Air Date: 8/9/21

The Upgrade by Lifehacker

How to Negotiate Absolutely Anything, With Negotiation Expert Victoria
Medvec

Jordan Hey, and welcome to The Upgrade, the podcast from the team at Lifehacker,
where we help you improve your life one week at a time. I'm Jordan Calhoun, editor in
chief of Lifehacker.

Meghan And I'm Meghan Walbert, Lifehacker's managing editor.

Jordan And today we're becoming expert negotiators.

Meghan That's right. Or we're at least going to try to learn how to negotiate with anyone
on anything. And we've got revered negotiation expert Dr. Victoria Medvec to help.

Victoria Medvec And I argue that even in a one shot negotiation with the car salesperson
or a negotiation in a grocery store or a negotiation for yourself with your employer, you
should be very, very focused on addressing the other side's needs and less focused on
just what you want to get. And I would argue you will get more when you begin by focusing
on the other side rather than yourself.

Jordan Vicki is a professor at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern

University and the CEO of Medvec and Associates, a consulting firm focused on high
stakes negotiations and strategic decisions.

Meghan She's also a renowned expert in the areas of negotiation, executive decision
making and corporate governance. She teaches these topics to senior-level executives
from companies like McDonald's, JPMorgan Chase, Hewlett Packard and Microsoft. And
she advises CEOs on critical decisions and negotiations. Her new book is called Negotiate
Without Fear: Strategies and Tools to Maximize Your Outcomes.

Jordan Meghan, are you an expert negotiator? What does Meghan look like in negotiation
mode?

Meghan Oh, Jordan. It's not good. It's not good.

Jordan Tell me what your negotiation style is like.

Meghan Well, I just I, I will ask you for one thing and if you tell me no, then no means no.
And that's fine. And I'm sorry, I asked.

Jordan So you are so respectful of boundaries that you are actually apologetic.

Meghan Yes.

Jordan Just just for just for coming close to the line.

Meghan Yes. Could you could you give me a slight deal on this shirt? No? OK, I'll pay full
price. I got you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Jordan, are you any better? Please tell me you're
better.

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Jordan Oh I, I feel I'm pretty good at it but not because of substance but more style. I
think, I think my—listen, I am a six foot two black man who speaks sort of excitedly when I
get into it if I'm passionate about something. And I think that that goes an extremely long
way when it comes to negotiation.

Meghan Yes.

Jordan Like for better or worse, the world fears me, of course. And I am just you know,
I've got some problems with being a six foot two black man operating in the country, but
negotiation usually isn't one of them. If I am speaking in a voice that seems more
authoritative than I'm actually feeling at the time, like even if I do feel the way that you're
expressing verbally when you're saying like, well, can I have this or whatever, like I don't
use that tone, even if I feel it on the inside. And I think people respond to that in a certain
way. But when it comes to actually strategizing, I don't know if I'm any better or worse than
anyone.

Meghan Right. Right. So it's more you can...You can sort of float on your temperament
and your personality, right?

Jordan Yeah.

Meghan Maybe the planning is where you could do a little better.

Jordan Right, exactly. And that's where Vicki can hopefully help us out a little bit there.

Meghan All right. Great.

Jordan Victoria, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to The Upgrade.

Victoria Medvec Thank you for having me Jordan, and thank you for having me Meghan.
I'm so excited to be with the two of you today and talking to your listeners.

Jordan I am so glad to have you, too. And I want to start with some broader context here,
because personally, in the past, I did not have such a growth mindset when it came to
knowing how to negotiate and whether that was a skill that someone could actually learn. I
remember thinking back to a class that I was going to enroll in or potentially could have
enrolled in and grad school that was called negotiation and conflict management. And I
remember looking at that on the course offerings and thinking that this was just a money
grab. Like this is just sort of this silly sort of class where you're going to be trying to learn
things that are sort of ineffable. Like those are things that, in my opinion at the time, were
sort of natural, it'd be like teaching someone to be popular or teaching someone to be able
to be influential or something like that. And my perspective was that, you know, these are
sort of intangibles. These aren't really things that...You know you can't teach a very
unconfident person to suddenly be this bullish negotiator that's highly skilled. I now don't
have that opinion at all. So I want to hear from you. How do you how did you get to
become an expert in the field? And is negotiation something that a regular person can
learn? Can you go from being completely unskilled at this to being able to negotiate in all
areas of your life?

