Diana Master IV

CITIES AT DAWN
DIANA MASTER INTERVIEW
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CITIES AT DAWN
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Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

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22:00:00:00 45 Di Master IV Roll 1
22:00:00:10 Interviewer
Just tell me your name, give me a bit of intro to yourself. Okay.
22:00:06:21 Diana Epes

My name is Diana Epes, and I work with my husband, Anthony, who is
a photographer. We have two children, who are two and eight, and we
work together on his photography business, which we’ve been doing for
mm, just over two years now. It’s been exciting, and crazy and it’s been,
it’s been amazing.
So tell me about, tell me a bit more about Cities at Dawn publishing and
tell me, you know, about the company.
Um, okay. [COUGH] Er we set up Cities at Dawn almost three years
ago, and it’s a publishing and a workshop business. We are publishing
a series of books by Anthony on cities at dawn. We started with London
and Paris, and we’re now working on Venice and New York, and then
Istanbul, and we also run workshops, photography workshops at dawn in
those cities. Um, really
22:01:33:09 what we were trying to do was to show people how incredibly beautiful,
how incredibly peaceful, how incredibly empty their cities were at dawn
when, particularly in Summer, when most people are asleep and they
miss this incredible time of day. I think most people who live in cities
like London and Paris are just so used to them being busy and full and
chaotic and stressful

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22:02:03:08 and hectic, and we wanted to show people that there are times when
you can find some amazing serenity, not just at night time, but at that
moment, you know those few hours of early morning, four, five, six
am, when people haven’t got up and filled the streets. So that was the
inspiration, um, for the business, and it was something that we had been
thinking about for quite
22:02:38:24 some time. We’ve been married for a long time, we’ve done a few projects
together, but we thought this is now the time, the opportunity for us to, to
kind of come together and make this happen.
So then tell me about what you’re, what… Let’s go back three years ago.
What was your kind of, was there an inspirational moment or, like, a
Eureka moment. I mean what was the thing that made you kind of
decide to do this?

Um… There, there were a few reasons why Anthony and I decided
to work together, and um, partly it was I was running a business and
Anthony was freelancing as a photographer running his business, and
we had, I think, probably a life that’s quite familiar to a lot of parents. It
was just busy, busy all the time, and I just felt completely overwhelmed. I
was, I was managing a
22:04:01:00 team of people, I was running a business, I was doing everything,
finance, delivery, sales, everything, and it was really, really intense, and I
just thought to myself I started to kind of feel like I’m not really enjoying
my life. I’m rushing to and through, fro, I’m getting to work at nine and
it feels like five minutes later it’s six o’clock and I have to rush out, pick up
my son, go home,

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22:04:33:05 make dinner. Everything was just such a rush, and it was so stressful,
and I just got to a point where I thought this is, I mean is this what life is?
I mean is this, if this is it then fine, but maybe there’s another way. I’m
really not very good at being crazy busy. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like it. I
find it really, really stressful, and Anthony was rushing around in his little
universe, running his
22:04:59:01 business and I was rushing in my universe running our bus, my
business, and you know, it just, it just felt crazy. And then when I found
I was pregnant with my second child, Ant and I just both thought that’s
it, we should work together. We’ve always wanted to work together.
I’ve worked with him on lots of different projects. This could be the
opportunity where we could have it all.
22:05:29:24 We could have this, a wonderful business that we’re building together,
so we’re not building two businesses, we’re building one business, an
amazing family life. We can, you know, we won’t have to work in an
office, we can share the parenting, we can share all that responsibility
and we can share the business side, and maybe it will make our lives feel
more enjoyable, more
22:05:59:07 satisfying. Maybe it will just be different, and it has, it really has. It’s been
so incredible. Um, I don’t feel like a mad, headless chicken anymore,
I feel like I have this very full, interesting life, and I’m doing really
interesting things, but I’m able to enjoy it. I can enjoy my family, I can
enjoy my work, I can enjoy my husband. It doesn’t, you know. So that
was the kind of very practical,
22:06:35:16 life realisation, this is, you know, the practical side of me, um, and that’s
why I wanted to do it. But I fell in love with Anthony mainly because
of his talent, and when we first met we were working together. He’s
extraordinarily talents. I find the way that he looks at the world incredibly
moving, incredibly inspiring, and to be able to be part of that, to you
know, to enable more people to see

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22:07:09:00 his work, to be inspired, as I feel inspired by his work, I think is, you
know, it just feels like such a perfect match. We couldn’t have done it
before, but this was the right time.
So tell me what’s the kind of, what’s the, what was the plan with um,
Cities at Dawn publishing. Just talk me through the kind of process,
you know, was it… It’s got lots of different facets, the book, workshops,
exhibitions, da, da, da. So just tell me what kind of the plan was.

Um, initially we thought that our plan for the business was that we would
create a series of books, and we would run the workshops and we would
sell prints and have exhibitions. And that was really as far as I kind of
knew, because I think sometimes until you start something and you start
talking to people about it, you don’t really know where it’s going to go.
You don’t know
22:08:19:20 where it’s going to fit into other people’s businesses and who, who’s going
to want to partner with you, and who’s going to see the opportunities of
what you’re presenting. So we do have that structure. We do have the
books and the exhibitions and the workshops, but we’ve been able to kind
of adapt it along the way. So we didn’t go with a publisher. We talked to
lots of different
22:08:48:13 publishers and we decided, you know, that’s really not where… That
wasn’t the right decision for us, it wasn’t, it’s not where the creative world,
in many respects is heading, working with these big organisations who,
you know, pick lots and lots and lots and lots of little people and, you
know, put out there book, that really it was about taking ownership of our
creative project and

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22:09:13:03 pushing it out there into the world and finding people who were excited
and interested. So that was a massive change to our original plan, um,
but that’s, that’s the thing. Until you go out and you talk to people you
don’t know that necessarily these opportunities are out there, and then
with our workshops, things you know, we thought well, we’ve had a few
here and we’ve had a few
22:09:38:09 there. We’ll do some London workshops. We didn’t really think it would
be a huge part of the business, but people have been so excited and
so passionate about it, and so we’ve partnered with lots of different
organisations who, you know, promote it and who work with us. And
then um, you know, we’ve been approached by other people, like a hotel
chain who want, um,
22:10:01:13 Anthony to be an artist in residence, um, newspapers, all kinds of
different people who think wow, this is a really interesting idea, I really
want to be part of this, I want to, I want to get behind this. So we have
these kind of activities and these projects that we’re doing and then we
work with other people to help make them happen. Does that make
sense?
Yes. Okay.

