Traveling Board Members’ Knowledge of Ukrainian Culture

Robert F LeSueur

George Mason University

EDUC 872, Spring 2019

 Historically, Ukraine inherited a system that segregates and institutionalizes

people with disabilities from a young age as both a societal and education model from

the Soviet system (Bondar, 2014). All children born with disabilities or later discovered

to have learning difficulties were moved into boarding schools, away from both their

parents and society. Remnants of this old system still are prevalent. The movement

towards a more inclusive society and schools started in 1990 along with Ukraine’s

independence (Grynova & Kalinichenko, 2018).

Education for students with disabilities in Ukraine is evolving towards a more

inclusive model (Grynova & Kalinichenko, 2018), including revisions in legislation. The

original legislation for desegregated, inclusive education was passed in 2013, but was

little more than a requirement with no guidelines on implementation or penalties for

noncompliance. The requirements for inclusion have increased since 2014 when the

cause was selected by Maryna Poroshenko as her special project as Ukraine’s First

Lady (Office of the President of Ukraine, 2015). This development of special education

is largely supported by nongovernmental organizations (NGO) from the United States

(US).

Ukraine Special Needs Orphanages Fund (USNOF) is an example of an US

NGO that provides education and information to support this development. They work

in the western region of the country directly supporting the education of at least four

oblasts, administrative subsets similar to states in the US. Most of the individuals that

lead the organization in this endeavor are only able to travel to Ukraine once a year for

a short-time period. This is due to the several reasons, but mostly is due to professional

and personal obligations of these individuals in the US. Cost and time of travel between
the East Coast of the US and the oblasts of work in Ukraine. On average, it takes a full

day to make this trip each direction. Several of these leaders also serve on the board of

directors for the organization and collectively belong to a subset titled traveling board

members. As leaders, they are looked to for answers from both American group

members and Ukrainian colleagues. The purpose of this study is to examine the

understanding of these traveling board members of Ukrainian educational culture and

their approach in communicating with their Ukrainian colleagues.

The outcomes of this pilot study will aid in my consultation and communication

with the other board members in the organization. Additionally, other US NGOs ask for

consultation on the Ukrainian special education system from me. The outcomes of this

study will highlight the needs and understanding of intercultural competence (IC) as it

relates to Ukraine by USNOF. The findings can be extrapolated to improve how I

communicate the IC needs to my organization and the organizations that ask for advice.

Additionally, it will show the strengths and gaps within USNOF as an US-based NGO

working within the Ukrainian educational system.

Literature Review

Ukrainian Education System for Students with Disabilities

Ukraine inherited an exclusionary education based on social and disability

inequality from the Soviet Union upon gaining independence in 1991 (Bondar, 2014).

Ukraine has strived and struggled to restructure this system into a system that is more

inclusive (Raver, 2007b). The road to a more inclusive education for students with

disabilities in Ukraine has been long and filled with challenges (Stepaniuk, 2018). The

primary cited challenge has been societal norms that have effected teacher and school
administrators’ desires to accept students with disabilities in their classrooms and

schools (Fedorova, 2014; Loreman et al., 2016; Rybchenko & Ostrovskii, 2015). As an

example of these challenge, in Raver's (2007a) study, it was found that students with

physical disabilities attending a university in Ukraine felt less comfortable discussing

their disability with faculty. They also felt that their need for accommodation would not

be received well or honored when requested.

In Ukraine, parents of children with disabilities and self-advocates (primarily

those with physical impairment) have led a charge for both societal and educational

changes towards more inclusion of people with disabilities in these settings. Since the

Euromaidan, there has been an increase of charitable participation. This increase has

also charities that are promoting inclusion of people with disabilities in society and

education (Lyadneva, 2017). Many of these charities are collaborating with international

NGOs. One study (Loreman et al., 2016) found that these collaborations were positive

and had good results. Additionally, this study cited the need for Ukrainian leadership in

these partnerships, but also the need to develop a common understanding among

colleagues from different places.

IC in International NGOs in Education

With this increase in charitable work and collaboration with international NGOs,

there is an increased focus on developing IC (Bennett, 2009). Global statements, such

as the UNESCO Salamanca Statement, which 92 governments agreed that all children

with disabilities needed to be educated, have created an international dialogue about

education for people with disabilities, including inclusion (United Nations Educational,
Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), 1994). This collaboration demands

more IC.

There are some special considerations that must be taken by educators that

travel outside of their culture into a target culture to exchange ideas and promote

education. In many of these exchanges, there is an assumption of a “West as Expert

model” (Rapoport, 2006). However, this attitude is not often received well and does not

build an aura of collaboration. This belief can contribute to a power dynamic in favor of

the more Western society and not allow for the self-growth of the colleagues of the

target culture (Shallenberger, 2015). It is with this in mind that framed the desired

outcomes in learning from this pilot study.

Methods

Overview and Design

A qualitative phenomenological approach was used in this pilot study.

Phenomenology is a qualitative methodology with the aim of describing a shared

experience of a specific population through the descriptions of the participants. The

purpose of which is to identify commonalities within the experiences of several

individuals (Schwandt, 2007). In the case of this pilot study, I explored the learning that

has taken place in travelling board members in their knowledge of Ukrainian education

system and the communication with their Ukrainian colleagues during executing the

mission of the NGO that they represent. Specifically, I examined the knowledge gained

through experience and the existing knowledge gaps due to the short-term exposures

over several years.

Sampling and Participants

 This pilot study used convenience sampling. All three participants had a

professional relationship with myself as they all serve alongside me on the board of our

NGO. Additionally, I have a personal relationship with each of the participants, as they

are all close friends or relatives. While convenience was the primary means of

obtaining these participants, there were aspects of criterion sampling that were used.

All the participants had travelled to Ukraine on more than eight trips, had a lasting and

ongoing relationship with the organization and Ukrainian colleagues, all had been

involved in planning and leading trips in Ukraine, and all had a background in education

that they utilized in their work within Ukraine. All the participants had lived in the same

small rural town at one point and began traveling together to Ukraine during that time

period (early 2000s).

Data Collection

I developed a semi-structured interview protocol and submitted this protocol for

review and feedback to an expert in the field of IC. Following feedback, I improved the

protocol by clarifying questions and adding follow-up questions to several items on the

protocol (See Appendix A). I conducted each of the interviews using video conferencing

software with each of the three participants individually. All the interviews were

audiotaped for use in transcription. The interview protocol began with the participants

explaining their role in the NGO and included questions about their knowledge of the

Ukrainian education system and how they interact with their Ukrainian colleagues.

Probes and follow-up questions were used to clarify answers and persuade more

detailed responses. Using the recordings, verbatim transcripts were generated for use
in analysis (See Appendices B, C, and D). All the interviews were conducted over one

weekend at the convenience of the participant.

Data Analysis

After transcriptions for each of the three interviews were completed, I read over

them twice to familiarize myself with the collected data. On the first read-through of the

transcriptions, I listened to the audio recording to ensure accuracy and be able to make

notes about tone of the speaker. After the completion of the initial read-throughs, I

began open coding each of the transcriptions. Once all the transcripts were open

coded, I used axial coding to cluster the open codes. After axial coding, I grouped key

axial codes into initial themes which are presented later in this paper.

Findings

In this section, I will present a sampling of the initial axial codes. Each of the

axial codes will be supported by select quotes from the data.

Figure 1
Axial Codes with Supporting Direct Quotes
Axial Codes Supporting Quotes
Having a Role  “I've always had a love for vacation Bible school, so I fell into that
spot because it combined, you know, my love of sports and
teaching games to the kids, but also sharing the Bible skills that I
have.”
 “I looked at myself as in, in leadership as a fundraiser. Um, a
spokesperson, I had the story, I had the, was an educator. I also
had a daughter who, two daughters who had down syndrome. One
was adopted from Ukraine and was a Ukrainian citizen.”
 “I was considered the person on the board, uh, that had direct
experience as a special educator.”
 “my role has been to share what I know about early childhood
special education and working with children with disabilities, as well
as working as and sharing my experience as a parent, I have a
 child with a disability, with the professionals and parents in Ukraine.
Connecting to  “The initial people that were involved in the board, or i- and involved
the Story of the with, with developing the organization actually, we're all people that
NGO lived right here in the, in the immediate neighborhood.”
 “And so I told, my role was to tell my story. Both with, both in
organizations and churches and with people here in um, um my
community across Virginia. Um to, to rally volunteers.”
 “But then we moved to Virginia in 2002, and happened to land next
door to the [founder] who run Ukraine Special Needs Orphanage
Fund”
Making  “The key is developing relationships”
Relationships  “we have had very good translators who have become a part of the
mission”
 “moving through multiple regions to make connections with key
um, key university personnel. Um, some legislators in different
regions and centers that are also nonprofit. And um, and some
public school system to look ahead towards um, a strong,
developing a stronger partnership and future conferences.”
 “we've visited many times, they're like family. Interact with them like
family.”
 “we've known one another for so long it's like family that we can
interact without using words.”
 “we've visited many times, they're like family. Interact with them like
family.”
 “we've known one another for so long it's like family that we can
interact without using words.”
Cultural  “No, I think, I mean, I've been prepared.”
Orientation  “[The orientation] was probably very ineffective after going to
Ukraine”
 “some of those things made me on that trip, very much mistrust
Ukrainians and feel that they were that there wasn't any
consistency in the country or in the government system. That there
wasn't a sense of justice and fairness. That there was corruption.”
 “I was expecting everyone to want bribes of us”
 “having seen the pictures out of Romania I expected the orphanage
to be that horrible”
 “afraid that somebody was going to take ahold of me, and, and try
to take my passport and, and, and throw me into some kind of
prison or something”
Building Trust  “if we had a relationship with these officials, if they knew what we
were capable of doing, what we could provide and what we
couldn't, if we were just honest about, what, what our intent was
and if we came back and provided what we could that they began
to trust us.”
  “then we had people that we trusted that had worked with us who
were Ukrainians for many years.”
 “we were beginning to connect with an early intervention center
called Pahinets. That was sort of our landmark project”
 “When they're with the admin they say one thing or act one way,
and when the admin isn't around they say and do a different thing.”
Ukrainian  “Yet, there were many parents who wanted to keep their children
Heroes and who were pioneers in advocating for positive change to get
services and um, and education for their kids.”
 “I guess another cultural misstep […] was my own ignorance [...]
that when we came to do an educational conference, that we were
the ones that had all of the information to impart. And that that
would be received that way.
 “It's interesting 'cause again, they don't people that are trained by
the universities in special education, but it's amazing what these
teachers and parents have learned by studying on the, on the web.
And also some of them have traveled, to Holland or to, I think some
of them went to Germany as well, and, and what they've learned ...
And, and going to conferences such as the ones we've put on to
learn everything they can to work with the children, it's, it's very
impressive.”
Savior Complex  “Um, well, thanks to USNOF and other people that are eager to
help out, it has gotten a lot better…”
 “Thanks to USNOF the eyes have been opened up and, people
realize that kids with disabilities could be educated.”
Learning from  “we have always been very respectful of their therapy programs.
Others We learned very early on that they have a lot going on with
massage and hydrotherapy.”
 “He even gave me some advice when I was there about the
direction of my dissertation. And um, was very interested in talking
about the research that we were doing”
 “They have, um, very rich developmental programs from three to
seven years old. Um, that if they just do a lot, a lot with their culture,
and, and they do a lot of music activities and dance, and they do a
lot with, um, with play, and they do a lot of art, um, they don't do
any, they don't reading instruction.”
 “they're doing some very innovative cool things”
 “I've learned there's always more to learn”
Collaborating  “then they can, you know, go on and go back to their school and
teach their peers.”
 “I think they would be happy to have us there 365 days a year”
 “they very much want to see how I do things and are excited about
it. Um, I've learned things from them, uh, and, and how they
approach certain things, um, late.”
  “Educational conferences where our organization can collaborate
with um, with their efforts and also where we can expand our
resources um, with our universities here.”
 “And, it is and honor to be a part, um, to have partnered with them
and to have um, to have learned so much from them over the
years.”
Problems in  “I usually ask Rob LeSueur about this question because I have
One Person never visited the school while it is session”
Being the  “[Lilly] and Rob LeSueur know a lot more about how this is working
Expert in other regions”
 “Um, as far as the special needs individuals, um, the last time I
don't know how high it's going up to, the last it was like third grade.”
System of  “My understanding early one was that children with disabilities were
Special um educated probably have some life skills in the rehab centers
Education that were not a part of the, um of the public school system”
 “we encountered a school system that had a pilot program going on
at a couple of schools and they had a few children who had
disabilities and they were in an inclusive classroom”
 “Special education is a very new concept, uh, and when I say new
it's new in, in less than in 20 years. There was basically nothing
when we first started going to Ukraine, at that point children with
disabilities were either hidden away or they were in the institutions.”
Cultural  “We did a vacation Bible school with gypsy students, um, gypsy
Mistakes kids, um, it's a very populated with gypsies.”
 “Oh, I mean as far as theirs, I mean, in the Ukraine”
 “So I think that was a cultural misstep, we took that as her being oh,
unreasonable, and that she was somehow gonna use these some
other way than with the children.”
 “It was kind of pushed on us, uh, sometimes by some of the
translators I believe that we were expected, uh, to participate in
drinking”
 “The sign that I had done in Ukrainian [...] it's quite similar to giving
somebody the middle finger”
 “one of our biggest challenges in doing a, in doing a conference
and planning a conference was making sure the people that we
brought to present thousands of miles, were able to present what
they came to do.”
Autism  “they are eager to hear about autism”
 “At that point nobody was even talking about autism, that just was
not something that was talked about”
 “they were going to put some children with autism into public
schools.”
Cultural  “so had to rely on public transportation. That was a new adventure
Differences with their little vans and all that.”
  “We've learned on our many trips to Ukraine that, um, time, a 9:00
meeting may be they show up at 9:30, 10:00. It's just, you know.
And you just learn to roll with it and just go, and deal with it.”
 “there's a different feeling towards drinking than we generally have
here in the United States, and definitely a different feeling towards
drinking than the group”
 “we heard our children called imbeciles when they were, we all had
children with down syndrome. And um, then we heard that
terminology used.”
 “there is a belief in Ukraine by many parents that it's a curse if you
have a child who has down syndrome.”

