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- "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster,
-“不要和怪物战斗 以免你变成怪物

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and if you gaze into the abyss,
如果你凝视深渊

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the abyss gazes also into you."
深渊也凝视着你 ”

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- Right, but I would say,
-对 但我想说

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bring it on.
来吧

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If you gaze into the abyss long enough,
如果你凝视深渊足够长的时间

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you see the light, not the darkness.
你看到的是光明 而不是黑暗

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- Are you sure about that?
-你确定吗？

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- I'm betting my life on it.
-我把我的生命押在上面

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- The following is a conversation with Jordan Peterson,
-以下是与乔丹·彼得森的对话

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an influential psychologist, lecturer, podcast host,
一位有影响力的心理学家、讲师、播客主持人

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and author of "Maps of Meaning",
以及“意义地图”、
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12 Rules For Life" and "Beyond Order."
生活的 12 条规则”和“超越秩序”的作者

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This is the Lex Fridman podcast,
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客

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to support it please check out our sponsors
要支持它 请查看我们的赞助商

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in the description.
在描述中

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And now dear friends, here's Jordan Peterson.
现在亲爱的朋友们 这是乔丹·彼得森

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Dostoevsky wrote in "The Idiot",
陀思妥耶夫斯基在《白痴》中写道

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spoken through the character of Prince Myshkin
通过梅什金王子的角色来表达

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that beauty will save the world.
这种美将拯救世界

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Solzhenitsyn actually mentioned this
索尔仁尼琴实际上提到了这一点

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in his Nobel Prize acceptance speech.
在他的诺贝尔奖获奖感言中

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What do you think does Dostoevsky meant by that?
你认为陀思妥耶夫斯基的意思是什么？

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Was he right?
他是对的吗？

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- Well,
-嗯

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I guess it's the divine that saves the world,
我想是上帝拯救了世界

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let's say, you could say that by definition.
比方说 你可以根据定义这么说

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And then you might say, "Well,
然后你可能会说 “嗯

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are there pointers to that which will save the world
有没有什么能拯救世界的指针

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or that which eternally saves the world?"
或者永远拯救世界的指针？”

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And the answer to that in all likelihood is yes.
答案很可能是肯定的

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And that's maybe truth and love and justice
这可能是真理、爱和正义

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and the classical virtues, beauty perhaps in some sense
还有古典美德 也许在某种意义上的美

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foremost among them.
其中最重要的

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That's a difficult case to make, but definitely a pointer.
这是一个很难理解的案例 但绝对是一个指针

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- Which direction is the arrow pointing?
-箭头指向哪个方向？

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- Well, the arrow's pointing up.
-嗯 箭头指向上方

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And no, I think that that which it points to is,
不 我认为它指向的是

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what beauty points to, it transcends beauty.
美指向的是 它超越了美

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It's more than beauty.
它不仅仅是美

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- And that speaks to the divine.
-这与神圣有关

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- It points to the divine.
-它指向神圣

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Yeah, and I would say again by definition,
是的 我想根据定义再说一遍

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'cause we could define the divine in some real sense.
因为我们可以在某种真正意义上定义神圣

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So one way of defining the divine is what is divine to you
所以定义神圣的一种方法是什么对你来说是神圣的

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is your most fundamental axiom.
是你最基本的公理

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And you might say, "Well, I don't have a fundamental axiom."
你可能会说 “嗯 我没有一个基本公理 ”

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Then I would say, "That's fine."
然后我会说 “没关系 ”

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But then you're just confused
但你只是困惑了

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'cause you have a bunch of contradictory axioms.
因为你有一堆矛盾的公理

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And you might say, "Well, I have no axioms at all."
你可能会说 “嗯 我根本没有公理 ”

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And then I'd say, "Well, you're just epistemologically
然后我会说 “嗯 你只是认识论上的

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ignorant beyond comprehension if you think that,
无知到无法理解 如果你这么想

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'cause that's just not true at all."
因为那根本不是真的 ”

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- So you don't think a human being
-所以你不认为一个人

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can exist within contradictions?
可以存在于矛盾中？

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- Well, yeah we have to exist within contradiction,
-嗯 是的 我们必须存在于矛盾中

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but when the contradictions make themselves manifest,
但是当矛盾自我表现出来时

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say in confusion with regard to direction,
比如说在方向上的困惑
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then the consequence of that technically is anxiety
那么技术上的后果是焦虑

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and frustration and disappointment
沮丧和失望

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and all sorts of other negative emotions.
以及各种其他负面情绪

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But the cardinal negative emotion signifying
但最重要的负面情绪意味着

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multiple pathways forward is anxiety.
多条前进的道路是焦虑

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It's an entropy signal.
这是一个熵信号

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- But you don't think that kind of entropy signal
-但你不认为这种熵信号

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can be channeled into beauty, into love?
可以转化为美 转化为爱？

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Why does beauty and love have to be clear, ordered, simple?
为什么美和爱必须是清晰的 有序的 简单的？

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- Well, I would say it probably doesn't have to be...
-嗯 我想说它可能不一定是…

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It can't be reduced to clarity and simplicity
它不能被简化为清晰和简单

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because when it's optimally structured,
因为当它被优化结构时
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it's a balance between order and chaos.
它是秩序和混乱之间的平衡

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Not order itself.
不是秩序本身

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If it's too ordered, if music is too ordered,
如果它太有序 如果音乐太有序

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it's not acceptable.
这是不可接受的

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It sounds like a drum machine.
它听起来像一台鼓机

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It's too repetitive. It's too predictable.
它太重复了 太可预测了

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It has to have, well, it has to have some fire in it.
它必须有 嗯 它必须有一些火在里面

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- Yes. - Along with the structure.
-是的 -连同结构

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I was in Miami doing a seminar on Exodus
我在迈阿密做一个关于出埃及记的研讨会

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with a number of scholars.
和一些学者在一起

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And this is a beauty discussion.
这是一个美丽的讨论

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When Moses first encounters the burning bush,
当摩西第一次遇到燃烧的灌木丛时

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it's not a conflagration that demands attention.
这不是一场需要注意的大火

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It's something that catches his attention.
这是引起他注意的东西

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It's a phenomena and that means to shine forth.
这是一种现象 意味着发光

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And Moses has to stop and attend to it and he does.
摩西必须停下来关注它 他做到了

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And he sees this fire that doesn't consume the tree
他看到的火不会吞噬树

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and the tree, the tree is a structure, right?
树 树是一个结构 对吗？

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It's a tree like structure. It's a branching structure.
它是一个类似树的结构 它是一个分支结构

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It's a hierarchical structure.
它是一个层次结构

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It's a self-similar structure.
它是一个自我相似的结构

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It's a fractal structure, and it's the tree of life
它是一个分形结构 它是生命之树

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and it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
它是善恶知识之树

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And the fire in it is the transformation
其中的火是转变

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that's always occurring within every structure.
这总是发生在每个结构中

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And the fact that the fire doesn't consume the bush
事实上 火不会吞噬灌木

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in that representation is an indication of the balance
在这种表现中 是一种平衡的标志

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of transformation with structure.
结构的转变

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And that balance is presented as God.
这种平衡被呈现为上帝

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And what attracts Moses to it, in some sense, is the beauty.
从某种意义上说 吸引摩西的是它的美丽

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Now it's the novelty and all that,
现在是新奇和所有这些

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but like a painting is like a burning bush.
但是像一幅画就像燃烧的灌木

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That's a good way of thinking about it. A great painting.
这是一个很好的思考方式 一幅伟大的画

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It's too much for people often.
对人们来说太多了

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My house was and will soon be again,
我的房子过去是 很快就会再次是

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completely covered with paintings inside.
里面完全被绘画覆盖

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And it was hard on people to come in there
人们很难进去

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because, well my mother, for example,
因为 嗯 比如我妈妈

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say, well, "Why would you wanna live in a museum?"
说 嗯 “你为什么想住在博物馆里？”

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And I'd think, well, I would rather live in a museum
我想 嗯 我宁愿住在博物馆里

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than anywhere else in some real sense.
而不是其他任何真正意义上的地方

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But beauty is daunting.
但是美是令人生畏的

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It scares people.
它让人害怕

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They're terrified of buying art, for example,
例如 他们害怕购买艺术品

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because their taste is on display
因为他们的品味被展示出来了

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and they should be terrified
他们应该害怕

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because generally people have terrible taste.
因为通常人们的品味很差
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Now that doesn't mean they shouldn't foster it
这并不意味着他们不应该培养它

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and develop it but...
发展它 但是…

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And when you put your taste on display,
当你展示你的品味时

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it really exposes you.
它真的暴露了你

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- Even to yourself as you walk past it?
-甚至当你走过它的时候对你自己？

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- Oh definitely. - Every day.
-哦 当然 -每天

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- Absolutely. - This is who I am.
-当然 -这就是我

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- Yeah, well, and look how mundane that is
-是的 好吧 看看这有多平凡

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and look how trite it is and look at how cliche it is
看看它有多陈腐 看看它有多陈词滥调

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and look at how sterile or too ordered it is or too chaotic.
看看它有多无菌 有多有序 有多混乱

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- Or how quickly you start to take it for granted
-或者你有多快开始认为这是理所当然的

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because you've seen it so many times.
因为你已经看过很多次了
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- [Jordan] Well, if it's a real piece of art,
-[·乔丹]嗯 如果这是一件真正的艺术品

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that doesn't happen.
那不会发生

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- You notice the little details.
-你注意到小细节

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- The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
-整体大于部分的总和

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I mean, there are images, religious images in particular
我是说 有图像 尤其是宗教图像

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so we could call them deep images
所以我们可以称之为深度图像

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that people have been unpacking for 4,000 years
人们已经打开包装 4000 年了

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and still have, I'll give you an example.
现在仍然有 我给你举个例子

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This is a terrible example.
这是一个可怕的例子

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So I did a lecture series on Genesis
所以我做了一个关于创世纪的系列讲座

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and I got a lot of it unpacked, but by no means all of it.
我打开了很多包装 但绝不是全部

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When God kicks Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden,
当上帝把亚当和夏娃踢出伊甸园时

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he puts cherubim with flaming swords at the gate
他把带着燃烧之剑的基路伯放在门口

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to stop human beings from reentering paradise.
阻止人类重返天堂

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I thought, what the hell does that mean, cherubim?
我想 这到底是什么意思 基路伯？

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And why do they have flaming swords? I don't get that.
为什么他们有燃烧之剑？我不明白

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What is that exactly?
那到底是什么？

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And then I found out from Matthew Pageau
然后我从马修·佩吉奥那里发现

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who wrote a great book on symbolism in Genesis
他在《创世纪》中写了一本关于象征主义的好书

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that cherubim are the supporting monsters of God.
基路伯是上帝的支持怪物

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It's a very complicated idea.
这是一个非常复杂的想法

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And that they're partly a representation of that
它们部分地代表了这一点

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which is difficult to fit into conceptual systems.
这很难融入概念系统

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They've also got an angelic or demonic aspect,
它们也有天使或恶魔的一面

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take your pick.
随你选择

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Why do they have flaming swords?
为什么他们有燃烧之剑？

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Well, a sword is a symbol of judgment
嗯 剑是审判的象征

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and the separation of the wheat from the chaff,
小麦和谷壳的分离

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use a sword to cut away, to cut away and to carve.
用剑去切割 去切割 去雕刻

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And a flaming sword is not only that which carves,
燃烧的剑不仅仅是雕刻的剑

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it's that which burns.
是燃烧的东西

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And what does it carve away and burn?
它雕刻和燃烧的是什么？

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Well, you wanna get into paradise?
嗯 你想进入天堂吗？

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It carves away everything about you that isn't perfect.
它雕刻掉你身上所有不完美的东西

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And so what does that mean?
那这意味着什么？

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Okay, well, here's part of what it means.
好吧 好吧 这是它的一部分意思

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This is a terrible thing.
这是一件可怕的事情

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So you could say that the entire Christian narrative
所以你可以说整个基督教叙事

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is embedded in that image.
都嵌入了这个形象

170
00:07:43,860 --> 00:07:45,000
Why?
为什么？

171
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,570
Well, let's say that flaming swords are a symbol of death.
嗯 假设燃烧的剑是死亡的象征

172
00:07:48,570 --> 00:07:50,760
That seems pretty obvious.
这似乎很明显

173
00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,430
Let's say further that they're a symbol
让我们进一步说 它们是一个象征

174
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of apocalypse and hell.
启示录和地狱

175
00:07:56,910 --> 00:07:59,550
That doesn't seem completely unreasonable.
这似乎并不完全不合理

176
00:07:59,550 --> 00:08:00,933
So here's an idea.
所以这里有一个想法

177
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Not only do you have to face death,
你不仅必须面对死亡
178
00:08:04,770 --> 00:08:06,990
you have to face death and hell
你必须面对死亡和地狱

179
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before you can get to paradise.
在你到达天堂之前

180
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Hellish judgment and all that's embedded in that image.
地狱般的判断和嵌入在那个形象中的一切

181
00:08:13,530 --> 00:08:16,620
And a piece of art with an image like that
一件有这样图像的艺术品

182
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has all that information in it.
里面有所有的信息

183
00:08:18,780 --> 00:08:22,620
And it shines forth in some fundamental sense.
它在某种基本意义上发光

184
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It reaches into the back tendrils of your mind
它深入你思想的后卷须

185
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at levels you can't even comprehend and grips you.
在你甚至无法理解的水平上抓住你

186
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I mean, that's why people go to museums
我是说 这就是为什么人们去博物馆

187
00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:33,900
and gaze at paintings they don't understand.
凝视他们不理解的画

188
00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:35,370
And that's why they'll pay...
这就是为什么他们会付钱…

189
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What's the most expensive objects in the world?
世界上最昂贵的物品是什么？
190
00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:39,750
If it's not carbon fiber racing yachts,
如果不是碳纤维赛车游艇

191
00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:42,930
it's definitely classic paintings, right?
这绝对是经典绘画 对吧？

192
00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:45,750
It's high level technological implements
这是高水平的技术工具

193
00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:47,100
or it's classic art.
或者是古典艺术

194
00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:48,960
Well, why are those things so expensive?
为什么这些东西这么贵？

195
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,870
Why do we build temples to house the images?
为什么我们要建造寺庙来存放这些图像？

196
00:08:51,870 --> 00:08:54,547
Even secular people go to museums.
即使是世俗的人也去博物馆

197
00:08:54,547 --> 00:08:55,830
"I'm secular."
“我是世俗的 ”

198
00:08:55,830 --> 00:08:56,887
Well, are you in a museum?
嗯 你在博物馆吗？

199
00:08:56,887 --> 00:08:58,507
"Yes." Are you looking at art?
“是的 ”你在看艺术吗？

200
00:08:58,507 --> 00:08:59,460
"Yes."
“是的 ”

201
00:08:59,460 --> 00:09:03,810
Well, what makes you think you're secular then?
那么 是什么让你认为你是世俗的呢？

202
00:09:03,810 --> 00:09:07,470
- It's arguable that the thing many, many centuries from now
-有争议的是 许多许多世纪后的事情

203
00:09:07,470 --> 00:09:09,690
that will remain of all of human civilization
它将留在所有人类文明中

204
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will be our art.
将是我们的艺术

205
00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:12,990
Not even the words.
甚至连文字都没有

206
00:09:12,990 --> 00:09:15,420
- Well, you know, a book has remained
-嗯 你知道 一本书留下了

207
00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:16,650
a very long time, right?
很长一段时间 对吧？

208
00:09:16,650 --> 00:09:18,564
The biblical readings. - Not that long.
圣经读物 -没那么长

209
00:09:18,564 --> 00:09:22,860
- No, that's right. - But that's in the full arc
-不 没错 -但那是完整的弧线

210
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of living organisms. - Yeah.
生命有机体 -是的

211
00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:25,253
- Perhaps will not-
-也许不会-

212
00:09:25,253 --> 00:09:27,390
- Well, we have images that are,
-嗯 我们有图像

213
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we have artistic images that are at least 50,000 years old,
我们有至少 5 万年前的艺术图像

214
00:09:30,750 --> 00:09:32,430
right, that have survived.
对 幸存下来了

215
00:09:32,430 --> 00:09:34,410
And some of those are,
其中一些是

216
00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:36,780
they're already profound in their symbolism.
它们的象征意义已经很深刻了

217
00:09:36,780 --> 00:09:38,520
- By we, do you mean humans? - Yeah.
-我们 你是说人类吗？-是的

218
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:43,520
We found them and they've lasted that long.
我们找到了他们 他们已经持续了那么久

219
00:09:44,759 --> 00:09:47,253
And then think about Europe.
然后想想欧洲

220
00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:49,800
Secular people all over the world
世界各地的世俗人士

221
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,930
make pilgrimages to Europe.
去欧洲朝圣

222
00:09:51,930 --> 00:09:53,400
Well, why?
为什么？

223
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,200
Because of the beauty.
因为美丽

224
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,740
Obviously, I mean, that's self-evident,
显然 我的意思是 这是不言自明的
225
00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:01,260
and it's partly because there are things in Europe
这部分是因为欧洲有些东西

226
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that are so beautiful they take your breath away, right?
它们太美了 让你窒息 对吧？

227
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:04,620
They make your hair stand on end.
它们让你毛骨悚然

228
00:10:04,620 --> 00:10:06,320
They fill you with a sense of awe.
它们让你充满敬畏感

229
00:10:07,826 --> 00:10:10,410
And we need to see those things.
我们需要看到这些东西

230
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It's not optional.
这不是可选的

231
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We need to see those things.
我们需要看到这些东西

232
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The cathedrals.
大教堂

233
00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:15,570
I was in the cathedral in Vienna
我在维也纳的大教堂

234
00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:17,790
and it was terribly beautiful, you know?
它非常漂亮 你知道吗？

235
00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:19,020
- Terribly beautiful. - Well,
-非常漂亮 -嗯

236
00:10:19,020 --> 00:10:20,100
it was terribly beautiful.
它非常漂亮
237
00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:21,717
- Is beauty painful for you is?
-美丽对你来说是痛苦的吗？

238
00:10:21,717 --> 00:10:24,320
Is that the highest form of beauty?
这是美丽的最高形式吗？

239
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,120
It really challenges you. - Oh, definitely.
它真的挑战你 -哦 绝对是

240
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:27,953
Yeah. Yeah.
是的 是的

241
00:10:27,953 --> 00:10:29,970
I got a good analysis of the Statue of David,
我对大卫雕像进行了很好的分析

242
00:10:29,970 --> 00:10:30,990
Michelangelo statue,
米开朗基罗雕像

243
00:10:30,990 --> 00:10:34,110
says, "You could be far more than you are."
说 “你可以远远超过你 ”

244
00:10:34,110 --> 00:10:35,940
That's what that statue says. (Lex laughing)
雕像是这么说的 （莱克斯笑）

245
00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:38,560
And this cathedral, we went down into
我们走进了这座大教堂

246
00:10:39,557 --> 00:10:43,470
the understructure of it and there were three floors
它的底层 有三层

247
00:10:43,470 --> 00:10:46,350
of bones from the plague.
瘟疫的骨头

248
00:10:46,350 --> 00:10:47,640
And there they all are.
他们都在那里

249
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,190
And then that cathedral's on top of it.
然后大教堂在它的顶部

250
00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:52,593
It's no joke to go visit a place like that.
去参观这样的地方可不是开玩笑的

251
00:10:53,558 --> 00:10:56,430
It rattles you to the core.
它会让你心惊肉跳

252
00:10:56,430 --> 00:11:01,080
And our religious systems have become
我们的宗教体系已经变得

253
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,450
propositionally dubious,
命题可疑

254
00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:05,370
but there's no arguing with the architecture,
但是没有与建筑争论

255
00:11:05,370 --> 00:11:08,760
although modern architects like to with their sterility
尽管现代建筑师喜欢他们的无菌

256
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,523
and their giant middle fingers erected everywhere.
和他们巨大的中指竖起来无处不在

257
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,740
But beauty is a terrible pointer to God.
但是美丽是指向上帝的可怕指针

258
00:11:16,740 --> 00:11:18,307
And you know, a secular person will say,
你知道 一个世俗的人会说

259
00:11:18,307 --> 00:11:19,500
"Well, I don't believe in God."
“嗯 我不相信上帝 ”

260
00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:22,173
It's like, have it your way.
就像 随你便

261
00:11:23,742 --> 00:11:26,820
You cannot move forward into the unforeseen horizon
你不能前进到不可预见的地平线

262
00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:29,940
of the future except on faith.
除了信仰

263
00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:31,410
And you might say, "Well, I have no faith."
你可能会说 “嗯 我没有信仰 ”

264
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It's like, well, good luck with the future then,
这就像 好吧 那祝你未来好运

265
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because what are you then?
因为那时你是什么？

266
00:11:34,950 --> 00:11:38,400
Nihilistic and hopeless and anxiety ridden.
虚无主义、绝望和焦虑

267
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,100
And if not, well, something's guiding you forward,
如果不是 那么 有些东西在指引你前进

268
00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:43,620
it's faith in something or multiple things,
这是对某事或多件事的信仰

269
00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:45,990
which just makes you a polytheist,
这只会让你成为多神论者

270
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which I wouldn't recommend.
我不推荐

271
00:11:48,180 --> 00:11:51,540
- Well, let me ask you one short lived
-好吧 让我问你一个短暂的

272
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biological meat bag to another,
生物肉袋到另一个

273
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,733
who is God then?
那么谁是上帝？

274
00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:00,300
Let's try to sneak up to this question
让我们试着偷偷靠近这个问题

275
00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:01,620
if it's at all possible.
如果有可能的话

276
00:12:01,620 --> 00:12:05,040
Is it possible to even talk about this?
有可能谈论这个吗？

277
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:06,510
- Well, it better be because otherwise
-嗯 最好是因为否则

278
00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:09,000
there's no communicating about it, right?
没有关于它的交流 对吗？

279
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,360
It has to be something that can be brought down to earth.
它必须是可以被带到现实中的东西

280
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,730
- Well, we might be too dumb to bring it down.
-嗯 我们可能太愚蠢了 不能把它拿下来

281
00:12:14,730 --> 00:12:18,690
- It's not just ignorant. It's also sinful, right?
-这不仅仅是无知 这也是有罪的 对吧？

282
00:12:18,690 --> 00:12:20,550
So, because there's not knowing
所以 因为不知道

283
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:23,970
and then there's wanting to know or refusing to know.
然后是想知道或拒绝知道
284
00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:26,670
- Yeah. - And so you might say, "Well,
-是的 -所以你可能会说 “嗯

285
00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:28,650
could you extract God from a description
你能从描述中提取上帝吗

286
00:12:28,650 --> 00:12:30,660
of the objective world, right?
客观世界 对吗？

287
00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:35,660
Is God just the ultimate unity of the natural reality?
上帝只是自然现实的最终统一吗？

288
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,330
And I would say, "Well, in a sense,
我会说 “嗯 在某种意义上

289
00:12:39,330 --> 00:12:40,800
there's some truth in that,
这是有一定道理的

290
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,250
but not exactly because God in the highest sense
但不完全是因为最高意义上的上帝

291
00:12:44,250 --> 00:12:49,050
is the spirit that you must emulate in order to thrive.
是你必须模仿才能茁壮成长的精神

292
00:12:49,050 --> 00:12:51,450
How's that for a biological definition?
生物学上的定义如何？

293
00:12:51,450 --> 00:12:53,460
Spirit is a pattern.
精神是一种模式

294
00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:56,100
The spirit that you must emulate in order to thrive.
你必须模仿的精神才能茁壮成长

295
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,280
- So it's a kind of, in one sense,
-所以从某种意义上说
296
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,640
when we say the human spirit, it's that?
当我们说人类精神时 是这样吗？

297
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,800
- It's an animating principle. Yeah.
-这是一个生动的原则 是的

298
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,900
It's a meta, it's a pattern.
这是一个元 这是一个模式

299
00:13:06,900 --> 00:13:08,670
And you might say, "Well, what's the pattern?
你可能会说 “嗯 模式是什么？

300
00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:11,340
Okay. Well, I can tell you that to some degree.
好吧 好吧 我可以在某种程度上告诉你

301
00:13:11,340 --> 00:13:14,850
Imagine that like your grip by beauty,
想象一下 就像你被美丽所抓住

302
00:13:14,850 --> 00:13:17,490
you're gripped by admiration.
你被钦佩所抓住

303
00:13:17,490 --> 00:13:20,340
And you can just notice this, this isn't proposition.
你可以注意到这一点 这不是命题

304
00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:21,600
You have to notice it.
你必须注意到它

305
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,710
It's like, oh, turns out I admire that person.
就像 哦 原来我钦佩那个人

306
00:13:25,710 --> 00:13:26,940
Hmm.
嗯

307
00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:28,140
So what does that mean?
那是什么意思呢？

308
00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:31,890
Well, it means I would like to be like him or her.
嗯 这意味着我想成为像他或她一样的人

309
00:13:31,890 --> 00:13:32,970
That's what admiration means.
这就是钦佩的意思

310
00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:35,970
It means there's something about the way they are
这意味着他们的方式有某种东西

311
00:13:35,970 --> 00:13:40,110
that compels imitation, another instinct.
这迫使模仿 另一种本能

312
00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:44,610
Or inspires respect or awe even.
或者激发尊重甚至敬畏

313
00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:46,830
Okay. What is that that grips you?
好吧 那是什么吸引了你？

314
00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:49,320
Well, I don't know.
嗯 我不知道

315
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,210
Well, let's say, okay, fine.
好吧 让我们说 好吧 好吧

316
00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:53,400
But it grips you and you wanna be like that.
但它吸引了你 你想成为那样的人

317
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,260
Kids hero worship, for example.
例如 儿童英雄崇拜

318
00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:56,580
So do adults for that matter,
成年人也是如此

319
00:13:56,580 --> 00:13:58,170
unless they become entirely cynical.
除非他们变得完全愤世嫉俗

320
00:13:58,170 --> 00:14:00,240
- I worship quite a few heroes.
-我崇拜相当多的英雄

321
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,170
- Yeah. Well, there you go.
-是的 好吧 给你

322
00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:03,360
- Proudly. - Yes. Well, there you go.
-骄傲 -是的 好吧 给你

323
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,360
And that worship, that celebration
这种崇拜 这种庆祝

324
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,460
and proclivity to imitate is worship.
模仿的倾向就是崇拜

325
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:11,160
That's what worship means most fundamentally.
这就是崇拜最根本的意义

326
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,020
Now imagine you took the set of all admirable people
现在想象一下 你拿了所有令人钦佩的人

327
00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:18,960
and you extracted AI learning,
你提取了人工智能学习

328
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,970
you extracted out the central features
你提取了核心特征

329
00:14:20,970 --> 00:14:23,250
of what constitutes admirable.
什么构成令人钦佩

330
00:14:23,250 --> 00:14:25,950
And then you did that repeatedly until you purified it
然后你反复这样做 直到你净化了它

331
00:14:25,950 --> 00:14:27,693
to what was most admirable.
最令人钦佩的

332
00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:31,590
That's as good as you're gonna get
这是你能得到的最好的了

333
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:36,180
in terms of a representation of God.
就上帝的代表而言

334
00:14:36,180 --> 00:14:37,620
And you might say, "Well, I don't believe in that."
你可能会说 “嗯 我不相信那个 ”

335
00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:40,360
It's like, well, what do you mean?
就像 嗯 你什么意思？

336
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,730
- Yeah. - It's not a set
-是的 -这不是一套

337
00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:43,549
of propositional facts.
命题事实

338
00:14:43,549 --> 00:14:45,600
It's not a scientific theory
这不是科学理论

339
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,490
about the structure of the objective world.
关于客观世界的结构

340
00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:49,140
And then I could say something about that too,
然后我也可以说些什么

341
00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:50,670
'cause I've been thinking about this a lot,
因为我已经想了很多

342
00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:53,340
especially since talking to Richard Dawkins.
尤其是自从和理查德·道金斯交谈之后
343
00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:57,360
It's like, okay, the postmodernist types,
就像 好吧 后现代主义类型

344
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,670
going back way before Derrida and Foucault,
追溯到德里达和福柯之前

345
00:14:59,670 --> 00:15:04,350
maybe back to Nietzsche who I admire greatly by the way,
也许可以追溯到尼采 顺便说一句 我非常钦佩他

346
00:15:04,350 --> 00:15:05,757
He says, "God is dead."
他说 “上帝死了 ”

347
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,890
It's like, okay.
就像 好吧

348
00:15:07,890 --> 00:15:10,170
But Nietzsche said, God is dead and we have killed him
但是尼采说 上帝死了 我们杀了他

349
00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:12,960
and we'll not find enough water to wash away all the blood."
我们找不到足够的水来洗掉所有的血 ”

350
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,090
So that was Nietzsche. He's no fool.
这就是尼采 他不是傻瓜

351
00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:17,610
- He's got away with words. - He certainly does.
-他逃脱了惩罚 -他当然是

352
00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:19,410
And so then you think, okay,
然后你想 好吧

353
00:15:19,410 --> 00:15:21,063
well we killed the transcendent.
嗯 我们杀死了超凡者

354
00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:24,720
Well, what does that mean for science?
那么 这对科学意味着什么？
355
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,600
Well, it frees it up because all that nonsense
嗯 它解放了它 因为所有那些废话

356
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,450
about a deity is just the idiot superstition
关于神只是愚蠢的迷信

357
00:15:30,450 --> 00:15:31,893
that stops the scientific,
这阻止了科学

358
00:15:33,420 --> 00:15:35,490
what process from moving forward.
前进的过程

359
00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:38,313
That's basically the new atheist claim. Something like that.
这基本上是新的无神论者的主张 类似的东西

360
00:15:38,313 --> 00:15:39,993
It's like, wait a second.
就像 等一下

361
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,490
Do you believe in the transcendent if you're a scientist?
如果你是科学家 你相信超凡者吗？

362
00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:46,650
And the answer is, well,
答案是 嗯

363
00:15:46,650 --> 00:15:47,850
not only do you believe in it,
你不仅相信它

364
00:15:47,850 --> 00:15:49,500
you believe in it more than anything else,
你相信它胜过一切

365
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:51,690
because if you're a scientist,
因为如果你是科学家

366
00:15:51,690 --> 00:15:56,190
you believe in what objects to your theory,
你相信你理论的反对对象

367
00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:58,440
more than you believe in your theory.
比你相信你的理论更多

368
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,420
Now we gotta think that through very carefully.
现在我们必须非常仔细地思考一下

369
00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:01,950
So your theory describes the world
所以你的理论描述了世界

370
00:16:01,950 --> 00:16:04,170
and as far as you're concerned,
就你而言

371
00:16:04,170 --> 00:16:06,270
you description of the world is the world.
你对世界的描述就是世界

372
00:16:07,230 --> 00:16:09,660
But because you're a scientist, you think, well,
但是因为你是一个科学家 你认为 嗯

373
00:16:09,660 --> 00:16:11,697
even though that's my description of the world
即使这是我对世界的描述

374
00:16:11,697 --> 00:16:13,800
and that's what I believe,
这就是我所相信的

375
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,113
there's something beyond what I believe,
有一些东西超越了我所相信的

376
00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:18,090
and that's the object.
这就是对象

377
00:16:18,090 --> 00:16:20,370
And so I'm gonna throw my theory against the object
所以我要把我的理论与对象进行对比

378
00:16:20,370 --> 00:16:21,720
and see where it'll break.
看看它会在哪里破裂

379
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,350
And then I'm going to use the evidence of the break
然后我将使用断裂的证据

380
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:28,800
as a source of new information to revitalize my theory.
作为新信息的来源来振兴我的理论

381
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,440
So as a scientist, you have to posit the existence
所以作为一个科学家 你必须假设存在

382
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,900
of the ontological transcendent
本体论超验的

383
00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:36,180
before you can move forward at all.
在你能前进之前

384
00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:37,263
But more,
但是更多

385
00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:40,560
you have to posit that contact
你必须假设这种接触

386
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,080
with the ontological transcendent.
与本体论上的超验者

387
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,410
Annoying though it is because it upsets your apple cart
尽管这很烦人 因为它打乱了你的苹果车

388
00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:49,740
is exactly what will in fact set you free
实际上正是让你自由的东西

389
00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:51,450
so then you accept the proposition
所以你接受了这个提议

390
00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:53,530
that there is a transcendent reality
存在一个超验的现实

391
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,470
and that contact with that transcend reality
与那个超验的现实的接触

392
00:16:58,470 --> 00:17:01,020
is redemptive in the most fundamental sense,
在最基本的意义上是救赎的

393
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:02,970
because if it wasn't, well, why would you bother
因为如果不是 你为什么要费心

394
00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:03,870
making contact with it?
与它接触？

395
00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:06,270
You're gonna make everything worse or better?
你会让一切变得更糟或更好？

396
00:17:06,270 --> 00:17:10,050
- Why does the contact with a transcendent
-为什么与超验者的接触

397
00:17:10,050 --> 00:17:11,790
set you free as a scientist?
让你作为科学家自由？

398
00:17:11,790 --> 00:17:13,860
- Because you assume,
-因为你假设

399
00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:15,930
I mean, freedom in the most fundamental sense,
我是说 最基本意义上的自由

400
00:17:15,930 --> 00:17:19,170
it's like, well, freedom from want, freedom from disease,
就像 嗯 免于匮乏 免于疾病

401
00:17:19,170 --> 00:17:21,060
freedom from ignorance, right?
免于无知 对吗？
402
00:17:21,060 --> 00:17:22,469
That it informs you.
它告诉你的

403
00:17:22,469 --> 00:17:24,507
The logos in it. - So it's the why of science?
里面的标志 -所以这就是科学的原因？

404
00:17:24,507 --> 00:17:26,463
- It is definitely that.
-绝对是这样

405
00:17:27,330 --> 00:17:30,120
Yeah, it's the direction, let's say,
是的 这是方向 比方说

406
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:31,470
the directionality of science.
科学的方向

407
00:17:31,470 --> 00:17:34,047
That's a narrative direction, not a scientific direction.
这是一个叙事方向 而不是科学方向

408
00:17:34,047 --> 00:17:36,480
And then the question is what is the narrative?
然后问题是什么是叙事？

409
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,820
Well, it posits at transcendent reality.
嗯 它假设超验现实

410
00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:41,670
It posits that the transcendent reality is corrective.
它假设超验现实是纠正性的

411
00:17:41,670 --> 00:17:43,530
It posits that our knowledge structure
它假设我们的知识结构

412
00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:46,020
should be regarded with humility.
应该被谦逊地对待

413
00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:48,854
It posits that you should bow down in the face
它假设你应该屈服于
414
00:17:48,854 --> 00:17:51,810
of the transcendent evidence.
超验证据

415
00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:53,310
And you have to take a vow.
你必须发誓

416
00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:54,540
You know this as a scientist,
作为一名科学家 你知道这一点

417
00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:56,520
you have to take a vow to follow that path
你必须发誓要走这条路

418
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:57,810
if you're gonna be a real scientist.
如果你想成为一名真正的科学家

419
00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:01,470
It's like the truth, no matter what.
这就像真相 不管怎样

420
00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:05,220
And that means you posit the truth as a redemptive force.
这意味着你把真相假设为一种救赎的力量

421
00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:06,450
Well, what does redemptive mean?
那么 救赎是什么意思？

422
00:18:06,450 --> 00:18:07,770
Well, why bother with science?
那么 为什么要费心研究科学呢？

423
00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:09,240
Well, so people don't starve,
嗯 这样人们就不会挨饿

424
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,310
so people can move about more effectively,
所以人们可以更有效地四处走动

425
00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:13,110
so life can be more abundant, right?
所以生命可以更丰富 对吗？

426
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:16,770
So it's all ensconced within an underlying ethic.
所以这一切都隐藏在一个潜在的伦理中

427
00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:19,110
So the reason I was saying that
所以我这么说的原因

428
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:20,820
while we were talking about belief in God,
当我们谈论对上帝的信仰时

429
00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:23,250
it's like this is a very complicated topic, right?
好像这是一个非常复杂的话题 对吧？

430
00:18:23,250 --> 00:18:25,080
Do you believe in a transcendent reality?
你相信超然的现实吗？

431
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,590
See, okay, now let's say you buy the argument
看 好吧 现在假设你相信这个论点

432
00:18:28,590 --> 00:18:30,060
I just made on the natural front,
我只是在自然方面做的

433
00:18:30,060 --> 00:18:33,390
and you say, "Yeah, yeah, that's just nature.
你说 “是的 是的 那只是自然

434
00:18:33,390 --> 00:18:35,535
That's not God."
那不是上帝 ”

435
00:18:35,535 --> 00:18:37,440
And then I'd say, "Well, what makes you think
然后我会说 “嗯 是什么让你思考

436
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,697
you know what nature is?"
你知道自然是什么吗？”

437
00:18:39,870 --> 00:18:42,600
Like, see, the problem with that argument is that
就像 看 这个论点的问题是

438
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,320
it already presumes a materialist, a reductionist,
它已经假设了一个唯物主义者 一个简化论者

439
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,250
materialist objective view of what constitutes nature.
唯物主义者对什么构成自然的客观看法

440
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:52,650
But if you're a scientist, you're gonna think,
但是如果你是一个科学家 你会想

441
00:18:52,650 --> 00:18:55,260
well, in the final analysis, I don't know what nature is.
嗯 归根结底 我不知道自然是什么

442
00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:58,410
I certainly don't know its origin or destination point.
我当然不知道它的起源或终点

443
00:18:58,410 --> 00:19:00,390
I don't know its teleology.
我不知道它的目的论

444
00:19:00,390 --> 00:19:02,850
I'm really ignorant about nature.
我真的对自然一无所知

445
00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:05,730
And so when I say it's nothing but nature,
所以当我说它除了自然什么都不是的时候

446
00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:07,440
I shouldn't mean it's nothing
我不应该说它什么都不是

447
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,740
but what I understand nature to be.
而是我所理解的自然

448
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:13,590
So I could say, will we have a fully reductionist account
所以我可以说 我们会有一个完全简化论者的账户吗？

449
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:16,320
of cognitive processes?
认知过程？

450
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,410
And the answer to that is yes but by the time we do that,
答案是肯定的 但是当我们这样做的时候

451
00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:22,560
our understanding of matter will have transformed so much
我们对物质的理解会发生很大的变化

452
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,570
that what we think of as reduction now
我们现在认为的还原

453
00:19:24,570 --> 00:19:28,230
won't look anything like what we think of reductionism now.
看起来一点也不像我们现在认为的还原论

454
00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:31,050
Matter isn't dead dust.
物质不是死灰尘

455
00:19:31,050 --> 00:19:32,760
I don't know what it is.
我不知道它是什么

456
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,120
I have no idea what it is. Matter is what matters.
我不知道它是什么 物质才是重要的

457
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:37,440
There's a definition.
有一个定义

458
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,570
That's a very weird definition,
这是一个非常奇怪的定义

459
00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:42,810
but the notion that we have
但是我们的概念

460
00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:44,100
that if you're a reductionist,
如果你是一个还原论者
461
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:45,270
a materialist reductionist,
一个唯物主义的还原论者

462
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:48,531
that you can reduce the complexity of what is
你可以减少事物的复杂性

463
00:19:48,531 --> 00:19:52,050
to your assumptions about the nature of matter,
你对物质本质的假设

464
00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:53,370
that's not a scientific proposition.
这不是一个科学命题

465
00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:55,440
- Your specific limited human assumptions
-你特定的有限的人类假设

466
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,990
of this century of this week.
这个星期的这个世纪

467
00:19:57,990 --> 00:20:01,800
- You bet. - So in some sense,
-当然 -所以在某种意义上

468
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,310
without God in this complicated,
没有上帝在这个复杂的

469
00:20:05,310 --> 00:20:07,383
big definition we're talking about,
我们正在谈论的大定义

470
00:20:08,344 --> 00:20:10,560
there's no humility.
没有谦逊

471
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,750
Or- - There's not enough.
或者--没有足够的

472
00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:15,300
- There's less likely to be,
-不太可能
473
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:19,440
or rather science can err in taking a trajectory
或者更确切地说 科学在沿着一条轨道前进时可能会出错

474
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,190
away from humility. - Well-
远离谦逊 -嗯-

475
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:24,060
- Without something much more powerful
-没有更强大的东西

476
00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:26,250
than individual human.
比个人更强大

477
00:20:26,250 --> 00:20:28,950
- Yeah, well then, and we know the Frankenstein story
-是的 那么 我们知道弗兰肯斯坦的故事

478
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:30,570
comes out of that instantly.
马上就出来了

479
00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:33,780
And that's a good story for the current times.
这对当前时代来说是个好故事

480
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:37,923
It's like you're playing around with making new life.
就像你在玩创造新生命的游戏

481
00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:40,800
You bloody well better make sure
你最好确保

482
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,440
you have your arrows pointed up.
你的箭头指向了

483
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,120
- And it's interesting because you said science has
-这很有趣 因为你说科学有

484
00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:51,360
an ethic to it I think. - It's embedded in an ethic.
我认为这是一种伦理 -它嵌入了伦理

485
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:55,470
- Well, there's a, you know, science is a big word.
-嗯 你知道 科学是一个很大的词

486
00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:56,580
- Yeah. - And it includes a lot
-是的 -它包括很多

487
00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:58,560
of disciplines that have different traditions.
有不同传统的学科

488
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,020
So biology, chemistry,
所以生物学 化学

489
00:21:01,020 --> 00:21:02,673
genetics, physics,
遗传学 物理学

490
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,720
those are very different communities.
这些是非常不同的社区

491
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,550
And I think biology,
我认为生物学

492
00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:10,590
especially when you get closer and closer to medicine
尤其是当你越来越接近医学的时候

493
00:21:10,590 --> 00:21:12,210
and to the human body,
和人体

494
00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:14,460
does have a very serious, first of all,
确实有一个非常严重的 首先

495
00:21:14,460 --> 00:21:16,770
it has a history with Nazi Germany of being abused
它和纳粹德国有被虐待的历史

496
00:21:16,770 --> 00:21:18,330
and all those kinds of things.
以及所有这些事情

497
00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:21,120
But it has a history of taking this stuff seriously.
但它有认真对待这些事情的历史

498
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:23,610
What doesn't have a history of taking this stuff seriously
历史上没有认真对待这些东西的

499
00:21:23,610 --> 00:21:25,710
is robotics and artificial intelligence,
是机器人和人工智能

500
00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:29,790
which is really interesting because you don't, you know,
这真的很有趣 因为你不知道

501
00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:31,443
you called me a scientist,
你叫我科学家

502
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:34,920
and I would like to wear that label proudly,
我想自豪地戴上这个标签

503
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,670
but often people don't think of computer science
但是人们通常不认为计算机科学

504
00:21:37,670 --> 00:21:40,980
as a science, but nevertheless it will be
作为一门科学 但无论如何它会是

505
00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:44,850
I think one of the major scientific fields
我认为主要的科学领域之一

506
00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:46,290
of the 21st century
21 世纪

507
00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:48,660
and you should take that very seriously.
你应该非常认真地对待这一点

508
00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:52,590
Oftentimes when people build robots or AI systems,
通常当人们建造机器人或人工智能系统时

509
00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:55,830
they think of them as
他们认为它们是

510
00:21:55,830 --> 00:21:57,210
toys to tinker with.
修补的玩具

511
00:21:57,210 --> 00:21:59,067
Oh, isn't this cool? - Mm-hmm. Well that-
哦 这不是很酷吗？-嗯-嗯 嗯-

512
00:21:59,067 --> 00:22:00,480
- And I feel this too.
-我也感觉到了

513
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,460
Isn't this cool? - It is cool.
这不是很酷吗？-很酷

514
00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:05,850
- But at a certain moment you might,
-但在某个时刻你可能会

515
00:22:05,850 --> 00:22:09,420
isn't this nuclear explosion cool?
核爆炸是不是很酷？

516
00:22:09,420 --> 00:22:10,440
- Yeah. - Because it is.
-是的 -因为它是

517
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,180
- Or birth control pill cool.
-或者避孕药很酷

518
00:22:12,180 --> 00:22:15,660
It's like, or transistor cool. Yeah.
就像 或者晶体管很酷 是的

519
00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:16,770
Well, the other thing too,
嗯 另一件事也是
520
00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:20,460
and this is a weird problem in some sense,
从某种意义上说 这是一个奇怪的问题

521
00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:24,030
robotics engineer types, they're thing people, right?
机器人工程师类型 他们是东西人 对吗？

522
00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:26,010
I mean, the big classes of interest
我是说 兴趣的大类

523
00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:28,740
are interest in things versus interest in people.
是对事物的兴趣与对人的兴趣

524
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:30,720
- [Lex] Some of my best friends are thing people.
-[莱克斯]我最好的一些朋友是东西人

525
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:31,553
- Yeah. Right.
-是的 没错

526
00:22:31,553 --> 00:22:36,553
And thing, people are very, very clear logical thinkers
事情 人们是非常非常清晰的逻辑思考者

527
00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:40,503
and they're very outcome oriented and practical.
他们非常注重结果和实际

528
00:22:41,550 --> 00:22:43,260
And that's all good.
这一切都很好

529
00:22:43,260 --> 00:22:46,080
That makes the machinery and keeps it functioning,
这使得机器并保持其运转

530
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,410
but there's a human side of the equation.
但是这个等式也有人性的一面

531
00:22:49,410 --> 00:22:53,040
And you get the extreme thing people and you think,
你会得到极端的东西 人们会想

532
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,320
yeah, well, what about the human here?
是的 好吧 这里的人类呢？

533
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,080
And when we're talking about,
当我们谈论的时候

534
00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,640
we've been talking about the necessity
我们一直在谈论有必要

535
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,450
of having a technological enterprise embedded in an ethic,
让一个技术企业嵌入伦理

536
00:23:03,450 --> 00:23:06,330
and you can ignore that like most of the time, right?
你可以像大多数时候一样忽略它 对吗？

537
00:23:06,330 --> 00:23:09,480
You can ignore the overall ethic in some sense
从某种意义上说 你可以忽略整体伦理

538
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,910
when you're toying around with your toys.
当你玩弄你的玩具时

539
00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:14,070
But when you're building an artificial intelligence,
但是当你构建人工智能时

540
00:23:14,070 --> 00:23:15,093
it's like, well,
就像 嗯

541
00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:18,183
that's not a toy.
那不是玩具

542
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:20,460
That might be-
那可能是——

543
00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:22,215
- [Lex] A toy becomes the monster very quickly.
-[莱克斯]玩具很快就会变成怪物

544
00:23:22,215 --> 00:23:23,880
- Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.
-是的 是的 是的 是的

545
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,940
And this is a whole new kind of monster.
这是一种全新的怪物

546
00:23:26,940 --> 00:23:28,563
And maybe it's already here.
也许它已经在这里了

547
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:35,070
Yes and you notice how many of those things
是的 你注意到有多少这样的东西

548
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:36,663
you can no longer turn off.
你不能再关闭了

549
00:23:39,090 --> 00:23:41,190
And what is it with you engineers and your inability
你们这些工程师是怎么回事 你们没有能力

550
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:43,473
to put off switches on things now?
现在关掉东西的开关？

551
00:23:44,670 --> 00:23:46,890
It's like I have to hold this for five seconds
就像我必须拿着这个五秒钟

552
00:23:46,890 --> 00:23:48,960
for it to shut off, or I can't figure,
让它关闭 或者我不知道

553
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,730
I just want to shut it off.
我只想关掉它

554
00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:51,810
Click off.
点击关闭

555
00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:53,730
- Well, what is it with you humans
-好吧 你们人类是怎么回事

556
00:23:53,730 --> 00:23:57,030
that don't put off switches in other humans,
不会关掉其他人的开关

557
00:23:57,030 --> 00:23:59,580
because there's a magic to the thing that you notice
因为你注意到的事情有一种魔力

558
00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:03,390
and it hurts for both you and perhaps one day
这对你俩都很痛 也许有一天

559
00:24:03,390 --> 00:24:04,980
the thing itself to turn it off.
关掉它本身

560
00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:06,660
- Mm-hmm. - And so you have to be
-嗯-嗯 -所以你必须

561
00:24:06,660 --> 00:24:09,993
very careful as an engineer adding off switches to things.
作为一个工程师 在东西上添加开关非常小心

562
00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:14,400
I think it's a feature, not a bug, the off switch.
我认为这是一个功能 而不是 bug 关闭开关

563
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,010
The off switch gives a deadline to us humans,
关闭开关给我们人类一个最后期限

564
00:24:17,010 --> 00:24:19,650
to systems of existence.
对存在的系统

565
00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:23,250
It makes you, it's, you know, death is the thing
它让你 你知道 死亡是最重要的

566
00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:25,800
that really brings clarity to life.
这真的给生活带来了清晰
567
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,060
And I do think- - Yes,
我确实认为——是的

568
00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:28,770
hence the flaming swords.
因此是燃烧的剑

569
00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:29,610
- The flaming sword.
-燃烧的剑

570
00:24:29,610 --> 00:24:33,150
I do like your view of the flame with the bush
我确实喜欢你对灌木丛中火焰的看法

571
00:24:33,150 --> 00:24:36,690
and perhaps the sword as a thing of transformation.
也许剑是一种转变

572
00:24:36,690 --> 00:24:40,320
It's also a transformation that kind of consumes
这也是一种消耗的转变

573
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,430
the thing in the process.
过程中的事情

574
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:44,550
- Well, it depends on how much of the thing is chaff.
-嗯 这取决于事情有多少是谷壳

575
00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:47,820
This is why you can't touch the arc of the covenant,
这就是为什么你不能触摸盟约的弧线

576
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:48,660
for example.
例如

577
00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:52,080
And this is why people can have very bad psychedelic trips.
这就是为什么人们会有非常糟糕的迷幻之旅

578
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,990
It's like if you're 95% dead wood
就像如果你是 95%的枯木
579
00:24:54,990 --> 00:24:57,000
and you get too close to the flame.
你离火焰太近了

580
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,710
- Yeah. - The 5% that's left
-是的 -剩下的 5%

581
00:24:58,710 --> 00:25:00,663
might not be able to make it.
可能做不到

582
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:04,740
- So you think it's all chaff,
-所以你认为这都是谷壳

583
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:07,020
but I think there is some aspect of destruction
但我认为有一些破坏的方面

584
00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:07,930
that is
那就是

585
00:25:09,933 --> 00:25:11,797
the Bukowski line of,
布考斯基的台词

586
00:25:11,797 --> 00:25:13,500
"Do what you love and let it kill you."
“做你喜欢的 让它杀了你 ”

587
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:14,940
- Right. - Don't you think
-对 -你不觉得吗

588
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:18,210
that destruction is part of- - That's humility.
这种破坏是——那是谦逊的一部分

589
00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:20,190
- That's humility. That's- - You bet. You bet.
-那是谦逊 那是——你打赌 你打赌

590
00:25:20,190 --> 00:25:21,023
You bet.
你打赌

591
00:25:21,023 --> 00:25:23,130
It's like invite in the judgment.
这就像邀请审判

592
00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:24,090
Invite in the judgment,
邀请审判

593
00:25:24,090 --> 00:25:25,620
because maybe you can die a little bit
因为也许你可以死一点

594
00:25:25,620 --> 00:25:27,360
instead of dying completely. - Yeah.
而不是完全死 -是的

595
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,157
- And I think it's Alfred North Whitehead.
-我认为是阿尔弗雷德·诺斯·怀特黑德

596
00:25:30,157 --> 00:25:33,150
"We can let our ideas die instead of us."
“我们可以让我们的想法代替我们死去 ”

597
00:25:33,150 --> 00:25:33,983
Right?
对吗？

598
00:25:33,983 --> 00:25:37,410
We can have these partial personalities that we can burn off
我们可以拥有这些我们可以燃烧掉的部分人格

599
00:25:37,410 --> 00:25:39,840
and we can let them go before they become
我们可以在他们成为暴虐的法老之前让他们离开

600
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,230
tyrannical pharaohs and we lose everything.
我们失去了一切

601
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:46,380
And so, yeah, there's this optimal bite of death.
所以 是的 有一个最佳的死亡咬

602
00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:49,650
And who knows what it would mean to optimize that?
谁知道优化它意味着什么？

603
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:52,500
Like what if it was possible that if you died enough
比如 如果有可能 如果你死得足够多

604
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,190
all the time that you could continue to live?
你可以继续活下去？

605
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:58,290
And the thing is, we already know that biologically,
问题是 我们在生物学上已经知道了

606
00:25:58,290 --> 00:26:02,490
because if you don't die properly all the time,
因为如果你不能一直正常地死去

607
00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:04,233
well, it's cancerous outgrowths.
嗯 这是癌变的结果

608
00:26:05,310 --> 00:26:09,660
Like it's a very fine balance between productivity
好像这是生产力之间的一个非常好的平衡

609
00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:14,040
on the biological front and the culling of that, right?
在生物学的前沿和对它的剔除 对吗？

610
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,640
Life is a real balance between growth and death.
生命是生长和死亡之间的真正平衡

611
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,020
And so what would happen if you got that balance right?
所以如果你得到了这个平衡会发生什么？

612
00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:21,570
Well, we kind of know, right?
嗯 我们有点知道 对吧？

613
00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:26,070
Because if you live your life properly, so to speak,
因为如果你正确地生活 可以说

614
00:26:26,070 --> 00:26:28,770
and you're humble enough to let your stupidity die
你足够谦虚 让你的愚蠢死去

615
00:26:28,770 --> 00:26:32,040
before it takes you out, you will live longer.
在它把你带走之前 你会活得更久

616
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,140
That's just a fact.
这只是一个事实

617
00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:37,080
Well, but then what's the ultimate extension of that?
好吧 但是它的最终延伸是什么？

618
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,140
And the answer is we don't know. We have no idea.
答案是我们不知道 我们不知道

619
00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:42,960
- Well, let me ask you a difficult question, because-
-好吧 让我问你一个困难的问题 因为——

620
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,160
- As opposed to the easy ones
-而不是简单的问题

621
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,630
that you've been asking so far.
到目前为止你一直在问

622
00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:48,903
- Well, Dostoevsky's always just a warm up.
-嗯 陀思妥耶夫斯基总是热身

623
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:54,630
So if death every single day is the way
所以如果每天都有死亡

624
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:58,390
to progress through life, you have become quite famous.
在生活中进步 你已经变得相当出名了

625
00:26:58,390 --> 00:27:00,120
- Death and hell.
-死亡和地狱
626
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:01,007
- Death and hell. - Yeah. Yeah.
-死亡和地狱 -是的 是的

627
00:27:01,007 --> 00:27:03,936
'Cause you don't wanna forget the hell part.
因为你不想忘记地狱的部分

628
00:27:03,936 --> 00:27:07,320
- Do you worry that your fame
-你担心你的名声

629
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,270
traps you into the person that you were before?
让你陷入以前的你吗？

630
00:27:12,270 --> 00:27:15,270
- Yeah, well, even Elvis became an Elvis impersonator
-是的 甚至埃尔维斯也成了埃尔维斯的模仿者

631
00:27:15,270 --> 00:27:16,770
by the time he died. - Yeah.
当他死的时候 -是的

632
00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:18,240
Do you fear that you have become
你害怕你已经成为

633
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,245
a Jordan Peterson impersonator?
乔丹·彼得森的模仿者吗？

634
00:27:20,245 --> 00:27:25,245
Do you fear of, in some part becoming the famous
你害怕 在某种程度上成为名人吗

635
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:28,819
suit wearing brilliant Jordan Peter,
穿着辉煌的乔丹·彼得的西装

636
00:27:28,819 --> 00:27:33,819
the certainty in the pursuit of truth, always right.
追求真理的确定性 永远是对的

637
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:36,960
- I think I worry about it more than anything else.
-我想我最担心的是它

638
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,960
I hope. I hope I do. I better.
我希望 我希望我知道 我最好

639
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,970
- Has fame to some degree,
-在某种程度上有名气

640
00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:44,430
when you look at yourself in the mirror,
当你看着镜子里的自己

641
00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:47,700
in the quiet of your mind, has it corrupted you?
在你安静的头脑中 它腐蚀了你吗？

642
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:50,190
- No doubt. In some regard.
-毫无疑问 在某些方面

643
00:27:50,190 --> 00:27:53,310
I mean, it's a very difficult thing to avoid, you know,
我是说 这是一件很难避免的事情 你知道

644
00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:57,150
because things change around you.
因为你周围的事情会改变

645
00:27:57,150 --> 00:28:01,170
People are much more likely to do what you ask for example.
例如 人们更有可能按照你的要求去做

646
00:28:01,170 --> 00:28:02,003
Right?
对吧？

647
00:28:02,003 --> 00:28:04,410
And so that's a danger because one of the things
所以这是一个危险 因为有一件事

648
00:28:04,410 --> 00:28:06,390
that keeps you dying properly is that
让你正常死亡的是

649
00:28:06,390 --> 00:28:08,880
people push back against you optimally.
人们以最佳方式反击你

650
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,490
This is why so many celebrities spiral out of control,
这就是为什么这么多名人失控

651
00:28:11,490 --> 00:28:15,210
especially the tyrannical types that say, run countries.
尤其是那些专制的人 比如管理国家

652
00:28:15,210 --> 00:28:18,330
Everyone around them stops saying, "Yeah,
他们周围的每个人都不再说 “是的

653
00:28:18,330 --> 00:28:20,190
you're deviating a little bit there."
你有点偏离了 "

654
00:28:20,190 --> 00:28:22,830
They laugh at all their jokes. They open all their doors.
他们笑他们所有的笑话 他们打开所有的门

