Blade Grinding 

Here is a page providing fundamental notions concerning the shape (section) of blades. Before
any decision-making during a realization, it is necessary to know how the knife will be used...
Each grind will be presented in detail, with its advantages and its inconveniences.

Grind
This term indicates both the part of the blade which gets thinner to make the edge
and the way the blade gets thinner. It is the grey area on the drawing:

Here are the different grinds:

A : Chisel or asymmetric grind.

B : Partial Flat grind (The bevel
does not rise up to the back of
the blade).
C : Full Flat grind (The bevel
rise up to the back of the
blade).
D : Hollow or Concave grind.
E : Convex grind.

The choice for grinding

depends on the use of the knife, but can be summarised to a compromise between:
Nuance of steel of the blade, cutting capacity, availability of equipment,
mechanical strenght undergone by the blade, mastery of the technique.

Blades geometry
Before detailing grinds, it is necessary to speak about the geometry of blades:
Length, height (or width), thickness. Each of these dimensions must be chosen
according to aesthetic or functional criteria.

Length

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It is the dimension which varies most from a knife to another one.
Very short (some centimeters): Small knife, neck knife, small folder.
Short (7-12 cm): Small utility, small kitchen knife, folding knife.
Average (10-15 cm): Utility, kitchen knife, big folder, small dagger.
Long (15-25 cm): Big utility, camp knife, hunting knife, dagger.
Very long (20-30 cm): Big camp knife, big hunting knife, big dagger.
Beyond (35 cm and more): Two-edged sword, machete. We begin to leave the
world of the knife...

Heigth (width)
Low (10-15 mm) : Small kitchen knife, folder small utility knife.
Medium (15-25 mm) : Kitchen knife, large folder, utility kinife, dagger.
Large (30-50 mm) : Big kitchen knife, big dagger, camp knife, hunting knife,
machete.
Very large (50 mm et plus) : Big camp knife, machete.

Thickness
Thin (1.5-2.5 mm) : Kitchen knife, small folder.
Moyen (3-4 mm) : Big kitchen knife, folder, utility, small dagger.
Thick (4-6 mm) : Dagger, camp knife, hunting knife, machete.
Very thick (6 mm et plus) : Big camp knife.

A good knife thus begins with a geometry suited to its future use.
Furthermore, the choice of the steel is to be taken into account.
For concrete examples, visit the page achievements where I usually indicate the
dimensions of blades and used steel.

General rules
For the below drawings, here is the colors legend :
> Blue : Back of the blade.
> Orange : Side of the blade not impacted by grinding.
> Green : Grind profile.
> Red : Blade edge.

Grinding is usually done in two phases.

(1) In a first phase, after forging and annealing, the chosen shape is given. A
certain thickness is kept on the edge. Count 0.5mm for the small blades and until
1.5mm for the long blades. This "reserve" allows to avoid the warping of the blade
during hardening and also to eliminate decarburised areas on the edge. This first
stage can be made with numerous means: Files, abrasive paper or disk, angle
2
grinder, backstand. The grindstone and/or the backstand contact wheel will be
more apprropriate for hollow grind.
Then, normalizations, hardening and tempering are done.
(2) It is then necessary to decrease the thickness of the edge and keep the shape of
the grind. As the steel is hardened, we cannot use any more the file... It is
necessary to decrease the edge thickness to some tenth of millimeters ("e" in
below drawings), even zero.

Points relative to the edge thickness "e" and the angle β (secondary or sharpening
angle) will be handled in a specific chapter because they are common to all the
kinds of grinds.

Flat grind
Here is a drawing showing the cross-section of a flat grind and the important
parameters.

     

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Main parameters are:
> Edge thickness "e".
> α angle, called primary primaire.
> β angle, called secondary angle.

Depending on to the wished α angle, the grind will raise up to the back of the
blade (left figure: total flat grind) or not (right figure with an bigger angle: partial
flat grind).

The α angle is usually between 3° and 7°. On a blade of 3mm thick and 20mm
width, the α angle will be 4.3° with a total flat grind.

Realization
This grind can be made with a file or on a backstand with a support to work with a
flat.
Advantages
> Easy to realize whatever is the equipment.
> Good compromise.
Inconveniences
> None.
Use
This grind is very versatile.

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Convex grind
Here is a drawing showing the cross-section of a convex grind and the important
parameters.

     

Main parameters are:

> Edge thickness "e".
> α angle, called primary primaire.This angle is measured at edge level.
> β angle, called secondary angle.

This grind can be qualified by being more or less convex, extremely almost flat or
on the contrary with a strong α angle! The α angle is usually included between 5°
and 15°, with an average value of 10°.
Realization
This grind can be made with a file or on a backstand with a floating belt. With the
file, make a partial flat grind, then round off the angle on the side. See chapter In
the practice!
Advantages
> Easy to realize whatever is the equipment.
> Very strong.
Inconveniences
> Cutting capacity a bit weak, if the convex shape is very strong.

5
Use
This grind is rather used for heavy duty blades (camp knives, machetes).

Hollow grind
Here is a drawing showing the cross-section of a hollow grind and the important
parameters.

       (Kn
ife made by Turbotec)

Main parameters are:

> Edge thiskness "e".
> The radius R.
> β angle, called secondary angle.

For this grind, the α angle is meaningless. At edge level, both sides are almost
parallel.

Realization
This grind can only be realized with a grindstone or a backstand contact wheel
(usually of a diameter from 250 to 350 mm). Many cutlers do not have several
contact wheels or grindstones at their disposal. They adapt their grinding
according to their equipment.
Advantages

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> Good cutting capacity.
Inconveniences
> Fragile (unless e is big, what does not have interest).
> Technique of realization difficult to master.
Use
This grind is rather used for light duty blades requiring high cutting ability.

Chisel (or asymmetric) grind

Here is a drawing showing the cross-section of a chisel grind and the important
parameters.

Main parameters are:

> Edge thickness "e".
> α angle, called primary primaire.
> β angle, called secondary angle.

As this grind is asymmetric, there are left-handed

and right-handed knives. The flat side is in contact
with the material to be cut, the side with the bevel
evacuates shavings or slices.

The α angle is usually included between 10° and

20°, with an average value of 15°.

