Kazuyo Sejima
Trudim se definirati
oblik programa
I Try to Define the Shape
of the Programme
razgovarali
interviewed by 
Maroje Mrduljaš Ana Dana Beroš Alan Kostrenčić
¶ U razvoju suvremene japanske arhitekture Kazuyo Sejima zau-
zima jedno od središnjih mjesta. Dok je Toyo Ito, kod kojeg je
Sejima radila, odigrao ključnu ulogu u zaokretu prema istraži-
vanju lakoće i transparentnosti, Sejima čini daljnji iskorak prema
arhitekturi elementarnih, no poetskih formi koje udomljuju
domišljate i originalne interpretacije programa. Sejima samo-
stalno ili u suradnji s R. Nishizawom pomiče granice djelovanja
koje obilježavaju redukcija arhitektonskog jezika i gotovo dija-
gramatski koncepti. Svaki novi projekt Sejime pokazuje njenu
sposobnost svođenja na vizualno ‘gotovo ništa’ koje formira
doživljajno bogate i poticajne prostore. Sejima prekoračuje kon-
vencionalno poimanje jednostavnosti jer svaki njen projekt  pro-
izlazi iz istovremeno racionalnog i senzualnog razumijevanja
socijalnih, urbanih, tehnoloških  i drugih parametara što rezul-
tira u naglašeno autorskoj arhitekturi.
12 oris, broj 82, godina 2013
Kazuyo Sejima
fotografije photographs by Iwan Baan (ib)
Dean Kaufman (dk)
Kazuyo Sejima & Associates (ksa)
Kikutake Architects (ka)
portreti portraits Danilo Balaban
¶ In the development of contemporary Japanese architecture
Kazuyo Sejima takes one of the central places. While Toyo Ito,
with whom Sejima worked, played a key role in the move towards
the research of ease and transparency, she took a step further
towards an architecture of elementary, yet poetic forms that
host inventive and original interpretations of the programme.
Independently or in collaboration with R. Nishizawa, Sejima
pushes the boundaries of her work marked by the reduction
of architectural language and almost diagrammatic concepts.
Each project of Sejima’s shows her ability to reduce to the visual
‘almost nothing’ which forms stimulative spaces, rich in experi-
ence. Sejima oversteps the conventional understanding of sim-
plicity, each of her projects stems from the simultaneous rational
and sensual understanding of social, urban and technological
parameters resulting in a particularly authorial architecture.
oris, number 82, year 2013
oris — Pronašao sam intervju prema kojem Vaš srednjoškol-
ski nastavnik prepoznaje da volite glazbu i film, ali i matema-
tiku, i savjetuje Vam da upišete studij arhitekture. Ne znam
koliko je to točno. Kako vidite odnos arhitekture i drugih
umjetnosti? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Prije je bilo posve druk-
čije. U Japanu svi biraju studij na kraju srednje škole, u dobi
od sedamnaest ili osamnaest godina. Odrasla sam u malom
gradu i u to vrijeme nismo imali ni internet, čak ni časopise.
Arhitektura mi je bila strana. Nisam mogla zamisliti kakva je to
profesija. Sjećam se da sam kao dijete u časopisu svoje majke
vidjela jednu vrlo posebnu kuću. Bio je to časopis za žene, ne o
arhitekturi, već o uređenju kuće, i tu su kuću pokazali na dvije
ili tri stranice. Imala sam možda deset ili jedanaest godina i
ona je na mene ostavila snažan dojam. To je moja jedina veza
s arhitekturom iz djetinjstva. S osamnaest godina sam morala
kazuyo sejima, Intervju
oris —  I found in an interview that your high school teacher
told you that you liked music and film but also mathematics
and advised you to study architecture. I don’t know if this is
totally accurate, but how do you see the relationship between
architecture and other arts? ¶ kazuyo sejima — It was kind
of the opposite. In Japan everyone selects their course at the
end of high school at the age of around 17 or 18. At that time
I was growing up in a small city and we didn’t have Internet
then or even magazines. So architecture was very distant for
me, I couldn’t imagine what type of profession architectural
work was. But I remember when I was a child I saw a very
special house in my mother’s magazine. It was a magazine for
women, not on architecture but more on house decoration
and the magazine showed that house on two or three pages.
Maybe I was 10 or 11 and it was very shocking. That was my
kazuyo sejima, Interview 13