655
00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:25,350
They always want something from them.
他们总是想从他们那里得到一些东西

656
00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:27,390
The red carpet's always rolled out.
红地毯总是铺开

657
00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:30,090
It's like, well, you think wouldn't that be lovely?
就像 嗯 你不觉得那很可爱吗？

658
00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:34,080
Well, not if the red carpet is rolled out to you
如果红地毯向你铺开就不会了

659
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,330
while you're on your way to perdition.
当你走向灭亡的时候

660
00:28:36,330 --> 00:28:37,890
That's not a good deal.
那可不是一笔划算的交易

661
00:28:37,890 --> 00:28:40,050
You just get there more efficiently.
你只是更有效地到达那里

662
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:43,260
And so one of the things that I've tried to learn to manage
所以我试图学会管理的一件事是

663
00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:46,230
is to have people around me all the time
就是一直有人在我身边

664
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:49,267
who are critics, who are saying,
谁是批评家 谁在说

665
00:28:49,267 --> 00:28:50,700
"Yeah, you could have done that better
"是啊 你本可以做得更好的

666
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:52,890
and you're a little too harsh there
你有点太苛刻了

667
00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:55,680
and you're alienating people unnecessarily there
你在不必要地疏远那里的人

668
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,990
and you should have done some more background work there."
你应该在那里做更多的背景工作 "

669
00:28:57,990 --> 00:29:02,190
And I think the responsibility attendant upon that
我认为随之而来的责任

670
00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:04,800
increases as your influence increases.
随着您的影响力增加而增加

671
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,520
And as you're influence increases,
随着你影响力的增加

672
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,983
then that becomes a lot of responsibility.
那就成了很大的责任
673
00:29:12,390 --> 00:29:14,850
So, you know, and then maybe have an off day
所以 你知道 然后也许有一个休息日

674
00:29:14,850 --> 00:29:17,280
and well, here's an example.
这里有一个例子

675
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,350
I've been writing some columns lately
我最近一直在写一些专栏

676
00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:21,190
about things that perturbed me
关于困扰我的事情

677
00:29:22,110 --> 00:29:25,590
like the forthcoming famine, for example.
比如即将到来的饥荒

678
00:29:25,590 --> 00:29:30,590
And it's hard to take those problems on.
很难解决这些问题

679
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,360
It's difficult to take those problems on
很难解决这些问题

680
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,580
in a serious manner and it's frightening.
以严肃的方式 这很可怕

681
00:29:35,580 --> 00:29:37,560
And it would be easier just to go up to the cottage
去小屋会更容易

682
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,830
with my wife and go out on the lake and watch the sunset.
和我妻子一起去湖边看日落

683
00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:44,140
And so I'm tempted to draw on
所以我很想利用

684
00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:49,200
anger as a motivating energy to help me overcome
愤怒作为一种激励能量来帮助我克服
685
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,110
the resistance to doing this.
对这样做的阻力

686
00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:53,700
But then that makes me more harsh
但这让我变得更加苛刻

687
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,010
and judgemental in my tone
和我的语气中的评判

688
00:29:56,010 --> 00:29:59,100
when I'm reading such things for example on YouTube
当我读到这样的东西时 例如在 YouTube

689
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:00,330
then might be optimal.
然后可能是最佳的

690
00:30:00,330 --> 00:30:02,957
Now, I've had debates with people about that.
现在 我和人们就此进行了辩论

691
00:30:02,957 --> 00:30:05,610
'cause I have friends who say, "No,
因为我有朋友说 “不

692
00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:10,530
if you're calling out the environmentalist globalists
如果你在呼吁环保主义全球主义者

693
00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:12,840
who are harassing the Dutch farmers,
他们正在骚扰荷兰农民

694
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,900
then a little anger is just the ticket."
那么一点点愤怒就是门票 ”

695
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:17,700
But then others say, "Well, you know,
但也有人说 “嗯 你知道

696
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,220
you don't want to be too harsh because you alienate people
你不想太苛刻 因为你疏远了人们

697
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:22,080
who would otherwise listen to you."
否则他们会听你的 ”

698
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,960
It's like that's a hard balance to get right.
好像这是一个很难保持正确的平衡

699
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,440
- But also maybe anger hardens your mind
-但也许愤怒会让你的思想变得坚强

700
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,570
to where you don't notice the subtle,
在你没有注意到微妙的地方

701
00:30:30,570 --> 00:30:32,610
quiet beauty of the world.
世界的宁静之美

702
00:30:32,610 --> 00:30:34,590
The quiet love that's always there
一直存在的安静的爱

703
00:30:34,590 --> 00:30:36,180
that permeates everything.
渗透一切

704
00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:38,793
Sometimes you can become deeply cynical about the world,
有时候你会对这个世界变得非常愤世嫉俗

705
00:30:38,793 --> 00:30:41,797
it's the Nietzsche thing. - Yeah.
这是尼采的东西 -是的

706
00:30:41,797 --> 00:30:45,220
- "Battle not with monsters, les you become a monster."
-“不要和怪物战斗 否则你会变成一个怪物 ”

707
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:46,590
- Yeah. - And if you gaze
-是的 -如果你凝视

708
00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:50,070
into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
深渊 深渊也凝视着你 ”

709
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:50,903
- Right.
-对

710
00:30:50,903 --> 00:30:53,968
But I would say bring it on.
但我会说来吧

711
00:30:53,968 --> 00:30:56,280
(lex laughing)
（莱克斯笑了）

712
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,113
Right?
对吗？

713
00:30:57,113 --> 00:31:00,030
'Cause also knowing that he's absolutely right,
因为我也知道他是绝对正确的

714
00:31:00,030 --> 00:31:03,450
but if you gaze into the abyss long enough,
但是如果你凝视深渊足够长的时间

715
00:31:03,450 --> 00:31:05,343
you see the light, not the darkness.
你看到的是光明 而不是黑暗

716
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,370
- Are you sure about that?
-你确定吗？

717
00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:10,622
- I'm betting my life on it.
-我把我的生命押在上面

718
00:31:10,622 --> 00:31:12,254
- Yeah, that's a heck of a bet,
-是的 这是一个了不起的赌注

719
00:31:12,254 --> 00:31:14,795
because it might distort your mind
因为它可能会扭曲你的思想

720
00:31:14,795 --> 00:31:18,360
to where all you see- - Is abyss.
你所看到的——是深渊

721
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,910
- Is abyss. - Yeah.
-是深渊 -是的

722
00:31:19,910 --> 00:31:21,180
- Is the evil in this world-
-是这个世界上的邪恶——

723
00:31:21,180 --> 00:31:24,150
- Well then I would say you haven't looked long enough.
-那我会说你看的时间还不够长

724
00:31:24,150 --> 00:31:26,360
You know, that's back to the- - You're just the-
你知道 这又回到了--你只是-

725
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,410
- The swords, the flaming swords.
-剑 燃烧的剑

726
00:31:28,410 --> 00:31:30,000
It's like, so I said,
就像 所以我说

727
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,973
the whole story of Christ was prefigured in that image.
基督的整个故事都是在那个形象中预示的

728
00:31:32,973 --> 00:31:36,870
It's like the story of Christ psychologically
这就像基督心理上的故事

729
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:40,890
is radical acceptance of the worst possible tragedy.
是对最糟糕的悲剧的彻底接受

730
00:31:40,890 --> 00:31:42,990
That's what it means. That's what the crucifix means.
这就是它的意思 这就是十字架的意思

731
00:31:42,990 --> 00:31:45,120
Psychologically, it's like gaze upon that
心理上 这就像凝视它
732
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,710
which you are most afraid of.
你最害怕的

733
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:48,150
But that story doesn't end there
但这个故事并没有就此结束

734
00:31:48,150 --> 00:31:53,150
'cause in the story, Christ goes through death into hell.
因为在故事中 基督经历了死亡 进入了地狱

735
00:31:53,460 --> 00:31:55,290
So death isn't enough.
所以死亡是不够的

736
00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:58,920
The of innocent death is not sufficient
无辜的死亡是不够的

737
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,690
to produce redemption.
产生救赎

738
00:32:00,690 --> 00:32:03,150
It has to be a voluntary journey to hell.
这必须是一次自愿的地狱之旅

739
00:32:03,150 --> 00:32:04,900
And maybe that's true for everyone.
也许对每个人来说都是如此

740
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,790
And that's like, there is no more terrifying idea
这就像 没有比这更可怕的想法了

741
00:32:08,790 --> 00:32:10,320
than that by definition.
根据定义

742
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,753
And so then, well, do you gaze upon that?
那么 嗯 你会凝视它吗？

743
00:32:14,010 --> 00:32:14,843
Well.
嗯
744
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,390
Who knows? Who knows?
谁知道呢？谁知道呢？

745
00:32:18,390 --> 00:32:22,530
- How often do you gaze upon death, your own?
-你多久凝视一次死亡 你自己的？

746
00:32:22,530 --> 00:32:26,100
How often do you remember, remind yourself
你多久记得一次 提醒自己

747
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:28,395
that this ride ends? - Personally?
这段旅程结束了？-个人？

748
00:32:28,395 --> 00:32:30,810
- Personally. - All the time.
-个人 -所有的时间

749
00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:33,750
- 'Cause you as a deep thinker and philosopher,
-因为你作为一个深刻的思想家和哲学家

750
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:36,330
it's easy to start philosophizing
很容易开始哲学思考

751
00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:40,140
and forgetting that you might die today.
忘记你今天可能会死

752
00:32:40,140 --> 00:32:42,243
- The angel of death sits on every word.
-死亡天使坐在每一个词上

753
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,337
How's that?
怎么样？

754
00:32:45,337 --> 00:32:48,150
- [Lex] How often do you actually consciously-
-[·莱克斯]你多久意识到——

755
00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:49,620
- All the time.
-所有的时间

756
00:32:49,620 --> 00:32:51,573
- Notice the angel. - All the time.
-注意天使 -一直都是

757
00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:57,720
I think it's one of the things that made me peculiar.
我想这是让我与众不同的事情之一

758
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,220
When I was in graduate school,
当我在研究生院的时候

759
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,220
I had the thought of death in my mind all the time.
我一直在想死亡

760
00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:07,410
And I noticed that many of the people that I was with,
我注意到和我在一起的许多人

761
00:33:07,410 --> 00:33:09,600
these were people I admired fine.
这些是我非常钦佩的人

762
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,120
That wasn't part of their character,
那不是他们性格的一部分

763
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:13,860
but it was definitely part of mine.
但这绝对是我的一部分

764
00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:15,243
I'd wake up every morning.
我每天早上醒来

765
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,030
This happened for years I think.
我想这已经发生了很多年了

766
00:33:18,030 --> 00:33:21,600
Time short, get at it. Time short, get at it.
时间紧迫 开始吧 时间紧迫 开始吧

767
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,650
There's things to do.
有事情要做

768
00:33:23,610 --> 00:33:25,620
And so that was always, it's still there,
所以那一直是 它仍然存在

769
00:33:25,620 --> 00:33:27,900
and it's still there I would say,
我想说 它仍然在那里

770
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:30,060
and it's unbearable in some sense.
从某种意义上说 这是无法忍受的

771
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:31,290
- Are you afraid of it?
-你害怕吗？

772
00:33:31,290 --> 00:33:33,000
Like what's your relationship- - Afraid of death?
比如你们是什么关系——害怕死亡？

773
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,833
- Yeah.
-是的

774
00:33:33,833 --> 00:33:37,143
- You know, I was ready to die a year ago.
-你知道 一年前我就准备好死了

775
00:33:39,030 --> 00:33:40,440
And not casually.
不是随便的

776
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,303
I had people I loved, you know?
我有我爱的人 你知道吗？

777
00:33:47,130 --> 00:33:49,500
So no, I'm not very worried about me,
所以不 我不是很担心我自己

778
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:52,140
but I am very worried about making a mistake.
但我很担心犯错误
779
00:33:52,140 --> 00:33:53,372
- Yeah.
-是的

780
00:33:53,372 --> 00:33:55,560
- I heard Elon Musk talk about that a couple of months ago,
-几个月前我听埃隆·马斯克谈过这个

781
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,900
it was really a striking moment.
那真是一个引人注目的时刻

782
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,570
Someone asked him about death and he said just offhand
有人问他关于死亡的问题 他说只是一时冲动

783
00:34:00,570 --> 00:34:02,100
and then went on with the conversation.
然后继续谈话

784
00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:03,420
He said, "That'd be a relief."
他说 “那将是一种解脱 ”

785
00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:05,520
And then he went on with the conversation.
然后他继续谈话

786
00:34:06,810 --> 00:34:09,450
And I thought, well, you know,
我想 嗯 你知道

787
00:34:09,450 --> 00:34:11,790
he's got a lot of weight on his shoulders.
他肩上的担子很重

788
00:34:11,790 --> 00:34:13,390
I'm sure that part of him thinks
我相信他的一部分在想

789
00:34:14,340 --> 00:34:18,150
it'd be easier if this wasn't here at all.
如果这一切都不在这里 会更容易

790
00:34:18,150 --> 00:34:19,530
Now he said it offhand,
现在他随口说了出来
791
00:34:19,530 --> 00:34:21,900
but it was a telling moment in my estimation.
但在我看来 这是一个说明问题的时刻

792
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:25,653
- So for him, that's a why live question?
-所以对他来说 这是一个为什么活着的问题？

793
00:34:25,653 --> 00:34:27,780
- Hmm. - The exhaustion of life.
-嗯 -生命的疲惫

794
00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:29,130
- Yeah. - If you call it,
-是的 -如果你称之为

795
00:34:29,130 --> 00:34:32,280
life is suffering, but the hardship.
生活是痛苦 但艰难

796
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,130
- I'm more afraid of hell than death.
-比起死亡 我更害怕地狱

797
00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:38,913
- [Lex] You're afraid of the thing that follows?
-[莱克斯]你害怕接下来的事情？

798
00:34:40,170 --> 00:34:42,770
- I don't know if it follows or if it's always here.
-我不知道它是跟着还是一直在这里

799
00:34:44,489 --> 00:34:46,139
And I think we're gonna find out.
我想我们会找到答案的

800
00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:50,220
- [Lex] What's the connection between death and hell?
-[莱克斯]死亡和地狱之间有什么联系？

801
00:34:50,220 --> 00:34:51,093
- I don't know.
-我不知道

802
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:54,570
I don't know.
我不知道

803
00:34:54,570 --> 00:34:55,403
I don't know.
我不知道

804
00:34:55,403 --> 00:34:57,180
- [Lex] Is there something that needs to be done
-[·莱克斯]有什么需要做的吗

805
00:34:57,180 --> 00:34:58,530
before you arrive?
在你到达之前？

806
00:34:58,530 --> 00:35:00,330
- You're more likely to die terribly
-你更有可能死得很惨

807
00:35:00,330 --> 00:35:03,810
if you live in a manner that brings you to hell,
如果你以一种让你下地狱的方式生活

808
00:35:03,810 --> 00:35:04,920
that's one connection.
这是一个联系

809
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,670
- [Lex] And terribly is a very deep kind of concept?
-[·莱克斯]可怕是一个非常深刻的概念？

810
00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:10,263
Okay. - Yeah. Yeah.
好吧 -是的 是的

811
00:35:11,621 --> 00:35:12,780
(Lex sighing)
（莱克斯叹气）

812
00:35:12,780 --> 00:35:14,793
And that's a definition by the way.
顺便说一句 这是一个定义

813
00:35:16,290 --> 00:35:17,880
- What do you make of Elon Musk?
-你对埃隆·马斯克有什么看法？

814
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,540
You've spoken about him a bit. You met him.
你谈过他一点 你见过他

815
00:35:19,540 --> 00:35:21,453
- I was struck with admiration.
-我被钦佩打动了

816
00:35:22,830 --> 00:35:23,683
That's what I make of it and I always think-
这就是我对它的看法 我一直在想——

817
00:35:23,683 --> 00:35:24,628
- [Lex] Now we'll go back to this idea of admiration.
-[·莱克斯]现在我们回到钦佩的概念

818
00:35:24,628 --> 00:35:26,880
- I was think of that as a primary.
-我认为这是一个主要的

819
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,030
Well, it's like do you find this comedian funny?
嗯 就像你觉得这个喜剧演员有趣吗？

820
00:35:30,030 --> 00:35:32,010
It's like, well, I laugh at him.
就像 嗯 我嘲笑他

821
00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:34,890
You know what I mean? It's not propositional again.
你明白我的意思吗？这又不是命题了

822
00:35:34,890 --> 00:35:39,890
And so there are things I would like to ask Mr. Musk about.
所以我想问马斯克一些事情

823
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:44,310
The Mars venture. I don't know what he's up to there.
火星冒险 我不知道他在那里做什么

824
00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:48,000
It strikes me as absurd in the most fundamental sense,
从最基本的意义上说 这让我觉得很荒谬

825
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,620
'cause I think, well, it'd be easier just to build
因为我认为 嗯 仅仅建造会更容易
826
00:35:49,620 --> 00:35:52,410
an outpost in the Antarctica or in the desert.
在南极洲或沙漠中的前哨

827
00:35:52,410 --> 00:35:54,390
- Well, how much of the human endeavor is absurd?
-嗯 人类的努力有多少是荒谬的？

828
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:55,265
- Well.
-嗯

829
00:35:55,265 --> 00:35:56,917
What did Nietzsche say?
尼采说了什么？

830
00:35:56,917 --> 00:35:59,700
"Great men are seldom credited with their stupidity."
“伟人很少被认为是愚蠢的 ”

831
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:01,650
Who the hell knows what Musk is up to.
谁知道马斯克在做什么

832
00:36:01,650 --> 00:36:03,930
I mean, obviously he's building rockets.
我是说 显然他在制造火箭

833
00:36:03,930 --> 00:36:06,180
Now he's motivated because he wants to build
现在他很有动力 因为他想在火星上建造

834
00:36:06,180 --> 00:36:09,060
a platform for life on Mars.
一个生命的平台

835
00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:10,323
Is that a good idea?
这是个好主意吗？

836
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:12,790
Who am I to say?
我该怎么说呢？

837
00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:14,940
He's building the rockets, man,
他在造火箭 伙计
838
00:36:14,940 --> 00:36:16,770
but I'd like to ask him about it.
但我想问问他

839
00:36:16,770 --> 00:36:19,380
- I would like to see that conversation.
-我想看看那个对话

840
00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:24,380
I do think that having talked to him quite a bit offline,
我确实认为在离线和他谈了很多之后

841
00:36:24,660 --> 00:36:25,833
I think these,
我认为这些

842
00:36:27,390 --> 00:36:29,310
several of his ideas like Mars,
他的一些想法 比如火星

843
00:36:29,310 --> 00:36:31,950
like humans becoming a multi-planetary species
就像人类成为一个多行星物种

844
00:36:31,950 --> 00:36:35,610
could be one of the things that human civilization
可能是人类文明的事情之一

845
00:36:35,610 --> 00:36:38,970
looks back at as duh,
回头看是废话

846
00:36:38,970 --> 00:36:41,070
I can't believe he's one of the few people
我不敢相信他是少数几个人之一

847
00:36:41,070 --> 00:36:42,347
that was really pushing this idea
这真的推动了这个想法

848
00:36:42,347 --> 00:36:45,540
'cause it's the obvious thing
因为这是显而易见的事情

849
00:36:45,540 --> 00:36:48,210
for society, for life to survive.
为了社会 为了生命的生存

850
00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:49,590
- Yeah, well it isn't obvious to me
-是的 对我来说并不明显

851
00:36:49,590 --> 00:36:52,620
that I'm in any position to evaluate Elon Musk.
我可以评价埃隆·马斯克

852
00:36:52,620 --> 00:36:53,820
Like I would like to talk to him
就像我想和他谈谈一样

853
00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:55,500
and find out what he's up to and why,
找出他在做什么以及为什么

854
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:58,680
but I mean, he's an impossible person.
但我是说 他是一个不可能的人

855
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,489
What he's done is impossible. All of it.
他所做的是不可能的 所有的一切

856
00:37:01,489 --> 00:37:03,600
It's like he built an electric car that works.
就像他制造了一辆能用的电动汽车

857
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,010
Now, does it work completely
现在 它完全工作了吗

858
00:37:05,010 --> 00:37:07,243
and will it replace gas cars or should it?
它会取代汽油车还是应该取代汽油车？

859
00:37:07,243 --> 00:37:08,100
I don't know,
我不知道

860
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:10,710
but if we're gonna build electric cars,
但是如果我们要制造电动汽车

861
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:14,280
he seems to be the best at that by a lot.
他似乎是最擅长的

862
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,770
And he more or less did that, people carp about him,
他或多或少做到了这一点 人们对他吹毛求疵

863
00:37:16,770 --> 00:37:19,020
but he more or less did that by himself.
但他或多或少是自己做的

864
00:37:19,020 --> 00:37:21,480
I know he's very good at distributing responsibility
我知道他非常擅长分配责任

865
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,280
and all of that, but he's the spearhead.
所有这些 但他是先锋

866
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,140
And then that was pretty hard.
然后这很难

867
00:37:25,140 --> 00:37:26,643
And then he built a rocket.
然后他制造了一枚火箭

868
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:30,690
At like 1/10 the price of NASA rockets.
价格大约是美国航天局火箭的十分之一

869
00:37:30,690 --> 00:37:33,056
And then he shot his car out into space.
然后他把他的车发射到太空

870
00:37:33,056 --> 00:37:34,890
That's pretty hard.
这很难

871
00:37:34,890 --> 00:37:38,190
And then he's building this Boring Company
然后他建立了这个无聊的公司

872
00:37:38,190 --> 00:37:41,220
more or less as a, what would you call it?
或多或少 你会怎么称呼它？

873
00:37:41,220 --> 00:37:44,100
It's sort of, it's this whimsical joke in some sense,
从某种意义上说 这是一个异想天开的笑话

874
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,320
but it's not a joke.
但这不是笑话

875
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,340
He's amazing.
他太棒了

876
00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:51,450
- And Neuralink, delving into the depths of the mind.
-还有 Neuralink 深入心灵深处

877
00:37:51,450 --> 00:37:54,060
- Yeah, and Starlink, it's like go Elon
-是的 还有斯达领科 就像去埃隆

878
00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:55,260
as far as I'm concerned.
就我而言

879
00:37:55,260 --> 00:37:57,150
And then, you know, he puts his finger on things.
然后 你知道 他把手指放到了事情上

880
00:37:57,150 --> 00:38:01,230
So oddly, the problem is under population.
奇怪的是 问题是人口不足

881
00:38:01,230 --> 00:38:02,550
It's like I think so too.
好像我也这么想

882
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:05,250
I think it's a terrible problem that we're.
我认为这是一个可怕的问题

883
00:38:05,250 --> 00:38:06,660
the West, for example,
例如 西方

884
00:38:06,660 --> 00:38:11,010
is no longer at replacement with regard to birth rate.
在出生率方面不再是替代品
885
00:38:11,010 --> 00:38:13,440
It means we've abandoned the virgin and the child
这意味着我们抛弃了处女和孩子

886
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:14,970
in a most fundamental sense.
在最基本的意义上

887
00:38:14,970 --> 00:38:16,920
It's a bloody catastrophe.
这是一场血腥的灾难

888
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,980
And Musk, he sees it clear as can be.
马斯克 他看得很清楚

889
00:38:19,980 --> 00:38:21,090
It's like, wow.
就像 哇

890
00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:22,687
And where everyone else is running around going,
其他人都在跑来跑去的地方

891
00:38:22,687 --> 00:38:24,180
"Oh, there's too many people!"
“哦 人太多了！”

892
00:38:24,180 --> 00:38:26,310
It's like nope.
就像没有

893
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:27,540
Got that.
明白了

894
00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:31,080
See, I've learned that there are falsehoods and lies
看 我明白了有谎言和谎言

895
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,300
and there are anti truths.
也有反真相

896
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:36,090
And an anti truth is something that's so preposterous
反真相是如此荒谬
897
00:38:36,090 --> 00:38:39,660
that you couldn't make a claim
你不能提出要求

898
00:38:39,660 --> 00:38:42,690
that's more opposite to the truth.
这与事实更相反

899
00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:45,630
And the claim that there are too many people on the planet
还有地球上有太多人的说法

900
00:38:45,630 --> 00:38:46,803
is an anti truth.
是反事实的

901
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:49,650
So, you know, people say,"
所以 你知道 人们说 “

902
00:38:49,650 --> 00:38:52,110
Well, you have to accept limits to growth" and etcetera,
嗯 你必须接受增长的限制”等等

903
00:38:52,110 --> 00:38:52,943
it's like
就像

904
00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:56,340
I have to accept the limits
我必须接受限制

905
00:38:56,340 --> 00:38:58,320
that you're going to impose on me
你要强加给我的

906
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,750
'cause you're frightened of the future?
因为你害怕未来？

907
00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:02,520
That's your theory, is it?
这就是你的理论 是吗？

908
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:03,353
Okay.
好吧

909
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:05,730
- Well, it's an idea.
-嗯 这是个想法

910
00:39:05,730 --> 00:39:08,447
It could be a right idea. It could be a wrong idea.
这可能是个正确的想法 也可能是个错误的想法

911
00:39:08,447 --> 00:39:10,160
I don't, I think anti truth...
我不认为 我认为反事实…

912
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,990
- Well, here, I'll tell you why it's the wrong idea.
-好吧 在这里 我会告诉你为什么这是错误的想法

913
00:39:12,990 --> 00:39:13,823
I think.
我想

914
00:39:15,030 --> 00:39:18,690
So imagine that there's an emergency dragon.
所以想象有一条紧急龙

915
00:39:18,690 --> 00:39:20,250
There's a dragon.
有一条龙

916
00:39:20,250 --> 00:39:22,260
And someone comes and says, "There's a dragon!
有人走过来说 “有一条龙！

917
00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:23,710
I'm the guy to deal with it."
我是处理它的人 ”

918
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,220
That's what the environmentalists say,
这就是环保主义者所说的

919
00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:29,670
the radical types who push limits to growth.
推动增长极限的激进分子

920
00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:31,570
Then I look at them and I think, okay,
然后我看着他们 我想 好吧

921
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,430
is that dragon real or not?
那条龙是真的还是假的？

922
00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:36,750
That's one question.
这是一个问题

923
00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:38,120
Well- - I ask that question
嗯——我问这个问题

924
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,380
on myself every time when I spend time alone.
每次当我独处的时候 我都会问自己

925
00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:42,946
- Is the apocalypse looming on the environmental front?
-环境方面的末日是否迫在眉睫？

926
00:39:42,946 --> 00:39:46,800
Yes or no. I'll just leave that aside for the time being.
是或不是 我暂时把它放在一边

927
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,720
I think you can make a case both ways
我认为你可以两种方式都提出理由

928
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,520
for a bunch of different reasons
出于一系列不同的原因

929
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,680
and it's not a trivial concern.
这不是一个微不足道的问题

930
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,140
And we've over fished the oceans terribly.
我们过度捕捞海洋

931
00:39:55,140 --> 00:39:59,430
And there are environmental issues that are looming large,
还有一些环境问题迫在眉睫

932
00:39:59,430 --> 00:40:01,980
whether climate change is the cardinal one or not
气候变化是否是最重要的问题

933
00:40:01,980 --> 00:40:04,710
is a whole different question, but we won't get into that.
是一个完全不同的问题 但我们不会深入讨论

934
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:08,220
That's not the issue. You're clamoring about a dragon.
这不是问题所在 你在吵着要一条龙

935
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:09,600
Okay.
好吧

936
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,460
Why should I listen to you?
我为什么要听你的？

937
00:40:11,460 --> 00:40:14,370
Well, let's see how you're reacting to the dragon.
好吧 让我们看看你对龙的反应

938
00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:15,930
First of all, you're scared stiff
首先 你吓坏了

939
00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:17,403
and in the state of panic.
处于恐慌状态

940
00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:21,810
That might indicate you're not the man for the job.
这可能表明你不是这份工作的合适人选

941
00:40:21,810 --> 00:40:25,290
Second, you're willing to use compulsion
其次 你愿意使用强迫

942
00:40:25,290 --> 00:40:28,410
to harness other people to fight the dragon for you.
利用其他人为你与龙战斗

943
00:40:28,410 --> 00:40:30,990
So now not only are you terrified,
所以现在你不仅害怕
944
00:40:30,990 --> 00:40:33,300
you're a terrified tyrant.
你是一个害怕的暴君

945
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:34,200
So then I would say,
所以我会说

946
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,240
well then you're not the Moses that we need
那你就不是我们需要的摩西

947
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,360
to lead us outta this particular Exodus.
带领我们走出出埃及记

948
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,490
And maybe that's a neurological explanation.
也许这是一个神经学的解释

949
00:40:41,490 --> 00:40:45,060
It's like, if you're so afraid of what you're facing
就像 如果你如此害怕你所面临的

950
00:40:45,060 --> 00:40:47,940
that you're terrified into paralysis and nihilism,
你害怕瘫痪和虚无主义

951
00:40:47,940 --> 00:40:50,340
and that you're willing to use tyrannical compulsion
你愿意使用专制的强迫

952
00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:51,600
to get your way,
为了达到你的目的

953
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,300
you are not the right leader for the time.
你不是当时合适的领导者

954
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:57,600
So then I like someone like Bjorn Lomborg or Matt Ridley
所以我喜欢比约恩·隆堡或马特·雷德利

955
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,070
or Marion Tupy.
或者玛丽昂·图皮
956
00:40:59,070 --> 00:41:00,600
And they say, "Well, look,
他们说 “好吧 听着

957
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,752
we've got our environmental problems
我们有环境问题

958
00:41:02,752 --> 00:41:06,870
and maybe you could make a case
也许你可以提出一个理由

959
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:11,130
that there's a malthusian element in some situations,
在某些情况下存在马尔萨斯元素

960
00:41:11,130 --> 00:41:14,580
but fundamentally the track record of the human race
但从根本上说 人类的记录

961
00:41:14,580 --> 00:41:18,540
is that we learn very fast and faster all the time
我们总是学得越来越快

962
00:41:18,540 --> 00:41:20,880
to do more with less.
事半功倍

963
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,070
And we've got this.
我们做到了

964
00:41:23,070 --> 00:41:26,220
And I think yes
我认为是的

965
00:41:26,220 --> 00:41:27,840
to that idea.
对这个想法

966
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,430
And I think about it in a fundamental way.
我从根本上思考这个问题

967
00:41:32,430 --> 00:41:35,220
It's like, I trust Lomborg.
就像 我信任隆堡

968
00:41:35,220 --> 00:41:36,433
I trust Tupy.
我信任图皮

969
00:41:36,433 --> 00:41:38,340
I trust Matt Ridley.
我信任马特·雷德利

970
00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:40,170
They've thought about these things deeply.
他们已经深入思考过这些事情

971
00:41:40,170 --> 00:41:41,003
They're not just saying,
他们不只是说

972
00:41:41,003 --> 00:41:42,300
"Oh, the environment doesn't matter."
“哦 环境并不重要 ”

973
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:44,103
Whatever the environment is.
不管环境是什么

974
00:41:44,970 --> 00:41:47,520
You know, the environment, I don't even know what that is.
你知道 环境 我甚至不知道那是什么

975
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,870
That's everything.
这就是一切

976
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:49,703
The environment.
环境

977
00:41:49,703 --> 00:41:52,130
I'm concerned about the environment, it's like...
我关心环境 就像…

978
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:55,717
Which how is that different than saying,
这和说

979
00:41:55,717 --> 00:41:57,288
"I'm worried about everything"?
“我担心一切”有什么不同？

980
00:41:57,288 --> 00:41:59,913
How are those statements different semantically?
这些陈述在语义上有什么不同？

981
00:42:00,810 --> 00:42:02,880
- Well, yeah, the environment, it could be
-嗯 是的 环境 可能是

982
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,980
I'm worried about human society.
我担心人类社会

983
00:42:04,980 --> 00:42:07,620
A lot of these complex systems are difficult to talk about
很多这些复杂的系统很难谈论

984
00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:09,600
because there's so much involved for sure.
因为肯定涉及太多了

985
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,980
- Yeah. Everything.
-是的 一切

986
00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:12,347
And then these models,
然后是这些模型

987
00:42:12,347 --> 00:42:14,190
'cause people have gone after me
因为有人在追我

988
00:42:14,190 --> 00:42:15,990
'cause I don't buy the climate models.
因为我不相信气候模型

989
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:19,590
Well, I think about the climate models as extended
嗯 我认为气候模型可以扩展

990
00:42:19,590 --> 00:42:23,013
into the economic models because the climate model is,
进入经济模型 因为气候模型是

991
00:42:24,030 --> 00:42:26,010
well, there's gonna be a certain degree of heating
嗯 会有一定程度的加热

992
00:42:26,010 --> 00:42:27,303
let's say by 2100.
假设到 2100 年

993
00:42:27,303 --> 00:42:29,340
It's like, okay.
就像 好吧

994
00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:30,930
Some of that might be human generated.
其中一些可能是人类产生的

995
00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:33,720
Some of it's a consequence of warming after the Ice Age.
其中一些是冰河世纪后变暖的结果

996
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:36,270
This has happened before, but fair enough.
这以前发生过 但很公平

997
00:42:36,270 --> 00:42:38,610
Let's take your presumption.
让我们接受你的假设

998
00:42:38,610 --> 00:42:40,770
Although there are multiple presumptions
尽管有多种假设

999
00:42:40,770 --> 00:42:44,880
and any error in your model multiplies as time extends,
随着时间的推移 你模型中的任何错误都会成倍增加

1000
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,258
but have it your way.
但随你便

1001
00:42:46,258 --> 00:42:48,720
Okay, now we're gonna extend the climate model
好吧 现在我们要扩展气候模型

1002
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:50,850
so to speak into the economic model.
可以说进入经济模型
1003
00:42:50,850 --> 00:42:53,793
So I just did an analysis of a paper by Deloitte.
所以我刚刚分析了德勤的一篇论文

1004
00:42:55,050 --> 00:42:57,843
Third biggest company in the US.
美国第三大公司

1005
00:42:58,848 --> 00:43:01,950
300,000 employees, major league consultants,
30 万员工 大联盟顾问

1006
00:43:01,950 --> 00:43:03,750
they just produced a report in May.
他们刚刚在 5 月份发表了一份报告

1007
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:05,490
I wrote an article for it in "The Telegraph,"
我在“每日电讯报”上为此写了一篇文章

1008
00:43:05,490 --> 00:43:08,790
which I'm gonna release this week on my YouTube channel.
本周我将在我的 YouTube 频道上发布

1009
00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:12,150
Said, well, if we get the climate problem
说 如果我们遇到气候问题

1010
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:14,610
under control economically,
在经济上得到控制

1011
00:43:14,610 --> 00:43:16,410
'cause that's where the models are now
因为这就是模型现在所在的位置

1012
00:43:16,410 --> 00:43:18,000
being generated on the economic front.
在经济战线上产生

1013
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,460
So now we have to model the environment,
所以现在我们必须模拟环境

1014
00:43:20,460 --> 00:43:21,390
that's climate,
那就是气候
1015
00:43:21,390 --> 00:43:23,610
and we have to model the economy,
我们必须模拟经济

1016
00:43:23,610 --> 00:43:26,520
and then we have to model their joint interaction,
然后我们必须模拟它们的联合相互作用

1017
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,730
and then we have to predict 100 years into the future.
然后我们必须预测 100 年后的未来

1018
00:43:29,730 --> 00:43:32,670
And then we have to put a dollar value on that.
然后我们必须给它一个美元价值

1019
00:43:32,670 --> 00:43:35,400
And then we have to claim that we can do that,
然后我们必须声称我们可以做到这一点

1020
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,870
which we can't.
但我们不能

1021
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:38,763
And then this is our conclusion.
这是我们的结论

1022
00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:43,860
We're going to go through a difficult period of privation
我们将经历一段艰难的贫困时期

1023
00:43:43,860 --> 00:43:45,720
because if we don't accept limits to growth,
因为如果我们不接受增长的限制

1024
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,970
there's gonna be a catastrophe 50 years
50 年后将会有一场灾难

1025
00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:49,410
in the future or thereabout.
在未来或左右

1026
00:43:49,410 --> 00:43:52,110
And so to avert that catastrophe,
所以为了避免这场灾难

1027
00:43:52,110 --> 00:43:54,570
we are going to make people poorer.
我们要让人们变得更穷

1028
00:43:54,570 --> 00:43:57,000
Now how much poor?
现在有多少穷人？

1029
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,860
Well, not a lot compared to how much richer
嗯 和有多富有相比不算多

1030
00:43:58,860 --> 00:44:01,530
they're going to be, but definitely,
他们会 但肯定

1031
00:44:01,530 --> 00:44:04,530
and they say this in their own models, definitely poorer,
他们在自己的模型中说 肯定更穷

1032
00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:07,200
definitely poorer than they would be
肯定比他们更穷

1033
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,020
if we just left them the hell alone.
如果我们让他们一个人呆着

1034
00:44:10,020 --> 00:44:11,613
And so then I think, okay,
然后我想 好吧

1035
00:44:12,540 --> 00:44:14,250
poorer, ay?
更穷 嗯？

1036
00:44:14,250 --> 00:44:15,240
Who?
谁？

1037
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,160
Well let's look at biologically.
让我们从生物学的角度来看

1038
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:18,480
You got a hierarchy, right?
你有等级制度 对吗？

1039
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,950
Of stability and security.
稳定和安全

1040
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:25,083
That's a hierarchy, or one type.
这是等级制度 或者一种类型

1041
00:44:26,460 --> 00:44:28,980
You stress a hierarchy like that, a social hierarchy.
你强调这样的等级制度 社会阶层

1042
00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:31,920
So there's birds in a environment.
所以环境中有鸟

1043
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:33,510
And an avian flu comes in.
禽流感来了

1044
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:35,730
And then you look at the birds in the social hierarchy
然后你看看社会阶层中的鸟

1045
00:44:35,730 --> 00:44:39,600
and the low ranking birds have the worst nests
而等级低的鸟类的巢穴最差

1046
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,760
so they're most exposed to wind and rain and sun
所以它们最容易受到风吹雨打

1047
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,010
and farthest from food supplies
离食物供应最远

1048
00:44:44,010 --> 00:44:45,330
and most exposed to predators.
也最容易受到捕食者的伤害

1049
00:44:45,330 --> 00:44:46,860
And so those birds are stressed,
所以这些鸟类压力很大

1050
00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:49,140
which is what happens to you at the bottom of a hierarchy.
这就是你在等级制度的最底层发生的事情

1051
00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:51,907
You're more stressed 'cause your life is more uncertain.
你压力更大 因为你的生活更不确定

1052
00:44:51,907 --> 00:44:54,240
You're more stressed, your immunological function
你压力更大 你的免疫功能

1053
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:56,280
is compromised because of that.
因此受到损害

1054
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,580
You're sacrificing the future for the present.
你在为现在牺牲未来

1055
00:44:59,550 --> 00:45:02,940
An avian flu comes in and the birds die from the bottom up.
禽流感来了 鸟类自下而上死亡

1056
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:07,410
That happens in every epidemic, you die from the bottom up.
这发生在每一次流行病中 你自下而上死亡

1057
00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:08,310
Okay?
好吗？

1058
00:45:08,310 --> 00:45:11,850
So they say, when the aristocracy catches a cold,
所以他们说 当贵族感冒时

1059
00:45:11,850 --> 00:45:13,980
the working class dies of pneumonia.
工人阶级死于肺炎

1060
00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:16,430
All right. So now we're gonna make people poorer.
好吧 所以现在我们要让人们更穷

1061
00:45:17,850 --> 00:45:19,470
Okay. Who?
好吧 谁？
1062
00:45:19,470 --> 00:45:23,040
Well, we know who we make poor when we make people poorer,
嗯 当我们让人们更穷的时候 我们知道我们让谁变穷了

1063
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,210
we make those who are barely hanging on poorer.
我们让那些勉强坚持下去的人更穷

1064
00:45:27,210 --> 00:45:28,920
And what does that mean?
这意味着什么？

1065
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,900
It means they die.
这意味着他们会死

1066
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:34,440
And so what the Deloitte consultants are basically saying
所以德勤顾问基本上是在说

1067
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,828
is, "Well, you know, it's kind of unfortunate,
“嗯 你知道 这有点不幸

1068
00:45:38,828 --> 00:45:41,760
but according to our models,
但是根据我们的模型

1069
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,670
a lot of poor people are gonna have to die
很多穷人将不得不死去

1070
00:45:44,670 --> 00:45:47,370
so that a lot more poor people don't die in the future."
这样将来就不会有更多的穷人死去 ”

1071
00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:49,500
It's like, okay, hold on a sec.
就像 好吧 等一下

1072
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:50,580
Which of those two things
这两件事中的哪一件

1073
00:45:50,580 --> 00:45:52,830
am I supposed to regard with certainty?
我应该肯定地考虑吗？
1074
00:45:52,830 --> 00:45:54,420
The hypothetical poor people
假设的穷人

1075
00:45:54,420 --> 00:45:57,900
that you're gonna hypothetically save 100 years from now,
假设你会从现在起拯救 100 年后

1076
00:45:57,900 --> 00:45:59,460
or the actual poor people
或者真正的穷人

1077
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:04,460
that you are actually going to kill in the next 10 years?
你真的会在未来 10 年内杀人？

1078
00:46:04,669 --> 00:46:08,070
Well, I'm gonna cast my law with the actual poor people
好吧 我要用我的法律来衡量真正的穷人

1079
00:46:08,070 --> 00:46:09,820
that you're actually going to kill.
你真的会杀人

1080
00:46:10,871 --> 00:46:13,890
And then I think further it's like, well, okay,
然后我进一步想 就像 嗯 好吧

1081
00:46:13,890 --> 00:46:16,290
the Deloitte consultants,
德勤顾问

1082
00:46:16,290 --> 00:46:18,210
have you actually modeled the world
你真的模拟了世界吗

1083
00:46:18,210 --> 00:46:20,700
or is this a big advertising shtick
还是这是一个很大的广告技巧

1084
00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:22,680
designed to attract your corporate clients
旨在吸引你的企业客户

1085
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,960
with demonstration that you're so intelligent
通过展示你是如此聪明

1086
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,330
that you can actually model the entire ecosystem
你实际上可以模拟整个生态系统

1087
00:46:27,330 --> 00:46:30,150
of the world, including the economic system
世界 包括经济体系

1088
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:32,550
and predict it 100 years forward.
并预测 100 年后

1089
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:34,290
And isn't there a bit of a moral hazard
难道没有一点道德风险吗

1090
00:46:34,290 --> 00:46:36,435
making a claim like that?
做出这样的声明？

1091
00:46:36,435 --> 00:46:39,240
Just a trifle, especially when...
只是小事 尤其是当…

1092
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:42,150
So I talked to Bjorn Lomborg and Michael Leon on last week.
上周我和比约恩·隆伯格和迈克尔·莱昂谈过了

1093
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:47,150
I accepted the UN estimates of starvation this coming year.
我接受了联合国对来年饥饿的估计

1094
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,230
150 million people we'll suffer food insecurity.
1.50 亿人 我们将遭受粮食不安全

1095
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:54,300
Food insecurity.
粮食不安全

1096
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:56,040
Yeah. Food insecurity.
是的 粮食不安全

1097
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,100
That's the bloody buzzword. Famine.
这是一个血腥的流行语 饥荒

1098
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:03,150
Well, Michael Yon thought 1.2 billion.
迈克尔·杨认为 12 亿

1099
00:47:03,150 --> 00:47:05,910
And then that it'll spiral because he said
然后它会螺旋上升 因为他说

1100
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:07,530
what happens in a famine
饥荒会发生什么

1101
00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:11,100
is that the governments go nuts, crazy.
政府会发疯 发疯

1102
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:13,023
The governments destabilize.
政府会不稳定

1103
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,520
And then they appropriate the food from the farmers.
然后他们从农民那里拿走食物

1104
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,830
Then the farmers don't have any money,
然后农民没有钱

1105
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:21,810
then they can't grow crops.
然后他们不能种植庄稼

1106
00:47:21,810 --> 00:47:24,390
And I think, yeah, that's exactly what they do.
我想 是的 这正是他们所做的

1107
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:26,490
That's exactly what would happen.
这正是会发生的

1108
00:47:26,490 --> 00:47:29,580
And so Yon told me 1.2 billion.
所以 Yon 告诉我 12 亿

1109
00:47:29,580 --> 00:47:32,100
And then Bjorn Lomborg said the same thing.
然后 Bjorn Lomborg 说了同样的话

1110
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:33,090
I didn't even ask him.
我甚至没有问他

1111
00:47:33,090 --> 00:47:35,223
He just made it as an offhand comment.
他只是随口说说

1112
00:47:36,690 --> 00:47:39,570
So- - Let me ask you about
所以——让我问你

1113
00:47:39,570 --> 00:47:42,183
the famine of the 30s. - Yeah.
30 年代的饥荒 -是的

1114
00:47:43,110 --> 00:47:44,087
- Do you think- - In the Ukraine.
-你认为——在乌克兰

1115
00:47:44,087 --> 00:47:46,230
- In the Ukraine. - Oh yeah.
-在乌克兰 -哦 是的

1116
00:47:46,230 --> 00:47:48,570
Fun, fun, fun. - Similar.
有趣 有趣 有趣 -类似

1117
00:47:48,570 --> 00:47:51,390
A lot of the things you mentioned in the last few sentences
你在最后几句话中提到的很多事情

1118
00:47:51,390 --> 00:47:55,140
kind of echo to that part of human history.
有点像人类历史的那一部分

1119
00:47:55,140 --> 00:47:56,678
- [Jordan] The hole in the door.
-[乔丹]门上的洞

1120
00:47:56,678 --> 00:47:58,620
No one knows about.
没人知道
1121
00:47:58,620 --> 00:47:59,670
(Lex chuckling)
（莱克斯笑）

1122
00:47:59,670 --> 00:48:02,460
- Well now I've just spent four weeks in Ukraine.
-现在我刚刚在乌克兰呆了四个星期

1123
00:48:02,460 --> 00:48:03,660
- Oh yeah. - There's different parts
-哦 是的 -有不同的地方

1124
00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:05,310
of the world that still,
世界上仍然

1125
00:48:05,310 --> 00:48:08,850
even if they don't know, they know.
即使他们不知道 他们也知道

1126
00:48:08,850 --> 00:48:11,700
- Yeah. Right. - They feel history
-是的 没错 -他们感觉到历史

1127
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:12,533
runs in the blood.
流淌在血液中

1128
00:48:12,533 --> 00:48:15,000
- The Dutch knew in some sense,
-荷兰人在某种意义上知道

1129
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,860
they had a famine at the end of World War II,
他们在第二次世界大战结束时经历了饥荒

1130
00:48:16,860 --> 00:48:19,470
and part of the reason the Dutch farmers are so unbelievably
荷兰农民如此难以置信的部分原因

1131
00:48:19,470 --> 00:48:22,620
efficient and productive is that the Dutch swore
高效和高产是荷兰人发誓的

1132
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:23,910
at the end of World War II that
在第二次世界大战结束时

1133
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:26,400
that was not going to happen again.
那不会再发生了

1134
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,670
And then they had to scrape land out of the ocean
然后他们不得不从海洋中挖出陆地

1135
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:31,290
'cause Holland, that's quite a country.
因为荷兰 那是一个相当大的国家

1136
00:48:31,290 --> 00:48:32,790
It shouldn't even exist.
它甚至不应该存在

1137
00:48:32,790 --> 00:48:35,190
The fact that it's the world's number two exporter,
事实上 它是世界第二大出口国

1138
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:37,170
you know that' it's the world's number two exporter
你知道 它是世界第二大农产品出口国

1139
00:48:37,170 --> 00:48:39,930
of agriculture products, Holland.
荷兰

1140
00:48:39,930 --> 00:48:43,380
It's like I don't think it's as big as Massachusetts.
好像我不认为它有马萨诸塞州那么大

1141
00:48:43,380 --> 00:48:46,470
It's this little tiny place. It shouldn't even exist.
这是一个小地方 它甚至不应该存在

1142
00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:49,410
And they wanna put, here's the plan.
他们想把 计划是这样的

1143
00:48:49,410 --> 00:48:52,710
Let's put 30% of the farmers out of business.
让我们让 30%的农民破产

1144
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:55,800
Well the broader ecosystem of agricultural production
好吧 更广泛的农业生产生态系统

1145
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,470
in Holland is 6% of their GDP.
在荷兰占其国内生产总值的 6%

1146
00:48:58,470 --> 00:49:01,136
Now these centralizing politicians think,
现在这些中央集权的政治家认为

1147
00:49:01,136 --> 00:49:05,763
tell me if I'm stupid about this, take an industry,
告诉我如果我在这方面很愚蠢 拿一个行业来说

1148
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,320
you knock it back by fiat by 30%.
你通过法令将其削减 30%

1149
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:15,270
Now it runs on like a 3% profit margin.
现在它的利润率只有 3%

1150
00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:17,463
Now you're gonna kill 30% of it.
现在你要杀死其中的 30%

1151
00:49:18,690 --> 00:49:20,580
How are you not gonna bring the whole thing down?
你怎么能不把整件事搞砸呢？

1152
00:49:20,580 --> 00:49:22,920
The whole farming ecosystem down?
整个农业生态系统崩溃了？

1153
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,180
How are you not gonna impoverish the transport systems?
你怎么能不让交通系统变得贫瘠？

1154
00:49:27,180 --> 00:49:30,780
How are you not gonna demolish the grocery stores?
你怎么能不拆除杂货店？

1155
00:49:30,780 --> 00:49:34,410
You can't take something like that and pare it back by fiat
你不能接受这样的东西 然后通过法令削减它

1156
00:49:34,410 --> 00:49:37,170
by 30% and not kill it.
削减 30%而不杀死它

1157
00:49:37,170 --> 00:49:39,420
I can't see how you can do that.
我看不出你怎么能做到这一点

1158
00:49:39,420 --> 00:49:41,674
I mean, look what we did with the COVID lockdowns.
我是说 看看我们对新冠疫情封锁做了什么

1159
00:49:41,674 --> 00:49:43,920
We broke the supply chains.
我们打破了供应链

1160
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,602
Have you tried buying something lately?
你最近试过买东西吗？

1161
00:49:46,602 --> 00:49:50,460
And wait, aren't the Chinese threatening Taiwan
等等 中国人不是在威胁台湾吗

1162
00:49:50,460 --> 00:49:51,293
at the moment?
现在？

1163
00:49:51,293 --> 00:49:52,720
What are we gonna do without chips?
没有芯片我们该怎么办？

1164
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,760
So I don't know what these people are thinking.
所以我不知道这些人在想什么

1165
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,290
And then I think, okay, what are they thinking?
然后我想 好吧 他们在想什么？

1166
00:49:58,290 --> 00:50:00,540
Well, the Deloitte people are thinking aren't we smart
德勤的人在想 我们不聪明吗？

1167
00:50:00,540 --> 00:50:02,970
and shouldn't we be hired by our corporate employers?
我们不应该被公司雇主雇佣吗？
1168
00:50:02,970 --> 00:50:05,883
It's like, okay, too bad about the poor.
就像 好吧 穷人太糟糕了

1169
00:50:06,810 --> 00:50:09,720
What are the environmentalist thinking?
环保主义者在想什么？

1170
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:11,130
We love the planet.
我们爱这个星球

1171
00:50:11,130 --> 00:50:12,660
It's like, do you?
就像 是吗？

1172
00:50:12,660 --> 00:50:14,010
We love the poor.
我们爱穷人

1173
00:50:14,010 --> 00:50:15,360
Do you? Okay.
是吗？好吧

1174
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,130
Let's pit the planet against the poor.
让我们让地球和穷人对抗

1175
00:50:17,130 --> 00:50:18,510
Who wins? The planet.
谁赢了？地球

1176
00:50:18,510 --> 00:50:20,717
Okay. You don't love the poor that much.
好吧 你没那么爱穷人

1177
00:50:20,717 --> 00:50:24,840
Do you love the planet or do you hate capitalism?
你爱这个星球还是讨厌资本主义？

1178
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,270
Let's pit those two things against each other.
让我们把这两件事放在一起

1179
00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:29,910
Oh, well it turns out we actually hate capitalism.
哦 事实证明 我们实际上讨厌资本主义
1180
00:50:29,910 --> 00:50:31,500
How can we tell?
我们怎么知道呢？

1181
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:33,480
Because you're willing to break it.
因为你愿意打破它

1182
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,620
And you know what's gonna happen.
你知道会发生什么

1183
00:50:34,620 --> 00:50:36,000
So what's gonna happen in Sri Lanka
那么斯里兰卡会发生什么

1184
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,030
with these 20 million people who now have nothing to eat?
和这些现在没有东西吃的 2000 万人在一起？

1185
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:40,950
Are they gonna eat all the animals?
他们会吃掉所有的动物吗？

1186
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:42,540
Are they gonna burn all the firewood.
他们会烧掉所有的木柴吗？

1187
00:50:42,540 --> 00:50:44,583
Their stockpiling firewood in Germany.
他们在德国囤积木柴

1188
00:50:45,570 --> 00:50:48,370
It's like so is your environmental globalist utopia
就像你的环境全球主义乌托邦一样

1189
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,780
gonna kill the poor and destroy the planet?
要杀死穷人 摧毁地球？

1190
00:50:51,780 --> 00:50:54,240
And that's okay 'cause we'll wipe out capitalism.
这没关系 因为我们会消灭资本主义

1191
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:55,770
It's like okay. - Yeah.
就像没事一样 -是的

1192
00:50:55,770 --> 00:50:59,160
The dragon and the fear of the dragon drives ideologies,
龙和对龙的恐惧驱动意识形态

1193
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,080
some of which can build a better world,
其中一些可以建立一个更美好的世界

1194
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,210
some of which can destroy that world.
其中一些可以摧毁那个世界

1195
00:51:03,210 --> 00:51:04,757
- Now, what do you think of that theory
-现在 你觉得这个理论怎么样

1196
00:51:04,757 --> 00:51:07,410
about trustworthiness?
关于可信度？

1197
00:51:07,410 --> 00:51:09,570
If the dragon that you're facing
如果你面对的龙

1198
00:51:09,570 --> 00:51:12,060
turns you into a terrified tyrant.
把你变成一个惊恐的暴君

1199
00:51:12,060 --> 00:51:14,280
You're not the man for the job.
你不是这个工作的人

1200
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,570
Is that a good theory?
这是一个好理论吗？

1201
00:51:15,570 --> 00:51:17,820
- It's an interesting theory. Let me use that theory.
-这是一个有趣的理论 让我用这个理论

1202
00:51:17,820 --> 00:51:21,000
It's a challenge because what does terror look like?
这是一个挑战 因为恐怖是什么样的？

1203
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,443
Let me table the turns. Turn the tables on you.
让我扭转局面 扭转局面

1204
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:28,510
You are
你是

1205
00:51:31,860 --> 00:51:36,860
terrified, afraid, concerned about the dragon
害怕 害怕 担心龙

1206
00:51:37,170 --> 00:51:41,823
of something we can call communism, Marxism.
我们可以称之为共产主义 马克思主义的东西

1207
00:51:43,590 --> 00:51:44,700
- Am i terrified of it?
-我害怕吗？

1208
00:51:44,700 --> 00:51:47,070
Not terrified enough to be a tyrant.
没有害怕到成为暴君

1209
00:51:47,070 --> 00:51:48,900
- Your theories had two components.
-你的理论有两个组成部分

1210
00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:50,927
- [Jordan] Yeah. I'm not paralyzed.
-[·乔丹]是的 我没有瘫痪

1211
00:51:50,927 --> 00:51:53,430
- It had a dragon. - Yeah. I'm not paralyzed
-它有一条龙 -是的 我没有瘫痪

1212
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:55,320
and I don't want to be a tyrant.
我不想成为暴君

1213
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,353
- The tyrant part I think is missing with you,
-我认为你缺少暴君的部分

1214
00:51:59,250 --> 00:52:00,810
but you are very concerned.
但是你非常担心

1215
00:52:00,810 --> 00:52:02,710
The intensity of your feeling
你感觉的强度

1216
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,730
does not give much space, actually,
实际上并没有给太多空间

1217
00:52:08,730 --> 00:52:11,040
at least in your public persona
至少在你的公众形象中

1218
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,680
for sitting quietly with the dragon
安静地和龙坐在一起

1219
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,680
and sipping a couple of beers and thinking about this thing.
喝几杯啤酒 思考这件事

1220
00:52:17,730 --> 00:52:20,490
The intensity of your anger,
你愤怒的强度

1221
00:52:20,490 --> 00:52:25,020
concern about certain things you're seeing in society.
对你在社会上看到的某些事情的担忧

1222
00:52:25,020 --> 00:52:27,120
Is that going to drive you off the path
这会让你偏离正轨吗

1223
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,490
that ultimately takes us to better world?
最终把我们带到更美好的世界？

1224
00:52:29,490 --> 00:52:30,780
- That's a good question.
-这是个好问题

1225
00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:33,780
I mean, I'm trying to get that right.
我是说 我正在努力把它弄对

1226
00:52:33,780 --> 00:52:36,450
So we've kind of come to a cultural conclusion
所以我们已经得出了一个文化结论
1227
00:52:36,450 --> 00:52:37,533
about the Nazis.
关于纳粹

1228
00:52:38,580 --> 00:52:40,830
Do you get to be angry about the Nazis?
你会对纳粹感到愤怒吗？