Victoria Medvec Great question, Jordan, then one of the things that I think your question
reveals is this, this supposition that people have that it's all about the style of how I
negotiate. And [00:05:23]I would actually argue that strategy trumps style. And then having

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the right strategies actually allows you to be much, much more effective. Some people are
incredibly confident and they approach negotiation as though their style and personality
will take the day and they often end up with worse outcomes, than more introverted,
quieter people who have the right strategy. [24.5s] So clearly, if I have the right personality
and I have the right strategy, I probably get a huge advantage. But [00:05:56]I would argue
that strategy trumps style and that people who have the right strategies are effective
regardless of their personality or style. [8.1s] So the book Negotiate Without Fear, really
talks about different strategies that you can deploy that are independent of your
personality, independent of your style. What strategy should you use? And the reality is
when you use the strategies, you're going to increase your effectiveness in all types of
negotiations. You mentioned negotiating in the everyday world, negotiating with the
customer, negotiate with the supplier, and then other big focal point is negotiating for
yourself, because I think a lot of people don't believe that they could go in and negotiate
for themselves and they're not confident in doing that. And that fear impedes them from
being effective. So what I wanted to do was to take the fear out of negotiations, regardless
of the type of negotiation they're encountering.

Jordan That is so interesting, because I think I do think of style when I think of negotiating,
I think of dealing with a car salesman, basically, that's my first thought.

Victoria Medvec Yeah. And I don't think that we want you to look like a car salesperson in
particular when you're negotiating with your employer, with the relationship matters a great
deal. We want you to have the right strategy to be able to build the relationship and
maximize your outcomes at the same time.

Meghan So before we talk about the right way to do this, I'm wondering what are some
common wrong ways? What are the ways that we're going into a negotiation, either from a
mindset perspective or a strategy perspective that is sort of shooting ourselves in the foot
before we even get started?

Victoria Medvec So the number one piece, Meghan, is having the wrong conversation.
And in fact, that's a trap that both novice negotiators encounter. But it's also the first of a
trap that expert negotiators encounter. So the book is really designed to help people at all
different levels. And it highlights traps that expert negotiators run into people who do this
every day. And everyone in that range falls into this one trap, which is a lot of times we
negotiate the wrong deal. We go in and we negotiate a single issue or we go in and we
only negotiate what is standard or typical to be discussed and we don't put the right issues
on the table. So this is, for example, when people will say the key, how do I negotiate my
salary? And I say, you should never be negotiating only your salary. It should be a
discussion about your employment engagement that has a lot of components to it, but not
just salary alone. So [00:08:36]I would argue that the number one thing that we make a
mistake about is we put the wrong issues on the table and not enough issues. The second
thing is that we often focus on ourselves. So we go to the table and we say, I want this
because I need this because I have to have it, as opposed to thinking about it and focusing
on addressing the other side's pressing business. And I argue that even in a one-shot
negotiation with the car salesperson or a negotiation in a grocery store or a negotiation in
a department store or a negotiation for yourself with your employer or in negotiation with
the customer, you should be very, very focused on addressing the other side's needs and
less focused on just what you want to get. And I would argue you will get more when you
begin by focusing on the other side rather than yourself. [52.7s]

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Jordan That is super useful, so we hear the fear is obviously a hindrance, being too
narrow is a hindrance. Being too focused on your own needs and not considering the
needs of the other person that you're speaking with is also a hindrance. What are some of
the things that are assets that people can bring into the conversation? Where do some
things that we sort of fail to consider that if we did consider them, we would be more
effective in our day-to-day negotiations?

Victoria Medvec So one of the things that I would say is a huge asset is to think creatively
about how you are uniquely positioned to address the other side's needs. So, for example,
if you're negotiating for yourself at work, what are some of your differentiators? How are
you uniquely positioned to help the employer with the problem? They have a talent that
they have, and a lot of times people would say, "well, that makes sense if I'm some super
senior person in the company, but I'm in an hourly and an hourly job, how do I have
differentiators?" And I have an example in the book of a high school student negotiating in
an ice cream shop using her differentiator. So I believe everybody has differentiators in our
roles and that we can leverage those to address the other side's needs. And I think that's a
critical part of one of our assets that helps us to be more successful.

Meghan I'm wondering how can we talk about how we negotiate in so many different
aspects of our lives, and as a parent, you know, there's a lot of negotiation that happens
with your kids almost from the very beginning. As soon as they can talk, they're negotiating
with you. So how can we use some of these principles? I'm thinking of trying to convince
the child that it's time to go to bed. How do you negotiate that? Because that does feel like
a singular issue, like I need you to go to bed right now. So how do we use those principles
to get our kids to kind of fall in line?