odlučiti. Voljela sam matematiku, razmišljala i o medicini, ali je
studij medicine vrlo težak. Otišla sam na tehnički univerzitet
i sve mi je bilo nepoznato, ali sam onda pronašla arhitekturu
i mislim da sam dobro odabrala. Malo sam se bojala, ali mi je
arhitektura bila vrlo zanimljiva. Zatim sam se sjetila one kuće
iz djetinjstva u majčinom časopisu i odlučila pokušati. Isto-
vremeno sam mislila da nisam dobra u umjetnosti – mislim
na crtanje i slikanje, ali sam ipak odlučila pokušati. Da sam
dobro poznavala glazbu i film, možda bih se i lakše u odlučila
za studij arhitekture. U srednjoj školi nisam bila dobra u dizajnu
i crtanju, ali sam bila dobra na studiju arhitekture.
oris — Kuća o kojoj govorite je Sky House, a projektirao ju
je Kiyonori Kikutake, jedan od najboljih japanskih poslijerat-
nih modernih arhitekata. Nekako ste intuitivno prepoznali
njezine kvalitete. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Nisam razumjela, ali
me se zaista dojmila, čak i u časopisu. Prije tri godine sam je
konačno posjetila i još je dobro održavaju.
14 oris, broj 82, godina 2013
only connection to architecture from my childhood. When
I was 18 I had to decide something. I liked mathematics. I
also checked medicine, but to go and study medicine is very
difficult. So, I went to technical university and checked the
programme and everything seemed very remote and then I
found architecture. I thought this is it. I was a little afraid,
but even for a high school child architecture seemed inter-
esting. Then I remembered that as a child I was interested in
that house from my mother’s magazine, so I thought maybe
I’d try. At the same time I thought I was not good at art –
meaning drawing and painting, but at the end I decided to
try. If I was good at music or film maybe it would be easier
to go on an architectural course. Actually I was not good at
design or painting in high school but I went to architecture.
I enjoyed university.
oris — The house you are referring to is the Sky House
designed by Kiyonori Kikutake, one of the highlights of
oris, number 82, year 2013
oris — Je li Kikutake, koji je umro krajem 2011., još živio u
Sky House kad ste je posjetili? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Pokraj
te kuće je sagradio još jednu i možda živio u njoj. Njegov je
sin živio u Sky House.
oris — Činjenica da je nova generacija u kući pokazuje
koliko je živ taj koncept, kako kuća odolijeva vremenu i
promjenama životnih stilova, vjerojatno zbog fleksibilnosti
tlocrta. Također vas zanimaju slične kvalitete stanovanja, ali
i drugih programa, kvalitete kuće koja se uspješno prilago-
đava promjenama, a možda i novim korisnicima? ¶ kazuyo
sejima — Mislim da je fleksibilnost neka vrsta dodatka i
možda možemo naći i neku drugu vrstu otvorenosti.
oris — Kad kažem fleksibilnost, ne referiram se nužno na
fizičku promjenjivost prostora, već na otvorene i višestruke
mogućnosti nastanjivanja nekog prostora. Fleksibilnost ne
znači samo pomična vrata ili elemente, već i artikulaciju pro-
stora i kako se različiti prostori odnose na cjelinu. ¶ kazuyo
kazuyo sejima, Intervju
Japanese post-war modern architecture. Somehow you intui-
tively recognized the qualities in it. ¶ kazuyo sejima — I
couldn’t understand it but it made a really big impression, even
in the magazine. Three years ago I was finally able to visit it
and it is still very nicely maintained.
oris — Was Kikutake, who passed away at the end of 2011,
still living in the Sky House when you visited it? ¶ kazuyo
sejima — Yes. He made another building next to the house
and maybe he was living in that. His son lived in the Sky House.
oris — The fact that the house is occupied by a new genera-
tion shows how vital its concept is, how this house is capable
of enduring time and changes in lifestyle, probably because
of the flexibility of the plan. You are also interested in similar
qualities in housing, but also in other programmes, the quality
of a building being capable of adapting itself to change and
maybe even new users? ¶ kazuyo sejima — I think flexibility
is some kind of attachment and maybe we can find another
type of openness.
oris —  When I speak about flexibility I am not necessarily
referring to the physical changeability of a space but open
and multiple possibilities of inhabiting the space. Flexibility is
not only about sliding doors or movable elements, but about
the articulation of a space and how to relate different spaces
to the whole. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Japanese public museums Kiyonori Kikutake,
demand that we use moveable walls because they are public Sky House, Tokio,
Japan, 1958.
institutions and should be flexible. We were asked the same
when we designed the Kanazawa museum but at that time the
Kiyonori Kikutake,
museum’s curator, Ms Yuko Hasegawa, really didn’t like that Sky House, Tokyo,
system. She didn’t wish to use sliding walls in the gallery and Japan, 1958 (ka)
kazuyo sejima, Interview 15

sanaa, Muzej sejima — Japanski javni muzeji traže od nas da koristimo
suvremene umjetnosti
pomične zidove jer su javne institucije i moraju biti fleksibilni.
21. stoljeća Kanazawa,
Kanazawa, Japan, Tražili su nas isto kad smo projektirali muzej Kanazawa, ali
1999. – 2004. u to vrijeme kustosici muzeja, gospođi Yuko Hasegawi, to
se nije svidjelo. Željela je da u galeriji ne koristimo pomične
sanaa, 21st
Century Museum
zidove i umjesto toga predložila da se osmisle prostori razli-
of Contemporary čitih proporcija i oblika, što me veselilo. Uvijek se brinem i
Art Kanazawa, istražujem temu galerije bez stalnih postava i nisam prona-
Kanazawa, Japan,
1999 – 2004
lazila idealno rješenje, idealnu strategiju. Ako ne mogu naći
strategiju, onda je u smislu fleksibilnosti najbolji tip galerije
(ib) iz 18. stoljeća. Galerije su samo osnova za umjetnost. Nakon
završetka sam shvatila da čak i ako prostor galerije ne funk-
cionira savršeno, umjetnici je mogu koristiti na razne načine.
Mislim da je vrsta galerije kao što je muzej Kanazawa fleksi-
bilna, možda otvorena. Za mene je to proces, ne znam kako
to postići, ali se trudim definirati oblik programa. Istovremeno
me zanima ostavljanje zgrade nedovršenom, ostavljanje pro-
stora otvorenosti za budući razvoj, za ono što poslije osnuju
korisnici ili drugi. Mislim da je to vrlo teško. Moji koncepti su
možda previše demokratični. Ne želim demokratičnost, ako je
to prava riječ. Mislim da to nije uvijek moguće, ali sam sretna
16 oris, broj 82, godina 2013
sanaa, Muzej
suvremene umjetnosti
21. stoljeća Kanazawa,
Kanazawa, Japan,
1999. – 2004., situacija
sanaa, 21st
Century Museum of
Contemporary Art
Kanazawa, Kanazawa,
Japan, 1999 – 2004,
site plan
(ib)
instead proposed making spaces of different proportions and (ib)
shapes which made me very happy. At the same time, I always
worry about being prepared for a gallery without a permanent
collection and I couldn’t find the ideal solution, the strategy. If
I couldn’t find the strategy, then the 18th-century type of gal-
lery is good enough in terms of flexibility. Also, a gallery should
only be the base for the art. After the completion I realised
that even if a gallery space doesn’t work perfectly, an artist
can use galleries in different ways. I think this kind of gallery
has some flexibility, maybe openness. For me it is the process,
I don’t know how to achieve it, but I try to define the shape of
the programme. At the same time I’m interested in kind of not
completing the building, to leave space for some openness for
future development, for what is found afterwards by users or
others. I think this is very difficult. My concept may seem to be kad se prostor koristi na različite načine. Na primjer, ako imam or communicative used that space not as a school but in a sanaa, Muzej suvremene
umjetnosti 21. stoljeća,
too democratic. I don’t want it to be too democratic, if that’s priliku projektirati školu, osmislit ću skladnu školu za djecu, ali different way. It’s very contradictory.
Kanazawa, Japan,
correct word. I don’t think this is always possible but I am ću istovremeno biti sretna ako neka talentirana, zanimljiva i oris — In your opinion architecture is not necessarily fixed 1999. – 2004.
very happy when space is used in different ways. For example, komunikativna osoba koristi taj prostor ne kao školu, nego na in terms of the relationship between use and space, but space
sanaa, 21st Century
if I had a chance to design a school I’d like to do my best to druge načine. To su vrlo kontradiktorne zamisli. can house different types of events. In Kanagawa this type
Museum of Contemporary
design a very nice school for the children but at the same time oris — Po vašem mišljenju arhitektura nije nužno fiksirana u of strategy required a lengthy design process, because you Art, Kanazawa, Japan,
I would be very happy if someone very talented, interesting smislu odnosa između upotrebe i prostora, ali prostor može devised several types of gallery and then decided how many 1999 – 2004
oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 17
 sanaa, Stakleni sanaa, Stakleni
paviljon u Muzeju paviljon u Muzeju
umjetnosti Toledo, umjetnosti
Toledo, Ohio, sad, Toledo, Toledo,
2001. – 2006., Ohio, sad,
plan geometrije 2001. – 2006.
staklenih panela
sanaa, Glass
sanaa, Glass Pavilion Pavilion at the
at the Toledo Museum Toledo Museum
of Art, Toledo, Ohio, of Art, Toledo,
usa, 2001 – 2006, Ohio, usa,
glass panel 2001 – 2006
geomety plan
(ib)