1229
00:52:40,830 --> 00:52:42,753
Seems the answer to that is yes.
似乎答案是肯定的

1230
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,473
- Well actually let me push back here.
-好吧 让我回到这里

1231
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,017
I also don't trust people who are angry about the Nazis.
我也不相信那些对纳粹感到愤怒的人

1232
00:52:51,017 --> 00:52:53,160
- [Jordan] Fair. I mean the actual Nazis.
-[·乔丹]公平 我是说真正的纳粹

1233
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:53,993
- Well,
-嗯

1234
00:52:54,964 --> 00:52:58,480
as you know, there's a lot of people in the world
如你所知 世界上有很多人

1235
00:53:02,518 --> 00:53:04,637
that use actual Nazis to mean a lot of things.
用真正的纳粹来表示很多事情

1236
00:53:04,637 --> 00:53:06,200
- I know, I know. - One of them
-我知道 我知道 -其中之一

1237
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:07,290
is very important to Me.
对我来说非常重要

1238
00:53:07,290 --> 00:53:09,123
- Me for example. - Well, yes.
-比如我 -嗯 是的
1239
00:53:10,497 --> 00:53:13,830
- He's a Nazi, or magical super Nazi as it turns out.
-他是纳粹 或者说是神奇的超级纳粹

1240
00:53:13,830 --> 00:53:15,690
- I think to actually sort of steel man
-我认为实际上有点像钢铁人

1241
00:53:15,690 --> 00:53:16,740
all their perspectives,
他们所有的观点

1242
00:53:16,740 --> 00:53:20,490
I think a lot of people that call you a Nazi mean it.
我认为很多叫你纳粹的人是认真的

1243
00:53:20,490 --> 00:53:21,363
So- - Yeah.
所以——是的

1244
00:53:22,936 --> 00:53:24,540
I'm aware of that.
我知道

1245
00:53:24,540 --> 00:53:26,280
- There's an important thing there though,
-不过 那里有一件重要的事情

1246
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,010
because I went to the front in Ukraine.
因为我去了乌克兰的前线

1247
00:53:29,010 --> 00:53:31,120
- Yeah. - And a lot of the people
-是的 -还有很多人

1248
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:36,330
that lost their home or they're kind of,
失去了他们的家或者他们有点

1249
00:53:36,330 --> 00:53:39,540
that got to interact a lot with the Russian soldiers,
与俄罗斯士兵有很多互动

1250
00:53:39,540 --> 00:53:42,440
Ukrainian people that interacted with the Russian soldiers,
与俄罗斯士兵互动的乌克兰人

1251
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,440
they reported that the Russian soldiers
他们报告说 俄罗斯士兵

1252
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:51,440
really believe they're saving the people
真的相信他们在拯救人民

1253
00:53:51,870 --> 00:53:55,830
of Ukraine in these local villages from the Nazis.
乌克兰在这些当地村庄从纳粹手中

1254
00:53:55,830 --> 00:53:58,680
- I understand. Yeah. - So to them,
-我明白 是的 -所以对他们来说

1255
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,990
it's not just that the Ukraine government has,
不仅仅是乌克兰政府有

1256
00:54:00,990 --> 00:54:02,910
or Ukraine has some Nazis.
或者乌克兰有一些纳粹

1257
00:54:02,910 --> 00:54:05,130
It's like, it has been,
就像 它已经

1258
00:54:05,130 --> 00:54:08,160
the idea is that the Nazis have taken over Ukraine
这个想法是纳粹已经接管了乌克兰

1259
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:09,930
and we need to free them.
我们需要解放他们

1260
00:54:09,930 --> 00:54:11,250
This is the belief. - Yeah.
这就是信念 -是的

1261
00:54:11,250 --> 00:54:15,840
- So again, Nazi is still a dragon that lives.
-所以 纳粹仍然是一条活着的龙

1262
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,060
- Yeah. - And it's used by people
-是的 -它被人们使用

1263
00:54:18,060 --> 00:54:20,400
because it's safe to sit next to that dragon
因为坐在那条龙旁边是安全的

1264
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,740
and spread any kind of ideology you want.
传播任何你想要的意识形态

1265
00:54:22,740 --> 00:54:27,280
So I just wanna kind of say that we have agreed
所以我只想说 我们已经达成了一致

1266
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:31,890
on this particular dragon,
在这条特定的龙上

1267
00:54:31,890 --> 00:54:34,363
but I still don't trust anybody who uses that word.
但我仍然不相信任何使用这个词的人

1268
00:54:34,363 --> 00:54:36,870
- Yeah, well, we have issues with boundaries, right?
-是的 好吧 我们有界限的问题 对吗？

1269
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:38,040
No, no. (Lex chuckles)
不 不 （莱克斯笑）

1270
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,710
So this is a very complicated problem. Right?
所以这是一个非常复杂的问题 对吗？

1271
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:42,760
So Rene Girard believed that
所以雷内·吉拉德相信这一点

1272
00:54:43,980 --> 00:54:46,950
it was of human proclivity to demonize the scapegoat
妖魔化替罪羊是人类的倾向

1273
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:48,450
and then drive it out of the village.
然后把它赶出村庄

1274
00:54:48,450 --> 00:54:50,790
And I've thought about that a lot.
我想了很多

1275
00:54:50,790 --> 00:54:54,330
We need a place to put Satan, like seriously,
我们需要一个地方放撒旦 说真的

1276
00:54:54,330 --> 00:54:55,890
this is a serious issue.
这是一个严重的问题

1277
00:54:55,890 --> 00:54:58,290
- [Lex] Should he be inside the village or outside?
-[莱克斯]他应该在村子里还是外面？

1278
00:54:58,290 --> 00:55:00,363
- Well, maybe he should be inside you.
-嗯 也许他应该在你体内

1279
00:55:01,740 --> 00:55:02,573
Right?
对吗？

1280
00:55:02,573 --> 00:55:05,700
That's the fundamental essence of the Christian doctrine.
这是基督教教义的基本本质

1281
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:09,930
It's like Satan is best fought on the battleground
就像撒旦最好在战场上战斗

1282
00:55:09,930 --> 00:55:11,013
of your soul.
你的灵魂

1283
00:55:12,570 --> 00:55:15,213
And that's, it's right.
这是对的

1284
00:55:16,140 --> 00:55:17,670
It's right.
这是对的

1285
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:19,323
- Can you actually put words to the kind of dragon
-你真的能用语言来形容那种龙吗
1286
00:55:19,323 --> 00:55:20,584
that you're fighting?
你在战斗？

1287
00:55:20,584 --> 00:55:22,470
Is it communism?
是共产主义吗？

1288
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:24,240
- It's the spirit of Cain.
-这是该隐的精神

1289
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:25,073
Yeah.
是的

1290
00:55:26,430 --> 00:55:27,753
- [Lex] Can you elaborate?
-[·莱克斯]你能详细说明一下吗？

1291
00:55:28,740 --> 00:55:30,693
- Well. - What the spirit of Cain is?
-嗯 -该隐的精神是什么？

1292
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,210
- So after Adam and Eve are thrown out of paradise
-所以在亚当和夏娃被赶出天堂之后

1293
00:55:36,210 --> 00:55:37,800
for becoming self-conscious
因为变得有自我意识

1294
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,200
or when they become self-conscious,
或者当他们变得有自我意识时

1295
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:41,763
they're destined to work.
他们注定要工作

1296
00:55:42,660 --> 00:55:44,610
And the reason for that as far as I can tell
据我所知 原因是

1297
00:55:44,610 --> 00:55:47,490
is that to become self-conscious
变得有自我意识
1298
00:55:47,490 --> 00:55:49,530
is to become aware of the future.
是意识到未来

1299
00:55:49,530 --> 00:55:51,150
It's to become aware of death.
是意识到死亡

1300
00:55:51,150 --> 00:55:53,430
That certainly happens in the Adam and Eve story.
这在亚当和夏娃的故事中肯定发生过

1301
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:56,040
To have the scales fall from your eyes.
让天平从你的眼睛上掉下来

1302
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,500
And then the consequence of that is
这样做的结果是

1303
00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:00,510
that you now have to labor
你现在必须劳动

1304
00:56:00,510 --> 00:56:03,540
to prevent the catastrophes of the future.
以防止未来的灾难

1305
00:56:03,540 --> 00:56:06,450
That's work. Work is sacrifice.
这就是工作 工作就是牺牲

1306
00:56:06,450 --> 00:56:09,000
Sacrifice of the present to the future.
为了未来牺牲现在

1307
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,240
It's delay of gratification. It's maturity.
这是延迟满足 这是成熟

1308
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,240
It's sacrificed to something as well
这也是为了某件事而牺牲

1309
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:17,520
and in the spirit of something.
本着某种精神

1310
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,870
Okay. So now Adam and Eve have two children.
好的 现在亚当和夏娃有了两个孩子

1311
00:56:21,870 --> 00:56:22,770
Cain and Abel.
该隐和亚伯

1312
00:56:22,770 --> 00:56:25,770
So those are the first two people in history
这是历史上最早的两个人

1313
00:56:25,770 --> 00:56:28,170
because the Garden of Eden doesn't count.
因为伊甸园不算

1314
00:56:28,170 --> 00:56:30,120
And they're the first two people who are born
他们是头两个出生的人

1315
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,700
rather than created so they're the first two people.
而不是被创造的 所以他们是头两个人

1316
00:56:32,700 --> 00:56:35,280
And that's a hell of a story because it's a story
这是一个地狱般的故事 因为这是一个故事

1317
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,820
of fratricidal murder that degenerates into genocide,
自相残杀的谋杀堕落成种族灭绝

1318
00:56:38,820 --> 00:56:40,680
flood and tyranny.
洪水和暴政

1319
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:45,660
So that's fun for the opening salvo of the story let's say.
所以这对故事的开头齐射来说很有趣

1320
00:56:45,660 --> 00:56:48,720
And Abel and Cain both make sacrifices.
亚伯和该隐都做出了牺牲

1321
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:52,320
And for some reason Abel sacrifices, please God,
出于某种原因 亚伯牺牲了 请上帝

1322
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,300
it's not exactly clear why.
不太清楚为什么

1323
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:56,160
And Cains don't.
该隐没有

1324
00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:00,480
Now there's an implication in the text
现在课文中有一个暗示

1325
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,040
that it's because Cain's sacrifices are second rate.
因为该隐的牺牲是二流的

1326
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,950
God says that Abel brings the finest
上帝说亚伯带来了最好的

1327
00:57:07,950 --> 00:57:09,660
to the sacrificial altar.
祭坛

1328
00:57:09,660 --> 00:57:11,340
He doesn't say that about Cain.
他没有这么说该隐

1329
00:57:11,340 --> 00:57:13,710
So you could imagine that Cain is sacrificing away,
所以你可以想象该隐正在牺牲

1330
00:57:13,710 --> 00:57:16,410
but he's holding something in reserve.
但他保留了一些东西

1331
00:57:16,410 --> 00:57:19,830
He's not all in, he's not bringing his best to the table.
他没有全力以赴 他没有全力以赴

1332
00:57:19,830 --> 00:57:22,140
He's not offering his best to God.
他没有把他最好的奉献给上帝

1333
00:57:22,140 --> 00:57:25,650
And so Abel thrives like mad.
所以亚伯像疯了一样茁壮成长

1334
00:57:25,650 --> 00:57:26,700
And everyone loves him.
每个人都爱他

1335
00:57:26,700 --> 00:57:28,710
And he gets exactly what he needs and wants
他得到了他所需要和想要的

1336
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:30,960
exactly when he needs and wants it.
就在他需要和想要的时候

1337
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:32,850
He's favored of God.
他受到上帝的青睐

1338
00:57:32,850 --> 00:57:36,180
And Cain is bearing this terrible burden forward
该隐承担着这个可怕的负担

1339
00:57:36,180 --> 00:57:40,290
and working and his sacrifices are rejected.
工作和他的牺牲被拒绝了

1340
00:57:40,290 --> 00:57:45,093
So he gets resentful, really resentful,
所以他变得怨恨 非常怨恨

1341
00:57:46,860 --> 00:57:51,390
resentful enough to call God out and say something like
怨恨到足以召唤上帝 说类似的话

1342
00:57:51,390 --> 00:57:54,693
this is quite the creation you've got going here.
这就是你在这里创造的

1343
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,300
I'm breaking myself in half
我把自己分成两半

1344
00:57:57,300 --> 00:58:00,180
and nothing good's coming my way.
没有什么好东西向我走来
1345
00:58:00,180 --> 00:58:01,530
What the hell's up with that?
这到底是怎么回事？

1346
00:58:01,530 --> 00:58:04,890
And then there's Abel, the sun's shining on him every day.
还有亚伯 阳光每天都照耀着他

1347
00:58:04,890 --> 00:58:05,910
How dare you?
你怎么敢？

1348
00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:10,230
It's like, okay, but this is God that Cain's talking to you.
就像 好吧 但这是该隐在和你说话的上帝

1349
00:58:10,230 --> 00:58:14,610
And so God says what Cain least wants to hear,
所以上帝说了该隐最不想听到的话

1350
00:58:14,610 --> 00:58:17,100
which is what God usually says to people.
这是上帝通常对人们说的

1351
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:20,651
He says, "Look to your own devices.
他说 “看看你自己的设备

1352
00:58:20,651 --> 00:58:24,180
You're not making the sacrifices you should.
你没有做出你应该做出的牺牲

1353
00:58:24,180 --> 00:58:25,410
And you know it."
你知道的 ”

1354
00:58:25,410 --> 00:58:27,780
And then he says something even worse.
然后他说了一些更糟糕的话

1355
00:58:27,780 --> 00:58:31,860
He says, "Sin crouches at your door,
他说 “罪恶蹲在你家门口

1356
00:58:31,860 --> 00:58:34,653
like a sexually aroused predatory animal.
就像一个性兴奋的掠夺动物
1357
00:58:35,610 --> 00:58:39,420
And you've invited it in to have your way,
你邀请它进入你的方式

1358
00:58:39,420 --> 00:58:41,580
to have its way with you."
和你在一起 ”

1359
00:58:41,580 --> 00:58:42,930
And so he basically says,
所以他基本上说

1360
00:58:42,930 --> 00:58:47,580
you have allowed your resentment to preoccupy yourself
你让你的怨恨占据了你自己

1361
00:58:47,580 --> 00:58:49,410
and now you're brooding upon it
现在你在沉思它

1362
00:58:49,410 --> 00:58:51,930
and generating something creative, new,
创造一些创造性的 新的

1363
00:58:51,930 --> 00:58:55,143
and awful possessed by the spirit of resentment.
被怨恨的精神所控制的可怕的东西

1364
00:58:56,250 --> 00:58:59,460
And that's why you're in the miserable state you're in.
这就是为什么你处于悲惨的状态

1365
00:58:59,460 --> 00:59:03,030
So then Cain leaves, his countenance falls,
然后该隐离开了 他的表情下降了

1366
00:59:03,030 --> 00:59:04,950
as you might expect, and Cain leaves.
正如你所料 该隐离开了

1367
00:59:04,950 --> 00:59:07,777
And he's so incensed by this because God has said,
他对此非常愤怒 因为上帝说

1368
00:59:07,777 --> 00:59:11,670
"Look, your problems are of your own making.
“听着 你的问题是你自己造成的

1369
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:13,433
And not only that you invited them in
不仅是你邀请他们进来的

1370
00:59:13,433 --> 00:59:16,470
and not only that you engaged in this creatively
不仅是你创造性地参与了这件事

1371
00:59:16,470 --> 00:59:18,720
and not only that you're blaming it on me
不仅是你把它归咎于我

1372
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,180
and not only that that's making you jealous of Abel
不仅如此 这让你嫉妒亚伯

1373
00:59:21,180 --> 00:59:23,460
who's your actual idol and goal."
他是你真正的偶像和目标 ”

1374
00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:27,633
And Cain instead of changing, kills Abel.
该隐没有改变 而是杀了亚伯

1375
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:29,460
Right?
对吗？

1376
00:59:29,460 --> 00:59:31,920
And then Cain's descendants are the first people
然后该隐的后代是第一批人

1377
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,233
who make weapons of war.
制造战争武器的人

1378
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,300
And so that's, okay, you wanna know what I think?
所以 好吧 你想知道我在想什么吗？

1379
00:59:39,300 --> 00:59:41,553
That's the eternal story of mankind.
这是人类永恒的故事

1380
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,460
And it's playing out right now,
它正在上演

1381
00:59:44,460 --> 00:59:46,980
except at a thousand times the rate.
除了以一千倍的速度

1382
00:59:46,980 --> 00:59:50,103
- Can I present to you a difficult truth?
-我能向你展示一个艰难的事实吗？

1383
00:59:51,210 --> 00:59:56,190
Perhaps not a truth, but a thought I have
也许不是真相 而是我的一个想法

1384
00:59:56,190 --> 00:59:59,520
that it is not always easy to know
知道并不总是容易的

1385
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,860
which among us are the Cain.
我们中的哪一个是该隐

1386
01:00:01,860 --> 01:00:05,673
- That's for sure. - And resentment,
-那是肯定的 -还有怨恨

1387
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:11,550
it is possible to imagine you as the person
可以想象你是那个人

1388
01:00:11,550 --> 01:00:16,550
who has a resentment towards a particular worldview
对特定的世界观有怨恨的人

1389
01:00:17,010 --> 01:00:19,050
that you really worry about.
你真正担心的

1390
01:00:19,050 --> 01:00:21,720
- Yeah, well, I talked to a good friend of mine
-是的 嗯 我和我的一个好朋友谈过了

1391
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,670
last week about that publicly.
上周公开谈论过这个

1392
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:24,510
We'll release it.
我们会发布它

1393
01:00:24,510 --> 01:00:26,190
'Cause I said, well,
因为我说 嗯

1394
01:00:26,190 --> 01:00:29,130
do I have a particular animus against the left?
我对左派有特别的敌意吗？

1395
01:00:29,130 --> 01:00:32,460
Let's say. It's like, well probably.
比方说 就像 嗯 可能

1396
01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:33,450
Okay. Why?
好吧 为什么？

1397
01:00:33,450 --> 01:00:38,450
Well, first of all, I'm a university professor.
嗯 首先 我是一名大学教授

1398
01:00:38,580 --> 01:00:41,910
It's not like the universities are threatened by the right.
大学不会受到右翼的威胁

1399
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:45,180
They're threatened by the left 100%.
他们 100%受到左派的威胁

1400
01:00:45,180 --> 01:00:47,040
And they're not just threatened a little bit.
他们不仅仅受到一点点威胁

1401
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,690
They're threatened a lot.
他们受到了很大的威胁

1402
01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:51,300
And that threat made it impossible for me to continue
这种威胁让我无法继续下去

1403
01:00:51,300 --> 01:00:53,130
in my profession the way I was.
在我的职业中 就像我以前一样
1404
01:00:53,130 --> 01:00:55,590
And it cost me my clinical practice too.
这也让我失去了临床实践

1405
01:00:55,590 --> 01:00:58,800
And that's not over yet because I have 10 lawsuits
这还没有结束 因为我有 10 起诉讼

1406
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,899
against me out right now from the College of Psychologists,
现在心理学家学院反对我

1407
01:01:01,899 --> 01:01:04,882
because they've allowed anyone to complain about me
因为他们允许任何人抱怨我

1408
01:01:04,882 --> 01:01:07,650
anywhere in the world for any reason,
在世界任何地方 出于任何原因

1409
01:01:07,650 --> 01:01:11,130
and have the choice to follow that up with an investigation,
并有权选择跟进调查

1410
01:01:11,130 --> 01:01:14,373
which is a punishment in and of itself and are doing so.
这本身就是一种惩罚 并且正在这样做

1411
01:01:15,300 --> 01:01:17,730
And then I've been tortured nearly to death
然后我几乎被折磨致死

1412
01:01:17,730 --> 01:01:21,540
multiple times by bad actors on the left.
多次被左翼的坏演员折磨

1413
01:01:21,540 --> 01:01:25,410
Now I've had my fair share of radical right wingers
现在我有相当一部分激进的右翼分子

1414
01:01:25,410 --> 01:01:27,450
being unhappy with what I've said,
对我所说的话不满意

1415
01:01:27,450 --> 01:01:32,070
but personally it's been the left the whole time.
但就我个人而言 一直是左翼
1416
01:01:32,070 --> 01:01:33,870
Not only me, but my family,
不仅是我 还有我的家人

1417
01:01:33,870 --> 01:01:36,420
put my family at risk in a big way.
让我的家人处于巨大的风险之中

1418
01:01:36,420 --> 01:01:39,480
And constantly, like not once or twice,
而且经常 不是一次或两次

1419
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,200
'cause many people get canceled once or twice,
因为很多人被取消了一两次

1420
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,680
but I've been canceled like 40 times.
但我已经被取消了 40 次了

1421
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,680
And I know like 200 people now who've been canceled
我知道现在大概有 200 个人被取消了

1422
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:53,190
and I can tell you without doubt
我可以毫无疑问地告诉你

1423
01:01:53,190 --> 01:01:56,190
that it is one of the worst experiences of their life
这是他们一生中最糟糕的经历之一

1424
01:01:56,190 --> 01:01:58,950
and that's if it only happens once.
如果它只发生一次

1425
01:01:58,950 --> 01:02:00,480
And so,
所以

1426
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,480
and then I also know that the communists
然后我也知道共产主义者

1427
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:07,110
killed 100 million people in the 20th century,
在 20 世纪杀了 1 亿人

1428
01:02:07,110 --> 01:02:10,860
that the intellectuals excused them for it nonstop
知识分子不停地为他们开脱

1429
01:02:10,860 --> 01:02:14,610
and still haven't quit, that almost no one knows about it.
仍然没有放弃 几乎没有人知道这件事

1430
01:02:14,610 --> 01:02:17,280
And that the specter of resentful Marxism
怨恨的马克思主义的幽灵

1431
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,050
is back in full force.
又全面回来了

1432
01:02:19,050 --> 01:02:21,862
And so do I have a bit of an animus against that?
所以我对此有一点敌意吗？

1433
01:02:21,862 --> 01:02:22,980
Yes.
是的

1434
01:02:22,980 --> 01:02:24,423
Does it go too far?
它走得太远了吗？

1435
01:02:26,430 --> 01:02:27,420
I don't know.
我不知道

1436
01:02:27,420 --> 01:02:28,800
I'm trying to figure that out.
我正在努力弄清楚

1437
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:33,600
- The story you just told it seems nearly impossible
-你刚才讲的故事似乎几乎不可能

1438
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,910
for you, an intellectual powerhouse,
对你来说 一个知识分子发电站

1439
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:38,520
not to have a tremendous amount of resentment.
没有大量的怨恨

1440
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,220
- Well. - So let me challenge you.
-嗯 -所以让我挑战你

1441
01:02:41,220 --> 01:02:42,630
- Yeah. Go right ahead.
-是的 请便

1442
01:02:42,630 --> 01:02:45,303
- Let me challenge you. Can you steel man?
-让我挑战你 你能钢铁侠吗？

1443
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,680
The case that the prime minister of this country,
这个国家的总理

1444
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,560
Trudeau, wants the best for this country
特鲁多 希望为这个国家做最好的事情

1445
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,890
and actually might do good things for this country.
实际上可能会为这个国家做好事

1446
01:02:58,890 --> 01:03:00,480
As an intellectual challenge.
作为一个智力挑战

1447
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:01,313
- Sure.
-当然

1448
01:03:02,250 --> 01:03:04,443
He seems to get along well with his wife.
他似乎和他的妻子相处得很好

1449
01:03:05,460 --> 01:03:07,080
He has some kids.
他有一些孩子

1450
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:08,730
There's no sexual scandals
没有性丑闻

1451
01:03:08,730 --> 01:03:11,790
and he's in a position where that could easily be the case.
他处于一个很容易成为现实的位置

1452
01:03:11,790 --> 01:03:13,470
He seems to have done some good things
他似乎做了一些好事

1453
01:03:13,470 --> 01:03:15,750
on the oceanic management front.
在海洋管理方面

1454
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:18,090
He's put a fair bit of Canada's oceans
他把相当一部分加拿大海洋

1455
01:03:18,090 --> 01:03:19,500
into marine protected areas,
投入海洋保护区

1456
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:23,310
and that might be his most fundamental legacy if it's real.
如果这是真的 这可能是他最基本的遗产

1457
01:03:23,310 --> 01:03:24,900
I've been trying to get information about
我一直在努力获取关于

1458
01:03:24,900 --> 01:03:27,390
the actual reality of the protection.
保护的实际情况

1459
01:03:27,390 --> 01:03:29,130
And I haven't been able to do that,
我没能做到这一点

1460
01:03:29,130 --> 01:03:30,210
but that's a good thing.
但这是件好事

1461
01:03:30,210 --> 01:03:32,160
- So sorry, the family thing is
-很抱歉 家庭的事情是

1462
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,140
there's some aspect- - Speaks to his character.
有一些方面——与他的性格有关
1463
01:03:34,140 --> 01:03:35,808
- His character, there is some aspect to him
-他的性格 对他来说有一些方面

1464
01:03:35,808 --> 01:03:37,746
that makes him a good man
这使他成为一个好人

1465
01:03:37,746 --> 01:03:39,120
in that sense. - Well, I mean,
从这个意义上说 -嗯 我是说

1466
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:40,770
there's the evidence there, you know?
有证据 你知道吗？

1467
01:03:40,770 --> 01:03:43,470
I mean he's not a Jeffrey Epstein profligate
我是说他不是杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的挥霍者

1468
01:03:43,470 --> 01:03:45,420
on the sexual front, so that's something.
在性方面 所以这很重要

1469
01:03:45,420 --> 01:03:47,370
And his wife,
还有他的妻子

1470
01:03:47,370 --> 01:03:49,980
they seem to have a real marriage and he has kids.
他们似乎有一段真正的婚姻 他有孩子

1471
01:03:49,980 --> 01:03:51,930
So good for him.
对他来说太好了

1472
01:03:51,930 --> 01:03:53,910
- [Lex] That's a good start by the way for a leader.
-[·莱克斯]顺便说一句 这对一个领导者来说是个好的开始

1473
01:03:53,910 --> 01:03:55,800
- Yeah. Right. - To be a good man.
-是的 没错 -做一个好人

1474
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,260
- Well then I also thought, okay, well,
-好吧 然后我还想 好吧 好吧

1475
01:03:58,260 --> 01:04:01,920
after the liberals had brought in a Harvard intellectual
在自由主义者引进了一位哈佛知识分子之后

1476
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,350
who was a Canadian to be their last leader,
他是加拿大人 是他们最后一位领导人

1477
01:04:04,350 --> 01:04:07,800
he didn't work out and then they're flailing a boat
他没有锻炼身体 然后他们挥舞着一艘船

1478
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,480
for a leader and the liberals in Canada
对于一个领导人和加拿大的自由主义者来说

1479
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:11,950
are pretty good at maintaining
非常擅长维护

1480
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:14,940
power and leadership
权力和领导力

1481
01:04:14,940 --> 01:04:16,710
and have been the dominant governing party
并且一直是占主导地位的执政党

1482
01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:18,630
in Canada for a long time.
在加拿大很长一段时间

1483
01:04:18,630 --> 01:04:21,937
And so they went to Justin and said,
所以他们去找贾斯汀说

1484
01:04:21,937 --> 01:04:24,720
"Well, you know, it's you or a conservative."
“嗯 你知道 是你或者保守派 ”

1485
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,800
And you can imagine that's not a positive specter
你可以想象这不是一个积极的幽灵

1486
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,610
for someone who's on the left or even a liberal.
对于左翼甚至自由主义者来说

1487
01:04:32,610 --> 01:04:35,070
And Trudeau is quite a bit on the left.
特鲁多相当偏左

1488
01:04:35,070 --> 01:04:37,380
And they said," We need you to run."
他们说 “我们需要你参选 ”

1489
01:04:37,380 --> 01:04:38,340
And then I thought, okay,
然后我想 好吧

1490
01:04:38,340 --> 01:04:41,760
well the answer to that should have been no
答案应该是不

1491
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,840
because the Trudeau, Justin has no training for this,
因为特鲁多 贾斯汀没有这方面的训练

1492
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:46,673
no experience.
没有经验

1493
01:04:46,673 --> 01:04:47,760
He's not.
他不是

1494
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,889
He's a part-time drama teacher fundamentally.
他基本上是一名兼职戏剧老师

1495
01:04:49,889 --> 01:04:51,330
He hadn't run a business.
他没有经营过企业

1496
01:04:51,330 --> 01:04:54,210
He just didn't know enough to be prime minister.
他只是知道的不够多 不足以成为首相

1497
01:04:54,210 --> 01:04:56,580
But then I'm trying to put myself in his position.
但后来我试图把自己放在他的位置上

1498
01:04:56,580 --> 01:04:58,440
So it's like, okay, I don't know enough,
所以就像 好吧 我知道的不够多

1499
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,890
but I'm young and we don't want the conservatives.
但是我很年轻 我们不想要保守派

1500
01:05:01,890 --> 01:05:03,540
And they had had a run, a 10 year run
他们已经竞选了 10 年

1501
01:05:03,540 --> 01:05:04,934
so maybe it was time for new government.
所以也许是时候建立新政府了

1502
01:05:04,934 --> 01:05:08,550
Maybe I could grow into this man.
也许我可以成长为这个人

1503
01:05:08,550 --> 01:05:10,950
Maybe I could surround myself with good people
也许我可以和好人在一起

1504
01:05:10,950 --> 01:05:14,200
and I could learn, humbly, and I could become
我可以谦卑地学习 我可以成为

1505
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:17,970
the person I'm now pretending to be,
我现在假装的那个人

1506
01:05:17,970 --> 01:05:20,640
which we all have to do as we move forward, right?
我们都必须这样做 对吗？

1507
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,460
And so then I thought, okay,
然后我想 好吧

1508
01:05:23,460 --> 01:05:24,497
I think you made a mistake there
我认为你犯了一个错误

1509
01:05:24,497 --> 01:05:28,110
'cause you ran only on your father's name
因为你只以你父亲的名义参选
1510
01:05:28,110 --> 01:05:29,670
and you didn't have the background,
你没有背景

1511
01:05:29,670 --> 01:05:32,790
but let's give the devil his due and say that's no problem.
但是让我们给他应得的 说这没问题

1512
01:05:32,790 --> 01:05:35,010
Okay. So now what do you do?
好吧 那么现在你该怎么办？

1513
01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:36,510
Well, you get elected.
嗯 你当选了

1514
01:05:36,510 --> 01:05:41,510
And your first act is to make the cabinet 50% women
你的第一个行动是让内阁中有 50%的女性

1515
01:05:42,510 --> 01:05:44,360
despite the fact that only 25%
尽管事实上只有 25%

1516
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,100
of the elected members are female.
当选成员是女性

1517
01:05:47,100 --> 01:05:49,600
It's like, okay, you just halved your talent pool.
就像 好吧 你刚刚把你的人才库减半了

1518
01:05:50,580 --> 01:05:52,890
That was a really bad move for your first move.
这对你的第一步来说是一个非常糟糕的举动

1519
01:05:52,890 --> 01:05:55,080
- Can I ask you about that? - Yeah.
-我能问你吗？-是的

1520
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,400
- Do you think,
-你认为

1521
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,860
where does that move come from?
这一举动是从哪里来的？
1522
01:05:58,860 --> 01:06:03,630
Deep somewhere in the heart or is it trying to listen
在内心深处的某个地方 或者它试图倾听

1523
01:06:03,630 --> 01:06:06,780
to the social forces of the moment
当下的社会力量

1524
01:06:06,780 --> 01:06:09,590
and try to ride those ways towards
并尝试以这些方式走向

1525
01:06:09,590 --> 01:06:10,786
maybe greater popularity. - You don't make a decision
也许更受欢迎 -你不会做出决定

1526
01:06:10,786 --> 01:06:14,010
like that after thinking it through.
想清楚后就这样

1527
01:06:14,010 --> 01:06:16,860
It's like, no, you just halved your talent pool
就像 不 你刚刚把你的人才库减半了

1528
01:06:16,860 --> 01:06:18,150
for cabinet positions.
为了内阁职位

1529
01:06:18,150 --> 01:06:20,853
That's what you did. There's enough cabinet positions.
这就是你所做的 有足够的内阁职位

1530
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,300
You know, you could argue that each of them met threshold,
你知道 你可以说他们每个人都达到了门槛

1531
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:26,100
it's like there's a big difference
好像有很大的区别

1532
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:27,960
between threshold and excellent.
门槛和优秀之间

1533
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,930
- So you don't think that came from a place of compassion?
-所以你不认为这来自同情？

1534
01:06:30,930 --> 01:06:32,220
- I don't care if it did.
-我不在乎它是否是

1535
01:06:32,220 --> 01:06:34,200
I don't regard compassion as a virtue.
我不认为同情是一种美德

1536
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,420
Compassion is a reflex, not a virtue.
同情是一种反射 不是一种美德

1537
01:06:36,420 --> 01:06:38,250
- You don't think- - Judicious compassion
-你不认为——明智的同情

1538
01:06:38,250 --> 01:06:39,330
is a virtue.
是一种美德

1539
01:06:39,330 --> 01:06:40,860
- Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute.
-等等 等一下 等一下

1540
01:06:40,860 --> 01:06:44,670
Compassion can come deep from the human heart
同情可以来自人类的内心深处

1541
01:06:44,670 --> 01:06:46,200
and the human mind I think.
我认为是人类的头脑

1542
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,450
Are we talking about the same kind of compassion?
我们在谈论同样的同情吗？

1543
01:06:48,450 --> 01:06:49,500
- Yes. - Trying to understand
-是的 -试图理解

1544
01:06:49,500 --> 01:06:51,210
the suffering- - Treating adults like infants
受苦的人——像对待婴儿一样对待成年人

1545
01:06:51,210 --> 01:06:53,040
is not virtuous.
是不道德的

1546
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:53,883
- I see.
-我明白了

1547
01:06:55,110 --> 01:06:58,110
Well, compassion isn't treating adult like infants,
嗯 同情不是像对待婴儿一样对待成年人

1548
01:06:58,110 --> 01:06:59,293
I mean, those are just terms.
我是说 这些只是术语

1549
01:06:59,293 --> 01:07:01,110
- Are you sure? - Okay.
-你确定吗？-好吧

1550
01:07:01,110 --> 01:07:03,243
Whatever the term is, love is
不管是什么术语 爱是

1551
01:07:03,243 --> 01:07:05,580
maybe the better word. - Eatable compassion is.
也许更好的词 -可食的同情是

1552
01:07:05,580 --> 01:07:08,580
- I mean, I suppose I'm speaking to love.
-我是说 我想我在和爱说话

1553
01:07:08,580 --> 01:07:11,241
You don't think those ideas came from concern-
你不认为这些想法来自于关心——

1554
01:07:11,241 --> 01:07:12,663
- Love is compassion.
-爱就是同情

1555
01:07:14,910 --> 01:07:16,080
- You don't think love is- - Love is a blend
-你不认为爱是——爱是一种混合物

1556
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,990
of compassion and encouragement and truth.
同情、鼓励和真理
1557
01:07:18,990 --> 01:07:20,616
Love is complicated, man.
爱是复杂的 伙计

1558
01:07:20,616 --> 01:07:22,200
- [Lex] Yeah, it has a lot of good things in it, yeah.
-[·莱克斯]是的 它有很多好东西 是的

1559
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:23,190
- If I love you,
-如果我爱你

1560
01:07:23,190 --> 01:07:25,740
is it compassion or encouragement you want from me?
你想从我这里得到同情还是鼓励？

1561
01:07:26,670 --> 01:07:27,750
- Yeah. The dance.
-是的 舞蹈

1562
01:07:27,750 --> 01:07:29,814
Love is definitely a dance of two humans
爱绝对是两个人的舞蹈

1563
01:07:29,814 --> 01:07:32,253
ultimately that leads to the growth of both, yes.
最终导致两个人的成长 是的

1564
01:07:32,253 --> 01:07:33,086
- Well, that's the thing.
-嗯 这就是问题所在

1565
01:07:33,086 --> 01:07:34,773
The growth element is crucial.
成长元素至关重要

1566
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,610
Because the growth element, to foster the growth element
因为成长元素 培养成长元素

1567
01:07:38,610 --> 01:07:40,113
that requires judgment.
这需要判断

1568
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:42,460
Compassion and judgment
同情和判断
1569
01:07:44,100 --> 01:07:45,900
have been conceptualized this way forever.
永远被这样概念化

1570
01:07:45,900 --> 01:07:48,780
Two hands of God, mercy and justice.
上帝的双手 仁慈和正义

1571
01:07:48,780 --> 01:07:50,910
They have to operate in tandem. Right?
它们必须协同运作 对吗？

1572
01:07:50,910 --> 01:07:51,820
And mercy is
仁慈是

1573
01:07:53,820 --> 01:07:57,123
flawed as you are, you're acceptable.
尽管你有缺陷 但你是可以接受的

1574
01:07:58,050 --> 01:07:59,550
It's like, well, do you want that?
就像 嗯 你想要吗？

1575
01:07:59,550 --> 01:08:02,070
Do you want your flaws to be acceptable?
你希望你的缺点被接受吗？

1576
01:08:02,070 --> 01:08:03,450
And the answer that is no.
答案是否定的

1577
01:08:03,450 --> 01:08:05,280
So it's like, well, that's where the judgment comes in.
所以就像 嗯 这就是判断的来源

1578
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,500
It's like, but you could be better.
就像 但你可以做得更好

1579
01:08:07,500 --> 01:08:09,330
You could be more than you are.
你可以做得比现在更多

1580
01:08:09,330 --> 01:08:11,040
And that's the maternal and the paternal
这就是母性和父性

1581
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:12,900
in some fundamental sense.
在某种基本意义上

1582
01:08:12,900 --> 01:08:15,310
And there has to be a active
必须积极

1583
01:08:17,430 --> 01:08:20,340
exchange of information between those two polls.
这两个民意测验之间的信息交流

1584
01:08:20,340 --> 01:08:23,310
So even if Trudeau was motivated by compassion
所以即使特鲁多是出于同情

1585
01:08:23,310 --> 01:08:26,160
and it's like, yeah, just how loving are you?
就像 是的 你有多爱？

1586
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:27,660
First of all.
首先

1587
01:08:27,660 --> 01:08:29,100
No, it was a really bad decision.
不 这是一个非常糟糕的决定

1588
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:32,970
And he's expressed contempt for monetary policy.
他表达了对货币政策的蔑视

1589
01:08:32,970 --> 01:08:34,590
I'm not interested in monetary policy.
我对货币政策不感兴趣

1590
01:08:34,590 --> 01:08:39,590
It's like, okay, but you're a prime minister.
就像 好吧 但你是总理

1591
01:08:39,667 --> 01:08:41,850
And he's expressed admiration
他表达了钦佩

1592
01:08:41,850 --> 01:08:43,950
for the Chinese Communist Party
对中国共产党

1593
01:08:43,950 --> 01:08:46,230
because they can be very efficient
因为他们可以非常高效

1594
01:08:46,230 --> 01:08:48,180
in their pursuit of environmental goals.
在他们追求环境目标的过程中

1595
01:08:48,180 --> 01:08:51,663
It's like, oh yeah, efficiency, ay?
就像 哦 是的 效率 对吧？

1596
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,193
The efficiency of the tyranny in the service of your terror.
暴政为你的恐怖服务的效率

1597
01:08:57,887 --> 01:08:59,280
And I've watched him repeatedly
我反复观察他

1598
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:00,750
and I've listened to him a lot
我听了他很多

1599
01:09:00,750 --> 01:09:03,090
and I've tried to do that clinically
我试着在临床上这样做

1600
01:09:03,090 --> 01:09:05,790
and with some degree of dispassion.
带着一定程度的冷静

1601
01:09:05,790 --> 01:09:09,840
And that's hard too because his father Pierre
这也很难 因为他的父亲皮埃尔

1602
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:14,840
devastated the West in 1982 with the national energy policy.
1982 年 国家能源政策摧毁了西方

1603
01:09:15,060 --> 01:09:18,180
And Trudeau is doing exactly the same thing again.
特鲁多又在做同样的事情

1604
01:09:18,180 --> 01:09:20,250
And so as a Westerner as well,
所以作为一个西方人

1605
01:09:20,250 --> 01:09:24,690
I have an inbuilt animus and one that's well deserved
我有一种内在的敌意 这是当之无愧的

1606
01:09:24,690 --> 01:09:29,400
because central Canada, especially the glittery literary
因为加拿大中部 尤其是闪闪发光的文学

1607
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:34,400
elite types in the Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto triangle
渥太华、蒙特利尔、多伦多三角的精英

1608
01:09:34,530 --> 01:09:39,530
have exploited the West and expressed contempt for the West
剥削了西方 并表达了对西方的蔑视

1609
01:09:40,530 --> 01:09:42,960
far too much for far too long.
太久太久了

1610
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,390
And that's accelerating at the moment, for example,
例如 这种情况目前正在加速

1611
01:09:45,390 --> 01:09:48,990
with Trudeau's recent attack on the Canadian farmers.
特鲁多最近对加拿大农民的攻击

1612
01:09:48,990 --> 01:09:52,500
He's an enemy of the oil and gas industry,
他是石油和天然气行业的敌人

1613
01:09:52,500 --> 01:09:54,870
which is an utter and absolute bloody catastrophe.
这是一场彻头彻尾的血腥灾难

1614
01:09:54,870 --> 01:09:56,760
And look what's happened in Europe,
看看欧洲发生了什么

1615
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:58,740
at least in partial consequence.
至少在部分后果上
1616
01:09:58,740 --> 01:10:01,050
And he's no friend to the farmers.
他不是农民的朋友

1617
01:10:01,050 --> 01:10:04,200
So I've tried to steel man him. You know?
所以我试着让他坚强起来 你知道吗？

1618
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,660
I try to put myself in the position of the people
我试着把自己放在人民的位置上

1619
01:10:06,660 --> 01:10:08,400
that I'm criticizing.
我在批评

1620
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:09,993
I think he's a narcissist.
我认为他是个自恋者

1621
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,470
- Do you think there's a degree to which power changed him?
-你认为权力在一定程度上改变了他吗？

1622
01:10:15,330 --> 01:10:17,430
- If you're not suited for the position,
-如果你不适合这个职位

1623
01:10:17,430 --> 01:10:18,840
if you're not the man for the position,
如果你不是这个职位的合适人选

1624
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,780
you can be absolutely 100% sure
你可以百分之百确定

1625
01:10:21,780 --> 01:10:23,100
that the power will corrupt you.
权力会腐蚀你

1626
01:10:23,100 --> 01:10:24,153
How could it not?
怎么可能不呢？

1627
01:10:24,990 --> 01:10:26,400
I mean, at the least,
我是说 至少
1628
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,040
if you don't have the chops for the job,
如果你没有这份工作的能力

1629
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:31,530
you have to devalue the job to the point
你必须贬低这份工作的价值

1630
01:10:31,530 --> 01:10:34,083
where you can feel comfortable inhabiting it.
你可以舒服地生活在其中

1631
01:10:35,490 --> 01:10:37,617
So yes, I think that it's corrupted him
所以是的 我认为这腐蚀了他

1632
01:10:37,617 --> 01:10:40,020
and I mean, look at him, doubling down.
我是说 看看他 加倍努力

1633
01:10:40,020 --> 01:10:43,440
We wear masks in flights into Canada.
我们在飞往加拿大的航班上戴着口罩

1634
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:46,350
We have to fill out an ArriveCAN bureaucratic form
我们必须填写 ArriveCAN 的官僚表格

1635
01:10:46,350 --> 01:10:49,230
on our phones because a passport isn't good enough.
在我们的手机上 因为护照不够好

1636
01:10:49,230 --> 01:10:51,434
We can't get a passport.
我们拿不到护照

1637
01:10:51,434 --> 01:10:52,920
What if you're 85
如果你 85 岁了

1638
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:54,990
and you don't know how to use a smartphone?
你不知道如何使用智能手机？

1639
01:10:54,990 --> 01:10:58,020
Oh, well. Too bad for you. - Yeah.
哦 好吧 对你来说太糟糕了 -是的

1640
01:10:58,020 --> 01:11:01,170
- It's like, yes, it's corrupted him.
-就像 是的 这腐蚀了他

1641
01:11:01,170 --> 01:11:03,735
- Would you talk to him?
-你会和他谈谈吗？

1642
01:11:03,735 --> 01:11:05,787
If you were to sit down and talk with him
如果你坐下来和他谈谈

1643
01:11:05,787 --> 01:11:07,683
and he wanted to talk,
他想谈谈

1644
01:11:10,530 --> 01:11:13,470
would you, and what kind of things would you about
你会吗 你会谈论什么样的事情

1645
01:11:13,470 --> 01:11:14,850
perhaps on your podcast?
也许在你的播客上？

1646
01:11:14,850 --> 01:11:17,853
- I don't think I've ever said no to talking to anyone.
-我想我从来没有拒绝过和任何人交谈

1647
01:11:18,780 --> 01:11:20,181
So which is, you know-
所以 你知道——

1648
01:11:20,181 --> 01:11:21,150
(Lex chuckles)
（莱克斯笑）

1649
01:11:21,150 --> 01:11:24,390
- Would that be a first or would you make that conversation?
-这是第一次还是你会进行这种对话？

1650
01:11:24,390 --> 01:11:25,530
Do you believe in the power of conversation-
你相信对话的力量吗——

1651
01:11:25,530 --> 01:11:27,345
- No. I'd ask him. - In those kinds of context?
-不 我会问他 -在这种情况下？

1652
01:11:27,345 --> 01:11:30,629
- No, if he was willing to talk to me, I'd talk,
-不 如果他愿意和我说话 我会说

1653
01:11:30,629 --> 01:11:31,740
'cause I'd like to ask him,
因为我想问他

1654
01:11:31,740 --> 01:11:33,510
I have lots of things I'd like to ask him about.
我有很多事情想问他

1655
01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:36,330
I mean, I've had political types in Canada on my podcast
我是说 我的播客上有加拿大的政治类型

1656
01:11:36,330 --> 01:11:40,810
and tried to ask them questions to so I'd like to know.
并试图向他们提问 所以我想知道

1657
01:11:41,765 --> 01:11:44,430
Maybe I've got a big part of him wrong.
也许我把他的很大一部分搞错了

1658
01:11:44,430 --> 01:11:46,680
- Yes. - And I probably do.
-是的 -我可能知道

1659
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,560
But my observation is being that
但我的观察是

1660
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:53,130
every chance he had to retreat from his pharonic position,
每次他不得不放弃他的 pharonic 职位

1661
01:11:53,130 --> 01:11:55,440
let's say, he doubled down.
比方说 他加倍努力

1662
01:11:55,440 --> 01:12:00,273
And our parliament is not running for the next year.
我们的议会明年不会竞选

1663
01:12:01,860 --> 01:12:03,660
It's still Zoom in.
它仍然放大

1664
01:12:03,660 --> 01:12:07,980
It's still COVID lockdown parliament for the next year.
明年仍然是 COVID 封锁议会

1665
01:12:07,980 --> 01:12:11,910
It's already been fatally compromised
它已经受到了致命的损害

1666
01:12:11,910 --> 01:12:16,910
perhaps by the lockdowns for the last couple of years.
也许是因为过去几年的封锁

1667
01:12:16,967 --> 01:12:19,020
And this is Parliament we're talking about.
这就是我们正在谈论的议会

1668
01:12:19,020 --> 01:12:20,120
- Yeah, there's a kind
-是的 有一种

1669
01:12:22,380 --> 01:12:26,730
paralysis, fear driven paralysis that also in part,
瘫痪 恐惧驱动的瘫痪 也在某种程度上

1670
01:12:26,730 --> 01:12:28,230
some of the most brilliant people I know
我认识的一些最聪明的人

1671
01:12:28,230 --> 01:12:30,810
are lost in this paralysis.
在这种瘫痪中迷失了

1672
01:12:30,810 --> 01:12:32,370
I don't think people have assigned a word to it,
我认为人们没有给它一个词

1673
01:12:32,370 --> 01:12:35,490
but it's almost like a fear of this unknown thing
但它几乎就像是对这种未知事物的恐惧

1674
01:12:35,490 --> 01:12:36,960
that lurks in the shadows.
潜伏在阴影中
1675
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:40,800
And unfortunately, that fear is leveraged
不幸的是 这种恐惧被利用了

1676
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:45,180
by people that
被那些

1677
01:12:45,180 --> 01:12:47,130
who are in academic circles,
学术圈的人

1678
01:12:47,130 --> 01:12:48,777
who are in faculty or students and so on
教师或学生等等

1679
01:12:48,777 --> 01:12:52,560
and more administration and they start to use that fear,
更多的管理 他们开始利用这种恐惧

1680
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,290
which makes me quite uncomfortable.
这让我很不舒服

1681
01:12:55,290 --> 01:12:59,603
It does lend people in the positions of power
它确实借给了处于权力地位的人

1682
01:12:59,603 --> 01:13:02,100
who are not good at handling that power
不擅长处理这种权力的人

1683
01:13:02,100 --> 01:13:04,740
to become slowly,
变得缓慢

1684
01:13:04,740 --> 01:13:07,350
day by day, a little bit more corrupt.
一天比一天腐败

1685
01:13:07,350 --> 01:13:09,090
- I was really trying to figure out, you know,
-我真的想弄清楚 你知道

1686
01:13:09,090 --> 01:13:10,710
the last two weeks thinking this through,
在过去的两周里
1687
01:13:10,710 --> 01:13:12,093
it's like how do you know?
就像你怎么知道的？

1688
01:13:13,380 --> 01:13:14,938
Let's say someone asked me a question
假设有人问我一个问题

1689
01:13:14,938 --> 01:13:17,160
in the YouTube comment, he said, "Well,
在 YouTube 的评论中 他说 “嗯

1690
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:21,237
why can I trust your advice on the environmental front?"
为什么我可以相信你在环境方面的建议？”

1691
01:13:22,350 --> 01:13:24,693
And I thought that's a really good question.
我认为这是一个非常好的问题

1692
01:13:25,590 --> 01:13:26,790
Okay.
好吧

1693
01:13:26,790 --> 01:13:29,280
Let's see if we can figure out the principles
让我们看看我们是否能找出原则

1694
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:31,260
by which the advice would be trustworthy.
根据这些原则 建议是值得信赖的

1695
01:13:31,260 --> 01:13:34,530
Okay. How do you know it's not trustworthy?
好吧 你怎么知道它不值得信赖？

1696
01:13:34,530 --> 01:13:39,530
Well, one potential response to that
嗯 对此有一个潜在的回答

1697
01:13:39,630 --> 01:13:43,140
would be the claims are not in accordance with the facts,
这些说法与事实不符

1698
01:13:43,140 --> 01:13:44,850
but facts are tricky things
但事实是棘手的事情

1699
01:13:44,850 --> 01:13:46,410
and it depends on where you look for them.
这取决于你在哪里寻找它们

1700
01:13:46,410 --> 01:13:48,570
So that's a tough one to get right,
所以这是一个很难弄对的问题

1701
01:13:48,570 --> 01:13:52,350
because for example, Lomborg's fundamental critics argue
因为例如 隆伯格的基本批评者争论

1702
01:13:52,350 --> 01:13:55,736
about his facts, not just his interpretation of them.
关于他的事实 而不仅仅是他对事实的解释

1703
01:13:55,736 --> 01:13:58,020
So that can't be an unerring guide.
所以这不可能是一个无误的指南

1704
01:13:58,020 --> 01:14:01,800
And so I thought, well, the facts exactly doesn't work
所以我想 嗯 事实完全不起作用

1705
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,310
'cause when it's about everything, there's too many facts.
因为当它是关于一切的时候 有太多的事实

1706
01:14:05,310 --> 01:14:07,110
So then how do you determine if someone's
那么你如何确定一个人是否

1707
01:14:07,110 --> 01:14:11,460
a trustworthy guide in the face of the apocalyptic unknown?
面对世界末日的未知 一个值得信赖的向导？

1708
01:14:11,460 --> 01:14:13,410
'Cause that's really the question.
因为这才是真正的问题

1709
01:14:13,410 --> 01:14:17,433
And the answer is they're not terrified tyrants.
答案是他们不是害怕的暴君

1710
01:14:18,510 --> 01:14:20,580
I think that's the answer.
我认为这就是答案

1711
01:14:20,580 --> 01:14:23,068
Now maybe that's wrong. If someone has a better answer, hey.
也许这是错误的 如果有人有更好的答案 嘿

1712
01:14:23,068 --> 01:14:24,930
- [Lex] How do you know if they're terrified tyrant?
-[Lex]你怎么知道他们是不是被吓坏了的暴君？

1713
01:14:24,930 --> 01:14:26,670
- Because they are willing to use compulsion
-因为他们愿意使用强迫

1714
01:14:26,670 --> 01:14:29,940
on other people when they could use goodwill.
当他们可以使用善意的时候

1715
01:14:29,940 --> 01:14:33,663
Like the farmers in Canada objected, they said, "Look,
就像加拿大的农民反对的那样 他们说 “听着

1716
01:14:35,310 --> 01:14:36,720
we have every economic reason
我们有充分的经济理由

1717
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,240
to use as little fertilizer as we can
尽可能少地使用肥料

1718
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:40,830
'cause it's expensive.
因为它很贵

1719
01:14:40,830 --> 01:14:44,940
We have satellite maps of where we put the fertilizer.
我们有放置肥料的卫星地图

1720
01:14:44,940 --> 01:14:46,950
We have cut our fertilizer use
我们已经减少了肥料的使用

1721
01:14:46,950 --> 01:14:50,130
so substantially in the last 40 years you can't believe it.
在过去的 40 年里 你简直不敢相信

1722
01:14:50,130 --> 01:14:52,290
And we grow way more food.
我们种植了更多的食物

1723
01:14:52,290 --> 01:14:54,840
We're already breaking ourselves in half.
我们已经把自己分成两半了

1724
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:56,220
And if you know farmers,
如果你了解农民

1725
01:14:56,220 --> 01:14:57,990
especially the ones who still survive,
尤其是那些还活着的农民

1726
01:14:57,990 --> 01:15:00,393
you think those people don't know what they're doing.
你认为那些人不知道他们在做什么

1727
01:15:00,393 --> 01:15:04,560
It's like they're pretty damn sophisticated, man.
好像他们非常老练 伙计

1728
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,850
Like way more sophisticated than our prime minister.
比我们的总理老练得多

1729
01:15:08,850 --> 01:15:10,140
And now you tell them,
现在你告诉他们

1730
01:15:10,140 --> 01:15:11,940
no, it's a 30% reduction
不 是减少 30%

1731
01:15:11,940 --> 01:15:13,770
and we don't care how much food you're growing.
我们不在乎你种了多少食物

1732
01:15:13,770 --> 01:15:18,330
So it's not a reduction that's dependent
所以这不是取决于减少

1733
01:15:18,330 --> 01:15:21,780
on amount of food produced per unit of fertilizer used,
取决于每单位肥料的产量
1734
01:15:21,780 --> 01:15:24,720
which would be, at least you could imagine it.
至少你可以想象

1735
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:26,833
Okay, so you're producing this much food
好吧 所以你生产了这么多食物

1736
01:15:26,833 --> 01:15:30,750
and use this much fertilizer so you're hyper efficient.
使用这么多肥料 所以你效率极高

1737
01:15:30,750 --> 01:15:33,570
Maybe we take the 10% of farmers who are the least efficient
也许我们拿 10%效率最低的农民

1738
01:15:33,570 --> 01:15:36,210
in that metric and we say to them,
在这个指标中 我们对他们说

1739
01:15:36,210 --> 01:15:38,853
you have to get as efficient as the average farmer.
你必须像普通农民一样高效

1740
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:42,870
And then they say, "Well look, our situation's different.
然后他们说 “看 我们的情况不同了

1741
01:15:42,870 --> 01:15:44,700
We're in a more Northern climb.
我们在更北的攀登

1742
01:15:44,700 --> 01:15:46,210
The soil's weaker."
土壤更弱 ”

1743
01:15:46,210 --> 01:15:48,180
You obviously have to bargain with that,
你显然必须与此讨价还价

1744
01:15:48,180 --> 01:15:52,233
but at least you reward them for their productivity.
但至少你奖励他们的生产力

1745
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:56,520
Well it's like, well, Holland isn't gonna have beef.
嗯 就像 嗯 荷兰不会有牛肉
1746
01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:58,290
Well where are they gonna get it?
他们会从哪里得到它？

1747
01:15:58,290 --> 01:15:59,340
Well, you don't need it.
嗯 你不需要它

1748
01:15:59,340 --> 01:16:00,210
It's like, oh I see.
就像 哦 我明白了

1749
01:16:00,210 --> 01:16:02,610
You get to tell me what I can eat now, do you?
你现在可以告诉我我能吃什么了 是吗？

1750
01:16:02,610 --> 01:16:04,560
Really? Okay.
真的吗？好吧

1751
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:09,000
And Holland is gonna import food from where
荷兰会从哪里进口食物

1752
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,660
that's more efficient on the fertilizer front?
这在肥料方面更有效？

1753
01:16:12,660 --> 01:16:14,700
There's no one more efficient than Holland.
没有人比荷兰更有效了

1754
01:16:14,700 --> 01:16:16,560
And same with Canada.
加拿大也是如此

1755
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:20,550
And like isn't this gonna make food prices more expensive?
这不是会让食品价格更贵吗？

1756
01:16:20,550 --> 01:16:24,180
And doesn't that mean that hungry people die?
这不是意味着饥饿的人会死吗？

