As I've said many times, all of the figures are an estimate; none are absolutely

right or wrong. The typical estimate for deaths from Spanish flu is 20-50
million worldwide. This is in line with what Britannica says.[1] I've always
thought that the estimate of 100 million is on the high side, but it is okay to
include it as long as it is reliably sourced. But let's not have a debate that
goes along the lines of "source a is better than source b".--♦IANMACM♦  (talk to
me)
 06:49, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

 At a time when the world's population was around two billion people, a
mortality rate of 1% works out at 20 million deaths. 100 million deaths would
be a mortality rate of 5%, which is considerably higher than suggested by
data about the mortality rate in developed countries. There is a good article
about the competing claims here.--♦IANMACM♦  (talk to me) 10:03, 30 September
2020 (UTC)
We should go with what the vast majority of sources say, though the 17 million
deaths estimate is definitely worth mentioning. For the infobox, I think that the
best option for us at this point would be to either include a single range (17–100
million) or two separate ranges (17 million & 50–100 million) for the death toll. If
we go with the second option, I would specify that the 17 million figure is a 2018
estimate by the American Journal of Epidemiology while the 50–100 million
figure is the most widely-accepted estimate. LightandDark2000 🌀 (talk) 20:03,
2 October 2020 (UTC)

Rename Spanish Flu back to 1918-1920 H1N1 Flu to

prevent racism for the sake of Spanish speaking
people and Hispanics[edit]
If we're naming 1918-20 H1N1 flu the Spanish Flu because it was first reported
in Spain when it came from Kansas, America, then we should rename Covid-19
flu China-flu/Wuhan Virus because it was first reported in Wuhan, China.
Hypocrite. Naming both viruses after a region/nation is super bigotted and racist
and a horrible violation of WHO"s medical law. — Preceding unsigned comment added
by 69.244.83.111 (talk) 20:04, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

See Talk:Spanish_flu/Archive_3#Requested_move_15_March_2020. TBH I'm

not greatly fond of the term Spanish flu, but Wikipedia has to take on
board WP:COMMONNAME. BBC News still uses it.[2] The theory that it came
from Kansas is not regarded as certain by academics. The term Spanish flu
has stuck because it was first widely reported there at a time when countries
involved in WW1 were censoring news reports.--♦IANMACM♦  (talk to me) 22:28, 18
October 2020 (UTC)
Most people refer to it as Spanish flu, it is not "racist" and we don't need to
rename everything retrospectively just because of political
correctness. Oppashi Talk 12:42, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Totally agree with User:Oppashi. The historical name has been used for
DECADES and should stay that way. And some anonymous Wikipedia
INDIVIDUAL renaming it as "1918-1920 H1N1 Flu" is NOT his prerogative;
naming important science-related events is done by the relevant scientific or
international body, and not by a single person.Titus III (talk) 03:44, 8
November 2020 (UTC)
If we’re following your logic, Then we should name COVID-19 to China flu
like Trump did — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.83.111 (talk) 13:29, 2
November 2020 (UTC)

Agree with the above IP. If Zika Virus, Ebola, Hendra virus, MERS, Swine

flu, et al get to keep their names, even though WHO and other's have
officially stated they are either racist or inaccurate, then Wuhan Flu or
China Flu should stay. Period. Else, it's political correctness and virtue
signaling. Sad. 179.53.41.19 (talk) 05:19, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced - pathogenic viruses become less