Analysis

Upon examining the axial codes, several key initial themes emerged. Some axial

codes had an importance and uniqueness that made it important to remain as initial

themes. Other initial themes were built out of the combination of one or more axial

codes. The initial themes are developing relationships, willingness to learn, heroes of

Ukraine versus saviors from the outside, intercultural mistakes happen, bad cultural

orientation is worse than no orientation, and the importance of having a role and

connecting to the purpose of the NGO. Each of these themes will be discussed further.

Developing Relationships

The axial codes of collaborating and building trust were combined with making

relationships into the developing relationships initial theme. This theme was present

and held in importance by each of the three participants. Participants discussed the

need for relationships in creating impact as an NGO and furthering the cause. They felt

making both friendships and professional partnerships with their Ukrainian colleagues

built a foundation that allowed better communication and teamwork.

Willingness to Learn
 Two of the three participants discussed the various things that they had learned

directly from interacting with Ukrainian colleagues that they use in their professional

lives in the United States. Professional learnings included various therapy techniques

and the importance of play in development of children. Specific to work within the NGO,

these participants learned that collaboration in planning with Ukrainian colleagues

allows for building trust and encouraging greater learning from each other. Additionally,

all three discussed important cultural differences that they had learned throughout their

time in Ukraine. These included differences in societal views in drinking and of people

with disabilities.

Heroes of Ukraine versus Saviors from the Outside

Two participants focused primarily on the roles of Ukrainians in creating change

within their system. These two talked about how the role of the NGO should be to

support and encourage these individuals. The third participant focused instead on the

role of the NGO in creating these changes and minimized the roles of their Ukrainian

colleagues.

The first two focused on the collaborative nature of creating and encouraging this

change of societal mindset (inclusion of people with disabilities) that is the mission of

this NGO. They highlight that they are only there for a short period of time and the need

for the Ukrainians that do this work every day is what is creating the actual change. The

third individual takes on more of a savior complex and sees herself and the NGO as

directly responsible for the changes that have occurred.

Intercultural Mistakes Happen

 Across all three participants, it became apparent that cultural mistakes occur in

the international workspace due to differences in culture between the people interacting.

It also became apparent that how one handles these mistakes and then learning from

them is what matters most in the collaborative field.

Two participants shared specific stories from their years in Ukraine about times

when they or the NGO as a group had made mistakes. These stories included not only

the actual mistake that was made, but also included how the NGO or individual handled

the mistake with their Ukrainian colleagues. The handling of mistakes included

apologizing and adding further ability to collaborate. Both participants indicated that

both these forms of handling the situation helped alleviate the impact of the mistakes.

Often the long-term learning that occurred and the changes that were made by the

individual and the NGO were included in these accounts. The NGO had made

orientational and planning changes to address some of the mistakes. Interestingly, the

one participant that could not identify a cultural mistake in her past made two cultural

mistakes in language use that are of large impact in our field of work.

Bad Cultural Orientation is Worse than No Orientation

Two of the participants talked about the orientation that they received prior to

traveling to Ukraine. Both participants received training from the same person at

different times. They were each only able to recall feeling like their safety was in

jeopardy in Ukraine and that they would have to give bribes or gifts to everyone they

interacted with during their travel. Both discussed quickly realizing that this takeaway

was not an accurate portrayal of reality. They highlighted these concerns as existing,

but to nowhere near the extent that they had been prepared for by their orientations.
The third participant received orientation from a different source. She, in contrast, had a

different experience and felt safe and prepared when travelling. These three

experiences highlight the need for cultural orientation and intercultural competency

training. Additionally, it shows that the impacts of bad cultural orientation are

detrimental and can create fear and mistrust of the target culture.

Importance of Role and Purpose

All three participants highlight the need they fill for the organization. They frame

their experience within these roles. They assign importance to these roles that they fill.

Additionally, all three participants implicitly or explicitly discuss their connection and the

connections of other key players in the NGO to the core story and purpose of the NGO.

It seems that for this particular organization that a lasting person in the organization

needs to understand their role and the importance of their participation in the mission to

maintain this association. The connection to the purpose is also a key aspect of

belonging in this NGO.

Discussion/Reflection

I was lucky that in this pilot study I was able to examine the work that is closest to

my heart. My life’s work is directly tied to the work of USNOF and I often am trying to

improve myself and the organization. This study allowed me new insight and a different

approach to making these improvements.

I was able to see that these colleagues see me as having the role of knowledge

of both Ukraine’s culture and educational system. I have had more of an opportunity to

be in country for longer periods of time and throughout the year instead of just during

the summer. This has given me a unique role within the organization of having wider
knowledge of our field of work. I had thought I had been sharing in a way that my

colleagues could learn directly from my experiences. I hoped that the information that I

had shared with them was being absorbed. Personally, I feel that it is next to

impossible to adequately teach and collaborate with our Ukrainian colleagues without at

least a foundational understanding of their system, history, and culture. I had thought

that I had stressed this importance to my colleagues. I need to focus more on sharing

this information with my colleagues and assist them in learning.

I found a few things that were of personal concern through this study. First was

that our early cultural orientations were severely flawed. They have evolved since the

early 2000s, but I am concerned that some of what was being taught early on is

embedded in, at least, the volunteers that have not continued travelling to Ukraine. This

woefully flawed orientation that left volunteers fearful for their safety and viewing all

Ukrainians as corrupt has probably forever tainted the views towards Ukrainian society

for some early volunteers and in turn the people in which they share this perspective.

Second, it was concerning to hear the two cultural language mistakes from the

one participant. She is a long-time leader and board member. We have had several

discussions over the years about both of these particular mistakes. I feel this highlights

the need for even long-time volunteers and leaders to continue IC trainings.

Through this project, I was able to interview three people who are very close to

me. It added another layer of complexity to the interview process. The familiarity with

the participants made it easy to jump right into the interview with an established rapport

and an ease of mind. However, I had to be constantly mindful of how much I may have

been leading the conversation. There were distinctly times that I felt that I knew exactly
what the person I was interviewing should be saying or that they were leaving

something out. Most importantly, these interviews sparked new discussion among the

four of us and new ideas for future growth emerged from all of use as a result. This

highlights a need for more continuous dialogue among the leaders. Additionally, the

ability for deeper, less planning-type conversations are helpful in creating this type of

energy.

Conclusions/Recommendations

This pilot study explored the cultural and educational understanding of three

travelling board members through their experiences and perspectives. This exploration

revealed some needs within this particular organization, but also some needs that may

be more universal to NGOs that work outside their personal culture. It should the

damaging effects of poorly designed and implemented training or orientation programs.

It also showed the importance of building strong relationships with people in the target

culture.

Based on the results of this study, there are recommendations for changes to the

organization that all the participants belong. These recommendations are vital to the

continued success of the organization in fulfilling its missions. First, relationship

building and collaborative work should become the primary focus of the leaders in the

organization. The more strong, lasting relationships that we have with Ukrainian

colleagues from a variety of backgrounds the more impactful the work that we do in

Ukraine. The relationships also improve our knowledge of the entirety of the problem

that we aim to address. In this same vein of thinking, we should continue to explore the

field of special education and disability outside of the regions in which we have focused
our work thus far. Second, we have to improve our cultural orientations to better

prepare our volunteers for working in Ukraine and how to best communicate with their

Ukrainian colleagues. This includes stressing that we must come as partners, not

saviors. The savior mentality is not only offensive, but because it is not received well by

our Ukrainian colleagues it creates conflict, ruins relationships, and potentially ruins the

message and teaching that was the purpose of our travel.

 References

Bennett, J. M. (2009). Cultivating intercultural competence. In D. K. Deardorff (Ed.), The

Sage handbook of intercultural competence (pp. 121–140). Thousand Oaks,

Calif: SAGE Publications, Inc.

Bondar, T. (2014). Ukraine: Current tendencies in inclusion. American Journal of

Educational Research, American Journal of Educational Research, 2, 22–27.

https://doi.org/10.12691/education-2-12B-5

Fedorova, Y. (2014). Cultivation of special needs students’ citizenship as the basis in

the aspiration of Ukraine to European integration. Comparative Professional

Pedagogy, 4, 69–75. https://doi.org/10.2478/rpp-2014-0022

Grynova, M., & Kalinichenko, I. (2018). Trends in inclusive education in the USA and

Canada. Comparative Professional Pedagogy, 8, 28–34.

https://doi.org/10.2478/rpp-2018-0016

Loreman, T., McGhie-Richmond, D., Kolopayvea, A., Tarenchenko, O., Mazin, D.,

Crocker, C., & Petryshyn, R. (2016). A Canada-Ukraine collaborative initiative for

introducing inclusive education for children with disabilities in Ukraine: Participant

perspectives. School Effectiveness & School Improvement, 27, 24–44.

https://doi.org/10.1080/09243453.2015.1018912

Lyadneva, A. V. (2017). The practice of charitable interventions of building an inclusive

educational environment. Практика Благодійних Інтревенцій у Розбудові

Інклюзивного Простору, (121), 136–138.

Office of the President of Ukraine. (2015, October 1). Maryna Poroshenko: The level of

inclusion in education is an indicator of the state development degree [Press

 Release]. Retrieved October 8, 2018, from

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/marina-poroshenko-riven-inklyuziyi-v-

osviti-pokaznik-stupeny-36072

Rapoport, A. (2006). Beware of Greeks? Some aspects of intercultural communication

in international training programs for educators. Intercultural Education, 17, 179–

194. https://doi.org/10.1080/14675980600693889

Raver, S. A. (2007a). Comparison of attitudes regarding university inclusion among

students with disabilities in the United States and Ukraine. Journal of

International Special Needs Education, 10, 13–21.

Raver, S. A. (2007b). The Emergence of inclusion for students with disabilities in

Ukraine. International Journal of Special Education, 22, 32–38.