udomiti razne vrste događaja. U slučaju Kanazawe taj je tip
strategije zahtijevao dugotrajan proces jer ste osmislili više
tipova galerijskih prostora i onda odlučili koliko tipova pro-
stora je dovoljno kako bi se postigla otvorenost i raznolikost.
¶ kazuyo sejima — Da, to je vrlo teško i ponekad mi zamisao
ne dolazi lako. Ne nalazim je. Nije nužno savršeno rješenje, ali
je najbolje do kojeg sam došla.
oris — Inače bi se na nekom projektu moglo raditi zau­
vijek. Vaša se projektantska metodologija zasniva na slijedu
prilagodbi odnosa oblika i programa koji međusobno utječu
jedan na drugi, u potrazi za prikladnim rješenjem. Taj je proces
iterativan i cilj mu nije idealan ili savršen projekt. ¶ kazuyo
sejima — Naš proces projektiranja se razvija korak po korak,
(ib)
Nastojimo razmišljati
types of spaces was enough in order to achieve openness and
diversity. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Yes, this is very difficult and o aktivnostima u
sometimes I couldn’t find it. It’s not necessarily the perfect interijeru, prostoru,
solution, but it is the best one we have arrived at.
oris — Otherwise a project could be researched endlessly. pa i zvuku
Your design methodology is based on sequences of adjust-
ments going back and forth between the form and the pro-
gramme in search for an appropriate solution. It’s an itera- We are trying to think
tive process which doesn’t aim at the ideal or perfect design.
¶ kazuyo kazuyo sejima — Our design process is to go about the interior
step by step, especially in the earlier stages, but our form is activities, the space and
somewhat simple. Recently we used curves. In our previous
work we couldn’t find a clear reason for curved forms. Of also the sound

18 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 19
 posebno u ranim fazama, ali oblici koje koristimo su nekako course, design is always about the shape but also about try- sanaa, Edukacijski centar Rolex na
epfl (École Polytechnique Fédérale
jednostavni. Odnedavno koristimo krivulje. U prethodnim ing to think about the interior activities, the space and also 9
11 de Lausanne), Lausanne, Švicarska,
radovima nismo pronalazili jasne razloge za zakrivljene oblike. the sound. Still I cannot say there’s only one solution, maybe 2005. – 2010., tlocrt ulaznog nivoa
Naravno, projekt je uvijek o obliku, ali također nastojimo raz- there are more solutions. 8
sanaa, Rolex Learning Centre at epfl
mišljati o aktivnostima u interijeru, prostoru, pa i zvuku. Još ne oris — You used basic forms in the Kanazawa museum
6 (École Polytechnique Fédérale de
mogu reći da postoji samo jedno rješenje, možda ih ima više. – circles and squares – but you gradually started experi- Lausanne), Lausanne, Switzerland,
oris — U muzeju Kanazawa ste koristili osnovne forme – menting with freer forms. How did that happen? ¶ kazuyo 6
2005 – 2010, entrance level floor plan
krug i pravokutnik. Postupno ste počeli više eksperimenti- sejima — In the beginning we worked with simple forms but
rati sa slobodnim oblicima. Kako se to dogodilo? ¶ kazuyo after Kanazawa I realised the programme can became very 5
sejima — Na početku smo radili s jednostavnim oblicima, no abstract. Then we thought the concept was not good. The 1 Glavni ulaz
2 Cafe
4
nakon Kanazawe sam shvatila da program može postati vrlo dining room is 20 square metres, but what is the dining room 3 Prostor za jelo
4 Banka
apstraktan. Pomislili smo da takav koncept i nije tako dobar. and what did we try to find? It is not abstract. Nishizawa and 5 Knjižara
9 6 Uredi
Blagovaonica je definirana s 20 kvadratnih metara, ali pitanje I found some new geometry, geography of geometry. People 7 Višenamjenska dvorana
1 8 Knjižnica
je što je blagovaonica i što smo željeli postići. To nije apstrak- easily say it is very emotional but we don’t think it is emotional 9 Prostori za rad
Kazuyo Sejima tno pitanje. Nishizawa i ja smo otkrili neke nove geometrije, or childish. We found that contemporary society can introduce 10 Kolekcija klasičnih knjiga
11 Kolekcija za istraživanje
& Associates,
Višenamjenska dvorana geografije geometrije. Ljudi olako kažu da je u našem radu a new geography that just fits our body or feeling. 2
12 Restoran

