J Rat-Emo Cognitive-Behav Ther (2010) 28:141–144

DOI 10.1007/s10942-010-0117-x

COMMENTARY

Two REBT Therapists and One Client: Commentary

Hank Robb

Published online: 22 May 2010

 Springer Science+Business Media, LLC 2010

Abstract In the summer of 1994, two of the most published authors in the field of
Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), Albert Ellis and Windy Dryden, each
saw the same client. Examination of the transcripts shows very different session
trajectories when the issues raised by the client are seen by the practitioners either as
mainly practical problems that can be immediately addressed or as mainly emo-
tional problems that are to be addressed before moving onto address practical
problems.

Keywords Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy
REBT
Psychotherapy

Therapist comparison

Introduction

The session transcripts of Albert Ellis and Windy Dryden who both saw ‘‘Jane’’ in
the summer of 1994 are examined with regard to the distinction between
‘‘emotional’’ and ‘‘practical’’ problems and the focus on disputing Irrational Beliefs
which are seen in Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy as the main source of
emotional disturbance (Ellis and Dryden 1987).

Commentary on Albert Ellis & Jane

In his session with Jane, Ellis very soon seems to decide that he will address Jane’s
issues as if they are primarily practical. Throughout the session, he quite
systematically gathers information on her practical situation and the practical

H. Robb (&)
Lake Oswego, OR 97035, USA
e-mail: robbhb@pacificu.edu

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effects of staying with her husband or leaving her husband and taking up residence
with her lover. By lines 106-7 he responds, ‘‘Oh, I see…right…So the main thing is
whether you should wait a while ’til your children are older or leave now. Is that the
conflict?’’ He explores the implications of leaving her husband so that by line 210 he
responds, ‘‘Right. Right, so you would have to make a rough change if you decided
to make it.’’ And by lines 230-1 he speculates, ‘‘Well, it sounds that if you lived
with L. and married L. that you’d be happier…’’. Ellis notes in line 290 that she
would be able to keep her same job if she moved in with her lover.
The session moves on to some of the problems living with her therapist-lover,
lines 315-6, ‘‘… I mean, I can’t say anything without him wanting to dig deep
down…’’. The issues of her lover’s anger, substance use, and debts are all treated as
practical problems to be addressed as the ‘‘cons’’ in a comparison of the positives
and negatives of choosing to live life with him rather than her husband. By lines
626–7 Ellis responds, ‘‘So again the problem is that feels good and you’re in love,
and he’s in love with you and it feels good, but what’s going to be?…’’ Ellis
encourages ways that she might reduce some of the possible downsides of her
decision such as getting a separation from her husband so that she could live with
her lover for a while to see how things go or at least to postpone marrying him so as
not to hamstring herself financially should she decide later that her current lover is
not the mate for her.
Though Jane is tearful when contemplating the possibility of losing contact
with her friends and children if she chooses her lover over her husband, line 679,
Ellis seems to view the response as simply one of sorrow over some potentially
serious life disappointments. In lines 681–2 he responds, ‘‘Alright. The question
has to be, if you’re not disturbed about these things, then you can do what we call
a hedonic calculus…’’ Following basic REBT principles, Ellis underlines that
work on the practical problems should proceed only after reducing emotional
disturbance. However, he does not respond as if Jane currently has any emotional
problems that might impede efforts to address her practical problems. As the
session ends, Ellis cautions Jane about the problems of not first reducing the
influence of several irrational beliefs, of which he gives examples, but he does not
engage her in disputing any irrational beliefs that might be operating at the present
moment.

Commentary on Windy Dryden & Jane

Dryden’s interview proceeds rather differently because he rather quickly

determines that emotional as well as practical problems may be present, lines
72–3, ‘‘So you have a fear, that if you went to your kids…?’’ In the conversation
that follows Dryden collects a lot of Activating Events that might be related to the
possibly Dysfunctional Consequence (DC) of fear and finds some facts about
which Jane doesn’t seem to be disturbing herself, lines 155–6, ‘‘Right… But it
sounds as if you’re not disturbing yourself about the fact that you are not making a
decision.’’ By lines 179–80 Dryden is wondering aloud if the Rational Belief (RB)
might really lead to the DC of devastation Jane has voiced a few lines earlier,

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‘‘Mm hmm. It wouldn’t be enjoyable, but that doesn’t equate to being devastated
does it?…’’ By lines 203–4 Dryden offers Jane a belief that she might be holding,
‘‘… Would you say that you were kind of adding that ‘it will be the end of the
world’ aspect to this?’’ When Jane shows she is holding this belief, Dryden shows
her how to dispute it, but by line 258 Jane is back to, ‘‘Um. I would feel
devastated.’’ By sharply wording his next response Dryden ‘‘pops out’’ the
Irrational Belief (IB) related to her feeling of ‘‘devastation,’’ line 264, ‘‘That I
couldn’t stand it.’’ And, by line 277, Jane voices the RB, ‘‘I could probably tolerate
it. But I wouldn’t like it.’’
By producing scenarios in which Jane might willingly never see her children
again he uncovers another DC, guilt, and offers a possible IB for it, lines 351–2, ‘‘…
I’m a bad person for doing the wrong thing, ’cos I’m being selfish, right? Is that how
you would feel?’’ Dryden helps Jane see that no matter what she decides she is
going to have to give up something important. Very cleverly, but ultimately
inelegantly, he helps Jane see that she is not a bad person for being selfish because
she doesn’t really meet the criteria for selfishness in the first place, lines 379–80,
‘‘But selfishness in my book means only putting yourself first and not really giving a
damn about other people,’’ which Jane clearly does do.
Dryden soldiers on and is able to get Jane to see that demandingness is a root
cause of her emotional problems and invites her to dispute it, lines 499–501,
‘‘Because, aren’t you demanding a guarantee? Aren’t you really saying, ‘Jesus, if I
go with this guy, he has to a) stay alive, and b) love me. He’s got to promise me
this, and keep the promise.’ Ok. Does he have to do that?’’ In lines 521–5 Dryden
summarizes contrasting Dysfunctional and Functional Emotional Consequences
and encouraging her to give up demandingness. ‘‘First of all, you need to take the
horror out of losing L. on the one scenario and the horror out of losing the kids.
Not the sadness. You will be very sad, whatever you’ve done… It’s important to
give up the demand that you have to have it all. And also the demand for a
guarantee that if you choose L. he’s going to stay around and love you.’’ Dryden
next gets Jane to practice ‘‘standing up to the voice inside her head’’ which Dryden
role-plays.
Dryden can now help Jane move onto the practical problems of choosing L. He
shows her that while she might not have a cosmic right to demand L. make certain
commitments, she is able to negotiate that if she is going to make certain
commitments to him then she, in turn, can require certain commitments from him,
lines 651–2, ‘‘Since he’s asking me to make a commitment I can feel okay with
asking him to make a commitment.’’

Summary

These two interviews with the same woman about the same problems by two
practitioners skilled in the same approach turn out to be rather different. This
difference can be traced to Ellis addressing the issues only as practical problems
while Dryden sees emotional problems that are to be addressed first. My hope is that
readers will find this analysis instructive as they consider interventions with their

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own clients or as they consult with other practitioners about different potentially
applicable intervention options in various moments of REBT treatment.

Reference

Ellis, A., & Dryden, W. (1987). The practice of rational-emotive therapy (RET). New York: Springer.

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