Rybchenko, L., & Ostrovskii, I. (2015). Peculiarities of inclusive education of ASD

children in Ukraine. “Journal of Education Culture and Society” 2, 229-239.

https://doi.org/10.15503/jecs20152.229.239

Schwandt, T. A. (2007). The SAGE Dictionary of Qualitative Inquiry (3rd edition). Los

Angeles, Calif: SAGE Publications, Inc.

Shallenberger, D. (2015). Learning from our mistakes: International educators reflect.

Frontiers: The Interdisciplinary Journal of Study Abroad, 26, 248–263.

Stepaniuk, I. (2018). Inclusive education in Eastern European countries: A current state

and future directions. International Journal of Inclusive Education, 23, 328–352.

https://doi.org/10.1080/13603116.2018.1430180
United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). (1994).

The Salamanca Statement and Framework for Action on Special Needs

Education. Salamanca, Spain.

 Appendix A

Interview Protocol

1. Tell me about your role in USNOF.

1. How did you come into this role?

2. Did you have any background that aided in taking this role?

b. How long have you been traveling to Ukraine?

1. What was you experience with Ukraine before travelling?

b. Tell me about a memorable misstep in culture from while you were in Ukraine.

How did you handle this misstep?

c. What is your understanding of the education/ special education system within

Ukraine?

d. How does this differ/similar to the system in the United States that you are

familiar with?

e. Tell me about how you interact with your Ukrainian colleagues.

f. Have you had challenges that you have had or overcame in working with

Ukrainian colleagues? Can you give an example of one of these times?

g. What have you learned from your experiences in Ukraine? Please share some

specific examples.
 Appendix B

Lilly’s Interview

Rob: ... can get the transcription done.

Lilly: Oh, you decided just to do it, uh, this way?

Rob: Yeah, I'm gonna do it audio ... Or like it worked for Katherine, so it'll work
for this.

Lilly: Okay.

Rob: All right, so, um, question number one is can you tell me about your role
within USNOF?

Lilly: Um, well, I sit on the board of USNOF, um, I was with the first group that
ever went over even before we were incorporated in, eh, as ...
Incorporated, is that the word I wanna use? Uh, well, before we actually
had the organization of USNOF I was amongst the three people that went
over the first time. Um, I am an early childhood special education teacher,
and my role has been to share what I know about early childhood special
education, and, and working with children with disabilities, as well as
working as and sharing my experience as a parent, I have a child with a
disability, with the, uh, professionals and parents in Ukraine.

Rob: Uh-huh (affirmative), all right. And how did you come into this role?

Lilly: Um, well, I was ... Uh, uh, it, with it being a grassroots organization it
started right here in the center of Fork Union. The initial people that were
involved in the board, or i- and involved with, with developing the
organization actually, we're all people that lived right here in the, in the
immediate neighborhood. Um, Katherine who, who, [last name], who
founded the organization, um, was my, i- is, was my neighbor, and is one
of my very closest friends, um, and I was considered the, at the time I was
considered the person on the board, uh, that had direct experience as a
special educator.

Rob: Okay. M- How long have you been traveling to Ukraine?

Lilly: Well, let's see. The first year we went was the year Anna turned three, the
year she turned three was the first year we went, um, and, so she will be
turning 20 this year, so ... Will she be turning 20 this year? Yes, or is she
 turning 19? So it's been 17 years. Um, I haven't been able to go every
year due to personal family issues and, and illnesses of my own.

Rob: Um, did you have any experience with Ukraine before traveling?

Lilly: Um, no, and I had ... My only experience traveling internationally before
going to Ukraine was as a teenager on an organized trip to Mexico.

Rob: And did you have any experience with anybody with Ukrainian culture or
anything before you traveled?

Lilly: The closest I may have had to knowing a, eh, any experiences with
Ukrainian culture is I did grow up, um, knowing a f- uh, some, a Jewish
family very well that was from Eastern Europe. Um, I'm not exactly sure
where in Eastern Europe they were, of course the boundaries have all
changed, so it's kinda hard to tell. They might have been Ukrainian, they
may have Polish, I'm not sure.

Rob: All right. Can you tell me about your first time experience, um, when you
first stepped in the Ukraine?

Lilly: It was overwhelming, it was extremely overwhelming. Um, the airport at

that point was, looked more, less like an airport that we're used to seeing
here in the United States, uh, and more like a military type airport. Um,
nobody was speaking English, um, including the person that was trying to
usher us through, uh, and help us through, uh, the airport. Um, and, and
peop- loudspeakers were going off, and, and people were barking get in
this line, and get in that line, um, and since it was not a language that I
had any knowledge of it was, it was, and people were in uniforms and
everything, it was kinda scary.

Rob: Okay. Um, and what about once that you left the airport, what, what was,
what was your experience then?

Lilly: Um, well, eh, we were all, uh, all three of us that were on that trip, we were
overwhelmed with how green the, everything in Ukraine was. We were
coming from Central Virginia, and which, which, uh, at the time was under
a pretty significant drought and everything was kind of brown. So
everything was green and lush, um, and, uh, the, it was interesting driving
to this, to, 'cause this, eh, uh, airport is on the outskirts of the city, so you
kind of drove through more of a, um, um, you know, kind of s- uh, urb- uh,
rural/suburbia type area, this was less, more trees and these kinda things.
And then you hit the city, and this, you know, it was, you know, this big
huge city of K- Kyiv, and, um, and it was, it was very exciting really.
Rob: Did you have any preconceived notions before going to Ukraine about
what it was going to be?

Lilly: Oh, yes, I did, definitely. Um, I, I was leery of, of the government, um, I
was expecting everyone to want bribes of us. I was, uh, afraid that
somebody was going to take ahold of me, and, and try to take my
passport and, and, and throw me into some kind of prison or something.
Um, uh, and as far as like the orphanage itself, uh, you know, I fully
expected, uh, um, you know, having seen the pictures out of Romania I
expected the orphanage to be that horrible.

Rob: Okay. Um, ha- has, had those notions, those preconceived notions that
you have, um, were, were they erroneous, or, um ...

Lilly: Um, over the years some of those ... Well, I'm, I'm not frightened anymore,
um, it's no different going to Kyiv or any of the other cities, it's no different
than going to a large city in the U.S. such as New York. Um, yes, you do
need to be careful walking on the streets, um, you know, 'cause it's
crowded just like it would be in New York City, and you have to be careful
of your, your, your, your, uh, your papers and your, and your money, but
no more than you are in, you know, in, in, um, Los Angeles, or New York
City or Washington D.C. Um, you know, you just have to ... The, um ...

Lilly: And as far as the orphanages themselves they varied from orphanage to
orphanage, uh, of what we saw, or what we've experienced. Um, uh,
we've seen some very positive things, we've seen some very negative
things, we've seen a lotta changes-

Rob: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Lilly: ... during the period of time.

Rob: What about that, that idea of bribery and, uh, m- uh, mistrust of the
government?

Lilly: Um, it's interesting because I think my Ukrainian friends continue to have
a huge mistrust of the government, um, and the bureaucracy, um, that
exist. I definitely have seen that in some of the orphanages, uh, the, the
bureaucracy and the, somewhat of the bribery. Um, I think ... And, and I
personally am not afraid that the government is gonna pick me up and
whisk me and put me into, into a jail somewhere. Um, I think things have
changed for the better since, um, well, first the Orange Revolution, and
then the revolution, um, uh, when they o- or on the Maidan, and, uh, um,
and of course there's, but there's still that overlying fear because of
 Russia, um, and how Russia wants to, uh, is already taken over a portion
of Ukraine, and would love to takeover more Ukraine.

Lilly: Um, i- it's, u- um ... But I don't see the government as being any really all
that different than some of the issues that we're dealing with in the United
States government. Um, we just see it differently because we still are, are
seeing it through the eyes of, um, post-Cold War. Um, and, you know, for
me having grown up very much as the child of, uh, the Cold War, and be
frightened of, of the red menace in, in Russia-

Rob: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lilly: ... uh, and, and seeing Ukraine as part of that situation.

Rob: Okay. Um, can you tell me about a memorable cultural misstep, um, that
you had while you were in Ukraine?

Lilly: Huh, a memorable misstep?

Rob: Or you can list more than one if you want.

Lilly: Um, I thi- I think one of the, one of the things that was ... I don't know if it's
a cultural misstep or what it was, but one thing that always has stuck out
in my mind was, I believe it was the first year we went to Rivne, or maybe
the second year, um, I think it was the first year. And we went to the rehab
center, and we were taking gifts to them at the rehab center of things that
they might need, there were vitamins, there were some other, um, medical
type supplies including thermometers.

Lilly: Um, we had, we, we had ordered there, or I ... Well, I don't know where
we'd ... Yeah, I guess we'd ordered them there these, you know, and we
had these huge boxes that we were gonna give to the rehab center to be
used with the children, um, that were in the center and they wanted
thermometers. And we had gotten this huge, box, you know, you know,
like a crate of thermometers that had individual boxes of thermometers, so
you would see like a 100 thermometers, uh, you know, your typical glass
mercury thermometers, um, and they had like boxes of 100 of 'em, and,
and there were ... I don't know how many boxes were in this larger box.

Lilly: Well, as we were bringing them all in of course we'd carried ... They'd,
they'd come into the Sense center, we had put them on our bus and
brought them from Kyiv to Rivne, um, and we got there, and the box had
been opened, we had opened the box, you know, to inspect the boxes and
make sure we knew what was in 'em. And when we were at Sense, maybe
 Sense had opened them up, and g- I don't, I don't remember that exactly,
um, but they had been at Sense for a while, and, and then we had opened
'em. Well, when we got to the rehab center the director there, um, uh, she
was taking an inventory, a very careful inventory of everything that we
brought in, um, that she needed to ke- you know, keep a tally of her list for
her documentations, um, which she apparently probably would have had
to turn over to the government.

Lilly: So we took this huge box, and she was counting out the boxes, and w- it
was realized that one of those small boxes of 100 was missing. This
woman, oh, my gosh, she went off the chain, I couldn't believe what it was
like. Um, she was all upset, and she kept, you know, "Where is the box,
where is the box?", and, and, you know, we were like, "This is what we
have." Um, we looked, and we looked in the bus and it wasn't on the bus,
and we looked, you know, we looked here and there, and it wasn't there.
"Where is this box?", and it was this box, so it was maybe, you know, six
inches, maybe not even that much, four inches, uh, square, um, and she
kept looking for it, this one particular box. And, you know, and she was
yelling, and her assistant was counting them and saying, "Well, I don't
have it, I don't have it.", and, and it was just this horrible, horrible mess,
and, and we were so overcome.

Lilly: And the feeling we had was that the woman was being greedy, and as she
wasn't being, um, grateful that we have brought these things, but, you
know, when looking back on it and reflecting back on it later she had to
account for those boxes to somebody above her. So I think that was a
cultural misstep, we took that as her being oh, unreasonable, and that she
was somehow gonna use these some other way than with the children.
Um-

Rob: Was it-

Lilly: ... but of course there was, you-

Rob: Wa-

Lilly: ... know-

Rob: Was there any-

Lilly: ... then there's-

Rob: ... particular way-

Lilly: the iss-

Rob: ... that you handled that one before you move onto another one?

Lilly: Any particular way that we handled it as a group or personally?

Rob: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Lilly: Personally, uh, what I wanted to do was crawl under their table and suck
my thumb, um, 'cause-

Rob: (laughs)

Lilly: ... you know, I was just so overwhelmed and, and, and s- overstimulated
by everything that was going on. Um, we just kept looking for it, um, and
finally we ha- we convinced her that instead of a hu- s- instead of saying
that she had 100 of these small boxes of 100 thermometers that she had
99 boxes of these, but you know, um, and that that's what had come in.
You know, we don't know where the bo- you know, I had no idea where
the box went, um, you know, and, but I ... My, my feeling of frustration it
was for myself as well as for the person that was directly under the head
director, um, because I, I, I, oh, I felt like she was trying to accuse her of
stealing the box of thermometers. Um, and, so, so we just kept trying to
say, "We looked for the box, we tried to help her found it. We recounted
the boxes multiple times.", um, and tried to handle it that way.

