

25 A So then I said, "Yes, I'm dying from my nerves.

26 And if I don't see you I'm going to get a nervous
27 attack." And then I said, "I want -- I want for you to
28 please come, all of you." And then they'd say, "Okay,"

1040
 and hang up.
OYA Hen He Then John called me. But I heard that John
had a very different voice. It wasn't my John. It
wasn't my John. Because he said -- because John would
always be very affectionate when he spoke to me before
he went over there. And then he said, his voice seemed
different, and he said, "Mama, are you sick?" That's
what he said. I said, "Yes, child. I want to see you
all."
Q Okay.
1 A And he said, "All right. Okay."
12 Q Did your husband also speak with one of your
13 grandchildren in your presence? In other words, were
14 you watching and listening to your husband while he was
15 on the phone with one of the grandchildren?
16 A I don't remember.

17 QOkay. Did the children come soon thereafter,

18 after that telephone call?
19 A Yes.

20 Q Do you know --
21 A Yes. They did come.
22 Q Do you know how they came? Did somebody bring
23 them?

24 A Yes. The gentleman brought them.

25 Q All right. Did you see the vehicle drive up?
26 A No. I arrived -- I heard when they knocked on
27 the door. I went out very fast to see them.
28 Q Okay.

1041
 A Aman brought them.
Bora Hoe won HB Q Tell me how they were behaving, the three
children? Was their behavior -- for any of the
any of the three, was there -- whoa, whoa, whoa.
A No. They weren't my grandchildren.
Q How was their behavior different after they got
to your home than previous?
A They just weren't my grandchildren. ‘They were
aggressive children. John was like this. He used to
always hug me and kiss me. And John was like this. As
1 I say, John, and that's when he says, "Are you sick?"
12 And I said, "Yes, child, I am sick." And completely,
13 that's what I said. When they came back those were not
14 my grandchildren.
15 Q When Jane and Jay arrived at your house later,
16 did they arrive the sane day that your grandchildren
17 arrived?
18 A Yes. They came over that night.
19 Q How did the children behave when Jane and --
20 A They didn't even want to see them. They were
21 aggressive. Aggressive. I don't know.
22 Q All three children?
23 A Yes. John more than anyone.
24 Q All right. How long did that go on? How long
25 did it take before the children returned to a more
26 normal state?

27 A Oh, I would speak with them, and since I have

28 arthritis, it's hard for me to stand up. And then they

1042
 did notice that I was sick.
BOI 8 Hoe oN Q All right. Did they start behaving like normal
within a short period of time, or did it take a long
time before they returned to normal?
A The time went by. Time went by. I had to talk
to them and talk to them, And I said to John, because
he was the one who was most like that, I said, "John,
why are you like that? Why are you like that?" and I
said, "That man is bad. He's put bad things in your
head." And then he would yell at me, "No."
1 And John never had ever lavk Of respect for me
12 or yelled at me. He said that that man was going to pay
13 for his university and was going to turn him into an
14 entertainer. Many things John told me. And I started
15 to cry, because I said, "No, John, I'm the one who
16 loves you." I said, "I'm the one who loves you, because
17 that man is nothing to you."
18 But that's the way they were. And it lasted a
19 long time.
20 Q Mrs. Doe , what happened after the children
21 got back? Were there strange things happening at your
22 home afterward?
23 A Like what?
24 Q Phone calls?
25 A Oh, yes. Oh, those men, day and night, night
26 and day would call on the phone. 1 had a phone in which
27 it showed up the name of the person, and then you could
28 hear the voice. And they called, "John, John, James,

1043
 Judy , answer me." And I didn't let them. I never
Cr er let them answer. I never did.
Q How long did these calls go on for?
A A long time. They would even call at night.
Even at night. I think they thought that I would fall
asleep. But I was always noticing the telephone.
Q You have then the kind of phone where you can
see who's calling; is that right?
A Yes. Yes.
Q What does that mean? Tell me what that means,
1 you can tell who's calling?
12 A It was a red phone like this. and it had a
13 thing like this, and there it said the name, it said the
14 name there. And when the person would call you could
15 also hear the voice.
16 Q All right. Now, was it sometimes actually a
17 name or was it just a number that you knew belonged to a
18 particular name? Could you -- could you see the actual
19 name?
20 A I saw the name. And then the person would
21 talk. I would see the phone and they would talk. But I
22 didn't know any of them.
23 Q What was the name that you saw? Do you
24 remember it?
25 A There was a Frank two or three times. I don't
26 remember. There was Neverland. It said Neverland. and
27 what hurts me most is that my little granddaughter broke
28 it, because she wants to fix one phone with another one.