So over the last, um, couple of years we’ve built up this really lovely
business. It’s very sort, it’s all of us, it’s the whole family who are involved,
and that’s really beautiful. We um, have a series, the, our series of books
that we’re publishing, and we’ve published our first two. We have others
in the pipeline that we’re working on. We run workshops, photography
workshops, at

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22:10:54:00 dawn in London, Paris and Venice, with other cities that we’re adding,
and they’re amazing. They… Anthony takes keen photographers out at
dawn to explore these cities, learn photography, take amazing pictures,
and then we also sell prints and limited edition prints by Anthony and we
have lovely greetings cards, and a few other little, little products. So we’ve
taken this
22:11:26:06 concept of cities at dawn, which we find so inspiring and so beautiful,
and really tried to adapt it into different, um, ways to communicate and
to engage people and to inspire people, so they can get involved or they
can look at something that Anthony has done, they can create their own
work. Um, that we really wanted to it to be a whole community effect,
that you were attracting
22:11:52:08 we were attracting people who were as inspired about this time of day
and kind of build this wonderful, artistic brand that really celebrated in, in
a really interesting and sometimes challenging and [MOBILE]
22:12:14:10 CHATTER
Take me on the journey of how the book or, you know, was published and
stuff like that, like that.

Take you on the journey of how?
Take me on the whole journey.

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The whole journey from start to finish, okay.

So when we decided we wanted to produce a series of books, our first step
was to go and see some publishers, and they were generally very positive
about the project but there was always a but. The, the kind of main
response was the pictorial, illustrative travel books, that kind of genre,
um, was really suffering, bookshops are suffering, it was really hard to sell
any books, as
22:13:05:24 far as they were concerned, and but particularly this type of book,
particularly photography, travel types of books. And we had some offers,
but they were really lame, you know, like we’re not going to pay you
anything, and you know, maybe you’ll get 5p in three years when we’ve
sold, you know, 50,000 books, and we thought mm, yes, that’s, that’s
really now what we were hoping
22:13:37:19 to hear. Um, and then somebody who had published a series of
incredibly successful travel books said to us why don’t you self publish,
because that’s what they had done, and they had ended up selling a
quarter of a million books. So we thought, oh, okay. You know, I mean at
first I thought are you kidding me, I mean why would we do that? That
just sounds so lame, self
22:14:02:03 publishing, it sounds like oh, no-one likes you, but you’re going to…
No-one wants your book but you’re going to go ahead and do it anyway,
why would, I mean it was not appealing at all. But then I started looking
around at different projects, and different photography projects and
books and, you know, just kind of looking around the industry and the
creative industries and the kind

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22:14:25:12 main reason, actually, that we decided to go through a crowd-funding
platform and to self publish, was that we had crowd funded for a different
project that Anthony was working on about the Homeless World Cup, and
it was extremely popular. It was really successful, and we managed to
raise the money to send Anthony to photograph the Homeless World Cup
in Mexico, a
22:14:53:21 and we thought wow, this could be a great opportunity for us, and we
looked into crowd funding, and it really is…
22:15:01:14 CREW DIRECTION

And we looked into crowd funding, and it really is just, it’s a massive part
of the creative industries now. Film, design, product development, all
kind, all areas of kind of creative business are in some way involved in
crowd funding. There’s, you know, massive statistics that, you know, I
don’t know, one in ten or probably maybe even more, films at Sundance
were crowd funded. So
22:15:36:13 that kind of began to feel like more of a possibility, not just some you
know, we can’t get a publishing deal so we’re just going to go and you
know, hand print a few books and see if we can sell them out of the back
of a car. It felt like a, something that was real and respected and a good
chance for us to get this work out there. And it really was the best thing
we ever did, really the
22:16:07:22 best thing, because when we went through that process of putting the
book together, and then you put it out there, before you’ve printed it,
before you’ve put it into shops and you say look, people, do you want this
book? Yes or no. And people said yes, so it was like the most amazing
piece of market research that you could ever do, because people are, are
pre-purchasing your

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22:16:39:21 product, before they’ve seen it, before they’ve felt it, before they’ve seen
the quality of the paper, any of that stuff, and um, I just realised that,
wow, the traditional ways of doing things aren’t, you know, maybe they
work for some things but they don’t have to work for everything, and it
really opened our mind to how we could move forward as a business, and
it was just, is, is very
22:17:05:15 exciting, really exciting. Because you have this opportunity now, as a
creative business, to access all of these different platforms. So there’s
crowd funding or, you know, marketplace selling, any of these different
um, avenues, where you can just be two people but you can have this
global reach if you do it cleverly, if you kind of, you know, if you, if you
have a great story to tell, if you
22:17:41:04 have a brand and people are interested and inspired by what you do, so
we’re picking up little members of our audience all over the world. Is that,
is that what you want?
Yes.
So what was it like doing two books and two exhibitions all at the same
time? I mean that’s a… Just doing one of those things, but you did four, I
mean all at the same time in the process of a couple of months. Tell me,
just tell me er

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Ridiculous, fucking ridiculous! Um… I think it’s really important in
business, but also in life, to know what your personality is, what your
strengths are, and, and what your weaknesses are. And what can be a
strength, but it also can be a weakness is my personality is that I do, I
tend to put a lot of things on my plate at the same time, and I, you know
I… Anthony and I work so differently
22:18:48:20 Sorry, sorry, I’m going to stop. [MUMBLES]

Um, Anthony and I work so differently. Anthony wants to mull things
over and gestate work for fucking, you know, donkeys, and I want to get
it done. So what I end up doing is I put these markers in the sand of like
right, you know. I make ridiculous deadlines or things that I know were
achievable that probably feel a bit tense, but it’s, it’s quite hard to work to.
So I put these
22:19:29:02 markers in the sand for us, and then we just have to do it, because I just
feel otherwise we’ll just carry on talking about it, and shall we do this,
and shall we do that, shall we put this picture here and that picture there?
You know, for me, even though it irritates Anthony no end, that I create
these ridiculous deadlines, it helps both of us focus um, move towards
something um, and
22:20:00:07 achieve something because I, I just… I can’t stand not having achieved,
you know, having been, you know… I can’t stand not achieving things.
I can’t stand just working on something over time with no end point.
There must be an end point, there must be a goal. There must be some
focus to this. And I didn’t always think that having a long time to do
things necessarily makes the