Lilly: Afterwards, um, as we tried to deescalate each other and debrief each
other there ... I don't believe we handled it well becau- And, and I have no
idea what the translator was saying back and forth to this woman or either,
because it stay- to me it stayed escalated, um, the entire time, and
afterwards it was like that horrible woman, that horrible woman. Um, and
we ended up ... Because of that situation we never did go back to that
rehab center, um, and, and that may have been a missed opportunity to
help children. I don't know.

Rob: You were ... Can ... Gonna continue with another cultural misstep before
that.

Lilly: Um, I think that, eh, eh, one that I was not personally involved in m- but I
know took place was, um, there's, there's a different look that ... Well, it, it,
it'd have ... I have seen some of it, but there's a different feeling towards
drinking than we generally have here in the United States, and definitely a
different feeling towards drinking than the group as a whole when we had
so many that were Southern Baptist had towards drinking. Um, having a
 toast is a cultural norm, um, in Ukraine, and it, in much of Europe actually,
but definitely in Ukraine. It- It's ... I, I have since learned it- it's a cultural
norm to have a toast, um, it is ... And, and, and we trying ... It was kind of
pushed on us, uh, sometimes by some of the translators I believe that we
were expected, uh, to participate in drinking.

Lilly: Um, I know for eh, eh, even the director of Pahinets, and, um, and some
of the other places, uh, there they have, they have vodka in their desk
drawers. I can't imagine walking into my principal's office, and having her
reach down and open her bottom desk drawer, and pull out a bottle of
alcohol. I mean it's just not something that would ever occur here, and
then offering that to somebody that came in, um, but that is, that was a
cul- was a cultural norm, um, that, and you, and they will offer it, um, at the
given times.

Lilly: I know that, um, that it got carried out to the extreme, um, in the one
situation, um, and like I said, I was not really a part of that, um, I did ...
They ... Uh, and there was drinking going on, um, between some board
members and a director I believe it was of the one c- the once cent- facility
that the group was working at to the point where some of the, um,
individuals there actually did, um, get drunk on it more than one occasion,
um, and, and that was problematic, um, for, for our group as a whole. Um,
I, I did ... On more than occasion I did participate in feast, um, eh, at the
end of the ... These were always like at the end of the week, and they
were big celebration type things where we were doing, uh, i- i- it- it's a
cultural norm, uh, between when you have a face, between courses to do
a toast and have a shot of vodka.

Lilly: And, um, they're shots of vodka are fairly large, and, uh, and for me
especially I'm not a drinker. So for me to have even one shot of vodka it's
a little bit, you know, like I'm, I'm, it's gonna affect me. Um, and if I sat
there and we had seven course, and I had seven shots of, of alcohol over
the two hour period by the time I got to the sixth one, um, yeah, I wasn't
really functioning, uh, as a s- as a sober, uh, uh, well-thinking individual.
Uh, so, so dealing with that cultural issue, um, is a pro- was, has been
problematic.

Lilly: Um, I think there's also been some issues with some of the people and the
food. Um, it's not, um, it's not, um, American food, uh, and, and that, and
that's a ... And, and people going, uh, you know, "Ewe, it's nasty, I don't
like that. It's go dew in it or whatever." Um, you know, they would probably
come over here and look at some of what we eat, you know, like and think
that was disgusting. Um, you know, we need to be ... So that's been a
 issue that ... And, and, and things have been expressed by people about
the food in front of Ukrainians.

Lilly: Um, of course language is another issue that I, that I always, you know,
see. Many, many people in Ukraine speak English or understand the
English, and there have been many times, uh, when our group, we've
been somewhere, and people in our group will say things, and they'll say
things that are quite inappropriate, and, um, or they're criticizing or making
fun of Ukrainian culture, and they will say things, and are you ... And the
Ukrainians standing around understand what is being said. Um, so there,
there's a, you know, a really bad misstep there, um, never assume that
anybody, that people don't understand you. Uh, of course as a so-called
Christian person we should also, eh, and somebody that's going to, going
over whether we're Christian or not Christian, are going over to help these
individuals why are we making fun of them, I mean that just doesn't make
sense.

Lilly: Um, I myself did a huge, uh, misstep, actually I, on two different occasions
I have done a misstep. I, um, as an early childhood teacher I use sign
language quite frequently when I'm working with my students, and I, um,
yo- uh ... When the first year I was there actually, um, I used the sign with
my fellow, or with the other two people that I was there with that I needed
to use the bathroom, and the sign for, uh, uh, using the bath- the, eh, the
ASL sign for using the bathroom, you take the T which is your thumb, uh,
between your index finger and your, and your middle finger, and, and you
shake it. Um, and I did that to indicate to [PT] and [OT] that I need to go to
the bathroom.

Lilly: Uh, and, and, and, so I did that, and, and, and went and said something
quietly to, to the, uh, uh, translator about needing to go the bathroom. And
then she started to la- They all started to laugh at me because I had
signed. The sign, uh, that I had done in Ukrainian, um, is part of seeing
the sign, actually it's quite similar to giving somebody the middle finger,
uh, and, and that, and that has, that has been an ongoing misstep of
the ... You know, I, I s- I'm sitting there in a room with people and I'm
signing, basically signing, you know, giving people the middle finger, uh,
eh, and it was-

Rob: (laughs)

Lilly: ... funny. I've shared this story with my, with Ukrainian friends, and they
have laughed at me. Um, the other one that I did is this, with a bunch of
children. I'm walking by and children are waving at me and yelling at me,
 and I just do this, I would have with my children in my classroom, I put the
sign, eh, eh, used the sign for I love you, which in Ukraine is a gang sign.
And I had this translator grab my hand and put it down and say, "Oh, no,
don't do that. You can't give these children a gang sign, that's just really
wrong."

Lilly: Um, and I have ... I was ... Been given strict instructions by some other
people that I may not use any sign, I may not gesture, and I must sit on
my hands. And I, and I tell this story to U- uh, Ukrainians when I meet with
them sometimes, and they, and, and they have a great fun with laughing
at me about the fact that I inadvertently-

Rob: Hmm.

Lilly: ... did, did something that was wrong.

Rob: So how ... I, I didn't wanna stop you back a little bit, but, but in the, in the
cases of maybe not you as personally, but somebody that is volunteering
and therefore ultimately responsible to somebody that's traveling for the,
from the board, how do you handle these missteps in the- these really
culturally inappropriate, um, actions? Um-

Lilly: Um, how I've ha- How I've handled it personally is I've talked to them, and
explained to them, uh, to, to our, to our participants, um, that-

Rob: Hmm.

Lilly: ... you know, we need to be, um ... Particularly when I'm working with the
Bible School type people I t- I talk to them about the fact that, um, we
need to be Christ-like, um, and remember, uh, that we need to treat
people the way we'd wanna be treated. Um, I also make sure that I, I
immediately start making sure that people coming over understand that
most of the people they meet are going to understand at least some
English. They might not speak it, but they're going to understand basic
English, and they're going to ... And their ears are gonna prick up when
they hear certain words. When they hear somebody saying something
about Ukrainians and then laughing they're gonna, well, they're gonna get
that. When they hear Ukrainian and ha-ha-ha-ha-ha they're gonna know
that somebody's making fun of them, and that we need to be culturally s-
sensitive, um, and, and then treat people the way we'd wanna be treated,
um, if they can to visit us.

Lilly: Um, as far as the food situation I know that a lotta people were, are
cautious about foods they've never had before. Um, again, I try to remind
 them of the rules that my grandmother always gave me, a simple little
thank you will do. Um, push it around your plate a little bit, and make it
look like you ate it, and then later on go and pick up the pizza that you
know you like, um, uh, you know, and there's always chocolate-

Rob: (laughs)

Lilly: ... you know? Um, and as far as the other things like, you know ... And, eh,
like, uh, me inadvertently using the, uh, inappropriate signs, um, I can only
apologize for my ignorance, and, and, uh, and explain what it means in my
country, and apologize for my ignorance.

Rob: Well, it sounds like at least in that case that you turned it into more of a
humorous situation than, than just the ... (laughs) Luckily it was within a
smaller group in, in those instances it sounds like, but being able to
explain it with humor versus ... And, and alleviate some of that tension that
you created.

Lilly: Well, actually it didn't even really create a tension as much as like really,
she just did that, um, and, and I, I, and I don't even think everybody
noticed it, but when I was able to make fun of myself i- it did elevate the
situation, and it is ... And it, it helped form friendships, you know, that we,
you know, um, it's, uh, it's okay.

Rob: Mkay. Um, so what is your understanding of the educational system within
Ukraine?

Lilly: Huh, what is your ... What do you mean by that question? Do you want me
to describe what I know about the-

Rob: Yeah.

Lilly: ... system? Um, well, I wa- I was ... Uh, my, my m- best knowledge has to
do with the early childhood-

Rob: Okay.

Lilly: ... situas- Um, and that's where my, more of my s- most of my knowledge
is because that's where my focus has been. Um, young children are able
to enter the kindergartens, and they don't necessarily have to start at the,
eh, kindergartens, but they come to the kindergarten, kindergartens. Um,
and they call 'em kindergartens, but it's really what we would refer to as
pre-school or nursery school, around age three, and they come in. Um,
and, and are ... They have, um, very rich developmental programs from
 three to seven years old. Um, that if they just do a lot, a lot with their
culture, and, and they do a lot of music activities and dance, and they do a
lot with, um, with play, and they do a lot of art, um, they don't do any, they
don't reading instruction. Um, and there's a lotta l- It's very language rich.
Um, m- it's, it's, it's a very beautiful developmental program, um, from
ages like three to seven.

Lilly: Um, once they're seven they leave the kindergarten and they begin, um,
actual school, and enter what would be equivalent to our first grade. Um,
and that's where they start learning written stuff and reading instruction,
um, and, and they, and stay in the elementary schools, um, and then they
move from the elementary schools. And around age, around seventh or
eighth grade my, uh, my, is my understanding, and at that point the
children are kind of, they are, are divided up and tracked whether they go
into more of a technical school system, or whether they go into a more,
uh, college bound system. And I believe they graduate at age 17, I think
they only go through like 11th grade, um, and, and they graduate. And at
that point they, there are various universities that they're able to attend,
um, and based upon what's, what, um, what they wanna m- what they
wanna do with their life, uh, so yeah.

Lilly: The ... Um, they're ... My understanding of their, um, high school years is
that it's more, and even their college years, it's more lecture based, there
isn't the discussion and projects that we are used to here in the United
States. The teacher lectures, they take test, and then they move onto the
next thing. They've take a ... Teacher lectures, lecture, lectures, and then
take a test, um, again, it's not, you know, the discussion based things that
we have so often. So that, that's my understanding.

Rob: Okay.

Lilly: Are you interested in more in what's going on with special education end
of-

Rob: And that-

Lilly: ... it as well?

Rob: And that's the next part of the question, so yes. (laughs)

Lilly: Oh, what I understand for the special education? Well, special education
is a very new concept, uh, and when I say new it's new in, in less than in
20 years. There was basically nothing when we first started going to
Ukraine, at that point children with disabilities were either hidden away or
 they were in the institutions. Um, I, I, I find it, find that situation very
comparable to what went on here in the United States in the '50s and '60s.
Um, ha- They're people began becoming more aware of, uh, disabilities in
the last 15 years or so, uh, and began keeping them home, keeping their
children and not putting them in institutions, and looking for educational
situations.

Lilly: Um, when we first started going primarily, uh, the children were in very
segregated situations, they were rehab centers. Um, children were not
expected really to learn any academic type skills, they were, uh, and this
doesn't matter whether they were physically involved or whether they
were, uh, mor- kids that were more likely on the ID, um, area. At that point
nobody was even talking about autism, that just was not something that
was talked about, um, which really wasn't surprising well if you follow
history here in the United States of how we developed. Um, these, um,
writ- And they were more, uh, li- And like I said, they were more in rehab
centers. They did, uh, taught ...

