 CDM

I am wondering if there is any value to adding CDMs to my GT with DLN. Does anyone
have these systems? and if so which ones would you recommend.

 Way too little information provided here.

How do you operate your machine? Base Load? Load following? Daily start/stop?
Peaker?

Heavy duty gas turbine? Aero-derivative? B-class unit? E-class unit? F-class unit?
DLN-I? DLN 2.0? DLN 2.6?

Have you had problems with combustion hardware failures due to high combustion
dynamics? Have you had repeated hardware failures attributable to high
combustion dynamics?

Do you have to retune more than once per year to keep the unit's emissions output
in compliance with regulations?

Do you have remote DLN tuning capability?

 I was inquiring about a 7EA run as a peaker with DLN1 system. that goes out
of emission compliance on some start-ups and need to re-tune. Typically gets tuned
in spring and fall for ambient changes.

Don't do remote tuning but were thinking if CDMs were added we could do that. or
also thinking about software that GE has to offer that allows us to auto-tune.

Haven't had any HW problems that we are aware of yet or that have brought us
down.
 CDM is required for any auto tuning product. I believe there is a product
called ECOMAX that also auto-tunes.
 Does anyone have experience with either ECOMAX or GE's version?
recommendations?

Has anyone had any issues where the CDMs alarmed on dynamics?

I think our GT is robust on dynamics and that emissions may be more of a concern.
 Response: We installed 4 CDMs in our four GE 7FA's. We originally did our
first unit early this year. We brought the signals into our DCS system for Achieving
and Alarming. The system that GTE installed for us is far superior to the previous
CDMs that we had (GE). as far as reliability and interfacing with our equipment
(DCS). We now have Critical alarming for our operators and our maintenance crew
can actually trouble shoot the turbines dynamics. The Windows are actually
available through out the Plant site and can actually be viewed company wide.
We didn't stop there, We purchase the ECOMax system which we are really satisfied
with the results. For example we had a GT that historically gave GE fits when it came
to tuning the machine. We have seasonally set a unique curve to this machine. GTE
engineering was able to install the ECOmax autotune. The machine tunes
automatically for Nox and Dynamics.We are currently a very satisfied customer. We
Now have all four 7FA's on CDMS and ECOmax systems on line.
 If you don't had any problems dynamics in the past it seems an expensive
operation. However, by looking into your combustors you can see how much
margin you have concerning the emissions.

It is however not clear whether the autotuning systems are only active in premix
operation or not. If they are only active in fully premix, these systems will not solve
a start-up emissions problems (Carlos, do you know if the Ecomax system is active
during start-up?, and what type of combustion system do you have on your 7FA's?).
 Another question I have on autotuning is does it tune after an outage or will
that still need to be done manually?
 The ECOMAX system tunes continuously. It will tune after an outage, or
during normal operations.

As for start up tuning, they told us that is an option, such as "yellow plume" tuning
in modes other than premix. We did not purchase it.

 Combustion dynamics in gas turbine

 Thread Starter
bhola
 What is exactly combustion dynamics in Gas turbine? can someone please
explain me about it. as it is very important for me to understand the combustion
philosophy. i am fresher in Combine cycle power plant.
 Combustion dynamics refers to the combustion process inside the
combustion "can" and "liner". When fuel is burned, there is a pressure increase, and
depending on the design of the combustor, the fuel nozzles, the liner, etc., the
combustion process can be smooth or it can be subject to pressure oscillations or
pulsations. These oscillations or pulsations, if not minimized, can lead to premature
failure of combustion components as well as unstable flame.

When fuel is burning in a combustion turbine, there are very high air flows and this
causes turbulence which is both desirable and undesirable. It's desired to achieve
good mixing with the fuel for efficient combustion, but it's not desirable because it
can lead to high pressure oscillations/pulsations.

Some pressure oscillations or pulsations can be like pressure pulsations in a pipe or

vibrations, they can be "exaggerated" at some points and become very, very
destructive. They can be said to have resonance or resonant frequencies which need
to be attentuated or avoided.
It's practically a science all unto itself and for some combustion systems, especially
it seems those with lean fuel/air ratios, they can be very difficult to achieve a
balance of stable combustion, stable "flame", low dynamics (pressure
oscillations/pulsations), and low emissions (which is the purpose of lean fuel/air
ratios in combustion turbines).
 Thanks for quick reply.
as i am working on GE 9FA turbine can you please shed some light what GE has done
to reduce turbulence as you said it can lead to high pressure oscillations/pulsations
which might damage the combustion parts (like liner , TP and combustion sleeve)?
 As the saying goes, "I could tell you; but then I'd have to kill you."