1757
01:16:24,180 --> 01:16:25,994
'Cause that is what it means.
因为这就是它的意思

1758
01:16:25,994 --> 01:16:28,770
- Ultimately poor people pay the price
-最终穷人会付出代价

1759
01:16:28,770 --> 01:16:30,780
of these kinds of policies.
这种政策

1760
01:16:30,780 --> 01:16:32,973
- Not known, not ultimately.
-不知道 最终不会

1761
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:36,150
Now. - Today.
现在 -今天

1762
01:16:36,150 --> 01:16:38,670
- Today, that's a crucial distinction because they say
-今天 这是一个至关重要的区别 因为他们说

1763
01:16:38,670 --> 01:16:40,743
well, ultimately the poor will benefit.
嗯 最终穷人会受益

1764
01:16:41,970 --> 01:16:43,230
Yeah. Except the dead ones.
是的 除了死去的人

1765
01:16:43,230 --> 01:16:46,320
- Yes. Today. - Today. Right?
-是的 今天 -今天 对吗？

1766
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:49,470
- It seems like the story of war too
-这似乎也是一个战争的故事

1767
01:16:49,470 --> 01:16:52,650
is a time when the poor people suffer
是穷人受苦的时候

1768
01:16:52,650 --> 01:16:55,080
from the decision made by the powerful,
因为当权者做出的决定

1769
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:57,744
the rich, the political elite. - Yeah,
富人 政治精英 -是的

1770
01:16:57,744 --> 01:16:59,374
'cause they can just leave.
因为他们可以离开

1771
01:16:59,374 --> 01:17:00,489
- Yeah.
-是的

1772
01:17:00,489 --> 01:17:03,390
Let me ask you about the war in Ukraine.
让我问你关于乌克兰战争的事

1773
01:17:03,390 --> 01:17:06,140
- Oh yeah. I got into plenty of trouble about that too.
-哦 是的 我也为此遇到了很多麻烦

1774
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:12,270
- You're just a man in a suit
-你只是一个穿着西装的人

1775
01:17:12,270 --> 01:17:16,740
talking on microphones and writing brilliant articles.
用麦克风说话 写精彩的文章

1776
01:17:16,740 --> 01:17:20,760
There's also people dying, fighting.
也有人死去 战斗

1777
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:22,650
It's their land. It's their country.
这是他们的土地 这是他们的国家

1778
01:17:22,650 --> 01:17:23,730
It's their history.
这是他们的历史

1779
01:17:23,730 --> 01:17:26,043
This is true for both Russia and Ukraine.
俄罗斯和乌克兰都是如此

1780
01:17:26,043 --> 01:17:28,770
- Yep. - It's people trying to ask,
-是的 -人们试图问
1781
01:17:28,770 --> 01:17:30,767
they have many dragons and they're asking themselves
他们有很多龙 他们在问自己

1782
01:17:30,767 --> 01:17:33,353
a question, who are we? - That's for sure.
一个问题 我们是谁？-那是肯定的

1783
01:17:33,353 --> 01:17:35,130
- What is this?
-这是什么？

1784
01:17:35,130 --> 01:17:37,380
What is the future of this nation?
这个国家的未来是什么？

1785
01:17:37,380 --> 01:17:41,220
We thought we are a great nation.
我们认为我们是一个伟大的国家

1786
01:17:41,220 --> 01:17:45,843
And I think both countries say this and they say,
我认为两个国家都这么说 他们说

1787
01:17:46,860 --> 01:17:50,100
well, how do we become the great nation we thought we are?
嗯 我们如何成为我们认为的伟大国家？

1788
01:17:50,100 --> 01:17:52,860
- Yeah. - And so what,
-是的 -那又怎样

1789
01:17:52,860 --> 01:17:55,170
first of all, you got in trouble.
首先 你遇到了麻烦

1790
01:17:55,170 --> 01:17:58,620
What the dynamics of the trouble?
麻烦的动力是什么？

1791
01:17:58,620 --> 01:18:00,907
And is something you regret saying?
你后悔说了什么吗？

1792
01:18:00,907 --> 01:18:03,571
- No. No, no. I thought about it a lot.
-不 不 不 我想了很多
1793
01:18:03,571 --> 01:18:06,210
I laid out four reasons for the war.
我列出了战争的四个原因

1794
01:18:06,210 --> 01:18:08,898
And then I was criticized in "The Atlantic,"
然后我在《大西洋月刊》中受到批评

1795
01:18:08,898 --> 01:18:12,060
the argument was reduced to one reason,
争论被简化为一个原因

1796
01:18:12,060 --> 01:18:15,360
which was a caricature of the reason.
这是对原因的讽刺

1797
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,300
I gave a variety of reasons why the war happened,
我给出了战争发生的各种原因

1798
01:18:18,300 --> 01:18:20,970
mismanagement on the part of the West
西方管理不善

1799
01:18:20,970 --> 01:18:23,620
in relationship to Russia and foreign policy
与俄罗斯和外交政策的关系

1800
01:18:24,510 --> 01:18:26,610
since the wall fell.
自从柏林墙倒塌以来

1801
01:18:26,610 --> 01:18:29,163
It's understandable 'cause it's extremely complex.
这是可以理解的 因为它非常复杂

1802
01:18:30,270 --> 01:18:31,740
Hyper reliance on Russia
对俄罗斯的过度依赖

1803
01:18:31,740 --> 01:18:35,970
as a Cardinal source of energy provision for Europe
作为欧洲能源供应的主要来源

1804
01:18:35,970 --> 01:18:39,723
in the wake of idiot environmental globalist utopianism,
在愚蠢的环境全球主义乌托邦主义之后

1805
01:18:41,790 --> 01:18:45,700
the expansionist tendencies of Russia
俄罗斯的扩张主义倾向

1806
01:18:47,010 --> 01:18:48,840
that are analogous in some sense
在某种意义上类似于

1807
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:51,180
to the Soviet Union Empire building.
苏联帝国的建设

1808
01:18:51,180 --> 01:18:52,740
And then the last one,
然后是最后一个

1809
01:18:52,740 --> 01:18:54,000
which is the one I got in trouble for,
这就是我陷入困境的原因

1810
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:57,480
which is Putin's belief
这是普京的信念

1811
01:18:57,480 --> 01:19:00,120
or willingness to manipulate his people
或者说是操纵他的人民的意愿

1812
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:03,930
into believing that Russia is a salvific force
相信俄罗斯是一支救命的力量

1813
01:19:03,930 --> 01:19:06,870
in the face of idiot Western wokeism.
面对愚蠢的西方世界

1814
01:19:06,870 --> 01:19:08,193
And that's the one I got in trouble for.
这就是我陷入困境的原因

1815
01:19:08,193 --> 01:19:09,990
It's like, "Well, you're justifying Putin,"
就像 “嗯 你在为普京辩护 ”

1816
01:19:09,990 --> 01:19:10,823
it's like...
就像…

1817
01:19:13,050 --> 01:19:15,180
It's not only the Russians that think
不仅仅是俄罗斯人在思考

1818
01:19:15,180 --> 01:19:17,190
the West has lost its mind.
西方已经失去了理智

1819
01:19:17,190 --> 01:19:19,260
The Eastern Europeans think so too.
东欧人也这么想

1820
01:19:19,260 --> 01:19:20,093
And do I know that?
我知道吗？

1821
01:19:20,093 --> 01:19:22,350
It's like, well,
就像 嗯

1822
01:19:22,350 --> 01:19:26,700
I went to 15 Eastern European countries this spring
今年春天我去了 15 个东欧国家

1823
01:19:26,700 --> 01:19:30,150
and I talked to 300 political and cultural leaders.
我和 300 名政治和文化领袖交谈

1824
01:19:30,150 --> 01:19:32,040
And you might say, "Well, they were all conservatives.
你可能会说 “嗯 他们都是保守派

1825
01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:35,340
It's just like actually no they weren't.
就好像实际上他们不是

1826
01:19:35,340 --> 01:19:37,200
Most of them were conservatives
他们中的大多数人是保守派

1827
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,150
'cause it turns out that they're more willing to talk to me,
因为事实证明他们更愿意和我说话

1828
01:19:39,150 --> 01:19:42,300
but a good chunk of them were liberals
但是他们中的很大一部分是自由派

1829
01:19:42,300 --> 01:19:46,110
by any stretch of the imagination
无论想象力如何延伸

1830
01:19:46,110 --> 01:19:48,990
and a fair number of them were canceled progressives.
其中相当多的人被取消了进步人士

1831
01:19:48,990 --> 01:19:53,990
- Well, because you're very concerned about the culture wars
-因为你非常担心文化战争

1832
01:19:54,570 --> 01:19:57,360
that perhaps are a signal
这也许是一个信号

1833
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:01,800
of a possible bad future
一个可能糟糕的未来

1834
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:03,930
for this country and for this part of the world,
对于这个国家和世界的这个部分

1835
01:20:03,930 --> 01:20:06,330
that reason stands out.
这个原因很突出

1836
01:20:06,330 --> 01:20:07,163
And
和

1837
01:20:09,540 --> 01:20:13,380
do you sort of looking back at four reasons
你是否回顾了四个原因

1838
01:20:13,380 --> 01:20:16,320
think it deserves to have a place in one of the four?
认为它应该在四个中占有一席之地？

1839
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:19,593
- Oh absolutely. - Because it is, you know-
-哦 当然 -因为它是 你知道-
1840
01:20:20,490 --> 01:20:22,777
- Well the four was bifurcated, eh, because I said,
-嗯 这四个是分开的 嗯 因为我说

1841
01:20:22,777 --> 01:20:24,330
"Look, Putin might believe this."
“听着 普京可能会相信 ”

1842
01:20:24,330 --> 01:20:25,830
And I actually think he does
我真的认为他知道

1843
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:27,540
'cause I read a bunch of Putin speeches
因为我读过很多普京的演讲

1844
01:20:27,540 --> 01:20:29,640
and I have been reading them for 15 years
我已经读了 15 年了

1845
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:31,500
and my sense of people generally,
我对人们的感觉

1846
01:20:31,500 --> 01:20:32,550
and this was true of Hitler,
希特勒也是如此

1847
01:20:32,550 --> 01:20:35,640
it's like, well, what did Hitler believe?
就像 嗯 希特勒相信什么？

1848
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:37,920
Well, did you read what he wrote?
你读过他写的东西吗？

1849
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:40,050
He just did what he said he was going to do.
他只是做了他说他要做的事

1850
01:20:40,050 --> 01:20:42,420
And you might think, well, some people are so tricky
你可能会想 嗯 有些人太狡猾了

1851
01:20:42,420 --> 01:20:47,190
they have a whole body of elaborated speech
他们有一整套精心策划的演讲
1852
01:20:47,190 --> 01:20:49,860
that's completely separate from their personality,
这与他们的个性完全不同

1853
01:20:49,860 --> 01:20:52,770
and their personality is pursuing a different agenda
他们的个性追求不同的议程

1854
01:20:52,770 --> 01:20:56,013
and this whole body of speech is nothing but affront.
这整个演讲除了冒犯什么都不是

1855
01:20:57,090 --> 01:20:58,500
- Yeah. - It's like good luck
-是的 -就像好运一样

1856
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:00,210
finding someone that sophisticated,
找到一个如此老练的人

1857
01:21:00,210 --> 01:21:01,980
first of all, if you say things long enough,
首先 如果你说的话足够长

1858
01:21:01,980 --> 01:21:02,940
you're gonna believe them.
你会相信的

1859
01:21:02,940 --> 01:21:04,860
- That's a really interesting and fascinating
-这是一个非常有趣和迷人的

1860
01:21:04,860 --> 01:21:06,030
and important point.
和重要的一点

1861
01:21:06,030 --> 01:21:09,690
Even if you start out as a lie, as a propaganda,
即使你一开始是一个谎言 作为一个宣传

1862
01:21:09,690 --> 01:21:12,660
I think Hitler is an example of somebody
我认为希特勒是一个例子

1863
01:21:12,660 --> 01:21:14,070
that I think really quickly
我想得很快

1864
01:21:14,070 --> 01:21:15,973
you start to believe the propaganda.
你开始相信宣传

1865
01:21:15,973 --> 01:21:17,430
- Well- - It's really interesting.
-嗯——这真的很有趣

1866
01:21:17,430 --> 01:21:19,320
You've thought a lot about AI systems.
你对人工智能系统想了很多

1867
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,890
It's like don't you become what you practice?
就像你不变成你练习的样子吗？

1868
01:21:22,890 --> 01:21:24,930
And the answer to that is, well, absolutely.
答案是 嗯 绝对是

1869
01:21:24,930 --> 01:21:26,460
We even know the neurology.
我们甚至知道神经学

1870
01:21:26,460 --> 01:21:28,500
It's like when you first formulate a concept,
就像当你第一次形成一个概念时

1871
01:21:28,500 --> 01:21:32,070
huge swaths of your cortex are lit up so to speak.
可以说 你大脑皮层的大片区域被照亮了

1872
01:21:32,070 --> 01:21:34,800
But as you practice that, first of all,
但是当你练习的时候 首先

1873
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:36,810
the right hemisphere stops participating.
右脑停止参与

1874
01:21:36,810 --> 01:21:40,710
And then the left participates less and less
然后左脑参与越来越少

1875
01:21:40,710 --> 01:21:42,990
until you build specialized machinery
直到你建造出专门的机器

1876
01:21:42,990 --> 01:21:45,930
for exactly that conceptual frame.
为了那个概念框架

1877
01:21:45,930 --> 01:21:49,110
And then you start to see it, not just think it.
然后你开始看到它 而不仅仅是想它

1878
01:21:49,110 --> 01:21:52,410
And so if you're telling the same lies over and over,
所以如果你一遍又一遍地说同样的谎言

1879
01:21:52,410 --> 01:21:53,700
who do you think you're fooling?
你认为你在愚弄谁？

1880
01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:56,520
Think, well, I can withstand my own lies.
想想 嗯 我能忍受我自己的谎言

1881
01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:58,470
Not if they're effective lies.
如果它们是有效的谎言就不会了

1882
01:21:58,470 --> 01:22:02,430
And if they're effective enough to fool millions of people
如果它们足够有效地愚弄数百万人

1883
01:22:02,430 --> 01:22:04,500
and then they reflect them back to you,
然后他们把它们反映给你

1884
01:22:04,500 --> 01:22:06,470
what makes you think you're going to be able
是什么让你认为你能够

1885
01:22:06,470 --> 01:22:08,250
to withstand that?
忍受它？

1886
01:22:08,250 --> 01:22:09,083
You aren't.
你不是

1887
01:22:09,083 --> 01:22:11,260
And so I do think Putin believes
所以我确实认为普京相信

1888
01:22:12,150 --> 01:22:14,700
to the degree that he believes anything.
到他相信任何事情的程度

1889
01:22:14,700 --> 01:22:18,210
I do believe that he thinks of himself as a ballwork
我确实相信他认为自己是一个球

1890
01:22:18,210 --> 01:22:23,210
for Christendom against the degeneration of the West.
为了基督教世界反对西方的堕落

1891
01:22:23,610 --> 01:22:26,700
And that's that third way that Dugin and Putin
这是杜金和普京

1892
01:22:26,700 --> 01:22:27,840
have been talking about,
已经谈论了 15 年的第三种方式

1893
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:31,110
the philosopher Alexander Dugin and Putin for 15 years.
哲学家亚历山大·杜金和普京

1894
01:22:31,110 --> 01:22:34,620
Now, what that is is very amorphous.
现在 这是非常模糊的

1895
01:22:34,620 --> 01:22:38,310
Solzhenitsyn thought the Russians would have to return
索尔仁尼琴认为俄罗斯人必须回归

1896
01:22:38,310 --> 01:22:42,720
to the incremental development of Orthodox Christianity
东正教的渐进发展

1897
01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:45,030
to escape from the communist trap.
逃离共产主义陷阱

1898
01:22:45,030 --> 01:22:46,950
And to some degree that's happened in Russia,
在某种程度上 这发生在俄罗斯
1899
01:22:46,950 --> 01:22:49,530
'cause there's been a return to Orthodox Christianity.
因为东正教已经回归

1900
01:22:49,530 --> 01:22:51,870
Now you could say, yeah, but the Orthodox church
现在你可以说 是的 但是东正教

1901
01:22:51,870 --> 01:22:54,000
has just been co-opted by the state.
刚刚被国家增选

1902
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:56,040
And I would say there's some evidence for that.
我想说有一些证据可以证明这一点

1903
01:22:56,040 --> 01:23:01,040
I've heard for example, that the metropolitan owns,
例如 我听说大都会拥有

1904
01:23:01,110 --> 01:23:03,270
now, I don't know if this is true,
现在 我不知道这是不是真的

1905
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:06,360
owns $5 billion worth of personal property.
拥有价值 50 亿美元的个人财产

1906
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:09,120
And I would say there's a bit of a moral hazard in that
我想说这有点道德风险

1907
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,730
and it's possible that the Orthodox church
东正教会有可能

1908
01:23:11,730 --> 01:23:14,280
has been co-opted, but there has been somewhat
被增选 但在某种程度上

1909
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:16,500
of an Orthodox revival in Russia
俄罗斯东正教的复兴

1910
01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:18,660
and I don't think that's all bad.
我不认为这都是坏事
1911
01:23:18,660 --> 01:23:21,570
Now, even if Putin doesn't believe any of this,
现在 即使普京不相信这些

1912
01:23:21,570 --> 01:23:24,240
if he's just a manipulator,
如果他只是一个操纵者

1913
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:28,443
and unfortunately I don't think that's true.
不幸的是 我不认为这是真的

1914
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:32,520
I've read his speeches. It doesn't look like it to me.
我读过他的演讲 在我看来不像

1915
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,830
And he is by no means the worst Russian leader
他绝不是最糟糕的俄罗斯领导人

1916
01:23:34,830 --> 01:23:36,243
of the last 100 years.
在过去的 100 年里

1917
01:23:37,320 --> 01:23:39,420
- [Lex] Well, there's quite a selection there.
-[莱克斯]嗯 那里有相当多的选择

1918
01:23:39,420 --> 01:23:43,683
- There certainly is, but, and I say that knowing that.
-当然有 但是 我说知道这一点

1919
01:23:45,480 --> 01:23:46,980
Even if he doesn't believe it,
即使他不相信

1920
01:23:48,660 --> 01:23:51,510
he's convinced his people that it's true.
他让他的人相信这是真的

1921
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:56,510
And so we're stuck with the claim in either case.
所以无论哪种情况 我们都被这一主张困住了

1922
01:23:57,300 --> 01:23:59,860
And that's the point I was trying to make in the article.
这就是我在文章中试图表达的观点

1923
01:23:59,860 --> 01:24:04,860
- Sometimes I'm troubled by people that explain things
-有时我被解释事情的人所困扰

1924
01:24:05,790 --> 01:24:08,130
and a lot of people have reached out to me,
很多人都联系过我

1925
01:24:08,130 --> 01:24:11,880
experts telling me how I should feel,
专家告诉我我应该怎么想

1926
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:14,100
what I should think about Ukraine.
我应该怎么看待乌克兰

1927
01:24:14,100 --> 01:24:17,970
Oh, you naive, Lex, you're so naive.
哦 你太天真了 莱克斯 你太天真了

1928
01:24:17,970 --> 01:24:20,400
You know, here's how it really is.
你知道 事情是这样的

1929
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:24,150
But then I get to see people that lost their home.
但是后来我看到失去家园的人

1930
01:24:24,150 --> 01:24:28,320
I get to see people on the Russian side who believe they're,
我看到俄罗斯方面的人相信他们

1931
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:31,110
I genuinely think that there's some degree
我真的认为在某种程度上

1932
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:33,374
to which they have love in their heart,
他们心中有爱

1933
01:24:33,374 --> 01:24:38,374
they see themselves as heroes saving a land from Nazis.
他们认为自己是从纳粹手中拯救土地的英雄

1934
01:24:38,850 --> 01:24:41,430
- How else would you motivate young men to go fight?
-否则你会如何激励年轻人去战斗？

1935
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:45,780
- It's just it's these humans destroying
-只是这些人类在摧毁

1936
01:24:45,780 --> 01:24:49,620
not only their homes, but creating generational hate
不仅仅是他们的家园 还制造了世代仇恨

1937
01:24:49,620 --> 01:24:52,830
destroying the possibility of love towards each other.
摧毁了彼此相爱的可能性

1938
01:24:52,830 --> 01:24:54,780
They're basically creating hate.
他们基本上是在制造仇恨

1939
01:24:54,780 --> 01:24:59,580
What I've heard a lot of is on February 24th of this year,
我经常听到的是今年 2 月 24 日

1940
01:24:59,580 --> 01:25:04,290
hate was born at a scale that region has not seen.
仇恨以前所未有的规模诞生

1941
01:25:04,290 --> 01:25:06,720
Hate towards not Vladimir Putin,
恨的不是弗拉基米尔·普京

1942
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:09,420
hate towards not the soldiers in Russia,
恨的不是俄罗斯的士兵

1943
01:25:09,420 --> 01:25:12,033
but hates towards all Russians.
而是恨所有俄罗斯人

1944
01:25:13,020 --> 01:25:15,360
Hate that will last generations.
仇恨将持续几代人

1945
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:18,130
And then you could see
然后你可以看到

1946
01:25:20,280 --> 01:25:23,730
just the pain there.
只是那里的痛苦

1947
01:25:23,730 --> 01:25:26,950
And then when all these experts talk about
然后当所有这些专家谈论

1948
01:25:31,350 --> 01:25:35,670
agriculture and energy and geopolitics and yeah,
农业、能源和地缘政治 是的

1949
01:25:35,670 --> 01:25:40,170
maybe like what you say with the fighting the ideologies
也许就像你在战斗中说的意识形态

1950
01:25:40,170 --> 01:25:41,370
of the woke and so on,
觉醒者等等

1951
01:25:41,370 --> 01:25:45,660
I just feel like it's missing something deep.
我只是觉得它错过了一些深刻的东西

1952
01:25:45,660 --> 01:25:47,830
That war is not fought
那场战争没有打响

1953
01:25:50,100 --> 01:25:52,500
about any of those things.
关于这些事情中的任何一件

1954
01:25:52,500 --> 01:25:55,320
War is started and war is averted
战争开始了 战争避免了

1955
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:58,015
based on human beings based on humanity.
基于人类 基于人类

1956
01:25:58,015 --> 01:26:00,810
- Well here's another ugly thought
-这是另一个丑陋的想法

1957
01:26:00,810 --> 01:26:02,823
since we haven't had enough so far.
因为到目前为止我们还没有足够的
1958
01:26:05,910 --> 01:26:07,713
We locked everything down for COVID.
我们锁定了新冠病毒的一切

1959
01:26:08,790 --> 01:26:10,710
How much face to face communication was there
有多少面对面的交流

1960
01:26:10,710 --> 01:26:13,050
between the West and Vladimir Putin?
西方和弗拉基米尔·普京之间？

1961
01:26:13,050 --> 01:26:14,520
How about none? - Yeah.
没有怎么样？-是的

1962
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:17,040
- How about that was the wrong amount?
-这是错误的数量吗？

1963
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:19,410
Especially given that Europe was completely dependent
尤其是考虑到欧洲完全依赖

1964
01:26:19,410 --> 01:26:21,150
on Putin for its energy supplies.
能源供应依赖普京

1965
01:26:21,150 --> 01:26:23,550
Well, not completely, but you know what I mean,
嗯 不完全是 但你知道我的意思

1966
01:26:23,550 --> 01:26:25,950
materially insignificantly.
物质上微不足道

1967
01:26:25,950 --> 01:26:28,680
So maybe had to go talk to him once every six months.
所以也许每六个月必须和他谈一次

1968
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,870
Maybe he's in a bit of a bubble.
也许他有点泡沫

1969
01:26:30,870 --> 01:26:31,800
Probably.
可能吧
1970
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,290
- And not just an information bubble
-不仅仅是信息泡沫

1971
01:26:34,290 --> 01:26:36,390
how all these experts tell me about.
所有这些专家告诉我的

1972
01:26:36,390 --> 01:26:39,240
- Yeah, no, a human bubble. - Human bubble. You bet, man.
-是的 不 一个人类泡泡 -人类泡泡 你打赌 伙计

1973
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:41,280
Look, one of the things I've really learned,
听着 我真正学到的一件事是

1974
01:26:41,280 --> 01:26:44,343
there's a real emphasis on hospitality in the Old Testament.
旧约中非常强调好客

1975
01:26:45,330 --> 01:26:47,010
I just brought all these scholars together
我只是把所有这些学者聚集在一起

1976
01:26:47,010 --> 01:26:48,630
to talk about Exodus.
谈论《出埃及记》

1977
01:26:48,630 --> 01:26:50,880
I have this security team with me
我有一个安全团队

1978
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:53,760
and they're tough military guys,
他们是坚强的军人

1979
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:57,150
but they're on board for this mission, let's say.
但是他们在船上执行这项任务 比方说

1980
01:26:57,150 --> 01:26:58,680
And so they went outta their way
所以他们不遗余力地

1981
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:01,470
to be hospitable to my academic guests.
对我的学术客人热情好客

1982
01:27:01,470 --> 01:27:04,380
They laid out nice platters of meat and cheese and crackers.
他们摆了一大盘肉、奶酪和饼干

1983
01:27:04,380 --> 01:27:06,857
They spent all day preparing this house I had rented
他们花了一整天准备我租的房子

1984
01:27:06,857 --> 01:27:09,870
so that we could have a hospitable time with these scholars.
这样我们就可以和这些学者度过一段好客的时光

1985
01:27:09,870 --> 01:27:11,190
Most of whom I didn't know well,
他们中的大多数我都不太了解

1986
01:27:11,190 --> 01:27:13,500
but who said they would come and spend eight days
但谁说他们会来度过八天

1987
01:27:13,500 --> 01:27:15,450
talking about this book with me.
和我谈论这本书

1988
01:27:15,450 --> 01:27:16,740
We rented some jet skis.
我们租了一些水上摩托车

1989
01:27:16,740 --> 01:27:18,090
We had a nice house.
我们有一个漂亮的房子

1990
01:27:18,090 --> 01:27:21,300
We had fun and we got to know each other
我们玩得很开心 我们互相了解

1991
01:27:21,300 --> 01:27:22,860
and we got to trust each other
我们互相信任

1992
01:27:22,860 --> 01:27:24,660
because we could see that we could have some fun
因为我们可以看到我们可以玩得很开心

1993
01:27:24,660 --> 01:27:26,430
and that we could let our hair down a bit.
我们可以放松一点

1994
01:27:26,430 --> 01:27:27,840
We didn't have to be on guard.
我们不必警惕

1995
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:30,810
And that made the talks way deeper.
这让谈话变得更深了

1996
01:27:30,810 --> 01:27:33,231
And then we found out we couldn't get through Exodus
然后我们发现我们无法通过出埃及记

1997
01:27:33,231 --> 01:27:37,440
in eight days and so I had proposed very early on
八天后 所以我很早就提议

1998
01:27:37,440 --> 01:27:38,760
that we're gonna double the length.
我们要把长度增加一倍

1999
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:40,980
And so I pulled eight people out of their lives
所以我把八个人从他们的生活中拉出来

2000
01:27:40,980 --> 01:27:42,900
for eight days.
八天

2001
01:27:42,900 --> 01:27:44,970
That's not an easy thing to do.
这不是一件容易的事情

2002
01:27:44,970 --> 01:27:46,320
It's also quite expensive
它也相当昂贵

2003
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:49,080
and the DailyWire+ people picked all that up
DailyWire+的人接受了所有这些

2004
01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:51,990
and they said yes right away.
他们马上答应了

2005
01:27:51,990 --> 01:27:53,940
Said, "We'd love to do this again."
说 “我们很想再做一次 ”

2006
01:27:53,940 --> 01:27:54,960
Well, why?
嗯 为什么？

2007
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:56,550
Well, partly because it was,
嗯 部分原因是

2008
01:27:56,550 --> 01:27:58,770
intellectually it was unbelievably engaging.
从理智上讲 它令人难以置信地吸引人

2009
01:27:58,770 --> 01:27:59,603
I learned so much.
我学到了很多

2010
01:27:59,603 --> 01:28:01,560
It'll take me like a year to digest it
我需要一年的时间来消化它

2011
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,034
if I can ever digest it.
如果我能消化的话

2012
01:28:04,034 --> 01:28:08,430
But they had a really good time.
但是他们玩得很开心

2013
01:28:08,430 --> 01:28:11,040
And so when they were offered that combination
所以当他们得到这种组合时

2014
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:14,460
of intellectual challenge, let's say in hospitality,
智力挑战 比方说热情好客

2015
01:28:14,460 --> 01:28:15,600
it was a no brainer.
这是显而易见的

2016
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:17,760
They just said, every one of them said,
他们只是说 他们每个人都说
2017
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,400
if I can do it in any way, I will definitely be there.
如果我能以任何方式做到这一点 我一定会去那里

2018
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,260
And I went to Washington a bunch of times
我去了华盛顿很多次

2019
01:28:24,363 --> 01:28:26,190
and the culture of hospitality
好客的文化

2020
01:28:26,190 --> 01:28:28,320
has broken down in Washington.
在华盛顿已经崩溃了

2021
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:31,650
40% of congressmen sleep in their offices.
40%的国会议员睡在办公室里

2022
01:28:31,650 --> 01:28:33,180
They don't have apartments.
他们没有公寓

2023
01:28:33,180 --> 01:28:34,530
Their family isn't there with them.
他们的家人不在他们身边

2024
01:28:34,530 --> 01:28:37,680
They don't have social occasions
他们没有社交场合

2025
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:40,500
with their fellow Democrats or Republicans,
和他们的民主党或共和党同胞

2026
01:28:40,500 --> 01:28:43,121
much less across the table.
更不用说坐在桌子对面了

2027
01:28:43,121 --> 01:28:46,050
And I tried to have some meetings in Washington
我试图在华盛顿举行一些会议

2028
01:28:46,050 --> 01:28:48,510
that were bilateral a couple of times,
那是双边的几次
2029
01:28:48,510 --> 01:28:50,550
get young Republican congressmen
让年轻的共和党国会议员

2030
01:28:50,550 --> 01:28:52,650
and Democrats together to talk.
和民主党人一起交谈

2031
01:28:52,650 --> 01:28:54,450
And as soon as they talk, they think, oh...
他们一说话 就想 哦…

2032
01:28:54,450 --> 01:28:55,607
It was so interesting
太有趣了

2033
01:28:55,607 --> 01:28:59,220
'cause one of the lunches was about 15 people,
因为其中一次午餐大约有 15 个人

2034
01:28:59,220 --> 01:29:01,350
half Democrats and half Republicans.
一半民主党人 一半共和党人

2035
01:29:01,350 --> 01:29:03,870
And all I'd asked them to do was just spend three minutes
我只要求他们花三分钟

2036
01:29:03,870 --> 01:29:06,330
talking about why you decided to become a Congressman,
谈论你为什么决定成为国会议员

2037
01:29:06,330 --> 01:29:08,480
which is not a job I would take by the way.
顺便说一句 这不是我会接受的工作

2038
01:29:09,450 --> 01:29:12,960
You spend 25 hours a week fundraising on the telephone.
你每周花 25 个小时打电话筹款

2039
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:14,880
Your family isn't there with you.
你的家人不在你身边

2040
01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:17,730
You have to run for reelection every two years.
你必须每两年竞选一次连任

2041
01:29:17,730 --> 01:29:20,670
You're beholden to the party apparatus, right?
你受制于政党机构 对吗？

2042
01:29:20,670 --> 01:29:22,620
You're vilified constantly.
你经常被诽谤

2043
01:29:22,620 --> 01:29:25,110
This is not, you know, people think,
这不是 你知道 人们认为

2044
01:29:25,110 --> 01:29:26,880
well this is a job for the privileged.
这是特权阶层的工作

2045
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:29,760
It's like, yeah, you go and run for Congress
就像 是的 你去竞选国会议员

2046
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:30,960
and find out how much fun it is
看看这有多有趣

2047
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:32,160
and put your family on the line
让你的家人冒着风险

2048
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:34,290
and then have to beg for your job every two years
然后每两年不得不乞求你的工作

2049
01:29:34,290 --> 01:29:36,660
while your enemies, the worst of your enemies
而你的敌人 你最坏的敌人

2050
01:29:36,660 --> 01:29:40,680
and the worst of your friends are viciously henpecking you.
你最坏的朋友正在恶毒地怕你

2051
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:43,560
And so anyways, we had them all sit around a table,
所以不管怎样 我们让他们围坐在一张桌子旁

2052
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:47,790
and said, okay, just say why you ran for Congress.
然后说 好吧 就说你为什么竞选国会议员

2053
01:29:47,790 --> 01:29:49,530
It was so cool, especially for a Canadian
这太酷了 尤其是对一个加拿大人来说

2054
01:29:49,530 --> 01:29:51,720
'cause you Americans you're so bloody theatrical.
因为你们美国人太戏剧化了

2055
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:53,133
It's something to watch.
这是值得看的东西

2056
01:29:54,300 --> 01:29:56,190
It was like "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"
就像“史密斯先生去华盛顿”

2057
01:29:56,190 --> 01:29:57,023
for every one of them.
对他们每个人来说

2058
01:29:57,023 --> 01:29:59,403
It's like, well, this country's given us so much.
就像 嗯 这个国家给了我们很多

2059
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:05,370
We've benefited so much from our time here,
我们从这里的时光中受益匪浅

2060
01:30:05,370 --> 01:30:06,870
we think this is a wonderful country.
我们认为这是一个美好的国家

2061
01:30:06,870 --> 01:30:09,033
We really felt that we should give back.
我们真的觉得我们应该回馈社会

2062
01:30:09,033 --> 01:30:10,560
Then the next one would talk
然后下一个人会说话

2063
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:12,240
and it was like exactly the same story.
就像完全一样

2064
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:13,530
And then it didn't matter
然后就不重要了

2065
01:30:13,530 --> 01:30:14,790
if they were a Republican or Democrat.
如果他们是共和党人还是民主党人

2066
01:30:14,790 --> 01:30:15,810
You couldn't tell the difference.
你看不出区别

2067
01:30:15,810 --> 01:30:17,970
No one could. And was it genuine?
没有人能 这是真诚的吗？

2068
01:30:17,970 --> 01:30:20,310
It's like, well, are you genuine?
就像 嗯 你是真诚的吗？

2069
01:30:20,310 --> 01:30:23,190
You think these people are worse than you?
你认为这些人比你更坏吗？

2070
01:30:23,190 --> 01:30:25,320
First of all, they're not.
首先 他们不是

2071
01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:27,720
Second of all. They're probably better.
其次 他们可能更好

2072
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:29,220
All things considered.
考虑到所有的事情

2073
01:30:29,220 --> 01:30:31,830
It's not that easy to become a Congressman.
成为国会议员并不容易

2074
01:30:31,830 --> 01:30:34,230
And I'm sure there's some bad apples in the bunch,
我肯定这群人中有一些坏苹果

2075
01:30:34,230 --> 01:30:35,700
but by and large,
但总的来说
2076
01:30:35,700 --> 01:30:37,770
you walk away from your meetings with these people
你离开了与这些人的会议

2077
01:30:37,770 --> 01:30:38,603
and you think
你认为

2078
01:30:41,070 --> 01:30:42,090
pretty impressive.
相当令人印象深刻

2079
01:30:42,090 --> 01:30:44,220
- They really are giving a part of themselves
-他们真的在奉献自己的一部分

2080
01:30:44,220 --> 01:30:45,600
in the name of service.
以服务的名义

2081
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:48,210
Maybe over time they become cynical
也许随着时间的推移 他们会变得愤世嫉俗

2082
01:30:48,210 --> 01:30:52,800
and become jaded and worn down by the whole system.
对整个系统感到厌倦和疲惫

2083
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:55,650
But I think a lot of it- - Would you imagine that.
但我想了很多——你能想象吗

2084
01:30:55,650 --> 01:30:58,294
- Is healed, I think.
——我想已经痊愈了

2085
01:30:58,294 --> 01:31:01,050
And I don't think I'm, well, I'm in part naive,
我不认为我 嗯 我有一部分天真

2086
01:31:01,050 --> 01:31:03,810
but not fully, that a lot of it is healed
但不完全是 很多都痊愈了

2087
01:31:03,810 --> 01:31:05,610
through the power of conversation.
通过谈话的力量
2088
01:31:05,610 --> 01:31:08,220
Just basic social interaction.
只是基本的社交互动

2089
01:31:08,220 --> 01:31:10,380
I do think that the- - You bet, man.
我确实认为——你打赌 伙计

2090
01:31:10,380 --> 01:31:11,970
- The effects of this pandemic-
-这场流行病的影响——

2091
01:31:11,970 --> 01:31:14,340
- Especially by listening. - Listening,
-尤其是通过倾听 -倾听

2092
01:31:14,340 --> 01:31:16,410
just sitting there and it doesn't have to be
只是坐在那里 不一定

2093
01:31:16,410 --> 01:31:18,060
talking about the actual issue,
谈论实际问题

2094
01:31:18,060 --> 01:31:20,130
it's actually humor
这实际上是幽默

2095
01:31:20,130 --> 01:31:23,970
and all those kinds of things about personal struggles,
以及所有关于个人斗争的事情

2096
01:31:23,970 --> 01:31:26,280
all those kinds of things that remind you
所有这些事情提醒你

2097
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:28,620
that you're all just humans.
你们都是普通人

2098
01:31:28,620 --> 01:31:31,530
- Yeah, well the great leaders that I've met,
-是的 我见过的伟大领导人

2099
01:31:31,530 --> 01:31:32,703
and I've met some now,
我现在见过一些

2100
01:31:33,930 --> 01:31:36,150
they go listen to their constituents.
他们去倾听他们的选民

2101
01:31:36,150 --> 01:31:37,410
It's not a policy discussion.
这不是政策讨论

2102
01:31:37,410 --> 01:31:38,730
It's not an ideology discussion.
这不是意识形态讨论

2103
01:31:38,730 --> 01:31:39,633
They go say, okay,
他们去说 好吧

2104
01:31:40,793 --> 01:31:42,330
what's your life like?
你的生活是什么样的？

2105
01:31:42,330 --> 01:31:43,620
And what are your problems?
你有什么问题？

2106
01:31:43,620 --> 01:31:45,780
And tell me about them.
告诉我他们的情况

2107
01:31:45,780 --> 01:31:47,970
And then they listen and then they're struck by them.
然后他们倾听 然后被他们打动

2108
01:31:47,970 --> 01:31:49,740
And then they gather up all that misery
然后他们收集所有的痛苦

2109
01:31:49,740 --> 01:31:52,440
and they bring it to the congressional officer
他们把它带给国会官员

2110
01:31:52,440 --> 01:31:54,270
to the parliament and they think
到议会 他们思考

2111
01:31:54,270 --> 01:31:57,600
here's what the people are crying out for.
这就是人民迫切需要的

2112
01:31:57,600 --> 01:32:02,520
And the good leaders, that's a leader, leader listens.
好的领导者 那是一个领导者 领导者倾听

2113
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:06,840
It's like I talked to Jimmy Carr about comedy.
就像我和吉米·卡尔谈论喜剧一样

2114
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:11,840
And he's sold out stages worldwide on a tour being funny.
他在世界各地的巡回演出中因搞笑而售罄

2115
01:32:13,170 --> 01:32:14,370
That's hard.
这很难

2116
01:32:14,370 --> 01:32:17,463
He said comedy is the most, standup comedy,
他说喜剧是最有趣的单口喜剧

2117
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:20,850
which is what I do in some real sense.
这就是我在某种真正意义上所做的

2118
01:32:20,850 --> 01:32:23,460
It's a thing I do that it's the most akin
这是我做的一件最相似的事情

2119
01:32:23,460 --> 01:32:25,800
to what I'm doing on my book tours I would say.
我想说 这是我在巡回售书中做的事情

2120
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:27,480
It's the closest analog.
这是最接近的模拟

2121
01:32:27,480 --> 01:32:29,790
He said, "It's the most dialogical enterprise."
他说 “这是最对话的企业 ”

2122
01:32:29,790 --> 01:32:32,370
And I thought, well, why, what do you mean?
我想 嗯 为什么 你是什么意思？

2123
01:32:32,370 --> 01:32:34,500
Cause see, it's just a monologue.
因为看 这只是一段独白

2124
01:32:34,500 --> 01:32:36,240
And it's a prepared monologue.
这是一段准备好的独白

2125
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:39,930
I mean, you have to interact dynamically with the audience
我是说 你必须与观众动态互动

2126
01:32:39,930 --> 01:32:40,950
while you're telling your jokes
当你讲笑话的时候

2127
01:32:40,950 --> 01:32:42,030
and you gotta get the timing right,
你必须把握好时机

2128
01:32:42,030 --> 01:32:44,700
but you have a body of jokes.
但是你有一大堆笑话

2129
01:32:44,700 --> 01:32:47,190
He said, "Well, here's how you prepare the jokes."
他说 “好吧 这就是你如何准备笑话 ”

2130
01:32:47,190 --> 01:32:49,417
And I've been told this by other comedians.
其他喜剧演员告诉过我这一点

2131
01:32:49,417 --> 01:32:52,289
"You go to 50 clubs before you go on your tour
“在你巡回演出之前 你去了 50 个俱乐部

2132
01:32:52,289 --> 01:32:55,320
and you go some new material and you think it's funny,
你去了一些新材料 你认为它很有趣

2133
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:58,287
and you go into a club and you lay out your new material
你走进一个俱乐部 展示你的新材料

2134
01:32:58,287 --> 01:33:00,393
and people laugh at some of it.
人们会嘲笑其中的一些
2135
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:04,560
And you pay attention to what they laugh at
你会注意他们嘲笑什么

2136
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:06,390
and what they don't laugh at.
以及他们不嘲笑什么

2137
01:33:06,390 --> 01:33:09,060
So you subject yourself to the judgment of the crowd
所以你让自己服从人群的判断

2138
01:33:09,060 --> 01:33:11,340
and you get rid of everything that isn't funny.
你会摆脱所有不好笑的东西

2139
01:33:11,340 --> 01:33:14,550
And if you do that enough, even if you're not that funny,
如果你做得足够多 即使你没那么好笑

2140
01:33:14,550 --> 01:33:17,190
the crowd will tell you what's funny.
人群会告诉你什么是好笑的

2141
01:33:17,190 --> 01:33:20,010
So you can imagine, imagine you do 50 shows
所以你可以想象 想象你做了 50 场演出

2142
01:33:20,010 --> 01:33:21,060
and each is an hour long
每场演出一小时

2143
01:33:21,060 --> 01:33:24,480
and you collect two minutes of humor from each show.
你从每个节目中收集两分钟的幽默

2144
01:33:24,480 --> 01:33:27,990
So you throw away 90, you throw away two hours,
所以你浪费了 90 分钟 浪费了两个小时

2145
01:33:27,990 --> 01:33:30,270
more than 98% of it.
超过 98%

2146
01:33:30,270 --> 01:33:31,833
Collect two minutes per show.
每场演出收集两分钟
2147
01:33:32,790 --> 01:33:34,290
So you're not very funny at all.
所以你一点也不好笑

2148
01:33:34,290 --> 01:33:35,910
You're like funny 2% of the time.
你有 2%的时间是有趣的

2149
01:33:35,910 --> 01:33:38,970
You aggregate that, man, you're a scream.
你把它聚集起来 伙计 你是一个尖叫

2150
01:33:38,970 --> 01:33:41,460
And so that's what a leader does is,
这就是领导者所做的

2151
01:33:41,460 --> 01:33:43,200
that is what a leader does is goes out
这就是领导者所做的就是走出去

2152
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:45,360
and he aggregates the misery, you know?
他把痛苦聚集起来 你知道吗？

2153
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:46,920
And the hopes.
还有希望

2154
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,070
And then I do think that's revivifying
然后我确实认为这是复兴

2155
01:33:49,950 --> 01:33:52,110
to someone who would otherwise be cynical and jaded
给那些原本愤世嫉俗和厌倦的人

2156
01:33:52,110 --> 01:33:54,600
because then the person can say to themselves,
因为这样这个人就可以对自己说

2157
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:58,770
despite the inadequacies of the system and my inadequacies,
尽管这个系统和我的不足之处

2158
01:33:58,770 --> 01:34:02,580
I'm gathering up the misery and the hope
我在收集痛苦和希望

2159
01:34:02,580 --> 01:34:05,708
and I'm bringing it forward where it can be redressed.
我把它带到可以纠正的地方

2160
01:34:05,708 --> 01:34:08,397
- Giving it a voice. - Yep. That's right.
-给它一个声音 -是的 没错

2161
01:34:08,397 --> 01:34:09,390
Giving it a voice.
给它一个声音

2162
01:34:09,390 --> 01:34:10,223
- Can you actually take me through a day
-你真的能带我度过一天吗

2163
01:34:10,223 --> 01:34:14,613
'cause this is fascinating through your comedy tour.
因为你的喜剧之旅很有趣

2164
01:34:15,750 --> 01:34:19,623
What does a day in the life of Jordan Peterson look like?
乔丹·彼得森生活中的一天是什么样的？

2165
01:34:20,580 --> 01:34:22,560
Which is this very interesting day.
这是非常有趣的一天

2166
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:24,780
Let's look at the day when you have to speak.
让我们看看你必须说话的那一天

2167
01:34:24,780 --> 01:34:27,210
- Mm-hmm. - Preparing your mind,
-嗯哼 -准备好你的头脑

2168
01:34:27,210 --> 01:34:30,090
thinking of what you're going to talk about.
思考你要谈论什么

2169
01:34:30,090 --> 01:34:33,690
Preparing yourself physically and mentally
让自己在身体和精神上做好准备

2170
01:34:33,690 --> 01:34:37,290
to interact with the crowd through the actual speaking,
通过实际的演讲与人群互动

2171
01:34:37,290 --> 01:34:39,810
how do you adjust what you're thinking through
你如何调整你正在思考的东西

2172
01:34:39,810 --> 01:34:41,750
and how do you come down from that
你是如何从那下来的

2173
01:34:41,750 --> 01:34:46,593
so you can start all again as a limited biological system?
所以你可以作为一个有限的生物系统重新开始？

2174
01:34:48,060 --> 01:34:52,350
- Well, I'm usually up by 7:00
-嗯 我通常 7 点起床

2175
01:34:52,350 --> 01:34:56,880
and ready to go by 7:30 or 8:00.
准备好 7 点半或 8 点出发

2176
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:58,650
- Coffee? - No.
-咖啡？-没有

2177
01:34:58,650 --> 01:35:00,510
- Nothing. - Steak and water.
-没什么 -牛排和水

2178
01:35:00,510 --> 01:35:02,760
- [Lex] How many times a day, steak?
-[·莱克斯]一天吃几次 牛排？

2179
01:35:02,760 --> 01:35:05,100
- That's all I eat. - How many times?
-我就吃这么多 -多少次？

2180
01:35:05,100 --> 01:35:07,260
- Three or four depending on the day.
-三到四次 取决于一天

2181
01:35:07,260 --> 01:35:09,660
- Steak and water. - Steak and sparkling water.
-牛排和水 -牛排和苏打水
2182
01:35:10,500 --> 01:35:13,267
Yeah. So monastic aestheticism, man.
是的 太修道了 伙计

2183
01:35:13,267 --> 01:35:14,100
(Lex laughing)
（莱克斯笑）

2184
01:35:14,100 --> 01:35:17,010
- Well, I did the proper, I usually just once a day,
-嗯 我做了适当的 我通常一天只有一次

2185
01:35:17,010 --> 01:35:19,440
I did the proper Jordan Peterson last night
我昨晚做了适当的乔丹·彼得森

2186
01:35:19,440 --> 01:35:21,930
and just ate two steaks. - And how was that?
刚刚吃了两份牛排 -感觉怎么样？

2187
01:35:21,930 --> 01:35:23,190
- Was wonderful.
-太棒了

2188
01:35:23,190 --> 01:35:26,340
- Yeah, well, if you have to only eat one thing,
-是的 好吧 如果你只能吃一样东西

2189
01:35:26,340 --> 01:35:27,810
you know, could be worse.
你知道 可能会更糟

2190
01:35:27,810 --> 01:35:29,670
So anyways, I'm ready to go at 8:00
不管怎样 我准备好八点出发了

2191
01:35:29,670 --> 01:35:31,220
because we're generally moving.
因为我们通常都在搬家

2192
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:34,680
- [Lex] What does it moving mean? You're constantly-
-[·莱克斯]搬家是什么意思？你一直-

2193
01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:36,357
- Flying somewhere. - Okay.
-飞到某个地方 -好的

2194
01:35:36,357 --> 01:35:38,910
- And we usually use private flights now
-我们现在通常使用私人航班

2195
01:35:38,910 --> 01:35:41,757
because the commercial airlines aren't reliable enough
因为商业航空公司不够可靠

2196
01:35:41,757 --> 01:35:44,550
and you cannot not make a venue.
你不能不建造一个场地

2197
01:35:44,550 --> 01:35:46,700
Right. So that's rule number one on a tour.
对 这是旅游的第一条规则

2198
01:35:47,730 --> 01:35:48,963
You make the show.
你做节目

2199
01:35:50,250 --> 01:35:53,070
- Yeah. - And then rule number two is
-是的 -然后第二条规则是

2200
01:35:53,070 --> 01:35:56,359
anybody who causes any trouble on the tour is gone
任何在旅游中制造麻烦的人都要离开

2201
01:35:56,359 --> 01:35:59,283
because there is zero room for error.
因为没有犯错的空间

2202
01:36:01,020 --> 01:36:05,520
No, there's zero room for unnecessary unaddressed error,
不 没有不必要的未解决错误的空间

2203
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:06,630
'cause there's gonna be errors.
因为会有错误

2204
01:36:06,630 --> 01:36:10,710
The guys I have around me now, if they make a mistake,
我现在身边的人 如果他们犯了错误

2205
01:36:10,710 --> 01:36:11,860
they fix it right away.
他们会马上解决

2206
01:36:12,695 --> 01:36:13,710
And that's great.
这很好

2207
01:36:13,710 --> 01:36:15,870
- There's a lot of people relying on you to be there
-有很多人依靠你去那里

2208
01:36:15,870 --> 01:36:16,950
so you have to be there. - Yeah.
所以你必须去 -是的

2209
01:36:16,950 --> 01:36:19,440
Like 4,000 people typically.
大概有 4000 人

2210
01:36:19,440 --> 01:36:21,540
- Yeah. - So then
-是的 -然后呢

2211
01:36:21,540 --> 01:36:26,130
I'm on the plane and I usually write
我在飞机上 我通常会写作

2212
01:36:26,130 --> 01:36:30,762
or often because there's no internet on the plane
或者通常是因为飞机上没有互联网

2213
01:36:30,762 --> 01:36:32,550
and that's a good use of time.
这是对时间的良好利用

2214
01:36:32,550 --> 01:36:34,890
So I'm writing a new book. So I write on the plane.
所以我在写一本新书 所以我在飞机上写作

2215
01:36:34,890 --> 01:36:37,380
- Typing or handwriting? - Typing.
-打字还是手写？-打字

2216
01:36:37,380 --> 01:36:39,000
- Yeah. Typing.
-是的 打字
2217
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:43,650
And then we land and we go to,
然后我们着陆 我们去

2218
01:36:43,650 --> 01:36:47,370
it's usually early afternoon by then, we go to a hotel.
那时通常是下午早些时候 我们去酒店

2219
01:36:47,370 --> 01:36:49,680
It's usually a nice hotel that's not corporate.
通常是一家不错的酒店 不是企业酒店

2220
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:51,480
I don't really like corporate hotels.
我真的不喜欢企业酒店

2221
01:36:51,480 --> 01:36:54,750
My secretary and one of my logistics guys
我的秘书和我的一个后勤人员

2222
01:36:54,750 --> 01:36:59,220
has got quite good at picking kind of adventurous hotels,
非常擅长挑选那种冒险的酒店

2223
01:36:59,220 --> 01:37:00,270
boutique hotels.
精品酒店

2224
01:37:00,270 --> 01:37:01,770
They're usually in the old parts of the city,
他们通常在城市的老城区

2225
01:37:01,770 --> 01:37:04,050
especially in Europe, somewhere interesting.
尤其是在欧洲 一些有趣的地方

2226
01:37:04,050 --> 01:37:08,970
And so we go there and then lunch usually,
所以我们通常会去那里 然后吃午饭

2227
01:37:08,970 --> 01:37:11,100
and sometimes that's an air fryer
有时那是一个空气炸锅

2228
01:37:11,100 --> 01:37:12,480
and a steak in the hotel room
在酒店房间里吃牛排
2229
01:37:12,480 --> 01:37:14,520
and I leave a trail of air fryers behind me
我会在身后留下一串空气炸锅

2230
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:16,020
all across the world.
在世界各地

2231
01:37:16,020 --> 01:37:20,670
And then Tammy and I usually go out and have a walk
然后塔米和我通常出去散步

2232
01:37:20,670 --> 01:37:22,620
or something and take a look at the city.
或者什么 看看这个城市

2233
01:37:22,620 --> 01:37:25,170
And then I have a rest for like an hour and a half
然后我休息一个半小时

2234
01:37:25,170 --> 01:37:26,940
or an hour, half an hour. - Like a nap?
或者一个小时 半个小时 -比如小睡？

2235
01:37:26,940 --> 01:37:27,870
- Yeah, a nap.
-是的 小睡

2236
01:37:27,870 --> 01:37:29,460
I have to sleep for 20 minutes
我必须睡 20 分钟

2237
01:37:29,460 --> 01:37:30,480
and that's about all I can sleep,
这就是我能睡的全部

2238
01:37:30,480 --> 01:37:31,497
but I need to do that in the late afternoon.
但我需要在下午晚些时候做这件事

2239
01:37:31,497 --> 01:37:32,970
- [Lex] And that refreshes your mind?
-[莱克斯]这让你头脑清醒吗？

2240
01:37:32,970 --> 01:37:36,104
- Yep. That wakes me up again for the evening.
-是的 这让我晚上又醒了

2241
01:37:36,104 --> 01:37:38,310
And then Tam has to sleep longer.
然后塔姆必须睡得更久

2242
01:37:38,310 --> 01:37:40,230
She's still recovering from her illness
她还在从疾病中恢复

2243
01:37:40,230 --> 01:37:42,540
and so she has to sleep longer in the afternoon,
所以她下午必须睡得更久

2244
01:37:42,540 --> 01:37:44,430
and that's absolutely necessary for both of us
这对我们俩来说都是绝对必要的

2245
01:37:44,430 --> 01:37:46,560
or things start to get frayed.
或者事情开始磨损

2246
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:48,910
And so then we go to the venue
然后我们去会场

2247
01:37:50,100 --> 01:37:55,100
and then I usually sit for an hour if I'm gonna lecture.
如果我要讲课 我通常会坐一个小时

2248
01:37:55,620 --> 01:37:57,000
I've been doing a lot of Q and As,
我已经做了很多问答

2249
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:58,950
and that's a little easier, but if I'm gonna lecture,
这有点容易 但是如果我要讲课

2250
01:37:58,950 --> 01:38:01,080
I have to sit for an hour.
我必须坐一个小时

2251
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:02,343
And then I think, okay,
然后我想 好吧

2252
01:38:05,100 --> 01:38:07,620
what question am I trying to investigate?
我想调查什么问题？

2253
01:38:07,620 --> 01:38:09,720
I have to have that, so that's the point.
我必须有这个 所以这就是重点

2254
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:13,170
What mystery am I trying to unravel?
我想解开什么谜团？

2255
01:38:13,170 --> 01:38:15,660
It's usually associated with one of the rules in my book
它通常与我书中的规则有关

2256
01:38:15,660 --> 01:38:17,730
because technically it's a book tour,
因为严格来说 这是一次巡回售书

2257
01:38:17,730 --> 01:38:21,750
but each of those rules is an investigation into an ethic
但这些规则中的每一条都是对一种伦理的调查

2258
01:38:21,750 --> 01:38:24,630
and each of them points to a deeper sort of mystery
每一条都指向一种更深层次的神秘

2259
01:38:24,630 --> 01:38:25,463
in some sense.
在某种意义上

2260
01:38:25,463 --> 01:38:28,860
And there's no end to the amount it can be explored.
它可以被探索的数量永无止境

2261
01:38:28,860 --> 01:38:31,020
And so I have the question/
所以我有一个问题/

2262
01:38:31,020 --> 01:38:32,820
The question might be something like
问题可能是这样的

2263
01:38:33,690 --> 01:38:36,780
put your house in perfect order
把你的房子整理得井井有条

2264
01:38:36,780 --> 01:38:38,460
before you criticize the world.
在你批评世界之前

2265
01:38:38,460 --> 01:38:40,385
Okay. What does that mean exactly?
好吧 那到底是什么意思？

2266
01:38:40,385 --> 01:38:42,360
What does house mean?
house 是什么意思？

2267
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:46,800
What does put mean, that active verb?
put 是什么意思 那个主动动词？

2268
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:48,990
What does perfect and order mean?
完美和秩序是什么意思？

2269
01:38:48,990 --> 01:38:51,300
Why before you criticize the world?
为什么在你批评世界之前？

2270
01:38:51,300 --> 01:38:52,950
What does it mean to criticize?
批评是什么意思？

2271
01:38:52,950 --> 01:38:54,720
What does it mean to criticize the world?
批评世界是什么意思？

2272
01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:56,880
How can you do that properly or improperly?
你怎么能正确或不恰当地做到这一点？