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22:20:29:19 product or the project better. You know, the way that I think a lot of
people work is they’ll think okay, I’ve got six months to do this, and they’ll
take it easy for the first few months: oh, I’ve got ages, I’ve got ages, and
then they think oh gosh, four months, okay, right, better work a bit harder
now. And they work a bit harder, but not hard enough, and then they
suddenly hit two
22:20:49:16 months and then they go, oh my God, shit, I’ve only got two months, and
then they work really, really, really hard, and their focus and that narrow
minded, you know, focus often brings out their best, their absolute best.
And you’re always thinking gosh, I wish I had much more time, I really
do, I could do so, I could do a much better job if I had more time, but I
don’t think the human
22:21:14:20 mind, well I don’t work like that. Anthony doesn’t work like that. I think
you know, lots of people that I’ve worked with and managed have not
worked like that. Um, maybe if you’re writing a PhD or you’re, you know,
a historian or something, I don’t know, and you have an ability to have,
you know, good appropriate focus every [INAUDIBLE] um, but I do think
yes, I’m a real fan
22:21:41:20 of oh, ridiculous deadlines, but deadlines that are challenging, because I
think it, it really does help to focus the mind, and I think particularly for
Anthony and I because we have our business, but then we also have our
family, and we home school our son, and we have lots of other things
going on in our lives, and you know, we can spend. That can, that can
kind of take over in many
22:22:07:22 respects, you know, our whole kind of focus of home schooling is, is
about doing interesting things and talking about interesting things,
and you know, creating l, a kind of permanent learning space within
our home. And so, you know, we could be up, you know, half the night
talking with our son about, you know, regional politics or you know, how
to start a sofa business, you know,

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22:22:36:18 what… So… I think it’s important to have those, those goals within your
business, um…
22:22:45:10 CHATTER

So we decided to produce two books last year, and two exhibitions,
completely different exhibitions, er, which was ridiculous. I mean it was
crazy, absolutely crazy. I mean it would have been great just to do one
of those things. Because we also, obviously, have all of the other things
going on. We have our workshops, we have Anthony’s commercial work,
we have you
22:23:09:20 know, a million other things to do, but we decided to produce these
books. I think we had, I don’t know, three or four months… I think we
had four months to design, produce, print and ship the books, run our
crowd funding campaign, print two different exhibitions, host them,
do all the press, do all the sales, everything for those projects, and it was
completely, completely mental,
22:23:52:01 completely mental. But, having said that, I feel like, um, the reason why
we do things like that is because if there isn’t a focal point, and if it’s not,
you know, quite immediate, then things just don’t get done. Anthony and
I seem to respond really well to intense deadlines. I think most people
respond well to intense deadlines, to be honest, um, and so that’s why I
do it. You know,
22:24:26:23 there are other times when, you know, it’s taken us three months to,
you know, write five Tweets and send a couple of emails. I mean when
you don’t have that focus I think you can be, it can be really bad for your
business, so it was completely crazy, it was probably too much. Um, if I
did it again, I might have taken one of the exhibitions away and maybe
space things out a little

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22:25:03:07 bit, but you know, we did it, we did it well, and it was successful, and it
was amazing, it was an amazing rush.
Cool.

Is that?
I mean I guess what I’m saying is that over the various points of the film,
you were really nervous. You didn’t know whether it was going to work
financially. There was no kind of [INTERRUPTION] contingency in terms
of time if you missed one of these dates or if one of these things didn’t
do… all the house of cards just kind of fell apart, and [INTERRUPTION]
wrong, and I mean I
22:25:39:09 guess I’m trying to get you to go there and connect with how you felt at
the time and, knowing now, you know, in respect.

Yes. It was really nerve wracking, really nerve wracking, It’s really hard
to remember the intricacies of how I felt, even just a few months ago,
because you move… You know, when you run a business everything
moves really quickly, and particularly if you’re doing something that
you’ve never done before and you have no idea how to do it, you know.
You’re constantly in
22:26:23:12 the water feeling kind of danger, danger, and you’re just waiting to see
some safe land to climb on and then you know, maybe get to a bit of safe
land and then you’re back in the water again, and you know. It, it is, it is
incredibly nerve wracking, and you know, now I feel like we’ve reached a
place of calm and safety because we’ve been through that whole process.
I mean, I think

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22:26:47:18 probably the hardest thing is not knowing what you’re doing. You’re
doing something for completely the first time. You’re trusting so many
people with your time and with your money, with your, you know,
with your baby, essentially, it’s your project. You know, will the printer
completely screw it up and produce some horror show of a book, you
know. Will no, will no-one
22:27:17:18 come to the exhibition? You know, all these different elements that
you’re, you have, really, you know, do your best, you don’t really have any
control over. That is really, really, really hard and you know, the more
times you do it the more you can gauge, okay, well, this is you know,
this is what could go wrong and this is what, you know, probably will go
wrong. These are the
22:27:42:00 things to look out for. That kind of knowledge is just, you know, it’s
priceless. And that’s why, you know, a lot of people, I think, don’t set
up businesses because they think, you know, I don’t know how to do
all these different things. Well, the only way you learn is to do it. So
you’ve got to jump in, fuck everything up, make a load of mistakes, do
something really well, and then
22:28:07:07 think okay, how can I do that all again and do it better? And then how
can I do that all again and do it even better? You know, it’s a process of
constant learning, and that’s incredibly exciting but it is, it is very nerve
wracking, and you constantly have to remind yourself, okay, this is hard,
this is really stressful, this is really nerve wracking but, you know, I am
also going through
22:28:31:15 a learning process here.
Were you nervous before the exhibitions?

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Tut, God. I was totally petrified before we had both exhibitions. I think
it came through because I messed up my back the day before the second
exhibition, and I could barely walk. I was on painkillers at the show, you
know, slightly kind of hi, hello everyone, which was horrible. Um, but
it’s just, I don’t know, it’s really… You put so much of yourself into these
things and
22:29:21:01 you just want people to come and to like what you’re doing and to
everyone else it seems like oh, you know, it’s just them doing another
exhibition, how cool, you know. Isn’t that, isn’t that nice that they’re
doing that? And, you know, they’ll come and maybe they’ll buy a book
and maybe they’ll do this and, you know, maybe they’ll kind of be
supportive. Maybe they’ll, you know,
22:29:50:17 um, maybe they’ll not notice or forget, whatever. You know, it’s just a
small thing in everyone else’s lives, of course, um, but it’s such a big thing
in our life and you just really want people to say wow, that’s really, that’s
really amazing. I, you know, one small moment of my life I feel really
inspired, or I really love what you’re doing, or I love that picture or I want
to be involved in what you’re
22:30:23:05 doing and when people do it’s just like, it’s the most incredible feeling in
the world. Because you’ve produced something that people want to be
around, and they want to be involved in, and they want to look at and
they want to touch it and they want to feel it and, you know, it’s not quite
as amazing as having a child, but it is of that same intoxicating beauty. It
just, it feels
22:30:56:14 wonderful. You know, you’ve put your heart on a plate, and you don’t
know if people are going to come along and spit on it because they think
oh, this is shit, or if they’re going to embrace you. You don’t know what’s
going to happen.

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Exhibition obviously, the big crescendo to the whole year, really, wasn’t it?