Victoria Medvec I love that question. I can so relate to it, Meghan, because I've been in
negotiations for a long time, but I've been a mother for 20 for about two boys. One is 24
and one is 20. And they began to negotiate long before they began to speak. [Inaudible] It
is constantly in negotiation. And one of the things I tried to teach my children is that the
world is highly negotiable and you can negotiate in almost every situation. But I would
always condition it: except with Mom. And so I said that the world is negotiable except with
me. But I do think that there are strategies that we discuss in the book that are really, really
helpful. And one of the ones I found most useful when I was raising my two sons is this
idea that people love choice. And so [00:12:14]instead of giving people sort of one
alternative, one option, to think about creating some choice in this situation really allows
the other side to feel like they're in control, even though you're really in control because
you're defining the choices. [16.9s] So when you think about bed, it might not be that I
need you to go to bed, it's do you want to read the story and then brush your teeth? Brush
your teeth, and then read the story or climb into bed and then read the story after you
brush your teeth? And so I can give you some options about what that looks like. And
essentially in all of them, you are brushing your teeth, reading a story and going to bed.
But I put it in three different ways. That makes the child feel like they have more control.
Are we reading the story in the rocker after I brush my teeth or before I brush my teeth or
brush my teeth, then climbing in bed, reading the story with mom or dad? [00:13:08]So the
reality is these options allow the other side to feel in control in the same way. Again,
though, when I go to negotiate with a customer or supplier or with my employer for myself,
I'm going to use options as well, because we find that when you give people three options
rather than one offer, you get better outcomes. [21.2s] And at the same time you build the
relationship with the other side so that the less than you can begin to teach your children
when they're little, you can use it to negotiate with your children when they're little and it
will help them for the rest of their life.

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Jordan How much should people take their personality into consideration? I know earlier
we were talking about strategy and style and the differences there, but I also think of a lot
of the negotiation rules that we've all just kicked up in life or that we've read on book
covers or in books like Never Split the Difference or whether you should put your cards on
the table first or wait for someone else to put their cards on the table so that you can
counter-offer like all of those types of things. Those are things that seem like
across-the-board rules. But I'm wondering how much people can cater their strategy, sort
of leaning on strategy instead of that style and take their personality into consideration,
whether they're that bullish or type of person or whether they're someone who's more
reserved or someone who's somewhere in between.

Victoria Medvec So some of those rules that you highlighted are absolute rules. So, for
example, [00:14:59]you do want to make the first offer. You want to get ready and
prepared. Understanding the weakness of the other side's alternatives so that you set the
right goal, that you will get a tremendous advantage from leading in a negotiation rather
than following. When I lead the starting point, when I lead, I set the table with the issues
that we're discussing when I lead and frame the discussion when I lead, I'm actually in the
relationship-enhancing position because I make an offer and build a rationale and you
have to react, respond to critique, get as opposed to me critiquing your offer. [34.8s] So for
all those reasons, there's a big advantage to leading and making is absolutely going to
want to lead. When she tells them to go to bed, it's not going to be, "when would you like
to go to bed?" It's "You're going to bed right now."

Meghan You're going.

Victoria Medvec To take advantage to creating that starting point, but, how I create this
starting point. And the way I conveyed the story is where my personality will come in. So
my personality will come in to the way the offer is delivered. [00:16:03]But the rule and the
strategy of going first with an offer that focuses on them, not you, and highlights how your
differentiators address their needs are the rules, the strategies that go across personality.
But the way it's delivered will absolutely take into account your personality. But I will say
that I think sometimes people who have a very outgoing personality and are very confident
in their interactions with others often don't spend enough time thinking about the strategy
so that they over-rely on personality to carry the negotiation. And I think arguably they end
up in some dangerous situations. So I think it's the combination that matters. But you can't
overlook the strategy. [48.5s]

Meghan I'm curious if, you know, going in that you're sort of not in a position of power if
you should approach a negotiation differently. And I'm thinking of the last time I bought a
car, I was buying a car that not only was the make and model very popular at the time, but
the color in particular that I wanted. And I knew going into that negotiation, like they don't
have to sell me this car because somebody else is going to walk in 10 minutes later and
buy the same one. So I'm curious how I should have approached that. If there's a different
strategy other than what we've talked about, that maybe would have helped me get a
better deal.