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(Knife made by Turbotec - Pictures by Turbotec)

Realization
This grind can be made with a file or on a backstand with a support to work with a
flat.
Advantages
> Easy to realize whatever is the equipment.
Inconveniences
> Asymmetric. So, there are left-handed and right-handed knives.
Use
This grind is typically used on japanese hotchos and sometimes on tactical ou
utilitary knives.

Edge thickness and secondary angle

These two points are fundamental. Ideally, if we consider only the cutting ability,
the edge should have a very small thickness and a secondary angle almost zero! In
the practice, it is impossible. It would give a too fragile edge which would break at
the first cut.
It is necessary to find the good compromise between:
> Kind of grind.
> Edge thickness "e".
> Secondary or sharpening angle.

Edge thickness
In the practice, the grind is reworked after the hardening to bring the edge
thickness to its final value.
For the flat, convex or chisel grinds, the thickness will be:
> Almost zero for light duty or kitchen knives.
> 1 or 2 tenth of millimeter for utility or folding knives.
> 2 to 4 tenth of millimeter for heavy duty knives, camp knives or machetes.

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For hollow grind, the thickness will vary from some tenths of millimeter to 1
millimeter. The thickness cannot be reduced to zero, because the particular shape
of this grind would give a very fragile edge.

Secondary or sharpening angle

This angle can vary from 9° to 23° as follow:
> 9° to 11° for razor edges.
> 13° to 17° for a common use for a sliding cut.
> 19° to 23° for a use for chopping cut.
For the practical aspects and the sharpening, refer to the page on the maintenance
of knives.

N.B: Many cutlers manage the thickness of the edge and the secondary or
sharpening angle through an empirical way based on their experience, their cutting
tests and the assessment of the quality of their blades...

In the practice!
There are many factors to take into account and that are not easy to fix. Enough to
be easily disorientated... There is one opinion and manner to make that by cutler!
Then, how to follow, especially for a beginner?

That's what I recommend to start ...

> Avoid hollow grinds that requires specific equipment ad mastery.

> Avoid chisel grinds who is a little too specific.

Then, two major cases:

(A) Light duty thin blades for slippery cuts.
(B) Heavy duty thick blades for slippery or punching cuts.

> Before hardening, make a flat or lightly convex grind with a file or backstand.
(Figure 1 below).
> Leave an edge thickness of 0.5mm (Case A) or 1mm to 1.5mm (case B).
> After hardening, make it slightly convex with an abrasive disc or backstand.
("x" in Figure 2 below).
> Reduce edge thickness to almost 0 (Case B) or 0, that is, until the appearance of
a slight burr (Case A)!
> Possibly, if the original shape was a flat bevel partial break the angle on the side
of the blade. ("y" in Figure 2 below).
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> Take a sharpening angle of 11° to 15° (Case A) or 17° to 21° (Case B). (in "z" in
Figure 3 below).
> Sharpen until getting an edge of zero thickness (remove the part in red in Figure
4 below).

On these drawings, the proportions are not respected. To ease understanding, the
blade was represented much too thick.

This blade profile (slightly convex) is very classic from an historical perspective.
Other grinds are more "modern", because often relative to backstand and other
industrial facilities.

Synthesis for beginners...

Not easy to follow, so here is a general synthesis. Be careful, it is designed for
beginners and is therefore a base to start without making too many mistakes ...
The choice of grind or steel are placed in order of preference, with between square
brackets the possible options, but less recommended to start.
All dimensions are provided in millimeters.

Piemontese or two nails

Blade length: 60 --> 100
Blade height: 15 --> 25
Blade thickness: 2 --> 4
Grind kind: Convex, flat, [hollow].
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8, 100C6, (55S7).

Small utility knife

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 Blade length: 50 --> 90
Blade height: 10 --> 30
Blade thickness: 2 --> 4
Grind kind: Convex, flat, [hollow].
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8, 100C6.

Utility knife
Blade length: 100 --> 150
Blade height: 20 --> 45
Blade thickness: 3 --> 5
Grind kind: Convex, [flat].
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8, 100C6.
Big utility knife or camp knife
Blade length: 200 --> 300
Blade height: 25 --> 60
Blade thickness: 4 --> 7
Grind kind: Convex.
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8, 100C6, 55S7.

Small kitchen knife

Blade length: 50 --> 130
Blade height: 15 --> 40
Blade thickness: 2 --> 3
Grind kind: flat, convex,
chisel, [hollow].
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8,
100C6, 55S7.

Big kitchen knife

Blade length: 130 --> 250

Blade height: 25 --> 60
Blade thickness: 2 --> 4
Grind kind: Flat, convex, chisel, [hollow].
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8, 100C6, 55S7.
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Miniature (folding or fixed blade)
Blade length: 30 --> 50
Blade height: 8 --> 15
Blade thickness: 1.5 --> 2.5
Grind kind: Flat, convex.
Steel kind: XC75, 90MV8, 100C6.

Machete
Blade length: 300 --> 500
Blade height: 25 --> 60
Blade thickness: 3 --> 5
Grind kind: Convex, [flat].
Steel kind: 55S7, XC75, [90MV8], [100C6].

 VERY COOL SCANDI GRIND

POCKET KNIFE
Bushcraft folks really like the Scandi grind type knife edge. A lot of knives made in
Scandindavia are Scandi grind knives. I got the mechanism of the Enzo Birk 75 from
Brisa of Finland, a seller of lots of quality knifes. It comes in s30v or D2 steel, Scandi or
flat grind. I chose the D2 steel, Scandi grind. All I had to do is add the scales, for which I
used stabilized curly birch.

Shown above is the first stage of the Enzo Birk 75 in Scandi grind, and a BSA branded
frame lock knife with a hollow ground blade. The Mora knife is also a famous example
of a Scandi grind, and is beloved by survival types and bushcrafters both. In the typical
hollow grind knife the material at the edge is pretty thin, and thus it is easy to sharpen. A
micro bevel bevel is put on the edge and it can be very sharp. The Scandi grind doesn't
have a micro bevel at the edge. The edge is formed where the planes from each side meet.
It is sharpened by removing material from the whole entire bevel on each side.  Putting a
micro bevel on the edge of a Scandi grind knife is a huge mistake. The Scandi edge can
be sharper than a hollow grind edge, and has a lot more material supporting the edge.
Thus its far better for tough work like carving wood, and it is easy to get the factory bevel
angle on the edge when sharpening. 