Um, yes. We had an exhibition at Foyle’s, and that was the sort of end
point of this whole journey. Um, I mean beginning point in a lot of ways,
because that’s, we started to sell the books, but it was the, the kind of
main event um, after all these months of doing the book and, annoying
everyone we know with our crowd funding campaign, and producing
this big public exhibition at
22:31:57:06 St. Pancras. Then there was this kind of last event and it was Foyle’s and
it was an exhibition, but it was also our opportunity to invite everybody
we know, including the people who’d contributed to the crowd funding
campaign, and you know, anyone we thought would be interested, um, to
come and see the work and celebrate with us and it was um, it was really
magical. I mean I
22:32:25:00 completely screwed up my back and I was, you know, couldn’t lift
anything, you know, and couldn’t even put the, you know, cocktails
together, um, and it was a bit crazy. But, you know, when… It’s kind of
overwhelming, because we had, yes, it was a two hour event, and a few
people started coming in, and then all of a sudden the place is packed,
absolutely packed, and we were
22:33:01:12 rushing around trying to talk to everybody and say hi to everybody, and
make sure that, you know, we um, you know, we acknowledge everyone
who had come to support us, and then it was gone, it was like… It was
such a crazy intense time. But I think any time that anyone, anyone
takes time out of their lives to come and see what you’re doing and pay
attention, is just, it is such

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22:33:31:00 an incredible honour. It really just shows you that what you’re doing,
you’re on the right path, that people think this is, you know, worthy
enough of people’s attention. And I don’t think, you know, you can’t
assume that, you really can’t assume it, because you know, there’s a
million other things that are competing for people’s attention and why
should they come to what you’re
22:34:00:05 doing and, you know, what’s so special about what you’re doing? So for
us it was just a really beautiful event, because it was this culmination
of all this intense work and this worry and anxiety and, you know, the
countless times that Anthony and I had conversations over what the fuck
are we doing? Why are we doing this? Why are we doing this? This is
ridiculous, this is
22:34:29:15 completely ridiculous why, you know… This is not what, you know,
grown up people do. Um, sacrificing the future of our children, and you
know, we’re going to put ourselves in the poor house, blah, blah, blah.
Um, you know, it’s just, it is so special when people come and, and they
say, you know, well done, well done. So um, yes, it’s like you’re, you’re
kind of sighing. You’ve
22:35:04:09 got this huge release of energy and you’re like, oh my gosh, okay. [SIGH]
I’ve done it, I’ve done it, and then you have people come over and say
you know, you’ve done it really well, and that’s um, it’s just an amazing
feeling, amazing.
So tell me about the success of um, the Foyle’s exhibition. Did you sell
loads of books?

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We did, actually. [INTERRUPTION] Yes. Um, the Foyle’s exhibition was
wonderful, because it was in this, my favourite book shop, for sure in the
whole of London, maybe even the world. Yes, this temple to books and
beauty and learning and all these wonderful things. So it was amazing
that we had an exhibition there. They had been incredible supporters of
the book.
22:36:04:10 They had, you know, kind of, throughout the whole process had been
really helpful and really encouraging, and probably the only people in
the whole official book industry who were really encouraging. So it was
wonderful to be able to exhibit the work there and have the book there,
um, and have all these people come um, and we sold loads of books, we
sold prints, we sold our
22:36:37:14 greetings cars. Like, you know, it was, it was really special. Um, but you
never know how these things are going to go and that’s it, you know, you
could end up selling nothing but, thankfully, we sold very well.
Um, okay.

The St. Pancras exhibition that we did was just amazing. Um, we had
thousands, of not hundreds of thousands of people see the work during
the two weeks that it was at the station, and I think what was amazing
about it was it was one of the first. It was a, it was the first big public
exhibition that Anthony had done, so it wasn’t just engaging people who
would walk into an

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22:37:35:04 art gallery or an arty creative space. It wasn’t just, you know, people
who’d kind of tracked it, him down, or tracked the exhibition down, it
was there in this incredible building, I mean so beautiful. People are
there to go to Paris. They’re in this lovely mood, hopefully, probably,
likely, and we were right outside Foyle’s bookshop, which is a wonderful
bookshop, um, and we had,
22:38:13:08 you know, thousands, you know, I think something like 15,000 a day
walking past the exhibition and seeing the work, and looking at it and
stopping and dreaming and you know, absorbing the work, and it was
these massive, massive prints. And they were just incredible quality, and
really, really stunning and it just makes me feel tearful thinking about
how beautiful they
22:38:39:03 were. Um, so it was just, it was just great to marry up the, the whole
London Paris connection, the books, the prints, and that whole kind of
sense, I mean I suppose with the dawn, you know, when I’ve gone out at
dawn with Anthony it feels a bit kind of special, it’s a bit of a special time.
It’s very unusual, you know, and it is a bit like going on holiday, you know,
you’re out of your daily
22:39:11:12 routine, you’re noticing things a little bit more, you’re a bit more kind of
aware of your surroundings. You’re a little bit more sensitive, so I think
it really worked because it wasn’t just, you know, an exhibition space
anywhere. It wasn’t just out in the street or something, it was in this
building. People were really, you know, there’s a wonderful energy to the
building um, because of
22:39:38:18 where they’re going and why they’re there, um, and also just the space is
incredible, it’s really incredible.
I don’t, I don’t think it could have gone any better. It was the perfect
place for us to launch this enterprise, the books, the prints, you know,
the images. It is such a beautiful place, such a… You know, you feel
excited when you’re there because it’s so unique and it’s so special. And
I just thought it, you know, it, it looked wonderful and people really, um,
engaged with it. They

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22:40:26:10 were really responsive. Yes, it was really, it was quite a relief because it
was, you know, it was a, a punt for us, like we had to find the best space
for us to do this in, and when we talked to St Pancras, you know, it’s an
unusual space to show art, in a train station. But I think the fact that it
wasn’t just any train station, you know, there are many, you know, less
desirable train stations.
22:41:02:02 They’ve really taken such incredible steps to make it quite a unique um, a
unique space, but the fact that it’s also, you know, you’ve got this kind of
whole connection to Paris just made it really quite wonderful.
Just talk me through that kind of [INAUDIBLE] St Pancras and in Foyle’s
you didn’t have one minute, you were just going straight from one to the
other, weren’t you?

Yes, so just that timeline?
Yes, yes. Like, as soon as you’d done this.

Um…

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Um, so as soon as we’d finished the St Pancras exhibition, we had to
immediately go on and exhibit at Foyle’s. So we’d lined them up, you
know, one after the other, which was really crazy and, and stressful. I
don’t think any of us, either of us had any time off at all, and our son kept
saying, you know, I’ve forgotten what my dad looks like. [LAUGH] Er, but
we um, we
22:42:16:01 really wanted to have an exhibition at Foyle’s before the whole Christmas
season started in its kind of proper entirety, so we um, we organised this
exhibition and they have a lovely gallery at their flagship store in Charing
Cross Road, which is the largest bookshop in Europe, so we had the
exhibition there, and, and launched that in November.
So from the kind of
22:42:43:03 beginning I think we started designing the books in June, and then we
were… The books were printed and delivered in October. We had the
St Pancras exhibition in October, then we had the Foyle’s exhibition in
November, and in between that time we then also ran the crowd funding
campaign, and so yes, it was ridiculously intense few months, ridiculous,
but really fun, really fun.
Was it all worth it?