Victoria Medvec So you just uncovered the biggest source of power in any negotiation,
which is my best outside option. [00:17:34]So it's often referred to in negotiation lingo as
my BATNA, my Best Alternative to Negotiate the Agreement. But it's essentially in real
words for your listeners, plan B, option B, what am I going to do if I don't do this deal?
[14.9s] So it's very clear in your example that the challenge was you had fallen in love with

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that car. And you didn't have any other options! And that if I were helping you to buy a car,
I would say the number one rule of thumb is to go build options, find the other cars that
you might be willing to buy, if not that car. And the more I've narrowed it down and
restricted it to I have to have this one car in blue by five o'clock tonight, the worse my
power position is in that negotiation. And your example highlighted that there are really two
ideas of power that we do evaluate, which is what is my best outside option, my best
outside alternative. My Plan B is going to drive my bottom line, what we refer to as my
reservation point. But you also highlighted in your example that there is power and
understanding the other side's alternative. And the reason that your situation was not as
strong is not only that you didn't have an option, so you didn't have an attractive
reservation point, but you just highlighted that that car dealer had lots of options. Lots of
people were buying cars. It would be OK if the car dealer did not have very many options,
because even though I really wanted that car, I could still have a pretty ambitious goal if
the car dealer was really suffering from a lack of patrons, if there was the winter and no
one like to buy cars and there was no one on the showroom floor, I could have a much
more ambitious goal than if I walk into a crowded showroom where there are lots and lots
and lots of other customers, then my goal becomes less ambitious because I know they
have strong outside alternatives. [00:19:28]So it's always about my goal in a negotiation is
based on the weakness of the other side's alternatives. My bottom line is based on my
own alternatives. [9.4s] And what I would love for people to do is to work on both of those
to build your own alternative so you increase your biggest source of power and to set
ambitious goals by thinking about the weakness of the other side's alternatives.

Meghan How can we negotiate the holidays? I'm thinking of a married couple or long time
partners who have to decide where they're going to go for Thanksgiving, whose family
they're going to spend Christmas with, and that can be something that can be really
contentious over time if everybody's not on the same page. So how do we how do we
approach that? The extended family issue?

Jordan Yeah, interpersonal relationships. You can't just, like, walk away from the deal.

Victoria Medvec Absolutely. So these are more of a dispute where, as you said, Jordan,
you can't just walk away, right? I can't just walk away. We have to work it out. But one of
the things that your question reveals, Meghan, is that [00:20:33]in really close personal
relationships, a lot of times we actually do the worst job negotiating. We get outcomes that
leave a lot of money on the table. And the reason that happens is because we don't like
conflict in those close relationships. So we often will take the first acceptable solution
rather than seeking out the most optimal solution. So I would say two things. Number one,
think about multiple issues. So don't have a discussion about where we're going to spend
Thanksgiving, have a conversation about the calendar for the coming year, where it is
Thanksgiving, where is the Fourth of July? Where is Christmas or the New Year? Think
about the calendar for the year rather than the single holiday with the right issues on the
table. And then the second thing that I would say is create some options, different ways
that we might do it and explore those options with your spouse or significant other. So
don't go in with this single offer, but go in with a set of alternatives and talk through it.
[61.4s] That strategy is likely to reduce conflict and optimize your outcome, because the
worst thing that could happen is you're standing at some vacation destination where
nobody is happy to get here. And you're like, I thought you wanted to come here. And he's
like, I thought you wanted to be here. I just like nobody really wanted to be there. So you
want to make sure that you're sharing enough information and optimizing the outcome, not
just making the first acceptable solution. And always be careful and close relationships,

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because a lot of times we do end up with bad outcomes because we don't like the
exchange. So we cut it short and take that first acceptable alternative.

Jordan You also talk about the five F's of negotiation. Can you describe what those five
FS are? I really love these, all these acronyms...