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my daughter Ciera made the above diagram of knife grinds. Scandi grind on a fixed blade
knife is pretty common, but is more rare in a folding knife, and I wanted to make a
Scandi grind folding knife. I got a kit from famous Finnish knife maker Enzo. It is the
Enzo Birk 75, and its a bad assed liner lock knife.  

The frame was full of holes, and when I epoxied the scales on I had to tape all the holes
shut. It wasn't as easy as it sounds, but when finished I found that I could open the blade
with one hand, either right or left, and it snapped in place solidly. The blade releases by a
liner lock mechanism, which can be opened one handed. 

Shown above is the finished first stage. It was basically done, but it felt kind of bony, like
a popsicle stick. I wanted it to feel more like a fat little bar of soap, so I added a green
liner layer, and another layer of wood which I put some curves into. Below is the knife
with a second layer of wood, some shaping of the approach to the thumb stud, and a
lanyard with belt clip. Photos below by Lou Ann Fox.  

In-Depth Look at Knife Grinds

This page talks about the most common blade grinds. You can find the source of
this information here.
**NOTE** For those of you who may be a little confused about what blade
grinds are or what any of the pictures below represent, each of the drawn
pictures represent what the different knife grinds look like head on, as if
someone was pointing the tip of the knife directly at you. Each of the "actual"
pictures of knives are just examples of the grind being covered at the time.

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Scandi Grind

The scandi (short for Scandinavian) grind is as common as it gets. It's more often referred to
include chopping, splitting, and other rough chores. It is the simplest blade to use because the
makes its edge and angle the most obvious, and therefore the easiest to sharpen. That's why t
sharpening beginners. The downside is that if the stock (the immediate area behind the blade
grind off more and more steel in order to attain sharpness. This often requires extensive work

Hollow Grind

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As you can see, the hollow grind is slightly different from the scandi. This is due to the conc
the wide spine to make a thinner stock behind the secondary grind, which is the actual blade.
unsure of what that means. The gain is that you end up with a blade that will retain a cutting
edge grinds. The downside, however, is that you have a blade that cannot easily split wood o
that nature. Another downside is that it's harder to sharpen because the angle to the edge is ha
common grind for certain combat knives, most notably the Ghurka kukri. Straight Razors als

High Flat Grind

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A high flat grind is similar to the scandi grind save for the secondary grind. The primary grin
blade spine except for a (most likely) small, flat section nearest the blade spine. The same iss
apply to this.
Full Flat Grind

16
This blade is similar in grind appearance to the high flat, but it has no flat anywhere on the b
the secondary edge grind. The same issues with sharpening that apply to the previous two gri
Full Convex Grind

The convex grind is the dead opposite of the hollow grind.

Sharpening looks to be fairly simple. This grind is commonly seen on ax blades since the sha
forces wood and the like away from the rest of the blade which prevents it from getting stuck
Note: An ax and a splitting maul are not the same. An ax uses an actual blade driven by its w
weight to split wood and the like.

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Originally By: misfitzseat3
Revisions By: Drewblet
(If you contribute to the page and would like recognition, be sure to add your
name!)

The Flat grind:

The cross-sectional geometry becomes thick after several sharpenings, leading to large relief faces, and
heavy blade thickness. Though the flat grind is very strong, the knife must be reground at the relief face repeatedly in
order to maintain a thin cutting edge. Regrinding to make the blade thinner can usually only be done by machine as
the relief face extends deeper into the blade, and the blade finish may be ruined. The flat grind is used often on thin
folding knives and kitchen knives, and even then becomes thick after several sharpenings. Its advantage is that there
is a lot of metal behind the cutting edge, and the knife lends itself well to chopping or high impact use. But because
it's a straight wedge, it will often embed itself into materials like wood and stick there, unlike a convex or axe grind
which splits apart the wood. It is also a heavy blade, with unnecessary thickness in the midline of the blade leading to
the spine.

The Taper Grind:

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 The taper grind is usually used on thin knife blades, .0625 (1/16" or 0.16 cm), or on false edges, clips,
swages or knife blade components. You might also find this grind on thicker factory blades. Some guys call this a
convex grind, but a convex grind is a typical grind found in an axe. See the previous topic. The taper grind is easy to
grind and finish, and that is one of the reasons it's often hyped and recommended. It is far easier to taper grind a
knife than to hollow grind one. The taper can be ground on a slack belt, or with an automated pass surface grinder
under computer numerical control. This lowers the overall expense of grinding. Finishing is easier too, as crisp, clean
defined grind lines are not made, so less skill is required to make it. You might read that the taper grind is preferred
because it is stronger. Strength in the blade is determined by many factors, not just the grind type; see the topic
below. In a taper grind, the grind is usually along the blade rather than perpendicular to it. This is how most factory
kitchen knives are ground. When it is sharpened, it gets much thicker, but this is usually not much of a problem
because it is used on thin blades. I use it on my thinnest blades, like fillet knives. It is not a grind for thicker or heavier
knife blades unless you want to use your knife to chop down a tree.

It cuts textiles, wood, and foods adequately, but has much more resistance to cutting than a hollow grind.

The Hollow Grind:

The hollow grind is universally accepted as the sharpest, highest valued knife grind. Historically, the hollow
grind has the highest value across many cultures. The deserving reputation is due to the difficulty of designing,
constructing, grinding, and finishing the hollow grind accurately. If executed well, the hollow grind possesses the
thinnest cross sectional area and allows a lower relief angle, smaller relief faces, and an overall sharper edge. As the
edge is used up with repeated sharpenings, it remains thin, sometimes well into the midline of the blade, offering the
greatest longevity of any knife grind. Because the blade steel is hollowed out, it leaves a fully thick spine supporting
the blade for good strength, while reducing unnecessary weight. While it can be made thin and may not support
heavy chopping, with careful planning, design, and execution by the knifemaker, can be made well enough for light
chopping. For example, my military clients who require thin, sharp, but tough and strong blades for Combat Search
and Rescue insist on hollow grinds. For investment knives and value retention and appreciation, the hollow grind is
considered the most beautiful. It is a challenge to execute accurately and mirror finish well.

Because the hollow grind is usually thinner, it's easier to sharpen. Less time can be spent as relief faces are
small, and there is less blade material to remove to bring up an edge.

Another important advantage of the hollow grind is resistance within the cut. When a knife is used to slice
through tough, abrasive, or resistant materials, it is also wedged into the cut, creating friction. If the blade is thin, less
material is displaced and there is less friction. A thicker blade (flat ground, taper ground, or convex) must displace
more of the material in the cut, and therefore has greater friction.