Onishi, Gunma, Japan, sve emocionalno, ali mi ne mislimo da je emocionalno ili dje- oris — In the design of the Toledo museum you introduced
10 1 Main entrance
2003. – 2005. tinjasto. Otkrili smo da suvremeno društvo može uvesti novu curved angles in the volumes in order to adjust the pro- 2 Cafe
3 Food court
Kazuyo Sejima geografiju koja odgovara našem tijelu ili osjećaju. gramme to the spatial configuration. It was not only a for- 4 Bank
5 Bookshop
& Associates, oris — U projekt muzeja u Toledu uveli ste zakrivljene mal decision. ¶ kazuyo sejima — The Toledo corner started 6 Offices
7
Multipurpose Facility in kutove volumena kako biste program prilagodili prostornoj from the grid. At some point I decided to take away the rec- 7 Multipurpose hall
8 Library
Onishi, Gunma, Japan,
2003 – 2005 konfiguraciji. To nije bila samo formalna odluka. ¶ kazuyo tangular form. Such was the case in Onishi Hall in Gunma. 3 9 Work area
10 Antique book collection
(ib) sejima — Artikulacija kutova u Toledu počela je s tlocrtnom oris — I wanted to emphasize the development from the grid 12 11 Research collection
(ib)
12 Restaurant

mrežom. U jednom sam trenutku odlučila ukloniti pravokutan

oblik. Tako je bilo i u dvorani Onishi u Gunmi.
oris — Upravo sam i htio naglasiti razvoj iz mreže u slobodnu
formu. Kontrola zakrivljene geometrije je formalno zahtjevna.
Ne eksperimentirate sa zakrivljenim oblicima samo u tlocrtu,
već ste počeli istraživati i zakrivljenje presjeka, što je još jedna
faza vašeg istraživanja. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Nakon muzeja u
Kanazawi projektirala sam Novi muzej suvremene umjetnosti
u New Yorku na maloj parceli, pa smo projekt razvijali iznutra
prema gradu i okolišu. Nismo mogli zgradu postaviti u odnos
s okolinom u horizontali. U Kanazawi ljudi prilaze građevini iz
(ib)

to free form. Control of curved geometry is formally demand- sanaa, Edukacijski

centar Rolex na epfl,
ing. You didn’t experiment with curved forms only in the plan, Lausanne, Švicarska,
but you also started to investigate curving in the section which 2005. – 2010.
is another stage in your research. ¶ kazuyo sejima — After
sanaa, Rolex Learning
the museum in Kanazawa I designed the New Museum of Con- Centre at epfl, Lausanne,
temporary Art in New York which is a small property and then Switzerland, 2005 – 2010

20 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 21
 prostora. U drugim situacijama možemo čvršće dijeliti prostor, activities. The big space is divided into hills but at the same
tako da to znači da se susjedna soba doima poput slike. time even the big courtyard divides the building into several
oris — Mislim da ste pokušali ostvariti prostor koji se može spaces. For me it is also a small city of different spaces. In other Kazuyo Sejima &
Associates, Projekt
percipirati kao cjelina, ali je zadržana neka vrsta podjele. situations we can have the spaces divided, so that means the umjetničkih kuća
¶ kazuyo sejima — Svako područje ima različit prostor i next room appears like a kind of a painting. Inujima, Otok Inujima,
različit karakter i svi su povezani tako da ljudi osjećaju cjelinu, oris — I think you tried to achieve a space which can be unutarnje more Seto,
Japan, 2009. – 2010.
ali istovremeno se kreću od prostora do prostora u kojima perceived as a unity but still maintaining some sort of divi-
susreću različite atmosfere koje povezuju različite funkcio- sion. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Every area has a different space Kazuyo Sejima &
nalne aktivnosti. or a different character and they are connected so people can Associates, Inujima Art
oris — Inzistirate na jasnoći i jednostavnosti konstrukcije. Kad feel unity, but at the same time if they move from space to Houses Project, inujima
Island, Seto Inland Sea,
sam posjetio Inujimu, usporedio sam kako ste koristili drvenu space they encounter different atmospheres which connect Japam, 2009 – 2010
konstrukciju, čeličnu, pa čak i pleksiglas u seriji malih paviljona. the different activities, functional activities. (ib)
Na primjer, pretpostavljam da su zidovi od pleksiglasa u pavi-
ljonu u Inujimi u tlocrtu zakrivljeni jer tako nose veće optere-
ćenje? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Da. Prvo sam projektirala samo
četiri zakrivljenja, ali u tom bi slučaju paneli trebali biti debeli 8
centimetara kako bi nosili krov. To je bilo skupo, a istovremeno
su putovi na otoku vrlo uski, samo za ljude. Na otoku Inujimi
su dimenzije materijala bile vrlo važne jer s mora pristižu samo
mali brodovi. To je vrlo mali otok. U Naoshimi je drugačije, tamo
stižu veliki brodovi. Prefabricirali smo mnogo elemenata za tra-
jektnu luku u Naoshimi, pa ih je veliki brod dovezao izravno na
lokaciju. Na Inujimi je veličina građevnih elemenata određena
brodom, kao i veličinom ulice, a i dizalice koja je bila vrlo mala.
Za paviljon od pleksiglasa inženjer je predložio da koristimo više
elemenata od 4 cm i ja sam se složila. Za mene je suradnja sa
statičarima i konstrukcijskim inženjerima vrlo važna.
oris — Paviljoni na Inujimi se na prvi pogleda doimaju pro-
jektirani za umjetničke radove koji su u njima izloženi, ali to
nije tako, nego upravo suprotno. ¶ kazuyo sejima — To
su privremene galerije. Kustosica Yuko Hasegawa bira