It was really worth it. I would do it again for sure. W ell, we are going to
do it again. Um, I, I think, I don’t know. It takes a lot of energy to get
these projects off the ground, and I really, really, really enjoy doing it. I
think my personality is suited to getting, you know, small rocks up hills,
small hills [LAUGH] Um, and I really enjoy that challenge, I really enjoy it.
So I think

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22:44:15:06 probably at the time I think why the fuck do I do this, ‘cause we also,
you know, are having to make a living in other ways [SNIFF] through
Anthony’s photography and it never feels like there’s enough time in the
day sometimes, and I think why, why did I sign up for this, but I don’t
know, I just um, it’s so rewarding, it’s so rewarding, it’s so satisfying at the
end of the day, it’s worth
22:44:46:19 all of it. I mean I would not, I, I could not imagine sitting in an office
working for somebody else, you know, doing things that they asked me
to do, on ideas I hadn’t created. You know, I just, I’d rather live in this
crazy, ridiculous life of we never know if there’s any money coming in
and some, you know, it’s feast and famine. You know, we’ve got loads one
month and nothing the next. I’d
22:45:25:03 much rather do that. I mean last year there was a point where we looked
at our bank account and we had £1.56 in our bank, and we had no idea
when the next amount of money was coming in and um, you know, we
were like [GASPS]. But, [SIGH] I just, I wouldn’t change it at all, I wouldn’t.
I couldn’t imagine not doing something that I really, really love.
I mean it is, it is, I’ve talked about this with Tony, it is a risk that you did,
you guys took a huge risk, didn’t you? Just talk me through that. I mean
the stability of your, you know, job and that, just talk me through that
whole thing,

We took a massive financial risk doing this, because before we started
this together and I was running another business, I had a regular salary
and Anthony’s work was fairly regular. I mean we had predictable clients
that would come in at predictable times. We knew we could pay our rent
every month, we knew we could… You know, we, we had a set amount of
money,

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22:46:55:13 like, that was coming in. Um, and doing this has, essentially, been
jumping off a cliff and not knowing where any money is going to come
from, because Anthony’s had to spend so much time focusing on this. A
lot of times he’s never, he hasn’t even had the time to do other work that
is more predictable, and I don’t have, you know, I don’t have a predictable
salary any more. So
22:47:26:09 yes, it has been um, has been really, really intense, risk wise, but I think
um,… I don’t know, I just, I don’t, I would never want to get to the end of
my life and think, you know, we could have tried that but we didn’t. Okay.

Um, I don’t know. I mean I, I don’t enjoy the sensation of not knowing
where the next bit of money is coming from. I find it, you know,
alarming, like any normal person would, and there have been times when
there has been no money coming in for weeks and sometimes months
on end. Things are a lot, a lot easier now. We have regular income
coming in from sales of workshops
22:48:25:11 and books and things like that, so it is a lot more predictable, and we feel
a lot more kind of safe. But running a business, you’re never, you know,
you can never tell from this year to next. There is very little predictability
in any business. But when I think about kind of jumping off this cliff and
not having a regular salary…

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Um, when I think about jumping off this cliff and not having a regular
salary, I do think that, you know, no-one’s safe. I mean people who have
jobs think oh phew, I’m safe. Well, maybe they do, maybe they don’t,
but I’m presuming that they feel more safe than I do financially, you
know. But you don’t know what’s around the corner. You could get fired,
something could happen.
22:49:23:17 Your, you know, there could be a housing bubble or, you know, there’s
many, many financial possibilities for ruin, you know. Um, and I don’t,
I just don’t believe that there is this incredibly safe place that you can
be in financially for most people, yes, if you have, you know, ten million
pounds in the bank, you know, I’m surely you’re a lot safer than the
average person. But I think for
22:49:56:10 most people who are you know, don’t have a lot of excess money, which
is most people, um, I, I just don’t think that you’re any less safe by doing,
doing what we’re doing. It’s just, it’s just alarming and, and… Sorry, I’m
rambling now.

Yes. I honestly don’t think it’s… Okay. Um, it is highly unstable, starting
a business in, for most people. The lack of predictable salary is, um, is
really hard, and you have to get your head around the fact that, you know,
sometimes you’re going to have to scramble around and make the money
so that you can pay your rent. Um, but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have it any
other

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22:51:16:14 way, because you’re building something, and every single time somebody
buys something from you it’s like they’re almost buying a piece of you.
They love what you do, and that money is so much more, it’s just so
much more kind of powerful, because they have bought something that
you’ve created. They haven’t just given you money to do a job or this,
that and the other, it’s
22:51:49:01 something that you have created. It’s an incredible feeling, incredible
feeling um, and it’s different to, to having a job, you know. You’ve created
something from nothing. There was nothing here in this space before
you came along, and you created it and people want to buy it. Like wow,
wow!

What else do you want to know?
Do you guys work well as a team? Sorry.

Um…
Sorry, yes go on.

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I think any business is a journey, and we’re not there yet. We haven’t
achieved everything we want to achieve, but it’s working. That’s the most
incredible thing. There’s loads of things, still, that we want to perfect
and so many more things that we want to do, but I think accepting this
imperfect beat is really important. Constantly trying to improve it is also
really important,
22:53:02:09 but it’s this, you’ve got to… There’s kind of two things that you’re
constantly kind of accepting in your head that you want to drive it
forward and make it amazing, and build and go to the next level and go to
the next level and go to the next level, and also accept and enjoy the fact
that it is this ever evolving journey. So there’s really, actually, no there to
get to, but there are still more
22:53:27:02 things that we want to achieve. Does that make sense?
No, that’s good. So do you guys work well as a team?

Um, er, yes, I, I think we do, Anthony and I, work pretty well as a team,
with many caveats. Our personalities are, in a lot of ways, really suited to
work with each other because we are really, really different and we have
different skills, but often the different personalities make for incredible
stress and tension, and me wanting to poke his eyes out with a fork. But…
[LAUGH]
22:54:27:15 overall I think we work well. I think because, I don’t, I don’t think our
personalities are… Sorry.