19
Ultimately, the knife use dictates what geometry is used in making the knife. Only a handmade knife
and custom knife maker can adjust his grinds and profiles to the individual user or style of knife. He
can offer the variation, the diversity of materials, and the balance between geometry, hardness, and
temper that each different blade geometry requires for the knife's specific use.

Blade Grind Depth

The blade grind depth is extremely important, and if you are reading this page, you need to
know how to recognize a poor grind from a good grind. Sadly, this is one of the most neglected
conversations about modern knives, yet it is one of the most critical attributes to the knife function,
durability, and longevity. It does not matter whether the grind is hollow, flat, or convex, good
geometry should be paramount, dictated by the use of the knife, the material, and the maker's skill.

Anyone who knows knives can easily spot this major factor in a knife blade's grind; they can
learn to spot an underground blade from an overground one, and recognize amateur work and
manufacturing from the work of a professional, often just by the grind depth. A good technique is not
to look only at the grind area, but also at the spine area, and imagine the forces on this critical part of
the knife blade.

The thickness of the steel at the blade spine does play a role in the grind line's placement. For
instance, if a knife blade is very thin, you would not expect the grind area to be deep into the blade.
This can be seen in hollow ground chef's knives that are 1/8" or even 1/16" in thickness, and at first
glance, they may appear to be underground.

A very thick blade that is not wide may present as being overground, when the grind is
adequate. This is why it is important to know the thickness of the blade at the spine, and for the
maker to pass that information on to the knife client. If you are a knife client, you deserve to know all
you can about the blade and the maker's reasons for creating it the way he did. Forget about factory
knives; they won't tell you much at all about their knives.

Ideally, if the geometry is balanced, the maker of the knife should be able to use the majority
of the blade width for the grind (or bevel). He should balance the overall thickness of the blade stock
with the design pattern and grind area to create a balance between the size of the knife, the strength
of the blade spine required for a particular knife, and the longevity of the knife after repeated
sharpening. A good grind dictates the mechanical geometry, structure, format, and thus function and
longevity of the blade, and speaks volumes about a maker's practice and skill. Here is how they
shake out:

20
Note: the pattern design I chose for these drawings is my PJLT Kight, a fine and clear tactical knife with a swaged clip
point blade. The drawings include a view of the spine from the top looking down, showing a tapered tang (essential
on all well-made full-tang knives), the swaged tip, and well as the reverse side view. The drawings vary by only one
component, and that is the grind line extending down the length of the blade, identifying the grind (or bevel) area.

21
22
1. Extremely Underground: In the top drawing, I've illustrated and extremely
underground knife. Okay, this is not a knife you use to dig holes! This is what many
factories do when they are creating bad knives (which they seem to have a special
knack for). The grind is extremely shallow, and does not extend into the blade
thickness, not even approaching the midline of the blade width. You might consider
why this is prevalent on bad knives. One reason is that to grind a blade thin at the
cutting edge takes some skill. The thinner the blade is, the more likely it can dig into a
contact wheel, catch a buffer or finishing abrasive system, flex, bend, or snag. So the
first reason for doing this might be a safety concern. Another reason (more likely) is
one that us older makers learned a long time ago. If you don't grind much off the
blade, it can still be sharpened, but not more than two or three times, and then the
blade has the geometry and thickness of a cold chisel. A knife user will claim that the
knife is "used up," and may traipse right down to the store to buy another. If you have
owned a knife like this, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Since, in order to get
the knife thin again at the edge, it has to be reground, this is throwaway time. Some
may claim that the knife is extremely strong because it has such a wide, thick blade,
but this is over the top. If the knife needs that much blade flat, it's better as a shovel
than a cutting tool. It reminds me of a Bowie knife I once saw that was three inches
wide with a half inch grind height. It probably took the maker ten minutes to grind that
baby out, and he had an instant heirloom! Or he had a hammer with a chisel attached-
Simply put, an underground knife blade is quick, cheap, and easy to make, and has a
short life.
2. Underground: In this illustration, I've shown a slightly underground blade, not as
severe as number one. The grind is a bit shallow, leaving a large amount of flat in the
blade. This, just like number one, will mean a heavy blade, though combat knives tend
to lean toward this geometry because it's features a wider, stronger spine. Very severe
use knives may benefit from the meaty and substantial spine, but only wider blades
can still offer plenty of thin grind area that can be repeatedly sharpened without using
them up.
3. Normal Grind: In this drawing, the grind line illustrating the grind area is ideal. There
is still a good portion of the flat spine area to support the blade, limit lateral flexion,
and support the point while the deep grind will have many years or decades of
sharpening before the knife is used up. A good balance is made between weight,
strength, longevity, mass, and the essential thinness that enables the knife user to
keep his cutting edge angles low and sharp.
4. Overground: In this drawing, the grind termination extends up to the spine of the
blade, and this is may not be a good thing, but depends on the knife purpose and use.
The reason the blade is not as strong is because there is no flat to support the spine
along its length. This type of grind may be applicable on lighter duty knives with
extremely thin blades (think boning, carving, trimming and fillet knives), but it should
not be seen on a knife for tactical combat or heavy duty service use, simply because a
good portion of the thickness of the spine is ground away. If the knife blade got in a
bind in use, where do you think it would break? Right where the termination leads off
of the spine, you can bet on it.
5. Extremely Overground: This drawing illustrates an extremely overground knife. The
grind termination extends through the spine, thinning the blade at that point. This
happens because the maker is not paying attention, or he makes a mistake in his
approach to the grinder, or he is using the wrong diameter contact wheel, or he is just
so enthusiastic about grinding metal that he can't stop until the blade is nearly gone.
Don't laugh, I've actually seen this quite a lot. I think that some guys try to sell these
hoping no one will notice, when they should just bite the bullet and toss the blade in

23
 the trash. When a knife blade is overground this way, it will fail, an it will fail right
where the grind termination lead off has thinned the spine. Remember that grinds
happen from both sides of the blade, so the metal removed is considerable. One
would not expect a spineless knife like this to even be offered for sale, but I've seen
knives that are this severely overground as regular offerings from high dollar makers
who claim they are suitable for combat! If you see a knife that is overground this way,
you need to run the other way, and take your money with you, because the blade is
weak and most certainly will fail if it has to do any real work.