In other words, it's proprietary to GE's DLN (Dry Low NOx) combustion system.
There are a couple of "knobs" depending on the type of DLN system; some older
systems used to have valves between combustors. Most of it has to do with liner and
fuel nozzle design. And some of it has to do with fuel splits, which are optimized
during DLN tuning.

Some units have "permanent" combustion dynamics monitoring systems which are
used to detect possibly damaging situations and the operators are then notified to
take some kind of action. This can be through alarms in the turbine control panel, or
via a phone call from GE's Remote Monitoring & Diagnostics center (for those units
with On-site Monitors (OSMs) and a contractual services agreement or M&D
agreement).
 We have CDM system on our HMI screens. I want to learn, what is the critical
values for CDM values. 4 or 5 or 16 psi is critical value. Also critical values are same
for peak-1, peak-2, peak-3?

Another case: one of our machıne has 7psi in peak-1, 20psi in peak-2, 6psi in
peak-3. is it a dangerous situation? But adjacent nozzle's CDM values are very
normal like 2 - 1 - 1,5 and something like that.
 You did not tell which turbine model you have.

On Frame 9FA with DLN2+system dynamics bigger than 2.5psi are considered high
and would require strict monitoring. This is valid for all three frequency ranges.
Dynamics higher than 5psi are considered excessively high and would require
corrective action - DLN tuning.

It can happen that single combustion chamber has much higher dynamics than
adjacent but provided by you figures: 20psi v.s. 2psi are not normal and really
dangerous.
It is highly probable that the root cause of excessive dynamics in one chamber are
already damaged components of the combustion chamber; damaged by excessive,
long lasting dynamincs.

Another option is that pressure sensing loop in that chamber is not working
properly. In the JB with electronic components that is installed typically on the side
of the turbine compartment (where are landed cables from dynamics monitoring
pressure sensors) there is a testing plug. By replacing the connections from
pressure transmitters with this testing plug it is injected testing signal into direction
of CDM monitor - if I am not mistaken testing signal simulating 1psi.
If site has a special testing generator ( I think it is not standard part of the system -
site should purchase it separately) it can be installed near the combustion chamber,
replacing the plug from pressure sensor and it can be tested additionally cable from
pressure transmitters to CDM monitor. It is not possible to test easily pressure
transmitters.

Combustion dynamics are affected by gas property represented by wobbe index and
this in turn depends on gas composition and gas temperature.
- Do you monitor gas composition? Is it the same as during the last DLN tuning?
Even small changes in the gas composition can provoke big change in dynamics.

- Is gas heated on your site? Do you keep this temperature the same as during the
last DLN tuning?

- Are gas valves properly calibrated? Was calibration of the gas valves changed from
the last DLN tuning?

- If you have on your site purge valve PG-2,did you check that valve opens properly?
On standard configuration, there is no continus feedback of this valve position, only
limit switches and on system with heated gas, high temperature damages the I/P
converter.
 Thanks for your detailed answer.

I'll try to write a detailed problem description and what happened about this
problem. Maybe these information will be helpful for somebody in the future.

As a beginning,our machine is GE 9FA with DLN2+.

-This sudden increase in these values are occurred in nearly 243Mw and as I
indicated before, peak1-2-3 increased to 17-44-19 psi.

-This abnormality occurred after 120 hours of the start.

-During S/D there was no maintenance activities in gas skid, neither on valves nor
on software about gas and purge valves.

-There was not any abnormal situation with the adjacent cans. They were nearly 1-2
psi

-Also there was not any abnormal vibration

-Everything was normal with the continuous emmissioning system.

-There was no wobbie index alarm, also HHV has not any significant change.

-In our site gas heated up-to 175C, on the date of event there is not any change in
the gas temperature.

Now its time to reply your questions:

> - Is gas heated on your site? Do you >keep this temperature the same as during the
last DLN tuning?
YES WE ARE HEATING GAS. YES WE KEEP IT AS THE SAME IN OUR LAST DLN
TUNING.

> - Are gas valves properly calibrated?