Lilly: Girls were tracked in and learned beadi- Would ... And, eh, would learn m-
beading and sewing activities, they might learn cooking, simple cooking
things. Boys would learn, would learn how to use their hands maybe for
tools, um, if they even learned that. Um, it was very, very low level
training. Um-

Rob: Was it that universal training, or, or just, eh, within areas?

Lilly: I think it was pretty much within areas. Is-

Rob: Yeah.

Lilly: ... it, eh, it was, um ... But it was the most, uh, s- 'cause really most of
these children had been in institutions, um, or either at home and never
gone anywhere. Um, I think they did do a lot with physiotherapy, uh, with
lots of the stretching and the massage with the kids that had, were, had
CP and those kinda things, um, but it wasn't ... But they didn't push for
children be mobile or to do things independently. Um, and, you know, this
is what I observed when I went to the centers-

Rob: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lilly: ... um, and, so my knowledge is based on two or three places and not the
whole country.

Rob: Okay.
Lilly: Um, when I first started going there most people in Ukraine had never s-
have never seen a child with spina bifida, cerebral palsy, uh, down
syndrome, they'd never even seen them, they were locked-

Rob: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lilly: ... away. And, so i- they had no, no idea of these children. Um, what i-
When we ... The second year I was there when we first went to Rivne, and
this would be about 16 years ago I'm thinking, I would have to look up the
exact date, sorry or anything, but about 16 years ago when we first went
to Rivne, um, was when we found out there were a group of parents
working along with a handful of professionals, uh, that were, had found out
about early intervention, and we're working to start and open an early
intervention center. Um, it was, it ... And tha- that was in that one city.

Lilly: There were apparently things that were going at the s- about the same
time in other cities, but this is the one I know about. This is, and, and this
touted at least by that city as being the first early intervention cena- center
in Ukraine. Um, and, and it was ver- It, it, it was very innovative, uh, it still
is doing a lot of innovative things. Um, children come into the center, they
are there, and they have s- they actually have some inclusion going on in
this pre-school early intervention center. They wo- They're working with
babies through, through, yeah, I think they've got maybe seven and eight
year olds, and maybe even older in the center. Um, and, and have a ...
And they're teaching a variety of types of skills.

Lilly: Um, after having traveled two years ago to some of the other cities I'm
seeing that there's similar things going on in other places in Ukraine. What
I find really sad is that none of these cities are communicating with each
other, uh, about what they're doing. Um, there currently is a law in the, that
is requiring inclusive education for students with, uh, disabilities, um,
however since there's no real special education teachers because there's
no training for special education teachers nobody knows what to do with
these kids. So these kids are showing up in the schools and no one knows
what to do with them. Um, there's questions about even where these kids
go, and people are making this, uh, professionals are making decisions
about where they should go, but there's just, there's just a disconnect with
it all.

Lilly: There are some private schools that are doing things in various places,
and again, they're doing some very innovative cool things, uh-

Rob: Are, are they inclusive-

Lilly: ... like nobody knew.

Rob: ... or are they segregated?

Lilly: Um, it's interesting because of the schools that I've visited there was one
that definitely said they were inclusive, but when I looked at the setting
and what they were describing it's not what I would even, would of, um,
would have labeled as inclusive. It was they were doing some incredibly
things at that center, but it was still very much a special education center.

Rob: Okay.

Lilly: Um-

Rob: So using a different, different definition than you're using for inclusive?

Lilly: Right, right. Um, but they're doing some great things, and they're, and
they're helping, they're, they're helping children. Um, so, so I wouldn't say
that it's ... I don't know, they're m- they're moving forward, they're moving
forward. Um, another center that we visited that also, um, touted to be
inclusive I really don't know because I did not ... The school wasn't
actually in operation when we were there, so I didn't see any children. Um,
I didn't s- really didn't see their program, um, and, but again, what they say
they're doing is some amazing things. Um, and then they're ... We did
get ...

Lilly: We also visited a school that, that did claim to be a school purely for
children with autism, and it was amazing, it was an amazing school for
students with autism. Um, I, I do wonder though ... Again, I didn't see s-
enough students to really know much about this school, so I'm not sure
that it was a, wh- whether they were taking, you know, just higher level
kids that were, that were higher level on this, on the spectrum, or whether
they were pulling in the kids that are significantly impacted, um, but they
were trying to ... Again, they were doing some really innovative, um,
programming with them.

Lilly: Um, you know, I visited, visited two different camps, one camp for
students with autism, and then, um, another camp that was, um, focused
on students, uh, with down syndrome and other intellectual disabilities.
Um, and both of these, the, were including families and working with
families, um, and again, they were doing a lotta innovative things in both
places. Um, I liked the whole idea of working with the families, these were,
these, both of these camps though were more of a parent organization
than a school situation.
Rob: Okay. And, so is that why you're saying there's a lotta parent run stuff?

Lilly: There seems to be a lot of things that are started by parents or, um, or
as ... There was, there's the one group that was, I think it was started sla-
by parents/church, um, in a, you know, just a small grassroots
organization, um, and they really-

Rob: Wow.

Lilly: ... did ... It's interesting 'cause again, they don't people that are s- trained
by the universities in special education, but it's amazing what these, um,
teachers and parents have learned by studying on the, on the web. And
also some of them have traveled, um, to Holland or to, I think some of
them went to Germany as well, and, and what they've learned ... And, and,
uh, going to conferences such as the ones we've put on to learn
everything they can to work with the children, it's, it's very impressive.

Rob: Mm-hmm (affirmative), okay. Um, can you tell me how you interact with
your Ukrainian colleagues?

Lilly: Um, it, it's interesting because I've gotten to, I've gotten to be very friendly
and, and enjoyed some of the, um, teachers at, uh, the one center that
we've gone to for many, many years. Um, it's interesting though there is a,
um ... They have a, I don't know the words, a fear or whether it's a, or was
s- such a strong respect for their one leader in admin, um, that it's inter-
When they're with the admin they say one thing or act one way, and when
the admin isn't around they say and do a different thing. Um, they, they're
really excited to see me, and they enjoy to see me, um, they, 'cause the
early childhood people, um, they recognize the other, another early
childhood person, someone that's all about children. Um, they very much
want to see how I do things and are excited about it. Um, I've learned
things from them, uh, and, and how they approach certain things, um, late.

Lilly: There are some things they do very, very well, and that I have admired. I
saw this also, I saw this at the one, uh, early intervention center these
same kind of behaviors, I also saw this same kind of behaviors at, at the
one, um, baby house that we spent time in. And we got to know the
teachers very, very well, but they spoke about the director in hushed
tones. Um, there's definitely a different feeling, uh, that they have and the
different behaviors they have in front of these directors, um, that, than they
do when they're not in front of them. Um, they see me as a peer, but it's a
knowledgeable peer.
Rob: Okay. Um, have you had any challenges that you've had to overcome in
working with Ukrainian colleagues?

Lilly: Um, well, and sometimes this part of the problem is the differences in the,
um, vocabulary even whe- even once it's translated, um, and we have sit
back and explain things sometimes, um, on how we, how we do things,
eh, how we're setup. Um, they don't hi- Again, they don't have these
people who are special ed teachers. Um, they have, uh ... We have
oncologists, um, as opposed to teachers, um, there's a lotta talk about the
psychologist who when I look at it is not really a psychologist, it's more of
a teacher. Um, then there's the whole speech therapy situation, um, it- it's
just, just figuring out how the roles are labeled.

Lilly: Um, and then, then there's, there is a difference in expectations of what
the professional role is/parent role. Um, that's been a thing that, that has
bothered me most is that when we work here in the United States we, we
spend a lotta time working as a team with parents, it's professionals and
the parent working as a team, um, to do what's, to meet the child's needs.
There's even, even more of that feeling that the professional knows it all,
and the parent knows, eh, nothing, and has to do whatever the, the, the
professionals say, um, there than there is here. Um, and, and, and it ...
This is just the way it is, we, you know, we're in charge, you're not in
charge.

Lilly: Um, it's more like going to the doctor where the, you, you know, when the
doctor knows everything, and prescribes and says this is the way it's
gonna be, and as a par- you know, as the patient, parent or the patient,
you do what the doctor says. Well, that's the way it's kinda thought of in, in
there with the teachers. They ... The professionals say this is what's gonna
happen, and the parent has n- just kinda has to go okay, this is what we're
gonna do.

Rob: Okay. Oh, is there any particular way that, that has helped overcome any
of those challenges?

Lilly: Um, being able to talk more with, um, the Ukrainians that speak English
well, and-

Rob: Okay.

Lilly: ... and just talk casually has helped whether it was the, whether it's been
the parents, or whether it's been the teachers talking to them, and, and
getting more on the same page. Um, one thing that was, has been very
 help- was very helpful for me in trying to sort it all out was having the
opportunity to know a young woman that had been an exchange student
here in the U.S., and was able ... So she had seen the American system
and, and had seen the ... And of course had grown up with U- the
Ukrainian system, and was, she was able to put it more on a level playing
field for me, so I had a better understanding of it, um, and was able to
converse more.

Lilly: Um, I think though the biggest change I saw with any of this kind of
attitude, um, and understanding of exactly how the system works or could
work, and I, I don't know if it relates or answers your question or not. But
three years ago when we were in Khmelnytsky, um, we, we had at the end
of one of our sessions we had a group of parents, we had a group of
teachers, and then we had people from what would be similar to the
central office, the, the district people, the admins. And actually they started
... We facilitate, we facilitated a conversation between the three of them,
and those three groups talked back and forth, and they began to
understand each other and where each other was coming from.

Lilly: And as they were understanding where each other was coming from, and,
and my, and the translator is talking to me and explaining things to me, I
began to get a better understanding of how that whole piece works, and
how, and how they feel that their government works, and, and their school
system works, um, and it was just a really educational, emotional,
amazing time.

Rob: So that, that ... Being in that place, just like an interjecting onto my
recording, that, that, uh, that started out because there was an argument
in the room, correct-

Lilly: Right, right.

Rob: ... but between these two?

Lilly: There was no ... Right, there was an argument, and it, and the argument
had to deal with making decisions on where children were, whether
children would be allowed into the gen-ed schools, or whether they would
be stuck away to this school, you know, off in a corner by itself, or they
would not ha- be al- have access to the general curriculum.

Rob: Yeah, okay. That, that helps to answer that question. Um, and then the
last question for tonight, um, what have you learned from your
experiences in Ukraine?
Lilly: I've learned there's always more to learn. Um, that's ... But probably ...
That's, that's one piece that I've learned, but I've learned, uh, it has
nothing to do with education, it has to do with life-

Rob: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Lilly: ... has to do-

Rob: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Lilly: ... with people, we're all the same, we all want the same things. We want
to be accepted, we want to be loved, we want our children to be healthy
and happy, and to live full and rich lives. Um, I grew up during a period,
during the Cold War, during a period of time where everything you saw on
TV, the Russians, which the Ukrainians fell under that category, um, being
part of the USSR, um, that they were ... They had horrible people that
wanted to kill Americans, um, and, and that they were out to get us
somehow. And as I've met and talked to people about their experiences
during the same period time, um, in Ukraine they had the same feelings
about Americans, that somehow we were out to get them, and that we
were bad, horrible people.

Lilly: And, and knowing this on both sides, and looking at it helped me to realize
that all over the world we all want the same thing. It's not people who are
causing the hate that goes on and on, it's bureaucracies, governments,
um, it's not your day-to-day people. And I don't need to be scared of
somebody because they're skin is a different color, because they worship
a different way, or, or the worshi- they call God by a different name. Um, I
don't need to be frightened because somebody has a different idea,
different customs' and celebrates, um, Rosh Hashanah or Ramadan as,
as to Christmas. Um, we're all the same, and if we would stop and
remember that we could end all this, we could end all the war.

Rob: Okay. Um, is there anything else that you have to add on any of the topics
that we talked about tonight?