1044
 Q All right. Now, was -- that was Judy ?
OYA Hoe oN H A Judy . Judy .
Q Now --
A Clocks, everything, takes them apart.
Q Did you -- did you have an unusual person come
to your house and do unusual things, strange person?
A Oh, yes. One night I was watching television
in the dining room, Judy was in her room. And
her -- her door -- her room is -- you can see into the
garden from there, You can see outside in the street.
1 Then I heard -- I was watching my soap operas,
12 course, because I like soap operas. Then I heard
13 rerrrrr, I heard like that, and I stayed like this, and
14 I heard again. and then about the third or fourth time
15 I stood up. And at that time Judy was coming out of
16 the room. And I was going like this. And then she
17 says, "Mother, did you hear, they're throwing rocks." I
18 said, "Yes. That's why I got up and I'm going to go
19 see."

20 Then we went to the door and I opened the door

21 first, and I saw a man standing outside, not on the
22 side, on my side, but across like that. A black or blue
23 car. I don't know. There was a man standing, a man
24 standing dressed in black, and he had a cap. Then at
25 the moment that I opened the door and went out, that's
26 when he threw another rock. And that rock touched the
27 window where Judy was. And then I said, " Judy .
28 run, call the patrol," I said. And he, when he heard me

1045
 yell, I always talk loud because I can't hear.
OXIA ewKH
Q Okay.
A And then he got in the car and took off. But
the next day Judy always would come and go from the
school with the children from the area. Then Judy ,
when she came out of school, she was running, and she
was running. And she came in and knocked on the door
and I said, "What's wrong with you, Judy ?" She
seemed to be frightened. I said, " Judy ," and I
looked at her from top to bottom, I said, "What's wrong
1 with you?" And then she said, "He's out" -- "Somebody's
12 following me, somebody's following me, and he was
13 talking to me."
14 And I looked but I didn't see anything. she
15 says that he followed her almost to my home. well, I
16 didn't drive because once somebody tried to rob me. And
17 never again could I get into a car, drive.
18 So from that day on I had to take Judy to
19 school and back. And I still do. I take her to school
20 and back.
21 Q You haven't been driving for what, ten years
22 before?
23 A Well, I don't remember. 1 don't remember.
24 Because one time when I was at Sav-On as I came out,
25 there's a car parked like that, another one coming like
26 this. There were two of them. When I backed up they
27 went like this. I looked at them and looked at the
28 other one, and then I thought, "Oh, this is for me."

1046
 And since I was alone in the car, then I went like this,
BIH He oN one of them came over like this, and the other one on
the street, the other one was there. And they followed
me for 15 minutes. I vas going crazy.
Q Okay.
MR, ZONEN: All right. Anyone have any
questions?
Q BY MR. ZONEN: Does your -- does your husband
work with David Doe ?
A No. He works at the bank -- at Vons. e works
1 at Vons.
12 Q He works at Vons. Your husband works as a
13 trucker for Ralph's?
14 A No. No. He works loading the trucks or

15 working in the warehouse. I always heard him talk about

16 the warehouse.
17 Q You're talking about David Doe ?
18 A Yes. Yes.

19 Q Okay. And your husband, David Doe . he

20 works for Ralph's?
21 A Yes. My husband is a truck driver.
22 Q This question may be a little embarrassing for
23 you, and I apologize in advance, all right. Have you
24 ever talked to any of your grandchildren about sexual
25 matters? And specifically, have you ever talked to any
26 of your grandchildren about men --
27 A No.
28 Q -- about men who misbehave because they fondle

1047
 themselves or engage in acts of masturbation? Do you
Ora Hoe oN understand the question?
A I -- before they went up there I would always
tell them that little boys should never allow themselves
to be touched by anybody.
Q All right. Is that the --
A And they never said anything to me. When they
came back, as I say, they were not my grandchildren.
They were like others. Before they would tell me
everything. But after that, nothing.
1 Q But as your children -- as your grandchildren
12 were growing up, did you ever talk to them about grown
13 men who do those things with themselves? Grown men who
14 fondle themselves. Did you ever mention to them what
15 that was and what they were doing?
16 A No. No.

17 Q Did you ever see David Doe , your former

18 son-in-law, did you ever see him abuse Jane or the
19 children, physically abuse them?
20 A No. The only thing that I would see sometimes
21 that he would kind of throw the kids, and I didn't like
22 that.
23 Q Did you ever see Jane with bruises?
24 A Yes. On her arms. I'd say, "What happened?"
25 And she'd always say, "I fell down." But I could see
26 that she was on the verge of crying.
27 Q Were you suspicious about that, the answer that
28 she gave you? Were you distrusting of that answer?