YES GAS VALVES ARE PROPERLY CALIBRATED.

> Was calibration of the gas valves changed from the last DLN tuning?
NO CALIBRATION DID NOT CHANGE AFTER THE LAST DLN TUNING.

> - If you have on your site purge valve PG-2,did you check that valve opens
properly?
YES THAT VALVE OPENS PROPERLY

As a result:
-This situation was discussed with GE urgently and they stated that: This seems not
a real reading. It seems like a thermocouple failure. We can run the unit safely like
that.

-After 8 hour from the sudden increase, values decreased as sudden as they
increased. They declined to 6-15-1 peak1-2-3 respectively.

-After 24 Hours from the sudden increase, values were 4-10-1 peak1-2-3
respectively.

If anybody need any more information or have any question please feel free to
contact with me.
 Additional information provided by you suggests, as stated by GE in your
message, for defective measuring instrument/bad connection, not real reading.

You write: 'It seems like a thermocouple failure.' Do you see excessive exhaust
spread that could be linked (by swirl) with the chamber having high dynamics?

I think that dynamics of the magnitude 17...44psi (as you stated) should be possible
to hear around the turbine: please compare dynamics readings (around 7psi) at the
instant of the transfer to Premix with the noise near the turbine at this moment. The
conditions are not directly comparable (one can with dynamics vs. 18 cans during
the Premix transfer) but can be used as some reference.
 <b>Moderator's Note:</b> checked out the link. It is to a paper titled
"Dynamic Pressure Monitoring in Gas Turbines."

 Combustion Dynamics in Gas turbine

 I am working on GE 9e turbine dln1. can you please

what is exactly combustion dynamics in Gas turbine? can someone please explain
me about it. as it is very important for me to understand the combustion philosophy.
 Because there is 1) so much air versus fuel in the primary combustion zone
in Premix Steady-State combustion mode, and, 2) there is such a small diffusion
flame in the secondary combustion zone when in Premix Steady-State Combustion
mode the pressure in the combustors can fluctuate--so much so that the
combustion liners and transition pieces vibrate causing 1) increased wear on the
parts, and, 2) the diffusion flame can propagate back into the primary combustion
zone and/or the diffusion flame in the secondary combustion zone can be
extinguished.

When operating in Premix Steady-State combustion mode the stability of operation

(the absence of diffusion flame in the Primary combustion zone and the presence of
diffusion flame in the secondary combustion zone) is very low--so oscillating
pressure in the combustors can cause both increased mechanical wear on parts and
cause unstable combustion and primary zone reigniton or loss of secondary
diffusion flame.

GE draws an imaginary four-sided box (diamond; parralellogram) to describe the

small area that represents stable combustion and low emissions (the area inside the
box). DLN combustion is a pretty precise science.

Standing near a heavy duty gas turbine one can feel vibrations on the walkway and
even in the ground. Those are normal pressure oscillations of combustion, which is
not an entirely smooth process. Many people mistakenly believe the normal
vibration of combustion is the result of shaft rotation. When standing near a turbine
when it trips while loaded, even though the turbine shaft is still rotating the
vibrations on the walkway and the ground virtually disappear as the unit coasts
down from rated speed. That's because there's no fuel combusting.

And when a unit has DLN combustors, the pressure oscillations--can have serious
implications for mechanical wear and combustion stability, and also, emissions.

Hope this helps!

 Air fuel ratio of the gas turbine

 Good day. I read one or two articles in which air to fuel ratio formula is given
as
A/F = ma/mf
Here
ma = mass air flow of the compressor
mf = mass flow of the fuel

I have calculate with this formula but the result is very strange. For example in our
case.
The mass air flow is 35.4 pound per second and the fuel flow is 2257 pounds per
hour.

The result is 56.5 (change 2257 into PPS)

what it means?

Help me to calculate the air fuel ratio of the gas turbine if the above formula is
wrong?
 Exactly what are you trying to accomplish?

Are you trying to design a gas turbine? Model a gas turbine?

Are you trying to develop a program to calculate the efficiency of a gas turbine? Or a
program to determine when it's appropriate to perform some maintenance activity
(off-line compressor water washing, for example)?

I'm certain all of this has been done, many times and in many ways, for many
Masters and Doctorate programs over the years. If you searched the libraries of
technical universities you would probably find several papers that would be most
helpful.