Lilly: I don't think so. Um, I think it's an ongoing learning process. I understand
that their culture is different, and it's something to be celebrated as much
as my culture is to be celebrated. Um, and I, eh ... And it's something I can
learn to love, and I can learn more about it. Um, their day-to-day
experience is different than mine because I live at, I live in a very different
cult- or my culture is different. Um, m- but it's fun, it's, it's, it's fun to, to
learn this and to experience this. So I guess that's all I have to say-
Rob: All right.

Lilly: ... and I-

Rob: Uh-

Lilly: ... have to go do work.

 Appendix C

Meg’s Interview

Rob: It's too close to the end of the semester this year.

Meg: (laughs)

Rob: All right. So we'll start out with the first question is just that...tell me about
your role within USNOF.

Meg: Well, um, I'm on the board of USNOF and um, part of our role is to help
organize our trips and decide what teams and education topics need to be
discussed each summer when we go. Um, I've always been in charge of
the vacation Bible school team and helping direct that.

Rob: Um, and, kind of follow up on that. How did you come into that role?

Meg: (laughs) Living next to Karen [inaudible 00:00:43] (laughs). No, no my

background, um. I have a Masters in Education, but I also taught PE, um,
for many years and I also have a seminary degree so it's just...I've always
had a love for vacation Bible school, so I fell into that spot because it
combined, you know, my love of sports and teaching games to the kids,
but also sharing the Bible skills that I have.

Rob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). All right. Um, so how long have you been traveling
to Ukraine?

Meg: (laughs) Um, I started summer of 2001 with my family. We lived in

Chicago. We traveled to Ukraine, um, on a trip then. But then we moved to
Virginia in 2002, and happened to land next door to the Feathers who run
Ukraine Special Needs Orphanage Fund and um, been traveling, oh gosh,
2004, 2005, 2000 (laughs). 14 total trips.

Rob: Um, did you have any experience with Ukraine or the Ukrainian culture
before traveling to Ukraine?

Meg: No.

Rob: Okay.

Meg: No, just happened to, um, meet some missionary friends that needed help
in Ukraine and thought it would be a fun adventure.
Rob: All right. Let me add in a question here. Um, can you tell me about your
first, your first time in Ukraine. What, what, what did you do and, and what
was the experience of, of within that new culture?

Meg: Um, our first trip we went to Uzhhorod, Ukraine which is in far Western
Ukraine and the Carpathian Mountains and we worked during the day. We
did a vacation Bible school with gypsy students, um, gypsy kids, um, it's a
very populated with gypsies. And then, um, in the afternoons, I would go
and teach English as a second language at Cornerstone English Academy
and help teach. Um, I had all levels from elementary to high school
students, and some business executives, teach them English, and then in
the evenings, we helped coach an American football team. They were
introducing Ukrainians to American football.

Rob: Okay. And did you have any experience...uh like, what were the new
things in the culturally that you experienced on that trip?

Meg: Um, (laughs) um, (laughs). I'll do [inaudible 00:03:26] good. No, um, we
actually lived in a...we rented a home for a month and lived in a home, um,
in Uzhhorod, the water is rationed and so you only had water, um, for two
hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. So, it was a chore
getting used to that, um. If you wanted water outside of those four hours
you had to walk to the village with your buckets and collect water. Um,
also just, you know, here we're modern transportation, and cars, easy
access. Um, there, um, didn't have a vehicle, so had to rely on public
transportation. That was a new adventure with their little vans and all that.

Rob: Um, during your time in Ukraine, since you've had such vast many
years...um, do you have any memorable missteps in interacting with the
Ukrainian culture?

Meg: Any what? What did you say?

Rob: Um, like cultural missteps.

Meg: Um, I think, um. I'm trying to think. No, I think, I mean, I've been prepared.
I'm trying to think of some situations. Um, sometimes, I mean, as far as
vacation Bible school when we go into facilities as far as the openness to
teach the Bible, you know, we've had run into some situations. Um, I'm
trying. No, I don't think of any.

Rob: Okay. Uh, you hit on the idea of being prepared, so, um, how did you
prepare, um, for traveling to the new culture?
Meg: Well, our initial trip, um, since we were, we were actually going over to
work with missionary families, so we planned the trip, oh probably 18
months in advance. And so, um, the missionaries, we were constantly in
touch with them and, um, they were preparing us as far as, you
know...they sent us language skill, um, language videos to watch. They,
um, had filled us in on all the cultural differences. Um, what to expect food
wise. And stuff like that, so, so it was working with the missionaries. And,
you know, when we landed, we landed in Hungary, and then drove to
Ukraine and it was, you know...we were prepared because they had filled
us in on what to expect.

Rob: Okay. Um, um, what is your understanding of the education and special
education system within Ukraine?

Meg: Um, well, thanks to USNOF and other people that are eager to help out, it
has gotten a lot better, but um, initially, um, on our first visit there, you
know it was, there was no education. Those with disabilities were just
thrown into an orphanage where they would, you know, left to die. Um, but
it...thanks to USNOF the eyes have been opened up and, people realize
that kids with disabilities could be educated. And as a result, you know,
there's nursery schools and they're now, and you know, able to attend
regular schools. And they're not being neglected and cast aside, which
was once the stereotype.

Rob: Do you have any understanding of like, the education system just as an
overarching, like, how education typically is run within Ukraine?

Meg: Um, just basic. I mean, we've worked at...when we went with our first trip
we, um, went into elementary schools or the little primary schools, um,
and it wasn't, you know, much different from an American primary school,
you know.

Rob: Okay. Um, kind of leads into that next question really well. Um, how does,
um, that kind of system differ, or is similar to, um, the United States
system that you're familiar with?

Meg: Oh, I mean as far as theirs, I mean, in the Ukraine, that's...students will
attend school up I think what till age 16 or 17, and then they go to
university. Um, very similar here. For a good portion of the Ukrainians it is
a goal to finish their education, their high school education and go to
university. Um, as far as the special needs individuals, um, the last time I
don't know how high it's going up to, the last it was like third grade. I don't
 know if it's gone any higher since then. I don't know. What grade is Anton
in now? Is he still going to school?

Rob: Um, I think he's back to special school.

Meg: Okay. So.

Rob: But he's-

Meg: But I mean-

Rob: But Anton's 16 now?

Meg: Wow (laughs).

Rob: (laughs)

Meg: So, yeah and I mean it...the curriculum, I mean it seems very similar to
American curriculum. I mean, the kids learn the basics. Their reading,
writing, math and sciences, so.

Rob: Okay. Um, can you tell me about how you interact with your Ukrainian
colleagues?

Meg: (laughs) Um, which colleagues, or?

Rob: (laughs)

Meg: (laughs)

Rob: What, what [crosstalk 00:09:09]. Where do you want to start out with
(laughs)?

Meg: (laughs) So, well the, um, all the individuals that work at the, um, children's
homes and the intakes facility that we've visited many times, they're like
family. Interact with them like family. Um, as far as the seminars and when
I've gone to meet with various officials at schools and stuff, it's like you
would, you know... when, you're dealing with your superintendent and
higher ups in a school district, similar meetings like that.

Rob: Okay. Um, and is that through translator or interpreter, or?

Meg: Yes, that's (laughs) the we have, um translators, well we have interpreters
that go with us and help direct the meetings.
Rob: Okay.

Meg: And when interacting with people at the intake facility and everything we
also have interpreters, but it's also a lot of charades and just, you know,
we've known one another for so long it's like family that we can interact
without using words.

Rob: Um, have you had any challenges that you've, um, that you've had to
overcome working with, or that you have overcome, um, in working with
Ukrainian colleagues?

Meg: No, I mean, at first it was hard with getting used to having a translator and
wanting to say so much so fast and, you know, you had to learn to, you
know, rely on one or two sentences at a time and then pace your
conversations. But haven't had any problems.

Rob: Okay. Um, what has your experiences in Ukraine taught you?

Meg: (laughs) Patience. (laughs) Um, we've learned that, you know, here in
America time is very...I mean we, we're you know, you have a 9:00
meeting, you have a 9:00 meeting. You're there at 9:00. We've learned on
our many trips to Ukraine that, um, time, a 9:00 meeting may be they
show up at 9:30, 10:00. It's just, you know. And you just learn to roll with it
and just go, and deal with it.

Rob: So did it, it, being able to adapt has been, to-

Meg: Yes.

Rob: That kind of thing has been helpful?

Meg: Yes.

Rob: Is there anything else that you've learned?

Meg: Um, also just learned, um, we...we're always reminded how spoiled we
here, we are here in the States and how, you know, if I want to research
something I can go to, you know, a huge library and research something,
or I have, you know, more resources in this area. Whereas Ukraine, you
know, these teachers are just dying to learn new techniques and
strategies, but don't have as many resources as we do, and so they are
eager to soak up what we, you know, have to share with them.
Rob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is there any kind of thing that helps within those
sharings that, um, makes it more meaningful in your mind? Or more
something they can grasp onto when you're explaining?

Meg: So, well they, um, we've learned in the past they have a lot of hands on
activities so that they get takeaways not only, you know, takeaways in
their notes, but also have examples of what we're trying to teach to take
away with them to, and that's so valuable in sharing with them, so they
have that visual that they can rely on and, you know. And then they can,
you know, go on and go back to their school and teach their peers.

Rob: Um, how do you think the, um, seminars are received by, um, Ukrainians
that are attend?

Meg: Oh, well, I think they're well received. I think they would be happy to have
us there 365 days a year. I mean, they just are always seems so
disappointed when it comes to an end because we've just, you know, hit
one little, you know, chunk off the iceberg and they, you know, want us to
be there to just give more information and chip away with more
information for them to learn and be better educators.

Rob: Okay. And is there any, um...are there any times that you can think of that
maybe something we presented was not received well?

Meg: Um, no, I think, um, at least all the situations I've been in it was received
well. I mean, they are eager to hear about autism and then when we take
the therapist and, you know, when we go on to teach new therapy
techniques and swallowing techniques, they were all eager for that.

Rob: Okay. Do you have any negative, um, experience? Because everything so
far has been really positive. Is there any negative experiences either
within, um, the seminars or within the vacation Bible school, in the
interactions that have occurred?

Meg: Just the one negative is that everywhere we go, people just automatically
think Americans are millionaires. And we go in there and, you know, even
though we bring a lot of supplies and stuff, they always want more and,
you know, get very disappointed if we don't provide more. Like when
we've gone to the children's home and we've provided, you know, clothes
for the children, shoes for the children, a great week of vacation Bible
school, and, you know, we leave recreation supplies, build swing sets,
they always want more, you know. "Can you leave a refrigerator? Can you
leave us soap?"
Meg: And so, we've had some negative experiences there where, you
know...sometimes the people give us a cold shoulder, the executives at
those facilities, because they wanted more and we couldn't provide more.

Rob: Okay. So does that that kind of expectation of what Americans are versus-

Meg: Yeah.

Rob: Okay, um. And then was there anything that has ever surprised you, um,
that you've learned of Ukrainian culture, as we've...throughout the years,
um?

Meg: No.

Rob: Okay.

Meg: I'm trying to think. Can't think of anything that surprised (laughs).

Rob: I think some of that leads to just your openness to people (laughs).

Meg: (laughs) Yeah, yeah. So.

Rob: All right. Um, that's all I have. It went a lot faster [crosstalk 00:15:48] than I
thought it was going to, so.

Meg: Okay. I'm sorry I wasn't, you know, not very detailed answers, but.

Rob: No, I think there were some that were very detailed [crosstalk 00:15:56].

Meg: (laughs)

Appendix C

Katherine’s Interview

Rob: ... get my recorder started. All right so the first question is, can you tell me
about your role in USNOF?

Katherine: Well my initial role in 2002 was to start the organization. All right, this is
where I'm hearing feedback but I'll try not to stumble. Um, but my, my
initial role was to uh, start the organization to get the paperwork started, to
um, to uh, talk to others about um, the mission of the organization. Uh,
 first we were incorporated then we got I, Um, IRS approval and um, as a
non-profit organization. And we formed a board.