Kazuyo Sejima & svih smjerova, dok je u New Yorku kretanje također fleksibilno
Associates, Projekt
oko središta, ali u interijeru.
umjetničkih kuća
Inujima, Otok Inujima, oris — U Rolexovom edukacijskom centru prva je odluka
unutarnje more Seto, bila početi eksperimentirati sa zakrivljenim presjekom kako
Japan, 2009. – 2010.
bi se ostvarila pristupačnost i protočnost unutar kompleksa
Kazuyo Sejima & te ostvarila veza prema ulazima. No te odluke radikalno su
Associates, Inujima Art utjecale na konfiguraciju interijera koji je postao poput topo-
Houses Project, Inujima
grafije. Jedna odluka vodi drugoj. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Da,
Island, Seto Inland Sea,
Japam, 2009 – 2010 ali smo isto tako od početka pokušali ostvariti prostor koji
se postupno otkriva, istraživali smo kako podijeliti programe,
(ksa) funkcije. To je pokušaj ostvarivanja prostora lutanja, ali isto
tako integriranja različitih aktivnosti. Veliki je prostor podi-
jeljen na brežuljke, ali istovremeno i veliko dvorište dijeli
zgradu na nekoliko prostora. Za mene je to mali grad različitih
oris — You insist on clarity and simplicity of the structural Kazuyo Sejima &
Associates, Projekt
we continued from the inside space to the city and surround- system. When I visited Inujima I could compare how you used
umjetničkih kuća
ings. We couldn’t relate the building to the surroundings in a a timber structure, steel structure and even plexiglass in a Inujima, Otok Inujima,
horizontal way. In Kanazawa people can approach from eve- series of small pavilions. For example, I guess the plexiglass unutarnje more Seto,
Japan, 2009. – 2010.
rywhere around the building while the circulation in the New walls in the Inujima pavilion are curved because they can carry
Museum is also flexible around the centre, but in the interior. more weight? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Yes. I first designed just Kazuyo Sejima &
oris — In the Rolex Learning Centre, the first decision to four of them but in that case it would need a thickness of 8 Associates, Inujima Art
Houses Project, inujima
start to experiment with the curved section was the idea cm to support the building. It was expensive and also at the
Island, Seto Inland Sea,
of accessibility and movement through the complex and same time the paths on the island are very narrow, they are Japam, 2009 – 2010
the position of the entrance. But these decisions radically only for people. The size of the material was very important
(ib)
affected the landscape-like interior configuration. One deci- on Inujima island because only small ships arrive from the sea
sion leads to another. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Yes, but also because it is a very tiny island. Big ships come to Naoshima
from the beginning we tried to make wandering space, how so we prefabricated lots of elements for the Naoshima ferry
to divide the programmes, the function. It is an attempt to terminal in the factory and a big ship brought them directly to
make wandering space, but also how to integrate different the site. Only small ships come to Inujima so the size is defined

22 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 23
 umjetnička djela. Samo je prvu izložbu odredio gospodin
Soichiro Fukutake, predsjednik Odbora Fondacije Fukutake.
Ondje se događa i Setouchi umjetnički trijenale u proljeće,
najljepše godišnje doba na otoku. Druga izložba je 2013. i za
nju je pripremljena druga faza. To je mali otok i provjeravamo
što se događa. Voljeli bismo postupno promijeniti otoke tije-
kom sljedećih deset godina. Treća faza je vrlo mala, pa ne
smijem raditi arhitekturu, samo postaviti nekoliko kamenova,
ali za deset godina nešto će se promijeniti, a intervencije će
koristiti mi ili neki umjetnici, i to ne nužno kao galeriju. Polako
ćemo razvijati otok.
oris — Mislim da je to jedini mogući način pristupa Inujimi
jer je to tako mali otok s tradicijom, na kojemu živi pedesetak
ljudi. Zapravo, vidio sam samo nekoliko. Bili su vrlo ljubazni i
susretljivi i očito su prihvaćali umjetničke paviljone i posjeti-
telje, ali još žive svoj tradicionalan miran život. Inujimu se ne
posjećuje samo zbog umjetnosti, već i zbog iskustvo pogleda
u život udaljenog japanskog otoka. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Čini
mi se da se mještani doista brinu za otok. Kad sam bila ondje
prije nekoliko godina, živjeli su povučenije, ali sad stari ljudi
vode brigu, čiste prirodu i održavaju cvijeće. Intenzivnije su
povezani s okolišem.
oris — Mislim da je taj proces postupne transformacije
okoliša prirodan. Vi, kustosica Yuko Hasegawa i Fondacija
Fukutake razgovarali ste s lokalnim stanovništvom o tome
kako pristupiti novom razvoju i uzeli ste njihova mišljenja u
obzir. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Da. Područje je vrlo lijepo, ali se
zbog izolacije koristilo kao odlagalište smeća i medicinskog
otpada. To nije široko poznata činjenica. Sad se moramo sjetiti
da smo to učinili. To je ozbiljan problem.

sanaa, Trajektni by the ship, the size of the street and also the crane which was sanaa, Trajektni
terminal Naoshima, terminal Naoshima,
very small. In the plexiglass pavilion the engineer proposed we
Kagawa, Japan, Kagawa, Japan,
2003. – 2005. use more elements of 4 cm and I agreed. For me collaboration 2003. – 2005.
with structural engineers is very important.
sanaa, Naoshima sanaa, Naoshima
oris — At first glance the pavilions in Inujima seem to be
Ferry Terminal, Ferry Terminal,
Kagawa, Japan, designed for specific artworks but that is actually not the Kagawa, Japan,
2003 – 2005 case, it’s the opposite. ¶ kazuyo sejima — They are tem- 2003 – 2005
porary galleries. There is a curator, Yuko Hasegawa, and she
(ib) (ib)
can select the art. Only the first exhibition was decided by
Soichiro Fukutake, the Chairman of the Board of the Fukutake
Foundation. There’s the Setouchi Triennale Art Festival tak-
ing place there and the most beautiful season is spring. The
second art festival took place in 2013 and the second phase
was prepared. It’s a tiny island so we also check what happens.
We would like to gradually change it during the next ten years.
The third phase is a very, very tiny pass so I am not allowed to

24 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 25
 Kazuyo Sejima &
Associates, Poslovna
zgrada u Shibauri,
Tokio, Japan,
2008. – 2011.