So where do you want the knife to be? Number 3 is nice, and on wider, stronger blades,
number 2 works well (think combat knives). The only time you should see number 4 is in very, very
thin and narrow caping, boning, and fillet knives. Think about the cross sectional thickness with
lateral (sideways) pressure on the blade and you can visualize whether the grind is suited to the
knife. Oh, and number 1 and 5? Don't, just don't.

If you see knives ground in a fashion that is peculiar, please, by all means, ask the maker or
manufacturer to explain why they have ground them this way. The grind is not simply an artistic and
personal way that a maker creates his blades; it has more to do with balance, longevity, strength,
materials, and geometry. You have the right to know why a particular grind is created in your effort to
find and own superior knives.

Grind geometry unrest!

Comparing factory knives to handmade custom knives is like comparing a hand-rolled Cuban cigar
to a pack of cheap smokes.

I happened to see my name coming up in a popular knife forum on the internet, and guys
were piling on defending their favorite knife blade grind geometry. They didn't like what I had to say
on my site, and were fiercely defending their opinions. It's curious that rather than ask me outright to
clarify my opinions, they chose to comment on a forum...
I felt compelled to respond:

Hello all of you who've commented. I'm sorry you didn't bother to just write and
ask me to clarify some of my points on my website, but I do appreciate the traffic and
interest.

When I write about factory knives on my site, I am talking about the cheap stuff,
most of it coming out of foreign factories. If you have a personal favorite factory or
boutique shop knife, by all means, purchase and collect those types of knives. Everyone
has a different idea and desire in fine knives.

Most of you who comment here know a great deal more than the typical public.
The public who is new to knives might simply want to know why a handmade knife is
different, and why they may wish to spend their hard-earned money on a handmade or
custom knife. Most of the knives they've seen are cheap foreign factory knives, and I'm
simply describing the differences. If you're buying a knife to use up, abuse, and
eventually throw away, that's one type of purchase. If you're buying a knife that will
appreciate year after year, that's another type of purchase. The two are very different.

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 My information on my website is simply my opinion, after having made knives for
many (30) years. It is my full time professional occupation and has been for over 20
years. My opinions are derived from having made knives for other professionals:
military, police, chefs, collectors, and museums in my career and their direct input and
feedback. These guys use knives more than I ever will, and I listen to, respect, and
continue to build knives for them the way they request. That is what being a custom
maker is all about.

If my views differ from yours, that's okay too! When I write about convex grinds,
I'm talking about axe grinds. When you are talking about convex grinds on this post, I
think you are talking about what us older makers call a "taper" grind. I think it's simply a
difference in semantics. On my site, I do mention that I make taper grinds, too, and that I
find them most useful on thinner stock blades. They do have a purpose, can be made
extremely sharp, and if they are made on thin stock have great longevity. I've made many
knives this way. I've also made axe grinds. Knives that are used to chop need to be made
this way. Not all knife grinds are alike, there is no set standard guaranteeing one is
absolutely the best grind ever. If there was, don't you think that all the other grinds would
be discarded? Any grind that has sufficient thinness can be made sharp at the cutting
edge. Any grind. Any.

The point I'm trying to illustrate on my site is that as a knife is used up, sharpened
again and again, more stock will have to be removed behind the cutting edge to keep it
sufficiently thin. If the blade is thick, you'll simply have to remove more stock. A hollow
grind is thin, so it may be able to be sharpened more often without spending a large
amount of time and effort to removing or relieving the blade behind the cutting edge. I
also state on my site that a hollow grind is not a grind suitable for chopping or high
impact, though a hollow grind, if made well, can be strong. Most guys who use a knife
professionally know that a knife is not an axe.

If I'm still entitled to my own opinion, I'll offer this: I know that guys can go on and
on about the intricacies of grind geometry and complex angles, micro crystalline
structure, wear characteristics, and steel alloy components, and these are important. My
question is: are they also looking at fit, finish, balance, design, service, and accessories?
These are what I believe sets knives apart, in addition to steel type and grind shape. I
think they are important enough that I've given them their own page on my site here.

Want to know more about obsessive-defensive knife owners? I've given them their own
section on my Business of Knifemaking page at this bookmark.

What about blade friction when cutting?

No matter how carefully the edge is honed, blades can be made sharp because they are thin at the
cutting edge.

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 Any knife grind that creates a thin enough edge can be made sharp, and can be made to cut
various materials. The shape of the blade does matter when it comes to cutting friction, and
resistance while the knife blade is deep in the cut. Just what grind has the least and most resistance
to cutting friction on the sides of the blade?

I read a comment once where the writer had claimed the convex grind or rolled edge has less
friction because it only contacts on a tangential point. This would be true if only the material being
cut has no give, no movement, no springiness to it. Also, as that material is cut, it would just open
up, not pinch, but contact rigidly at one single point. But just what material would that be?

The fact that you are cutting instead of sawing means that you are not removing any material
from the cut. In a saw cut, the teeth on the blade have a wider kerf than the blade itself, so that is
why the saw blade does not stick and create friction in the cut. Knife blades have no kerf, no material
is removed in the cutting action, so the material being cut will, of course, try to fill the cut, and push
against the sides of the blade. The thinner the blade, the less friction and resistance. A taper or
convex grind or rolled edge will push outward on the material being cut at a greater amount than any
other knife grind cross sectional geometry. A flat grind will press less, and a hollow grind offers the
thinnest blade and the least friction of any blade grind. This may seem like a small item, but in
combat knives, where great force is delivered to the blade edge, and tough fibers, textiles, and
tissue create great friction in the cut, any advantage is welcome. This is another reason nearly every
military combat professional that I make CQC and CQB knives for requests hollow ground blades,
whether the knife is straight, swept, or recurve in profile.

Please help to stop wives' tales, knife myths, and misconceptions in our trade
through education.

Hi Jay,
Sorry, not a 'serious knife purchase enquiry' at the moment.
Just, what bloody amazing work. Your knives are art!
Yes I'm looking, but I was actually doing a bit of research on ATS-34 ... (for a purchase, I'm not a
knifemaker's arse) ... and found your comments during a search.
Okay, enough dribble. Just wanted to acknowledge what you already know, your work is a step
above anything I've seen before, and I've been looking around for a long time.