Gas turbines have a LOT of 'excess air,' because a lot of the air is used for cooling and
dilution of the combustion gases resulting from the burning of fuel. Those gas
temperatures are hotter than the turbine nozzles and buckets can withstand, so they
must be cooled/diluted--and that's what a lot of the axial compressor discharge air
is used for. Only a portion of the axial compressor discharge air is actually used for
combustion (mixed with fuel for burning); the rest is used for cooling and diluting
the hot combustion gases before they enter the 1st stage turbine nozzles.

The orifices in the head end of the combustor (where the fuel nozzle is located) and
the design of the fuel nozzle and the gas fuel orifices in the fuel nozzle determine the
fuel/air ratio for combustion of the fuel. Only a portion of the axial compressor
discharge enters the head end of the combustor and the fuel nozzle orifices.

The rest of the axial compressor discharge air enters the combustion liner through
cooling and dilution slots and holes in the liner body and reduces the gas
temperature to something the turbine nozzle and bucket materials can withstand.
So, just by knowing the mass flow of the axial compressor and the mass flow of fuel
it's not possible to calculate the air/fuel ratio because all of the air is not used for
combustion; a good deal of the air flow through the compressor is used for cooling
and dilution of the hot combustion gases before they enter the turbine section.

I don't know of a way to determine how much air is used for combustion and how
much is used for cooling and dilution. I do know that the oxygen content of a gas
turbine's exhaust is very oxygen rich, compared to, say, a reciprocating engine's
exhaust. I believe that combustion, stoichiometric combustion, occurs at something
around 14:1 for many fuels. But I think you will find that the axial compressor of gas
turbines flows much more air than this.

Again, if you would tell us what all these calculations (compressor ratio; compressor
efficiency; compressor mass flow; air-fuel ratios) were needed for we might be able
to help or offer more information or references.

I would suggest you do some more research on combustion turbines in general, and
axial compressors and combustors and turbines. Most turbine materials can't
withstand flame temperature gases, so they have to be cooled/diluted before they
are admitted to the turbine.

One heavy duty gas turbine OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) uses some
special probes (Kiel probes) to measure the static air pressure in the inlet ductwork
upstream of the bellmouth, as well as differential pressure sensors to measure the
actual inlet pressure (vacuum) at the bellmouth, and the ambient pressure
(Barometric pressure) and compressor inlet temperature to calculate air flow--and
that's actually a very crude measurement, I'm told. Only good for trending increases
or decreases. And, I know for a fact that maintenance and calibration of the sensors
is critical to proper operation of the air flow measurement system (the OEM calls it a
Performance Monitoring System, as the values are used in a performance trending
system, typically used for determining when to perform axial compressor washing,
off-line or on-line).

But, we can't provide much help when we don't know what you're trying to do with
all of these formulas and equations.
 Good day. I read your reply and thanks for the detail. Actually we have a
Centaur 40 two shaft family Gas Turbine and recently i am deputed for the field
performance of the gas turbine.

The centaur 40 family have a 11 stage axial compressor and in the operation manual
the 25% of the compressor discharge pressure is used for combustion while
remaining is used for cooling air.

In the field performance we can measure following parameters

1. Air inlet differential pressure
2. DP in to install a transmitter at the compressor inlet
3. Compressor discharge pressure
4. Compressor discharge temperature
5. Power turbine inlet temperature
6. Exhaust temperature
7. Exhaust pressure
8. Fuel flow in actual or in mass unit.

and we want to calculate

1. 11 stage axial Compressor efficiency

2. Mass air flow (If possible) other wise calculate the Compression ratio and see
from the curve what flow at that shaft speed (If any one provide the axial
compressor map).

3. Heat rate

4. Thermal efficiency

5. and you suggest what parameters also be needed for the field test?

If any one have an article regarding field performance with an example of

calculation i am very thankful.
 Have you contacted Solar for help with your project? I think they are pretty
helpful, at least in my experience in the past.

As for axial compressor "maps", I think that most gas turbine manufacturers keep
that information pretty close--as it's generally considered to be proprietary. Getting
as much air flow through an axial compressor is key to producing as much power as
possible. And, the way different manufacturers approach the maximum axial
compressor air flow--without broaching the compressor limits and creating surge
and/or stall conditions--are usually proprietary.

But, you would probably be surprised at the response you would get from Solar if
you contacted them for information and assistance. You might get most, if not all, of
what you are looking for.