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I think our personalit… Sorry… [INTERRUPTION] I think our
personalities work fairly well together, but we do drive each other insane
a lot, and we’re both incredibly argumentative people. There is, you
know, why have peace and serenity when you can be pissing each other
off and, you know, annoying each other. Um, so that can be an issues.
But I think… You know, I’ve
22:55:16:16 spoken to so many people who’ve said oh, I could never work with my
husband, oh, I could never work with my wife, so I feel that, you know,
we’ve achieved something working together. But on a day to day level we
couldn’t sit next to each other and, and work. We have to come together,
talk, explore and then go away and do what we need to do, because I
particularly drive
22:55:43:11 Anthony a bit crazy because he has such a different work process to
me, and I obviously think it’s inferior to my work process, and I want
to tell him and remind that if he did things my way it would, you know,
life would be so much better. So that um, can sometimes cause some
tension, and, and he also just has a very, he has a much more relaxed way
of approaching tasks, which I
22:56:13:17 think can be, you know, a bit 19th century. I need to kind of move quite
quickly in this modern age. Um, but, yes, I, I don’t know, it, it’s up and
down, but I think what’s great is that we don’t really focus on each other,
we focus on the business, so we both know that we love this business
more than anything. We both know that this is so incredibly important
to us, so we can
22:56:47:20 ignore each other’s deficiencies and the irritations to get the job done
most of the time.

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Do you, do you have to force him to do things sometimes?

I have to force Anthony to do things all the time, and he gets so
annoyed, and he spends a lot of time protesting, and I just force him
to do it anyway. Particularly writing emails to certain, you know to
people, certain responses. I mean, you know, I want everything done
now. Some, you know, an opportunity comes in, I want to grab that
opportunity now and I want it firmed
22:57:25:12 up now, and I want, you know, everything done now, I don’t want to wait
until tomorrow. Why would you want to wait until tomorrow? So, um,
yes, I’m constantly making him do things, and he sits there and he gets
really annoyed with me and he, “Why are you doing this to me, Di? Why
can’t we do this later? Why are we doing this now? I mean, oh my God,
Di.” You know,
22:57:50:10 there’s just loads of protesting, but I just keep on and, and make him do
it, and he’s like, “Oh, I’m really glad we did that, “ and I’m yes, so am I. So,
um, yes, I have to force him to do a lot of stuff that he doesn’t want to do.
Does that answer the question? No?
Yes, yes, it does. You do, you have two kind of different… I’ve seen, I’ve
seen you get both very excited, but you have kind of two different levels
of excitement.

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Um, I get excited all of the time, um, Anthony does rarely gets excited,
and never in anticipation. It’s always kind of after the fact or yes, we have
com… We really have different, very, very different personalities. He
works at such a… You know, he exists in a much more measured universe
to me. I’m much more like ping, ping, ping all over the place, up and
down, and there’s
22:59:00:00 I have a lot more energy than he does, um, and he’s much more kind of
day to day thorough, less energy but more consistent. And I think that,
you know, it is irritating to have two people in the same room being like
that, but it’s good for the business, because he represents consistency, I
represent, you know, the goals and the focus and the constantly pushing
the business to the next
22:59:35:00 level, to the next level, to the next level. I mean, you know, that is a very
simple way of describing it, because obviously he does push and, the
business too, and I can be consistent in some ways. Um, but overall,
those would be the kind of very stark descriptions of, of what we’re like.
Yes, he goes away a lot to Paris and Venice and stuff like that. Is it, is it
tough when he goes away? You know, with kids and stuff.

Um, I don’t think it’s tough when Anthony is away, because we’re both
really independent people and we also exist in a very intense universe
together of work and family, and we’re obviously great friends as well,
and you know, he’s my best friend, and he is the first I can talk to about
everything and vice versa. So we have this real intense life, and so I think
probably what helps

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23:00:48:10 keep that life going is that we also spend time apart and I, you know, I, I
really need it. We need to have something that is not shared. We need to
have something that is, you know, different space, time, you know. It’s
hard work being married, let alone working with your spouse.
But it must be hard on the kids.

Yes. I… As um, Theo’s got older, it’s got much harder. I mean he didn’t
notice before. There wasn’t really… You know, when Anthony’s been
away before it hasn’t really been a big deal, but he really notices it now. I
think he’s used to it, though, because, you know, it’s like this sort of feast
or famine as well, with him. You know, he’s either got tons of time with
the kids, you know,
23:01:47:09 and we’re sitting at home on Monday having lunch, you know, and
everyone else is kind of out being responsible in their responsible lives,
and we’re… or he’s away, you know. It’s like, there is, or he’s really, really
busy. So there is lots of time when we are all, you know, we’re all together
for long periods of time, and we obviously also go away with him. Um,
for you know, for
23:02:19:09 journeys as well, and for travelling as well. So yes, I think, I think the
kids get a lot of him. I think we get, we all, as a family, spend a lot of time
together, but there are, then, on the flip side of that there are times when
we don’t see him very much. It is hard on the kids when Anthony’s away,
or when he’s working an incredible amount because, you know, kids
want to see their

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23:02:48:07 parents every single day. But I think what they’ve got used to is that they
have times when they see him all the time, when we go away with him
or when we are quiet in the business, and we have periods when it’s quiet
and he’s there at home all the time, and he’s not going into our office and
he’s working from home. So they see him more than I think the average
child sees
23:03:20:03 their father, um, and I think that’s wonderful, so I think that on some
level they, they expect, okay, you know, they, they have accepted that
then he will be away. But, you know, they also can’t rationalise that in
the way that I can and they desperately, desperately miss him when he’s
away, desperately, particularly our son, because he’s eight. He wants to,
you know, he wants to
23:03:53:17 see his dad every single day for as long as possible and do as many, you
know, crazy things together as possible. So yes, I don’t think it’s, it’s easy,
but it’s worth it because when he’s back, when he’s less busy there are just
incredible amounts of family time together, which is one of the reasons
why we wanted to do this in the first place. I don’t want to just, you know,
neither
23:04:24:08 of us wanted to just be people who you know, saw them maybe a little bit
at breakfast and a little bit at dinner and then, you know, at the weekends.
We were wanting to have really epic amounts of time with our kids, um,
but the sacrifice is that there will be times when he doesn’t see them, you
know, for a couple of weeks.
Where do you see yourselves in five years time?

Oh my God. Where do we see ourselves? Okay. Um…

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23:05:10:03 CHATTER

[SIGH]
Where does the future lie for Cities at Dawn, and the Epes family?