Cheers,
Rodger,
Adelaide, Australia

Which steel has the greatest "tooth" for the cutting edge?
and other carbide particle nonsense

This question comes up periodically on forums, discussion boards, and in knife conversations
between knife enthusiasts and makers. The curiosity starts like this: a blade is sharpened. It cuts
and the owner (or maker) can feel that the cutting edge is roughly tearing through materials, like
paper, and the edge is compared with a second knife, either sharpened by someone else, or fresh
out of a box from a manufacturer. The second knife seems to cut smoother, with less perceived
microscopic tearing, and less chattering. The guy comparing the knife edges notices that they are
made of different steels, and therefore concludes that one steel has more microscopic "tooth" than
the other.

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 OR

Some anonymous guy on a forum who claims to be an experienced metallurgist says that the
size of a carbide particle of D2 limits how sharp a blade can get since the radius of a cutting edge is
limited to the carbide particle diameter.

OR

A maker or knife owner sharpens a bunch of knives, and in doing so, notices what he distinguishes
as differences in the cutting edges, even though the knives have similar edge thickness and
geometries, and then concludes that one steel must have more tooth than another. He throws the
idea out to other knife enthusiasts, they begin to discuss the intricacies of grain structure, grain
boundaries, bonding strength and they repeat it again and again, and even receive some agreement
about the toothy issue. The comparison and evaluation persists, because, after all, he has
experienced it himself and surely others do, too.

This is how myths get started and continue to thrive. Please, please educate
yourself and don't contribute to myths in our tradecraft!

NOTE! I used to have the idea in this section describing a the size of a singular atomic particle,
detailing the atomic particle radius, but that was a bit confusing for some readers. So I re-wrote it to
describe and detail the size of an eta-carbide grain, something that is much larger, in hopes that a
reasonable, grain-sized scale would make sense. After all, carbide structures do not appear as
singular atoms, but in grains, so this would be a more practical scale dimension.

The cutting edge smoothness or roughness is determined by one thing and one thing only:
the abrasive that was used to sharpen the blade. Carbide particle and other molecular structures are
too small to be felt, determined, or noticed at a cutting edge! In other words, this question should
sum it up: do you really think you can feel a singular crystal grain of steel?

To understand this, one has to consider and understand the actual sizes of the molecular
structure of the steel verses the sizes of abrasive particles used in sharpening. What is this person
actually feeling: the abraded (sharpened) surface of the cutting edge, or the individual molecular
crystalline lattices of the metal? If he is claiming that the steels are different, he may like to think he
is experiencing the differences in the steel crystalline structure, but is actually only comparing the
differences in the abraded surfaces of the cutting edges. He is not and can not feel a crystalline
structure of the steel. Let's compare the two for some clarity.

The metallic particle radius for an ultra fine eta-carbide is about 10 nanometers. This is small.
Incredibly small. Tremendously small. The size of a typical (fine) India Oilstone grit is about 240 grit
or 65 microns. Let's look at that from a frank and clear physics standpoint. 65 microns in grit size is
equal to 65,000 nanometers . Yes, that's one thousand times larger than a single nanometer. Even if
the molecules are grouped, we are talking about vastly different ranges of size, in completely
different physical context.

From this simple, clear fact, it's obvious that the knife guy who says he can feel the structure
of the metal particles when dragging it through paper is frankly wrong. What he is feeling is the
abrasive sharpening particle sizes which leave peaks and valleys at the cutting edge, not the
molecules of the material.

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 Let's go on some, since this concept seems to escape a lot of guys who think they know how
to feel the molecules in a cutting edge. Here are some simple comparisons.

 Most bacteria range in size of 0.2 to 2.0 micrometers (microns). You can literally fit
hundreds of thousands of them in the period at the end of a sentence (considering it
is in a font size you can read.)
 An ultra fine eta-carbide grain of chromium carbide is about 10 nanometers, so the
bacteria is about 200 times larger. If you could sharpen down to the size of the
carbide grain, you could slice the bacteria into 200 pieces. Watch out,
Streptococcus pneumoniae, I've got a knife!
 Five red blood cells could fit across the chromium carbide particle, end to end. One
big white blood cell would occupy the same space as the eta carbide grain. I think I
saw one sitting on the edge of my knife when I cut myself after sharpening last time!
 The smallest mold spores are about 1 micron. If you could make a cutting edge that
was just the thickness of a singular row of chromium carbide grains, you could cut
the mold spore into a hundred pieces with your knife. A hundred.
 You can not feel a particle of carbide any more than you can feel a singular
bacteria, mold spore, or blood cell. The whole concept is just ridiculous.

Just for fun, let's see how fine a sharpening stone would have to be to affect a cutting edge at
the level of the molecular grain of the steel blade. I'll use something we're all familiar with: the
American Grit (AISI) Standard measure. It doesn't matter what abrasive I'm talking about for our
consideration, we'll just assume that the abrasive will cut the steel, and we'll assume we can get this
abrasive particle as small as we want (of course, both of these are horrible misconceptions, but
that's another subject). 36 grit is pretty rough, and we'll establish our edge with a 60 grit stone. We'll
follow up with a 120 grit, and maybe put a very nice edge on the knife with a 240 grit. This will be
great for most cutting, and you can definitely feel a toothy hanging while cutting through a piece of
paper. Of course, a sheet of paper is about four thousandths of an inch thick, and 240 grit is about
two thousandths of an inch thick, so you can definitely feel the individual ridges and valleys of the
sharpened edge while it rips through the paper as there are two of the valleys and ridges in contact
with the paper at any given instant. You may be impressed by your tactile sensitivity, but this is not
so astounding considering the actual measurements.

Now stay with me; I'm going to delve into this deeply and I don't want to lose you.

We're not satisfied with the edge, so we continue sharpening with finer and finer grit stones.
We've got a great stone maker, perhaps from the orient, and he has magical skills bestowed upon
him because his great great great (a few more greats) ancestor made a samurai sword out of steel
way back in the 17th century, so he knows about these things... And he is willing to create stones for
us in 400 grit, 600 grit, and 1200 grit. I know you're probably not impressed with this, you can find a
belt from 3M® that goes that small. But then, he pulls out of his mystical sack a stone that is 3000
grit. You may be impressed, but I'm not, for I'm also a lapidary (in addition to knifemaker) and I can
easily get diamond belts this fine. We sharpen our knife on this stone (after refining it on all the
previous ones), and the edge actually feels dull! Yes, when we touch it, it feels like it won't cut
anything, until we look down and maybe our finger has a slice out of it! By the way, this is now
smoother and finer than any scalpel out of the sterile aluminum foil and paper package is, they stop
at about 400-600 grit! When slicing through our paper, the edge now feels very smooth, with no
tooth at all. It's slick and very sharp, and will deliver the best cutting possible, yet people will not
perceive this as sharp, since it does not snag, hang, tear, or tug as the individual valleys and ridges
are simply too small to feel.