It's worth a try.

Best of luck!

Also, there are lots of "users groups" for most of the major types of gas turbines in
use around the world. Sometimes for free, and sometimes for a nominal fee, an
owner/operator can join one of these groups and participate in forum discussions
with other owners about issues and problems and resolutions--including
performance measurement and optimization, as well as references for services and
parts. Perhaps you could search and locate a Centaur or Solar turbine users group
and see about joining--and participating--in their forums and meetings. I'm not
certain there is one for your machine, but I would be surprised if there wasn't.
Sometimes the OEMs support the users groups; sometimes they don't--particularly
since many owners share information about parts and services from third-party
providers.

The last thing I can say is that there are numerous companies around the world that
will do gas turbine performance assessments--of course, for a price. But, sometimes
that price is well worth it. You can learn a lot from watching a knowledgeable
company set up their instrumentation and from the report they issue when they are
done.

Please write back to let us know how you proceed and the results of your efforts.
 Good day. I read your reply and thanks for good advice. Now if you have field
performance related document in which one or two practical example are given
with finishing report please send me to at dynamicjavaboy@yahoo.com just for
reference or study.

Do you have any document in which GE turbine instrumentation positions show for
example AFPCS 96CS-1 transmitter?

Thanking you i will remain,

 Combustion Dynamics
If wobbe index is too high that very combustion dynamic at fullspeed no load, why?

If wobbe index is too low that very combustion dynamic at base load, why?
 I don't know which turbines you are using but I can talk GE industrial
machines, but I reckon it is pretty much the same for all.

The fuel gas regulating system is normally set up according to a gas specification
supplied by the customer at the time of ordering. This system will accept small
variations in the specification but large changes can affect the quality of control.
Low wobbe can mean that the machine cannot get enough fuel at Base Load as the
control valve is fully open. high wobbe can be more dangerous, particularly at Start-
up which is an open loop system with preset fuel valve control.

Things can be done with latest controls to correct these problems, but need a wobbe
analyzer to feed back to and correct the control system.
Write back and tell us which turbines you have, and what kind of wobbe changes
you are looking at and we can give you a better answer.
 Thank you so much Mr.glenmorangie.

I operating GE gas turbine 6B. Now flue gas wobbe index is 1220-1290 BTU/scf.
Next year gas wobbe index will change to 1220-1340 BTU/scf, but gas nozzle can
support 1210-1291 BTU/scf. I would like to know what effect if wobbe index higher
or lower gas nozzle specification?
 Your main problem will be at light off, when you have the highest wobbe
index. Remember this is a fixed GCV stroke setpoint. It would be worth contacting
GE for some advice, maybe you can get away with it as you are only slightly above
the maximum index number or maybe you can change the gas tips or modify the
startup parameters.

 Dynamics of Combustion
Could anybody explain the dynamics of GT annular combustion chamber with DLN
burners (24 no)? What are the required frequencies (for humming & acceleration) for
good combustion & its relationship with pilot gas flow.
 First of all, we don't know what type of unit you are running. There are a lot
of gas turbines with annular combustion chambers and each of these have their
own specific frequencies. Your post makes mee suspect that you have a Siemens gas
turbine but we still don't know which type of unit, V64.3A, V84.3A, V94.3A... It is
also important to know which type of combustion hardware (burners etc.) you
have. The typical humming and acceleration frequencies also depend on factors
such as the operating condition, ambient temperature ... and are sometimes unique
for each unit.

Values that are fit for one gas turbine are therefore not always valid for other gas
turbines. I advise you to investigate the implemented combustion control logic and
to follow-up the combustion tunings performed at your site(s). This will enhance
your understanding of the Dynamics of Combustion in your unit.

 We are running Siemens V94.3A1 units.

We have 24 Hybrid burners with facility of monitoring of humming ar burners

7,10,12,15 & 17 apart from standard monitoring (two no.) at combustion chamber.

As i understand , dominant frequency for humming of 15-25mbar should be at 85-

100hz (can be seen from spectrum).If max humming (15-20mbar) shifts toward
higher frequency (>120hz) combustion is considered as not stable, there will be
possibilities of acceleration. Optimization of spectrum will be done by tuning of pilot
gas flow.

GE machines (class F) having the arrangement of combustion chamber humming

measurement. So any explanation about the humming spectrum.