2273
01:38:56,880 --> 01:38:59,370
So I start to think about how to decompose the question.
所以我开始思考如何分解这个问题

2274
01:38:59,370 --> 01:39:02,220
- And you start to think which of these decompositions
-你开始思考这些分解中的哪些

2275
01:39:02,220 --> 01:39:03,840
are important to really dig into?
是值得深入研究的？
2276
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:05,130
- Yeah, well then they'll strike me.
-是的 然后他们会打我

2277
01:39:05,130 --> 01:39:06,420
It's like, okay, there's something there
就像 好吧 那里有一些东西

2278
01:39:06,420 --> 01:39:09,120
that I've been maybe noodling around on
我可能一直在摸索

2279
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:11,190
that I would like to investigate further.
我想进一步调查

2280
01:39:11,190 --> 01:39:13,740
Then I think, okay, how can I approach this problem?
然后我想 好吧 我该如何解决这个问题？

2281
01:39:13,740 --> 01:39:15,760
I think, well, I have this story that I know
我想 嗯 我有一个我知道的故事

2282
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:17,910
and I have this story and I have this story,
我有这个故事 我有这个故事

2283
01:39:17,910 --> 01:39:19,980
but I haven't juxtaposed them before.
但我以前没有把它们并列

2284
01:39:19,980 --> 01:39:21,960
And there's gonna be some interesting interaction
会有一些有趣的互动

2285
01:39:21,960 --> 01:39:23,490
in the juxtaposition.
在并列中

2286
01:39:23,490 --> 01:39:26,130
So I have the question and I kind have a framework
所以我有一个问题 我有一个框架

2287
01:39:26,130 --> 01:39:29,160
of interpretation and then I have some potential
解释 然后我有一些潜力
2288
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:31,170
narrative places I can go.
我可以去的叙事地方

2289
01:39:31,170 --> 01:39:32,010
And then I think, okay,
然后我想 好吧

2290
01:39:32,010 --> 01:39:35,160
I can go juggle that and see what happens.
我可以去玩杂耍 看看会发生什么

2291
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:38,880
And so then what I want to do is concentrate on that process
然后我想做的是专注于这个过程

2292
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:40,410
while attending to the audience,
在关注观众的同时

2293
01:39:40,410 --> 01:39:42,690
to make sure that the words are landing
确保话语落地

2294
01:39:42,690 --> 01:39:45,090
and then see if I can delve into it deeply enough
然后看看我是否能足够深入地钻研它

2295
01:39:45,090 --> 01:39:50,090
so that a narrative emerges spontaneously with an ending.
这样一个故事就会以结尾自发出现

2296
01:39:50,670 --> 01:39:53,316
Now I'm sure you've experienced this in podcasts, right?
我相信你在播客中经历过 对吗？

2297
01:39:53,316 --> 01:39:56,190
Maybe I'm wrong, but my experience is being,
也许我错了 但我的经验是

2298
01:39:56,190 --> 01:39:58,350
if I fall into the conversation
如果我陷入对话

2299
01:39:58,350 --> 01:40:00,840
and we know about the timeframe,
我们知道时间框架

2300
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:03,610
there'll be a natural narrative arc.
会有一个自然的叙事弧

2301
01:40:03,610 --> 01:40:06,210
So you'll kind of know when the midpoint is,
所以你会知道中点是什么时候

2302
01:40:06,210 --> 01:40:08,130
and you'll kind of see when you're reaching a conclusion
你会看到什么时候你会得出结论

2303
01:40:08,130 --> 01:40:09,420
and then if you really pay attention,
然后如果你真的注意的话

2304
01:40:09,420 --> 01:40:12,123
you can see that's a good place to stop.
你可以看到这是一个停下来的好地方

2305
01:40:12,990 --> 01:40:15,390
And it's kind of you come to a point
这有点像你到了一个地步

2306
01:40:15,390 --> 01:40:20,250
and you have to be alert and patient to see that.
你必须保持警惕和耐心才能看到这一点

2307
01:40:20,250 --> 01:40:22,380
And you have to be willing to be satisfied
你必须愿意满足

2308
01:40:22,380 --> 01:40:24,210
with where you've got to.
对你必须做的事情

2309
01:40:24,210 --> 01:40:26,730
But if you do that and then it's like a comedian
但是如果你这样做了 就像喜剧演员一样

2310
01:40:26,730 --> 01:40:29,190
making the punchline work, it's like
让笑点发挥作用 就像

2311
01:40:29,190 --> 01:40:32,280
I've got all these balls in the air
我把所有这些球都抛在空中

2312
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:33,870
and they're going somewhere
它们要去某个地方

2313
01:40:33,870 --> 01:40:36,450
and this is how they come together.
这就是它们走到一起的方式

2314
01:40:36,450 --> 01:40:37,610
And people love that, right?
人们喜欢这样 对吧？

2315
01:40:37,610 --> 01:40:39,480
To say, oh, this and this and this and this
说 哦 这个 这个 这个和这个

2316
01:40:39,480 --> 01:40:42,750
and this whack together.
和这个重击在一起

2317
01:40:42,750 --> 01:40:46,020
And that's an insight and it is very much like a punchline.
这是一种洞察力 非常像笑点

2318
01:40:46,020 --> 01:40:48,215
- Well, that's interesting because your mind actually,
-嗯 这很有趣 因为你的大脑实际上

2319
01:40:48,215 --> 01:40:49,920
I'm fan of your podcast too,
我也是你播客的粉丝

2320
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:53,430
and you are always driving towards that.
你总是朝着那个方向前进

2321
01:40:53,430 --> 01:40:57,090
I would say for me in a podcast conversation,
我会在播客对话中对我说

2322
01:40:57,090 --> 01:41:00,750
there's often a kind of "Alice in Wonderland"
经常有一种“爱丽丝梦游仙境”

2323
01:41:00,750 --> 01:41:02,340
type of exploration. - Mm-hmm.
探索的类型 -嗯哼

2324
01:41:02,340 --> 01:41:03,570
Down the rabbit hole of man.
人类的兔子洞

2325
01:41:03,570 --> 01:41:06,240
- And then a new thing pops up.
-然后一个新的东西出现了

2326
01:41:06,240 --> 01:41:08,700
The more absurd, the wilder the better.
越荒谬 越狂野越好

2327
01:41:08,700 --> 01:41:10,020
- Yeah. - Conversations with Elon
-是的 -和埃隆的对话

2328
01:41:10,020 --> 01:41:10,927
are like this. - Yeah. I bet.
是这样的 -是的 我打赌

2329
01:41:10,927 --> 01:41:14,220
- It's like actually the more you drive towards an arc,
-就像你越往弧线开

2330
01:41:14,220 --> 01:41:16,350
the more uncomfortable you start to get
你开始变得越不舒服

2331
01:41:16,350 --> 01:41:20,500
in a fun, absurd conversation because, oh,
在一个有趣、荒谬的对话中 因为 哦

2332
01:41:20,500 --> 01:41:22,470
I'm now one of the normies.
我现在是正常人之一

2333
01:41:22,470 --> 01:41:23,490
No, I don't want that.
不 我不想那样

2334
01:41:23,490 --> 01:41:26,820
I want to be, I want the rabbit, I want the crazy,
我想成为 我想要兔子 我想要疯狂
2335
01:41:26,820 --> 01:41:29,790
because it makes it more fun.
因为它让它更有趣

2336
01:41:29,790 --> 01:41:32,070
But somehow throughout it,
但不知何故 在整个过程中

2337
01:41:32,070 --> 01:41:35,970
there is wisdom that you try to grasp at
有些智慧是你试图掌握的

2338
01:41:35,970 --> 01:41:37,590
such that there is a thread to-
所以有一条线索——

2339
01:41:37,590 --> 01:41:38,610
- Well, that's the thing, man.
-嗯 这就是问题所在 伙计

2340
01:41:38,610 --> 01:41:40,350
You're following the thread, eh?
你在跟着线索走 嗯？

2341
01:41:40,350 --> 01:41:42,960
- Yeah. We try. - Well, that's right.
-是的 我们尽力了 -嗯 没错

2342
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:44,280
That's what we're trying to do.
这就是我们正在努力做的

2343
01:41:44,280 --> 01:41:47,280
That thread, that thread is the proper balance
这条线 这条线是适当的平衡

2344
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:49,140
between structure and spontaneity.
在结构和自发性之间

2345
01:41:49,140 --> 01:41:52,200
And it manifests itself as the instinct of meaning
它表现为意义的本能

2346
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:54,411
and that's the logos in a dialogos
这就是对话中的标志
2347
01:41:54,411 --> 01:41:56,010
and it really is the logos
这真的是标志

2348
01:41:56,010 --> 01:41:57,760
and God only knows what that means.
只有上帝知道这意味着什么

2349
01:41:58,650 --> 01:41:59,483
You know?
你知道吗？

2350
01:41:59,483 --> 01:42:00,570
I mean, the the biblical claim is
我是说 圣经的说法是

2351
01:42:00,570 --> 01:42:03,780
that logos is the fundamental principle of reality.
标志是现实的基本原则

2352
01:42:03,780 --> 01:42:05,730
And I think that's true.
我认为这是真的

2353
01:42:05,730 --> 01:42:07,950
I actually think that's true
我真的认为这是真的

2354
01:42:07,950 --> 01:42:10,650
'cause I think that that meaning that guides you,
因为我认为指导你的意义

2355
01:42:10,650 --> 01:42:11,493
well, here's a way of thinking about it.
嗯 这里有一种思考方式

2356
01:42:11,493 --> 01:42:13,413
I've been writing about this recently.
我最近一直在写这个

2357
01:42:14,280 --> 01:42:16,320
What's real? (locking)
什么是真实的？（锁定）

2358
01:42:16,320 --> 01:42:19,230
Matter. It's like, okay, that's one answer.
物质 就像 好吧 这是一个答案

2359
01:42:19,230 --> 01:42:20,163
What's real?
什么是真实的？

2360
01:42:21,060 --> 01:42:24,960
What matters is real 'cause that's how you act.
重要的是真实的 因为你就是这样行动的

2361
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:27,504
Okay. So that's different than matter.
好吧 这和物质不同

2362
01:42:27,504 --> 01:42:31,773
It's like, okay, what's the most real of what matters?
就像 好吧 最真实的是什么？

2363
01:42:32,850 --> 01:42:33,813
How about pain?
疼痛怎么样？

2364
01:42:34,650 --> 01:42:36,450
Why is it the most real?
为什么它是最真实的？

2365
01:42:36,450 --> 01:42:38,043
Try arguing it away.
试着争论它

2366
01:42:39,300 --> 01:42:40,143
Good luck.
祝你好运

2367
01:42:41,130 --> 01:42:44,010
So pain is the fundamental reality.
所以疼痛是最基本的现实

2368
01:42:44,010 --> 01:42:47,730
All right. Well that's rough.
好吧 这很艰难

2369
01:42:47,730 --> 01:42:50,080
Doesn't that lead to nihilism and hopelessness?
这难道不会导致虚无主义和绝望吗？

2370
01:42:51,210 --> 01:42:52,043
Yeah.
是的

2371
01:42:52,043 --> 01:42:54,780
Doesn't it lead to a philosophy that's antithetical
这难道不会导致一种对立的哲学吗

2372
01:42:54,780 --> 01:42:58,396
towards being the most fundamental reality is pain?
成为最基本的现实是痛苦？

2373
01:42:58,396 --> 01:42:59,820
Yes.
是的

2374
01:42:59,820 --> 01:43:02,070
Is there anything more fundamental than pain?
还有什么比痛苦更基本的吗？

2375
01:43:03,690 --> 01:43:04,523
Love.
爱

2376
01:43:06,570 --> 01:43:07,403
Really.
真的

2377
01:43:08,370 --> 01:43:11,183
If you're in pain, (sobbing)
如果你在痛苦中 （哭泣）

2378
01:43:13,830 --> 01:43:14,853
love and truth.
爱和真理

2379
01:43:16,380 --> 01:43:18,180
That's what you got.
这就是你得到的

2380
01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:19,083
And you know,
你知道

2381
01:43:24,120 --> 01:43:26,790
if they're more powerful than pain,
如果它们比痛苦更强大

2382
01:43:26,790 --> 01:43:28,623
maybe they're the most real things.
也许它们是最真实的东西

2383
01:43:31,650 --> 01:43:33,690
- When you think about reality, what is real?
-当你思考现实时 什么是真实的？

2384
01:43:33,690 --> 01:43:36,180
That is the most real thing.
这是最真实的东西

2385
01:43:36,180 --> 01:43:37,043
- Well, it it's a tough one, right?
-嗯 这是一个艰难的问题 对吗？

2386
01:43:37,043 --> 01:43:40,410
Because you have to, 'cause if you're a scientist,
因为你必须这样做 因为如果你是一个科学家

2387
01:43:40,410 --> 01:43:43,800
a materialist think, well, (knocking)
唯物主义者认为 嗯 （敲门）

2388
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:45,030
the matter is the most real.
事情是最真实的

2389
01:43:45,030 --> 01:43:47,550
It's like, well, you don't know what the matter is.
就像 嗯 你不知道事情是什么

2390
01:43:47,550 --> 01:43:49,050
- Yeah. - So, and then when push
-是的 -所以 当推的时候

2391
01:43:49,050 --> 01:43:51,300
comes to shove and it will,
到了紧要关头 它会

2392
01:43:51,300 --> 01:43:53,100
you'll find out what's most real.
你会发现什么是最真实的

2393
01:43:53,100 --> 01:43:53,933
- Yeah.
-是的
2394
01:43:54,930 --> 01:43:59,250
I feel like this is missing.
我觉得这是缺失的

2395
01:43:59,250 --> 01:44:03,269
The physical reality is missing some of the things.
物理现实缺失了一些东西

2396
01:44:03,269 --> 01:44:06,000
So of course pain has a biological component
所以疼痛当然有生物成分

2397
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:08,100
and all those kinds of things, but it's missing
以及所有这些东西 但它缺失了

2398
01:44:08,100 --> 01:44:10,710
something deep about the human condition
关于人类状况的一些深刻的东西

2399
01:44:10,710 --> 01:44:15,300
that at least the modern science is not able to describe,
至少现代科学无法描述

2400
01:44:15,300 --> 01:44:17,280
but is it is reaching towards that.
但它正在朝着那个方向发展

2401
01:44:17,280 --> 01:44:21,150
- Yeah, it is. - And one way to describe it
-是的 它是 -一种描述它的方法

2402
01:44:21,150 --> 01:44:23,790
as you're describing is the reason is reaching it
正如你所描述的 原因是达到它

2403
01:44:23,790 --> 01:44:25,890
is because underneath of science
是因为在科学之下

2404
01:44:25,890 --> 01:44:29,523
is this assumption that there's a deep-
这个假设是有一个很深的——

2405
01:44:30,510 --> 01:44:32,040
- [Jordan] Logos.
-[·乔丹]标志
2406
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:34,830
- Thing to this whole thing we're trying to do.
-我们试图做的整件事

2407
01:44:34,830 --> 01:44:36,630
- Well, you know, there's two traditions, right?
-嗯 你知道 有两种传统 对吗？

2408
01:44:36,630 --> 01:44:39,570
In some sense, there's two logos traditions.
从某种意义上说 有两种标志传统

2409
01:44:39,570 --> 01:44:44,370
There's the Greek rational enlightenment tradition.
有一种是希腊理性启蒙传统

2410
01:44:44,370 --> 01:44:47,520
That's a logos tradition and it insists that there's a logos
这是一种标志传统 它坚持认为有一个标志

2411
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:50,700
in nature and that science is the way to approach it.
在自然界中 科学是接近它的方式

2412
01:44:50,700 --> 01:44:52,590
And then there's the Judeo-Christian logos,
然后是犹太-基督教标志

2413
01:44:52,590 --> 01:44:55,140
which is more embodied and more spiritual.
它更具体性和精神性

2414
01:44:55,140 --> 01:44:57,210
And I would say the West is actually an attempt
我想说西方实际上是一种尝试

2415
01:44:57,210 --> 01:44:59,040
to unite those two.
将这两者结合起来

2416
01:44:59,040 --> 01:45:01,660
And it's the proper attempt to unite those two
这是将这两者结合起来的适当尝试

2417
01:45:02,610 --> 01:45:04,920
because they need to be united.
因为他们需要团结起来

2418
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:07,890
And I see the union coming near terms, you know?
我看到联盟即将达成协议 你知道吗？

2419
01:45:07,890 --> 01:45:09,750
I talk to Frans de Waal, for example,
例如 我和弗朗斯·德·瓦尔谈过

2420
01:45:09,750 --> 01:45:13,100
about the animating principle of chimpanzee sovereignty.
关于黑猩猩主权的动画原则

2421
01:45:13,100 --> 01:45:15,300
And that's pretty close biologically.
这在生物学上非常接近

2422
01:45:15,300 --> 01:45:16,890
Is it power?
是权力吗？

2423
01:45:16,890 --> 01:45:19,410
'Cause that's the claim even from the biologists often.
因为即使是生物学家也经常这样说

2424
01:45:19,410 --> 01:45:23,670
The most dominant chimp has the best reproductive success.
最具统治力的黑猩猩有最好的繁殖成功

2425
01:45:23,670 --> 01:45:26,850
It's like, oh yeah? Dominant, hey?
就像 哦 是吗？占主导地位 嘿？

2426
01:45:26,850 --> 01:45:28,380
You mean using compulsion?
你是说使用强迫？

2427
01:45:28,380 --> 01:45:29,970
Okay. Let's look.
好吧 让我们看看

2428
01:45:29,970 --> 01:45:34,680
Are the chimps who use compulsion the most successful?
使用强迫的黑猩猩最成功吗？

2429
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:39,150
And the answer is sporadically and rarely.
答案是偶尔和很少

2430
01:45:39,150 --> 01:45:41,520
And for short, well, that's sporadically,
简而言之 嗯 那是偶尔的

2431
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:43,050
for short periods of time.
短时间内

2432
01:45:43,050 --> 01:45:46,713
Why? Because they meet an unpleasant end.
为什么？因为他们遇到了一个不愉快的结局

2433
01:45:47,820 --> 01:45:52,440
The subordinates over whom they exercise arbitrary control
他们任意控制的下属

2434
01:45:52,440 --> 01:45:56,100
wait for a weak moment and then tear them into shreds.
等待一个脆弱的时刻 然后把他们撕成碎片

2435
01:45:56,100 --> 01:45:56,970
Right?
对吗？

2436
01:45:56,970 --> 01:46:00,570
Every dictator's terror, and for good reason.
每个独裁者的恐惧 这是有充分理由的

2437
01:46:00,570 --> 01:46:03,060
And de Waal has showed that the alpha chimps,
德瓦尔已经表明 阿尔法黑猩猩

2438
01:46:03,060 --> 01:46:07,380
the males, who do have preferential mat access often,
雄性黑猩猩经常有优先的垫子使用权

2439
01:46:07,380 --> 01:46:12,120
are often and reliably the best peacemakers
通常是最好的和平缔造者

2440
01:46:12,120 --> 01:46:14,190
and the most reciprocal.
也是最互惠的

2441
01:46:14,190 --> 01:46:16,650
And so even among chimps, the principle of sovereignty
所以即使在黑猩猩中 主权原则

2442
01:46:16,650 --> 01:46:21,650
is something like iterated reciprocity.
有点像迭代的互惠

2443
01:46:23,070 --> 01:46:26,880
And that's a way better principle than power.
这是一个比权力更好的原则

2444
01:46:26,880 --> 01:46:28,770
And it's something like, I've been thinking
这就像 我一直在想

2445
01:46:28,770 --> 01:46:31,650
what's the antithesis of the spirit of power?
权力精神的对立面是什么？

2446
01:46:31,650 --> 01:46:33,543
I think it's the spirit of play.
我认为这是玩耍的精神

2447
01:46:35,370 --> 01:46:37,530
And you know, I don't know what you think about that,
你知道 我不知道你对此有什么看法

2448
01:46:37,530 --> 01:46:39,660
but when you have a good podcast conversation,
但是当你有一个好的播客对话时

2449
01:46:39,660 --> 01:46:41,970
you already described it in some sense as play.
你已经在某种意义上把它描述为玩耍

2450
01:46:41,970 --> 01:46:43,457
It's like, there's a structure, right?
就像 有一个结构 对吗？

2451
01:46:43,457 --> 01:46:45,960
'Cause it's an ordered conversation,
因为这是一个有序的对话

2452
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:48,180
but you want there to be play in the system.
但是你希望系统中有玩耍
2453
01:46:48,180 --> 01:46:51,420
And if you get that right, then it's really engaging.
如果你做对了 那么它真的很吸引人

2454
01:46:51,420 --> 01:46:54,900
And then it seems to have its own narrative arc.
然后它似乎有自己的叙事弧线

2455
01:46:54,900 --> 01:46:56,820
I'm not trying to impose that even on,
我甚至不想把它强加给

2456
01:46:56,820 --> 01:46:58,170
that's another thing I don't do.
这是我不做的另一件事

2457
01:46:58,170 --> 01:47:01,320
I didn't come to this conversation at all thinking
我根本没有想过

2458
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,620
here's what I want out of a conversation with Lex Fridman.
这是我想从与莱克斯·弗里德曼的对话中得到的

2459
01:47:04,620 --> 01:47:08,880
Like instrumentally, I thought I'll go talk to Lex.
就像工具一样 我想我要去和莱克斯谈谈

2460
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:09,713
Why?
为什么？

2461
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:12,810
I like his podcasts.
我喜欢他的播客

2462
01:47:12,810 --> 01:47:15,840
He he's doing something right. I don't know what it is.
他他做得对 我不知道是什么

2463
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:17,970
He asks interesting questions.
他问了一些有趣的问题

2464
01:47:17,970 --> 01:47:20,973
I'll go have a conversation with him. Where's it gonna go?
我去和他谈谈 它会去哪里？
2465
01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:23,523
Wherever it goes.
无论它去哪里

2466
01:47:24,450 --> 01:47:26,370
- Embracing the spirit of play.
-拥抱玩耍的精神

2467
01:47:26,370 --> 01:47:30,060
So you have this, when you're lecturing,
所以你有这个 当你讲课的时候

2468
01:47:30,060 --> 01:47:31,710
you're going in front of the crowd.
你走在人群前面

2469
01:47:31,710 --> 01:47:33,690
- Yeah. - You thought of a question.
-是的 -你想到了一个问题

2470
01:47:33,690 --> 01:47:36,420
- Yeah. - You get on the stage,
-是的 -你上台

2471
01:47:36,420 --> 01:47:38,343
first of all, are you nervous at all?
首先 你紧张吗？

2472
01:47:39,630 --> 01:47:43,080
- I'm very nervous when I'm sitting down
-我坐下来的时候非常紧张

2473
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:46,110
thinking through the structure initially,
最初思考结构

2474
01:47:46,110 --> 01:47:48,927
which is why my wife and I have been doing Q and As,
这就是为什么我和我妻子一直在做问答

2475
01:47:48,927 --> 01:47:50,809
and that's easier on me. - Yeah.
这对我来说更容易 -是的

2476
01:47:50,809 --> 01:47:52,560
(Lex chuckling)
（莱克斯笑）

2477
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:54,480
It's the way comedians are nervous.
这就是喜剧演员紧张的方式

2478
01:47:54,480 --> 01:47:59,190
Like Joe Rogan just did his special this weekend.
就像乔·罗根这个周末刚刚做了他的特别节目

2479
01:47:59,190 --> 01:48:03,840
And so he now has to sit nervously like a comedian does,
所以他现在必须像喜剧演员一样紧张地坐着

2480
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:07,050
which is like, I have no material now.
就像 我现在没有材料

2481
01:48:07,050 --> 01:48:08,070
- Right. - I have to start
-对 -我必须开始了

2482
01:48:08,070 --> 01:48:08,903
from scratch. - Well, that's it.
从头开始 -嗯 就是这样

2483
01:48:08,903 --> 01:48:10,860
When I was doing the lectures constantly
当我经常做讲座的时候

2484
01:48:10,860 --> 01:48:13,410
instead of the Q and As
而不是问答

2485
01:48:13,410 --> 01:48:15,360
basically what I was doing was writing
基本上我在做的是写作

2486
01:48:15,360 --> 01:48:17,100
a whole book chapter every night.
每天晚上一整章

2487
01:48:17,100 --> 01:48:18,630
- Yeah. - And you know,
-是的 -你知道

2488
01:48:18,630 --> 01:48:19,907
now that's a bit of an exaggeration
这有点夸张

2489
01:48:19,907 --> 01:48:22,680
'cause I would return to themes that I had developed,
因为我会回到我开发的主题

2490
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:24,540
but it's not really an exaggeration
但这并不夸张

2491
01:48:24,540 --> 01:48:29,433
because I didn't ever just go over wrote material ever.
因为我从来没有只是复习过写的材料

2492
01:48:30,270 --> 01:48:34,097
So it's very demanding and that part's nerveracking
所以这要求很高 这部分很紧张

2493
01:48:34,097 --> 01:48:37,097
'cause I sit down, it's an hour before the show and I think,
因为我坐下来 离演出还有一个小时 我想

2494
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:41,040
can I do this?
我能做到吗？

2495
01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:41,873
And you know, the answer is,
你知道 答案是

2496
01:48:41,873 --> 01:48:45,090
well, you did it a thousand times,
嗯 你做了一千次

2497
01:48:45,090 --> 01:48:46,123
but that's not this time.
但这次不是

2498
01:48:46,123 --> 01:48:48,240
- Yeah. - It's like can I
-是的 -就像我能

2499
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:49,200
come up with a question?
想出一个问题吗？

2500
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:51,300
Can I think through the structure?
我能通过结构思考吗？

2501
01:48:51,300 --> 01:48:56,160
Can I pull off the spontaneous narrative?
我能完成自发的叙述吗？

2502
01:48:56,160 --> 01:49:00,090
Can I pull it together? And the answer is I don't know.
我能把它拉在一起吗？答案是我不知道

2503
01:49:00,090 --> 01:49:02,730
And so then I get it together in my mind, I think,
然后我想

2504
01:49:02,730 --> 01:49:03,563
and that's hard.
这很难

2505
01:49:03,563 --> 01:49:05,823
It takes effort and it's nerveracking.
这需要努力 也很紧张

2506
01:49:06,870 --> 01:49:07,740
Okay, I got it.
好吧 我明白了

2507
01:49:07,740 --> 01:49:09,690
But then there's the moment you go out on stage
但有一天你走上舞台

2508
01:49:09,690 --> 01:49:13,470
and you think, well, I know I had it, but can I do it?
你会想 嗯 我知道我有 但我能做到吗？

2509
01:49:13,470 --> 01:49:15,240
No notes. - Yeah.
没有笔记 -是的

2510
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:16,590
- And then the question is, well,
-然后问题是 嗯

2511
01:49:16,590 --> 01:49:18,840
you're gonna find out while you do it.
你会在做的时候发现
2512
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:21,419
And so then I go out on stage
然后我走上舞台

2513
01:49:21,419 --> 01:49:24,480
and I don't talk to the audience.
我不和观众说话

2514
01:49:24,480 --> 01:49:27,322
I talk to one person at a time.
我一次只和一个人说话

2515
01:49:27,322 --> 01:49:29,207
And you can talk to one person, you know,
你可以和一个人说话 你知道

2516
01:49:29,207 --> 01:49:30,600
'cause you know how to do that.
因为你知道怎么做

2517
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:31,890
So I talk to a person and not too long
所以我和一个人说话 不要太久

2518
01:49:31,890 --> 01:49:33,900
'cause I don't wanna make them too nervous.
因为我不想让他们太紧张

2519
01:49:33,900 --> 01:49:35,970
And then someone else and someone else,
然后是其他人和其他人

2520
01:49:35,970 --> 01:49:38,040
and then I'm in contact with the audience.
然后我和观众联系

2521
01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:41,790
And then I can tell if the words are landing and I listen.
然后我可以判断单词是否着陆 我听着

2522
01:49:41,790 --> 01:49:43,540
It's like are they rustling around?
就像它们沙沙作响一样？

2523
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:46,140
Are they dead quiet?
它们非常安静吗？
2524
01:49:46,140 --> 01:49:47,397
Because you want dead quiet.
因为你想要非常安静

2525
01:49:47,397 --> 01:49:51,053
- Oh, I see 'cause that's what focus sounds like.
-哦 我明白了 因为这就是专注听起来的样子

2526
01:49:51,053 --> 01:49:53,490
You're in it together then.
那你们就在一起了

2527
01:49:53,490 --> 01:49:54,323
- You bet.
-当然

2528
01:49:54,323 --> 01:49:55,680
Well, and also here's a good rule
嗯 还有一个好规则

2529
01:49:55,680 --> 01:49:57,750
if you're learning to speak publicly,
如果你正在学习公开演讲

2530
01:49:57,750 --> 01:50:02,750
I never say a word till everyone is 100% quiet.
直到每个人都 100%安静 我才会说一个字

2531
01:50:04,620 --> 01:50:06,720
And it's a great way to start a talk
这是开始演讲的好方法

2532
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:08,970
because you're setting the frame, eh,
因为你在设置框架 嗯

2533
01:50:08,970 --> 01:50:11,640
and if the frame is well, I'll talk while you're talking,
如果框架很好 我会在你说话的时候说话

2534
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:14,460
the message is, well, you can talk.
信息是 嗯 你可以说话

2535
01:50:14,460 --> 01:50:16,260
This is a place where everybody can talk.
这是一个每个人都可以说话的地方

2536
01:50:16,260 --> 01:50:17,538
It's like, no, it's not.
就像 不 不是

2537
01:50:17,538 --> 01:50:21,210
This is a place where people paid to hear me talk.
这是一个人们付钱听我说话的地方

2538
01:50:21,210 --> 01:50:24,060
So I'm not gonna talk till everyone's listening.
所以在每个人都在听之前 我不会说话

2539
01:50:24,060 --> 01:50:28,170
And so then you get that stillness and then you just wait
然后你会得到这种静止 然后你就等着

2540
01:50:28,170 --> 01:50:30,840
because that stillness turns into an expectation.
因为这种静止变成了一种期望

2541
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:34,440
And then it turns into a kind of nervous expectation.
然后它变成了一种紧张的期望

2542
01:50:34,440 --> 01:50:37,170
Like what the hell is he doing? It's not manipulative.
比如他到底在干什么？这不是操纵

2543
01:50:37,170 --> 01:50:38,730
It's a sense of timing.
这是一种时间感

2544
01:50:38,730 --> 01:50:41,490
It's like just when that's right, you think, okay,
就像当这是正确的时候 你会想 好吧

2545
01:50:41,490 --> 01:50:42,960
now it's time to start.
现在是时候开始了

2546
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:44,370
- Well, the interesting thing
-嗯 有趣的是

2547
01:50:44,370 --> 01:50:45,834
about that nervous expectation
关于那种紧张的期望

2548
01:50:45,834 --> 01:50:49,410
is from an audience perspective, we're in it together.
从观众的角度来看 我们在一起

2549
01:50:49,410 --> 01:50:51,600
- Yeah. - I mean, into that silence,
-是的 -我是说 在那种沉默中

2550
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:53,130
there is a togetherness to it.
这是一种团结

2551
01:50:53,130 --> 01:50:55,440
- Of course, it's the union of everyone's attention.
-当然 这是每个人注意力的结合

2552
01:50:55,440 --> 01:50:57,180
- Yeah. - Yeah.
-是的 -是的

2553
01:50:57,180 --> 01:50:58,470
And that's a great thing.
这是一件很棒的事情

2554
01:50:58,470 --> 01:50:59,940
I mean, you love that at a concert
我是说 你喜欢在音乐会上这样

2555
01:50:59,940 --> 01:51:01,770
when everyone, it's not silence then,
当每个人 那就不是沉默了

2556
01:51:01,770 --> 01:51:03,960
but when everyone's attention is unified
但是当每个人的注意力都集中在一起时

2557
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:05,310
and everyone's moving in unison,
每个人都齐步走

2558
01:51:05,310 --> 01:51:09,117
it's like we're all worshiping the same thing, right?
就像我们都在崇拜同样的东西 对吗？

2559
01:51:09,117 --> 01:51:11,520
And that would be the point of the conversation.
这将是谈话的重点

2560
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:14,340
The point of the lecture, and the worship
演讲和崇拜的重点

2561
01:51:14,340 --> 01:51:16,650
is the direction of attention towards it.
是注意力的方向

2562
01:51:16,650 --> 01:51:18,330
And it's communion
这是交流

2563
01:51:18,330 --> 01:51:20,640
because everyone's doing it at the same time.
因为每个人都在同时做这件事

2564
01:51:20,640 --> 01:51:23,280
And so, I mean, there's not much difference
所以 我的意思是 没有太大区别

2565
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:25,353
between lecture theater and a church in that regard, right?
在这方面 演讲厅和教堂之间 对吗？

2566
01:51:25,353 --> 01:51:28,470
It's the same fundamental layout and structure.
这是相同的基本布局和结构

2567
01:51:28,470 --> 01:51:30,710
And they're very integrally associated with one another,
它们彼此之间非常紧密地联系在一起

2568
01:51:30,710 --> 01:51:32,280
one really grew out of the other,
一个真的从另一个发展出来

2569
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:34,350
the lecture theater grew out of the church.
演讲厅从教堂发展出来

2570
01:51:34,350 --> 01:51:37,010
So it's perfectly reasonable to be thinking about it
所以思考它是完全合理的
2571
01:51:37,010 --> 01:51:38,501
in those terms.
从这些角度来看

2572
01:51:38,501 --> 01:51:42,210
And then, okay, so after the lecture
然后 好吧 演讲结束后

2573
01:51:42,210 --> 01:51:45,600
we play a piece of music that is a piece of music
我们演奏一段音乐 这是一段音乐

2574
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:47,970
that I've been producing with some musicians
我一直在和一些音乐家一起制作

2575
01:51:47,970 --> 01:51:51,030
for a couple of books I'm gonna release in the fall.
我将在秋天发行几本书

2576
01:51:51,030 --> 01:51:52,417
Terrible books.
可怕的书

2577
01:51:52,417 --> 01:51:53,790
"ABC of Childhood Tragedy."
“童年悲剧的 ABC”

2578
01:51:53,790 --> 01:51:57,183
They're called dark, dark books.
它们被称为黑暗的书

2579
01:51:58,470 --> 01:52:01,230
Dark and comical books.
黑暗和滑稽的书

2580
01:52:01,230 --> 01:52:02,313
Terrible books.
可怕的书

2581
01:52:03,180 --> 01:52:05,253
Heartbreaking illustrations.
令人心碎的插图

2582
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:09,420
We set them to music, and so we play a piece from that.
我们给它们配上音乐 然后我们演奏其中的一段
2583
01:52:09,420 --> 01:52:13,646
And then afterwards I usually meet about 150 people
然后我通常会遇到大约 150 个人

2584
01:52:13,646 --> 01:52:16,676
to have photographs, so each of of those is a little-
有照片 所以每一个都有点——

2585
01:52:16,676 --> 01:52:19,590
- [Lex] Is there a little sparkle of human connection
-[·莱克斯]有没有一点人际关系的火花

2586
01:52:19,590 --> 01:52:21,600
that you have to- - A lot.
你必须——很多

2587
01:52:21,600 --> 01:52:22,500
A lot.
很多

2588
01:52:22,500 --> 01:52:26,490
It's a very intense 10 seconds with every person.
对每个人来说 这是非常紧张的 10 秒钟

2589
01:52:26,490 --> 01:52:28,680
You think, well, how 10 seconds be intense?
你想 好吧 10 秒钟有多紧张？

2590
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:31,920
It's like pay enough attention.
就像足够的关注

2591
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:33,300
It gets intense real quick.
很快就会变得紧张

2592
01:52:33,300 --> 01:52:36,960
- Does it break your heart to say goodbye so many times?
-说这么多次再见会让你心碎吗？

2593
01:52:36,960 --> 01:52:39,270
- It's like being in a wedding lineup,
-就像在婚礼阵容中

2594
01:52:39,270 --> 01:52:41,250
at a wedding that you wanna be at.
在你想参加的婚礼上

2595
01:52:41,250 --> 01:52:43,860
And everybody's dressed up and that's so weird, eh,
每个人都盛装打扮 这太奇怪了 嗯

2596
01:52:43,860 --> 01:52:45,330
'cause I bought these expensive suits
因为我买了这些昂贵的西装

2597
01:52:45,330 --> 01:52:47,700
when I went on tour and it broke my heart
当我去巡回演出时 它伤了我的心

2598
01:52:47,700 --> 01:52:48,960
'cause I spent so much money on them.
因为我在他们身上花了这么多钱

2599
01:52:48,960 --> 01:52:51,420
I thought, God, that's completely unconscionable.
我想 上帝 这完全不合情理

2600
01:52:51,420 --> 01:52:53,100
I thought no way, man.
我想不可能 伙计

2601
01:52:53,100 --> 01:52:55,500
- Yeah. - I'm in this 100%.
-是的 -我 100%在这

2602
01:52:55,500 --> 01:52:58,830
And so I'm gonna dress with respect.
所以我要尊重着装

2603
01:52:58,830 --> 01:52:59,663
And
和

2604
01:53:01,320 --> 01:53:05,940
like 60% of the audience comes in two or three piece suits.
就像 60%的观众穿着两三件套的西装

2605
01:53:05,940 --> 01:53:07,500
They're all dressed up.
他们都盛装打扮

2606
01:53:07,500 --> 01:53:09,300
Then there's this line to greet me
然后有一条线迎接我

2607
01:53:09,300 --> 01:53:11,250
and they're all happy to see me.
他们都很高兴见到我

2608
01:53:11,250 --> 01:53:13,470
That's not so hard to take. You know?
这并不难接受 你知道吗？

2609
01:53:13,470 --> 01:53:15,120
Although it is in a sense, right?
虽然在某种意义上是的 对吧？

2610
01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:19,050
Because normal interactions are pretty shallow
因为正常的互动非常肤浅

2611
01:53:19,050 --> 01:53:21,121
and you think I don't want shallow interactions.
你认为我不想要肤浅的互动

2612
01:53:21,121 --> 01:53:22,711
It's like yes, you do most of the time.
就像是的 你大部分时间都这样

2613
01:53:22,711 --> 01:53:25,770
- Yeah. It's intense. - It's very intense.
-是的 很激烈 -非常激烈

2614
01:53:25,770 --> 01:53:27,870
- And I don't know if you- - You've had a taste of this
-我不知道你是否--你尝过这种味道

2615
01:53:27,870 --> 01:53:28,703
no doubt 'cause people recognize you.
毫无疑问 因为人们认出了你

2616
01:53:28,703 --> 01:53:31,290
- Yeah, but I also have
-是的 但我也有

2617
01:53:31,290 --> 01:53:34,560
when a person recognizes me and they come with the love
当一个人认出我时 他们会带着爱来
2618
01:53:34,560 --> 01:53:37,440
and they're often brilliant people,
他们通常是聪明的人

2619
01:53:37,440 --> 01:53:39,900
one of the thoughts I have to deal with,
我必须处理的一个想法是

2620
01:53:39,900 --> 01:53:43,080
one of the dragons in my own mind is, you know,
我脑海中的一条龙是 你知道

2621
01:53:43,080 --> 01:53:45,390
thinking that I don't deserve that kind attention.
认为我不值得那样的关注

2622
01:53:45,390 --> 01:53:47,843
- [Jordan] Yeah. Well, you probably don't.
-[乔丹]是的 嗯 你可能不知道

2623
01:53:47,843 --> 01:53:49,922
- Right, I don't. - But maybe you could.
-对 我不知道 -但也许你可以

2624
01:53:49,922 --> 01:53:53,100
- So it's a burden in that I have to step up
所以这是一个负担 因为我必须站出来

2625
01:53:53,100 --> 01:53:56,157
to be the kind of person that deserves that,
成为那种值得的人

2626
01:53:56,157 --> 01:53:58,260
not deserves that, but in part deserves
不值得 但部分值得

2627
01:53:58,260 --> 01:54:01,320
that kind of attention, and that's like holy shit.
那种关注 就像神圣的狗屎

2628
01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:02,640
- It's crucially important too,
-这也至关重要

2629
01:54:02,640 --> 01:54:05,280
because if someone comes up to you in an airport
因为如果有人在机场向你走来
2630
01:54:05,280 --> 01:54:08,160
and they know who you are and they're brave enough
他们知道你是谁 他们足够勇敢

2631
01:54:08,160 --> 01:54:11,160
to admire you or who you are attempting to be
钦佩你或你想成为的人

2632
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,280
and you make a mistake,
你犯了一个错误

2633
01:54:14,280 --> 01:54:16,830
they will never forget it. - Yeah.
他们永远不会忘记 -是的

2634
01:54:16,830 --> 01:54:19,410
- So it's a high stakes enterprise.
-所以这是一项高风险的事业

2635
01:54:19,410 --> 01:54:23,250
- And the flip side of that, especially with young people,
-另一方面 尤其是对年轻人来说

2636
01:54:23,250 --> 01:54:24,930
a few words you can say can change
你可以说几句话就可以改变

2637
01:54:24,930 --> 01:54:28,230
the direction of their life. - Yeah. One way or another.
他们生活的方向 -是的 不管怎样

2638
01:54:28,230 --> 01:54:29,897
And so I really have to watch this too in airports
所以我真的必须在机场看这个

2639
01:54:29,897 --> 01:54:31,770
'cause I do not like airports.
因为我不喜欢机场

2640
01:54:31,770 --> 01:54:34,342
I do not like the creeping totalitarianism in airports.
我不喜欢机场里蔓延的极权主义

2641
01:54:34,342 --> 01:54:36,390
They've always bothered me. - Yes.
他们总是困扰着我 -是的

2642
01:54:36,390 --> 01:54:38,400
- They really bothered me. - Yes.
-他们真的困扰着我 -是的

2643
01:54:38,400 --> 01:54:40,350
- And I'm an unpleasant travel companion
-我是一个不愉快的旅行伙伴

2644
01:54:40,350 --> 01:54:42,060
for my wife sometimes because of that.
有时因为这个原因 对我妻子来说

2645
01:54:42,060 --> 01:54:43,560
Although I think we've worked that out.
虽然我认为我们已经解决了这个问题

2646
01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:46,470
Thank God 'cause we're doing a lot of traveling,
感谢上帝 因为我们经常旅行

2647
01:54:46,470 --> 01:54:49,214
but most of the security guards
但是大多数保安

2648
01:54:49,214 --> 01:54:52,617
and the border personnel, all those people, they know me.
和边境人员 所有这些人 他们都认识我

2649
01:54:52,617 --> 01:54:55,467
And as a general rule, they're positively predisposed to me.
一般来说 他们对我有明显的倾向

2650
01:54:55,467 --> 01:54:57,700
And so if I'm peevish or irritable
所以如果我易怒或易怒

2651
01:54:59,310 --> 01:55:03,540
then well, that's not good, it's not good.
那就不好了 不好了

2652
01:55:03,540 --> 01:55:05,280
And so that's a tight rope to walk too
所以这也是一条很紧的绳子

2653
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:08,640
because I do not like that creeping totalitarianism,
因为我不喜欢那种蔓延的极权主义

2654
01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:11,501
but by the same token, you know,
但出于同样的原因 你知道

2655
01:55:11,501 --> 01:55:14,523
if you're just one of the crowd, just,
如果你只是人群中的一员

2656
01:55:16,050 --> 01:55:18,390
sometimes you it's good just to be one of the crowd
有时候你只是成为人群中的一员是件好事

2657
01:55:18,390 --> 01:55:19,560
and then you're a little irritable
然后你会有点易怒

2658
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:21,090
and people can just brush that off.
人们可以对此置之不理

2659
01:55:21,090 --> 01:55:26,090
But if you're someone they have dared to open their heart to
但如果你是他们敢于敞开心扉的人

2660
01:55:26,430 --> 01:55:28,080
'cause that's what admiration is,
因为这就是钦佩

2661
01:55:30,343 --> 01:55:32,250
and you betray that,
你背叛了这一点

2662
01:55:32,250 --> 01:55:35,730
then that's a real, they'll never forget it.
那就是真实的 他们永远不会忘记

2663
01:55:35,730 --> 01:55:38,160
And then they'll tell everyone too.
然后他们也会告诉每个人

2664
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:41,160
So it takes a lot of alertness.
所以这需要很大的警觉性

2665
01:55:41,160 --> 01:55:43,380
And so Tammy and I, our life has got complicated
所以塔米和我 我们的生活变得复杂了

2666
01:55:43,380 --> 01:55:45,420
because in Toronto, for example,
因为在多伦多 例如

2667
01:55:45,420 --> 01:55:48,330
we can't really just go for a walk.
我们不能真的只是去散步

2668
01:55:48,330 --> 01:55:50,820
It's always a high drama production,
这总是一个高戏剧制作

2669
01:55:50,820 --> 01:55:52,560
'cause always people come up
因为总是有人上来

2670
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:56,040
and they have some heartrending story to tell.
他们有一些令人心碎的故事要讲

2671
01:55:56,040 --> 01:55:58,020
And I'm not being cynical about that.
我对此并不愤世嫉俗

2672
01:55:58,020 --> 01:56:02,010
- Yes. - It's a hard thing to bear
-是的 -这很难忍受

2673
01:56:02,010 --> 01:56:03,780
because people don't do that.
因为人们不会这样做

2674
01:56:03,780 --> 01:56:05,940
They don't just open themselves up to you like that
他们不会像那样向你敞开心扉

2675
01:56:05,940 --> 01:56:07,740
and share the tragedy of their life.
分享他们生活中的悲剧

2676
01:56:10,620 --> 01:56:12,660
But that's an everyday occurrence.
但这是每天都会发生的事情
2677
01:56:12,660 --> 01:56:14,580
And so when we go up to our cottage,
所以当我们回到我们的小屋

2678
01:56:14,580 --> 01:56:18,180
which is outta the city, it's a relief, you know,
远离城市 这是一种解脱 你知道

2679
01:56:18,180 --> 01:56:23,040
because as wonderful as that is, like it's a weird,
因为尽管这很美好 好像很奇怪

2680
01:56:23,040 --> 01:56:25,350
I have a weird life because everywhere I go,
我的生活很奇怪 因为无论我去哪里

2681
01:56:25,350 --> 01:56:26,640
it's very weird.
这很奇怪

2682
01:56:26,640 --> 01:56:29,160
It's like I'm surrounded by old friends
就像我周围都是老朋友

2683
01:56:29,160 --> 01:56:32,310
because I walk down the street in any city now virtually
因为我现在几乎走在任何城市的街道上

2684
01:56:32,310 --> 01:56:34,470
and people say, "Hello, Dr. Peterson.
人们说 “你好 彼得森博士

2685
01:56:34,470 --> 01:56:35,370
So nice to see you."
很高兴见到你 ”

2686
01:56:35,370 --> 01:56:38,511
Or they say better things than that. Very rarely bad things.
或者他们说比这更好的事情 很少有坏事

2687
01:56:38,511 --> 01:56:42,120
One experience in 5,000, maybe.
也许 5000 次经历中只有一次

2688
01:56:42,120 --> 01:56:42,953
Very rare.
非常罕见
2689
01:56:42,953 --> 01:56:44,940
Although you don't forget those either,
虽然你也不会忘记那些

2690
01:56:44,940 --> 01:56:47,583
but it's very strange.
但这很奇怪

2691
01:56:49,260 --> 01:56:51,540
- And there's an intimacy, they know you well.
-还有一种亲密关系 他们很了解你

2692
01:56:51,540 --> 01:56:55,044
And because they leap into,
因为他们跳入

2693
01:56:55,044 --> 01:56:56,903
they avoid the small talk often.
他们经常避免闲聊

2694
01:56:56,903 --> 01:56:58,770
- Mm-hmm. They leap into familiarity.
-嗯-嗯 他们跳入熟悉

2695
01:56:58,770 --> 01:57:00,930
- It really is like it's an old friend
真的就像是老朋友一样

2696
01:57:00,930 --> 01:57:01,890
and it feels like that.
感觉就像那样

2697
01:57:01,890 --> 01:57:02,730
For me personally,
对我个人来说

2698
01:57:02,730 --> 01:57:07,150
the experience is the goodbye hurts because
这种经历是再见很痛 因为

2699
01:57:09,270 --> 01:57:10,680
there's a sense where you're never gonna
有一种感觉 你永远不会

2700
01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:12,750
see that friend again. - Right.
再见那个朋友 -对

2701
01:57:12,750 --> 01:57:14,540
Yeah. That's a strange thing, eh?
是的 这很奇怪 嗯？

2702
01:57:14,540 --> 01:57:16,623
- So to me, a lot of the,
-所以对我来说 很多

2703
01:57:17,460 --> 01:57:19,710
a lot of it just feels like goodbyes.
很多感觉就像告别

2704
01:57:19,710 --> 01:57:20,543
- Mm-hmm.
-嗯-嗯

2705
01:57:20,543 --> 01:57:22,590
And it is.
的确如此

2706
01:57:22,590 --> 01:57:23,423
You're right about that.
这点你是对的

2707
01:57:23,423 --> 01:57:26,730
And I mean, that's I suppose in some sense
我的意思是 我想在某种意义上

2708
01:57:26,730 --> 01:57:29,066
part of the pain of opening yourself up to people
向别人敞开心扉的痛苦之一

2709
01:57:29,066 --> 01:57:33,090
because they also, Tammy has been struck particularly.
因为他们 塔米也受到了特别的打击

2710
01:57:33,090 --> 01:57:35,460
She said, "I really never knew what men were like."
她说 “我真的从来不知道男人是什么样的 ”

2711
01:57:35,460 --> 01:57:36,960
I said, "Well, what do you mean?"
我说 "嗯 你什么意思？"

2712
01:57:36,960 --> 01:57:41,130
She said, "I cannot believe how polite the men are
她说 "我无法相信这些男人有多有礼貌

2713
01:57:41,130 --> 01:57:42,257
when they come and talk to you."
当他们来和你说话的时候 "

2714
01:57:42,257 --> 01:57:45,630
'Cause it's always the same. The pattern's very similar.
因为总是一样的 模式非常相似

2715
01:57:45,630 --> 01:57:47,220
The person comes up. They're mostly men.
那人走过来 他们大多是男人

2716
01:57:47,220 --> 01:57:49,200
Not always, but mostly.
不总是 但主要是

2717
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:51,750
And they're tentative and they're very polite.
他们是试探性的 他们非常有礼貌

2718
01:57:51,750 --> 01:57:53,580
Very, very polite.
非常非常有礼貌

2719
01:57:53,580 --> 01:57:55,579
And they say, "I hope I'm not bothering you.
他们说 "希望没有打扰到你

2720
01:57:55,579 --> 01:57:57,870
Do you mind that I say..."
你介意我说……”

2721
01:57:57,870 --> 01:57:59,834
They're not bothering me.
他们没有打扰我

2722
01:57:59,834 --> 01:58:02,280
And I'm doing everything I can
我正在尽我所能

2723
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:04,500
to not be the guy who's bothered by that.
不要成为那个为此烦恼的人

2724
01:58:04,500 --> 01:58:05,820
It's like, who do you think you are?
就像 你以为你是谁？

2725
01:58:05,820 --> 01:58:07,560
- Yeah. (laughing) Yes.
-是的 （笑）是的

2726
01:58:07,560 --> 01:58:12,180
- You're the guy that what, is famous and now is above that?
-你是那个什么 出名的人 现在已经超越了那个人？

2727
01:58:12,180 --> 01:58:14,580
- Yeah. - You don't wanna be that guy.
-是的 -你不想成为那个人

2728
01:58:14,580 --> 01:58:16,980
- No. - So you wanna be grateful
-不 -所以你想感恩

2729
01:58:16,980 --> 01:58:20,580
all the time when people open up like that.
当人们像那样敞开心扉的时候

2730
01:58:20,580 --> 01:58:24,390
And so you gotta be alert and on point to do that properly,
所以你必须保持警惕 正确地做这件事

2731
01:58:24,390 --> 01:58:27,960
like right away, 'cause for you, it's five seconds
就像马上 因为对你来说 只有五秒钟

2732
01:58:27,960 --> 01:58:30,180
or 10 seconds or 20 seconds, whatever it is,
或者 10 秒或 20 秒 不管是什么

2733
01:58:30,180 --> 01:58:34,020
but for them they've opened up
但对他们来说 他们已经敞开心扉了

2734
01:58:34,020 --> 01:58:37,560
and so you can really nail them if you're foolish.
所以如果你愚蠢的话 你真的可以抓住他们

2735
01:58:37,560 --> 01:58:40,714
- After the 150 people, how do you come down from that?
-在 150 人之后 你是如何从那里下来的？
2736
01:58:40,714 --> 01:58:44,700
How do you find yourself again?
你如何重新找到自己？

2737
01:58:44,700 --> 01:58:48,180
- Well, that was often when I got caught in Twitter traps,
-嗯 那是我经常陷入推特陷阱的时候

2738
01:58:48,180 --> 01:58:50,520
you know, 'cause I'm so burned out by then
你知道 因为那时我已经筋疲力尽了

2739
01:58:50,520 --> 01:58:55,050
from the talk and the audience interactions
从演讲和观众互动中

2740
01:58:55,050 --> 01:58:58,260
and the whole day, 'cause it's a new city, it's a new hotel.
一整天 因为这是一个新的城市 一个新的酒店

2741
01:58:58,260 --> 01:59:00,840
It's a new 5,000 people.
这是一个新的 5000 人

2742
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:02,310
It's a new book chapter.
这是一个新的书籍章节

2743
01:59:02,310 --> 01:59:04,230
It's a whole new horizon of ideas
这是一个全新的思想视野

2744
01:59:04,230 --> 01:59:06,810
and it's off to another city the next day.
第二天它就去了另一个城市

2745
01:59:06,810 --> 01:59:10,800
I'm so burnt out by then that I'm not as good
到那时我已经筋疲力尽了 我没有那么好

2746
01:59:10,800 --> 01:59:13,317
at controlling my impulses as I might be
控制我的冲动 因为我可能

2747
01:59:13,317 --> 01:59:14,927
and Twitter was a real catastrophe for that
推特是一个真正的灾难

2748
01:59:14,927 --> 01:59:17,550
'cause it would hook me and then I couldn't...
因为它会吸引我 然后我不能…

2749
01:59:17,550 --> 01:59:20,850
Like I used to, when I was working on my book a lot,
就像我以前 当我经常写我的书时

2750
01:59:20,850 --> 01:59:22,050
I used to call Tammy.
我过去常常打电话给塔米

2751
01:59:22,050 --> 01:59:23,820
I'd say, "Look, you have to come and get me.
我会说 “听着 你必须来接我

2752
01:59:23,820 --> 01:59:25,440
I can't stop.
我停不下来

2753
01:59:25,440 --> 01:59:26,310
I can't stop."
我停不下来 ”

2754
01:59:26,310 --> 01:59:27,540
I got tired, eh?
我累了 嗯？

2755
01:59:27,540 --> 01:59:28,980
And then I kind of 'cause it's part
然后我有点 因为这是一部分

2756
01:59:28,980 --> 01:59:31,800
of a kind of hypomanic focus.
一种轻度躁狂的焦点

2757
01:59:31,800 --> 01:59:34,770
I couldn't quit. It's like, oh no, I'm still writing.
我不能放弃 就像 哦 不 我还在写作

2758
01:59:34,770 --> 01:59:37,320
I need to get away from this, but I couldn't stop.
我需要摆脱这个 但我停不下来

2759
01:59:37,320 --> 01:59:40,540
And so it's better to
所以最好

2760
01:59:41,820 --> 01:59:42,933
read something.
读点东西

2761
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:45,030
A book.
一本书

2762
01:59:45,030 --> 01:59:47,490
- Fiction, nonfiction? - Fiction.
-小说 非小说？-小说

2763
01:59:47,490 --> 01:59:48,540
Stephen King.
斯蒂芬·金

2764
01:59:48,540 --> 01:59:49,864
I was reading a lot of Stephen King
我读了很多斯蒂芬·金的书

2765
01:59:49,864 --> 01:59:51,540
when I was on tour last time.
上次我巡回演出的时候

2766
01:59:51,540 --> 01:59:52,470
That was good.
那很好

2767
01:59:52,470 --> 01:59:54,600
I like Stephen King a lot. - So great narratives.
我非常喜欢斯蒂芬·金 -非常棒的叙述

2768
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:56,910
- Great and great characterization.
-非常棒的人物塑造

2769
01:59:56,910 --> 01:59:57,868
You know?
你知道吗？

2770
01:59:57,868 --> 02:00:02,868
And there's a familiarity about Steven King's writing too
史蒂文·金的作品也很熟悉
2771
02:00:02,940 --> 02:00:05,400
that he writes about people you know.
他写的是你认识的人

2772
02:00:05,400 --> 02:00:08,160
And so I really found that a relief
所以我真的觉得这是一种解脱

2773
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:09,919
and so that was useful.
所以这很有用

2774
02:00:09,919 --> 02:00:12,960
And that in order to tolerate this, let's say,
为了容忍这种情况 比方说

2775
02:00:12,960 --> 02:00:14,360
or to be able to sustain it,
或者能够维持它

2776
02:00:15,210 --> 02:00:16,770
well, that's taken a lot of negotiation
嗯 这需要很多谈判

2777
02:00:16,770 --> 02:00:17,910
on the part of Tammy and I,
就塔米和我而言

2778
02:00:17,910 --> 02:00:21,480
because she's dragged into this and you know,
因为她被拖进了这件事 你知道