So what I really want to happen over the next five years is that our
business grows exponentially and becomes something that it’s not just
a few thousand people have bought our products and engaged in what
we’re doing, but it’s hundreds of thousands of people, that we’re able to
go to different cities, that we’ve travelled all over the world, and that we’ve
really kind of shown people
23:05:48:12 and revealed to people this incredible beauty of, of dawn in these really
crazy, intense, chaotic cities. And I want the reputation of Cities at Dawn
and Anthony to be, you know, really big and really powerful. I want us
to have a business that, you know, we constantly are innovating and
pushing and encouraging, but has established itself and we’re doing, you
know, lots of
23:06:27:11 exciting and interesting projects. I just, I want to continue to be able to
get up in the morning and be excited by what’s, you know, on the horizon
for the day, and to take these ideas and make them happen and show, you
know, show people um, what Anthony has seen in these cities. So I really
want it to be, I you know, not a massive global or international company,
because that’s not

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23:07:01:13 what it is, it’s an artistic, creative endeavour, but I want it to be a lot bigger,
and for us to have done more projects, and for Anthony’s reputation to be,
you know… I want him to be, you know, well known. Um, and I think that
it feels, you know, the reason why I can take all the difficult days and the
hard times and the looking at the £1.56 bank account is that it feels right,
you
23:07:41:16 know. It feels, it’s not… It’s hard, but you know, the, the, it’s all the kind of
peripheral bits are hard, but the actual product and the creative journey
that Anthony’s been on and all of that feels completely effortless and easy
and so I know that us working together and us being together and doing
this work together is the absolute perfect thing for me to be doing, um,
and I just want
23:08:20:01 to carry on doing it. I want to keep growing it. I want to keep challenging
myself. I want to keep challenging Anthony. I want to keep challenging
the business, create new partnerships, create new sales opportunities,
you know, just keep growing this wonderful thing that we’ve created, um,
and make it sustainable. Because I think it’s, you know, it’s really, really
difficult to create
23:08:48:01 something genuine, creative, unique, that isn’t massively commercial.
It’s not a line of plastic toys or, you know, some crass interpretation of
the city, it’s a very intensely unique and artistic project, and those are the
hardest things to create and to sustain and to build, because it’s, you’re
not thinking right, what will people buy, we’ll make that. You’re thinking
I have this artistic vision, I
23:09:31:19 really hope people will want to be a part of it and enjoy it. So, you know,
it’s coming from such an intensely genuine place for Anthony. It’s not
coming from this desire to make money or to dominate the world or
to create a whole line of t-shirts, you know, it’s coming from a place of
himself that’s very, you know, is very genuine, and creating, kind of
commercialising those is hard.

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23:10:16:01 You know, it’s not a natural, natural thing to do, so we want to keep the
integrity of Anthony’s work. We want to make that the kind of core of
what we’re doing and just hope that people keep wanting to be involved
and buy the books and buy prints and, you know, help us grow the
company, um, because we’ve set this up because we want to really, you
know, inspire
23:10:49:20 people and to touch people, I mean to make them feel something. Um,
and so, you know, if that can create a business for us, and if that can
create, you know, what we’re giving is useful and valuable to people, and
we can then, you know, build our business around that, that’s just oh
wow, I mean it’s like heaven, heaven. That’s really, you know, really, really
incredible.
Sorry, actually I forgot to ask you a question about the Foyle’s thing when
Tony gave his speech he got all welled up. You could see it was a real
emotional thing there, and I think you had a little cry as well. Tell me
about that.

It was really emotional at the Foyle’s event. Um, because Anthony was
thanking me for, you know, jumping off this cliff with him and, er, it was
really amazing to hear it, because you spend all this time just making
this thing happen and you’re not thinking about the kind of big feelings
behind it and what it means to you. You know, it was just thinking, you
know, is the ship
23:12:17:17 coming from Singapore going to sink and destroy all our books, you
know? Are we going to get the, you know, the prints up on time, that kind
of stuff, and sometimes you sort of forget about what it means and, um,
Anthony had been asking me for years to come and work with him, and I
just didn’t think that, you know, I was ready. I don’t know, I just didn’t… It
wasn’t right before.

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23:12:51:00 I mean we’ve been together 15 years now, and um, it was just never right.
So I think for him, you know, particularly at this point, when we have two
children, [LAUGH] saying I’m now ready to come and work with you, I
want to come and work with you, I want to make this happen, I think is
a massive kind of, you know, validation for him, because we’re putting
everything, our whole.
23:13:24:00 the whole energy of our family is behind him and his creativity and his
work. It’s not, you know, I’m going off and creating my thing, you go off
and create your thing, it’s all focused on kind of his talents.
23:13:44:20 CHATTER

It was so emotional, Foyle’s. I think a lot of it as, you know, the kind of
end of this ridiculous journey that we’d been on to produce two books
and have this big exhibition and run this crowd funding campaign and
then have another exhibition and all in the space of, you know, a few
months. Um, and it was just, I don’t know, it was really wonderful to have
this moment where you just
23:14:23:09 stopped and we realised what we had done and why we had done it, and
we weren’t crazy, and it was the right thing to do, and you know, we’d
done this together and, you know, it was really, really lovely, really lovely,
and I love that he can say those things to me and you know, sometimes
you forget that people feel this way about you, you know, that he feels this
way about me,
23:15:05:12 and, you know, it’s not about the little bickering arguments and it’s, you
know, and do we have the right number of boxes and all that kind of crap,
you know. It’s we’ve done something really magical together, you know,
we’ve done something really huge and crazy and, you know, ridiculous,
and we’ve made it work and, you know, we did it kind of, we did it
together.

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TIME-CODES DIALOGUE
[INAUDIBLE]

Um, it was really, I did cry because, you know, there was just so many
tense moments, stressful moments, arguing, you know. Just doing, just
getting the job done, um, you know, and Anthony is not as er, is not as
warm as I am, you know, he doesn’t give me that kind of… I mean I’m
always rushing around going, ‘I love you, you’re so amazing.’ But that’s
my, that’s my
23:16:42:05 personality, I do it to everybody. [LAUGH] But um, yes, when Anthony
says things like that he really, really, really means it, like it’s coming from
such a heartfelt place, it’s coming from his inner core, and it’s just, you
know, it’s overwhelming to hear. It’s not… He doesn’t, he doesn’t say
things like that all the time, he says it when he really, really, really means it
and um, it’s yes,
23:17:14:19 it’s lovely. It’s lovely to hear, really lovely, you know, to feel like you’re
special and you’ve done something special for somebody that you
love, and yes. Um, I say that he’s not emotional, he’s more emotional
than most English people. [LAUGH] But I am particularly emotional,
compared to me, maybe. But yes, it was really um, it was really lovely, it
was really touching. It’s
23:17:57:09 really validating, you know. I am like this kind of person who’s always
pushing and forcing and come on, and we’ve got to do this and we’ve
got to, you know, um, you know, and that, that can be really wearing and
tedious. So it was really nice to kind of get to the end and someone say
so, someone say it’s lovely about you. Does that answer the question?
Yes.