Kazuyo Sejima &

Associates, Office
building in Shibaura,
Tokyo, Japan,
2008 – 2011

(ib)

detaljni presjek

detail section

26 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 27
 oris — Mislite li da je moguće revitalizirati otoke samo pomoću
umjetničkih paviljona? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Ne znam što će se
dogoditi za 20 ili 30 godina, vaše pitanje si i sama postavljam.
Godine 2011. smo u Japanu imali veliku katastrofu, potres i tsu-
nami, i posjetila sam mnoga pogođena mjesta. Nešto ostane čak
i nakon velikog razaranja i na plaži sam osjećala povijest. Srela
sam neke ljude i onda shvatila da oni imaju energiju početi iz
početka na temelju te povijesti. Bila sam posjetitelj pa sam mislila
da ničega nema, ali za njih postoji sjećanje. Shvatila sam da će za
20 godina na Inujimi umrijeti svi koji su sad živi, ali će ljudi i dalje
posjećivati galerije i nastojati održati sjećanje. Zgrade su napu-
štene ili srušene, ali to se sad mijenja. Vrlo je važno da ljudi ondje
žive i da ondje dolaze. Dogodilo se nekoliko malih stvari, ali ako
se kreće, mislim da će možda biti bolje. Stvoreni su novi uvjeti.
Naoshima ima previše stanovnika i mnogo mladih u roditeljskim
kućama. Sad su otvorili restorane na otoku. U budućnosti ćemo
možda svjedočiti kako se rađaju novi životni stilovi.
oris — Rekli ste da je topografija ili geografija vaših kuća
povezana s uvjetima suvremenog društva. U nekim ste inter-
vjuima govorili o odnosu između Vaše arhitekture i informa-
cijskog društva te promjenama koje utječu na naše živote.
Možete li reći na koji način? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Mislim da
Kazuyo Sejima &
Associates, Poslovna
Živimo u umreženom make architecture, just to put some stones but in ten years se tijelo promijenilo, da osjećamo različite stvari. Živimo u
maybe something will change so we or some artists can use it, umreženom društvu, dva se vremena kreću paralelno. To je
zgrada u Shibauri,
Tokio, Japan,
društvu, dva se vremena not necessarily as a gallery. Slowly we will develop the island. nova vrsta osjećajnosti, percepcija koju možda dobivamo od
2008. – 2011.
kreću paralelno oris — I think this is the only possible way to approach Inu- informatičkog društva ili umreženog društva. Moje je tijelo
jima because it is such a small island with tradition and 50 ovdje, ali ga istovremeno osjećam na drugom mjestu.
Kazuyo Sejima &
Associates, Office people living there. Actually I saw just a few. They were very oris — Višestrukost percepcije može se naći i u učincima
building in Shibaura,
Tokyo, Japan,
We are living in network polite and helpful and obviously accepted the art pavilions transparentnosti, polutransparentnosti i odrazima u vašim
and visitors, but they also still live a traditional quiet life. radovima. ¶ kazuyo sejima — U Japanu tradicionalno kori-
2008 – 2011
society, two times are Visiting Inujima is not only about art but you can also experi- stimo drvo, tako da nismo kultura zidova, već kultura okvira.
moving in parallel ence a glimpse of life on a remote Japanese island. ¶ kazuyo Uvijek osjećam razliku, tako da to možda utječe na prostor, a
(ib)
sejima — They care about the island very much I think. When i na percepciju.
28 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju
I visited it few years ago, they lived quiet lives, but now old
men take care, cleaning the park and maintaining the flowers.
There is more care.
oris — I think this process of gradual transformation of
the environment is like a natural process. You, curator Yuko
Hasegawa and the Fukutake Foundation discussed with the
local people how to approach the redevelopment, you took
their opinions into account. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Yes. The
area is really beautiful but actually because of its isolation
it was used for garbage and medical waste. It is not a well-
known fact. Now we must remember that we did such things.
This is a serious issue.
oris — Do you think that it is possible to revitalise the
islands only through art pavilions? ¶ kazuyo sejima — I
don’t know what will happen 20 or 30 years, this is also a ques-
tion I ask myself but at the same time we had a big disaster in
2011, the earthquake and tsunami, and I visited many places.
Even after the big disaster something remains and I could feel
some history at the beach. I started to meet some people and
then I realised that people can have the energy to start from
this history. I was a visitor so I thought there is nothing, but
for them the memory remains. So I realised that in 20 years
everyone now living will die in Inujima, but still, if people keep
visiting the galleries and try to keep the memory it will stay
alive. The buildings were abandoned and they will go down,
but now gradually it’s changing. It is very important that peo-
ple live there and that people come there. One guy has already
moved there and started a restaurant. Some small things have
happened but if something is moving maybe I think it will be
better. This is also one new condition. Naoshima has too many
people and many young people packed in their parents’ house.
Now they’ve started a restaurant on the island. In future we
may find new lifestyles emerging.
kazuyo sejima, Interview 29
 istočno pročelje sanaa, Zollverein
škola za menadžment
east elevation i dizajn, Essen,
Njemačka,
2003. – 2006.
sjeverno pročelje

sanaa, Zollverein
School of Management
and Design, Essen,
Germany, 2003 – 2006
north elevation