2779
02:00:21,480 --> 02:00:25,170
her life is part of this, whatever this is.
她的生活是这件事的一部分 不管这是什么

2780
02:00:25,170 --> 02:00:28,154
And she's had to find her way and has.
她必须找到自己的路 并且已经找到了

2781
02:00:28,154 --> 02:00:30,068
For example, now she has a different hotel room
例如 现在她有一个不同的酒店房间

2782
02:00:30,068 --> 02:00:32,430
than me when we travel.
比我们旅行时的我
2783
02:00:32,430 --> 02:00:35,430
And she found that she didn't wanna be on the tour
她发现她不想参加巡演

2784
02:00:35,430 --> 02:00:37,293
this spring and I was ill again for part of it
今年春天 我又病了一部分

2785
02:00:37,293 --> 02:00:39,090
and that made it complicated,
这让事情变得复杂了

2786
02:00:39,090 --> 02:00:42,660
but she went away back home and she came back and she said,
但她回到家 她说

2787
02:00:42,660 --> 02:00:43,657
and she was nervous about it, she said,
她对此很紧张 她说

2788
02:00:43,657 --> 02:00:45,360
"I think I need my own room."
“我想我需要自己的房间 ”

2789
02:00:45,360 --> 02:00:46,833
And part of me was not happy with that.
我的一部分对此不满意

2790
02:00:46,833 --> 02:00:48,570
It's like, what do you mean, you need your,
就像 你是什么意思 你需要你的

2791
02:00:48,570 --> 02:00:50,370
like are we not married anymore?
就像我们不再结婚了吗？

2792
02:00:50,370 --> 02:00:52,380
It's like you need your own room.
就像你需要自己的房间

2793
02:00:52,380 --> 02:00:54,900
And she said, "Well, you know, I can't,"
她说 “嗯 你知道 我不能 ”

2794
02:00:54,900 --> 02:00:57,330
she has to do exercises because she was really sick
她必须锻炼 因为她病得很重

2795
02:00:57,330 --> 02:00:59,880
and she has to keep herself in shape.
她必须保持身材

2796
02:00:59,880 --> 02:01:01,917
And she has to have some time to do that.
她必须有一些时间来做这件事

2797
02:01:01,917 --> 02:01:03,810
And she does a lot of prayer and meditation
她做了很多祈祷和冥想

2798
02:01:03,810 --> 02:01:05,940
and she needs the time and she has her own podcast,
她需要时间 她有自己的播客

2799
02:01:05,940 --> 02:01:08,850
which is going quite well and she needs the time.
进展得很顺利 她需要时间

2800
02:01:08,850 --> 02:01:10,290
And I trust her and she said, "Well,
我信任她 她说 “嗯

2801
02:01:10,290 --> 02:01:12,480
I need this in order to continue."
我需要这个来继续 ”

2802
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:14,280
And I thought, "Well, okay,
我想 “好吧 好吧

2803
02:01:14,280 --> 02:01:17,910
like if you need this in order to continue.
比如如果你需要这个来继续

2804
02:01:17,910 --> 02:01:19,050
Yes."
是的 ”

2805
02:01:19,050 --> 02:01:20,317
'Cause she went away and didn't say,
因为她离开了 没有说

2806
02:01:20,317 --> 02:01:22,590
"Well, I don't want to be on the tour.
“嗯 我不想参加巡演

2807
02:01:22,590 --> 02:01:23,550
I don't wanna do this anymore."
我不想再这样了 ”

2808
02:01:23,550 --> 02:01:25,950
She went way and prayed, let's say,
她走过去祈祷 比方说

2809
02:01:25,950 --> 02:01:28,770
how can I continue to do this?
我怎么能继续这样做？

2810
02:01:28,770 --> 02:01:30,147
And that was the answer.
这就是答案

2811
02:01:30,147 --> 02:01:32,423
And so she has her own hotel room
所以她有自己的酒店房间

2812
02:01:32,423 --> 02:01:36,120
and that was a really good decision on her part.
这对她来说是一个非常好的决定

2813
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:39,720
And she's very good and getting better all the time
她非常好 一直在好转

2814
02:01:39,720 --> 02:01:43,830
at figuring out what has to happen for her
在弄清楚她必须发生什么

2815
02:01:43,830 --> 02:01:45,180
to make this sustainable.
让这变得可持续

2816
02:01:45,180 --> 02:01:47,730
And all that's been is a plus,
所有这些都是加分项

2817
02:01:47,730 --> 02:01:51,030
'cause I don't want to travel without her.
因为我不想不带她去旅行

2818
02:01:51,030 --> 02:01:53,610
And I don't want her life to be miserable
我不希望她的生活很悲惨

2819
02:01:53,610 --> 02:01:55,560
and I want her to be fully on board.
我希望她能全身心投入

2820
02:01:55,560 --> 02:01:58,270
And so she has to be properly selfish
所以她必须适当地自私

2821
02:01:59,340 --> 02:02:00,810
like everyone does in a relationship.
就像恋爱中的每个人一样

2822
02:02:00,810 --> 02:02:02,693
- Yeah, well, and not just that,
-是的 嗯 不仅仅是这样

2823
02:02:02,693 --> 02:02:05,310
this is a weird thing that you're doing
这是你正在做的一件奇怪的事情

2824
02:02:05,310 --> 02:02:08,345
and you have to, both you and her have to figure out
你必须 你和她都必须弄清楚

2825
02:02:08,345 --> 02:02:12,993
how to manage this very intense intellectual social journey.
如何管理这个非常激烈的智力社交之旅

2826
02:02:12,993 --> 02:02:15,174
- Well, there's another element to it too
-嗯 还有另一个元素

2827
02:02:15,174 --> 02:02:16,457
that I didn't tell you about.
我没有告诉你

2828
02:02:16,457 --> 02:02:19,560
So that was a typical day, but it's missing a big component
所以那是典型的一天 但它缺少了一个重要组成部分

2829
02:02:19,560 --> 02:02:22,170
because usually we also have a dinner
因为通常我们也会吃晚饭
2830
02:02:22,170 --> 02:02:26,350
with like 30 cultural representatives, I suppose,
我想大概有 30 个文化代表

2831
02:02:26,350 --> 02:02:28,740
10 to 30 from each country
每个国家 10 到 30 个

2832
02:02:28,740 --> 02:02:32,160
'cause I have a network of people who have networks
因为我有一个关系网 他们有关系网

2833
02:02:32,160 --> 02:02:35,820
who are setting me up with key decision makers
他们给我安排了关键决策者

2834
02:02:35,820 --> 02:02:37,170
in each country.
在每个国家

2835
02:02:37,170 --> 02:02:39,570
And so then we have like an hour and a half of that.
所以我们有一个半小时的时间

2836
02:02:39,570 --> 02:02:42,480
Now sometimes that's on a day when I don't have a talk,
有时我没有演讲

2837
02:02:42,480 --> 02:02:44,910
but sometimes the talks are back to back.
但有时演讲是背靠背的

2838
02:02:44,910 --> 02:02:49,710
And so she also has to manage that and to be gracious,
所以她也必须管理好这一点 表现得亲切

2839
02:02:49,710 --> 02:02:51,720
and then people are showing us exciting things
然后人们向我们展示令人兴奋的东西

2840
02:02:51,720 --> 02:02:53,970
on tours in the cities which is all,
在城市的旅行中 这就是全部

2841
02:02:53,970 --> 02:02:56,400
like it's a surfeit of wonderful.
就像它是美妙的过剩
2842
02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:57,360
- Yes, exactly.
-是的 没错

2843
02:02:57,360 --> 02:03:00,270
But yeah. You have to be there for it.
但是是的 你必须在那里

2844
02:03:00,270 --> 02:03:02,160
You have to be present for it mentally.
你必须在精神上在场

2845
02:03:02,160 --> 02:03:03,500
- Yeah. - As a curious mind,
-是的 -作为一个好奇的头脑

2846
02:03:03,500 --> 02:03:04,926
as an intellectual mind.
作为一个智力头脑

2847
02:03:04,926 --> 02:03:07,860
How do you get to sleep?
你怎么睡觉？

2848
02:03:07,860 --> 02:03:11,880
- Fortunately, that is almost never a problem.
-幸运的是 这几乎从来都不是问题

2849
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:16,880
Even when I was unbelievably ill for about three years,
即使在我难以置信地病了大约三年的时候

2850
02:03:17,250 --> 02:03:18,750
I thought about that a lot too, you know,
我也想了很多 你知道

2851
02:03:18,750 --> 02:03:21,420
that I didn't do a really good job of explaining that
我没有很好地解释这一点

2852
02:03:21,420 --> 02:03:24,810
while I was ill because it appeared in some sense
当我生病的时候 因为它看起来在某种意义上

2853
02:03:24,810 --> 02:03:26,100
that the reason I was ill was
我生病的原因是

2854
02:03:26,100 --> 02:03:28,290
because I was taking benzodiazepines,
因为我服用了苯二氮卓类药物

2855
02:03:28,290 --> 02:03:29,850
but that isn't why.
但这不是原因

2856
02:03:29,850 --> 02:03:32,340
I was ill and then I took them
我病了 然后我吃了它们

2857
02:03:32,340 --> 02:03:35,100
and very low dose and I took that for a long time
非常低的剂量 我吃了很长时间

2858
02:03:35,100 --> 02:03:37,350
and it helped whatever was wrong with me.
它帮助了我的任何问题

2859
02:03:37,350 --> 02:03:39,420
And it looks like it was an allergy
看起来像是过敏

2860
02:03:39,420 --> 02:03:44,420
or maybe multiple allergies and then that stopped working.
或者可能是多重过敏 然后就停止工作了

2861
02:03:44,847 --> 02:03:47,910
And so I took a little bit more for about a month
所以我多吃了一点 大约一个月

2862
02:03:47,910 --> 02:03:48,743
and that made it way worse
这让情况变得更糟

2863
02:03:48,743 --> 02:03:50,910
and so then I cut back a lot,
然后我减少了很多

2864
02:03:50,910 --> 02:03:54,810
and then, then things really got outta hand and so-
然后 事情真的失控了 所以——

2865
02:03:54,810 --> 02:03:56,760
- So there was a deeper thing.
-所以还有更深层次的事情

2866
02:03:56,760 --> 02:03:57,780
- Oh yeah. Definitely. - Then the benzo.
-哦 是的 当然 -然后是苯并

2867
02:03:57,780 --> 02:04:00,278
- Oh yeah. - What can you put words to-
-哦 是的 -你能用什么词来形容——

2868
02:04:00,278 --> 02:04:01,300
- Well, I had a lot of immune...
-嗯 我有很多免疫力…

2869
02:04:01,300 --> 02:04:03,570
Well, my daughter, as everyone knows,
嗯 我女儿 众所周知

2870
02:04:03,570 --> 02:04:06,120
has a very reactive immune system.
有一个非常活跃的免疫系统

2871
02:04:06,120 --> 02:04:09,870
And Tammy has three immunological conditions.
塔米有三种免疫疾病

2872
02:04:09,870 --> 02:04:11,340
Each of them quite serious.
每一种都很严重

2873
02:04:11,340 --> 02:04:14,430
And I had psoriasis and peripheral uveitis,
我有银屑病和外周葡萄膜炎

2874
02:04:14,430 --> 02:04:17,820
which is an autoimmune condition and alopecia areata
这是一种自身免疫性疾病和斑秃

2875
02:04:17,820 --> 02:04:20,460
and chronic gum disease,
和慢性牙龈疾病

2876
02:04:20,460 --> 02:04:23,070
all of which appeared to be allergy related.
所有这些似乎都与过敏有关

2877
02:04:23,070 --> 02:04:25,740
And so Mikhaila seems to have got all of that.
所以米凯拉似乎得到了所有这些

2878
02:04:25,740 --> 02:04:28,500
And so that, and that I think was at the bottom of
所以 我认为这是最底层的

2879
02:04:28,500 --> 02:04:30,630
'cause I also had this proclivity to depression
因为我也有抑郁的倾向

2880
02:04:30,630 --> 02:04:32,910
that was part of my family history.
那是我家族历史的一部分

2881
02:04:32,910 --> 02:04:35,580
But I think that was all immunological as far as I can tell.
但据我所知 我认为这都是免疫学上的

2882
02:04:35,580 --> 02:04:37,860
So one of the things that's happened to me,
所以发生在我身上的一件事

2883
02:04:37,860 --> 02:04:40,530
I always noticed I really couldn't breathe.
我总是注意到我真的无法呼吸

2884
02:04:40,530 --> 02:04:45,213
Like I could breathe about 1/4 as much as I sometimes could.
好像我可以呼吸大约 1/4 的时间

2885
02:04:46,590 --> 02:04:48,510
And so I was always short of breath
所以我总是呼吸急促

2886
02:04:48,510 --> 02:04:51,870
and it looks like what that was perhaps
看起来可能是这样

2887
02:04:51,870 --> 02:04:56,490
was I was always on the border of an anaphylactic reaction,
我总是处于过敏反应的边缘

2888
02:04:56,490 --> 02:04:57,723
which is not pleasant.
这是不愉快的
2889
02:04:58,830 --> 02:05:01,230
And that's hyper sympathetic activation,
这是过度交感神经激活

2890
02:05:01,230 --> 02:05:03,210
no parasympathetic activation.
没有副交感神经激活

2891
02:05:03,210 --> 02:05:05,370
I couldn't relax at all.
我一点也不放松

2892
02:05:05,370 --> 02:05:07,470
- That's a immunological response.
-这是免疫反应

2893
02:05:07,470 --> 02:05:08,913
- Allergic response. Yeah.
-过敏反应 是的

2894
02:05:10,080 --> 02:05:13,050
So anyways, that was what seemed, now this,
不管怎样 这似乎是 现在这个

2895
02:05:13,050 --> 02:05:14,520
I don't like to talk about this much
我不喜欢谈论这么多

2896
02:05:14,520 --> 02:05:15,597
'cause it's so bloody radical and you know,
因为它太激进了 你知道

2897
02:05:15,597 --> 02:05:17,310
I don't like to propagate it,
我不喜欢传播它

2898
02:05:17,310 --> 02:05:19,650
but this diet seems to have stopped all of that.
但是这种饮食似乎阻止了这一切

2899
02:05:19,650 --> 02:05:21,870
I don't have psoriasis. All of the patches have gone.
我没有牛皮癣 所有的补丁都不见了

2900
02:05:21,870 --> 02:05:23,760
- Yeah. - My gum disease,
-是的 -我的牙龈疾病
2901
02:05:23,760 --> 02:05:25,500
which is incurable.
这是无法治愈的

2902
02:05:25,500 --> 02:05:27,270
I had multiple surgeries to deal with it,
我做了多次手术来处理它

2903
02:05:27,270 --> 02:05:29,130
is completely gone.
完全消失了

2904
02:05:29,130 --> 02:05:30,360
Took three years.
花了三年时间

2905
02:05:30,360 --> 02:05:32,250
My right eye, which was quite cloudy.
我的右眼 非常浑浊

2906
02:05:32,250 --> 02:05:33,600
It's cleared up completely.
它完全清除了

2907
02:05:35,880 --> 02:05:36,930
What else has changed?
还有什么变化？

2908
02:05:36,930 --> 02:05:41,130
Well, I lost 50 pounds like instantly and kept it off.
嗯 我立刻减掉了 50 磅 并保持了它

2909
02:05:41,130 --> 02:05:43,688
- Well, I should mention that I, too,
-嗯 我应该提到我也是

2910
02:05:43,688 --> 02:05:47,760
am not a deep investigator of nutritional science.
不是营养学的深度研究者

2911
02:05:47,760 --> 02:05:49,680
I have my skepticism towards the degree
我对这个学位持怀疑态度

2912
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:51,630
to which it is currently a science
它目前是一门科学

2913
02:05:51,630 --> 02:05:53,370
'cause like a lot of complex systems,
因为就像许多复杂的系统一样

2914
02:05:53,370 --> 02:05:58,140
it's full of mystery and full of profiteers,
它充满了神秘和奸商

2915
02:05:58,140 --> 02:06:00,120
people that profit off different kinds of diets.
人们从不同种类的饮食中获利

2916
02:06:00,120 --> 02:06:02,340
But I should say for me personally,
但我个人应该说

2917
02:06:02,340 --> 02:06:05,160
it does seem that I feel by far the best
到目前为止 我似乎感觉最好

2918
02:06:05,160 --> 02:06:06,390
when I eat only meat.
当我只吃肉的时候

2919
02:06:06,390 --> 02:06:07,290
It's very interesting.
这很有趣

2920
02:06:07,290 --> 02:06:08,598
And I discovered that
我发现了

2921
02:06:08,598 --> 02:06:10,050
a long time ago. - It's ridiculous.
很久以前 -太荒谬了

2922
02:06:10,050 --> 02:06:12,270
First of all. - How'd you discover it?
首先 -你是怎么发现的？

2923
02:06:12,270 --> 02:06:15,570
- So the discovery went like this,
-所以发现是这样的

2924
02:06:15,570 --> 02:06:17,970
I started listening to ultra-marathon runners
我开始听超级马拉松跑步者的演讲

2925
02:06:17,970 --> 02:06:20,047
about 15 years ago
大约 15 年前

2926
02:06:20,047 --> 02:06:25,047
and they started talking about fat adapted running.
他们开始谈论脂肪适应跑步

2927
02:06:27,270 --> 02:06:31,140
So I first discovered that I don't have to run super fast
所以我首先发现我不必跑得超级快

2928
02:06:31,140 --> 02:06:32,430
to enjoy running.
享受跑步

2929
02:06:32,430 --> 02:06:35,463
That in fact, I really enjoy running at a slower pace.
事实上 我真的很喜欢以较慢的速度跑步

2930
02:06:36,360 --> 02:06:37,193
So that was like, step one.
这就像 第一步

2931
02:06:37,193 --> 02:06:38,400
I was like, oh, okay.
我想 哦 好吧

2932
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:42,840
If I maintain something called the math rule,
如果我坚持一种叫做数学规则的东西

2933
02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:46,020
which is a pretty low heart rate, if I maintain that,
这是一个相当低的心率 如果我坚持这个

2934
02:06:46,020 --> 02:06:47,261
you can actually get pretty fast
你实际上可以变得相当快

2935
02:06:47,261 --> 02:06:50,730
while maintaining a pretty slow average speed in general.
同时总体上保持相当慢的平均速度

2936
02:06:50,730 --> 02:06:54,933
Anyway, they fuel themselves on low carb diets.
不管怎样 他们用低碳水化合物饮食为自己加油

2937
02:06:55,800 --> 02:06:57,330
So I got into that.
所以我开始了

2938
02:06:57,330 --> 02:07:00,660
On top of that they also fast often.
最重要的是 他们也经常禁食

2939
02:07:00,660 --> 02:07:05,660
So I discovered how incredible my mind feels when fasted,
所以我发现禁食时我的大脑感觉有多不可思议

2940
02:07:05,700 --> 02:07:08,220
you know, people call it intermittent fasting, but-
你知道 人们称之为间歇性禁食 但是——

2941
02:07:08,220 --> 02:07:10,470
- Well, that's an optimization of death, eh,
-嗯 这是对死亡的优化 嗯

2942
02:07:10,470 --> 02:07:15,470
because when you fast your body logically and obviously
因为当你逻辑和明显地禁食你的身体时

2943
02:07:16,110 --> 02:07:18,780
if you think about it biologically is, well,
如果你从生物学角度考虑 嗯

2944
02:07:18,780 --> 02:07:20,584
what does your body scavenge first?
你的身体首先清除什么？

2945
02:07:20,584 --> 02:07:23,073
Well, damaged tissue.
嗯 受损的组织

2946
02:07:24,210 --> 02:07:28,650
So, and I know the literature on fasting to some degree
所以 我在某种程度上了解关于禁食的文献

2947
02:07:28,650 --> 02:07:30,574
and it's very compelling literature.
这是非常引人注目的文献
2948
02:07:30,574 --> 02:07:32,730
If you starve dogs down,
如果你饿死狗

2949
02:07:32,730 --> 02:07:35,100
I think it's 20% below, rats too,
我认为它比 20%低 老鼠也是

2950
02:07:35,100 --> 02:07:38,160
below their optimal body weight they live 30% longer.
低于他们的最佳体重 他们的寿命延长了 30%

2951
02:07:38,160 --> 02:07:40,535
- Yeah. - That's a lot, 30%.
-是的 -那是很多 30%

2952
02:07:40,535 --> 02:07:43,890
Like it's like 30%. Yeah, 30%.
好像是 30% 是的 30%

2953
02:07:43,890 --> 02:07:46,410
- Well, there is aspect to a lot of these things
-嗯 很多事情都有方面

2954
02:07:46,410 --> 02:07:48,810
that make me nervous 'cause I always feel like
这让我紧张 因为我总是觉得

2955
02:07:48,810 --> 02:07:51,570
there's no free lunch, that I'm gonna pay for it somehow,
没有免费的午餐 我会以某种方式为此付出代价

2956
02:07:51,570 --> 02:07:55,980
but there's a focus that I am able to attain when I fast.
但是当我禁食时 我能够集中注意力

2957
02:07:55,980 --> 02:07:57,421
Especially when I eat once a day.
尤其是当我一天吃一次的时候

2958
02:07:57,421 --> 02:08:01,410
My mind is almost like nervously focused.
我的大脑几乎像紧张地集中注意力

2959
02:08:01,410 --> 02:08:03,120
It's almost like an anxiety,
这几乎像一种焦虑
2960
02:08:03,120 --> 02:08:05,340
but a positive one or one that I can channel
但是一个积极的或者一个我可以引导的

2961
02:08:05,340 --> 02:08:07,200
into just like an excitement.
就像兴奋一样

2962
02:08:07,200 --> 02:08:09,180
- You know, I wonder how much of that's associated
-你知道 我想知道这有多少联系

2963
02:08:09,180 --> 02:08:13,980
with, well, imagine that that signifies lack of food,
想象一下 这意味着缺乏食物

2964
02:08:13,980 --> 02:08:16,020
which not that hard to imagine.
这并不难想象

2965
02:08:16,020 --> 02:08:17,880
Well, maybe you should be a lot more alert
嗯 也许你应该更加警惕

2966
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:19,380
in that situation, right? - Yeah.
在这种情况下 对吗？-是的

2967
02:08:19,380 --> 02:08:22,770
- Biologically speaking, because you're in hunting mode,
-从生物学上讲 因为你处于狩猎模式

2968
02:08:22,770 --> 02:08:25,230
let's say, you know, not desperate,
比方说 你知道 不是绝望

2969
02:08:25,230 --> 02:08:26,610
but in hunting mode.
而是在狩猎模式

2970
02:08:26,610 --> 02:08:29,460
And God only knows maybe human beings
上帝只知道也许人类

2971
02:08:29,460 --> 02:08:31,200
should be in hunting mode all the time.
应该一直处于狩猎模式

2972
02:08:31,200 --> 02:08:32,850
- Often, but we don't know that.
-经常 但我们不知道

2973
02:08:32,850 --> 02:08:37,530
So I wonder if it has a stress on the system
所以我想知道它是否对系统有压力

2974
02:08:37,530 --> 02:08:39,900
that long term cause the system to-
长期导致系统——

2975
02:08:39,900 --> 02:08:41,540
- It doesn't look like it. - Okay.
-看起来不像 -好吧

2976
02:08:41,540 --> 02:08:43,680
- It seems, on the case of fasting, not.
-看来 在禁食的情况下 不是

2977
02:08:43,680 --> 02:08:45,030
And then on top of that,
然后最重要的是

2978
02:08:45,030 --> 02:08:47,760
I discovered that the thing I enjoy,
我发现我喜欢的东西

2979
02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:51,413
I just don't enjoy eating fat as much.
我只是不喜欢吃脂肪

2980
02:08:51,413 --> 02:08:54,090
- Mm-hmm. - So I love eating meat.
-嗯-嗯 -所以我喜欢吃肉

2981
02:08:54,090 --> 02:08:55,650
And when you talk about low carb diet,
当你谈论低碳水化合物饮食时

2982
02:08:55,650 --> 02:08:58,020
so I just discovered through that process,
所以我刚刚通过这个过程发现

2983
02:08:58,020 --> 02:09:00,930
if somewhat fatty meat, but just meat,
如果有些脂肪肉 但只是肉

2984
02:09:00,930 --> 02:09:03,960
I just feel a lot of the things
我只是感觉到很多事情

2985
02:09:03,960 --> 02:09:05,550
that make me feel weird about food,
这让我对食物感到奇怪

2986
02:09:05,550 --> 02:09:10,550
like a little groggy or like full or just whatever,
比如有点昏昏沉沉 或者吃饱了 或者别的什么

2987
02:09:11,640 --> 02:09:14,130
the aspects of food that I don't enjoy,
我不喜欢食物的方面

2988
02:09:14,130 --> 02:09:15,570
they're not there with meat.
它们没有肉

2989
02:09:15,570 --> 02:09:18,330
And I'm still able to enjoy company
我仍然能够享受陪伴

2990
02:09:18,330 --> 02:09:22,710
and when I eat once a day and eat meat,
当我每天吃一次肉的时候

2991
02:09:22,710 --> 02:09:24,480
at least in Texas,
至少在德克萨斯州

2992
02:09:24,480 --> 02:09:26,698
you could still have all the merriment of-
你仍然可以享受所有的快乐——

2993
02:09:26,698 --> 02:09:27,531
- [Jordan] Yeah.
-[乔丹]是的

2994
02:09:27,531 --> 02:09:28,830
- You have dinner with friends.
-你和朋友共进晚餐

2995
02:09:28,830 --> 02:09:30,930
Now I don't do the, you know,
现在我不做 你知道

2996
02:09:30,930 --> 02:09:33,970
you have a very serious thing that
你有一件非常严肃的事情

2997
02:09:35,970 --> 02:09:39,480
there's health benefits that you are very serious about.
你非常重视健康益处

2998
02:09:39,480 --> 02:09:41,580
For me, I could still drink whiskey.
对我来说 我仍然可以喝威士忌

2999
02:09:41,580 --> 02:09:45,420
Like I'll still do the things that add a little bit of-
好像我仍然会做一些增加一点——

3000
02:09:45,420 --> 02:09:47,250
- Spice. - Spice into the thing.
-香料 -香料到东西里

3001
02:09:47,250 --> 02:09:48,510
- Yeah. - Now when you completely
-是的 -现在当你完全

3002
02:09:48,510 --> 02:09:51,964
remove the spice, it does become more difficult.
去掉香料 确实变得更加困难

3003
02:09:51,964 --> 02:09:53,790
- Yeah. It's more difficult socially.
-是的 这在社交上更困难

3004
02:09:53,790 --> 02:09:56,580
And Tammy seems to only be able to eat lamb,
塔米似乎只能吃羊肉

3005
02:09:56,580 --> 02:09:58,890
although she might be able to eat non aged beef.
尽管她可能可以吃未老化的牛肉

3006
02:09:58,890 --> 02:10:01,673
And that makes traveling complicated too.
这也让旅行变得复杂
3007
02:10:01,673 --> 02:10:02,506
- Yeah. - Right.
-是的 -没错

3008
02:10:02,506 --> 02:10:04,650
Because, well, for obvious reasons.
因为 嗯 原因很明显

3009
02:10:04,650 --> 02:10:06,650
It's like really that's all you can eat?
就像你真的只能吃这么多？

3010
02:10:08,040 --> 02:10:09,810
Yeah. Well, c'est la vie.
是的 好吧 生活就是这样

3011
02:10:09,810 --> 02:10:12,330
And maybe that's a form of craziness, but-
也许这是一种疯狂 但是——

3012
02:10:12,330 --> 02:10:14,610
- If we can return to actually the thing you were talking
-如果我们能回到你正在谈论的事情

3013
02:10:14,610 --> 02:10:16,980
about when you're thinking about a question
当你在思考一个问题的时候

3014
02:10:16,980 --> 02:10:18,510
before the lecture. - Yeah.
在讲座之前 -是的

3015
02:10:18,510 --> 02:10:20,673
- Let me ask you about thinking in general.
-让我问你一般的思考

3016
02:10:22,890 --> 02:10:25,230
This is something maybe that you and Jim Keller
这可能是你和吉姆·凯勒

3017
02:10:25,230 --> 02:10:27,843
think a lot about is thinking how to think.
经常思考的是如何思考

3018
02:10:29,190 --> 02:10:32,940
How do you think through an idea?
你是如何思考一个想法的？
3019
02:10:32,940 --> 02:10:36,162
- Well, first of all, I think, okay,
-嗯 首先 我想 好吧

3020
02:10:36,162 --> 02:10:38,100
that's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题

3021
02:10:38,100 --> 02:10:40,140
We've tried to work that out with this essay app
我们试着用这个论文应用程序来解决这个问题

3022
02:10:40,140 --> 02:10:41,520
that my son and I have developed,
我儿子和我开发的

3023
02:10:41,520 --> 02:10:43,530
because if you're gonna write, the first question is,
因为如果你要写 第一个问题是

3024
02:10:43,530 --> 02:10:45,090
well, what should I write about?
嗯 我应该写什么？

3025
02:10:45,090 --> 02:10:46,110
- What's the name of the app?
-应用程序叫什么名字？

3026
02:10:46,110 --> 02:10:48,185
- Essay.app. - Mm-hmm.
-Essay.app -嗯哼

3027
02:10:48,185 --> 02:10:53,185
- And well, the first question is, well, what bugs you?
-嗯 第一个问题是 嗯 什么让你烦恼？

3028
02:10:53,580 --> 02:10:54,870
What's bugging you?
什么让你烦恼？

3029
02:10:54,870 --> 02:10:57,813
This is such a cool thing, it's like where is my destiny?
这是一件很酷的事情 就像我的命运在哪里？

3030
02:10:59,250 --> 02:11:00,810
Well, what bothers you?
嗯 什么困扰着你？

3031
02:11:00,810 --> 02:11:02,250
Well, that's where your destiny is.
嗯 这就是你的命运

3032
02:11:02,250 --> 02:11:04,890
Your destiny is to be found in what bothers you.
你的命运在于困扰你的事情

3033
02:11:04,890 --> 02:11:07,380
Why do those things bother you?
这些事情为什么困扰你？

3034
02:11:07,380 --> 02:11:09,090
There's a lot of things you could be bothered by,
有很多事情会困扰你

3035
02:11:09,090 --> 02:11:11,460
like a million things, man.
就像一百万件事 伙计

3036
02:11:11,460 --> 02:11:13,590
But some things grip you.
但是有些事情抓住了你

3037
02:11:13,590 --> 02:11:16,740
They bug you and they might make you resentful and bitter
他们 bug 你 他们可能会让你怨恨和痛苦

3038
02:11:16,740 --> 02:11:17,940
'cause they bug you so much.
因为他们非常 bug 你

3039
02:11:17,940 --> 02:11:20,040
Like they're your things, man.
好像他们是你的东西 伙计

3040
02:11:20,040 --> 02:11:21,232
They've got you.
他们抓住了你

3041
02:11:21,232 --> 02:11:23,519
So then I look for a question
然后我寻找一个问题

3042
02:11:23,519 --> 02:11:25,713
that I would like the answer to,
我想知道答案

3043
02:11:25,713 --> 02:11:29,760
and I would really like the answer to it.
我真的很想知道答案

3044
02:11:29,760 --> 02:11:32,027
So I don't assume I already have the answer
所以我不认为我已经有答案了

3045
02:11:32,027 --> 02:11:35,370
'cause I would actually really like to have the answer.
因为我真的很想知道答案

3046
02:11:35,370 --> 02:11:39,270
So if I could get a better answer, great.
所以如果我能得到一个更好的答案 太好了

3047
02:11:39,270 --> 02:11:41,700
And so that's the first thing and that's like a prayer.
这是第一件事 就像祈祷

3048
02:11:41,700 --> 02:11:45,330
It's like, okay, here's a mystery.
就像 好吧 这是一个谜

3049
02:11:45,330 --> 02:11:49,800
I would like to delve into it further.
我想进一步探究它

3050
02:11:49,800 --> 02:11:51,060
Well, so that's humility.
嗯 这就是谦逊

3051
02:11:51,060 --> 02:11:52,650
It's like here's a mystery.
就像这是一个谜

3052
02:11:52,650 --> 02:11:54,150
Which means I don't know.
这意味着我不知道

3053
02:11:54,150 --> 02:11:55,950
I would like to delve into it further,
我想进一步探究它

3054
02:11:55,950 --> 02:11:58,980
which means I don't know enough already.
这意味着我知道的还不够多

3055
02:11:58,980 --> 02:12:01,890
And then comes the revelation.
然后是启示

3056
02:12:01,890 --> 02:12:04,380
It's like, well, what's a revelation?
就像 嗯 什么是启示？

3057
02:12:04,380 --> 02:12:08,670
Well, if you ask yourself a question, it's a real question.
如果你问自己一个问题 这是一个真正的问题

3058
02:12:08,670 --> 02:12:10,416
Do you get an answer or not?
你有答案吗？

3059
02:12:10,416 --> 02:12:11,730
And the answer is, well, yeah.
答案是 嗯 是的

3060
02:12:11,730 --> 02:12:14,040
Thoughts start to appear in your head.
想法开始出现在你的脑海里

3061
02:12:14,040 --> 02:12:15,240
So- - From somewhere.
所以——从某个地方

3062
02:12:15,240 --> 02:12:16,590
- That's right, from somewhere.
-没错 从某个地方

3063
02:12:16,590 --> 02:12:19,380
- Where do they come from? Do you have a sense?
-它们来自哪里？你有感觉吗？

3064
02:12:19,380 --> 02:12:21,660
- Depends on what you're aiming at.
-取决于你的目标

3065
02:12:21,660 --> 02:12:24,540
- Depends on the question. - No, no.
-取决于问题 -不 不
3066
02:12:24,540 --> 02:12:25,860
It does to some degree.
在某种程度上是的

3067
02:12:25,860 --> 02:12:29,070
It depends on your intent.
这取决于你的意图

3068
02:12:29,070 --> 02:12:32,583
So imagine that your intent is to make things better.
所以想象你的意图是让事情变得更好

3069
02:12:33,960 --> 02:12:36,180
Then maybe they come from the place that's designed
那么也许它们来自设计的地方

3070
02:12:36,180 --> 02:12:37,320
to make things better.
让事情变得更好

3071
02:12:37,320 --> 02:12:39,840
Maybe your intent is to make things worse.
也许你的意图是让事情变得更糟

3072
02:12:39,840 --> 02:12:41,403
Then they come from hell.
然后他们来自地狱

3073
02:12:42,330 --> 02:12:43,440
And you think not really.
你认为不是真的

3074
02:12:43,440 --> 02:12:45,627
It's like you're so sure about that, are you?
好像你对此很确定 是吗？

3075
02:12:45,627 --> 02:12:48,870
- But is your intent conscious? Like are you able-
-但是你的意图有意识吗？就像你能——

3076
02:12:48,870 --> 02:12:51,737
- It's conscious and habitual, right?
-这是有意识和习惯性的 对吗？

3077
02:12:51,737 --> 02:12:54,090
'Cause as you practice something consciously,
因为当你有意识地练习某事时
3078
02:12:54,090 --> 02:12:56,250
it becomes habitual, but it's conscious.
它变成了习惯性 但它是有意识的

3079
02:12:56,250 --> 02:12:59,640
It's like when I sit down before I do a lecture,
就像当我在演讲前坐下来

3080
02:12:59,640 --> 02:13:01,366
I think, okay, what's the goal here?
我想 好吧 这里的目标是什么？

3081
02:13:01,366 --> 02:13:04,200
To do the best job I can.
尽我所能

3082
02:13:04,200 --> 02:13:05,130
To what end?
目的是什么？

3083
02:13:05,130 --> 02:13:08,580
Well, people are coming here not for political issues,
嗯 人们来这里不是为了政治问题

3084
02:13:08,580 --> 02:13:10,170
they're coming here because they're trying to
他们来这里是因为他们试图

3085
02:13:10,170 --> 02:13:11,820
make their lives better.
让他们的生活变得更好

3086
02:13:11,820 --> 02:13:13,050
Okay. So what are we doing?
好吧 那我们在做什么？

3087
02:13:13,050 --> 02:13:14,970
We're conducting a joint investigation
我们正在进行一项联合调查

3088
02:13:14,970 --> 02:13:17,217
into the nature of that which makes life better.
调查让生活变得更好的本质

3089
02:13:17,217 --> 02:13:18,780
Okay, what's my role?
好吧 我的角色是什么？

3090
02:13:18,780 --> 02:13:21,307
To do as good a job about that as possible.
尽可能做好这件事

3091
02:13:21,307 --> 02:13:23,670
What state of mind do I have to be in?
我必须处于什么样的精神状态？

3092
02:13:23,670 --> 02:13:28,350
Am I annoyed about the theater or am I clued in
我是对剧院感到恼火还是我知道了

3093
02:13:28,350 --> 02:13:30,960
and thrilled that 4,000 people have showed up
并为 4000 人的出现而激动不已

3094
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:33,660
at substantial expense and trouble
付出了巨大的代价和麻烦

3095
02:13:33,660 --> 02:13:35,430
to come and listen to me talk.
来听我演讲

3096
02:13:35,430 --> 02:13:37,290
And if I'm not in that state of mind, I think,
如果我没有这种精神状态 我想

3097
02:13:37,290 --> 02:13:39,450
well maybe I need something to eat or maybe I need to talk
嗯 也许我需要吃点东西 或者我需要谈谈

3098
02:13:39,450 --> 02:13:44,450
to someone because in gratitude is no place to start.
因为感恩不是开始的地方

3099
02:13:44,520 --> 02:13:48,240
It's like I should be thrilled to be there obviously.
很明显 我应该很兴奋能在那里

3100
02:13:48,240 --> 02:13:50,310
And so that orientation has to be there.
所以方向必须在那里

3101
02:13:50,310 --> 02:13:51,510
And then is it conscious?
然后是有意识的吗？

3102
02:13:51,510 --> 02:13:52,770
All this is conscious.
所有这些都是有意识的

3103
02:13:52,770 --> 02:13:53,880
What am I serving?
我在服务什么？

3104
02:13:53,880 --> 02:13:55,800
The highest good I can conceptualize.
我能概念化的最高善

3105
02:13:55,800 --> 02:13:56,910
What is that?
那是什么？

3106
02:13:56,910 --> 02:13:57,900
I have some sense,
我有一些感觉

3107
02:13:57,900 --> 02:14:00,240
but I don't know it in the final analysis,
但归根结底我不知道

3108
02:14:00,240 --> 02:14:02,640
which is why the investigation is being conducted.
这就是为什么要进行调查

3109
02:14:02,640 --> 02:14:03,473
Who's doing it?
谁在做这件事？

3110
02:14:03,473 --> 02:14:07,860
Me, whoever I'm communing with and the audience.
我 和我交流的人和观众

3111
02:14:07,860 --> 02:14:09,721
And so I try to get myself
所以我试着让自己

3112
02:14:09,721 --> 02:14:11,574
and I chase everybody away for that.
为此我把每个人都赶走了

3113
02:14:11,574 --> 02:14:13,287
It's like I have to do that by myself.
好像我必须自己做这件事

3114
02:14:13,287 --> 02:14:14,737
- Are you writing stuff down?
-你在写东西吗？

3115
02:14:15,810 --> 02:14:19,350
- Yes, at that point I I just make point notes
-是的 在那一点上 我只是做要点笔记

3116
02:14:19,350 --> 02:14:22,020
and it's usually about maybe 30 notes.
通常大约是 30 个笔记

3117
02:14:22,020 --> 02:14:24,027
But then on stage I never refer to them,
但是在舞台上 我从不参考它们

3118
02:14:24,027 --> 02:14:27,779
and I often don't even use the structure that I laid out.
我甚至经常不使用我设计的结构

3119
02:14:27,779 --> 02:14:29,340
- It's kind of an interesting thing,
-这是一件有趣的事情

3120
02:14:29,340 --> 02:14:31,653
from where do powerful phrases come from?
强大的短语从何而来？

3121
02:14:32,631 --> 02:14:37,631
Do you try to encapsulate an idea into a sentence or two?
你有没有试着把一个想法浓缩成一两句话？

3122
02:14:38,460 --> 02:14:40,442
- Well, when I talk,
-嗯 当我说话的时候

3123
02:14:40,442 --> 02:14:45,033
I've practiced this since consciously, since 1985,
我从 1985 年开始就有意识地练习这个

3124
02:14:46,650 --> 02:14:51,650
I try to feel and see if the words are stepping stones
我试着感受和看看这些话是不是垫脚石
3125
02:14:52,140 --> 02:14:53,613
or foundation stones, right?
或者基石 对吗？

3126
02:14:53,613 --> 02:14:55,290
It's like is this solid?
就像这是固体吗？

3127
02:14:55,290 --> 02:14:57,900
Is this word solid? Is this phrase solid?
这个词是固体的吗？这个短语是固体的吗？

3128
02:14:57,900 --> 02:14:59,250
Is this sentence solid?
这个句子是固体的吗？

3129
02:14:59,250 --> 02:15:03,771
Like it's a real sense of fundamental foundation
就像它是一个真正意义上的基本基础

3130
02:15:03,771 --> 02:15:05,130
under each word.
在每个单词下面

3131
02:15:05,130 --> 02:15:08,250
And I suppose people ask me if I pray,
我想人们问我是否祈祷

3132
02:15:08,250 --> 02:15:11,805
and I would say I pray before every word.
我会说我在每个单词之前祈祷

3133
02:15:11,805 --> 02:15:12,888
- [Lex] Yeah.
-[莱克斯]是的

3134
02:15:14,250 --> 02:15:16,320
- Well, when you're asking questions,
-嗯 当你问问题的时候

3135
02:15:16,320 --> 02:15:19,994
like you're very clear headed
就像你头脑非常清醒

3136
02:15:19,994 --> 02:15:24,994
and present in your ability to ask questions and inquire.
并表现在你提问和询问的能力上

3137
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:27,330
So how do you do that?
那么你是怎么做到的呢？

3138
02:15:27,330 --> 02:15:29,223
- So first of all,
-所以首先

3139
02:15:31,800 --> 02:15:36,580
I'm worried that my mind easily gets trapped
我担心我的大脑很容易被困住

3140
02:15:37,440 --> 02:15:41,883
when I step on a word and I know it's unstable,
当我踩在一个单词上 我知道它不稳定

3141
02:15:43,020 --> 02:15:45,360
you kind of realize that you don't really know
你会意识到你真的不知道

3142
02:15:45,360 --> 02:15:47,880
the definitions of any words you use
你使用的任何单词的定义

3143
02:15:47,880 --> 02:15:51,543
and that can be debilitating.
这可能会让人虚弱

3144
02:15:52,680 --> 02:15:55,170
So I kind of try to be more carefree
所以我试着更无忧无虑

3145
02:15:55,170 --> 02:15:56,613
about the words I use,
关于我使用的单词

3146
02:15:57,570 --> 02:15:59,190
because otherwise you get trapped.
因为否则你会被困住

3147
02:15:59,190 --> 02:16:01,426
- [Jordan] You don't wanna be obsessional.
-[乔丹]你不想强迫性地

3148
02:16:01,426 --> 02:16:04,890
- Like literally my mind halfway through the sentence
-就像我在句子中途的大脑一样

3149
02:16:04,890 --> 02:16:08,670
will think, well, what does the word sentence mean?
会想 嗯 句子这个词是什么意思？

3150
02:16:08,670 --> 02:16:09,660
- [Jordan] Right. Right, right.
-[乔丹]对 对 对

3151
02:16:09,660 --> 02:16:10,908
Well, you know, neurologically-
嗯 你知道 神经学上-

3152
02:16:10,908 --> 02:16:12,660
- And then everything else just explodes.
-然后其他一切都爆炸了

3153
02:16:12,660 --> 02:16:14,730
You're a big picture idea explodes
你是一个大局的想法爆炸了

3154
02:16:14,730 --> 02:16:17,400
and you lost yourself in the minutiae.
你迷失在细节中

3155
02:16:17,400 --> 02:16:21,900
- Well neurologically there's a production center
-嗯 神经学上有一个生产中心

3156
02:16:21,900 --> 02:16:23,730
and an editing center.
和一个编辑中心

3157
02:16:23,730 --> 02:16:27,210
And those can be separately affected by strokes.
它们可以分别受到中风的影响

3158
02:16:27,210 --> 02:16:30,450
And so often when people are writing or talking,
通常 当人们写作或说话时

3159
02:16:30,450 --> 02:16:33,150
they try to activate both at the same time.
他们试图同时激活两者

3160
02:16:33,150 --> 02:16:35,730
And so people will try to write an essay
所以人们会试着写一篇文章

3161
02:16:35,730 --> 02:16:37,530
and get every sentence right in the first draft.
并在初稿中把每句话都写对

3162
02:16:37,530 --> 02:16:39,000
That's a big mistake.
这是一个很大的错误

3163
02:16:39,000 --> 02:16:40,050
And so then you might say, well,
然后你可能会说 嗯

3164
02:16:40,050 --> 02:16:42,840
how can you be careful with your words but carefree?
你怎么能在无忧无虑的情况下小心说话呢？

3165
02:16:42,840 --> 02:16:46,200
And the answer is orient yourself properly, right?
答案是正确定位自己 对吗？

3166
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:48,270
While in the conversation we're having,
在我们进行的对话中

3167
02:16:48,270 --> 02:16:50,070
you have an orientation structure.
你有一个定向结构

3168
02:16:50,070 --> 02:16:52,080
You want to be prepared.
你想做好准备

3169
02:16:52,080 --> 02:16:53,910
You wanna be attentive.
你想要专注

3170
02:16:53,910 --> 02:16:56,370
Then you wanna have an interesting conversation
然后你想要有一个有趣的对话

3171
02:16:56,370 --> 02:16:58,410
and you wanna have the kind of interesting conversation
你想要有那种有趣的对话
3172
02:16:58,410 --> 02:17:01,560
that other people wanna listen to
其他人想听的

3173
02:17:01,560 --> 02:17:04,500
that will be good for them in some manner.
这在某种程度上对他们有好处

3174
02:17:04,500 --> 02:17:06,360
Okay. So that's pretty good frame.
好的 这是一个很好的框架

3175
02:17:06,360 --> 02:17:09,690
And then you kind of scour your heart and you think
然后你仔细检查你的内心 然后你想

3176
02:17:09,690 --> 02:17:10,830
is that really what you want?
这真的是你想要的吗？

3177
02:17:10,830 --> 02:17:12,870
Are you after fame or after notoriety
你是在追求名声还是名声

3178
02:17:12,870 --> 02:17:14,250
or are you after money?
还是在追求金钱？

3179
02:17:14,250 --> 02:17:17,790
I'm not saying any of those things are necessarily bad,
我不是说这些事情都一定是不好的

3180
02:17:17,790 --> 02:17:20,100
but they're not optimal,
但它们不是最佳的

3181
02:17:20,100 --> 02:17:22,860
especially if you're not willing to admit them, right?
尤其是如果你不愿意承认它们 对吗？

3182
02:17:22,860 --> 02:17:24,690
And so they can contaminate you.
所以它们会污染你

3183
02:17:24,690 --> 02:17:26,850
So you want to be decontaminated
所以你想被净化
3184
02:17:26,850 --> 02:17:29,550
so you have the right trip, let's say.
所以你有正确的旅行 比方说

3185
02:17:29,550 --> 02:17:31,637
And so you have to put yourself,
所以你必须把自己

3186
02:17:31,637 --> 02:17:33,150
that's a meditative practice.
这是一种冥想练习

3187
02:17:33,150 --> 02:17:36,660
You have to put yourself in the right receptive position
你必须把自己放在正确的接受位置

3188
02:17:36,660 --> 02:17:40,053
with the right goal in mind, then you can,
有了正确的目标 你就可以

3189
02:17:41,400 --> 02:17:43,380
and I think you can get better and better at this,
我认为你可以在这方面做得越来越好

3190
02:17:43,380 --> 02:17:47,340
then you can trust what's going to happen.
然后你可以相信会发生什么

3191
02:17:47,340 --> 02:17:50,331
You know, so for example, before I came here,
你知道 举个例子 在我来这里之前

3192
02:17:50,331 --> 02:17:52,830
I mean, I presume you have a reason
我是说 我想你有理由

3193
02:17:52,830 --> 02:17:55,830
for doing the podcast with me.
和我一起做播客

3194
02:17:55,830 --> 02:17:56,883
What's the reason?
原因是什么？

3195
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:02,590
- I mean, we wanted to talk for a long time.
-我是说 我们想谈很久了

3196
02:18:02,590 --> 02:18:04,593
- Yeah. - So the reason has evolved.
-是的 -所以原因已经演变了

3197
02:18:07,440 --> 02:18:11,380
One of the reasons is I've listened to you
原因之一是我听了你的话

3198
02:18:12,270 --> 02:18:15,570
for quite a long time so you've become a one way friend.
很长一段时间了 所以你成了一个单向的朋友

3199
02:18:15,570 --> 02:18:17,670
And I have many, one way friends.
我有很多单向的朋友

3200
02:18:17,670 --> 02:18:20,543
Some of my best friends don't even know I exist.
我的一些最好的朋友甚至不知道我的存在

3201
02:18:20,543 --> 02:18:21,376
(Lex laughing)
（莱克斯笑）

3202
02:18:21,376 --> 02:18:24,060
So I'm a big fan of podcast and audio books.
所以我是播客和有声读物的超级粉丝

3203
02:18:24,060 --> 02:18:26,100
Actually, most of my friends are dead.
事实上 我的大多数朋友都死了

3204
02:18:26,100 --> 02:18:28,050
- Yeah, right. (Lex laughing)
-是的 没错 （莱克斯笑）

3205
02:18:28,050 --> 02:18:30,300
- The writers. - The definition of a reader.
-作家 -读者的定义

3206
02:18:30,300 --> 02:18:31,688
- Yeah. (laughing)
-是的 （笑）

3207
02:18:31,688 --> 02:18:34,410
- Guy with a lot of great dead friends.
-有很多死去的好朋友的人

3208
02:18:34,410 --> 02:18:37,020
- So I wanted to meet this one way friend,
-所以我想见见这个单向朋友

3209
02:18:37,020 --> 02:18:39,690
I suppose, and have a conversation.
我想 然后谈谈

3210
02:18:39,690 --> 02:18:42,450
And then there was this kind of puzzle
然后就有了这种困惑

3211
02:18:42,450 --> 02:18:44,070
that I've been longing to solve
我一直渴望解决

3212
02:18:44,070 --> 02:18:46,500
the same reason I went to Ukraine
和我去乌克兰的原因一样

3213
02:18:46,500 --> 02:18:50,520
of asking this question of myself, who am I?
问自己这个问题 我是谁？

3214
02:18:50,520 --> 02:18:53,010
And what was this part of the world?
世界的这一部分是什么？

3215
02:18:53,010 --> 02:18:56,310
What is this thing that happened in the 20th century
20 世纪发生了什么事

3216
02:18:56,310 --> 02:18:59,460
that I lost so much of my family there.
我在那里失去了很多家人

3217
02:18:59,460 --> 02:19:03,600
And I feel so much of my family is defined by that place.
我觉得我的家庭很大程度上是由那个地方定义的

3218
02:19:03,600 --> 02:19:06,900
Now that place includes the Soviet Union.
现在这个地方包括苏联

3219
02:19:06,900 --> 02:19:09,690
It includes Russia and Ukraine.
它包括俄罗斯和乌克兰

3220
02:19:09,690 --> 02:19:11,130
It includes Nazi Germany,
它包括纳粹德国

3221
02:19:11,130 --> 02:19:14,295
includes these big powerful leaders
包括这些强大的领导人

3222
02:19:14,295 --> 02:19:19,295
and huge millions of people that were lost in the beauty,
以及数百万迷失在美丽中的人

3223
02:19:20,910 --> 02:19:22,110
the power of the dream,
梦想的力量

3224
02:19:22,110 --> 02:19:27,110
but where also the torture that was forced onto them
但也包括强加给他们的折磨

3225
02:19:29,250 --> 02:19:33,204
through different governmental institutions.
通过不同的政府机构

3226
02:19:33,204 --> 02:19:36,688
And you are somebody that seemed from some angle
你是一个从某个角度看起来的人

3227
02:19:36,688 --> 02:19:41,688
to also be drawn to try to understand what was that.
也被吸引去试图理解那是什么

3228
02:19:42,150 --> 02:19:44,700
And not in some sort of historical sense,
不是某种历史意义上的

3229
02:19:44,700 --> 02:19:47,370
but in a deeply psychological human sense.
而是一种深刻的人类心理意义上的

3230
02:19:47,370 --> 02:19:49,284
What is that? Will it repeat again?
那是什么？它会再次重复吗？
3231
02:19:49,284 --> 02:19:51,750
In what ways is it repeating again?
它会以什么方式再次重复？

3232
02:19:51,750 --> 02:19:54,197
- And how can we stop it. - And how can we stop it?
-我们如何阻止它 -我们如何阻止它？

3233
02:19:54,197 --> 02:19:55,620
- That's the crucial issue.
-这是关键问题

3234
02:19:55,620 --> 02:20:00,010
- I felt I wanted to, from a very different backgrounds
-我觉得我想 从一个非常不同的背景

3235
02:20:01,980 --> 02:20:04,230
pull at the thread of that curiosity.
抓住这种好奇心的线索

3236
02:20:04,230 --> 02:20:08,610
You know, I'm an engineer, you're a psychologist,
你知道 我是工程师 你是心理学家

3237
02:20:08,610 --> 02:20:13,610
both lost in that curiosity and both wear suits (laughing)
两人都沉浸在这种好奇心中 都穿着西装（笑）

3238
02:20:14,040 --> 02:20:18,720
and a talk with various levels of eloquence (laughing)
和一个口才不同的演讲（笑）

3239
02:20:18,720 --> 02:20:20,020
about sort of
关于某种程度上的

3240
02:20:22,050 --> 02:20:25,030
the shadows that history
历史的阴影

3241
02:20:26,880 --> 02:20:28,590
cast on us.
投在我们身上

3242
02:20:28,590 --> 02:20:30,390
And so that was one.
所以这是一个
3243
02:20:30,390 --> 02:20:31,620
And also the psychology.
还有心理学

3244
02:20:31,620 --> 02:20:33,920
I wanted to be a psychiatrist for a long time.
我想成为一名精神病医生很长时间了

3245
02:20:35,910 --> 02:20:37,660
I was fascinated by the human mind
我被人类的思维迷住了

3246
02:20:38,910 --> 02:20:41,100
until I discovered artificial intelligence,
直到我发现了人工智能

3247
02:20:41,100 --> 02:20:44,220
the fact that I could program and make a robot move.
我可以编程并让机器人移动的事实

3248
02:20:44,220 --> 02:20:47,700
And until I discovered that magic,
直到我发现了这种魔力

3249
02:20:47,700 --> 02:20:50,040
I thought I wanted to understand the human mind
我以为我想了解人类的思维

3250
02:20:50,040 --> 02:20:52,290
by being a psychiatrist, by talking to people
通过成为一名精神病医生 通过与人交谈

3251
02:20:53,160 --> 02:20:54,990
through talk therapy, psychotherapy.
通过谈话治疗 心理治疗

3252
02:20:54,990 --> 02:20:56,730
- So now you've got the best of both worlds
-所以现在你两全其美

3253
02:20:56,730 --> 02:20:59,790
because you get to talk to people and you get build robots.
因为你可以和人们交谈 你可以建造机器人

3254
02:20:59,790 --> 02:21:03,600
- Yeah, I mean, but the dream ultimately is the robot.
-是的 我是说 但梦想最终是机器人

3255
02:21:03,600 --> 02:21:05,880
That I felt like by building the thing
我觉得通过建造这个东西

3256
02:21:05,880 --> 02:21:07,961
can you start to try to understand it.
你能开始试着理解它吗

3257
02:21:07,961 --> 02:21:09,437
I think that's one way. - Yeah, right.
我认为这是一种方法 -是的 没错

3258
02:21:09,437 --> 02:21:12,570
- I mean, we all have different skills of proclivity.
-我是说 我们都有不同的倾向技能

3259
02:21:12,570 --> 02:21:14,860
So like my particular one
就像我特别的一个

3260
02:21:16,890 --> 02:21:17,890
has to do with
与

3261
02:21:20,130 --> 02:21:22,140
I learn by building. - Yeah.
我通过建造来学习 -是的

3262
02:21:22,140 --> 02:21:25,090
- I think through a thing by building it.
-我通过建造来思考一件事

3263
02:21:25,090 --> 02:21:26,520
- Yeah. - And programming
-是的 -还有编程

3264
02:21:26,520 --> 02:21:28,380
is a wonderful thing because it allows you
是一件很棒的事情 因为它可以让你

3265
02:21:28,380 --> 02:21:30,530
to like build a little toy example.
就像做一个小玩具的例子

3266
02:21:30,530 --> 02:21:33,810
So in the same way you can do a little thought experiment,
就像你可以做一个小小的思想实验一样

3267
02:21:33,810 --> 02:21:34,980
programming allows you to create
编程允许你创造

3268
02:21:34,980 --> 02:21:36,300
a thought experiment in action.
一个行动的思想实验

3269
02:21:36,300 --> 02:21:37,902
It can move, it can live, it can-
它可以移动 它可以生活 它可以——

3270
02:21:37,902 --> 02:21:39,300
- Right. - And then you can
-对 -然后你可以

3271
02:21:39,300 --> 02:21:40,230
ask questions of it.
问它的问题

3272
02:21:40,230 --> 02:21:45,063
So all of those, because of my interest in Freud and Jung,
所以所有这些 因为我对弗洛伊德和荣格的兴趣

3273
02:21:46,860 --> 02:21:49,450
you also in different ways
你也以不同的方式

3274
02:21:50,460 --> 02:21:55,460
have delved deeply into humanity,
深入研究了人类

3275
02:21:55,920 --> 02:21:57,659
the human psyche, through the perspective
人类的心理 通过这些心理学家的观点

3276
02:21:57,659 --> 02:22:00,330
of those psychologists.