1048
 A No. I didn't believe the answer. Sometimes it
OYA He woNH looked like finger marks that she had.
Q All right. When you would be talking to the
children when they were at Neverland and they would hang
up, could you tell if the conversation was being
disconnected right during the conversation as if someone
else were doing it, or was it your grandchildren who
were ending the conversation? Could you tell?
A Well, no. But the way they talked to m, I'd
say something's going on. Oh, yes, one time they told
1 me that they would spy on them. That they spied on
12 them.

13 Q Okay.
14 A And watched them. I said, "Why are they
15 watching you?" But they never gave me an answer that
16 would please me.
17 Q All right. Did you feel that the kids were in
18 danger when they were at Neverland?

19 A Well, yes. Because -- because why would they

20 hang up?
21 Q Why didn't you call the police? Did you talk
22 about whether or not to call the police with your
23 husband or with Jane or with Jay?
24 A Yes, I said to my husband, "Why don't you call
25 the police on them. That is kidnapping if they don't
26 want to let the children out."
27 Q and --
28 A And then when they did come, they told me that

1049
 they were going to take them to Brazil.
Or A Hoe oN H Q Okay.
A That they were going to go to Brazil. I said,
“Why? Why? Do you want me to die?" That's what they
told me, that they were going to go to Brazil. That
they were getting all the paperwork done.
Q Who was it who told you that they were going to
take them to Brazil? Who told you that?
A The children.
Q The children?
1 A And my daughter. Because I said, "Whal's going
12 on? Why are they going to take them." They said,
13 "Mama, I can't tell you too much." And I said, 'No, no.

14 They're not -- they're children, they're your children

15 and my grandchildren."
16 Q On the day that your -- the grandchildren were
17 delivered to your house, on that day did you see the
18 vehicle that they actually drove in?
19 A No. No. Because my house is like this. and

20 over to the back is -- over this way is where they

21 arrive.
22 Q Okay.
23 A And then over here is my door.
24 Q All right. Did you ever see a car, any kind of
25 vehicle that you believed was associated with Neverland?
26 Did you ever see any of the vehicles?
27 A Well, just that one to throw rocks.
28 Q And how would you describe that one? You said

1050
 darker black before. How would you describe that one?
Cr er A It was black or blue. It was a small car. It
was a small car. And the man was standing like this
there. And from there is where he was throwing the
rocks.
MR, ZONEN: Any other questions? Go ahead and
admonish the witness.
MADAM FOREPERSON: Okay. Before you leave I

must caution you that you are not to discuss with anyone
the content of your testimony that you have given this
1 day before the Grand Jury. A violation of my
12 instruction could be the basis of a charge of contempt
13 of court against you. Do you understand?
14 THE WITNESS: I'm understanding.

15 MADAM FOREPERSON: Thank you.

16 MR. ZONEN: Mrs. Doe , one last matter.

17 There is -- there is an additional order that comes from

18 a superior court Judge in Santa Barbara County. That
19 Judge has ordered that all witnesses in this case not
20 engage in any conversation with the press at all about
21 this case. You cannot discuss this matter with the
22 press. Do you understand that?
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, I haven't. But my house was
24 like this when the kids came back. And then it looks
25 like a soccer field. They put a light on me. the
26 police would come each day, every day. Because even the
27 neighbor next door would say, "Please, leave those
28 people in peace.

1051
 We couldn't go out. I was a prisoner in my own
Or A He wn home. Channel 4, Channel 52. Well, they left me
letters, papers, they put them underneath the door.
They opened my mail box, one taller person. I would see
him, just like a bandit. I was looking out of my house,
and I saw that he opened the mailbox and he looked
inside. I was thinking, "If he takes anything of mine
out of there I'm going to scream."
MR. ZONEN: All right. Okay. I assume you
will not be talking to the press.
1 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, no, 0.
12 MR. ZONEN: Mrs. Doe , thank you very much

13 for coming. Just one moment, please.

14 THE WITNESS: They would go and talk to the

15 neighbors. And the neighbors told them to please leave

16 us alone.
17 MR. ZONEN: We're done. Thank you. All the
18 admonitions are finished. Mrs. Doe , thank you for
19 coming. You're excused.

20 THE WITNESS: what do I do if the reporters

21 come to my house? Should I lock myself up again?
22 MR. ZONEN: You say nothing. You go to your
23 room, you call the police.
24 Have a good lunch.
25 MADAM FOREPERSON: The grand jurors are
26 admonished that they're not to form or express any
27 opinions about this case or discuss it among themselves
28 until the Grand Jury receives the case for deliberation.

1052
 In addition, no investigation or inspection of
Ora He oN any evidence should be conducted without the permission
of the foreperson and on advice of the attorneys.
A violation of this could result in a charge of
contempt against a grand juror who would investigate or
view any matters with regard to this case without the
entire body of the Grand Jury.

(Whereupon, the noon adjournment was.

taken until 1:00 p.m. of the same day.)
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1053