zapadno pročelje južno pročelje

west elevation south elevation

wall culture but a frame culture. I always feel the difference,

sanaa, oris — You said the topography or geography of your
Zollverein škola
buildings is related to the condition of temporary society.
za menadžment
i dizajn, Essen, You have spoken in some interviews about the relationship
Njemačka, between your architecture and the information society and
2003. – 2006.
changes that influence our lives. Could you describe in what
sanaa, way? ¶ kazuyo sejima — I think that the body has changed.
Zollverein School I think that we can feel different things. We are living in a net-
of Management
work society, two times are moving in parallel. This is somehow
and Design,
Essen, Germany, with this type of sense, the perception we maybe got from the
2003 – 2006 information society or networks in society. My body is here but
at the same time I could feel I am in a different space.
(ib)
oris — Translation of the multiplicity of perception to
architecture can be found in the treatment of transparency,
semi-transparency and reflection in your work. ¶ kazuyo
sejima — Traditionally in Japan we use wood, so it’s not a
plan aktivne
izolacije
active insulation
plan
oris — U zapadnoj tradiciji o kućama se razmišlja kao o objek-
tima. Iz zapadne perspektive može se činiti da Japanci tradi-
cionalno ne misle o kući kao objektu, već više kao o egzisten-
cijalnom prostoru. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Možda, ali ne samo
u Japanu, već u čitavoj južnoj Aziji. To je povezano i s klimom.
Imamo mnogo vlage i trebamo mnogo prirodne ventilacije,
zato su unutrašnjost i okolina tradicionalno više povezani.
oris — U Aziji se ne morate brinuti o termičkoj izolaciji
zbog tople klime. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Naravno. Kad
sam prije 25 godina počela graditi, bilo je potrebno ugra-
đivati klimatizaciju samo za ljeto u jednu ili dvije sobe.
Onda smo postupno morali dodavati klimu i u spavaće
sobe, ali nikome nije palo napamet da ih stavlja u dječje
sobe. Bez sumnje je to sada uobičajeno. Ono što sam odu-
vijek smatrala čudnim je da je prije 25 godina u japanskom
so maybe this influences the space or the perception as well.
oris — Western tradition thinks about houses as objects
and I think traditionally the Japanese don’t think about the
house as an object, it is more like existential space. ¶ kazuyo
sejima — Maybe, not only in Japan but in South Asia. It is also
related to the climate, we have lots of humidity and we need
lots of natural ventilation, therefore in Asia inside and outside
are traditionally more connected.
oris — In Asia you don’t have to deal with insulation because
of the warm climate. ¶ kazuyo sejima —  Of course. When I
started to make buildings 25 years ago, it was not necessary to
put air conditioning in so we used only to put air conditioning
for the summer in one or two living rooms. Then gradually
we were required to add one more unit to the bedroom but
no one imagined putting a unit in the children’s room. Now
there is no doubt, it is common. What I also always thought
strange is that 25 years ago office space required 500 lux of
light in Japan. That is too bright for us, but companies required
500 Lux so we calculated and we made it but now, before the
tsunami, 1000 Lux was required and then if we architects don’t
plan 1000 Lux for a big company it is our mistake. I was always
wondering why, in 25 years, the brightness has doubled. After
the tsunami, at least in Japan, maybe it is time to start rethink-
ing these issues, it is really important.
oris — Sometimes these periods of crisis actually can

30 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 31
 sanaa, Novi muzej
suvremene umjetnosti,
južno pročelje istočno pročelje sjeverno pročelje
Minimalizam je ponekad Minimalism is sometimes
New York, sad,
2003. – 2007.
south elevation east elevation north elevation
ograničavajući too limited
zapadno pročelje

sanaa, New Museum

of Contemporary Art,
New York, usa,
2003 – 2007
west elevation

sanaa, Novi muzej

suvremene umjetnosti,
New York, sad,
2003. – 2007.

sanaa, New Museum

of Contemporary Art,
New York, usa,
2003 – 2007

(dk)

uredu bilo potrebno 500 luksa svjetlosti. To je za nas pre-
više svjetla, ali su tvrtke tako zahtijevale, pa smo računali
i ugradili toliko, ali sad, prije tsunamija, trebalo je 1000
luksa. Ako mi arhitekti ne projektiramo 1000 luksa za veliki radni
prostor, to je naša greška. Uvijek sam se pitala zašto se u 25
godina povećala potreba za svjetlom. Nakon tsunamija, barem u
Japanu, možda je potrebno ponovo razmisliti da je to vrlo važno.
oris — Ponekad ta razdoblja krize zapravo doprinose i otva-
raju nove kvalitete i vrijednosti. Čak i prije tsunamija, kako ste
pristupali održivosti u projektiranju arhitekture? ¶ kazuyo
contribute to and open up new qualities and values. Even
before the tsunami, what was your approach to sustainability
in your architectural design? ¶ kazuyo sejima — This is dif-
ficult because I use a lot of glass. This is very critical. I want to
study organization more, not just to think about single parts,
I want to know the whole continuity. For example I designed
a glass building for Novartis. The energy saving requirements
were very strict so we used three layers with a screen, very
heavy glass. The material saves energy but at the same time it
was expensive. In Japan, we have now started to think about
sejima — Održivost je za mene složena jer koristim mnogo
stakla. No održivost je kritično važna. Zanima me održivost kao
cjelina, a ne samo razmišljanje o pojedinim dijelovima. Želim
znati čitav kontinuitet. Na primjer, za Novartis sam projektirala
staklenu zgradu i energetski zahtjevi su bili tako strogi da smo
upotrijebili tri sloja vrlo teškog stakla. Materijal štedi energiju,
ali je istovremeno vrlo skup. U Japanu počinjemo razmišljati o
održivosti, ali zaostajemo za Europom. U Japanu je tradicio-
nalno vrlo lako rastvarati prostor pa se energija gubi, ali se isto-
vremeno nešto i dobiva. Mislim da je vrlo važno razmisliti kako
energy efficiency but before we were behind Europe. In Japan sanaa, Novi muzej
suvremene umjetnosti,
traditionally it is very easy to open and close space and maybe
New York, sad,
there is some loss of energy but at the same time you get some 2003. – 2007.
other qualities. So I think it is very important to think how to
save energy but I want to know more about organization, the sanaa, New
Museum of
energy cycle. Also, whether architecture is more accepted by
Contemporary Art,
the public is also related to sustainability, not only energy but New York, usa,
how to relate, or how to care, or how is it going to be used. It 2003 – 2007
is very important to think about the energy and the façade and
(dk)
the ventilation or how to save energy but at the same time to