Victoria Medvec I'm so happy that you read my book, Jordan! You're right, in Negotiate
Without Fear, I do talk about the five Fs. So I talk about getting ready in the early chapters
and then I say, once you're ready, you go to the table. You want to think about five Fs that
will make you a fearless negotiator. [00:22:45]What are those five Fs? Number one, we
want to go in and we want to go First. We want to Focus on them. So we have to go first.
We'll to focus on them. We want to Frame our offer correctly. So if we are thinking that we
want to get the other side to do something, to do something different, move off the status
quo, we might want to frame more loss language and what we want to maintain the status
quo and maintain what people are currently doing, we might want to highlight more gain
language. Loss language is language like risk threat, competitive pressure, vulnerability,
exposure. Whereas gain language are words like value, value propositions, savings,
increase, enhance, improve benefits, advantages. So we want to go first. We want to focus
on them myself, focus on that, be a pronoun checker, make sure it's all about them, not
about you. Check your pronoun. So go first, focus on them, frame the offer correctly, and
then we want to make sure that the fourth that is be Flexible. [62.9s] We want to do two
things. Maybe we give them multiple offers and we always leave ourselves room to
concede because when we can see people are happier with the agreement that we ended
and so go first, focus on them, frame the offer correctly, be flexible. [00:24:07]And the fifth
step is very important. No feeble offers. Too often people go in and they people ask. It's
like I'm in a department store and I see a shirt that has a bag and I say, Could you take
something off? That's a feeble offer, make it clear specific ask. Go to that person at the at
the counter and say, oh, do you see the bag? That's really unfortunate. I'm sure you're not
going to be able to solve this shirt. You're going to have to just return it and then you won't
be able to make any commission on that. You know what? I would take it off your hands.
Give me a 30 percent discount, OK? That's a clear, specific number. [36.3s] So you want
to go first, you want to focus on them. You want to frame your off request. You want to be
flexible and no people offer. [00:24:52]Those five Fs help you to be a fearless negotiator,
and that's what the book is designed to do, to take the fear out of negotiation, allow you to
be effective and allows you to negotiate well, in every different situation you might
encounter, [15.7s] whether it's with your children, with your spouse, with a car dealer, with
the person at a store, with a customer or with the supplier or importantly, negotiating for
yourself with your own employer.

Jordan I love the feeble one. Fortune favors the bold. I love that.

Victoria Medvec I know. I know. No feeble offers. I think so often people make people ask.
And this is not just novices that make people ask people who will go into a negotiation with
a customer and they'll say, could we have a better shelf space? They'll say to a supplier,
could we get a better price? Those are people ask if you want to make clear specific
offers.

Meghan I have definitely said the, "Can you take something off?" So many times in my life.
Just 30 percent I should have been asking for!

Victoria Medvec Change those words and make the ask for what you want. And you
could even make that in the context of multiple offers, like could you take 30 percent off of

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this? Or if I took this and that, could you give me a 40 percent discount? That would be a
great way to use multiple offers and a clear specific ask.

Meghan So then just by way of kind of wrapping up, how do we know when a negotiation
is over? Maybe you haven't reached the point that you want. Maybe you feel like it's just
been going on too long. You're not getting anywhere. How do you know when it's done?

Victoria Medvec Great question. And one of the things I would say is that people pay a
price for certainty. Everybody has a price. They pay for certainty to get the deal closed.
And some of us pay a bigger price for certainty and some of us pay a smaller price for
certainty. And that really relates to a theme in the book, which is about fear. People have
this fear of damaging the relationship or a fear of losing the deal or a fear of the other side
walking away. And so is there in the negotiation because of that fear, they might pay a
price to just close it right now. And [00:27:05]I think that one of the things we want to
recognize is that we all have a different price we will pay for certainty in different situations.
If I really like the house and I told you that never fall in love with the House and have other
alternatives, but you really like that house. At some point you may accept their counteroffer
rather than continuing to push. And you have to get comfortable with that. I actually like to
talk about it as the price I paid for certainty so that I recognize I'm controlling, that I decide
what is the price I want to pay to get this close. Now, maybe it's because I really like it and
I don't feel like I have a strong other option. Maybe it's because my time is valuable and I
don't want to waste any more time on it. But I think that the more you think about it as what
price are you willing to pay for certainty, the better you feel about closing the deal at some
point, recognizing you might not have gotten everything, but you're very happy with where
you are and you're willing to pay that price for certainty and get it close. [53.7s]

Jordan Victoria, thank you so much for joining us. This has been absolutely amazing.

Meghan Thank you so much.

Victoria Medvec Thank you very, very much.

Jordan Now it's time for Upgrade of the Week, where we talk about that one thing that's
making a big difference in our lives. And I want to start with you, Victoria. What's your
upgrade this week?

Victoria Medvec My upgrade is actually an upgrade I've been following for a few weeks
and in fact, a few months. It really came through the pandemic. So in the pandemic, one of
the things that I found is that it was really hard to carve out time for myself and to make
sure that I was working out and I couldn't go to the gym and I couldn't see people. And so I
was finding it really, really hard to do that. So I found some online classes and I have been
working out. I've been taking a barre class five times a week by a Zoom, and that has
totally changed my life. It's made me stronger, but it's also allowed me to feel better about
myself and to see that I'm giving time to myself. And so as we're faced with the pandemic
and situations are becoming complex, again, I would encourage everyone to find their
favorite form of exercise. But to ensure that if it involves taking a class that you don't think
because I can't go to the gym, I can't take a class. I found great barre classes on Zoom
and have been enjoying them every single day.