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 But let's go on down there, down to where the guy who says he can tell the difference in steel
types would live, down where the molecules are different (and he can tell this by cutting a piece of
paper...ahem). Our mystical stone maker pulls out an 8000 grit stone, and we are starting to be
impressed. But hold the phone; DMT® (Diamond Machining Technology) Corporation in
Massachusetts makes just such a diamond stone for sharpening knives! Really! So our mystic
scowls and pulls out a 14,000 grit stone and nods knowingly. Wait; I'm not impressed. I use diamond
grit at 14k for my leather wheels to finish rock. So he sighs and pulls out what is perhaps the finest
grit stone we have ever seen or imagined, and it's 50,000 grit. The lapidary in me smiles; I have one
of those belts, made by 3M®, and it feels slick as glass. We sharpen our knife with it, an behold, we
have a bright mirror polish on our edge. If we could do this, it would be enormously smooth. But still,
it's not as small as the molecule so let's get our mystic working on the ultimate stone. He gives us a
100,000 grit. Nope, 3M® makes that too, and now we are about seven thousand times finer than our
sheet of paper. That means that while the blade is in the paper we're cutting, there are 7142 actual
ridges and valleys in contact with the paper at any given instant while we are cutting.

Are you getting this?

How fine of a stone would you need to cut at the level of the individual grains? Let's take a
fine eta-carbide grain because that is one you would find in a well-made custom knife out of a high
alloy tool steel. It's 10 nanometers. Our 100,000 grit stone is 0.25 microns. That's equal to 250
nanometers, which could mean that there are 25 grains of our eta-carbide across the thickness of
the cutting edge. But we want to get down to one grain in thickness, just one of our smallest grains
that you would typically find in a properly processed, cryogenically treated and aged high alloy
chromium stainless steel knife blade. So, I need a stone that is .01 microns in grit size or a
2,500,000 grit stone.

That means that if we can sharpen our blade on this 2.5 million grit stone, there would be
101,600 ridges in contact with that sheet of paper as we cut it at any given instant. Yes, that's one
hundred and one thousand, six hundred little teeny things that our guy thinks he can feel with his
bare hand at the granular level in contact with the paper! Even if the knifemaker completely missed
the heat treating, and the result was the larger 300 nanometer carbide grains, there would be 3386
grains in contact with the paper. And he could feel those as he drags his knife through?

"Yeah, the edge was fine but I felt a big grain hang up at about the 2873rd position."

Maybe the guy is feeling the grains as they hang on the individual 10 micrometer diameter
fibers of the paper!. Since there would be 1000 ultra fine eta carbide grains across each individual
fiber; yeah, that's reasonable ...Sigh...

Do you now see how utterly ridiculous the claim of feeling tooth or carbide structure of
different steels in cutting?

It's the sharpening stone you're feeling, dummy.

You can't feel the difference in the molecular structure of a cutting edge.

What you feel is the sharpening stone grit size and technique.

It's humorous to think that there are actually stones that go down to 30,000 sold for
sharpening kitchen knives, and there are guys scrubbing away at mirror polishes on cutting edges,
but this is also total bunk  and a waste of time. I'll get into that in great detail when I discuss actual

29
working cutting edges in my upcoming book, but not here, I don't want to spoil it for you. Hint: there
is a reason that scalpels are only sharpened to about 400 grit...

If you are a thinking person, and have understood this section, then you're probably already
concluding that guys talking and writing about grain size, grain boundaries, grain bonding, and their
effect on a cutting edge is not something they can perceive, not at all. And guys turning their cutting
edges into a mirror are just playing at metal finishing on a microscopic scale. Unless they have an
electron microscope and full access to a complete tribological equipment laboratory, they won't be
able to recognize any difference in cutting via broken grains, un-bonded grains, boundary faults,
interferences of individual crystalline structures, or any of the other ridiculous things people discuss
when they ignore a badly designed, poorly constructed knife. These are the musings of guys who, if
they really did understand knives and blades, would be much more concerned about the correct
grind geometry to produce a worthwhile, durable, and long lasting edge on a knife blade that is
reasonable to sharpen, the only service that a knife owner needs to perform. They would be
concerned about carbon steel blades rusting and corroding in their food, not the fineness of the
Japanese water stone on low-grade alloys with a beaten, dark, and pitted finish on the blade flats.
But then, how would you appear more knowledgeable than others if you couldn't discuss knives with
"grain boundary issues?" Sigh...

Please help to stop wives' tales, knife myths, and misconceptions in our trade
through education.

Mr. Fisher, 
Thank you for ruining me. I was blissfully happy in my ignorance. Now through your fantastically
informational website I have become a little less ignorant on knives, steel and what a true custom
knife should be.
Wow! You are an artist. Period. Knife, sheath, stone and photography are extremely difficult to
surpass.
I found your site doing a search on Buck Knives steel. I had noticed they didn't look or perform like
my old, old, old ones. 420HC vs. 440c. Reading a few forums, I immediately knew I was reading
opinions and bunk, not facts. Eureka!!! 440C a love hate relationship. Now I know facts. The
knowledge I have gained in a short time has really, really been more than enjoyable. The carbide
molecule sharpening too funny!!! Ignorance can be cured.
      One day soon I hope to find the funds.

Thank you Sir.

Chris Williams
Red Bank, MS

The grind is more than the cutting edge!

When someone says "razor sharp," they are comparing the edge to a hollow ground straight razor of
old.

Yes, it's true, there is much more to the knife grind than the cutting edge alone. Please take
some time to familiarize yourself with the terms on my Knife Anatomy Page. In my upcoming book I'll
go into much greater detail, but the grist is this: the grind has a termination (plunge) and a lead-off
(at the spine). These two areas are immensely important to the overall strength and usability of the
knife blade and its longevity and value. The grind termination of a flat grind is often very squared off,
as it is the easiest way to form this area. Guys even call it a shoulder which is supposed to justify

30
their practice in squaring-off the termination, but nothing could be worse than sharp angles in this
area! Also the shoulder is a completely different component on the tang of a hidden tang knife or
sword, so the use of the word in this definition is sloppy and incorrect.