Katherine: So, back at that point we were meeting as a board. Um, these were
individuals who have a strong connection to initial, to two of the initial trips
where um, we went to um, I sent a team of, of three ladies who were
therapists and a preschool special needs teacher to start a um, to set up a
therapy room and equipment at the Beritzka Orphanage where were
adopted Diana um, my daughter. And then, um, then that moved into a
volunteer trip um, the following summer where we took a large group of
people from a church of volunteers that wanted to go help. Um, they also
set up a vacation Bible school. We looked at certain products.

Katherine: We were building relationships in the area of Rivne, Ukraine. Um, and
after that particular trip in 2003, I feel like that's when our board became
active. We would meet every month, every other month. While we were
planning the next trip for Ukraine we would meet in Fredericksburg. And
um, we had probably, probably four um, board members named at the
time on the incorp, on the Virginia incorporation papers. Um, but we had a
team of probably about eight people, um, that met and did planning for the
education side of the trip. Uh, trying to uh, gather information about
projects that were needed. Trying to get a sense of, of how the school
system worked. How the rehab centers were involved with the education
of people with disabilities. Children with disabilities.

Katherine: Um, and we were beginning to connect with an early intervention center
called Pahinets. That was sort of our landmark project that allowed us to
work on um, uh, translating early intervention curriculum for the center,
gathering, getting supplies, hiring speech therapists for the center for the
summer, meeting with parent groups. That was sort of the educational
side. And then we had volunteers that went and did vacation bible schools
in the orphanage. Then we had another team of people who were the care
and repair team. Um, and they would uh, they were in charge of working
on projects, allocating money for projects at the baby house and at each
of the uh, centers where we were doing vacation, vacation Bible school as
well as, as renovation projects at the early intervention center, Pahinets.

Katherine: And so, on the board we had people who were in charge of each of these
teams. And as we prepared for each summer trip, then each team would
gather the group of volunteers and plan with them for the summer trip,
signing duties, gathering supplies, establishing roles of each of those
teams for their summer work. And, at the same time we were developing
relationships with the um, administrators of the facilities where we were
 working, which involved an intake facility and a, um, a small boarding
school um, that was the children's home for young children. And um, for
the vacation bible school projects and the Pahinets center which was the
beginning of an early intervention center that was under the umbrella of a
public school system. Servicing children birth to age eight. And for several
years that was the focus of our work.

Katherine: So, um, I looked at myself as in, in leadership as a fundraiser. Um, a

spokesperson, I had the story, I had the, was an educator. I also had a
daughter who, two daughters who had down syndrome. One was adopted
from Ukraine and was a Ukrainian citizen. So, I spend a lot of time talking
with administrators and, about projects they needed done and um, future
work. Um, educational conferences that might evolve and parents in
parents groups to find out what their needs and concerns were.

Katherine: We had a couple of different people who came on board uh, to do the
financial um, job. Um, and then we had a host of very dedicated
volunteers who worked underneath at each of these, um, each of, each of
the leaders in the project groups. Um, over the years we lost some people.
And um, others came on board. People moved to different location across
the United States and in, different location in Virginia. And so it became
harder for the group um, of the board members to meet regularly. And that
was not a good thing because, because some of our leaders became less
and less involved. Do you want me to continue with the story (laughs)?

Rob: Okay.

Katherine: Um, and in more recent years we lost our non-profit status because we did
not consistently file taxes. We were not making any money, but we got
behind and the financial team got very behind in filing the paperwork. Um,
we did continue to, when we lost the non-profit status, we continued uh, to
be incorporated by the Commonwealth of Virginia. And we continued our
work. Um, and I would say within the past two years the board um,
members, who became inactive um, some dismissed themselves. And we
are down now to about four board members who live locally in central
Virginia um, and have strong connection and relations. We all have a
strong connection to each other and to the purpose of the organization
which has still continued to have yearly educational conferences.

Katherine: We have not had a vacation Bible school in several years. But we have
had fact finding trips where board members have traveled each summer to
do um, either a fact finding trip or um, at least one educational conference
in more than one region to expand the work and to um, especially get a
 sense for the movement of inclusive education in Ukraine. Um, and, new
organizations that are coming onboard to partner um, with ours and with
the causes for seeking education um, for their, for their school personnel
to, to enhance their programs for inclusive education.

Katherine: I would have to say Rob LeSueur and Janice LeSueur have done the most
over the past few summers, along with Emily LeSueur. Um and, in moving
through multiple regions to make connections with key um, key university
personnel. Um, some legislators in different regions and centers that are
also nonprofit. And um, and some public school system to look ahead
towards um, a strong, developing a stronger partnership and future
conferences. Educational conferences where our organization can
collaborate with um, with their efforts and also where we can expand our
resources um, with our universities here. Um, to also um, become more
involved in, in what's going on in Ukraine with, with inclusive education.

Katherine: And I would say that those fact finding missions have been very
productive. I would say as a board we have a lot of work ahead um, to, to
dissect this information and to figure out how we can um, how we can
um ... work through the research that has been gathered to report on what
Ukraine is doing. And um, to work towards publication, to work towards
um, future, future trips. And um, we are volunteers and so um, we need to
develop a stronger time table, a more definite time table of what these
efforts are going to looking like in the future. Did that answer your
question?

Rob: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Katherine: Okay.

Rob: Um, I think that the only part that you left out is how is your role ... I'll ask it
as another question though. How has your role changed over the course
of, of starting USNOF?

Katherine: Um, my role started as a founder and fundraiser. And as a spokesperson.

As a mom who had a child with a disability who believed in public school,
who was a public school teacher for many years, and who understood
early intervention from a parent perspective. And to told the story of
Ukraine and the needs of parents and families and teachers to be
proactive and receive and education. Um to um, to stay ahead of the
game and belief, with a belief that education was the key towards um,
equality of Ukrainian children um, and people in this society.
Katherine: And so I told, my role was to tell my story. Both with, both in organizations
and churches and with people here in um, um my community across
Virginia. Um to, to rally volunteers. To join the cause and to go with us.
Initially my role to organize the trips and to work on getting visas and
communicating with the project manager in Kiev. Making most of the plans
initially, um, along with one or two other people. Um, my role changed to
being more of a fundraiser and not traveling as much probably in the
middle years due to needing to be here to take care of my children. Um,
one of which who had some very serious um, medical needs.

Katherine: And so, I felt like my role was to work on getting my education. I was in
grad school at the time in special education and to um, to work on
organizing the trips and the volunteers and the supplies here in the States
and to raise money. Um, after I received my masters in special education
and was working on my doctorate, um, I had the opportunity um, to begin
participating in the educational conferences and traveling abroad. Which I
have done a few times um, as a um, as a spokesperson and, and also
having on the third trip, there were two conferences that I've been a part of
where I actually um, did some teaching and um, helped plan the
educational trip and collaborated with other, with other teachers and um,
who were also presenting.

Katherine: So, my role moved more strongly towards um, being an educator. Which
was something that I had wanted to provide at the beginning and it was
wonderful to have the opportunity to participate in that way um, on the, on
the trip. And then I think my role is um, is um as a, as a professor to reach
further into um, not just talking with parents or teachers or schools
systems, but also to try and, you know, it's a future goal. It's been
something I've talked about and I've actually had some meetings but have
not actually been able to fulfill the requests that have been made of me
yet. Um, and that is to um, to develop more of a partnership with the
university to provide a conference or a course that might be taught
collaboratively with other professors. Um, to train professors on different
methodology and evidence based practices that are effective in inclusive
education and with, specifically with students and teaching students with
autism um, in public school. So, that is something that is a future goal of
mine. Hopefully in the near future.

Rob: All right. The next question is, how long have you been traveling to
Ukraine?

Katherine: Since my first trip was in 2001. And um, I my last trip was in 2017. So, um,
for many years it was yearly between that time. And um, there were some
 years that I did not go or that I would alternate going. Some years my
husband would go and so years I would go. And we would switch places.
And there were a couple of years in there where we did not go. Like, 2017
we didn't go because, no, I mean 2014. Because of the revolution and
there was another year that we didn't go because my son got married. And
um, in 2010. So, I didn't travel that year as well. So ...

Rob: Um, did you have any experience with Ukraine before traveling to
Ukraine?

Katherine: No. Um, no I met a man who was an adoption lawyer who had adopted
many, several children with down syndrome. We became connected with
him through the social worker who did our home study and who believed
that he could help us find a child to adopt who had down syndrome which
was our specific reason for adopting another child after we had a birth
daughter who had down syndrome. So I had a cultural orientation before
this adoption process in 2001 and I did not have any prior connection. Um,
this man was uh, was in charge of a Ukraine adoption group and we
learned through him that there were many children who had down
syndrome who were in orphanages in Ukraine and needed a home, so.

Rob: Okay. So you said you had a cultural orientation before going over?

Katherine: We did. Um, we did. It was a part of the adoption group. Um, I don't, I will
say that it was probably very ineffective after going to Ukraine. Um,
because it very much um, underrepresented some of the cultural
differences that were a part, specifically at the adoption process. Um,-

Rob: Could you elaborate a little bit more on what wasn't included?

Katherine: Well, things like keeping a very low profile. This was um, right after 9/11.
Within months of 9/11. But, Americans not being appreciated in the
country. They were, that's sort of what we were told. That we had to kind
of wear drab clothing. That there would be extra fees attached which we
kind of bribery for getting meetings. And these were, this was all
connected with the government and the system, the adoption system, that
there would be extra um, there would be extra fees that would be
attached. Or they, or some of the officials from the orphanage, director to
the deputy, not deputy mayor, the deputy I guess um, that worked in the
adoption office, um, that we could have, we could have um, some of our
meetings delayed uh, with finalizing the process if we were not
cooperative and we didn't pay extra fees.
Katherine: And they were thought, it was kind of explained to us that some of these
officials were, were um, supporting multiple people in their families and
that it was needed, and we were to have gifts for everybody. And there
was to be extra money in gifts. And that they refuse them but the expected
them. And so some of those things made me on that trip, very much
mistrust Ukrainians and feel that they were um, that, that there wasn't any
consistency in the country. Um, or in the government system. That there
wasn't a sense of justice and fairness. That there was corruption.

Katherine: And so, what I learned is after being there and what I saw with my own
eyes, I was unprepared for that. And, but what I saw was that in the
orphanage there were people who very, very much loved the children. The
children had very little. And of course, and that people had very little. Um, I
did see things like, um, I mean just sort of placing how far behind um,
attitudes are concerning people with disabilities back in 2001. Um, I
remember um, when we were coming home and we were crossing the
border into Poland I remember our driver having to put money in our
passports to be able to cross. That was something that had not been
discussed with me, but I think our, we had been charged extra money
upfront to cover that.

Katherine: Um, we heard our children called imbeciles when they were, we all had
children with down syndrome. And um, then we heard that terminology
used. Um, we were told to take pictures of our kids because people would,
'cause the officials would question our desire to um, to adopt children with
disabilities, with down syndrome. That they, we were, they would think that
we may be wanting to adopt them to sell um, body parts, as horrible as
that sounds. Um, and so, I over there had a notebook full of pictures of my
children. Of Erin in school, in a preschool special needs program and
there were kids in the pictures who had, who were in wheelchairs and who
had cerebral palsy and it was very, physical disabilities that were easily
recognizable.

Katherine: And it was as if people in the court system had never entertained the
thought that children with disabilities could ever go to school and learn.
And so there, I was in grad school at the time, I was involved in early
intervention. I, I talked a lot with anyone who would listen about schools in
America and rates of children with disabilities and their potential to learn
and what they were capable of learning from an educators point of view.
And that's how this organization got started. Because there was um,
because the officials on adoption day asked me to return with people who
could train their people.
Katherine: And, uh, so we sent supplies and had basketball games and sent supplies
and a team of people. And actually before we sent the team of people
there was this 15 year old young man named Rob LeSueur who said, but
they wanted you to send people who could train their people. They want
people to go. And that was in the bank parking lot in Fork Union, Virginia.
And so we had another basketball tournament and we raised enough
money to a total of 10, 000 to send people. To send therapists and a
teacher, and to send supplies, 5000 dollars worth of therapy supplies to
set up a therapy room in the Beritzka Orphanage.