32 oris, broj 82, godina 2013 oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 33
 štedjeti energiju, ali ja želim više organizacije, kruženja energije.
Isto tako, ako želimo da arhitekturu prihvati šira publika, to je
povezano s održivošću ne samo energije, već i povezanosti,
brige, korištenja. Važno je razmišljati o energiji i pročelju i ven-
tilaciji i kako štedjeti energiju, ali istovremeno i kako postojati,
živjeti. Ako projektiramo energetski vrlo održivu zgradu, ne
mislim da je nužno održiva za ljudsko tijelo. Održivost je vrlo
složena, ali mislim da je dobar trenutak da svi počnu razmišljati s
drugog stajališta o drukčijim profesionalnim i različitim idejama.
oris — Zato što održivost nije samo o energiji, nego postoji
mnogo različitih vrsta održivosti, socijalna održivost…
¶ kazuyo sejima — Da, jednostavno je reći da ćemo ušte-
djeti energiju, ali je socijalna održivost mnogo složenija.
oris — Kad ste govorili o problemu trostrukog stakla, koliko
vaša arhitektura ovisi o detaljima i tehničkim rješenjima?
Koliko je to važno da bi se ostvarila koherentnost zgrade?
¶ kazuyo sejima — Konstrukcija je definitivno vrlo važna,
također i detalj, ali važan je prostor, stvaranje okoliša. Uglav-
nom mislim da se nismo dovoljno bavili materijalima. Nedavno
smo počeli intenzivnije razmišljati o tome kako koristimo
materijale.
oris — Dosad ste koristili reduciranu paletu materijala. Je
li to bila estetska odluka ili je došla iz nekog drugog izvora?
¶ kazuyo sejima — Da, to je estetska odluka i neki su
rezultati stvarno dobri. Ako isto možemo postići koristeći
mali broj materijala, onda biramo samo njih, ali moramo više
razmišljati o odnosima prema postojećem okolišu. Ako je
planina u daljini, nejasan je obris, ali ako smo u blizini, onda
vidimo detalje, tipove drveća, boje, mnogo toga. Dakle bitni
su lokacija i mjerilo, ali mislim da smo do sada koristili premalo
materijala da se prilagodimo okolišu. Sviđa mi se Novi muzej u
New Yorku. Izdaleka je vrlo jednostavan, kad se zimi gleda iz
daljine ponekad se utapa u nebo, ali ako smo u blizini zgrade,
postupno se javlja taj osjećaj da površina nije ravna, vidimo
teksturu. Ta raznolika tekstura možda ima dobar odnos prema
okolini. Izvana ne odskače, ali se vidi. Želimo zgradi osigurati
kontinuitet u odnosu na okolinu, ali i mjerilo. Građevina se
razlikuje od okoliša jer stavljanje manjih volumena jedan na
drugi održava mjerilo i kontinuitet.
oris — U kuće unosite slike iz okoliša. Koristite vrlo jedno-
stavne materijale i oni ne samo da odražavaju, već i upijaju
okolinu. Zato bih volio izbjeći taj pojam minimalizma. Nekako
se konotacije minimalizma previše odnose na estetiku i druge
vizualne umjetnosti. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Minimalizam je
ponekad ograničavajući.
34 oris, broj 82, godina 2013
think about existence. If we construct a very sustainable build-
ing, I don’t think it is necessarily very sustainable for the human
body. So sustainability is very complex but I think it is a very
good moment for everyone to start to think from a different
point of view, from different professional or different ideas.
oris — Because sustainability is not only about energy but
there are many different types of sustainability, social sus-
tainability... ¶ kazuyo sejima — Yes, it is easy to see how
we can save energy but social sustainability is more difficult.
oris — When you spoke about this problem regarding
the three-layered glass, how much does your architecture
depend on detailing and technical solutions? How important
is it to the coherence of the building? ¶ kazuyo sejima — 
The structure is definitely very important and the space, then
to achieve some environment, maybe also some detail, but
mainly we are not that good at using materials I think. We
recently started to think how we use materials.
oris — Until now you have used quite a reduced palette of
materials. Was it an aesthetic decision or did it come from
some other source? ¶ kazuyo sejima — Yes, aesthetic, and
some results are really good. If we can achieve the same thing
using only a few materials then we accept only those, but we
have think more about the relation to the existing surroundings.
If we see a mountain from very far away it is just grim, but if we
are close to the mountain then we see every detail or type of
trees or the colours or many things. So it depends on the site
or the size but until now we have used a bit too little material
to fit the surroundings, I think. I like the New Museum. The
New Museum is very simple from far away, sometimes in the
winter it melts into the sky from far away, then if we are close to
the building, gradually an industrial feeling appears and we can
see it is not flat, we can see the texture. This industrial texture
maybe has a good relation to the surroundings. It is not so out-
standing from outside but we can see this industrial texture. We
want to provide the building continuity to its surroundings but
also in scale. This building is very different from its surround-
ings but, because of the placing of smaller volumes on top of
each other, building the still has some scale, some continuity.
oris — And I would say that you bring images taken from
the environment into the building. You can use quite simple
materials and they not only reflect but also absorb the sur-
roundings. Therefore I’d like to avoid this notion of minimal-
ism. Somehow connotations of minimalism are too related to
aesthetics and other visual arts. ¶ kazuyo sejima — Mini-
malism is sometimes too limited.
oris, number 82, year 2013 kazuyo sejima, Intervju kazuyo sejima, Interview 35