3277
02:22:00,330 --> 02:22:01,830
So for all those reasons,
所以出于所有这些原因
3278
02:22:01,830 --> 02:22:03,750
I thought our paths should cross.
我认为我们的道路应该交叉

3279
02:22:03,750 --> 02:22:04,650
- Mm-hmm. Yeah.
-嗯-嗯 是的

3280
02:22:04,650 --> 02:22:07,500
Well, so that's quite a frame for a discussion, right?
嗯 这是一个很好的讨论框架 对吧？

3281
02:22:07,500 --> 02:22:08,333
You had all sorts of reasons.
你有各种各样的理由

3282
02:22:08,333 --> 02:22:10,590
And then you think, well,
然后你想 嗯

3283
02:22:10,590 --> 02:22:13,230
are you just letting the conversation go where it will?
你只是让谈话顺其自然吗？

3284
02:22:13,230 --> 02:22:15,360
It's like, well, not exactly.
就像 嗯 不完全是

3285
02:22:15,360 --> 02:22:17,880
You spent all this time.
你花了这么多时间

3286
02:22:17,880 --> 02:22:19,830
It's not like this came about by accident,
这不是偶然的

3287
02:22:19,830 --> 02:22:23,070
this conversation, you spent all this time framing it.
这个对话 你花了这么多时间来构建它

3288
02:22:23,070 --> 02:22:26,820
And so all of that provides the implicit sub structure
所以所有这些都提供了隐含的子结构

3289
02:22:26,820 --> 02:22:28,620
for the play in the conversation.
为了对话中的游戏
3290
02:22:28,620 --> 02:22:31,500
And if you have that implicit, here's another way.
如果你有这种隐含的 还有另一种方法

3291
02:22:31,500 --> 02:22:34,320
This is very much worth knowing is
这是非常值得知道的

3292
02:22:34,320 --> 02:22:36,930
if you get the implicit structure of perception right,
如果你正确理解感知的隐含结构

3293
02:22:36,930 --> 02:22:39,153
everything becomes a game.
一切都变成了游戏

3294
02:22:40,560 --> 02:22:42,300
And not only that, a game you wanna play
不仅如此 一个你想玩的游戏

3295
02:22:42,300 --> 02:22:44,100
and maybe in the final analysis,
也许归根结底

3296
02:22:44,100 --> 02:22:45,873
a game you'd wanna play forever.
一个你想永远玩下去的游戏

3297
02:22:47,070 --> 02:22:52,070
So, you know, that's obviously a distant beckoning ideal,
所以 你知道 这显然是一个遥远的召唤理想

3298
02:22:52,230 --> 02:22:55,413
but we know the games need rules.
但我们知道游戏需要规则

3299
02:22:56,580 --> 02:22:58,350
Or there's no play.
或者没有游戏

3300
02:22:58,350 --> 02:23:00,310
- Is there advice you can give
-你能给我一些建议吗

3301
02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:05,100
now that we know the frame to give to me, Lex,
现在我们知道要给我的框架了 莱克斯

3302
02:23:05,100 --> 02:23:09,600
about how to do this podcast better?
关于如何把这个播客做得更好？

3303
02:23:09,600 --> 02:23:10,433
How to
如何

3304
02:23:14,100 --> 02:23:18,000
think about this world?
思考这个世界？

3305
02:23:18,000 --> 02:23:19,953
How to be a good engineer?
如何成为一名优秀的工程师？

3306
02:23:20,970 --> 02:23:24,330
how to be a good human being?
如何成为一个好人？

3307
02:23:24,330 --> 02:23:26,820
From what you know. - Take your preoccupation
从你所知道的 -把你的全神贯注

3308
02:23:26,820 --> 02:23:28,263
with suffering seriously.
认真对待痛苦

3309
02:23:29,370 --> 02:23:30,933
It's a serious business.
这是一件严肃的事情

3310
02:23:33,390 --> 02:23:34,223
Right?
对吗？

3311
02:23:34,223 --> 02:23:36,660
And that's part of that, to circle back to the beginning,
这是其中的一部分 回到开始

3312
02:23:36,660 --> 02:23:40,140
let's say, that's that willingness to gaze into the abyss,
比方说 这就是凝视深渊的意愿

3313
02:23:40,140 --> 02:23:41,580
which is obviously what you were doing
这显然是你正在做的

3314
02:23:41,580 --> 02:23:43,470
when you went to Ukraine.
当你去乌克兰的时候

3315
02:23:43,470 --> 02:23:48,470
It's like it's gazing into the abyss that makes you better.
就像凝视深渊让你变得更好

3316
02:23:48,480 --> 02:23:52,140
The thing is, and this is maybe where Nietzsche's ideas,
问题是 这可能是尼采的想法

3317
02:23:52,140 --> 02:23:55,173
not as differentiated as it became,
不像它变得那么与众不同

3318
02:23:57,750 --> 02:24:00,900
sometimes your gaze can be forcefully directed
有时候你的目光会被强行引导

3319
02:24:00,900 --> 02:24:02,790
towards the abyss.
走向深渊

3320
02:24:02,790 --> 02:24:04,950
And then you're traumatized.
然后你会受到创伤

3321
02:24:04,950 --> 02:24:08,163
If it's involuntary and accidental, it can kill you.
如果它是无意的和偶然的 它会杀了你

3322
02:24:09,150 --> 02:24:10,623
The more it's voluntary,
它越是自愿的

3323
02:24:12,720 --> 02:24:14,880
the more transformative it is.
它就越有变革性

3324
02:24:14,880 --> 02:24:18,210
And that's part of that idea about facing death in hell.
这是在地狱面对死亡的想法的一部分

3325
02:24:18,210 --> 02:24:21,300
It's like can you tolerate death in hell?
就像你能容忍在地狱中死亡吗？

3326
02:24:21,300 --> 02:24:26,300
And the answer is, this terrible answer is yes.
答案是 这个可怕的答案是肯定的

3327
02:24:26,580 --> 02:24:31,560
To the degree that you're willing to do it voluntarily.
直到你愿意自愿去做

3328
02:24:31,560 --> 02:24:33,360
And then you might ask, well,
然后你可能会问 嗯

3329
02:24:33,360 --> 02:24:37,320
why should I have to subject myself to death in hell?
为什么我必须让自己死在地狱里？

3330
02:24:37,320 --> 02:24:38,970
I'm innocent.
我是无辜的

3331
02:24:38,970 --> 02:24:40,750
And then the answer to that is
然后答案是

3332
02:24:44,910 --> 02:24:47,910
even the innocent must be voluntarily sacrificed
即使是无辜者也必须自愿牺牲

3333
02:24:47,910 --> 02:24:48,910
to the highest good.
为了最高的利益

3334
02:24:51,521 --> 02:24:54,360
(Lex inhales and exhales deeply)
（莱克斯深深地吸气和呼气）

3335
02:24:54,360 --> 02:24:56,410
- That's such an interesting distinction.
-这是一个非常有趣的区别

3336
02:24:58,710 --> 02:25:01,320
Voluntary suffering. - Voluntary. Yeah.
自愿的痛苦 -自愿的 是的
3337
02:25:01,320 --> 02:25:03,990
Yeah, well, that's why the central Christian doctrine
是的 这就是为什么基督教的核心教义

3338
02:25:03,990 --> 02:25:06,993
is pick up your cross and follow me.
拿起你的十字架 跟着我

3339
02:25:08,460 --> 02:25:11,760
And I'm speaking, not in religious terms saying that.
我说的 不是用宗教术语说的

3340
02:25:11,760 --> 02:25:13,560
I'm just speaking as a psychologist.
我只是作为心理学家说话

3341
02:25:13,560 --> 02:25:15,360
It's like one of the things we've learned
这就像我们学到的一件事

3342
02:25:15,360 --> 02:25:19,320
in the last 100 years is voluntary exposure to that
在过去的 100 年里 自愿接触到这种情况

3343
02:25:19,320 --> 02:25:21,824
which freezes and terrifies you
这让你冻结和恐惧

3344
02:25:21,824 --> 02:25:25,263
in measured proportions is curative.
在一定程度上是有疗效的

3345
02:25:26,670 --> 02:25:31,620
- So a form of, at least in part involuntary sufferings,
-所以一种形式 至少部分是非自愿的痛苦

3346
02:25:31,620 --> 02:25:32,523
depression,
抑郁症

3347
02:25:35,010 --> 02:25:38,913
do you have advice for people on how to find a way out?
你对人们如何找到出路有什么建议吗？

3348
02:25:40,350 --> 02:25:43,530
You're a man who has suffered in this way,
你是一个以这种方式受苦的人
3349
02:25:43,530 --> 02:25:46,017
perhaps continue to suffer in this way.
也许会继续以这种方式受苦

3350
02:25:46,017 --> 02:25:47,493
How do you find a way out?
你如何找到出路？

3351
02:25:51,810 --> 02:25:53,670
- The first thing I do as a clinician
-作为临床医生 我做的第一件事

3352
02:25:53,670 --> 02:25:55,740
if someone comes to me and says they're depressed
如果有人来找我说他们很沮丧

3353
02:25:55,740 --> 02:25:57,393
is ask myself a question.
就是问自己一个问题

3354
02:25:58,470 --> 02:26:00,510
Well, what does this person mean by that?
这个人是什么意思？

3355
02:26:00,510 --> 02:26:02,400
So I have to find out like,
所以我必须找出

3356
02:26:02,400 --> 02:26:03,690
because maybe they're not depressed,
因为也许他们没有抑郁

3357
02:26:03,690 --> 02:26:06,870
maybe they're hyper anxious or maybe they're obsessional.
也许他们极度焦虑 或者他们有强迫症

3358
02:26:06,870 --> 02:26:10,018
Like there's various forms of powerful negative emotion,
就像有各种形式的强大负面情绪

3359
02:26:10,018 --> 02:26:12,390
so they need to be differentiated.
所以他们需要区分

3360
02:26:12,390 --> 02:26:15,120
But then the next question you have to ask is, well,
但是你要问的下一个问题是 嗯

3361
02:26:15,120 --> 02:26:19,320
are you depressed or do you have a terrible life?
你是抑郁还是你的生活很糟糕？

3362
02:26:19,320 --> 02:26:21,870
Or is it some combination of the two?
还是两者兼而有之？

3363
02:26:21,870 --> 02:26:23,373
So if you're depressed,
所以如果你抑郁

3364
02:26:24,510 --> 02:26:27,783
as far as I can tell, you don't have a terrible life.
据我所知 你的生活并不糟糕

3365
02:26:29,130 --> 02:26:30,900
You have friends, you have family,
你有朋友 你有家人

3366
02:26:30,900 --> 02:26:32,190
you have an intimate relationship,
你有亲密的关系

3367
02:26:32,190 --> 02:26:33,690
you have a job or a career,
你有工作或事业

3368
02:26:33,690 --> 02:26:35,400
your about as educated as you should be
你的受教育程度差不多

3369
02:26:35,400 --> 02:26:36,840
given your intelligence,
考虑到你的智力

3370
02:26:36,840 --> 02:26:39,270
you use your time outside of work wisely.
你明智地利用工作之外的时间

3371
02:26:39,270 --> 02:26:42,693
You're not beholden to alcohol or other temptations.
你不受酒精或其他诱惑的影响

3372
02:26:44,160 --> 02:26:47,610
You're engaged in the community in some fundamental sense
你在某种基本意义上参与了社区

3373
02:26:47,610 --> 02:26:49,470
and all that's working.
这一切都很有效

3374
02:26:49,470 --> 02:26:52,620
Now, if you have all that and you're feeling really awful,
现在 如果你有所有这些 你感觉真的很糟糕

3375
02:26:52,620 --> 02:26:54,960
you're either ill or you're depressed.
你要么生病了 要么抑郁了

3376
02:26:54,960 --> 02:26:57,810
And so then sometimes there's a biochemical route
所以有时候会有一个生化途径

3377
02:26:57,810 --> 02:26:59,250
to that treatment of that.
来治疗它

3378
02:26:59,250 --> 02:27:01,170
My experience as being as a clinician
我作为临床医生的经验

3379
02:27:01,170 --> 02:27:03,810
is if you're depressed, but you have a life
如果你抑郁 但你有自己的生活

3380
02:27:03,810 --> 02:27:05,147
and you take an antidepressant,
你服用抗抑郁药

3381
02:27:05,147 --> 02:27:07,817
it will probably help you a lot.
它可能会对你有很大帮助

3382
02:27:07,817 --> 02:27:11,242
Now, maybe you're not depressed exactly.
现在 也许你并不抑郁

3383
02:27:11,242 --> 02:27:13,590
You just have a terrible life.
你只是过着糟糕的生活

3384
02:27:13,590 --> 02:27:14,853
What does that look like?
那看起来像什么？

3385
02:27:16,842 --> 02:27:18,360
You have no relationship.
你没有关系

3386
02:27:18,360 --> 02:27:20,100
Your family's a mess.
你的家庭一团糟

3387
02:27:20,100 --> 02:27:22,710
You've got no friends. You've got no plan.
你没有朋友 你没有计划

3388
02:27:22,710 --> 02:27:24,131
You've got no job.
你没有工作

3389
02:27:24,131 --> 02:27:27,030
You use your time outside of work not only badly,
你不仅不好地利用工作之外的时间

3390
02:27:27,030 --> 02:27:30,570
but destructively, you have a drug or alcohol habit
但破坏性的是 你有吸毒或酗酒的习惯

3391
02:27:30,570 --> 02:27:33,573
or some other vice, pornography addiction.
或者其他恶习 色情成瘾

3392
02:27:34,500 --> 02:27:37,380
You are completely unengaged in the surrounding community.
你完全不参与周围的社区

3393
02:27:37,380 --> 02:27:40,952
You have no scaffolding whatsoever to support you
你没有任何脚手架来支持你

3394
02:27:40,952 --> 02:27:44,460
in your current mode of being or you move forward.
在你目前的存在模式中 或者你继续前进

3395
02:27:44,460 --> 02:27:48,750
And then as a therapist, well, you do two things.
然后作为一名治疗师 你做两件事
3396
02:27:48,750 --> 02:27:51,840
Well, if it's depression per se, well, like I said,
嗯 如果是抑郁症本身 嗯 就像我说的

3397
02:27:51,840 --> 02:27:55,230
there's sometimes a biochemical route, a nutritional route.
有时会有生化途径 营养途径

3398
02:27:55,230 --> 02:27:56,790
There's ways that can be addressed.
有一些方法可以解决

3399
02:27:56,790 --> 02:27:59,700
It's probably physiological, at least in part,
这可能是生理上的 至少部分是

3400
02:27:59,700 --> 02:28:01,950
if you're depressed, but you have an okay life.
如果你抑郁 但你过着美好的生活

3401
02:28:01,950 --> 02:28:03,960
Sometimes it's conceptual.
有时是概念性的

3402
02:28:03,960 --> 02:28:06,630
You can turn to dreams sometimes to help people
有时你可以求助于梦想来帮助人们

3403
02:28:06,630 --> 02:28:09,780
'cause dreams contain the seeds of the potential future.
因为梦想包含潜在未来的种子

3404
02:28:09,780 --> 02:28:12,120
And if your person is a real good dreamer
如果你的人是一个真正的好梦想家

3405
02:28:12,120 --> 02:28:14,550
and you can analyze dreams, that can be really helpful.
你可以分析梦 这真的很有帮助

3406
02:28:14,550 --> 02:28:17,400
But that seems to have only true for more creative people.
但这似乎只适用于更有创造力的人

3407
02:28:17,400 --> 02:28:19,470
And for the people who just have a terrible life,
对于那些生活很糟糕的人来说
3408
02:28:19,470 --> 02:28:22,770
it's like, okay, you have a terrible life.
就像 好吧 你的生活很糟糕

3409
02:28:22,770 --> 02:28:26,820
Well, let's pick a front.
好吧 让我们选择一个前线

3410
02:28:26,820 --> 02:28:30,000
How about you need, how about you need a friend,
你需要怎么样 你需要一个朋友怎么样

3411
02:28:30,000 --> 02:28:32,621
like one sort of friend.
就像一种朋友

3412
02:28:32,621 --> 02:28:36,330
Do you know how to shake hands and introduce yourself?
你知道如何握手和介绍自己吗？

3413
02:28:36,330 --> 02:28:38,820
I'll have the person show me.
我会让那个人给我看

3414
02:28:38,820 --> 02:28:40,440
So let's do it for a sec.
让我们做一会儿

3415
02:28:40,440 --> 02:28:41,273
So.
所以

3416
02:28:42,244 --> 02:28:44,336
It's like this, hi, I'm Jordan.
就像这样 嗨 我是乔丹

3417
02:28:44,336 --> 02:28:46,800
And people don't know how to do that.
人们不知道怎么做

3418
02:28:46,800 --> 02:28:49,110
And then they can't even get the ball rolling.
然后他们甚至不能让球滚动

3419
02:28:49,110 --> 02:28:51,420
For the listener, Jordan just gave me a firm handshake.
对于听众来说 乔丹只是给了我一个有力的握手

3420
02:28:51,420 --> 02:28:54,420
- Yeah. As opposed to a dead fish, you know?
-是的 与死鱼相反 你知道吗？

3421
02:28:54,420 --> 02:28:56,970
And there's these elementary social skills
还有这些基本的社交技能

3422
02:28:56,970 --> 02:28:59,820
that hypothetically, if you were well cared for,
假设 如果你得到很好的照顾

3423
02:28:59,820 --> 02:29:01,680
you learned when you were like three.
你三岁的时候就学会了

3424
02:29:01,680 --> 02:29:03,600
- Yeah. - And sometimes people have,
-是的 -有时候人们会

3425
02:29:03,600 --> 02:29:04,930
I had lots of clients
我有很多客户

3426
02:29:06,390 --> 02:29:09,930
to whom no one ever paid any attention.
从来没有人关注过他们

3427
02:29:09,930 --> 02:29:12,750
And they needed like 10,000 hours of attention.
他们需要一万个小时的关注

3428
02:29:12,750 --> 02:29:14,010
And some of that was just listening
其中一些只是倾听

3429
02:29:14,010 --> 02:29:17,640
'cause they had 10,000 hours of conversations
因为他们有一万个小时的谈话

3430
02:29:17,640 --> 02:29:19,260
they never had with anyone.
他们从来没有和任何人谈过

3431
02:29:19,260 --> 02:29:21,660
And they were all tangled up in their head
他们都在脑子里纠结

3432
02:29:21,660 --> 02:29:24,960
and they had to just, one client in particular
他们只需要 特别是一个客户

3433
02:29:24,960 --> 02:29:28,530
I worked with this person for 15 years.
我和这个人一起工作了 15 年

3434
02:29:28,530 --> 02:29:33,240
And what she wanted from me
她想从我这里得到的

3435
02:29:33,240 --> 02:29:36,420
was for me just to shut the hell up for 50 minutes,
对我来说只是闭嘴 50 分钟

3436
02:29:36,420 --> 02:29:38,040
was very hard for me.
对我来说很难

3437
02:29:38,040 --> 02:29:42,030
And to just tell me what had happened to her
告诉我她发生了什么

3438
02:29:42,030 --> 02:29:44,970
and then what happened at the end of the conversation,
然后在谈话结束时发生了什么

3439
02:29:44,970 --> 02:29:48,090
then I could discuss a bit with her.
然后我可以和她讨论一点

3440
02:29:48,090 --> 02:29:50,310
And then as we progressed through the years,
然后随着我们这些年的进展

3441
02:29:50,310 --> 02:29:53,220
the amount of time that we spent in discussion increased
我们花在讨论上的时间增加了

3442
02:29:53,220 --> 02:29:56,423
in proportion in these sessions until by the time
在这些会议中的比例 直到

3443
02:29:56,423 --> 02:29:58,800
we stopped seeing each other,
我们不再见面

3444
02:29:58,800 --> 02:30:00,843
when my clinical practice collapsed,
当我的临床实践崩溃时

3445
02:30:02,580 --> 02:30:06,360
we were talking about 80% of the time,
我们大约 80%的时间都在谈论

3446
02:30:06,360 --> 02:30:07,500
but she literally,
但她真的

3447
02:30:07,500 --> 02:30:09,990
she'd never been attended to properly ever.
她从来没有得到过适当的照顾

3448
02:30:09,990 --> 02:30:13,620
And so she was an uncarved block in the Taoist sense, right?
所以她是道教意义上的一块未雕刻的积木 对吗？

3449
02:30:13,620 --> 02:30:16,380
She hadn't been subjected to those flaming swords
她没有遭受那些燃烧的剑

3450
02:30:16,380 --> 02:30:19,410
that separated the wheat from the chaff.
这将小麦从谷壳中分离出来

3451
02:30:19,410 --> 02:30:22,283
And so you can do that in therapy.
所以你可以在治疗中这样做

3452
02:30:22,283 --> 02:30:26,190
If you're listening and you're depressed, I would say,
如果你在听 你很沮丧 我会说

3453
02:30:26,190 --> 02:30:28,350
if you can't find a therapist,
如果你找不到治疗师

3454
02:30:28,350 --> 02:30:29,850
and that's getting harder and harder,
这越来越难了
3455
02:30:29,850 --> 02:30:31,817
'cause it's actually become illegal to be a therapist now
因为现在成为治疗师实际上是非法的

3456
02:30:31,817 --> 02:30:34,530
'cause you have to agree with your clients,
因为你必须同意你的客户

3457
02:30:34,530 --> 02:30:37,440
which is a terrible thing to do with them.
这对他们来说是一件可怕的事情

3458
02:30:37,440 --> 02:30:40,710
Just like it's terrible just to arbitrarily oppose them.
就像武断地反对他们一样可怕

3459
02:30:40,710 --> 02:30:44,070
You could do the self authoring program online
你可以在网上做自我创作程序

3460
02:30:44,070 --> 02:30:46,590
'cause it helps you write an autobiography.
因为它有助于你写自传

3461
02:30:46,590 --> 02:30:48,120
And so if you have memories
所以如果你有记忆

3462
02:30:48,120 --> 02:30:49,470
that are more than 18 months old
超过 18 个月的记忆

3463
02:30:49,470 --> 02:30:51,600
that bother you when you think them up,
当你想起来的时候会困扰你

3464
02:30:51,600 --> 02:30:54,330
part of you is locked inside that.
你的一部分被锁在里面

3465
02:30:54,330 --> 02:30:59,330
An undeveloped part of you is still trapped in that,
你未开发的一部分仍然被困在里面

3466
02:30:59,790 --> 02:31:01,620
that's a metaphorical way of thinking about,
这是一种隐喻的思考方式
3467
02:31:01,620 --> 02:31:04,170
that's why it still has emotional significance.
这就是为什么它仍然具有情感意义

3468
02:31:04,170 --> 02:31:06,780
So you can write about your past experiences.
所以你可以写下你过去的经历

3469
02:31:06,780 --> 02:31:08,790
But I would say wait for at least 18 months
但我会说至少等 18 个月

3470
02:31:08,790 --> 02:31:10,500
if something bad has happened to you,
如果你发生了不好的事情

3471
02:31:10,500 --> 02:31:11,790
'cause otherwise you just hurt yourself
因为否则你只会伤害自己

3472
02:31:11,790 --> 02:31:13,203
again by encountering it.
再次遇到它

3473
02:31:14,220 --> 02:31:16,740
You can bring yourself up to date with an autobiography.
你可以通过自传让自己跟上时代

3474
02:31:16,740 --> 02:31:18,960
There's an analysis of faults and virtues.
这是对缺点和优点的分析

3475
02:31:18,960 --> 02:31:20,040
That's the present authoring.
这是目前的创作

3476
02:31:20,040 --> 02:31:23,730
And then there's a guided writing exercise
然后是指导写作练习

3477
02:31:23,730 --> 02:31:25,551
that helps you make a future plan.
这有助于你制定未来的计划

3478
02:31:25,551 --> 02:31:26,930
That's...
那是…

3479
02:31:28,290 --> 02:31:30,450
Young men who do that could go to college,
这样做的年轻人可以上大学

3480
02:31:30,450 --> 02:31:32,490
young men who do that 90 minutes,
这样做 90 分钟的年轻人

3481
02:31:32,490 --> 02:31:34,155
just the future authoring, 90 minutes.
只是未来的创作 90 分钟

3482
02:31:34,155 --> 02:31:37,290
They're 50% less likely to drop out.
他们辍学的可能性降低了 50%

3483
02:31:37,290 --> 02:31:38,880
That's all it takes.
这就是全部

3484
02:31:38,880 --> 02:31:41,130
- So sometimes depression
-所以有时候抑郁

3485
02:31:41,130 --> 02:31:44,460
is this heavy cloud that makes it hard
这是沉重的乌云让它变得困难吗

3486
02:31:44,460 --> 02:31:46,160
to even make a single step towards it?
甚至向它迈出一步？

3487
02:31:46,160 --> 02:31:48,870
Or you said isolate, make a friend.
或者你说孤立 交个朋友

3488
02:31:48,870 --> 02:31:50,700
- Oh man. Sometimes like- - The first step
-哦 伙计 有时候就像——第一步

3489
02:31:50,700 --> 02:31:52,740
is extremely difficult. - Oh my God.
非常困难 -哦 我的上帝

3490
02:31:52,740 --> 02:31:54,513
Sometimes it's way worse than that.
有时候比这更糟糕

3491
02:31:54,513 --> 02:31:57,090
Like I had clients who were so depressed
就像我有客户非常沮丧

3492
02:31:57,090 --> 02:31:59,040
they literally couldn't get out of bed.
他们真的不能下床

3493
02:31:59,940 --> 02:32:01,170
So what's their first step?
那么他们的第一步是什么？

3494
02:32:01,170 --> 02:32:05,910
It's like can you sit up once today?
就像你今天能坐起来一次吗？

3495
02:32:05,910 --> 02:32:06,743
No.
不能

3496
02:32:07,980 --> 02:32:10,620
Can you prop yourself up on your elbows once today?
你今天能用肘部支撑自己一次吗？

3497
02:32:10,620 --> 02:32:14,070
Like you just, you scale back the dragon
就像你一样 你缩小龙的规模

3498
02:32:14,070 --> 02:32:18,120
till you find one that's conquerable that moves you forward.
直到你找到一个可以征服的 推动你前进的

3499
02:32:18,120 --> 02:32:19,920
There's a rubric for life.
生活有一个标题

3500
02:32:19,920 --> 02:32:23,190
Scale back the dragons till you find one conquerable
缩小龙的规模 直到你找到一个可以征服的

3501
02:32:23,190 --> 02:32:25,890
and it'll give you a little bit of goal.
它会给你一点目标
3502
02:32:25,890 --> 02:32:27,300
Commensurate it with the struggle.
与斗争相称

3503
02:32:27,300 --> 02:32:29,100
But the plus side of that,
但好的一面是

3504
02:32:29,100 --> 02:32:31,080
'cause you think that God, that's depressing.
因为你认为上帝 这很令人沮丧

3505
02:32:31,080 --> 02:32:35,430
You mean I have to start by sitting up?
你是说我必须从坐起来开始？

3506
02:32:35,430 --> 02:32:37,710
Well, you do if you can't sit up.
如果你不能坐起来 你就可以

3507
02:32:37,710 --> 02:32:39,360
But the plus side of that is
但好的一面是

3508
02:32:39,360 --> 02:32:44,130
it's the pareto distribution issue is that aggregates,
帕累托分布的问题是聚集

3509
02:32:44,130 --> 02:32:45,870
exponentially increase.
指数级增加

3510
02:32:45,870 --> 02:32:47,970
And failures do too, by the way.
顺便说一句 失败也是如此

3511
02:32:47,970 --> 02:32:50,160
But aggregates exponentially increase.
但是聚集是指数级增加的

3512
02:32:50,160 --> 02:32:51,600
So once you start the ball rolling,
所以一旦你开始滚动

3513
02:32:51,600 --> 02:32:53,370
it can get zipping along pretty good.
它可以很好地向前移动
3514
02:32:53,370 --> 02:32:55,030
This person that I talked about
我谈到的这个人

3515
02:32:56,640 --> 02:32:59,976
was incapable of sitting with me in a cafe
无法和我坐在咖啡馆里

3516
02:32:59,976 --> 02:33:02,100
when we first met, just talking,
当我们第一次见面时 只是聊天

3517
02:33:02,100 --> 02:33:04,200
even though I was her therapist.
尽管我是她的治疗师

3518
02:33:04,200 --> 02:33:07,413
But by the end she was doing standup comedy.
但最后她做了单口相声

3519
02:33:08,280 --> 02:33:10,920
So you know, it took years,
所以你知道 花了几年时间

3520
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:13,895
but still most people won't do standup comedy.
但大多数人仍然不会做单口相声

3521
02:33:13,895 --> 02:33:16,800
That's quite the bloody achievement.
这真是个了不起的成就

3522
02:33:16,800 --> 02:33:19,263
She would read her poetry on stage too.
她也会在舞台上读诗

3523
02:33:20,100 --> 02:33:23,410
So for someone who was petrified into paralysis
所以对于一个被吓成瘫痪的人来说

3524
02:33:23,410 --> 02:33:28,410
by social anxiety and who had to start very small
因为社交焦虑 不得不从很小的地方开始

3525
02:33:29,070 --> 02:33:30,693
is a hell of an accomplishment.
是一个巨大的成就

3526
02:33:31,620 --> 02:33:33,930
- Yeah. It all starts with one step.
-是的 这一切都始于一步

3527
02:33:33,930 --> 02:33:38,184
Do you have advice for young people in high school?
你对高中的年轻人有什么建议吗？

3528
02:33:38,184 --> 02:33:41,340
A lot of people look up to you for advice,
很多人都向你寻求建议

3529
02:33:41,340 --> 02:33:46,340
for strength, for strength to search for themselves,
为了力量 为了寻找自己的力量

3530
02:33:46,410 --> 02:33:48,000
to find themselves.
找到自己

3531
02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:49,713
- Take on some responsibility.
-承担一些责任

3532
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:53,250
Do something for other people.
为别人做些什么

3533
02:33:53,250 --> 02:33:55,384
You're doing something for yourself while you're doing that
当你在做的时候 你在为自己做些什么

3534
02:33:55,384 --> 02:33:57,810
even if you don't know it for sure,
即使你不确定

3535
02:33:57,810 --> 02:34:00,240
'cause you're a community across time.
因为你是一个跨越时间的社区

3536
02:34:00,240 --> 02:34:02,580
Find something to serve.
找到可以服务的东西

3537
02:34:02,580 --> 02:34:04,253
- Somebody to help. - Someone to help.
-有人可以帮助 -有人可以帮助

3538
02:34:04,253 --> 02:34:05,910
- A problem to solve. - A job.
-一个要解决的问题 -一份工作

3539
02:34:05,910 --> 02:34:08,940
Find a job, do your best with the customers.
找一份工作 尽你最大的努力和顾客打交道

3540
02:34:08,940 --> 02:34:10,260
Don't be above your job.
不要凌驾于你的工作之上

3541
02:34:10,260 --> 02:34:12,810
You're gonna get an entry level job when you're a kid.
当你还是个孩子的时候 你会得到一份初级工作

3542
02:34:12,810 --> 02:34:15,510
Well, what else would you want? You wanna be the boss?
你还想要什么？你想成为老板吗？

3543
02:34:15,510 --> 02:34:17,420
What do you know? You don't know anything.
你知道什么？你什么都不知道

3544
02:34:17,420 --> 02:34:20,250
You could be the boss of your job.
你可以成为你工作的老板

3545
02:34:20,250 --> 02:34:22,110
You know, if you're working in a grocery store
你知道 如果你在杂货店工作

3546
02:34:22,110 --> 02:34:23,340
or you're working in a convenience store,
或者你在便利店工作

3547
02:34:23,340 --> 02:34:26,128
assuming you're not working for terrified tyrants,
假设你不是为惊恐的暴君工作

3548
02:34:26,128 --> 02:34:28,710
you can be nice to the customers.
你可以对顾客很好

3549
02:34:28,710 --> 02:34:30,930
You can develop your social skills.
你可以发展你的社交技能

3550
02:34:30,930 --> 02:34:34,140
You can learn how to handle boss/employee relationship.
你可以学习如何处理老板/员工关系

3551
02:34:34,140 --> 02:34:37,342
You can be there 15 minutes early and leave 15 minutes late.
你可以提前 15 分钟到那里 晚 15 分钟离开

3552
02:34:37,342 --> 02:34:40,380
Like you can learn in an entry level job, man.
就像你可以在初级工作中学习一样 伙计

3553
02:34:40,380 --> 02:34:42,930
And I'll tell you, if you take an entry level job
我要告诉你 如果你接受一份初级工作

3554
02:34:42,930 --> 02:34:45,497
and you learn and it's a reasonably decent place,
你学习 这是一个相当体面的地方

3555
02:34:45,497 --> 02:34:48,450
you will not be in an entry level job for long
你不会在初级工作上呆很长时间

3556
02:34:48,450 --> 02:34:50,820
because everyone who's competent is desperate
因为每个有能力的人都绝望了

3557
02:34:50,820 --> 02:34:51,653
for competent people.
对于有能力的人

3558
02:34:51,653 --> 02:34:54,180
And if you go and show yourself as competent,
如果你去展示自己有能力

3559
02:34:54,180 --> 02:34:55,200
they'll be a trial period,
他们将是一个试用期

3560
02:34:55,200 --> 02:34:57,180
but if you go show yourself as competent,
但是如果你去展示自己有能力
3561
02:34:57,180 --> 02:34:58,882
all sorts of doors you didn't even know were there
你甚至不知道那里有各种各样的门

3562
02:34:58,882 --> 02:35:01,080
will start opening like mad.
会像疯了一样开始打开

3563
02:35:01,080 --> 02:35:04,440
- So you strive for competence, for craftsmanship.
-所以你努力争取能力 争取工艺

3564
02:35:04,440 --> 02:35:05,940
- Yeah. Yep, yep.
-是的 是的 是的

3565
02:35:05,940 --> 02:35:07,290
For discipline.
为了纪律

3566
02:35:07,290 --> 02:35:12,120
You know, I mean, I said in one of the chapters in my books
你知道 我是说 我在书中的一章说过

3567
02:35:12,120 --> 02:35:14,190
is focused on putting your house in order.
专注于把你的房子整理好

3568
02:35:14,190 --> 02:35:15,810
It's like, well, how do you start?
就像 嗯 你怎么开始？

3569
02:35:15,810 --> 02:35:16,743
Make your bed.
整理你的床

3570
02:35:18,000 --> 02:35:19,133
You know?
你知道吗？

3571
02:35:19,133 --> 02:35:21,540
It actually took me quite a long time in my life
这实际上花了我相当长的时间

3572
02:35:21,540 --> 02:35:23,580
before I made my bed regularly in the morning,
在我早上整理床铺之前
3573
02:35:23,580 --> 02:35:25,380
most of my life was in pretty good order,
我生活的大部分时间都井井有条

3574
02:35:25,380 --> 02:35:27,690
but that was one thing I didn't have in order.
但那是我没有井井有条的一件事

3575
02:35:27,690 --> 02:35:29,790
My clothes in my closet as well.
我衣柜里的衣服也是

3576
02:35:29,790 --> 02:35:31,380
All that's in order, not all of it.
一切都井井有条 不是全部

3577
02:35:31,380 --> 02:35:33,300
I'm cleaning out some drawers right now,
我现在正在清理一些抽屉

3578
02:35:33,300 --> 02:35:37,980
but look around and see what bugs you in your room.
但是环顾四周 看看你房间里有什么虫子

3579
02:35:37,980 --> 02:35:39,180
Just look.
只是看看

3580
02:35:39,180 --> 02:35:40,950
It's like, okay, I'm in my room.
就像 好吧 我在我的房间里

3581
02:35:40,950 --> 02:35:42,760
Do I like this room? No, it bugs me.
我喜欢这个房间吗？不 它让我很烦

3582
02:35:42,760 --> 02:35:43,723
Okay.
好吧

3583
02:35:43,723 --> 02:35:44,790
Why?
为什么？

3584
02:35:44,790 --> 02:35:46,170
Well, the paint's peeling there
嗯 油漆在那里脱落

3585
02:35:46,170 --> 02:35:49,020
and it's dusty there and the carpet's dirty
那里尘土飞扬 地毯很脏

3586
02:35:49,020 --> 02:35:50,910
and that corner's kind of ugly.
那个角落有点难看

3587
02:35:50,910 --> 02:35:52,380
And the light there isn't very good.
那里的光线不是很好

3588
02:35:52,380 --> 02:35:54,390
And my clothes closet's a mess
我的衣柜一团糟

3589
02:35:54,390 --> 02:35:56,550
so I don't even like to open it.
所以我甚至不喜欢打开它

3590
02:35:56,550 --> 02:35:59,160
Okay. That's a lot of problems.
好吧 这有很多问题

3591
02:35:59,160 --> 02:36:00,360
That sucks.
真糟糕

3592
02:36:00,360 --> 02:36:02,340
That's a lot of opportunity.
这是很多机会

3593
02:36:02,340 --> 02:36:04,320
Pick something and fix it.
挑一些东西并解决它

3594
02:36:04,320 --> 02:36:07,470
- Something that bugs you. - Yeah. But not too much.
-一些让你烦恼的东西 -是的 但不要太多

3595
02:36:07,470 --> 02:36:12,000
So the rule is pick something that you know would make,
所以规则是选择你知道会制造的东西

3596
02:36:12,000 --> 02:36:15,480
pick a problem, pick a solution to it that you know
选择一个问题 选择一个你知道的解决方案

3597
02:36:15,480 --> 02:36:20,480
would help that you could do, that you would do.
会帮助你能做的 你会做的

3598
02:36:20,790 --> 02:36:22,260
So you have to negotiate with yourself.
所以你必须和自己谈判

3599
02:36:22,260 --> 02:36:23,880
It's like, well, I won't clean up this room.
就像 嗯 我不会清理这个房间

3600
02:36:23,880 --> 02:36:24,713
How do you know?
你怎么知道的？

3601
02:36:24,713 --> 02:36:25,800
Well, I've been in here for 10 years
嗯 我在这里已经 10 年了

3602
02:36:25,800 --> 02:36:27,120
and I've never cleaned it up.
我从来没有清理过

3603
02:36:27,120 --> 02:36:29,760
It's like, well obviously that's too big a dragon for you.
就像 很明显 这对你来说太大了

3604
02:36:29,760 --> 02:36:32,370
Would you clean one drawer?
你会清理一个抽屉吗？

3605
02:36:32,370 --> 02:36:33,203
Find out.
找出答案

3606
02:36:34,050 --> 02:36:35,790
And so imagine now you wanna be happy
所以现在想象一下你想要快乐

3607
02:36:35,790 --> 02:36:37,170
when you open that drawer and you think,
当你打开抽屉时 你会想

3608
02:36:37,170 --> 02:36:38,003
well, that's stupid.
嗯 这太愚蠢了

3609
02:36:38,003 --> 02:36:39,600
It's like, is it?
就像 是吗？

3610
02:36:39,600 --> 02:36:41,640
Maybe it's your sock drawer.
也许这是你的袜子抽屉

3611
02:36:41,640 --> 02:36:44,400
Which I cleaned up in my room the other day, by the way.
顺便说一下 前几天我在房间里清理过

3612
02:36:44,400 --> 02:36:46,410
You're gonna open that every morning.
你每天早上都会打开它

3613
02:36:46,410 --> 02:36:48,154
- Yeah. - So that's like 30 seconds
-是的 -所以那就像 30 秒

3614
02:36:48,154 --> 02:36:50,465
of your life every day.
你每天的生活

3615
02:36:50,465 --> 02:36:54,990
Okay. So that's three minutes a week.
好吧 那就是每周三分钟

3616
02:36:54,990 --> 02:36:59,302
That's 12 minutes a month. That's two hours a year.
那就是一个月 12 分钟 那就是一年两个小时

3617
02:36:59,302 --> 02:37:01,110
So maybe your life is made out,
所以也许你的生活是虚构的

3618
02:37:01,110 --> 02:37:03,720
if you've got 16 hours a day, let's figure this out.
如果你一天有 16 个小时 让我们来解决这个问题

3619
02:37:03,720 --> 02:37:08,720
Five, 12 in an hour, 12 in an hour, 144 in 12 hours.
五个 一小时 12 个 一小时 12 个 12 小时 144 个
3620
02:37:09,240 --> 02:37:12,090
Yeah. Let's say 200. 200 five minute chunks.
是的 假设 200 个 200 个五分钟的块

3621
02:37:12,090 --> 02:37:12,923
That's your life.
那是你的生活

3622
02:37:12,923 --> 02:37:15,300
- Ladies and gentlemen, Jordan Peterson did just some math
-女士们先生们 乔丹·彼得森只是做了一些数学计算

3623
02:37:15,300 --> 02:37:17,460
of how many five minute chunks there are in a day.
一天有多少个五分钟的块

3624
02:37:17,460 --> 02:37:19,350
And I'm pretty sure that's pretty accurate.
我很确定这是非常准确的

3625
02:37:19,350 --> 02:37:20,670
- It's approximately right.
-大致正确

3626
02:37:20,670 --> 02:37:23,880
So you got 200 five minute chunks.
所以你有 200 个五分钟的块

3627
02:37:23,880 --> 02:37:26,400
And they repeat, a lot of them repeat.
它们重复 很多重复

3628
02:37:26,400 --> 02:37:28,290
So if you get every one of those right,
所以如果你把每一个都弄对了

3629
02:37:28,290 --> 02:37:29,123
they're trivial, right?
它们很微不足道 对吧？

3630
02:37:29,123 --> 02:37:30,810
Who cares what my sock drawer looks like.
谁在乎我的袜子抽屉是什么样子

3631
02:37:30,810 --> 02:37:32,040
It's there. Fair enough, man.
就在那里 很公平 伙计
3632
02:37:32,040 --> 02:37:33,150
But that's your life.
但那是你的生活

3633
02:37:33,150 --> 02:37:35,370
The things you repeat every day,
你每天重复的事情

3634
02:37:35,370 --> 02:37:36,870
the mundane things.
平凡的事情

3635
02:37:36,870 --> 02:37:39,390
Think I could get all those mundane things right.
我想我可以把所有平凡的事情都做好

3636
02:37:39,390 --> 02:37:40,650
That's the game rules.
这就是游戏规则

3637
02:37:40,650 --> 02:37:43,440
It's like now all the mundane is in place.
就像现在所有平凡的事情都准备好了

3638
02:37:43,440 --> 02:37:45,960
Now you can play 'cause all the mundane's in place.
现在你可以玩了 因为所有平凡的事情都准备好了

3639
02:37:45,960 --> 02:37:47,040
And this is actually true.
这实际上是真的

3640
02:37:47,040 --> 02:37:48,530
So with children,
所以对于孩子

3641
02:37:48,530 --> 02:37:50,749
imagine you want your children to play.
想象你想让你的孩子玩

3642
02:37:50,749 --> 02:37:53,700
Well, play is very fragile neurologically.
嗯 玩耍在神经上非常脆弱

3643
02:37:53,700 --> 02:37:57,390
Any competing motivation or emotion will suppress play.
任何竞争的动机或情绪都会抑制玩耍

3644
02:37:57,390 --> 02:37:59,851
So everything has to be in order.
所以一切都必须井井有条

3645
02:37:59,851 --> 02:38:02,100
Everything has to be a walled garden
一切都必须是一个有围墙的花园

3646
02:38:02,100 --> 02:38:04,140
before the children will play.
在孩子们玩耍之前

3647
02:38:04,140 --> 02:38:06,000
That's a good way of thinking about it.
这是一个很好的思考方式

3648
02:38:06,000 --> 02:38:08,010
So you put everything in order and you think, oh my God,
所以你把一切都整理好 你会想 哦 我的上帝

3649
02:38:08,010 --> 02:38:09,570
now I'm tyrannized by this order.
现在我被这个命令支配了

3650
02:38:09,570 --> 02:38:12,570
It's like, no, you aren't, not if it's voluntary.
就像 不 你不是 如果它是自愿的

3651
02:38:12,570 --> 02:38:15,720
And then the order is the precondition for the freedom.
然后秩序是自由的先决条件

3652
02:38:15,720 --> 02:38:16,710
And so then all of a sudden
然后突然之间

3653
02:38:16,710 --> 02:38:17,970
you get all these things in order.
你把所有这些事情都整理好了

3654
02:38:17,970 --> 02:38:18,934
It's like, oh, look at this.
就像 哦 看看这个

3655
02:38:18,934 --> 02:38:21,630
I've got some room to play here.
我在这里有一些发挥的空间

3656
02:38:21,630 --> 02:38:24,840
And then maybe you're not depressed.
然后也许你就不沮丧了

3657
02:38:24,840 --> 02:38:26,803
Now, it's often not that simple. You know?
现在 事情通常没那么简单 你知道吗？

3658
02:38:26,803 --> 02:38:28,680
Not that that simple.
没那么简单

3659
02:38:28,680 --> 02:38:31,110
Try putting your room in order. Perfect order.
试着把你的房间整理好 完美的秩序

3660
02:38:31,110 --> 02:38:31,943
That's hard, man.
这很难 伙计

3661
02:38:31,943 --> 02:38:33,570
- And it's a really powerful way to think about
-这是一种非常强大的思考方式

3662
02:38:33,570 --> 02:38:34,470
those five minute chunks.
那五分钟的块

3663
02:38:34,470 --> 02:38:36,660
Just get one of them right in a day.
一天内把其中一个弄对

3664
02:38:36,660 --> 02:38:39,420
- Yeah, well, if you do that for 200 days,
-是的 如果你这样做 200 天

3665
02:38:39,420 --> 02:38:40,950
your life is in order. - Yeah.
你的生活井然有序 -是的

3666
02:38:40,950 --> 02:38:44,040
- You know, I thought I did that with my clients a lot.
-你知道 我以为我和我的客户经常这样做

3667
02:38:44,040 --> 02:38:45,570
So a lot of them would come home from work,
所以他们中的许多人会下班回家

3668
02:38:45,570 --> 02:38:48,000
the guys, eh, and their wives would meet them at the door
男人们 嗯 他们的妻子会在门口迎接他们

3669
02:38:48,000 --> 02:38:49,977
and it'd be a fight right away, you know?
这会马上引起一场战斗 你知道吗？

3670
02:38:49,977 --> 02:38:52,500
And it's a clash there 'cause he comes home and he's tired
这是一场冲突 因为他回到家 他累了

3671
02:38:52,500 --> 02:38:54,150
and hungry and he's worked all day
又饿 他工作了一整天

3672
02:38:54,150 --> 02:38:55,770
and he's hoping that, you know,
他希望 你知道

3673
02:38:55,770 --> 02:38:58,050
he gets welcomed when he comes back to the home.
他回家时受到欢迎

3674
02:38:58,050 --> 02:38:59,880
But then the wife is at home
但是妻子在家

3675
02:38:59,880 --> 02:39:01,110
and she's been with the kids all day
她和孩子们呆了一整天

3676
02:39:01,110 --> 02:39:02,070
and she's tired and hungry.
她又累又饿

3677
02:39:02,070 --> 02:39:03,450
And she's hoping that when he comes home,
她希望当他回家时

3678
02:39:03,450 --> 02:39:05,880
he'll show her some appreciation for what's happened today.
他会对今天发生的事情表示感谢
3679
02:39:05,880 --> 02:39:08,280
And then they clash and then they both have problems
然后他们发生冲突 然后他们都有问题

3680
02:39:08,280 --> 02:39:10,560
to discuss 'cause they've had their troubles during the day.
因为他们白天有麻烦

3681
02:39:10,560 --> 02:39:13,230
And so then every time they get together,
所以每次他们聚在一起

3682
02:39:13,230 --> 02:39:16,350
they are not like it's a bit of a fight for 20 minutes.
他们不觉得这是一场 20 分钟的战斗

3683
02:39:16,350 --> 02:39:18,607
And then the whole evening is screwed.
然后整个晚上都搞砸了

3684
02:39:18,607 --> 02:39:21,873
And so then you think, okay, here's the deal.
然后你想 好吧 事情是这样的

3685
02:39:23,100 --> 02:39:25,020
It's knock and the door will open.
敲门 门就会打开

3686
02:39:25,020 --> 02:39:28,920
Okay, you get to pick what happens when you come home,
好吧 你可以选择回家后会发生什么

3687
02:39:28,920 --> 02:39:30,240
but you have to figure out what it is.
但你必须弄清楚它是什么

3688
02:39:30,240 --> 02:39:31,605
So now this is the deal.
所以现在这就是交易

3689
02:39:31,605 --> 02:39:33,900
You treat yourself properly.
你好好对待自己

3690
02:39:33,900 --> 02:39:35,340
You imagine coming home
你想象回家
3691
02:39:35,340 --> 02:39:38,610
and it goes the way you want and need it to go.
它按照你想要和需要的方式进行

3692
02:39:38,610 --> 02:39:41,430
Okay, what does that look like?
好吧 那看起来像什么？

3693
02:39:41,430 --> 02:39:44,130
You get to have it, but you have to know what it is.
你可以拥有它 但你必须知道它是什么

3694
02:39:44,130 --> 02:39:45,240
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？

3695
02:39:45,240 --> 02:39:48,060
And you think, okay, I want to come home.
你想 好吧 我想回家

3696
02:39:48,060 --> 02:39:50,040
I want to be happy about coming home.
我想对回家感到高兴

3697
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:53,610
I come home. I open the door.
我回到家 我打开门

3698
02:39:53,610 --> 02:39:56,070
I say, "Hello, honey. I'm home."
我说 “你好 亲爱的 我回来了 ”

3699
02:39:56,070 --> 02:39:58,770
My wife says, "Hi! It's so nice to hear your voice."
我妻子说 “嗨！很高兴听到你的声音 ”

3700
02:39:58,770 --> 02:40:02,460
She comes up. She says, "Hi, dear."
她走过来 她说 “嗨 亲爱的 ”

3701
02:40:02,460 --> 02:40:05,130
She gives you a hug. She says, "How is your day?"
她拥抱了你 她说 “你今天过得怎么样？”

3702
02:40:05,130 --> 02:40:07,410
And you say, "Well, we'll sit and talk about that."
你说 “好吧 我们坐下来谈谈这个 ”

3703
02:40:07,410 --> 02:40:08,700
How is your day?
你今天过得怎么样？

3704
02:40:08,700 --> 02:40:10,530
Well, we'll sit and talk about that.
好吧 我们坐下来谈谈这个

3705
02:40:10,530 --> 02:40:12,750
Do you need something to eat?
你需要吃点什么吗？

3706
02:40:12,750 --> 02:40:13,901
Probably.
可能吧

3707
02:40:13,901 --> 02:40:16,260
Let's go sit and talk about our day.
让我们坐下来谈谈我们的一天

3708
02:40:16,260 --> 02:40:18,180
It's like that sounds pretty good.
听起来不错

3709
02:40:18,180 --> 02:40:19,200
Okay.
好吧

3710
02:40:19,200 --> 02:40:20,040
That sounds pretty good.
听起来不错

3711
02:40:20,040 --> 02:40:21,990
Might not be perfect, but sounds a hell of a lot better
可能不完美 但听起来好多了

3712
02:40:21,990 --> 02:40:23,220
than what we're doing now.
比我们现在做的要好得多

3713
02:40:23,220 --> 02:40:26,250
So how about we go talk to,
所以不如我们去谈谈

3714
02:40:26,250 --> 02:40:27,690
we'll go talk to your wife.
我们去和你妻子谈谈

3715
02:40:27,690 --> 02:40:29,310
He'll say, okay.
他会说 好吧

3716
02:40:29,310 --> 02:40:31,050
This is what's happening when I come home,
这就是我回家后发生的事情

3717
02:40:31,050 --> 02:40:32,412
I would like it to be better.
我希望它变得更好

3718
02:40:32,412 --> 02:40:34,360
What would you like to have happen
你希望发生什么

3719
02:40:35,460 --> 02:40:37,260
if you could have what you wanted?
如果你能得到你想要的？

3720
02:40:37,260 --> 02:40:39,510
And so she sits down and she thinks, okay,
所以她坐下来想 好吧

3721
02:40:39,510 --> 02:40:41,520
if he comes home, what do I want to have happen?
如果他回家了 我想发生什么？

3722
02:40:41,520 --> 02:40:44,220
And then now you got two visions and you say,
现在你有两个愿景 你说

3723
02:40:44,220 --> 02:40:45,210
well, what would you like?
好吧 你想要什么？

3724
02:40:45,210 --> 02:40:46,470
And you listen.
你听着

3725
02:40:46,470 --> 02:40:48,747
And she says, what would you like?
她说 你想要什么？

3726
02:40:48,747 --> 02:40:50,253
And you tell her, and then you think,
你告诉她 然后你想

3727
02:40:50,253 --> 02:40:53,310
okay now can we bring these visions together
好吧 现在我们能把这些愿景放在一起吗

3728
02:40:53,310 --> 02:40:55,620
so not only do we both get what we want,
所以我们不仅得到了我们想要的

3729
02:40:55,620 --> 02:40:57,060
but because we've brought them together,
还因为我们把他们聚集在一起

3730
02:40:57,060 --> 02:40:58,620
we even get more than we want.
我们甚至得到了比我们想要的更多的东西

3731
02:40:58,620 --> 02:40:59,970
Well, who wouldn't agree to that?
好吧 谁不同意呢？

3732
02:40:59,970 --> 02:41:01,890
Unless they were aiming down.
除非他们瞄准目标

3733
02:41:01,890 --> 02:41:04,320
And that's so exciting, it's not a compromise.
这太令人兴奋了 这不是妥协

3734
02:41:04,320 --> 02:41:08,400
It's a union of ideals that even makes a better ideal.
这是一个理想的结合 甚至可以创造一个更好的理想

3735
02:41:08,400 --> 02:41:09,480
And then you get to come home.
然后你可以回家

3736
02:41:09,480 --> 02:41:12,120
And then there's another rule that goes along with that,
还有另一条规则与之相伴

3737
02:41:12,120 --> 02:41:15,730
which is please dear, have the grace
那就是请亲爱的 有恩典
3738
02:41:16,710 --> 02:41:20,580
to allow me to do this stupidly and badly while I learn.
允许我在学习的时候愚蠢而糟糕地做这件事

3739
02:41:20,580 --> 02:41:23,190
at least 20 times. - Yeah.
至少 20 次 -是的

3740
02:41:23,190 --> 02:41:25,950
- And I'll give you the same leeway
-我会给你同样的回旋余地

3741
02:41:25,950 --> 02:41:28,950
and then we'll practice stupidly for 20 times
然后我们会愚蠢地练习 20 次

3742
02:41:28,950 --> 02:41:32,010
and we'll talk about it and then maybe we'll get it right
我们会谈论它 然后也许我们会把它做好

3743
02:41:32,010 --> 02:41:34,170
for the next 10,000 times.
在接下来的 10,000 次

3744
02:41:34,170 --> 02:41:35,497
- Yeah. - Right?
-是的 -对吗？

3745
02:41:35,497 --> 02:41:37,890
And you can do that with your whole life
你可以一辈子都这样做

3746
02:41:37,890 --> 02:41:39,150
and you can do that with your kids
你可以对你的孩子这样做

3747
02:41:39,150 --> 02:41:40,890
and you can do that with your family.
你可以对你的家人这样做

3748
02:41:40,890 --> 02:41:42,540
Like it's not easy, but you can do.
好像这不容易 但你可以做到

3749
02:41:42,540 --> 02:41:44,670
It's a lot easier than the alternative.
这比其他选择容易得多
3750
02:41:44,670 --> 02:41:47,580
- Let me ask for some dating advice from Jordan Peterson.
-让我向乔丹·彼得森寻求一些约会建议

3751
02:41:47,580 --> 02:41:52,161
How do you find, on that topic, the love of your life?
在这个话题上 你如何找到你一生的挚爱？

3752
02:41:52,161 --> 02:41:54,014
- That's a good question.
-这是个好问题

3753
02:41:54,014 --> 02:41:58,050
I was asked that multiple times on my tour.
在我的旅行中 我被问了很多次

3754
02:41:58,050 --> 02:41:59,580
Three times in a row in fact,
事实上 连续三次

3755
02:41:59,580 --> 02:42:02,973
'cause we ask people to use this Slido gadget.
因为我们要求人们使用这个 Slido 小玩意

3756
02:42:03,900 --> 02:42:06,060
- That's a popular question? - Very!
-这是一个受欢迎的问题？-非常受欢迎！

3757
02:42:06,060 --> 02:42:07,260
It always came up to the top
它总是出现在顶部

3758
02:42:07,260 --> 02:42:10,260
and I got asked that three times in a row
我连续被问了三次

3759
02:42:10,260 --> 02:42:11,730
and I didn't have a good answer.
我没有一个好的答案

3760
02:42:11,730 --> 02:42:16,380
And then I thought, why don't I have a good answer?
然后我想 为什么我没有一个好的答案？