lethal with time[edit]
"Such evolution of influenza is a common occurrence: there is a tendency
for pathogenic viruses to become less lethal with time, as the hosts of
more dangerous strains tend to die out."
This claim is unsourced (it is listed with source, but that source does not
appear to speak on this point).
Although this is commonly believed, the best source I can find is a
virologist who says "I believe that...", i.e. it is not a researched claim.
It's speculative and should be marked as such or - better yet - deleted.
Not really speculative,
AFAIK: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/071201_adenovirus "Th
e idea is that there may be an evolutionary trade-off between virulence and
transmission. [...] This virus does a lot of damage to the host — in other
words, is highly virulent. From the virus's perspective, this would, at first,
seem like a good thing; extra resources mean extra offspring, which generally
means high evolutionary fitness. However, if the viral reproduction completely
incapacitates the host, the whole strategy could backfire: the illness might
prevent the host from going out and coming into contact with new hosts that
the virus could jump to. A victim of its own success, the viral lineage could go
extinct and become an evolutionary dead end. This level of virulence is clearly
not a good thing from the virus's perspective. Natural selection balances this
trade-off, selecting for pathogens virulent enough to produce many offspring
(that are likely to be able to infect a new host if the opportunity arises) but not
so virulent that they prevent the current host from presenting them with
opportunities for transmission. Where this balance is struck depends, in part,
on the virus's mode of transmission. [...]" — Preceding unsigned comment added
by Extremophile (talk • contribs) 14:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Is Spanish flu virus no more aggressive than

ordinary flu?[edit]
"Scientists offer several possible explanations for the high mortality
rate of the 1918 influenza pandemic. Some analyses have shown the
virus to be particularly deadly because it triggers a cytokine storm,
which ravages the stronger immune system of young adults.[7] In
contrast, a 2007 analysis of medical journals from the period of the
pandemic found that the viral infection was no more aggressive than
previous influenza strains.[8][9] Instead, malnourishment, overcrowded
medical camps and hospitals, and poor hygiene, all exacerbated by
the recent war, promoted bacterial superinfection. This superinfection
killed most of the victims, typically after a somewhat prolonged death
bed.[10][11]"
Concerning this sentence and the following two sentences: "In
contrast, a 2007 analysis of medical journals from the period of the
pandemic found that the viral infection was no more aggressive than
previous influenza strains.[8][9]"
I wonder if this is true. Is there a source for the 2007 analysis? Some
who died around the world were apparently not directly affected by
these wartime hardships, and were in good health before being
precipitously felled by this flu. Look at this article, which gives an
example of women playing cards and dying overnight:

 https://virus.stanford.edu/uda
I looked briefly at the two references given [8][9], which are medical
journal articles from 1919 describing the pathology of the Spanish flu,
but did not immediately see them declare that this was no more
virulent than ordinary flu. On the contrary, accounts I have read
describe a grim and rapid deterioration that does not sound like the
ordinary flu.

 https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic
  https://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-
resurgence
These last two sources mention a mutated virus that was especially
deadly to victims of the second wave of the pandemic, in the fall of
2018. I am not a pathologist, so I may have missed something in the
medical journal articles – it would be nice to have an expert comment
on them in this discussion blog.
It's possible that the mere fact of the Spanish flu being more
contagious than the ordinary flu (if that is true) combined with wartime
hardships led to an overwhelming of the healthcare system and more
death from associated causes. I wonder if there are previous and later
accounts of death by ordinary flu among susceptible populations, and
with possible deficiencies in healthcare provision, that match those
described for Spanish flu.
I just found this article saying a 2008 study of Spanish flu tissue
samples show that a majority died of bacterial infections occurring
after infection by the flu virus.

 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/198/7/962/2192118
But this does not mean that the virus was less virulent. That's like
saying it was really lack of oxygen (hypoxia) that killed the victim of a
gunshot wound, not the bullet. Deardavid7 (talk) 08:16, 15 November
2020 (UTC)

Economic Effects of the 1918 Influenza

Pandemic[edit]
 Garrett, Thomas A. (2007-12-12). "Economic Effects of the 1918
Influenza Pandemic"  (PDF). Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
Retrieved November 23, 2020.
24.7.104.84 (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Do we...[edit]
add details on the COVID-19 pandemic in the Spanish
flu#Comparison with other pandemics header? Marc Raphael
Felix (talk) 10:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes, when we have the numbers. In about ten years from now, for a guess?
--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
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