Katherine: And so, that's how that got started. But, I did have another experience that
I just want to share about how the cultural, um, about challenging the
cultural perspectives that I had been prepared thinking that, that the bribe
that the money, that the bribes were gifts, actually. Because the
orphanage director stated that we had to pay a certain price for the
orphanage to him if we wanted to get a court date set for the adoption.
And we had all the paperwork in place and we had everything, had done
everything in order to prepare um, from a legal standpoint. And we were
very capable of providing a home for this sweet little girl.

Katherine: And I remember speaking my mind about what he was asking um, to the
translator. And the translator said, "You tell him." And it was customary for
the orphanage director to look over my head and just at the translator and
not even address me personally. And so I started telling him about the
gifts that had been sent because we were told to bring gifts to the
orphanage. And we wanted to. And I told him that those gifts had been
raised by a youth group that sold donuts and did fundraisers because they
wanted to do something special for the children. And that I could not go
back and tell them that I had given money for a bribe, just to get a court
date. And that's when things changed in our relationship with that man,
who then became very interested in the fact that we were adopting a child
with down syndrome.

Katherine: And I do, I do believe that that orphanage director had a heart for the stud,
the children. He started talking about children he had who were in the
hospital. And children who he wanted to do more for and didn't have the
money to, to adequately take care of them. Um, some of the ones that had
more serious needs. So, um, you know, I left feeling like I don't want to
come back here, but I did on future trips begin to see how, if we had a
relationship with these officials, if they knew what we were capable of
doing, what we could provide and what we couldn't, if we were just honest
about, what, what our intent was and if we came back and provided what
we could that they began to trust us.
Katherine: I also learned that they did not, many of the ones in the early intervention
centers and then the Omni centers, the Ukrainian American, the Ukrainian
American Birth Defects program. Um, that they did not want us to just
hand them money. That they wanted to be able to um, make, implement
the changes themselves. But they wanted us to validate the changes that
they wanted to make with their bosses as being evidence based practices.
And as, they wanted us to talk about what we saw them doing and to
encourage them to continue the work. And that validation meant
something to them. It validated with their bosses that they needed the next
project. Um, it was all one step at a time.

Rob: Has, has the mistrust that you had originally from the orientation changed
over time?

Katherine: Yes. Yes. Um, I think um, it definitely has. I think that Ukraine has made a
lot of strides in the public school system. I think that, um, I think that there
are always, you're always going to have people who mistrust, or who are
not trustworthy. But, I think that was we developed enough um, we have
been very observant um, and we have had very good translators who
have become a part of the mission of USNOF. And they have been able to
help us see who we can trust and who we can't.

Katherine: We did learn that projects, it was important like with care and repair team
projects that if we were going to renovate windows in a certain section of
an orphanage that we needed to hire the laborers and we needed to see
the project happen while we were there. And that if the project did not
quite, was not quite finished, then we had people that we trusted that had
worked with us who were Ukrainians for many years. I mean we, had
worked with us for many years who lived there, um, finish the project um,
to ensure that the project was finished to our satisfaction and to pay them
when the project was finished instead of paying them upfront.

Katherine: So, things like that. We um, we, I think the, again the key is, is in
developing relationships. And so we've been able to see that happen.
Also, another thing that I believed um, I think I was led to believe, and this
had been validated, that there is a belief in Ukraine by many parents that
it's a curse if you have a child who has down syndrome. And um, and so
the parents were, would just cast their children away. And through
meeting with many parents, you know, there are different stages of
grieving. The parents, I think maybe all parents go through when they
have a child that has a disability. Um and, there has, it's a greater sense of
hopelessness there.
Katherine: Yet, there were many parents who wanted to keep their children and who
were pioneers in advocating for positive change to get services and um,
and education for their kids. And medical care. Those kinds of things. So
we have seen that evolve, and that is definitely something that um, that
has been validated again and again for me.

Rob: Do you have an instance of a memorable misstep, uh, a cultural misstep,

um, from while you were in Ukraine?

Katherine: Um ... you mean of the type that I have described?

Rob: Well, or of any, of any type. Of, because we could, we could switch gears
too if that would be-

Katherine: Well, I'm just, yeah, okay I guess another cultural misstep that um, or
maybe it was my own ignorance, was that um, that when we came to do
an educational conference, that we were the ones that had all of the
information to impart. And that that would be received that way. That just
um, a sense of gratitude about um, that, that, that there is, I don't think I
realized at first how much there was for us to learn from the Ukrainians at
the same time.

Katherine: And so we began to integrate a greater collaboration. Um, which was

forced on us by one very bureaucratic administrator in one of the facility,
facilities, who wanted to take control. Um, so there, one of our biggest
challenges in doing a, in doing a conference and planning a conference
was making sure the people that we brought to present thousands of
miles, were able to present what they came to do. To set up a um, a
schedule to, that would be honored. And we began to see as well that we
also had to arrange time for this um, for the director of the center to also
share with people who were coming from other regions, educators and
administrators and people from the um, government who were coming to
observe what we were doing to also give the opportunity for what she was
doing to be um, to be shown to others. So for recognition, and also for her
own validation of um, of her investment and what she was asking from the
government as her next, as her next agenda.

Katherine: And so when we realized that as well, we um, we began to put certain
safe guards in place with our planning and we had to be very strategic and
making sure that um, that our efforts too were, and that what we had
agreed upon would happen. Um, also we had to figure out at times where
we could even host the conference. Where we could maintain some
control and equity among educators from other locations, other regions,
 who were coming to conferences. Um, because at this one center the
administrator did not want to share resources with others. She wanted to
keep the resources for her own center. And was very protective of that. So
we had to, we had to move to other locations so that we could sort of keep
peace among the administrators who were, supposedly, working together
to provide the conference with us.

Rob: Okay. All right. Um, what is your understanding of the education system in
Ukraine?

Katherine: I would have to say I usually ask Rob LeSueur about this question
because I have never visited the school while it is session. Unless it has
been at the early intervention center, I have not visited classrooms um, to
see this for myself. Um, I had not been a part of the fact finding mission
that has actually gone to observe and work as closely with educators. My
understanding early one was that children with disabilities were um
educated. Probably have some life skills in the rehab centers that were not
a part of the, um of the public school system except for in the Pahinets
Center during the um, until the, where they received services until the age
of eight. They had way too many children to service and um, the education
was not adequate.

Katherine: Um, and that many children as they got older just stayed at home. They
didn't go to schools. In one center, I mean in one um, region however, in
one of the more recent conference trips, and this one I believe was in
2015, we encountered a school system that had a pilot program going on
at a couple of schools and they had a few children who had disabilities
and they were in an inclusive classroom.

Katherine: And in 2017 the government passed a law um, mandating inclusive
education. But, what we found from um, administrators in schools districts
in Khmelnytsky was that they were going to put some children with autism
into public schools. Like 10 children, but they didn't know how to do it.
They didn't know what that looked like. And they didn't know how it was
going to work and they needed help.

Katherine: So, um Janice LeSueur and Rob LeSueur know a lot more about how this
is working in other regions. But, from what I have seen there are children
who are getting more of a life skills education through a down syndrome
center, through an autism center, um, through a center of volunteers who
are trying to provide therapy services in a private agape center that is faith
based. Um, in some of these regions, um, between these two regions.
And I understand in some of the larger cities there are centers that are
 um, more progressive than the ones that I have seen. So, that is my
current understanding, so.

Rob: And so does that differ from the system in the United States that you're
familiar with?

Katherine: Well, first of all, um, all of our legislations, I mean from PL-94.142 says
that. And IDEA stands on um, a free and appropriate education for all. And
the fact that it is not only free but it is appropriate. And so, um, I think there
is much to learn from the evolution of our special education programs um,
as it is reflected into the beginnings of inclusive education in Ukraine.

Katherine: And um, even with there being a program that in, at the university level
that actually prepares teachers to teach children with um, with disabilities.
As we have encountered there are speech therapists and there are
teachers of programs that go to universities but they don't necessarily
know how to deal with children with disabilities and they don't have the
methodology um, in their degree programs. And so, we have encountered
professors who want to take these courses to learn these skills so that
they can teach their teachers. And it's all about being proactive. It has to
start with um, with training the trainers. Which has been the basis or our
model of instruction for USNOF since we began.

Rob: Okay. And how, can you tell me how you interact with your Ukrainian
colleagues?

Katherine: Um, well, um I, we usually have tea and we have set up some meetings.
Again, I have not been as active. I am due for a trip. Um, but we have
always um, we have always interacted on both a professional and a
personal level. Um, and as we have gotten to know each other we do
have some close colleagues in the Ukrainian American Birth Defects
program, the Omni centers. And um, we have made some connections
um, with some of the universities over there and had some meetings um,
where we talked about our desires to share knowledge. Um, where we
have talked with Ukrainian colleagues about some of their initiatives.

Katherine: Um, we have always been very respectful of their therapy programs. We
learned very early on that they have a lot going on with massage and
hydrotherapy. Um, they have done, um, the last time I was there was a
whole, the baby house has been converted into a therapy center where
the, the old doctor that we dealt with um, has studied all kinds of Eastern
therapies and implemented them into his center. And he was very, very
willing if we could ever bring our students over to spend some time
 teaching them and collaborating with them. He even gave me some
advice when I was there about the direction of my dissertation. And um,
was very interested in talking about the research that we were doing.

Katherine: So, there's definitely that desire to collaborate. We just have to figure out
how to make that work. And when you're talking about developing
partnerships, whether we're teaching or co-teaching. Um, how that looks
to our universities, and what the, a lot goes down to money for tuition. Um,
availability. Um, the timing and requirements of courses and, and what
that looks like and how courses our delivered. In what modes, with what
technology, with what types of expectations. Um, what kinds of hours that
meet the requirements of our college programs and uh, that would also
um, meet the directives of, for course credits with the Ministry of Education
in Ukraine for their programs.

Rob: Okay. Have you had any challenges um, in working with um, these
Ukrainian colleagues?

Katherine: Well, my challenge is that I've not been able to deliver what they have
asked, yet. And part of that was that I was working on my dissertation and
had to get that done. Um, the other part is that um, I would say that we
have provided education for free with our conferences. And that they don't
have the ability to pay, um, and I have not figured out how to deal with that
issue. Um, we can always work on the ability to provide information and
translation of material. Um, we, we have figured out many things in that
department. But, being able to actually pay for um, being able to pay of
the course work is something that I don't quite know how to make
equitable or how to figure it out at this time.

Rob: Okay. Um, and what have you learned from your experiences in Ukraine?

Katherine: Too much to tell (laughs).

Rob: (Laughs).

Katherine: ... in a couple of sentences. I mean, I've learned a lot about um, their work
ethic. Um, their heart for all children. Um, their dedication to learning.
Their professionalism. Um, I look forward to, again, future collaborations.
Um, there's a lot with, it is very expensive to travel. And um, and again,
how do we continue to work together um, you know and really, we're only
able to provide a conference in the summer time. And it's about a week.
And we accomplish a whole lot in that time.
Katherine: Um, I feel like Ukraine's a second home. I mean it's, it's a place and a
people that um, are passionate against positive change. They own every
hardship of their country and through the war they all, they have all made
sacrifices for the good of their people. And they have a huge sense of
pride. And, it is and honor to be a part, um, to have partnered with them
and to have um, to have learned so much from them over the years. There
are people I care very, very, much about there.

Rob: Was there anything that you've learned about Ukraine that was surprising
to you?

Katherine: Well, I think some of the things that ... I think I've been impressed with how
hard they work every day. Um ... and I think I was surprised to learn about
how much they did have the desire, those people that become involved
with helping those that are less fortunate. The depth or their commitment.
The depth of their faith. Um ... those are the things that come to mind,
initially.

Rob: All right. That, that was my last question.

Katherine: Mm-hmm.

Rob: Go ahead and make sure I put this on save-