Jordan I love that. And I love that you've been able to be consistent with it. That's the
hardest part, is just the consistency for me.

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Victoria Medvec Exactly. Exactly.

Jordan What about you, Meghan? Meghan, once you upgrade this week?

Meghan OK, so I have a 10 year old who is about to become an 11 year old next month.
And with that comes more toys, more more Legos, more books, more everything. And so
when I started doing—it's never enough. And then Christmas is a couple of months later
and it's just more stuff. So what I have started doing is rather than allowing these birthdays
and holidays and other gift giving events to come and inundate us with toys and then look
at this pile of stuff and wonder, what am I going to do? I get ahead of it now. And we do a
big purge every year around this time so that when the new stuff does come in, it's not as
overwhelming. Plus, we can see what we already have. We can see, you know, maybe
other needs or other wants that he has. And it's not so...It's just not so much all at once.
And so his room feels nice and cleared out. I'm sure it's only going to stay that way for a
month, but I feel really good about it.

Jordan That is great to hear. I love—you know I love a good purge. I love minimalism and
getting rid of as much as possible.

Meghan Yes. And I'm and I'm putting and I'm really trying to limit this year how much will
be coming in. So I want more to have gone out than is going to come back in. That is the
goal.

Jordan Yes, yes.

Meghan Yes. Fewer Legos. Doesn't need anything, he's got enough.

Victoria Medvec And when all that goes out, it can help other kids. That's a great thing
about these purges is giving toys to other kids who might not have as much as your son
does.

Meghan Yeah. And he loves that. He loves that component of it. He always feels good
about it. He never has a problem going through and donating things because he knows
he's got more than most and so he's happy to get as well. Jordan, what about you? What's
your upgrade?

Jordan Mine is also sort of purge-related, but mine is going to be a digital purge. So I've
done recently what I do every, I don't know, six to twelve months or so where I just do an
audit of the apps that I downloaded on my phone and delete the ones that I haven't used
in the past year. And I've just done this recently. There was a E reader app that I realized
that I haven't used in a long time. There were two subway apps that are not subway the
restaurant, but Subway in New York, apps that I figured out that I like. I only need one of
them. I was comparing them a long time ago and one of them just, you know, you get blind
to the apps on your phone because you just scroll, or at least I do. I just scroll through
them all the time and find the ones that I'm looking for. But if I actually look at them one by
one for a minute and figure out, like, how I use this in the past year, then I get rid of so
many of them. I like deleted Clubhouse because I had never used it. Any app that has
been sitting that I could either delete or also request for them to delete my data, then I just
take a chunk of time. It takes like fifteen minutes to do them all and go through all my
apps, delete the ones that I don't need because they just drain your battery and track you.
So there's no reason to have them.

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 Air Date: 8/9/21
Meghan No redeeming qualities.

Jordan There are no redeeming qualities of apps that you don't use that just sit on your
phone. So get rid of them every now and then and your battery will last longer. Your home
pages will be less cluttered and it's just a freeing feeling.

Meghan Love it.

Victoria Medvec So I have to tell you, I learned from both of your upgrades for the week,
so thank you for that information that motivates me to do two things: purge my house and
purge my phone. So that's been really helpful.

Jordan Yes. That's what we're here for, you gave us a lot of information, it would only be
right that we try to give you something.

Meghan Something.

Victoria Medvec Very fair. Very fair. Thank you for that.

Jordan And that's our show, The Upgrade is produced by MicaelaHeck Hecht and mixed
by Brad Fisher.

Meghan Please rate us on Apple Podcasts and leave us to review so others can find the
show. You can also reach us by calling three, four, seven, six eight seven eight one zero
nine and leaving a voicemail or write to us at Upgrade at Lifehacker dot com.

Jordan You can and should find us on Twitter at Lifehacker. On Instagram, at Lifehacker
dot com. That's all one word. On Facebook at Facebook, dot com slash Lifehacker. You
can also find me on Twitter at Jordan M Calhoun Meghan at Meghan Walbert. And you can
sign up for Lifehacker's daily newsletter full of tips and tricks and facts at Lifehacker dot
com slash newsletter. You can find show notes for this and every episode of the upgrade
by going to Lifehacker dot com and searching for podcasts.

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