3761
02:42:16,380 --> 02:42:17,910
I thought, oh, I know why
我想 哦 我知道为什么

3762
02:42:17,910 --> 02:42:19,577
'cause that's a stupid question.
因为这是一个愚蠢的问题

3763
02:42:19,577 --> 02:42:22,438
(Lex laughing)
（莱克斯笑了）

3764
02:42:22,438 --> 02:42:24,120
So why? - Yeah.
那为什么？-是的

3765
02:42:24,120 --> 02:42:25,410
- Why?
-为什么？

3766
02:42:25,410 --> 02:42:27,930
Because it's putting the cart before the horse.
因为这是本末倒置

3767
02:42:27,930 --> 02:42:29,253
Here's the right question.
这是正确的问题

3768
02:42:31,290 --> 02:42:33,543
How do I make myself into the perfect date?
我如何让自己成为完美的约会对象？

3769
02:42:34,830 --> 02:42:37,860
You answer that question and you will not have any problem
你回答这个问题 你不会有任何问题

3770
02:42:37,860 --> 02:42:39,150
answering the previous question.
回答前一个问题

3771
02:42:39,150 --> 02:42:42,843
It's like what I want in a partner. Mm mm.
这就像我想要一个伴侣 嗯嗯

3772
02:42:43,724 --> 02:42:46,290
If I offered everything I could to a partner,
如果我把我能提供的一切都给一个伴侣

3773
02:42:46,290 --> 02:42:47,940
who would I be?
我会是谁？

3774
02:42:47,940 --> 02:42:49,140
You work on that.
你在努力

3775
02:42:49,140 --> 02:42:52,620
Ask that question, just ask, just ask yourself. Okay.
问这个问题 问 问自己 好吧

3776
02:42:52,620 --> 02:42:57,573
I have to be the person that women would want.
我必须成为女人想要的人

3777
02:42:58,920 --> 02:43:00,513
Hmm. Okay. What do they want?
嗯 好吧 他们想要什么？

3778
02:43:02,580 --> 02:43:03,810
Clean.
干净

3779
02:43:03,810 --> 02:43:05,343
That's not a bad start.
这是一个不错的开始

3780
02:43:07,800 --> 02:43:09,753
Reasonably good physical shape.
合理的好身材

3781
02:43:11,310 --> 02:43:12,393
So healthy,
如此健康

3782
02:43:14,550 --> 02:43:18,183
productive, generous, honest,
富有成效 慷慨 诚实

3783
02:43:19,860 --> 02:43:21,630
willing to delay gratification.
愿意推迟满足

3784
02:43:21,630 --> 02:43:22,830
So you dance with a woman.
所以你和一个女人跳舞

3785
02:43:22,830 --> 02:43:23,730
It's like what's she doing?
就像她在做什么？

3786
02:43:23,730 --> 02:43:24,750
What are you two doing?
你们两个在做什么？

3787
02:43:24,750 --> 02:43:26,103
Well, it's a patterned,
嗯 这是一个模式

3788
02:43:26,103 --> 02:43:28,050
there's patterns happening around you.
你周围发生了模式

3789
02:43:28,050 --> 02:43:29,460
That's the music, patterns.
这就是音乐 模式

3790
02:43:29,460 --> 02:43:31,770
Patterns of being, that's the music.
存在的模式 这就是音乐

3791
02:43:31,770 --> 02:43:33,570
Now, can you align yourself with the patterns
现在 你能把自己和模式联系起来吗

3792
02:43:33,570 --> 02:43:35,190
of being gracefully?
优雅吗？

3793
02:43:35,190 --> 02:43:36,908
That's what she's checking out.
这就是她在检查的

3794
02:43:36,908 --> 02:43:40,383
And then can you do that with her?
然后你能和她一起做吗？

3795
02:43:41,490 --> 02:43:44,934
And then can you do that in a playful and attentive manner
然后你能以顽皮和专注的方式做到这一点

3796
02:43:44,934 --> 02:43:47,250
and keep your bloody hands to yourself
把你血淋淋的手放在自己身上
3797
02:43:47,250 --> 02:43:48,633
for at least a minute?
至少一分钟？

3798
02:43:49,620 --> 02:43:52,890
And so can you dance in a playful manner?
所以你能以顽皮的方式跳舞吗？

3799
02:43:52,890 --> 02:43:55,260
It's like you can go through this in your imagination
就像你可以在想象中经历这些

3800
02:43:55,260 --> 02:43:58,020
and you know, you'll know, you know?
你知道 你会知道的 你知道吗？

3801
02:43:58,020 --> 02:44:00,330
And then you think, well, how far am I from those things?
然后你会想 嗯 我离这些还有多远？

3802
02:44:00,330 --> 02:44:01,800
And the answer is usually, man,
答案通常是 伙计

3803
02:44:01,800 --> 02:44:06,630
it's a pretty horrible abyss separating you from that ideal.
这是一个非常可怕的深渊 将你与理想隔开

3804
02:44:06,630 --> 02:44:09,580
But the harder you work on
但是你越努力

3805
02:44:10,470 --> 02:44:14,190
offering other people what they need and want,
为其他人提供他们需要和想要的东西

3806
02:44:14,190 --> 02:44:17,040
the more people will line up to play with you.
就会有越多的人排队和你一起玩

3807
02:44:17,040 --> 02:44:18,390
And so it's the wrong question.
所以这是一个错误的问题

3808
02:44:18,390 --> 02:44:21,420
It's like how can I be the best partner possible?
就像我怎样才能成为最好的搭档？
3809
02:44:21,420 --> 02:44:22,830
And then you think, well, if I do that,
然后你会想 好吧 如果我这么做

3810
02:44:22,830 --> 02:44:24,758
people will just take advantage of me.
人们会利用我

3811
02:44:24,758 --> 02:44:29,220
And that's the non naive objection, right?
这不是天真的反对意见 对吗？

3812
02:44:29,220 --> 02:44:30,960
Because the naive persons think, well, I'll be good
因为天真的人认为 好吧 我会很好

3813
02:44:30,960 --> 02:44:31,980
and everyone will treat me right.
每个人都会对我好

3814
02:44:31,980 --> 02:44:34,950
It's like the cynic says, no, I'll be good
就像愤世嫉俗者说 不 我会很好

3815
02:44:34,950 --> 02:44:38,370
and someone will take me out.
有人会带我出去

3816
02:44:38,370 --> 02:44:39,630
And then you think, well,
然后你想 嗯

3817
02:44:39,630 --> 02:44:42,120
what do you do about that objection?
你会怎么处理这个反对意见？

3818
02:44:42,120 --> 02:44:45,750
And the answer is, well, you factor that in.
答案是 嗯 你把它考虑进去

3819
02:44:45,750 --> 02:44:47,520
And that's why you're supposed to be,
这就是为什么你应该是

3820
02:44:47,520 --> 02:44:48,840
what is it?
它是什么？

3821
02:44:48,840 --> 02:44:51,360
As soft as a dove and as wise as a serpent.
像鸽子一样柔软 像蛇一样聪明

3822
02:44:51,360 --> 02:44:54,390
It's like, I know you're full of snakes.
就像 我知道你充满了蛇

3823
02:44:54,390 --> 02:44:55,800
I know it.
我知道

3824
02:44:55,800 --> 02:45:00,542
Maybe I know it more than you do, but we'll play anyways.
也许我比你更知道 但我们还是会玩

3825
02:45:00,542 --> 02:45:03,690
- Take the risk anyway. - That's right. Voluntarily.
-无论如何都要冒险 -没错 自愿的

3826
02:45:03,690 --> 02:45:05,143
Right?
对吗？

3827
02:45:05,143 --> 02:45:07,542
And what's so cool about that is that even though
这很酷的是 即使

3828
02:45:07,542 --> 02:45:10,530
the person you're dealing with is full of snakes,
你面对的人充满了蛇

3829
02:45:10,530 --> 02:45:14,400
if you offer your hand in trust and it's real,
如果你信任地伸出你的手 这是真的

3830
02:45:14,400 --> 02:45:16,440
you will evoke the best in them.
你会唤起他们最好的一面

3831
02:45:16,440 --> 02:45:17,610
- Yeah. - And that's true
-是的 -这是真的

3832
02:45:17,610 --> 02:45:22,290
even I've dealt with people who are pretty damn criminal
甚至我也和非常该死的罪犯打交道

3833
02:45:22,290 --> 02:45:27,290
and pretty psychopathic and sometimes dangerously so.
非常精神变态 有时非常危险

3834
02:45:28,230 --> 02:45:30,240
And you tread very lightly
你走得很轻

3835
02:45:30,240 --> 02:45:31,740
when you're dealing with someone like that,
当你和这样的人打交道时

3836
02:45:31,740 --> 02:45:34,020
especially if they're intoxicated.
尤其是当他们喝醉的时候

3837
02:45:34,020 --> 02:45:39,020
And even then your best bet is
即使这样 你最好的选择是

3838
02:45:39,450 --> 02:45:42,926
that alert trust.
警觉的信任

3839
02:45:42,926 --> 02:45:45,933
It's the only, in fact, that the only thing I know that,
这是唯一的 事实上 我唯一知道的

3840
02:45:47,214 --> 02:45:49,170
I had one client who was a paranoid,
我有一个客户是偏执狂

3841
02:45:49,170 --> 02:45:51,270
he was paranoid psychopath.
他是个偏执的精神病患者

3842
02:45:51,270 --> 02:45:53,100
That's a bad combination.
这是个糟糕的组合

3843
02:45:53,100 --> 02:45:54,510
He was a bad guy, man.
他是个坏人 伙计

3844
02:45:54,510 --> 02:45:58,050
He had like four restraining orders on him
他有四个限制令

3845
02:45:58,050 --> 02:45:59,400
and restraining orders don't work
限制令不起作用

3846
02:45:59,400 --> 02:46:02,940
on the sort of people that you put restraining orders on.
对你发布限制令的那种人

3847
02:46:02,940 --> 02:46:06,120
And he used to be harassed now and then by, you know,
他曾经时不时地被骚扰 你知道

3848
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:10,170
a bureaucrat in a bank with delusions of power.
一个有权力错觉的银行官僚

3849
02:46:10,170 --> 02:46:13,230
And he would say to them, he used to kind of act this out
他会对他们说 他过去常常这样做

3850
02:46:13,230 --> 02:46:15,663
to me when I was talking to him, he'd say,
当我和他说话的时候 他会对我说

3851
02:46:17,257 --> 02:46:19,207
"I'm going to be your worst nightmare."
“我将成为你最可怕的噩梦 ”

3852
02:46:20,400 --> 02:46:22,140
And he meant it. - Yeah.
他是认真的 -是的

3853
02:46:22,140 --> 02:46:23,540
- And he would do it.
-他会这么做

3854
02:46:23,540 --> 02:46:27,690
He had this obsessional psychopathic vengeance
他有这种强迫性精神病复仇

3855
02:46:27,690 --> 02:46:31,500
that was just like right there, paranoid to the hilt.
就像在那里 偏执到刀柄
3856
02:46:31,500 --> 02:46:34,140
And paranoid people are hyper acute.
偏执的人非常敏锐

3857
02:46:34,140 --> 02:46:35,190
So they're watching you
所以他们在监视你

3858
02:46:35,190 --> 02:46:39,630
for any sign of deceit or manipulation.
寻找任何欺骗或操纵的迹象

3859
02:46:39,630 --> 02:46:41,553
And they're really good at it.
他们真的很擅长

3860
02:46:41,553 --> 02:46:44,460
'cause like they're 100% focus, that's what paranoid is.
因为他们 100%专注 这就是偏执狂

3861
02:46:44,460 --> 02:46:47,070
It's 100% focus on that.
100%专注于此

3862
02:46:47,070 --> 02:46:49,860
And even under those circumstances,
即使在这种情况下

3863
02:46:49,860 --> 02:46:52,113
if you step carefully enough,
如果你走得足够小心

3864
02:46:54,480 --> 02:46:57,210
maybe you can avoid the ax.
也许你可以避开斧头

3865
02:46:57,210 --> 02:46:58,140
That's a good thing to know
这是一件好事

3866
02:46:58,140 --> 02:47:00,243
if you ever meet someone truly dangerous.
如果你遇到真正危险的人

3867
02:47:01,620 --> 02:47:02,730
- Absolutely.
-绝对的
3868
02:47:02,730 --> 02:47:06,660
I believe in that, that being fragile, nevertheless,
我相信这一点 尽管如此 脆弱

3869
02:47:06,660 --> 02:47:09,120
taking that leap of trust towards another person,
对另一个人信任的飞跃

3870
02:47:09,120 --> 02:47:10,230
even when they're dangerous,
即使他们很危险

3871
02:47:10,230 --> 02:47:13,950
especially when they're dangerous, if you care,
尤其是当他们很危险的时候 如果你在乎的话

3872
02:47:13,950 --> 02:47:18,420
if there's something there in those hills you wanna find,
如果你想在那些山里找到什么

3873
02:47:18,420 --> 02:47:20,640
then that's probably the only way
那这可能是唯一的方法

3874
02:47:20,640 --> 02:47:22,958
you're gonna find it is taking that risk.
你会发现它在冒这个险

3875
02:47:22,958 --> 02:47:27,958
I have to ask you about "Gulag Archipelago" by Solzhenitsyn
我必须问你索尔仁尼琴的《古拉格群岛》

3876
02:47:28,950 --> 02:47:30,390
that speak to this very point.
这就说明了这一点

3877
02:47:30,390 --> 02:47:31,830
There's so many layers that this book,
这本书有很多层次

3878
02:47:31,830 --> 02:47:34,050
we could talk about it forever.
我们可以永远谈论它

3879
02:47:34,050 --> 02:47:37,601
I'm sure in many ways we are talking about it forever,
我相信在很多方面我们会永远谈论它

3880
02:47:37,601 --> 02:47:41,220
but there is sort of one of the themes captured
但是有一个主题被抓住了

3881
02:47:41,220 --> 02:47:43,290
in a few ways that was described to the book
在书中描述的几个方面

3882
02:47:43,290 --> 02:47:45,300
is that line between good and evil
是善与恶之间的界限

3883
02:47:45,300 --> 02:47:48,570
that runs through every human being.
贯穿每个人

3884
02:47:48,570 --> 02:47:52,860
As he writes, "The line dividing good and evil
正如他所写 “善与恶的界限

3885
02:47:52,860 --> 02:47:55,470
cuts through the heart of every human being.
穿过每个人的心

3886
02:47:55,470 --> 02:47:59,790
During the life of any heart this line keeps changing place;
在任何一颗心的生命中 这条线都在不断改变位置；

3887
02:47:59,790 --> 02:48:03,600
sometimes it is squeezed one way to exuberant evil
有时它被挤压成一种方式 走向旺盛的邪恶

3888
02:48:03,600 --> 02:48:06,180
and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space
有时它会转移以留出足够的空间

3889
02:48:06,180 --> 02:48:07,770
for good to flourish.
让善蓬勃发展

3890
02:48:07,770 --> 02:48:10,920
One and the same human being is, at various ages,
同一个人 在不同的年龄

3891
02:48:10,920 --> 02:48:12,362
under various circumstances,
在不同的情况下

3892
02:48:12,362 --> 02:48:14,713
a totally different human being.
是一个完全不同的人

3893
02:48:14,713 --> 02:48:17,640
At times he is close to being a devil,
有时他几乎是一个魔鬼

3894
02:48:17,640 --> 02:48:20,070
at times to sainthood.
有时是圣徒

3895
02:48:20,070 --> 02:48:22,140
But his name doesn't change,
但他的名字没有改变

3896
02:48:22,140 --> 02:48:26,520
and to that name we ascribe the whole lot, good and evil."
我们把所有的善恶都归因于这个名字 ”

3897
02:48:26,520 --> 02:48:27,750
What do you think about this line?
你对这条线有什么看法？

3898
02:48:27,750 --> 02:48:30,270
What do you think about this thing where we talked about
你对我们谈论过的这件事有什么看法

3899
02:48:30,270 --> 02:48:31,830
if you give somebody a chance,
如果你给某人一个机会

3900
02:48:31,830 --> 02:48:33,513
you actually bring out the best in them.
你实际上激发了他们最好的一面

3901
02:48:33,513 --> 02:48:35,891
What do you think about this other aspect
你对另一个方面有什么看法

3902
02:48:35,891 --> 02:48:40,891
that throughout time that line shifts inside each person
随着时间的推移 这条线在每个人内心都在变化

3903
02:48:41,670 --> 02:48:43,552
and you get to define that shift?
你可以定义这种变化吗？

3904
02:48:43,552 --> 02:48:45,960
What do you think about this line?
你对这条线有什么看法？

3905
02:48:45,960 --> 02:48:47,613
Are we all capable of evil?
我们都有能力作恶吗？

3906
02:48:48,720 --> 02:48:50,460
- Well, you know, the cosmic drama,
-嗯 你知道 宇宙戏剧

3907
02:48:50,460 --> 02:48:53,580
that's Satan versus Christ.
那是撒旦对基督

3908
02:48:53,580 --> 02:48:56,883
It's like, well, who's that about if it's not about you?
就像 嗯 如果不是关于你 那是关于谁的？

3909
02:48:59,066 --> 02:49:03,150
I'm speaking just as a psychologist or as a literary critic,
我只是以心理学家或文学评论家的身份说话

3910
02:49:03,150 --> 02:49:04,350
those are characters.
这些是角色

3911
02:49:04,350 --> 02:49:05,853
At least they're that.
至少他们是

3912
02:49:06,690 --> 02:49:09,030
Well, are they human characters?
嗯 他们是人类角色吗？

3913
02:49:09,030 --> 02:49:10,710
Well, obviously
嗯 很明显

3914
02:49:10,710 --> 02:49:12,873
Well, are they archetypal human characters?
嗯 他们是原型人类角色吗？
3915
02:49:13,800 --> 02:49:18,006
Yes. What does that mean cosmically and ontologically?
是的 这在宇宙和本体论上意味着什么？

3916
02:49:18,006 --> 02:49:19,050
I don't know.
我不知道

3917
02:49:19,050 --> 02:49:21,123
Is the world is story?
世界是故事吗？

3918
02:49:22,530 --> 02:49:23,363
Maybe.
也许吧

3919
02:49:23,363 --> 02:49:24,690
- [Lex] But the way stories are often told
-[莱克斯]但是故事经常被讲述的方式

3920
02:49:24,690 --> 02:49:26,503
is the characters embody a stable-
角色体现了一个稳定的——

3921
02:49:26,503 --> 02:49:28,227
- Yeah, I know.
-是的 我知道

3922
02:49:28,227 --> 02:49:30,420
Not great literature though.
不过不是伟大的文学

3923
02:49:30,420 --> 02:49:32,220
It's very rare in great literature.
这在伟大的文学中非常罕见

3924
02:49:32,220 --> 02:49:33,960
What you have in great literature generally
你在伟大的文学中通常拥有的

3925
02:49:33,960 --> 02:49:36,259
is the internal drama, right?
是内心的戏剧 对吗？

3926
02:49:36,259 --> 02:49:40,710
As the literature becomes more pop, I would say,
随着文学变得越来越流行 我会说
3927
02:49:40,710 --> 02:49:42,960
the characters are more unitary
人物更加单一

3928
02:49:42,960 --> 02:49:44,910
so there's a real bad guy and he's all bad
所以有一个真正的坏人 他全是坏人

3929
02:49:44,910 --> 02:49:47,373
and there's a real good guy and he's all good.
还有一个真正的好人 他全是好人

3930
02:49:47,373 --> 02:49:49,680
And that's not as interesting.
这就没那么有趣了

3931
02:49:49,680 --> 02:49:51,285
It's not as sophisticated.
它没有那么复杂

3932
02:49:51,285 --> 02:49:53,499
When you reach Dostoevsky in heights
当你达到陀思妥耶夫斯基的高度时

3933
02:49:53,499 --> 02:49:56,733
in literary representation or Shakespearean heights,
在文学表现或莎士比亚的高度

3934
02:49:58,470 --> 02:50:00,813
you can identify with the villain.
你可以认同恶棍

3935
02:50:01,920 --> 02:50:03,738
And that's when literature
这就是文学

3936
02:50:03,738 --> 02:50:06,510
really reaches its pinnacle in some sense.
在某种意义上真正达到顶峰的时候

3937
02:50:06,510 --> 02:50:08,730
- And also the characters change throughout.
——角色也会自始至终地变化

3938
02:50:08,730 --> 02:50:10,980
They shift throughout, they're unpredictable throughout.
他们自始至终都在变化 他们自始至终都不可预测

3939
02:50:10,980 --> 02:50:14,580
I'm taking the speaking of Russia more seriously recently.
我最近更认真地对待俄罗斯的演讲

3940
02:50:14,580 --> 02:50:17,220
And I've gotten to talk to translators of Dostoevsky
我已经和陀思妥耶夫斯基的翻译谈过了

3941
02:50:17,220 --> 02:50:18,430
and Tolstoy and
托尔斯泰和

3942
02:50:20,180 --> 02:50:22,200
Czechov and those kinds of folks,
捷克夫和那些人

3943
02:50:22,200 --> 02:50:26,010
and one of the mistakes that translators made
翻译犯的一个错误是

3944
02:50:26,010 --> 02:50:28,380
with the Dostoevsky for the longest time
陀思妥耶夫斯基最长的时间

3945
02:50:28,380 --> 02:50:33,300
is they would quote, unquote, fix the chaotic mess
他们会引用 取消引用 解决混乱的混乱

3946
02:50:33,300 --> 02:50:37,080
that is Dostoevsky because there was a sense
这是陀思妥耶夫斯基 因为有一种感觉

3947
02:50:37,080 --> 02:50:39,990
like he was too rushed in his writing.
好像他在写作中太匆忙了

3948
02:50:39,990 --> 02:50:41,730
It seemed like there was tangents
似乎有切线

3949
02:50:41,730 --> 02:50:43,620
that had nothing to do with anything.
这与任何事情都无关

3950
02:50:43,620 --> 02:50:46,620
The characters were unpredictable and inconsistent.
角色不可预测且不一致

3951
02:50:46,620 --> 02:50:49,500
There's parts of phrases that seemed to be incomplete,
有些短语似乎不完整

3952
02:50:49,500 --> 02:50:50,550
that kind of stuff.
诸如此类的东西

3953
02:50:50,550 --> 02:50:52,320
And what they realize that is,
他们意识到的是

3954
02:50:52,320 --> 02:50:55,290
that's not, that's actually crafted that way.
不是 实际上是这样制作的

3955
02:50:55,290 --> 02:50:58,620
It's not, you know, it's like editing James Joyce,
这不是 你知道 这就像编辑詹姆斯·乔伊斯

3956
02:50:58,620 --> 02:51:00,060
like "Finnegans Wake" or something
就像“芬尼根守灵”什么的

3957
02:51:00,060 --> 02:51:01,800
because it doesn't make any sense.
因为它没有任何意义

3958
02:51:01,800 --> 02:51:03,780
They realize that that is the magic of it,
他们意识到这就是它的魔力

3959
02:51:03,780 --> 02:51:06,000
that captures the humanity of these characters,
这抓住了这些角色的人性

3960
02:51:06,000 --> 02:51:08,820
that they are unpredictable, they change throughout time.
他们是不可预测的 他们随着时间的推移而变化

3961
02:51:08,820 --> 02:51:11,250
There's a bunch of contradictions.
有很多矛盾

3962
02:51:11,250 --> 02:51:12,600
On which point I gotta ask,
关于这一点 我必须问

3963
02:51:12,600 --> 02:51:15,300
is there a case to be made that "Brothers Karamazov"
有没有理由证明《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》

3964
02:51:15,300 --> 02:51:17,043
is the greatest book ever written?
是有史以来最伟大的书？

3965
02:51:18,000 --> 02:51:20,220
- Yeah. There is a case to be made for that.
-是的 有理由这样做

3966
02:51:20,220 --> 02:51:23,070
I don't know. Is it better than "Crime and Punishment"?
我不知道 它比《罪与罚》好吗？

3967
02:51:23,070 --> 02:51:24,900
- Yes. Yeah. - You think so?
-是的 是的 -你这么认为？

3968
02:51:24,900 --> 02:51:26,790
Why do you, I'm not arguing with it.
你为什么 我不反对

3969
02:51:26,790 --> 02:51:28,147
Why do you think that?
你为什么会这么想？

3970
02:51:28,147 --> 02:51:30,450
- Well, every book is a personal...
-嗯 每本书都是个人的…

3971
02:51:30,450 --> 02:51:32,790
Some of my best friends are inside that book.
我的一些最好的朋友在那本书里

3972
02:51:32,790 --> 02:51:34,290
- [Jordan] Yeah. It's an amazing book.
-[·乔丹]是的 这是一本了不起的书

3973
02:51:34,290 --> 02:51:35,151
There's no doubt about it.
这是毫无疑问的
3974
02:51:35,151 --> 02:51:38,670
- I think some books
我觉得有些书

3975
02:51:38,670 --> 02:51:41,370
are defined by your personal relationship with them
是由你和他们的个人关系决定的

3976
02:51:41,370 --> 02:51:42,600
and that one was definitive.
那个是明确的

3977
02:51:42,600 --> 02:51:44,700
And I almost graduated to that one
我差点就毕业了

3978
02:51:44,700 --> 02:51:46,537
because for the longest time,
因为在很长一段时间里

3979
02:51:46,537 --> 02:51:51,360
"The Idiot" was my favorite book of all
《白痴》是我最喜欢的书

3980
02:51:51,360 --> 02:51:54,030
because I identified with the ideas
因为我认同这些想法

3981
02:51:54,030 --> 02:51:55,663
represented by Prince Myshkin.
由 Myshkin 王子代表

3982
02:51:55,663 --> 02:51:58,200
I also identified- - Ah, that's interesting.
我还发现了--啊 这很有趣

3983
02:51:58,200 --> 02:52:00,340
- To Prince Myshkin a human being.
-给 Myshkin 王子一个人

3984
02:52:00,340 --> 02:52:02,430
- The holy fool. - The fool, yeah,
-神圣的傻瓜 -傻瓜 是的

3985
02:52:02,430 --> 02:52:05,790
because the world kind of my whole life
因为这个世界是我的一生
3986
02:52:05,790 --> 02:52:08,670
still kind of saw me in my perception,
仍然在我的感知中看到了我

3987
02:52:08,670 --> 02:52:13,670
in my narrow perception as kind of the fool and I,
在我狭隘的认知中 我是个傻瓜

3988
02:52:15,649 --> 02:52:17,640
different from the interpretation
与解释不同

3989
02:52:17,640 --> 02:52:19,920
that a lot of people take of this book,
很多人都喜欢这本书

3990
02:52:19,920 --> 02:52:22,230
I see him as a kind of hero.
我把他视为某种英雄

3991
02:52:22,230 --> 02:52:25,258
- Oh, definitely. - To be a naive,
-哦 当然 -做一个天真的人

3992
02:52:25,258 --> 02:52:26,850
quote, unquote, fool,
引用 取消 傻瓜

3993
02:52:26,850 --> 02:52:29,880
but really just a naive optimist
但实际上只是一个天真的乐观主义者

3994
02:52:29,880 --> 02:52:31,860
and naive in the best possible way.
以最好的方式天真

3995
02:52:31,860 --> 02:52:34,620
I do believe that- - That's childlike.
我确实相信--那很孩子气

3996
02:52:34,620 --> 02:52:38,550
- Yeah. Childlike is a better, so naive is usually seen as-
-是的 孩子气更好 所以天真通常被视为-

3997
02:52:38,550 --> 02:52:39,780
- That's childish. Naive.
-那是幼稚的 天真

3998
02:52:39,780 --> 02:52:42,720
- Yeah. But childlike.
-是的 但是孩子般的

3999
02:52:42,720 --> 02:52:45,450
- That's why no one enters the kingdom of heaven
这就是为什么没有人进入天国

4000
02:52:45,450 --> 02:52:48,120
unless they become like a child.
除非他们变得像个孩子

4001
02:52:48,120 --> 02:52:49,320
That's Prince Myshkin.
那是梅什金王子

4002
02:52:49,320 --> 02:52:51,060
Dostoevsky knew that.
陀思妥耶夫斯基知道这一点

4003
02:52:51,060 --> 02:52:53,790
So that's why you liked "The Idiot." That's so interesting.
所以这就是你喜欢《白痴》的原因 这很有趣

4004
02:52:53,790 --> 02:52:55,500
See, I think I like "Crime and Punishment"
看 我想我喜欢《罪与罚》

4005
02:52:55,500 --> 02:52:57,330
because while you identified with Myshkin
因为虽然你认同梅什金

4006
02:52:57,330 --> 02:52:59,447
I think I identified more with Raskolnikov
我想我更认同拉斯柯尔尼科夫

4007
02:52:59,447 --> 02:53:02,589
'cause I was tempted by Luciferian intellect, you know,
因为我被卢西菲的智慧所诱惑 你知道

4008
02:53:02,589 --> 02:53:07,589
in a manner very similar to the manner he was tempted.
与他被诱惑的方式非常相似

4009
02:53:07,890 --> 02:53:10,620
But I mean, I think you can make a case
但我的意思是 我认为你可以提出一个理由

4010
02:53:10,620 --> 02:53:12,000
that "The Brothers Karamazov"
《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》

4011
02:53:12,000 --> 02:53:15,240
is Dostoevsky's crowning achievement.
是陀思妥耶夫斯基的最高成就

4012
02:53:15,240 --> 02:53:16,950
- Well. - And that's something, man.
-嗯 -这很了不起 伙计

4013
02:53:16,950 --> 02:53:18,603
He ruined literature for me.
他毁了我的文学

4014
02:53:19,461 --> 02:53:20,400
(Lex chuckles)
（莱克斯笑）

4015
02:53:20,400 --> 02:53:22,480
'Cause everything else just fell insipid afterwards.
因为后来其他一切都变得平淡无奇

4016
02:53:22,480 --> 02:53:23,743
- Yeah. - Not everything.
-是的 -不是一切

4017
02:53:23,743 --> 02:53:25,500
Not everything.
不是一切

4018
02:53:25,500 --> 02:53:30,030
I found some books that in my experience
我找到了一些书 以我的经验

4019
02:53:30,030 --> 02:53:31,927
hit that pinnacle.
达到顶峰

4020
02:53:31,927 --> 02:53:34,320
"The Master and Margarita."
“大师和玛格丽塔 ”

4021
02:53:34,320 --> 02:53:36,960
That's a deadly book. I've read that I think four times.
那是一本致命的书 我想我已经读了四遍了

4022
02:53:36,960 --> 02:53:40,113
And I still, there's still, it's unbelievably deep.
我仍然 仍然 它难以置信地深刻

4023
02:53:41,100 --> 02:53:43,473
There's a Nikos Kazantzakis, a Greek writer.
有一个尼科斯·卡赞察基斯 一个希腊作家

4024
02:53:44,460 --> 02:53:45,920
Some of his books are...
他的一些书是…

4025
02:53:46,980 --> 02:53:48,900
His writing is amazing as well.
他的写作也令人惊叹

4026
02:53:48,900 --> 02:53:50,910
- Did you ever connect with the literary
-你曾经和文学联系过吗

4027
02:53:50,910 --> 02:53:53,198
like existentialist Camus
比如存在主义者加缪

4028
02:53:53,198 --> 02:53:55,630
or people like Hermann Hesse
或者像赫尔曼·黑塞这样的人

4029
02:53:57,159 --> 02:53:58,887
or even Kafka? - Yeah.
甚至卡夫卡？-是的

4030
02:53:58,887 --> 02:54:00,420
- Did you ever connect with those?
-你曾经和那些联系过吗？

4031
02:54:00,420 --> 02:54:01,907
- To the same degree? - Yeah. To the same-
-程度相同？-是的 同样-

4032
02:54:01,907 --> 02:54:03,723
- Enough to be an influence.
-足以产生影响
4033
02:54:04,770 --> 02:54:08,400
You know, you have to be deaf in some fundamental sense
你知道 在某种基本意义上 你必须是聋子

4034
02:54:08,400 --> 02:54:11,100
not to encounter a great dead friend
而不是遇到一个伟大的死去的朋友

4035
02:54:11,100 --> 02:54:13,620
and fail to learn, you know?
而不去学习 你知道吗？

4036
02:54:13,620 --> 02:54:16,470
And I mean, I tried to separate the wheat from the chaff
我的意思是 我试图区分小麦和谷壳

4037
02:54:16,470 --> 02:54:19,530
when I read, you know, and I read all the great clinicians.
当我阅读时 你知道 我阅读了所有伟大的临床医生

4038
02:54:19,530 --> 02:54:21,273
All of them, perhaps not.
他们所有人 也许不是

4039
02:54:22,260 --> 02:54:25,350
Those who are foremost in the pantheon.
那些在万神殿中最重要的人

4040
02:54:25,350 --> 02:54:28,080
And I tried to pull out what I could and that was a lot.
我试图拿出我能拿出的东西 那是很多

4041
02:54:28,080 --> 02:54:29,400
I learned a lot from Freud.
我从弗洛伊德那里学到了很多

4042
02:54:29,400 --> 02:54:31,200
I learned a lot from Rogers.
我从罗杰斯那里学到了很多

4043
02:54:31,200 --> 02:54:32,490
And I learned a lot from, well,
我从 嗯

4044
02:54:32,490 --> 02:54:33,900
from Dostoevsky and Nietzsche.
从陀思妥耶夫斯基和尼采那里学到了很多

4045
02:54:33,900 --> 02:54:36,150
I'm gonna do a course on Dostoevsky and Nietzsche
我要做一门关于陀思妥耶夫斯基和尼采的课程

4046
02:54:36,150 --> 02:54:37,500
for this Peterson Academy.
为了这个彼得森学院

4047
02:54:37,500 --> 02:54:39,300
This is coming up in January.
这将在一月份出现

4048
02:54:39,300 --> 02:54:40,727
- Oh, that'll be them together.
-哦 那将是他们在一起

4049
02:54:40,727 --> 02:54:41,940
- [Jordan] I'm really looking forward to it.
-[·乔丹]我真的很期待

4050
02:54:41,940 --> 02:54:43,899
- You're weaving...
-你在编织…

4051
02:54:43,899 --> 02:54:45,720
- I hadn't thought about doing them together.
-我没想过一起做

4052
02:54:45,720 --> 02:54:46,830
- Oh. - That'd be fun.
-哦 -那会很有趣的

4053
02:54:46,830 --> 02:54:48,030
That's a good idea.
这是个好主意

4054
02:54:48,030 --> 02:54:49,196
- Well- - That'd be a good idea.
-嗯——这是个好主意

4055
02:54:49,196 --> 02:54:50,285
(Lex laughing)
（莱克斯笑了）

4056
02:54:50,285 --> 02:54:53,160
I'll steal that idea. - No. No. (laughing)
我会偷那个主意 -不 不 （笑）

4057
02:54:53,160 --> 02:54:55,470
You often weave them together really masterfully
你经常巧妙地把它们编织在一起

4058
02:54:55,470 --> 02:54:59,730
because there is religious
因为有宗教

4059
02:54:59,730 --> 02:55:02,100
in the broad sense of that word themes
在这个词的广义主题中

4060
02:55:02,100 --> 02:55:03,690
throughout the writing of both.
贯穿两者的写作

4061
02:55:03,690 --> 02:55:05,700
- Yeah, well, there is uncanny parallelisms
-是的 嗯 有不可思议的相似之处

4062
02:55:05,700 --> 02:55:07,920
in their writing and their lives.
在他们的写作和生活中

4063
02:55:07,920 --> 02:55:08,753
So.
所以

4064
02:55:10,235 --> 02:55:12,210
And Dostoevsky's deeper than Nietzsche
陀思妥耶夫斯基比尼采更深刻

4065
02:55:12,210 --> 02:55:14,861
but that's because he was a writer of fiction.
但那是因为他是个小说家

4066
02:55:14,861 --> 02:55:17,010
- Well, Nietzsche is almost a character
-嗯 尼采几乎是一个角色

4067
02:55:17,010 --> 02:55:18,090
in a Dostoevsky novel.
在陀思妥耶夫斯基的小说里
4068
02:55:18,090 --> 02:55:21,488
- He is definitely that. He is definitely that. Yes.
-他绝对是 他绝对是 是的

4069
02:55:21,488 --> 02:55:24,870
And apparently Nietzsche knew more about Dostoevsky
显然尼采对陀思妥耶夫斯基的了解更多

4070
02:55:24,870 --> 02:55:25,770
than people had thought.
比人们想象的要多

4071
02:55:25,770 --> 02:55:27,960
There's been some recent scholarship on that ground.
最近有一些关于这个的学术研究

4072
02:55:27,960 --> 02:55:29,790
Dostoevsky didn't know anything about Nietzsche
陀思妥耶夫斯基对尼采一无所知

4073
02:55:29,790 --> 02:55:30,853
as far as I know.
据我所知

4074
02:55:30,853 --> 02:55:32,370
I could be wrong about that.
我可能错了

4075
02:55:32,370 --> 02:55:35,340
But the thing that Dostoevsky had over Nietzsche
但是陀思妥耶夫斯基对尼采的看法

4076
02:55:35,340 --> 02:55:37,680
is Nietzsche had to make things propositional
尼采必须把事情变成命题

4077
02:55:37,680 --> 02:55:39,400
in some real sense, 'cause he was a philosopher
在某种真正的意义上 因为他是一个哲学家

4078
02:55:39,400 --> 02:55:42,450
and it's hard to propositionalize things
很难把事情命题化

4079
02:55:42,450 --> 02:55:46,410
that are outside your can, but you can characterize them.
超出你的能力范围 但你可以描述它们
4080
02:55:46,410 --> 02:55:49,016
And so in "The Brothers Karamazov"
所以在《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》中

4081
02:55:49,016 --> 02:55:54,016
Ivan is a more developed character than Alyosha.
伊凡比阿廖莎更成熟

4082
02:55:54,245 --> 02:55:58,110
In the explicit sense, he can make better arguments,
在明确的意义上 他可以提出更好的论点

4083
02:55:58,110 --> 02:56:01,320
but Alyosha wins like Myshkin
但是阿辽沙赢了 就像梅什金一样

4084
02:56:01,320 --> 02:56:02,910
because he's the better man.
因为他是更好的人

4085
02:56:02,910 --> 02:56:05,853
and Dostoevsky can show that in the actions.
陀思妥耶夫斯基可以在行动中证明这一点

4086
02:56:06,900 --> 02:56:08,850
He can't render it entirely propositional,
他不能完全用命题来表达

4087
02:56:08,850 --> 02:56:10,290
but that's probably because what's good
但那可能是因为什么是好的

4088
02:56:10,290 --> 02:56:12,120
can't be rendered entirely proposition.
不能完全用命题来表达

4089
02:56:12,120 --> 02:56:15,120
And so Dostoevsky had that edge over Nietzsche.
所以陀思妥耶夫斯基比尼采更有优势

4090
02:56:15,120 --> 02:56:18,166
Well, Ivan is this brilliant rationalist atheist,
嗯 伊凡是一个杰出的理性主义无神论者

4091
02:56:18,166 --> 02:56:22,140
materialist, and puts forward an argument on that front
唯物主义者 并在这方面提出了一个论点

4092
02:56:22,140 --> 02:56:25,080
that's still unparalleled as far as I'm concerned,
就我而言 这仍然是无与伦比的

4093
02:56:25,080 --> 02:56:28,050
and overwhelms Alyosha who cannot respond,
压倒了无法回应的阿辽沙

4094
02:56:28,050 --> 02:56:30,910
but Alyosha is still the better man.
但是阿辽沙仍然是更好的人

4095
02:56:30,910 --> 02:56:32,542
Which is very interesting, you know?
这很有趣 你知道吗？

4096
02:56:32,542 --> 02:56:34,695
- Well, you know the funny thing about
-嗯 你知道有趣的是

4097
02:56:34,695 --> 02:56:37,830
those two characters is you, Jordan Peterson,
这两个角色就是你 乔丹·彼得森

4098
02:56:37,830 --> 02:56:40,590
seem to be somebody that at least in part
似乎是一个人 至少在一定程度上

4099
02:56:40,590 --> 02:56:44,760
embodies both because you are one of the intellectuals
体现了两者 因为你是知识分子之一

4100
02:56:44,760 --> 02:56:47,850
of our time, rigorous and thought,
我们这个时代的 严谨和思想

4101
02:56:47,850 --> 02:56:51,480
but also are able to have that kind of,
但也能够拥有那种

4102
02:56:51,480 --> 02:56:52,800
what would you describe?
你会描述什么？

4103
02:56:52,800 --> 02:56:56,970
If you remove the religiosity of Alyosha,
如果你去掉阿约沙的宗教信仰

4104
02:56:56,970 --> 02:56:59,760
there's what's a good word?
有什么好词？

4105
02:56:59,760 --> 02:57:03,000
Love towards the world. - Spirit of encouragement.
对世界的爱 -鼓励的精神

4106
02:57:03,000 --> 02:57:04,200
- Yes. (laughing) Hmm.
-是的 （笑）嗯

4107
02:57:04,200 --> 02:57:05,807
Yeah, well, it's, you know,
是的 嗯 这是 你知道

4108
02:57:05,807 --> 02:57:08,850
one of the things I did learn perhaps
也许我确实学到了一件事

4109
02:57:08,850 --> 02:57:10,260
from looking into the abyss
从观察深渊

4110
02:57:10,260 --> 02:57:13,530
to the degree that I have had to,
在某种程度上 我不得不

4111
02:57:13,530 --> 02:57:17,400
or was willing to was that at some level
或者愿意

4112
02:57:17,400 --> 02:57:20,580
you have to make a fundamental statement of faith.
你必须做出一个基本的信仰声明

4113
02:57:20,580 --> 02:57:23,100
When God creates the world after each day,
当上帝在每一天之后创造世界时

4114
02:57:23,100 --> 02:57:25,683
he says he saw that it was good.
他说他看到它是好的

4115
02:57:26,610 --> 02:57:28,170
You think, well, is it good?
你想 嗯 它好吗？

4116
02:57:28,170 --> 02:57:29,970
It's like, well, there's a tough question.
就像 嗯 有一个棘手的问题

4117
02:57:29,970 --> 02:57:31,830
I mean, you know, do you wanna bring a child
我是说 你知道 你想带一个孩子

4118
02:57:31,830 --> 02:57:33,272
into a world such as this,
进入这样一个世界

4119
02:57:33,272 --> 02:57:36,393
which is a fundamental question of whether or not it's good.
这是一个关于它是否好的基本问题

4120
02:57:38,100 --> 02:57:40,733
It's an act of faith to declare that it's good
宣布它是好的是一种信念行为

4121
02:57:40,733 --> 02:57:43,233
because the evidence is ambivalent.
因为证据是矛盾的

4122
02:57:44,460 --> 02:57:45,600
- Yeah. - And so then you think,
-是的 -然后你想

4123
02:57:45,600 --> 02:57:46,443
okay, well,
好吧 好吧

4124
02:57:47,970 --> 02:57:49,563
am I gonna act as if it's good?
我要假装它是好的吗？

4125
02:57:50,907 --> 02:57:53,370
And what would happen if I did?
如果我这样做了会发生什么？

4126
02:57:53,370 --> 02:57:56,973
And maybe the answer to that is I think this is the answer.
也许答案是我认为这就是答案
4127
02:58:03,690 --> 02:58:08,370
The more you act out the proposition that it's good,
你越是表现出它是好的

4128
02:58:08,370 --> 02:58:09,423
the better it gets.
它就越好

4129
02:58:11,308 --> 02:58:14,820
Dostoevsky said this is something else.
陀思妥耶夫斯基说这是另一回事

4130
02:58:14,820 --> 02:58:17,700
Every man is not only responsible for everything he does,
每个人不仅要对他所做的一切负责

4131
02:58:17,700 --> 02:58:20,130
but for everything everyone else does.
还要对其他人所做的一切负责

4132
02:58:20,130 --> 02:58:24,990
It's like, what, is that profound or are you just insane?
就像 什么 这是深刻的还是你只是疯了？

4133
02:58:24,990 --> 02:58:25,823
Then you think
然后你想

4134
02:58:27,720 --> 02:58:30,783
is what you receive back proportionate to what you deliver?
你得到的回报和你交付的成正比吗？

4135
02:58:31,920 --> 02:58:34,380
And the answer to that might be yes.
答案可能是肯定的

4136
02:58:34,380 --> 02:58:36,750
That's a terrifying idea, man.
这是一个可怕的想法 伙计

4137
02:58:36,750 --> 02:58:37,583
And it's certainly,
这当然是

4138
02:58:37,583 --> 02:58:39,300
you can see that it's true in some sense,
你可以看到在某种意义上这是真的
4139
02:58:39,300 --> 02:58:43,650
because people certainly respond to you
因为人们肯定会回应你

4140
02:58:43,650 --> 02:58:45,630
in kind with how you treat them.
就像你对待他们的方式一样

4141
02:58:45,630 --> 02:58:46,830
That's certainly the case.
情况确实如此

4142
02:58:46,830 --> 02:58:49,680
- I mean, it's terrifying and it's exciting.
-我是说 这很可怕 也很令人兴奋

4143
02:58:49,680 --> 02:58:50,640
- Yeah. Right? (Lex chuckles)
-是的 对吧？（莱克斯笑）

4144
02:58:50,640 --> 02:58:52,860
But that's an adventure, isn't it?
但这是一次冒险 不是吗？

4145
02:58:52,860 --> 02:58:55,293
- You, yeah.
-你 是的

4146
02:58:56,310 --> 02:59:00,720
You create the world by the way you live it.
你通过你生活的方式创造世界

4147
02:59:00,720 --> 02:59:03,390
The world you experience is defined
你所经历的世界是被定义的

4148
02:59:03,390 --> 02:59:04,620
by the way you live that world.
由你生活在那个世界的方式决定的

4149
02:59:04,620 --> 02:59:06,870
And that's really interesting.
这真的很有趣

4150
02:59:06,870 --> 02:59:08,430
And then taken as a collective,
然后作为一个集体

4151
02:59:08,430 --> 02:59:10,410
we create the world together in that way.
我们以这种方式一起创造世界

4152
02:59:10,410 --> 02:59:11,490
- Yeah. - What do you think
-是的 -你怎么想

4153
02:59:11,490 --> 02:59:12,870
is the meaning of it all?
这一切的意义是什么？

4154
02:59:12,870 --> 02:59:15,653
What's the meaning of life, Jordan Peterson?
生命的意义是什么 乔丹·彼得森？

4155
02:59:15,653 --> 02:59:18,120
We've defined it many, many times
我们已经定义了很多很多次

4156
02:59:18,120 --> 02:59:18,953
throughout this conversation
在整个谈话中

4157
02:59:18,953 --> 02:59:21,033
- It's the adventure along the route, man.
-这是沿途的冒险 伙计

4158
02:59:22,380 --> 02:59:27,000
And I would say where's that adventure to be found?
我会说在哪里可以找到这种冒险？

4159
02:59:27,000 --> 02:59:28,230
In faith.
信仰

4160
02:59:28,230 --> 02:59:29,850
What's the faith?
信仰是什么？

4161
02:59:29,850 --> 02:59:32,883
The highest failure is love and truth is it's hand maiden.
最大的失败是爱和真理是它的手少女

4162
02:59:35,130 --> 02:59:36,647
That's a statement of faith. Right?
这是信仰的声明 对吗？

4163
02:59:36,647 --> 02:59:38,343
'Cause you can't tell.
因为你不知道

4164
02:59:39,600 --> 02:59:42,870
You have to act it out to see if it's true.
你必须表演出来看看这是不是真的

4165
02:59:42,870 --> 02:59:44,850
- Yeah. - And so you can't
-是的 -所以你不能

4166
02:59:44,850 --> 02:59:47,910
even find out without, and that's so peculiar.
甚至没有发现 这太奇怪了

4167
02:59:47,910 --> 02:59:50,400
You have to make the commitment a priory.
你必须把承诺变成一个修道院

4168
02:59:50,400 --> 02:59:51,660
- Yeah. - It's like a marriage.
-是的 -就像婚姻

4169
02:59:51,660 --> 02:59:52,743
It's the same thing.
这是一回事

4170
02:59:53,665 --> 02:59:56,320
It's like, well, is this the person for me?
就像 嗯 这是适合我的人吗？

4171
02:59:56,320 --> 02:59:58,083
Well, that's the wrong question.
嗯 这是错误的问题

4172
02:59:58,982 --> 03:00:01,833
How do I find out if this is the person for me?
我怎么知道这是不是适合我的人？

4173
03:00:03,000 --> 03:00:05,253
By binding myself to them.
把自己和他们绑在一起

4174
03:00:07,170 --> 03:00:09,300
Well, maybe the same thing's true of life. Right?
嗯 也许生活也是如此 对吗？

4175
03:00:09,300 --> 03:00:10,683
You bind yourself to it.
你把自己绑在上面

4176
03:00:11,550 --> 03:00:13,070
And the tighter you bind yourself to it,
你把自己绑得越紧

4177
03:00:13,070 --> 03:00:15,630
the more you find out what it is,
你越发现它是什么

4178
03:00:15,630 --> 03:00:18,030
and that's like a radical embrace.
这就像一个激进的拥抱

4179
03:00:18,030 --> 03:00:20,010
And it's a really radical embrace.
这是一个非常激进的拥抱

4180
03:00:20,010 --> 03:00:21,300
That's the crucifix symbol.
那是十字架的象征

4181
03:00:21,300 --> 03:00:23,070
And more than that, because like I said,
更重要的是 因为就像我说的

4182
03:00:23,070 --> 03:00:27,120
the full passion story isn't death.
完整的激情故事不是死亡

4183
03:00:27,120 --> 03:00:29,280
It isn't even unjust death.
它甚至不是不公正的死亡

4184
03:00:29,280 --> 03:00:31,024
It isn't even unjust death
它甚至不是不公正的死亡

4185
03:00:31,024 --> 03:00:34,140
and the crucifixion of the innocent,
以及无辜者的受难
4186
03:00:34,140 --> 03:00:36,420
which is really getting pretty bad.
这真的变得非常糟糕

4187
03:00:36,420 --> 03:00:40,650
It's unjust, torturous,
这是不公正的 折磨人的

4188
03:00:40,650 --> 03:00:42,609
innocent death
无辜的死亡

4189
03:00:42,609 --> 03:00:47,433
attendant upon betrayal and tyranny followed by hell.
伴随着背叛和暴政 然后是地狱

4190
03:00:48,330 --> 03:00:51,480
Well, that's a hell of a thing to radically embrace.
嗯 这是一个需要彻底拥抱的地狱

4191
03:00:51,480 --> 03:00:52,683
It's like bring it on.
就像带来它

4192
03:00:54,210 --> 03:00:58,770
- I think a lot of people put truth as the highest ideal,
-我认为很多人把真理作为最高理想

4193
03:00:58,770 --> 03:01:03,770
and think that can get to that ideal
认为可以达到那个理想

4194
03:01:03,780 --> 03:01:05,940
while living in a place of cynicism
同时生活在一个愤世嫉俗的地方

4195
03:01:05,940 --> 03:01:07,770
and ultimately escape from life
最终逃离生活

4196
03:01:07,770 --> 03:01:09,930
and hiding from life, afraid of life.
逃避生活 害怕生活

4197
03:01:09,930 --> 03:01:12,750
And it's is beautifully put that
这是一个美丽的说法
4198
03:01:12,750 --> 03:01:16,920
love is the highest ideal to reach for.
爱是最高的理想

4199
03:01:16,920 --> 03:01:19,109
And truth is- - It's handmaiden.
事实是——它是侍女

4200
03:01:19,109 --> 03:01:21,090
I thought about that for a long time, right?
我想了很久 对吗？

4201
03:01:21,090 --> 03:01:23,040
This hierarchy of ideal.
理想的等级制度

4202
03:01:23,040 --> 03:01:25,140
And the thing about truth, that bitter truth,
关于真理的事情 痛苦的真理

4203
03:01:25,140 --> 03:01:27,180
let's say, that cynical truth is
比方说 愤世嫉俗的真理是

4204
03:01:27,180 --> 03:01:31,170
it can break the shackles of naivety.
它可以打破天真的枷锁

4205
03:01:31,170 --> 03:01:36,170
And actually a burnt cynicism is a moral improvement
实际上 燃烧的愤世嫉俗是一种道德进步

4206
03:01:36,810 --> 03:01:38,943
over a blind naivety,
超越盲目的天真

4207
03:01:39,930 --> 03:01:42,570
even though one is in some ways positive,
即使一个人在某些方面是积极的

4208
03:01:42,570 --> 03:01:44,250
but only because it's protected.
但只是因为它受到保护

4209
03:01:44,250 --> 03:01:48,090
And the other is bitter and dark, but still better.
另一个是痛苦和黑暗的 但仍然更好

4210
03:01:48,090 --> 03:01:49,530
But you're not done at that point.
但你还没有完成

4211
03:01:49,530 --> 03:01:51,360
You're just barely started.
你才刚刚开始

4212
03:01:51,360 --> 03:01:53,130
It's like you're cynical?
好像你很愤世嫉俗？

4213
03:01:53,130 --> 03:01:54,513
You're not cynical enough.
你还不够愤世嫉俗

4214
03:01:55,530 --> 03:01:57,090
It's like how cynical are you?
就像你有多愤世嫉俗？

4215
03:01:57,090 --> 03:02:00,993
Are you I'm an Auschwitz prison guard level of cynical?
你我是奥斯威辛监狱看守级别的愤世嫉俗吗？

4216
03:02:02,012 --> 03:02:05,610
'Cause you have to go down pretty deep into the weeds
因为你必须深入杂草中

4217
03:02:05,610 --> 03:02:07,230
before you find that part of you,
在你找到你的那一部分之前

4218
03:02:07,230 --> 03:02:09,480
but you can find it if you want.
但如果你愿意 你可以找到它

4219
03:02:09,480 --> 03:02:11,853
And then you think, well, I wanna stop this.
然后你想 嗯 我想停止这一切

4220
03:02:13,080 --> 03:02:15,090
Well, that was the question you posed in some sense,
嗯 这是你在某种意义上提出的问题

4221
03:02:15,090 --> 03:02:16,378
you're obsessed with say what happened
你痴迷于说出发生了什么

4222
03:02:16,378 --> 03:02:19,899
on these mass scale catastrophes
在这些大规模灾难中

4223
03:02:19,899 --> 03:02:21,390
in the communist countries.
在共产主义国家

4224
03:02:21,390 --> 03:02:24,813
It's like, well, millions of people participated.
就像 嗯 数百万人参与其中

4225
03:02:25,830 --> 03:02:29,010
So you could've, and maybe you would've enjoyed it.
所以你可以 也许你会喜欢它

4226
03:02:29,010 --> 03:02:30,593
So what part of that is you?
那么你是其中的哪一部分？

4227
03:02:30,593 --> 03:02:33,483
And you can find it if you want.
如果你愿意 你可以找到它

4228
03:02:34,830 --> 03:02:36,210
- Yeah. It's all there.
-是的 都在那里

4229
03:02:36,210 --> 03:02:38,910
The prisoner, the interrogator.
囚犯 审讯者

4230
03:02:38,910 --> 03:02:41,010
- [Jordan] The Judas. (Lex laughing)
-[·乔丹]犹大 （莱克斯笑了）

4231
03:02:41,010 --> 03:02:43,320
Pontius pilot. - All of it.
庞蒂乌斯飞行员 -所有的一切

4232
03:02:43,320 --> 03:02:44,850
- All of it. - And it's all of it
-所有的一切 -这就是所有的一切

4233
03:02:44,850 --> 03:02:46,890
is inside us. - Yeah.
在我们内心 -是的

4234
03:02:46,890 --> 03:02:49,860
- And you just have to look and once you do,
-你只需要看 一旦你看了

4235
03:02:49,860 --> 03:02:52,710
maybe eventually you can find the love.
也许最终你能找到爱

4236
03:02:52,710 --> 03:02:54,630
Jordan, you're an incredible human being.
乔丹 你是一个不可思议的人

4237
03:02:54,630 --> 03:02:57,030
I'm deeply honored that you would talk to me.
我非常荣幸你能和我说话

4238
03:02:57,030 --> 03:02:59,760
Thank you for being a truth seeker in this world,
谢谢你在这个世界上寻求真理

4239
03:02:59,760 --> 03:03:01,560
and thank you for the love.
谢谢你的爱

4240
03:03:01,560 --> 03:03:04,664
- Hey, thanks for the invitation, man.
-嘿 谢谢你的邀请 伙计

4241
03:03:04,664 --> 03:03:06,660
- Thanks for listening to this conversation
-感谢收听这段对话

4242
03:03:06,660 --> 03:03:07,890
with Jordan Peterson.
与乔丹·彼得森

4243
03:03:07,890 --> 03:03:09,120
To support this podcast,
为了支持这个播客

4244
03:03:09,120 --> 03:03:11,700
please check out our sponsors in the description.
请在描述中查看我们的赞助商
4245
03:03:11,700 --> 03:03:13,770
And now let me leave you with some words
现在让我给你们留下一些话

4246
03:03:13,770 --> 03:03:15,020
from Friedrich Nietzsche.
来自弗里德里希·尼采

4247
03:03:16,027 --> 03:03:18,180
"You must have chaos within you
“你内心一定有混乱

4248
03:03:18,180 --> 03:03:20,547
to give birth to a dancing star."
生一个舞蹈明星 ”

4249
03:03:21,540 --> 03:03:24,633
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
谢谢你的倾听 希望下次能见到你