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TIME-CODES DIALOGUE
23:18:32:16 CUT

One of my favourite people in the world, my best friend, Cara, is a
journalist and a writer, and she works for Harvard University over in
Boston. And she’s amazing, she is so, so helpful to me in um, well gosh,
in so many aspects of my career. So she reads, you know, she reads a lot
of the stuff that I write, press releases and things, but for this particular
project she was unbelievable
23:19:08:16 with our crowd funding campaign. Sorry. I’ll do that again. Okay. Um,
in this particular project she was just incredible, um, helping us and
advising us with our crowd funding campaign, because she worked with
er veterans’ organisation in the States and helped them with their crowd
funding, and so she was able to really help me go through that process of
um, you know,
23:19:38:20 make, getting it noticed, um, beyond the few people that we knew who
might be interested in buying a book, um, and really making it just, you
know, taking it up a level so that we had some really good ideas and um,
she was reading it and she, she gave us some incredible feedback. So um,
I, you know, what, what I really, really tried to do with this project is to
reach out to people and
23:20:10:11 get their advice and their input, because there are a million people who
know, you know, way more than we do about every subject, and why
not utilise them? Why not give them to give you their essence of their
knowledge, and people were really happy to do that, and Cara is one of
my best friends. She’s such an incredible writer, and she really knows
how to tell a story that

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TIME-CODES DIALOGUE
23:20:37:18 people are going to respond and they’re going to engage with, because
that’s what people want to hear. They don’t want to just hear well, I’m
doing this and I’m doing this, and I’m doing this. They want to hear what
is the story behind it, why should I care, what’s, you know, what is it that
you’re doing? What is the essence of what you’re doing? Why is it special,
why is it
23:20:56:16 different, why is it unique? So she was really, really helpful getting our
crowd funding campaign into a kind of, you know, getting a kind of, sort
of formula around it, getting it kind of organised, getting um, she gave us
a ton of ideas, and yes, it was really, really helpful, really helpful.
Great.
[INAUDIBLE] Describe Tony.

Oh. Um.
Sorry, okay.
Anthony is a very creative, artistic person. He’s this really weird mix of
like super mellow California dude, walks very slowly, has a lot of time,
very super mellow, and then a little bit crazy. He is very on, you know,
he is half Mediterranean, he has very far away, intense, Mediterranean
personality, and then he’s really mellow Mr California again. Like it’s
really sometimes like

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TIME-CODES DIALOGUE
23:22:39:11 living with two different people. Um, I really like that about him. He
has a very kind of relaxed, thoughtful outlook on life, um, mixed with
tremendous, tremendous passion. Um, so. Yes.
Anything else? Kind, funny?

Oh. Oh, that. Um,… Anthony is very funny but we always argue about
who’s funnier, and I think I’m funnier. [LAUGH] Um, he’s a really, really
nice guy to be around. He has a really wonderful energy that I find very
calming. He’s a lot calmer than I am. I am a little bit screwy and all over
the shop sometimes, and I am very intense and you know, I have an idea
and, you know, five
23:23:55:06 minutes later I’ve, you know, changed my whole life to do this idea, um,
and he’s much more measured than I am. So I think in that way he really
is, he’s a very calming influence on me. He doesn’t, he doesn’t sort of,
you know, I go off onto these crazy whirlwind things, he just kind of goes
mm, okay, whatever, it’s just Di. Um, and I love that, I really love that, and
he’s, he’s
23:24:30:17 very smart. He’s a really nice person to be around, you know. I think…

What is Anthony like? He’s a really, really, really sweet guy, and he’s
incredibly [PHONE]

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TIME-CODES DIALOGUE
Yes, um, Anthony is… Okay. Um, Anthony is really lovely. He’s such a
calm, mellow, lovely, sweet, kind person. He’s really loving, he’s really
giving, um, but he is also crazy and he is extremely passionate about
many things including, you know, how I didn’t stack the dishwasher
in the correct way, which I don’t understand why would get really
passionate about, but anyway.
23:25:36:22 Um, and um, we have this mix of very mellow, loving, sweet relationship
and then very intense, um, a lot of passion, a lot of crazy, you know. You
know, there’s a lot of crazy in our relationship. Um, and I think he just
has these kind of two sides. He’s like super mellow, everything’s cool, hey
man, it’s great. And then he’s like oh my God, and he’s nuts, he’s totally
nuts.
That was good. Last question.
What do you love about Tony’s photography?

I think what I love most about Tony’s photography is that he… Sorry.
[COUGH] I’ve got to call him Anthony, haven’t I?
No, you call him Tony.

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TIME-CODES DIALOGUE
What I most, what I most love about Anthony’s photography is that it
really makes me realise how much I need to stop and pay attention to
the world around me. He notices things that I think, you know, most of
the world just don’t, and when I think you really, really, really look at the
world, and you really pay attention to what’s around you and you really
stop and you notice
23:27:14:02 what’s around you, I think it enriches your life in such an incredible way,
because we’re so busy, we’re so you know, in our heads and rushing and
doing this, that and the other and, you know, being, you know, important
in our own little lives, but really what you have, you know… At the end of
the day, what do you have? You have the family, you have your friends,
you
23:27:41:21 have that love and connection with people, but you also have this
incredible world and it’s really easy to forget how beautiful the sunset is,
or how beautiful it is for light to hit a tree in the early morning, or how
beautiful it is that, you know, this brick is this colour, and before I met
Anthony I, I never noticed things like that. I never noticed the small, little
elements of beauty that are
23:28:16:05 everywhere, and by being with him and by looking at his work, and
by being around somebody who notices everything, I have started
noticing this incredible beauty myself, and it’s just wonderful. I mean
why wouldn’t you want to go out in the morning and see something that
makes you heart, you know, lift and feel inspired, and why wouldn’t you
want to notice, you know,
23:28:57:07 some grain on the floor and how wonderful it makes the concrete. And
Anthony has brought that into my life, and I feel so much more pleasure
in my day to day life, living in this world, and seeing and noticing. So, for
me it’s, you know, it’s changed how I experience the world. It’s changed
how I see things, and that is, you know, an unbelievable gift.

Diana Master IV

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CITIES AT DAWN

DIANA MASTER INTERVIEW

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:00:06:21 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:03:24:20 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:07:53:10 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:10:30:13 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:12:25:01 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:12:30:14 45 Di Master IV Roll 2

22:12:30:14 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:15:01:14 CREW DIRECTION

22:15:04:10 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:18:54:20 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:22:47:15 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:25:16:07 Diana Epes

22:25:48:13 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:28:34:20 45 Di Master IV Roll 3

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:31:22:07 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:37:03:22 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:41:31:09 Diana Epes

22:41:37:20 Diana Epes

22:41:38:06 45 Di Master IV Roll 4

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:43:27:00 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:46:22:05 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:47:48:17 Diana Epes

22:48:49:19 CREW DIRECTION

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:50:19:01 CREW DIRECTION

22:50:37:16 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:52:19:17 Diana Epes

22:52:27:14 45 Di Master IV Roll 5

22:52:27:24 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:53:41:23 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

22:57:00:21 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com

23:00:11:20 Diana Epes

Inside The Edit — The Creative Editing Course insidetheedit.com