Think of how the grind termination is formed on both sides of the knife. If you have a deep
grind which cuts through and removes most of the blade thickness at that point, the knife will be
much more subject to breakage right there at the grind termination! This is why I think it's critical to
have a gentle, curving, sweeping grind termination, so that stresses at this critical point are reduced,
and spread over a meaty, thick part of the spine. By the way, nearly all factory knives have sharp
grind terminations, leading to extreme weakness in this area. This is a simple artifact of the
automated or unskilled effort to grind a knife blade and is a sign of a poorly constructed knife overall.

The second component is the lead-off. The most used part of a knife is the first two inches.
The lead-off and how a maker handles this area is important to point strength, point sharpness, and
point longevity. Please remember that the point is the weakest part of the knife. Any knife point can
be broken. To prevent breakage, a lot of factories and makers leave the point very thick with a short
lead-off. Sure, you have a thick point, the point is stronger. But what about after you sharpen the
knife three or four times? With a thick lead-off, sharpening will yield a cold chisel-shaped geometry
and a poor cutting angle, which will make the knife user apply more pressure in the cut or piercing
activity, and more pressure applied will hasten point breakage or slippage, causing a nasty accident.
In order to compensate and thin the knife sufficiently, steel has to be relieved behind the cutting
edge, and the profile shape of the knife can be dramatically altered when this is done.

Some makers tend to grind knife blades thickly, some grind them thin. I'm a fan of thinner
blades, because of longevity, cutting geometry, and value. I do not recommend whacking down the
oaks in your back yard with one of my knives, because a knife is for cutting, and an axe is for
chopping. The modern knife user knows this, and often carries a small camp saw for just such a
purpose.

Confusion about the grind termination!

It's clear that there is rampant confusion, misrepresentation (lies), and folly in consideration
and discussion of the geometry of the knife blade thickness at the grind termination. By the way, I
don't like to use the sloppy term "plunge," it's a verb, and not a noun, but it's as crude and non-
specific as calling a thumb rise (where the spine rises to meet the thumb) a jimpy jump, or other
such cutesy and guttural sloppy nonsense. Since when do handmade knives had jimping, anyway?
In the world of handmade knives, jimping is an outright lie, as jimping is defined as being done by a
machine. More on all these pesky terms on my website definitions list.

Back to the grind termination: Let's call this area exactly what it is. It's the area where the
grinder (the knifemaker) stops grinding (terminates) at the ricasso. This is a difficult area for most
makers to establish and finish, as the sweeping, rounded form of the termination (the curve) is
established in actually three individual directional controls, all offhand. No wonder guys just square it
off with a jig and a flat platen sander; I get it; it's easier and faster with less offhand control or skill
necessary. Consider that the skilled hand grinder (the knifemaker) has to match both sides of the
blade offhand and it is easy to see an error between sides when each eye looks right down the point
at the grind lines while rotating the knife. This set of curved and scalloped concave areas can't be
completed with jigs and holders; and I'll describe the complexities and three axis and varying
concavity control in my book. Since grinding it square (typical of disc or small belt grinding on a
hardware store sanding machine made for wood), that will weaken the blade-to-handle junction
(detailed in the topic in this section above), it's a tough area to grind and finish. What I didn't write
about above is the grind termination's relationship to the relief, the actual cutting edge, and blade

31
thickness between the choil and the edge. So, for all of you wondering how I've learned about this,
hold on, I'm going to get a bit deeper.

The hand can do an amazing set of things, and I can tell within the first three knives if a new
maker is able to establish the complex relationship of balanced force applications while standing in
front of a grinding belt going 55 miles an hour. Oh, and he's got to switch sides and do exactly the
same thing on both sides with opposite hands. The grind is all about generalized thickness behind
the cutting edge. I said generalized because the hand cannot control like a machine, just close to it
(if you've got a lot of skill and practice).

This generalized thickness is determined by the knifemaker. He can make a blade thick for
strength, or thinner for a lower sharpening angle and a sharper edge. And in unique form, he can
also vary the thickness of his blade along its length. Some people think that the thickness of the
blade just behind the cutting edge should be as thin, uniform, and regular as a machine. Why?
Because then, it looks machine made, that's why! This is a stubborn concept and it's time it left our
trade. There is a difference between a machine-made knife blade and a handmade one and this
critical area is one place this can be demonstrated.

The knife owner wants as much cutting edge length as possible. This I've learned in over
three decades of knifemaking; I've never had a guy tell me that the knife had too much edge length
and to please make more of the blade length useless. By the way, any length of blade at the
ricasso is useless, and history shows us that knives have been built for centuries that limit, restrict,
or even repurpose this area because, frankly, it's not blade, and it's not handle. So, cutting edge
length maximized is the first concern of the knifemaker who wishes to satisfy his clients needs.

Secondly, and most important, the reason a maker chooses to leave this area thick is one of
strength. If the blade has a deep choil, it's easy to see why you would want additional thickness in
this area, it supports a cutting edge at its very termination, the area that, unfortunately some call
a heel, which really only exists on heel-shaped blades like big chef's knives. Because I know that
this area of the knife can experience intense forces, I choose to make my knife blades thicker there,
to add strength.

To the unaccustomed, this appears as a general widening of the relief, the area that is ground
to establish the thickness behind the cutting edge. You can't hardly see the actual edge in most
photos, usually only the relief. By the way, this is not some bevel; it's called a relief. This denotes
increased thickness of the blade, because usually, the blade is relieved at the same angle along its
length so that the owner can more easily sharpen it. This little thickening of the blade can even be
seen on my tactical blades with serrations, indicated by longer serration cuts higher into the blade
because the blade is thicker at this location.

This area is critical to blade-to-handle strength, and is second in concern only to the point.
The pressures that can be exerted there are immense, and knife users always bear down there
rather than the point, because the know a thin point can break. So I build them thick there, that is my
desire and choice. If you've ever seen this area fractured, you'll understand why I do it this way. It
creates a half-moon circle of broken-out metal, and the knife is then valueless and irreparable. I don't
want to chance it, and I've grown to like the gentle curves and elegant sweeping nature of the relief
width. Handmade, not machine-imitating. You can see it in just about every knife, like the one below.
It's almost like the blade has a bit of a smile...

Back to Topics

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